From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue May  1 00:40:06 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 00:40:06 -0000
Subject: Minerva the Cat
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010430153659.00d28f00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cl0l6+hvf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17938

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> The movie _Our Miss Brookes_ is on right now.
> In it is a cat named Minerva.  Have I discovered
> an ulterior motive for McGonnegal's first name?  :)
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave

Good one!  Could be.  I always thought she was just named after the 
Goddess of Wisdom, but the fact that she is a cat, too...

Aren't we all so academic here?  :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw******************************************




From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 00:46:04 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 00:46:04 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Privet Drive (was Summary thoughts)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F121BYJgrPWSMu00001b65@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17939

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
>
>Could Privet Drive be in one of those iron-fenced "mini-Azkaban"
>communities where you have to give the guards your full name,
>occupation, and maiden name of your second cousin's dental
>hygenist before they let you in?  (Of course I'm not sure they
>have those in the UK...)

Not too many - but then, who needs guards with Aunt Petunia twitching those 
net curtains?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 02:13:28 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:13:28 -0000
Subject: Sneakoscope (was: Harry: his wealth, his scar, his prodigious talents)
In-Reply-To: <9ckp89+840h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cl648+g91v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17940

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> Morag Traynor wrote:
> 
> > Interesting how the gifts reflect the givers <snippitty, snip, 
> snip> Ron's gift is suspicion, but then it probably doesn't work 
> anyway>
> 
> Oh, but I think it really does work. Ron says it went off when he 
was 
> at dinner the night he wrote Harry's birthday letter (maybe 
Pettigrew 
> was in Ron's pocket?)  It also fires up when Harry, Hermione, and 
Ron 
> first enter the train compartment.  Scabbers/Pettigrew was there at 
> the time.  It goes off in Harry and Ron's dormitory during 
Christmas--
> again Scabbers was there, too.
> 
> Methinks that Harry ought to pay attention to the Sneakoscope.
> 
> Trina, who refuses to call H, H, & R a "troika" on the grounds it 
> makes them sound like a balalaika band.


The Sneakoscope most definitely does work.  It is delicious how JKR 
uses the ambiguity of its alarm in the course of PoA.

Haggridd




From editor at texas.net  Tue May  1 02:21:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:21:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are the Scots? Was Interim Report Re: HP on  Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
References: <LAW2-F6Plu4kAcCd4D7000087c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AEE1D97.427E1788@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17941

Morag Traynor wrote:

> To my Scottish ears, a Scottish accent is not comical, either! :)  I
> wonder if Star Trek's Scotty has a lot to answer for?  *His* accent
> sounded *extremely* comical to British ears.

Scrooge McDuck. Considering him with Scotty, I'm amazed you guys get any
credibility at all.....

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 02:23:28 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:23:28 -0000
Subject: A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.
In-Reply-To: <9ck769+2si4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cl6n0+4s8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17942

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggonmyhead at h... wrote:
> I am new to this board - so hello everyone.
> 
> This is a pet theory I have been harbouring for some time, and have 
> tried out on a few people and developed.  Basically it is an 
> explanation for those who insist on believing that J.K. Rowling must 
> have got her ideas from somewhere.  Basically, my problem is that we 
> are never told how the muggle killings that characterised voldemorts 
> reign were explained - memory charms cannot surely destroy memories 
> of loved ones.  My idea is that as the muggle prime minister is in 
> contact with the minister for magic, the magic minister (mm) aranged 
> with the prime inister (pm) so that all the troubles in northern 
> Ieland of the seventies and eighties were invented - therefore any 
> killing was as a result of magic - and the troubles were invented as 
> an excuse - to stop any muggles getting suspicious.  The few 
> terrorist activitis were commited by death eaters - unwilling to 
> admit defeat - the recent rise of voldemort would explain the recent 
> upsurge in terrorist activity.
> 
> Make of it what you will - I rather like it.

I like it too, t.g.  The chronology fits within that of the canon, and 
the unexplained bombongs leave the possibility open.

Haggridd




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue May  1 02:32:41 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:32:41 -0000
Subject: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <9casqd+j74q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cl789+kdme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17943

I like Stephen Fry's version.

I have listened to all the tapes (Fry and Dale) more than once.

I hope that people will give Dale a chance....comparisons are odious, 
but Dale does a wonderful, wonderful job with the stories....

Many a person has told me that they did NOT like CoS until they
heard Dale read it.

Susan




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 02:33:08 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:33:08 -0000
Subject: Where are the Scots? Was Interim Report Re: HP on  Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <3AEE1D97.427E1788@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cl794+ih4j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17944

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Morag Traynor wrote:
> 
> > To my Scottish ears, a Scottish accent is not comical, either! :) 
 I
> > wonder if Star Trek's Scotty has a lot to answer for?  *His* 
accent
> > sounded *extremely* comical to British ears.
> 
> Scrooge McDuck. Considering him with Scotty, I'm amazed you guys get 
any
> credibility at all.....
> 
> --Amanda
> 
Hey, what is so comical about Uncle Scrooge?  I wish that I had a 
Money Bin! 

Haggridd




From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 02:34:30 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:34:30 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sneakoscope (was: Harry: his wealth, his scar, his prodigious talents)
Message-ID: <F273FVNW6RpniKnrzj100006de0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17945

>From: "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sneakoscope (was: Harry: his wealth, his scar, 
>his prodigious talents)
>Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:13:28 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> > Morag Traynor wrote:
> >
> > > Interesting how the gifts reflect the givers <snippitty, snip,
> > snip> Ron's gift is suspicion, but then it probably doesn't work
> > anyway>
> >
> > Oh, but I think it really does work. Ron says it went off when he
>was
> > at dinner the night he wrote Harry's birthday letter (maybe
>Pettigrew
> > was in Ron's pocket?)  It also fires up when Harry, Hermione, and
>Ron
> > first enter the train compartment.  Scabbers/Pettigrew was there at
> > the time.  It goes off in Harry and Ron's dormitory during
>Christmas--
> > again Scabbers was there, too.
> >
> > Methinks that Harry ought to pay attention to the Sneakoscope.
> >
> > Trina, who refuses to call H, H, & R a "troika" on the grounds it
> > makes them sound like a balalaika band.
>
>
>The Sneakoscope most definitely does work.  It is delicious how JKR
>uses the ambiguity of its alarm in the course of PoA.
>
>Haggridd

Also, consider in GOF. The FAKE Mad Eye Moody had a bunch of them in his 
office. Maybe he broke them himself to keep them from alerting others to HIS 
... um.. impersonation? What exactly sets one off, anyway?


Cait

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 02:37:43 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:37:43 -0000
Subject: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <9cl789+kdme@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cl7hn+6872@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17946

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> I like Stephen Fry's version.
> 
> I have listened to all the tapes (Fry and Dale) more than once.
> 
> I hope that people will give Dale a chance....comparisons are 
odious, 
> but Dale does a wonderful, wonderful job with the stories....
> 
> Many a person has told me that they did NOT like CoS until they
> heard Dale read it.
> 
> Susan

I am so happy to meet another who has heard both versions!  I am still 
in PS on the Fry version.  You already know my opinions so far.  I 
look forward to the rest of the books.

Haggridd




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May  1 02:38:06 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:38:06 -0000
Subject: Summary thoughts
In-Reply-To: <3AEDBB5D.44AE6537@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9cl7ie+p9o8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17947

Pam
"This brings to mind a related question:  Where exactly did Ron go to 
use the telephone?   Was it the one in the village?  I seem to 
remember there being reference to a phone in Ottery-St. Catchpole.  
Didn't Molly use it to call for muggle taxis or something in GoF?  If 
so, Ron could have asked his mother, maybe.   But he must have been 
quite a sight, shouting at the top of his lungs and must have called 
attention to himself."

--At first I thought that perhaps in his fascination for Muggles 
Arthur might have gotten a telephone for the Burrow, but on second 
thought I'm not sure that this is possible. We know things like 
phones and computers don't work at Hogwarts, but IIRC that doesn't 
mean they don't/wouldn't work in a typical wizarding home. 

If not then I can just see Ron in Ottery St. Catchpole, screaming 
into the phone and having everyone give him funy looks whilst 
thinking it's perfectly normal... :-)

Scott




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 02:45:34 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:45:34 -0000
Subject: Sneakoscope (was: Harry: his wealth, his scar, his prodigious talents)
In-Reply-To: <F273FVNW6RpniKnrzj100006de0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cl80e+46ho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17948

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cait Hunter" <kiary91 at h...> wrote:
> >From: "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...>
> >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sneakoscope (was: Harry: his wealth, 
his scar, 
> >his prodigious talents
> >The Sneakoscope most definitely does work.  It is delicious how JKR
> >uses the ambiguity of its alarm in the course of PoA.
> >
> >Haggridd
> 
> Also, consider in GOF. The FAKE Mad Eye Moody had a bunch of them in 
his 
> office. Maybe he broke them himself to keep them from alerting 
others to HIS 
> ... um.. impersonation? What exactly sets one off, anyway?
> 
> 
> Cait

It is deception of any kind that sets off te sneakosocpe, is it not?

hagridd
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue May  1 03:02:20 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 03:02:20 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420100242.00bef520@vquill.com>
Message-ID: <9cl8vs+cckn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17949

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Katie Kearns <katie at v...> wrote:
> At 08:23 AM 4/19/01 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >And I don't think the actor looks the way I think Dumbledore should
> >look. But again, my opinion could change once I see the movie. I'm 
just
> >judging everything off of appearence and what I happen to know of 
the
> >actor (which is virtually nothing).
> >
> ><grin> I still can't wait to see the movie, though, I'm just being
> >nitpicky!
> >
> >~Amber
> 
> I agree.  His beard should be whiter, fluffier and more neatly 
trimmed, I 
> think. Or something. He should look rather presentable, instead of 
a bit dingy.
> 



Oh, goodness, I couldn't disagree more..I loved Richard Harris in 
Camelot. I was quite worried when he seemed not very interested in 
the part of Albus Dumbledore (he who is the character with whom I 
identify most)...but THEN..I read that his granddaughter was most 
excited about his role as AD..I knew then he would put his heart into 
it...

Remember...that one of the Weasleys (Ron?) blithely says that oh yes, 
Dumbledore is quite mad, oh yes...certainly such a person would not 
have a neatly trimmed..beard..and he is how old? 160? 

Susan
> -Katie




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May  1 03:07:22 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 03:07:22 -0000
Subject: The Foe Glass
In-Reply-To: <F273FVNW6RpniKnrzj100006de0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cl99a+86av@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17950

Cait wrote:
Also, consider in GOF. The FAKE Mad Eye Moody had a bunch of them in 
his office. Maybe he broke them himself to keep them from alerting 
others to HIS... um.. impersonation? What exactly sets one off, 
anyway?"

--Which brings up something that I've been meaning to ask...Was the 
Foe Glass supposed to be a clue? How you say? I'm not entirely sure 
but I'd think that it wouldn't have shown all those misty shapes 
(which turned out to be Dumbley, Snape, and MaGonagall) if it had 
been the real Mad-Eye since non of these people are his enemies. 
Right?

Then again maybe he would just have seen the shadows of others like 
Karkaroff, Draco (?) and others...

Did I pick up on something or was it just a red herring?

Scott




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May  1 03:20:35 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 03:20:35 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <9cl8vs+cckn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cla23+ka7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17951

Susan wrote:
"Oh, goodness, I couldn't disagree more..I loved Richard Harris in 
Camelot. I was quite worried when he seemed not very interested in 
the part of Albus Dumbledore (he who is the character with whom I 
identify most)...but THEN..I read that his granddaughter was most 
excited about his role as AD..I knew then he would put his heart into 
it...
 
"Remember...that one of the Weasleys (Ron?) blithely says that oh 
yes, 
Dumbledore is quite mad, oh yes...certainly such a person would not 
have a neatly trimmed..beard..and he is how old? 160?"

--150. Yes I agree that Richard Harris looks perfect as Dumbledore, 
though I'll pass judgement on his acting when the film comes out. His 
beard is just the right length, and very Merlin-esque. As for his 
being a bit mad, well he is, but then aren't most good teachers?

Scott





From catlady at wicca.net  Tue May  1 03:44:31 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:44:31 -0700
Subject: Owls (was "First" chapter) - Platform 9.75  
Message-ID: <3AEE311E.63E2910F@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 17952

Andrew Preston's questions after his PoA chapters summary included:

> 5) Where did the owls meet up at? Do they have a central office?
> 6) Can you hire more owls to deliver heavy packages? Why didn't
> Ron, with his newfound wealth?

After Ron and Hermione visit Hogsmeade, they tell Harry: "The post
office, Harry! About two hundred owls, all sitting on shelves, all
color-coded depending on how fast you want your letter to get there!"

Later Invisible!Harry visits it for himself: "They went to the post
office; Ron pretended to be checking the price of an owl to Bill in
Egypt so that Harry could have a good look around. The owls sat hooting
softly down at him, at least three hundred of them; from Great Grays
right down to tiny little Scops owls ("Local Deliveries Only"), which
were so small they could have sat in the palm of Harry's hand."

Jen (jenfold) wrote:
> However I don't think the train runs to Hogsmeade at
> other times of the year. For example when Hagrid is
> going to the ministry in London about Buckbeak he
> has to take the Knightbus.

Maybe a train runs regularly between Hogsmeade and London (either a
Local, which stops everywhere, or a Limited Express, which stops at all
major stations, but not a Hogsmeade Express that doesn't make any other
stops en route) but Hipppgriffs are not allowed on wizarding trains.

Mecki wrote:
> In Ps one of the Weasley's ( I forgot who), asked
> another<g> "which platform doeas the train go?(or similiar).
> This indicates IMHO that there are more wizard plattforms
> on King's Cross.

It was Mrs. Weasley asking Ginny. This is one way that parents model
speech, teach their children facts, and teach their children manners, by
asking questions to which the parent already knows the answer (and it
gives the child a nice feeling of competence if the child also knows the
answer). Ginny at that time was ten years old and maybe too old for that
technique, but maybe Molly had spent so long with babies that she can't
get out of the habit.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 04:04:32 2001
From: child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com (child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 04:04:32 -0000
Subject: Here's a very strange thought I had about  Dumbledore and Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <3AC878DC.EAF281CB@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9clckg+cdk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17953

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > (I did consider whether Dumbledore could be related to Voldemort's
> > mother, but she is descended from Slytherin and Dumbledore is a
> > Gryffindor, so this again seems very unlikely.)
> 
> Has JKR said in a chat or someplace that Dumbledore was a 
Gryffindor?
> 
> And the houses are just that, houses at a school. It doesn't 
dictate all
> your social interactions in the future. Intermarrying does happen, 
and
> there can be members of more than one house in one family.
> 
> --Amanda


Yes, Dumbledore was in Gryffindor. It was stated by Hermione on the 
train to Hogwarts (SS/PS). She said something along the lines 
of, "...Gryffindor seems by far the best. Dumbledore himself was in 
Gryffindor..." (I don't have the book with me now, but that's 
basically what she said.)

JK Rowling has told us Dumbledore was a Gryffindor in several 
interviews, too.

I'm pretty sure Dumbledore is not related to Riddle. He said 
Voldermort was the last remaining decendant of Salazar Slytherin. On 
the other hand, you would need information from someone other than 
Dumbledore to really trust his words. If he really was related to 
Riddle I don't think he'd want students gossiping about it. You could 
make the argument that he was lying about Riddle's family.

Icicle,
Webmstrss. of The Hogwarts Tower of Time
http://www.geocities.com/child_of_rain_1999






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May  1 08:48:15 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 08:48:15 -0000
Subject: Question re: Nearly Headless Nick
Message-ID: <9clt8f+ldt4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17954

I have searched the archives for an answer to this, and can't find 
one, but I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned before, so 
apologies if I've just missed it.

In CoS, is Nearly Headless Nick revived?  I can't see how he could 
be, because he wouldn't be able to take the mandrake potion.  I've 
also realised that I can't find a reference to him in any either PoA 
or GoF.  Does this mean that he is still petrified?

Has JKR deliberately ignored solving this particular problem, as she 
doesn't know how to?  In which case, why didn't she not have him see 
the Basilisk in the first place?  He could have been facing Justin 
Fitch-Fletchley and not the Basilisk, and JFF would still be 
petrified and not dead.

Or is it just a Flint?

If someone could point me in the right direction, I would be 
grateful.  I know it is off-topic, but I have been wondering about it 
for a while.

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May  1 08:52:31 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 08:52:31 -0000
Subject: Question re: Nearly Headless Nick
In-Reply-To: <9clt8f+ldt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cltgf+h59i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17955

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> I have searched the archives for an answer to this, and can't find 
> one, but I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned before, so 
> apologies if I've just missed it.
> 
> In CoS, is Nearly Headless Nick revived?  I can't see how he could 
> be, because he wouldn't be able to take the mandrake potion.  I've 
> also realised that I can't find a reference to him in any either 
PoA 
> or GoF.  Does this mean that he is still petrified?
> 
> Has JKR deliberately ignored solving this particular problem, as 
she 
> doesn't know how to?  In which case, why didn't she not have him 
see 
> the Basilisk in the first place?  He could have been facing Justin 
> Fitch-Fletchley and not the Basilisk, and JFF would still be 
> petrified and not dead.
> 
> Or is it just a Flint?
> 
> If someone could point me in the right direction, I would be 
> grateful.  I know it is off-topic, but I have been wondering about 
it 
> for a while.
> 
> Catherine

I have just had another look, and realised that Nearly Headless Nick 
is at the welcome feast in GoF.  That makes me think even more that 
it is a flint.
C.




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Tue May  1 09:42:41 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:42:41 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sneakoscope 
In-Reply-To: <F273FVNW6RpniKnrzj100006de0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKEEBJCEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 17956

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cait Hunter [mailto:kiary91 at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 4:35 AM

> Also, consider in GOF. The FAKE Mad Eye Moody had a bunch of them in his 
> office. Maybe he broke them himself to keep them from alerting others to HIS 
> ... um.. impersonation? What exactly sets one off, anyway?

Yes, and he said he had to turn them *off*, because they wouldn't stop
buzzing. He wanted to make Harry believe (I think it was Harry he took
to his office after he caught him telling Cedric about the dragons) that
it was because of all the students around telling lies. This was definitely
a red herring, and I didn't get it!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trina [mailto:lj2d30 at gateway.net]
 
> Methinks that Harry ought to pay attention to the Sneakoscope.

I think we should pay attention to those things, too (see above).
And yes, I think it went off a couple of times in PoA, and Scabbers
was always around.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May  1 10:34:36 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:34:36 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I need a word translated!
Message-ID: <f7.9ac5b3a.281feb3c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17957

In a message dated 4/29/2001 2:34:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ra_1013 at yahoo.com writes:

> The word in English in "Hinkypuck".

In my American edition, the word is "hinkypink." Is it like that in anyone 
else's copy?

Toby



From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May  1 10:31:25 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:31:25 EDT
Subject: Questions
Message-ID: <c6.14ffaa50.281fea7d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17958

I am sorry if these questions have been asked before, but until recently, I 
haven't been able to keep up with this list as much as I would like. My 
computer crashed shortly after I joined the list, I have had to find creative 
ways to check my e-mail. Unfortunately, I had to delete the 1,000 e-mails I 
had on this screen name (all that mail just from *two* Harry Potter list!). 
So, here's some things that I've been wondering:

1- Which Professor is head of Ravenclaw?

2- Does each house have a ghost, and if so, who are the ghosts of Hufflepuff 
and Ravenclaw? (This may be answered in SS, but currently my husband is 
reading it, and I am unable to consult it)

3- Do the Gryffindors ever have class with the Ravelclaws?

4- Which houses were Harry's parents in?

Thanks!

Toby



From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May  1 10:37:07 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:37:07 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Understanding SHIPping, Ludo Bagman, Audio versions
Message-ID: <14.13716419.281febd3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17959

In a message dated 4/29/2001 2:52:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ra_1013 at yahoo.com writes:

> --- Michelle Apostolides wrote: 
>  > As for Ludo Bagman. Well I know that Dumbledore
>  > states ant the end of
>  > The Pensieve chapter that LB is NOT a DE but I
>  > wonder... Winky is
>  > obviously a very loyal elf and I don't think she
>  > would have been so
>  > vehement about LB at the end of " The House Elf
>  > Liberation Front "
>  > without good reason.
>  > I think Ludo is one to watch.
>  
>  I agree to a certain extent.  I think Ludo *was*
>  really a DE, not just an innocent dupe.  It only
>  occurred to me in my last reading of GOF, but remember
>  that Ludo also ran off after the TWT, not just
>  Karkaroff.  Fred and George say it was because of the
>  goblins, but what if *Ludo* was who Voldie was
>  referring to as the coward?

I think Winky said those things about Ludo because Crouch had such a low 
opinion of him as a department head at the MoM. The two of them definitely 
had their own way of doing things.

Toby



From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May  1 10:44:31 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:44:31 EDT
Subject: Harry's ethics and behavior
Message-ID: <71.d01e6ca.281fed8f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17960

In a message dated 4/29/2001 3:02:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
lj2d30 at gateway.net writes:

> > 3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, just 
>  > about everyone whnever it is convenient. 
>  
>  Are you familiar with Harry's pre-Hogwarts background?  He was for 10 
>  years *locked in a cupboard under the stairs* and mistreated by his 
>  uncle, aunt, and cousin.  He had no toys, no clothes that fit, never 
>  given enough to eat,  was beaten up regularly by his cousin Dudley, 
>  never encouraged to trust or ask questions about anything. He is not 
>  a very trusting person, especially when it comes to authority 
>  figures.  He does things on his own as a result of this upbringing.  
>  In GoF he has demonstrated more trust of adults, thanks to the 
>  kindness of the Weasleys and the trust of Dumbledore. 

I have to agree with your answer, Trinia, but let me offer this as well....

You have to keep in mind that the Harry Potter books are first and foremost a 
medium of entertainment. A child who lives strictly by the rules, and never 
has any adventures would be a boring child to read about. Could you imagine 
reading a book series about Percy Weasly's days at Hogwarts? BOR-ING! Instead 
of having meaningful chapters like the House Elf Liberation Front in GoF, 
you'd have "Harry, Ron and Hermione Do Their Homework." YAWN. No thanks.

Secondly, all children break rules. I would worry about a child who simply 
does what he's told all the time and never challenges the rules. Children 
need to explore their world and do more than homework. I'm glad Harry and his 
friends are rebellious. Makes them seem more like real children.

Toby



From old_wych at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 12:37:54 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 05:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions
In-Reply-To: <c6.14ffaa50.281fea7d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010501123754.1127.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17961


--- dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com wrote:

> 
> 1- Which Professor is head of Ravenclaw?
> 
According to the HP Lexicon it's Flitwick, but I think
that's a deduction of some sort, unless JKR said it in
an interview. I'd be interested to know where that
comes from, since I can't remember it being mentioned
in the books.

> 2- Does each house have a ghost, and if so, who are
> the ghosts of Hufflepuff 
> and Ravenclaw? (This may be answered in SS, but
> currently my husband is 
> reading it, and I am unable to consult it)
> 
Hufflepuff ghost is the Fat Friar, mentioned in PS/SS,
Sorting Hat chapter.

> 3- Do the Gryffindors ever have class with the
> Ravelclaws?
> 
If they do, we haven't witnessed it yet.

> 4- Which houses were Harry's parents in?
> 
JKR has said in an interview that Lily was a
Gryffindor; we don't know about James for sure.


Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May  1 14:23:09 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:23:09 -0000
Subject: Magic in the Bible
Message-ID: <9cmgse+recj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17962

There has been some discussion lately on HP and the Bible, much of 
it, from my perspective as a Sunday School teacher, rather ill-
informed on both sides (Hey, I'm feeling Snape-y today). I may have 
more to say on this later, but for now I thought this essay from 
Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology does an admirably 
balanced job of outlining how magic is viewed in Scripture (Surprise! 
It's not totally negative)

Magic [N] [E] 

The Old Testament. Magic?the attempt to exploit supernatural powers 
by formulaic recitations to achieve goals that were otherwise 
unrealizable?was seen in a negative light in the Old Testament (Lev 
19:26, 31; 20:6; 1 Sam 28:9; Isa 8:19; 44:25; 57:3; Jer 27:9; Ezek 
22:28; Micah 5:12; Nahum 3:4; Mal 3:5) and was banned under penalty 
of death (Exod 22:18; Lev 20:27; Deut 18:10-11). However, many 
Canaanite magical practices were later widespread in the divided 
monarchy: Jezebel practiced sorcery (2 Kings 9:22); Manasseh 
encouraged divination (2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chron 33:6); Hebrew seers and 
diviners practiced the magic arts (Micah 3:7); and Isaiah condemned 
women who wore charms (Isa 3:18-23). The multiplicity of terminology 
used in the bans testifies that magic was a pervasive problem in the 
Israelite world. However, many of the banned terms (primarily in Deut 
18:10-11) have defied easy explanation, including child sacrifice 
(possibly used for divinatory purposes Deut 18:10; 2 Kings 21:6), 
types of divination (Num 23:23; Deut 18:10-11; 1 Sam 15:23; 2 Kings 
17:17; Micah 3:6), sorceries (Exod 22:18; Deut 18:11; Jer 27:9; Micah 
5:12; Mal 3:5), and necromancy (1 Sam 28).

Magic was considered an aspect of pagan wisdom; magicians were 
counted as wise men (Psalm 58:5; Dan 1:20; 2:13) and officials of 
foreign governments (Gen 41:6; Exod 7:11; Dan 2:2). Different from 
pagan sources, the Old Testament writers did not see a connection 
between magic and the gods. Foreign magicians in Scripture did not 
invoke help of their gods for magical formulas, but often called upon 
self-operating forces that were independent of the gods (Isa 47:13; 
the monotheistic Israelites did not accept the existence of the 
foreign gods ). Moreover, the biblical writers seemed to attribute a 
reality to magical power that it did not ascribe to the gods. Magic 
was considered human rebellion that unlocked divine secrets, making 
humanity equal with God.

Although there was a formal ban on magic, Israelite religion appeared 
on the surface to have adopted some Canaanite magical practices. 
There are many references scattered throughout the Old Testament to 
various imitative magical practices, including the use of clothing (2 
Kings 2:13-14), magic staffs (Exod 7:9), hands (2 Kings 5:11), 
mandrakes (Gen 30:14-18), instruments (2 Kings 6:7), hair (Judges 
16:17), whispering (2 Sam 12:19), spells (Joshua 10:12), belomancy (1 
Sam 20:20-22), hydromancy (Exod 15:25), and various blessings, 
curses, and dreams. Old Testament ceremonial regulations appear to 
have had a magical flavor to them. Animals for sacrifice had to be 
the proper age, sex, and color; many were probably not used because 
they were utilized in the magic arts of the Canaanites (Deut 14:21).
However, foreign materials and technical terms of magic were simply 
used as vehicles of expression in Israelite religion. The magical 
features preserved ancient elements whose original meaning had been 
radically altered. The writers stripped the magical actions of their 
autonomous power and made them serve as vehicles of God's will. 
Yahweh's name was invoked by the miracle worker (Exod 7:8-9; 15:25; 1 
Kings 17:21; 2 Kings 2:14). Miracles were merely signs validating the 
mission of the prophet, who did not work by his skill but by the 
power of Yahweh (Exod 3:14-17; Deut 13:2-3; Judges 6:17, 36; 1 Kings 
18:36; Isa 7:10-11). The writers took great pains to show that Moses 
was helpless without God (Exod 4:10; 6:12, 30). Even Balaam, both a 
magician and prophet, could only do God's will (Num 23:12). God could 
overturn a curse and make it a blessing (Psalm 109:28). The man of 
God healed the sick, revealed hidden things, performed wonders, and 
pronounced curses and blessings, just like a pagan magician. However, 
it was not done with any technical skill, nor were these people 
praised for any wisdom (2 Kings 5:11). All procedures were 
commonplace and untraditional.

The Israelites viewed divination as a subsidiary of magic. The 
biblical writers banned all of the foreign techniques employed for 
divinatory oracles (Lev 20:6, 27; Deut 18:10; 1 Sam 28:3; 2 Kings 
23:24; Isa 2:6; 8:19; 57:3; Ezek 13:17), including hydromancy (Gen 
44:5,15) and astrology (Isa 47:13; Jer 10:2). They were distinguished 
from inquiries of Yahweh (Urim and Thummin, Num 27:21; ephod, 1 Sam 
23:9; lots, Num 26:55; dreams, 1 Sam 28:6) on the grounds that 
divination was a custom of the nations. However, the Israelites 
believed in its power (1 Sam 28:8-20). As with magic, the biblical 
writers did not view divination as connected with the gods, but 
instead considered it a magic or wisdom art that revealed secrets of 
God in a wrong way (Isa 19:3; Ezek 21:26; Hosea 4:12). Thus, the 
divinatory technician trusted in omens and in human wisdom, rather 
than in God. Inquiry was acceptable, as long as it was only to God 
and confirmed by him (Judges 6:36; 7:4; 2 Sam 5:23). The Israelites 
preferred the simple technique of lot inquiry, addressing God and 
relying on his decision instead of going through an elaborate system 
of ritual. In sum, they did not reject divination in the strictest 
sense, but approved of the technique of inquiring of God to learn of 
his decisions.

The New Testament. Magical practices were also prevalent in the New 
Testament world. Although the New Testament writers did not 
explicitly condemn magic, none who practiced magic arts were 
described in a flattering way. There were numerous warnings against 
sorcery (Gk. pharmakos [farmakov"], one who dealt with drugs and 
potions Gal 5:20; Rev 9:21; 18:23; 21:8; 22:15).

New Testament Christians viewed magical practices like their Old 
Testament counterparts. Although Simon the magician (Gk. magos 
[mavgo"] originally a term for an Iranian priestly group, it came to 
have a technical meaning cf. Herodotus, The Histories 1.101,132; Matt 
2:1-16; Acts 13:6-8) was severely criticized by Peter (Acts 8:9-24), 
the efficacy of his power was not denied, and he was considered 
dangerous. The story of Bar-Jesus (who attempted to resist Paul and 
Barnabas Acts 13:4-12) was used by the writer to exhibit the 
differences between Christ and magic. The only other magicians 
mentioned by name were Jannes and Jambres, the Egyptian priests of 
Moses' time (2 Tim 3:6-8); these names were noted in later Jewish 
writings and even by Pliny the Elder, who thought Moses was one of 
the Egyptian magicians (Natural History 30, 1 11). These two were 
looked upon by Paul as examples of those who opposed the truth. The 
one who had a spirit of divination (Gk. pneuma python normally a 
spirit connected with the Delphic oracle Acts 16:16) was forced to 
acknowledge Jesus, but the apostles did not accept this testimony 
because of the ungodly source. The burning of books on magic arts 
(Acts 19:19-20) was seen as a sign that the word of the Lord was 
growing. Seducers (a term that probably signified a spell-binding 
magician 2 Tim 3:13) were thought by Paul to be deceived, and Paul 
claimed figuratively that the Galatians had been bewitched (Gal 3:1). 
He likely alluded to magical practices in his treatment of heresy in 
Colossians 2:8-23.

Many of the accepted practices in the New Testament (exorcisms, faith 
healing, and the use of lots Acts 1:26) could have been construed by 
the Gentiles as similar to their own rituals. In fact, there were 
some linguistic similarities between words used for exorcism and 
healing in the New Testament and pagan magical rites. The Gentiles 
saw miracles as magical in nature, and thus confused those of the 
apostles with their own magic (Acts 8:9-11). The exorcisms of Jesus 
appeared to some as magical (Matt 12:25-37; Mark 3:23-30; Luke 11:17-
20), as well as his use of saliva to heal the blind (Mark 7:33). In 
fact, some rabbinical references claimed that Jesus was a magician. 
But the New Testament writers regarded Jesus and the apostles' 
miraculous Acts as of divine origin. The healing of the woman with 
the issue of blood was done because of her faith (Matt 9:20-22; Mark 
5:25-34; Luke 9:34-38), not by magic. 
Mark W. Chavalas

See also Divination; Idols, Idolatry 

Bibliography. H. C. Brichto, The Problem of "Curse" in the Hebrew 
Bible; A. Guillaume, Prophecy and Divination Among the Hebrews and 
Other Semites; H. Huggman, The Word of the Lord Shall Go Forth:Essays 
in Honor of David Noel Freedman inCelebration of His Sixtieth 
Birthday, pp. 355-59; S. Iwry, JAOS81 (1961): 27-34; J. Lindbloom, 
VT12 (1962): 164-78; M. Unger, Biblical Demonology; R. B. Zuck, 
Bibliotheca Sacra 128 (1971): 362-60. 





From Alakefullmoon at altavista.com  Tue May  1 16:31:48 2001
From: Alakefullmoon at altavista.com (Alakefullmoon at altavista.com)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 16:31:48 -0000
Subject: Hi, im new
Message-ID: <9cmodk+jpi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17963

I expect i will enjoy this forum, I?ll not post much as i have some 
problems with english, but i?d love to read your opinions. Bye!




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 16:36:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 16:36:38 -0000
Subject: PoA 1-2 - Muggle Places -one more Scot
Message-ID: <9cmomm+btqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17964


Andrew wrote: 

>(Man, it's scary going "first.")

Thanks for taking the plunge, Andrew--nice summary!

> 1)    Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let 
somebody get    
>   under them and then blow them up?

I think self-discipline =is= a part of the Hogwarts training; so much 
of the magic is inseparable from discipined habits of mind 
(concentration, will power).  You can see in this scene, though, one 
reason why the wizarding world lives in secret.  Magic is very 
frightening to Muggles, and for good reason, since a 13-year-old with 
two years' training can do something this powerful.  In hostile or 
uncontrolled hands, it's a dangerous weapon, as we see at the World 
Cup riot.  If Muggles knew that some of their neighbors could levitate 
them, drop them from 50 feet, etc. with the wave of a wand, there 
would be all-out war.

>7)    What's up with the telephone sequence? Couldn't Ron have asked 
>somebody, or was he just not thinking?

It often happens to me that I think I know how to use something 
without instructions, get somewhere without a map, etc. and don't 
discover until I try it that I am missing some crucial piece of 
information.  The charitable way to describe it is experiential 
learning; some of us prefer to dive in and try something, while others 
read through the instructions and work it all out in their heads 
first.  The uncharitable way to refer to Ron's/my way of doing these 
things is pigheadedness.
 
Scott wrote:

>--At first I thought that perhaps in his fascination for Muggles 
>Arthur might have gotten a telephone for the Burrow, but on second 
>thought I'm not sure that this is possible.

I bet it would work (Hogwarts is a special case; also, think of all 
the mixed Muggle/wizard households), but it would involve all sorts of 
things Arthur doesn't remotely know about--calling up the phone 
company, using credit cards, having Muggle post, etc.  As of GF they 
don't have one, 'cause Molly uses the village phone to order the 
taxis.

Steve wrote:

>So where does that word "Eeylops" come from? Anyone have an idea? 

No idea, but the associations for me are Eeyore and Cyclops.  What 
purveyors of owls would have to do with gloomy one-eyed donkeys is 
anybody's guess.

Joywitch wrote:

>I am sure the Dursley's house has one of 
>those carefully-manicured lawns with every blade of grass the same 
>height, some very carefully trimmed bushes near the front door, and 
>neat little rows of (what else) petunias on either side of the front 
>walk.

I don't think this ever got said during the 
significance-of-the-names-Lily-and-Petunia discussion, though I 
thought it many times and meant to say it:  the chief difference for 
me is that lilies are rather exotic, rare, and lovely, while petunias 
are the plain Janes of the flower world:  suburban, easy to grow, 
ubiquitous.  I like 'em, personally, but they are definitely very 
ordinary.  (They are also unpleasantly sticky and don't smell very 
nice, but that doesn't really apply; whatever you might say about 
Petunia, she is well-groomed.)

Morag wrote (well, Jo wrote the first bit!):

>"Two members of the Accidental Magic Reversal Department were 
dispatched to 
>Privet Drive a few hours ago.  Miss Dursley has been punctured and 
her 
>memory has been modified." Fudge, PoA, p38 (Brit)
>
>I love that "punctured" - do you suppose she flew round the room, 
making a 
>rude noise, like an old balloon?

I certainly hope so.

While we're on Muggle places, I have a question for anyone familiar 
with King's Cross:  would platform 9 3/4 be outdoors or in?  I always 
pictured it as the underground, but finally noticed that there are a 
lot of owls hooting through the mist in GF 11.  So part of it at least 
is 
aboveground.

None of this is relevant to the plot so far, but I like to have these 
images straight in my head.

Amanda wrote:

>Scrooge McDuck. Considering him with Scotty, I'm amazed you guys get 
any
>credibility at all.....

Oh, man, I'd forgotten about him.  The accent aside, he is a very 
nasty stereotype--the cheap, rich Scot.  Someone please tell me Disney 
has retired him.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
 "No one wants to read about some ugly old Armenian
 warlock, even if he did save a village from werewolves.  
 He'd look dreadful on the front cover.  No dress sense 
 at all."
                         -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 16:32:52 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 16:32:52 -0000
Subject: PoA 1-2 - Muggle Places -one more Scot
Message-ID: <9cmofk+nnqg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17966

Andrew wrote:

>(Man, it's scary going "first.")

Thanks for taking the plunge, Andrew--nice summary!

> 1)    Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let 
somebody get    
>   under them and then blow them up?

I think self-discipline =is= a part of the Hogwarts training; so much 
of the magic is inseparable from discipined habits of mind 
(concentration, will power).  You can see in this scene, though, one 
reason why the wizarding world lives in secret.  Magic is very 
frightening to Muggles, and for good reason, since a 13-year-old with 
two years' training can do something this powerful.  In hostile or 
uncontrolled hands, it's a dangerous weapon, as we see at the World 
Cup riot.  If Muggles knew that some of their neighbors could levitate 
them, drop them from 50 feet, etc. with the wave of a wand, there 
would be all-out war.

>7)    What's up with the telephone sequence? Couldn't Ron have asked 
>somebody, or was he just not thinking?

It often happens to me that I think I know how to use something 
without instructions, get somewhere without a map, etc. and don't 
discover until I try it that I am missing some crucial piece of 
information.  The charitable way to describe it is experiential 
learning; some of us prefer to dive in and try something, while others 
read through the instructions and work it all out in their heads 
first.  The uncharitable way to refer to Ron's/my way of doing these 
things is pigheadedness.
 
Scott wrote:

>--At first I thought that perhaps in his fascination for Muggles 
>Arthur might have gotten a telephone for the Burrow, but on second 
>thought I'm not sure that this is possible.

I bet it would work (Hogwarts is a special case; also, think of all 
the mixed Muggle/wizard households), but it would involve all sorts of 
things Arthur doesn't remotely know about--calling up the phone 
company, using credit cards, having Muggle post, etc.  As of GF they 
don't have one, 'cause Molly uses the village phone to order the 
taxis.

Steve wrote:

>So where does that word "Eeylops" come from? Anyone have an idea? 

No idea, but the associations for me are Eeyore and Cyclops.  What 
purveyors of owls would have to do with gloomy one-eyed donkeys is 
anybody's guess.

Joywitch wrote:

>I am sure the Dursley's house has one of 
>those carefully-manicured lawns with every blade of grass the same 
>height, some very carefully trimmed bushes near the front door, and 
>neat little rows of (what else) petunias on either side of the front 
>walk.

I don't think this ever got said during the 
significance-of-the-names-Lily-and-Petunia discussion, though I 
thought it many times and meant to say it:  the chief difference for 
me is that lilies are rather exotic, rare, and lovely, while petunias 
are the plain Janes of the flower world:  suburban, easy to grow, 
ubiquitous.  I like 'em, personally, but they are definitely very 
ordinary.  (They are also unpleasantly sticky and don't smell very 
nice, but that doesn't really apply; whatever you might say about 
Petunia, she is well-groomed.)

Morag wrote (well, Jo wrote the first bit!):

>"Two members of the Accidental Magic Reversal Department were 
dispatched to 
>Privet Drive a few hours ago.  Miss Dursley has been punctured and 
her 
>memory has been modified." Fudge, PoA, p38 (Brit)
>
>I love that "punctured" - do you suppose she flew round the room, 
making a 
>rude noise, like an old balloon?

I certainly hope so.

While we're on Muggle places, I have a question for anyone familiar 
with King's Cross:  would platform 9 3/4 be outdoors or in?  I always 
pictured it as the underground, but finally noticed that there are a 
lot of owls hooting through the mist.  So part of it at least is 
aboveground.

None of this is relevant to the plot so far, but I like to have these 
images straight in my head.

Amanda wrote:

>Scrooge McDuck. Considering him with Scotty, I'm amazed you guys get 
any
>credibility at all.....

Oh, man, I'd forgotten about him.  The accent aside, he is a very 
nasty stereotype--the cheap, rich Scot.  Someone please tell me Disney 
has retired him.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
 "No one wants to read about some ugly old Armenian
 warlock, even if he did save a village from werewolves.  
 He'd look dreadful on the front cover.  No dress sense 
 at all."
                         -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------------




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Tue May  1 18:18:02 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:18:02 +0100
Subject: Strange places you find HP mentioned
Message-ID: <004a01c0d26b$11cdaf80$3942063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 17967

Hi

I'm one of those strange people who read their horoscope mist days - in
fact every day ! Anyway - looked at my horoscope for today and found
this !!

A Boggart, according to JK Rowling, is a mystical creature that hides in
dark places. If you look at it, it takes the shape of whatever - or
whoever, you fear the most. Life, of course, is not a Harry Potter
novel. Boggarts, as such, do not exist. But in our minds, we all have a
Boggart. It waits till it thinks it can scare us and then it fills our
head with reasons to feel afraid. To beat a Boggart, you have to summon
your sense of humour. Laughter is the only emotion that's more powerful
than fear. Find something to smile about today. And stop worrying.

It made me smile to just read it. Must remember a boggart next time I
come up against something or someone I don't like !!!

Michelle






From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 00:42:17 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 00:42:17 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sneakoscope (was: Harry: his wealth, his scar, his prodigious talents)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F60J2HxYHLBQhE00008761@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17968

Trina wrote:


>
>Morag Traynor wrote:
>
> > Interesting how the gifts reflect the givers <snippitty, snip,
>snip> Ron's gift is suspicion, but then it probably doesn't work
>anyway>
>
>Oh, but I think it really does work. Ron says it went off when he was
>at dinner the night he wrote Harry's birthday letter (maybe Pettigrew
>was in Ron's pocket?)  It also fires up when Harry, Hermione, and Ron
>first enter the train compartment.  Scabbers/Pettigrew was there at
>the time.  It goes off in Harry and Ron's dormitory during Christmas--
>again Scabbers was there, too.
>
>Methinks that Harry ought to pay attention to the Sneakoscope.
>
>Trina, who refuses to call H, H, & R a "troika" on the grounds it
>makes them sound like a balalaika band.

I agree it probably *does* work, in fact I think they should have paid it a 
lot more attention - but then, there generally seems to be a red herring 
around at the same time :)  I was thinking from Ron's POV when I said that!
I agree about "troika" <g> - what's wrong with "trio"?

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From hallieu at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 21:02:53 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 21:02:53 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
Message-ID: <F41DKNuj8Nmnf90z5Ea0000c291@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17969

For some reason I'm pretty sure and Eeylop is a type of owl.  Of course, I 
may be wrong, but I have this nagging feeling...
Hallie


>From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:17:43 -0000
>
>
> > >
> >  Yeh, well I can out-nitpick Steve's post. (I am not the self-
> > appointed president of the League Of Obsessed Nitpickers for
>nothing,
> > you know.)  The original poster's (don't know who, sorry) spelling
>of
> > "Eeylops" is correct.  Steve's spelling, "Eyelops" is not.  It was
> > probably just a typo on Steve's part, however, I have seen it
> > mispelled the same way in other places, including on either the
> > Scholastic or WB site.
>
>Yep, it was a typo. Sorry. I panicked, though, and quickly checked
>the Lexicon to make sure I hadn't typed it wrong there too. Looks
>like I was okay. *whew*
>
>So where does that word "Eeylops" come from? Anyone have an idea?
>I'll have to check Whats In A Name and see if Ellie has it listed
>there. What a great word, though!
>
>Steve Vander Ark
>The Harry Potter Lexicon
>which has a nice Diagon Alley page, including EEYLOPS
>http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
>

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From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 17:43:08 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 17:43:08 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.
Message-ID: <LAW2-F38lzFLkg1LcgY00005734@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17970

I must say I feel *very* uncomfortable with this one.  These are real people 
getting killed and having their lives ruined.


>From: "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A pet theory concerning magic in the real 
>world.
>Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 02:23:28 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggonmyhead at h... wrote:
> > I am new to this board - so hello everyone.
> >
> > This is a pet theory I have been harbouring for some time, and have
> > tried out on a few people and developed.  Basically it is an
> > explanation for those who insist on believing that J.K. Rowling must
> > have got her ideas from somewhere.  Basically, my problem is that we
> > are never told how the muggle killings that characterised voldemorts
> > reign were explained - memory charms cannot surely destroy memories
> > of loved ones.  My idea is that as the muggle prime minister is in
> > contact with the minister for magic, the magic minister (mm) aranged
> > with the prime inister (pm) so that all the troubles in northern
> > Ieland of the seventies and eighties were invented - therefore any
> > killing was as a result of magic - and the troubles were invented as
> > an excuse - to stop any muggles getting suspicious.  The few
> > terrorist activitis were commited by death eaters - unwilling to
> > admit defeat - the recent rise of voldemort would explain the recent
> > upsurge in terrorist activity.
> >
> > Make of it what you will - I rather like it.
>
>I like it too, t.g.  The chronology fits within that of the canon, and
>the unexplained bombongs leave the possibility open.
>
>Haggridd
>

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From hallieu at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 21:12:04 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 21:12:04 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are the Scots? Was Interim Report Re: HP on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
Message-ID: <F43N6EcCiQyLreIYmTx0000c4c0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17971

For some reason, I always have Lily as being of Welsh descent - Evans is 
definitely a Welsh name, and red hair is a Welsh trait (okay, technically a 
Celtic trait - I'm of Irish descent and have red hair, but who's counting?). 
  Maybe it was just me being stupid.  Certainly there are no obvious Welsh 
people.
Hallie


>From: "Morag Traynor" <moragt at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Where are the Scots? Was Interim Report Re: HP 
>on Audio: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
>Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:44:01
>
>Ender wrote:
> >   --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> >   >
> >   > I love his Prof Mcgonagall.  For me, has given it the right amount
> >     of sharpness - and he hasn't fallen into the trap of giving her a
> >   > Scottish accent which would probably sound too comical, and would
> >   > give her less dignity than she deserves.  The sections in CoS and
> >   > GoF, when she is portrayed as softening slightly are also well
> >   done, IMO.
> >   >
> >    To my American ears, MacGonagall's Scots voice by Dale is
> >   appropriate, and in no way comical.
> >
> >
> >   I was wondering about that comment.  Why would a Scottish accent be
> >considered comical?  Is that a bit of local prejudice?  I also find it
> >interesting that Rowling, who lives in Scotland and has set Hogwarts in
> >Scotland, has given us no overtly scottish characters, aside from,
> >possibly, McGonagall and MacNair...unless I'm missing something (and I'm
> >sure you'll all let me know if I am :)
> >   Other than that we have a rather diverse group of characters of 
>African,
> >Irish, Eastern and Asian descent. Where are the Scots?  And what about 
>the
> >Welsh, for that matter?
>
>To my Scottish ears, a Scottish accent is not comical, either! :)  I wonder
>if Star Trek's Scotty has a lot to answer for?  *His* accent sounded
>*extremely* comical to British ears.  As for other Scots, I always imagined
>Hagrid with an Ayrshire accent, until JKR said it was West Country, and I
>imagine Madeye Moody as a Scot "OH NO YOU DON'T, LADDIE!" sounds very
>Scottish to me!
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From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 17:40:17 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 17:40:17 -0000
Subject: Possible HP Conference
Message-ID: <9cmse2+rsp4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17972

Hey everybody, I'm posting this again b/c of the high volume of the 
list (I just want to be sure people see it).  Remember, you have to 
be an academic to reply -- just someone with an interest in this kind 
of conference. 

Having read the well researched (and intellectually stimulating) 
posts that appear on HPFGU on a daily basis, I've begun to suspect 
that a great number of us are academics or graduate students.  This 
has piqued my interest about scholarly material on HP (or the 
potential thereof), and so I've also done a few quick searches and 
found a handful of scholarly articles that have been written on the 
Harry Potter series.

This makes me think that we really need to take the traditional next 
step in scholarship:  WE GOTTA HAVE A CONFERENCE.  And, since I'm 
completely mad, I'm willing to make an attempt at organizing one at 
the small college where my husband and I teach.  (http://www.lmc.edu )

However, I will issue a caveat about my idea:  This would be a 
serious (no pun intended) interdisciplinary scholarly conference, and 
in no way a fan convention.  While interested people outside academe 
would certainly be welcome, this conference would take the form of a 
traditional academic conference ? papers, panels, plenary sessions, 
etc.

Of course, I would have to convince my Dean first, and in order to do 
so I need to be able to show proof that there are plenty of people 
out there with enough scholarly interest in HP to make a conference 
possible.  Hence, our most gracious moderators  have granted me 
permission to conduct a little poll to get the statistics I need to 
persuade my Dean (if I could just get that Imperious Curse to work
) 
that there is a market for an HP conference.

Please reply to the following questions at the address: 
HPconference at yahoo.com.  DO NOT reply to the list (else, Neil might 
curse me).  What I need to know is:

1. What is your academic profession and area of focus?
2. Would you be interested in attending an interdisciplinary academic 
conference on the Harry Potter series?
3. Where are you (you may be vague and provide only the region, e.g. 
U.S. Pacific North-West, etc.)?
4. Do you already have an HP topic for a paper, etc. in mind?  
Remember, this would be an interdisciplinary conference, so it could 
be anything from Lit Crit to pop culture studies to Classics to 
History to the publishing business end of things.
5. Any other comments are welcome.

Please feel free to forward this post to any of your colleagues whom 
you think may be interested and who may not be on the list.  Again, 
DO NOT reply to the list, but instead reply to HPconference at yahoo.com 

Thanks everybody,

Stephanie





From hallieu at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 21:24:43 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 21:24:43 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary thoughts
Message-ID: <F19829xDbH8J0sca0Zk0000b4e2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17973

I thought they were prisons?  I have Privet Drive as being typical suburbia 
- having been to Surrey (the *posh* part of London) I can assure you that it 
is one of those *very* well kept places that drive you mad!
Hallie


>From: Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Summary thoughts
>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:13:53 -0700
>
>At 04:22 PM 4/30/01 +0000, joym999 at aol.com wrote:
> >Although the books don't say very much about Privet Drive, I have
> >imagined it to be one of those incredibly dull, every-house-the-same,
> >bland, insipid suburbs.  I am sure the Dursley's house has one of
> >those carefully-manicured lawns with every blade of grass the same
> >height, some very carefully trimmed bushes near the front door, and
> >neat little rows of (what else) petunias on either side of the front
> >walk.
>
>Could Privet Drive be in one of those iron-fenced "mini-Azkaban"
>communities where you have to give the guards your full name,
>occupation, and maiden name of your second cousin's dental
>hygenist before they let you in?  (Of course I'm not sure they
>have those in the UK...)
>
>
>
>                                                  -- Dave
>

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From wr7238 at msn.com  Tue May  1 22:10:54 2001
From: wr7238 at msn.com (Roy Mallett)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:10:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hi, im new
Message-ID: <OE48IAk2NK72UcnBsSv000116cd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17974

Welcome to this great group! You are not alone with newness. You will love all the posts. The whole group are wonderful people from all over. You will hear from really smart people and you'll learn quite a lot about Harry Potter and his adventures.

I always learn something new from all the posts.  

I'm Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachuseets USA



----- Original Message -----
From: Alakefullmoon at altavista.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:27 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hi, im new


I expect i will enjoy this forum, I?ll not post much as i have some  
problems with english, but i?d love to read your opinions. Bye!


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 13:01:32 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:01:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions
In-Reply-To: <c6.14ffaa50.281fea7d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010501130132.13100.qmail@web210.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17975

--- dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com wrote:
> I am sorry if these questions have been asked
> before, but until recently, I 
> haven't been able to keep up with this list as much
> as I would like. My 
> computer crashed shortly after I joined the list, I
> have had to find creative 
> ways to check my e-mail. Unfortunately, I had to
> delete the 1,000 e-mails I 
> had on this screen name (all that mail just from
> *two* Harry Potter list!). 
> So, here's some things that I've been wondering:
> 
> 1- Which Professor is head of Ravenclaw?
> 
Professor Flitwick

> 2- Does each house have a ghost, and if so, who are
> the ghosts of Hufflepuff 
> and Ravenclaw? (This may be answered in SS, but
> currently my husband is 
> reading it, and I am unable to consult it)
> 
The Fat Friar is the Hufflepuff ghost and the Grey
Lady is the Ravenclaw ghost.

> 3- Do the Gryffindors ever have class with the
> Ravelclaws?
>
I don't recall them having classes together. Anyone
else know about this?
 
> 4- Which houses were Harry's parents in?
> 

They were both in Gryffindor.

Sheryll, amazed she in on top of her email enough to
be able to answer this!


=====
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__________________________________________________
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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 13:32:18 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:32:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Questions - Ghosts and Houses
In-Reply-To: <c6.14ffaa50.281fea7d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010501133218.87307.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17976

--- dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com wrote:
> 1- Which Professor is head of Ravenclaw?

Hasn't been revealed yet, but I heard somewhere that
the Arithmancy professor might be the head.
 
> 2- Does each house have a ghost, and if so, who are
> the ghosts of Hufflepuff 
> and Ravenclaw? (This may be answered in SS, but
> currently my husband is 
> reading it, and I am unable to consult it)

Each house does have a ghost - Nearly Headless Nick
for Gryffindor, the Bloody Baron for Slytherin, and
the Fat Friar for Hufflepuff.  Again, Ravenclaw's
hasn't been revealed, but rumor is that it will be a
ghost called the Grey Lady.  

Y'know, I'd be interested to know how they choose the
house ghost.  And does it ever change?  I doubt that
Nick is the *only* ghost who was in Gryffindor, so it
can't just be the house they were in at Hogwarts.  Any
thoughts?

> 3- Do the Gryffindors ever have class with the
> Ravelclaws?

Not that we've seen, which I always thought was odd.  
 
> 4- Which houses were Harry's parents in?

Gryffindor of course!



Andrea

=====
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From particle at urbanet.ch  Tue May  1 16:50:10 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:50:10 +0200
Subject: Percy's motivations (Was : Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry's ethics and  behavior)
References: <71.d01e6ca.281fed8f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AEEE941.8A64C76@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 17977

dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com wrote:

> You have to keep in mind that the Harry Potter books are first and
> foremost a
> medium of entertainment. A child who lives strictly by the rules, and
> never
> has any adventures would be a boring child to read about. Could you
> imagine
> reading a book series about Percy Weasly's days at Hogwarts? BOR-ING!
> Instead
> of having meaningful chapters like the House Elf Liberation Front in
> GoF,
> you'd have "Harry, Ron and Hermione Do Their Homework." YAWN. No
> thanks.
>
> Secondly, all children break rules. I would worry about a child who
> simply
> does what he's told all the time and never challenges the rules.
> Children
> need to explore their world and do more than homework. I'm glad Harry
> and his
> friends are rebellious. Makes them seem more like real children.

And that gives me an opening for what I've been thinking about for the
past couple of days...why is Percy so determined to be Perfect? He's
constantly surrounded by more 'maverick-type' role models and family
members, like Arthur who finds loopholes in laws he helps enforce, Bill
with his leather and earrings, Charlie and his dragons, to say nothing
of Ron or the twins (no comment on Ginny because we don't know much
about her away-from-Harry behavior except that she talks a lot). None of
them seem to be the type to put rules above all else as Percy seems to
be veering dangerously close to doing - even Molly, the one who's always
upbraiding the twins or commenting on Arthur or Bill's eccentricities,
seems to be just the one trying to keep a *little* bit of sanity in her
household, not an actual stickler at heart. So, I'm wondering what you
all think Percy's thinking in that little red head of his.

There's the variation on Ron theory, of course, that Percy tried to be
'perfect' so he could match his older brothers in their accomplishments.
But Bill was a Head Boy and seems to have a fairly steady - and
interesting - job, and he's the one that Harry thinks is 'cool'. There's
also the - this one's popular in the few Percy-past fanfics out there -
idea that something *bad* happened to Percy once when he was breaking
the rules (death of a Weasley between Charlie and Percy, kidnap by Death
Eaters, etc.), and he blamed himself, and made himself stick firmly to
the rules so that it won't happen again. And then he could just be
ambitious, a bit embarrassed about the state of the family finances, and
having determined that a lot of it is due to Arthur's eccentricities
(like his Muggle-loving, which apparently set him back at the Ministry),
he sets out to make himself the model son/student/employee, to make up
for it.

Those are the possibilities I've come up with so far...what do you guys
think?

- Firebolt

PS I hope there wasn't a Percy Weasley discussion that I missed during
my frequent disappearances, and I'm not repeating old material...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Tue May  1 23:11:37 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:11:37 -0000
Subject: Kings Cross and Platform 9 3/4
In-Reply-To: <9cmomm+btqm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cnfr9+3djf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17978

Sorry, I misremembered. There are some photos of Kings Cross 
at HPGalleries, my other favorite HP site:

http://hpgalleries.com/location1.htm

Also, I suspect that somewhere you could find a webcam at 
Kings X.

Ivis




From wr7238 at msn.com  Tue May  1 23:03:12 2001
From: wr7238 at msn.com (Roy Mallett)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:03:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange places you find HP mentioned
Message-ID: <OE771EnzoWfqvaHUhSh00010551@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17979

Hi, Michelle, Wanda The Witch here. Where did you read that from, what paper? I'm a Piceses and was just curious?

I'm sure so will many from this group. You sure had a great horoscope!

Wanda



----- Original Message -----
From: Michelle Apostolides
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:09 PM
To: HPforGrownups
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange places you find HP mentioned


Hi

I'm one of those strange people who read their horoscope mist days - in
fact every day ! Anyway - looked at my horoscope for today and found
this !!

A Boggart, according to JK Rowling, is a mystical creature that hides in
dark places. If you look at it, it takes the shape of whatever - or
whoever, you fear the most. Life, of course, is not a Harry Potter
novel. Boggarts, as such, do not exist. But in our minds, we all have a
Boggart. It waits till it thinks it can scare us and then it fills our
head with reasons to feel afraid. To beat a Boggart, you have to summon
your sense of humour. Laughter is the only emotion that's more powerful
than fear. Find something to smile about today. And stop worrying.

It made me smile to just read it. Must remember a boggart next time I
come up against something or someone I don't like !!!

Michelle





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From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Tue May  1 23:06:58 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:06:58 -0000
Subject: Platform 9  3/4
In-Reply-To: <9cmomm+btqm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cnfii+o517@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17980

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> While we're on Muggle places, I have a question for anyone 
familiar 
> with King's Cross:  would platform 9 3/4 be outdoors or in?  I 
always 
> pictured it as the underground, but finally noticed that there are 
a 
> lot of owls hooting through the mist in GF 11.  So part of it at 
least  is  aboveground.

The trains part of Kings Cross [as opposed to the giant 
Underground station] is aboveground, but the platforms and 
tracks are covered by a very high roof. There are, IIRC six or eight 
platforms in the main part of Kings Cross. Then to the "left" if 
you're facing in the direction the trains leave is another small set 
of platforms [including trains to Cambridge] which is platforms 
eight to eleven? or something like that. In any case, I remember 
thinking the last time I was there that Platform 9 3/4 wasn't 
really in the main part of the station at all!

I believe there are some photos of Kings Cross in the Files 
which will at least give you a better idea of what I'm trying to 
explain about the "roof".

HTH,
Ivis





From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Tue May  1 18:42:42 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:42:42 -0000
Subject: Possible HP Conference
Message-ID: <9cn032+pe8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17981

I'm going to post this again since the first one is already far, far 
back on the msg list.  Remember, you don't have to be an "academic" 
to respond, just someone who would be interested in this kind of 
conference.  

Having read the well researched (and intellectually stimulating) 
posts that appear on HPFGU on a daily basis, I've begun to suspect 
that a great number of us are academics or graduate students.  This 
has piqued my interest about scholarly material on HP (or the 
potential thereof), and so I've also done a few quick searches and 
found a handful of scholarly articles that have been written on the 
Harry Potter series.

This makes me think that we really need to take the traditional next 
step in scholarship:  WE GOTTA HAVE A CONFERENCE.  And, since I'm 
completely mad, I'm willing to make an attempt at organizing one at 
the small college where my husband and I teach.  (http://www.lmc.edu )

However, I will issue a caveat about my idea:  This would be a 
serious (no pun intended) interdisciplinary scholarly conference, and 
in no way a fan convention.  While interested people outside academe 
would certainly be welcome, this conference would take the form of a 
traditional academic conference ? papers, panels, plenary sessions, 
etc.

Of course, I would have to convince my Dean first, and in order to do 
so I need to be able to show proof that there are plenty of academics 
out there with enough scholarly interest in HP to make a conference 
possible.  Hence, our most gracious moderators  have granted me 
permission to conduct a little poll to get the statistics I need to 
persuade my Dean (if I could just get that Imperious Curse to work
) 
that there is a market for an HP conference.

Please reply to the following questions at the address: 
HPconference at yahoo.com.  DO NOT reply to the list (else, Neil might 
curse me).  What I need to know is:

1. What is your academic profession and area of focus?
2. Would you be interested in attending an interdisciplinary academic 
conference on the Harry Potter series?
3. Where are you (you may be vague and provide only the region, e.g. 
U.S. Pacific North-West, etc.)?
4. Do you already have an HP topic for a paper, etc. in mind?  
Remember, this would be an interdisciplinary conference, so it could 
be anything from Lit Crit to pop culture studies to mythology to 
Classics to History to the publishing business end of things.
5. Any other comments are welcome.

Please feel free to forward this post to any of your colleagues whom 
you think may be interested and who may not be on the list.  Again, 
DO NOT reply to the list, but instead reply to HPconference at yahoo.com 

Thanks everybody,

Stephanie





From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May  2 00:19:56 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:19:56 -0000
Subject: A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F38lzFLkg1LcgY00005734@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cnjrc+g6l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17982

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> I must say I feel *very* uncomfortable with this one.  These are 
real people 
> getting killed and having their lives ruined.
> 

I agree with Morag in reference to the theory (below).  I think it is 
insulting to the Irish people.  And, since politics is considered off-
topic on this group, I think we should not get into a discussion of 
this theory.  I also respectively request that eggonmyhead try to 
avoid politics in the future, or else he/she will have to change 
her/his name to eggonmyface.  (sorry for the bad joke, no insult 
intended to eggonmyhead, who does get an A for creativity, IMHO 
despite the politics.)

--Joywitch


> 
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggonmyhead at h... wrote:
> > > I am new to this board - so hello everyone.
> > >
> > > This is a pet theory I have been harbouring for some time, and 
have
> > > tried out on a few people and developed.  Basically it is an
> > > explanation for those who insist on believing that J.K. Rowling 
must
> > > have got her ideas from somewhere.  Basically, my problem is 
that we
> > > are never told how the muggle killings that characterised 
voldemorts
> > > reign were explained - memory charms cannot surely destroy 
memories
> > > of loved ones.  My idea is that as the muggle prime minister is 
in
> > > contact with the minister for magic, the magic minister (mm) 
aranged
> > > with the prime inister (pm) so that all the troubles in northern
> > > Ieland of the seventies and eighties were invented - therefore 
any
> > > killing was as a result of magic - and the troubles were 
invented as
> > > an excuse - to stop any muggles getting suspicious.  The few
> > > terrorist activitis were commited by death eaters - unwilling to
> > > admit defeat - the recent rise of voldemort would explain the 
recent
> > > upsurge in terrorist activity.
> > >
> > > Make of it what you will - I rather like it.
> >
> >I like it too, t.g.  The chronology fits within that of the canon, 
and
> >the unexplained bombongs leave the possibility open.
> >
> >Haggridd
> >
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed May  2 00:35:23 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:35:23 -0000
Subject: Questions
In-Reply-To: <c6.14ffaa50.281fea7d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9cnkob+bvpp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17983

Hi Toby!
> 
> 2- Does each house have a ghost, and if so, who are the ghosts of 
Hufflepuff 
> and Ravenclaw? (This may be answered in SS, but currently my husband 
is 
> reading it, and I am unable to consult it)

I read someone's response about the Fat Friar being the ghost of 
Hufflepuff, which is true.  The Bloody Baron is the Slytherin ghost 
(and would I love to know more about him!), we already know Nearly 
Headless Nick from Gryffindor, and the Grey Lady is the Ravenclaw 
ghost (I actually found her in SS).
> 
> 
> 4- Which houses were Harry's parents in?

I could have sworn that it was mentioned that James Potter was the 
Gryffindor Seeker - am I mad for thinking that?
> 
Hope that was a bit helpful.

--jenny from ravenclaw**************************************




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed May  2 02:01:21 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 03:01:21 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.
References: <9ck769+2si4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003401c0d2ab$c93c80c0$a53570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 17984

Egg On My Head said:

<<This is a pet theory I have been harbouring for some time, and have tried
out on a few people and developed.  Basically it is an
 explanation for those who insist on believing that J.K. Rowling must  have
got her ideas from somewhere.  Basically, my problem is that we  are never
told how the muggle killings that characterised voldemorts reign were
explained - memory charms cannot surely destroy memories  of loved ones.  My
idea is that as the muggle prime minister is in contact with the minister
for magic, the magic minister (mm) aranged  with the prime inister (pm) so
that all the troubles in northern  Ieland of the seventies and eighties were
invented - therefore any  killing was as a result of magic - and the
troubles were invented as an excuse - to stop any muggles getting
suspicious.  The few  terrorist activitis were commited by death eaters -
unwilling to  admit defeat - the recent rise of voldemort would explain the
recent  upsurge in terrorist activity.>>

Hi Egg on My Head (I hope that isn't your regular name!),

Welcome to the group.

I think that JKR may have drawn on her general knowledge of terrorism and
intolerance in the world in her portrayal of the Death Eaters, but I doubt
that she would have consciously used Northern Ireland as a specific example
in the way you imply.  The troubles in Northern Ireland have brought very
real death and destruction to that part of the UK and for anyone living
there (or in the UK as a whole) it remains a sensitive subject.

The level of terrorist activity in mainland Britain has been quite low
compared to that in Northern Ireland.  If your theory were true, which is
unlikely, IMO, there would have to have been a disproportionate number
'magical' deaths in Northern Ireland and I don't see anything in the books
that suggests that Voldemort's reign of terror was focused there.

[Admin note:  We can't get too deeply into the political element of this, as
there is still a ban on politically-sensitive discussions on this list].

On the general point you led with, I'm sure that most writers are influenced
or inspired by the world around them.  An interesting aspect of fantasy
writing is how much of the real world creeps in and how much is left to pure
invention (if there is such a thing).  I'd say that fantasy writing
generally has its anchors in the real world and I like the way JKR uses this
connection between fantasy and reality as an opportunity to explain the
magical causes of mysterious or even actual events in the real Muggle*
world.

Neil

* Ahem - not associated with Real Muggles [TM]
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May  2 00:26:17 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:26:17 -0000
Subject: Questions
In-Reply-To: <c6.14ffaa50.281fea7d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9cnk79+mbbo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17985

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:

Oh goody, trivia!!!!

> 1- Which Professor is head of Ravenclaw?
> 

Professor Flitwick, JKR said so in an interview.

> 2- Does each house have a ghost, and if so, who are the ghosts of 
Hufflepuff 
> and Ravenclaw?

Hufflepuff - Fat Friar
Ravenclaw - Grey Lady
Slytherin - Bloody Baron
Gryffindor - Nearly Headless Nick

JKR says that the Grey Lady is the Ravenclaw ghost in an interview.  
Harry and Ron pass her in the hallway in PS/SS (I think), but she is 
not referred to by name.  The other 3 ghosts are introduced, along 
with their House affiliations, in PS/SS

> 3- Do the Gryffindors ever have class with the Ravelclaws?
> 

Not unless they have Astronomy together - I think thats the only 
class we never see.


> 4- Which houses were Harry's parents in?
> 
Gryffindor, again JKR says so in an interview.  Actually IIRC, she 
says that Lily was in Gryffindor, and then when someone asks What 
position James played on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, she says 
chaser (or maybe keeper?), implying that the questioner was correct 
in the assumption that James was also in Gryffindor.

--Joywitch




From moragt at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 00:13:07 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:13:07 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA 1-2 - Muggle Places -one more Scot
Message-ID: <LAW2-F44VTwMEbb4pgS0000c0ca@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17986

Amy Z wrote:
<big snip>
> >--At first I thought that perhaps in his fascination for Muggles
> >Arthur might have gotten a telephone for the Burrow, but on second
> >thought I'm not sure that this is possible.
>
>I bet it would work (Hogwarts is a special case; also, think of all
>the mixed Muggle/wizard households), but it would involve all sorts of
>things Arthur doesn't remotely know about--calling up the phone
>company, using credit cards, having Muggle post, etc.  As of GF they
>don't have one, 'cause Molly uses the village phone to order the
>taxis.

Agree - and re Ron's shouting - if it was (as is likely) an old-fashioned 
red phone box, they are pretty solid, and would muffle the sound quite well.

>Steve wrote:
>
> >So where does that word "Eeylops" come from? Anyone have an idea?
>
>No idea, but the associations for me are Eeyore and Cyclops.  What
>purveyors of owls would have to do with gloomy one-eyed donkeys is
>anybody's guess.
LOL!  I love this!  My guess would be it's an old English surname, or 
place-name.
>
>While we're on Muggle places, I have a question for anyone familiar
>with King's Cross:  would platform 9 3/4 be outdoors or in?  I always
>pictured it as the underground, but finally noticed that there are a
>lot of owls hooting through the mist in GF 11.  So part of it at least
>is
>aboveground.
All the platforms at King's X are above ground, with the end nearest the 
barrier being under a very high roof and the other end in the open air.
>Amanda wrote:
>
> >Scrooge McDuck. Considering him with Scotty, I'm amazed you guys get
>any
> >credibility at all.....
>
>Oh, man, I'd forgotten about him.  The accent aside, he is a very
>nasty stereotype--the cheap, rich Scot.  Someone please tell me Disney
>has retired him.

*Rich* Scot??  Not too many of those...(nor mean i.e. cheap ones either) I 
suppose Disney was thinking of Andrew Carnegie :)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 00:17:17 2001
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Here's a very strange thought I had about  Dumbledore and Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <9clckg+cdk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010502001717.20802.qmail@web3703.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17987


--- child_of_rain_1999 at yahoo.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski
> <editor at t...> wrote:
> > catherine at c... wrote:
> > 
> > > (I did consider whether Dumbledore could be
> related to Voldemort's
> > > mother, but she is descended from Slytherin and
> Dumbledore is a
> > > Gryffindor, so this again seems very unlikely.)
> > 
> > Has JKR said in a chat or someplace that
> Dumbledore was a 
> Gryffindor?
> > 
> > And the houses are just that, houses at a school.
> It doesn't 
> dictate all
> > your social interactions in the future.
> Intermarrying does happen, 
> and
> > there can be members of more than one house in one
> family.
> > 
> > --Amanda
> 
> 
> Yes, Dumbledore was in Gryffindor. It was stated by
> Hermione on the 
> train to Hogwarts (SS/PS). She said something along
> the lines 
> of, "...Gryffindor seems by far the best. Dumbledore
> himself was in 
> Gryffindor..." (I don't have the book with me now,
> but that's 
> basically what she said.)
> 
> JK Rowling has told us Dumbledore was a Gryffindor
> in several 
> interviews, too.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Dumbledore is not related to Riddle.
> He said 
> Voldermort was the last remaining decendant of
> Salazar Slytherin. On 
> the other hand, you would need information from
> someone other than 
> Dumbledore to really trust his words. If he really
> was related to 
> Riddle I don't think he'd want students gossiping
> about it. You could 
> make the argument that he was lying about Riddle's
> family.
> 
> Icicle,
> Webmstrss. of The Hogwarts Tower of Time
> http://www.geocities.com/child_of_rain_1999
> 
> Just because Voldie was related to Salazaar,does not
mean that Dumbledor has to be a descendant of Salazaar
also. They could still be related.
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 00:57:19 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:57:19 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
Message-ID: <9cnm1f+69h0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17988

Recently I attended a class at the San Francisco Jung Institute, and 
while I was there obtained a copy of their quarterly journal. Lo and 
behold, I open it up and what do I find? THREE articles on Harry 
Potter! Two are positive, one is negative. 

The one negative essay, considering the nature of the other articles 
in the journal, seems to be a token article; whoever was putting it 
together decided, "Well, we have to show all sides" and tossed it in 
there. It is the only one of the three that I would not 
call "scholarly" (the other two are reviews of the books using 
Jungian psychology). Written by Harold Bloom, and originally 
appearing in The Wall Street Journal, the negative article ("Can 35 
Million Book Buyers Be Wrong? Yes.") focuses on how HP is not well-
written and in fact full of cliches. Bloom finds Hogwarts "tiresome," 
and says that, "When the future witches and wizards of Great Britain 
are not studying how to cast a spell, they preoccupy themselves with 
bizarre intramural sports." ^_^

It should be noted that the author read only the first book (which 
someone told him was the best -- *shrugs* -- I myself greatly prefer 
both the third and the fourth). I found everything in the article to 
be a complete matter of opinion. (He didn't like Quidditch! *sigh* If 
you can't like something like Quidditch, than there's no hope for you 
to like HP in general.)

However, the other two articles are very interesting, especially if 
one knows anything about Jungian psychology. The first article, a 
short one called "The Ghost of Moaning Myrtle Who Haunts the First 
Floor Toilet, Platform Nine and Three Quarters at King's Cross 
Station . . . and all that" by Marilyn Nagy at first discusses HP in 
relation to other British children's literature such as Oliver Twist 
and Little Men. Specifically, she focuses on HP as a moral tale. For 
instance, in relation to that often-quoted passage in CS when 
Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we 
truly are, far more than our abilities," Nagy says, "What the 
presence of the grown-ups signifies, I believe, is counsel against 
despair, and most particularly, against a belief that our decision-
making is a matter of moral indifference." 

Shortly after this, the article makes a transition into an essay on 
defining the Jungian movement as a moral heritage when Nagy 
claims, "The drama of the analytical process is like the drama of the 
morality story and both of these, of course, are meant to be 
symbolically as close to real life as can be." In the end, Nagy sums 
up by saying, "The surprise -- and I keep thinking that Owl Post is 
going to drop a Howler in my lap if I dare to say this -- is that 
here we are in the year 2000 with a grand new hero in a magnificent 
story which is a morality tale. It mirrors the morality tales of 150 
years ago, and has very near relatives in all the morality stories I 
can ever remember reading."

Hah, take that all those people who call HP "amoral" or "immoral."

The second article, "The Secrets of Harry Potter" by Gail A. 
Grynbaum, is much longer -- 32 pages in fact -- and approaches HP 
from a truly psychological (as opposed to moral or literary) point of 
view. It summarizes all four books and calls them an "alchemical 
reading experience, a revelation of secrets and strata previously 
reserved to the contemplation of the woodcuts in Jung's essays on 
alchemy or to the Jungian analysis of dreams." If you are familiar 
with Jungian psychology, you will know that this is a highly 
complimentary statement.

Grynbaum focuses on both the dreamlike atmosphere of HP and on the 
archetypes that are present: that of the Orphan, the Vampire, and the 
Resilient Young Masculine. I, myself, (though I am no Jungian expert) 
would add the Wise Old Man and David vs. Goliath to that list. The 
article explores some of the mythology behind the books (the origin 
of the names of Harry's parents, for instance -- St. James was the 
patron saint of alchemists and physicians, and a lily represents 
purity, immortality, salvation, and the Virgin Mary), as well as the 
psychology behind the books (I'm betting that JKR herself would be 
very interested in reading this, since I doubt she ever had any of 
this in mind). One section bares the rather silly name (I think) 
of "Quidditch Player of the Soul" (^_^). The article also goes 
into "Harry Potter as a Contemporary Shaman," saying that, "Harry 
Potter is an inspiring vision of a contemporary Western shaman with 
whom a hope lies that he will show us how to retrieve lost soul."

Finally, "The Secrets of Harry Potter" has this to say about HP's 
fans: "Perhaps Harry Potter's fans constitute a generation across age 
lines that feels somewhat orphaned and unprotected and, along with 
Harry, know the despair of spiritual emptiness and emotional 
starvation." Hm . . . I don't know that I agree with that.

I enjoyed the articles, but after this I don't think I will ever 
again think that we here at HP4GU's delve into the books in too much 
detail. :)

Stacy




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 14:20:05 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:20:05 -0000
Subject: Slytherin - Scots & other audio issues - McGonagall - Italian
Message-ID: <9cmgml+jauc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17989

Catlady wrote:

>Salazar's argument was that Muggle-born students were a security risk
>who might tell other Muggles about wizards and witches 

Is this in canon or is this part of the voluminous and creative 
Catlady-generated backstory?  I'm too tired to hunt up the relevant 
passages.

Catherine wrote:

>Interestingly, there is only one passage in the whole four books in 
>which I have disagreed with Stephen Fry's interpretation.  It was the 
>way he says Hermione's "Neville" after the first DADA lesson with Mad 
>Eye Moody.  I only noticed it, because it was the first time I had 
>thought - no that doesn't sound quite right.

How does he have her say it?  I wish I could hear the SF versions.  
All I've heard are some of the little bits on the audiobooks website.

Re: the Sorting Hat songs, Dale sings the second one (GF) but recites 
the first (SS).  

Re: Scots, it dawned on me, now on my third time listening to the Dale 
GF, that his Moody sounds an awful lot like Sean Connery.  Anyone want 
to comment on possible movie casting?  (SC is too handsome for the 
role, I would say--but perhaps if he would consent to having a chunk 
taken out of his nose...)  Catherine: aside from her name, McGonagall 
also wears a tartan dressing gown and puts thistles in her hat.  So 
there is a lot of support for Dale's McGonagall with an Edinburgh 
accent, IMO.

JD is very consistent with his accents--amazingly so--but I am bugged 
by his Crouch Sr., who starts out well, but quickly (by chapter 9) 
turns into a soundalike of Fudge.  It's okay for two characters to 
sound alike, but these two need to be distinguised from each other, 
IMO.

Rita wrote:

>Someone told some list that McGonagall was the surname of some guy 
who
>is widely believed to have been the worst poet ever in the English
>language.

The Book of Failures (by Stephen Pile, pub. Dutton, 1979) calls him 
"the worst British poet."  I will post details to OT-chatter.

Rita also wrote:

>If Parvati Patil is a Hindu, at least if she is a Shavite or a 
>Shakta (would that be Shaktini for a female?), she knows that 
>Parvati and Kali are the same person.

Madhuri or someone, correct me if I'm wrong, but:  A lot of Hindu gods 
and goddesses have multiple forms, but they aren't exactly the same 
person.  Roughly speaking, Durga is the warlike, and Kali the 
positively bloodthirsty, aspect of the goddess who is elsewhere the 
sweet and gentle Parvati.  It's cool that the Italian translator knew 
about Kali-Parvati, but why not just keep her name Parvati?

Craig, thanks for the terrific info on Italian.  Your suggestions are 
so good!  Maybe you can land the translation job for OoP.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------------
                       Happy May Day!

 "Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed
 by one and all."  -The Internationale (Billy Bragg trans.)
------------------------------------------------------------




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May  2 05:05:10 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:05:10 -0000
Subject: religion in Hong Kong
In-Reply-To: <9cei1g+6l6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9co4i6+cs60@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17991

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> This is the information that I found when I checked the religion in 
> Hong Kong:
> 
> "Buddhism and Taoism are the main religions in Hong Kong, while 
> Confucianism, a set of moral codes, is widely held. Buddhist and 
> Taoist deities are present in about 600 Chinese temples in Hong 
Kong. 
> The most popular deities are those associated with the sea and the 
> weather. 
> 
> Other religions in Hong Kong are Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Sikh 
and 
> Jewish faiths. There are many Catholic and Protestant churches and 
> places of worship throughout the territory."
> 
> Doreen


The U.S. Department of State estimates that 10% of the people in Hong 
Kong are Christian.

Other information from various sites on the web basically say that 
the people in Hong Kong, like China, have as their major religions, 
Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism..
There are of course many types of Buddhism, and many think 
Confucianism is a philosophy, not a religion...etc. etc.

I find it most interesting that Kuan Yin - the Chinese (and 
Vietnamese) GodDESS of mercy and compassion is one of the more 
popular deities.........

Susan




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed May  2 04:31:41 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 04:31:41 -0000
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9co2jd+3r2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17992

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrew Preston <ajpresto at y...> wrote:
> HP PoA 1-2 

> Questions:
> 
> 1)	Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let 
somebody get under them and then blow them up?

I think that a full blown wizard would have more self-discipline in 
that respect. However we have to remember that Harry is a 13 year old 
boy who doesn't always have control over his emotions. When Marge 
insults his parents he loses it and what control he has over his 
magic. Emotions are a powerful thing that can cause people to do 
things they wouldn't normally do.  


> 2)How do they get Marge off the ceiling?
> 3)What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do   
better in Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)

The Ministry agents puncture Marge and then perform some memory
charms so that she doesn't remember about being blown up. 

As for the Dursleys I'm not sure that they will ever do more than 
tolorate Harry. IMO they put up with him because Dumbledore has made 
it where they have to. I'm thinking that there are charms placed on 
the house and the Dursley's themselves may have charms placed around 
them so that they can't leave Harry. (this was discussed last week I 
think)


> 4)What did Harry think he was doing, running out into the street?  
>   He can't apparate


Again this goes back to strong emotions. He's just blown up his "aunt"
Marge and he's finally had it with the rest of the Dursleys. Harry 
just wants out. He's not really thinking at this point he's reacting.
Later when he's walked a few blocks and calmed down does he realize 
what he's done. Then he begins to worry about being put in Azkaban 
for illeagal use of magic, where he's going to go, and how is he 
going to get to London.

Thanks Andrew for the great summary. 

Cheers,

     Kristin

 p.s. Is everyone else's posts taking a long time too load today or 
is it just me? 




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 03:38:48 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 03:38:48 -0000
Subject: Magic in the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9cmgse+recj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cnvg8+7vne@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17993

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:

I thought this essay from 
> Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology does an 
admirably 
> balanced job of outlining how magic is viewed in Scripture 
(Surprise! 
> It's not totally negative)

Are you talking about supernatural power when you use the word 
magic?  Supernatural power/miracles come from either a divine or a 
demonic source. Obviously the demonic source would be the negative!


> 
> Magic [N] [E] 
> 
> The Old Testament. Magic?the attempt to exploit supernatural powers 
> by formulaic recitations to achieve goals that were otherwise 
> unrealizable?was seen in a negative light in the Old Testament 


(quite a bit of deleting)

Magic

The attempt or supposed ability to cause changes to result in 
conformity with one's will or desires by invoking or employing 
spirits or other extradimensional entities or beings, and/or 
utilizing mysterious, invisible, or relatively unknown or codified 
forces, powers, guidelines, rules, or laws, thereby influencing, 
controlling, or manipulating reality for one's own purposes.  Magic 
is synonymous with sorcery.  As used here, it is to be distinguished 
from mere prestidigitation or sleight of hand.  In some occultic 
circles it is spelled magick to distinguish it from prestidigitation.



However, many of the banned terms (primarily in Deut 
> 18:10-11) have defied easy explanation, including child sacrifice 
> (possibly used for divinatory purposes Deut 18:10; 2 Kings 21:6), 
> types of divination (Num 23:23; Deut 18:10-11; 1 Sam 15:23; 2 Kings 
> 17:17; Micah 3:6), sorceries (Exod 22:18; Deut 18:11; Jer 27:9; 
Micah 
> 5:12; Mal 3:5), and necromancy (1 Sam 28).


The Bible condemns all forms of the occult-divination, magic/sorcery, 
and spiritism-in numberous passages throughout both the Old and New 
Testaments.  For instance, in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 God's view of 
occultism is clearly expressed:  "let no one be found among you who 
sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination 
or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in withcraft, or casts spell, 
or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.  Anyone who 
does these things is detestable to the LORD.

Even if this were the only biblical passage on the occult, it would 
be clear that all forms of the occult are denounced by God.  Yet this 
is only one of many condemnatory references to occultist and 
occultism (see Lev. 19.26,31; 20:6; 2Kings 17:10-17; 21:1-6; 23:24-
25; 2 Chron. 33:6; Isa. 8:19-20; 47:12-15; Acts 13:6-12; 16:16-18; 
Gal. 5:19-20; Rev. 9:21; 21:8, 22:15).

In the Old Testament references, two Hebrew words are primarily used 
for divination: the verb nahash (or nahas) and the verb qasam.  The 
verb nahash is found in numerous passages (Deut. 18:10; Lev 19:26; 2 
Kings 17:17; 21:6; 2 Chron. 33:6)  While it is variously translated 
into English, the word literally means to practice divination, 
divine, practice fortune-telling, observe signs or omens, or learn by 
omens.

Deuteronomy 18:10 leaves no doubt about God's perspective.

The nominal form of habar is heber (or cheber).  It is found in many 
passages in the Old Testament.  There are several meanings for heber, 
depending on the context, but this will focus on heber as a spell or 
enchantment or a charmer or enchanter.  A variant of haber, heber 
reflects the sense of bind, cast a spell, except in a few places.  
The usual translation is 'enchantments' referring to the means the 
charmers employed to influence people or the result of their charming 
efforts (Deut 18:11).  All aspects were divinely forbidden to 
covenant people.  The occultic practices of charming, enchanting, or 
spell casting are condemned, and those who attempt such spells are 
held in contempt by God.

Deuteronomy 18:14 states:  "The nations you will dispossess listen to 
those who practice sorcery or divination.  But as for you, the LORD 
your God has not permitted you to do so."





Foreign magicians in Scripture did not 
> invoke help of their gods for magical formulas, but often called 
upon 
> self-operating forces that were independent of the gods (Isa 47:13; 
> the monotheistic Israelites did not accept the existence of the 
> foreign gods ). Moreover, the biblical writers seemed to attribute 
a 
> reality to magical power that it did not ascribe to the gods. Magic 
> was considered human rebellion that unlocked divine secrets, making 
> humanity equal with God.

The context of Isaiah 47 is a prediction of Bablyon's impending 
judgment for, among other things, magic/sorcery such as spell casting 
and practicing astrology.  The coming judgment upon Bablon is likened 
to a consuming fire.  God taunts them to see and then by their 
supposed magical powers deliver themselves from his righteous wrath.  
Ironically, they cannot predict through astrology their own coming 
catastrophe, let alone save themselves or anyone else from God's 
inevitable judgment for their many transgressions, including the 
practice of magic and divination.


These two were 
> looked upon by Paul as examples of those who opposed the truth. The 
> one who had a spirit of divination (Gk. pneuma python normally a 
> spirit connected with the Delphic oracle Acts 16:16) was forced to 
> acknowledge Jesus, but the apostles did not accept this testimony 
> because of the ungodly source.


The New Testament reiterates the teaching of the Old Testament on the 
occult and divination.  In the New Testament, Acts 16:16-18 is the 
only express case addressed of someone practicing divination.  Verse 
16 says, "And it happened that as we were going to the place of 
prayet, a certain slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, 
who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.  the key 
phrase is that she had "a spirit of divination" (Greek pneuma 
pythona).  In the Greek text it literally reads she had "a spirit of 
a python."  By this spirit she practiced fortune-telling (Greek 
manteuomene).

Acts 16:16 tells us that the girl was a soothsayer-ventriloquist and 
that she thus stood in relation to the demonic.  While there are 
different understandings as to the exact meaning of the phrase pneuma 
pythona found in Acts 16:16, it is understood that the girl was 
possessed by a spirit through whom she practiced divination or 
fortune-telling.  The biblical perspective is that this spirit was a 
demonic spirit and that the girl was involved in a forbidden 
practice.  Thus, the apostle Paul, in the name of Jesus Christ, cast 
the demonic spirit (of divination) out of the girl (Acts 16:18).

The biblical perspective is that necromancy implies involvement with 
evil spirits-demonic spirits-who masquerade as departed individuals.  
However, the possession of the slave girl by a spirit of divination 
is not technically a form of necromancy.  The slave girl was involved 
in a form of mediumship/spiritism.  Necromancy is one form of 
spiritism that is attempted through contact witht he dead.  There is 
no evidence, however, that the slave girl was contacting the dead.  
Therefore, this was a form of mediumistic divination but not 
necromancy.  (If necromancy is practice by a medium or a person going 
into a trance state, then necromancy is also a form of mediumship.  
If necromancy is practiced to obtain information, then it is also a 
form of divination.  Whether referring to one who consults or 
inquires of the dead, or otherwise, the biblical teaching on 
mediumship and necromancy is the same:  They are roundly condemned 
(Deut. 18:10-11; 1 Chron. 10:13).  Indeed, necromancy (as with all 
other forms of mediumship) was so contrary to God's commands that its 
practitioners were under the death penalty (Deut.13)

Thought I would just share some info that I had!  I didn't have time 
to comment on all the verses.

Koinonia



The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.
W. Foerster. 
Craig S. Hawkins.


 




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 07:26:51 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:26:51 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
References: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00a001c0d2d9$433d4940$82481c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 17994

>
> 1) Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let
somebody get
>   under them and then blow them up?

I think those were hormones talking in Harry. I mean, I too have/had
relatives I would have loved to blow up for being nasty.

> 2) How do they get Marge off the ceiling?

Game of Darts? *l* seriously, the book says they punctured her if I
remember correctly.

> 3) What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do
better in
>  Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)

I believe they did a memory charm on Marge, and the Dursleys would
rather be caught dead than tell Marge what happened to her and why
Harry ran away. I can believe the Dursleys would tell Marge that Harry
is ungrateful and ran away. Marge is going to believe that. She
doesn't have a high opinion of Harry anyway. Why she would believe
that Harry goes to a school for Criminally incurable Boys, but then
gets to spend his summers at "home" rather than having to stay at
school, is beyond my understanding.

> 4) What did Harry think he was doing, running out into the street?
He can't
>   apparate.

I would say, another case of not thinking. He's acting on impulses,
not on brainpower. He's proven to do so numerous times. He acts like
many other teenager his age do.

Rena




From booleanfox at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 07:59:03 2001
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com (booleanfox at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 07:59:03 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix 
Message-ID: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17995

I have seen on the BBC's Newsround website (for those non-Brits, 
Newsround is like a children's version of the news) that JKR has 
revealed that Harry is to visit somewhere in Book 5 that we have read 
about but that we haven't been to yet.

They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the Ministry of 
Magic, but it got me thinking...

I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban - surely no matter what 
awful things might happen in OoP he's still just a child and won't be 
sent there (as is =made= to go there) or be imprisoned?  And by the 
same token surely he wouldn't want to visit the place voluntarily, 
(unless he is trying to overcome his fear of Dementors?) - can anyone 
think of anybody he'd want to go and see, unless (GASP!) Sirius is 
caught!!!! (I'm thinking out loud as I type here, as you can probably 
tell...)

Overall, I think I would like to see him visit the Ministry of Magic, 
or perhaps St Mungos with Neville to see the Longbottoms - I'd like 
the troika's friendship with Neville to strengthen as he needs a 
friend and Harry has just found out a lot of upsetting stuff about 
him.

Anyone else got any thoughts on all this?

Love Boolean the Fox

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml






From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 03:01:36 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 03:01:36 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
Message-ID: <9cntag+3gdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17996

Recently I attended a class at the San Francisco Jung Institute, and 
while I was there obtained a copy of their quarterly journal. Lo and 
behold, I open it up and what do I find? THREE articles on Harry 
Potter! Two are positive, one is negative. 

The one negative essay, considering the nature of the other articles 
in the journal, seems to be a token article; whoever was putting it 
together decided, "Well, we have to show all sides" and tossed it in 
there. It is the only one of the three that I would not 
call "scholarly" (the other two are reviews of the books using 
Jungian psychology). Written by Harold Bloom, and originally 
appearing in The Wall Street Journal, the negative article ("Can 35 
Million Book Buyers Be Wrong? Yes.") focuses on how HP is not well-
written and in fact full of cliches. Bloom finds Hogwarts "tiresome," 
and says that, "When the future witches and wizards of Great Britain 
are not studying how to cast a spell, they preoccupy themselves with 
bizarre intramural sports." ^_^

It should be noted that the author read only the first book (which 
someone told him was the best -- *shrugs* -- I myself greatly prefer 
both the third and the fourth). I found everything in the article to 
be a complete matter of opinion. (He didn't like Quidditch! *sigh* If 
you can't like something like Quidditch, than there's no hope for you 
to like HP in general.)

However, the other two articles are very interesting, especially if 
one knows anything about Jungian psychology. The first article, a 
short one called "The Ghost of Moaning Myrtle Who Haunts the First 
Floor Toilet, Platform Nine and Three Quarters at King's Cross 
Station . . . and all that" by Marilyn Nagy at first discusses HP in 
relation to other British children's literature such as Oliver Twist 
and Little Men. Specifically, she focuses on HP as a moral tale. For 
instance, in relation to that often-quoted passage in CS when 
Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we 
truly are, far more than our abilities," Nagy says, "What the 
presence of the grown-ups signifies, I believe, is counsel against 
despair, and most particularly, against a belief that our decision-
making is a matter of moral indifference." 

Shortly after this, the article makes a transition into an essay on 
defining the Jungian movement as a moral heritage when Nagy 
claims, "The drama of the analytical process is like the drama of the 
morality story and both of these, of course, are meant to be 
symbolically as close to real life as can be." In the end, Nagy sums 
up by saying, "The surprise -- and I keep thinking that Owl Post is 
going to drop a Howler in my lap if I dare to say this -- is that 
here we are in the year 2000 with a grand new hero in a magnificent 
story which is a morality tale. It mirrors the morality takes of 150 
years ago, and has very near relatives in all the morality stories I 
can ever remember reading."

Hah, take that all those people who call HP "amoral" or "immoral."

The second article, "The Secrets of Harry Potter" by Gail A. 
Grynbaum, is much longer -- 32 pages in fact -- and approaches HP 
from a truly psychological (as opposed to moral or literary) point of 
view. It summarizes all four books and calls them an "alchemical 
reading experience, a revelation of secrets and strata previously 
reserved to the contemplation of the woodcuts in Jung's essays on 
alchemy or to the Jungian analysis of dreams." If you are familiar 
with Jungian psychology, you will know that this is a highly 
complimentary statement.

Grynbaum focuses on both the dreamlike atmosphere of HP and on the 
archetypes that are present: that of the Orphan, the Vampire, and the 
Resilient Young Masculine. I, myself, (though I am no Jungian expert) 
would add the Wise Old Man and David vs. Goliath to that list. The 
article explores some of the mythology behind the books (the origin 
of the names of Harry's parents, for instance -- St. James was the 
patron saint of alchemists and physicians, and a lily represents 
purity, immortality, salvation, and the Virgin Mary), as well as the 
psychology behind the books (I'm betting that JKR herself would be 
very interested in reading this, since I doubt she ever had any of 
this in mind). One section bares the rather silly name (I think) 
of "Quidditch Player of the Soul" (^_^). It also goes into "Harry 
Potter as a Contemporary Shaman," saying that, "Harry Potter is an 
inspiring vision of a contemporary Western shaman with whom a hope 
lies that he will show us how to retrieve lost soul."

Finally, Grynbaum has this to say about HP fans: "Perhaps Harry 
Potter's fans constitute a generation across age lines that feels 
somewhat orphaned and unprotected and, along with Harry, know the 
dispair of spiritual emptiness and emotional starvation." I don't 
know that I agree with that.

I enjoyed these articles, but never again will I think that we here 
at HP4GU's delve into these books too deeply!

Stacy





From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May  2 05:45:49 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:45:49 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <9cla23+ka7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9co6ud+jqji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17997

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> "Oh, goodness, I couldn't disagree more..I loved Richard Harris in 
> Camelot. I was quite worried when he seemed not very interested in 
> the part of Albus Dumbledore (he who is the character with whom I 
> identify most)...but THEN..I read that his granddaughter was most 
> excited about his role as AD..I knew then he would put his heart 
into 
> it...
>  
> "Remember...that one of the Weasleys (Ron?) blithely says that oh 
> yes, 
> Dumbledore is quite mad, oh yes...certainly such a person would not 
> have a neatly trimmed..beard..and he is how old? 160?"
> 
> --150. Yes I agree that Richard Harris looks perfect as Dumbledore, 
> though I'll pass judgement on his acting when the film comes out. 
His 
> beard is just the right length, and very Merlin-esque. As for his 
> being a bit mad, well he is, but then aren't most good teachers?

> 
> Scott

Certainly, there are a fair number of people, including teachers, who 
are quite good people, but uh, somewhat eccentric? 

Susan




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 05:07:21 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:07:21 -0000
Subject: What is permissible? (was Re: A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.)
In-Reply-To: <003401c0d2ab$c93c80c0$a53570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9co4m9+8rha@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17998

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Egg On My Head said:
> 
> <<This is a pet theory I have been harbouring for some time, and 
have tried
> out on a few people and developed.  Basically it is an
>  explanation for those who insist on believing that J.K. Rowling 
must  have
> got her ideas from somewhere.  Basically, my problem is that we 
are 
never
> told how the muggle killings that characterised voldemorts reign 
were
> explained - memory charms cannot surely destroy memories  of loved 
ones.  My
> idea is that as the muggle prime minister is in contact with the 
minister
> for magic, the magic minister (mm) aranged  with the prime inister 
(pm) so
> that all the troubles in northern  Ieland of the seventies and 
eighties were
> invented - therefore any  killing was as a result of magic - and the
> troubles were invented as an excuse - to stop any muggles getting
> suspicious.  The few  terrorist activitis were commited by death 
eaters -
> unwilling to  admit defeat - the recent rise of voldemort would 
explain the
> recent  upsurge in terrorist activity.>>
> 
> Hi Egg on My Head (I hope that isn't your regular name!),
> 
> Welcome to the group.
> 
> I think that JKR may have drawn on her general knowledge of 
terrorism and
> intolerance in the world in her portrayal of the Death Eaters, but
I 
doubt
> that she would have consciously used Northern Ireland as a specific 
example
> in the way you imply.  The troubles in Northern Ireland have
brought 
very
> real death and destruction to that part of the UK and for anyone 
living
> there (or in the UK as a whole) it remains a sensitive subject.
> 
> The level of terrorist activity in mainland Britain has been quite 
low
> compared to that in Northern Ireland.  If your theory were true, 
which is
> unlikely, IMO, there would have to have been a disproportionate 
number
> 'magical' deaths in Northern Ireland and I don't see anything in
the 
books
> that suggests that Voldemort's reign of terror was focused there.
> 
> [Admin note:  We can't get too deeply into the political element of 
this, as
> there is still a ban on politically-sensitive discussions on this 
list].
> 
> On the general point you led with, I'm sure that most writers are 
influenced
> or inspired by the world around them.  An interesting aspect of 
fantasy
> writing is how much of the real world creeps in and how much is
left 
to pure
> invention (if there is such a thing).  I'd say that fantasy writing
> generally has its anchors in the real world and I like the way JKR 
uses this
> connection between fantasy and reality as an opportunity to explain 
the
> magical causes of mysterious or even actual events in the real 
Muggle*
> world.
> 
> Neil
> 
I too am relatively new to this message board, and I am confused. I 
don't believe that anyone suggested that JKR wrote either an allegory 
or a roman-a-clef.  I also don't think that eggonmyface derived any 
vicarious pleasure from exploiting The Troubles.  In the recent past 
the message board has explored and indulged the topic of HP and 
Christianity far beyond my comfort level, especially as I felt that 
Mr. Abanes had no interest in honest discussion, but merely wanted to 
proclaim "THE TRUTH" as he saw it.  I dealt with it by ignoring 
messages with that title, and left it for those who did have an 
interest in pursuing the discussion.  No harm done. That topic was at 
least as sensitive as the troubles in Northern Ireland.  My point is 
that drawing any inference, any parallel, or any conclusion from any 
portion of the real world outside the covers of the seven present and 
planned HP books will offend the sensibilities of someone, somewhere, 
at sometime.  Where do we draw the line?  I hope that noone feels 
attacked, because I am attacking nobody.  The bounds of discussion is 
a topic of great interest to us all. 

Haggridd




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May  2 05:35:29 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:35:29 -0000
Subject: Movie: NEW STILLS!!!
In-Reply-To: <9cla23+ka7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9co6b1+687q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 17999

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> "Oh, goodness, I couldn't disagree more..I loved Richard Harris in 
> Camelot. I was quite worried when he seemed not very interested in 
> the part of Albus Dumbledore (he who is the character with whom I 
> identify most)...but THEN..I read that his granddaughter was most 
> excited about his role as AD..I knew then he would put his heart 
into 
> it...
>  
> "Remember...that one of the Weasleys (Ron?) blithely says that oh 
> yes, 
> Dumbledore is quite mad, oh yes...certainly such a person would not 
> have a neatly trimmed..beard..and he is how old? 160?"
> 
> --150. Yes I agree that Richard Harris looks perfect as Dumbledore, 
> though I'll pass judgement on his acting when the film comes out. 
His 
> beard is just the right length, and very Merlin-esque. As for his 
> being a bit mad, well he is, but then aren't most good teachers?
> 


> Scott

Yes, Scott, further I would suggest that many people who are
fascinating are a little eccentric, strange, and some people would 
say, quite mad....

Susan




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May  2 06:02:31 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 06:02:31 -0000
Subject: Questions
In-Reply-To: <c6.14ffaa50.281fea7d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9co7tn+igk8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18000


> 
> 1- Which Professor is head of Ravenclaw?

JKR said in an interview with Barnes and Noble.com that "(t)he head 
of Ravenclaw is good old Professor Flitwick!" You can find a 
transcript of that interview linked to the "sources of Lexicon 
information" page in the Lexicon's Help/About section.

> 
> 2- Does each house have a ghost, and if so, who are the ghosts of 
Hufflepuff 
> and Ravenclaw? 

The Fat Friar is identified as the ghost of Hufflepuff in SS. 
Ravenclaw's ghost is a little harder to spot, but she does appear 
unnamed in SS12. JKR showed some of her notes on the Today Show and 
after Ravenclaw, clearly legible, it said "Gray Lady." She said it 
also in an interview and mentioned that she had appeared in one of 
the books without being named.


By the way, the Lexicon is actually pretty reliable on details like 
this. I don't put it in there unless there's some pretty strong 
evidence (such as an inteview) to back it up. I invite you to have a 
look at the Lexicon to find answers to these kinds of questions. If 
the answer is available, chances are it's listed there.

On the other hand, most of us really get excited about trying to 
answer these kinds of questions off the top of our heads, so fire 
away!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has pages for each of the houses (and a page for the ghosts too)
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 13:29:26 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:29:26 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re: Nearly Headless Nick
Message-ID: <F140dTfMqiXYd4YfEED0000cacb@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18001

Maybe they just sort of doused him? I don't have any evidence to back that 
up, but presumably they were able to do SOMETHING!


Cait (It's not a flint, it's creative omission! ^_^)
Wenna (Yeah, whatever. Can you eat it?)
and Bou (CWC) (...)

Corgi Haiku: "Are you going to eat that?"
             "Are you going to eat that?" If not
              Then I will eat that.


>From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question re: Nearly Headless Nick
>Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 08:48:15 -0000
>
>I have searched the archives for an answer to this, and can't find
>one, but I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned before, so
>apologies if I've just missed it.
>
>In CoS, is Nearly Headless Nick revived?  I can't see how he could
>be, because he wouldn't be able to take the mandrake potion.  I've
>also realised that I can't find a reference to him in any either PoA
>or GoF.  Does this mean that he is still petrified?
>
>Has JKR deliberately ignored solving this particular problem, as she
>doesn't know how to?  In which case, why didn't she not have him see
>the Basilisk in the first place?  He could have been facing Justin
>Fitch-Fletchley and not the Basilisk, and JFF would still be
>petrified and not dead.
>
>Or is it just a Flint?
>
>If someone could point me in the right direction, I would be
>grateful.  I know it is off-topic, but I have been wondering about it
>for a while.
>
>Catherine
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed May  2 13:51:04 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 14:51:04 +0100
Subject: Ghosts - a little nitpick (was Re: Questions)
In-Reply-To: <9co7tn+igk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKEEKDIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 18002

> 2- Does each house have a ghost, and if so, who are the ghosts of
> Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw?

Steve replied: <<<<The Fat Friar is identified as the ghost of Hufflepuff in SS.
Ravenclaw's ghost is a little harder to spot, but she does appear unnamed in
SS12. JKR showed some of her notes on the Today Show and after Ravenclaw,
clearly legible, it said "Gray Lady." She said it also in an interview and
mentioned that she had appeared in one of the books without being named.>>>

Being a little bit nitpicky here it is more likely to have said 'Grey Lady'. I
would be very surprised if Jo did not use the British spelling of grey.

An interesting side note would be this. If Prof. Binns has been at the school
for a long time, long enough to die (quiet literally) and do his best to bore
students to death, why is he not a house head. Or did they take this
responsibility away from him when he died. How long has he been dead? Will he
ever do anything useful? Or is he there to remind us all of those horrible
teachers/lecturers that we have had to put up with?


Simon
--
"I must confess the the activities of the UK governments for the past couple of
years have been watched with frank admiration and amazement by Lord Vetinari.
Outright theft as a policy had never occurred to him." - Terry Pratchett
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Wed May  2 15:26:00 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:26:00 -0700 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Minerva the Cat
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503C0FD@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 18003

Speaking of ties into the outside world...
Has anyone read the Redwall books by Brian Jacques?  I decided to give them
a try so I could try to read something not Harry-related for once, and I
have a few comments.  First of all, These books are critically acclaimed and
said to be 'good for children.'  I would agree with that, but I want to know
how HP gets a bad rap for being violent, or using drugs, etc. and this book
doesn't.  So far, half-way through the first book, several people have been
killed without remorse by a 'bad guy' (who happens to be a rat) who is happy
to kill anyone who stands in his way, even those close to him.  The same bad
guy's been healed using potions (made up by a vixen).  I don't see how this
is any better than HP, and in fact is much more graphic and violent.  Hmm.
 
The other thing I found interesting is the bad rat has a henchman named
Wormtail who lost his hand. Any ideas?
 
Mer

-----Original Message-----
From: meboriqua at aol.com [mailto:meboriqua at aol.com]
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:40 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Minerva the Cat


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> The movie _Our Miss Brookes_ is on right now.
> In it is a cat named Minerva.  Have I discovered
> an ulterior motive for McGonnegal's first name?  :)
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave

Good one!  Could be.  I always thought she was just named after the 
Goddess of Wisdom, but the fact that she is a cat, too...

Aren't we all so academic here?  :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw******************************************



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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 05:05:22 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:05:22 -0000
Subject: What is permissible? (was Re: A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.)
In-Reply-To: <003401c0d2ab$c93c80c0$a53570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9co4ii+h5oo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18004

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Egg On My Head said:
> 
> <<This is a pet theory I have been harbouring for some time, and 
have tried
> out on a few people and developed.  Basically it is an
>  explanation for those who insist on believing that J.K. Rowling 
must  have
> got her ideas from somewhere.  Basically, my problem is that we 
are 
never
> told how the muggle killings that characterised voldemorts reign 
were
> explained - memory charms cannot surely destroy memories  of loved 
ones.  My
> idea is that as the muggle prime minister is in contact with the 
minister
> for magic, the magic minister (mm) aranged  with the prime inister 
(pm) so
> that all the troubles in northern  Ieland of the seventies and 
eighties were
> invented - therefore any  killing was as a result of magic - and the
> troubles were invented as an excuse - to stop any muggles getting
> suspicious.  The few  terrorist activitis were commited by death 
eaters -
> unwilling to  admit defeat - the recent rise of voldemort would 
explain the
> recent  upsurge in terrorist activity.>>
> 
> Hi Egg on My Head (I hope that isn't your regular name!),
> 
> Welcome to the group.
> 
> I think that JKR may have drawn on her general knowledge of 
terrorism and
> intolerance in the world in her portrayal of the Death Eaters, but
I 
doubt
> that she would have consciously used Northern Ireland as a specific 
example
> in the way you imply.  The troubles in Northern Ireland have
brought 
very
> real death and destruction to that part of the UK and for anyone 
living
> there (or in the UK as a whole) it remains a sensitive subject.
> 
> The level of terrorist activity in mainland Britain has been quite 
low
> compared to that in Northern Ireland.  If your theory were true, 
which is
> unlikely, IMO, there would have to have been a disproportionate 
number
> 'magical' deaths in Northern Ireland and I don't see anything in
the 
books
> that suggests that Voldemort's reign of terror was focused there.
> 
> [Admin note:  We can't get too deeply into the political element of 
this, as
> there is still a ban on politically-sensitive discussions on this 
list].
> 
> On the general point you led with, I'm sure that most writers are 
influenced
> or inspired by the world around them.  An interesting aspect of 
fantasy
> writing is how much of the real world creeps in and how much is
left 
to pure
> invention (if there is such a thing).  I'd say that fantasy writing
> generally has its anchors in the real world and I like the way JKR 
uses this
> connection between fantasy and reality as an opportunity to explain 
the
> magical causes of mysterious or even actual events in the real 
Muggle*
> world.
> 
> Neil
> 
I too am relatively new to this message board, and I am confused. I 
don't believe that anyone suggested that JKR wrote either an allegory 
or a roman-a-clef.  I also don't think that eggonmyface derived any 
vicarious pleasure from exploiting The Troubles.  In the recent past 
the message board has explored and indulged the topic of HP and 
Christianity far beyond my comfort level, especially as I felt that 
Mr. Abanes had no interest in honest discussion, but merely wanted to 
proclaim "THE TRUTH" as he saw it.  I dealt with it by ignoring 
messages with that title, and left it for those who did have an 
interest in pursuing the discussion.  No harm done. That topic was at 
least as sensitive as the troubles in Northern Ireland.  My point is 
that drawing any inference, any parallel, or any conclusion from any 
portion of the real world outside the covers of the seven present and 
planned HP books will offend the sensibilities of someone, somewhere, 
at sometime.  Where do we draw the line?  I hope that noone feels 
attacked, because I am attacking nobody.  The bounds of discussion is 
a topic of great interest to us all. 

Haggridd




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 15:48:20 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:48:20 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cpa84+3rh8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18005





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., booleanfox at y... wrote:
 Harry is to visit somewhere in Book 5 that we have read 
> about but that we haven't been to yet.
> 
> They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the Ministry 
of 
> Magic, but it got me thinking...
>  
> Overall, I think I would like to see him visit the Ministry of 
Magic, 
> or perhaps St Mungos with Neville to see the Longbottoms - I'd like 
> the troika's friendship with Neville to strengthen as he needs a 
> friend and Harry has just found out a lot of upsetting stuff about 
> him.
> 
> Anyone else got any thoughts on all this?
> 
> Love Boolean the Fox
> 

Maybe Godric's Hollow -- maybe someone finally takes him there to see 
his old house (Sirius or Hagrid, maybe).  I'm trying to think of 
other places Harry's never been.  Hermione's house?  To see Charlie 
in Romania?  Past the first four choices, Azakaban, the MOM, St. 
Mungo's, and Godric's Hollow -- the choices get pretty slim, unless 
I'm missing something big (wouldn't be the first time).  My money's 
on Godric's Hollow or the MOM.

Stephanie  
(BTW -- what's up w/ the board, why aren't messages getting posted so 
quickly?  I couldn't get on hardly at all yesterday (hence, my 
confused double posting) and I notice that things are still really 
slow.  Have we finally blown up Yahoo! Groups with our chatter?  Is 
David Huang somewhere cursing our names?)




From margdean at erols.com  Wed May  2 15:13:29 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:13:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Minerva the Cat
References: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503C0FD@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <3AF02419.1C548B3@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18006

Meredith Wilson wrote:
> 
> Speaking of ties into the outside world...
> Has anyone read the Redwall books by Brian Jacques?  I decided to give them
> a try so I could try to read something not Harry-related for once, and I
> have a few comments.  First of all, These books are critically acclaimed and
> said to be 'good for children.'  I would agree with that, but I want to know
> how HP gets a bad rap for being violent, or using drugs, etc. and this book
> doesn't.  So far, half-way through the first book, several people have been
> killed without remorse by a 'bad guy' (who happens to be a rat) who is happy
> to kill anyone who stands in his way, even those close to him.  The same bad
> guy's been healed using potions (made up by a vixen).  I don't see how this
> is any better than HP, and in fact is much more graphic and violent.  Hmm.

Ah, but they don't use =magic!=  :)

I've read a few of the Redwall books, too; my elder son loves
them (as well as HP), so I got roped into reading two or three
aloud to him and his brother.  I don't have any serious
objections to them except that they all have the same plot. 
That, and the fact that while biology appears to be destiny (all
rats, stoats, weasels, ferrets, foxes are apparently Bad), it's
not really logically consistent (if some mustelids are Bad, why
are others, such as otters and badgers, Good?), and the animal
characters are portrayed too humanly for me to feel right about
such predestination anyway.  It gives me the same twitchy feeling
(to drag this back on topic) that I get from "All Slytherins Are
Evil" (which JKR as author has NOT said, I should note).
 
> The other thing I found interesting is the bad rat has a henchman named
> Wormtail who lost his hand. Any ideas?

Probably just a coincidence.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 12:36:32 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:36:32 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
In-Reply-To: <9cntag+3gdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cov0g+schb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18007

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> 
> It should be noted that the author read only the first book (which 
> someone told him was the best -- *shrugs* -- I myself greatly 
prefer 
> both the third and the fourth). I found everything in the article 
to 
> be a complete matter of opinion. (He didn't like Quidditch! *sigh* 
If 
> you can't like something like Quidditch, than there's no hope for 
you 
> to like HP in general.)

Obviously he should have read all four books before rating them. 
Honestly, I don't mind if someone tells me they don't like the HP 
books.  We all have different likes and dislikes.  For instance, I 
love the books but I would not be disappointed if I never read about 
another Quidditch match.  It is just not very interesting to me.  It 
has become way too predictable and therefore it bores me.


In the end, Nagy sums 
> up by saying, "The surprise -- and I keep thinking that Owl Post is 
> going to drop a Howler in my lap if I dare to say this -- is that 
> here we are in the year 2000 with a grand new hero in a magnificent 
> story which is a morality tale. It mirrors the morality takes of 
150 
> years ago, and has very near relatives in all the morality stories 
I 
> can ever remember reading."
> 
> Hah, take that all those people who call HP "amoral" or "immoral."

Of course this is just this person's opinion.  Yes, they are some 
moral teachings in the books.  There are, IMHO, some immoral things 
that Harry does also.


 
> Finally, Grynbaum has this to say about HP fans: "Perhaps Harry 
> Potter's fans constitute a generation across age lines that feels 
> somewhat orphaned and unprotected and, along with Harry, know the 
> dispair of spiritual emptiness and emotional starvation." I don't 
> know that I agree with that.


None of that ever crossed my mind when reading the books and speaking 
only for myself, I don't feel *orphaned and unprotected, know the 
dispair of spiritual emptiness and emotional starvation*. But as I 
have said before, I don't get into all that physiological examination 
stuff.  

Koinonia





From lilith at freebox.com  Wed May  2 08:52:31 2001
From: lilith at freebox.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 08:52:31 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cohsf+la2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18008


> 
> I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban - surely no matter what 
> awful things might happen in OoP he's still just a child and won't 
be 
> sent there (as is =made= to go there) or be imprisoned?  And by the 
> same token surely he wouldn't want to visit the place voluntarily, 
> (unless he is trying to overcome his fear of Dementors?) - can 
anyone 
> think of anybody he'd want to go and see, unless (GASP!) Sirius is 
> caught!!!! (I'm thinking out loud as I type here, as you can 
probably 
> tell...)

Oh no, I don't think he'll go to Azkaban. On the other hand- he *is* 
a boy with a strong will and he'd surely visit the prison if Sirius 
is (*hides her face*)getting caught again, of that I am sure. 
Thinking about it, Black might as well get caught, now that he has to 
work for Dumbledore and more people knows about his whereabouts. But 
sending Harry to Azkaban would be pretty unlike JKR- it is a book if 
not completely so at least partly for children after all.  
> 
> Overall, I think I would like to see him visit the Ministry of 
Magic, 
> or perhaps St Mungos with Neville to see the Longbottoms - I'd like 
> the troika's friendship with Neville to strengthen as he needs a 
> friend and Harry has just found out a lot of upsetting stuff about 
> him.

I like that too. Remember the scene in GoF when Harry hear Neville 
sob in the dead of the night? I always found that scene to annoying 
since it never got cleared up. I had expected Harry to talk to 
Neville about this, but instead it became one of the loose endings I 
do not like. We need to see Neville strengthen up a bit in the future 
and he would probably be best off with Harry and his friends. 
Anyone else who'd just love to see little clumsy Longbottom getting a 
role of importance and power in the Last Fight with Voldemort? That 
would very much speak to my heart, I daresay.
> 
> Anyone else got any thoughts on all this?
> 
> Love Boolean the Fox
> 

Peace and Sunshine,
Lilith

who *is* new here and didn't know whether it was requested to post 
any kind of 'hi, i'm a newbie' message so she wasn't bothered. For 
your information I am 20 and Swedish, why I beg you to be tolerant 
about my English! 




From lilith at freebox.com  Wed May  2 13:59:46 2001
From: lilith at freebox.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:59:46 -0000
Subject: Newbie + Deleted messages?
Message-ID: <9cp3si+uvbh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18009


Hello there,

I've been lurking here for a while now, since they kindly asked me to 
when I joined the group. Felt that it might be time to take a little 
more active part of the list. *please stop throwing rotten tomatoes*
I'm Swedish, which accounts for my sometimes very strange English, 
and 20 years old. 
Massive HP-fan of course, with Severus Snape and Hermione Granger as 
favourites. You'll notice me in any conversation about them, I can 
assure you! Currently studying computers and IT- that explains the 
abnormal activity on any forum discussing HP matters, I guess!

Now another subject and the real reason why I posted this. (I know 
that most people hate 'newbie' stuff)
*groans*
Today I've tried several times to post my thoughts on the first 
Chapter Summary and neither one of the messages got through the cyber 
space police control! Is it because of some well-known trouble on the 
server, e.g- does anyone else suffer from the same thing? I hear 
someone say something about changing from yahoo to eGroups and 
possibly problems because of that. 
*sigh*
I'm not normally I techobimbo but this didn't work. Just because I 
did a analysis of Harry's relation to his parents that really felt 
*relevant* ;)

Peace and Sunshine,
Lilith M
who by the way is 70% obsessed if anyone is interested;) And this is 
probably the only numer I'll remember in my entire life! 




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May  2 10:40:06 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 10:40:06 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9coo66+itgr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18010

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., booleanfox at y... wrote:
JKR has 
> revealed that Harry is to visit somewhere in Book 5 that we have 
read 
> about but that we haven't been to yet.
> 
> They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the Ministry 
of 
> Magic, but it got me thinking...
> 
> I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban - surely no matter what 
> awful things might happen in OoP he's still just a child and won't 
be 
> sent there (as is =made= to go there) or be imprisoned?  And by the 
> same token surely he wouldn't want to visit the place voluntarily, 
> (unless he is trying to overcome his fear of Dementors?) - can 
anyone 
> think of anybody he'd want to go and see, unless (GASP!) Sirius is 
> caught!!!! (I'm thinking out loud as I type here, as you can 
probably 
> tell...)
> 
> Overall, I think I would like to see him visit the Ministry of 
Magic, 
> or perhaps St Mungos with Neville to see the Longbottoms - I'd like 
> the troika's friendship with Neville to strengthen as he needs a 
> friend and Harry has just found out a lot of upsetting stuff about 
> him.
> 
> Anyone else got any thoughts on all this?
> 
> Love Boolean the Fox
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml

One possibility which struck me, was that it could be Godric's Hollow.
Another alternative is that he goes on some kind of visit to 
Beauxbaton or Durmstrang.

Catherine




From particle at urbanet.ch  Wed May  2 17:50:56 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 19:50:56 +0200
Subject: Redwall Baddies vs. HP Slytherins
References: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503C0FD@MAILSRV> <3AF02419.1C548B3@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AF048FF.802E7EEA@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 18011

Margaret Dean wrote:

> I've read a few of the Redwall books, too; my elder son loves
> them (as well as HP), so I got roped into reading two or three
> aloud to him and his brother.  I don't have any serious
> objections to them except that they all have the same plot.
> That, and the fact that while biology appears to be destiny (all
> rats, stoats, weasels, ferrets, foxes are apparently Bad), it's
> not really logically consistent (if some mustelids are Bad, why
> are others, such as otters and badgers, Good?), and the animal
> characters are portrayed too humanly for me to feel right about
> such predestination anyway.  It gives me the same twitchy feeling
> (to drag this back on topic) that I get from "All Slytherins Are
> Evil" (which JKR as author has NOT said, I should note).

And here you've listed all the reasons that I eventually stopped buying
them <g>. As you've said, it's always a variation of a plot that goes
something like: Character A and friends travel, other characters are
attacked by the bad guys number 2, while Character A and Co. fight bad
guy number 1, they win, everyone goes home happy, then they eat a lot. I
mean, you'd think with over ten books there could be a *tad* more
variation.

We never have any anti-heroes or anything, what with the species
stereotyping. The closest was Veil the ferret from Outcast of Redwall,
who was like Draco Malfoy farther down the wrong path, but he died, and
his sister/mother figure ended the book saying she loved him, but he was
most certainly evil, like all vermin. And regarding your 'why ferrets,
etc., and not otters or badgers?', my opinion is that it's because
otters and badgers are traditionally cute, and the other mustelids are
vermin.

In Harry Potter, at least, most of the Slytherins who've been described
are evil or at the very least anti-heroes to the extreme, but nothing
says they can't be redeemed, or there aren't exceptions to the
rule/shades of grey. Although a character like Draco Malfoy helps for
their PR :).

And another irritating thing about Redwall - there are some very
interesting characters in there, like the Mask, the disguise-otter from
Mossflower, Chickenhound/Slagar, who I think is probably a smarter bad
guy than Voldie, even if he's not quite as dangerous to the general
public, Skarlath the kestrel (probably my favorite, and the only bird of
prey I've met without an accent) and of course Martin the Warrior
(although he needs to just go off to the Great Abbey in the Sky and stop
visiting the Abbey people - they need to learn to take care of
themselves). I just wish Jacques had fleshed them out a bit more - the
two most interesting ones, the Mask and Skarlath, were killed rather
quickly, and sidelined then killed, respectively. There really isn't
much room for discussion/fanfic, because the two above, most of the
intruiging characters are either supporting cast or just not given much
chance to show other sides. What I love about HP is all the side
characters who are barely mentioned yet have their own stories, and
maybe even get fleshed out later - like Neville.

- Firebolt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Wed May  2 17:48:59 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 10:48:59 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix 
In-Reply-To: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEFPDJAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18012

JKR Quote:

"In book 5, we go into a whole new area, physically, an area
you've never seen before, a magical world"
(Entertainment Weekly Interview, September 2000)

This doesn't sound like Azkaban, the MoM, or St. Mungo's -- it sounds like
another dimension.

SML

===============================================
"For what do we live, but to make sport for
our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?"
      --Jane Austen (Pride and Prejudice)
===============================================


-----Original Message-----
From: booleanfox at yahoo.com [mailto:booleanfox at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:59 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix


I have seen on the BBC's Newsround website (for those non-Brits,
Newsround is like a children's version of the news) that JKR has
revealed that Harry is to visit somewhere in Book 5 that we have read
about but that we haven't been to yet.

They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the Ministry of
Magic, but it got me thinking...

I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban - surely no matter what
awful things might happen in OoP he's still just a child and won't be
sent there (as is =made= to go there) or be imprisoned?  And by the
same token surely he wouldn't want to visit the place voluntarily,
(unless he is trying to overcome his fear of Dementors?) - can anyone
think of anybody he'd want to go and see, unless (GASP!) Sirius is
caught!!!! (I'm thinking out loud as I type here, as you can probably
tell...)

Overall, I think I would like to see him visit the Ministry of Magic,
or perhaps St Mungos with Neville to see the Longbottoms - I'd like
the troika's friendship with Neville to strengthen as he needs a
friend and Harry has just found out a lot of upsetting stuff about
him.

Anyone else got any thoughts on all this?

Love Boolean the Fox

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml





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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 17:28:29 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:28:29 -0000
Subject: Test (ignore)
Message-ID: <9cpg3t+senc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18013

For some reason my posts are not showing....




From lilith at freebox.com  Wed May  2 09:27:15 2001
From: lilith at freebox.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:27:15 -0000
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <20010430115012.51848.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9cojtj+pcen@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18014


> > 1)	Shouldn't most wizards be more self-disciplined than to let 
somebody get    
>   under them and then blow them up?

Of course they should, normally. I -however- do not expect this of a 
13 year old boy suffering from hormones and a complicated relation to 
his dead parents! I believe that he could actually stand a lot more 
nit-picks and criticism of his own person than he can bear when it 
comes to his parents. I don't wish to get into a deep analysis of his 
psyche this time around but handling criticism of a close person, all 
the more so if the person is no longer alive, is hard. And like I 
said, Harry is 13. Everyone was a little
touchy back then, right? 
(*trying to suppress her own hysterical way of behaving*) 
I believe that most full grown wizards are able to control themselves 
in 9 situations out of 10 but surely there must be week moments for 
everyone. Remember Mr Self-Possessed Severus "I'm cool as ice" Snape 
in PoA when he's almost trembling with lust to kill Sirius? Harry 
will most likely end up being a mature wizard who won't let some aunt 
drive him nuts.      

> 2)	How do they get Marge off the ceiling?

Someone suggested Dart
*LOL* No, but seriously I think it was the 
Ministry with their own secret weapons.

> 3)	What does Marge think? Will the Dursleys ever learn? (They do 
better in     
>  Book 4, but will they ever do more than tolerate Harry?)

Marge doesn't remember so she doesn't think anything about this. The 
Dursleys are another matter though. I can't see them befriend each 
other *ever*, not even in the final end (if everyone makes it that 
far) I can or would like to see some touching hugs between them. 
Harry belong with his godfather, not his horrible relatives. 
But, is it finally cleared that Petunia is in a complete lack of 
powers? She was Lily's sister after all and there might be something 
hidden inside her. What do you think?
I heard JKR say that the Dursleys will enter the story more and more 
and in that case I can see a hilarious turn on Petunias long-
suppressed magic power as she is needed and forced to save Harry from 
something! *LOL*
 
> 4)	What did Harry think he was doing, running out into the 
street? He can't    
>   apparate


No, he can't and he didn't even know about the fact that you *can* 
apparate either, if I remember correctly. . But it was an act of a 
pure emotional rush. He didn't think, he wanted to get away no matter 
what. I also think that he was more or less convinced that he'd never 
be able to return to Hogwarts and this must have been enough to make 
him do anything. 
  
> 5)	Where did the owls meet up at? Do they have a central office?

I've had the same thought myself but no answer. 

> 6)	Can you hire more owls to deliver heavy packages? Why didn't 
Ron, with his  
>     newfound wealth?

Dunno about this either. I guess you could, or else you have to get 
the owls yourself. The Weasleys probably didn't have more owl 
available even though one might think that a family with SO many 
individuals would at least have a couple of owls to spare


> 7)    What's up with the telephone sequence? Couldn't Ron have 
asked somebody, 
>      or was he just not thinking?

That was something of the funniest part I've read in the canon! "CAN 
YOU HEAR ME?" But I also wonder why he didn't ask someone to use the 
phone properly. Or why he didn't told Hermione to phone Harry 
instead. I do think that Arthur Weasley with his fascination for all 
things Muggle would have known how to use a simple phone, but no, Ron 
wasn't thinking. 

Peace and Sunshine,
Lilith M


> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May  1 14:27:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:27:02 -0000
Subject: Scar - Time-turning - Moon - Thigh boots - Dark Mark
Message-ID: <9cmh3m+11a3j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18015

Neil wrote:

>It's interesting that, in this story, it marks Harry out as 
different, but different in a positive way

and Jenny wrote:

> It is also something that the Dursleys cannot control or erase.

Yeah to both!  Emphases mine, corresponding footnotes follow:

"=The only thing Harry liked about his own appearance= [1] was a very 
thin scar on his forehead which was shaped =like a bolt of lightning= 
[2].  He had had it for as long as he could remember and =the first 
question he could ever remember asking his Aunt Petunia= [3] was how 
he had got it" (PS/SS 2).

To me, this signalled from the start that:

[1]-this is a kid who wouldn't be ashamed for being different
-he is set apart from the world he lives in (the world of the 
Dursleys)
-his history, when he learns it, will be something to be proud of and 
sad about

[2]-the scar is a sign of power.  Yes, I know JKR said the reason she 
chose lightning was that she needed a shape that was distinctive while 
also being a plausible form for a scar to take.  But lightning is also 
symbolic of tremendous power:  in this case, Voldemort's and Harry's 
own.  Twelve years after receiving it, he'll start riding a Firebolt . 
. .

[3]-the most important things about him are encoded in this scar, 
something he intuits even as a tiny child

Scott wrote:

>On a related time travel note how is it that neither Harry nor Ron 
>even think that Hermione might have during all of PoA? Surely, though 
>rare, it is not an unheard of event? I mean if you KNOW someone is in 
>two places at once, or at least suspect so, then wouldn't you 
>consider time-travel (especially in a place where magic is so 
>ordinary.)

Now I feel dumb.  I didn't think of it while I was reading.  My guess 
was that Hermione had somehow split herself in three--hence the 
uncharacteristic behavior (hitting Malfoy, stomping out of Divination) 
and seeming not to know where she'd been at times.

I do think Dumbledore is treading on thin ice when he tells Snape at 
the end, "unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able 
to be in two places at once..." (PA 22).  It may be that no one but 
McGonagall and Dumbledore knows she has a Time-Turner, but in nine 
months of classes, two professors might easily have discovered that 
they had both taught Hermione at the same time and put two and two 
together.  She makes no effort to conceal her schedule.  Snape surely 
knows about Time-Turners, and it wouldn't take much for it to click 
for him that Hermione certainly =can= be in two places at once.

Scabbers/Moon delurked to say:

<various things about the problems with the moon in PoA>

I was just the other day counting between Halloween and Christmas to 
try to make the full moons match up.  It bugs me that they don't, but 
at least the transformations are spaced at roughly the right times.

There is a hilariously bad movie called Werewolf (I recommend the 
Mystery Science Theater 3000 version--no one should watch this movie 
unaided) in which the moon is full night after night in order to 
accommodate the plot.  I found this unforgivable, yet I'm willing to 
cut PA lots of slack.  But I would have been much happier if the moon 
really worked in PA.

Neil titillated:

>hang on, that's another list, where I pretend to be Captain Janeway 
>in thigh boots...

We let you get away with not posting the bunny slippers picture, but 
this we cannot resist.  I want to see a picture of Neil as Janeway 
pronto, and the thigh-highs had better be in there.

Dave pondered:

> What I don't get is that if the MoM ever had any doubts about
> who was really on V's side and who wasn't, why didn't they
> just look at their arm?

I think it is invisible most of the time.  V may be an Unhinged Evil 
Overlord, but tattooing members of a secret society is dumber than 
dumb.  

Counterevidence: Karkaroff's distress suggests that it was visible 
when Voldemort was powerful, faded after his downfall, and is only now 
becoming visible because he is returning.

Evidence:  "There," said Snape harshly.  "There.  The Dark Mark.  It 
is not as clear as it was, an hour or so ago, when it burnt black, but 
you can still see it" (GF 36).  This suggests that even though 
Voldemort is, as far as we know, alive and feeling fine (if a tad 
peeved), the mark will fade again--to invisibility, perhaps?

More evidence:  Sirius doesn't know anything about it, despite being 
in the resistance and then in Azkaban, where, even if most prisoners 
are in solitary most of the time, you'd think he would have seen it 
sooner or later.

Still, I think V should be more careful.  What if Malfoy had been 
playing tennis with Fudge at the moment V touched Wormtail's mark?  
Bad scene.

Maybe it is visible only to DEs and to those to whom they wish to 
expose it?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Do you mean ter tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that
this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" 
  Harry thought this was going a bit far. 
                               -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed May  2 13:27:44 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:27:44 -0000
Subject: Harry hits 100 million!!!
Message-ID: <9cp20g+bpkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18016

Yay!!!

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010502/re/potter_dc_1.html






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed May  2 19:20:02 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 20:20:02 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Yahoo problems
Message-ID: <005501c0d33c$e4005760$e53770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 18017

Dear Listmembers,

I hardly need to tell you that Yahoo hasn't been behaving itself over the last few days.  I think we've all experienced very slow access (or no access) to the clubs or ridiculous delays in the transfer of our messages to the list after sending them.  I have no idea what is happening [he said, feebly].  

Lilith and other new members should be assured that this is not typical and that the moderators had nothing to do with these intermittent problems. Let's hope things return to normal as soon as possible....

I imagine you will see this message in about 13 hours time, by which time it may be pointless, but I thought I'd send it anyway.

Neil
Moderator Team



 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 19:27:42 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 19:27:42 -0000
Subject: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <9ck377+9796@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cpn3e+b0t2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18018

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> 
> So where does that word "Eeylops" come from? Anyone have an idea? 
> I'll have to check Whats In A Name and see if Ellie has it listed 
> there. What a great word, though!

Here's some speculation on my part.  Others have said that "Eeylops"
reminds them of a cross between "Eeyore" and "Cyclops", neither of
which is easily related to an owlery.

As for myself "Eeylops" reminds me of "aegilops" which is a cool
word being one of the longest English words with all letters in
alphabetical order.  Unfortunately it's a species of grass or
a stye in one's eye.

So, you're asking what's the connection?  Well, the genus of forest
owls is "Aegolius", which is awfully similar to "aegilops".  Perhaps,
JKR was inspired by such a similarity, but not wanting to name her
owl-shop after a disease, modified the name slightly.

Here's a list of owl taxonomical names:

http://m237.arc.leon.k12.fl.us/~beck/owls/owltaxonomy.html

(eeylops isn't among them)

Anyway, it's just a guess....

....Craig




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 15:52:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:52:16 -0000
Subject: Percy Weasley and the Deeply Boring Book (was Harry's ethics)
In-Reply-To: <71.d01e6ca.281fed8f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9cpafg+8no1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18019

dragonsbloodmoon wrote:

>Could you imagine 
> reading a book series about Percy Weasly's days at Hogwarts? 
BOR-ING! Instead 
> of having meaningful chapters like the House Elf Liberation Front in 
GoF, 
> you'd have "Harry, Ron and Hermione Do Their Homework." YAWN. No 
thanks.

Oh, I bet old Percy has a more interesting life than he lets on.  If 
the book told all, we know there would be at least one chapter called 
"Snogging in the Dungeons."

Amy Z
Acting Spokeswoman, Percy Lovers Unite! (the permanent spokeswoman is 
on maternity leave)




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 13:51:09 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:51:09 -0000
Subject: A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.
In-Reply-To: <003401c0d2ab$c93c80c0$a53570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9cp3cd+g6s3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18020

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Egg On My Head said:
> 
> <<This is a pet theory I have been harbouring for some time, and 
have tried
> out on a few people and developed.  Basically it is an
>  explanation for those who insist on believing that J.K. Rowling 
must  have
> got her ideas from somewhere.  Basically, my problem is that we  are 
never
> told how the muggle killings that characterised voldemorts reign 
were
> explained - memory charms cannot surely destroy memories  of loved 
ones.  My
> idea is that as the muggle prime minister is in contact with the 
minister
> for magic, the magic minister (mm) aranged  with the prime inister 
(pm) so
> that all the troubles in northern  Ieland of the seventies and 
eighties were
> invented - therefore any  killing was as a result of magic - and the
> troubles were invented as an excuse - to stop any muggles getting
> suspicious.  The few  terrorist activitis were commited by death 
eaters -
> unwilling to  admit defeat - the recent rise of voldemort would 
explain the
> recent  upsurge in terrorist activity.>>
> 
> Hi Egg on My Head (I hope that isn't your regular name!),
> 
> Welcome to the group.
> 
> I think that JKR may have drawn on her general knowledge of 
terrorism and
> intolerance in the world in her portrayal of the Death Eaters, but I 
doubt
> that she would have consciously used Northern Ireland as a specific 
example
> in the way you imply.  The troubles in Northern Ireland have brought 
very
> real death and destruction to that part of the UK and for anyone 
living
> there (or in the UK as a whole) it remains a sensitive subject.
> 
> The level of terrorist activity in mainland Britain has been quite 
low
> compared to that in Northern Ireland.  If your theory were true, 
which is
> unlikely, IMO, there would have to have been a disproportionate 
number
> 'magical' deaths in Northern Ireland and I don't see anything in the 
books
> that suggests that Voldemort's reign of terror was focused there.
> 
> [Admin note:  We can't get too deeply into the political element of 
this, as
> there is still a ban on politically-sensitive discussions on this 
list].
> 
> On the general point you led with, I'm sure that most writers are 
influenced
> or inspired by the world around them.  An interesting aspect of 
fantasy
> writing is how much of the real world creeps in and how much is left 
to pure
> invention (if there is such a thing).  I'd say that fantasy writing
> generally has its anchors in the real world and I like the way JKR 
uses this
> connection between fantasy and reality as an opportunity to explain 
the
> magical causes of mysterious or even actual events in the real 
Muggle*
> world.
> 
> Neil
> 
> * Ahem - not associated with Real Muggles [TM]
> ________________________________________
> 
> Flying Ford Anglia
> Mechanimagus Moderator
> 
> "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
> a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
> squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
> ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]
> 
> Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> to do with this club:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




From rubeush963 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 18:00:09 2001
From: rubeush963 at yahoo.com (rubeush963 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:00:09 -0000
Subject: hi...
Message-ID: <9cphv9+fknl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18021

saw somewhere that new folks are supposed to say hi and say a couple 
things about themself so...
MWM age 26 w/1 daughter (6yo)

and in what seems to be more typical than I ever dreamed....
I had heard tons of "Potter hype" and asked my mother for Sorcerer's 
Stone as a X-mas gift this past year
well I recieved not only that but all the books for Christmas with 
the one condition being that I would allow her to read them as I 
finished...
I started reading Book I to my 6yo and she seemed interested but I 
couldn't keep her interested...it got to the point I was forcing the 
issue...so I finally stopped and put the book down for several months 
completely
Fast Forward to late March early April
I picked the first book back up as a solo venture and began chapter a 
night reading once more...until I got to diagon alley...
well for me the book took off from there as did my desire to read it
I have since finished all 4 of the main books and the 2 Comic Relief 
UK books...and now am seeking out places like this to fill my "Potter 
Need"
Interesting Note...around the time I finished Book III my wife began 
Book I and has since finished the series...she has no desire to read 
the supplements as she has "Read the best parts" upon further 
questioning...she skipped Quidditch Through the Ages completely and 
only read the notes in the Margins of Magical Beasts hehe
and of course with both Mom and Dad reading Harry Potter the 6yo was 
feeling left out so...whenever someone had a book in their hand they 
had to read out loud for everyone and of course answer questions as 
they arose...so Me and my wife have both read them and our 6yo has a 
vague understanding...and of course we have set a date with each 
other for the much anticipated arrival of the movie
well that about says it all for "Me and Harry Potter" guess I get to 
go browse through all Umpteen Thousand Messages now... :P
Steve




From hpconference at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 12:59:09 2001
From: hpconference at yahoo.com (hpconference at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:59:09 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
In-Reply-To: <9cntag+3gdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cp0at+sikf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18022

I am positivily wringing my hands in delight!  THis is exactly what 
I'm taking about -- the scholarship is out there -- YOU'RE out there, 
we know you are.  ANswer the HP conference survey please, please -- 
I've only gotten a hand full of reposes so for and I'm very 
depressed. <snif snif>

Okay, I've regained composure now, sorry.  

Stephanie 




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> Recently I attended a class at the San Francisco Jung Institute, 
and 
> while I was there obtained a copy of their quarterly journal. Lo 
and 
> behold, I open it up and what do I find? THREE articles on Harry 
> Potter! Two are positive, one is negative. 
> 
> The one negative essay, considering the nature of the other 
articles 
> in the journal, seems to be a token article; whoever was putting it 
> together decided, "Well, we have to show all sides" and tossed it 
in 
> there. It is the only one of the three that I would not 
> call "scholarly" (the other two are reviews of the books using 
> Jungian psychology). Written by Harold Bloom, and originally 
> appearing in The Wall Street Journal, the negative article ("Can 35 
> Million Book Buyers Be Wrong? Yes.") focuses on how HP is not well-
> written and in fact full of cliches. Bloom finds 
Hogwarts "tiresome," 
> and says that, "When the future witches and wizards of Great 
Britain 
> are not studying how to cast a spell, they preoccupy themselves 
with 
> bizarre intramural sports." ^_^
> 
> It should be noted that the author read only the first book (which 
> someone told him was the best -- *shrugs* -- I myself greatly 
prefer 
> both the third and the fourth). I found everything in the article 
to 
> be a complete matter of opinion. (He didn't like Quidditch! *sigh* 
If 
> you can't like something like Quidditch, than there's no hope for 
you 
> to like HP in general.)
> 
> However, the other two articles are very interesting, especially if 
> one knows anything about Jungian psychology. The first article, a 
> short one called "The Ghost of Moaning Myrtle Who Haunts the First 
> Floor Toilet, Platform Nine and Three Quarters at King's Cross 
> Station . . . and all that" by Marilyn Nagy at first discusses HP 
in 
> relation to other British children's literature such as Oliver 
Twist 
> and Little Men. Specifically, she focuses on HP as a moral tale. 
For 
> instance, in relation to that often-quoted passage in CS when 
> Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what 
we 
> truly are, far more than our abilities," Nagy says, "What the 
> presence of the grown-ups signifies, I believe, is counsel against 
> despair, and most particularly, against a belief that our decision-
> making is a matter of moral indifference." 
> 
> Shortly after this, the article makes a transition into an essay on 
> defining the Jungian movement as a moral heritage when Nagy 
> claims, "The drama of the analytical process is like the drama of 
the 
> morality story and both of these, of course, are meant to be 
> symbolically as close to real life as can be." In the end, Nagy 
sums 
> up by saying, "The surprise -- and I keep thinking that Owl Post is 
> going to drop a Howler in my lap if I dare to say this -- is that 
> here we are in the year 2000 with a grand new hero in a magnificent 
> story which is a morality tale. It mirrors the morality takes of 
150 
> years ago, and has very near relatives in all the morality stories 
I 
> can ever remember reading."
> 
> Hah, take that all those people who call HP "amoral" or "immoral."
> 
> The second article, "The Secrets of Harry Potter" by Gail A. 
> Grynbaum, is much longer -- 32 pages in fact -- and approaches HP 
> from a truly psychological (as opposed to moral or literary) point 
of 
> view. It summarizes all four books and calls them an "alchemical 
> reading experience, a revelation of secrets and strata previously 
> reserved to the contemplation of the woodcuts in Jung's essays on 
> alchemy or to the Jungian analysis of dreams." If you are familiar 
> with Jungian psychology, you will know that this is a highly 
> complimentary statement.
> 
> Grynbaum focuses on both the dreamlike atmosphere of HP and on the 
> archetypes that are present: that of the Orphan, the Vampire, and 
the 
> Resilient Young Masculine. I, myself, (though I am no Jungian 
expert) 
> would add the Wise Old Man and David vs. Goliath to that list. The 
> article explores some of the mythology behind the books (the origin 
> of the names of Harry's parents, for instance -- St. James was the 
> patron saint of alchemists and physicians, and a lily represents 
> purity, immortality, salvation, and the Virgin Mary), as well as 
the 
> psychology behind the books (I'm betting that JKR herself would be 
> very interested in reading this, since I doubt she ever had any of 
> this in mind). One section bares the rather silly name (I think) 
> of "Quidditch Player of the Soul" (^_^). It also goes into "Harry 
> Potter as a Contemporary Shaman," saying that, "Harry Potter is an 
> inspiring vision of a contemporary Western shaman with whom a hope 
> lies that he will show us how to retrieve lost soul."
> 
> Finally, Grynbaum has this to say about HP fans: "Perhaps Harry 
> Potter's fans constitute a generation across age lines that feels 
> somewhat orphaned and unprotected and, along with Harry, know the 
> dispair of spiritual emptiness and emotional starvation." I don't 
> know that I agree with that.
> 
> I enjoyed these articles, but never again will I think that we here 
> at HP4GU's delve into these books too deeply!
> 
> Stacy




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 12:03:32 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:03:32 -0000
Subject: Questions
In-Reply-To: <9co7tn+igk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cot2k+ff19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18023

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

 <snip questions and answers>

> By the way, the Lexicon is actually pretty reliable on details like 
> this. I don't put it in there unless there's some pretty strong 
> evidence (such as an inteview) to back it up. I invite you to have 
a 
> look at the Lexicon to find answers to these kinds of questions. If 
> the answer is available, chances are it's listed there.
> 
> On the other hand, most of us really get excited about trying to 
> answer these kinds of questions off the top of our heads, so fire 
> away!
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> which has pages for each of the houses (and a page for the ghosts 
too)
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon

The Lexicon is precisely where I went when I originally Toby's 
questions (at least, for those answers I couldn't come up with off 
the top of my head). It's a marvelously reliable source of 
information.

I agree, it's fun doing it off the top of our heads, but the bit I 
didn't know drove me nuts, so I looked it up!

Sheryll




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 12:52:59 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:52:59 -0000
Subject: Yahoo!Groups
Message-ID: <9covvb+4ips@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18024


Okay, I've been waiting for Yahoo!Groups to fix its little problem 
but it's been 24 hours and I'm still having troubles. I haven't got 
*any* emails from this group or any other group I belong to on Yahoo!
Groups and I'm starting to get grouchy (I have my delivery settings 
on Individual Email). I know there are new messages since I can see 
them on the Yahoo!Groups site. My question is this: is anybody else 
getting no emails? Is anybody else having any problems? Does anybody 
know what the problem is? Has anyone gotten official notification 
from Yahoo about this problem?

~Amber
(who is feeling very disgruntled and Draco-ish today...)




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 12:14:43 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:14:43 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cotnj+ch4m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18025

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., booleanfox at y... wrote:
> I have seen on the BBC's Newsround website (for those non-Brits, 
> Newsround is like a children's version of the news) that JKR has 
> revealed that Harry is to visit somewhere in Book 5 that we have 
read 
> about but that we haven't been to yet.
> 
> They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the Ministry 
of 
> Magic, but it got me thinking...
> 
> I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban  Overall, I think I would 
like to see him visit the Ministry of Magic, 
> or perhaps St Mungos with Neville  Anyone else got any thoughts on 
all this?


How about Godric's Hollow?  Isn't it about time we learn more about 
Harry's family?  More on James and Lily's death?

Koinonia





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 16:06:45 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 16:06:45 -0000
Subject: Question re: Nearly Headless Nick
In-Reply-To: <F140dTfMqiXYd4YfEED0000cacb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cpbal+7mn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18026

Cait wrote:

> Maybe they just sort of doused him? I don't have any evidence to 
back that 
> up, but presumably they were able to do SOMETHING!
> 
> 
> Cait (It's not a flint, it's creative omission! ^_^)

I think so too.  This passage makes it clear, IMO, that everyone who'd 
been petrified, including Nick, came out of it just fine (CS 18):

  "You will find that Madam Pomfrey is still awake.  She's just giving 
out Mandrake juice--I daresay the Basilisk's victims will be waking up 
any moment."
  "So Hermoine's OK!" said Ron brightly[, setting off the Shipping 
Early Warning System].
  "There has been no lasting harm done," said Dumbledore.

A skillful nurse like Madam Pomfrey, serving an institution with a 
significant ghost population, must be well-versed in the treatment of 
ailments in post-biological beings.  Maybe you make the potion out of 
a Mandrake ghost? 

Cait's sig said:
 
> Corgi Haiku: "Are you going to eat that?"
>              "Are you going to eat that?" If not
>               Then I will eat that.

LOL!

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
   "Don't you call me an idiot!" said Neville.  "I don't think
 you should be breaking any more rules!  And you were the one
 who told me to stand up to people!"
   "Yes, but not to =us=," said Ron in exasperation.
                             -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 17:16:05 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:16:05 -0000
Subject: Scrooge McDuck - Did Karkaroff know James?
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F44VTwMEbb4pgS0000c0ca@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cpfcl+i6qh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18027

Morag wrote:

> *Rich* Scot??  Not too many of those...

LOL!

(nor mean i.e. cheap ones 
either) I 
> suppose Disney was thinking of Andrew Carnegie :)

I'm not too up on this subject, since anti-Scottish sentiment is not 
exactly a raging problem in the USA, but a few English fictional 
characters I've encountered, and, unfortunately, a couple of English 
people I have known, have expressed a prejudice towards Scots along 
the lines that they're pennypinching.  I'm not sure whether "rich" 
went along with it.  It had the same flavor as the similar stereotype 
of Jews.  So I wondered whether this was a too-common prejudice in 
England and Unca Scrooge (don't know how far he dates back--40 years?) 
reflected it . . . ?

Carnegie was rich but emphatically not known for being cheap; he's one 
of the biggest philanthropists in US history.  (He deserves a less 
glowing reputation than he has, IMO, but recounting labor history 
would spill into politics, so I'll desist.)

I fear the Mods' wands are twitching, so I'll rush to my on-topic 
topic.  It strikes me that in the scene in which Karkaroff first sees 
Harry (GF 16), he recognizes him not from his scar, but from something 
else--presumably his overall appearance.

Harry stopped to let him walk through first.
  "Thank you," said Karkaroff carelessly, glancing at him.
  And then Karkaroff froze.  He turned his head back to Harry, and 
stared at him as though he couldn't believe his eyes. . . . 
Karkaroff's eyes moved slowly up Harry's face, and fixed upon his 
scar." 

Am I reading too much into this?  It's possible that he saw the scar, 
did his double-take, and then did the long stare, ending on Harry's 
scar again.  But it seems to me that he recognized him first and the 
scar then confirmed his suspicion, which suggests that he knew James 
and is recognizing Harry from that resemblance (the same way Snape 
recognizes him from across the Great Hall in PS/SS).  Whaddaya think? 
 I'm so intrigued by the doings of that generation and the way Harry's 
parents' roles in the time of Voldemort keep reverberating down to his 
life.  I'd like to see more of Karkaroff in 5-6-7, though if we do 
see him again, it will probably be just to see him die in some very 
nasty way at the hands of his former Master . . . 

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole
 farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
              -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed May  2 14:05:16 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 14:05:16 -0000
Subject: Question re: Nearly Headless Nick
In-Reply-To: <F140dTfMqiXYd4YfEED0000cacb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cp46s+3ok5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18028

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cait Hunter" <kiary91 at h...> wrote:
> Maybe they just sort of doused him? I don't have any evidence to back that 
> up, but presumably they were able to do SOMETHING!


	If you think about it, =none= of the victims were capable of 
taking anything by mouth. Lockhart (admittedly not a reliable source) 
refers to the "Mandrake Restorative Draught" CoS ch. 9. Draughts may be 
inhaled as well as given by mouth. Perhaps the remedy had to be blown 
into their lungs, since none of them were breathing. I can imagine 
Madame Pomfrey wielding an atomizer, and blowing mandrake juice  into 
NHN and the rest of the victims.
Pippin






From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 16:22:19 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 16:22:19 -0000
Subject: Harry's ethics and behavior
In-Reply-To: <71.d01e6ca.281fed8f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9cpc7r+ja4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18029

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/29/2001 3:02:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> lj2d30 at g... writes:
> 
> > > 3. Harry consistently breaks school rules and lies to, well, 
just 
> >  > about everyone whnever it is convenient. 
> >  
> >  Are you familiar with Harry's pre-Hogwarts background?  He was 
for 10 
> >  years *locked in a cupboard under the stairs* and mistreated by 
his 
> >  uncle, aunt, and cousin.  He had no toys, no clothes that fit, 
never 
> >  given enough to eat,  was beaten up regularly by his cousin 
Dudley, 
> >  never encouraged to trust or ask questions about anything. He is 
not 
> >  a very trusting person, especially when it comes to authority 
> >  figures.  He does things on his own as a result of this 
upbringing.  
> >  In GoF he has demonstrated more trust of adults, thanks to the 
> >  kindness of the Weasleys and the trust of Dumbledore. 
> 
> I have to agree with your answer, Trinia, but let me offer this as 
well....
> 
> You have to keep in mind that the Harry Potter books are first and 
foremost a 
> medium of entertainment. A child who lives strictly by the rules, 
and never 
> has any adventures would be a boring child to read about. Could you 
imagine 
> reading a book series about Percy Weasly's days at Hogwarts? BOR-
ING! Instead 
> of having meaningful chapters like the House Elf Liberation Front 
in GoF, 
> you'd have "Harry, Ron and Hermione Do Their Homework." YAWN. No 
thanks.
> 

I think that's the best retort to the attacks made against HP on 
moral grounds. You are so right - the books are for fun!! Why SHOULD 
a fun book be expected to teach morals? It's such a sanctimonious, 
kill-joy kind of attitude! Do you remember the Duchess in Alice? 

"'You're thinking about something, my dear, and that makes you
forget to talk.  I can't tell you just now what the moral of that
is, but I shall remember it in a bit.'

  `Perhaps it hasn't one,' Alice ventured to remark.

  `Tut, tut, child!' said the Duchess.  `Everything's got a
moral, if only you can find it.'" 

Begone victorianisms!!

Naama, who never needs much of an excuse to quote from Alice..  

----------
flamingoes and mustard both bite.  And the moral of that is--"Birds 
of a feather flock together." (Alice in Wonderland)
----------





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed May  2 16:38:00 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:38:00 EST5EDT
Subject: Harry hits 100 million mark
Message-ID: <3684E05568@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18030

Thought this was awesome!!!!
(and sorry if it posts twice...I've been having e-mail problems today)

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/eo/20010502/en/harry_potter_and_the
_big_milestone_1.html

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Oh, the thrill of the chase as I soar through the air
With the Snitch up ahead and the wind in my hair
As I draw ever closer, the crowd gives a shout
But then comes a Bludger and I am knocked out.

"I don't know who Jim Henson is but I've heard he has his hand in a 
lot of things around here." - Kermit the Frog, 1972



From nera at rconnect.com  Wed May  2 20:49:10 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:49:10 -0000
Subject: Question re: Nearly Headless Nick
In-Reply-To: <9cltgf+h59i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cprs6+higi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18031

> > 
> > In CoS, is Nearly Headless Nick revived?  I can't see how he 
could 
> > be, because he wouldn't be able to take the mandrake potion.  
I've 
> > also realised that I can't find a reference to him in any either 
> PoA 
> > or GoF.  I know it is off-topic, but I have been wondering about 
> it 
> > for a while.
> > 
> > Catherine
*******************************
>From SS/PS:
"That does look good," said the ghost in the ruff sadly,
watching Harry cut up his steak,
"Can't you --?"
    "I haven't eaten for nearly four hundred years," said the
ghost. "I don't need to, of course, but one does miss it. I don't
think I've introduced myself? Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington at
your service. Resident ghost of Gryffindor Tower."

And from CoS:
"Curiously, it was Nearly Headless Nick's fate that seemed to worry 
people most. What could possibly do that to a ghost? People asked 
each other; what terrible power could harm someone who was already 
dead?" 

************
It does seem to appear that it would be impossible to give Nick any 
kind of oral medication, since he has not eaten for nearly four 
hundred years.

It does *not*, however, say that he *can not* eat, only that he *has 
not* eaten. hmmmmm And they *do* have food at his Death Day Party. 

Perhaps, instead of a *potion*, Madame Pomfrey makes the potion into 
a mist or a smoke form of the same medicine which the others take. 
Maybe she just wafts it *through* him.

Perhaps, since Nick is a ghost, he is not affected like the others. 
Maybe his petrification is only a temporary state, which just wears 
off after a while.

Nick is in both CoS and GoF... so let's hope there is a way out of 
this sticky sitution. 

All of this, of course, is just more food for thought for the HPFGU.:)
By the way, Catherine,this discussion is very much On Topic. :)

Doreen, who likes Nick, but Peeves is still her favorite.




"Why would anyone want to celebrate the day they died?" said Ron,
who was halfway through his Potions homework and grumpy. "Sounds
dead depressing to me. . . ."

















From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 19:48:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 19:48:25 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEFPDJAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <9cpoa9+qkob@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18032

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> JKR Quote:
> 
> "In book 5, we go into a whole new area, physically, an area
> you've never seen before, a magical world"
> (Entertainment Weekly Interview, September 2000)
> 
> This doesn't sound like Azkaban, the MoM, or St. Mungo's -- it 
sounds like
> another dimension.

In the Newsround interview, she says:

"Harry visits a few places that have been mentioned in the books, but 
we've never got inside before.  He visits places other than Diagon 
Alley and Hogwarts.  People will be able to guess where, I'm sure."

So as things stand right now, Harry is going to visit a whole new 
magical world; a room in Hogwarts whose significance he's been unaware 
of; and places we've heard of but haven't seen the inside of.  That's 
quite an itinerary.  I'm excited, but I hope we get some plain old 
Gryffindor common room time too!

Amy Z
feeling homesick for Hogwarts . . .




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May  2 15:18:52 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:18:52 -0000
Subject: Other magic trains, was Re: Muggle Places
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F130XX50yki4js0000a3dc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cp8gs+up5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18033

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Mecki wrote:
> >
> >In Ps one of the Weasley's ( I forgot who), asked another<g> "which
> >platform doeas the train go?(or similiar). This indicates IMHO that
> >there are more wizard plattforms on King's Cross. No wizard would
> >believe the Hogwarts Express to leave from a muggle plattform.
> >Does that sound completly weird, or have I just noticed something 
new?

This is an interesting point, though. I believe it was discussed on 
here once upon a time. But why in the world did Molly Weasley have to 
ask which platform it was? She'd sent her kids off to Hogwarts year 
after year since who knows when. She sounds like it's all new to her, 
or that she'd forgotten over the summer. 

1) did they change the platform recently?
2) did they change the mode of transport recently?
3) is she just being playful or teasing with Ginny, pretending to 
forget since Ginny was so excited?

It's actually an example of how JKR's world wasn't fully developed in 
that detail yet when she wrote PS/SS. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
to which I just added a page for Platform 9 and 3/4
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 16:47:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 16:47:27 -0000
Subject: Percy's motivations
In-Reply-To: <3AEEE941.8A64C76@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <9cpdmv+lhkj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18034

Firebolt wrote

<lots of cool stuff about Percy>

> PS I hope there wasn't a Percy Weasley discussion that I missed 
during
> my frequent disappearances, and I'm not repeating old material...

You've written lots of new material; at least, it's all new to me.

We did have some Percy discussions, you'll be delighted to know--check 
out a thread that got going around message 15000 and simmered along on 
and off right through Ron Week.  Have fun!

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
   "Dumbledore, you know what that woman =is=?"
   "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress--
 and an excellent dancer," said Dumbledore quietly.
                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed May  2 17:34:28 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:34:28 -0000
Subject: Minerva the Cat
In-Reply-To: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503C0FD@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <9cpgf4+10rjn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18035

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson 
<aviationoutreachcoord at m...> wrote:
> Speaking of ties into the outside world...
> Has anyone read the Redwall books by Brian Jacques?  I decided to 
give them
> a try so I could try to read something not Harry-related for once, 
and I
> have a few comments.  First of all, These books are critically 
acclaimed and
> said to be 'good for children.'  I would agree with that, but I 
want to know
> how HP gets a bad rap for being violent, or using drugs, etc. and 
this book
> doesn't.  So far, half-way through the first book, several people 
have been
> killed without remorse by a 'bad guy' (who happens to be a rat) who 
is happy
> to kill anyone who stands in his way, even those close to him.  The 
same bad
> guy's been healed using potions (made up by a vixen).  I don't see 
how this
> is any better than HP, and in fact is much more graphic and 
violent.  Hmm.
>  
> The other thing I found interesting is the bad rat has a henchman 
named
> Wormtail who lost his hand. Any ideas?
>  
> Mer
> 

I think Redwall gets away with the violence because the characters 
are all animals. The Redwall Abbey mice and the fox healers use 
potions as medications. I think in Redwall, Sela the vixen, admits to 
using rattles and chants to give an aura of magic, eventhough she 
knows magic doesn't have anything to do with her healing potions. The 
closest thing to magic in the Redwall books is the appearance of 
Martin the Warrior in prophetic dreams/visions. The series doesn't 
have wizards or witches.

Brian Jacques has said that he likes his baddies bad and his good-
guys good. He's said that he doesn't want anyone thinking that his 
baddies could possibly have a good side. Unfortunately, that means 
there's going to be some violence. But, Jacques' has made a few of 
his vermin capable of redeeming their inate evilness. There is Veil 
in "Outcast of Redwall" and a searat (can't remember which novel) who 
became a "good-guy". 

By and large, Redwall violence seems more violent than HP violence 
because the Redwallers don't use magic to fight their foes. They use 
weapons and their own physicial strength. Killing Cedric Diggory has 
a more 'antiseptic' quality because there wasn't the clash of sword 
steel etc. Cedric's death was the uttering of the curse, a whooshing 
sound and a flash of light. It's a little "cleaner". But it's violent 
nonetheless.

I noticed the two Wormtails too. Probably a coincidence.

:-)Milz





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed May  2 17:19:28 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:19:28 -0000
Subject: Magic in the Bible
In-Reply-To: <9cnvg8+7vne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cpfj0+d20l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18036

	Joshua Trachtenberg, in "Jewish Magic and Superstition" (out of 
print and  hard to find) explains that the distinction between magic 
and religion has always been subject to political considerations. 
Governments seek to enhance their authority with the power of religion. 
One of the ways to do this is to label the beliefs and practices of 
those who oppose them as magical or superstitious.
	The Talmud (the compilation of early rabbinic interpretations of 
Jewish Law which defines Orthodox Judaism) contains many  incantations 
and cures. Later Rabbis forbade the use of these, saying their proper 
application was no longer certain.
	 The Rabbis also  forbade as sorcery any attempt to discern the 
properties of natural objects by experimentation. This prohibition was 
eventually dropped, citing Proverbs 25:2, "It is the glory of God to 
conceal a thing; but the glory of kings is to search out a matter."
	In the real world, to pull this back on topic, we may have a far 
harder task than the Wizards do in deciding what should be called magic 
and what should not.
Pippin





From nera at rconnect.com  Wed May  2 18:44:40 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:44:40 -0000
Subject: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <9ck377+9796@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cpkio+5e08@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18037

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> 
> > > 
> >  Yeh, well I can out-nitpick Steve's post. (I am not the self-
> > appointed president of the League Of Obsessed Nitpickers for 
> nothing, 
> > you know.)  The original poster's (don't know who, sorry) 
spelling 
> of 
> > "Eeylops" is correct.  Steve's spelling, "Eyelops" is not.  It 
was 
> > probably just a typo on Steve's part, however, I have seen it 
> > mispelled the same way in other places, including on either the 
> > Scholastic or WB site.
> 
> Yep, it was a typo. Sorry. I panicked, though, and quickly checked 
> the Lexicon to make sure I hadn't typed it wrong there too. Looks 
> like I was okay. *whew*
> Steve Vander Ark
**************************
tsk tsk tsk ... there goes yer crown.

While we are nitpicking about Crookshanks, has there been any 
discussion as to why Crookshanks was so very friendly to Sirius Black 
in the Shrieking Shack scenes? He first befriended him and helped him 
when he was in animagi form, and then tried to protect him against 
harm in the Shack. Any answers ... new or old?

Doreen, who loses sleep over things like this.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 17:34:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:34:35 -0000
Subject: Where Harry will go next
In-Reply-To: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cpgfb+s4n9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18038

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., booleanfox at y... wrote:
> I have seen on the BBC's Newsround website (for those non-Brits, 
> Newsround is like a children's version of the news) that JKR has 
> revealed that Harry is to visit somewhere in Book 5 that we have 
read 
> about but that we haven't been to yet.

Yes, and for those who haven't heard the interview yet, she 
specifically says he goes somewhere besides Diagon Alley and Hogwarts. 
 So this is a different "new place" ("new places," actually) than the 
"room at Hogwarts" we've also gotten hints about. 

Azkaban and Godric's Hollow are the best bets, I suppose, but I'd 
also really like to see him go to St. Mungo's--imagine the angst 
potential!  I also want to see inside Mrs. Figg's house (JKR says 
Harry goes to places =we= haven't been inside before--they could be 
places he's been to already).

Amy Z

P.S. Re: the recent Godric's Hollow discussion--James and Lily 
definitely lived in a "cottage," not a manor--see GF 14, first 
class with Moody.
 
------------------------------------------------
 "Flint nearly kills the Gryffindor Seeker,
 which could happen to anyone, I'm sure . . . "
	    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  2 15:59:47 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:59:47 -0000
Subject: Questions
In-Reply-To: <9cnk79+mbbo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cpatj+jr9b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18039

Joywitch wrote:

>  Actually IIRC, she 
> says that Lily was in Gryffindor, and then when someone asks What 
> position James played on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, she says 
> chaser (or maybe keeper?), implying that the questioner was correct 
> in the assumption that James was also in Gryffindor.

Exactly--and it was Chaser.  It's from a Scholastic interview.

She could have driven us all crazy by catching the assumption and 
saying "How come everyone's so sure James was in Gryffindor?" but she 
missed the opportunity.  ;-)

Welcome, Toby!

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 Crabbe and Goyle chuckled trollishly.
             -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
---------------------------------------------




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 14:00:35 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 14:00:35 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cp3u3+gjqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18040

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., booleanfox at y... wrote:

> They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the Ministry of 
> Magic, but it got me thinking...
> 
> I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban - surely no matter what 
> awful things might happen in OoP he's still just a child and won't 
be 
> sent there (as is =made= to go there) or be imprisoned?  And by the 
> same token surely he wouldn't want to visit the place voluntarily, 
> (unless he is trying to overcome his fear of Dementors?) - can 
anyone 
> think of anybody he'd want to go and see, unless (GASP!) Sirius is 
> caught!!!! (I'm thinking out loud as I type here, as you can 
probably 
> tell...)

GASP!! I can't stand the thought, but let's face it Rita Skeeter knows 
about him, and the l;ogical plot progression would be that at SOME 
POINT things are going to come to a head for Sirius. I cna't see Harry 
going there, but maybe the narrative will.



> Overall, I think I would like to see him visit the Ministry of 
Magic, 
> or perhaps St Mungos with Neville to see the Longbottoms - I'd like 
> the troika's friendship with Neville to strengthen as he needs a 
> friend and Harry has just found out a lot of upsetting stuff about 
> him.


I thought about St. Mungo's-- I think we are going to learn much more 
about the Longbottoms. I also thought about Malfoy Manor and that 
mysterious secret chamber underneath the dining room floor. That 
tidbit has been left hanging for two books now....

--Suzanne




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 14:15:34 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 14:15:34 -0000
Subject: What's up?
Message-ID: <9cp4q6+r3mr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18041

For some reason, I have not received any posts in the past 24 hours.  
Has anyone else had this problem, especially those of you who have 
yahoo addy's?

Sorry for the OT post.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 13:38:45 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:38:45 -0000
Subject: A pet theory -- Thoughts about where the Muggle/Wizards Worlds Collide
In-Reply-To: <003401c0d2ab$c93c80c0$a53570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9cp2l5+e7se@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18042

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Egg On My Head said:
> 

> On the general point you led with, I'm sure that most writers are 
influenced
> or inspired by the world around them.  An interesting aspect of 
fantasy
> writing is how much of the real world creeps in and how much is left 
to pure
> invention (if there is such a thing).  I'd say that fantasy writing
> generally has its anchors in the real world and I like the way JKR 
uses this
> connection between fantasy and reality as an opportunity to explain 
the
> magical causes of mysterious or even actual events in the real 
Muggle*
> world.


Very well put Neil. I think Eggonmyhead came up with a creative idea, 
but one which probably is too politically senstive to discuss in this 
group. I think he also acknowledged that at the end of his post, 
right? So eggonmyhead, I sincerely hope you are not hurt by the 
response to this. Keep posting!!

On a side note: I kind of like it when writers bring in a bit of the 
real world. One fanfiction example that springs to my mind is Sirius's 
lawyer in "A Sirius Affair", a complex person who at one point talks 
about his childhood as a wizard in Northern Ireland. I was very moved 
by that and deeply felt the reality of that character.

An off-topic point which brings me back on-topic:

I am wondering in JKR will eventually bring in the Muggle point of 
view in her books, introduce us to some well-developed muggle 
characters, or if we are going to see more of those places where the 
muggle/wizard world collide or impact upon each other. The two worlds 
seem so separate right now-- so far it sounds like only Dumbledore 
reads the muggle papers!

Do wizards concern themselves with the events in the Middle East? 
Is there a wizard branch of Amnesty International which might take 
up the cause of Sirius Black? Are there any Feminist witch magazines 
that examine issues like coming out as a lesbian in the wizard world? 
How does the economy impact upon the value of the galleon?  

My humble two knuts....

--Suzanne





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Wed May  2 21:52:32 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 21:52:32 -0000
Subject: Percy Weasley and the Deeply Boring Book (was Harry's ethics)
In-Reply-To: <9cpafg+8no1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cpvj0+bos6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18043

"Amy Z"  wrote:
> 
> Oh, I bet old Percy has a more interesting life than he lets on.  
If the book told all, we know there would be at least one chapter 
called "Snogging in the Dungeons."
> 
> Amy Z
> Acting Spokeswoman, Percy Lovers Unite! (the permanent spokeswoman 
is on maternity leave)

So nice to know that Percy Lovers Unite! has more than just two 
members (Penny & me).

I think that Percy holds his cards close to his chest.  In a large 
family such as his, I'm willing to bet that privacy is hard to come 
by.  I think Percy doesn't share much with Gred & Forge (who are a 
single unit pledged to teasing the life out of him) or with baby 
brother Ron and forget about Ginny (who is a reported "chatterbox" at 
home when Harry is not around).  Maybe he confides in Bill or Charlie 
via owl post.  Who knows?  I'm thinking he's a still water that runs 
deep.

Trina 
President, Percy Lovers Unite!




From ender_w at msn.com  Wed May  2 23:00:43 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:00:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix 
References: <9coeo7+iri8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c0d35b$b8020a40$1fe7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 18044

HP galleries has suggested that he might visit Godric's Hollow.  With everything about to happen, maybe Harry or Dumbledore, or even Sirius decide that it's finally time for Harry to know what happened to his parents and why...ok, I know he knows what happened, or at least we think he does, but maybe there's a reason for him to visit his old home and the site of his parents' death.

ender
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: booleanfox at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:59 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix 


  I have seen on the BBC's Newsround website (for those non-Brits, 
  Newsround is like a children's version of the news) that JKR has 
  revealed that Harry is to visit somewhere in Book 5 that we have read 
  about but that we haven't been to yet.

  They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the Ministry of 
  Magic, but it got me thinking...

  I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban - surely no matter what 
  awful things might happen in OoP he's still just a child and won't be 
  sent there (as is =made= to go there) or be imprisoned?  And by the 
  same token surely he wouldn't want to visit the place voluntarily, 
  (unless he is trying to overcome his fear of Dementors?) - can anyone 
  think of anybody he'd want to go and see, unless (GASP!) Sirius is 
  caught!!!! (I'm thinking out loud as I type here, as you can probably 
  tell...)

  Overall, I think I would like to see him visit the Ministry of Magic, 
  or perhaps St Mungos with Neville to see the Longbottoms - I'd like 
  the troika's friendship with Neville to strengthen as he needs a 
  friend and Harry has just found out a lot of upsetting stuff about 
  him.

  Anyone else got any thoughts on all this?

  Love Boolean the Fox

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
       
       

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From natabat at crosswinds.net  Wed May  2 23:06:40 2001
From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:06:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange places you find HP mentioned
References: <004a01c0d26b$11cdaf80$3942063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <005e01c0d35c$916bffc0$0101a8c0@hp>

No: HPFGUIDX 18045

I've got a couple!

He was mentioned on Angel last night. I don't want to spoil the ep (even
though it would only be minor), so I'll just leave it at that.

Today, in my AP Euro Hist class, we were talking about how cold it was. My
teacher, trying to be funny, said something about how "Mr. Neale (my
teacher) is dead and he just keeps teaching. Have you ever read the Harry
Potter books? (He got a resounding "No!" from the girl he was talking to.
She's apparently very religious). There was a teacher in there who died and
just kept teaching." Of course, I only caught the tail end of the
conversation, so I couldn't jump in (and suck up! <g>)

Natalie
natabat at flashmail.com / natabat at crosswinds.net
http://www.natabat.com
-----
"The man with the best job in the country is the Vice President. All he has
to do is get up every morning and say, "How's the President?"
- Will Rogers


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michelle Apostolides" <michelleapostolides at lineone.net>
To: "HPforGrownups" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:18 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange places you find HP mentioned


> Hi
>
> I'm one of those strange people who read their horoscope mist days - in
> fact every day ! Anyway - looked at my horoscope for today and found
> this !!
>
> A Boggart, according to JK Rowling, is a mystical creature that hides in
> dark places. If you look at it, it takes the shape of whatever - or
> whoever, you fear the most. Life, of course, is not a Harry Potter
> novel. Boggarts, as such, do not exist. But in our minds, we all have a
> Boggart. It waits till it thinks it can scare us and then it fills our
> head with reasons to feel afraid. To beat a Boggart, you have to summon
> your sense of humour. Laughter is the only emotion that's more powerful
> than fear. Find something to smile about today. And stop worrying.
>
> It made me smile to just read it. Must remember a boggart next time I
> come up against something or someone I don't like !!!
>
> Michelle
>
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 23:10:47 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:10:47 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
In-Reply-To: <9cp0at+sikf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cq45n+6i0c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18046

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hpconference at y... wrote:
> I am positivily wringing my hands in delight!  THis is exactly what 
> I'm taking about -- the scholarship is out there -- YOU'RE out 
there, 
> we know you are.  ANswer the HP conference survey please, please -- 
> I've only gotten a hand full of reposes so for and I'm very 
> depressed. <snif snif>


Where is the poll?




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed May  2 18:26:43 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:26:43 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
In-Reply-To: <9cnm1f+69h0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cpjh3+b9bn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18047

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> Recently I attended a class at the San Francisco Jung Institute, 
and 
> while I was there obtained a copy of their quarterly journal. Lo 
and 
> behold, I open it up and what do I find? THREE articles on Harry 
> Potter! Two are positive, one is negative. 
> 
> The one negative essay, considering the nature of the other 
articles 
> in the journal, seems to be a token article; whoever was putting it 
> together decided, "Well, we have to show all sides" and tossed it 
in 
> there. It is the only one of the three that I would not 
> call "scholarly" (the other two are reviews of the books using 
> Jungian psychology). Written by Harold Bloom, and originally 
> appearing in The Wall Street Journal, the negative article ("Can 35 
> Million Book Buyers Be Wrong? Yes.") focuses on how HP is not well-
> written and in fact full of cliches. Bloom finds 
Hogwarts "tiresome," 
> and says that, "When the future witches and wizards of Great 
Britain 
> are not studying how to cast a spell, they preoccupy themselves 
with 
> bizarre intramural sports." ^_^
> 
> It should be noted that the author read only the first book (which 
> someone told him was the best -- *shrugs* -- I myself greatly 
prefer 
> both the third and the fourth). I found everything in the article 
to 
> be a complete matter of opinion. (He didn't like Quidditch! *sigh* 
If 
> you can't like something like Quidditch, than there's no hope for 
you 
> to like HP in general.)
> 

The Quidditch matches are the parts of the books I 'speed read' 
through. I don't find them particularly interesting.

> However, the other two articles are very interesting, especially if 
> one knows anything about Jungian psychology. The first article, a 
> short one called "The Ghost of Moaning Myrtle Who Haunts the First 
> Floor Toilet, Platform Nine and Three Quarters at King's Cross 
> Station . . . and all that" by Marilyn Nagy at first discusses HP 
in 
> relation to other British children's literature such as Oliver 
Twist 
> and Little Men.


"Little Men" is British??? 


> Specifically, she focuses on HP as a moral tale. For 
> instance, in relation to that often-quoted passage in CS when 
> Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what 
we 
> truly are, far more than our abilities," Nagy says, "What the 
> presence of the grown-ups signifies, I believe, is counsel against 
> despair, and most particularly, against a belief that our decision-
> making is a matter of moral indifference." 
> 
> Shortly after this, the article makes a transition into an essay on 
> defining the Jungian movement as a moral heritage when Nagy 
> claims, "The drama of the analytical process is like the drama of 
the 
> morality story and both of these, of course, are meant to be 
> symbolically as close to real life as can be." In the end, Nagy 
sums 
> up by saying, "The surprise -- and I keep thinking that Owl Post is 
> going to drop a Howler in my lap if I dare to say this -- is that 
> here we are in the year 2000 with a grand new hero in a magnificent 
> story which is a morality tale. It mirrors the morality tales of 
150 
> years ago, and has very near relatives in all the morality stories 
I 
> can ever remember reading."
> 
> Hah, take that all those people who call HP "amoral" or "immoral."

HP is a "moral tale", but so are most fairy tales and people find 
some of them rather unfit for the literary consumption of children. 
The original Grimm's Tales, IMO, are far more entertaining than the 
cleaned-up versions.

> 
> The second article, "The Secrets of Harry Potter" by Gail A. 
> Grynbaum, is much longer -- 32 pages in fact -- and approaches HP 
> from a truly psychological (as opposed to moral or literary) point 
of 
> view. It summarizes all four books and calls them an "alchemical 
> reading experience, a revelation of secrets and strata previously 
> reserved to the contemplation of the woodcuts in Jung's essays on 
> alchemy or to the Jungian analysis of dreams." If you are familiar 
> with Jungian psychology, you will know that this is a highly 
> complimentary statement.
> 
> Grynbaum focuses on both the dreamlike atmosphere of HP and on the 
> archetypes that are present: that of the Orphan, the Vampire, and 
the 
> Resilient Young Masculine. I, myself, (though I am no Jungian 
expert) 
> would add the Wise Old Man and David vs. Goliath to that list. The 
> article explores some of the mythology behind the books (the origin 
> of the names of Harry's parents, for instance -- St. James was the 
> patron saint of alchemists and physicians, and a lily represents 
> purity, immortality, salvation, and the Virgin Mary), as well as 
the 
> psychology behind the books (I'm betting that JKR herself would be 
> very interested in reading this, since I doubt she ever had any of 
> this in mind). One section bares the rather silly name (I think) 
> of "Quidditch Player of the Soul" (^_^).


IIRC, the patron saints for Physicians are Sts. Cosmas and Damien, 
St. Luke and St. Panteleone. The ones for chemists and pharmacists 
are Sts. Cosmas and Damien. St. James is patron of laborers.


> The article also goes 
> into "Harry Potter as a Contemporary Shaman," saying that, "Harry 
> Potter is an inspiring vision of a contemporary Western shaman with 
> whom a hope lies that he will show us how to retrieve lost soul."
> 
> Finally, "The Secrets of Harry Potter" has this to say about HP's 
> fans: "Perhaps Harry Potter's fans constitute a generation across 
age 
> lines that feels somewhat orphaned and unprotected and, along with 
> Harry, know the despair of spiritual emptiness and emotional 
> starvation." Hm . . . I don't know that I agree with that.
> 

I don't completely agree with her but I see her point. I think Harry, 
Ron and Hermione have the same fears that we all can relate to in one 
way or the other. 

:-)Milz




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed May  2 23:33:19 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:33:19 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
In-Reply-To: <9cov0g+schb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cq5fv+2ab1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18048

First of all, please excuse the double post. I posted once and came 
back several hours later and it had not appeared so I posted again. 

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> > 
> > It should be noted that the author read only the first book 
(which 
> > someone told him was the best -- *shrugs* -- I myself greatly 
> prefer 
> > both the third and the fourth). I found everything in the article 
> to 
> > be a complete matter of opinion. (He didn't like Quidditch! 
*sigh* 
> If 
> > you can't like something like Quidditch, than there's no hope for 
> you 
> > to like HP in general.)
> 
> Obviously he should have read all four books before rating them. 
> Honestly, I don't mind if someone tells me they don't like the HP 
> books.  We all have different likes and dislikes.  For instance, I 
> love the books but I would not be disappointed if I never read 
about 
> another Quidditch match.  It is just not very interesting to me.  
It 
> has become way too predictable and therefore it bores me.

Ah, well, to each his or her own -- I just don't think that opinions 
should be passed off as any sort of literary criticism. I was citing 
the Quidditch example of how the article was filled with things 
that "are just a matter of opinion" and that he had nothing to back 
up his opinions with (at least, none that he gave).

> In the end, Nagy sums 
> > up by saying, "The surprise -- and I keep thinking that Owl Post 
is 
> > going to drop a Howler in my lap if I dare to say this -- is that 
> > here we are in the year 2000 with a grand new hero in a 
magnificent 
> > story which is a morality tale. It mirrors the morality takes of 
> 150 
> > years ago, and has very near relatives in all the morality 
stories 
> I 
> > can ever remember reading."
> > 
> > Hah, take that all those people who call HP "amoral" or "immoral."
> 
> Of course this is just this person's opinion.  Yes, they are some 
> moral teachings in the books.  There are, IMHO, some immoral things 
> that Harry does also.

Well, of course there are some things that could be construed as 
immoral (or at least disobedient) -- he's a teenage boy. But overall, 
I agree with Nagy in that the books are a moral tale. Incidentally, 
the "immoral" decisions that Harry makes are part of the reason that 
I *like* HP and I *hate* Oliver Twist. Oliver is *so* flat -- what a 
good little boy! Please excuse me while I puke.
 
> > Finally, Grynbaum has this to say about HP fans: "Perhaps Harry 
> > Potter's fans constitute a generation across age lines that feels 
> > somewhat orphaned and unprotected and, along with Harry, know the 
> > dispair of spiritual emptiness and emotional starvation." I don't 
> > know that I agree with that.
> 
> 
> None of that ever crossed my mind when reading the books and 
speaking 
> only for myself, I don't feel *orphaned and unprotected, know the 
> dispair of spiritual emptiness and emotional starvation*. But as I 
> have said before, I don't get into all that physiological 
examination 
> stuff.  

Well, I'm growing to love psychology and I already love literature, 
and I still don't agree with that statement. If all the people who 
read HP are emotionally starved and spiritually empty, then we have a 
gigantic problem on our hands.

Stacy
> 
> Koinonia




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed May  2 23:57:12 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:57:12 -0000
Subject: Moon Charts
In-Reply-To: <9cmh3m+11a3j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cq6so+dj76@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18049

Amy Z wrote:


> I was just the other day counting between Halloween and Christmas 
to try to make the full moons match up.  It bugs me that they don't, 
but at least the transformations are spaced at roughly the right 
times. There is a hilariously bad movie called Werewolf (I recommend 
the Mystery Science Theater 3000 version--no one should watch this 
movie unaided) in which the moon is full night after night in order 
to accommodate the plot.  I found this unforgivable, yet I'm willing 
to cut PA lots of slack.  But I would have been much happier if the 
moon  really worked in PA.
>>>>


I was looking up lunar charts for a story I'm writing and I thought 
I'd put this as a little FYI after reading your post. It shows all 
the full moons During PoA(1993-94). Right off the bat the first full 
moon was moved to accommodate the story. Can't have Lupin miss the 
opening feast after all. See if you all can spot where others were 
moved to accommodate the story. Just a slight plot hole I've noticed 
after really develing into PoA.

The full moons occured on the following days in RL: Sep.1 and 30, 
Oct.30, Nov. 29, Dec. 28, Jan. 27, Feb. 26, Mar. 27, Apr. 25, May 25, 
Jun 23, and Jul. 22.

Cheers, 

    Kristin

::goes back to cursing the evil Yahoo that seems to have taken over 
the last few days. Anyone up for storming the castle?::




From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May  3 00:19:16 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 00:19:16 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cpoa9+qkob@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cq864+a7fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18050


> 
> So as things stand right now, Harry is going to visit a whole new 
> magical world; a room in Hogwarts whose significance he's been 
unaware 
> of; and places we've heard of but haven't seen the inside of.  
That's 
> quite an itinerary.  I'm excited, but I hope we get some plain old 
> Gryffindor common room time too!
> 
> Amy Z
> feeling homesick for Hogwarts . . .

Maybe he'll go to the Isle of Drear and meet up with the Hairy 
MacBoons. :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw*******************************************




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu May  3 00:06:24 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 01:06:24 +0100
Subject: What is permissible? (was Re: A pet theory concerning magic in the real world.)
References: <9co4ii+h5oo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01ca01c0d364$e4b918e0$a23570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 18051

Haggridd said:

<snipped whole messages posted by Egg On My Head and myself>
<snipped note that the above had caused confusion; references to the recent
thread of discussion with Richard Abanes>

<<My point is that drawing any inference, any parallel, or any conclusion
from any portion of the real world outside the covers of the seven present
and planned HP books will offend the sensibilities of someone, somewhere,at
sometime.  Where do we draw the line?  I hope that noone feels attacked,
because I am attacking nobody.  The bounds of discussion is a topic of great
interest to us all.>>

My personal view is that there is no easy answer to this, as we all choose
to draw our lines in different places.  From the moderators' viewpoint I can
confirm that the following is included in our netiquette file:

"OT Politics: Political opinion posts are banned for the moment. OT
discussions crept in during the US elections and some people were offended
by the comments of others, so we think it's best to avoid this sensitive OT
area altogether. Thanks for cooperating with us on this."

This is the only stated ban in place, although, IIRC, we previously advised
against discussing the Holocaust after another discussion about the Death
Eaters went astray and caused bad feeling.

In the the case in discussion, I was merely sounding a note of caution, as a
reference to the Northern Ireland situation *could* drift into OT political
comments.

I have already commented on the recent discussion with Mr Abanes, so I don't
wish to go over that again.

In general, it would be restrictive to have too many upfront bans in place,
so the moderators rely on the common sense of list members to avoid
potentially contentious topics and observe the netiquette advice on
respecting others' views. If a problem does develop with a discussion, one
of the moderators may step in with specific advice or comments.

If anyone has any concerns about posting on a topic, by all means pass it by
the moderators first.

Just to reiterate: discussion of JKR's influences in the real world is, IMO,
on topic and perfectly valid.

Neil (struggling out of the moderating thighboots... )
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu May  3 00:34:55 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 00:34:55 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cp3u3+gjqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cq93f+j9en@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18052

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., booleanfox at y... wrote:
> 
> > They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the Ministry 
of 
> > Magic, but it got me thinking...
> > 
> > I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban - surely no matter what 
> > awful things might happen in OoP he's still just a child and 
won't 
> be 
> > sent there (as is =made= to go there) or be imprisoned?  And by 
the 
> > same token surely he wouldn't want to visit the place 
voluntarily, 
> > (unless he is trying to overcome his fear of Dementors?) - can 
> anyone 
> > think of anybody he'd want to go and see, unless (GASP!) Sirius 
is 
> > caught!!!! (I'm thinking out loud as I type here, as you can 
> probably 
> > tell...)
> 
> GASP!! I can't stand the thought, but let's face it Rita Skeeter 
knows 
> about him, and the l;ogical plot progression would be that at SOME 
> POINT things are going to come to a head for Sirius. I cna't see 
Harry 
> going there, but maybe the narrative will.

Yes, but Sirius still has the Dementor's Kiss sentence hanging over 
his head. If Harry is going to visit him after a recapture and an all-
expenses-paid trip back to Azkaban, he will be visiting a human husk 
with no soul.  Maybe Harry and Ron will have to finagle a way to get 
to Azkaban to visit a Weasley brother who ends up in some sort of 
legal trouble.

Or, maybe we'll visit the MOM for a hearing/trial concerning Sirius' 
attempt to clear his name.

> 
> > Overall, I think I would like to see him visit the Ministry of 
> Magic, 
> > or perhaps St Mungos with Neville to see the Longbottoms - I'd 
like 
> > the troika's friendship with Neville to strengthen as he needs a 
> > friend and Harry has just found out a lot of upsetting stuff 
about 
> > him.
> 
> 
> I thought about St. Mungo's-- I think we are going to learn much 
more 
> about the Longbottoms. I also thought about Malfoy Manor and that 
> mysterious secret chamber underneath the dining room floor. That 
> tidbit has been left hanging for two books now....
> 
> --Suzanne

I like the St. Mungo's idea.  I think that the gradual revelations 
over the course of the books concerning the Longbottoms will have to 
have some resolution. 
I often think about Neville as being the potential Peter Pettigrew of 
this generation.  Not necessarily as someone who will go bad, but as 
someone who needs the help and protection of others.  It will be 
interesting to see if H-H-R lose Neville as J-S-R lost Peter.

Marianne





From pbarhug at earthlink.net  Thu May  3 01:42:41 2001
From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 21:42:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Other magic trains, was Re: Muggle Places
References: <9cp8gs+up5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF0B791.8B0D1E4E@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18053



Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> This is an interesting point, though. I believe it was discussed on
> here once upon a time. But why in the world did Molly Weasley have to
> ask which platform it was? She'd sent her kids off to Hogwarts year
> after year since who knows when. She sounds like it's all new to her,
> or that she'd forgotten over the summer.
>
> 1) did they change the platform recently?
> 2) did they change the mode of transport recently?
> 3) is she just being playful or teasing with Ginny, pretending to
> forget since Ginny was so excited?
>
> It's actually an example of how JKR's world wasn't fully developed in
> that detail yet when she wrote PS/SS.
>

Actually, I think it's a little more benign (mundane?) than that.  It's
a trick or game that parents use with their kids, just to focus on the
task or to make it a little more fun.  Molly was simply asking  a
question that she already knew the answer to probably to give Ginny a
chance to feel connected to the situation.  I often play "Where's  the
house?"---I drive past our house or around the block while the kids
shout out directions--or "Where's the car?"--same idea as we're walking
through the parking lot.  The kids think it's a blast to "know"
something I don't.  I think this is JKR's way of establishing Molly as a
mother figure in the books.  All mom's of young kids know this trick and
all the young kids I've talked to about the books know this trick too.
Having Molly do it makes her a bit more "real."

drpam




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May  3 02:06:39 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 19:06:39 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cpoa9+qkob@eGroups.com>
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEEFPDJAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010502190505.00cdb220@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18054

At 07:48 PM 5/2/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>So as things stand right now, Harry is going to visit a whole new
>magical world...

I hadn't heard this one ... What does Jo mean by a
"whole new magical world"??



                                                 -- Dave




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May  3 04:05:48 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 04:05:48 -0000
Subject: Introducing the HP4GU Contest
Message-ID: <9cqles+lq8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18055

Welcome to The HP4GU Sort-of-Weekly Contest, known also by its full 
name:  The Invitational, Magical, Exciting, Weekly, All-Smarty's 
Tournament Extraordinaire!  In order to make HP4GU a more fun and 
exciting home, especially for those of us who have absolutely no 
lives outside of it, I have (with the Moderators' permission) decided 
to inflict upon you a weekly, non-competitive yet hopefully amusing, 
contest.

This contest will consist of a variety of different activities which 
I think you will all enjoy.  Some of the contests will be written or 
designed by yours truly, but I am hoping that the rest of you will 
contribute puzzles or contest ideas as well.  All contest ideas 
should be sent to the contest email address, which is 
HP4GUCon at aol.com.  Remember, the contest is non-competitive, so there 
are no winners or losers (well, no winners anyway).

There will be a new contest every week, I hope, or almost every week, 
anyway.  There will be 3 types of contests: puzzles, creative 
contests, and speculative contests.  Puzzles consist of crosswords 
and other word puzzles, anagrams, trivia questions, etc., so if 
you've written one of these please send it to me!  Creative contests 
will consist of things like poetry-writing (more fun than you think, 
really!).  Speculative contests will consist of asking people to 
theorize about an unknown aspect of the Harry Potter universe, such 
as the recent thread on "What happens to the Hogwarts Express the 
rest of the year?"

This contest is for fun only.  There are no winners, no prizes, no 
trophies, no glory, but also no losers, no shame, and no hurt 
feelings.  Friends don't need to compete with one another, right?  
Right!  And don't forget to send those lists of trivia questions, 
word search puzzles, or other brilliant ideas to me at 
HP4GUCon at aol.com

The Rules are posted below, and will be repeated each week when a new 
contest is posted.  I will also file the rules in our files section, 
along with a contest archives (space permitting).  The first contest 
will be posted this Friday.

The Rules
1.  Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email 
address, which is HP4GUCon at aol.com.  RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED 
TO THE LIST.  Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers, to 
the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest, 
sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to eat 
bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST.

2.  Contests will be posted on Fridays.  Responses should be sent by 
email to HP4GUCon at aol.com by midnight Tuesday night.  For puzzle 
contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who 
submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted on 
Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest).  For creative and speculative 
contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a 
random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular 
contest.

3. ANSWERS SHOULD NOT BE POSTED TO THE LIST.  I know this is also 
rule # 1, but I can not stress it enough.

? Joywitch M. Curmudgeon

P.S.  There is a little tiny contest imbedded in this post.  Did you 
find it?  If so, let me know by sending email to HP4GUCon at aol.com and 
NOT BY POSTING IT TO THE LIST.




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May  3 05:17:45 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 05:17:45 -0000
Subject: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <F41DKNuj8Nmnf90z5Ea0000c291@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cqplp+74o2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18056

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hallie Usmar" <hallieu at h...> wrote:
> For some reason I'm pretty sure and Eeylop is a type of owl.  Of 
course, I 
> may be wrong, but I have this nagging feeling...
> Hallie
********************

I did too, Hallie, but I checked out several pages that had both the 
names and the scientific names of owls, and I did not find anything.
I suspect that Eeylops is another of JKR's collection of weird names.

Doreen
********************




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu May  3 06:51:52 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 06:51:52 -0000
Subject: Introducing the HP4GU Contest
In-Reply-To: <9cqles+lq8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cqv68+s8u3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18057

Hi, 
It'll be fun to have a contest every week! 
however, I am still waiting for your answers to the last one- the 
DADA-Ecam. For those, who missed it, you find it Messages

#17862 + #17863

Hey, all you HP- obsessed! Capable of nitpicking on half-senteces( I 
know it's fun<g> but not even able to answer a few simple questions 
about DADA- Lessons?(hey, don't take this seriously!)I thought you'd 
do better! 5 answers with more than 1200 obsessed members is close to 
a catastrophe (spelling?).
Or was the test so boring, you decided to ignore it? Don't! If you 
didn't like it, please post why, off-list! I have to know what went 
wrong, to make it better next time
Sorry if this is OT
Mecki

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Neville's aim was so poor that he kept accidentally sending much 
heavier things flying across the room - Professor Flittwick for 
instance.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:

> Welcome to The HP4GU Sort-of-Weekly Contest, known also by its full 
> name:  The Invitational, Magical, Exciting, Weekly, All-Smarty's 
> Tournament Extraordinaire!  In order to make HP4GU a more fun and 
> exciting home, especially for those of us who have absolutely no 
> lives outside of it, I have (with the Moderators' permission) 
decided 
> to inflict upon you a weekly, non-competitive yet hopefully amusing, 
> contest.
> 
> This contest will consist of a variety of different activities which 
> I think you will all enjoy.  Some of the contests will be written or 
> designed by yours truly, but I am hoping that the rest of you will 
> contribute puzzles or contest ideas as well.  All contest ideas 
> should be sent to the contest email address, which is 
> HP4GUCon at a...  Remember, the contest is non-competitive, so there 
> are no winners or losers (well, no winners anyway).
> 
> There will be a new contest every week, I hope, or almost every 
week, 
> anyway.  There will be 3 types of contests: puzzles, creative 
> contests, and speculative contests.  Puzzles consist of crosswords 
> and other word puzzles, anagrams, trivia questions, etc., so if 
> you've written one of these please send it to me!  Creative contests 
> will consist of things like poetry-writing (more fun than you think, 
> really!).  Speculative contests will consist of asking people to 
> theorize about an unknown aspect of the Harry Potter universe, such 
> as the recent thread on "What happens to the Hogwarts Express the 
> rest of the year?"
> 
> This contest is for fun only.  There are no winners, no prizes, no 
> trophies, no glory, but also no losers, no shame, and no hurt 
> feelings.  Friends don't need to compete with one another, right?  
> Right!  And don't forget to send those lists of trivia questions, 
> word search puzzles, or other brilliant ideas to me at 
> HP4GUCon at a...
> 
> The Rules are posted below, and will be repeated each week when a 
new 
> contest is posted.  I will also file the rules in our files section, 
> along with a contest archives (space permitting).  The first contest 
> will be posted this Friday.
> 
> The Rules
> 1.  Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email 
> address, which is HP4GUCon at a...  RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED 
> TO THE LIST.  Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers, 
to 
> the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest, 
> sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to 
eat 
> bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST.
> 
> 2.  Contests will be posted on Fridays.  Responses should be sent by 
> email to HP4GUCon at a... by midnight Tuesday night.  For puzzle 
> contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who 
> submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted on 
> Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest).  For creative and speculative 
> contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a 
> random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular 
> contest.
> 
> 3. ANSWERS SHOULD NOT BE POSTED TO THE LIST.  I know this is also 
> rule # 1, but I can not stress it enough.
> 
> ? Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
> 
> P.S.  There is a little tiny contest imbedded in this post.  Did you 
> find it?  If so, let me know by sending email to HP4GUCon at a... and 
> NOT BY POSTING IT TO THE LIST.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May  3 07:23:14 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 07:23:14 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cq864+a7fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cr112+sfdn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18058

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > So as things stand right now, Harry is going to visit a whole new 
> > magical world; a room in Hogwarts whose significance he's been 
> unaware 
> > of; and places we've heard of but haven't seen the inside of.  
> That's 
> > quite an itinerary.  I'm excited, but I hope we get some plain 
old 
> > Gryffindor common room time too!
> > 
> > Amy Z
> > feeling homesick for Hogwarts . . .
> 
> Maybe he'll go to the Isle of Drear and meet up with the Hairy 
> MacBoons. :-)


When JKR said that if she went to Hogwarts, she would visit a room 
which Harry had discovered in GoF, but hadn't discovered its magical 
properties yet, I immediately thought of the kitchens.  Are there any 
other rooms of significance that could qualify here?

Catherine




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu May  3 10:15:44 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:15:44 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cr112+sfdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crb4g+ob0u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18059

The kitchens would be a close choice, but so would Harry's 
dormitory or Dumbledore's office( I'm sure,there's more magic in it 
then we have seen)I was also thinking of the cosy little dungeon 
Nick's party had been in!
Some more thoughts?

Mecki

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Neville's aim was so poor that he kept accidentally sending much 
heavier things flying across the room 
- Professor Flittwick for instance.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:

> When JKR said that if she went to Hogwarts, she would visit a room 
> which Harry had discovered in GoF, but hadn't discovered its magical 
> properties yet, I immediately thought of the kitchens.  Are there 
any 
> other rooms of significance that could qualify here?
> 
> Catherine




From mcandrew at bigpond.com  Thu May  3 10:19:25 2001
From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:19:25 -0000
Subject: Azkaban/ Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cq93f+j9en@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crbbd+5mur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18060

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:

> > > They are betting that she means Azkaban, or possibly the 
Ministry of Magic, but it got me thinking...
> > > 
> > > I can't see why Harry would go to Azkaban - surely no matter 
what awful things might happen in OoP he's still just a child and 
> won't be sent there (as is =made= to go there) or be imprisoned?  
.....
> 
> I like the St. Mungo's idea.  I think that the gradual revelations 
> over the course of the books concerning the Longbottoms will have 
to > have some resolution. 
> 
> Marianne


Actually, I've been wondering for a while if Harry might end up being 
imprisoned for at least a short stretch in Azkaban, maybe in Book 
Five.

At the end of GoF, Harry reappears from nowhere (as far as the 
onlookers are concerned) clutching Cedric's dead body.  Later that 
night, in discussions with Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge, the Minister 
for Magic, completely discounts the idea of Voldemort's return to 
power.  He makes it plain that he doesn't believe Harry's story of 
what happened that night ("the boy can talk to snakes, Dumbledore, 
and you still think he's trustworthy?"), and that he will hold 
fanatically and irrationally to his disbelief in Voldemort's 
resurgence in the face of all arguments to the contrary.  

As Minister for Magic, Fudge is responsible for administering wizard 
law.  Sooner or later Cedric's death must be properly investigated 
and accounted for, and to someone who doesn't believe Voldemort could 
have had anything to do with it, Harry must seem like a likely (or 
convenient) culprit.  There is even a possible motive in Harry's 
rivalry with Cedric as the other leading champion in the Triwizard 
Tournament.

It may seem harsh to sentence a 15 year old to prison in Azkaban, but 
Harry is over the minimum age for criminal responsibility. We know 
that Barty Crouch Jr was imprisoned there at the age of 19.  Juvenile 
convicted murderers in muggle society are generally sentenced to some 
form of incarceration; and in the wizard world, there don't appear to 
be many alternatives to Azkaban.

On the other hand, Fudge has already hinted in his argument with 
Dumbledore that he believes Harry is becoming mentally unhinged.  
Maybe he will be found not guilty of murder on grounds of insanity, 
and be sentenced to do time in St Mungo's instead.  Either way, it 
could make for some interesting plot developments!

Lama






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May  3 10:53:01 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:53:01 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9crb4g+ob0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crdad+4rqf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18061

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> The kitchens would be a close choice, but so would Harry's 
> dormitory or Dumbledore's office( I'm sure,there's more magic in it 
> then we have seen)I was also thinking of the cosy little dungeon 
> Nick's party had been in!
> Some more thoughts?
> 
> Mecki

Yes, but JKR said that it was somewhere that Harry discovers for the 
first time in GoF.  I can't really think of anywhere apart from the 
kitchens and the room where the champions first congregate near the 
Great Hall that was new to him.  Have I missed something?

Catherine
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> 
> Neville's aim was so poor that he kept accidentally sending much 
> heavier things flying across the room 
> - Professor Flittwick for instance.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > When JKR said that if she went to Hogwarts, she would visit a 
room 
> > which Harry had discovered in GoF, but hadn't discovered its 
magical 
> > properties yet, I immediately thought of the kitchens.  Are there 
> any 
> > other rooms of significance that could qualify here?
> > 
> > Catherine




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu May  3 11:28:03 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 07:28:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix
References: <9crdad+4rqf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF140C2.C3F2A3A5@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18062



catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

>
> Yes, but JKR said that it was somewhere that Harry discovers for the
> first time in GoF.  I can't really think of anywhere apart from the
> kitchens and the room where the champions first congregate near the
> Great Hall that was new to him.  Have I missed something?

the prefect's bathroom?




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 11:48:14 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:48:14 -0000
Subject: Room to visit (was Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <9crdad+4rqf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crghu+1tfr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18063

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> > The kitchens would be a close choice, but so would Harry's 
> > dormitory or Dumbledore's office( I'm sure,there's more magic in 
it 
> > then we have seen)I was also thinking of the cosy little dungeon 
> > Nick's party had been in!
> > Some more thoughts?
> > 
> > Mecki
> 
> Yes, but JKR said that it was somewhere that Harry discovers for 
the 
> first time in GoF.  I can't really think of anywhere apart from the 
> kitchens and the room where the champions first congregate near the 
> Great Hall that was new to him.  Have I missed something?
> 
> Catherine

Yes!! The prefects' bathroom!!! What scope for fantasizing is in 
this, huh? The extra magical properties of a bathroom! Too bad this 
is an all-family list... <g>

Naama






From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 12:40:45 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:40:45 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF... (survey questions)
In-Reply-To: <9cq45n+6i0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crjkd+101k7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18064

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mgrantwich at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hpconference at y... wrote:
> > I am positivily wringing my hands in delight!  THis is exactly 
what 
> > I'm taking about -- the scholarship is out there -- YOU'RE out 
> there, 
> > we know you are.  ANswer the HP conference survey please, please -
- 
> > I've only gotten a hand full of reposes so for and I'm very 
> > depressed. <snif snif>
> 
> 
> Where is the poll?

Msg. # 17891 subject line "HP conference Possible"

Stephanie




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 13:00:59 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:00:59 -0000
Subject: Strange places you find HP mentioned
In-Reply-To: <005e01c0d35c$916bffc0$0101a8c0@hp>
Message-ID: <9crkqb+oqlq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18065

Here's another one:
THere's a show on PBS (US educational television -- where we get the 
Teletubbies) called "Between the Lions." It's about a family of lions 
who run a library (did I metion this is a kid's show?).  A few days 
ago, one of the lions was reading from SS/PS and there were all kinds 
of kids dressed up in scars and glasses with brooms.  Very cute, very 
cute show actually.

Stephanie



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" <natabat at c...> wrote:
> I've got a couple!
> 
> He was mentioned on Angel last night. I don't want to spoil the ep 
(even
> though it would only be minor), so I'll just leave it at that.
> 
> Today, in my AP Euro Hist class, we were talking about how cold it 
was. My
> teacher, trying to be funny, said something about how "Mr. Neale (my
> teacher) is dead and he just keeps teaching. Have you ever read the 
Harry
> Potter books? (He got a resounding "No!" from the girl he was 
talking to.
> She's apparently very religious). There was a teacher in there who 
died and
> just kept teaching." Of course, I only caught the tail end of the
> conversation, so I couldn't jump in (and suck up! <g>)
> 
> Natalie
> natabat at f... / natabat at c...
> http://www.natabat.com
> -----
> "The man with the best job in the country is the Vice President. 
All he has
> to do is get up every morning and say, "How's the President?"
> - Will Rogers
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michelle Apostolides" <michelleapostolides at l...>
> To: "HPforGrownups" <HPforGrownups at y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:18 AM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange places you find HP mentioned
> 
> 
> > Hi
> >
> > I'm one of those strange people who read their horoscope mist 
days - in
> > fact every day ! Anyway - looked at my horoscope for today and 
found
> > this !!
> >
> > A Boggart, according to JK Rowling, is a mystical creature that 
hides in
> > dark places. If you look at it, it takes the shape of whatever - 
or
> > whoever, you fear the most. Life, of course, is not a Harry Potter
> > novel. Boggarts, as such, do not exist. But in our minds, we all 
have a
> > Boggart. It waits till it thinks it can scare us and then it 
fills our
> > head with reasons to feel afraid. To beat a Boggart, you have to 
summon
> > your sense of humour. Laughter is the only emotion that's more 
powerful
> > than fear. Find something to smile about today. And stop worrying.
> >
> > It made me smile to just read it. Must remember a boggart next 
time I
> > come up against something or someone I don't like !!!
> >
> > Michelle
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> >
> > >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be 
posted to the
> HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort 
through
> the messages they want to read and those they don't.
> >
> > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, 
point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-
OTChatter to
> join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at y...
> >
> > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...)
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 13:46:22 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:46:22 -0000
Subject: The "first" chapter summary PoA 1-2
In-Reply-To: <9cojtj+pcen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crnfe+dlkp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18066

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith at f...> wrote:
> But, is it finally cleared that Petunia is in a complete lack of 
> powers? She was Lily's sister after all and there might be something 
> hidden inside her. What do you think?
> I heard JKR say that the Dursleys will enter the story more and more 
> and in that case I can see a hilarious turn on Petunias long-
> suppressed magic power as she is needed and forced to save Harry 
from 
> something! *LOL*

Please oh please don't let Petunia turn out to be a witch.  That would 
be just...oh lord.  The only thing worse would be for Dudley to be 
magic.  I just literally cannot picture it.

> No, he can't and he didn't even know about the fact that you *can* 
> apparate either, if I remember correctly. . 

Actually, he did know.  Ron told him about Apparating right before the 
stole the car in COS.  "They don't need the car, they can Apparate.  
You know, disappear from one place and reappear in another?" 
(Paraphrased, of course.)  

> Dunno about this either. I guess you could, or else you have to get 
> the owls yourself. The Weasleys probably didn't have more owl 
> available even though one might think that a family with SO many 
> individuals would at least have a couple of owls to spare


The Weasleys only have Errol, the family owl, and Percy's owl Hermes, 
who Percy won't lend out.  Ron probably could've hired a post owl, but 
remember that the winnings were only about 700 Galleons, IIRC.  Enough 
for a nice trip and a new wand for Ron, but not a whole lot else.

BTW, I've been having a big problem with the list lately.  I'm only 
getting a few posts, a day or so late.  I checked to make sure I'm 
still signed up on the right delivery option, and even unsubscribed 
and resubscribed to see if it would help, but I'm having to read 
everything off the site instead.  Is yahoogroups having a problem?


Andrea




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 14:13:12 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 14:13:12 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9crb4g+ob0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crp1o+c5m9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18067

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> The kitchens would be a close choice, but so would Harry's 
> dormitory or Dumbledore's office( I'm sure,there's more magic in it 
> then we have seen)I was also thinking of the cosy little dungeon 
> Nick's party had been in!
> Some more thoughts?

Well, if it was a room Harry visited in GOF, none of those would 
really apply but the kitchens.  He'd been to his dorm room, 
Dumbledore's office, and the dungeon all before.  

What about the prefects' bathroom?  That's the only room I can think 
of other than the kitchens that he visited for the first time in GOF. 
 What could be magical about it?

Personally, I want to see Harry stumble into the Chamberpot Chamber 
Dumbledore mentioned.  THat place is just too cute!


Andrea




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 15:06:18 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:06:18 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks & Sirius
In-Reply-To: <9cpkio+5e08@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crs5a+64ds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18068

Doreen wrote:

> While we are nitpicking about Crookshanks, has there been any 
> discussion as to why Crookshanks was so very friendly to Sirius 
Black 
> in the Shrieking Shack scenes? He first befriended him and helped 
him 
> when he was in animagi form, and then tried to protect him against 
> harm in the Shack. Any answers ... new or old?

He knows Sirius is a goodie, just as he knows Scabbers is a baddie.  
I wonder if Sirius told him the whole story, or whether Crookshanks 
is just relying on his feline intuition.

Amy Z, whose cat would curl up with Scabbers and scratch Sirius




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May  3 15:08:45 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:08:45 -0000
Subject: Room to visit (was Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <9crghu+1tfr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crs9t+747v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18069

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> > > The kitchens would be a close choice, but so would Harry's 
> > > dormitory or Dumbledore's office( I'm sure,there's more magic 
in 
> it 
> > > then we have seen)I was also thinking of the cosy little 
dungeon 
> > > Nick's party had been in!
> > > Some more thoughts?
> > > 
> > > Mecki
> > 
> > Yes, but JKR said that it was somewhere that Harry discovers for 
> the 
> > first time in GoF.  I can't really think of anywhere apart from 
the 
> > kitchens and the room where the champions first congregate near 
the 
> > Great Hall that was new to him.  Have I missed something?
> > 
> > Catherine
> 
> Yes!! The prefects' bathroom!!! What scope for fantasizing is in 
> this, huh? The extra magical properties of a bathroom! Too bad this 
> is an all-family list... <g>
> 
> Naama

Thanks Naama and Heidi- that one completely passed me by.  What other 
magical properties could the bathroom have?  Or the kitchen??  Keep 
it clean!

Catherine




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 15:18:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:18:01 -0000
Subject: Moon Charts & other calendar issues
In-Reply-To: <9cq6so+dj76@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9crsr9+qdn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18070

Kristin wrote:

> I was looking up lunar charts for a story I'm writing and I thought 
> I'd put this as a little FYI after reading your post. It shows all 
> the full moons During PoA(1993-94). Right off the bat the first 
full 
> moon was moved to accommodate the story. Can't have Lupin miss the 
> opening feast after all. 

JKR definitely doesn't pay attention to the actual days of the week 
in the actual years in which the books take place; e.g. Halloween 
falls on a Saturday in PoA AND GoF.  We all refer to the dates as if 
Harry was born in 1980, but so far I don't think JKR seems at all 
concerned with actually placing the books that precisely in time; it 
all comes from the single instance of Nick's Deathday cake.  
Otherwise, the books clearly take place in our time (PlayStations and 
all that) but are otherwise vague about the exact date.  

I also noticed on this reading of GoF that they go to Hogwarts on a 
Monday (the previous evening at the Burrow is referred to as a 
Sunday) but the first day of classes is a Monday.  Now why does this 
bug me so much when I don't care if she wants to put Halloween on a 
Saturday every single year?

Amy Z  




From Alakefullmoon at altavista.com  Thu May  3 16:36:51 2001
From: Alakefullmoon at altavista.com (Alake Fullmoon)
Date: 3 May 2001 09:36:51 -0700
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
Message-ID: <20010503163651.28025.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18071

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From Alakefullmoon at altavista.com  Thu May  3 16:44:07 2001
From: Alakefullmoon at altavista.com (Alake Fullmoon)
Date: 3 May 2001 09:44:07 -0700
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
Message-ID: <20010503164407.28598.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18072

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From vderark at bccs.org  Thu May  3 16:48:53 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:48:53 -0000
Subject: interesting Lexicon thing has been happening lately
Message-ID: <9cs25l+v0ds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18073

Hey, just thought I'd throw this past all of you and get reactions:

Lately, several times a day, the Lexicon has been visited by someone 
from Electronic Arts. As we all know, they're the ones doing the 
online and computer games which promise to allow users/players to 
more fully explore the universe of Harry Potter. I have to admit that 
my initial reaction to these plans was that it would seriously mess 
up the vision that we have from the books themselves -- they would 
frankly be inventing a LOT of things for themselves and I really 
don't like the idea of Electronic Arts creating "official" Harry 
Potter information. 

But they're using the Lexicon, it would seem. So does that mean that 
they're honestly trying to be true to the books? Or am I just saving 
them time and money on research and should I be billing them? And 
what are the chances that I get credit for any of this on the games?

Steve Vander Ark
unpaid research slave of Electronic Arts
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com~svderark/lexicon




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 16:57:35 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:57:35 -0000
Subject: interesting Lexicon thing has been happening lately
In-Reply-To: <9cs25l+v0ds@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cs2lv+vkf6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18074

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
I have to admit that 
> my initial reaction to these plans was that it would seriously mess 
> up the vision that we have from the books themselves -- they would 
> frankly be inventing a LOT of things for themselves and I really 
> don't like the idea of Electronic Arts creating "official" Harry 
> Potter information. 

Yeah. It would create insane continuity problems. This reminds me of 
the Japanese phenomenon of doing video games with insanely 
complicated based on anime, and creating their own continuity. [and 
then anime/comics books based on video games, etc.]

> 
> But they're using the Lexicon, it would seem. So does that mean 
that 
> they're honestly trying to be true to the books? Or am I just 
saving 
> them time and money on research and should I be billing them? And 
> what are the chances that I get credit for any of this on the games?
> 

I should hope they give you credit, or maybe a site plug in the 
credits of the video game. It seems like the only fair thing to do, 
even if you don't get money out of it. Perhaps you should email them 
and offer your site for reference. 

Charmian




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 17:19:45 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:19:45 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cpoa9+qkob@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cs3vh+n1k2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18075

I recall a long time ago, I think it was right after the second book, 
JKR said something about a land where giants ride dragons but she 
wouldn't get around to it until book 5. This lady does think ahead. 







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 17:41:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:41:02 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cr112+sfdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cs57e+7ees@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18076

I wrote:

> > > So as things stand right now, Harry is going to visit a whole 
new 
> > > magical world; a room in Hogwarts whose significance he's been 
> > unaware 
> > > of; and places we've heard of but haven't seen the inside of.  
> > That's 
> > > quite an itinerary.  I'm excited, but I hope we get some plain 
> old 
> > > Gryffindor common room time too!

Catherine wrote:

> When JKR said that if she went to Hogwarts, she would visit a room 
> which Harry had discovered in GoF, but hadn't discovered its 
magical 
> properties yet, I immediately thought of the kitchens

Oh, right, =this= is what I was thinking of.  The "yet" suggests 
Harry will discover more about them but that doesn't mean he'll do it 
in OoP.

I vote for the prefects' bathroom--though I'm afraid if Harry learns 
more about it it will probably be because he's a prefect, and I'd 
rather he didn't become one.  

And, to solve another problem, its magical properties include 
allowing boys and girls to use it at the same time without seeing 
each other.  ;-)

Dave, the "new magical world" thing comes from the second Scholastic 
interview, IIRC (which I frequently do not).

Amy Z 




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May  3 17:42:25 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:42:25 -0000
Subject: interesting Lexicon thing has been happening lately
In-Reply-To: <9cs25l+v0ds@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cs5a1+6eii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18077

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> Hey, just thought I'd throw this past all of you and get reactions:
> 
> Lately, several times a day, the Lexicon has been visited by 
someone 
> from Electronic Arts. As we all know, they're the ones doing the 
> online and computer games which promise to allow users/players to 
> more fully explore the universe of Harry Potter.
[snip]
> But they're using the Lexicon, it would seem. So does that mean 
that 
> they're honestly trying to be true to the books? Or am I just 
saving 
> them time and money on research and should I be billing them? 

You could TRY, billing them, of course.  However, I have always seen 
you, Steve, as sort of a house elf, destined to slave alway from dawn 
to dusk AND then from dusk to dawn, obsessively dedicated to your 
master who doesnt even realize you exist, much less pay you for your 
services.

> And 
> what are the chances that I get credit for any of this on the games?

About as much chance as Dobby has of getting a pretty new pair of 
socks for his birthday from Lucius Malfoy.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 17:53:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:53:38 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cs3vh+n1k2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cs5v2+7jhv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18078

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> I recall a long time ago, I think it was right after the second 
book, 
> JKR said something about a land where giants ride dragons but she 
> wouldn't get around to it until book 5. This lady does think ahead.

I've never heard this one before!  (Of course, I had no clue who HP 
was until after 3 and didn't read the books, much less any 
interviews, until after 4).  That does sound likely to pop up in 5, 
doesn't it?

She does think ahead--she plotted out all 7 books before writing 
PS/SS--though she also says she makes up a lot of things as she 
goes.  One day I hope we'll see the JKR Notebooks and know which ones 
were which (I personally want to know whether when she wrote Book 1 
Chapter 1, she knew who "young Sirius Black" was going to turn out to 
be, or whether it was just a throwaway name, as I reckoned at the 
time).  When something happens like the "huge plot hole" opening 
under her feet during the writing of 4, it might force the reworking 
of plots and characters not only in the book in question, but in 
future ones--e.g., will she need that discarded Weasley cousin later 
on?

Amy Z




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 18:11:43 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 18:11:43 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS & Interim Report II: Dale V. Fry Taste Test
Message-ID: <9cs70v+etl7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18079

While listening to PS for the first time from the Steven Fry 
recording, I heard the conversation between Snape and Quirrel in 
chapter 13, and I thought to myself that, while it certainly gives 
the impression (albeit a false one) that Snape was trying to obtain 
Quirrel's method of protection in order to steal the Philosopher's 
Stone, I could not construct an alternative innocent explanation for 
this conversation in light of what we all now know about Snape and  
about Voldemort.  Perhaps this was addressed in HPforGU a long time 
ago.  If so, could somebody give me a reference?  If not, does anyone 
have any theories to account for this conversation?

IMHO, Fry reads a much better Snape.  Dale's is too much a cartoon 
villain's voice.  I also prefer Fry's reading of Argus Filch.  I 
think that Dale's Dumbledore, however, is superior to that of Fry.  
He gets the essential ambiguity that Dumbledore intends to convey in 
many of his comments exactly right, with a properly deadpan delivery 
when necessary.

Haggridd




From driveslucy at aol.com  Thu May  3 18:12:40 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:12:40 EDT
Subject: Help!
Message-ID: <11.13aa89c5.2822f998@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18080

I am sorry for the off-topic post, but where are all you guys???  I find it 
hard to believe that 1200+ HP fanatics have nothing to say.  In the last 
three days I've only had 2 or three messages per day.  And the withdrawal is 
hell ... :-)

Luce



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May  3 18:18:29 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 18:18:29 -0000
Subject: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cs5v2+7jhv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cs7dl+6eet@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18081

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> > I recall a long time ago, I think it was right after the second 
> book, 
> > JKR said something about a land where giants ride dragons but she 
> > wouldn't get around to it until book 5. This lady does think 
ahead.
> 
> I've never heard this one before!  (Of course, I had no clue who HP 
> was until after 3 and didn't read the books, much less any 
> interviews, until after 4).  That does sound likely to pop up in 5, 
> doesn't it?
> 
> She does think ahead--she plotted out all 7 books before writing 
> PS/SS--though she also says she makes up a lot of things as she 
> goes.  One day I hope we'll see the JKR Notebooks and know which 
ones 
> were which (I personally want to know whether when she wrote Book 1 
> Chapter 1, she knew who "young Sirius Black" was going to turn out 
to 
> be, or whether it was just a throwaway name, as I reckoned at the 
> time).  When something happens like the "huge plot hole" opening 
> under her feet during the writing of 4, it might force the 
reworking 
> of plots and characters not only in the book in question, but in 
> future ones--e.g., will she need that discarded Weasley cousin 
later 
> on?
> 
> Amy Z

She did say recently, that she does have everyone's whole lives 
mapped out.  She actually used Sirius Black as an example, saying 
that she had detailed notes on the whole of his childhood - and liked 
to know these details whether she used them or not.  So I think it's 
fairly safe to say that she did know who "young Sirius Black" was 
going to turn out to be important in later books.  I would love to 
see her notes.  They must be incredibly intricate.  I wonder if they 
will ever be available once all books are published?

Catherine




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu May  3 18:14:51 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:14:51 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8EFB@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18082

Catherine wrote:
> 
> She did say recently, that she does have everyone's whole lives 
> mapped out.  She actually used Sirius Black as an example, saying 
> that she had detailed notes on the whole of his childhood - and liked 
> to know these details whether she used them or not.  So I think it's 
> fairly safe to say that she did know who "young Sirius Black" was 
> going to turn out to be important in later books.  I would love to 
> see her notes.  They must be incredibly intricate.  I wonder if they 
> will ever be available once all books are published?

Is it wrong that I think these notes would be just as interesting to read,
if not moreso, than the books themselves? Or maybe that's just because she
used Sirius as an example. I wonder if she's as gaga for him as some of the
listies here are.

<were you looking at me? why?!?!?>



From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May  3 18:21:56 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 18:21:56 -0000
Subject: Did Dobby apparate?
Message-ID: <9cs7k4+qttu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18083

In CS, The Rogue Bludger:

    "'Dobby must go!' breathed the elf, terrified. There was a
loud crack, and Harry's fist was suddenly clenched on thin air. He
slumped back into bed, his eyes on the dark doorway to the hospital
wing as the footsteps drew nearer."

Did Dobby apparate.... within the boundaries of Hogwarts, since they 
were in the infirmary? tsk tsk tsk ... I thought nobody could do that.

Doreen




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 18:37:29 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 18:37:29 -0000
Subject: hidden backstories
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8EFB@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9cs8h9+mi60@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18084

Heidi wrote:

> Is it wrong that I think these notes would be just as interesting 
to read,
> if not moreso, than the books themselves? 

I am very serious, no pun intended, that I want to read these things 
one day.  I fervently hope someone will publish them.  If HP remains 
a phenomenon, someone will (Christopher Tolkien has devoted his 
entire life to editing his father's scribbles so that readers can 
pore over countless versions of every chapter, unpublished 
appendices, etc.  Did you know Aragorn started out as a hobbit named 
Trotter?  Scary).  I love things like this.  My favorite art exhibits 
tend to be the ones that show lots of preliminary sketches, discarded 
ideas, etc.  The process of making the work is so fascinating to me.  
Plus--**more stories** about the characters!  Sirius's childhood?!  
I'm not even one of the Siriusgaga and the idea makes me drool.  

>Or maybe that's just because she
> used Sirius as an example. I wonder if she's as gaga for him as 
some of the
> listies here are.

Hey, she's the one who answered yes without hesitation to "Is Sirius 
meant to be dead sexy?"  (Someone should ask her that about Snape.)

Amy Z




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu May  3 18:52:28 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 18:52:28 -0000
Subject: Did Dobby apparate?
In-Reply-To: <9cs7k4+qttu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cs9dc+joc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18085

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> In CS, The Rogue Bludger:
> 
>     "'Dobby must go!' breathed the elf, terrified. There was a
> loud crack, and Harry's fist was suddenly clenched on thin air. He
> slumped back into bed, his eyes on the dark doorway to the hospital
> wing as the footsteps drew nearer."
> 
> Did Dobby apparate.... within the boundaries of Hogwarts, since 
they 
> were in the infirmary? tsk tsk tsk ... I thought nobody could do 
that.
> 
> Doreen

No, he didn't apparate, in my opinion. He used House-Elf Magic, which 
is similar in effect but different in execution. Either way, he has 
shown that he can easily overcome the magical charms placed on 
objects, even powerful ones (e.g. the Bludger, Owl post, the magical 
entrance to Platform Nine and Three-Quarters).

In my opinion, House-Elf Magic is complete innate to the creatures 
themselves and far more powerful because of it. You might liken it to 
the fact that humans can fly with the proper equipment but can't 
match the aerial agility of a dragonfly or a bee or a hummingbird or 
even a chimney swift, all of which fly as an inherent part of who 
they are. Humans fly as well, but their inherent power is to built 
the equipment which allows them to fly, not the flying itself. 
Similar effect, different execution.

I'm not sure I explained that perfectly, but do you get my drift?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a very nice house-elf page
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May  3 18:54:25 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:54:25 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9cs5v2+7jhv@eGroups.com>
References: <9cs3vh+n1k2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503115147.02fa0e30@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18086

At 05:53 PM 5/3/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Chapter 1, she knew who "young Sirius Black" was going to turn out to
>be, or whether it was just a throwaway name, as I reckoned at the
>time).

I'm still hoping that Daedalus Diggle is not a throwaway name but
will emerge as a character in the future.  (Maybe teaching Harry
advanced broom maneuvers.)



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May  3 19:12:28 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:12:28 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hidden backstories
In-Reply-To: <9cs8h9+mi60@eGroups.com>
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8EFB@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503120043.00ce33b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18087

At 06:37 PM 5/3/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>I am very serious, no pun intended, that I want to read these things
>one day.  I fervently hope someone will publish them.

I'm hoping maybe after the series is all written, she'll pen a
book on tips for writers, with emphasis on organization,
continuity, and fleshing out characters, because I can see right
off the bat that a "timeline" for all one's characetrs' lives is
a good idea... Much better than the "Personal Profiles"
in one book I have which I have been trying to fill out
for the charcters in my Sci-Fi Novel.  ( All my main
characters are cybernetic, so a lot of the questions, like
"Birthday" and "Names of parents" don't apply, whereas
pertinent questions like "Hard drive size" and "Number
of open AGP slots" are not there. :) )

>  Hey, she's the one who answered yes without hesitation to "Is Sirius
>meant to be dead sexy?"

The question I have is, why wasn't there an uproar from the
Witch community when *Sirius* was imprisoned the way
there was for Bagman?   (Or *was* there?)



                                                 -- Dave




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May  3 19:12:29 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 19:12:29 -0000
Subject: Did Dobby apparate?
In-Reply-To: <9cs9dc+joc7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9csait+lqjb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18088

> Steve wrote:
> No, he didn't apparate, in my opinion. He used House-Elf Magic, 
which is similar in effect but different in execution. 
<snip excellent explanation>

Doreen wrote:
Perhaps the stipulation is that you can not apparate "out of or into 
Hogwarts" but it is ok to apparate "within" Hogwarts from area to 
area, although we do not see anyone else doing this, or do we?



> I'm not sure I explained that perfectly, but do you get my drift?
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> which has a very nice house-elf page
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon

You explained it beautifully, as usual.
Doreen




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May  3 19:14:32 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:14:32 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Moon Charts & other calendar issues
In-Reply-To: <9crsr9+qdn7@eGroups.com>
References: <9cq6so+dj76@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503121319.00c0bee0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18089

At 03:18 PM 5/3/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Otherwise, the books clearly take place in our time (PlayStations and
>all that) but are otherwise vague about the exact date.

That's why I've never bought the "Nick's Deathday" argument.
I just assume each book takes place in the school year prior
to the book's publication.



                                                 -- Dave




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu May  3 19:20:46 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 19:20:46 -0000
Subject: Prof.McGonagall and Voldemort + New Places in OoP
Message-ID: <9csb2e+nq38@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18090

Hi All,
I just reread GoF again ( I don't know how often I have before, 
lot's<g>) and came across something curious.- it must have been 
discussed before, but not since I joined the group, so I'll sned it 
anyway:
When Frank was arrested, because he was accused of the riddle's 
murder, he said he had seen a "teenage boy" nobody else had seen.
A teenage boy is, IMO, any way between 14( below I'd call them kids) 
and let's say 17 years old ( afterwards I'd call them young adults ).
In an interview JKR said Prof.McGonagall is 65 in GoF, which means she 
too must have been around 15 when the Riddles are murdered! They must 
have been in school together! Knowing JKR's talent for little hints 
with big effects probably even in the same year. If Slytherins and 
Griffindors ( I know it's not confirmed but Mc.Gonagall *is* a 
Griffindor!!)had as much lessons together as they do now, she might 
know young-Voldie pretty well!
Am I making any sense?

As to the new rooms, what about snape's office? Or Hagrid's hut? There 
has never been any magic (except for the creatures) in there, but who 
knows?




From particle at urbanet.ch  Thu May  3 19:24:26 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 21:24:26 +0200
Subject: JKR Notebooks/Sirius Black (Was : Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in  Order of the Phoenix)
References: <9cs7dl+6eet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF1B06A.ACC8A468@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 18091

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> She did say recently, that she does have everyone's whole lives
> mapped out.  She actually used Sirius Black as an example, saying
> that she had detailed notes on the whole of his childhood - and liked
> to know these details whether she used them or not.  So I think it's
> fairly safe to say that she did know who "young Sirius Black" was
> going to turn out to be important in later books.  I would love to
> see her notes.  They must be incredibly intricate.  I wonder if they
> will ever be available once all books are published?

Where did she say this? Would you by any chance have a link?

I hope that at the very least we get a 'The World of Harry Potter' type
guidebook, with lots of back-history and details that we can't get in
the books - like a larger, wider-based FB/QTA, I guess. With tidbits
about what the Founders were *really* like, back-stories of
peripheral/mysterious characters, etc. Of course, other Potterverse
novels would be even better. I can't decide - would I rather read about
the Founders, MWPP, or Young Dumbledore in novel form? All three ideas
intruigue me endlessly.

- Firebolt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbarhug at earthlink.net  Thu May  3 19:18:53 2001
From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:18:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix
References: <9cr112+sfdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF1AF1D.846FB1CE@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18092



catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> When JKR said that if she went to Hogwarts, she would visit a room
> which Harry had discovered in GoF, but hadn't discovered its magical
> properties yet, I immediately thought of the kitchens.  Are there any
> other rooms of significance that could qualify here?
>

     I think that was a very telling scene in GoF when Dumbledore was
talking with Karakoff about not presuming to know all the secrets of
Hogwarts and then tells about the Chamber of Potties.  Magical room that
appears and disappears.  Okay, seems to fit the bill of JKR's
description.  Maybe the contents aren't always the same, maybe depending
on when and where you find the opening, you end up in different places,
kind of like Will's windows in The Subtle Knife.

drpam




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Thu May  3 19:35:27 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 19:35:27 -0000
Subject: underage magic (?)
Message-ID: <9csbtv+5ikg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18093

When voldey murdered his father he was a "teenage" boy, does that 
mean he was underage??? I don't know if this subject has already been 
thrashed out, I'll go check...


claire :)




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 20:36:42 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 20:36:42 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS & Interim Report II: Dale V. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <9cs70v+etl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9csfgq+rhg1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18094

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> While listening to PS for the first time from the Steven Fry 
> recording, I heard the conversation between Snape and Quirrel in 
> chapter 13, and I thought to myself that, while it certainly gives 
> the impression (albeit a false one) that Snape was trying to obtain 
> Quirrel's method of protection in order to steal the Philosopher's 
> Stone, I could not construct an alternative innocent explanation for 
> this conversation in light of what we all now know about Snape and  
> about Voldemort.  Perhaps this was addressed in HPforGU a long time 
> ago.  If so, could somebody give me a reference?  If not, does 
anyone 
> have any theories to account for this conversation?

This is actually one of my favorite scenes to reread with the 
knowledge of the truth.  I don't have my book handy, so this is a 
little rough, but here goes.

Snape starts out with, "Have you figured out how to get past Hagrid's 
pet yet?"  Harry takes it to mean that Quirrell is supposed to find 
out for Snape, when in fact Quirrell needs to know for himself and 
Snape knows that's an obstacle against him.

Then the words are drowned out and Harry only hears, "...your little 
bit of hocus-pocus."  Harry thinks that Snape wants to know how 
Quirrell was protecting the stone so Snape can defeat it, but Snape is 
actually referring to the spell Quirrell was putting on Harry's 
broomstick during the Quiddich match.

Finally, Snape asks Quirrell to decide who's side he's on.  Again, 
Harry thinks Snape is threatening him to give him information, but 
Snape is actually telling Quirrel *not* to help Voldemort.

I love rereading scenes like this to see how wonderfully JKR managed 
to deceive us.  It's like watching "Sixth Sense". :)


Andrea




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 20:39:14 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 20:39:14 -0000
Subject: underage magic (?)
In-Reply-To: <9csbtv+5ikg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9csfli+jpnt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18095

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> When voldey murdered his father he was a "teenage" boy, does that 
> mean he was underage??? I don't know if this subject has already 
been 
> thrashed out, I'll go check...

It's hard to say.  We just don't have an exact enough date either for 
the murders or for Voldemort's birth.  He was a fifth-year student 
fifty years before CS, which puts his birth at around 1927, and the 
murders took place fifty years before GF, which puts them around 
1944.  That would make him 17 the year he killed his family--probably 
the summer after his 6th or 7th year.  But both of those "fifty 
years" are likely to be approximate--no one ever says "The Chamber of 
Secrets was opened exactly 50 years ago" or "Exactly 50 years ago, 
Frank Bryce was accused of murder." 

Why do you ask?  Wondering whether he'd received his Avada Kedavra 
license yet?

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 20:43:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 20:43:30 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9csfgq+rhg1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9csfti+7hi2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18096

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Andrea" <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> 
> This is actually one of my favorite scenes to reread with the 
> knowledge of the truth.  I don't have my book handy, so this is a 
> little rough, but here goes.
> 
> Snape starts out with, "Have you figured out how to get past 
Hagrid's 
> pet yet?"  Harry takes it to mean that Quirrell is supposed to find 
> out for Snape, when in fact Quirrell needs to know for himself and 
> Snape knows that's an obstacle against him.
> 
> Then the words are drowned out and Harry only hears, "...your 
little 
> bit of hocus-pocus."  Harry thinks that Snape wants to know how 
> Quirrell was protecting the stone so Snape can defeat it, but Snape 
is 
> actually referring to the spell Quirrell was putting on Harry's 
> broomstick during the Quiddich match.
> 
> Finally, Snape asks Quirrell to decide who's side he's on.  Again, 
> Harry thinks Snape is threatening him to give him information, but 
> Snape is actually telling Quirrel *not* to help Voldemort.

Please say more, Andrea, because I also have a hard time 
understanding this scene.  I get what Harry thinks and what Snape 
thinks (possibly--it's not at all clear to me whether he suspects 
that V comes into it somehow, or whether he just thinks Q is trying 
to get the Stone for some more mundane reason; I lean toward the 
latter).  What I don't get is what Quirrell thinks Snape thinks.  
This is key now that we all want to know how much Voldemort knows or 
suspects of Snape's true loyalties.  Can Snape plausibly claim to be 
loyal to Voldemort, or has he given himself away with his activities 
in PS/SS?

Amy Z




From ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk  Thu May  3 20:45:34 2001
From: ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?jill=20adrain?=)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:45:34 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange places you find HP mentioned
In-Reply-To: <004a01c0d26b$11cdaf80$3942063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <20010503204534.16958.qmail@web11504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18097


don't know if anyone has mentioned this re. strange
places hp is mentioned, but he's mentioned in dawsons
creek. drew greets joey (potter) with 'hello harry
potter'
i did get overly excited by this!
jill

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 21:09:31 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 21:09:31 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9csfti+7hi2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9csheb+jhmo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18098

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Please say more, Andrea, because I also have a hard time 
> understanding this scene.  I get what Harry thinks and what Snape 
> thinks (possibly--it's not at all clear to me whether he suspects 
> that V comes into it somehow, or whether he just thinks Q is trying 
> to get the Stone for some more mundane reason; I lean toward the 
> latter).  What I don't get is what Quirrell thinks Snape thinks.  
> This is key now that we all want to know how much Voldemort knows or 
> suspects of Snape's true loyalties.  Can Snape plausibly claim to be 
> loyal to Voldemort, or has he given himself away with his activities 
> in PS/SS?

Hmm...well, I'm going to have to check my book once I get home to be a 
little clearer about this scene.  I think that you could argue for 
either possibility - either that Quirrell/Voldie knew Snape knew who 
they were, or that they just thought Snape thought it was Quirrell 
acting for selfish reasons.  Snape doesn't really make it clear, other 
than the comment about choosing sides.  That could be argued for 
strongly suggesting that Snape knew it was Voldie calling the shots.  
However, I think that it's equally plausible Snape was referring just 
to supporting Dumbledore, who wanted the Stone to stay hidden, or 
going against him.  His support of Dumbledore at this stage could be 
explained away as him staying "loyal" just so he could remain at 
Dumbledore's side, unsuspected, as the spy.  He could also say that he 
was trying to keep the Stone safe so that *Snape* could use it to help 
Voldie later, and he thought Quirrell just wanted it for himself.



Andrea




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 21:38:05 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 21:38:05 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9csheb+jhmo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9csj3t+t0pt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18099

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Andrea" <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Please say more, Andrea, because I also have a hard time 
> > understanding this scene.  I get what Harry thinks and what Snape 
> > thinks (possibly--it's not at all clear to me whether he suspects 
> > that V comes into it somehow, or whether he just thinks Q is 
trying 
> > to get the Stone for some more mundane reason; I lean toward the 
> > latter).  What I don't get is what Quirrell thinks Snape thinks.  
> > This is key now that we all want to know how much Voldemort knows 
or 
> > suspects of Snape's true loyalties.  Can Snape plausibly claim to 
be 
> > loyal to Voldemort, or has he given himself away with his 
activities 
> > in PS/SS?
> 
> Hmm...well, I'm going to have to check my book once I get home to 
be a 
> little clearer about this scene.  I think that you could argue for 
> either possibility - either that Quirrell/Voldie knew Snape knew 
who 
> they were, or that they just thought Snape thought it was Quirrell 
> acting for selfish reasons.  Snape doesn't really make it clear, 
other 
> than the comment about choosing sides.  That could be argued for 
> strongly suggesting that Snape knew it was Voldie calling the 
shots.  
> However, I think that it's equally plausible Snape was referring 
just 
> to supporting Dumbledore, who wanted the Stone to stay hidden, or 
> going against him.  His support of Dumbledore at this stage could 
be 
> explained away as him staying "loyal" just so he could remain at 
> Dumbledore's side, unsuspected, as the spy.  He could also say that 
he 
> was trying to keep the Stone safe so that *Snape* could use it to 
help 
> Voldie later, and he thought Quirrell just wanted it for himself.
> 
> 
> 
> Andrea

Thank you so much!  You have made it seem so obvious in retrospect, 
but if it weren't for your insight I would not have seen it.  The 
question of what Voldemort now knows about Snape because of this 
conversation is now critical, as was brought out by the long back-and-
forth discussion recently about Snape's mission.  Please review the 
text and bless us with further revelations!

Thanks again, 
Haggridd  




From hallieu at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 22:13:11 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 22:13:11 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Introducing the HP4GU Contest
Message-ID: <F254C8wSA1XvpFVjCRG00000003@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18100

Maybe I should explain - I was leaving the exam for the weekend when I'd be 
able to answer it.  I do intend to do it - but I have a lot of school work 
right now, and much as I hate to admit it, school is more important than HP.
Hallie


>From: meckelburg at foni.net
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Introducing the HP4GU Contest
>Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 06:51:52 -0000
>
>Hi,
>It'll be fun to have a contest every week!
>however, I am still waiting for your answers to the last one- the
>DADA-Ecam. For those, who missed it, you find it Messages
>
>#17862 + #17863
>
>Hey, all you HP- obsessed! Capable of nitpicking on half-senteces( I
>know it's fun<g> but not even able to answer a few simple questions
>about DADA- Lessons?(hey, don't take this seriously!)I thought you'd
>do better! 5 answers with more than 1200 obsessed members is close to
>a catastrophe (spelling?).
>Or was the test so boring, you decided to ignore it? Don't! If you
>didn't like it, please post why, off-list! I have to know what went
>wrong, to make it better next time
>Sorry if this is OT
>Mecki
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Neville's aim was so poor that he kept accidentally sending much
>heavier things flying across the room - Professor Flittwick for
>instance.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
>
> > Welcome to The HP4GU Sort-of-Weekly Contest, known also by its full
> > name:  The Invitational, Magical, Exciting, Weekly, All-Smarty's
> > Tournament Extraordinaire!  In order to make HP4GU a more fun and
> > exciting home, especially for those of us who have absolutely no
> > lives outside of it, I have (with the Moderators' permission)
>decided
> > to inflict upon you a weekly, non-competitive yet hopefully amusing,
> > contest.
> >
> > This contest will consist of a variety of different activities which
> > I think you will all enjoy.  Some of the contests will be written or
> > designed by yours truly, but I am hoping that the rest of you will
> > contribute puzzles or contest ideas as well.  All contest ideas
> > should be sent to the contest email address, which is
> > HP4GUCon at a...  Remember, the contest is non-competitive, so there
> > are no winners or losers (well, no winners anyway).
> >
> > There will be a new contest every week, I hope, or almost every
>week,
> > anyway.  There will be 3 types of contests: puzzles, creative
> > contests, and speculative contests.  Puzzles consist of crosswords
> > and other word puzzles, anagrams, trivia questions, etc., so if
> > you've written one of these please send it to me!  Creative contests
> > will consist of things like poetry-writing (more fun than you think,
> > really!).  Speculative contests will consist of asking people to
> > theorize about an unknown aspect of the Harry Potter universe, such
> > as the recent thread on "What happens to the Hogwarts Express the
> > rest of the year?"
> >
> > This contest is for fun only.  There are no winners, no prizes, no
> > trophies, no glory, but also no losers, no shame, and no hurt
> > feelings.  Friends don't need to compete with one another, right?
> > Right!  And don't forget to send those lists of trivia questions,
> > word search puzzles, or other brilliant ideas to me at
> > HP4GUCon at a...
> >
> > The Rules are posted below, and will be repeated each week when a
>new
> > contest is posted.  I will also file the rules in our files section,
> > along with a contest archives (space permitting).  The first contest
> > will be posted this Friday.
> >
> > The Rules
> > 1.  Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email
> > address, which is HP4GUCon at a...  RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED
> > TO THE LIST.  Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers,
>to
> > the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest,
> > sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to
>eat
> > bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST.
> >
> > 2.  Contests will be posted on Fridays.  Responses should be sent by
> > email to HP4GUCon at a... by midnight Tuesday night.  For puzzle
> > contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who
> > submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted on
> > Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest).  For creative and speculative
> > contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a
> > random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular
> > contest.
> >
> > 3. ANSWERS SHOULD NOT BE POSTED TO THE LIST.  I know this is also
> > rule # 1, but I can not stress it enough.
> >
> >  Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
> >
> > P.S.  There is a little tiny contest imbedded in this post.  Did you
> > find it?  If so, let me know by sending email to HP4GUCon at a... and
> > NOT BY POSTING IT TO THE LIST.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May  3 22:30:50 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:30:50 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Azkaban/ Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9crbbd+5mur@eGroups.com>
References: <9cq93f+j9en@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503145857.00dcb960@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18101

At 10:19 AM 5/3/01 +0000, mcandrew at bigpond.com wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
>Actually, I've been wondering for a while if Harry might end up being
>imprisoned for at least a short stretch in Azkaban, maybe in Book
>Five.

Maybe this is how he'll leave the Dursleys in the next book...
Imagine Petunia or Dudley's reaction if they opened the
front door and saw a dementor there!  (It would be
funny if we didn't anticipate great horrors for Harry
as well!)

If Harry got sent to Azkaban for killing Cedric, that would
make *two* people framed for murders actually commited
by Wormtail!

What would happen to Harry?  Might he discover that
there are *lots* of innocent people locked away in
there?

How might he be rescued?  Perhaps Padfoot?

>On the other hand, Fudge has already hinted in his argument with
>Dumbledore that he believes Harry is becoming mentally unhinged.
>Maybe he will be found not guilty of murder on grounds of insanity,
>and be sentenced to do time in St Mungo's instead.

Perhaps this is more likely...



                                                 -- Dave




From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May  3 22:53:05 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 22:53:05 -0000
Subject: Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class
Message-ID: <9csngh+ho7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18102

Okay, I know we often preface postings with "I hope this hasn't been 
discussed a gazillion times before," but... here goes anyway!

I was just listening to my audio version of GoF (Dale), and I am up to  
the part where Mad-Eye teaches the Imperius Curse to Harry and his 
Gryffindor housemates.  If Mad-Eye is not really Mad-Eye, but Death 
Eater Barty Crouch, Jr, then why would he want anyone from Gryffindor 
to be able to throw off the curse?  Why did he teach it to them?

That scene has been bothering me since I finished reading GoF for the 
first time.  Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

--jenny from ravenclaw****************************************




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May  3 23:25:58 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 23:25:58 -0000
Subject: Azkaban/ Order of the Phoenix - calendar
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503145857.00dcb960@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cspe6+hhf5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18103

Dave wrote:

> If Harry got sent to Azkaban for killing Cedric, that would
> make *two* people framed for murders actually commited
> by Wormtail!

Good point!
 
> How might he be rescued?  Perhaps Padfoot?

Perhaps by Voldemort calling away the Dementors and letting all the 
Death Eaters go free.  Along with them pour ordinary criminals and 
Unjustly Imprisoned Harry.  Yet another infuriating irony for poor 
ol' V if he frees Harry unwittingly.

Seriously, do you really think Fudge would get Harry sent to 
Azkaban?  Without a trial?  St. Mungo's is nearly as horrible a 
thought, but more likely.  Dumbledore wouldn't allow either one, 
natch, but Fudge could come get Harry at Privet Drive this summer and 
cause a lot of havoc before anyone else knew what was going on.  Mmm, 
the possibilities!

Re: calendar, I didn't mean to say I don't think the usual chronology 
is correct:  Harry born 1980, he starts at Hogwarts 1991, GoF ends 
1995, etc.  That is the way I think of it, not Dave's thought that 
GoF ends in 2000, because after all, when we finally get OoP, only a 
summer (or a couple of weeks, more likely) will have elapsed for 
Harry, while we'll have waited nigh on two years (-pant- agua! 
agua!).  All I meant was that JKR steers clear of specific dates most 
of the time, so that while her personal wall chart may say "Summer 
1995:  Harry has just won the Triwizard Tournament," she actually may 
never give any indication that that is the year.  And as time goes 
on, this may prove a wiser and wiser thing, because we are going to 
get more and more out of whack with Harry, until book 7 is published 
in, say, 2006 and takes place almost a decade earlier.  To keep the 
feeling that the books are contemporary with us, she may never give 
an anchor like Nick's cake again.  (That's okay--we only need one!)

And I, for one, will be very happy not to hear about the Marauders' 
having been at Woodstock (or the Isle of Wight, as it may be).

Amy Z
wishing she'd wake up and find out that the publication date is May 
200*1*




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Thu May  3 23:58:34 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 23:58:34 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS & Interim Report II: Dale V. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <9csfgq+rhg1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9csrba+uo0b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18104

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Andrea" <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:

> 
> Snape starts out with, "Have you figured out how to get past 
Hagrid's 
> pet yet?"  Harry takes it to mean that Quirrell is supposed to find 
> out for Snape, when in fact Quirrell needs to know for himself and 
> Snape knows that's an obstacle against him.

Isn't Snape asking Quirrell if he has found out yet?  Snape wants the 
info. 
> 
> Then the words are drowned out and Harry only hears, "...your 
little 
> bit of hocus-pocus."  Harry thinks that Snape wants to know how 
> Quirrell was protecting the stone so Snape can defeat it, but Snape 
is 
> actually referring to the spell Quirrell was putting on Harry's 
> broomstick during the Quiddich match.


Why would Snape need to know about the spell Quirrell was putting on 
Harry's broomstick?  I think Snape is wanting to know what Quirrell 
is doing to protect the stone.  Snape wants to know how to get past 
Quirrell's beast and he wants to know what Quirrell has done.

> 
> Finally, Snape asks Quirrell to decide who's side he's on.  Again, 
> Harry thinks Snape is threatening him to give him information, but 
> Snape is actually telling Quirrel *not* to help Voldemort.

I just don't get the impression that it appears as if Snape is giving 
Quirrell information.  It appears that Snape is threatening Q. in 
order to *get* information.  


'So we were right, it is the Philosopher's Stone, and Snape's trying 
to force Quirrell to help him get it.  He asked if he knew how to get 
past Fluffy - and he said something about Quirrell's hocus-pocus'-I 
reckon there are other things guarding the stone apart from Fluffy, 
loads of enchantments, probably, and Quirrell would have done some 
anti-Dark Arts spell which Snape needs to break through-'

'So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to 
Snape?' said Hermione in alarm.

They believe Snape is threating Quirrell so *S* can get the stone.

I do believe Snape is questioning where Quirrell's loyalty lies in 
regards to Dumbledore.    

I also can't believe that Snape knows Voldy is there, listening to 
their little conversation.

There are two parts to this little scene which interests me just as 
much as what was just brought up.  One is where Snape tells 
Quirrell, 'Students aren't supposed to know about the Philosopher's 
Stone, after all.'  How does Snape know HH & R know about the stone?

The other part is the one where Snape tells Quirrell he doesn't want 
him (Snape) as his enemy.  Quirrell says he doesn't know what he 
means and Snape says, 'You know perfectly well.'  Ah.....Snape is 
just so....well, good!

Koinonia






From starling823 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 00:24:09 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:24:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's up?
References: <9cp4q6+r3mr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c0d430$a60a8580$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18105

I've been having the same problems -- i use outlook and i thought it was a problem with that at first, but i had a friend check, and everything is configured -- but then posts started magically reappearing.  and yes, i've a yahoo addy.
moderators or anyone in the know have any idea what was going on?

Abbie, curious
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, 02 May, 2001 10:15 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's up?


  For some reason, I have not received any posts in the past 24 hours.  
  Has anyone else had this problem, especially those of you who have 
  yahoo addy's?

  Sorry for the OT post.


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
       
       

  _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

  From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.

  Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

  (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 00:50:12 2001
From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 00:50:12 -0000
Subject: Wands and their cores
Message-ID: <9csuc4+hlq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18106

If I'm a bit off, forgive me -- I've been reading HP since the end of 
February.

I've seen wands with 3 types of cores -- unicorn hair, phoenix 
feather and dragon heartstring. Has anything been written about what 
magical properties each of these carry? 

Likewise, can someone direct me to a website that details the 
properites of particular woods that such wands might be made from? 
For example, the benefits and disadvantages of rosewood.

Thanks,
Belle




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri May  4 01:15:14 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 01:15:14 
Subject: HP-Positive Christianity (was Magic and the Bible)
Message-ID: <F711ojMcukgaebG6Ndr00001807@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18107

Hello list:

I was going to post this to HP4GU Announcements, but thought it'd be just as 
well to add it to the main list in light of the recent HP/Bible/Magic 
discussions.

Today at Borders I got my hands on the book I've been waiting for ever since 
I first began reading Harry Potter, and I am excited about it.  This book, 
"What's A Christian To Do With Harry Potter", is the first tome by a notable 
evangelical writer that is "HP-positive".

The author, Connie Neal, is well-respected amongst the Religious Right... 
she's affiliated with highly respected Christian organizations and media 
outlets like Today's Christian Woman, Promise Keepers, New Life Clinics, the 
700 Club, and (one of my *favorites*) Women of Faith.  The book isn't 
published by a mom-and-pop press, either... it's published by WaterBrook 
Press, the Christian religious/inspirational division of Random House.

Neal has not only read all four books of canon, she also engages all of the 
current factors of the huge controversy amongst Christians quite 
comprehensively.  Her book is so positive about the series that on the back 
cover, there is a disclaimer:  "This book has not been prepared, approved, 
or licensed by any person or entity that prepared, created, published, or 
produced the Harry Potter books or related entities."  ;-)

To pique your interest, here's the table of contents.  Please keep in mind 
Neal's audience... the topics address concerns specific to Christianity in 
general and the most conservative groups in particular.

Intro--Harry Potter is Here, and He's Not Going Away!
       (Preparing for the Cultural and Spiritual Impact)
Chapter One--Mad About Harry
       (Controversy in the Christian Community)
Chapter Two--Harry Potter 101
       (What Are the Stories All About, Anyway?)
Chapter Three--Classic Fantasy or Blatant Witchcraft?
       (Why Christians Categorize These Books As We Do)
Chapter Four--Why Kids (and Kids at Heart) Love Harry
       (How These Stories Meet Specific Heartfelt Needs)
Chapter Five--What *Would* Jesus Do With Harry Potter?
       (Decide For Yourself)
Chapter Six--Beware the Dangers of the Debate
       (Subtle Snares All Christians Need to Avoid)
Chapter Seven--Protecting Kids from Real-World Occult
       (Vital Information and Instruction Kids Need to Stay Safe)
Chapter Eight--Be *in* the World but not *of* the World
       (Engaging in Our Culture Without Disobeying God)
Chapter Nine--Harry Potter and the Judeo-Christian Ethic
       (Do Rowling's Books Really Promote Secularism and Worldly Values?)
Chapter Ten--Use Harry Potter to Help Kids Grow in Goodness
       (An Important Scriptural Pattern of Moral Development)
Chapter Eleven--Using Harry Potter to Preach the Gospel
       (Turning Stories Into Evangelistic Tools)

Here's the Amazon.com link (you might want to cut and paste):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1578564719/qid%3D988938314/107-8305377-5406917
(Note:  It's $2 less at Amazon than I paid at Borders this evening!  But the 
Amazon release date isn't until May 15th, 2001, so...)

Highly recommended for anyone who wants to read/research further into the 
ongoing Harry Potter Christian debate.  Also a must read for those of us who 
are practicing Christians and avid Harry Potter fans... if you're an 
evangelical, I'm sure you've had to defend your enjoyment of the books at 
least once by now.  ;-)  I enjoyed it very much, and plan to recommend it to 
my friends of the faith who are refusing to read the series on religious 
grounds.

As one professor of Christian philosophy wrote in the advance praise 
section, "(This)is an extremely helpful book for all of the folks these days 
who are wondering whether it's okay to love Jesus and like Harry Potter, 
too.  Connie Neal offers much wisdom on an important subject."

Agreed.  I've always said that Lewis and Tolkien, if alive today, would have 
made Rowling an honorary Inkling.  ;-)

Best,

Ebony (who just finished re-reading C. S. Lewis' *The Four Loves*, and wants 
to someday write a series of essays on Lewis' definitions of Affection, 
Friendship, Eros (Romance), and Charity as applied to the Harry Potter 
books...)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"The night whose sable breast relieves the stark,
White stars is no less lovely being dark,
And there are buds that cannot bloom at all
In light, but crumble, piteous, and fall;
So in the dark we hide the heart that bleeds,
And wait, and tend our agonizing seeds."

--Countee Cullen, Harlem Renaissance poet (c. 1927)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri May  4 01:34:29 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 01:34:29 -0000
Subject: Wands and their cores
In-Reply-To: <9csuc4+hlq7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ct0v5+8l0c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18108

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:

> Likewise, can someone direct me to a website that details the 
> properites of particular woods that such wands might be made from? 
> For example, the benefits and disadvantages of rosewood.

You'll find this on the website "What's In A Name" which is at

http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/

This is one of the best Harry Potter reference sites around. I highly 
recommend it.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Fri May  4 03:01:22 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 03:01:22 -0000
Subject: Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class
In-Reply-To: <9csngh+ho7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ct622+mpbr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18109

jenny from ravenclaw wrote, " If Mad-Eye is not really Mad-Eye, but 
Death 
> Eater Barty Crouch, Jr, then why would he want anyone from 
Gryffindor 
> to be able to throw off the [imperious] curse?" 

This is my favorite puzzlement from GoF, and the answer I have always 
seen is, he did it to appear to be like Crouch. But unless Dumbledore 
was specifically saying "teach this on this day," that just doesn't 
hold water. Imperious would be the No. 1 thing you would *avoid* 
teaching if you were truly Voldemort's servant. 

The other theory is Crouch was testing Harry's strength to report 
back to Voldemort; if so, as we see later, the memo never got there, 
because V is both surprised and humiliated in the moments Harry is 
able to resist him. 

My own personal belief is that JKR wrote Mad-Eye as a likable, good-
guy character, hit her much-publicized plot difficulties, and re-
wrote him to be evil Crouch. People have disputed this theory for 
many reasons (the much-rumoured Icicle character that was supposedly 
written out of the book) but to me the whole Mad-Eye/Crouch 
revelation is so much less well set up than anything else she has 
written....in my mind, it just sticks out like a sore thumb as a plot 
fix. 

~Rosmerta




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 03:18:29 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 03:18:29 -0000
Subject: HP-Positive Christianity (was Magic and the Bible)
In-Reply-To: <F711ojMcukgaebG6Ndr00001807@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ct726+51f6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18110

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:

> As one professor of Christian philosophy wrote in the advance 
praise 
> section, "(This)is an extremely helpful book for all of the folks 
these days 
> who are wondering whether it's okay to love Jesus and like Harry 
Potter, 
> too.
  

Of course it's okay to love them both.  I do :)

Koinonia




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Fri May  4 03:24:52 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 03:24:52 -0000
Subject: Lupin's moon time/slash/was Re: Moon Charts
In-Reply-To: <9cq6so+dj76@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ct7e4+emc7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18111


> Amy Z wrote: I was just the other day counting between Halloween 
and Christmas to try to make the full moons match up.  It bugs me 
that they don't... 

I have the perfect solution to these seeming discrepancies: Lupin's 
secretly a WOMAN! Anyone who's bit her nails down to the quick 
counting the days between one moon and the next will know what we're 
talking about here: a full moon is an entirely relative concept when 
you're, say, trying to plan a family, trying to avoid one, or trying 
to wear a white linen dress for your cousin's wedding. 

~Rosmerta, who's trying to imagine all the the slash possibilities 
this revelation might inspire






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri May  4 03:56:44 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 04:56:44 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Recent Yahoo glitch
Message-ID: <00c501c0d44e$5c014aa0$cd3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 18112

As a few people have been asking on the main list about the recent technical
problems, I'm copying the message I sent to OT Chatter.

It's one of those times when we can't decided between throwing up our hands
and tearing out our hair (assuming we have some).

Neil
Moderator Team


<<<<<
I confess that, being the least techie of the three male moderators, I
haven't extracted anything sensible out of Yahoo (re-routing, automated
replies, nowt etc), but Elizabeth kindly forwarded this message from Yahoo,
sent to an X-Files list:

"Sometime last night, we had networking problems at our hosting center.  On
top of this, we had problems with four of our archive servers, which led to
the 'archive temporarily unavailable' message for groups on those machines.
Mail sent to these groups while the servers were down was queued here, and
doesn't need to be re-sent.  The above problems had a cascading effect on
all mail delivery, which is still backed up on the order of two hours.  Some
machines are less loaded than others though, so your mileage may vary."

This was dated about 3pm (looks like GMT), 2nd May.  Doesn't help our
withdrawal much, but at least we know it isn't a problem at our end.

Now... form an orderly queue for therapy at the Flying Ford Clinic.  Did I
mention that I'm putting my prices up...? <evil-g>

Neil
>>>>>





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Fri May  4 04:04:42 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 May 2001 04:04:42 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <988949082.515.68961.qc@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18113


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPforGrownups group:

Would you be interested in attending an 
interdisiplinary scholarly conference 
on Harry Potter (in the USA)?

Poll for Stephanie Keener: 
sdrk1 at yahoo.com 

  o Yes, I would be interested 
  o No, I would not be interested 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 05:11:45 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 05:11:45 -0000
Subject: Azkaban/ Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010503145857.00dcb960@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9ctdmh+li6f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18114

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 10:19 AM 5/3/01 +0000, mcandrew at b... wrote:
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> >Actually, I've been wondering for a while if Harry might end up 
being
> >imprisoned for at least a short stretch in Azkaban, maybe in Book
> >Five.
<snip>> 
> If Harry got sent to Azkaban for killing Cedric, that would
> make *two* people framed for murders actually commited
> by Wormtail!
<more snips>
 -- Dave
***********************
All of which makes me wonder why Fudge did not do more of an 
investigation when Harry returned with Cedric. Did they check Harry's 
wand, to see what spells he had used?

Did they just take Dumbledore's word on it all and that was that? 
hmmmmm

Doreen




From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Fri May  4 05:35:09 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:35:09 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
Message-ID: <20010504052332.1AB6711708@postfix1.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18116

Hi

Barty Crouch Sn. did it when Betha discovered Crouch, Jnr. in the Crouch home, 
after he was believed to have died at Azkaban.

Darreder

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com =====
>Voldemort says concerning Bertha Jorkins:
>"We could have modified her memory? But Memory Charms can be
>broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her. It
>would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
>extracted from her, Wormtail."
>
>I do not understand this paragraph. What did Voldemort mean when he
>said, "as I proved when I questioned her." ?
>
>Who had put a Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins? Why would they have put
>a Memory Charm on her?
>
>This is one of those things that I wondered about at the time I read
>it ... then I got distracted and forgot about it.
>
>Can anyone clear this up for me?
>
>Doreen
>
>
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the 
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the 
messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! 
For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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From catlady at wicca.net  Fri May  4 05:38:05 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 22:38:05 -0700
Subject: Salazar - 'Lectronic Lexicon - Sexy Sirius 
Message-ID: <3AF2403C.C76E2D4B@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18117

Amy Z wrote:
> Catlady wrote:
> > Salazar's argument was that Muggle-born students were
> > a security risk who might tell other Muggles about wizards
> > and witches
> Is this in canon or is this part of the voluminous and creative
> Catlady-generated backstory?  I'm too tired to hunt up the
> relevant passages.

CoS:  Binns answers Hermione's lecture question:
"You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand
years ago - the precise date is uncertain - by the four greatest witches

and wizards of the age. The four school Houses are named after
them: Godric Gryffindor, Helga Hufflepuff, Rowena Ravenclaw, and
Salazar Slytherin. They built this castle together, far from prying
Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common
people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution."

He paused, gazed blearily around the room, and continued.

"For a few years, the founders worked in harmony together, seeking
out youngsters who showed signs of magic and bringing them to the
castle to be educated. But then disagreements sprang up between
them. A rift began to grow between Slytherin and the others. Slytherin
wished to be more selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. He
believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magic families.

He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be
untrustworthy. After a while, there was a serious argument on the
subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the
school."

This is the sentence on which I lean: "He disliked taking students
of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy."

Steve the Obsessed wrote:
> Or am I just saving  them time and money on research and
> should I be billing them? And what are the chances that I get
> credit for any of this on the games?

I bet Electronic Arts would be willing to give a credit acknowledgment
to your Website, especially if they somehow got the idea that otherwise
you might ask them for money, but I'm not sure you really want to get a
credit acknowledgment : I suppose that the farther under the radar you
fly, the less danger you have of getting involved with intellectual
property lawyers who aren't HPfGU members.

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> The question I have is, why wasn't there an uproar from the
> Witch community when *Sirius* was imprisoned the way
> there was for Bagman?

Wizarding society seems very old-fashioned. No doubt it's the kind of
culture in which pretty young witches wouldn't want their husbands or
boyfriends to ever find out that the best sex they ever had was a
quickie, in a cloakroom or something, with a prominent Death Eater.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 06:28:06 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 06:28:06 -0000
Subject: Did Dobby apparate?
In-Reply-To: <9csait+lqjb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cti5m+f6nn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18118

I asked the same question in Message 16606. 
Here is a clip of the response.  

Steve 
In my opinion, House-Elf magic is some of the most powerful 
magic there is. Dobby is capable of amazing magical feats 
without a wand or incantation. He Apparates (the effect is 
the same, although he is proabably not using the Wizard spell 
to do it but a House-Elf version, which is why it works in 
Hogwarts). He can close a powerful magical portal at will. 
He can drastically affect a Bludger, which is not easy to do 
or players would do it all the time. 


Another thread started at Message 17022 response from Amanda. 

I had kind of thought that elf magic is inborn. All of them are 
magic, they're magic the way they have big eyes and no fashion 
sense. Humans have magical tendencies that can be trained, but I 
think elves do it instinctively. It's a different type of magic, 
that does not trigger the safeguards. 

Sooo, I think any creature can use its innate powers on the grounds 
of Hogwarts. A lethifold would be just as lethal. A hippogriff can 
fly. House-elves can poof (or some other word besides Apparate, to 
avoid confusing the issue).

  
Me   
Instinctive magic? Interesting theory: Elf powers are 
innate and 'poofing' is not restricted as apparating is. 
The spell that prevents apparating could treat 'poofing' 
as any spell or natural trait and not as apparating. 


Hope this helps,  Bugg  






From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri May  4 07:44:09 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 07:44:09 -0000
Subject: Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class
In-Reply-To: <9ct622+mpbr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ctmk9+fg5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18119


> jenny from ravenclaw wrote, " If Mad-Eye is not really Mad-Eye, but 
> Death 
> > Eater Barty Crouch, Jr, then why would he want anyone from 
> Gryffindor 
> > to be able to throw off the [imperious] curse?" 

Rosmerta answered:

 Imperious would be the No. 1 thing you would *avoid* 
> teaching if you were truly Voldemort's servant. 
>
> My own personal belief is that JKR wrote Mad-Eye as a likable, good-
> guy character, hit her much-publicized plot difficulties, and re-
> wrote him to be evil Crouch. to me the whole Mad-Eye/Crouch 
> revelation is so much less well set up than anything else she has 
> written....in my mind, it just sticks out like a sore thumb as a 
plot 
> fix. 

Good question, Jenny, I?ve been wondering too.

JKR probably needed to introduce the three curses in some way, because 
whenever a new spell or magic method becomes vital to the plot, we 
will have been told shortly before that it exists (invisibility 
cloaks, animagi, truth potion, polyjuice potion...).

I don?t agree with Rosmerta though that Moody teaching it is an 
inconsistency because JKR did not know herself at that time that Moody 
WAS Barty.

I think she knew all along. In an interview or chat she said the most 
difficult chapter she ever wrote was # 9 in GoF, which is at the world 
cup when the dark mark appears and all the ministry wizards, including 
Crouch sen. go looking for the culprit and Crouch covers up for his 
son.

So the Moody/Barty revelation might not be as well "set up" as other 
revelations (my absolute favourite is still Lupin being a werewolf), 
but it?s not inconsistent.

I personally think Dumbledore hired Moody to give the kids a real DADA 
teacher for a change because "he?s reading the signs, if noone else 
is", as someone says in GoF. He also authorised Moody particularly to 
teach them the unforgivable curses, in a way of preparing them.

What choice did Barty/Moody have but to do it?




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri May  4 08:34:26 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:34:26 -0000
Subject: No subject
In-Reply-To: <9cte0c+ir4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ctpii+cqua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18120

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
>   
> 
> Voldemort says concerning Bertha Jorkins:
> "We could have modified her memory? But Memory Charms can be
> broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her. It
> would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
> extracted from her, Wormtail." 
> 
> I do not understand this paragraph. What did Voldemort mean when he 
> said, "as I proved when I questioned her." ?
> 
> Who had put a Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins? Why would they have 
put 
> a Memory Charm on her? 
> 
> This is one of those things that I wondered about at the time I 
read 
> it ... then I got distracted and forgot about it.
> 
> Can anyone clear this up for me?
> 
> Doreen

Bertha Jorkins found out that Crouch Snr was hiding Crouch jnr in his 
house.  Therefore Crouch Snr put a memory charm on Bertha - it was 
this that Voldemort broke through.  What puzzles me though, is how 
did he know what to ask??

Catherine




From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Fri May  4 08:39:57 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 08:39:57 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix
Message-ID: <F229NIJWNDIT6bB5Rw1000004d6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18121

>From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix
>Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:53:38 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> > I recall a long time ago, I think it was right after the second
>book,
> > JKR said something about a land where giants ride dragons but she
> > wouldn't get around to it until book 5. This lady does think ahead.
>
>I've never heard this one before!  (Of course, I had no clue who HP
>was until after 3 and didn't read the books, much less any
>interviews, until after 4).  That does sound likely to pop up in 5,
>doesn't it?

I've never heard this one either, but I like it!

Am I the only person that assumed that was where Hagrid (and Mme Maxime) 
were going that they couldn't talk about at the end of GoF (not this place, 
but to see the giants living under moutains in remote areas of Europe? 
Dumbledore earlier had said (to Fudge, I'm fairly certain) that V. was 
coming back, and they needed to look for allies *now*- including among the 
giants who had been sent away from England. I would go look in my book, but 
that would mean moving the dog off my lap.

On that subject, do ya'll think we'll see Hagrid back in time for the new 
school year if that turns out to be true? Will we see 'Olympe' again?

Cait and corgis (Bou (CWC) and Wenna (PWC)) and temporary kitty Hermione 
(foster kitty in need of good home)

Corgi Haiku
"Are You going to eat that?"
"Are you going to eat that?" If not,
Then I will eat that.


>She does think ahead--she plotted out all 7 books before writing
>PS/SS--though she also says she makes up a lot of things as she
>goes.  One day I hope we'll see the JKR Notebooks and know which ones
>were which (I personally want to know whether when she wrote Book 1
>Chapter 1, she knew who "young Sirius Black" was going to turn out to
>be, or whether it was just a throwaway name, as I reckoned at the
>time).  When something happens like the "huge plot hole" opening
>under her feet during the writing of 4, it might force the reworking
>of plots and characters not only in the book in question, but in
>future ones--e.g., will she need that discarded Weasley cousin later
>on?
>
>Amy Z
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 10:09:46 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A pet theory -- Thoughts about where the Muggle/Wizards Worlds Collide
In-Reply-To: <9cp2l5+e7se@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010504100946.27548.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18122

> Do wizards concern themselves with the events in the Middle East? 
> Is there a wizard branch of Amnesty International which might take 
> up the cause of Sirius Black? 


Considering that in PoA, the Daily Prophet had to explain what a gun
was to its wizarding readers ("a sort of metal wand that muggles use
to kill each other"), I don't think wizards get involved in muggle
activities.  Arthur Weasley's intense interest in muggles seems to be
seen even in his family as some kind of endearing quirk.

Too much conflation with reality would, in my opinion, be a real
let-down.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 13:51:50 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:51:50 -0000
Subject: Bertha Jorkin's Memory Charm
Message-ID: <9cuc5m+g7dv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18123

Voldemort says concerning Bertha Jorkins:
"We could have modified her memory? But Memory Charms can be
broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her. It
would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
extracted from her, Wormtail." 

I do not understand this paragraph. What did Voldemort mean when he 
said, "as I proved when I questioned her." ?

Who had put a Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins? Why would they have put 
a Memory Charm on her? 

This is one of those things that I wondered about at the time I read 
it ... then I got distracted and forgot about it.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

Doreen








From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 14:28:29 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 14:28:29 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS & Voldemort's Defeat
In-Reply-To: <9csj3t+t0pt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cuead+alk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18124

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Andrea" <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > > Please say more, Andrea, because I also have a hard time 
> > > understanding this scene.  I get what Harry thinks and what 
Snape 
> > > thinks (possibly--it's not at all clear to me whether he 
suspects 
> > > that V comes into it somehow, or whether he just thinks Q is 
> trying 
> > > to get the Stone for some more mundane reason; I lean toward 
the 
> > > latter).  What I don't get is what Quirrell thinks Snape 
thinks.  
> > > This is key now that we all want to know how much Voldemort 
knows 
> or 
> > > suspects of Snape's true loyalties.  Can Snape plausibly claim 
to 
> be 
> > > loyal to Voldemort, or has he given himself away with his 
> activities 
> > > in PS/SS?
> > 
> > Hmm...well, I'm going to have to check my book once I get home to 
> be a 
> > little clearer about this scene.  I think that you could argue 
for 
> > either possibility - either that Quirrell/Voldie knew Snape knew 
> who 
> > they were, or that they just thought Snape thought it was 
Quirrell 
> > acting for selfish reasons.  Snape doesn't really make it clear, 
> other 
> > than the comment about choosing sides.  That could be argued for 
> > strongly suggesting that Snape knew it was Voldie calling the 
> shots.  
> > However, I think that it's equally plausible Snape was referring 
> just 
> > to supporting Dumbledore, who wanted the Stone to stay hidden, or 
> > going against him.  His support of Dumbledore at this stage could 
> be 
> > explained away as him staying "loyal" just so he could remain at 
> > Dumbledore's side, unsuspected, as the spy.  He could also say 
that 
> he 
> > was trying to keep the Stone safe so that *Snape* could use it to 
> help 
> > Voldie later, and he thought Quirrell just wanted it for himself.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Andrea
> 
> Thank you so much!  You have made it seem so obvious in retrospect, 
> but if it weren't for your insight I would not have seen it.  The 
> question of what Voldemort now knows about Snape because of this 
> conversation is now critical, as was brought out by the long back-
and-
> forth discussion recently about Snape's mission.  Please review the 
> text and bless us with further revelations!
> 
> Thanks again, 
> Haggridd

***************************
 "I saw you and Snape in the forest --" he blurted out.

    "Yes," said Quirrell idly, walking around the mirror to look
at the back. "He was on to me by that time, trying to find out
how far I'd got. He suspected me all along. Tried to frighten me -
as though he could, when I had Lord Voldemort on my side...."


My guess is that Snape had no clue that Voldemort was with Quirrel 
and that Snape only thought that Quirrel was trying to get the stone. 
I think that if he *knew* that Voldemort was with Quirrel, he would 
have stalked him and possibly tried to prevent him from getting the 
stone, but I do not think he would have been stupid enough to have 
any conversations with Quirrel that he would have to *explain later* 
to Voldemort. I think he just wanted to beat Quirrel to the punch in 
getting the stone/keeping the stone safe. 

I doubt that either Snape nor Dumbledore know that Voldemort is with 
Quirrel, or else they would never have lured Quirrel to the stone. Or 
would they? Perhaps each meeting of Harry and Voldemort at 
Voldemort's various stages of weakness, are all part of a master 
plan. Each time that Harry meets Voldemort, the idea being that he is 
to learn more about Voldemort, and Harry is to gain confidence in 
beating him each time. Thus, when Voldemort reaches his full strength 
and returns, Harry and only Harry, will be able to defeat him.

I think the reason that Harry does not defeat him in the first two 
meetings is that Voldemort can not be destroyed totally, in his 
present states at those meetings.

In the end, I think that Ron will most certainly either be killed or 
gravely wounded, and this will be the force that drives Harry to 
destroy Voldemort. I realize that Voldemort did kill Harry's parents 
and deprive him of a normal life with these parents, but I don't 
think this, alone, is enough to enrage him to rise up against 
Voldemort. It is just my own theory. Harry has lived his whole life 
without his parents, thereby never getting to know them and love them 
the way that he would have if they had raised him. I just don't think 
that his anger about the deaths of parents he never knew is strong 
enough for that kind of retaliation. I do, however, think that if 
Harry were to witness the death of his best friend at the hands of 
Voldemort, that it would create the kind of fury which would be 
necessary to seek revenge by destroying Voldemort.

Whoops! I certainly trailed off the subject here. Sorry.
Doreen




















From jenfold at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 14:50:56 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 14:50:56 -0000
Subject: Cosmetics
In-Reply-To: <9c8bht+mq0g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cufkg+eusk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18125

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Eyes would be alot more difficult to alter correctly. 
> Teeth and bones are easy to line up and shrink or grow. 
> There are a number of noses that should be realligned 
> and/or resized though. Noses (Cartilage) should be easier 
> than bone to manipulate. 
> 
> Bugg 
> 
> 
> "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > FURTHERMORE -- if they can fix teeth and bones, WHY don't they 
> correct vision?  Even Muggles can do that (if you don't have an 
> astigmatism, that is)
> > 
> > Stephanie
> >

 I'm supposed to be revising for finals so obviously it came to me.
 What if some part of wizards external features in particular hair 
and eyes are like dragons hide and therefore hard to effect or change 
by magic transformation.

 It would explain why magic people have to wear glasses. And why it 
Hermione so much hair potion and effort to do her hair for the 
christmas ball. Although it doesn't explain why Harry can make his 
hair grow at will. GRrrr.

 Jen 




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 15:02:06 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:02:06 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission - The Final Answer - This is it - No Kidding!
In-Reply-To: <9abesa+go8n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cug9e+qk4q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18126

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > I got it.  It just came to me.
> > 
> > It's so simple it's perfect.
> > 
> > Of course.  There's no other explanation.
> > 
> > The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to 
brew 
> up
> > a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into Harry 
as
> > a decoy for Voldemort.
> 

 What if he made up a batch of potion using hair from the soul sucked 
Barty Crouch Jnr and then went to see Voldemort posing at his most 
loyal servant.

 Would any official sources even mention to anyone outside of 
Dumbledore, Fudge and co. that Crouch Jnr had been soul sucked since 
then they would have to explain his escape from Azkaban to the 
wizarding general public. It doesn't seem likely especially as Fudge 
refused to believe much of what Dumbledore told him. So probably 
Voldemort would be unaware of Crouch Jnr's fate at the time Snape 
left to do his task. Meaning that Snape would have the oppertunity to 
pretend to be Crouch. 

 At the moment my brain wants to do anything but revise.

 Jen 




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 15:11:23 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:11:23 -0000
Subject: Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class
In-Reply-To: <9csngh+ho7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cugqr+sq92@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18127

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
>If Mad-Eye is not really Mad-Eye, but Death 
> Eater Barty Crouch, Jr, then why would he want anyone from 
Gryffindor 
> to be able to throw off the curse?  Why did he teach it to them?
> 
> That scene has been bothering me since I finished reading GoF for 
the 
> first time.  Does anyone have any thoughts about this?
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw****************************************

I think that BCJ taught the counter-curse:

1) To help ensure that Harry makes it thru the Triwizard Tournament 
to the Cup.
2) To make sure that it appeared that he was the real Moody, to throw 
off any suspicions of Dumbledore's.
3) He probably didn't think it would lessen any chances of 
Voldemort's in killing Harry right off ... he probably assumed that 
Voldemort would not waste time playing around with Harry. He probably 
assumed that Voldemort would go right for the Avada Kedavra and be 
done with him.
 
It just goes to show you how over-confidence breeds carelessness. 
Stupid villains!

Doreen, who thinks the same can be said of teenagers :)




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 15:23:42 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:23:42 -0000
Subject: underage magic (?)
In-Reply-To: <9csfli+jpnt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cuhhu+10qnp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18128

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> > When voldey murdered his father he was a "teenage" boy, does that 
> > mean he was underage??? I don't know if this subject has already 
> been 
> > thrashed out, I'll go check...
> 
> It's hard to say.  We just don't have an exact enough date either 
for 
> the murders or for Voldemort's birth.  He was a fifth-year student 
> fifty years before CS, which puts his birth at around 1927, and the 
> murders took place fifty years before GF, which puts them around 
> 1944.  That would make him 17 the year he killed his family--
probably 
> the summer after his 6th or 7th year.  But both of those "fifty 
> years" are likely to be approximate--no one ever says "The Chamber 
of 
> Secrets was opened exactly 50 years ago" or "Exactly 50 years ago, 
> Frank Bryce was accused of murder." 
> 
> Why do you ask?  Wondering whether he'd received his Avada Kedavra 
> license yet?
> 
> Amy Z

 Was there actually a law about underage magic during the school 
holidays at that time? 
 After all in PS Petunia complained about Lily comming home during 
the holidays and doing magic and that was a good 30ish years after 
Voldemort killed his parents. I think that the underage magic act may 
be a recent law, so maybe Lord V didn't need his Avada Kedavra 
License at all.

 Jen  




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 15:23:46 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:23:46 -0000
Subject: Bertha Jorkin's Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9cuc5m+g7dv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cuhi2+lpkv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18129

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> Voldemort says concerning Bertha Jorkins:
> "We could have modified her memory? But Memory Charms can be
> broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her. It
> would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
> extracted from her, Wormtail." 
> 
> I do not understand this paragraph. What did Voldemort mean when he 
> said, "as I proved when I questioned her." ?
> 
> Who had put a Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins? Why would they have 
put 
> a Memory Charm on her? 
> 
> This is one of those things that I wondered about at the time I 
read 
> it ... then I got distracted and forgot about it.
> 
> Can anyone clear this up for me?
> 
*****************
Geez, Doreen!

Try reading the book. Another re-read and a trip to the Lexicon 
cleared this up for me just fine.

The Memory Charm that was put on Bertha was done by Barty Crouch when 
Bertha discovered that Barty Crouch Jr. was alive & well at the 
Crouch residence.

Sorry to have taken up space on that question

Doreen
> Doreen




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 15:39:59 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:39:59 -0000
Subject: is no subject ... should be Bertha Jorkins & Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9ctpii+cqua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cuigf+em2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18130

> 
> Bertha Jorkins found out that Crouch Snr was hiding Crouch jnr in 
his 
> house.  Therefore Crouch Snr put a memory charm on Bertha - it was 
> this that Voldemort broke through.  What puzzles me though, is how 
> did he know what to ask??
> 
> Catherine

Thanks, Catherine. I also found that out via the Lexicon and a re-
read. Amazing what you forget when you have not read the book in a 
while and get lost in other areas of discussion. I think it drains 
the brain .. mine anyway.

Maybe Voldemort just started drilling her about any information 
concerning the MOM and when he got to the Crouch part of her memory, 
discovered that there was a Memory Charm placed there. (not sure how 
this works... perhaps the person, under the right kind of spell, just 
blurts out, "This information is protected under a Memory Charm, I 
can not tell you any more about it.") 

Anyway, knowing Voldemort, he asked enough questions that led him to 
believe that she was leaving something out, so he zapped her brain 
with a counter curse to the Memory Charm. Then he discovered that BCJ 
was alive and well and the plan to send him to Hogwarts to bring 
Harry to Voldemort was begun. So much for Bertha's usefulness. 

Evil though it was, I loved JKR's play on words in the statement by 
Voldemort:

"It would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
extracted from her, Wormtail."

Doreen





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May  4 16:10:27 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:10:27 -0000
Subject: Wands and their cores
In-Reply-To: <9csuc4+hlq7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cuk9j+1gj1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18131

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:
> If I'm a bit off, forgive me -- I've been reading HP since the end 
of 
> February.
> 
> I've seen wands with 3 types of cores -- unicorn hair, phoenix 
> feather and dragon heartstring. Has anything been written about what 
> magical properties each of these carry? 
> 
> Likewise, can someone direct me to a website that details the 
> properites of particular woods that such wands might be made from? 
> For example, the benefits and disadvantages of rosewood.
> 
> Thanks,
> Belle

This website has the some trees mixed in with the "language of 
flowers"
http://www.cybercom.net/~klb/flowers.html

As far as rosewood, I know that some wooden musical insturments, like 
guitars are made of rosewood and some furniture have rosewood inlay.

:-)Milz




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Fri May  4 16:33:52 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:33:52 -0000
Subject: Bertha Jorkin's Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9cuhi2+lpkv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cullg+nt88@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18132

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> > Voldemort says concerning Bertha Jorkins:
> > "We could have modified her memory? But Memory Charms can be
> > broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her. It
> > would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
> > extracted from her, Wormtail." 
> > 
    - snip -
> 
> Sorry to have taken up space on that question
> 
> Doreen
> > Doreen
No, don't apologise - you have raised the question, what *else* did 
Voldemort get out of her memory, for example, about her current boss, 
Ludo Bagman, or about Fudge?
IIRC, Rita Skeeta mentions something in Hogsmeade to Harry about LB, 
and clearly doesn't know about his involvement with the goblins, so 
perhaps knows about something else.  As well as recent discussions 
about Winky' belief about him.  Does he disappear at the end because 
V has blackmailed/recruited him?

David, whose maiden post this is




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri May  4 16:35:28 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:35:28 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS & Voldemort's Defeat
In-Reply-To: <9cuead+alk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9culog+v57t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18133

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> I think the reason that Harry does not defeat him in the first two 
> meetings is that Voldemort can not be destroyed totally, in his 
> present states at those meetings.
>
This makes sense.  It also links in with the fact that it was 
necessary to Dumbledore's plans to have Voldemort use Harry's blood.  
The blood, as discussed before, could render Voldemort more human, 
and therefore more vulnerable, meaning that he is now in a state 
whereby he can be totally defeated.
 
> In the end, I think that Ron will most certainly either be killed 
or 
> gravely wounded, and this will be the force that drives Harry to 
> destroy Voldemort. I realize that Voldemort did kill Harry's 
parents 
> and deprive him of a normal life with these parents, but I don't 
> think this, alone, is enough to enrage him to rise up against 
> Voldemort. It is just my own theory. Harry has lived his whole life 
> without his parents, thereby never getting to know them and love 
them 
> the way that he would have if they had raised him. I just don't 
think 
> that his anger about the deaths of parents he never knew is strong 
> enough for that kind of retaliation. I do, however, think that if 
> Harry were to witness the death of his best friend at the hands of 
> Voldemort, that it would create the kind of fury which would be 
> necessary to seek revenge by destroying Voldemort.
> 
> Whoops! I certainly trailed off the subject here. Sorry.
> Doreen

You could be right about Ron - but my feeling is that it could 
equally be Hermione, Hagrid - anyone who Harry cares deeply about.  
This lead me on to thinking that the person most vulnerable from 
Voldemort in this instance would be Sirius.  This is purely because 
Harry has always had to live without the love and guidance of his 
parents - and in GoF we see him leaning more and more on Sirius - who 
is, afterall, the Potters' choice as Harry's guardianship.  If 
Voldemort takes Sirius away from Harry, as he did his parents, then 
this also may give Harry the impetus he needs to destroy Voldemort.  
I hope not though, as I am a very serious member of the Sirius 
fanclub!

Catherine




From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May  4 16:35:46 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:35:46 EDT
Subject: hey there!
Message-ID: <46.143f976b.28243462@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18134

ok, just a quick post to introduce myself...
I was on this list when it was aclub in Yahoo but then I was bogged down with 
school work and had to quit for a while.  I decided a few nights ago that I 
would sign back up again...V. glad I did because the discussions are pretty 
cool at the moment.

I've been a HP fan for ages...my copy of the first book was bought only a few 
weeks after it was first published...and since then I've been one of those 
people waiting outside waterstones at midnight to get my hands on a copy of 
book four!

I am quite young for the group...depending on your view point I'm not adult 
as I am only 16...If the moderators feel that I am too young then please feel 
free to tell me and I'll get off! I live in the UK and I'm currently worrying 
about GCSEs. (argh!!)

umm....that's about all I can think of to say!
oh! one thing, when this list was a yahoo club good SPaG was expected...I'm 
just checking to see if that is still the case....

Hope that Order of the Phoenix will be as good as the rest!

DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri May  4 16:39:25 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:39:25 -0000
Subject: underage magic, fifty years ago
In-Reply-To: <9cuhhu+10qnp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9culvt+pbb9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18135


> > > When voldey murdered his father he was a "teenage" boy, does 
that 
> > > mean he was underage??? 

If he was underage, and if there was a law at that time, I don't 
think we can judge the enforcement procedures for that law by what we 
see happen to Harry. The law seems to me to be practically 
unenforceable -- how do they know that the spell-caster was the 
underage person at that address, for example? More than likely, mom 
or dad do the enforcing. In Harry's case, however, the Ministry is 
monitoring VERY closely. They want him protected from Voldemort and 
his supporters and they know that an instance of magic in a Potter-
related place where no magic should be would be a dead give away. I 
think that part of the protections set up by Dumbledore involve close 
monitoring of Harry's actions when he's away from school, and that 
includes magic use.
 
> > It's hard to say.  We just don't have an exact enough date either 
> for 
> > the murders or for Voldemort's birth.  He was a fifth-year 
student 
> > fifty years before CS, which puts his birth at around 1927, and 
the 
> > murders took place fifty years before GF, which puts them around 
> > 1944.  That would make him 17 the year he killed his family--
> probably 
> > the summer after his 6th or 7th year.  But both of those "fifty 
> > years" are likely to be approximate--no one ever says "The 
Chamber 
> of 
> > Secrets was opened exactly 50 years ago" or "Exactly 50 years 
ago, 
> > Frank Bryce was accused of murder." 

This is an important thing to note. None of the dating we use is 
exact, or practically none. However, by working from a basic 
assumption of date, we can construct a logical, internally consistent 
timeline that helps put things in perspective. The timelines in the 
Lexicon all work from the assumption that we take the dates literally 
as given, not because they "have" to be that, but because without 
that assumption we couldn't place anything on a timeline at all. It 
does require some adjusting here and there to make the events fit the 
real calendar (I had to add a day at the beginning of PS/SS, for 
example, in order to make the stated days of the week fit the actual 
ones) but it does at least give us a structure to work with. It's 
clear, though, that JKR made no attempt to match the details in her 
story with any actual calendar.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
timeline-lovers heaven
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May  4 16:41:57 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:41:57 EDT
Subject: Harry's age
Message-ID: <91.a578641.282435d5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18136

I would have to say that Harry was born in 1984/1985 (if this has been 
discussed...sorry, please tell me!)

when the books are released at one every year he is always in the same school 
year as me (ie, in book four he is in year ten (fourth year secondary).  I 
was born in 1984 but that's because I'm a November birthday.  Many of the 
people in my year were born in 1985....
just a thought...please tell me if it has been workied out as being otherwise!

DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri May  4 16:44:42 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:44:42 -0000
Subject: Snape's mission - The Final Answer - This is it - No Kidding!
In-Reply-To: <9cug9e+qk4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cum9q+9h4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18137

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
wrote:
> > > I got it.  It just came to me.
> > > 
> > > It's so simple it's perfect.
> > > 
> > > Of course.  There's no other explanation.
> > > 
> > > The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to 
> brew 
> > up
> > > a batch of Polyjuice Potion and then transform himself into 
Harry 
> as
> > > a decoy for Voldemort.
> > 
> 
>  What if he made up a batch of potion using hair from the soul 
sucked 
> Barty Crouch Jnr and then went to see Voldemort posing at his most 
> loyal servant.

The problem is that very little time elapses between when they found 
out that Barty Crouch has been sucked soul-less and when Dumbledore 
says to Snape "You know what you have to do."  Whatever it is, it has 
to be something they have planned out in advance.  I have been 
puzzling over this for months and I can not come up with a theory 
that fits all the circumstances.

--Joywitch




From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May  4 16:44:51 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:44:51 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: nitpick alert: Crookshanks
Message-ID: <9b.1475c094.28243683@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18138

maybe crookshanks was the product of an illegal animagi transformation 
which/that went wrong...

DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Fri May  4 16:47:27 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:47:27 -0000
Subject: Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class
In-Reply-To: <9csngh+ho7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cumev+43m8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18139

meboriqua at a... wrote:

>If Mad-Eye is not really Mad-Eye, but Death 
>Eater Barty Crouch, Jr, then why would he want anyone from 
>Gryffindor to be able to throw off the curse?

The phony Mad Eye didn't teach Harry to resist the
imperious curse because he didn't know how to do it
himself, it took him years of painful effort and even
then was only partially successful. Mad Eye wasn't 
teaching he was testing, he wanted to see just how
powerful his enemy Harry really was and he found out.
Harry was very powerful. Harry did in just a few minutes
what had taken Mad Eye years to do and he did it better. 







From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May  4 16:48:50 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:48:50 -0000
Subject: Harry's age
In-Reply-To: <91.a578641.282435d5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9cumhi+27k1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18140

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lizscford at a... wrote:
> I would have to say that Harry was born in 1984/1985 (if this has 
been 
> discussed...sorry, please tell me!)
> 
> when the books are released at one every year he is always in the 
same school 
> year as me (ie, in book four he is in year ten (fourth year 
secondary).  I 
> was born in 1984 but that's because I'm a November birthday.  Many 
of the 
> people in my year were born in 1985....
> just a thought...please tell me if it has been workied out as being 
otherwise!
> 

According to CoS, Nearly Headless Nick died on Ocotber 31, 1492. And 
Nick was celebrating his 400th Death Day. So CoS happened during the 
1992-1993 school year. Harry was 12 years old during CoS, so Harry was 
born in 1980.

:-)Milz




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri May  4 16:58:58 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:58:58 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest # 1
Message-ID: <9cun4i+f4ov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18141

Hello fellow HP fanatics!  Welcome to the first of what will, 
hopefully, be many fun contests.  For those of you who missed the 
introductory post, I will be (with the Moderator's permission) 
posting a contest here every week, on Friday.

I thought I'd start small, so the first contest is pretty basic - a 
garden-variety trivia quiz.  Remember, it is not considered 
"sporting" to refer to the books, the HP Lexicon, or any other 
reference materials in order to answer trivia questions.  A true HP 
fan will answer the questions off the top of his/her head.

But first, the rules.

HP4GU Contest Rules!
1.  Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email 
address, which is HP4GUCon at aol.com.  RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED 
TO THE LIST.  Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers, to 
the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest, 
sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to eat 
bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST.

2.  Contests will be posted on Fridays.  Responses should be sent by 
email to HP4GUCon at aol.com by midnight Tuesday night.  For puzzle 
contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who 
submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted on 
Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest).  For creative and speculative 
contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a 
random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular 
contest.

The Contest
1. What is the name of the school that Dudley Dursley goes to?
2. What language do Goblins speak?
3. What species of dragon is the smallest?
4. What's the subtitle of the book "Fowl or Foul?"
5. On the night Harry's parents are killed, who does Professor 
McGonagall think is setting off shooting stars in Kent?
6. What's the difference between "parselmouth" and "parseltongue"?
7. One turn of the time-turner sends you how far back in time?
8. According to rumor, what type of creature guards the high-security 
vaults in Gringott's bank?
9. What is the remedy for a Swelling Solution?
10. Who is the playwright who penned these immortal lines?

	GRENOUILLE:  I cannot go with you to the market today, 
Crapaud.
	CRAPAUD:  But, Grenouille, I cannot carry the cow alone.
	GRENOUILLE:  You know, Crapaud, that I am to be Keeper this 
morning.  Who will stop the Quaffle if I do not?

EXTRA CREDIT:  What is the name of the play, in English and in French?

Remember, DON'T POST YOUR ANSWERS, email them to me!!!!!!

--Joywitch M. Curmudgeon




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri May  4 17:03:40 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 17:03:40 -0000
Subject: HP4GU mini-Contest results
Message-ID: <9cundc+g0eb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18142

Several alert and smart members found the mini-contest embedded in 
the HP4GU Contest announcement.  The anagram of the full name of the 
contest, The Invitational, Magical, Exciting, Weekly, All-Smarty's 
Tournament Extraordinaire, spells TIMEWASTE.

This was found almost immediately by Lisa (lmrourke at snet.net), and 
also by Craig, who thought it was too obvious 
(rcraigharman at hotmail.com) and by Amy Z (aiz24 at hotmail.com)

Keep those cards and letters coming in, folks!

--Joywitch M. Curmudgeon




From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May  4 17:05:47 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:05:47 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's age/qudditch
Message-ID: <53.59b2924.28243b6b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18143

ahhh... (sobs in disappointment as she realises that Harry and Co. are no 
longer the same age as her!)
I had wondered where people had worked out 1980 from...
What do people think of the Quidditch game on www.harrypotter.com?
DARLA


Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 17:10:30 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 17:10:30 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9csrba+uo0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cunq6+b7hp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18144

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> Isn't Snape asking Quirrell if he has found out yet?  Snape wants 
> the info. 

That's certainly what Harry thinks!  We have to draw a distinction 
between what *Harry* thinks all of this means, and what we can see it 
means with the knowledge that Quirrell was after the Stone all along. 
 Snape's words can be taken with both meanings.

> > Then the words are drowned out and Harry only hears, "...your 
> little 
> > bit of hocus-pocus."  Harry thinks that Snape wants to know how 
> > Quirrell was protecting the stone so Snape can defeat it, but 
> > Snape is 
> > actually referring to the spell Quirrell was putting on Harry's 
> > broomstick during the Quiddich match.
> 
> Why would Snape need to know about the spell Quirrell was putting on 
> Harry's broomstick?  I think Snape is wanting to know what Quirrell 
> is doing to protect the stone.  Snape wants to know how to get past 
> Quirrell's beast and he wants to know what Quirrell has done. 

Again, that's what *Harry* thinks.  All we hear Snape say is "...your 
little bit of hocus pocus."  Harry (and we, on first reading) assume 
that he's trying to find out how to get past Quirrell's protection.  
But Snape could just as easily have been saying, "And don't think on 
the Quiddich field just now I didn't notice your little bit of 
hocus-pocus" or something along those lines.

> 'So we were right, it is the Philosopher's Stone, and Snape's trying 
> to force Quirrell to help him get it.  He asked if he knew how to 
get 
> past Fluffy - and he said something about Quirrell's hocus-pocus'-I 
> reckon there are other things guarding the stone apart from Fluffy, 
> loads of enchantments, probably, and Quirrell would have done some 
> anti-Dark Arts spell which Snape needs to break through-'

This is what Harry thought when he first saw everything play out, but 
it's shown later that Quirrell himself was the problem.  Snape wasn't 
the bad guy in this case, so we have to re-evaluate our assumptions 
from earlier.

> There are two parts to this little scene which interests me just as 
> much as what was just brought up.  One is where Snape tells 
> Quirrell, 'Students aren't supposed to know about the Philosopher's 
> Stone, after all.'  How does Snape know HH & R know about the stone?

He doesn't.  That line is in explanation for why he's talking to 
Quirrell in the Forbidden Forest, where students aren't allowed.  Less 
chance of a student, who isn't supposed to know about the PS, 
stumbling across them.  Dang Harry! [g]

Hope I explained things a bit better. :)


Andrea




From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May  4 18:09:22 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:09:22 EDT
Subject: boggart
Message-ID: <f8.9c68fdd.28244a52@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18145


<Imagine Petunia or Dudley's reaction if they opened the
front door and saw a dementor there>
hmmm...this lead me onto some speculation about various people's Boggart 
things would be:
after a few minutes of hard thinking here are my conclusions:

Petunia's would be to find out Dudley was a wizard
Dudley's would be to find out that he had to go and life with a wizarding 
family
Vernon's would be to find out that he owed a great deal of money....to Harry
Filch's would be a dead Mrs Norris (which, BTW, was the card I got when I 
bought chocolate frogs recently...)
at this point I gave up...can you think of any more?

What I'd really like to know is can Boggarts affect Muggles?
I mean, is it only magicky people that they can affect or is it anyone with 
an imagination?  How would a muggle fiht a Boggart anyway?hmmm...too many 
boggarty thought's going through my head now...I'm going to have to write a 
fic to sort them all out...

DARLA/LIZ/BETH...who ever you know me as..
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 18:11:34 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 18:11:34 -0000
Subject: Wands and their cores
In-Reply-To: <9cuk9j+1gj1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9curcm+h9nm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18146

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:
> > Likewise, can someone direct me to a website that details the 
> > properites of particular woods that such wands might be made 
from? 
> > For example, the benefits and disadvantages of rosewood.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Belle
> 
> As far as rosewood, I know that some wooden musical insturments, 
like 
> guitars are made of rosewood and some furniture have rosewood inlay.
> 
> :-)Milz

Here's something interesting.  Appalachian folklore (which means that 
this most likely has a lowland Scot or northern English origin) holds 
that Ash wood keeps away SNAKES.  Now, don't get too excited, I 
already checked, and Harry's wand is made of Holly.  However, 
Cedric's wand was made of ash.  Reckon what happened to it?  Do you 
think Wormtail or someone picked it up?  I don't remember Harry 
bringing it back along with Cedric's body.  

Stephanie  




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 18:13:08 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 18:13:08 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's Defeat ... Who Will Die?
In-Reply-To: <9culog+v57t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9curfk+3v2h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18147

>  
> > In the end, I think that Ron will most certainly either be killed 
> or 
> > gravely wounded, and this will be the force that drives Harry to 
> > destroy Voldemort. 
> > Doreen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
> You could be right about Ron - but my feeling is that it could 
> equally be Hermione, Hagrid - anyone who Harry cares deeply about.  
> This lead me on to thinking that the person most vulnerable from 
> Voldemort in this instance would be Sirius.  This is purely because 
> Harry has always had to live without the love and guidance of his 
> parents - and in GoF we see him leaning more and more on Sirius - 
who 
> is, afterall, the Potters' choice as Harry's guardianship.  If 
> Voldemort takes Sirius away from Harry, as he did his parents, then 
> this also may give Harry the impetus he needs to destroy 
Voldemort.  
> Catherine
*******************
I agree about Sirius, for all the reasons you stated. I just do not 
think that Harry has the same closeness with Hermione that he has 
with Ron. (even if he has a romantic interest) 

I think he would be grief stricken if Voldemort killed Hagrid, 
Hermione, or Dumbledore, but more sad than mad. I think if Voldemort 
killed Ron or Sirius, Harry would be furious, as well as grief 
stricken. I think his rage would outweigh his sadness.

Just my humble opinion
Doreen




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri May  4 18:17:21 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 11:17:21 -0700
Subject: HP&GoF CH. 1
In-Reply-To: <9cuigf+em2q@eGroups.com>
References: <9ctpii+cqua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504111004.00c8e3f0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18148

At 03:39 PM 5/4/01 +0000, nera at rconnect.com wrote:
>Evil though it was, I loved JKR's play on words in the statement by
>Voldemort:
>
>"It would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
>extracted from her, Wormtail."

And did anyone else catch that bit of foreshadowing when V says,
"Your part will come at the end, Wormtail; it is a function that my
loyal supporters would GIVE THEIR RIGHT HAND to perform!"

But I *still* can't figure out what intended victim V is talking about
when he says, "Just one more death, and the path to Harry Potter
is clear."



                                                 -- Dave




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri May  4 18:13:51 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:13:51 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] boggart
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F06@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18149

I forget exactly who wrote: 
> <Imagine Petunia or Dudley's reaction if they opened the
> front door and saw a dementor there>

But Lupin said that Muggles can't see Dementors, although they can sense
their presence, so would they see anything? Or would they just open the door
and get very depressed all of a sudden. 
This, of course, is giving me the odd mental image of Death in The Last
Action Hero, walking through the streets of NYC, pointing at a couple
people, and causing a bit of mayhem - but the passers-by aren't quite able
to see what's going on...



From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 18:25:42 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 18:25:42 -0000
Subject: Wands and their cores & missing wands
In-Reply-To: <9curcm+h9nm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cus76+vrus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18150


<snipped other wand stuff>
However, 
> Cedric's wand was made of ash.  Reckon what happened to it?  Do you 
> think Wormtail or someone picked it up?  I don't remember Harry 
> bringing it back along with Cedric's body.  
> 
> Stephanie

***********
Speaking of missing wands: 
1) what happened to James' wand, 
2) Lily's wand, 
3) Pettigrew's wand when he turned into a rat, or any animagi really, 
4) Voldemort's wand when he lost his physical form, 
5) the prisoners wands when they are sent to Azkaban,
6) Neville's parents' wands when they went to the hospital,

Speaking of Neville, why doesn't he have a wand? When I read the wand 
section of the webpage that Steve suggested, I found it interesting 
that she thought that Ron might be the next to die, since the 
innocent are the first to go... and since Cedric and Ron both have 
Unicorn hairs in their wands. Who in the stories has been more 
innocent and very much present than Neville? If an innocent were to 
go next, I think he is doomed.

Doreen






From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May  4 18:28:16 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:28:16 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Strange places you find HP mentioned
Message-ID: <39.14487bba.28244ec0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18151

he's mentioned in buffy
Giles (a watcher) runs a magic shop and Buffy is told to take her younger 
sister there before going shopping for school stuff.
Dawn (the younger sister) is not impressed and replies 'Mum, it's not like im 
going to Hogwarts!"

DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 18:29:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 18:29:52 -0000
Subject: HP&GoF CH. 1
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504111004.00c8e3f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cusf0+2i68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18152

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 03:39 PM 5/4/01 +0000, nera at r... wrote:
> >Evil though it was, I loved JKR's play on words in the statement by
> >Voldemort:
> >
> >"It would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
> >extracted from her, Wormtail."
> 
> And did anyone else catch that bit of foreshadowing when V says,
> "Your part will come at the end, Wormtail; it is a function that my
> loyal supporters would GIVE THEIR RIGHT HAND to perform!"
> 
> But I *still* can't figure out what intended victim V is talking 
about
> when he says, "Just one more death, and the path to Harry Potter
> is clear."
> 
> 
> I am fairly sure that he was talking about Barty Crouch Sr.'s 
death. That was the next death. Cedric came after that, but he 
was "the spare" and unexpected.

Barty Crouch Sr.'s death would have been deemed necessary to keep the 
secret of Barty Crouch Jr. going until the Tournament was finished 
and Harry was delivered to Voldemort.

Doreen
>                                                  -- Dave




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 18:46:58 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 18:46:58 -0000
Subject: Wands and their cores & missing wands
In-Reply-To: <9cus76+vrus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cutf2+5cfr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18153

I have wondered for a long time about Sirius Black's wand and what 
became of it-- and why he does not appear to have obtained a new wand, 
now that he is free.

You would think that if he could purchase a Firebolt, and wand would 
be a simple matter.

--Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> 
> <snipped other wand stuff>
> However, 
> > Cedric's wand was made of ash.  Reckon what happened to it?  Do 
you 
> > think Wormtail or someone picked it up?  I don't remember Harry 
> > bringing it back along with Cedric's body.  
> > 
> > Stephanie
> 
> ***********
> Speaking of missing wands: 
> 1) what happened to James' wand, 
> 2) Lily's wand, 
> 3) Pettigrew's wand when he turned into a rat, or any animagi 
really, 
> 4) Voldemort's wand when he lost his physical form, 
> 5) the prisoners wands when they are sent to Azkaban,
> 6) Neville's parents' wands when they went to the hospital,
> 
> Speaking of Neville, why doesn't he have a wand? When I read the 
wand 
> section of the webpage that Steve suggested, I found it interesting 
> that she thought that Ron might be the next to die, since the 
> innocent are the first to go... and since Cedric and Ron both have 
> Unicorn hairs in their wands. Who in the stories has been more 
> innocent and very much present than Neville? If an innocent were to 
> go next, I think he is doomed.
> 
> Doreen




From margdean at erols.com  Fri May  4 18:10:37 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 14:10:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and their cores & missing wands
References: <9cutf2+5cfr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF2F09D.BE7842@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18154

rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> I have wondered for a long time about Sirius Black's wand and what
> became of it-- and why he does not appear to have obtained a new wand,
> now that he is free.
> 
> You would think that if he could purchase a Firebolt, and wand would
> be a simple matter.

Not necessarily!  The Firebolt could be purchased by mail order
(owl order, whatever), but it seems likely that wand-buying has
to be done in person -- at least, an exacting craftsman like Mr.
Ollivander wouldn't have it any other way, since the wand has to
be matched carefully to the person.  Sirius can't risk that kind
of face-to-face contact with most of the wizarding community.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From catlady at wicca.net  Fri May  4 19:38:39 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:38:39 -0700
Subject: Cosmetics - Teenagers - Bagman - HP's age - Imperius - More
Message-ID: <3AF3053E.A88599A1@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18155

I'm in a happy and verbose mood because I signed up to take all Fridays
this month off as personal days, so I got to sleep until all hours!

On one of my other lists, Karl who is in Britain put a PS on one of his
posts dated
Fri, 4 May 2001 10:52:42 +0100

> PS: I saw the moon peep out the clouds last night. She was
> getting fat but had no Silicon Soapware. If I see here tonight,
> she'll be properly attired.

I wanted to share it with all the werewolf lovers here, partly because
the wording just struck me as beautiful, but also because it is evidence
of a sort about Moon and clouds in Britain in May, a supposed spring
month.

[ Silicon Soapware is an e-zine pubbed at New Moon, my copy arrived
before Karl's post, was dated Fri, 4 May 2001 02:09:33 -0700 (PDT) ),
with masthead:
SILICON SOAPWARE
Issue #77
New Moon of April 23, 2001]

Jen jenfold wrote:
> What if some part of wizards external features in particular hair
> and eyes are like dragons hide and therefore hard to effect or change
> by magic transformation.

That makes sense! Of course, it wouldn't be EXACTLY like dragonhide: the
hair, eyes, noses change in Animagus transformation, Polyjuice Potion,
ordinary Transfiguration .... there is some passing reference to a
student in Transfiguration class who was accidentally turned into a
badger and still had black and white striped hair when turned back...
That little difference could explain why hair that had been removed from
its proper 'do' could be magically grown back, but a person with a short
'do' maybe can't magically grow it out to a long style.

Doreen wrote:
> It just goes to show you how over-confidence breeds carelessness.
> Stupid villains!
> Doreen, who thinks the same can be said of teenagers :)

Once upon a time, when PSYCH TODAY hadn't yet become so sleazy that I
discontinued my subscription, an article reported a study that found
that teenagers don't think they are invulnerable, do realize the things
they do are dangerous, are scared while doing them, but they override
their fear because of other priorities.

David Frankis wrote:
> IIRC, Rita Skeeta mentions something in Hogsmeade to
> Harry about LB, and clearly doesn't know about his
> involvement with the goblins, so  perhaps knows about
> something else.

I've always assumed that Skeeter was referring to Bagman's trial for
spying for Death Eaters. Every time my nasty old boss made me write ASS
U ME on his whiteboard, my assumption was later proved correct, but I
admit  that doesn't apply to JKR's red herrings.

Darla/Liz/Beth (?) wrote:
> when the books are released at one every year he is
> always in the same school  year as me (ie, in book four
> he is in year ten (fourth year secondary.

But that will no longer be true with Book 5. Book 4 was delayed from May
2000 to July 2000 because of JKR's rewrite for the 'plot hole'. Book 5
was delayed from May 2001 to November 2001 to IIRC May to IIRC November
2001 because JKR is too busy to spend 24 hours a day writing it.

Btw, you appear to be a Buffy fan. You might be interested in Keith
Fraser's fanfic Ginny the Vampire Slayer.

Eggplant wrote:
> The phony Mad Eye didn't teach Harry to resist the
> imperious curse because he didn't know how to do it
> himself, it took him years of painful effort and even
> then was only partially successful. Mad Eye wasn't
> teaching he was testing,

There are ways in which it is possible for a person to teach how to do
something that heesh (the teacher) can't do himerself. Athletic coaches
are an example.

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> And did anyone else catch that bit of foreshadowing when
> V says,  "Your part will come at the end, Wormtail; it is a
> function that my loyal supporters would GIVE THEIR
> RIGHT HAND to perform!"

Isn't it a very obvious, maybe even cliched, piece of foreshadowing? I
recognised it on first reading. I didn't have any idea that Voldemort
would use it in a spell to get a new body, but I yawned: "Oh, V is going
to cut Wormtail's hand off. Why do villains always love that pun?"

Doreen asked:
> Speaking of missing wands:
> 1) what happened to James' wand,
> 2) Lily's wand,
I expect they were destroyed along with their home.

> 3) Pettigrew's wand when he turned into a rat, or any animagi really,
I believe that an Animagus's wand, clothing, and all the stuff in hiser
pockets 'vanish'
when heesh transforms, only to 'reappear' when heesh turns human again
---otherwise known as it turns into a bit of fur, feather, scale, skin,
blood cell... My theory is that for werewolves, only their clothes,
eyeglasses, and marriage rings change along with them.

> 4) Voldemort's wand when he lost his physical form,
I like to think that V brought Pettigrew with him when he went to attack
the Potters (in order to make sure that P was not leading him into a
trap), and Pettigrew picked up V's fallen wand before turning into a rat
and fleeing.

> 5) the prisoners wands when they are sent to Azkaban,
Considering that Hagrid's wand was snapped just for having been
expelled, one would expect that the wand of anyone sentenced to life
imprisonment would be snapped. I suppose the MoM has a locked place to
keep wands of people who are being held only temporarily.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri May  4 19:42:28 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 19:42:28 -0000
Subject: Biblical Magic (long)
Message-ID: <9cv0n5+54e8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18156

I think the following article gives a good balanced discussion of 
magic as depicted in Scripture.  Although the Bible's portrayal is 
largely one of condemnation, it is not exclusively so.

And no where does it take a stand on fictional accounts of imaginary 
wizards.

    - CMC

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary
of Biblical Theology 

Magic 

The Old Testament. Magic?the attempt to exploit supernatural powers 
by formulaic recitations to achieve goals that were otherwise 
unrealizable?was seen in a negative light in the Old Testament (Lev 
19:26, 31; 20:6; 1 Sam 28:9; Isa 8:19; 44:25; 57:3; Jer 27:9; Ezek 
22:28; Micah 5:12; Nahum 3:4; Mal 3:5) and was banned under penalty 
of death (Exod 22:18; Lev 20:27; Deut 18:10-11). However, many 
Canaanite magical practices were later widespread in the divided 
monarchy: Jezebel practiced sorcery (2 Kings 9:22); Manasseh 
encouraged divination (2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chron 33:6); Hebrew seers and 
diviners practiced the magic arts (Micah 3:7); and Isaiah condemned 
women who wore charms (Isa 3:18-23). The multiplicity of terminology 
used in the bans testifies that magic was a pervasive problem in the 
Israelite world. However, many of the banned terms (primarily in Deut 
18:10-11) have defied easy explanation, including child sacrifice 
(possibly used for divinatory purposes Deut 18:10; 2 Kings 21:6), 
types of divination (Num 23:23; Deut 18:10-11; 1 Sam 15:23; 2 Kings 
17:17; Micah 3:6), sorceries (Exod 22:18; Deut 18:11; Jer 27:9; Micah 
5:12; Mal 3:5), and necromancy (1 Sam 28).

Magic was considered an aspect of pagan wisdom; magicians were 
counted as wise men (Psalm 58:5; Dan 1:20; 2:13) and officials of 
foreign governments (Gen 41:6; Exod 7:11; Dan 2:2). Different from 
pagan sources, the Old Testament writers did not see a connection 
between magic and the gods. Foreign magicians in Scripture did not 
invoke help of their gods for magical formulas, but often called upon 
self-operating forces that were independent of the gods (Isa 47:13; 
the monotheistic Israelites did not accept the existence of the 
foreign gods ). Moreover, the biblical writers seemed to attribute a 
reality to magical power that it did not ascribe to the gods. Magic 
was considered human rebellion that unlocked divine secrets, making 
humanity equal with God.

Although there was a formal ban on magic, Israelite religion appeared 
on the surface to have adopted some Canaanite magical practices. 
There are many references scattered throughout the Old Testament to 
various imitative magical practices, including the use of clothing (2 
Kings 2:13-14), magic staffs (Exod 7:9), hands (2 Kings 5:11), 
mandrakes (Gen 30:14-18), instruments (2 Kings 6:7), hair (Judges 
16:17), whispering (2 Sam 12:19), spells (Joshua 10:12), belomancy (1 
Sam 20:20-22), hydromancy (Exod 15:25), and various blessings, 
curses, and dreams. Old Testament ceremonial regulations appear to 
have had a magical flavor to them. Animals for sacrifice had to be 
the proper age, sex, and color; many were probably not used because 
they were utilized in the magic arts of the Canaanites (Deut 14:21).
However, foreign materials and technical terms of magic were simply 
used as vehicles of expression in Israelite religion. The magical 
features preserved ancient elements whose original meaning had been 
radically altered. The writers stripped the magical actions of their 
autonomous power and made them serve as vehicles of God's will. 
Yahweh's name was invoked by the miracle worker (Exod 7:8-9; 15:25; 1 
Kings 17:21; 2 Kings 2:14). Miracles were merely signs validating the 
mission of the prophet, who did not work by his skill but by the 
power of Yahweh (Exod 3:14-17; Deut 13:2-3; Judges 6:17, 36; 1 Kings 
18:36; Isa 7:10-11). The writers took great pains to show that Moses 
was helpless without God (Exod 4:10; 6:12, 30). Even Balaam, both a 
magician and prophet, could only do God's will (Num 23:12). God could 
overturn a curse and make it a blessing (Psalm 109:28). The man of 
God healed the sick, revealed hidden things, performed wonders, and 
pronounced curses and blessings, just like a pagan magician. However, 
it was not done with any technical skill, nor were these people 
praised for any wisdom (2 Kings 5:11). All procedures were 
commonplace and untraditional.

The Israelites viewed divination as a subsidiary of magic. The 
biblical writers banned all of the foreign techniques employed for 
divinatory oracles (Lev 20:6, 27; Deut 18:10; 1 Sam 28:3; 2 Kings 
23:24; Isa 2:6; 8:19; 57:3; Ezek 13:17), including hydromancy (Gen 
44:5,15) and astrology (Isa 47:13; Jer 10:2). They were distinguished 
from inquiries of Yahweh (Urim and Thummin, Num 27:21; ephod, 1 Sam 
23:9; lots, Num 26:55; dreams, 1 Sam 28:6) on the grounds that 
divination was a custom of the nations. However, the Israelites 
believed in its power (1 Sam 28:8-20). As with magic, the biblical 
writers did not view divination as connected with the gods, but 
instead considered it a magic or wisdom art that revealed secrets of 
God in a wrong way (Isa 19:3; Ezek 21:26; Hosea 4:12). Thus, the 
divinatory technician trusted in omens and in human wisdom, rather 
than in God. Inquiry was acceptable, as long as it was only to God 
and confirmed by him (Judges 6:36; 7:4; 2 Sam 5:23). The Israelites 
preferred the simple technique of lot inquiry, addressing God and 
relying on his decision instead of going through an elaborate system 
of ritual. In sum, they did not reject divination in the strictest 
sense, but approved of the technique of inquiring of God to learn of 
his decisions.

The New Testament. Magical practices were also prevalent in the New 
Testament world. Although the New Testament writers did not 
explicitly condemn magic, none who practiced magic arts were 
described in a flattering way. There were numerous warnings against 
sorcery (Gk. pharmakos [farmakov"], one who dealt with drugs and 
potions Gal 5:20; Rev 9:21; 18:23; 21:8; 22:15).

New Testament Christians viewed magical practices like their Old 
Testament counterparts. Although Simon the magician (Gk. magos 
[mavgo"] originally a term for an Iranian priestly group, it came to 
have a technical meaning cf. Herodotus, The Histories 1.101,132; Matt 
2:1-16; Acts 13:6-8) was severely criticized by Peter (Acts 8:9-24), 
the efficacy of his power was not denied, and he was considered 
dangerous. The story of Bar-Jesus (who attempted to resist Paul and 
Barnabas Acts 13:4-12) was used by the writer to exhibit the 
differences between Christ and magic. The only other magicians 
mentioned by name were Jannes and Jambres, the Egyptian priests of 
Moses' time (2 Tim 3:6-8); these names were noted in later Jewish 
writings and even by Pliny the Elder, who thought Moses was one of 
the Egyptian magicians (Natural History 30, 1 11). These two were 
looked upon by Paul as examples of those who opposed the truth. The 
one who had a spirit of divination (Gk. pneuma python normally a 
spirit connected with the Delphic oracle Acts 16:16) was forced to 
acknowledge Jesus, but the apostles did not accept this testimony 
because of the ungodly source. The burning of books on magic arts 
(Acts 19:19-20) was seen as a sign that the word of the Lord was 
growing. Seducers (a term that probably signified a spell-binding 
magician 2 Tim 3:13) were thought by Paul to be deceived, and Paul 
claimed figuratively that the Galatians had been bewitched (Gal 3:1). 
He likely alluded to magical practices in his treatment of heresy in 
Colossians 2:8-23.

Many of the accepted practices in the New Testament (exorcisms, faith 
healing, and the use of lots Acts 1:26) could have been construed by 
the Gentiles as similar to their own rituals. In fact, there were 
some linguistic similarities between words used for exorcism and 
healing in the New Testament and pagan magical rites. The Gentiles 
saw miracles as magical in nature, and thus confused those of the 
apostles with their own magic (Acts 8:9-11). The exorcisms of Jesus 
appeared to some as magical (Matt 12:25-37; Mark 3:23-30; Luke 11:17-
20), as well as his use of saliva to heal the blind (Mark 7:33). In 
fact, some rabbinical references claimed that Jesus was a magician. 
But the New Testament writers regarded Jesus and the apostles' 
miraculous Acts as of divine origin. The healing of the woman with 
the issue of blood was done because of her faith (Matt 9:20-22; Mark 
5:25-34; Luke 9:34-38), not by magic. 

Mark W. Chavalas

See also Divination; Idols, Idolatry 

Bibliography. H. C. Brichto, The Problem of "Curse" in the Hebrew 
Bible; A. Guillaume, Prophecy and Divination Among the Hebrews and 
Other Semites; H. Huggman, The Word of the Lord Shall Go Forth:Essays 
in Honor of David Noel Freedman inCelebration of His Sixtieth 
Birthday, pp. 355-59; S. Iwry, JAOS81 (1961): 27-34; J. Lindbloom, 
VT12 (1962): 164-78; M. Unger, Biblical Demonology; R. B. Zuck, 
Bibliotheca Sacra 128 (1971): 362-60. 





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri May  4 19:46:35 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 19:46:35 -0000
Subject: HP&GoF CH. 1
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504111004.00c8e3f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9cv0ur+10eug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18157

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

> But I *still* can't figure out what intended victim V is talking about
> when he says, "Just one more death, and the path to Harry Potter
> is clear."

	It's a Flint. Other versions say, "One more curse"  Maybe JKR 
originally planned to kill Mad-Eye off.
Pippin





From particle at urbanet.ch  Fri May  4 20:12:08 2001
From: particle at urbanet.ch (Firebolt)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 22:12:08 +0200
Subject: FF: Crookshanks - failed Animagus? (Was: Re: nitpick alert: Crookshanks)
References: <9b.1475c094.28243683@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AF30D17.C4357307@urbanet.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 18158

lizscford at aol.com wrote:

> maybe crookshanks was the product of an illegal animagi transformation
>
> which/that went wrong...

There was a fanfic by Moon (still lurking?) about that, actually.
Erm...the title was...::ponders for a while:: It will probably be
quicker if you look her up on fanfiction.net, actually, and just check
the summaries.

- Firebolt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May  4 20:32:37 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 20:32:37 -0000
Subject: Cosmetics - Teenagers - Bagman - HP's age - Imperius - More
In-Reply-To: <3AF3053E.A88599A1@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9cv3l5+ma1i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18159

> Doreen wrote:
> > It just goes to show you how over-confidence breeds carelessness.
> > Stupid villains!
> > Doreen, who thinks the same can be said of teenagers :)
Catlady:
> Once upon a time, when PSYCH TODAY hadn't yet become so sleazy that 
I
> discontinued my subscription, an article reported a study that found
> that teenagers don't think they are invulnerable, do realize the 
things
> they do are dangerous, are scared while doing them, but they 
override
> their fear because of other priorities.

*****************
Doreen:
And I, who have helped raise two brothers, raised three step-
children, raised three children, and am raising yet one more child, 
say that teenagers don't think before they act. They almost never can 
answer the question, "Why?" with anything better than an, "I don't 
know." I have stopped asking, "Why?"
*****************
> Doreen asked:
> > Speaking of missing wands:
> > 1) what happened to James' wand,
> > 2) Lily's wand,
Catlady:
> I expect they were destroyed along with their home.
*********************************
Doreen:
When Sirius arrived at the Potter's house, the house was destroyed, 
but he saw the bodies. Why would the wands have been destroyed if 
their bodies were not?
*********************************
> Caatlady:
> > 4) Voldemort's wand when he lost his physical form,
> I like to think that V brought Pettigrew with him when he went to 
attack
> the Potters (in order to make sure that P was not leading him into a
> trap), and Pettigrew picked up V's fallen wand before turning into 
a rat
> and fleeing.
>******************************
Doreen:
Which makes me wonder if Voldemort, indeed, did the killing. What if 
he forced Pettigrew to do it, to show that he was really loyal to 
him, Voldemort? Pettigrew snitched on the Potters, after having been 
trusted with their secret. What would prove his loyalty more than his 
killing the Potters for Voldemort? This could also explain why the 
curse went bad, if Pettigrew was doing it with Voldemort's wand. 
*****************************
Catlady:
> > 5) the prisoners wands when they are sent to Azkaban,
> Considering that Hagrid's wand was snapped just for having been
> expelled, one would expect that the wand of anyone sentenced to life
> imprisonment would be snapped. I suppose the MoM has a locked place 
to
> keep wands of people who are being held only temporarily.
***********************
Doreen
That would explain why Sirius doesn't have a wand, wouldn't it?

Doreen
******************





From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May  4 20:58:57 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 16:58:57 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
Message-ID: <85.a9d93cc.28247211@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18160

Crouch had put a memory thingy on her whenhe knew that she'd seen his son.  
that was the charm V. broke and was how he knew that 'his faithful servent' 
was out of Azkaban

DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tigerlily at quincymail.com  Fri May  4 21:05:54 2001
From: tigerlily at quincymail.com (tigerlily at quincymail.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 21:05:54 -0000
Subject: Snape the spy
In-Reply-To: <9cum9q+9h4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cv5ji+f5oi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18161

> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
> wrote:
 I got it.  It just came to me. It's so simple it's perfect. Of 
course.  There's no other explanation. The task Snape is sent on at 
the end of GoF is this: he is to brew up a batch of Polyjuice Potion 
and then transform himself into Harry as a decoy for Voldemort.
What if he made up a batch of potion using hair from the soul 
sucked 
> > Barty Crouch Jnr and then went to see Voldemort posing at his 
most 
> > loyal servant.
> 
> The problem is that very little time elapses between when they 
found 
> out that Barty Crouch has been sucked soul-less and when Dumbledore 
> says to Snape "You know what you have to do."  Whatever it is, it 
has 
> to be something they have planned out in advance.  I have been 
> puzzling over this for months and I can not come up with a theory 
> that fits all the circumstances.
> 
> --Joywitch


I always assumed Snape would take up his previous job: a spy.  He 
could go back to Voldemort, claim he was "biding his time, waiting 
for a sign of Voldemort's return" as Malfoy did.

Of course, this would present a few problems.  He would have to 
explain why he was against Quirrel, why he didn't kill Harry, etc.  

Another thing that I've been wondering about.  Someone said in one 
book that "Dumbledore had a number of useful spies, and one of them 
tipped him off that Voldemort was after the Potter," or something 
along those lines.  

Wouldn't it be interesting if that spy were Snape?  That would have 
been quite a moral delema for him... Almost like Malfoy saving Harry.

Any thoughts?

*Lily Solstar






From bohners at pobox.com  Fri May  4 21:33:26 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:33:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sexy Sirius 
References: <3AF2403C.C76E2D4B@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <020e01c0d4e1$e1a39c60$2998e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18162

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

> > The question I have is, why wasn't there an uproar from the
> > Witch community when *Sirius* was imprisoned the way
> > there was for Bagman?

> Wizarding society seems very old-fashioned. No doubt it's the kind of
> culture in which pretty young witches wouldn't want their husbands or
> boyfriends to ever find out that the best sex they ever had was a
> quickie, in a cloakroom or something, with a prominent Death Eater.

Do we have any canonical evidence at all for Sirius cutting a swath through
the girls at Hogwarts, let alone the whole wizarding (or witching) world?  I
may be short on memory here, but I don't recall anything being said about
his romantic history one way or the other.  Agreed that he *is* an
attractive character to many readers and that JKR has cheerfully confirmed
he's "dead sexy", but that still doesn't actually tell us how he's regarded
by the female characters in the books.

Can we put some sort of "fanon only" or "in my personal universe" notice on
these kinds of speculations?
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From maggiemcgreggor at hotmail.com  Fri May  4 21:50:36 2001
From: maggiemcgreggor at hotmail.com (Maggie)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 21:50:36 -0000
Subject: Snape the spy
In-Reply-To: <9cv5ji+f5oi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cv87c+m0u7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18164

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tigerlily at q... wrote:
> I always assumed Snape would take up his previous job: a spy.  He 
> could go back to Voldemort, claim he was "biding his time, waiting 
> for a sign of Voldemort's return" as Malfoy did.
>
> Of course, this would present a few problems.  He would have to 
> explain why he was against Quirrel, why he didn't kill Harry, etc.  

  I have an idea for the Harry bit: In PoA, Sirius says about 
Wormtail "You weren't about to commit murder right under Albus 
Dumbeldore's nose, for a wreck of a wizard who'd lost all of his 
powers, were you?"
  This could apply to Snape: you'd have to be incredibly stupid to 
kill The Boy Who Lived almost right in front of Dumbledore. 
  As for Quirrel, IMO, Snape didn't kill him because he knew that 
Voldemort was using Quirrel as a host. Easy enough for Snape to 
explain that to Voldemort

> Another thing that I've been wondering about.  Someone said in one 
> book that "Dumbledore had a number of useful spies, and one of them 
> tipped him off that Voldemort was after the Potter," or something 
> along those lines.  
 
  It's quite likely that Snape was the spy, I think. Who else would 
be able to hear Voldemort's plan to get the Potters and alert 
Dumbledore without having Dumbledore discredit the information 
because the source wasn't reliable? Would you trust a Death Eater, 
after all? Thought I wonder...what did Snape really do to get 
Dumbledore to trust him so much? (If this was explored somewhere in 
the list, someone let me know. It's been bothering me for some time) 

Oh, and Fudge said "Dumbledore...had a number of useful spies. One of 
them tipped him off and he alerted James and Lily at once." durring 
the scene at the Three Broomsticks in PoA. (Handy thing, to have my 
books within reach!)
  
> Wouldn't it be interesting if that spy were Snape?  That would have 
> been quite a moral delema for him... Almost like Malfoy saving 
Harry.

  Ooooh, fun idea! I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen sometime 
in the next books...Malfoy (on accident, perhaps?) saving Harry's 
life, or vise versa? Potter saving Malfoy? Eerie, considering that 
James saved Snape that one time, and if Snape was the spy, he tried 
to save James by telling Dumbledore...

Maggie
http://www.stormpages.com/morsmorde
Ten points to someone who knows what 'morsmorde' is!

BTW, I'm new here (first post!) and I'm nearly sixteen, living in 
Midwestern USA and I am 112% obsessed with Harry Potter (I took the 
test...sad, isn't it?)






From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Fri May  4 21:53:48 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 21:53:48 -0000
Subject: Snape the spy
In-Reply-To: <9cv5ji+f5oi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cv8dc+jdmr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18165

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tigerlily at q... wrote:
> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
> > wrote:
>  I got it.  It just came to me. It's so simple it's perfect. Of 
> course.  There's no other explanation. The task Snape is sent on at 
> the end of GoF is this: he is to brew up a batch of Polyjuice 
Potion 
> and then transform himself into Harry as a decoy for Voldemort.
> > 
> > --Joywitch
 
Oh, I love that thought! It's very logical and I've always got this 
feeling that he's doing something a lot more difficult than just 
spying. Besides- far too many things are against his ability to spy. 
Everyone in the crowd of DE's *must* know by now that he's the 
traitor and it would just be silly to send him back in there again. 
Silly and very suicidal of him to accept! 
 

> *Lily Solstar wrote:

> Another thing that I've been wondering about.  Someone said in one 
> book that "Dumbledore had a number of useful spies, and one of them 
> tipped him off that Voldemort was after the Potter," or something 
> along those lines.  
> 
> Wouldn't it be interesting if that spy were Snape?  That would have 
> been quite a moral delema for him... Almost like Malfoy saving 
Harry.
Yes, it would be thrilling!
I've thought that all the time. And I've been extremely curious to 
find out who else Dumbledore counted as his spies...
Another theory I find possible is that Snape is doing something to 
protect Harry *and* himself at the same time. If Harry needs a Secret-
Keeper for instance, Snape would be the best. In that case Voldemort 
will not kill him since he wants to find Harry and both of them are 
safe. The problem in that theory is that Voldie already must know 
where HArry is- it can't be that hard to figure out he's at Hogwarts!

Love and Sunshine,

Lilith M







From maggiemcgreggor at hotmail.com  Fri May  4 21:56:40 2001
From: maggiemcgreggor at hotmail.com (Maggie)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 21:56:40 -0000
Subject: boggart
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F06@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9cv8io+lc7f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18166

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> But Lupin said that Muggles can't see Dementors, although they can 
sense their presence, so would they see anything? Or would they just 
open the door and get very depressed all of a sudden. 

The way most of us get when there's a UPS guy at the door and the box 
isn't for you? ^_^ Actually, I think that might be the most obvious 
answer...unless (and I'm just pulling this from thin air here!) 
dementors can make themselves known to Muggles by some sort of their 
own magic, perhaps? 

And what would Dumbledore see if he were faced with a boggart? 
Perhaps a dead Harry? Or a triumphant Voldemort? Or maybe just 
himself with no socks. 

Maggie
http://www.stormpages.com/morsmorde
Ten points to anyone who knows what 'morsmorde' means!




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 22:18:41 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 22:18:41 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9cunq6+b7hp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cv9s1+u5sn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18168

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Andrea" <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:

> That's certainly what Harry thinks!  We have to draw a distinction 
> between what *Harry* thinks all of this means, and what we can see 
it 
> means with the knowledge that Quirrell was after the Stone all 
along. 
>  Snape's words can be taken with both meanings.

I still believe Snape is trying to intimidate Quirrell into giving 
him the information he wants.

 
> 
> Again, that's what *Harry* thinks.  All we hear Snape say 
is "...your 
> little bit of hocus pocus."  Harry (and we, on first reading) 
assume 
> that he's trying to find out how to get past Quirrell's 
protection.  
> But Snape could just as easily have been saying, "And don't think 
on 
> the Quiddich field just now I didn't notice your little bit of 
> hocus-pocus" or something along those lines.


I thought you meant that Snape wanted to know what Quirrell had done 
and that just didn't make sense.  My mistake!  Yes, Snape could very 
well be saying, "Enough of all that hocus-pocus stuff."  But I think 
there is a reason why it is at this moment that JKR has Harry almost 
falling out of the tree. We don't actually know even now what Snape 
was saying to Quirrell.


Koinonia asked:    
 How does Snape know HH & R know about the stone?

Adrea replied:
 
> He doesn't.  That line is in explanation for why he's talking to 
> Quirrell in the Forbidden Forest, where students aren't allowed.  
Less 
> chance of a student, who isn't supposed to know about the PS, 
> stumbling across them.  Dang Harry! [g]

Ahhh......I am going to disagree with you here!  I think Snape does 
know.  I think he is making a statement here.  

*Potions lessons were turning into a sort of weekly torture, Snape 
was so horrible to Harry.  Could Snape possibly know they'd found out 
about the Philosopher's Stone?  Harry didn't see how he could - yet 
he sometimes had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds.*


*Oh, I thought we'd keep this private,' said Snape, his voice 
icy.  'Students aren't supposed to know about the Philosopher's 
Stone, after all.

Both of these are in the Nicolas Flamel chapter.

See, I think Snape has some type of mind reading abilities.  It is 
hinted at several times in the books.  There are times when Harry 
gets the impression Snape can read his mind but then always comes up 
with an explanation. Or so Harry thinks.  Just another theory ;) 

Koinonia  

   





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 22:43:01 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 22:43:01 -0000
Subject: Biblical Magic (long)&short
In-Reply-To: <9cv0n5+54e8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvb9l+ohel@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18169

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:

> I think the following article gives a good balanced discussion of 
> magic as depicted in Scripture.  Although the Bible's portrayal is 
> largely one of condemnation, it is not exclusively so.

I think the Bible is very clear when it comes to *powers* that do not 
come from God.


 
> And no where does it take a stand on fictional accounts of 
imaginary 
> wizards.
> 
>     - CMC


I don't have a problem with imaginary witches or wizards.  I think 
the problem some people have with the HP books (and other books) is 
that they feel very young kids can become interested in the *real* 
world of witchcraft.  And that is a different story!

Koinonia

An evangelical :)




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 22:46:41 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 22:46:41 -0000
Subject: Snape the spy
In-Reply-To: <9cv87c+m0u7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvbgh+rdo6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18170

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Maggie" <maggiemcgreggor at h...> wrote:

(If this was explored somewhere in 
> the list, someone let me know. It's been bothering me for some 
time) 

Yes, it has been discussed before but one can never discuss Snape 
enough!  Actually, there was a discussion on polyjuice and what 
Snape's job was within the last month (I think).  There were many 
different ideas that you would probably enjoy.  

Koinonia





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 22:58:26 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 22:58:26 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS & Voldemort's Defeat
In-Reply-To: <9cuead+alk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvc6i+jbkl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18171

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:

Perhaps each meeting of Harry and Voldemort at 
> Voldemort's various stages of weakness, are all part of a master 
> plan. Each time that Harry meets Voldemort, the idea being that he 
is 
> to learn more about Voldemort, and Harry is to gain confidence in 
> beating him each time. Thus, when Voldemort reaches his full 
strength 
> and returns, Harry and only Harry, will be able to defeat him.


I think that's very, very possible.  It could all be part of a plan.  
> 
> I think the reason that Harry does not defeat him in the first two 
> meetings is that Voldemort can not be destroyed totally, in his 
> present states at those meetings.

I agree.  Voldy couldn't be defeated as he was.  Now it appears 
things have changed.  

 
> In the end, I think that Ron will most certainly either be killed 
or 
> gravely wounded, 

I do believe Ron might not last to the end.  I base that on some 
clues in the book that someone else pointed out to me.  Of course, I 
would rather my friend be wrong and have Ron survive.

Koinonia




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 23:12:40 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 23:12:40 -0000
Subject: HP Conference Possible
Message-ID: <9cvd18+kb62@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18172

(Please note the new poll in the "polls" area of the list, even if 
you don't want to fill out this survey, please respond to the the 
poll via the left-hand toll bar.)  

Having read the well researched (and intellectually stimulating) 
posts that appear on HPFGU on a daily basis, I've begun to suspect 
that a great number of us are academics or graduate students.  This 
has piqued my interest about scholarly material on HP (or the 
potential thereof), and so I've also done a few quick searches and 
found a handful of scholarly articles that have been written on the 
Harry Potter series.

This makes me think that we really need to take the traditional next 
step in scholarship:  WE GOTTA HAVE A CONFERENCE.  And, since I'm 
completely mad, I'm willing to make an attempt at organizing one at 
the small college where my husband and I teach.  (http://www.lmc.edu )

However, I will issue a caveat about my idea:  This would be a 
serious (no pun intended) interdisciplinary scholarly conference, and 
in no way a fan convention.  While interested people outside academe 
would certainly be welcome, this conference would take the form of a 
traditional academic conference ? papers, panels, plenary sessions, 
etc.

Of course, I would have to convince my Dean first, and in order to do 
so I need to be able to show proof that there are plenty of academics 
out there with enough scholarly interest in HP to make a conference 
possible.  Hence, our most gracious moderators  have granted me 
permission to conduct a little poll to get the statistics I need to 
persuade my Dean (if I could just get that Imperious Curse to work
) 
that there is a market for an HP conference.

If you are so inclined, please reply to the following questions at 
the address: HPconference at yahoo.com.  DO NOT reply to the list (else, 
Neil might curse me).  What I need to know is:

1. What is your academic profession and area of focus?
2. Would you be interested in attending an interdisciplinary academic 
conference on the Harry Potter series?
3. Where are you (you may be vague and provide only the region, e.g. 
U.S. Pacific North-West)?
4. Do you already have an HP topic for a paper, etc. in mind?  
Remember, this would be an interdisciplinary conference, so it could 
be anything from Lit Crit to pop culture studies to mythology to 
Classics to History to the publishing business end of things.
5. Any other comments are welcome.

Please feel free to forward this post to any of your colleagues whom 
you think may be interested and who may not be on the list.  Again, 
DO NOT reply to the list, but instead reply to HPconference at yahoo.com 

Thanks everybody,

Stephanie





From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 23:34:18 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 23:34:18 -0000
Subject: Wands -- Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <B7189E31.3E21%finnan@kvvi.net>
Message-ID: <9cve9q+1vu0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18173

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vikki <finnan at k...> wrote:
> Are wands easily destroyed? Sure, they can be snapped and Ron's wand 
has a
> chip in it but you carry your wands around all the time.  If a wand 
choses a
> wizard, doesn't that imply that there is only one wand to choose a 
wizard?
> Obviously wands wear out or break, or people are sentenced to 
Azkaban etc..
> so is each wand that a wizard has just as good?  Or do they only 
have one
> wand (eg.. Tom Riddle)

I would imagine that wands are fairly durable, but *can* be broken or 
destroyed.  Anything that would reduce the entire house to rubble 
would probably also break the wands.  

As for the "one wand per wizard", in PS/SS Ron says that he's got 
Charlie's old wand.  Since we know Charlie isn't dead, wizards clearly 
*can* have more than one wand.  But certain ones suit them better than 
others.



Andrea




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Fri May  4 23:48:43 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 23:48:43 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9cv9s1+u5sn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvf4r+7ugb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18174

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> I still believe Snape is trying to intimidate Quirrell into giving 
> him the information he wants.

[shrug] There are many different interpretations to a lot of things in 
these books.  We can read it several different ways, and maybe never 
know what was intended by JKR!  And I agree that Snape's trying to get 
information, just not in the way that we thought when we thought it 
was Snape after the Stone.  He's trying to figure out how much 
Quirrell knows and what he's doing with it.

> I thought you meant that Snape wanted to know what Quirrell had done 
> and that just didn't make sense.  My mistake!  Yes, Snape could very 
> well be saying, "Enough of all that hocus-pocus stuff."  But I think 
> there is a reason why it is at this moment that JKR has Harry almost 
> falling out of the tree. We don't actually know even now what Snape 
> was saying to Quirrell.

Well, if we heard the whole thing we probably could've figured out it 
was Quirrell after the Stone, not Snape, and it would be a short book. 
<g>

> Ahhh......I am going to disagree with you here!  I think Snape does 
> know.  I think he is making a statement here.  
[snip quotes]
> See, I think Snape has some type of mind reading abilities.  It is 
> hinted at several times in the books.  There are times when Harry 
> gets the impression Snape can read his mind but then always comes up 
> with an explanation. Or so Harry thinks.  Just another theory ;) 

Well, I have to disagree.  I think the bit about Snape's mind-reading 
is just Harry getting more and more upset and nervous about the big 
Quiddich match and the Stone mess.  As far as Snape's behavior 
(getting harder on Harry in class), consider this - this happens right 
after they've discovered that Snape is going to be refereeing the 
Quiddich match.  We later discover this was to protect Harry.  Snape 
*hates* Harry, yet is going to protect him.  He isn't real happy about 
this, so I imagine he's taking it out on Harry during class.

Looking back at the Forbidden Forest conversation, Quirrell starts out 
with, "Don't know why you wanted to meet here of all places, Severus." 
 To which Snape replies, "Oh, I thought we'd keep this 
private...Students aren't supposed to know about the Sorceror's Stone, 
after all."  It seems pretty clear to me that Snape is trying to keep 
away from eavesdroppers, since students aren't allowed in the FF.


Andrea




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 00:05:25 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 00:05:25 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9cvf4r+7ugb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvg45+2nr4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18175

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Andrea" <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> > I still believe Snape is trying to intimidate Quirrell into giving 
> > him the information he wants.
> 
> [shrug] There are many different interpretations to a lot of things 
in 
> these books.  We can read it several different ways, and maybe never 
> know what was intended by JKR!  And I agree that Snape's trying to 
get 
> information, just not in the way that we thought when we thought it 
> was Snape after the Stone.  He's trying to figure out how much 
> Quirrell knows and what he's doing with it.
> 
> > I thought you meant that Snape wanted to know what Quirrell had 
done 
> > and that just didn't make sense.  My mistake!  Yes, Snape could 
very 
> > well be saying, "Enough of all that hocus-pocus stuff."  But I 
think 
> > there is a reason why it is at this moment that JKR has Harry 
almost 
> > falling out of the tree. We don't actually know even now what 
Snape 
> > was saying to Quirrell.
> 
> Well, if we heard the whole thing we probably could've figured out 
it 
> was Quirrell after the Stone, not Snape, and it would be a short 
book. 
> <g>
> 
> > Ahhh......I am going to disagree with you here!  I think Snape 
does 
> > know.  I think he is making a statement here.  
> [snip quotes]
> > See, I think Snape has some type of mind reading abilities.  It is 
> > hinted at several times in the books.  There are times when Harry 
> > gets the impression Snape can read his mind but then always comes 
up 
> > with an explanation. Or so Harry thinks.  Just another theory ;) 
> 
> Well, I have to disagree.  I think the bit about Snape's 
mind-reading 
> is just Harry getting more and more upset and nervous about the big 
> Quiddich match and the Stone mess.  As far as Snape's behavior 
> (getting harder on Harry in class), consider this - this happens 
right 
> after they've discovered that Snape is going to be refereeing the 
> Quiddich match.  We later discover this was to protect Harry.  Snape 
> *hates* Harry, yet is going to protect him.  He isn't real happy 
about 
> this, so I imagine he's taking it out on Harry during class.
> 
> Looking back at the Forbidden Forest conversation, Quirrell starts 
out 
> with, "Don't know why you wanted to meet here of all places, 
Severus." 
>  To which Snape replies, "Oh, I thought we'd keep this 
> private...Students aren't supposed to know about the Sorceror's 
Stone, 
> after all."  It seems pretty clear to me that Snape is trying to 
keep 
> away from eavesdroppers, since students aren't allowed in the FF.
> 
> 
> Andrea

As I hear further opinions on the question I raised, I continue to 
find your analysis explains the conversation best.  Could you now 
address the level of Voldemorts's knowledge about Snape that has come 
from all these conversations with Quirrel?

Haggridd




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May  5 00:16:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 00:16:34 -0000
Subject: boggart
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F06@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9cvgp2+5m57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18176

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> I forget exactly who wrote: 
> > <Imagine Petunia or Dudley's reaction if they opened the
> > front door and saw a dementor there>
> 
> But Lupin said that Muggles can't see Dementors, although they can 
sense
> their presence, so would they see anything? Or would they just open 
the door
> and get very depressed all of a sudden. 

They might be able to see Boggarts.  Boggarts are a part of Muggle 
legend, explained away (as are Redcaps, Grindylows, fairies, etc.) as 
mere legend, but possibly perfectly visible to those who happen to 
run into them, though most dismiss the experience as the product of 
too much booze or such . . . FB deals with this nicely.

But if Muggles can't see Boggarts, how's this:  Dementors, though 
invisible to Muggles, cause them to feel hopeless, sad, and haunted 
by terrible memories (i.e., in DSM-IV lingo, depressed).  Boggarts, 
by the same token, cause Muggles to feel unaccountably afraid (i.e., 
again in DSM-IV lingo, anxious).

I like the thought that Boggarts are the cause of panic attacks in 
Muggles.

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May  5 00:27:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 00:27:30 -0000
Subject: "one more death"
In-Reply-To: <9cusf0+2i68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvhdi+kfk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18177

Doreen wondered:

> > But I *still* can't figure out what intended victim V is talking 
> about
> > when he says, "Just one more death, and the path to Harry Potter
> > is clear."

Dave suggested:

> I am fairly sure that he was talking about Barty Crouch Sr.'s 
> death. That was the next death. Cedric came after that, but he 
> was "the spare" and unexpected.
> 
> Barty Crouch Sr.'s death would have been deemed necessary to keep 
the 
> secret of Barty Crouch Jr. going until the Tournament was finished 
> and Harry was delivered to Voldemort.

Then why do they let him live for all those months?  The only reason 
they kill him when they do is that he's escaped. 

We talked about this once before, and someone said the UK version 
doesn't have this line.  It says "one more curse" or something like 
that (can't check; my books are 60 miles away and I seem to have 
developed something of a block about Summoning Charms).  That also 
seems odd, know that I think of it, since at that point he knows he's 
going to keep both Moody and Crouch Sr. under the Imperius; they're 
part of the same plan.  But I suppose he might refer to that as "one 
more curse" even though it's two people.

Amy Z




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat May  5 00:34:05 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 00:34:05 -0000
Subject: boggart
In-Reply-To: <9cvgp2+5m57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvhpt+kmjb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18178

Hmmm... I thought Dudley's boggart might be an empty plate or a fridge 
filled with celery and carrot sticks.

Uncle Vernon's boggart could be himself in the Weasley's "varying 
states of shabbiness" robes.

Aunt Petunia? An isolated house with no neighbors to spy on?

I think Albus Dumbledore's boggart might be Hogwarts empty of 
students.  Definitely something related to his commitment to Hogwarts.  
I like the socks idea, though.

As for Dementors, there are a lot of manically depressed people out 
there (Muggles, I mean).  I would imagine that the Dementors just 
invisibly follow those people around.  Come to think of it, I think 
I've been stalked by a Dementor or two when I've been rather down.  
That would explain everything.  

I wonder what Patronus (how would I pluralize that word?) the Dursleys 
would conjure up.

--jenny from ravenclaw***************************************




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 00:35:14 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 00:35:14 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9cvg45+2nr4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvhs2+qkkn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18179

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> As I hear further opinions on the question I raised, I continue to 
> find your analysis explains the conversation best.  Could you now 
> address the level of Voldemorts's knowledge about Snape that has 
come 
> from all these conversations with Quirrel?

Gosh, you're going to give me a big head. [g] Voldemort's knowledge of 
Snape is very tricky to explain.  I don't think that there's any 
indication that Snape knew Voldemort was behind Quirrell's actions.  
Since Snape didn't know that, there'd be no reason for him to help 
Quirrell. There's nothing Voldemort says, either at the end of PS/SS 
or elsewhere in the books, that would indicate he thought Snape was 
working against him regarding the Stone.  I can't really make a 
judgment yet.  Sorry. :)


Andrea




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May  5 00:55:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 00:55:53 -0000
Subject: Wands - Moon (FF) - Harry v. V. - underage magic - Bagman - Sirius
Message-ID: <9cvj2p+ggn0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18180

Belle wrote (welcome, Belle!):

>I've seen wands with 3 types of cores -- unicorn hair, phoenix 
>feather and dragon >heartstring. Has anything been written about 
>what magical properties each of these >carry?

Not that I know of-?care to have a go?

There's one other core we've heard of, but I won't say what it is 
because I'm not sure from your post whether you've read Goblet of 
Fire yet.

Re: Neville's wand, sure he has one.  He raises it in the Boggart 
lesson.  We just never learn anything about it, but the same is true 
of Dean, Seamus, and for that matter, Hermione.

Re: Sirius's wand, he might have one by GF (when do we have occasion 
to see him use one or wish for one?) but I did wonder why he didn't 
get one as soon as he escaped from Azkaban.  In PA he has to use 
Snape's.

Rosmerta wrote:

>I have the perfect solution to these seeming discrepancies: Lupin's 
>secretly a >WOMAN!

LOL!  "Not at all up to your usual standard, Hermione. Only two out 
of three, I'm afraid.  I haven't been helping Sirius get into the 
castle, and I certainly don't want Harry dead.  But I won't deny that 
I =am= a woman."

>Rosmerta, who's trying to imagine all the the slash possibilities 
this revelation might >inspire 

Answer: zero.  IMO, the only reason Lupin's put into slashfics so 
often is that he's a man?-if he were a woman, his fanfic appearances 
would plummet.

Doreen wrote:

>I doubt that either Snape nor Dumbledore know that Voldemort is with 
Quirrel, or else >they would never have lured Quirrel to the stone. 
Or would they? Perhaps each >meeting of Harry and Voldemort at 
Voldemort's various stages of weakness, are all >part of a master 
plan. 

I don't know about the master plan, but Harry thinks Dumbledore knew 
about Voldemort by the time of the confrontation.  When R & H visit 
him in the hospital wing he says (paraphrase), "It's as if he thought 
I had a right to face Voldemort if I could."

Doreen:

> I realize that Voldemort did kill Harry's parents and deprive him 
of a normal life with >these parents, but I don't think this, alone, 
is enough to enrage him to rise up against >Voldemort. 

Yeah.  It wasn't enough to make him kill Sirius, or even allow S & R 
to kill Peter.

Doreen, I'm not going to speak to you anymore if you keep 
traumatizing me with lines like "Ron will most certainly either be 
killed or gravely wounded."  OK, gravely wounded I can handle.  And 
Catherine, if JKR kills Sirius I may have to sue her for emotional 
damage.  I know Harry is going to endure more losses, but losing 
Sirius would be possibly the worst?-like losing another parent.  (I 
know that in the logic of plotting, if Sirius lives it's all the more 
likely that Lupin will die, but it's a chance I'm willing to take for 
Harry's sake [she says, tearing up her reality check once and for 
all].  If one of them has to die, I'm afraid it ought to be RL.)

Jen(fold) asked re: Voldy's murders of his father & grandparents:

> Was there actually a law about underage magic during the school 
holidays at that >time? 

Yes, the law dates back to the 19th century (don't have my books, but 
it's in the owl Harry gets when Dobby smashes the pudding in CS).  
But it's a bit beside the point with Voldemort, isn't it?  I mean, 
the guy's been siccing a basilisk on his fellow students, and his 
violation of the underage magic law isn't hexing his little sister or 
whatever type thing F&G might get up to?it's triple murder.  Somehow, 
I don't think a little thing like the underage magic rule is much on 
his mind.  (Can't you see someone like Crouch getting all het up 
about the fact that he's violated the law against underage magic and 
completely ignoring the murder charges, though?  I once taught with a 
guy like that, who didn't discipline a student because "kneeing 
another student in the groin" wasn't specifically outlawed by the 
school rules
)

David wrote (welcome, David!):

>No, don't apologise - you have raised the question, what *else* did 
Voldemort get out >of her memory, for example, about her current 
boss, Ludo Bagman, or about Fudge? 

Wow, great thought.  

David again:

>IIRC, Rita Skeeta mentions something in Hogsmeade to Harry about LB, 
and clearly >doesn't know about his involvement with the goblins, so 
perhaps knows about >something else. 

She might just mean his past indictment as a DE?though I have 
wondered whether she knew more than we saw in the Pensieve, e.g. 
whether she knows that he really was a DE.  She seems a tad vehement 
about him if he's merely a dupe who never did anything wrong.  I also 
think Winky may know more about him than that Crouch Sr. didn't like 
him, even allowing for the fact that we know Crouch probably never 
stopped believing LB was a DE and has probably hated him with an even 
more intense passion since LB got into the Ministry.

And David again:

>Does he disappear at the end because V has blackmailed/recruited 
him? 

I really do wonder if LB is a double red herring and will prove to be 
a very deadly person.

Rebecca wrote:

> Do we have any canonical evidence at all for Sirius cutting a swath 
through the girls > at Hogwarts, let alone the whole wizarding (or 
witching) world? 

I'm not a big fan of this staple of fanfic, myself.  Maybe that's 
because I like Sirius and I do not tend to like men who sleep around.

Amy Z





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May  5 01:13:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 01:13:33 -0000
Subject: Picture of Elizabeth Grace
Message-ID: <9cvk3t+jmso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18181

This is not on-topic and I know it, and I will have to shut my ears 
in the oven door after posting this, but I must direct everyone to 
the picture Penny just uploaded of her greatly-anticipated-by-this-
list daughter.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%
20Members/Elizabeth.jpg

Congratulations, Penny and Bryce!

And welcome, Elizabeth, newest HP fan!

Amy Z




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 01:24:22 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 01:24:22 -0000
Subject: Cosmetics - Teenagers - Bagman - HP's age - Imperius - More
In-Reply-To: <9cv3l5+ma1i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvko6+pjbc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18182

> Doreen:
> And I, who have helped raise two brothers, raised three step-
> children, raised three children, and am raising yet one more child, 
> say that teenagers don't think before they act. They almost never 
can 
> answer the question, "Why?" with anything better than an, "I don't 
> know." I have stopped asking, "Why?"

It's all our hormones. I have responded to many many questions with "I 
don't know." Sometimes I get a strange feeling of impetuousness within 
me, and I don't know why, but I plunge on in my conversation. Then the 
question- "Why?" Uh..... "I dun know?"

> *********************************
> Doreen:
> When Sirius arrived at the Potter's house, the house was destroyed, 
> but he saw the bodies. Why would the wands have been destroyed if 
> their bodies were not?
> *********************************

Maybe wands self-destruct when their owners die? Maybe there is a 
connection between wand and owner, so that, when the owner dies, the 
wand 'dies' too? I haven't checked this, so somebody should correct me 
if evidence to the contrary pops up?

- Celeste




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 02:12:51 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 02:12:51 -0000
Subject: Picture of Elizabeth Grace-- Ooooohhhh!! *smile*
In-Reply-To: <9cvk3t+jmso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvnj3+hiag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18183

Ohhhh!!! She's precious!! What a beautiful baby! Such a wise face!

Sending many kisses to Penny and Bryce,

Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> This is not on-topic and I know it, and I will have to shut my ears 
> in the oven door after posting this, but I must direct everyone to 
> the picture Penny just uploaded of her greatly-anticipated-by-this-
> list daughter.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%
> 20Members/Elizabeth.jpg
> 
> Congratulations, Penny and Bryce!
> 
> And welcome, Elizabeth, newest HP fan!
> 
> Amy Z




From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 02:41:52 2001
From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 02:41:52 -0000
Subject: Wands / cores
In-Reply-To: <9cvj2p+ggn0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvp9g+5h73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18184

Amy

Yes, I've read all 4 -- and all since the end of February! I'm a late-
comer. So it's just that I don't remember what the 4th core is from 
GOF. What was it?

Belle

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Belle wrote (welcome, Belle!):
> 
> >I've seen wands with 3 types of cores -- unicorn hair, phoenix 
> >feather and dragon >heartstring. Has anything been written about 
> >what magical properties each of these >carry?
> 
> Not that I know of-?care to have a go?
> 
> There's one other core we've heard of, but I won't say what it is 
> because I'm not sure from your post whether you've read Goblet of 
> Fire yet.





From editor at texas.net  Sat May  5 02:42:31 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 21:42:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands / cores
References: <9cvp9g+5h73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF36896.34208B6A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18185

Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Yes, I've read all 4 -- and all since the end of February! I'm a
> late-comer. So it's just that I don't remember what the 4th core is
> from GOF. What was it?

Veela hair. The core of Fleur's wand is a hair from the head of her
grandmother, who is a veela. Ollivander doesn't use veela hair, but it
clearly works. I'm betting other stuff works as cores, too, that we just
haven't heard of yet.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 02:46:57 2001
From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 02:46:57 -0000
Subject: Wands / cores -- DOH!
In-Reply-To: <3AF36896.34208B6A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cvpj1+5h9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18186

DOH! I remember that now.
But I still don't know what are the magical properties of each core, 
and what type of wood symbolizes what (other than the ones on the 
Names Entymology board).



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I've read all 4 -- and all since the end of February! I'm a
> > late-comer. So it's just that I don't remember what the 4th core 
is
> > from GOF. What was it?
> 
> Veela hair. The core of Fleur's wand is a hair from the head of her
> grandmother, who is a veela. Ollivander doesn't use veela hair, but 
it
> clearly works. I'm betting other stuff works as cores, too, that we 
just
> haven't heard of yet.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May  5 03:11:02 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 03:11:02 -0000
Subject: underage magic, fifty years ago
In-Reply-To: <9culvt+pbb9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9cvr06+9h89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18187

Steve wrote:
"If he was underage, and if there was a law at that time, I don't 
think we can judge the enforcement procedures for that law by what we 
see happen to Harry. The law seems to me to be practically 
unenforceable -- how do they know that the spell-caster was the 
underage person at that address, for example? More than likely, mom 
or dad do the enforcing. In Harry's case, however, the Ministry is 
monitoring VERY closely. They want him protected from Voldemort and 
his supporters and they know that an instance of magic in a Potter-
related place where no magic should be would be a dead give away. I 
think that part of the protections set up by Dumbledore involve close 
monitoring of Harry's actions when he's away from school, and that 
includes magic use."

--I think it could be likened to laws requiring kids to wear bicycle 
helments, it's not always observered and can't be enforced so it's 
often broken. As we see at the QWC there are many kids that do magic, 
but they do use Dad's wand (right?) so one regulation for underage 
magic might be that they can't get a wand until starting Hogwarts, 
after that though...

Harry is indeed a special case, and I'd think that the MoM had set up 
either a "magic detector" to make sure that Harry didn't do any magic 
or (and IMO more likely) to make sure no one did any magic to Harry.

Scott





From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 04:10:29 2001
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:10:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scar - Time-turning - Moon - Thigh boots - Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <9cmh3m+11a3j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010505041029.11607.qmail@web3705.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18188



> 
> Dave pondered:
> 
> > What I don't get is that if the MoM ever had any
> doubts about
> > who was really on V's side and who wasn't, why
> didn't they
> > just look at their arm?
> 
> I think it is invisible most of the time.  V may be
> an Unhinged Evil 
> Overlord, but tattooing members of a secret society
> is dumber than 
> dumb.  
> 
> Counterevidence: Karkaroff's distress suggests that
> it was visible 
> when Voldemort was powerful, faded after his
> downfall, and is only now 
> becoming visible because he is returning.
> 
> Evidence:  "There," said Snape harshly.  "There. 
> The Dark Mark.  It 
> is not as clear as it was, an hour or so ago, when
> it burnt black, but 
> you can still see it" (GF 36).  This suggests that
> even though 
> Voldemort is, as far as we know, alive and feeling
> fine (if a tad 
> peeved), the mark will fade again--to invisibility,
> perhaps?
> 
> More evidence:  Sirius doesn't know anything about
> it, despite being 
> in the resistance and then in Azkaban, where, even
> if most prisoners 
> are in solitary most of the time, you'd think he
> would have seen it 
> sooner or later.
> 
> Still, I think V should be more careful.  What if
> Malfoy had been 
> playing tennis with Fudge at the moment V touched
> Wormtail's mark?  
> Bad scene.
> 
> Maybe it is visible only to DEs and to those to whom
> they wish to 
> expose it?
> 
> Amy Z
> 
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
I think that it is visible only at night and that V
only holds meetings and summons people at night. I'm
not sure but I think this is how it works.           >
---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From joym999 at aol.com  Sat May  5 04:20:00 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 04:20:00 -0000
Subject: Wands / cores
In-Reply-To: <3AF36896.34208B6A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9cvv1g+5mhr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18189

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I've read all 4 -- and all since the end of February! I'm a
> > late-comer. So it's just that I don't remember what the 4th core 
is
> > from GOF. What was it?
> 
> Veela hair. The core of Fleur's wand is a hair from the head of her
> grandmother, who is a veela. Ollivander doesn't use veela hair, but 
it
> clearly works. 


>I'm betting other stuff works as cores, too, that we just
> haven't heard of yet.
> 
My wand's core is asparagus.  Just one slender, green asparagus.  
It's a good wand for cooking, and it works pretty well for potions, 
too.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 04:19:31 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 00:19:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class and other thoughts
References: <9csngh+ho7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002201c0d51a$96b6c400$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18190

I don't have my copy of GOF in front of me, but IIRC, dumbledore is the one who wants the fourth years to be taught about the unforgivables.  if mad-eye/crouch doesn't go along with dumbledore's lesson plan, he'd be casting suspicion on himself, and making it more likely he'd be discovered before he could put his plan into action.  he *has* to act just as the real mad-eye would, to keep suspicion from falling upon him.

the thing that really gets to me is that he manages to go the entire year without slipping up.  dumbledore, regardless of how he might at times appear, is far from stupid, and would definately notice anything even slightly out of the ordinary, implying, to my mind, that crouch was able to perfectly impersonate mad-eye the entire year.

IM ever so HO, crouch slipped up at least once, before the third task -- like the boomslang skin and **other object whose name escapes me at the moment** stolen from Snape's office -- ingredients for a polyjuice potion.  wouldn't dumbledore hear about something like that?  after all, snape encountered filch while wandering around, and complained that someone was in his office.  if snape didn't say anything to dumbledore, filch most definately would.  

so we have two choices --either dumbledore is aware of the theft and did not realize the signifance of the stolen items, or dumbledore never heard about the theft.
hrm.  i can't see dumbledore missing a thing like that, which would imply that neither snape nor filch informed dumbledore about the theft...
thoughts?

Abbie, who is speaking of fictional characters as if they were real people, and is vastly amused at herself because of it
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: meboriqua at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, 03 May, 2001 6:53 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class


  Okay, I know we often preface postings with "I hope this hasn't been 
  discussed a gazillion times before," but... here goes anyway!

  I was just listening to my audio version of GoF (Dale), and I am up to  
  the part where Mad-Eye teaches the Imperius Curse to Harry and his 
  Gryffindor housemates.  If Mad-Eye is not really Mad-Eye, but Death 
  Eater Barty Crouch, Jr, then why would he want anyone from Gryffindor 
  to be able to throw off the curse?  Why did he teach it to them?

  That scene has been bothering me since I finished reading GoF for the 
  first time.  Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

  --jenny from ravenclaw****************************************


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From pgonzale at nd.edu  Sat May  5 04:49:04 2001
From: pgonzale at nd.edu (Philip Gonzales)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:49:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bertha Jorkin's Memory Charm
References: <9cuc5m+g7dv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001801c0d51e$b6992980$ec8c4a81@student.nd.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18191

Good question. I think that it means that Voldemort broke the Memory Charm. If I recall correctly, the Charm kept some sensitive Ministry information from getting out. The Ministry probably put ot on her due to a knowledge of both her nosiness and her tendency to gossip. I may be wrong, though :-) 

Pottermaniac 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nera at RCONNECT.COM 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:51 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bertha Jorkin's Memory Charm


  Voldemort says concerning Bertha Jorkins:
  "We could have modified her memory? But Memory Charms can be
  broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her. It
  would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
  extracted from her, Wormtail." 

  I do not understand this paragraph. What did Voldemort mean when he 
  said, "as I proved when I questioned her." ?

  Who had put a Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins? Why would they have put 
  a Memory Charm on her? 

  This is one of those things that I wondered about at the time I read 
  it ... then I got distracted and forgot about it.

  Can anyone clear this up for me?

  Doreen






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From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 05:30:53 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 05:30:53 -0000
Subject: crookshanks
Message-ID: <9d036d+dp37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18192

Whilst looking for a picture of my clan tartan online, I came across 
this factoid - Crookshank is a dependent name of the Clan Stewart of 
Garth or Clan Stewart of Atholl... Maybe JKR found the name that way, 
and it's not got much to do with crooked shanks? Just a thought.

Heather M.




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat May  5 06:15:09 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 06:15:09 -0000
Subject: missing wands Barty Crouch Jr.'s wand
In-Reply-To: <3AF3053E.A88599A1@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9d05pd+90qb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18193


Rita said:
> > 5) the prisoners wands when they are sent to Azkaban,
> Considering that Hagrid's wand was snapped just for having been
> expelled, one would expect that the wand of anyone sentenced to life
> imprisonment would be snapped. I suppose the MoM has a locked place 
>to keep wands of people who are being held only temporarily.

*********************
If people who are sentenced to life have their wands snapped, or 
otherwise destroyed, IYO, and if someone else's wand doesn't work as 
well for each person, whose wand is Barty Crouch Jr./Alastair Moody 
using when he points his wand at Malfoy and turns him into a ferret?

Doreen, who just read that paragraph
*********************





From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 06:47:43 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 06:47:43 -0000
Subject: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
In-Reply-To: <9cpjh3+b9bn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d07mf+tic2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18194

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:

> The Quidditch matches are the parts of the books I 'speed read' 
> through. I don't find them particularly interesting.

*sigh* I was exaggerating to point out the fact that the author 
seemed dead set against the books from the beginning.
 
> > However, the other two articles are very interesting, especially 
if 
> > one knows anything about Jungian psychology. The first article, a 
> > short one called "The Ghost of Moaning Myrtle Who Haunts the 
First 
> > Floor Toilet, Platform Nine and Three Quarters at King's Cross 
> > Station . . . and all that" by Marilyn Nagy at first discusses HP 
> in 
> > relation to other British children's literature such as Oliver 
> Twist 
> > and Little Men.

> "Little Men" is British??? 

It's by Louisa May Alcott, who . . . drat. Who is not British. You're 
right. :) I guess I thought she was British, because for me "Little 
Women" had a "British" feel to it, along the lines of Oliver Twist.

> > Specifically, she focuses on HP as a moral tale. For 
> > instance, in relation to that often-quoted passage in CS when 
> > Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what 
> we 
> > truly are, far more than our abilities," Nagy says, "What the 
> > presence of the grown-ups signifies, I believe, is counsel 
against 
> > despair, and most particularly, against a belief that our 
decision-
> > making is a matter of moral indifference." 
> > 
> > Shortly after this, the article makes a transition into an essay 
on 
> > defining the Jungian movement as a moral heritage when Nagy 
> > claims, "The drama of the analytical process is like the drama of 
> the 
> > morality story and both of these, of course, are meant to be 
> > symbolically as close to real life as can be." In the end, Nagy 
> sums 
> > up by saying, "The surprise -- and I keep thinking that Owl Post 
is 
> > going to drop a Howler in my lap if I dare to say this -- is that 
> > here we are in the year 2000 with a grand new hero in a 
magnificent 
> > story which is a morality tale. It mirrors the morality tales of 
> 150 
> > years ago, and has very near relatives in all the morality 
stories 
> I 
> > can ever remember reading."
> > 
> > Hah, take that all those people who call HP "amoral" or "immoral."
> 
> HP is a "moral tale", but so are most fairy tales and people find 
> some of them rather unfit for the literary consumption of children. 
> The original Grimm's Tales, IMO, are far more entertaining than the 
> cleaned-up versions.

Yes -- in the original version of Sleeping Beauty, she's inpregnated 
as she sleeps. ^_^ Anyhow, the point of the article is that HP *is* 
moral, and that we should not be afraid to use that word anymore 
(even though it's acquired a negative, stuffy connotation).
> The 
> > article explores some of the mythology behind the books (the 
origin 
> > of the names of Harry's parents, for instance -- St. James was 
the 
> > patron saint of alchemists and physicians, and a lily represents 
> > purity, immortality, salvation, and the Virgin Mary), as well as 
> the 
> > psychology behind the books. 
> 
> IIRC, the patron saints for Physicians are Sts. Cosmas and Damien, 
> St. Luke and St. Panteleone. The ones for chemists and pharmacists 
> are Sts. Cosmas and Damien. St. James is patron of laborers.

I got that from the article, I have no idea if it's true or not. 
There are tons of patron saints of all sorts of things; St. James 
could very well be the patron saint of both laborers and alchemists 
AND physcians according to whatever source Grynbaum used.

> > Finally, "The Secrets of Harry Potter" has this to say about HP's 
> > fans: "Perhaps Harry Potter's fans constitute a generation across 
> age 
> > lines that feels somewhat orphaned and unprotected and, along 
with 
> > Harry, know the despair of spiritual emptiness and emotional 
> > starvation." Hm . . . I don't know that I agree with that.
> > 
> 
> I don't completely agree with her but I see her point. I think 
Harry, 
> Ron and Hermione have the same fears that we all can relate to in 
one 
> way or the other. 

Yes, but "spiritual emptiness and emotional starvation"? If everyone 
who reads HP is spiritually empty and emotionally starved, than we 
have some fairly large societal problems.

Stacy




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May  5 07:24:47 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 07:24:47 -0000
Subject: missing wands Barty Crouch Jr.'s wand
In-Reply-To: <9d05pd+90qb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d09rv+53nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18195

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
>
> If people who are sentenced to life have their wands snapped, or 
> otherwise destroyed, IYO, and if someone else's wand doesn't work 
> as > well for each person, whose wand is Barty Crouch Jr./Alastair
> Moody > using when he points his wand at Malfoy and turns him into 
> a ferret?

I think JKR intended that the fake Moody was using the real Moody's 
wand. Just because one never gets AS GOOD results with another 
wizard's wand doesn't mean that one doesn't get ADEQUATELY GOOD 
results...   

If a wand becomes gradually more accustomed to the person who uses 
it, and more adjusted to that person as it becomes more accustomed, 
then it would be a strange co-incidence if the real Moody and Crouch 
Jr had very similar wand attunements (well, both are fanatics).

But when Ollivander made the statement about never getting as good 
results with another wizard's wand and "the wand chooses the wizard" 
(and he has a motive to want to sell new wands to people rather than 
them using old wands from relatives), he was talking about whether 
the wand starts out with 'vibes' suitable to the person, not about 
results of familiarity. 

I imagine that most witches and wizards would match with any of quite 
a number of wands, and most wands would match with any of quite a 
number of witches and wizards, and it is only very witches and 
wizards with very special combinations of traits who are as hard to 
fit as Harry was, and that Ollivander starts the fitting with 
examples of very common wands that he keeps in the front of the shop, 
and as no match is found, he goes further and further back in his 
storeroom to very unusual wands that may have been waiting in the 
shop for centuries.

In that case, it would be less of a co-incidence if Moody and young 
Crouch both were attuned to the same wand -- they could both be 
attuned to some very common type of wand.

It also would explain how a person whose wand was destroyed could buy 
a new wand (if Ollivander or someone would sell it) -- maybe even 
Harry could buy a replacement wand from Ollivander, who might have to 
go even further back in his storeroom: "I don't want to sell this 
one because it has a griffin's claw as its core, rather than our 
standard unicorn hair, dragon heartstring, or phoenix feather. It was 
made during the Hellenistc era, when griffins were much more 
available than they are now."




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sat May  5 10:59:03 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 10:59:03 -0000
Subject: Snape the spy-- the play so far...
In-Reply-To: <9cv8dc+jdmr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d0mdn+or62@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18196

It's time for a useful summary on the Spy theory and the arguments 
for and against since I have a compulsion of doing literature 
review/summary.  Personally, I couldn't decide whether he's going to 
be a spy or not.
The argument for:
1. What else could it be?
2. It's a job that makes Snape pale; Dumbledore speechless for 
several minutes.  Unlikely to be, 'Severus, go to Peabody Institute 
and inform them that Voldemort has returned.'
3. There's a plan that Snape and Dumbledore have devised together 
prior.
4. Whatever he did, it was partly accomplished by the Leaving Feast.
5. Explains a lot as to his attitude towards the Slytherins -- he 
needs them to tell their DE fathers that he is on their side, when 
the time is here.
6. I just thought of something.  Remember how Harry has to drain a 
dreamless sleep potion near the end of GoF, right after Snape set off 
for his *mission*?  Hence, if Snape did went back to Voldie that 
night, Harry couldn't see Voldie having his little fun in his dream.  
Could the dreamless sleep potion be significant?

The argument against:
These are more complex...
1. The whole plot of PS/SS does not fit in.  It could not be easily 
explained away.  Especially the line -- 'When you have time to decide 
where your loyalty lies' seems to suggest strongly that Snape did 
know that the Dark side was involved in some way.  Secondly, 
Voldemort didn't trust Snape enough in PS/SS to let him learn the 
fact that he's occupying Quirrel's body, suggesting that Voldemort is 
at least uncertain about Snape's loyalty.
2. The three missing DE: The coward, the left forever and the Most 
faithful servant.  The automatic fit would be: Karkaroff--the coward; 
Crouch jr.--MFS; Snape--left forever.  
3. Harry has openly mused about the possibility.  According to MMM's 
third rule of HP, Harry or Ron's speculation about Snape is always 
wrong because JKR gets her kick out of misleading us about Snape 
through Harry.
 (BTW, the first rule is NEVER, NEVER under any circumstances, name 
or allow your son to be named after yourself.  Witness Tom Riddle, 
Barty Crouch.)

Spy enthusiasts's rebuttal
1. It is possible for Snape to plea ignorance.  He can claim he was 
pretending to be loyal to Dumbledore, playing his part as the spy and 
thought Quirrel wanted the stone for himself.  (You should have told 
me, master...)  It still looks bad but nothing a few 'crucio' can't 
take care of.
2. Someone has suggested that Karkaroff could be the one who has left 
forever.  Other suggest that Voldemort was not entirely certain 
about 'the one who has left forever' because he only said 'he 
believed'.  There is an unconfirmed report that JKR has pretty much 
implied that the one who has left forever was Snape.
3. So Harry could be right about Snape once in a while ... or once 
every four years.

I'm sitting on the fence on this one ...

I think it is very, very likely that Snape was the one informing 
Dumbledore about the Potters. (Wait till Harry finds out, can you 
imagine the shock?)
This also raises an interesting problem.  Fudge did know about 
Dumbledore's spys but in GoF he seems to be completely shock when 
Snape showed him the Dark Mark.  Does that mean that even Fudge 
doesn't know exactly who those spys were?  How does it reconcile with 
the scene in the Pensieve, when Dumbledore disclosed Snape's 
identity?  Does this mean that even the future MoM don't get invited 
to these trials?  Who are these people in the audience then?  
Dumbledore, Moody and Crouch were part of it.  It seems that it was 
not common knowledge that Snape and Karkaroff were DE.  (Harry only 
found out from Sirius.)  200 people and not a word leaked out is kind 
of hard to believe.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat May  5 11:13:28 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 11:13:28 -0000
Subject: Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion (was: Snape the spy)
In-Reply-To: <9cv5ji+f5oi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d0n8o+qn4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18197


> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
> > wrote about Snape?s task at the end of GoF:

> What if he made up a batch of potion using hair from the soul 
> sucked 
> > > Barty Crouch Jnr and then went to see Voldemort posing at his 
> most 
> > > loyal servant.
> > 
> > The problem is that very little time elapses between when they 
> found 
> > out that Barty Crouch has been sucked soul-less and when 
Dumbledore 
> > says to Snape "You know what you have to do."  Whatever it is, it 
> has 
> > to be something they have planned out in advance.  


I find that an excellent idea (and far more subtle than Snape 
transforming into Harry). It opens endless possibilities to how 
the Snape-Voldemort-relationship will go on.

There?s two problems, though:

1. Brewing the P.Potion takes four weeks, as we know from CoS. Unless 
you suggest Snape always has some of it brewing somewhere in case 
anyone wants to transform into someone else, it doesn?t seem a task he 
will be able to accomplish in a time as short as that.

2. If you take the P.Potion with hair from the "soul sucked" Barty C., 
won?t you turn out to become just as "soul sucked" as he is?
Or is the transformation entirely reserved to the outward likeness of 
the other person?




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat May  5 11:20:49 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:20:49 +0100
Subject: ADMIN - welcome/spag/netiquette
Message-ID: <024801c0d555$708e8a20$4c3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 18198

Greetings all,

WELCOME

Welcome to all our recent new members!  You should get a note from one of
our List Elves, and if you have any questions about the club or its
unfathomable rituals, please contact them by rapping on the big oak door
labelled hp4guelves at yahoo.com.  You can reach the Moderator Team at the
HPfGU Hexquarters: hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.


SPAG

No, not related to spam.  Darla referred to a "requirement" for good
spelling and grammar on the list.  Yes, there are references to "strongly
encouraging" this, in our welcome message and elsewhere.  To clarify, this
is aimed at avoiding incomprehensible, hastily-written posts, all in lower
case, with kooky spellings (if U C wot I mean) and no punctuation.  It is
*not* meant to discourage intelligent postings from people or Elves for whom
English not the first language, for example (many of whom write in excellent
English anyway!) or who may make the odd spelling error or typo (we *all* do
that).  The intention is to make posts as easy as possible to read or skim.


NETIQUETTE

A quick wand-poke on a few netiquette points (please see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquetteTIPS.htm  for
the full list of netiquette tips)

**Canon-Fanon/Opinions: Rebecca Bohner noted some recent confusion in
relation to Sirius Black's sexiness.  If your opinion relates more to fanon
and is not supported by canon, please strap on the FF prefix or post to OT
Chatter.  Otherwise, please remember to say that it is your opinion,
thought, idea, speculation or wild, lust-filled fantasy.

**Headings: Make sure your message subject heading is appropriate (or at
least present...!) and indicative of the content before hitting send.  If
the thread has changed, please change the heading.  Use the prefixes FF (for
fanfic-related posts), MOVIE (for movie-related posts), SHIP (for
relationshipping posts)  As for fantasy casting: Trying to shoehorn your
favourite actor into the boots of Sirius Black or Remus Lupin?  That goes to
OT Chatter...

**OT posts:  As a rule, anything *not* related to Harry Potter should go to
the OT Chatter list.  On the odd occasion we do post something OT on the
main list, I suggest that we continue to prefix it 'OT', for clarity.
Strongly tangential topics, such as the origins of magic, are okay on the
main list with an OT note, but may have to be moved to OT Chatter if they
drift too widely.

**One line and short posts:  The list was slowed down by the recent Yahoo
gremlin, but when it's at full speed, it gets *very* busy.  With this in
mind, please try to avoid posting short comments or single sentences that
don't really add anything to the debate ("LOL!", "Me too!", "I agree!" etc).
If appropriate, drop someone a note offlist to let them know that your
enjoyed their post, or whatever.

**Responding: Please remember to (a) give some details of the originating
post (including the name of the sender) (b) if the original post was very
long, please refer only to those parts to which you are responding and chop
the rest out.

Thank you, kindly.

I will now cast a 'model behaviour' spell:  "Regulato Observatum..!"  It
doesn't work on everyone, but it's always worth a shot..

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






















From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Sat May  5 11:34:32 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 11:34:32 -0000
Subject: "one more death"
In-Reply-To: <9cvhdi+kfk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d0og8+dvo4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18199

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Doreen wondered:
> 
> > > But I *still* can't figure out what intended victim V is 
talking 
> > about
> > > when he says, "Just one more death, and the path to Harry Potter
> > > is clear."
> 
> Dave suggested:
> 
> We talked about this once before, and someone said the UK version 
> doesn't have this line.  It says "one more curse" or something like 
> that (can't check; my books are 60 miles away and I seem to have 
> developed something of a block about Summoning Charms).  That also 
> seems odd, know that I think of it, since at that point he knows 
he's 
> going to keep both Moody and Crouch Sr. under the Imperius

The UK version says "One more obstacle removed..." It is quite clear 
in this paragraph that they are talking about nabbing Moody:-

'If you follow the plan, Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that 
anyone else has disappeared. You will do it quietly, and without 
fuss; I only wish I could do it myself, but in my present 
condition ... come, Wormtail, one more obstacle removed and our path 
to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that 
time, my *faithful* servand will have rejoined us -'

It seems obvious to me that the one obstacle is Moody, which Wormtail 
and Crouch Jnr. take care of together.

It seems bizarre that they would change the US versions so that they 
make so little sense. But that's americans for you.



Dai




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat May  5 11:52:54 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 11:52:54 -0000
Subject: Bertha Jorkin's Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <001801c0d51e$b6992980$ec8c4a81@student.nd.edu>
Message-ID: <9d0pim+u2l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18200

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Philip Gonzales" <pgonzale at n...> wrote:
> Good question. I think that it means that Voldemort broke the 
Memory Charm. If I recall correctly, the Charm kept some sensitive 
Ministry information from getting out. The Ministry probably put ot 
on her due to a knowledge of both her nosiness and her tendency to 
gossip. I may be wrong, though :-) 
> 
> Pottermaniac 
>   > 
> 
> Barty Crouch Senior put the Memory Charm on Bertha because she 
discovered that his son was still alive.  GoF, p. 595, UK edition.

'But Bertha Jorkins heard Winky talking to me.  She came to 
investigate.  She heard enough to guess who was hiding under the 
Invisibility Cloak.  My father arrived home.  She confronted him.  He 
put a very powerful Memory Charm on her to make her forget what she'd 
found out.  Too powerful.  He said it damaged her memory permanently.'


It's the information that Barty Crouch Junior is alive and well that 
Voldemort extracts from Bertha. (also the fact that the Triwizard 
Tournament will be held at Hogwarts) He then shows up at the house, 
puts Senior under the Imperious Curse, and proceeds with his plan.  

IMO, *that's* why Voldy says that it would be an insult to her memory 
not to use the information he got from her. (Voldy has a rather 
twisted sense of humour, doesn't he? <g>

Peace & Plenty,

Parker (who's back after a two-week hiatus due to the Curse of the 
Computer)



> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 13:42:38 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 13:42:38 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9cvf4r+7ugb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d100e+qkmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18201

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Andrea" <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
 
> [shrug] There are many different interpretations to a lot of things 
in 
> these books.  We can read it several different ways, and maybe 
never 
> know what was intended by JKR!  

Now I agree with you here.  There are many passages in the books that 
many of us don't agree on.  I'm sure when all the books are published 
JKR will be glad to answer all our questions. 

 
> Well, I have to disagree.  I think the bit about Snape's mind-
reading 
> is just Harry getting more and more upset and nervous about the big 
> Quiddich match and the Stone mess.  As far as Snape's behavior 
> (getting harder on Harry in class), consider this - this happens 
right 
> after they've discovered that Snape is going to be refereeing the 
> Quiddich match.  We later discover this was to protect Harry.  
Snape 
> *hates* Harry, yet is going to protect him.  He isn't real happy 
about 
> this, so I imagine he's taking it out on Harry during class.

Snape hasn't been happy with the idea of protecting Harry since Harry 
came to Hogwarts.  He has always treated Harry badly.  You could also 
say that Snape has found out the kids know about the Stone and then 
Snape decides it's time to arrange a meeting with Quirrell to find 
out what Quirrell knows. If the kids know about the stone then Snape 
needs to start taking other action.  Thus, he confronts Quirrell in 
the forest.  At this time Snape also questions Quirrell's loyalty.  

This isn't the only passage with references to Snape and reading 
minds.


It seems pretty clear to me that Snape is trying to keep 
> away from eavesdroppers, since students aren't allowed in the FF.
> 
> 
> Andrea

Of course he is trying to keep away from eavesdroppers and the FF is 
the perfect place to go, or so he thought.  

Koinonia




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat May  5 14:38:26 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:38:26 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: wands - one more death - sexy Sirius
In-Reply-To: <3AF2F09D.BE7842@erols.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEFACEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 18202

> -----Original Message-----
> From: margdean [mailto:margdean]
 
> rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:
> > 
> > I have wondered for a long time about Sirius Black's wand and what
> > became of it-- and why he does not appear to have obtained a new wand,
> > now that he is free.

Well, he isn't exactly free. He is still hiding not only from the MoM,
but also from the rest of the wizarding world. I really can't see him
wandering around Diagon Alley and buy a wand. He cannot even buy
food and has to ask Harry to send him some. 

> Not necessarily!  The Firebolt could be purchased by mail order
> (owl order, whatever), but it seems likely that wand-buying has
> to be done in person -- at least, an exacting craftsman like Mr.
> Ollivander wouldn't have it any other way, since the wand has to
> be matched carefully to the person.

I can't see Mr. Ollivander sell wands by mail order, either, although I think
that Sirius would be happier with a wand that doesn't fit him 
perfectly than without one at all. He was even able to use Snape's wand
in the Shrieking Shack, and I really don't think that Snape and Sirius
are so alike that they would have similar wands. And Sirius can't
risk to steal a wand, he can't even risk to steal enough food, we know
he is still starving.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]

> We talked about this once before, and someone said the UK version 
> doesn't have this line.  It says "one more curse" or something like 
> that

Yes, in my UK version it says "one more curse", page 16 of the
Bloomsbury hardcover.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Catlady [mailto:catlady at wicca.net]

> Wizarding society seems very old-fashioned. No doubt it's the kind of
> culture in which pretty young witches wouldn't want their husbands or
> boyfriends to ever find out that the best sex they ever had was a
> quickie, in a cloakroom or something, with a prominent Death Eater.

I'll try to overread the "cloakroom or something". 8-) As other people
have already stated, there is no evidence in the canon that Sirius has
hunted down every witch in Britain before he went to Azkaban. Although
I can't believe he was of the shy type, being attractive and all, I don't
think the fact he wasn't married at the time really matters, because he
was still *very* young. Being locked away at 21 or 22 didn't leave him
much time to settle with a wife and children, and I am still not over
the revelation that Lily and James had Harry right after they graduated
from Hogwarts...

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 15:00:54 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:00:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape the spy
In-Reply-To: <9cv5ji+f5oi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010505150054.39720.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18203

> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
> > The task Snape is sent on at the end of GoF is this: he is to 
> > brew up a batch of Polyjuice Potion 
> > and then transform himself into Harry as a decoy for Voldemort.


> The problem is that very little time elapses between when they 
> found out that Barty Crouch has been sucked soul-less and when
> Dumbledore says to Snape "You know what you have to do."  Whatever 
> it is, it has to be something they have planned out in advance.  I 
> have been puzzling over this for months and I can not come up with 
> a theory that fits all the circumstances.
> > 
> > --Joywitch

I don't think Crouch Jr. matters in my suggestion.  Dumbledore and
Snape have known for a long time that Harry is going to be key to
destroying Voldemort once and for all.  They know that something will
trigger that moment sooner or later.  No reason they can't have it in
mind all through the years while they're waiting.

But I don't think Snape is going back to Voldemort even as a spy. 
Even accepting that V. isn't all that bright (as opposed to ruthless
and determined), he is very suspicious and even a legit Snape would
probably not get close enough to make the offer before being
flame-broiled.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May  5 16:14:36 2001
From: ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?jill=20adrain?=)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:14:36 +0100 (BST)
Subject: riddles.....
Message-ID: <20010505161436.10569.qmail@web11507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18204

with the risk of sounding stupid, as this undoubtedly
has a simple explanation, one which i'm not seeing!

at the start of gof, the riddle house has three dead
bodies found in it - mummy riddle, daddy riddle, and
tom riddle. aka voldemort?????

could someone please clear this up for me, as i don't
like not knowing!

Jill

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 16:17:12 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:17:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9csfti+7hi2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010505161712.922.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18205

> > Snape starts out with, "Have you figured out how to get past 
> > Hagrid's pet yet?"  
> > Finally, Snape asks Quirrell to decide who's side he's on. 
> > Again, Harry thinks Snape is threatening him to give him 
> > information, but 
> > Snape is actually telling Quirrel *not* to help Voldemort.
> 
> Please say more, Andrea, because I also have a hard time 
> understanding this scene.  I get what Harry thinks and what Snape 
> thinks (possibly--it's not at all clear to me whether he suspects 
> that V comes into it somehow, or whether he just thinks Q is trying
> to get the Stone for some more mundane reason; I lean toward the 
> latter).  

I think Snape's comment about where his loyalties lay is the
clincher: Snape thinks Quirrel wants the Stone to give to V. 
Quirrel's less-than-spectacular comeback to that comment would be
enough to wipe away Snape's doubts.

The question I have is: Does Dumbledore know what Snape is doing? 
Does he know that Quirrel for some reason can't be trusted?  

A while ago we discussed why Snape went to Filch for help when he
almost got mangled by Fluffy; it was suggested that he couldn't go to
another teacher who would ask questions.  Perhaps he could have
because all the staff know that Snape had been assigned to provide
extra protection to the Stone.  Is Snape Dumbledore's recognized enforcer?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 16:46:00 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 16:46:00 -0000
Subject: Wands / cores
In-Reply-To: <9cvv1g+5mhr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d1ao8+qb8o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18206

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes, I've read all 4 -- and all since the end of February! I'm a
> > > late-comer. So it's just that I don't remember what the 4th 
core 
> is
> > > from GOF. What was it?
> > 
> > Veela hair. The core of Fleur's wand is a hair from the head of 
her
> > grandmother, who is a veela. Ollivander doesn't use veela hair, 
but 
> it
> > clearly works. 
> 
> 
> >I'm betting other stuff works as cores, too, that we just
> > haven't heard of yet.
> > 
> My wand's core is asparagus.  Just one slender, green asparagus.  
> It's a good wand for cooking, and it works pretty well for potions, 
> too.
> 
> 

Ah, you and I must have the same wand maker, as mine is made of 
bamboo, 9 inches, excellent for skewering meat and poking to see if 
cakes are done.  (Okay, Neil, we'll not go any further...)

Stephanie



> 
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From bohners at pobox.com  Sat May  5 16:59:21 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:59:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] riddles.....
References: <20010505161436.10569.qmail@web11507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001701c0d584$bf1b2340$3738acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18207

> at the start of gof, the riddle house has three dead
> bodies found in it - mummy riddle, daddy riddle, and
> tom riddle. aka voldemort?????

Jill --

Don't feel stupid, this one threw me too (okay, maybe we're BOTH stupid).

At first I thought that V. had faked his own death, as a way of saying "The
Tom Riddle you knew no longer exists.  I am now Voldemort."  However, what
*really* happened was that the Tom Riddle who died in the Riddle House was
Voldemort's *father*, and the other two were Voldy's grandparents.

Voldemort was originally named Tom after his father, and Marvolo after his
(maternal) grandfather.  But Tom Sr. was a Muggle who deserted his wife and
little Voldy after he learned he had married a witch.  Obviously Tom Sr.
went back home to his parents after that.  And then Voldy grew up with a
major chip on his shoulder, looked up his delinquent dad and grandparents,
and killed the lot of them with Avada Kedavra.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 17:20:40 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:20:40 -0000
Subject: Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class and other thoughts
In-Reply-To: <002201c0d51a$96b6c400$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9d1cp8+1ska@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18208

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> IM ever so HO, crouch slipped up at least once, before the third 
task -- like the boomslang skin and **other object whose name escapes 
me at the moment** stolen from Snape's office -- ingredients for a 
polyjuice potion.  wouldn't dumbledore hear about something like that? 
 after all, snape encountered filch while wandering around, and 
complained that someone was in his office.  if snape didn't say 
anything to dumbledore, filch most definately would.  

It was boomslang skin and gillyweed.  The gillyweed was used for Harry 
to survive in the lake during Task #2.  Boomslang skin was definitely 
a clue - when Snape mentioned it to Harry, Harry thought of when 
they'd used it during COS.  But Snape was missing it *this* year, not 
two years ago.  

Of course, I'm sure boomslang skin is an ingredient of more than one 
spell, so it wouldn't necessarily imply Polyjuice Potion above any of 
the others.

> Abbie, who is speaking of fictional characters as if they were real 
people, and is vastly amused at herself because of it

You get used to it after a while. <g>



Andrea




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat May  5 17:46:39 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:46:39 -0000
Subject: Ban Ban Azkaban (filk)
Message-ID: <9d1e9v+qc5s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18209

Ban Ban Azkaban

(To the tune of Barbara Ann)

Dedicated to Steve Vander Ark

(THE SCENE: Azkaban Prison. Enter SIRIUS BLACK and a CHORUS OF 
DEMENTORS)

BLACK & CHORUS: A Ban ban ban ban Azkaban
Ban ban ban ban Azkaban

CHORUS: (Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
BLACK: In Azkaban I've this plan 
CHROUS: (Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
Azkaban
(Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
BLACK: I'll commence canine reshapin'
Then I'll be escapin' Azkaban
BLACK & CHORUS: Ban ban ban ban Azkaban

BLACK: When in a rut I change to a mutt
The dementors think it means I've just gone nuts
Azkaban
CHORUS: Ban ban ban ban Azkaban

BLACK: From Azkaban I'll have ran
CHORUS: (Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
Azkaban
(Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
BLACK: Rat pictures in the daily paper
Launch this latest caper Azkaban
CHORUS: Ban ban ban ban Azkaban

CHORUS: Say Ban ban ban ban Azkaban
Ban ban ban ban Azkaban
BLACK: Oh Azkaban leave its land
CHORUS: (Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
Azkaban
(Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
BLACK: You got me fleein' and a hidin'
`Cross the wide Poseidon Azkaban
Ban ban ban ban Azkaban

CHORUS: Dementor clan'll
Stop if we can 
Even put his mug on the Muggles' C-Span

Ban ban ban ban Azkaban
BLACK: In Azkaban I got canned
CHORUS: (Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
Azkaban
(Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
BLACK: It's gonna really turn out gruesome		
For Pete Pettigrew, son, Azkaban
BLACK & CHORUS: Ban ban ban ban Azkaban

CHORUS: Ban ban ban ban Azkaban
Ban ban ban ban Azkaban
Ban ban ban ban Azkaban
BLACK: I'll Azkaban countermand
CHORUS: (Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
Azkaban
(Ban ban ban ban Azkaban)
BLACK: Across the sea I'll be leapfroggin'
When I start a-doggin'Azkaban
BLACK & CHORUS: Ban ban ban ban Azkaban
Azkaban
Azkaban

(BLACK transforms into a dog, and exits toward the sea)

    - CMC




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 18:10:57 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:10:57 -0000
Subject: wands - one more death - sexy Sirius
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEFACEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9d1fnh+713m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18210

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:

> Well, he isn't exactly free. He is still hiding not only from the 
MoM,
> but also from the rest of the wizarding world. I really can't see 
him
> wandering around Diagon Alley and buy a wand. He cannot even buy
> food and has to ask Harry to send him some. 


Okay, he isn't really "free", but Crookshanks was able to help him buy 
the Firebolt, he clearly has some money stashed away somewhere, and he 
was able to hide out in some tropical place for a while where, it 
appears, he was able to recover a bit. When he talked to Harry via 
long-distance fire in Gryffindor Tower he was apparently not living on 
rats at the time, and had even managed to get a haircut.

Clearly he can use a less than perfect wand, and that have ANY wand is 
better than none. So why wouldn't Dumbledore or Lupin dig one up for 
him? 

Maybe he has one, but it is simply not mentioned. *shrug*

I also frankly do not get the living in caves and eating rats thing. 
Yes, I know he is a fugitive, but if he can hang around the Hogwarts 
pumpkin patch as a dog, or "lie low" at Lupin's, surely the cave and 
the rats are not necessary. Who would question Dumbledore suddenly 
acquiring a "pet" newfoundland? Just my silly thoughts on the 
matter....

About sexy Sirius, a subject dear to my own heart:  All we really know 
about his pre-Hogwarts days is that (1) he and James were inseparable 
friends, (2) that he was handsome and full of laughter, and (3) that 
he and the other maurauders conducted themselves in a very 
high-spirited rules-defying fashion. We know that (4) he and James 
were very talented wizards and that (5) this was why Peter glommed 
onto them, hoping that some of their strength and status would rub 
off onto him. We know that (6) he rode a motorcycle, and (7) did some 
creative work on it to make it fly. Not exactly cautious or lacking in 
confidence, eh? Given all of this, it is very hard to believe that he 
wasn't extremely attractive to women (or men for that matter)! 
Everthing about his personality adds up to POPULAR. It is actually not 
assuming too much to put leather pants on him-- motorcyclists do wear 
leather for practical reasons. If he rode a motorcycle seriously 
enough to know how to do work on it, he must have worn leather. 

*Regaining my composure and putting the drool back into my mouth*

James and Lily married at an unusually young age-- it would be more 
typical for someone who is 21 or 22 to not be married, maybe not even 
have a serious girlfriend. He was probably playing the field, having 
fun, and thinking about other things back then. I don't think we are 
stretching things to assume that he was a popular and bold in his 
sexual life. Tumbling with lots of pretty witches in the cloakrooms 
migth sound distasteful to someone who is older and perhaps thinking 
more about committed relationships, but if Percy is willing to make 
out in empty classrooms, I am sure Sirius had his share of such 
tristes. 

Ah, if the rosebushes could only speak!

--Suzanne




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat May  5 18:48:30 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:48:30 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: sexy Sirius
In-Reply-To: <9d1fnh+713m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKMEFECEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 18211

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com [mailto:rainy_lilac at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 8:11 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: wands - one more death - sexy Sirius

> Okay, he isn't really "free", but Crookshanks was able to help him buy 
> the Firebolt, he clearly has some money stashed away somewhere, and he 
> was able to hide out in some tropical place for a while where, it 
> appears, he was able to recover a bit.

I always assumed that the tropical place was so far away that the
ministry couldn't find him there. And I think he didn't have to hide
there or he wouldn't have been able to recover.

> When he talked to Harry via 
> long-distance fire in Gryffindor Tower he was apparently not living on 
> rats at the time, and had even managed to get a haircut.

I always wondered where he was during that time. He had been back
to England for a few weeks (since he came back in October and he
met Harry in the Gryffindor common room in November). Where did
he stay then? Apparently somewhere "well hidden" as he said, but
where he was able to take care of himself and get enough to eat. My
guess is that it was nowhere near Hogwarts, because this is where
the Ministry (and the Dementors) would look for him first. 

> Clearly he can use a less than perfect wand, and that have ANY wand is 
> better than none. So why wouldn't Dumbledore or Lupin dig one up for 
> him? 

Good question. I think that Dumbledore wouldn't do something that
illegal at this point, but he might change his mind in the next book.
As for why Lupin doesn't get him a new wand, I don't know. Maybe
because it would be too suspect, too, because everyone knows
that they were/are friends.

> Maybe he has one, but it is simply not mentioned. *shrug*

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a wand right now.
 
> I also frankly do not get the living in caves and eating rats thing. 
> Yes, I know he is a fugitive, but if he can hang around the Hogwarts 
> pumpkin patch as a dog, or "lie low" at Lupin's, surely the cave and 
> the rats are not necessary. Who would question Dumbledore suddenly 
> acquiring a "pet" newfoundland? Just my silly thoughts on the 
> matter....

Sirius is only starving when he has to stay near Hogsmeade. Seriously,
Dumbledore can't hide him inside the castle, and when he was waiting
in the pumpkin patch, it was night and most people wouldn't have
noticed the big, black dog. I think the cave was "necessary" in GoF
because he wanted to be with Harry, and this was the closest he could
get to him without endangering other people. Lupin might live far away,
we don't know it, but I think that he lives in a rather remote spot. Life
as a werewolf isn't easy, either. So Sirius will be rather safe at Lupin's,
and hopefully he will recover over the summer. I got the impression at
the end of GoF that he had physically reverted to his PoA state.

> About sexy Sirius, a subject dear to my own heart: 

Believe me, you are not the only one. 8-)
 
> *Regaining my composure and putting the drool back into my mouth*
 
> Tumbling with lots of pretty witches in the cloakrooms 
> migth sound distasteful to someone who is older and perhaps thinking 
> more about committed relationships, but if Percy is willing to make 
> out in empty classrooms, I am sure Sirius had his share of such 
> tristes. 

Maybe I am really too old to think realistically about those things,
but you can be a happy, laughing guy and have fun without being
a womanizer who can't think of anything else than hunting down
every witch between Dover and Scotland. But you have a point with
your mention of Percy. ;--) I don't believe in any way that Sirius was
a saint, but there are nuances.

> Ah, if the rosebushes could only speak!

Lol! That would indeed be very interesting.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 
Last updated: 5-5-2001





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat May  5 18:56:31 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:56:31 -0000
Subject: Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion (was: Snape the spy)
In-Reply-To: <9d0n8o+qn4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d1icv+4njo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18212

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
> > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich 
<mgrantwich at y...> 
> > > wrote about Snape?s task at the end of GoF:
> 
> > What if he made up a batch of potion using hair from the soul 
> > sucked 
> > > > Barty Crouch Jnr and then went to see Voldemort posing at his 
> > most 
> > > > loyal servant.
> > > 
> > > The problem is that very little time elapses between when they 
> > found 
> > > out that Barty Crouch has been sucked soul-less and when 
> Dumbledore 
> > > says to Snape "You know what you have to do."  Whatever it is, 
it 
> > has 
> > > to be something they have planned out in advance.  
> 
> 
> I find that an excellent idea (and far more subtle than Snape 
> transforming into Harry). It opens endless possibilities to how 
> the Snape-Voldemort-relationship will go on.
> 
> There?s two problems, though:
> 
> 1. Brewing the P.Potion takes four weeks, as we know from CoS. 
Unless 
> you suggest Snape always has some of it brewing somewhere in case 
> anyone wants to transform into someone else, it doesn?t seem a task 
he 
> will be able to accomplish in a time as short as that.
> 
> 2. If you take the P.Potion with hair from the "soul sucked" Barty 
C., 
> won?t you turn out to become just as "soul sucked" as he is?
> Or is the transformation entirely reserved to the outward likeness 
of 
> the other person?

I'm not saying that I find the whole polyjuice thing plausible with 
regard to Snape, but as to it taking weeks to brew - surely Barty 
Crouch would have some on standby to keep him transformed as Moody?  
It would be good enough, as the hair/part of whoever one wants to 
transform into is only added at the end.

Catherine




From wr7238 at msn.com  Thu May  3 03:21:54 2001
From: wr7238 at msn.com (Roy Mallett)
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 23:21:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal
Message-ID: <OE33A733LJa5OVifMWZ00013618@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18213

Don't worry Stephanie they will!
 If I got your multiple post about it, I know they did.

I'm sorry to tell I'm not one of them. I'm just a 48 year old Mom with two boys at home who love Harry Potter as much as me.

Actually it was my 12 year old wh oread it in school last year. He got me hooked.

But they will get back to you.

Actually I should have sent this to you on the ot line. Sorry Neil or any of you moderators out there. Just wanted to cheer up Stephanie.

Wanda the Witch of Revere





----- Original Message -----
From: hpconference at yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 11:14 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP articles in the SF Jung Institute Journal


I am positivily wringing my hands in delight!  THis is exactly what  
I'm taking about -- the scholarship is out there -- YOU'RE out there,  
we know you are.  ANswer the HP conference survey please, please --  
I've only gotten a hand full of reposes so for and I'm very  
depressed. <snif snif>

Okay, I've regained composure now, sorry.   

Stephanie  




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> Recently I attended a class at the San Francisco Jung Institute,  
and  
> while I was there obtained a copy of their quarterly journal. Lo  
and  
> behold, I open it up and what do I find? THREE articles on Harry  
> Potter! Two are positive, one is negative.  
>  
> The one negative essay, considering the nature of the other  
articles  
> in the journal, seems to be a token article; whoever was putting it  
> together decided, "Well, we have to show all sides" and tossed it  
in  
> there. It is the only one of the three that I would not  
> call "scholarly" (the other two are reviews of the books using  
> Jungian psychology). Written by Harold Bloom, and originally  
> appearing in The Wall Street Journal, the negative article ("Can 35  
> Million Book Buyers Be Wrong? Yes.") focuses on how HP is not well-
> written and in fact full of cliches. Bloom finds  
Hogwarts "tiresome,"  
> and says that, "When the future witches and wizards of Great  
Britain  
> are not studying how to cast a spell, they preoccupy themselves  
with  
> bizarre intramural sports." ^_^
>  
> It should be noted that the author read only the first book (which  
> someone told him was the best -- *shrugs* -- I myself greatly  
prefer  
> both the third and the fourth). I found everything in the article  
to  
> be a complete matter of opinion. (He didn't like Quidditch! *sigh*  
If  
> you can't like something like Quidditch, than there's no hope for  
you  
> to like HP in general.)
>  
> However, the other two articles are very interesting, especially if  
> one knows anything about Jungian psychology. The first article, a  
> short one called "The Ghost of Moaning Myrtle Who Haunts the First  
> Floor Toilet, Platform Nine and Three Quarters at King's Cross  
> Station . . . and all that" by Marilyn Nagy at first discusses HP  
in  
> relation to other British children's literature such as Oliver  
Twist  
> and Little Men. Specifically, she focuses on HP as a moral tale.  
For  
> instance, in relation to that often-quoted passage in CS when  
> Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what  
we  
> truly are, far more than our abilities," Nagy says, "What the  
> presence of the grown-ups signifies, I believe, is counsel against  
> despair, and most particularly, against a belief that our decision-
> making is a matter of moral indifference."  
>  
> Shortly after this, the article makes a transition into an essay on  
> defining the Jungian movement as a moral heritage when Nagy  
> claims, "The drama of the analytical process is like the drama of  
the  
> morality story and both of these, of course, are meant to be  
> symbolically as close to real life as can be." In the end, Nagy  
sums  
> up by saying, "The surprise -- and I keep thinking that Owl Post is  
> going to drop a Howler in my lap if I dare to say this -- is that  
> here we are in the year 2000 with a grand new hero in a magnificent  
> story which is a morality tale. It mirrors the morality takes of  
150  
> years ago, and has very near relatives in all the morality stories  
I  
> can ever remember reading."
>  
> Hah, take that all those people who call HP "amoral" or "immoral."
>  
> The second article, "The Secrets of Harry Potter" by Gail A.  
> Grynbaum, is much longer -- 32 pages in fact -- and approaches HP  
> from a truly psychological (as opposed to moral or literary) point  
of  
> view. It summarizes all four books and calls them an "alchemical  
> reading experience, a revelation of secrets and strata previously  
> reserved to the contemplation of the woodcuts in Jung's essays on  
> alchemy or to the Jungian analysis of dreams." If you are familiar  
> with Jungian psychology, you will know that this is a highly  
> complimentary statement.
>  
> Grynbaum focuses on both the dreamlike atmosphere of HP and on the  
> archetypes that are present: that of the Orphan, the Vampire, and  
the  
> Resilient Young Masculine. I, myself, (though I am no Jungian  
expert)  
> would add the Wise Old Man and David vs. Goliath to that list. The  
> article explores some of the mythology behind the books (the origin  
> of the names of Harry's parents, for instance -- St. James was the  
> patron saint of alchemists and physicians, and a lily represents  
> purity, immortality, salvation, and the Virgin Mary), as well as  
the  
> psychology behind the books (I'm betting that JKR herself would be  
> very interested in reading this, since I doubt she ever had any of  
> this in mind). One section bares the rather silly name (I think)  
> of "Quidditch Player of the Soul" (^_^). It also goes into "Harry  
> Potter as a Contemporary Shaman," saying that, "Harry Potter is an  
> inspiring vision of a contemporary Western shaman with whom a hope  
> lies that he will show us how to retrieve lost soul."
>  
> Finally, Grynbaum has this to say about HP fans: "Perhaps Harry  
> Potter's fans constitute a generation across age lines that feels  
> somewhat orphaned and unprotected and, along with Harry, know the  
> dispair of spiritual emptiness and emotional starvation." I don't  
> know that I agree with that.
>  
> I enjoyed these articles, but never again will I think that we here  
> at HP4GU's delve into these books too deeply!
>  
> Stacy


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From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 19:12:53 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:12:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class
In-Reply-To: <9ctmk9+fg5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010505191253.19136.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18214


> 
> > jenny from ravenclaw wrote, " If Mad-Eye is not
> really Mad-Eye, but 
> > Death 
> > > Eater Barty Crouch, Jr, then why would he want
> anyone from 
> > Gryffindor 
> > > to be able to throw off the [imperious] curse?" 
> 
I've been giving this one some thought, and I came up
with this. One, Barty Crouch, Jr. couldn't be sure
Imperious would be a key thing with Harry. How was he
to know Voldy was going to play with Harry first and
not just use Ak at the first oppertunity? (Granted
this is a bit of a stretch, given the DE's history
with Imperious.) Two, BC, Jr. spent _years_ living
under the Imperious Curse. He eventually learned to
beat it. I wonder if he didn't take a cewrtain
pleasure in teaching someone else to beat it, too.
Sort of another way of rebelling against his father.
BC, Jr. seems to have spent a lot of time rebelling
against his father, after all.

Anne

__________________________________________________
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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat May  5 19:31:02 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 12:31:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <9d036d+dp37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505122848.02fe0480@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18215

At 05:30 AM 5/5/01 +0000, aichambaye at yahoo.com wrote:
>Whilst looking for a picture of my clan tartan online, I came across
>this factoid - Crookshank is a dependent name of the Clan Stewart of
>Garth or Clan Stewart of Atholl... Maybe JKR found the name that way,
>and it's not got much to do with crooked shanks? Just a thought.

I made another "Crookshank" sighting last night...


SPOILER FOR THE MOVIE _CHARADE_...

















Crookshank is the real name of Cary Grant's character.




                         -- Dave




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 20:16:18 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:16:18 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bertha Jorkin's Memory Charm
References: <9cuc5m+g7dv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c0d5a0$52559d00$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18216

IIRC, the Barty's put a spell on her--she visited the family home, and
discovered Jr was still alive--causing extreme chaos!

She hadn't been the same since--began forgetting stuff at work, and such.
********************
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by
accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We cause
accidents.
- Nathaniel Borenstein
----- Original Message -----
From: <nera at rconnect.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:51 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bertha Jorkin's Memory Charm


> Voldemort says concerning Bertha Jorkins:
> "We could have modified her memory? But Memory Charms can be
> broken by a powerful wizard, as I proved when I questioned her. It
> would be an insult to her memory not to use the information I
> extracted from her, Wormtail."
>
> I do not understand this paragraph. What did Voldemort mean when he
> said, "as I proved when I questioned her." ?
>
> Who had put a Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins? Why would they have put
> a Memory Charm on her?
>
> This is one of those things that I wondered about at the time I read
> it ... then I got distracted and forgot about it.
>
> Can anyone clear this up for me?
>
> Doreen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
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From margdean at erols.com  Sat May  5 19:40:25 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 15:40:25 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion (was: Snape the spy)
References: <9d0n8o+qn4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF45729.D5A8A003@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18217

lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:

> 2. If you take the P.Potion with hair from the "soul sucked" Barty C.,
> wont you turn out to become just as "soul sucked" as he is?
> Or is the transformation entirely reserved to the outward likeness of
> the other person?

Judging by Harry and Ron's use of the Polyjuice Potion in CoS, it
is just the outward likeness; they keep their own mentalities
when they turn into Crabbe and Goyle.  (Otherwise, wouldn't they
turn into an unconscious/drugged Crabbe and Goyle?)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From nera at rconnect.com  Sat May  5 20:36:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 20:36:06 -0000
Subject: "one more death"
In-Reply-To: <9d0og8+dvo4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d1o7m+tf61@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18218

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at s...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Doreen wondered:
> > 
> > > > But I *still* can't figure out what intended victim V is 
> talking 
> > > about
> > > > when he says, "Just one more death, and the path to Harry 
Potter
> > > > is clear."
********************************
This is a bit nit-picky ... but I have checked back through my posts 
and I can not find the origin of this thread, but am almost certain 
that I am not the one who "wondered" about this ... but rather, I 
gave my opinion on it and somehow it is accredited to me. Can anyone 
trace down the original statement better than I can?
Doreen
********************************
> It seems bizarre that they would change the US versions so that 
they 
> make so little sense. But that's americans for you.
> 
> Dai
********************************
Doreen, who does not consider it necessary, in making her point, to 
make generalizations about all brits to do so, and wonders why Dai 
does... hmmmm
********************************





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat May  5 20:40:24 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 20:40:24 -0000
Subject: JKR Notebooks/Sirius Black (Was : Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in  Order of the Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <3AF1B06A.ACC8A468@urbanet.ch>
Message-ID: <9d1ofp+ikm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18219

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Firebolt <particle at u...> wrote:
> catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > She did say recently, that she does have everyone's whole lives
> > mapped out.  She actually used Sirius Black as an example, saying
> > that she had detailed notes on the whole of his childhood - and 
liked
> > to know these details whether she used them or not.  

Firebolt wrote: 
> Where did she say this? Would you by any chance have a link?
> 

It wasn't in an online interview, so I don't know if it is 
available.  It was actually from a book in the "Telling Tales" 
series, which comprises of an interview with JKR, and a summary.  The 
part I was referring to is as follows:

"Q: Can you describe the process of creating the series?
"A: It was a question of discovering why Harry was where he was, why 
his parents were dead.  I was inventing it, but it felt like 
research.  By the end of that train journey I knew it was going to be 
a seven book series.  I know that's extraordinarily arrogant for 
somebody who had never been published, but that's how it came to me.  
It took me five years to plan the series out, to plot through each of 
the seven novels.  I know what and who's coming when, and it can feel 
like greeting old friends.  Professor Lupin, who appears in the third 
book, is one of my favourite characters.  He's a damaged person, 
literally and metaphorically.  I think it's important for children to 
know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle.  His 
being a werewolf is really a metaphor for people's reactions to 
illness and disability.

"I almost always have complete histories for my characters.  If I put 
all that detail in, each book would be the size of the Encyclopaedia 
Britannica, but I do have to be careful that I don't just assume that 
the readers know as much as I do.  Sirius Black is a good example.  I 
have a whole childhood worked out for him.  The readers don't need to 
know that but I do.  I need to know much more than them because I'm 
the one moving the characters across the page."

This gave me food for thought.  I love knowing that all the time she 
was writing books one and two she was looking forward to writing 
about Lupin, and probably Sirius as well.  It also makes me think 
that she leaves as little to chance as possible, and that almost 
everything and everyone is carefully placed from the start and is 
there for a reason.

Catherine
(BTW:  I hope that I'm not infringing copyright by quoting the whole 
of that answer, am I???)

















From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 21:31:24 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:31:24 -0000
Subject: sexy Sirius
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKMEFECEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9d1rfd+vjhb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18220

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:

> Maybe I am really too old to think realistically about those things,
> but you can be a happy, laughing guy and have fun without being
> a womanizer who can't think of anything else than hunting down
> every witch between Dover and Scotland. But you have a point with
> your mention of Percy. ;--) I don't believe in any way that Sirius 
was a saint, but there are nuances.


Eeek, I certainly did not want to imply anything about anyone's age 
(I'm 37!)! What I meant was... well, the young are going to be young 
and bubbling over with hormones and all of that. Being a "womanizer" 
is quite another thing though-- Sirius can be very attractive to 
many, many women, but this does not mean that he has to be the kind 
of guy who is trying to bed down every one of them. I associate that 
kind of behaviour with men who are pretty insecure about themselves 
and out to "prove" something. I would like him less is he was an 
intentional heartbreaker.

But he doesn't strike me as a virgin, and he does seem... well, high-
spirited. I don't see any sign that he had a serious longterm 
girlfriend (or boyfriend), but who knows? I am certain that making 
out in the cloakrooms, rosebushes and deserted classrooms is a happy 
past time and a rite of passage for many a Hogwarts student. Sirius 
strikes me as a guy who undoubtably had plenty of opportunities.

--Suzanne




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Sat May  5 21:34:04 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:34:04 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9cvg45+2nr4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d1rkc+988j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18221

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

> > 
> > Andrea
> 
> As I hear further opinions on the question I raised, I continue to 
> find your analysis explains the conversation best.  Could you now 
> address the level of Voldemorts's knowledge about Snape that has 
come 
> from all these conversations with Quirrel?
> 
> Haggridd

I am not Andrea, but I too agree with her analysis.  Taking it 
forward, I think that Voldemort must know that Snape is now on 
Dumbledore's side.  I think Snape & Dumbledore can't have realised 
that V was actually in the back of Quirrell's head (though one 
wonders how they rationalised the turban), or they would have moved 
more decisively against him (I think the Dumbledore-as-puppet-master-
for-Harry's-benefit theory can only be taken so far).

Also, Dumbledore in the Pensieve scene endorses Snape very firmly - 
surely this would have got back to Lucius Malfoy and the other DEs 
still at large.  They might hope he is really a double agent - but V 
would not take anything on trust.

For me the most compelling reasons for thinking Snape is not a double 
agent are 1) Dumbledore isn't fooled that easily; 2) Snape is really 
only free to be nasty to Harry if he's good - otherwise it just 
attracts unwelcome attention; 3) His attempt to convince Fudge with 
the Dark Mark on his arm seems completely spontaneous, and uncalled 
for unless he wants Fudge to fall in with Dumbledore.

So we are left with - what *is* Snape's task at the end of GoF?

David, who is beginning to realise that this clause is a big loophole 
for OT chatter.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat May  5 23:35:13 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 23:35:13 -0000
Subject: sexy Sirius and Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d1rfd+vjhb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d22nh+3n20@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18222

What I find interesting (and this goes for many children's books as 
well as HP - not that HP is simply a series of children's books :-P) 
is that most of the adult books in the HP series are single and appear 
to have neither sexuality nor sex drive.

I mean, shouldn't Dumbledore have experienced love - did he ever have 
a wife (or husband *ahem*) or children?  Or McGonagall?  Hagrid is the 
only adult who I can think of who shows interest in someone beyond 
friendship when he put on his best hairy and horrible suit for Madame 
Maxine.  There are rumors about Snape falling in love in the next few 
books.  I bet we'd all like to find out about Sirius' past with love, 
let alone his future! 

Why is everyone single?  I have my own opinions about it, but I'd like 
to hear others' thoughts.

--jenny from ravenclaw****************************************




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May  5 23:41:07 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 16:41:07 -0700
Subject: Various Topics, Including Spy Snape and Speculative Sexy Sirius 
Message-ID: <3AF48F91.7FD811D6@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18223

I have returned from having dim sum in Chinatown with my friends. Odd
way to celebrate Cinco de Mayo...

David Frankis wrote:
> Dumbledore in the Pensieve scene endorses Snape very firmly -
> surely this would have got back to Lucius Malfoy and the other DEs
> still at large.  They might hope he is really a double agent - but V
> would not take anything on trust.

V might take things on trust. He is a fool despite all his power, after
all. Anyway, I wonder how much of what we saw in Dumbledore's Pensieve
is known to the wizarding community and/or the Death Eaters? Sirius said
in GoF that he heard imprisoned Death Eaters crying out against Wormtail
for having led their master to his doom. Those particular Death Eaters
seem to have known that Peter was the traitor, even tho' the general
community and MoM and apparently Snape didn't know. Sirius said in GoF
that he didn't know whether Snape had been a Death Eater; one imagines
that the DEs imprisoned near Sirius would have cried out against Snape
if they'd known he been a spy on them.

> For me the most compelling reasons for thinking Snape is
> not a double agent are 1) Dumbledore isn't fooled that easily;

Dumbledore was fooled by Moody/Crouch for an entire school year.
Dumbledore never found that the Marauders were learning Animagery, nor
that Remus was leaving the Shrieking Shack in wolf form. He is less
omniscient than he gives the impression of being. I wonder about his
sources of information. Maybe the House Elves report to him about
unusual things they find while cleaning the rooms and corridors; maybe
the Ghosts report to him when they see people up to something. And maybe
you are habitually kind to the House Elves and they decide not to
mention to Dumbledore about the Animagery equipment they found in your
closet...  What other sources of information?

Gypsy Dee used the sig:
> The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most
> experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in;
> we're computer professionals. We cause accidents.

LOL

Doreen used the sig:
> who does not consider it necessary, in making her point,
> to make generalizations about all brits to do so, and wonders
> why Dai does... hmmmm

I suspect it has something to do with Doreen being a grown-up and Dai
being 20 years old and in university (possibly see way below).

Suzanne rainy lilac wrote:
> Who would question Dumbledore suddenly acquiring
> a "pet" newfoundland?

Are there people at Hogwarts besides the Trio and Dumbledore who know
that Sirius is a dog Animagus? A person who knows that but not that
Sirius is really innocent might test every new dog on campus with the
spell that forces Animagi to return to human form... Maybe test every
dog heesh encountered in Hogsmeade as well...

Monika wrote::
> > When he talked to Harry via long-distance fire in
> > Gryffindor Tower he was apparently not living on
> > rats at the time, and had even managed to get a haircut.
> I always wondered where he was during that time. He had
> been back to England for a few weeks (since he came
> back in October and he met Harry in the Gryffindor
> common room in November). Where did he stay then?

I like to imagine that he was staying with Remus, in an isolated cottage
or cabin suitable for depressed werewolves to sulk in. Speculation on
whether Remus owned, rented, or borrowed the cottage, from whom he
borrowed it (Dumbledore? or it came with a job as watchman over some
deserted antiquity or beast preserve?) or how he came to own it
(Inheritance? Purchase? With what money?) and when he came to own it.

Suzanne rainy lilac wrote a very fine description of Sirius as a young
man, too good to snip parts of (Suzanne, read my 'Lily' fic), and

Monika replied:
> Maybe I am really too old to think realistically about
> those things, but you can be a happy, laughing guy and
> have fun without being a womanizer who can't think of
> anything else than hunting down every witch between
> Dover and Scotland.

I've NEVER thought of Sirius 'hunting down' witches. I imagine that all
he had to do was go out in public and be his usual charming self, and so
many witches would proposition him that he simply wouldn't have had TIME
to accept all the offers, even if some of his time hadn't been devoted
to higher priorities like fighting the Dark Side and working on the
bike. Everyone knew it was just casual sex and no one's heart was
broken. Contrary to ASA, no one expected to be owled the next day, and
Sirius didn't really have any more experience than his friends in taking
a date to a romantic restaurant and giving her flowers. I can fantasize
that if young Sirius did want to take some special lady on a romantic
date, he might ask JAMES for advice!

A big part of my thinking so is because I am 43 years old now, high
school class of '74 and college class of '78, and I *remember* the late
'70s -- that is, when the Marauders, having finished Hogwarts in '76,
were running around the grown-up world. Disco (which I hated at the
time) was the sound track. No one knew about AIDS yet, cocaine was
generally believed not to be addictive (and the crystal 'rock' form
hadn't been invented yet), and 'cocooning' had not yet become
fashionable. Mainframe computers were as big as refrigerators and had
less computing power than the chip in my friend's current microwave.
Pocket calculators were EXPENSIVE. Microcomputers were just then being
invented: some of my acquaintances were among the IBMers in Boca Raton
inventing the PC (IBM brand name) using the 8086 chip. They accessed
DARPAnet thru teletyper terminals of mainframe boxes. VCRs were
expensive luxuries for rich people.

No-harm-intended promiscuity was one type of sex life common among the
people I knew on both coasts, in the Muggle world. In the wizarding
world, there additionally was a war on, and even tho' people tried to
put it out of their minds, a constant subliminal awareness that they
might be killed by Death Eaters at any moment would encourage hedonism.

I met men who were *that* attractive, and I (already ugly even in my
youth) was one of the women whose offers they just didn't have time to
accept (a kinder turn-down than "Yuck, you're so ugly").

Which leads to my other theory of the busy sex life ascribed to young
Sirius: Sirius is Mary Sue. No, I don't mean Marty Stu. [One of those
attractive men was named Marty, but his middle name was Frank.] I mean
that I, as the person who was turned down so often, am not quite tacky
enough to pub fic about an impossibly beautiful and brilliant witch who
seduced all four Marauders, Snape, AND Lucius Malfoy, was Lily's best
friend, and died on That Night while casting the spell that caused That
Curse to rebound on V and 'kill' him. But nonetheless I have found it
surprisingly pleasant to write from the viewpoint of the person who
*received* all those offers.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sat May  5 23:46:47 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 23:46:47 -0000
Subject: Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion (was: Snape the spy)
In-Reply-To: <3AF45729.D5A8A003@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9d23d7+rk0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18224

There are a few problems with Snape as polyjuiced Crouch jr:
1. Time Constraint.  Whatever he was sent to do by Dumbledore, it was 
agreed prior to The Dementor's Kiss.  Dumbledore didn't find out 
about Crouch until the Hospital wing scene.
2. Too huge a risk.  Polyjuice only lasts for an hour.  (umm, I need 
a drink, Master...)
3. Crouch used this to impersonate Moody.  JKR is more inventive than 
this.




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 23:58:14 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:58:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Draco
In-Reply-To: <9cvnj3+hiag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010505235814.17433.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18225


I've been reading quite a few fanfics lately and the way that the
majority of these stories treat the canon characters has led me to
think about Draco Malfoy. It seems to be a trend within an abnormally
large amount of fanfics to have Draco renounce the "dark side" and go
over to the "good side" with Harry and company. I can see the
attraction to write this way; the subject on what makes a person "dark"
and whether or not they can be redeemed is a fascinating one.

However, I wonder whether or not that'll happen within the canon. I was
trying to think if JKR has given any clues or hints as to if Draco will
turn out to be more "good" than "bad". Can anyone think of *anything*
redeemable that Draco has done within the four books? Because if he
hasn't, I find it hard to believe that JKR would be able to turn the
perception of him around in three more. It seems to me that Draco is
emphatically in the Dark Lord camp and quite happy to be there. Anyone
have any views on this?

I must admit, before I started reading fanfic, I hated Draco Malfoy
with a cherished passion. I saw *nothing* lovable or redeemable within
the character and many times wished he'd jump off a cliff. Now, I
almost wistfully wish that JKR would change his character although I
can't see how she could do it without it being trite.

~Amber


=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sat May  5 23:59:32 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Draco's character
In-Reply-To: <9cvc6i+jbkl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010505235932.10730.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18226


I've been reading quite a few fanfics lately and the way that the
majority of these stories treat the canon characters has led me to
think about Draco Malfoy. It seems to be a trend within an abnormally
large amount of fanfics to have Draco renounce the "dark side" and go
over to the "good side" with Harry and company. I can see the
attraction to write this way; the subject on what makes a person "dark"
and whether or not they can be redeemed is a fascinating one.

However, I wonder whether or not that'll happen within the canon. I was
trying to think if JKR has given any clues or hints as to if Draco will
turn out to be more "good" than "bad". Can anyone think of *anything*
redeemable that Draco has done within the four books? Because if he
hasn't, I find it hard to believe that JKR would be able to turn the
perception of him around in three more. It seems to me that Draco is
emphatically in the Dark Lord camp and quite happy to be there. Anyone
have any views on this?

I must admit, before I started reading fanfic, I hated Draco Malfoy
with a cherished passion. I saw *nothing* lovable or redeemable within
the character and many times wished he'd jump off a cliff. Now, I
almost wistfully wish that JKR would change his character although I
can't see how she could do it without it being trite.

~Amber


=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From tmayor at mediaone.net  Sun May  6 00:37:44 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 00:37:44 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d22nh+3n20@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d26co+glhg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18227

Jenny from Ravenclaw wants to know, > Why is everyone single?  I have 
my own opinions about it, but I'd like 
> to hear others' thoughts.
> 
Because then there'd be no reason for fanfic? <jk> 

Seriously, we don't have any evidence that every adult *is* single; 
again, I think that's Harry & Co.'s POV, which will probably change 
as they get older. There was a good thread awhile back speculating on 
which staff members might be married and even where their spouses 
might live (with them on campus, as is done at some boarding schools? 
In Hogsmeade, making it the typical college town?) And someone had 
written up the very short list of teachers that stayed at Hogwarts 
during holidays--everyone else, by inference, might be assumed to be 
spending time with families, immediate or otherwise. 

~Rosmerta




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 01:00:39 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: sexy Sirius and Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d22nh+3n20@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010506010039.71990.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18228

> Why is everyone single?  I have my own opinions about it, but I'd
> like to hear others' thoughts.
> 


Because the books are written from Harry's POV and that kind of thing
doesn't register with kids and just-about-to-be teens.  And when it
does you get the "EEEUUUWWWWW!!!! Not MY parents!!!" reaction which
is so much fun to watch.  None of the teachers as described in the
books is exactly date bait.

But there are some signs. Percy and Penelope in the dungeons. 
Rosmerta seems to exercise a fascination for males besides Ron.  The
Veelas were doing their stuff in GoF.  The rosebushes.  As the trio
get older, they will be more likely to pick up on this sort of thing.

Maybe there's another reason for Snape's grouchiness than has
appeared to date.

__________________________________________________
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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 01:10:45 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:10:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco
In-Reply-To: <20010505235814.17433.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010506011045.265.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18229

> Can anyone think of *anything*
> redeemable that Draco has done within the four books? 
> It seems to me that Draco is
> emphatically in the Dark Lord camp and quite happy to be there.
> Anyone have any views on this?

Draco Malfoy is a stupid, snotty little git who's too dumb to really
understand what the Dark Side is.  I think he sees it as some kind of
weekend country party where everyone swoops around in ultra-cool
black robes and his father is in charge of everything.  If he had
seen Lucius cringing in front of the returned Lord V. in GoF, he
would have been genuinely shocked.  

He enjoys inflicting pain without opening himself to the risk of
retaliation, hence the ever-present Goyle and Crabbe.  When Hermoine
lays a five-finger salute on him in class, he is helpless because you
can't smack a girl.  Maybe that's why he starts hanging out with
Pansy Parkinson.  She can hit Hermione for him.

I agree that he's getting almost boring in his hatefulness but I
don't think there's a lot of ambition or get-up-and-go in Draco.  He
expects to be handed things on a platter.  

And the problem with Draco repenting and turning good is that
SOMEBODY has to be on the Dark Side and if everyone reforms it just
won't be much fun when the retribution is handed out.

__________________________________________________
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 01:42:36 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 01:42:36 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Crouch_Jr._=96_Wands_=96_"one_more_death"_-_Snape?=
Message-ID: <9d2a6c+6hc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18230

Abbie wrote:

>IM ever so HO, crouch slipped up at least once, before the third 
task ->- like the boomslang skin and **other object whose name 
escapes me at >the moment** stolen from Snape's office -- ingredients 
for a polyjuice >potion. 

Oh, good catch on the boomslang skin!  Like Harry, I assumed that 
when Snape was lambasting him about it, he was talking about the time 
Hermione stole it, and it seemed so odd?-I thought, he's accusing 
Harry of a 2-years-past theft?  When there are so many more recent 
things to accuse him of?

I think the only other thing that was stolen was gillyweed, but if 
Dumbledore was informed of that theft, the natural person to suspect 
of stealing it would be Harry, since everyone knows he had some.  I 
wonder why he didn't get called on the carpet for it.  Maybe Snape 
didn't say anything to Dumbledore because he preferred to do a little 
extrajudicial threatening of Harry with it instead.

I agree with you that the most improbable plot point of GF is Crouch 
pulling the wool over Dumbledore's eyes for that long.  I do think 
that Crouch's trial in the Pensieve tells us that Dumbledore is 
wondering something about Crouch Jr. by that time (well geez, it's 
June already). If he knew boomslang skin had been stolen, his mind 
might well go to Polyjuice.  Snape doesn't know that the person in 
his office was "Bartemius Crouch," but Sirius does, and probably 
passed that info on to Dumbledore.  All of this explains why AD sent 
Snape to fetch Winky before the Polyjuice Potion wears off; once 
Moody took Harry, he not only knew Moody was bad news, he knew 
exactly who he was.

Which leads us to another question?if he was already suspicious of 
Moody, why'd he let him referee (or whatever you'd call it) the 3rd 
task?  Why didn't he tell Harry not to be alone with him?  Etc.?

Rita, loved your thoughts on using other people's wands.  I also 
think Harry was particularly hard to match:  Ollivander says, "Tricky 
customer, eh?"  I also wonder, though, whether it perhaps took Harry 
so long to find a match because the wand that fit him so well was the 
last one Mr. O would have thought of trying out.  My thinking was 
that Mr. O has a lot of intuition about what wand will be right for 
what witch or wizard, and so he often chooses a good one fairly early 
on, out of all the hundreds in the shop.  But in Harry's case, he 
ignored his intuition because it seemed so strange that Harry's wand 
should be related to Voldemort's.  Only after he'd turned up a lot of 
duds did he heed his intuition and have Harry try the Fawkes wand.  
Thoughts?

Dai wrote re: "one more death/curse/obstacle" in GF 1:

>It seems bizarre that they would change the US versions so that they 
>make so little sense. But that's americans for you.

Oh, now be nice.  There are other places where the US version makes 
more sense, yet the British editors didn't then say "yeah, that's 
better" and fix them.

Monika wrote:

>I am still not over the revelation that Lily and James had Harry 
right >after they graduated from Hogwarts...

Heya Monika, good to hear from you!  See if this calms your reeling a 
bit:  Lily and James graduated in 1978, married we don't know when, 
and Harry was born two years and a month after they'd left school.  
That seems young (in US terms anyway) if Hogwarts is like high 
school, but if it's more the equivalent of college, because further 
education is rare, then it's not so odd (again, in US terms).  Also, 
I wonder if the uncertainty of the time might have led them to marry 
quickly.  "Do it now, because tomorrow we may be killed," sort of 
thing-?which would make some people postpone having a child, but make 
others rush into it.

Lea pointed out:

>Brewing the P.Potion takes four weeks, as we know from CoS. Unless 
>you suggest Snape always has some of it brewing somewhere in case 
>anyone wants to transform into someone else

He could've been doing just that.  Then he just has to add Hair of 
Whomever and presto!  

I'm intrigued by the Snape-impersonates-Harry idea, but if he turned 
into Harry, then what did he do?  Go to Voldemort and thumb his 
nose?  Whoever posted this idea, I'd love to hear more.

MMMfanfic wrote:

> I think it is very, very likely that Snape was the one informing 
>Dumbledore about the Potters. (Wait till Harry finds out, can you 
>imagine the shock?)

Reading the Pensieve scene is very poignant if one has this idea in 
mind.  Harry asks Dumbledore,

"What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, 
Professor?"
  Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seconds[, thinking, "Because 
he nearly got himself killed trying to save your parents from 
Voldemort, Harry"], and then said, "That, Harry, is a matter between 
Professor Snape and myself." (GF 30)

> It seems that it was not common knowledge that Snape and Karkaroff 
>were DE.  (Harry only found out from Sirius.) 

Even Sirius didn't know about Snape.  "As far as I know, Snape was 
never even accused of being a Death Eater?-not that that means much." 
(GF 27)  But Sirius was already in prison when Karkaroff cut his deal 
with the MOM.

Amy Z
making the most of her GF before lending it away tomorrow?-sniff!





From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 01:52:00 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:52:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sirius' Money Vault?
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEFACEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20010506015200.14402.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18231


> > Not necessarily!  The Firebolt could be purchased by mail order
> > (owl order, whatever), 

Heigh-ho, I've just thought of something! Sirius sent Harry the
Firebolt, right? In POA, it says:

"Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name
but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault." (POA, pg
433)

Now why would the goblins in Gringotts allow someone besides the owner
of the money to access their money? Sure, Sirius probably sent his key
to his vault, but wouldn't someone question why Harry Potter would have
the key? Wouldn't someone at Gringotts make the connection that it was
actually Sirius who sent the order? I mean, considering the security
that Gringotts is supposed to have, it seems rather odd that nobody
would find any of this strange or halt the payment.

Or maybe I'm just questioning this too closely. Am I the only one who
finds this fishy?

~Amber


=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 02:01:52 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 02:01:52 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <20010506010039.71990.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d2bag+d2ds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18232

Jenny wrote:
> > Why is everyone single?  I have my own opinions about it, but I'd
> > like to hear others' thoughts.
> > 
> 
Magda wrote:

> Because the books are written from Harry's POV and that kind of 
thing
> doesn't register with kids and just-about-to-be teens.  

My teenage students (equivalent of Hogwarts years 4-7) were obsessed 
with their teachers' marital status.  Being single at the time, I got 
paired up with at least four different people in 9 months, according 
to my students.  I was very young (only a few years older than the 
oldest of the students), but not pretty--why were they so interested 
that they all but opened my mail?  My actual love life was much less 
lively than they imagined, I'll tell you.  

And when it
> does you get the "EEEUUUWWWWW!!!! Not MY parents!!!" reaction which
> is so much fun to watch.  None of the teachers as described in the
> books is exactly date bait.

Okay, there are a lot of frumps (Sprout), over-70's (Dumble, 
McGonagall, Flitwick), and plain old scaries (Trelawney), but what 
about Lockhart, Lupin, and Quirrell?  There's no comment on Lupin's 
or Quirrell's attractiveness or lack thereof, just that they're 
young, and we know Lupin is a favorite teacher of many, which one 
would think would lead to some crushes.  Lockhart, we know, is 
supposed to be a bit of a hunk.  Don't the students wonder whether 
these guys are married, have girlfriends, etc.?  And they'd probably 
be curious about the older teachers' kids, if not their marriages.

Don't get me wrong--I would much rather read about adventures, 
Quidditch matches, etc., than hear the Trio's speculations about 
their professors' love lives.  It's just that I think it's an 
artistic decision on JKR's part, not a reflection of real-life 
teenage interests.  Unless British kids are very different from US 
kids in this regard.
 
Jo did recently say that the teachers' marital status is significant 
and will come up.  Does anyone want to venture a theory about what 
that might mean?

Amy Z





From bohners at pobox.com  Sun May  6 02:11:07 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:11:07 -0400
Subject: Sirius matters (and so does Draco)
References: <F27GNsokLQ8aZRhQdOg00003337@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010101c0d5d1$d167dd20$3738acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18233

Taking an off-list discussion back on list at Amy Z's suggestion.  She
raised a good point when we were discussing differences between fanon and
canon portrayals:

> BTW, if Draco has his pick, how come he goes to the ball with Pansy?  Or
are
> all Slytherin girls pug-faced?

Ooh, there's a tough one for the fanonical "Draco is drop-dead gorgeous and
has the run of the Hogwarts girls" theory.  Any takers?

I also said, with regard to Sirius's sexual history or lack thereof:

> Sirius actually strikes me as a decent kind of guy, just one with fierce
emotions and a tendency to act impulsively rather than thinking things out.
But one of his primary characteristics is absolute loyalty to the people he
cares about -- which to me suggests that he'd be a one-woman type, not the
devil-may-care Don Juan we often see in fanon. <

I should add, unless one wants to suggest that Sirius was into casual
one-night stands, without it ever occurring to him to think about a
"relationship".  This is possible, particularly given the climate of the
70's, as Rita has pointed out.  But I honestly, truly, find it hard to
believe.  Sirius was certainly handsome and popular during his Hogwarts
days, but I know a goodly number of handsome and generally well-liked men
who are not playboys.  And remember, by the time he graduated from Hogwarts
he was only 17.  How common was it, really, for high school seniors to be
sexually active 30 years ago?  Some of them were, to be sure, but I would
suspect nowhere near the number that we have now.  Yes, Sirius's motorcycle
does fit into the "young rebel" image.  But there are different ways of
rebelling.

To me the wizarding world seems, in general, to be more old-fashioned and
straight-laced than the Muggle world.  So I wonder if we don't go too far in
reading Muggle social trends and mores back into the wizarding world and its
characters.

But that's just my opinion, which I will readily eat if JKR contradicts it.
(Although I doubt she will.)
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From editor at texas.net  Sun May  6 02:14:12 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:14:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion (was: Snape the  spy)
References: <9d1icv+4njo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF4B374.A4BAFFB7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18234

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> I'm not saying that I find the whole polyjuice thing plausible with
> regard to Snape, but as to it taking weeks to brew - surely Barty
> Crouch would have some on standby to keep him transformed as Moody? It
> would be good enough, as the hair/part of whoever one wants to
> transform into is only added at the end.

This isn't really a response to this message in particular, but I wanted
to toss out a thought or two. There's a couple real big reasons I don't
think that polyjuicing into anyone would be the brightest thing to do in
trying to fool Voldemort right now. One, the ploy was initially
Voldemort's, or at least he's intimately aware of it, so it's at the
forefront of his mind. Two, it only lasts for an HOUR, don't forget. I
imagine Crouch Jr. would have been in a world of trouble if anyone had
burst in on him for some reason at night. All Voldemort has to do to
check for this particular disguise is lock someone in a room for an hour
and ten minutes. Poof. And more boringly, on the authorial level,
polyjuice has now been a major plot device twice in two books, and I
think JKR will give it a rest.

By the way, this theory, among others, was discussed in a thread a month
or two back--I know one subject line was "Snape's Task" but it got
lengthy and varied. If I were wonderful and had loads of time I'd find
message numbers for you. But it was a long-lasting and productive
thread, well worth looking into.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun May  6 02:20:26 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:20:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possible Discrepancy in PS
References: <20010505161712.922.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AF4B4EA.70C470A0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18235

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> I think Snape's comment about where his loyalties lay is the
> clincher: Snape thinks Quirrel wants the Stone to give to V.
> Quirrel's less-than-spectacular comeback to that comment would be
> enough to wipe away Snape's doubts.

Actually, I don't think Snape knows that Quirrell's working for
Voldemort. I think that Snape is mightily offended that Quirrell is
working against Dumbledore in trying to steal the stone. Dumbledore
might have given Quirrell a break in the same way he has many others,
and it seems to me that it would really offend something in Snape's
character for such ungratefulness and/or disloyalty.

I still think that Snape can explain this to Voldemort, as (a) he,
Snape, had no idea he was obstructing the Master's plan, he begs
forgiveness, and (b) Snape was, as always, working in his Master's
interests in retaining and cementing Dumbledore's trust in him by
thwarting Quirrell, who as far as Snape knew was taking the stone from a
known place where Snape could at any time take it for Voldemort's use.
Voldemort would doubtless give him some pain, but I think Snape could
sell this bill of goods and come out alive and trusted by Voldemort to
be his contact at Hogwarts.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun May  6 02:38:56 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:38:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the spy-- the play so far...
References: <9d0mdn+or62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF4B940.AAE4F122@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18236

MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote:

> It's time for a useful summary on the Spy theory and the arguments for
> and against since I have a compulsion of doing literature
> review/summary.  Personally, I couldn't decide whether he's going to
> be a spy or not.

<snip of excellent points "for">

> The argument against:
> These are more complex...
> 1. The whole plot of PS/SS does not fit in.  It could not be easily
> explained away.  Especially the line -- 'When you have time to decide
> where your loyalty lies' seems to suggest strongly that Snape did know
> that the Dark side was involved in some way.

I still think that Snape is talking about Quirrell's loyalty to
Dumbledore, versus his betrayal of Dumbledore (by stealing the stone)
for whatever purpose. I don't think Snape does know why Quirrell wants
it; at the moment Quirrell is working against Dumbledore's wishes, and
that is enough to make Snape suspicious and observant, yet not enough to
tip Dumbledore off (until he, Snape, has more information and isn't
involved in a demeaning he/said-he/said). Quirrell's attack on Harry
evidently prompted the Forbidden Forest episode, so Snape knows
something major is up. However, given the small amount I think Snape
knows for certain, Snape could have interpreted this attack on the most
famous student at the school, which would have resulted in his serious
injury or death, to have been simply an attempt at a spectacular
distraction.

Sorry, running longwinded. But I think the loyalty comment can be viewed
with no Voldemort factor in it at all, and it works fine.

>  Secondly, Voldemort didn't trust Snape enough in PS/SS to let him
> learn the fact that he's occupying Quirrel's body, suggesting that
> Voldemort is at least uncertain about Snape's loyalty.

Well, heck yeah. Voldemort's in no position to find out whether he is
correct about Snape. You find that sort of thing out when you are in a
position of strength, not the precarious existence he has in PS/SS.
Voldemort isn't sure Snape's not his, but he's sure not going to ask
right now.

> 2. The three missing DE: The coward, the left forever and the Most
> faithful servant.  The automatic fit would be: Karkaroff--the coward;
> Crouch jr.--MFS; Snape--left forever.

Yeah. The creepy thought strikes me, every time I write how Snape could
convince Voldemort of his loyalty, that Snape might actually *be* loyal.
What I type as his "line" to Voldemort might be true. I remember that
Dumbledore looked apprehensive. Because Snape might indeed return to
Voldemort's service? How ooky. But I still think Crouch JR. is the
faithful one, didn't Voldemort refer to Crouch Jr. specifically as that?

There's been really, really good arguments for Snape = coward and
Karkaroff = left forever, but Voldemort's comments seem to leave room
for either to return if they want to face the music. Both roles would
require some really good explaining, but it could be done.

> 3. Harry has openly mused about the possibility.  According to MMM's
> third rule of HP, Harry or Ron's speculation about Snape is always
> wrong because JKR gets her kick out of misleading us about Snape
> through Harry.

This is the kicker. I can temper this, though, with the thought that JKR
only gets us used to absolutes in order to break them. She might well
put in a valid observation just to mess us up.
AND this musing occurs to Harry, as Harry sits there contemplating Snape
in that new, mature, dispassionate way. Seeing Snape differently.
Perhaps his observations of Snape, his "take" on him, has matured
sufficiently for him to make an accurate assessment?

> (BTW, the first rule is NEVER, NEVER under any circumstances, name or
> allow your son to be named after yourself.  Witness Tom Riddle, Barty
> Crouch.)

Yeah, if I'd named either of my sons Amanda it might have really messed
them up.

> Spy enthusiasts's rebuttal

covered a lot of what I said but after all that typing I sent it anyway.

> I think it is very, very likely that Snape was the one informing
> Dumbledore about the Potters. (Wait till Harry finds out,can you
> imagine the shock?)

I think so, too, especially after that office confrontation scene in
PoA.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sun May  6 02:42:26 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 02:42:26 -0000
Subject: In defence(?!) of Draco
In-Reply-To: <20010506011045.265.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d2dmi+2op9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18237

Someone wrote:
"Can anyone think of *anything* redeemable that Draco has done within 
the four books? It seems to me that Draco is emphatically in the Dark 
Lord camp and quite happy to be there. Anyone have any views on this?"

Magda wrote:
"Draco Malfoy is a stupid, snotty little git who's too dumb to really
understand what the Dark Side is."

--No, no, no!! I readily agree that Draco is snotty, and a git, and a 
bigot, among other things, but he IS NOT dumb or stupid (IMO). He's 
too ignorant about the Dark Side to understand what it is, not too 
dumb. I also happen to think Draco is quite intelligent and would be 
real academic competition for Hermione if he applied himself, but 
that's beside the point I'm trying to make here. Draco knows what the 
Dark Side is, but he doesn't *know* about the Dark Side (DS). (Does 
that make sense?) As you said:

"I think he sees it as some kind of weekend country party where 
everyone swoops around in ultra-cool black robes and his father is in 
charge of everything.  If he had seen Lucius cringing in front of the 
returned Lord V. in GoF, he would have been genuinely shocked."

--Right. Draco's veiw of the DS is far removed from its reality. He 
does condone the violence of Cedric's death, the torturing of muggles 
etc., but he's yet to actually participate. He talks big but is it 
really anything more than talk? I just don't think he's irredemable, 
yet. (That doesn't mean I think he will definitely turn good though.)

"He enjoys inflicting pain without opening himself to the risk of
retaliation, hence the ever-present Goyle and Crabbe.  When Hermoine
lays a five-finger salute on him in class, he is helpless because you
can't smack a girl.  Maybe that's why he starts hanging out with
Pansy Parkinson.  She can hit Hermione for him."

--Exactly. He doesn't do much more than talk, and he lets other 
people do the dirty work. BTW, he *could* hit Hermione, but he 
didn't. Does this show moral fiber? Not really but at least he 
doesn't hit girls...

"I agree that he's getting almost boring in his hatefulness but I
don't think there's a lot of ambition or get-up-and-go in Draco.  He
expects to be handed things on a platter."

--So Draco doesn't have much ambition, eh? I agree but then why on 
Earth is he in Syltherin? Besides the fact that he wanted to be.   

"And the problem with Draco repenting and turning good is that
SOMEBODY has to be on the Dark Side and if everyone reforms it just
won't be much fun when the retribution is handed out."

--What a horrible thing to say about Draco. Seriously though I'm sure 
he'll get his comeuppence either way, but he can still make a 
decision for good or evil. There are plenty of people of evil people 
without Draco.

*looks back over post*
 
I can't believe that I'm (sort of) taking up for Draco! (Canon no 
less!!!) I think I may've been exposed to WAY too many leather 
trousers.

Scott

> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From editor at texas.net  Sun May  6 02:48:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:48:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands and their cores & missing wands
References: <9cus76+vrus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF4BB65.BE5591A6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18238

nera at rconnect.com wrote:

> Speaking of missing wands:
> 1) what happened to James' wand,

I imagine it was destroyed in whatever destroyed their house, or buried
with him.

> 2) Lily's wand,

Ditto.

> 3) Pettigrew's wand when he turned into a rat, or any animagi really,

Presumably the same thing that happens to their clothes and jewelry and
money and stuff. The spell seems to include one's immediate "stuff" (I
doubt it would take things like purses, but stuff on one's person like
rings and clothes seem to be included as part of the "self"
transforming).

> 4) Voldemort's wand when he lost his physical form,

Multiple speculation. I give most credence to the thought that some
supporter of Voldemort's either accompanied him (he was, after all,
going to face two people of apparently considerable power) and retrieved
the wand, or showed up right after and got it before anyone else
arrived.

> 5) the prisoners wands when they are sent to Azkaban,

I bet they're destroyed.

> 6) Neville's parents' wands when they went to the hospital,

I bet the family is keeping those, in the forlorn hope that they might
someday recover, or just to remember them by.

> Speaking of Neville, why doesn't he have a wand?

I'm thinking you must mean, why haven't we heard what his wand
composition is? Because all the students have wands, they have to.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun May  6 02:57:10 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:57:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
References: <9ctpii+cqua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF4BD86.619164A8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18239

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Bertha Jorkins found out that Crouch Snr was hiding Crouch jnr in his
> house.  Therefore Crouch Snr put a memory charm on Bertha - it was
> this that Voldemort broke through.  What puzzles me though, is how did
> he know what to ask??

Probably he was first intrigued that a memory charm had been put on her
at all, and wanted to know why. Especially since she worked with an old
enemy and the father of a follower. Then presumably the answers she
gave, during questioning, led him to more and more drastic efforts until
she was, *ahem,* "damaged."

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sun May  6 03:13:11 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 03:13:11 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d2bag+d2ds@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d2fg7+5ta5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18240

Jenny wrote:
Why is everyone single?  I have my own opinions about it, but I'd
like to hear others' thoughts.

Amy wrote:
"Jo did recently say that the teachers' marital status is significant 
and will come up.  Does anyone want to venture a theory about what 
that might mean?"

--I thought of this too, but I'm not entirely sure what she meant by 
it, though my money's on Snape. I don't think he's married, but he 
may have been in the past. Here's a thouhgt- could V. have killed 
Snape's wife (whomever she may have been) for some reason and that's 
why he became a spy for Dumbledore?


Amy wrote:
"Okay, there are a lot of frumps (Sprout), over-70's (Dumble, 
McGonagall, Flitwick), and plain old scaries (Trelawney), but what 
about Lockhart, Lupin, and Quirrell?  There's no comment on Lupin's 
or Quirrell's attractiveness or lack thereof, just that they're 
young, and we know Lupin is a favorite teacher of many, which one 
would think would lead to some crushes.  Lockhart, we know, is 
supposed to be a bit of a hunk.  Don't the students wonder whether 
these guys are married, have girlfriends, etc.?  And they'd probably 
be curious about the older teachers' kids, if not their marriages."

--Not a good group to have crushes on, huh? As for Harry et al even 
if they aren't curious enough to find out then they're likely not to 
know. In my own experience with teachers I've had some whose 
relationships I never knew, to teachers whose relationships I knew 
(and often I saw and knew them on another level besides school) to 
teachers whose weddings I've attended. It all really depends on the 
level of personal involvement a student has with that teacher, and 
the only teachers Harry really knows out of class are Hagrid and 
Lupin, and neither of those is married. I don't think it's all that 
suprising that we don't know, but I think we'll hear more on this in 
the future.
 
Scott





From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 03:35:36 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Lizzie)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 03:35:36 -0000
Subject: Father-Son Names
Message-ID: <9d2gq8+gdus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18241

>MMMfanfic at hotmail.com
 >(BTW, the first rule is NEVER, NEVER under any circumstances, name 
>or allow your son to be named after yourself.  Witness Tom Riddle, 
>Barty Crouch.)

Good point. JKR could be trying to prejudice us against sons who are 
named after their fathers. But then what are we supposed to do 
about...*drumroll please*...Harry James Potter? Now there's a 
starting point for theories which will turn the Potterverse on its 
head. For one - and I know I'm going out on a limb here - but what if 
Harry follows in the grand tradition of namesakes and goes bad 
himself??? *runs to hide from all the curses, jinxes, howlers and 
baseball bats that she is sure are coming her way* I know, I detest 
the idea as well, and frankly don't think he could go bad. But it 
would be an interesting end to the series, from a literary POV. I'd 
be interested to hear the opinions of others on this, and also can 
anyone think of any other books with father/son names as a kind of 
theme?

Of course, perhaps those with their fathers names as a middle name 
are the exact opposite of straight-out namesakes. (Phew. Nice save)

Lizzy. 




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 03:42:15 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia de Lobo)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:42:15 -0500
Subject: Newbie! (but no to HP)
References: <989000012.1413.42894.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <011e01c0d5de$8b06ab60$9e21c280@resnet.tamu.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18242

Hi! My name is Neth, and I'm a 20 year old college student at Texas A&M. I
have been lurking on the list a while (bad Neth!) but decided to make my
debut. (Hehe...Harry's a little older than me! I was born in 1980.) I'm not
really a newbie to Harry Potter, per se. I bought the first book in hardback
because my Child's lit assigned the first two books and I had been curious
myself since summer 2000. I got hooked and bought all four books in
hardback, and own the two Comic Relief ones too.

Hope I blend well with you all. ^.^

--Neth

**Draco dormiens nunquam titilandus.**


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sun May  6 03:48:59 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 03:48:59 -0000
Subject: Goblin Rebellions and Sirius' Money Vault?
In-Reply-To: <20010506015200.14402.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d2hjb+ucri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18243

Amber questioned:
"Now why would the goblins in Gringotts allow someone besides the 
owner of the money to access their money? Sure, Sirius probably sent 
his key to his vault, but wouldn't someone question why Harry Potter 
would have the key? Wouldn't someone at Gringotts make the connection 
that it was actually Sirius who sent the order? I mean, considering 
the security that Gringotts is supposed to have, it seems rather odd 
that nobody would find any of this strange or halt the payment."

--Well we've postulated on this before, and I could give you message 
numbers, but that is such a pain, so I'll just give you my thoughts...

The Goblins obviously don't care about the goings-on of wizarding 
society. (It does state this somewhere in FB right?) They've been 
likened to Swiss banks. A criminal can withdraw money and no one's 
going to question it. The goblin's are very apathetic so if they did 
notice they didn't care. (That is how the theory goes...I think.)

Now that we're are talking about Goblins- I was flipping through QttA 
today and found yet another example of rebellion. 

>From "Bring Back Our Baskets!" The Daily Prophet, 12 Feb 1883

"...At this point the Departmental representative was forced to 
retreat under a hail of baskets thrown bt the angry demonstrators 
assemlbed in the hall. Although the ensuing riot was later blamed on 
goblin agitators there can be no doubt that the Quidditch fans across 
Britain are tonight mourning the end of the game as we know it."

So why do Goblins seem to have the constant urge to egg on riots? I 
mean why would they even care about Quidditch? Besides the fact that 
they are betting. 

This brings us back to Amanda's theories that underpaid goblins would 
bring about V.'s downfall.

Hmmm...

Scott







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 03:57:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 03:57:10 -0000
Subject: Single? Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d2fg7+5ta5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d2i2m+cqs3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18244

Scott wrote:

> the only teachers Harry really knows out of class are Hagrid and 
> Lupin, and neither of those is married.

It appears that this is the case, but on the other hand, I think this 
is exactly the kind of thing JKR was throwing into doubt.  We don't 
know that Lupin isn't married (::covers ears as wild howls 
of "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" erupt among Lupinlovers::).  We 
know Hagrid isn't, because we see into his house all the time, and 
besides, he's now dating, which would be a very uncool thing to do if 
he had a wife stashed away somewhere.  For the others, I'm never even 
clear on whether the professors live in the castle or not; I believe 
Snape and Lupin are both referred to somewhere as living in their 
offices, creating an image in my mind of a sort of suite consisting 
of office (frequently open to students) and apartments (stay out if 
you know what's good for you).  But even if they do, they can't =all= 
be unmarried, can they?--despite all appearances (e.g. no spouses or 
kids ever seem to show up for meals, the way they do at the boarding 
schools I'm familiar with)?  

Unless there is some reason they are all single, and that's the 
mysterious marital issue JKR is going to get around to explaining.  
It's also possible that the families live in Hogsmeade or elsewhere.  
Commuting is a lot simpler in the wizarding world, even if you work 
at Hogwarts and have to duck outside the grounds before you can 
Apparate home.

I know we've talked about the whole living-arrangement, marital-
status thing in the not-too-distant past, but darn it, I still don't 
have it sorted out.

Amy Z
who apparently needs to get a life




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 04:54:07 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d2bag+d2ds@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010506045407.16708.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18245


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, there are a lot of frumps (Sprout), over-70's (Dumble, 
> McGonagall, Flitwick), and plain old scaries (Trelawney), but what 
> about Lockhart, Lupin, and Quirrell?  There's no comment on Lupin's 
> or Quirrell's attractiveness or lack thereof, just that they're 
> young, and we know Lupin is a favorite teacher of many, which one 
> would think would lead to some crushes.  Lockhart, we know, is 
> supposed to be a bit of a hunk.  Don't the students wonder whether 
> these guys are married, have girlfriends, etc.?  And they'd probably 
> be curious about the older teachers' kids, if not their marriages.

<grin> I must be abnormal, I *never* thought about my teacher's "love
lives". It was just something that I never concerned myself with, even
when I was in college. I only saw the teacher for lessons, why would I
wonder about marital status? I just assumed it was the same with the
Hogwart's students. Although, the situation is different. The students
live with their teachers during term while I went home from school
every day. 

~Amber


=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 05:07:14 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:07:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goblin Rebellions and Sirius' Money Vault?
In-Reply-To: <9d2hjb+ucri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010506050714.25500.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18246


--- Scott <insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > Sure, Sirius probably sent 
> > his key to his vault, but wouldn't someone question why Harry
Potter 
> > would have the key? Wouldn't someone at Gringotts make the
> > connection that it was actually Sirius who sent the order? 
>
> The Goblins obviously don't care about the goings-on of wizarding 
> society. (It does state this somewhere in FB right?) They've been 
> likened to Swiss banks. A criminal can withdraw money and no one's 
> going to question it. The goblin's are very apathetic so if they did 
> notice they didn't care. (That is how the theory goes...I think.)

But I was under the impression that Crookshanks took the order to the
Owl Office, which delivered it to the company that makes Firebolts, and
they requested the funds from Gringotts. The company that makes the
Firebolts wouldn't be apathetic, would they? Wouldn't the person
processing the order think, "Hey, this kid Harry Potter (whom everybody
in the wizarding world knows) has the key to Sirius Black's vault (whom
everybody in the wizarding world knows as a convicted murdered).
There's something fishy about this." 

I guess in my original question, I should've not said "Gringotts" but
the Firebolt company. 

~Amber


=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From deeblite at home.com  Sun May  6 05:21:12 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 01:21:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion (was: Snape the spy)
In-Reply-To: <9d23d7+rk0t@eGroups.com>
References: <3AF45729.D5A8A003@erols.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010506011713.016d50e0@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18247

At 11:46 PM 5/5/01 +0000, you wrote:
>There are a few problems with Snape as polyjuiced Crouch jr:
>1. Time Constraint.  Whatever he was sent to do by Dumbledore, it was
>agreed prior to The Dementor's Kiss.  Dumbledore didn't find out
>about Crouch until the Hospital wing scene.
>2. Too huge a risk.  Polyjuice only lasts for an hour.  (umm, I need
>a drink, Master...)
>3. Crouch used this to impersonate Moody.  JKR is more inventive than
>this.

( Hi, this is my first post =D )

He could always go off pretending to be Crouch Jr. still in the moody 
disguise.   Spend only short time with Voldemort- as Moody- claiming he's 
continuing the charade and acting as a double agent for voldemort while 
REALLY acting as a double agent for Dumbledore..   of course that all gets 
REALLY confusing.


Or maybe i'm just crazy






From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May  6 06:02:16 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:02:16 -0000
Subject: Father-Son Names
In-Reply-To: <9d2gq8+gdus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d2pd8+a6uo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18248

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lizzie" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
> >MMMfanfic at h...
>  >(BTW, the first rule is NEVER, NEVER under any circumstances, 
name 
> >or allow your son to be named after yourself.  Witness Tom Riddle, 
> >Barty Crouch.)

<snip>

> Of course, perhaps those with their fathers names as a middle name 
> are the exact opposite of straight-out namesakes. (Phew. Nice save)
> 
> Lizzy.

*************************************
We know that Harry's middle name is James, after his father.

How do we know that James' name is *not* Harry James Potter, and that 
he did not choose to go by his second name? This is often done, 
especially if James (Harry's dad) were also named after *his* father 
(Harry's grandfather).

Does it give James' middle name anywhere? If not, this definitely 
*is* a possibility. 

Doreen, who, upon meeting her birth mother, asked her where she got 
the horrible name, "Doreen" and learned that it was her mother's 
middle name. :)
***************************************




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May  6 06:09:13 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:09:13 -0000
Subject: Newbie! (but no to HP)
In-Reply-To: <011e01c0d5de$8b06ab60$9e21c280@resnet.tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <9d2pqa+fhkm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18249

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Nethilia de Lobo" <nethilia at y...> wrote:
> Hi! My name is Neth, and I'm a 20 year old college student at Texas 
A&M. I
> have been lurking on the list a while (bad Neth!) but decided to 
make my
> debut. (Hehe...Harry's a little older than me! I was born in 1980.) 
I'm not
> really a newbie to Harry Potter, per se. I bought the first book in 
hardback
> because my Child's lit assigned the first two books and I had been 
curious
> myself since summer 2000. I got hooked and bought all four books in
> hardback, and own the two Comic Relief ones too.
> 
> Hope I blend well with you all. ^.^
> 
> --Neth
> 
> **Draco dormiens nunquam titilandus.**
********************************************
Welcome Neth!

The first thing is that you got hooked on Harry. The second is that 
you are now posting. You even have an HP sig. My bet is that you will 
fit in just fine. 

Jump in with questions, answers, opinions whenever the mood or the 
thread strikes you.

Did you Child's Lit class discuss the HP books in class? Did they 
have some insights that you have not seen here? I, for one, would 
love to hear what they had to say about the series or about JKR or 
what have you. Can you share?

Doreen, who has discussions about HP with children while the parents 
would like to get on with the food ordering. 
**********************************************




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May  6 06:22:59 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:22:59 -0000
Subject: Draco
In-Reply-To: <20010505235814.17433.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d2qk3+1kc3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18250

Can anyone think of *anything*
> redeemable that Draco has done within the four books? 
> ~Amber

*****************************
I still say that Draco, in a way so as to not appear to be going 
against his father, warned Hermione at the Quidditch Cup. He told her 
that she better not hang around or she might be next. I still think 
it sounded like taunting, but it was a disguised warning because, in 
spite of his dad's opinions about Muggle-borns, Draco has formed his 
own opinion about Hermione.

Haven't similar situations occurred within other bigoted families? 
The children mimic the parents' and spout, as their own, the views 
which they hear repeated at home. Then, they get to know one of the 
*target victims* in a personal way, and start to question the 
validity of their parents' way of thinking.

Good grief! I am starting to sound like a D/H shipper.

Doreen, who waited so long for her ship to come in that her pier 
collapsed.
******************************************





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun May  6 06:53:34 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 08:53:34 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' Money Vault?
In-Reply-To: <20010506015200.14402.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOEFLCEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 18251

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amber [mailto:reanna20 at yahoo.com]

> Heigh-ho, I've just thought of something! Sirius sent Harry the
> Firebolt, right? In POA, it says:
> 
> "Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name
> but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault." (POA, pg
> 433)

This is another interesting difference between the US and the UK version,
because the UK version mentions the number of his vault:

"I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault
number seven hundred and eleven - my own." (p. 466, Bloomsbury
paperback, and it is also in the audio version read by Stephen Fry.)

I know that this has been discussed before, but I still think there's a
reason why JKR mentions the number of the vault. We know that vault
number 713 (the one from which Hagrid took the philosopher's stone)
is a high security vault. I have been told before that the vaults at Gringotts
might not be numbered in an "ordinary" way, but I still believe that
vault no. 711 is a high security vault, too.

> Now why would the goblins in Gringotts allow someone besides the owner
> of the money to access their money? Sure, Sirius probably sent his key
> to his vault, but wouldn't someone question why Harry Potter would have
> the key? Wouldn't someone at Gringotts make the connection that it was
> actually Sirius who sent the order? I mean, considering the security
> that Gringotts is supposed to have, it seems rather odd that nobody
> would find any of this strange or halt the payment.
> 
> Or maybe I'm just questioning this too closely. Am I the only one who
> finds this fishy?

No, you aren't. But I believe (as someone else has pointed out) that
the goblins have a mentality similar to Swiss bankers. They don't
care if you are a wanted criminal as long as you have the key or the
password. What I find fishy is the key for Sirius' vault. Where did he
keep it while he was in Azkaban? IMO you don't need a key to open
vault no. 711, this should be one of those vaults that can only be
opened by a goblin like vault no. 713. And anyone who would try to
break into it would get trapped. So IMO Sirius only had to give the
goblins his password to open the vault (or whatever authorization
you need to open a high security vault, Hagrid had a letter from
Dumbledore to access vault no. 713). After twelve years this makes
a lot more sense to me than to have him sending the key to the
goblins. It also raises the interesting question what he keeps in this
vault apart from his gold.

Just my two knuts.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 





From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu  Sun May  6 07:43:21 2001
From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 03:43:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Promoting the HPFGU Contest!
In-Reply-To: <9cqles+lq8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0105060328350.25282-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18252

Hey hey!

Jenny Elf here, with a special message for all you newbies out there in
HPFGU land...  

We all know how amazingly well some of our older members know the
books...  But if you'd like to show us all how smart our newbies can be
too (and I know you are!), then why not participate in the HPFGU
contest?  :)

No purchase necessary! Open to all HPFGU members! In fact, all you have
to do is answer the questions Jowitch posted a few days ago.  Simple,
simple, simple!  Yes, siree!  Why, it's the gosh-darned plumb easiest
thing you'll probably do all day.

Send your answers to the contest email address HP4GUCon at aol.com before
midnight Tuesday, and Joywitch'll keep track of those who get all of
those questions right.  No looking at the books, mind, and don't send
your answers to the list (or it's no fun for the rest of us!)!

Well, newbies, what are you still reading this email for, hmm?  Go enter
the contest.  Hop to, young'ns! :)  Time's a-wastin'!  I want to see
some newbie names on that list of those successfully completing the
contest! :)

--jenny elf, who knew the answers to but a pitiful half of the contest
questions.  :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun May  6 08:24:26 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 08:24:26 -0000
Subject: Various Topics, Including Spy Snape and Speculative Sexy Sirius
In-Reply-To: <3AF48F91.7FD811D6@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9d31nq+5tkf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18253

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> Monika wrote::
> > > When he talked to Harry via long-distance fire in
> > > Gryffindor Tower he was apparently not living on
> > > rats at the time, and had even managed to get a haircut.
> > I always wondered where he was during that time. He had
> > been back to England for a few weeks (since he came
> > back in October and he met Harry in the Gryffindor
> > common room in November). Where did he stay then?
> 
> I like to imagine that he was staying with Remus, in an isolated 
cottage
> or cabin suitable for depressed werewolves to sulk in. Speculation 
on
> whether Remus owned, rented, or borrowed the cottage, from whom he
> borrowed it (Dumbledore? or it came with a job as watchman over some
> deserted antiquity or beast preserve?) or how he came to own it
> (Inheritance? Purchase? With what money?) and when he came to own 
it.


If this is the case and he is staying with Remus, then why does he 
have to sneak into a wizarding household in order to use their 
fireplace?   I think that he looks healthier and less unkempt because 
he has only recently returned from foreign climes, and hasn't been 
living rough for long.

Catherine




From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri May  4 16:28:15 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:28:15 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] interesting Lexicon thing has been happening lately
Message-ID: <LAW2-F147ubxcbz37cf00000ae5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18254

Bill 'em


>From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at bccs.org>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] interesting Lexicon thing has been happening 
>lately
>Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:48:53 -0000
>
>Hey, just thought I'd throw this past all of you and get reactions:
>
>Lately, several times a day, the Lexicon has been visited by someone
>from Electronic Arts. As we all know, they're the ones doing the
>online and computer games which promise to allow users/players to
>more fully explore the universe of Harry Potter. I have to admit that
>my initial reaction to these plans was that it would seriously mess
>up the vision that we have from the books themselves -- they would
>frankly be inventing a LOT of things for themselves and I really
>don't like the idea of Electronic Arts creating "official" Harry
>Potter information.
>
>But they're using the Lexicon, it would seem. So does that mean that
>they're honestly trying to be true to the books? Or am I just saving
>them time and money on research and should I be billing them? And
>what are the chances that I get credit for any of this on the games?
>
>Steve Vander Ark
>unpaid research slave of Electronic Arts
>The Harry Potter Lexicon
>http://www.i2k.com~svderark/lexicon
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 11:22:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 11:22:59 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <20010506045407.16708.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d3c6j+ca3h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18255

Amber, who seems perfectly normal to me, wrote:

> <grin> I must be abnormal, I *never* thought about my 
teacher's "love
> lives". It was just something that I never concerned myself with, 
even
> when I was in college. I only saw the teacher for lessons, why 
would I
> wonder about marital status? I just assumed it was the same with the
> Hogwart's students. Although, the situation is different. The 
students
> live with their teachers during term while I went home from school
> every day. 

Yeah, I should've said that during the time my students were so 
obsessed with my and my colleagues' romances, I was teaching at 
boarding school, so they saw us all eat most of our meals, lived in 
the same buildings with us, etc.  You certainly couldn't have someone 
spend the night without every kid in the dorm knowing it.  I'm sure 
they wouldn't have given it a thought if they'd only seen their 
teachers in class.

Amy Z




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 10:36:15 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 03:36:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mad-Eye's Unforgivable Class and other thoughts
In-Reply-To: <002201c0d51a$96b6c400$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <20010506103615.69471.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18256

> IM ever so HO, crouch slipped up at least once, before the third
> task -- like the boomslang skin and **other object whose name
> escapes me at the moment** stolen from Snape's office --
> ingredients for a polyjuice potion.  wouldn't dumbledore hear about
> something like that?  after all, snape encountered filch while
> wandering around, and complained that someone was in his office. 
> if snape didn't say anything to dumbledore, filch most definately
> would.  

But when Snape confronted Mad-Eye/Crouch in the hallway at night and
accused him of searching his office, M-E/C brazenly admitted it and
implied he had Dumbledore's approval.  I got the impression that
Snape was too unsettled by the idea of Dumbledore not trusting him to
go to Dumbledore to complain.  M-E/C pushes his advantage by
suggesting that Dumbledore wants to know who's out to get Harry
through the Tri-Wizard Tournament and that Snape might be that
person.  Snape actually makes an effort to get himself under control
at that point.  He's very sensitive to M-E/C's comments about marks
that don't come off, etc.

So M-E/C certainly has the guts to carry out any subtle plans he
might have.

And wasn't the second ingredient gillyweed?  Didn't Dobby steal that
so Harry wouldn't drown in the lake saving his "Weazy"?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun May  6 13:08:39 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 13:08:39 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d3c6j+ca3h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d3icn+6vqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18257

Amy Z wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I should've said that during the time my students were so 
> obsessed with my and my colleagues' romances, I was teaching at 
> boarding school, so they saw us all eat most of our meals, lived in 
> the same buildings with us, etc.  You certainly couldn't have 
someone 
> spend the night without every kid in the dorm knowing it.  I'm sure 
> they wouldn't have given it a thought if they'd only seen their 
> teachers in class.

I agree with you that students are interested in their teachers' 
social lives, but trust me, just seeing them day to day sparks their 
interests too.  My high school students not only often ask me about my 
boyfriend, but I have been asked out several times by students 
themselves!

My personal theory about the apparent singleness of most of the adults 
in HP is simply that if they all had their own families to deal with, 
they wouldn't be as focused on Harry as they are.  If Sirius had a 
wife, for example, wouldn't he first go looking for her instead of 
Scabbers at Hogwarts?  It is also clever of JKR to not make much of 
the professors' social lives because (and I think someone mentioned 
this) it would take away from our focus on Harry, his friends, his 
adventures and his interest in girls.  

Besides, the day it is revealed that Sirius' heart belongs to some 
lovely witch is the day many hearts here at HPforGrownups will be 
broken.  Now I don't think JKR wants that on her back, does she?  :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw*********************************




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 13:14:29 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 13:14:29 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d22nh+3n20@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d3inl+q165@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18258

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> I mean, shouldn't Dumbledore have experienced love - did he ever 
have 
> a wife or children?  Or McGonagall? 


We don't know if either of the above characters were married or not.  
I could definitely picture Dumbledore as the married type with 
children.  JKR has admitted that some professors have been or are 
married and that it is too important to talk about right now.


 There are rumors about Snape falling in love in the next few 
> books.  


I believe that rumor comes from an interview JKR gave and she never 
said Snape would fall in love.  It can be taken to mean he was in 
love, he is in love, or he will fall in love.


Koinonia





From nethilia at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 10:10:14 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia de Lobo)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 05:10:14 -0500
Subject: Yay, college HP
References: <989138161.539.71588.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <01b001c0d614$bec2c7a0$9e21c280@resnet.tamu.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18259

>>: nera at rconnect.com:
Did you Child's Lit class discuss the HP books in class? Did they
have some insights that you have not seen here? I, for one, would
love to hear what they had to say about the series or about JKR or
what have you. Can you share?
>>

We mostly talked about it as a literary work and Harry's growing up. WE also
compared it to Lord Of the Rings, The Narnia Chronicles, and Alice in
Wonderland (I've read all but LOTR). We only did the first two however,
which blew cause I knew all the secrets. However, my prof read all four, so
we discussed it after class. We also talked about that outrageous lawsuit
(what a loat of bull-oney). My final Tuesday will have a lot about it. I
personally, like speculation into the future, and want to see how the movie
blends with the book (and to whine if good stuff gets cut!)

--Neth

**Draco dormiens nunquam titilandus.**


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May  6 14:12:20 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 14:12:20 -0000
Subject: Sirius' Money Vault?
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOEFLCEAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9d3m44+o1s7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18260

 After twelve years this makes
> a lot more sense to me than to have him sending the key to the
> goblins. It also raises the interesting question what he keeps in 
this
> vault apart from his gold.
> 
> Just my two knuts.
> 
> Monika
*******************************************
My thoughts are that since he was the first on the scene after James 
& Lily were killed, is that he keeps their wands and other mementos 
in there for Harry.

Doreen, still obsessed by the missing wands thing
*********************************************





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May  6 14:16:05 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 14:16:05 -0000
Subject: Speculative Sexy Sirius 
In-Reply-To: <9d31nq+5tkf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d3mb5+lje8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18261

Didn't Sirius send an exotic bird with a message for Harry? That 
meant, to me, that he was in some tropical place, unless he got the 
bird at a pet shop.

Doreen

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> > Monika wrote::
> > > > When he talked to Harry via long-distance fire in
> > > > Gryffindor Tower he was apparently not living on
> > > > rats at the time, and had even managed to get a haircut.
> > > I always wondered where he was during that time. He had
> > > been back to England for a few weeks (since he came
> > > back in October and he met Harry in the Gryffindor
> > > common room in November). Where did he stay then?
> > 
> > I like to imagine that he was staying with Remus, in an isolated 
> cottage
> > or cabin suitable for depressed werewolves to sulk in. 
Speculation 
> on
> > whether Remus owned, rented, or borrowed the cottage, from whom he
> > borrowed it (Dumbledore? or it came with a job as watchman over 
some
> > deserted antiquity or beast preserve?) or how he came to own it
> > (Inheritance? Purchase? With what money?) and when he came to own 
> it.
> 
> 
> If this is the case and he is staying with Remus, then why does he 
> have to sneak into a wizarding household in order to use their 
> fireplace?   I think that he looks healthier and less unkempt 
because 
> he has only recently returned from foreign climes, and hasn't been 
> living rough for long.
> 
> Catherine




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May  6 14:24:31 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 14:24:31 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <3AF4B4EA.70C470A0@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9d3mqv+ivhh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18262

****************************************
My question in all this discussion about Snape vs Quirrel, is how did 
Snape know about the Philosopher's Stone in the first place?

Doreen, going back to the book to look
****************************************


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > I think Snape's comment about where his loyalties lay is the
> > clincher: Snape thinks Quirrel wants the Stone to give to V.
> > Quirrel's less-than-spectacular comeback to that comment would be
> > enough to wipe away Snape's doubts.
> 
> Actually, I don't think Snape knows that Quirrell's working for
> Voldemort. I think that Snape is mightily offended that Quirrell is
> working against Dumbledore in trying to steal the stone. Dumbledore
> might have given Quirrell a break in the same way he has many 
others,
> and it seems to me that it would really offend something in Snape's
> character for such ungratefulness and/or disloyalty.
> 
> I still think that Snape can explain this to Voldemort, as (a) he,
> Snape, had no idea he was obstructing the Master's plan, he begs
> forgiveness, and (b) Snape was, as always, working in his Master's
> interests in retaining and cementing Dumbledore's trust in him by
> thwarting Quirrell, who as far as Snape knew was taking the stone 
from a
> known place where Snape could at any time take it for Voldemort's 
use.
> Voldemort would doubtless give him some pain, but I think Snape 
could
> sell this bill of goods and come out alive and trusted by Voldemort 
to
> be his contact at Hogwarts.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sun May  6 14:32:24 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 10:32:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possible Discrepancy in PS
References: <9d3mqv+ivhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF56078.E18C8D94@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 18263

Hello All!!!!!

nera at rconnect.com wrote:

> ****************************************
> My question in all this discussion about Snape vs Quirrel, is how did
> Snape know about the Philosopher's Stone in the first place?
>
> Doreen, going back to the book to look
> ****************************************

Okay, here's my theory. Snape, being a potions master, would know about a lot of wierd potion substances and the like. Perhaps during the research of something else, he stumbled upon work about the Philosopher's Stone.

Dumbledore seems to trust Snape a lot, so perhaps Dumbledore took Snape into confidence. My view is that all the teachers who participated in the guarding of the Stone knew what they were guarding.

Just MHO...

Hugs to all
Jamieson

--

"Westley and I are joined by the bonds of love,
and you cannot track it, not with a thousand
blood houds. And you cannot break it, not with a
thousand swords. And when I say you are a
coward, it is only because you are the slimiest
 weakling ever to crawl the earth!" - Buttercup
from 'The Princess Bride'

"There is a shortage of very perfect breasts in this world.
It would be a pity to damage yours." -
Wesley in The Princess Bride





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 13:26:37 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 06:26:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <9d2a6c+6hc5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010506132637.76796.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18264

> I'm intrigued by the Snape-impersonates-Harry idea, but if he
> turned into Harry, then what did he do?  Go to Voldemort and thumb 
> his nose?  Whoever posted this idea, I'd love to hear more.


If, as JKR intimated, Harry will be exploring other magical places,
then he will spend more time away from Hogwarts.  Snape might
impersonate Harry at school so that no one knows he is gone (opening
up some interesting opportunities for comedy if an unsuspecting Ron
casually suggests some rule-breaking and a rules-obsessed Snape/HP
has to struggle with himself before answering).  

On the other hand, Snape/HP might undertake trips away from Hogwarts
to act as decoy for the real Harry.

Obviously as Harry gets older, he becomes more of a threat to
Voldemort and as Voldemort gets stronger, he becomes more of a threat
to everybody.  V. has shown he can endanger Harry at Hogwarts, albeit
not without effort, so protecting Harry is going to get more
difficult.  The Big Battle is looming on the horizon and everybody is
running risks.  

I disagree with the idea that Snape's task was something he did that
night and then returned for the banquet.  If he went to see V., he
certainly wouldn't have found him in a very good mood and while he
might claim that he was too busy to appear right away when he was
summoned, it would not be a good time.  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Sun May  6 15:32:34 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 10:32:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yay, college HP
References: <989138161.539.71588.l10@yahoogroups.com> <01b001c0d614$bec2c7a0$9e21c280@resnet.tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <3AF56E92.E066F6DD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18265

Nethilia de Lobo wrote:

> We mostly talked about it as a literary work and Harry's growing up.
> WE also compared it to Lord Of the Rings, The Narnia Chronicles, and
> Alice in Wonderland (I've read all but LOTR). We only did the first
> two however, which blew cause I knew all the secrets. However, my prof
> read all four, so we discussed it after class. We also talked about
> that outrageous lawsuit (what a loat of bull-oney). My final Tuesday
> will have a lot about it. I personally, like speculation into the
> future, and want to see how the movie
> blends with the book (and to whine if good stuff gets cut!)

My heavens, a decent lit class of any kind at A&M? The stars are
aligning, the temperature in Hell is dropping....

Neth, get yourself over to the HP4GU-Texas group and join; we want to do
a gathering in November or thereabouts, and a central location like
Austin or your own balmy locale had been bandied about. Any other newbie
Texans, you too!

--Amanda, herself a onetime liberal arts major at A&M who knows whereof
she speaks (anthropology, don't ask)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meckelburg at foni.net  Sun May  6 15:41:12 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 15:41:12 -0000
Subject: DADA-Exam results!
Message-ID: <9d3rao+d938@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18266

 Here are the results of the DADA-Exam! Those who did respond all did 
extremely well. Though I'm not sure if my "no-cheating"- Charm worked 
too well. I'm sure some people did use the books for help, but I can't 
prove it.
Most people did say it was too long, ( Sorry <g>)so I will take out my 
favourite butcher's knife and chop it into more convenient pieces. It 
will then be copied to the contest- mailbox, where it may be used 
again in a couple of months.


1) Which charm do you use to remove chewing-gum out of a key-hole?- 
Waddiwasi

2) What does Gilderoy Lockhart use to trap a           Ghoul? - a 
Tea-strainer

3) Describe Kappas! - water-demons
3.1) What do they look like? - monkeys with fish scales; hollow on top 
of his head,filled with water
3.2) Where do you find them?- Japan; shallow ponds
3.2) Explain their behaviour?- Feeds on human blood, though a cucumber 
with the persons name on it is accepted instead of his blood
3.4) How do you beat them? - convince him to bow, the water flows out, 
the Kappa looses its power

4) Describe Pixies!
4.1) What do they look like- Electric blue,8inches high, wingless
4.2) Where do you find them?-Cornwell,England
4.3) Explain their behaviour?- very mischievous, can fly and lift its 
victims onto trees. Language only understandable by other Pixies
4.4) Why are they so dangerous?- they destroy furniture and are hard 
to catch
4.5) Name the charm to catch them - 
Peskipiski Pesternomi (but it doesn't work)

5) Describe Werewolves!
5.1) Name the differences between Werewolves and normal Wolves?<partly 
op.> size, different snout- form. Werewolves are only wolves during 
full moon, Werewolves, unlike real wolves search only for human prey.
5.2) Explain the changes of behaviour before, during and after the 
full moon!<partly op.> before: a normal human wizard or muggle, during 
the full moon he turns into a wolf, which is extremly vicious and 
longs to kill.  The change into a werewolf is extremly painful. If he 
finds no human prey, the Werewolf bites himself.
5.3) What did Gilderoy Lockhart do when he met a werewolf? Which charm 
did he use? He only took the credit, but claimed he threw the Werewolf 
to the ground and used the Hormophus charm to turn the Werewolf back 
to a human.
5.4) How do you kill a werewolf?<op>- If you are forced to kill a 
Werewolf, legend say you should use a silver weapon (IMO)

6) Describe Curses
6.1) Describe the unforgivable curses? Cruciatus- extreme pain; 
Imperius - total control of the victims mind: Avada Kedavra- sudden 
death
6.2) why are they called that way?- to put these curses against 
another human gives you a life-sentence in Azkaban.
6.3) describe the possibilities or counter-curses to fight off these 
curses- Imperius- can be fought with strong will(which can be 
trained); Avada Kedavra is the only curse that has no counter-curse. 
Only HP has survived it, partly because of his mother's sacrifice- 
protection: Cruciatus- can be fought, the counter curse is not named, 
maybe IMO a potion would lesson the symptoms?

7) Describe Gilderoy Lockhart
7.1) What is Lockharts favorite colour?lilac
7.2) What is Lockhart's secret ambition?- rid the world of evil; own 
range of hair potion
7.3) What is Lockhart's greatest achievement? -5 times winner of the 
witch's weekly Most-charming-smile -Award
7.4) What would be an ideal birthday-present for Lockhart?- harmony 
between magi and non-magic peoples or Ogden's old Firewhisky
7.5) What on Earth has that got to do with DADA?<op><vbg> IMO it 
teaches the pupils not to *judge a book by it's cover*

8) Which charm do you use to let an obstacle or creature grow? 
"Engorgio"

9)   Describe Red Caps! 
		9.1) What do they look like?- dwarf-like creatures
		9.2) Where do you find them? - In holes on old 
battlegrounds, where blood has been spilled
		9.3) Describe their behaviour?- they attempt to 
bludgeon people to death
		9.4) How do you beat them? - Many charms and hexes 
work on Red Caps, which is why they are only dangerous to Muggles

10) Describe Boggarts!
10.1) What is a Boggart? - a shape-shifter.
10.2) How does he react?- it turns into a form you fear most
10.3) Why is it easier not to meet a Boggart alone?- It is confused 
which form to turn into
10.4) What do Boggarts fear?- laughter
10.5) How do you beat down a Boggart? What charm do you use?- Imagine 
what would turn your fear into something funny, then use the 
"Riddikulus"-charm
10.6) What would a Boggart look like for you and why? What do you do?
Mine would be a giant Wasp!!
Others were a Centipede, an Aeroplane, or a Spider
11) Describe Grindelows!- Sorry for the translation- mistake- it 
should be Grindylows! It is a water demon.
11.1) What does it look like? - horned,pale- green; long,strong 
fingers
11.2) Where do you find them?- in lakes throughout Britain and Ireland
11.3) Explain their behaviour - they clutch your feet and hold you 
under water
11.4) How do you beat them - break the fingers

12) Describe Hinkypunks!
12.1) What do they look like?- dwarf- like creatures, carry laterns
12.2) Where do you find them? - In swamps 
12.3) Explain their behaviour?- tries to get you to follow them into 
the swamps, so that you get lost.
12.4) How do you react?- Ignore them

13)  What charm do you use to shrink an obstacle or a creature? " 
Reduccio"


Good luck!
I'm looking forward to your answers!

Mecki






From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 15:45:12 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 15:45:12 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d3icn+6vqm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d3ri8+r4n9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18267

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:

> Besides, the day it is revealed that Sirius' heart belongs to some 
> lovely witch is the day many hearts here at HPforGrownups will be 
> broken.  Now I don't think JKR wants that on her back, does she?  
:-)


*Big brown eyes sparkling as I look up, adjusting my tea towel 
prettily and tucking a sock behind my left ear to let him know that i 
am available*

My humble theory is that Sirius is saving himself for a lovely list 
elf named Rainy! Uhmmmm yeah! That's it! 

So JKR can't give him to some lovely witch from Hogsmeade *eyes 
darkening* No! No! She can't do that!!

--Elf Rainy




From editor at texas.net  Sun May  6 15:44:23 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 10:44:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possible Discrepancy in PS
References: <9d3mqv+ivhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF57157.A33C43A4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18268

nera at rconnect.com wrote:

> ****************************************
> My question in all this discussion about Snape vs Quirrel, is how did
> Snape know about the Philosopher's Stone in the first place?

Your question can be read two ways: How did he know about the existence
of the Stone, as an abstract possibility? As in, how did he know about
the end product of the study of alchemy? Or, more specifically, how did
Snape know about that particular Stone there at Hogwarts?

For the former, anyone familiar with alchemy knows about the Stone. [By
the way, in traditional alchemical lore, "stone" is just the term, it's
actually an elixir of some kind. I don't recall why it's called a stone,
I can ask my old flame again if you want.]

For the latter, Snape was one of the team of teachers involved in
devising the obstacles to the Stone. Why on earth would Dumbledore NOT
have told them about it? I imagine he had a teacher conference of some
sort and informed them that for security purposes, he had removed the
Stone from Gringotts and was going to conceal it at Hogwarts. He'd
outline his plan for concealment and give the teachers who would be
involved their assignments for obstructions. Why do you think Dumbledore
wouldn't have told the teachers, or at the very least the four Heads of
Houses, from the outset?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun May  6 15:56:30 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 15:56:30 -0000
Subject: Sex in the seventies was Sirius matters (and so does Draco)
In-Reply-To: <010101c0d5d1$d167dd20$3738acce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9d3s7e+lobk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18269

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...> 
wrote:
   And remember, by the time he graduated from Hogwarts
> he was only 17.  How common was it, really, for high school seniors to be
> sexually active 30 years ago? 

	I laughed myself silly reading this. :) Speaking as a forty 
something, I can answer that-- common enough. Not everybody was "doing 
it". But plenty were. Today's society makes =more= effort to keep teens 
chaste, or at least careful, than it did thirty years ago.
  		Seventies teens were raised "permissively", heard folksongs 
about The Pill, thought STD's were a thing of the past,heard their 
older siblings chant Make Love Not War...how much all of that impacted 
the wizarding world I don't know...but if Sirius wanted to sow wild 
oats with the Muggle population of high school girls, he probably 
wouldn't have had to look too hard.
Pippin, class of '69 ;)





From violina23 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 16:02:33 2001
From: violina23 at yahoo.com (violina23 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 16:02:33 -0000
Subject: Father-Son Names (hero going bad)
In-Reply-To: <9d2gq8+gdus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d3sip+m0uu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18270

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lizzie" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
> >MMMfanfic at h...
>  >(BTW, the first rule is NEVER, NEVER under any circumstances, name 
> >or allow your son to be named after yourself.  Witness Tom Riddle, 
> >Barty Crouch.)
> 
> Good point. JKR could be trying to prejudice us against sons who are 
> named after their fathers. But then what are we supposed to do 
> about...*drumroll please*...Harry James Potter? Now there's a 
> starting point for theories which will turn the Potterverse on its 
> head. For one - and I know I'm going out on a limb here - but what 
if 
> Harry follows in the grand tradition of namesakes and goes bad 
> himself??? *runs to hide from all the curses, jinxes, howlers and 
> baseball bats that she is sure are coming her way* I know, I detest 
> the idea as well, and frankly don't think he could go bad. But it 
> would be an interesting end to the series, from a literary POV. I'd 
> be interested to hear the opinions of others on this, and also can 
> anyone think of any other books with father/son names as a kind of 
> theme?
> 
> Of course, perhaps those with their fathers names as a middle name 
> are the exact opposite of straight-out namesakes. (Phew. Nice save)
> 
> Lizzy.

Hey everyone, I'm a usual lurker, but i figured I'd pipe in this 
time..

As "horrible" as it sounds, it is definitly not a new idea to have a 
character go "bad" for a while before they realize what they have 
done... the series I most often compare HP with is Star Wars and for a 
short while, the hero gives in at the climax of the story arc... has 
the entire audience thinking "No, don't do that!" but has the 
realization/revalation to make him reconsider... It's a possible idea, 
one i don't think will materialized either, but you never know. 

Voldemort has played on Harry's sensitive and delicate emotions 
towards what happened to his parents before; Snape already started 
hinting to the fact that James Potter wasn't so 100% pure perfect 
never-does-wrong herioc. If there are more skeleton's to uncover about 
Harry's parents' past, something COULD get to Harry's head. Books 5-7 
will certainly be interesting indeed!

-Heather :)






From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 16:25:36 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <20010506132637.76796.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010506162536.16782.qmail@web1608.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18271


--- Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> If, as JKR intimated, Harry will be exploring other magical places,
> then he will spend more time away from Hogwarts.  Snape might
> impersonate Harry at school so that no one knows he is gone (opening
> up some interesting opportunities for comedy if an unsuspecting Ron
> casually suggests some rule-breaking and a rules-obsessed Snape/HP
> has to struggle with himself before answering).  

Er, but then who would impersonate Snape? I mean, Dumbledore would have
to find a new Potions professor or get someone else to take polyjuice
to stand in for Snape. I don't know, I just don't see this happening
much. Plus, you'd think that they'd ask Harry's permission before
letting Snape *stand in* for him. And I can just imagine Harry's
reaction. "Snape? As me? <goes into convulsions on the floor>"

~Amber
 

=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 16:56:18 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion (was: Snape the spy)
In-Reply-To: <9d0n8o+qn4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010506165618.30454.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18272

--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
> 1. Brewing the P.Potion takes four weeks, as we know
> from CoS. Unless 
> you suggest Snape always has some of it brewing
> somewhere in case 
> anyone wants to transform into someone else, it
> doesnt seem a task he 
> will be able to accomplish in a time as short as
> that.

Brewing the potion takes 4 weeks, but the bit of the
person you want to be turned into doesn't have to be
added until the end.  Snape could very well have been
planning on turning himself into a DE still in favor
and so had some brewing just in case, but then when
Crouch Jr. showed up they decided to use him so they
wouldn't have to bother kidnapping another DE.

> 2. If you take the P.Potion with hair from the "soul
> sucked" Barty C., 
> wont you turn out to become just as "soul sucked"
> as he is?
> Or is the transformation entirely reserved to the
> outward likeness of 
> the other person?

The transformation seems to be limited to outer
appearance only.  Harry and Ron didn't take on any
characteristics of Crabbe and Goyle other than their
physical appearances.



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May  6 17:14:21 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 17:14:21 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <3AF56078.E18C8D94@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9d40pd+di2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18273

You know, sometimes I amaze myself with the stupidity of my questions.
Let's see... should I blame this on my age or the fact that it was 
very late and I had a delinquent juvenile on my mind at the time I 
wrote it?

Of course, Snape knew about the Stone. One of the protections was put 
there by him. I have only read the book and listened to the tapes a 
gazillion times.

Thank you for your patience and your answer. 

Doreen, who must have been zapped with a Memory Charm ... yeah that's 
it!

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve <crowswolf at s...> 
wrote:
> Hello All!!!!!
> 
> nera at r... wrote:
> 
> > ****************************************
> > My question in all this discussion about Snape vs Quirrel, is how 
did
> > Snape know about the Philosopher's Stone in the first place?
> >
> > Doreen, going back to the book to look
> > ****************************************
> 
> Okay, here's my theory. Snape, being a potions master, would know 
about a lot of wierd potion substances and the like. Perhaps during 
the research of something else, he stumbled upon work about the 
Philosopher's Stone.
> 
> Dumbledore seems to trust Snape a lot, so perhaps Dumbledore took 
Snape into confidence. My view is that all the teachers who 
participated in the guarding of the Stone knew what they were 
guarding.
> 
> Just MHO...
> 
> Hugs to all
> Jamieson
> 
> --
> 
> "Westley and I are joined by the bonds of love,
> and you cannot track it, not with a thousand
> blood houds. And you cannot break it, not with a
> thousand swords. And when I say you are a
> coward, it is only because you are the slimiest
>  weakling ever to crawl the earth!" - Buttercup
> from 'The Princess Bride'
> 
> "There is a shortage of very perfect breasts in this world.
> It would be a pity to damage yours." -
> Wesley in The Princess Bride




From hallieu at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 17:19:06 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 17:19:06 -0000
Subject: James Potter (a strange theory of mine)
Message-ID: <F153jcMzfoV1qdiixjn00000f58@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18274

I am studying Keats' 'The Eve of St. Agnes' and 'La Belle Dame Sans Merci' 
at school, and in 'The Eve of St. Agnes' it mentioned Merlin and his devils. 
I was intrigued, and as, like Hermione, I need to know everything, I did 
some research. Well, it turns out that Merlin was conceived by the devil. 
But what really got me was the picture of Merlin as a stag below. Now, call 
me delusional, but this could be a sign. James Potter was a stag, wasn't he? 
If this is the case, then perhaps his father was one of Voldemort's top 
death eaters - I'm talking higher than Malfoy here, and the reason Voldie 
was after James is related to James' refusal to join the Death Eaters. 
Before you slay me, telling me James is the heir of Gryffindor, I'm a 
supporter of that idea too. So, here's my theory - James' mother was 
Gryffindor's heir, and his father was evil. Voldie wanted James on his side 
(well come on, Gryffindor and Slytherin would be unbeatable) but James, in 
the spirit of all good Gryffindors abhors evil, and refuses to get involved 
with the Dark Arts. So, obviously he has to be eliminated. Any thoughts?
Hallie
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 17:26:06 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:26:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Father-Son Names
In-Reply-To: <9d2gq8+gdus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010506172606.21075.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18275

--- Lizzie <nizbet_noni at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Good point. JKR could be trying to prejudice us
> against sons who are 
> named after their fathers. But then what are we
> supposed to do 
> about...*drumroll please*...Harry James Potter? 

I don't recall it ever being mentioned in canon what
Harry's middle name was.  Where do you get this?


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May  6 17:34:16 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 17:34:16 -0000
Subject: Father-Son Names ... Harry's middle name
In-Reply-To: <20010506172606.21075.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d41uo+cbnv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18276

**********************************
JKR answered the question, "What is Harry's middle name?" in an 
interview with something like, "Why, James, of course."

Steve Vander Ark could tell you which interview. 

Doreen

************************************

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- Lizzie <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
> > Good point. JKR could be trying to prejudice us
> > against sons who are 
> > named after their fathers. But then what are we
> > supposed to do 
> > about...*drumroll please*...Harry James Potter? 
> 
> I don't recall it ever being mentioned in canon what
> Harry's middle name was.  Where do you get this?
> 
> 
> Andrea
> 
> =====
> "Reality is for people who lack imagination."
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 17:37:21 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <9d3mqv+ivhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010506173721.22898.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18277

--- nera at rconnect.com wrote:
> ****************************************
> My question in all this discussion about Snape vs
> Quirrel, is how did 
> Snape know about the Philosopher's Stone in the
> first place?
> 
> Doreen, going back to the book to look
> ****************************************

Umm...because he helped protect it?  Many of the
professors knew about it, because they helped cast
spells to protect it.  Snape's protection was the
logic problem/potions, remember?  That's also how he
would know Quirrell knew about it, since he also
helped with the protections.


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From simon at hp.inbox.as  Sun May  6 17:43:33 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:43:33 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Father-Son Names ... Harry's middle name
In-Reply-To: <9d41uo+cbnv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOEIPDIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 18278

Doreen: <<<JKR answered the question, "What is Harry's middle name?" in an
interview with something like, "Why, James, of course.">>>

The question is answered in one of the chats on Scholastics pages (and possibly
several other places). The link is:
http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm and the answer to
the middle name is about half way down.

Q: Does Harry have a middle name?
J.K.: Yep, James after his dad.


Doreen: <<<Steve Vander Ark could tell you which interview.>>>
Quite probably he could, but I seem to have got in first. I believe the above
linked interview to be the one that Steve references for his lexicon answer to
the same question.


Simon
--
"I didn't go to university. Didn't even finish A-levels. But I have sympathy for
those who did." - Terry Pratchett
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun May  6 17:57:14 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 6 May 2001 17:57:14 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <989171834.5899.29905.qh@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18279


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Group Members/weasly1.JPG 
  Uploaded by : meckelburg at foni.net 
  Description : One of the Weasleys as a 2year old Actually Mecki's son Marten! 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%20Members/weasly1.JPG 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

meckelburg at foni.net
 







From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun May  6 17:59:56 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:59:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
References: <989171834.5899.29905.qh@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <00cb01c0d656$5c8ab6a0$d4257bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 18280

Aww....everyone go look a the picture. This child is soooo sweet !

Mecki, I'm sure he has his moments of not being adorable, but he looks
like a very cuddly bundle.

Michelle




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 18:14:05 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 18:14:05 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Single Adults in HP
Message-ID: <LAW2-F14Ae3pVtCZdBF0000295c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18281

Amy Z wrote:
>Okay, there are a lot of frumps (Sprout), over-70's (Dumble,
>McGonagall, Flitwick), and plain old scaries (Trelawney), but what
>about Lockhart, Lupin, and Quirrell?  There's no comment on Lupin's
>or Quirrell's attractiveness or lack thereof, just that they're
>young, and we know Lupin is a favorite teacher of many, which one
>would think would lead to some crushes.  Lockhart, we know, is
>supposed to be a bit of a hunk.  Don't the students wonder whether
>these guys are married, have girlfriends, etc.?  And they'd probably
>be curious about the older teachers' kids, if not their marriages.

I imagine Lupin as being attractive, in a "lived-in" kind of way.  Quirrel 
not.  Lockhart I imagine as an over-groomed "pretty boy" type who appeals to 
mums, e.g. Daniel O'Donnell or Richard Clayderman.  Or even Liberace in his 
heyday - the smile fits :D !  The only thing against this in the canon is 
that Hermione fancies him - how could she?  Anyway, his true love is 
obviously one G. Lockhart, bachelor of this parish

>Don't get me wrong--I would much rather read about adventures,
>Quidditch matches, etc., than hear the Trio's speculations about
>their professors' love lives.  It's just that I think it's an
>artistic decision on JKR's part, not a reflection of real-life
>teenage interests.  Unless British kids are very different from US
>kids in this regard.

Agree, and no, I don't think British kids are any different.
>
>Jo did recently say that the teachers' marital status is significant
>and will come up.  Does anyone want to venture a theory about what
>that might mean?

I venture to suggest some will turn out to be widowed &/or separated.  
Interesting that the only examples of (living) stable married couples are 
the Weasleys and <gasp> the Dursleys!
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun May  6 18:26:43 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 6 May 2001 18:26:43 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <989173603.9739.32955.q1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18282


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Group Members/rjasmall.jpg 
  Uploaded by : rebeccaj at golden.net 
  Description : Rebecca Bohner a.k.a. R. J. Anderson, who thinks she's got a good handle on Hermione's hair, if nothing else 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%20Members/rjasmall.jpg 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

rebeccaj at golden.net
 







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 19:11:20 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:11:20 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Snape_as_Harry_=96_James_as_Slytherin_=96_couples_-_Marten?=
Message-ID: <9d47ko+b5ds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18283

Magda wrote:

>I disagree with the idea that Snape's task was something he did that
>night and then returned for the banquet.  If he went to see V., he
>certainly wouldn't have found him in a very good mood and while he
>might claim that he was too busy to appear right away when he was
>summoned, it would not be a good time. 

Hmmm...okay, but then what do you think he did do when he left the 
hospital wing that night?  It doesn't seem as if he's just popping 
down to Hogsmeade to pick up a snack for Dumbledore.

Hallie wrote:

<interesting speculative post about James as Slytherin-Gryffindor 
hybrid>

>Any thoughts?

Just that I, Harrylike, am very impressed by the effort you, 
Hermionelike, put into your homework.  I remember The Eve of St. 
Agnes as the low point of my otherwise thrilling Keats and Shelley 
seminar.  Maybe I should give it another try.

I'll leave more engaged comments to someone who doesn't get confused 
and headachy when trying to think through Heir of Gryffindor ideas.

Morag wrote:

> Interesting that the only examples of (living) stable married 
couples >are the Weasleys and <gasp> the Dursleys!

And <further gasp> the Malfoys.  Yes, fanon seems to think they hate 
each other, but that's total speculation.

Mecki, your son is adorable.  A wee Weasley indeed.

Amy Z




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 19:24:05 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia de Lobo)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:24:05 -0500
Subject: HP4GU-Texas
References: <989171022.2460.49742.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c0d662$1dfe0660$9e21c280@resnet.tamu.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18284

>>My heavens, a decent lit class of any kind at A&M? The stars are
aligning, the temperature in Hell is dropping....
>>

No kidding! I dunno how i got that. Mebbe it's cause I'm an English Major.


>>Neth, get yourself over to the HP4GU-Texas group and join; we want to do
a gathering in November or thereabouts, and a central location like
Austin or your own balmy locale had been bandied about. Any other newbie
Texans, you too!
>>

Where's the list? I suck at finding things. Ooo...November, that's good. I
like November. =D

--Neth.

**Draco dormiens nunquam titilandus.**

--Amanda, herself a onetime liberal arts major at A&M who knows whereof she
speaks (anthropology, don't ask)



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 19:29:43 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 12:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape_as_Harry_?_James_as_Slytherin_?_couples_-_Marten
In-Reply-To: <9d47ko+b5ds@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010506192943.99165.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18285

> but then what do you think he [Snape] did do when he left the 
> hospital wing that night?  It doesn't seem as if he's just popping 
> down to Hogsmeade to pick up a snack for Dumbledore.
 
Beats me; we'll have to wait and see.  But he would not have been
back for the banquet with no marks on him if he'd been to see V.






__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 19:59:04 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:59:04 -0000
Subject: Possible Discrepancy in PS
In-Reply-To: <3AF57157.A33C43A4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9d4ae8+gn0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18286

A question I have is how did Dumbledore know someone is after the 
Stone in the first place without knowing who is after it?  Divination?

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> nera at r... wrote:
> 
> > ****************************************
> > My question in all this discussion about Snape vs Quirrel, is how 
did
> > Snape know about the Philosopher's Stone in the first place?
> 
> Your question can be read two ways: How did he know about the 
existence
> of the Stone, as an abstract possibility? As in, how did he know 
about
> the end product of the study of alchemy? Or, more specifically, how 
did
> Snape know about that particular Stone there at Hogwarts?
> 
> For the former, anyone familiar with alchemy knows about the Stone. 
[By
> the way, in traditional alchemical lore, "stone" is just the term, 
it's
> actually an elixir of some kind. I don't recall why it's called a 
stone,
> I can ask my old flame again if you want.]
> 
> For the latter, Snape was one of the team of teachers involved in
> devising the obstacles to the Stone. Why on earth would Dumbledore 
NOT
> have told them about it? I imagine he had a teacher conference of 
some
> sort and informed them that for security purposes, he had removed 
the
> Stone from Gringotts and was going to conceal it at Hogwarts. He'd
> outline his plan for concealment and give the teachers who would be
> involved their assignments for obstructions. Why do you think 
Dumbledore
> wouldn't have told the teachers, or at the very least the four 
Heads of
> Houses, from the outset?
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fruitloophotty at aol.com  Sun May  6 20:24:23 2001
From: fruitloophotty at aol.com (Captain Connie Bobolax)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:24:23 -0000
Subject: Introduction
Message-ID: <9d4btn+d2e6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18287

Hey all!

I just recently joined the group, went on vacation, and when I got 
back nearly died from all the mail. This is such a high volume list! 
I'll try to jump in with my opinions on matters, but everything moves 
so fast here, esp. for someone who can only check her mail once a 
day! I'll most likely be the person asking completely stupid 
questions that any person in their right mind would know the answer 
to. I have the absolute worst memory ever.

Let's see...a quck bio. I'll let you guess on the age, but let's just 
say it's somewhere betweenn 32 and 34. Hope that didn't give too much 
away. I'm 4th grade teacher in the bull-ridin' state of Texas.  Do I 
have any other Texans here who know the horrors of TAAS, namely 
teaching it? I discovered Harry Potter through my sister-in-law just 
this last summer and have been full-fledged addict since. I'll admit 
I thought Harry Potter was just a passing craze with the young ones 
before I read SS/PS. Now I can't remember a time when I didn't love 
young Potter.

I guess that's all I have to say! I'll try not to be a lurker!

--Connie




From margdean at erols.com  Sun May  6 19:46:52 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 15:46:52 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Single Adults in HP
References: <LAW2-F14Ae3pVtCZdBF0000295c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AF5AA2C.4E40C464@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18288

Morag Traynor wrote:
> 
> Amy Z wrote:

> >Jo did recently say that the teachers' marital status is significant
> >and will come up.  Does anyone want to venture a theory about what
> >that might mean?
> 
> I venture to suggest some will turn out to be widowed &/or separated.
> Interesting that the only examples of (living) stable married couples are
> the Weasleys and <gasp> the Dursleys!

Well, and Hermione's parents, though we haven't gotten to see
much of them yet.  We do know they're both dentists.  


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From fruitloophotty at aol.com  Sun May  6 20:32:35 2001
From: fruitloophotty at aol.com (Captain Connie Bobolax)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:32:35 -0000
Subject: Introduction
In-Reply-To: <9d4btn+d2e6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d4cd3+lr6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18289

Argh. A note to all you people with kids old enough to use the 
computer. Don't let them go near your profile. I just discovered 
the "Captain Connie Boboblax thing". That is not my name. The Connie 
is the only truth in that statement. Who else here thinks Bobolax 
sounds like some kind of laxative? Me thinks I'll go change the 
profile back to normal now. 

Ah, I have just discovered that my son also thought it would be 
amusing for me to be a male stripper. Have I taught him nothing about 
morals? Sorry for the OTness of this post. Just thought I would 
explain the name.

--Connie, who is not a captain, nor a Bobolax 


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Captain Connie Bobolax" 
<fruitloophotty at a...> wrote:
> Hey all!
> 
> I just recently joined the group, went on vacation, and when I got 
> back nearly died from all the mail. This is such a high volume 
list! 
> I'll try to jump in with my opinions on matters, but everything 
moves 
> so fast here, esp. for someone who can only check her mail once a 
> day! I'll most likely be the person asking completely stupid 
> questions that any person in their right mind would know the answer 
> to. I have the absolute worst memory ever.
> 
> Let's see...a quck bio. I'll let you guess on the age, but let's 
just 
> say it's somewhere betweenn 32 and 34. Hope that didn't give too 
much 
> away. I'm 4th grade teacher in the bull-ridin' state of Texas.  Do 
I 
> have any other Texans here who know the horrors of TAAS, namely 
> teaching it? I discovered Harry Potter through my sister-in-law 
just 
> this last summer and have been full-fledged addict since. I'll 
admit 
> I thought Harry Potter was just a passing craze with the young ones 
> before I read SS/PS. Now I can't remember a time when I didn't love 
> young Potter.
> 
> I guess that's all I have to say! I'll try not to be a lurker!
> 
> --Connie




From meckelburg at foni.net  Sun May  6 22:10:49 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 22:10:49 -0000
Subject: OT Ron's muggle family? was Re: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <00cb01c0d656$5c8ab6a0$d4257bd5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <9d4i59+90u8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18290

Thanks Michelle!
He's a wizard, I know he is. he not only looks like a weasley, he acts 
like one. He manages the typical uncontrolled pre-wand magic.
many children, this one and ihs sister in perticular, can do the 
"chaotus absolutus"- charm within seconds( turns a normal living-room 
into an desaster-area!). BTW. Don't you believe we could by any 
chance, considering how much he looks like a Weasley, be some kind of 
relative of Mrs.Weasleys second cousin, the muggle?<g>- 
this is OT, sorry
Mecki

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> Aww....everyone go look a the picture. This child is soooo sweet !
> 
> Mecki, I'm sure he has his moments of not being adorable, but he 
looks
> like a very cuddly bundle.
> 
> Michelle

you can find "little Weasley" in the file section/group members! Take 
a look! He really is a wizard, broom and all!
Mecki




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May  7 00:30:26 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 17:30:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d2bag+d2ds@eGroups.com>
References: <20010506010039.71990.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506172223.031e91a0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18291

At 02:01 AM 5/6/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Okay, there are a lot of frumps (Sprout)...

Wouldn't surprise me if S. gets the best sex of the lot... ;)

>, over-70's (Dumble, McGonagall, Flitwick),

Seventies is young for a Wizard.  :)

>and plain old scaries (Trelawney)...

It's kind of a romance-killer to have your gal always
predicting your death...

>Lockhart...

Ron: (Taking that first quiz in 2nd year DADA) Hmmm... "What
   would be an ideal birthday gift for Gilderoy Lockhart?"  Hmmm...
   Dunno.  What do you get for the man who's had everyone?

(Harry smothers a laugh.  Hermione scowls.)



                         -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Mon May  7 00:50:27 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:50:27 -0500
Subject: Slightly OT--here's the Texas group URL
Message-ID: <3AF5F153.ECDF885@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18292

Apologies for being a bit off-topic, but wanting the broad audience:

For Neth, and our own intrepid male-strippin' Captain Connie, and any
other Texans who'll admit it, here's a URL for the Texans on the list.
And be sure to go to the "polls" section, because there's a poll for a
proposed gathering location and a time. I just *know* there's more than
twelve Texans here.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Texas

--Amanda, whose children will doubtless invent aliases for her, too,
when they're as old as Captain Connie's kids....




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun May  6 15:28:50 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 15:28:50 -0000
Subject: interesting Lexicon thing has been happening lately
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F147ubxcbz37cf00000ae5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d3qji+9vir@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18293


Steve, I am not kidding. You need to find yourself an agent and ask 
these questions. Then I think you should start pitching an "Annotated 
Harry Potter" to publishers. Somebody is going to write it, and if it 
isn't you, they are certainly going to use your research. Your work  
is real, it is professional, and it is important.

Any agent worth her salt will POUNCE on the opportunity to advise you 
on how to approach this and to help your with a proposal. If you need 
some help, I can dig up some reputable names for you.

I think you should at least be paid as a consultant for the Electronic 
Arts project.

--Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> Bill 'em
> 
> 
> >From: "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...>
> >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >Subject: [HPforGrownups] interesting Lexicon thing has been 
happening 
> >lately
> >Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:48:53 -0000
> >
> >Hey, just thought I'd throw this past all of you and get reactions:
> >
> >Lately, several times a day, the Lexicon has been visited by 
someone
> >from Electronic Arts. As we all know, they're the ones doing the
> >online and computer games which promise to allow users/players to
> >more fully explore the universe of Harry Potter. I have to admit 
that
> >my initial reaction to these plans was that it would seriously mess
> >up the vision that we have from the books themselves -- they would
> >frankly be inventing a LOT of things for themselves and I really
> >don't like the idea of Electronic Arts creating "official" Harry
> >Potter information.
> >
> >But they're using the Lexicon, it would seem. So does that mean 
that
> >they're honestly trying to be true to the books? Or am I just 
saving
> >them time and money on research and should I be billing them? And
> >what are the chances that I get credit for any of this on the 
games?
> >
> >Steve Vander Ark
> >unpaid research slave of Electronic Arts
> >The Harry Potter Lexicon
> >http://www.i2k.com~svderark/lexicon
> >
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 01:22:06 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:22:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slightly OT--here's the Texas group URL
In-Reply-To: <3AF5F153.ECDF885@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010507012206.17787.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18294


--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> For Neth, and our own intrepid male-strippin' Captain Connie, and any
> other Texans who'll admit it, here's a URL for the Texans on the
> list. And be sure to go to the "polls" section, because there's a
poll
> for a proposed gathering location and a time. I just *know* there's
> more than twelve Texans here.

Out of wild and rabid curiousity, are there anymore HP4GU groups for
geographic regions? I tried a search on YahooGroups but only saw one
for Australia. So, what, only people in Texas and Australia want to
meet other Potter fans? <cheeky grin>

~Amber


=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 01:29:53 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 01:29:53 -0000
Subject: Dementor's kiss 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010506011713.016d50e0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9d4tqh+44ve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18295

A dementor administered the kiss. Voldemort would be made aware 
by the Dementors themselves that Crouch Jr. is gone. You cannot 
count on them not telling him. If Snape uses a polyjuice potion 
it cannot be of Crouch Jr.  

Bugg   


Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote: 
> He could always go off pretending to be Crouch Jr. still in the
moody disguise.   Spend only short time with Voldemort- as Moody-
claiming he's continuing the charade and acting as a double agent 
for voldemort while REALLY acting as a double agent for 
Dumbledore..   of course that all gets REALLY confusing.
> 
> Or maybe i'm just crazy 


> At 11:46 PM 5/5/01 +0000, another wrote:
> >There are a few problems with Snape as polyjuiced Crouch jr:
> >1. Time Constraint.  Whatever he was sent to do by Dumbledore, 
it was agreed prior to The Dementor's Kiss.  Dumbledore didn't find 
out about Crouch until the Hospital wing scene.
> >2. Too huge a risk.  Polyjuice only lasts for an hour.  (umm, I 
need a drink, Master...)
> >3. Crouch used this to impersonate Moody.  JKR is more inventive
than this.
> 
 







From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Mon May  7 02:25:17 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 02:25:17 -0000
Subject: Weasleys and possible SHIP. (was OT Ron's muggle family? )
In-Reply-To: <9d4i59+90u8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d512d+m73i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18296

Medki wrote:
"He's a wizard, I know he is. he not only looks like a weasley, he 
acts like one."

--Perhaps he really is distantly related to the Weasleys! Don't you 
find that Weasleys are the most common to spot? I see them all the 
time and as I mentioned in a recent chat I have a friend who, looks 
wise, IS Ginny. She's also a big HP fan and when I told her that she 
looked but didn't act like Ginny she good because Ginny's a spineless 
twit. (or something like that ;-) Given my own feelings I probably 
exaggerated a bit.)  

I also wanted to ask her what ship she rode on, and when she 
responded that she didn't care I wanted to scream HARRY AND HERMIONE. 
(and I would have except we were in a public place and people 
might've become suspicious) :-)

Anywho to bring this back to what I was saying. (What WAS I saying? 
Oh yeah-) As to there being so many Weasleys Draco did say that all 
Weasleys have red hair and more children than they can afford. My 
question is was that just an insult or are they really lots of red 
headed and overpopulated Weasley clans in the WW. I mean it's not all 
that strange for people who aren't closely related, or not at all, to 
share the same last name. Might there be other Weasleys, and for that 
matter other Potters? How would Harry feel if he met another Wizard 
named Potter, even if the two weren't related.

Scott




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 02:41:20 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 02:41:20 -0000
Subject: Snape the spy-- the play so far/PJ potion
In-Reply-To: <9d0mdn+or62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d520g+9plh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18297

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:

> It's time for a useful summary on the Spy theory and the arguments 
> for and against 

> 6. I just thought of something.  Remember how Harry has to drain a 
> dreamless sleep potion near the end of GoF, right after Snape set 
off 
> for his *mission*?  Hence, if Snape did went back to Voldie that 
> night, Harry couldn't see Voldie having his little fun in his 
dream.  
> Could the dreamless sleep potion be significant?


I always figured they just wanted Harry to be able to sleep and not 
have any of the recent events going through his mind.  BUT....you 
bring up an interesting point.  

    
 
> I'm sitting on the fence on this one ...


When I first finished GoF I was convinced Snape was going back to 
Voldemort.  Then I convinced myself that he wasn't going back to 
Voldemort. Now I am going to sit on the fence and wait until the 
books tell us.  


> This also raises an interesting problem.  Fudge did know about 
> Dumbledore's spys but in GoF he seems to be completely shock when 
> Snape showed him the Dark Mark.  Does that mean that even Fudge 
> doesn't know exactly who those spys were?  


I personally hope and think we will find out who Dumbledore's other 
spies were/are.  One of them might even be someone we already know.

Polyjuice Potion/Starting to be overused!

I am going to comment on the *Snape taking the polyjuice potion* one 
more time.  I truly hope JKR doesn't go in this direction.  As I have 
said before and will say again, I want to see Snape as himself. If 
Snape returns as a DE, I think it would be interesting to see how he 
goes about his business. I would love to see how he acts around 
Lucius Malfoy, for instance.  If it is something else, then I want to 
see what he does in his *own* body.  Not in someone else's. What fun 
would it be if we can't see Snape's upper lip curling?  If we don't 
get the constant reminders of how greasy his hair is?  Give me the 
real Snape and not some polyjuiced body!

Koinonia

  




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Mon May  7 04:35:13 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 00:35:13 -0400
Subject: RITA SKEETER--CHARACTER SKETCH
Message-ID: <3AF62601.C55405DB@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 18298

Hello Everyone!!!

Here, to start off the week, is the character sketch of your favorite
reporter...Rita Skeeter!! You know her, you either love her or hate her,
but what do we know of Rita Skeeter...really? How can we put "I am Rita
Skeeter, and this is me!" into words?

Well, in an effort to do so, I present you this! It was given to me by a
wonderful Witch who lives just down the way from me. Her name is Mertle,
and she sells wonderful cornbread. She sells a loaf for two knuts a
piece, and it's quite good with your morning coffee.

She subscribes to the Daily Prophet, and thought I would find this
interesting. I did, and so will you, I hope! Read on, and be amused....

                                     THE DAILY PROPHET

Muggle gives birth to Troll; p. A6   ~~~            Weather: Hot, and
slightly magical.

 Recently, the Daily Prophet held a contest. Win the chance to interview
our very own star reporter Rita Skeeter! Many
entered, but only one won the contest! Hogwarts student Hermione Granger
won after thousands entered! What follows is
their interview!

*
Hermione: Hello Rita.
Rita: Oh! Hennrietta is it?
H: Hermione.
R: Ah. Yes. How I remember you now.
H: How quickly you forget.
R: Hm. Shall we get on with the interview? That is why we?re here, is it
not?
H: Hm. Yes. All right, Rita, describe yourself.
R: Oh, this one?s easy! I?m a beautiful forty-year-old woman, with
natural blonde hair and a wonderful figure! I report the
news accurately, and enjoy informing people of events happening around
them.
H: Despite evidence that your actually around fifty, your hair is dyed,
you have a mouth full of gold teeth which implies poor
dental hygiene and your stories are so full of lies that you have been
banned from the grounds of Hogwarts?
R: I?ll take the fifth on that Miney.
H: What did you just call me?
R: Nothing, nothing, proceed with the next question!
H: Alright Rita, what would you say is your strongest positive character
trait?
R: Well, I am not afraid of hard work, even if it means stepping on
people on the way up.
H: Oookay, what is your weakest personality trait?
R: I believe that I?m too self-centred. I?m always focusing on myself,
and don?t care what happens to other people. It makes
me sad sometimes.
H: But didn?t you just say that you didn?t care what happened to those
people on your way up?
R: You see my point then. It?s very hard to be me.
H: One would assume so. Now, Rita, tell me about the validity of the
rumors concerning yourself.
R: What rumors Herman?
H: My name is Hermione.
R: That?s exactly what I said.
H: Yes, well. Right. There are rumors, Rita, that you lie about people
when reporting the news.
R: WHAT??? Who?s been saying that? Is it Bagman? I can tell you things
about him that would make your teeth crack! If
he?s behind this-
H: Rita? They?re rumors. What do you have to say about them?
R: Ah. Rumors. Yes. Well, there?s no truth in them. None; I report the
news as I see it. My way of seeing news is often
superior and the public has a right to read it; don?t you agree?
H: No. Next question. Do you believe in deceit to gain the truth?
R: I have no idea what you?re talking about.
H: Of course you don?t. I repeat: do you believe in deceit to gain
access to the ?truth? in your stories?
R: Well
I wouldn?t exactly call it deceit. I?d call it more a stronger
view of the facts.
H: What about the one?s which you leave out?
R: Again, I have no idea what you are insinuating.
H: Let me give you an example: Reporting that Hagrid was half-giant, but
leaving out the fact that he was kind and gentle. Do
you remember that article, Rita?
R: It seems to have slipped my mind just now.
H: Perhaps you?d like to comment on something else then? How about
?reporting? that Harry was prone to ?episodes? and
was ?unstable?. I believe that?s how you put it? When in reality, you
had no idea what was happening.
R: I report what I see, that is all.
H: Ever consider taking a job as a novelist? You?d be good at it.
R: Actually, I have a book coming out next fall that-
H: Lovely. I?m sure it?ll be wonderful. Now, what have we covered. Lies,
deceit, truth stretching, my you ARE a busy
woman. There?s one more thing we haven?t covered.
R: My agent said this would be a happy interview

H: She lied. Now, what do you have to say about, oh, let?s say, breaking
the law?
R: I would NEVER break the law! I am above it in every way, and consider
anyone who DOES break the law below me.
H: You think everyone is below you. That?s part of the problem. Do you
like jars Rita?
**Editors note: at this point, it should be noted that Rita went very
pale. We suspect that she had a bug of some sort.**
R: What?s your next question?
H: Would you break the law to get a story?
R: I take the fifth.
H: Ah. Good then. It really has been LOVELY talking to you Rita. Shall
we do this again soon?
R: 


H: Speechless Rita? Never thought I?d see the day.

** Editors note: after the interview, Rita went on a well earned
sabbatical in the south of France. Rita will be ?getting away
from all those children, can?t talk to the children, she?ll ruin me,
she?s out to get me, have to breathe?. It should also be noted
that Rita was mumbling about jars when she left. I encourage our readers
to send some jars for Rita. She seems to like them!

Our Hogwarts student, Hermione Granger, decided to use the above
interview as part of her ?Magic in the Media? course.
This being said, she needs help from you, dear Readers! To complete her
assignment, Hermione needs some questions
answered! So get your pointed hats on, and send in those answers! Here
are the questions Readers! They can be sent to: The
Daily Prophet, c/o Rita Skeeter.**


Question:

1) What?s with Rita?s teeth? How do you suppose she lost them? (be
creative on this one folks)
2) Do you believe that Rita lies intentionally? Or is there something
else behind the words?
3) What do you believe are Rita?s strongest character traits?
4) What are her worst character traits?
5) Do you believe that there is actually a nice person underneath all
the deceit?
6) Why do you suppose sadness and anything tragic attracts Rita? We can
assume that it?s what sells the stories; but is there
something else behind that?
7) What drives Rita to report the stories she does? This can be related
to question six, but think about it.  Question six was:
Why does the tragic attract her? And Question seven is: Why does she
bother reporting it?
8) Do you think that Rita is lonely, or just vengeful?
9) What family upbringing would Rita have had? She seems to be very
crass and loud. Would she have been poor? (again, no
facts to back it up. So, put yourself in her place.)
10) If you would compare Rita Skeeter to an animal, any one you chose,
what would it be?  Why?(This ones a fun one. I
couldn?t think of a tenth question; so sue me. Oh, and the answer can be
anything but a beetle. Again, be creative.)

~~~~ That?s it folks! I?ve never done something like this before, so
please, be gentle! ( or not <g>) ::Jamieson runs and hides in a pile of
blankets, hoping to look like the boogyman::

Jamieson

--

"Westley and I are joined by the bonds of love,
and you cannot track it, not with a thousand
blood houds. And you cannot break it, not with a
thousand swords. And when I say you are a
coward, it is only because you are the slimiest
 weakling ever to crawl the earth!" - Buttercup
from 'The Princess Bride'

"There is a shortage of very perfect breasts in this world.
It would be a pity to damage yours." -
Wesley in The Princess Bride



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From raining_lizards at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 05:00:52 2001
From: raining_lizards at hotmail.com (raining_lizards at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 05:00:52 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP - Dumbledore and McGonagall
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506172223.031e91a0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9d5a64+n3i9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18299

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 02:01 AM 5/6/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
> >Okay, there are a lot of frumps (Sprout)...
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me if S. gets the best sex of the lot... ;)

Me neither, come to think of it <g>
 
> >, over-70's (Dumble, McGonagall, Flitwick),
> 
> Seventies is young for a Wizard.  :)

OK, I'm new in organized HP fandom, so this is probably a stupid 
question, but am I the only one who gets a serious vibe between 
Dumbledore and McGonagall?  I've thought they were sleeping together 
since the beginning of the first book.  I was so disappointed when 
they didn't dance together at the ball... but then I rationalized that 
they were trying to hide their relationship from the students. :)  
Does anyone know of any Dumbledore/McGonagall fanfic?  Or do I have to 
write my own?  And is is appropriate to write such fanfic when HP has 
such a large following of under-18's?

Rain, delurking - hi, everyone! :)

------
Rain
raining_lizards at hotmail.com
"Follow your dream - unless it's the one where you're at work in your 
underwear during a fire drill."




From raining_lizards at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 05:06:40 2001
From: raining_lizards at hotmail.com (raining_lizards at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 05:06:40 -0000
Subject: Oops - Re: Single Adults in HP - Dumbledore and McGonagall
In-Reply-To: <9d5a64+n3i9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d5ah0+103fm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18300

I just realized that a fanfic question was probably off-topic in this 
forum.  I apologize.  I'm still curious if anyone else sees the 
Dumbledore/McGonagall vibe, though. :)

Rain

-----
Rain
raining_lizards at hotmail.com
"Follow your dream - unless it's the one where you're at work in your 
underwear during a fire drill."






From mcandrew at bigpond.com  Mon May  7 05:08:07 2001
From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 05:08:07 -0000
Subject: Snape the spy-- the play so far/PJ potion
In-Reply-To: <9d520g+9plh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d5ajn+p62i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18301

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> 
> I am going to comment on the *Snape taking the polyjuice potion* 
one more time.  I truly hope JKR doesn't go in this direction.  As I 
have said before and will say again, I want to see Snape as himself. 
If Snape returns as a DE, I think it would be interesting to see how 
he goes about his business. I would love to see how he acts around 
> Lucius Malfoy, for instance.  If it is something else, then I want 
to see what he does in his *own* body.  Not in someone else's. What 
fun would it be if we can't see Snape's upper lip curling?  If we 
don't get the constant reminders of how greasy his hair is?  Give me 
the real Snape and not some polyjuiced body!
> 
> Koinonia


I totally agree (especially about the curling upper lip!) For me 
Snape is the single most fascinating character in this story, and I 
think of him and Harry as the two chief protagonists really. I 
couldn't imagine any of the future books being so enjoyable if Snape 
doesn't continue to figure large.  He's such a complicated character, 
delightfully bad on the surface, but evidently with several other 
levels underneath - original membership of the Death eaters, 
gratitude/loyalty to Dumbledore for having been given a 'second 
chance'- enough to make him walk back into a vengeful Voldemort's 
clutches, hatred of the Marauders gang and their offspring - all 
unexplained as yet.

One thing I would like to see though, is some sort of reconciliation 
between Snape and Harry by the end of the story.

Lama





From floridian127 at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 05:52:21 2001
From: floridian127 at yahoo.com (floridian127 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 05:52:21 -0000
Subject: 'Remember Cedric' 
Message-ID: <9d5d6l+d50e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18302

Do you think Dumbledore is familiar with U.S. history? 
His speech at the end of GoF overflows with Cedric's loss. 
It is like he is creating a battle cry - 'Remember Cedric' 
Similar to 'Remember the Alamo'  


Buccy - Floridian House Elf   (pronounced Buck-e) 
Sirs and Mams are generous to let little Buccy post. 
Master returns from Hogwarts soon for summer. Must go prepare house. 
Please forgive short post but me is wondering. Thank you again kind 
sirs and mams, thank you. (Buccy bows away from computer, magically 
hits send) 







From nera at rconnect.com  Mon May  7 06:42:42 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 06:42:42 -0000
Subject: Snape the spy-- the play so far/PJ potion
In-Reply-To: <9d5ajn+p62i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d5g52+5qdj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18303

) For me 
> Snape is the single most fascinating character in this story, and I 
> think of him and Harry as the two chief protagonists really. I 
> couldn't imagine any of the future books being so enjoyable if 
Snape 
> doesn't continue to figure large.  He's such a complicated 
character, 
> delightfully bad on the surface, but evidently with several other 
> levels underneath - original membership of the Death eaters, 
> gratitude/loyalty to Dumbledore for having been given a 'second 
> chance'- enough to make him walk back into a vengeful Voldemort's 
> clutches, hatred of the Marauders gang and their offspring - all 
> unexplained as yet.
> 
> One thing I would like to see though, is some sort of 
reconciliation 
> between Snape and Harry by the end of the story.
> 
> Lama
***********************
Snape is the most interesting character in the book. Hagrid is a 
pretty close runner-up and might even pass up Snape in the next book 
if the Giants are featured predominantly.

Anyway, I do not feel that Snape and Harry have to reconcile at the 
end of the series for it to be a truly great ending. We have accepted 
their relationship thus far. Life is like that. There are some people 
that just do not get along. It would make me giggle if, at the end, 
Harry destroyed Voldemort in a puff of red smoke and Snape tried to 
take 50 points off of Gryffindor because it happened in the 
summertime. 

Doreen
****************************




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 07:11:37 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 07:11:37 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Snape=5Fas=5FHarry=5F=96=5FJames=5Fas=5FSlytherin=5F=96=5Fcouples=5F-=5FMarten?=
In-Reply-To: <20010506192943.99165.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d5hr9+ck0d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18304

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > but then what do you think he [Snape] did do when he left the 
> > hospital wing that night?  It doesn't seem as if he's just 
popping 
> > down to Hogsmeade to pick up a snack for Dumbledore.
>  
> Beats me; we'll have to wait and see.  But he would not have been
> back for the banquet with no marks on him if he'd been to see V.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
I think he did go to Voldemort. The piece of information that I think 
we lack is some sort of evidence (carefully planned by Snape and 
Dumbeldore) that would convince Voldemort of Snape's loyalty to him. 
I'm thinking of those Alistair MacLaen books (which I adored) where 
people turn out to be spies, then double agents, then triple 
agents..I think that's the game Snape is playing, under Dumbledore's 
guidance.
I don't know and can't imagine what that crucial evidence is, but if 
Snape "returned" to Voldemort that night, it has to be there. I can't 
see Dumbledore sending Snape (or anybody) to spy for him without an 
extremely convincing cover story. The reason I'm pretty sure Snape 
did return is the drama and tension surrounding his unspecified 
mission, and the sense that he's doing something that is extremely 
hard for him. And I can't think of anything that would be harder for 
him than returning to Voldemort and insinuating himself back into his 
good graces (assuming, of course that he has truly gone over to the 
Good Side).



Naama




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 07:33:23 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 07:33:23 -0000
Subject: Snape Returned to LV? 
In-Reply-To: <9d5hr9+ck0d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d5j43+rens@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18305

Nothing I remember reading proves Snape has not gone back to LV. 
LV passed at least one DE without mentioning his/her name. 
Snape would not have been able to stop LV from killing Cedric 
or trying to kill Harry. LV may have mentioned three DE at 
Hogwarts as not to give Snape's identitity away to other DEs 
or there may be yet another DE at Hogwarts we do not know about. 

Bugg 


Magda Grantwich wrote:
>but then what do you think he [Snape] did do when he left the 
hospital wing that night?  It doesn't seem as if he's just 
popping down to Hogsmeade to pick up a snack for Dumbledore.
Beats me; we'll have to wait and see.  But he would not have been
back for the banquet with no marks on him if he'd been to see V.
>  

naama wrote:
> I think he did go to Voldemort. The piece of information that I 
think  we lack is some sort of evidence (carefully planned by Snape 
and  Dumbeldore) that would convince Voldemort of Snape's loyalty to 
him. I'm thinking of those Alistair MacLaen books (which I adored) 
where people turn out to be spies, then double agents, then triple 
agents..I think that's the game Snape is playing, under Dumbledore's 
guidance. I don't know and can't imagine what that crucial evidence 
is, but if Snape "returned" to Voldemort that night, it has to be 
there. I can't see Dumbledore sending Snape (or anybody) to spy for 
him without an extremely convincing cover story. The reason I'm 
pretty sure Snape did return is the drama and tension surrounding his 
unspecified  mission, and the sense that he's doing something that is 
extremely  hard for him. And I can't think of anything that would be 
harder for him than returning to Voldemort and insinuating himself 
back into his good graces (assuming, of course that he has truly gone 
over to the  Good Side).
> 
> Naama 





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon May  7 07:52:58 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:52:58 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Regional groups (was Re: Slightly OT--here's the Texas group URL)
References: <20010507012206.17787.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c0d6ca$bc62bfe0$823670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 18306

cc: Announcements

Amber asked:

<<Out of wild and rabid curiousity, are there anymore HP4GU groups for
geographic regions? I tried a search on YahooGroups but only saw one for
Australia. So, what, only people in Texas and Australia want to meet other
Potter fans? <cheeky grin> >>

Hmmm.  I'm a little worried that Amber may be foaming at the mouth by now...

***

There are two more regional groups associated with this list that I know of:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-London (next meeting in Greenwich on
26th May)
(also used for Oxford and other places not too far from London)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-NewYork (meeting in Boston on 12th May
the last time I looked)
(obviously covers Boston and probably Washington areas as well)

Mecki was trying to set up something similar in Germany, but I'm not sure if
that's got off the ground.

***A FEW IDEAS

If anyone else has, or wants to, set up other regional meeting groups,
please check out the Regional Meetings database in our Database section to
see who is on your doorstep.  By the same token, people interested in
meeting up with other HP nutters should consider entering their details
there for all to see:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database

It's a good idea for one or two willing people to offer themselves as off
list contacts to get an idea of the feasibility of local meetings, before
setting up a list.  Although it's understandable that people will want to
post flyers here initially, for maximum capture, don't forget the
Announcements list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements for
letting people know if you've set up a new list.  Please use OT Chatter
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter rather than the main list if
you want an online forum in the early planning stages.

BTW, I know many of you aren't members of Announcements, but don't forget
that you have the option to join that on webview only and check it, say once
a week or once a month.

Organisers of regional meetings could add details of events to the Calendar
on the main list, so that other members can see what's happening.  If people
are visiting your area from outside, it would be great for them to know if
some HPfGU members are meeting up while they are there:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/calendar

Rather than rely on Yahoo Groups' search facility, I guess we could set up a
separate file of URLs for any regional meeting groups in our Files section,
so that people can see them all in one place.  That could be plugged from
time to time by the Moderators (mainly on Announcements, but occasionally
here).  Watch this space.

If you have any other ideas on regional meetings for this club or want
advice on setting up a sublist, please e-mail Hexquarters at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

Neil
Moderator Team
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm







From nethilia at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 09:28:38 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia de Lobo)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 04:28:38 -0500
Subject: Yee! 
References: <989217766.1757.29023.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c0d6d8$1a03a3a0$9e21c280@resnet.tamu.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18307

"Captain Connie Bobolax" said:

I'm 4th grade teacher in the bull-ridin' state of Texas.  Do I have any
other Texans here who know the horrors of TAAS, namely teaching it?

***
Not me, but I remeber taking it. >><< Gawd, it was annoying, I knew
everything and aced them easy.

Now we get to put you on the HP4GU-Texas list! =D

--Neth

**Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus.**


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From meckelburg at foni.net  Mon May  7 11:08:54 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:08:54 -0000
Subject: Meet in Germany, Re: ADMIN: Regional groups
In-Reply-To: <005c01c0d6ca$bc62bfe0$823670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9d5vo6+4ffa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18308

I tried to get a German- gathering going, but I only got 1 answer.
This might be a possibility for a new try. anyone interested to meet 
from Germany and nearby please mail off-list
Mecki

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> cc: Announcements
> 
> Amber asked:
> 
> <<Out of wild and rabid curiousity, are there anymore HP4GU groups 
for
> geographic regions? I tried a search on YahooGroups but only saw one 
for
> Australia. So, what, only people in Texas and Australia want to meet 
other
> Potter fans? <cheeky grin> >>
> 
> Hmmm.  I'm a little worried that Amber may be foaming at the mouth 
by now...
> 
> ***
> 
> There are two more regional groups associated with this list that I 
know of:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-London (next meeting in 
Greenwich on
> 26th May)
> (also used for Oxford and other places not too far from London)
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-NewYork (meeting in Boston on 
12th May
> the last time I looked)
> (obviously covers Boston and probably Washington areas as well)
> 
> Mecki was trying to set up something similar in Germany, but I'm not 
sure if
> that's got off the ground.
> 
> ***A FEW IDEAS
> 
> If anyone else has, or wants to, set up other regional meeting 
groups,
> please check out the Regional Meetings database in our Database 
section to
> see who is on your doorstep.  By the same token, people interested 
in
> meeting up with other HP nutters should consider entering their 
details
> there for all to see:  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database
> 
> It's a good idea for one or two willing people to offer themselves 
as off
> list contacts to get an idea of the feasibility of local meetings, 
before
> setting up a list.  Although it's understandable that people will 
want to
> post flyers here initially, for maximum capture, don't forget the
> Announcements list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements 
for
> letting people know if you've set up a new list.  Please use OT 
Chatter
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter rather than the main 
list if
> you want an online forum in the early planning stages.
> 
> BTW, I know many of you aren't members of Announcements, but don't 
forget
> that you have the option to join that on webview only and check it, 
say once
> a week or once a month.
> 
> Organisers of regional meetings could add details of events to the 
Calendar
> on the main list, so that other members can see what's happening.  
If people
> are visiting your area from outside, it would be great for them to 
know if
> some HPfGU members are meeting up while they are there:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/calendar
> 
> Rather than rely on Yahoo Groups' search facility, I guess we could 
set up a
> separate file of URLs for any regional meeting groups in our Files 
section,
> so that people can see them all in one place.  That could be plugged 
from
> time to time by the Moderators (mainly on Announcements, but 
occasionally
> here).  Watch this space.
> 
> If you have any other ideas on regional meetings for this club or 
want
> advice on setting up a sublist, please e-mail Hexquarters at
> hpforgrownups-owner at y...
> 
> Neil
> Moderator Team
> ________________________________________
> 
> Flying Ford Anglia
> Mechanimagus Moderator
> 
> "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
> a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
> squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
> ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]
> 
> Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> to do with this club:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




From danicav at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 11:46:31 2001
From: danicav at hotmail.com (Danica)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:46:31 -0000
Subject: Greetings from Switzerland
Message-ID: <9d61un+lmck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18309

Sali,

I read somewhere that I should introduce myself.  So...

My name is Danica Huser, I am a 30 year young American living in 
beautiful Switzerland with my Husband.  I am addicted to HP, and will 
starve before the next book is released next year!

I have read all the HP books, and my husband (just today) finish SS. 
He admitts he is addicted now also.  He may join later. :)

That's all,
Danica

*Paradise is a place said to be perfect - Fantasy is what takes you 
there* 




From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 12:31:07 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 12:31:07 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT HP4GU-Texas list info?
Message-ID: <F104rKVUDhCiBdk4RA5000024da@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18310

Hey! Sorry to send this to the whole list, but someone (Amanda?) mentioned 
an HP4GU-Texas list planning a meet? I wasn't sure who mentioned it or I 
would have sent this offlist.

Can someone send me the info?


Cait

(With a corgi on her lap and a cat on the back of the chair.)

Corgi Haiku:
"Are you going to eat that?"
"Are you going to eat that?" If not,
Then I will eat that.

Wenna and Taikoubou photos at http://k9rainbow.tripod.com/photos/
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun May  6 23:06:05 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 23:06:05 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What Dumbledore knows (was Re: Possible Discrepancy in PS
Message-ID: <LAW2-F93SeOxV2RQHtQ00002ca9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18311

MMMfanfic wrote:
>
>A question I have is how did Dumbledore know someone is after the
>Stone in the first place without knowing who is after it?  Divination?

How did he know someone would be after a stone that gives the possessor 
immortality and boundless wealth???? <g> OK, I assume you mean how did he 
know someone would be after it at that particular time.  Perhaps there had 
been an attempt on it before, and Nicholas Flamel had asked him to look 
after it.  Presumably it wasn't at Gringotts then.  Or perhaps D has some 
link with Voldemort - it wouldn't be the first time he has acted with 
uncanny speed. He must have sent Hagrid with instructions to get baby Harry 
within minutes of V's flight:  Hagrid is (as far as we know) first on the 
scene.  It can't have been more than a couple of hours, for a baby to 
survive in the rubble.  (I know there are amazing stories of infants 
surviving days after an earthquake, but a novel, even one with wizards and 
dragons, has to stick with what's plausible.)  Yet he misses three 
unregistered animagi under his nose for several years.  Odd.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Mon May  7 12:52:33 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 12:52:33 -0000
Subject: Hi & An Explanation (sorry for the semi-crosspost)
Message-ID: <9d65qh+m2k8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18312

Hi - this is actually coming from Heidi, who, at Cassie's request, is 
sending a note to the list to explain about the upcoming delay before 
the final chapter of Draco Sinister (DS) and the start of the third 
part of the trilogy, Draco Veritas (DV).

Cassie is moving across the country, and while she will have 
occasional computer access, she's pretty much offline for the next 
few weeks. She doesn't have enough computer access to write the story 
in uploadable form, or even to check and respond to emails or offers 
of wonderful fanart. 

If you emailed her in the past 4 weeks and she hasn't responded, 
that's why.  

She is, however, writing bits and pieces of DS15 in longhand while 
she's offline. And if it's a real emergency, you can email me at 
heidit at netbox.com and I'll let her know. 

heidi, on cassie's behalf




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 14:03:11 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:03:11 -0000
Subject: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows 
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F93SeOxV2RQHtQ00002ca9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d69uv+jqe2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18313

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> MMMfanfic wrote:
> >
> >A question I have is how did Dumbledore know someone is after the
> >Stone in the first place without knowing who is after it?  
Divination?
> 
> How did he know someone would be after a stone that gives the 
possessor 
> immortality and boundless wealth???? <g> OK, I assume you mean how 
did he 
> know someone would be after it at that particular time.  Perhaps 
there had 
> been an attempt on it before, and Nicholas Flamel had asked him to 
look 
> after it.  Presumably it wasn't at Gringotts then.  Or perhaps D 
has some 
> link with Voldemort - it wouldn't be the first time he has acted 
with 
> uncanny speed. He must have sent Hagrid with instructions to get 
baby Harry 
> within minutes of V's flight:  Hagrid is (as far as we know) first 
on the 
> scene.  It can't have been more than a couple of hours, for a baby 
to 
> survive in the rubble.  (I know there are amazing stories of 
infants 
> surviving days after an earthquake, but a novel, even one with 
wizards and 
> dragons, has to stick with what's plausible.)  Yet he misses three 
> unregistered animagi under his nose for several years.  Odd.
> 

What's even odder is that for almost a year somebody was 
impersonating a good friend of his, under his very nose, in very 
close quarters, and he didn't spot it. The wise, intuitive 
Dumbledore. Let me join Rosmerta (I think) in suggesting that JKR 
switched to the False Moody solution after writing large chunks of 
the story with Moody being the real Moody. The False Moody solution 
is so mechanical. It's the one thing in the books that really jars 
me. Much more than all the little flints we keep dredging up.

Naama





From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon May  7 14:09:29 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:09:29 -0000
Subject: Narrative Perspectives was: Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <20010506132637.76796.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d6aap+8n77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18314

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:


> 
> If, as JKR intimated, Harry will be exploring other magical places,
> then he will spend more time away from Hogwarts.  Snape might
> impersonate Harry at school so that no one knows he is gone 
> 
> On the other hand, Snape/HP might undertake trips away from Hogwarts
> to act as decoy for the real Harry.


Not wanting to comment on whether I like this idea or no, I think it 
will never come to that for reasons of narrative techniques (as 
opposed to reasons of plot).

Has it ever occured to you that all the scenes in all the books so far 
are told entirely from Harry?s perspective? There is no scene in which 
Harry is not present, and those where he can?t have been himself are 
told indirectly by other persons or through magical instruments (e.g. 
the pensieve).

An exception may be made for the first chapter in GoF (which I found 
rather irritating exactly for that reason when I first read it), but 
it can also be seen as Harry?s dream.

I think to remain true to her style, JKR will have to keep this 
narrative device in the future books, which will make it impossible to 
"split" Harry into two.






From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 14:11:58 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:11:58 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows
Message-ID: <F38qQ4dwIyJGlg7nG6i00002751@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18315

>What's even odder is that for almost a year somebody was
>impersonating a good friend of his, under his very nose, in very
>close quarters, and he didn't spot it. The wise, intuitive
>Dumbledore. Let me join Rosmerta (I think) in suggesting that JKR
>switched to the False Moody solution after writing large chunks of
>the story with Moody being the real Moody. The False Moody solution
>is so mechanical. It's the one thing in the books that really jars
>me. Much more than all the little flints we keep dredging up.
>
>Naama


How well *did* Dumbledore know Moody? M-E's behavior is erratic ane 
eccentric, but since we haven't really seen the real M-E, do we know that 
it's at all out of character? Perhaps C, JR is simply a great actor?


Cait

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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 14:19:14 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 07:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narrative Perspectives:Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <9d6aap+8n77@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010507141914.24581.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18316


--- lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > On the other hand, Snape/HP might undertake trips away from
> > Hogwarts to act as decoy for the real Harry.

<big snip>

> I think to remain true to her style, JKR will have to keep this 
> narrative device in the future books, which will make it impossible
> to "split" Harry into two.

I completely agree. If there are two "Harry's", JKR would almost have
to put us within Snape's head (or whoever impersonates Harry) in order
for the reader to know what's going on. I suppose she could simply
write that someone's impersonating Harry and not say anything more on
the situation, but I think that would seriously weaken the book and
plot.

Plus, can you imagine Harry's reaction to Snape impersonating him? It
probably wouldn't be pretty (I'm imagining lots of "Ew's" and
shuddering).

~Amber


=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 14:44:01 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:44:01 -0000
Subject: Snape Returned to LV?
In-Reply-To: <9d5j43+rens@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6cbh+ms43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18317

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Nothing I remember reading proves Snape has not gone back to LV. 
> LV passed at least one DE without mentioning his/her name. 
> Snape would not have been able to stop LV from killing Cedric 
> or trying to kill Harry. LV may have mentioned three DE at 
> Hogwarts as not to give Snape's identitity away to other DEs 
> or there may be yet another DE at Hogwarts we do not know about. 
> 
> Bugg 
> 

I think Snape has gone back to Voldy, but after Harry had returned 
(the scene at the hospital, when Snape leaves to do accomplish some 
unspecified, but obviously dangerous, mission). 
I don't think it is possible for Snape to have attended the DE 
meeting. The main reason, IMO, is that he just didn't have enough 
time to return. Within ten-fifteen minutes of Harry's return, 
Dumbledore, McConagall and SNAPE were breaking down Moody's door and 
rescuing Harry. Now, Harry returned via a portkey, which is 
practically instantaneous. But you can't Apparate in Hogwarts. So - 
how could Snape return so quickly? Besides, it would be too 
noticeable that Snape wasn't arround in such an emergency as the 
disappearance of two students in such a way. Also, he can't 
Disapparate from Hogwarts, so when the DE come popping arround Voldy, 
Snape would have had to pop up quite a while later, which we know 
didn't happen. They all arrived at almost the same time.
Taking all that together, it just doesn't fit. It's a nice theory but 
it doesn't work. If Snape returned to Voldy, it had to be after Harry 
returned, not before.



Naama
VIP
Nitpicking Department

 




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 14:53:45 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:53:45 -0000
Subject: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows
In-Reply-To: <F38qQ4dwIyJGlg7nG6i00002751@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d6ctp+9nem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18318

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cait Hunter" <kiary91 at h...> wrote:
> >What's even odder is that for almost a year somebody was
> >impersonating a good friend of his, under his very nose, in very
> >close quarters, and he didn't spot it. The wise, intuitive
> >Dumbledore. Let me join Rosmerta (I think) in suggesting that JKR
> >switched to the False Moody solution after writing large chunks of
> >the story with Moody being the real Moody. The False Moody solution
> >is so mechanical. It's the one thing in the books that really jars
> >me. Much more than all the little flints we keep dredging up.
> >
> >Naama
> 
> 
> How well *did* Dumbledore know Moody? M-E's behavior is erratic ane 
> eccentric, but since we haven't really seen the real M-E, do we 
know that 
> it's at all out of character? Perhaps C, JR is simply a great actor?
> 
> 
> Cait

Yes. That is the only answer, on the face of it. But it's a very 
unsatisfying answer, don't you think? It's the "the butler did it!" 
kind of solution - pick the least likely character and make him the 
murderer. With no build up. That's what I call a mechanical solution, 
and since JKR is not given to that kind of plotting, I can only 
assume that she made this major plot change at a late stage, after a 
lot of (real) Moody stuff was already written. 

Well, just my IMHO, of course. I'm not going to be voted off, right?

Naama




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon May  7 15:12:23 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 15:12:23 -0000
Subject: Draco
In-Reply-To: <20010506011045.265.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d6e0n+fe1d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18319

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
Amber wrote:
> > Can anyone think of *anything*
> > redeemable that Draco has done within the four books? 
> > It seems to me that Draco is
> > emphatically in the Dark Lord camp and quite happy to be there.
> > Anyone have any views on this?
> 
> 
> And the problem with Draco repenting and turning good is that
> SOMEBODY has to be on the Dark Side and if everyone reforms it just
> won't be much fun when the retribution is handed out.

I don't think everyone is going to reform - I think that it's just as 
likely that someone believed to be on the side of good is going to 
become evil!Really....
As Cassie & I have discussed many times, we do not like the idea that 
someone who JKR introduced us to as a ten-or-eleven-year-old child is 
going to do nothing but follow some pre-ordained path to evil. If it 
is our choices that make us what we are, then shouldn't Draco get a 
choice at some point? Or is he just there to be hauled by Lucius 
Malfoy, who is evil, to Voldemort's side, then held down to get the 
Dark Mark, then trapped in the Evil!Universe forever? At a minimum, 
he could at least have a conflict about accepting the evil in him, 
and becoming evil - to be honest, that wouldn't bother me as much as 
it would if there's no demonstration of his making that decision. 
Right now he's spouting the vitriol he's been taught - but he also 
might be warning hermione (at the World Cup) and the rest of the (on 
the train). 
In terms of redeemable things he's done, it's not so much that he's 
done "good" things, but he has done ambiguous things/had ambiguous 
things happen around him, including the two potential warnings and 
the following:
1. He ran screaming from voldemort-drinking-dead-unicorn-blood in 
PS/SS
2. Part-kneazle Crookshanks doesn't react badly to him ever on the 
train rides, even when Scabbers isn't around and he's not distracted 
by that little rat
3. He doesn't hit hermione, or even report her for fighting, even 
though he has no problem tattling in other circumstances
4. Do you really think that in the fight in the begining of 4th year, 
right before he becomes a ferrett, he missed harry by accident? It 
could've been a deliberate attention-catching action, not a missed 
hex (if it had been a missed hex, it should've hit someone else with 
the curse, and we see nothing indicating that it did)
5. The ferrett incident itself, to me, seems to have generated some 
sympathy for him - I mean, reread it knowing who moody is, and all it 
can be is an attack by a death eater on the son of someone who he 
*hates* (probably more than he hates any other death eater because 
Lucius Malfoy kept his power and standing, as Crouch Jr. saw so well 
in the Top Box of the World Cup, where the Malfoys were being feted 
by the Minister himself, while wizards who were associated with 
convicted death eaters, like Crouch, Sr. was, were thrown far off 
track). If there is *one* backstory I would like to ask JKR about, in 
something more substantial than an online chat - it's that - what was 
Draco's 4th year in Fake!Moody's class like? It must've been *hell*




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon May  7 15:51:35 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:51:35 -0400 
Subject: JKR Notebooks described in a book
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F25@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18320

Hi! What's the author or the ISBN number for the book? Would love to learn
more about it!

>
> It wasn't in an online interview, so I don't know if it is 
> available.  It was actually from a book in the "Telling Tales" 
> series, which comprises of an interview with JKR, and a summary. > 



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon May  7 16:07:40 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 16:07:40 -0000
Subject: Speculative Sexy Sirius
In-Reply-To: <9d3mb5+lje8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6h8c+kgjg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18321

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nera at r... wrote:
> Didn't Sirius send an exotic bird with a message for Harry? That 
> meant, to me, that he was in some tropical place, unless he got the 
> bird at a pet shop.
> 
> Doreen

Yes, Sirius sent a message to HArry in GoF using a brightly colored 
tropical bird. Harry assumed it meant Sirius was in a tropical area 
too.

I think Sirius was in a tropical area, because I don't think he would 
have gone to the trouble of finding a brightly colored tropical bird 
to deliver the message...unless he wanted to throw anyone off his 
scent, so to speak.

I get the feeling Sirius is handsome (sexy). Ditto for Lupin. They are 
both described as "handsome". Lupin is described as young and 
handsome.

:-)Milz




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 16:08:04 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Narrative Perspectives:Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <20010507141914.24581.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010507160804.44863.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18322

--- Amber <reanna20 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I completely agree. If there are two "Harry's", JKR
> would almost have
> to put us within Snape's head (or whoever
> impersonates Harry) in order
> for the reader to know what's going on. I suppose
> she could simply
> write that someone's impersonating Harry and not say
> anything more on
> the situation, but I think that would seriously
> weaken the book and
> plot.

While I agree that it wouldn't be a good idea to have
Snape impersonating Harry, can't you just picture the
fun that could be had with Ron or Hermione making
reference to something that they talked about with
"Harry" to the real Harry, and Harry starting to think
he might be going insane or something?  The
perspective wouldn't have to be shifted at all - we'd
still follow Harry on his adventures and probably
wonder along with him if he's losing it when
everyone's positive he was doing stuff he *knows* he
didn't do!



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 17:05:13 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:05:13 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP & their children
In-Reply-To: <9d2bag+d2ds@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6kk9+pf62@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18323

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
>  
> Jo did recently say that the teachers' marital status is 
significant 
> and will come up.  Does anyone want to venture a theory about what 
> that might mean?
> 
> Amy Z


Q:  Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
A:  Good question-yes, a few of them, but that information is sort of 
restricted-you'll find out why.

Why can't we know which professors were married?  It would seem to be 
an important part of the plot.  

>From the Lydon interview:

Q:  One of our Internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to 
fall in love.
A:  (laughing) Yeah...who on earth would want Snape in love with 
them?  That is a very horrible idea.

Q:  Well, you get an important kind of redemptive pattern with Snape, 
and then..
A:  It is, isn't it?  I - there's so much I wish I could say to you, 
and I can't because it ruins....

Why can't she say if Snape will fall in love?  What does it ruin?  
Why can't we know which professors were married?

Rest of JKR's answer:  I promise you - whoever asked that question, 
can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said 
that, and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven.  
And that's all I'm going to say.

Just my theory, but I believe Snape was or possibly is one of the 
married professors and it is a big part of what Snape's problem is, 
besides his childhood past (knowing all those hexes, what kind of a 
child would know all those). JKR has made Snape out to be a character 
that no one could love (except us fanatics).  Who would want Snape in 
love with them? What a surpise it will to many when we possibly find 
out Snape has already been in love and not with Lily ;)

Q:  What about Snape?
A:  ......everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say 
that, because there's more to him than meets the eye, and you will 
find out part of what I'm talking about if you read Book Four. This 
question was asked right before the *Snape in love* question.  

I feel Snape is going to play a very important part in the next three 
books. We just know so little about him now.

Also, if some of the professors were married, surely the chances are 
high that they also had/have children.  Where are they?  Who are they?

Koinonia  

 










From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon May  7 17:36:52 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:36:52 -0000
Subject: Narrative Perspectives:Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <20010507160804.44863.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d6mfk+8skn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18324

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:> 
Can't you just picture the
> fun that could be had with Ron or Hermione making
> reference to something that they talked about with
> "Harry" to the real Harry, and Harry starting to think
> he might be going insane or something?  The
> perspective wouldn't have to be shifted at all - we'd
> still follow Harry on his adventures and probably
> wonder along with him if he's losing it when
> everyone's positive he was doing stuff he *knows* he
> didn't do!


Excuse me, but I think this discussion started off when we were trying 
to find out in what way Harry could be protected from LV or how Snape 
could help him, so I?m rather sure

1. Harry (as well as his friends) will be informed of any measures of 
protection as crucial as this

AND

2. JKR will certainly choose the most effective and surprising 
protecting measure, not the one that will make you laugh most, I?m 
afraid.

We?ve had lots of fun with the polyjuicing in CoS,  but I think that 
Barty Crouch Jr. using the PP for deceiving and betraying his 
unknowing enemies has taken the light-hearted fun out of it once and 
for all. 




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon May  7 17:36:58 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:36:58 -0000
Subject: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows.... Crouch does Moody
In-Reply-To: <F38qQ4dwIyJGlg7nG6i00002751@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d6mfq+b0ej@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18325

> 
> 
> How well *did* Dumbledore know Moody? M-E's behavior is erratic ane 
> eccentric, but since we haven't really seen the real M-E, do we 
know that 
> it's at all out of character? Perhaps C, JR is simply a great actor?
> 
> 
> Cait
**********************************
Even the best actors, in order to impersonate a real person, have to 
have some information to go on. Where did Crouch Jr. get his 
information? He was busy being guarded at home. The only time he got 
to go out was to the Quidditch Tournament, IIRC.

My guess is that he would have to know Moody perfectly, in order to 
have fooled Dumbledore so well.
Doreen
**********************************




From margdean at erols.com  Mon May  7 17:03:50 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 13:03:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculative Sexy Sirius
References: <9d6h8c+kgjg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF6D576.4076F8F1@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18326

Milz wrote:
 
> I get the feeling Sirius is handsome (sexy). Ditto for Lupin. They are
> both described as "handsome". Lupin is described as young and
> handsome.

Actually, no, I don't recall (and can't find in a quick scan)
anywhere where Lupin is described as handsome.  Young, yes; JKR
contrasts in a couple of places his relative youth with his
graying hair.  Apart from that, he's more often described as ill,
tired, shabby, etc.

Of course, to those of us of the "handsome is as handsome does"
school, all this only makes him more endearing.  :)

Sirius, OTOH, is described as "handsome" in the scene where Harry
is looking at his parents' wedding picture -- i.e. that's Sirius'
natural state when =he= isn't ragged and half starved.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From bohners at pobox.com  Mon May  7 18:24:09 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:24:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows.... Crouch does Moody
References: <9d6mfq+b0ej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c201c0d722$ecf65380$728f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18327

> Even the best actors, in order to impersonate a real person, have to
> have some information to go on. Where did Crouch Jr. get his
> information?

The basics, from personal observation of Moody in action (prior to Crouch
Jr.'s capture and sentencing as a DE).  The details, from interrogating
Moody on a regular basis -- remember, Crouch had Moody at hand, locked up in
his own trunk, the whole time he was impersonating Moody at Hogwarts.

And how much actual day-to-day contact did Dumbledore and not-Moody have?
They were both busy men, and on those rare occasions where D. might have
sought a private interview, Crouch could just have begged off, or kept it
short.

I had no problem with this plot development, myself.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj






From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 18:20:51 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:20:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows.... Crouch does Moody
In-Reply-To: <9d6mfq+b0ej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010507182051.68470.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18328

--- nera at rconnect.com wrote:
> Even the best actors, in order to impersonate a real
> person, have to 
> have some information to go on. Where did Crouch Jr.
> get his 
> information? He was busy being guarded at home. The
> only time he got 
> to go out was to the Quidditch Tournament, IIRC.

Dumbledore said something about how Crouch Jr was
using the Imperius Curse on Moody to extract
information throughout the year in order to
impersonate him.  That wouldn't explain *everything*,
but it helps with how he'd know some things.

'Course, Moody's regarded as so eccentric anyway that
as long as he acts crazy, Crouch Jr wouldn't be
suspected as an impersonator.


ANdrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon May  7 18:41:44 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 18:41:44 -0000
Subject: Draco
In-Reply-To: <9d6e0n+fe1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6q98+fn0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18329

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> won't be much fun when the retribution is handed out.
> 
> I don't think everyone is going to reform - I think that it's just 
as 
> likely that someone believed to be on the side of good is going to 
> become evil!Really....
> As Cassie & I have discussed many times, we do not like the idea 
that 
> someone who JKR introduced us to as a ten-or-eleven-year-old child 
is 
> going to do nothing but follow some pre-ordained path to evil. If 
it 
> is our choices that make us what we are, then shouldn't Draco get a 
> choice at some point? Or is he just there to be hauled by Lucius 
> Malfoy, who is evil, to Voldemort's side, then held down to get the 
> Dark Mark, then trapped in the Evil!Universe forever? At a minimum, 
> he could at least have a conflict about accepting the evil in him, 
> and becoming evil - to be honest, that wouldn't bother me as much 
as 
> it would if there's no demonstration of his making that decision. 
> Right now he's spouting the vitriol he's been taught - but he also 
> might be warning hermione (at the World Cup) and the rest of the 
(on 
> the train). 

You're right that we have choices to make. However, at this point in 
time it looks like Draco has made a choice...to go along with his 
father's party line. I think when you are raised in an environment 
geared toward a certain prejudice, it's not very likely that you 
would question it because it's "normal". I mean, Draco might not even 
think his attitude toward Muggles and Muggle-borns might be the 
correct attitude and everyone else is wrong. It's only when he 
realizes that his behavior is possibly wrong that he'll have any 
conflict. And so far he doesn't.
 
> In terms of redeemable things he's done, it's not so much that he's 
> done "good" things, but he has done ambiguous things/had ambiguous 
> things happen around him, including the two potential warnings and 
> the following:
> 1. He ran screaming from voldemort-drinking-dead-unicorn-blood in 
> PS/SS
> 2. Part-kneazle Crookshanks doesn't react badly to him ever on the 
> train rides, even when Scabbers isn't around and he's not 
distracted 
> by that little rat
> 3. He doesn't hit hermione, or even report her for fighting, even 
> though he has no problem tattling in other circumstances
> 4. Do you really think that in the fight in the begining of 4th 
year, 
> right before he becomes a ferrett, he missed harry by accident? It 
> could've been a deliberate attention-catching action, not a missed 
> hex (if it had been a missed hex, it should've hit someone else 
with 
> the curse, and we see nothing indicating that it did)
> 5. The ferrett incident itself, to me, seems to have generated some 
> sympathy for him - I mean, reread it knowing who moody is, and all 
it 
> can be is an attack by a death eater on the son of someone who he 
> *hates* (probably more than he hates any other death eater because 
> Lucius Malfoy kept his power and standing, as Crouch Jr. saw so 
well 
> in the Top Box of the World Cup, where the Malfoys were being feted 
> by the Minister himself, while wizards who were associated with 
> convicted death eaters, like Crouch, Sr. was, were thrown far off 
> track). If there is *one* backstory I would like to ask JKR about, 
in 
> something more substantial than an online chat - it's that - what 
was 
> Draco's 4th year in Fake!Moody's class like? It must've been *hell*

Has Rowling said that Crookshanks is definitely part-Kneazle? I must 
have missed that.

I think Draco is sort of like Eddie Haskell in the old "Leave it to 
Beaver" television program. On the one hand he can be the "model" kid 
when he's around adults, but simply horrid when he's around other 
kids.

:-)Milz




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 18:43:18 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 18:43:18 -0000
Subject: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows
In-Reply-To: <9d6ctp+9nem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6qc6+efpb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18330

Cait wrote:

> > How well *did* Dumbledore know Moody? M-E's behavior is erratic 
ane 
> > eccentric, but since we haven't really seen the real M-E, do we 
> know that 
> > it's at all out of character? Perhaps C, JR is simply a great 
actor?

No doubt he is--he gave one heck of a performance at age 19, at his 
trial--but to deceive someone's longtime friend for a year goes beyond 
great acting.  You have to do much more than be in character; you 
have to know all the right things and know what things the person 
wouldn't know.  How could you possibly do it if you didn't even 
know the person you're impersonating (and Jr. can't know Moody well)?

Maybe Dark Wizards have a way to see into one another's characters 
that Muggles don't have, so that Crouch has more ways of getting the 
knowledge he needs than just interrogating Moody.

Naama wrote:
 
> It's the "the butler did it!" 
> kind of solution - pick the least likely character and make him the 
> murderer. With no build up. That's what I call a mechanical 
solution, 
> and since JKR is not given to that kind of plotting, I can only 
> assume that she made this major plot change at a late stage, after a 
> lot of (real) Moody stuff was already written. 

This is where we will all just have to speculate until the publication 
of the Rowling Notebooks(TM), but I'd bet Galleons to gherkins that 
Moody=Crouch was worked out long before book 4 was written.  It is a 
far-fetched solution because of the Dumbledore problem, but it's no 
more un-built-up-to than Quirrell's the bad guy, or Riddle's bad and 
Ginny's opening the Chamber, or Sirius is good-Scabbers is 
Pettigrew-Lupin's a werewolf, IMO.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
   "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry
 said furiously.  "Look at the Dursleys!"
   "An excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore.
                          -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 18:47:37 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 18:47:37 -0000
Subject: Draco, hexes
In-Reply-To: <9d6e0n+fe1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6qk9+ahlb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18331

Heidi the tireless Draco advocate wrote:

> 4. Do you really think that in the fight in the begining of 4th 
year, 
> right before he becomes a ferrett, he missed harry by accident? 

Yes, I really do.

> It 
> could've been a deliberate attention-catching action, not a missed 
> hex (if it had been a missed hex, it should've hit someone else with 
> the curse, and we see nothing indicating that it did)

Why must all hexes that miss their targets hit someone else?  Can't 
they just hit the wall or disperse?

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 Harry liked this clock.  It was completely
 useless if you wanted to know the time, but
 otherwise very informative.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 19:09:22 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:09:22 -0000
Subject: Snape's love
In-Reply-To: <9d6kk9+pf62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6rt2+h69d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18332

Koinonia quoted JKR thus:

> Q:  One of our Internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to 
> fall in love.
> A:  (laughing) Yeah...who on earth would want Snape in love with 
> them?  That is a very horrible idea.

Who on earth?  Only about 500 members of this list!...

> 
> Q:  Well, you get an important kind of redemptive pattern with 
Snape, 
> and then..
> A:  It is, isn't it?  I - there's so much I wish I could say to you, 
> and I can't because it ruins....

Koinonia then asked:

> Why can't she say if Snape will fall in love?  What does it ruin? 

Well, is that the question at this point in the interview?  Hasn't it 
changed to "Snape's redemption"?  And if and how =that= will come 
about is very much on our minds and something she mustn't reveal until 
it unfolds in the books.  She might not be talking about his falling 
in love when she says answering would ruin things.

> Rest of JKR's answer:  I promise you - whoever asked that question, 
> can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said 
> that, and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven. 

IF??!!!  Jo, m'dear, open your eyes.  You have made hopeless addicts 
of millions of people.

Anyway.  It's =possible= that she's stunned not because Snape is going 
to fall in love and that will be a key to Book Seven, but because 
something in Book Seven will reveal that no way on earth would Snape 
ever love anyone.  I admit that the former seems more likely, but 
knowing her cagey way of "answering" questions, I'll draw no 
conclusions 'til I lay down Book Seven (and what a sad day that will 
be).

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------
 Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
 been about being dead, but none of the other 
 ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------




From bellemichellem at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 19:25:47 2001
From: bellemichellem at yahoo.com (bellemichellem at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:25:47 -0000
Subject: Snape's love
In-Reply-To: <9d6rt2+h69d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6srr+bv2j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18333

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Koinonia quoted JKR thus:
I absolutely agree- you cannot draw any conclusions as to whether 
Snape will fall in love (or has been in love) from that interview. It 
could totally be that he'll never love (although I hope not!) I heard 
the interview at one time (a radio interview), and the way she 
sounded convinced me that she isn't necessarily going the way of a 
love relationship for him, past or future.  Oh well, there's still 
fanfiction!

bellemichelle
(momentarily de-lurking)


  
> Anyway.  It's =possible= that she's stunned not because Snape is 
going 
> to fall in love and that will be a key to Book Seven, but because 
> something in Book Seven will reveal that no way on earth would 
Snape 
> ever love anyone.  I admit that the former seems more likely, but 
> knowing her cagey way of "answering" questions, I'll draw no 
> conclusions 'til I lay down Book Seven (and what a sad day that 
will 
> be).
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
>  Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
>  been about being dead, but none of the other 
>  ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
>                   -HP and the Goblet of Fire
> -----------------------------------------------




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 19:28:49 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:28:49 -0000
Subject: What was the Plot-Hole? (was Re: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows)
In-Reply-To: <9d69uv+jqe2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6t1h+cm9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18334

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> > MMMfanfic wrote:
> > >
> > >A question I have is how did Dumbledore know someone is after the
> > >Stone in the first place without knowing who is after it?  
> Divination?
> > 
> > How did he know someone would be after a stone that gives the 
> possessor 
> > immortality and boundless wealth???? <g> OK, I assume you mean how 
> did he 
> > know someone would be after it at that particular time.  Perhaps 
> there had 
> > been an attempt on it before, and Nicholas Flamel had asked him to 
> look 
> > after it.  Presumably it wasn't at Gringotts then.  Or perhaps D 
> has some 
> > link with Voldemort - it wouldn't be the first time he has acted 
> with 
> > uncanny speed. He must have sent Hagrid with instructions to get 
> baby Harry 
> > within minutes of V's flight:  Hagrid is (as far as we know) first 
> on the 
> > scene.  It can't have been more than a couple of hours, for a baby 
> to 
> > survive in the rubble.  (I know there are amazing stories of 
> infants 
> > surviving days after an earthquake, but a novel, even one with 
> wizards and 
> > dragons, has to stick with what's plausible.)  Yet he misses three 
> > unregistered animagi under his nose for several years.  Odd.
> > 
> 
> What's even odder is that for almost a year somebody was 
> impersonating a good friend of his, under his very nose, in very 
> close quarters, and he didn't spot it. The wise, intuitive 
> Dumbledore. Let me join Rosmerta (I think) in suggesting that JKR 
> switched to the False Moody solution after writing large chunks of 
> the story with Moody being the real Moody. The False Moody solution 
> is so mechanical. It's the one thing in the books that really jars 
> me. Much more than all the little flints we keep dredging up.
> 
> Naama

This is the third time that I have heard someone theorizing that JKR 
originally had Mad-Eye as a real goodguy, and invented Barty Jr., to 
fill in a hole in the plot, and that the impersonation therfore 
stands out as poorly crafted.  Does anybody know what that problem 
was, and what discrepancy the creation of young Crouch corrected?

Haggridd




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon May  7 19:29:22 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:29:22 -0000
Subject: Draco, hexes
In-Reply-To: <9d6qk9+ahlb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6t2i+7gc9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18335


> 
> > 4. Do you really think that in the fight in the begining of 4th 
> year, 
> > right before he becomes a ferrett, he missed harry by accident?
 
Amy Z wrote:

> Yes, I really do.

I agree with you on that one.  My question about Draco is why people 
keep defending his intelligence.  What evidence is there that Draco is 
intelligent?

I am not saying he is a complete moron (like Crabbe and Goyle are, 
with their grunting selves), but I don't get the feeling he studies, 
he never does anything on his own, he doesn't pay attention in class 
(which is why he was attacked by Buckbeak), and seems to spend more 
time on Harry than he does perfecting his magic.  That's not too 
bright.  When his father reminded him that he shouldn't be too proud 
that Hermione had better grades than Draco, it didn't make me think he 
was near her with his marks.  It made me think that his grades were 
not anything to be proud of at all.

In fact, he doesn't even have good aim - he should have been able to 
hit Harry with his hex.  They were in the hall, not on the Quidditch 
field!

--jenny from ravenclaw, who is nervous that Draco lovers will come out 
of the woodwork and hex her*****************************




From lizscford at aol.com  Mon May  7 19:34:53 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:34:53 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco, hexes
Message-ID: <a7.e2873d5.282852dd@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18336

I would have to say that Draco IS intelligent, but just not in an academic 
(sp?) way.  I won't claim that he is top of all his classes (unlees his 
father has something to do with it...) but in self preservation his family 
are very good. (please say if this is truning babbl-y!!)
Apart from Harry +co people refuse to believe that the Malfoys were death 
eaters.  Draco gets him self out of trouble at school easily, and is willing, 
on occaision (sp?), to suck up if he believes it will be worth his while (re: 
book 2, telling Snape he'd make a good headmaster...)
Over all, Draco may not be subject smart like Hermione but he is pretty 
intelligent in knowing waht he wants and getting in.
just my opinion...

DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 19:46:48 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:46:48 -0000
Subject: What was the Plot-Hole?
In-Reply-To: <9d6t1h+cm9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d6u38+rpm8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18337

Haggridd wrote:
 
> This is the third time that I have heard someone theorizing that JKR 
> originally had Mad-Eye as a real goodguy, and invented Barty Jr., to 
> fill in a hole in the plot, and that the impersonation therfore 
> stands out as poorly crafted.  Does anybody know what that problem 
> was, and what discrepancy the creation of young Crouch corrected?

JKR has said that she ran into a hole in the plot, but she has also 
said that there was a Weasley cousin who got scrapped and replaced 
with Rita Skeeter (JKR needed =someone= to get information outside 
Hogwarts, is what she said, IIRC).  I thought that whatever made her 
switch this around was the gaping plot hole she meant.  Has she said 
anything that makes anyone think the hole had to do with Moody?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 His immediate reaction was that it would 
 be worth becoming a prefect just to be able 
 to use this bathroom.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 20:29:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:29:35 -0000
Subject: What was the Plot-Hole? JKR answers
In-Reply-To: <9d6u38+rpm8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d70jf+6r5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18338

I wrote:

> JKR has said that she ran into a hole in the plot, but she has also 
> said that there was a Weasley cousin who got scrapped and replaced 
> with Rita Skeeter (JKR needed =someone= to get information outside 
> Hogwarts, is what she said, IIRC).  I thought that whatever made her 
> switch this around was the gaping plot hole she meant.  Has she said 
> anything that makes anyone think the hole had to do with Moody?

Should've done this research before, but having written the above I 
went and checked and finally found the relevant interview.  It is 
Entertainment Weekly, Sept. 7, 2000, and can be found at

http://www.hpgalleries.com/c108.htm

Was this the hardest book you've had to write so far?

 Easily. 

 Why?

 The first three books, my plan never failed me. But I should have put 
that plot under a microscope. I wrote what I thought was half
 the book, and "Ack!" Huge gaping hole in the middle of the plot. I 
missed my deadline by two months. And the whole profile of the
 books got so much higher since the third book; there was an edge of 
external pressure. 

 And what exactly was that gaping hole all about?

 I had to pull a character. There you go: "the phantom character of 
'Harry Potter."' She was a Weasley cousin [related to Ron
 Weasley, Harry's best friend]. She served the same function that Rita 
Skeeter [a sleazy investigative journalist] now serves. Rita was
 always going to be in the book, but I built her up, because I needed 
a kind of conduit for information outside the school. Originally,
 this girl fulfilled this purpose. 



Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 However, it is easy to repulse the Pogrebin 
 with simple hexes or Stupefying Charms.  
 Kicking has also been found effective.
     -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
----------------------------------------------





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May  7 20:50:13 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 13:50:13 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What was the Plot-Hole? JKR answers
In-Reply-To: <9d70jf+6r5p@eGroups.com>
References: <9d6u38+rpm8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010507134500.02ef2510@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18339

At 08:29 PM 5/7/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>I had to pull a character. There you go: "the phantom character of
>'Harry Potter."' She was a Weasley cousin [related to Ron
>  Weasley, Harry's best friend]. She served the same function that Rita
>Skeeter [a sleazy investigative journalist] now serves. Rita was
>  always going to be in the book, but I built her up, because I needed
>a kind of conduit for information outside the school. Originally,
>  this girl fulfilled this purpose.

It's still not clear what the hole is... Why couldn't "Icicle" (her rumored
name) have been the "faithful servent at Hogwarts"?  Then Moody could
have been Moody and everything would have made sense.  Is the problem
that it has to have been someone who could have put his name in the GoF?
But she could have, if she was old enough to be a Judge or Tournament
organizer.  (She'd probably have to be to be a Death Eater.)



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May  7 20:56:44 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 13:56:44 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narrative Perspectives was: Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <9d6aap+8n77@eGroups.com>
References: <20010506132637.76796.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010507135230.00d96950@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18340

At 02:09 PM 5/7/01 +0000, lea.macleod at gmx.net wrote:
>I think to remain true to her style, JKR will have to keep this
>narrative device in the future books, which will make it impossible to
>"split" Harry into two.

The other problem I have with the "Snape-as-Harry" idea is that
I'm doubtful of Snape's ability to do an unskewed impersonation.



                         -- Dave




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Mon May  7 21:55:55 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 21:55:55 -0000
Subject: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows
In-Reply-To: <9d6qc6+efpb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d75lb+sh8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18341

Naama wrote:
It's the "the butler did it!" 
kind of solution - pick the least likely character and make him the 
murderer. With no build up. That's what I call a mechanical 
solution, and since JKR is not given to that kind of plotting, I can 
only assume that she made this major plot change at a late stage, 
after a lot of (real) Moody stuff was already written." 

Amy responded:
"This is where we will all just have to speculate until the 
publication  of the Rowling Notebooks(TM), but I'd bet Galleons to 
gherkins that Moody=Crouch was worked out long before book 4 was 
written.  It is a far-fetched solution because of the Dumbledore 
problem, but it's no more un-built-up-to than Quirrell's the bad guy, 
or Riddle's bad and  Ginny's opening the Chamber, or Sirius is good-
Scabbers is Pettigrew-Lupin's a werewolf, IMO."

--I'm sorry Naama but I've got to agree with Amy. The best argument I 
can come up with for this is that if Polyjuice wasn't important in 
future books why did she bother to introduce it in CoS at all? It 
didn't do much for the plot except prove it wasn't Draco opening the 
chamber and providing comic relief with Hermione and the cat. (If 
anyone actually found that funny, I didn't.)

This is why GoF is probably my least favourite book. There are more 
nagging plot inconsistencies in it, than any other. It's still very 
good, don't get me wrong, it's just well I can't really explain.

Scott





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 22:03:24 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:03:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narrative Perspectives was: Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <9d6aap+8n77@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010507220324.92000.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18342

> Has it ever occured to you that all the scenes in all the books so
> far are told entirely from Harrys perspective? There is no scene
in
> which Harry is not present, and those where he cant have been 
> himself are told indirectly by other persons or through magical 
> instruments (e.g.  the pensieve).


There was the Quidditch game in PS/SS when Quirrel was trying to hex
Harry's Broom and Hermione and Ron tried to figure out what to do. 
It ended with Hermione setting Snape temporarily on fire.

That was H/R POV.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon May  7 23:40:11 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 16:40:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RITA SKEETER--CHARACTER SKETCH
In-Reply-To: <3AF62601.C55405DB@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20010507234011.6986.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18343


Cool character sketch Jamieson! I liked the creative element! Certainly
made for interesting reading...

I must admit that I think Rita Skeeter is one of JKR's more boring
characters, so if my answers are short, that's probably why. I *still*
skip over her bits when reading GOF.

> Question:
> 
> 1) Whats with Ritas teeth? How do you suppose she lost them? (be
> creative on this one folks)

Uh, I think I misplaced my creativity somewhere <searches and gives up>
Maybe a pissed-off interviewee punched her in the mouth? I know I
would've wanted to do that if I had been in Harry's shoes! Fell down
the stairs while trying to get a sound bite and knocked out her teeth?

> 2) Do you believe that Rita lies intentionally? Or is there something
> else behind the words?

She's a reporter, she's trying to write a story that will interest
people. People want to read about scandals, shocks. So, she gives them
what they want. I believe its intentional and since witches and wizards
read her, she won't stop making up lies. Only when enough people
complain will she change her writing style or she'll be fired.

> 3) What do you believe are Ritas strongest character traits?

Er...uh...strong-minded? Persistent?

> 4) What are her worst character traits?

The "making up lies" bit would probably be a worst character trait! And
her disregard for privacy.

> 5) Do you believe that there is actually a nice person underneath all
> the deceit?

It's possible, but I don't think that Rita's meant to be a nice
character. She's meant to be annoying and to complicate Harry's life a
bit. I personally can't imagine that she's ever nice, but that's just
my prejudiced opinion.

> 8) Do you think that Rita is lonely, or just vengeful?

I think she's doing what she perceives as her job. She's not vengeful.
I don't know if she's lonely. Could or could not be.

> 10) If you would compare Rita Skeeter to an animal, any one you
> chose, what would it be?  Why?(This ones a fun one. I
> couldnt think of a tenth question; so sue me. Oh, and the answer can
> be anything but a beetle. Again, be creative.)

A gnat. A small, annoying gnat that you just can't seem to smash and
that flies around your head and getting in your face. <smacks one
crawling on her computer screen>

~Amber


=====
"Why shouldn't she arrange the world to suit herself? Wouldn't we all, if we could?"
 - Gregory Maguire, "Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From fruitloophotty at aol.com  Mon May  7 22:24:08 2001
From: fruitloophotty at aol.com (fruitloophotty at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:24:08 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows
Message-ID: <d7.64eae00.28287a88@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18344

Naama wrote:
It's the "the butler did it!" 
kind of solution - pick the least likely character and make him the 
murderer. With no build up. That's what I call a mechanical 
solution, and since JKR is not given to that kind of plotting, I can 
only assume that she made this major plot change at a late stage, 
after a lot of (real) Moody stuff was already written." 

Amy responded:
"This is where we will all just have to speculate until the 
publication? of the Rowling Notebooks(TM), but I'd bet Galleons to 
gherkins that Moody=Crouch was worked out long before book 4 was 
written.? It is a far-fetched solution because of the Dumbledore 
problem, but it's no more un-built-up-to than Quirrell's the bad guy, 
or Riddle's bad and? Ginny's opening the Chamber, or Sirius is good-
Scabbers is Pettigrew-Lupin's a werewolf, IMO."

--Hmm... Until I read all these recent messages, I never really noticed any 
problems with the Moody=Crouch theory. The main inconsistency we seem to have 
here is how Dumbledore wouldn't notice the switch. Wouldn't Dumbledore have 
been on his guard throughout the year, esp. since he even bothered to hire 
Moody in the first place? I recall Sirius saying something in a letter to 
Harry along the lines of, "...they're saying he(Dumbledore) got Moody out of 
retirement, which means he's reading the signs, even if no one else is." So, 
Dumbledore knew along something fishy was going on, and it just bugs me that 
he wouldn't keep an eye on Moody. And Crouch supposedly made the switch the 
night Moody reported someone prowling outside his house, right? I'm not 
really sure if that's right, but if so, you would think that his good friend 
Arthur Weasley would notice the change, if not Dumbledore. 

I'm still not sure which side I'm taking on this matter. There is still the 
possibility that no one would notice the switch. Do we know how close of a 
relationship Moody and Dumbledore had? Did they talk to each other on 
day-to-day basis? And as for knowing the real-Moody's personality traits, 
everyone knew he was extremely paranoid, so not-Moody could easily improvise 
on that trait, plus, as someone mentioned, he could always question 
real-Moody in the trunk. Oh my, what a run-on sentence. I really have no idea 
if any of this makes sense. It sure does in my head.

--Connie, who managed to confuse herself utterly with this whole message.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 04:10:20 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 04:10:20 -0000
Subject: What was the Plot-Hole? JKR answers
In-Reply-To: <9d70jf+6r5p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d7rjc+ig4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18345

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> I wrote:
> 
> > JKR has said that she ran into a hole in the plot, but she has 
also 
> > said that there was a Weasley cousin who got scrapped and replaced 
> > with Rita Skeeter (JKR needed =someone= to get information outside 
> > Hogwarts, is what she said, IIRC).  I thought that whatever made 
her 
> > switch this around was the gaping plot hole she meant.  Has she 
said 
> > anything that makes anyone think the hole had to do with Moody?
> 
> Should've done this research before, but having written the above I 
> went and checked and finally found the relevant interview.  It is 
> Entertainment Weekly, Sept. 7, 2000, and can be found at
> 
> http://www.hpgalleries.com/c108.htm
> 
> Was this the hardest book you've had to write so far?
> 
>  Easily. 
> 
>  Why?
> 
>  The first three books, my plan never failed me. But I should have 
put 
> that plot under a microscope. I wrote what I thought was half
>  the book, and "Ack!" Huge gaping hole in the middle of the plot. I 
> missed my deadline by two months. And the whole profile of the
>  books got so much higher since the third book; there was an edge of 
> external pressure. 
> 
>  And what exactly was that gaping hole all about?
> 
>  I had to pull a character. There you go: "the phantom character of 
> 'Harry Potter."' She was a Weasley cousin [related to Ron
>  Weasley, Harry's best friend]. She served the same function that 
Rita 
> Skeeter [a sleazy investigative journalist] now serves. Rita was
>  always going to be in the book, but I built her up, because I 
needed 
> a kind of conduit for information outside the school. Originally,
>  this girl fulfilled this purpose. 
> 
> 
> 
> Amy Z
> 
Thanks for the info, Amy, but it really doesn't address the theory 
raised by you in message #18330, or by Andrea in #18328, about Mad-Eye 
originally intended simply to be a goodguy DADA teacher, and a plot 
hole necessitated creating the Barty Crouch, Jr. substitution for 
Moody.  JKR herself says that this other plot hole with the Weasley 
cousin was solved by utilizing Rita Skeeter.  I'm still totally at 
sea.  Help!

Haggridd




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 05:01:25 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 05:01:25 -0000
Subject: What Dumbledore (doesn't) knows
In-Reply-To: <9d75lb+sh8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d7uj5+3gdi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18346

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:> Amy 
responded:
> "This is where we will all just have to speculate until the 
> publication  of the Rowling Notebooks(TM), but I'd bet Galleons to 
> gherkins that Moody=Crouch was worked out long before book 4 was 
> written.  It is a far-fetched solution because of the Dumbledore 
> problem, but it's no more un-built-up-to than Quirrell's the bad 
guy, 
> or Riddle's bad and  Ginny's opening the Chamber, or Sirius is good-
> Scabbers is Pettigrew-Lupin's a werewolf, IMO."

Yeah, I agree with Amy, too -- all of those have a dose of deux ex 
machina in them. But if you look back at the books, there were hints. 
Certainly none big enough for the reader to really catch on, but they 
were there. In GoF, for instance, in the scene where Harry's 
in "Moody's" office and looking at the Dark Detectors. A bunch of 
them are disabled because they detected deception -- Moody himself. 
For me, Quirrell is the one who came the most out of the blue. He was 
barely involved at all until the end! Riddle didn't surprise me. 
Ginny did. Lupin was planned, and definitely hinted at. Scabbers-
Pettigrew -- well, there was no way for us to know that. But I truly 
do not believe that JKR "writes by the seat of her pants" at all. I 
think she's got them all planned out to the last detail -- she's even 
said so.

Stacy




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 04:55:52 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 04:55:52 -0000
Subject: What was the Plot-Hole? JKR answers
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010507134500.02ef2510@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9d7u8o+jjdl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18347

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

> It's still not clear what the hole is... Why couldn't "Icicle" (her 
rumored
> name) have been the "faithful servent at Hogwarts"?  Then Moody 
could
> have been Moody and everything would have made sense.  Is the 
problem
> that it has to have been someone who could have put his name in the 
GoF?
> But she could have, if she was old enough to be a Judge or 
Tournament
> organizer.  (She'd probably have to be to be a Death Eater.)
> 
> 
> 
>                          -- Dave

Well, if that was the plan then there is another whole part of the 
books gone -- imagine a Weasley cousin being a Death Eater! That 
would have been quite the scandal. But having to pull an entire 
character is a big deal; all the scenes with that person have to be 
completely rewritten. If I got halfway through a book and realized I 
had to pull a character, I think I'd cry.

But I don't think that's what you're asking. The plot hole is this: 
you can't have two characters fulfilling the same purpose. It's 
wasteful. Plots have to be tight, especially when it's already as 
long as GoF. If you look at HP -- all good books in fact -- each 
character adds something to the story, and none of them bring the 
same thing. You can have a character that you're totally in love 
with, but if she/he doesn't have a definite purpose, you have to get 
rid of him/her. Kill your darlings, as Stephen King said. JKR's books 
are long, but no scene goes wasted. Everything furthers the plot. And 
that was the hole; Icicle wasn't needed. She didn't further the plot. 
And so a lot of time was spent in cutting her out.

Stacy




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Tue May  8 04:41:09 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 04:41:09 -0000
Subject: What was the Plot-Hole? JKR answers
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010507134500.02ef2510@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9d7td5+ef5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18348

> It's still not clear what the hole is.

I don't think she ever said exactly what the plot hole was but she 
did say that Harry faced a problem that was eminently solvable but if 
he solved it as any intelligent person would he would end up in a 
place in the story I didn't want him to be in and the plot would not 
advance. The plot would only work if Harry did something very very 
stupid, but Harry is not stupid. There was no easy way to plug the 
hole so I had to scrap everything and start over again at page 1.   






From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May  8 01:39:49 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:39:49 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Percy?
Message-ID: <49.b186788.2828a865@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18349

oy Mags,
I think you are ok at it all, and percy... he seems like he ought to maybe be 
in hufflepuff.. gryffidors usually aren't afraid to break a couple of rules.  
if perce dopes turn what does that say about gryffidors... WHAT HOUSE WAS 
PETTIGREW???  The latter to could sho wa lot about the houses defining 
characteristics.  
Cheers, Joe 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May  8 01:32:24 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:32:24 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Student
Message-ID: <89.6553e2c.2828a6a8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18350

simon..
I have always gotten the impression ron had troble with school... anyone can 
you sopport this idea, or maybe counter it???
Cheers, Jo 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May  8 07:31:27 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 07:31:27 -0000
Subject: JKR Notebooks described in a book
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F25@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9d87cf+t1d4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18351

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> Hi! What's the author or the ISBN number for the book? Would love 
to learn
> more about it!
> 
> >
> > It wasn't in an online interview, so I don't know if it is 
> > available.  It was actually from a book in the "Telling Tales" 
> > series, which comprises of an interview with JKR, and a summary. >

The author is Lindsey Fraser.  The ISBN is:
0 7497 4394 8
It was published in the UK by Mammoth, which is a division of Egmont 
Children's Books, and it was published around May 2000, so doesn't 
include anything about GoF.

Hope this helps (Amazon probably has it).  I have to say, though, 
that although it is based on a specific interview with JKR, it does 
rehash a lot of stuff that has been answered on line.

Catherine




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May  8 01:49:48 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:49:48 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Draco
Message-ID: <8e.154272b8.2828aabc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18352

I think Malfoy will havve to make a great choise between light and dark, good 
and evil. I also think that he will choose light. Could Snape be his 
(malfoy's) godfather??? If Draco betrays the dark side I believe there a 
conflict between him and Luicius (Lucifer??, the devil...I thought there were 
no religious references), in which Harry will stand by him (bk 7) 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue May  8 09:50:02 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 09:50:02 -0000
Subject: What was the Plot-Hole? JKR answers
In-Reply-To: <9d7rjc+ig4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d8fga+d7l4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18353

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the info, Amy, but it really doesn't address the theory 
> raised by you in message #18330, or by Andrea in #18328, about Mad-
Eye 
> originally intended simply to be a goodguy DADA teacher, and a plot 
> hole necessitated creating the Barty Crouch, Jr. substitution for 
> Moody.  JKR herself says that this other plot hole with the Weasley 
> cousin was solved by utilizing Rita Skeeter.  I'm still totally at 
> sea.  Help!
> 
> Haggridd

It's the other way around - we (I) assumed that there was a plot hole 
necessitating the change BECAUSE there are problems with the False 
Moody solution. For my part, the worst problem is the 
unreasonableness of Crouch hoodwinking Dumbledore for so long. 

However, both Amy Z and Scot have countered with perfectly good 
arguments why the False Moody solution was planned. I especially 
liked Scot's argument - that otherwise JKR wouldn't have introduced 
polyjuice in CoS. (Although, just to be annoying, I might argue that 
it was somebody else (Icicle?) who was intended to be polyjuiced..).

Naama




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May  8 10:40:17 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 10:40:17 -0000
Subject: Evil Percy?
In-Reply-To: <49.b186788.2828a865@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9d8ieh+ad8o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18354

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., browneyes1420 at a... wrote:
> oy Mags,
> I think you are ok at it all, and percy... he seems like he ought 
to maybe be 
> in hufflepuff.. gryffidors usually aren't afraid to break a couple 
of rules.  
> if perce dopes turn what does that say about gryffidors... WHAT 
HOUSE WAS 
> PETTIGREW???  The latter to could sho wa lot about the houses 
defining 
> characteristics.  
> Cheers, Joe 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Excuse me for being dim, but what does "if perce dopes turn" mean?  I 
always assumed that Pettigrew was also in Gryffindor.  We don't see 
many examples of strong inter-house relationships.

Catherine




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Tue May  8 11:43:26 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:43:26 -0000
Subject: Summary - POA Chapters 3 and 4
Message-ID: <9d8m4v+q6a9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18356


CHAPTER THREE - THE KNIGHT BUS
prepared by Jim Flanagan

The chapter begins with Harry having run several blocks to escape the 
wrath of Vernon and/or the MoM's Underage Use of Magic 
Investigators.  Harry was several streets away before he collapsed in 
Magnolia Crescent.

Stranded and alone, he feared that he would be expelled from 
Hogwarts. He had broken the Decree for the Restriction of Underage 
Wizardry for which he had already received a citation the previous 
year on account of a spell cast by Dobby.

Harry worried about was going to happen to him: arrest, expulsion 
from the wizarding world? He had no way to contact Ron and Hermione, 
either.  He had no money, but he did have his trunk containing his 
wand, his schoolbooks, broomstick, and Invisibility Cloak.  He 
thought to use the Invisibility Cloak to help him in his escape, but 
before he could dig it out, a funny prickling on the back of his neck 
had made him feel that he was being watched.  He cast the "Lumos" 
spell, making a dazzling light come out the end of his wand. He held 
the wand high over his head, and saw "the hulking outline of 
something very big, with wide, gleaming eyes."

Harry jumped, falling into the gutter painfully. Presently there was 
a loud BANG, announcing the arrival of the Knight Bus.  Harry rolled 
back onto the pavement, just in time, he thought, to avoid being run 
over.

Harry learned from the conductor, Stan Shunpike, that this was the 
Knight Bus, "emergency transport for the stranded witch or wizard."  
Apparently, just by holding out his wand in that particular manner, 
he had inadvertently "hailed" the Bus.  Harry saw that Stan Shunpike 
was only a few years older than he was. After a bit of conversation, 
Harry told Stan about the big dog that he had seen, but Stan didn't 
respond, and instead asked about Harry's scar.  Fearing recognition, 
Harry quickly covered the scar, and said that his name was Neville 
Longbottom, "the first name that came into his head."

Stan told him that the fare to London was 11 sickles (15 with hot 
chocolate). Instead of seats there were half a dozen brass bedsteads 
(and, presumably, beds) beside the curtained windows. Harry was given 
the "seat" right behind the driver, Ernie Prang, an elderly wizard 
wearing very thick glasses, who was sitting in an armchair.

With a BANG, the Knight Bus took off again, and resumed its 
trajectory over Wales.  The next stop was Abergavenny.  Harry learned 
that Muggles couldn't see nor hear the Bus, because "they don' listen 
properly," according to Stan.

Stan went upstairs to fetch the passenger who was debarking at 
Abergavenny, a "faintly green witch wrapped in a traveling cloak."  
Stan threw her bag out after her and rammed the doors shut (a violent 
image, but not unfamiliar to anyone who has ridden the Los Angeles 
RTD).

Harry's stomach churned as he wondered what was going to happen to 
him.

Stan had was reading a copy of the Daily Prophet, which featured a 
large picture of Sirius Black.  Harry saw it, and told Stan that he'd 
seen the same man on the Muggle news. "Neville" read that the MoM had 
informed the Muggle Prime Minister of the escape. He also learned 
more details of Black's crime: murder of 13 people with a single 
curse. Stan and Ernie told Harry that Black was a "big supporter of 
You-Know-'Oo," perhaps even his second-in-command. After he had 
murdered the people, he laughed.  And when the MoM got there, he went 
peacefully, "still laughing his head off."

Stan & Ern had some rather negative things to say about Azkaban and 
its staff, saying that if Black weren't insane when he went in, he 
surely would have gone insane after a while inside.  Harry learned 
that the cover story told to the Muggles had been that it was a gas 
explosion.

Harry reflected that he himself had broken wizard law just like 
Sirius (by inflating Aunt Marge). He imagined himself thrown into 
Azkaban, like Hagrid, who had been there twice.

More witches and wizards disembarked from the bus, looking very 
pleased to leave.  Finally, Harry was the only passenger left.  Harry 
watched as the Knight Bus approached Diagon Alley and skidded to a 
halt in front the Leaky Cauldron, where Minister of Magic Cornelius 
Fudge was waiting, looking cold and exhausted. Fudge 
identified "Neville" as Harry Potter to Stan.  Fudge took Harry into 
the Leaky Cauldron quickly.

Tom, the landlord, said, "You've got him, Minister!" indicating that 
Fudge and Tom had been awaiting Harry's arrival for some time.

Fudge and Tom took Harry to a small parlor where Fudge introduced 
himself and explained the situation. The MoM, which was in "a right 
flap" by Harry's sudden disappearance, had dealt with the blowing-up 
of Aunt Marge.  Her memories had been altered, but Vernon's and 
Petunia's had not, although they were "extremely angry," and had 
asked that Harry stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas and Easter 
holidays. Harry said that he *always* stayed at Hogwarts during the 
holidays.  

Fudge said that Harry was to stay at Diagon Alley for the remaining 
two weeks until the start of term.  Harry asked about his punishment 
for blowing up his Aunt, but Fudge said that they were not going to 
punish him "for a little thing like that." Harry asked Fudge why the 
rules had apparently changed, but Fudge looked uncomfortable and 
said, "Circumstances change... surely you don't want to be expelled?" 
Now that Harry thought about it, he realized that it would have been 
highly unusual for the Minister of Magic himself to get involved in 
trivial matters like underage magic.

Harry was given room 11 at the Leaky Cauldron where he would stay the 
two weeks. Fudge told him not to go out into Muggle London, but to 
stay in Diagon Alley and the Leaky Cauldron, where Tom would look out 
for him. Harry asked Fudge if there had been any word about Black 
yet, but Fudge, looking nervous, said no, but that it was just a 
matter of time.

Before Fudge departed, Harry asked him if he would sign the 
permission form so that he could visit Hogsmeade, but Fudge refused, 
saying that he would be safer if he didn't venture out of Hogwarts.

Fudge left and Tom took Harry to his comfortable new room.  Hedwig 
was already there, having arrived 5 minutes after Harry had.  Harry 
stroked Hedwig, not believing his luck.  Then, without even removing 
his glasses, he fell asleep.


CHAPTER FOUR - THE LEAKY CAULDRON

It took Harry several days to get used to his new freedom at Diagon 
Alley. He ate breakfast each morning in the Leaky Cauldron, where he 
watched other witches and wizards and assorted other magical beings.  
Harry spent his days exploring the shops and eating under the 
brightly colored umbrellas outside cafes, discussing various things, 
including the case of Sirius Black. Harry did his homework in the 
open, with help and encouragement from Florean Fortescue.

Harry refilled his money bag at Gringotts, and had to exercise a lot 
of self-control not to spend it all at the shops at Diagon Alley. The 
thing that tested his resolution most was the Firebolt racing broom 
at Quality Quidditch Supplies.  Harry didn't like to think how much 
gold the Firebolt would cost, but he returned, almost every day to 
look at the Firebolt.

Harry went to the Apothecary to replenish his potions ingredients, 
and he visited Madam Malkin's for new robes. He bought his new 
schoolbooks, including those for his two new subjects, Care of 
Magical Creatures and Divination at Flourish and Blotts.

To the relief of the clerk, Harry already had the Magical Creatures 
book, but asked to see the Divination book, Unfogging the Future by 
Cassandra Vablatsky.  But Harry saw another book on display nearby: 
Death Omens - What to Do When You Know the Worst Is Coming.  The 
front cover of which "showed a black dog large as a bear, with 
gleaming eyes. It looked oddly familiar..."

As the days passed many Hogwarts students had begun to arrive in 
Diagon Alley. On the last day of holidays Harry finally met up with 
Ron & Hermione, who were sitting outside Florean Fortescue's Ice 
Cream Parlor.  Ron knew through his father that Harry had been 
staying at the Leaky Cauldron.  Hermione asked Harry if he had really 
blown up his aunt. Ron roared with laughter, but Hermione thought it 
was very serious. Harry said that he didn't mean to do it.  Hermione 
said that she was amazed that Harry hadn't been expelled. Ron 
laughed, "Probably 'cause it's you, isn't it? ... Famous Harry Potter 
and all that."

Ron and Hermione had gotten all their school stuff, including Ron's 
new wand, "Fourteen inches, willow, containing one unicorn tail-
hair."  Hermione had a lot of books because she was taking more 
subjects, including Arithmancy, Care of Magical Creatures, 
Divination, the Study of Ancient Runes, and Muggle Studies."
Hermione was mum when they asked how she was going to manage all the 
extra work.

Hermione had ten Galleons unspent birthday money which she planned to 
use to buy an owl. The trio went to the magical creature shop where 
Hermione could look at owls, and Ron could get a tonic for Scabbers.  
Harry, Ron, and Hermione waited while the clerk finished waiting on 
another customer, examining the animals in the many cages. They saw a 
variety of creatures including a pair of enormous purple toads, a 
gigantic tortoise with a jewel-encrusted shell, poisonous orange 
snails, and a fat white rabbit that kept changing into a silk top 
hat. There were cats of every color, ravens, funny custard-colored 
furballs that were humming loudly, and a cage of sleek black rats.

When it was their turn to be waited on, Ron showed Scabbers to the 
clerk. She determined that Scabbers was rather old for an "ordinary 
common garden rat" which only lives 3 years or so. But Ron didn't 
want a replacement rat, so she offered a rat tonic.

Suddenly, "something huge and orange came soaring from the top of the 
highest cage," landing on Ron's head and going madly after Scabbers.

Scabbers ran out of the store and took refuge under a wastepaper bin 
outside Quality Quidditch Supplies. It took Ron and Harry 10 minutes 
to catch it again.  Meanwhle, Hermione had stayed behind in the shop, 
where she had bought the large orange cat, named Crookshanks.

Ron was angry when he found out that Hermione had bought the cat that 
had attacked Scabbers.  Hermione minimized this, saying that the cat 
would sleep in the girls' dorm, and wouldn't bother Scabbers.  She 
gave the bottle of rat tonic to Ron, who had forgotten to get it 
while he was in the shop.

Going back into the Leaky Cauldron, they found Mr. Weasley in the bar 
reading the Daily Prophet. Seeing the picture of Sirius Black on the 
cover, Harry asked if they had caught him yet. Mr. Weasley responded 
that every one at the Ministry had been pulled off their regular jobs 
to try and find him.  Ron asked if there would be a reward if someone 
caught him, but Mr. Weasley responded that the Azkaban guards would 
capture him "not some thirteen year old wizard."

Mrs. Weasley then entered carrying shopping bags and followed by the 
twins, Fred and George, along with Head Boy Percy, and Ginny, who 
seemed embarrassed when she saw Harry. There was a "bit 'o business" 
about being Head Boy between Percy and the twins.

The Weasleys, Harry, and Hermione had dinner that night at the inn.  
They learned that the Ministry was providing them with cars to take 
them to the Hogwarts express the next morning. Percy asked why the 
Ministry was providing cars for them.  Mr. Weasley dissembled, saying 
something about how they didn't have one any more and so they were 
just doing him a favor, but Harry noticed that his ears had gone red.

After dinner everyone made their way upstairs to their rooms to check 
their things for the journey. Ron and Percy were next door to Harry. 
He heard angry voices of Ron and Percy through the wall, and went to 
see what was going on. Percy's Head Boy badge and Ron's rat tonic 
were both missing.  Harry volunteered to go downstairs to look for 
the rat tonic.

On the way, heard another pair of angry voices coming from the 
parlor -- Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. He stopped and listened. He learned 
that Sirius Black had been saying "he's at Hogwarts" in his sleep 
while at Azkaban.  Mrs. Weasley thought that the truth would terrify 
him, but Mr. Weasley said that he had a right to know.  Mrs. Weasley 
said, "But no one's really sure that Black's after Harry."  She also 
said that Harry would be safe while at Hogwarts because Dumbledore 
would protect him.  Arthur pointed out that Black had already 
demonstrated that he could escape from Azkaban. He said that Azkaban 
guards would be posted at Hogwarts, which Dumbledore was not happy 
about.

Harry hid as Mr. and Mrs. Weasley left the parlor and went up to bed. 
He found the bottle of rat tonic lying under the table where they had 
sat earlier and returned upstairs.  He encountered Fred and George, 
who were hiding and laughing as they listened to Percy searching the 
room for his badge. They had altered the badge so that it now 
read "Bighead Boy."

Harry went back to his room and tried to process what he had 
overheard: 
 
 - Sirius Black was after him [or so the MoM believed]. This 
explained why Fudge had been lenient with him and why he had made him 
promise to stay in Diagon Alley. And it explained why the MoM was 
loaning the Weasleys the cars the following day to take Harry to the 
train.

- Harry didn't feel more scared thinking that Sirius Black was after 
*him*. But Harry agreed with Mrs. Weasley that he would be safe with 
Dumbledore. And with the Azkaban guards, Harry felt that he would be 
safe inside Hogwarts.

The narrator says that the thing that most bothered Harry was that he 
probably wouldn't get to visit Hogsmeade like the other students. 
Harry suspected that he would be watched closely until the perceived 
danger had passed.

Harry reflected on the fact that the adults thought that he still had 
to be protected:  "Did they think he couldn't look after himself? 
He'd escaped Lord Voldemort three times; he wasn't completely 
useless...."  But then, the image of the beast in Magnolia Crescent 
came back to him. Harry finally resolves, "I'm not going to be 
murdered."

QUESTIONS

1.  Was it a coincidence that the wand gesture that Harry made while 
looking for the big dog was exactly what was needed to call the 
Knight Bus?  Could the whole thing have been orchestrated by the MoM, 
or was this just a convenient Deus ex Machina for the author?

2.  Is there any significance to the name "Knight Bus?" [In the 
French edition, it is the Magicobus.]

3.  Did Fudge know that Harry was on his way to Diagon Alley on the 
Knight Bus?  If so, how?  If not, why was he there waiting on the 
curb?

4.  Is Crookshanks an animagus or otherwise magical? If not, why did 
he go after Scabbers in particular?

5.  Was Hermione's attitude about Crookshanks realistic and 
consistent with her other attitudes and actions?  Why does she 
minimize Ron's feelings about the danger the Crookshanks poses to 
Scabbers?  Could she be under some kind of spell that caused her to 
buy the cat?

6.  Why were the Ministry so concerned about Harry's safety?  After 
all, he is *only* a celebrity, "the boy who lived." Are they mainly 
worried about PR implications of losing Harry, or could there be 
something more profound about Harry that we don't know yet, such as a 
prophesy about him?

7.  Are the adults being overprotective of Harry? [Ebony, if you are 
reading this: what do real 13-year-olds think about this question?]

Bonus: What are Stan's and Ern's accents?  My uneducated guesses are 
EE and West Country, respectively. [Discuss on OT-Chatter, please.]





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May  8 11:57:31 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:57:31 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - POV
Message-ID: <9d8mvb+sgk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18357

Haggridd wrote:

>Thanks for the info, Amy, but it really doesn't address the theory 
>raised by you in message #18330, or by Andrea in #18328, about 
Mad-Eye 
>originally intended simply to be a goodguy DADA teacher, and a plot 
>hole necessitated creating the Barty Crouch, Jr. substitution for 
>Moody. 

Well, I quoted JKR in order to show that if people are wondering what 
the admitted plot hole was, the answer has nothing to do with the 
Moody plotline, AFAWK.  It seems to have had to do with how to get 
information outside the school.  Some who think Moody/Crouch is 
farfetched seem to be using "JKR said she had to rewrite a major 
chunk" as evidence that this plotline got rewritten, and there's no 
support for this, as far as I can tell.  If you find Moody/Crouch 
unbelievable, it may have to be blamed on JKR's overall plotting or 
judgment, and not on her having had to scramble to turn someone at 
Hogwarts into a Death Eater.  (I personally don't think Moody/Crouch 
is that farfetched.  When I said it worked as well as the surprises at 
the ends of the other books, I meant that as a compliment--they were 
all hinted at adequately, as Stacy said.)

But now I'm getting intrigued: why =did= JKR need someone to be 
carrying info out of the school, Skeeter-style?  This certainly takes 
up a lot of GF, but I would have said that you could excise it without 
damaging the plot (it would still be enough to make a writer weep, as 
Stacy said--what a lot of work rewriting all those scenes...).  As 
things stand at the end of GF, Rita has made life more miserable for 
Hermione, Harry, and Hagrid, but has had no significant impact 
otherwise--i.e., this plotline is important to character but not to 
plot.  Is something important going to come of one of her articles, 
e.g. the thought someone threw out last week that because of them, 
Fudge has been shifted from admiring/indulging Harry to really 
believing he is dangerous?  

Stacy wrote:

>Everything furthers the plot. And 
>that was the hole; Icicle wasn't needed. She didn't further the plot. 
>And so a lot of time was spent in cutting her out.

I don't think so.  It sounds possible that she DID further the plot; 
she did what Rita now does for it--get private information out into 
the public.  For some reason we don't know, she didn't work and the 
reporter character had to be expanded.

Magda wrote:

>There was the Quidditch game in PS/SS when Quirrel was trying to hex
>Harry's Broom and Hermione and Ron tried to figure out what to do. 
>It ended with Hermione setting Snape temporarily on fire.

>That was H/R POV.

To be precise, that scene is third-person 
whateveryoucallitwhenthenarratorisn'tinANYONE'Shead (however I search, 
I can't find a term for this POV).  We see things Harry can't see, 
which distinguishes it from the vast majority of the narration 
(third-person limited to Harry), but we don't get anyone else's POV.  
We only know of Ron and Hermione what we'd know if we were sitting 
next to them in the stands.

The first part of the first chapter of PS/SS and the first chapter of 
GF are the only ones where third-person limited is used but is limited 
to the POV of a character besides Harry:  Vernon and Frank, 
respectively.  After Vernon goes to bed in PS/SS 1, the narration is 
as at the first Quidditch match--third person, showing us things Harry 
can't see yet not letting us into the thoughts of Dumbledore, 
McGonagall, or Hagrid.

Amy Z
League of Obsessed Nitpickers

---------------------------------------------
 "I might remind you that =your= pincushion,
 Thomas, still curls up in fright if anyone
 approaches it with a pin!"
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Tue May  8 01:28:21 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:28:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Returned to LV?
References: <9d5j43+rens@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF74BB5.95C61F7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18358

Not responding to anyone in particular, and not having a great load of
time in which to pontificate, but has anyone considered this? If Snape
*did* return to Voldemort (which I personally believe), I think he did
it right after he left the hospital wing. So, think of what he returned
to. Voldemort trying to save as much face as he can with the Death
Eaters, who have just seen Harry escape from him again. I think
Voldemort would have been in a less strong position than many of us are
thinking. Snape's return would have said something strong to the
disillusioned DeathEaters. Snape's avowal of loyalty to Voldemort, and
the consequent strategic value of a new avenue into the stronghold of
the other side, would have given Voldemort exactly the kind of card he'd
need to play in order to strengthen his position in the eyes of the
DeathEaters. So I think that perhaps Snape's re-insinuation, given the
circumstances of Voldemort right then, might not have been as bad or as
farfetched as we've been discussing.

Just a thought. Gotta go do kitchen-elfy things now.

--Amanda (yeah, throw Snape in the line and I'm there)




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 13:32:06 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 06:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary - POA Chapters 3 and 4
In-Reply-To: <9d8m4v+q6a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010508133206.29275.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18359


--- Jim Flanagan <jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:QUESTIONS
> 1.  Was it a coincidence that the wand gesture that Harry made while 
> looking for the big dog was exactly what was needed to call the 
> Knight Bus?  Could the whole thing have been orchestrated by the MoM,

> or was this just a convenient Deus ex Machina for the author?

I've always found that part a big dodgy. I mean, you just have to stick
out your wand hand in a particular manner? Very vague, you'd think that
the Knight Bus would get TONS of accident summons'. I happen to think
its just a Deus ex Machina for JKR, personally. Maybe it could've been
orchestrated by the MoM, but only if they knew the second when Harry
blew up Aunt Marge and were able to work really, really fast. Somehow,
in this day of bureacracy, I find it unlikely.

> 2.  Is there any significance to the name "Knight Bus?" [In the 
> French edition, it is the Magicobus.]

<grin> I've wondered about this as well. When I first read PoA, I
didn't "read" it. I heard it on tape originally. And I thought that
Knight Bus was spelled "Night" Bus. Imagine my surprise when I read the
book and found out it was spelled "Knight". Well, obviously there has
to be some reason for this, JKR wouldn't just throw a "k" on the front
of night just for the heck of it. However, I'm clueless; any
hypotheses?

> 3.  Did Fudge know that Harry was on his way to Diagon Alley on the 
> Knight Bus?  If so, how?  If not, why was he there waiting on the 
> curb?

Hm, interesting point...PoA is turning out to have more depth then I
thought it was! I find it hard to believe that Fudge would just hang
outside of the Leaky Cauldron for kicks. That seems to argue that Fudge
*knew* that Harry would head straight for Diagon Alley. And why send
the Minister, who probably has more important things to do, when an
lackey could've done just as well. Hmmm...questions, questions!

> 5.  Was Hermione's attitude about Crookshanks realistic and 
> consistent with her other attitudes and actions?  Why does she 
> minimize Ron's feelings about the danger the Crookshanks poses to 
> Scabbers?  Could she be under some kind of spell that caused her to 
> buy the cat?

I've always wondered by Hermione didn't show more compassion about
Scabbers or at least *try* to reign in her cat more. My only answer is
that she was just too darn busy. If Hermione would have had a lighter
courseload, she could've dealt with the situation properly but school
came first. Henceforth, her terrible handling of the situation.

> 7.  Are the adults being overprotective of Harry? [Ebony, if you are 
> reading this: what do real 13-year-olds think about this question?]

Absolutely not. One thing that *shocked* me in the books is that Harry
deliberately goes to Hogsmeade when he *knows* that his life could be
in danger. That was incredibly stupid in my estimation. Granted, Sirius
wasn't going to harm Harry, but that wasn't known at the time. If I had
been in his shoes at his age, I wouldn't have even dreamed about
leaving Hogwarts without any of the teaching staff knowing. For
goodness sakes, he's only 13, he's *maybe* a third trained in magic, he
is not able to judge situations correctly IMHO.

~Amber
 

=====
"toil, toil, toil, toil, toil,
TOIL!
the world is NOT made of money;
it's made of plants, roots, trees,
breaths of air, lizards darting in the leaves..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue May  8 13:33:25 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 09:33:25 -0400 
Subject: Psychologists say HP is wonderful!
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F35@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18360

An article at
http://www.salon.com/books/wire/2001/05/08/potter_shrinks/index.html
discusses how good the books are for children.
At the American Psychiatric Association's four-day annual meeting, there was
a symposium about the books where the consensus was that it was useful for
child psychologists to connect with their younger patients - however, one
connecticut doctor said he has worked with some children who've became
obsessed with Harry Potter and take the books as proof that they don't have
to obey adults. 
Methinks that said children may be predisposed to such things and if HP
wasn't around, they would've used Bart Simpson or something instead. The
same doctor said the girl was much improved now that she's reading Nancy
Drew. 

um.

um.

Now I have to admit that I haven't read any nancy drew books since I was
about 11, although a college classmate of mine has written a few of them,
but am I right when I say that (a) Nancy is about 17, not 11 thru 14, and
(b) Nancy, similarly to Harry, does all her sleuthing without the presence
or assistance of adults, and frequently nearly gets killed or captured by
Bad People?
Putting aside the whole "magic" issue for a moment, how is a seventeen year
old crime solver who pretty much does what she wants a better person for a
troubled child to model herself on than Harry is? 



From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Tue May  8 13:19:52 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:19:52 +0200
Subject: Harry as Prefect
Message-ID: <20010508130757.BA67C11C2F@postfix1.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18361

Hello all.

Now with the fifth book comming up JKR needs to appoint Prefects from Harrys 
year.

And while Herminione must be the female Prefect of the house from that year. 
That leaves us a male down. Now I dont see Ron as School prefect, Neville have 
to be completely out of the question, and we havent really heard anything 
about the exploits of Seamus and Dean. That leaves us with Harry.

Now, while Harry getting the job, probably wont have much influence on the 
plot. It is an interesting thought.

Darreder

----------------------------------------------------
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K?b ind p? nettet - pr?v det p? http://www.ofir.dk/shopping
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 13:07:17 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 06:07:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RITA SKEETER--CHARACTER SKETCH
In-Reply-To: <20010507234011.6986.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010508130717.12470.qmail@web216.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18362

--- Amber <reanna20 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Cool character sketch Jamieson! I liked the creative
> element! Certainly
> made for interesting reading...

I'll agree with that, nice to have somthing out of the
ordinary once in a while. I chuckled all the way
through it.
> 
> I must admit that I think Rita Skeeter is one of
> JKR's more boring
> characters, so if my answers are short, that's
> probably why. I *still*
> skip over her bits when reading GOF.

While I don't exactly find her boring, I certainly
think she's just too annoying for my taste.
> 
> > Question:
> > 
> > 1) Whats with Ritas teeth? How do you suppose
> she lost them? (be
> > creative on this one folks)
> 
> Uh, I think I misplaced my creativity somewhere
> <searches and gives up>
> Maybe a pissed-off interviewee punched her in the
> mouth? I know I
> would've wanted to do that if I had been in Harry's
> shoes! Fell down
> the stairs while trying to get a sound bite and
> knocked out her teeth?

I vote for the 'pissed-off interviewee'punching her in
the mouth - she's definitely ticked off enough people
for that to be possible.
> 
> > 2) Do you believe that Rita lies intentionally? Or
> is there something
> > else behind the words?
> 
> She's a reporter, she's trying to write a story that
> will interest
> people. People want to read about scandals, shocks.
> So, she gives them
> what they want. I believe its intentional and since
> witches and wizards
> read her, she won't stop making up lies. Only when
> enough people
> complain will she change her writing style or she'll
> be fired.

I'm not sure enough complaints would do the job.
Perhaps she helps sell so many papers that The Daily
Prophet just keeps smoothing things over in wake, thus
keeping her employed and them making lots of money. I
didn't see Hermione cancelling her subscription or
firing off letters to the editor when Rita was writing
all the trash about the happenings at Hogwarts.
> 
> > 3) What do you believe are Ritas strongest
> character traits?
> 
> Er...uh...strong-minded? Persistent?

Well, she's certainly tenacious, if nothing else. You
know, 'anything to get the story' type of thing.
> 
> > 4) What are her worst character traits?
> 
> The "making up lies" bit would probably be a worst
> character trait! And
> her disregard for privacy.

Yeah, those are probably the worst of a long line of
things I don't like about her.
> 
> > 5) Do you believe that there is actually a nice
> person underneath all
> > the deceit?
> 
> It's possible, but I don't think that Rita's meant
> to be a nice
> character. She's meant to be annoying and to
> complicate Harry's life a
> bit. I personally can't imagine that she's ever
> nice, but that's just
> my prejudiced opinion.

While I agree that she's not meant to be a nice
character, there's no telling what she was like when
she was young. She might have been a perfectly
agreeable little child (though I can't picture it
myself!).
> 
> > 8) Do you think that Rita is lonely, or just
> vengeful?
> 
> I think she's doing what she perceives as her job.
> She's not vengeful.
> I don't know if she's lonely. Could or could not be.

I'm with you on the first part, she doesn't see
herself as vengeful, she just doing what needs to be
done to get the story and keep selling papers. As for
lonely, well, I think she must be. Let's face it, she
doesn't endear herself to people and I suspect that
she may have long since alienated most of the friends
she must have had. I mean, she must have had friends
at some point, don't you think. I can't see a lot of
people sticking by her, though.
> 
> > 10) If you would compare Rita Skeeter to an
> animal, any one you
> > chose, what would it be?  Why?(This ones a fun
> one. I
> > couldnt think of a tenth question; so sue me. Oh,
> and the answer can
> > be anything but a beetle. Again, be creative.)
> 
> A gnat. A small, annoying gnat that you just can't
> seem to smash and
> that flies around your head and getting in your
> face. <smacks one
> crawling on her computer screen>
> 
> ~Amber
> 
I like this! A gnat. That pretty much says it, doesn't
it. Goes very well with my thoughts, completely
annoying!

Sheryll

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May  8 15:06:57 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 15:06:57 -0000
Subject: Summary - POA Chapters 3 and 4
In-Reply-To: <9d8m4v+q6a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d922h+uruh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18363

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:
> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Was it a coincidence that the wand gesture that Harry made 
while 
> looking for the big dog was exactly what was needed to call the 
> Knight Bus?  Could the whole thing have been orchestrated by the 
MoM, 
> or was this just a convenient Deus ex Machina for the author?

Probably is a Deus ex Machina, but on the other hand, how does Fudge 
know that the most likely place Harry is to turn up is the Leaky 
Cauldron?

> 2.  Is there any significance to the name "Knight Bus?" [In the 
> French edition, it is the Magicobus.]

I always thought that it was a Knight Bus, because it came to the 
rescue of stranded witches and wizards - reference to 
Medieval "Knights in shining armour."

> 4.  Is Crookshanks an animagus or otherwise magical? If not, why 
did 
> he go after Scabbers in particular?

Hasn't JKR confirmed that Crookshanks is part/half (however that was 
resolved, I can't remember) kneazle.  If so, then it is no wonder he 
earmarked Scabbers as Kneazles have an "uncanny ability to detect 
unsavoury or suspicious characters" (FB)  It also explains why 
Crookshanks trusted Sirius in dog form, as his instincts told him 
that Sirius was trustworthy.  Therefore it isn't animagi he 
distrusts, but individuals.


> 5.  Was Hermione's attitude about Crookshanks realistic and 
> consistent with her other attitudes and actions?  Why does she 
> minimize Ron's feelings about the danger the Crookshanks poses to 
> Scabbers?  Could she be under some kind of spell that caused her to 
> buy the cat?

I think that Hermione's choice in Crookshanks is an early 
manifestation of "Hermione - champion of the underdog", which is 
developed in GoF regarding house elves, giants (and Neville!).  I 
think that she feels sorry for Crookshanks because nobody wants him.  
She also probably subconsciously recognises his intelligence as 
well.  

I can't explain why she minimizes Ron's feelings re Crookshanks and 
Scabbers, apart from the fact that year she was under a huge amount 
of pressure.  She probably rationalised it when she says that 
Crookshanks and Scabbers wouldn't often be in the same room together.

> 6.  Why were the Ministry so concerned about Harry's safety?  After 
> all, he is *only* a celebrity, "the boy who lived." Are they mainly 
> worried about PR implications of losing Harry, or could there be 
> something more profound about Harry that we don't know yet, such as 
a 
> prophesy about him?

If Sirius Black managed to kill Harry Potter, after Voldemort had 
failed, imagine the repercussions.  I think that many in the 
wizarding community see Harry as a kind of symbol that the Dark Lord 
has been defeated, and it would seriously damage morale if he were to 
be killed at this stage.  Also, it would reflect very badly on the 
MoM if Sirius was allowed anywhere close to Harry (or any other 
child, for that matter).

However, I really think that it is something to do with Professor 
Trelawney's first prediction.  Perhaps the MoM know that Harry has 
some other, more important role to play in the future.  Against this 
argument is the fact that Fudge buries his head in the sand regarding 
the return of Voldemort in GoF - it seems that as far as he is 
concerned, Voldemort is out of the picture.
>
 7.  Are the adults being overprotective of Harry? [Ebony, if you are 
> reading this: what do real 13-year-olds think about this question?]

How can they be?  A allegedly dangerous criminal is on the loose, and 
the MoM believe that he has killed at least 13 people (I say at 
least, because they probably suspect him of other killings whilst a 
DE).  Harry has gone AWOL, they don't know where he is, or where he 
is going, and they know that Sirius Black is after him.  I would say 
that this gives pretty strong reasons for them wanting to protect 
Harry.  Mrs Weasley, IMO, tends to romanticise Harry - she is the 
greatest culprit in wanting to protect and mother him.  Mr Weasley is 
more realistic.  Do they assume that Harry knows that Sirius is 
believed to be responsible for James' and Lily's deaths?  Mr Weasley 
asks him not to go after Sirius, so it seems so.


Catherine




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 06:10:40 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 02:10:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco and another HP college course
References: <9d6e0n+fe1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c0d785$9fc53e60$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18364

heidi wrote:
***As Cassie & I have discussed many times, we do not like the idea that 
someone who JKR introduced us to as a ten-or-eleven-year-old child is 
going to do nothing but follow some pre-ordained path to evil. If it 
is our choices that make us what we are, then shouldn't Draco get a 
choice at some point? Or is he just there to be hauled by Lucius 
Malfoy, who is evil, to Voldemort's side, then held down to get the 
Dark Mark, then trapped in the Evil!Universe forever? At a minimum, 
he could at least have a conflict about accepting the evil in him, 
and becoming evil - to be honest, that wouldn't bother me as much as 
it would if there's no demonstration of his making that decision. 
Right now he's spouting the vitriol he's been taught - but he also 
might be warning hermione (at the World Cup) and the rest of the (on 
the train). ***

Draco's a messy topic.  I'm not sure how to react to a lot of the debate on him, because I think a lot of my intrepretations are based on *my* wish for Draco to not be an evil git more than what is really present in the books.

The one thing I am certain of when I see Draco is how much he reminds me of friends I had in high school.  I bet there isn't a person on this list who hasn't known someone in that sort of situation.  The person I'm thinking of in particular wasn't really a friend, just an acquaintance.  Her parents were divorced, the family was struggling to get by, and she was not goign to be able to go to college.  She had to get a job and she would complain all the time that she could just see her life spiraling into the same trap her parents had fallen into, and she couldn't find a way out.

I see Draco in a very similiar trap.  His parents have a very clear set of expectations laid out for him, his life is pretty much planned out and he really doesn't have a foothold anywhere.  I think he's desparate for some sort of control, somewhere, anywhere, and he'll take what he can get, and making fun of Gryffindors, and a lot of his other actions, is a way to have that.  

I do think Draco's going to have a chance to make a choice, but I don't see it as much as deciding to be "good" or "evil" as much as choosing to let his dad control his life...or to finally make his own decisions.  For him, good and evil are secondary.  I can see him switching sides, should he decide to move away from his father, but more to establish himself as an individual than out of a desire to be "good."

Part of the whole Draco issue is the fact, which so many people have touched on, that we only see him through Harry's eyes.  If we got to see Draco in the Slytherin common room, or at home with Daddy Dearest, I think we'd have an incredibly viewpoint, but unless JKR decides to start mucking with her formula (and i hope she doesn't!) we'll have to stick to our imaginations...the incredibly fertile places that they are <g>.

Harry at college:

regarding the whole college classes on HP -- I'm a student at Binghamton University, everyone's favorite SUNY school (so I plug state funded education shamelessly.  Deal <g>).  This year's summer session includes an english course devoted to the HP books, which is now making me very sour that I can't stay for the session. For general interest (and anyone who might be in the area at that time, unlike me...):

      Department: ENGLISH, GENERAL LITERATURE AND RHETORIC 
      Course Number: ENG 112H Section: 01 Term: II Credits: 4  
      Course Type: Discussion 
      Description: Harry Potter mania is sweeping the country in full force; with the upcoming movie and the promise of three more books, that is not likely to slow down. In this course, we will take a close look at the books themselves, at the plots, characters, and themes that weave together to create the highly popular, and somewhat controversial, world of Harry Potter.  Students will read the Harry Potter books, as well as theoretical work dealing with myths.  Format: Students should expect lively discussions, group projects, and emphasis on the writing process.  At least 50% of the grade will be based on writing and revising several short papers totaling 20 pages.  Students will be expected to revise their work in response to instructor commentary, peer review, and self-editing techniques.

      I have a friend who might be taking this class so I'll let everyone know at the end of it what she thought.  

      Abbie, who would much rather take a class on Harry than the boring history class she's currently up all night writing papers for... blaah.  :-p 
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May  8 15:18:03 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 15:18:03 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - discrediting Harry - Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <9d8mvb+sgk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d92nb+75oh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18365

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> But now I'm getting intrigued: why =did= JKR need someone to be 
> carrying info out of the school, Skeeter-style?  This certainly 
takes 
> up a lot of GF, but I would have said that you could excise it 
without 
> damaging the plot (it would still be enough to make a writer weep, 
as 
> Stacy said--what a lot of work rewriting all those scenes...).  As 
> things stand at the end of GF, Rita has made life more miserable 
for 
> Hermione, Harry, and Hagrid, but has had no significant impact 
> otherwise--i.e., this plotline is important to character but not to 
> plot.  Is something important going to come of one of her articles, 
> e.g. the thought someone threw out last week that because of them, 
> Fudge has been shifted from admiring/indulging Harry to really 
> believing he is dangerous?  


This was my first (and only, so far!) view on the matter.  I think 
that JKR is trying to undermine Harry's position - make him less 
popular, and make out that his dreams/behaviour are incipient signs 
of madness etc.  All necessary to shake the MoM's belief in him.  

BTW: has there been a discussion on why Harry has these dreams?  I 
know the majority of it ties in with his scar, but there are other 
instances as well IIRC.  
I hesitate to mention this, as I don't want everyone to start 
throwing things at me, but I read Richard Abanes' book (my curiosity 
got the better of me) and he waffled on about JKR's love of 
divination was manifest by the fact that her main protagonist is 
a "True Seer" or something.  I wondered about this, and came to the 
conclusion that Harry only seems to dream things as they are 
happening, not before.  The only example of divination I could think 
of is when he predicts Buckbeak's escape, against all the odds.  
This, however, can probably be put down to pigheadedness and 
deliberately saying the opposite of what Professor Trelawney wants to 
hear.

Catherine




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Tue May  8 15:41:07 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:41:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Psychologists say HP is wonderful!
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F35@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <3AF81392.C6F9BBC5@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 18366

Hello Everyone!!!

"Tandy, Heidi" wrote:

>
> Putting aside the whole "magic" issue for a moment, how is a seventeen year
> old crime solver who pretty much does what she wants a better person for a
> troubled child to model herself on than Harry is?
>
> ----------

I was talking to my friend Lee about this. She says that perhaps they are encouraging ND because it features a strong female character, likewise with the Hardy Boys. Now, from what I remember about ND, she wasn't really that strong, and just
kind of "accidentially discovered" things.

Aparently, people I know believe that there are no strong characters in Harry Potter. My friend Lee thinks otherwise, and reads HP to her two year old for bedtime. I feel that HP is like The Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew all rolled into one, with
a little magic thrown in for good measure. It has lots of strong characters; everyone has their own strengths.

Just MHO...

Hugs to all, and much happiness

Jamieson (AKA J-Man the Wonder Boy)


"Westley and I are joined by the bonds of love,
and you cannot track it, not with a thousand
blood houds. And you cannot break it, not with a
thousand swords. And when I say you are a
coward, it is only because you are the slimiest
 weakling ever to crawl the earth!" - Buttercup
from 'The Princess Bride'

"There is a shortage of very perfect breasts in this world.
It would be a pity to damage yours." -
Wesley in The Princess Bride





From margdean at erols.com  Tue May  8 15:20:23 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:20:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary - POA Chapters 3 and 4
References: <20010508133206.29275.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AF80EB7.C14F2472@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18367

Amber wrote:
> 
> --- Jim Flanagan <jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:QUESTIONS
> > 1.  Was it a coincidence that the wand gesture that Harry made while
> > looking for the big dog was exactly what was needed to call the
> > Knight Bus?  Could the whole thing have been orchestrated by the MoM,
 > > or was this just a convenient Deus ex Machina for the
author?
> 
> I've always found that part a big dodgy. I mean, you just have to stick
> out your wand hand in a particular manner? Very vague, you'd think that
> the Knight Bus would get TONS of accident summons'. 

I suspect that you also have to be standing right next to a road,
as Harry was.  IIRC it's not mentioned in the text, but it makes
sense.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 00:29:50 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:29:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narrative Perspectives was: Snape and polyjuice
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010507135230.00d96950@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010508002950.6753.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18368


> The other problem I have with the "Snape-as-Harry" idea is that
> I'm doubtful of Snape's ability to do an unskewed impersonation.
> 

It wouldn't have to be a 24/7 sort of thing.  Just filling in when
necessary to through others off the trail.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From joym999 at aol.com  Tue May  8 16:32:46 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:32:46 -0000
Subject: Summary - POA Chapters 3 and 4
In-Reply-To: <9d8m4v+q6a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d973e+o0p3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18369

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" <jamesf at a...> wrote:

> 1.  Was it a coincidence that the wand gesture that Harry made 
while 
> looking for the big dog was exactly what was needed to call the 
> Knight Bus?  Could the whole thing have been orchestrated by the 
MoM, 
> or was this just a convenient Deus ex Machina for the author?
> 3.  Did Fudge know that Harry was on his way to Diagon Alley on the 
> Knight Bus?  If so, how?  If not, why was he there waiting on the 
> curb?

Both of these questions can be answered by this theory:  Several 
hp4gu members have speculated that maybe Magnolia Crescent, which is 
where Harry is when he calls the Knight Bus, is the same street where 
Mrs. Figg lives.  If the theory that Mrs. Figg is a witch who is 
watching over him is true, this makes sense; there is some spell on 
Harry so that if he runs away from home, he heads towards Mrs. Figg.  
Maybe Mrs. Figg sees him coming and calls the Knight Bus to pick him 
up, then immediately sends an owl (or activates one of the other 
convenient Harry-watching devices obviously installed years ago) to 
Fudge.


> 5.  Was Hermione's attitude about Crookshanks realistic and 
> consistent with her other attitudes and actions?  Why does she 
> minimize Ron's feelings about the danger the Crookshanks poses to 
> Scabbers?  Could she be under some kind of spell that caused her to 
> buy the cat?
> 
I think Hagrid already answered this: "People can be a bit stupid 
about their pets"


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue May  8 16:36:48 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:36:48 -0000
Subject: Psychologists say HP is wonderful!
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F35@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9d97b0+uji3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18370

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:

Did you notice that by far most of them had read the books? Here's a 
quote:

    "Almost everyone in the audience of about 100 psychiatrists,
     psychiatry students and their spouses said they'd read at least
     one of the Potter books. Three-quarters had read all four."

That is so cool.

> connecticut doctor said he has worked with some children who've 
became
> obsessed with Harry Potter and take the books as proof that they 
don't have
> to obey adults. 
> Methinks that said children may be predisposed to such things and 
if HP
> wasn't around, they would've used Bart Simpson or something 
instead. The
> same doctor said the girl was much improved now that she's reading 
Nancy
> Drew. 

Notice also that he said he'd only read a few bits of the books and 
that he had learned a lot from the conference. I got the impression 
from the CNN article that he was open to changing his mind. 



> Putting aside the whole "magic" issue for a moment, how is a 
seventeen year
> old crime solver who pretty much does what she wants a better 
person for a
> troubled child to model herself on than Harry is?

Yeah, how about we go back to the classics of American literature as 
examples for our kids. After all, Things Were Better Back Then.

Characters like, oh, Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. Yeah, there's a couple 
of great role models for you. I read Tom Sawyer aloud to 5th graders 
and believe me, they all want to be Tom. Seriously! It sounds like he 
has the best time... You know: stealing, lying, fighting, breaking 
every rule, running away from home, sneaking around graveyards at 
midnight with a dead cat to perform an incantation that will cure 
warts, smoking a corncob pipe, thoughtlessly breaking a little girl's 
heart, things like that. Ton's first sentence to the new boy in town 
is "I can lick you." 

Makes Harry look like a saint.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
created and edited by a bona fide librarian
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue May  8 16:37:28 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:37:28 -0000
Subject: Psychologists say HP is wonderful!
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F35@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9d97c8+15tp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18371

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> An article at
> http://www.salon.com/books/wire/2001/05/08/potter_shrinks/index.html
> discusses how good the books are for children.
> At the American Psychiatric Association's four-day annual meeting, 
there was
> a symposium about the books where the consensus was that it was 
useful for
> child psychologists to connect with their younger patients - 
however, one
> connecticut doctor said he has worked with some children who've 
became
> obsessed with Harry Potter and take the books as proof that they 
don't have
> to obey adults. 
> Methinks that said children may be predisposed to such things and if 
HP
> wasn't around, they would've used Bart Simpson or something instead. 
The
> same doctor said the girl was much improved now that she's reading 
Nancy
> Drew. 
> 
> um.
> 
> um.
> 
> Now I have to admit that I haven't read any nancy drew books since I 
was
> about 11, although a college classmate of mine has written a few of 
them,
> but am I right when I say that (a) Nancy is about 17, not 11 thru 
14, and
> (b) Nancy, similarly to Harry, does all her sleuthing without the 
presence
> or assistance of adults, and frequently nearly gets killed or 
captured by
> Bad People?


I read the Salon article an find it really interesting. The 
psychiatrist who deals primarily with adult patients believed that 
Harry encouraged children to disobey adults, based upon his few 
experiences with child patients. Whereas the child psychiatrists saw 
Harry as good role-model. The adult psychiatrist sees Harry's actions 
from a different patient perspective, since adult psychiatrists 
usually deal with the results of childhood traumas/influences, 
sometimes a good 20-40 years worth of childhood-based 
influences/traumas (long-term affects). OTOH, the child psychiatrists 
don't have that perspective, because they don't see that additive 
result 20+ years of childhood traumas/influences (relatively 
short-term affects). Two different clinical perspectives resulting in 
two different observations and conclusions. That's very interesting. 

> Putting aside the whole "magic" issue for a moment, how is a 
seventeen year
> old crime solver who pretty much does what she wants a better person 
for a
> troubled child to model herself on than Harry is?

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I have worked with the mentally ill 
adults and troubled children and adolescents. A catch word in 
psychoanalysis is "insight". Basically, until a troubled person can 
gain the "insight" to realize/accept his behavior is wrong/harmful 
(like if a kid is violent...hits people whenever he becomes angry), 
that person won't think what he's doing is wrong and 
modifying/eliminating that behavior will be very difficult. It's 
the job (supposedly) of the mental health professional to help 
that person to gain that insight and correct that behavior. 

Kids aren't stupid and they can reason that since Harry has a crummy 
family (the Dursleys) he doesn't have to obey any adult or authority 
figure and as long as everything turns out okay in the end, Harry 
won't get into any trouble. That's not really gaining insight into 
their problems, but more of making an excuse for it. Gaining insight 
would be that much of Harry's adventures could be averted if he were 
to actually trust adults enough to confide in them and to believe what 
they tell him because not all adults are like the Dursleys. From my 
understanding, that particular psychiatrist saw children not gaining 
insight from Harry, but using Harry as an excuse to justify their own 
actions. That could be quite alarming to a parent or to a therapist. 
That's why I think parents have the obligation to discuss the books 
(any book for that matter) with their children, so that the child can 
identify Harry's mistakes and possibly avoid them.

I never read Nancy Drew, so I can't really comment if Nancy had a 
problem with trusting authority figures (parents, police, etc.).

:-)Milz 




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue May  8 16:47:07 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:47:07 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - discrediting Harry - Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <9d92nb+75oh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d97ub+5827@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18372

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > But now I'm getting intrigued: why =did= JKR need someone to be 
> > carrying info out of the school, Skeeter-style

Also, the reports out of Hogwarts tip Sirius off to developments. He 
says that he learns a lot by reading between the lines of Rita's 
articles. The "good guys" are gathering together in response to the 
signs and hints in those articles too.


> divination was manifest by the fact that her main protagonist is 
> a "True Seer" or something.  I wondered about this, and came to the 
> conclusion that Harry only seems to dream things as they are 
> happening, not before.  

Harry's dreams fall into two categories. He has clairvoyant dreams, 
when he sees things that are happening far away. His dream of Frank's 
death is an example of that. He also has prescient dreams, where he 
sees the future. These tend to come directly out of images and 
feelings of the present, such as his dream shortly after arriving at 
Hogwarts for the first time when he saw Quirrel's turban speaking to 
him. 

I think that JKR intends for Harry to be a Seer, and that he's 
discovering it slowly and gradually. His comments about the 
hippogriff in his divination exam were throw away phrases, sure, but 
I think they indicate that he does possess some ability to see the 
future but doesn't recognize it as such. He sees more than he 
realizes that he sees, in other words. He forgets his dreams; he 
looks so hard at the crystal that he doesn't recognize the things 
that he does see for what they are. 

By the way, there is a page about Harry's dreams on the Lexicon, if 
anyone's interested. It's not done yet, but it's interesting anyway.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 16:50:51 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:50:51 -0000
Subject: Draco
In-Reply-To: <9d6e0n+fe1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d985b+qdv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18373


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> If it is our choices that make us what we are, then shouldn't Draco
> get a choice at some point? Or is he just there to be hauled by
> Lucius Malfoy, who is evil, to Voldemort's side, then held down to
> get the Dark Mark, then trapped in the Evil!Universe forever? 

Well, I think I'll put on my Devil's Advocate hat for a moment; who's 
to say that he hasn't made his choice already? And we just haven't 
seen it? Granted, he is young, too young to know the full impact of 
his decision. But he may; we have absolutely no idea of how much 
Lucius has revealed to young Mr. Malfoy. I think there's an 
assumption that Lucius wouldn't reveal everything because of Draco's 
age, but who knows?

> In terms of redeemable things he's done...<snip> 
> 1. He ran screaming from voldemort-drinking-dead-unicorn-blood in 
> PS/SS

Okay, that happened in the first book. Say young Draco knew *some* of 
what being in leige with Voldemort meant but not all. So, he goes 
home during summer and asks to know all. Lucius explains everything 
and Draco goes "Oh, wow, I think I'll be evil" (I'm simplying things 
a lot for space). It may be farfetched, but it's possible...

> 2. Part-kneazle Crookshanks doesn't react badly to him ever on the 
> train rides, even when Scabbers isn't around and he's not 
> distracted by that little rat

I don't know how good an indication this is. Has Crookshanks ever 
reacted badly to any *humans*?

> 3. He doesn't hit hermione, or even report her for fighting, even 
> though he has no problem tattling in other circumstances

As for reporting her for fighting, he's embarassed that a girl hit 
him. Doesn't want it floating around the school. As for not hitting 
Hermione, he's too surprised by what she's done? I mean, hitting 
another person is a bit out of character for Hermione... 

> 4. Do you really think that in the fight in the begining of 4th
> year, right before he becomes a ferrett, he missed harry by
> accident? 

Well, this is open to personal interpretation.

I personally don't know what to think about Draco. Part of me says 
he's a miserable little git who's been pushed around by his father 
and can't help being being who he is because of his upbringing. The 
other part of me says that Draco makes his own choices while in 
school and if he wanted to change he could. There certainly are 
positive role models in the castle. I'll be very interested to see 
what happens in the next three books, although I have a hard time 
seeing Draco swinging over to Dumbledore's crowd.

~Amber





From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Tue May  8 08:55:03 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen Dei)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:55:03 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion or Snape the "Bat"
References: <9d23d7+rk0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c0d7df$bb540b20$e37474d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 18374

Hello!  I am new and quite fascinated with this list, even if it is costing me some sleep to read the multitudinous posts.

About the idea of Snape and Polyjuice.  The many theories present are intriguing, yet as many point out, run into some large wizarding "tech" snares.  My sister and I have another take on this: Snape is an unregistered animagus...he turns into a bat.  Hints of this seem to be sprinkled throughout the books: in Book I, the last chapter, Quirrell contemptuously refers to Snape hovering around like an over-large bat.  And there are two other places in the other books (I cannot look up the references right now for exactness) where JKR describes him as sweeping out of the room like a bat.  She loves dropping hints.  It would easily explain his ability to spy, especially if the Death Eaters are addicted to such places as graveyards for meeting places.  Anyway, it is another theory to chew on while we wait.

Lumen Dei
Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop
www.geocities.com\lumen_dei

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 1:46 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape brewing Polyjuice Potion (was: Snape the spy)


  There are a few problems with Snape as polyjuiced Crouch jr:
  1. Time Constraint.  Whatever he was sent to do by Dumbledore, it was 
  agreed prior to The Dementor's Kiss.  Dumbledore didn't find out 
  about Crouch until the Hospital wing scene.
  2. Too huge a risk.  Polyjuice only lasts for an hour.  (umm, I need 
  a drink, Master...)
  3. Crouch used this to impersonate Moody.  JKR is more inventive than 
  this.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wings909 at aol.com  Tue May  8 17:06:28 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 13:06:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry as Prefect
Message-ID: <ad.a909141.28298194@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18375

In a message dated Tue, 8 May 2001 11:27:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Tim Kronsell <timkronsell2 at ofir.dk> writes:

<< 
And while Now I dont see Ron as School prefect, Neville have 
to be completely out of the question, and we havent really heard anything 
about the exploits of Seamus and Dean. That leaves us with Harry.>>


I think Ron has a better chance of getting Prefect than Harry.  Aren't prefects chosen by the faculty based on grades and behaviour?  If that's so then Harry's got a bit of a problem with the behaviour issue.  I can still hear Snape's "Potter's been crossing lines ever since he first got here" so with Snape dead set against Harry, that's a pretty big problem.  And Harry and Ron have broken quite a few rules during their stay at Hogwarts, even Dumbledore and McGonagall have to admit that : ) But, Ron doesn't get as much attention as Harry, so that could work in his favour for being chosen for Prefect. 

Plus, I'd personally *love* to have Ron as a Prefect : )

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Tue May  8 17:39:51 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:39:51 -0000
Subject: Summary - POA Chapters 3 and 4
In-Reply-To: <9d8m4v+q6a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9b17+1kra@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18376

> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Was it a coincidence that the wand gesture that Harry made 
while 
> looking for the big dog was exactly what was needed to call the 
> Knight Bus?  Could the whole thing have been orchestrated by the 
MoM, 
> or was this just a convenient Deus ex Machina for the author?
> 
According to my Muggle Studies classes, British Muggles can catch 
buses by standing at a 'bus stop' and putting their wand arm out in 
the road (while keeping it attached to their shoulder - unlike the 
Headless Hunt, they can't safely detach body parts) in front of an 
approaching bus.  If the driver is feeling generous, he may then 
stop - or he may pretend not to have seen, and drive on.

I think when Harry tripped over his trunk he put his wand arm (and 
wand) out, thus summoning the Knight Bus, which, as you can tell from 
its onward journey, is always approaching all places at once.  This 
was after he did the Lumos spell.

To catch the KB, therefore:
1) wait till night
2) stand by a road
3) hold out wand
4) await developments

> 2.  Is there any significance to the name "Knight Bus?" [In the 
> French edition, it is the Magicobus.]
> 
> 3.  Did Fudge know that Harry was on his way to Diagon Alley on the 
> Knight Bus?  If so, how?  If not, why was he there waiting on the 
> curb?

Perhaps not.  Diagon Alley seems to be the wizarding world equivalent 
of Picadilly Circus.  See 6 below.

> 4.  Is Crookshanks an animagus or otherwise magical? If not, why 
did 
> he go after Scabbers in particular?
 
> 5.  Was Hermione's attitude about Crookshanks realistic and 
> consistent with her other attitudes and actions?  Why does she 
> minimize Ron's feelings about the danger the Crookshanks poses to 
> Scabbers?  Could she be under some kind of spell that caused her to 
> buy the cat?

Isn't this an indication that her feelings for Ron are more complex 
than at first sight appears to be the case?

> 6.  Why were the Ministry so concerned about Harry's safety?  After 
> all, he is *only* a celebrity, "the boy who lived." Are they mainly 
> worried about PR implications of losing Harry, or could there be 
> something more profound about Harry that we don't know yet, such as 
a 
> prophesy about him?

We now know from the pensieve scenes and the 'Parting of the Ways' 
that the wizarding community and Fudge in particular are deeply 
insecure about Voldemort, as well as other magical beings and 
muggles.  Fudge represents business-as-usual in the post-Voldemort 
era.  Sirius Black's escape is a big shock to this - if a Death Eater 
can escape the Dementors it stops half the WC sleeping peacefully in 
their beds.  The only clue about Sirius' intentions is 'He's at 
Hogwarts', which Fudge takes to mean he's after Harry.  To recapture 
Sirius, therefore, Fudge needs follow Harry.  This, as much as 
concern for his safety, is IMO what motivates him.  If Harry has 
disappeared, Fudge needs to watch the most likely places he might 
turn up.  Dumbledore (and the Dementors) can be expected to have 
Hogwarts covered, so DA is as good a place as any.

> 7.  Are the adults being overprotective of Harry? [Ebony, if you 
are 
> reading this: what do real 13-year-olds think about this question?]

The Weasleys' reactions seem very realistic.  The MOM in general are 
thinking of themselves as well as Harry.

> Bonus: What are Stan's and Ern's accents?  My uneducated guesses 
are 
> EE and West Country, respectively. [Discuss on OT-Chatter, please.]

David




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue May  8 17:49:27 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:49:27 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest
Message-ID: <9d9bj7+kio5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18377

It is not to late to enter this weeks contest.  Just submit your 
entry to this weeks Trivia Contest by midnight tonight (EST, that 
is).  Actually, if you send it to me by whenever I drag myself out of 
bed tomorrow morning you can enter.

--Joywitchs CONTEST ALTER EGO, who can be reached at HP4GU at aol.com




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 17:53:16 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:53:16 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - POV
In-Reply-To: <9d8mvb+sgk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9bqc+s6bk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18378

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> To be precise, that scene is third-person 
> whateveryoucallitwhenthenarratorisn'tinANYONE'Shead (however I 
search, 
> I can't find a term for this POV).  We see things Harry can't see, 
> which distinguishes it from the vast majority of the narration 
> (third-person limited to Harry), but we don't get anyone else's POV. 
 
> We only know of Ron and Hermione what we'd know if we were sitting 
> next to them in the stands.
> 
> The first part of the first chapter of PS/SS and the first chapter 
of 
> GF are the only ones where third-person limited is used but is 
limited 
> to the POV of a character besides Harry:  Vernon and Frank, 
> respectively.  After Vernon goes to bed in PS/SS 1, the narration is 
> as at the first Quidditch match--third person, showing us things 
Harry 
> can't see yet not letting us into the thoughts of Dumbledore, 
> McGonagall, or Hagrid.
> 
> Amy Z
> League of Obsessed Nitpickers
> 
The term that you were searching for is the "omniscient narrator".

Haggridd
New inductee into L.O.O.N (from about a couple of weeks ago)




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue May  8 18:16:23 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:16:23 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F42@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18379

Amber wrote:

> Well, I think I'll put on my Devil's Advocate hat for a moment; who's 
> to say that he hasn't made his choice already? And we just haven't 
> seen it? Granted, he is young, too young to know the full impact of 
> his decision. But he may; we have absolutely no idea of how much 
> Lucius has revealed to young Mr. Malfoy. 
It is possible, but there's textual inferences that even if he *knows* a
lot, he's not participating - Clearly, in 2nd year, lucius told him to stay
out of it, or so he tells Harry & Ron, as Crabbe & Goyle, AND right before
4th year he wasn't participating either - if he had made a choice for the
Dark Side, and had been allowed to participate, then he would've been out on
the field with the "former" Death Eaters at the Quidditch World Cup, not in
the woods - that is the *one* scene that makes me think that he certainly
"knows" that Muggle-borns are "subwizards", and even might know his father
(parents?) supported Voldemort, but hasn't seen the activities they do *at
present* as anything other than game-playing*.
Of course, he could just be really short, and Lucius was afraid he'd get
stepped on...


* note: even the death eaters didn't let the muggles drop - they *could
have* avada-ed them, or picked them right up and then released the
levitation spell immediately, before the good guys could rescue them, if
their real intent was to kill the muggles then & there (this does NOT mean
they weren't doing something bad - it just means that the mob's intent was
to harm but not to kill (although I can't see them being very upset if
someone had been killed))



> > 2. Part-kneazle Crookshanks doesn't react badly to him ever on the 
> > train rides, even when Scabbers isn't around and he's not 
> > distracted by that little rat
> 
> I don't know how good an indication this is. Has Crookshanks ever 
> reacted badly to any *humans*?
Sort of. He reacted badly to Peter in human form in the shrieking shack...

> 
> > 3. He doesn't hit hermione, or even report her for fighting, even 
> > though he has no problem tattling in other circumstances
> 
> As for reporting her for fighting, he's embarassed that a girl hit 
> him. Doesn't want it floating around the school. As for not hitting 
> Hermione, he's too surprised by what she's done? I mean, hitting 
> another person is a bit out of character for Hermione... 
I don't know, a not-uncommon reaction to being hit is to hit back - I don't
want to read *too* much into this, because it comes too close to the old
mafia mythology - they do hits, they smuggle, they swindle - but they don't
hit women...like that's enough to keep them from being horrid?

> 
> > 4. Do you really think that in the fight in the begining of 4th
> > year, right before he becomes a ferrett, he missed harry by
> > accident? 
> 
> Well, this is open to personal interpretation.
Exactly - it's an ambiguous thing - if she chose to do so, she could explain
this either way.  


> I personally don't know what to think about Draco. Part of me says 
> he's a miserable little git who's been pushed around by his father 
> and can't help being being who he is because of his upbringing. The 
> other part of me says that Draco makes his own choices while in 
> school and if he wanted to change he could. There certainly are 
> positive role models in the castle. I'll be very interested to see 
> what happens in the next three books, although I have a hard time 
> seeing Draco swinging over to Dumbledore's crowd.
Ah! now we get to the real reason I wanted to respond to this post - because
we've gone over many of these things onlist before, but one subtopic hasn't
really come up, so I offer this question:

If Draco decided not to become a Death Eater, would there be any option for
him, other than acting in a manner that supports Dumbledore's crowd, even if
he doesn't want to?

My answer: Yes, there is - and that would be living completely outside
Wizarding society, and to some extent outside "ordinary" muggle society too,
because from what we've seen of Lucius, he doesn't seem the type to brook
dissent from within his home - witness his treatment of still-enslaved-Dobby
(yes, I know he doesn't do anything like go after dobby afterwards, but that
might be because wizards are no match for house-elf magic...). Lucius just
does not seem like the sort of parent who would say, "Ok! You've looked at
the pro and con arguments, you've made a nice little chart showing the
reasons for and against becoming evil and accepting the Dark Mark and the
Dark Lord as your Master, and you've decided against it. Fine, son! Here's
your allowance, and I'd like the key to the cellar under my drawing room
back, but you still have run of the house. Try not to report my movements
and activities to anyone, ok?"

uh. huh.



From wr7238 at msn.com  Tue May  8 18:40:42 2001
From: wr7238 at msn.com (Roy Mallett)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:40:42 -0400
Subject: Rits Skeeter Questions and answers
Message-ID: <OE75U9T3TGJ2TUSzbAU00019bd2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18380

Question one.
What's with Rita's teeth?How do you suppose she lost them?
Well one creative way is she interviewed Gilderoy Lockhart. Twisted everything around and probably had a brighter smile than he did. He gets worked up over the article and puts a total hex on her mouth, Rottenus Teethus! My boys thought that one up!

Question two.
Do you believe that Rita lies intentionally? Or is there something else behind the words?
To make her articles so dramatic,oh yeah ,she lies! My boys think she is so high on herself that she needs constant attention from everybody.

Question three.
What do you believe are Rita's strongest character traits?
She is very straightforward in her approaching a person for an interview, and gets right in their face! She is not afraid to go the mile to get her story.

Question four.
What are her worst character traits?
Lying, rudness, no compassion for any living being, and doesn't know how to show any kindness towards anybody.

Question five.
Do you believe that there is actually a nice person underneath all the deceit?
Where? Everything we have read about this woman shows us that there is nothing decent about her!

Question six.
Why do you suppose sadness and anything tragic attracts Rita? Something else behind this?
She lives to expose these types of stories. The more sadder or tragic she can make it, she probably would go to the outer limits to do it!  She thrives on that stuff!

Question seven.
What drives Rita to report the stories she does? Or bother reporting it?
She's an addict for those types of stories. To get her daily dose of everything sad, tragic, or make people look like total idiots or losers, gives her a big jolt in her ego!

Question eight.
Do you think that Rita is lonely, or just vengeful?
>From what we have read about her, she has no love life or love interest, except her stories, or friends to brag about anything to. So she could be lonely. But how she get any friends if she goes after people and just about ruins their life? Nobody would want her as a friend if she tears apart a person who does something good!

Question nine.
What family upbringing would Rita have had?Would she have been poor?
With her taste in clothes and colors, she could have been deprived as a child. She could have been an only child and only had her wild imagination for her to get by day after day. Or a middle child that had to share everything with her sisters or brothers or both, and just didn't want to. So her meaness streak kicks in and lashes out at them all!

Question ten.
If you would compare Rita Skeeter to an animal, what would it be? Why?
This question is the best one of them all!  I asked my boys this question and they came up with some good ones!
James thought of her as a blood sucking Mosquito! He would love to smack her one and send her onto her next life form!
William thought of her as a disease spreading tick and would love to exterminate her in to her next life form!
I picture her as a PREYING MANTIS, not praying, but eating up the competion! We had so much fun with this question that we must have come up with all kinds of bad insects to fit her rotten personality.

Jamieson, this was fun!!!!!

From,
The Mallett Witch, Wanda and her future wizards, William and James


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 18:54:10 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 18:54:10 -0000
Subject: Snape's love
In-Reply-To: <9d6srr+bv2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9fci+2sdm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18381

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bellemichellem at y... wrote:>

 I absolutely agree- you cannot draw any conclusions as to whether 
> Snape will fall in love (or has been in love) from that interview. 
It 
> could totally be that he'll never love (although I hope not!) I 
heard 
> the interview at one time (a radio interview), and the way she 
> sounded convinced me that she isn't necessarily going the way of a 
> love relationship for him, past or future.  


I have to believe there WAS a love relationship, or there IS a love 
relationship, or there WILL BE a love relationship involving Snape.  
The question centered on *love*.  How shallow and boring of a 
character Snape would be if we didn't learn something along the line 
of *Snape was deeply in love*.  Nah, there's something about this guy 
that is going to surprise us.  He is not just some meanie with a bad 
attitude.  There's a reason he is as he is and IMHO it involves love 
in some way.

Koinonia







From wr7238 at msn.com  Tue May  8 18:58:08 2001
From: wr7238 at msn.com (Roy Mallett)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:58:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP4GU Contest
Message-ID: <OE124TDi0qmvcMU1Icg000187eb@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18382

Where do I find the questions for the Trivia contest?
Just me, Wanda thev Witch
Thank you



----- Original Message -----
From: joym999 at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:56 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP4GU Contest


It is not to late to enter this weeks contest.  Just submit your  
entry to this weeks Trivia Contest by midnight tonight (EST, that  
is).  Actually, if you send it to me by whenever I drag myself out of  
bed tomorrow morning you can enter.

--Joywitchs CONTEST ALTER EGO, who can be reached at HP4GU at aol.com


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 19:11:08 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 19:11:08 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - discrediting Harry - Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <9d97ub+5827@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9gcc+hucm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18383

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

> Harry's dreams fall into two categories. He has clairvoyant dreams, 
> when he sees things that are happening far away. His dream of 
Frank's 
> death is an example of that. He also has prescient dreams, where he 
> sees the future. These tend to come directly out of images and 
> feelings of the present, such as his dream shortly after arriving 
at 
> Hogwarts for the first time when he saw Quirrel's turban speaking 
to 
> him. 
> 
> I think that JKR intends for Harry to be a Seer, and that he's 
> discovering it slowly and gradually. His comments about the 
> hippogriff in his divination exam were throw away phrases, sure, 
but 
> I think they indicate that he does possess some ability to see the 
> future but doesn't recognize it as such. He sees more than he 
> realizes that he sees, in other words. He forgets his dreams; he 
> looks so hard at the crystal that he doesn't recognize the things 
> that he does see for what they are. 
> 
> By the way, there is a page about Harry's dreams on the Lexicon, if 
> anyone's interested. It's not done yet, but it's interesting anyway.
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon

catherine wrote:

BTW: has there been a discussion on why Harry has these dreams?

.....but I read Richard Abanes' book....


Steve, I wish you would put what is on your page here.  I am glad 
Catherine brought this whole thing up.  I do believe there is more to 
Harry's dreams then we have taken note of.  There is one dream Harry 
has in particular that interests me.  Richard Abanes mentioned 
something in one of his posts about the subjects Hermione takes and I 
believe it had something to do with telling the future or something 
like that.  I will try and go back later and find what he wrote.  
Maybe Hermione has stumbled across something concerning Harry. Maybe 
she has figured out that he might be a Seer.  

(I personally am going to buy Richard Abanes book.  I have no problem 
with the guy) 

Koinonia   




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 19:19:26 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 19:19:26 -0000
Subject: Snape Returned to LV?
In-Reply-To: <3AF74BB5.95C61F7@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9d9gru+nc1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18384

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
If Snape
> *did* return to Voldemort (which I personally believe), I think he 
did
> it right after he left the hospital wing.


I am still remaing firmly on the fence.  If Snape did go back to 
Voldemort, I hope we are told what happened at that meeting.  I can 
just picture all those DE's still hanging around, Voldemort not being 
in the best of moods, and in pops Snape.  Personally, I think V. 
would be happy to have a former DE back, especially one that works at 
Hogwarts. Not to mention an expert in potions.  I do have to wonder 
what Snape would have to do in order to prove to V. that he is still 
truly on V's side.  I don't think Voldemort would just take Snape at 
his word.

Koinonia  


 




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon May  7 22:30:24 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 22:30:24 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RITA SKEETER--CHARACTER SKETCH
Message-ID: <LAW2-F81o3Nz9cLxedS000045df@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18385

Jamieson Wolf posted:
<snip very funny interview with Rita>
oops, snipped question one - will have a look at it later.

>2) Do you believe that Rita lies intentionally? Or is there something
>else behind the words?

I don't think Rita does lie, particularly.  She has her slant on things, and 
is sometimes inaccurate for the sake of journalistic "colour", e.g. saying 
Harry was top of his class, or describing Hermione as "stunningly pretty".  
She would probably regard her imaginary Harry-Hermione romance as "colour" 
as well.  In other words, she's a typical journalist - just after a good 
story, but basing it on facts.

>3) What do you believe are Ritas strongest character traits?
>4) What are her worst character traits?
See answers to question 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9

>5) Do you believe that there is actually a nice person underneath all
>the deceit?

I don't know about "nice", but I do kinda like her.  She's gutsy, 
independent, a career-woman who's not easily intimidated.  She holds her own 
with Dumbledore and Bagman.  If the wizarding equivalent of Fleet Street is 
anything like the Muggle one, she will have encountered a lot of male 
chauvinism, and will have had to have courage and determination to survive, 
along with an eye for the main chance.

>6) Why do you suppose sadness and anything tragic attracts Rita? We can
>assume that its what sells the stories; but is there
>something else behind that?

I think that's pretty much it - she knows what sells, but she's not 
sentimental herself.  Much of the fun is in the contrast between her gloppy 
prose style and her crocodile-skin personality.

>7) What drives Rita to report the stories she does? This can be related
>to question six, but think about it.  Question six was:
>Why does the tragic attract her? And Question seven is: Why does she
>bother reporting it?

I thinks she likes being a reporter because she likes to be "in" on stuff 
other people don't know, and she feels powerful, able to manipulate the 
world, when she sees her stories in print.  It's not just tragedy - she 
likes a bit of "tangled love lives", scares (half-giant teaching your kids!) 
and Ministerial incompetence as well.  I think she likes to see herself as 
the Quick-Quotes Quill describes her - "attractive blonde Rita Skeeter, 
forty-three, whose savage quill has punctured many inflated reputations".  
She has a point - the Ministry *is* pretty incompetent.  But she is not a 
good listener, and misses the real story by going for paper-selling cliches. 
  Perhaps no surprise, as she's a bit of a cliche herself - but no less fun 
for that.

>8) Do you think that Rita is lonely, or just vengeful?
Neither - just a hard-bitten hack who loves her job.  She does put the boot 
in on Hermione - I think she likes the idea of the power of the press, and 
that she's not someone to mess with.  Hermione failed to be impressed, so 
she gets the treatment - OK, maybe a little vengeful, but I imagine she 
wouldn't let a grudge stand in the way of a good story.  And her vengeance 
wasn't really so terrible, as Hermione demonstrated.  She's not as powerful 
as she thinks she is - again, ably demonstrated by Hermione.

>9) What family upbringing would Rita have had? She seems to be very
>crass and loud. Would she have been poor? (again, no
>facts to back it up. So, put yourself in her place.)

Well, she seems to want to be noticed, with all those bright colours, so 
maybe she got lost in a Weasley-like crowd as a kid.  She's a hard worker, 
so probably didn't have an easy ride in life.  She wants to be seen as a 
powerful person, so probably felt particularly powerless in her youth.  
Perhaps her Dad was a journalist and she was always seeking his approval and 
attention.

>10) If you would compare Rita Skeeter to an animal, any one you chose,
>what would it be?  Why?(This ones a fun one. I
>couldnt think of a tenth question; so sue me. Oh, and the answer can >be 
>anything but a beetle. Again, be creative.)

Well, strictly speaking it's not a beetle (or is it?), but I would say a 
gad-fly.  She has a vicious bite, but livens things up a bit, and is no 
respecter of persons.

I have a question 10: we know Rita will be back, but will she go with the 
pro- or anti- Dumbledore factions that seem to be developing?  I have my 
views, but I'd like to hear what others think.


>~~~~ Thats it folks! Ive never done something like this before, so
>please, be gentle! ( or not <g>) ::Jamieson runs and hides in a pile of
>blankets, hoping to look like the boogyman::

You can come out now <bg>! "insightful and funny" Morag Traynor  "I've read 
worse - hell, I've written worse" Rita Skeeter, Daily Prophet.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May  8 19:36:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 19:36:59 -0000
Subject: POV
In-Reply-To: <9d9bqc+s6bk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9hsr+g2ff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18386

Haggridd wrote:
> > 
> The term that you were searching for is the "omniscient narrator".

No, I mean the opposite: a third-person narrator who doesn't know 
what's inside anyone's head--who narrates as a video camera would.

Omniscient third-person:

  Hermione had never seen Ron look so adorable. "Why don't I just give 
you your own copy of "Hogwarts, A History" and you'll know all this 
stuff for yourself?" she said.
  "Oh, cut it out, Hermione," Ron said, wondering why he was sniping 
when what he really wanted to do was grab Hermione right then and 
there and give her a kiss she'd never forget.
  It was obvious to Harry that they were in love.

Whatever-the-term-is third-person:

  Hermione sighed. "Why don't I just give you your own copy of 
"Hogwarts, A History" and you'll know all this stuff for yourself?" 
she said.
  "Oh, cut it out, Hermione," Ron said, irritably.
  Harry rolled his eyes.

Amy Z





From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May  8 19:46:37 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 19:46:37 -0000
Subject: Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <9d97ub+5827@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9iet+tl6k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18387

Steve wrote:
"I think that JKR intends for Harry to be a Seer, and that he's 
discovering it slowly and gradually. His comments about the 
hippogriff in his divination exam were throw away phrases, sure, but 
I think they indicate that he does possess some ability to see the 
future but doesn't recognize it as such. He sees more than he 
realizes that he sees, in other words. He forgets his dreams; he 
looks so hard at the crystal that he doesn't recognize the things 
that he does see for what they are. "

*cough* *cough*
--I'm sick today, couldn't go to school, and very upset about it. (ha 
ha all we're doing is revising for exams...sigh). Anyways-

Steve's post has put this into my head and I've got to share and see 
what everyone else thinks...

If Harry is a seer and not Ron, as some have proposed, then is it 
possible that Harry's "special-ness" comes from that ablility? 
Instead of it being prophesised that Harry will defeat Voldemort 
could it be that he, and he alone, will be able to know HOW to defeat 
V? Maybe it was prophesised that Harry would be able to tell who 
could defeat Voldemort or something similar? 

Harry might not be directly important in the ultimate defeat of V, 
but that defeat might be impossible without him. Does this make 
sense? This really opens up a plethora of possiblities, and even 
though there's not much canonical evidence for it...well what do you 
think?

Scott
*cough* *cough*




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May  8 19:51:39 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 19:51:39 -0000
Subject: Harry as Prefect
In-Reply-To: <ad.a909141.28298194@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9d9iob+59o2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18388

Hello! For no real reason, I think that Dean will be a prefect. I 
have no evidence whatsoever to back it up, it's just an impression I 
get. 
Hermione will almost certainly be a prefect. I don't think either 
Harry or Ron will be, Harry because of the attention it would draw 
and all the people who would say: "He's only a prefect because he's 
Harry Potter" and Ron...I can't think of a reason why he couldn't be 
prefect. Actually, I think he might be quite a good prefect, I just 
can't see JKR making him one. Again no canon evidence just one 
of my little feelings :)
Back to French revision I go :(
Sarah


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated Tue, 8 May 2001 11:27:18 AM Eastern Daylight 
Time, Tim Kronsell <timkronsell2 at o...> writes:
> 
> << 
> And while Now I dont see Ron as School prefect, Neville have 
> to be completely out of the question, and we havent really heard 
anything 
> about the exploits of Seamus and Dean. That leaves us with Harry.>>
> 
> 
> I think Ron has a better chance of getting Prefect than Harry.  
Aren't prefects chosen by the faculty based on grades and behaviour?  
If that's so then Harry's got a bit of a problem with the behaviour 
issue.  I can still hear Snape's "Potter's been crossing lines ever 
since he first got here" so with Snape dead set against Harry, that's 
a pretty big problem.  And Harry and Ron have broken quite a few 
rules during their stay at Hogwarts, even Dumbledore and McGonagall 
have to admit that : ) But, Ron doesn't get as much attention as 
Harry, so that could work in his favour for being chosen for Prefect. 
> 
> Plus, I'd personally *love* to have Ron as a Prefect : )
> 
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May  8 19:54:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 19:54:44 -0000
Subject: Knight Bus (was POA Chapters 3 and 4)
In-Reply-To: <20010508133206.29275.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9d9iu5+svr8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18389

Jim wrote:
> 
> > 2.  Is there any significance to the name "Knight Bus?" [In the 
> > French edition, it is the Magicobus.]

Amber wrote:

> <grin> I've wondered about this as well. When I first read PoA, I
> didn't "read" it. I heard it on tape originally. And I thought that
> Knight Bus was spelled "Night" Bus. Imagine my surprise when I read the
> book and found out it was spelled "Knight". Well, obviously there has
> to be some reason for this, JKR wouldn't just throw a "k" on the front
> of night just for the heck of it. 

I also listened before I read, so that I heard it as "Night Bus."  
Same with "Knockturn Alley," which I thought would be spelled 
"Nocturne Alley."  Maybe she put the K onto night for the same reason 
that she spelled nocturne Knockturn--so that the double meaning 
wouldn't be apparent unless you spoke it aloud.  "Knight" also has the 
medieval feel of so many things in the wizarding world (torches to 
light Hogwarts, quills to write with, etc.).  (What a Knockturn or a 
Diagon is, I don't know.)

Does the Knight Bus only run at night?  That idea got planted in my 
head when I thought it was Night Bus and has never gotten uprooted.

Amy Z





From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May  8 20:06:41 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:06:41 -0000
Subject: Draco
In-Reply-To: <9d985b+qdv2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9jkh+uts2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18390

Amber wrote:
Well, I think I'll put on my Devil's Advocate hat for a moment; who's 
to say that he hasn't made his choice already? And we just haven't 
seen it? Granted, he is young, too young to know the full impact of 
his decision. But he may; we have absolutely no idea of how much 
Lucius has revealed to young Mr. Malfoy. I think there's an 
assumption that Lucius wouldn't reveal everything because of Draco's 
age, but who knows?"

--Possibly. We don't know how much Lucius has told Draco, but we do 
know that the Malfoys are close enough to Voldemort to have a trove 
of his old school things. (ie. the diary) Then again Draco didn't 
know who had opened the chamber in CoS. Not just that Ginny had 
opened it, but that Riddle's diary was being used. I can understand 
Lucius' reasons for not making Draco privy to this information 
(making sure he didn't tell anyone), but it's all we have to go on 

Heidi wrote:
"2. Part-kneazle Crookshanks doesn't react badly to him ever on the 
train rides, even when Scabbers isn't around and he's not 
distracted by that little rat"

Amber responded:
"I don't know how good an indication this is. Has Crookshanks ever 
reacted badly to any *humans*?"

--Well Peter was a human even though in rat form. I know what you 
mean though. FB just says that a Keazle "...has the uncanny ability 
to detect any unsavoury or suspicious characters...". I'd say that 
includeds Humans. Draco's certainly rather "unsavoury", but...

Amber wrote:
"I personally don't know what to think about Draco. Part of me says 
he's a miserable little git who's been pushed around by his father 
and can't help being being who he is because of his upbringing. The 
other part of me says that Draco makes his own choices while in 
school and if he wanted to change he could. There certainly are 
positive role models in the castle. I'll be very interested to see 
what happens in the next three books, although I have a hard time 
seeing Draco swinging over to Dumbledore's crowd."

--Your two views are also the ones that most people take. I want to 
believe the former, I want to Draco to become good. I wouldn't be 
suprised if he did with the right characterisation, but I also 
wouldn't be suprised if he didn't given his character. Argh! When it 
comes down to it I don't know what to think of him either, but I have 
found myself liking him more and more lately. (cough *fanfic* cough)

Scott





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May  8 20:12:42 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:12:42 -0000
Subject: Snape's love
In-Reply-To: <9d9fci+2sdm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9jvq+5dt8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18391

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bellemichellem at y... wrote:>
> 
>  I absolutely agree- you cannot draw any conclusions as to whether 
> > Snape will fall in love (or has been in love) from that 
interview. 
> It 
> > could totally be that he'll never love (although I hope not!) I 
> heard 
> > the interview at one time (a radio interview), and the way she 
> > sounded convinced me that she isn't necessarily going the way of 
a 
> > love relationship for him, past or future.  
> 
> 
> I have to believe there WAS a love relationship, or there IS a love 
> relationship, or there WILL BE a love relationship involving 
Snape.  
> The question centered on *love*.  How shallow and boring of a 
> character Snape would be if we didn't learn something along the 
line 
> of *Snape was deeply in love*.  Nah, there's something about this 
guy 
> that is going to surprise us.  He is not just some meanie with a 
bad 
> attitude.  There's a reason he is as he is and IMHO it involves 
love 
> in some way.
> 
> Koinonia

I think you are right in that there is something about Snape - and 
that he is going to surprise us.  However, I am not sure, although I 
agree that it is likely, that it is wholly to do with some kind of 
love interest which has gone wrong etc.  I think that the way he is 
stems from some time earlier than this.  

I have been intrigued by the reports of Snape as a student.  Turning 
up at Hogwarts knowing more curses/hexes/dark arts than any 6th year 
students I find particularly interesting.  Where did he learn this 
from?  Who are his parents?  What kind of background does he come 
from?  The Marauders make him out to be a very unpopular character, 
so in this he differs from Draco, who is at least popular with his 
own housemates.   This may be the Marauders' POV.  I tend to think of 
him as similar, and much less pleasant as the Hermione we first 
encounter - the rigid adherence to rules, a know-it-all etc.  I get 
the feeling that he tried very hard to be teachers' pet, but that 
even the majority of the teachers found him repellent.  Perhaps one 
of the reasons he puts Hermione down, besides her house and 
friendship with Harry, is because he was treated in a similar way 
when at school.

Oh dear, I've lost the thread a bit here.  There are many things 
which fascinate me about Snape, and a few of them have got jumbled 
up.  

Catherine




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 20:18:17 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:18:17 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - POV & Interim Report IV: Dale v. Fry Taste Test
In-Reply-To: <9d9bqc+s6bk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9ka9+6h3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18392

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > 
> > To be precise, that scene is third-person 
> > whateveryoucallitwhenthenarratorisn'tinANYONE'Shead (however I 
> search, 
> > I can't find a term for this POV).  We see things Harry can't 
see, 
> > which distinguishes it from the vast majority of the narration 
> > (third-person limited to Harry), but we don't get anyone else's 
POV. 
>  
> > We only know of Ron and Hermione what we'd know if we were 
sitting 
> > next to them in the stands.
> > 
> > The first part of the first chapter of PS/SS and the first 
chapter 
> of 
> > GF are the only ones where third-person limited is used but is 
> limited 
> > to the POV of a character besides Harry:  Vernon and Frank, 
> > respectively.  After Vernon goes to bed in PS/SS 1, the narration 
is 
> > as at the first Quidditch match--third person, showing us things 
> Harry 
> > can't see yet not letting us into the thoughts of Dumbledore, 
> > McGonagall, or Hagrid.
> > 
> > Amy Z
> > League of Obsessed Nitpickers
> > 
> The term that you were searching for, Amy, is the "omniscient 
narrator".  It has also been referred to as "omniscient author".

In the lastest of my reports on my observations on hearing Fry after 
hearing Dale, I feel strongly about the following:

The centaurs are a tossup for me, with the edge going to Dale, but 
only marginally.

Fry's Ginny is simply dreadful.   It hurts my ears to hear it.  
Dale's Ginny is not anything spectacular, but his interpretation is 
not literally painful to listen to.  

The same might be said of Fry's Dobby. Dale's Dobby is quite good, in 
my opinion.  I wonder how Fry will treat Winky in GoF.  I think that 
Dale does a superb job with his Winky.  If Fry's Winky is anyhting 
like his Dobby, I will be very disappointed.

I like Dale's Lucius Malfoy better than Fry's.  Dale's evocation of 
James Mason in his Lucius evokes in me visions of decadent luxury and 
a hint of evil. 

T.T.F.N.
> Haggridd
> New inductee into L.O.O.N (from about a couple of weeks ago)




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 20:21:59 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:21:59 -0000
Subject: POV
In-Reply-To: <9d9hsr+g2ff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9kh7+n8ov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18393

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Haggridd wrote:
> > > 
> > The term that you were searching for is the "omniscient narrator".
> 
> No, I mean the opposite: a third-person narrator who doesn't know 
> what's inside anyone's head--who narrates as a video camera would.
> 
> Omniscient third-person:
> 
>   Hermione had never seen Ron look so adorable. "Why don't I just 
give 
> you your own copy of "Hogwarts, A History" and you'll know all this 
> stuff for yourself?" she said.
>   "Oh, cut it out, Hermione," Ron said, wondering why he was 
sniping 
> when what he really wanted to do was grab Hermione right then and 
> there and give her a kiss she'd never forget.
>   It was obvious to Harry that they were in love.
> 
> Whatever-the-term-is third-person:
> 
>   Hermione sighed. "Why don't I just give you your own copy of 
> "Hogwarts, A History" and you'll know all this stuff for yourself?" 
> she said.
>   "Oh, cut it out, Hermione," Ron said, irritably.
>   Harry rolled his eyes.
> 
> Amy Z

Oh, sorry for misinterpreting your question.  I don't know of any 
technical literary term for this POV offhand, other than standard 
third person narrative.  How about "woefully ignorant narrator?"

Haggridd




From devika261 at aol.com  Tue May  8 20:36:26 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:36:26 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry as Prefect
Message-ID: <103.2f67be3.2829b2ca@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18394

Do you know for sure that there has to be both a boy and a girl prefect from each house?  Sorry if this is a silly question, but I wasn't really sure how that worked, and in the previous books I only remember hearing about one prefect from each house (e.g. Percy from Gryffindor, Penelope Clearwater from Ravenclaw, and Cedric from Hufflepuff).
:) Devika



From joym999 at aol.com  Tue May  8 20:58:20 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:58:20 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest
In-Reply-To: <OE124TDi0qmvcMU1Icg000187eb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d9mlc+ugfk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18395

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Roy Mallett" <wr7238 at m...> wrote:
> Where do I find the questions for the Trivia contest?

That would be message #18141.  One of these days I will also put 
everything in a folder in the files section, too.

--Joywitch




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue May  8 20:59:30 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:59:30 -0000
Subject: Summary - POA Chapters 3 and 4
In-Reply-To: <9d8m4v+q6a9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9d9mni+dtc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18396

Very nice and detailed summary, Jim!
> 
> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Was it a coincidence that the wand gesture that Harry made while 
> looking for the big dog was exactly what was needed to call the 
> Knight Bus?  Could the whole thing have been orchestrated by the 
MoM, 
> or was this just a convenient Deus ex Machina for the author?

Very few things are coincidences in the Wizarding World, and that is 
becoming more apparent.  If the MoM knows within minutes that magic 
had been performed at the Dursley house in CoS, then they could just 
as quickly, I imagine, figure out that Harry had run away.  I'm sure 
(now) that they had a hand in sending the Knight Bus to him.
> 
> 2.  Is there any significance to the name "Knight Bus?" [In the 
> French edition, it is the Magicobus.]

I also thought it was a reference to medieval knights, who were 
valiant fighters and protectors.
> 
> 
> 5.  Was Hermione's attitude about Crookshanks realistic and 
> consistent with her other attitudes and actions?  Why does she 
> minimize Ron's feelings about the danger the Crookshanks poses to 
> Scabbers?  Could she be under some kind of spell that caused her to 
> buy the cat?

I suppose we are all selfish at times, especially when we really want 
things to work out for ourselves.  This is Hermione's time to be 
selfish.  Someone also mentioned that Hermione is always helping 
"those in need" (at least those she perceives as being in need), and 
Crookshanks has been sitting forever alone on the shelf in the pet 
store.  I'd want to keep him, too.  She truly felt that Crookshanks 
needed a home more than Ron needed to worry about Scabbers.
> 
> 6.  Why were the Ministry so concerned about Harry's safety?  After 
> all, he is *only* a celebrity, "the boy who lived." Are they mainly 
> worried about PR implications of losing Harry, or could there be 
> something more profound about Harry that we don't know yet, such as 
a prophesy about him?

Being "the boy who lived" is obviously a very big deal.  I think the 
MoM is of course concerned about losing face if they lose Harry, but 
he is one who needs to be protected.  He's not your average wizard; 
he's special.
> 
> 7.  Are the adults being overprotective of Harry? [Ebony, if you are 
> reading this: what do real 13-year-olds think about this question?]

Adults should protect kids.  If only our society protected abused kids 
as well as Harry is protected in his society!  Sirius Black is 
considered about as dangerous a person can get - Harry should be 
watched like a hawk!
> 
--jenny from ravenclaw***************************




From devika261 at aol.com  Tue May  8 21:07:35 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:07:35 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Returned to LV?
Message-ID: <dc.5ff3889.2829ba17@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18397

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
 If Snape
 > *did* return to Voldemort (which I personally believe), I think he 
 did
 > it right after he left the hospital wing.


 >I am still remaing firmly on the fence.  If Snape did >go back to 
 >Voldemort, I hope we are told what happened at that >meeting.  I can 
>just picture all those DE's still hanging around, >Voldemort not being 
 >in the best of moods, and in pops Snape.  Personally, >I think V. 
 >would be happy to have a former DE back, especially >one that works at 
 >Hogwarts. Not to mention an expert in potions.  I do >have to wonder 
 >what Snape would have to do in order to prove to V. >that he is still 
 >truly on V's side.  I don't think Voldemort would just >take Snape at 
 >his word.

I think that Snape's going back to Voldemort sounds plausible, but I'm still not entirely convinced.  When Voldemort was talking to all of the DEs, he mentioned 3 in particular, one who was too cowardly to return, one who had left him forever, and one who was his most faithful servant.  We can assume that his most faithful servant was Barty Crouch Jr/Moody.  For the other two, it seems reasonable to say that the one who was too cowardly to return was Karkaroff and the one who was gone forever was Snape, but it's impossible to be sure.  If, however, this assumption is correct, it would have taken a great deal of persuasion on Snape's part to convince Voldemort that he was truly on his side because Voldemort did say that the Death Eater who was gone forever would be killed.  The fact that Snape did return from his mission (he was at the leaving feast at the end of GoF) shows that he may have been sucessful in rejoining the Death Eaters, if in fact that was what his mission was. !
 
Snape seems clever enough to be able to convince the Death Eaters that he was on their side, and he would have been able to explain his initial absence by saying that it is impossible to Disapparate from Hogwarts, so he could not have joined them immediately when the Dark Mark burned on his arm.  I really can't come up with any other explanation for what Dumbledore wanted Snape to do, but that's not to say that there isn't another explanation.
On a slightly related note, I was wondering if anyone had thought of this:  what do you think Snape's relationship to the Malfoys (especially Lucius Malfoy) is?  Remember his reaction when Harry named Malfoy as a death eater in the hospital wing?  I really have no idea what the connection could be, but I think there is one...
:) Devika  





From devika261 at aol.com  Tue May  8 21:13:14 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:13:14 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's love
Message-ID: <4a.156edbec.2829bb6a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18398

I have been intrigued by the reports of Snape as a student.  Turning 
 up at Hogwarts knowing more curses/hexes/dark arts than any 6th year 
 students I find particularly interesting.  Where did he learn this 
 from?  Who are his parents?  What kind of background does he come 
 from?  The Marauders make him out to be a very unpopular character, 
 so in this he differs from Draco, who is at least popular with his 
 own housemates.   This may be the Marauders' POV.  I tend to think of 
 him as similar, and much less pleasant as the Hermione we first 
 encounter - the rigid adherence to rules, a know-it-all etc.  I get 
 the feeling that he tried very hard to be teachers' pet, but that 
 even the majority of the teachers found him repellent.  Perhaps one 
 of the reasons he puts Hermione down, besides her house and 
 friendship with Harry, is because he was treated in a similar way 
 when at school.

I think that's a really good observation.  For some reason, I have a hunch that this might perhaps tie in with Snape's connection to the Malfoys?  You never know.
:) Devika



From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Tue May  8 21:25:11 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 23:25:11 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry as Prefect
Message-ID: <20010508201443.21B4912D86@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18399

James and Lily was Head Boy and Girl in their 7 year.

I am basing my idea on that.

Darreder

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com =====
>Do you know for sure that there has to be both a boy and a girl prefect from 
each house?  Sorry if this is a silly question, but I wasn't really sure how 
that worked, and in the previous books I only remember hearing about one 
prefect from each
>house (e.g. Percy from Gryffindor, Penelope Clearwater from Ravenclaw, and 
Cedric from Hufflepuff).
>:) Devika
>
>
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>
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From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue May  8 21:28:48 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:28:48 -0000
Subject: RITA SKEETER--CHARACTER SKETCH
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F81o3Nz9cLxedS000045df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d9oeg+ufv8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18400

I enjoyed the interview - very Rita Skeeter-ish.
> 
> I have a question 10: we know Rita will be back, but will she go 
with the 
> pro- or anti- Dumbledore factions that seem to be developing?  I 
have my 
> views, but I'd like to hear what others think.
> 
Oooh - good question!  I've been wondering about that too.  Unlike 
Lockhart, who I did not like at all, and who seems to have already 
served his purpose, I think there's more to Rita Skeeter than what we 
know now.  JKR left it open-ended when Hermione mentioned that Skeeter 
promised to keep her quill to herself for a year.  Will she be back in 
book 6 (after a year)?

I can't decide if Skeeter will be back with a vengeance and become 
even more of a nuisance to the troika, or if she might somehow become 
a helper to them.  I don't see her getting involved in the fight 
against Voldie, though.  She's too selfish to follow anyone, either 
way.

I didn't really answer your question, Morag.  Sorry for musing and 
rambling!

--jenny from ravenclaw************************************




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Tue May  8 22:14:00 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 8 May 2001 22:14:00 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <989360040.16612.27554.hg@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18401


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /London Meeting/londonmeeting.jpg 
  Uploaded by : aichambaye at yahoo.com 
  Description : The long-awaited London meeting picture! From the left: Michelle, Neil (Flying Ford Anglia), Dai, Heather M., and Simon 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/London%20Meeting/londonmeeting.jpg 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

aichambaye at yahoo.com
 







From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May  8 22:58:57 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 22:58:57 -0000
Subject: The Daily Prophet and RITA SKEETER
In-Reply-To: <3AF62601.C55405DB@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9d9tnh+51n8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18402

Incredibly funny summary Jameison. I enjoyed it!

Letter to the Editor-

c/o Rita Skeeter,
Daily Prophet
Diagon Alley, London


Questions:

2) Do you believe that Rita lies intentionally? Or is there something
else behind the words?

--Rita wants the juiciest story possible. She doesn't ever LIE to get 
it. She just stretches the truth a bit!

3) What do you believe are Rita's strongest character traits?

--Maybe not journalistic integrity, but certainly her determination 
to getting the scoop, no matter too what length she must go.

4) What are her worst character traits?

--Let's see? Obnoxiousness, rudeness, disturbing the peace, twisting 
the truth, breaking the law, tresspassing, pettiness, deceitfulness, 
abuse of power,  and slander. Need I go on?

5) Do you believe that there is actually a nice person underneath all
the deceit?

--Yes. Perhaps I just have to much faith in human nature, but yes I 
think that somewhere she is a good person, she is petty but not evil.
 
6) Why do you suppose sadness and anything tragic attracts Rita? We 
can assume that it's what sells the stories; but is there
something else behind that?

--Yes we can assume it sells her stories. The only other good reason 
I can come up with is that it well, erm...sells her stories.

Thanks again for a wonderful paper!

Sincerely,
Scottus Insanus
Thickly Padded Cell
St. Mungo's

--The Rita sketch gave me a few other thoughts and a question about 
journalism in the WW.

Is the Daily Prophet the only paper for British Wizards? I find it 
hard to believe that they have abosolutely no competition unless the 
British Wizard population is really small. I know most cities don't 
have but one or two major papers, but an entire country?

Secondly this is the "Daily Prophet" and not the "Magical Quidnunc".
It suprises me that what seems a reputable news organisation allows 
articles like Rita's to be printed. Wouldn't, shouldn't people 
realise that Rita's stuff is baloney and just not read it? 

I found it rather hard to believe that Mrs. Weasley so completely 
believed the article about Hermione. No wonder Hermione got all that 
horrible mail when someone who knows her well like Mrs. Weasley 
bought it immediately.

Do most people not realise how low Rita is? Or are they just REALLY 
gullible?

Scott
 




From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 23:25:48 2001
From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 23:25:48 -0000
Subject: Look of Triumph -- Crookshanks -- Snape's "mission" -- dementing Crouch Jr.
Message-ID: <9d9v9s+dcbe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18403

     Just some random ramblings I thought I'd throw out and see what 
other people are thinking on the subjects:

     1. Dumbledore's look of triumph: Could it be, when he rushes to 
look at Harry's arm, that he's checking for a Dark Mark? And not 
seeing one, momentarily feels triumphant? Let's face it: How many 
people (wizard or muggle) could stand up to and resist Voldemort? So 
seeing that Harry does not carry the Dark Mark means to Dumbledore 
that Voldemort was not able to force or sway Harry over.

     2. I was sure then Hermione came out of the shop with 
Crookshanks that Crookshanks was going to play a key villain role, 
possibly even be an Animagus. I'm still waiting for Crookshanks to 
play a key role (though not necessarily a villainous one) in the 
future.

     3. Snape's "mission" seems to elicit fear in him ("He looked 
slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered 
strangely.") And, of course, if he were afraid, he'd NEVER admit in 
front of those witnesses. Unless another emotion is causing him to 
become pale -- but would fear cause his cold, black eyes to glitter 
strangely? That doesn't seem like a "fear" reaction. That's almost 
like he's looking forward to what he has been asked to do. Hmmm . . . 
the strange dichotomy of Severus Snape.
     And speaking of Severus -- the name just seems to go together 
with Sirius. Severus and Sirius . . . every time I hear it reminds me 
of the names Romulus and Remus. Of course, that's even yet another 
tangent (Remus).

     4. The thing that disturbs me more than anything else I've read 
in these 4 books: Fudge not only allowed, but INSTIGATED the 
Dementor's Kiss on Crouch Jr. <i>before Fudge can interrogate 
Barty.</i> So any story that Dumbledore/Snape/Harry/Sirius tell can 
no longer be verified. It looks to me (probably because I've ready 
WAY too many true crime books) that Fudge wanted to silence Barty 
before he could say anything else -- anything that might incriminate 
Fudge, perhaps? With the Dementor's Kiss, Fudge has literally 
destroyed the evidence, and the stories that AD/SS/HP/SB tell are 
hearsay and unable to be corroborated.
     I've been suspicious of him ever since that night he was waiting 
as Harry got off the Knight Bus. Fudge blows off the incident with 
Harry's "aunt" (technically, being Vernon's sis, she's not blood) and 
is "suddenly looking awkward" when Harry calls him on it. Nope, don't 
trust him a bit. Not a'tall. Or Bagman either, but that's a topic for 
another time.

Belle






From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May  8 23:38:38 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:38:38 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks - Snape, Snape, Snape
Message-ID: <6e.a656b62.2829dd7e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18404

oh get real,
Snape gay??? Yeah right- if any thing he is just avoiding WOMEN.. he is not 
gay or a homo just 'cause' he is a jerk. he also could not have been freinds 
with malfoy because Lucius went to school with Aurther who was in a older 
than than James, Sirus, etc. If Snape is not a DE why does he like draco so 
much? Part of the Spy act maybe...to get Lucius to trust him, and pass the 
trust to Voldie?
Thoughts all, Joe  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May  8 23:41:32 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:41:32 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pride/ambition in the spying game (Snape again)
Message-ID: <a0.13ffd6df.2829de2c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18405

In a message dated 4/21/01 9:35:00 AM Central Daylight Time, 
bludger_witch at yahoo.com writes:


> But he's also a Slytherin at heart. Ambition -  someone brought up the lost
> Order of Merlin, and I think that he wasn't too upset about it, he just was
> upset to see that a murderer got away without punishment - is often linked
> to public recognition. That's the kind of pride and ambition the Malfoy's
> have, that even Ron has. Snape's ambition is to do things the right way and
> be successfull at it. He probably is bitter about not getting the praise he
> deserves, but it is not his main concern.
> 
> Ron and the dark side common links?? Hmm any ideas or opinions?

> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May  8 23:44:26 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:44:26 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Lucius Malfoy
Message-ID: <d9.14204129.2829deda@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18406

In a message dated 4/21/01 10:05:47 AM Central Daylight Time, 
bludger_witch at yahoo.com writes:


> I though about that - and isn't it a miracle that Harry managed to escape at
> the end? He doesn't really notice what's going on behind him, he just shoots
> random curses over his back. It is highly unlikely that they hit many DE
> since they weren't aimed at all. So - had he help from the inside? Snape?
> Things were progressing so fast that if he was there he didn't really have a
> chance to step in earlier, maybe was waiting for the right moment. What if
> Voldemort risen to full power might be easier to kill/destroy than in the
> half human
> state he was in before? Returned power = returned humanity?
> 
> He said he had his old power back...so would he just turn back into a 
> shadow if deafeated??? To weak already??? JKR is getting above my head. 
> Your thoughts?
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com  Tue May  8 23:53:54 2001
From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 23:53:54 -0000
Subject: Similar, but divergent characters (was Snape's love)
In-Reply-To: <9d9jvq+5dt8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9da0ui+am1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18407

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:

(snip)

> I have been intrigued by the reports of Snape as a student.  
Turning 
> up at Hogwarts knowing more curses/hexes/dark arts than any 6th 
year 
> students I find particularly interesting.  Where did he learn this 
> from?  Who are his parents?  What kind of background does he come 
> from?  The Marauders make him out to be a very unpopular character, 
> so in this he differs from Draco, who is at least popular with his 
> own housemates.   This may be the Marauders' POV.  I tend to think 
of 
> him as similar, and much less pleasant as the Hermione we first 
> encounter - the rigid adherence to rules, a know-it-all etc.  I get 
> the feeling that he tried very hard to be teachers' pet, but that 
> even the majority of the teachers found him repellent.  Perhaps one 
> of the reasons he puts Hermione down, besides her house and 
> friendship with Harry, is because he was treated in a similar way 
> when at school.

About Snape being similar to Hermione: it appears to me that Harry, 
Ron, and Hermione all have similar "mirror" characters on the "other 
side", if you will: Harry's obvious mirror being Tom Marvolo Riddle, 
down to appearance and some of the family background (both orphans, 
both from Muggle families from recently in the family tree). Harry, 
unlike Tom, didn't resent his background and so far has been able to 
overcome any supposed disadvantages from it. 

The mirrors for the other two are a bit less obvious, but just as 
interesting. Hermione's mirror is Snape; at the beginning, she was 
outcast from the rest of Hogwarts to the point of going to cry in the 
toilet on Halloween. As Catherine said, both Snape and Hermione are 
rules nuts. As for where Snape's and Hermione's paths diverged: 
Hermione picked up great guys like Ron and Harry for friends soon in 
her school career. Snape got in with a bunch of future Death Eaters. 
The text isn't clear on how this group of 'friends' got along, and 
whether or not Snape was best buddies with the bunch or just was on 
the periphery of their circle. 

Ron's mirror is Draco. Both are from established wizarding 
families; both tend to feud with each other both with words and wands 
in much the same way. However, the main divergence is the amount of 
money each family has, and the boys' reactions to it.

Meril




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May  8 23:53:07 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:53:07 EDT
Subject: Lurkers+Newbies
Message-ID: <ff.5f86eec.2829e0e3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18408

To Lurkers and Newbies 
I had a bit of trouble with forwarding (with an added bit of my own) at 
first, making it very hard for everyone else to pick up what I was reffering 
to so here is how you put in text you wish to refer to in your own mail

1 highlight desired part
2 click left mouse button
3 select copy
4 click reply
5 when the box opens, there will be the stuff you requested
*Aol only
If every one adds tips of your own it will be helpful
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From litalex at yahoo.com  Tue May  8 23:58:21 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:58:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks - Snape, Snape, Snape
In-Reply-To: <6e.a656b62.2829dd7e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010508235821.38541.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18409

Hello,

I'm sorry I'm jumping in the middle of the
conversation like this again, and I apologize if I
misinterpret anyone's words.

--- browneyes1420 at aol.com wrote:
> oh get real,
> Snape gay??? Yeah right- if any thing he is just
> avoiding WOMEN.. he is not 
> gay or a homo just 'cause' he is a jerk. he also

Excuse me, unless you're a card-carrying member of the
lgbt community, please refrain from using words like
"homo."  I find such usage rather offensive.

Also, avoidance of women seems a point toward the
arguement that Snape might be gay instead of against
it, I'd think; although it is true that most gay men I
know rather like hanging out with women.  I doubt
anyone is suggesting that being a jerk equals being
gay either, or at least I hope not.

One last note, a spellchecker might help you present
your ideas a little better.

little Alex

__________________________________________________
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http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May  8 23:59:27 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 23:59:27 -0000
Subject: Harry as Prefect
In-Reply-To: <20010508201443.21B4912D86@postfix2.ofir.com>
Message-ID: <9da18v+jo36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18410

Tim Kronsell wrote:
"James and Lily was Head Boy and Girl in their 7 year.
I am basing my idea on that."

--But Head Boy and Girl is very different than prefect because there 
are only two in the whole school, whereas there are two prefects per 
house (a boy and girl), or is it two prefects per years 5,6, and 7 
per house? Argh! I can't remember.

Anyway I really hope that Harry doesn't become  a prefect in book 
five. Even though Ron probably doesn't expect to become prefect he 
would still become really jealous. Ron wouldn't be the only one upset 
either, because I would. I mean EVERYTHING happens to Harry, why 
should he be a prefect, too?

Besides we know Harry's grades are ok if not outstanding, but he's 
ALWAYS breaking the rules. The only plausible argument I've heard for 
Harry the prefect is that it might be an attempt to make him more, 
uh, law-abiding. 

Hermione OTOH will almost obviously be prefect. I'd like to see what 
would happen if Lavender or Parvati got it instead. That would be 
interesting. ;-)

As for boys, maybe Neville. He's really good in Herbology and and it 
would certainly boost his self-confidence. 

And what about Draco?

Scott








From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Wed May  9 00:00:56 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 20:00:56 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Lucius Malfoy
Message-ID: <98.146f8ae7.2829e2b8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18411


The relationship between Snape and 
> Lucius Malfoy.

> In the "parting of the ways" chapter, Harry tells Fudge the names 
of 
> the DE who were present at Voldemort?s rebirth to make him believe 
it 
> really happened, and when he names Lucius Malfoy,
> 
> "Snape made a sudden movement. But as Harry looked at him, his eyes 
> flew back to Fudge." (paraphrase).
> 
> That?s another fantastic hint giving wings to our thoughts, isn?t 
it?

I for one do believe there is a relationship between Snape and Lucius 
Malfoy.? I have believed that since PoS.? I don't believe Snape cares 
for Lucius at all.? Just a hunch.? There is more to the way Snape 
treats Draco also.? I'm just not sure what it is.

Surely that sudden movement Snape made is a hint.? JKR says GoF is a 
very, very, very important book and it's pivotal. It's almost the 
heart of the series.? I love The Parting of the Ways. I can't believe 
JKR put this *sudden movement* in this chapter if it didn't mean 
anything.

Koinonia

*Fudge stood up for all the DE's Harry mentioned in GoF.. Thoughts?
Joe
P.S. i am sorry i write so little lately but i'm juggling 900some e-mails and 
am strugling on keeping up


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 00:00:45 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia de Lobo)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:00:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 860
References: <989344491.3973.68791.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <01cf01c0d81b$1902bba0$9e21c280@resnet.tamu.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18412

Well, I just took my Child lit's final. (I was supposed to take it
yesterday, but that's a whole nother kettle of Flobberworms.) Lucky me, a
lot focused on Harry Potter. I believe I'll get an A in the class.

^_^

--Neth

**Draco dormiens nunquan titillandus.**


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed May  9 00:06:07 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 00:06:07 -0000
Subject: Look of Triumph -- Crookshanks -- Snape's "mission" -- dementing Crouch Jr.
In-Reply-To: <9d9v9s+dcbe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9da1lf+ho52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18413

Belle wrote:

> Just some random ramblings I thought I'd throw out and see what  
> other people are thinking on the subjects:
> 
> 2. I was sure then Hermione came out of the shop with 
> Crookshanks that Crookshanks was going to play a key villain role, 
> possibly even be an Animagus. I'm still waiting for Crookshanks to 
> play a key role (though not necessarily a villainous one) in the 
> future.



Well we now know that Crookshanks is part Kneazle<sp> from a JKR 
interview.(I don't remember where I saw it) I think in the future he 
will pay a role in flushing out a spy or tratior.



> 4. <snip> Fudge, perhaps? With the Dementor's Kiss, Fudge has 
> literally destroyed the evidence, and the stories that AD/SS/HP/SB 
> tell are hearsay and unable to be corroborated. I've been 
> suspicious of him ever since that night he was waiting as Harry got 
> off the Knight Bus. Fudge blows off the incident with Harry's "aunt
>(technically, being Vernon's sis, she's not blood) and is "suddenly 
> looking awkward" when Harry calls him on it. Nope, don't trust him 
> a bit. Not a'tall. Or Bagman either, but that's a topic for another 
> time.


I too think Fudge is hiding something. I think he might even be a 
Voldemort supporter which would explain the Dementor's kiss of Crouch 
Jr. he doesn't want to be revealed. Crouch Jr. might have "cut a 
deal" so to speak giving Fudge away. What better position to be in 
for Volemort's return than the to be MoM. Fudge can work to discredit 
anyone who claims Voldy has returned no matter who that person is, 
i.e. Harry, Dumbledore, et. al.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Cheers,
      Kristin




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Wed May  9 00:06:49 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 20:06:49 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
Message-ID: <9.15011ae8.2829e419@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18414

In a message dated 4/21/01 1:24:21 PM Central Daylight Time, 
kris403 at yahoo.com writes:


> I'm a lurker.  I hardly have enough time to read all the posts....  hate to 
> comment on something that has already been said, but this one I had to 
> comment.   I am a teacher.  Granted, I have only been teaching two years, 
> but I look at Snape's attitude from a different perspecive.  
> 
> 1.  Yes, Snape does lose his temper a few times, but lets look at the 
> circumstances.  Harry (along with his friends) do tend to get into a lot of 
> trouble.  Going to Hogsmeade without permission, going into the forbidden 
> forest, just roaming around the school at night.  They are breaking school 
> rules.  More often than not, they don't receive punishment.  In fact the 
> Headmaster has saved them a couple times.  As a teacher who in theory was 
> trying to be fair and consistent in discipline (I'm not saying he is), this 
> would push me to my limit.  Also Snape has been fairly sure that Harry has 
> been responsible for events, such as Sirius's escape, and he can't prove 
> it, and is basicaly told he is crazy.  
> 
> 2.  As for playing favorites in his classroom, maybe his is just trying to 
> show how real life is.  I am constantly frustrated with students who have 
> no real value for life and death.  They look at movies about war (Saving 
> Private Ryan) and think it is fake.  One girl in my class actually laughed. 
>  Maybe wizard children are struggling with the same values.  Snape lived 
> through Voldemort's reign of terror and he sees students who are fascinated 
> with the "Boy who Lived", but have no thought of all the other 
> consequences.  How many people died trying to stop him, how many people are 
> now the same as Neville's parents?  Countless wizards fought and yet Harry 
> receives all the glory.  Maybe  Snape is just  trying to help his students 
> see outside the world of Harry.
> 
> 3.  Let's look long term.  Hypothetically, Snape may have figured that 
> Voldie wouldn't be dead forever.  Since he was a death eater he would know 
> about all the experiments Voldie was doing to become immortal.  Maybe he 
> knew he would have to take up the fight again and so he decided to stay in 
> character.  If he had to become a spy again how credible would he be if he 
> had befriended Harry, or was even fair to him?  On the outside he is evil, 
> but I think Harry is going to respect him as he sees how Voldemort will 
> pick his plans up where he left off.  
> 
> just my opinions
> Kris
> 

I loved your post it made me think of snape in a whole new light!!
You should give up being a lurker, you make a great orator 
Joe
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Wed May  9 00:15:23 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 20:15:23 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Snape, Snape
References: <6e.a656b62.2829dd7e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c0d81d$255d5a20$dae7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 18415

Am I missing something?  Is there canon evidence that the Weasleys and Lucius Malfoy went to school together?
I imagine Malfoy being older than Snape and the Marauders, but I don't remember any information in canon that places him specifically on the Hogwarts alumni timeline.  but then I could be missing something.

ender
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: browneyes1420 at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 7:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks - Snape, Snape, Snape


  oh get real,
  Snape gay??? 
  <snip>
  he also could not have been freinds 
  with malfoy because Lucius went to school with Aurther who was in a older 
  than than James, Sirus, etc. 
  <snip>
  , Joe  


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 03:01:05 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 20:01:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Plot hole - discrediting Harry - Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <9d97ub+5827@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010509030105.30911.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18416

--- Steve Vander Ark <vderark at bccs.org> wrote:
> Harry's dreams fall into two categories. He has
> clairvoyant dreams, 
> when he sees things that are happening far away. His
> dream of Frank's 
> death is an example of that. He also has prescient
> dreams, where he 
> sees the future. These tend to come directly out of
> images and 
> feelings of the present, such as his dream shortly
> after arriving at 
> Hogwarts for the first time when he saw Quirrel's
> turban speaking to 
> him. 

Hmm.  Interesting point.  I've never seen it that way.
 His dreams of things happening far away have always
been, to my recollection, of things that Voldemort is
doing at the time. (ie, kiling Frank)  I always
thought that it was the same "connection" to Voldie
through the scar that transmitted those particularly
murderous scenes to Harry via dreams.

The dream Harry had about Quirrel's turban, though, I
had interpreted as Voldemort purposely contacting
Harry, trying to turn him without a direct
confrontation.  I hadn't thought about it as Harry
being a possible Seer...are there any other
"prescient" dreams of Harry's you can name?


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 03:04:47 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 03:04:47 -0000
Subject: Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <9d9iet+tl6k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dac4f+c202@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18417

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:

> *cough* *cough*
> --I'm sick today, couldn't go to school, and very upset about it.

Yes, I noticed  ;-)


> Harry might not be directly important in the ultimate defeat of V, 
> but that defeat might be impossible without him. Does this make 
> sense? This really opens up a plethora of possiblities, and even 
> though there's not much canonical evidence for it...well what do 
you 
> think?
> 
> Scott
> *cough* *cough*

Please go take care of that cough!  Now......

I do think Harry is important to the defeat of Voldemort but I am not 
sure how.  I understand what you are saying and I agree with you.  
Harry wouldn't necessarily have to be the most powerful (like 
Dumbledore) wizard to defeat V.  Maybe it does have to do with Harry 
being a Seer.  Personally, I would love to see Dumbledore and 
Voldemort go after it more than I would Harry and Voldemort.  But 
then I just love D.  Also, I do believe Snape hates Harry but knows 
that Harry is needed to help defeat Voldemort, therefore Snape will 
do his best to keep Harry alive.

Koinonia  




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 03:19:41 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 03:19:41 -0000
Subject: Snape's love/school days
In-Reply-To: <4a.156edbec.2829bb6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dad0d+5k9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18418

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:

> I have been intrigued by the reports of Snape as a student.  
Turning 
>  up at Hogwarts knowing more curses/hexes/dark arts than any 6th 
year 
>  students I find particularly interesting.  Where did he learn this 
>  from?  Who are his parents?  What kind of background does he come 
>  from?

All questions that serious Snape lovers would love to know.  How 
would a young kid know so much?  Who taught him?  The misery of 
having to wait to find out....



  The Marauders make him out to be a very unpopular character, 
>  so in this he differs from Draco, who is at least popular with his 
>  own housemates.   This may be the Marauders' POV.


I don't think the Marauders made him out to be unpopular.  They were 
just enemies so of course they wouldn't have anything nice to say 
about Snape. I don't recall anywhere in the books where it is stated 
that Snape wasn't popular.

  
  I tend to think of 
>  him as similar, and much less pleasant as the Hermione we first 
>  encounter - the rigid adherence to rules, a know-it-all etc.  I 
get 
>  the feeling that he tried very hard to be teachers' pet, but that 
>  even the majority of the teachers found him repellent. 

I just don't see this at all.  Why would the teachers be repelled by 
him?  He seems intelligent and I would assume he was a hard working 
student.

I am just not one of those who think Snape was just some pathetic kid 
at school who was disliked by all.  Then again, I have been wrong 
before!

Koinonia  


 




From maginker at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 03:18:10 2001
From: maginker at yahoo.com (maginker at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 03:18:10 -0000
Subject: Lucius at Hogwarts?
Message-ID: <9dacti+9qnq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18419

Hi everyone.  I have been lurking for some time now, and thought this 
would be a good time to post.

I was wondering if it says anywhere in canon, that Lucius Malfoy 
went to Hogwarts.  In SS/PS, when Harry first met Draco, he says 
that "all our family have been", but maybe he meant all his family 
that went to Hogwarts.  I think maybe Lucious went to Drumstang.  We 
know Karkaroff is the headmaster, and that he was a DE, so maybe he 
met Malfoy there.  Also, IIRC, in GoF it stated that Durmstrang 
taught more dark arts than Hogwarts.  And I could be pulling this 
completly out of thin air, but I think I remember Draco saying that 
he was going to go to Durmstrang, but his mother didn't want him to 
leave the country.  I skimmed the book, but couldn't find it. 

 If I am wrong on this last part, would someone please let me know.






From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 03:41:44 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 03:41:44 -0000
Subject: Draco
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F42@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9dae9o+qcbj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18420

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> If Draco decided not to become a Death Eater, would there be any 
option for
> him, other than acting in a manner that supports Dumbledore's 
crowd, even if
> he doesn't want to?


Where do I start with Draco.  He is a spoiled kid.  No doubt about 
it.  I don't like the way he talks about the Weasleys.  I don't like 
the way he talks about Harry's dead parents.  I don't like the way he 
talks down to Hermione.  The way he spoke of Cedric at the end of GoF 
says much about where he stands right now. He is cleary, IMO, on the 
side of his family and the DE's.  It is all he has known.  He has 
been raised in a family that is known for their involvement in the 
dark arts. Draco is just continuing in the family tradition.  

However, I believe there is going to come a time when Draco has to 
decide if the dark side is the side he truly wants to be on.  I don't 
know if Draco has personally lost anyone close to him (because of 
Voldemort).  What will Draco do if someone he loves is killed?  Will 
he have second thoughts about being a Voldemort supporter?  He will 
have to choose one day and I would like to think he will choose the 
good side.  It will be hard for him to do. I also believe there will 
be people we like who will turn to the dark side.  Someone has too.  
Not everyone will be with Dumbledore.

What options will there be for Draco if he doesn't become a DE?  I 
believe Snape could be one that Draco and other Slytherins could turn 
to.  I do believe the Slytherins like Snape and I also think Snape 
cares for them.  I truly do.  

I don't know if Draco will be willing to give up his family ties in 
order to join the good side.  It will be a difficult decision for him.

Koinonia





From floridian127 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 03:43:48 2001
From: floridian127 at yahoo.com (floridian127 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 03:43:48 -0000
Subject: Harry's Dreams, Eagle Owl 
In-Reply-To: <20010509030105.30911.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9daedk+7gm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18421

I believe the turban dream was a hidden realization of Voldamort's 
presence. Although it was not noticed my first read through. 

Is there any significance to Eagle Owls. Malfoy owns one and the 
message delivered to Voldemort was delivered by one. Did Moody/Crouch 
use Malfoy's? Is this just insignificant fluff? 


Buccy - Floridian House Elf   (pronounced Buck-e) 
Thank you again kind sirs and mams, thank you. 
(Buccy bows away from computer, magically hits send)


Previous post: 
Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> Harry's dreams fall into two categories. He has clairvoyant dreams, 
when he sees things that are happening far away. His dream of Frank's 
death is an example of that. He also has prescient dreams, where he 
sees the future. These tend to come directly out of images and 
feelings of the present, such as his dream shortly after arriving at 
Hogwarts for the first time when he saw Quirrel's turban speaking to 
him. 
 
Andrea wrote:
> Hmm.  Interesting point.  I've never seen it that way.
His dreams of things happening far away have always
been, to my recollection, of things that Voldemort is
doing at the time. (ie, kiling Frank)  I always
thought that it was the same "connection" to Voldie
through the scar that transmitted those particularly
murderous scenes to Harry via dreams.
> 
The dream Harry had about Quirrel's turban, though, I
had interpreted as Voldemort purposely contacting
Harry, trying to turn him without a direct
confrontation.  I hadn't thought about it as Harry
being a possible Seer...are there any other
"prescient" dreams of Harry's you can name?






From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed May  9 03:57:16 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 03:57:16 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco
Message-ID: <F21j6bT6nfyOKXznSLm000005f7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18422

Koinonia wrote:

>What options will there be for Draco if he doesn't become a DE?  I
>believe Snape could be one that Draco and other Slytherins could turn
>to.  I do believe the Slytherins like Snape and I also think Snape
>cares for them.  I truly do.
>
>I don't know if Draco will be willing to give up his family ties in
>order to join the good side.  It will be a difficult decision for him.
>

Difficult, yet not impossible.  In fact, it happens all the time in real 
life.

Any time someone who is dear to us undergoes an ideological change, it 
changes our relationship with them.  Sometimes it changes that relationship 
irrevocably.

C.S. Lewis, in the book I just finished re-reading (*The Four Loves*) has 
much to say about this in his article on "Affection"--which he defines as 
love for that which is familiar, such as family, old friends, pets, etc.  
Perhaps tomorrow I'll try to compose a post on this if the thread on Draco 
continues... I'm far too sleepy right now.

--Ebony (who wants to picket heaven for a 36-hour day... 24 just isn't 
enough to get everything done!)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
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And wait, and tend our agonizing seeds."

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From nera at rconnect.com  Wed May  9 04:13:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 04:13:28 -0000
Subject: Reserving Order of the Phoenix ... when?
Message-ID: <9dag58+a605@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18423

Having never been in on the wait for the appointed day on which the 
newest edition of Harry Potter had been released, I am interested in 
just how this event unfolds.

How soon before the release date can one reserve a copy? I know from 
the experience of the two Comic Books, that no money can exchange 
hands, and no sales records can be on the register for the book until 
the appointed time on the appointed day. I had to trust the shop 
keepers to take my money, and put it in an envelope with my name and 
address on it and send me the books when they were allowed to ring it 
up. It was an hour trip and I begged them not to make me do it again.

So, anyway ... do you put your name on a list for the book? Then 
what? You show up at the store and IF your name is on the list, you 
get first chance at buying the book? How much time does the store 
give you to claim your book before they take your name off of the 
list and sell it to someone else with cash in hand?

Has anyone had their name on the list and when they got there, 
decided they wanted two or three copies? If so, what happened? Does 
JKR always do the midnight thing?  I know it was a huge deal with 
book four ... was it also with book three or not?

Thanks.
Just curious how this is going to go when she gets the information 
out that the book is finished.
Doreen




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 04:43:14 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 04:43:14 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - POV
In-Reply-To: <9d8mvb+sgk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9daht2+cd1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18424

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Stacy wrote:
> 
> >Everything furthers the plot. And 
> >that was the hole; Icicle wasn't needed. She didn't further the 
plot. 
> >And so a lot of time was spent in cutting her out.
> 
> I don't think so.  It sounds possible that she DID further the 
plot; 
> she did what Rita now does for it--get private information out into 
> the public.  For some reason we don't know, she didn't work and the 
> reporter character had to be expanded.

That wasn't quite what I meant. What happened, I think, is that 
Icicle and Rita ended up serving the same purpose, and furthering the 
plot in the same way. My guess is that Jo was forced to choose 
between the two, and she chose Rita (for whatever reason -- probably 
because she was more fun to write).

Stacy




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 05:29:16 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:29:16 -0000
Subject: # of Prefects 
In-Reply-To: <9da18v+jo36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dakjc+al15@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18425

It appears to me that there is a 5th, 6th, and 7th year prefect 
for each house. Whether there are two for each grade is not 
proven or disproven. Percy was prefect his 5th year but surely 
not the only one for Gryffindor. He would not have made prefect 
over all the 6th and 7th years if there were only one per house. 

Hermione definitely, Draco probably, Dean sounds plauseable, 
Ron has grade issues and so does Neville. 

Bugg 


Scott wrote:
Head Boy and Girl is very different than prefect because there 
are only two in the whole school, whereas there are two prefects 
per house (a boy and girl), or is it two prefects per years 5,6, and 
7 per house? Argh! I can't remember.
 
And what about Draco?
 
Scott 






From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 05:38:42 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:38:42 -0000
Subject: Psychologists say HP is wonderful!
In-Reply-To: <9d97c8+15tp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dal52+7it3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18426

Harry came from an abusive relationship and learned how to be 
a friend. He has chosen good friends over powerfull ones. He 
does not value money over friendships. His only adult role models 
prior to Hogwarts were Dursleys and old lady Figg. He now is 
developing trust relationships with adults which is very hard 
after a troubled childhood. 

[Reference to Arabella Figg as 'old lady Figg' is for Harry POV 
only. No disrespect to Mrs Figg is intended.] 

Bugg 


Milz wrote:
Gaining insight would be that much of Harry's adventures could 
be averted if he were to actually trust adults enough to confide 
in them and to believe what they tell him because not all adults 
are like the Dursleys. From my understanding, that particular 
psychiatrist saw children not gaining insight from Harry, but 
using Harry as an excuse to justify their own actions. That could 
be quite alarming to a parent or to a therapist. That's why I 
think parents have the obligation to discuss the books (any book 
for that matter) with their children, so that the child can 
identify Harry's mistakes and possibly avoid them.
> :-)Milz 


Parents have the obligation to discuss the books (any book 
for that matter) with their children, so that the child can 
identify mistakes and possibly avoid them. 

Intentionally repeated. Bugg 





From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Wed May  9 05:57:13 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:57:13 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry as Prefect
Message-ID: <20010509044643.D25C512D31@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18427

>And what about Draco?

I dont know about Draco. We dont actually know anything about his school 
record. What we see of him is more the picture of "The Class Clown" doing 
impressions of Harry and generally mocking the Gryffindors.

Draco as Prefect would probably depend upon whom decides who the prefects 
should be... The School board, The head of each house, Dumbledore, Even the 
students themselves in some way.

Darreder

>Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Wed May  9 06:03:43 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:03:43 +0200
Subject: Dumbledore turns evil.
Message-ID: <20010509045313.E1BB312D31@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18428

No I dont know if this would happen, and I hope it does not.

However with the discussions on this board about, Snape=Good/evil, Draco 
=Good/evil, I think it is a fun debate.

Imagine the impact on the story if Dumbledore suddenly came out a stalvart 
supporter of V. Now I dont have any evidence to back this up, (And a lot of 
evidence against it) but think about the surprice effect, it would have. And 
which Writer wouldnt love to surprice har fans ?to such a magnitude.

Darreder

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From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Wed May  9 06:08:10 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 06:08:10 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore turns evil.
In-Reply-To: <20010509045313.E1BB312D31@postfix2.ofir.com>
Message-ID: <9damsa+auhv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18429


Yes, it is a fun debate, just like the whole Snape equals evil or 
good debate. (Yeah, yeah, anything that discuss Snape is my favourite)

Though I don't think Dumbledore will turn evil in the future books, 
but wouldn't it be great fun if he once *was* evil? 
That would really make him a more developed, believeable character 
and it would make sense according to what he is saying about choices 
and the trust he has in Snape. Mabye one of the resons why Dumbledore 
has complete faith in Snape is because he knows out of his own 
experience that one *can* change side and really mean it. He seems a 
little touchy on this subject as well, don't you think? 
We know so little about Dumbledore's past and during his 150 years 
lifetime he surely must have had the chances to turn to the wrong 
side? 

No, I don't know. Just a thought and now I should get back to my 
violently funny computer course...

Happy hunting,

Lilith M

-----------------------------
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our 
abilities." Albus Dumbledore (CoS Ch 18, pg 333)
----------------------------- 

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tim Kronsell <timkronsell2 at o...> wrote:
> No I dont know if this would happen, and I hope it does not.
> 
> However with the discussions on this board about, Snape=Good/evil, 
Draco 
> =Good/evil, I think it is a fun debate.
> 
> Imagine the impact on the story if Dumbledore suddenly came out a 
stalvart 
> supporter of V. Now I dont have any evidence to back this up, (And 
a lot of 
> evidence against it) but think about the surprice effect, it would 
have. And 
> which Writer wouldnt love to surprice har fans ?to such a magnitude.
> 
> Darreder
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> K?b, s?lg eller efterlys varer i det nye auktionshus p? nettet: 
http://www.ofir.dk/auktion
> K?b ind p? nettet - pr?v det p? http://www.ofir.dk/shopping
> F? din egen gratis email p? http://www.ofir.dk/mail




From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Wed May  9 06:24:22 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 06:24:22 -0000
Subject: Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <000a01c0d81d$255d5a20$dae7183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9danqm+qft9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18430





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> Am I missing something?  Is there canon evidence that the Weasleys 
and Lucius Malfoy went to school together?

No, there isn't. We only know from the canon that Arthur Weasley and 
Lucius Malfoy aren't the best of friends and from there I guess 
everyone draw the conclusion that they must know each other from 
somewhere, possibly school. On the other hand they're both Ministry 
workers and they could as well met there. 

> I imagine Malfoy being older than Snape and the Marauders, but I 
don't remember any information in canon that places him specifically 
on the Hogwarts alumni timeline.  but then I could be missing 
something.

I imagine that too. I imagine Malfoy being one of those older guys 
that possibly made Snape interested in being a Death Eater in the 
first place. I don't think I will go into all my theories about these 
two guys, but they surely were some kind of friends. 
When Sirius are telling Harry and the others about Snape as a 
schoolboy he mentions no Lucius Malfoy, and since he's such a 
important character I don't think he would have left him out. But no 
evidence, just my own speculations, for what it's worth.

Lilith Morgana

---------------------------
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our 
abilities."Albus Dumbledore (CoS Ch 18, pg 333) 
---------------------------
> 
> ender
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: browneyes1420 at a... 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 7:38 PM
>   Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks - 
Snape, Snape, Snape
> 
> 
>   oh get real,
>   Snape gay??? 
>   <snip>
>   he also could not have been freinds 
>   with malfoy because Lucius went to school with Aurther who was in 
a older 
>   than than James, Sirus, etc. 
>   <snip>
>   , Joe  
> 
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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>        
> 
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From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Wed May  9 09:19:32 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 09:19:32 -0000
Subject: Lucius at Hogwarts and Rita Skeeter/Plot holes
Message-ID: <9db234+8ohk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18431

It is implied that Lucuis went to Hogwarts when Draco is talking to 
the Polyjuiced Ron and Harry about the Chamber of secrets.  He says 
something like "Father knows stuff about the last time the chamber was 
opened, although it was before his time"

Rita and Plot holes
Someone mentioned JKR built up Rita to fill the infamous plot hole and 
act as the conduit for info from the school. I thought from this that 
probably Rita wasn't originally going to be an unregistered animagus. 
 (Who else had that Oh no! not another unregistered animagus feeling 
when that was revealed?)  Anyone else think that seems plausible?

Anyway if that is the case it gives me a little more hope that Rita 
might indeed keep her word to Hermione on no more reporting for a 
year, and actually keep her nose out of things for a while.

Florence




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed May  9 09:47:55 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 05:47:55 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F4B@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18432

Just to keep canon as clean as possible, I wanted to point out that nothing
in canon says lucius is a ministry employee or official- draco only says he
"associates" with the best people there, and that can mean so many other
things than work, like socializes or chairs charities or plots against
mudbloods with...
--------------------------
Please reply to htandy at carltonfields.com

Confidential:  This e-mail may contain a communication protected by the
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mis-delivery. Thank you.


-----Original Message-----
From: *Lilith Morgana* <lilith_snape at hotmail.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed May 09 02:24:22 2001
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?

Real-To:  "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at hotmail.com>





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> Am I missing something?  Is there canon evidence that the Weasleys 
and Lucius Malfoy went to school together?

No, there isn't. We only know from the canon that Arthur Weasley and 
Lucius Malfoy aren't the best of friends and from there I guess 
everyone draw the conclusion that they must know each other from 
somewhere, possibly school. On the other hand they're both Ministry 
workers and they could as well met there. 

> I imagine Malfoy being older than Snape and the Marauders, but I 
don't remember any information in canon that places him specifically 
on the Hogwarts alumni timeline.  but then I could be missing 
something.

I imagine that too. I imagine Malfoy being one of those older guys 
that possibly made Snape interested in being a Death Eater in the 
first place. I don't think I will go into all my theories about these 
two guys, but they surely were some kind of friends. 
When Sirius are telling Harry and the others about Snape as a 
schoolboy he mentions no Lucius Malfoy, and since he's such a 
important character I don't think he would have left him out. But no 
evidence, just my own speculations, for what it's worth.

Lilith Morgana

---------------------------
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our 
abilities."Albus Dumbledore (CoS Ch 18, pg 333) 
---------------------------
> 
> ender
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: browneyes1420 at a... 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 7:38 PM
>   Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks - 
Snape, Snape, Snape
> 
> 
>   oh get real,
>   Snape gay??? 
>   <snip>
>   he also could not have been freinds 
>   with malfoy because Lucius went to school with Aurther who was in 
a older 
>   than than James, Sirus, etc. 
>   <snip>
>   , Joe  
> 
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 10:06:53 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 03:06:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Look of Triumph -- Crookshanks -- Snape's "mission" -- dementing Crouch Jr.
In-Reply-To: <9d9v9s+dcbe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010509100653.42892.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18433

>1. Dumbledore's look of triumph: Could it be, when he rushes to 
> look at Harry's arm, that he's checking for a Dark Mark? And not 
> seeing one, momentarily feels triumphant? 


Excellent suggestion.


>      3. Snape's "mission" seems to elicit fear in him ("He looked 
> slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered 
> strangely.") And, of course, if he were afraid, he'd NEVER admit in
> front of those witnesses. Unless another emotion is causing him to 
> become pale -- but would fear cause his cold, black eyes to glitter
> strangely? That doesn't seem like a "fear" reaction. That's almost 
> like he's looking forward to what he has been asked to do. 


I assumed his eyes glittered because they filled with tears.


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From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Wed May  9 11:09:37 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:09:37 -0000
Subject: Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F4B@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9db8hh+1qfs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18434

Oh, sorry I didn't realise that. It's true, they never say what 
Malfoy does for a living at all. He's probably one of the people who 
are rich and powerful enough to be able to enjoy a laid-back 
life...*grins* 


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> Just to keep canon as clean as possible, I wanted to point out that 
nothing
> in canon says lucius is a ministry employee or official- draco only 
says he
> "associates" with the best people there, and that can mean so many 
other
> things than work, like socializes or chairs charities or plots 
against
> mudbloods with...
> --------------------------
> Please reply to htandy at c...
> 
> Confidential:  This e-mail may contain a communication protected by 
the
> attorney-client privilege.  If you do not expect such a 
communication from
> Heidi Howard Tandy, please delete this message without reading it 
or any
> attachment, and then notify htandy at c... of this inadvertent
> mis-delivery. Thank you.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: *Lilith Morgana* <lilith_snape at h...>
> To: HPforGrownups at y... <HPforGrownups at y...>
> Sent: Wed May 09 02:24:22 2001
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
> 
> Real-To:  "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> > Am I missing something?  Is there canon evidence that the 
Weasleys 
> and Lucius Malfoy went to school together?
> 
> No, there isn't. We only know from the canon that Arthur Weasley 
and 
> Lucius Malfoy aren't the best of friends and from there I guess 
> everyone draw the conclusion that they must know each other from 
> somewhere, possibly school. On the other hand they're both Ministry 
> workers and they could as well met there. 
> 
> > I imagine Malfoy being older than Snape and the Marauders, but I 
> don't remember any information in canon that places him 
specifically 
> on the Hogwarts alumni timeline.  but then I could be missing 
> something.
> 
> I imagine that too. I imagine Malfoy being one of those older guys 
> that possibly made Snape interested in being a Death Eater in the 
> first place. I don't think I will go into all my theories about 
these 
> two guys, but they surely were some kind of friends. 
> When Sirius are telling Harry and the others about Snape as a 
> schoolboy he mentions no Lucius Malfoy, and since he's such a 
> important character I don't think he would have left him out. But 
no 
> evidence, just my own speculations, for what it's worth.
> 
> Lilith Morgana
> 
> ---------------------------
> "It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our 
> abilities."Albus Dumbledore (CoS Ch 18, pg 333) 
> ---------------------------
> > 
> > ender
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: browneyes1420 at a... 
> >   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
> >   Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 7:38 PM
> >   Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Wolsfbane - Fudge - Draco's Marks 
- 
> Snape, Snape, Snape
> > 
> > 
> >   oh get real,
> >   Snape gay??? 
> >   <snip>
> >   he also could not have been freinds 
> >   with malfoy because Lucius went to school with Aurther who was 
in 
> a older 
> >   than than James, Sirus, etc. 
> >   <snip>
> >   , Joe  
> > 
> > 
> >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed May  9 11:57:30 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:57:30 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - discrediting Harry - Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <20010509030105.30911.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9dbbba+iupc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18435

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> --- Steve Vander Ark <vderark at b...> wrote:
> > Harry's dreams fall into two categories. He has
> > clairvoyant dreams, 
> > when he sees things that are happening far away. His
> > dream of Frank's 
...are there any other
> "prescient" dreams of Harry's you can name?
> 
> 
> Andrea
> 
> =====
> "Reality is for people who lack imagination."
> 

Sure - in PoA he dreams about chasing after something bright and white 
that he can't quite catch up to.  Now, I just looked through the book 
and can't find it, but this dream was before Harry was able to conjure 
his patronus of Prongs.  Does anyone else remember that dream?

--jenny from ravenc




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 12:56:06 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 05:56:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]OT: Regional groups: Florida
In-Reply-To: <005c01c0d6ca$bc62bfe0$823670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <20010509125606.10496.qmail@web1603.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18436


--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> It's a good idea for one or two willing people to offer themselves as
> off list contacts to get an idea of the feasibility of local
meetings,
> before setting up a list.  

<steps very cautiously out> Hullo all! I'm the one who originally asked
about more regional groups for HP4FU. And since there doesn't seem to
be a group for the region that I live in (the loverly state of Florida
in the United States), I'd like to start one.

I believe that there are a couple more people on here from Florida but
have no idea of how many. If *you* (that's right, you hiding back in
the corner behind the HP book) would like to meet other Harry Potter
fanatics in Florida, please email me at reanna20 at yahoo.com (NOT the
list please). Honestly, right now I just want to see if there is any
interest whatsoever. If there is none, well I guess I'm out of luck.
So, again the email address is reanna20 at yahoo.com and my name's Amber.
Got it? Good!

<retreats back into darkness hoping that she's caught the interests of
others>

~Amber
 

=====
"toil, toil, toil, toil, toil,
TOIL!
the world is NOT made of money;
it's made of plants, roots, trees,
breaths of air, lizards darting in the leaves..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From old_wych at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 13:06:57 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 06:06:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Knight Bus (was POA Chapters 3 and 4)
In-Reply-To: <9d9iu5+svr8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010509130657.10457.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18437


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Does the Knight Bus only run at night?  That idea
> got planted in my 
> head when I thought it was Night Bus and has never
> gotten uprooted.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> 
> 
I got the impression it only ran at night, too. Partly
from the name and partly form the fact that there are
beds in it instead of seats. (Although I suppose the
beds could magically turn into seats for daytime???)

I get the impression the "knight" spelling was a play
on words: the bus runs at night, combined with the
"knight in shining armour" idea. (The bus comes to
Harry's rescue just in time.) 

Along these lines, there was a recent discussion about
the Hogwart's Express, and it was brought up that
Hagrid took the Night Bus with Buckbeak and not the
train. Perhaps Hagrid had to be in London early in the
morning (don't remember off the top of my head if
there's a time of day given for the trial) so he took
the Knight Bus because it runs overnight, and by
extention the HE runs during the day...

Anne


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From jfenne at uwalumni.com  Wed May  9 13:12:41 2001
From: jfenne at uwalumni.com (Jennifer Fenne)
Date: 9 May 2001 06:12:41 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Knight Bus (was POA Chapters 3 and 4)
Message-ID: <20010509131241.23776.cpmta@c014.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18438

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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May  9 13:21:18 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 13:21:18 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - discrediting Harry - Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <9dbbba+iupc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dbg8e+v2ap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18439

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea <ra_1013 at y...> wrote:
> > --- Steve Vander Ark <vderark at b...> wrote:
> > > Harry's dreams fall into two categories. He has
> > > clairvoyant dreams, 
> > > when he sees things that are happening far away. His
> > > dream of Frank's 
> ...are there any other
> > "prescient" dreams of Harry's you can name?

> Sure - in PoA he dreams about chasing after something bright and 
white 
> that he can't quite catch up to.  Now, I just looked through the 
book 
> and can't find it, but this dream was before Harry was able to 
conjure 
> his patronus of Prongs.  Does anyone else remember that dream?

I've found the passage I think that you mean - but it doesn't seem 
conclusive of clairvoyancy, either way:

"He had a very strange dream.  He was walking through a forest, his 
Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery white.,  It 
was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch 
glimpses of it between the leaves.  Anxious to catch up with it, he 
sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry.  Harry broke into 
a run and ahead, he heard hooves gathering speed.  Now he was running 
flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping.  Then he turned into a 
clearing and - "  (Then he is awoken by Ron screaming, as Sirius is 
ripping to shreds his bedcovers.)

I am not sure what this is supposed to convey, but to me, it seems 
that the dream is telling Harry that the patronus exists inside him - 
he just needs to be strong enough to harness it.  Any thoughts?

Catherine




From devika261 at aol.com  Wed May  9 14:38:35 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:38:35 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Dreams, Eagle Owl 
Message-ID: <5a.154320a5.282ab06b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18440

In a message dated Wed, 9 May 2001  1:01:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, floridian127 at yahoo.com writes:

<< I believe the turban dream was a hidden realization of Voldamort's 
presence. Although it was not noticed my first read through. 

Is there any significance to Eagle Owls. Malfoy owns one and the 
message delivered to Voldemort was delivered by one. Did Moody/Crouch 
use Malfoy's? Is this just insignificant fluff? 


Buccy - Floridian House Elf   (pronounced Buck-e) 
Thank you again kind sirs and mams, thank you. 
(Buccy bows away from computer, magically hits send)


Previous post: 
Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> Harry's dreams fall into two categories. He has clairvoyant dreams, 
when he sees things that are happening far away. His dream of Frank's 
death is an example of that. He also has prescient dreams, where he 
sees the future. These tend to come directly out of images and 
feelings of the present, such as his dream shortly after arriving at 
Hogwarts for the first time when he saw Quirrel's turban speaking to 
him. 
 
Andrea wrote:
> Hmm.  Interesting point.  I've never seen it that way.
His dreams of things happening far away have always
been, to my recollection, of things that Voldemort is
doing at the time. (ie, kiling Frank)  I always
thought that it was the same "connection" to Voldie
through the scar that transmitted those particularly
murderous scenes to Harry via dreams.
> 
The dream Harry had about Quirrel's turban, though, I
had interpreted as Voldemort purposely contacting
Harry, trying to turn him without a direct
confrontation.  I hadn't thought about it as Harry
being a possible Seer...are there any other
"prescient" dreams of Harry's you can name?


I don't think there is any such thing as "insignificant fluff" in the HP books.  I noticed the eagle owl as well, and the only connection I know of is the one with the Malfoys.  However, Harry's brain could have just randomly selected the eagle owl since he knew Draco had one (but I doubt it).
:) Devika




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 >>





From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May  9 14:45:24 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 14:45:24 -0000
Subject: Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <9db8hh+1qfs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dbl64+voem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18441

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> 
wrote:
> Oh, sorry I didn't realise that. It's true, they never say what 
> Malfoy does for a living at all. He's probably one of the people 
who 
> are rich and powerful enough to be able to enjoy a laid-back 
> life...*grins* 

We do know that he served on the Committee for the Disposal of 
Dangerous Creatures -- but no, we don't even know that. Perhaps he 
was only present in that whole debacle as the "plaintiff." 

He was a member of the Board of Governors of Hogwarts, of course, but 
that also doesn't mean he worked for the Ministry. 

My own take is that he doesn't officially work for the Ministry, he 
volunteers his time and influence wherever it seems to him that it 
would help him personally. 

Just a side note, I love the idea that he just might be the rich man 
who owns the Riddle House, mentioned in GF1, who keeps it for tax 
purposes, although no one can quite figure out what tax purposes 
those might be. Hey, Lucious had Tom Riddle's old diary...maybe he 
has Tom Riddle's grandparents' old house too. 

And then, with that in mind and since we know that wizards live 
longer than Muggles, maybe Lucious was one of those "closest friends" 
at Hogwarts to whom Tom Riddle was already known as Voldemort, fifty 
years ago.

Just to set the record straight, Lucious and Narcissa were both in 
Slytherin, according to Draco in SS, and therefore yes, they went to 
Hogwarts.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a page about the Malfoy family
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed May  9 14:50:05 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 14:50:05 -0000
Subject: Plot hole - discrediting Harry - Harry as Seer?
In-Reply-To: <9dbg8e+v2ap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dblet+f114@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18442

Hi Catherine!
> 
> I've found the passage I think that you mean - but it doesn't seem 
> conclusive of clairvoyancy, either way:
> 
> "He had a very strange dream.  He was walking through a forest, his 
> Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery white.,  It 
> was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch 
> glimpses of it between the leaves.  Anxious to catch up with it, he 
> sped up, but as he moved faster, so did his quarry.  Harry broke 
into 
> a run and ahead, he heard hooves gathering speed.  Now he was 
running 
> flat out, and ahead he could hear galloping.  Then he turned into a 
> clearing and - "  (Then he is awoken by Ron screaming, as Sirius is 
> ripping to shreds his bedcovers.)
> 
> I am not sure what this is supposed to convey, but to me, it seems 
> that the dream is telling Harry that the patronus exists inside him 
- 
> he just needs to be strong enough to harness it.  Any thoughts?
> 
I happen to be home from work today (jury duty at 12:30) and I had 
time to also find the passage.

I like what you said about the patronus already existing in Harry.  
That is probably true, but I also think that he was "seeing" what the 
patronus was.  Remember, he had no idea that his father had been an 
unregistered animagus and he didn't know that he was a stag.  How 
could Harry have had such a specific dream - hooves and all?  I think 
it's another example that fits in quite nicely with the idea of Harry 
as a Seer.

--jenny from ravenclaw************************************




From deeblite at home.com  Wed May  9 14:45:33 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:45:33 -0400
Subject: Student population at Hogwarts
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010509103655.00a3c080@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18443

I don't know if this has been discussed here before or not, but I know it 
has been in the alt.fan.harry-potter newsgroup.

Has anybody figured out the approximate number of students that attend 
hogwarts?   Based on the numer of students in Harry's dorm, assuming that's 
about average for the students in each house in every year, there should be 
somewhere around 300 students. (high estimate.  Assuming it's 5 students in 
each dorm, male and female dorms, 7 years, 4 houses, there should be 280 
students).  Now, in GoF, at the Yule ball,there were around 100 
tables,  and each table held 12 people.  1200 seats.   Now, I know this was 
also to account for the Beauxbaton and Durmstrang students,but I figure 
there couldnt have been more than 100 of them overall. That leaves about 
1100 seats  And there were almost no hogwarts students over 4th year there, 
and not even all the 4th years and above would have been there.  Based on 
this, it would seem the 300 student estimate seems FAR too low.  So, what 
does everyone think about this? 




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May  9 14:56:27 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 14:56:27 -0000
Subject: Harry's Dreams, Eagle Owl
In-Reply-To: <5a.154320a5.282ab06b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dblqr+os11@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18444

> I don't think there is any such thing as "insignificant fluff" in 
the HP books.  I noticed the eagle owl as well, and the only 
connection I know of is the one with the Malfoys.  However, Harry's 
brain could have just randomly selected the eagle owl since he knew 
Draco had one (but I doubt it).
> :) Devika

This is exactly why I think Harry IS a seer. His brain randomly 
selects things that aren't random at all. Whether that's prescience 
or just an ability to put things together accurately, it's an example 
of something special. Add to that his ability to sense the presense 
of others when they can't be seen and you get quite a nice portrait 
of someone who has psychic abilities.

Steve




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May  9 15:07:57 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:07:57 -0000
Subject: Student population at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010509103655.00a3c080@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9dbmgd+89uq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18445

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote:
> I don't know if this has been discussed here before or not, but I 
know it 
> has been in the alt.fan.harry-potter newsgroup.
> 
> Has anybody figured out the approximate number of students that 
attend 
> hogwarts

This has been debated and debated over and over again. If you want to 
read a nice concise article on the subject that covers pretty much 
all the territory we've covered, check out this page of the Lexicon:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_howmany.html

Feel free to pass that URL on to the folks on that newsgroup.

I have a feeling that most people on this list would rather not go 
back into it. This subject has come up several times and each time 
we've walked over the same ground in infinite detail. Check the 
archives if you want to follow those discussions, by all means.


Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From jenfold at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 15:18:30 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:18:30 -0000
Subject: Student population at Hogwarts--Prefects
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010509103655.00a3c080@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9dbn46+p4gq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18446

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote:
> I don't know if this has been discussed here before or not, but I 
know it 
> has been in the alt.fan.harry-potter newsgroup.
> 
> Has anybody figured out the approximate number of students that 
attend 
> hogwarts?   Based on the numer of students in Harry's dorm, 
assuming that's 
> about average for the students in each house in every year, there 
should be 
> somewhere around 300 students. (high estimate.  Assuming it's 5 
students in 
> each dorm, male and female dorms, 7 years, 4 houses, there should 
be 280 
> students).  Now, in GoF, at the Yule ball,there were around 100 
> tables,  and each table held 12 people.  1200 seats.   Now, I know 
this was 
> also to account for the Beauxbaton and Durmstrang students,but I 
figure 
> there couldnt have been more than 100 of them overall. That leaves 
about 
> 1100 seats  And there were almost no hogwarts students over 4th 
year there, 
> and not even all the 4th years and above would have been there.  
Based on 
> this, it would seem the 300 student estimate seems FAR too low.  
So, what 
> does everyone think about this?

 I believe that JKR has said herself in an interview that Hogwarts 
has about 1000 students. And remember JKR is always right, except 
when she or her publishers are wrong.

 From what we see of Harry's year this seems to be an overestimation 
of numbers but it's fairly likely that Harry's year could be small 
due to the war against Voldemort. As from what we've seen in the 
books a great number of wizarding families were wiped out, so the 
population size and number of children born would drop dramatically.
 I'd guess that from 1981 onwards there was probably a baby boom and 
the size of the years below Harry may be much larger. 


 Which brings me to another point that I find a little strange the 
discussions about who will be prefect suggest 2 per year for years 
5,6 and 7, per house and therefore a total of 24 prefects in the 
school. To me this number seems a little low although I am slightly 
biased the school I went to had 900 pupils and each of its four 
houses provided 12 prefects, however most people I know went to 
schools with similar proportions of prefects. To me 24 prefects just 
doesn't feel like enough to patrol the school corridors during breaks 
using their powers (for good or for ill).

 Anyway after that ramble I think it could be quite possible that 
more than 2 Gryffindors become prefects in Harry's year, but I'm 
still not sure who, apart from Hermione.  

 Muddying the waters

 Jen






From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed May  9 15:17:14 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:17:14 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <9dbl64+voem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOELNDIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 18447

Steve: <<<I love the idea that he just might be the rich man who owns the Riddle
House, mentioned in GF1, who keeps it for tax purposes, although no one can
quite figure out what tax purposes those might be. Hey, Lucious had Tom Riddle's
old diary...maybe he has Tom Riddle's grandparents' old house too.

And then, with that in mind and since we know that wizards live longer than
Muggles, maybe Lucious was one of those "closest friends" at Hogwarts to whom
Tom Riddle was already known as Voldemort, fifty years ago.>>>

This is quite unlikely. In CoS (chapter 12), when Harry and Ron are disguised as
Crabbe and Goyle, Draco says that:
"And father won't tell me anything about the last time the Chamber of Secrets
was opened, either. Of course, it was fifty years ago, so it was before his
time, but he knows all about it, and he says that it was all kept quiet and
it'll look suspicious if I know too much about it."

This implies that he only found out about it at a later date and so, as Tom
Riddle was a fifth year at the time, it is unlikely that Lucius and Tom were at
school together. If there time at Hogwarts did overlap then it would only have
been for a couple of years and I doubt that Tom would have trusted a first or
second year to with such information.

I personally place Lucius, and also Arthur and Molly, as being around 55 in the
books. I get the impression that all three went through Hogwarts at roughly the
same time.


Simon
--
"I didn't go to university. Didn't even finish A-levels. But I have sympathy for
those who did." - Terry Pratchett
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed May  9 15:39:51 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:39:51 -0000
Subject: Lucius at Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <9dacti+9qnq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dboc7+2nkn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18448

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., maginker at y... wrote:
> Hi everyone.  I have been lurking for some time now, and thought 
this 
> would be a good time to post.
> 
> I was wondering if it says anywhere in canon, that Lucius Malfoy 
> went to Hogwarts.  In SS/PS, when Harry first met Draco, he says 
> that "all our family have been", but maybe he meant all his family 
> that went to Hogwarts.  I think maybe Lucious went to Drumstang.  We 
> know Karkaroff is the headmaster, and that he was a DE, so maybe he 
> met Malfoy there.  Also, IIRC, in GoF it stated that Durmstrang 
> taught more dark arts than Hogwarts.  And I could be pulling this 
> completly out of thin air, but I think I remember Draco saying that 
> he was going to go to Durmstrang, but his mother didn't want him to 
> leave the country.  I skimmed the book, but couldn't find it. 
> 
>  If I am wrong on this last part, would someone please let me know.

There's nothing in the books to support this, but I have a gut feeling 
that Lucius Malfoy and Arthur Weasley were contemporaries at Hogwarts.
While reading CoS, I got the impression that there's some sort of 
bad-blood between the two that goes alot deeper than their economic 
differences.

In GoF, Draco does tell Goyle and Crabbe that his father wanted to 
send him to Durmstrang. 

:-)Milz




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed May  9 15:44:24 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:44:24 +0100
Subject: Harry as Seer? and Ron's school work
In-Reply-To: <9dbg8e+v2ap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOELODIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 18449

Steve: <<<Harry's dreams fall into two categories. He has clairvoyant dreams,
when he sees things that are happening far away. His dream of Frank's ...are
there any other "prescient" dreams of Harry's you can name?>>>

meboriqua at a... wrote: <<<Sure - in PoA he dreams about chasing after something
bright and white that he can't quite catch up to.  Now, I just looked through
the book and can't find it, but this dream was before Harry was able to conjure
his patronus of Prongs.  Does anyone else remember that dream?>>>

Catherine: <<<I've found the passage I think that you mean - but it doesn't seem
conclusive of clairvoyancy, either way:>>>

PoA chapter 13:<<<"He had a very strange dream.  He was walking through a
forest, his Firebolt over his shoulder, following something silvery white.,  It
was winding its way through the trees ahead, and he could only catch glimpses of
it between the leaves.  Anxious to catch up with it, he sped up, but as he moved
faster, so did his quarry.  Harry broke into a run and ahead, he heard hooves
gathering speed.  Now he was running flat out, and ahead he could hear
galloping.  Then he turned into a clearing and - "  (Then he is awoken by Ron
screaming, as Sirius is ripping to shreds his bedcovers.)>>>

Catherine: <<<I am not sure what this is supposed to convey, but to me, it seems
that the dream is telling Harry that the patronus exists inside him - he just
needs to be strong enough to harness it.  Any thoughts?>>>

Also it is conveying the idea that his father is a part of him. The Patronus
represents James, as Prongs, and so it also Harry trying to find out more about
his father and, ultimately leading to the quote from Dumbledore in chapter 22:
'So you did see you father last night, Harry ... you found him inside yourself.'



Jo: <<<simon..
I have always gotten the impression ron had troble with school... anyone can you
sopport this idea, or maybe counter it???
Cheers, Jo>>>

It would have been helpful if you had quoted part of my original message with
this so I had some idea as to what I had claimed in my previous message. Also I
would appreciate it if you spelt my name with a capital S.

Anyway the relevant part of my original message (number 17387) was: <<<He
[Draco] is definitely fairly able, but I see no evidence to place him any higher
than Harry and Ron. In fact I would go as far as to say that all three are
similarly academically gifted.>>>

Well yes I can support my view but unfortunately not give an exact quote, as my
copy of PS is on loan to a friend. Near the end of PS (SS for some) there is a
comment about exam results. This comment is something along the lines of, but as
I said before my copy of PS is elsewhere: "With all the excitement they had
forgotten that they were still to receive exam results. Hermione was top of the
year, Harry and Ron had achieved good grades ..." The rest of the quote goes on
about how Neville had passed with a good Herbology mark making up for a poor
Potions one and that even though Crabbe was as thick as two short planks he had
still managed to pass and so showing that you could not get everything you
wished for.

If my memory has been hideously ruined by revision (it has been a fairly bad day
and I seem to have zero attention span at the moment) then I am sure someone
will correct me, or possibly someone will give the exact quote anyway, but I am
fairly sure that though Ron is not top of the class he still does fairly well.


Simon
--
"I'm referred to, I see, as 'the biggest banker in modern publishing'. Now
there's a line that needed the celebrated Guardian proof-reading." - Terry
Pratchett
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May  9 16:04:18 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:04:18 -0000
Subject: Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOELNDIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9dbpq2+b079@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18450


> Muggles, maybe Lucious was one of those "closest friends" at 
Hogwarts to whom
> Tom Riddle was already known as Voldemort, fifty years ago.>>>
> 
> This is quite unlikely. In CoS (chapter 12), when Harry and Ron are 
disguised as
> Crabbe and Goyle, Draco says that:
> "And father won't tell me anything about the last time the Chamber 
of Secrets
> was opened, either. Of course, it was fifty years ago, so it was 
before his
> time, but he knows all about it, and he says that it was all kept 
quiet and
> it'll look suspicious if I know too much about it."

Excellent point. I'd forgotten that quote. I agree with you that 
Lucius and Narcissa seem to be more or less contemporaries of Molly 
and Arthur, although I am not absolutely convinced that the Weasleys 
are that young. We'll see...

Steve




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 16:04:41 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:04:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Student population at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010509103655.00a3c080@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <20010509160441.70064.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18451

> Has anybody figured out the approximate number of students that
> attend hogwarts?   

There is a reference in PoA (I think - I'm at work right now) to a
Quidditch match where 200 Slytherins sat together wearing green while
the other three-quarters of the school were spread out in the other
stands.  So there are at least 800 students.

I also believe there is a transcript where JKR says there are about
1,000 people at Hogwarts, which can be taken to mean teachers,
support staff, owl tenders, etc.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed May  9 15:10:07 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:10:07 -0500
Subject: # of Prefects
References: <9dakjc+al15@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF95DCF.E108FA8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18452

Hi --

Bugg wrote:

> Hermione definitely, Draco probably, Dean sounds plauseable,
> Ron has grade issues and so does Neville.

I don't think Ron has grade issues.  He & Harry are probably about the
same as far as marks go - and the implications are that they are
probably both above-average (or at least average, middle of the road
students), not poor ones.  Neville similarly doesn't necessarily have
grade issues.  As Simon pointed out, his outstanding herbology marks
make up for his horrible marks in potions.  But, he probably does at
least average or above-average in other courses.  Or, that's my
impression anyway.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed May  9 15:17:28 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:17:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reserving Order of the Phoenix ... when?
References: <9dag58+a605@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF95F88.3AEAE5E3@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18453

Hi --

nera at rconnect.com wrote:

> How soon before the release date can one reserve a copy?

You can reserve a copy on amazon (and probably other online booksellers
as well) right now!  I reserved GoF on pre-order through amazon, and
then became nervous that I wouldn't receive it in a timely fashion (this
was before their decision to FedEx copies to the first 250,000 pre-order
customers).  I also ended up wanting to take part in the midnight hoopla
events at an actual bookstore (and be able to settle in with my copy
early the next morning).  So, I ended up giving away my amazon pre-order
copy to a friend (a less obsessed friend) -- it did arrive via FedEx on
Sat morning, before noon btw.

> So, anyway ... do you put your name on a list for the book? Then
> what? You show up at the store and IF your name is on the list, you
> get first chance at buying the book?

A group of friends from my husband's law firm joined me at a local
bookstore last July.  One of them had reserved the copies in his name
and ended up having a late-running mediation that threatened to prevent
him from coming.  I thought it was hilarious that he insisted on taking
a break from mediation about 10:00 pm to call the bookstore to be sure
that they would release the books in his name to me or one of the
others.  They assured him that they would (but he did end up scurrying
in around 11:30).  We got tickets on a first-come first-served basis
(and you got the tickets by proving that your name was on a list with
reserved copies).  Then, they called people to the register in groups of
50 or so once the clock struck midnight (they had a New Year's Eve style
countdown).

> How much time does the store give you to claim your book before they
> take your name off of the list and sell it to someone else with cash
> in hand?

I had audio versions reserved at a B&N, and they called me before noon
on Sat morning to be sure I still wanted them.

> Has anyone had their name on the list and when they got there,
> decided they wanted two or three copies? If so, what happened? Does
> JKR always do the midnight thing?  I know it was a huge deal with
> book four ... was it also with book three or not?

Not that big a deal in the US.  The release date was different for one
thing, and alot of US customers ended up ordering PoA through the
internet booksellers rather than waiting for the US release date.  With
GoF, they decided to release simulataneously in the US & UK, and I doubt
they will ever change that.  Hard to say how the OoP events will be
handled -- I think the midnight events went off well, but there will be
even larger crowds & demand for OoP than for GoF.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed May  9 15:07:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:07:10 -0500
Subject: Student population at Hogwarts (Long!)
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010509103655.00a3c080@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <3AF95D1E.3394F1ED@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18454

Hi --

As Steve says, we've discussed this in alot of detail in the past.  The
Lexicon site has a good synopsis.  I'm also the person who drafted the
Hogwarts FAQ, and because we're being so slow about uploading the FAQs
(sorry!), I decided to cut & paste the Student Population section into
an email.  This section was composed based on the debates we've had on
this list (and its predecessor group).  It has arguments for & against a
small, mid-size & larger (1000 students) population.

My FAQ includes footnotes with message numbers that can be reviewed in
the Archives.  It is difficult to do that in an email, so those notes
have been omitted.

Enjoy!

Penny
(who is slowly trying to get a few email replies off each day & rejoin
the land of the living)

The Student Population at Hogwarts

If we were a less obsessed crowd, this section would consist of one
sentence: J.K. Rowling confirmed in an online chat that there are about
1,000 students at Hogwarts.   However, a number of our members are
completely unconvinced that this can be true.  They assert differing
estimates based on their interpretations of the internal evidence in the
books, arguing that Rowling must have been "wrong" when she made this
statement.  There are 3 schools of thought regarding the student
population at Hogwarts: (1) those who believe it must be a small number
(250-350); (2) those who favor a middle range of 450-600; and (3) those
who support the larger number confirmed by Rowling (800-1,000 students).

The Small Number of Students School of Thought

The proponents of a student population ranging from 250 - 350 students
cite the following internal evidence to support their arguments.

Number of Gryffindor Students in Harry's Year

There are 8 known Gryffindor students in Harry's year (Harry Potter, Ron
Weasley, Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnegan, Neville Longbottom, Hermione
Granger, Parvarti Patil and Lavender Brown).  There are roughly 20
students in each combination of 2 Houses (see "20 Broomsticks/20
Cauldrons/20 Earmuffs" below).  This translates into roughly 40 students
in Harry's year.  This yields a total student population (if Harry's
year is more or less on par with the numbers of students in other years)
of 280 students.

By contrast, if there should be 1,000 students, then there should be
roughly 143 students per year (1000 ? 7 years).  This would translate
into roughly 35 students per each of the 4 Hogwarts Houses in each
year.  Even assuming unequal sorting into the Houses (no Sorting Hat
quotas), Harry's year of Gryffindors would be wildly underpopulated if
they should have closer to 35 students (rather than 8).  See also "20
Broomsticks/20 Cauldrons/20 Earmuffs" below for arguments that Harry's
entire year (not just Gryffindors) must be smaller than needed to have
143 students (unless there are 110 Ravenclaws).

Members have wondered whether there could be another dormitory room for
Gryffindor boys.   Others insist that this cannot be since CoS states
that Harry was joined by "the other Gryffindor boys," not "some of the
other Gryffindor boys."

Are there only 3 Gryffindor girls in Harry's year?  Some say that this
must be the case as we would have been introduced to any other
Gryffindor girls by this point.   But, one member spotted an important
revelation in the scene in PoA when Harry's Defense Against the Dark
Arts class fights the boggart (presumably only Gryffindors are
present).  Correlating the shapes that the boggart assumed with the
students, this member notes that there are 2 unidentified Gryffindor
girls in this scene.   However, this is the only evidence of another 2
Gryffindor students for Harry's year.  We cannot be certain that there
are two additional female students in Harry's year at this point since
this could just be an isolated error.

Length of Sorting Ceremony

Sorting 143 students in the Sorting Ceremony would take hours (assuming
an average of one minute per student).

Length of Tables

The four House tables in the Great Hall would need to be slightly longer
than the size of an American football field to accommodate 250 students
each.  There has been no mention of sound amplification in the Great
Hall, and this would also be necessary if it were that large.  Harry can
also always see the Staff Table quite clearly, and this might not be as
likely if there were 1,000 students in the Great Hall.   Some have
countered that there was seating for about 1200 people at the Yule Ball
(see below); therefore, the space is there for large tables capable of
seating 250 people in each House.

Size of Hogwarts Express

A train to carry 1,000 students would need to be at least 20 carriages
long (based on a BritRail model), not including any room for student
luggage.   But, could the Hogwarts Express have an internal
space-enlarging charm like the Weasleys' car?   Is it possible that not
all Hogwarts students arrive at Hogwarts via the Hogwarts Express from
King's Cross in London (it might not make sense for students coming from
Scotland to go to King's Cross station in London, only to return to
Scotland)?  See "Hogwarts Express" below.

20 Broomsticks/20 Cauldrons/20 Earmuffs

Harry's year must include fewer than the 143 students that would make up
a normal class-size if there are 7 years of students and a total student
population of 1,000 students.  When Harry and his fellow Gryffindors
have double potions with the Slytherins, there are 20 cauldrons.
Similarly, when he and the Gryffindors take flying lessons with the
Slytherins, there are 20 broomsticks.  When Harry and his fellow
Gryffindors have double herbology with the Hufflepuffs, there are 20
pairs of earmuffs when they work with the mandrakes in CoS.  Many
members have concluded that unless there are a hugely disproportionate
population of Ravenclaws (110 or more) in Harry's year, his class-size
is considerably smaller than 143 students.  It seems that there are
roughly 10 students in each of Slytherin and Hufflepuff and 8 (or 10)
Gryffindors for Harry's year.

If his year is disproportionately small, are there still 1,000 students
at Hogwarts during these years (are the other 6 years larger than
average) or are there more like 800 students when there would normally
be 1,000?

Some members like the theory that Gryffindor and Slytherin Houses are
smaller as there are "more people who do the work than get the glory (or
notoriety in the case of the Slytherins)."   But, there are still only
roughly 10 Hufflepuffs in Harry's year, based on the evidence of the 20
pairs of earmuffs in double Herbology.

There cannot be 5 students of each gender in each House for each year
though or the Sorting Ceremony would not make much sense (there can't be
quotas or the Sorting Hat couldn't evaluate a student's strengths,
weaknesses or desires in all cases).   But, if there are students who
would do equally well in more than one House, then perhaps the Sorting
Hat is using a quota system of sorts.

Limited Number of Teachers

There would need to be considerably more teachers than we've been
introduced to if there are 1,000 students at Hogwarts.  See "Teachers"
below for a reference of the 12 identified Hogwarts professors.  There
is only so much 12 teachers can do in a day unless they are all using
time-turners.   As one member calculated:

"If we accept that there are 1,000 students and agree that most of the
classes would have to be split into streams to make the numbers smaller,
McGonagall could be teaching 56+ classes per week, but it might be
approaching 100.  At an hour per lesson, that would be 13 hours of
teaching every weekday with no breaks for a catnap."

Others have argued that 12 teachers wouldn't be enough even if there
were only 300 students, and accordingly, we must have not been
introduced to all the teachers.   This has been countered with evidence
that 12 teachers could manage a student population of 300 students.

Point System

If there are 1,000 students, aren't the year-end accumulated point
totals for each House in SS (in the 400 points apiece range) quite low?

Harry's Point-of-View

Proponents of the small student population school of thought argue that
Harry's point of view (POV) and emotional state may affect the larger
numbers that are touted by those in favor of the larger student
population.  Though the Great Hall is described as seating "hundreds,"
they argue that Harry was nervous when being sorted and any number of
people would loom large to a nervous 11 year-old boy who didn't have
much previous exposure to large groups.   They argue that Harry, nervous
in the Quidditch match against Slytherin in PoA, sees 200 Slytherin
supporters when there could be far fewer.   Similarly, they point out
that the reference to "about 100 tables seating about 10 people each"
could be Harry's exaggerated viewpoint; he's nervous about leading off
the dancing (and even being at the Yule Ball after all).

Those who support the larger student numbers contend that Rowling, as
omniscient narrator, is relaying these facts, which are unaffected by
Harry's POV.

The Middle Range Student Population School of Thought

Some members favor a middle-ground approach.  They believe some of the
arguments advanced by the small number proponents and other arguments
advanced by those who believe there is a larger student population.
Having picked amongst the arguments advanced by those in the opposite
camps, they favor a student population of 450-600 students.

They also cite the following internal evidence:

Number of Carriages to Transport 2nd - 7th Year Students

The 2nd - 7th year students are transported from Hogsmeade Station to
Hogwarts via "about 100" carriages that hold up to 4 people apiece
(PoA).  If 400 students are 6/7 of the total, then the student
population is roughly 467 students.

The small number advocates argue that the carriages don't all hold 4
students each (Harry, Ron and Hermione do not have a 4th student in
their carriage).  Some of the carriages might also be used to transport
luggage.

Those in favor of a larger student population conjecture that not all
students arrive at Hogsmeade Station at the same time (or via the
Hogwarts Express).


The Large Student Population School of Thought

The proponents of a student population ranging from 650 - 1000 students
cite the following internal evidence to support their arguments.

Size of the Castle; Busy Corridors

The castle is described as "huge" or "enormous" (vast).  The corridors
are described as "busy" and oftentimes "filled with students"
(crowded).  If there were only 300 students and the castle is really as
vast as it sounds, there wouldn't be nearly enough students to create
busy, crowded corridors.

Why would Ron think it was possible for Colin Creevy and Ginny Weasley
(both Gryffindors and both in the same year) to not meet each other if
there are a small number of students?

But, if there are 250 Gryffindors (per 1000 students in total), the
members in favor of a smaller student population argue that the common
room would need to be absolutely enormous to allow Hermione room to
spread her homework out over several tables.  They also wonder how the
common room would ever be deserted if there were 250 Gryffindors (let
alone deserted as frequently as it seems to be for the
Harry/Hermione/Ron trio).

The small number theorists also argue that maybe the Castle is large
because it was created to serve a wizarding population that was much
larger 1,000 years ago.  This has been countered with the argument that
the Castle can change its size and space to fit current needs.

Size of the Great Hall

The Great Hall is described as seating "hundreds."  Some members argue
that 280 students wouldn't qualify as "hundreds."   Others insist that
Harry's POV could affect this description.

Quidditch Matches Crowd

The Quidditch stadium is described in SS as seating "hundreds."  Those
in favor of the larger student population point out that there were 200
Slytherin supporters dressed in green at the Gryffindor/Slytherin
Quidditch match in PoA, with the remaining 3/4 of the attendees
supporting Gryffindor.  They argue that there must be roughly 800
students for this to be the case.

The Quidditch matches are also described as crowded and full of fans.
300 students wouldn't ever make the stadium look "full," let alone
"crowded."   "Hundreds" of students are described as filling the stands
to watch the 3rd Task in GoF.  Are 300 students enough to qualify as
"hundreds"?   But, if there are 1,000 students, would the description
"hundreds" make sense, given that there are more people than students in
attendance (some family members, the judges, faculty members)?

Those in favor of a smaller student population argue that if there are
800 people in attendance, there is no evidence that all attendees are
students.  There could be alumni, faculty, parents or interested sports
fans (including Hogsmeade residents) attending the matches.  "Hundreds"
of seats wouldn't be enough to allow any alumni, parents, faculty or
Hogsmeade residents to ever attend a match if there were 1000 students.

Yule Ball Tables

At the Yule Ball in GoF, the Great Hall is described as having "about
100 tables seating about 12 people each."  Those favoring a large
student population argue that if there were only 300 students, there
would need to be at least 900 attendees who are not students.

Small number theorists cite Harry's POV as a possible explanation.

They also argue that "about 100 tables seating about 12 people each"
doesn't necessarily mean there were 1200 people in attendance.  But,
they argue that even if there were 1200 people in attendance, the Ball
was only open to 4th - 7th year students.  The maximum number of
students (assuming 100% 4th - 7th year attendance and that 10% of the
4th - 7th year students invited a younger student as their date) yields
650-700 students at most (assuming 12 BeauxBatons & 12 Durmstrang
students).  Accordingly, these members argue that the number of Yule
Ball tables does not support the 1,000 students population figure.

Underpopulated in Harry's Year

Members have speculated that perhaps Harry's year (and even the years
preceding him) is underpopulated due to a low birthrate (or
babies/children being killed) during the First Voldemort regime.  One
member has also put forth a "King Herod" theory (that perhaps Voldemort
killed a number of children or male children about Harry's age if there
was a prophecy that he would be defeated by a young child).

No Viable Wizarding Population if Smaller Student Population

Some members have extrapolated the wizarding population for the United
Kingdom and Ireland based on the student population numbers, and they
have concluded that a student population of 300 students would not yield
a viable wizarding population.  They point out that the wizarding
population must be reasonably large given the numbers of wizards
celebrating Voldemort's downfall in Chapter 1 of SS in Little Whinging,
Surrey and the fact that tickets to the Quidditch World Cup game were
"hard to come by" (with 100,000 available seats).  A student population
of 300 students wouldn't yield an overall population large enough to
support those figures.

These members also argue that the wizarding population must be larger
(12,000 - 15,000 wizards in the United Kingdom & Ireland, which requires
800 - 1,000 Hogwarts students) in order to support the high level of
economic activity described in the books (Gringotts, wizarding
commercial establishments in Diagon Alley, Knockturn Alley and
Hogsmeade, publishing ventures such as The Daily Prophet, Witch Weekly
and textbooks; professional Quidditch franchises, etc.).

Others have counted that if there are 300 Hogwarts students, this can
work out to a United Kingdom & Ireland wizarding population of roughly
10,000, which translates into a worldwide wizarding population of
4,000,000 (explaining the "hard to come by" seats for the Quidditch
World Cup). They also argue that there is other textual evidence that
the British wizarding population is relatively small and that 1,000
students wouldn't support the economic activities described either.

It has also been argued that Hogwarts may not be the only wizarding
school in the United Kingdom and Ireland (despite Rowling's statement on
this topic).  Accordingly, the extrapolated overall wizarding population
numbers would be incorrect if there are other wizarding schools or if
witches and wizards who are not accepted into Hogwarts are home-schooled
or apprenticed into trades.

Some members have cited the Preponderance of Evidence Theory for the
proposition that the best evidence of the student population may well be
the information we have about Harry's year (despite Rowling's
contradictory statement in an online chat).

Some members have concluded that perhaps Rowling simply did not work out
the details ahead of time, and the books will never be internally
consistent as far as this particular topic is concerned.   Others insist
that this is an extremely critical detail that Rowling must have worked
out in advance.  They just assume that she failed to be sure the numbers
were internally consistent throughout each book, but that she is not
wrong in saying that there are about 1,000 students at Hogwarts.   Most
members do hope that it might be addressed in a way that resolves the
conflicting evidence in one of the later books.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  9 16:23:19 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:23:19 -0000
Subject: Ron's school work
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOELODIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9dbqtn+gpl7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18455

Simon wrote:

> Near the end of PS (SS for some) 
there is a
> comment about exam results. This comment is something along the 
lines of, but as
> I said before my copy of PS is elsewhere: "With all the excitement 
they had
> forgotten that they were still to receive exam results. Hermione was 
top of the
> year, Harry and Ron had achieved good grades ..." The rest of the 
quote goes on
> about how Neville had passed with a good Herbology mark making up 
for a poor
> Potions one and that even though Crabbe was as thick as two short 
planks he had
> still managed to pass and so showing that you could not get 
everything you
> wished for.
> 
> If my memory has been hideously ruined by revision (it has been a 
fairly bad day
> and I seem to have zero attention span at the moment) then I am sure 
someone
> will correct me, or possibly someone will give the exact quote 
anyway, but I am
> fairly sure that though Ron is not top of the class he still does 
fairly well.

Sorry about your bad day, Dr. B--I hope it's improved as it's gone 
along.

You got it exactly right, except that the "two short planks" were your 
own invention--LOL!  Oh, and it's Crabbe who unfortunately 
passes.  Same difference.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------
 If only the hat had mentioned a house 
 for people who felt a bit queasy, 
 that would have been the one for him.
     --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May  9 16:43:29 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:43:29 -0000
Subject: PA 4, Prefects, Dreams, Eagle Owls, Animagi, Malfoys, 36-hour days
Message-ID: <9dbs3h+48mk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18456

Catherine wrote:

>Do they assume that Harry knows that Sirius is 
>believed to be responsible for James' and Lily's deaths?  Mr Weasley 
>asks him not to go after Sirius, so it seems so.

           * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
"Listen, I want you to give me your word--"
  "--that I'll be a good boy and stay in the castle?" said Harry 
gloomily.
  "Not entirely," said Mr. Weasley, who looked more serious than Harry 
had ever seen him.  "Harry, swear to me you won't go =looking= for 
Black."
  Harry stared.  "What?"
  There was a loud whistle.  Guards were walking along the train, 
slamming all the doors shut.
  "Promise me, Harry," said Mr. Weasley, talking more quickly still, 
"that whatever happens--"
  "Why would I go looking for someone I know wants to kill me?" said 
Harry blankly.
  "Swear to me that whatever you might hear--"  (PA 5)
           * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
  
It seems to me from this exchange that AW probably assumes Harry 
=doesn't= know.  Hence the "whatever you might hear"--he's afraid of 
what Harry will do if he does hear about it.

Devika wrote:

>Do you know for sure that there has to be both a boy and a girl 
prefect from 
each house? 

Darreder wrote:

>James and Lily was Head Boy and Girl in their 7 year.
>
>I am basing my idea on that.

There's one of each (Head Boy and Girl) in PA too (ch 5).

If prefects were like RAs (residence assistants--they go by various 
titles) in US colleges, I'd say you need at least one boy and girl in 
each house.  That's because RAs actually live on the hall with the 
students, and most halls are all men or all women.  Prefects don't 
seem to have the same kind of tasks as RAs, but if the girls and boys 
are in separate wings (the Gryffs seem to be in separate towers off 
the common room, boys up one, girls up another), it would seem that 
among the ~six prefects there ought to be at least one of each sex so 
they can sleep close to the students they're supposed to be keeping 
from having 3 a.m. pajama parties.

I'm afraid the odds are very high on Draco being a prefect, just 
because he's the only 5th year Slytherin boy we know by name who isn't 
a total moron.  This will either give Ron a chance to be insanely 
jealous (if he himself isn't a prefect) or insulted that he and Draco 
are alike in any way (if he is).

Andrea wrote:

>The dream Harry had about Quirrel's turban, though, I
>had interpreted as Voldemort purposely contacting
>Harry, trying to turn him without a direct
>confrontation.  I hadn't thought about it as Harry
>being a possible Seer...are there any other
>"prescient" dreams of Harry's you can name?

Interesting thought on the turban dream coming from V himself.  I had 
thought it might be less prescience than intuition--some unconscious 
part of Harry's mind senses that Voldemort is nearby and expresses 
itself in dreams.

I think that the dream he has in PA 13 (the one where he's following a 
silvery-white hoofed thing) seems prescient.  But again, depending on 
your views of intuition and dreams, this may be less prediction than 
an expression of deeply buried knowledge about his father and himself.

Or maybe we're being lulled into thinking we now know what that dream 
was about, and in fact it is a further clue and it will develop in 5, 
6, or 7 that he needs to track down a unicorn or a silvery white 
Centaur (Firenze?  he's a palomino, so his body is light brown and his 
hair is white-blond) or a flying horse...

Would the wizarding world think it odd for your average witch or 
wizard to have prophetic dreams?  I.e. if Harry's dreams are 
prescient, does that make him unusual?

Buccy wrote:

>Is there any significance to Eagle Owls. Malfoy owns one and the 
>message delivered to Voldemort was delivered by one. Did Moody/Crouch 
>use Malfoy's? Is this just insignificant fluff? 

Harry also sees an eagle owl coming toward the castle in GF when 
Hagrid's burying the bone ("The Madness of Mr. Crouch"?  don't have my 
book).  Rereading, I haven't been able to tie it in with an exact time 
Crouch Jr. and Voldemort would have been corresponding, but given the 
connotations JKR has laid on eagle owls (associations with Bad Dark 
Wizards), it gives that scene an appropriate sense of foreboding.  
Even if there doesn't turn out to be a plot point as specific as "the 
owl that took the message about Crouch's murder was Draco's," we'll 
know to prick up our ears whenever we see an eagle owl in future.

Florence wrote:

> (Who else had that Oh no! not another unregistered animagus feeling 
>when that was revealed?)

I didn't, but Rita is my limit.  Sirius/Peter/James was the first 
time, which established that there's such a thing as unregistered 
Animagi (much as CS established that there's such a thing as 
Polyjuice).  Then it was used as a major plot device with Rita (as PP 
was with Crouch Jr.).  If JKR used it again I'd be disappointed.

I know I'm already cutting her a bit of slack because we knew about 
Animagi, though not about the registration rule, before the S/P/J 
revelation--in fact from the very first chapter of the books.  So it's 
true, JKR had already pulled that rabbit out of a hat once, in PA, and 
I can see why it seemed overdone to you when she used it again with 
Rita.

Steve wrote:

> Just to set the record straight, Lucious and Narcissa were both in 
> Slytherin, according to Draco in SS, and therefore yes, they went to 
> Hogwarts.

In Madam Malkin's he says "I know I'll be in Slytherin, =all our 
family= have been" (emphasis added), which leaves open the possibility 
that various family members didn't go to Hogwarts.  Narcissa sounds 
like a Greek name, don't you think?  <g>

>--Ebony (who wants to picket heaven for a 36-hour day... 24 just 
isn't 
>enough to get everything done!)

=Zap= Your wish is granted.  All days are henceforth 36 hours long.  
However, in order not to disrupt the current planetary arrangements, 
days will alternate between beginning at midnight and beginning at 
noon, and the average US lifespan will be approximately 50 years 
(18,250 days) rather than 75 (27,375 days).  Sorry about that.

;-)
Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
 "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
 "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------




From hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu  Wed May  9 16:59:29 2001
From: hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu (Paul W. Hanbury, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:59:29 -0000
Subject: Snape's love
In-Reply-To: <9d9jvq+5dt8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dbt1h+svir@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18457

Catherine wrote:
> I think you are right in that there is something about Snape - and 
> that he is going to surprise us.  

When I read this, my brain rushed immediatley to the movie "There's 
Something About Mary".  If Snape plays Mary's role, who is the Brett 
Favre of the wizarding world?  Viktor Krum?  Or, perhaps more to his 
own generation, Ludo Bagman?

But, I am a shipper of no sort, so I am sorry that I brought it up.  
Especially considering that Snape is not nearly as popular as Mary 
was (at school, not in this group), I'll digress...

Catherine continued:
> However, I am not sure, although I 
> agree that it is likely, that it is wholly to do with some kind of 
> love interest which has gone wrong etc.  I think that the way he is 
> stems from some time earlier than this.  

Perhaps the love (or lack of love) in his past is not or a romantic 
type, but of the sort between a parent and child.  I wonder if 
Snape's father was much like Barty Crouch, Sr.--a stickler to the 
rules who spent little time with his son.  Like Barty Crouch, Jr., 
this sort of relationship pushed him toward the "dark side" and the 
Death Eaters, but something happened in his life (or being) that, 
unlike BC Jr., made him rethink his choices.  

Maybe there was a romance in his life after all.  This could possibly 
be why he turned out so different from BC Jr.  This relationship 
would have been long enough that he left the DEs for it and that when 
it ended he was scorned and bitter.

If I had I point, I think that I refuted it enough to make me wonder 
on which side of the "Snape love fence" I stand.   Hmmm...

Catherine also wrote:
> I have been intrigued by the reports of Snape as a student.  
> Turning up at Hogwarts knowing more curses/hexes/dark arts than any 
> 6th year students I find particularly interesting.  Where did he 
> learn this from?  Who are his parents?  What kind of background 
> does he come from?  

Did he spens some time attending Durmstrang?  Did he know Karkaroff 
before he becam a death eater?  Is there any cannon evidence that 
specifies otherwise?

Catherine went on saying:
> The Marauders make him out to be a very unpopular character, 
> so in this he differs from Draco, who is at least popular with his 
> own housemates.   This may be the Marauders' POV.  

Perhaps he was very much like Draco is, only without the wealth and 
family influence.  For example, would Draco have been chaser for 
Slytherin had his father not provided the funds for new brooms?  How 
else does Lucius provide money to Slytherin, keeping Draco in his 
housemates' favor?






From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Wed May  9 09:05:28 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen Dei)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:05:28 +0200
Subject: Draco Sinister and Draco Veritas
References: <9d65qh+m2k8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006701c0d8ab$7fa37580$d8a474d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 18458

Sorry, I am new and still exploring the pages at Yahoo about this wonderful group.  Uh, where does one find Draco Sinister and Draco Veritas?  Most likely I stepped on it ten times in the process of trying to find my way about...  Thank you so much!

Lumen Dei
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cassandraclaire at mail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 2:52 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hi & An Explanation (sorry for the semi-crosspost)


  Hi - this is actually coming from Heidi, who, at Cassie's request, is 
  sending a note to the list to explain about the upcoming delay before 
  the final chapter of Draco Sinister (DS) and the start of the third 
  part of the trilogy, Draco Veritas (DV).

  Cassie is moving across the country, and while she will have 
  occasional computer access, she's pretty much offline for the next 
  few weeks. She doesn't have enough computer access to write the story 
  in uploadable form, or even to check and respond to emails or offers 
  of wonderful fanart. 

  If you emailed her in the past 4 weeks and she hasn't responded, 
  that's why.  

  She is, however, writing bits and pieces of DS15 in longhand while 
  she's offline. And if it's a real emergency, you can email me at 
  heidit at netbox.com and I'll let her know. 

  heidi, on cassie's behalf


  _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

  All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.

  Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

  (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed May  9 17:13:35 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:13:35 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco Sinister and Draco Veritas
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F5E@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18459

for various reasons, many of which are my fault, Cassie's page listing her
fics is not searchable at present, but you can find them at
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=Directory-AuthorProfile&UserID=15
808 or at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty along with
Paradigm of Uncertainty & its sequel & prequel

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lumen Dei [mailto:lumen_dei at freeler.nl]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:05 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco Sinister and Draco Veritas
> 
> 
> Real-To:  "Lumen Dei" <lumen_dei at freeler.nl>
> 
> Sorry, I am new and still exploring the pages at Yahoo about 
> this wonderful group.  Uh, where does one find Draco Sinister 
> and Draco Veritas?  Most likely I stepped on it ten times in 
> the process of trying to find my way about...  Thank you so much!
>



From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May  9 17:54:40 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 17:54:40 -0000
Subject: PA 4, Prefects, Dreams, Eagle Owls, Animagi, Malfoys, 36-hour days
In-Reply-To: <9dbs3h+48mk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dc090+ghll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18460

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> Steve wrote:
> 
> > Just to set the record straight, Lucious and Narcissa were both 
in 
> > Slytherin, according to Draco in SS, and therefore yes, they went 
to 
> > Hogwarts.
> 
> In Madam Malkin's he says "I know I'll be in Slytherin, =all our 
> family= have been" (emphasis added), which leaves open the 
possibility 
> that various family members didn't go to Hogwarts

Oh, good grief. I just edited the Lexicon to put them in Slytherin. 
Now I suppose I'll have to go edit it again. On the other hand, 
judging by the way JKR seems to work with this stuff, I'd say that 
the quote really does mean that L & N were in Slytherin. I'm leaving 
it that way in the Lexicon, I think. 

To paraphrase Dennis Moore (Monty Pyton) "Blimey! This Lexicon stuff 
is trickier than I thought!"

Steve




From deeblite at home.com  Wed May  9 18:27:47 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 14:27:47 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Student population at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <9dbmgd+89uq@eGroups.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010509103655.00a3c080@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010509142638.015fe8f0@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18461

At 03:07 PM 5/9/01 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote:
> > I don't know if this has been discussed here before or not, but I
>know it
> > has been in the alt.fan.harry-potter newsgroup.
> >
> > Has anybody figured out the approximate number of students that
>attend
> > hogwarts
>
>This has been debated and debated over and over again. If you want to
>read a nice concise article on the subject that covers pretty much
>all the territory we've covered, check out this page of the Lexicon:
>
>http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_howmany.html
>
>Feel free to pass that URL on to the folks on that newsgroup.
>
>I have a feeling that most people on this list would rather not go
>back into it. This subject has come up several times and each time
>we've walked over the same ground in infinite detail. Check the
>archives if you want to follow those discussions, by all means.


Ok thanks I didn't know it had already been covered. And those archives are 
extremely intimidating..
as fir the newsgroup- I no longer have access to it =\. That's what 
prompted me to join this group.




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 18:20:52 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:20:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <9dbl64+voem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010509182052.9611.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18462

--- Steve Vander Ark <vderark at bccs.org> wrote:
> Just a side note, I love the idea that he just might
> be the rich man 
> who owns the Riddle House, mentioned in GF1, who
> keeps it for tax 
> purposes, although no one can quite figure out what
> tax purposes 
> those might be. Hey, Lucious had Tom Riddle's old
> diary...maybe he 
> has Tom Riddle's grandparents' old house too. 

I *love* that idea!  

> And then, with that in mind and since we know that
> wizards live 
> longer than Muggles, maybe Lucious was one of those
> "closest friends" 
> at Hogwarts to whom Tom Riddle was already known as
> Voldemort, fifty 
> years ago.

One problem with that - Draco says to "Crabbe" and
"Goyle" that the last time the Chamber was opened was
before his father's time.  So Lucius and Voldie
couldn't've been school chums.  
 


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From lizscford at aol.com  Wed May  9 19:25:52 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:25:52 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as teacher
Message-ID: <ff.60531f9.282af3c0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18463

> I'm a lurker.  I hardly have enough time to read all the posts....  hate to 
> comment on something that has already been said, but this one I had to 
> comment.   I am a teacher.  Granted, I have only been teaching two years, 
> but I look at Snape's attitude from a different perspecive.  
> 
> 1.  Yes, Snape does lose his temper a few times, but lets look at the 
> circumstances.  Harry (along with his friends) do tend to get into a lot of 
> trouble.  Going to Hogsmeade without permission, going into the forbidden 
> forest, just roaming around the school at night.  They are breaking school 
> rules.  More often than not, they don't receive punishment.  In fact the 
> Headmaster has saved them a couple times.  As a teacher who in theory was 
> trying to be fair and consistent in discipline (I'm not saying he is), this 
> would push me to my limit.  Also Snape has been fairly sure that Harry has 
> been responsible for events, such as Sirius's escape, and he can't prove 
> it, and is basicaly told he is crazy.  
> 
> 2.  As for playing favorites in his classroom, maybe his is just trying to 
> show how real life is.  I am constantly frustrated with students who have 
> no real value for life and death.  They look at movies about war (Saving 
> Private Ryan) and think it is fake.  One girl in my class actually laughed. 
>  Maybe wizard children are struggling with the same values.  Snape lived 
> through Voldemort's reign of terror and he sees students who are fascinated 
> with the "Boy who Lived", but have no thought of all the other 
> consequences.  How many people died trying to stop him, how many people are 
> now the same as Neville's parents?  Countless wizards fought and yet Harry 
> receives all the glory.  Maybe  Snape is just  trying to help his students 
> see outside the world of Harry.
> 
> 3.  Let's look long term.  Hypothetically, Snape may have figured that 
> Voldie wouldn't be dead forever.  Since he was a death eater he would know 
> about all the experiments Voldie was doing to become immortal.  Maybe he 
> knew he would have to take up the fight again and so he decided to stay in 
> character.  If he had to become a spy again how credible would he be if he 
> had befriended Harry, or was even fair to him?  On the outside he is evil, 
> but I think Harry is going to respect him as he sees how Voldemort will 
> pick his plans up where he left off.  
> 
> just my opinions
> Kris
> 
wow....
I'd just put Snape down as being a mean and evil teacher (not unlike some of 
mine...) but that does make a lot of sense.  Does he really need to be THAT 
nasty to get his point across though?

DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lizscford at aol.com  Wed May  9 19:30:21 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:30:21 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Reserving Order of the Phoenix ... when?
Message-ID: <44.da7807a.282af4cd@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18464

ok, In the UK it's easy and this is how it goes:
go to book shop a few weeks/ month before book is due out.
ask if you can reserve a copy...they'll ask for name and address etc etc
turn up to shop any thime after book is released and they will have reserved 
a copy for you.

It doesn't mean you get first pick, it means that when the books arrive at 
the shop they take out a number for people who reserved them...
that's how I've always done it anyway..

DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lizscford at aol.com  Wed May  9 19:55:54 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:55:54 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: # of Prefects
Message-ID: <d1.6558d37.282afaca@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18465

In a message dated 5/9/01 8:26:34 PM GMT Daylight Time, pennylin at swbell.net 
writes:


> :
> 
> > Hermione definitely, Draco probably, Dean sounds plauseable,
> > Ron has grade issues and so does Neville.
> 
> I don't think Ron has grade issues.  He & Harry are probably about the
> same as far as marks go - and the implications are that they are
> probably both above-average (or at least average, middle of the road
> students), not poor ones.  Neville similarly doesn't necessarily have
> grade issues.  As Simon pointed out, his outstanding herbology marks
> make up for his horrible marks in potions.  But, he probably does at
> least average or above-average in other courses.  Or, that's my
> impression anyway.

Neville sounds very much like one of my friends.  she is brilliant at Physics 
(A* student) but cannot do Chemistry while she is mediocre (sp?) at most of 
her other subjects.

I'd have to aggre with the 'Ron not having grade issues', the impression that 
I've laways been given is that he doesn't excel at any particular subject, 
but he also doesn't do really badly.

while we're on 'education' as a whole (and forgive me if this has been 
previously discussed)
Do wizards have primary schools where they can be taught maths and english 
etc?
In my opinion they must have them because the wizarding monetry system is 
complicated so they would need a basic grounding in mathematics (and also, 
for Harry and Ron's divination class it says that they had to measure angles 
of stars and planets...not entirely sure but I know I read something like 
that at one stage), and they musthave to learnt to read and write somewhere.
Fien,it could be argued that this is done by the parents at home but that 
just seems wrong somewhere along the line...
DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May  9 20:23:33 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:23:33 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #1 Results and Answers
Message-ID: <9dc905+mbvm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18466

The first week of the HP4GU contest has been truly exciting, as you 
are a very knowledgable and obsessed bunch.  However, not quite 
obsessed enough, as hardly anyone knew the answers to all ten 
questions.  The only one who got all of them right (and also knew the 
extra credit!) was Robin (lapislazuli63 at hotmail.com)

Now, while it is certainly possible that Robin broke the rules and 
looked in the books, I will assume that all of this trivia was in 
Robin's obsessed little head, hence I am immediately sending the poor 
soul a coupon good for a 20% discount for therapy at the Flying Ford 
Clinic in London.  (The coupon is also good for a discount on 
membership to Amandas 12-step program for HP fanatics, should Texas 
be closer.)

Several people got 8 or 9 questions right, including Amy Z., who 
missed only question #9 but not only knew the extra credit but also 
pointed out that the playwrights name, "Malecrit", means "badly-
written" in French.  Since Amy Z., as a card-carrying member of 
L.O.O.N. (the League of Obsessive Nitpickers), is beyond hope, she 
does not get one of the above coupons.

Elizabeth C. (nizbet_noni at hotmail.com) and bak42 at netzero.net got 8 
out of ten right.  And Amanda, who got 7 questions right, pointed out 
that the names of the characters in the play, GRENOUILLE and CRAPAUD, 
mean FROG and TOAD in French.  (Frog and Toad is a childrens book, 
right?)

Lots of other people participated, but I would especially like to 
thank the newbies for jumping into the fray.  People who have joined 
in the last 2 months or so who responded include: Cait Hunter, 
Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve, Andrea, Alake Fullmoon, and Nethilia de 
Lobo, all of whom have officially proved their fanaticism.

Oh, right, you want to know the answers.  Here they are:

1. What is the name of the school that Dudley Dursley goes to?

Smeltings

2. What language do Goblins speak?

Gobbledegook

3. What species of dragon is the smallest?

Peruvian Vipertooth

4. What's the subtitle of the book "Fowl or Foul?"

"A Study of Hippogriff Brutality"

5. On the night Harry's parents are killed, who does Professor 
McGonagall think is setting off shooting stars in Kent?

Dedalus Dingle

6. What's the difference between "parselmouth" and "parseltongue"?

"Parseltongue" is a language; "Parselmouth" is a person who can speak 
it.

7. One turn of the time-turner sends you how far back in time?

one hour

8. According to rumor, what type of creature guards the high-security 
vaults in Gringott's bank?

dragons

9. What is the remedy for a Swelling Solution?

Deflating Draft

10. Who is the playwright who penned these immortal lines?

   GRENOUILLE:  I cannot go with you to the market today, Crapaud.
   CRAPAUD:  But, Grenouille, I cannot carry the cow alone.
   GRENOUILLE:  You know, Crapaud, that I am to be Keeper this 
morning.  Who will stop the Quaffle if I do not?

Malecrit

EXTRA CREDIT:  What is the name of the play, in English and in French?

"H?las, Je me suis Transfigur? Les Pieds"
"Alas, I've Transfigured My Feet"

Remember, the next contest starts on Friday.  This one will be a 
creative contest, so sharpen those pencils, put on your black berets, 
and get those artistic juices flowing!

--Joywitch




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May  9 20:47:16 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 13:47:16 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore turns evil.
In-Reply-To: <9damsa+auhv@eGroups.com>
References: <20010509045313.E1BB312D31@postfix2.ofir.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010509134432.00dc9600@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18467

At 06:08 AM 5/9/01 +0000, *Lilith Morgana* wrote:
>We know so little about Dumbledore's past and during his 150 years
>lifetime he surely must have had the chances to turn to the wrong
>side?

Is it possible that he started out as a *supporter* of Grindelwald
and then turned spy, 'a la Snape?

>No, I don't know. Just a thought and now I should get back to my
>violently funny computer course...

I have a funny computer course too -- Every time my teacher says
Windows is the best OS, I go into hysterics...



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May  9 20:48:28 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 13:48:28 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plot hole - POV
In-Reply-To: <9daht2+cd1j@eGroups.com>
References: <9d8mvb+sgk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010509134753.00dcca10@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18468

At 04:43 AM 5/9/01 +0000, love2write_11098 at yahoo.com wrote:
>My guess is that Jo was forced to choose
>between the two, and she chose Rita (for whatever reason -- probably
>because she was more fun to write).

And by that time she had had some experience with the press...



                         -- Dave




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May  9 23:17:55 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <9dbpq2+b079@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010509231755.99027.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18469

> Excellent point. I'd forgotten that quote. I agree with you that 
> Lucius and Narcissa seem to be more or less contemporaries of Molly
> and Arthur, although I am not absolutely convinced that the
> Weasleys are that young. We'll see...
> 
> Steve

No, not Narcissa.  I'm sure Narcissa is a trophy and Lucius spent at
least a decade and a half checking out available females with the
proper bloodlines before making his selection.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Thu May 10 01:04:16 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:04:16 -0500
Subject: Teeny correction (was HP4GU Contest #1 Results and Answers)
References: <9dc905+mbvm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AF9E910.3B8DF241@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18470

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> And Amanda, who got 7 questions right, pointed out
> that the names of the characters in the play, GRENOUILLE and CRAPAUD,
> mean FROG and TOAD in French.  (Frog and Toad is a childrens book,
> right?)

Not me! I hadn't caught it myself, someone else on the list did, I was
regurgitating. Although I'd love to take the credit, it's a great catch.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu May 10 01:32:19 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:32:19 -0500
Subject: Videogram of trailer
Message-ID: <3AF9EFA2.5405F6DF@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18471

I forward the relevant bit from a message from Suzanne, owner and
operator of the best (in my opinion) Alan Rickman site on the web (URL
at the end for you fans). She has done the videogram thing for other
stuff, for the benefit of those of us who are techno-ignorant and can't
get the players to work and such, and now she's done the trailer. I
downloaded it, it took about 12 minutes, it works, I can see *and* hear
it with reasonable detail. So, thinking some of you might be interested,
here's her snippet.

<snip>
By the way, do they know (or did you tell them) that I have a Videogram
of the trailer that they can download and then play anytime?
<http://members.nbci.com/AlanRickman/video-gallery/HPstone-trailer.exe>
2 MB
 :-)

TTFN,
Suzanne
<end snip>

Her site is The Unofficial Alan Rickman Fan Page, to be found at
http://members.nbci.com/AlanRickman/
Regularly updated, lots of links, fun & active guestbooks.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From litalex at yahoo.com  Thu May 10 01:51:57 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 18:51:57 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's love
References: <9dbt1h+svir@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c0d8f3$cc35bbe0$e010eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 18472

Hello,

> Perhaps the love (or lack of love) in his past is not or a romantic
> type, but of the sort between a parent and child.  I wonder if
> Snape's father was much like Barty Crouch, Sr.--a stickler to the
> rules who spent little time with his son.  Like Barty Crouch, Jr.,
> this sort of relationship pushed him toward the "dark side" and the
> Death Eaters, but something happened in his life (or being) that,
> unlike BC Jr., made him rethink his choices.

Oh, I see definite potential in such a scenario.

> Maybe there was a romance in his life after all.  This could possibly
> be why he turned out so different from BC Jr.  This relationship
> would have been long enough that he left the DEs for it and that when
> it ended he was scorned and bitter.

Snape fell for James and it was enough to push him back to the "Light Side,"
but when James picked Lily instead... <g>.

Or at least many hp-slashers seem to think.  Could be Lily whom he fell for
and that's why Snape hates Harry.

> family influence.  For example, would Draco have been chaser for
> Slytherin had his father not provided the funds for new brooms?  How
> else does Lucius provide money to Slytherin, keeping Draco in his
> housemates' favor?

Draco is a seeker, like Harry <g>.  What I want to know is, where was the
old seeker to the Slytherin team, then?  Or was there one?  I really don't
think Draco can stay on if he isn't at least adequate.  Not spectacularly
good as Harry, but good.

little Alex




From noa.rensing at att.net  Thu May 10 03:52:23 2001
From: noa.rensing at att.net (noa.rensing at att.net)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 03:52:23 -0000
Subject: Student population at Hogwarts (Long!)
In-Reply-To: <3AF95D1E.3394F1ED@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9dd39n+o5sa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18473

Delurking just long enough to add a new (I think) point to an old 
discussion:

I think if the school-age population had been dwindeling, so that the 
number of students was usually 1000 but Harry's year only had 40, 
then Draco's insult to Ron about Weasley's "having more children than 
they could afford" would not be very effective. Draco might think it 
insulting, but to most of the wizarding population, having large 
families would be commendable.

I also have some trouble with the concept that Hogwarts is the only 
wizarding school in Britain. If it were, more of the grownups would 
know each other, and their families would socialize. Then Ron, at 
least, would know many of the other students. I see three options: he 
had no pre-Hogwarts wizarding friends, he didn't like his pre-
Hogwarts wizarding friends, or his pre-Hogwarts wizarding friends do 
not attend Hogwarts. 

Noa


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> As Steve says, we've discussed this in alot of detail in the past.  
The
> Lexicon site has a good synopsis.  
...
> 
> 
> Penny
> (
....
> 
> Underpopulated in Harry's Year
> 
> Members have speculated that perhaps Harry's year (and even the 
years
> preceding him) is underpopulated due to a low birthrate (or
> babies/children being killed) during the First Voldemort regime.  
One
> member has also put forth a "King Herod" theory (that perhaps 
Voldemort
> killed a number of children or male children about Harry's age if 
there
> was a prophecy that he would be defeated by a young child).
> 

....
> No Viable Wizarding Population if Smaller Student Population
> 
> Some members have extrapolated the wizarding population for the 
United
> Kingdom and Ireland based on the student population numbers, and 
they
> have concluded that a student population of 300 students would not 
yield
> a viable wizarding population.  
....
> It has also been argued that Hogwarts may not be the only wizarding
> school in the United Kingdom and Ireland (despite Rowling's 
statement on
> this topic).  Accordingly, the extrapolated overall wizarding 
population
> numbers would be incorrect if there are other wizarding schools or 
if
> witches and wizards who are not accepted into Hogwarts are home-
schooled
> or apprenticed into trades.
> 
> 




From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 06:06:17 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 06:06:17 -0000
Subject: Snape, Weasley and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <20010509231755.99027.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ddb4p+vkqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18474

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > Excellent point. I'd forgotten that quote. I agree with you that 
> > Lucius and Narcissa seem to be more or less contemporaries of 
Molly
> > and Arthur, although I am not absolutely convinced that the
> > Weasleys are that young. We'll see...
> > 
> > Steve
> 
> No, not Narcissa.  I'm sure Narcissa is a trophy and Lucius spent at
> least a decade and a half checking out available females with the
> proper bloodlines before making his selection.
> 
 
Exactly my opinion about Lucius. He's surely Arthur's age, if not 
older but Narcissa seems younger, at least in my imagination. I see 
them as one of these couples that build their relation on mutual 
agreements, bloodlines and families- and Lucius was most likely 
hunting for someone like her for ages.  

Lilith Morgana
------------------------
"I see no difference"
(Severus Snape)
------------------------




From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 06:57:19 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 06:57:19 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Daily Prophet and RITA SKEETER
Message-ID: <LAW2-F9Wwr2UAaTzvb50000281e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18475

Scott wrote:

>Is the Daily Prophet the only paper for British Wizards? I find it
>hard to believe that they have abosolutely no competition unless the
>British Wizard population is really small. I know most cities don't
>have but one or two major papers, but an entire country?

I think the Wizard population is really small - they only have one bank as 
well.
>
>Secondly this is the "Daily Prophet" and not the "Magical Quidnunc".
>It suprises me that what seems a reputable news organisation allows
>articles like Rita's to be printed. Wouldn't, shouldn't people
>realise that Rita's stuff is baloney and just not read it?

Rita's articles are a fairly accurate parody of British tabloid journalism.  
Worse things are printed every day :)
>
>I found it rather hard to believe that Mrs. Weasley so completely
>believed the article about Hermione. No wonder Hermione got all that
>horrible mail when someone who knows her well like Mrs. Weasley
>bought it immediately.
>
>Do most people not realise how low Rita is? Or are they just REALLY
>gullible?

I think that was JKR's point about this kind of press - it can influence the 
views of sensible people, especially if they don't apply their common sense. 
  Mrs W denies being influenced, but she is.  Also, she doesn't know 
Hermione *all* that well.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From danicav at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 07:19:24 2001
From: danicav at hotmail.com (Danica)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 07:19:24 -0000
Subject: DeLurking long enough to ask...
Message-ID: <9ddfds+il9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18476

Hello Group,

Though I must admitt, I have only read all of May's posts, and some 
of April's, I have not seen this question approached.  I haven't 
posted answers because I don't feel comfortable enough yet. :)

I see much converse about Snape evil/good and why he dislikes, but 
feels he must protect Harry.  Also, if he has gone back to V. in some 
way to assist in 'the cause' has anyone ever thought to ask...

Please allow my imagination...  That with the description JKR give 
Snape, black hair, twinkling eyes, strong features, etc.  Have any of 
you thought that... He is James' Brother?  I know, I know, but come 
on, just because we have sibling rivaleries doesnt mean we don't love 
our family members.

What do you think...

Kind Regards,
Danica
*Favorite characters are Snape, Hermione, Neville*




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Thu May 10 09:02:43 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:02:43 -0000
Subject: Snape, Weasley, Fudge and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <9ddb4p+vkqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ddlfj+amo3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18477

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > > Excellent point. I'd forgotten that quote. I agree with you 
that 
> > > Lucius and Narcissa seem to be more or less contemporaries of 
> Molly
> > > and Arthur, although I am not absolutely convinced that the
> > > Weasleys are that young. We'll see...
> > > 
> > > Steve
> > 
> > No, not Narcissa.  I'm sure Narcissa is a trophy and Lucius spent 
at
> > least a decade and a half checking out available females with the
> > proper bloodlines before making his selection.
> > 
>  
> Exactly my opinion about Lucius. He's surely Arthur's age, if not 
> older but Narcissa seems younger, at least in my imagination. I see 
> them as one of these couples that build their relation on mutual 
> agreements, bloodlines and families- and Lucius was most likely 
> hunting for someone like her for ages.  
> 

 I was wondering can anyone place Fudge in the Weasley/Malfoy 
timeline. I get the feeling that he wasn't in the same year as Arthur 
and Lucius (assuming that they were in the same year) as he doesn't 
seem to realise they dislike one another.
 For some reason I have the gut feeling that Fudge is younger than 
the other two but have no facts to back me up.
 Does anyone have any ideas?

 Jen 




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 09:57:27 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:57:27 -0000
Subject: Similar, but divergent characters (was Snape's love)
In-Reply-To: <9da0ui+am1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ddom7+md0u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18478

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lady.nymphaea at f... wrote:
> About Snape being similar to Hermione: it appears to me that Harry, 
> Ron, and Hermione all have similar "mirror" characters on 
the "other 
> side", if you will: Harry's obvious mirror being Tom Marvolo 
Riddle, 
> down to appearance and some of the family background (both orphans, 
> both from Muggle families from recently in the family tree). Harry, 
> unlike Tom, didn't resent his background and so far has been able 
to 
> overcome any supposed disadvantages from it. 
> 
> The mirrors for the other two are a bit less obvious, but just as 
> interesting. Hermione's mirror is Snape; at the beginning, she was 
> outcast from the rest of Hogwarts to the point of going to cry in 
the 
> toilet on Halloween. As Catherine said, both Snape and Hermione are 
> rules nuts. As for where Snape's and Hermione's paths diverged: 
> Hermione picked up great guys like Ron and Harry for friends soon 
in 
> her school career. Snape got in with a bunch of future Death 
Eaters. 
> The text isn't clear on how this group of 'friends' got along, and 
> whether or not Snape was best buddies with the bunch or just was on 
> the periphery of their circle. 
> 
> Ron's mirror is Draco. Both are from established wizarding 
> families; both tend to feud with each other both with words and 
wands 
> in much the same way. However, the main divergence is the amount of 
> money each family has, and the boys' reactions to it.
> 
> Meril

I agree with almost everything, except with this:

"As Catherine said, both Snape and Hermione are rules nuts. As for 
where Snape's and Hermione's paths diverged: Hermione picked up great 
guys like Ron and Harry for friends soon in her school career. Snape 
got in with a bunch of future Death Eaters."

When Snape entered Hogwarts he already knew more Dark Art stuff than 
most of the other students. He obviously had a leaning towards the 
dark side then. His having DE friends was a symptom, not a cause, of 
his leanings. In the same way, Hermione became friends with Harry and 
Ron BECAUSE (or, also because) she's on the good side, not the other 
way around. I don't think that Hermione needs any guidance in Light 
vs. dark Choices. Of the three, I'd say she has the strongest and 
most developed sense of right and wrong. 



Naama 


 






From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 10:41:13 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:41:13 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore turns evil.
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010509134432.00dc9600@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9ddr89+eqiv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18479

Interesting, and a nice point about spy within Grindlewald's circle.  
There are some canon evidence supporting Dumbledore with a dark past:

1. PS/SS Chapter 1. Dumbledore remarked that Voldemort possesses 
power that he would never have and McGonagall replied, 'It's only 
because you're too noble to use them.'

2. CoS. In the History of Magic class, a student said Dumbledore 
can't open the Chamber of Secret because some sort of dark art is 
required and Prof. Binn retorted, 'Just because a wizard doesn't use 
dark magic doesn't mean he can't.'

3. Dumbledore loves to give people a second chance? Why? Is that 
because someone once gave him a second chance?

Dumbledore's character would certainly have more depth if he was once 
associated with the dark art.  For example, the scene in the 
Pensieve. Dumbledore, while defending Snape, said, 'He's now no more 
a Death eater than I am.'  If Dumbledore has any sort of past 
associations with the Dark arts, then this statement very poignant 
and now has an additional meaning -- 'Look at me, I turn from the 
dark side and I trust him to pull through as well.'





From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 11:02:09 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:02:09 -0000
Subject: Similar, but divergent characters (was Snape's love)
In-Reply-To: <9ddom7+md0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ddsfh+dblu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18480

May be Hermione the rules nut is not the best example.  How about a 
parallel of Snape and the other rules nut in the present generation --
 Percy Weasley.

Percy fits better with the description of 'rules nut, strong desire 
to be the teacher's pet'.  Hermione, at times, allows rules to be 
broken or at least, bend.  Percy, on the other hand, seems to think 
that rules are absolute.

Percy is also ambitious and tends to take himself too seriously.  He 
is constantly teased by his popular brothers.  In fact, everyone in 
his family, except Molly, think of him as a bit of a joke, despite 
being Head Boy, excelling academically and professionally.  Would 
Percy really turn his brothers in?  He doesn't seem to have much 
bitterness right now but could it be that he just bottles it up 
inside, waiting to explode?

The only divergent between them is Percy comes from a happy, close 
family whereas Snape's family is still a mystery.






From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 11:35:45 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth C)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:35:45 +1000
Subject: Wizard Uni - Myrtle
Message-ID: <F132UcOV1EetVoMDrxx000006d3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18481

I've just got a few little things that've been wondering around in my head 
that don't seem to fit into any of the current discussions, so I'm just 
going to put them all here.

Firstly, I think that there *are* higher education institutions in the 
wizarding world, that Hogwarts etc are not the be-all-and-end-all of 
learning. Maybe not universitys as such, but training centers for 
professors, wand-makers, etc. Plus maybe more uni-like places for academics 
to study and get their Bachelors of Magic, Masters of DADA etc. My main (ok, 
only) piece of canon to support this is in PoA where it is said that Percy 
is studying for his N.E.W.T's, "the highest qualification Hogwarts offered" 
(paraphrased). To me, this seems to suggest that there are higher 
qualifications to be gained, but Hogwarts doesn't offer them. I'm of the 
opinion that if N.E.W.T's are the highest wizarding qualifications of all, 
it would read "the highest qualifications offered", with no mention of 
Hogwarts.

Also, I just reread CoS, and I realized for the first time how Ron suggests 
that TM Riddle might have murdered Moaning Myrtle - 'that would have done 
everyone a favour' - because, of course, he DID.

Lizzy
wishing she went to Hogwarts. Uni sucks.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 11:47:20 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:47:20 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore turns evil.
In-Reply-To: <9ddr89+eqiv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ddv48+93nd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18482

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:

> 
> 3. Dumbledore loves to give people a second chance? Why? Is that 
> because someone once gave him a second chance?
> 
> Dumbledore's character would certainly have more depth if he was 
once 
> associated with the dark art.  For example, the scene in the 
> Pensieve. Dumbledore, while defending Snape, said, 'He's now no 
more 
> a Death eater than I am.'  If Dumbledore has any sort of past 
> associations with the Dark arts, then this statement very poignant 
> and now has an additional meaning -- 'Look at me, I turn from the 
> dark side and I trust him to pull through as well.'

Exactly! It would make Dumbledore not only more human but also more 
belieable as a character AND a good role model for the readers. If 
he- the greatest of all wizards- once made a big mistake but managed 
to turn out well in the end, everyone could at least try. I love that 
idea and I also think that the reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape so 
much doesn't have to be some drastic thing, it could be this tad of 
recognisation that makes him willing to give Snape a second chance. 
Not only Snape for that matter- Albus Dumbledore is well known for 
his second chances and it most certainly could have something to do 
with the fact that someone, somewhere in his very mysterious past, 
gave him one. 

Oh, the depth of the meaning above would be very strong if this is 
true. Beacause everyone trusts Dumbledore, everyone believes in his 
goodness and intelligence and they do this despite his past. 

says,

Lilith Morgana

-------------------
Don't upset my calculations!
------------------- 




From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 11:51:56 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:51:56 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore turns evil.
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010509134432.00dc9600@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9ddvcs+9ic3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18483

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 06:08 AM 5/9/01 +0000, *Lilith Morgana* wrote:
> >We know so little about Dumbledore's past and during his 150 years
> >lifetime he surely must have had the chances to turn to the wrong
> >side?
> 
> Is it possible that he started out as a *supporter* of Grindelwald
> and then turned spy, 'a la Snape?

That was my thought, yes. I think it could have happened.
> 
> >No, I don't know. Just a thought and now I should get back to my
> >violently funny computer course...
> 
> I have a funny computer course too -- Every time my teacher says
> Windows is the best OS, I go into hysterics...

*lol* And every time my teachers tell me about the importance of 
Microsoft Access I go nuts and starts hammering my computer with a cd-
rom...

Lilith Morgana
--------------------
Don't upset my calculations!
--------------------
> 
> 
> 
>                          -- Dave




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Thu May 10 11:53:26 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:53:26 -0000
Subject: Student population at Hogwarts (Long!)
In-Reply-To: <3AF95D1E.3394F1ED@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9ddvfm+jrh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18484

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
<snipped - huge dissitation on Hogwarts student population>

Hey, that was great, but it didn't tie in with my long held view on 
this, so here it is:

I don't believe the houses are equally sized.  Some of the quirkier 
English public schools (really top-notch private schools) have house 
systems where the houses are not equally sized.  I've always viewed 
Gryffindor as being one of the smaller houses (no evidence for this 
except for the small numbers in Harry's year).

There must also be huge demographic fluctuations with such a small 
wizarding community so that each year group will have a different 
number of students in it, as well as the sorting arrangement leading 
to different proportions of each year group being in each house each 
year.

When comments like "We've got double Potions with the Slytherins next" 
are made, that does not necessarily mean all the Slytherins.  If the 
school aims for class sizes of approximately 20, and there are 
(approx) 10 Griffindors, 30 Slytherins, 30 Hufflepuffs and 20 or 40 
Ravenclaws, then the Griffindors will share classes with some of the 
Slytherins and some of the Hufflepuffs for some lessons (but never 
Ravenclaw).  For timetabling reasons it would end up being the same 
group of Slytherins they shared with (so Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle 
always show up).  I've always rationalised the 1000 students statement 
this way, but it's always bothered me there aren't enough teachers - 
ahh well!

Florence.



 




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu May 10 14:27:46 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:27:46 -0000
Subject: Wizard Uni - Myrtle
In-Reply-To: <F132UcOV1EetVoMDrxx000006d3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9de8h2+g7sv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18485

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
> I've just got a few little things that've been wondering around in 
my head 
> that don't seem to fit into any of the current discussions, so I'm 
just 
> going to put them all here.
> 
> Firstly, I think that there *are* higher education institutions in 
the 
> wizarding world, that Hogwarts etc are not the be-all-and-end-all 
of 
> learning. Maybe not universitys as such, but training centers for 
> professors, wand-makers, etc. Plus maybe more uni-like places for 
academics 
> to study and get their Bachelors of Magic, Masters of DADA etc. My 
main (ok, 
> only) piece of canon to support this is in PoA where it is said 
that Percy 
> is studying for his N.E.W.T's, "the highest qualification Hogwarts 
offered" 
> (paraphrased). To me, this seems to suggest that there are higher 
> qualifications to be gained, but Hogwarts doesn't offer them. I'm 
of the 
> opinion that if N.E.W.T's are the highest wizarding qualifications 
of all, 
> it would read "the highest qualifications offered", with no mention 
of 
> Hogwarts.
> 
> Also, I just reread CoS, and I realized for the first time how Ron 
suggests 
> that TM Riddle might have murdered Moaning Myrtle - 'that would 
have done 
> everyone a favour' - because, of course, he DID.
> 
> Lizzy
> wishing she went to Hogwarts. Uni sucks.
> 
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu May 10 14:33:58 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:33:58 -0000
Subject: Dobby, Winky and the Office for House-Elf Relocation
Message-ID: <9de8sm+ja3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18486

I was reading Newt Scamander's biography in "Fantastic Beasts". It 
mentioned that he worked in the Office for House-Elf Relocation in 
the Department for Regulation and Control of Magical Beasts. 

If there is such an office in the Ministry, why didn't Dobby go there 
after he was freed by Lucius Malfoy? Wouldn't the Office have 
relocated Dobby? Also, Wicky was the house-elf of Crouch Sr., 
wouldn't she have gone to the Office for House-Elf Relocation (OHER)
after she was freed? Or is the OHER a dubious Ministry Office 
that "relocates" House-Elves by enslaving them to other families?

:-)Milz




From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Thu May 10 15:10:41 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:10:41 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Student population at Hogwarts (Long!)
Message-ID: <20010510140007.590EA131C7@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18487

How CAN the houses be of similar size, considering the method of selection?

Darreder

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com =====
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
>wrote:
><snipped - huge dissitation on Hogwarts student population>
>
>Hey, that was great, but it didn't tie in with my long held view on
>this, so here it is:
>
>I don't believe the houses are equally sized.  Some of the quirkier
>English public schools (really top-notch private schools) have house
>systems where the houses are not equally sized.  I've always viewed
>Gryffindor as being one of the smaller houses (no evidence for this
>except for the small numbers in Harry's year).
>
>There must also be huge demographic fluctuations with such a small
>wizarding community so that each year group will have a different
>number of students in it, as well as the sorting arrangement leading
>to different proportions of each year group being in each house each
>year.
>
>When comments like "We've got double Potions with the Slytherins next"
>are made, that does not necessarily mean all the Slytherins.  If the
>school aims for class sizes of approximately 20, and there are
>(approx) 10 Griffindors, 30 Slytherins, 30 Hufflepuffs and 20 or 40
>Ravenclaws, then the Griffindors will share classes with some of the
>Slytherins and some of the Hufflepuffs for some lessons (but never
>Ravenclaw).  For timetabling reasons it would end up being the same
>group of Slytherins they shared with (so Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle
>always show up).  I've always rationalised the 1000 students statement
>this way, but it's always bothered me there aren't enough teachers -
>ahh well!
>
>Florence.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, 
to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read 
and those they don't.
>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! 
For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
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From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Thu May 10 15:10:41 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:10:41 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Student population at Hogwarts (Long!)
Message-ID: <20010510140007.55E68131C3@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18488

How CAN the houses be of similar size, considering the method of selection?

Darreder

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com =====
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
>wrote:
><snipped - huge dissitation on Hogwarts student population>
>
>Hey, that was great, but it didn't tie in with my long held view on
>this, so here it is:
>
>I don't believe the houses are equally sized.  Some of the quirkier
>English public schools (really top-notch private schools) have house
>systems where the houses are not equally sized.  I've always viewed
>Gryffindor as being one of the smaller houses (no evidence for this
>except for the small numbers in Harry's year).
>
>There must also be huge demographic fluctuations with such a small
>wizarding community so that each year group will have a different
>number of students in it, as well as the sorting arrangement leading
>to different proportions of each year group being in each house each
>year.
>
>When comments like "We've got double Potions with the Slytherins next"
>are made, that does not necessarily mean all the Slytherins.  If the
>school aims for class sizes of approximately 20, and there are
>(approx) 10 Griffindors, 30 Slytherins, 30 Hufflepuffs and 20 or 40
>Ravenclaws, then the Griffindors will share classes with some of the
>Slytherins and some of the Hufflepuffs for some lessons (but never
>Ravenclaw).  For timetabling reasons it would end up being the same
>group of Slytherins they shared with (so Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle
>always show up).  I've always rationalised the 1000 students statement
>this way, but it's always bothered me there aren't enough teachers -
>ahh well!
>
>Florence.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, 
to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read 
and those they don't.
>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! 
For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 15:07:48 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:07:48 -0000
Subject: Slyth. Seeker - Fudge - Grenouille & Crapaud
Message-ID: <9deas4+tpph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18489

little Alex queried:

>What I want to know is, where was the old seeker to the Slytherin 
team, then?  Or was there one?

The Slytherin Seeker in PS/SS was Terence Higgs.  Perhaps he 
graduated?  We never hear of him again.

Jenfold wrote:

> For some reason I have the gut feeling that Fudge is younger than 
>the other two [Arthur, Lucius] but have no facts to back me up.
> Does anyone have any ideas?

The only things I know to help us pinpoint Fudge's age are that he was 
a junior minister in the MOM at the time Sirius was sent to Azkaban 
(PA 10); and he can't have been =too= new there, because within a 
couple of years he was Minister of Magic (GF, "Padfoot Returns").  So 
it's a safe bet he's several years older than MWPP, but beyond that, 
who knows?  

In my imagination, Arthur is ~50 in GF, Lucius perhaps a little 
younger, Fudge about the same age as Lucius (perhaps 46? in GF, making 
him about 34 when he became Minister--my, that seems young).  I have 
no canon info to back this up, however, other than our having 

-a minimum age for the senior Weasleys of about 41 in GF, probably 
quite a bit older (this is calculated from Bill's age--I take Bill to 
be about 14 years older than Ron, but there's a lot of wiggle room 
there),   

-and a maximum one for Lucius, who started school no earlier than 
1943 (the year after the Chamber of Secrets was opened) and probably 
quite a bit later than that, going by CS 12: "before his time, =of 
course="; the "of course" suggests it isn't even close.

Joywitch wrote:

> And Amanda, who got 7 questions right, pointed out
> that the names of the characters in the play, GRENOUILLE and 
CRAPAUD,
> mean FROG and TOAD in French.  (Frog and Toad is a childrens book,
> right?)

Amanda wrote:

>Not me! I hadn't caught it myself, someone else on the list did, I 
was
>regurgitating. Although I'd love to take the credit, it's a great 
catch.

It was me.  =Now= do I get 20% off at the Flying Ford Clinic?  Heaven 
knows I need their services.

Amy Z
hoping she isn't beyond hope

--------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning 
 down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?"
   "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical
 whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign
 that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ."
                                      -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 15:20:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:20:35 -0000
Subject: Myrtle, Ron's Seeing
In-Reply-To: <F132UcOV1EetVoMDrxx000006d3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9debk3+4ual@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18490

Lizzy wrote:
 
> Also, I just reread CoS, and I realized for the first time how Ron 
suggests 
> that TM Riddle might have murdered Moaning Myrtle - 'that would have 
done 
> everyone a favour' - because, of course, he DID.

Yup, Ron's a nascent Seer if you ask me.  
 
> Lizzy
> wishing she went to Hogwarts. Uni sucks.

That's a shame.  Can you quit for now and go later when you'll enjoy 
it?

Amy Z
who'll be paying off her educational loans for the next 25 years, so 
it's a good thing she enjoyed the classes (but who still would've 
rather gone to Hogwarts)




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu May 10 15:32:34 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:32:34 -0000
Subject: Student population at Hogwarts (Long!)
In-Reply-To: <20010510140007.55E68131C3@postfix2.ofir.com>
Message-ID: <9decai+244n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18491

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tim Kronsell <timkronsell2 at o...> wrote:
> How CAN the houses be of similar size, considering the method of 
selection?
> 
> Darreder
> 
> >===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at y... =====
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...>
> >wrote:
> ><snipped - huge dissitation on Hogwarts student population>
> >
> >Hey, that was great, but it didn't tie in with my long held view on
> >this, so here it is:
> >
> >I don't believe the houses are equally sized.  Some of the quirkier
> >English public schools (really top-notch private schools) have 
house
> >systems where the houses are not equally sized.  I've always viewed
> >Gryffindor as being one of the smaller houses (no evidence for this
> >except for the small numbers in Harry's year).
> >
> >There must also be huge demographic fluctuations with such a small
> >wizarding community so that each year group will have a different
> >number of students in it, as well as the sorting arrangement 
leading
> >to different proportions of each year group being in each house 
each
> >year.
> >
> >When comments like "We've got double Potions with the Slytherins 
next"
> >are made, that does not necessarily mean all the Slytherins.  If 
the
> >school aims for class sizes of approximately 20, and there are
> >(approx) 10 Griffindors, 30 Slytherins, 30 Hufflepuffs and 20 or 40
> >Ravenclaws, then the Griffindors will share classes with some of 
the
> >Slytherins and some of the Hufflepuffs for some lessons (but never
> >Ravenclaw).  For timetabling reasons it would end up being the same
> >group of Slytherins they shared with (so Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle
> >always show up).  I've always rationalised the 1000 students 
statement
> >this way, but it's always bothered me there aren't enough 
teachers -
> >ahh well!
> >
> >Florence.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> >
> >All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter 
YahooGroup, 
> to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they 
want to read 
> and those they don't.
> >
> >Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, 
point your 
> cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to 
join now! 
> For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
> hpforgrownups-owner at y...
> >
> >(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...)
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
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From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 10 15:34:28 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:34:28 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts population again
Message-ID: <9dece4+gsnq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18492

One really cool thing about this group is that just when I think we 
have talked something to death, someone comes up with a new 
perspective.  

I liked Florence's suggestion that the houses other than Gryffindor 
are larger and that they are broken up into several groups.  So, 
maybe Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy Parkinson, etc. are in the 
Slytherin 1 group, who are scheduled for potions with the Gryffindors 
while the Slytherin 2 group has Herbology with the Ravenclaw 3 
group.  It would be easier, for scheduling purposes, NOT to divide 
students this way and to have the students in each class come from 
one house, but perhaps Dumbledore has done this in order to encourage 
more communication between the students of each house.  As Darreder 
points out, given that students are placed in their Houses based on 
their inner characteristics, it seems impossible that the House COULD 
be the same size.

On the other hand, I have five fingers, as my father always says.  
No, really though, even the logic of Florence's argument does not 
eliminate some of the other problems including, as she points out, 
that there are just not enough teachers unless they all use time-
turners and work 30 hours a day or something.  And there would still 
have to be about 140 students per year to make up a student body of 
1000, even if only 10 of the 140 went to Gryffindor.  Even if each 
student took only an average of 30 seconds to get sorted, the sorting 
ceremony would be over an hour long.  And wouldn't the Gryffindor 
table be noticeably shorter?

I think the most likely explanation is the JKR is one of those people 
whose sense of numbers is not very good.  I have taught and tutored 
math to many, many people, and this is very common.  I think there is 
other evidence for this, which I will comment on some other time.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*





From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 10 15:46:12 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:46:12 -0000
Subject: Wizard Uni - Myrtle
In-Reply-To: <F132UcOV1EetVoMDrxx000006d3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ded44+rmef@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18493

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:

> Firstly, I think that there *are* higher education institutions in 
the 
> wizarding world, that Hogwarts etc are not the be-all-and-end-all 
of 
> learning. Maybe not universitys as such, but training centers for 
> professors, wand-makers, etc. 

I, too, find it hard to imagine that there aren't wizard centers of 
higher learning.  The evidence against it seems to be mainly that JKR 
has said there are no wizard universities and that Percy Weasley, an 
academic-oriented person if there ever was one, goes directly from 
Hogwarts to a job in the MOM.

Of course, just because JKR has said something doesn't mean we 
believe her (after all, it's only her universe) as evidence by The 
Great Population Debate.  

And maybe bureaucrats don't need any more training, but other types 
of wizards do, so there are, as Elizabeth suggested, vocational 
training centers, or at least apprenticeships?  Maybe thats what 
Charlie is doing in Romania -- an internship at the Center for Dragon 
Studies.

This one really bugs me.  How could a community which produces 
periodicals like "The Journal of Transfiguration" NOT have any 
academic institutions higher than secondary schools?



      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*





From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 10 15:52:41 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:52:41 -0000
Subject: Dobby, Winky and the Office for House-Elf Relocation
In-Reply-To: <9de8sm+ja3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dedg9+t94t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18494

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> I was reading Newt Scamander's biography in "Fantastic Beasts". It 
> mentioned that he worked in the Office for House-Elf Relocation in 
> the Department for Regulation and Control of Magical Beasts. 
> 
> If there is such an office in the Ministry, why didn't Dobby go 
there 
> after he was freed by Lucius Malfoy? Wouldn't the Office have 
> relocated Dobby? Also, Wicky was the house-elf of Crouch Sr., 
> wouldn't she have gone to the Office for House-Elf Relocation (OHER)
> after she was freed? Or is the OHER a dubious Ministry Office 
> that "relocates" House-Elves by enslaving them to other families?
> 
> :-)Milz

I noticed this, too, and wondered what it is that the OHER does.  Not 
much, apparently, seeing as how neither Dobby nor Winky seems to know 
they exist.  Maybe the office has been disbanded since Scamander's 
time, which was after all many years ago.  It does says in FB that 
Scamander was extremely bored with that job, maybe there was so 
little to do that the MOM decided the OHER wasn't really needed?  Or 
maybe the OHER refused to help Dobby because he was brash enough to 
"want paying" and Winky was too embarassed to go there?  Or maybe JKR 
just did't think of the OHER until after she had written GoF and 
wrote it into FB without thinking about the Dobby/Winky issue, once 
again underestimating the obsession level of her fans?


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu May 10 16:32:46 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:32:46 -0000
Subject: Dobby, Winky and the Office for House-Elf Relocation
In-Reply-To: <9dedg9+t94t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9defre+f11e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18495

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > I was reading Newt Scamander's biography in "Fantastic Beasts". It 
> > mentioned that he worked in the Office for House-Elf Relocation in 
> > the Department for Regulation and Control of Magical Beasts. 
> > 
> > If there is such an office in the Ministry, why didn't Dobby go 
> there 
> > after he was freed by Lucius Malfoy?.

	I expect Malfoy and Crouch put the word out...and nobody but 
Dumbledore was bold enough to cross them for the sake of a lowly Elf. 
Some of you may  be familiar with the phrase, "You'll never work in 
this town again,"  directed  toward lowly Hollywood types who have 
ticked off Someone Important. I bet it's the same with House Elves. 
Victorian novels also tell of the  plight of the poor servant who is  
dismissed and cannot find work again because the previous boss gave him 
or her a "bad character".
	I imagine the OHER mostly deals with relocating faithful Elves who 
have no one to serve if their family dies out. 
Pippin





From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Thu May 10 12:16:54 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen Dei)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:16:54 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore turns evil.
References: <9ddr89+eqiv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c0d971$111fc340$dd6474d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 18496

This is all a bit confusing for me.  Does having a dark past immediately give one depth? 

"Dumbledore's character would certainly have more depth if he was once 
associated with the dark art"

Depth in the Judeo-Christian traditon was always the fruit of suffering born patiently, a patience that did not exclude an experience of darkness.  And from that experience blossomed the gift of empathy, an ability to enter into the experiences, particularly the sufferings of others.  That empathy faithfully practised would expand the soul/heart/person to a "depth" (or perhaps breadth would be a better word) that would expand right across the globe.

A quicker way to "depth via darkness", and considerably safer for all concerned, is simply to discover the possibilities of evil within one's own heart.  They don't have to be realized in order to bring that almost unfathomable equilibrium that such searchers (seekers) maintain in the face of calaminty, particularly that borne of another's evil deeds.

Why impose insanity on the world by having Dumbledore turn out to be a "servant of evil" in disguise?  One of JKR's main themes is the necessity of trust.  It could not be a necessity if there is no one to trust....

Lumen Dei
Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop  -- "Have Wand, Will Wave"
www.geocites.com/lumen_dei
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:41 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore turns evil.


  Interesting, and a nice point about spy within Grindlewald's circle.  
  There are some canon evidence supporting Dumbledore with a dark past:

  1. PS/SS Chapter 1. Dumbledore remarked that Voldemort possesses 
  power that he would never have and McGonagall replied, 'It's only 
  because you're too noble to use them.'

  2. CoS. In the History of Magic class, a student said Dumbledore 
  can't open the Chamber of Secret because some sort of dark art is 
  required and Prof. Binn retorted, 'Just because a wizard doesn't use 
  dark magic doesn't mean he can't.'

  3. Dumbledore loves to give people a second chance? Why? Is that 
  because someone once gave him a second chance?

  Dumbledore's character would certainly have more depth if he was once 
  associated with the dark art.  For example, the scene in the 
  Pensieve. Dumbledore, while defending Snape, said, 'He's now no more 
  a Death eater than I am.'  If Dumbledore has any sort of past 
  associations with the Dark arts, then this statement very poignant 
  and now has an additional meaning -- 'Look at me, I turn from the 
  dark side and I trust him to pull through as well.'



  _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 16:49:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:49:01 -0000
Subject: Dobby, Winky and the Office for House-Elf Relocation
In-Reply-To: <9defre+f11e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9degpt+ti43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18497

> Some of you may  be familiar with the phrase, "You'll never work in 
> this town again,"  directed  toward lowly Hollywood types who have 
> ticked off Someone Important. I bet it's the same with House Elves.

I think Pippin has it just right.  Also don't forget that Dobby "is 
wanting paying now," which is roughly equivalent to a human maid 
walking into an agency and saying she wants them to find her a job 
that pays $100,000 a year, please.

> 	I imagine the OHER mostly deals with relocating faithful Elves 
who 
> have no one to serve if their family dies out. 

Which is why Scamander found his job "tedious in the 
extreme"--house-elves don't relocate.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 "I've told you before, Ron, keep your nose out 
 if you like it the shape it is.  Can't see why
 you would, but--"
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
------------------------------------------------




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu May 10 17:09:45 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (Jennifer)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:09:45 -0000
Subject: Location of the Hufflepuff Common Room
Message-ID: <9dei0p+4bgi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18498


Surely this has been up already. But I couldn't find it. Kindly point 
me to the thread if it is the case :)

In the Lexicon it is stated that Hufflepuff's common room 
is "unknown, but down a staircase of the main hall". I suppose it's 
there because of the lines in Goblet of Fire, chapter 17, page 
248: "Instead of going up the marble staircase, Cedric headed for a 
door to it's right. Harry stood listening to him going down the steps 
beyond it..."
So it looks just a valid as anything else in the superb Lexicon 
(your'e my hero, Steve! :)
But it got me thinking of something I read in Chamber of Secrets, 
chapter 11, page 148, when Ernie McMillian is telling his fellow 
Hufflepuffs: "...I told Justin to hide up in our dormitory...". When 
saying this, he himself is in the library. 

Now, if the Hufflepuff common room is located above the library, does 
that mean that the library is located in the basement? 

/Jennifer




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 10 17:29:31 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:29:31 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #1 Results and Answers
In-Reply-To: <9dc905+mbvm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dej5r+sis4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18499


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> Remember, the next contest starts on Friday.  This one will be a 
> creative contest, so sharpen those pencils, put on your black
> berets, and get those artistic juices flowing!

<claps hands excitedly> Ooo, a creative contest! Just what I was 
waiting for! I would participate in the quiz contests, but I fear 
my "off the top of my head" knowledge of HP is dreadfully low. When I 
took the test from the link on the FAQ page, I believe I was only 19% 
obsessed with Harry Potter. <hides face> As a result, I usually only 
know one or two answers to the quizzes.

Of course, the longer that I'm on this list, the greater my "off the 
top of my head" knowledge will probably get!

~Amber
 






From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Thu May 10 18:50:27 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:50:27 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore turns evil.
Message-ID: <20010510183823.797AB11970@postfix1.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18500

Dumbledore having a dark past will give the character more depth by creating 
something other in his persona than his almost godlike goodness and other 
virtues. We have yet to see ONE non-heroic personality string in Albus 
Dumbledore, and that might very easyly create a Godfather of goodness like 
seen in so many other books.

One of the things I like the most about the hole "Harry Potter Saga" is the 
fact that it is inovative (not sure about this word, english is my third 
language) and different from other books of its type, giving Dumbledore a dark 
background would do a lot towards that.

BTW. Although I know that he was teacher at Hogwarts at the time when he 
defeated Grindewald, have anyone considered if Dumbledore have ever been an 
Auror. The seal about fighting evil that Aurors hold could do a lot of 
explaining to why he would give so many people all that leash when he KNOWS 
that they are "good".

The Man from the stars - Darreder


>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com =====
>This is all a bit confusing for me.  Does having a dark past immediately give 
one depth?
>
>"Dumbledore's character would certainly have more depth if he was once
>associated with the dark art"
>
>Depth in the Judeo-Christian traditon was always the fruit of suffering born 
patiently, a patience that did not exclude an experience of darkness.  And 
from that experience blossomed the gift of empathy, an ability to enter into 
the experiences,
>particularly the sufferings of others.  That empathy faithfully practised 
would expand the soul/heart/person to a "depth" (or perhaps breadth would be a 
better word) that would expand right across the globe.
>
>A quicker way to "depth via darkness", and considerably safer for all 
concerned, is simply to discover the possibilities of evil within one's own 
heart.  They don't have to be realized in order to bring that almost 
unfathomable equilibrium that
>such searchers (seekers) maintain in the face of calaminty, particularly that 
borne of another's evil deeds.
>
>Why impose insanity on the world by having Dumbledore turn out to be a 
"servant of evil" in disguise?  One of JKR's main themes is the necessity of 
trust.  It could not be a necessity if there is no one to trust....
>
>Lumen Dei
>Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop  -- "Have Wand, Will Wave"
>www.geocites.com/lumen_dei
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com
>  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:41 PM
>  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore turns evil.
>
>
>  Interesting, and a nice point about spy within Grindlewald's circle.
>  There are some canon evidence supporting Dumbledore with a dark past:
>
>  1. PS/SS Chapter 1. Dumbledore remarked that Voldemort possesses
>  power that he would never have and McGonagall replied, 'It's only
>  because you're too noble to use them.'
>
>  2. CoS. In the History of Magic class, a student said Dumbledore
>  can't open the Chamber of Secret because some sort of dark art is
>  required and Prof. Binn retorted, 'Just because a wizard doesn't use
>  dark magic doesn't mean he can't.'
>
>  3. Dumbledore loves to give people a second chance? Why? Is that
>  because someone once gave him a second chance?
>
>  Dumbledore's character would certainly have more depth if he was once
>  associated with the dark art.  For example, the scene in the
>  Pensieve. Dumbledore, while defending Snape, said, 'He's now no more
>  a Death eater than I am.'  If Dumbledore has any sort of past
>  associations with the Dark arts, then this statement very poignant
>  and now has an additional meaning -- 'Look at me, I turn from the
>  dark side and I trust him to pull through as well.'
>
>
>
>  _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>  All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter 
YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they 
want to read and those they don't.
>
>  Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! 
For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>  (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, 
to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read 
and those they don't.
>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! 
For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May 10 20:28:20 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:28:20 -0000
Subject: How Do the Owls Find Sirius?
Message-ID: <9detl4+8vbk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18501

Okay, this is something I've been wondering about for a while.

Since the owls in the wizarding world are so adept at finding people 
without being given addresses, why couldn't the MoM just have sent an 
owl to Sirius when he escaped to find out where he was?  Is it because 
locations of people are not ever disclosed through owl travels?  I 
mean, couldn't someone just follow an owl to a wizard?  Or is that 
just how the owls in the wizarding world are magical - that they can 
find anyone, anywhere, no matter how well someone is hidden?

Any thoughts, anyone?

--jenny from ravenclaw*****************************************




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 10 20:53:39 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:53:39 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Myrtle, Ron's Seeing
In-Reply-To: <9debk3+4ual@eGroups.com>
References: <F132UcOV1EetVoMDrxx000006d3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010510135201.00e59100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18502

At 03:20 PM 5/10/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Yup, Ron's a nascent Seer if you ask me.

I agree!   I think the people speculating that Harry is
a True Seer are barking up the wrong tree... They should
try a *red-haired* tree!  :)



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 10 20:59:08 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:59:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dobby, Winky and the Office for House-Elf Relocation
In-Reply-To: <9defre+f11e@eGroups.com>
References: <9dedg9+t94t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010510135654.00e59ca0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18503

At 04:32 PM 5/10/01 +0000, foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
>Victorian novels also tell of the  plight of the poor servant who is
>dismissed and cannot find work again because the previous boss gave him
>or her a "bad character".

Including Jane Eyre, who couldn't find new work because she
refused to be her former boss' mistress.

Speaking of Jane Eyre, does anyone besides me see Henry
Daniel (Brocklehurst in the Orson Welles version) as
Lucius Malfoy?



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 10 21:03:12 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:03:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Do the Owls Find Sirius?
In-Reply-To: <9detl4+8vbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010510140107.00e4d100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18504

At 08:28 PM 5/10/01 +0000, meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
>Since the owls in the wizarding world are so adept at finding people
>without being given addresses, why couldn't the MoM just have sent an
>owl to Sirius when he escaped to find out where he was?  Is it because
>locations of people are not ever disclosed through owl travels?  I
>mean, couldn't someone just follow an owl to a wizard?  Or is that
>just how the owls in the wizarding world are magical - that they can
>find anyone, anywhere, no matter how well someone is hidden?
>
>Any thoughts, anyone?

My own theory is that it is a magic related to Secret Keeping --
He can only be found by owls bearing letters from people on
his "friends" list -- To everyone else's owls he's "unlisted".



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 10 21:05:53 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:05:53 -0700
Subject: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
In-Reply-To: <9ddfds+il9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010510140406.00e55d00@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18505

At 07:19 AM 5/10/01 +0000, Danica wrote:
>Have any of
>you thought that... He is James' Brother?

Speaking for myself, no... But I *have* considered the
possibilty that he is *Lily's* brother...!



                         -- Dave




From litalex at yahoo.com  Thu May 10 21:49:12 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:49:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010510140406.00e55d00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c0d99b$0dc75760$a511eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 18506

Hello,

> >Have any of
> >you thought that... He is James' Brother?
>
> Speaking for myself, no... But I *have* considered the
> possibilty that he is *Lily's* brother...!

Wouldn't work either way.  Petunia (sp) would have mentioned having a
brother.  And if Snape is James's brother, they'd have the same last name.
And even if they didn't, James probably would have appointed Snape as
Harry's legal guardian instead of Sirius.  And Snape definitely would have
raised Harry instead of the Dursleys.

little Alex




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 22:10:18 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:10:18 -0000
Subject: Harry's age
In-Reply-To: <9cumhi+27k1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9df3ka+f8gv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18507

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> According to CoS, Nearly Headless Nick died on Ocotber 31, 1492.
> And Nick was celebrating his 400th Death Day. So CoS happened
> during the 1992-1993 school year. Harry was 12 years old during
> CoS, so Harry was born in 1980.

Was it 1492 or 1592?  400+1492=1892, not 1992.

....Craig




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu May 10 22:15:44 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:15:44 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
Message-ID: <9df3ug+v9dm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18508

This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy (eggonmyhead at hotmail.com), who was 
kind enough to allow me to post it here.  As we all know, the last 
word of the seventh book is supposed to be "scar."  The contest is to 
write that last sentence, and state the rationale that would make it 
the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen by acclamation.
Any takers?

Haggridd




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 22:18:12 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:18:12 -0000
Subject: Wands and their cores
In-Reply-To: <9curcm+h9nm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9df434+k8s6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18509

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Here's something interesting.  Appalachian folklore (which means 
that 
> this most likely has a lowland Scot or northern English origin) 
holds 
> that Ash wood keeps away SNAKES.  Now, don't get too excited, I 
> already checked, and Harry's wand is made of Holly.  However, 
> Cedric's wand was made of ash.  Reckon what happened to it?  Do you 
> think Wormtail or someone picked it up?  I don't remember Harry 
> bringing it back along with Cedric's body.

Holly, of course, is a very blond (almost white) wood, which for
obvious reasons carries implications of purity.  I know because
I went as Harry last Halloween and researched out the wand wood to
determine what my wand should be made of.  In the end, I didn't
have the time to make a holly wand and had to settle for an off-
white plastic dowel.

I note that the pictures I've seen, either of the movie wand or wands
based on those in the movie, get Harry's wand entirely wrong, imho.

....Craig




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu May 10 18:23:46 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:23:46 EST5EDT
Subject: New Contest: Write your own last sentence.
Message-ID: <4E99064DB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18510

Hmmm......

"And as Ron and Hermione walked away, hand in hand, the rest of 
the group could finally see the inscription on Harry's headstone; 
"Our Hero and Best Friend, Rest in Peace" and below that, a 
perfect engraving of his scar."

Reasons:  Because I know some people will find it annoying.  :-)  
Ron and Hermione together....Harry's death....

But those are both great ideas that could possibly happen by Book 
7.



Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Oh, the thrill of the chase as I soar through the air
With the Snitch up ahead and the wind in my hair
As I draw ever closer, the crowd gives a shout
But then comes a Bludger and I am knocked out.

"I don't know who Jim Henson is but I've heard he has his hand in a 
lot of things around here." - Kermit the Frog, 1972



From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 22:44:50 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:44:50 -0000
Subject: boggart
In-Reply-To: <9cvhpt+kmjb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9df5l2+s49m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18511

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> I wonder what Patronus (how would I pluralize that word?) the
> Dursleys would conjure up.

Well, patronus (long mark on the a and the o) is straightforward
Latin, second declension, meaning "protector, defender, patron".
(No surprise there.)

Thus:

singular:
N  patronus
G  patroni
D  patrono
Ac patronum
Ab patrono
V  patrone

plural:
N  patroni
G  patronorum
D  patronis
Ac patronos
Ab patronis

Since English usage tends to eschew the case structure and use the
nominative plural (consider "alumnus, alumni"), I would venture that
you should say: "I wonder what patroni the Dursleys would conjure up."

....Craig




From counterfeitlove at yahoo.com  Thu May 10 23:17:27 2001
From: counterfeitlove at yahoo.com (Sarah Rose)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:17:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
In-Reply-To: <007f01c0d99b$0dc75760$a511eda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <20010510231727.17964.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18512


--- "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > >Have any of
> > >you thought that... He is James' Brother?
> >
> > Speaking for myself, no... But I *have* considered
> the
> > possibilty that he is *Lily's* brother...!
> 
> Wouldn't work either way.  Petunia (sp) would have
> mentioned having a
> brother.  And if Snape is James's brother, they'd
> have the same last name.
> And even if they didn't, James probably would have
> appointed Snape as
> Harry's legal guardian instead of Sirius.  And Snape
> definitely would have
> raised Harry instead of the Dursleys.
> 

i'm not so sure about that...  their parents could
have divorced and since they do loathe each other so
much, he appointed Snape as Harry's guardian...
or maybe Snape is like James's cousin or something.
just my opinion

Sarah

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu May 10 23:20:22 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 23:20:22 -0000
Subject: DeLurking long enough to ask...
In-Reply-To: <9ddfds+il9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9df7nm+gfh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18513

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Danica" <danicav at h...> wrote:
> Hello Group,
> 
> Though I must admitt, I have only read all of May's posts, and some 
> of April's, I have not seen this question approached.  I haven't 
> posted answers because I don't feel comfortable enough yet. :)
> 
> I see much converse about Snape evil/good and why he dislikes, but 
> feels he must protect Harry.  Also, if he has gone back to V. in 
some 
> way to assist in 'the cause' has anyone ever thought to ask...
> 
> Please allow my imagination...  That with the description JKR give 
> Snape, black hair, twinkling eyes, strong features, etc.  Have any 
of 
> you thought that... He is James' Brother?  I know, I know, but come 
> on, just because we have sibling rivaleries doesnt mean we don't 
love 
> our family members.
> 

I have never considered a Snape/James blood relationship.  So, did 
James know, and distrust his brother to the point that he and Lily 
would ask Sirius to be Harry's godfather?  Or do you think James and 
Severus unaware of their relationship?

I've always had a gut feeling that there was a possibility of a 
Snape/Sirius blood relationship that neither of them is aware of.  
Since they are grudgingly willing to work together for the defeat of 
Voldemort, I thought that an additional interesting twist would be 
for them to find out that they are indeed related.  JKR could write a 
real hoot of a scene as these two attempt to come to terms with this.




From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 01:03:42 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:03:42 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
References: <20010510231727.17964.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <013301c0d9b6$393abd40$a511eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 18514

Hello,

> i'm not so sure about that...  their parents could
> have divorced and since they do loathe each other so
> much, he appointed Snape as Harry's guardian...
> or maybe Snape is like James's cousin or something.
> just my opinion

Hmm.  Even if the parents divorced, there's no reason for Snape to change
his last name.  I mean, unless the kid really, really loathed his/her 'real'
father, not that many kids would change their last name to their
stepfather's.  Secondly, Dumbledore did mention in Philosopher's
Stone/Sorcerer's Stone that the Dursleys were Harry's last living relatives.
I mean, we can always play "what if" and muse about Alternative Universes,
but in canon, there's no blood relationship between Snape and Harry.

little Alex




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 01:03:28 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 01:03:28 -0000
Subject: New Contest: Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <4E99064DB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <9dfdp0+km6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18515

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> Hmmm......
> 
> "And as Ron and Hermione walked away, hand in hand, the rest of 
> the group could finally see the inscription on Harry's headstone; 
> "Our Hero and Best Friend, Rest in Peace" and below that, a 
> perfect engraving of his scar."
> 
> Reasons:  Because I know some people will find it annoying.  :-)  
> Ron and Hermione together....Harry's death....
> 
> But those are both great ideas that could possibly happen by Book 
> 7.
> 
> 
> 
> Rachel Bray
> The Ohio State University
> Fees, Deposits and Disbursements
> 
Personally, I think that Ron & Hermione is a no-brainer.  I dunno 
about Harry dying.  Nice stretch to come up with that complex a 
sentence, though.

Haggridd




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 01:04:12 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth C)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:04:12 +1000
Subject: who taught Voldemort?
Message-ID: <F100gz3FB1FxQFM83UV00000f9e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18516

I'm sitting here with a friend, and she just brought up a point I hadn't 
thought about before: Who taught Voldemort the Dark Arts?? I mean, I think 
he was self-taught a lot of the later stuff, but he needed someone to ground 
him in the basics. And obviously it couldn't have been his parents.
Any thoughts??
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Fri May 11 03:00:37 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 03:00:37 -0000
Subject: Ron and Draco (was similar but divergent characters/Snape's love)
In-Reply-To: <9da0ui+am1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dfkkl+f8lm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18517

Meril wrote: Ron's "mirror" is Draco. Both are from established 
wizarding families; both tend to feud with each other both with words 
and wands in much the same way. However, the main divergence is the 
amount of money each family has, and the boys' reactions to it."

And both boys serve a similar purpose for Harry (and to a lesser 
extent, Hermione): giving insight into the wizarding world. Ron and 
Draco both take utterly for granted many small details and larger 
social mores that Harry (and we readers as well) simply haven't 
encountered before. Despite their economic (and moral?) differences, 
Ron and Draco are both relatively unquestioning about standard 
wizarding schools of thought. It's Harry's job, as the outsider (and 
hero) and Hermione's (as the resident skeptic-about-everything) to 
push back on those assumptions, which, IMO, is the "point" (if there 
is one) that JKR is trying to get across. 

~Rosmerta





From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 03:20:54 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 03:20:54 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Uni - Myrtle
Message-ID: <F230Jc0xvlUQ9cAgjHX00002563@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18518

I sort of figured she meant "No, I'm not writing any more Harry books after 
the 7th" type of thing, actually. No Harry at uni, type thing. Maybe?

Cait (and corgis), newly converted Draco fangirl, making a Draco plushie...


>From: joym999 at aol.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Uni - Myrtle
>Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:46:12 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
>
> > Firstly, I think that there *are* higher education institutions in
>the
> > wizarding world, that Hogwarts etc are not the be-all-and-end-all
>of
> > learning. Maybe not universitys as such, but training centers for
> > professors, wand-makers, etc.
>
>I, too, find it hard to imagine that there aren't wizard centers of
>higher learning.  The evidence against it seems to be mainly that JKR
>has said there are no wizard universities and that Percy Weasley, an
>academic-oriented person if there ever was one, goes directly from
>Hogwarts to a job in the MOM.
>
>Of course, just because JKR has said something doesn't mean we
>believe her (after all, it's only her universe) as evidence by The
>Great Population Debate.
>
>And maybe bureaucrats don't need any more training, but other types
>of wizards do, so there are, as Elizabeth suggested, vocational
>training centers, or at least apprenticeships?  Maybe thats what
>Charlie is doing in Romania -- an internship at the Center for Dragon
>Studies.
>
>This one really bugs me.  How could a community which produces
>periodicals like "The Journal of Transfiguration" NOT have any
>academic institutions higher than secondary schools?
>
>
>
>       ^
>      / \
>     /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
>    /     \
>__/       \__
>
>*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
>
>   "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
>   "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do
>they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."
>
>*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May 11 03:24:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 03:24:06 -0000
Subject: Snape, Weasley, Fudge and Malfoy- timelines?
In-Reply-To: <9ddlfj+amo3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dfm0m+77lj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18519

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> 
wrote:
> > > > Excellent point. I'd forgotten that quote. I agree with you 
> that 
> > > > Lucius and Narcissa seem to be more or less contemporaries of 
> > Molly
> > > > and Arthur, although I am not absolutely convinced that the
> > > > Weasleys are that young. We'll see...
> > > > 
> > > > Steve
> > > 
> > > No, not Narcissa.  I'm sure Narcissa is a trophy and Lucius 
spent 
> at
> > > least a decade and a half checking out available females with 
the
> > > proper bloodlines before making his selection.
> > > 
> >  
> > Exactly my opinion about Lucius. He's surely Arthur's age, if not 
> > older but Narcissa seems younger, at least in my imagination. I 
see 
> > them as one of these couples that build their relation on mutual 
> > agreements, bloodlines and families- and Lucius was most likely 
> > hunting for someone like her for ages.  
> > 
> 
>  I was wondering can anyone place Fudge in the Weasley/Malfoy 
> timeline. I get the feeling that he wasn't in the same year as 
Arthur 
> and Lucius (assuming that they were in the same year) as he doesn't 
> seem to realise they dislike one another.
>  For some reason I have the gut feeling that Fudge is younger than 
> the other two but have no facts to back me up.
>  Does anyone have any ideas?
> 
>  Jen
*************************************
Have you tried Steve Vander Ark's Lexicon Time Line?

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/timeline_main.html

Doreen
*************************************




From potterlovingash at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 05:02:06 2001
From: potterlovingash at hotmail.com (Ashley Kelly)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 05:02:06 -0000
Subject: Wands on the Official Site
Message-ID: <9dfroe+a8v1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18520

Has anyone tried the Ollivander shop on the Official Site yet. I did 
and I am embarassed because my wand is 13'' long. It is huge! So I 
figured I could perhaps get another one if I went to the shop again, 
but nope, it is the wand for me. Everyone go and get your wands!

Ashley K. {out of lurkdome}




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Fri May 11 05:26:43 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 01:26:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
References: <9df3ug+v9dm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AFB7813.C91F6B9F@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 18521



Haggridd wrote:

> This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy (eggonmyhead at hotmail.com), who was
> kind enough to allow me to post it here.  As we all know, the last
> word of the seventh book is supposed to be "scar."  The contest is to
> write that last sentence, and state the rationale that would make it
> the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen by acclamation.
> Any takers?
>
> Haggridd
>
> ___

I'll have a go....

"They sped along the grounds of Hogwarts, the night sky above them a glorious black; the colour of a ravens wing. Harry, Ron and Hermione stopped to catch their breathe, the danger over, the moment passed. The stars above were beautiful.
Shining beacons of magic hoisted up in the air and held there by some unknown force. And the moon.

The moon hung above them, father to all the magic stars A pale lightning bolt of a moon, hidden behind misty clouds. Hermione would often wonder later on where the thought came from, but the moon, it's magic bidding them to follow, looked
just like Harry's scar."


Okay, that's pretty good if I do say so myself for 1:30 in the morning. How'd I do?


> --

"Westley and I are joined by the bonds of love,
and you cannot track it, not with a thousand
blood houds. And you cannot break it, not with a
thousand swords. And when I say you are a
coward, it is only because you are the slimiest
 weakling ever to crawl the earth!" - Buttercup
from 'The Princess Bride'

"There is a shortage of very perfect breasts in this world.
It would be a pity to damage yours." -
Wesley in The Princess Bride





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Fri May 11 05:28:07 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 01:28:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands on the Official Site
References: <9dfroe+a8v1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AFB7867.8DC5102@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 18522

I got mine...nine inches, yew and dragon heartstring...it's pretty neat! I tried the Quidditch game too, and it didn't work to well. But, it's all good! I now have a wand! Yay!!!!

<g>
Jamieson

Ashley Kelly wrote:

> Has anyone tried the Ollivander shop on the Official Site yet. I did
> and I am embarassed because my wand is 13'' long. It is huge! So I
> figured I could perhaps get another one if I went to the shop again,
> but nope, it is the wand for me. Everyone go and get your wands!
>
> Ashley K. {out of lurkdome}
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--

"Westley and I are joined by the bonds of love,
and you cannot track it, not with a thousand
blood houds. And you cannot break it, not with a
thousand swords. And when I say you are a
coward, it is only because you are the slimiest
 weakling ever to crawl the earth!" - Buttercup
from 'The Princess Bride'

"There is a shortage of very perfect breasts in this world.
It would be a pity to damage yours." -
Wesley in The Princess Bride





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 06:41:30 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 06:41:30 -0000
Subject: Hagrid, Questions, # of Teachers 
Message-ID: <9dg1iq+rqhg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18523

Clarifications 
Hagrid was 13 when the chamber was first opened. 
He would be in his sixties now. 
Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before Hagrid became 
the groundskeeper. I believe she mentioned the old 
groundskeeper in GoF.  

Questions 
Did Hagrid go to Azkaban when expelled from Hogwarts? 
How long was Hagrid in Azkaban? 
How long between getting expelled and working at Hogwarts? 
Was Dumbledore Headmaster for Arthur and Molly? 


Not enough teachers? 
We may not hear about all of them. Harry goes to each class 
once or twice a week. Instructors could teach 3-4 classes a 
day for a total of 15-20 classes a week. Enough to cover 4 
houses one or two at a time. However, there could be another 
potions instructor. 'can open, worms everywhere'  


Bugg 
I read someone else's post about making a wand for Holloween, 
I am glad I am not the only one. I fashioned mine out of 
Hibiscus wood. 






From deeblite at home.com  Fri May 11 07:03:55 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 03:03:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands on the Official Site
In-Reply-To: <3AFB7867.8DC5102@sympatico.ca>
References: <9dfroe+a8v1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010511025719.029cfe50@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18524

At 01:28 AM 5/11/01 -0400, you wrote:
>I got mine...nine inches, yew and dragon heartstring...it's pretty neat! I 
>tried the Quidditch game too, and it didn't work to well. But, it's all 
>good! I now have a wand! Yay!!!!

Dragon heartstring, Cedar, 13 inches..   Daaaaang.
As for the quidditch game.. Is it my imagination, or does that beater look 
like Darth Maul?




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri May 11 07:14:58 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:14:58 +0100
Subject: ADMIN:  Wands ... - OT Chatter please (and some general info)
References: <9dfroe+a8v1@eGroups.com> <3AFB7867.8DC5102@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <09a601c0d9ea$173e2fe0$3b3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 18525

## Flying Ford Anglia floats in on a cloud of exhaust fumes, wearing a
floor-length indigo gown and shiny headlamp earmuffs ##

If you decide to visit Ollivander's on the official HP site, please post
your personal wand details to OT Chatter, where we can compare sizes, say
"Cor!," and let off sparks to our hearts' content.

Okay, now for the 'Professor Binns' bit:

For information, the following (non-exhaustive) list includes the sort of
HP-related topics that should go to OT Chatter (in addition to completely OT
things):

******
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone else -
unless
it can be tied to canon) *** Listings of HP merchandise collections ***
Answering
a roll call, e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner) *** Detailing your results on a
HP Quiz
or Sorting Hat test *** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties' *** Shipper
Debates
not supported by examples from canon *** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers
and
other paraphernalia *** Definitions or explanations of British words,
phrases and
traditions related to HP.*** Fantasy casting posts (for the HP movies)
*******

Similarly, the following (non-exhaustive) list should give you an idea what
should go to Announcements:

*******
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements
The HPforGrownUps Newsletter ......... *** ADMIN messages
from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to the main group) ***
Announcements of chat room sessions *** Announcements of new discussion
summaries posted to the main list *** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per
chapter
by the author) *** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members'
meetings) *** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other
websites *** News releases, with links (this should include things related
to
the Warner Brothers' movie) *** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes
***
Alerts to new HP merchandise *** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings,
tours, TV appearances, chats, etc.) *** Information on HP fan clubs.
*******

For those who weren't here when they were created, our two sister lists are
aimed at keeping the message volume on the main list to a reasonable level
by sticking, as far as possible, to discussions of the HP books (and the
movies).

On the main list, the heading prefixes FF: (for fanfic ties to canon), SHIP:
(for relationshipping) and MOVIE: (for, um, movie) are still in place, as
some people like to delete or skip those topics.

## The fumes become stifling ##   "Wha? What?... I can't hear you, I'm
afraid!  I'm wearing these earmuffs!!"

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri May 11 11:30:03 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:30:03 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <3AFB7813.C91F6B9F@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9dgifr+948b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18526


> Haggridd wrote:
> 
> > This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy (eggonmyhead at h...), who was
> > kind enough to allow me to post it here.  As we all know, the last
> > word of the seventh book is supposed to be "scar."  The contest is 
to
> > write that last sentence, and state the rationale that would make 
it
> > the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen by 
acclamation.
> > Any takers?
> >
> > Haggridd

You can say what you like, but I?m utterly convinced it can be nothing 
but:

"And then, standing on the tip of her toes, she reached up to put her 
arms around his neck, and kissed him, softly and silently, on his 
scar."




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri May 11 11:33:44 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:33:44 -0000
Subject: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010510140406.00e55d00@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9dgimo+btl1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18527

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 07:19 AM 5/10/01 +0000, Danica wrote:
> >Have any of
> >you thought that... He is James' Brother?
> 
> Speaking for myself, no... But I *have* considered the
> possibilty that he is *Lily's* brother...!
>

No way. Far too simple.




From EvenCirce713 at aol.com  Fri May 11 11:57:39 2001
From: EvenCirce713 at aol.com (EvenCirce713 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:57:39 -0000
Subject: Location of the Hufflepuff Common Room
In-Reply-To: <9dei0p+4bgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dgk3j+ptut@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18528

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer" <jennifer.k at l...> wrote:

> But it got me thinking of something I read in Chamber of Secrets, 
> chapter 11, page 148, when Ernie McMillian is telling his fellow 
> Hufflepuffs: "...I told Justin to hide up in our dormitory...". 
When 
> saying this, he himself is in the library. 
> 
> Now, if the Hufflepuff common room is located above the library, 
does 
> that mean that the library is located in the basement? 
> 
> /Jennifer
This may have been answered and I missed it, but the answer to this 
may simply be that people often don't use directions up & down 
correctly. I have a friend with a summer house in Massachusets( we 
live in the south) and it's always referred to as "when we go down 
for the summer". 
~Circe




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri May 11 11:50:50 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:50:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
References: <9dgifr+948b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007701c0da14$8060c300$27bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18529

>You can say what you like, but Im utterly convinced it can be nothing
>but:
>
>"And then, standing on the tip of her toes, she reached up to put her
>arms around his neck, and kissed him, softly and silently, on his
>scar."

Awww.  Isn't that nice.  Harry and Ginny finally get together.

<grin, duck, and run REAL FAST>
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Fri May 11 12:26:03 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:26:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Location of the Hufflepuff Common Room
In-Reply-To: <9dei0p+4bgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAENJDIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 18530

Jennifer: <<<In the Lexicon it is stated that Hufflepuff's common room is
"unknown, but down a staircase of the main hall". I suppose it's there because
of the lines in Goblet of Fire, chapter 17, page 248: "Instead of going up the
marble staircase, Cedric headed for a door to it's right. Harry stood listening
to him going down the steps beyond it..."
<snip>
But it got me thinking of something I read in Chamber of Secrets, chapter 11,
page 148, when Ernie McMillian is telling his fellow Hufflepuffs: "...I told
Justin to hide up in our dormitory...". When saying this, he himself is in the
library.
Now, if the Hufflepuff common room is located above the library, does that mean
that the library is located in the basement?>>>

Even if the common room is below ground this does not mean the dormitories for
that house are similarly situated. The Gryffindor males have to go up some
stairs to get to their dormitories (or at least Harry's lot do and I assume the
same is true for the other males and possibly the females as well). If the same
is true for the Hufflepuffs' then the dorms may be quite a few floors above the
library, but with the common room well below it.

Also just because Cedric at first heads down from the main hall this does not
mean that he does not go up again to reach the Hufflepuff common room. Shortcuts
can involve going up and downstairs.


Circe: <<<This may have been answered and I missed it, but the answer to this
may simply be that people often don't use directions up & down correctly. I have
a friend with a summer house in Massachusets (we live in the south) and it's
always referred to as "when we go down for the summer".>>>

Of course this could explain it as well. 'Everyone' knows that bedrooms are
always up in a house. So the natural phrase is 'up in our dorm'.



Simon (I just realised a small irony in using the below sig - I don't drink
coffee!)
--
" Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups -
alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From EvenCirce713 at aol.com  Fri May 11 12:45:38 2001
From: EvenCirce713 at aol.com (EvenCirce713 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:45:38 -0000
Subject: who taught Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <F100gz3FB1FxQFM83UV00000f9e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dgmti+a6br@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18531

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
> Who taught Voldemort the Dark Arts?? I mean, I think 
> he was self-taught a lot of the later stuff, but he needed someone 
to ground him in the basics. And obviously it couldn't have been his 
parents.
> Any thoughts??>>

Since we are not really certain of the extent of other wizarding 
schools, and we know Durmstrang taught the use of the Dark Arts, 
there could easliy be a place where a "further qualification" than 
the NEWTs could be received in Dark Arts. Maybe it was founded by the 
Dark wizard Grindewold(sp?) and is covered by protective wards. 
I've always wondered whether there wasn't some connection between 
Grindewold and Voldie. The chocolate frog card said Dumbledore 
defeated him, but he still could have been in hiding someplace, just 
as Voldie was. Maybe they spent time together in secret, somewhat 
like Peter was helping Voldemort- then after he'd learned from 
Grindewold, he could have turned on him and given him the final curse.
Who knows?  I haven't thought as much about the Dark stuff as I 
should. 
~Circe
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Thu May 10 07:38:33 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 07:38:33 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Knight Bus (was POA Chapters 3 and 4)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F721bTVn2AI3F50000282c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18532


Amy Z wrote:

> > Does the Knight Bus only run at night?  That idea
> > got planted in my
> > head when I thought it was Night Bus and has never
> > gotten uprooted.
> >
> > Amy Z

"Knight Bus" is a play on "Night Bus" - Night Buses run through the night in 
London and, after the Tube and trains stop running (around midnight) are the 
only public transport available.  They are a very welcome sight when they 
(eventually) turn up to take you home, and are the traditional red 
double-deckers, so it can feel as if a knight in shining armour has come to 
rescue you :).  The roads being clearer at that time of night, once you are 
out of the centre, the bus bounces along at a considerable pace, for a bus, 
tree-branches rattle along the roof and you're sure the driver's never going 
to make that corner (but he always does) so the whole experience is not 
unlike the Knight Bus - apart from the comfortable beds, panelling and 
chandeliers, of course!  I also loved the name Ernie Prang - "prang" is old 
RAF (based on Malay, I think) slang for "crash", extended to road traffic, 
and is associated with a rather insouciant attitude to crashes, as in 
"pranged the Jag last week - what a bore!".  The Knight Bus is another 
example of JKR finding the magic in the everyday, or, in this case, every 
night :)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From EvenCirce713 at aol.com  Fri May 11 13:05:14 2001
From: EvenCirce713 at aol.com (EvenCirce713 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:05:14 -0000
Subject: Ron and Draco (was similar but divergent characters/Snape's love)
In-Reply-To: <9dfkkl+f8lm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dgo2a+10ffr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18533

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" <tmayor at m...> wrote:
> Ron and 
> Draco both take utterly for granted many small details and larger 
> social mores that Harry (and we readers as well) simply haven't 
> encountered before. Despite their economic (and moral?) differences,
 Ron and Draco are both relatively unquestioning about standard 
> wizarding schools of thought. It's Harry's job, as the outsider 
(and hero) and Hermione's (as the resident skeptic-about-everything) 
to push back on those assumptions, which, IMO, is the "point" (if 
there is one) that JKR is trying to get across. 
> 
> ~Rosmerta

I think this is one of the most charming things about the books- 
Ron's simple assmptions of things that are to Harry(and us) utterly 
fantastic. Then we see how these same things are viewed by Draco, 
who,instead of the just "that's the way it is" attitude Ron has, adds 
his sneering commentary.
Hermione, however, you don't know with her, just how much to expect 
her to know. Sometimes she has more information, than you'd expect 
since she IS the information gatherer, and has the "why's" of the 
wizarding world. Then there's our hero, just taking it all in. ( 
again making us feel closer to him, since we're doing the same)
Funnily enough, as Harry has become more knowledgeable, he takes it 
all for granted too. Do the rest of you.?I sometimes find myself 
talking to a non - HP person, saying something, and they'll give me 
that "huh?" look, and I want to do a Hermione and say "HONESTLY, 
hasn't anyone around here read Hogwarts:A History? ( or some similar 
remark.)
~ Circe




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri May 11 13:20:46 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:20:46 -0000
Subject: Location of the Hufflepuff Common Room
In-Reply-To: <9dgk3j+ptut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dgove+4fi0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18534


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer" <jennifer.k at l...> wrote:
> 
> > But it got me thinking of something I read in Chamber of Secrets, 
> > chapter 11, page 148, when Ernie McMillian is telling his fellow 
> > Hufflepuffs: "...I told Justin to hide up in our dormitory

I think he's saying "hide up" as in "hide out," maybe.

The Hufflepuff common room may very well BE up. We don't have any 
idea where Cedric went after he went through that door. He may have 
gone up another longer staircase after he went down one. The truth is 
that we have no real idea where either the Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff 
common rooms are.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From zenonah at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 13:40:16 2001
From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:40:16 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart)
In-Reply-To: <9df5l2+s49m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dgq40+n820@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18535

Graig told us:

> Well, patronus (long mark on the a and the o) is straightforward
> Latin, second declension, meaning "protector, defender, patron".

I think this site might interest very many of us, since Latin is a 
part of HP books:

www.yle.fi/fbc/latini

It's Finnish radio that sends Nuntii Latini-program via satellite all 
over the world. Five minutes of latest news in latin once a week. I 
think they started sending programs in the Net too lately. They also 
answer questions about latin and from archives you can read news few 
months back.

I have studied latin only a year, but it is delightful to understand 
what charms mean and where the names come from. I have also enjoyed 
very much of your discussion about names and their origins. I just 
thought if anybody is interested about collecting HP names in finnish 
I could look them up.

Jenny
zenonah at yahoo.com





From zenonah at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 13:55:13 2001
From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:55:13 -0000
Subject: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
In-Reply-To: <013301c0d9b6$393abd40$a511eda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <9dgr01+93e6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18536

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > i'm not so sure about that...  their parents could
> > have divorced and since they do loathe each other so
> > much, he appointed Snape as Harry's guardian...
> > or maybe Snape is like James's cousin or something.
> > just my opinion
> 
> Hmm.  Even if the parents divorced, there's no reason for Snape to 
change
> his last name.  I mean, unless the kid really, really loathed 
his/her 'real'
> father, not that many kids would change their last name to their
> stepfather's

My cousin did change her lastname to her mothers, and her father 
isn't even the worst case I've known. So what if Snape's mother 
wasn't James' mother? And what if James didn't know before his death 
that Snape had turned into good side? Or what if James had changed 
his lastname because of evil forefathers? What if, what if...I stop 
it here... =)

Jenny




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri May 11 14:03:57 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:03:57 -0000
Subject: Hagrid, Questions, # of Teachers
In-Reply-To: <9dg1iq+rqhg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dgrgd+eqn3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18537

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Clarifications 
> Hagrid was 13 when the chamber was first opened. 
> He would be in his sixties now. 
> Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before Hagrid became 
> the groundskeeper. I believe she mentioned the old 
> groundskeeper in GoF.  

Hagrid was born in 1929. He is in his mid-60s in the books. We don't 
know if Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before or after that point. 
Hagrid's stint as Groundskeep would have included, presumably, an 
apprentice period, when Ogg would have been the "head guy" and young 
Hagrid would have followed him around, carrying his crossbow and 
whatever. Poor guy...unjustly accused...

I am not impressed by the state of justice in the Wizarding World.


> "can opened, worms everywhere"

That's a great motto for this list. Can we put it on the main page 
somewhere? Who do we credit the quote to? :D

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a timeline of Hagrid's life on the Hagrid page
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From ochfd42 at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 14:18:18 2001
From: ochfd42 at yahoo.com (Angela Boyko)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:18:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
In-Reply-To: <007f01c0d99b$0dc75760$a511eda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <20010511141818.56442.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18538


--- "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > >Have any of
> > >you thought that... He is James' Brother?
> >
> > Speaking for myself, no... But I *have* considered
> the
> > possibilty that he is *Lily's* brother...!
> 
> Wouldn't work either way.  Petunia (sp) would have
> mentioned having a
> brother.  And if Snape is James's brother, they'd
> have the same last name.

Not to mention that if Snape is Lily's brother, that
would make him a Mudblood. I cannot imagine that the
head of Slytherin house would be Muggle-born!

Angela


=====
* * * http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4439/index.html * * *
               May the Force be with you

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca



From dorband at uwp.edu  Fri May 11 14:18:47 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:18:47 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts population again
In-Reply-To: <9dece4+gsnq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dgsc7+an0d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18539

4 Even if each student took only an average of 30 seconds to get 
sorted, the sorting  ceremony would be over an hour long.  
>       ^
>      / \
>     /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
>    /     \
> __/       \__
> 
> 
*

It always struck me as unreasonable that Harry and Hermione would 
entirely MISS the sorting in PoA when they met with MM upon arriving 
at Hogwarts.  This meeting couldn't have taken so long as to miss the 
entire sorting - and what, wouldn't MM want/need to be at the sorting 
to welcome her new charges?!?  Implausible, I'd say.  

Brian




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 14:51:21 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: who taught Voldemort?
In-Reply-To: <9dgmti+a6br@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010511145121.80338.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18540


--- EvenCirce713 at aol.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
> > Who taught Voldemort the Dark Arts?? I mean, I think 
> > he was self-taught a lot of the later stuff, but he needed
> someone 
> to ground him in the basics. And obviously it couldn't have been
> his 
> parents.
> > Any thoughts??>>

Maybe in those days some parts of the library weren't restricted and
he could read and research whatever he wanted.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From deeblite at home.com  Fri May 11 15:02:53 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:02:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Location of the Hufflepuff Common Room
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAENJDIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac .uk>
References: <9dei0p+4bgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010511110129.00a311c0@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18541

At 01:26 PM 5/11/01 +0100, you wrote:

>Also just because Cedric at first heads down from the main hall this does not
>mean that he does not go up again to reach the Hufflepuff common room. 
>Shortcuts
>can involve going up and downstairs.

And remember, this is a MAGIC castle.  Just because a stair way leads up 
doesnt mean the place it leads is ABOVE the place you started.  It could 
very well be on the same level or below.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri May 11 15:07:40 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:07:40 -0700
Subject: Merlin -  Dumbledore/McGonagall - What Dumbledore Knows - Snape in Love  - Draco - Voldemort - Ravenclaw Common Room
Message-ID: <3AFC003C.D8221F9A@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18542

Hallie Usmar wrote:
> [in]  Keats' 'The Eve of St. Agnes' , it turns out that Merlin was
> conceived by the devil.
That Merlin was the son of the Devil and a nun (nitpick: the father
begets, the *mother* conceives) and was taught magic by a wizard named
Blaise is only one of the 'origin stories' for Merlin.

Raining lizards wrote:
> am I the only one who gets a serious vibe between Dumbledore
> and McGonagall?  I've thought they were sleeping together
> since the beginning of the first book.  (snip)
> Does anyone know of any Dumbledore/McGonagall fanfic?
> Or do I have to write my own?  And is is appropriate to
> write such fanfic when HP has such a large following of under-18's?

I don't know if there is any Dumbledore/McGonagall fanfic, but there
seem to be many, many fans think who think they are obviously an item. I
personally disagree. I firmly believe that McGonagall and Hooch have
been a couple since forever. I think Dumbledore and Pomfrey may be
comforting each other's loneliness. There is a ton of NC-17 fanfic on
ffnet and other archives.

Morag Traynor wrote:
> Yet he misses three unregistered animagi under his nose
> for several years.  Odd.

It recently occurred to me that maybe one of the ways that Dumbledore
knows so much about what is going on at Hogwarts could be that the House
Elves and the ghosts inform him of any unusual things they notice. And
the House Elves and the ghosts might keep secrets for people whom they
particularly like. If charming James or kind Remus had made friends with
the House Elves, they could leave out of their report that the
Marauders' dorm room is always unoccupied on the Full Moon night when
the House Elf on that duty comes in to make up the fire (or otherwise
turn on the heat) when the wee hours start getting larger.

Amy Z wrote:
> It's =possible= that she's stunned not because Snape is going
> to fall in love and that will be a key to Book Seven, but because
> something in Book Seven will reveal that no way on earth would
> Snape ever love anyone.

I think maybe I don't believe in the existence of a human being (except
some kind of complete psychopath) who never could fall in love with
anyone.

Joe Browneyes wrote:
> Snape gay??? Yeah right- if any thing he is just avoiding
> WOMEN.. he is not gay or a homo just 'cause' he is a jerk.

I think you didn't understand my theory. I was not thinking that being a
jerk is a sign of being gay -- in fact, I feel guilty about suggesting
that a jerk is gay, as possibly contributing to anti-gay bigotry. The
two characteristics are not related at all.

> he also could not have been friends with Malfoy because
> Lucius went to school with Arthur who was in a older
> than than James, Sirus, etc.

It is possible to be friends with people whom you met after you finished
school and joined the adult world, including people who are older than
you. I have a number of good friends who are around 15 years older than
me (43 vs 55+).

> If Snape is not a DE why does he like Draco so much?
> Part of the Spy act maybe...to get Lucius to trust him, and pass
> the trust to Voldie?

Some people think that. I continue to like my theory that Snape, like
MoM and much of the wizarding public, was fooled by the Lucius's claim
that he had only followed V because he was bewitched. On another
tentacle, if Snape knows that Lucius is a very bad wizard, he could make
a pet of Draco in an effort to turn Draco away from the Dark Side.
Either for Draco's own sake or in order to use him against Lucius and
Voldemort.

Paul Hanbury wrote:
> For example, would Draco have been chaser for Slytherin
> had his father not provided the funds for new brooms?

Seeker, as someone already said. Draco seems to have been quite a good
Seeker: in PoA, he won three of the four matches he was in, and would
have won the fourth except that Harry had that Firebolt:

"And then he saw something to make his heart stand still. Malfoy
was diving, a look of triumph on his face -- there, a few feet above
the grass below, was a tiny, golden glimmer -
     Harry urged the Firebolt downward, but Malfoy was miles ahead -
     "Go! Go! Go!" Harry urged his broom. He was gaining on Malfoy --
Harry flattened himself to the broom handle as Bole sent a Bludger at
him -- he was at Malfoy's ankles -- he was level --
     Harry threw himself forward, took both hands off his broom. He
knocked Malfoy's arm out of the way and --
     "YES!"
     He pulled out of his dive, his hand in the air, and the stadium
exploded. Harry soared above the crowd, an odd ringing in his ears.
The tiny golden ball was held tight in his fist, beating its wings
hopelessly against his fingers."

"He knocked Malfoy's arm out of the way ... he pulled out of his dive
..." My point is, only a Firebolt could pull of a dive THAT sharply and
fast. If Harry had had 'merely' a Nimbus 2001, he might have grabbed the
Snitch out of Draco's hand, but would have crashed hard into the ground
immediately thereafter, thus releasing the Snitch for Draco to catch
again.

Elizabeth C wrote:
>  Who taught Voldemort the Dark Arts?? I mean, I think
> he was self-taught a lot of the later stuff, but he needed
> someone to ground him in the basics.

In my opinion, the basics of Dark Arts are the same as the basics of
non-Dark magic. Having learned the basics of magic at Hogwarts, Tom
Riddle (the future Voldemort) could have learned the rest first from
book and then by experiment. He have found some of those books in the
Restricted Section of Hogwarts library. The charming Tom Riddle could
have talked any teacher but Dumbledore into signing his permission slip
for the Restricted Section -- perhaps it was his book choices that first
made Dumbledore suspicious of him. If he had gotten into the graces of
the Mr. Malfoy of his day, he could have found more Dark Arts books in
the library of Malfoy Manor. Probably also Dark Arts equipment. Maybe a
Malfoy as Dark Arts teacher -- co-experimentor seems more likely.

Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> The truth is that we have no real idea where either the
> Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff common rooms are.

I got the feeling that the Ravenclaw common room is down in the
dungeons, from the CoS scene in which polyjuiced Harry and Ron are
looking for the Slytherin common room and run into Penelope the
Ravenclaw prefect. I don't think that Ravenclaws deserve to be put in
the dungeon. I somehow got the feeling that the Hufflepuff common room
is near the kitchens. That would be appropriate for the practical and
earthy nature of Hufflepuffs, an argument which would lead the Ravenclaw
common room to be near the library, and the Gryffindor common room to be
near Hagrid's pets. So much for that theory.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From deeblite at home.com  Fri May 11 15:23:06 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:23:06 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
In-Reply-To: <9dgr01+93e6@eGroups.com>
References: <013301c0d9b6$393abd40$a511eda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010511112046.00a36eb0@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18543

At 01:55 PM 5/11/01 +0000, you wrote:

>My cousin did change her lastname to her mothers, and her father
>isn't even the worst case I've known. So what if Snape's mother
>wasn't James' mother? And what if James didn't know before his death
>that Snape had turned into good side? Or what if James had changed
>his lastname because of evil forefathers? What if, what if...I stop
>it here... =)

Remember,though- when Harry looked into the Mirror of Erised, he saw all of 
his relatives- and he didn't see Snape amongst them




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May 11 15:34:11 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:34:11 -0000
Subject: Hagrid, Questions, # of Teachers
In-Reply-To: <9dg1iq+rqhg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dh0pj+ramp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18544

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Clarifications 
> Hagrid was 13 when the chamber was first opened. 
> He would be in his sixties now. 
> Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before Hagrid became 
> the groundskeeper. I believe she mentioned the old 
> groundskeeper in GoF.  
> 
> Questions 
> Did Hagrid go to Azkaban when expelled from Hogwarts? 
> How long was Hagrid in Azkaban? 
> How long between getting expelled and working at Hogwarts? 
> Was Dumbledore Headmaster for Arthur and Molly? 
> 
> 
> Not enough teachers? 
> We may not hear about all of them. Harry goes to each class 
> once or twice a week. Instructors could teach 3-4 classes a 
> day for a total of 15-20 classes a week. Enough to cover 4 
> houses one or two at a time. However, there could be another 
> potions instructor. 'can open, worms everywhere'  
> 
> 
> Bugg 
> I read someone else's post about making a wand for Holloween, 
> I am glad I am not the only one. I fashioned mine out of 
> Hibiscus wood.




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri May 11 16:47:27 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:47:27 -0000
Subject: Knight Bus (was POA Chapters 3 and 4)
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F721bTVn2AI3F50000282c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dh52v+jkgs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18545

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> 
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> > > Does the Knight Bus only run at night?  That idea
> > > got planted in my
> > > head when I thought it was Night Bus and has never
> > > gotten uprooted.
> > >
> > > Amy Z
> 
> "Knight Bus" is a play on "Night Bus" - Night Buses run through the 
night in 
> London and, after the Tube and trains stop running (around 
midnight) are the 
> only public transport available.  They are a very welcome sight 
when they 
> (eventually) turn up to take you home, and are the traditional red 
> double-deckers, so it can feel as if a knight in shining armour has 
come to 
> rescue you :).  The roads being clearer at that time of night, once 
you are 
> out of the centre, the bus bounces along at a considerable pace, 
for a bus, 
> tree-branches rattle along the roof and you're sure the driver's 
never going 
> to make that corner (but he always does) so the whole experience is 
not 
> unlike the Knight Bus - apart from the comfortable beds, panelling 
and 
> chandeliers, of course!  I also loved the name Ernie Prang - 
"prang" is old 
> RAF (based on Malay, I think) slang for "crash", extended to road 
traffic, 
> and is associated with a rather insouciant attitude to crashes, as 
in 
> "pranged the Jag last week - what a bore!".  The Knight Bus is 
another 
> example of JKR finding the magic in the everyday, or, in this case, 
every 
> night :)
> 

I want to thank Morag ENTHUSIASTICALLY for that extremely interesting 
and informative post.  It has made me wonder:  Are there other 
"Britishisms" in the books that we furriners are missing?  Aside 
from, of course, the words like "jumper" that mean something 
different.  I know that anyone who is not British wouldnt get the 
fact that "Spellotape" is a joke on "Sellotape," which we Americans 
call "Scotch Tape" -- I only know this because it was explained to 
me.  What other "in-jokes" have we missed?  

-- Joywitch






From joym999 at aol.com  Fri May 11 16:53:55 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:53:55 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2
Message-ID: <9dh5f3+eto9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18546

Hello, all.  I hope you are feeling artistic, because this week we 
have a creative contest.  But first, the rules:

1.  Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email 
address, which is HP4GUCon at aol.com.  RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED 
TO THE LIST.  Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers, to 
the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest, 
sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to eat 
bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST.

2.  Contests will be posted on Fridays.  Responses should be sent by 
email to HP4GUCon at aol.com by midnight Tuesday night (EST).  For 
puzzle contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who 
submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted on 
Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest).  For creative and speculative 
contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a 
random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular 
contest.

OK, here is the contest:

Can you write bad poetry?  Of course you can!  I'll bet you have, 
too.  Here's your golden opportunity to put those skills to work once 
again.  This week's contest is to write a poem about a character in 
the HP universe.  Write any sort of poem at all, using any sort of 
formal structure or rhyme scheme, or none at all, as you prefer.  
Here's some examples, by yours truly:

First, a haiku:

   Ugh.  Draco Malfoy.
   Evil, unredeemable
   I do not like him.

And, even worse, this awkward limerick:

   George Weasley has a twin named Fred.
   By whom he is usually led.
   Some people say
   George must be gay.
   But I really don't get how they came up with that thread.

Think you can do better?  (You could hardly do worse.)  Get to it!  
Send me your poems, BY EMAIL of course (to HP4GUCon at aol.com), NOT BY 
POSTING THEM TO THE LIST!

BTW, if you can actually write good poetry, that's even better!  I 
will leave you with JKR's gem about everyone's favorite young wizard:

   His eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad.
   His hair is as dark as a blackboard.
   I wish he was mine, he's really divine,
   The hero who conquered the Dark Lord.

--Joywitch




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 17:00:15 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP4GU Contest #2
In-Reply-To: <9dh5f3+eto9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010511170015.26383.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18547


--- joym999 at aol.com wrote:
> Can you write bad poetry?  Of course you can!  I'll bet you have, 
> too.  Here's your golden opportunity to put those skills to work once
> again.  This week's contest is to write a poem about a character in 
> the HP universe.  Write any sort of poem at all, using any sort of 
> formal structure or rhyme scheme, or none at all, as you prefer.  

Joywitch, how many poems are we allowed to submit? Is it only one or
can there be more? One never knows when the Muse will strike!

~Amber


=====
"toil, toil, toil, toil, toil,
TOIL!
the world is NOT made of money;
it's made of plants, roots, trees,
breaths of air, lizards darting in the leaves..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri May 11 17:05:48 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:05:48 -0000
Subject: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
In-Reply-To: <20010511141818.56442.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9dh65c+e0n0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18548

Deelite wrote:

Remember,though- when Harry looked into the Mirror of Erised, he saw 
all of his relatives- and he didn't see Snape amongst them.

No, he didn?t see the Dursleys (because they?re still alive, 
supposedly - same goes for Snape so far). Unless you claim he didn?t 
see them because they were dead, but because they were unknown to him 
and his deepest desire was to see his *unknown* family. But then Snape 
would have been in it, too.

No, that settles it. Get that thought out of your heads, people.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Angela Boyko <ochfd42 at y...> wrote:
>
> Not to mention that if Snape is Lily's brother, that
> would make him a Mudblood. I cannot imagine that the
> head of Slytherin house would be Muggle-born!

Serve them right!!!




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 17:09:57 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:09:57 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <3AFB7813.C91F6B9F@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9dh6d5+c69g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18549

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve <crowswolf at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> Haggridd wrote:
> 
> > This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy (eggonmyhead at h...), who was
> > kind enough to allow me to post it here.  As we all know, the last
> > word of the seventh book is supposed to be "scar."  The contest is 
to
> > write that last sentence, and state the rationale that would make 
it
> > the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen by 
acclamation.
> > Any takers?
> >
> > Haggridd
> >
> > ___
> 
> I'll have a go....
> 
> "They sped along the grounds of Hogwarts, the night sky above them a 
glorious black; the colour of a ravens wing. Harry, Ron and Hermione 
stopped to catch their breathe, the danger over, the moment passed. 
The stars above were beautiful.
> Shining beacons of magic hoisted up in the air and held there by 
some unknown force. And the moon.
> 
> The moon hung above them, father to all the magic stars A pale 
lightning bolt of a moon, hidden behind misty clouds. Hermione would 
often wonder later on where the thought came from, but the moon, it's 
magic bidding them to follow, looked
> just like Harry's scar."
> 
> 
> Okay, that's pretty good if I do say so myself for 1:30 in the 
morning. How'd I do?
> 
> 
I think you did pretty well, but you wrote far more than the requisite 
last sentence.  I think you still do well if you use only the last 
paragraph, and substitute a semicolon for the period.

Haggridd
p.s. and shouldn't it be "Wesley", not "Westley" in your signature 
quote from "The Princess Bride?"




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 17:11:38 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:11:38 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9dgifr+948b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dh6ga+aeqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18550

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> 
> > Haggridd wrote:
> > 
> > > This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy (eggonmyhead at h...), who was
> > > kind enough to allow me to post it here.  As we all know, the 
last
> > > word of the seventh book is supposed to be "scar."  The contest 
is 
> to
> > > write that last sentence, and state the rationale that would 
make 
> it
> > > the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen by 
> acclamation.
> > > Any takers?
> > >
> > > Haggridd
> 
> You can say what you like, but I?m utterly convinced it can be 
nothing 
> but:
> 
> "And then, standing on the tip of her toes, she reached up to put 
her 
> arms around his neck, and kissed him, softly and silently, on his 
> scar."

Great last sentence, but you need to supply your rationale, including 
telling us who "she" is.

Haggridd




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 17:26:21 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:26:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010511112046.00a36eb0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <20010511172621.33025.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18551

> Remember,though- when Harry looked into the Mirror of Erised, he
> saw all of his relatives- and he didn't see Snape amongst them
> 

I don't really believe Snape is Harry's uncle but, playing Devil's
Advocate for a moment, might it not be that he wouldn't recognize a
cleaned-up, smiling, non-black-wearing Snape?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From catlady at wicca.net  Fri May 11 17:32:52 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:32:52 -0000
Subject: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*" (+ Dreams)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010511112046.00a36eb0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9dh7o4+10tgs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18552

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote:

> Remember,though- when Harry looked into the Mirror of Erised, he
> saw all of his relatives- and he didn't see Snape amongst them

Except for James and Lily, I am not convinced that the people whom 
Harry saw in the Mirror were real people who ever existed. The Mirror 
figures out what the viewer's heart's desire is, and then comes 
up with an image that the viewer will recognize as hiser heart's 
desire. It has to be recognizable, not it has to be true. Harry's 
deepest desire was family (extended family, blood kin). 

So the Mirror showed him people he would recognize as family. 

He (perhaps unconsciously) remembered what his parents looked like 
(he had seen them quite often in his first 1.5 years) so the Mirror 
picked up accurate pictures of them from his mind. 

For the rest, I think the Mirror simply generated pictures of people 
of various ages who resembled Harry. "There he was, reflected in it, 
white and scared-looking, and there, reflected behind him, were at 
least ten others. (snip) Harry looked into the faces of the other 
people in the mirror, and saw other pairs of green eyes like his, 
other noses like his, even a little old man who looked as though he 
had Harry's knobbly knees -- Harry was looking at his family, for the 
first time in his life. The Potters smiled and waved at Harry." Harry 
got his green eyes from his mother, so it would be quite a 
co-incidence if some of his Potter ancestors had those same green 
eyes. 

The Mirror generating pictures based on little scraps of 
information in the mind would be working the same way that the mind 
generates dreams. Here is the dream Harry has before the big G-S 
Quidditch match:

"Harry slept badly. First he dreamed that he had overslept, and that 
Wood was yelling, "Where were you? We had to use Neville instead!" 
Then he dreamed that Malfoy and the rest of the Slytherin team 
arrived for the match riding dragons. He was flying at breakneck 
speed, trying to avoid a spurt of flames from Malfoy's steed's mouth, 
when he realized he had forgotten his Firebolt. He fell through the 
air and woke with a start."

"It was a few seconds before Harry remembered that the match hadn't 
taken place yet, that he was safe in bed, and that the Slytherin 
team definitely wouldn't be allowed to play on dragons. He was 
feeling very thirsty. Quietly as he could, he got out of his 
four-poster and went to pour himself some water from the silver jug 
beneath the window."

I don't think the above was a prophetic dream, just a sign of a 
worried mind, and I assumed that the Quirrell's turban dream and the 
following something silvery dream were also just normal dreams about 
what the waking mind is worrying about.  




From dorband at uwp.edu  Fri May 11 17:44:31 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:44:31 -0000
Subject: HP and Psychiatrists
Message-ID: <9dh8dv+ofgk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18553

Hi all,

FYI,

This is a real interesting - and positive - news article about how 
psychitrists are using Harry Potter to help troubled kids.


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010508/en/harry_potter_psychiatrists
_1.html


Brian




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 17:51:05 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:51:05 -0000
Subject: Single Adults in HP
In-Reply-To: <9d3icn+6vqm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dh8q9+vruq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18554

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> My personal theory about the apparent singleness of most of the
> adults in HP is simply that if they all had their own families to
> deal with, they wouldn't be as focused on Harry as they are.

I think it's simpler than that.  I think it's quite possible that
many of the teachers were married and either lost their spouses
who were either killed by Voldemort or joined Voldemort.  Neither
possibility is pleasant and I think that it's not the sort of thing
in either case that you'd want to bring up in class.

....Craig





From bohners at pobox.com  Fri May 11 18:00:18 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:00:18 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"
References: <9dh65c+e0n0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01a301c0da44$a3bbd080$27bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18555

Deelite wrote:

>Remember,though- when Harry looked into the Mirror of Erised, he saw
all of his relatives- and he didn't see Snape amongst them.<

To which Lea added:

>No, he didnt see the Dursleys (because theyre still alive,
supposedly - same goes for Snape so far). Unless you claim he didnt
see them because they were dead, but because they were unknown to him
and his deepest desire was to see his *unknown* family. But then Snape
would have been in it, too.<

You really think that Harry Potter's heart's desire would be to find out
that Snape was a part of his family?  Any more than his heart's desire was
to see the Dursleys in that mirror -- despite the fact that they, too, are
his biological relatives?

The mirror showed Harry what he wanted to see:  not necessarily a false
image, but certainly a selective one.  Harry was seeing only what he really
longed for -- relatives who would love him, approve of him, be happy to see
him, and welcome him into their midst.  Neither the Dursleys nor Snape (if
Snape is a relative, which I think he might be) could possibly fit into that
category.

Note also, that although the mirror shows you what you want to see most, it
is not necessarily factual, revelatory, or accurately predictive.  Ron saw
his heart's desire in the mirror -- to be better than his brothers at
everything -- but do any of us think that's really going to come true?

So I don't think we can draw any firm conclusions from the Mirror of Erised.
All it really tells us is that Harry yearns for a real, loving family of his
own.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Fri May 11 17:53:46 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:53:46 -0000
Subject: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*" (+ Dreams)
In-Reply-To: <9dh7o4+10tgs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dh8va+oeqt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18556

Magda wrote:

<<I don't really believe Snape is Harry's uncle but, playing Devil's
 Advocate for a moment, might it not be that he wouldn't recognize a
cleaned-up, smiling, non-black-wearing Snape?<<

Like he didn?t recognise the short-haired, younger and healthy Sirius 
on his parents? wedding photo?

Good thought. But Snape still *isn?t* related to Harry.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> Except for James and Lily, I am not convinced that the people whom 
> Harry saw in the Mirror were real people who ever existed. The 
Mirror 
> figures out what the viewer's heart's desire is, and then comes 
> up with an image that the viewer will recognize as hiser heart's 
> desire. It has to be recognizable, not it has to be true. Harry's 
> deepest desire was family (extended family, blood kin). 

Don?t agree. The real bad thing Voldemort did to him is take his 
family (his closer family in any case), so his deepest desire is to 
see it undone, although he knows it can?t be. This wish to undo 
things is extended to his whole family rather that to his parents 
only. 

Harry?s desire also is to find a place where he really belongs, where 
people accept him as he is and share his thoughts, ideas and feelings. 
Living with the Dursleys, he?s never had that. The people in the 
mirror represent this idea by sharing some of his physical 
characteristics, IMO.





From vryce1974 at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 17:56:09 2001
From: vryce1974 at yahoo.com (Paul)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:56:09 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9df3ug+v9dm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dh93p+ns2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18557

I like the one that ended with a girl reaching on her toes to kiss the
scar on Harry's forehead. A nice, sweet way to end it. I assume that
the girl would be Ginny.

Now, for my own last line. :)


Walking towards the Hogwart's Express, Harry looked back to see the
smiling faces of all the professors he had spent seven glorious years
with. Among them, were the spirits of James and Lily Potter and
Cedric, all smiling and very pleased that Harry had grown to be a fine
wizard.
And with a touch, Harry put a hand to his brow, feeling the warmth
flow through his body, as the bright sunlight fell upon his scar.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy (eggonmyhead at h...), who was 
> kind enough to allow me to post it here.  As we all know, the last 
> word of the seventh book is supposed to be "scar."  The contest is
to 
> write that last sentence, and state the rationale that would make it 
> the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen by
acclamation.
> Any takers?
> 
> Haggridd




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri May 11 18:02:07 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:02:07 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2 CLARIFICATION
In-Reply-To: <20010511170015.26383.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9dh9ev+r3j7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18558

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- joym999 at a... wrote:
> > Can you write bad poetry?  Of course you can!  I'll bet you have, 
> > too.  Here's your golden opportunity to put those skills to work 
once
> > again.  This week's contest is to write a poem about a character 
in 
> > the HP universe.  Write any sort of poem at all, using any sort 
of 
> > formal structure or rhyme scheme, or none at all, as you prefer.  
> 
> Joywitch, how many poems are we allowed to submit? Is it only one or
> can there be more? One never knows when the Muse will strike!
> 


Despite the fact that my initial response to Amber's question is ''Uh-
oh!'', I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you can 
submit as many poems as you like.

--Joywitch, who is looking forward to reading Amber's Book of Harry 
Potter Poetry.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 18:13:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:13:01 -0000
Subject: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*" - 1492 - Uni - Wands
Message-ID: <9dha3d+aei7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18559

little Alex wrote:

>Petunia (sp) would have mentioned having a brother.

If he were a wizard, I doubt the Dursleys would ever mention him.

However, I say this only to nitpick.  I don't I believe for 1/10 of a 
second that Snape is related to Harry.  His only resemblance to James 
is black hair, and his resemblance to Lily is nil, and Star Wars-esque 
revelations give me hives besides (ROFL at your subject heading, 
Dave!).

Craig wrote:

>Was it 1492 or 1592?  400+1492=1892, not 1992.

Good math (better than Jo's).  It's a Flint.  In PS/SS 7 he says he 
hasn't eaten in nearly 400 years, but in CS 8 the cake says 1492 
(nice, easy-to-remember date).

Cait and corgis wrote:

>I sort of figured she meant "No, I'm not writing any more Harry books 
after 
>the 7th" type of thing, actually. No Harry at uni, type thing. Maybe?

IIRC, she has said both:  both that she isn't going to write about 
Harry past 7th year, at least for the foreseeable future--she does 
have other books in her that she wants to write--and that there is no 
wizarding university.

Ashley K. wrote (welcome out of lurkdom, Ashley!):

>Has anyone tried the Ollivander shop on the Official Site yet. I did 
>and I am embarassed because my wand is 13'' long. It is huge! 

Now, I hear a Ford Anglia motor revving, so I hasten to say that I'm 
getting right back to canon.  Ashley:  does the website ask how tall 
you are?  In canon, there seems to be a rough correlation between 
one's height and the length of one's wand.

Ex. from shortest to longest:

Harry's is 11"
James's was 11" (we know he was tall when an adult, but if he bought 
it when he was 11...)
Cedric's is 12 1/4"
Voldemort's is 13 1/2" and we know he was tall as a boy
Ron's new one is 14"
Hagrid's was 16"

Viktor and Fleur don't fit in; both of their wands are shorter than 
Harry's, though the people are taller.  Lily's is shorter than Harry's 
as well; we have no idea how her height at 11 compared to his.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion
 by turning into a large canary.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May 11 18:24:23 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:24:23 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
Message-ID: <54.1454752e.282d8857@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18560

(can I cheat and make it two sentances?)
Harry looked back at Hogwarts sadly...he knew that he'd never be able to come 
back here again even if he wanted to.  Thanks to Madame Pomfrey none of his 
wounds were visible or hurting any more.  The only thing that was left to 
remind him of his battle was the slight trobbing of his scar...

reason: I'm a huge fan of the 
'big-battle-in-the-final-moments-of-the-story-where-the-hero-then-wins-and-wal

ks-away' stereotypical scenario.....
DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri May 11 18:43:09 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:43:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
References: <9dh93p+ns2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01da01c0da4a$53d3d300$27bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18561

"Wondering, Harry put a hand to his forehead.  There was no longer any trace
of a scar."

----

My rationale?  Harry's scar is the mark of Voldemort's curse, the first and
last thing that links them together.  We've already seen how the scar reacts
to the Dark Lord's presence, causing Harry pain and giving him troublesome
dreams and visions of You-Know-Who.  But if Voldemort were finally and
utterly defeated and destroyed, the ultimate proof would be that Harry no
longer had a scar.

Losing his scar would also make Harry blessedly and gloriously ordinary.  No
longer would he be identified on sight just by one quick glance at his
forehead.  And I suspect that by the time it's all over, Harry might be glad
for the opportunity to retreat to some quiet corner and enjoy a taste of
anonymity, much as Frodo does at the end of LOTR.

I know some might find it hard to believe that Harry could ever be a private
individual after defeating Voldemort -- certainly most post-Hogwarts fanfic
seems to assume he'll be some kind of internationally known celebrity.  But
I suspect that won't be the case.  We always seem to assume that the final
showdown will be some big public event, and that Harry's role as Voldemort's
destroyer will be obvious to everyone:  it might well be quite the opposite.
After all, every one of Harry's confrontations with V. so far has been
fairly private.  GoF, with the Death Eaters in attendance, was the most
public showdown yet -- and even that wasn't exactly common knowledge in the
wizarding community.  Fudge flat-out refused to believe there was a word of
truth in it, which I think may well be foreshadowing for how others will
react to the news of Voldemort's rebirth -- let alone his final defeat.  So,
Harry might very indeed be able to gain anonymity by losing his scar.

I'll stop blathering now.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From moragt at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 18:36:43 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:36:43 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Location of the Hufflepuff Common Room
Message-ID: <LAW2-F16bl5CdQ0KAlO00005041@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18562

Steve wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer" <jennifer.k at l...> wrote:
> >
> > > But it got me thinking of something I read in Chamber of Secrets,
> > > chapter 11, page 148, when Ernie McMillian is telling his fellow
> > > Hufflepuffs: "...I told Justin to hide up in our dormitory
>
>I think he's saying "hide up" as in "hide out," maybe.
>
>The Hufflepuff common room may very well BE up. We don't have any
>idea where Cedric went after he went through that door. He may have
>gone up another longer staircase after he went down one. The truth is
>that we have no real idea where either the Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff
>common rooms are.

As a Brit, I'd interpret that as hide "up in our dormitory", implying that 
the dormitory is on a higher floor than the speaker was, at the time.  We 
know the rooms, stairs and corridors can move around, though I'd imagine the 
House areas of Common Room and bedrooms would stay put.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 19:36:16 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:36:16 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <01da01c0da4a$53d3d300$27bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9dhevg+b8mk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18563

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...> 
wrote:
> "Wondering, Harry put a hand to his forehead.  There was no longer 
any trace
> of a scar."
> 
> ----
> 
> My rationale?  Harry's scar is the mark of Voldemort's curse, the 
first and
> last thing that links them together.  We've already seen how the 
scar reacts
> to the Dark Lord's presence, causing Harry pain and giving him 
troublesome
> dreams and visions of You-Know-Who.  But if Voldemort were finally 
and
> utterly defeated and destroyed, the ultimate proof would be that 
Harry no
> longer had a scar.
> 
> Losing his scar would also make Harry blessedly and gloriously 
ordinary.  No
> longer would he be identified on sight just by one quick glance at 
his
> forehead.  And I suspect that by the time it's all over, Harry might 
be glad
> for the opportunity to retreat to some quiet corner and enjoy a 
taste of
> anonymity, much as Frodo does at the end of LOTR.
> 
> I know some might find it hard to believe that Harry could ever be a 
private
> individual after defeating Voldemort -- certainly most post-Hogwarts 
fanfic
> seems to assume he'll be some kind of internationally known 
celebrity.  But
> I suspect that won't be the case.  We always seem to assume that the 
final
> showdown will be some big public event, and that Harry's role as 
Voldemort's
> destroyer will be obvious to everyone:  it might well be quite the 
opposite.
> After all, every one of Harry's confrontations with V. so far has 
been
> fairly private.  GoF, with the Death Eaters in attendance, was the 
most
> public showdown yet -- and even that wasn't exactly common knowledge 
in the
> wizarding community.  Fudge flat-out refused to believe there was a 
word of
> truth in it, which I think may well be foreshadowing for how others 
will
> react to the news of Voldemort's rebirth -- let alone his final 
defeat.  So,
> Harry might very indeed be able to gain anonymity by losing his 
scar.
> 
> I'll stop blathering now.
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner
> rebeccaj at p...
> http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj

Rebecca, that is the most original last sentence I have read.  It is a 
little early to proclaim a winner, but so far your sentence--and 
accompanying rationale-- has my vote.

Haggridd




From lizscford at aol.com  Fri May 11 19:35:38 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:35:38 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
Message-ID: <74.a7a975c.282d990a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18564

one heck of an explaination...i like it!


DARLA/LIZ/BETH
Darla: "...I know a thing or two about mind games. ...We played them together 
for over a century."
Cordy: "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're lawyers."

Angel: "She's right. We were amateurs." 
. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, 
- then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. 
 <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html">Psyche: Buffy Transcripts</A>  <A HREF="http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html">Psyche: Angel Transcripts</A> 
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/buffy.html
http://www.psyche.kn-bremen.de/angel.html 
http://members.aol.com/LRL94/buffy.html  -early bird spoilers
<A HREF="http://swansongs.net/stigmata/spikesspike.html">A d d i c t i v e S t i g m a t a</A>
<A HREF="http://www.sabershadowkitten.com">www.sabershadowkitten.com</A> 
<A HREF="http://welcome.to/lovesbitch">lovesbitch</A> (http://welcome.to/lovesbitch)
AIM ID: lizscford
MSN ID: darla_1753
yahoo id: darla_1753


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 20:09:58 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:09:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Scar ending...
In-Reply-To: <989580874.19961.7878.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010511200958.3065.qmail@web3003.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18565

Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:15:44 -0000
   From: "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com>
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.

>>>This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy
(eggonmyhead at hotmail.com), who was 
kind enough to allow me to post it here.  As we all
know, the last 
word of the seventh book is supposed to be "scar." 
The contest is to 
write that last sentence, and state the rationale that
would make it 
the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen
by acclamation.
Any takers?
>>>

"And as Harry walked off, battered and briused, he
turned around for a brief moment and they all saw--
still prominently burned onto his forehead between his
bangs--the scar."

No reason. No logic. It just sounds cool.

--Neth

=====
http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. 
Two girls. 
One Website. 
Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri May 11 20:19:12 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:19:12 -0000
Subject: The Scar ending...
In-Reply-To: <20010511200958.3065.qmail@web3003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9dhhg0+po31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18566

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Nethilia De Lobo <nethilia at y...> wrote:
> Message: 6
>    Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:15:44 -0000
>    From: "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...>
> Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
> 
> >>>This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy
> (eggonmyhead at h...), who was 

> The contest is to 
> write that last sentence, and state the rationale that
> would make it 
> the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen
> by acclamation.
> Any takers?
> >>>
> 

When she learned how everything was finally resolved, of all the 
great heroism that bought Voldemort to his final demise, the Fat Lady 
was so deeply moved that she, for the first time in Hogwarts history, 
burst into song.

"I guess we all know what that means," said Harry, fingering his scar.

   - CMC




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Fri May 11 20:33:15 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 May 2001 20:33:15 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <989613195.1387.700.h9@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18567


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Song Parodies/Pretty Fly.htm 
  Uploaded by : colin at ccomm.com 
  Description : Parody of the Offspring's "Pretty Fly (For a White Guy," by Colin. 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Song%20Parodies/Pretty%20Fly.htm 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

colin at ccomm.com
 







From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri May 11 20:58:15 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:58:15 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*" (+ Dreams)
In-Reply-To: <9dh7o4+10tgs@eGroups.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010511112046.00a36eb0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010511135735.00d89140@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18568

At 05:32 PM 5/11/01 +0000, Rita Winston wrote:
>It has to be recognizable, not it has to be true. Harry's
>deepest desire was family (extended family, blood kin).
>
>So the Mirror showed him people he would recognize as family.

I like this theory -- it also explains why he didn't see the
Dursleys in the mirror.



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri May 11 21:04:34 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:04:34 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Merlin -  Dumbledore/McGonagall - What Dumbledore Knows - Snape in Love  - Draco - Voldemort - Ravenclaw Common Room
In-Reply-To: <3AFC003C.D8221F9A@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010511140104.030d1640@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18569

At 08:07 AM 5/11/01 -0700, Catlady wrote:
>On another
>tentacle, if Snape knows that Lucius is a very bad wizard, he could make
>a pet of Draco in an effort to turn Draco away from the Dark Side.
>Either for Draco's own sake or in order to use him against Lucius and
>Voldemort.

Snape doesn't seem to have made much progress in four years,
based on Malfoy's Wicked-Witch-of-the-West "The last to go will
see the first two go before him!" speech at the end of GoF...

It occurs to me that since Lucius is so anxious to show everyone
that he really on the side of Light, if he could have heard his
son shooting his mouth off about the Dark Lord on the train
*he* would have hexed him too!




                         -- Dave




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 21:19:46 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:19:46 -0000
Subject: Harry and Draco
In-Reply-To: <8e.154272b8.2828aabc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dhl1i+hvsu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18570

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., browneyes1420 at a... wrote:
> I think Malfoy will havve to make a great choise between light and
> dark, good and evil. I also think that he will choose light. Could
> Snape be his  (malfoy's) godfather??? If Draco betrays the dark
> side I believe there a conflict between him and Luicius (Lucifer??,
> the devil...I thought there were no religious references), in which
> Harry will stand by him (bk 7) 

This is the kind of inference that makes Alexander Pope's comment
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, [....]" relevant.

browneyes, the word "lux" in Latin means "light".

"Lucius" is derived from "lux" as is "Lucifer", but naming the
character "Lucius" does not mean that we should think "Lucifer",
or infer religious overtones.

For what it's worth, in the New Testament, Lucius was a Christian 
teacher at Antioch (Acts 13:1) and Paul's kinsman (Rom. 16:21).

As for the name "Lucifer", it means "bearer of light" and referred
to the planet Venus as the morning star.  It was used by Isaiah to
refer to a Babylonian king, and was later interpreted by Tertullian
to have been used metaphorically to refer to Satan.

....Craig (citing dictionary.com on "Lucius" and "Lucifer")




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 21:32:00 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:32:00 -0000
Subject: Britishisms (was Knight Bus)
In-Reply-To: <9dh52v+jkgs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dhlog+5te7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18571

Joywitch wrote:
> 
> I want to thank Morag ENTHUSIASTICALLY for that extremely 
interesting 
> and informative post.  

Me too!

It has made me wonder:  Are there other 
> "Britishisms" in the books that we furriners are missing?  Aside 
> from, of course, the words like "jumper" that mean something 
> different.  I know that anyone who is not British wouldnt get the 
> fact that "Spellotape" is a joke on "Sellotape," which we Americans 
> call "Scotch Tape" -- I only know this because it was explained to 
> me.  What other "in-jokes" have we missed?

Literally 30 seconds before I got to Morag's post, I had sent a 
request to Neil and Doreen, the dynamite duo who bring us Strictly 
British (available, like so many wonderful things, on the Lexicon, 
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/strictly_british1.html), to add 
some of these things when they get the chance.  I even used Spellotape 
as my example, having gotten it only when I read the British ed. of 
book 1 (where we learn that Harry's glasses are held together with 
Sellotape.  I said AHA!).  Unlike terms such as "knickerbocker glory," 
which we =know= we don't understand, plays on words like this go right 
over our heads and we don't even know we missed them.

I just thought I'd post this here to put some gentle pressure on 
Doreen & Neil to help the poor beknighted (pun intended) non-Brits as 
soon as they get a free moment.

Amy Z

P.S. If you want to chime in with more Britishisms The Rest of Us 
Might Have Missed, send 'em to OT-Chatter

---------------------------------------------------
 Many people said he hadn't noticed he was dead.
                   -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 21:43:17 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:43:17 -0000
Subject: Hagrid in Azkaban
Message-ID: <9dhmdl+4nl5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18572

Help!  A tip-of-the-tongue memory is driving me crazy.  I know I read 
a sentence just the other day saying that Hagrid had been in Azkaban 
twice.  I'm all-but-certain it's from one of the books (3 or 4, of 
course).  Two questions:

(1) Can you direct me to the source?  *Was* it in the books?

and (2) Is this a Flint, or is it a clue, or did Hagrid really get 
sent to Azkaban when he was expelled?  If so, how was he 
released--purely through Dumbledore's influence?

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
 Mountain trolls can occasionally be seen mounted on 
 Graphorns, though the latter do not seem to take 
 kindly to attempts to tame them and it is more 
 common to see a troll covered in Graphorn scars.
           -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
-----------------------------------------------------
 




From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 21:57:58 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:57:58 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Harry, I am your *Uncle*" - 1492 - Uni - Wands
References: <9dha3d+aei7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c0da65$71e41920$9210eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 18573

Hello,

> If he were a wizard, I doubt the Dursleys would ever mention him.

Well, not in the sense that they would have long discussion about them, but
in the sense that instead of being disgusted about only Lily, they would be
disgusted about both Lily and Snape.  E.g. the whole first chapter of
Philosopher's Stone/Sorcerer's Stone, instead of just Lily, they would have
been hating both Lily and Snape.

Also, if Snape bear *any* relation to Harry, you'd think that Dumbledore
would know and *tell* Harry, right?  I mean, it's not like the case of
Sirius Black where he's in Azkablan.  We're talking about someone that Harry
sees everyday.  And even if Dumbledore doesn't, I'm sure no matter how much
Snape loathes his brother, he'd have mentioned that Harry is his nephew when
he felt enough responsibility to Harry to save his life.  And even if
neither of them feels like telling Harry, which I think is pretty unlikely,
I'm sure *someone* would have mentioned it, unless there's some great
conspiracy not to tell Harry, which is, again, pretty unlikely.

> However, I say this only to nitpick.  I don't I believe for 1/10 of a
> second that Snape is related to Harry.  His only resemblance to James

Thank you!

little Alex




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Fri May 11 22:05:57 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:05:57 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9dhevg+b8mk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dhno5+ms6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18574

Rebecca wrote:
"Wondering, Harry put a hand to his forehead.  There was no longer 
any trace of a scar."
<snip of long and incredibly reasonable rationle>

Haggridd wrote:
"Rebecca, that is the most original last sentence I have read.  It is 
a little early to proclaim a winner, but so far your sentence--and 
accompanying rationale-- has my vote."

--Tut, tut Rebecca! I don't suppose you'll like my sentence now 
Haggridd as it doesn't seem very original anymore, but I promise I 
had the idea before seeing Rebecca's.


His eyes were on Hermione, his best friend and life partner in a 
future he could only dream of, as his hand moved to trace the smooth 
forehead that had once borne a lightning bolt scar.

Don't like it? How about-

Harry climbed down from the steps of the Hogwarts Express, steam from 
its engine billowing in front of him; he no longer had to return to 
the Dursely's or worry about his fate as Voldemort was gone, and his 
future stretched before him like the softly curving lines of his scar.

or-

Harry and Hermione embraced long and emphatically knowing that they 
would spend the rest of their lives together, and for the first time 
in his life he forgot he had such a defining lightning bolt scar.

or-

"Harry your story is special, and I want to share it with the world." 
Hermione said, pen in hand and paper ready. "I'll write books about 
you, under a pen name of course, and every child in the world will 
know your name. There will be seven, one for each year at Hogwarts, 
and they'll be all about 'Harry the boy with a lightning bolt scar'!"

Ok these are rather stupid but...

Scott




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 11 22:16:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:16:57 -0000
Subject: D&H as Seekers - Ravenclaw location - Dreams - Lexicon
Message-ID: <9dhocp+1j04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18575

Catlady wrote:

>in PoA, he won three of the four matches he was in, and would
>have won the fourth except that Harry had that Firebolt <snip>

>"He knocked Malfoy's arm out of the way ... he pulled out of his dive
>..." My point is, only a Firebolt could pull of a dive THAT sharply 
and
>fast. If Harry had had 'merely' a Nimbus 2001, he might have grabbed 
the
>Snitch out of Draco's hand, but would have crashed hard into the 
ground
>immediately thereafter, thus releasing the Snitch for Draco to catch 
again.

Maybe, maybe not.  I agree that Draco is a very good Seeker, based on 
his record.  However, to give the Firebolt this much credit for 
Harry's victory seems a tad insulting to Harry's talent.  What in this 
passage indicates that he couldn't have done this on a Nimbus 2000?

>I got the feeling that the Ravenclaw common room is down in the
>dungeons, from the CoS scene in which polyjuiced Harry and Ron are
>looking for the Slytherin common room and run into Penelope the
>Ravenclaw prefect.

She was there for some privacy with Percy, whom Ron and Harry also run 
into there.

>I assumed that the Quirrell's turban dream and the following 
something silvery dream were also just normal dreams about 
>what the waking mind is worrying about.  

What about the sound of hooves in the latter?  Could be coincidence, 
but it seems so specific as to be prophetic. 

Mea culpa on referring people to a specific page of the Lexicon in my 
Britishisms post.  If you want to visit the Lexicon, and you do, 
believe me, go to the home page so Steve gets a hit:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/

Then make your way to whatever you're interested in.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
 "No one wants to read about some ugly old Armenian
 warlock, even if he did save a village from werewolves.  
 He'd look dreadful on the front cover.  No dress sense 
 at all."
                         -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------------




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 22:22:49 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:22:49 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Size (Sorry to bring this up again.)
Message-ID: <9dhonp+tgn9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18576

Okay, I'm just catching up ...
In SS/PS (pg. 113 US pbk) while Harry is waiting to be marched in for 
the Sorting, "Harry could hear the drone of HUNDREDS of voices coming 
from a door to the right -- the rest of the school must already be 
here -- ..."  Which supports the larger size argument.  I have to say 
I think Hogwarts is pretty good sized (around 1000).  And I know, I 
know, why don't we see more teachers, students, etc.  My answer is 
the classic Harry's POV argument.  For example, I graduated from the 
University of Kentucky (GO CATS!), where there are some 30,000 
students and around 1500 full-time facutly.  If you heard me tell 
many undergrad stories, you might come away thinking that there were 
only a few prof.s and a few students and only one bar.  Because, I 
just didn't know the people that took the Biology classes, and I only 
knew a handful of people in my massive dorm.  My POV focuses almost 
entirely on the History and Political Science Departments and 
classes -- and that's certainly not everyone who was there.  Okay, 
anecdotal evidence, I'm ready to be slammed.
Stephanie




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Fri May 11 22:33:17 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:33:17 -0000
Subject: Hagrid in Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <9dhmdl+4nl5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dhpbd+e4io@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18577

Firstly let me apologise for my obvious stupidity in my last post. I 
used Dursley's when it should have been Dursleys. I am ashamed but 
absolutely rufuse to walk blindfolded into the Whomping Willow; I 
already have enough of a headache.

Amy Z" wrote:
Help!  A tip-of-the-tongue memory is driving me crazy.  I know I read 
a sentence just the other day saying that Hagrid had been in Azkaban 
twice.  I'm all-but-certain it's from one of the books (3 or 4, of 
course).  Two questions:


(1) Can you direct me to the source?  *Was* it in the books?

--Yes it is from the books, and no you aren't crazy (In case you 
thought you imagined it). I read this the other day, and remember 
thinking the same thing to myself. The only problem is I have no idea 
where it is. I'm looking though, and I'm almost positive it's from 
book III. 

Argh! Can anybody help?

Scott






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri May 11 23:18:56 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:18:56 -0000
Subject: Hagrid in Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <9dhpbd+e4io@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dhs10+5t2p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18578

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:

> Amy Z" wrote:
> Help!  A tip-of-the-tongue memory is driving me crazy.  I know I read 
> a sentence just the other day saying that Hagrid had been in Azkaban 
> twice.  I'm all-but-certain it's from one of the books (3 or 4, of 
> course).  Two questions:
> 
> 
> (1) Can you direct me to the source?  *Was* it in the books?
> 
> --Yes it is from the books,<snip> and I'm almost positive it's from 
> book III. 
> 
> Argh! Can anybody help?
>
	I think you maybe are a mite confused...In PoA ch.11, Hagrid 
explains why he doesn't just let Buckbeak escape:

"An'--an' I'm scared o' breakin' the law..." He looked up at them, 
tears leading down his face again. "I don' ever want ter go back ter 
Azkaban." 

	I think this is the passage you are referring to, but it doesn't 
imply that Hagrid has been in Azk. more than once. You may have been 
misled by an earlier passage in which Hagrid says visiting Hogsmeade is 
is like being back in Azkaban again.

	"Gotta walk past [the dementors] ev'ry time I want a drink in the 
the Three Broomsticks. 'S like bein' back in Azkaban--" 

As far as I can tell Hagrid has done only one stint in Azk. when he was 
sent there as a precaution in CoS.

Pippin





From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 23:47:09 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:47:09 -0700
Subject: the wizard-muggle money exchange rate
Message-ID: <025801c0da74$bcd96840$9210eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 18579

Hello,

Well, ever since "Quidditch Through the Ages" and "Fantastic Beasts & Where
To Find Them" came out, the exchange rate is no longer a mystery.  I was
just wondering, when will the Lexicon be adding the information?  Or are
those rates considered official yet?

little Alex
http://www.slashyalex.com




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri May 11 23:58:53 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:58:53 -0000
Subject: New Contest & The Scar ending...
In-Reply-To: <9dhhg0+po31@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dhubt+7k1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18580

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Nethilia De Lobo <nethilia at y...> wrote:
> > Message: 6
> >    Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:15:44 -0000
> >    From: "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...>
> > Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
> > 
> > >>>This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy
> > (eggonmyhead at h...), who was 
> 
> > The contest is to 
> > write that last sentence, and state the rationale that
> > would make it 
> > the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen
> > by acclamation.
> > Any takers?
> > >>>
> > 
> 
> When she learned how everything was finally resolved, of all the 
> great heroism that bought Voldemort to his final demise, the Fat 
Lady 
> was so deeply moved that she, for the first time in Hogwarts 
history, 
> burst into song.
> 
> "I guess we all know what that means," said Harry, fingering his 
scar.
> 
>    - CMC

LOL!  Honorable mention, CMC, at the very least!  Try to make it one 
sentence, though.

Hagridd




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat May 12 01:03:47 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 01:03:47 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2
In-Reply-To: <9dh5f3+eto9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9di25j+fjkp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18581

Contest Clarification:

I am afraid one part of the contest may not have been clear.  The 
contest is to write a poem about a CHARACTER in the Harry Potter 
universe.  Any character at all -- Harry, Hermione, Uric the Oddball, 
whoever.  Poems about a group of characters are OK, too.

--Joywitch




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 12 01:23:25 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 01:23:25 -0000
Subject: Hagrid in Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <9dhs10+5t2p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9di3ad+gen2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18582

I found it! This is the passage that was confusing me-

"He, Harry, had broken the wizard law just like Sirius Black. Was 
inflating Aunt Marge bad enough to land him in Azkaban? Harry didn't 
know anything about the wizard prison, though everyone he'd ever 
heard speak of it did so in the same fearful tone.  Hagrid the 
Hogwarts gamekeeper, had spend two months there only last year..."

Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter three, page 40

Is this what you were thinking of Amy? I was so sick at the time that 
I guess I didn't remember it clearly. Then again it might just be my 
bad memory. 

But I was so sure...

Scott
Who apparently needs sleep badly




From mcandrew at bigpond.com  Sat May 12 01:37:30 2001
From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 01:37:30 -0000
Subject: Contest: Scar is permanent
In-Reply-To: <9dhevg+b8mk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9di44q+38q2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18583

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> 
> wrote:
> > "Wondering, Harry put a hand to his forehead.  There was no 
longer 
> any trace
> > of a scar."
> > 
> > Rebecca J. Bohner
> > rebeccaj at p...
> > http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj
> 
> Rebecca, that is the most original last sentence I have read.  It 
is a 
> little early to proclaim a winner, but so far your sentence--and 
> accompanying rationale-- has my vote.
> 
> Haggridd

I agree - sentence and rationale are great - but remember this 
passage in Book 1 (UK ed. p.16) -

"Inside, just visible, was a baby boy, fast asleep.  Under a tuft of 
jet-black hair over his forehead they could see a curiously shaped 
cut, like a bolt of lightning.
"Is that where - ? whispered Professor McGonagall.
"Yes," said Dumbledore. "He'll have that scar forever."...

Sorry to be a wet blanket!

Lama




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 02:17:06 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 02:17:06 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Contest: Scar is permanent
Message-ID: <LAW2-F142zCRoJUGYhb000055b3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18584

lama wrote:
> > > "Wondering, Harry put a hand to his forehead.  There was no
>longer
> > any trace
> > > of a scar."
> > >
> > > Rebecca J. Bohner
>
>I agree - sentence and rationale are great - but remember this
>passage in Book 1 (UK ed. p.16) -
>
>"Inside, just visible, was a baby boy, fast asleep.  Under a tuft of
>jet-black hair over his forehead they could see a curiously shaped
>cut, like a bolt of lightning.
>"Is that where - ? whispered Professor McGonagall.
>"Yes," said Dumbledore. "He'll have that scar forever."...
>
>Sorry to be a wet blanket!

Excellent point.  I loved Rebecca's sentence too - I'm not sure it *won't* 
be the actual last sentence.  I was certainly thinking along those lines.  
And what about this from Dumbledore: (COS 243, Brit)

"'I seem to remember telling you both that I would have to expel you if you 
broke any more school rules,' said Dumbledore.
Ron opened his mouth in horror.
'Which goes to show that the best of us must sometimes eat our words..."

My other fave is the "Fat Lady" entry - sorry I can't give the credit where 
it's due, but 50 points to that House ;)

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From bohners at pobox.com  Sat May 12 03:32:14 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:32:14 -0400
Subject: Contest:  It ain't necessarily so... (was:  Contest: Scar is permanent)
References: <LAW2-F142zCRoJUGYhb000055b3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <034a01c0da94$270926a0$27bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18585

> >"Yes," said Dumbledore. "He'll have that scar forever."...

> ...what about this from Dumbledore: (COS 243, Brit)
>
> "'I seem to remember telling you both that I would have to expel you if
you
> broke any more school rules,' said Dumbledore.
> Ron opened his mouth in horror.
> 'Which goes to show that the best of us must sometimes eat our words..."

And then there's Hagrid, who said with great confidence and authority that
there hadn't been a witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin --
a big fat whopper if ever I heard one.  I mean, does anybody take the idea
seriously that either Sirius Black (whom everybody including Hagrid believed
to be bad at the time) or Peter Pettigrew were in Slytherin?  So... no
offense, but I'm sticking with my theory until JKR directly contradicts it.
:)
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat May 12 03:34:07 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 03:34:07 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2
In-Reply-To: <9di25j+fjkp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9diavf+b0fc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18586

Are filks allowed?

Pippin





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat May 12 03:40:50 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 03:40:50 -0000
Subject: Movie: Coloring book hint?
Message-ID: <9dibc2+ncaj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18587

This week was the book fair at school and since it was a Scholastic 
affair, there were a few HP related items.  One of them was 
the "Beasts of Harry Potter" Coloring book. It comes with markers and 
blackline masters. And is pretty nice, too.

Anyway, one of the pictures is a scene with Fluffy.  There were *4* 
children in the picture--Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville. (As it 
should be.)  I know when the trailer first came out there was much 
nashing of teeth and worrying about whether or not Neville would be 
in that scene.  If the book is correct and can be considered a 
harbinger of the movie scene, then Neville has not been cut from the 
scene.  

Trina, discovering the joys of Book 1 on tape.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat May 12 03:46:05 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 03:46:05 -0000
Subject: last line -- I'm NOT a writer
Message-ID: <9diblt+mn8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18588

MY secret ambition is to play Arabella Figg in the movie -- Hey..
I already love cats, and I already drink Coke!...I'd be perfect.....

Anyway, my thoughts about the last line are:


Harry realized with deep relief that all that was left of Tom Riddle, 
once known as Lord Voldemort, was the deep throbbing pain in his scar.




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 03:48:55 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 03:48:55 -0000
Subject: Ravenclaw Common Room
In-Reply-To: <3AFC003C.D8221F9A@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9dibr7+2b3s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18589

Penelope was down in the dungeon area fooling around with Percy. 
Percy came around the corner only moments after Penelope. 
Harry and Ron expected her to be a slytherin because she was in 
the dungeon area. She stated her house to be Ravenclaw. She was 
further identified later when Harry saw her in the hospital. 

Somewhere it states that there entrance is guarded by a knight. 


Bugg 


Catlady wrote:
> 
> Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> > The truth is that we have no real idea where either the
> > Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff common rooms are.
> 
> I got the feeling that the Ravenclaw common room is down in the
> dungeons, from the CoS scene in which polyjuiced Harry and Ron are
> looking for the Slytherin common room and run into Penelope the
> Ravenclaw prefect. ..... 
> --
>           /\ /\
>            + +     Mews and views
>          >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston
> 
>                      ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
>                      `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
>                      (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
>                     _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
>                    ((('   (((-(((''  ((((




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sat May 12 03:47:31 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:47:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ravenclaw Common Room
References: <9dibr7+2b3s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01a501c0da96$46750e80$5b57d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 18590


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bugg" <bugganeer at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:48 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ravenclaw Common Room


> Penelope was down in the dungeon area fooling around with Percy.
> Percy came around the corner only moments after Penelope.
> Harry and Ron expected her to be a slytherin because she was in
> the dungeon area. She stated her house to be Ravenclaw. She was
> further identified later when Harry saw her in the hospital.
>
> Somewhere it states that there entrance is guarded by a knight.
>

The HP trivia game shows the Ravenclaw room as another tower room and is
guarded by a knight.

carole





From deeblite at home.com  Sat May 12 04:09:17 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 00:09:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*" (+ Dreams)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010511135735.00d89140@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <9dh7o4+10tgs@eGroups.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20010511112046.00a36eb0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010512000812.0301beb0@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18591

At 01:58 PM 5/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
>At 05:32 PM 5/11/01 +0000, Rita Winston wrote:
> >It has to be recognizable, not it has to be true. Harry's
> >deepest desire was family (extended family, blood kin).
> >
> >So the Mirror showed him people he would recognize as family.
>
>I like this theory -- it also explains why he didn't see the
>Dursleys in the mirror.


yeah but another explanatio for that is that the mirror only showed him the 
Potters.   And Lilly took the name Potter when she married James, so that 
would explain her presence




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 02:04:47 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 02:04:47 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Britishisms / thanks / currency (was Knight Bus)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F136x4vvsGOkev0000561d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18592

Amy Z & Joywitch wrote:

>Joywitch wrote:
> >
> > I want to thank Morag ENTHUSIASTICALLY for that extremely
>interesting
> > and informative post.
>
>Me too!

You're welcome :) (blushes, shuffles toe in dust)

>It has made me wonder:  Are there other
> > "Britishisms" in the books that we furriners are missing?

It's hard to know, unless it comes out of discussion.  I have learnt a lot 
of things from this list about Latin, Italian, Hindu goddesses, American 
children's lit, religion in Hong Kong, and fight songs, to name but a few - 
it's one of the joys of it.  So thanks to all for that.

One thing, that may be obvious enough, but that I particularly enjoy is the 
way JKR revels in the impracticality of wizard currency.

Hagrid, PS 58 (Brit):
"'The gold ones are Galleons,' he explained.  'Seventeen silver Sickles to a 
Galleon and twenty-nine Knuts to a Sickle, it's easy enough.'"

I suspect JKR shares my dislike of decimalisation, which has swept away 
almost all of our wealth of words for coins - no more tanners, bobs, 
threepenny (pronounced "thrupney") bits, no more half-crowns
or florins.  All gone with our twelve pence to the shilling and twenty 
shillings to the pound, which the Knuts, Sickles and Galleons so 
unmistakeably resemble.  Getting back on topic, I feel there was a trace of 
satire in Ron's reaction to our ugly, pocket-tearing, 7-sided 50p piece:

"'*Weird!' he said.  'What a shape!  This is *money*?'" (PS 147)

One of JKR's subtle little jokes, not obvious to child readers.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat May 12 04:18:25 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 04:18:25 -0000
Subject: the wizard-muggle money exchange rate
In-Reply-To: <025801c0da74$bcd96840$9210eda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <9didih+kfbu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18593

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Well, ever since "Quidditch Through the Ages" and "Fantastic Beasts 
& Where
> To Find Them" came out, the exchange rate is no longer a mystery.  
I was
> just wondering, when will the Lexicon be adding the information?  
Or are
> those rates considered official yet?

It's on there. Check out the page on Wizard Money, which you'll find 
by clicking on Wizarding World => Other Magical Things => Wizard 
Money. It's also linked to the Gringotts page and listed in the Main 
Index. 

And if you just hate it when I don't give direct links to pages for 
all my selfish reasons, here's the link to the page itself:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/money.html

I'd like to expand the listing somewhat, however. I want to convert 
every price given on the list into US$ and pounds, but I have no idea 
which coins are worth what in Britain, so I can't really do it. 
Anyone want to volunteer to do it for me?

Steve Vander Ark
sometimes pathetically clueless about things British
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From vderark at bccs.org  Sat May 12 04:24:41 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 04:24:41 -0000
Subject: Hagrid in Azkaban - nitpick
In-Reply-To: <9di3ad+gen2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9didu9+4i8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18594

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> I found it! This is the passage that was confusing me-
> 
> "He, Harry, had broken the wizard law just like Sirius Black. Was 
> inflating Aunt Marge bad enough to land him in Azkaban? Harry 
didn't 
> know anything about the wizard prison, though everyone he'd ever 
> heard speak of it did so in the same fearful tone.  Hagrid the 
> Hogwarts gamekeeper, had spend two months there only last year..."
> 
> Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter three, page 40

Just a tidbit of information for all you nitpickers out there: Hagrid 
was actually in Azkaban from May 8 through 3 am, May 31, 1993. That's 
about three weeks, nothing close to the two months Harry imagines it 
to be. But those were some pretty nasty weeks for Harry and Co., so 
it probably FELT like two months to him. We all know how Harry gets 
his facts wrong a lot (like, oh let me see, the number of Slytherin 
supporters in the stands, or the number of tables at the Yule Ball.)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a day-by-day calendar of CoS showing this
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat May 12 04:31:44 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 04:31:44 -0000
Subject: Ravenclaw Common Room
In-Reply-To: <01a501c0da96$46750e80$5b57d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9diebg+jr83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18595

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:

> > Somewhere it states that there entrance is guarded by a knight.
> >
> 
> The HP trivia game shows the Ravenclaw room as another tower room 
and is
> guarded by a knight.

Is THAT where that came from! I've seen it listed on a few sites and 
wondered where in the heck they came up with that idea. It's not 
mentioned in any canon source that I'm aware of, but I miss stuff now 
and then. I thought maybe JKR had mentioned it in some interview once 
upon a time, an interview that had slipped past me and (even more 
unlikely) past my Official Nitpicking and Interview Gathering Editor, 
Doreen. 

Just for the record, things like that, while interesting, aren't 
considered "official," at least not for Lexicon purposes.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a very nice Ravenclaw page
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May 12 04:49:04 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 04:49:04 -0000
Subject: Snape -  Wands - Last Sentence Contest - University
In-Reply-To: <9dha3d+aei7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9difc0+m3n0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18596

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> I don't I believe for 1/10 of a second that Snape is related to
> Harry. 

How could ANYONE be related to Harry when Dumbledore has stated that 
the Dursleys are the only family he has left?

> Viktor and Fleur don't fit in; both of their wands are shorter than 
> Harry's, though the people are taller.  Lily's is shorter than
> Harry's as well; we have no idea how her height at 11 compared to 
> his.

It makes sense for Viktor and Fleur not to fit in, as their wands are 
not from Ollivander's. Maybe their wands correlate with their height 
compared to the other wands by their wandmakers, or maybe only 
Ollivander uses the correlation with height method. 

>>> Last Sentence Contest: not a quote from Amy <<<

"Hermione looked around at the little crowd of mourners. None of them 
were enjoying the ironically beautiful day, any more than they were 
celebrating having finished school or the final defeat of Voldemort. 
Neither was she, but she felt completely numb rather than teary-eyed. 
She forced herself to look at the coffin and try to understand that, 
even tho' he looked as if he were only sleeping, he was dead forever. 
How could Harry be dead when he looked so much like himself? There 
was the messy black hair, the eyeglasses, the scar..." 

Amy Z wrote:
> IIRC, [JKR} has said both: (snip) --and that there is no 
> wizarding university.

Yesterday (? - anyway, before I took my nap), someone asked how could 
wizards and witches learn advanced skills and do research if there is 
no university. I have thought that there could be research libraries 
and museums that have research labs and that scholars (on staff with 
salary, funded by a research grant from MoM, or independently rich) 
could do their research and publishing there, better than having to 
keep a whole library and lab at home. 

I have thought that people could LEARN to be scholars and researchers 
through an apprenticeship system, based on guilds (collegia) for each 
discipline. Each guild would collect dues from its members and use 
the money for pensions and maintaining a guild hall, containing at 
least a library shared by all the members, and a lecture hall which 
would be used both for public lectures and for oral examinations and 
dissertation defenses.

The future scholar would apprentice himerself to a senior scholar in 
the chosen field. Here are some similarities between the systems:

--Apprenticeship : undergraduate college.  
--Journeyman : B.A.  
--Master (Magister or Magistra) : M.S. or professional degree like M. 
Eng or LL.B.  A Master is allowed to teach apprentices and promote 
them to Journeyman.
--Doctor: Ph.D. A Doctor is allowed to teach Journeymen and Masters. 
I suppose that the Journeyman who wants the rank of Master has to 
pass an oral examination by a committee of Senior Doctors of the 
guild, and that the Master who wants to the rank of Doctor has to do 
research and write it into a dissertation and print several copies of 
the dissertation and make them available for the public to read, and 
then spend 24 straight hours at the lectern answering questions from 
all comers. Some members of the public would come to the oral 
examination and the dissertation defense as a form of entertainment; 
some would prepare the hardest questions they could for the doctoral 
candidate.

The Senior Doctors would listen in shifts. The Senior Doctors decide 
whether the candidate has passed the test for the promotion. If yes, 
the promotion is awarded by the Guild at a formal Guild Dinner. I 
imagine that Guild Dinners are quarterly? The Senior Doctors also 
select which of the Doctors of the Guild are to be surprised with a 
promotion to Senior Doctor.

While many vocational skills could also be taught by apprenticeship, 
there could also be vocational schools. In some cases, it could 
be difficult to distinguish clearly between an apprenticeship and a 
vocational school -- suppose the small-student-population people 
were right and there were 40 graduates a year from Hogwarts. If 20% 
of them went on to medimagical school (a large proportion, I think), 
how would that be different than the medimagical professor(s) having 
8 apprentices?





From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 04:55:58 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:55:58 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the wizard-muggle money exchange rate
References: <9didih+kfbu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <030c01c0da9f$d6392b60$9210eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 18597

Hello,

> It's on there. Check out the page on Wizard Money, which you'll find
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/money.html

I did check it.  But the book was 2.50 pounds, right?  So, that would mean:
1 knut = 0.006112
1 sickle = 0.1772
1 galleon = 3.0132
And reversely:
1 = 0.3318 galleon

Which is different from your calculations.  Of course, I could have gotten
the "2.50 pounds = 14 sickles and 3 knuts" wrong.  Did I?

U.S. conversions, btw:
1 cent = 1.0251 knut
1 dollar = 3.53 sickles = 0.2076 galleon
reverse:
1 knut = 0.98 cent
1 sickle = 0.28 dollar
1 galleon = 4.83 dollar

They seem to be using 1 = $1.6 exchange rate.

little Alex




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat May 12 04:56:58 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 04:56:58 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2
In-Reply-To: <9diavf+b0fc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9difqq+hh6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18598

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> Are filks allowed?
> 
> Pippin

Good question!  Sure, why, not?  It seems to me that a filk is a type 
of poem.  So, go ahead and submit a filk about a character in HP, 
folks.  Remember, email your submission(s) to HP4GUCon at aol.com

--Joywitch




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 05:04:41 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:04:41 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Britishisms / thanks / currency (was Knight Bus)
References: <LAW2-F136x4vvsGOkev0000561d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <031e01c0daa1$12255440$9210eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 18599

Hello,

> I suspect JKR shares my dislike of decimalisation, which has swept away
> almost all of our wealth of words for coins - no more tanners, bobs,
> threepenny (pronounced "thrupney") bits, no more half-crowns
> or florins.  All gone with our twelve pence to the shilling and twenty
> shillings to the pound,

As much as I appreciate the wealth of vocabulary over coins, I pity the
foreigners who visited your country before the decimalisation.  Gods, it's
difficult enough for me to remember the conversion from inches to feet to
yards and then to miles.  And that's after a ten year stay in the USA, I
can't imagine doing that with money, too.  Actually, I'm still trying to
figure out the conversion rates in the fresh produce markets in Hong Kong,
since the market stall owners, for some weird reason, retains the old
Chinese system.  Thank the gods that my dad does all the shopping when I'm
over there.

> unmistakeably resemble.  Getting back on topic, I feel there was a trace
of
> satire in Ron's reaction to our ugly, pocket-tearing, 7-sided 50p piece:
>
> "'*Weird!' he said.  'What a shape!  This is *money*?'" (PS 147)

It's...seven sided?  Huh.  So, wizard money is the same all over the world?
That's good.  Actually, I'm wondering, how did the Weasleys got to Egypt on
their vacation?  Flew?  Apparate?  Floo Powder?  Was it mentioned?

little Alex




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May 12 05:40:48 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 05:40:48 -0000
Subject: Britishisms / thanks / currency (was Knight Bus)
In-Reply-To: <031e01c0daa1$12255440$9210eda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <9diid0+2cof@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18600

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:

> Actually, I'm wondering, how did the Weasleys got to Egypt on
> their vacation?  Flew?  Apparate?  Floo Powder?  Was it mentioned?

I don't recall it being mentioned, but I'm sure they didn't 
Apparate. Besides all the young-uns, even Percy, not having their 
Apparation Licenses yet (Percy had just gotten his at the beginning 
of GoF), QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES says that wizarding folk don't 
Apparate very long distances because it's too dangerous --  IIRC it 
said they used to sail on ships between Europe and the Americas until 
brooms were made sufficiently reliable and sufficiently 
comfortable for such long trips. 

> > All gone with our twelve pence to the shilling and twenty
> > shillings to the pound,
> It's...seven sided?  Huh.  So, wizard money is the same all over 
> the world? That's good.  

Last week I was reading the January 2001 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN (it's 
called ketchup (catch-up)) and there was a Letter to the Editor about 
a humor essay on obsolete units of measurement by a man who owns a 
business that restores antique MGs and therefore deals with 'a 
plethora of obsolete units' (price in LSD, kerbside weight in cwt, 
fuel tank in Imperial gallons, etc) and he said he tortures new 
employees with the question: How many moon units in a hundredweight? 
I know from nothing about 'moon unit', except it's Frank Zappa's 
daughter's given name, so I looked in One-Look Dictionaries and found 
absolutely nothing about moon unit, but found that:

cwt is hundredweight. (I feel stupid. Now that I know, it's obvious 
cwt = Cent WeighT)

hundredweight is 
1) 100 lb (can be called American or 'short')
2) 112 lb (can be called British of 'long')
3) 120 lb (can be called 'old)
4) 100 kg [220 lb] (can be called 'metric') 

It struck me as being a very clear, understandable, difficult to 
confuse unit of measurement (NOT!). The connection to Old Money is 
the 112 - 120 lbs to the 12 pence, 20 shillings. The connection to HP 
- On Topic is that the reply-hook (the statement that I'm replying 
to) is in the same post as an On Topic reply-hook.

little Alex wrote:
> I did check it.  But the book was 2.50 pounds, right?  So, that
> would mean:
> 1 knut = 0.006112? (snip)
> Which is different from your calculations.  Of course, I could 
> have gotten the "2.50 pounds = 14 sickles and 3 knuts" wrong.  

I think the currency conversion is supposed to be based on 
Dumbledore's statement (in the prefaces) that Comic Relief UK has 
raised 'over 250 million dollars since they started in 1985 -- which 
is the equivalent of over 174 million pounds or thirty-four milion 
Galleons' rather than on the price of the book itself. Very often the 
prices marked on books for US, UK, Can reveal that the publisher is 
charging some country a higher price.

The above conversion agrees with what JKR said in a chat about the 
Galleon being worth 5 pounds (which would be around $7.20). However, 
just some people won't admit that JKR is right that there are 1000 
students at Hogwarts, I cannot believe that the prices that Harry is 
shown paying (e.g. seven Galleons for his wand) make any sense with a 
$7 Galleon. I believe that the Galleon must be worth something in the 
$25 to $40 range -- I believe that the 10 Galleons a week that 
Dumbledore offered Dobby (altho' Dobby forced him down to 10 Galleons 
a month IIRC) is the minimum wage for wizarding humans, which would 
be around $240 to $400 a (40 hour) week, depending on local law. In 
1918, Newt Scamander was paid 2 Sickles a week. Well, how much was 85 
cents a week worth in 1918?






From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Sat May 12 11:25:31 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 11:25:31 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9dh6ga+aeqv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dj6jb+9brj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18601

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

 Lea?s last sentence (hopefully not!):
> > "And then, standing on the tip of her toes, she reached up to put 
> her 
> > arms around his neck, and kissed him, softly and silently, on his 
> > scar."

> Great last sentence, but you need to supply your rationale, 
including 
> telling us who "she" is.

Oh no, Haggridd! You don?t want me to tell you that! It would 
spoil the sentence entirely!!!

Besides I think Rebecca?s done it ;-)




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sat May 12 11:59:57 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 11:59:57 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9dj6jb+9brj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dj8jt+qdqu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18602


He glanced at the card, he was still missing Agrippa, but tears welled 
up in his eyes as he saw the image characteristically push its untidy 
hair out of his eyes to reveal his fateful scar.


Rational:  We can't be sure she won't kill him off (hope not), but in 
any case it's about time the chocolate frog makers print a Harry card.

Florence




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 12:11:40 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:11:40 -0000
Subject: Hagrid in Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <9di3ad+gen2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dj99s+efrk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18603

Pippin and Scott suggested <a couple of different lines about Hagrid's 
1993 imprisonment>

No, I'm definitely thinking of the specific words "Hagrid had been in 
Azkaban twice," or the equivalent.  I think it must be in GF, because 
my memory is so recent and I haven't read PA in, what, 2 weeks now?  
<g>  Or maybe it was on a website and not JKR at all . . . argh.

Amy Z
feeling very sad because she just learned that Douglas Adams has died




From ender_w at msn.com  Sat May 12 12:24:52 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 08:24:52 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*" (+ Dreams)
References: <9dh7o4+10tgs@eGroups.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20010511112046.00a36eb0@netmail.home.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20010512000812.0301beb0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <003201c0dade$8ce9c7a0$cae7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 18604


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Deeblite 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 12:09 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*" (+ Dreams)


  At 01:58 PM 5/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
  >At 05:32 PM 5/11/01 +0000, Rita Winston wrote:
  > >It has to be recognizable, not it has to be true. Harry's
  > >deepest desire was family (extended family, blood kin).
  > >
  > >So the Mirror showed him people he would recognize as family.
  >
  >I like this theory -- it also explains why he didn't see the
  >Dursleys in the mirror.


  yeah but another explanatio for that is that the mirror only showed him the 
  Potters.   And Lilly took the name Potter when she married James, so that 
  would explain her presence


  In SS, p.208-209:

  "She was a very pretty woman. She had dark red hair and her eyes-her eyes are just like mine,Harry thought, edging a little closer to the glass.  Bright green-..."

  then

  "And slowly, Harry looked into the faces of the other people in the mirror, and saw other pairs of green eyes like his..."

  Now, there's no reason why people in James' family can't have green eyes, but I, personally, took these two passages to mean that a) Harry has his mother's green eyes...and b) anyone else in the mirror who has green eyes "like his" most likely are then part of Lily's family, not James'

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat May 12 13:11:02 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:11:02 -0000
Subject: Movie: Coloring book hint?
In-Reply-To: <9dibc2+ncaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djcp6+iu3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18605

--- 
> 
> Anyway, one of the pictures is a scene with Fluffy.  There were *4* 
> children in the picture--Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville. (As it 
> should be.)  I know when the trailer first came out there was much 
> nashing of teeth and worrying about whether or not Neville would be 
> in that scene.  If the book is correct and can be considered a 
> harbinger of the movie scene, then Neville has not been cut from 
the 
> scene.  
> 
> Trina

****************************
I am confused. So ... Neville is going to be in the Fluffy scene in 
the movie, even though he is not in that scene in the book? I wonder 
what the purpose of that is? I also wonder what else they will change?

Doreen
******************************




From ender_w at msn.com  Sat May 12 13:22:41 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:22:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: Coloring book hint?
References: <9djcp6+iu3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c0dae6$a00095a0$84eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 18606


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doreen Rich 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 9:11 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: Coloring book hint?


  --- 
  > 
  > Anyway, one of the pictures is a scene with Fluffy.  There were *4* 
  > children in the picture--Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville. (As it 
  > should be.)  I know when the trailer first came out there was much 
  > nashing of teeth and worrying about whether or not Neville would be 
  > in that scene.  If the book is correct and can be considered a 
  > harbinger of the movie scene, then Neville has not been cut from 
  the 
  > scene.  
  > 
  > Trina

  ****************************
  I am confused. So ... Neville is going to be in the Fluffy scene in 
  the movie, even though he is not in that scene in the book? I wonder 
  what the purpose of that is? I also wonder what else they will change?

  Doreen
  ******************************


  But, Neville is in the scene in which they first run into Fluffy...isn't he?  Tell me I'm not crazy.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat May 12 13:37:28 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:37:28 -0000
Subject: OT: Cans open, worms everywhere
In-Reply-To: <9dgrgd+eqn3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djeao+3ttq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18607

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> > "can opened, worms everywhere"
> 
> That's a great motto for this list. Can we put it on the main page 
> somewhere? Who do we credit the quote to? :D
> 
It's one I use often myself... I first heard it on an episode of 
Friends, about 3-4 seasons ago.

Catherine




From hallieu at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 13:52:26 2001
From: hallieu at hotmail.com (Hallie Usmar)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:52:26 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dobby, Winky and the Office for House-Elf Relocation
Message-ID: <F292Y30kkZIhTrBoe2U0000350c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18608

>If there is such an office in the Ministry, why didn't Dobby go there
>after he was freed by Lucius Malfoy? Wouldn't the Office have
>relocated Dobby? Also, Wicky was the house-elf of Crouch Sr.,
>wouldn't she have gone to the Office for House-Elf Relocation (OHER)
>after she was freed? Or is the OHER a dubious Ministry Office
>that "relocates" House-Elves by enslaving them to other families?
>
>:-)Milz

Oh, I thought it meant he relocated....quirky house elves.  House elves that 
drove their masters insane.  Sort of like Battersea dogs home rehomes dogs.  
Winky and Dobby were free, so they could do what they wanted to.  And even 
assuming that this isn't true, Dobby's experience with authority was never 
particularly good, so he wouldn't be going to them automatically.  It seems 
he took charge of Winky, so that would explain it.
Hallie

'We are each of us angels with only one wing - it is only by embracing each 
other that we can fly.'

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 13:58:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:58:28 -0000
Subject: Movie: Coloring book hint?
In-Reply-To: <9djcp6+iu3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djfi4+m31i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18609

Trina wrote:

> > Anyway, one of the pictures is a scene with Fluffy.  There were 
*4* 
> > children in the picture--Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville. 
> 
> ****************************
Doreen wrote:

> I am confused.

The record stands like this:

In the book, as in the actual novel by JKR:  Neville =in=
In the trailer, at least as far as we could see thus far:  Neville 
=out= (boo!)
In the coloring book:  Neville =in= (yay!)

I hope Trina is right--and the coloring book probably is trying to be 
faithful to the movie, so it's a good sign that she is.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
 [Quidditch] is, of course, an entirely fictional 
 sport and nobody really plays it.  May I also take
 this opportunity to wish Puddlemere United the best
 of luck next season.
              -Foreword, Quidditch Through the Ages
-----------------------------------------------------




From maggiemcgreggor at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 14:11:25 2001
From: maggiemcgreggor at hotmail.com (Maggie)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 14:11:25 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9df3ug+v9dm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djgad+g8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18610

"His eyes filled with tears as the wind whipped up and blew his 
untidy bangs aside, revealing what started it all: his scar."


That's my two knuts! ^_^

Maggie




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat May 12 14:13:21 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:13:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: Coloring book hint?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F80@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18611

Big dog scenes- characters:
Fluffy-harry herm ron neville
Fand-harry herm neville draco. -. And hagrid
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-----Original Message-----
From: ender_w <ender_w at msn.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat May 12 09:22:41 2001
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: Coloring book hint?

Real-To:  "ender_w" <ender_w at msn.com>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doreen Rich 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 9:11 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie: Coloring book hint?


  --- 
  > 
  > Anyway, one of the pictures is a scene with Fluffy.  There were *4* 
  > children in the picture--Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville. (As it 
  > should be.)  I know when the trailer first came out there was much 
  > nashing of teeth and worrying about whether or not Neville would be 
  > in that scene.  If the book is correct and can be considered a 
  > harbinger of the movie scene, then Neville has not been cut from 
  the 
  > scene.  
  > 
  > Trina

  ****************************
  I am confused. So ... Neville is going to be in the Fluffy scene in 
  the movie, even though he is not in that scene in the book? I wonder 
  what the purpose of that is? I also wonder what else they will change?

  Doreen
  ******************************


  But, Neville is in the scene in which they first run into Fluffy...isn't
he?  Tell me I'm not crazy.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat May 12 15:13:21 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:13:21 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9dj8jt+qdqu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djjuh+faei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18612

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> 
> He glanced at the card, he was still missing Agrippa, but tears 
welled 
> up in his eyes as he saw the image characteristically push its 
untidy 
> hair out of his eyes to reveal his fateful scar.
> 
> 
> Rational:  We can't be sure she won't kill him off (hope not), but 
in 
> any case it's about time the chocolate frog makers print a Harry 
card.
> 
> Florence

heres mine!

"So, after a long and painfull wait, Harry discovered that the 
operation had been a complete success; he no longer had that hideous 
scar"


Claire




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 15:15:43 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:15:43 
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  What Dumbledore Knows 
Message-ID: <LAW2-F14Ln6uV9swjA000005c28@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18613

Rita wrote:
I personally disagree. I firmly believe that McGonagall and Hooch have
>been a couple since forever.
I rather like this - they have their love of Quidditch in common.
>
>Morag Traynor wrote:
> > Yet he misses three unregistered animagi under his nose
> > for several years.  Odd.
>
>It recently occurred to me that maybe one of the ways that Dumbledore
>knows so much about what is going on at Hogwarts could be that the House
>Elves and the ghosts inform him of any unusual things they notice.

I'm not so sure I like this, though it is quite practicable.  And I 
certainly agree that the Marauders must have relied on the loyalty of elves, 
ghosts etc.  I just don't care for the idea of Dumbledore spying on everyone 
at Hogwarts.  True, he has a network of spies in the fight against 
Voldemort, but then V is the enemy, so that's different.  I prefer to think 
he has great powers of observation and deduction, allied to a deep knowledge 
of human nature, particularly where children are concerned.  He must have 
known almost every witch and wizard under the age of 100 as a child - what 
an insight that would give him!  I think his lack of knowledge about the 
animagi is a plot necessity that rather goes against the grain of his 
character.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat May 12 15:34:56 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:34:56 -0000
Subject: Movie: Coloring book hint?
In-Reply-To: <9djcp6+iu3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djl70+12b2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18614

Doreen wrote:
> ****************************
> I am confused. So ... Neville is going to be in the Fluffy scene in 
> the movie, even though he is not in that scene in the book? I 
wonder what the purpose of that is? I also wonder what else they will 
change?
> ******************************

I just meant that when the trailer 1st came out, there was a scene in 
which HH&R were screaming and running away.  Speculation thought it 
was the Fluffy scene without Neville.  There was much discussion as 
to whether Neville would be cut out of that scene, since when they 
first saw Fluffy Neville was with HH&R. Obviously we *don't* know 
what things have been changed for the film, but when I saw the 
coloring book had all four of them with Fluffy, I took it to mean 
that perhaps the movie *did not* cut Neville from that scene.

Many apologies if I confused you.  It was rather late when I posted 
that tidbit of information.

Trina 




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 15:57:09 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:57:09 -0000
Subject: University
In-Reply-To: <9difc0+m3n0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djmgl+7ja8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18615

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> Amy Z wrote:
> > IIRC, [JKR} has said both: (snip) --and that there is no 
> > wizarding university.
> 
> Yesterday (? - anyway, before I took my nap), someone asked how 
could 
> wizards and witches learn advanced skills and do research if there 
is 
> no university. I have thought that there could be research
libraries 
> and museums that have research labs and that scholars (on staff
with 
> salary, funded by a research grant from MoM, or independently rich) 
> could do their research and publishing there, better than having to 
> keep a whole library and lab at home. 
> 
> I have thought that people could LEARN to be scholars and 
researchers 
> through an apprenticeship system, based on guilds (collegia) for 
each 
> discipline. Each guild would collect dues from its members and use 
> the money for pensions and maintaining a guild hall, containing at 
> least a library shared by all the members, and a lecture hall which 
> would be used both for public lectures and for oral examinations
and 
> dissertation defenses.
> 
> The future scholar would apprentice himerself to a senior scholar
in 
> the chosen field. Here are some similarities between the systems:
> 
> --Apprenticeship : undergraduate college.  
> --Journeyman : B.A.  
> --Master (Magister or Magistra) : M.S. or professional degree like 
M. 
> Eng or LL.B.  A Master is allowed to teach apprentices and promote 
> them to Journeyman.
> --Doctor: Ph.D. A Doctor is allowed to teach Journeymen and
Masters. 
> I suppose that the Journeyman who wants the rank of Master has to 
> pass an oral examination by a committee of Senior Doctors of the 
> guild, and that the Master who wants to the rank of Doctor has to
do 
> research and write it into a dissertation and print several copies 
of 
> the dissertation and make them available for the public to read,
and 
> then spend 24 straight hours at the lectern answering questions
from 
> all comers. Some members of the public would come to the oral 
> examination and the dissertation defense as a form of
entertainment; 
> some would prepare the hardest questions they could for the
doctoral 
> candidate.
> 
> The Senior Doctors would listen in shifts. The Senior Doctors
decide 
> whether the candidate has passed the test for the promotion. If
yes, 
> the promotion is awarded by the Guild at a formal Guild Dinner. I 
> imagine that Guild Dinners are quarterly? The Senior Doctors also 
> select which of the Doctors of the Guild are to be surprised with a 
> promotion to Senior Doctor.
> 
> While many vocational skills could also be taught by
apprenticeship, 
> there could also be vocational schools. In some cases, it could 
> be difficult to distinguish clearly between an apprenticeship and a 
> vocational school -- suppose the small-student-population people 
> were right and there were 40 graduates a year from Hogwarts. If 20% 
> of them went on to medimagical school (a large proportion, I
think), 
> how would that be different than the medimagical professor(s)
having 
> 8 apprentices?

There is a real life parallel to the above.  In the early history of 
the U.S. lawyers were admitted to the bar, not after graduation from 
lawschool; instead they "read law" under the tutelage of an 
established attorney, who was not even a recognized professor.  I 
don't understand why anyone finds a university structure necessary, 
though. During the nineteenth and early twentieth century in Britain, 
did not the ruling class enter into their jobs after graduating from 
"public" schools such as Eton or Harrow, without attending University?

Haggridd




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 16:02:38 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:02:38 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9dj8jt+qdqu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djmqu+eiue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18616

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> 
> He glanced at the card, he was still missing Agrippa, but tears 
welled 
> up in his eyes as he saw the image characteristically push its 
untidy 
> hair out of his eyes to reveal his fateful scar.
> 
> 
> Rational:  We can't be sure she won't kill him off (hope not), but 
in 
> any case it's about time the chocolate frog makers print a Harry 
card.
> 
> Florence

Wow!  IMHO, this gets on the medal list, along with Rebecca's (I think 
we can discount the "forever" of the comment in PS as hyperbole), and 
the Fat Lady sentence (you still need to work it into a single 
sentence, though, IIRC.)

Haggridd




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 16:04:56 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:04:56 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9djjuh+faei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djmv8+ms37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18617

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> 
> heres mine!
> 
> "So, after a long and painfull wait, Harry discovered that the 
> operation had been a complete success; he no longer had that hideous 
> scar"
> 
> 
> Claire

Nice effort, Claire, but did you really intend for Harry to have a 
Muggle operation?

Haggridd




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat May 12 16:20:00 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:20:00 -0700
Subject: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
References: <9djmv8+ms37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004501c0daff$65def4c0$444e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 18618

For some reason, while listening to SS and GoF (I no longer read I listen) these questions occured to me and I was wondering what others thought-

How did James's cloak come to be in Albus's possession?  Did James fear what would happen if Voldie got his hands on it, and if he did, why?  Apparently you can buy the cloak somewhere as Barty JR. had one.  So in reality, Voldie could just go out and buy one, or have it made.  Or, did James leave it at Hogwarts?  Assuming he used it much as Harry does, to sneak around, did Dumbledore catch him one day in 7th year and confiscate it till graduation, when, James, deciding he really didn't need it (or Lilly deciding for him) left it in Dumbledore's care till such time he DID need it and later died before he could pick it up?

How does Snape know about the cloak? (GoF)  Did Dumbledore inform the teachers that Harry had it?  Do the teachers know from James's days at Hogwarts? We know that "Moody" can see through them, Hagrid either knew because of Harry (I don't remember if Hagrid had seen it before GoF) or because of "Moody" but what about the rest, how do they know, if they know?

Saitaina
http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
The Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the musty smell...
Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and Harry Potter Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat May 12 16:30:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 11:30:43 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore/Moody-Crouch -- Hedwig -- Audio Versions -- Harry as Seer
References: <d7.64eae00.28287a88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AFD6533.40766DC2@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18619

Hi all --

Sorry -- I'm cleaning out my inbox, and while I'm not going to go back &
try to read through messages from the one week I missed entirely, I did
want to comment on a few things.

I see we seem to have had a thread going about how Moody-Crouch
hoodwinked Dumbledore for that entire school year.  I've been listening
to the GoF CDs while feeding Elizabeth, and I have a related question
for us to ponder.  We know from CoS that polyjuice potion does not give
the person who takes the potion the thoughts/mind/knowledge/memory of
the person whose appearance is taken on (that is, Harry & Ron look like
Crabbe & Goyle, but they still retain their own minds; they don't know
where to find the Slytherin common room, etc.).  So .... how exactly did
Crouch Jr. know enough about Moody to hoodwink Dumbledore for such an
extended period of time?  How would he have found out so much about him
& his quirks & personality traits?  Crouch Jr. was in Azkaban from the
time he was very young (19-20??) and was then a virtual prisoner in his
father's home.  Could he have gleaned enough from Daily Prophet articles
to form a good enough impression of Moody to fool *Dumbledore*?  This
starts to sound less & less plausible to me .....

HEDWIG -- I also noticed on a recent re-hearing of the audio versions
that Harry thinks to himself that there wasn't a speck of white in the
sea of owls flooding the Great Hall (when he is awaiting Sirius' first
letter back).  Is Hedwig the only *snowy* owl at Hogwarts?  Are the
snowy owls rare?  Eeylops advertises snowy owls on their sign outside
(see Diagon Alley chapter in PS/SS when Harry acquires Hedwig).  So, how
rare are they?

AUDIO VERSIONS: I enjoyed reading Hagridd's interpretation of the Fry
versus Dale versions (it was good to hear an American comparison of the
two).  It seems most of our British friends prefer Fry.  The Fry
versions are still on my wish-list but are pricey considering I already
own the tapes & CDs of all the Dale versions.  If Hagridd likes Fry's
Hermione better, I might have to acquire at least one version to see (I
hate Dale's interpretation of Hermione & am not fond of most of his
female characters).

HARRY AS SEER -- I really like Scott's theory while home sick that maybe
Harry's uniqueness comes from an ability to see how to defeat
Voldemort.  He would be the instrument (hence Voldy's desire to kill
him), but not necessarily the killer.  Interesting .....

Penny





fruitloophotty at aol.com wrote:

> Naama wrote:
> It's the "the butler did it!"
> kind of solution - pick the least likely character and make him the
> murderer. With no build up. That's what I call a mechanical
> solution, and since JKR is not given to that kind of plotting, I can
> only assume that she made this major plot change at a late stage,
> after a lot of (real) Moody stuff was already written."
>
> Amy responded:
> "This is where we will all just have to speculate until the
> publication  of the Rowling Notebooks(TM), but I'd bet Galleons to
> gherkins that Moody=Crouch was worked out long before book 4 was
> written.  It is a far-fetched solution because of the Dumbledore
> problem, but it's no more un-built-up-to than Quirrell's the bad guy,
> or Riddle's bad and  Ginny's opening the Chamber, or Sirius is good-
> Scabbers is Pettigrew-Lupin's a werewolf, IMO."
>
> --Hmm... Until I read all these recent messages, I never really
> noticed any
> problems with the Moody=Crouch theory. The main inconsistency we seem
> to have
> here is how Dumbledore wouldn't notice the switch. Wouldn't Dumbledore
> have
> been on his guard throughout the year, esp. since he even bothered to
> hire
> Moody in the first place? I recall Sirius saying something in a letter
> to
> Harry along the lines of, "...they're saying he(Dumbledore) got Moody
> out of
> retirement, which means he's reading the signs, even if no one else
> is." So,
> Dumbledore knew along something fishy was going on, and it just bugs
> me that
> he wouldn't keep an eye on Moody. And Crouch supposedly made the
> switch the
> night Moody reported someone prowling outside his house, right? I'm
> not
> really sure if that's right, but if so, you would think that his good
> friend
> Arthur Weasley would notice the change, if not Dumbledore.
>
> I'm still not sure which side I'm taking on this matter. There is
> still the
> possibility that no one would notice the switch. Do we know how close
> of a
> relationship Moody and Dumbledore had? Did they talk to each other on
> day-to-day basis? And as for knowing the real-Moody's personality
> traits,
> everyone knew he was extremely paranoid, so not-Moody could easily
> improvise
> on that trait, plus, as someone mentioned, he could always question
> real-Moody in the trunk. Oh my, what a run-on sentence. I really have
> no idea
> if any of this makes sense. It sure does in my head.
>
> --Connie, who managed to confuse herself utterly with this whole
> message.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 16:35:32 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:35:32 -0000
Subject: University
In-Reply-To: <9djmgl+7ja8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djook+peps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18620

Rita wrote:

<lots of good stuff snipped>

> > I have thought that people could LEARN to be scholars and 
> researchers 
> > through an apprenticeship system, based on guilds (collegia) for 
> each 
> > discipline.

Haggridd wrote:

> 
> There is a real life parallel to the above.  In the early history of 
> the U.S. lawyers were admitted to the bar, not after graduation from 
> lawschool; instead they "read law" under the tutelage of an 
> established attorney, who was not even a recognized professor.  I 
> don't understand why anyone finds a university structure necessary, 
> though. During the nineteenth and early twentieth century in 
Britain, 
> did not the ruling class enter into their jobs after graduating from 
> "public" schools such as Eton or Harrow, without attending 
University?

Don't know about modern Britain, but the contemporary US model of 
multiple university degrees is unusual in the history of 
education/training and certainly is not the only workable one.  You 
can still read law in some places.  My state has the only State 
Supreme Court justice in the US who never went to law school, but it 
used to be very common.  Rita's vision fits with the medieval system, 
at least as well as I remember the tiny bits we learned about in 
middle school, and since the wizarding world is relatively small (I 
know the size is highly debatable, but what's certain is that there 
are way fewer wizards/witches than Muggles), a system of 
apprenticeships and other less standardized forms of training would 
work very well.  I think it would work very well for us Muggles, too, 
but that's just my hobbyhorse . . .

Amy Z
founder, Potter-Loving Unschoolers Mastering Professions (PLUMP)

-------------------------------------------------
 Ron peered into Harry's teacup, his forehead
 wrinkled with effort.  "There's a blob a bit
 like a bowler hat," he said.  "Maybe you're 
 going to work for the Ministry of Magic. . . ."
               -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat May 12 16:37:55 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 11:37:55 -0500
Subject: Student population at Hogwarts (Long!)
References: <9ddvfm+jrh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AFD66E3.8B326EAC@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18621

Hi --

Florence wrote:

> I don't believe the houses are equally sized.  Some of the quirkier
> English public schools (really top-notch private schools) have house
> systems where the houses are not equally sized.  I've always viewed
> Gryffindor as being one of the smaller houses (no evidence for this
> except for the small numbers in Harry's year).

I agree completely.  I wanted to clarify that there is another entire
section in the Hogwarts FAQ relating to this topic: the Sorting Hat &
Sorting Ceremony.  Included in that section is the notion that naturally
the houses are not equally-sized or there could be no sorting based on
the personality, merit, strengths & weaknesses of the individual
students.

However, when trying to discern the student population, it makes sense
mathematically to assume equal-sized houses for purposes of analyzing
the evidence.  Make sense?

I (and other proponents of the small student population theory) do
concede that Harry's year of Gryffindors could be smaller than the other
Houses for that year.  However, for there to be 1000 students (hence 140
students in Harry's year overall supposedly), there would have to be
wildly more Ravenclaws than the other 3 houses.  If, as Florence posits,
there could be sections within each House (Slytherin 1, Slytherin 2,
etc.), the shortage of teachers is really a problem I think.

Anyway ... just wanted to note that the business about the Sorting is
covered in another section of the FAQ.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 16:49:15 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:49:15 -0000
Subject: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
In-Reply-To: <004501c0daff$65def4c0$444e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9djpib+buqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18622

Saitaina wrote:
 
> How did James's cloak come to be in Albus's possession?  

My speculation cells are tired.  I'll just say I've wondered about 
this also, and wonder if it will prove to be a part of the explanation 
of what happened near the end of James and Lily's lives.  It seems 
like something James would have wanted when he knew Voldemort was 
after them, but I also wonder whether V has a way to see through them.

> 
> How does Snape know about the cloak?

>From the end of PA.  He already suspects because of the mud-throwing 
incident, if he has half a brain, which we know he does--maybe he even 
knew or suspected that James had one.  When he finds it under the 
Whomping Willow, that settles it, though actually he can't be 100% 
sure it belongs to Harry (he isn't in the Shack yet when Lupin talks 
about James's Cloak, ch. 17).

> Did Dumbledore inform the teachers that Harry had it?  Do the 
teachers know from James's days at Hogwarts? 

Interesting question.  It seems like a big secret, doesn't it?  I bet 
Invisibility Cloaks are on Filch's forbidden objects list, just for a 
start.

>We know that "Moody" can see through them, Hagrid 
>either knew because of Harry (I don't remember if Hagrid had seen it 
>before GoF) or because of "Moody" but what about the rest, how do 
>they know, if they know?

Hagrid already knows Harry has one, going right back to PS/SS when 
it's needed in the plan to ship Norbert out.  There are numerous times 
the Trio visits him using the Cloak. 

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
 Ron, who had been gazing at Harry, said, "You don't
 know how bizarre it is to see Goyle =thinking=."
                     -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
-----------------------------------------------------




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat May 12 16:59:02 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:59:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
References: <9djpib+buqj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c0db04$da1f2440$444e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 18623

Okay, my brain had to have died for some of this since after reading Amy Z's awnsers I realized I had the awnsers to one of my questions all along, thanks hun.

Saitaina
http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
The Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the musty smell...
Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and Harry Potter Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 16:57:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:57:33 -0000
Subject: Moody-Crouch
In-Reply-To: <3AFD6533.40766DC2@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9djq1t+pev7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18624

Penny wrote:

>We know from CoS that polyjuice potion does not give
> the person who takes the potion the thoughts/mind/knowledge/memory 
of
> the person whose appearance is taken on (that is, Harry & Ron look 
like
> Crabbe & Goyle, but they still retain their own minds; they don't 
know
> where to find the Slytherin common room, etc.).  So .... how exactly 
did
> Crouch Jr. know enough about Moody to hoodwink Dumbledore for such 
an
> extended period of time?  How would he have found out so much about 
him
> & his quirks & personality traits?  

He interrogates him as needed all year, using the Imperius Curse 
("Veritaserum"); that's why he keeps him alive (though he may also 
do so because you can only make Polyjuice out of stuff from a 
still-living person--I wonder).  Even so it seems a little weak; 
impersonating someone well enough to fool his longtime friend must be 
very hard to pull off.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------------------
   "See, there was this wizard who went . . . bad.  As bad as 
 you could go.  Worse.  Worse than worse.   His name was . . ."
   Hagrid gulped, but no words came out.
   "Could you write it down?" Harry suggested.
   "Nah--can't spell it."
                              -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
----------------------------------------------------------------




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 12 17:06:06 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:06:06 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Size (sort of) and special classes.
In-Reply-To: <9dhonp+tgn9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djqhu+c5mi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18625

Stephanie wrote:
"For example, I graduated from the University of Kentucky (GO CATS!), 
where there are some 30,000 students and around 1500 full-time 
facutly.  If you heard me tell many undergrad stories, you might come 
away thinking that there were  only a few prof.s and a few students 
and only one bar.  Because, I just didn't know the people that took 
the Biology classes, and I only knew a handful of people in my 
massive dorm.  My POV focuses almost entirely on the History and 
Political Science Departments and classes -- and that's certainly not 
everyone who was there.  Okay, anecdotal evidence, I'm ready to be 
slammed."

--Stephanie makes a good point. :-) It all comes back to the idea of 
Harry's POV. I attend a rather small secondary school, about 750 
people which is supposedly even smaller than Hogwarts, and still I 
don't know even half those people.  It doesn't suprise me that we 
don't see that many people even if the Hogwarts size is 1000. What 
suprises me is that there aren't more people supposedly in Harry's 
house. Despite those people may not be mentioned often the fact they 
are seemingly non-existent.

One thing is that the people I know are also the ones I share 
classes  with. If Snape teaches more than one 4th year Potions class, 
as he must for 1000 students, are some more difficult than others? At 
my school we have College Prep (CP), Honours (HR), and Advanced 
Placement (AP) classes. Each is more difficult than the other. Are 
British secondary schools arranged like this? Would Hogwarts be? 

We don't really get any evidence in this except that as the years go 
by they are able to choose different classes, and some may be more 
difficult than others. 

Scott




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 17:11:48 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:11:48 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
Message-ID: <LAW2-F46YHkidcDjoYA00005d12@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18626

Saitaina wrote:
<great questions to which I have no answer snipped>


Apparently you can buy the cloak somewhere as Barty JR. had one.  So in 
reality, Voldie could just go out and buy one, or have it made

The Crouches are also an old, wealthy family - Mr Crouch remembers that his 
grandfather had "an Axminster that could seat twelve - but that was before 
carpets were banned of course" (GOF 84 Brit), so Barty probably inherited 
his as well.  It's important to the plot that invisibility cloaks are *not* 
easy to come by - otherwise too many problems would be too easily solved, 
and she'd constantly have to be explaining why a character couldn't just 
become invisible.  JKR reinforces this point in FB, where we find that they 
are made from the hair of the Far Eastern Demiguise which "can be seen only 
by wizards skilled in its capture" due to its powers of invisibility.  As 
someone has pointed out on this list, Harry's possessions are few, but 
immensely significant and (almost) unique - the Cloak, the Firebolt, the 
Map.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 17:17:11 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:17:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hogwarts Size (sort of) and special classes.
In-Reply-To: <9djqhu+c5mi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010512171711.31845.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18627

> Stephanie wrote:
> "For example, I graduated from the University of
> Kentucky (GO CATS!), 
> where there are some 30,000 students and around 1500
> full-time 
> facutly.  If you heard me tell many undergrad
> stories, you might come 
> away thinking that there were  only a few prof.s and
> a few students 
> and only one bar.

You know, I hadn't thought about it this way, but
honestly you could argue the lack of detail about the
rest of the people as evidence that it's pretty big. 
I went to a *very* small college (around 400 students)
and trust me, you knew everyone and *saw* everyone on
a daily basis.  Whereas now that I'm at a larger law
school, I see only a very few people I know and the
rest are relegated to faceless masses.  So telling my
story at the small school would be full of references
to lots and lots of people, because I knew and saw
them all frequently, whereas you'd think my law school
was smaller b/c my stories of it include only a half
dozen or so people and three professors.

Anyway, just a random thought. :)


Andrea
Phoenix feather, maple, 7 1/2 inches

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 12 17:38:38 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:38:38 -0000
Subject: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
In-Reply-To: <9djpib+buqj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9djseu+5cl7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18628

Saitaina asked:
"How did James's cloak come to be in Albus's possession?" 

Amy Z wrote:
"My speculation cells are tired.  I'll just say I've wondered about 
this also, and wonder if it will prove to be a part of the 
explanation of what happened near the end of James and Lily's lives.  
It seems like something James would have wanted when he knew 
Voldemort was after them, but I also wonder whether V has a way to 
see through them."

--It certainly leads us to believe that James didn't exactly have a 
good outlook on the future, eh? It just doesn't make sense that he 
would give away his cherished (and valuable) possesions if he was 
about to go into hiding and therefore be safe. He had no reason to 
think that Voldemort would find him. 

IMO there's more to this than meets the eye, and like Amy, I think it 
has a lot to do with what James and Lily were doing around the end of 
their lives. Obviously that situation would explain why things like 
the invisibility cloak were being given away for safe keeping. As to 
when that information will be disclosed...

Scott 




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 12 18:06:56 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:06:56 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore/Moody-Crouch -- Hedwig 
In-Reply-To: <3AFD6533.40766DC2@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9dju40+pd4u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18629

Penny wrote:

<snip lots of interesting thoughts on the implausibility of 
Moody/Crouch> 
"This starts to sound less & less plausible to me ....."

--It's completely implausible. This is why GoF is my least favourite 
book. It's got some great moments, but the denoument is well...less 
than sound. If Moody and Dumbledore were good friends then it's hard 
to believe he wouldn't have noticed the imposter. 

Here's what I've come up with. It hasn't crossed Dumbledore's mind 
that Crouch might NOT be real. (I mean would you think - "Gee my 
friend is acting a little strange so he must really be a dark wizard 
in disguise!" C'mon.) Moody was already a very eccentric person with 
a quirky personality (from what we've seen) so if Crouch made a 
mistake Dumbledore might have just considered it part of his strange 
personality. Taking Harry after he portkeyed back to Hogwarts wasn't 
the first thing he'd done "wrong" it was just first thing soreally 
out of character that Dumbledore began to suspect/realised the truth.

Penny wrote:
"HEDWIG -- I also noticed on a recent re-hearing of the audio versions
that Harry thinks to himself that there wasn't a speck of white in the
sea of owls flooding the Great Hall (when he is awaiting Sirius' first
letter back).  Is Hedwig the only *snowy* owl at Hogwarts?  Are the
snowy owls rare?  Eeylops advertises snowy owls on their sign outside
(see Diagon Alley chapter in PS/SS when Harry acquires Hedwig).  So, 
how rare are they?"

--They can't be that normal for Britain, surely. I'd think that 
Hedwig is not all that rare as far as messenger owls go, but would be 
more common in other parts of the world. I remember being very young 
and seeing a snowy owl at the Washington (DC) zoo. It's certainly one 
of the most beautiful and regal owl species. A quick internet search 
the following-

http://www.bostonboats.com/fs6_c.htm

"The Snowy Owl is found in prehistoric cave paintings in France, 
making it one of the oldest recognized species of birds on the 
planet. They are also found in Romanian folklore, which says that the 
souls of repentant sinners transformed into Snowy Owls and flew to 
heaven. Today, Northern Europeans still consider it good luck to see 
one of these magnificent birds."

Interesting...Could this have anything to do with Hedwig? Hmmm....
The real reason for Hedwig is that bubbling romantic potential 
between her and Harry! We all know that Simon!

Scott




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 18:27:57 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:27:57 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP
Message-ID: <9djvbd+46bp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18630

I was listening today to the Fry recording of CoS-- don't worry, I 
won't inflict one of my Interim Reports on you all today-- when I 
realized that I had missed the pun in Sir Nicholas de Mimsy 
Porpington's name.  I was flabbergasted that I had not picked up that 
the sobriquet of a ghost whose head was not completely cut through
was Nearly Headless "Nick"!  How stupid of me!  I had always enjoyed
JKR's sense of humor and the great care she exercised in her writing. 
I am not speaking of claasical or other allusions, like Sirius (the 
Dog Star) Black being an animagus for a black dog, but of simple
wordplay, like that of Peeves-- if this poltergeist acted up around
me I would certainly be peeved.

My favorite pun has not lasted byond PS, sadly.  It is he Inn where 
Hagrid got his dragon egg, The Hogshead.  You have the Head of a Hog, 
naturally, and the carrying forth of the Hog theme of Hogsmeade, but 
you also have the delicious fact that a hogshead is a big keg of ale 
equal in measure to that of three barrels.  I was so disappointed
when JKR used The Three Broomsticks in later books.  Does anybody else
have a favorite pun?

Haggridd




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 18:44:59 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:44:59 -0000
Subject: Audio Versions
In-Reply-To: <3AFD6533.40766DC2@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9dk0bb+banc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18631

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> 
> AUDIO VERSIONS: I enjoyed reading Hagridd's interpretation of the 
Fry
> versus Dale versions (it was good to hear an American comparison of 
the
> two).  It seems most of our British friends prefer Fry.  The Fry
> versions are still on my wish-list but are pricey considering I 
already
> own the tapes & CDs of all the Dale versions.  If Hagridd likes 
Fry's
> Hermione better, I might have to acquire at least one version to see 
(I
> hate Dale's interpretation of Hermione & am not fond of most of his
> female characters).
> Penny

Thanks for the encouragement.  I have tried to be objective, and to 
allow for the fact that I had heard the Dale recordings first.  I 
agree with your opinion on those female characters for whom I have 
heard both versions-- I am dying to get to Rita Skeeter and to Fleur 
de la Cour-- there are other characters for whom I prefer Fry's 
reading.  I have mentioned that I prefer Fry's Snape and his 
Voldemort already.  To these characters I would add that of Peeves, of 
Nearly Headless Nick, and of Justin Finch-Fletchley.  Fry also uses an 
echo chamber for Mrs. Weasley's howler to Ron, which works extremely 
well;  I don't consider it cheating.  Perhaps I shall summarize my 
findings at the end, but since I am now just listening to CoS, it will 
probably be some time before I get there, although I do hope it will 
be before the publication of OotP.

Haggridd





From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Sat May 12 19:05:04 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:05:04 -0000
Subject: Douglas Adams is dead
Message-ID: <9dk1h0+beg0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18632

I was sorry to lean that Author Douglas Adams, the author of The 
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, died suddenly yesterday, he was 
only 49. By the way, if you like Harry Potter you'll probably like 
the Hitchhiker series of 5 books, I highly recommended them.  
   





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat May 12 19:20:24 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 20:20:24 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: 'Scar as last word' contest - er...OT Chatter please
Message-ID: <01f701c0db18$9907d7e0$f93670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 18633

Hi everyone,

Sorry to be a big pain, and I know we're in the midst of it, but can we move
Haggridd/EggOnMyHead's contest to OT Chatter? Please? Please?  Thank you.
:-)

The Moderators will shortly post some rough guidelines on running contests,
but we would like people to use OT Chatter for such things from now on.

Remember, you can also send contest ideas to Joywitch, if you would rather
not deal with the admin yourself (and, otherwise, we strongly encourage that
you let Joy know what you're planning, to avoid clashes).  There is a
HP4GUCon at aol.com e-mail address for this purpose.

HPfGU Contest #2 - to write a poem about a character from the books - is
also ongoing, and all responses for that should be sent to the e-mail
address above.

Thanks!

Neil - now going to OT Chatter to post an entry to the 'last line' contest
(whilst half-watching the Eurovision Song Contest... I'm not sure which is
worse)
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm










From lizscford at aol.com  Sat May 12 19:26:14 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:26:14 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Douglas Adams is dead
Message-ID: <16.caed57c.282ee856@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18634

I heard about that this morning and was like, oh no! It amde me really mopey 
cause I really loved that trilogy(?!?!)....
:(
DARLA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat May 12 19:46:28 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 14:46:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Cans open, worms everywhere
References: <9djeao+3ttq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AFD9314.3F393546@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18635

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

>
> > That's a great motto for this list. Can we put it on the main page
> > somewhere? Who do we credit the quote to? :D
> >
> It's one I use often myself... I first heard it on an episode of
> Friends, about 3-4 seasons ago.

Do you want it in Latin?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat May 12 19:54:55 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 14:54:55 -0500
Subject: Old buds? was Moody-Crouch
References: <9djq1t+pev7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AFD950F.EE2F3864@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18636

Amy Z wrote:

> He interrogates him as needed all year, using the Imperius Curse
> ("Veritaserum"); that's why he keeps him alive (though he may also do
> so because you can only make Polyjuice out of stuff from a
> still-living person--I wonder).  Even so it seems a little weak;
> impersonating someone well enough to fool his longtime friend must be
> very hard to pull off.

Is there any evidence in canon that Dumbledore and Moody were friends?
Longtime, close, whatever? I'm not recalling this. And in any case,
Moody has been pretty much a recluse since the Voldemort years, and is
an odd individual at the best of times. It's a pretty good pick for an
impersonator, since things he gets wrong or does strangely can be
attributed to the oddball personality of the person being impersonated.

Point being, we're assuming Dumbledore (a) knew Moody pretty well, or at
least knew him well enough to pick up on personality quirks, and (b)
spent enough time with Moody, hangin' out or whatever, to have picked up
on such things. I don't think either one is necessarily supported by
canon.

Moody (the real one, pre-Crouch attack) did agree to come out of
retirement at Dumbledore's request. However, I submit that Dumbledore's
stature in the wizarding community, coupled with the presence of Harry
at Hogwarts and the need to protect him, would have been enough to
induce Moody to agree, without there *having* to have been a bond of
friendship to call upon.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat May 12 20:10:11 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:10:11 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Reminder re: OT Policy
Message-ID: <3AFD98A3.82F71FC5@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18637

Hi everyone --

Just a quick & friendly ADMIN reminder from the new mom Moderator that
all posts that are strictly off-topic should be posted in the OT-Chatter
group rather than to this main group.  I noticed a few messages &
replies with OT in the subject heading -- I'm gratified that people are
using the subject heading appropriately.  But, can I pretty please ask
that those types of messages be moved to OT-Chatter?  Thanks!!!  It
helps keep message volume under control .....

If you need a reminder of what goes in OT-Chatter (or in Announcements),
please check out the links below.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

Thanks --

Penny
The Magical Mod Squad




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat May 12 20:44:33 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 20:44:33 -0000
Subject: Old buds? was Moody-Crouch
In-Reply-To: <3AFD950F.EE2F3864@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9dk7bh+jt7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18638

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> > He interrogates him as needed all year, using the Imperius Curse
> > ("Veritaserum"); that's why he keeps him alive (though he may 
also do
> > so because you can only make Polyjuice out of stuff from a
> > still-living person--I wonder).  Even so it seems a little weak;
> > impersonating someone well enough to fool his longtime friend 
must be
> > very hard to pull off.
> 
> Is there any evidence in canon that Dumbledore and Moody were 
friends?
> Longtime, close, whatever? I'm not recalling this. And in any case,
> Moody has been pretty much a recluse since the Voldemort years, and 
is
> an odd individual at the best of times. It's a pretty good pick for 
an
> impersonator, since things he gets wrong or does strangely can be
> attributed to the oddball personality of the person being 
impersonated.
> 
> Point being, we're assuming Dumbledore (a) knew Moody pretty well, 
or at
> least knew him well enough to pick up on personality quirks, and (b)
> spent enough time with Moody, hangin' out or whatever, to have 
picked up
> on such things. I don't think either one is necessarily supported by
> canon.
> 
> Moody (the real one, pre-Crouch attack) did agree to come out of
> retirement at Dumbledore's request. However, I submit that 
Dumbledore's
> stature in the wizarding community, coupled with the presence of 
Harry
> at Hogwarts and the need to protect him, would have been enough to
> induce Moody to agree, without there *having* to have been a bond of
> friendship to call upon.
> 
> --Amanda

You could be right, but he does say it is a "great personal favour" 
rather than a favour to the school, the MoM etc.  He also treats 
Moody with slightly more familiarity than we are used to - I don't 
think he often calls other teachers by their first names - at least 
not in the presence of students, and I recall at least one instance 
when he calls him Alastair instead of Professor Moody, which in my 
mind shows that they have at least some history/friendship prior to 
Hogwarts.  Also, we do not know exactly how much time they get to 
spend together whilst at Hogwarts.

Moody is also present at the same trials as Dumbledore (as seen in 
the Pensieve).  Whilst this is not conclusive in itself, the two are 
sitting together, and talking about what is going on - showing again 
that they do have some degree of familiarity.  

I still do agree that it is surprising that Dumbledore didn't twig 
that something wasn't quite right.  However, after reading the book 
again and again, when the element of surprise is no longer there, I 
often have to shake myself to remember that it is Crouch-as-Moody, 
not just Moody, as he seems to do everything right as far as his 
teaching role is concerned.  

Catherine




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 20:53:15 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
In-Reply-To: <9dk7ch+c7hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010512205315.18303.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18640


--- Doreen Rich <nera at rconnect.com> wrote:
> I am not a sports fan, by any means. I read this part of GF and I am 
> totally confused.
> 
> Shouldn't Slytherin get the penalty? Isn't Malfoy the one who 
> committed the foul? It is a foul to grab another player's broomstick.
>
> Here is the quote from GF:
<snip>
>     "Penalty! Penalty to Gryffindor! I've never seen such
> tactics." Madam Hooch screeched, shooting up to where Malfoy was
> sliding back onto his Nimbus Two Thousand and One.
<snip>
>     Alicia took Gryffindor's penalty, but she was so angry she missed
> by several feet. 

I took this to mean that Gryffindor gets a penalty shot. I'd rework the
quote by Hooch to read, "Penalty shot! Penalty shot to Gryffindor! I've
never seen such tactics!" A penalty shot happens when team A breaks a
rule in a game so that team B gets to try and take a shot at their
goal.

Of course, I could be wrong. Anyone care to correct me? I'm not much of
a sports watcher either.

~Amber


=====
"toil, toil, toil, toil, toil,
TOIL!
the world is NOT made of money;
it's made of plants, roots, trees,
breaths of air, lizards darting in the leaves..."

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Sat May 12 21:09:02 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:09:02 -0000
Subject: who fouled whom?
Message-ID: <9dk8pe+7jcq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18641

I am not a sports fan, by any means. I read this part of GF and I am 
totally confused.

Shouldn't Slytherin get the penalty? Isn't Malfoy the one who 
committed the foul? It is a foul to grab another player's broomstick.

At the end, it says the Slytherins are delighted with Malfoy's foul 
on Harry... if this is the case, why did Gryffindor take the penalty?

Here is the quote from GF:

"Harry put on a huge burst of speed; the wind was roaring in
his ears; he stretched out his hand, but suddenly, the Firebolt
was slowing down --

    Horrified, he looked around. Malfoy had thrown himself forward,
grabbed hold of the Firebolt's tail, and was pulling it back.

    "You --"

    Harry was angry enough to hit Malfoy, but couldn't reach --
Malfoy was panting with the effort of holding onto the Firebolt,
but his eyes were sparkling maliciously. He had achieved what he'd
wanted to do -- the Snitch had disappeared again.

    "Penalty! Penalty to Gryffindor! I've never seen such
tactics." Madam Hooch screeched, shooting up to where Malfoy was
sliding back onto his Nimbus Two Thousand and One.

    "YOU CHEATING SCUM!" Lee Jordan was howling into the megaphone,
dancing out of Professor McGonagall's reach. "YOU FILTHY, CHEATING
B --"

    Professor McGonagall didn't even bother to tell him off.  She
was actually shaking her finger in Malfoy's direction, her hat had
fallen off, and she too was shouting furiously.

    Alicia took Gryffindor's penalty, but she was so angry she missed
by several feet. The Gryffindor team was losing concentration and
the Slytherins, delighted by Malfoy's foul on Harry, were being
spurred on to greater heights."









From starling823 at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 21:12:10 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:12:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
References: <20010512205315.18303.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001901c0db28$3de88fc0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18642

***>     "Penalty! Penalty to Gryffindor! I've never seen such
> tactics." Madam Hooch screeched, shooting up to where Malfoy was
> sliding back onto his Nimbus Two Thousand and One.
<snip>
>     Alicia took Gryffindor's penalty, but she was so angry she missed
> by several feet. 

I took this to mean that Gryffindor gets a penalty shot. I'd rework the
quote by Hooch to read, "Penalty shot! Penalty shot to Gryffindor! I've
never seen such tactics!" A penalty shot happens when team A breaks a
rule in a game so that team B gets to try and take a shot at their
goal. ****

I'll second that.
I used to play soccer back when I still did the athletic thing (long ago, in the timeline of a college student <g>) and "Penalty" refers to the shot granted to the team that was the victim of a foul.  The fouled team gets an open shot on the goal, and the team that committed the foul is not allowed to interfere, only the keeper gets to try to block the shot.  As this grants the fouled team a wonderful opportunity to bash a goal in (it's very hard to try to stop a penalty shot, you have only a split second to try to block the ball, which is why so many people start muttering when world cup finals come down to shots -- it's basically the accuracy of the kicking that will determine the game!)  So the shot is a penalty to the team that committed the foul.
As Amber said, it's technically a "penalty shot" but who wants to be bothered with the last word when just plain "penalty" sounds like so much more fun? <g>

Abbie, who still likes soccer and thinks bludgers are just the wizarding world's equivalent of the nasty fullback who once ran her over like a mack truck.
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amber 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, 12 May, 2001 4:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)



  --- Doreen Rich <nera at rconnect.com> wrote:
  > I am not a sports fan, by any means. I read this part of GF and I am 
  > totally confused.
  > 
  > Shouldn't Slytherin get the penalty? Isn't Malfoy the one who 
  > committed the foul? It is a foul to grab another player's broomstick.
  >
  > Here is the quote from GF:
  <snip>
  >     "Penalty! Penalty to Gryffindor! I've never seen such
  > tactics." Madam Hooch screeched, shooting up to where Malfoy was
  > sliding back onto his Nimbus Two Thousand and One.
  <snip>
  >     Alicia took Gryffindor's penalty, but she was so angry she missed
  > by several feet. 

  I took this to mean that Gryffindor gets a penalty shot. I'd rework the
  quote by Hooch to read, "Penalty shot! Penalty shot to Gryffindor! I've
  never seen such tactics!" A penalty shot happens when team A breaks a
  rule in a game so that team B gets to try and take a shot at their
  goal.

  Of course, I could be wrong. Anyone care to correct me? I'm not much of
  a sports watcher either.

  ~Amber


  =====
  "toil, toil, toil, toil, toil,
  TOIL!
  the world is NOT made of money;
  it's made of plants, roots, trees,
  breaths of air, lizards darting in the leaves..."

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From rachelhardisty at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 21:22:43 2001
From: rachelhardisty at yahoo.com (rachelhardisty at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:22:43 -0000
Subject: McGonnagal the cat
Message-ID: <9dk9j3+l7vo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18643

Hi, I have been lurking for a while now and although this may have 
come up before, I can't find the answer.

My question is this - in the first chapter of PS/SS, McGonnagal is 
sitting (as a cat) on the Dursley's fence all day.  When Dumbledore 
arrives he sits next to her and says 'hello Minerva' or something, 
she changes back, and says huffily 'how did you know it was me'?  
Well, surely if they know each other well (assuming they were both 
teaching at Hogwarts back then), Dumbledore would have seen Minerva 
in cat form many times?  She hardly keeps it a secret since she 
changes into a cat infront of Harry's class (in COS?).  How come she 
was surprised that he recognised her?

Also, if Dumbledore taught transfiguration before Minerva, isn't it a 
bit strange that HE'S not an animagus?  I know that if he turned out 
to be another unregistered animagus it would be a boring plotline 
since we already have found 4, but even so.




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 21:36:16 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 14:36:16 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
References: <20010512205315.18303.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com> <001901c0db28$3de88fc0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <013801c0db2b$93b89c80$db10eda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 18644

Hello,

> I took this to mean that Gryffindor gets a penalty shot. I'd rework the

I assumed that at first, too.  Then I realize that it'd be damn odd for the
Slytherins to be so *delighted* when the Gryffindors gets penalty shots.
But yes, I still agree.  I guess the Slytherins just have to be damn odd,
then.

little Alex




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Sat May 12 22:01:01 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 23:01:01 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] who fouled whom?
In-Reply-To: <9dk8pe+7jcq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPGDIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 18645

Doreen: <<<I am not a sports fan, by any means. I read this part of GF and I am
totally confused.
Shouldn't Slytherin get the penalty? Isn't Malfoy the one who committed the
foul? It is a foul to grab another player's broomstick.
At the end, it says the Slytherins are delighted with Malfoy's foul on Harry...
if this is the case, why did Gryffindor take the penalty?>>>

Little Alex: <<<I assumed that at first, too.  Then I realize that it'd be damn
odd for the Slytherins to be so *delighted* when the Gryffindors gets penalty
shots. But yes, I still agree.  I guess the Slytherins just have to be damn odd,
then.>>>

Well first I will point out that the book in question in PoA and it is chapter
15. The quote is still included below, but I will put my comment in here first.


At the stage of the game in question the score is such that whichever teams
seeker gets to the Snitch first will win The Quidditch Cup. The job of seeker
involves trying to capture the Snitch, but also involves stopping the opposing
seeker from getting it. The sport does not send people off for foul play and
instead just gives out penalties, which means that the opposition can score at
most 10 points, but also there is the chance they will get nothing.

Harry reacts to the Snitch first and has a head start on Draco. He will get
there first, which would result in a Gryffindor victory, unless Draco does
something. So he does the first thing that comes to mind and that is to grab of
Harry's broom to slow it down. In doing so he commits a foul, but much more
importantly stops Harry from getting to the Snitch and distracts him long enough
for the Snitch to vanish.

Yes Draco has committed a foul and yes the penalty is given against him. But
this is not that important. What is important is that he has kept his team in
the game. This is why the Slytherins are so happy with him. If Harry had caught
the Snitch they would have lost, but instead there is still the opportunity for
them to win. At times in sports you have to commit a foul to keep your team in
the game (hoping that the punishment from committing the foul is less than the
punishment from not committing it).

In sports such as this to say X gets the penalty means that the opposition, Y,
has committed the foul and that X now gets some sort of 'free shot', an
opportunity to score with fewer players involved (a one-on-one with the keeper
if my memory serves me correctly). Y commits the foul and has a penalty awarded
against them and X has the penalty awarded to them. The penalty is the free
shot. It is the punishment for breaking the laws of the game.

In the circumstances of the game Draco did the right thing. He took the action
that kept his team in the game.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote (PoA chapter 15 - The Quidditch Final):

"Harry put on a huge burst of speed; the wind was roaring in his ears; he
stretched out his hand, but suddenly, the Firebolt was slowing down --

Horrified, he looked around. Malfoy had thrown himself forward, grabbed hold of
the Firebolt's tail, and was pulling it back.

"You --"

Harry was angry enough to hit Malfoy, but couldn't reach -- Malfoy was panting
with the effort of holding onto the Firebolt, but his eyes were sparkling
maliciously. He had achieved what he'd wanted to do -- the Snitch had
disappeared again.

"Penalty! Penalty to Gryffindor! I've never seen such tactics." Madam Hooch
screeched, shooting up to where Malfoy was sliding back onto his Nimbus Two
Thousand and One.

"YOU CHEATING SCUM!" Lee Jordan was howling into the megaphone, dancing out of
Professor McGonagall's reach. "YOU FILTHY, CHEATING B --"

Professor McGonagall didn't even bother to tell him off.  She was actually
shaking her finger in Malfoy's direction, her hat had fallen off, and she too
was shouting furiously.

Alicia took Gryffindor's penalty, but she was so angry she missed by several
feet. The Gryffindor team was losing concentration and
the Slytherins, delighted by Malfoy's foul on Harry, were being spurred on to
greater heights."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Simon
--
"Insanity is inherited. You get it from you kids." - Anon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat May 12 22:07:36 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:07:36 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
References: <20010512205315.18303.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com> <001901c0db28$3de88fc0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu> <013801c0db2b$93b89c80$db10eda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <005601c0db2f$f460bbe0$634e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 18646

The Gryffindors got a free shot at the goal, the reason why the Slytherin's are happy is because Malfoy did something so devilishly underhanded that it outraged a bunch a people.  Remember the Slytherins LIKE to cheat and foul and all that and they LOVED Malfoy's grabbing Harry's broom in an attempt to win/keep the Gryffindors from winning.

Saitaina
http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
The Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the musty smell...
Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and Harry Potter Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Sat May 12 22:30:09 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 22:30:09 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP
In-Reply-To: <9djvbd+46bp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dkdhh+68u8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18647

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> 
wrote:
>  Does anybody else
> have a favorite pun?
> 
> Haggridd

Here's one of my favorites: [although not a pun]

The driver of the Knight Bus is Ernie Prang; a prang is a little 
crash in your car, like a fender-bender.

Ivis






From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat May 12 22:37:46 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
In-Reply-To: <004501c0daff$65def4c0$444e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010512223746.31912.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18648

> How does Snape know about the cloak? (GoF)  

He found it at the foot of the Whomping Willow tree when he went
charging out of the castle.  He would jump to the conclusion it was
Harry's because of the Malfoy-getting-hit-with-mud incident earlier
when Draco saw Harry's head "floating" in the air.

Harry's fear that Snape can read minds is often just Snape's uncanny
ability to put two and two together faster and more accurately than
most of the adults in the book.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From kirstyanne.wright at btinternet.com  Sat May 12 23:18:26 2001
From: kirstyanne.wright at btinternet.com (Kirsty Anne Wright)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 00:18:26 +0100
Subject: Virus
References: <001601c0db29$7ff6d9c0$a60c883e@r4i2e0> <000e01c0db31$e0ad2d20$1214a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <002b01c0db39$f7b92a20$674b893e@r4i2e0>

No: HPFGUIDX 18649

Hello

Probably none of you will know me but I lurk on a great deal of lists and
today caught a email worm virus and sent to a great many people because the
worm replies to all unread email and seems to go to personal addresses
instead of list ones so the list shouldn't have received it but people on it
might have. I am now sending this to all the list I am on because I don't
know who the worm went to. So sorry for the cross post
To those who have been affected I'm extremely sorry It was not intentional
and information about how to rid yourself of the worm can be found here.
http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=99069&
And any one who needs additional help removing it can feel free to email me
about it
 Again very sorry
Kirsty Wright





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 00:04:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 00:04:43 -0000
Subject: Old buds? was Moody-Crouch
In-Reply-To: <3AFD950F.EE2F3864@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9dkj2r+mb5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18650

Amanda wrote:

> Is there any evidence in canon that Dumbledore and Moody were 
friends?
> Longtime, close, whatever? 

Yes, though I can't cite chapter and verse 'cause I lent my GF.  When 
MEM is first mentioned (back at the Burrow after the QWC), Bill or 
Charlie says, "He's an old friend of Dumbledore's, isn't he?" and 
Harry, at least, assumes this to be true right up to the end, when one 
of the reasons he can't believe Moody is the Death Eater is that he's 
Dumbledore's friend.  I assumed it to be true as well.  But your point 
that he has been very reclusive is a good one; even going with the 
idea that he and AD have been good friends for a long time, they might 
not have seen much of each other in years.  That plus MEM's odd ways 
could explain a lot.  I just wonder about the little things friends 
know about each other:  "remember that time . . . "  It's so easy for 
an impersonator to stumble onto something he should know but doesn't.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 Snape made them all nervous, breathing down
 their necks while they tried to remember 
 how to make a Forgetfulness potion.
             -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
----------------------------------------------




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun May 13 00:05:40 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:05:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Old buds? was Moody-Crouch
In-Reply-To: <9dk7bh+jt7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010513000540.89772.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18651

--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> You could be right, but he does say it is a "great
> personal favour" 
> rather than a favour to the school, the MoM etc.  He
> also treats 
> Moody with slightly more familiarity than we are
> used to - I don't 
> think he often calls other teachers by their first
> names - at least 
> not in the presence of students, and I recall at
> least one instance 
> when he calls him Alastair instead of Professor
> Moody, which in my 
> mind shows that they have at least some
> history/friendship prior to 
> Hogwarts.  Also, we do not know exactly how much
> time they get to 
> spend together whilst at Hogwarts.


First off, thanks to Amanda for bringing this up! 
I've been meaning to ask this same question for quite
a while, and never got around to it.  I don't see any
evidence that Dumbledore and Moody are close personal
friends.  True, Dumbledore calls him "Alastor", but he
also calls both Snape and Lockhart by their first
names. (There may be other cases, but those are just
the ones I can think of off-hand.)  

I don't think that there's significant evidence either
way, but I think that assuming the Crouch-as-Moody
doesn't work because Moody and Dumbledore are friends
without any evidence that they *are* is a
little...odd.


Andrea

Phoenix feather, maple, 7 1/2 inches

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 00:08:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 00:08:44 -0000
Subject: Penalty to
In-Reply-To: <20010512205315.18303.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9dkjac+qp5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18652

Amber wrote:
> 
> I took this to mean that Gryffindor gets a penalty shot. I'd rework 
the
> quote by Hooch to read, "Penalty shot! Penalty shot to Gryffindor! 
I've
> never seen such tactics!" A penalty shot happens when team A breaks 
a
> rule in a game so that team B gets to try and take a shot at their
> goal.
> 
> Of course, I could be wrong. Anyone care to correct me? I'm not much 
of
> a sports watcher either.

It's just a sports expression.  "Penalty to Gryffindor," meaning that 
Gryffindor is awarded something due to the foul against it.  It's an 
odd phrasing, but seemed familiar to me--maybe from soccer, where I 
hear a lot of British announcers.  Or maybe I'm hallucinating and no 
one says this outside of Quidditch.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
   "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as 
 Quirrell stands up to Snape?" said Hermione in alarm.
   "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
-------------------------------------------------------




From wr7238 at msn.com  Sat May 12 19:14:07 2001
From: wr7238 at msn.com (Roy Mallett)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:14:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Douglas Adams is dead
Message-ID: <OE131m9t0CI76rOJhKP00003db1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18653

I remember when they showed those on the PBS Channel 2 in Boston. They also did a radio series of the first two books on the PBS radio station. Those where very funny stories. Will have to reread them for myself and to my boys. Thank you for letting the group know, with my boys I don't get to hear much news. That is sad news indeed.

Wanda The Witch of Revere, Ma.



----- Original Message -----
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 3:06 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Douglas Adams is dead


I was sorry to lean that Author Douglas Adams, the author of The  
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, died suddenly yesterday, he was  
only 49. By the way, if you like Harry Potter you'll probably like  
the Hitchhiker series of 5 books, I highly recommended them.   
    



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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 00:21:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 00:21:28 -0000
Subject: McGonnagal the cat
In-Reply-To: <9dk9j3+l7vo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dkk28+mbcu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18654

Rachel Hardisty delurked to write:

>Also, if Dumbledore taught transfiguration before Minerva, isn't it a 
>bit strange that HE'S not an animagus?  I know that if he turned out 
>to be another unregistered animagus it would be a boring plotline 
>since we already have found 4, but even so.

Welcome to the surface, Rachel!

He could be a registered one and Hermione, who seems only to have 
checked the 20th century ("there have only been seven Animagi this 
century," PA 18), wouldn't have found that out.  Dumbledore was born 
c. 1845, so he could have become an Animagus long before the century 
turned.

If Animagi are that rare, on the other hand, it may be a skill 
beyond many wizards, even those most skilled in Transfiguration.  
Or perhaps it just isn't worth the trouble for many.  One thing's sure 
in my mind, though:  Dumbledore =could= be one if he wanted to be.

Re: McGonagall's surprise that he recognized her--I don't think she 
should be surprised, since this is Albus Dumbledore we're dealing 
with, but I think most people wouldn't recognize her even if they'd 
seen her in cat form before.  One tabby looks much like another.  (I 
have always pictured her as a brown tabby, like my kitty, and was 
disappointed to learn that she will be a silver in the movie.  Humph.)

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
 "Someone attacking you, Harry?" Seamus asked sleepily.
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------------




From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 00:42:41 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 00:42:41 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Foul in GF...
Message-ID: <F114b6uIU1Gj03oHMwV0000382b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18655




>From: "Doreen Rich" <nera at rconnect.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
>Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 20:45:05 -0000
>
>I am not a sports fan, by any means. I read this part of GF and I am
>totally confused.
>
>Shouldn't Slytherin get the penalty? Isn't Malfoy the one who
>committed the foul? It is a foul to grab another player's broomstick.
>
>At the end, it says the Slytherins are delighted with Malfoy's foul
>on Harry... if this is the case, why did Gryffindor take the penalty?
>
>Here is the quote from GF:
>
>"Harry put on a huge burst of speed; the wind was roaring in
>his ears; he stretched out his hand, but suddenly, the Firebolt
>was slowing down --
>
>     Horrified, he looked around. Malfoy had thrown himself forward,
>grabbed hold of the Firebolt's tail, and was pulling it back.
>
>     "You --"
>
>     Harry was angry enough to hit Malfoy, but couldn't reach --
>Malfoy was panting with the effort of holding onto the Firebolt,
>but his eyes were sparkling maliciously. He had achieved what he'd
>wanted to do -- the Snitch had disappeared again.
>
>     "Penalty! Penalty to Gryffindor! I've never seen such
>tactics." Madam Hooch screeched, shooting up to where Malfoy was
>sliding back onto his Nimbus Two Thousand and One.
<rest of quote snipped for brevity>

I think this is just sports weirdness- a foul is 'to' the team it is 
committed against. This is seen in at least one other Quiddich match and I 
seem to remember hearing it when listening to a soccer game being announced 
on the radio.

Cait and Corgis, who listen to NPR too much.

http://k9rainbow.tripod.com/photos/
"Are You Going To Eat That?"
"Are you going to eat that?" If not,
Then I will eat that.
-Corgi Haiku
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From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 01:20:42 2001
From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 22:20:42 -0300
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <F243qlSIjSa1nJI4PE000001930@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18656

In the last couple of weeks someone posted a e mail about Magic in the 
Bible. Being a practicing witch I found it quite interesting if whoever 
wrote it could send it too me it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Heidi H
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 01:22:13 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 01:22:13 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F133SxvjPkQTGp000060c0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18657

Amber wrote:
>I took this to mean that Gryffindor gets a penalty shot. I'd rework the
>quote by Hooch to read, "Penalty shot! Penalty shot to Gryffindor! I've
>never seen such tactics!" A penalty shot happens when team A breaks a
>rule in a game so that team B gets to try and take a shot at their
>goal.
>
>Of course, I could be wrong. Anyone care to correct me? I'm not much of
>a sports watcher either.

Not much of a sports fan either, but I do know that in football - alright, 
"soccer" if you must :) - a free shot at goal with only the keeper to beat 
is generally referred to as a penalty, not a penalty shot.  It is awarded to 
the side that was fouled, and against the side doing the fouling.  Regarding 
any other confusion over this passage, surely the Slyths are cheering 
because the penalty was missed?

"The referee may award penalties against a team.  The Chaser taking the 
penalty will fly from the central circle towards the scoring area.  All 
players other than the opposing Keeper must keep well back while the penalty 
is taken."
Kenilworth Whisp, Quidditch Through The Ages.
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From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 01:33:26 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 01:33:26 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wordplay in HP
Message-ID: <LAW2-F71YixMwInhdAH00006115@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18658

Ivis wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...>
>wrote:
> >  Does anybody else
> > have a favorite pun?
> >
> > Haggridd
>
>Here's one of my favorites: [although not a pun]
>
>The driver of the Knight Bus is Ernie Prang; a prang is a little
>crash in your car, like a fender-bender.
>
>Ivis

One of my faves, too, though I would say a prang is a write-off, rather than 
a fender-bender.  I'm also quite fond of Professor Vindictus Viridian, 
author of "Curses and Counter-Curses (Bewitch your Friends and Befuddle your 
Enemies with the Latest Revenges: Hair Loss, Jelly-Legs, Tongue-Tying and 
much, much more) - hey, perhaps that's how Snape knew so many curses so 
young!  Another subtle one is Professor Binns, whom I imagine wearing very 
thick lenses - "bins" (from binoculars) is a slang term for spectacles.
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From joym999 at aol.com  Sun May 13 02:57:03 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 02:57:03 -0000
Subject: McGonnagal the cat
In-Reply-To: <9dkk28+mbcu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dkt5v+qrnk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18659

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Rachel Hardisty delurked to write:
> 
> >Also, if Dumbledore taught transfiguration before Minerva, isn't 
it a 
> >bit strange that HE'S not an animagus?  I know that if he turned 
out 
> >to be another unregistered animagus it would be a boring plotline 
> >since we already have found 4, but even so.
> 
> Welcome to the surface, Rachel!
> 
> He could be a registered one and Hermione, who seems only to have 
> checked the 20th century ("there have only been seven Animagi this 
> century," PA 18), wouldn't have found that out.  Dumbledore was 
born 
> c. 1845, so he could have become an Animagus long before the 
century 
> turned.

It is certainly possible that Dumbledore is an animagus who was 
registered in the previous century, but I think it is also possible 
that Dumbledore is one of the 7 Animagi registered in the 20th 
century.  There is no reason for Hermione to have said "there have 
only been seven Animagi this century, one of whom is Professor 
Dumbledore"  It is possible that Hermione did not think it was 
important (there was an awful lot going on at the time, after all) to 
mention that Dumbledore was one of the seven.  Another possibility is 
that the fact that Dumbledore is an animagus is so well known that 
there was no point in her mentioning it.  Anyway, I have never 
understood why everyone except me seems to believe that Dumbledore 
could not be one of those seven.

--Joywitch




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun May 13 04:07:05 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 04:07:05 -0000
Subject: Brand-New Skrewts (filk)
Message-ID: <9dl199+auo0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18660

Brand-New Skrewt (from GoF, Chap. 13)

Dedicated to Angela Boyko

(To the tune of Brand-New Key)

(The Scene: Hagrid's cabin. He begins his first class of the year in 
a state of great excitement)

HAGRID
I thought at breeding creatures I'd take a stab
I crossed a manticore with a fire crab
The offspring they made you will find in this crate
Let's rush to open it, oh I just can't wait

`Cause I've got a brand-new herd of baby Skrewts
They're a brand-new species
As you can see, everyone of them's a beaut
They're pretty as you please
They don't seem to have mouthparts
We don't know if they'll eat
But we'll raise a herd of cuddly baby Skrewts
It will be really neat

HARRY, RON & HERMIONE
Good thing for Hagrid that we all love him so 
Otherwise his Skrewts we'd put six feet below
He seems to think that Skrewts are a real blast
But every time we see them we all feel aghast

`Cause he's got a brand-new herd of growing Skrewts
They're like a grim disease
Hagrid seems to think that they're all so cute
But they put us at unease
They lacerate and they burn us
Their odor is all too acute 
But until we're rid of Hagrid's brand-new pets
All three of us are *Skrewt*

      - CMC










From joym999 at aol.com  Sun May 13 04:15:05 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 04:15:05 -0000
Subject: NY Times article
Message-ID: <9dl1o9+leh3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18661

Todays (May 12) NY Times has an article entitled:

*An Improbable Sequel: Harry Potter and the Ivory Tower*

It is not actually all that interesting, IMHO.  Most of it is about 
an academic conference on the Medieval, and only a little bit on HP, 
but here are the relevant bits.  (I know its a lot, but since it is 
only a small section of a very long article, I dont think I am 
breaking any copyright laws here.):

***START ARTICLE***

KALAMAZOO, Mich. ? Millions of books after Harry Potter became the 
most beguiling wizard of the modern age, scholars have welcomed him 
into the temple of Muggle academia.

"If you look closely, you see a lot of Arthurian components," said 
Heather Arden, a professor at the University of Cincinnati who has 
drawn parallels between J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories and 
classic medieval legends. "So much of it fits into wonderful ancient 
patterns." 

That a best-selling children's book would be the subject of scholarly 
attention isn't a surprise; after all, academics have delved into the 
finer points of everything from Martha Stewart to table salt. But 
this engagement with the modern world is a hallmark of the 
International Congress on Medieval Studies, a yearly conference held 
at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, which attracted Ms. 
Arden and about 3,000 other scholars earlier this month. 

[snip many paragraphs of blather]

In keeping with the conference's informal atmosphere, the professors 
who discussed Harry Potter assumed roles as witches on the faculty at 
Hogwarts, the school where he studies wizardry. Their paper was in 
the form of a dialogue about Harry's proposed senior thesis comparing 
Hogwarts to the court of King Arthur. The professors, Ms. Arden and 
Kathryn Lorenz, started by noting physical similarities like 
invisible doors, magical animals and the use of parchment, sealing 
wax and coats of arms. From there they turned to thematic devices 
like the ease with which characters move between normal and abnormal 
worlds.

"Like Arthur, Harry is destined to make an exemplary stand against 
the forces of evil and chaos," Ms. Arden said. "The phenomenal 
popularity of the Potter chronicles may be linked to the way they 
reflect the underlying attractions of the Arthurian world. They give 
their readers a picture of a wonderful community centered on a 
superhuman leader and made up of exceptional individuals of whom the 
hero is the most exceptional."

And that explains the continuing hold that medieval themes have on 
people, she added. "The hero himself, whether Arthur, Percivale or 
our own Harry Potter, shows us that a seemingly ordinary orphan child 
can turn out to be an exceptional person. Perhaps the greatest 
quality shared by Harry and the Arthurian hero is to show us the 
power of imagination to transform the established boundaries between 
things and people, to show us the possibilities of other worlds."

--Joywitch




From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Sun May 13 05:21:25 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 07:21:25 +0200
Subject: Snapes mission.
Message-ID: <20010513050911.770EB115E7@postfix1.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18662

I realize that this is a much different way of thinking than most have, but 
hve you considered taht Snapes mission at the end of GoF maybe doesnt have 
anything to do with Voldemort as such. Maybe Dumbledore is simply giving him 
the job of coordinating the Order of the Phoenix's activities as well as 
having him take the job as DADA teacher. He would be excellent suited for both 
jobs with his knowledge of Dark Magic and Death Eater rutines. Considering his 
past, he would probably feel very proud that Dumbledore trusts him to do these 
jobs, but at the same time very annoyed, because he in those positions would 
have to be friendly with, and work closely together with people he detests 
like Lupin and the others in the "old crowd", and as a DADA teacher under the 
given circumstances he would even have to help out our Griffyndor friends in 
classes to prepare them as good as possible for the future events.

Darreder

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From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Sun May 13 05:26:25 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 07:26:25 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] NY Times article
Message-ID: <20010513051411.502BB114A5@postfix1.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18663

Very interesting, BUT: 
While the Arthur legend may hold much sway in some countries, in others such 
as Denmark where I live for instance it is only little known actually.

So while it is an interesting theory, the Potter/Arthur similarities can only 
be a small part of the explanation of the books popularity. That is, if you 
need any explanation other than it is a damn good series.

Darreder

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com =====
>Todays (May 12) NY Times has an article entitled:
>
>*An Improbable Sequel: Harry Potter and the Ivory Tower*
>
>It is not actually all that interesting, IMHO.  Most of it is about
>an academic conference on the Medieval, and only a little bit on HP,
>but here are the relevant bits.  (I know its a lot, but since it is
>only a small section of a very long article, I dont think I am
>breaking any copyright laws here.):
>
>***START ARTICLE***
>
>KALAMAZOO, Mich. ? Millions of books after Harry Potter became the
>most beguiling wizard of the modern age, scholars have welcomed him
>into the temple of Muggle academia.
>
>"If you look closely, you see a lot of Arthurian components," said
>Heather Arden, a professor at the University of Cincinnati who has
>drawn parallels between J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories and
>classic medieval legends. "So much of it fits into wonderful ancient
>patterns."
>
>That a best-selling children's book would be the subject of scholarly
>attention isn't a surprise; after all, academics have delved into the
>finer points of everything from Martha Stewart to table salt. But
>this engagement with the modern world is a hallmark of the
>International Congress on Medieval Studies, a yearly conference held
>at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, which attracted Ms.
>Arden and about 3,000 other scholars earlier this month.
>
>[snip many paragraphs of blather]
>
>In keeping with the conference's informal atmosphere, the professors
>who discussed Harry Potter assumed roles as witches on the faculty at
>Hogwarts, the school where he studies wizardry. Their paper was in
>the form of a dialogue about Harry's proposed senior thesis comparing
>Hogwarts to the court of King Arthur. The professors, Ms. Arden and
>Kathryn Lorenz, started by noting physical similarities like
>invisible doors, magical animals and the use of parchment, sealing
>wax and coats of arms. >From there they turned to thematic devices
>like the ease with which characters move between normal and abnormal
>worlds.
>
>"Like Arthur, Harry is destined to make an exemplary stand against
>the forces of evil and chaos," Ms. Arden said. "The phenomenal
>popularity of the Potter chronicles may be linked to the way they
>reflect the underlying attractions of the Arthurian world. They give
>their readers a picture of a wonderful community centered on a
>superhuman leader and made up of exceptional individuals of whom the
>hero is the most exceptional."
>
>And that explains the continuing hold that medieval themes have on
>people, she added. "The hero himself, whether Arthur, Percivale or
>our own Harry Potter, shows us that a seemingly ordinary orphan child
>can turn out to be an exceptional person. Perhaps the greatest
>quality shared by Harry and the Arthurian hero is to show us the
>power of imagination to transform the established boundaries between
>things and people, to show us the possibilities of other worlds."
>
>--Joywitch
>
>
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>
>All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, 
to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read 
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>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
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From carissabradley at aol.com  Sun May 13 05:21:21 2001
From: carissabradley at aol.com (carissabradley at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 05:21:21 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP
In-Reply-To: <9djvbd+46bp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dl5kh+ira7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18664

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > My favorite pun has not lasted byond PS, sadly.  It is he Inn 
where 
> Hagrid got his dragon egg, The Hogshead.  You have the Head of a 
Hog, 
> naturally, and the carrying forth of the Hog theme of Hogsmeade, 
but 
> you also have the delicious fact that a hogshead is a big keg of 
ale 
> equal in measure to that of three barrels.  I was so disappointed
> when JKR used The Three Broomsticks in later books.  Does anybody 
else
> have a favorite pun?
> 
> Haggridd


Hi everyone - I'm new to the list and to HP.  I've read all of the 
books only in the last 3 weeks.  One of my favorite things about the 
books is JKR's writing and how everything is basically revealed to us 
but we are still suprised when we find out what was really going on.  
I hope you all do not think I am a simpleton, but my favorite play on 
words is the most probably obvious in all of the books.  It is how 
Tom Marvolo Riddle's name is actually a riddle - rearrange the words 
and you get, of course "I am Lord Voldemort."  Should've known.  Who 
would name thier child Marvolo. :)

Carissa




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 06:12:52 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 06:12:52 -0000
Subject: OT: Cans open, worms everywhere
In-Reply-To: <3AFD9314.3F393546@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9dl8l4+gl43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18665

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> Do you want it in Latin?
> 
> --Amanda

I'm wondering how, since there is no word for "cans" in Latin,
you would accomplish this.  "can" is from Middle English canne, a
water container, from Old English.

How's this for a suggestion:

"opus figulinus" is an earthen pot or crock (found in Pliny,
according to the Perseus site at Tufts); literally, however, it's
a potter's [Potter's ;^) ] work.  And the resonance with Ms. Figg
is pretty cool too.  [bwg]

Thus, one could say:

"Operibus figulinibus apertis, usque quaque vermes."

I admit, that's not the simplest translation, but I'm a sucker for
phrases like "usque quaque" and I absolutely adore the ablative
absolute.

....Craig




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 13 06:52:45 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 23:52:45 -0700
Subject: Invisibiility Cloak - Moody - Kitty - Marvolo
Message-ID: <3AFE2F3C.F0419D07@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18666

Keep on scrolling down: the most important remark in this post is the
one about Alastor Moody's name.

Morag Traynor wrote:
> JKR reinforces this point in FB, where we find that they are
> made from the hair of the Far Eastern Demiguise which "can
> be seen only by wizards skilled in its capture"

Reading FB, I was (and am) irritated by how magical artifacts get their
powers from being made of magical beasts rather than from the magic of
the witch or wizard who made them.

Catherine wrote:
> I don't think he often calls other teachers by their first names
> - at least not in the presence of students, and I recall at least
> one instance when he calls him Alastair instead of Professor Moody,

In GoF, in the room where the four Champions gathered just after being
selected, when Snape said to the other headmasters something about Don't
go blaming Dumbledore for Harry always breaking rules, Dumbledore called
Snape to heel by saying one warning word: "Severus." And IIRC he calls
Moody by first name when warning him off, as well.

Moody's first name is Alastor not Alastair. This matters because Alastor
is a real word. It means a spirit of vengeance (like a male equivalent
of Nemesis) or a spirit that pursues and torments a person.

Amy Z wrote:
> (I have always pictured her as a brown tabby, like my
> kitty, and was disappointed to learn that she will be a
> silver in the movie.  Humph.)

I've always pictured Minerva's cat form as an orange tabby, even tho'
for some reason male orange tabbies are more common than female orange
tabbies. Cat books say that in Britain, blotch tabbies are more common
than stripe tabbies like we have in USA.

Carissa Bradley wrote:
>   Who would name their child Marvolo. :)

To me it seems a perfectly reasonable name in a culture which finds it
perfectly reasonable to name their children Albus and Minerva and Sirius
and Severus and Draco.

By the way, I've always thought Carissa is a very pretty name.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 12:22:19 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:22:19 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Invisibiility Cloak - Moody - Kitty - Marvolo
Message-ID: <LAW2-F115xHgnfOHrdZ00006534@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18667

Rita wrote and quoted:
>Morag Traynor wrote:
> > JKR reinforces this point in FB, where we find that they are
> > made from the hair of the Far Eastern Demiguise which "can
> > be seen only by wizards skilled in its capture"
>
>Reading FB, I was (and am) irritated by how magical artifacts get their
>powers from being made of magical beasts rather than from the magic of
>the witch or wizard who made them.

I rather liked that aspect as having a fair amount of explanatory power - it 
allows that some things, as invisibility cloaks above, can be rarer than 
others, some can be used, or mis-used by Muggles etc.  It also shows that 
wizards are, like us, dependent on a natural world.

>Catherine wrote:
> > I don't think he often calls other teachers by their first names
> > - at least not in the presence of students, and I recall at least
> > one instance when he calls him Alastair instead of Professor Moody,
>
>In GoF, in the room where the four Champions gathered just after being
>selected, when Snape said to the other headmasters something about Don't
>go blaming Dumbledore for Harry always breaking rules, Dumbledore called
>Snape to heel by saying one warning word: "Severus." And IIRC he calls
>Moody by first name when warning him off, as well.

IMO, Dumbledore bandies first names about far more than you would expect in 
the old-fashioned ambience of the books.  He calls Mme Pomfrey "Poppy" as 
well (can't find "pomfrey" in the dict, but it reminds me of "comfrey" a 
medicinal herb.  Does anyone know where it comes from?  I still find it odd 
to hear cabinet ministers referring to each other as "Tony" and "Robin", 
when well within my memory they would have used more formal addresses.  A 
pity Dumbledore has not had occasion to speak to Mme Hooch - I'd love to 
know her first name :)
>
>Moody's first name is Alastor not Alastair. This matters because >Alastor 
>is a real word. It means a spirit of vengeance (like a male >equivalent of 
>Nemesis) or a spirit that pursues and torments a person.

Thanks - I didn't know that!  JKR is a genius at naming.

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 12:42:29 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 08:42:29 -0400
Subject: AD animagus? - Animal artifacts - Alastor
Message-ID: <F163pDS7hx27kBnccYT000052c5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18668

My, what an alliterative subject line.

Joywitch wrote:

>It is certainly possible that Dumbledore is an animagus who was registered 
>in the previous century, but I think it is also possible that Dumbledore is 
>one of the 7 Animagi registered in the 20th century.  There is no reason 
>for Hermione to have said "there have only been seven Animagi this century, 
>one of whom is Professor Dumbledore"  It is possible that Hermione did not 
>think it was important (there was an awful lot going on at the time, after 
>all) to mention that Dumbledore was one of the seven.  Another possibility 
>is that the fact that Dumbledore is an animagus is so well known that there 
>was no point in her mentioning it.  Anyway, I have never understood why 
>everyone except me seems to believe that Dumbledore could not be one of 
>those seven.

You're right, of course.  He could be, very easily.  It makes him a bit on 
the old side when he registered, but as I said before, just because 
someone's brilliant at Transfiguration it doesn't mean he's going to rush to 
become an Animagus.  It seems like the kind of thing one might learn when 
the times demand it, e.g. when Grindelwald rose to power.

Catlady wrote:

>Reading FB, I was (and am) irritated by how magical artifacts get their
>powers from being made of magical beasts rather than from the magic of
>the witch or wizard who made them.

We're bound to get this impression from FB, because it's about, well, FB.  
If the book were "1001 Magical Artifacts," I think we'd get a different 
impression.  Lots of magical artifacts get their power from charms or other 
wizard/witch origins, e.g. broomsticks.

>Alastor is a real word. It means a spirit of vengeance (like a male 
>equivalent
of Nemesis) or a spirit that pursues and torments a person.

It's also a long poem by P. Shelley, which I recommend.  The title may not 
be an appropriate one; the poem is subtitled "The Spirit of Solitude," and 
while the title was suggested by a friend of Shelley's who interpreted 
solitude as an evil spirit, it's not at all clear from the poem or anything 
else we know about Shelley that he thought of solitude that way.  I got that 
observation from the preface in my _English Romantic Poets_, ed. David 
Perkins.  Now I have to go reread the poem.

Amy Z
who loves solitude and Shelley
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From jenfold at yahoo.com  Sun May 13 13:06:12 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:06:12 -0000
Subject: Moody-Crouch
In-Reply-To: <9djq1t+pev7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dm0s4+14ki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18669

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Penny wrote:
> 
> >We know from CoS that polyjuice potion does not give
> > the person who takes the potion the 
thoughts/mind/knowledge/memory 
> of
> > the person whose appearance is taken on (that is, Harry & Ron 
look 
> like
> > Crabbe & Goyle, but they still retain their own minds; they don't 
> know
> > where to find the Slytherin common room, etc.).  So .... how 
exactly 
> did
> > Crouch Jr. know enough about Moody to hoodwink Dumbledore for 
such 
> an
> > extended period of time?  How would he have found out so much 
about 
> him
> > & his quirks & personality traits?  
> 
> He interrogates him as needed all year, using the Imperius Curse 
> ("Veritaserum"); that's why he keeps him alive (though he may also 
> do so because you can only make Polyjuice out of stuff from a 
> still-living person--I wonder).  Even so it seems a little weak; 
> impersonating someone well enough to fool his longtime friend must 
be 
> very hard to pull off.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
 I've wondered if Crouch Senior may have know Moody well enough for 
Junior to pick up hints about his personality. Moody certainly worked 
under Crouch during his time as a Ministry Official and seems in the 
pensieve chapter to share Crouch Senior's opinions more than he 
shares Dumbledores. And even if they were not friends it's fairly 
possible that Crouch Snr may have come home from time to time and 
grumbled about 'Mad old Moody' to his house bound son.

 Jen

 Wand: Unicorn Hair, Willow, Ten Inches.  




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun May 13 13:58:12 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:58:12 -0000
Subject: Happy Mother's Day OT
Message-ID: <9dm3tk+fjnd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18670

Happy Mother's Day to new Mom Penny, and all the  other magical and 
Muggle moms on the list!

Pippin





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May 13 14:02:37 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 14:02:37 -0000
Subject: who fouled whom?
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEPGDIAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9dm45t+m5a3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18671

Thank you! Now it all makes sense. Yes, it would have been more 
important to stop Harry ... and I am assuming that it was this action 
which also upset Alicia so much that she missed the freethrow. It all 
comes together now.

Doreen, who understands better but still does not like sports :)


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon at h...> wrote:
> Doreen: <<<I am not a sports fan, by any means. I read this part of 
GF and I am
> totally confused.
> Shouldn't Slytherin get the penalty? Isn't Malfoy the one who 
committed the
> foul? It is a foul to grab another player's broomstick.
> At the end, it says the Slytherins are delighted with Malfoy's foul 
on Harry...
> if this is the case, why did Gryffindor take the penalty?>>>
> 
> Little Alex: <<<I assumed that at first, too.  Then I realize that 
it'd be damn
> odd for the Slytherins to be so *delighted* when the Gryffindors 
gets penalty
> shots. But yes, I still agree.  I guess the Slytherins just have to 
be damn odd,
> then.>>>
> 
> Well first I will point out that the book in question in PoA and it 
is chapter
> 15. The quote is still included below, but I will put my comment in 
here first.
> 
> 
> At the stage of the game in question the score is such that 
whichever teams
> seeker gets to the Snitch first will win The Quidditch Cup. The job 
of seeker
> involves trying to capture the Snitch, but also involves stopping 
the opposing
> seeker from getting it. The sport does not send people off for foul 
play and
> instead just gives out penalties, which means that the opposition 
can score at
> most 10 points, but also there is the chance they will get nothing.
> 
> Harry reacts to the Snitch first and has a head start on Draco. He 
will get
> there first, which would result in a Gryffindor victory, unless 
Draco does
> something. So he does the first thing that comes to mind and that 
is to grab of
> Harry's broom to slow it down. In doing so he commits a foul, but 
much more
> importantly stops Harry from getting to the Snitch and distracts 
him long enough
> for the Snitch to vanish.
> 
> Yes Draco has committed a foul and yes the penalty is given against 
him. But
> this is not that important. What is important is that he has kept 
his team in
> the game. This is why the Slytherins are so happy with him. If 
Harry had caught
> the Snitch they would have lost, but instead there is still the 
opportunity for
> them to win. At times in sports you have to commit a foul to keep 
your team in
> the game (hoping that the punishment from committing the foul is 
less than the
> punishment from not committing it).
> 
> In sports such as this to say X gets the penalty means that the 
opposition, Y,
> has committed the foul and that X now gets some sort of 'free 
shot', an
> opportunity to score with fewer players involved (a one-on-one with 
the keeper
> if my memory serves me correctly). Y commits the foul and has a 
penalty awarded
> against them and X has the penalty awarded to them. The penalty is 
the free
> shot. It is the punishment for breaking the laws of the game.
> 
> In the circumstances of the game Draco did the right thing. He took 
the action
> that kept his team in the game.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> 
> Quote (PoA chapter 15 - The Quidditch Final):
> 
> "Harry put on a huge burst of speed; the wind was roaring in his 
ears; he
> stretched out his hand, but suddenly, the Firebolt was slowing 
down --
> 
> Horrified, he looked around. Malfoy had thrown himself forward, 
grabbed hold of
> the Firebolt's tail, and was pulling it back.
> 
> "You --"
> 
> Harry was angry enough to hit Malfoy, but couldn't reach -- Malfoy 
was panting
> with the effort of holding onto the Firebolt, but his eyes were 
sparkling
> maliciously. He had achieved what he'd wanted to do -- the Snitch 
had
> disappeared again.
> 
> "Penalty! Penalty to Gryffindor! I've never seen such tactics." 
Madam Hooch
> screeched, shooting up to where Malfoy was sliding back onto his 
Nimbus Two
> Thousand and One.
> 
> "YOU CHEATING SCUM!" Lee Jordan was howling into the megaphone, 
dancing out of
> Professor McGonagall's reach. "YOU FILTHY, CHEATING B --"
> 
> Professor McGonagall didn't even bother to tell him off.  She was 
actually
> shaking her finger in Malfoy's direction, her hat had fallen off, 
and she too
> was shouting furiously.
> 
> Alicia took Gryffindor's penalty, but she was so angry she missed 
by several
> feet. The Gryffindor team was losing concentration and
> the Slytherins, delighted by Malfoy's foul on Harry, were being 
spurred on to
> greater heights."
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> 
> 
> Simon
> --
> "Insanity is inherited. You get it from you kids." - Anon
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------




From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Sun May 13 15:19:23 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen Dei)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:19:23 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Latin (was boggart)
References: <9dgq40+n820@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001501c0dbc0$207339c0$659a74d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 18672

Since I don't want to fill anyone's box with something they might not deem of interest, I will only give the first paragraphs of a reflection I wrote for my HP website.  Yes, her Latin/French usage is wonderful.  Although it can throw you a bit as when she combines the two language in "Morsmordre!" 

  
EXPECTO PATRONUM!

By now everyone has discovered the meaning of the incantation, "Expecto Patronum". Flawless Latin for "I expect a patron." A defender, a helper, a protector. But is that correct? There is another step to take in uncovering the meaning of the incantation. Any decent Latin dictionary will tell you that the root of patronus is pater--father. The real cry Rowling places on Harry's lips is : I expect a father. And while we might slip by with translating "I expect a patron" into "Expecto patronum" (and I only say 'might'), you would never get away with translating "Expecto patronum" as "I expect a patron." Expectare in Latin is far more intense. It is to long for, to desire, to hope for, to lean out the windows as your eyes scour the horizon. Which rather fits the scene--when encircled by dementors, one does tend to feel rather strongly about the idea of assistance!

Expecto patronus. "I yearn for a father" is really the heart of the second book, The Chamber of Secrets, or so it seems to me. There is a search going on in the book Indeed in all three books. Harry is rightly named "the seeker." The search for one's father, and most important, what happens when he isn't there.....

www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/patronus.html

Lumen Dei
Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop  -- "Have Wand, Will Wave"
www.geocities.com/lumen_dei


  Graig told us:

  > Well, patronus (long mark on the a and the o) is straightforward
  > Latin, second declension, meaning "protector, defender, patron".

  I think this site might interest very many of us, since Latin is a 
  part of HP books:

  www.yle.fi/fbc/latini

  It's Finnish radio that sends Nuntii Latini-program via satellite all 
  over the world. Five minutes of latest news in latin once a week. I 
  think they started sending programs in the Net too lately. They also 
  answer questions about latin and from archives you can read news few 
  months back.

  I have studied latin only a year, but it is delightful to understand 
  what charms mean and where the names come from. I have also enjoyed 
  very much of your discussion about names and their origins. I just 
  thought if anybody is interested about collecting HP names in finnish 
  I could look them up.

  Jenny
  zenonah at yahoo.com



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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun May 13 16:32:34 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:32:34 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP
In-Reply-To: <9dl5kh+ira7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dmcv2+rbsp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18673

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., carissabradley at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > > My favorite pun has not lasted byond PS, sadly.  It is he Inn 
> where 
> > Hagrid got his dragon egg, The Hogshead.  You have the Head of a 
> Hog, 
> > naturally, and the carrying forth of the Hog theme of Hogsmeade, 
> but 
> > you also have the delicious fact that a hogshead is a big keg of 
> ale 
> > equal in measure to that of three barrels.  I was so disappointed
> > when JKR used The Three Broomsticks in later books.  Does anybody 
> else
> > have a favorite pun?
> > 
> > Haggridd
> 
> 
> Hi everyone - I'm new to the list and to HP.  I've read all of the 
> books only in the last 3 weeks.  One of my favorite things about the 
> books is JKR's writing and how everything is basically revealed to 
us 
> but we are still suprised when we find out what was really going on. 
 
> I hope you all do not think I am a simpleton, but my favorite play 
on 
> words is the most probably obvious in all of the books.  It is how 
> Tom Marvolo Riddle's name is actually a riddle - rearrange the words 
> and you get, of course "I am Lord Voldemort."  Should've known.  Who 
> would name thier child Marvolo. :)
> 
> Carissa

Hi Carissa!  Technically, Tom's name is not a riddle, but an anagram. 
It certainly is wordplay, though.  I wonder how they will deal with it 
in the movie, because they changed the spelling, so that the anagram 
will not work.

Haggridd




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 13 17:05:51 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:05:51 -0000
Subject: TMR (was Wordplay in HP
In-Reply-To: <9dmcv2+rbsp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dmetf+5re5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18674

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

> Hi Carissa!  Technically, Tom's name is not a riddle, but an
> anagram. It certainly is wordplay, though.  I wonder how they will
> deal with it in the movie, because they changed the spelling, so 
> that the anagram will not work.

They appear to have changed the surname from Riddle to Ryddle. 
Changing the I to a Y. Perhaps they intend to change the anagram 
from "I am Lord Voldemort" to "My name is Lord Voldemort". That 
would require extra leters M N E I S. Maybe they will give him 
two middle names, Tom Marvolo Simen Ryddle. I think I must be 
typing in my sleep.




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Sun May 13 17:17:30 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:17:30 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP - Places HP is mentioned
Message-ID: <9dmfja+vfu1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18675

Hello!

I know it's not a pun, but I like the fact that Diagon Alley sounds 
and looks like "diagonally", and you have to move your wand 
diagonally to enter Diagon Alley! 

I also like the fact that Snape sounds very much like snake, the 
symbol for the house which he is head of (I'm not sure that last bit 
made sense, but I hope you know what I mean).

I think JKR chooses her words very very carefully and there are quite 
a few little *jokes* for adults reading the books to children. Or 
just reading them. Or babysitters reading the books to children, 
which is how I started. ;)

Sarah, returning to reality greatly saddened by the death of one of 
her favourite authors, Douglas Adams.






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun May 13 17:20:47 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:20:47 -0000
Subject: Results of the Last Sentence Contest
Message-ID: <9dmfpf+4boh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18676

Now that the responses to the last sentence/scar thingy have more or 
less dried up, I would like to honor the three most original entries.
This list is not by any means official, these are merely my personal 
favorites.

In chronological order, we have #18561 by Rebecca; #18566 by CMC; and 
#18602 by Florence.  Two of the above were serious, one was
humerous-- all were clever.

I hope you all found this little exercise entertaining.  I certainly 
did.  All entrants have my personal thanks.

Haggridd




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 17:28:17 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:28:17 -0000
Subject: one more Quidditch note (was who fouled whom?)
In-Reply-To: <9dm45t+m5a3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dmg7h+ihnq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18677

Doreen wrote:

> Thank you! Now it all makes sense. Yes, it would have been more 
> important to stop Harry ... and I am assuming that it was this 
action 
> which also upset Alicia so much that she missed the freethrow. It 
all 
> comes together now.

One more thing:  it's not a free throw, as in basketball, where no 
one is allowed to block your foul shot/penalty shot so the percentage 
of success is very high.  It's a one-on-one shot on goal where no one 
else can block the Chaser, but the Keeper is allowed to block the 
shot, as in football (soccer).  So Alicia isn't just rattled--penalty 
shots aren't easy to make in any circumstances.

Amy Z
Monday-morning Chaser (or I guess it would be Sunday-morning, since 
the games all seem to be on Saturday)




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun May 13 17:38:47 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:38:47 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More of Moody and  Marvolo
References: <LAW2-F115xHgnfOHrdZ00006534@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <020f01c0dbd3$928bed00$604e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 18678

Dumbledore does call a lot of teacher (okay four that I can recall) by their first names, but each of them have a long time or special relationship with him.  Minerva and Poppy have probably been there forever just like Dumbledore, can't you just see these three going to Hogwarts together?  Severus we know has a special relationship with the Headmaster, it's in their way of talking to each other.  It's one of those student/teacher relationships that evolves into a professional respect for each other and later a friendship, I myself have one of those and it's one of the most meaning friendships I have.

The relationship between Moody and Dumbledore has always seemed to me, to be a long lasting personal friendship instead of just a professional one, We don't see them together much, but when we do, there's something just under the surface that we don't yet know all about.

On another note, I like the name Marvolo, I can't pronounce it worth shit but I like it.  It's rare to find good, old fashioned names around and I like having them in this book.  It subtly reminds kids that not everyone was once named Tiffany or Brian.
Saitaina
http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
The Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the musty smell...
Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and Harry Potter Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 17:42:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:42:30 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?TMR_=96_Latin_-_Moody_=91n=92_Dumbledore?=
Message-ID: <9dmh26+sgva@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18679

Haggridd wrote:

> > Hi Carissa!  Technically, Tom's name is not a riddle, but an
> > anagram. It certainly is wordplay, though.  I wonder how they will
> > deal with it in the movie, because they changed the spelling, so 
> > that the anagram will not work.

Rita wrote:

> They appear to have changed the surname from Riddle to Ryddle. 
> Changing the I to a Y. Perhaps they intend to change the anagram 
> from "I am Lord Voldemort" to "My name is Lord Voldemort". That 
> would require extra leters M N E I S. Maybe they will give him 
> two middle names, Tom Marvolo Simen Ryddle. I think I must be 
> typing in my sleep.

How about Tom Marvolo Nemis (a sort of nickname for Nemesis?) Ryddle?

I thought this rumor came from a months-old shot of the trophy case, 
where the name Tom =Riddell= was visible.  I also figured someone, 
maybe JKR herself, would inform the propmaster/mistress that this wee 
little, easy-to-make spelling error was going to cause problems down 
the line.  (This is a mistake no American could make, because we 
don't know how to pronounce English names like Riddell and Liddell; 
we tend to put the accent on the second syllable.)  Was it Riddell or 
Ryddle?  Can anyone direct us to a website with this photo?

Lumen Dei, I love your notes on Expecto Patronum.  Will hie myself 
over to your website shortly.

The speculation on whom Dumbledore calls by first name when is very 
interesting, but to anyone who is thinking it's a skinny branch to 
hang a theory on, and I wouldn't blame you, I just want to say that 
we know Dumbledore and Moody are friends because GF says so in so 
many words.  Or to be absolutely, nitpickingly precise, one of the 
Weasleys says so. 

Amy Z





From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Sun May 13 18:06:28 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wordplay in HP - Places HP is mentioned
In-Reply-To: <9dmfja+vfu1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010513180628.51359.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18680

I think one of my favorites would have to be Fudge,
which is both the candy and to lie or gloss over
things (which I think is most appropriate to his
personality!).  I also like Remus Lupin, which is what
stupid parents name their child when they're *begging*
for him to get bitten by a werewolf. [g]



Andrea

Phoenix feather, maple, 7 1/2 inches

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 19:06:48 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 19:06:48 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <01da01c0da4a$53d3d300$27bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9dmm08+e746@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18681

Exactly one year after that wonderful and horrible day Ginny could 
hear the sounds of celebration in the distance, it's Potter day, a 
time for wizards all over the world to honor the memory of a hero. 
She looked down into the brilliant green eyes of her infant son 
cradled in her arms and kissed Harry Potter on the forehead. She saw 
no scar.








From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Sun May 13 19:43:42 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:43:42 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions
Message-ID: <c4.14380ac0.28303dee@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18682

In a message dated 5/3/2001 1:11:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
old_wych at yahoo.com writes:

<< According to the HP Lexicon it's Flitwick, but I think
 that's a deduction of some sort, unless JKR said it in
 an interview. I'd be interested to know where that
 comes from, since I can't remember it being mentioned
 in the books. >>

Something I read online suggested that it's Sinistra, the Astronomy teacher. 
This doesn't make since to me as he (she?) is rarely mentioned.

Thanks for your answers!

Toby



From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Sun May 13 20:00:40 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:00:40 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic in the Bible
Message-ID: <c5.10cbe343.283041e8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18683

In a message dated 5/3/2001 8:04:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
koinonia02 at yahoo.com writes:

<< The Bible condemns all forms of the occult-divination, magic/sorcery, 
 and spiritism-in numberous passages throughout both the Old and New 
 Testaments.  For instance, in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 God's view of 
 occultism is clearly expressed:  "let no one be found among you who 
 sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination 
 or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in withcraft, or casts spell, 
 or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.  Anyone who 
 does these things is detestable to the LORD. >>

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the list moderator, I must chime in 
here. The Bible is a set of moral, religious, and ethical guidelines for 
those who wish to follow a Judeo-Christian religion. Those of us who are not 
Christian are not obligated to follow those rules. It's awfully arrogant of 
Christians to assume that their God is the only God, and that their religion 
is the only valid religion. 

This topic always comes up in discussions about Harry Potter. My question is 
"why"? Do Christians feel they need to justify the pleasure they get from 
reading the books? Do they need to rationalize it to the point where they 
don't feel like they are "sinning" because they enjoy a book about magic? Why 
is it so hard just to enjoy a work of fantasy?

Toby



From margdean at erols.com  Sun May 13 19:36:21 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:36:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic in the Bible
References: <c5.10cbe343.283041e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AFEE235.55F2F9E4@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18684

dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/3/2001 8:04:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> koinonia02 at yahoo.com writes:
> 
> << The Bible condemns all forms of the occult-divination, magic/sorcery,
>  and spiritism-in numberous passages throughout both the Old and New
>  Testaments.  For instance, in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 God's view of
>  occultism is clearly expressed:  "let no one be found among you who
>  sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination
>  or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in withcraft, or casts spell,
>  or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.  Anyone who
>  does these things is detestable to the LORD. >>
> 
> At the risk of incurring the wrath of the list moderator, I must chime in
> here. The Bible is a set of moral, religious, and ethical guidelines for
> those who wish to follow a Judeo-Christian religion. Those of us who are not
> Christian are not obligated to follow those rules. 

Granted.  However . . .

> It's awfully arrogant of
> Christians to assume that their God is the only God, and that their religion
> is the only valid religion.

Um, it kind of goes with the territory?  Not the arrogance
necessarily, but the monotheism.  By definition, you can't =be= a
Christian =unless= you believe in one God, and one only.  (Or
Three-in-One, if you want to get theological about it.)  And
doesn't every religion assume its worldview to be true?  These
things tend to be mutually exclusive, again by definition. 
=Either= the world is a sphere floating in space =or= it's
"turtles all the way down."  Take your pick, but they can't both
be right.
 
> This topic always comes up in discussions about Harry Potter. My question is
> "why"? Do Christians feel they need to justify the pleasure they get from
> reading the books? Do they need to rationalize it to the point where they
> don't feel like they are "sinning" because they enjoy a book about magic? 

Not all of us.  ;)

> Why is it so hard just to enjoy a work of fantasy?

Some people's worldviews (Christian and non-Christian) are
entirely too literal, that's why.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Sun May 13 20:22:45 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:22:45 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix
Message-ID: <ce.148be9c9.28304715@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18685

In a message dated 5/4/2001 12:15:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
meckelburg at foni.net writes:

<< he kitchens would be a close choice, but so would Harry's 
 dormitory or Dumbledore's office( I'm sure,there's more magic in it 
 then we have seen)I was also thinking of the cosy little dungeon 
 Nick's party had been in!
 Some more thoughts? >>

I was kind of thinking about the Prefect's Bathroom (maybe a stretch, but who 
knows?), the Divination class room, or the small room just beyond the Great 
Hall where the Champions first met in GoF. There's also the Chamber of 
Secrets itself. Perhaps there are more secrets down there....   :-)

Toby
who's on pins and needles waiting for the next Harry book....



From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 20:23:47 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:23:47 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wordplay in HP - Places HP is mentioned
Message-ID: <LAW2-F37GNzscE8Npqh00006a6c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18686

Andrea wrote:
>
>I think one of my favorites would have to be Fudge,
>which is both the candy and to lie or gloss over
>things (which I think is most appropriate to his
>personality!).  I also like Remus Lupin, which is what
>stupid parents name their child when they're *begging*
>for him to get bitten by a werewolf. [g]

Interestingly, both, like their owners, have an innocent and a dark side - a 
lupin is also a garden flower
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 20:33:45 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:33:45 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Latin (was boggart)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F92p51dyZSdA6k00006a58@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18687

Luman Dei wrote:

>
>Since I don't want to fill anyone's box with something they might not deem 
>of interest, I will only give the first paragraphs of a reflection I wrote 
>for my HP website.
<snip wonderful analysis of Expecto patronum and HP theme>
Thanks for that!  So much more interesting than I thought expecto patronum 
was - I should have known, from "Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum..." 
from the Latin creed.
Morag (off to check out the website pronto)

_________________________________________________________________________
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From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Sun May 13 20:46:18 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:46:18 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
Message-ID: <92.148aeeab.28304c9a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18688

In a message dated 5/12/2001 1:49:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk writes:

<< --It certainly leads us to believe that James didn't exactly have a 
 good outlook on the future, eh? It just doesn't make sense that he 
 would give away his cherished (and valuable) possesions if he was 
 about to go into hiding and therefore be safe. He had no reason to 
 think that Voldemort would find him.  >>

It's also possible that Dumbledor had a copy of the Potters' wills, and went 
to their home that night to retrieve certain items, and to make sure Lilly 
and James were properly buried. 

Toby 



From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 13 21:23:02 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:23:02 -0000
Subject: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
In-Reply-To: <92.148aeeab.28304c9a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dmtvm+cp3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18689

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:

> It's also possible that Dumbledor had a copy of the Potters' wills,
> and went to their home that night to retrieve certain items,

or had Hagrid pick them up along with Harry.





From mlmnb at msn.com  Sun May 13 21:33:42 2001
From: mlmnb at msn.com (mlmnb)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:33:42 -0400
Subject: Harry's looks
Message-ID: <004301c0dbf4$62ed5cc0$8988163f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 18690

My first time making a comment, although I faithfully read all others daily.

Regarding Harry's family in the mirror--Lily has green eyes and auburn hair,
but other members of the family in the mirror had green eyes too.

When I read this passage, I just assumed that Harry had his mother's eyes
and the black hair coloring of James. I don't remember anywhere that Aunt
Petunia or Dudley are described as having green eyes.

For anyone who has polygenic features (a mix of both sides of the family)
who's to say that both sides of Harry's family didn't have a predominant
strain of green eyes?  Green eyes, like blue, are a recessive gene, brown is
normally the dominant eye color, unless the recessive gene is present in
both parents' genes.  Just a thought.   Maybe JKR didn't give this a lot of
thought, or maybe she did and we just have to wait for later books.

In the meantime, must start reading SS again!
Dane, Ravenclaw





From birdy739 at hotmail.com  Sun May 13 22:29:43 2001
From: birdy739 at hotmail.com (Kelly Shiflet)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:29:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Latin (was boggart)
Message-ID: <F245j7gC2DWpmy20h0800003e7d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18691

HI everyone! I'm mainly a 'lurker', but I thought I'd come out of hiding to 
say that while we are on Latin/Freanch meanings, that you should check out 
this site. It's really cool, and has what the first AND last names of HP 
characters mean, and their origin. Pretty interesting site
Just Go to:
1)www.harrypotterfans.com
2)then click on "Encyclopedia Potterica"
3)then click on "Origins of Words & Names"

Have Fun!

Kelly


>From: "Lumen Dei" <lumen_dei at freeler.nl>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] OT: Latin (was boggart)
>Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:19:23 +0200
>
>Since I don't want to fill anyone's box with something they might not deem 
>of interest, I will only give the first paragraphs of a reflection I wrote 
>for my HP website.  Yes, her Latin/French usage is wonderful.  Although it 
>can throw you a bit as when she combines the two language in "Morsmordre!"
>
>
>EXPECTO PATRONUM!
>
>By now everyone has discovered the meaning of the incantation, "Expecto 
>Patronum". Flawless Latin for "I expect a patron." A defender, a helper, a 
>protector. But is that correct? There is another step to take in uncovering 
>the meaning of the incantation. Any decent Latin dictionary will tell you 
>that the root of patronus is pater--father. The real cry Rowling places on 
>Harry's lips is : I expect a father. And while we might slip by with 
>translating "I expect a patron" into "Expecto patronum" (and I only say 
>'might'), you would never get away with translating "Expecto patronum" as 
>"I expect a patron." Expectare in Latin is far more intense. It is to long 
>for, to desire, to hope for, to lean out the windows as your eyes scour the 
>horizon. Which rather fits the scene--when encircled by dementors, one does 
>tend to feel rather strongly about the idea of assistance!
>
>Expecto patronus. "I yearn for a father" is really the heart of the second 
>book, The Chamber of Secrets, or so it seems to me. There is a search going 
>on in the book Indeed in all three books. Harry is rightly named "the 
>seeker." The search for one's father, and most important, what happens when 
>he isn't there.....
>
>www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/patronus.html
>
>Lumen Dei
>Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop  -- "Have Wand, Will Wave"
>www.geocities.com/lumen_dei
>
>
>   Graig told us:
>
>   > Well, patronus (long mark on the a and the o) is straightforward
>   > Latin, second declension, meaning "protector, defender, patron".
>
>   I think this site might interest very many of us, since Latin is a
>   part of HP books:
>
>   www.yle.fi/fbc/latini
>
>   It's Finnish radio that sends Nuntii Latini-program via satellite all
>   over the world. Five minutes of latest news in latin once a week. I
>   think they started sending programs in the Net too lately. They also
>   answer questions about latin and from archives you can read news few
>   months back.
>
>   I have studied latin only a year, but it is delightful to understand
>   what charms mean and where the names come from. I have also enjoyed
>   very much of your discussion about names and their origins. I just
>   thought if anybody is interested about collecting HP names in finnish
>   I could look them up.
>
>   Jenny
>   zenonah at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>   _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>   All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter 
>YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages 
>they want to read and those they don't.
>
>   Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point 
>your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to 
>join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
>hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>   (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
>hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
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>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun May 13 22:37:47 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:37:47 -0000
Subject: Magic in the Bible
In-Reply-To: <c5.10cbe343.283041e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dn2br+abri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18692

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/3/2001 8:04:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> koinonia02 at y... writes:
> 
> << The Bible condemns all forms of the occult-divination, 
magic/sorcery, 
>  and spiritism-in numberous passages throughout both the Old and 
New 
>  Testaments.  For instance, in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 God's view of 
>  occultism is clearly expressed:  "let no one be found among you 
who 
>  sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices 
divination 
>  or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in withcraft, or casts 
spell, 
>  or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.  Anyone 
who 
>  does these things is detestable to the LORD. >>
> 

Please see posting #17962,  which is an article on magic in the Bible 
from Baker's Evangelical Encyclopedia. It shows that the Biblical 
portrayal of magic is predominantly, but not entirely negative, and 
that there is some "wiggle room" in whether we define the miracles of 
the saints and prophets as "magic".

BTW, consider the following passage from Genesis 3: 

    1: Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature 
that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God say, `You 
shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?" 
2: And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the 
trees of the garden; 
3: but God said, `You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is 
in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you 
die.'" 
4: But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. 
5: For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, 
and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 


The meaning is clear: Eve was a Parselmouth!

   - CMC




From editor at texas.net  Mon May 14 01:04:16 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:04:16 -0500
Subject: Magical components (was Invisibiility Cloak - Moody - Kitty - Marvolo)
References: <LAW2-F115xHgnfOHrdZ00006534@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AFF2F10.4B1D8061@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18693

Morag Traynor wrote:

> Rita wrote and quoted:
>
> >Reading FB, I was (and am) irritated by how magical artifacts get
> their
> >powers from being made of magical beasts rather than from the magic
> of
> >the witch or wizard who made them.
>
> I rather liked that aspect as having a fair amount of explanatory
> power - it allows that some things, as invisibility cloaks above, can
> be rarer than others, some can be used, or mis-used by Muggles etc.
> It also shows that wizards are, like us, dependent on a natural world.

*ahem* At the risk of being a tad disgusting, there's nothing to suggest
that things made *out* of wizards would not be just as powerful as
things made out of magical animals. But that's not done, at least by
anyone we know. So the parallel may indeed be there, unseen. Things
probably could indeed be made, which derive their magic from having a
wizard component. Ugh.

Nor, I think, have we seen an object that is magic from a beast's
*performing* magic, which would be the parallel to an object deriving
its magic from the wizard creating it. It's the use of innately magical
components.

In any case, it takes a wizard to harness the innate magical component
in the desired application or form--that's at least half of the
equation, and I imagine the better the wizard-creator is, the more
effective the item.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon May 14 02:20:10 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 02:20:10 -0000
Subject: Magical components (was Invisibiility Cloak - Moody - Kitty - Marvolo)
In-Reply-To: <3AFF2F10.4B1D8061@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9dnfcq+v3c4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18694

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> 
> *ahem* At the risk of being a tad disgusting, there's nothing to suggest
> that things made *out* of wizards would not be just as powerful as
> things made out of magical animals. But that's not done, at least by
> anyone we know. So the parallel may indeed be there, unseen. Things
> probably could indeed be made, which derive their magic from having a
> wizard component. Ugh.

	Voldie's resurrection potion requires not just human blood but 
wizard blood "another witch or wizard --any wizard", "any wizard who 
had hated me"  GoF ch's 1 and 33.   
	
Pippin





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May 14 05:07:08 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:07:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Douglas Adams is dead
In-Reply-To: <OE131m9t0CI76rOJhKP00003db1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010513154914.00cdda90@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18695

At 03:14 PM 5/12/01 -0400, Roy Mallett wrote:
>I remember when they showed those on the PBS Channel 2 in Boston. They 
>also did a radio series of the first two books on the PBS radio station.

Not to be a pedantic such-and-such, but actually the two radio series came 
first, and then the
first two books were based on material from them.



                         -- Dave




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 05:12:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 05:12:01 -0000
Subject: Magical components
In-Reply-To: <9dnfcq+v3c4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dnpf1+2qg1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18696

Amanda wrote:

> > *ahem* At the risk of being a tad disgusting, there's nothing to 
suggest
> > that things made *out* of wizards would not be just as powerful as
> > things made out of magical animals. But that's not done, at least 
by
> > anyone we know. So the parallel may indeed be there, unseen. 
Things
> > probably could indeed be made, which derive their magic from 
having a
> > wizard component. Ugh.

Pippin wrote:

> 	Voldie's resurrection potion requires not just human blood but 
> wizard blood "another witch or wizard --any wizard", "any wizard who 
> had hated me"  GoF ch's 1 and 33.   

Yeah, I think you're onto something, Amanda.  I wouldn't be surprised 
if a lot of dark magic required human parts.

Pass me the dried spleen, would you?  I gotta finish this Crippling 
Concoction tonight or Snape'll have my head.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 . . . summoning the memory of the day I had 
 been voted President of the local Gobstones 
 Club, I performed the Patronus Charm.  
     -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
----------------------------------------------




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Mon May 14 10:15:25 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:15:25 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP
In-Reply-To: <9djvbd+46bp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dob7t+92tr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18697

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Does anybody else
> have a favorite pun?
> 
> Haggridd

The one I like (and it hasn't quite crept on to the Strictly British 
bit of the Lexicon yet) is "Tripe, Sybil?"  In Brit English, tripe 
means nonsense as well as the wonderful gliding food.  So McGonagall 
is commenting on Trelawney's previous remark, as well a offering her 
food.

David




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon May 14 10:25:43 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:25:43 -0000
Subject: Question: Re items conjured from wands.
Message-ID: <9dobr7+2hae@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18698

I have wondered for a while now how the more senior wizards are able 
to conjure things from their wands.  Eg, Professor McGonagall 
producing food and drink at the beginning of CoS, Dumbledore 
conjuring up sleeping bags in PoA, Lupin and Snape producing ropes 
which tie up their opponents, and to a lesser extent, the judges in 
the tournament drawing figures.

What kind of magic is this?  It seems to be similar to Harry 
conjuring a patronus, although this is less tangible and doesn't last 
for long, and perhaps also has similarities with the Dark Mark.  
Therefore, I was thinking that they when tangible items are conjured, 
they are done so by means of a kind of summoning charm, which 
requires strength of mind, as one is conjuring a type of thing one 
needs, rather than a specific, existing item.  Does this make sense?
It seems to me that the wand is being used as an extension of self - 
something is needed, and therefore they only have to think about it 
for the wand to make it a reality.

My other question is, how is this taught, and what kind of magic does 
it fall under?  It isn't specifically a charm, as it isn't bewitching 
a specific item.  When is it taught at Hogwarts?  Or is it the same 
thing as Hermione being able to light a fire?

Sorry about the garbled nature of this post.  I don't think I have 
quite got across exactly what I wanted to.  I would apreciate  any 
thoughts on the matter.

Catherine




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Mon May 14 10:40:58 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:40:58 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's use of names (was: Old buds?, Moody-Crouch)
In-Reply-To: <9dk7bh+jt7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9docnq+i47c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18699

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > He (Dumbledore) also treats 
> Moody with slightly more familiarity than we are used to - I don't 
> think he often calls other teachers by their first names - at least 
> not in the presence of students, and I recall at least one instance 
> when he calls him Alastair instead of Professor Moody, which in my 
> mind shows that they have at least some history/friendship prior to 
> Hogwarts.  

One of the ways that JKR shows the different characters of the 
different teachers is in their use of first names.  So, for example, 
McGonagall uses 'Mr Potter', 'Miss Grainger', etc most of the time.  
Snape often just says 'Potter' or 'Longbottom'.  Notice too Dobby's 
rather inexpert grasp of names.

Dumbledore almost without exception uses first names for everyone 
(though there are exceptions).  It is he who lets us first know what 
these names are in many cases.  So I think calling Moody 'Alastor' is 
what I'd expect, even after a fairly slight acqaintance.  He does, 
however, refer to other teachers as 'Professor...' when talking to 
Harry, even correcting him in PS/SS when Harry refers to 'Snape' 
without title.

It's worth noting that Lupin always calls students by their first 
names, most memorably when arguing with Snape about Neville.

So Dumbledore reproves Harry, implying he should respect Snape, by 
use of full title and surname, while Lupin reproves Snape, implying 
he should respect Neville, by use of first name.  Cool, as Dean would 
say.

There is also a study to be done on use of He-who-must-not-be-named 
vs You-know-who vs Dark Lord (unless I've missed it).

David

BTW, it's Alastor




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 10:49:11 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:49:11 -0000
Subject: New Contest:  Write your own last sentence.
In-Reply-To: <9df3ug+v9dm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dod77+gq7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18700

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> This idea belongs to T.G. Malfoy (eggonmyhead at h...), who was 
> kind enough to allow me to post it here.  As we all know, the last 
> word of the seventh book is supposed to be "scar."  The contest is to 
> write that last sentence, and state the rationale that would make it 
> the one to end the HP saga.  Winner(s) would be chosen by acclamation.
> Any takers?
> 
> Haggridd


Well, although you have closed the contest, sort of, I'm going to squeeze this one in, 
anyway:

"Harry was still gazing in disbelief at Voldemort's body lying before him, when he realized 
that the high, cold laugh he was hearing was not an echo but a voice inside his own head, 
and slowly but surely he felt himself taken, unable to resist, by the desire, Voldemort's 
desire, to kill, slaughter, maim and scar."

The rational is simple - Voldemort, not being truly human, cannot be truly killed. His 
spirit (or whatever it is that is left of him) can overtake other bodies. When Harry, as he 
thought, managed to kill him, Voldemort's spirit takes him over.

Yuck. I got the creeps just writing it. 


Naama




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Mon May 14 11:12:21 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:12:21 -0000
Subject: Magical components
In-Reply-To: <9dnpf1+2qg1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9doeil+t5ls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18701

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> 
> > > *ahem* At the risk of being a tad disgusting, there's nothing 
to 
> suggest
> > > that things made *out* of wizards would not be just as powerful 
as
> > > things made out of magical animals. But that's not done, at 
least 
> by
> > > anyone we know. So the parallel may indeed be there, unseen. 
> Things
> > > probably could indeed be made, which derive their magic from 
> having a
> > > wizard component. Ugh.
> 
> Pippin wrote:
> 
> > 	Voldie's resurrection potion requires not just human blood 
but 
> > wizard blood "another witch or wizard --any wizard", "any wizard 
who 
> > had hated me"  GoF ch's 1 and 33.   
> 
> Yeah, I think you're onto something, Amanda.  I wouldn't be 
surprised 
> if a lot of dark magic required human parts.
> 
> Pass me the dried spleen, would you?  I gotta finish this Crippling 
> Concoction tonight or Snape'll have my head.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
>  . . . summoning the memory of the day I had 
>  been voted President of the local Gobstones 
>  Club, I performed the Patronus Charm.  
>      -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
> ----------------------------------------------

... and weren't there those fingernails in Knockturn Alley? ...and 
how *does* Bertie Bott get the earwax flavour? Who was the Hand of 
Glory's original owner? Fleur 'as a bit of her grandmuzzer about her 
person...

so it goes

David




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Mon May 14 11:47:12 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 07:47:12 -0400
Subject: TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid History
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0931@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18702

> Message: 14
>    Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:04:12 +1000
>    From: "Elizabeth C" <nizbet_noni at hotmail.com>
> Subject: who taught Voldemort?
> 
> I'm sitting here with a friend, and she just brought up a 
> point I hadn't 
> thought about before: Who taught Voldemort the Dark Arts?? I 
> mean, I think 
> he was self-taught a lot of the later stuff, but he needed 
> someone to ground 
> him in the basics. And obviously it couldn't have been his parents.
> Any thoughts??

Many. Beginning with the idea that over the years, subjects have been taught
very differently. Under Dippet's leadership, Defense Against the Dark Arts
may have involved more actual Dark Arts. Or possibly there have been other
classes which provided more practical training in these areas, which
Dumbledore has since discontinued. However, I am of the opinion that for the
most part, Tom Riddle was fascinated by dark arts and read all he could
about them from the first day of his first year.

After he left (and killed his father's family), of course, it's mentioned
that he traveled through Europe a great deal, and that when he returned he
was barely recognizable. I take the 50 years to be an "approximate" figure.
I believe the Chamber of Secrets was opened slightly more than 50 years
before HP finds it; that is, in 1941 or '42 (possibly even earlier),
allowing Tom to finish up school and find Grindelwald before Dumbledore
defeated him in 1945. After Grindy's demise, presumably, Tom went on a
quest.... Okay, a dark quest, but still a quest. 


Malfoy, Fudge, Weasleys, Hagrid:

Jen wrote:
> >  I was wondering can anyone place Fudge in the Weasley/Malfoy 
> > timeline. I get the feeling that he wasn't in the same year as 
> Arthur 
> > and Lucius (assuming that they were in the same year) as he doesn't 
> > seem to realise they dislike one another.
> >  For some reason I have the gut feeling that Fudge is younger than 
> > the other two but have no facts to back me up.
> >  Does anyone have any ideas?
> > 
> >  Jen

Others have talked at length about the relative ages of Lucius Malfoy and
Arthur and Molly Weasley. Somewhere I have a long and involved message about
why, though there is no direct evidence, there is material supporting the
conclusion that they are at least 10 years, probably more, older than the
Marauder generation. If y'all are really interested, perhaps I'll dig up my
LM character summary (my own, not published here).

Some of the logic applied to LM and A&MW also applies to Fudge. One point
about LM and AW is the amount of respect (in different circles) each
commands, and I don't think it's just because of money or integrity,
respectively, and family names in both cases. I think it also has to do with
age and experience.

In a society with a high average longevity, it is unlikely that very young
wizards and witches will be given a large amount of credence. Consider how
unlikely it is for Muggle adults who are under 25 to be afforded high levels
of respect or experience and/or assumed to be responsible and mature. This
is not a value judgment; I'm merely pointing out that in our society, where
average life span is about half that of wizards, it's the frequent case that
many younger people are discounted on the basis of their age up until their
mid-20's or even, depending on profession, early 30's. How much older must
wizards and witches be to be considered mature and experienced? 

It seems unlikely to me that any wizard could rise to the rank of MoM if he
were younger than a LM or an AW, particularly someone as oblivious and
blinded as Fudge. Since I agree that he is not familiar with their rivalry
(unless of course he was putting on a show for the foreign guests, which is
possible), then I would wager that he is older. Admittedly, he hadn't
advanced far--though we don't know exactly how high-ranking a Junior
Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes is--but when Sirius tells
us of his rise to MoM in GoF, it's clear that he had risen enough in the
next couple years to be considered a rival (if a distant second) to Barty
Crouch. 

On the other hand, he may well have been considered, despite his youth,
because other Ministry and related lobbyists felt they could manipulate him
easily..... No, I'll stick with the older, but still gullible, theory. They
can hoodwink him whether or not he's a spring chicken. Heck, they _do_ still
hoodwink him.


Bugg mentioned this about Hagrid and Arthur & Molly Weasley: 
> Clarifications 
> Hagrid was 13 when the chamber was first opened. 
> He would be in his sixties now. 
> Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before Hagrid became 
> the groundskeeper. I believe she mentioned the old 
> groundskeeper in GoF.  
> 

Actually, a small nit to pick here: Molly mentioned the caretaker, Apollyon
Pringle. I believe this gentleman occupies the same position as Argus Filch,
not Hagrid. Hagrid was already there, I think. Otherwise, Molly would have
had Ginny when she was between 50 and 60 years old! Even with increased
longevity, I doubt that child bearing years extend that far (I hope not!).
Though I suppose it's technically possible, if 70 is considered the
equivalent of middle-aged (i.e. 40's). Still, the way Hagrid addresses them
in CoS suggests they knew him as a groundskeeper when they were in school.

> Questions 
> Did Hagrid go to Azkaban when expelled from Hogwarts? 

At first, I thought it was implied that he did. There's a strong subtext in
the scene in Chamber of Secrets to suggest that he's been there before.
However, when he speaks about Azkaban in PoA, neither he nor Rowling make
any reference to a previous stint. He mentions fixating on all the horrible
things, such as his expulsion, his father's death, etc., but not having been
there before. It seems odd he wouldn't mention a previous sentence among
those unhappy memories.

> How long was Hagrid in Azkaban? 

If the stay in CoS was the only one, than it was very brief (month? weeks?).
Hmm. After considering the options, I believe Dumbledore (whom I think had
his doubts about Hagrid really being the culprit) would have petitioned
strenuously to keep a 13 year old out of prison.


> How long between getting expelled and working at Hogwarts? 

This is an interesting question. It all depends on how much influence
Dumbledore could exert with Dippet. According to Hagrid, though, one gets
the impression that Dumbledore didn't buy Tom's accusation and made sure the
consequences of Hagrid's expulsion were minimal. Perhaps he apprenticed to
the gamekeeper who was at the school until that person retired or died, and
then took over the job? I have a feeling from the way Hagrid talks, though,
that he's never been far from Hogwarts since he began going to school there.

> Was Dumbledore Headmaster for Arthur and Molly? 

Almost impossible. Dumbledore became headmaster the year the Marauders and
Snape began at Hogwarts. Lupin alludes to the fact that it was only because
Dumbledore had been promoted that he was allowed to attend the school. The
real question is, was Dippet their Headmaster, or was there another
headmaster between him and Albus?

We simply don't have enough information in canon to answer that one. There
is, however, an implication that Lucius was directly acquainted with more
than one Headmaster, including Dumbledore, considering what Draco says in
CoS about his father thinking Dumbledore the worst Headmaster the school's
ever had. It's possible that Lucius forms this opinion without any
experience other than Dumbledore, and given historical information to which
he had access as a school governor, but unlikely. I believe Lucius either
completed his schooling well before Dumbledore became headmaster (though he
was still Transfiguration teacher), or was present for a year or two of the
transition (depending on how close in ages LM is with the Marauders). I
think it makes a better story if he went to school under a completely
different regime, with a different style and a different emphasis on
teaching methods (as above, with Dippet/Riddle relations), and his
objections to Dumbledore stem from his interaction with him as a colleague,
not an authority figure.

By extension, if one accepts the theory (expounded by others here) that LM
and AW share an old, school-boy-like rivalry, then AW and MW would have also
gone to school under the same Headmaster (or Headmasters) as LM.

Gosh, I hope that all makes sense.


Gwendolyn Grace



From vderark at bccs.org  Mon May 14 13:18:27 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:18:27 -0000
Subject: historical notes : Hagrid, Azkaban, Dumbledore, Ogg
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0931@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9dolv3+sj5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18703


> > Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before Hagrid became 
> > the groundskeeper. I believe she mentioned the old 
> > groundskeeper in GoF.  
> > 
> 
> Actually, a small nit to pick here: Molly mentioned the caretaker, 
Apollyon
> Pringle. I believe this gentleman occupies the same position as 
>Argus Filch,

Molly mentions Pringle as Caretaker and also mentions Ogg as 
groudskeeper. So Hagrid wasn't the groudskeeper when Molly was at 
Hogwarts, although he may have been an assistant or something like 
that. He certainly didn't take over as groundskeeper at age 13 with 
no training. (Of course, he was allowed to take over as Care of 
Magical Creatures teacher at age 60-something with no training...but 
I digress...)


> 
> > Questions 
> > Did Hagrid go to Azkaban when expelled from Hogwarts? 
> 
> At first, I thought it was implied that he did. There's a strong 
subtext in
> the scene in Chamber of Secrets to suggest that he's been there 
before.


Even given the Wizarding World's atrocious system of justice and the 
prejudice against giants built into Wizarding society, I can't 
imagine that Hagrid was sent to Azkaban at 13 years old. I think he 
was actually expelled on strong suspicions and pressure from the 
Ministry to arrest somebody and get it over with. I bet he never had 
a trial, he just went quietly, so to speak, and everyone let out a 
collective sigh and forgot all about it.


> 
> > How long was Hagrid in Azkaban? 
> 
> If the stay in CoS was the only one, than it was very brief (month? 
weeks?).

>From May 8 until May 31. About three weeks. This is worked out from 
all the clues in CS and may be considered canon.


> > Was Dumbledore Headmaster for Arthur and Molly? 
> 
> Almost impossible. Dumbledore became headmaster the year the 
Marauders and
> Snape began at Hogwarts. Lupin alludes to the fact that it was only 
because
> Dumbledore had been promoted that he was allowed to attend the 
school

Right. Dumbledore became headmaster of Hogwarts c. 1970, long after 
Molly and Arthur's years there. They would have known him as a 
teacher, presumably. Dumbledore was offered the Minister of Magic job 
but turned it down, by the way. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a day-by-day calendar of PS/SS and CS (PA & GF coming soon)
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon May 14 13:34:29 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:34:29 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's use of names (was: Old buds?, Moody-Crouch)
In-Reply-To: <9docnq+i47c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9domt5+4f63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18704

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> 
> 
> There is also a study to be done on use of He-who-must-not-be-named 
> vs You-know-who vs Dark Lord (unless I've missed it).
> 

One clue about Moody/Crouch's identity that I didn't pick up till I 
re-read GoF, is that he never utters the name Voldemort.  I could see 
him not using it in class so as not to unduly alarm students (Lupin 
didn't either), but he never uses it in conversation with Harry.  
The "real" Moody doesn't utter the name in the pensieve chapter, but 
does not use any of the euphemisms, either. 

  - CMC




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 14:22:58 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:22:58 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
Message-ID: <LAW2-F83usluCBcKfEx00007799@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18705

Toby wrote:


>insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk writes:
>
><< --It certainly leads us to believe that James didn't exactly have a
>  good outlook on the future, eh? It just doesn't make sense that he
>  would give away his cherished (and valuable) possesions if he was
>  about to go into hiding and therefore be safe. He had no reason to
>  think that Voldemort would find him.  >>
>
>It's also possible that Dumbledor had a copy of the Potters' wills, and 
>went
>to their home that night to retrieve certain items, and to make sure Lilly
>and James were properly buried.

Wouldn't he have picked up Harry as well, then?

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon May 14 14:54:54 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:54:54 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's use of names 
In-Reply-To: <9domt5+4f63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dorju+4m2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18706

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > There is also a study to be done on use of 
He-who-must-not-be-named 
> > vs You-know-who vs Dark Lord (unless I've missed it).
> > 
> 
> One clue about Moody/Crouch's identity that I didn't pick up till I 
> re-read GoF, is that he never utters the name Voldemort. 


Very well observed, CM!

I thought those who are against Voldemort say "You know who", unless 
they?re especially brave (or ignorant, as Harry in book 1). I think 
we?ve heard only Dumbledore, Harry and Sirius calling him by his name 
so far. Lupin too, maybe, but I can?t check that right now. I find it 
strange that Prof. McGonagall doesn?t.

Voldemort?s supporters call him "he who must not be named" (Pettigrew 
definately does), again except for the braver ones. I think they refer 
to him as the Dark Lord (I think Barty jr and Malfoy do). 

But that doesn?t quite go with the explanation LV (no, I won?t reveal 
to you right now which side I?m on!) gives for his name in CoS. He 
says he took on the name Lord Voldemort as a secret name his closest 
friends used to call him at Hogwarts (I?d be greatful if someone 
could check that!). So why doesn?t anyone now use it?

What do you think Dumbledore would call him if they came face to face?

In his habit of using literally everybody?s first name (which I find 
very nice, if slightly American), would he make it "Tom" again?




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 15:10:03 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:10:03 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart)
In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F92p51dyZSdA6k00006a58@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dosgb+jrrm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18707

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> <snip wonderful analysis of Expecto patronum and HP theme>
> Thanks for that!  So much more interesting than I thought expecto
> patronum  was - I should have known, from "Et expecto
> resurrectionem mortuorum..." from the Latin creed.

Personally, I think it's a bit overboard as analyses go.

"Exspectare" (the "s" was there classically) is not just "expect",
it's true--in fact, its breadth covers "to await", "to expect
something that is to come or to take place", "to be waiting for",
"to look for with hope, fear, desire, expectation", "to hope for,
long for, expect, desire"; "to fear, dread, anticipate, apprehend".
[Lewis & Short]

But it's probably too poetic to transform "expecto patronum" into
"I yearn for a father", unless we wish to believe that all "patronus"
spells cast are psychologically bound to such a yearning or lack.
I think that "protector", "defender", or "advocate" are all adequate
translations, that don't add more baggage than intended.

....Craig




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 15:14:44 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:14:44 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP
In-Reply-To: <9dob7t+92tr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dosp4+5uib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18708

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> The one I like (and it hasn't quite crept on to the Strictly
> British bit of the Lexicon yet) is "Tripe, Sybil?"  In Brit
> English, tripe means nonsense as well as the wonderful gliding
> food.  So McGonagall is commenting on Trelawney's previous remark,
> as well a offering her food.

Tripe has the dual meaning in American English too, which is why
it shouldn't be in the "Strictly British" part.

"tripe (trIp) n. 

1. The light-colored, rubbery lining of the stomach of cattle or 
other ruminants, used as food. 
2. Informal. Something of no value; rubbish."

American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

....Craig




From lea.macleod at gmx.net  Mon May 14 15:24:49 2001
From: lea.macleod at gmx.net (lea.macleod at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:24:49 -0000
Subject: historical notes : Hagrid, Azkaban, Dumbledore, Ogg
In-Reply-To: <9dolv3+sj5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dotc1+hphi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18709

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> 
> > > Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before Hagrid became 
> > > the groundskeeper. I believe she mentioned the old 
> > > groundskeeper in GoF.  
> > > 
> > 
> > Actually, a small nit to pick here: Molly mentioned the caretaker, 
> Apollyon
> > Pringle. I believe this gentleman occupies the same position as 
> >Argus Filch,
> 
> Molly mentions Pringle as Caretaker and also mentions Ogg as 
> groudskeeper. So Hagrid wasn't the groudskeeper when Molly was at 
> Hogwarts, although he may have been an assistant or something like 
> that. He certainly didn't take over as groundskeeper at age 13 with 
> no training.

Ah, a trained Hit-Wizard from the Nitpickers? Canon Enforcement Squad 
has been here already...

Is it just me or didn?t Hagrid maybe go off to live with the giants 
for a while after he left Hogwarts?

I have no idea whether his father was still alive when he left (I 
remember him saying something like "good for him he didn?t see me 
kicked out of Hogwarts", but I may be wrong), but if he wasn?t, where 
did he go?

Dumbledore sending him to the giants at the end of GoF suggests that 
Hagrid knows where to find them and how to handle them. 

It would also explain his strange living habits, table manners etc. I 
also think JKR let us know suspiciously little about giants in 
FBAWTFT. 

But Hagrid was never really happy among the giants, so he realised he 
had to go back to the wizarding world some time, and was glad that 
Dumbledore offered him the gamekeeper?s job, since he wouldn?t have 
found anything else.




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Mon May 14 15:39:53 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:39:53 -0000
Subject: International Conference Discusses HP, Tolkein
Message-ID: <9dou89+1054d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18710

I just found a good article about the recent International Congress 
on Medieval Studies held at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, 
MI.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/12/arts/12MIDD.html (site registration 
required)

Here's a quote from the story:

"Tolkien refashioned the old medieval epics into what we now call 
fantasy literature," ... "He's the bridge figure who updated the 
genre. Harry Potter is infused with the Middle Earth ethos, which is 
about the ordinary or smaller man who goes on to win great victories."
(Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company)

Rowling's Harry Potter has played, for the most part, the "smaller 
man" role thus far in the canon. She *does* stretch the model by 
relying on shortcuts such as "mother's protection" and "Priori 
Incantantem" which allow Harry to triumph in virtually impossible 
situations; and of course there's the "phoenix ex machina" in book 2. 
Harry prevailed because he was a couragous and virtuous person, which 
is a feature of many ancient stories -- e.g., Arthur pulling the 
sword from the stone.

IMHO, something is lost when Harry is turned into a superhero, as in 
some fanfic. Kudos to JKR for going against the flow of Saturday 
Morning Television and giving us stories out of such a venerable 
tradition.

-Jim Flanagan




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 16:07:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:07:06 -0000
Subject: Use of names
In-Reply-To: <9dorju+4m2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dovri+fev1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18711

David wrote:

> One of the ways that JKR shows the different characters of the 
> different teachers is in their use of first names.  So, for example, 
> McGonagall uses 'Mr Potter', 'Miss Grainger', etc most of the time. 
 
> Snape often just says 'Potter' or 'Longbottom'.  Notice too Dobby's 
> rather inexpert grasp of names.

> 
> Dumbledore almost without exception uses first names for everyone 
> (though there are exceptions).  It is he who lets us first know what 
> these names are in many cases.  So I think calling Moody 'Alastor' 
is 
> what I'd expect, even after a fairly slight acqaintance.  He does, 
> however, refer to other teachers as 'Professor...' when talking to 
> Harry, even correcting him in PS/SS when Harry refers to 'Snape' 
> without title.
> 
<snip>

> There is also a study to be done on use of He-who-must-not-be-named 
> vs You-know-who vs Dark Lord (unless I've missed it).

A few more observations on names:

-Dumbledore calls students by their first names one-on-one (cf any 
conversation with Harry), but when speaking to them in front of 
others, may use their first names or call them "Mr. Potter and Miss 
Granger" (cf PA ch 21).  In large gatherings he almost always uses the 
latter (cf "I am =not= joking, Mr. Weasley," at opening feast in GF). 
 Dumbledore, in whatever situation, seems to be the model of 
courtesy (I get this from lots of Dumbledorean adverbs: "politely," 
"courteously,") so this familiarity does not seem to me to be 
rudeness.

-McGonagall actually refers to most male students by their last names; 
I don't believe she ever calls Harry Harry, even when she's feeling 
quite tender towards him (e.g. when she takes him out to the tent for 
the first task [GF, "The First Task"], or tries to bring him to the 
hospital wing after he's narrowly rescued from Crouch Jr. [GF, 
"Veritaserum"]).  Like Binns and some other professors, even Snape, 
she is more likely to refer to girls as "Miss" whomever.

-Snape usually calls Dumbledore "Headmaster," unlike the rest of the 
adults, who call him variously Albus, Dumbledore, and Professor 
Dumbledore.  This seems formal in a very respectful way to me.

-Lupin calls Snape by his first name but Snape calls him by his last 
name.  I'm not sure what to conclude from this.  Is one of them being 
rude, and if so, which?  (Lupin for being more familiar than Snape is 
comfortable with, or Snape for rebuffing a friendly gesture?)  Or 
maybe it means nothing; each is simply referring to the other the way 
he refers to everyone of similar rank. 
   It's a key plot issue, though, because we don't learn Lupin's first 
name until Sirius uses it near the end of PA (ch 18).  We already know 
at that point that he's a werewolf.  I wondered whether JKR was 
withholding his first name because she thought it would clue us in too 
quickly to his secret.  

-There was a thread a few months back on mentions of "the Dark Lord," 
and it is almost always a follower who calls him that.  When Moody is 
about to drop his pretence ("Veritaserum"), he calls him "the Dark 
Lord" repeatedly; it is a last-minute clue to readers that he didn't 
take Harry back to his office to keep him safe.  I like CMC's point 
about his never calling him Voldemort.  We know from Pettigrew's wince 
when Sirius says The Name (PA 19) that being a follower emphatically 
does not make one more comfortable with calling him by name.

-I'm interested in why those who call Voldemort by his name do so.  
Sirius and Remus do--Harry comments internally on the latter (PA 
8)--but we get no explanation of why they are the only people besides 
Dumbledore and Harry who don't do the You Know Who thing.  The 
implication is that they are less fearful and/or understand that 
creating a layer of mystery around the name just increases fear, but I 
wonder whether it indicates that they're a part of a circle close to 
Dumbledore, have gotten the same talk he gave Harry, or what.  

Lea wrote:

> What do you think Dumbledore would call him if they came face to 
face?

> In his habit of using literally everybody?s first name (which I find 
> very nice, if slightly American), would he make it "Tom" again?

I think he might call him Tom Riddle, in order to say to V "I remember 
where you came from and I'm not impressed or frightened by you."  
Voldemort, especially Lord Voldemort, sounds so impressive and 
intimidating; Tom Riddle is a combination of oh-so-ordinary-British 
and comical.

-Vernon and Petunia never call Harry by his name (it's just "boy" or 
"you") unless they're trying to kiss up to him (a), or, on one 
occasion, when Vernon's just automatically repeating what Dudley has 
said (b):

 (a) He took a deep breath and then forced his face into a smile, 
which looked quite painful.
     "Er - yes, Harry - about this cupboard.  Your aunt and I have 
been thinking . . . you're really getting a bit big for it . . . we 
think it might be nice if you moved into Dudley's second bedroom."  
(PS/SS 3)

 (b) "Get the post, Dudley," said Uncle Vernon from behind his paper. 
     "Make Harry get it."
     "Get the post, Harry." (PS/SS 3) 

I'm pretty sure those are the only times a Dursley calls Harry by 
name.  I might have forgotten a couple.  But it definitely fits in 
with their way of trying to make Harry feel as if he is beneath their 
notice.

-I find it a little odd when Parvati refers to Hermione as "Hermione 
Granger" (it's right after Harry asks her to the ball).  There is 
probably only one Hermione in the school, and she's Parvati's roommate 
and constant classmate--this gives an odd sense that they are quite 
distant.

-This last observation is not about what characters call each other, 
but what JKR calls them:  she uses Lee's, Dean's, and Seamus's full 
names very frequently (e.g. the first mention of them in a scene), 
which gets to me after awhile.  Does she think we'll forget who they 
are?

David, what did you mean by Dobby's inexpert grasp of names?

Amy Z
who, like your typical USAmerican, prefers for everyone to call her by 
her first name (as long as they permit her to do the same--don't you 
hate when doctors call you Joe but expect you to call them Dr. Jones? 
 even if they're years younger than you?) but admits to a fondness for 
the NY Times' old-fashioned practice of affixing a title to every name

--------------------------------------------------
 The [Chudley Cannons'] motto was changed in 1972
 from 'We shall conquer' to 'Let's all just keep
 our fingers crossed and hope for the best'.
                      -Quidditch Through the Ages
--------------------------------------------------




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon May 14 16:16:18 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:16:18 -0000
Subject: historical notes : Hagrid, Azkaban, Dumbledore, Ogg
In-Reply-To: <9dotc1+hphi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp0ci+9g68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18712

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> > 
> > > > Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before Hagrid became 
> > > > the groundskeeper. I believe she mentioned the old 
> > > > groundskeeper in GoF.  
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Actually, a small nit to pick here: Molly mentioned the 
caretaker, 
> > Apollyon
> > > Pringle. I believe this gentleman occupies the same position as 
> > >Argus Filch,
> > 
> > Molly mentions Pringle as Caretaker and also mentions Ogg as 
> > groudskeeper. So Hagrid wasn't the groudskeeper when Molly was at 
> > Hogwarts, although he may have been an assistant or something 
like 
> > that. He certainly didn't take over as groundskeeper at age 13 
with 
> > no training.
> 
> Ah, a trained Hit-Wizard from the Nitpickers? Canon Enforcement 
Squad 
> has been here already...
> 
> Is it just me or didn?t Hagrid maybe go off to live with the giants 
> for a while after he left Hogwarts?
>
I can't think of anything in canon to support this.  When talking to 
Madame Maxine, he says:
"Course, can't remember her too well... she left, see.  When I was 
abou' three. <snip> Dunno what happened to her...might be dead fer 
all I know..."

I could be wrong, but I think this implies quite strongly that Hagrid 
hasn't had any contact with the giants since his mother left.  It is 
of course possible that he went on some kind of quest to find her and 
was unsuccessful, but I think it unlikely, as he is very accepting of 
the fact that she is not in the slightest bit maternal, and would not 
see any reason to find her - particularly when you consider his 
regard for Dumbledore.

> I have no idea whether his father was still alive when he left (I 
> remember him saying something like "good for him he didn?t see me 
> kicked out of Hogwarts", but I may be wrong), but if he wasn?t, 
where 
> did he go?

His father died the year before he was expelled - his second year - 
he tells the trio when they finally manage to speak to him after 
Rita's scoop.  As to where he went, Hagrid says "Dumbledore let me 
stay on as gamekeeper." (PS/Ch.4).  I thought from this that he 
didn't go anywhere else.

> Dumbledore sending him to the giants at the end of GoF suggests 
that 
> Hagrid knows where to find them and how to handle them. 
> 
> It would also explain his strange living habits, table manners etc. 
I 
> also think JKR let us know suspiciously little about giants in 
> FBAWTFT. 
> 
> But Hagrid was never really happy among the giants, so he realised 
he 
> had to go back to the wizarding world some time, and was glad that 
> Dumbledore offered him the gamekeeper?s job, since he wouldn?t have 
> found anything else.

Again, I don't think that Hagrid did go to the giants at any time.  
As for his strange living habits etc (what is wrong with his table 
manners?  I know he has odd tastes in food, but can't remember any 
mention of bad table manners).  if since the age of 13/14 he has been 
living in a hut in the grounds (with or without his predecessor) and 
has fended for himself, it is not surprising that he has some strange 
ideas and is a little rough and ready.

Catherine




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon May 14 16:18:08 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:08 -0000
Subject: historical notes : Hagrid, Azkaban, Dumbledore, Ogg
In-Reply-To: <9dotc1+hphi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp0g0+ad50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18713


> 
> Is it just me or didn?t Hagrid maybe go off to live with the giants 
> for a while after he left Hogwarts?

There is nothing in the canon to support this, although it's an 
interesting notion. 


> 
> I have no idea whether his father was still alive when he left (I 
> remember him saying something like "good for him he didn?t see me 
> kicked out of Hogwarts", but I may be wrong), but if he wasn?t, 
where 
> did he go?

Hagrid's father died in 1942, when Rubeus was in his second year at 
Hogwarts.

I invite anyone who's interested to check out the timeline of 
Hagrid's life on the Lexicon (go to Timelines => Character timelines 
=> Rubeus Hagrid). The dates given on there are canon (within our 
assumed time line of Harry born in 1980). I will be revising the 
timelines etc. this summer, so I invite comment and suggestions.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
always more than you expected
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 16:19:43 2001
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:19:43 -0000
Subject: Question about Minerva McGonagall
Message-ID: <9dp0iv+ekqc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18714

Hi everyone,

Been lurking for a long time due to university and life catching up 
with me, but I've got a question which I hope someone can answer or 
point me in the correct direction for an answer.  I apologise in 
advance if it's something that's already been discussed to death...

Has JKR said anywhere, e.g. in a chat/interview, how old Minerva 
McGonagall is?  I'm writing a fanfic about her, and I don't want to 
get things too badly wrong.  

Thanks

Blaise.  




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon May 14 16:25:46 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:25:46 -0000
Subject: Question about Minerva McGonagall
In-Reply-To: <9dp0iv+ekqc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp0ua+m890@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18715

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Blaise" <blaise_writer at h...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Been lurking for a long time due to university and life catching up 
> with me, but I've got a question which I hope someone can answer or 
> point me in the correct direction for an answer.  I apologise in 
> advance if it's something that's already been discussed to death...
> 
> Has JKR said anywhere, e.g. in a chat/interview, how old Minerva 
> McGonagall is?  I'm writing a fanfic about her, and I don't want to 
> get things too badly wrong.  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Blaise.

About 70. 

And nice to hear from you again :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
where that kind of information can be easily found (hint hint)
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From vderark at bccs.org  Mon May 14 16:29:10 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:29:10 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP
In-Reply-To: <9dosp4+5uib@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp14m+s625@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18716

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> > The one I like (and it hasn't quite crept on to the Strictly
> > British bit of the Lexicon yet) is "Tripe, Sybil?"  In Brit
> > English, tripe means nonsense as well as the wonderful gliding
> > food.  So McGonagall is commenting on Trelawney's previous remark,
> > as well a offering her food.
> 
> Tripe has the dual meaning in American English too, which is why
> it shouldn't be in the "Strictly British" part.
> 
> "tripe (trIp) n. 
> 
> 1. The light-colored, rubbery lining of the stomach of cattle or 
> other ruminants, used as food. 
> 2. Informal. Something of no value; rubbish."
> 
> American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.
> 


*sigh*

Well, I just added it to Strictly British. And I don't think I'll 
take it back off, since "tripe" was already on there, so it fits 
naturally. But I, solidly Midwestern American that I am, have never 
heard of the word "tripe" used that way. That dictionary might very 
well be including a meaning more commonly used in Britain. It's not a 
specifically American dictionary, despite the title.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From carissabradley at yahoo.com  Mon May 14 16:37:55 2001
From: carissabradley at yahoo.com (carissabradley at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:37:55 -0000
Subject: historical notes : Hagrid, Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <9dolv3+sj5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp1l3+b6n0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18717

> > 
> > > Questions 
> > > Did Hagrid go to Azkaban when expelled from Hogwarts? 
> > 
> > At first, I thought it was implied that he did. There's a strong 
> subtext in
> > the scene in Chamber of Secrets to suggest that he's been there 
> before.
> 
> 
> Even given the Wizarding World's atrocious system of justice and 
the 
> prejudice against giants built into Wizarding society, I can't 
> imagine that Hagrid was sent to Azkaban at 13 years old. I think he 
> was actually expelled on strong suspicions and pressure from the 
> Ministry to arrest somebody and get it over with. I bet he never 
had 
> a trial, he just went quietly, so to speak, and everyone let out a 
> collective sigh and forgot all about it.
> 
> 
> > 
I don't think Hagrid ever went to Azkaban after he was accused of 
opening the Chamber of Secrets.  In CoS, chapter 13 (The Very Secret 
Diary), when Riddle is writing to Harry, he says about the first time 
the chamber was opened, "But I knew it could happen again. The 
monster lived on, and the one who had the power to open it was never 
imprisoned."  Of course, since he is the one who opened it in the 
first place, he could have been talking about himself. However, right 
after this he shows Harry what happened when Hagrid was framed, so I 
think  he meant Hagrid never went to Azkaban. 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 16:43:14 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:43:14 -0000
Subject: TR's training - historical notes on AD, CF, LM - Latin
Message-ID: <9dp1v2+bru1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18718

Gwendolyn Grace wrote:

>However, I am of the opinion that for the
>most part, Tom Riddle was fascinated by dark arts and read all he 
could
>about them from the first day of his first year.

I just read the bit where TR says "it took =me= five whole years to 
find out everything I could about the Chamber of Secrets and discover 
the secret entrance" (CS 17).  He seems to have arrived at Hogwarts 
already determined to practice the Dark Arts.  Did his dear mum leave 
him a letter saying "never be ashamed of who you are--you're the Heir 
of Salazar Slytherin"?

Gwen also wrote <various things suggesting Fudge is older rather than 
younger>.  I wrote recently that the only clues I got were from 
knowing approximately when he became Minister (and I agree with Gwen 
that it's unlikely that he did so when he was only around 30).  But he 
also has gray hair when we meet him in CS (ch 14), further suggesting 
that he is not the early-40's he would be if he'd become Minister at 
30.  That is, plenty of people are gray at 40, but it would probably 
get a comment, as Lupin's hair does, if Fudge were otherwise more 
youthful than his hair would imply.  We also know that wizards gray 
much later than Muggles, as one would expect given their longer 
lifespans (Dumbledore and McGonagall still have their original hair 
color at the ages of 100 and 70, respectively--or do they dye it? 
<g>).

I'm inclined to think that if Fudge doesn't know Malfoy from school, 
it's because he is older than Malfoy, not younger.

Gwen again:

>Dumbledore became headmaster the year the Marauders and
>Snape began at Hogwarts. Lupin alludes to the fact that it was only 
because
>Dumbledore had been promoted that he was allowed to attend the 
school.

Do we know the exact year AD became Headmaster?  It must have been 
between Lupin's bite and the time he began school, because he and his 
family had time to think that he'd never be able to attend Hogwarts.  
But that gives us a window several years wide--say between Lupin's age 
3 ("I was a very small boy when I received the bite") and 11 (c. 
1963-1971).  All we know about it, IIRC, comes from PA 18, and it 
leaves this window open.

>I believe Lucius either completed his schooling well before 
Dumbledore became headmaster (though he
>was still Transfiguration teacher), or was present for a year or two 
of the
>transition (depending on how close in ages LM is with the Marauders). 
I
>think it makes a better story if he went to school under a completely
>different regime, with a different style and a different emphasis on
>teaching methods (as above, with Dippet/Riddle relations), and his
>objections to Dumbledore stem from his interaction with him as a 
colleague,
>not an authority figure.

So that would put Lucius at school sometime from the late 50's to 
early 70's (I'm adding my own assumption that he must've been at 
Hogwarts at least several years after Riddle in order for Draco's 
"before his time, of course" to make sense), making him about 37-47 in 
PS/SS.

Craig wrote:

>But it's probably too poetic to transform "expecto patronum" into
>"I yearn for a father", unless we wish to believe that all "patronus"
>spells cast are psychologically bound to such a yearning or lack.

My take on Lumen Dei's interpretation was that it =was= poetic.  The 
idea is not that everyone who cast the Patronus spell is literally 
longing for a father, but that JKR's choice of words beautifully 
bridges the everyday meaning of the spell (the meaning that would 
apply to everyone who uses it, that of needing and hoping for a 
protector) and the thematic reverberations for Harry.  The poetic 
overlay has an impact on the readers, and tells us what it might not 
tell someone in the wizarding world, to whom "Expecto Patronum" is 
just a spell:  Harry does yearn for a father and finds him, in a 
sense, through his use of these words.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 [The Crup] closely resembles a Jack Russell 
 terrier except for the forked tail.
      -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
------------------------------------------------




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon May 14 17:09:54 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:09:54 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart)
In-Reply-To: <9dosgb+jrrm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp3h2+5mcc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18719

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
> > <snip wonderful analysis of Expecto patronum and HP theme>
> > Thanks for that!  So much more interesting than I thought expecto
> > patronum  was - I should have known, from "Et expecto
> > resurrectionem mortuorum..." from the Latin creed.
> 
> Personally, I think it's a bit overboard as analyses go.
> 
> "Exspectare" (the "s" was there classically) is not just "expect",
> it's true--in fact, its breadth covers "to await", "to expect
> something that is to come or to take place", "to be waiting for",
> "to look for with hope, fear, desire, expectation", "to hope for,
> long for, expect, desire"; "to fear, dread, anticipate, apprehend".
> [Lewis & Short]
> 
> But it's probably too poetic to transform "expecto patronum" into
> "I yearn for a father", unless we wish to believe that 
all "patronus"
> spells cast are psychologically bound to such a yearning or lack.
> I think that "protector", "defender", or "advocate" are all adequate
> translations, that don't add more baggage than intended.

When I was working on the etymology of this spell for the Lexicon, I 
went with the verb "expectorare, which means to expel from the mind 
(literally from the chest), which suggests the sending out of the 
patronus by means of the caster's willpower. This actually makes a 
lot more sense as a spell word. It specifies the action that the 
spell is supposed to produce, which is a sending forth of something 
from within the caster. The word "patronus" comes directly from 
Medieval Latin and means "patron saint" -- not a different meaning, 
really, but an interesting observation. 

I agree that "officially" the spell words "expecto patronum" do not 
intend to suggest a yearning for a father. The meaning is almost 
certainly far more mundane. And I'm not sure JKR intended all the 
subtle shades of meaning we like to read into things like this. But 
so what? I really, really enjoyed this poetic take on the subject. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
with a complete spell encyclopedia, including etymology of spell words
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon May 14 17:20:12 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:20:12 -0000
Subject: Use of names
In-Reply-To: <9dovri+fev1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp44c+im0k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18720

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> David wrote:
> 
> > One of the ways that JKR shows the different characters of the 
> > different teachers is in their use of first names.  So, for 
example, 
> > McGonagall uses 'Mr Potter', 'Miss Grainger', etc most of the 
time. 
>  
> > Snape often just says 'Potter' or 'Longbottom'.  Notice too 
Dobby's 
> > rather inexpert grasp of names.
> 
> > 
> > Dumbledore almost without exception uses first names for everyone 
> > (though there are exceptions).  It is he who lets us first know 
what 
> > these names are in many cases.  So I think calling Moody 'Alastor' 
> is 
> > what I'd expect, even after a fairly slight acqaintance.  He does, 
> > however, refer to other teachers as 'Professor...' when talking to 
> > Harry, even correcting him in PS/SS when Harry refers to 'Snape' 
> > without title.
> > 
> <snip>
> 


I believe that Dumbledore uses first names for two reasons: first, he 
is in a superior or an equal position to everyone we have yet 
encountered, including the Minister of Magic.  Using the familiar 
address reinforces this.  Second, he uses first names to defuse 
situations where passions are running too high, a sort of verbal 
reminder that "we are all on the same side here."  His use of the 
familiar form of address is in distinction to his use of appropriate 
honorific when referring to a person, especially in the presence of a 
student.  As you have said, Albus dumbledore is most courteous.

> 
> -Dumbledore calls students by their first names one-on-one (cf any 
> conversation with Harry), but when speaking to them in front of 
> others, may use their first names or call them "Mr. Potter and Miss 
> Granger" (cf PA ch 21).  In large gatherings he almost always uses 
the 
> latter (cf "I am =not= joking, Mr. Weasley," at opening feast in 
GF). 
>  Dumbledore, in whatever situation, seems to be the model of 
> courtesy (I get this from lots of Dumbledorean adverbs: "politely," 
> "courteously,") so this familiarity does not seem to me to be 
> rudeness.
> 
> 
> -I'm interested in why those who call Voldemort by his name do so.  
> Sirius and Remus do--Harry comments internally on the latter (PA 
> 8)--but we get no explanation of why they are the only people 
besides 
> Dumbledore and Harry who don't do the You Know Who thing.  The 
> implication is that they are less fearful and/or understand that 
> creating a layer of mystery around the name just increases fear, but 
I 
> wonder whether it indicates that they're a part of a circle close to 
> Dumbledore, have gotten the same talk he gave Harry, or what.  
> 

Do you mean a circle such as the "Order of the Phoenix?"
> 
> 
> Amy Z
> who, like your typical USAmerican, prefers for everyone to call her 
by 
> her first name (as long as they permit her to do the same--don't you 
> hate when doctors call you Joe but expect you to call them Dr. 
Jones? 
>  even if they're years younger than you?) but admits to a fondness 
for 
> the NY Times' old-fashioned practice of affixing a title to every 
name
> 
Amy-- if I may so address you-- I am a physician and I run into the 
situation you describe innumerable times.  It is my observation that 
some patients prefer formality in their relationship with their 
doctors.  These I address as "Mrs. or Miss So-and-So", or I take 
refuge in the Southern practice of calling everybody "Ma'am" 
irrespective of age or marital status.  You may have inferred from the 
above that my practice is in Obstetrics & Gynecology.  There are those 
who want some informality in the interaction and these I address 
informally.  I quite agree with you that I never insist upon my 
patients' calling me "Doctor" while addressing them by first name or 
nickname.

Haggridd




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon May 14 17:21:58 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:21:58 -0000
Subject: Harry's looks
In-Reply-To: <004301c0dbf4$62ed5cc0$8988163f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9dp47m+s7lk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18721

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mlmnb" <mlmnb at m...> wrote:
> My first time making a comment, although I faithfully read all 
others daily.
> 
> Regarding Harry's family in the mirror--Lily has green eyes and 
auburn hair,
> but other members of the family in the mirror had green eyes too.
> 
> When I read this passage, I just assumed that Harry had his 
mother's eyes
> and the black hair coloring of James. I don't remember anywhere 
that Aunt
> Petunia or Dudley are described as having green eyes.
> 
> For anyone who has polygenic features (a mix of both sides of the 
family)
> who's to say that both sides of Harry's family didn't have a 
predominant
> strain of green eyes?  Green eyes, like blue, are a recessive gene, 
brown is
> normally the dominant eye color, unless the recessive gene is 
present in
> both parents' genes.  Just a thought.   Maybe JKR didn't give this 
a lot of
> thought, or maybe she did and we just have to wait for later books.
> 
> In the meantime, must start reading SS again!
> Dane, Ravenclaw

Aunt Petunia was described as having blonde hair in SS/PS. It's 
possible that Lily had auburn hair while Petunia is a blonde because 
of gene expression. Another possibility is that Petunia is a bottle 
blonde. I don't have the books with me, but for some reason I have a 
feeling that I read Petunia as having blue eyes...If I'm wrong, 
someone will correct me.

Harry's green eyes could also be explained by gene expression. For 
Lily to have green eyes, she would have to have had both recessive 
genes for green eyes (homozygous recessive). James would have had to 
have the dominant gene and the recessive gene (heterozygous). If 
James were homozygous dominant, Harry would have had dark eyes.

B= dominant gene eye color
b= recessive gene

     B   B (James)
b   Bb   Bb          If James has genes BB and Lily has genes bb,
b   Bb   Bb          then all their offspring will be Bb and will    
(Lily)               have the dominant eye color (brown or some 
                     variation of it)

     B   b           If James has genes Bb and Lily has genes bb,
b    Bb  bb          then each child they have will have a 50% chance
b    Bb  bb          of having green eyes like Lily or the dominant
(Lily)               eye color.

Same goes for hair color. Black or brown is the dominant hair color. 
Blonde is recessive. However, the genes can vary in their expression, 
thus resulting in the varying shades of "brown" hair and the varying 
shades of blonde and the varying shades of red. Sort of off-topic, 
but the March sisters in Little Women had different hair color: Meg 
had light brown hair, Jo had "chestnut" brown hair, Beth was red-
haired (rosy) and Amy was blond (fair-haired)

Milz (who believes she just totally confused everyone who read this, 
so just disregard)




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Mon May 14 17:27:34 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:27:34 -0000
Subject: Use of names
In-Reply-To: <9dovri+fev1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp4i6+hb7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18722

Amy Z wrote:  

> -McGonagall actually refers to most male students by their last 
names...[but] like Binns and some other professors, even Snape, 
> she is more likely to refer to girls as "Miss" whomever.

I always assumed this was a function of the English Boarding School 
system. Any attendees/former attendees who can verify? (Or maybe I'm 
just thinking of English boarding schools in Merchant-Ivory-ish 
movies). 
 

Amy again: "Lupin calls Snape by his first name but Snape calls him 
by his last > name.  I'm not sure what to conclude from this.  Is one 
of them being > rude, and if so, which?"

I think it's Snape being rude. He and Lupin are colleagues and equals 
(tho' obviously not in his mind). For Snape to refer to Lupin by his 
last name--the way he refers to his male students--is a put-down. 

And finally, re: Snape calling Dumbledore "headmaster," Lupin *does* 
do it, once. Dumbledore tells him his carriage is waiting and he 
says, "Thank you, headmaster." IIRC, those're the last words Lupin 
speaks to Dumbledore. They have their awkward shake-over-the-grindlow-
tank and he's gone. Very moving.

~Rosmerta




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 17:27:57 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:27:57 -0000
Subject: Wordplay in HP
In-Reply-To: <9dp14m+s625@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp4it+bjee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18723

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Well, I just added it to Strictly British. And I don't think I'll 
> take it back off, since "tripe" was already on there, so it fits 
> naturally. But I, solidly Midwestern American that I am, have never 
> heard of the word "tripe" used that way. That dictionary might very 
> well be including a meaning more commonly used in Britain. It's
> not a specifically American dictionary, despite the title.

No, Briticisms are marked as "Chiefly British" in the dictionary,
and this is not the case for "tripe".  Moreover, Merriam-Webster
Online concurs.  They mark Briticisms with "British" or "Chiefly
British"--the former is used for "kerb", the latter is used for
"lift" meaning elevator.  "Tripe" is not marked as such.

Rest assured, on the East Coast, we are familiar with tripe in both
its meanings.  It is most definitely not British only and doesn't
belong in the Strictly British section.

....Craig




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 17:41:27 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:41:27 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart)
In-Reply-To: <9dp3h2+5mcc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp5c7+6s2g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18724

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> When I was working on the etymology of this spell for the Lexicon,
> I went with the verb "expectorare, which means to expel from the
> mind (literally from the chest), which suggests the sending out of
> the patronus by means of the caster's willpower. This actually
> makes a lot more sense as a spell word. It specifies the action
> that the spell is supposed to produce, which is a sending forth of
> something from within the caster. The word "patronus" comes
> directly from Medieval Latin and means "patron saint" -- not a
> different meaning, really, but an interesting observation.

But "expectorare" has a first person singular present of
"expectoro"; whereas, "expectare" has the intended first person
singular of "expecto".  They are in no wise even close.

The verb "expectorate" in English is derived from the former, and
should be understood as "spitting" or "vomiting".

While I see your interpretation of "expectorare" as "to expel from
the mind" - the intent when used metaphorically is closer to
*banishing* from the mind.  Banishment/expulsion especially when
coupled with the ideas of spitting and vomiting is not a positive
one, so I'm at a loss to understand why "expectorare" and not
"expectare"?

....Craig




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon May 14 17:45:01 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:45:01 -0000
Subject: Use of names
In-Reply-To: <9dp44c+im0k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp5it+eqtv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18725

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > David wrote:
> > 
> > > One of the ways that JKR shows the different characters of the 
> > > different teachers is in their use of first names.  So, for 
> example, 
> > > McGonagall uses 'Mr Potter', 'Miss Grainger', etc most of the 
> time. 
> >  
> > > Snape often just says 'Potter' or 'Longbottom'.  Notice too 
> Dobby's 
> > > rather inexpert grasp of names.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Dumbledore almost without exception uses first names for 
everyone 
> > > (though there are exceptions).  It is he who lets us first know 
> what 
> > > these names are in many cases.  So I think calling 
Moody 'Alastor' 
> > is 
> > > what I'd expect, even after a fairly slight acqaintance.  He 
does, 
> > > however, refer to other teachers as 'Professor...' when talking 
to 
> > > Harry, even correcting him in PS/SS when Harry refers 
to 'Snape' 
> > > without title.
> > > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> 
> 
> I believe that Dumbledore uses first names for two reasons: first, 
he 
> is in a superior or an equal position to everyone we have yet 
> encountered, including the Minister of Magic.  Using the familiar 
> address reinforces this.  Second, he uses first names to defuse 
> situations where passions are running too high, a sort of verbal 
> reminder that "we are all on the same side here."  His use of the 
> familiar form of address is in distinction to his use of 
appropriate 
> honorific when referring to a person, especially in the presence of 
a 
> student.  As you have said, Albus dumbledore is most courteous.
> 
> > 
> > -Dumbledore calls students by their first names one-on-one (cf 
any 
> > conversation with Harry), but when speaking to them in front of 
> > others, may use their first names or call them "Mr. Potter and 
Miss 
> > Granger" (cf PA ch 21).  In large gatherings he almost always 
uses 
> the 
> > latter (cf "I am =not= joking, Mr. Weasley," at opening feast in 
> GF). 
> >  Dumbledore, in whatever situation, seems to be the model of 
> > courtesy (I get this from lots of Dumbledorean 
adverbs: "politely," 
> > "courteously,") so this familiarity does not seem to me to be 
> > rudeness.
> > 
> > 
> > -I'm interested in why those who call Voldemort by his name do 
so.  
> > Sirius and Remus do--Harry comments internally on the latter (PA 
> > 8)--but we get no explanation of why they are the only people 
> besides 
> > Dumbledore and Harry who don't do the You Know Who thing.  The 
> > implication is that they are less fearful and/or understand that 
> > creating a layer of mystery around the name just increases fear, 
but 
> I 
> > wonder whether it indicates that they're a part of a circle close 
to 
> > Dumbledore, have gotten the same talk he gave Harry, or what.  
> > 
> 
> Do you mean a circle such as the "Order of the Phoenix?"
> > 
> > 
> > Amy Z
> > who, like your typical USAmerican, prefers for everyone to call 
her 
> by 
> > her first name (as long as they permit her to do the same--don't 
you 
> > hate when doctors call you Joe but expect you to call them Dr. 
> Jones? 
> >  even if they're years younger than you?) but admits to a 
fondness 
> for 
> > the NY Times' old-fashioned practice of affixing a title to every 
> name
> > 
> Amy-- if I may so address you-- I am a physician and I run into the 
> situation you describe innumerable times.  It is my observation 
that 
> some patients prefer formality in their relationship with their 
> doctors.  These I address as "Mrs. or Miss So-and-So", or I take 
> refuge in the Southern practice of calling everybody "Ma'am" 
> irrespective of age or marital status.  You may have inferred from 
the 
> above that my practice is in Obstetrics & Gynecology.  There are 
those 
> who want some informality in the interaction and these I address 
> informally.  I quite agree with you that I never insist upon my 
> patients' calling me "Doctor" while addressing them by first name 
or 
> nickname.


Dumbledore has use the title "Mr." and "Miss" when referring to 
students in the books. In SS/PS he says that the toilet seat was sent 
by Messrs. Fred and George Weasley (or something to that effect). He 
does correct Harry for addressing Snape as "Snape". With the other 
adults, Dumbledore uses their given names in an informal situation. 
CoS, he calls Snape 'Severus' when Harry and Ron are in Snapes office 
after they whomped the Whomping Willow. Going by really strict (Emily 
Post, Letitia Baldridge, Amy Vanderbuilt type) etiquette, an adult 
can address another adult by his given name if they are close 
acquaintances. Children must address adults as Mr, Miss, etc.

IIRC, Snape addresses the male students by the surname and the female 
students as "Miss ______".

Slightly OT, I knew a pediatrician who used to address ALL his 
patients as "Mr." or "Miss." The children and their parents didn't 
mind this at all. 

:-)Milz




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 17:49:49 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:49:49 -0000
Subject: Harry's looks
In-Reply-To: <9dp47m+s7lk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp5rt+h26i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18726

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> 
> Harry's green eyes could also be explained by gene expression. For 
> Lily to have green eyes, she would have to have had both recessive 
> genes for green eyes (homozygous recessive). James would have had
> to  have the dominant gene and the recessive gene (heterozygous).
> If James were homozygous dominant, Harry would have had dark eyes.

Punnett squares notwithstanding, eye color is determined by a
combination of at least three genes: bey2, on chromosome 15,
(brown/blue), gey on chromosome 19 (blue/green), and bey 1, on
chromosome 15, (central brown eye color).  So, it's a bit more
complicated than a binary trait.

....Craig




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 18:08:23 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:08:23 -0000
Subject: Use of names
In-Reply-To: <9dp5it+eqtv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp6un+suja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18727

Milz wrote:

>Going by really strict (Emily 
> Post, Letitia Baldridge, Amy Vanderbuilt type) etiquette, an adult 
> can address another adult by his given name if they are close 
> acquaintances. Children must address adults as Mr, Miss, etc.

I hope they've updated this to Ms.  Making assumptions about someone's 
marital status is rude in a whole other way . . . and I for one don't 
like my marital status to be a part of my name even when the speaker 
does know it.  This blew my students' minds, who could not absorb the 
idea that I was married but still expected to be called Ms.  Somewhere 
along the line, Ms. came to mean "Miss," i.e. "Unmarried Woman," which 
rather defeats its purpose.

Rosmerta wrote:

>And finally, re: Snape calling Dumbledore "headmaster," Lupin *does* 
>do it, once. Dumbledore tells him his carriage is waiting and he 
>says, "Thank you, headmaster." IIRC, those're the last words Lupin 
>speaks to Dumbledore. They have their awkward 
shake-over-the-grindlow-
>tank and he's gone. Very moving.

Yes, others besides Snape call Dumbledore that now and then.  Snape is 
just unusual in that he calls him Headmaster more often than he calls 
him anything else.

I'm very moved by that scene too.

Amy Z




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon May 14 18:13:11 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:13:11 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart)
In-Reply-To: <9dp5c7+6s2g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp77n+s1tm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18728


> 
> But "expectorare" has a first person singular present of
> "expectoro"; whereas, "expectare" has the intended first person
> singular of "expecto".  They are in no wise even close.
> 
> The verb "expectorate" in English is derived from the former, and
> should be understood as "spitting" or "vomiting".
> 
> While I see your interpretation of "expectorare" as "to expel from
> the mind" - the intent when used metaphorically is closer to
> *banishing* from the mind.  Banishment/expulsion especially when
> coupled with the ideas of spitting and vomiting is not a positive
> one, so I'm at a loss to understand why "expectorare" and not
> "expectare"?

That's true. The spitting/vomiting meaning is only one of the 
meanings for that verb, but the difference in first person singular 
is unmistakable. I'll change the Lexicon entry to use "expecto" 
instead. 

I don't know about everyone else, but I find this discussion of Latin 
words etc. absolutely fascinating. It's been twenty years since my 
last Latin class, but I still love that language and I thing it's 
great that JKR chose to use it for her incantations. I wonder how 
deeply she researches the words she chooses. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 18:18:20 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:18:20 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart)
In-Reply-To: <9dp77n+s1tm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp7hc+bas3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18729

Steve wrote:

> That's true. The spitting/vomiting meaning is only one of the 
> meanings for that verb, but the difference in first person singular 
> is unmistakable. I'll change the Lexicon entry to use "expecto" 
> instead. 

The spitting/vomiting/banishing still stands as an echo:  another one 
of the poetic, though not literal, meanings.

> I don't know about everyone else, but I find this discussion of 
Latin 
> words etc. absolutely fascinating. 

Me too!  I never studied Latin (yet <g>) and I love etymology.  I 
really appreciate the expertise from the listies who know Latin.

Amy Z




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon May 14 18:17:48 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:17:48 -0000
Subject: Harry's looks
In-Reply-To: <9dp5rt+h26i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dp7gd+ihmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18730

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> > 
> > Harry's green eyes could also be explained by gene expression. 
For 
> > Lily to have green eyes, she would have to have had both 
recessive 
> > genes for green eyes (homozygous recessive). James would have had
> > to  have the dominant gene and the recessive gene (heterozygous).
> > If James were homozygous dominant, Harry would have had dark eyes.
> 
> Punnett squares notwithstanding, eye color is determined by a
> combination of at least three genes: bey2, on chromosome 15,
> (brown/blue), gey on chromosome 19 (blue/green), and bey 1, on
> chromosome 15, (central brown eye color).  So, it's a bit more
> complicated than a binary trait.
> 
> ....Craig

I know, but illustrating a binary trait is less messy, 
diagramatically speaking and it still gets the general point across 
that relying solely upon phenotype can be deceiving.

:-) Milz who eyes cross then glaze over at the sight of busy diagrams 
and charts.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 18:33:49 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:33:49 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Use of names
Message-ID: <LAW2-F110bXCH5n00ze000080ae@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18731

Amy wrote:
<snip excellent observations on names>

>-McGonagall actually refers to most male students by their last names;
>I don't believe she ever calls Harry Harry, even when she's feeling
>quite tender towards him (e.g. when she takes him out to the tent for
>the first task [GF, "The First Task"], or tries to bring him to the
>hospital wing after he's narrowly rescued from Crouch Jr. [GF,
>"Veritaserum"]).  Like Binns and some other professors, even Snape,
>she is more likely to refer to girls as "Miss" whomever.

For whatever reason, in the kind of school where it is usual to call boys by 
last names only, it is not usual to refer to girls in the same way.  
MacGonagall's usage conforms with this.  I think it shows her less willing 
to step outside her role at Hogwarts than Dumbledore is.
<snip>

>-Lupin calls Snape by his first name but Snape calls him by his last
>name.  I'm not sure what to conclude from this.  Is one of them being
>rude, and if so, which?  (Lupin for being more familiar than Snape is
>comfortable with, or Snape for rebuffing a friendly gesture?)  Or
>maybe it means nothing; each is simply referring to the other the way
>he refers to everyone of similar rank.

I think Snape is being marginally ruder, though it is a kind of standoff, in 
that neither is prepared to adjust their own usage to the other's.  Like 
you, I'm not sure how much weight to put on this.  And it may be largely 
because of the plot-point you mention.

>-I find it a little odd when Parvati refers to Hermione as "Hermione
>Granger" (it's right after Harry asks her to the ball).  There is
>probably only one Hermione in the school, and she's Parvati's roommate
>and constant classmate--this gives an odd sense that they are quite
>distant.

It is odd, especially as, even if there were two Hermiones, she could 
reasonably expect Harry to think of his close friend first.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 19:03:35 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:03:35 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: historical notes : Hagrid, Azkaban, Dumbledore, Ogg
Message-ID: <LAW2-F51fpJ6XagpPoe0000819b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18732

Catherine wrote:
>I can't think of anything in canon to support this.  When talking to
>Madame Maxine, he says:
>"Course, can't remember her too well... she left, see.  When I was
>abou' three. <snip> Dunno what happened to her...might be dead fer
>all I know..."
>
>I could be wrong, but I think this implies quite strongly that Hagrid
>hasn't had any contact with the giants since his mother left.  It is
>of course possible that he went on some kind of quest to find her and
>was unsuccessful, but I think it unlikely, as he is very accepting of
>the fact that she is not in the slightest bit maternal, and would not
>see any reason to find her - particularly when you consider his
>regard for Dumbledore.

Agree.  I think D sends him because he is a half-giant, and not prejudiced 
against them, so will find it easier to make contact.  Perhaps he even 
speaks Giantish (or whatever it may be) or did when a child.  I think his 
acceptance of his mother's unmaternal ways is fairly superficial - 
certainly, he is loyal to her, and this may be his rationalisation.  But he 
is so maternal himself - he loves raising young creatures, refers to himself 
as "Mummy", can see no wrong in his "baby", even when everyone else is 
backing away, pale and trembling ;) -that it can be no co-incidence. It's as 
if he has to be Mummy, to replace the one who went away, or to make up for 
her lack of mothering.
I think he will meet his mother again - I hope it's a happy meeting!  Also 
agree it's a slur to suggest he has bad table manners - he's very 
punctilious about offering the guests a stoat sandwich or a rock cake, even 
though they back away, pale and trembling...

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From bkdelong at pobox.com  Mon May 14 19:06:58 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:06:58 -0400
Subject: Reporter wants to speak with HP fans about upcoming video games
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514150128.049a2540@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18733

Hi all -

I just got off the phone with Dawn Chmielewski from the San Jose Mercury 
News who's writing an article about the upcoming Harry Potter games from 
Electronic Arts and whether fans are looking forward to them, what they 
want to see and what they want EA to get right.

I told her the concern of the MMOG and how rumor had it that it was put on 
hold indefinitely....and also that the pictures HP Galleries came across 
looked nothing like the characters: http://www.hpgalleries.com/art17.htm

I also told her how details were key and that not only did I, as a fan, 
want them to get all the details about the main characters but that people 
wanted minor characters like Madame Pomfrey and Prof. Sprout to be done 
correctly as well.

She can be reached at the below info:

Dawn C. Chmielewski
Staff Writer
San Jose Mercury News
Phone: (714) 669-9913
DChmielewski at sjmercury.com

--
B.K. DeLong
Contributor
The Leaky Cauldron
  an (unofficial) Harry Potter news site
+1.617.877.3271

bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon May 14 20:53:00 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:53:00 -0000
Subject: TR's training 
In-Reply-To: <9dp1v2+bru1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dpgjc+8ha9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18734

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Gwendolyn Grace wrote:
> 
> >However, I am of the opinion that for the
> >most part, Tom Riddle was fascinated by dark arts and read all he 
> could
> >about them from the first day of his first year.
> 
> I just read the bit where TR says "it took =me= five whole years to 
> find out everything I could about the Chamber of Secrets and discover 
> the secret entrance" (CS 17).  He seems to have arrived at Hogwarts 
> already determined to practice the Dark Arts.  Did his dear mum leave 
> him a letter saying "never be ashamed of who you are--you're the Heir 
> of Salazar Slytherin"?

	We know that "Hogwarts: A History" contains a reference to the 
Chamber of Secrets, because Hermione remembers having read about it, 
CoS ch. 9. So Tom could have read about it during his first year and 
persuaded himself that *he* was be the heir on the basis of being able 
to speak Parseltongue. (I wonder how he found out? Maybe he let a 
magical fire burn too long and summoned an ashwinder.)  He then 
launched himself on his five year search for the Chamber. It wouldn't 
surprise me to learn that there were  all sorts of Dark Arts tomes and 
maybe even magical devices stashed away in the Chamber which would 
enable Tom to discover more about his ancestry, and much else besides.
	

Pippin





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 20:56:44 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:56:44 
Subject: Average Harry?  (was:  International Conference Discusses HP, Tolkien)
Message-ID: <F200d6QR7j1HaKtKufV00006bfb@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18735

Hi Jim and list:

Jim wrote:
>I just found a good article about the recent International Congress
>on Medieval Studies held at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo,
>MI.
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/12/arts/12MIDD.html (site registration
>required)
>
>Here's a quote from the story:
>
>"Tolkien refashioned the old medieval epics into what we now call
>fantasy literature," ... "He's the bridge figure who updated the
>genre. Harry Potter is infused with the Middle Earth ethos, which is
>about the ordinary or smaller man who goes on to win great victories."
>(Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company)
>
>IMHO, something is lost when Harry is turned into a superhero, as in
>some fanfic. Kudos to JKR for going against the flow of Saturday
>Morning Television and giving us stories out of such a venerable
>tradition.

Oh, but Jim, I think that you're overstating here.  :-)  Superheroes come 
from a venerable tradition as well... one that is just as worthy and even 
older than the everyday hero (whose heroism, it can be stated, separates 
them from the pack anyway).  Protagonists with extraordinary abilities are 
directly descended from folkloric archetypes.

One doesn't have to have superpowers to be extraordinary.  The trickster 
figure is extraordinary.  The character who is extremely lucky is 
extraordinary.  The character who is extremely faithful (Penelope in Greek 
myth), loves unto death (Aida), or extremely persistent (The Little Engine 
That Could) are all extraordinary.

And Harry's extraordinary as well.

I think that Harry's intrinsically gifted in some areas, and I drew that 
conclusion from canon.  He's a natural flyer.  At age 13, he conjured a 
perfect Patronus... Lupin states that plenty of fully qualified wizards 
cannot do this.  At age 14, he threw off the Imperius Curse... many fully 
qualified wizards' lives were destroyed during Voldemort's first rise 
because of this hex.

I do admit that none of this evidence is conclusive.  However, one cannot 
slap a Joe Public kid label on Harry and ignore the evidence that is 
contrary.  Harry is similar to the Lord of the Rings sequence in some 
respects, but there is *not* a direct parallel.

There's something about Harry himself that is different.  He doesn't have to 
be Superman... but he's not your average bear either.  I came to that 
conclusion on my own from reading canon, pre-fanfic, and was utterly shocked 
last year when I learned the majority of the fandom believes that Harry's 
Joe Public.  Sure, I believed Harry was just a regular kid in PS/SS and CoS, 
perhaps one with lots of luck.  Began to scratch my head in PoA.  But after 
I read GoF, I was driven to find grown-up fans in part *because* I thought 
there was something more to Harry than met the eye.

In fact, I'll even stick my neck out and state this: If Harry lives beyond 
Book 7, if he doesn't lose his magical ability, and if he doesn't go into 
hiding, he *can't* remain average and live very long.  Here's why.

If and when Voldemort's taken out, all of his sympathizers will *not* be 
taken out with him.  Neither will his most staunch supporters reform... I'm 
talking a "reprobate mind" here.  Unless every bad wizard is killed off at 
the end of Book 7 (right), there's going to be somebody who wants Harry 
dead.

If he's Joe Public, they'll kill him.  If he's not, they'll think
twice before they try.

Another barrier to Harry being Joe Public is the first 17 years of
his life.  From age one to age eleven, he lives with the Dursleys...
enough said.  From age eleven to age seventeen, he's basically a
walking target.  If he outlives Voldemort and co., he's not going to
have any idea what normalcy is.  (Personally, I think that the term "normal" 
itself is a misnomer.)  He's going to have a mountain of
issues.  Many of us who work with kids are surprised that the
character isn't worse off than he is emotionally and mentally.  This
itself bespeaks of emotional intelligence that is beyond the so-
called "norm".

Perhaps I'm just not seeing the problem with giftedness.  It's a very
sticky issue with me... I was a gifted kid (IQ 160--which is why I
laugh at books like *The Bell Curve*) and I teach gifted kids.  It
can be argued that magical kids in general are gifted.  Well, even in
TAG programs we teach students with varying degrees of giftedness in
each area of Gardner's multiple intelligences, just as special ed
teachers teach students with varying degrees of challenges/special
needs.  I don't think that intellectually gifted kids should feel as
if they have to apologize for their mental abilities.

As for the Dumbledore quote, it's one I like as well, but it can be
applied in the context of giftedness.  There are gifted people who
have healed the world and who have brought it grief.  I bet you Tom
Riddle was not an average wizard... he chose to go bad.  His
abilities didn't make him bad, his choices did.

So no, I don't think I'll ever buy the "average-Joe" theory, until and/or 
unless JKR writes it into canon.

Just my .02 Galleons.

--Ebony (who has quite a number of friends, colleagues, and co-workers who 
attended Western Michigan)

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
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"Not that great German master in his dream
Of harmonies that thundered amongst the stars
At the creation, ever heard a theme
Nobler than 'Go down, Moses.'  Mark its bars--
How like a mighty trumpet-call they stir
The blood.  Such are the notes that men have sung
Going to valorous deeds; such tones there were
That helped make history when Time was young."

--James Weldon Johnson, composer, Negro National Anthem

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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon May 14 22:51:17 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:51:17 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's use of names
In-Reply-To: <9dorju+4m2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dpnh5+7anq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18736

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lea.macleod at g... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > There is also a study to be done on use of 
> He-who-must-not-be-named 
> > > vs You-know-who vs Dark Lord (unless I've missed it).
> > > 
> > 
> > One clue about Moody/Crouch's identity that I didn't pick up till 
I 
> > re-read GoF, is that he never utters the name Voldemort. 
> 
> 
> Very well observed, CM!
> 
> I thought those who are against Voldemort say "You know who", 
unless 
> they?re especially brave (or ignorant, as Harry in book 1). I think 
> we?ve heard only Dumbledore, Harry and Sirius calling him by his 
name 
> so far. Lupin too, maybe, but I can?t check that right now. I find 
it 
> strange that Prof. McGonagall doesn?t.


McGonagall and Hagrid each say the name in PS/SS, but only when 
challenged to (by Dumbledore and Harry respectively), and they both 
use it with some misgivings

"I have never seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort's 
name."

"I know you haven 't, said Professor McGonagall, sounding half 
exasperated, half admiring. "But you're different. Everyone knows 
you're the only one You-Know- oh, all right, Voldemort, was 
frightened of." (Chap. 1)

See, there was this wizard who went... bad. As bad as you could go. 
Worse. Worse than worse. His name was..."

Hagrid gulped, but no words came out.

"Could you write it down?" Harry suggested.

"Nah -can't spell it. All right -- Voldemort. " Hagrid 
shuddered. "Don' make me say it again (Chap. 5)

The only other character I can think of who uses the name besides the 
quartet (Harry, Dumbledore, Black & Lupin) is, surprisingly, 
Cornelius Fudge, in Chapter 36 of GoF.  In his "Parting" 
confrontation with Dumbledore, with a "strange smile" on his face, 
Fudge asks of Dumbledore, "You are prepared to believe that Lord 
Voldemort has returned, on the word of a lunatic murderer, and a boy 
who....well..."

Earlier, Fudge had always scrupulously used "You-Know-Who" whenever 
he discussed Voldemort. What is Fudge doing here? My guess is that he 
trying to show Dumbledore that he is not afraid of Voldemort, and 
that he is so certain that Voldy has not returned that he will use 
the name. Of course, Fudge also lacks confidence in himself, 
especially in facing Dumbledore, so he never repeats the name.

It seems to me that Barty Crouch Sr. once uttered the name Voldemort, 
but I can't find the reference now. During the PEnsieve scene, he 
always refers to "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named."

  - CMC






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon May 14 23:00:01 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:00:01 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?  (was:  International Conference Discusses HP, Tolkien)
In-Reply-To: <F200d6QR7j1HaKtKufV00006bfb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dpo1h+k91e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18737

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Hi Jim and list:
> 
> Jim wrote:
> >I just found a good article about the recent International Congress
> >on Medieval Studies held at Western Michigan University in 
Kalamazoo,
> >MI.
> >
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/12/arts/12MIDD.html (site 
registration
> >required)
> >
> >Here's a quote from the story:
> 
> 
> Oh, but Jim, I think that you're overstating here.  :-)  
Superheroes come 
> from a venerable tradition as well... one that is just as worthy 
and even 
> older than the everyday hero (whose heroism, it can be stated, 
separates 
> them from the pack anyway).  Protagonists with extraordinary 
abilities are 
> directly descended from folkloric archetypes.
> 
> And Harry's extraordinary as well

Another parallel would be King Arthur, who according to legend was 
regarded by all as a seemingly nondescript sort of kid until he 
unknowingly removed Excalibur from the stone.  This aspect of Arthur- 
gawky kid on the verge of discovering his destiny -  is dealt with 
very well in TH White's The Sword in the Stone.

  - CMC




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Mon May 14 23:06:25 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:06:25 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 5
Message-ID: <9dpodh+i4uv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18738

Because I tend to run on a bit <g>, I've decided to post this in 
three separate posts.  Questions will follow the third post.  

Chapter 5 "The Dementors"

Harry, Hermione, and Ron leave for Hogwarts from the Leaky Cauldron 
in a Ministry car.  Arthur Weasley tells Harry about Sirius Black and 
makes him promise not to go looking for him.  The troika board the 
train.  The only compartment not full is one at the end of the train 
where there's a lone occupant: an adult.  His name is RJ Lupin 
(Hermione reads this on his case) and he's rather unassuming-
looking.  He wears neatly patched robes, he looks ill and exhausted, 
and though he looks young, his light brown hair is flecked with 
grey.  
Harry's Pocket Sneakoscope goes off and they think nothing of it.  
Harry wraps it in Vernon's mouldy old socks.  Malfoy, Crabbe, and 
Goyle come into their compartment, insult Ron, but back off when they 
see Lupin and are told who he is. 
The train stops, the lights go out; there's confusion when Ginny and 
Neville enter the compartment.  Lupin wakes up, conjures a handful of 
light.  The Dementor comes into the compartment and just stands 
there.  Harry hears screams and then faints.  He comes to quite 
confused.  Lupin gives them all chocolate (which they don't eat until 
he urges them to).  Upon questioning Hermione and Ron, Harry learns 
that Lupin got rid of the Dementors by muttering something and a 
silvery thing shot out of the end of his wand.  The Dementor then 
left.  
They arrive at the station and catch the coaches to the castle.  Once 
there, Malfoy jibes at Harry for fainting.  Lupin again prevents 
further problems.  
Professor McGonagall calls Harry and Hermione to her office.  Madam 
Pomfrey is there and checks Harry over.  He insists that he is OK and 
tells her that Lupin gave them chocolate.  Madam Pomfrey is very 
impressed.  McGonagall sends Harry out and speaks with Hermione 
alone.  She emerges looking pleased and they go down to join the 
feast.  
Dumbledore explains to the assembled students why the Dementors are 
there and introduces two new professors:  Remus Lupin, who receives 
enthusiastic applause only from those who shared his train 
compartment; and Rubeus Hagrid, who receives applause from everyone.  
When they go up to bed, Harry feels as though he's home at last.  




From natabat at crosswinds.net  Mon May 14 23:09:23 2001
From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:09:23 -0700
Subject: Euphamisms for Voldemort (was Re: Dumbledore's use of names)
References: <9dpnh5+7anq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001401c0dcca$eb85e8a0$0101a8c0@hp>

No: HPFGUIDX 18739

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
<snip>

> It seems to me that Barty Crouch Sr. once uttered the name Voldemort,
> but I can't find the reference now. During the PEnsieve scene, he
> always refers to "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named."
>
>   - CMC

In the scene where he comes stumbling out of the Forbidden Forest insane, he
refers to Voldy as  "the Dark Lord." Later, when Harry is trying to
reporting the incident to Dumbledore, he says Crouch said "something about
Voldemort getting stronger. ..."

Which, in light of recent speculation, is quite interesting. Perhaps he was
so used to hearing Jr. refer to Voldy that way that he picked it up himself.

Natalie
natabat at flashmail.com / natabat at crosswinds.net
http://www.natabat.com
-----
"A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimension."
- Oliver Wendell Holmes





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon May 14 23:10:05 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:10:05 -0000
Subject: TR's training
In-Reply-To: <9dpgjc+8ha9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dpokd+ksoe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18740

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 

> 
> 	We know that "Hogwarts: A History" contains a reference to 
the 
> Chamber of Secrets, It wouldn't 
> surprise me to learn that there were  all sorts of Dark Arts tomes 
and 
> maybe even magical devices stashed away in the Chamber which would 
> enable Tom to discover more about his ancestry, and much else 
besides.
> 	
 
Also, don't forget the Restricted Section of the Hogwarts' library. 
Perhaps "Moste Potente Potions" is one of the more innocuous volumes 
on its shelves, and that its archives include a number of Dark Arts 
texts ("The Dummies' Guide to Dark Arts," etc). We know from CoS that 
all a student needs is a signed slip from a teacher to access the 
Restricted Section (Hermione cons Lockhart into granting her 
permission). Perhaps Riddle had a sympathetic (or stupid) teacher who 
gave him similar permission. And of course an enterprising young man, 
such as Harry or Tom, never lack for ways of just sneaking in 
surreptitiously.

    - CMC 




From moragt at hotmail.com  Mon May 14 23:20:48 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:20:48 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Average Harry? (was: International Conference Discusses HP, Tolkien)
Message-ID: <LAW2-F27ZS2TRqf69aZ0000870a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18741

Ebony wrote:
<snip lots of good stuff>
>There's something about Harry himself that is different.  He doesn't have 
>to
>be Superman... but he's not your average bear either.  I came to that
>conclusion on my own from reading canon, pre-fanfic, and was utterly 
>shocked
>last year when I learned the majority of the fandom believes that Harry's
>Joe Public.  Sure, I believed Harry was just a regular kid in PS/SS and 
>CoS,
>perhaps one with lots of luck.  Began to scratch my head in PoA.  But after
>I read GoF, I was driven to find grown-up fans in part *because* I thought
>there was something more to Harry than met the eye.
<snip more good stuff>
You tell 'em, Ebony!  Harry may be little, but he's not ordinary.  He's 
human enough to relate to, but he's a child of destiny too.  He stands for 
the extraordinary in us.  He experiences his extraordinariness as a burden, 
but he carries it with a lot of grace.  I'm not a big Lord of the Rings fan, 
but isn't it the case that all the characters are adults?  Harry still has 
room to grow and develop, and it's going to be fascinating to see where he 
goes.

_________________________________________________________________________
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From pbnesbit at msn.com  Mon May 14 23:33:48 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:33:48 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 6
Message-ID: <9dpq0t+6d3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18742

Chapter 6  "Talons and Tea Leaves"

As Harry and Company enter the Great Hall for breakfast the next day, 
Malfoy does an impersonation of a swooning fit and Pansy Parkinson 
calls out that the Dementors are coming.  When they sit down next to 
Fred and George, Fred tells Harry that Malfoy nearly wet himself when 
the Dementors were down at their end of the train.  They see 
Hermione's schedule and she passes the fullness of it off lightly.  
They see Hagrid, who tells them that he's been up since 5.30 
preparing for his first class.  Ron seems a bit apprehensive about 
this. 
On their way to their first class, Divination, they run across Sir 
Cadogan, who sees it as a quest and helps them find their way.  
The classroom is close and the fire is heavily perfumed.  Professor 
Trelawny looks like an overgrown insect in her glasses, green robes, 
and many beads and bangles.  She tells the class that book learning 
can only take one so far.  Hermione looks startled at this news.  
They read tea leaves for their first lesson and Professor Trelawny 
sees the Grim in Harry's cup.  
In Transfiguration, the whole class is still thinking about what 
Professor Trelawny said to Harry that they fail to be impressed when 
Professor McGonagall turns into a cat and back.  She is not amused.  
She informs the class that Trelawny has predicted the death of one 
student a year ever since she came to teach at Hogwarts (no one has 
died yet)and informs Harry that if he dies he needn't turn in his 
homework.  
At lunch, Ron asks Harry if he *has* seen a large black dog.  Harry 
replies that he has.  Ron isn't too happy about this.  Hermione 
counters with logic and Ron tells her that she doesn't like being 
rubbish at something for a change, which strikes a nerve (not a good 
one). 
After lunch, they go to their first Care of Magical Creatures class, 
which they discover they have with the Slytherins.  None of them have 
been able to open their books, so Hagrid demonstrates--'Ye've got ter 
*stroke* 'em.'  Malfoy comments, in his usual charming way, about how 
silly they've all been. 
Hagrid gets the magical creatures, which turn out to be Hippogriffs.  
He tells the class how to treat them, which Malfoy ignores.  Harry 
volunteers to be the first to handle the hippogriff, names Buckbeak.  
He does well; Buckbeak bows and allows Harry to pat him.  Hagrid says 
that Harry's ready to ride him.  (Not really what Harry had in mind, 
but...)  They fly once around the paddock and land.  The rest of the 
class then is allowed to approach the Hippogriffs.  Malfoy, Crabbe, 
and Goyle take over Buckbeak. He has just bowed to Malfoy, who then 
violates the Hippogriff code of ethics (never insult them) and is 
injured.  Hagrid rushes Malfoy to the hospital wing.  
After supper Harry, Hermione, and Ron decide to go see Hagrid, who is 
rather in his cups when they arrive.  He is rather morose and the 
troika reassure him that they'll talk to Dumbledore and tell him that 
Malfoy wasn't paying attention.  Hagrid sticks his head in the water 
barrel after Hermione tells him he's had enough to drink.  He sobers 
up and seems to see Harry for the first time.  He pulls him to the 
door by his arm and takes the three back up to the castle.   




From linman6868 at aol.com  Mon May 14 23:50:14 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:50:14 -0000
Subject: Euphamisms for Voldemort (was Re: Dumbledore's use of names)
In-Reply-To: <001401c0dcca$eb85e8a0$0101a8c0@hp>
Message-ID: <9dpqvm+f35j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18743

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" <natabat at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:

> > It seems to me that Barty Crouch Sr. once uttered the name 
Voldemort,
> > but I can't find the reference now. During the PEnsieve scene, he
> > always refers to "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named."

> In the scene where he comes stumbling out of the Forbidden Forest 
insane, he
> refers to Voldy as  "the Dark Lord." Later, when Harry is trying to
> reporting the incident to Dumbledore, he says Crouch 
said "something about
> Voldemort getting stronger. ..."
> 
> Which, in light of recent speculation, is quite interesting. 
Perhaps he was
> so used to hearing Jr. refer to Voldy that way that he picked it up 
himself.

And possibly, "The Dark Lord" is a name that no one is inclined to 
give Voldy unless they've actually met him, whether as supporter or 
as opponent.  Most wizards seem to have successfully avoided direct 
contact with Voldemort, and are therefore content with the not-very-
concrete appellation of "You-Know-Who."  Who knows, even BC Senior 
may not have met Voldemort until that night Voldy showed up on his 
doorstep with a bouquet of flowers and an Imperius Curse.

Lisa, who is apparently not the only Lisa here (quelle surprise!), 
and is not sure how to differentiate herself; gonna have to find a 
good sig.

> "A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original 
dimension."
> - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Does it then get stretch marks?  :)




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Mon May 14 23:50:44 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:50:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dobby
References: <9dpq0t+6d3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002701c0dcd0$b67e1b40$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18744

I am studying for my history final tomorrow (Modern and Contempoary US History) and came upon a very interesting tidbit while reviewing my notes on McCarthyism, which i somehow overlooked before.

in 1970, a young lawyer named Doris Brin Walker was elected the first female president of the National Lawyers Guild, a leftist group.  She had trouble over the years finding jobs because of her leftist activities and support of unions, and ended up being fired from her position as a label clerk at a plant for Cutter Labs in Berkley, due to her attempt to organize a union.
Her nickname:  Dobby.

hmmm.. <g>  I saw that nickname and started frantically reading.  I think there's a whole section of the Bartle Library that wants me strangled now ;-).  I know the odds of JKR having encountered a reference to Ms. Walker is rather slim, but then again, she has so many puns and references in HP that I would not at all be surprised.

Abbie, who is heading back to her all-nighter, hoping there'll be more fun HP tidbits to relieve the boredom.
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Mon May 14 23:55:37 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:55:37 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
Message-ID: <9dpr9p+dstv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18745

Chapter 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe"

Malfoy turns up again halfway through double Potions on Thursday 
morning.  Because of his "injury", Harry and Ron have to cut his 
daisy roots and skin his shrivelfig for his Shrinking Solution.  
Malfoy lets Harry and Ron know that Lucius isn't happy about what 
happened with the Hippogriff.  Neville is having his own problems.  
His solution is orange, not the bright, acid green it should be.  
Snape tells him that at the end of class, he'll feed some of the 
potion to Trevor.  Neville enlists Hermione's help.  In the meantime, 
Seamus tells Harry that Sirius Black has been sighted 'not too far 
from here' but he got away.  Malfoy listens intently, then tries to 
goad Harry into going after Black himself.  At the end of the lesson, 
Snape walks over to Neville, feeds Trevor a few drops of the potion, 
which, thanks to Hermione's help, shrinks him to a tadpole.  Once 
he's back to a toad, Snape takes five points from Gryffindow because 
Hermione helped Neville.  
As they exit the dungeon, Hermione disappears.  She reappears and 
covers up for where she was. 
Their first Defense against the Dark Arts class is a practical one.  
They follow Remus down the corridor and around the corner where they 
encounter Peeves stuffing the keyhole of the broom closet with gum.  
Peeves, upon seeing Remus, sings a rude song.  Very calmly, Remus 
tells Peeves that with gum in the keyhole, Filch won't be able to get 
to his brooms.  Peeves blows a raspberry.  Sighing, Remus takes out 
his wand, holds it at shoulder height, says 'Waddiwasi" and points 
the wand at Peeves.  The gum shoots out of the keyhole and up 
Peeves's left nostril.  Remus earns respect. 
They go into the staff room where Snape is alone.  As he leaves, he 
makes a wisecrack about Neville being hopeless.  Remus assures Snape 
that he's got a task for the class and he's sure Neville will perform 
his part admirably.  Class begins.  Their task is to get rid of a 
boggart.  After preliminaries, Remus lines the class up (Neville 
first) and lets them face the boggart one by one.  Neville's greatest 
fear is Snape and he puts him in his grandmother's clothes.  They 
each take a turn but Remus doesn't let Harry tackle it.  

QUESTIONS

1.  Why was Remus on the train?

2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get near?  

3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get near?

4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced as 
    the new DADA teacher?

6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with Snape 
    and Dumbledore as well)

9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
    werewolf)? 

Sorry, I couldn't think of a 10th one.  Care of Magical Creatures 
summary will be up later. 





From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Tue May 15 00:08:08 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 00:08:08 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wordplay in HP
Message-ID: <F152wlD524YsIC3HC410000501b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18746

>From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wordplay in HP
>Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:27:57 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> >
> > *sigh*
> >
> > Well, I just added it to Strictly British. And I don't think I'll
> > take it back off, since "tripe" was already on there, so it fits
> > naturally. But I, solidly Midwestern American that I am, have never
> > heard of the word "tripe" used that way. That dictionary might very
> > well be including a meaning more commonly used in Britain. It's
> > not a specifically American dictionary, despite the title.
>
>No, Briticisms are marked as "Chiefly British" in the dictionary,
>and this is not the case for "tripe".  Moreover, Merriam-Webster
>Online concurs.  They mark Briticisms with "British" or "Chiefly
>British"--the former is used for "kerb", the latter is used for
>"lift" meaning elevator.  "Tripe" is not marked as such.
>
>Rest assured, on the East Coast, we are familiar with tripe in both
>its meanings.  It is most definitely not British only and doesn't
>belong in the Strictly British section.

I'd also add that I've not only heard it used (fairly frequently, I had a 
creative writing teacher who refered to my fantasy writing as tripe, I hated 
it at the time, but looking back he was quite right!) as a negative 
descriptor of junk, but I've EATEN it and my grandma threatens to make it 
every once in a while, along with boiled okra- apparently my dad's two least 
favorite foods. She's lived in central Texas her whole life. (Falls County 
now (near Waco) and she grew up in Rosebud, TX...)


Cait and corgis, who met a famous relative corgi yesterday.

>
>....Craig
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Tue May 15 00:14:34 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 00:14:34 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] TR's training - historical notes on AD, CF, LM - Latin
Message-ID: <F107ItMcx4vvsGOkevW00004f4d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18747

>Amy Z's sig said:
>
>------------------------------------------------
>  [The Crup] closely resembles a Jack Russell
>  terrier except for the forked tail.
>       -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
>------------------------------------------------
>

Oh my. I hadn't gotten FB because I'm short on cash, but now I may have to 
buy it as a present for the captain of my flyball club, who runs 2 JRTs....

Is this one still available from amazon.com and whatnot? Anyone know?

Cait, with a birthday approaching...

_________________________________________________________________
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From Zarleycat at aol.com  Tue May 15 00:26:25 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 00:26:25 -0000
Subject: Question: Re items conjured from wands.
In-Reply-To: <9dobr7+2hae@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dpt3h+l9sd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18748

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> I have wondered for a while now how the more senior wizards are 
able 
> to conjure things from their wands.  Eg, Professor McGonagall 
> producing food and drink at the beginning of CoS, Dumbledore 
> conjuring up sleeping bags in PoA, Lupin and Snape producing ropes 
> which tie up their opponents, and to a lesser extent, the judges in 
> the tournament drawing figures.
> 
> What kind of magic is this?  It seems to be similar to Harry 
> conjuring a patronus, although this is less tangible and doesn't 
last 
> for long, and perhaps also has similarities with the Dark Mark.  
> Therefore, I was thinking that they when tangible items are 
conjured, 
> they are done so by means of a kind of summoning charm, which 
> requires strength of mind, as one is conjuring a type of thing one 
> needs, rather than a specific, existing item.  Does this make sense?
> It seems to me that the wand is being used as an extension of self -
> something is needed, and therefore they only have to think about it 
> for the wand to make it a reality.
> 
> My other question is, how is this taught, and what kind of magic 
does 
> it fall under?  It isn't specifically a charm, as it isn't 
bewitching 
> a specific item.  When is it taught at Hogwarts?  Or is it the same 
> thing as Hermione being able to light a fire?
> 
> Catherine


I also posed a conjuring question several months ago, Catherine.  I 
think you and I are on the same page regarding this form of magic. 
I'd like to know how it's done, too.  Is it just force of 
will/concentration that enables people to perform this?  If you are 
not a very powerful witch or wizard, will your attempt to conjure up 
a chair somehow get messed up and you end up with a ladder?  

 It seems that conjuring is used at points in time where someone 
needs a particular item immediately - Dumbledore and the sleeping 
bags, Sirius conjuring up manacles to put on Pettigrew in the 
Shrieking Shack, Snape conjuring stretchers to take Sirius, Harry and 
Hermione to the castle after their encounter with the Dementors 
towards the end of PoA.  It evidently is not something you can do 
simply to make your life easier - Remus can't conjure up new clothes, 
the Weasleys can't alleviate their economic status by conjuring up a 
new house, clothes, etc.

Marianne




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Tue May 15 01:23:51 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 01:23:51 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dpr9p+dstv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dq0f7+4fvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18749

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> Chapter 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe"
 

> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

I can think of two possibilities.  One, Dumbledore asked Remus to 
travel to Hogwarts via train because he was worried about the 
possibility of Dementors boarding the train.  As Remus was the only 
new member of the staff who had to get there from a distance, why not 
travel by train? 

The other thought I had was perhaps this was a day after a full moon, 
since Remus is so obviously exhausted on the journey.  Perhaps 
apparating from wherever he was living to the gates of Hogwarts would 
have been too much of a strain.

> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get 
near?  
Memories of her bad experiences from CoS.
 
> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get 
near?

Neville was obviously bothered, but I'm not sure at this point 
whether the Dementor brought out a reaction derived from Neville's 
past, or if he was suffering from the typical Dementor reaction - 
cold, unhappy, etc.  
 
> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

Not nearly enough, in my opinion.  Too bad Buckbeak didn't rip 
his...wait, I'll stop now before the Draco-ites come after me with 
wands raised.  I think he obviously milked his injury for all it was 
worth, not only to gain sympathy, but to cause trouble for anyone he 
could.  After all, Hagrid is half-giant, which Daddy Malfoy does not 
like. Someone like that should not have been promoted to a teaching 
position, let alone teaching pure blood wizards.  
> 
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced 
as the new DADA teacher?

Ummm.  He was an unknown, not famous like Lockhart?  He doesn't have 
the most dynamic appearance?  The students were busy thinking about 
other things, such as the Dementors?
> 
> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

If someone in a position of authority relentlessly belittled me, I'd 
probably be afraid, too.

> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

Perhaps she feels that since she was muggle-born, she has to do 
everything in her power to learn as much as she can.  And, since she 
is a bright student, she feels she can carry it off.  Her teachers 
agree with that assessment.  After all, McGonagal gives her the time-
turner.  

> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with Snape
>     and Dumbledore as well)
> 
I didn't pick that up at all the first 2 times I read the book.  
Maybe this is a method to reinforce a certain formality about Lupin.  
He seems to me to be someone who almost always maintains a great deal 
of self-control.  He's never portrayed as raising his voice, his 
dealings with the students are quietly effective, and, even in the 
Shrieking Shack, he's not the one raising his voice - everyone else 
is carrying on at high decibels.

> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
>     werewolf)? 

We'll see.  I hope JKR will let us see Remus and Sirius combining to 
perform some sort of wonderful feats of magic in the upcoming battle 
against V.  And I would like to see Remus lose control in some way - 
I'm sure there is a volcano of emotion under that calm exterior.  


> Sorry, I couldn't think of a 10th one.  Care of Magical Creatures 
> summary will be up later.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue May 15 01:36:42 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 01:36:42 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dpr9p+dstv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dq17a+65c6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18750

Nice summary - even though I skimmed a bit because I know PoA pretty 
much backwards and forwards :-)  
> 
> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

Not sure - a combination of poverty and plot development, I guess.
> 
> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get near?

I thought that scene was interesting, especially because of Ginny.  I 
imagine that she was experiencing being in the grasps of Tom Riddle.  
> 
> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get 
near?

He didn't seem to have as bad a reaction as did Harry and Ginny, so 
I'm not sure.  I'd like to know more about him, like how much he knows 
about his own parents.  I wonder if they are as mysterious to Neville 
as Harry's parents are to Harry.  In that way, Harry and Neville have 
quite a bit in common.  It's odd, to me, that Neville seems to be 
terrified of so many things, like Snape, but doesn't fall apart at the 
arrival of the Dementors.

> 
> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

Oh puh-lease!  What a sniveling little faker!  He was cut no worse 
than when I occasionally cut myself shaving my legs!
> 
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced as 
>     the new DADA teacher?

His appearance, perhaps?  He certainly doesn't look impressive.  
> 
> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

Now that's a good question.  It's a bit annoying to me that Neville is 
so terrified of Snape... but I think Snape symbolizes everything 
Neville is not.  Neville is quite sensitive, and is always nice to his 
friends and teachers too, as there is no evidence to the contrary.  
Snape probably looks like the embodiment of what put Neville's parents 
in St. Mungo's.  I'm sure really young children run screaming from 
Snape all the time - and Neville is not the most mature boy in 
Gryffindor.
> 
> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

I think Hermione honestly thought she could handle it.  She wanted to 
take advantage of the education she's been offered, and wanted to 
prove to herself, her parents (?) and the school that she could do it.  
All that hand waving during class ain't for nothin'.
> 
> 
> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
>     werewolf)? 

I adore Remus Lupin.  He goes with JKR's theme of things not always 
being what they appear to be.  Lockhart looked great with all those 
new robes and white teeth, but he was a hopeless narcissist of a 
teacher.  Lupin, OTOH, is shabby, poor and greying, yet he is the best 
DADA teacher Harry and his friends have had.  Lupin is calm, 
thoughtful, perceptive, and clearly quite intelligent.  He is also 
brave, as he is one of the few people to say Voldie's name out loud.  
I think there's a lot more to him, and we'll be seeing that in OoP.  I 
can't wait!

--jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks her new 10" unicorn hai




From margdean at erols.com  Tue May 15 01:08:42 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:08:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
References: <9dq17a+65c6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B00819A.8AFDF5AB@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18751

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
> 

> > 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?
> 
> Oh puh-lease!  What a sniveling little faker!  He was cut no worse
> than when I occasionally cut myself shaving my legs!

Granted that Malfoy is a sniveling little faker, but we =are=
talking about getting struck at by the equivalent of a bird of
prey the size of a horse.  I'd be prepared to believe it was a
pretty nasty slash that bled a lot, but as they say, "only a
flesh wound."  And he =did= ask for it.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From joym999 at aol.com  Tue May 15 02:04:40 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 02:04:40 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2
Message-ID: <9dq2ro+ed7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18752

Well, the poems are trickling in rather slowly, so I am thinking of 
extending the deadline for at least a few days, maybe a whole week 
since I am kind of busy.  Would more time give more people the 
incentive to write some poetry?

Incidently, the poems I have received so far are all very good and I 
think you will all enjoy them.  I was expecting horrible haikus and 
lousy limericks, like the ones I wrote, but so far only the real 
poets have responded.  Please, people, write some vile verse and save 
me from the fate of being the only bad poet on HP4GU!

--Joywitch




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 15 03:32:58 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 03:32:58 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dpr9p+dstv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dq81a+4cul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18753

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote: 
> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

Protection for Harry and the other students from Sirius Black and 
also the Dementors. Black was thought to be the murderer of James and 
Lily Potter plus others.  Not to mention Black had been heard to 
mention something like 'he is at Hogwarts' (sorry, no book 
available). Dumbledore isn't going to take any chances with Black 
loose and the Dementors around.

> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get near?

I would guess her ordeal involving Tom Riddle.  Not an experience she 
would want to remember.

> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get 
near?

Not sure. I tend to think he remembers events surrounding his parents 
torture, sort of like how Harry remembers his parents final moments. 
I know there is nothing in the books that say Neville was present 
during his parents torture. This is just speculation on my part.
  
 
> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

There did seem to be a bit of bleeding so I am sure the original 
wound was fairly bad. But, I think he healed much quicker than he let 
on!

> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced 
as 
>     the new DADA teacher?

Probably just a matter of no one knowing who he was.  Just another 
teacher.  I'm sure the shabby robes didn't help any either.
 
> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

I think there is more to Neville and Snape than just Snape being a 
mean teacher.  Something we just don't know yet.
 
> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

No clue.

 
> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with 
Snape 
>     and Dumbledore as well)

Hadn't really thought about it. Sorry.  

> 
> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
>     werewolf)? 

I'm sure he is brave and trustworthy.  Someone Dumbledore will be 
able to depend on.  

Koinonia




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Tue May 15 04:07:31 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 04:07:31 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dpr9p+dstv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dqa23+flrg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18754

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> Chapter 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" QUESTIONS

Nice summaries Parker. Glad you could do the Remus section <g> and 
good questions don't worry that there aren't 10.

> 
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

   I think he was on the train for 2 reasons. The first reason is 
that it was the full moon the night before(in JKR's world)so Remus is 
extremely drained. That's why he is so tired and looks ill. It would 
probably be too hard for him to travel any other way. The second 
reason I think he's on the train is that Dumbledore asked him to. 
Dumbledore knows the Dementors are looking for Sirius and they may 
even try to board the train. He wants Remus on the train to "get rid" 
of the dementors and help the students.
> 
> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get 
near?  

  Ginny is probably reliving her experiences during CoS with Tom 
Riddle. That's my guess.
> 
> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get 
near?
 
  Neville may be seeing his parents in St. Mungos or his grandmother.


> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?
   I think he was badly cut but not life threatening. He definately   
milked it for all it was worth.
> 
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced 
as the new DADA teacher?

    I think it has to do with his appearance. His robes are ragged 
and he looks very ill.  Most everyone isn't sure what to make of him.
> 
> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

    Snape probably reminds him of his overbearing grandmother.

> 
> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

      Maybe becuase being raised as a muggle she feels she's behind 
everyone else who was raised in the wizarding world. I thinks she 
feels she needs to "catch" up. Although it may just be something 
simple like she's an overachiever.


> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with 
Snape and Dumbledore as well)

     She refers to all the professors by their last names unless they 
are speaking to one another or to another character like Sirius or 
Rosemerta. I think she does that to establish some sense of formality.

> 
> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
>     werewolf)? 
> 
     Yes I think there is more than meets the with regard to Remus. 
He's very mysterious and we don't really learn much about him in PoA. 
I'm thinking that he's a very powerful wizard and may have a few 
special powers(like Dumbledore maybe). But then I guess we'll have to 
wait for OoP.

Cheers,

       Kristin

**********************************************************************
Sirius grinned. "I'll have you know my friend Remus here has been 
quite a hit with the veelas back where we come from."  -DS13

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/All_Things_Potter
**********************************************************************




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue May 15 08:31:03 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:31:03 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dpr9p+dstv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dqpg7+kkdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18755

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:

> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?
> 
Too tired to fly by broom (does he even own a broom) and unable to 
apparate (to a place near Hogwarts, obviously) either because he 
hasn't a licence (could there be restrictions on apparition by 
werewolves?) or because it too requires more exertion than possible in 
his state.

> Sorry, I couldn't think of a 10th one.  Care of Magical Creatures 
> summary will be up later.

How about this...
10. Why did Neville tell Malfoy that Potter had passed out when the 
dementors came onto the train?

Florence




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue May 15 08:41:21 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:41:21 -0000
Subject: TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid History
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0931@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9dqq3h+6753@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18756

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
> I take the 50 years to be an "approximate" 
figure.
> I believe the Chamber of Secrets was opened slightly more than 50 
years
> before HP finds it; that is, in 1941 or '42 (possibly even earlier),
> allowing Tom to finish up school and find Grindelwald before 
Dumbledore
> defeated him in 1945. After Grindy's demise, presumably, Tom went on 
a
> quest.... Okay, a dark quest, but still a quest. 
> 

I don't think this can be true because in GoF Frank Bryce has come 
back from the war and seemingly worked for the Riddles for some time 
(from the villagers comments) before the Riddles are killed.  Now 
assuming he was injured near the start of the war and worked about 4 
years as gardener before the Riddles murders then the Riddles were 
killed around 1944.  I think V got his dark arts knowledge mainly from 
the restricted section of the library and his own original mind (he 
was after all a brilliant student).

Florence 




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Tue May 15 09:34:53 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:34:53 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7 Neville.
In-Reply-To: <9dq81a+4cul@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dqt7t+n0l2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18757

> > 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get 
> near?
> 
> Not sure. I tend to think he remembers events surrounding his 
parents 
> torture, sort of like how Harry remembers his parents final 
moments. 
> I know there is nothing in the books that say Neville was present 
> during his parents torture. This is just speculation on my part.
>   
 It was discussed on the UHPFC's now dead message board that it 
seemed to be fairly likely that Neville had had a strong memory charm 
on him causing his forgetfulness (in a similar way to Bertha Jorkins 
after Crouch Snr had messed with her mind). To me this seems quite 
likely and also make me think that what Neville sees are fleeting 
memories of his parents being tortured when faced by the dementors, 
even worse it's possible that Neville himself may have been tortured 
making a strong memory charm more necessary.

 Posing the question: Can dementors break through memory charms?

 However of course this is all speculation although the extenuating 
circumstance do seem to be fairly supportive of the memory charm idea.

 Jen





From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May 15 10:39:51 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 06:39:51 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
Message-ID: <84.15dcd1b7.28326177@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18758

In a message dated 5/14/2001 10:25:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moragt at hotmail.com writes:


> Wouldn't he have picked up Harry as well, then?

I think Harry was the priority. Once he was secured at the Dursley's, then 
Dumbledore, McGonagall, and perhaps Hagrid could have returned to the Potter 
residence to wrap up loose ends. Someone would have had to go back at some 
point. I mean, you can't just leave two dead bodies in the middle of a 
destroyed home, especially if they had Muggle neighbors. 

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May 15 10:48:28 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 06:48:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Use of names
Message-ID: <49.b650d44.2832637c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18759

In a message dated 5/14/2001 12:10:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:


> It's a key plot issue, though, because we don't learn Lupin's first 
> name until Sirius uses it near the end of PA (ch 18).  We already know 
> at that point that he's a werewolf.  I wondered whether JKR was 
> withholding his first name because she thought it would clue us in too 
> quickly to his secret.  

I had my suspicions because of his *last* name, not his first. As soon as 
they met him on the train, and they learned his name was Lupin, a light bulb 
went off. Same to with Sirius Black and the reference to the Grim. (Sirius 
Black - black dog) It just fit so well. I didn't have it entirely figured 
out, though. I thought at first that it was metaphorical.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May 15 10:51:32 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 06:51:32 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Use of names
Message-ID: <97.154480c3.28326434@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18760

In a message dated 5/14/2001 12:10:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:


> David, what did you mean by Dobby's inexpert grasp of names?
> 

"Harry must not lose his Weezy!"

LOL!
Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May 15 10:57:12 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 06:57:12 EDT
Subject: Tripe
Message-ID: <37.14f851d7.28326588@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18761

In a message dated 5/14/2001 12:32:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
vderark at bccs.org writes:


> But I, solidly Midwestern American that I am, have never 
> heard of the word "tripe" used that way. 

I'm from Ohio, about as Midwestern as you get, and I've heard both of these 
definitions of tripe. As a matter of fact, I remember a few times the word 
getting me into trouble. Once was for insulting my mother's cooking, and once 
was for insulting a classmate's poetry.  (Ok, so I wasn't always polite as a 
child <G>)

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Tue May 15 11:16:35 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:16:35 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
Message-ID: <a3.15d288bc.28326a13@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18762

In a message dated 5/14/2001 9:53:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
margdean at erols.com writes:


> Granted that Malfoy is a sniveling little faker, but we =are=
> talking about getting struck at by the equivalent of a bird of
> prey the size of a horse.  I'd be prepared to believe it was a
> pretty nasty slash that bled a lot, but as they say, "only a
> flesh wound."  And he =did= ask for it.

But isn't the school nurse a Witch? I mean, if she can give Harry a new set 
of bones in his arm overnight, surely she could have healed Malfoy's wound 
just as quickly. I seriously doubt the need for the sling he wore. 

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue May 15 11:22:30 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:22:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity Cloak
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F9C@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18763

But hagrid told dmbldor that he'd gotten harry out. Fore the muggles swarmed
around, which suggests that Dumblebore never went to Godric's hollow that
night/day
--------------------------
Please reply to htandy at carltonfields.com

Confidential:  This e-mail may contain a communication protected by the
attorney-client privilege.  If you do not expect such a communication from
Heidi Howard Tandy, please delete this message without reading it or any
attachment, and then notify htandy at carltonfields.com of this inadvertent
mis-delivery. Thank you.


-----Original Message-----
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com <dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue May 15 06:39:51 2001
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Q about Harry's (and James's) invisiblity
Cloak

Real-To:  dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com

In a message dated 5/14/2001 10:25:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moragt at hotmail.com writes:


> Wouldn't he have picked up Harry as well, then?

I think Harry was the priority. Once he was secured at the Dursley's, then 
Dumbledore, McGonagall, and perhaps Hagrid could have returned to the Potter

residence to wrap up loose ends. Someone would have had to go back at some 
point. I mean, you can't just leave two dead bodies in the middle of a 
destroyed home, especially if they had Muggle neighbors. 

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue May 15 11:24:43 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:24:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8F9D@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18764

We actually don't know how easily muscles, cartialige and tissue rgrow, and
since draci injured those, not bone...
--------------------------
Please reply to htandy at carltonfields.com

Confidential:  This e-mail may contain a communication protected by the
attorney-client privilege.  If you do not expect such a communication from
Heidi Howard Tandy, please delete this message without reading it or any
attachment, and then notify htandy at carltonfields.com of this inadvertent
mis-delivery. Thank you.


-----Original Message-----
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com <dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue May 15 07:16:35 2001
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7

Real-To:  dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com

In a message dated 5/14/2001 9:53:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
margdean at erols.com writes:


> Granted that Malfoy is a sniveling little faker, but we =are=
> talking about getting struck at by the equivalent of a bird of
> prey the size of a horse.  I'd be prepared to believe it was a
> pretty nasty slash that bled a lot, but as they say, "only a
> flesh wound."  And he =did= ask for it.

But isn't the school nurse a Witch? I mean, if she can give Harry a new set 
of bones in his arm overnight, surely she could have healed Malfoy's wound 
just as quickly. I seriously doubt the need for the sling he wore. 

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May 15 11:59:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:59:30 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?  
In-Reply-To: <F200d6QR7j1HaKtKufV00006bfb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dr5n2+vg62@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18765

Ebony wrote:

> Perhaps I'm just not seeing the problem with giftedness.  

I have to run and don't have time to hunt up Jim's post, but I don't 
think it claimed Harry needed to be average or that he wasn't gifted. 
 The whole objection to Uberharry (on which I can and will deliver an 
eloquent and longwinded dissertation when I get the time) doesn't 
rest on the claim that he isn't gifted.  Of course he is!--as you say, 
he's not at all average in his flying/Quidditch talent, in his 
"emotional intelligence," etc.  The real question is whether he is 
Everyman or Other.  I plump for the former and I hope and believe JKR 
will also.

Amy Z

P.S.  Frodo is not at all average either.  He has extraordinary 
integrity and courage.  But he's still Everyman.  JMHO.

P.P.S.  I actually think the real issue is more about the concept of 
destiny than anything else.  I don't believe in destiny, I don't 
find it an interesting concept, and I wonder if a search would turn 
the word up anywhere in the four books.  But no time now.  I shall 
return . . . 




From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Tue May 15 12:06:25 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen Dei)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:06:25 +0200
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?
References: <9dosgb+jrrm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004001c0dd38$63eda680$ea6c74d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 18766

Well, well.  I find it interesting that the two who took exception to my reflection on "Expecto Patronus" are both men.  Now that might just be sheer coincidence, but it might have something to do with the much deeper question.  I don't take the books lightly.  She is not a bubble-headed woman, as anyone knows who reads some of the interviews.  She has suffered, and it has dug caverns into her soul.  She has a real theme/message or "philosophy" behind what she is doing/writing. 

So let us take the bull by the horns.  Sorry, but I cannot accept the translation of exhaling, vomiting, breathing, etc.  Would she go looking for the most esoteric Latin word she can find?  All of them are easily understood by an adult and to many of her young readers.  Remember, she is committed to keeping this within the grasp of children, even while she thrusts spears of her counter-culture ethos at her adult audience.  "expectorare" is a nice piece of Latin, but does it reflect the theme of the books?  My position is that she is always working within a --to me rather obvious-- framework of themes.  And foremost is Harry's longing for a family.  Harry sitting hours before the Mirror of desire... is that not yearning?  Harry already knowing who it is that is going to emerge from Voldemort's wand: the one of whom he had thought more than any one else.  The patronus emerging from his wand, the murdered father, pater, emerging from Voldemort's wand.

The picture of Harry running pell-mell through the dark forest (a forest filled with dementors) because he is consumed with the desire to see his father...is that not yearning?  That little boy running through the forest is her portrait (and no, I don't think I am putting ideas into her mind) of contemporary western civilization: desperately seeking its father.  Freud killed the father for us.  50% of our children growing up without their fathers in their home.  My own brother spent six years teaching for that purpose alone: there are too many little boys who don't have a male figure in their lives.  And JKR is herself facing the challenge of raising her child without the father present.  She is crushing some of our most cherished culture icons: one being the new "vision" of a family/fatherless society, among many others.  She was a teacher, she remains a teacher.  One has almost invoked the patronus charm on reporters who dared to come between her and the children.  But above a mother.  Another culture icon shattered: she placed a young mother at the heart of the book.  One who gave her life for her child...

My computer Webster's tells me this

pa.tron \"p?-tr?n, for 6 also pa-"tr?n\ noun [ME, fr. MF, fr. ML & L; ML patronus patron saint, patron of a benefice, pattern, fr. L, defender, fr. patr-, pater] (14c)

Yes, patron is derived from patronus, but that in turn springs from pater...  And that makes sense when you contemplate all four books at once.  No, I don't think I am being merely poetical.  There are too many children who write to me, telling me what the site means...  These kids are hurting; and they know why.



Uh, right now we are having some technical difficulties with the site...trying to go over to flash.  So please wait a day or two before going there.  Thank you.  Oh, I love a good discussion.  So glad it is really out there!  Hope no one's toes are the worse for it....

Lumen Dei
Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop  -- "Have Wand, Will Wave"
www.geocities.com/lumen_dei


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:10 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Latin (was boggart)


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morag Traynor" <moragt at h...> wrote:
  > <snip wonderful analysis of Expecto patronum and HP theme>
  > Thanks for that!  So much more interesting than I thought expecto
  > patronum  was - I should have known, from "Et expecto
  > resurrectionem mortuorum..." from the Latin creed.

  Personally, I think it's a bit overboard as analyses go.

  "Exspectare" (the "s" was there classically) is not just "expect",
  it's true--in fact, its breadth covers "to await", "to expect
  something that is to come or to take place", "to be waiting for",
  "to look for with hope, fear, desire, expectation", "to hope for,
  long for, expect, desire"; "to fear, dread, anticipate, apprehend".
  [Lewis & Short]

  But it's probably too poetic to transform "expecto patronum" into
  "I yearn for a father", unless we wish to believe that all "patronus"
  spells cast are psychologically bound to such a yearning or lack.
  I think that "protector", "defender", or "advocate" are all adequate
  translations, that don't add more baggage than intended.

  ....Craig


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From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue May 15 12:57:42 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:57:42 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dpr9p+dstv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dr946+dd5s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18767

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

Lots of thoughts abound on this one:

a) He's known to be of modest means, possibly even to the point of 
being destitute. Maybe he can't afford a broomstick.

b) He may have eschewed broomstick riding altogether since he's a 
werewolf. How terrible mightn't it be for him to be in the middle of 
the ride across the sky when the moon comes out?
> 
> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get 
near?  

Probably Tom Riddle/Voldemort succeeding and killing her family, her 
friends, and of course, Harry.
> 
> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get 
near?
> 
My guess: he fears being exposed as a squib rather than a real 
wizard, and laughed out of Hogwarts, thus being the shame of his 
family [which has already suffered great travail].

> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

Badly enough to account for how long he was gone, and for Madame 
Pomfrey to work her magic on him.  She can re-knit bones, shrink 
teeth, banish boils, blisters, warts, and re-grow bones. I don't 
think Malfoy's injury was beyond her abilities under the 
circumstances.  I believe he was just playing for sympathy.
> 
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced 
as the new DADA teacher?

Malfoy's clique thought him some shabby nobody.
The rest of the teaching staff probably had their reservations given 
the history of the previous few DADA teachers.

Quirrell was a Voldemort-host.
Lockhart was a quack.
Lupin's a werewolf -- which is a viable reason to be concerned. 
> 
> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

Neville is a nervous kid to begin with.  Slytherin has the reputation 
of being a house full of cunning, sneaky people, as well as the house 
that has produced the most dark wizards.  Snape is leader of the 
house, does *not* get on his students for their bullying or teasing, 
and seems to make Neville a preferred target.  I'd be scared of Snape 
too if Neville's shoes.  

In my own shoes, I'd have told him off and probably turned into a 
little brown mouse right before Snape told Malfoy to summon a snake.
> 
> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

Overachiever syndrome.  Plus, she's probably already memorised most 
of the material in the other classes since she had been reading ahead 
since before her admission to Hogwarts. 

> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with 
Snape   and Dumbledore as well)

That one I always wondered about too. I thought it was a distinct 
indication of a character's feelings for the person they were 
referring to [since Harry calls Dumbledore and Lupin _Professor_ 
Dumbledore and Lupin; and in Dumbledore's case, adds 'sir']. But 
other teachers do the last-name thing as well.
> 
> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
>     werewolf)? 
> 
[avoids Transformers reference, however punny and apropos] I'm 
inclined to think so. He knows his magic, for certain.  And Pomfrey 
believes in his knowledge. She said that there was "finally" someone 
who "knows his remedies!" when she learned he had foisted chocolate 
upon the kids who were shaken up by the Dementors. 


Indigo
Who has made it through 8 rounds of Quidditch Practice. Man, those 
Weasley Twins must have arms like tree trunks! 




From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue May 15 13:02:33 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:02:33 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dq0f7+4fvg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dr9d9+f9r9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18768

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > Chapter 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe"
>  
Forgive me, I can't resist! 
> 
> > QUESTIONS
> > 
> > 1.  Why was Remus on the train?
> 
> I can think of two possibilities.  One, Dumbledore asked Remus to 
> travel to Hogwarts via train because he was worried about the 
> possibility of Dementors boarding the train.  As Remus was the only 
> new member of the staff who had to get there from a distance, why 
not 
> travel by train? 


Good thought! I hadn't considered that one! 
> 
> The other thought I had was perhaps this was a day after a full 
moon, 
> since Remus is so obviously exhausted on the journey.  Perhaps 
> apparating from wherever he was living to the gates of Hogwarts 
would 
> have been too much of a strain.

Cue Hermione:

"You can't apparate onto or out of Hogwarts! Hasn't anyone read 
Hogwarts: A History?"

Thank you, Hermione. 
> 
> > 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get 
> near?  
> Memories of her bad experiences from CoS.
>  
Agreed.

> > 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get 
> near?
> 
> Neville was obviously bothered, but I'm not sure at this point 
> whether the Dementor brought out a reaction derived from Neville's 
> past, or if he was suffering from the typical Dementor reaction - 
> cold, unhappy, etc.  

If he knows what exactly happened to his parents, he may see that -- 
the horror and torment they suffered before their minds went. 
>  
> > 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?
> 
> Not nearly enough, in my opinion.  Too bad Buckbeak didn't rip 
> his...wait, I'll stop now before the Draco-ites come after me with 
> wands raised.  I think he obviously milked his injury for all it 
was 
> worth, not only to gain sympathy, but to cause trouble for anyone 
he 
> could.  After all, Hagrid is half-giant, which Daddy Malfoy does 
not 
> like. Someone like that should not have been promoted to a teaching 
> position, let alone teaching pure blood wizards.  
> > 
> > 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced 
> as the new DADA teacher?
> 
> Ummm.  He was an unknown, not famous like Lockhart?  He doesn't 
have 
> the most dynamic appearance?  The students were busy thinking about 
> other things, such as the Dementors?
> > 
> > 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?
> 
> If someone in a position of authority relentlessly belittled me, 
I'd 
> probably be afraid, too.
> 
> > 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those 
classes?
> 
> Perhaps she feels that since she was muggle-born, she has to do 
> everything in her power to learn as much as she can.  And, since 
she 
> is a bright student, she feels she can carry it off.  Her teachers 
> agree with that assessment.  After all, McGonagal gives her the 
time-
> turner.  
> 
Also agreed. 

> > 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with 
Snape
> >     and Dumbledore as well)
> > 
> I didn't pick that up at all the first 2 times I read the book.  
> Maybe this is a method to reinforce a certain formality about 
Lupin.  
> He seems to me to be someone who almost always maintains a great 
deal 
> of self-control.  He's never portrayed as raising his voice, his 
> dealings with the students are quietly effective, and, even in the 
> Shrieking Shack, he's not the one raising his voice - everyone else 
> is carrying on at high decibels.
> 
> > 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
> >     werewolf)? 
> 
> We'll see.  I hope JKR will let us see Remus and Sirius combining 
to 
> perform some sort of wonderful feats of magic in the upcoming 
battle 
> against V.  And I would like to see Remus lose control in some way -
 





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 15 13:12:53 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:12:53 -0000
Subject: Boggart with a Green Dress (filk)
Message-ID: <9dra0l+nrcv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18769

Boggart In A Green Dress/Don't Enter, Dementor! (PoA, Chapter 7)

(To the tune of Devil in a Blue Dress & Good Golly, Miss Molly!

http://www.nicenlive.com/kitchen/ )

Dedicated to Amanda Lewanski

(The Scene: The Staffroom. LUPIN is about to demonstrate the correct 
way to dispose of a boggart. He beckons to NEVILLE, who steps 
nervously forward.  As the song begins, the wardrobe door swings open 
to reveal the boggart in the form of SNAPE).

LUPIN
Fee, fee, fi, fi, fo-fo, fum
Watch the wardrobe now, here it comes
Boggarts assume the most fright'nin' shape
Neville sees it changin' to Severus Snape
But it won't look so slick to us
After we raise our wands and shout
.

LUPIN & NEVILLE
			         

"Riddikulus!"

(The BOGGART is suddenly draped in the robes of Grandmother 
Longbottom)

LUPIN, NEVILLE, & BOGGART
Boggart with the green dress, green dress on , 
Boggart with a green dress on,
Boggart with the green dress green dress on

LUPIN & NEVILLE
Grandma Boggart, get you gone!

(The Boggart successively assumes the form of a Mummy, a banshee, a 
rat, a disembodied hand, a silvery orb, etc., during the following, 
as each student steps forward to cast the Riddikulus spell upon it.)

LUPIN		
Force `em to a form that will make you snort
And all a boggart's terrors will be caught up short 
If the mummy's curse is your greatest fear 
Make it trip on its bandage and fall on its rear
Whether a banshee, or a rat
Jus' make it look comical, it's gone in nothing flat

LUPIN & STUDENTS
Boggart under great stress, great stress, great stress, 
Boggart under stress' a pawn
Boggart cannot impress, distress, possess
Boggart, better get you gone!

(HARRY withdraws from the group, as frightful images of Dementors 
flood his mind)

HARRY 
Don't enter, Dementor!
Your hands are decayed
Don't enter, Dementor!
You make me afraid
Don't enter, Dementor!
I have no blockade
While you're glidin' and slidin'
Flat on the floor I'll be laid
`Twas an evil, evil moment in my early, early days
I hear my mama screamin' in a flash of green haze
Don't enter, Dementor!
You are too extreme
While you're floatin' and gloatin'
I can hear my mama scream

(The Boggart explodes at the end of the lesson. As the Gryffindor 
students exit the classroom, NEVILLE relives his rare triumph)

NEVILLE
Fee, fee, fi, fi, fo-fo, faim
We opened the door, there it came
With a fox-fur scarf and bag to match
In my grandma's gown with a vulture on her hat

STUDENTS (except HARRY)
Our lesson plan was meticulous
We knew to wave our wands and shout "Riddikulus!"
Boggart with the green dress, green dress on 
Boggart with the green dress on
Boggart with the green dress, green dress, green dress,
Grandma Boggart, get you gone!


(Exit all)

- CMC 





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 15 13:15:43 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:15:43 -0000
Subject: Use of names
In-Reply-To: <9dp6un+suja@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dra5v+o4o7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18770

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Milz wrote:
> 
> >Going by really strict (Emily 
> > Post, Letitia Baldridge, Amy Vanderbuilt type) etiquette, an 
adult 
> > can address another adult by his given name if they are close 
> > acquaintances. Children must address adults as Mr, Miss, etc.
 

Amy Z wrote: 
> I hope they've updated this to Ms.  Making assumptions about 
someone's 
> marital status is rude in a whole other way . . . and I for one 
don't 
> like my marital status to be a part of my name even when the 
speaker 
> does know it.  This blew my students' minds, who could not absorb 
the 
> idea that I was married but still expected to be called Ms.


I am married and expect to be called Mrs. Paul, not Ms.  I would also 
prefer to be called Miss Paul if someone is in doubt.  Then I will 
inform them that I am married and they may call me by my first name 
or *Mrs*.  Just my personal preferance. I never call teachers or 
doctors by their first name unless requested to do so.  I believe in 
courtesy and respect when addressing people.  I don't allow kids to 
call me by my first name nor do I let my kids call any other adult by 
their first name. I still say 'yes ma'am' and 'yes sir'.  Common 
courtesy.    

Dumbledore seems to call most of the adults by their first name, 
including Karkaroff and Fudge.  Snape on the other hand, shows 
respect to Dumbledore and to McGonagall when addressing them. Now, 
what Snape is really saying under his breath I have no idea ;)

Koinonia

  




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 15 13:26:02 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:26:02 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dq0f7+4fvg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9drapa+gm13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18771

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:

> > Chapter 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe"
>  
> 
.  And I would like to see Remus lose control in some way - 
> I'm sure there is a volcano of emotion under that calm exterior.  

Well, he pretty much lost total control in Chapter 20, after 
transforming back into a wolf.

Simply because Lupin is in danger each month of losing control of 
himself, I hope he will be able to stay in control during the non-
full moon days.

   - CMC




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue May 15 14:14:43 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:14:43 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?
In-Reply-To: <004001c0dd38$63eda680$ea6c74d5@PoorClares>
Message-ID: <9drdkj+72if@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18772

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lumen Dei" <lumen_dei at f...> wrote:
> Well, well.  I find it interesting that the two who took exception 
to my reflection on "Expecto Patronus" are both men...


Whoa. Okay, deep breath...

1) I do not take exception to your reflection at all. I loved it. 
There are many ways to interpret the books, which is why we all love 
them so. They're deeper than most books. I enjoy and appreciate many 
people's reflections on anything Harry Potter.

2) "are both men..." This has honestly made as close to angry as 
anything on this list has ever done. Those who have read my postings 
over the months and years know that I keep a pretty cool head. I do 
not mind stating my opinion and certainly don't mind being disagreed 
with. I agreed that my "expectorare" was not as good a choice for the 
Latin root for "expecto" and even changed my Lexicon entry to reflect 
my new understanding. I am always willing to learn. But to imply that 
the reason I don't think that JKR is intentionally making a social 
statement in her choice of a particular spell incantation is because 
I'm a man is wrong and is offensive. I can deconstruct with the best 
of them and I am perfectly capable of reaching non-sexist, unbiased 
conclusions about things like this. I'm a songwriter, for pity's 
sake, so I can certainly see the more poetic side of things in life, 
even though I'm a man. I certainly would never suggest that you went 
the poetic route because you're female. That would be equally as 
offensive.

Okay, another deep breath.

I am removing myself from this discussion - sadly, because I was 
enjoying it quite a bit - but I think for the best. I have better 
ways to spend my time.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From deeblite at home.com  Tue May 15 14:28:25 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:28:25 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid History
In-Reply-To: <9dqq3h+6753@eGroups.com>
References: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0931@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010515102657.0264c8e0@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18773

At 08:41 AM 5/15/01 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
> > I take the 50 years to be an "approximate"
>figure.
> > I believe the Chamber of Secrets was opened slightly more than 50
>years
> > before HP finds it; that is, in 1941 or '42 (possibly even earlier),
> > allowing Tom to finish up school and find Grindelwald before
>Dumbledore
> > defeated him in 1945. After Grindy's demise, presumably, Tom went on
>a
> > quest.... Okay, a dark quest, but still a quest.
> >
>
>I don't think this can be true because in GoF Frank Bryce has come
>back from the war and seemingly worked for the Riddles for some time
>(from the villagers comments) before the Riddles are killed.  Now
>assuming he was injured near the start of the war and worked about 4
>years as gardener before the Riddles murders then the Riddles were
>killed around 1944.  I think V got his dark arts knowledge mainly from
>the restricted section of the library and his own original mind (he
>was after all a brilliant student).


I want to add that it's entirely possible that at the time, the restricted 
section of the library WASN'T restricted.  It's bringing about the creation 
of the worst dark wizard in history would be enough reason to make it 
restricted, though, no?




From dorband at uwp.edu  Tue May 15 15:38:58 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:38:58 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?
In-Reply-To: <9drdkj+72if@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9driii+upq6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18774

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lumen Dei" <lumen_dei at f...> wrote:
> > Well, well.  I find it interesting that the two who took exception 
> to my reflection on "Expecto Patronus" are both men...


I kind of expected/hoped  that this remark would be addressed...

> 
> 
> Whoa. Okay, deep breath...

> 2) "are both men..." This has honestly made as close to angry as 
> anything on this list has ever done. Those who have read my postings 
> over the months and years know that I keep a pretty cool head. I do 
> not mind stating my opinion and certainly don't mind being disagreed 
> with... But to imply that the reason I don't think that JKR is 
>intentionally making a social  statement in her choice of a 
>particular spell incantation is because  I'm a man is wrong and is 
>offensive. I can deconstruct with the best  of them and I am 
>perfectly capable of reaching non-sexist, unbiased  conclusions about 
>things like this. 


And Steve responded wonderfully.  You're right, Steve; we who have 
read your posts (and your Lexicon) know that you are as genuine in 
your pursuit of HP knowledge as anyone here; we appreciate your 
insight and original thoughts, as well as your dogged determination to 
"get it right" and even your patience with JKR when she doesn't (get 
it right, that is <g>).  

 
> I am removing myself from this discussion - sadly, because I was 
> enjoying it quite a bit - but I think for the best. I have better 
> ways to spend my time.
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon


It's not my place to call for a concilliatory post from Lumen Dai, but 
I think it wouldn't do any harm...Lumen?  

Brian (who is uncomfortable with gender-based angst, from either 
gender)





From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu  Tue May 15 16:11:07 2001
From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:11:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?
In-Reply-To: <004001c0dd38$63eda680$ea6c74d5@PoorClares>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0105151136040.9899-100000@er2.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18775

On Tue, 15 May 2001, Lumen Dei wrote:

> Well, well.? I find it interesting that the two who took exception to my
> reflection on "Expecto Patronus" are both men.? Now that might just be
> sheer coincidence, but it might have something to do with the much deeper
> question.? I don't take the books lightly.? She is not a bubble-headed
> woman, as anyone knows who reads some of the interviews.? She has
> suffered, and it has dug caverns into her soul.? She has a real
> theme/message or "philosophy" behind what she is doing/writing.

I do hope you're not implying that men in general or Steve and Craig, to
whom I take it you are referring, take either the HP books or JKR
herself lightly, as that's what it seems to me that paragraph is saying.  
That's not only an unwarranted ad homines attack, but it's also patently
untrue, as any glance through this group's postings will show.  Steve,
who maintains the Lexicon, as much as anyone takes the books seriously,
but many of our posters making detailed, well-reasoned arguments about
the books are men.  Why you should turn here to an accusation of
sexism/gender bias absolutely baffles me.  I do believe that gender/sex
is implicated in most, if not all, aspects of life, but it does not
follow that gender is a determining factor any time someone disagrees
with you or your reasoning.

Resorting to biographical criticism ("JKR has suffered"), Freudian
interpretation, and word etymologies to defend a point (Harry is looking
for a father) that otherwise I agree with doesn't impress me, for one,
much at all.  Latin roots are very significant in HP, particularly in
the spells, of course, but they are just that, *roots*.  You can't use
etymology to obtain 'one true meaning' of a word of group of words;
that's not how language works.  And 'yearn for' is not at all the base
meaning of 'ex(s)pecto', but rather it is the obvious 'expect, await'
that is the root meaning.  (I'm repeating many things that Craig has
already said, lest it be thought that only men could disagree with this
type of reading.)  'Long for' is a Latin extension that you won't find
until far along in the definition.  And while 'patronus' does indeed
come from the patr root, the obvious cognates with English or the Latin
meanings of 'protector, defender' seem to me to take precedence over any
etymological connection with 'father', except in perhaps again an
extended sense specifically for Harry.  I find it very difficult to
believe that the ultimate message of the novels is that we're all on
some psychoanalytic quest for a father.  Perhaps JKR intended that we
think 'father' when reading 'patronus', perhaps not.  I find authorial
intention a pointless question that is not only unanswerable but
ultimately not the way to approach any text.  Not to be all New Critical
about it, but the best way to analyze a text is to start with the text
before throwing other things, be they Lacan or Latin, at it.  Close
reading is (almost) always the most convincing argument.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue May 15 16:16:47 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:16:47 -0500
Subject: NETIQUETTE Reminder
Message-ID: <3B01566F.A4FF2375@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18776

Hi everyone --

Since Flying Ford Anglia hasn't yet appeared in his hairnet from a cloud
of blue smoke ....

I want to remind everyone to keep your posts courteous & friendly.  Our
intent is to be a very friendly group at all times!

Conclusory & unfounded accusations of bias, prejudice and the like are
inflammatory and unnecessary.  It is perfectly easy to get your point
across without resorting to that sort of language.  It isn't a good
thing if members feel attacked and feel the need to remove themselves
from conversations.

I hope everyone will take a moment & review the Netiquette document in
the Files area:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Thanks!!

Penny
The Mod Squad





From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue May 15 16:37:36 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:37:36 -0400
Subject: PoA 5/6/7 discussion qu's
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC094B@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18777

> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?
> 
This has been answered pretty well, I think. It is the night after a full
moon (JKR shifted this back one night from the real calendar) and he's weak,
and there's the question of whether he knows how to Apparate (or is allowed
to), since he also leaves by carriage at the end of the book, and of course
providing protection from either Sirius or the Dementors should they turn
up. 

But does anyone wonder whether he's really asleep the _whole_ time? I'm not
sure but I think he could possibly have woken up at points, enough to
realize there were children in the compartment, and if he realized Harry was
there... Wouldn't it be great to think he took advantage of being "asleep"
to observe Harry without the kids knowing he's aware of them? He doesn't
want Harry to know his connection to James--he's startled when Harry brings
it up in Lupin's office. So it's not like he could "wake up" and ask Harry
all kinds of questions about how he's getting on. I think he sleeps for a
major portion of the journey, but he's aware that there are kids in the
compartment with him--and especially Harry.


> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get near?  

Her experience with Tom is easily the worst thing I could imagine for Ginny.
Others have concluded this too. I think the things she might focus on are
the things she did through the diary's influence, like killing the roosters,
etc. I think it affected her a great deal, in ways we will see later.

> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get near?
> 
This is a difficult question. I disagree with others who've said that
Neville relives his parents' torture. I don't think he was aware/present,
even though he could have been as old as 3 or 4 when it happened. I think
Neville's family tries to make his life as "normal" as it can be, given the
circumstances, so I don't think he feels any particular trauma about his
parents from the dementors specifically. However, certainly the _thought_
that his parents are insane and unable to recognize him is depressing, so
I'm sure it factors in. Also thoughts about particularly bad Potions lessons
(Snape again), getting scared by well-meaning but aged relatives, and his
constant trouble remembering things, are also all depressing experiences.
Depressing, but not traumatic like Harry's, if you understand what I mean.

> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?
> 
I agree with Margaret, who said the initial injury was probably a bad flesh
wound, not life-threatening, certainly, but one that required medical
attention and was probably pretty painful. [Personally I believe Draco has a
low treshold of pain, never having had a hand laid on him in his life. Not
withstanding, when I think about how much cat scratches can hurt, Buckbeak's
bite should have been an order of magnitude or more worse.] Had the bleeding
not been stopped and the wound cleaned well, it might have had the potential
for infection or a host of other complications, but since Madame Pomfrey was
consulted immediately, it's clear that the injury was healed properly.
Though I still say the little snot deserved it for not listening, it can't
be denied that hippogriffs are not cuddly teddy bears. I mean, he's
crunching bones up in GoF--this is not a tame creature.

> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced as 
>     the new DADA teacher?
> 
Others have mentioned his shabby and ill appearance, but I'm going to add
something here: by now, most of the students have seen this drill before.
Every year, a new DADA teacher. Though we can't be sure about how long
Quirrell was there (presumably more than Harry's first year, from Percy's
and the twins' comments), it seems the stuff of legend by this point that
Hogwarts can't seem to keep hold of a DADA teacher for more than a year.
Especially following Lockhart's performance the previous term, the students
are bound to be getting a bit skeptical. I perceive the reaction as one of
caution: "Let's reserve judgment until we see whether this one lasts." The
same motivation guides the reaction to Mad-Eye Moody in GoF, though there is
also a much more marked repulsion factor given Moody's dubious and scary
appearance (uglier than Snape!).

> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?
> 
Ah. Well, we've had a lot of discussions about Snape and Neville, haven't
we? Okay, I think Neville's used to a more indulgent homelife. As I said
above, I don't think his family means to traumatize him with bouncing him
down the garden path and all. Actually, I think all his elderly relatives
try to create as "normal" and "happy" a homelife as they can, though being
out of touch with today's generation and having a somewhat odd sense of
humour (Algie, anyway), it's unclear that they succeed. Neville's a very
lonely and reserved kid, but I don't think it's because he lives in fear or
because he can't get past the reality of what happened to his parents. I
think someone like Snape, who is snarky and mean and takes himself way too
seriously, is not someone Neville's ever had experience dealing with. I get
the impression he's very sheltered, somehow, and Snape represents an aspect
of people that Neville just has no capacity to deal with. He does all right,
considering, and for the most part seems to ignore Snape's jeers and just
keeps plugging away. He obviously passes somehow, though clearly not with
stellar marks. So I think he's terrified of Snape because Snape's brand of
authority is anethema to Neville's picture of what an authority figure is.
By extension, Lupin's suggestion to dress Snape in Neville's grandmother's
vulture hat and red handbag is perfect. It not only presents an inherently
comical picture, but it reminds Neville that there are things about Snape
which are laughable.

> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?
> 
Well, the overachiever angle has been covered, as has the "getting the most
out of one's education," and I think these are both important aspects of
Hermione's character. It's actually in CoS that she signs up for all the
classes. Remember, this is the same girl who "memorized" all her textbooks
before even setting foot inside Hogwarts. JKR mentioned somewhere that
Hermione uses book learning to compensate for some self-esteem problems,
feelings of inadequacy, etc., and I think it's nowhere as clear as in
Hermione's compulsion to learn everything. To her credit, she realizes by
the end of the year that she simply can't overload that way, and doesn't
need to, and drops back down to a heavy schedule, but one that compromises
in a few areas.


> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with Snape 
>     and Dumbledore as well)
> 

I think it's twofold: where characters call him "Lupin" or "Professor
Lupin," it's both plot and character motivated--that is, plot-wise she
doesn't want "Remus" revealed too soon to keep the werewolf connotation
hidden, and character-wise there are lovely theories about Snape using
"Lupin" to maintain distance between them, while Lupin uses "Severus" to
communicate that he's both not afraid of Snape and willing to forgive and
forget. However, where JKR uses "Lupin" in the narration, as with
"Dumbledore," "Fudge," "Snape," etc., I think it's simply narrative
shorthand. It's simply easier to write using only the last name. As an
author of fanfic, it becomes cumbersome to try to remember to add the
honorifics all the time.

> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
>     werewolf)? 
> 

Emphatically, yes. Remus is one of the strongest, most positive role models
we've met so far. He faces constant threats in his life, not the least of
which is the prejudice of being a werewolf and with it the threat that he
will not be able to provide for himself. In addition, I believe his very
kindness and self-control are a by-product of the iron grip he keeps on the
inner wolf at all times. There is the constant pain of feeling the beast ebb
and flow within him as the moon wanes and waxes, and yet he perseveres
despite all these obstacles, and does so with good grace. The most emotional
reaction he has (IMO) is in the Shrieking Shack, when Hermione reveals his
condition and Ron wards him off brusquely afterward. Ron's cry stops Lupin
dead and it takes "obvious effort" for him to turn away and talk to
Hermione. I interpret this to mean that, not only does it pain him to have
to admit what he is, he is both angered and ashamed by Ron's outburst. Only
through that firm sense of self-control is he able to let it go for the
moment and try to deal rationally with the situation, through Hermione.
Lupin has enormous strength of character.

In addition, we shouldn't discount Pomfrey's opinion of him. "So we've
finally got a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher who knows his remedies?"
(Ch. 5) All Lupin's lessons give the students the practical exposure that
Lockhart's lessons didn't (except the pixies), and Lupin's teaching style
seems to extend from his own direct experience. I'd say he definitely made
his way by ridding homes of boggarts and such in the past. And I wouldn't
put it past him to have encountered a vampire or two along the way, either!

Gwendolyn Grace,
Who despite having said some disparaging things about Draco, Neville, and
Snape in this post, still thinks they're all great characters.




From editor at texas.net  Tue May 15 17:19:18 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:19:18 -0000
Subject: For those of you in the San Antonio area
Message-ID: <9droem+h6f7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18778

This is Amanda from work (!); I hope I did this right (new & 
unfamiliar email setup).

The Warner Brothers store in San Antonio has put the trailer into the 
repeating loop of what plays on the big screen in their store. It's 
about an hour-and-fifteen-minute loop, but hanging about the Warner 
Brothers store is fun. I imagine other WB stores would have it in 
their loops now, then, too, eh?

Also, all the merchandise is now 40% off. And they still have a good 
bit of stuff.

--Amanda




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue May 15 17:27:35 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:27:35 -0000
Subject: tidbits: fighting dragons, toads
Message-ID: <9drou7+1177c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18779

Just a couple of things that struck me recently as I work on my own 
personal annotated Harry Potter (you should see my margins!):

1 - When Harry was trying to outfly the Hungarian Horntail, she 
wouldn't rise up and leave her eggs unprotected. What made her 
finally take flight after him? 

   Harry rose a few more feet, and she let out a roar of
   exasperation. He was like a fly to her, a fly she was 
   longing to swat; her tail thrashed again, but he was too high 
   to reach now...She shot fire into the air, which he
   dodged...Her jaws opened wide...

   "Come on," Harry hissed, swerving tantalizingly above her, 
   "come on, come and get me...up you get now..."

   And then she reared, spreading her great, black, leathery 
   wings at last, as wide as those of a small airplane - and 
   Harry dived...

So what happened? Why did she finally decide to come up into the air? 
My guess is that it's the same reason that Nagini obeys Voldemort and 
the same reason that the Basilisk obeyed Tom Riddle and Salazar 
Slytherin...and the same reason that the snake obeyed Harry at the 
Dueling Club. That hissing Harry was doing was Parseltongue, although 
he probably didn't even realize it. He ORDERED her into the air and 
she obeyed. After all, when Harry was looking at the image of a snake 
on the taps in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, he felt that he could only 
speak Parseltongue when faced with a real snake, and the Horntail 
look to Harry, just a few second before, like a snake weaving before 
a charmer.

2 - Doesn't it just figure that Neville would have a toad? It's just 
so "Neville," just like it's so "Ron" to support a Quidditch team 
that perpetually loses. Here's what Hagrid says about toads in Diagon 
Alley:

   "Tell yeh what, I'll get yer animal. Not a toad, toads went 
   outta fashion years ago, yeh'd be laughed at - an' I don' 
   like cats, they make me sneeze..."

And of course, Neville's well-meaning but not very current Great 
Uncle Algie gets him...a toad. 

Note also that Hagrid doesn't like cats. JKR has stated that she 
doesn't like them either.

Back into the research...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which just doesn't even have ROOM for all the cool stuff in here!
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From manchisco at yahoo.com  Tue May 15 18:17:31 2001
From: manchisco at yahoo.com (Mags)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:17:31 -0000
Subject: A Poem
Message-ID: <9drrrr+9ui7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18780

Well seeing as you asked for poetry, here's my first attempt at a HP 
poem.  It's on FanFiction.net under my username 'Magenta'.

I step into the whitewashed room
She goes on staring straight ahead.
She's crouching quietly in a corner
I sit down, trembling, on the bed.

'Mum?' I whisper, heart still pounding.
She frowns as she looks up at me.
Her eyes are fixed upon my face now
But I know she doesn't see.

Her skin is pale, a deathly white.
She hasn't been outside for years.
I see the bite marks on her arms.
I fight hard to hold back my tears.

I want to scream.  Why can't she smile?
And hold me like a mother should?
I want to hug her, say I love her
But I know that it's no good.

She's bored with me, she turns away.
What she's thinking, I can't know.
Then I hear a voice behind me;
'Come on Neville, time to go.'

Thanks for reading!
Mags xx




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue May 15 18:22:58 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:22:58 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7 Question 10
In-Reply-To: <9dqpg7+kkdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9drs62+qv5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18781

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:

> How about this...
> 10. Why did Neville tell Malfoy that Potter had passed out when the 
> dementors came onto the train?

	I think Neville told everyone within hearing when he got off the 
train, not just Malfoy. He was probably scared to the point of 
babbling, the way he is in GoF after he's seen "Moody" demonstrate the 
Cruciatus curse.

Pippin





From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue May 15 18:36:18 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:36:18 -0400
Subject: Framing Frank (Was TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid Hist ory)
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC094E@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 18782

> 
>    Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:41:21 -0000
>    From: "Florence" <fgcjnk at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid History
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
> > I take the 50 years to be an "approximate" 
> figure.
> > I believe the Chamber of Secrets was opened slightly more than 50 
> years
> > before HP finds it; that is, in 1941 or '42 (possibly even earlier),
> > allowing Tom to finish up school and find Grindelwald before 
> Dumbledore
> > defeated him in 1945. After Grindy's demise, presumably, 
> Tom went on 
> a
> > quest.... Okay, a dark quest, but still a quest. 
> > 
> 
> I don't think this can be true because in GoF Frank Bryce has come 
> back from the war and seemingly worked for the Riddles for some time 
> (from the villagers comments) before the Riddles are killed.  Now 
> assuming he was injured near the start of the war and worked about 4 
> years as gardener before the Riddles murders then the Riddles were 
> killed around 1944.  I think V got his dark arts knowledge 
> mainly from 
> the restricted section of the library and his own original mind (he 
> was after all a brilliant student).
> 
> Florence 
> 
In GoF Ch. 1 (US), it says, "Frank had come back from the war with a very
stiff leg and a great dislike of crowds and loud noises, and had been
working for the Riddles ever since."

It gives no indication how long. When they talk about Frank's history, it's
clear that he grew up in Little Hangleton, too, so much of what they have to
say may go back further than his time as a soldier. It's possible, as you
say, that he could have had four or even five years' service with the
Riddles and it still be '43, if he was injured very early. In short, I don't
think the timing rules out the possibility of the chamber having been opened
earlier. Tom could also have killed the Riddles _before_ graduating
Hogwarts. So the 50 years can still be taken either as an approximate date
or an absolute.

The timing looks something like this:

If CoS really opened 50 years previous, then 1942 (or '43, but for the sake
of argument we'll use '42). Tom is in 5th year, so b. 1927 (Hagrid 1929). If
he murdered his father after graduating, then that occurred in 1944, exactly
50 years before GoF. Given this timeline, Frank had a _maximum_ tenure of 6
years with the Riddles and Tom had a _maximum_ amount of time to study with
Grindy of 1 year. However, the murders could still have occurred anytime
after 1942 (Tom committing them before graduating, but after opening CoS).

CoS 51 years ago: 1941, Frank has _max_ of 5 years as gardener and Tom has
_max_ of 2 years with Grindy. If Tom killed them the summer after the CoS,
then Frank had max of only 3 years' service.

CoS 52 years ago: 1940, Frank has between 2 and 4 years' service (depending
on timing of injuries and murders); Tom has _max_ of 3 years with Grindy. 

Because we don't know exactly when the murders occurred in relation to Tom's
age, there's a lot of wiggle room.

However, I will further modify my theory to state that the Tom could also
have opened the chamber years earlier, graduated, gone to Europe, and
returned without anyone knowing it to kill the Riddles, then gone back to
Europe to delve deeper after Grindlewald's capture/defeat. It's not as neat
a timeline, owing to the relative age of Tom and Tom Sr., but it depends
heavily on what the Little Hangletons consider "young" when describing Tom
Sr. Tom Jr. could still look like a teen depending on what age retarding
spells he's using. How's that for muddying the waters?

Gwendolyn Grace
Who really has to get some paid work done today....



From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue May 15 19:59:44 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:59:44 -0000
Subject: Framing Frank (Was TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid Hist ory)
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC094E@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9ds1rg+jhg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18783


> In GoF Ch. 1 (US), it says, "Frank had come back from the war with a 
very
> stiff leg and a great dislike of crowds and loud noises, and had 
been
> working for the Riddles ever since."
> 

Okay,  the "ever since" here doesn't necessarily imply a long period. 
 But what about what follows:
"Always thought he was odd...Unfriendly like. I'm sure if I've offered 
him a cuppa once, I've offered it a hundred times.  Never wanted to 
mix, he didn't"
"Ah now," said a woman at the bar, "he had a hard war, Frank, he likes 
the quiet life.  That's no reason to -"

The second comment here disputes the first statement that he 
was ALWAYS odd and implies he was okay(ish) before the war.  So the 
first speaker must have had hndreds of opportunities to offer him a 
cuppa since he returned.  Also I think the second statement would be 
different if he was very recently back from the war - more along the 
lines of "Ah, now.. he's not long back from the war and not over it 
yet - needs some quiet"

Then later:
"I always thought he had a nasty look about him, right enough" grunted 
a man...
"War turned him funny, if you ask me" said the landlord.

Here again the landlord implies that he was ok(ish) before the war.  
He must have been back for some time for people to notice that the war 
had turned him funny (People would have made allowances in the 
immediate aftermath)

For the record, the first batch of british casulties came in May/June 
1940 - he'd then hve been transported home and demobbed say summer 
1940.  I still doubt that the Riddle murders occurred before about 
1944 although I do accept the evidence is open to interpretation.

Oh.. just noticed on the first page of GoF: "Every version of the 
tale, however, started in the same place: fifty years before, at 
daybreak ...and a maid had entered the drawing room to find all three 
Riddles dead."  This fifty years sounds a little more precise than the 
CoS fifty years to me, although it could still be rounded.  Definitely 
puts the murders at about 1944 though.

Florence






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 15 20:05:46 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:05:46 -0000
Subject: Suspended Our Words (filk)
Message-ID: <9ds26q+cif6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18784

Author's Note: Something I just recently noticed is that Draco's 
sidekicks Crabbe and Goyle, though they are variously described as 
sniggering, grinning, laughing, rubbing their knuckles, chuckling 
trollishly, chortling, etc., etc, have no dialogue assigned to them 
at all in the entire series.  They are occasionally observed to be 
speaking with Draco, but the content of these colloquies is withheld 
from the reader.  The only time the speech of "Crabbe" and "Goyle" is 
recorded is in CoS, when they are being impersonated via Polyjuice by 
Harry and Ron. 

So how might the "real" Crabbe and Goyle feel about this? 

Suspended Our Words

(To the tune of The End of the World)

The SCENE: Slytherin Common Room. Enter VINCENT CRABBE and GREGORY 
GOYLE

BOTH
Why don't we get any quote marks?
Why don't our quips get set down?
JKR has suspended our words
We don't get to use verbs and nouns

Why do we two only chortle?
Why don't we discourse or chat?
JKR has suspended our words
She will not let us chew the fat.

GOYLE
My pal Vincent's a quite persuasive wonder
Of his wit and culture there can be no doubt

CRABBE
My friend Gregory's a font of hilarity
But his every wisecrack gets left out

BOTH
Why aren't we done by Jim Dale? 
Why doesn't Fry do our voice?
JKR has suspended our words
She will not give them any choice



- CMC






From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Mon May 14 01:10:07 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:10:07 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's weakness was Let's Get Back to Harry!
Message-ID: <aa.15692bc1.28308a6f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18785

In a message dated 4/24/01 3:28:54 AM Central Daylight Time, 
MMMfanfic at hotmail.com writes:


> > Hello Everyone!
> > 
> > I've been reading through the postings this week, and noticed that 
> > people aren't discussing Harry as much as I'd like.  I had some 
> > thoughts about Harry that I wanted to post, so here goes -
> Yeah, this is suppose to be Harry's week.  I've noticed that there's 
> more Snape related posts ...  Let's get back to Harry.
> 
> > People wrote a lot last week about Harry's strengths and talents, 
> but 
> > I was wondering about his weaknesses as well.  What are they?  What 
> > are the things about Harry that could really end up hurting him?
> 
> There are a few things in his character:
> 1. Procrastination
> We see that quite prominently in GoF.  Harry, like all teenagers (and 
> adults for that matter), does procrastinate.  It may end up hurting 
> him, academically or otherwise.  He does have the attitude of 'I will 
> find out when I need to know' when it comes to magical knowledge and  
> relies on Hermione over the years.
> 2. Insecure
> Harry has a low sense of self-esteem (But not as bad as Ron).  He 
> always thinks he's going to fail, he *knows* he's going to suck.  A 
> pessimist by nature.
> That's all I can think of for the moment. 
> 
> 
> 

I don't think the last was correct, because I think he feels that he has done 
something amazing before, and everyone expects him to do it again, and under 
circumstances no normal teenager could handle.
Joe


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From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May 15 01:36:42 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:36:42 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: snape;s boggart - was Dementors - Boggarts
Message-ID: <9d.15529261.2831e22a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18786

In a message dated 4/24/01 4:27:57 PM Central Daylight Time, 
hanbury at cbmi.upmc.edu writes:


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote: 
> > Boggarts aren't in FB. Are they Beings or Spirits? 
> 
> Neither are blast-ended skrewts.  This is an ommission that
> really bothered me.  They are definatly magical creatures as
> they were covered extensively in Hagrid's class.  

Good Observation but skrewts are hybrids, so they wouldn't be there, p. 438 
GoF, " Blast-Ended Skrewts," highly dangerous crosses between manticores and 
fire-crabs

i really don't know about boggats though
Joe                                                                           
                                                                              
   


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From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Tue May 15 01:58:05 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:58:05 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mecki Brings up good point...
Message-ID: <95.add0f6b.2831e72d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18787

In a message dated 4/25/01 4:29:42 PM Central Daylight Time, 
wr7238 at worldnet.att.net writes:


> Mecki brings up a really good point. If Voldemort can come back with the 
> remains of his father, why not anyone else with the remains of their 
> relatives? Especially all those on Voldemort's side? The Blood,Flesh, and 
> Bone spell seems to be a really nasty way of coming back but with all of 
> what we read in GoF, there is a really nasty time coming up anyway.
> 
> 

No spell can restore the dead, it was only because V was still somewhat alive 
that the spell worked, I don't know if it restores your soul, could it 
restore C jr., he is still alive...
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Mon May 14 00:53:34 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:53:34 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Laws
Message-ID: <ce.148f2219.2830868e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18788

In a message dated 4/23/01 8:38:48 PM Central Daylight Time, editor at texas.net 
writes:


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great thread. Got me thinking. :::delicately ignores groans echoing
> faintly from around the globe:::
> 
> Amber wrote:
> 
> > 3) Could anyone make a Potion, or can it only be made by people with
> > magic talent in them? After all, Potions is simply adding ingrediants
> > in the right order, the right way (or at least it seems that way to
> > me).
> 
> Well, that's the way cooking seems to me. And I'm passable, and I do the
> occasional really good thing. But I have no "feel" for cooking, I can't
> go into a kitchen and "invent" the way my husband can, can't look in the
> fridge or the spice cabinet and think, that'd go great with X here, and
> make a wonderful dish. My dad could. One of my friends can. Great chefs
> don't do anything else, they have to think about writing a recipe down.
> 
> So for Potions, yes, I think you must have a talent for it, and given
> the nature of the beast, it must be a magical talent. Harry and Ron can
> "cook." Hermione's a good cook. Snape's a chef.
> 
> > 4) What's the difference between an easy spell and a hard spell?
> > Clearly, with the Patronus spell, a force of will and ability to hold
> > a happy thought separated it from the easy spells. Is it always a
> > force of will?
> 
> Well, this is going to sound loopy. [I'm certain you all thought I was a
> paragon of sanity and stability up to this point.] I think part of what
> makes a spell difficult is the degree to which it imposes your will on
> the world. If imposing your will on the world includes imposing your
> will on another person, it's harder still. Unless I'm mistaken, this
> holds true for some new age magic philosophies, too--it's easier to
> "create" a parking space than to make yourself invisible to a cop as you
> speed by.
> 
> This is off the cuff, I could be totally out there. But with the
> patronus spell, you're not just imposing your will on another being, but
> actively opposing what that other being wants to do, *and* you have to
> fight the effects of that being at the same time by focusing postive
> thoughts. Jeez, no wonder it's hard.
> 
> As for what makes a Charm, my hazy idea has been blown by Wingardium
> Leviosa (unless, although Flitwick the Charms teacher taught the class,
> it was an "intro to magic" class). But here goes. Charms seem to fall
> into the category of spells worked on others. When people get charmed or
> enchanted in stories, it's a viewpoint thing, like a love charm.
> Frequently it's permanent. I had thought that Charms had to do with such
> things, and as they fall into the category of spells which impose your
> will on others, the students didn't start Charms until they'd learned
> some "standard" spells and thus the method of magic. You play scales on
> your flute, until you learn how the flute works.
> 
> I think the more you are trying to impose your will on the world, the
> more force of will is required, and learning that has to be by "feel,"
> the way high-blood-pressure patients can learn, when hooked up to a
> monitor, how to lower their blood pressure. It's nothing anyone can
> explain; it's something they have to do to learn. And I think the people
> who are "naturals" at the focusing, in addition to having a strong will,
> are the great wizards.
> 
> > 5) Why is the wand necessary for magic? Obviously, one can do magic
> > without it. Harry did before he found out he was chosen at Hogwarts
> > and so did Neville (remember, he bounced when his Uncle let go of him
> > out the window). So why do they need wands? Is it a way to help them
> > focus their magic? If so, then why don't the adults do magic without
> > their wands since they have supposedly learned to focus their magic?
> 
> I think this is exactly what wands do, focus and direct the magic (a la
> Christopher Stasheff's Her Majesty's Wizard, etc.). I think many adults
> can do it wandless. I've posted on wandless vs. "wanded" magic before. I
> think wandless magic is dangerous, because it is so diffuse and must be
> so powerful to work. All the "official" wandless magic we've seen is
> regulated--animagus spells and apparating. There's probably others
> (Dumbledore's "I don't need a cloak to be invisible" springs to mind).
> 
> However, most of the wandless magic we've seen has to do with the person
> casting it. Animagus spells and apparation are cast on oneself. Most of
> the things Harry did were to himself--growing his hair back, putting
> himself on the roof, etc. And the things he did to others were in
> self-defense.
> 
> Sooo, I hereby put out a theory that wandless magic can only be done
> with some connection to oneself. It requires a wand to direct magic at
> other things or people. Any thoughts? I just now thought of this and it
> sounds ingenious. <g>
> 
> 

 Nice Amanda-
But I think a magic without a wand is dangerous, and the wand seves as a 
focus and control,
Joe



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From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Tue May 15 20:40:03 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:40:03 -0000
Subject: OT: Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?
In-Reply-To: <004001c0dd38$63eda680$ea6c74d5@PoorClares>
Message-ID: <9ds473+a84k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18789

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lumen Dei" <lumen_dei at f...> wrote:
> Well, well.  I find it interesting that the two who took exception
> to my reflection on "Expecto Patronus" are both men.  Now that
> might just be sheer coincidence, but it might have something to do
> with the much deeper question.  I don't take the books lightly.
> She is not a bubble-headed woman, as anyone knows who reads some
> of the interviews.  She has suffered, and it has dug caverns into
> her soul.  She has a real theme/message or "philosophy" behind what
> she is doing/writing.

Ad nauseam.

Lumen, I take strong exception to your rather sexist remarks.

My comments were restricted to your interpretation of the Latin,
which I saw as generously poetic, from my experience with
Latin.  If you choose to see overtones of a universal cry for a
father-figure in the patronus spell, I certainly cannot stop you.

Nevertheless, your biased remarks accuse me and your other
interlocutor of a failure to see the proper depth in JKR's writing
and personality.  I would aver, that it is clear from our comments
in this forum that neither he nor I considers her writing to be
frothy, lightweight, or irrelevant in the least.  Were the contrary
true, I suspect that neither of us would bother wasting our time on
the subject.

A disagreement with your thoughts is not an attack on JKR nor her
work; and it seems to me that you need to learn to divorce your
interpretation of JKR's work and person from the reality thereof.

....Craig




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Sun May 13 21:21:47 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:21:47 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Let's Get Back to Harry!
Message-ID: <64.e0356f1.283054eb@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18790

In a message dated 4/23/01 3:43:30 PM Central Daylight Time, 
meboriqua at aol.com writes:


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Everyone!
> 
> I've been reading through the postings this week, and noticed that 
> people aren't discussing Harry as much as I'd like.  I had some 
> thoughts about Harry that I wanted to post, so here goes -
> 
> People wrote a lot last week about Harry's strengths and talents, but 
> I was wondering about his weaknesses as well.  What are they?  What 
> are the things about Harry that could really end up hurting him?
> 
> I also have speculations about some of the magic Harry will be using 
> in his coming years at Hogwarts.  I'm sure (once again) that this has 
> been discussed before, but I believe he'll learn how to be an animagus 
> like his father did.  What else might he be learning (and not from 
> classes).  So far, much of his magical "aids" were given to him as 
> gifts - the invisibility cloak the Marauders' Map, etc.  Will Harry 
> learn how to do something quite complicated on his own?
> 
> I've also heard rumors that Harry might get expelled from Hogwarts 
> (and obviously earn his way back in).  Can anyone see that actually 
> happening?  What would that be like?
> 
> Okay - I can't think of anything else just yet.  Any thoughts? 
> 
> 

I dunno 'bout Harry but people seem to think thaat DM will be expelled, an 
maybe go to Durmstrang. anyone hear anything lke this?
Joe



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Sun May 13 21:11:15 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:11:15 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ARGUS Filch
Message-ID: <6b.14488e47.28305273@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18791

In a message dated 4/23/01 1:23:38 PM Central Daylight Time, sdrk1 at yahoo.com 
writes:


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's something interesting:
> An Argus is a Greek monster with one hundred eyes.  
> 
> Hmmmmm...  Given the fact that people's names can revel things about 
> them, like Remus Lupin or Sirius Black....   Hmmm...  Opens up all 
> kinds of possibilities. 
> 
> Stephanie 
> 

Well,
Filch and Mrs. Norris (whom I would love to kick) seem to see all the trouble 
making going on around hogwarts soo...,
Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Mon May 14 01:06:12 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:06:12 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
Message-ID: <69.153682d3.28308984@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18792

In a message dated 4/24/01 12:32:33 AM Central Daylight Time, 
nera at rconnect.com writes:


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tommygirl618811 at a... wrote:
> > ::ponders as she blows her nose:: Urgh! Bloody allergies!! <g> 
> Anyway, Doreen 
> > had a point....she wrote:
> > It was my impression that the DE were not all that loyal. The 
> minute 
> > that Voldie was "defeated/weakened", they all tucked tail and ran 
> > back to the "other side" with excuses about being mesmerized or 
> such 
> > nonsense. Wormtail went into 12 years of hiding. The minute that 
> > Karakoff found out V was back, he lit out of Hogwarts like a 
> streak. 
> > I don't know how others measure loyalty, but I don't think I would 
> > want any of them watching my back. The only ones who remained loyal 
> > were named by V ... and that was a very few out of the group.
> > 
> > Well, that makes sense to me, but suppose that those who were named 
> might 
> > have been in Hufflepuff? Because Slytherins don't exactly seem the 
> type to 
> > stay with their 'master' for that long when he's pretty much dead. 
> They seem 
> > like they would move on to worship a better, (cooler! LOL) dark 
> wizard, and 
> > just abondon poor Voldie like that.....
> > ::Points wand at nose and mutters a few words...nose falls off::
> > <g>
> > Wicky
> *********************
> Hmmm... got me there. I didn't want to muck up the list with a short 
> answer like that, but I didn't want to just ignore your answer, 
> either. So, the ones who turned tail and returned to their non-Voldy 
> jobs were probably not loyal or Hufflepuffs. So, what else makes you 
> think that those who were loyal, such as the couple who are still in 
> Azkaban, were Hufflepuffs? Now you have me curious too.
> Doreen, who hates admitting she is wrong.
> *********************
> 


What house is Pettigrew (aka Wormtail) in????? JP & co would not have a 
Slytherin an a bf, if he is a Griffindor, what does that say about the 
Griffindors in genral.  Besides, this is highly unlikely and Pettigrew was 
not bright either, so... Hufflepuff???
Joe, full of q's with no a's






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue May 15 21:07:48 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:07:48 -0000
Subject: OT: Harry Game in Time Magazine Supplement
Message-ID: <9ds5r4+m3ck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18793

A thousand pardons for this post. I sincerely hope I don't get 
excommunicated from the list.

If you subscribe to Time Magazine, there is a supplement enclosed 
with it this week. It reviews the Harry Potter Video game. I only 
skimmed through the article, but it includes some of the graphics of 
the game: the exterior and interior of Hagrid's hut, a room in 
Hogwarts (a dungeon?), and a couple of others.

:-)Milz




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May 15 21:32:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:32:10 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?PA_Questions_=96_Dragontongue=3F_=96_TR_=96_Cloak_-_Names?=
Message-ID: <9ds78q+cihp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18794

Questions, of course, by Parker (great summaries and questions, 
Parker . . . I hope 10 isn't an official standard or something).

> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced
as the new DADA teacher?

Kristin wrote:

>    I think it has to do with his appearance. His robes are ragged
>and he looks very ill.  Most everyone isn't sure what to make of him.

His apparent frailty plus the well-known hazards of being the 
Hogwarts DADA professor must make a lot of them think, "This poor guy 
isn't going to last a week."  

Heidi wrote:

> We actually don't know how easily muscles, cartialige and tissue 
>rgrow, and since draci injured those, not bone...

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume 
that "Draci" was a typo and not an endearment!  <g>  We don't know 
how badly he was hurt, but give me a break?-months in a sling?  And 
conveniently getting all better right after the scheduled match with 
Gryffindor?  I think Madam P has no way short of Veritaserum of 
knowing whether a student is still in pain.  Draci says he is, so she 
keeps him in a sling.  Definitely a sniveling little faker.

Gwendolyn Grace wrote:

>Ron's cry stops Lupin dead and it takes "obvious effort" for him to 
>turn away and talk to Hermione. I interpret this to mean that, not 
only >does it pain him to have to admit what he is, he is both 
angered and >ashamed by Ron's outburst. Only through that firm sense 
of self-control >is he able to let it go for the moment and try to 
deal rationally with >the situation, through Hermione. Lupin has 
enormous strength of >character.

All year Lupin and the staff have kept the secret (even Hagrid! now 
that's impressive), and 5 seconds after his secret is out, his fears 
that students will hate and fear him if they know he's a werewolf are 
realized.  And this is the best friend of one of his favorite 
students to boot.  I imagine he's thinking, with Ron reacting this 
way, "what kind of reception would I get from the Slytherins if they 
knew `what I am' [to use the somewhat self-loathing phrase Lupin 
himself uses]?"

Others onlist have convinced me to go easy on Ron for this outburst, 
so I won't go there again.  

Steve wrote:

>So what happened? Why did she finally decide to come up into the 
air? 
>My guess is that it's the same reason that Nagini obeys Voldemort 
and 
>the same reason that the Basilisk obeyed Tom Riddle and Salazar 
>Slytherin...and the same reason that the snake obeyed Harry at the 
>Dueling Club. That hissing Harry was doing was Parseltongue, 
although 
>he probably didn't even realize it. He ORDERED her into the air and 
>she obeyed.

Ooh, great theory, and by all means put it in The Annotated HP (I'd 
like to pre-order my signed copy now, please), but I lean toward a 
simpler explanation.  "He was like a fly to her, a fly she was 
longing to swat"; he keeps teasing her until her irritation outweighs 
her desire to stay close to her eggs.  Get in a cat's personal space, 
say by passing your hand closer to her face than she likes, and watch 
the same thing happen; she'll just watch you irritably for awhile, 
then paw at you, then go for you with claws out.  BTW, my sense is 
that she didn't take flight; she just reared up.

Caius Marcius wrote:

> Perhaps Riddle had a sympathetic (or stupid) teacher who 
gave him similar permission.

Or sympathetic =and= stupid.

A couple of days ago, in the thread speculating about how Dumbledore 
came to have James's cloak, I said maybe Voldemort could see through 
them.  At the time I thought "why not?  Dumbledore can" but then I 
couldn't think why I thought that, so I didn't write it.  Now I 
remember.  He does see through it in CS, "Cornelius Fudge," when 
Harry and Ron are hiding in Hagrid's hut.

I hope Harry keeps that in mind if he's ever trying to hide from 
Voldemort using the cloak.  (Or Dumbledore!)

I wrote:

I wondered whether JKR was 
> withholding his first name because she thought it would clue us in 
too 
> quickly to his secret.  

Toby wrote:

>I had my suspicions because of his *last* name, not his first. As 
soon >as they met him on the train, and they learned his name was 
Lupin, a >light bulb went off. Same to with Sirius Black and the 
reference to the >Grim. (Sirius Black - black dog) It just fit so 
well.

I don't think I tumbled to the Sirius-Grim connection until, uh, Ron 
pointed him out in the Shrieking Shack.  Hmm.  But "Lupin" clued me 
in right away, so JKR could've saved the trouble and put his first 
name right on the suitcase as far as I was concerned.

I also wrote:

> David, what did you mean by Dobby's inexpert grasp of names?
Toby explained:

>"Harry must not lose his Weezy!"

OH!  Right.  Today is clearly my day to acknowledge my inner ungifted 
person.

Amy Z





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue May 15 21:40:27 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:40:27 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's use of names (was: Old buds?, Moody-Crouch)
In-Reply-To: <9docnq+i47c@eGroups.com>
References: <9dk7bh+jt7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515133911.00dc5270@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18795

At 10:40 AM 5/14/01 +0000, dfrankis at dial.pipex.com wrote:
>There is also a study to be done on use of He-who-must-not-be-named
>vs You-know-who vs Dark Lord (unless I've missed it).

I originally assumed the "He-Who-Must" moniker was Dobby's invention because
he means it as a clue to Harry, and nobody else says anything but 
"You-Know-Who"
until Book 3.



                         -- Dave




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 15 22:07:20 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:07:20 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's use of names (was: Old buds?, Moody-Crouch)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515133911.00dc5270@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9ds9ao+bo65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18796

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

> I originally assumed the "He-Who-Must" moniker was Dobby's 
invention because
> he means it as a clue to Harry, and nobody else says anything but 
> "You-Know-Who"
> until Book 3.

Mr. ollivander is the first to use the "He-Who-Must" in PS/SS, 
Chapter 5 (".... I think we must expect great things from you, Mr. 
Potter.... After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things -- 
terrible, yes, but great.") In addition to Dobby in CoS, Lockhart 
also uses the phrase to Harry in Chapter 6 ("...a few people have 
heard of you, haven't they? All that business with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-
Named!")

In PoA, only Pettigrew and Trelawney use the phrase (the latter sfter 
her "prediction").

   - CMC 




From tim.christian at technical.net.au  Tue May 15 22:18:13 2001
From: tim.christian at technical.net.au (Tim Christian)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:18:13 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 879
In-Reply-To: <989914844.367.40817.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0dd8c$ef0f6f60$6cc1c1c1@timc>

No: HPFGUIDX 18797

My sever went mad and so  I did not receive Digests 876  877  & 878

Any chance you could send them again please ?

Tim Christian
B. Build., Gr. Dip. Build Surv., Gr. Dip. U.E.M., Dip. Bus. (Loss Adj.),
M.A.I.B.S., ANZIIF (Snr Assoc), C.I.P.
Technical Assessing Pty Limited
Tel 02 9876 6266 Fax 02 9876 8555
_______________________________________________
The information contained in this communication and attached files is
private and confidential and is to be read and or used by the intended
addressee only.  Nothing in this communication is to be used, reproduced,
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Limited.  Unauthorised use is strictly prohibited. This communication should
be scanned to detect viruses to ensure the protection of your computer
facilities.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com [mailto:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, May 15, 2001 6:21 PM
To:	HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject:	[HPforGrownups] Digest Number 879

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All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: TR's training - historical notes on AD, CF, LM - Latin
           From: "Cait Hunter" <kiary91 at hotmail.com>
      2. Re: Question: Re items conjured from wands.
           From: Zarleycat at aol.com
      3. Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
           From: Zarleycat at aol.com
      4. Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
           From: meboriqua at aol.com
      5. Re: Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
           From: Margaret Dean <margdean at erols.com>
      6. HP4GU Contest #2
           From: joym999 at aol.com
      7. Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
           From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com
      8. Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
           From: "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at aol.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 00:14:34 -0000
   From: "Cait Hunter" <kiary91 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: TR's training - historical notes on AD, CF, LM - Latin

>Amy Z's sig said:
>
>------------------------------------------------
>  [The Crup] closely resembles a Jack Russell
>  terrier except for the forked tail.
>       -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
>------------------------------------------------
>

Oh my. I hadn't gotten FB because I'm short on cash, but now I may have to
buy it as a present for the captain of my flyball club, who runs 2 JRTs....

Is this one still available from amazon.com and whatnot? Anyone know?

Cait, with a birthday approaching...

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 00:26:25 -0000
   From: Zarleycat at aol.com
Subject: Re: Question: Re items conjured from wands.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> I have wondered for a while now how the more senior wizards are
able
> to conjure things from their wands.  Eg, Professor McGonagall
> producing food and drink at the beginning of CoS, Dumbledore
> conjuring up sleeping bags in PoA, Lupin and Snape producing ropes
> which tie up their opponents, and to a lesser extent, the judges in
> the tournament drawing figures.
>
> What kind of magic is this?  It seems to be similar to Harry
> conjuring a patronus, although this is less tangible and doesn't
last
> for long, and perhaps also has similarities with the Dark Mark.
> Therefore, I was thinking that they when tangible items are
conjured,
> they are done so by means of a kind of summoning charm, which
> requires strength of mind, as one is conjuring a type of thing one
> needs, rather than a specific, existing item.  Does this make sense?
> It seems to me that the wand is being used as an extension of self -
> something is needed, and therefore they only have to think about it
> for the wand to make it a reality.
>
> My other question is, how is this taught, and what kind of magic
does
> it fall under?  It isn't specifically a charm, as it isn't
bewitching
> a specific item.  When is it taught at Hogwarts?  Or is it the same
> thing as Hermione being able to light a fire?
>
> Catherine


I also posed a conjuring question several months ago, Catherine.  I
think you and I are on the same page regarding this form of magic.
I'd like to know how it's done, too.  Is it just force of
will/concentration that enables people to perform this?  If you are
not a very powerful witch or wizard, will your attempt to conjure up
a chair somehow get messed up and you end up with a ladder?

 It seems that conjuring is used at points in time where someone
needs a particular item immediately - Dumbledore and the sleeping
bags, Sirius conjuring up manacles to put on Pettigrew in the
Shrieking Shack, Snape conjuring stretchers to take Sirius, Harry and
Hermione to the castle after their encounter with the Dementors
towards the end of PoA.  It evidently is not something you can do
simply to make your life easier - Remus can't conjure up new clothes,
the Weasleys can't alleviate their economic status by conjuring up a
new house, clothes, etc.

Marianne



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 01:23:51 -0000
   From: Zarleycat at aol.com
Subject: Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> Chapter 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe"


> QUESTIONS
>
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

I can think of two possibilities.  One, Dumbledore asked Remus to
travel to Hogwarts via train because he was worried about the
possibility of Dementors boarding the train.  As Remus was the only
new member of the staff who had to get there from a distance, why not
travel by train?

The other thought I had was perhaps this was a day after a full moon,
since Remus is so obviously exhausted on the journey.  Perhaps
apparating from wherever he was living to the gates of Hogwarts would
have been too much of a strain.

> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get
near?
Memories of her bad experiences from CoS.

> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get
near?

Neville was obviously bothered, but I'm not sure at this point
whether the Dementor brought out a reaction derived from Neville's
past, or if he was suffering from the typical Dementor reaction -
cold, unhappy, etc.

> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

Not nearly enough, in my opinion.  Too bad Buckbeak didn't rip
his...wait, I'll stop now before the Draco-ites come after me with
wands raised.  I think he obviously milked his injury for all it was
worth, not only to gain sympathy, but to cause trouble for anyone he
could.  After all, Hagrid is half-giant, which Daddy Malfoy does not
like. Someone like that should not have been promoted to a teaching
position, let alone teaching pure blood wizards.
>
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced
as the new DADA teacher?

Ummm.  He was an unknown, not famous like Lockhart?  He doesn't have
the most dynamic appearance?  The students were busy thinking about
other things, such as the Dementors?
>
> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

If someone in a position of authority relentlessly belittled me, I'd
probably be afraid, too.

> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

Perhaps she feels that since she was muggle-born, she has to do
everything in her power to learn as much as she can.  And, since she
is a bright student, she feels she can carry it off.  Her teachers
agree with that assessment.  After all, McGonagal gives her the time-
turner.

> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with Snape
>     and Dumbledore as well)
>
I didn't pick that up at all the first 2 times I read the book.
Maybe this is a method to reinforce a certain formality about Lupin.
He seems to me to be someone who almost always maintains a great deal
of self-control.  He's never portrayed as raising his voice, his
dealings with the students are quietly effective, and, even in the
Shrieking Shack, he's not the one raising his voice - everyone else
is carrying on at high decibels.

> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a
>     werewolf)?

We'll see.  I hope JKR will let us see Remus and Sirius combining to
perform some sort of wonderful feats of magic in the upcoming battle
against V.  And I would like to see Remus lose control in some way -
I'm sure there is a volcano of emotion under that calm exterior.


> Sorry, I couldn't think of a 10th one.  Care of Magical Creatures
> summary will be up later.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 01:36:42 -0000
   From: meboriqua at aol.com
Subject: Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7

Nice summary - even though I skimmed a bit because I know PoA pretty
much backwards and forwards :-)
>
> QUESTIONS
>
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

Not sure - a combination of poverty and plot development, I guess.
>
> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get near?

I thought that scene was interesting, especially because of Ginny.  I
imagine that she was experiencing being in the grasps of Tom Riddle.
>
> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get
near?

He didn't seem to have as bad a reaction as did Harry and Ginny, so
I'm not sure.  I'd like to know more about him, like how much he knows
about his own parents.  I wonder if they are as mysterious to Neville
as Harry's parents are to Harry.  In that way, Harry and Neville have
quite a bit in common.  It's odd, to me, that Neville seems to be
terrified of so many things, like Snape, but doesn't fall apart at the
arrival of the Dementors.

>
> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

Oh puh-lease!  What a sniveling little faker!  He was cut no worse
than when I occasionally cut myself shaving my legs!
>
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced as
>     the new DADA teacher?

His appearance, perhaps?  He certainly doesn't look impressive.
>
> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

Now that's a good question.  It's a bit annoying to me that Neville is
so terrified of Snape... but I think Snape symbolizes everything
Neville is not.  Neville is quite sensitive, and is always nice to his
friends and teachers too, as there is no evidence to the contrary.
Snape probably looks like the embodiment of what put Neville's parents
in St. Mungo's.  I'm sure really young children run screaming from
Snape all the time - and Neville is not the most mature boy in
Gryffindor.
>
> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

I think Hermione honestly thought she could handle it.  She wanted to
take advantage of the education she's been offered, and wanted to
prove to herself, her parents (?) and the school that she could do it.
All that hand waving during class ain't for nothin'.
>
>
> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a
>     werewolf)?

I adore Remus Lupin.  He goes with JKR's theme of things not always
being what they appear to be.  Lockhart looked great with all those
new robes and white teeth, but he was a hopeless narcissist of a
teacher.  Lupin, OTOH, is shabby, poor and greying, yet he is the best
DADA teacher Harry and his friends have had.  Lupin is calm,
thoughtful, perceptive, and clearly quite intelligent.  He is also
brave, as he is one of the few people to say Voldie's name out loud.
I think there's a lot more to him, and we'll be seeing that in OoP.  I
can't wait!

--jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks her new 10" unicorn hai



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:08:42 -0400
   From: Margaret Dean <margdean at erols.com>
Subject: Re: Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
>

> > 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?
>
> Oh puh-lease!  What a sniveling little faker!  He was cut no worse
> than when I occasionally cut myself shaving my legs!

Granted that Malfoy is a sniveling little faker, but we =are=
talking about getting struck at by the equivalent of a bird of
prey the size of a horse.  I'd be prepared to believe it was a
pretty nasty slash that bled a lot, but as they say, "only a
flesh wound."  And he =did= ask for it.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 02:04:40 -0000
   From: joym999 at aol.com
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2

Well, the poems are trickling in rather slowly, so I am thinking of
extending the deadline for at least a few days, maybe a whole week
since I am kind of busy.  Would more time give more people the
incentive to write some poetry?

Incidently, the poems I have received so far are all very good and I
think you will all enjoy them.  I was expecting horrible haikus and
lousy limericks, like the ones I wrote, but so far only the real
poets have responded.  Please, people, write some vile verse and save
me from the fate of being the only bad poet on HP4GU!

--Joywitch



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 03:32:58 -0000
   From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> QUESTIONS
>
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

Protection for Harry and the other students from Sirius Black and
also the Dementors. Black was thought to be the murderer of James and
Lily Potter plus others.  Not to mention Black had been heard to
mention something like 'he is at Hogwarts' (sorry, no book
available). Dumbledore isn't going to take any chances with Black
loose and the Dementors around.

> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get near?

I would guess her ordeal involving Tom Riddle.  Not an experience she
would want to remember.

> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get
near?

Not sure. I tend to think he remembers events surrounding his parents
torture, sort of like how Harry remembers his parents final moments.
I know there is nothing in the books that say Neville was present
during his parents torture. This is just speculation on my part.


> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

There did seem to be a bit of bleeding so I am sure the original
wound was fairly bad. But, I think he healed much quicker than he let
on!

> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced
as
>     the new DADA teacher?

Probably just a matter of no one knowing who he was.  Just another
teacher.  I'm sure the shabby robes didn't help any either.

> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

I think there is more to Neville and Snape than just Snape being a
mean teacher.  Something we just don't know yet.

> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

No clue.


> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with
Snape
>     and Dumbledore as well)

Hadn't really thought about it. Sorry.

>
> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a
>     werewolf)?

I'm sure he is brave and trustworthy.  Someone Dumbledore will be
able to depend on.

Koinonia



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 04:07:31 -0000
   From: "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at aol.com>
Subject: Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> Chapter 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" QUESTIONS

Nice summaries Parker. Glad you could do the Remus section <g> and
good questions don't worry that there aren't 10.

>
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?

   I think he was on the train for 2 reasons. The first reason is
that it was the full moon the night before(in JKR's world)so Remus is
extremely drained. That's why he is so tired and looks ill. It would
probably be too hard for him to travel any other way. The second
reason I think he's on the train is that Dumbledore asked him to.
Dumbledore knows the Dementors are looking for Sirius and they may
even try to board the train. He wants Remus on the train to "get rid"
of the dementors and help the students.
>
> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get
near?

  Ginny is probably reliving her experiences during CoS with Tom
Riddle. That's my guess.
>
> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get
near?

  Neville may be seeing his parents in St. Mungos or his grandmother.


> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?
   I think he was badly cut but not life threatening. He definately
milked it for all it was worth.
>
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced
as the new DADA teacher?

    I think it has to do with his appearance. His robes are ragged
and he looks very ill.  Most everyone isn't sure what to make of him.
>
> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

    Snape probably reminds him of his overbearing grandmother.

>
> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

      Maybe becuase being raised as a muggle she feels she's behind
everyone else who was raised in the wizarding world. I thinks she
feels she needs to "catch" up. Although it may just be something
simple like she's an overachiever.


> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with
Snape and Dumbledore as well)

     She refers to all the professors by their last names unless they
are speaking to one another or to another character like Sirius or
Rosemerta. I think she does that to establish some sense of formality.

>
> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a
>     werewolf)?
>
     Yes I think there is more than meets the with regard to Remus.
He's very mysterious and we don't really learn much about him in PoA.
I'm thinking that he's a very powerful wizard and may have a few
special powers(like Dumbledore maybe). But then I guess we'll have to
wait for OoP.

Cheers,

       Kristin

**********************************************************************
Sirius grinned. "I'll have you know my friend Remus here has been
quite a hit with the veelas back where we come from."  -DS13

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/All_Things_Potter
**********************************************************************



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From bohners at pobox.com  Tue May 15 20:10:37 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:10:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7 Question 10
References: <9drs62+qv5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01c0dd98$c3a96540$0f3bacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 18798

> > 10. Why did Neville tell Malfoy that Potter had passed out when the
> > dementors came onto the train?

Behold a Gryffindor in whom there is no guile.  Neville was genuinely
anxious about Harry's collapse and unthinkingly assumed that everybody else
would be alarmed by it as well.  He wasn't thinking of how Malfoy could
misuse such information to get at Harry, because it would never occur to
Neville to do such a thing himself.  He's just that sweet and naive.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed May 16 00:32:23 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:32:23 -0000
Subject: Wizards, witches, hags and warlocks
Message-ID: <9dshqn+4sng@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18799

Hello Everyone!

I hope this hasn't been discussed before, but it's bothering me, and 
people here write the best explanations of things, so here goes...

I looked up both 'wizard' and 'warlock' and found nearly identical 
definitions.  When I looked up 'hag', 'witch' was part of the 
definition.  So what's the difference?  Why aren't there more warlocks 
in Harry's world?  If they're bad, wouldn't Voldie be one?  If they're 
not bad, wouldn't they also go to Hogwarts?  And is a hag simply an 
ugly witch?  They seem to try to keep themselves hidden in HP, but I 
don't know why.

I hope someone can help me out here!

--jenny from ravenclaw, whose computer keeps cutting off her 
words******************************************************




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May 16 00:40:20 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:40:20 -0000
Subject: Wizards, witches, hags and warlocks
In-Reply-To: <9dshqn+4sng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dsi9k+eegi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18800

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Hello Everyone!
> 
> I hope this hasn't been discussed before, but it's bothering me, 
and 
> people here write the best explanations of things, so here goes...
> 
> I looked up both 'wizard' and 'warlock' and found nearly identical 
> definitions.  When I looked up 'hag', 'witch' was part of the 
> definition.  So what's the difference

This is one of those questions I plan to ask JKR if I ever get a 
chance to interview her. Hags are clearly less human female witches; 
they are mentioned as eating children in FB. They are not Beasts, 
however. The term warlock seems to be used for a male wizard, with no 
particular difference between them. However, "a group of rowdy 
warlocks" is mentioned at one point, suggesting perhaps that they are 
somewhat less civilized wizards. But then, why would Dumbledore be 
the Chief Warlock, according to the letter he sends to Harry in SS? 
Unless Warlocks are somewhat outside of "proper" wizarding society, 
but have their own organizations and Dumbledore is a member of them, 
thereby demonstrating how accepting and accepted he is.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has no pages about either because I don't know what to write...
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 01:08:08 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:08:08 -0000
Subject: Wizards, witches, hags and warlocks
In-Reply-To: <9dsi9k+eegi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dsjto+pvor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18801

Jenny wrote:

> >  When I looked up 'hag', 'witch' was part of the 
> > definition.  So what's the difference

Steve wrote:

> This is one of those questions I plan to ask JKR if I ever get a 
> chance to interview her. Hags are clearly less human female witches; 
> they are mentioned as eating children in FB. They are not Beasts, 
> however. 

There's a mention of them that implies they are noticeably different 
than humans in appearance.  I don't know exactly where, but it's 
in Hogsmeade (I think it's in the Three Broomsticks), and it must be 
in GF, because I checked the scenes in PA and it isn't there.  It says 
something about how creatures like hags like Hogsmeade because they 
have a harder time than wizards disguising themselves in the Muggle 
world.  I guess that makes Hogsmeade the Provincetown of the wizarding 
world.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
 The full list of these fouls, however, has never
 been made available to the wizarding public.  It
 is the Department's view that witches and wizards
 who see the list 'might get ideas'.
                      -Quidditch Through the Ages
---------------------------------------------------




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed May 16 02:27:05 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 02:27:05 -0000
Subject: Sketch:  Care of Magical Creatures Class
Message-ID: <9dsohp+cvfc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18802

Sorry for the delay in posting.  I was struck by the writer's block 
curse & couldn't seem to get this one together.  Inspiration struck, 
however, via poetry.  Bad poetry.  (no flames please ;))

Care of Magical Creatures

If it's a quiet class you're looking for,
Look elsewhere.
For with Hagrid, monsters are the norm. 

First there were the Hippogriffs,
Interestin' creatures.
But Malfoy's dad gave Bucky an execution slip.

Then there were the flobberworms,
What duds!
All they did was lie around eating lettuce.

Fourth year we had Skrewts,
Manticore/firecrabs--
They were definately not a hoot!

Hagrid knows a lot about unicorns,
Shy creatures.
Pure and innocent are they.

Nifflers are nifty to have around,
Seeking gold.
Unfortunately they'll tear your house down. 

So there you have it.  I could only come up with a few 

QUESTIONS

1.  Why do you think Hagrid likes monsters?  (He obviously knows 
    about creatures other than dangerous ones, i.e., unicorns)

2.  What kinds of creatures did Kettleburn cover?  (Charlie Weasley is
    studying dragons in Romania--is this a clue?)

3.  Do you think Hagrid's teaching the classes about these creatures
    for a reason (will they have to face them in the next three
    books?).  Or is is just because he finds them interesting? 

4.  When Hagrid "gets in hot water" with his "interestin' creatures", 
    he teaches them about something rather innocuous.  Why?  

This last one is just for kicks 

5.  Would you like to be in Hagrid's class? 






From relliott at jvlnet.com  Wed May 16 02:41:45 2001
From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:41:45 -0500
Subject: verbal facility in discussing ideas, 
Message-ID: <200105160241.VAA26463@emerald.jvlnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18803

Writing, clear and precise insights into literature and its effects on readers;begin to appreciate the role which reading good literature can play in human development.Course MaterialsThe following texts may be purchased at the University Bookstore:	Ironman, Chris Crutcher	A Wrinkle in Time, Madeline L?Engle	The Giver, Lois Lowry	Fallen Angels, Walter Dean Myers	Bridge to Terabithia, Katherine Paterson	The Voyage of the Frog, Gary Paulsen	Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, J.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Wed May 16 02:09:00 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:09:00 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sketch:  Care of Magical Creatures Class
References: <9dsohp+cvfc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B01E13C.FE36FEAA@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18804

pbnesbit at msn.com wrote:

> This last one is just for kicks
> 
> 5.  Would you like to be in Hagrid's class?

Actually, yes!  But then, I'm the kind of person who goes out
birdwatching and is just as happy to watch vultures as robins . .
.   :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May 16 03:04:04 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:04:04 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest Deadline Extended
Message-ID: <9dsqn4+7f24@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18805

Hello all. I am extending the contest deadline for this weeks contest 
until noon (EST) on Thursday.  So please, write a poem about any 
character in the HP universe.  So far, I have received poems about 
Snape, Hermione, the Marauders, and Wendelin the Weird, among 
others.  Any kind of poem -- good, bad, brillant, horrible; haiku, 
free-form, sonnet.

Contest rules and the original post for this contest can be found in 
the files section in the folder called HP4GU Contest.  Any questions, 
just ask.

Remember, dont post your poem!  Email it to the contest address, 
which is HP4GUCon at aol.com.

--Joywitch




From relliott at jvlnet.com  Wed May 16 03:06:28 2001
From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:06:28 -0500
Subject: Digest Number 881 #24
References: <989981484.1992.27345.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c0ddb5$33fb4c20$45b191d8@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 18806

>    From: Rachelle Elliott
> Subject: verbal facility in discussing ideas,
>
> Writing, clear and precise insights into literature and its effects on
readers;begin to appreciate the role which reading good literature can play
in human development.Course MaterialsThe following texts may be purchased at
the University Bookstore: Ironman, Chris Crutcher A Wrinkle in Time,
Madeline L'Engle The Giver, Lois Lowry Fallen Angels, Walter Dean Myers
Bridge to Terabithia, Katherine Paterson The Voyage of the Frog, Gary
Paulsen Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, J.

I am sorry.  I have no idea how (on this muggle earth) it was sent!  The
passage was from an on-line syllabus for a class I had taken several
semesters ago.  I was surprised when I saw that I had written something to
the club.  About as surprised as Harry was when his name came out of the
Goblet of Fire. ;)




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May 16 03:21:36 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:21:36 -0000
Subject: Wizards, witches, hags and warlocks
In-Reply-To: <9dsi9k+eegi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dsro0+qnql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18807

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > Hello Everyone!
> > 
> > I hope this hasn't been discussed before, but it's bothering me, 
> and 
> > people here write the best explanations of things, so here goes...
> > 
> > I looked up both 'wizard' and 'warlock' and found nearly 
identical 
> > definitions.  
> 
> This is one of those questions I plan to ask JKR if I ever get a 
> chance to interview her. [snip]The term warlock seems to be used 
for a male wizard, with no 
> particular difference between them. However, "a group of rowdy 
> warlocks" is mentioned at one point, suggesting perhaps that they 
are 
> somewhat less civilized wizards. But then, why would Dumbledore be 
> the Chief Warlock, according to the letter he sends to Harry in SS? 
> Unless Warlocks are somewhat outside of "proper" wizarding society, 
> but have their own organizations and Dumbledore is a member of 
them, 
> thereby demonstrating how accepting and accepted he is.
> 

I got the impression that the word "warlock" was used sort of the way 
we use the term "gentleman."  Sort of formal, sort of polite, often 
referring to customers in a retail establishment, but also sort of 
tongue-in-cheek, as in "the group of rowdy gentlemen in the corner."

--Joywitch




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 16 03:52:48 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:52:48 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
Message-ID: <c5.10d8ace0.28335390@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18808

1.  Why was Remus on the train?

He probably couldn't afford another mode of transportation, or was too weak 
to do it any other way. I've heard other people ask why didn't he just 
apparate. "Are you ever going to read _Hogwarts, A History_?"  <G> If it's 
true that the first day of school came around the time of the full moon, then 
Lupin was more than likely in a weakened state. 

2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get near? 

Probably a horrible recollection about the Riddle/Diary incident.  Not 
knowing much about Ginny, it's hard to speculate.

3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get near?

I like the theory that he was somehow around when his parents were paralyzed 
by the Cruciatus curse, and his memory trouble a result of a memory charm. 
This adds so much more depth to his character. Until now, I've always 
pictured Ralph Wiggam from _The Simpsons_ whenever Neville is in a scene. But 
now that I've been thinking about it, he's in worse shape than Harry (see #6 
for more on this).


4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?

Are you kidding? That lying brat..... just milking it for what it was worth 
to get his way. 

5.  > as the new 
>   

Well, the kids haven't had much luck with DADA teachers, now have they? It's 
just old hat for them. Also, the train ride was somewhat traumatic, and they 
probably weren't feeling much like celebrating. Kids (and adults for that 
matter) can be judgmental about someone's appearance. Perhaps he didn't look 
like someone worth applauding.

6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?

Neville, more than any of the children, including Harry*, knows what evil is 
capable of. Now before you call me an idiot, let me explain. Harry's parents 
are dead. Neville, on the other hand, can see his parents. He has a visual 
reminder of what evil can do. He can see how broken and traumatized they are. 
I'm sure his Granny told him that Snape was a Death Eater (this is just a gut 
feeling; I think she's bitter about having to raise Neville who's a "shame" 
to their family). Even if she didn't, the children have all gossiped about 
Snape, and I'm sure he's heard it. To know that Snape was in the same crowd 
that tortured his parents into a waking coma has got to be traumatic. Add the 
fact that Snape is openly hateful towards him, and there isn't any reason why 
he should be afraid.

*I'm referring to the Harry in PoA, not GoF. I'm sure by the end of GoF, 
Harry and Neville have much more in common. I'm sure that after Harry saw the 
AK spell performed on Cedric, he had a much greater understanding of how evil 
works.  


7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

She's an intelligent child, who has high ambition. I don't think it's any 
great mystery that Hermione is an overachiever. Also, having been raised by 
Muggles, I think she feels she's "missing" something. 


8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with Snape and 
Dumbledore as well)

As opposed to what? I'm not sure I understand where this one is going..... 
(getting a bit sleepy here)


9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a werewolf)?

I think Lupin was probably approached by the dark side. "The wizarding world 
will scorn you. Be one of us!" I think he me have a lot of enemies on the 
other side. Also, I think he is afraid to get close to Harry, despite an 
obvious want to. I for the life of me can't figure out why, unless the pain 
of losing James is still too much for him.  

Toby
who hopes this made some sense....   :-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From deeblite at home.com  Wed May 16 03:55:33 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:55:33 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 881 #24
In-Reply-To: <000601c0ddb5$33fb4c20$45b191d8@computer>
References: <989981484.1992.27345.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010515235440.02e8cce0@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18809

At 10:06 PM 5/15/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >    From: Rachelle Elliott
> > Subject: verbal facility in discussing ideas,
> >
> > Writing, clear and precise insights into literature and its effects on
>readers;begin to appreciate the role which reading good literature can play
>in human development.Course MaterialsThe following texts may be purchased at
>the University Bookstore: Ironman, Chris Crutcher A Wrinkle in Time,
>Madeline L'Engle The Giver, Lois Lowry Fallen Angels, Walter Dean Myers
>Bridge to Terabithia, Katherine Paterson The Voyage of the Frog, Gary
>Paulsen Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, J.
>
>I am sorry.  I have no idea how (on this muggle earth) it was sent!  The
>passage was from an on-line syllabus for a class I had taken several
>semesters ago.  I was surprised when I saw that I had written something to
>the club.  About as surprised as Harry was when his name came out of the
>Goblet of Fire. ;)


Oddly enough, I got that in my private email (didnt get filtererd into my 
mailing lists folder) and it had an .exe attachment. I thought it was a 
virus or something




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 04:00:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 04:00:02 -0000
Subject: Digest Number 881 #24 (syllabus)
In-Reply-To: <000601c0ddb5$33fb4c20$45b191d8@computer>
Message-ID: <9dsu02+pdbr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18810

I know the subject line isn't very descriptive, but it fits the chaos 
of this post so beautifully, doesn't it?  Kind of like "Revolution No. 
9."  In deference to our dear Moderators, who have to wear hairnets 
to conceal the fact that they've torn out all their hair in despair at 
badly behaved listies, I did add "syllabus."

Rachelle wrote:

> I am sorry.  I have no idea how (on this muggle earth) it was sent! 
 The
> passage was from an on-line syllabus for a class I had taken several
> semesters ago.  I was surprised when I saw that I had written 
something to
> the club.  About as surprised as Harry was when his name came out of 
the
> Goblet of Fire. ;)

Like Harry, you can't back out now.  Please tell us about the course! 
 What did you learn about PoA?  Did the professor like HP?  

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
   The snake jerked its head toward Uncle Vernon
 and Dudley, then raised its eyes to the ceiling.  
 It gave Harry a look that said quite plainly:
   "=I get that all the time.="
                -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------------------




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 16 04:00:05 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:00:05 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid History
Message-ID: <47.b733322.28335545@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18811

In a message dated 5/15/2001 10:31:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
deeblite at home.com writes:


> I want to add that it's entirely possible that at the time, the restricted 
> section of the library WASN'T restricted.  It's bringing about the creation 
> of the worst dark wizard in history would be enough reason to make it 
> restricted, though, no?
> 

This is an excellent observation! Perhaps it wasn't even restricted when 
Lucius Malfoy was there, and the fact that it is could be why he wanted Draco 
to go to Durmstrang instead. I remember Draco saying something to the effect 
of "Durmstrang students study the Dark Arts, not just this defense stuff 
we've got." Perhaps Lucius wants Draco to have the same chance that he, and 
others had, to study the Dark Arts on their own.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed May 16 04:03:36 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 04:03:36 -0000
Subject: Hufflepuffs have evil potential?
In-Reply-To: <69.153682d3.28308984@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dsu6o+r323@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18812

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., browneyes1420 at a... wrote:

> What house is Pettigrew (aka Wormtail) in????? JP & co would not 
have a 
> Slytherin an a bf, if he is a Griffindor, what does that say about 
the 
> Griffindors in genral.  Besides, this is highly unlikely and 
Pettigrew was 
> not bright either, so... Hufflepuff???
> Joe, full of q's with no a's

The general assumption is that Pettigrew was in Gryffindor with James, 
Sirius and Lupin.

I don't think one's house has anything to do with being "good" or 
"evil". I think everyone has the potential for "evil" as well as the 
potential for "good". For example, Ravenclaws are supposed to be 
clever, but that does not necessarily a Ravenclaw will not use their 
cleverness for evil purposes. Ditto for a Slytherin. Slytherins are  
willing to break rules and do anything to get what they want. Sure, 
this doesn't have "Good-Guy" written all over it, but it doesn't 
necessarily mean "evil" either. 

:-)Milz 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed May 16 04:09:46 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 04:09:46 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <c5.10d8ace0.28335390@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dsuia+8gqr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18813

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:

> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?
> 
> I'm sure his Granny told him that Snape was a Death Eater (this is just a gut 
> feeling; I think she's bitter about having to raise Neville who's a "shame" 
> to their family). Even if she didn't, the children have all gossiped about 
> Snape, and I'm sure he's heard it. 

	It's possilbe that Granny knows, and maybe she told Neville, but I 
doubt it. I think if that were the case, Granny would never have sent 
Neville to Hogwarts (he could have gone to Beauxbatons).
	 I don't think Snape's past is common knowledge despite the 
courtroom scene in the Pensieve. Sirius doesn't know about it, for one 
thing. I  have a feeling that that portion of the trials was covered by 
the magical equivalent of an Official Secrets Act, and everyone present 
had to agree to some sort of silencing charm or magical oath. Letting 
Harry look in the Pensieve would have been a way for Dumbledore to get 
around that.
	 As for gossip about Snape, why would Neville have heard it 
if Harry, Ron and Hermione haven't?
Pippin





From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 16 04:13:25 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:13:25 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] tidbits: fighting dragons, toads
Message-ID: <fc.641c476.28335865@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18814

In a message dated 5/15/2001 2:16:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
vderark at bccs.org writes:


> So what happened? Why did she finally decide to come up into the air? 
> My guess is that it's the same reason that Nagini obeys Voldemort and 
> the same reason that the Basilisk obeyed Tom Riddle and Salazar 
> Slytherin...and the same reason that the snake obeyed Harry at the 
> Dueling Club. That hissing Harry was doing was Parseltongue, although 
> he probably didn't even realize it. He ORDERED her into the air and 
> she obeyed. After all, when Harry was looking at the image of a snake 
> on the taps in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, he felt that he could only 
> speak Parseltongue when faced with a real snake, and the Horntail 
> look to Harry, just a few second before, like a snake weaving before 
> a charmer.

This was my theory as well. Actually, I had typed up a nice, long reply 
before I read your entire message, and my jaw dropped when I read this part.  
:-) Great minds, you know..    :-)

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From devika261 at aol.com  Wed May 16 04:24:50 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:24:50 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
Message-ID: <43.152d0c53.28335b12@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18815

After joining this list not too long ago and lurking for the past week or so, 
i'm making an attempt to join a discussion :)

In a message dated 5/15/01 10:59:15 PM EST, dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com writes:

<< I think Lupin was probably approached by the dark side. "The wizarding 
world 
 will scorn you. Be one of us!" I think he me have a lot of enemies on the 
 other side. Also, I think he is afraid to get close to Harry, despite an 
 obvious want to. I for the life of me can't figure out why, unless the pain 
 of losing James is still too much for him.   >>

I hadn't thought about Lupin being approached by the dark side, but I think 
you make a really good point.  Werewolves would have been some of the first 
ones that people would have suspected of going over to the dark side, due to 
their prejudices, so Lupin may very well have been approached by them.  I 
wonder if Lupin was tempted to go over to the dark side.  Sirius must have 
had some reason for mistrusting him (he didn't tell him about the change in 
Secret-Keeper because he thought Lupin was a spy).  It seems that they were 
too close for Sirius to suspect him without cause.  Of course, Sirius's own 
prejudices about werewolves, which he may still have had, combined with the 
atmosphere of the time may have made him see an enemy in an old friend.  But 
still...
As for Lupin not wanting to get close to Harry, I think they did get somewhat 
close during the course of the year.  However, it's possible that Lupin is 
afraid to get too close to anyone.  Perhaps he once (in werewolf form) hurt 
someone he loved and is afraid to have something like that happen again.  And 
I also agree that it is possible that Harry may remind Lupin so much of James 
(the resemblance is uncanny) that getting close to him is painful.

Hoping that this post is worthy of my resurfacing :)
Devika



From miladyem at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 04:28:50 2001
From: miladyem at yahoo.com (miladyem at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 04:28:50 -0000
Subject: TMR's training; 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010515102657.0264c8e0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9dsvm2+nriu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18816

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote:
> At 08:41 AM 5/15/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
>>...I think V got his dark arts knowledge mainly from
> >the restricted section of the library and his own original mind (he
> >was after all a brilliant student)...
> 
> 
> I want to add that it's entirely possible that at the time, the 
restricted 
> section of the library WASN'T restricted.  It's bringing about the 
creation 
> of the worst dark wizard in history would be enough reason to make 
it 
> restricted, though, no?

Delurking...  I'm a 16- year old sophmore in the Pacific Northwest.  
I lurk because by the time I finish reading all my email anything I 
could say has already been said, but I had to comment.

Why would Grindelward and/or the Restricted Section be the only 
source of the Dark Arts for Voldemort/Riddle?

IMHO, Riddle would have gone to Hogwarts, and discovered he was a 
Parseltongue, become interested in the Dark Arts, developed his 
strong antimuggle prejudice, opened the chamber, etc,(not necessarily 
in that order) and while there learn enough Dark Arts to be able to 
sucessfully preform Avada Kedavra.  I imagine he killed his father's 
family immediately after he graduated which would circumvent his 
being underage.  I don't know how he practiced and learned Avada 
Kedavra if it is such a difficult spell.

I don't think he would have to study with Grindelward.  Someone 
(sorry I'm not sure who) says TR 'disappears for a time traveling and 
consorting with the worst of our number'(or something like that).  
There must always be dark wizards or witches in Harry's world like 
there are always criminals in ours.  He would have sought them out, 
met them, and learned from them.  He seems to be interested in power 
and immortality.(Not too creative as evil overlords go)  There is 
probably plenty of dark magic focusing on those things, that a 
resourceful, bright person could learn about. He probably also met 
some of his future death eaters.  Still, there seem to be at least 25 
missing years that would be interesting to find out about (future 
plot development?)  Eventually, he made himself a semi-immortal snake 
thing and resurfaced. There are definitly still major questions 
though.

Whew! Thanks for bearing with me!

Em

-If you want to change the world be that change- Gandhi









From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 16 04:30:06 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:30:06 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizards, witches, hags and warlocks
Message-ID: <14.142689bb.28335c4e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18817

In a message dated 5/15/2001 8:37:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
meboriqua at aol.com writes:


> I looked up both 'wizard' and 'warlock' and found nearly identical 
> definitions.  When I looked up 'hag', 'witch' was part of the 
> definition.  So what's the difference?  Why aren't there more warlocks 
> in Harry's world?  If they're bad, wouldn't Voldie be one?  If they're 
> not bad, wouldn't they also go to Hogwarts?  And is a hag simply an 
> ugly witch?  They seem to try to keep themselves hidden in HP, but I 
> don't know why.

I could write you a whole book about this, but I don't think many would be 
interested. Here's the Cliffs Notes version....  :-)

"Warlock" comes from a word meaning "oath breaker." This was usually assigned 
to Witches or Wizards who broke oaths to expose fellow magic practitioners 
(especially during the European Witch trials and the Inquisition). It's also 
associated with people (usually men) who practice dark magic. 

Wizard and Witch mean the same thing. In days of old, they were gender 
specific, with Wizard being male and Witch being female. Modern day Wiccans 
refer to themselves as Witches whether they are male or female, however. 

The term "hag" is usually used to describe an old Witch. In Neo Pagan 
worship, it's also a term used for the Crone aspect of the Goddess.

Toby
who hopes she's not starting another holy war.....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 16 04:36:10 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 00:36:10 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
Message-ID: <78.14bacc60.28335dba@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18818

In a message dated 5/16/2001 12:10:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
foxmoth at qnet.com writes:


> As for gossip about Snape, why would Neville have heard it 
> if Harry, Ron and Hermione haven't?

They all have their suspicions, and Snape being head of Slytherin house 
doesn't help keep the rumors down, either. Even Harry knows that Slytherin 
House has turned out "more dark wizards than any other." I'm sure Neville 
knows that, too. 

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed May 16 05:25:26 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:25:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] tidbits: fighting dragons, toads
References: <9drou7+1177c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B020F45.DBC56C0B@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 18819



Steve Vander Ark wrote:

So what happened? Why did she finally decide to come up into the air?

--My guess? She coulnd't think of anything. It make sense, though if you think about it. she's not flying, she's not flying, Oh Look! She flew!

2 - Doesn't it just figure that Neville would have a toad?

It seems to suit him somehow...at least that's what I think.....

>
> Note also that Hagrid doesn't like cats. JKR has stated that she
> doesn't like them either.
>

Does anyone know why she doesn't like them?


--

"Westley and I are joined by the bonds of love,
and you cannot track it, not with a thousand
blood houds. And you cannot break it, not with a
thousand swords. And when I say you are a
coward, it is only because you are the slimiest
 weakling ever to crawl the earth!" - Buttercup
from 'The Princess Bride'

"There is a shortage of very perfect breasts in this world.
It would be a pity to damage yours." -
Wesley in The Princess Bride





From catlady at wicca.net  Wed May 16 05:38:31 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:38:31 -0700
Subject: conjuring things - Remus - Blaise - Green Eyes - Harry-Tom - Warlock - 
Message-ID: <3B021255.20D9B014@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18820

Catherine wrote:
> I have wondered for a while now how the more senior
> wizards are able to conjure things from their wands. (snip)
> It isn't specifically a charm, as it isn't bewitching a specific item.

Some people have asserted that Dumbledore is merely summoning food,
chairs, and purple sleeping bags from some storage place. That would be
a form of Summoning, as you suggested, which is a Charm. I like to think
that powerful wizards like Dumbledore can create food, chairs, and
purple sleeping bags ex nihilo. It could be argued that creating things
ex nihilo is Transfiguration (changing Nothing or Vacuum Energy or Air
into Something). Perhaps it is a whole nother kind of spell, perhaps
called Creation, which is too advanced to be taught in school. IIRC JKR
said in a chat that the Weasleys can't solve their poverty by conjuring
up clothes & stuff because magically produced stuff doesn't last.

Amy Z wrote:
> Snape usually calls Dumbledore "Headmaster," (snip) we
> don't learn Lupin's first name until Sirius uses it near the end
> of PA (ch 18)

I'm pretty sure that Snape called Dumbledore 'Albus' after Dumbledore
called him to heel when he was snapping at Karkaroff in the room where
the unexpectedly FOUR champions gathered. I'm pretty sure that Remus's
suitcase was labeled Professor Remus J. Lupin when the kids first saw
him 'asleep' on the train.

Morag wrote:
> it is not usual to refer to girls in the same way.(snip) I think
> Snape is being marginally ruder, though it is a kind of standoff,
> in that neither is prepared to adjust their own usage to the other's.

Very long ago when I was young, girls calling each other by surname only
was kind of a girl jock thing ("Everybody shut up or get out of the
room! Cook, this means you!").

I believe that Dumbledore first-names his staff and wants them to all
first-name each other in an attempt to enforce friendship, collegiality,
and something like equality among the staff, that Lupin first-names
Severus because he is following Albus's instructions and trying to be
friendly, and Snape refuses to first-name Remus because he is firmly
rejecting the offer of friendliness.

Parker wrote:
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was
> introduced as the new DADA teacher?

He looked shabby (and also tired and worn out), so they formed a low
estimate of his abilities.

After enough re-readings, I suddenly realised that Dumbledore had asked
Remus to ride the Hogwarts Express and guard Harry from the Dementors.
Remus found out somehow that Harry was travelling with the Weasleys who
are always late, so he could be sure that if he got in the last
carriage, by the time that the Weasley party arrived, that would be the
closest to empty of the carriages, which they would take, and he could
pretend to be asleep the whole time to avoid embarrassing them by having
an adult to babysit them.

Caius Marcius wrote:
> Well, he pretty much lost total control in Chapter 20, after
> transforming back into a wolf.

Come to think on it, he turned into a wolf and ran off into the woods
... he DIDN'T turn into a wolf and turn to Ron manacled beside him and
bite his throat out ... that might be quite a high degree of
self-control considering what is said about werewolves' irresistible
compulsion to attack humans....

Blaise wrote:
> Has JKR said anywhere, e.g. in a chat/interview, how
> old Minerva McGonagall is?

Blaise! It is so nice to see you back! I had a Classics remark (about
Eris and the Kallisti apple) to put in the latest chapter of my
snapefic, so I assigned it to Blaise Zabini because he has the same name
as you and you're a classicist.

JKR said in a chat that Dumbledore is 150 and McGonagall 'is a sprightly
seventy'. If she meant 70 at the time of the chat, Minnie could have
been born 1930 and her schooldays could have overlapped with Tom Riddle
(born 1926)'s.

Milz wrote:
> Harry's green eyes could also be explained by gene expression.

When magic is involved, a person can have naturally green eyes without
any of the genes having been in their ancestry.

Caius Marcius wrote:
> And of course an enterprising young man,  such as Harry or
> Tom, never lack for ways of just sneaking in surreptitiously.

I keep wondering whether there is a character named Dick.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> I looked up both 'wizard' and 'warlock' and found nearly
> identical definitions. When I looked up 'hag', 'witch' was
> part of the definition.

IIRC, the narration includes a reference to hags not being very good at
disguising themselves as humans and to a hag in the Leaky Cauldron
eating a plate of raw liver. From this, I deduce that in the
Potterverse, 'hag' is a type of non-human Being, while 'witch' is a
female human with magic. I haven't been able to find anything in the
text that suggests a different between 'wizard' and 'warlock', so, based
on references to Warlocks' Convention in History of Magic, I invented a
theory that 'warlock' is like 'congressmen' or 'member of parliament':
an elected representative to a wizarding representative legislature.

Parker wrote:
> 2.  What kinds of creatures did Kettleburn cover?  (Charlie
> Weasley is studying dragons in Romania--is this a clue?)

Dumbledore's announcement of Kettleburn's retirement said he wanted 'to
spend more time with his remaining limbs'.
---
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From carissabradley at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 06:41:06 2001
From: carissabradley at yahoo.com (carissabradley at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 06:41:06 -0000
Subject: Sketch:  Care of Magical Creatures Class
In-Reply-To: <9dsohp+cvfc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dt7e2+acdd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18821

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> QUESTIONS
> 
> 1.  Why do you think Hagrid likes monsters?  (He obviously knows 
>     about creatures other than dangerous ones, i.e., unicorns)

I think Hagrid likes monsters because he can relate to them on some 
level.  He is a giant and thus is subjected to certian stereotypes.  
Many of the creatures he has exposed us to are "misunderstood."  For 
example, the hippogriff - it only attacks when it is provoked, but 
seems to be perfectly gentle other times.  Of course, some of the 
creatures are misunderstood by Hagrid.  The giant spiders in CoS like 
and respect Hagrid but were ready to eat Harry and Ron for dinner.  
Overall, I think Hagrid just wants to give everyone a chance, 
including monsters and dangerous magical creatures.  
> 
> 2.  What kinds of creatures did Kettleburn cover?  (Charlie Weasley 
is
>     studying dragons in Romania--is this a clue?)
> 
> 3.  Do you think Hagrid's teaching the classes about these creatures
>     for a reason (will they have to face them in the next three
>     books?).  Or is is just because he finds them interesting?

Right now it seems that the creatues serve as comic relief.  The only 
animal introduced in a Care of Magical Creatues class that had any 
effect on the plot was the hippogriff.  It attacked Draco and created 
a way for Sirius to escape.  I don't know how the other creatures 
could be used to further the plot.  I can't see Harry and company 
defeating Voldemort with flobberworms and no one seems to be able to 
control blast-ended skrewts enough to use them for anything.
> 
> 4.  When Hagrid "gets in hot water" with his "interestin' 
creatures", 
>     he teaches them about something rather innocuous.  Why? 

I think he looses his nerve or maybe Dumbledore tells him to back off 
for a while. 
> 
> This last one is just for kicks 
> 
> 5.  Would you like to be in Hagrid's class?

While I think Hagrid is a great guy, I don't think I would like to be 
one of his students unless I could just go on the day when he covers 
unicorns.

Carissa




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May 16 07:23:58 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 07:23:58 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dsuia+8gqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dt9ue+2e50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18822

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:
> 
> > 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?
> > 
> > I'm sure his Granny told him that Snape was a Death Eater (this 
is just a gut 
> > feeling; I think she's bitter about having to raise Neville who's 
a "shame" 
> > to their family). Even if she didn't, the children have all 
gossiped about 
> > Snape, and I'm sure he's heard it. 
> 
> 	It's possilbe that Granny knows, and maybe she told Neville, 
but I 
> doubt it. I think if that were the case, Granny would never have 
sent 
> Neville to Hogwarts (he could have gone to Beauxbatons).
> 	 I don't think Snape's past is common knowledge despite the 
> courtroom scene in the Pensieve. Sirius doesn't know about it, for 
one 
> thing. I  have a feeling that that portion of the trials was 
covered by 
> the magical equivalent of an Official Secrets Act, and everyone 
present 
> had to agree to some sort of silencing charm or magical oath. 
Letting 
> Harry look in the Pensieve would have been a way for Dumbledore to 
get 
> around that.
> 	 As for gossip about Snape, why would Neville have heard it 
> if Harry, Ron and Hermione haven't?
> Pippin

You are quite right - the only thing I take exception to is the idea 
that Neville could have gone to Beauxbatons.  Can you imagine him 
trying to learn French, well enough to study all his subjects in it?  
I can't!

Catherine




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 08:15:29 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:15:29 -0000
Subject: Warlocks
In-Reply-To: <14.142689bb.28335c4e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dtcv1+lfos@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18823

Could Warlock be a reference to older Wizards? 
If this is true there could be female Warlocks. 
*Deja Vue, have I mentioned this before?* 
This group could gather occationally to discuss rules 
like Dragon breeding. Within this group there could be  
Chief Warlocks that are appointed to lead.  

Bugg ,  Obsession now at 75%  
Unicorn hair, Willow, 10 inches. 
"It's really the wand that chooses the wizard"  Ollivander.


Jenny from ravenclaw wrote:  
I looked up both 'wizard' and 'warlock' and found nearly 
identical definitions.  When I looked up 'hag', 'witch' was 
part of the definition.  So what's the difference?  

Joywitch wrote: 
I got the impression that the word "warlock" was used sort of 
the way we use the term "gentleman."  Sort of formal, sort of 
polite, often referring to customers in a retail establishment, 
but also sort of tongue-in-cheek, as in "the group of rowdy 
gentlemen in the corner."


Nov 10, 2000  Rita wrote: 
SS says dragon breeding was outlawed by Warlocks 
Convention of 1709 (and Dumbledore's letterhead says he is Chf. 
Warlock, Chf. of what is not clear). In CoS,, Ron says that his 
father is overburdened with work as, in the office there is only 
him and an old warlock named Perkins. There is a reference to the 
International Warlock Convention of 1289, and one of the boys says 
he comes from nine generations of witches and warlocks. PoA, page 
42 of UK paperback says 'wild-looking warlocks' and page 149 says 
'a bunch of rowdy warlocks'.

I used to like the idea that in HP universe, 'warlock' means an 
elected representative, therefore can be either witch or wizard. 
Chf. Warlock is prestigeous enough to be listed on the Headmaster's 
letterhead, and electec representatives are perfectly capable of 
getting rowdy in a bar. I can fantasize that Perkins being 'an old 
warlock' implies that he is useless at the job because he was given 
it as a retirement (defeat) gift by his old colleagues. But I can't 
fit 'nine generations of witches and warlocks' into that theory 
except by claiming that it was a typo 








From anglinsbees at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 09:25:40 2001
From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (Ellen & John Anglin)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:25:40 -0000
Subject: Wizards, witches, hags and warlocks- Language.
In-Reply-To: <14.142689bb.28335c4e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9dth2k+j508@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18824

> In a message dated 5/15/2001 8:37:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> meboriqua at a... writes:

> "Warlock" comes from a word meaning "oath breaker." This was 
usually assigned 
> to Witches or Wizards who broke oaths to expose fellow magic 
practitioners 
> (especially during the European Witch trials and the Inquisition). 
It's also 
> associated with people (usually men) who practice dark magic. 
> 
> Wizard and Witch mean the same thing. In days of old, they were 
gender 
> specific, with Wizard being male and Witch being female. Modern day 
Wiccans 
> refer to themselves as Witches whether they are male or female, 
however. 
> 
> The term "hag" is usually used to describe an old Witch. In Neo 
Pagan 
> worship, it's also a term used for the Crone aspect of the Goddess.
> 
> Toby
> who hopes she's not starting another holy war.....


Um, No holy war here, 

But you really need to do better research before delving into 
Linguistics- and I do not count any of the New age Dreck published By 
Llewelyn Publishing as good research.

The definaitions mentioned above are common misconceptions among 
those who practise new age religions.  Unfortunately, most of the 
books published for modern "Wiccans" are of questionable scholarship. 
Very Questionable scholarship. (I can point out so many obvious 
errors in many popular books- but I'm not about to go into that here- 
It is not the proper place.)

I am no linguist, but I have been told by scholars I trust, that most 
of the definitions and explanations for Witch, Wizard and Warlock 
given commonly in New age publications are open to a LOT of debate.  
Different Languages, Dialects, and poor previous translations from 
other languages have all caused a lot of myth and misconception to 
creep in. (Not to mention skewed meanings caused by repeated 
retranslation.- Kind of like the old game of telephone.)

What is important here, is what JK Rowling means when she says witch, 
wizard or warlock- not what a classical theologan meant, or what one 
of Llwelyn Publishings authors "Channeled".  (And there is no other 
explanation for some of the stuff published!)  

In any case, I sure like the positive spin that the whole Harry 
Potter phenominon has put on all of these words.  Kids today no 
longer think exclusively of the wicked witch of the west, and the 
evil witch in the gingerbread cottage when the word Witch is 
mentioned.  Before Harry the only positive associations most people 
could come up with was Glinda the good witch, and Samantha Stevens 
from "Bewitched".  Witch is definately becoming a more positive word, 
tho there is still a long way to go.

"Wizard" Has had better press all along.  Merlin, Gandalf, The 
Pinball Wizard, and Dungeons and Dragons have all cast positive light 
on the word. Someone can be a wizard with computers, or anything else 
where a certain skill or knowledge is required.  While thre always 
have been evil wizards, they have been balanced quite nicely by good 
examples.

"Warlock" is a much more negative term.  I have heard the original 
meaning came from "poisoner" "Betrayer" or turncoat, but I wouldn't 
begin to pretend that these associations came from the "Burning 
times"  If they are true, they are probably much older.  The original 
term in the bible that was translated into "Thou shalt not suffer a 
witch to live" referred to not suffering a poisoner to live.  The 
roots behind warlock are probably at least as ancient.  It would take 
a more serious scholar than I to say.  

The only vaguely positive use of the term warlock I can think of is 
from the TV series "Bewitched"- can any of you come up with others?

Why don't we play a word association game, and come up with a list of 
images, characters and associations for these words- What do you all 
think of?

Ellen




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 16 10:52:23 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 06:52:23 EDT
Subject: IIRC?
Message-ID: <a2.142fbf4d.2833b5e7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18825

In a message dated 5/16/2001 2:23:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
catlady at wicca.net writes:


> IIRC
> 

I've seen this used a lot, but I have no idea what you guys are talking 
about.  :-) Could someone please explain it. 

Thanks!
Toby



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 16 11:13:40 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 07:13:40 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizards, witches, hags and warlocks- Language.
Message-ID: <ad.ae6b846.2833bae4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18826

In a message dated 5/16/2001 5:27:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
anglinsbees at yahoo.com writes:


> But you really need to do better research before delving into 
> Linguistics- and I do not count any of the New age Dreck published By 
> Llewelyn Publishing as good research.

Before any more assumptions are made about how much "research" I've done, let 
me again stress that my original definitions were a shortened version. I 
could, and can, say much more about them, but I did not for fear of imposing 
my "new age" beliefs on the group. I was under the impression that the 
question was asked to in order to get a "real life" answer, and now how 
Rowling meant them in her book. As such, I gave the common answers that most 
of us give when asked these questions. In Wiccan society, however, the 
answers are a lot more involved. Since this is not a Wiccan list, I didn't 
feel it appropriate. (and FYI, I am no fan of Llewelyn publishing).

> 
> The definaitions mentioned above are common misconceptions among 
> those who practise new age religions.  Unfortunately, most of the 
> books published for modern "Wiccans" are of questionable scholarship. 
> Very Questionable scholarship. (I can point out so many obvious 
> errors in many popular books- but I'm not about to go into that here- 
> It is not the proper place.)

There are also some wonderful books out there about Pagan history. From what 
I've been able to tell, though, most "scholarly" texts on the Witch Trials 
and such are written from a very slanted POV. Even modern day dictionaries 
define a Witch as someone who makes a pact with the Devil for supernatural 
powers. It's rubbish, but people accept it because it's a long held 
misconception.

> 
> I am no linguist, but I have been told by scholars I trust, that most 
> of the definitions and explanations for Witch, Wizard and Warlock 
> given commonly in New age publications are open to a LOT of debate.  
> Different Languages, Dialects, and poor previous translations from 
> other languages have all caused a lot of myth and misconception to 
> creep in. (Not to mention skewed meanings caused by repeated 
> retranslation.- Kind of like the old game of telephone.)

I'll give you this one. There are many things about these old words that have 
been lost, and tracing their roots is sometimes like putting a puzzle 
together. 

> 
> What is important here, is what JK Rowling means when she says witch, 
> wizard or warlock- not what a classical theologan meant, or what one 
> of Llwelyn Publishings authors "Channeled".  (And there is no other 
> explanation for some of the stuff published!)  

My mistake. Again, I thought the question was about "real life" definitions, 
not how they are in the books. (I also must reiterate, I'm no fan of 
Llewelyn. My perspective comes from learning at the hands of others, not 
reading out of a second rate new age book. But like I said before, I didn't 
think the full-on diatribe was appropriate for this list.

> 
> In any case, I sure like the positive spin that the whole Harry 
> Potter phenominon has put on all of these words.  Kids today no 
> longer think exclusively of the wicked witch of the west, and the 
> evil witch in the gingerbread cottage when the word Witch is 
> mentioned.  Before Harry the only positive associations most people 
> could come up with was Glinda the good witch, and Samantha Stevens 
> from "Bewitched".  Witch is definately becoming a more positive word, 
> tho there is still a long way to go.

I agree. However, it sometimes makes it more difficult to use the term if it 
is your religion. "Oh you're a Witch! Can you move objects across the room?" 
And so on. But, I think that will always be the case. There are too many 
stereotypes and misconceptions to work convince everyone that it's an actual 
religion, and "real" people practice it.

> 
> "Wizard" Has had better press all along.  Merlin, Gandalf, The 
> Pinball Wizard, and Dungeons and Dragons have all cast positive light 
> on the word. Someone can be a wizard with computers, or anything else 
> where a certain skill or knowledge is required.  While thre always 
> have been evil wizards, they have been balanced quite nicely by good 
> examples.

Well, D&D hasn't always had good press either. 

> 
> "Warlock" is a much more negative term.  I have heard the original 
> meaning came from "poisoner" "Betrayer" or turncoat, but I wouldn't 
> begin to pretend that these associations came from the "Burning 
> times"  If they are true, they are probably much older.  The original 
> term in the bible that was translated into "Thou shalt not suffer a 
> witch to live" referred to not suffering a poisoner to live.  The 
> roots behind warlock are probably at least as ancient.  It would take 
> a more serious scholar than I to say.  

The Witch Trial theory is but one. As I shall say a third time, I didn't 
think it appropriate to elaborate.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Wed May 16 11:36:53 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Maria)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:36:53 +0200
Subject: A sincere apology to all of you   Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?
References: <9drdkj+72if@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001201c0ddfc$84b00880$fb6c74d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 18827

+There is only one way to begin and end, and that is to say I am sincerely sorry for the offence given. It is better not to offer any type of excuse, but to say simply that I was deeply affected to see how much offence I gave. The intention was not sexist, truly, simply poorly expressed...very poorly as I can now see.

May I also thank Mr. Vander Ark for expressing himself as a true gentleman...with great gentleness.  It was something beautiful to see, even if I am the culprit who called it forth from him.  No, don't leave the discussion.  That is for me to do.  

Please, one and all, forgive my rashness in answering and for bringing such a cloud on a wonderful group.  It really isn't true --you can't teach an old dog a new trick-- one can always learn, especially if people are willing to be kind in helping.  God bless you, Mr. Vander Ark and Amy.

Maria
L.D.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Vander Ark 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:14 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lumen Dei" <lumen_dei at f...> wrote:
  > Well, well.  I find it interesting that the two who took exception 
  to my reflection on "Expecto Patronus" are both men...


  Whoa. Okay, deep breath...

  1) I do not take exception to your reflection at all. I loved it. 
  There are many ways to interpret the books, which is why we all love 
  them so. They're deeper than most books. I enjoy and appreciate many 
  people's reflections on anything Harry Potter.

  2) "are both men..." This has honestly made as close to angry as 
  anything on this list has ever done. Those who have read my postings 
  over the months and years know that I keep a pretty cool head. I do 
  not mind stating my opinion and certainly don't mind being disagreed 
  with. I agreed that my "expectorare" was not as good a choice for the 
  Latin root for "expecto" and even changed my Lexicon entry to reflect 
  my new understanding. I am always willing to learn. But to imply that 
  the reason I don't think that JKR is intentionally making a social 
  statement in her choice of a particular spell incantation is because 
  I'm a man is wrong and is offensive. I can deconstruct with the best 
  of them and I am perfectly capable of reaching non-sexist, unbiased 
  conclusions about things like this. I'm a songwriter, for pity's 
  sake, so I can certainly see the more poetic side of things in life, 
  even though I'm a man. I certainly would never suggest that you went 
  the poetic route because you're female. That would be equally as 
  offensive.

  Okay, another deep breath.

  I am removing myself from this discussion - sadly, because I was 
  enjoying it quite a bit - but I think for the best. I have better 
  ways to spend my time.

  Steve Vander Ark
  The Harry Potter Lexicon
  http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed May 16 11:42:40 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:42:40 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] IIRC?
In-Reply-To: <a2.142fbf4d.2833b5e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIECEDJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 18828

Rita used the following acronym: <<<IIRC>>>

And Toby asked: <<<I've seen this used a lot, but I have no idea what you guys
are talking about.  :-) Could someone please explain it.>>>

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

This, and lots of other commonly used acronyms are details in the file:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm


Simon
--
"I'm referred to, I see, as 'the biggest banker in modern publishing'. Now
there's a line that needed the celebrated Guardian proof-reading." - Terry
Pratchett
---------------------------------------------------------------------------






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 11:54:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:54:53 -0000
Subject: PoA 5, innocent RL
Message-ID: <9dtpqd+521f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18829

Re: Why Remus was on the train

I'm surprised by how many listies think a major reason Remus was on 
the train was to protect Harry from the Dementors.  It makes sense 
given that he's Hogwarts's DADA expert, but otherwise, this never 
occurred to me.  Do you think Dumbledore knows that Harry is going to 
be affected by Dementors more strongly than most students?  How would 
he or anyone know that Harry has buried memories of his parents' 
deaths?  Or are you saying that given Dumbledore's dislike of the 
Dementors, and his fear that they would search the train at some 
point, he wanted Remus there for the sake of =all= of the students?

I assumed that insofar as Remus is a plant and not just traveling by 
train because he's ill/poor, he's there to guard against Sirius.  The 
MOM has made sure Harry is accompanied by adult wizards ever since 
Sirius's escape, and it would make sense that Fudge et al would 
ask Dumbledore to ask one of his staff to be on the train to keep an 
eye on things.  It could be any of them, but it's Remus because of his 
other reasons to use the train, and/or because Dumbledore wants him to 
know that he trusts him to be on the right side despite his friendship 
with Sirius.  Assigning him the job of protecting Harry from Sirius 
would be a very Dumbledorean way to convey that trust.

Maybe I'm just stuck in those moments when the book was still 
unfolding for me for the first time (I always wish I could relive that 
with my favorite books) and I didn't know there was anything for Harry 
to fear except Sirius Black, so I assumed that that was why the 
professor was there.  (Either that or for some nefarious purpose.  I 
thought he was a very suspicious character.  For one thing, I was 
going by the dictum, "Never trust a DADA professor any farther than 
you can throw him."  Then there was all that improbable sleeping, and 
then handing out chocolate to make nice . . . even the gentle voice 
Jim Dale gave him couldn't assuage my suspicions.)

Now, however, I start hyperventilating when someone suggests Lupin 
might go over to the Death Eaters.  Never!  Not my Remus!  IMO Sirius 
never had good reason to suspect him of being the spy; it was a case 
of understandable paranoia, combined with "who else could it be?," 
perhaps combined with suspicious-seeming innocent behavior that we 
don't know about (could be anything--unexplained absences, getting 
caught looking through James and Lily's medicine chest, whatever).

Amy Z
who doesn't take this stuff personally or anything weird like that, oh 
no




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 12:57:29 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sketch:  Care of Magical Creatures Class
In-Reply-To: <9dsohp+cvfc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010516125729.3807.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18830


Oh, neato keen poem pbnesbit! Liked it lots!

--- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote:
> 1.  Why do you think Hagrid likes monsters?  (He obviously knows 
>     about creatures other than dangerous ones, i.e., unicorns)

This is going to sound terribly obvious and shallow of me, but because
on some level he sees himself as one? Of course I don't know this for
certain and not having my book with me, can't recite canonical
evidence. But heck, he's half-giant, the wizarding world sees giants as
a sort of monster, how could he not think himself monster on some
level?

He also might like monsters because they are a match for him. He's big
and strong enough to go head to head. Doesn't have to worry about being
gentle? I know, I know, I'm stretching here...

> 3.  Do you think Hagrid's teaching the classes about these creatures
>     for a reason (will they have to face them in the next three
>     books?).  Or is is just because he finds them interesting? 

How about it's just part of the curriculum? I mean, in school there are
certain subjects and ideas that must be taught. I don't see why it
isn't the same for magic school. And, of course, Hagrid has some
control over certain subjects, so its also part interest.

> 4.  When Hagrid "gets in hot water" with his "interestin' creatures",
> he teaches them about something rather innocuous.  Why?  

Well, he lost his confidence. I mean, having a student hurt on the very
first day is a blow. I would back-pedal as well if I were in that
situation. IMO, it would take someone with stronger self-confidence
than Hagrid to shrug off that situation.

> 5.  Would you like to be in Hagrid's class? 

Lord, no! Unless I could just watch from a distance. Except for unicorn
day! <smiles dreamily> I am *not* an animal person and don't
particularly like holding/touching animals or caring for them. But I
like watching them.

~Amber


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From lmrourke at snet.net  Wed May 16 13:54:05 2001
From: lmrourke at snet.net (lmrourke at snet.net)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:54:05 -0000
Subject: conjuring things - Remus - Blaise - Green Eyes - Harry-Tom - Warlock -
In-Reply-To: <3B021255.20D9B014@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9du0pt+10q0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18831

-


CatLady wrote:


-. I'm pretty sure that Remus's
> suitcase was labeled Professor Remus J. Lupin when the kids first 
saw
> him 'asleep' on the train.

Actually his suitcase only had Professor R.J. Lupin written on it.


> Come to think on it, he turned into a wolf and ran off into the 
woods
> ... he DIDN'T turn into a wolf and turn to Ron manacled beside him 
and
> bite his throat out ... that might be quite a high degree of
> self-control considering what is said about werewolves' irresistible
> compulsion to attack humans....

I think the only reason he didn't go after Ron was because Sirius 
transformed into his dog form and prevented him. Then after fighting 
with Sirius, Lupin ran off into the forest.

Lisa R.  (who was also tipped off to Lupin true nature by just his 
last name ^_^)





From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May 16 14:17:03 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:17:03 -0000
Subject: A sincere apology to all of you   Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?
In-Reply-To: <001201c0ddfc$84b00880$fb6c74d5@PoorClares>
Message-ID: <9du24v+8fk0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18832

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Maria" <lumen_dei at f...> wrote:
> +There is only one way to begin and end, and that is to say I am 
sincerely sorry for the offence given. It is better not to offer any 
type of excuse, but to say simply that I was deeply affected to see 
how much offence I gave. The intention was not sexist, truly, simply 
poorly expressed...very poorly as I can now see.

Apology gladly accepted. I wasn't ever angry, just surprised. 

> 
> May I also thank Mr. Vander Ark for expressing himself as a true 
gentleman...with great gentleness.

Now I'm surprised again. But thanks. (and it's Steve...)

>  No, don't leave the discussion.  That is for me to do.  

How about if nobody leaves anything? I like that path the best.

So anyway...

"It's okay. Forget it."
     -- Harry Potter to Ron Weasley, GF20

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 14:20:28 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:20:28 -0000
Subject: Wizards, witches, hags and warlocks- Language.
In-Reply-To: <9dth2k+j508@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9du2bc+ksul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18833

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ellen & John Anglin" <anglinsbees at y...> 
wrote:
> Um, No holy war here, 
> 
> But you really need to do better research before delving into 
> Linguistics- and I do not count any of the New age Dreck published
> By Llewelyn Publishing as good research.
> 
> The definaitions mentioned above are common misconceptions among 
> those who practise new age religions.  Unfortunately, most of the 
> books published for modern "Wiccans" are of questionable
> scholarship.  Very Questionable scholarship. (I can point out so
> many obvious errors in many popular books- but I'm not about to go
> into that here-It is not the proper place.)

Agreed, on both points.

For those who prefer a strictly etymological approach, independent
of definition wrangling, here's the origins in English per m-w.com:

hag: Middle English hagge demon, old woman

Webster's Revised carries this further, relating it to AS
"haegtesse" = "witch"; OHG "hagazussa".  These are suggested to
be related to "hex" (Modern German for "witch" is "Hexe"), but in
turn it's further related back to the roots of "hedge" and "haw",
where the notion of "hedge" or "thicket" is tied in to "woodlands".
The concept being that the edge of a property was the area that had
not been deforested.  Later, "hedge" would be restricted to the
greenery used to border a property.  Thus, "hagazussa" is suggested
to have meant a "woman of the forest" and transitively, a "wild or
crazed woman".


warlock: Middle English warloghe, from Old English w[AE]rloga one
that breaks faith, the Devil, from w[AE]r faith, troth + -loga (from
lEogan to lie); akin to Old English w[AE]r true 


wizard: Middle English wysard, from wis, wys wise

The "-ard" of wizard is from the same root as the "-ard", "-art" of
"drunkard", "braggart", "coward", "sluggard", etc. which is cognate
to the English word "hard".  The suffix is used to express the
concept of being excessively or habitually whatever quality is
expressed in the first root.


Of all the etymologies, "witch" is the most complicated.

Merriam-Webster sees kinship with an Old German root for "holy":

witch: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine,
wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken
to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High
German wIh holy -- more at VICTIM

A contrasting etymology for witch given by the American Heritage
Dictionary, extrapolates the root wicca/wicce to the presumed
suffixed "*weg" + "*yo" in the form of a hypothesized Germanic root
word "*wikkjaz" = "necromancer", i.e. someone who wakes the dead.
(Cf. English, "to wake"; Latin, "vigil"; German, "wecken", etc.)

And Webster's Revised leads back to a number of Germanic words with
meanings along the lines of "to hex", "to bewitch", except the Low 
German "wikken" = "to predict", which would relate it squarely back
to the sight root (IE "*weid-") found in "wizard" and numerous
other words.

The lack of clarity in this etymology comes largely from the age
of the word and the fact that two distinct IE roots *weid- (to
see), *weg- (to be strong, lively), and an OHG root *wIh- (holy)
are all possible sources.


I think that the etymologies put an interesting spin on their current
connotations, with "wisdom" being a positive attribute, and "oath-
breaking", nonconformist behavior (living away from society in the
forest), and "visions" and/or even "necromancy" being seen as things
to fear and avoid....

....Craig




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 14:23:25 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:23:25 -0000
Subject: A sincere apology to all of you   Latin (was boggart) patronus or father?
In-Reply-To: <9du24v+8fk0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9du2gt+hsug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18834

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Maria" <lumen_dei at f...> wrote:
> >  No, don't leave the discussion.  That is for me to do.  
> 
> How about if nobody leaves anything? I like that path the best.

Same here.

> So anyway...
> 
> "It's okay. Forget it."
>      -- Harry Potter to Ron Weasley, GF20

Very appropriate.  :^)

....Craig




From margdean at erols.com  Wed May 16 13:56:16 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:56:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] conjuring things - Remus - Blaise - Green Eyes -  Harry-Tom - Warlock -
References: <3B021255.20D9B014@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3B028700.B6A9F8C0@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18835

Catlady wrote:

> Amy Z wrote:
> > Snape usually calls Dumbledore "Headmaster," (snip) we
> > don't learn Lupin's first name until Sirius uses it near the end
> > of PA (ch 18)
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Snape called Dumbledore 'Albus' after Dumbledore
> called him to heel when he was snapping at Karkaroff in the room where
> the unexpectedly FOUR champions gathered.

No, though he does call him "Dumbledore" in that scene.  Crouch
Sr. calls him "Albus," though.


--Margaret Dean, who just read over the scene to make sure
  <margdean at erols.com>



From dorband at uwp.edu  Wed May 16 15:15:34 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:15:34 -0000
Subject: tidbits: fighting dragons, toads
In-Reply-To: <9drou7+1177c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9du5im+a2hi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18836


> 1 - When Harry was trying to outfly the Hungarian Horntail, she 
> wouldn't rise up and leave her eggs unprotected. What made her 
> finally take flight after him? 
> 
>    Harry rose a few more feet, and she let out a roar of
>    exasperation. He was like a fly to her, a fly she was 
>    longing to swat; her tail thrashed again, but he was too high 
>    to reach now...She shot fire into the air, which he
>    dodged...Her jaws opened wide...
> 
>    "Come on," Harry hissed, swerving tantalizingly above her, 
>    "come on, come and get me...up you get now..."
> 
>    And then she reared, spreading her great, black, leathery 
>    wings at last, as wide as those of a small airplane - and 
>    Harry dived...
> 
> So what happened? Why did she finally decide to come up into the 
air? 
> My guess is that it's the same reason that Nagini obeys Voldemort 
and 
> the same reason that the Basilisk obeyed Tom Riddle and Salazar 
> Slytherin...and the same reason that the snake obeyed Harry at the 
> Dueling Club. That hissing Harry was doing was Parseltongue, 
although 
> he probably didn't even realize it. He ORDERED her into the air and 
> she obeyed. After all, when Harry was looking at the image of a 
snake 
> on the taps in Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, he felt that he could only 
> speak Parseltongue when faced with a real snake, and the Horntail 
> look to Harry, just a few second before, like a snake weaving before 
> a charmer.
> 

Steve,
I like this explanation so much; I posited something similar back in 
August(8-26/8-27)when the following discussions took place:



From:  "Joywitch " <joym999 at a...>
                 Date:  Sat Aug 26, 2000  11:14 pm
                 Subject:  Re: Nagini/basilisk/snake ramblings

 <Brian wrote> > > As I read CoS, I didn't think that a basilisk was 
anthing other than > > a snake (I'd never heard the term 
*basilisk...<snip>

<Joywitch wrote>     > It is a snake in CoS.  I think JKR must have 
modified the  mythological basilisk to suit her purposes 

 According to The American Heritage Dictionary of the English 
 Language, a basilisk is

  basilisk (b?s?e-l?sk?, b?z?-) noun
  1.      A legendary serpent or dragon with lethal breath and glance.
  2.      Any of various tropical American lizards of the genus 
          Basiliscus, characterized by a crest on the head, back, and 
          tail and the ability to run on the hind legs.

                 and a serpent is

                 serpent (s?r?pent) noun
                 1.      A reptile of the order Serpentes; a snake.

                 In other words a mythological basilisk is a snake or 
a dragon, and a real basilisk is a type of lizard.

<Brian wrote>
This may have been spoken of earlier regarding the serpent, basilisk 
and dragon; we know that in HP, at least, regular snakes (the boa)    
and basilisks of the serpentine variety speak/understand parseltongue. 
 We have no indication yet that the basilisks of the dragon variety 
 speak parseltongue.  Does it seem reasonable to suggest that it takes 
 so many highly trained wizards to control the dragons (in GoF)
because they're not communicating very well - in fact NO ONE in the 
wizard world communicates very well with the dragons, because the 
*dragons speak parseltongue*! Nagini will advise Voldemort of this and 
they will begin efforts to recruit the dragons to their evil cause!  
With Hagrid's(and Norbert's) help, Harry will convince the dragons to 
unite with the wizarding world to conquer Voldemort and 
 Nagini...We shall see the Battle of the Basilisks/Snakes/Dragons!!!!!

       

--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
                 > > because the *dragons 
                 > > speak parseltongue*!
                 > 
                 > Then why didn't Harry catch a hint of them 
screaming  "YOU !! STAY 'WAY FROM MY EGGS"?


                 LOL!!! That was funny!


                 Dragons seem too important, in a magical creature 
kinda way, to have a limited role.  They'll come into play before the 
end of this tale. Thanks for the laugh!


                

I still believe that dragons speak parseltongue; I like Steve's theory 
on how Harry "ordered" the dragon off of her eggs by speaking 
(subconsciously?) in parceltongue; I still believe that dragons will 
play a very important role.  

Brian 

PS - Very impressive resolution to the "Latin" debate. Nicely handled 
by all.  The level of civilized communication on this board is really 
something to behold.  




From manchisco at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 15:30:06 2001
From: manchisco at yahoo.com (Mags)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:30:06 -0000
Subject: ARGUS Filch
In-Reply-To: <9c1rs3+52uj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9du6du+dp3f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18837

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> Here's something interesting:
>  An Argus is a Greek monster with one hundred eyes.  
> 
> Hmmmmm...  Given the fact that people's names can revel things 
about 
> them, like Remus Lupin or Sirius Black....   Hmmm...  Opens up all 
> kinds of possibilities. 
> 
> Stephanie

Argus was a monster sent by Hera to guard Io, one of Zeus' lovers.  
He had 100 eyes so that while some of his eyes slept, he could keep 
some of them open and therefore always keep an eye on his prisoner.  
Hermes put him to sleep by telling him a story (I think it was the 
one about his son Pan) until all his eyes closed and he fell asleep.

Can you tell I'm a Greek Mythology boff?  Well, Filch certainly 
doesn't ever seem to sleep - how many times has he caught people out 
of bed in the middle of the night?  He also has Mrs. Norris to act as 
an extra pair of eyes for him, so I suppose the name is pretty 
appropriate.

Hope I haven't made YOU all fall asleep with this post,

Mags xx




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed May 16 15:37:26 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:37:26 -0000
Subject: tidbits: fighting dragons, toads
In-Reply-To: <9du5im+a2hi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9du6rm+2iih@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18838

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorband at u... wrote:
    
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Brooks R" <brooksar at i...> wrote:
>                  > > because the *dragons 
>                  > > speak parseltongue*!
>                  > 
>                  > Then why didn't Harry catch a hint of them 
> screaming  "YOU !! STAY 'WAY FROM MY EGGS"?
> 
And wouldn't Harry have been able to communicate with Norbert?

Pippin





From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May 16 16:00:05 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:00:05 -0000
Subject: tidbits: fighting dragons, toads
In-Reply-To: <9du6rm+2iih@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9du865+1adr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18839


> > 
> And wouldn't Harry have been able to communicate with Norbert?
> 
> Pippin

Sure. He didn't really realize that he had that power, yet, at least 
not that he would intentionally call upon it. And if he didn't have 
anything particularly pressing to say, the auto-parseltongue thing 
wouldn't happen. 

And there's always the fact that Norbert was a baby who 1) hadn't 
learned to talk yet and 2) had no dragons around him from which to 
learn language.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From dorband at uwp.edu  Wed May 16 16:18:32 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:18:32 -0000
Subject: tidbits: fighting dragons, toads
In-Reply-To: <9du6rm+2iih@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9du98o+urfu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18840

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> > 
> And wouldn't Harry have been able to communicate with Norbert?
> 
> Pippin


--- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
                 wrote: (again, back in August)

> I'm now wondering, if they speak parseltongue, then Harry should've 
    also been able to understand Norbert - unless that gets explained 
by saying that Norbert was so young he hadn't learned to talk yet.


<me>
I don't think that Harry has much of an idea that he's capable of 
speaking/understanding parseltongue during Norbert's stay with Hagrid. 
 He (Harry) doesn't realize he's a parcelmouth until CS.  Although I 
do suggest in my post that Harry *will* communicate with Norbert at a 
later date.

There are MANY holes in this theory - ie, he didn't speak with the 
basilisk in CS, although he *could* have.  Perhaps dragons are not at 
all open to the notion of communicating with humans, this doesn't mean 
they *couldn't*, it just means they aren't so inclined (being dragons 
and all).  Maybe Harry will be the one to break their silence.


at this point I don't intend to say that dragons do, IN FACT, speak 
parseltongue, I was only pointing out that the way JKR seems to be 
using the term *basilisk*, as well as the muggle and mythological 
definitions of that term, lead me to muse about the possibility that 
dragons MIGHT also speak/understand parseltongue.

   I have no proof that dragons speak parseltongue in JKR's world; 
although in other worlds, dragons are very wise and magical 
creatures and probably not only speak parseltongue, but are magically 
multilingual - superior even to Barty Crouch, who speaks all 
manner of tongues and dialects.


                 But since we *are* in JKR's world, there is no 
indication that dragons speak parseltongue.  It is clear, however, 
that both basilisks *and* snakes speak parseltongue in JKR's world.
Since dragons are, to some extent, related to these, I'm comfortable 
speculating that dragons will be shown to be parselmouths, too.


Brian






From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 16:19:49 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:19:49 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9dr5n2+vg62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9du9b5+4g4o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18841

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Ebony wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps I'm just not seeing the problem with giftedness.  
> 
> I have to run and don't have time to hunt up Jim's post, but I 
don't 
> think it claimed Harry needed to be average or that he wasn't 
gifted. 
>  The whole objection to Uberharry (on which I can and will deliver 
an 
> eloquent and longwinded dissertation when I get the time) doesn't 
> rest on the claim that he isn't gifted.  Of course he is!--as you 
say, 
> he's not at all average in his flying/Quidditch talent, in his 
> "emotional intelligence," etc.  The real question is whether he is 
> Everyman or Other.  I plump for the former and I hope and believe 
JKR 
> will also.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> P.S.  Frodo is not at all average either.  He has extraordinary 
> integrity and courage.  But he's still Everyman.  JMHO.
> 
> P.P.S.  I actually think the real issue is more about the concept 
of 
> destiny than anything else.  I don't believe in destiny, I don't 
> find it an interesting concept, and I wonder if a search would turn 
> the word up anywhere in the four books.  But no time now.  I shall 
> return . . .


I agree with every word, Amy. 

As I see it, both Harry and Frodo (and Sam, of course) are ordinary. 
Regular people. Gifted maybe, but not extra-ordinary (the Other, as 
Amy put it). Yes, they achieve great things, but it's presented, IMO, 
as a fulfillment of their potential. The transformation they go 
through is not a transformation of substance. They remain who they 
really are the whole time. For us, the readers, it's a change of 
perception. From viewing them as ordinary, we view them as 
extraordinary, but - and that's the great thing - without losing our 
original conception of their ordinariness (they reamin Everyman in 
our minds). 

I think that that is the true experience of magic - seeing the 
extraordinary *in* the ordinary. Like when you look at a view you see 
every day, and suddenly, because of a change in the light, or a 
moment of quiet, you realize that it is glorious. For one fleeting 
moment you sense that there is no such thing as the mundane. 
(To Ebony - it's not like finding the one four-leaved clover, more 
like suddenly realizing that they are ALL four-leaved.)

For me, that's the main appeal of JKR's vision. The magical is not 
beyond - long ago or years from now, in far lands or deep within the 
sea, in an alternative universe or in Alpha Centauri. It's right 
here, under our very noses - you just need to cross the right barrier 
at the train station, enter a grungy little pub, just look at things 
properly - and it's there.


Naama 

 




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed May 16 16:17:20 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:17:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: talking dragons
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8FAD@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18842

> 
>                  But since we *are* in JKR's world, there is no 
> indication that dragons speak parseltongue.  It is clear, however, 
> that both basilisks *and* snakes speak parseltongue in JKR's world.
> Since dragons are, to some extent, related to these, I'm comfortable 
> speculating that dragons will be shown to be parselmouths, too.

I have strong suspicions that the first language of dragons wouldn't be
parsletongue, because it's unlikely that two species would speak the exact
same language - however, as the species are related, their languages may
also be related enough that a dragon would understand some words spoken in
parsletongue, and therefore the nesting mother understood Harry, at least in
a limited way, much in the same way that a native French speaker can
understand some Creole, as the languages are related - not enough to speak
it fluently, but enough to have a vague comprehension of what someone
speaking Creole is saying. 



From dorband at uwp.edu  Wed May 16 16:36:17 2001
From: dorband at uwp.edu (dorband at uwp.edu)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:36:17 -0000
Subject: talking dragons
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8FAD@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9duaa1+uip3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18843

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
 
> I have strong suspicions that the first language of dragons wouldn't 
be
> parsletongue, because it's unlikely that two species would speak the 
exact
> same language - however, as the species are related, their languages 
may
> also be related enough that a dragon would understand some words 
spoken in
> parsletongue, and therefore the nesting mother understood Harry, at 
least in
> a limited way, much in the same way that a native French speaker can
> understand some Creole, as the languages are related - not enough to 
speak
> it fluently, but enough to have a vague comprehension of what 
someone
> speaking Creole is saying.


Mostly I agree.  But I believe dragons are magically multilingual to 
the extent that they can understand/communicate with just about any  
magical creature *if they choose to do so.*  I just don't think that 
they choose to do so very often.  I believe that will change in the 
upcoming books; I sense a real strong bond that will develop between 
the wizards, the giants, the dragons and the house elves.  All will 
play a part in V's demise, IMHO.

Brian




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 16:50:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:50:34 -0000
Subject: talking to basilisks (was fighting dragons)
In-Reply-To: <9du98o+urfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dub4q+pmat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18844

Brian wrote:

> <me>
> I don't think that Harry has much of an idea that he's capable of 
> speaking/understanding parseltongue during Norbert's stay with 
Hagrid. 
>  He (Harry) doesn't realize he's a parcelmouth until CS.  Although I 
> do suggest in my post that Harry *will* communicate with Norbert at 
a 
> later date.
> 
> There are MANY holes in this theory - ie, he didn't speak with the 
> basilisk in CS, although he *could* have.  

That hole doesn't have anything to do with whether basilisks speak 
Parseltongue, though, and I think it's easily filled.  By the time he 
gets to the Chamber of Secrets, Harry knows that he's a Parselmouth, 
that he has been hearing the basilisk talk, and that whoever has been 
setting it loose is a Parselmouth too and has been controlling the 
basilisk that way.  Whatever a basilisk is, Harry knows he can talk to 
it.  So why doesn't he say "stay, boy!" to it when it comes after him? 
 Probably because he doesn't think it will heed him, with another 
Parselmouth giving it orders to the contrary.  Probably a good bet.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
 stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------





From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 16 16:59:05 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:59:05 -0000
Subject: talking dragons
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8FAD@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9dubkp+dql2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18845

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> > 
> >                  But since we *are* in JKR's world, there is no 
> > indication that dragons speak parseltongue.  It is clear, 
however, 
> > that both basilisks *and* snakes speak parseltongue in JKR's 
world.
> > Since dragons are, to some extent, related to these, I'm 
comfortable 
> > speculating that dragons will be shown to be parselmouths, too.
> 
> I have strong suspicions that the first language of dragons 
wouldn't be
> parsletongue, because it's unlikely that two species would speak 
the exact
> same language - however, as the species are related, their 
languages may
> also be related enough that a dragon would understand some words 
spoken in
> parsletongue, and therefore the nesting mother understood Harry, at 
least in
> a limited way, much in the same way that a native French speaker can
> understand some Creole, as the languages are related - not enough 
to speak
> it fluently, but enough to have a vague comprehension of what 
someone
> speaking Creole is saying.

Yes, there is some support for this, as the Brazilian snake in the 
zoo called Harry 'amigo'.  Would Hebridean Blacks speak Gaelic-
parseltongue or English-parseltongue?

David




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 16 17:40:08 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:40:08 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] IIRC?
Message-ID: <93.ad51119.28341578@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18846

In a message dated 5/16/01 7:43:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
simon at hp.inbox.as writes:


> Rita used the following acronym: <<<IIRC>>>
> 
> And Toby asked: <<<I've seen this used a lot, but I have no idea what you 
> guys
> are talking about.  :-) Could someone please explain it.>>>
> 
> IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
> 
> This, and lots of other commonly used acronyms are details in the file:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm
> 

Thanks, Simon! I've been able to catch on to the others, but this one stumped 
me.  :-)

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 17:54:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:54:10 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9du9b5+4g4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dues2+eeh1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18847

Wow.  Naama's post was so poetic that I feel like I'm kind of 
shuffling in after the grand finale with my oh-so-ordinary 
observations, but for what they're worth, here they are.

Ebony wrote:

>If he's Joe Public, they'll kill him.  If he's not, they'll think
>twice before they try.

I think they'll think twice anyway, because they won't be sure.  Why 
did Tom Riddle sic a basilisk on him, sit and watch him die of poison, 
etc. before getting desperate and raising his wand?  Why didn't he 
just kill him with the wand immediately?  I think he's afraid of him. 
 He knows from Ginny that his adult self failed to kill Harry, and he 
doesn't fully understand why (I know Harry tells him it's because of 
his mother's love, but if I were TR I still wouldn't be entirely 
sure).  The Death Eaters know that Voldemort has twice tried to kill 
Harry and very weird, dangerous things have happened to V as a result. 
 Add Harry's having killed him, and how many of them are going to take 
the risk that he's mortal?

For my part, I don't for a moment think that Harry can't be hurt by 
Voldemort.  I think if V had skipped the duelling drama and just cut 
Harry's throat while he had him bound to the tombstone, that would 
have been the end of the story.  To some extent, Voldemort is 
right-Harry has escaped him through luck.  But not only luck:  also 
through Lily's sacrifice and, in later encounters, Harry's own 
strength of character (cf our discussion on why Harry's wand forced 
Voldemort's to regurgitate its spells and not the other way around).  
It's =possible= that from his birth there has been something about 
Harry that makes it inherently impossible for Voldemort to kill him, 
but I doubt it.  

As for Average Harry or Joe Public--I am an anti-fan of the Uberharry 
train of thought (::gasps of surprise from list::), but I'm not too 
crazy about these titles either.  Harry isn't necessarily average; 
he's particularly talented in various ways, as you point out (though 
not necessarily more talented than lots of other wizards), and besides 
that, his mysterious history makes it clear that he is unique (at 
least vis-a-vis Voldemort) and he and everyone else knows it.  The 
question is in what way he is unique.  To use Naama's distinction, is 
he unique in substance or is he just a boy who, like many ordinary 
people, can be quite extraordinary if he fulfills his potential?  How 
JKR handles this will have a big impact on whether HP stays one of my 
all-time favorites or ends up being disappointing.  I'm not too 
worried.  One of her biggest themes is that we are shaped by our 
choices and that Seeing notwithstanding, the future is indeterminate. 
 If Harry is triumphant it will be not because he was destined to be 
so ("the stars have been read wrongly before now," after all) but 
because of what he chose to make of his considerable talents.

But I see the hands waving and the frustrated voices shouting:  "Then 
why did Voldemort want to kill him?!"  There's no denying that there 
was something about the 15-month-old Harry that made him a threat to 
Voldemort, or at least Voldemort thought so.  I like Kimberly's 
thought best (way back at message 9358) about how prophecy and 
uniqueness and choice can all be factors.  Even if there proves to 
have been a prophecy that this boy would defeat Voldemort and the 
prophecy comes true, it doesn't mean that  that or any other prophecy 
=had= to come true in the HP universe.  We are not puppets acting out 
a drama whose end has already been written; our choices are real and 
make a difference.  I love what The Phantom Tollbooth has to say about 
this.  After Milo succeeds in his quest, Azaz and the Mathemagician 
let him in on the secret they'd only hinted at before:  that his quest 
was impossible.  So much for prophecies (but if they'd told him it was 
impossible before, methinks the prophecy would have come true).  I 
think Dumbledore would take a similar approach.  He believes that 
people's decisions, not to mention blind chance, can overrule what 
would seem to be fate.

Another theme that is just hinted at in the books so far, but that 
supports the idea that Harry is talented-brave-strong-etc. but not 
superhuman, is that Voldemort is not the same thing as Evil Itself.  
Defeating him will not end evil for all time.  He is just the latest, 
and one of the most powerful, in a history of dark magic that will 
always have to be fought.  Why then should Harry be Unique in All the 
History of Wizardry?  He may well be uniquely suited to fight 
Voldemort-they mirror one another-but other dark wizards will arise 
and will have to be fought by other people, bringing the same 
strengths Harry has brought to this struggle:  courage, integrity, 
perseverance (the positive side of his stubbornness), a sound 
conscience, and basic human kindness.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
   "This is a =girls'= bathroom," she said, eyeing
 Ron and Harry suspiciously. "=They're= not girls."
   "No," Hermione agreed.
                   -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
----------------------------------------------------




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May 16 18:40:54 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:40:54 -0700
Subject: "Stand aside, girl!"
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010516113824.03081c80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18848

Why does Voldemort tell Lily to "stand aside" and later
tell Harry "She didn't have to die"?  Since when does V
make an effort to avoid killing someone if he can (Cedric)?


                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May 16 18:47:50 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:47:50 -0700
Subject: Are Wizards protected by Magna Carta?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010516114208.030e6940@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18849

I was watching the movie _The Winslow Boy_ (the original with
Robert Donat), and as those who have seen it know, the big issue
in that film is whether *any* citizen of the United Kingdom
can be condemned without a trial.  So is Sirius Black a subject
of the Queen?  If he is, then his imprisonment is definitely a
breach of Magna Carta!

It also occurs to me that his imprisonment without a trial is
rendered even more heinous considering all the Death Eaters
who got off on the claim they were under the Imperious Curse.
Why couldn't Sirius have been under the Imperious Curse too?


                         -- Dave




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed May 16 18:50:19 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 18:50:19 -0000
Subject: PoA 5, innocent RL
In-Reply-To: <9dtpqd+521f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dui5b+lo9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18850

Amy Z wrote:

> Re: Why Remus was on the train
> 
> I'm surprised by how many listies think a major reason Remus was on 
> the train was to protect Harry from the Dementors.  It makes sense 
> given that he's Hogwarts's DADA expert, but otherwise, this never 
> occurred to me.  Do you think Dumbledore knows that Harry is going 
> to be affected by Dementors more strongly than most students?  How 
> would he or anyone know that Harry has buried memories of his 
> parents' deaths?  Or are you saying that given Dumbledore's dislike 
> of the Dementors, and his fear that they would search the train at 
> some point, he wanted Remus there for the sake of =all= of the 
> students?


I assumed that Remus was on the train to help protect all the 
students from the Dementors not just Harry. He's more than likely had 
some parctical experience with Dementors and I don't really see the 
food cart witch being all that helpful.



> 
> I assumed that insofar as Remus is a plant and not just traveling 
by train because he's ill/poor, he's there to guard against Sirius.  
The MOM has made sure Harry is accompanied by adult wizards ever 
since Sirius's escape, and it would make sense that Fudge et al would 
ask Dumbledore to ask one of his staff to be on the train to keep an 
eye on things.  <snip>
 Maybe I'm just stuck in those moments when the book was still 
> unfolding for me for the first time (I always wish I could relive 
that with my favorite books) and I didn't know there was anything for 
Harry to fear except Sirius Black, so I assumed that that was why the 
> professor was there.  (Either that or for some nefarious purpose.  
I thought he was a very suspicious character.  For one thing, I was 
> going by the dictum, "Never trust a DADA professor any farther than 
> you can throw him."  

When I first read PoA I thought Remus might some how actually be 
Sirius in desguise until the Shierking Shack scene. It may have been 
foolish to think that but I just knew he was hiding something. I 
don't think that anymore now of course but that was my first thought 
the first time through.


> Now, however, I start hyperventilating when someone suggests Lupin 
> might go over to the Death Eaters.  Never!  Not my Remus!  > 

WHAT! Remus becomes a Deathe Eater! NO WAY!! I'm with you Amy, not 
Remus. He would never become a Death Eater, ever. I think he would 
die first to protect those he loved. ::hopes and prays that that 
never happens::

Cheers,
       Kristin





From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 19:26:46 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9dues2+eeh1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010516192646.27675.qmail@web1605.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18851


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> For my part, I don't for a moment think that Harry can't be hurt by 
> Voldemort.  I think if V had skipped the duelling drama and just cut 
> Harry's throat while he had him bound to the tombstone, that would 
> have been the end of the story.  

I always felt that GOF ended rather...er...lamely. I was biting my
nails all through Wormtail taking Harry's blood and bringing back
Voldemort. My eyes were glued to the page during Voldemort's little
speech. I was expecting something big to happen and then...what?
Voldemort unties Harry, gives his wand back, and says "Let's have a
duel"? Huh? At that point I'm thinking "Has Voldemort gone nutters? I
thought he was a smart villain, not a dumb one". And then there's the
whole mess with the wands connecting and the spells showing up in
reverse. Finally, Harry *gets away* when he plainly shouldn't have (in
my opinion). I finished the book shaking my head in frustration.

I *know* there are good explanations for everything that happened, I've
read them in the short time that I've been on the list. But I still
feel deep inside that the last couple of chapters just didn't live up
to the build-up. It wasn't that I was expecting a happy ending, I was
just expecting something...different.

I'm also of the camp that hopes that Harry doesn't have "Great
Phenomenol Cosmic Powers". If there's anything I'm convinced of, its
that a writer should never give any more help to their character than
is strictly necessary. I'd rather he have regular wizarding powers, or
even be a little deficient in that area. Let him use his head, his
flying skills, his friends, or his heart to defeat Voldemort. Don't let
him be a little powerhouse of energy.

~Amber
 

=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 19:34:50 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <20010516192646.27675.qmail@web1605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010516193450.36893.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18852

> I always felt that GOF ended rather...er...lamely. I was biting my
> nails all through Wormtail taking Harry's blood and bringing back
> Voldemort. My eyes were glued to the page during Voldemort's little
> speech. I was expecting something big to happen and then...what?
> Voldemort unties Harry, gives his wand back, and says "Let's have a
> duel"? Huh? At that point I'm thinking "Has Voldemort gone nutters?


I know "I agree" posts are frowned on but I agree completely with
this.  Lord V. is such a bonehead that I wonder how he's going to
sustain his menace for three more books.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 19:36:40 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:36:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Stand aside, girl!"
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010516113824.03081c80@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010516193640.37131.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18853


--- Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Why does Voldemort tell Lily to "stand aside" and later
> tell Harry "She didn't have to die"?  Since when does V
> make an effort to avoid killing someone if he can (Cedric)?
> 

Well, how about this for the Snape/Lily fans?  Lord V. promised Snape
that he wouldn't kill Lily because it was Snape's price for helping
him with potions or whatever.  

I still think that Snape was the spy who warned Dumbledore what was
going to happen but Snape might want to hedge his bets, as it were.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 19:58:37 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 19:58:37 -0000
Subject: Magna Carta? - Sirius's delay
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010516114208.030e6940@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9dum5d+7tpg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18854

Dave wrote:

> So is Sirius Black a subject
> of the Queen?  If he is, then his imprisonment is definitely a
> breach of Magna Carta!

Let's see.  Maybe this is true, but Sirius has no recourse other than 
to leak the existence of the wizarding world to the Muggles.  What's 
he going to do, get himself a Muggle lawyer and explain the whole 
thing?  

Another possibility is that the British gov't has a pretty good idea 
of what's going on in the wizarding world and knows that the MOM 
is currently operating under what is basically martial law.  

In a sense wizards are British subjects.  They certainly appear to be 
so to their Muggle neighbors (albeit a tad eccentric--bet Archie's the 
village oddball wherever he lives).  However, they seem to be like 
Native Americans--citizens of a sovereign nation within the borders 
of, and sprinkled throughout, another.  The sovereign nation thing 
doesn't go too far in the USA (a Native American accused of a crime is 
tried under US law without any extradition or anything like that, 
right?), but I can see a model in which the British government stays 
out of the MOM's legal affairs as long as it's satisfied that wizards 
aren't roaming the streets killing Muggles.  If the MOM is a little 
hard on someone who's just apparently murdered 12 Muggles, well, 
better that than being too soft on him.  So might go the Muggle 
government's reasoning, anyway.
  
> It also occurs to me that his imprisonment without a trial is
> rendered even more heinous considering all the Death Eaters
> who got off on the claim they were under the Imperious Curse.
> Why couldn't Sirius have been under the Imperious Curse too?

Even if Sirius got the opportunity to make this argument, I bet he 
wouldn't.  Not out of a sense of honor--even Sirius might not be so 
noble as to go to Azkaban rather than lie--but out of despair, shame, 
and guilt.  I don't think Sirius gave a damn what happened to him.  He 
thought he deserved to rot in Azkaban.  

Hmm, I just had another thought though.  Wouldn't he have wanted to 
clear his name, or at least accuse Pettigrew, for the same reason he 
does 12 years later:  to protect Harry?  It seems as if he knew from 
the start that Pettigrew didn't die.  He wouldn't have a chance of 
finding him, one rat among millions, or of proving that it was Peter 
who was the Death Eater, so I guess I can understand why he wouldn't 
even try to explain it to the MOM--but why wasn't he haunted from day 
one by the thought that Peter would try to kill Harry?  Why did it 
only start to bother him 12 years later when he saw his picture?

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------
 "This is the weirdest thing we've ever
 done," Harry said fervently.
       --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-----------------------------------------




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed May 16 20:45:17 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 20:45:17 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <20010516192646.27675.qmail@web1605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9duost+fh0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18855

Amber wrote:
> 
> I'm also of the camp that hopes that Harry doesn't have "Great
> Phenomenol Cosmic Powers". If there's anything I'm convinced of, its
> that a writer should never give any more help to their character 
than
> is strictly necessary. I'd rather he have regular wizarding powers, 
or
> even be a little deficient in that area. Let him use his head, his
> flying skills, his friends, or his heart to defeat Voldemort. Don't 
let
> him be a little powerhouse of energy.


Yes - I know exactly what you mean.  I also was a bit frustrated when 
Voldie turned all sorts of stupid and handed Harry his wand.  I guess 
we can just chalk that one up to plot development.

One of the many things I love about Harry is his ordinariness.  He's 
not handsome like Cedric Diggory, and he's not brilliant like 
Hermione.  He's not even funny like Ron and his twin brothers.  He's 
just... Harry.  Yet there's something about him.  He's that quiet boy 
who sits in the back of the class but no one bothers him because he 
seems to command respect without asking (my mom said that - can't take 
credit, but I agree).  That's why I once mentioned (and I'm sure I 
wasn't not the only one) that Harry's prized possessions are all 
hand-me-downs.  He learned his patronus well, but he's no canary cream 
making animagus of a student.

I think what also makes him so special is his ability to handle 
himself in difficult situations.  He doesn't let his fame get to his 
head.  He doesn't enjoy being Hogwarts Champion.  Yet he deals with 
what he's been given.  He shares things with his friends without 
leaning on them and crying "Pity me!".  I think Harry has an inner 
strength - that *is* his magic.

Hope that made sense!  I could go on about Harry all day.

--jenny from ravenclaw, who is still a bit confused about witches and 
warlocks and such (but less so now), but loved all the definitions and 
etymologies people posted  back!*****************




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 16 20:49:52 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 20:49:52 -0000
Subject: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
In-Reply-To: <9dpr9p+dstv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dup5g+2pcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18856

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
QUESTIONS
 missing out what has already been said:
> 
> 1.  Why was Remus on the train?
> 2.  What do you think Ginny experiences when the Dementors get near?
> 3.  What do you think Neville experiences when the Dementors get near?
> 4.  Just how badly was Malfoy hurt?
> 5.  Why wasn't Remus applauded by everyone when he was introduced as the new DADA teacher?

As well as the point about his shabbiness, the Slytheryns, at least, would have taken their lead from Snape, who was looking at Lupin with loathing and, one imagines, not applauding.  If some of the other teachers were half-hearted, that would have dampened the applause generally.

> 6.  Why is Neville so terrified of Snape?
> 7.  Why do you think Hermione feels she must take all those classes?

Doesn't she *want* to? As well as wanting to achieve, she has an obvious thirst for knowledge of all forms

> 8.  Why does JKR refer to Remus as Lupin?  (She does this with Snape and Dumbledore as well)
> 
> 9.  Is there more to Remus than meets the eye (other than being a 
>     werewolf)? 
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't think of a 10th one.  Care of Magical Creatures 
> summary will be up later.

Suggested 10:  Does the dementor on the train recognise Harry in some sense?  It seems aware of Harry looking at its hand.  Why does Lupin need to patronise (or whatever the word is) it - after all, all the other students were frightened but not demented (kissed), so what was the threat here?  What I have in mind is that the D's may already be working against the MOM and Dumbledore, if not actually for Voldemort, and are targeting Harry - see the Quidditch match and the lakeside later.  Taking out Barty Crouch Jr so he couldn't testify might be part of this, and they might have some sort of hold over Fudge too, warping his judgement.

I did an archive search and couldn't see this had been raised before.

David




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 16 21:02:09 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:02:09 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9duost+fh0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dupsh+10em@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18857

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Amber wrote:
> > 
> > I'm also of the camp that hopes that Harry doesn't have "Great
> > Phenomenal Cosmic Powers"
> 
> One of the many things I love about Harry is his ordinariness.  
> 
> I think what also makes him so special is his ability to handle 
> himself in difficult situations.  

Another ordinary/extroardinary thing about Harry is that he *does* things.  This is brought home quite forcefully by the SPEW episodes.  Hermione has the right idea, but she alienates the elves by her efforts.  Harry has actually set Dobby free and so created a shockwave that will force them to really evaluate their position - and stay as slaves if that's what they really want.  He even sets him free in a way that meant it was Dobby's choice - he didn't have to pick up the sock when Malfoy threw it.

However, no special powers were involved.

David




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 21:14:32 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:14:32 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9dupsh+10em@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9duqjo+r7bm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18858

Jenny wrote:

> > 
> > One of the many things I love about Harry is his ordinariness.  
> > 
> > I think what also makes him so special is his ability to handle 
> > himself in difficult situations.  
> 
David wrote:

> Another ordinary/extroardinary thing about Harry is that he *does* 
>things.  This is brought home quite forcefully by the SPEW episodes. 
>Hermione has the right idea, but she alienates the elves by her 
>efforts.  Harry has actually set Dobby free and so created a 
>shockwave 
>that will force them to really evaluate their position - and stay as 
>slaves if that's what they really want.

Excellent point.  I have really come to appreciate Harry's talent for 
thinking fast in a crisis because I've recently realized that I get 
positively sluggish in a crisis.  Some usually-intelligent people 
can't think at all when time is tight and the stakes are high.  
There's such a thing as a man of action, and Harry's definitely one of 
them.

Amy Z




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed May 16 21:32:35 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:32:35 -0000
Subject: was Wordplay  in HP ... Tripe
In-Reply-To: <9dosp4+5uib@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9durlj+tcbo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18859

People actually eat stomach lining on the east coast? Do you fry it 
or what?

Doreen, who is about as familiar with tripe as she is chittlins


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> > The one I like (and it hasn't quite crept on to the Strictly
> > British bit of the Lexicon yet) is "Tripe, Sybil?"  In Brit
> > English, tripe means nonsense as well as the wonderful gliding
> > food.  So McGonagall is commenting on Trelawney's previous remark,
> > as well a offering her food.
> 
> Tripe has the dual meaning in American English too, which is why
> it shouldn't be in the "Strictly British" part.
> 
> "tripe (trIp) n. 
> 
> 1. The light-colored, rubbery lining of the stomach of cattle or 
> other ruminants, used as food. 
> 2. Informal. Something of no value; rubbish."
> 
> American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.
> 
> ....Craig




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May 16 21:50:59 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:50:59 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2 Reminder
Message-ID: <9duso3+3b32@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18860

Just a reminder that the contest is still on, until noon (EST) 
tomorrow (Thursday 5/17).  So write a poem about a character in HP 
and send it to HP4GUCon at aol.com.  For more details, the contest 
announcement can be found in the files section in the HP4GU Contest 
folder.

--Joywitch




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed May 16 21:54:38 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:54:38 -0000
Subject: was Wordplay  in HP ... Tripe
In-Reply-To: <9durlj+tcbo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dusuu+5he8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18861

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> People actually eat stomach lining on the east coast? Do you fry it 
> or what?
> 
> Doreen, who is about as familiar with tripe as she is chittlins
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> > > The one I like (and it hasn't quite crept on to the Strictly
> > > British bit of the Lexicon yet) is "Tripe, Sybil?"  In Brit
> > > English, tripe means nonsense as well as the wonderful gliding
> > > food.  So McGonagall is commenting on Trelawney's previous 
remark,
> > > as well a offering her food.
> > 
> > Tripe has the dual meaning in American English too, which is why
> > it shouldn't be in the "Strictly British" part.
> > 
> > "tripe (trIp) n. 
> > 
> > 1. The light-colored, rubbery lining of the stomach of cattle or 
> > other ruminants, used as food. 
> > 2. Informal. Something of no value; rubbish."
> > 
> > American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.
> > 
> > ....Craig

The one and only time I have eaten tripe was on a trip to Italy.  
"Trippa ala Fiorentina"  was like eating erasers sauteed in tomato 
sauce.  I shudder to think what sweetbreads would be like (the thymus 
gland and the pancreas).

Haggridd




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 22:56:51 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:56:51 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <F109Ff82rPe4n4WZiW700009ef5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18862

Hi, list--I'm extremely tired, but must have a go at this...

Amy wrote:
>Wow.  Naama's post was so poetic that I feel like I'm kind of
>shuffling in after the grand finale with my oh-so-ordinary
>observations, but for what they're worth, here they are.

I liked Naama's observations as well!  Only reason I didn't respond is 
because it would have been a "me too" post, and the hairnet and bunny 
slipper-wearing Mod Squad is scary.  So scary, in fact, that I post a 
fraction as much as I did before... for which I am sure everyone is 
grateful.  ;-)

However, much as I adore her, Amy and I are on opposite sides of the fence 
on this issue.  Had to respond.  <vbg>

I wrote:
>
> >If he's Joe Public, they'll kill him.  If he's not, they'll think
> >twice before they try.
>Amy:
>I think they'll think twice anyway, because they won't be sure.  Why
>did Tom Riddle sic a basilisk on him, sit and watch him die of poison,
>etc. before getting desperate and raising his wand?  Why didn't he
>just kill him with the wand immediately?  I think he's afraid of him.

This supports my position, I think.  Why would Riddle be afraid of an 
average wizard?

Amy wrote:
>  He knows from Ginny that his adult self failed to kill Harry, and he
>doesn't fully understand why (I know Harry tells him it's because of
>his mother's love, but if I were TR I still wouldn't be entirely
>sure).  The Death Eaters know that Voldemort has twice tried to kill
>Harry and very weird, dangerous things have happened to V as a result.
>  Add Harry's having killed him, and how many of them are going to take
>the risk that he's mortal?

So what you're saying is that the perception that There's Something Special 
About Harry will protect him?  I don't think all the DE-types are stupid and 
bumbling... he had better have more than just the perception.  They'd send 
their expendables just to try, I think.

>For my part, I don't for a moment think that Harry can't be hurt by
>Voldemort.  <snip>

I totally agree with this, and even tried to start a thread on it some time 
back (January?)... "how could Voldemort go about killing Harry?"  There were 
no takers.  I suppose no one wanted to talk about Harry head.

>To some extent, Voldemort is
>right-Harry has escaped him through luck.  But not only luck:  also
>through Lily's sacrifice and, in later encounters, Harry's own
>strength of character (cf our discussion on why Harry's wand forced
>Voldemort's to regurgitate its spells and not the other way around).
>It's =possible= that from his birth there has been something about
>Harry that makes it inherently impossible for Voldemort to kill him,
>but I doubt it.

I don't believe in luck, but for the purpose of the discussion, let's just 
say that luck, the Sacrifice, and strength of character all played a role in 
Harry's protection in the past and continuing protection.  This threefold 
combination still makes him special... how many other kids fall into this 
category?

>Harry isn't necessarily average; he's particularly talented in various 
>ways, as you point out (though not necessarily more talented than lots of 
>other wizards),

Canon seems to imply otherwise.  If this is the case, why can't Hermione 
conjure a Patronus?  Why can't the entire fourth year DADA class resist 
Imperius?

>The question is in what way he is unique.  To use Naama's distinction, is 
>he unique in substance or is he just a boy who, like many ordinary
>people, can be quite extraordinary if he fulfills his potential?  How
>JKR handles this will have a big impact on whether HP stays one of my
>all-time favorites or ends up being disappointing.

Me too!  But on the opposite side of the coin.  ;-)  You have most of the 
regulars on list on your side, though, so I don't doubt that you guys will 
prevail.

>  If Harry is triumphant it will be not because he was destined to be
>so ("the stars have been read wrongly before now," after all) but
>because of what he chose to make of his considerable talents.

Mixing theories?  The fact that Harry just might be gifted has very little 
to do with the stars.  ;-)

>But I see the hands waving and the frustrated voices shouting:  "Then
>why did Voldemort want to kill him?!"  There's no denying that there
>was something about the 15-month-old Harry that made him a threat to
>Voldemort, or at least Voldemort thought so.  I like Kimberly's
>thought best (way back at message 9358) about how prophecy and
>uniqueness and choice can all be factors.  Even if there proves to
>have been a prophecy that this boy would defeat Voldemort and the
>prophecy comes true, it doesn't mean that  that or any other prophecy
>=had= to come true in the HP universe.  We are not puppets acting out
>a drama whose end has already been written; our choices are real and
>make a difference.

After reading this, I finally understood why I'm in the less popular camp.  
It goes beyond Harry Potter... it's a way of seeing life, I think.

My personal worldview is that everything that happens, everything that ever 
is, was, or will be is by intelligent design.  I also believe that the end 
is already known, but also believe in free will... the designer's 
foreknowledge of what happens in the last chapter does not negate the freely 
made choices of the individual.

I'm very interested in the Great Man theory of history, and love reading 
alternate histories (Turtledove, Shwartz, Card).

I believe that one person can change the world for the better or the worse.

>I love what The Phantom Tollbooth has to say about
>this.  After Milo succeeds in his quest, Azaz and the Mathemagician
>let him in on the secret they'd only hinted at before:  that his quest
>was impossible.  So much for prophecies (but if they'd told him it was
>impossible before, methinks the prophecy would have come true).  I
>think Dumbledore would take a similar approach.  He believes that
>people's decisions, not to mention blind chance, can overrule what
>would seem to be fate.

This reminds me of the Matrix.  (Then again, so much does.)  The Oracle told 
Neo that he was not the One.  Later events seemed to prove the Oracle wrong. 
  Yet as another character told Neo, "She told you what you needed to hear." 
  Prophets can be interesting folks.

I strongly believe in certain kinds of prophecies in real life.  I've seen 
too much to not believe.  I also love the role of prophecy in our 
folklore... it's something that draws me to a story instantly, because in it 
I see echoes of the stories that are most important to me.

I wonder what role prophecy will play in future books.  There will be a 
role, if only a comic one.  JKR seems to poke fun of it through the guise of 
Trelawney.  Yet... there are prophecies, and then there are *prophecies*.  I 
hope she doesn't intend to toss the baby out with the bathwater.  As a 
novice storyteller, I recognize the potential there.  ;-)

>Another theme that is just hinted at in the books so far, but that
>supports the idea that Harry is talented-brave-strong-etc. but not
>superhuman, is that Voldemort is not the same thing as Evil Itself.
>Defeating him will not end evil for all time.  He is just the latest,
>and one of the most powerful, in a history of dark magic that will
>always have to be fought.  Why then should Harry be Unique in All the
>History of Wizardry?  He may well be uniquely suited to fight
>Voldemort-they mirror one another-but other dark wizards will arise
>and will have to be fought by other people, bringing the same
>strengths Harry has brought to this struggle:  courage, integrity,
>perseverance (the positive side of his stubbornness), a sound
>conscience, and basic human kindness.

We-e-ll... (sighs and laughs) no one in the Special!Harry camp thinks that 
the poor kid's the Second Coming, now.  LOL!  My previous post implied that 
evil is not going to end with Voldemort.  That's why I talked about all the 
Dark Wizards after and their motives for revenge in the first place.

Again, I suppose this just taps into what I believe about good and evil.  
"When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit will lift up a Standard 
against him."  Evil is always around, but once in a while Evil personified 
steps onto the scene.  Yet whenever this happens, there seems to be always 
someone--or a group of someones--to stand against Evil and overcome it.

Hmm.

Now, that's something we *haven't* talked about much... Harry being but the 
first of a coven assembled to overcome this foe.  Perhaps it won't be all 
about Harry after all.

Still think he's special, though.  ;-)  Hey, call me crazy... lots of other 
listies do.  I don't mind.  Well, not much.  :-)

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Not that great German master in his dream
Of harmonies that thundered amongst the stars
At the creation, ever heard a theme
Nobler than 'Go down, Moses.'  Mark its bars--
How like a mighty trumpet-call they stir
The blood.  Such are the notes that men have sung
Going to valorous deeds; such tones there were
That helped make history when Time was young."

--James Weldon Johnson, composer, Negro National Anthem

_________________________________________________________________
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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 23:21:18 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:21:18 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <F263bUf9Sp2WEnKS7vz00006c5f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18863

Amber wrote:

>I'm also of the camp that hopes that Harry doesn't have "Great
>Phenomenol Cosmic Powers". If there's anything I'm convinced of, its
>that a writer should never give any more help to their character than
>is strictly necessary. I'd rather he have regular wizarding powers, or
>even be a little deficient in that area. Let him use his head, his
>flying skills, his friends, or his heart to defeat Voldemort. Don't let
>him be a little powerhouse of energy.
>

I've heard this a lot.  Why no one ever speaks of the flip side of 
superpowers/being "singled out" is beyond me.

A character with an extraordinary talent is not necessarily going to have a 
walk in the park.  Quite the contrary.

First of all, the very fact that the character is unique singles them out.  
Orson Scott Card's Ender, the smartest kid in a microcosm of the 
supergifted, immediately springs to mind.  Being "different" in many cases 
singles one out for ridicule and/or exclusion.  Harry has experienced this 
on a schoolwide level in CoS and in GoF.  It seems as if Hogwarts students 
alternate between lauding the kid and hating him.

Second, the gift itself may have unpleasant side effects.  Take Octavia 
Butler's *Parable* duo.  The protagonist Lauren Olamina is a hyperempath, 
which means that she is able to share the pain of others.  Lauren also 
blacks into unconsciousness if she is touching a person who suddenly dies... 
and in both books Lauren implies that most people who are "like her" don't 
live very long.  They are driven insane by their gift... by feeling all 
things all the time.

That brings me to my third point.

There is a dark side to almost every "gift" or "talent".  I'm not talking 
"Superman-Goes-Bad" or anything like that.  I'm talking about giftedness' 
twin--alienation.  It's the feeling that there are no kindred spirits, the 
feeling that no one quite knows the private hell that your uniqueness causes 
you to constantly live in.  No one hears the music you hear, and after a 
while, you get tired of explaining it to them and getting The Look in reply.

Why do you think so many of those stamped genius are driven insane?

Why do you think so very many commit suicide?

If one could truly measure such things, my hypothesis would be that the 
happiest people are found on the hump of the bell curve of life.  Ordinary 
people.  Average people.  Joe Public.

You see, it isn't that stories aren't usually about ordinary people because 
they're not worthy of having their stories told.  Rather, the art of story 
is about conflict, about struggle, about change and upheaval and all sorts 
of things.

Now, it can be argued that these sorts of things happen to ordinary people 
all the time.  But when ordinary people are the protagonists of the story, 
the narrative focuses on the factors causing the upheaval (circumstances, 
the environment, etc.) rather than the people themselves.

The characters we remember are the ones with larger-than-life characters.  
The characters who stand out in our minds for some reason.  Not just because 
of what happened to them, but because of *who they are*.

And this series is not called *Hogwarts, A History*.

It's called...

You get my drift.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Not that great German master in his dream
Of harmonies that thundered amongst the stars
At the creation, ever heard a theme
Nobler than 'Go down, Moses.'  Mark its bars--
How like a mighty trumpet-call they stir
The blood.  Such are the notes that men have sung
Going to valorous deeds; such tones there were
That helped make history when Time was young."

--James Weldon Johnson, composer, Negro National Anthem

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed May 16 23:26:22 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:26:22 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <F255f8SamLZGaQBkVX600009f70@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18864

Magda wrote:

> > I always felt that GOF ended rather...er...lamely. I was biting my
> > nails all through Wormtail taking Harry's blood and bringing back
> > Voldemort. My eyes were glued to the page during Voldemort's little
> > speech. I was expecting something big to happen and then...what?
> > Voldemort unties Harry, gives his wand back, and says "Let's have a
> > duel"? Huh? At that point I'm thinking "Has Voldemort gone nutters?
>
>
>I know "I agree" posts are frowned on but I agree completely with
>this.  Lord V. is such a bonehead that I wonder how he's going to
>sustain his menace for three more books.

It doesn't take a genius to kill millions.

A madman is an entirely differently story.

Not all madmen can claim genius.

Sure, Voldemort seems a bit dundering.  But I don't think the characters who 
were around during his first rise to power will estimate him this time 
around.  And I don't think we've fully seen in canon the reason why wizards 
and witches feared this madman to the point of being afraid to invoke his 
name (reminds me a bit of demon lore--summoning dark creatures by speaking 
their names).

In fact, the biggest mistake the characters could make would be to 
underestimate Voldemort and his followers.  Our own Muggle past could attest 
to that.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Not that great German master in his dream
Of harmonies that thundered amongst the stars
At the creation, ever heard a theme
Nobler than 'Go down, Moses.'  Mark its bars--
How like a mighty trumpet-call they stir
The blood.  Such are the notes that men have sung
Going to valorous deeds; such tones there were
That helped make history when Time was young."

--James Weldon Johnson, composer, Negro National Anthem

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu May 17 00:09:30 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 00:09:30 -0000
Subject: PoA 5, innocent RL
In-Reply-To: <9dtpqd+521f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dv4rq+pou0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18865

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Re: Why Remus was on the train

snip
> I assumed that insofar as Remus is a plant and not just traveling 
by 
> train because he's ill/poor, he's there to guard against Sirius.  
The 
> MOM has made sure Harry is accompanied by adult wizards ever since 
> Sirius's escape, and it would make sense that Fudge et al would 
> ask Dumbledore to ask one of his staff to be on the train to keep 
an 
> eye on things.  It could be any of them, but it's Remus because of 
his 
> other reasons to use the train, and/or because Dumbledore wants him 
to 
> know that he trusts him to be on the right side despite his 
friendship 
> with Sirius.  Assigning him the job of protecting Harry from Sirius 
> would be a very Dumbledorean way to convey that trust.

I hadn't thought of that. If so, I guess Dumbledore didn't mention it 
to Snape, since he thought from the get-go that Remus was not to be 
trusted. 
> 
(I always wish I could relive that 
> with my favorite books)

Amen!!


I 
> thought he was a very suspicious character.  For one thing, I was 
> going by the dictum, "Never trust a DADA professor any farther than 
> you can throw him."  Then there was all that improbable sleeping, 
and 
> then handing out chocolate to make nice . . . even the gentle voice 
> Jim Dale gave him couldn't assuage my suspicions.)
> 
> Now, however, I start hyperventilating when someone suggests Lupin 
> might go over to the Death Eaters.  Never!  Not my Remus! 

I can't see that, either. Remus has too many good qualities, and I 
don't get the feeling that he can be corrupted.  Besides, even if the 
DEs want to enlist the help of "dark creatures" I doubt that means 
they would see them as equals.  A werewolf joining V's side would 
just exchange one group with prejudices for another.   

IMO Sirius 
> never had good reason to suspect him of being the spy; it was a 
case 
> of understandable paranoia, combined with "who else could it be?," 
> perhaps combined with suspicious-seeming innocent behavior that we 
> don't know about (could be anything--unexplained absences, getting 
> caught looking through James and Lily's medicine chest, whatever).

Agreed again.  No one could ever suspect Peter because he was so 
forgetable.  We also don't know what James, Remus, Sirius, etc. were 
doing during V's original war, so we can't yet gauge the state of 
their minds.  The general atmosphere of death, destruction, 
treachery, etc. that existed at the time could certainly cloud 
people's judgement.  

I still would like to see a discussion between Sirius and Remus 
regarding why they each suspected the other.  The quick apologies 
tossed out in the Shrieking Shack scene, IMO, do not do justice to 
this sort of event.

Marianne






From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu May 17 00:28:39 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 00:28:39 -0000
Subject: was Wordplay  in HP ... Tripe
In-Reply-To: <9durlj+tcbo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dv5vn+p61f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18866

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> People actually eat stomach lining on the east coast? Do you fry it 
> or what?
> 
> Doreen, who is about as familiar with tripe as she is chittlins
> 
Other people eat it. I wouldn't go near it.

Though there are soups that have tripe in.

Bleah.

I imagine you could find recipes for tripe if you looked on the web.





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu May 17 00:28:38 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 00:28:38 -0000
Subject: Magna Carta? - Sirius's delay
In-Reply-To: <9dum5d+7tpg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dv5vm+qh2b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18867

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Dave wrote:
> 
Snip
>   
> > It also occurs to me that his imprisonment without a trial is
> > rendered even more heinous considering all the Death Eaters
> > who got off on the claim they were under the Imperious Curse.
> > Why couldn't Sirius have been under the Imperious Curse too?
> 
> Even if Sirius got the opportunity to make this argument, I bet he 
> wouldn't.  Not out of a sense of honor--even Sirius might not be so 
> noble as to go to Azkaban rather than lie--but out of despair, 
shame, 
> and guilt.  I don't think Sirius gave a damn what happened to him.  
He 
> thought he deserved to rot in Azkaban.  
> 
> Hmm, I just had another thought though.  Wouldn't he have wanted to 
> clear his name, or at least accuse Pettigrew, for the same reason 
he 
> does 12 years later:  to protect Harry?  It seems as if he knew 
from 
> the start that Pettigrew didn't die.  He wouldn't have a chance of 
> finding him, one rat among millions, or of proving that it was 
Peter 
> who was the Death Eater, so I guess I can understand why he 
wouldn't 
> even try to explain it to the MOM--but why wasn't he haunted from 
day 
> one by the thought that Peter would try to kill Harry?  Why did it 
> only start to bother him 12 years later when he saw his picture?
> 
> Amy Z
> 
Perhaps because with Voldemort in a next-to-useless state, Sirius 
knew that Peter wouldn't have the nerve to kill Harry.  Peter had no 
one to provide him with protection or shower him with rewards for 
killing Harry with Voldemort gone.  And with Peter wandering the 
earth in his rat state, how could Sirius hope to convince anyone of 
his innocence?  Add to that his sorrow and guilt over James' and 
Lily's deaths, and dealing with life among the Dementors, and you 
have someone who was probably not operating on all cylinders.

Marianne, who hopes Book VII has a happy ending for Sirius (and 
Remus).





From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May 17 00:46:32 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 00:46:32 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <F109Ff82rPe4n4WZiW700009ef5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dv718+lcic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18868

Ebony wrote:
> 
> This reminds me of the Matrix.  (Then again, so much does.)  The 
Oracle told 
> Neo that he was not the One.  Later events seemed to prove the 
Oracle wrong. 
>   Yet as another character told Neo, "She told you what you needed 
to hear." 
>   Prophets can be interesting folks.

Hello -
I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but the Oracle never said he wasn't the 
One.  She actually told him he had the "gift", but she never said "You 
are not the one".  She told him that who would die was his choice.  
Her prophecy, like many prophecies, was quite vague, leaving room for 
interpretation, and leaving Neo (see how stupid I am?  I thought he 
was Neal) to find strength within himself (and through love, just like 
HP) to really be the One.

Now if we look at HP, *choice* is a big thing.  Harry, too, seems to 
have a gift.  What he does with it is his choice, which is partly why, 
I think, so many millions of people love HP as they do.  That is much 
more realistic than the "You are the One" thing.  Harry is not driven 
by the idea that he is the "One" to defeat Voldemort.  He, like most 
of us, must make choices as he goes, and because of his inner strength 
that I admire so much, he tends to make good choices.  Or choices for 
Good - whatever.

--jenny from ravenclaw***********************************




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 00:50:50 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <F263bUf9Sp2WEnKS7vz00006c5f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010517005050.111.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18869


--- Ebony Elizabeth Thomas <ebonyink at hotmail.com> wrote:

I snipped the previous arguments you presented because I agree
wholeheartedly with what you said. I felt that repetitive "I agree's"
wouldn't be very productive. I hope you don't mind.

> There is a dark side to almost every "gift" or "talent".  I'm not
> talking "Superman-Goes-Bad" or anything like that.  I'm talking about
> giftedness' twin--alienation.  It's the feeling that there are no
> kindred spirits, the feeling that no one quite knows the private hell
> that your uniqueness causes you to constantly live in.  No one hears
> the music you hear, and after a while, you get tired of explaining it
> to them and getting The Look in reply.

Well, people don't have to have gifts or talents to feel alienation.
"Normal" people can and often do. Granted, it does happen more with
"different" or "talented" people, but it does exist for the Everyday
Joe. But I'm splitting hairs...

> If one could truly measure such things, my hypothesis would be that
> the happiest people are found on the hump of the bell curve of life. 
> Ordinary people.  Average people.  Joe Public.

<grin> And I would agree most wholeheartedly with your hypothesis!

> The characters we remember are the ones with larger-than-life
> characters. The characters who stand out in our minds for some
reason.
> Not just because of what happened to them, but because of *who they
> are*.

Ah, I think I see where the disagreement is. I do agree with you that
to have a memorable character, that character has to be
larger-than-life. However, I do have a problem when the character
becomes "too big". They seem to have every talent under the sun.
Characters must also be believable; people have to be able to empathize
with them.

Up to now, we know that Harry is a phenomenol Quidditch player; a
natural at it. We know that he's a Parlseltongue, a talent that is
supposedly rare. Despite being an orphan and having never had friends
before, Harry miraculously is able to make friends and not ostracize
people. He's level-headed in a crisis and is incredibly courageous to
boot. He witnesses someone begin killed first hand and doesn't collapse
over it. Harry, in my opinion, is already larger-than-life. If JKR were
to through in that he has *more* miraculous, rare, and 
powerful...er...powers, I would not believe it. 

Of course, the above is subject to opinion. I'm sure there are people
who could believe Harry *also* having more rare talents. I don't,
that's all. If perhaps he had personality problems, or was more afraid,
or had more trouble, I could also take great powers. But as it is, I
think that JKR has already given Harry enough ammo against Voldemort
through his personality, his friends, and teachers. He doesn't need
anymore help.

~Amber


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 01:21:00 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 01:21:00 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <F259ewQ1N8Pik3Y8pEB00009eea@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18870

Jenny wrote:

Me--
> > This reminds me of the Matrix.  (Then again, so much does.)  The
>Oracle told
> > Neo that he was not the One.  Later events seemed to prove the
>Oracle wrong.
> >   Yet as another character told Neo, "She told you what you needed
>to hear."
> >   Prophets can be interesting folks.
>

Jenny--
>I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but the Oracle never said he wasn't the
>One.  She actually told him he had the "gift", but she never said "You
>are not the one".  She told him that who would die was his choice.
>Her prophecy, like many prophecies, was quite vague, leaving room for
>interpretation, and leaving Neo (see how stupid I am?  I thought he
>was Neal) to find strength within himself (and through love, just like
>HP) to really be the One.

First of all, you're not stupid!  I knew the spelling only because I've 
watched the DVD version close-captioned several times.  (As far as 
intelligence goes, this is coming from a woman who didn't figure out *The 
Sixth Sense* until she watched the director's notes on DVD.)

Next, you are being nitpicky...  <vbg>  The Oracle never said the words "you 
aren't the one, Neo".  He said it--she replied "sorry, kid."

Again, prophecy is a Strange Thing.  If one doesn't believe in it, *any* of 
it, then it's rather pointless to discuss the finer nuances of it.

Jenny--
>Now if we look at HP, *choice* is a big thing.  Harry, too, seems to
>have a gift.  What he does with it is his choice, which is partly why,
>I think, so many millions of people love HP as they do.  That is much
>more realistic than the "You are the One" thing.  Harry is not driven
>by the idea that he is the "One" to defeat Voldemort.  He, like most
>of us, must make choices as he goes, and because of his inner strength
>that I admire so much, he tends to make good choices.  Or choices for
>Good - whatever.


(Sigh.)  Why does it seem as if everyone wants to wed the Special!Harry 
advocates to fatalism?

This may sound like a contradiction, but those who are destined have 
choices.  They can choose to walk in their destiny.  Or they can choose to 
defy it.  Doesn't negate the value or the truth of the destiny itself.

I want to give examples, but all those I'm thinking of right now are 
theological--and there's no quicker way to turn the tone of the list 
belligerent than to mention certain belief systems.  ;-)

Instead, I'll end with this:  the "ordinariness" of Harry was not the 
selling point of the series for me.  Being in the majority doesn't concern 
me much... but now I am beginning to fear that I have an exaggerated sense 
of self-importance.  Not my fault, though!  I was born in August... it's my 
destiny.  ;-)

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Not that great German master in his dream
Of harmonies that thundered amongst the stars
At the creation, ever heard a theme
Nobler than 'Go down, Moses.'  Mark its bars--
How like a mighty trumpet-call they stir
The blood.  Such are the notes that men have sung
Going to valorous deeds; such tones there were
That helped make history when Time was young."

--James Weldon Johnson, composer, Negro National Anthem

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 01:44:11 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 01:44:11 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <F6289QtpfTYSl1q4gto00009f8a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18871

Amber wrote:
>
>Up to now, we know that Harry is a phenomenol Quidditch player; a
>natural at it. We know that he's a Parlseltongue, a talent that is
>supposedly rare. Despite being an orphan and having never had friends
>before, Harry miraculously is able to make friends and not ostracize
>people. He's level-headed in a crisis and is incredibly courageous to
>boot. He witnesses someone begin killed first hand and doesn't collapse
>over it. Harry, in my opinion, is already larger-than-life. If JKR were
>to through in that he has *more* miraculous, rare, and
>powerful...er...powers, I would not believe it.
>

You know, I can relate to your last statement a bit.  I had a moment in GoF 
that I think was my turning point.  It was when Harry's name got pulled out 
of the Goblet.  And my first reaction on July 8 last year while I read was, 
"Why?"  I may have even said it aloud... I talk, giggle, and shout at my 
books.

I was with Hagrid--everything seemed to happen to this kid.  I felt as if 
JKR didn't need to make Harry a Triwizard Champion... there was enough going 
on in the narrative.  Harry didn't regain my sympathy until Ron shocked me 
later in the chapter by not believing him... and then he had it for the 
remainder of the book.

If I had not read GoF, I might be swayed by the "ordinary" theory.  But I've 
read book #4 repeatedly, until my cover's got inky fingerprints, and the 
pages are creased in the passages I want to look over again, and I've made 
notes... I've altered my views on several issues after re-reads, but never 
once have I read anything that changed my initial impression that "there's 
something going on here".

Harry already has enough unique about him to qualify for a "intrinsically 
special" label without adding another special trait.  I talked about the 
Patronus and Imperius last night... and the flying... he's also a 
Parseltongue... and he thinks extremely well under pressure (which in and of 
itself is a talent).

One of the things I'm now reading for in this series is for quest.  Harry is 
in the midst of several quests.  One is to find himself.  Each book has 
yielded random pieces of the puzzle.  That puzzle will be completed in Book 
7... however, I'm of the school that self-discovery is never complete.

In each book, Harry finds out something new about himself... much of which 
is setting him apart from his peers.  That, coupled with his experiences, 
just may make for increased alienation in future books... the quiet 
denouement of GoF comes to mind.

Still think the kid's not your average wizard.  Special doesn't necessarily 
mean flying without a broomstick or glow-in-the-dark eyes like my favorite 
X-Man (well, woman <g>) either.

It means being set apart.

That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with destiny (again, which I 
believe in) or Superman.  It's just what's there in canon already.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Not that great German master in his dream
Of harmonies that thundered amongst the stars
At the creation, ever heard a theme
Nobler than 'Go down, Moses.'  Mark its bars--
How like a mighty trumpet-call they stir
The blood.  Such are the notes that men have sung
Going to valorous deeds; such tones there were
That helped make history when Time was young."

--James Weldon Johnson, composer, Negro National Anthem

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From heidit at netbox.com  Thu May 17 01:49:43 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 01:49:43 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <F259ewQ1N8Pik3Y8pEB00009eea@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dvann+8i5l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18872

In Lake Woebegon, maybe...

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
 
> This may sound like a contradiction, but those who are destined have 
> choices.  They can choose to walk in their destiny.  Or they can 
choose to 
> defy it.  Doesn't negate the value or the truth of the destiny 
itself.
<tinysnip>
> Instead, I'll end with this:  the "ordinariness" of Harry was not 
the 
> selling point of the series for me.  Being in the majority doesn't 
concern 
> me much... but now I am beginning to fear that I have an exaggerated 
sense 
> of self-importance.  

Nah, not exaggerated a bit :)


> > The characters we remember are the ones with larger-than-life
> > characters. The characters who stand out in our minds for some
> reason.
> > Not just because of what happened to them, but because of *who 
they
> > are*.
> 
Amber wrote
> Ah, I think I see where the disagreement is. I do agree with you 
that
> to have a memorable character, that character has to be
> larger-than-life. However, I do have a problem when the character
> becomes "too big". They seem to have every talent under the sun.
> Characters must also be believable; people have to be able to 
empathize
> with them.

I have to admit to coming closer to understanding Ebony's perspective 
on this than, I think, some of the others who've posted, although I do 
agree with Amber as well, that a character shouldn't become too big or 
all powerful - but even the son of satan can be empathized with on 
occasion (see Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett's GOOD OMENS). 
My husband is a major comic book collector. We have more comic boxes 
in the house than I have shoes and sweaters combined - and he's gotten 
me to read certain serieses - even if I hadn't, from listening to him 
with some of his collector friends, and just learning enough to 
understand what he goes on about, I have never seen a successful 
character or series that has every talent, and everything else, in 
measures of perfection. But I don't think that's what Ebony says Harry 
has. It's certainly not what *I* think Harry has.
And I don't think he's immortal (I get enough of that from my damned 
Remillards in Julian May's books), and I don't think he's anywhere 
near perfection. And I also think that other characters in the books 
have certain *special* skills that are more than the ordinary 
"everywizard" or "everywitch" skills - Something about James that 
may've been the reason why Voldie went after him, instead of 
Sirius, who certainly had a much more nondescript & useful Animagus 
firm - and our favorite (and most despised) animagi, for example - or 
if you fall into the Ron Is A Seer camp, or possibly Dumbledore's 
talents which are still only roughly sketched - all those are special 
things that those individuals have  - why is it hard to accept that 
there is likewise (likely) something special inherant in Harry that 
makes him who he is? He still has to choose what to do with it - but 
that little extra glimmer....it's important. I don't know how 
yet....but I feel that it has to be!




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Thu May 17 02:11:49 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 02:11:49 -0000
Subject: Lupin on the train (was Re: conjuring things - Remus) 
In-Reply-To: <3B021255.20D9B014@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9dvc15+sqbc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18873

I apologize for joining the train discussion so late, but the "he was 
there for a reason" reasoning just raised my eyebrows so much I had 
to respond. 

Catlady summed up that school of thought most specifically: 

> After enough re-readings, I suddenly realised that Dumbledore had 
asked > Remus to ride the Hogwarts Express and guard Harry from the 
Dementors. > Remus found out somehow that Harry was travelling with 
the Weasleys who > are always late, so he could be sure that if he 
got in the last> carriage, by the time that the Weasley party 
arrived, that would be the> closest to empty of the carriages, which 
they would take, and he could> pretend to be asleep the whole time to 
avoid embarrassing them by having> an adult to babysit them.

But this to me seems to be an enormous number of coincidences that 
needed to occur before Remus, the trio, the dementors would all be in 
once place. And as Catlady herself as so eloquently pointed out in 
recent posts, Dumbledore's prescience isn't all it's cooked up to be. 
Is it like him to micro-manage an event that may or may not happen?  
Further, if Harry's welfare were Lupin's reason for being on the 
train, why fake sleep and say nothing till the attack is at hand 
rather than warn him in advance? And what protection did Lupin 
actually offer, anyway, since Harry still had a fit and blacked out? 
He had chocolate, yes, but so does the witch with the little snacks 
cart....

It seems to me much more likely that Lupin's poverty and potentially 
diminished powers are the reasons he's on the train. It seems clear 
that he's just come off a full moon, and we're told elsewhere how 
difficult it is to apparate--does it makes sense that Lupin can't do 
that kind of complicated magic so soon after a transformation (and 
yes, we know about the Hogwarts-apparation rule; I personally picture 
people apparating to Hogsmeade, hiting the local cafe, and walking up 
the hill to Hogwarts with a tall latte iced in hand.) Note also that 
Lupin leaves Hogwarts not by apparating or flying but by magical 
carriage (courtsey of his recently former employer)--just after 
another transformation which again diminished his powers?  

Also, I'm sure this has been discussed before, but can people 
apparate with things in tow? Like a grindylow tank? Lupin has one 
battered case for his inbound journey, but I'm sure the other 
teachers arrive with a full complement of books, robes, geegaws and 
pictures of their loved ones; that stuff seems to indicate magical 
carriage-type transportation rather than broomstick or apparating. Or 
perhaps they have a cadre of house elves to tote their stuff before 
or after their own arrival? In any case, any of those options are out 
of Lupin's range moneywise. Hence the train. 

It's kind of like seeing a teacher ride the yellow bus to school. 

What does anyone else think?  

~Rosmerta





From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 02:56:37 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:56:37 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: tidbits: fighting dragons, toads
Message-ID: <8a.6b9c7aa.283497e5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18874

In a message dated 5/16/2001 11:42:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
foxmoth at qnet.com writes:


> > Then why didn't Harry catch a hint of them 
> > screaming  "YOU !! STAY 'WAY FROM MY EGGS"?
> > 
> And wouldn't Harry have been able to communicate with Norbert?
> 

I really don't think Harry was listening. I don't have the book with me at 
the moment, but he was pretty focused on what he was doing, and even blocked 
out the noise of the crowd. 

As far as Norbert goes.... maybe he was too young to communicate? Or maybe 
Harry wasn't interested enough to talk to him to establish the "link" 
necessary to talk to snakes.

Just some thoughts....
Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andreahb at uol.com.br  Thu May 17 02:58:20 2001
From: andreahb at uol.com.br (andreahb at uol.com.br)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 02:58:20 -0000
Subject: "Stand aside, girl!"
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010516113824.03081c80@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9dveoc+udst@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18875

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> Why does Voldemort tell Lily to "stand aside" and later
> tell Harry "She didn't have to die"?  Since when does V
> make an effort to avoid killing someone if he can (Cedric)?

Hi, everyone!

Some time ago, I came up with a theory and I still haven't gotten 
resonable proof to undermine it. My idea is that Lily had once had 
the chance to kill Voldemort, but was merciful (just like Harry was 
to Wormtail). Then, V knew that he owned her his life, that he was 
connected to her by that powerful kind of magic Dumbledore tells 
Harry at the end of PoA. Hence his effort not to kill her. But then, 
when he actually went on and did it, it backfired and he lost his 
power.

Does it sound likely to any one of you?

Andrea (from Brazil)




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 02:59:16 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:59:16 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <3c.bd48542.28349884@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18876

In a message dated 5/16/2001 12:37:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
naama_gat at hotmail.com writes:


> I think that that is the true experience of magic - seeing the 
> extraordinary *in* the ordinary. Like when you look at a view you see 
> every day, and suddenly, because of a change in the light, or a 
> moment of quiet, you realize that it is glorious. For one fleeting 
> moment you sense that there is no such thing as the mundane. 
> (To Ebony - it's not like finding the one four-leaved clover, more 
> like suddenly realizing that they are ALL four-leaved.)
> 
> For me, that's the main appeal of JKR's vision. The magical is not 
> beyond - long ago or years from now, in far lands or deep within the 
> sea, in an alternative universe or in Alpha Centauri. It's right 
> here, under our very noses - you just need to cross the right barrier 
> at the train station, enter a grungy little pub, just look at things 
> properly - and it's there.
> 

This is very beautiful. Thank you for sharing it, Naama.  :-)

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:01:20 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:01:20 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: talking dragons
Message-ID: <34.1516e978.28349900@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18877

In a message dated 5/16/2001 12:43:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes:


> I have strong suspicions that the first language of dragons wouldn't be
> parsletongue, because it's unlikely that two species would speak the exact
> same language - however, as the species are related, their languages may
> also be related enough that a dragon would understand some words spoken in
> parsletongue, and therefore the nesting mother understood Harry, at least in
> a limited way, much in the same way that a native French speaker can
> understand some Creole, as the languages are related - not enough to speak
> it fluently, but enough to have a vague comprehension of what someone
> speaking Creole is saying. 

In many mythologies, Dragons are considered to be highly intelligent. Perhaps 
they know parsletongue as well as their own language.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:05:22 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:05:22 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <27.1588932e.283499f2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18878

In a message dated 5/16/2001 2:27:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:


> I think they'll think twice anyway, because they won't be sure.  Why 
> did Tom Riddle sic a basilisk on him, sit and watch him die of poison, 
> etc. before getting desperate and raising his wand?  Why didn't he 
> just kill him with the wand immediately?  I think he's afraid of him. 

I think that TR/Voldie also has a flair for the dramatic, which has cost him 
twice with Harry. His need to toy with his victims, like a cat with a field 
mouse, prevents him from doing what he wants most - killing Harry! Not that 
I'm in any hurry for Harry to die, mind you.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:18:20 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:18:20 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PoA Chapter Summary:  Chapter 7
Message-ID: <93.ad80676.28349cfc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18879

In a message dated 5/16/2001 4:54:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dfrankis at dial.pipex.com writes:


> What I have in mind is that the D's may already be working against the MOM 
> and Dumbledore, if not actually for Voldemort, and are targeting Harry - 
> see the Quidditch match and the lakeside later.  Taking out Barty Crouch Jr 
> so he couldn't testify might be part of this, and they might have some sort 
> of hold over Fudge too, warping his judgement.
> 

Wow...this is so obvious, I feel really dumb for not having thought of it 
sooner.  :-) What an excellent idea! That makes so much more sense than the 
dumb answer Lupin gave about them "feeding of the excitement and happiness" 
of the Quidditch match. That never made sense to me at all, because the 
Patronus is supposedly pure joy, and it *repells* Dementors, not attract 
them. So why would they be attracted to the joy of the match? And at the 
lake, one almost "kissed" Harry (had he not saved himself) for no other 
reason than that he was there.

What a wonderful perspective.  :-) Thanks!

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:24:32 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 03:24:32 -0000
Subject: Dobby
In-Reply-To: <002701c0dcd0$b67e1b40$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9dvg9g+s6tc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18880

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> I am studying for my history final tomorrow (Modern and Contempoary 
US History) and came upon a very interesting tidbit while reviewing 
my notes on McCarthyism, which i somehow overlooked before.
> 
> in 1970, a young lawyer named Doris Brin Walker was elected the 
first female president of the National Lawyers Guild, a leftist 
group.  She had trouble over the years finding jobs because of her 
leftist activities and support of unions, and ended up being fired 
from her position as a label clerk at a plant for Cutter Labs in 
Berkley, due to her attempt to organize a union.
> Her nickname:  Dobby.
> 
> hmmm.. <g>  I saw that nickname and started frantically reading.  I 
think there's a whole section of the Bartle Library that wants me 
strangled now ;-).  I know the odds of JKR having encountered a 
reference to Ms. Walker is rather slim, but then again, she has so 
many puns and references in HP that I would not at all be surprised.
> 
Hmmmm.  I had never heard of Doris Brin Walker before, but it is 
possible, IMO, that JKR might know of her.  After all, JKRs mentor 
was Jessica Mitford, after whom she named her daughter.  I have no 
idea if Jessica Mitford had any relationship with Ms. Walker or the 
NLG, but it is possible.  Mitford, although British, lived most of 
her adult life in the U.S. and was a famous left-wing author and 
member of the Communist Party USA.  Perhaps Ms. Walker considered 
Jessica Mitford her mentor as well.

I doubt JKR ever met Jessica Mitford, who died sometime in the early 
1990s I think but she (JKR) has probably studied a lot about her.  
So, your theory, at least IMO, is pretty good.  At least as good as 
some of my nutty theories, which I will spare you from for the time 
being.

--Joywitch




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:25:22 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:25:22 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <76.aabec84.28349ea2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18881

In a message dated 5/16/2001 5:16:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:


> Excellent point.  I have really come to appreciate Harry's talent for 
> thinking fast in a crisis because I've recently realized that I get 
> positively sluggish in a crisis.  Some usually-intelligent people 
> can't think at all when time is tight and the stakes are high.  
> There's such a thing as a man of action, and Harry's definitely one of 
> them.
> 

I totally agree. I think that our society some times doesn't value the 
ability to react or use one's instincts, and there are times when rationale 
is over rated. For example, I have an uncle with his Ph.D. He's brilliant, 
academically, but he has no common sense. In an emergency or a tense 
situation, he's useless.

I think this is one reason why I enjoy the Harry/Hermione juxtaposition. 
Harry thinks with his "gut," and Hermione thinks with her head. I think JKR 
has done a wonderful job showing that there is a time and a place for both of 
these, and they are equally important.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:28:03 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:28:03 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <da.65b9793.28349f43@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18882

In a message dated 5/16/2001 5:19:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
meboriqua at aol.com writes:


> Hope that made sense!  I could go on about Harry all day.

I could as well. There's so many times I just want to hold him and tell him 
it's ok, but I'm a bit soft hearted for children that way.  :-)

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:45:18 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:45:18 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Stand aside, girl!"
Message-ID: <73.db74a42.2834a34e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18883

In a message dated 5/16/2001 11:00:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
andreahb at uol.com.br writes:


> Some time ago, I came up with a theory and I still haven't gotten 
> resonable proof to undermine it. My idea is that Lily had once had 
> the chance to kill Voldemort, but was merciful (just like Harry was 
> to Wormtail). Then, V knew that he owned her his life, that he was 
> connected to her by that powerful kind of magic Dumbledore tells 
> Harry at the end of PoA. Hence his effort not to kill her. But then, 
> when he actually went on and did it, it backfired and he lost his 
> power.
> 
> Does it sound likely to any one of you?
> 

Yeah! Someone had asked what Lily and James did for a living, and I wouldn't 
be surprised if they were Aurors. Why else would Voldie have a grudge against 
them? I remember someone saying in PoA, during the Three Broomsticks scene 
where Harry finds out about Sirius' friendship with James, that "Lily and 
James knew the Dark Lord was after them." After THEM, not Harry. Until then, 
I thought Harry was the intended target all along, but now I'm not sure.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:45:51 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 03:45:51 -0000
Subject: British words
Message-ID: <9dvhhf+rcl9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18884

I wanted to add my name to the chorus of Americans who HAVE heard the 
word "tripe" used to mean "nonsense."  This may be a regional thing; 
remember the "out of pocket" discussion?

Also, Amy Z.  said that she hoped that the word "Miss" has, more 
recently, been replaced with "Ms." in British public schools.  While 
I have noticed that in Ms. is commonly used in the U.S., especially 
in professional situations, I get the impression that this is less 
true in the U.K.  Is it true that Brits are more like to use Miss and 
Mrs. than Americans are?  (Although I have to agree with Amy -- I 
dont like being called Miss OR Mrs. at all, especially in a 
professional setting.  What does my marital status have to do with 
professional abilities?)

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 03:47:53 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 03:47:53 -0000
Subject: Hermione
Message-ID: <9dvhl9+nqg9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18885

Amy Z. (I think) said:
>-I find it a little odd when Parvati refers to Hermione as "Hermione 
>Granger" (it's right after Harry asks her to the ball). There is 
>probably only one Hermione in the school, and she's Parvati's 
roommate 
>and constant classmate--this gives an odd sense that they are quite 
>distant.

I noticed that JKR refers to her as "Hermione Granger" at the 
beginning of SS/PS, until she and Harry become friends.  I 
interpreted that as the tendency to use someones complete name if you 
dont know them well or dont like them.  Using only someones first 
name implies friendliness.  To me, it is clear from this and other 
bits in the books that Parvati and Hermione do not like each other at 
all.

Also, in response to the question about why Hermione decides to take 
so many classes, I think that people are right that she is something 
of an overachiever, and also that maybe she has something to prove 
since she is muggle-born.  But I also think that Hermione has a great 
love of learning and genuinely wants to know everything, so she can 
not bear to NOT take any classes that may be available.

--Joywitch





From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 04:05:32 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 04:05:32 -0000
Subject: Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9dvhl9+nqg9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9dvimc+adgk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18886

Joywitch:"Also, in response to the question about why Hermione decides 
to take  so many classes, I think that people are right that she is 
something of an overachiever, and also that maybe she has something to 
prove since she is muggle-born.  But I also think that Hermione has a 
great love of learning and genuinely wants to know everything, so she 
can not bear to NOT take any classes that may be available."

Hermione gets, or got, much of her feeling of self-worth from her 
achievements. She's driven. "I've memorized all my course-books. I 
just hope it'll be enough!" I'll bet she was never popular before 
coming to Hogwarts because she was "bossy" and a know-it-all. What I 
think she is getting from Hogwarts is another source of self-worth: 
she's saving the Universe. She can give up her bossiness. (well, most 
of it)




From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 04:33:21 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 04:33:21 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <F6289QtpfTYSl1q4gto00009f8a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9dvkah+jf0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18887

Ebony:"Harry already has enough unique about him to qualify for a 
"intrinsically special" label without adding another special trait.  I 
talked about the Patronus and Imperius last night... and the flying... 
he's also a Parseltongue... and he thinks extremely well under 
pressure (which in and of itself is a talent)."

A good point. I don't see how we can argue if Harry's special or not, 
just how much. There's nothing average about him.

Are we getting too wrapped up in where "special" begins and "other 
than human" begins? What would people one or two hundred years ago 
think of one of our modern athletes? They'd probably think he was 
utterly inhuman, beyond their ken, something "other."

Magical people are already "other" to us in the Muggle world. What 
would you think of someone who could vanish in one place and reappear 
in another instantly? We've already crossed the line into the 
miraculous. The question is how far Harry's going.

I don't believe Harry has gone beyond what wizardry knows, so I would 
vote that he isn't other-worldly as far as the wizard world is 
concerned. IOW, he doesn't do things no other wizard can, he just does 
them better.  What he is clearly, it seems, is the most talented 
wizard of his age, Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods rolled into one. I 
think in terms of extraordinary athletes because Harry is a man of 
action like they are; his intelligence is directed toward action, not 
intellectual process like Hermione or even Dumbledore. 'We honor the 
wise but elevate the brave.'





From deeblite at home.com  Thu May 17 05:08:47 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 01:08:47 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Stand aside, girl!"
In-Reply-To: <9dveoc+udst@eGroups.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010516113824.03081c80@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010517010759.02e46160@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18888

At 02:58 AM 5/17/01 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> > Why does Voldemort tell Lily to "stand aside" and later
> > tell Harry "She didn't have to die"?  Since when does V
> > make an effort to avoid killing someone if he can (Cedric)?
>
>Hi, everyone!
>
>Some time ago, I came up with a theory and I still haven't gotten
>resonable proof to undermine it. My idea is that Lily had once had
>the chance to kill Voldemort, but was merciful (just like Harry was
>to Wormtail). Then, V knew that he owned her his life, that he was
>connected to her by that powerful kind of magic Dumbledore tells
>Harry at the end of PoA. Hence his effort not to kill her. But then,
>when he actually went on and did it, it backfired and he lost his
>power.
>
>Does it sound likely to any one of you?


Or it could be a chivalry type thing.  He doesnt want to kill women unless 
he really needs to.  I know, Bertha Jorkins, but he "needed" to do that.




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 09:22:42 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:22:42 -0000
Subject: TMR's training; relative ages
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010515102657.0264c8e0@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9e0592+jvc6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18889

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote:
> At 08:41 AM 5/15/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
> > > I take the 50 years to be an "approximate"
> >figure.
> > > I believe the Chamber of Secrets was opened slightly more than 
50
> >years
> > > before HP finds it; that is, in 1941 or '42 (possibly even 
earlier),
> > > allowing Tom to finish up school and find Grindelwald before
> >Dumbledore
> > > defeated him in 1945. After Grindy's demise, presumably, Tom 
went on
> >a
> > > quest.... Okay, a dark quest, but still a quest.
> > >
> >
> >I don't think this can be true because in GoF Frank Bryce has come
> >back from the war and seemingly worked for the Riddles for some 
time
> >(from the villagers comments) before the Riddles are killed.  Now
> >assuming he was injured near the start of the war and worked about 
4
> >years as gardener before the Riddles murders then the Riddles were
> >killed around 1944.  I think V got his dark arts knowledge mainly 
from
> >the restricted section of the library and his own original mind (he
> >was after all a brilliant student).
> 
 To add my two knuts. Frank Bryce is described in the first chapter 
as 'Old Frank Bryce' and has bad hearing associated with old age. 
This leads me to believe the war he fought in was WW1 and therefore 
had been working for the Riddles for many years and is thus fairly 
useless for dating Tom's attack.

 Jen




From blaise_writer at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 09:23:40 2001
From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:23:40 -0000
Subject: calling girls by surnames - Minerva' age - JKR chats
In-Reply-To: <3B021255.20D9B014@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9e05as+k1of@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18890

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
 
> Morag wrote:
> > it is not usual to refer to girls in the same way.(snip) I think
> > Snape is being marginally ruder, though it is a kind of standoff,
> > in that neither is prepared to adjust their own usage to the 
other's.
> 

Catlady wrote:
> Very long ago when I was young, girls calling each other by surname 
only
> was kind of a girl jock thing ("Everybody shut up or get out of the
> room! Cook, this means you!").

It is not unheard of in England, when girls arrived in areas that had 
been boys-only before, for the girls to be called by their surnames 
as the boys were.  E.g. in Dorothy Sayers' 'Gaudy Night' the female 
undergraduates are called by their surnames alone.  

> Blaise wrote:
> > Has JKR said anywhere, e.g. in a chat/interview, how
> > old Minerva McGonagall is?
> 
> Blaise! It is so nice to see you back! I had a Classics remark 
(about
> Eris and the Kallisti apple) to put in the latest chapter of my
> snapefic, so I assigned it to Blaise Zabini because he has the same 
name
> as you and you're a classicist.
> 
> JKR said in a chat that Dumbledore is 150 and McGonagall 'is a 
sprightly
> seventy'. If she meant 70 at the time of the chat, Minnie could have
> been born 1930 and her schooldays could have overlapped with Tom 
Riddle
> (born 1926)'s.

Thank you very much for both the compliment and the info.  I have 
entirely lost track of JKR's chats; could you tell me where I can 
find a copy of the one you cite?  

Incidentally, if anyone has a nice up-to-date list of all the 
chats/interviews which JKR has taken part in and are to be found 
online, I'd love to see it.  

Thanks

Blaise.  






From jenfold at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 09:54:22 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:54:22 -0000
Subject: British words
In-Reply-To: <9dvhhf+rcl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e074e+al49@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18891

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> I wanted to add my name to the chorus of Americans who HAVE heard 
the 
> word "tripe" used to mean "nonsense."  This may be a regional 
thing; 
> remember the "out of pocket" discussion?
> 
> Also, Amy Z.  said that she hoped that the word "Miss" has, more 
> recently, been replaced with "Ms." in British public schools.

 Public schools I have no idea about, as for some reason (why I know 
not) schools which are called public schools in the UK are actually 
fairly exclusive private schools such as Eton or 'Smeltings.'

 What Americans call public shools we call state schools.
 
  While I have noticed that in Ms. is commonly used in the U.S., 
especially 
> in professional situations, I get the impression that this is less 
> true in the U.K.  Is it true that Brits are more like to use Miss 
and 
> Mrs. than Americans are?  (Although I have to agree with Amy -- I 
> dont like being called Miss OR Mrs. at all, especially in a 
> professional setting.  What does my marital status have to do with 
> professional abilities?)

 Sorry! But yes you're right Miss is most commonly used in schools to 
address female teachers regardless of marital status. Although don't 
most american children address female teachers as Ma'am, or is that 
just a common misconception promoted by the peanuts comic strip? 
While male teachers are addressed as either Mr or Sir depending on 
context. Although having said that at my High School we had one 
female teacher who was married but had kept her maiden name and 
demanded that we called her Ms, which caused no problems it's just 
not in widespread use. 

 As for outside school in my experience if someone doesn't know your 
marital status you're most likely to be called Miss (of course I'm 
only 20 and not very likely to be a Mrs yet.) but if you wished to be 
addressed as Ms people will use that. I must admit at the moment the 
title I'm addressed by doesn't bother me, although in the future it 
may.

 Jen





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu May 17 10:56:59 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:56:59 -0000
Subject: TMR's training; relative ages
In-Reply-To: <9e0592+jvc6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0apr+d5p4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18892

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> 
>  To add my two knuts. Frank Bryce is described in the first chapter 
> as 'Old Frank Bryce' and has bad hearing associated with old age. 
> This leads me to believe the war he fought in was WW1 and therefore 
> had been working for the Riddles for many years and is thus fairly 
> useless for dating Tom's attack.
> 
>  Jen


GoF takes place 1994-1995, so Frank *would* have been "old"--in his 
70s.  Remember, WWII was over in 1945, which makes it 50 years past.  
The hard-of-hearing part could have come from being exposed to 
gunfire at close range, as well as age.  

Just my 2 knuts worth too. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 11:22:22 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 04:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin on the train (was Re: conjuring things - Remus) 
In-Reply-To: <9dvc15+sqbc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010517112222.43713.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18893

Lupin was on the train:

1.  To get to Hogwarts himself.

2.  To protect the son of the best friend he ever had from being
harmed in some way by another mutal friend who apparently betrayed
them all a dozen years earlier and committed mass murder.  

What exactly he could do to defend Harry on the train is open to
debate but I'm sure Lupin felt that simply "being there" to keep an
eye on things would help somehow.  True, he had no way of knowing
that Harry would end up in his compartment but that can be overcome. 
Once the train started, Lupin could walk up and down the corridor,
meeting and greeting.  After all, he didn't need to meet Harry as
much as he had to watch for Sirius Black or a large black dog.

And I don't think that Lupin had slammed the door shut on friendship
with Black.  After all, once Black escaped from prison, Lupin could
have gone to Dumbledore at least and advised him to watch out for a
big black dog as well as for Black himself.  It would have been a big
help to the authorities.  But Lupin didn't do that.  Could it be that
deep down inside he couldn't bring himself to do it?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From lolitapopstar at yahoo.co.uk  Thu May 17 11:13:48 2001
From: lolitapopstar at yahoo.co.uk (A-chan)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:13:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British words
References: <9e074e+al49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000701c0dec5$1999b040$8360883e@vaio>

No: HPFGUIDX 18894

More on "Miss, Mrs. and Ms." and "public, state and private":

> > Also, Amy Z.  said that she hoped that the word "Miss" has, more
> > recently, been replaced with "Ms." in British public schools.
>
> Public schools I have no idea about, as for some reason (why I know
> not) schools which are called public schools in the UK are actually
> fairly exclusive private schools such as Eton or 'Smeltings.'
>
> What Americans call public shools we call state schools.

Well, I'm currently attending a private fee-paying school for sixth-form,
but before that I used to go to a public secondary school. Even now when I
talk to my friends about schools we refer to state schools as "public" and
our sixth-form college as "private". In fact we hardly ever use the words
"state school", but I do realise that it is more commonly used in the news
and such. Perhaps I've just been using the term "public" wrongly for the
past few years? *shrugs* But when I was at the "public" secondary school
(non-fee-paying) I used to call it "public", too. Now I'm confused.

Now I'm not too sure about Eton, but I might to able to pull some strings
and check it with a distant relative who used to go there. I've always
thought it was a private school though.

Umm, back to the topic of "Miss", "Mrs." and "Ms." In both of my schools
most students use "Ms." until they find out the real marital status of the
teacher and then they start using "Miss" and "Mrs." instead. But I think on
reports and letters from the school, "Ms." is more commonly used. Then
there are also some elderly teachers who would get very cross if you
address them as "Ms." and not "Mrs." - such as my school librarian and my
Biology teacher. Personal preference and reminder of their respectable
marital status (*coughs*), me thinks.

'Lita




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 12:49:33 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 05:49:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9dvhl9+nqg9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010517124933.17411.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18895


--- joym999 at aol.com wrote:
> Also, in response to the question about why Hermione decides to take 
> so many classes, I think that people are right that she is something 
> of an overachiever, and also that maybe she has something to prove 
> since she is muggle-born.  But I also think that Hermione has a great
> love of learning and genuinely wants to know everything, so she can 
> not bear to NOT take any classes that may be available.

For some strange reason, I don't see that Hermione thinks she has
something to prove because she's muggle-born. I have absolutely nothing
to back this up with, just the fact that I never picked this up before.
I guess I just don't see her as someone who normally worries about what
others think of her much. She seems to me to have quite a bit of
self-confidence. I mean she starts SPEW when everyone makes fun of her.
She sticks by her convictions during the fight with Ron in POA. There's
probably more examples but I'm too tired to think of them.

I've always seen her "overachieving" as a real love of books and
learning and not a desire to prove anything. But then again, I often
miss obvious things within the HP books. Go figure.

~Amber


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk  Thu May 17 13:13:00 2001
From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk (niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:13:00 -0000
Subject: British words and public schools
In-Reply-To: <000701c0dec5$1999b040$8360883e@vaio>
Message-ID: <9e0ios+8mf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18896

just my tuppenys worh about british public schools . They are so 
called because tradiitionally they have prepared the students for 
public life. I myself went too a private school which in my case was 
a convent. We usually refer regular schools as either grammer or 
comps (short for comprehensives) down here in the london suburbs but 
im sure different regions call them all sorts of things.
As for miss mrs or ms i think its personal choice . I hate the way ms 
sounds so i prefer Mrs but each to their own. Whatever their marital 
status all female non nun teachers at my school were referred too as 
miss.
regards Niamh

> More on "Miss, Mrs. and Ms." and "public, state and private":





From zenonah at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 13:47:09 2001
From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:47:09 -0000
Subject: Voldie hesitates (was: average Harry)
In-Reply-To: <27.1588932e.283499f2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9e0kot+na7l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18897

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:
> I think that TR/Voldie also has a flair for the dramatic, which has 
cost him 
> twice with Harry. His need to toy with his victims, like a cat with 
a field 
> mouse, prevents him from doing what he wants most - killing Harry! 
Not that 
> I'm in any hurry for Harry to die, mind you.
> 
> Toby

And how many times we've seen a movie were bad guy starts to explain 
his poor childhood, reasons or plans, so the cops can get there in 
time? I had the same feeling (not again!) when I read Voldemorts 
words: let's have a duel. Okay, this far I'm willing to believe it's 
because of his flair for the dramatic, because he thinks Harry's just 
been lucky etc. But next time they'll meet, if Voldie still won't try 
to kill Harry instantly, I'm going to be very disappointed.

I've also thought about why Harry has some power over Voldemort 
(resisting imperiatus), I think it's because in Harry there's a part 
of Voldemort. And I think that's going to be a problem when Voldemort 
tries to kill Harry. If Harry's weak, maybe Voldemort is then too? 
And maybe that gives Harry, or others, a chance to kill Voldemort?

One more thought; what if Lily was very powerful witch and Voldie 
wanted her to became his spouse, a queen of all the dark witches and 
wizards? (Yes, I read a lot of fairytales =) ) Voldemort wanted to 
kill Harry (not his child) and Lily could give birth to their own 
child. Lily of course said no and Voldemort said he would just kill 
Harry then. Maybe Voldemort was giving Lily final chance to change 
her mind, and that's what he meant by "she didn't have to die"?

Jenny




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May 17 14:01:30 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:01:30 -0000
Subject: Hermione
In-Reply-To: <20010517124933.17411.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e0ljq+u03a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18898

> 
> For some strange reason, I don't see that Hermione thinks she has
> something to prove because she's muggle-born. I have absolutely 
nothing
> to back this up with, just the fact that I never picked this up 
before.
> 
> ~Amber
*******************************
I agree with Amber on this one. I don't think Hermione gave her 
muggle-born status any thought at all, other than being proud of it. 
Her parents are both dentists and here she is a witch at Hogwarts... 
too cool! I don't even think she knew that it was a concern until 
Draco pointed it out to her at the Quidditch Cup, when he told her to 
go hide or she could be next. Even then, it didn't seem to bother her 
as much as it did Harry & Ron. IIRC, she has made no mention of 
feeling inferior or having to try harder because of her muggle status.

Doreen




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May 17 14:20:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:20:28 -0000
Subject: was British words ... Miss, Mrs. Ms. Hogwarts teachers
In-Reply-To: <9e074e+al49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0mnc+2qmh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18899


>  Sorry! But yes you're right Miss is most commonly used in schools 
to 
> address female teachers regardless of marital status. Although 
don't 
> most american children address female teachers as Ma'am, or is that 
> just a common misconception promoted by the peanuts comic strip? 
> While male teachers are addressed as either Mr or Sir depending on 
> context. Although having said that at my High School we had one 
> female teacher who was married but had kept her maiden name and 
> demanded that we called her Ms, which caused no problems it's just 
> not in widespread use. 
<snip>> 
>  Jen
**************************************88
It has always been my experience and that of my children, to call 
teachers by whatever prefix they use. The first day of school, the 
teachers usually write on the blackboard exactly what they want 
students to use to address them. Miss White or Mrs. Black. 

The only time I ever hear women being addressed as M'am is in the 
south or in the military. Yes, M'am or No, M'am might be occasionally 
used, but it is not common.  Don't forget ... this is a generation 
which has replaced, "Thank you" with, "No problem!" I remind mine 
when I hear him say this, that it is, "Thank you" NOT "No problem". 
He has learned from an early age there is playground talk and there 
is polite speech.

I noticed that the students at Hogwarts call all of the 
teachers, "professor". Is this a common thing in British schools? 
Here, usually professors are only found in college teaching.

Doreen, 




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 14:27:41 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 07:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Harry/Hermione Disagreement
In-Reply-To: <9e0kot+na7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010517142741.2173.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18900


I've been musing about the relationships between Harry, Hermione, and
Ron and thought of something. In PoA, we saw Hermione and Ron be
temporarily not friends due to the Scabbers/Crookshanks issue. In GoF,
we saw Harry and Ron be temporarily not friends due to the Goblet of
Fire issue. I wonder if in OotP or a later book, we're going to see
Hermione and Harry have a disagreement? I hesitate to say that it'll
happen because, well, Ron instigated both of the above arguments and
held the grudge. Not that I don't love Ron of course! <grin>

I'd be interested to see what Harry and Hermione would come to blows
over, though...

~Amber


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 14:28:41 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:28:41 -0400
Subject: Average Harry?
Message-ID: <F192u1bCdUg07MJJQ8700000b18@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18901

This and all quotes are from Ebony, the eloquent, the erudite, the (yes) 
extraordinary.

>Why would Riddle be afraid of an average wizard?

Once again, I don't think Harry is average, and I haven't heard from anyone 
who does.  Just normal, as in plain old human, with lots of talents, 
including some very rare ones, but nothing that places him beyond the range 
of human ability.  I realize the line is fuzzy, but it's important.

Riddle is afraid of him as opposed to, say, Ron Weasley, because his adult 
self tried to kill Harry Potter, not Ron Weasley, and failed.  Being an 
intelligent young diary entry, he is made nervous by this fact.

>So what you're saying is that the perception that There's Something Special
>About Harry will protect him?

Actually, I forgot to say one bit:  I don't think we can draw any 
conclusions about Harry's vulnerability or lack thereof by the fact (or 
hope) that Harry needs to be safe from assassins after Book 7.  Okay, there 
will still be people who hate him after the story ends.  This is true of a 
lot of heroes, and I don't close the book thinking, "But what if a bitter 
lackey-of-villain comes after him and gets him?"  Maybe I ought to.  I do 
think it's unlikely that any leftover Death Eaters are going to risk their 
necks to kill Harry once their master is gone, but even though it's 
possible, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

To skip to the end of your post, we agree that evil ebbs and flows, 
sometimes personified by a particularly strong and evil person (e.g. Hitler, 
Stalin, Amin in our own world), and good and brave people rise up to 
struggle against it (and him/her).  So, to look at a real-life example:  
Hitler is dead, and Nazism very weakened, but it isn't gone.  The Holocaust 
is over, but there are still stragglers, inspired by their dead master, 
whose passion is to murder "the enemies of the Third Reich."  There aren't 
tidy endings in real life, and it's okay with me if Harry is not safe and 
happy forever when Book 7 comes to a close.

Amy: >For my part, I don't for a moment think that Harry can't be hurt by
>Voldemort.  <snip>

Ebony: >I totally agree with this, and even tried to start a thread on it 
some time
>back (January?)... "how could Voldemort go about killing Harry?"  There 
>were
>no takers.  I suppose no one wanted to talk about Harry head.

Yes, I can see why.  It made me feel a bit queasy just writing the bit about 
V cutting his throat.  Ugh, I did it again.

>I don't believe in luck, but for the purpose of the discussion, let's just
>say that luck, the Sacrifice, and strength of character all played a role 
>in
>Harry's protection in the past and continuing protection.  This threefold
>combination still makes him special... how many other kids fall into this
>category?

Again, maybe we're only disagreeing on this point (or rather, appear to be) 
because we're talking at cross purposes.  I do think Harry is special.  
Don't we all?

The Everyman myth as I understand it is not incompatible with "special," 
"gifted," even "unusual."  Harry is all those things.  I'm not sure if he's 
Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan rolled into one, but I agree with Jim that 
even if he is, he's still not superhuman (though when I've seen Jordan play, 
I have wondered . . .).

>After reading this, I finally understood why I'm in the less popular camp.
>It goes beyond Harry Potter... it's a way of seeing life, I think.
>
>My personal worldview is that everything that happens, everything that ever
>is, was, or will be is by intelligent design.

Yes, you're right--this is where we diverge.  I don't know if it puts you in 
the less popular camp, though, at least out in the world beyond HP.  Most 
people I know believe some version of "everything happens for a reason."

>I wonder what role prophecy will play in future books.  There will be a
>role, if only a comic one.  JKR seems to poke fun of it through the guise 
>of
>Trelawney.  Yet... there are prophecies, and then there are *prophecies*.  
>I
>hope she doesn't intend to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

I actually don't think she does.  In the "HP and the Bible" thread recently, 
several people argued that JKR thinks divination is a lot of hooey.  I'm 
sorry to give any ammunition to the "HP is leading us all into SATAN 
WORSHIP" camp, but I disagree; I think that at the very least, the jury's 
still out, and I told Richard Abanes so in an offlist post.  Dumbledore says 
that true Seers and prophecies are very rare, but he doesn't say they're 
unheard-of; I think that he, and by extension JKR, probably does believe in 
them.  (Or maybe she just likes them because they're such a delicious plot 
device, especially if one is never sure if the person speaking is Trelawney 
the Tired Old Fraud or Trelawney the True Seer.)

BTW, one doesn't have to believe that the events of life are by intelligent 
design to believe that true prophecy is possible.  I believe (agnostically, 
to be sure--I'm not so arrogant as to imagine that I =know=) that events are 
contingent:  each the product of so many other events, some of which are 
random, that it is all but impossible to predict far into the future.  But 
rare people with the gift of the right kind of perception may be able to see 
likely outcomes.  They'll never be 100% right, but there are patterns to 
existence, and some people perceive them better than others, the way some 
people can look at a chessboard and see 5 moves ahead.  Most of us have to 
make our decisions based on experience, common sense, and gut-level decency, 
so that we save the cringing Pettigrew (I hope) even though we can't 
possibly know whether it will lead to good or evil in the long run.

>no one in the Special!Harry camp thinks that the poor kid's the Second 
>Coming, now.

Oh, good!  He has quite enough on his shoulders, don't you think?  <vbg>

Both of us take positions solidly between "Harry's just like everyone else" 
and "Harry's the Second Coming."  I just sit closer to the former and you 
closer to the latter.

>Rather, the art of story is about conflict, about struggle, about change 
>and upheaval and all sorts
>of things.
>
>Now, it can be argued that these sorts of things happen to ordinary people
>all the time.  But when ordinary people are the protagonists of the story,
>the narrative focuses on the factors causing the upheaval (circumstances,
>the environment, etc.) rather than the people themselves.

I'm having trouble thinking about the protagonists of some of my favorite 
works of fiction and sorting out whether they are ordinary or extraordinary, 
or whether the key factors are internal or external to them.  Things are 
such a mixture, in fiction as in real life.  But one comes to mind who is a 
prototype for the best in modern fiction, fantasy, and scifi, in my view.  
Sorry, all of you JRRT unenthusiasts, but it's Frodo Baggins.  Is he the 
ordinary or the extraordinary?  Both.  Does the drama in his story come from 
external events or internal qualities?  Both.  There's this magic Ring and a 
world war on and all that, but the most gripping chapters of the drama, for 
me, are the ones about Frodo's internal struggles, which are responses to 
these grand events but also responses to himself.  The conflict and change 
he experiences has as much to do with his own character (ordinary though it 
is) as with the events that are shaking his world.  He has no X-ray vision 
or superhuman strength to move the story along, but he does have remarkable 
integrity, and seeing it under fire =from his own other qualities= (not just 
from the Eye) makes for thrilling reading.

>The characters we remember are the ones with larger-than-life characters.
>The characters who stand out in our minds for some reason.  Not just 
>because
>of what happened to them, but because of *who they are*.

I'm on board with your last two sentences, but not with the first.  Shevek 
of Anarres (protagonist of Ursula LeGuin's The Dispossessed) will never stop 
haunting my mind, because of who he is more than because of what happens in 
his world (which in many ways is nothing extraordinary at all--just the 
social and political wranglings of humans everywhere).  But it's not because 
he has any superhuman qualities or is in any way larger-than-life, even 
though he is a brilliant, groundbreaking physicist.  Quite the contrary.  
It's because I feel like I have gotten inside his skin the way I do only 
with my closest friends.  He is a remarkable person, like Harry, but it is 
the intimacy of knowing him so well that makes him live on in my mind--which 
is true of Harry as well.  "Larger-than-life" interferes with this for me.  
The heroes who stay with me for years and years are the ones who are 
life-sized.  Perhaps we're just defining "larger-than-life" differently?

I am in awe of Harry in lots of ways--just for a start, his physical courage 
puts me to shame--but I think he and I are the same size, metaphorically 
speaking.  He's not out of reach.  I think Amber drew the distinction pretty 
well.  So far JKR has kept Harry very down-to-earth and believable, partly 
through the time-honored method (beloved by comic book authors) of giving 
him metaphorical weaknesses such as untidy hair and bad eyesight, and partly 
by making him a flawed person.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------
"This is the weirdest thing we've ever
done," Harry said fervently.
       --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-----------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu May 17 14:58:17 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:58:17 -0000
Subject: Frank Bryce: his life and times
In-Reply-To: <9e0apr+d5p4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0ou9+eg9h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18902

Frank Bryce was born in late summer or fall of 1917. He served in the 
beginning of World War II and came home in the early 1940s with an 
injured leg and a somewhat anti-social demeanor. He served as the 
Riddle's gardener for several years. During the summer of 1944, Tom 
Riddle Jr. showed up and murdered his father and grandparents in 
their drawing room. Frank was nearing his 27th birthday at the time. 
For the following fifty years, Frank tended the grounds of the Riddle 
house. Then one night in July of 1994, fifty years later, he 
discovered that the old house had been broken into by a strange group 
of beings: Voldemort, Nagini, and Wormtail. Voldemort killed Frank 
Bryce. He was nearing his 77th birthday when he died.

Using the assumption that "fifty years" can be taken literally -- and 
for the purposes of the timeline, we do assume that -- this 
information is canon. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
home of the best HP timeline in the world
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 15:02:17 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:02:17 -0000
Subject: last chance!
Message-ID: <9e0p5p+kspv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18903

This is your last chance to submit a poem about a character in the HP 
universe to the weekly contest.  Submit it in the next hour or two by 
emailing it to HP4GUCon at aol.com

--Joywitch




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 15:02:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:02:27 -0000
Subject: Dementors - Hermione
Message-ID: <9e0p63+tbao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18904

David wrote:

> What I have in mind is that the D's may already be working against 
the MOM
> and Dumbledore, if not actually for Voldemort, and are targeting 
Harry -
> see the Quidditch match and the lakeside later.  Taking out Barty 
Crouch Jr
> so he couldn't testify might be part of this, and they might have 
some sort
> of hold over Fudge too, warping his judgement.

Toby wrote:

>Wow...this is so obvious, I feel really dumb for not having thought 
of it
>sooner.  :-) What an excellent idea! That makes so much more sense 
than the
>dumb answer Lupin gave about them "feeding of the excitement and 
happiness"
>of the Quidditch match. That never made sense to me at all, because 
the
>Patronus is supposedly pure joy, and it *repells* Dementors, not 
attract
>them. So why would they be attracted to the joy of the match?

I want to add my kudos for David's idea but also defend Lupin's.  
Dementors feed off human feelings, and the ones guarding Hogwarts 
haven't had close contact with too many humans lately.  Every once in 
awhile someone goes through the gate and gives them a gulp or two, 
that's all.  So it makes perfect sense to me that they find the 
"feast" of a Quidditch crowd irresistible.

The fuzzy explanation, IMO, is the one about the Patronus.  Why does 
it scare away Dementors?  I'm going to quibble with Lupin's 
explanation (or consider it incomplete) and say that they flee from 
Patroni because despite the latter being made out of happiness, it is 
inaccessible to Dementors because, not being part of a human psyche, 
it's invulnerable.  Something like that.

A "me too" to those who have said that among Hermione's motivations 
for taking so many classes is a tremendous love of learning.  A 
certain overachiever closely related to me :ahem: has been known to 
take on too many classes, projects, senior theses, etc. just because 
they were all so interesting and she couldn't say no to any of them.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
 Those who have been stung by a Billywig suffer 
 giddiness followed by levitation.  Generations of 
 young Australian witches and wizards have attempted 
 to catch Billywigs and provoke them into stinging 
 in order to enjoy these side effects . . . 
           -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
-----------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 15:08:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:08:06 -0000
Subject: Frank Bryce: his life and times
In-Reply-To: <9e0ou9+eg9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0pgm+is6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18905

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> Frank Bryce was born in late summer or fall of 1917. He served in 
the 
> beginning of World War II and came home in the early 1940s with an 
> injured leg and a somewhat anti-social demeanor. He served as the 
> Riddle's gardener for several years. During the summer of 1944, Tom 
> Riddle Jr. showed up and murdered his father and grandparents in 
> their drawing room. Frank was nearing his 27th birthday at the time. 
> For the following fifty years, Frank tended the grounds of the 
Riddle 
> house. Then one night in July of 1994, fifty years later, he 
> discovered that the old house had been broken into by a strange 
group 
> of beings: Voldemort, Nagini, and Wormtail. Voldemort killed Frank 
> Bryce. He was nearing his 77th birthday when he died.
> 
> Using the assumption that "fifty years" can be taken literally -- 
and 
> for the purposes of the timeline, we do assume that -- this 
> information is canon. 

Jenfold raises an interesting possibility, though--how do we know the 
war he went off to is WWII?  Is that bit canon?  

I think it must be WWII because if he was in WWI, he would be about 94 
 in GoF (put his birthdate at 1900, make him 17 when he went to war) 
and that is very old indeed.  Possible, but not likely.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 "Very haunted up here, isn't it?" said Ron, 
 with the air of one commenting on the weather.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------- 




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu May 17 15:14:25 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:14:25 -0000
Subject: Frank Bryce: his life and times
In-Reply-To: <9e0pgm+is6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0psh+qr9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18906


> Jenfold raises an interesting possibility, though--how do we know 
the 
> war he went off to is WWII?  Is that bit canon

According to the book, he encountered Voldemort and his gang as he 
was nearing his 77th birthday, so he was 26 in the summer of 1944. I 
suppose he could have been in some other war--there are always wars 
going on--but generally speaking, "the war" refers to WWI until about 
1939, then WWII after that. Since WWII fits the timeline as given, I 
think it's a safe assumption.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 15:14:43 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dead Harry
In-Reply-To: <F192u1bCdUg07MJJQ8700000b18@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010517151443.28623.qmail@web1603.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18907


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Ebony: I totally agree with this, and even tried to start a thread
> > on it some time back (January?)... "how could Voldemort go about
> > killing Harry?" There were no takers.  I suppose no one wanted to
> > talk about Harry dead.
> 
> Yes, I can see why.  It made me feel a bit queasy just writing the
> bit about V cutting his throat.  Ugh, I did it again.

Okay, I'll bite. <grins wickedly> Warning, the following is not for the
light of heart. If you can't stand the thought of Harry's death, I
suggest you hit that nice little "delete" button.

I see a couple possibilities. If Harry turns out to have an
extra-special "talent" or "power", I could see Voldemort trying to
sacrifice Harry during some sort of spell. I'm still fuzzy about the
magic rules in JKR's world, but it seems to be the norm for magic
worlds that the ritual sacrifice of magical people releases a lot of
power. I would imagine that Voldemort would use the power released from
Harry's Death to complete some sort of world-dominating spell. Probably
pierce Harry through the heart or something to release that power. Or
maybe split his head open at the scar?

If there's no extra talent, well, I imagine that Voldemort would be
able to get to Harry through Harry's blood in V's veins. When Pettigrew
used Harry's blood to help "raise" Voldemort, I sat up in my chair and
said "Aha!". I can see this as both a strength and a weakness for
Voldemort. It depends how JKR wants to write it. As a strength example,
Voldemort can use the blood to "call" Harry, have him leave Hogwarts
and come to him. At that point, well, Voldemort will either want to
make an example of Harry (kill him in a very public way for maximum
shock) or get rid of him as quickly as possible (Avada Kedavra him). If
he leaves his emotions out of it, Voldie will kill him as quickly as
possible. 

Another way that Voldemort could attempt to kill Harry is through the
tried and true method of an intermediary (another Crouch/Moody). During
summer break, subject one of the Hogwarts students to his will. We've
seen teachers being used by Voldie, why not students? Use the old
imperius (sp?) curse and try to have the student kill Harry. However, I
don't see this happening very much as its been done. 

Er, I know! Have dragons attack Hogwarts and flame it! Or Hagrid will
turn to the dark side, and lead the giants to Hogwarts to smash it!

I could go on and on and on...I'm rather fond of Voldemort splitting
Harry's head open at the scar though, whether its through ritual
sacrifice or not.

~Amber


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May 17 15:24:30 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:24:30 -0000
Subject: British words
In-Reply-To: <9e074e+al49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0qfe+uoso@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18908

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> > I wanted to add my name to the chorus of Americans who HAVE heard 
> the 
> > word "tripe" used to mean "nonsense."  This may be a regional 
> thing; 
> > remember the "out of pocket" discussion?
> > 
> > Also, Amy Z.  said that she hoped that the word "Miss" has, more 
> > recently, been replaced with "Ms." in British public schools.
> 
>  Public schools I have no idea about, as for some reason (why I 
know 
> not) schools which are called public schools in the UK are actually 
> fairly exclusive private schools such as Eton or 'Smeltings.'
> 
>  What Americans call public shools we call state schools.
>  
>   While I have noticed that in Ms. is commonly used in the U.S., 
> especially 
> > in professional situations, I get the impression that this is 
less 
> > true in the U.K.  Is it true that Brits are more like to use Miss 
> and 
> > Mrs. than Americans are?  (Although I have to agree with Amy -- I 
> > dont like being called Miss OR Mrs. at all, especially in a 
> > professional setting.  What does my marital status have to do 
with 
> > professional abilities?)
> 
>  Sorry! But yes you're right Miss is most commonly used in schools 
to 
> address female teachers regardless of marital status. Although 
don't 
> most american children address female teachers as Ma'am, or is that 
> just a common misconception promoted by the peanuts comic strip? 
> While male teachers are addressed as either Mr or Sir depending on 
> context. Although having said that at my High School we had one 
> female teacher who was married but had kept her maiden name and 
> demanded that we called her Ms, which caused no problems it's just 
> not in widespread use. 

Some all boys' schools are sticklers for titles.  I cannot for the 
life of me remember where I got this anecdote from, but it was told 
to me first hand by someone.  He refered to a school teacher as Mr ---
 (insert whatever his sirname was).  The teacher in question rounded 
on him and said, "Sir to you, boy!"

Charming!

Catherine




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 15:26:26 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:26:26 -0000
Subject: was Wordplay  in HP ... Tripe
In-Reply-To: <9durlj+tcbo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0qj2+ejpe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18909

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> People actually eat stomach lining on the east coast? Do you fry it 
> or what?
> 
> Doreen, who is about as familiar with tripe as she is chittlins

It's a "delicacy", which is just a horrible misnomer for "leftover
bits that you usually wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole".  :^)

Actually, menudo--i.e, tripe soup, not the erstwhile boyband, nor 
loose change--is seen often enough in Latino cooking.  The French
use tripe in various local dishes (consider tripe ? la lyonnaise).
Or how about Luxemburgish Kuddelfleck?  Or Irish tripe with onions?

Of course, familiarity with tripe doesn't mean we eat it, even
on rare occasions.  :^)  And this, despite personally having eaten
brains, sweetbreads, liver, sow's ear, blood sausages, snails,
various mollusks and crustaceans.

....Craig, who likes "grass" Bertie Bott's beans too, to stay on-topic




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 15:36:23 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:36:23 -0000
Subject: Dead Harry - Remus on Sirius
Message-ID: <9e0r5n+lnlc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18911

Amber, you is a bad dark wizard.  I can't believe you wrote that 
subject line.  Notice, however, that I'm leaving it be.  I'm even 
adding my 2 gory Knuts.

> Voldemort will either want to
> make an example of Harry (kill him in a very public way for maximum
> shock) or get rid of him as quickly as possible (Avada Kedavra him). 
If
> he leaves his emotions out of it, Voldie will kill him as quickly as
> possible. 

Here's some free advice for Voldemort:  you can have the best of 
both worlds by killing someone quickly and quietly and then 
=displaying his body= in some disgusting, very public way for maximum 
shock.  It's the old put-their-heads-on-a-stake trick, and it's worked 
for Evil Overlords for centuries.

I can only bring myself to say all this because I'm so sure JKR isn't 
going to kill Harry.  I'm not so sure about Hagrid, though, or 
::sob!:: Lupin . . .

Speaking of whom, Magda wrote:

>And I don't think that Lupin had slammed the door shut on friendship
>with Black.  After all, once Black escaped from prison, Lupin could
>have gone to Dumbledore at least and advised him to watch out for a
>big black dog as well as for Black himself.  It would have been a big
>help to the authorities.  But Lupin didn't do that.  Could it be that
>deep down inside he couldn't bring himself to do it?

This resonates with me.  He says he was rationalizing because he 
didn't want to confess to Dumbledore that he'd betrayed his trust back 
in his school days; I'm sure if asked who betrayed James and Lily, he 
would say Sirius; but deep down, I think he still wonders if somehow, 
Sirius could be innocent.  All the evidence points toward Sirius's 
guilt, but when you know someone so well and you know that he would 
die for you or for the people he is supposed to have betrayed, I 
imagine some innermost part of you can cling to your judgment and 
intuition, even if the evidence is against you.

Amy Z
                 
------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Thu May 17 15:19:02 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:19:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin on the train (was Re: conjuring things -  Remus)
References: <20010517112222.43713.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B03EBE6.D4AFB4CB@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 18912



Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Lupin was on the train:
>
> 1.  To get to Hogwarts himself.
>
> 2.  To protect the son of the best friend he ever had from being
> harmed in some way by another mutal friend who apparently betrayed
> them all a dozen years earlier and committed mass murder.

I think that Lupin was most likely informed of things before the school year began. He was most likely traveling on the train because he couldn't find another way to get there, and to "protect" Harry...just mho...

Hugs
Jamieson

--

"Westley and I are joined by the bonds of love,
and you cannot track it, not with a thousand
blood houds. And you cannot break it, not with a
thousand swords. And when I say you are a
coward, it is only because you are the slimiest
 weakling ever to crawl the earth!" - Buttercup
from 'The Princess Bride'

"There is a shortage of very perfect breasts in this world.
It would be a pity to damage yours." -
Wesley in The Princess Bride





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May 17 15:50:03 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:50:03 -0000
Subject: Harry/Hermione Disagreement
In-Reply-To: <20010517142741.2173.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e0rvb+aj09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18913

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> 
> I've been musing about the relationships between Harry, Hermione, 
and
> Ron and thought of something. In PoA, we saw Hermione and Ron be
> temporarily not friends due to the Scabbers/Crookshanks issue. In 
GoF,
> we saw Harry and Ron be temporarily not friends due to the Goblet of
> Fire issue. I wonder if in OotP or a later book, we're going to see
> Hermione and Harry have a disagreement? I hesitate to say that it'll
> happen because, well, Ron instigated both of the above arguments and
> held the grudge. Not that I don't love Ron of course! <grin>
> 
> I'd be interested to see what Harry and Hermione would come to blows
> over, though...
> 
> ~Amber

They already have!  Harry was furious with Hermione because she tells 
Professor McGonagall about her suspicions re: the Firebolt.  He and 
Ron treat her badly over the rest of the Christmas holidays, and we 
don't see Harry actually talking to her again until the Firebolt is 
returned.

He also takes a very passive role in the Hermione/Ron feud.  Hermione 
thinks that he is taking Ron's side - and it seems obvious that, 
although on the odd occassion when he asks Ron to give her a break, 
he is spending most of his time with Ron, and not being as fair-
minded as Hermione is during the Ron/Harry feud.  She tries to stop 
Harry from going to Hogsmeade as well, which makes her even less 
popular.  It seems that Harry isn't supporting her as she should - 
even Hagrid takes them both to task over it.  It isn't until the 
first Buckbeak case is lost that things get back to normal.

In this case, it seems that Harry takes the easy way out - but it is 
also true to say that because of her workload, Hermione didn't have 
much time to spend with them anyway.  

I can't imagine them having a proper, prolonged argument though.  I 
have always seen the two of them as quite conciliatory and 
accommodating people - unlike Ron who does have a tendency to bear 
grudges to a greater extent.

Catherine

Catherine




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu May 17 16:00:09 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:00:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British words
References: <9e074e+al49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004101c0deea$750eed80$2de7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 18914


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jenfold at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 5:54 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British words



  Sorry! But yes you're right Miss is most commonly used in schools to 
  address female teachers regardless of marital status. Although don't 
  most american children address female teachers as Ma'am, or is that 
  just a common misconception promoted by the peanuts comic strip? 

  I believe that is a misconception.  At most schools, female teachers are addressed by a title and their last name.  What that title is depends on the teacher and what she asks to be called.  Teachers usually introduce themselves at the beginning of the year, telling children how they are to be addressed.  Now at the rural southern school where I've been teaching, all female teachers and adults are addressed as Ms. (pronounced Mizz) or "Mih."  But I think that's just because of their accents.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 16:00:51 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:00:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry/Hermione Disagreement
In-Reply-To: <9e0rvb+aj09@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010517160051.26227.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18915


--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> >I wonder if in OotP or a later book, we're going to see
> > Hermione and Harry have a disagreement? 
 
> They already have!  Harry was furious with Hermione because she tells
> Professor McGonagall about her suspicions re: the Firebolt.  He and 
> Ron treat her badly over the rest of the Christmas holidays, and we 
> don't see Harry actually talking to her again until the Firebolt is 
> returned.

<slaps forehead> Okay, that's what I get for writing musing posts. I
can't *believe* I forgot about the Firebolt incident! Thank you for
reminding me Catherine! Never mind all...

<walks away muttering about brains that don't work properly> 

~Amber


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From devika261 at aol.com  Thu May 17 16:22:12 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:22:12 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dead Harry
Message-ID: <a9.15ac5d86.283554b4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18916

In a message dated 5/17/01 10:39:20 AM EST, aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:

<< Magda wrote:
 
 >And I don't think that Lupin had slammed the door shut on friendship
 >with Black.  After all, once Black escaped from prison, Lupin could
 >have gone to Dumbledore at least and advised him to watch out for a
 >big black dog as well as for Black himself.  It would have been a big
 >help to the authorities.  But Lupin didn't do that.  Could it be that
 >deep down inside he couldn't bring himself to do it?
 
 This resonates with me.  He says he just rationalized that Black's 
 Animagic wasn't important to the case because he didn't want to 
 confess to Dumbledore that he'd betrayed his trust back in his school 
 days; I'm sure if asked who betrayed James and Lily, he would say 
 Sirius; but deep down, I think he still wonders if somehow, Sirius 
 could be innocent.  All the evidence points toward Sirius's guilt, but 
 when you know someone so well and you know that he would die for you 
 or for the people he is supposed to have betrayed, I imagine some 
 innermost part of you can cling to your judgment and intuition, even 
 if the evidence is against you.
  >>
I agree!  Just another reason why I love him :)
Devika



From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 16:24:29 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:24:29 -0000
Subject: Suspended Our Words (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9ds26q+cif6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0tvt+rgku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18917

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Author's Note: Something I just recently noticed is that Draco's 
> sidekicks Crabbe and Goyle, though they are variously described as 
> sniggering, grinning, laughing, rubbing their knuckles, chuckling 
> trollishly, chortling, etc., etc, have no dialogue assigned to them 
> at all in the entire series.  They are occasionally observed to be 
> speaking with Draco, but the content of these colloquies is 
withheld 
> from the reader.  The only time the speech of "Crabbe" and "Goyle" 
is 
> recorded is in CoS, when they are being impersonated via Polyjuice 
by 
> Harry and Ron. 
> 

Interesting observation, CMC, and great filk!  I never realized it 
before, but I think you are right...I can not remember even one 
specific word ever uttered out loud by Crabbe or Goyle. Is JKR doing 
this on purpose?  Will they someday speak to us, thus revealing 
something important?  Or will they grunt and snigger their way thru 
all 7 books?

--Joywitch





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu May 17 16:22:27 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:22:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DementorSeekers
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F8FC3@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 18918

 
> David wrote:
> > What I have in mind is that the D's may already be working against 
> the MOM
> > and Dumbledore, if not actually for Voldemort, and are targeting 
> Harry -
> > see the Quidditch match and the lakeside later.  Taking out Barty 
> Crouch Jr
> > so he couldn't testify might be part of this, and they might have 
> some sort
> > of hold over Fudge too, warping his judgement.
 
> Toby wrote:
> >Wow...this is so obvious, I feel really dumb for not having thought 
> of it
> >sooner.  :-) What an excellent idea! That makes so much more sense 
> than the
> >dumb answer Lupin gave about them "feeding of the excitement and 
> happiness"
> >of the Quidditch match. That never made sense to me at all, because 
> the
> >Patronus is supposedly pure joy, and it *repells* Dementors, not 
> attract
> >them. So why would they be attracted to the joy of the match?

Amy wrote:
> I want to add my kudos for David's idea but also defend Lupin's.  
> Dementors feed off human feelings, and the ones guarding Hogwarts 
> haven't had close contact with too many humans lately.  Every once in 
> awhile someone goes through the gate and gives them a gulp or two, 
> that's all.  So it makes perfect sense to me that they find the 
> "feast" of a Quidditch crowd irresistible.
> 
And they're not necessarily after the "joy" of seeking victory among the
players and their supporters - Lupin says that the "emotions running high"
and the "excitement" were what attracted him - could that mean, instead of
the joy spectators feel at a sporting event, they were attracted to the
emotions of beating, destroying, trouncing and winning over the other side,
the "offensive" emotions and goals; it's likely that the crowd's mass
emotions were tipping toward the negative side



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 16:34:21 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:34:21 -0000
Subject: Suspended Our Words (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9e0tvt+rgku@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e0uid+fb2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18919

Caius Marcius wrote:

> > Author's Note: Something I just recently noticed is that Draco's 
> > sidekicks Crabbe and Goyle, though they are variously described as 
> > sniggering, grinning, laughing, rubbing their knuckles, chuckling 
> > trollishly, chortling, etc., etc, have no dialogue assigned to 
them 
> > at all in the entire series.  

Joywitch wrote:
> 
> Interesting observation, CMC, and great filk!  I never realized it 
> before, but I think you are right...I can not remember even one 
> specific word ever uttered out loud by Crabbe or Goyle. Is JKR doing 
> this on purpose?  Will they someday speak to us, thus revealing 
> something important?  Or will they grunt and snigger their way thru 
> all 7 books?

Having recently concluded that they haven't spoken, I was hoping on my 
last re-listen of GF that the senior Crabbe and Goyle would also only 
grunt, but IIRC, they mutter some audible words.  

Great filk as always, CM!

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
 Ron, who had been gazing at Harry, said, "You don't
 know how bizarre it is to see Goyle =thinking=."
                        -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
-------------------------------------------------------




From devika261 at aol.com  Thu May 17 16:36:33 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:36:33 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Hermione Disagreement
Message-ID: <bc.1494ae1e.28355811@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18920

In a message dated 5/17/01 9:32:41 AM EST, reanna20 at yahoo.com writes:

<< I've been musing about the relationships between Harry, Hermione, and
 Ron and thought of something. In PoA, we saw Hermione and Ron be
 temporarily not friends due to the Scabbers/Crookshanks issue. In GoF,
 we saw Harry and Ron be temporarily not friends due to the Goblet of
 Fire issue. I wonder if in OotP or a later book, we're going to see
 Hermione and Harry have a disagreement? I hesitate to say that it'll
 happen because, well, Ron instigated both of the above arguments and
 held the grudge. Not that I don't love Ron of course! <grin>
 
 I'd be interested to see what Harry and Hermione would come to blows
 over, though... >>

Although there have been times when Harry and Hermione haven't been very 
happy with each other (the Firebolt issue in PoA), I don't see them having a 
real disagreement like the one Harry had with Ron in GF.  I think that 
Harry's losses in his life have made him value the friends he has even more, 
and he would try not to alienate them.  Also, we know how miserable he was 
when he and Ron weren't speaking, so I don't think he would want to repeat 
that with Hermione.  Harry does have a bit of a temper, but even if his 
temper were to threaten to get the better of him, I think Hermione would 
prevent that from happening.  Hermione seems to be very understanding of both 
Harry and Ron, and I'm sure that even when she was angry with them, she 
*understood* why they were acting the way they were.  Both she and Harry are 
far less likely than Ron to hold grudges, especially against each other, and 
Harry's recent experiences with Voldemort have probably made both Ron and 
Hermione realize how much Harry means to them.  In the times that are coming, 
I can see their friendship becoming much more important to all of them, so I 
don't see any major disagreements ahead.  (I hope)
:)
Devika



From qatet at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 16:41:20 2001
From: qatet at hotmail.com (qatet at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:41:20 -0000
Subject: Magic Imitations
Message-ID: <9e0uvg+fn00@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18921

Hello all.  

During the last few threads - the one about conjuring things and the 
nature of magic, and the one that touched on boggarts - I've come to 
my own few questions about the nature of magic and how it relates 
to "real" creatures/objects.

When somebody transfigures something inanimate and makes it a living 
creature (McG's desk to pig always sticks in my mind) have they then 
created a real viable creature?  Does changing it back to a desk then 
constitute a murder of sorts?  

The same goes for boggarts... Surely somebody out there has Voldemort 
as their greatest fear.  What would happen if they were to see a 
boggart then?  Would the boggart be capable of the same damage that 
the real Voldemort is?  

and... the standard "hello, I've been lurking but now rear my head" 
greeting.

Kate






From zenonah at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 16:44:45 2001
From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:44:45 -0000
Subject: Differencies in HP-books?
Message-ID: <9e0v5t+cjr1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18922

Hi!

I ordered my first three HP books via net from the local bookstore, 
and of course I chose the cheapest ones. I got SS and PoA long time 
ago and few days ago I got finally CoS. First ones were british but 
CoS is american. (I'm in Finland)

My question is: what are the exact differences between british and 
american editions? Is anywhere somekind of list of these differences? 
I didn't get very high number in HP-fanatic-test, but I still would 
like to write down these differences into my books. =)

Thank You, Jenny

(I also got FB and now I'm waiting anxiously my QTA and for GoF's 
price to come down)




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu May 17 16:44:37 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:44:37 -0500
Subject: Average Harry -- Harry & Hermione Potential Conflict
References: <9dr5n2+vg62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B03FFF5.46094BFA@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18923

Hi --

Attempting to read & reply to emails whilst holding colicky baby in
front carrier ....<g>

Have to come to Ebony's aid since we are in the distinct minority ...

Amy Z wrote:

> For my part, I don't for a moment think that Harry can't be hurt by
> Voldemort.  I think if V had skipped the duelling drama and just cut
> Harry's throat while he had him bound to the tombstone, that would
> have been the end of the story.  To some extent, Voldemort is
> right-Harry has escaped him through luck.  But not only luck:  also
> through Lily's sacrifice and, in later encounters, Harry's own
> strength of character (cf our discussion on why Harry's wand forced
> Voldemort's to regurgitate its spells and not the other way around).
> It's =possible= that from his birth there has been something about
> Harry that makes it inherently impossible for Voldemort to kill him,
> but I doubt it.
>
I don't think Harry is immortal.  In SS/PS, CoS & GoF, he escaped
Voldemort for a combination of reasons (luck, strength of character,
deux ex machina (Fawkes), timing (poor on Voldy's part), etc.).  But,
what about when he was an infant -- the "Boy Who Lived"?  Luck?
Strength of character?  Lily's sacrifice?  In my mind, there has to be
more to this than luck or Lily's sacrifice.

First, it defies logic that she is the *only* mother in Voldy War I to
have died trying to protect her child.  That just doesn't make sense to
me.  We know that Arthur Weasley says that a witch or wizard dreaded
coming home to find the Dark Mark hovering over his house ... strong
implication that many families (families with *children*) were killed in
that first War.

Second, we know from Dumbledore that Voldemort (Quirrell) couldn't touch
Harry in PS/SS because of the layer of protection given to him by his
mother's sacrifice.  But, the layer of protection is not necessarily an
explanation for why Voldemort's AK spell *rebounded* on Voldemort,
zapping him of his powers.  To me, it makes sense that her sacrifice
could have prevented Voldemort from harming her infant son -- that's the
protection.  But, Harry didn't just survive.  He dispatched Voldemort
too.  I know Hagrid isn't a very reliable source, but I still think back
to his observation that there was something about Harry that Voldy
hadn't counted on.  "There's something about Harry" ....

I think there was something about infant Harry that was special.  I
think child/adolescent Harry remains special.  We the readers are shown
in GoF that not only is Ron unusually susceptible to the Imperius Curse,
but we are also shown that Harry is unusually adept at shaking it off.
Yes, he has faults, weaknesses and is unmistakeably human (and not
immortal).  But, he does seem to have some rare or unusual talents.  I
don't necessarily mean he's special as in Superhuman (or un-human) in
the vein of Superman (or the Magid/Mage powers that Lori & Cassie have
bestowed him with in fanfic).  But, I do think Harry has stronger than
average innate magical abilities, and I don't have a problem imagining
that he has a destiny.

> If Harry is triumphant it will be not because he was destined to be
> so ("the stars have been read wrongly before now," after all) but
> because of what he chose to make of his considerable talents.
>
I don't think he is destined to be triumphant.  I think he could be
destined to be a threat, and it will be his choices (combined with using
his strengths and overcoming his weaknesses) that will determine the
final outcome.  I don't discount the argument that a strong theme within
the books has to do with the choices and the ability of a person to
shape his/her own moral development & character through good or bad
choices.  But, as Ebony noted, one can have a destiny & still have
choices.

> Ebony said:
> In each book, Harry finds out something new about himself... much of which
> is setting him apart from his peers.  That, coupled with his experiences,
> just may make for increased alienation in future books... the quiet
> denouement of GoF comes to mind.
>
I think we will see more & more of Harry distancing himself from others
-- yes, even Ron & Hermione.  He's bound to realize that his friendship
with them (and his relationships with others such as Hagrid, Sirius,
Lupin) put them at risk.  Which brings me to ...

Amber wrote:

> I'd be interested to see what Harry and Hermione would come to blows
> over, though...
>
Hermione isn't going to like Harry distancing himself from them (neither
will Ron ... but I can forsee Hermione being more vocal & stubborn about
it than Ron).  I see this as a potential source of conflict in that
relationship.  OR, if you don't like that one --

There's always my favorite: FITD (it's in the VFAQs document in the
Files area for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about).
Yes, FITD.  That could well drive a wedge between Harry & Hermione (not
a permanent wedge mind you ...).

Of course, it goes without saying that *I* don't see the potential for
any long-term conflict between Harry & Hermione.  They're just too darn
compatible.  <g>

Catherine just wrote:

> They already have!  Harry was furious with Hermione because she tells
> Professor McGonagall about her suspicions re: the Firebolt.  He and
> Ron treat her badly over the rest of the Christmas holidays, and we
> don't see Harry actually talking to her again until the Firebolt is
> returned.
>
Well, but my impression is that Ron is more furious with Hermione over
this than Harry, even though Harry is the aggrieved party.  IIRC, this
incident sort of overlaps with the Crookshanks/Scabbers episode too.  I
think Harry realizes fairly early on that she was only looking out for
his best interests, but he *is* very passive about making amends with
her until he actually has the Firebolt back in hand.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Thu May 17 17:09:17 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:09:17 -0000
Subject: Average Harry -- Harry & Hermione Potential Conflict
In-Reply-To: <3B03FFF5.46094BFA@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9e10jt+p5u9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18924

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> we know from Dumbledore that Voldemort (Quirrell) couldn't touch
> Harry in PS/SS because of the layer of protection given to him by 
his
> mother's sacrifice.  But, the layer of protection is not 
necessarily an
> explanation for why Voldemort's AK spell *rebounded* on Voldemort,
> zapping him of his powers. 

Yes, I believe from V's explanation to the DEs that he doesn't really 
know what happened, certainly not how he survived to the extent he 
did (he uses the word 'apparently'. (IMO, Dumbledore's gleam isn't 
about mixing blood, but realising that V is still ignorant of 
something important, probably about Harry - sorry if that's already 
been done to death).  Briefly, at the end of PS/SS we have three 
implied questions 1 why did Harry survive? 2 why did V get almost 
killed? 3 why did V want to kill H in the first place? D gives the 
answer to 1 (and extends to the effect on Quirrell) and refuses to 
answer 3.  Everyone in the story including V assumes that the answer 
to 1 is also the answer to 2.

Sorry for the rush job, please insert IMOs where appropriate

>To me, it makes sense that her sacrifice
> could have prevented Voldemort from harming her infant son -- 
that's the
> protection.  But, Harry didn't just survive.  He dispatched 
Voldemort
> too.  I know Hagrid isn't a very reliable source, but I still think 
back
> to his observation that there was something about Harry that Voldy
> hadn't counted on.  "There's something about Harry" ....
> 
> I think there was something about infant Harry that was special.  I
> think child/adolescent Harry remains special.  We the readers are 
shown
> in GoF that not only is Ron unusually susceptible to the Imperius 
Curse,
> but we are also shown that Harry is unusually adept at shaking it 
off.
> Yes, he has faults, weaknesses and is unmistakeably human (and not
> immortal).  But, he does seem to have some rare or unusual 
talents.  I
> don't necessarily mean he's special as in Superhuman (or un-human) 
in
> the vein of Superman (or the Magid/Mage powers that Lori & Cassie 
have
> bestowed him with in fanfic).  But, I do think Harry has stronger 
than
> average innate magical abilities, and I don't have a problem 
imagining
> that he has a destiny.

IIRC, in a chat someone asked JKR who would win if Harry duelled 
Hermione, and she answered that until GOF, Hermione would, but Harry 
is getting better at DADA: it's the thing he's innately good at (as 
well as Quidditch)

David




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 17:24:31 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:24:31 -0000
Subject: was Wordplay  in HP ... Tripe
In-Reply-To: <9e0qj2+ejpe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e11gf+u0ge@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18925

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > People actually eat stomach lining on the east coast? Do you fry 
it 
> > or what?
> > 
> > Doreen, who is about as familiar with tripe as she is chittlins
> 
> It's a "delicacy", which is just a horrible misnomer for "leftover
> bits that you usually wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole".  :^)
> 
I agree with Craig.  I have found really amusing translations on 
menus in Chinese restaurants for dishes containing those 
"delicacies".  Beware Chinese food with names like "Pan-fried 
things", "Fried Delicacy",  "Congee with pig skin and stuff" all of 
which I have seen.  Or, better yet, be adventurous and try them.  
Once.  (That should be enough).

OK, well, I see the mean evil moderator with the hairnet and the 
bunny slippers coming towards me with a bullhorn...so I will veer 
this back on-topic.

In the famous "Tripe, Sybil?" remark, did you get the impression that 
our friend Minerva was being purposely rude to Trelawney?  They dont 
really serve tripe at Hogwarts, even at Christmas, do they?

--Joywitch




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 17 17:28:44 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:28:44 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Imitations
Message-ID: <34.152292be.2835644c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18926

In a message dated 5/17/2001 12:50:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
qatet at hotmail.com writes:


> The same goes for boggarts... Surely somebody out there has Voldemort 
> as their greatest fear.  What would happen if they were to see a 
> boggart then?  Would the boggart be capable of the same damage that 
> the real Voldemort is?  

The boggart Dementors effect Harry the same way real Dementors do when Lupin 
is trying to teach him the Patronus charm in PoA. And in the Boggart in the 
Wardrobe chapter, Seamus's boggart Banshee can scream like a real Banshee. I 
don't see why it should be different for a boggart Voldemort.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 17:30:06 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:30:06 -0000
Subject: Magic Imitations
In-Reply-To: <9e0uvg+fn00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e11qu+50jm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18927

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., qatet at h... wrote:
> Hello all.  
> 
> During the last few threads - the one about conjuring things and 
the 
> nature of magic, and the one that touched on boggarts - I've come 
to 
> my own few questions about the nature of magic and how it relates 
> to "real" creatures/objects.
> 
> When somebody transfigures something inanimate and makes it a 
living 
> creature (McG's desk to pig always sticks in my mind) have they 
then 
> created a real viable creature?  Does changing it back to a desk 
then 
> constitute a murder of sorts?  
> 
Hi, Kate, and welcome.  Good observation!  If you butchered the pig 
that used to be the desk, would it taste like bacon or sawdust?  
Hmmmm.  I think, as Dumbledore says, that "this is magic at its most 
unpenetrable".

--Joywitch




From zenonah at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 17:37:05 2001
From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:37:05 -0000
Subject: Magic Imitations
In-Reply-To: <9e11qu+50jm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e1281+2fko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18928

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., qatet at h... wrote:

> > 
> > When somebody transfigures something inanimate and makes it a 
> living 
> > creature (McG's desk to pig always sticks in my mind) have they 
> then 
> > created a real viable creature?  Does changing it back to a desk 
> then 
> > constitute a murder of sorts?  
> > 
> Hi, Kate, and welcome.  Good observation!  If you butchered the pig 
> that used to be the desk, would it taste like bacon or sawdust?  
> Hmmmm.  I think, as Dumbledore says, that "this is magic at its 
most 
> unpenetrable".
> 
> --Joywitch

Or could it be like just a while go was discussed why Ron's family 
doesn't have thing by magic; they don't last for long?

Jenny




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 18:09:38 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:09:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dead Harry
In-Reply-To: <9e0qtg+dt59@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010517180938.1200.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18929


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Amber, you is a bad dark wizard.  I can't believe you wrote that 
> subject line.  Notice, however, that I'm leaving it be.  I'm even 
> adding my 2 gory Knuts.

<checks arm for the Dark Mark> Hm, I don't see one yet. Ooo, wait, I've
got a smudge, does that pass for a Dark Mark? Well, maybe not. Looks
like I'm still on the side for the Good, the Light, and the Harry.
<grin> Eh, just chalk up my post to being a horribly contrary person
who feels an evil compulsion to play Devil's Advocate. Or Voldie's
Advocate, however you wish it.

> Here's some free advice to Voldemort:  you can have the best of 
> both worlds by killing someone quickly and quietly and then
> displaying his body in some disgusting, very public way for maximum
> shock.  It's the old put-their-heads-on-a-stake trick, and it's
> worked for Evil Overlords for centuries.

Hmph, I was just speculating on how Voldemort might kill Harry; you're
giving advice to him! Nice bit of advice to him too. Imagine walking
down Diagon Alley and boom! Harry shish-kabob! <waves away the further
evil thoughts pervading her head for fear of being subjected to the leg
locker spell and thrown off the list>

> I can only bring myself to say all this because I'm so sure JKR isn't
> going to kill Harry.  I'm not so sure about Hagrid, though, or 
> ::sob!:: Lupin . . .

As I said before in a post awhile ago, I think it would be
fantastically funny if JKR did kill off Harry. A fictional character
that tons of people love and she has the gall to off him. But that's my
contrariness showing. I think all in all, I'd prefer him to be alive.

~Amber
(Ignore the extreme fluffiness of the post, I'm feeling quite giddy
right now)


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu May 17 18:23:04 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:23:04 -0000
Subject: Magic Imitations
In-Reply-To: <9e0uvg+fn00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e14u8+itff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18930

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., qatet at h... wrote:
> Hello all.  
> 
> During the last few threads - the one about conjuring things and the 
> nature of magic, and the one that touched on boggarts - I've come to 
> my own few questions about the nature of magic and how it relates 
> to "real" creatures/objects.
> 
> When somebody transfigures something inanimate and makes it a living 
> creature (McG's desk to pig always sticks in my mind) have they then 
> created a real viable creature?  Does changing it back to a desk 
then 
> constitute a murder of sorts?  
> 
> The same goes for boggarts... Surely somebody out there has 
Voldemort 
> as their greatest fear.  What would happen if they were to see a 
> boggart then?  Would the boggart be capable of the same damage that 
> the real Voldemort is?  
> 
> and... the standard "hello, I've been lurking but now rear my head" 
> greeting.
> 
> Kate

That's really interesting. I've been going through both scenarios for 
the last fifteen or so minutes.

With the inanimate-animate-inanimate question, I can see how it can be 
considered murder: life is given then taken away. On the other hand, 
if this desk were made out of wood, that wood at one time was living. 
I think this calls for an "ethics of Magic" discussion. Because it 
raises the question too, is it ethical to use animal or living things 
in these magical displays. I think it was in SS that the 
transfiguration final exam included turning a mouse into a teapot or 
something like that.

It's never been addressed in the books as if the boggart has the same 
abilities as the object of fear. In nature, some animals and plants 
use mimickry to protect themselves against predators. These animals 
disguise themselves as poisonous, dangerous or innocuous things in 
order to avoid predators. I think the boggart does the same thing for 
the same reason: wizards and witches can dispel boggarts with laughter 
so they are basically boggart predators. As a matter of survival, the 
boggart will scare away the wizard.  Like the animals in nature, I 
don't think the boggarts manifest the same characteristics as the 
object of fear, other than appearances of course. The boggart's weapon 
is more psychological than anything else, IMO.

:-)Milz




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 18:34:58 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <F6289QtpfTYSl1q4gto00009f8a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010517183458.29808.qmail@web1604.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18931


--- Ebony Elizabeth Thomas <ebonyink at hotmail.com> wrote:

<major snips, forgive me>

> In each book, Harry finds out something new about himself... much of
> which is setting him apart from his peers.  That, coupled with his
> experiences, just may make for increased alienation in future
> books... the quiet denouement of GoF comes to mind.

I don't deny that there's a lot about his past that he doesn't know
about. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he will find out that
he's got a special power. In my opinion, we know next to nothing about
James and Lily. And next to nothing about what *really* happened the
night they died, IMO. Some secret about them could bring about the
increased alienation from the other students as well. 

> Still think the kid's not your average wizard.  Special doesn't
> necessarily mean flying without a broomstick or glow-in-the-dark eyes
> like my favorite X-Man (well, woman <g>) either.
> 
> It means being set apart.

<grin> Again, a special power isn't the only thing that can set people
apart. But I'm feeling like a broken record here. I think the problem I
have with Harry finding out about a special power is that I've read it
done again and again in other books. It seems inevitable; lonely,
repressed kid goes to school and finds out he's the Chosen One, the
only one with the special Mojo to save the Universe from the Dark.
<sigh> I just don't want to see it happen to Harry. I want him to have
normal wizarding powers and see how he defeats Voldemort. He can still
have alienation, can still be angsty, just won't have a key power. 

Do I sound whiny? <double sigh> I guess I have a slight prejudice when
it comes to that sort of story line. It makes me want to stomp my feet
and scream. I remember reading SS and gritting my teeth, waiting for
JKR to reveal that Harry has the most power magic-wise in the school. I
was relieved to see nothing of the sort. Anyways, don't worry about me,
just pat me on the head and send me on my way. 

~Amber


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May 17 18:38:52 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:38:52 -0000
Subject: Question:  Hermione's family (and Dead Harry).
Message-ID: <9e15rs+6o5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18932

This is purely conjecture on my part:  Is Hermione an only child?   I 
don't recall any other family members besides her dentist parents 
being mentioned.  Therefore it is possible that she has either non 
magic siblings or that there is a younger brother or sister who may 
(if magic, afterall, both Creevey brothers were) be getting their 
invitation to Hogwarts anytime soon?   Just wondering...

BTW:   Amber, I do not think it would be "fantastically funny" if 
Harry were to die.  I, personally, would be devasted.  I would much 
rather it were Ron (although I think I would be almost equally upset 
if Hermione were to die).  It's one of those things I prefer not to 
think about - like JKR not finishing the series, or, even more 
tantalisingly horrible, doing what she once threatened to do, in 
finishing the series and not publishing them...

However, I do think that JKR is going to have to be a little more 
original in the ways she devises for Harry to escape death at the 
hands of Voldemort in future.  Although I found the scenes at the end 
of GoF very workable - unlike others on this list I do think that it 
is entirely believable that Harry had the strength of mind to make 
Voldemort's wand go into Priori Incantatem, I agree that Voldemort's 
ego and showmanship has been getting the better of him, and that 
direct confrontations would be better avoided in future if Voldemort 
learns from this and if Harry is to survive.  I can't think of 
another way of the series ending though...

Catherine




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 17 18:56:32 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question:  Hermione's family (and Dead Harry).
In-Reply-To: <9e15rs+6o5p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010517185632.13729.qmail@web1609.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18933


--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> BTW:   Amber, I do not think it would be "fantastically funny" if 
> Harry were to die.  I, personally, would be devasted.  I would much 
> rather it were Ron (although I think I would be almost equally upset 
> if Hermione were to die).  It's one of those things I prefer not to 
> think about - like JKR not finishing the series, or, even more 
> tantalisingly horrible, doing what she once threatened to do, in 
> finishing the series and not publishing them...

<bows in apology> I think perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I
meant more that I would see the humor in the irony. Everyone loves this
fictional boy, everybody thinks he's not going to die, but he ends up
dead. I guess I just have a weird sense of humor. But, rest assured, I
would be sad too. Maybe not devastated but sad. 

Upon reflection, perhaps my previous post not tactful. Apologies to
anyone who felt miffed or upset at me.

~Amber


=====
"Just between you and me
the world is cracking
don't look too closely
or you may see past the porcelain bowl..."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 19:30:18 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:30:18 -0000
Subject: Dead Harry
In-Reply-To: <20010517180938.1200.qmail@web1602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e18sa+utbk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18934

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> As I said before in a post awhile ago, I think it would be
> fantastically funny if JKR did kill off Harry. A fictional character
> that tons of people love and she has the gall to off him. But 
that's my
> contrariness showing. I think all in all, I'd prefer him to be 
alive.
> 

I know what you mean.  In a way it would be just so incredibly funny 
if JKR let evil truimph over good.  End of book 7:  Harry is dead, 
Dumbledore is dead, Voldemort has triumphed and is running the world, 
Bush is president (oh, wait, thats a different universe), everyone 
lives unhappily ever after.  Could you imagine how shocked everyone 
would be?  It would be on the front page of every newspaper in the 
world!  Of course, JKR would have to live the rest of her live in 
seclusion, with armed guards.

--Joywitch, who is running from the room to avoid the owl bearing a 
Howler from the Moderators, who did not appreciate that political 
comment one little bit.




From lizscford at aol.com  Thu May 17 19:47:02 2001
From: lizscford at aol.com (lizscford at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:47:02 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British words
Message-ID: <6f.156dca42.283584b6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18935

hmmm...
I always call a teacher Ms. or Sir until I find out their name, then it would 
be, for example, Miss Ashworth and Mrs Smee and Mr Morgan, but that's just at 
my school.

Some of my Friends go to a comprehensive and have to call ALL their teachers 
Sir and Madam regardless of whether they know their names or not...

The only problem with the Miss Mrs system is if you get it wrong they 
completely wig at you...not fun! So generally, unless you're 100% sure of 
which it is, it's generally (eg) Ms. Beale...ie, you blur the words so you 
can't really tell what it is you're saying!

just my experience!
DARLA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 17 19:51:06 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:51:06 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #2 Results
Message-ID: <9e1a3a+hm69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18936

Well, despite my constant and undoubtedly annoying cajoling, I only 
managed to persuade a handful of people to try their hand at poetry.  
However, what we lack in quantity we make up for in quality.

The entries prove that you are all much, much better poets than I am 
(not surprisingly).  I have reproduced the poems below, and also in 
the files section.  

It is very fortunate that the Moderators insisted that this be a non-
competitive contest, as there is no way I could have picked a 
winner.  I really loved all of these poems.  Much thanks to our poets 
Jamieson, Amy Z., Amber, Parker, Trina, Neil and Mecki.

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
I love the way Jamieson captures Hermiones essence:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

Her-My-Own-Ee
by Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve

Sands of time hang around her neck,
a little desert of her own,
isolating her from others,
intelligence goes only so far.
She feels the glares of others
burning into the back of her head,
a sore spot of heat
that won't go away,
like a spot of blood,
or a past.
She talks to herself a great deal,
voices of self-doubt creep up
to catch her off guard.
Books become a shield,
the shield becomes a moat,
once again isolating her
from the reality of Magic;
helping her forget,
for a while,
that it really does
exist.

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
These amusing little poems by Amy are in a form called a *clerihew*:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

Untitled
by Amy Z.

Severus Snape
May enjoy swooping about in a long black cape
But that
Doesn't prove he's a bat.

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

Untitled
by Amy Z.

Harry Potter
Frequently doesn't do what he oughter
Leading some cultural conservatives
To have reservatives.

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
 
Ode on The Kiss
by Amy Z.

Hermione Granger
May not be aware of the danger
But her loose lips
Can sink ships.

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
A fitting tribute from Parker:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

At the Time of the Full Moon
(An Ode to the Marauders)
by Parker Brown Nesbit  2001

When all is still and quiet
And the moon is full,
We go out and play.

No one knows who we are
No one knows what we do,
We'll keep it that way.

Three of us are Animagi
One a werewolf,
We'll keep him in check.

Rumours are spreading wide
Werewolves are in the Forest,
and the shack is haunted.

We've written a guide 
For making much mischief,
and escaping the castle. 

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
Wow!  Who would have thought we would get a poem about Wendelin the 
Weird.  With rhyme and meter and everything!  Good going, Trina!:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

Wendelin the Weird
by Trina

Wendelin the Weird 
Never, ever feared
The stupid Muggle gits 
Who wished to fry her into bits.

Her wand hidden up a sleeve, 
The simple Muggles she deceived.
Using disguises wild and plenty
Pretending to be in agony,
(On forty-seven new occasions) 
Just for the tickling sensation.

And when her fun was done for the day
She'd just Apparate away.

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
Amber included some notes about who, exactly, each of her poems are 
about, but I will let all you smartypants figure that out for 
yourselves:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

"Three Witches Flying"
by Amber

>From here atop my sturdy broom
I watch the Chasers fly below
Watch them as they swirl and zoom
Watch them as they pass and throw.

For while I've just the Snitch to catch
They must work to try and score
And while I've credit for winning the match
They deserve it so much more.

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

"Symbols"
by Amber

They don't see me,
only my symbols.

Largest, the scar.
Lightning bolt striking,
melted into place.
My hissing
snake-speech, parseltongue
is all they hear.
Thinking
'Boy who lived, boy who fought,
boy who might die'.

They don't see me,
only my symbols.

Brightest, the hair.
Screaming fire flaming,
painting my face blank
for its all others see.
My sarcasm
biting, rolling remarks
is all they hear.
Thinking
'You're your brother, sister, father, mother
Nobody new'.

They don't see me,
only my symbols.

Sturdiest, the books.
Hard-backed, covering,
body propped up by pages.
My answers
record-broken, ever continuing,
is all they hear.
Thinking
'Know it all, know it all,
Knows so little'.

They don't see a Hero that fears.
They don't see a Fire that yearns.
They don't see a Book that cries.

They don't see us,
only our symbols.

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
I had to badger Neil to send me a poem, and promise to buy him a new 
hairnet, but it was worth it.  Love that title!:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

**Beyond The Fringe**
by Neil Ward

In the covered lamplight, lurking,
Curtains drawn and crystals humming
Madam Soothsayer is working.
She cries: "Doom to one is coming!"

Soft and misty in her diction,
She sees dead and buried rabbits,
As the mistress of prediction,
She portends all evil habits.

When it comes to Christmas dining,
She is really just the type.
To refuse the stomach lining,
But indulge the ways of tripe.

As she joins the twelve at table,
"We're thirteen!" she cries, with fervour.
Her composure shifts, unstable.
 "Just sit down!" retorts Minerva.

With her inner eye switched on,
She spots Harry (whom she teaches).
Rhyme and reasoning are gone,
"You will die the death!" she screeches.

>From the star charts to the tealeaves,
Some declare she's false and corny,
But those lofty tales she weaves:
We just love her - she's Trelawney!

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
The following poems did not follow the rules of the contest, as they 
are about HP in general rather than specific characters, but I like 
them so I am including them anyway.  I can relate to Mecki's desire, 
and I love the fact that the last word of Jamieson's poem is, well, 
you'll see:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

Untitled
by Mecki:

I love to read the Potter-books to flee,
or so it seems

from life as mother and housewife
into fantasy and dreams.

but afterwards a wish,
desire's in my head

stays and nags inside it,
from morning until bed.

I do not think it's tragic
I can't do any magic

but what I really want,
when dusting all my shelves

is nothing more or less
than half a dozen elves

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

Untitled
by Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve

It starts
as it always does
with words.
Syllables streched and tugged,
taffy of speech,
sewn together to form
a word, a phrase,
a language of Muses,
a cornocopia of sounds;
perhpas those sounds are
"Alahoma" or "Crucify".
And maybe these words yearn
to defile a virgin white page,
those wordsleading to other words and sounds,
"Magic" for example,
or "Wizard".
For some, sounds and words
take on a different meaning;
something that reaches
into the furthermost part
of our soul,
to take on a shape of being
or a being made
of Dream-World nightmares.
Words like
 "Mother" or "Darkness" or "hate"
or "Scar".









From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu May 17 20:01:25 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:01:25 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: OT topics/New Welcome Message (for general information)
Message-ID: <002001c0df0c$27c38320$ad3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 18937

Hi everyone,

Just a quick reminder that OT topics (or threads, once they become OT)
should be posted to our OT Chatter list
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter).  This would apply, for
example, to the most recent posts on private vs state schools, the
international reputation of tripe, Ms, Mrs or Miss etc. (British words), all
of which are now OT.

Also, for general reference, we have revised version the Welcome Message in
the Files section, and that includes a link to pretty much everything you
might need to know
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPFGUWelcome.htm).  Our
newest members will have been sent a copy of this, but the rest of you won't
have seen it.  Among other things, it includes links to the VFAQ, shorthand
terms and the Portkey to our sister groups.

Magically,

Neil
Moderator Team
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 17 20:09:59 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:09:59 -0700
Subject: Hagrid as a pawn of V (was: Dead Harry)
In-Reply-To: <20010517151443.28623.qmail@web1603.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <F192u1bCdUg07MJJQ8700000b18@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010517130223.02f41100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18938

At 08:14 AM 5/17/01 -0700, Amber wrote:
>Er, I know! Have dragons attack Hogwarts and flame it! Or Hagrid will
>turn to the dark side, and lead the giants to Hogwarts to smash it!

I see a grim plausibility in V employing the Imperius curse against
Hagrid: Some DE controls H who controls various horrible monsters... :O
For all his size, I'm afraid he -- being as he was expelled in his 3rd
year -- wouldn't be very good at resisting the curse, and V has
already discovered H's usefulness as a "fall guy".  ("It was his
word against mine, Harry!")



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 17 20:18:27 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:18:27 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldie hesitates (was: average Harry)
In-Reply-To: <9e0kot+na7l@eGroups.com>
References: <27.1588932e.283499f2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010517131225.0302cdc0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18939

At 01:47 PM 5/17/01 +0000, Jenny T. Malmiola wrote:
>One more thought; what if Lily was very powerful witch and Voldie
>wanted her to became his spouse, a queen of all the dark witches and
>wizards? (Yes, I read a lot of fairytales =) )

It brings the 1940 _Thief of Bagdad_ to my mind -- In which
the dark wizard Jaffar's fatal "error" is that tiny spark of decency in
him that wants the Princess' love in a real way and won't let
himself use the "Imperius Curse" (or whatever equivalent he starts
to invoke) to force her into the sack with him.



                         -- Dave




From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Thu May 17 20:29:56 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:29:56 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Imitations
Message-ID: <20010517201724.30473124EA@postfix1.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18940

This is not so, in my oppinion. The powers you are talking about are "natural" 
powers to the creatures, while V uses a wand to draw on a hidden source, 
internal/external as it might be, point is that it is not a power he was 
"born" with.

Darreder

>The boggart Dementors effect Harry the same way real Dementors do when Lupin
>is trying to teach him the Patronus charm in PoA. And in the Boggart in the
>Wardrobe chapter, Seamus's boggart Banshee can scream like a real Banshee. I
>don't see why it should be different for a boggart Voldemort.
>
>Toby
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, 
to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read 
and those they don't.
>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! 
For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Thu May 17 20:35:53 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:35:53 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dementors - Hermione
Message-ID: <20010517192456.05D7A64B3@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18941

The Patronus appears to me to work against the dementors, like D's work 
against humans.

Dementors are filling a ?human with felelings of sorrow, hatred, hopelessness, 
etc. and a Patronus is filling the dementor
with feelings of happiness, joy, hope, etc.

Thus rendering it dead if keeping it up to long. Therefor the dementor flees, 
rather than stay and be killed.

Darreder



>The fuzzy explanation, IMO, is the one about the Patronus.  Why does
>it scare away Dementors?  I'm going to quibble with Lupin's
>explanation (or consider it incomplete) and say that they flee from
>Patroni because despite the latter being made out of happiness, it is
>inaccessible to Dementors because, not being part of a human psyche,
>it's invulnerable.  Something like that.
>
>A "me too" to those who have said that among Hermione's motivations
>for taking so many classes is a tremendous love of learning.  A
>certain overachiever closely related to me :ahem: has been known to
>take on too many classes, projects, senior theses, etc. just because
>they were all so interesting and she couldn't say no to any of them.
>
>Amy Z
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
> Those who have been stung by a Billywig suffer
> giddiness followed by levitation.  Generations of
> young Australian witches and wizards have attempted
> to catch Billywigs and provoke them into stinging
> in order to enjoy these side effects . . .
>           -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, 
to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read 
and those they don't.
>
>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! 
For more details, contact the Moderator Team at 
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
>(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May 17 21:14:49 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:14:49 -0000
Subject: Hagrid as a pawn of V (was: Dead Harry)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010517130223.02f41100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9e1f09+40ic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18942

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 08:14 AM 5/17/01 -0700, Amber wrote:
> >Er, I know! Have dragons attack Hogwarts and flame it! Or Hagrid 
will
> >turn to the dark side, and lead the giants to Hogwarts to smash it!
> 
> I see a grim plausibility in V employing the Imperius curse against
> Hagrid: Some DE controls H who controls various horrible 
monsters... :O
> For all his size, I'm afraid he -- being as he was expelled in his 
3rd
> year -- wouldn't be very good at resisting the curse, and V has
> already discovered H's usefulness as a "fall guy".  ("It was his
> word against mine, Harry!")
> 
> 
> 
>                          -- Dave

Apart from the fact I hate this idea, because IMHO, Hagrid epitomises 
a lot of everything Dumbledore is striving for.  He has his 
background and history etc to be held against him, and of course many 
are prejudiced against him now they know he is half-giant, but he 
stands for so much which is good - he is one of the kindest, 
gentlest, warm-hearted, loyal and faithful people in the books.  I 
think Dumbledore recognised this from the start.  Voldemort, as Tom 
Riddle, is no fool - he was wise to the fact that Dumbledore was 
suspicious of him.  Remember also, that although Hagrid was used as 
fall guy with the previous headmaster etc. - Dumbledore obviously had 
enough faith, or belief in Hagrid's innocence/ lack of evil 
intention, to ensure he could stay on at Hogwarts in a different 
capacity.  

As you can see, I am a big fan of Hagrid, stoat sandwiches and all.  
I would hope that he wouldn't be put under the imperious curse.  For 
someone who values loyalty as much as him, throwing it off would 
surely help him on the way to madness, a la Crouch snr.  What is more 
likely, is that he yet again lets something important slip when he is 
under the influence of butterbeer, or scotch, or whatever it is he 
drinks.  I know that this has already been done, with the 
Fluffy/Norbert saga, but it just seems more realistic - afterall, 
people do make the same mistakes time and time again.  I do believe, 
though, that if Hagrid unwittingly betrayed either Harry or 
Dumbledore, he would find it extremely difficult to live with himself 
and come to terms with it, if ever.

Catherine




From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May 17 22:04:16 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:04:16 -0000
Subject: Average Harry -- Harry & Hermione Potential Conflict
In-Reply-To: <3B03FFF5.46094BFA@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9e1ht0+ps90@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18943

Hello!
> 
> I think there was something about infant Harry that was special.  I
> think child/adolescent Harry remains special.  
But, I do think Harry has stronger than average innate magical 
abilities, and I don't have a problem imagining that he has a destiny.

I agree with you on that one, even if his specialness is due, in part, 
to his inner strength and ability to handle himself so well in 
difficult situations.  Harry already has abilities that are magical 
that set him apart (his "seeing" in his dreams, for one and 
Parseltongue, for another), and I get the feeling his parents were 
both powerful and intelligent witches/wizards.  So why wouldn't that 
be passed on to Harry?  His "stronger than usual innate magical 
abilities" cannot be from nowhere.  

His abilities, I believe, were also "given" to him for a reason (I 
kind of believe in that), because he can handle it.  Would Ron deal as 
well with being a Parselmouth?  I doubt it.  
> 
> > If Harry is triumphant it will be not because he was destined to 
be so ("the stars have been read wrongly before now," after all) but
> > because of what he chose to make of his considerable talents.
> > I don't think he is destined to be triumphant.  I think he could 
be destined to be a threat, and it will be his choices (combined with 
using his strengths and overcoming his weaknesses) that will determine 
the final outcome.  I don't discount the argument that a strong theme 
withinthe books has to do with the choices and the ability of a person 
to shape his/her own moral development & character through good or bad
> choices.  But, as Ebony noted, one can have a destiny & still have
> choices.>

That is very true.  One can have incredible talent and not do anything 
with it.  Perhaps a young girl discovers she has a beautiful singing 
voice but never sings for an audience.  Harry may be a super Quidditch 
player, but I doubt he'll pursue it as a career.

I'm not sure what Harry's destiny is, but JKR has said, IIRC that the 
characters will from now on have to distinguish between what is easy 
and what is right, and that certainly comes down to the choices they 
make.  Will Harry want to do what is easy?  Sure.  But will he?  I 
don't think he has yet - not allowing Wormtail to be killed is a good 
example.

I don't know if this is destiny or not, but we certainly know that 
Harry must face an ultimate showdown with Voldemort.  I believe that 
Harry will be the cause of Voldie's downfall for good, but I don't 
know if Harry will pay for it by losing his own life.  Now that's 
making a choice bewteen easy and right!

--jenny from ravenclaw********************




From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May 17 22:15:34 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:15:34 -0000
Subject: Hagrid as a pawn of V (was: Dead Harry)
In-Reply-To: <9e1f09+40ic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e1ii6+t6h5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18944


> 
> Apart from the fact I hate this idea, because IMHO, Hagrid 
epitomises 
> a lot of everything Dumbledore is striving for.  He has his 
> background and history etc to be held against him, and of course 
many 
> are prejudiced against him now they know he is half-giant, but he 
> stands for so much which is good - he is one of the kindest, 
> gentlest, warm-hearted, loyal and faithful people in the books.  I 
> think Dumbledore recognised this from the start.  Voldemort, as Tom 
> Riddle, is no fool - he was wise to the fact that Dumbledore was 
> suspicious of him.  Remember also, that although Hagrid was used as 
> fall guy with the previous headmaster etc. - Dumbledore obviously 
had 
> enough faith, or belief in Hagrid's innocence/ lack of evil 
> intention, to ensure he could stay on at Hogwarts in a different 
> capacity.  
> 
> As you can see, I am a big fan of Hagrid, stoat sandwiches and all.  
> I would hope that he wouldn't be put under the imperious curse.  For 
> someone who values loyalty as much as him, throwing it off would 
> surely help him on the way to madness, a la Crouch snr.  What is 
more 
> likely, is that he yet again lets something important slip when he 
is 
> under the influence of butterbeer, or scotch, or whatever it is he 
> drinks.  I know that this has already been done, with the 
> Fluffy/Norbert saga, but it just seems more realistic - afterall, 
> people do make the same mistakes time and time again.  I do believe, 
> though, that if Hagrid unwittingly betrayed either Harry or 
> Dumbledore, he would find it extremely difficult to live with 
himself 
> and come to terms with it, if ever.
> 
> Catherine

Hi - 

I may make you furious when I say this, but Hagrid's unwavering 
loyalty is exactly what makes me suspicious - not necessarily of 
Hagrid, but of JKR's intentions with him.  You see, I wonder that, 
when he finds the giants and his mother, he may begin to question the 
life he lived at Hogwarts.  Will he want to try out something new (and 
bad)?  Will his new contacts with the giants bring out a side to him 
that he has trouble supressing?  We already know he has a terrible 
temper ("Shut up Dursley, yeh great prune" - SS, and when he slammed 
Karkaroff into the tree in GoF) - will he ever decide to just not 
control it?  Or will someone convince him that Dumbledore is not 
really looking out for Hagrid?  He's not exactly a rocket scientist of 
wizards, after all.  I mean, he knows his stuff, but he sure makes 
some bad decisions (baby dragons and Blast-Ended Skrewts as a class 
experiement, for examples).

Hagrid is someone JKR would use to pull the rug out from under us.

--jenny from ravenclaw***************************




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 17 22:26:49 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:26:49 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid as a pawn of V (was: Dead Harry)
In-Reply-To: <9e1f09+40ic@eGroups.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010517130223.02f41100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010517151945.03043b50@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18945

At 09:14 PM 5/17/01 +0000, catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
>As you can see, I am a big fan of Hagrid, stoat sandwiches and all.

So am I -- He's definitely my favorite, and the more I think about
it, the more I think I'm wrong.  I guess I keep trying to think of ways
the series could "get darker", because after the Graveyard, I'm
getting apprehensive about future "darkness"...



                         -- Dave




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 17 22:34:05 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:34:05 -0000
Subject: Hagrid a pawn and other ways to darken the plot
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010517151945.03043b50@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9e1jkt+m38r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18946

Dave wrote:

I guess I keep trying to think of ways
> the series could "get darker", because after the Graveyard, I'm
> getting apprehensive about future "darkness"...
> 

I'm afraid the major way the books can get darker is that someone we 
love more than Cedric will die.  Maybe quite a few someones.

Also, even if no one really beloved like Ron turns to the Dark Side, 
any such betrayals would be really hard to read.  Imagine Seamus gone 
bad.  ::shudder::  So she could go that route too.

Re: Hagrid, Catherine wrote about his temper.  It's true, he does 
have a quick temper, but it seems to erupt only when someone insults 
Dumbledore.  (If he'd been in on the post-Goblet conversation and 
heard the ways Madame Maxime maligned AD--and Harry at the same time--
that relationship would've been over before it had started.)  He 
could do something stupid and cause a lot of trouble if he were led 
to believe he was defending Dumbledore.  I really can't see him 
choosing the giants over Hogwarts.

Amy Z
getting the shivers already, with 12 (?) months to go




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Fri May 18 00:20:23 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:20:23 -0000
Subject: Average Harry
In-Reply-To: <9e1ht0+ps90@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e1ps7+l9c0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18947

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Hello!
> > 
> > I think there was something about infant Harry that was special.  I
> > think child/adolescent Harry remains special.  
> But, I do think Harry has stronger than average innate magical 
> abilities, and I don't have a problem imagining that he has a destiny.
> 
> I agree with you on that one, even if his specialness is due, in part, 
> to his inner strength and ability to handle himself so well in 
> difficult situations.  Harry already has abilities that are magical 
> that set him apart (his "seeing" in his dreams, for one and 
> Parseltongue, for another), and I get the feeling his parents were 
> both powerful and intelligent witches/wizards.  So why wouldn't that 
> be passed on to Harry?  His "stronger than usual innate magical 
> abilities" cannot be from nowhere.  
> 
> His abilities, I believe, were also "given" to him for a reason (I 
> kind of believe in that), because he can handle it.  Would Ron deal as 
> well with being a Parselmouth?  I doubt it.

New member here: I haven't read GOF yet, but isn't it the case, as Dumbledore tells Harry, that he acquired Parseltongue, and some other powers, from Voldemort, when Voldemort killed James and Lily Potter, trying to get at Harry?  That makes Harry pretty puissant, right off.  Was Voldemort captain of Quidditch for Slytherin, by any chance?

Life with the Dursleys probably should have turned him into a bully or a coward, but of course that isn't the story JKR wanted to write.  The old-style fairy-stories, where terrible revenge is wreaked on wicked stepmother, ugly sisters, etc., were satisfying in their way but have rather gone out of fashion - so Harry was probably protected by the magical effect of his mother's love from the Dursleys, somehow, as well as from Voldemort.

>From another point of view, perhaps Harry's position as the hero of these stories is due to what he's going to do that we don't know about yet - like the film _Young Winston_, if you follow.  But supposedly, everyone in Gryffindor House is heroic - even Neville Longbottom - at least according to the Sorting Hat.  I'd have put him in Hufflepuff, and Hermione in Ravenclaw.  Which is why they gave the job of Sorting to the Hat and not to me, I suppose.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Fri May 18 00:39:29 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:39:29 -0000
Subject: Magic Imitations
In-Reply-To: <20010517201724.30473124EA@postfix1.ofir.com>
Message-ID: <9e1r01+tnkb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18948

I'd guess that the boggart derives its power, as well as its appearance, from its victim.  Effectively, you're involuntarily working a transformation spell to change it into what you fear most.  So it's limited by your own power - which, however, makes it powerful enough to defeat you, since it's almost certainly attacking where you're weak.  But I propose that Harry's boggart Voldemort wouldn't be a match in a duel for any adult wizard (although in practice it would become the adult wizard's Voldemort, which is more serious), and Neville's boggart Snape couldn't teach a class - all it can do is make Neville miserable.  The boggart Snape is only a thirteen-year-old boy's caricature of a teacher.

The boggart is a very powerful magical self-transformer, though, and its body parts (if any are left when it's not being something else) are probably potent - but it isn't listed in my copy of _Fantastic Beasts_, unless the Muggle edition has a Memory Charm halfway down page five.  Perhaps it does, for that reason...

Actually, I think JKR's "implementation" of the boggart is logically defective, and paradoxical.  But let's not get started - no, on secont thoughts, let's do - on how many laws of physics it breaks, of conservation and otherwise, starting, snug in its box or wardrobe, with the one about Schroedinger's cat, and ending with the actual size of the Moon, according to Sir Patrick Moore ( www.bbc.co.uk/skyatnight/ ), relative to a Hogwarts classroom.  The book might have ended right there...

Robert Carnegie

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tim Kronsell <timkronsell2 at o...> wrote:
> This is not so, in my oppinion. The powers you are talking about are "natural" 
> powers to the creatures, while V uses a wand to draw on a hidden source, 
> internal/external as it might be, point is that it is not a power he was 
> "born" with.
> 
> Darreder
> 
> >The boggart Dementors effect Harry the same way real Dementors do when Lupin
> >is trying to teach him the Patronus charm in PoA. And in the Boggart in the
> >Wardrobe chapter, Seamus's boggart Banshee can scream like a real Banshee. I
> >don't see why it should be different for a boggart Voldemort.
> >
> >Toby





From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Fri May 18 01:02:52 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:02:52 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Imitations
Message-ID: <db.149257f1.2835cebc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18949

In a message dated 5/17/2001 4:53:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
timkronsell2 at ofir.dk writes:


> This is not so, in my oppinion. The powers you are talking about are 
> "natural" 
> powers to the creatures, while V uses a wand to draw on a hidden source, 
> internal/external as it might be, point is that it is not a power he was 
> "born" with.
> 
> Darreder
> 
> >The boggart Dementors effect Harry the same way real Dementors do when 
> Lupin
> >is trying to teach him the Patronus charm in PoA. And in the Boggart in the
> >Wardrobe chapter, Seamus's boggart Banshee can scream like a real Banshee. 
> I
> >don't see why it should be different for a boggart Voldemort.
> >
> >Toby
> 

That's a good point. I didn't think about that before.  :-) That's what I get 
for trying to write an intelligent response on my lunch break.  :-)

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Fri May 18 01:12:10 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:12:10 EDT
Subject: Harry as a martyr? [was Re: Average Harry] 
Message-ID: <16.d00b09b.2835d0ea@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18950

In a message dated 5/17/2001 6:10:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
meboriqua at aol.com writes:


> I don't know if this is destiny or not, but we certainly know that 
> Harry must face an ultimate showdown with Voldemort.  I believe that 
> Harry will be the cause of Voldie's downfall for good, but I don't 
> know if Harry will pay for it by losing his own life.  Now that's 
> making a choice bewteen easy and right!
> 

Interesting. Do you think it may come down to Harry having to make this kind 
of choice? To become a kind of martyr? It's an interesting possibility, but 
I'm not sure what kind of situation would facilitate that out come. Perhaps 
they are both hanging off a cliff, no wands, and the only way Voldy is going 
to fall is for Harry to fall as well. ::::shudders::::: I don't know if I 
like that so well.....

Toby



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 18 01:58:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 01:58:01 -0000
Subject: Magic Imitations
In-Reply-To: <9e1r01+tnkb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e1vj9+a3rh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18951

Robert wrote:

> I'd guess that the boggart derives its power, as well as its 
>appearance, from its victim.  Effectively, you're involuntarily 
>working a transformation spell to change it into what you fear 
>most.  So it's limited by your own power - which, however, makes it 
>powerful enough to defeat you, since it's almost certainly attacking 
>where you're weak.  But I propose that Harry's boggart Voldemort 
>wouldn't be a match in a duel for any adult wizard (although in 
>practice it would become the adult wizard's Voldemort, which is more 
serious), and Neville's boggart Snape couldn't teach a class - all it 
can do is make Neville miserable.  The boggart Snape is only a 
thirteen-year-old boy's caricature of a teacher.

<snip>

> Actually, I think JKR's "implementation" of the boggart is 
>logically defective, and paradoxical.  But let's not get started - 
>no, on secont thoughts, let's do - on how many laws of physics it 
>breaks, of conservation and otherwise, starting, snug in its box or 
>wardrobe, with the one about Schroedinger's cat, and ending with the 
actual size of the Moon, according to Sir Patrick Moore ( 
www.bbc.co.uk/skyatnight/ ), relative to a Hogwarts classroom.  The 
book might have ended right there...

Welcome, Robert!  Warning:  Goblet of Fire spoilers abound on this 
list.  Read fast!

I like your thoughts on the boggart's conforming to the fears of 
whoever it's facing.  It makes total sense to me that Boggart Snape 
won't know beans about Potions, although he'll know lots about Making 
Neville Miserable.

It seems that magic trumps physics.  Otherwise all sorts of things, 
from flying to time travel to Apparating, would be impossible.  I 
thought of this when Trelawney had a model of the galaxy (that's in 
GF, but don't worry, I haven't spoiled anything)--you couldn't 
possibly fit a model of the galaxy inside a classroom without the 
stars being of subatomic size.  But through the magic of magic, it 
works.

Apparating is like transporting in Star Trek, more or less, right?  
In ST lingo they have what they call a Heisenberg Compensator to 
solve the problem of random motion, which might otherwise make it 
just a tad difficult to move all one's molecules across the room (or 
from ship to shore) and keep them in the right order.  Someone once 
asked a ST writer, "How does the Heisenberg Compensator work?" and he 
said, "Very nicely, thank you!"  Anyway, this might be a problem for 
ST, which wants its inventions to at least sound physically 
plausible, but HP is different.  All JKR has to say is, "It's magic!"

Amy Z




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri May 18 02:50:26 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:50:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry as a martyr? [was Re: Average Harry] 
In-Reply-To: <16.d00b09b.2835d0ea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010517194455.00c55c90@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18952

At 09:12 PM 5/17/01 -0400, dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com wrote:
>Perhaps they are both hanging off a cliff, no wands, and the only way 
>Voldy is going
>to fall is for Harry to fall as well. ::::shudders::::: I don't know if I
>like that so well.....

Nah... Too Sherlock Holmes.  :)



                         -- Dave




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri May 18 03:15:25 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 03:15:25 -0000
Subject: Lupin Loses Control
In-Reply-To: <9drapa+gm13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e244d+ler2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18953

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> 
> > > Chapter 7, "The Boggart in the Wardrobe"
> >  
> > 
> .  And I would like to see Remus lose control in some way - 
> > I'm sure there is a volcano of emotion under that calm exterior.  

Now that I think of it, we already have an instance of Lupin 
completely losing control - but in a wonderful, positive way:

"Professor," Harry interrupted loudly, "what's going on --?"

But he never finished the question, because what he saw made his 
voice die in his throat. Lupin was lowering his wand, gazing fixed at 
Black. The Professor walked to Black's side, seized his hand, pulled 
him to his feet so that Crookshanks fell to the floor, and embraced 
Black like a brother. (PoA, Chapter 17)

Had Lupin been completely in control of himself here, he would have 
made sure that Harry, Ron & Hermione completely understood what the 
situation was regarding Sirius and Peter before he dared to embrace 
Black.  But he was so overwhelmed with emotion - his old friend who 
had seemingly turned traitor turns out to have been innocent and up-
right after all - that Lupin had to step forward to embrace him (and 
remember how reticent he had been about making physical contact with 
Harry earlier). The Trio (as well as the first-time reader) are 
prfoundly shocked, and it is only with considerable effort that Lupin 
is able to convince them of Black's innocence.

Also, someone had raised a question about Lupin becoming a Death-
Eater. Not only would this be completely out of character for Lupin, 
but just how willing would the Death-Eaters be to admitting a 
werewolf to their ranks? They don't seem bound by EOE guidelines.....

  - CMC







From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Fri May 18 04:06:52 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 04:06:52 -0000
Subject: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <F109Ff82rPe4n4WZiW700009ef5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9e274s+8p7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18954

Ebony wrote:
"Hi, list--I'm extremely tired, but must have a go at this..."

--I share this same sentiment! I'm also doing something I should 
never do, which is respond to a VERY active thread before catching up 
on messages, but I'm going to, so there.

I'm so apt to agree with Amy's view, but I also see the merit of 
Ebony's. However I think the two can work together quite nicely. I 
think Harry is ordinary, but he is also extraordinary in that he is 
able to do such great things without having to do them. His special 
ability and strength is determined by the choices that change him 
from being just another wizard. Does that make sense? 

I don't believe Harry is innately special and therefore he must 
defeat Voldemort, though I do agree that there is *something* about 
Harry that made V. want to kill him in the first place, but I don't 
believe in fate. No change that, I don't believe in unalterable fate. 
I think our lives depend on the choices we make, not the stars, or 
well...anything. But I'm also not saying that the stars and such 
can't be accurate, but if they are it's because we believe in them. 
In this case belief embodies being.

It's also important to metion that in the HPverse the above can be 
false, and prophecies CAN be real, but that doesn't mean I believe 
it. So I guess both of you are right IMO. Harry is special because 
his choices make him special, but he makes those choices because he 
is special. Uh, now I'm confusing myself!

Ebony wrote:
"So what you're saying is that the perception that There's Something 
Special About Harry will protect him?  I don't think all the DE-types 
are stupid and bumbling... he had better have more than just the 
perception.  They'd send their expendables just to try, I think."

--No, just Voldemort seems stupid and bumbling. I don't think any of 
the DE's are afraid of Harry. At most he has/will put doubt in their 
minds about V. For V. that is just as dangerous as Harry himself 
being a threat, because what good his he without followers?

Amy wrote:
"For my part, I don't for a moment think that Harry can't be hurt by
Voldemort.  <snip>:

Ebony wrote:
"I totally agree with this, and even tried to start a thread on it 
some time back (January?)... "how could Voldemort go about killing 
Harry?"  There were no takers.  I suppose no one wanted to talk about 
Harry head."

--He would uh, Avada Kedavra Harry. But I see what you're saying. The 
question to me is not "how" would V. kill Harry, but will V ever 
realise that it would be better just to kill him and not try to beat 
him first. The obvious answer is that it's none to smart to kill your 
protagonist halfway through the series bearing his name, but the 
underlying answer is, perhaps, that Voldemort doesn't have quite that 
much forsight, or that JKR is saying that V. arrogance, even more 
than Harry, will be his downfall.

Ebony wrote:
"I don't believe in luck, but for the purpose of the discussion, 
let's just say that luck, the Sacrifice, and strength of character 
all played a role in  Harry's protection in the past and continuing 
protection.  This threefold  combination still makes him special... 
how many other kids fall into this category?"

--Exactly. Harry's not special because of any one thing in 
particular. 

Ebony wrote:
"Canon seems to imply otherwise.  If this is the case, why can't 
Hermione  conjure a Patronus?  Why can't the entire fourth year DADA 
class resist  Imperius?"

--I don't think that who can cast Patroni is a very good example. I 
don't see any reason to think Hermione *couldn't* cast a Patronus if 
she had put the same work into it as Harry. The Imperious curse is a 
better example. It seems to have to do with will, and Harry's is 
extremely strong. That in itself is something that makes him special.

Ebony (or was it Amy?) wrote:
"The question is in what way he is unique.  To use Naama's 
distinction, is he unique in substance or is he just a boy who, like 
many ordinary people, can be quite extraordinary if he fulfills his 
potential?  How JKR handles this will have a big impact on whether HP 
stays one of my all-time favorites or ends up being disappointing."

--I agree, but Harry is IMO unique in substance because he is/will be 
able to fufill his potential. Just what that potential is, and how 
great it is we are yet to know.

Amy wrote:
"Even if there proves to have been a prophecy that this boy would 
defeat Voldemort and the prophecy comes true, it doesn't mean that  
that or any other prophecy =had= to come true in the HP universe.  We 
are not puppets acting out a drama whose end has already been 
written; our choices are real and make a difference."

Ebony wrote:
"After reading this, I finally understood why I'm in the less popular 
camp.  It goes beyond Harry Potter... it's a way of seeing life, I 
think. My personal worldview is that everything that happens, 
everything that ever  is, was, or will be is by intelligent design.  
I also believe that the end  is already known, but also believe in 
free will... the designer's  foreknowledge of what happens in the 
last chapter does not negate the freely made choices of the 
individual."

--How interesting. I think Ebony's right about the fact that it has 
less to do with the canon itself and far more to do with the view we 
bring to the canon. My worldview happens to be different than yours, 
but that's what makes the list so interesting. Of course everything 
happens for a reason, whether we determine the reason by making it 
happen or it's by 'intelligent design' is each person's view.

Ebony wrote:
"I love what The Phantom Tollbooth has to say about
this.  After Milo succeeds in his quest, Azaz and the Mathemagician
let him in on the secret they'd only hinted at before:  that his quest
was impossible.  So much for prophecies (but if they'd told him it was
impossible before, methinks the prophecy would have come true).  I
think Dumbledore would take a similar approach.  He believes that
people's decisions, not to mention blind chance, can overrule what
would seem to be fate."

--I don't think I've ever read "The Phantom Tollbooth" so I'm not 
sure what you're saying. That Harry's task whatever it might be is 
unaccomplishable, and if Harry knew that it would be? It's kind of 
like a book I read long ago called "Number the Stars" about Nazi 
Denmark. The little girl (what was her name?) wanted to know what was 
happening and someone told her that it was better not know because it 
kept her from being afraid. Maybe that's part of Dumbledore's reason 
for keeping things from Harry. If Harry knew what he had to do he 
wouldn't be able to face it.

Ebony wrote:
"Again, I suppose this just taps into what I believe about good and 
evil. "When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit will lift up 
a Standard against him."  Evil is always around, but once in a while 
Evil personified  steps onto the scene.  Yet whenever this happens, 
there seems to be always  someone--or a group of someones--to stand 
against Evil and overcome it."

--Once again it's our perceptions that colour our views. I think the 
reason people stand against what they see is evil is because they see 
the potential for it in themselves and know that they are only better 
than evil, because they choose to be. Mcgonagall tells Dumbledore 
that the only reason V. has powers beyond his own is because he is 
too noble to use them. To (roughly) paraphrase D. "Evil can never be 
truly defeated, but as long as there are enough of us willing to 
fight the losing battle it will never win." Harry and all the other 
"good-guys" can't expect to "win" in a glorious everything's perfect 
sense, because any victory will probably be full of loss and 
bittersweet (and only temporary).

Amy wrote:
"Now, that's something we *haven't* talked about much... Harry being 
but the first of a coven assembled to overcome this foe.  Perhaps it 
won't be all  about Harry after all."

Ebony wrote:
"Still think he's special, though.  ;-)  Hey, call me crazy... lots 
of other listies do.  I don't mind.  Well, not much.  :-)"

--You're not crazy Eb! Well not much, I get the feeling we're all a 
bit crazy (in a good way!). The story's obviously about Harry, but 
maybe not in the most clear-cut way.

I'm now not sure who's side I'm on! {{{{sigh}}}}
Just goes to show one really should catch up on messages first.

Scott




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May 18 04:51:01 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 04:51:01 -0000
Subject: Differences in HP-books?
In-Reply-To: <9e0v5t+cjr1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e29nl+t6ei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18955

> 
> My question is: what are the exact differences between british and 
> american editions? Is anywhere somekind of list of these 
differences? 
> I didn't get very high number in HP-fanatic-test, but I still would 
> like to write down these differences into my books. =)
> 
> Thank You, Jenny
********************
Steve & I discussed doing just such a list. Mostly, words which mean 
one thing in UK and another in US, are the difference. Words such as 
bangs (US) and fringe (UK) or sweater (US) and jumper (UK).

There are, however, a few places where JKR has changed a word or 
added/deleted a sentence. These have been discussed at various times 
here on the list.

I do not know if there is another website which lists the differences.

Doreen
**********************




From floridian127 at yahoo.com  Fri May 18 05:21:25 2001
From: floridian127 at yahoo.com (floridian127 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 05:21:25 -0000
Subject: Lupin on the train 
In-Reply-To: <20010517112222.43713.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e2bgl+iv0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18956

You brought up a good point. Lupin could have told Dumbledore or the 
MOM that Sirius was an animagus. Lupin had no reason to keep it from 
Dumbledore. He could be charged with withholding information for not 
telling MOM. He did find it hard to believe Sirius would betray the 
Potters. Strange, he never visited him in azkaban and asked him about 
it.    

Here is something I have wondered about. As long as Lupin spent at 
Hogwarts he never saw Scabbers. He was asleep most of the train ride 
but he was so close. He was friends with Harry and Ron, but never saw 
Scabbers. Has anyone noticed this? 


Flory - Buccy's sister elf. (pronounced Buck-e) 
Sirs and Mams are generous to let us post. We is still getting used 
to all the freedoms master gives us. House elves are not spose to get 
freedoms or pay. Thank you again kind sirs and mams, thank you. 
(Flory magically hits send) 


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> Lupin was on the train:
> 
> 1.  To get to Hogwarts himself.
> 
> 2.  To protect the son of the best friend he ever had from being
> harmed in some way by another mutal friend who apparently betrayed
> them all a dozen years earlier and committed mass murder.  
> 
> What exactly he could do to defend Harry on the train is open to
> debate but I'm sure Lupin felt that simply "being there" to keep an
> eye on things would help somehow.  True, he had no way of knowing
> that Harry would end up in his compartment but that can be 
overcome. 
> Once the train started, Lupin could walk up and down the corridor,
> meeting and greeting.  After all, he didn't need to meet Harry as
> much as he had to watch for Sirius Black or a large black dog.
> 
> And I don't think that Lupin had slammed the door shut on friendship
> with Black.  After all, once Black escaped from prison, Lupin could
> have gone to Dumbledore at least and advised him to watch out for a
> big black dog as well as for Black himself.  It would have been a 
big
> help to the authorities.  But Lupin didn't do that.  Could it be 
that
> deep down inside he couldn't bring himself to do it?
> 





From danicav at hotmail.com  Fri May 18 07:05:53 2001
From: danicav at hotmail.com (Danica)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:05:53 -0000
Subject: was British words ... Miss, Mrs. Ms. Hogwarts teachers
In-Reply-To: <9e0mnc+2qmh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e2hkh+74in@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18957

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
Although don't  most american children address female teachers as 
Ma'am, or is that  just a common misconception promoted by the 
peanuts comic strip? 

Hi,

I don't know about the British school system, however being an 
American and growing up in the American Public and Private school 
system what I can tell you is...  Female Teachers in pre-school are 
addressed as Ms. "first name".   Kindergarten through Highschool 
female teachers are addressed as Mrs./Ms. (usually can't tell the 
difference) "Last name".  Male teachers are addressed as Mr. "Last 
name".  The exception to this being some Coaches who were addressed 
as "Coach", "Sir" or Mr. "Last name"  There were a few of us (with 
manners) who would reply with a "Yes/No Sir/Ma'am" to questions 
directed at us however, we were rare.

Following Highschool, when I went to college, it was Mr./Mrs. "Last 
name" or Dr. "Last name" with the exception of a teacher that I had 
befriended some years earlier whom expected me to call him by first 
name.  Which I couldn't bring myself to do in class! 

As a side note, throughout college, and by some teachers in High 
School, I was addressed as Ms. Olsen.

Danica




From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Fri May 18 07:27:51 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:27:51 -0000
Subject: Illnesses, deaths and St Mungo's
Message-ID: <9e2itn+828j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18958




This is a question that I've been considering posting a couple of 
times before and I'm sorry if you already discussed it to the 
breaking point somewhere earlier. It's also something that's been 
bothering me since I started writing on my fanfiction.  
What about witches/wizards and illnesses? We know very little about 
this. 
What we do know about them is that they didn't burn to death during 
the Middle Ages, Madam Pomfrey can fix any broken bone in a couple of 
minutes, nobody is ever getting colds and if they do I'm quite sure 
there would be a potion to cure it immediately. 
Is it so that only magic can kill a wizard? Is it impossible for them 
to get deathly sick unless it's a magical decease and given to them 
by another wizard? St Mungo's is a hosptital for Magical Deceases 
only, right?

And another thing- do you think that there among the wizards are some 
more suitable to cure and heal people, like Healers, to compare with 
Parselmouths ;-) *grin*

Glitter,

Lilith Morgana





From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Fri May 18 10:35:54 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:35:54 -0000
Subject: Dementors - Hermione
In-Reply-To: <20010517192456.05D7A64B3@postfix2.ofir.com>
Message-ID: <9e2tua+olm5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18959

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tim Kronsell <timkronsell2 at o...> wrote:
> The Patronus appears to me to work against the dementors, like D's 
> work against humans.
> 
> Dementors are filling a ?human with felelings of sorrow, hatred, 
hopelessness, 
> etc. and a Patronus is filling the dementor
> with feelings of happiness, joy, hope, etc.
> 
> Thus rendering it dead if keeping it up to long. Therefor the 
dementor flees, 
> rather than stay and be killed.
> 
> Darreder
>
Reading these posts has set me thinking... 

JKR has gone on record that dementors are the product of a period of 
depression she went through - I believe that is why they are so 
scary, as they are the expression of a real experience (I wonder 
about the lethifold too).

With that in mind, I think this is how the patronus may work.  It is 
plain that the d's suck out good, rather than fill up with bad. They 
affect some worse than others because they have more bad 
(experiences) to leave behind.  The basic strategy is to resist by 
holding on to the good things, in particularly the memory of a moment 
of supreme happiness.  The patronus is the embodiment and symbol of 
this.  Its unique shape asserts that it belongs to the sender alone 
and therefore cannot be assimilated by the dementors.  The message 
the dementors receive from its existence and activity is that 
(because the sender has achieved the inner victory of holding on to 
the memory) there is a source of hope that swamps their ability to 
suck it away.  Once the dementors are dispersed the patronus returns 
to its sender from whom it was never really separate.

In Harry's case, this is bound up with (the assurance of) 
reconnecting to his father through Sirius.

We may speculate that JKR did something similar to win her own inner 
victory - if so, we may all have benefited as the series might have 
stopped after 2.5 books.

Any thoughts?

David




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Fri May 18 10:39:26 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:39:26 -0000
Subject: Differences in HP-books?
In-Reply-To: <9e29nl+t6ei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e2u4u+g4mm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18960

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > 
> > My question is: what are the exact differences between british 
and 
> > american editions? Is anywhere somekind of list of these 
> differences? 

> > Thank You, Jenny
> ********************
> Steve & I discussed doing just such a list. 
<snippety>
> I do not know if there is another website which lists the 
differences.
> 
> Doreen
> **********************

HPGalleries has an extensive "word gallery" with US/UK 
changes as well as several other languages. This is the 
address for the US/UK page:

http://hpgalleries.com/wordgallery1.htm

Ivis




From janey_13 at yahoo.com  Fri May 18 11:37:11 2001
From: janey_13 at yahoo.com (janey_13 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:37:11 -0000
Subject: HI it's still me
Message-ID: <9e31h7+b6av@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18961

Just wanted to let everyone know this is r.yoo at scotland.com now 
janey_13 at yahoo.com I can still take mail at the old one, but I would 
prefer if I was contacted through the yahoo account.  Thanks!

Rebecca




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri May 18 12:54:44 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:54:44 -0000
Subject: Differences in HP-books?
In-Reply-To: <9e29nl+t6ei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e362k+qa8l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18962

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > 
> > My question is: what are the exact differences between british 
and 
> > american editions? Is anywhere somekind of list of these 
> differences? 
> > I didn't get very high number in HP-fanatic-test, but I still 
would 
> > like to write down these differences into my books. 

The Harry Potter Galleries has a list of differences. It's at

http://www.hpgalleries.com/wordgallery1.htm

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Fri May 18 13:48:20 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 06:48:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?
In-Reply-To: <9e274s+8p7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010518134820.10429.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18963

Hi!  I just signed up for the list, and I don't tend
to lurk.  My name's Barb, and I could help be
fascinated by the many arguments for and against
Harry's "specialness."  I think the clue that JKR
gives to what makes Harry special lies in how similar
to Voldemort Harry is in many ways--half Muggle,
orphaned, raised in the Muggle world, even physical
similarities.  But the the greatest DISSIMILARITY
between Harry and Voldemort is something that V. has
that H. does not: he uses his background and childhood
experiences to feed his anger and hatred.  He is
forever pursuing power over others as some kind of
revenge against the universe for making him powerless
to control his situation when he was a child.  Harry's
response is very Zen; he does not try to control, and
usually finds that he is in complete control.  He does
not become an embittered, revenge-driven person, even
after years of living in a closet under the stairs. 
He is always ready to risk his own safety for the good
of others.  He thinks of himself last, and comes out
on top.  

That's one reason why Ron is merely a sidekick; he has
a lot of bottled-up resentment and jealousy, and
dreams of glory (his vision in the Mirror of Erised;
and is it any coincidence he had to spend so much time
cleaning slug slime off Tom Riddle's Award for Special
Services to the School?).  Although I don't think
he'll turn evil or anything, he could certainly make a
bad decision at some point that will put Harry or
others at risk.  He's an accident waiting to happen. 
(But Harry will forgive him afterwards, because that's
who he is.)

Harry and Voldemort have very similar departure
points, but their destinations are very different. 
THAT is what makes Harry special.

 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri May 18 14:15:15 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:15:15 -0000
Subject: Responsibility/Irresponsibility
Message-ID: <9e3apj+mfoj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18964

Hi all, 

This was on my "thought for the day" on the MSN homepage:

'It is better to be irresponsible and right than responsible and 
wrong.' --Winston Churchill.

Of course, given my predilictions/obsession, the first person I 
thought of was Harry.  It suits him to a T.  He's often irresponsible 
(going after the Philosopher's Stone, rescuing Ginny from the Chamber 
of Secrets, following Ron and Sirius into the Shrieking Shack) but 
he's right in all of these examples.  

Just thought I'd throw this out there & see where you take it. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com  Fri May 18 14:31:31 2001
From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com (Erich)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:31:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Differences in HP-books?
References: <9e2u4u+g4mm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f201c0dfa7$3ba25240$3b82d2cc@rochester.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18965

The changes are not very big..And they really don't have anything to do with changes the stories.
Like in the britsh version. sweaters are called jumpers. Because that"s what they are called in the UK



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 18 15:02:54 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:02:54 -0000
Subject: Prophecies - Lupin visiting Black, seeing Scabbers
Message-ID: <9e3diu+e0ve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18966

I (it was Amy, not Ebony) wrote:

"I love what The Phantom Tollbooth has to say about
this.  After Milo succeeds in his quest, Azaz and the Mathemagician
let him in on the secret they'd only hinted at before:  that his quest
was impossible.  So much for prophecies (but if they'd told him it was
impossible before, methinks the prophecy would have come true).  I
think Dumbledore would take a similar approach.  He believes that
people's decisions, not to mention blind chance, can overrule what
would seem to be fate."

Scott wrote:

>I don't think I've ever read "The Phantom Tollbooth" so I'm not 
>sure what you're saying. That Harry's task whatever it might be is 
>unaccomplishable, and if Harry knew that it would be? 

No, I didn't mean the unaccomplishable part, just the "prophecies 
don't have to come true" part.  It does sound like the kind of thing 
Dumbledore would withhold from Harry, though.

Floridian (how's the weather down there?) wrote:

> Strange, he never visited him in azkaban and asked him about it.    

That might have cleared up a lot of problems, huh?  (And ruined a 
fantastic story.)  I get the sense prisoners in Azkaban aren't allowed 
too many visitors.  As soon as we get Fudge out of the MOM and get 
this little Voldemort skirmish out of the way, let's institute some 
prison reform.  Sirius Black for chief of Magical Law Enforcement!

>Here is something I have wondered about. As long as Lupin spent at 
>Hogwarts he never saw Scabbers. He was asleep most of the train ride 
>but he was so close. He was friends with Harry and Ron, but never saw 
>Scabbers. Has anyone noticed this?

I also wondered whether Lupin knows Ron has a rat, and I think he 
probably does because he so quickly grasps what must be happening when 
he sees Peter's name on the map.  If he didn't know HR or H had a pet 
rat, he'd think Peter was stowing away or something.  Also, once in 
the Shrieking Shack, he doesn't see Scabbers until he asks Ron to take 
him out:

He had stopped his pacing, his eyes moving over Ron.
"Do you think I could have a look at the rat?" he said evenly. . . .
Ron hesitated, then put a hand inside his robes.  Scabbers emerged, 
thrashing desperately . . . (PA 17)

>From what he saw on the map, it made sense to think Peter was rat in 
Ron's pocket, but how does he know he's still with Ron and not, say, 
Hermione?  How does he know he hasn't run away entirely?  It all seems 
like too much for him to put together unless he already knows Ron has 
a rat and puts it together.  

Ron does carry Scabbers around in his pocket, including to class, it 
seems, so Lupin could easily have seen him anytime.  He wouldn't have 
thought anything of it.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
    "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!"
 said Fred indignantly.
    "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying
 git," said George.  "Isn't he, Harry?"
    "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly.
                 --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------------




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri May 18 15:05:53 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:05:53 -0000
Subject: Responsibility/Irresponsibility
In-Reply-To: <9e3apj+mfoj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3doh+irmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18967

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> Hi all, 
> 
> This was on my "thought for the day" on the MSN homepage:
> 
> 'It is better to be irresponsible and right than responsible and 
> wrong.' --Winston Churchill.
> 
> Of course, given my predilictions/obsession, the first person I 
> thought of was Harry.  It suits him to a T.  He's often 
irresponsible 
> (going after the Philosopher's Stone, rescuing Ginny from the 
Chamber 
> of Secrets, following Ron and Sirius into the Shrieking Shack) but 
> he's right in all of these examples.  
> 
> Just thought I'd throw this out there & see where you take it. 
> 
> Peace & Plenty, 
> 
> Parker

I like the notion, but I'm not sure that it applies in those specific 
examples.  When he goes after the Philosopher's Stone, and resues 
Ginny from the chamber of secrets, he is doing so for one reason - 
the absence of Dumbledore both times means that there aren't any 
other real options open to him.  In the first case, Professor 
McGonagall isn't taking him seriously (which is a good thing, as he 
would only have pointed the finger at Snape).  In the second case, he 
and Ron try to enlist the help of Lockhart - they don't try and do 
the thing purely by themselves.  In both cases, if Dumbledore had 
been available, Harry would have left it to him - told him what he 
knew etc.  As for the Shrieking Shack episode - they didn't want to 
go and fetch Dumbledore, as they didn't want to get Hagrid into 
trouble, and again, I think that it is acting responsibly by not 
abandoning one's friend and trying to help him.

Therefore, IMO, in all cited occassions, with regard to the denuement 
at least, Harry actions show that he is taking responsibility.
Feel free to shout me down! (I guess that goes without saying!)

Catherine





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May 18 16:01:52 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:01:52 -0000
Subject: Lupin on the train
In-Reply-To: <9e2bgl+iv0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3h1g+28u3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18968

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., floridian127 at y... wrote:

> Here is something I have wondered about. As long as Lupin spent at 
> Hogwarts he never saw Scabbers. He was asleep most of the train 
ride 
> but he was so close. He was friends with Harry and Ron, but never 
saw 
> Scabbers. Has anyone noticed this? 

Everytime I re-read the Hogwarts Express chapter in PoA, I wonder if 
Lupin really is asleep. Granted, I can be a heavy sleeper too, but 
three kids and their pets stumbling into a compartment and having 
hushed conversations would probably wake me up a little. 

I've subscribed to the idea that Dumbledore had Lupin ride the 
Express to Hogwarts in the event that Sirius Black should try to harm 
Harry en route. I'm not so sure how much of a coincidence it was that 
Harry, Ron and Hermione shared the compartment with Lupin.

Milz




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri May 18 16:04:56 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:04:56 -0000
Subject: Illnesses, deaths and St Mungo's
In-Reply-To: <9e2itn+828j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3h78+kfmi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18969

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> What about witches/wizards and illnesses? We know very little about 
> this. 
> What we do know about them is that they didn't burn to death during 
> the Middle Ages, Madam Pomfrey can fix any broken bone in a couple 
of 
> minutes, nobody is ever getting colds and if they do I'm quite sure 
> there would be a potion to cure it immediately. 
> Is it so that only magic can kill a wizard? Is it impossible for 
them 
> to get deathly sick unless it's a magical decease and given to them 
> by another wizard? St Mungo's is a hosptital for Magical Deceases 
> only, right?

This is an interesting question.  We know that magic can not cure all 
muggle diseases; it can not fix nearsightedness, for example.  
Wizards can get colds, but they can be cured with Pepper-Up Potion.  
Can wizards get measles?  cancer?  Alzeheimers?  Can some be cured 
but not others?  If some diseases can be cured with magic, can you 
ask for a magical cure for muggle friends and family.  For example, 
what if one of Hermiones dentist parents got, say, an incurable gum 
disease.  Would Hermione be allowed to give them a magical cure?

--Joywitch




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May 18 16:18:06 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:18:06 -0000
Subject: Illnesses, deaths and St Mungo's
In-Reply-To: <9e2itn+828j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3hvu+b385@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18970

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a question that I've been considering posting a couple of 
> times before and I'm sorry if you already discussed it to the 
> breaking point somewhere earlier. It's also something that's been 
> bothering me since I started writing on my fanfiction.  
> What about witches/wizards and illnesses? We know very little about 
> this. 
> What we do know about them is that they didn't burn to death during 
> the Middle Ages, Madam Pomfrey can fix any broken bone in a couple 
of 
> minutes, nobody is ever getting colds and if they do I'm quite sure 
> there would be a potion to cure it immediately. 
> Is it so that only magic can kill a wizard? Is it impossible for 
them 
> to get deathly sick unless it's a magical decease and given to them 
> by another wizard? St Mungo's is a hosptital for Magical Deceases 
> only, right?
> 
> And another thing- do you think that there among the wizards are 
some 
> more suitable to cure and heal people, like Healers, to compare 
with 
> Parselmouths ;-) *grin*

I think the Wizarding population uses medicinal potions the same way 
and for the same reasons as we use medicinal potions (medications). 
Granted the wizarding variety might work faster and might have 
interesting side effects (Pepper Up Potion causes smoke to come out 
of one's ears). 

I do think that the magical pharmaceutical companies are still 
figuring out cures for magical maladies, such as werewolf-ism and the 
madness afflicting the Longbottoms. If magic could cure *everything*, 
Gilderoy Lockhart would probably have his memory back and would be 
writing a new book "Braving the Basilisk".

Lupin tells Ron and Harry that Madame Pomphrey can mend bones better 
than he. I think some magical people have a greater aptitude at 
healing magical arts than others.

Milz




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri May 18 16:26:09 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:26:09 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #3
Message-ID: <9e3if1+9c0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18971

This week's contest comes from Stephanie (sdrk1 at yahoo.com) who says: 

>How about a "make up your own spell" contest.  God knows I could use 
one for fishing Teletubbies out of our toilet...

Is there a spell you could use for a specific aspect of your life?  
How would that spell work?  For example, maybe Stephanie should point 
her wand at the toilet and say:

"Tinky-Winky, Whatever, Lala, Po
This is not where teletubbies go!"

Here is another example -- around 6 months ago, there was a thread on 
the list about magical parenting where we speculated (who knows why) 
on whether or not baby wizards and witches wore diapers.  I suggested 
that maybe they don't; perhaps there is a spell that parents use like 
"Poopus Gowayus." (I'll bet Penny wishes she had that spell!)

OK, so that's the contest.  Tell us a little about a spell you need 
in your life and how it would work.  It can be a charm, a potion, it 
can involve wands, broomsticks, or whatever.

Remember, send your entry by email to HP4GUCon at aol.com, and NOT to 
the list!  Just as a reminder, here are the contest rules:

1.  Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email 
address, which is HP4GUCon at aol.com.  RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED 
TO THE LIST.  Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers, to 
the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest, 
sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to eat 
bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST.

2.  Contests will be posted on Fridays.  Responses should be sent by 
email to HP4GUCon at aol.com by midnight Tuesday night (EST).  For 
puzzle contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who 
submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted on 
Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest).  For creative and speculative 
contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a 
random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular 
contest.

--Joywitch

P.S.  I want to thank all of our poets, once again, for those 
marvelous entries in last week's contest.  If you particularly liked 
any of the poems, or have any comments about the poetry contest, feel 
free to compliment the poets individually or tell me, by email of 
course to HP4GUCon at aol.com




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May 18 16:35:07 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:35:07 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
Message-ID: <9e3ivr+r152@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18972

Rowling leaves a number of clues in her books that foreshadow events 
(red flags) in the upcoming ones, for example Mrs. Figg. I assume 
there are some false clues (red herrings) included too, though I 
can't think of any off-hand. This list has discussed the more obvious 
ones such as the green-eyes thing but here are a few red flags- red 
herrings I wonder about.

CREATURES:
PIGWIDGEON(PoA)
Sirius doubts Pig's reliability and noted that Pig was eager for the 
job of delivering to Harry. Is Pig a double agent?

CENTAURS: RONAN, BANE, FIRENZE
'One book wonders' or shall we meet again?

ARAGOG
In a way, Aragog has an issue with Voldy. Voldy exposed Aragog and 
framed Hagrid.

LETHIFOLD
Mentioned in "Fantastic Beasts". It kills wizards and witches. The 
only thing that can stop it is the Patronus. Will one be sent to Ron 
or Hermione (since they haven't mastered the Patronus yet?) Will one 
be sent to Harry?

BUCKBEAK
Will he have a greater role than Sirius' mode of transportation?

PEOPLE:
BILL WEASLEY (GoF)
Bill states that the last time he was at Hogwarts was 5 years ago.
Is the purpose of that visit somehow important?

VIKTOR KRUM
Good-guy? Bad-guy? Somewhere in-between?

THE MCKINNONS
Wizard family mentioned by Hagrid in SS/PS and killed during the 
Voldy years. 

DURSLEYS: PHYSICAL FEATURES AND MAGICAL INCIDENTS
SS/PS The Dursleys are given almost animal-like physical 
descriptions. Dudley is pig-like. Petunia with her long neck, blonde 
hair, and horse-like face, is giraffe-like. Vernon is description is 
reminiscent of a bull, IMO. SS, PoA, and GoF, some magical incident 
physically affected a Dursley. Aunt Marge inflated. Dudley has had a 
piggy-tail and a ton-tongue. Are the animal-like physical 
descriptions a clue to further Dursley related magical incidents? 

BERTHA JORKIN
Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?

HOGWARTS STUDENTS: MUGGLE-BORNS, HALF-MUGGLES, PURE-BLOODS
The Muggle-borns seem to get most of the Slytherin-minded attention. 
But, Ginny Weasley's possession by Tom Riddle's Diary showed that the 
pure-bloods aren't really "safe" (Cedric seemed to come from a 
wizarding family too). When all is said and done, are the Pure-bloods 
more high-risk than the Muggle-borns or half-Muggles?

DAEDULUS DIGGLE
Diggle was mentioned twice in SS (akin to Mungdungus Fletcher who was 
mentioned in CoS and GoF). Red flag? Red herring?

OBJECTS:
OPAL NECKLACE (CoS, GoF)
In Borgin and Burke's shop, there was a cursed opal necklace. Madame 
Maxime wears an opal necklace in GoF. Assuming that they are the same 
necklace, is the opal necklace a red flag or red herring?

"THE MONSTER BOOK OF MONSTERS"
Will the biting book that can only be calmed by tickling its spine 
play an important role?

THE SNEAKOSCOPE
When last we heard of it, it was in Harry's trunk (GoF)

WIZARD CANDY
BERTIE BOTT'S EVERY FLAVOR BEANS
Don't know exactly why, but for some reason I don't trust their 
presence in the books. There's something mildly sinister about them.
CHOCOLATE FROGS
Ditto for the frogs.

THE PHOTO ALBUM
Hagrid sent owls to James and Lily's school friends for photos. Harry 
notices Sirius in the wedding photos. Any other friends/foes lurking 
about in them? Will Harry met these school friends?

UNFOGGING THE FUTURE:
CENTAURS' PROPHECIES (SS/PS)
"Mars is unusually bright tonight" (Fulfilled in SS/PS, but does it 
still apply?)
"Always the innocent are the first victims. So it has been for ages 
past, so it is now."
"The forest [Forbidden Forest] hides many secrets."

DIVINATION/FORTUNE-TELLING CREDIBILITY
In SS/PS, Harry tells Hermione of the Centaur's prophecies. Hermione 
replies the prophecies sounded like fortune-telling, which McGonagall 
says is an inaccurate magical art. In PoA, we are introduced to 
Professor Trelawney and exposed to more of McGonagall's opinion of 
divination. Are we being set up to believe that divination is 
inaccurate, when it really isn't? Or is Rowling being honest with us 
about the inaccuracy of divination?

TRELAWNEY'S PREDICTIONS
This is a sub-group of divination credibility. But Trelawney's 
Christmas Lunch prediction in PoA was that whoever rose from the 
table first would be the first to die. Harry and Ron rose 
simultaneously. Most of Trelawney's predictions are partially correct 
(Parvati's "beware of a red-haired man", when Padma was Ron's date 
for the Yule Ball). Is the Christmas Dinner prediction a red flag or 
a red herring? Will Ron and Harry be the only survivors of those 
seated at the table? Will Ron and Harry cause a death?

PLACES:
GODRIC'S HOLLOW
Site of the first Voldy-Harry battle. Could it be the final 
battleground?

FORBIDDEN FOREST
Aragog's domicile, the Flying Ford Anglia's sylvan garage. The 
Centaurs said it held many secrets. Have we learned all of them?

HOGWARTS CASTLE
Magical castle with plenty of magical rooms, including one that Harry 
hasn't found yet. Is Hogwarts the site of the final battle?

DUMBLEDORE'S OFFICE
It houses the penseive, Godric Gryffindor's sword, the Sorting Hat 
and Fawkes. Will Harry find anymore useful things in there (with the 
exception of Dumbledore of course) 

SNAPE'S OFFICE
In PoA, Harry noticed Snape had more jars of potion materials than in 
CoS. Are these routine supplies or is Snape stocking up for something 
else?

MALFOY HOUSE
The secret room in which Malfoy hides Dark magic items. 

KNOCKTURN ALLEY
Was Harry's visit a one-time thing?

CURSES/SPELLS/CHARMS/POTIONS/ETC.
UNFORGIVABLE CURSES
Will Harry use one or all of them? Will Ron and or Hermione?

THE 12 USES OF DRAGONS BLOOD
Will they come in handy?

POLYJUICE POTION
PJP has been used twice in the series. Will it rear its ugly head 
again?
---

Milz




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri May 18 17:09:20 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:09:20 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3ivr+r152@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3l00+j3dk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18973

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Rowling leaves a number of clues in her books 

Excellent summary! Another addition to this list:

Azkaban
We know that the Dementors are all but certain to turn to Voldemort, 
and thus free a number of his followers. At some point in the 
remaining books, will be actually visit Azkaban? Will Azkaban become 
the HQ of the voldemort's forces? Will it become a prison for 
Voldemort's opposition.  If so, who better qualifed to lead a rescue 
mission that Harry (with his mastery of the Patronus Charm?)

  - CMC




From scabbers at pacbell.net  Fri May 18 17:45:46 2001
From: scabbers at pacbell.net (scabbers at pacbell.net)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:45:46 -0000
Subject: average Harry
Message-ID: <9e3n4a+50od@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18974

Ebony, I bow before you for one of the most touching, accurate 
descriptions of being gifted I have ever read.  It has always seemed to 
me that, while Lupin and Hagrid are metaphors for the outcast and 
oppressed, Harry is a beautiful metaphor for a gifted child coming of 
age.  He has powers he doesn't understand (and who does understand 
their talents?); they completely uproot him from his old life, mostly 
for the better, although then he finds himself facing fears and dangers 
he had no idea existed; and even in this world with people "like him," 
he's outcast for his "special" powers (this comes across most 
powerfully in GoF where Ron shuns him just before the dragon task; JKR 
did a lovely job "growing them up" from 13 to 14).

Is Harry average? I would argue a resounding NO.  He's not superior in 
every aspect of life, obviously, but he is burdened with gifts that 
come along once a century.

Coming of age child-genius stories are everywhere, but I've rarely 
experienced one so powerful as Harry Potter, and I think a lot of this 
is because it's metaphorical.  For example, Roald Dahl's *Matilda* has 
many of the same elements and is a great story... but as a kid, it 
scared me.  It was too literal; I was biting my nails off worrying that 
her parents would do her physical harm.  Whereas, with Harry, well-- we 
can all laugh as Snape tries to poison him, because it's so clearly not 
real.  It gives you a chance to experience rejection, alienation, 
prejudice, all of these terrible things, in a non-threatening way so 
that you're not bristling or trembling as you read it.

Another character, who brings home the point even harder and whom I 
hope we learn more about, is young Tom Riddle.  So much like Harry in 
so many ways; so what made the difference?  What if Tom had been forced 
to combat Grindelwald hidden in the smelly turban of his DADA 
professor?  What if someone he loved (if he ever loved anyone) was 
killed by the Dark Side?  It is our choices that make us what we are... 
and somewhere, something led Tom astray, probably slowly and at first 
imperceptibly.  (And perhaps he wrote something like *The Bell Curve* 
after first converting to evil... carefully editing out his 
generation's Hermione, of course).

Geez, it's waning crescent and I have work to do...

No longer a lurker,
Moon

PS for those who claim that Lupin couldn't have written a book in 1976, 
may I argue that 16 is the prime age for penning angsty diatribes... 
Can you just imagine him shoving the parchment under the mattress (or 
whatever the wizarding equivalent is, of course)?

PPS For anyone who's read GoF in French... what on EARTH is Madame 
Maxime's accent supposed to be??






From linman6868 at aol.com  Fri May 18 18:50:17 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:50:17 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
Message-ID: <9e3qt9+i5ql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18975

Hello all --

A question occurred to me as I was thinking over some of the recent 
discussion of GoF, and I don't know if it's been addressed before, 
but here goes anyway...

Mad-Eye Moody says in the Pensieve that the proper treatment of 
Karkaroff would be to "hear his information and then throw him back 
to the dementors."  However, Voldemort later in GoF exults to his 
followers that he plans to call the dementors, "their natural 
allies," to his side once more.  Dumbledore confirms this by telling 
Fudge that Voldemort can give the dementors more scope for their 
pleasures than Fudge can.  I can't remember whether it's the giants 
Dumbledore says V. convinced to join him once before, or the 
dementors (and I don't have GoF still).

So the question is, when did Azkaban come under the jurisdiction of 
the dementors?  Was it continually so under VWI?  Did Voldemort fail 
to get the dementors on his side the first time?  If Azkaban was 
guarded by anything but dementors before, what were the guards?

Steve, is there something in your timeline that addresses this?

Lisa I., who loved Amy Z's clerihews!!!





From vryce1974 at yahoo.com  Fri May 18 18:56:28 2001
From: vryce1974 at yahoo.com (Paul)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:56:28 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e3qt9+i5ql@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3r8s+qse2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18976

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote:
> Hello all --
> 
> A question occurred to me as I was thinking over some of the recent 
> discussion of GoF, and I don't know if it's been addressed before, 
> but here goes anyway...
> 
> Mad-Eye Moody says in the Pensieve that the proper treatment of 
> Karkaroff would be to "hear his information and then throw him back 
> to the dementors."  However, Voldemort later in GoF exults to his 
> followers that he plans to call the dementors, "their natural 
> allies," to his side once more.  Dumbledore confirms this by telling 
> Fudge that Voldemort can give the dementors more scope for their 
> pleasures than Fudge can.  I can't remember whether it's the giants 
> Dumbledore says V. convinced to join him once before, or the 
> dementors (and I don't have GoF still).
> 
> So the question is, when did Azkaban come under the jurisdiction of 
> the dementors?  Was it continually so under VWI?  Did Voldemort fail 
> to get the dementors on his side the first time?  If Azkaban was 
> guarded by anything but dementors before, what were the guards?
> 
> Steve, is there something in your timeline that addresses this?
> 
> Lisa I., who loved Amy Z's clerihews!!!

I believe that in GoF that Dumbledore states that they should try to
get to the giants before Voldemort does. So, that would lead me to
believe that Voldemort was able to convince the giants to join him the
last time and that the dementors were their allies from the beginning.
I too would be interested in finding out what the status for guards at
Azkabon was during Voldemorts uprising.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 18 19:00:51 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:00:51 -0000
Subject: Dementors 
In-Reply-To: <9e2tua+olm5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3rh3+bgph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18977

David wrote:
 
> With that in mind, I think this is how the patronus may work.  It 
is 
> plain that the d's suck out good, rather than fill up with bad. 
They 
> affect some worse than others because they have more bad 
> (experiences) to leave behind.  The basic strategy is to resist by 
> holding on to the good things, in particularly the memory of a 
moment 
> of supreme happiness.  The patronus is the embodiment and symbol of 
> this.  Its unique shape asserts that it belongs to the sender alone 
> and therefore cannot be assimilated by the dementors.  The message 
> the dementors receive from its existence and activity is that 
> (because the sender has achieved the inner victory of holding on to 
> the memory) there is a source of hope that swamps their ability to 
> suck it away.  Once the dementors are dispersed the patronus 
returns 
> to its sender from whom it was never really separate.


This all sounds right to me.  One other observation:  Lupin says that 
the way to conjure a Patronus is to concentrate on a happy memory, 
and Harry's attempts to come up with one that is substantial enough 
to counter a Dementor are very moving.  But later on he relies not on 
a memory but on "a happy thought," e.g. living with Sirius (end of 
PA), celebrating the end of the tournament with Ron and Hermione (3rd 
task, GF).  It seems to work.  
 
> We may speculate that JKR did something similar to win her own 
inner 
> victory - if so, we may all have benefited as the series might have 
> stopped after 2.5 books.
> 
> Any thoughts?

I wonder if psychotherapists who work with depressed children are 
going to start suggesting that they conjure a Patronus when 
their "Dementors" come near.  I may sound like I'm joking, but I'm 
not.  It might be a good technique.  (For adults, too, but I don't 
imagine HP has found its way into the adult side of the field very 
much.)

Amy Z




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri May 18 19:10:48 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:10:48 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e3qt9+i5ql@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3s3o+2q35@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18978

?
> 
> Steve, is there something in your timeline that addresses this?

There is nothing given in the books about this. However, the 
Dementors are more or less neutral as far as allegiences go. They 
will side with whomever gives them the most of what they want, which 
is human prey. They are currently on "our side" simply because ours 
is the only side there is. One might assume that during the Voldemort 
years from 1971-1981, the Dementors were in some way allied with the 
Dark Side, but there is nothing to tell us for sure. And it's not 
because they're "bad" -- they are what they are and they like what 
they like, rather like a tiger isn't "bad" because he eats people. I 
get the sense that they're version of intelligence is somewhat like 
an animal rather than human.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a Dementor page with a wonderfully horrible picture
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 18 19:21:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:21:57 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3ivr+r152@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e3sol+rdp9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18979

Milz, these were great.  Some comments, smart-aleck answers and 
additions follow.

> THE MCKINNONS
> Wizard family mentioned by Hagrid in SS/PS and killed during the 
> Voldy years. 

THE BONES
whose granddaughter is in Harry's year

> 
> BERTHA JORKIN
> Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?

Sirius, of course!  The Hunk of Hogwarts.  ;-)
 
> "THE MONSTER BOOK OF MONSTERS"
> Will the biting book that can only be calmed by tickling its spine 
> play an important role?

And will the Invisible Book of Invisibility finally, ah, show up?  
(We know there are hundreds of them roaming London.)

> 
> THE SNEAKOSCOPE
> When last we heard of it, it was in Harry's trunk (GoF)

so is THE POCKET KNIFE FROM SIRIUS

It undoes any lock or knot.  Sounds mighty useful, not to mention 
just the kind of thing a recently escaped prisoner would think to 
give.  Harry hasn't used it yet but one of these days it might prove 
crucial.
 
> THE PHOTO ALBUM
> Hagrid sent owls to James and Lily's school friends for photos. 
Harry 
> notices Sirius in the wedding photos. Any other friends/foes 
lurking 
> about in them? 

Does anyone else wonder about the person who sent the picture of 
Lily, James, and Sirius?  Doesn't that seem incredibly 
tactless?  "Honey, Hagrid wants pictures of Lily and James to give 
Harry."  "Oh, how sweet.  Let's send him the one with the slimy 
murdering SOB in it."  But perhaps it was a group photo and taking 
out one person would've been a little 1984ish.

I also wonder, monomaniac that I am, whether Lupin was in any of them.

> FORBIDDEN FOREST
> Aragog's domicile, the Flying Ford Anglia's sylvan garage. The 
> Centaurs said it held many secrets. Have we learned all of them?

What about the FLYING FORD ANGLIA itself?  Will it show up again?  I 
think that would be too much, myself (no offense, Neil), but I wonder.
 
> DUMBLEDORE'S OFFICE
> It houses the penseive, Godric Gryffindor's sword, the Sorting Hat 
> and Fawkes. Will Harry find anymore useful things in there (with 
the 
> exception of Dumbledore of course) 

Specifically, what do the whirring silver things do?

TAPDANCING PINEAPPLES
Why did Flitwick think this was so important that he put it on the 
final exam?  Will this skill prove essential in an upcoming 
incident?  Will the final showdown perhaps be in Hawaii?

Just kidding.

Amy Z




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri May 18 20:35:13 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:35:13 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3sol+rdp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4121+u4bh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18980

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
 
> > 
> > BERTHA JORKIN
> > Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?
> 
> Sirius, of course!  The Hunk of Hogwarts.  ;-)

Hmm, I thought it was Snape.  Who else would lash out at someone like 
that just for being caught kissing?  Besides, aren't there rumors that 
he'll fall in love or has a lost love in upcoming books?
>  
 
> TAPDANCING PINEAPPLES
> Why did Flitwick think this was so important that he put it on the 
> final exam?  Will this skill prove essential in an upcoming 
> incident?  Will the final showdown perhaps be in Hawaii?
> 
> Just kidding.

LOL!  I love reading your postings!

--jenny from ravenclaw**********************************************




From zenonah at yahoo.com  Fri May 18 21:21:20 2001
From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 21:21:20 -0000
Subject: Differences in HP-books?
Message-ID: <9e43og+r330@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18981

Thank you Doreen, Steve, Ivis and Erich for your answers! I had heard 
about words having different meanings. Back at school, they tried to 
teach us those differencies ... with some luck. =) But whole 
sentences! That was new. And now I'm off to see the list you gave me 
address to. I hope you will have time to do such a list also.

Jenny




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri May 18 22:20:56 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:20:56 -0000
Subject: Another Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e3s3o+2q35@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4788+urd9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18982

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> ?
> > 
And it's not 
> because they're "bad" -- they are what they are and they like what 
> they like, rather like a tiger isn't "bad" because he eats people. 
I 
> get the sense that they're version of intelligence is somewhat like 
> an animal rather than human.
> 
Another minor question about Dementors - how do they communicate with 
wizards? It is implied that some dialogue between Dementors and 
wizards is taking place. On Chap. 9 of PoA, Dumbledore says "I must 
go down to the dementors..I said I would inform them when our search 
was complete." Lupin later notes that the Dementors were "furious" 
with Dumbledore for restricting them from Hogwarts.

Of course Dumbledore is highly conversant in a number of languages 
(e.g., Mermish), but even the more maladroit Cornelius Fudge 
(remember his brief meeting with Bulgarian Minister of Magic in GoF, 
Chap. 8) is able to speak with Dementors. In Chap. 10 of PoA, Fudge 
says that "I've just met some of them. They're in a fury against 
Dumbledore --"  

Dementors never speak, although it has not been explicitly stated 
that they are nonverbal. Are they able to converse, but choose not to 
unless it is necessary?  Can they read minds? (since they can suck 
happy thoughts out of a person, it would seem that telepathy would 
not be beyond them). Or do they have their own unique idiom (it would 
have to be simpler than Bulgarian) that must be used to converse with 
them?

  - CMC





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Fri May 18 22:28:34 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:28:34 -0000
Subject: Lupin on the train
In-Reply-To: <9e3h1g+28u3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e47mi+rkk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18983

Lupin would have recognized Scabbers immediately if he actually saw 
him. Sirius recognized him from a picture in the paper. Lupin sees a 
lump in Ron's pocket and thinks 'so, Ron has a rat, no big deal.' but 
when he sees Peter on the map... CLICK 

Dumbledore could have heard or simply asked 'Harry, do you like 
riding the Express?' 'Where did you usually sit?' Then he puts Lupin 
in the most likely spot Harry would go.  
 
Bugg  



Milz wrote:
> I've subscribed to the idea that Dumbledore had Lupin ride the 
Express to Hogwarts in the event that Sirius Black should try to 
harm Harry en route. I'm not so sure how much of a coincidence it 
was that Harry, Ron and Hermione shared the compartment with Lupin.


Amy Wrote:  
> Strange, he never visited him in azkaban and asked him about it.
That might have cleared up a lot of problems, huh?  (And ruined a 
fantastic story.)  I get the sense prisoners in Azkaban aren't 
allowed too many visitors.  As soon as we get Fudge out of the 
MOM and get this little Voldemort skirmish out of the way, let's 
institute some prison reform.  Sirius Black for chief of Magical 
Law Enforcement! 

>I also wondered whether Lupin knows Ron has a rat, and I think 
he probably does because he so quickly grasps what must be 
happening when he sees Peter's name on the map.  If he didn't 
know HR or H had a pet rat, he'd think Peter was stowing away or 
something.  Also, once in the Shrieking Shack, he doesn't see 
Scabbers until he asks Ron to take him out: 
He had stopped his pacing, his eyes moving over Ron. 
"Do you think I could have a look at the rat?" he said evenly. .
Ron hesitated, then put a hand inside his robes.  Scabbers 
emerged, thrashing desperately . . . (PA 17)

>From what he saw on the map, it made sense to think Peter was rat 
in Ron's pocket, but how does he know he's still with Ron and not,
say, Hermione?  How does he know he hasn't run away entirely?  
It all seems like too much for him to put together unless he 
already knows Ron has a rat and puts it together.  
Ron does carry Scabbers around in his pocket, including to class, 
it seems, so Lupin could easily have seen him anytime.  He 
wouldn't have thought anything of it.

Amy Z 





From editor at texas.net  Fri May 18 22:47:31 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:47:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldie hesitates (was: average Harry)
References: <9e0kot+na7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B05A683.B62214C5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18984

"Jenny T. Malmiola" wrote:

> One more thought; what if Lily was very powerful witch and Voldie
> wanted her to became his spouse, a queen of all the dark witches and
> wizards? (Yes, I read a lot of fairytales =) ) Voldemort wanted to
> kill Harry (not his child) and Lily could give birth to their own
> child. Lily of course said no and Voldemort said he would just kill
> Harry then. Maybe Voldemort was giving Lily final chance to change
> her mind, and that's what he meant by "she didn't have to die"?

I've still got zillions of emails to cover, so I apologize if someone
else says this, but it has been postulated that Snape-the-spy had
requested Lily for himself, as the only means he could think of to avoid
her death should Voldemort succeed in locating the Potters. Voldemort
was thus intending to give her, after he disposed of Harry, to Snape.

Alas, I did not come up with this scenario, but enough new people have
joined since the last rousing round of Snape-loved-Lily stuff that I
thought I'd toss it out.

--Amanda (he did, you know)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Fri May 18 23:37:38 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:37:38 -0000
Subject: Prophecies - Lupin visiting Black, seeing Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <9e3diu+e0ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4bo2+igqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18985

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> >Here is something I have wondered about. As long as Lupin spent at 
> >Hogwarts he never saw Scabbers. He was asleep most of the train ride 
> >but he was so close. He was friends with Harry and Ron, but never saw 
> >Scabbers. Has anyone noticed this?
> 
> I also wondered whether Lupin knows Ron has a rat, and I think he 
> probably does because he so quickly grasps what must be happening when 
> he sees Peter's name on the map.  If he didn't know HR or H had a pet 
> rat, he'd think Peter was stowing away or something.

I understood that Animagi can transform into one particular animal -
and Peter isn't the most able Animagus - so Lupin presumably knows that Peter can only do rat.  And if the map can tell who people are, anywhere in Hogwarts, it can probably tell _what_ they are, too, with coaxing - and Lupin was one of the people who made the thing.

(How on earth does the map know the names of all the students, and probably staff, who joined the school after the Marauders left?  Perhaps it's linked to the school database.  If there's a magical version of the "finger" command - )

On the other hand, Sirius Black recognised Scabbers as not just _any_ rat, from a (wizard) photograph.  Lupin presumably would have recognised him, too.  So Scabbers took good care not to be seen.

That Ron has a rat and Hermione now has a cat is such a bone of contention that they may well have mentioned it in class, but Lupin probably wouldn't think anything of it -

Only, (probable FAQ) the school rules laid down in PS (Harry's list of robes, books, etc.) say that you're allowed (optionally) an owl, a cat, or a toad, so is having a rat against the rules?  Or are you allowed only one of the animals on the list, plus as many rats, bats, or badgers as you can carry and feed?  It's not a mystery, so much as an inconsistency, and not necessarily an insuperable one.  For that matter, another boy on the train has something with long hairy legs in a box (well, we "see" one hairy leg, anyway).  Knowing cats and boxes, it could simply be a cat.

As far as Ron knows, he has a second-hand rat because his parents can't afford a new animal of the proper sort.  This probably isn't uncommon - rats certainly aren't uncommon outside of being pets - and if Lupin's heard about Scabbers, he probably just feels a bit sorry for Ron for not having a better familiar.

Robert Carnegie

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of Stupid Things Overheard)





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat May 19 00:12:05 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:12:05 -0000
Subject: Lupin on the train
In-Reply-To: <9e2bgl+iv0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4dol+f4i7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18986

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., floridian127 at y... wrote:
> You brought up a good point. Lupin could have told Dumbledore or 
the 
> MOM that Sirius was an animagus. Lupin had no reason to keep it 
from 
> Dumbledore. He could be charged with withholding information for 
not 
> telling MOM. He did find it hard to believe Sirius would betray the 
> Potters. Strange, he never visited him in azkaban and asked him 
about 
> it.    
  

I doubt that anyone would have been allowed to visit Sirius.  In GoF, 
Ch. 27 "Padfood Returns" Sirius talks about Crouch Jr. being visited 
by his parents - "That boy looked pretty sickly when he arrived.  
Crouch, being an important Ministry member, he and his wife were 
allowed a deathbed visit."

For all we know, Lupin or others (parents, friends, significant 
other) may have tried to see Sirius in Azkaban, but were not 
permitted access.

Marianne, who perversely hopes JKR brings us inside the walls of the 
prison sometime...




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat May 19 00:26:42 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:26:42 -0000
Subject: Illnesses, deaths and St Mungo's
In-Reply-To: <9e3hvu+b385@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4ek2+3lum@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18987

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > This is a question that I've been considering posting a couple of 
> > times before and I'm sorry if you already discussed it to the 
> > breaking point somewhere earlier. It's also something that's been 
> > bothering me since I started writing on my fanfiction.  
> > What about witches/wizards and illnesses? We know very little 
about 
> > this. 

> > Is it so that only magic can kill a wizard? Is it impossible for 
> them 
> > to get deathly sick unless it's a magical decease and given to 
them 
> > by another wizard? 

It's questions like these that make me long for additional volumes 
that will provide all sorts of background information on the wizard 
world.  Of course, only the truly obsessed would want all of JKR's 
background notes to the series published, which wouldn't include ANY 
of us, right?

IIRC, there have been no mentions of wizards dying of natural causes, 
other than old age (Nicolas Flamel and his wife), or am I forgetting 
something?   


 
> > And another thing- do you think that there among the wizards are 
> some 
> > more suitable to cure and heal people, like Healers, to compare 
> with 
> > Parselmouths ;-) *grin*
> 
> I think the Wizarding population uses medicinal potions the same 
way 
> and for the same reasons as we use medicinal potions (medications). 
> Granted the wizarding variety might work faster and might have 
> interesting side effects (Pepper Up Potion causes smoke to come out 
> of one's ears). 
> 
> I do think that the magical pharmaceutical companies are still 
> figuring out cures for magical maladies, such as werewolf-ism and 
the 
> madness afflicting the Longbottoms. If magic could cure 
*everything*, 
> Gilderoy Lockhart would probably have his memory back and would be 
> writing a new book "Braving the Basilisk".
> 
> Lupin tells Ron and Harry that Madame Pomphrey can mend bones 
better 
> than he. I think some magical people have a greater aptitude at 
> healing magical arts than others.
> 
Yes, but doesn't it seem like healers would also be adept at brewing 
potions?  Snape is the one who prepares the Wolfbane potion for 
Remus.  I recall that Remus tells Harry that this is a very complex 
potion and he's thankful that he's working with someone as talented 
as Snape in oreder to obtain this potion.  Granted that most healers 
are probably not dealing with lycanthropy on a regular basis, but the 
implication seems to be that healers may not have the skills to 
prepare complex, extraordinary brews.  

Marianne




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 19 00:46:15 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:46:15 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e3s3o+2q35@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4fon+cc6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18988

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> The Dementors are more or less neutral as far as allegiences go.
> They will side with whomever gives them the most of what they want, which 
> is human prey. They are currently on "our side" simply because ours 
> is the only side there is. One might assume that during the Voldemort 
> years from 1971-1981, the Dementors were in some way allied with the 
> Dark Side, but there is nothing to tell us for sure. And it's not 
> because they're "bad" -- they are what they are and they like what 
> they like, rather like a tiger isn't "bad" because he eats people. I 
> get the sense that they're version of intelligence is somewhat like 
> an animal rather than human.

According to _Fantastic Beasts_, a [magical] "being" as opposed to a
"beast" is "any [magical] creature that has sufficient intelligence to understand the laws of the magical community and to bear part of the responsibility in shaping those laws."  This of course doesn't mean that they necessarily abide by the laws.  And they're not in the Muggle edition as Beasts, but, as with the boggart, perhaps that's well-meant censorship.

Without reading GOF, I don't think I've seen Dementors speak; they apparently understand spoken English, but perhaps they don't have much to say.  Dumbledore tells the school, "It is not in the nature of a Dementor to understand pleading or excuses", which suggests, if they _do_ understand the language, that something like autism or Asperger's syndrome is their natural state of mind.  Or perhaps it's just _our_ feelings that they don't care about - other than as nutrition, that is.

They don't appear to have human wizards in charge of them; they seem to report directly to the Minister for Magic.  So I don't think they're beasts.  I think they count as people, but they're not normal people and they're not nice.

Symbolically or allegorically, they represent clinical or sub-clinical depression in JKR's personal experience.  I've been on pills myself - but that's off-topic.  I wouldn't testify that imagining that depression is due to Dementors roaming the world and preying on people is a helpful metaphor in that situation, but if JKR feels better for it, she can speak for herself.  Perhaps that's what she's doing when she has Lupin commend Harry for being more afraid of the Dementors than of anything else - for fearing fear itself - fear, perhaps, that prevents us from trying where we may succeed, just because we may fail.  It isn't an especially profound point, but it's universal.

I don't think they experience depression themselves as part of their own natural condition, or they'd be paralysed themselves.  They're just single-minded.

And in POA at least, of course, there's a hint of that simple video game where zombies or, in the implementations I know, Daleks, march mindlessly towards you from all over, hundreds of them, and you have to run away.  This one: http://www.google.com/search?q=daleks+game

Robert Carnegie

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American office
worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of Stupid Things
Overheard)





From joym999 at aol.com  Sat May 19 01:06:23 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 01:06:23 -0000
Subject: FYI, was Re: Prophecies - Lupin visiting Black, seeing Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <9e4bo2+igqm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4guf+c9d1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18989

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:

> For that matter, another boy on the train has something with long 
hairy legs in a box (well, we "see" one hairy leg, anyway).  Knowing 
cats and boxes, it could simply be a cat.

Just thought I would nitpick a little (wouldnt want to get out of 
practice).  That would be Lee Jordan, the guy with the dreadlocks and 
best friend of the Weasley twins, and his giant tarantula.

--Joywitch




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat May 19 01:41:34 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 01:41:34 -0000
Subject: Lupin on the train
In-Reply-To: <9e4dol+f4i7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4j0e+n9dc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18990

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., floridian127 at y... wrote:
> > You brought up a good point. Lupin could have told Dumbledore or 
> the 
> > MOM that Sirius was an animagus. Lupin had no reason to keep it 
> from 
> > Dumbledore. He could be charged with withholding information for 
> not 
> > telling MOM. He did find it hard to believe Sirius would betray 
the 
> > Potters. Strange, he never visited him in azkaban and asked him 
> about 
> > it.  


In the Shrieking Shack scene, Lupin says that he's wrestled with 
himeself all year over whether to tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an 
animagus.  He then says that he couldn't do it, that it meant 
admitting to Dumbledore that he'd broken the rules set down for his 
attendance at Hogwarts.   
>   
> 
> I doubt that anyone would have been allowed to visit Sirius.  In 
GoF, 
> Ch. 27 "Padfood Returns" Sirius talks about Crouch Jr. being 
visited 
> by his parents - "That boy looked pretty sickly when he arrived.  
> Crouch, being an important Ministry member, he and his wife were 
> allowed a deathbed visit."
> 
> For all we know, Lupin or others (parents, friends, significant 
> other) may have tried to see Sirius in Azkaban, but were not 
> permitted access.
> 
> Marianne, who perversely hopes JKR brings us inside the walls of 
the 
> prison sometime...


I agree with you, Marianne.  I don't think 'the lowly' would be 
allowed visits.  Fudge went to see Sirius and Arthur Weasley went to 
see ??, but they're ministry officials. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat May 19 02:23:27 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:23:27 -0700
Subject: Yet Another Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e4fon+cc6u@eGroups.com>
References: <9e3s3o+2q35@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010518192111.02f015c0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18991

During the Third Task in _GoF_, the Dementor Harry sees
is described as 12 feet tall.  Ummm... Since when are they that
tall??  And how did the one get on the train in that case?



                         -- Dave




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sat May 19 02:51:20 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Illnesses, deaths and St Mungo's
In-Reply-To: <9e4ek2+3lum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010519025120.75791.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18992

 > > 
> Yes, but doesn't it seem like healers would also be
> adept at brewing 
> potions?    
> Marianne
> 
> 

Perhaps there is a division of labor in the wizarding
world similar to the one in ours, i.e., pharmacists
produce drugs, but doctors prescribe.  Footnote:
in Greek, pharmakos means both medicine and poison. 
This seems particularly apt in the wizarding world.



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From nethilia at yahoo.com  Sat May 19 02:51:48 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:51:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tribbles, Malfoy, SI fics,  and Polyjuice potion
In-Reply-To: <990224935.15642.19119.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010519025148.15406.qmail@web3002.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18993

No, not all together. (though that woudl be a freaky
fanfic). I'm on my fifth or fourth rereading and some
questions came into my head as I was ending PoA again.


One: Earlier there was a discussion on how names are
used. I noted that Harry almost never uses Draco's
name when talking--most of the time he calls him
Malfoy, and so does JKR. I'm probably right in
thinking it's to distance us from him--I mean, it's
hard to get close to a person who's always being
refered to by last name. *ducks the various curses
being flung at her from the Draco Lovers Club*

Two: In PoA4: The Leaky Cauldron, when the Trio go
into the shop, there's a basket of "funny
custard-colored furballs that were humming loudly".
The first thing I thought about was Tribbles. Anyone
else think about that, or am I nuts? 

Three: Crouch Jr. talked about how his mother took
Polyjuice until she died. But after she died, did she
revert to herself? If so, why wasn't this noticed, and
if not, why?

four: I'm a writer and I was thinking that almost
every genre of Fanfiction has the SI character test.
Do you know if it's been written? And if not, Can I
write it? =D 

--Neth
**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus**

=====
http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. 
Two girls. 
One Website. 
Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From devika261 at aol.com  Sat May 19 03:07:22 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:07:22 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tribbles, Malfoy, SI fics,  and Polyjuice potion
Message-ID: <aa.15b03a28.28373d6a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18994

In a message dated 5/18/01 9:52:46 PM EST, nethilia at yahoo.com writes:

<< Two: In PoA4: The Leaky Cauldron, when the Trio go
 into the shop, there's a basket of "funny
 custard-colored furballs that were humming loudly".
 The first thing I thought about was Tribbles. Anyone
 else think about that, or am I nuts?  >>

You're not nuts.  That's the first thing I thought of, and I haven't watched 
Star Trek in years.  I wonder if JKR watches it (Star Wars too).
Devika :)



From devika261 at aol.com  Sat May 19 03:10:33 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:10:33 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Red Herrings
Message-ID: <37.1542d388.28373e29@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18995

In a message dated 5/18/01 2:23:15 PM EST, aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:

<< BERTHA JORKIN
 > Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?
 
 Sirius, of course!  The Hunk of Hogwarts.  ;-)
   >>
Hehehe.  Absolutely!  And his temper would have led him to hex poor meddling 
Bertha.  IIRC, there was a comment he made in GoF about her being an 
idiot...but I love him anyway <g>.
Devika :)



From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May 19 03:43:38 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:43:38 -0700
Subject: Remus on train - Words - Hermione - JKR - Voldemort - Magic - Harry  compared to Tom - more
Message-ID: <3B05EBE9.8F441D@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 18996

Amy Z wrote:
> I assumed that insofar as Remus is a plant and not just traveling
> by train because he's ill/poor, he's there to guard against Sirius.

I am not as insightful as Tim -- as soon as Harry learned (from Fudge?)
that wizards feared the criminal Sirius Black as much as Muggles did,
Tim announced: "He's a good guy." "You mean he's innocent?" I asked. Tim
answered: "I don't know if he's innocent, but he's going to be a good
guy, else Rowling wouldn't have made so much effort to make us think
he's a villain." However, I had recognized the name Sirius Black on
first seeing it in PoA, checked back in the first chapter of SS to
confirm my recollection, became convinced that there must be a back
story here, and never was as afraid of Criminal Sirius as I am of
Dementors.

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> Why couldn't Sirius have been under the Imperious Curse too?

>From what we heard from Hagrid about people who had been bewitched by
Voldemort and kind of came out of trances when he was defeated, the
Imperius Curse is broken when the person who cast it is killed, so if
Sirius HAD betrayed Potters under Voldemort's Imperius Curse, he
wouldn't have still been under Imperius Curse when he allegedly killed
all those Muggles and Peter.

R. Craig wrote:
> Of all the etymologies, "witch" is the most complicated.

I have a friend who insists that "witch" is cognate to Icelandic word
"Witka" which means a seer, and I can't remember whether the root it
comes from is "to be wise" or "to see".

A LOT OF PEOPLE wrote things about Hermione is an overachiever because
she is dependent on getting good marks and knowing stuff in order to
have self esteem. Other than being a fairly normal accusation used to
insult kids who do well in school, I suppose the evidence is near the
end of SS, where Hermione gets frantic about the need to study for
finals, something about "Don't you realize these exams are important?
Whether we get into second year depends on them!"

I admit that Hermione is is being loosely attached to reality if she
thinks there is any chance that *she*  would do badly enough on exams
not to be promoted to second years, even if she didn't study at all and
didn't get any sleep for days before taking the exam, but I believe that
Hermione didn't really mean saying that -- that JKR put those words in
Hermione's mouth as a kind of joke on parents always telling their
children how important grades are for university and career -- and we
can patch it over by saying that Hermione was just saying that in an
attempt to motivate Ron and Harry to study. Because I don't believe that
Hermione lacks confidence in her academic abilities. I believe that she
is quite confident that she can do great things in the way of
schoolwork, and has some determination to do the *best* she can, as well
as the deep curiosity about all those interesting courses that led her
to take too many classes in PoA.

Blaise wrote:
> Incidentally, if anyone has a nice up-to-date list of all the
> chats/interviews which JKR has taken part in and are to be
> found online, I'd love to see it.

Steve Vander Ark has a list of some of the chats/interviews on his
Lexicon website.

Deeblite suggested that the reason that Voldemort told Lily to "step
aside":
> could be a chivalry type thing.  He doesn't want to kill
> women unless he really needs to.  I know, Bertha Jorkins,
> but he "needed" to do that.

And "needed to kill not only Tom Riddle Sr who abandoned TMR's mother,
and Tom Sr's father, but also Tom Sr's mother? I can't imagine Voldemort
being chivalrous or gallant.

Kate qatet wrote:
> When somebody transfigures something inanimate and makes
> it a living creature (McG's desk to pig always sticks in my mind)
> have they then created a real viable creature? Does changing
> it back to a desk then constitute a murder of sorts?

I keep asking people that question. Recently, my friend Lee gave me an
answer: the animal that was created by Transfiguration from an inanimate
object doesn't have a soul (apparently to her 'soul' means both being
truly alive and being creative) and therefore only goes through the
stereotypical behaviors of that animal like audioanimatronics or a
zombie, and is not fertile. (The Dementors can eat a person's soul and
live the person a soul-less husk which is biologically alive, so there
is canon support for the possibility of a soul-less live biological
organism.) She said the exception would be that the created creature
could have a soul (and be alive and creative) if the wizard put some of
hiser own soul (life, creativity, AND ability to do magic) into it.

So if the creature created by Transfiguration is only a robot made of
meat (and we aren't?), animated rather than animate, killing it isn't
murder. Isn't even killing. So turning it back can't be murder or even
killing.

However, they have a class exercise of changing a hedgehog into a
pincushion. A hedgehog that one assumes was not created by magic for use
in class. Where does its soul go? Where does its life go? Is it murder?
Lee indicated that its soul just hangs around waiting for it to be
Transfigured back into some living being...

This is a really hard subject to discuss because all the words: animal,
inanimate, animate, animated, come from a word meaning 'soul'!

Barbara Purdom wrote:
> But the the greatest DISSIMILARITY between Harry and
> Voldemort is something that V. has  that H. does not: he uses
> his background and childhood experiences to feed his anger
> and hatred. (snip) [Harry] does not become an embittered,
> revenge-driven person, even after years of living in a closet
> under the stairs. (snip) Harry and Voldemort have very similar
> departure points, but their destinations are very different.
> THAT is what makes Harry special.

Moon (scabbers) wrote:
> It is our choices that make us what we are...  and somewhere,
> something led Tom astray, probably slowly and at first imperceptibly.

I believe, or at least suspect, some things that contradicts the freedom
of will (choice) that JKR is preaching: first, that Harry survived his
Dursley life with remarkable (altho' not total) lack of psychological
damage because Lily, powerful witch that she was, left her image in his
mind to comfort him and tell him about good values and help him resist
the Imperius Curse. Second, that Tom Jr is probably a psychopath, which
results from some kind of defective brain. Harry being blessed by his
mother's love and Tom being afflicted with a birth defect are not
examples of free will...

Nethilia De Lobo wrote:
> a basket of "funny custard-colored furballs that were
> humming loudly". The first thing I thought about was Tribbles.
> Anyone else think about that, or am I nuts?

Yes, my first thought was Tribbles. Now, of course, I know that they are
actually Puffskeins.

> But after [Mrs Crouch] died, did she revert to herself?
> If so, why wasn't this noticed, and if not, why?

IIRC, we were told that the Dementors are blind and therefore can't tell
one corpse from another.

> fur: I'm a writer and I was thinking that almost
> every genre of Fanfiction has the SI character test.

SI = Self Insertion? Meaning Mary Sue (as giving oneself a cameo can't
be worse than giving someone else a cameo)? I've seen a Mary Sue test. I
think someone posted the URL in an HPff post....

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From linman6868 at aol.com  Sat May 19 03:55:38 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 03:55:38 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e3s3o+2q35@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e4qrq+aflj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18997

Steve wrote:

 the Dementors are more or less neutral as far as allegiences go. 
They 
> will side with whomever gives them the most of what they want, 
which 
> is human prey. They are currently on "our side" simply because ours 
> is the only side there is. One might assume that during the 
Voldemort 
> years from 1971-1981, the Dementors were in some way allied with 
the 
> Dark Side, but there is nothing to tell us for sure. 

But it's the transition period after VWI that interests me the most.  
Voldemort disappears; they know Harry had something to do with it; 
they think he's pretty much gone but don't know for sure; they've 
apprehended Sirius Black and packed him off to Azkaban without a 
trial:  and the rest of the trials are now being held.  In these 
trials, the dementors seem to be treated as a given--that is, a part 
of Azkaban that everyone is used to seeing there.  So the only thing 
I can conclude is that the MoM, at some point during VWI, decided 
they needed a really strong deterrent at Azkaban and made some 
heinous treaty with some of the dementors.  When Voldemort fell, the 
rest of the dementors joined in, since there wasn't likely to be any 
better prey to be had.  Besides, it probably gratified the dementors 
to turn around and live off the souls of the Death Eaters; I mean, 
loyalty doesn't seem to be a highly-regarded concept among them.

And it's not 
> because they're "bad" -- they are what they are and they like what 
> they like, rather like a tiger isn't "bad" because he eats people. 
I 
> get the sense that they're version of intelligence is somewhat like 
> an animal rather than human.

I'd like to be able to think this well of them; but actually, I think 
animals have more soul than these guys.  For me, they fall into a 
similar category to Voldemort:  they're so evil that as creatures 
they're boring.  I think one real mark of evil is that it's devoid of 
real feeling and motive, just a mindless itch to hurt and dominate.  
Voldemort is slightly less evil than the dementors precisely because 
he is still resourceful, retains a modicum of charisma, and can still 
narrate a past.  But, since the universe is all about him, the 
universe becomes a thin, insipid thing.  Harry's universe, OTOH, is 
richly peopled, even with people he can't stand, like Snape and the 
Dursleys.

Lisa I.




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat May 19 05:24:42 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 05:24:42 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3ivr+r152@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e502q+jo4u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18998

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> Rowling leaves a number of clues in her books that foreshadow 
events 

Great post, Milz.  A few comments:

> CENTAURS: RONAN, BANE, FIRENZE
> 'One book wonders' or shall we meet again?

These guys are so ridiculously prophetic we almost have to meet them 
again.

> 
> ARAGOG
> In a way, Aragog has an issue with Voldy. Voldy exposed Aragog and 
> framed Hagrid.

I wouldnt want him in my army, no matter how nasty my enemy was.

> BUCKBEAK
> Will he have a greater role than Sirius' mode of transportation?

Maybe we will get lucky and Buckbeak will bite Draco Malfoy again, 
this time even harder.

> VIKTOR KRUM
> Good-guy? Bad-guy? Somewhere in-between?

Comic relief?

> 
> THE MCKINNONS
> Wizard family mentioned by Hagrid in SS/PS and killed during the 
> Voldy years. 

Also the Bones and the Prewitts.

> 
> DURSLEYS: PHYSICAL FEATURES AND MAGICAL INCIDENTS
> SS/PS The Dursleys are given almost animal-like physical 
> descriptions. Dudley is pig-like. Petunia with her long neck, 
blonde 
> hair, and horse-like face, is giraffe-like. Vernon is description 
is 
> reminiscent of a bull, IMO. SS, PoA, and GoF, some magical incident 
> physically affected a Dursley. Aunt Marge inflated. Dudley has had 
a 
> piggy-tail and a ton-tongue. Are the animal-like physical 
> descriptions a clue to further Dursley related magical incidents? 

I hope so; it would be very satisfying if they all got turned into 
animals and had to go live on a farm somewhere.

> 
> BERTHA JORKIN
> Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?

And who the hell is Florence, anyway?

> 
> DAEDULUS DIGGLE
> Diggle was mentioned twice in SS (akin to Mungdungus Fletcher who 
was 
> mentioned in CoS and GoF). Red flag? Red herring?

Dont we actually meet Dedalus at some point, in the Leaky Cauldron 
having a drink?

> 
> OBJECTS:
> OPAL NECKLACE (CoS, GoF)
> In Borgin and Burke's shop, there was a cursed opal necklace. 
Madame 
> Maxime wears an opal necklace in GoF. Assuming that they are the 
same 
> necklace, is the opal necklace a red flag or red herring?

Why would she wear a cursed necklace?  Did someone give it to her?  
Not a very nice present.

> 
> WIZARD CANDY
> BERTIE BOTT'S EVERY FLAVOR BEANS
> Don't know exactly why, but for some reason I don't trust their 
> presence in the books. There's something mildly sinister about them.
> CHOCOLATE FROGS
> Ditto for the frogs.

This strikes me as overly paranoid.  Evil candy?

> 
> DIVINATION/FORTUNE-TELLING CREDIBILITY
> In SS/PS, Harry tells Hermione of the Centaur's prophecies. 
Hermione 
> replies the prophecies sounded like fortune-telling, which 
McGonagall 
> says is an inaccurate magical art. In PoA, we are introduced to 
> Professor Trelawney and exposed to more of McGonagall's opinion of 
> divination. Are we being set up to believe that divination is 
> inaccurate, when it really isn't? Or is Rowling being honest with 
us 
> about the inaccuracy of divination?

I think that JKR will stick to her current position that it is all a 
bunch of nonsense, except for the very, very, occasional true 
prediction.

> PLACES:
> GODRIC'S HOLLOW
> Site of the first Voldy-Harry battle. Could it be the final 
> battleground?

And what does it have to do with Godric Gryffindor?

> 
> FORBIDDEN FOREST
> Aragog's domicile, the Flying Ford Anglia's sylvan garage. The 
> Centaurs said it held many secrets. Have we learned all of them?

Hard to believe.  The Forbidden Forest is such a great place for JKR 
to store her creatures.  It is believable that just about anything 
lives in there.  I would like to see the wild car again, myself (as 
long as it isnt wearing a hairnet.)  It is such a cool character.  
Why did it rescue Ron and Harry, anyway?

> 
> HOGWARTS CASTLE
> Magical castle with plenty of magical rooms, including one that 
Harry 
> hasn't found yet. 

Which one?  The one with the bedpans?

> THE 12 USES OF DRAGONS BLOOD
> Will they come in handy?

Maybe someone will need to clean their oven?
> 
> POLYJUICE POTION
> PJP has been used twice in the series. Will it rear its ugly head 
> again?

nope. enough with the Polyjuice already.

--Joywitch




From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Sat May 19 06:31:11 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:31:11 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin on the train
Message-ID: <20010519052008.8E1ED12F2A@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 18999

Hello all

In the discussion about Lupin knows that Ron has a rat or not, remember that 
the story arc is a full year, how many convesations between Lupin and the kids 
havent we seen (heard). At any time could Ron have mentioned Scabbers, and 
granted, JKR usually gives such clues away, but maybe this was just the time 
she didnt.

Darreder

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com =====
>Lupin would have recognized Scabbers immediately if he actually saw
>him. Sirius recognized him from a picture in the paper. Lupin sees a
>lump in Ron's pocket and thinks 'so, Ron has a rat, no big deal.' but
>when he sees Peter on the map... CLICK
>
>Dumbledore could have heard or simply asked 'Harry, do you like
>riding the Express?' 'Where did you usually sit?' Then he puts Lupin
>in the most likely spot Harry would go.
>
>Bugg
>
>
>
>Milz wrote:
>> I've subscribed to the idea that Dumbledore had Lupin ride the
>Express to Hogwarts in the event that Sirius Black should try to
>harm Harry en route. I'm not so sure how much of a coincidence it
>was that Harry, Ron and Hermione shared the compartment with Lupin.
>
>
>Amy Wrote:
>> Strange, he never visited him in azkaban and asked him about it.
>That might have cleared up a lot of problems, huh?  (And ruined a
>fantastic story.)  I get the sense prisoners in Azkaban aren't
>allowed too many visitors.  As soon as we get Fudge out of the
>MOM and get this little Voldemort skirmish out of the way, let's
>institute some prison reform.  Sirius Black for chief of Magical
>Law Enforcement!
>
>>I also wondered whether Lupin knows Ron has a rat, and I think
>he probably does because he so quickly grasps what must be
>happening when he sees Peter's name on the map.  If he didn't
>know HR or H had a pet rat, he'd think Peter was stowing away or
>something.  Also, once in the Shrieking Shack, he doesn't see
>Scabbers until he asks Ron to take him out:
>He had stopped his pacing, his eyes moving over Ron.
>"Do you think I could have a look at the rat?" he said evenly. .
>Ron hesitated, then put a hand inside his robes.  Scabbers
>emerged, thrashing desperately . . . (PA 17)
>
>>From what he saw on the map, it made sense to think Peter was rat
>in Ron's pocket, but how does he know he's still with Ron and not,
>say, Hermione?  How does he know he hasn't run away entirely?
>It all seems like too much for him to put together unless he
>already knows Ron has a rat and puts it together.
>Ron does carry Scabbers around in his pocket, including to class,
>it seems, so Lupin could easily have seen him anytime.  He
>wouldn't have thought anything of it.
>
>Amy Z
>
>
>
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>
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>Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your 
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From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Sat May 19 06:39:13 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:39:13 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tribbles, Malfoy, SI fics,  and Polyjuice potion
Message-ID: <20010519052809.D957C12F2A@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19000

Hey Neth..

>Three: Crouch Jr. talked about how his mother took
>Polyjuice until she died. But after she died, did she
>revert to herself? If so, why wasn't this noticed, and
>if not, why?

The dementors are blind, and cannot see the body. Considering the other 
prisoners, well perhaps the funeral was held very quickly after her death. 
That would make good sense to me. After all, why would the dementors keep a 
dead (=not food) person long in his/her cell after death?

>--Neth
>**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus**

Darreder

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From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sat May 19 09:21:10 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:21:10 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3sol+rdp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e5du6+mdbs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19001


> > 
> > BERTHA JORKIN
> > Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?
> 
> Sirius, of course!  The Hunk of Hogwarts.  ;-)
>  
I'll second that!!  (Steve, can we have Florence added to the list of 
all Hogwarts students in the lexicon please?)

> > FORBIDDEN FOREST
> > Aragog's domicile, the Flying Ford Anglia's sylvan garage. The 
> > Centaurs said it held many secrets. Have we learned all of them?
> 
The 3 headed dog is supposed to be in there somewhere too.

LEVIFOLDS
I'm sure one of these will show up - why else do they get such a long 
entry in FB, and coupled with Harry's patronus skills...

CROOKSHANKS
His kneazle abilities are likely to come in again, but I suspect it 
will be the guiding its owner saftly home, rather than (or as well as) 
sniffing out unsavoury characters.

RON
Will he be the victim of imperious?

Florence





From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sat May 19 09:28:50 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:28:50 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e4fon+cc6u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e5eci+6g86@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19002


> Without reading GOF, I don't think I've seen Dementors speak; they 
apparently understand spoken English, but perhaps they don't have much 
to say.  Dumbledore tells the school, "It is not in the nature of a 
Dementor to understand pleading or excuses", which suggests, if they 
_do_ understand the language, that something like autism or Asperger's 
syndrome is their natural state of mind.  

I think they must be able to speak or communicate somehow, because 
otherwise how do Fudge and Dumbledore learn that one was trying to 
administer the kiss to Harry in PoA?  Harry was the only non-dementor 
witness to this.

Florence




From deeblite at home.com  Sun May 20 03:29:36 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:29:36 -0400
Subject: HP Video Game news
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010519232800.00a32170@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19003

http://www.e3daily.com/custom/newsfeed.cvn?viewall=1
How important is young master Harry Potter to Electronic Arts? Very, 
considering that about a quarter of EA?s (E3) booth this year is dedicated 
to promoting the Harry Potter and the Sorcerer?s Stone games that the 
company is developing. EA is aiming to ship games for four platforms 
day-and-date with the Warner Bros. movie due Nov. 16. PS one, PC, and Game 
Boy Advance systems will get an adventure-themed Potter game, while Game 
Boy Color will receive an RPG.
Playable versions of all the Harry Potter games are on-hand and drawing a 
diverse crowd. Although hearing what members of the development team had to 
say about the game was difficult due to the many high-definition TVs 
showing clips from the movie, one thing was clear: Harry Potter knows how 
to draw a crowd.?George T. Chronis




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sat May 19 16:09:16 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 16:09:16 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3ivr+r152@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e65rc+37h8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19004


Milz, that was a really awesome post. As someone relatively new to HP, 
I'm consistently amazed at all the little things that keep popping 
up...

> CENTAURS: RONAN, BANE, FIRENZE
> 'One book wonders' or shall we meet again?

<huge grin> I hope so! Another author, Tanya Huff, has centaurs in one 
of her books and its hysterical. Centaurs are so stoical and 
humorless, that they're hilarious!

> LETHIFOLD
> Mentioned in "Fantastic Beasts". It kills wizards and witches. The 
> only thing that can stop it is the Patronus. Will one be sent to Ron 
> or Hermione (since they haven't mastered the Patronus yet?) Will one 
> be sent to Harry?

Mph, methinks I need to read FB and QTTA. I'm such a lazy HP fan...

> VIKTOR KRUM
> Good-guy? Bad-guy? Somewhere in-between?

Hm, I never thought about this. Quite frankly, I don't see him as 
having a particular affiliation. I have a *real* hard time seeing him 
as a bad-guy. I just figure anyone who likes Hermione can't be all 
bad!

> HOGWARTS STUDENTS: MUGGLE-BORNS, HALF-MUGGLES, PURE-BLOODS
> The Muggle-borns seem to get most of the Slytherin-minded attention. 
> But, Ginny Weasley's possession by Tom Riddle's Diary showed that 
> the pure-bloods aren't really "safe" (Cedric seemed to come from a 
> wizarding family too). When all is said and done, are the 
> Pure-bloods more high-risk than the Muggle-borns or half-Muggles?

I don't think any one "group" is more at risk than any other. It's all 
dependant in situations and the will of the person involved. 

> THE SNEAKOSCOPE
> When last we heard of it, it was in Harry's trunk (GoF)

I wish Harry would pay more attention to it instead of keeping it in 
a stinky sock (Ew!) in his trunk! I mean, he got it as a present from 
Ron, you'd think that he would at least bring it out once in awhile 
for politeness sake.

> THE PHOTO ALBUM
> Hagrid sent owls to James and Lily's school friends for photos. 
> Harry notices Sirius in the wedding photos. Any other friends/foes
> lurking about in them? Will Harry met these school friends?

I've always wondered about this. You'd think that friends of Lily and 
James would *want* to see their child! And you'd think Harry would be 
infinitely curious about these school friends! I know I would be! 
(Whoa, look at all my exclamation marks!)

> DIVINATION/FORTUNE-TELLING CREDIBILITY
> Are we being set up to believe that divination is 
> inaccurate, when it really isn't? Or is Rowling being honest with us 
> about the inaccuracy of divination?

Personally, I think she's being honest. I don't know much about 
divination but I do know that it's tricky. I mean, it's difficult to 
look at the signs from the future and interpret them correctly. 
Valuable information to make them understandable is often no there 
yet.
 
> TRELAWNEY'S PREDICTIONS
> Is the Christmas Dinner prediction a red flag or 
> a red herring? Will Ron and Harry be the only survivors of those 
> seated at the table? Will Ron and Harry cause a death?

<sighs heavily> I pray that Ron, Hermione, and Harry survive. I hope 
Harry survives because...well...he's the main hero of the book. I hope 
that Ron and Hermione survive because I love them both dearly for some 
reason. (Strange that I actively like Ron and Hermione better 
than Harry) Although, it's extremely likely that one will have to lay 
down their life; I mean, big battle against Dark wizard usually means 
scads and scads of people dying.

> POLYJUICE POTION
> PJP has been used twice in the series. Will it rear its ugly head 
> again?

Let me chime in with countless others and say that if I see PJP again, 
I'll probably groan. I'm sick of the stuff.

Again, thank you Milz for the thought-provoking post!

~Amber





From margdean at erols.com  Sat May 19 15:36:02 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:36:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yet Another Dementor Puzzle
References: <9e3s3o+2q35@eGroups.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010518192111.02f015c0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3B0692E2.8B9000B1@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19005

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> 
> During the Third Task in _GoF_, the Dementor Harry sees
> is described as 12 feet tall.  Ummm... Since when are they that
> tall??  And how did the one get on the train in that case?

Isn't that a boggart-Dementor?  As the embodiment of Harry's
fears, it makes a certain amount of sense for it to be larger
than life.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 19 16:29:48 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 16:29:48 -0000
Subject: Another Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e4788+urd9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e671s+kg49@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19006

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Another minor question about Dementors - how do they communicate
> with wizards?  They never speak [in POA or GOF], although it has
> not been explicitly stated that they are nonverbal. Are they able
> to converse, but choose not to unless it is necessary?  Can they
> read minds? (since they can suck happy thoughts out of a person,
> it would seem that telepathy would not be beyond them). Or do they
> have their own unique idiom (it would have to be simpler than
> Bulgarian) that must be used to converse with them?

On reflection, I'll guess that they probably do talk, but not much.
Sign language is out because they don't have eyes in POA, although
ears weren't mentioned so they could click their fingers in Morse
code, or something.  But remember Sirius Black - "The guards say he's
been talking in his sleep" - although that "say" might not be meant
literally.

I wonder whether Dementors turn their victims into Dementors - I've
been looking at Sirius Black in POA for signs.  They must come from
somewhere - if they don't have families and bring up children (they
can't be proper scary monsters if they have families), they could lay
eggs and abandon them, or they might all have been created by an evil
wizard - does GOF answer that?  If Dementors were originally humans
and were transformed, they presumably have whatever language they
started out with.  But if that's where new Dementors come from, they
don't have a soul.  As they're civil servants, maybe they don't miss it.

In any case, their costume and their stage presence are broadly the
same as the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in Charles Dickens's
_A Christmas Carol_, and that was effective too.  A human monster
that doesn't talk is scarier, and so is a non-human monster (a giant
spider, say) that does.  And _that_, I suggest, is why JKR doesn't
let the Dementors speak.

T-shirts under the robes with a magic slogan that changes to whatever
they want to say - "We went to Hogwarts and all I got was this lousy
Animagus" - are probably out, too, as is mobile phone text messaging
- although Azkaban perpetually resounding with hundreds of different
"musical" ring tones, would truly be a place of damnation and dementia.

Robert Carnegie

"Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas" - Peter Pettigrew (not really)





From editor at texas.net  Sat May 19 20:50:09 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:50:09 -0500
Subject: Chess Flint?
Message-ID: <3B06DC81.EAEB6805@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19007

Rejoice with me! My husband has finished book 1! And true to form, he of
course found something that I could not answer. [I've been on the group
a while, and I don't think I've seen this mentioned, but I don't catch
everything--apologies if it's known and/or discussed already.]

It's in the chess game at the end of the book.

<begin quote>
    'We're not offended,' said Harry quickly. 'Just tell us what to do.'

    'Well, Harry, you take the place of that bishop, and Hermione, you
go next to him instead of that castle.'
    'What about you?'
    'I'm going to be a knight,' said Ron.
<end quote>
p. 282, SS

Jan's observation was that on a chessboard, the bishop is not next to
the castle. The lineup is
[castle]-[knight]-[bishop]-[K/Q]-[K/Q]-[bishop]-[knight]-[castle].
Jan said that it sounded as though Ron's directions have it
[castle]-[bishop]-[knight], if Hermione-the-castle is next to
Harry-the-bishop. But on neither end are bishops next to castles.

I pointed out that Hermione could have been standing toward the other
end of the lineup, so that Ron was saying for her to take the castle
nearest to Harry, instead of at the other end. This sounded weak,
though, even to chess-unsavvy me. Any thoughts? Has he spotted a Flint?

--Amanda




From aasta2000 at yahoo.com  Sat May 19 22:33:31 2001
From: aasta2000 at yahoo.com (aasta2000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 22:33:31 -0000
Subject: Yet Another Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010518192111.02f015c0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9e6sbr+pfua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19008

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> During the Third Task in _GoF_, the Dementor Harry sees
> is described as 12 feet tall.  Ummm... Since when are they that
> tall??  And how did the one get on the train in that case?
> 

Wasn't that a boggart? It stumbled, and Harry realized what it was...



      --Aasta






From rick824 at webtv.net  Sat May 19 22:38:35 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 22:38:35 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <3B06DC81.EAEB6805@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9e6slb+108m8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19009

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Rejoice with me! My husband has finished book 1! And true to form, he of
> course found something that I could not answer. [I've been on the group
> a while, and I don't think I've seen this mentioned, but I don't catch
> everything--apologies if it's known and/or discussed already.]
> 
> It's in the chess game at the end of the book.
> 
> <begin quote>
>     'We're not offended,' said Harry quickly. 'Just tell us what to do.'
> 
>     'Well, Harry, you take the place of that bishop, and Hermione, you
> go next to him instead of that castle.'
>     'What about you?'
>     'I'm going to be a knight,' said Ron.
> <end quote>
> p. 282, SS
> 
> Jan's observation was that on a chessboard, the bishop is not next to
> the castle. The lineup is
> [castle]-[knight]-[bishop]-[K/Q]-[K/Q]-[bishop]-[knight]-[castle].
> Jan said that it sounded as though Ron's directions have it
> [castle]-[bishop]-[knight], if Hermione-the-castle is next to
> Harry-the-bishop. But on neither end are bishops next to castles.
> 
> I pointed out that Hermione could have been standing toward the other
> end of the lineup, so that Ron was saying for her to take the castle
> nearest to Harry, instead of at the other end. This sounded weak,
> though, even to chess-unsavvy me. Any thoughts? Has he spotted a Flint?
> 
> --Amanda 

  Whats a Flint?... Rick




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat May 19 22:47:20 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 22:47:20 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9e6slb+108m8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e6t5o+dics@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19010


Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
Any thoughts? Has he spotted a Flint?
 
rick824 at w... wrote: 
   Whats a Flint?... Rick

Rick, I believe that a "flint" is a mistake by JK (ie.Marcus 
Flint's "extra" year).

Claire




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sat May 19 22:57:48 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 22:57:48 -0000
Subject: Illnesses, deaths and St Mungo's
In-Reply-To: <20010519025120.75791.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e6tpc+ngco@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19011

I believe that only magic can kill a wizard. If you remember, in 
PS/SS, Hagrid says something about (sorry, PS currently on loan) "A 
car crash kill Lily and James Potter? It would take more than 
that..." sorry....REALLY bad memory...
ANYWAY, here's my point, I believe that only strong witches and 
wizards can only killed by magic. Hagrid suggests that lily and James 
were so strong that they would survive a potentially fatal (well, 
potentially fatal to a muggle) car crash. Anyways, its late, I'm 
sleepy. Sorry if i'm talking complete Gobbeldegook,

Claire




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Sat May 19 23:02:00 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:02:00 -0000
Subject: Lupin on the train
In-Reply-To: <9e2bgl+iv0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e6u18+84pt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19012

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
True, he had no way of knowing
> > that Harry would end up in his compartment but that can be 
> overcome. 
> > Once the train started, Lupin could walk up and down the corridor,
> > meeting and greeting.  

Actually, Harry and Co. unloaded their stuff and then got back off 
the train to say good -bye to the Weasleys.  From Poa,  The Dementor 
(pg. 72, Amer. ed.):
"Once the remaining Weasleys and Hermione had joined them, Harry and 
ROn led the way to the end of the train, passed the packed 
compartments, to a carriage that looked quite empty.  They loaded the 
trunks onto it, stowed Hedwig and Crookshanks in the luggage rack, 
then went back outside to say goodbye to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley."

So, Lupin could've seen Harry (and he'd probably recognize him 
immediately since he looks so much like James -- though, of course, 
I'd put my money on that Lupin has seen Harry plenty, as one of 
the "Old Crowd" who would know Mrs. Figg and had been in the 
Dursley's neighborhood) go into that partiular compartment and 
stationed his sleeping self and tattered old suitcase there.

Stephanie  




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Sat May 19 23:16:07 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:16:07 -0000
Subject: Illnesses, deaths and St Mungo's
In-Reply-To: <9e6tpc+ngco@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e6urn+ngvb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19013

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> I believe that only magic can kill a wizard.  <snip> Hagrid 
suggests that lily and James 
> were so strong that they would survive a potentially fatal (well, 
> potentially fatal to a muggle) car crash. Anyways, its late, I'm 
> sleepy. Sorry if i'm talking complete Gobbeldegook,

How fast do you think you can disapparate?  Seems to me if you're 
magical, and you realize your car is speeding toward a cliff, you 
could just disapparte out of there.  Or, why wouldn't you just put an 
anti-crash spell on the car -- the Knight Bus sure seems to have 
one.  Wizards don't even know what guns are, I remember someone 
calling them "a kind of wand that Muggles use to kill each other," 
which suggests to me that they are useless in the magical world.  
Anyway, the point is, I totally agree with you Claire.
Stephanie




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun May 20 00:15:26 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:15:26 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3ivr+r152@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e72au+uk1l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19014

I'm going to save the other red flags/ red herrings to see if the 
remaining books address them. So keep posting them.

Evil wizard candy: I don't think they are "Evil" per se, but I have a 
bad feeling about the Frogs and the Beans (especially the Beans). In 
PoA, Snape threatened Harry with drugging Harry's pumpkin juice with 
Verita Serum. In CoS, Hermione drugged the chocolate cakes with PJP 
(Polyjuice Potion). One of the books states that the Beans are 
Harry's favorite wizard candy. It won't be too surprizing if someone 
were to drug a Bean (they are every flavor afterall) with someone 
more potent than PJP. 

Divination's Credibility: So far there have been a few correct 
predictions, the Centaur's prophecies, Trelawney's Voldy is Rising 
prediction and her Hermione prediction (Okay, I know an argument can 
be made that Trelawney DIDN'T know it was Hermione, but I still 
consider it a correct prophecy. I even consider the Parvati-red 
haired man predicition to be true because Ron put a damper on things 
for Padma, Harry, and her). However we still get the impression that 
divination isn't very credible. It events in the books contradict the 
opinion about divination, imo. That's why I can see Rowling either 
leading us down the garden path or being very honest about divination.

Florence: I agree who *is* Florence? I had a feeling Snape was the 
one Bertha caught with Florence. Which makes the question "Who is 
Florence?" even more intriguing (or is Rowling just messing with us?)

The Photo Album: lol at Amy Z's comments. Seriously though, who ARE 
these schoolmates? We know Sirius and Peter weren't among the photo 
senders. We've heard of James' school friends. But what about Lily's? 
Which leads to....

Harry's God-Mother: Usually god-parents come in pairs. Did/does he 
even have one? If so, what happened to her?

Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun May 20 00:18:52 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:18:52 -0000
Subject: HP Video Game news
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010519232800.00a32170@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9e72hc+4rhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19015

This is the URL to the TIME Magazine supplement discussing the EA 
game. Unfortunately, it doesn't include the pictures of the graphics 
that the printed magazine had.

http://www.onmagazine.com/on-
mag/magazine/article/0,9985,108088,00.html

Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun May 20 00:22:29 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:22:29 -0000
Subject: Tribbles, Malfoy, SI fics,  and Polyjuice potion
In-Reply-To: <20010519025148.15406.qmail@web3002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e72o5+2uqf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19016

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Nethilia De Lobo <nethilia at y...> wrote:
> 
> Two: In PoA4: The Leaky Cauldron, when the Trio go
> into the shop, there's a basket of "funny
> custard-colored furballs that were humming loudly".
> The first thing I thought about was Tribbles. Anyone
> else think about that, or am I nuts? 
> 

No, you're not nuts. I had the same impression too. But the creatures 
are mentioned in "Fantastic Beasts". They are "puffskeins". Furry, 
purry creatures that eat, ummm, nasal mucus. They are a popular 
wizard children pet.

Milz




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sun May 20 00:28:30 2001
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellie Rosenthal)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:28:30 -0000
Subject: Tribbles, Malfoy, SI fics,  and Polyjuice potion
In-Reply-To: <20010519025148.15406.qmail@web3002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e733e+3gu5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19017

By SI character, do you mean "Self Insertion" tests? If so, the 
answer is yes. I wrote one a while back. If you want to read it, it 
can be found on the Writers University:

http://writersu.s5.com/history/msl03.html

Ellie

Neth said:
> 
> four: I'm a writer and I was thinking that almost
> every genre of Fanfiction has the SI character test.
> Do you know if it's been written? And if not, Can I
> write it? =D 




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 00:58:58 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 17:58:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <3B06DC81.EAEB6805@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010520005858.76447.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19018

Amanda wrote:
 
> I pointed out that Hermione could have been standing
> toward the other
> end of the lineup, so that Ron was saying for her to
> take the castle
> nearest to Harry, instead of at the other end. This
> sounded weak,
> though, even to chess-unsavvy me. Any thoughts? Has
> he spotted a Flint?
> 

Sorry!  A Flint?  Am I too new to know what this is?

-Barb 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 01:02:30 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 01:02:30 -0000
Subject: random thoughts of a gardener
Message-ID: <9e7537+53kp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19019

So today, I was working in the garden and I was thinking.  And you 
know how it is when you're gardening, you think about all kinds of 
crazy stuff
  

1. Cheering Charms.  Is it okay to put a cheering charm on yourself?  
Why not just put a cheering charm on yourself all the time.  Seems to 
me a cheering charm is really just a big fat magic Doobie.  Lucky 
they have lunch right after Charms.  BTW, I am NOT one of those 
people who thinks HP teaches kids to use drugs.
2. Magic Babies.  If I'm a witch and know how to brew a sleeping 
draught, is it okay to use it on a baby?    Joywitch's Poopus 
Gowayus ? the Teletubbies toilet spell ? how about one to get their 
feet to stop moving when you're trying to jam on those teeny-weeny 
socks?  And can they do things back to you?  Can they magic off their 
diaper if they don't want to wear it?  Can they force you to hold 
them all the time?  
(2a. The Durselys.  I've had to convince myself that Dumbledore 
bewitched Harry so that he didn't need rocked at night, and was 
particularly good at feeding himself so that he was an easy toddler 
and didn't really need the Durselys too much.  It's the only way I 
can cope with them.)
3. Hogwarts Food.  Very old fashioned.  Why don't they ever get pizza 
or pasta?  And have you noticed all the bacon? 
4. Animagi.  I reckon that most people become the animal that they 
most closely resemble(Peter is described as having beady rat-like 
eyes, Sirius has got that shaggy black hair.) ? their animal spirit, 
to draw on Native American religious philosophy.  (Oh Lord, that 
would make me a poodle, shudder.)  Do they also retain little 
animalisms in human form?  Does Sirius forget and try to scratch his 
ear with his leg?  (And I know this is different but,) Does Lupin 
like his steaks really rare?  Does McGonagall jump up on the desk and 
stick her butt in people's faces?
5. Neville.  You know how JKR says that one of the kids is going to 
be a Professor at the end?  My money is on Neville ? Herbology.  (I 
said I was gardening.)
6. Mandrakes.  Hilarious.  But it made me kind of queasy that they 
were so human-like and got sliced up.
7. My Wand.  If  I were a witch, I would keep my wand stuck in my 
hair bun.  It's were keep my pencils, much handier than a pocket or 
belt and more of a fashion statement too.
8. Magic and Nature.  And this one is serious.  But I've not got it 
totally worked out yet.  Somehow, magic is a part of pure nature and 
technology that Muggles use is extremely perverted and that why it 
doesn't work around powerfully magical people or in very  magically 
charged places.  Because technology is unnatural.  Thoughts are 
swirling in my head, I can't quite reach them
.  Grasp Grasp
.

Excuse me, I have to go read some Thoreau now.  (And NO Unibomber 
jokes, please).
Stephanie
  





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 01:03:19 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9e6t5o+dics@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010520010319.41792.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19020


--- Claire Weale <clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Any thoughts? Has he spotted a Flint?
>  
> rick824 at w... wrote: 
>    Whats a Flint?... Rick
> 
> Rick, I believe that a "flint" is a mistake by JK
> (ie.Marcus 
> Flint's "extra" year).
> 
> Claire
> 
Oops.  Should have read all my mail before I asked. 
But I do think I have a possible explanation for the
chess situation.  Perhaps the real problem with
getting past McGonagall's chess set is that the pieces
were already arranged in such a manner that only a
grand master could have worked out how to win.  If the
pieces weren't in the starting position, this would
explain the odd placement of the bishop and castle
whose roles Harry and Hermione played.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Sun May 20 02:02:10 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:02:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Red Herrings
References: <9e72au+uk1l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B0725A2.6AF6693F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19021

Milz wrote:

> In CoS, Hermione drugged the chocolate cakes with PJP
> (Polyjuice Potion).

Small nit to pick. She drugged the cakes with a sleeping potion, I
believe, in order to get Crabbe and Goyle out of the way so that she,
Harry, and Ron could do the Polyjuice Potion. She didn't put the
Polyjuice in the cakes.

> Harry's God-Mother: Usually god-parents come in pairs. Did/does he
> even have one? If so, what happened to her?

Good question, but it's been pretty well established that they don't
*have* to come in pairs. I wanted my best friend to be my daughter's
godmother, but she was unattached. I picked a male friend of my
husband's as godfather, purely for symmetrical reasons, but there was no
requirement that there be more than my friend.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aasta2000 at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 03:12:07 2001
From: aasta2000 at yahoo.com (aasta2000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 03:12:07 -0000
Subject: Peter
Message-ID: <9e7cm7+o22g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19022

Why didn't Sirius or Lupin stun Peter in PoA when they were taking 
him up to the castle? They knew he would run off, given the chance. 
Is it an honor issue? "Don't knock out someone who is defenseless and 
already under control" or something like that?

     --Aasta






From devika261 at aol.com  Sun May 20 03:30:31 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:30:31 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Red Herrings--Lily's friends
Message-ID: <5a.15d454a5.28389457@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19023

In a message dated 5/19/01 7:20:12 PM EST, absinthe at mad.scientist.com writes:

<< The Photo Album: lol at Amy Z's comments. Seriously though, who ARE 
 these schoolmates? We know Sirius and Peter weren't among the photo 
 senders. We've heard of James' school friends. But what about Lily's? 
 Which leads to....
 
 Harry's God-Mother: Usually god-parents come in pairs. Did/does he 
 even have one? If so, what happened to her? >>

That's one of the first things I thought of when I found out that Sirius was 
Harry's godfather.  Even though Harry doesn't *have* to have a godmother, IMO 
that would make things more interesting.  And even if Harry doesn't have a 
godmother, I would still like to know who Lily's friends were.  Or was she 
like Hermione in that she didn't have any close female friends and only made 
friends with James and the other marauders?  I think this lack of information 
about Lily may be intentional because so few things in these books seem to be 
put there (or left out) randomly.  I've got plenty of theories, but I don't 
have any proof for any of them--any ideas?
Devika



From devika261 at aol.com  Sun May 20 03:42:48 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:42:48 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
Message-ID: <ca.1546bac9.28389738@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19024

In a message dated 5/19/01 8:04:10 PM EST, blpurdom at yahoo.com writes:

<< Oops.  Should have read all my mail before I asked. 
 But I do think I have a possible explanation for the
 chess situation.  Perhaps the real problem with
 getting past McGonagall's chess set is that the pieces
 were already arranged in such a manner that only a
 grand master could have worked out how to win.  If the
 pieces weren't in the starting position, this would
 explain the odd placement of the bishop and castle
 whose roles Harry and Hermione played.
  >>
IIRC, Harry, Ron, and Hermione took the place of the black players, and Ron 
pointed out the fact that white would move first.  That would imply that the 
pieces were in the starting position.  

Amanda wrote:
<>

I think that could be right.  Ron could just have been specifying which 
castle Hermione should be, which would make sense regardless of which side 
she was standing on.
:)  Devika



From devika261 at aol.com  Sun May 20 03:52:06 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:52:06 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chess Flint?
Message-ID: <6f.158ed046.28389966@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19025

Hmmm...something strange happened with my last email and it didn't seem to 
paste what I wanted it to paste.  Sorry about that.  I'll give you what I 
meant to say in the second part so it makes more sense. 

In a message dated 5/19/01 3:51:52 PM EST, editor at texas.net writes:

<<  pointed out that Hermione could have been standing toward the other
 end of the lineup, so that Ron was saying for her to take the castle
 nearest to Harry, instead of at the other end. This sounded weak,
 though, even to chess-unsavvy me. Any thoughts?  >>

I think that could be right.  Ron could just have been specifying which 
castle Hermione should be, which would make sense regardless of which side 
she was standing on.
:)  Devika



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun May 20 04:26:40 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:26:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <20010520010319.41792.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9e6t5o+dics@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010519211409.02fbbd80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19026

At 06:03 PM 5/19/01 -0700, Barbara Purdom wrote:
>Perhaps the real problem with
>getting past McGonagall's chess set is that the pieces
>were already arranged in such a manner that only a
>grand master could have worked out how to win.

Possibly McGonnegal (and Ron) have read the book _The Complete
Chess Addict_, which on page 206 describes "Reverso" chess, a
variation in which the bishop and knight's starting positions are reversed...
The idea being that even if John Q. Death Eater is a Grandmaster, he
would be thwarted, because now all conventional opening theory is
down Moaning Myrtle's toilet.  (Unfortunately, it looks like Voldy read
the book too.)

Now if only someone would tell how it can be that a superlative
player like Ron is still calling the rooks "castles"...  :)



                         -- Dave




From natabat at crosswinds.net  Sun May 20 04:50:24 2001
From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie)
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:50:24 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
References: <9e6t5o+dics@eGroups.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010519211409.02fbbd80@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c0e0e8$62bd9500$0101a8c0@hp>

No: HPFGUIDX 19027


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hardenbrook" <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?


<snip>

> Now if only someone would tell how it can be that a superlative
> player like Ron is still calling the rooks "castles"...  :)

Ahh, but just because Ron knows they're called rooks doesn't mean Harry and
Hermione know it too. Think about it--when you're explaining chess to
rookies, you don't call rooks rooks until they get the hang of it.

>                          -- Dave


Natalie
natabat at crosswinds.net
http://www.natabat.barrysworld.net
-----
Never fear shadows. They just mean that a light is shining somewhere nearby.





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 20 05:03:28 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 05:03:28 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010519211409.02fbbd80@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9e7j70+od82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19028

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
 
> the book _The Complete Chess Addict_, which on page 206 
> describes "Reverso" chess, 
> The idea being that even if John Q. Death Eater is a Grandmaster, 
> he would be thwarted, because now all conventional opening theory 
> is down Moaning Myrtle's toilet. 

> (Unfortunately, it looks like Voldy read the book too.)

Could Voldy have gotten through the chess game by cheating? He could 
maybe have cast Paralysis Charms on the opposing chessmen, 
Transfigured them from their former selves into Pawns, Charmed them 
all from White to Black so that they would be on his side .... I am 
thinking that McGonagall put something in her spell to keep it from 
being changed, but Voldy was a strong enough wizard to overpower it.

It might have been simpler for him to simply remove the spell that 
McGonagall had put on them (Finite Incantatem), but then they 
wouldn't have been an obstacle to our Trio.




From violina23 at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 05:04:35 2001
From: violina23 at yahoo.com (violina23 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 05:04:35 -0000
Subject: Harry as a martyr? [was Re: Average Harry]
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010517194455.00c55c90@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9e7j93+oa5i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19029

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 09:12 PM 5/17/01 -0400, dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:
> >Perhaps they are both hanging off a cliff, no wands, and the only 
way 
> >Voldy is going
> >to fall is for Harry to fall as well. ::::shudders::::: I don't 
know if I
> >like that so well.....
> 
> Nah... Too Sherlock Holmes.  :)
> 

Well, a good possibility is the whole idea where Harry may CHOOSE to 
sacrifice his own life to save the rest of the word from Voldemort's 
horrors, but may, by other magical circumstances that Harry typically 
does not understand until the speech afterwards, survive anyhow. This 
way, his character is preserved by doing the right thing & willing to 
give his life, without the media horror of Harry actually dying.

It would probably feel like a cop-out to many people, but unless she 
handles it in an incredibly spiritual manner to make things 
feel "right", I don't think Harry will die.

Back to Lurking,
Heather :-)




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May 20 05:18:54 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 05:18:54 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <20010520010319.41792.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e7k3u+67e8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19030

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> Oops.  Should have read all my mail before I asked. 
> But I do think I have a possible explanation for the
> chess situation.  Perhaps the real problem with
> getting past McGonagall's chess set is that the pieces
> were already arranged in such a manner that only a
> grand master could have worked out how to win.  If the
> pieces weren't in the starting position, this would
> explain the odd placement of the bishop and castle
> whose roles Harry and Hermione played.
****************************************
Nope, sorry. The chess pieces were set up at the beginning of a game:

    "White always plays first in chess," said Ron, peering across
the board. "Yes... look..."

Doreen
****************************************




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May 20 05:21:25 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 05:21:25 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <6f.158ed046.28389966@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9e7k8l+a1p9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19031

I know what a "flint" is ... but why is it called a "flint"?

Doreen




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun May 20 08:39:23 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 08:39:23 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9e7k8l+a1p9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e7vrr+usl9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19032

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I know what a "flint" is ... but why is it called a "flint"?
> 
> Doreen

Because the most obvious mistake JKR ever made, was putting Marcus 
Flint in the 6th year in PS - and he is still there as captain of the 
Slytherin Quidditch team in PoA, when he should have left the school 
by then.  So mistakes are now referred to as "Flints."

BTW: re the chess.  Seeing as this has come up, there is another line 
I noticed which doesn't make sense:

Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me - "

and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen pounced."

I know this is probably just figure of speech, but it has always 
annoyed me - Ron is a Knight, and they don't move forward one step at 
a time - they move 3 forward, 1 across.  So another flint, or 
imprecise language?  Or am I just being too nitpicky?

Catherine




From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 10:18:00 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (captain_debrowe at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:18:00 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e5eci+6g86@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e85ko+p3iu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19033

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> I think they must be able to speak or communicate somehow, because 
> otherwise how do Fudge and Dumbledore learn that one was trying to 
> administer the kiss to Harry in PoA?  Harry was the only non-
dementor 
> witness to this.
> 
> Florence

I'm new to the list but I felt I need to add my two cents.  Actually 
if you remember Snape woke up (he'd been knocked out by all the kids 
hitting him with the same spell remember) and he drove off the 
dementors so he would have seen the dementors trying to give Harry 
the kiss.

Danette




From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 10:32:07 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (captain_debrowe at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:32:07 -0000
Subject: Peter
In-Reply-To: <9e7cm7+o22g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e86f7+3seo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19034

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aasta2000 at y... wrote:
> Why didn't Sirius or Lupin stun Peter in PoA when they were taking 
> him up to the castle? They knew he would run off, given the chance. 
> Is it an honor issue? "Don't knock out someone who is defenseless 
and 
> already under control" or something like that?
> 
>      --Aasta

Actually IMO It would have been an honor thing becuase Peter was 
their friend when he was at school with them.  From what I've read 
about them this would make sense after all.  I think honor is very 
important to Sirius and Lupin.

Danette




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun May 20 10:37:12 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 06:37:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F900D@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19035

I do see a more practical reason as well-i, en route to the castle, they had
been spotted by a witch or wizard, it would?e looked bad to be dragging
Unconsciouss!Peter but a peter who could speak for himself would be less so
--------------------------
Please reply to htandy at carltonfields.com

Confidential:  This e-mail may contain a communication protected by the
attorney-client privilege.  If you do not expect such a communication from
Heidi Howard Tandy, please delete this message without reading it or any
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mis-delivery. Thank you.


-----Original Message-----
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com <captain_debrowe at yahoo.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun May 20 06:32:07 2001
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter

Real-To:  captain_debrowe at yahoo.com

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aasta2000 at y... wrote:
> Why didn't Sirius or Lupin stun Peter in PoA when they were taking 
> him up to the castle? They knew he would run off, given the chance. 
> Is it an honor issue? "Don't knock out someone who is defenseless 
and 
> already under control" or something like that?
> 
>      --Aasta

Actually IMO It would have been an honor thing becuase Peter was 
their friend when he was at school with them.  From what I've read 
about them this would make sense after all.  I think honor is very 
important to Sirius and Lupin.

Danette


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From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sun May 20 11:26:12 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:26:12 -0000
Subject: random thoughts of a gardener
In-Reply-To: <9e7537+53kp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e89kl+180a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19036

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> wrote:
> So today, I was working in the garden and I was thinking.  And you 
> know how it is when you're gardening, you think about all kinds of 
> crazy stuff
  

Pleased to say that I'm ignorant of it ;-)

> 1. Cheering Charms.  Is it okay to put a cheering charm on yourself?  
> Why not just put a cheering charm on yourself all the time.  Seems to 
> me a cheering charm is really just a big fat magic Doobie.  Lucky 
> they have lunch right after Charms.  BTW, I am NOT one of those 
> people who thinks HP teaches kids to use drugs.

Cheering Charm = Prozac, maybe?  Using it all the time isn't a good
idea, I dare say.

> 2. Magic Babies.  If I'm a witch and know how to brew a sleeping 
> draught, is it okay to use it on a baby?

Same as Muggle sleeping drugs, I suppose - generally inappropriate,
and it may not work on their digestion.  Again, shouldn't be over-used.

> Joywitch's Poopus 
> Gowayus ? the Teletubbies toilet spell ? how about one to get their 
> feet to stop moving when you're trying to jam on those teeny-weeny 
> socks?

The Leg-Locker Curse (PS)

>  And can they do things back to you?  Can they magic off their 
> diaper if they don't want to wear it?

And you find where it went six months later.  But I suppose if
examination papers can be charmed against cheating, a diaper can
be charmed so that it can't be zapped off - or even so that baby
_likes_ wearing it.

> Can they force you to hold them all the time?  
> (2a. The Durselys.  I've had to convince myself that Dumbledore 
> bewitched Harry so that he didn't need rocked at night, and was 
> particularly good at feeding himself so that he was an easy toddler 
> and didn't really need the Durselys too much.  It's the only way I 
> can cope with them.)

I've been worrying about them too.  Has anyone written them up in
fanfic?  Last night I sat up trying to get them out of my system.

> 3. Hogwarts Food.  Very old fashioned.  Why don't they ever get pizza 
> or pasta?  And have you noticed all the bacon? 

Pizza?  Does the Shrieking Shack in Hogsmeade deliver?  They'd need
pretty big owls.

IRL British boarding schools cater for an expatriate community,
which perhaps has certain old-fashioned expectations of British
culture - none of this Italian nonsense.  (American tourists are
pleasantly surprised that they can get pizza in Italy.)
Our hospital food only just got revised now since, um, 1947?
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/ - their food correspondent is a vegetarian,
are you?  It would account for noticing bacon particularly, from what
I hear.)  And JKR's own cooking may be limited.  (Does she read
here?  Or does she have people who read here?)  My mother, god rest
her soul, did a good pizza - at least, we thought so.

> 6. Mandrakes.  Hilarious.  But it made me kind of queasy that they 
> were so human-like and got sliced up.

I used to worry about eating jelly-babies and gingerbread men.
The mandrakes are an excellent piece of writing over the heads of
younger readers for the benefit of grown-ups - something to look
forward to, the tenth time through (either at bedtime or on audiobook
in the car).

> 7. My Wand.  If  I were a witch, I would keep my wand stuck in my 
> hair bun.  It's were keep my pencils, much handier than a pocket or 
> belt and more of a fashion statement too.

Turns out I've been imagining wands longer than Ollivander makes 'em (PS),
more like samurai swords than hairpins, you gave me a rather different
mental picture at first.  Re-reading, Hagrid's at 16 inches (40 cm) is 
he longest by some way, but Hagrid is large himself.  (I suspect that
acromantula bites cause acromegaly - that their bite passes on the
spell that created them.)  That suggests several interesting and
irrelevant thoughts, such as that young wizards outgrow their wands -
perhaps in GOF?  And V's wand is bigger than Harry's - but Freudianism
is so pass? nowadays.  Perhaps another nod to the grown-ups coming there...=


> 8. Magic and Nature.  And this one is serious.  But I've not got it 
> totally worked out yet.  Somehow, magic is a part of pure nature and 
> technology that Muggles use is extremely perverted and that why it 
> doesn't work around powerfully magical people or in very  magically 
> charged places.  Because technology is unnatural.  Thoughts are 
> swirling in my head, I can't quite reach them
.  Grasp Grasp
.
> Excuse me, I have to go read some Thoreau now.  (And NO Unibomber 
> jokes, please).

If you get on to Montaigne, worry :-)

Is it just electronics that doesn't work, specifically?  A strong
magical field possibly interferes with the Hall effect.  (From high
school physics of the transistor, I remember only that there's
something called the Hall effect.)  So a vacuum cleaner or a washing
machine would work.  Wizards don't use these things because with magic
they don't need them, and they mostly don't understand them - before I
read any HP I'd gathered that playing practical jokes on Muggles was a
major theme, but up to POA that's hardly there - it seems that wizards 
keep to the wizarding world.

It's interesting that wizards' spell technology (what I've seen)
seems to have developed, historically, approximately in parallel
with Muggle industrial and scientific progress.  (The books are
mostly set in the early 1990s, don't expect recent problems with
railways to feature.)  I think this is probably just to avoid
unintended subtext - either that wizards are a secret society
far cleverer than Muggles and probably running the world in secret,
or that wizards actually have fewer resources than Muggles and are
really inferior.  Instead of either of these, they've always been
more or less the same - wizards are far less numerous, but somewhat
technically advanced compared to their Muggle neighbours.  But
mediaeval wizards have mediaeval-type spells, for instance.
The Chamber of Secrets - I've just realised that "chamber" is
a toilet joke - and Hogwarts' plumbing is one huge exception -
but then, Britain was (mostly) in the Roman Empire long before
Hogwarts was founded, and maybe wizards simply didn't lose knowledge
of ancient Roman technology, as Muggles did.  The Romans actually did
quite a lot for us (or to us, arguably).

Technology _is_ nature, applied.  So is magic - half of the magic
bestiary isn't natural, but the result of wizards mucking about with
epigenetic modification.

I gather that Hogwarts is in my Highlands, some way north of Roman
Britain, I suppose, and on top of a mountain, which I'd say makes it
fifty-fifty as to whether you'd get a mobile phone signal or not.
These days, we get a lot of people lost or stranded climbing our
mountains who phone for help - it happens my brother-in-law is one
of the volunteers who goes up to fetch them home.  This may have
helped to persuade him and my sister to let their kids have their own
phones, too - the kids don't climb, I think, but they ski, snowboard,
etc.

There's a good deal of fantasy that touches on magic and science not
co-existing - where one works, the other doesn't.  I know Roger 
Zelazny's used the idea several times; his _Changeling_ and _Madwand_
which I just re-read, deal with actual conflict between the two forces
and their users.  For an author, the practical benefit is that you
can get on with telling what amounts to a fairy-story with a modern
hero without being obliged to consider that the hero could do a lot
more with, say, a machine gun.  It's something you have to do to make
a story stand up, like writing out the parents so that children can
have adventures.  On the other hand, mixing science and sorcery is
also fruitful.  I understand (I may be wrong) that "the new Harry
Potter", Eoin Colfer's Artemis Fowl series-presumptive, inclines that
way.

(I hope that HP and AF don't come to blows.  I was irreversibly
disgusted by the Borribles ( www.theborribles.co.uk ) upon learning
that they made a living by mugging Wombles.)

According to Zelazny, a gun works in magical places _if_ you have the
right explosives, and, clearly, magical explosives exist.  And things
blow up nicely in Potions classes.  However, we might presume that,
as in _Dune_, there are also widely available defences against
projectiles - although they're probably not legal against Bludgers on
the Quidditch pitch.

Don't knock technology, without it you couldn't send e-mail from your
garden ;-)  And I believe that's "Unabomber", although google.com
gives the contrary opinion a relatively large share of the vote.
The Internet is so democratic...

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American 
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)

- on reflection, one also wonders why she read them _all_, in that case





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May 20 13:22:48 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 13:22:48 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9e7vrr+usl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e8gf8+jc48@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19037

Well, if he actually takes, "one step forward" JKR has made yet 
another flint. But he could have *meant* one turn ... but she didn't 
*say* that, did she? Maybe JKR doesn't know dip about chess. 

I still say that she should send the first 2,000 copies of each of 
her next books to US first. Why pay all those editors for a job which 
we can do for free? (and do it better)

I think Scholastic should have a contest with the prize being one 
hour with JKR, to ask her all the questions we all want to know. I 
would not want to be the winner, though. I can just see me coming 
back to this list and everyone saying, "You didn't ask her THIS 
question? You had an HOUR with JKR and you didn't ask her?!" :)))

Doreen, who would probably just be so flustered, she would forget to 
ask anything ... probably say things like, "So, how did you get 
started writing Harry Potter...."


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > I know what a "flint" is ... but why is it called a "flint"?
> > 
> > Doreen
> 
> Because the most obvious mistake JKR ever made, was putting Marcus 
> Flint in the 6th year in PS - and he is still there as captain of 
the 
> Slytherin Quidditch team in PoA, when he should have left the 
school 
> by then.  So mistakes are now referred to as "Flints."
> 
> BTW: re the chess.  Seeing as this has come up, there is another 
line 
> I noticed which doesn't make sense:
> 
> Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me - "
> 
> and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen pounced."
> 
> I know this is probably just figure of speech, but it has always 
> annoyed me - Ron is a Knight, and they don't move forward one step 
at 
> a time - they move 3 forward, 1 across.  So another flint, or 
> imprecise language?  Or am I just being too nitpicky?
> 
> Catherine




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun May 20 13:30:05 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 13:30:05 -0000
Subject: Peter
In-Reply-To: <9e86f7+3seo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e8gst+3hsb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19038

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., captain_debrowe at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aasta2000 at y... wrote:
> > Why didn't Sirius or Lupin stun Peter in PoA when they were 
taking 
> > him up to the castle? They knew he would run off, given the 
chance. 
> > Is it an honor issue? "Don't knock out someone who is defenseless 
> and 
> > already under control" or something like that?
> > 
> >      --Aasta


I think they underestimated the weak, sneaky, little scum. My ex was 
a policeman and he said the small wirey guys were always harder to 
get under control than the big burly guys. 

Lupin & Sirius probably thought they could overpower him if he 
attempted any escapes. They probably also thought that Pettigrew was 
properly subdued. They also might not have been thinking as clearly 
as they should have been. They had just had an emotional experience 
and were under some stress.

Doreen, who thinks *any* answer is better than, "So that JKR could 
use him in the next book..."




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun May 20 14:02:31 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:02:31 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e85ko+p3iu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e8ipn+r7jj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19039

Danette wrote:
> 
> I'm new to the list but I felt I need to add my two cents.  Actually 
> if you remember Snape woke up (he'd been knocked out by all the kids 
> hitting him with the same spell remember) and he drove off the 
> dementors so he would have seen the dementors trying to give Harry 
> the kiss.
> 

Hi Danette - 
IIRC, Harry was the one who drove off the Dementors with his own 
Patronus (through the Time Turner) - remember how Harry thought he saw 
his father but he was really seeing himself?  Snape woke up after all 
of that and saw Harry and Hermione lying on the ground and he helped 
them back to school.  I was under the impression that he lied about 
driving off the Dementors in hopes of a little glory for himself.

--jenny from ravenclaw********************************************




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sun May 20 14:18:45 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:18:45 -0000
Subject: Peter
In-Reply-To: <9e8gst+3hsb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e8jo5+8mr4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19040

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., captain_debrowe at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aasta2000 at y... wrote:
> > > Why didn't Sirius or Lupin stun Peter in PoA when they were 
> taking 
> > > him up to the castle? They knew he would run off, given the 
> chance. 
> > > Is it an honor issue? "Don't knock out someone who is defenseless 
> > and 
> > > already under control" or something like that?
> > > 
> > >      --Aasta
> 
> 
> I think they underestimated the weak, sneaky, little scum. My ex was 
> a policeman and he said the small wirey guys were always harder to 
> get under control than the big burly guys. 
> 
> Lupin & Sirius probably thought they could overpower him if he 
> attempted any escapes. They probably also thought that Pettigrew was 
> properly subdued. They also might not have been thinking as clearly 
> as they should have been. They had just had an emotional experience 
> and were under some stress.

Actually, on re-reading, they were ready to kill him - or thought they
were - with Harry's consent, if Peter tried anything.  They would have
killed him outright if Harry hadn't intervened.

Also, Lupin swears to Harry that he won't do anything more than tie
Peter up.  Perhaps promises are more binding among wizards, or perhaps
Lupin personally feels bound by that.  Peter doesn't make any promise
not to escape that I can see...?

Lupin's promise could also account for his not attacking Peter as
soon as he transformed to wolf.  This hypothesis requires that Peter
doesn't move to escape until wolf-Lupin isn't an immediate threat to
him, otherwise he'd be dog meat - and the action is consistent with
that hypothesis.

Lupin probably doesn't quite trust Black to do anything short of
killing Peter, and that's wise.  He had to restrain him before.
It seems that Black isn't quite himself - understandably.
When they did cast a spell on him, they did it together - and doing
that again would break Lupin's promise.  They could, however, have
asked the children to Charm Peter to sleep.  He's more dangerous, not
less, if he can talk.  If you've read Tolkien -

> Doreen, who thinks *any* answer is better than, "So that JKR could 
> use him in the next book..."

That probably is the answer.  If you want to perform a mental rewrite,
how about having him bound _and_ Charmed, but he gets free using
Dark Arts from Voldemort that they don't know about?

Stray thought.  Houses don't seem to mix much socially up to POA,
an exception being Percy's Ravenclaw prefect girlfriend - I presume
that prefects are set apart from their Houses, and have one prefects'
common-room.  So are all the Marauders in Gryffindor, too?
James surely is.  I think the school _really_ need to get that hat
fixed - half of Harry's friends are in the wrong House, too.
Or perhaps Tom Riddle once interfered with it for a joke...

Elsewhere (not The Lexicon, but http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ ,
which _is_ a lexicon ;-), someone objected to footage of The Film
showing students with House badges on their robes, on the grounds
that our friends see Penelope and don't recognise her as Ravenclaw
by a badge - but upon Percy's first appearance in PS, it seems that
prefects wear prefect badges.  I suggest that this is instead of
house badges.  (And it doesn't matter anyway if The Film gives Harry
a television in his dorm room, the books are still the books and still
as good as ever.  Or a Web cam - no, don't, _don't_, go there - )

I went to this sort of school (with considerable differences of detail), and I never wanted to be a prefect - nasty things - do you
suppose that Harry will become a prefect?  Captain of Quidditch?
Head Boy?  Or, of course, dead. ;-)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland
Who really, really should be doing something else right now.

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 20 18:39:35 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:39:35 -0000
Subject: random thoughts of a gardener
In-Reply-To: <9e89kl+180a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9318+fj7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19041

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 

> > 3. Hogwarts Food.  Very old fashioned.  Why don't they ever get 
> pizza or pasta?  And have you noticed all the bacon? 

The wizarding folk seem to be very old-fashioned in general (except 
for a modicum of gender equality). Would Ron react to pizza the same 
way he reacted to bouillabaise?
> 
> Turns out I've been imagining wands longer than Ollivander makes
> 'em (PS), more like samurai swords than hairpins, you gave me a 
> rather different mental picture at first.

And the WB website makes them shorter than Ollivander does -- 11 
inches seem pretty typical for Ollivander and 8 inches for WB. I 
think an Ollivander wand wouldn't fit in a hair bun, both too long 
and too thick, but I don't stick anything in my mess of an improvised 
hair bun (to get the hair off my neck when I'm boiling to death), so 
I don't really know. 

> Freudianism is so pass? nowadays.

The one that really got to me was Mrs Weasley cooking dinner, 
squirting white sauce from her wand. 

> It's interesting that wizards' spell technology (what I've seen)
> seems to have developed, historically, approximately in parallel
> with Muggle industrial and scientific progress. 

My theory (posted in more detail a few millennia ago) is that at 
first Muggles used technology to try to achieve the things they had 
seen when visiting wizarding places. (That is what Hermione was 
taught in Muggle Studies.)   

Indoor plumbing with flush toilets and hot and cold running water is 
something the wizarding folk have had, in this theory, since 
Atlantis, and all Muggle inventions of plumbing were attempts to 
imitate wizarding plumbing. Gaslight was an attempt to imitate those 
self-lighting candles that illuminate Hogwarts and presumably many 
other places. Steam engines in mine pumps, steam ships, railway 
engines, and very early automobiles were attempts to imitate magic 
self-working devices such as the ships and carriages that move of 
themselves.

But then Muggles got into inventing original things, from telegraph 
to Internet, and it was the wizarding folk's turn to use magic to try 
to imitate Muggle technology (which they don't admit in Muggle 
Studies class). However, there would no reason for the Wizarding 
Wireless Network to be called "wireless" if it weren't an imitation 
of Muggle wireless, which got that name to contrast it with telegraph 
*wire*. Btw, the wizarding folk should previously have invented a 
magic imitation of telegraph, which I named Spellegraph.

As for the statement that 'technology' doesn't work at Hogwarts 
because the magic field there is so intense that it knocks them out, 
I take it that that applies only to electricity and electronics (such 
as computers, mobile phones, vaccuum tube radios, battery powered 
flashlight, the generator and electrical system of 1950s automobiles, 
the walkie-talkies and 'bugging' devices that Harry suggested and 
Hermione shot down, etc.)   Not to purely mechanical devices. Knives 
work at Hogwarts, so how could scissors not work? Eggtimers (like 
hourglasses, the sand trickles). Wristwatches -- the old fashioned 
clockwork kind that had to be wound with a winding stem and was full 
of gears and no electronics. I believe that gas lights and steam 
engines would also work at Hogwarts, if there was any use for them 
there, where their results cam be better achieved by magic.
> 
> Technology _is_ nature, applied. 

Hooray! This is a forbidden "I agree!" post! 





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 20 18:55:17 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:55:17 -0000
Subject: Peter
In-Reply-To: <9e8jo5+8mr4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e93ul+fk95@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19042

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., captain_debrowe at y... wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aasta2000 at y... wrote:

The way the citations stack up is so pretty.

> Also, Lupin swears to Harry that he won't do anything more than tie
> Peter up.  Perhaps promises are more binding among wizards, or
> perhaps Lupin personally feels bound by that.  Peter doesn't make
> any promise not to escape that I can see...?
> 
> Lupin's promise could also account for his not attacking Peter as
> soon as he transformed to wolf.  This hypothesis requires that 
> Peter doesn't move to escape until wolf-Lupin isn't an immediate
> threat to him, otherwise he'd be dog meat - and the action is
> consistent with that hypothesis.

In that case, the wizard's promise must be magically binding, not 
merely Remus's severe sense of personal honor. Because when he 
transforms into wolf without Wolfbane Potion, he loses his human 
mind (with the sense of honor and knowledge of which human is friend 
and which is foe) and it is replaced with an overwhelming compulsion, 
hunger, desire, rage, reflex response, to attack and try to kill any 
human that the wolf perceives.

> Stray thought.  Houses don't seem to mix much socially up to POA,
> an exception being Percy's Ravenclaw prefect girlfriend - I presume
> that prefects are set apart from their Houses, and have one
> prefects' common-room.  

Houses don't seem to mix much socially, but there are Doubles class: 
we've seen Gryffindor sharing Potions with Slytherin and Herbology 
with Hufflepuff, and I theorize that they share Astronomy with 
Ravenclaw. That is one way that students from different Houses can 
meet. I believe that there are also extracurricular clubs, which we 
readers haven't seen, except for the screwed-up meeting of a dueling 
club, because Harry is busy enough with classes, Quidditch and saving 
the world that he doesn't feel any need to join Drama Club or Cooking 
Club or Chess Club.

> So are all the Marauders in Gryffindor, too? James surely is.  I 
> think the school _really_ need to get that hat fixed - half of 
> Harry's friends are in the wrong House, too.

I'm sure that all the Marauders were in Gryffindor, that they were 
all roommates in one dorm.

Peter may have been quite brave until 12 years of life as a rat 
turned him into the snivelling coward we saw in PoA. (If his motive 
for betraying his friends was something other than fear for his own 
survival, as he claimed in PoA, what was it?) 

There has been much talk of why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw. It is 
generally agreed that, much as she loves books and loves to just know 
stuff, she loves even more to use her knowledge to save the world, 
and that Ravenclaws tend to be more passive than she is. Who else 
do you think is in the wrong House? Btw, Hermione wanted to be in 
Gryffindor (she said so on the train) and Draco wanted to be in 
Slytherin, and I suspect that the Sorting Hat takes the student's 
desire into consideration as well as personality.




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Sun May 20 19:21:40 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:21:40 -0000
Subject: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9e8ipn+r7jj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e95g4+mbpr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19043

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Danette wrote:
> > 
> > I'm new to the list but I felt I need to add my two cents.  
Actually 
> > if you remember Snape woke up (he'd been knocked out by all the 
kids 
> > hitting him with the same spell remember) and he drove off the 
> > dementors so he would have seen the dementors trying to give Harry 
> > the kiss.
> > 
> 
> Hi Danette - 
> IIRC, Harry was the one who drove off the Dementors with his own 
> Patronus (through the Time Turner) - remember how Harry thought he 
saw 
> his father but he was really seeing himself?  Snape woke up after 
all 
> of that and saw Harry and Hermione lying on the ground and he helped 
> them back to school.  I was under the impression that he lied about 
> driving off the Dementors in hopes of a little glory for himself.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw******************************************

Yes, this is when Snape came around so he definitely didn't witness 
the attempted kiss.  However he didn't try to take the credit for 
himself (refer his conversation with Fudge...)
"What amazes me is the behaviour of the Dementors ... you've really no 
idea what made them retreat Snape?"
"No Minister. By the time I had come round they were heading back to 
their positions at the entrances..."

Florence

"




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Sun May 20 19:29:49 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:29:49 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <003301c0e0e8$62bd9500$0101a8c0@hp>
Message-ID: <9e95vd+eonj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19044

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" <natabat at c...> wrote:
> > Now if only someone would tell how it can be that a superlative
> > player like Ron is still calling the rooks "castles"...  :)
> 
> Ahh, but just because Ron knows they're called rooks doesn't mean
> Harry and Hermione know it too. Think about it--when you're
> explaining chess to rookies, you don't call rooks rooks until they
> get the hang of it.

Ummm, beyond which, castle is an acceptable alternate term for rook,
regardless of whether the chess world's upper echelons use it.

....Craig





From ender_w at msn.com  Sun May 20 20:22:19 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 16:22:19 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: random thoughts of a gardener
References: <9e9318+fj7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c0e16a$937b7ae0$a8e8183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 19045


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rita Winston 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 2:39 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: random thoughts of a gardener


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
  > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 

  > > 3. Hogwarts Food.  Very old fashioned.  Why don't they ever get 
  > pizza or pasta?  And have you noticed all the bacon? 

  The wizarding folk seem to be very old-fashioned in general (except 
  for a modicum of gender equality). Would Ron react to pizza the same 
  way he reacted to bouillabaise?
  > 

  Now I have a mental image of a wizard wearing a red and blue pointed hat, riding a broomstick with a Dominoes sign attached to the bristles.
  That leads me to wonder...this is a question for my British listmates, do you have pizza delivery restaurants on every corner like we do?  Is pizza delivery a normal thing over there?

  ender (who actually worked for Dominos once and owns a screwed up dominos cap...the colors are backwards)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun May 20 20:46:44 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:46:44 -0000
Subject: Marauders
Message-ID: <9e9afk+9rhv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19046

THE MARAUDERS!!!! I hate that title that people have given to James, 
Sirius, Peter and Lupin. It makes them sound like a gang! They were 
FRIENDS! They wouldn't refer to themselves as a gang! It's way too 
cliche for JK...anyways...know i have the anger out of the way i can 
get down to my point...that the marauders map i so-called, not 
because of its creators, but because of its target 
audience...marauders...
Main Entry: ma?raud
Pronunciation: m&-'rod
Function: verb
Etymology: French marauder
Date: 1711
intransitive senses : to roam about and raid in search of plunder
...The Marauders map was "an aid to magical mischeif makers" ie. 
marauders....

Any thoughts??? 

Claire






From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Sun May 20 20:47:59 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:47:59 -0000
Subject: Books online?
Message-ID: <9e9ahv+857o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19047

I'm not a pirate and I'm not trying to cheat Rowling, I bought all 4 
books, it was money well spent and she deserves to become very rich, 
but I would love to have all her works on my computer as a text file 
a word file or a html file, it would make searching for a quote much 
easier. It must be on the net somewhere, anybody know where?






From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun May 20 21:08:44 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 21:08:44 -0000
Subject: Tribbles, Malfoy, SI fics,  and Polyjuice potion
In-Reply-To: <aa.15b03a28.28373d6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9e9bos+amea@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19048

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/18/01 9:52:46 PM EST, nethilia at y... writes:
> 
> << Two: In PoA4: The Leaky Cauldron, when the Trio go
>  into the shop, there's a basket of "funny
>  custard-colored furballs that were humming loudly".
>  The first thing I thought about was Tribbles. Anyone
>  else think about that, or am I nuts?  >>
> 
> You're not nuts.  That's the first thing I thought of, and I 
haven't watched 
> Star Trek in years.  I wonder if JKR watches it (Star Wars too).
> Devika :)

lol! Tribbles??? I like that word! Maybe thats how she got the idea 
for Puffskeins...but shhhh don't tell Star Trek, JK doesn't exactly 
need another court battle now, does she!

Claire




From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Sun May 20 21:57:54 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 21:57:54 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Small Dementor Puzzle
Message-ID: <F1128NpqhNPPzQT456U00001e82@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19049

Dannette wrote:

>I'm new to the list but I felt I need to add my two cents.  Actually
>if you remember Snape woke up (he'd been knocked out by all the kids
>hitting him with the same spell remember) and he drove off the
>dementors so he would have seen the dementors trying to give Harry
>the kiss.

Okay, but now I'm wondering HOW Snape did it? And relatedly, what would 
Snape's patronus be?


Mwhahaha....

Cait, in a very evil mood due to getting her butt kicked in AD&D last night 
due to GM's evil mood.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sun May 20 22:12:14 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:12:14 -0000
Subject: thoughts of a gardener: technology
In-Reply-To: <9e9318+fj7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9ffu+mphv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19050

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
> 
> > It's interesting that wizards' spell technology (what I've seen)
> > seems to have developed, historically, approximately in parallel
> > with Muggle industrial and scientific progress. 
> 
> My theory (posted in more detail a few millennia ago) is that at 
> first Muggles used technology to try to achieve the things they had 
> seen when visiting wizarding places. (That is what Hermione was 
> taught in Muggle Studies.)   
> 
> Indoor plumbing with flush toilets and hot and cold running water is 
> something the wizarding folk have had, in this theory, since 
> Atlantis, and all Muggle inventions of plumbing were attempts to 
> imitate wizarding plumbing. Gaslight was an attempt to imitate those 
> self-lighting candles that illuminate Hogwarts and presumably many 
> other places. Steam engines in mine pumps, steam ships, railway 
> engines, and very early automobiles were attempts to imitate magic 
> self-working devices such as the ships and carriages that move of 
> themselves.
> 
> But then Muggles got into inventing original things, from telegraph 
> to Internet, and it was the wizarding folk's turn to use magic to try 
> to imitate Muggle technology (which they don't admit in Muggle 
> Studies class). However, there would no reason for the Wizarding 
> Wireless Network to be called "wireless" if it weren't an imitation 
> of Muggle wireless, which got that name to contrast it with telegraph 
> *wire*. Btw, the wizarding folk should previously have invented a 
> magic imitation of telegraph, which I named Spellegraph.

Interesting theory - and a quick search at Google confirms that
Plato credited Atlantis with hot and cold running water, although
he doesn't describe exactly how one made offerings at the temple of
Poseidon, so to speak. ;-)  Is the hot water bit in GOF?
Muggle plumbing still has the relative disadvantage that for us,
water only runs downhill.  I noticed that Steve Vander Ark was
worried about the age of the plumbing, on his "Mysteries and puzzles"
page - and about where it goes, too.

And _Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them_ indicates that wizards
hid themselves as well as magical beasts from Muggles during the late
17th or the 18th century - presumably it took some time to Charm the
entire population into not believing in them - so, yes, there were
steam engines and locomotives by then.  The electric broomstick,
even the innovative design by that clever Mr. Dyson, seems to have
missed the point...

We should give Muggle inventors credit, I think, for surely realising
that simply imitating magical devices without any magic to make them
go wasn't going to work - but things that wizards do by magic might
indeed inspire inventors to look for mechanical ways of doing the
same thing.  Muggle mines had pumps before they had engines, I suppose -
now that I think, Roman Britain had mines, too, and I remember someone
on T.V. recently explaining how they (maybe) pumped or otherwise removed
the water when they dug down below the water table - and post-Romans,
they had little horse-drawn railways down there, I think.  That might
be inspired not by wizards but by goblins (Gringotts).  Incidentally,
is there one kind of wizard money worldwide, and does Gringotts issue
it?  And does Gringotts have mines down there too?  And do they use
deposits to lend elsewhere, just as Muggle banks do, and teleport
your money back into your vault when you come to open it?

If wizards generally avoid the Muggle world - although Voldemort
somehow has one wizard and one Muggle parent (GOF may clarify) -
then most of the commerce is one way, wizard children of Muggle
parents bringing Muggle ideas into the wizard world.

But don't you think that wizard Spellegraph might have used wires?
One would write a letter, clip it onto the wire, and enchant it to
be carried away to its destination.  Wireless Spellegraph used some
other sort of Apparatus, and now there's wizard's wireless sound
radio.  I presume that it comes in Auditory Magic and Fidelity Magic
versions, while wizard engineers have high hopes for a new
prestidigital system?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

- trying to forget about Percy shut in his bedroom all summer,
polishing his prefect's badge (CS)





From litalex at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 22:24:18 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 15:24:18 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauders
References: <9e9afk+9rhv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <028a01c0e17b$9d307700$060ceda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 19051

Hello,

>>> FRIENDS! They wouldn't refer to themselves as a gang! It's way too <<<<

Oh, I think they would.  A bunch of teenage boys, high on mischief, might
just romanticize themselves as, if not highwaymen, then at least Robin Hood
types.

little Alex






From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Sun May 20 22:20:39 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:20:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Small Dementor Puzzle
In-Reply-To: <F1128NpqhNPPzQT456U00001e82@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010520182039.008681e0@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19052

At 09:57 PM 5/20/01 -0000, Cait wrote:

>And relatedly, what would Snape's patronus be?

Or rather, would he even be able to draw up enough positive energy to
summon a patronus?

Samaporn



From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun May 20 22:36:08 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:36:08 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <028a01c0e17b$9d307700$060ceda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <9e9gso+9n90@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19053

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> >>> FRIENDS! They wouldn't refer to themselves as a gang! It's way 
too <<<<
> 
> Oh, I think they would.  A bunch of teenage boys, high on mischief, 
might
> just romanticize themselves as, if not highwaymen, then at least 
Robin Hood
> types.
> 
> little Alex


ummmm
It's not very JK is it???
Are you american? The Marauders makes them sound like a club...as if 
you had to "join"...
Claire




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 23:09:57 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 16:09:57 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauders
References: <9e9gso+9n90@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <034f01c0e181$fd8bc400$060ceda9@littlealex>

No: HPFGUIDX 19054

Hello,

> It's not very JK is it???

Not very JK in what sense?

> Are you american? The Marauders makes them sound like a club...as if
> you had to "join"...

Yes, I'm American, but I fail to see the significance of such.  I grew up in
Hong Kong, so I do know a tad bit about British school culture.  A very
small bit, but enough.  I don't think of it as a club, more like, a secret
society, a bit like... The Dead Poets Society.

little Alex




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Sun May 20 23:13:36 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:13:36 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <034f01c0e181$fd8bc400$060ceda9@littlealex>
Message-ID: <9e9j30+ai59@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19055



little Alex...
I don't think of it as a club, more like, a secret
 society, a bit like... The Dead Poets Society.
 
Ok, I'm agreed w/the dead poets society. I just get a bit angry at 
people when they talk about them as if they were a club (secret 
handshakes!!!). But i do think they could have come up with a better 
name if they were a "secret society". Then again, i dont know much of 
the "histoy", maybe they did "maraud"...
...just seems that JK would have come up with a more original idea..
Claire







From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun May 20 23:19:24 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 16:19:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: random thoughts of a gardener
In-Reply-To: <9e89kl+180a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010520231924.85318.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19056

> Instead of either of these, they've always been
> more or less the same - wizards are far less numerous, but somewhat
> technically advanced compared to their Muggle neighbours.  But
> mediaeval wizards have mediaeval-type spells, for instance.

I think that the wizard world is far less advanced than the Muggle
world.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of "what would happen if I did
this?" thinking in the wizarding world and that question is behind
many scientific and technical advances.

Actually, the curriculum at Hogwards reminds me of PG Wodehouse's
school stories where the boys study the classics and don't have much
to do with maths or hard sciences.  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sun May 20 23:26:17 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:26:17 -0000
Subject: Peter + Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <9e93ul+fk95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9jqp+lrp9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19057

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., captain_debrowe at y... wrote:
> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aasta2000 at y... wrote:
> 
> The way the citations stack up is so pretty.
> 
> > Also, Lupin swears to Harry that he won't do anything more than tie
> > Peter up.  Perhaps promises are more binding among wizards, or
> > perhaps Lupin personally feels bound by that.  Peter doesn't make
> > any promise not to escape that I can see...?
> > 
> > Lupin's promise could also account for his not attacking Peter as
> > soon as he transformed to wolf.  This hypothesis requires that 
> > Peter doesn't move to escape until wolf-Lupin isn't an immediate
> > threat to him, otherwise he'd be dog meat - and the action is
> > consistent with that hypothesis.
> 
> In that case, the wizard's promise must be magically binding, not 
> merely Remus's severe sense of personal honor. Because when he 
> transforms into wolf without Wolfbane Potion, he loses his human 
> mind (with the sense of honor and knowledge of which human is friend 
> and which is foe) and it is replaced with an overwhelming compulsion, 
> hunger, desire, rage, reflex response, to attack and try to kill any 
> human that the wolf perceives.

But it's not instantaneous - or he couldn't handle boggarts.
In this case, his attention is on the manacle he's wearing;
having got rid of that, he _would_ have jumped on the nearest
human, I dare say - Pettigrew or Ron - but Sirius Black jumps
on him first.

IRL, wolves supposedly don't attack humans unless they're provoked,
or, possibly, hungry.  Werewolves are evidently different there,
though.

Uh oh - did Lupin bite Black?  Oh, [expletive deleted], poor old Sirius.  It just wasn't his lucky day - although perhaps werewolf
bite doesn't work on a transformed Animagus?
 
> > So are all the Marauders in Gryffindor, too? James surely is.  I 
> > think the school _really_ need to get that hat fixed - half of 
> > Harry's friends are in the wrong House, too.
> 
> I'm sure that all the Marauders were in Gryffindor, that they were 
> all roommates in one dorm.
> 
> Peter may have been quite brave until 12 years of life as a rat 
> turned him into the snivelling coward we saw in PoA. (If his motive 
> for betraying his friends was something other than fear for his own 
> survival, as he claimed in PoA, what was it?)

???  My POA (unless you meant GOF?) has "He would have killed me,
Sirius!" as Pettigrew's only apology.  Black doesn't consider that a
good excuse, and while I hope I never face a similar test, I can see
Black's point.  However, Black also points out that Pettigrew is
attracted to people who are stronger than himself.  How Pettigrew
really felt and feels about Voldemort may be made more clear in GOF.
Excuse me if I don't go looking for the slash fanfic, I've read
the (original) adventures of A. J. Raffles and that was quite enough.
 
> There has been much talk of why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw. It is 
> generally agreed that, much as she loves books and loves to just know 
> stuff, she loves even more to use her knowledge to save the world, 
> and that Ravenclaws tend to be more passive than she is. Who else 
> do you think is in the wrong House? Btw, Hermione wanted to be in 
> Gryffindor (she said so on the train) and Draco wanted to be in 
> Slytherin, and I suspect that the Sorting Hat takes the student's 
> desire into consideration as well as personality.

On reflection, you're right.  The hat does conduct a dialogue with
each student; it pointed out to Harry the advantages of Slytherin;
it took a long time over Neville - he was my other misplacement,
I'd have put him in Hufflepuff.  I'd guess that while the hat has
the final say, it probably lets everyone into the house that they
want to go in, unless the candidate is totally unsuited to the House
ethic.  Let's say that the hat decided to give both Harry and Neville
the chance to try to live up to Gryffindor standards.  And before
hat, it gave Pettigrew a chance, too, but in the end he flunked.

And the difference it makes to Neville, I suppose, is that he's
encouraged by the others in PS to stand up to Malfoy's gang.  That
probably wouldn't happen if he was in Hufflepuff.

All right, the hat stays.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun May 20 23:35:55 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:35:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Books online?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F9010@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19058

Hi! List policy, as has been discussed and stated in the past, makes it
clear that the list mods belive that posting such links violates us
copyright laws, and should not be done.
Questions? Email me!






























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From Zarleycat at aol.com  Mon May 21 00:19:26 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:19:26 -0000
Subject: random thoughts of a gardener
In-Reply-To: <9e7537+53kp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9mue+3u2g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19059

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> So today, I was working in the garden and I was thinking.  And you 
> know how it is when you're gardening, you think about all kinds of 
> crazy stuff
  

Absolutely - and when you start talking out loud, your neighbors 
think you're nuts!

> Why not just put a cheering charm on yourself all the time.  

Magic is not used to improve existing physical conditions, such as 
weak eysight, so I don't think using cheering charms to keep oneself 
in a constant state of euphoria would be considered acceptable.  

> 2. Magic Babies.  If I'm a witch and know how to brew a sleeping 
> draught, is it okay to use it on a baby?  

Again, I don't think you are supposed to be using magic just to make 
your life easier.  However, if your baby was ill, and as part of the 
treatment the baby needed sleep, then I'd think a sleeping potion 
would be acceptable.

 And can they do things back to you?  Can they magic off their 
> diaper if they don't want to wear it?  Can they force you to hold 
> them all the time?  

Hmmm.  I wonder if babies would be able to concentrate or focus their 
magical abilities in order to do things.  I'd think a wizard parent 
would be stronger magically than a baby, so the baby could not 
control them.  But what about Muggle parents?  Do Hermione's parents 
have strange stories to tell about the weird things she did as a baby?


> 3. Hogwarts Food.  Very old fashioned.  Why don't they ever get 
pizza 
> or pasta?  And have you noticed all the bacon? 

And IIRC, there's never any mention of vegetables, other than potatos.

> 4. Animagi.  I reckon that most people become the animal that they 
> most closely resemble(Peter is described as having beady rat-like 
> eyes, Sirius has got that shaggy black hair.) Do they also retain 
little 
> animalisms in human form?  Does Sirius forget and try to scratch 
his 
> ear with his leg?  (And I know this is different but,) Does Lupin 
> like his steaks really rare?  Does McGonagall jump up on the desk 
and 
> stick her butt in people's faces?

LOL.  How un-McGonagall-like!  I've also wondered if there is not an 
additional high-level transfiguration skill that would be a sort of 
Super Animagus where you can choose what animal to turn yourself 
into.  You'd only be able to perform this magic once you mastered the 
regular Animagus transformation, so this would be very powerful 
magic.  

Here's a scenario.  Sirius manages to turn himself into a hawk, 
swoops out of the sky and captures Peter in his rat form and carries 
him back to Dumbledore or the MOM to prove his innocence.  Since he's 
flying high in the sky, Peter doesn't dare to transform back into a 
human because he knows the hawk will drop him and he'll die from the 
fall.  Sirius can then play a more active role in the story, and not 
be spending his time hiding in caves.  Peter will escape punishment 
for now because he will be aided by a Voldie supporter within the 
MOM. Harry and Peter will cross paths again.  

It's true - your mind wanders all over when you're up to your elbows 
in potting soil.

Marianne, staring in dismay at the condition of her fingernails




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 00:22:39 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:22:39 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9e9afk+9rhv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9n4g+5ual@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19060

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> THE MARAUDERS!!!! I hate that title that people have given to James, 
> Sirius, Peter and Lupin. It makes them sound like a gang! They were 
> FRIENDS! They wouldn't refer to themselves as a gang! It's way too 
> cliche for JK...anyways...know i have the anger out of the way i can 
> get down to my point...that the marauders map i so-called, not 
> because of its creators, but because of its target 
> audience...marauders...
> Main Entry: ma?raud
> Pronunciation: m&-'rod
> Function: verb
> Etymology: French marauder
> Date: 1711
> intransitive senses : to roam about and raid in search of plunder
> ...The Marauders map was "an aid to magical mischeif makers" ie. 
> marauders....
> 
> Any thoughts??? 
> 
> Claire

You're right - it's shorthand, and not necessarily justified.
It's not The Marauders' Map as I've been writing, it's The Marauder's
Map.  But we can't just call them Them, that's another one from
Terry Pratchett.  I suspect that you'll just have to go on hating it ;-)

They did share a great, big secret - three Animagi and a werewolf -
and POA doesn't indicate that Lily was ever in on it.  Perhaps the art
of the Animagus is more aesthetic than useful - admired just because
it's difficult - logically Dumbledore would probably know if any of
them had used it against Voldemort.  It seems that it's bloody handy
if you happen to meet a werewolf, though.

I perceive that I'll make more enemies than friends here if I keep
going on about Peter Pettigrew being gay, but I can't get it out of
my head.

Plunder in the sense of whatever you can buy in Honeydukes and
Dervish & Banges, in Hogsmeade.  However, James used his Invisibility
Cloak at Hogwarts "mainly for sneaking off to the kitchens to steal
food."  I think that counts as one Marauder, anyway.  Perhaps James
did all the Marauding and shared the plunder with the others.

Incidentally, http://www.abcgallery.com/L/landseer/landseer.html
has some nice, traditional pictures of wild life in the Scottish
Highlands - several stags, falcon, ptarmigan, wild bull, Queen
Victoria. ;-)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 00:38:00 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:38:00 -0000
Subject: random thoughts of a gardener
In-Reply-To: <20010520231924.85318.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9e9o18+ro3f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19061

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > Instead of either of these, they've always been
> > more or less the same - wizards are far less numerous, but somewhat
> > technically advanced compared to their Muggle neighbours.  But
> > mediaeval wizards have mediaeval-type spells, for instance.
> 
> I think that the wizard world is far less advanced than the Muggle
> world.  There doesn't seem to be a lot of "what would happen if I did
> this?" thinking in the wizarding world and that question is behind
> many scientific and technical advances.

To be fair, the answer to "What would happen if I did this?" tends
to be more dramatic for wizards than for scientists, not counting
Alfred Nobel, Edward Teller, and the operators of Three Mile Island
and Chernobyl.  After over twenty Terry Pratchett books, _his_ wizards
still don't get the message, bless 'em.

There's a good deal of progress in magic, though.  Wolfbane Potion
is a medical advance within living memory.  Quidditch brooms are
technically better each year.  _Someone's_ doing research -
for that matter, Newt Scamander is the wizarding David Attenborough -
but IRL that happens in universities and in industry, not in secondary
schools.

Wizards don't seem to be at much of a disadvantage to their neighbours 
in terms of standard of living.  And magic doesn't stop them getting
normal jobs, unless _all_ magic interferes with technology.  There are
opportunities in telephone call centres where a funny taste in clothes
shouldnt be a disadvantage, and Sirius Black can be a motorcycle
courier -

I haven't seen a personal computer, a microwave oven, or a TV or VCR,
but otherwise they don't lack much that I personally own, I think.
(Broomstick trumps micro scooter?)

> Actually, the curriculum at Hogwards reminds me of PG Wodehouse's
> school stories where the boys study the classics and don't have much
> to do with maths or hard sciences.  

I've only read one of those, where they didn't study anything much,
they just sat around in each other's studies and talked about sports.
(I always understood that you had to go to university to do that.)
I think the hero sneaked out of school to compete in a boxing match.
Hogwarts students _work_, especially Hermione.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Mon May 21 00:42:39 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:42:39 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9e9n4g+5ual@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9o9v+mg2p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19063

rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
 But we can't just call them Them, that's another one from
> Terry Pratchett.  

Than we should think of a name for them!!! lol!!! i feel a contest 
coming on....

Claire
(the only true follower of the great goddess Errata-my favourite smal 
god)




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Mon May 21 00:46:46 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:46:46 -0000
Subject: magic babies (was random thoughts of a gardener)
In-Reply-To: <9e7537+53kp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9ohm+717q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19064

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:

2. Magic Babies. Can they magic off their > diaper if they don't want 
to wear it?  Can they force you to hold > them all the time?  

My experience with babies leads me to believe that even the muggle 
ones are taught one magic thing at birth: the imperious curse. It's a 
toughie, but OTOH it's the only thing you really *need* to know to 
get your own way for the next 18 years. I fully expect to emerge that 
day behaving a lot like Barty Crouch Sr. when Harry and Krum run into 
him on the edge of the grounds in GoF: dazed, incoherent, panicked, 
and peniless.  

But seriously.....I can only recall one instance of a baby/child and 
magic in the books: at the Triwizard Tournament campground where the 
trio glimpse a mother admonishing her child to put down Daddy's wand. 
Can anybody think of any other mentions? We hear about Harry's 
unplanned escapades but none of the other students volunteer any 
hilarious stories about their experimenting w/ magic as children. It 
must happen all the time, don't you think? 

~Rosmerta
who could use a spell to remove Legos from windpipes and vacuum 
cleaners 




From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Mon May 21 01:09:50 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:09:50 -0000
Subject: random thoughts of a gardener
In-Reply-To: <000d01c0e16a$937b7ae0$a8e8183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9e9psu+62oj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19065

"ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
That leads me to wonder...this is a question for my British 
listmates, do you have pizza delivery restaurants on every corner 
like we do?  Is pizza delivery a normal thing over there?



i know this should be off topic, but...

   Well, we do have some pizza delivery resturants (inc dominos), but 
they aren't THAT common. Fish and chip shops are!!!mmmm...could just 
do with chips and mushy peas right now....

Claire




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 01:33:57 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:33:57 -0000
Subject: random thoughts of a gardener
In-Reply-To: <9e9mue+3u2g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9ra5+8gf6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19066

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
> wrote:
> > [Can wizard babies] do things back to you?  Can they magic off their 
> > diaper if they don't want to wear it?  Can they force you to hold 
> > them all the time?  
> 
> Hmmm.  I wonder if babies would be able to concentrate or focus their 
> magical abilities in order to do things.  I'd think a wizard parent 
> would be stronger magically than a baby, so the baby could not 
> control them.  But what about Muggle parents?  Do Hermione's parents 
> have strange stories to tell about the weird things she did as a baby?

I've just remembered that _Which Witch_ by Eva Ibbotson asserts
that witches and warlocks are born with a full set of teeth.
And I understand that babies actually have to learn to breast-feed
properly.  That's not an appealing combination of circumstances.

We only meet Harry at age one, so AFAIK we still don't know if the
rule applies in HP.  Go to it, fanficcers.  You know you want to. ;-)

Meanwhile, I'm imagining Mr and Mrs Granger telephoning the British
Dental Association to ask about consequences when two dentists marry?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon May 21 01:53:36 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:53:36 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9e9afk+9rhv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9sf0+q7fr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19067

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> THE MARAUDERS!!!! I hate that title that people have given to James, 
> Sirius, Peter and Lupin. It makes them sound like a gang! They were 
> FRIENDS! They wouldn't refer to themselves as a gang! 

Maybe =they= wouldn't but Professor McGonagall does, in PoA Chapter 10,
"Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, 
of course -- exceptionally bright, in fact -- but I don't think we've 
ever had such a pair of troublemakers--"

Sounds like she at least would have thought The Marauders an 
appropriate name. You all do realize, if we  coin a new name for them, 
it'll be another piece of weird jargon we have to explain to the 
newcomers...we've already got the sufficiently obscure MWPP too.

Pippin, coiner of the term "Flint" ;P





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Mon May 21 02:00:01 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:00:01 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9e9sf0+q7fr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9sr1+72gi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19068

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> > THE MARAUDERS!!!! I hate that title that people have given to 
James, 
> > Sirius, Peter and Lupin. It makes them sound like a gang! They 
were 
> > FRIENDS! They wouldn't refer to themselves as a gang! 
> 
> Maybe =they= wouldn't but Professor McGonagall does, in PoA Chapter 
10,
> "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very 
bright, 
> of course -- exceptionally bright, in fact -- but I don't think 
we've 
> ever had such a pair of troublemakers--"
> 
> Sounds like she at least would have thought The Marauders an 
> appropriate name. You all do realize, if we  coin a new name for 
them, 
> it'll be another piece of weird jargon we have to explain to the 
> newcomers...we've already got the sufficiently obscure MWPP too.
> 
> Pippin, coiner of the term "Flint" ;P


I tend to believe that JKR's usage of "gang" may be quite different 
from the ruffians we tend to think of when we hear that term.  I 
suspect she's just referring to folks that run around together.  
(although in Dudley's case, I suspect the ruffian moniker fits. <g>

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 02:00:21 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:00:21 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9e9o9v+mg2p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9srl+o8vj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19069

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
>  But we can't just call them Them, that's another one from
> > Terry Pratchett.  
> 
> Than we should think of a name for them!!! lol!!! i feel a contest 
> coming on....
> 
> Claire

Please put "The Mappers" and "The Map Chaps" on your list.
"The Apocryphal Animagi" won't do because Lupin isn't one.
You were arguing before, though, that they're not really a
"them", a group who are friends with each other and no one else -
a clique.

I've just remembered that both James and Sirius are friends with
Hagrid - you don't lend a motorbike to just anybody.  So, of course,
are Kirk, Spock and McCoy - excuse me, Harry, Hermione and Ron.
(I think that makes James and Lily Captain Pike and Number One,
if you ignore that Spock's in that one too - he's not _their_ friend.)  
James was a popular Quidditch player, like Harry.  So he's probably
got the whole team for friends.

I infer from the Hallowe'en troll incident in PS that one or both
of the girls discussing Hermione is her particular friend, pace Ron -
aren't boys horrid, and we smell too - although I also know from my
nieces that who's whose friend can change with adult-bewildering
speed.  (Particularly with text messaging phones.)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Mon May 21 02:00:44 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:00:44 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9e9sf0+q7fr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9ssc+2u4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19070

Teachers do try to make inocent situations seem sinister don't 
they??? V.McGonagall to say that...makes them sound as if they were a 
street gang...maybe thats why i have such a problem with people 
calling them a gang...i think it sounds cheesy...
Claire

--- foxmoth at q... wrote:
Maybe =they= wouldn't but Professor McGonagall does, in PoA Chapter 
10,
> "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very 
bright, 
> of course -- exceptionally bright, in fact -- but I don't think 
we've 
> ever had such a pair of troublemakers--"





From clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk  Mon May 21 02:05:48 2001
From: clairey at airy-fairy.co.uk (Claire Weale)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:05:48 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9e9srl+o8vj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9t5s+nplq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19071

You were arguing before, though, that they're not really a
> "them", a group who are friends with each other and no one else -
> a clique.


I think my major problem with people calling them the "marauders" is 
that it makes them sound like a street gang, and as if they should 
have secret handshakes, and their names on leather jackets...


Claire
btw. map chaps is good!




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 02:16:15 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:16:15 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3ivr+r152@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9e9tpf+8cp5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19072

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:

here are a few red flags- red 
> herrings I wonder about.
> 
> CREATURES:
> PIGWIDGEON(PoA)
> Sirius doubts Pig's reliability and noted that Pig was eager for 
the 
> job of delivering to Harry. Is Pig a double agent?

Only if Sirius is one!
 
> CENTAURS: RONAN, BANE, FIRENZE
> 'One book wonders' or shall we meet again?

Yes. 
 
> ARAGOG
> In a way, Aragog has an issue with Voldy. Voldy exposed Aragog and 
> framed Hagrid.

Yes again.  Not that I trust Aragog and those spiders very much.  I 
would hate to be the one to try and get past them, though.
 
> LETHIFOLD
> Mentioned in "Fantastic Beasts". It kills wizards and witches. The 
> only thing that can stop it is the Patronus. Will one be sent to 
Ron 
> or Hermione (since they haven't mastered the Patronus yet?) Will 
one 
> be sent to Harry?

Good thought.  I can see a Lethifold being sent to someone.
 
> BUCKBEAK
> Will he have a greater role than Sirius' mode of transportation?

I'll bet Draco doesn't want to meet Buckbeak again!  

> 
> PEOPLE:
> BILL WEASLEY (GoF)
> Bill states that the last time he was at Hogwarts was 5 years ago.
> Is the purpose of that visit somehow important?

Don't forget Charlie Weasley.  I think we will see both of them but I 
think it will have more to do with where they work.  Charlie works 
with dragons in Bulgaria (am I right?) and I just believe dragons are 
going to play a fairly big role.  Bill works in Egypt. Might we not 
see some action in Egypt?  
 
> 
> VIKTOR KRUM
> Good-guy? Bad-guy? Somewhere in-between?

I just think there is more to Krum then we know yet.  There is 
something about his flying ability.  JKR keeps pointing out his 
flying abilities and how awkward he looks when he is just walking.  
Not to mention swimming in that freezing water. There's just 
something about him....black hair, sallow skin, hooked nose.  Boy, 
that description could fit somebody else in the book.  For some 
reason I like Krum and would like to see more of him.
 
> THE MCKINNONS
> Wizard family mentioned by Hagrid in SS/PS and killed during the 
> Voldy years.

Don't know. 
 
> DURSLEYS: PHYSICAL FEATURES AND MAGICAL INCIDENTS
 Are the animal-like physical 
> descriptions a clue to further Dursley related magical incidents?

I doubt it.  But has anyone else noticed that almost everyone that 
Harry dislikes are ugly?  Are they really ugly or does Harry just see 
them that way?
 
> 
> BERTHA JORKIN
> Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?

Ah....I like this question.  I use to think it was Snape but I now 
lean toward this being Sirius.  As I stated on the *Snapesfans* site, 
Sirius comments at two different times about how nosy Bertha was.  
Why should Sirius care that Bertha caught him kissing Florence unless 
Florence was Snape's girl (or someone else's) and he didn't want 
Snape to find out.  As you can tell, I am not a Lily/Snape believer.  
Anyway, if Sirius kisses Snape's girl, I don't imagine Snape would be 
very happy about that.  Also, after that kiss Florence would realize 
that there could be no other for her except Severus......the real man 
at Hogwarts! 
 
> HOGWARTS STUDENTS: MUGGLE-BORNS, HALF-MUGGLES, PURE-BLOODS
When all is said and done, are the Pure-bloods 
> more high-risk than the Muggle-borns or half-Muggles?

Anyone not on the side of Voldy is at high-risk!

> 
> DAEDULUS DIGGLE
> Diggle was mentioned twice in SS (akin to Mungdungus Fletcher who 
was 
> mentioned in CoS and GoF). Red flag? Red herring?

Yep!

> PLACES:
> GODRIC'S HOLLOW
> Site of the first Voldy-Harry battle. Could it be the final 
> battleground?

> HOGWARTS CASTLE
> Magical castle with plenty of magical rooms, including one that 
Harry 
> hasn't found yet. Is Hogwarts the site of the final battle?

I don't know where the final battle will be but I do believe we will 
see Godric's Hollow and that there will be some sort of battle at 
Hogwarts.  That is where Aragog, the Centaur's, and those in the lake 
will come into play.

> 
> DUMBLEDORE'S OFFICE
> It houses the penseive, Godric Gryffindor's sword, the Sorting Hat 
> and Fawkes. Will Harry find anymore useful things in there (with 
the 
> exception of Dumbledore of course)

Who knows what else is in there. I'm sure we'll see Harry snooping 
around in there.
 
> 
> SNAPE'S OFFICE
> In PoA, Harry noticed Snape had more jars of potion materials than 
in 
> CoS. Are these routine supplies or is Snape stocking up for 
something 
> else?

Another favorite of mine.  Snape, Dumbledore, and potions. They have 
and will play a very big part.  I remember this part in the book but 
didn't think of it as Snape getting ready for something.  Yes, I 
think Snape is stocking up.

> 
> MALFOY HOUSE
> The secret room in which Malfoy hides Dark magic items.

Harry just happens to hear about the secret room?  I can see him 
going there.
 
> 
> KNOCKTURN ALLEY
> Was Harry's visit a one-time thing?

Nope.  He'll be back there also.  Or someone will.

> 
> CURSES/SPELLS/CHARMS/POTIONS/ETC.
> UNFORGIVABLE CURSES
> Will Harry use one or all of them? Will Ron and or Hermione?
> 
> THE 12 USES OF DRAGONS BLOOD
> Will they come in handy?

Yes.  I hate to just keep saying yes.

> 
> POLYJUICE POTION
> PJP has been used twice in the series. Will it rear its ugly head 
> again?

I'm afraid it will.  I could do without it though.

Great questions!

How about the constant references to Arthur Weasley and his love for 
muggles and all those muggle things he collects?

Koinonia




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon May 21 02:24:55 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:24:55 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest Reminder
Message-ID: <9e9u9n+gmmj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19073

Remember, this is your opportunity to Make Your Own Spell!  If you 
need a spell in your life, let me know by emailing your idea to 
HP4GUCon at aol.com.  You never know....if your spell idea is good 
enough, and the contest publicized enough, maybe some wizard out 
there will take pity on us poor muggles and actually send us a 
working model of one of the spells!  (and maybe they will re-send 
that owl with the Hogwarts acceptance letter that I just know has 
been flying around looking for me since my 11th birthday, too.)

Contest details can be found in the HP4GU Contest folder in the files 
section.

--Joywitch




From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 03:01:20 2001
From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 03:01:20 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
Message-ID: <9ea0e0+ko8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19074

> PLACES:
> GODRIC'S HOLLOW
> Site of the first Voldy-Harry battle. Could it be the final 
> battleground?

While sometimes we seem to misinterpret JKR's intentions about 
certain passages or phrases, I can't imagine that she would name a 
place Godric's Hollow (after Godrick Griffyndor, I presume?), make it 
the place where Voldemort kills Harry's parent die and is "defeated" 
by Harry (if only temporarily), imply that Harry is the heir of 
Griffyndor (or is that canon and I have forgotten?), and then NOT 
make Godric's Hollow a significant site in a future book. Maybe not 
the final battle, but something pretty important along the way.

In the U.S., a geographic "hollow" (or "holler" in Applaachia) is a 
valley or low-lying area. Does it mean the same in Britain?





From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 03:22:24 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Presents...
In-Reply-To: <9ea0e0+ko8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521032224.54439.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19075


There is something that has been...well...bothering me for awhile. Why
doesn't Hermione get any birthday or Christmas presents in the HP
books? I mean, we *always* hear what Harry gets for Christmas and his
birthday. And he always gets something from Ron and Hermione. In fact,
in COS Hermione goes into the boys dormitory to give Ron and Harry her
gifts but there's absolutely NO mention of Hermione getting anything!
And Ron was in the same boat until...erm...I think GOF. Harry got Ron a
Chudley Cannon hat for Christmas. Granted, Harry got both Hermione and
Ron Omnioculars at the Quidditch Cup but still...that wasn't until the
fourth book!

We all know that Harry is not poor. He can certainly afford small gifts
for his friends. So why would JKR leave out any mention of this? How
hard is it to write an extra sentence saying "And Harry hoped that
Hermione would like the special edition of 'Hogwarts, A History' that
he got her." I suppose its nothing but this point consistently annoys
me! Hermione deserves a gift dangit, she's certainly put up with Harry
and Ron enough!

~Amber
(Who hopes this isn't a typical case of boys not knowing what to get
girls...)
 

=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the every approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

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From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Mon May 21 03:41:38 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:41:38 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Red Flags, Red Herrings
Message-ID: <55.15caaffa.2839e872@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19076

In a message dated 5/18/2001 12:47:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
absinthe at mad.scientist.com writes:


> Rowling leaves a number of clues in her books that foreshadow events 
> (red flags) in the upcoming ones, for example Mrs. Figg.

I'm sorry if I missed something, but what's the significance of Mrs. Figg, 
other than being Harry's baby-sitter when they Dursley's went somewhere?

> 
> CREATURES:
> PIGWIDGEON(PoA)
> Sirius doubts Pig's reliability and noted that Pig was eager for the 
> job of delivering to Harry. Is Pig a double agent?

I don't think so. I think he was eager to deliver to Harry just to meet him. 
Pig just seems like a young owl who needs some practice.

> 
> CENTAURS: RONAN, BANE, FIRENZE
> 'One book wonders' or shall we meet again?

Oh, I hope we see them again! The FF holds a lot of possibilities. 

> 
> ARAGOG
> In a way, Aragog has an issue with Voldy. Voldy exposed Aragog and 
> framed Hagrid.

Does Aragog know that TR is Voldie? Is he aware of what really happened 
during the original CS episode? I think the only way he would come back is if 
Hagrid needed him very badly. And then I think Hagrid would have to be in the 
FF. I don't see Aragog leaving the forrest.

> 
> LETHIFOLD
> Mentioned in "Fantastic Beasts". It kills wizards and witches. The 
> only thing that can stop it is the Patronus. Will one be sent to Ron 
> or Hermione (since they haven't mastered the Patronus yet?) Will one 
> be sent to Harry?

I admit that I don't have the school books, but from your description, it 
sounds very likely. 

> 
> BUCKBEAK
> Will he have a greater role than Sirius' mode of transportation?

Doubtful. He's wanted by the MOM. 

> 
> PEOPLE:
> BILL WEASLEY (GoF)
> Bill states that the last time he was at Hogwarts was 5 years ago.
> Is the purpose of that visit somehow important?

I think Bill and Charlie are both significant. The whole Weasley family has 
taken Harry in as an honorary member, and think they will all do what ever is 
necessary to help and protect him in the coming "darkness."

> 
> VIKTOR KRUM
> Good-guy? Bad-guy? Somewhere in-between?

I think there's a lot to Viktor that hasn't been discussed. The fact that JKR 
keeps comparing and contrasting Viktor's physical traits isn't something that 
should be ignore. For example, she talks about how skinny he is, how his 
shoulders slump, and how he walks with his feat turned out. But she then 
talks about how gracefully he flies, and how he jumps into freezing water 
(which takes some nerve and endurance, not to mention fortitude).

> 
> THE MCKINNONS
> Wizard family mentioned by Hagrid in SS/PS and killed during the 
> Voldy years. 

Just Hagrid chit-chat, IMHO.

> 
> DURSLEYS: PHYSICAL FEATURES AND MAGICAL INCIDENTS
> SS/PS The Dursleys are given almost animal-like physical 
> descriptions. Dudley is pig-like. Petunia with her long neck, blonde 
> hair, and horse-like face, is giraffe-like. Vernon is description is 
> reminiscent of a bull, IMO. SS, PoA, and GoF, some magical incident 
> physically affected a Dursley. Aunt Marge inflated. Dudley has had a 
> piggy-tail and a ton-tongue. Are the animal-like physical 
> descriptions a clue to further Dursley related magical incidents? 

I don't think so. I think the animal descriptions are used because they paint 
such a vivid picture of one's looks and mannerisms. It's easy to picture 
Dudley being pig-like, and Petunia having a horse-esque face. 

> 
> BERTHA JORKIN
> Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?

I like the Sirius theories!

> 
> HOGWARTS STUDENTS: MUGGLE-BORNS, HALF-MUGGLES, PURE-BLOODS
> The Muggle-borns seem to get most of the Slytherin-minded attention. 
> But, Ginny Weasley's possession by Tom Riddle's Diary showed that the 
> pure-bloods aren't really "safe" (Cedric seemed to come from a 
> wizarding family too). When all is said and done, are the Pure-bloods 
> more high-risk than the Muggle-borns or half-Muggles?

I don't think anyone is really safe!

> 
> DAEDULUS DIGGLE
> Diggle was mentioned twice in SS (akin to Mungdungus Fletcher who was 
> mentioned in CoS and GoF). Red flag? Red herring?

I think JKR just likes to say "Daedalus Diggle."   :-)

> 
> OBJECTS:
> OPAL NECKLACE (CoS, GoF)
> In Borgin and Burke's shop, there was a cursed opal necklace. Madame 
> Maxime wears an opal necklace in GoF. Assuming that they are the same 
> necklace, is the opal necklace a red flag or red herring?

There is a lot of lore about opals. Many superstitious types won't even wear 
them. They are known to bring back luck to some, and there are many known to 
be "cursed." Perhaps JKR is fascinated with gem lore, and put opals on Maxime 
to show her courage?

> 
> "THE MONSTER BOOK OF MONSTERS"
> Will the biting book that can only be calmed by tickling its spine 
> play an important role?

Doubtful. I think that one was comic relief.

> 
> THE SNEAKOSCOPE
> When last we heard of it, it was in Harry's trunk (GoF)

Again, I think it was comic relief.

> 
> WIZARD CANDY
> BERTIE BOTT'S EVERY FLAVOR BEANS
> Don't know exactly why, but for some reason I don't trust their 
> presence in the books. There's something mildly sinister about them.
> CHOCOLATE FROGS
> Ditto for the frogs.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the candy. While they may seem 
eccentric, I don't think that candy is evil.

> 
> THE PHOTO ALBUM
> Hagrid sent owls to James and Lily's school friends for photos. Harry 
> notices Sirius in the wedding photos. Any other friends/foes lurking 
> about in them? Will Harry met these school friends?

I wondered about that myself. Another thing I wonder about are Harry's 
grandparents and godmother. Are these people still alive (or in the case of a 
godmother, does he have one?). I would hope that Harry would learn a little 
bit more about his mother's days at Hogwarts. Who her friends were, how she 
spent her time. 

> 
> UNFOGGING THE FUTURE:
> CENTAURS' PROPHECIES (SS/PS)
> "Mars is unusually bright tonight" (Fulfilled in SS/PS, but does it 
> still apply?)
> "Always the innocent are the first victims. So it has been for ages 
> past, so it is now."
> "The forest [Forbidden Forest] hides many secrets."
> 
> DIVINATION/FORTUNE-TELLING CREDIBILITY
> In SS/PS, Harry tells Hermione of the Centaur's prophecies. Hermione 
> replies the prophecies sounded like fortune-telling, which McGonagall 
> says is an inaccurate magical art. In PoA, we are introduced to 
> Professor Trelawney and exposed to more of McGonagall's opinion of 
> divination. Are we being set up to believe that divination is 
> inaccurate, when it really isn't? Or is Rowling being honest with us 
> about the inaccuracy of divination?
> 
> TRELAWNEY'S PREDICTIONS
> This is a sub-group of divination credibility. But Trelawney's 
> Christmas Lunch prediction in PoA was that whoever rose from the 
> table first would be the first to die. Harry and Ron rose 
> simultaneously. Most of Trelawney's predictions are partially correct 
> (Parvati's "beware of a red-haired man", when Padma was Ron's date 
> for the Yule Ball). Is the Christmas Dinner prediction a red flag or 
> a red herring? Will Ron and Harry be the only survivors of those 
> seated at the table? Will Ron and Harry cause a death?

I've been someone disappointed with JKR's use of divination in the books. I 
think she trivializes the importance it has in some religions and practices. 
Sure, there are kooks like Trelawney, but they are exceptions, not rules. I 
hope in future books, Harry finds someone who treats divination with some 
respect, and shows him the way it could be.

> 
> PLACES:
> GODRIC'S HOLLOW
> Site of the first Voldy-Harry battle. Could it be the final 
> battleground?

I find it interesting that they lived in Godric's Hollow. Any relation to 
Godric Gryffindor?

> 
> FORBIDDEN FOREST
> Aragog's domicile, the Flying Ford Anglia's sylvan garage. The 
> Centaurs said it held many secrets. Have we learned all of them?

I hope not! I like to see it again!

> 
> HOGWARTS CASTLE
> Magical castle with plenty of magical rooms, including one that Harry 
> hasn't found yet. Is Hogwarts the site of the final battle?

That would be kind of cheesy, IMHO. 

> 
> DUMBLEDORE'S OFFICE
> It houses the penseive, Godric Gryffindor's sword, the Sorting Hat 
> and Fawkes. Will Harry find anymore useful things in there (with the 
> exception of Dumbledore of course) 

I hope Harry pokes around in there some more. I think there are some 
interesting things to be found. As an aside, I'd like to see Harry use the 
pensieve to see what his mom and dad were like at Hogwarts.

> 
> SNAPE'S OFFICE
> In PoA, Harry noticed Snape had more jars of potion materials than in 
> CoS. Are these routine supplies or is Snape stocking up for something 
> else?

My guess, stocking up. I think the teachers are more aware of what's coming 
than they let on.

> 
> MALFOY HOUSE
> The secret room in which Malfoy hides Dark magic items. 

I would *so* love to know what's in there! I wouldn't be surprised if Arthur 
doesn't lead a raid.  :-)

> 
> KNOCKTURN ALLEY
> Was Harry's visit a one-time thing?

He'll be back. I have a feeling he's going to need something from there in 
order to beat Voldie.

> 
> CURSES/SPELLS/CHARMS/POTIONS/ETC.
> UNFORGIVABLE CURSES
> Will Harry use one or all of them? Will Ron and or Hermione?

I've tossed this around a lot. I think that eventually they'll have to. I 
don't see the next couple of years being very good for the kids.

> 
> THE 12 USES OF DRAGONS BLOOD
> Will they come in handy?

They can't hurt.

> 
> POLYJUICE POTION
> PJP has been used twice in the series. Will it rear its ugly head 
> again?

Ugh, I hope not. It's kind of cheesy, IMHO. I like to see other kinds of 
potions.


Toby



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jheen at netzero.net  Mon May 21 03:56:46 2001
From: jheen at netzero.net (Genevieve Pratt)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:56:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Presents...
References: <20010521032224.54439.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004501c0e1aa$0e5957c0$59e91a41@mmcable.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19077

Amber asked:
> Why doesn't Hermione get any birthday or Christmas presents in the HP
books?
<snipped rest of rant>

IIRC, Jo has come out and said in one of the interviews that they do
exchange gifts, but that she doesn't write that in because if she wrote
everything like that in, the book would be too large to be manageable and
that it really wasn't necessary to the plot. I think she said that at the
same time she gave us Ron's and Hermoine's birthdays back in March, but heck
if I can recall the interview or who it was with. Someone want to help me
out here?

Now, why she didn't just add the one line like you suggest, I dunno. I do
agree that it would be nice to see that sort of thing mentioned in the book,
just to see Harry treat his friends right. But I guess I'll just have to
content myself with the knowledge that it's happening, just not where we've
seen it so far.

Genevieve




From devika261 at aol.com  Mon May 21 03:54:23 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:54:23 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Presents...Ron
Message-ID: <e3.14e7c7fd.2839eb73@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19078

In a message dated Sun, 20 May 2001 11:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Amber <reanna20 at yahoo.com> writes:

<< 
There is something that has been...well...bothering me for awhile. Why
doesn't Hermione get any birthday or Christmas presents in the HP
books? I mean, we *always* hear what Harry gets for Christmas and his
birthday. And he always gets something from Ron and Hermione. In fact,
in COS Hermione goes into the boys dormitory to give Ron and Harry her
gifts but there's absolutely NO mention of Hermione getting anything!
And Ron was in the same boat until...erm...I think GOF. Harry got Ron a
Chudley Cannon hat for Christmas. Granted, Harry got both Hermione and
Ron Omnioculars at the Quidditch Cup but still...that wasn't until the
fourth book!

We all know that Harry is not poor. He can certainly afford small gifts
for his friends. So why would JKR leave out any mention of this? How
hard is it to write an extra sentence saying "And Harry hoped that
Hermione would like the special edition of 'Hogwarts, A History' that
he got her." I suppose its nothing but this point consistently annoys
me! Hermione deserves a gift dangit, she's certainly put up with Harry
and Ron enough!


IIRC, JK said in a chat (I'm not sure which) that Harry does buy presents for Ron and Hermione but that she didn't have time to write what the presents were.  I think she just mentioned that Harry gave Ron the Chudley Cannons hat in GoF so that she could emphasize later how Ron feels about his family's poverty.  I'm thinking of the scene where Ron remembers that the gold he paid Harry for the Omnioculars was leprechaun gold that disappeared later.  He tells Harry that Harry shouldn't have given him the hat, and then he says, "I hate being poor."  I don't have my book with me, so I can't give you the exact scene, but I'm sure you know. 

Just a thought (sorry if this has been covered already, I'm pretty new to this list): I'm reasonably sure that Ron's feelings about his financial situation will play a role later.  I also have a feeling that he may be somehow tempted by the Dark Side.  Maybe nothing as tacky as bribery, but Ron is already jealous of Harry and his money, as well as his fame.  And I don't know how many people agree with me, but I don't think that Harry and Ron's argument in GoF got rid of all of Ron's pent-up jealousy and anger.  I can't help but see it as a preview of conflicts to come (although I would like to think that everything will just be ok between Harry and Ron).  I do think that Harry and Ron's friendship is stronger than their differences, and I know that it will all work out in the end (I hope), but it seems that Ron may make some kind of decision in later books based on his hidden envy and resentment, and this would have more serious ramifications than his argument with Harry in Go!
F.
Devika

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From teeravec at fas.harvard.edu  Mon May 21 04:37:13 2001
From: teeravec at fas.harvard.edu (Samaporn Teeravechyan)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:37:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trelawney and divination
In-Reply-To: <55.15caaffa.2839e872@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010521003713.008728cc@pop.fas.harvard.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19079

>> TRELAWNEY'S PREDICTIONS
>> This is a sub-group of divination credibility. But Trelawney's 
>> Christmas Lunch prediction in PoA was that whoever rose from the 
>> table first would be the first to die. Harry and Ron rose 
>> simultaneously. Most of Trelawney's predictions are partially correct 
>> (Parvati's "beware of a red-haired man", when Padma was Ron's date 
>> for the Yule Ball). Is the Christmas Dinner prediction a red flag or 
>> a red herring? Will Ron and Harry be the only survivors of those 
>> seated at the table? Will Ron and Harry cause a death?
>
>I've been someone disappointed with JKR's use of divination in the books. I 
>think she trivializes the importance it has in some religions and practices. 
>Sure, there are kooks like Trelawney, but they are exceptions, not rules. I 
>hope in future books, Harry finds someone who treats divination with some 
>respect, and shows him the way it could be.

Perhaps JKR trivialises Trelawney more than divination itself. The fact
that she has made predictions which can be argued to be true could mean
that she does see the future ... but is just rather weak at interpreting
what her 'inner eye' shows her. From the way Trelawney is characterised, I
wouldn't be surprised if the quality of her mental filter is somewhat flimsy. 

My guess is, in one way or another, her predictions will come true.
Including, I might add, the ominous death prediction - with a twist, though.

Samaporn



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 05:32:18 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 05:32:18 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <55.15caaffa.2839e872@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ea992+p65n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19080

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/18/2001 12:47:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> absinthe at m... writes:
> 
> 
> > Rowling leaves a number of clues in her books that foreshadow 
events 
> > (red flags) in the upcoming ones, for example Mrs. Figg.
> 
> I'm sorry if I missed something, but what's the significance of Mrs. 
Figg, 
> other than being Harry's baby-sitter when they Dursley's went 
somewhere.
> > 
> > THE SNEAKOSCOPE
> > When last we heard of it, it was in Harry's trunk (GoF)
> 
> Again, I think it was comic relief.
> 
 
> Toby
>

Toby,  Mrs. Figg has now been explicitly identified in GoF, as 
Arabella Figg, "one of the old crowd", and confirmed by JKR in an 
online chat as the babysitter.  She is no longer red flag or red 
herring.  In all liklihood she is a member of the Order of the 
Phoenix, function of which to be made explicit in Book V.

The sneakoscope was not by any means comic relief.  It was a red flag 
during PoA, in that its alarms were always discounted, even though 
they were true.  I personally feel that its utility now is somewhat 
less than that of polyjuice potion, which the majority of posters to 
this message board would rather not see in future books (I still think 
Snape will use it to become Barty Jr., nyah, nyah!)

Haggridd




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 05:43:48 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <55.15caaffa.2839e872@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010521054348.12127.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19081

As far as divination is concerned, here I think JKR is
simply keeping her cards close.  She seems to have
done some very careful things with zodiac signs and
birthdays.  

Harry is a Leo, of course, a lion.  That fits with the
heir of Gryffindor possibility.  Hermione is a Virgo,
reputed to be obsessive workaholics and
perfectionists.  It is strongly implied (I wish I
could remember where) that Ron's birthday is in May,
possibly making him a Taurus (bullheaded--that fits)
or failing that, a Gemini (split personality--but not
as appropriate as the bull).  It is also stated
(possibly in the same place) that Ron is a mere eleven
months older than Ginny [footnote: poor Molly!]
putting her birthday in April, probably making her an
Aries.  

Aries and Leo are supposed to be the great love match
of the zodiac.  Could JKR be tipping us off as to some
final pairings?  It also makes sense for Aries and Leo
to be together because they're both fire signs (I
think that's the lingo).  Virgo and Taurus are also
compatible signs.  Or maybe I'm just giving her more
credit than she should have...hope not!



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From catlady at wicca.net  Mon May 21 07:14:35 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:14:35 -0700
Subject: The Marauders - Technology - The Photo Album - Ron's Birthday 
Message-ID: <3B08C05B.FCBFE65@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19082

Claire wrote:
> THE MARAUDERS!!!! I hate that title that people have
> given to James,  Sirius, Peter and Lupin. It makes them sound
> like a gang! They were FRIENDS! They wouldn't refer to
> themselves as a gang!

Count me in as one of the people who LIKES to call them the Marauders.
Yes, I recognize that it's pretty clear from canon that they didn't call
themselves the Marauders and may or may not have called themselves the
Magical Mischief Makers (THE MARAUDER'S MAP An Aid To Magical Mischief
Makers), but I am SURE that they did call themselves something, and
Marauders is as plausible as anything.

I'm a USAmerican, but I was born the same year as James, Sirius, Remus,
Peter, Severus, and Lily. In those days, 'gang' meant a group of people
who hang out together -- 'gangster' referred to old movies about Al
Capone's folks during Prohibition -- the Mafia was a gang, and the
Sharks and Jets from West Side Story were gangs, and the old ladies in
the Women's Alliance at church were "Mama's gang".

They were 11 when they started at Hogwarts. When I was that age and the
next couple of years, kids loved to form 'clubs' (or sometimes 'secret
societies') with names and logos and secret handshakes, and sometimes a
clubhouse if one of the members had a treehouse or playhouse in their
house's backyard.... Groups to which the parents would refer
affectionately as 'gangs'. [Mine was a Star Trek club for girls only.]

So I am certain that they made a name for their clique, and 'Marauders'
is as likely as any. What I want to know is what name the clique that
Severus ran with (Rozier, Wilkes, Lestrange, Avery, and the future Mrs.
Lestrange) chose for themselves.

Robert Carnegie wrote:
>  Is the hot water bit in GOF? (snip) worried about the age
> of the plumbing, on his "Mysteries and puzzles" page -
> and about where it goes, too.

Hot water bit in GoF? The prefects' bathroom? I think it's GoF that
tells that the toilets flush all the way into the lake (sometimes Myrtle
gets flushed along with the water), and I feel CERTAIN that it goes
through purification [water treatment] spells on the way!

> If wizards generally avoid the Muggle world - although
> Voldemort somehow has one wizard and one Muggle
> parent (GOF may clarify) -

Seamus Finnegan also has one witch and one Muggle parent (mentioned in
SS/PS). This appears to be not uncommon -- Ron said If we hadn't
intermarried with Muggles, we would have died out. While old Archie in
GoF probably has never had any more contact with Muggles than passing
them at King's Cross on the way to Platform 9.75, and Arthur Weasley
seems not all that much better informed, I am CERTAIN that other wizards
and witches have a great deal more contact with the Muggle world --
enough to have love affairs and marriages, enough to acquire Muggle
money that they can change to wizarding money at Gringotts. And they can
have a great deal of violation of the laws of wizarding secrecy, as long
as they don't buy an ad in the DAILY PROPHET to announce what they're
doing -- anything from having their Muggle friends as guests in their
homes (a way for Muggles to be exposed to magic devices) to using magic
in assist in robbing or burglarizing Muggles...

> But don't you think that wizard Spellegraph might have used
> wires? One would write a letter, clip it onto the wire, and
> enchant it to be carried away to its destination. (snip)
>  wizard's wireless sound radio.  I presume that it comes
> in Auditory Magic and Fidelity Magic versions, while wizard
> engineers have high hopes for a new prestidigital system?

Auditory Magic, Fidelity Magic, prestigital system are cute. (That is a
good thing.) But I can't imagine WHY Spellegraph would have any use for
wires -- the quill at the receiving station is enchanted so that it
writes the same message as a hand is writing with the quill at the
sending station. Altho' there is some limitation on that old system such
that only trained operators can use the quills...

Toby wrote:
> > THE PHOTO ALBUM (snip)
> Another thing I wonder about are Harry's grandparents
> and godmother. Are these people still alive (or in the case of
> a godmother, does he have one?).

Dumbledore told McGonagall that he had to leave baby Harry with the
Dursleys because they are the only family he has left. This strongly
suggests that Lily and Petunia had no other siblings (two children in a
family isn't unusual), that Lily and Petunia's parents are dead (did
Petunia kill them in a snit of jealousy over their favoritism of Lily?),
that Lily was not the granddaughter of Mr Weasley's father nor the
half-sister of Severus Snape, and  that James's parents and relatives
were all dead, or something else that made them no longer family.

Barbara Purdom wrote:
> It is strongly implied (I wish I could remember where)
> that Ron's birthday is in May, possibly making him a
> Taurus (bullheaded--that fits) or failing that, a Gemini
> (split personality--but not as appropriate as the bull).
> It is also stated (possibly in the same place) that Ron
> is a mere eleven months older than Ginny [footnote:
> poor Molly!] putting her birthday in April, probably
> making her an Aries.

I agree that Ron has a Taurus personality, but JKR said in a chat that
his birthday is in March. I think she said March First, which is a
Pisces, which he sure doesn't act like.

I don't recall any place that said that Ginny is only 11 months younger
than Ron -- it is not all that unusual for the second child to be 11
months younger than the first (my Tim and his next brother, for
example), because many women have a phase of extreme horniness (spelling
checker wisely wanted to change that to hormones) two months after
giving birth, and don't realize that they've gotten their fertility back
already. However, it seems unlikely that that would take her by surprise
after 6 children already.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon May 21 08:01:19 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:01:19 -0000
Subject: Peter + Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <9e9jqp+lrp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eai0f+6l0d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19083

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
Rita wrote:
> > There has been much talk of why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw. It 
is 
> > generally agreed that, much as she loves books and loves to just 
know 
> > stuff, she loves even more to use her knowledge to save the 
world, 
> > and that Ravenclaws tend to be more passive than she is. Who else 
> > do you think is in the wrong House? Btw, Hermione wanted to be in 
> > Gryffindor (she said so on the train) and Draco wanted to be in 
> > Slytherin, and I suspect that the Sorting Hat takes the student's 
> > desire into consideration as well as personality.

Robert wrote:
> On reflection, you're right.  The hat does conduct a dialogue with
> each student; it pointed out to Harry the advantages of Slytherin;
> it took a long time over Neville - he was my other misplacement,
> I'd have put him in Hufflepuff.  I'd guess that while the hat has
> the final say, it probably lets everyone into the house that they
> want to go in, unless the candidate is totally unsuited to the House
> ethic.  Let's say that the hat decided to give both Harry and 
Neville
> the chance to try to live up to Gryffindor standards.  And before
> hat, it gave Pettigrew a chance, too, but in the end he flunked.
> 
> And the difference it makes to Neville, I suppose, is that he's
> encouraged by the others in PS to stand up to Malfoy's gang.  That
> probably wouldn't happen if he was in Hufflepuff.
> 

I think that it's slightly more complicated than that.  I think that 
the hat only has this dialogue with students it finds harder to 
place.  For instance, it considered Harry for Slytherin, and Harry 
made it perfectly clear that is not what he wanted. But I think that 
the Hat would surely override the wishes of the students if they are 
unsuited to the house they want to be in.  Otherwise, Hufflepuff 
would probably be empty, as not many people seem to want to be in 
it.  I also don't think that we have seen enough of Neville yet to 
establish whether he belongs in Gryffindor or not.

BTW: it has been suggested that Neville has had a memory charm 
performed on him.  I had never really thought about this before, but 
it makes sense.  I am listening to the audio versions a lot, and 
whenever Neville is described, JKR always draws attention to his bad 
memory.  Perhaps Neville is only an ineffective wizard because he has 
this memory problem - and perhaps the hat can see the potential in 
him ie. see beyond the reality of Neville the forgetful boy and see 
what he was truly like.  

Catherine




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Mon May 21 08:39:42 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:39:42 -0000
Subject: Sneakoscope and PJP (was Red Flags, Red Herrings)
In-Reply-To: <9ea992+p65n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eak8e+jfh7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19084

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > > THE SNEAKOSCOPE
> > > When last we heard of it, it was in Harry's trunk (GoF)
> > 
> > Again, I think it was comic relief.
> > 
>  
> > Toby
> 
> The sneakoscope was not by any means comic relief.  It was a red 
flag 
> during PoA, in that its alarms were always discounted, even though 
> they were true.  I personally feel that its utility now is somewhat 
> less than that of polyjuice potion, which the majority of posters 
to 
> this message board would rather not see in future books (I still 
think 
> Snape will use it to become Barty Jr., nyah, nyah!)
> 
> Haggridd

I believe the sneakoscope will still play a role, because H, H & R 
have not yet realised that it works.  My guess is that Hermione will 
twig that it does, but Ron will pooh-pooh this, preventing Harry from 
suspecting something important that we the readers will see.

As for PJP, I too hope it doesn't figure (worldwide shortage of 
boomslang?), but it's going to be hard to avoid as a hypothesis.  
Combined with apparating and the imperius curse, nothing can be what 
it seems, so we will need the 'scope and Crookshanks.  No wonder Mad-
eye has a foe glass.

One person I would like to see more of is Ludo's brother Otto, he of 
the lawnmower with unnatural powers

David




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Mon May 21 11:16:12 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 07:16:12 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trelawney and divination
Message-ID: <be.14d68bbb.283a52fc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19085

In a message dated 5/21/2001 12:40:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
teeravec at fas.harvard.edu writes:


> Perhaps JKR trivialises Trelawney more than divination itself. The fact
> that she has made predictions which can be argued to be true could mean
> that she does see the future ... but is just rather weak at interpreting
> what her 'inner eye' shows her. From the way Trelawney is characterised, I
> wouldn't be surprised if the quality of her mental filter is somewhat 
> flimsy. 

That's a definite possibility. Perhaps she's just taught divination too long, 
and she's getting her wires crossed. However, I see her "black dog" 
predictions as being correct. A black dog *did* come into Harry's life, only 
it wasn't a Grim, it was his godfather. Maybe that goes along with what 
you're saying as well, that she did see the dog, but misunderstood what it 
was. 

The other "nit pick" I have has to do with Harry and Ron's star charts. How 
could she not know that they made everything up? Is she that dim? I thought 
it was pretty obvious.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Mon May 21 11:20:22 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 07:20:22 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Red Herrings
Message-ID: <5b.16360d04.283a53f6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19086

In a message dated 5/21/2001 1:32:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com writes:


> Toby, Mrs. Figg has now been explicitly identified in GoF, as 
> Arabella Figg, "one of the old crowd", and confirmed by JKR in an 
> online chat as the babysitter.  She is no longer red flag or red 
> herring.  In all liklihood she is a member of the Order of the 
> Phoenix, function of which to be made explicit in Book V.

I feel really non-observant.   :-)  Thanks for clueing me in. I'll have to 
re-read GoF again.

> 
> The sneakoscope was not by any means comic relief.  It was a red flag 
> during PoA, in that its alarms were always discounted, even though 
> they were true.  I personally feel that its utility now is somewhat 
> less than that of polyjuice potion, which the majority of posters to 
> this message board would rather not see in future books (I still think 
> Snape will use it to become Barty Jr., nyah, nyah!)
> 

I was under the impression that the one that Ron gave Harry was more of a 
"toy" version of the real thing. Am I wrong? I don't remember what I read 
that makes me think this...I'll have to consult PoA again. 

As far as PJP goes, that's an interesting idea. I can't wait to see how that 
all plays out.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Mon May 21 11:24:19 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 07:24:19 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Red Flags, Red Herrings
Message-ID: <ce.14f79d08.283a54e3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19087

In a message dated 5/21/2001 1:45:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
blpurdom at yahoo.com writes:


> Or maybe I'm just giving her more
> credit than she should have...hope not!

I think these are all excellent summaries. Harry being a Leo also attests for 
his stubbornness and the reason why he and Ron were so unbending with each 
other in GoF. If Ron is a Taurus, he has his own sense of stubbornness as 
well. Ron's much more of a Taurus than a Gemini. The only real Gemini trait 
has is his great sense of logic that makes him such an awesome chess player.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 12:14:23 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:14:23 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e9tpf+8cp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eb0qv+tjjb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19088

> > BERTHA JORKIN
> > Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?
> 
> Ah....I like this question.  I use to think it was Snape but I now 
> lean toward this being Sirius.  As I stated on the *Snapesfans* 
site, 
> Sirius comments at two different times about how nosy Bertha was.  
> Why should Sirius care that Bertha caught him kissing Florence 
unless 
> Florence was Snape's girl (or someone else's) and he didn't want 
> Snape to find out.  As you can tell, I am not a Lily/Snape 
believer.  
> Anyway, if Sirius kisses Snape's girl, I don't imagine Snape would 
be 
> very happy about that.  Also, after that kiss Florence would 
realize 
> that there could be no other for her except Severus......the real 
man 
> at Hogwarts! 
>  


 I've had a very similar thought floating around my head for ages. 
There just seems to be more going on in the conflict between Sirius 
and Snape compared to the one between James and Snape in my opinion. 
And an argument over the mysterious Florence had ocured to me too 
(the Lily thing never happened). Finally someone has the same 
theories, possibly if I point it out to my friends they'll stop 
giving me funny looks. 

 Yay I'm not mad, or perhaps we're both insane.

 Jen

 Member of the SAS (Snape appreciation society)




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon May 21 12:38:04 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:38:04 -0000
Subject: Remus on train - Words - Hermione - JKR - Voldemort - Magic - Harry  compared to Tom - more
In-Reply-To: <3B05EBE9.8F441D@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9eb27c+gp8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19089

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:

> 
> Blaise wrote:
> > Incidentally, if anyone has a nice up-to-date list of all the
> > chats/interviews which JKR has taken part in and are to be
> > found online, I'd love to see it.
> 
> Steve Vander Ark has a list of some of the chats/interviews on his
> Lexicon website.

The chats I have linked on my "sources of Lexicon information" page 
are the main ones, the ones where JKR says more than just a rehash of 
the usual stuff ("I thought him up on a train," "Yes, my daughter has 
read the books," that sort of stuff.) I'm always on the lookout for 
more useful interviews and chats. I haven't found any lately, and 
Doreen did a nice job for me of searching and compiling, so I think 
we have pretty much all the important ones there. On the main Lexicon 
page, click on "Help/About" and you'll find a link to the "sources" 
page.


> 
> However, they have a class exercise of changing a hedgehog into a
> pincushion. A hedgehog that one assumes was not created by magic 
for use
> in class. Where does its soul go? Where does its life go? Is it 
murder?
> Lee indicated that its soul just hangs around waiting for it to be
> Transfigured back into some living being...

JKR has stated that things created from nothing by magic do not last 
(e.g. leprechaun gold) so by extension, I would guess that 
transformed creatures change back after a certain amount of time. We 
see this with Polyjuice potion, after all. The animal assumes a new, 
inanimate shape (and hopefully becomes unaware for the duration, for 
its sake). Then after an hour or two, it changes back into the 
animal, blinks a few times in surprise, then trundles off about its 
business.


> 
> Nethilia De Lobo wrote:
> > a basket of "funny custard-colored furballs that were
> > humming loudly". The first thing I thought about was Tribbles.
> > Anyone else think about that, or am I nuts?
> 
> Yes, my first thought was Tribbles. Now, of course, I know that 
they are
> actually Puffskeins.

That was the first thing I thought too. I wrote it that way last fall 
in the Lexicon's bestiary -- in fact, I wrote almost word for word 
what a lot of you wrote, something like: "I immediately thought of 
tribbles. Did anyone else think that?"  I can't imagine that JKR 
didn't do that on purpose. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
the Gringotts of HP information...except easier to get things out of
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From vderark at bccs.org  Mon May 21 12:53:13 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:53:13 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e5du6+mdbs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eb33p+1eir@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19090

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > BERTHA JORKIN
> > > Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?
> > 
> > Sirius, of course!  The Hunk of Hogwarts.  ;-)
> >  
> I'll second that!!  (Steve, can we have Florence added to the list 
of 
> all Hogwarts students in the lexicon please?)

You are all ASSUMING that Florence wasn't a teacher or other staff 
member then? Or ghost? Or a particularly friendly banshee? 

Sorry, I'm getting punchy. Too little sleep and too much to do before 
the end of the school year. I'm trying this morning to catch up on 
messages and respond to a few without sounding like a moron. You guys 
just wait...oh, the plans I have for the Lexicon when summer finally 
comes...

But not to worry, I'll put good old Florence in the Lexicon this 
morning. And fix the date for Bertha entering Hogwarts on the 
TimeLine, which I put two years AFTER Sirius et al. instead of 
before, for some stupid reason having to do with sleep deprivation or 
something.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
all correct except where it isn't yet
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 12:58:46 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 05:58:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Presents...
In-Reply-To: <004501c0e1aa$0e5957c0$59e91a41@mmcable.com>
Message-ID: <20010521125846.89813.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19091


--- Genevieve Pratt <jheen at netzero.net> wrote:
> IIRC, Jo has come out and said in one of the interviews that they do
> exchange gifts, but that she doesn't write that in because if she
> wrote everything like that in, the book would be too large to be
> manageable and that it really wasn't necessary to the plot. 

Hm, I didn't know that. Well, I still think she could give a mention
once in awhile. She doesn't have to say what Hermione and Ron got from
Harry in *every* book but it would be nice to hear an occassional
mention.

Quite frankly, I don't know why it bothers me so. All I know is that I
want to *see* evidence of Hermione and Ron getting presents. Go
figure...

~Amber


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the every approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 13:09:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:09:33 -0000
Subject: Scabbers - Azkaban - PJP - wizard mortality - broomsticks - "Flint" - RL on trai
Message-ID: <9eb42d+88k5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19092

Bugg wrote:

>Lupin would have recognized Scabbers immediately if he actually saw 
>him. Sirius recognized him from a picture in the paper. Lupin sees a 
>lump in Ron's pocket and thinks 'so, Ron has a rat, no big deal.' but 
>when he sees Peter on the map... CLICK 

Good point--I was forgetting that they can both recognize him easily. 
 Thanks, Bugg, and others who set me straight.

Parker wrote:

>Fudge went to see Sirius and Arthur Weasley went to 
>see ??, but they're ministry officials. 

Hmm, Arthur visiting someone in Azkaban--another red herring/red flag? 
 All the book says is "Dad had to go out to Azkaban one time" (PA 6), 
& I assumed it was on Ministry business, but maybe the Weasleys have 
an incarcerated relative no one knows about (including, perhaps, the W 
kids) . . . ?

Neth wrote:

> But after [Mrs Crouch] died, did she revert to herself?
> If so, why wasn't this noticed, and if not, why?

Catlady wrote:

>IIRC, we were told that the Dementors are blind and therefore can't 
tell
>one corpse from another.

I think we can also probably conclude that one doesn't revert after 
death, however.  There are so many humans at Azkaban--definitely 
prisoners, probably guards--that Crouch Sr. would never have imagined 
the plan would work.  Crouch Jr. says she took PJP up until she died, 
so the plotting Crouches obviously thought it was important for her to 
keep up appearances.  (It was a pretty risky plan anyway, IMO.  She 
could easily have fallen unconscious for hours before she died, and 
then her cover would've been blown.)

Stephanie wrote:

>How fast do you think you can disapparate?  Seems to me if you're 
>magical, and you realize your car is speeding toward a cliff, you 
>could just disapparte out of there.  Or, why wouldn't you just put an 
>anti-crash spell on the car -- the Knight Bus sure seems to have 
>one.  

I agree with you, but I took it to a different conclusion:  that Lily 
and James (or any other witches and wizards) =can= be killed by car 
crashes; it's just very unlikely because they have so many protections 
available to them that Muggles don't have.  My thinking is that if L & 
J ever had reason to ride in a car, they'd do one of the above, or put 
a shield charm around themselves or something.  But if they didn't do 
any of these things, a crash would maim or kill them just as it would 
a Muggle.

All the adventures we've seen suggest that wizard bodies are just like 
Muggle bodies--they can be destroyed by falling from great heights 
(unless they use magic, a la Neville, to bounce), poisoning, drowning, 
etc.  Otherwise why was everyone, including Dumbledore, terrified to 
see Harry fall off his broom?  Gravity, inertia, and other hazards of 
life work just fine on wizards unless a charm is specifically set to 
save them.

Stephanie wrote:

>Wizards don't even know what guns are, I remember someone 
>calling them "a kind of wand that Muggles use to kill each other," 
>which suggests to me that they are useless in the magical world.

I don't think they're useless in the sense that bullets don't work on 
wizards.  I just think they have never been adopted because wizards 
have a lot more defenses available to them (you're likely to fail if 
you try to shoot a wizard 'cause he'll shield himself)--also, they 
have better weapons available to them.  

I.e., guns are unknown for the same reason that computers, 
PlayStations, electricity, ballpoint pens, etc. are--the magical 
equivalents are better, so why bother keeping up with Muggle 
technology?  When you can make a quill leak- and blotproof, you have 
no desire to invent the fountain pen or later, the ballpoint, the way 
Muggles did.  Ditto for electric light--if you can conjure light from 
your wand, light and extinguish torches with a wave, etc., you'd never 
start thinking "this gaslight is really a pain--I'm going to invent 
something more convenient," as Muggles did (if indeed Edison was a 
Muggle).  When you have Avada Kedavra at your disposal, a Colt seems 
about as useful a weapon as a water pistol.

Catlady Rita wrote:

>I am
>thinking that McGonagall put something in her spell to keep it from
>being changed, but Voldy was a strong enough wizard to overpower it.

>It might have been simpler for him to simply remove the spell that
>McGonagall had put on them (Finite Incantatem), but then they
>wouldn't have been an obstacle to our Trio.

He might have suspended it so he could walk right by, then reinstated 
it so that if anyone tried to follow they'd be held up.

This is reminding me of my nomination for Silliest Plot Device:  those 
conveniently-placed broomsticks in the flying-keys chamber.  Does 
anyone have an explanation for why they would be there?  Their only 
purpose seems to be to make it easier for someone to break in (or get 
back out after having stolen the Stone).  I would love it if someone 
could point out a good, non-plot-deviceish reason.

Note on the term Flint:  it's for one of JKR's more famous errors (and 
best saves, IMO), but is also appropriate because of Flint's own 
stupidity.  The brilliant coinage, worthy of Lewis Carroll, is by 
Pippin, and that was her stated reasoning.  It was in Message 8359 if 
anyone wants to view the historic moment.  I sure hope someone does, 
or I just did 10 minutes of searching for no reason.

Stephanie wrote:

>"Once the remaining Weasleys and Hermione had joined them, Harry and 
>ROn led the way to the end of the train, passed the packed 
>compartments, to a carriage that looked quite empty.  They loaded the 
>trunks onto it, stowed Hedwig and Crookshanks in the luggage rack, 
>then went back outside to say goodbye to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley."

>So, Lupin could've seen Harry (and he'd probably recognize him 
>immediately since he looks so much like James -- though, of course, 
>I'd put my money on that Lupin has seen Harry plenty, as one of 
>the "Old Crowd" who would know Mrs. Figg and had been in the 
>Dursley's neighborhood) go into that partiular compartment and 
>stationed his sleeping self and tattered old suitcase there.

Whoa!  Stephanie solves the mystery!  Give that woman a Chocolate Frog 
(not an evil one, of course).  I have =never= seen anyone point this 
out, as many times as the "how big a coincidence is =that=?" issue has 
come up re: HRH going into Lupin's compartment.  If he does sneak into 
their compartment after they put their luggage there, he's almost 
surely faking sleep.

Re: recognizing Harry, in addition to saying  "you can't mistake him, 
he's a dead ringer for James," Dumbledore could have sent Lupin a 
photo.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------
 "We don't send people to Azkaban 
 just for blowing up their aunts!"
       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
----------------------------------------




From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Mon May 21 13:28:58 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:28:58 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Red Herrings
Message-ID: <20010521121748.B02051311B@postfix2.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19093

Hello

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com =====
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
>>
>> > >
>> > > BERTHA JORKIN
>> > > Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?

Have anyone considered if it might be Bill Weasley, I know it is a longshot, 
but Bill cant be that much younger than the Marauder year.
He have to know one or two things about curses with the job he got later on.

This probably isnt true but everyone seems to be positive that it was one from 
the marauder year.

If it was this however, perhaps it were James!

Snape implies that JP wasnt an angelic hero always, and ?doing a little 
harmless damage to a "spy" like Bertha if caught with someone other than Lily 
would definatly not, be beyond him.

Darreder

----------------------------------------------------
K?b, s?lg eller efterlys varer i det nye auktionshus p? nettet: http://www.ofir.dk/auktion
K?b ind p? nettet - pr?v det p? http://www.ofir.dk/shopping
F? din egen gratis email p? http://www.ofir.dk/mail




From margdean at erols.com  Mon May 21 12:49:34 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:49:34 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trelawney and divination
References: <3.0.2.32.20010521003713.008728cc@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <3B090EDE.BBC203F1@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19094

Samaporn Teeravechyan wrote:

> >I've been someone disappointed with JKR's use of divination in the books. I
> >think she trivializes the importance it has in some religions and practices.
> >Sure, there are kooks like Trelawney, but they are exceptions, not rules. I
> >hope in future books, Harry finds someone who treats divination with some
> >respect, and shows him the way it could be.
> 
> Perhaps JKR trivialises Trelawney more than divination itself. The fact
> that she has made predictions which can be argued to be true could mean
> that she does see the future ... but is just rather weak at interpreting
> what her 'inner eye' shows her. From the way Trelawney is characterised, I
> wouldn't be surprised if the quality of her mental filter is somewhat flimsy.

Well, you have to make allowances for the poor woman.  What we've
seen of her =genuine= predictions (i.e., the one Harry witnessed
where she fell into a trance and spoke with a different voice)
suggests that this particular gift is one that strikes, well,
unpredictably, and is not under the conscious control of the
seer.  And she somehow has to make a =living= with this?  Under
those circumstances, showmanship (to give it the most charitable
name) is just about her only option.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Mon May 21 13:39:21 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:39:21 -0000
Subject: Flitwick's broomsticks - "Flint" 
In-Reply-To: <9eb42d+88k5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eb5q9+uc5i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19095

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> This is reminding me of my nomination for Silliest Plot Device:  
those 
> conveniently-placed broomsticks in the flying-keys chamber.  Does 
> anyone have an explanation for why they would be there?  Their only 
> purpose seems to be to make it easier for someone to break in (or 
get 
> back out after having stolen the Stone).  I would love it if 
someone 
> could point out a good, non-plot-deviceish reason.

It isn't just the broomsticks.  Snape could have just put in the 
flaming gates and not bothered with the puzzle and bottles; the chess 
set could have been set at mate in one against visitors, etc.  
Presumably Dumbledore asked the professors to set their barriers so 
that it would be possible for the stone to be retrieved.  Dumbledore 
virtually admits as much in connection with the mirror.  The 
broomsticks are just the tools for that particular barrier.  The 
question is, was this just so as to get the stone back to the Flamels 
after the danger was over (why not get the Flamels to agree to 
destroy it earlier?), or was it for Harry (and friends) to find 
because Dumbledore wants him to face Voldemort?  Was it a trap for V 
that failed because he evaporated back to Albania (or wherever) when 
Quirrell died?

In other words, what was the point of all these elaborate defences 
when it was so easy to get rid of the stone afterwards?

> Note on the term Flint:  it's for one of JKR's more famous errors 
(and 
> best saves, IMO), but is also appropriate because of Flint's own 
> stupidity.  The brilliant coinage, worthy of Lewis Carroll, is by 
> Pippin, and that was her stated reasoning.  It was in Message 8359 
if 
> anyone wants to view the historic moment.  I sure hope someone 
does, 
> or I just did 10 minutes of searching for no reason.

Done - impossible not to, after an appeal like that

David
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> ----------------------------------------
>  "We don't send people to Azkaban 
>  just for blowing up their aunts!"
>        -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> ----------------------------------------




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon May 21 14:12:33 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:12:33 -0000
Subject: Flitwick's broomsticks - "Flint"
In-Reply-To: <9eb5q9+uc5i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eb7oh+jt1v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19096

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:

> (why not get the Flamels to agree to destroy it earlier?), 

I suppose that Dumbledore was in no hurry to lose his old friend, 
that he will miss his friend for the rest of his life (along 
with all the other dead people he misses).





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 14:12:40 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:12:40 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9eb0qv+tjjb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eb7oo+olgd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19097

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> > > BERTHA JORKIN
> > > Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?
> > 
> > Ah....I like this question.  I use to think it was Snape but I 
now 
> > lean toward this being Sirius.  As I stated on the *Snapesfans* 
> site, 
> > Sirius comments at two different times about how nosy Bertha 
was.  
> > Why should Sirius care that Bertha caught him kissing Florence 
> unless 
> > Florence was Snape's girl (or someone else's) and he didn't want 
> > Snape to find out.  As you can tell, I am not a Lily/Snape 
> believer.  
> > Anyway, if Sirius kisses Snape's girl, I don't imagine Snape 
would 
> be 
> > very happy about that.  Also, after that kiss Florence would 
> realize 
> > that there could be no other for her except Severus......the real 
> man 
> > at Hogwarts! 
> >  
> 
> 
>  I've had a very similar thought floating around my head for ages. 
> There just seems to be more going on in the conflict between Sirius 
> and Snape compared to the one between James and Snape in my 
opinion. 
> And an argument over the mysterious Florence had ocured to me too 
> (the Lily thing never happened). Finally someone has the same 
> theories, possibly if I point it out to my friends they'll stop 
> giving me funny looks. 
> 
>  Yay I'm not mad, or perhaps we're both insane.
> 
>  Jen
> 
>  Member of the SAS (Snape appreciation society)

Well, I am not a member of this society. My impression of Snape is of 
an extremely unattractive man, and when I extrapolate to teenage, he 
is even more repulsive. 
Sirius, OTOH, is an extremely attractive man. It is very unlikely , 
therefore, that they both had a thing going with the same girl. 
The way I see it, if Florence had a thing with Snape, Sirius wouldn't 
have touched her with a ten feet pole. If she was attractive enough 
for Sirius, then *she* wouldn't have touched Snape with a twenty feet 
pole. ;-P

Naama, who freely admits she believes in leagues when it comes to sex-
appeal..






From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 14:47:08 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:47:08 -0000
Subject: Sabbats and character birthdays (was Re: Ron's Birthday)
In-Reply-To: <3B08C05B.FCBFE65@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9eb9pc+6fuv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19098

Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> Barbara Purdom wrote:
> > It is strongly implied (I wish I could remember where) that
> > Ron's birthday is in May, possibly making him a Taurus 
> > (bullheaded--that fits) or failing that, a Gemini (split 
> > personality--but not as appropriate as the bull).  It is 
> > also stated (possibly in the same place) that Ron is a 
> > mere eleven months older than Ginny [footnote: poor Molly!] 
> > putting her birthday in April, probably making her an Aries.
> 
> I agree that Ron has a Taurus personality, but JKR said in a chat
> that his birthday is in March. I think she said March First, which
> is a Pisces, which he sure doesn't act like.

Is it possible that you are misremembering May 1st?

This is something I've thought about since seeing the discussion
on birthdays a long time back.  Is it possible that JKR wanted her
characters' birthdays to fall on the major Wiccan masses (sabbats)?

Consider:

Harry.......Jul 31    Lammas.................Jul 31/Aug  1
Hermione....Sep 19    Harvest Home....around Sep 21
Ron........(May? 1?)  Beltane (May Day)......Apr 30/May  1

If this theory is correct, then a birthday of May 1 for Ron seems
appropriate.  Does anyone else have any information about his
birthday or the specific caht in which JKR mentioned it??

....Craig




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon May 21 14:56:00 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:56:00 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sabbats and character birthdays (was Re: Ron' s Birthday)
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F9017@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19099

She said so in an interview - http://www.hpgalleries.com/c118.htm - ron's
birthday is March 1.
And Harry's birthday is the same as her own - July 31
Makes me think it's a coincidence. Does anyone know when her daugher
Jessica's birthday is? Does it relate to the character birthdays?

> Is it possible that you are misremembering May 1st?
> 
> This is something I've thought about since seeing the discussion
> on birthdays a long time back.  Is it possible that JKR wanted her
> characters' birthdays to fall on the major Wiccan masses (sabbats)?
> 
> Consider:
> 
> Harry.......Jul 31    Lammas.................Jul 31/Aug  1
> Hermione....Sep 19    Harvest Home....around Sep 21
> Ron........(May? 1?)  Beltane (May Day)......Apr 30/May  1
> 
> If this theory is correct, then a birthday of May 1 for Ron seems
> appropriate.  Does anyone else have any information about his
> birthday or the specific caht in which JKR mentioned it??



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 15:14:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:14:16 -0000
Subject: Too many topics to list
Message-ID: <9ebbc8+1hfe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19100

Robert wrote:

>Lupin's promise could also account for his not attacking Peter as
>soon as he transformed to wolf.

Lupin doesn't think too clearly in the middle of a transformation.  
Nor do werewolves necessarily attack every single human they come 
across; they must sometimes have other things they'd rather do that 
moment, like run, howl, or sprinkle a tree.  I don't think anything he 
does at that moment requires a rational explanation.

Robert again:

>Houses don't seem to mix much socially up to POA,
>an exception being Percy's Ravenclaw prefect girlfriend - I presume
>that prefects are set apart from their Houses, and have one prefects'
>common-room.

I don't think so--Percy is often seen in the common room (putting a 
damper on the fun, of course).  He does eat breakfast at her table, 
though (PA 13).  And we know prefects have their own bathroom[s], 
apparently mixed by house.

and again:

>someone objected to footage of The Film
>showing students with House badges on their robes, on the grounds
>that our friends see Penelope and don't recognise her as Ravenclaw
>by a badge - but upon Percy's first appearance in PS, it seems that
>prefects wear prefect badges.  I suggest that this is instead of
>house badges.

It's also something they just might not register.  They're looking for 
Slytherin, they're in the dungeons, they're in a rush--when they see 
someone they assume (hope) she's in Slytherin. 

Robert wrote:

>The electric broomstick, even the innovative design by that clever 
Mr. Dyson, seems to have
>missed the point...

Eh?  Explain?

Robert wrote:

>"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed 
American 
>office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
>Stupid Things Overheard)

>- on reflection, one also wonders why she read them _all_, in that 
case

Not to mention that she must be about 11 years old.

Rita wrote:

>Houses don't seem to mix much socially, but there are Doubles class

My inner nitpicker emerges (she's never far below the surface) to say 
that Double refers to time, not shared-with-another-house.  I asked 
the Brits some time back and they said so.  Also, Double Divination 
appears to have only Gryffindors in it (GF).

Rita wrote:

>There has been much talk of why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw. It is 
>generally agreed that, much as she loves books and loves to just know 
>stuff, she loves even more to use her knowledge to save the world, 
>and that Ravenclaws tend to be more passive than she is.

Also, there are many kinds of courage.  Hermione has plenty of 
physical courage, but even if she didn't, she has other kinds:  she's 
honest with herself and other people, she isn't cowed by ridicule, she 
stands up for her convictions, etc.  I've known people who fearlessly 
ice-climb but can't admit they're wrong or express their feelings.  I 
wouldn't term them particularly brave.

Marianne wrote:

>And IIRC, there's never any mention of vegetables, other than 
potatos.

Sprouts (bleah).  Somewhere in GF, when Hermione's stuffing herself 
before running off to the library.  The Lexicon, Bible of HP 
nitpickers everywhere, has a lot of information on food (see "Food and 
drink" under "The wizarding world"), though it doesn't yet list every 
dish served at Hogwarts.  Steve will of course quit his job and remedy 
that omission.

I agree with Claire on "Marauders."  There's no canon evidence thus 
far that MWPP (my preferred shorthand) called themselves "The 
Marauders."  The map is the Marauder's Map, not the Marauders'.  (OT, 
Claire, you appear never to have seen "The Trouble With Tribbles."  
You must go rent it immediately.  It's one of the funniest hours of 
television ever produced, IMNSHO--of course, you do have to like ST to 
enjoy it.)

little Alex wrote:

>I don't think of it as a club, more like, a secret society, a bit 
like... The Dead Poets Society.

--who were American.  I think Marauders sounds pretty clubbish too.  
Does a group of friends have to be a clique?  Heaven forbid.

But anyway, it might well have been in character for them to call 
themselves that (though I prefer to think otherwise), but it still 
isn't canon.

BTW, "the Order of the Phoenix" has entered fandom as the name of an 
anti-Voldemort league, often with the assumption that it goes back to 
the 70's.  This seems likely enough, but it isn't canon either.  The 
name of the book isn't even canon, for that matter, until it's 
published, though Jo probably wouldn't have spilled it unless she was 
pretty sure she wasn't going to change it.

Barbara, Ron's birthday is March 1, making him a Pisces (Comic Relief 
chat IIRC).

Amy Z
for L.O.O.N.

-----------------------------------------------------
  "I like them.  They're nice, they're soft, they're 
 furry, and they make a pleasant sound."
  "So would an ermine violin, Doctor, but I see no 
 advantage in having one." 
     --McCoy and Spock, "The Trouble with Tribbles"

  "Storage compartments?  Storage compartments?"
                             --Kirk, ditto
------------------------------------------------------




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 15:36:06 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:36:06 -0000
Subject: OK, scratch that theory :^)  (was Re: Sabbats and character birthdays)
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F9017@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9ebcl6+clps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19101

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> Craig wrote:
>
> > If this theory is correct, then a birthday of May 1 for Ron seems
> > appropriate.  Does anyone else have any information about his
> > birthday or the specific caht in which JKR mentioned it??

> She said so in an interview - http://www.hpgalleries.com/c118.htm
> - Ron's birthday is March 1.  And Harry's birthday is the same as
> her own - July 31.  Makes me think it's a coincidence.  Does anyone
> know when her daughter Jessica's birthday is? Does it relate to
> the character birthdays?

Thanks for the clarification.  Oh well, it would have been a cool
theory.  :^)

I like March 1 much more anyway with Ron being my favorite
character and being a February 28-er myself....

....Craig




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon May 21 15:55:55 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:55:55 -0000
Subject: Flitwick's broomsticks - "Flint"
In-Reply-To: <9eb5q9+uc5i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebdqb+jplc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19102

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > This is reminding me of my nomination for Silliest Plot Device:  
> those 
> > conveniently-placed broomsticks in the flying-keys chamber.  Does 
> > anyone have an explanation for why they would be there?  Their 
only 
> > purpose seems to be to make it easier for someone to break in (or 
> get 
> > back out after having stolen the Stone).  I would love it if 
> someone 
> > could point out a good, non-plot-deviceish reason.
> 
> It isn't just the broomsticks.  Snape could have just put in the 
> flaming gates and not bothered with the puzzle and bottles; the 
chess 
> set could have been set at mate in one against visitors, etc.  
> Presumably Dumbledore asked the professors to set their barriers so 
> that it would be possible for the stone to be retrieved.  
Dumbledore 
> virtually admits as much in connection with the mirror.  The 
> broomsticks are just the tools for that particular barrier.  The 
> question is, was this just so as to get the stone back to the 
Flamels 
> after the danger was over (why not get the Flamels to agree to 
> destroy it earlier?), or was it for Harry (and friends) to find 
> because Dumbledore wants him to face Voldemort?  Was it a trap for 
V 
> that failed because he evaporated back to Albania (or wherever) 
when 
> Quirrell died?

The other thing that concerns me about this whole episode is 
Dumbledore's rationale behind getting the stone from the mirror.  It 
doesn't make sense.  He says to Harry, "You see, only one who wanted 
to find the stone - find it, but not use it - would be able to get 
it, otherwise they'd just see themselves making gold or drinking 
Elixir of Life."  
But Quirrel doesn't see himself making gold or drinking Elixir of 
Life - he sees himself finding the stone and presenting it to his 
master.  So why didn't this work for him?

Catherine




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon May 21 15:58:35 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:58:35 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9ea0e0+ko8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebdvb+og96@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19103

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:
> > PLACES:
> > GODRIC'S HOLLOW
> > Site of the first Voldy-Harry battle. Could it be the final 
> > battleground?
> 
> While sometimes we seem to misinterpret JKR's intentions about 
> certain passages or phrases, I can't imagine that she would name a 
> place Godric's Hollow (after Godrick Griffyndor, I presume?), make 
it 
> the place where Voldemort kills Harry's parent die and is 
"defeated" 
> by Harry (if only temporarily), imply that Harry is the heir of 
> Griffyndor (or is that canon and I have forgotten?), and then NOT 
> make Godric's Hollow a significant site in a future book. Maybe not 
> the final battle, but something pretty important along the way.
> 

Well, when you put it like that, Belle, it is pretty convincing.  JKR 
does seem to be beating us over the head with the Godrics Hollow 
reference.  You make a convincing argument for the Hollow as a red 
flag, which leads me to wonder, in re to Milzs original post, that 
perhaps it is a red herring rather than a red flag.  

On the other hand, I am not sure about the basic premise of Milz 
post.  Now that I think about, I dont know if there any red herrings 
at all in the HP books -- perhaps this is a device that JKR does not 
use.

The books have contained several red flags -- i.e. items mentioned 
briefly that later turned out to be important, such as Sirius Black, 
HP and Voldys wands containing the same phoenix feather.  But have 
there been any red herrings so far, i.e. items mentioned briefly that 
later turned out to be UNimportant?  I cant think of any.  Anybody 
have any evidence one way or another (of course, it may be too early 
in the series to tell.)

--Joywitch




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon May 21 16:22:32 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:22:32 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9e3ivr+r152@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebfc8+blik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19104

Opals: I was born in October and one of the birthstones for that month 
is opal. Anyhow, I've been told its bad luck to wear opals if you 
weren't born in October.  When I first read GoF, Madame Maxime's opal 
necklace stuck me as suspicious because of the cursed opal necklace 
mentioned in CoS.

Sneakoscope: Harry's sneakoscope IS a toy. According to Ron, Bill said 
it was rubbish but it was squealing at the same time because Fred and 
George were playing a prank. It went off again when Ron was tying it 
to Errol's leg and Ron wasn't supposed to use Ron. The next time it 
went off was on the Hogwarts Express. For a toy, it seems pretty 
accurate, but Harry tucks it away in his trunk.

Arthur's visit to Azkaban: I assumed it was on Ministry business. But 
it does raise the question of why Arthur would need to visit Azkaban, 
when his office is the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts. Unless, Arthur was 
with another Ministry Department at the time.

Bill and Charlie: I agree that Charlie is significant, but we've seen 
how his expertise has come in handy (SS/PS and GoF). Bill, OTOH, is a 
curse-breaker for Gringotts-Egypt. "Curse-breaker" implies to me that 
he is skilled at DADA. I guess his visit to Hogwarts  five years ago 
could be Gringotts related. Maybe he was one of the Gringotts 
employees who escorted the Stone to Gringotts-London. But the guy 
works at Gringotts-Egypt, so that really doesn't make a whole lot of 
sense.

Aragog and his multi-limbed family: I have a feeling Aragog DOES know 
that Hagrid was framed. I don't have CoS with me, but IIRC, Aragog 
tells Ron and Harry that Hagrid visits him in the FF and that Hagrid 
was blamed for something he didn't do. So it's quite possible that 
Aragog knows TR is Voldy. 

Pigwidgeon: Okay, he's cute and friendly, but so was the monkey in 
"Raiders of the Lost Ark" until he gave a Nazi salute. (OT memory- the 
audience in the movie theater began booing the monkey.)

Florence-Sirius-Snape-?: Interesting thoughts about that. Again, Snape 
was my prime suspect. But the theories about Sirius are intriguing 
too. 

MORE NEW RED FLAGS/RED HERRINGS

OMNIOCULARS: Harry bought a pair at the World Cup. From their 
description they could be a useful tool, unless Harry stores it in his 
trunk too.

HOGWARTS GHOSTS: They're bound to play an important role in the future 
books. Myrtle seems to get around the Castle fairly well. (Was anyone 
else disturbed by her bathroom voyeurism in GoF?). IIRC, SS/PS 
mentioned about 20 ghosts. In addition to the House ghosts, Peeves, 
Prof. Binns and Myrtle, who are the others? 

HOGWARTS TUNNELS: Fred and George pointed out the ones Filch knew 
about, the one that was caved in, the one under the Whomping Willow 
and the one that lead straight into Honeydukes. More tunneling action 
ahead?

HERMIONE'S PARENTS: They're Muggle dentists. We had a glimpse of them 
in CoS and nothing more---so far.

PLACES TO RENDEZ VOUS AT HOGWARTS: So far, the greenhouses, the 
rosebushes and empty classrooms have been mentioned as smooching 
places for Hogwarts couples. Will we get to read the details of a 
Hogwarts-style date?
___

Joy asked about the premise for this thread and wondered if Rowling 
does use the red herring device. Right now it's hard to say if she is 
leading us down the garden path with some things because there are 3 
more books left to tie up loose ends. This thread is just my 
ponderings about things (little and not-so-little) mentioned in the 
books that might reappear or might not reappear later in the series. I 
jotted these things down because this list tends to concentrate on the 
"obvious" things such as Harry's green eyes, the 
Snape-Potter-Black-Lupin-Pettigrew relationship, the Voldy-Potter 
relationship, etc (not criticizing anyone, just pointing it out). 
However, a bunch of "little things" are scattered throughout the 
books, some of them are significant such as the photo album and some 
might not have any significance at all, like the opal necklace, 
because the completed series hasn't been published. I just think it's 
fun to see what things will reappear or will be explained in the 
coming books and what will not.
 
:-)Milz





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 17:12:17 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:12:17 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Viktor Krum
In-Reply-To: <55.15caaffa.2839e872@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ebi9h+q7mg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19105

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:
> > 
> > VIKTOR KRUM
> > Good-guy? Bad-guy? Somewhere in-between?
> 
> I think there's a lot to Viktor that hasn't been discussed. The 
fact that JKR 
> keeps comparing and contrasting Viktor's physical traits isn't 
something that 
> should be ignore. For example, she talks about how skinny he is, 
how his 
> shoulders slump, and how he walks with his feat turned out. But she 
then 
> talks about how gracefully he flies, and how he jumps into freezing 
water 
> (which takes some nerve and endurance, not to mention fortitude).
> 

I too think there's a lot to Viktor that hasn't been discussed.  I 
don't think he is just someone JKR added to get Ron jealous.  There 
is something to this guy.  Like you said, JKR keeps talking about his 
physical appearance.  Plus, there is more to the fact he can jump 
into freezing water.  It's not just because of the area he is from.  
He is different in some way.

When McGonagall first sees Harry fly she mentions she had never seen 
anyone fly like that.  Harry pretty much says the same thing when he 
sees Krum. Surely there is more to this then just a possible future 
Quidditch match between Harry and Krum. I personally believe there is 
a reason why Harry is a great flyer.  There's just something special 
about Harry........

Koinonia  






From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 17:21:59 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:21:59 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9eb7oo+olgd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebirn+34ar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19106

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:


koinonia wrtoe:
> > > > BERTHA JORKIN
> > > > Who did Bertha see kissing Florence behind the greenhouse?
> > > 
> > > Ah....I like this question.  I use to think it was Snape but I 
> now 
> > > lean toward this being Sirius.  As I stated on the *Snapesfans* 
> > site, 
> > > Sirius comments at two different times about how nosy Bertha 
> was.  
> > > Why should Sirius care that Bertha caught him kissing Florence 
> > unless 
> > > Florence was Snape's girl (or someone else's) and he didn't 
want 
> > > Snape to find out.  As you can tell, I am not a Lily/Snape 
> > believer.  
> > > Anyway, if Sirius kisses Snape's girl, I don't imagine Snape 
> would 
> > be 
> > > very happy about that.  Also, after that kiss Florence would 
> > realize 
> > > that there could be no other for her except Severus......the 
real 
> > man 
> > > at Hogwarts!
 
  
jenfold wrote:
 
> >  I've had a very similar thought floating around my head for 
ages. 
> > There just seems to be more going on in the conflict between 
Sirius 
> > and Snape compared to the one between James and Snape in my 
> opinion. 
> > And an argument over the mysterious Florence had ocured to me too 
> > (the Lily thing never happened). Finally someone has the same 
> > theories, possibly if I point it out to my friends they'll stop 
> > giving me funny looks. 
> > 
> >  Yay I'm not mad, or perhaps we're both insane.
> > 
> >  Jen
> > 
> >  Member of the SAS (Snape appreciation society)


naama_ wrote: 
> Well, I am not a member of this society. My impression of Snape is 
of 
> an extremely unattractive man, and when I extrapolate to teenage, 
he 
> is even more repulsive. 
> Sirius, OTOH, is an extremely attractive man. It is very unlikely , 
> therefore, that they both had a thing going with the same girl. 
> The way I see it, if Florence had a thing with Snape, Sirius 
wouldn't 
> have touched her with a ten feet pole. If she was attractive enough 
> for Sirius, then *she* wouldn't have touched Snape with a twenty 
feet 
> pole. ;-P
> 
> Naama, who freely admits she believes in leagues when it comes to 
sex-
> appeal..


What?  Florence wouldn't have touched Snape with a twenty foot pole?
;-)  

I don't know about that!  Boy, I sure get tired of hearing how great 
James, Remus, and Sirius were/are.  Aaarrrggghhhh!  Give me Snape any 
old day.  I need to join SAS! Or that insane leauge.  Immediately!

Seriously, I don't think of Snape as being extremely ugly in his teen 
years or now.  I think his actions make him appear uglier then he 
is.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think JKR makes 
Snape out to be so unattractive and mean and then she is going to 
surprise us all when we find out Snape was in love and was loved.  
Right now I do lean toward Sirius/Snape/Florence.  I do find it funny 
that Sirius keeps complaining about nosy Bertha!  C'mon, surely a 
Sirius fan can admit that Sirius wouldn't have thought twice about 
putting a curse on someone :-)

Koinonia 




From manchisco at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 17:48:27 2001
From: manchisco at yahoo.com (Mags)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:48:27 -0000
Subject: Peter + Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <9e9jqp+lrp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebkdb+gml3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19107

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> The hat does conduct a dialogue with
> each student; it pointed out to Harry the advantages of Slytherin;
> it took a long time over Neville - he was my other misplacement,
> I'd have put him in Hufflepuff.

Why would you put Neville in Hufflepuff?  I thought Hufflepuff were 
supposed to be hard workers, and although he's certainly not lazy I 
wouldn't say we see him working incredibly hard.  Also, I think the 
things Neville has been through with his parents make him a lot more 
worthy to be in Gryffindor than we might think at first.  But yes, I 
do have to admit I had wondered why the Hat put him there before I 
read GoF.

Mags xx




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 18:29:07 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:29:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville/Sorting Hat; Lupin's observations and Hermione's narcolepsy
In-Reply-To: <9ebkdb+gml3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521182907.18856.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19108

1. Neville's House

Actually, Dumbledore illuminates us at the end of SS
as to the appropriateness of Neville's placement when
he awards him the final 10 points that push Gryffindor
into first place for the House Cup, saying, "There are
all kinds of courage....It takes a great deal of
bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much
to stand up to our friends."

2. Lupin's Observations

A great deal is being made about Lupin noticing Peter
Pettigrew on the Marauder's Map.  But I was just
reading this section of PoA to my son last night, and
I noticed a problem (I think).  Hermione wants to know
how Lupin knew what he knew, and he tells them that he
saw three of them (on the map) going to Hagrid's, but
four coming back.  The problem I'm having is that the
time-traveling Harry and Hermione are lurking right
outside Hagrid's listening to their non-time-traveling
selves coming and going.  The TT Harry and Hermione
should have been seen by Lupin on the map.  Lupin goes
out of his way to do quite a sales job on the map,
talking about how infallible it is, how it's not
fooled by invisibility cloaks or Animagi in their
animal form (and we find out in GoF, it's also not
fooled by Polyjuice Potion--Moody/Crouch).  Am I
crazy?  Shouldn't Lupin have seen an extra Harry and
an extra Hermione on the map because of their time
traveling?

3. Hermione's Narcolepsy

One of my favorite things that JKR emphatically got
RIGHT in PoA is her depiction of Hermione's
exponentially-mounting dementia because of her lack of
sleep.  We have a circadian rhythm that roughly
corresponds to the earth's rotation (it's actually
closer to 25 hours) and Hermione was trying to live
about 4 to 6 more hours each day!  I love it when she
loses it and hits Malfoy, misses a class because she
falls asleep and finally walks out on Divination, in
addition to other moments when she just seems crazed. 
JKR got the looniness of sleep-deprivation just right!

--Barb

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From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Mon May 21 18:38:45 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:38:45 -0000
Subject: Flitwick's broomsticks - "Flint"
In-Reply-To: <9ebdqb+jplc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebnbl+8c9f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19109

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
  
> But Quirrel doesn't see himself making gold or drinking Elixir of 
> Life - he sees himself finding the stone and presenting it to his 
> master.  So why didn't this work for him?
> 
> Catherine

This is something that really confuses me. Wouldn't Quirrel have to 
drink the Elixir so that V could return to life? Therefore how could 
he present the Elixir to V? Also, would V have to remain in Quirrel's 
body? I don't see how the Elixir of life could return him to strength 
in his original body.

Sarah, who is getting too confused thinking about this but is sure 
she is probably making this too complicated :)




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 19:20:27 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9ebirn+34ar@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521192027.1986.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19110

> I don't know about that!  Boy, I sure get tired of hearing how
> great James, Remus, and Sirius were/are.  Aaarrrggghhhh!  

I agree.  Lupin's alright and the jury's still out on James (respect
for the dead and all that) but even after reading GoF, I haven't
changed my opinion of Sirius Black.  He strikes me as one of those
charming guys that are great in their 20's but don't marry or mature
like their friends.  The kind of guy who'll still show up on his
motorbike in a black leather jacket (which is getting a tad snug
around the waist) and expect his married buds to join him at the pub
on the night that their kids are playing a semi-final soccer game.  

He doesn't seem too bright either.


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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon May 21 19:17:29 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:17:29 -0400
Subject: leaping to sirius's defense
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F9021@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19111


Magda wrote

> He strikes me as one of those
> charming guys that are great in their 20's but don't marry or mature
> like their friends.  The kind of guy who'll still show up on his
> motorbike in a black leather jacket (which is getting a tad snug
> around the waist) and expect his married buds to join him at the pub
> on the night that their kids are playing a semi-final soccer game.  
Yeah, probably


> He doesn't seem too bright either.
This is probably not the case. Professor McGonagall, in PoA, chapter 10 - in
describing Sirius and James, she says, "Both very bright, of course -
exceptionally bright, in fact..."
And it's obvious that her standards are pretty high, too. 



From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 19:33:25 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 895
In-Reply-To: <990465724.3006.63782.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521193325.5952.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19112


 Catherine wrote:

>BTW: it has been suggested that Neville has had a
memory charm 
>performed on him.  I had never really thought about
this before, but 
>it makes sense.  I am listening to the audio versions
a lot, and 
>whenever Neville is described, JKR always draws
attention to his bad 
>memory.  Perhaps Neville is only an ineffective
wizard because he has 
>this memory problem - and perhaps the hat can see the
potential in 
>him ie. see beyond the reality of Neville the
forgetful boy and see 
>what he was truly like.  


Also if you recall in GoF Moody tells Harry that
Neville's parents had a charm cast on them that
eventually drove them insane(Sorry just moved and
books packed so I don't remember the exact charm).  He
was just a small child.  It is possible that an
overzelous person cast a Memory Charm on him so that
he would no be tramatized by this and since the first
five years of life are the most important ones for
developing all of a child's capabilities this had the
negative effect of making him permanantly forgetful.

Danette

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From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 19:38:33 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 895
In-Reply-To: <990465724.3006.63782.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521193833.17127.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19113

Toby wrote:

>I was under the impression that the one that Ron gave
>Harry was more of 
>a 
>"toy" version of the real thing. Am I wrong? I don't
>remember what I 
>read 
>that makes me think this...I'll have to consult PoA
>again. 

Actually if I remember correctly what Ron tells Harry
is that his brother told him it was a "tourist
soveneir" as so was unrealiable since it had kept
going off at dinner.  We all know now that that was
becuase of "Scabbers" but Ron said he thought it was
because the twins had put something in Percy's soup.

Danette

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From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 19:43:58 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:43:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 895
In-Reply-To: <990465724.3006.63782.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521194358.13856.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19114

Jen wrote

>> Sirius comments at two different times about how
nosy Bertha was.  
>> Why should Sirius care that Bertha caught him
kissing Florence 
unless 
>> Florence was Snape's girl (or someone else's) and
he didn't want 
>> Snape to find out.  As you can tell, I am not a
Lily/Snape 
believer.  
>> Anyway, if Sirius kisses Snape's girl, I don't
imagine Snape would 
be 
>> very happy about that.  Also, after that kiss
Florence would 
realize 
>> that there could be no other for her except
Severus......the real 
man 
>> at Hogwarts! 
>>  
>
>
> I've had a very similar thought floating around my
head for ages. 
>There just seems to be more going on in the conflict
between Sirius 
>and Snape compared to the one between James and Snape
in my opinion. 
>And an argument over the mysterious Florence had
ocured to me too 
>(the Lily thing never happened). Finally someone has
the same 
>theories, possibly if I point it out to my friends
they'll stop 
>giving me funny looks. 

> Yay I'm not mad, or perhaps we're both insane.

Also Sirius was the one that set Snape up to get hurt
by Lupin.  That may be a factor as well in the
Snape-Sirius rivalry.

Danette

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From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Mon May 21 19:52:08 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:52:08 -0400
Subject: defense of Sirius and James
References: <20010521192027.1986.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007701c0e22f$85a383c0$914dd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19115


----- Original Message -----
From: "Magda Grantwich" <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>


> > I don't know about that!  Boy, I sure get tired of hearing how
> > great James, Remus, and Sirius were/are.  Aaarrrggghhhh!

It seems to me they were pretty great guys.  They (James and Sirius) went
through an awful lot for their friend (animagi transformation).  They went
out of their way and beyond their cultures inate prejudices against
werewolves to befriend Remus and make him feel comfortable each month during
his transformations.  They could have simply said..."well see you in a
couple of days" but no they actively endangered themselves in order to help
remus.

>
> I agree.  Lupin's alright and the jury's still out on James (respect
> for the dead and all that) but even after reading GoF, I haven't
> changed my opinion of Sirius Black.  He strikes me as one of those
> charming guys that are great in their 20's but don't marry or mature
> like their friends.  The kind of guy who'll still show up on his
> motorbike in a black leather jacket (which is getting a tad snug
> around the waist) and expect his married buds to join him at the pub
> on the night that their kids are playing a semi-final soccer game.

I'll agree that he was probably that type of guy (without the jacket getting
snug) before Azkaban.

However, if you read the scene where he talks to the trio in the cave in
Hogsmead (GoF, Padfoot Returns) he has a lot to say about what makes a good
father, a good father.  He points out that Crouch should have spent more
time at home rather than at the office.  This leads me to think he has a
clue about  family priorities in the post Azkaban era.  So no I don't agree
that he's be that kind of guy post-Azkaban.

>
> He doesn't seem too bright either.
>

Ditto what Heidi said.  Add to that that it was said that the animagi
transformation is a very difficult spell.  These guys accomplished it during
their 5th year, without any help from a more experienced wizard/witch.  That
indicates that they were not your run-of-the-mill wizards.

carole





From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 19:58:09 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:58:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 895
In-Reply-To: <990465724.3006.63782.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521195809.84234.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19116

Catherine wrote:

>The other thing that concerns me about this whole
episode is 
>Dumbledore's rationale behind getting the stone from
the mirror.  It 
>doesn't make sense.  He says to Harry, "You see, only
one who wanted 
>to find the stone - find it, but not use it - would
be able to get 
>it, otherwise they'd just see themselves making gold
or drinking 
>Elixir of Life."  
>But Quirrel doesn't see himself making gold or
drinking Elixir of 
>Life - he sees himself finding the stone and
presenting it to his 
>master.  So why didn't this work for him?

It's possible in this case that it didn't work because
Voldemort was a part of Quirrel at this point and
Voldemort DID want to use the stone therefore he was
not able to retrieve the stone from the mirror.

Danette



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From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 20:03:46 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:03:46 -0000
Subject: Trelawney and divination
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010521003713.008728cc@pop.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <9ebsb2+8slb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19117

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Samaporn Teeravechyan <teeravec at f...> wrote:
> >> TRELAWNEY'S PREDICTIONS
> >> This is a sub-group of divination credibility. But Trelawney's 
> >> Christmas Lunch prediction in PoA was that whoever rose from the 
> >> table first would be the first to die. Harry and Ron rose 
> >> simultaneously. Most of Trelawney's predictions are partially correct 
> >> (Parvati's "beware of a red-haired man", when Padma was Ron's date 
> >> for the Yule Ball). Is the Christmas Dinner prediction a red flag or 
> >> a red herring? Will Ron and Harry be the only survivors of those 
> >> seated at the table? Will Ron and Harry cause a death?
> >
> >I've been someone disappointed with JKR's use of divination in the books. I 
> >think she trivializes the importance it has in some religions and practices. 
> >Sure, there are kooks like Trelawney, but they are exceptions, not rules. I 
> >hope in future books, Harry finds someone who treats divination with some 
> >respect, and shows him the way it could be.
> 
> Perhaps JKR trivialises Trelawney more than divination itself. The fact
> that she has made predictions which can be argued to be true could mean
> that she does see the future ... but is just rather weak at interpreting
> what her 'inner eye' shows her. From the way Trelawney is characterised, I
> wouldn't be surprised if the quality of her mental filter is somewhat flimsy. 

I reckon Dumbledore and McGonagall don't believe she can do it,
and they should know wizards.  I think that Professor Trelawney
knows all _about_ Divination, so she's able to teach it, but
that's about all.  There must be some good in teaching it, though.

Look at Gilderoy Lockhart - Dumbledore had him as a teacher and
he was appalling.  However, Gorgeous Gilly does actually know
about DADA (or did ;-) - I'm sure Dumbledore knew all along that
he hadn't really done any, but he's dug up plenty of stories.
He puts them across in print quite well; his books sell.  But in
the classroom, he's useless.

Some magic and stage management could bring about some of the little
predictions she makes, such as Neville breaking a teacup - it could
have been enchanted to break on cue - but not that everyone gets
flu, I hope, although in the unhealthy atmosphere she likes, nothing
would surprise.

Dumbledore says her total of real predictions is two; maybe the
first was a really big one, and it used up most of her power.

> My guess is, in one way or another, her predictions will come true.
> Including, I might add, the ominous death prediction - with a twist, though.

CPR?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 20:13:45 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 894
In-Reply-To: <990423875.2508.99452.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521201345.82364.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19118

~Rosmerta wrote:

>But seriously.....I can only recall one instance of a
baby/child and 
>magic in the books: at the Triwizard Tournament
campground where the 
>trio glimpse a mother admonishing her child to put
down Daddy's wand. 
>Can anybody think of any other mentions? We hear
about Harry's 
>unplanned escapades but none of the other students
volunteer any 
>hilarious stories about their experimenting w/ magic
as children. It 
>must happen all the time, don't you think? 

>~Rosmerta

Also when Ron tells Harry about his fear of spiders he
says that one of the twins(books packed so I can't be
more specific) turned his teddy bear into a spider
because Ron broke the brother's toy broomstick.  All
Hermonie says about her childhood is that she never
knew all the strange things that happened where
magic(or something to that effect).

Danette 

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From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Mon May 21 20:19:49 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:19:49 -0000
Subject: Sabbats and character birthdays (was Re: Ron's Birthday)
In-Reply-To: <9eb9pc+6fuv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebt95+m0p1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19119

Catlady wrote:
I agree that Ron has a Taurus personality, but JKR said in a chat
that his birthday is in March. I think she said March First, which
is a Pisces, which he sure doesn't act like.

Craig wrote:
 
Is it possible that you are misremembering May 1st?


Me:

JKR did say March 1st in a chat just around the time that the Comic 
Relief books were released.  I'm not sure which one though.  

Trina 




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon May 21 20:27:30 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:27:30 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9ebfc8+blik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebtni+qk6p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19120

Hello Hello!

I was reading through what people have been saying about Viktor Krum 
and I wanted to add my two sickles' worth in.

I believe that Krum will most definitely be back, even if he is 
somehow just an introduction for us to the international wizarding 
world.  The World Cup in GoF was chock full of tidbits about wizards 
from other countries, and I'm sure we'll see them again.  Will Ron and  
Krum have a duel over Hermione?  Krum has the appearance of someone 
who isn't too nice, but he actually turned about to be a pretty nice 
guy (he certainly liked Hermione and we love anyone who would choose 
her, don't we?).  Will Krum and Harry have to work together on 
something that takes their Quidditch talents into account?  Will the 
troika have to travel to Durmstrang... which leads me to another red 
flag/red herring thing:

UNPLOTTABLE PLACES - Will Harry ever get lost trying to find somewhere 
he needs to go (or will he not be able to get back)?  Does that sound 
really stupid?  I don't know how else to word it.

I also believe Bill W will play a more important role because he will, 
IMO, date Fleur.  I really like the comment that someone made about 
Egypt, though (sorry, I forgot who said that).  I can see Harry having 
to somehow travel to another country, and Bill or Charlie will be the 
ones to show him around.  Like I said, all that talk about the 
international wizard community can't have been for nothing.

--jenny from ravenclaw, who just saw "Bridget Jones' Diary" and kept 
imagining Colin Firth saying "He's at Hogwarts..."****




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Mon May 21 20:29:38 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:29:38 -0000
Subject: Sneakoscope (was Red Herrings)
In-Reply-To: <9ebfc8+blik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebtri+24e3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19121

Milz wrote:
> 
> Sneakoscope: Harry's sneakoscope IS a toy. According to Ron, Bill 
said it was rubbish but it was squealing at the same time because 
Fred and George were playing a prank. It went off again when Ron was 
tying it to Errol's leg and Ron wasn't supposed to use Ron. The next 
time it went off was on the Hogwarts Express. For a toy, it seems 
pretty accurate, but Harry tucks it away in his trunk.

But the question you must consider is this:  Was Scabbers (aka 
Pettigrew) in Ron's pocket at these times?  During the trip to 
Hogwarts he was.  It squealed once more in the boys' dormitory at 
Christmas and Scabbers was there too.  Therefore, I, for one, *do 
not* believe it is a toy.  It actually works.

Trina





From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Mon May 21 20:31:10 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:31:10 -0400
Subject: MOVIE: (was red flags..etc)
References: <9ebtni+qk6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a301c0e234$f9da8b80$914dd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19122


----- Original Message -----
From: <meboriqua at aol.com>
>
> --jenny from ravenclaw, who just saw "Bridget Jones' Diary" and kept
> imagining Colin Firth saying "He's at Hogwarts..."****
>

Nah...but he'd sure make a great Lupin!

carole





From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Mon May 21 20:37:05 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:37:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 893
In-Reply-To: <990400767.1645.38539.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010521203705.60596.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19123


Hi Danette - 
IIRC, Harry was the one who drove off the Dementors
with his own 
Patronus (through the Time Turner) - remember how
Harry thought he saw 
his father but he was really seeing himself?  Snape
woke up after all 
of that and saw Harry and Hermione lying on the ground
and he helped 
them back to school.  I was under the impression that
he lied about 
driving off the Dementors in hopes of a little glory
for himself.

--jenny from
ravenclaw********************************************


You are right, that was my bad.

Danette

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 21:05:53 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:05:53 -0000
Subject: Mostly magical me ;-)
In-Reply-To: <9ebbc8+1hfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ebvvh+jlk9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19124

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Lupin doesn't think too clearly in the middle of a transformation.  

"It's unpleasantly like being drunk"? ;-)

Or being chewed.  Lupin says "It is very painful to turn into a
werewolf" - bones being bent and rearranged and so forth, perhaps -
maybe that's why they wake up mean.

Amy:
> Robert wrote:
> 
> >The electric broomstick, even the innovative design by that clever 
> > Mr. Dyson, seems to have missed the point...
> 
> Eh?  Explain?

http://www.dyson.com/ ;-)  A better joke than I thought, the latest
model looks like a Saturn 5 rocket, and it _still_ doesn't fly.
It probably needs to blow and not suck.  That's the DC07, apparently;
maybe they'll get off the ground with the DC10.

Let's see what they're selling when The Movie comes out.
Mom - get your kids to do the housework!

James Dyson's story is quite interesting, but trying to read that page
from his company's Web site gave my Opera web browser fits; YMMV.

Amy:
> Robert wrote:
> 
> >"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed
> >American office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com,
> >List of Stupid Things Overheard)
> 
> >- on reflection, one also wonders why she read them _all_, in that 
> >case
> 
> Not to mention that she must be about 11 years old.

'Zactly.  Perhaps she was thinking of Harry Palmer (the one in films). 
Odd reading for a seven year old...  All I "know" is what you see
here, and it may be an urban myth - if it's been told before about
other books (Wizard of Oz?), or an actress or politician (as I say,
the Dilbert version is supposed to be in an office), then I suppose
it is a myth.  Still, it's cute, isn't it?

Amy:
> Marianne wrote:
> 
> >And IIRC, there's never any mention of vegetables, other than 
> potatos.
> 
> Sprouts (bleah).  Somewhere in GF, when Hermione's stuffing herself 
> before running off to the library.

Comical Answer #1: Blimey, you're supposed to be quiet in there :-)

Comical Answer #2: _Professor_ Sprout to you and me :-)

Comical Answer #2a - Mandrakes?  Okay, perhaps not.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven" - oh, we already did that.





From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Mon May 21 21:02:53 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:02:53 -0500
Subject: Chapter 8 POA Summary
Message-ID: <20010521.160324.-761229.1.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19125

Chapter Eight - Flight of the Fat Lady
	Defense Against the Dark Arts has become the favorite class of the
majority of the Hogwarts students, bar Draco and his Slytherin friends.
But not all of Harry's classes are as exciting or interesting. Snape
continually berates the Gryffindors, especially Neville; Professor
Trelawney acts as though Harry is on his deathbed. Care of Magical
Creatures becomes intensly boring as the only animal Hagrid allows them
to look after are flobberworms, which do absolutely nothing.
	Harry's life perks up as Quidditch season begins and the Gryffindor team
starts training. Oliver Wood, the team captain, is desperate for them to
win the Quidditch Cup as this is his final year at Hogwarts. The team
trains with gusto, in all kinds of weather. Meanwhile, the first
Hogsmeade weekend is announced. Harry resolves to ask McGonagall about
being allowed to go; Crookshanks and Scabbers have a confrontation which
leads to a fight between Ron and Hermione.
	The next day, tensions are still running high between Ron and Hermione,
but their fight is ignored when Lavender Brown reveals that her pet
rabbit has died, thus fulfilling one of Trelawney's prophecies. Hermione
points out the logical fallacies in this assumption, leaving Lavender,
Parvati, and Ron upset: "She doesn't think other people's pets matter
very much." Harry asks McGonagall about Hogsmeade, but is told that no
form equals no visit. Everyone tries to console Harry, but all it does is
make him feel worse.
	Once everyone has gone to Hogsmeade, Harry wanders around, shunning
everybody. He sees Lupin and takes a peek at their new creature along
with a cup of tea. He asks Lupin why he was not allowed to fight the
boggart; Lupin reveals it was because he assumed it would take the shape
of Voldemort, which would cause a panic. Harry reveals that he is most
afraid of dementors, but is interrupted by Snape bearing a smoking
goblet. Lupin says it is to make him feel better, but Harry is suspicious
and tries to warn Lupin of Snape's aspirations to the position of DADA
teacher.
	Ron and Hermione return from Hogsmeade bearing candy. Harry talks about
his visit with Lupin and Snape's potion, but they have no time to discuss
it as it is time for the Halloween feast. The part is a success,
including formation gliding by the Hogwarts ghosts. But when they return
to the Gryffindor Common Room, there is a traffic jam outside the
portrait. Percy investigates the problem and calls for Dumbledore. When
he arrives, the trio sees what the problem is: the portrait of the Fat
Lady has been hacked to pieces. Peeves reveals that the Fat Lady is
hiding in one of the fourth floor portraits, but she told him who slashed
the painting: "Nasty temper he's got, that Sirius Black."

Discussion Questions:
1) Is Crookshanks chewing a dead spider in front of Ron a message telling
him he's on Ron's side?

2) Was Trelawney's prediction about Lavender's rabbit in any way
truthful, or was it all a big coincidence?

3) Lupin says the name Voldemort out loud. What does this say about him?

4) Was Harry foolish in telling Lupin about Snape?

5) (Silly Question) Do you think that there are ghost formation gliding
leagues? Olympics?

6) Why did Sirius slash the painting - didn't he know that would give him
away?
________________________________________________________________
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From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Mon May 21 21:03:24 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:03:24 -0500
Subject: Chapter 9 POA Summary
Message-ID: <20010521.160324.-761229.2.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19126

Chapter 9 - Grim Defeat
	All the Hogwarts students are sequestered in the Great Hall while the
teachers search the entire castle. Hermione notes that Black must have
lost track of the days - as a former Hogwarts student he would have known
they'd be at the feast. Other students come up with theories on how
Sirius entered the castle, including Apparition, broomsticks, and
disguises. Hermione immediately debunks these ideas based on intense
reading of "Hogwarts, A History." The trio then eavesdrop on a
conversation between Percy and Dumbledore: they haven't found a trace of
Black, but they have found a new guardian for the Gryffindor common room.
After this, Snape brings up a conversation he and Dumbledore had
previously about the possibility of someone "helping" Sirius enter
Hogwarts. Dumbledore rebukes him, and goes to tell the dementors that the
search is complete - there's no way he would let them enter the castle.
	The Fat Lady has been replaced by Sir Cadogan who comes up with complex
passwords, and keeps challenging people to duels. McGonagall summons
Harry to her office to tell him about Sirius Black, but Harry reveals
that he already knows. McGonagall tries to keep Harry from playing
Quidditch, but Harry protests and McGonagall admits she would like to see
the Gryffindors win the cup. At practice, the team learns they will now
be playing Hufflepuff as Flint, the Slytherin captain, says that Malfoy's
arm is not yet healed enough. The captain of the Hufflepuffs is Cedric
Diggory, which inspires giggles from the female members of the team. 
	As the day of the match approaches, the weather gets worse, while Draco
moans about his arm. At DADA, Lupin has been replaced by Snape for the
day, who promptly takes points off because of Harry's asking after Lupin.
Snape insults Lupin, but is rebuked by the entire class. He assigns them
an essay on werewolves despite their insistence on having not studied it
yet. Hermione, the only one who has read the chapter, is called an
"insufferable know-it-all" by Snape, causing the entire class to defend
her. Ron gets detention after his outburst, and wishes Black had finished
Snape off for them.
	On the morning of the game, the weather is getting even worse, but
Quidditch isn't called off even for thunderstorms. As the game begins,
Harry finds it almost impossible to see through the rain. The game
becomes almost a stand-off, with players running into each other because
of the rain. During a time-out, Hermione puts a spell on Harry's glasses,
making them repel water. Suddenly Harry sees a large black dog in the
bleachers and is almost distracted from catching the snitch. As he
reaches out to grab it, he hears people screaming in his head, and then
falls.
	Harry wakes up in the infirmary. The whole team is there, including Ron
and Hermione. The team tells him he fell off his broom and that they lost
the game. Cedric tried to call a rematch, but he won the game fair and
square. Fred and George try to reassure the shaken Harry that every
Seeker misses a Snitch once, and then proceed to explain how they can
still win the cup. Once Madam Pomfrey forces the team to leave, Harry
learns about the dementors coming onto the field and Dumbledore's anger
at their intrusion. Hermione notes that he used his wand to shoot silver
stuff at them that forced them to leave. Harry is distracted and asks
about his broomstick. Hermione is forced to tell him that once he fell
off it got blown towards the Whomping Willow. She then proceeds to pour
the pieces of the broom onto Harry's bed.

Discussion Questions:

1) (Silly Question) Is Hermione the only person to read "Hogwarts, A
History"?

2) Did Snape tell Dumbledore about Lupin because he holds a grudge
against the Mauraders, or because he wants the DADA job?

3) Is Malfoy's arm still injured?

4) Despite their constant teasing, does the Gryffindors' response to
Snape's insult prove they all really like Hermione?

5) Was Crookshanks outside the dormitory to protect Harry?

6) Why do the dementors come to the Quidditch game? Because of Sirius, or
because of Harry?

6a) Why do the dementors continually go after Harry? Will this be an
issue in one of the later books?

Sketch tomorrow, I promise!
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my **120%** Harry Potter Obsession Rating (Thank you,
fanfiction!)

________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 21:29:25 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:29:25 -0000
Subject: Mostly magical me ;-)
In-Reply-To: <9ebvvh+jlk9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ec1bm+llvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19127

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> Amy opined:
> > Robert cited in his signature:
> > >"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed
> > >American office worker on the Harry Potter books
> > >(www.dilbert.com, List of Stupid Things Overheard)
> > 
> > on reflection, one also wonders why she read them _all_, in
> > that case. Not to mention that she must be about 11 years old.
> 
> 'Zactly.  Perhaps she was thinking of Harry Palmer (the one in
> films).  Odd reading for a seven year old...  All I "know" is what
> you see here, and it may be an urban myth - if it's been told
> before about other books (Wizard of Oz?), or an actress or
> politician (as I say, the Dilbert version is supposed to be in an
> office), then I suppose it is a myth.  Still, it's cute, isn't it?

I'm not sure why it would even need to be a myth.  "List of Stupid
Things Overheard" seems like a pretty normal dilbert.com
list-of-the-day.  And the above citation is definitely a believable
stupid thing that one can imagine a daft co-worker saying.

Anyway, this is drifting OT, so I'll clamp it.

....Craig




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 21:33:17 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:33:17 -0000
Subject: Mostly magical me ;-)
In-Reply-To: <9ec1bm+llvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ec1it+deha@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19128

> I'm not sure why it would even need to be a myth.  "List of Stupid
> Things Overheard" seems like a pretty normal dilbert.com
> list-of-the-day.  And the above citation is definitely a believable
> stupid thing that one can imagine a daft co-worker saying.
> 
> Anyway, this is drifting OT, so I'll clamp it.

This is the dilbert citation:

"26 1316 Some Guy: Have you heard of those 'Harry Potter' books? Cow-
irker: Yeah, I read them all when I was seven and I hated them
-- Not the well-read book critic she claims to be "

http://umweb2.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/lotd/html/archive/2001-
05-18/lotd_2.html

(which will probably disappear within a week, so I'm noting it here)

....Craig




From astudill at uiuc.edu  Mon May 21 21:33:51 2001
From: astudill at uiuc.edu (Colonel Astudillo)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:33:51 -0000
Subject: Neville/Sorting Hat; Lupin's observations and Hermione's narcolepsy
In-Reply-To: <20010521182907.18856.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ec1jv+9gcb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19129

> 2. Lupin's Observations
> 
> The problem I'm having is that the
> time-traveling Harry and Hermione are lurking right
> outside Hagrid's listening to their non-time-traveling
> selves coming and going.  The TT Harry and Hermione
> should have been seen by Lupin on the map.  Lupin goes
> out of his way to do quite a sales job on the map,
> talking about how infallible it is, how it's not
> fooled by invisibility cloaks or Animagi in their
> animal form (and we find out in GoF, it's also not
> fooled by Polyjuice Potion--Moody/Crouch).  Am I
> crazy?  Shouldn't Lupin have seen an extra Harry and
> an extra Hermione on the map because of their time
> traveling?

I have never known any story to perfectly account for all aspects of 
time travel.  You gotta let a few things go :-)  this reminds me of a 
quote:  "Yes, in episode *** where Itchy plays the ribs of Scratchy 
like a xylaphone, he clearly plays the same rib twice in succession, 
each time creating a different pitch.  Are we to beleive that this is 
some sort of, *snicker*, magic xylaphone?"




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May 21 21:38:47 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:38:47 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: (was red flags..etc)
In-Reply-To: <00a301c0e234$f9da8b80$914dd63f@oemcomputer>
References: <9ebtni+qk6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010521142140.0304f5b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19130

At 04:31 PM 5/21/01 -0400, Carole Estes wrote:
> > --jenny from ravenclaw, who just saw "Bridget Jones' Diary" and kept
> > imagining Colin Firth saying "He's at Hogwarts..."****
> >
>
>Nah...but he'd sure make a great Lupin!

My personal choice for Sirius is Mark Strong, who played Mr. Knightley
in Kate Beckinsale's _Emma_.

Also I currently have the movie _Samantha_ on...  The rotten next door
neighbors could have been brilliant as the Dursleys (If only they had
English accents).   :)



                         -- Dave




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 21:41:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:41:02 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9ebdvb+og96@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ec21e+pcka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19131

Joywitch wrote:

>But have there been any red herrings so far, i.e. items mentioned 
briefly that 
>later turned out to be UNimportant?  I cant think of any.  Anybody 
>have any evidence one way or another (of course, it may be too early 
>in the series to tell.)

None of these is conclusively a red herring (rather than a red flag) 
because the series isn't done, and all are subjective of course, but 
here are a few things I thought along the way that turned out to be 
wrong (so far).  All arise from various clues which turn out to be red 
herrings:

-"Lupin is helping Sirius" (all that dropping stuff whenever his name 
comes up, plus RL's generally mysterious behavior)

-"Sirius is trying to kill Harry" 

-"Bagman put Harry's name in the Goblet" (just one of the many wrong 
theories I developed along the way)

-"Fred and George are scheming something that has to do with the 
Goblet/Tournament"

-"Snape is trying to kill Harry" in PS/SS

-"Percy is up to something suspicious" in CS (holed up in his room at 
the Burrow, e.g.)

more obviously:

-"Draco opened the Chamber of Secrets" (disproved early on, but still, 
it was a possibility)

ditto for 

-"Hagrid opened the Chamber of Secrets"

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "What is this thing?" said Moody, drawing the Marauder's Map out 
 of his pocket and unfolding it.
   "Map of Hogwarts," said Harry. . . .
   "Merlin's beard," Moody whispered, staring at the map, his magical 
 eye going haywire.  "This . . . this is some map, Potter!" 
   "Yeah, it's . . . quite useful," Harry said. 
                                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May 21 21:43:08 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:43:08 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Too many topics to list
In-Reply-To: <9ebbc8+1hfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010521144144.03075220@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19132

At 03:14 PM 5/21/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>But anyway, it might well have been in character for them to call
>themselves that (though I prefer to think otherwise), but it still
>isn't canon.

Couldn't we refer to them as "The Fab Four" or something?



                         -- Dave




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 21:46:56 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:46:56 -0000
Subject: Flitwick's broomsticks - "Flint"
In-Reply-To: <9ebdqb+jplc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ec2cg+78nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19133

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > > This is reminding me of my nomination for Silliest Plot Device:  
> > those 
> > > conveniently-placed broomsticks in the flying-keys chamber.  Does 
> > > anyone have an explanation for why they would be there?  Their 
> only 
> > > purpose seems to be to make it easier for someone to break in (or 
> > get 
> > > back out after having stolen the Stone).  I would love it if 
> > someone 
> > > could point out a good, non-plot-deviceish reason.
> >
> > It isn't just the broomsticks.  Snape could have just put in the 
> > flaming gates and not bothered with the puzzle and bottles; the 
> chess 
> > set could have been set at mate in one against visitors, etc.  
> > Presumably Dumbledore asked the professors to set their barriers so 
> > that it would be possible for the stone to be retrieved.  
> Dumbledore 
> > virtually admits as much in connection with the mirror.  The 
> > broomsticks are just the tools for that particular barrier.  The 
> > question is, was this just so as to get the stone back to the 
> Flamels 
> > after the danger was over (why not get the Flamels to agree to 
> > destroy it earlier?), or was it for Harry (and friends) to find 
> > because Dumbledore wants him to face Voldemort?  Was it a trap for 
> >V that failed because he evaporated back to Albania (or wherever)
> >when Quirrell died?
> 
> The other thing that concerns me about this whole episode is 
> Dumbledore's rationale behind getting the stone from the mirror.  It 
> doesn't make sense.  He says to Harry, "You see, only one who wanted 
> to find the stone - find it, but not use it - would be able to get 
> it, otherwise they'd just see themselves making gold or drinking 
> Elixir of Life."  
> But Quirrel doesn't see himself making gold or drinking Elixir of 
> Life - he sees himself finding the stone and presenting it to his 
> master.  So why didn't this work for him?
> 
> Catherine


It's a stretch for me too - although against Voldemort in particular,
being forced to play a series of silly games would _really_ tick him
off.  Perhaps put him off his chess game...Maybe he once did the same
to Dumbledore, in the bad times, and this is a revenge.  Maybe
Dumbledore likes all those other fantasy novels where this sort of
folderol takes place.

The broomsticks are convenient - but you also have to be a reasonably
good Seeker, with (apparently) allies, too - or perhaps just extremely
puissant in Dark Arts.

I rather think that getting past all of the safeguards is supposed
to be a team effort - except at the end - but that none of the
teachers is supposed to know in advance how to beat the others' traps,
except, perhaps, Dumbledore.  And yet the traps can all be got
through, with skill, intelligence - and time.  The great thing, I
imagine, is to delay Voldemort or any other thief while the castle's
defenders come to the rescue.  And, theoretically, no one of the
teachers can sneak in quickly by him or herself, tempted by the Stone. 
However, if one of the teachers is taken out of the game, the others
can still work out that part of the puzzle and get in, when they
need to.

I think Snape agrees to help Quirrell just to see what he'll do.

Btw, am I right in thinking that not enough information is given
for the reader to solve the potions puzzle?  (Or to play the chess
game, not that that matters.)

Did Quirrell have to play chess with Professor McGonagall and
find out the weaknesses of her game?

As for, for instance, simply hiding the Stone in a drawer and casting
a Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore as Secret-Keeper - Dumbledore isn't
invulnerable either, and maybe the Fidelius Charm doesn't work on
every secret - doesn't work, for instance, on a powerful Philosopher's
Stone.

As for not destroying the stone - we could say that this either
shouldn't or perhaps actually couldn't be done without Flamel's
consent.  But when Voldemort nearly got the stone, nearly killed
Harry, and had escaped to try again, Flamel agreed to let the stone
go.  Further, if Flamel has some particular power over the stone,
Voldemort, having got the stone, would probably kill him anyway.
If the stone existed, someone else - Peter Pettigrew, possibly -
would try, and possibly succeed, in getting it for Voldemort quite
soon.

It could also be that the stone is hard to destroy, like Tolkien's
Ruling Ring, and this couldn't be done safely while Voldemort
was actively pursuing it.

As for Quirrell, he  doesn't see himself finding the stone (stealing
it, actually), but giving it to Voldemort, using it to buy his
master's favour - using it.  He isn't allowed by V. to be
interested in possessing it himself without using it.  A robot or
a golem could be commanded to retrieve the stone without thinking
about what to do with it, but a robot or a golem wouldn't see
anything in the mirror at all - or, perhaps, only itself.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 21:51:49 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:51:49 -0000
Subject: Quirrell's motivation (was Flitwick's broomsticks)
In-Reply-To: <9ebdqb+jplc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ec2ll+7gah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19134

Catherine wrote:
 
> But Quirrel doesn't see himself making gold or drinking Elixir of 
> Life - he sees himself finding the stone and presenting it to his 
> master.  So why didn't this work for him?

Interesting point.  I think the plot holds, though.  Quirrell's aims 
are selfish, for one thing.  He surely expects some reward from his 
master; he isn't giving him the Stone for a birthday present.

For another, I would say that even though Dumbledore doesn't 
specifically say so, wanting the Stone for Voldemort is automatically 
wanting it for some kind of use.  Voldemort wants it in order to 
regain his strength, kill Muggles, rule the world, and whatever other 
nasty purposes he has in life.  So anyone who gives it to him is 
participating in a selfish motivation.

In contrast, someone who wanted it only to give it to Dumbledore would 
be able to find it, because Dumbledore himself would never use it.

This was written through a Benadryl haze--hope it makes sense,
Amy Z

--------------------------------------------
 "Winky is having trouble adjusting, Harry 
 Potter," squeaked Dobby confidentially.
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 21:55:22 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:55:22 -0000
Subject: Peter + Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <9ebkdb+gml3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ec2sa+nbtl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19135

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mags" <manchisco at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> > The hat does conduct a dialogue with
> > each student; it pointed out to Harry the advantages of Slytherin;
> > it took a long time over Neville - he was my other misplacement,
> > I'd have put him in Hufflepuff.
> 
> Why would you put Neville in Hufflepuff?

Apparently because I haven't read GOF yet...

> I thought Hufflepuff were supposed to be hard workers, and
> although he's certainly not lazy I wouldn't say we see him
> working incredibly hard.

Well, they'd jolly well make him work hard if he was in Hufflepuff.

If Hufflepuffs have to work harder, it's probably because they
don't have either the genius of Ravenclaw to keep them ahead,
or the courage and the mutual support network (chivalry, somewhat
stretched) of Gryffindor - and the Slytherins keep spoiling
their potions and copying their bookwork.

I'm probably exaggerating Gryffindor's special mutuality - the
Hufflepuffs do band together to protect Justin Finch-Fletchley when
they think Harry's the heir of Slytherin and out to get him.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon May 21 22:01:21 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:01:21 -0000
Subject: Chapter 9 POA Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010521.160324.-761229.2.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ec37h+k82c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19136

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sara Metz 
<hermionegranger.gryffindor at j...> wrote:
> Chapter 9 - Grim Defeat
> 	
> 
> 6) Why do the dementors come to the Quidditch game? Because of 
Sirius, or
> because of Harry?

Lupin explains in Chapter 10:

"Why did they have to come to the match?" said Harry bitterly.

"They're getting hungry," said Lupin coolly, shutting his briefcase 
with a snap. "Dumbledore won't let them into the school, so their 
supply of human prey has dried up.... I don't think they could resist 
the large crowd around the Quidditch field. All that excitement ... 
emotions running high... it was their idea of a feast."

 
> 6a) Why do the dementors continually go after Harry? Will this be an
> issue in one of the later books?


My guess is that Harry will become Hogwarts' #1 Pointman in battling 
dementors. In the third Triwizards task, he is easily able to 
dispatch a boggart posing as a dementor - I think this was intended 
to show that he has mastered the "Expecto Patronum" spell.  I've 
earlier speculated that at some point in the next three books, Harry 
will participate  - perhaps even lead - in a rescue mission to 
Azkaban to free good wizards held captive by Voldemort/


   - CMC




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 21 22:05:03 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:05:03 -0000
Subject: The real Sirius
In-Reply-To: <20010521192027.1986.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ec3ef+8p7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19137

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > I don't know about that!  Boy, I sure get tired of hearing how
> > great James, Remus, and Sirius were/are.  Aaarrrggghhhh!  
> 
> I agree.  Lupin's alright and the jury's still out on James (respect
> for the dead and all that) but even after reading GoF, I haven't
> changed my opinion of Sirius Black.  He strikes me as one of those
> charming guys that are great in their 20's but don't marry or mature
> like their friends.  The kind of guy who'll still show up on his
> motorbike in a black leather jacket (which is getting a tad snug
> around the waist) and expect his married buds to join him at the pub
> on the night that their kids are playing a semi-final soccer game.  
> 
> He doesn't seem too bright either.

Hoo boy.  I should get the heck out of the way before I get run over 
by a stampeding Carole, but I'm gonna get my 2 knuts in before I dive 
out of the crossfire, if I may mix a metaphor.

I was joking when I said he was the person kissing Florence.  I said 
it because in fanfic he has the "Hunk of Hogwarts" persona which, IMO, 
does not contradict canon but is in no way suggested by it.  

Magda's view seems to be a negative take on the same fanon Sirius.  I 
might share it if I accepted that Sirius was as much of a "god's gift 
to witches" as fanfic makes out, since, as I've said before when this 
topic came up, I don't have a high opinion of self-styled studs and I 
enjoy imagining them being washed-up immature jerks at 35.  But 
why do we think he was either the stud or the jerk?

Also, if canon does reveal that Sirius was something of a sex god in 
youth, it seems a bit stereotypical for JKR to then make him a 
washed-up immature jerk 15 years on.  It would also be a bit 
stereotypical for her to make him a 35-year-old sex god.  She seems to 
be doing neither:  her 35-y-o Sirius is mature, kind, patient (I just 
love it that when he urgently needs to warn Harry about Karkaroff and 
he might get burst-in-on by the hearth's owners at any moment, he sits 
there listening to Harry's troubles with his best friend), rising 
remarkably well to the job of godfather, and pretty emotionally 
together for someone who's just been through 12 years of torture.

Amy Z




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 21 22:06:37 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:06:37 -0000
Subject: Flitwick's broomsticks - "Flint"
In-Reply-To: <9ebnbl+8c9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ec3hd+d0p2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19138

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sarah Waggott" <s_waggott at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
>   
> > But Quirrel doesn't see himself making gold or drinking Elixir of 
> > Life - he sees himself finding the stone and presenting it to his 
> > master.  So why didn't this work for him?
> > 
> > Catherine
> 
> This is something that really confuses me. Wouldn't Quirrel have to 
> drink the Elixir so that V could return to life? Therefore how could 
> he present the Elixir to V? Also, would V have to remain in Quirrel's 
> body? I don't see how the Elixir of life could return him to strength 
> in his original body.

Well, Quirrell could have a sex change and do the
_Rosemary's Baby_ bit.

It's like the paradox where a Christian missionary is eaten by
cannibals (used to happen all the time), they digest his/her body
and it becomes part of theirs, then at the Second Coming how
does it happen that everyone gets resurrected and the missionary
gets his/her body back?

No flames, please, ritual cannibalism is an important Christian rite ;-)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon May 21 23:07:11 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:07:11 -0000
Subject: Chapter 8 POA Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010521.160324.-761229.1.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ec72v+htpt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19139

Nice summary!
> 
> Discussion Questions:
> 1) Is Crookshanks chewing a dead spider in front of Ron a message 
telling him he's on Ron's side?

You know, I never thought of that and that is an interesting angle to 
take on Crookshanks' behavior.  I suppose his Kneazle-like loyalty is 
more obvious to us now.  When I first read PoA, I simply thought 
Crookshanks was being a bit obnoxious, as if to say to Ron "I don't 
really care what you think of me."
> 
> 2) Was Trelawney's prediction about Lavender's rabbit in any way
> truthful, or was it all a big coincidence?

While I think Trelawney is a bit of a fraud and the kind of teacher 
we've all had at some point (the one we know isn't really a good 
teacher but we have to put up with her/him anyway), I think some of 
her predictions are probably right on.  This one was not one of them.  
I thought it was a coincidence, designed for students like Lavender 
and Pavarti to "fall" for Trelawney and adore her, because Trelawney 
clearly thrives on the adoration of her students.
> 
> 3) Lupin says the name Voldemort out loud. What does this say about 
him?

I just love Lupin!  He seems to be nearly fearless while being 
cautious at the same time.  He chooses his words very carefully, as 
well as who to say certain words to. As far as saying Voldie's name, 
hell, if I was a werewolf, what would I care about saying Voldie's 
name out loud?  I'll bet when he and James were friends they sat 
around saying "Voldemort" out loud all day long.  However, I don't 
think he'd say Voldemort to just anyone.
> 
> 4) Was Harry foolish in telling Lupin about Snape?

Not at all!  Harry is just dying to find an adult who he can trust.  
Lupin has clearly reached out to Harry, and Harry would hate to see 
Lupin be hurt or tricked by someone as nasty as Snape.  Harry is also 
observant enough to see that Snape isn't too crazy about Lupin.  What 
I'm not sure about is why Lupin has no reaction at all to Harry's 
comments.  I wish he had said something, even "Oh, really?".  Harry 
must have felt a bit stupid there.
> 
> 5) (Silly Question) Do you think that there are ghost formation 
gliding
> leagues? Olympics?
> 
> 6) Why did Sirius slash the painting - didn't he know that would 
give him away?

Sirius is a desperate man who has been living like an animal (no pun 
intended) for quite a while.  I can imagine, knowing what I know about 
him now, how frustrated he must have been when he got so close to 
catching the real culprit, only to be foiled again.

--jenny from ravenclaw*******************




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon May 21 23:19:14 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:19:14 -0000
Subject: Chapter 9 POA Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010521.160324.-761229.2.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ec7pi+r3bn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19140


> 
> Discussion Questions:
> 
> 1) (Silly Question) Is Hermione the only person to read "Hogwarts, A
> History"?

I bet Percy has also read it.
> 
> 2) Did Snape tell Dumbledore about Lupin because he holds a grudge
> against the Mauraders, or because he wants the DADA job?

I think Snape's grudge comes first, but I think there is more to this 
"grudge" than we know.  I also think Snape can be child-like by 
constantly running to Dumbledore shouting "He did it first!" and 
things like that.  Snape seems to always be trying to prove himself to 
Dumbledore.
> 
> 3) Is Malfoy's arm still injured?

Of course not!  Especially not after Madame Pomfrey's care.  She's the 
best nurse I've ever seen.
> 
> 4) Despite their constant teasing, does the Gryffindors' response to
> Snape's insult prove they all really like Hermione?

I think they are very protective of other Gryffindors in general, as 
well as ganging up on Snape.  It's hard not to get defensive when he's 
around.  It must also have been quite a disappointment for their 
favorite professor to be replaced with the professor they hated the 
most.  My students often act in a similar way when their classes are 
covered by teachers they don't like.
> 
> 5) Was Crookshanks outside the dormitory to protect Harry?

I think he was already trying to get Scabbers for Sirius and was 
probably around the boys' dormitory more times than we know.
> 
> 6) Why do the dementors come to the Quidditch game? Because of 
Sirius, or because of Harry?

I like the "emotions running high" explanation.  I'm not sure if 
there's more to their focus on Harry, though.  I imagine Dementors 
don't have the best self control.  Why should they?  I mean, when I'm 
hungry for ice cream I can't stop myself from running to the store to 
get some Ben and Jerry's.  Hey, we all need to eat.
 

--jenny from ravenclaw*******************************




From magistra at tampabay.rr.com  Mon May 21 23:42:55 2001
From: magistra at tampabay.rr.com (magistra at tampabay.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:42:55 -0000
Subject: Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9e9j30+ai59@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ec95v+53tg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19141

*waves at everyone*  Hi, I'm Darice, I'm new to this group...


"Claire Weale" <clairey at a...> wrote:
> little Alex...
>> I don't think of it as a club, more like, a secret
>>  society, a bit like... The Dead Poets Society.
>  
> Ok, I'm agreed w/the dead poets society. I just get a bit angry at 
> people when they talk about them as if they were a club (secret 
> handshakes!!!). But i do think they could have come up with a 
> better name if they were a "secret society". Then again, i dont 
> know much of the "histoy", maybe they did "maraud"...

I took the Hermione-pedantic approach and looked up the reference:

(p. 192, American)

    Messers. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs
     Purveyors of Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers
                 are proud to present
                  The Marauder's Map

Note the punctuation on Marauder's Map - it's not the plural 
(Marauders' Map) - it's singular, as in "a map for the use of 
marauding".

Note also that MWPP describe themselves as "Purveyors of Aids to 
Magical Mischief-Makers" - sounds a bit like Gred and Forge, eh?

- Darice




From magistra at tampabay.rr.com  Tue May 22 00:03:40 2001
From: magistra at tampabay.rr.com (magistra at tampabay.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:03:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter 8 POA Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010521.160324.-761229.1.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ecacs+rfpp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19142

> Discussion Questions:
> 1) Is Crookshanks chewing a dead spider in front of Ron a 
> message telling him he's on Ron's side?

I never considered that ... interesting read on it, given what we find 
out about Crookshanks later (and I'm *sure* that there's more to 
Crookshanks than being an unusually intelligent cat...)

> 2) Was Trelawney's prediction about Lavender's rabbit in any way
> truthful, or was it all a big coincidence?

I think that one was pure coincidence, and meant to give Hermione a 
way to demonstrate logic in the face of Divination - it sets the 
reader up to be a bit unsettled when some of Trelawney's prophecies do 
come true, and it also sets the stage for her real trance/prophecy 
about the rise of Voldemort.

> 3) Lupin says the name Voldemort out loud. What does this say 
> about him?

It's because he's soooo coooooool.  (But then again, Lupin is one of 
my favorite characters.)  I think that Lupin, like Harry and 
Dumbledore, believe in avoiding the "he-who-must-not-be-named" 
nonsense because it just adds to the fear and terror (as Dumbledore 
pointed out to Harry in Book 1).  Also, the only people who refer to 
Voldie as Voldemort seem to be those who have been directly and 
very actively opposed to him in the past - archenemies.  In the later 
chapters, Peter calls V "my master" or "HWMNBN" for example.  (Black 
calls Voldemort Voldemort, too.)

> 4) Was Harry foolish in telling Lupin about Snape?

I don't think so.  It was, I think, in large measure because he has 
found an adult he considers trustworthy - aside from Dumbledore - and 
also one he can confide in.  Their conversation shows Harry beginning 
to show trust to Lupin ... something that before he hasn't even 
granted to Dumbledore without a huge internal struggle.

> 5) (Silly Question) Do you think that there are ghost formation 
> gliding leagues? Olympics?

Are there Magical (or Ghostly) Olympics?  Strange concept...

> 6) Why did Sirius slash the painting - didn't he know that 
> would give him away?

Good question... I think he's got a LOT of pent-up anger that he's 
been just waiting to release, ever since he went to Azkaban.

- Darice




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Tue May 22 00:18:42 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:18:42 -0000
Subject: Chapter 9 POA Summary
In-Reply-To: <9ec7pi+r3bn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ecb92+8q4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19143

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > 
> > Discussion Questions:
> > 
> > 1) (Silly Question) Is Hermione the only person to read "Hogwarts, A
> > History"?
> 
> I bet Percy has also read it.

_Everyone_ read the chapter about the Chamber of Secrets, last year.

> > 2) Did Snape tell Dumbledore about Lupin because he holds a grudge
> > against the Mauraders, or because he wants the DADA job?
> 
> I think Snape's grudge comes first, but I think there is more to this 
> "grudge" than we know.  I also think Snape can be child-like by 
> constantly running to Dumbledore shouting "He did it first!" and 
> things like that.  Snape seems to always be trying to prove himself to 
> Dumbledore.

Dumbledore of course knows without Snape telling him that
(1) Lupin's a werewolf and (2) Lupin and Black were friends at school.
As to why Snape brings it up again - well, does he really want the
DADA job, or is it just a rumour?  He can be horrible to students
as much as he likes in Potions, and he's housemaster anyway.
But he's never liked Lupin - and maybe he has a special prejudice
against werewolves in general.

Being Slytherin, what he says and what he really feels are often
different things.

Actually, I think we should remember that the books are aimed at
children, so the clues to what's going on won't be excessively subtle.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Tue May 22 00:19:21 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:19:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The real Sirius
References: <9ec3ef+8p7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c0e254$dad200e0$fd74d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19144


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>


> Hoo boy.  I should get the heck out of the way before I get run over
> by a stampeding Carole, but I'm gonna get my 2 knuts in before I dive
> out of the crossfire, if I may mix a metaphor.

Hehehehehe....I already added my 2 knuts to magda's comments...so no ducking
necessary.

>
> Also, if canon does reveal that Sirius was something of a sex god in
> youth, it seems a bit stereotypical for JKR to then make him a
> washed-up immature jerk 15 years on.  It would also be a bit
> stereotypical for her to make him a 35-year-old sex god.  She seems to
> be doing neither:  her 35-y-o Sirius is mature, kind, patient (I just
> love it that when he urgently needs to warn Harry about Karkaroff and
> he might get burst-in-on by the hearth's owners at any moment, he sits
> there listening to Harry's troubles with his best friend), rising
> remarkably well to the job of godfather, and pretty emotionally
> together for someone who's just been through 12 years of torture.

Well, exactly and this is my impression of Sirius. My impression is that,
yes in his youth he was on the studly side and was a bit commitmentphobic
(sex-god and jerk)...Lord only knows where we get this idea...has something
to do with him being described as handsome and seeming the rogue due to the
mortorbike and all.  But it has always been my impression (even before
GoF...and you can ask Penny to confirm this) that Azkaban effected a large
change in his personality, and at 35 he is neither the sex-god nor the jerk
as seemed to play out in GoF.

Yes he may be still intrinsically attractive to the female population (and
the male population if you subscribe to the slashers view) but in my mind
his exploitation of that has been tempered by age and experience.  Where do
I get this....hmmm  wishful thinking...maybe, maybe I just overextrapolate
from the impression I get in his GoF scenes.  But he does seemed to have
settled down and have a good grasp on what it takes to be a good father (see
his comments in the cave about Crouch Sr.) and how to be a decent
friend/godfather/mentor to Harry.  So why shouldn't that maturity carry over
into his personal life once he is allowed a bit of personal life (i.e. when
he's not constantly looking over his shoulder)

I intensely dislike the fanon take on Sirius still being a violent git
womanizer at 35 as much as I dislike the fanon take on Sirius being
completely unaffected by his Azkaban experience.

We've been trying to avoid both pitfalls.  Heck in the fic I've been writing
with Penny he's 40 and until later chapters he had not had sex in 20
years...(12 years of Azkaban, 4 years in hiding and fighting VW2, and 4
years leading a inconspicuous existence...)  And refuses to have sex with
the woman to which he is attracted until she is comfortable with his past.
Like I said...wishful thinking....but that's my take on it.

carole





From tmayor at mediaone.net  Tue May 22 00:23:27 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:23:27 -0000
Subject: Lupin's silence (was re:Chapter 8 POA Summary)
In-Reply-To: <9ec72v+htpt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ecbhv+3603@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19145

Jenny from Ravenclaw answered the question "Was Harry foolish in 
telling Lupin about Snape?" by asking, <snip> > I'm not sure about is 
why Lupin has no reaction at all to Harry's 
> comments.  I wish he had said something, even "Oh, really?".  Harry 
> must have felt a bit stupid there.

First of all, *doesn't* Lupin say something netural like "oh really?" 
(sorry, don't have my book here). Either way, I think his non-
reaction is brought on by two desires, 

1) professionalism. much as he may like Harry, he is a teacher and 
dishing the dirt with a student on another teacher has got to be 
against the rules of professional conduct at Hogwarts as it is 
elsewhere. And Lupin's not exactly got a whole bunch of good will on 
the staff or longevity. He's not about to go stepping out of line 
this early on in the year. 

2) He seems intent in this scene and other one-on-one-with-Harry 
scenes to tell him as little as possible about his own life and his 
intimate involvement with Harry's father and friends and enemy (i.e., 
Snape). So his response would also be neutral to avoid having to 
indicate that he knows anything at all about Snape. But my question 
is: WHY isn't he more forthcoming with Harry? Plot, I think, has a 
lot to do with this.....we're meant to wonder about Lupin and 
possibly suspect his aiding and abetting Sirius; also, we can't find 
out the true nature of his relationship with James etc. until the big 
finale in the Shrieking Shack. But that leaves Lupin looking mighty 
uptight and emotionally closed off to Harry. 

~Rosmerta




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Tue May 22 00:25:27 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:25:27 -0000
Subject: Lupin's observations
In-Reply-To: <20010521182907.18856.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ecbln+a2t3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19146

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> 2. Lupin's Observations
> 
> A great deal is being made about Lupin noticing Peter
> Pettigrew on the Marauder's Map.  But I was just
> reading this section of PoA to my son last night, and
> I noticed a problem (I think).  Hermione wants to know
> how Lupin knew what he knew, and he tells them that he
> saw three of them (on the map) going to Hagrid's, but
> four coming back.  The problem I'm having is that the
> time-traveling Harry and Hermione are lurking right
> outside Hagrid's listening to their non-time-traveling
> selves coming and going.  The TT Harry and Hermione
> should have been seen by Lupin on the map.  Lupin goes
> out of his way to do quite a sales job on the map,
> talking about how infallible it is, how it's not
> fooled by invisibility cloaks or Animagi in their
> animal form (and we find out in GoF, it's also not
> fooled by Polyjuice Potion--Moody/Crouch).  Am I
> crazy?  Shouldn't Lupin have seen an extra Harry and
> an extra Hermione on the map because of their time
> traveling?

That's the problem - but I think the map was made by the students,
much more effort went into the very fancy presentation than into the
design, and I think its design doesn't allow for one person to be
shown in more than one place.  It's connected to everyone in the
school through a set of wizard photographs, or something.  But when
Harry and Hermione use the Time-Turner to double back, they don't
double up in their photographs as well.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 00:37:39 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OotP
In-Reply-To: <9ecb92+8q4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010522003739.21685.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19147


I've been musing again (I know, I shouldn't be doing that!).
Specifically, about the Order of the Phoenix, the rumored title of the
next book.

Somebody said (forgive me, I can't recall who) that it was only
speculation that the Order are special supporters of Dumbledore from
the 70's. I was just thinking, what if the vast majority of us had it
backwards? What if the Order are supporters of Voldemort? What made me
think of this was the line by Crouch:

"And both of us had the pleasure...the very great pleasure...of killing
our fathers to ensure the continued rise of the Dark Order!" (GOF, pg
678)

Gah, I know it's crazy and a very, very, VERY long stretch. I mean, the
Phoenix *is* a positive symbol. It would be only logical to conclude
that the Order of the Phoenix is a positive Order. I was just trying to
speculate on what the Order could possibly be besides supporters of
Dumbledore. Perhaps its a bunch of people who've received an award of
bravery that Harry might eventually get in book five? Or a separate
faction altogether that does not align itself with "good" or "evil"?

I guess I should stop guessing and just wait for book five to come out.
But...that's...not...for...another...year! ARGH! Anyone has any better
guesses than my feeble ones on other possibilities of the OotP?

~Amber


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the every approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Tue May 22 01:08:22 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:08:22 -0500
Subject: Silliest Plot Device (was Scabbers - Azkaban - PJP - wizard mortality -  broomsticks - "Flint" - RL on trai)
References: <9eb42d+88k5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B09BC06.9E669F9C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19148

Amy Z wrote:

> This is reminding me of my nomination for Silliest Plot Device:  those
> conveniently-placed broomsticks in the flying-keys chaber.  Does
> anyone have an explanation for why they would be there?  Their only
> purpose seems to be to make it easier for someone to break in (or get
> back out after having stolen the Stone).  I would love it if someone
> could point out a good, non-plot-deviceish reason.

This is why CoS is my least favorite. It seems contrived. But I had a
thought or two. Dumbledore not only wanted to protect the stone, he
wanted to flush out the person aiding Voldemort. The knowledge that it
was *possible* to get past the barriers could have been bait.

In addition, who knows what things might have happened to someone
grasping the wrong key?

--Amanda, unconvinced herself but trying


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue May 22 01:10:01 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:10:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flitwick's broomsticks - "Flint"
References: <9ebdqb+jplc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B09BC69.A0EE9A20@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19149

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> The other thing that concerns me about this whole episode is
> Dumbledore's rationale behind getting the stone from the mirror.  It
> doesn't make sense.  He says to Harry, "You see, only one who wanted
> to find the stone - find it, but not use it - would be able to get it,
> otherwise they'd just see themselves making gold or drinking Elixir of
> Life."
> But Quirrel doesn't see himself making gold or drinking Elixir of Life
> - he sees himself finding the stone and presenting it to his master.
> So why didn't this work for him?

Because he did ultimately want to use it, for Voldemort's benefit. He
wanted to find it because he wanted to make use of it. Harry didn't
remotely want to use in in any way, even as a paperweight--he just
wanted to keep it away from Quirrell.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue May 22 01:17:17 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:17:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flitwick's broomsticks - "Flint"
References: <9ec2cg+78nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B09BE1C.8072B96C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19150

rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:

> Maybe Dumbledore likes all those other fantasy novels where this sort
> of folderol takes place.

Maybe Dumbledore was making use of his own reputation, figuring that
this trap to flush out Voldemort's ally would be interpreted by said
ally as an oddity of Dumbledore's rather than any danger to himself.

> I think Snape agrees to help Quirrell just to see what he'll do.

Where did you get the idea that Snape is helping Quirrell? What with?
Snape is trying to stop Quirrell, at every turn.

> Btw, am I right in thinking that not enough information is given for
> the reader to solve the potions puzzle?

You are correct. Another complaint my husband made, that without a
visual, the best a reader can do is narrow it to (I believe) three
choices. Me, I'm lousy at that sort of puzzle, I just read it and took
Hermione's word.

>  As for, for instance, simply hiding the Stone in a drawer and casting
> a Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore as Secret-Keeper - Dumbledore isn't
> invulnerable either, and maybe the Fidelius Charm doesn't work on
> every secret - doesn't work, for instance, on a powerful Philosopher's
>
> Stone.

For no reason I can think of, I thought the Fidelius Charm was a charm
for hiding *people*. Dumbledore could have hidden Flamel, but not an
object. Is this right? Where did I get this impression? Same place as
Snape/Lily?

> As for not destroying the stone - we could say that this either
> shouldn't or perhaps actually couldn't be done without Flamel's
> consent.  But when Voldemort nearly got the stone, nearly killed
> Harry, and had escaped to try again, Flamel agreed to let the stone
> go.

The production of the Elixir of Life is probably not the only benefit
the Stone can produce. They're probably letting a bunch of other stuff
go with it as well, which had caused them to hesitate before. In
addition, what seeker after pure knowledge and good could help but
hesitate to destroy the Stone, sought by thousands over hundreds of
years, emblem of the completed quest for self-discovery and
improvement--the only one ever achieved? Small wonder they waited until
little other choice was left.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue May 22 01:29:46 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:29:46 -0000
Subject: Lupin's silence (was re:Chapter 8 POA Summary)
In-Reply-To: <9ecbhv+3603@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ecfea+eiap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19151

Rosmerta wrote: 
> 
> 2) He seems intent in this scene and other one-on-one-with-Harry 
> scenes to tell him as little as possible about his own life and his 
> intimate involvement with Harry's father and friends and enemy 
(i.e., 
> Snape). So his response would also be neutral to avoid having to 
> indicate that he knows anything at all about Snape. But my question 
> is: WHY isn't he more forthcoming with Harry? Plot, I think, has a 
> lot to do with this.....we're meant to wonder about Lupin and 
> possibly suspect his aiding and abetting Sirius; also, we can't find 
> out the true nature of his relationship with James etc. until the 
big 
> finale in the Shrieking Shack. But that leaves Lupin looking mighty 
> uptight and emotionally closed off to Harry. 
> 

Thank you!  You said it much better than I could.  I, too, was 
wondering why he wasn't more forthcoming with Harry.  I suppose that, 
by the time Lupin reached adulthood, he was not too trusting of too 
many people, and even though Harry is the son of one of Lupin's best 
friends, Lupin still does not know Harry too well.  That's what I 
meant earlier when I said Lupin was cautious - I'd be, too, if people 
screamed "Werewolf!" at me.  I just felt a bit sorry for Harry when he 
tried to tell Lupin about Snape, because it wasn't easy for Harry to 
venture such comments either.  He is, in some ways, as closed as 
Lupin, and my heart always goes out to him.

--jenny from ravenclaw*************************************




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 01:49:11 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:49:11 -0000
Subject: Digest  895/Sirius/Snape
In-Reply-To: <20010521194358.13856.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ecgin+mmaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19152

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Danette Schardt-Cordova > Also Sirius was 
the one that set Snape up to get hurt
> by Lupin.  That may be a factor as well in the
> Snape-Sirius rivalry.
> 


It's just my thought that Sirius set up Snape because of the *trio 
love factor*.  Could also be why Snape wanted to get rid of Sirius.  
One must get rid of the competition.  Just a thought (sort of weak, I 
know).

Koinonia




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 02:04:18 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:04:18 -0000
Subject: The real Sirius
In-Reply-To: <9ec3ef+8p7m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9echf2+305b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19153

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

Koinonia wrote (I must admit it was "I"):
> > > I don't know about that!  Boy, I sure get tired of hearing how
> > > great James, Remus, and Sirius were/are.  Aaarrrggghhhh!  
> >

Magda Grantwich wrote (which had me laughing!)
 
> > I agree.  Lupin's alright and the jury's still out on James 
(respect
> > for the dead and all that)

I have a lot of respect for the dead also and I agree with Magda on 
James.  I'm sure he was a great guy but surely not without fault.

Magda Grantwich wrote
 but even after reading GoF, I haven't
> > changed my opinion of Sirius Black.  He strikes me as one of those
> > charming guys that are great in their 20's but don't marry or 
mature
> > like their friends.  The kind of guy who'll still show up on his
> > motorbike in a black leather jacket (which is getting a tad snug
> > around the waist) and expect his married buds to join him at the 
pub
> > on the night that their kids are playing a semi-final soccer 
game.  
> > 
> > He doesn't seem too bright either.

I truly thought that was funny.  Just me, I guess :-)

> 
> Hoo boy.  I should get the heck out of the way before I get run 
over 
> by a stampeding Carole, but I'm gonna get my 2 knuts in before I 
dive 
> out of the crossfire, if I may mix a metaphor.

I have noticed there are times when one must get out of the way.  
It's really kind of funny how we all take up for our man!  

> 
> I was joking when I said he was the person kissing Florence.

But I'm not joking.  I think he could be the one kissing her.

  I said 
> it because in fanfic he has the "Hunk of Hogwarts" persona which, 
IMO, 
> does not contradict canon but is in no way suggested by it.


I don't do fanfic.  Maybe I better get out of the way of stampeding 
fanfic lovers!

  
> 
> Magda's view seems to be a negative take 


Yes, it was.  I personally like Sirius quite a bit and also Lupin.  I 
just love Snape much, much more. I am personally tired of hearing 
about the great trio and James and Lily.....blah!  I love them all 
but enough is enough  ^_~  

Koinonia  




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 02:10:29 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:10:29 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings
In-Reply-To: <9ec21e+pcka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9echql+ij6m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19154

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Joywitch wrote:
> 
> >But have there been any red herrings so far, i.e. items mentioned 
> briefly that 
> >later turned out to be UNimportant?  I cant think of any.  Anybody 
> >have any evidence one way or another (of course, it may be too 
early 
> >in the series to tell.)
> 
> None of these is conclusively a red herring (rather than a red flag) 
> because the series isn't done, and all are subjective of course, but 
> here are a few things I thought along the way that turned out to be 
> wrong (so far).  All arise from various clues which turn out to be 
red 
> herrings:
> 
> -"Lupin is helping Sirius" (all that dropping stuff whenever his 
name 
> comes up, plus RL's generally mysterious behavior)
> 
> -"Sirius is trying to kill Harry" 
> 
> -"Bagman put Harry's name in the Goblet" (just one of the many wrong 
> theories I developed along the way)
> 
> -"Fred and George are scheming something that has to do with the 
> Goblet/Tournament"
> 
> -"Snape is trying to kill Harry" in PS/SS
> 
> -"Percy is up to something suspicious" in CS (holed up in his room 
at 
> the Burrow, e.g.)
> 
> more obviously:
> 
> -"Draco opened the Chamber of Secrets" (disproved early on, but 
still, 
> it was a possibility)
> 
> ditto for 
> 
> -"Hagrid opened the Chamber of Secrets"
> 
> Amy Z
> 
I think that all of the so-called red herrings lasted only within 
the story of each book.  All were resolved in the same story.  There 
are no proven red herrings that have lasted beyond the volume in which 
they were introduced, even those cited for PS/SS, the first book.  I 
will take the great leap of deduction to say that those NOT so 
disproved are red flags, and point to something to be seen in future 
books.

Haggridd




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 02:15:32 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:15:32 -0000
Subject: Chapter 9 POA Summary
In-Reply-To: <9ec7pi+r3bn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eci44+77nh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19155

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > 2) Did Snape tell Dumbledore about Lupin because he holds a grudge
> > against the Mauraders, or because he wants the DADA job?
> 
> I think Snape's grudge comes first, but I think there is more to 
this 
> "grudge" than we know.  I also think Snape can be child-like by 
> constantly running to Dumbledore shouting "He did it first!" and 
> things like that.  Snape seems to always be trying to prove himself 
to 
> Dumbledore.

I have heard others talk about how Snape is constantly running to 
Dumbledore.  Where does he do that?  Snape does speak his mind to 
Dumbledore whenever he feels he must. That is one thing I like about 
him.  He stands up for what he believes to be true.  When you look at 
PoA from Snape's point of view, he was right to have doubts about 
Lupin.  Of course, he also hates Remus and didn't want him there 
under any circumstance! Snape did manage to get rid of Lupin by the 
end of the book.  I also don't know if Snape is always trying to 
prove himself to Dumbledore.  I just think there are times when he is 
trying to get Dumbledore to see things from his point of view.

Koinonia    





From buster at dnahelix.com  Tue May 22 02:22:54 2001
From: buster at dnahelix.com (buster at dnahelix.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:22:54 -0000
Subject: Questions...Head of Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <c6.14ffaa50.281fea7d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ecihu+h1ud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19156

Hello.

I just joined this group and thought I might lend further support to 
the answer for question about the head of Ravenclaw.

As some have mentioned (and according to the Lexicon) the head of 
Ravenclaw is, in fact, Professor Flitwick.

Although I can't recall it being mentioned in any of the books 
either, I do have the url of Rowling's responses from a recient 
interview where that question was raised (along with questions about 
the new book due out sometime next year).

This could be where the Lexicon got their info from:

http://www.geocities.com/harrypotterextrvgnza/literaturerumours.html

I hope this helps.  If I run across anything else regarding your 
other questions, I'll be sure to let you know.




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Tue May 22 02:38:21 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:38:21 -0400
Subject: trio/james/lily/snape
References: <9echf2+305b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c0e268$44dd3dc0$fd74d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19157


----- Original Message -----
From: <koinonia02 at yahoo.com>

>
> Yes, it was.  I personally like Sirius quite a bit and also Lupin.  I
> just love Snape much, much more. I am personally tired of hearing
> about the great trio and James and Lily.....blah!  I love them all
> but enough is enough  ^_~
>
> Koinonia

Oh...come on! You must be relatively new to this list.  There has got to
have been at least 10 threads concerning Snape to every one thread
concerning James, Sirius, and Lupin.  They really are not talked about all
that much, particularly when compared to Snape... How come a couple of posts
about Sirius are too much but when it comes to Snape...jeez bring it on.

sorry....but come on....

carole







From devika261 at aol.com  Tue May 22 02:47:32 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:47:32 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The real Sirius
Message-ID: <10c.34d8dc.283b2d44@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19158

In a message dated 5/21/01 10:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
lrcjestes at earthlink.net writes:


> My impression is that,
> yes in his youth he was on the studly side and was a bit commitmentphobic
> (sex-god and jerk)...Lord only knows where we get this idea...has something
> to do with him being described as handsome and seeming the rogue due to the
> mortorbike and all.  But it has always been my impression (even before
> GoF...and you can ask Penny to confirm this) that Azkaban effected a large
> change in his personality, and at 35 he is neither the sex-god nor the jerk
> as seemed to play out in GoF.
> 

I agree with you that now Sirius is the mature, kind man we all love, and I'm 
sure that 12 years in Azkaban has made a change in his personality and his 
outlook on life.  But I think it's possible that he was not a 
"commitmentphobic jerk" before he was arrested.  I think that his best 
friend's marriage must have had some effect on him, as well as the fact that 
he was Harry's godfather.  According to Hagrid in PoA, Sirius wanted to take 
care of Harry after James and Lily were killed, and he argued against sending 
Harry to the Dursleys.  As far as Sirius knew, the Dursleys were perfectly 
decent people who would take good care of their nephew, but he was still 
quite adamant about taking Harry.  I think the fact that he was willing to 
take care of his young godson even though Harry had other family shows that 
he was rather mature at that time.  Loyal, too.
>From the books, it seems like James was just as much a troublemaker as Sirius 
was, and yet he had a wife and son.  Hmmm...maybe it's the motorcycle.  But 
does being very attractive and owning a motorcycle necessarily make a man 
afraid of commitment?  Is this all just wishful thinking on my part?  I don't 
know.  But I still love Sirius (and Lupin...and Snape, for that matter--is 
that wrong?)
Devika :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue May 22 02:56:15 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:56:15 -0000
Subject: why not just get a guardian that DOESN'T fall asleep?
In-Reply-To: <3B09BC06.9E669F9C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9eckgf+gugn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19159

So each defense of the stone is non-lethal, each one can be defeated 
by the right combination of brains and brawn and skills. These traps 
were all placed by the good guys, right? Okay, here's my shot at a 
reason. 

If you create lethal traps, that puts you in the category of Dark 
Wizards. If you just put fire there when you know it's going to kill 
whomever tries to get through, your intention is to kill that person. 
Intention is key to all the magic in the books, so if the intention 
you put into your spell/trap/puzzle is absolutely lethal, you are 
using Dark Magic. Now I'm sure that someone like Snape wouldn't have 
a lot of qualms about using Dark Magic for a good cause, but I'll bet 
Dumbledore wouldn't hear of it. So they had to create traps which 
weren't intended to kill, oh no, they're intended to "thwart 
progress." That's a very different thing, without any hint of Dark 
intent. 

Flitwick gets right into the spirit of the thing and creates 
something bright and colorful and at the same time damn near 
impossible to figure out, so upon reflection he includes the brooms, 
since then the intention not to harm is clear, even though he can be 
pretty sure no one will actually be able to catch the correct key. As 
for Devils Snare, Fluffy, and the Troll, well they're not evil, 
they're simply animals who attack, which isnt' the same thing. And 
none of them, I would argue, are technically Dark Creatures, so 
they're the perfect choice: nasty but not Dark. So far we're doing 
just fine within Dumbledore's Round Table-ish code of honor.

Well, then it's Snape's turn. He also follows the rules and makes the 
riddle breakable, but just barely, and he includes a few nasty 
poisons in the mix just because he just wants to so badly. Dumbledore 
shakes his head and suggests that a little butterbeer would be a bit 
less Dark, but Snape insists. 

So there you have it. No one should be able to get past these traps, 
but then several people do, including a gang of kids, and when Flamel 
hears about this, knowing these traps were about as good as any could 
be and not be Dark, he finaly agrees to give up the stone and have it 
detroyed.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue May 22 03:01:22 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 03:01:22 -0000
Subject: Questions...Head of Ravenclaw
In-Reply-To: <9ecihu+h1ud@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eckq2+stc5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19160

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., buster at d... wrote:

> 
> As some have mentioned (and according to the Lexicon) the head of 
> Ravenclaw is, in fact, Professor Flitwick.
> 

> This could be where the Lexicon got their info from:
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/harrypotterextrvgnza/literaturerumours.html
> 


This is where the Lexicon got the information:

faheem90: Who is the head of Ravenclaw? Professor Sinistra perhaps? 
JR: No, the head of Ravenclaw is good old Professor Flitwick! 

from the Barnes and Noble chat of October 2000, found at:

http://www.hpnetwork.f2s.com/jkrowling/jkrbnchat.html

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 22 03:11:45 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 03:11:45 -0000
Subject: OotP
In-Reply-To: <20010522003739.21685.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ecldh+10q87@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19161

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:

I was just trying to
> speculate on what the Order could possibly be besides supporters of
> Dumbledore. 

Or a separate
> faction altogether that does not align itself with "good" or "evil"?
> 

I think the Dementors have a monopoly on that particular position. 
Sort of like the lines from Tom Lehrer's song about Werner Von Braun

Don't say that he's hypocritical
Say rather that he's apolitical
"Wunz ze rockets are up, who cares vere ze come down?
Zat's not my department!" says Werner Von Braun.

Fawkes has hitherto been identified with beauty and glory at its 
purest level.  Fawkes is truly as innocent as a dove and as wise as a 
serpent.   How could he associate with a faction neither good or 
evil? Such moral relativism receives no hearing in JKR's narrative. 
My own particular theory is that Fawkes is going to cement 
the "stealth" Christian iconography of the HP series, as the Holy 
Spirit symbol allied with the Father and Son (i.e, Dumbledore and 
Harry).

   - CMC





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue May 22 03:14:05 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 03:14:05 -0000
Subject: why not just get a guardian that DOESN'T fall asleep?
In-Reply-To: <9eckgf+gugn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eclht+gnki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19162

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
An excellent exposition. 
	There's also the fact that brute force to protect the Stone had 
already been tried, at Gringott's, and found wanting.  Dumbledore sets 
a series of challenges,  and Voldemort, as we have learned and Dumble 
surely knows, cannot resist. I have stated in earlier posts my theory 
that the Mirror is itself a trap. If Voldemort had dared to look in it 
himself, would he not have seen himself achieving immortality, and so 
been trapped in front of it forever?

Pippin





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 22 03:58:44 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 03:58:44 -0000
Subject: Hitch and his McGuffins (was: Red Flags, Red Herrings)
In-Reply-To: <9echql+ij6m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eco5k+3p2e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19163

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Joywitch wrote:
> > 
> > >But have there been any red herrings so far, i.e. items 
mentioned 
> > briefly that 
> > >later turned out to be UNimportant?  

There is a very interesting reference in Chapter One of PS/SS

"And finally, bird-watchers everywhere have reported that the 
nation's owls have been behaving very unusually today. Although owls 
normally hunt at night and are hardly ever seen in daylight, there 
have been hundreds of sightings of these birds flying in every 
direction since sunrise. Experts are unable to explain why the owls 
have suddenly changed their sleeping pattern." The newscaster allowed 
himself a grin. "Most mysterious. And now, over to Jim McGuffin with 
the weather. Going to be any more showers of owls tonight, Jim?"

Jim "McGuffin?" Hmmm.

Anyone Hitchcock fans out there? Titles like "Strangers on a Train,"
"Spellbound," "The Birds," "The Trouble With Harry," "The Wrong Man," 
(i.e., Sirius), "Rich and Strange," (i.e., Draco), "I Confess,"(i.e., 
Wormtail, certainly resonate with Potter-esque overtones. "MacGuffin" 
was a term that Hitch used for what he intended as his red herrings 
(e.g., the stolen money in Psycho, Laurence Olivier's supposed 
attachment to his late wife in Rebecca) that were intended to draw 
attention away from what the story was really about.  And the above 
paragraph certainly suggests Hitchcock's legendary 1962 esaay of 
avian terror.

See this link for more info on Hitch's MacGuffin:

http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~muffin/


   - CMC (if only Hitch were still around to direct HP!) 










From joym999 at aol.com  Tue May 22 04:18:23 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 04:18:23 -0000
Subject: Make Your Own Spell!  (Contest #3)
Message-ID: <9ecpaf+qfki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19164

Hmmm....what is up with you muggles?

Are your lives just so terrific that you do not need any magic?

If so, why do you spend so many hours a day at your COMPUTER?

Well, yes, as you guessed traffic has been very slow here at HP4GU 
Contest Headquarters.  For some reason, very few people have sent me 
spells that they would like to have in their own lives.  Dont miss 
the opportunity to tell the world about the imaginative spells you 
have fantasized about.  (I can post them anonymously, if you prefer, 
if its THAT kind of spell.)

So send those spells to HP4GUCon at aol.com.  Soon.  Today.  Please.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue May 22 04:27:13 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 04:27:13 -0000
Subject: Hitch and his McGuffins (was: Red Flags, Red Herrings)
In-Reply-To: <9eco5k+3p2e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ecpr1+as71@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19165

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > > Joywitch wrote:
> > > 
> > > >But have there been any red herrings so far, i.e. items 
> mentioned 
> > > briefly that 
> > > >later turned out to be UNimportant?  
> 
> There is a very interesting reference in Chapter One of PS/SS
> 
> "And finally, bird-watchers everywhere have reported that the 
> nation's owls have been behaving very unusually today. Although 
owls 
> normally hunt at night and are hardly ever seen in daylight, there 
> have been hundreds of sightings of these birds flying in every 
> direction since sunrise. Experts are unable to explain why the owls 
> have suddenly changed their sleeping pattern." The newscaster 
allowed 
> himself a grin. "Most mysterious. And now, over to Jim McGuffin 
with 
> the weather. Going to be any more showers of owls tonight, Jim?"
> 
> Jim "McGuffin?" Hmmm.
> 
> Anyone Hitchcock fans out there? Titles like "Strangers on a Train,"
> "Spellbound," "The Birds," "The Trouble With Harry," "The Wrong 
Man," 
> (i.e., Sirius), "Rich and Strange," (i.e., Draco), "I 
Confess,"(i.e., 
> Wormtail, certainly resonate with Potter-esque overtones. 
"MacGuffin" 
> was a term that Hitch used for what he intended as his red herrings 
> (e.g., the stolen money in Psycho, Laurence Olivier's supposed 
> attachment to his late wife in Rebecca) that were intended to draw 
> attention away from what the story was really about.  And the above 
> paragraph certainly suggests Hitchcock's legendary 1962 esaay of 
> avian terror.

Wow. Brilliant catch, CMC.  Somehow I can believe that JKR is a big 
Hitchcock fan.  It fits with my idea of her personality, but dont ask 
me why.  But did Hitchcock really mean the term MacGuffin to mean red 
herring?  I thought his MacGuffins were more of a plot device -- the 
thing that everyone is looking for, which in and of itself is 
unimportant but is meaningful to the characters.  A red herring is 
more of a false clue.

Amys list of red herrings was pretty good -- like the false clue that 
Fred and George were up to no good in GoF, same with Percy in CoS, 
etc.  I guess JKR does sprinkle the text with red herrings and I was 
too dumb to notice.

But JKR does have her MacGuffins, too.  The Philosophers Stone itself 
is a kind of a MacGuffin -- we never really see it, we dont really 
know what it is (historically its not a stone at all), the stone 
itself is unimportant except that EVERYBODY wants it.

--Joywitch




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 04:44:51 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 04:44:51 -0000
Subject: trio/james/lily/snape/jeez
In-Reply-To: <001a01c0e268$44dd3dc0$fd74d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9ecqs3+9rq6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19166

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> Oh...come on! You must be relatively new to this list. 

I mostly lurk but do put my 2 cents in every now and then.  I did do 
my homework and tried to read a great majority of the threads. 

 There has got to
> have been at least 10 threads concerning Snape to every one thread
> concerning James, Sirius, and Lupin.  They really are not talked 
about all
> that much, particularly when compared to Snape... How come a couple 
of posts
> about Sirius are too much but when it comes to Snape...jeez bring 
it on.
> 
> sorry....but come on....

Oh.....but come on......I am not even talking about the number of 
Snape threads compared to Sirius, James, Lupin, or anyone else. I was 
referring to how the characters are portrayed in the books.  I know 
there are others out there who feel as I do.  As much as I love the 
trio and Lily, I do get tired of hearing about how perfect they are, 
that's all.  We all have our favorite characters.  If someone doesn't 
like Snape that is fine with me.  If I find Sirius boring (I don't) 
then shouldn't I have a right to feel that way?  Jeez....aren't we 
allowed to have our own opinions about the characters?  Sure seems 
like there are many different opinions on this board and others!

Koinonia  





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Tue May 22 06:07:59 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (monika at darwin.inka.de)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:07:59 -0000
Subject: In defense of Sirius
Message-ID: <9ecvnv+97rk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19167

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> I agree.  Lupin's alright and the jury's still out on James (respect
> for the dead and all that) but even after reading GoF, I haven't
> changed my opinion of Sirius Black.  He strikes me as one of those
> charming guys that are great in their 20's but don't marry or mature
> like their friends.  The kind of guy who'll still show up on his
> motorbike in a black leather jacket (which is getting a tad snug
> around the waist) and expect his married buds to join him at the pub
> on the night that their kids are playing a semi-final soccer game. 

What a nice birthday present to find this in my mailbox after waking 
up this morning. Sorry, just kidding. ;-) I have seen that most of 
the points have already been made, but I just have to add my two 
knuts, sorry again. Hm, your perception of Sirius might have been 
true hadn't he been sent to Azkaban. We don't know it. But his life 
has taken a different course, and there is no way IMO that this 
experience hasn't profoundly changed him. If what you said about his 
youth is true, it will sure have changed him for the better. Living 
through 12 years of torture will affect anyone and make him see life 
in a different light, whoever he might have
been before.

> He doesn't seem too bright either.

Well, now I am completely puzzled. Like Carole has already pointed 
out, he has some pretty healthy opinions about parenting and 
politics, and besides that we are told in PoA that he was an 
exceptionally bright student. I'd say that managing the Animagus 
transformation at age 15 is quite something, unless you think that 
given the fact that Rita Skeeter is an Animagus, too, it's not
a big deal. I really don't think so. There were only seven registered 
Animagi in the 20th century, and I have a feeling that although we 
might think there are lots of unregistered Animagi running around, 
there aren't. Even Dumbledore was impressed by this achievement of 
Sirius, James and Peter.

Amy wrote:

> Hoo boy.  I should get the heck out of the way before I get run 
over 
> by a stampeding Carole, but I'm gonna get my 2 knuts in before I 
dive 
> out of the crossfire, if I may mix a metaphor.

Amy, don't you know that we are two now and that the crossfire will 
come from two sides? <g>

Koinonia wrote:

> Oh.....but come on......I am not even talking about the number of 
> Snape threads compared to Sirius, James, Lupin, or anyone else. I 
was 
> referring to how the characters are portrayed in the books.  I know 
> there are others out there who feel as I do.  As much as I love the 
> trio and Lily, I do get tired of hearing about how perfect they 
are, 
> that's all.  We all have our favorite characters.  If someone 
doesn't 
> like Snape that is fine with me.  If I find Sirius boring (I don't) 
> then shouldn't I have a right to feel that way?  Jeez....aren't we 
> allowed to have our own opinions about the characters?  Sure seems 
> like there are many different opinions on this board and others!

Of course you have the right to have your opinion, as anyone else on
this list. But Carole is right when she says that Sirius isn't 
discussed as much as Snape. I admit that there are times when I 
delete every message that has Snape in the subject. It's not that I 
don't find him interesting, but I don't think he's the most developed 
character in the books, and I sadly don't have the time to read all 
the messages anyway. And I truly can't remember many messages that 
said that Sirius was perfect. Sexy, yes, but that's not quite the 
same, isn't it?

Well, I just had to add a few comments before attacking the cake 
later this morning.

Monika







From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Tue May 22 06:42:53 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:42:53 -0000
Subject: Lupin speaking Voldemort's Name
In-Reply-To: <9ec72v+htpt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ed1pd+vs9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19168

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:

> > 3) Lupin says the name Voldemort out loud. What does this say 
about him?
I just love Lupin!  He seems to be nearly fearless while being 
> cautious at the same time.  He chooses his words very carefully, as 
> well as who to say certain words to. As far as saying Voldie's 
name, hell, if I was a werewolf, what would I care about saying 
Voldie's  name out loud?  I'll bet when he and James were friends 
they sat around saying "Voldemort" out loud all day long.  However, I 
don't think he'd say Voldemort to just anyone.
> > 


IMO Remus would say Voldemort's name no matter to whom he was 
speaking. Saying You-Know-Who or He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named just 
prepetuates the fear of Moldy Voldie. He's been gone for pretty much 
12 years and people still can't say his name because they're afraid. 
As you said Remus is pretty fearless and I don't think he wants to 
give Voldie that power. I think that's also why he tells Harry to 
call Voldermort by his name as well.



> > 4) Was Harry foolish in telling Lupin about Snape?
> 
> Not at all!  Harry is just dying to find an adult who he can trust. 
Lupin has clearly reached out to Harry, and Harry would hate to see 
> Lupin be hurt or tricked by someone as nasty as Snape.  Harry is 
also observant enough to see that Snape isn't too crazy about Lupin.  
What I'm not sure about is why Lupin has no reaction at all to 
Harry's comments.  I wish he had said something, even "Oh, really?".  
Harry must have felt a bit stupid there.
> > 


When Harry first starts to tell Lupin about Snape wanting the DADA 
position Remus does casually say "Really?"  The exact quote is:

'"Really?" said Lupin, looking only mildly interested as he took 
another gulp of potion."'

Cheers,
       Kristin 
::who is a bit obsessed with Remus::





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May 22 07:19:26 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:19:26 -0000
Subject: defense of Sirius and James
In-Reply-To: <007701c0e22f$85a383c0$914dd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9ed3tu+dmfb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19169

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Magda Grantwich" <mgrantwich at y...>

Carole wrote:
> It seems to me they were pretty great guys.  They (James and 
Sirius) went
> through an awful lot for their friend (animagi transformation).  
They went
> out of their way and beyond their cultures inate prejudices against
> werewolves to befriend Remus and make him feel comfortable each 
month during
> his transformations.  They could have simply said..."well see you 
in a
> couple of days" but no they actively endangered themselves in order 
to help
> remus.
Magda wrote:
> > I agree.  Lupin's alright and the jury's still out on James 
(respect
> > for the dead and all that) but even after reading GoF, I haven't
> > changed my opinion of Sirius Black.  He strikes me as one of those
> > charming guys that are great in their 20's but don't marry or 
mature
> > like their friends.  The kind of guy who'll still show up on his
> > motorbike in a black leather jacket (which is getting a tad snug
> > around the waist) and expect his married buds to join him at the 
pub
> > on the night that their kids are playing a semi-final soccer game.

Carole wrote:
> I'll agree that he was probably that type of guy (without the 
jacket getting
> snug) before Azkaban.
> 
> However, if you read the scene where he talks to the trio in the 
cave in
> Hogsmead (GoF, Padfoot Returns) he has a lot to say about what 
makes a good
> father, a good father.  He points out that Crouch should have spent 
more
> time at home rather than at the office.  This leads me to think he 
has a
> clue about  family priorities in the post Azkaban era.  So no I 
don't agree
> that he's be that kind of guy post-Azkaban.

I'd like to second this.  To say that Sirius is one of those 
immature, irresponsible men who forever think they are cool and never 
grow up is doing him a disservice.  Sirius, IMO, has a very strong 
sense of right and wrong/loyalty and regard for his friends and 
family.  His speech in the Shrieking Shack when confronting Pettigrew 
about why he betrayed James bears testament to that "Then you should 
have died - as we would have done for you" (paraphrase?).

He is also very prepared to take responsibility for Harry - indeed, 
he wants to - the smile which breaks across his face when he finds 
that Harry wants to live with him touches me everytime.  He is also 
not the kind of guardian who wants to just do what will keep him in 
favour, something akin to a step parent trying to get a child to like 
them, but he wants to do what is right for Harry.  There is more than 
one occassion in GoF when Harry is slightly resentful of the way 
Sirius is looking out for him and telling what to do and what not to 
do.  This isn't taking the easier option, in my view.  Finally, as 
Ron says, "Poor old Snuffles....he must really like you, 
Harry...imagine having to live off rats."  Sirius has put himself to 
a great deal of trouble, discomfort, and danger by coming back to 
keep an eye on/help Harry.  This doesn't smack of someone who is not 
prepared to face their responsibilities.

Catherine




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 08:36:29 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:36:29 -0000
Subject: Lupin's observations
In-Reply-To: <9ecbln+a2t3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ed8ed+6v03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19170

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> > 2. Lupin's Observations
> > 
> > A great deal is being made about Lupin noticing Peter
> > Pettigrew on the Marauder's Map.  But I was just
> > reading this section of PoA to my son last night, and
> > I noticed a problem (I think).  Hermione wants to know
> > how Lupin knew what he knew, and he tells them that he
> > saw three of them (on the map) going to Hagrid's, but
> > four coming back.  The problem I'm having is that the
> > time-traveling Harry and Hermione are lurking right
> > outside Hagrid's listening to their non-time-traveling
> > selves coming and going.  The TT Harry and Hermione
> > should have been seen by Lupin on the map.  Lupin goes
> > out of his way to do quite a sales job on the map,
> > talking about how infallible it is, how it's not
> > fooled by invisibility cloaks or Animagi in their
> > animal form (and we find out in GoF, it's also not
> > fooled by Polyjuice Potion--Moody/Crouch).  Am I
> > crazy?  Shouldn't Lupin have seen an extra Harry and
> > an extra Hermione on the map because of their time
> > traveling?
> 
> That's the problem - but I think the map was made by the students,
> much more effort went into the very fancy presentation than into the
> design, and I think its design doesn't allow for one person to be
> shown in more than one place.  It's connected to everyone in the
> school through a set of wizard photographs, or something.  But when
> Harry and Hermione use the Time-Turner to double back, they don't
> double up in their photographs as well.
> 
 Perhaps or perhaps Lupin just stopped looking for them one he'd seen 
one set on the map. After all he'd only be expecting one version of 
H/H/R to exist and once he'd found them there would be little point 
to continue scanning the map if he wanted to go and get them back 
into the castle quickly.

 Jen




From zenonah at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 08:55:44 2001
From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:55:44 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
Message-ID: <9ed9ig+lqfv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19171

I just began reading PS again and this hit me:

" 'My dear Professor, surely a sensible person like yourself can call 
him by his name? All this ""You-Know-Who" nonsense - for eleven years 
I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper name: 
Voldemort.' Professor McGonagall flinched, but Dumbledore, who was 
unsticking two sherbet lemons, seemed not to notice. "

1. I think James, Lupin and Black are using name Voldemort because 
they've been very close to Dumledore, who has "been trying to 
persuade..."

2.Can we because of this assume that everybody who uses name 
Voldemort are close to Dumledore? (Of course many wizards close to 
Dumbledore are too afraid to say it, like Professor McGonagall. 
Though I think some of them would propably feel courageous enough to 
say it when they're with Dumledore, but not elsewhere. And IIRC, 
wizards on the Dark Side say Dark Lord, not Voldemort. This has been 
discussed.)

Jenny




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Tue May 22 09:27:46 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:27:46 -0000
Subject: Snape's puzzle
In-Reply-To: <3B09BE1C.8072B96C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9edbei+cgjj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19172

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> 
> > Btw, am I right in thinking that not enough information is given 
for
> > the reader to solve the potions puzzle?
> 
> You are correct. Another complaint my husband made, that without a
> visual, the best a reader can do is narrow it to (I believe) three
> choices. Me, I'm lousy at that sort of puzzle, I just read it and 
took
> Hermione's word.
> 

I have always assumed that there is not enough information given, and 
therefore never attempted the puzzle, because Hermione has more 
information than the reader.  The clues describe the bottles partly 
by size, and we can't see where, for example, the biggest one is - 
but Hermione can. How about another contest here - given what she 
says about where the 'forward' and 'back' bottles are, can we 
reconstruct the rest of the puzzle?  Or a real mathematician's 
challenge, to prove that Snapes clues *are* adequate, given you can 
see the bottles.

David




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Tue May 22 10:04:28 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:04:28 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's puzzle
In-Reply-To: <9edbei+cgjj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEHADJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 19173

Robert: <<<Btw, am I right in thinking that not enough information is given
for the reader to solve the potions puzzle?>>>
Amanda: <<<You are correct. Another complaint my husband made, that without a
visual, the best a reader can do is narrow it to (I believe) three choices.
Me, I'm lousy at that sort of puzzle, I just read it and took Hermione's
word.>>>
David: <<<I have always assumed that there is not enough information given,
and therefore never attempted the puzzle, because Hermione has more
information than the reader.  The clues describe the bottles partly by size,
and we can't see where, for example, the biggest one is - but Hermione can.
How about another contest here - given what she says about where the 'forward'
and 'back' bottles are, can we reconstruct the rest of the puzzle?  Or a real
mathematician's challenge, to prove that Snapes clues *are* adequate, given
you can see the bottles.>>>

My comment on this would be that we do not have enough information as we do
not have a visual of the bottles. If we could work it out with the clues given
then Snape, to my mind, is acting very kindly. This is because if we, as the
readers, have enough clues to solve the puzzle then the person arriving at the
puzzle in PS will have more than enough clues to solve the puzzle. In this
case at least one of the clues will be redundant, which to me is not very
likely as Snape is the one setting the puzzle.

I do not have PS with me so I cannot look at the puzzle again, but would guess
that you cannot totally reconstruct all of the puzzle, This is because the
clues are a mixture of size and position, hence meaning that you will only be
able to reconstruct as much information as we are told in the puzzle. I also
seem to recall that Hermione picks up the bottle and gives it to Harry without
every saying where it is in the line.


Simon (who takes a break from maths only to find people discussing logic
puzzles and necessary vs sufficient clues to solve problems)
--
"Paternity leave is available to all permanent staff, irrespective of gender."
>From an internal document of a bank in the City of London
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue May 22 10:13:35 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:13:35 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
In-Reply-To: <9ed9ig+lqfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ede4f+9169@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19174

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jenny T. Malmiola" <zenonah at y...> wrote:
> I just began reading PS again and this hit me:
> 
> " 'My dear Professor, surely a sensible person like yourself can 
call 
> him by his name? All this ""You-Know-Who" nonsense - for eleven 
years 
> I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper 
name: 
> Voldemort.' Professor McGonagall flinched, but Dumbledore, who was 
> unsticking two sherbet lemons, seemed not to notice. "
> 
> 1. I think James, Lupin and Black are using name Voldemort because 
> they've been very close to Dumledore, who has "been trying to 
> persuade..."
> 
> 2.Can we because of this assume that everybody who uses name 
> Voldemort are close to Dumledore? (Of course many wizards close to 
> Dumbledore are too afraid to say it, like Professor McGonagall. 
> Though I think some of them would propably feel courageous enough 
to 
> say it when they're with Dumledore, but not elsewhere. And IIRC, 
> wizards on the Dark Side say Dark Lord, not Voldemort. This has 
been 
> discussed.)
> 
> Jenny

I just had a thought, on reading this, that I don't recall Snape ever 
referring to Voldemort directly by name, or by "he who must not be 
named" or "you know who."  Then I checked the end of GoF, to see how 
he refers to him when he is showing Fudge the Dark Mark.  He, like 
Crouch-as-Moody and Crouch as himself refers to him as the "Dark 
Lord."  This surprised me.  I would have thought that Snape would be 
able to say Voldemort - was he compromising because he was talking to 
the Minister, or does this have more sinister overtones (which btw, I 
don't believe - I think Snape is very much on the side of Dumbledore.)

Catherine




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue May 22 12:25:21 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:25:21 -0000
Subject: defense of Sirius and James
In-Reply-To: <9ed3tu+dmfb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9edlrh+c9m7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19176

Catherine wrote:
> 
> He is also very prepared to take responsibility for Harry - indeed, 
> he wants to - the smile which breaks across his face when he finds 
> that Harry wants to live with him touches me everytime.  He is also 
> not the kind of guardian who wants to just do what will keep him in 
> favour, something akin to a step parent trying to get a child to 
like 
> them, but he wants to do what is right for Harry.  There is more 
than 
> one occassion in GoF when Harry is slightly resentful of the way 
> Sirius is looking out for him and telling what to do and what not 
to 
> do.  This isn't taking the easier option, in my view.  Finally, as 
> Ron says, "Poor old Snuffles....he must really like you, 
> Harry...imagine having to live off rats."  Sirius has put himself 
to 
> a great deal of trouble, discomfort, and danger by coming back to 
> keep an eye on/help Harry.  This doesn't smack of someone who is 
not 
> prepared to face their responsibilities.
> 
I don't know why I keep posting these days - there are just too many 
good things people are writing, I guess!  Anyway, I agree with you, 
Catherine (and everyone else who does not think Sirius is 
irresponsible).  I think that if JKR intended to make Sirius studly, 
commitment-phobic and irresponsible, she'd have made him a much more 
comical character; perhaps like Lockhart was.  Sirius is someone who 
should be taken, uh, seriously (or should I say Siriusly?).  I think 
JKR has made a point of letting us know how committed to Harry Sirius 
really is - Ron's observations about Sirius eating rats is an 
excellent example of that.

--jenny from ravenclaw*********************************************




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 12:53:55 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:53:55 -0000
Subject: In defense of Sirius
In-Reply-To: <9ecvnv+97rk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ednh3+8tkc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19177

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., monika at d... wrote:
!
> 
> Of course you have the right to have your opinion, as anyone else on
> this list. But Carole is right when she says that Sirius isn't 
> discussed as much as Snape. I admit that there are times when I 
> delete every message that has Snape in the subject. It's not that I 
> don't find him interesting, but I don't think he's the most 
developed 
> character in the books, and I sadly don't have the time to read all 
> the messages anyway. And I truly can't remember many messages that 
> said that Sirius was perfect. Sexy, yes, but that's not quite the 
> same, isn't it?

Again, I am not talking about how much Sirius or the others have been 
discussed on this board.  I am talking about the way they are 
portrayed in the books.  Two completely different things.  

I too use the delete button.  Example:  How many students are there 
at Hogwarts?  So I can understand that when some see *Snape* in the 
heading they delete it.  No big deal. 

Honestly, there is just too much time in between books.  We need 
something new to discuss.  Maybe it's time for JKR to give another 
interview and let some new info slip out!

Koinonia  




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 12:58:20 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:58:20 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
In-Reply-To: <9ede4f+9169@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ednpc+8995@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19178

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> I just had a thought, on reading this, that I don't recall Snape 
ever 
> referring to Voldemort directly by name, or by "he who must not be 
> named" or "you know who."  Then I checked the end of GoF, to see 
how 
> he refers to him when he is showing Fudge the Dark Mark.  He, like 
> Crouch-as-Moody and Crouch as himself refers to him as the "Dark 
> Lord."  This surprised me.  I would have thought that Snape would 
be 
> able to say Voldemort - was he compromising because he was talking 
to 
> the Minister, or does this have more sinister overtones (which btw, 
I 
> don't believe - I think Snape is very much on the side of 
Dumbledore.)

It's not a matter of not being able to say Voldemort.  Snape is use 
to addressing him as the "Dark Lord".  That seems to be how the DE's 
address their master. 

BTW:  I would be very disappointed if Snape turned out to truly be a 
bad guy  :(

Koinonia
> 
> Catherine




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 22 12:58:58 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:58:58 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
In-Reply-To: <9ede4f+9169@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ednqi+5gi7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19179

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jenny T. Malmiola" <zenonah at y...> wrote:
> > I just began reading PS again and this hit me:
> > 
 > 
> > 2.Can we because of this assume that everybody who uses name 
> > Voldemort are close to Dumledore? (Of course many wizards close 
to 
> > Dumbledore are too afraid to say it, like Professor McGonagall. 
> > Though I think some of them would propably feel courageous enough 
> to 
> > say it when they're with Dumledore, but not elsewhere. And IIRC, 
> > wizards on the Dark Side say Dark Lord, not Voldemort. This has 
> been 
> > discussed.)

So far, only Dumbledore, Harry, Lupin and Black say the name on a 
routine basis. McGonagall and Hagrid each say the name once in PS/SS, 
but only with great reluctance.  Tom Riddle says the name twice in 
CoS. Moody/Crouch says the name once in his final confrontation with 
Harry in GoF ("Voldemort's back, Harry? You're sure he's back?"), but 
otherwise refers to "the Dark Lord" in this scene.  And, oddly, 
Cornelius Fudge says the name once in his final confrontation with 
Dumbledore in Chap 36 of GoF ("You are prepared to believe that Lord 
Voldemort has returned, on the word of a lunatic murderer, and a boy 
who...well..."

I was in error when I stated recently that Crouch/Moody *never* used 
the name.  AFAIK, no one else has uttered it so far.

  - CMC




From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Tue May 22 13:26:34 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen Dei)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:26:34 +0200
Subject: Sorting Hat & Neville
References: <9eai0f+6l0d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c0e2c3$85e2b060$786c74d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 19180

Robert and Catherine wrote about Neville when discussing the sorting Hat

Robert wrote:
> On reflection, you're right.  The hat does conduct a dialogue with
> each student; it pointed out to Harry the advantages of Slytherin;
> it took a long time over Neville - he was my other misplacement,

and Catherine 

... I also don't think that we have seen enough of Neville yet to 
establish whether he belongs in Gryffindor or not.
BTW: it has been suggested that Neville has had a memory charm 
performed on him.  I had never really thought about this before, but 
it makes sense.  I am listening to the audio versions a lot, and 
whenever Neville is described, JKR always draws attention to his bad 
memory.  Perhaps Neville is only an ineffective wizard because he has 
this memory problem - and perhaps the hat can see the potential in 
him ie. see beyond the reality of Neville the forgetful boy and see 
what he was truly like.  


Oh dear, I may well be told again I am being poetic, but I truly love little Neville and think that within the structure of his personality he shows tremendous courage.  When in PoA Professor McGonagall asks who left the passwords lying about, Neville raises his hand.  That was an act of profound courage, moral courage.  He did something stupid and he openly acknowledged it.  He could have remained silent...who would have known?  The question was not addressed to him personally.  
I suspect (maybe again it will seem I am reading too much into it...) but I think there is a reason why JKR is forever placing Neville at the side of the three heroes: he rides in their boat, in their carriage, finds Fluffy with them, goes to warn them about Draco in Philosopher's Stone.  What more could you want in courage than little Neville diving into battle against Crabbe and Goyle?  It is one thing to sling mud from behind the safe shield of an invisibility cloak, quite another to lunge against the massive muscles of those two as Neville did in Phil. Stone.   Great things will come of him....can poets be prophets?  
"Neville, is he doomed?"  www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/wenk.html

I don't remember who proposed the theory about the memory charm, but it was absolutely brilliant.  I intend to repeat it far and wide...always acknowledging it wasn't my own, of course.  Just brilliant!

Maria
(L.D.)
Lumen Dei
Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop  -- "Have Wand, Will Wave"
www.geocities.com/lumen_dei
To keep it short and simply let anyone who is interested follow the whole at the site....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Tue May 22 13:50:57 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:50:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trio/james/lily/snape/jeez
References: <9ecqs3+9rq6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002001c0e2c6$3c5cf1a0$a973d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19181

From: <koinonia02 at yahoo.com>  yesterday:

> >I am personally tired of hearing
> > about the great trio and James and Lily.....blah!  I love them all
> > but enough is enough  ^_~

This statement seemed to me an effort to cut off discussion of Sirius, the
trio and James/Lily/etc. Sorry if that was not what you meant, but the
statement above kind of implies that you didn't want to hear anymore about
it...after what maybe 3 posts?


> Oh.....but come on......I am not even talking about the number of
> Snape threads compared to Sirius, James, Lupin, or anyone else.

Sorry I misinterpretted, but you've gotta admit that's what it sounded like.

>I was
> referring to how the characters are portrayed in the books.  I know
> there are others out there who feel as I do.  As much as I love the
> trio and Lily, I do get tired of hearing about how perfect they are,
> that's all.

I really don't think anyone is portrayed as overly perfect in the
books...isn't THAT what makes these characters interesting enough to spend
hundreds of messages a day on them?

>We all have our favorite characters.  If someone doesn't
> like Snape that is fine with me.  If I find Sirius boring (I don't)
> then shouldn't I have a right to feel that way?  Jeez....aren't we
> allowed to have our own opinions about the characters?  Sure seems
> like there are many different opinions on this board and others!

Absolutely...that's exactly  why I took exception to your message.  I felt
like you were trying to limit discussion by saying "enough is enough."

As I said I obviously misinterpreted.

carole






From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue May 22 14:25:40 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:25:40 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
In-Reply-To: <9ed9ig+lqfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9edst4+cikv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19182

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jenny T. Malmiola" <zenonah at y...> wrote:
> I just began reading PS again and this hit me:
> 
> " 'My dear Professor, surely a sensible person like yourself can 
call 
> him by his name? All this ""You-Know-Who" nonsense - for eleven 
years 
> I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper 
name: 
> Voldemort.' Professor McGonagall flinched, but Dumbledore, who was 
> unsticking two sherbet lemons, seemed not to notice. "
> 
> 1. I think James, Lupin and Black are using name Voldemort because 
> they've been very close to Dumledore, who has "been trying to 
> persuade..."
> 
> 2.Can we because of this assume that everybody who uses name 
> Voldemort are close to Dumledore? (Of course many wizards close to 
> Dumbledore are too afraid to say it, like Professor McGonagall. 
> Though I think some of them would propably feel courageous enough to 
> say it when they're with Dumledore, but not elsewhere. And IIRC, 
> wizards on the Dark Side say Dark Lord, not Voldemort. This has been 
> discussed.)
> 
> Jenny

Maybe Dumbledore, Lupin and Sirius are the only ones who believe in 
the Laws of Magic. Apparently there is a "Law of Names" . 
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/l/laws_of_magic.html
<quoted>The Law of Names is related to both the Law of Knowledge and 
the Law of Association. The law simply states that by knowing the
true and complete name of an phenomena or entity gives you complete 
control over it. There are two premises upon which this law
is based: First, a name is simply a symbol of the definition of an 
phenomena or an entity. If the phenomena is fire, one simply says fire
instead of describing the whole phenomena of fire. If the entity is a 
man, one just says a man. The names or terms fire and man
convey the definitions of fire and man. Names convey definitions to 
others provided they are spoken in a mutual language spoken by
both the speaker and listeners.<quoted>

Milz




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue May 22 15:02:19 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:02:19 -0000
Subject: Anti Virus Program
Message-ID: <9edv1r+nkrk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19183

Hi

I don't know about anyone else, but I have been having one bad 
experience with a virus that I got from HPFGU. (mostly because I 
didn't have my virus update set correctly) As soon as I updated my 
anti virus program, InoculateIT, it found and deleted the virus.

If anyone needs a free, top-knotch anti virus program, it is called, 
InoculateIT and it can be downloaded at http://www.antivirus.cai.com/

Doreen, virus-free, finally




From jrichard at atpco.com  Tue May 22 15:03:23 2001
From: jrichard at atpco.com (jrichard at atpco.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:03:23 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Viktor Krum
In-Reply-To: <9ebi9h+q7mg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9edv3r+4hbg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19184

Hey, y'all, I'm Jenn, and wanted to duck out of the shadows of 
lurkerdom to ask something (and please forgive me if this has been 
covered):

In GoF, Fleur mentions she wants the improve her English with a job 
at Hogwarts. What can we expect from her? (Somehow, I don't think 
she'll be scrubbing pots with the house elves.) Will she return, or 
was her mention of working at Hogwarts a red herring?




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue May 22 15:40:12 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:40:12 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
Message-ID: <9ee18s+m9l3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19185



According to the Sorting Hat, the Hufflepuffs are "just", "loyal", 
"true", and hard-workers. These are admirable qualities. So why is 
Hufflepuff regarded as 'de classe'? Hagrid mentioned to Harry that 
some people think they are "duffers". Draco Malfoy acted as though it 
would be the end of the world if he was sorted into Hufflepuff (but 
considering Draco's family background it probably would be 
un-Malfoy-like to be sorted into a House that values among other 
things loyality and justness.) Granted, we haven't read about many 
Hufflepuffs, but Cedric Diggory seemed to be a decent fellow. 

I get the impression that Hufflepuff is considered the "reject" House 
by many characters and many readers. That is, the Sorting Hat dumps 
students who cannot fit into the other three Houses into Hufflepuff.  
Let's assume that the Sorting Hat looks for a student's most 
outstanding quality, then the Hufflepuffs are the *most* just, loyal, 
true and hard-working students in Hogwarts. However, the general 
attitude is still that the Hufflepuffs are somehow 'de classe'. What 
does this say about the magical community (and our own society for 
that matter)? Are the qualities of justness, loyality, and hard-work 
valued less than other qualities or are they considered so commonplace 
that they are overlooked as admirable?

Milz





From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Tue May 22 15:49:02 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:49:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
Message-ID: <20010522.104903.-486733.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19186

I don't think that the Hufflepuff qualities should make people think they
are lower than the other houses. But I thought about it and I realized
that you could solve the problem sort of like a puzzle. 
	If you took one student from each of the Hogwarts Houses and set them
down, how would they solve it?
	Gryffindors would come up with a daring solution, that uses their
bravery and 	cleverness.
	Slytherins would come up with a cunning solution, solving the problem
using 	as many shortcuts as possible.
	Ravenclaws would come up with an intelligent solution, using their
brains to 	solve the problem.
	Hufflepuffs would come up with a solution that involves hard work and
thought, 	that might take time and effort to effect.

That might be the reason why they are sort of looked down upon, because
the other Houses use quicker tactics to solve the problem. Also, how many
students enjoy hard work? They probably say, 'I got to the solution
faster with less work. That makes me better than the Hufflepuffs.' Of
course, that's not true, because if everybody reaches the solution,
albeit in different ways, they're all equal. 

Sara
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my **120%** Harry Potter Obsession Rating (Thank you,
fanfiction!)

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 16:03:52 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:03:52 -0000
Subject: trio/james/lily/snape/jeez
In-Reply-To: <002001c0e2c6$3c5cf1a0$a973d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9ee2l8+ahd0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19187

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> Absolutely...that's exactly  why I took exception to your message.  
I felt
> like you were trying to limit discussion by saying "enough is 
enough."


Surely there could never be enough discussion about a man who eats 
rats! Or one who turns into a werewolf.

Koinonia




From devika261 at aol.com  Tue May 22 16:30:47 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:30:47 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Fleur's Return
Message-ID: <8f.b2b6301.283bee37@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19188

In a message dated 5/22/01 11:08:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jrichard at atpco.com writes:


> In GoF, Fleur mentions she wants the improve her English with a job 
> at Hogwarts. What can we expect from her? (Somehow, I don't think 
> she'll be scrubbing pots with the house elves.) Will she return, or 
> was her mention of working at Hogwarts a red herring?
> 

I'm pretty sure Fleur will be back, although I can't for the life of me 
figure out what job she will have at Hogwarts.  I know the new DADA teacher 
is supposed to be female, but I don't think it will be Fleur, somehow 
(although that might make for some amusing situations).  What I've noticed is 
that so far, IIRC, there have been two people besides Fleur who have said in 
so many words that they would return.  At the end of PoA, Sirius says to 
Harry, "We'll see each other again," and he does return in GoF.  Before Lupin 
leaves in PoA, he also says to Harry,"I feel sure we'll meet again sometime," 
and we've heard that he's making an appearance in OoTP.  It seems that when 
people specifically say that they're coming back, they actually end up coming 
back in a later book.  So I've answered that part of the question anyway, but 
as for what we can expect from her, I for one am just going to have to wait 
for OoTP.
Devika :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 16:31:25 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:31:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
In-Reply-To: <9ee18s+m9l3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010522163125.22045.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19189


--- Milz <absinthe at mad.scientist.com> wrote:
> However, the general 
> attitude is still that the Hufflepuffs are somehow 'de classe'. What 
> does this say about the magical community (and our own society for 
> that matter)? Are the qualities of justness, loyality, and hard-work 
> valued less than other qualities or are they considered so
> commonplace 
> that they are overlooked as admirable?

Well, let's compare their qualities to the other houses. Gryffindor's
seem to be classed as the "Heroes" of the school. They're "brave at
heart", daring, bravest, and have nerve. Honestly, who wouldn't want to
be a Hero? Slytherin's are the crafty ones, the power-hungry. They know
how to get things, how to sway the world their way. They are the
"Villains" of the school. Who hasn't wanted to be the Bad Guy, just
once? Ravenclaws are smart, the "cleverest", have wit. They're the ones
with the answers. Who wouldn't kill to be smart enough to have all the
answers?

And what about the Hufflepuffs? To quote the Sorting Hat:

"You might belong in Hufflepuff, 
Where they are just and loyal, 
Those patient Hufflepuffs are true 
And unfraid of toil;"

Toil? Patience? What kid fosters these values? Heck, I'd say most
adults when describing their best qualities don't say "I toil well".
What kid wants to be known as the "Toiler" or the "Patient One". No!
They want to be the Hero, the Smart One, or if that's not possible, the
Villain. Nobody wants to be labelled as the "Hard Worker" because the
"Hard Worker" rarely gets the credit due to them.

I think this type of thought isn't just evident in the wizarding
community, it's in our own everyday society. The daring, brave, crafty,
smart, are lauded above the patient and hardworking. I'm not saying
that's the way it should be, that's just the way it is.

Did this make any sense? If I've veered off course, please correct me!
And of course, this is all my opinion, I'm sure others think very
differently.

~Amber


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the every approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 16:37:54 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
In-Reply-To: <20010522.104903.-486733.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20010522163754.39270.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19190


Another good question is:

What is the proportion of Muggle-born students in each
house?  Because of the fact that Hufflepuffs aren't
afraid of hard work, would Hufflepuff wind up with the
most Muggle-borns?  Are there any Muggle-borns at all
in Slytherin?  And if Dark Wizards ever took over
Hogwarts and decreed that Muggle-borns would no longer
be accepted, would Slytherin have twice as many
students as the other houses (which otherwise would
have had some Muggle-borns)?  Any thoughts, anyone?

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From jenfold at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 17:02:11 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:02:11 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Fleur's Return
In-Reply-To: <8f.b2b6301.283bee37@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ee62j+ka2k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19191

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/22/01 11:08:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> jrichard at a... writes:
> 
> 
> > In GoF, Fleur mentions she wants the improve her English with a 
job 
> > at Hogwarts. What can we expect from her? (Somehow, I don't think 
> > she'll be scrubbing pots with the house elves.) Will she return, 
or 
> > was her mention of working at Hogwarts a red herring?
> > 
> 
> I'm pretty sure Fleur will be back, although I can't for the life 
of me 
> figure out what job she will have at Hogwarts.  I know the new DADA 
teacher 
> is supposed to be female, but I don't think it will be Fleur, 
somehow 
> (although that might make for some amusing situations).  What I've 
noticed is 
> that so far, IIRC, there have been two people besides Fleur who 
have said in 
> so many words that they would return.  At the end of PoA, Sirius 
says to 
> Harry, "We'll see each other again," and he does return in GoF.  
Before Lupin 
> leaves in PoA, he also says to Harry,"I feel sure we'll meet again 
sometime," 
> and we've heard that he's making an appearance in OoTP.  It seems 
that when 
> people specifically say that they're coming back, they actually end 
up coming 
> back in a later book.  So I've answered that part of the question 
anyway, but 
> as for what we can expect from her, I for one am just going to have 
to wait 
> for OoTP.
> Devika :)
> 

 Did Fleur actually say she wanted to work at Hogwarts?

 Personally I can see Fleur working in the Hogshead at Hogsmeade, 
giving Ron even more opportunities to turn red when in the pub. 
Talking to all the customers would be a good way for her to practise 
her English.

 I can't see Fleur teaching especially DADA unless she was supervised 
by another more experinced teacher. Dumbledore may have felt 
relatively free to mess about by using Lockhart as a teacher in CoS, 
but now that he's aware that Voldemort is really back he needs to 
employ a very good DADA teacher to teach the students how to protect 
themselves.

 On another Fleur matter: hands up those who think she'll get 
together with Bill. Just imagine Fleur visiting the Weasley family 
home and distracting all the men.

 Jen


 




From devika261 at aol.com  Tue May 22 17:08:41 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:08:41 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
Message-ID: <92.1505e687.283bf719@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19192

In a message dated 5/22/01 12:47:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
blpurdom at yahoo.com writes:


> What is the proportion of Muggle-born students in each
> house?  Because of the fact that Hufflepuffs aren't
> afraid of hard work, would Hufflepuff wind up with the
> most Muggle-borns?  Are there any Muggle-borns at all
> in Slytherin?  And if Dark Wizards ever took over
> Hogwarts and decreed that Muggle-borns would no longer
> be accepted, would Slytherin have twice as many
> students as the other houses (which otherwise would
> have had some Muggle-borns)?  Any thoughts, anyone?
> 
> 

At first thought, it seems unlikely that there would be Muggle-borns in 
Slytherin.  The Sorting Hat was made so that it could carry on the 
preferences of the four original founders of the school, and Slytherin was 
very much against having Muggle-borns in the school, and especially in his 
own house.  Of course, Tom Riddle was a half-blood, but maybe an exception 
was made for the heir of Slytherin who would end up killing his Muggle father 
and grandparents and who would later wage a war against all Muggles and 
Muggle-borns.  Or maybe half-bloods are allowed.  In any case, I think that 
if I were Muggle-born, or even a half-blood, who was in Slytherin, I wouldn't 
want to discuss my family very much...but then maybe I wouldn't be put in 
Slytherin in the first place.  It seems likely that a Muggle-born student 
might hear enough about Slytherin House on the Hogwarts Express to know that 
he or she would not belong there.  And the Sorting Hat would probably not put 
a student in a house that he knew he did not want to be in.
As for the number of Muggle-borns in other houses, I think they might be 
roughly equal.  We don't really know too much about the students in the other 
houses, although we know that Justin Finch-Fletchley, a Hufflepuff, is 
Muggle-born.  But then there are also Cedric Diggory and Ernie Macmillan, who 
are both pure-blood wizards.  In Gryffindor, we know Hermione is Muggle-born, 
and Seamus Finnigan is a half-blood.  I think there's also evidence to the 
fact that Lavender Brown might be Muggle-born.  And isn't Dean Thomas 
Muggle-born as well?  We don't know much about Ravenclaw, but I would assume 
that the number of Muggle-borns in each house would be about the same, except 
for Slytherin.
Sorry if I was rambling :)
Devika


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From devika261 at aol.com  Tue May 22 17:11:35 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:11:35 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Fleur's Return
Message-ID: <8d.6d772e4.283bf7c7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19193

In a message dated 5/22/01 1:06:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jenfold at yahoo.com writes:


> On another Fleur matter: hands up those who think she'll get 
> together with Bill. Just imagine Fleur visiting the Weasley family 
> home and distracting all the men.
> 

My hand is in the air--I must look a lot like Hermione when she's trying to 
answer a question in class :)
Devika


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From devika261 at aol.com  Tue May 22 17:16:25 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:16:25 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Dobby and Apparition
Message-ID: <d.150b6003.283bf8e9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19194

I was looking through CoS to see if Dobby said something that would 
foreshadow his return in GoF.  I couldn't find anything, but I did notice 
something that I noticed a while ago but then forgot about.  I don't know if 
this has been covered before...

"Dobby threw his arms around Harry's middle and hugged him.  'Harry Potter is 
greater by far than Dobby knew!' he sobbed.  'Farewell, Harry Potter!'  And 
with a final loud crack, Dobby disappeared" (CoS, Dobby's Reward).

It seems to me that Dobby just Disapparated.  And he did it before, when he 
visited Harry in the hospital wing.  Now, I haven't read Hogwarts, A History, 
but I do know that you aren't supposed to be able to Apparate or Disapparate 
inside Hogwarts.  Is this a red flag?  Just how powerful are house elves, 
anyway?  I know someone in one of the books (I'm not sure which, at the 
moment) said that house elves have a powerful magic of their own, but that 
they're not allowed to use it without their master's permission.  Any 
thoughts?
Devika :)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 17:19:29 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:19:29 -0000
Subject: Sneakoscope (was Red Herrings)
In-Reply-To: <9ebtri+24e3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ee731+28to@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19195

First there was Milz:

> Milz wrote:
> > 
> > Sneakoscope: Harry's sneakoscope IS a toy. According to Ron, Bill 
> said it was rubbish but it was squealing at the same time because 
> Fred and George were playing a prank. It went off again when Ron 
> was tying it to Errol's leg and Ron wasn't supposed to use Ron. The 
> next time it went off was on the Hogwarts Express. For a toy, it 
> seems pretty accurate, but Harry tucks it away in his trunk.

Then Trina replied:
 
> But the question you must consider is this:  Was Scabbers (aka 
> Pettigrew) in Ron's pocket at these times?  During the trip to 
> Hogwarts he was.  It squealed once more in the boys' dormitory at 
> Christmas and Scabbers was there too.  Therefore, I, for one, *do 
> not* believe it is a toy.  It actually works.
> 
> Trina

It can be both!  There *are* toys out there that work like their 
"grownup" counterparts - witness EasyBake Ovens and my old toy sewing 
machine that really stitched, but when it ran out of thread, we had 
to look high and low for a new CARTRIDGE instead of just reathreading 
a bobbin or two.  And then there are toy (music) keyboards (work just 
like more professional electronic keyboards, but don't have as many 
features and are more durable.  That's the key.  I think that the 
Sneakoscope Ron bought in the gift shop was meant to work, but meant 
to be for kids.  Therefore, it was built to be roughly handled 
(stuffed in socks?), and probably doesn't have as many features as a 
real one.  Come to think of it, what kind of features *does* a real 
Sneakoscope have?  More sensitive?  Some kind of pointing device that 
specifically names the liar/sneak?  A gauge that describes how big or 
what kind the lie is?  Maybe *that* is why "Moody" had to disable all 
his sneakoscopes... because they were pointing all at him with a big 
"Polyjuice Potion!" sign! ;)

Anyway, in conclusion - everyone is right. ;)

Jen (happy birthday to me!)






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 22 17:51:58 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:51:58 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
In-Reply-To: <20010522163125.22045.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ee8vu+cgeo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19196

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> 

> 

> And what about the Hufflepuffs? To quote the Sorting Hat:
> 
> "You might belong in Hufflepuff, 
> Where they are just and loyal, 
> Those patient Hufflepuffs are true 
> And unfraid of toil;"
> 
> Toil? Patience? What kid fosters these values? Heck, I'd say most
> adults when describing their best qualities don't say "I toil well".
> What kid wants to be known as the "Toiler" or the "Patient One". No!
> They want to be the Hero, the Smart One, or if that's not possible, 
the
> Villain. Nobody wants to be labelled as the "Hard Worker" because 
the
> "Hard Worker" rarely gets the credit due to them.
> 

I think you are right. Sadly, the virtues of Hufflepuff - even the 
name is rather ordinary and perhaps even a bit comic compared to the 
sonorous ring of the other three houses - seems to get overlooked.  
In Chapter 31 of GoF, when Cedric refuses to take the Triwizards cup, 
we are told that "he was walking away from the sort of glory 
Hufflepuff House hadn't had in centuries."  

Centuries?  C'mon, even the Chudley Cannons do better than that...

 - CMC




From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue May 22 17:51:46 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:51:46 -0000
Subject: defense of Sirius and James
In-Reply-To: <9ed3tu+dmfb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ee8vi+tqu3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19197

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> > 
> > Magda wrote:
> > > I agree.  Lupin's alright and the jury's still out on James 
> (respect for the dead and all that) but even after reading GoF, I 
haven't changed my opinion of Sirius Black.  He strikes me as one of 
those charming guys that are great in their 20's but don't marry or 
mature like their friends.  The kind of guy who'll still show up on 
his motorbike in a black leather jacket (which is getting a tad snug
around the waist) and expect his married buds to join him at the 
pub on the night that their kids are playing a semi-final soccer game.
> 
> Carole wrote:
> > I'll agree that he was probably that type of guy (without the 
> jacket getting snug) before Azkaban.

Arthur Fonzarelli springs to mind when I hear this description.  
Fonzie was Mr. Cool, Mr. Suave, Mr. Good-with-the-Girls. But when 
push came to shove, he was a very decent man.  
> > 
> > However, if you read the scene where he talks to the trio in the 
> cave in Hogsmead (GoF, Padfoot Returns) he has a lot to say about 
what makes a good> father, a good father.  He points out that Crouch 
should have spent more time at home rather than at the office.  This 
leads me to think he  has a clue about  family priorities in the post 
Azkaban era.  So no I  don't agree that he's be that kind of guy post-
Azkaban.
> 
I don't even think he was that kind of guy pre-Azkaban.

He agreed to be his best friends' secret keeper in the time of 
Voldemort.  

If he was Mr. Footloose and Fancy-Free he'd have said, "Ah, ask Moony 
or Wormtail to do it, whydon'tcha?"  But he didn't.  He did however 
consider he might not be up to the task and offer up Pettigrew as an 
unlikely target.  But I doubt that was because he was shirking. To 
me,  it seems Sirius had always had his heart in the right place even 
if his mind doesn't quite permit him to act accordingly.

> I'd like to second this.  To say that Sirius is one of those 
> immature, irresponsible men who forever think they are cool and 
never grow up is doing him a disservice.  Sirius, IMO, has a very 
strong sense of right and wrong/loyalty and regard for his friends 
and  family.  His speech in the Shrieking Shack when confronting 
Pettigrew  about why he betrayed James bears testament to that "Then 
you should  have died - as we would have done for you" (paraphrase?).

Absolutely.  He was completely and entirely wracked with guilt. That 
is not the reaction of someone who was glib and flip then [and no 
inkling of such now!]
> 
> He is also very prepared to take responsibility for Harry - indeed, 
> he wants to - the smile which breaks across his face when he finds 
> that Harry wants to live with him touches me everytime.  

Me too.  

And the way it's described in the book.  Harry saw Sirius go 
from "the scary ragged insane prisoner" to  "the man who stood beside 
his father as best man at his wedding."   That Harry's eyes see 
Sirius differently is telling, especially since Sirius did nothing 
more than give a genuine smile through a face full of pain and 
suffering.  

He is also 
> not the kind of guardian who wants to just do what will keep him in 
> favour, something akin to a step parent trying to get a child to 
like  them, but he wants to do what is right for Harry.  There is 
more than  one occassion in GoF when Harry is slightly resentful of 
the way  Sirius is looking out for him and telling what to do and 
what not to  do.  This isn't taking the easier option, in my view.  

Agreed. Not to mention that Harry feels guilty bringing Sirius back 
in GoF.  Sirius sees right through the ploy and comes back to the 
area *anyway*, even knowing full well he's risking capture, 
reimprisonment, or Dementor's Kiss if caught.  Harry's health and 
safety mean *that* much to him [and, okay, yes, well, another shot at 
avenging himself on Pettigrew wouldn't bat a sleek black eyelash 
either!] 

Finally, as  Ron says, "Poor old Snuffles....he must really like you, 
> Harry...imagine having to live off rats."  Sirius has put himself 
to  a great deal of trouble, discomfort, and danger by coming back to 
> keep an eye on/help Harry.  This doesn't smack of someone who is not
> prepared to face their responsibilities.
> 
> Catherine

Indigo





From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 17:56:46 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:56:46 -1000
Subject: Intro/Snape Analysis
Message-ID: <OE28HGmCvoXM7e0C9gu00001af0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19198

Hi. I'm new to the list. I'm young, a mere 19 years old.

Sorry for bringing up Snape again, but he's one of my fav characters. He's
just so intriguing, and perhaps that's why we talk about him a lot, because
of the fact that his character isn't well developed, so there are lots of
speculations being made. I would be very disappointed if he were killed or
turned out to be a villain, both of which are too possible for comfort. Did
Dumbledore ever ask him to say "Voldemort" instead of "Dark Lord?" There are
so many unknowns. We don't know the specifics of his past, and I bet the
question burning on every Snape-fan's mind is what he did to make Dumbledore
trust him, and perhaps why it was he switched sides. I'm sure he didn't turn
for nothing. Why is it that he's so nasty? Was he hurt by Voldemort somehow,
as many Snape-fics suggest? I could go on and on.

Hermione is my other fav character. She's so smart, but we don't know much
about her either. We don't know where she lives, what her house is like,
what kind of wand she has, or whether her parents are proud to have a witch
in the family. She and Dumbledore seem to be the only ones who trust Snape.

I like Lupin and Sirius, though Sirius seems to have too much of a temper at
times. My friend pointed out the parallels between M.W.P.P. and Harry's
gang, if you include Neville as Pettigrew.

Sorry for the long, rambly introductory post. Too many things on my mind,
and sorry if these things were already discussed.

Vicky



From nethilia at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 17:57:00 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:57:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Chapter 8 and 9
In-Reply-To: <990481270.1987.30953.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010522175700.21311.qmail@web3003.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19199

Chapter 8: 

> Discussion Questions:
> 1) Is Crookshanks chewing a dead spider in front of
> Ron a message telling
> him he's on Ron's side?

Probably. Crookies is a smart kitty. Then again, he
could just be trying to traumatize Ron ^_~

> 2) Was Trelawney's prediction about Lavender's
> rabbit in any way
> truthful, or was it all a big coincidence?

Dumb luck. I could understand if Lavender was dreading
it because the rabbit was sick or injured, but random
lunch? Nah...

> 3) Lupin says the name Voldemort out loud. What does
> this say about him?

That's he's not scared of Voldy. Or that he, like
Dumbledore, believes using the real name lessens fear.


> 4) Was Harry foolish in telling Lupin about Snape?

Nope. But Lupin probably knows all about Snape
anyways. 

> 5) (Silly Question) Do you think that there are
> ghost formation gliding
> leagues? Olympics?

Head-put? The Long Glide? the 200m Air butterfly? 

> 6) Why did Sirius slash the painting - didn't he
> know that would give him
> away?

People do stupid things when pissed. He was probably
frustrated. For all we know, he could have been in
Griffendor and the Fat lady was the guard then, and he
hoped she would let him in in good faith. 

Chapter 9:
 
> 1) (Silly Question) Is Hermione the only person to
> read "Hogwarts, A
> History"?

Apparantly. Hermione, like me, reads anything. ^_~

> 2) Did Snape tell Dumbledore about Lupin because he
> holds a grudge
> against the Mauraders, or because he wants the DADA
> job?

I'm thinking more along the lines of the grudge. If
Snape gets the job of DADA, then we'd have to find a
new Potions master, which would just confuse my little
brain...

> 3) Is Malfoy's arm still injured?

Yeah right. If his arm was still injured, I'm mother
to a hippogriff. 

> 4) Despite their constant teasing, does the
> Gryffindors' response to
> Snape's insult prove they all really like Hermione?

Of course. It's probably like me and my sisters. We
can't stand each other one bit, but if you hurt one of
us we'll break your nose. 

> 5) Was Crookshanks outside the dormitory to protect
> Harry?

Nah, I think he was after Scabbers. 

> 6) Why do the dementors come to the Quidditch game?
> Because of Sirius, or
> because of Harry?

Because they want to eat Harry's soul. >=D

> 6a) Why do the dementors continually go after Harry?
> Will this be an
> issue in one of the later books?

Yes. I mean, if Voldemort has them as his natural
allies, what makes you think he wouldn't use them on
Harry? 

--Neth

**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus**


=====
http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
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Two girls. 
One Website. 
Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
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From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue May 22 17:57:15 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:57:15 -0000
Subject: ChronoHarry and ChronoHermione [was Lupin's observations]
In-Reply-To: <9ed8ed+6v03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ee99r+u169@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19200

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> The problem I'm having is that the
> > > time-traveling Harry and Hermione are lurking right
> > > outside Hagrid's listening to their non-time-traveling
> > > selves coming and going.  The TT Harry and Hermione
> > > should have been seen by Lupin on the map.  Lupin goes
> > > out of his way to do quite a sales job on the map,
> > > talking about how infallible it is, how it's not
> > > fooled by invisibility cloaks or Animagi in their
> > > animal form (and we find out in GoF, it's also not
> > > fooled by Polyjuice Potion--Moody/Crouch).  Am I
> > > crazy?  Shouldn't Lupin have seen an extra Harry and
> > > an extra Hermione on the map because of their time
> > > traveling?
> > 
> > That's the problem - but I think the map was made by the students,
> > much more effort went into the very fancy presentation than into 
the
> > design, and I think its design doesn't allow for one person to be
> > shown in more than one place.  It's connected to everyone in the
> > school through a set of wizard photographs, or something.  But 
when
> > Harry and Hermione use the Time-Turner to double back, they don't
> > double up in their photographs as well.
> > 
>  Perhaps or perhaps Lupin just stopped looking for them one he'd 
seen 
> one set on the map. After all he'd only be expecting one version of 
> H/H/R to exist and once he'd found them there would be little point 
> to continue scanning the map if he wanted to go and get them back 
> into the castle quickly.
> 
>  Jen

My concept of this is that the Marauders put all the foiling into the 
Marauders Map they possibly could -- but the Time Turner is a rare 
and closely guarded item, so it's not something they could've planned 
for.


Special permission from the MOM had to be obtained so that Hermione 
could use hers.  Dumbledore himself wasn't simply enough to allow her 
to possess one.

So I imagine the Marauders had heard of one but never got close 
enough opportunity to study one to incorporate a foil for it into the 
map.

That, I believe, is why ChronoHarry and ChronoHermione don't appear 
twice on the map.

Indigo






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue May 22 18:55:15 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:55:15 -0000
Subject: ChronoHarry and ChronoHermione [was Lupin's observations]
In-Reply-To: <9ee99r+u169@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eecmk+mv19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19201

	Lots of interesting observations...but you know, Lupin could have 
seen the time travellers, in which case it's no wonder he thought the 
map was malfunctioning! He might also known about the time turner. It 
could hardly have been secret from the staff, assuming they  had access 
to Hermione's schedule and why wouldn't they? 
	Suppose all the staff knew about it...that would give Dumbledore's 
remark to Snape "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are 
able to be in two places at once" a certain added piquancy. Dumbledore 
is almost daring Snape to spill the beans. And Snape looks between 
Fudge and Dumbledore, no doubt making up his mind, decides that his 
loyalty is still to Dumbledore regardless, and shuts up.
 	Also in regard to the Marauder's Map, you know we are talking 
about a group of four teenage boys...not the best spellers as a 
rule...maybe they meant Marauders' and got it wrong ;)
Pippin

-- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jenfold at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> > The problem I'm having is that the
> > > > time-traveling Harry and Hermione are lurking right
> > > > outside Hagrid's listening to their non-time-traveling
> > > > selves coming and going.  The TT Harry and Hermione
> > > > should have been seen by Lupin on the map.  Lupin goes
> > > > out of his way to do quite a sales job on the map,
> > > > talking about how infallible it is, how it's not
> > > > fooled by invisibility cloaks or Animagi in their
> > > > animal form (and we find out in GoF, it's also not
> > > > fooled by Polyjuice Potion--Moody/Crouch).  Am I
> > > > crazy?  Shouldn't Lupin have seen an extra Harry and
> > > > an extra Hermione on the map because of their time
> > > > traveling?
> > > 
> > > That's the problem - but I think the map was made by the students,
> > > much more effort went into the very fancy presentation than into 
> the
> > > design, and I think its design doesn't allow for one person to be
> > > shown in more than one place.  It's connected to everyone in the
> > > school through a set of wizard photographs, or something.  But 
> when
> > > Harry and Hermione use the Time-Turner to double back, they don't
> > > double up in their photographs as well.
> > > 
> >  Perhaps or perhaps Lupin just stopped looking for them one he'd 
> seen 
> > one set on the map. After all he'd only be expecting one version of 
> > H/H/R to exist and once he'd found them there would be little point 
> > to continue scanning the map if he wanted to go and get them back 
> > into the castle quickly.
> > 
> >  Jen
> 
> My concept of this is that the Marauders put all the foiling into the 
> Marauders Map they possibly could -- but the Time Turner is a rare 
> and closely guarded item, so it's not something they could've planned 
> for.
> 
> 
> Special permission from the MOM had to be obtained so that Hermione 
> could use hers.  Dumbledore himself wasn't simply enough to allow her 
> to possess one.
> 
> So I imagine the Marauders had heard of one but never got close 
> enough opportunity to study one to incorporate a foil for it into the 
> map.
> 
> That, I believe, is why ChronoHarry and ChronoHermione don't appear 
> twice on the map.
> 
> Indigo





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue May 22 19:21:19 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:21:19 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: defense of Sirius and James
In-Reply-To: <9ed3tu+dmfb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0e2f4$612535a0$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19202

This is my first post in this group, so please excuse any inadvertant breach
of group conventions.

I confess to feeling a bit baffled by a couple of recent posts describing
Sirius as "commitmentphobic".  Not only is there nothing in the text to
support this (about the only time we hear of  him pre Azkaban he is trying
to assume the sole care of an orphaned 15month old child) it completely
contrasts with my view of him and James, in that I tend to think that not
being in a lifetime relationship at 22 is pretty normal, and James and Lily
are definitely on the young side to have settled down, especially since
normal wizard lifetimes exceed Muggle ones by about 50% apparently. Had
Voldemort not intervened I  could have imagined James at age 28 or
thereabouts coming home from a long day at wherever he was earning all those
Galleons, tripping over Harry and his bratty siblings, having a huge row
with Lily in which she works off her frustrations at the sidetracking of her
magical career and he works off all his frustrations at his missed
opportunities to play the field, culminating with his final insult "You get
more like your sister Petunia every day", a slammed door, and a trip out to
meet Sirius in the pub, where he makes bitter remarks about women into his
pint and flirts outrageously with the half Veela barmaid just to prove he
isn't past it....

Susan




From partyperson_dpc at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 19:31:42 2001
From: partyperson_dpc at yahoo.com (partyperson_dpc at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:31:42 -0000
Subject: Fleur and OoTP
Message-ID: <9eeequ+8aa3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19203

Hey everyone! I'm new to this group, but have really been enjoying 
the ongoing discussions. I'm pretty young for this group being not a 
grown-up and only fourteen, but I still enjoy all the discussions. I 
wanted to comment on the part in the fourth book when Fleur says that 
something about coming back to improve her English. (paraphrasing--
the book's not exactly open in my lap) Many people have been asking 
what they think she will do in Book Five, and this is just my take. 
What if she worked with Hagrid, sort of as an internship thing with 
the Care of Magical Creatures class? Because Hagrid might have to 
leave sometime during the year...or he might have already left with 
all the work with the giants that he and Madame Maxime are to take 
care of. So couldn't Fleur take over? Just my thoughts. I hope Fleur 
does come and work there somehow AND dates Bill. Ron's reactions to 
Fleur (and with them, Hermione's reactions to Ron's) are always 
hilarious. Surely, J.K. will see the comic possibilities there and 
bring her back. Here's hoping!

~Ev 




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 19:35:03 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:35:03 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Dobby and Apparition
In-Reply-To: <d.150b6003.283bf8e9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9eef17+7vlf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19204

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> It seems to me that Dobby just Disapparated.  And he did it
> before, when he visited Harry in the hospital wing.  Now, I haven't
> read Hogwarts, A History, but I do know that you aren't supposed to
> be able to Apparate or Disapparate inside Hogwarts.  Is this a red
> flag?  Just how powerful are house elves, anyway?  I know someone
> in one of the books (I'm not sure which, at the moment) said that
> house elves have a powerful magic of their own, but that they're
> not allowed to use it without their master's permission.

This has come up before, and I believe the consensus fell along the
lines that (1) the house elves weren't invoking an "Apparate" or
"Disapparate" spell, but rather were doing something that is part
of their "nature" and that (2) this nature does include a different
sort of magic than what the wizards use.

I believe the "real world" analogy was drawn with different modes of
flight: birds, bats, insects, and pterodons use (or used) various
wings; mammals other than bats glide; various fish thrust themselves
from water; certain bacteria hitch a ride with airborne particles;
humans use helicopters, airplanes, gliders, balloons, rockets, and
other mechanical contrivances, which operate differently among
themselves.  Although they all fly, they all do it differently....

....Craig




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 19:35:35 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:35:35 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
In-Reply-To: <9ed9ig+lqfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eef27+ggon@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19205

> 2.Can we because of this assume that everybody who uses name 
> Voldemort are close to Dumledore? (Of course many wizards close to 
> Dumbledore are too afraid to say it, like Professor McGonagall. 
> Though I think some of them would propably feel courageous enough 
to 
> say it when they're with Dumledore, but not elsewhere. And IIRC, 
> wizards on the Dark Side say Dark Lord, not Voldemort. This has 
been 
> discussed.)

1. Quirrel used it in the final chapter of PS: 'Think he can stop me, 
when I have Lord Voldemort on my side.'
2. I know, Snape never used the word Voldemort or he who must not be 
named.  In fact, no one on the dark side ever used 'He-who-must-not-
be-named' or 'you-know-who', except Karkaroff when he's pleading in 
the Pensieve and Pettigrew when he tried to talk his way out at the 
end of PoA.  (Pettigrew even used the word Voldemort, which is 
strange because he just flinched at the name two paragraphs above 
it.  Inconsistency on JKR's part?)




From pbarhug at earthlink.net  Tue May 22 19:35:12 2001
From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:35:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 9 POA Summary
References: <20010521.160324.-761229.2.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B0ABF70.288128E4@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19206



Sara Metz wrote:

> 2) Did Snape tell Dumbledore about Lupin because he holds a grudge
> against the Mauraders, or because he wants the DADA job?
>
>

    Actually, I think Snape's reputed desire for the DADA job is one of
those red herrings that we've been discussing here lately.  There's no
real evidence that Snape wants the DADA job; we've not heard him talk
about it, we've not heard any of the teachers (with perhaps the
exception of Lupin, whose view of Snape is somewhat colored by their
history) say that Snape is after the job.  I wonder why JKR is setting
us up with this idea; where might it go in the future?

drpam




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 19:49:42 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:49:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Fleur's Return
In-Reply-To: <8d.6d772e4.283bf7c7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010522194942.42906.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19207


> In a message dated 5/22/01 1:06:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> jenfold at yahoo.com writes:
> 
> On another Fleur matter: hands up those who think she'll get 
> together with Bill. Just imagine Fleur visiting the Weasley family 
> home and distracting all the men.

Bleh! My hand is most emphatically down. But don't mind me; I'm just a
crochety Anti-Romantic. I'm against all pairings in HP (now don't all
gasp at once!) not just Fleur/Bill. 

~Amber
(who calls Valentines Day, Single's Awareness Day...)


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the every approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From rick824 at webtv.net  Tue May 22 20:47:24 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:47:24 -0000
Subject: Sabbats and character birthdays (was Re: Ron's Birthday)
In-Reply-To: <9ebt95+m0p1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eej8s+3kr1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19208

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> Catlady wrote:
> I agree that Ron has a Taurus personality, but JKR said in a chat
> that his birthday is in March. I think she said March First, which
> is a Pisces, which he sure doesn't act like.
> 
> Craig wrote:
>  
> Is it possible that you are misremembering May 1st?
> 
> 
> Me:
> 
> JKR did say March 1st in a chat just around the time that the Comic 
> Relief books were released.  I'm not sure which one though.  
> 
> Trina  

.....seems weird that Ron never gets any presents at school on his birthday.
  Rick




From rick824 at webtv.net  Tue May 22 21:00:22 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:00:22 -0000
Subject: Errol
Message-ID: <9eek16+i7ve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19209

 Is anyone else concerned with the way the Weasleys treat Errol.  Seems kinda cruel to keep using him when he keeps ending up unconscious after every delivery.                     Rick




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue May 22 21:06:46 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:06:46 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP
In-Reply-To: <20010522003739.21685.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9ecb92+8q4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522140038.02f4b560@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19210

At 05:37 PM 5/21/01 -0700, Amber wrote:
>Gah, I know it's crazy and a very, very, VERY long stretch. I mean, the
>Phoenix *is* a positive symbol...

On the other hand, the Phoenix is an animal that "dies", and then
rises from its ashes... Isn't this in a sense what Voldy did?



                         -- Dave




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue May 22 21:10:38 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:10:38 -0000
Subject: Bert the Baby Dragon (filk)
Message-ID: <9eekke+ctvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19211

Bert the Baby Dragon (from PS/SS, Chap. 14)

(To the tune of Puff the Magic Dragon)

Dedicated to Eggplant

The Scene: Before Hagrid's cabin. Enter HARRY, RON  & HERMIONE)

HARRY, RON AND HERMIONE 
Bert the baby dragon hatched from an egg
That Hagrid won down at the pub while working on a keg
Hagrid held all dragons were cuddly and were good
And planned to raise his fiery friend in a cabin made of wood. Oh!

Bert the baby dragon was all tooth and claw
It's been decreed that raising them breaks every wizard law 
Bert the baby dragon got bigger each day  
And Draco Malfoy had a scheme that Hagrid he'd betray.

Together we helped feed him, he dined on blood and rats
Hagrid sang him lullabies as Bert waged armed combat
Hagrid loved his Ridgeback and grew so attached for he
Thought Norbert was the sweetest thing since Anne McCaffrey. Oh!

Belch the baby dragon, he burped him each night
His every smoky sneeze and snore gave Hagrid great delight
Belch the baby dragon, put him to bed
With his precious teddy bear so he can then tear off its head

A dragon lives in forests and not in little huts
Norbert had to leave Hogwarts though it made poor Hagrid nuts
One gray night it happened, we packed him in a crate
So to Romania Bert could go with Charlie Weasley's mates

Hagrid bent his head in sorrow, his eyes were full of tears
Which may have been because Norbert had bit him in his rear
We lugged him up the tower, but our efforts came to zilch
`Cause after waving Bert goodbye we ran smack-dab into Filch

FILCH (triumphantly)
Oh, puffed up and braggin', that's how I feel
These first-year brats are now to learn with me there's no appeal
Soon they will be draggin' in detention
Now how can anybody say that squibs never have fun?

(Exit all, to McGonagall's office)

	- CMC





From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Tue May 22 21:05:55 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:05:55 -0500
Subject: Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
Message-ID: <20010522.160556.-487285.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19212

Discussion Sketch: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination

Ancient Runes
	Little is known about this class, which Hermione takes in both her Third
and 	Fourth years at Hogwarts. There is no set textbook, only volumes
about the 	various types of runes studied. Probable runes studied include
Celtic and 	Norse runes, and possibly Egyptian hieroglyphics, as we know
the Ancient 	Egyptians had powerful wizards.

Arithmancy
	More is known on this class than Ancient Runes, though we have never
seen a 	class in action. Hermione has taken this both her Third and
Fourth years; she 	tells Harry that this is her favorite class. It is
taught by Professor Vector, one of 	which indicates that words may factor
in this class along with numbers. The 	homework includes a variety of
complicated number charts, and probably 	corresponds to Muggle algebra
and calculus.

Divination
	Divination is one of the Hogwarts classes we have been able to observe
in the 	novel. Taught by Professor Trelawney, this class covers it all:
palm-reading, 	tea-leaves, crystal balls and more.  Logical Hermione quit
this class in the 	middle of her third year, while Harry and Ron continue
on, making fun all the 	while. Trelawney rarely leaves the tower where
her class takes place, saying it
	disturbs her "inner eye." Most Gryffindors find her class silly, though
Lavender 	Brown and Parvati Patil look up to the professor. Trelawney has
made two true 	predictions, one of which was at the end of Harry's Third
year. We don't know 	what the first was. The textbook is "Unfogging the
Future" by Cassandra 	Vablatsky, and you can find many more books about
divination in Flourish
	and Blotts

Discussion Questions
	1) What Ancient Runes do you think Hermione has studied in the class?

	2) What math form do you think Arithmancy is most like?
	
	3) Could Professor Trelawney's first true prediction have been about
	Voldemort?
	
	4) Does Dumbledore keep Trelawney around in hopes she will have
	predictions about Voldemort?

Sara
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my **120%** Harry Potter Obsession Rating (Thank you,
fanfiction!)

________________________________________________________________
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 21:34:00 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:34:00 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
In-Reply-To: <20010522163754.39270.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eem09+lqbd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19213

Milz wrote:

>Granted, we haven't read about many Hufflepuffs, but Cedric Diggory 
>seemed to be a decent fellow.

Beyond decent, IMO.  How many team captains would ask to replay a 
match that they'd just won?  And then, of course, he tops that by 
refusing to take the Triwizard Cup.

He's also a really good student, according to Hermione's sources 
(GF).  You don't have to be lacking in other qualities in order to 
fit into Hufflepuff.

I agree with you?-poor H. House has an undeservedly low reputation 
among readers.

Barbara asked:

> What is the proportion of Muggle-born students in each
>house?  Because of the fact that Hufflepuffs aren't
>afraid of hard work, would Hufflepuff wind up with the
>most Muggle-borns? 

Is it harder to keep up if you are Muggle-born?

There must be some culture shock that makes it harder at the start?-
you absorb so much just from being in a wizarding household--but as 
Harry experiences it, it all evens out pretty fast (there's something 
about this in PS/SS after classes have gotten started).  I know, one 
could argue that he only catches up so easily because he's unusually 
talented (despite the handicap of utter unfamiliarity with the 
wizarding world), but it doesn't strike me that that's what's going 
on.  As Hagrid says, "they haven't invented a spell our Hermione 
can't do," while Neville . . . what is it Ron says?  "can hardly 
stand a cauldron right way up"?  It doesn't seem as though magical 
talent correlates with degrees of purebloodedness.

Amy Z





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 21:46:54 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:46:54 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
In-Reply-To: <9eef27+ggon@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eemoe+94b3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19214

MMM wrote:

> (Pettigrew even used the word Voldemort, which is 
> strange because he just flinched at the name two paragraphs above 
> it.  Inconsistency on JKR's part?)

Good catch!  I think it's a good piece of characterization on JKR's 
part, not an inconsistency.  Sirius is scathing towards Peter when he 
flinches; a few moments later, Peter says the name as if to prove 
that he isn't afraid, Voldemort is not his master, and he's just like 
Sirius and Remus.

You can't read too much into any one use of any name (e.g. I'm not 
going to conclude that Snape is really a DE because the one time he 
mentions Voldemort he calls him the Dark Lord), but there do seem to 
be trends.

Amy Z






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 22:02:09 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:02:09 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Fleur/Bill_=96_Birthday_presents_=96_Trelawney?=
Message-ID: <9eenl1+66h3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19215

Amber wrote:

> Bleh! My hand is most emphatically down. But don't mind me; I'm 
just a
> crochety Anti-Romantic. I'm against all pairings in HP (now don't 
all
> gasp at once!) not just Fleur/Bill. 

Add this crochety Romantic to the anti-F/B crowd.  I just don't like 
the thought that because she gives him the eye they're going to date, 
although I will admit that the comical possibilities in a Fleur visit 
to the Burrow are rich.

While we're on the subject of Fleur, Harry does not seem to be 
particularly swayed by her charms, even before she starts referring 
to him as "zis little boy" (which would be something of a turnoff).  
When she comes over for the bouillabaisse he seems unmoved.

Rick wrote:

>.....seems weird that Ron never gets any presents at school on his 
>birthday.
 
This would seem to be one of those things Jo just doesn't have time 
for.  A line at Christmas is easy, fitting in two more birthdays is 
hard.

Sara wrote:

>We don't know 	what the first was. The textbook is "Unfogging the
>Future" by Cassandra 	Vablatsky, 

Is the name another clue?  Cassandra was doomed to prophesy correctly 
but never be believed.  Is Trelawney a Cassandra, more accurate than 
the Trio and most others tend to think?  (My personal opinion:  Nah, 
she's an old fraud who's right about once in 300 tries.)

Amy Z





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 22:13:35 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:13:35 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Red Flags, Fleur's Return
Message-ID: <F246BnccYTjr8cU6xfP00005444@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19216

Jen wrote:

>  I can't see Fleur teaching especially DADA unless she was supervised
>by another more experinced teacher. Dumbledore may have felt
>relatively free to mess about by using Lockhart as a teacher in CoS,
>but now that he's aware that Voldemort is really back he needs to
>employ a very good DADA teacher to teach the students how to protect
>themselves.
>

I'd love Fleur to become a "prentice teacher" (thinking of OSC's Alvin Maker 
series), though.  Doesn't have to be DADA... any subject will do. In the 
Muggle world, I think it's a great idea for student teaching to last a year 
or even longer... working side by side with a veteran worth his/her salt.  I 
think the magical world would be no different.

Let's not write Fleur off too quickly.  Though she may have seemed like a 
ditz in GoF, there is a reason why the Goblet selected her.  We don't know 
her strengths (other than having men fall all over her, and that's just 
intrinsic--she can't help her veela blood).  Either she has more going for 
her than we realize... or not much can be said about the Beauxbatons student 
body.

As for Bill/Fleur, why not?  It'd be fun while it lasted... but I can't see 
it lasting very long.  She seems a bit too high-strung for Bill Weasley.  
;-)

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 22:30:41 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:30:41 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: defense of Sirius and James
Message-ID: <F16lZz02H67yRLVbNDN00010582@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19217

Welcome, Susan!  We are glad to have you...

>I confess to feeling a bit baffled by a couple of recent posts describing 
>Sirius as "commitmentphobic".  Not only is there nothing in the text to 
>support this (about the only time we hear of  him pre Azkaban he is trying 
>to assume the sole care of an orphaned 15 month old child)
>

I agree.  Of the adult characters (teachers included) Sirius and Hagrid are 
my favorites for this precise reason.  Sirius won me over not because he was 
so dead sexy, but because the end of PoA and his actions throughout GoF 
showed how much he loved a kid who desperately needed it.

(Of course, I may be biased.  My opinions on the HP supporting cast have 
always been directly proportional to their treatment of my favorite 
character.  If they treat Harry well and/or he likes them, they're A-OK with 
me.  If they do not, and he could do very well without them, I tend not to 
be highly interested in them.  Which is why I prefer Sirius discussion to 
Snape.  What can I say?  I'm not all that subtle or sly of a creature, I 
guess.  :-D)

Sirius as commitment-phobe *or* immature is definitely not canon.  As for 
the "dead sexy" thing, according to a HP4GU who has met her, JKR herself 
confirmed this.  Wherever Alix is, kudos to her... of *all* the things you 
could ask JKR... excellent!  :-D (Hmm... runs off to start a thread at 
OT-Chatter.)

>It completely contrasts with my view of him and James, in that I tend to 
>think that not being in a lifetime relationship at 22 is pretty normal, and 
>James and Lily are definitely on the young side to have settled down, 
>especially since >normal wizard lifetimes exceed Muggle ones by about 50% 
>apparently.
>

Which begs the question of whether the J and L romance is typical or 
atypical in the wizarding world.  If typical, then all those who say that we 
shippers are nuts ("who marries the people they grow up with?") ought to 
think twice.  If atypical, then one wonders *why* they were in such a rush 
to get married/have children... I could suggest several reasons why, but the 
prevailing winds on list would blow me over.

Either way, it's a win-win situation for my view of canon.

Had >Voldemort not intervened I  could have imagined James at age 28 or 
 >thereabouts coming home from a long day at wherever he was earning all 
those >Galleons, tripping over Harry and his bratty siblings, having a huge 
row >with Lily in which she works off her frustrations at the sidetracking 
of her >magical career and he works off all his frustrations at his missed 
 >opportunities to play the field, culminating with his final insult "You 
get >more like your sister Petunia every day", a slammed door, and a trip 
out to >meet Sirius in the pub, where he makes bitter remarks about women 
into his
>pint and flirts outrageously with the half Veela barmaid just to prove he 
> >isn't past it....

LOL!  Injecting a dose of reality into the Potterverse, are we?  I love 
it... after all, the category of fantasy JKR is writing seems to be magical 
realism, right?

Thanks for your post!

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 22:44:34 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:44:34 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP
Message-ID: <F269ZDgC81TbdkSmLAz0000533c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19218

Amber wrote:
> >Gah, I know it's crazy and a very, very, VERY long stretch. I mean, the> 
> >Phoenix *is* a positive symbol...

Dave wrote:
>On the other hand, the Phoenix is an animal that "dies", and then
>rises from its ashes... Isn't this in a sense what Voldy did?
>

Is the folkloric connotation of the phoenix generally positive or negative?

JKR's *Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them* has this to say:

"The phoenix is a gentle creature that has never been known to kill and eats 
only herbs."

"Phoenix song is magical; it is reputed to increase the courage of the pure 
of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure."

Also of note--1) it is found in Egypt, India and China and 2) its tears heal 
(of course, we know this from CoS, right?).

Unless JKR is going for irony, it seems that the Order of the Phoenix will 
incorporate some of the properties of that creature.  She's often witty, but 
I'm not sure that she's a cynic.  JMHO.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From zenonah at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 22:50:49 2001
From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:50:49 -0000
Subject: Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
In-Reply-To: <20010522.160556.-487285.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9eeqg9+bbu4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19219

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sara Metz 
<hermionegranger.gryffindor at j...> wrote:

> Celtic and 	Norse runes, and possibly Egyptian hieroglyphics, as 
we know
> the Ancient 	Egyptians had powerful wizards.


Norse and Celtic runes aren't that different (depends of course at 
what time you compare them) but I don't think Egyptians get into this 
class because hieroglyphs are so faraway from runes. They are based 
on the same thought, yes, but I just don't think so. Or then there 
must be chinese (sorry, my dictionary just failed me) letters too. 
But then I would suspect the whole class would be named differently. 
When I read this from the book, I thought immediately how 
Scandinavians (I live in Finland) use to predict future with runes, 
there was very much magic in them. So I just wondered what Hermione 
thinks about that? Does she think it's just history?

> Fourth years; she 	tells Harry that this is her favorite class. 
It is
> taught by Professor Vector, one of 	which indicates that words 
may factor
> in this class along with numbers. The 	homework includes a 

I thought it's basicly numerology, in Kabbala it's important. In 
ancient Greece Aristotle practised it (IIRC. We're having 
nightguests, so I can't go to livingroom and search my bookshelf). In 
astrology and tarot numbers and their symbolic meanings play big 
part. As a Virgo myself, just like Hermione, numbers and symbols have 
always been very interesting.
> 
> year. We don't know 	what the first was. The textbook 
is "Unfogging the
> Future" by Cassandra 	Vablatsky, 

Nice one, JKR, again! Madame Blavatsky was the founder of the 
Teosophist Society in New York at the end of the 19th century. 
Claimed she had a connection to the akashic-world-memory and 
spiritual beings told him the truth about how humans came into this 
world. Spent many years in Tibet and wrote atleast a book called "The 
Veil of Isis".

Jenny




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue May 22 22:56:17 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:56:17 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More about Fleur
Message-ID: <F192dRr8N0QB2qIuSRh000064a8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19220

Amy wrote:

>While we're on the subject of Fleur, Harry does not seem to be
>particularly swayed by her charms, even before she starts referring
>to him as "zis little boy" (which would be something of a turnoff).
>When she comes over for the bouillabaisse he seems unmoved.
>

Good observation!  Well, the veela seems to be quasi-Dark creatures... and 
DADA seems to be Harry's best subject, so there you have it.  Although I 
concede that he *was* about to leap from the stands at the Quidditch World 
Cup... perhaps the fact that Fleur is only part veela has something to do 
with it.

And why are so many against Bill/Fleur?  We're not saying they must live 
happily ever after... we just want that Burrow visit scene.  ;-)

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 23:00:19 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:00:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
In-Reply-To: <9eem09+lqbd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010522230019.7816.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19221

  > 
> Is it harder to keep up if you are Muggle-born?

[snip]  

It doesn't seem as
> though magical 
> talent correlates with degrees of purebloodedness.
> 
> Amy Z
> 

What I meant about Muggle-borns in Hufflepuff is that
they wouldn't be as accustomed to using magic as a
crutch as students who had some magical upbringing.
 


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Tue May 22 23:02:18 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:02:18 -0000
Subject: Chapter 8 and 9
In-Reply-To: <20010522175700.21311.qmail@web3003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eer5q+m4ss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19222

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Nethilia De Lobo <nethilia at y...> wrote:
> Chapter 8: 
> 
> > Discussion Questions:
> > 1) Is Crookshanks chewing a dead spider in front of
> > Ron a message telling
> > him he's on Ron's side?
> 
> Probably. Crookies is a smart kitty. Then again, he
> could just be trying to traumatize Ron ^_~

Late thought:

A _large_ dead spider.  Although I suspect it's just put there
by JKR to freak Ron out with his acranacrophobia (hi, joywitch :-)
since he doesn't like spiders at _all_, even dead, so that he
and Hermione can do their disagreeing-about-Crookshanks bit again,
perhaps it just could be an early clue that Crookshanks has been
exploring in the Forbidden Forest?

(Is that a big deal, anyway, for students' animals - or not?)

I guess that although at this point Crookshanks has it in for
Scabbers, he isn't in league with Sirius Black.

I'm not sure that spiders are palatable, I don't remember our
family cat being very interested in them...

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 23:06:11 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur/Bill_?_Birthday_presents_?_Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <9eenl1+66h3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010522230611.43640.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19223

 > 
> While we're on the subject of Fleur, Harry does not
> seem to be 
> particularly swayed by her charms, even before she
> starts referring 
> to him as "zis little boy" (which would be something
> of a turnoff).  
> When she comes over for the bouillabaisse he seems
> unmoved. > 
 
However, when confronted with a large number of
full-blooded veelas at the Quidditch World Cup, Harry
was about to go over the side of the boat
(metaphorically speaking).  But I think that his
resistance to one part-veela shows again that he is
able to keep his head about him when there is
something trying to cloud his mind (whereas Ron can't
handle the Imperious Curse, either). He has such a
strong sense of self that it took an army of veelas to
overwhelm him.


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From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 22 23:12:11 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:12:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
In-Reply-To: <9eeqg9+bbu4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010522231211.45368.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19224

> Nice one, JKR, again! Madame Blavatsky was the
> founder of the Teosophist Society in New York at the
end of the 19th century. Claimed she had a connection
to the akashic-world-memory and spiritual beings told
him the truth about how humans came into this world.
Spent many years in Tibet and wrote atleast a book
called "The Veil of Isis".
> 
> Jenny
> 

Actually, it's called the Theosophist Society and it
started here in Philadelphia.  In fact, there's a cafe
here called the White Dog Cafe (great food!) which was
given that name because Madame Blavatsky had some
revelation concerning a white dog and the cafe is
located in the house where she lived at the time. 
There is now a gift shop next door run by the cafe
people and called The Black Cat.  I'm willing to bet
the proprietors might be Harry Potter fans, but I
haven't had the courage to ask.


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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue May 22 23:13:04 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:13:04 -0000
Subject: Dark creatures
Message-ID: <9eerq0+goin@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19225

	We talk alot about Dark Creatures on this list...but is this a 
phrase JKR has actually used? I can't remember reading it in the 
books...can somebody give me a citation? Or is this fanon?

Thanks
Pippin





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Tue May 22 23:38:28 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:38:28 -0000
Subject: Fidelius Charm
In-Reply-To: <3B09BE1C.8072B96C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9eet9k+bf27@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19226

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> For no reason I can think of, I thought the Fidelius Charm was a charm
> for hiding *people*. Dumbledore could have hidden Flamel, but not an
> object. Is this right?

Well, possibly JKR hadn't devised the Fidelius Charm when she was
writing PS - although I get told that she plotted out all seven books
first, and Fidelius is a big plot point.  Anyway, I think we'll agree
that that's an explanation which we can't use ;-)

Dumbledore - no, it's not - Flitwick says it's for hiding a secret,
information, "inside a single living soul" - literally inside the
soul, I suppose. Its effect is to make it impossible for anyone else
to possess the information, as long as the Secret-Keeper doesn't tell. 
One might suppose that it relies on the Secret-Keeper's resistance to
direct magic attack - perhaps requires their conscious effort to
keep the secret - Voldemort theoretically could have come after
Black, as Secret-Keeper, and got it out of him by force.  Or just
killed _him_ - does that break the spell, too?  Or not?

So was Sirius setting Peter up to die by making Peter the
Secret-Keeper - well, there was a war on, everyone had to play
a part according to their talents?  Could be not-so-heroic?

Or perhaps _this_ spell, Peter can do _better_ than Sirius.
Animagus is Transfiguration, but this is a Charm.  Maybe Peter
did less Transfiguration practice and more homework at school?

If the Fidelius Charm is effective on the Philosopher's Stone,
they could have hidden it _in Voldemort's pocket_ and he'd never
find it.  (I have days like that...)

Although I didn't study Latin, "Fidelius" suggests faithfulness,
personal loyalty, so maybe it can't be used to hide just _any_
secret, but personal information - just as our governments are
sometimes concerned to regulate the use and misuse of personal data
but not, usually, of data about the weather.  You can hide people;
conceivably you can hide relationships; but you can't hide possessions -
even a possession so personally important to Flamel as the Stone.
And then the Stone is a _magical_ object, too.

This isn't explicit, anywhere I've seen, but it _feels_ right.
But we'll have to see whether JKR uses the Fidelius Charm again,
and how.  It didn't have a good result the first time, and it's
difficult, which is a writer's hint that "you shouldn't expect to
see this again" (cf. Time-Turner).

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 23 00:04:35 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:04:35 -0000
Subject: The real Sirius
In-Reply-To: <10c.34d8dc.283b2d44@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9eeuqj+qvdb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19227

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
>
> According to Hagrid in PoA, Sirius wanted to take 
> care of Harry after James and Lily were killed, and he argued
> against sending Harry to the Dursleys.  As far as Sirius knew,
> the Dursleys were perfectly decent people who would take good
> care of their nephew, but he was still quite adamant about taking
> Harry.  I think the fact that he was willing to take care of his
> young godson even though Harry had other family shows that 
> he was rather mature at that time.  Loyal, too.

Well, we're given the information when we are in order to make
Sirius look _worse_, at that point.  And Sirius is probably
pretty upset.

However, I think it's significant that Sirius _is_ Harry's godfather -
that James and Lily invited him to stand as his moral guardian.
It's a Christian thing, actually (e.g. a certain movie), but
one that isn't done much in Scotland to my knowledge (at least
I don't _think_ I have godparents) - the godparent promises at
the child's baptism to help to bring the child up in good religion,
I think.  In practice it isn't necessarily a serious or religious
relationship, but a para-family one: an extra uncle or aunt, perhaps.
There may well be other godparents - Dumbledore himself might have
been...?

Since all I really know about this is from BBC Radio's _The Archers_
maybe Jane Austen, and an amusing book _Bad Form_ by Simon Brett
(e-mail me to see the pre-godfathering contract - I suppose I
oughtn't, it's copyright but it's only a _little_ copyright) -
I may be wrong, but AFAIK a non-churchgoing godparent who only
turns up in church for the christening ceremony is still supposed
to be (1) powerful or (2) rich, see 1, or (3) responsible.

I presume it's been noticed and discussed that Hogwarts celebrates
Christmas and Hallowe'en, but has a multi-ethnic intake and
no one up to POA is actually seen practising religion - unless the
dreadlocks worn by one boy boarding the train in PS are meaningful - ?
If our friend who was looking for HP books on disc found some, perhaps
s/he could search for the word "pray" anywhere, and whether details
are given.

In the Dursleys fanfic I started writing (still needs, e.g., a plot),
I send them to church, but not very often.  They're that sort of
people, I think.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 23 00:20:27 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:20:27 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9e7vrr+usl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eevob+agee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19228

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
>  re the chess.  Seeing as this has come up, there is another line 
> I noticed which doesn't make sense:
> 
> Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me - "
> 
> and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen pounced."
> 
> I know this is probably just figure of speech, but it has always 
> annoyed me - Ron is a Knight, and they don't move forward one step at 
> a time - they move 3 forward, 1 across.  So another flint, or 
> imprecise language?  Or am I just being too nitpicky?

One step forward and two sideways?  Or one big step which happens
to be 2 squares forwards and 1 sideways?  (Not touching intervening
squares, of course.)  Or the queen jumped the gun, hit Ron as soon
as it was clear what move he was making?

I don't know chess contest rules, never learned to play at all well,
so I don't know whether the move is official as soon as Ron leaves
his home square.

As to the arrangement of pieces, at the start of the Christmas holidays JKR unfortunately says wizard chess is "exactly like
Muggle chess except that the figures were alive."

As to rooks, Hogwarts _is_ a castle and it's got owls instead.

Hang on.  What does a castle that's alive look like?  So perhaps
wizard chess sets include large black or white birds which are
called castles, whereas Muggles use small castles which are
called rooks?

We may have to wait for the Hogwarts collectors' chess set to
resolve that one.  I presume it's a matter of time...imagine
32 smaller Furbys with one AAA penlight battery each...no, more
likely they just talk to you with each move (cheer, boo, say ouch),
but actually it's electronics in the board making the voice...

Or it's on PC, perhaps.  There's been at least one animated character
chess game, but I forget the name.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 23 00:23:33 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:23:33 -0000
Subject: Sneakoscope (was Red Herrings)
In-Reply-To: <9ee731+28to@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eevu5+f8dm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19229

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer Piersol" <jenP_97 at y...> wrote:
> I think that the 
> Sneakoscope Ron bought in the gift shop was meant to work, but meant 
> to be for kids.  Therefore, it was built to be roughly handled 
> (stuffed in socks?), and probably doesn't have as many features as a 
> real one.  Come to think of it, what kind of features *does* a real 
> Sneakoscope have?  More sensitive?  Some kind of pointing device...

A Muggle named Philip Pullman has a very fine Golden Compass :-)
I think that would be the top-of-the-range model...

Happy birthday!

Robert Carnegie





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 23 00:25:19 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:25:19 -0000
Subject: ChronoHarry and ChronoHermione [was Lupin's observations]
In-Reply-To: <9eecmk+mv19@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ef01f+76l0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19230

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
>  	Also in regard to the Marauder's Map, you know we are talking 
> about a group of four teenage boys...not the best spellers as a 
> rule...maybe they meant Marauders' and got it wrong ;)

Their spell(ing)s are better than some of ours, from what I've seen ;-)

Robert Carnegie





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed May 23 00:31:42 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:31:42 -0000
Subject: Chapter 8 POA Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010521.160324.-761229.1.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ef0de+ov9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19231

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sara Metz 
<hermionegranger.gryffindor at j...> wrote:
> Chapter Eight - Flight of the Fat Lady

> 1) Is Crookshanks chewing a dead spider in front of Ron a message 
telling
> him he's on Ron's side?

That's a good way to look at it.  Living with 4 cats as I do, I 
interpreted this as just one of those obnoxious things cats do when 
they know perfectly well their behavior is getting up your nose.  I 
figured this was simply Crookshanks' way of telling Ron, "I'm not 
afraid of any spider!!"
> 
> 2) Was Trelawney's prediction about Lavender's rabbit in any way
> truthful, or was it all a big coincidence?

I think she was lucky to get anywhere near a true prediction.
 
> 3) Lupin says the name Voldemort out loud. What does this say about 
him?
>
I think Remus is one of those who is not intimidated by Voldemort, 
perhaps from past experience in fighting V the first time around.  
Sirius and Dumbledore also don't seem to have any qualms about 
tossing V's name around, so it's probably not a stretch to think they 
were all  closely allied in the past.

> 4) Was Harry foolish in telling Lupin about Snape?
> 

No, I think Harry felt a connection with Remus, both as a teacher and 
as someone he thinks he can trust.  Since Harry feels that Snape has 
it in for him, and since he also believes the rumors about Snape's 
desire for the DADA position, it strikes me as natural that he would 
want to warn Remus about Snape.  
> 
> 6) Why did Sirius slash the painting - didn't he know that would 
give him
> away?

There have been a number of postings in the past regarding this 
behavior and how it relates to post traumatic stress disorder.  I 
won't repeat all of that, but this extreme reaction is understandable 
to me since Sirius thought he was THAT CLOSE (holds thumb almost 
against finger) to getting to Peter.  Add to that 12 years of mental 
torture, 12 years of bad diet, 12 years of lack of exercise, 12 years 
of cold, loveless existence, and you will get one cranky individual.


Marianne




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed May 23 00:32:07 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:32:07 -0000
Subject: Chapter 8 POA Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010521.160324.-761229.1.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ef0e7+q7d5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19232

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sara Metz 
<hermionegranger.gryffindor at j...> wrote:
> Chapter Eight - Flight of the Fat Lady

> 1) Is Crookshanks chewing a dead spider in front of Ron a message 
telling
> him he's on Ron's side?

That's a good way to look at it.  Living with 4 cats as I do, I 
interpreted this as just one of those obnoxious things cats do when 
they know perfectly well their behavior is getting up your nose.  I 
figured this was simply Crookshanks' way of telling Ron, "I'm not 
afraid of any spider!!"
> 
> 2) Was Trelawney's prediction about Lavender's rabbit in any way
> truthful, or was it all a big coincidence?

I think she was lucky to get anywhere near a true prediction.
 
> 3) Lupin says the name Voldemort out loud. What does this say about 
him?
>
I think Remus is one of those who is not intimidated by Voldemort, 
perhaps from past experience in fighting V the first time around.  
Sirius and Dumbledore also don't seem to have any qualms about 
tossing V's name around, so it's probably not a stretch to think they 
were all  closely allied in the past.

> 4) Was Harry foolish in telling Lupin about Snape?
> 

No, I think Harry felt a connection with Remus, both as a teacher and 
as someone he thinks he can trust.  Since Harry feels that Snape has 
it in for him, and since he also believes the rumors about Snape's 
desire for the DADA position, it strikes me as natural that he would 
want to warn Remus about Snape.  
> 
> 6) Why did Sirius slash the painting - didn't he know that would 
give him
> away?

There have been a number of postings in the past regarding this 
behavior and how it relates to post traumatic stress disorder.  I 
won't repeat all of that, but this extreme reaction is understandable 
to me since Sirius thought he was THAT CLOSE (holds thumb almost 
against finger) to getting to Peter.  Add to that 12 years of mental 
torture, 12 years of bad diet, 12 years of lack of exercise, 12 years 
of cold, loveless existence, and you will get one cranky individual.


Marianne




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed May 23 00:48:24 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:48:24 -0000
Subject: Digest  895/Sirius/Snape
In-Reply-To: <9ecgin+mmaq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ef1co+cq7q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19233

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Danette Schardt-Cordova > Also Sirius 
was 
> the one that set Snape up to get hurt
> > by Lupin.  That may be a factor as well in the
> > Snape-Sirius rivalry.

> It's just my thought that Sirius set up Snape because of the *trio 
> love factor*.  Could also be why Snape wanted to get rid of 
Sirius.  
> One must get rid of the competition.  Just a thought (sort of weak, 
I 
> know).
> 
> Koinonia

I don't think it's weak at all.  I think that there is more to the 
original grudge between Sirius and Snape than what we have heard 
about so far.  And a contested love interest could certainly be a 
motivating factor.  I can certainly see that, even after all these 
years, Snape still feels hatred towards someone who may have 
indirectly caused his death.  But, I've never seen why Sirius would 
have the same level of loathing towards Snape.  You'd think that 
Sirius (who I am terribly fond of) would, by this time in his life, 
have relegated the trick to send Snape through the tunnel to the 
Shrieking Shack as old history.  

Yet his loathing of Snape still seems very...current, as if they've 
been feuding constantly as adults, even though they haven't seen each 
other in over a decade.  This makes me think that there was some 
other motivating factor in Sirius' action (and it may very well be a 
stupid motivating factor) that we don't yet know about.  I'm sure 
that JKR has more in store for us in the continuing saga of Severus 
and Sirius.

Marianne, who just loves those "S" guys




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 23 00:51:29 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:51:29 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Dobby and Apparition
In-Reply-To: <9eef17+7vlf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ef1ih+ha6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19234

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> > It seems to me that Dobby just Disapparated.  And he did it
> > before, when he visited Harry in the hospital wing.  Now, I haven't
> > read Hogwarts, A History, but I do know that you aren't supposed to
> > be able to Apparate or Disapparate inside Hogwarts.  Is this a red
> > flag?  Just how powerful are house elves, anyway?  I know someone
> > in one of the books (I'm not sure which, at the moment) said that
> > house elves have a powerful magic of their own, but that they're
> > not allowed to use it without their master's permission.
> 
> This has come up before, and I believe the consensus fell along the
> lines that (1) the house elves weren't invoking an "Apparate" or
> "Disapparate" spell, but rather were doing something that is part
> of their "nature" and that (2) this nature does include a different
> sort of magic than what the wizards use.  I believe the "real world"
> analogy was drawn with different modes of flight...

Yes - but Hogwarts' wards are surely intended to prevent _any_ magical
intrusion, surely including trolls, phoenixes, and house elves.
(Suppose Voldemort had given Sirius Black a house elf?)

"You can't just Apparate in here," Hermione says - perhaps meaning
"into here."  Does Dobby come from outside, or is he just Apparating
from one place in the school to another, after being smuggled in by
Draco or Lucius, probably Draco, right after the bit at the station?

As to how powerful they are otherwise, Dobby _is_ powerful enough in
CS to throw an adult wizard down the stairs.

Why are house elves so powerful, if they are (they seem to be regarded
as mere labour-saving devices, albeit very good ones), and why aren't
we working for them instead of the other way around?  Perhaps house
elves' magic powers are naturally strongest when they're loyal, for
biological reasons - so that when they mate, they're strongest, to
look after their children - just as humans' blood pressure goes higher
for the first eighteen years of parenthood :-)  But house elves also
bond emotionally/instinctively with humans (or perhaps with their
houses), and that triggers the biological reflex that boosts their
powers.

But that doesn't account for the gift of clothing setting them free.
Okay, so they mate, then as soon as they get dressed again, they lose
interest - I believe some humans have that gene too -

I wonder whether you can get _Debbie Does Dobby_ on Voldemort
Home System videotape...purely for academic interest, of course.

Hey, it's 0143 in the morning here, but I found out at the weekend
that I can still do this all night.  (That isn't a line from the
video, btw.)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 23 01:00:36 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 01:00:36 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort; Snape and Stone
In-Reply-To: <9eef27+ggon@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ef23k+9ica@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19235

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:

> 1. Quirrel used it in the final chapter of PS: 'Think he can stop me, 
> when I have Lord Voldemort on my side.'

FWIW, I have "tried to frighten me, when" et cetera.  Our VFAQ
offers but doesn't actually provide a link to an essay on
differences between copies...?

I bring it up because I'm still wondering what Snape is really
up to in PS.  I wonder if he wants the Stone for himself - just
long enough to upgrade his Potions cauldron to gold, perhaps -
and is hoping that with Quirrell as decoy, he can get in ahead -
whereas Quirrell is also using Snape as decoy.

Do Alchemy and making the Elixir of Life fall under Potions?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 02:02:49 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 02:02:49 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
In-Reply-To: <20010522230019.7816.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ef5o9+7ir8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19236

> > Is it harder to keep up if you are Muggle-born?
> 
> [snip]  
> 
> It doesn't seem as
> > though magical 
> > talent correlates with degrees of purebloodedness.
> > 
> > Amy Z
> > 

Barbara wrote:

> What I meant about Muggle-borns in Hufflepuff is that
> they wouldn't be as accustomed to using magic as a
> crutch as students who had some magical upbringing.

Oh, now I follow you.  You mean, they work harder because they aren't 
accustomed to magical shortcuts that might lessen that load?  Good 
thought.

Amy Z




From magistra at tampabay.rr.com  Wed May 23 02:22:40 2001
From: magistra at tampabay.rr.com (magistra at tampabay.rr.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 02:22:40 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Vablatsky,_was_Re:_Fleur/Bill_=96_Birthday_presents_=96_Trelawney?=
In-Reply-To: <9eenl1+66h3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ef6tg+9bmi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19237

Sara:
> > We don't know what the first was. The textbook is "Unfogging 
> > the Future" by Cassandra Vablatsky, 

Amy Z:
> Is the name another clue?  Cassandra was doomed to prophesy 
> correctly but never be believed.  Is Trelawney a Cassandra, 
> more accurate than the Trio and most others tend to think?  
> (My personal opinion:  Nah, she's an old fraud who's right 
> about once in 300 tries.)

Also, look at the "Vablatsky", which is an obvious tweak on Victorian 
occultist Madame Helena Blavatsky.  You can read more here:

http://landow.stg.brown.edu/victorian/religion/blavatsky.html

- Darice




From dianne at surfshop.net.ph  Wed May 23 02:34:03 2001
From: dianne at surfshop.net.ph (Dianne Singson)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:34:03 +0800
Subject: Lupin's return
Message-ID: <3B0B219B.BD3AFAA1@surfshop.net.ph>

No: HPFGUIDX 19238

>At the end of PoA, Sirius says to
Harry, "We'll see each other again," and he does return in GoF.  Before
Lupin
leaves in PoA, he also says to Harry,"I feel sure we'll meet again
sometime,"
and we've heard that he's making an appearance in OoTP.  It seems that
when
people specifically say that they're coming back, they actually end up
coming
back in a later book.  So I've answered that part of the question
anyway, but
as for what we can expect from her, I for one am just going to have to
wait
for OoTP.
Devika :)<

I've been lurking for quite some time, and I know that I'm a bit young
for this group as I'm only 16 (although I enjoy the discussions a lot)
but I was just wondering, if Lupin comes back in Book 5, how will Harry
& co. address him? "Professor Lupin" doesn't seem right; are they going
to call him Remus, like Harry addresses Sirius? That sounds a bit
awkward. Mr. Lupin? Moony? Sorry if I'm rambling.

--Dianne (",)




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May 23 02:39:30 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 02:39:30 -0000
Subject: Make Your Own Spell! (Contest #3)
Message-ID: <9ef7t2+vqgc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19239

This is your last chance to participate in the Make Your Own Spell 
Contest.  Submissions should be in by midnight tonight (EST).  
(Although if you get it in by noon tomorrow I will include it, to be 
honest I wont get to it until then.)  Contest details can be found in 
the HP4GU Folder in the Files section, but the short version is: 

Make up a spell that you need in your life and email it to me at 
HP4GU at aol.com

--Joywitch




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Wed May 23 02:46:29 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:46:29 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
Message-ID: <e5.6ac8956.283c7e85@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19240

Hello, I'm Jami, just joined today, happy to be here. I'm 33, live outside of 
Washington, D.C. and my son and I are both obsessed with Harry Potter. 
Thought I'd chime in on this one ... 

In a message dated 5/22/2001 7:38:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com writes:

<< 3) Could Professor Trelawney's first true prediction have been about
    Voldemort?
    
    4) Does Dumbledore keep Trelawney around in hopes she will have
    predictions about Voldemort?
  >>

I believe the answers to both of these are yes ... one of the questions I 
often find myself pondering is why Voldemort had it in for James and Harry, 
but not Lily Potter, and an answer I come up with is that perhaps Trelawney 
predicted that his ultimate downfall would be at the hands of the last of the 
Potter bloodline ... or maybe Harry is the last descendant of Gryffindor, and 
he is pre-ordained to kill the last descendant of Slytherin? 

In further reference to CoS storylines, does Hagrid know that he was set up 
by Tom Riddle and was not, in fact, responsible for Myrtle's death, and does 
he know that Tom Riddle grew up to be Lord Voldemort?

Great to be here!

Jami 



From tmayor at mediaone.net  Wed May 23 03:03:58 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 03:03:58 -0000
Subject: Lupin's return
In-Reply-To: <3B0B219B.BD3AFAA1@surfshop.net.ph>
Message-ID: <9ef9au+q63c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19241

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dianne Singson <dianne at s...> wrote:
I was just wondering, if Lupin comes back in Book 5, how will Harry
> & co. address him? 

Can't resist applauding this question, as it ties to together a whole 
bunch of threads that have been rampant of late, including the "what 
people call one another" thread and the "when we find out Lupin's 
first name and why" thread and the "why people on this list refer to 
Sirius as Sirius but Lupin as Lupin" thread and the "we love Lupin 
but he's got some emotional issues to work through" thread.

Unfortunately, having pointed this out, I have no answer to suggest. 
I think there would be much awkwardness and Harry & Co. would wind up 
calling him nothing specific at all or Professor, even though it's no 
longer appropriate, just because there *is* this reserve that 
precludes a first-name basis with him. 

~Rosmerta





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May 23 03:42:23 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:42:23 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9eevob+agee@eGroups.com>
References: <9e7vrr+usl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522201749.00de2710@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19242

At 12:20 AM 5/23/01 +0000, rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:
>I don't know chess contest rules, never learned to play at all well,
>so I don't know whether the move is official as soon as Ron leaves
>his home square.

The official rule is that as soon as you touch a piece, you must move it,
and when you let it go, that's the move and cannot be taken back.  The
only known instance of a tournament player violating this rule and getting
away with it is Garry Kasparov (Slytherin in a past or future life?), in a
match against Judith Polgar (Seeker for the Hungarian Quidditch team in a
past or future life?) -- The referee (Snape in a past or future life?) ruled in
Kasparov's favor, even though most people agree he took back the
move after letting go of the piece.

>As to the arrangement of pieces, at the start of the Christmas holidays 
>JKR unfortunately says wizard chess is "exactly like
>Muggle chess except that the figures were alive."

But that's normal Wizard chess, which McGonnegal's chess seems to
deviate from, i.e. the pices are faceless; and perhaps some form
of "Fairy Chess" rules was adopted to make it all the harder.  Maybe
McGonnegal saw that exhibit at the Pompidou Center in Paris in
the mid-80's that included a life-size chess game with rules no one
could figure out.

>Or it's on PC, perhaps.  There's been at least one animated character
>chess game, but I forget the name.

_Battle Chess_, which I never liked.  Hopefully the Hogwarts version
will be less violent.



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May 23 03:44:38 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:44:38 -0700
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[HPforGrownups]_Fleur/Bill_=96_Birthday_?=  presents =?iso-8859-1?Q?_=96_Trelawney?=
In-Reply-To: <9eenl1+66h3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522204405.03494b90@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19243

At 10:02 PM 5/22/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Is the name another clue?  Cassandra was doomed to prophesy correctly
>but never be believed.  Is Trelawney a Cassandra, more accurate than
>the Trio and most others tend to think?  (My personal opinion:  Nah,
>she's an old fraud who's right about once in 300 tries.)

I agree -- I think it's just another mythological allusion...



                         -- Dave




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Wed May 23 07:35:19 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:35:19 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9eevob+agee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0e35a$eb3ed820$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19244

>Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me - "
>
> and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen pounced."

If there was only one legal move that the knight could make at that point,
and the chess board obeyed the ordinary rule that one a player has touched a
piece they have to move it, even if they suddenly realise that they have
made a mistake, the queen would be legally entitled to take Ron the instant
he moved, though it is better etiquette (and psychology) to wait till the
piece actually lands on the disputed square.

Susan




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 07:11:17 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:11:17 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin's emotional problems/char analysis
References: <9ef9au+q63c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE29g3bHlwWkVNqXSvU00001f29@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19245

"why people on this list refer to 
Sirius as Sirius but Lupin as Lupin" thread and the "we love Lupin 
but he's got some emotional issues to work through" thread.

  Hmmm, I never noticed we do that. Why are we more willing to address Sirius by first name? Lupin does seem more reserved. I'm surprised he trusted Snape to make the wolfsbane for him. I mean, he could have been poisoned.

  What emotional problems has he got?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 07:17:54 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:17:54 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thoughts on Hagrid
References: <e5.6ac8956.283c7e85@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OE354fbS3JH47R674Ow00001f6e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19246

  In further reference to CoS storylines, does Hagrid know that he was set up 
  by Tom Riddle and was not, in fact, responsible for Myrtle's death, and does 
  he know that Tom Riddle grew up to be Lord Voldemort?

  It would appear as if he doesn't know he was framed, though I don't think it's in his nature to make a fuss about it if he did know. He seems to be in the dark about a lot of things. Then again, the spiders could have told him he was framed, so he might know. Hard to say.

  Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 07:36:16 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:36:16 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA
References: <20010521.160324.-761229.2.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com> <3B0ABF70.288128E4@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <OE25XwHyqk4hPO1eVGi00001f2c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19247

  Pam wrote:

      Actually, I think Snape's reputed desire for the DADA job is one of
  those red herrings that we've been discussing here lately.  There's no
  real evidence that Snape wants the DADA job; we've not heard him talk
  about it, we've not heard any of the teachers (with perhaps the
  exception of Lupin, whose view of Snape is somewhat colored by their
  history) say that Snape is after the job.  

  Perhaps. However, Snape has been particularly nasty to everyone who has held the DADA position. Of course, that could all be chalked up to incompetence, but Lupin and Moody were very competent. I wonder why Snape dislikes Lupin. It can't be just because he's a werewolf.

  I wonder why JKR is setting
  us up with this idea; where might it go in the future?

  Hmmm, and another question: Why was Snape Lockheart's assistant for the dueling club? Does it say something about Snape's dueling abilities? I could see Snape getting into a dueling match, perhaps with Voldie.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 07:39:47 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:39:47 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Errol
References: <9eek16+i7ve@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE74kyCKDkb9pPFR6sK00001e7f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19248

Is anyone else concerned with the way the Weasleys treat Errol.  Seems kinda cruel to keep using him when he keeps ending up unconscious after every delivery.                     Rick

Yeah, but I always thought they were just that poor. I'm surprised Errol is still alive, the poor bird. It's a shame the Weasleys wouldn't accept some of Harry's money. If it were me, I'd take it. He'd be my friend after all, and all too willing to help out. An owl is an essential, after all.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 08:09:48 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:09:48 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark creatures
References: <9eerq0+goin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE729eJjt8gsVWDKpzx00001df4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19249

        We talk alot about Dark Creatures on this list...but is this a 
  phrase JKR has actually used? I can't remember reading it in the 
  books...can somebody give me a citation? Or is this fanon?

  Thanks
  Pippin

  I'm not sure if it's canon, but I think it is implied that certain creatures are dark while others are good. The phoenix and unicorn are examples of pure creatures, while dementors and trolls are bad. I think Voldie wanted giants and werewolves in his army as well, though I'm not certain.

  Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 23 09:12:24 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:12:24 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
In-Reply-To: <9eemoe+94b3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9efuto+iarg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19250

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> MMM wrote:
> 
> > (Pettigrew even used the word Voldemort, which is 
> > strange because he just flinched at the name two paragraphs above 
> > it.  Inconsistency on JKR's part?)
> 
> Good catch!  I think it's a good piece of characterization on JKR's 
> part, not an inconsistency.  Sirius is scathing towards Peter when 
he 
> flinches; a few moments later, Peter says the name as if to prove 
> that he isn't afraid, Voldemort is not his master, and he's just 
like 
> Sirius and Remus.
> 
> You can't read too much into any one use of any name (e.g. I'm not 
> going to conclude that Snape is really a DE because the one time he 
> mentions Voldemort he calls him the Dark Lord), but there do seem 
to 
> be trends.
> 
> Amy Z

Agreed.  I don't have COS in front of me, but IIRC Tom Riddle hints 
that Voldemort was intended to be a name that his followers would use 
and the rest of the world would fear to.  Dumbledore simply refuses 
to play by those rules.

Dark Lord I believe is mainly poetic, or to emphasise Voldemort's 
unique status (supposed - *is* he special or just another dark 
wizard?).  Try running Trelawney's 'real' prediction with Dark Lord 
replaced by you-know-who or he-who-must-not-be-named and it becomes 
comical; by Voldemort and it becomes too matter-of-fact.  As such it 
is used by both sides.

Talking about red herrings, did anyone notice that the name 
Grindelwald contains the letters R I D D L and E.  The remaining 
letters are then G N W A L - I can't make anything of it but I'm sure 
you will! Just add a suitable phrase like 'I am Lord...' and take it 
from there.

David




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 23 09:21:17 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:21:17 -0000
Subject: Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
In-Reply-To: <9eeqg9+bbu4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9efved+v6sv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19251

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jenny T. Malmiola" <zenonah at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sara Metz 
> <hermionegranger.gryffindor at j...> wrote:
> 
> > year. We don't know what the first was. The textbook 
> > is "Unfogging the Future" by Cassandra Vablatsky, 
> 
> Nice one, JKR, again! Madame Blavatsky was the founder of the 
> Teosophist Society in New York at the end of the 19th century. 
> Claimed she had a connection to the akashic-world-memory and 
> spiritual beings told him the truth about how humans came into this 
> world. Spent many years in Tibet and wrote atleast a book
> called "The  Veil of Isis".

> Jenny

and wasn't Cassandra someone who was always making dire predictions?

David




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 09:25:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:25:01 -0000
Subject: L&J typical?  (bit o' FF) (was defense of Sirius and James)
In-Reply-To: <F16lZz02H67yRLVbNDN00010582@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9efvld+8193@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19252

Ebony wrote:

> Which begs the question of whether the J and L romance is typical or 
> atypical in the wizarding world.  If typical, then all those who say 
that we 
> shippers are nuts ("who marries the people they grow up with?") 
ought to 
> think twice.  If atypical, then one wonders *why* they were in such 
a rush 
> to get married/have children... I could suggest several reasons why, 
but the 
> prevailing winds on list would blow me over.

Ja.  On the typical side:  I certainly don't think shippers are nuts, 
but it does strain credulity when people think Harry is going to marry
Ginny AND Ron is going to marry Hermione AND Fred is going to marry 
Angelina AND Fleur is going to marry Bill AND Neville is going to 
marry Crookshanks.  You know, I can believe in one or two 
childhood-friendship-->marriage relationships, but when there are too
many in a single fanfic, I begin to wonder just what's in the Hogwarts 
water.
 
If atypical, I don't think we need a reason why they were in such a 
rush.  Maybe it's as simple as: they were wildly in love and
didn't see any reason to wait.  We can generate reasons that may be 
more interesting from the point of view of plot, such as they
got pregnant (scandalous!) or with Voldy breathing down their necks 
they thought they'd better live fast (tragic!), and maybe any
or all of them will prove true, but I don't think we need to explain 
it just because it's unusual.  Deviation from the norm is normal.
 
Amy Z   <--entered her lifetime relationship at 22.  ::belligerently:: 
Got a problem with that?  <g>




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 09:37:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:37:43 -0000
Subject: Dark creatures
In-Reply-To: <9eerq0+goin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eg0d7+rh4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19253

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 	We talk alot about Dark Creatures on this list...but is this a 
> phrase JKR has actually used? I can't remember reading it in the 
> books...can somebody give me a citation? Or is this fanon?
> 
> Thanks
> Pippin

On behalf of L.O.O.N., I salute you.  I'm not sure this is canon 
either.  The reference that comes to mind is something I can't check 
because my copy of GF is still lent (apparently there exist people who 
can keep a Harry Potter book on their nighttable and read a chapter a 
night rather than stay up all night until it's done).  When Harry 
first goes into Moody's office (this would be in "The First Task," 
IIRC), there's a description of how it looked under previous 
occupants.  It says something about how when Lupin lived there there 
was usually some interesting creature they were about to study.  The 
adjective might've been "dark."

Amy Z
who wishes she had one of those (mythical?) searchable CDs--though on 
the other hand, half the fun is the things you find while searching 
page by page






From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 10:27:12 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 03:27:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The real Sirius
In-Reply-To: <9eeuqj+qvdb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010523102712.29207.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19254

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> >
> > According to Hagrid in PoA, Sirius wanted to take 
> > care of Harry after James and Lily were killed, and he argued
> > against sending Harry to the Dursleys.  As far as Sirius knew,
> > the Dursleys were perfectly decent people who would take good
> > care of their nephew, but he was still quite adamant about taking
> > Harry.  I think the fact that he was willing to take care of his
> > young godson even though Harry had other family shows that 
> > he was rather mature at that time.  Loyal, too.
> 

I don't think it was a sign of maturity but rather a display of good
intentions.  A young man in his early 20's with (probably) very
little hands-on experience of babies would have a very steep learning
curve when it comes to raising one.

Now all the fan-fic types can write in with all of Sirius' experience
with small children and animals he has been kind to during his
adolesence.  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From mark_weasley at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 10:36:26 2001
From: mark_weasley at hotmail.com (mark_weasley at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:36:26 -0000
Subject: The Chamber of Secret Chamber Pots (was Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <9cr112+sfdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eg3ra+k3vi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19255

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > > So as things stand right now, Harry is going to visit a whole 
new 
> > > magical world; a room in Hogwarts whose significance he's been 
> > unaware 
> > > of; and places we've heard of but haven't seen the inside of.  
> > That's 
> > > quite an itinerary.  I'm excited, but I hope we get some plain 
> old 
> > > Gryffindor common room time too!
> 
> When JKR said that if she went to Hogwarts, she would visit a room 
> which Harry had discovered in GoF, but hadn't discovered its 
magical 
> properties yet, I immediately thought of the kitchens.  Are there 
any 
> other rooms of significance that could qualify here?
> 
> Catherine


Actually, Jo Rowling didn't say it was a room Harry had discovered.  
Her exact statement was (from the BBC Red Nose Day chat):

Q: If you could travel to Hogwarts for an hour, what would you do 
there?
A: Go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four, which has 
certain magical properties Harry hasn't discovered yet!.. 

I immediately thought JKR was referring to the room Dumbledore 
mentions at the Yule Ball which he discovered on the way to the 
bathroom-- the room full of chamber pots.

I thought Rowling meant that upon her arrival at Hogwarts, she'd want 
to go that chamber to ..er.. freshen up first.  I thought the whole 
chamber pot room was just a gag.  But, then (in true HP-fan fashion) 
I thought about it some more (probably too much!)  What if that room 
does possess a secret, one of those of which Dumbledore humbly claims 
ignorance?

It is now one of my favorite pet theories that there's more to the 
"Chamber of Secret Chamber Pots".  The chamber could actually have 
the magical property of producing what one needs or wants (a "Chamber 
of Desire"?)  Dumbledore, with his simple wants (and his full bladder 
at the time), sees only a room full of magnificent vessels for 
bedroom relief.  But to anyone less serene than the headmaster, who 
knows what the chamber would provide?  =)

--Mark
Hi, all!  New here.  First post.  =)




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed May 23 10:54:38 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:54:38 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dark creatures
In-Reply-To: <9eg0d7+rh4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEIBDJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 19256

Pippin: <<<We talk alot about Dark Creatures on this list...but is this a
phrase JKR has actually used? I can't remember reading it in the books...can
somebody give me a citation? Or is this fanon?>>>

Amy: <<<On behalf of L.O.O.N., I salute you.  I'm not sure this is canon
either.  The reference that comes to mind is something I can't check because
my copy of GF is still lent (apparently there exist people who can keep a
Harry Potter book on their nighttable and read a chapter a night rather than
stay up all night until it's done).  When Harry first goes into Moody's office
(this would be in "The First Task," IIRC), there's a description of how it
looked under previous occupants.  It says something about how when Lupin lived
there there was usually some interesting creature they were about to study.
The adjective might've been "dark.">>>

GoF chapter 20: He had visited this office under two of its previous
occupants. ... When Lupin had lived here, you were more likely to come across
a specimen of some fascinating new Dark creature he had procured for them to
study in class.

The point to notice is, assuming it is not a mistype, that the word used is
Dark and not dark.



Simon
--
Acalculia (a??kal-ku?le-ah) an inability to solve mathematical calculations
(Miller-Keane Medical Dictionary, 2000)
WELL, MATHS, said Death dismissively. GENERALLY I NEVER GET MUCH FURTHER THAN
SUBTRACTION (Thief of Time - Terry Pratchett)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From mark_weasley at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 12:27:33 2001
From: mark_weasley at hotmail.com (mark_weasley at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:27:33 -0000
Subject: Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
In-Reply-To: <9efved+v6sv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egabl+53t6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19257

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> 
> and wasn't Cassandra someone who was always making dire predictions?
> 
> David

Not really.  Cassandra was a Trojan princess, who was loved by the 
god Apollo and given the power of prophecy by him.  She would not 
return his advances, but he couldn't revoke the gift so he just 
tagged on some fine print to it, that..oh..no one would believe any 
of her prophecies.  (Good example:  She warned the Trojans not to 
take in the wooden horse left by the Greeks, but did they listen?)  A 
sad lot, to know that disaster is coming but be powerless to avert 
it.  (When Troy fell, she was taken captive by Agamemnon the Greek 
commander.  She and Agamemnon were murdered by Agamemnon's unfaithful 
queen when he got home after the 10-year war.  She knew the fate in 
store for her and met it with resignation.)
Anyway, Cassandra's name has come to mean "one that utters unheeded 
prophecies".  

--Mark




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed May 23 12:46:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:46:52 -0000
Subject: Red Flags, Dobby and Apparition
In-Reply-To: <9ef1ih+ha6s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egbfs+sabf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19258

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> > > It seems to me that Dobby just Disapparated.  And he did it
> > > before, when he visited Harry in the hospital wing.  Now, I 
haven't
> > > read Hogwarts, A History, but I do know that you aren't 
supposed to
> > > be able to Apparate or Disapparate inside Hogwarts.  Is this a 
red
> > > flag?  Just how powerful are house elves, anyway?  
***************************
My own thought on this subject is that the house elves are given 
special permission to apparate & disapparate, in order to do all the 
tasks around Hogwarts, without being seen. Pop in, clean the room, 
pop out. Remember ... they are never seen but quite efficient.

Doreen, who keeps waiting for her house elf to get off his lazy butt 




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 13:20:42 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 06:20:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More about Fleur
In-Reply-To: <F192dRr8N0QB2qIuSRh000064a8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010523132042.68298.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19259


--- Ebony Elizabeth Thomas <ebonyink at hotmail.com> wrote:
> And why are so many against Bill/Fleur?  We're not saying they must
> live happily ever after... we just want that Burrow visit scene.  ;-)

Erm, I didn't think there were that many against Bill/Fleur. I thought
only Amy and I were against it? There seem to be more for that
relationship than against.

As to why I'm against it...well, I'm not the biggest supporter of
romance. So it's a purely selfish motivation for me. Fleur is also not
one of my favorite characters. I don't particularly want to see her
again (although with the hint that JKR dropped, it's most likely going
to happen).

As for the Burrow visit...maybe it would be slightly amusing. But I've
never been fond of the veela concept. I wouldn't enjoy seeing the
Weasley males following her around, tongues hanging out of their
mouths. If such a thing happened, I'd probably "harrumph" like
Hermione, roll my eyes, and flip to the next chapter.

~Amber
(Who's not afraid to display her "No-Ship" button prominently)


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Wed May 23 13:21:02 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:21:02 -0000
Subject: Jinxes and Curses
Message-ID: <9egdfu+k64o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19260

This may have already been covered somewhere, but since I don't want 
to go through all 19,258 posts to find out, I'll ask now.

Do we know what the official difference between a jinx and a curse 
is?  It seems to me that a jinx of a playful thing, while a curse is 
malicious.  Is this accurate?  There are exceptions of course, like 
the "Curse of the Bogies" (sorry, don't have my books with me to 
provide exact reference), for example.  Ron says it to Harry (??? I 
think), so that would suggest to me that it is more of a playful 
thing and has something to do with boogers (*bogies* in most British 
held places).  

If I have offended anyone with my lack of reference, I do humbly 
apologize, I'm posting from work and when the phone rings I have to 
answer...darn emergencies.

Michelle :)  YAH!  My first post ever! :)




From browneyes1420 at aol.com  Wed May 23 00:54:21 2001
From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:54:21 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
Message-ID: <35.157216f1.283c643d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19261

In a message dated 5/22/01 6:38:52 PM Central Daylight Time, 
hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com writes:
> 
> 
> Arithmancy
>     More is known on this class than Ancient Runes, though we have never
> seen a     class in action. Hermione has taken this both her Third and
> Fourth years; she     tells Harry that this is her favorite class. It is
> taught by Professor Vector, one of     which indicates that words may factor
> in this class along with numbers. The     homework includes a variety of
> complicated number charts, and probably     corresponds to Muggle algebra
> 


Daer Hermoine, I read that Arithmancy is the prediction of the future through 
numbers and number charts. However, though this was the actual use of the 
subject a long time ago, this does not sound like something hermoine would 
like, I was under the impression that she hated divination in all forms. I 
agree however that the word Vector implies the use of (muggle?) numbers.
Joe



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May 23 13:37:14 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:37:14 -0000
Subject: Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
In-Reply-To: <e5.6ac8956.283c7e85@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9egeea+mv44@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19262

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote:
> Hello, I'm Jami, just joined today, happy to be here. I'm 33, live 
outside of 
> Washington, D.C. and my son and I are both obsessed with Harry 
Potter. 
> Thought I'd chime in on this one ... 
> 
> In a message dated 5/22/2001 7:38:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> hermionegranger.gryffindor at j... writes:
> 
> << 3) Could Professor Trelawney's first true prediction have been 
about
>     Voldemort?
>     
>     4) Does Dumbledore keep Trelawney around in hopes she will have
>     predictions about Voldemort?
>   >>
> 
> I believe the answers to both of these are yes ... one of the 
questions I 
> often find myself pondering is why Voldemort had it in for James 
and Harry, 
> but not Lily Potter, and an answer I come up with is that perhaps 
Trelawney 
> predicted that his ultimate downfall would be at the hands of the 
last of the 
> Potter bloodline ... or maybe Harry is the last descendant of 
Gryffindor, and 
> he is pre-ordained to kill the last descendant of Slytherin? 
> 
> In further reference to CoS storylines, does Hagrid know that he 
was set up 
> by Tom Riddle and was not, in fact, responsible for Myrtle's death, 
and does 
> he know that Tom Riddle grew up to be Lord Voldemort?
> 
> Great to be here!
> 
> Jami

Welcome to the group!  I just have one thought to add.  I think that 
the first prediction is more specific than that.  Reason being, if 
Harry is the last descendent of Gryffindor, and it means last, as in 
end of the line, that means poor Harry won't be having any children 
to continue it, implying, of course, that he won't live long enough 
to have children.  Ditto with Voldemort.  Same applies if it is last 
of the Potter bloodline.  I do hope that isn't what JKR has in store 
for us - I don't want Harry to die!

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May 23 13:39:29 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:39:29 -0000
Subject: Lupin's return
In-Reply-To: <9ef9au+q63c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egeih+h3ft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19263

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" <tmayor at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dianne Singson <dianne at s...> wrote:
> I was just wondering, if Lupin comes back in Book 5, how will Harry
> > & co. address him? 
> 
> Can't resist applauding this question, as it ties to together a 
whole 
> bunch of threads that have been rampant of late, including 
the "what 
> people call one another" thread and the "when we find out Lupin's 
> first name and why" thread and the "why people on this list refer 
to 
> Sirius as Sirius but Lupin as Lupin" thread and the "we love Lupin 
> but he's got some emotional issues to work through" thread.
> 
> Unfortunately, having pointed this out, I have no answer to 
suggest. 
> I think there would be much awkwardness and Harry & Co. would wind 
up 
> calling him nothing specific at all or Professor, even though it's 
no 
> longer appropriate, just because there *is* this reserve that 
> precludes a first-name basis with him. 
> 
> ~Rosmerta

It surely depends on their relationship.  If it is to be formal (and 
respectful) it will be Mr Lupin.  If they become friendly through 
Remus, surely they will be asked to call him Remus?  That is what 
happens in the muggle world, anyway.  I can't see them calling him 
Lupin.

Catherine




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 13:45:12 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 06:45:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dark creatures
In-Reply-To: <9eg0d7+rh4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010523134512.27842.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19264


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> The reference that comes to mind is
> something I can't check 
> because my copy of GF is still lent (apparently
> there exist people who 
> can keep a Harry Potter book on their nighttable and
> read a chapter a 
> night rather than stay up all night until it's
> done).  When Harry 
> first goes into Moody's office (this would be in
> "The First Task," 
> IIRC), there's a description of how it looked under
> previous 
> occupants.  It says something about how when Lupin
> lived there there 
> was usually some interesting creature they were
> about to study.  The 
> adjective might've been "dark."
> 
Here's the quote, Amy. From GoF, Chapter 20:

"When Lupin had lived there, you were more likely to
come across a specimen of some fascinating new Drak
creature he had procured for them to study in class."

That's the only one I can think of. Are there others?
Anyone wonder what JKR means by "lived there", ie.
does she mean Lupin literally lived in his office?
That just now struck me.

Anne

__________________________________________________
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From nera at rconnect.com  Wed May 23 14:07:01 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:07:01 -0000
Subject: Lupin's return
In-Reply-To: <3B0B219B.BD3AFAA1@surfshop.net.ph>
Message-ID: <9egg65+kgco@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19265

> 
> I've been lurking for quite some time, and I know that I'm a bit 
young
> for this group as I'm only 16 (although I enjoy the discussions a 
lot)
> but I was just wondering, if Lupin comes back in Book 5, how will 
Harry
> & co. address him? "Professor Lupin" doesn't seem right; are they 
going
> to call him Remus, like Harry addresses Sirius? That sounds a bit
> awkward. Mr. Lupin? Moony? Sorry if I'm rambling.
> 
> --Dianne (",)
********************************
I still meet with my former sixth grade teacher when I go back to 
Joliet. Even though he has told me that I can now address him as 
Guido, I still call him, Mr. DelRose, mostly out of respect, but also 
because a part of me will always see him as, Mr. DelRose, the teacher 
that I had a crush on for many years, who later became one of my best 
friends.

So, I do not really see anything wrong with them calling him 
Professor, since he was theirs. I just do not really see them calling 
him, Remus or Lupin.

Doreen




From dosser at btinternet.com  Wed May 23 15:05:02 2001
From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:05:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
References: <9e7vrr+usl9@eGroups.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010522201749.00de2710@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002401c0e399$f3bfab20$b005073e@chris>

No: HPFGUIDX 19266

Hi, I am Chris, a new member and this is my first posting so be gentle with me!

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dave Hardenbrook 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 4:42 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?


  At 12:20 AM 5/23/01 +0000, rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:
  >I don't know chess contest rules, never learned to play at all well,
  >so I don't know whether the move is official as soon as Ron leaves
  >his home square.

  The official rule is that as soon as you touch a piece, you must move it,
  and when you let it go, that's the move and cannot be taken back.  The
  only known instance of a tournament player violating this rule and getting
  away with it is Garry Kasparov (Slytherin in a past or future life?), in a
  match against Judith Polgar (Seeker for the Hungarian Quidditch team in a
  past or future life?) -- The referee (Snape in a past or future life?) ruled in
  Kasparov's favor, even though most people agree he took back the
  move after letting go of the piece.

  >As to the arrangement of pieces, at the start of the Christmas holidays 
  >JKR unfortunately says wizard chess is "exactly like
  >Muggle chess except that the figures were alive."

  But that's normal Wizard chess, which McGonnegal's chess seems to
  deviate from, i.e. the pices are faceless; and perhaps some form
  of "Fairy Chess" rules was adopted to make it all the harder.  Maybe
  McGonnegal saw that exhibit at the Pompidou Center in Paris in
  the mid-80's that included a life-size chess game with rules no one
  could figure out.

  >Or it's on PC, perhaps.  There's been at least one animated character
  >chess game, but I forget the name.

  _Battle Chess_, which I never liked.  Hopefully the Hogwarts version
  will be less violent.



                           -- Dave

  I love the idea that McGonnegal used a rare version of "faerie" chess where the back ranks are randomized, to make things more difficult.  It's certainly recognized in the chess world that opening theory would all go out of the window in this version of the game. This would solve the problem concerning the bishop being next to the rook at the start of the game.  
  As for Judith Polgar being Hungarian national Quidditch team seeker in a previous/future existance, this seems inspired!  Maybe her sisters Zusa and Zsophia would also make the team as beaters?  Kasparov would seem to be a Slytherin at heart too, cunning and calculating, but this applies to a lot of chess players in my experience.

  thanks for some facinating discussions guys

  Chris



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From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 15:32:21 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:32:21 -0000
Subject: Lupin's return
In-Reply-To: <9ef9au+q63c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egl65+4h80@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19267

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" <tmayor at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dianne Singson <dianne at s...> wrote:
> > I was just wondering, if Lupin comes back in Book 5, how will
> > Harry & co. address him? 
> 
> Unfortunately, having pointed this out, I have no answer to
> suggest.  I think there would be much awkwardness and Harry & Co.
> would wind up calling him nothing specific at all or Professor,
> even though it's no longer appropriate, just because there *is*
> this reserve that precludes a first-name basis with him.

Let me draw a "real-life" parallel....

When I was an exchange student in Germany as a senior in high school,
my host family had me assigned ahead of my arrival to a tenth grade
class at the local Gymnasium (college-prep high school, lyc?e).
This was partly so that I wouldn't be overwhelmed by the German 
spoken in my classes, and partly because they didn't want to pay my
bus fare, which was subsidized for students up through tenth grade.

However, my German was the best in my cohort of exchange students,
and I had already taken college-level classes in other subjects.
Accordingly, I dickered successfully to get raised to an eleventh
grade class (although the records continued to show tenth grade).

Several of my teachers recognized the awkwardness of my situation.
One of them even offered that I was more of a colleague than a student
(rather overblown on his part).  In turn, he suggested I use his
first name with him as well as the familiar form of "you" (Du).

This only lasted a few days.  In class, calling him by his first name
and using "Du" drew irritated stares from the other students.  I
couldn't deal with them thinking there was something wrong with me,
so, to his consternation, I went back to calling him "Herr Koops" and
using "Sie" like the other students did.

I think the situation would be similar here.  They may be on a first-
name basis with Remus in private, but in the classroom, it could only
be Professor Lupin.

....Craig




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 15:58:51 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:58:51 -0000
Subject: Intro/Snape Analysis
In-Reply-To: <OE28HGmCvoXM7e0C9gu00001af0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9egmnr+lh89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19268

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> Hi. I'm new to the list. I'm young, a mere 19 years old.
> 
> Sorry for bringing up Snape again, but he's one of my fav 
characters. He's
> just so intriguing, and perhaps that's why we talk about him a lot, 


Hi Vicky,

Yes, Snape is so intriguing.  There are quite a few Snape lovers here 
and of course there are quite a few who could go without ever hearing 
his name again :-)

There is a site you might enjoy.  Many of the same people who post 
here post on this Snape site.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Snapefans

I'm not really sure if the above is correct.  Maybe someone else can 
point you in the right direction.

Anyway, there have been some good discussions here on this board 
about Snape but I'm afraid you will just have to take the time to go 
back and find them.  Same thing for the other board.

Hope to see you over at Snapefans and of course here!

Koinonia




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed May 23 16:05:54 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:05:54 -0000
Subject: Can He Steal the Stone Tonight? (filk)
Message-ID: <9egn52+34po@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19269

Can He Steal the Stone Tonight? (from PS/SS)

(To the tune of Can You Feel the Love Tonight?,  from The Lion King) 

(THE SCENE: Before Hogwarts' Castle. Enter HARRY, RON, HERMIONE)

HARRY: Nick Flamel is a wizard who
. 
RON: Huh?
HARRY: Controls a certain stone
.. 
RON: Oh
HARRY: And with its power it seems your funeral 
You may indefinitely postpone
RON: Cool!

HARRY, RON & HERMIONE
One may become immortal
With this Stone in one's stock
But we think Severus Snape would love to own
A piece of this grand rock

Can he steal the stone tonight?
What's Snape got up his sleeve?
Hagrid says to trust the guy
We think he's been deceived 

RON
We know that Snape is clever,
Resourceful and tough, he
Is going to find that it's impossible 
To tiptoe past Fluffy

HERMIONE
If Snape wins life eternal
It's a dreadful impasse
Our great-great-great-great granddaughter's kids 
Must attend his potions class

(Enter SNAPE and QUIRRELL)

SNAPE (to himself)
I won't steal the stone tonight
I'm allied with Dumbledore 
The potions I've thrown in the maze
Won't let thieves through that door

QUIRRELL (to himself)
I won't steal the stone tonight
For now I'll bide my time
Lord Voldemort has got my back
I'll restore him to his prime.

ALL
And if the stone is swiped tonight
It can be assumed
Our epic saga will last one volume
Our narrative thread is doomed.

  - CMC





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Wed May 23 16:03:41 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:03:41 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] L&J typical? - Sirius
In-Reply-To: <9efvld+8193@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEBPCFAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 19270

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]

> Amy Z   <--entered her lifetime relationship at 22.  ::belligerently:: 
> Got a problem with that?  <g>

Not at all. <g> But at that age, I wouldn't have even thought of a
lifetime relationship. But I'm not a very good or representative
example, since I am still single at 42 and quite happy like that.
So I tend to believe that it is at least not the rule to enter a lifetime
relationship at that young age, even more as wizards age at a 
slower rate as Susan has pointed out. If I had the perspective
of living 150 years - if I don't get hit by bus of course -, I would
think that I have all my time to settle down. And the times were
tough when Voldemort was at the height of his reign, I really
think I would have waited unless I would have met the love
of my life. In that case, you might want to do just the opposite
and spend every minute possible with him or her, agreed.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magda Grantwich [mailto:mgrantwich at yahoo.com]

> I don't think it was a sign of maturity but rather a display of good
> intentions.  A young man in his early 20's with (probably) very
> little hands-on experience of babies would have a very steep learning
> curve when it comes to raising one.

May I ask what's wrong with this? Even if it is true, a lot of young
fathers *and* mothers have to learn how to handle a baby. I for
sure wouldn't know if no one showed me. But then, it's Sirius
and he doesn't really care, right? Again, we *don't know*
from canon how irresponsible he really was. Switching Secret-
Keepers wasn't exactly irresponsible in my eyes, sorry. 

> Now all the fan-fic types can write in with all of Sirius' experience
> with small children and animals he has been kind to during his
> adolesence.

I have really no intention to offend anyone on this list, but I think the
above remark is a bit offensive. Just because we see him differently
does not mean we think he's perfect. And yes, I think this guy
who is eating rats is an interesting subject to discuss, just as
a certain werewolf...

Monika
who knows she shouldn't have replied to this and who is 
thinking about updating her kill file...

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 16:07:48 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:07:48 -0000
Subject: Digest  895/Sirius/Snape
In-Reply-To: <9ef1co+cq7q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egn8k+5uvk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19271

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:

I think that there is more to the 
> original grudge between Sirius and Snape than what we have heard 
> about so far.  And a contested love interest could certainly be a 
> motivating factor. 


I don't know what it is but there sure seems to be something else 
besides what we have been told.


 I can certainly see that, even after all these 
> years, Snape still feels hatred towards someone who may have 
> indirectly caused his death.  But, I've never seen why Sirius would 
> have the same level of loathing towards Snape.


The excuse Sirius gives is rather weak.  You would send someone to 
meet a werewold just because that guy is a pest and rather nosy?  
There has to be more to it than that, IMHO.


  You'd think that 
> Sirius (who I am terribly fond of) would, by this time in his life, 
> have relegated the trick to send Snape through the tunnel to the 
> Shrieking Shack as old history.  
> 
> Yet his loathing of Snape still seems very...current, as if they've 
> been feuding constantly as adults, even though they haven't seen 
each 
> other in over a decade.


You're right.  They just can't seem to get over what caused them to 
be enemies.  Hey, maybe it is Florence and she will be the new DADA 
teacher ;)


I'm sure 
> that JKR has more in store for us in the continuing saga of Severus 
> and Sirius.


I'm counting on it.  I would love to see more of Sirius (but much 
more Snape) in the next book.  I wonder how that is going to be 
possible since there is still that little matter of him being wanted 
hanging over his head.  Same thing for Lupin.  I want to see more of 
him but wonder how that will be.

Snape, Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore.  I love them all!  Too bad they 
won't all be around by the end of the series.  Somehow, I just think 
Sirius is going to be the only one to survive.  I don't know why I 
feel that way and boy, I hope I'm wrong.  

Koinonia




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 16:17:05 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:17:05 -0000
Subject: Lupin's silence - What to call him - Chess flint
Message-ID: <9egnq1+j1d1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19272

Rosmerta wrote:

>First of all, *doesn't* Lupin say something netural like "oh really?"
>(sorry, don't have my book here). 

Kristin answered this, but here's the rest & my 2 Knuts.

  "Professor Snape's very interested in the Dark Arts," he blurted 
out.
  "Really?" said Lupin, looking only mildly interested as he took 
another gulp of potion.
  "Some people reckon--" Harry hesitated, then plunged recklessly on, 
"some people reckon he'd do anything to get the Defense against the 
Dark Arts job."
  Lupin drained the goblet and pulled a face.
  "Disgusting," he said.  "Well, Harry, I'd better get back to work.  
I'll see you at the feast later."  (PA 8)

Rosmerta continued:

>Either way, I think his non-
>reaction is brought on by two desires,

>1) professionalism. 

<snip>

>2) He seems intent in this scene and other one-on-one-with-Harry
>scenes to tell him as little as possible about his own life and his
>intimate involvement with Harry's father and friends and enemy (i.e.,
>Snape). So his response would also be neutral to avoid having to
>indicate that he knows anything at all about Snape.

I agree (esp. with #1), and also wonder what we think Lupin ought to 
say.  Harry is basically saying, "Don't drink that--Snape wants your 
job badly enough to poison you," and Lupin knows that's what he's 
saying, but is also certain that Snape wouldn't try to kill him (at 
least not in front of a witness <g>).  In answer to Sara's original 
question, yes, I think it's foolish for Harry to think otherwise & by 
extension, foolish of him to say anything about it to Lupin.  For 
Lupin to respond "Are you accusing Professor Snape of trying to kill 
me?" would make Harry really feel foolish, wouldn't it?  More or less 
ignoring Harry's warning, and quietly proving it wrong by drinking the 
potion and failing to drop dead, seems the tactful way to respond.

Rosmerta wrote:

>"why people on this list refer to Sirius as Sirius but Lupin as 
Lupin"

I for one tend that way because that's how they're referred to most 
often in the books.  I.e. I call them what Harry calls them.

As for when Lupin returns, I think Harry will keep calling him 
Professor Lupin unless Lupin urges him to do otherwise.  Then the 
usual awkwardness that comes with such switches will ensue until he 
gets used to it.  Lupin's not =that= reserved, IMO.  He's not as 
emotionally forthcoming as Sirius (e.g. we haven't seen him cry), but 
I think the basic issue is that Sirius is Sirius because he's family, 
and Lupin is Lupin because he's a professor.

Susan Hall wrote:

>If there was only one legal move that the knight could make at that 
point,
>and the chess board obeyed the ordinary rule that one a player has 
touched a
>piece they have to move it, even if they suddenly realise that they 
have
>made a mistake, the queen would be legally entitled to take Ron the 
instant
>he moved, though it is better etiquette (and psychology) to wait till 
the
>piece actually lands on the disputed square.

Ah!  But given the particular circumstances, wherein the queen doesn't 
just politely edge Ron off the board but clubs him over the head, 
etiquette is nil and psychology is the psychology of terror and 
intimidation.  So it all fits very well: with chess rules, with the 
personalities of wizard chess, and with the intimidation McGonagall 
is trying to convey.

Jo, I think you may have committed a Flint with this one, but creative 
thinkers are saving your bacon.

A couple of "me too" things:

Envy and thanks to CMC for managing to sneak in one of my favorite Tom 
Lehrer bits while remaining on topic.  I like the Trinity idea too 
(though do we have to have yet another all-male trinity?  Whatever 
happened to the Holy Spirit as female?).

Pippin wrote:

>I have stated in earlier posts my theory that the Mirror is itself a 
trap. If Voldemort had dared to look in it
>himself, would he not have seen himself achieving immortality, and so
>been trapped in front of it forever?

I'm glad you said it again, 'cause it's brilliant and you must 
have posted it before my time. 

Amy Z

P.S.  Happy belated birthday, Monika!

-------------------------------------------------------------
   "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia.  Her lips tightened
 as they always did if he dared to ask a question.
   "Your new school uniform," she said.
   Harry looked in the bowl again.
   "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet."
                           -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
-------------------------------------------------------------




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed May 23 16:30:06 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:30:06 -0000
Subject: L&J typical?  
In-Reply-To: <9efvld+8193@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egoie+cg0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19273

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Ebony wrote:
> 
> > Which begs the question of whether the J and L romance is typical 
or 
> > atypical in the wizarding world.  

(Snip)

> If atypical, I don't think we need a reason why they were in such a 
> rush.  Maybe it's as simple as: they were wildly in love and
> didn't see any reason to wait.  We can generate reasons that may be 
> more interesting from the point of view of plot, such as they
> got pregnant (scandalous!) or with Voldy breathing down their necks 
> they thought they'd better live fast (tragic!), and maybe any
> or all of them will prove true, but I don't think we need to 
explain 
> it just because it's unusual.  Deviation from the norm is normal.
>  
> Amy Z   <--entered her lifetime relationship at 
22.  ::belligerently:: 
> Got a problem with that?  <g>


This may be slightly OT.  If it is, sorry, but I think it does 
illustrate a point Amy Z made.  

My parents were married when he was 18 and she was 17.  There was a 
small thing called World War II going on (this was in 1942).  Yes, 
they were wildly in love (& stayed so until my dad died 4 years ago) 
and because of the war, they didn't want to wait.  Maybe the same 
held true for Lily & James.  Perspectives change when there's a war 
on.

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Wed May 23 16:41:54 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:41:54 -0400
Subject: spider eating 101 (was chapter 8 and 9)
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0981@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19274

Hi, folks!

In reference to a question about Crookshanks chewing a spider in Ron's
sight, Robert Carnegie wrote: 
> 
> A _large_ dead spider.  Although I suspect it's just put there
> by JKR to freak Ron out with his acranacrophobia (hi, joywitch :-)
> since he doesn't like spiders at _all_, even dead, so that he
> and Hermione can do their disagreeing-about-Crookshanks bit again,
> perhaps it just could be an early clue that Crookshanks has been
> exploring in the Forbidden Forest?
> 

Actually, jumping in with a minor correction I haven't seen anyone else post
yet: In CoS, Ron says he doesn't mind spiders when they're dead. It's in
chapter 9:

"'I - don't - like - spiders,' said Ron tensely.
"'I never knew that,' said Hermione, looking at Ron in surprise. 'You've
used spiders in Potions loads of times....'
"'I don't mind them dead,' said Ron, who was carefully looking anywhere but
at the window. 'I just don't like the way they move....'"

So Crookshanks chewing on a dead spider wouldn't be a problem for him,
though it does provide him fuel for the whole "your cat is a menace"
argument. [As a side note, Ron seems to be a type A arachnophobe: one who
can't even look at spiders and doesn't want to know anything about them; as
opposed to a type B arachnophobe: one who _has_ to know where they are at
all times. I'm a B: if I see a spider, I must keep my eye on it until it is
destroyed (usually by someone else). Otherwise, I get paranoid about where
it might have gotten to. But that's also because spiders delight in taunting
me.....]

Ahem. Anyway, the point is, I don't think Crookshanks is trying to freak out
Ron. I'm not so sure he's trying to send a message, either. I think
part-kneazle or not, he's still a cat and cats do like to chomp on random
bits of stuff lying around--sock fuzz, string, bugs, and spiders included
(my cats, anyway, Robert, YMMV). Given his kneazle heritage, it's possible
that Crooks is trying to put Ron at ease, but I suspect that's stretching
it.

Gwendolyn Grace



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed May 23 16:49:02 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:49:02 -0000
Subject: Dark creatures
In-Reply-To: <20010523134512.27842.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9egplu+de3d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19275

Thanks to Anne, Amy and Simon for filling me in...rereading the 
passage, I note that there is in fact a Dark creature in the office 
still: Crouch/Moody. Another fine example of JKR's irony.  ;)

Pippin





From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Wed May 23 17:02:09 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:02:09 -0400
Subject: Hagrid; Snape's tattling; DADA; Duelling Lockhart
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0982@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19276

On Hagrid:

>    From: "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Thoughts on Hagrid
> 
>   In further reference to CoS storylines, does Hagrid know 
> that he was set up 
>   by Tom Riddle and was not, in fact, responsible for 
> Myrtle's death, and does 
>   he know that Tom Riddle grew up to be Lord Voldemort?
> 

Well, you can take his own words to Tom in the flashback sequence from the
diary. He firmly believes that Aragog is innocent, and was moving him out of
the castle so he wouldn't be accused of doing the deeds. I think Hagrid
knows exactly what happened to him and he's learned to accept it.


On Snape and DADA:
> 
>   Pam wrote:
> 
>       Actually, I think Snape's reputed desire for the DADA 
> job is one of
>   those red herrings that we've been discussing here lately.  
> There's no
>   real evidence that Snape wants the DADA job; we've not 
> heard him talk
>   about it, we've not heard any of the teachers (with perhaps the
>   exception of Lupin, whose view of Snape is somewhat colored by their
>   history) say that Snape is after the job.  

Vicky:
>   Perhaps. However, Snape has been particularly nasty to 
> everyone who has held the DADA position. Of course, that 
> could all be chalked up to incompetence, but Lupin and Moody 
> were very competent. I wonder why Snape dislikes Lupin. It 
> can't be just because he's a werewolf.


I agree with Pam on this: I don't think Snape's interested in the DADA job.
I think he does honestly believe in Chapter 9 that there's a better than
even chance Lupin is helping Black and he feels it's his duty to warn
Dumbledore, whether or not Albus is angry with him for doing so. 

As for his behaviour to the other DADA teachers, look at things from Snape's
perspective. He probably thinks: 
1. Quirrell was a jibbering weak-minded fool; 
2. Lockhart was a vain and ignorant fool; 
3. Lupin is a misguided, treacle-coated idiot who thinks he can hide what he
is, what he's done, and what he's up to, and don't forget the age-old
rivalry; and 
4. Moody is a paranoid old git who would love to prove he's still got the
instincts to catch Death Eaters, and guess who looks like a primary target?

Is it any wonder Snape's nasty to them all? Of course, I think he's nasty to
Remus (there, I called him Remus, not Lupin) out of spite, but that's not
out of character at all for Severus to do. But I think his primary
motivation, as I said, is that he honestly fears that Remus is aiding
Sirius. And in a sense, he's right, since at the very least, Remus does
withhold information that would have helped greatly to identify Black.


Vicky again:
>   Hmmm, and another question: Why was Snape Lockheart's 
> assistant for the dueling club? Does it say something about 
> Snape's dueling abilities? I could see Snape getting into a 
> dueling match, perhaps with Voldie.
>
For this, I picture a long-suffering Severus agreeing (possibly
volunteering, but more likely responding to a request from Dumbledore) to be
present to keep things under control. As Flitwick never talks about his
duelling days, it's possible he doesn't like to do it anymore (think the old
gunfighter syndrome), and I can't see McGonagall condoning the club in the
first place. Assuredly it was Lockhart's idea and Albus consented, on the
condition that another, more experienced teacher, run the club with him. I
don't think Snape intended to be an "assistant" at all, by the way, but that
Lockhart twisted the situation to make himself look better, as he does
constantly.

Gwen



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 17:02:03 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:02:03 -0000
Subject: Errol - Jinxes/Curses - Sirius - Where profs. live
Message-ID: <9egqeb+3643@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19277

Vicky wrote:

> Yeah, but I always thought they were just that poor. I'm surprised 
Errol is
> still alive, the poor bird. It's a shame the Weasleys wouldn't 
accept some of
> Harry's money. If it were me, I'd take it. He'd be my friend after 
all, and all
> too willing to help out. An owl is an essential, after all.

He could give them a new owl as a thank you for their hospitality.  
It's only polite to bring a gift when you're going to stay for two 
weeks, so spinning it that way might spare their pride--and give poor 
Errol his much-earned retirement.

Michelle (welcome!) wrote:

>Do we know what the official difference between a jinx and a curse 
is? 

::misty voice::  All will be revealed when I unveil the "Spells and 
Charms/Nature of Magic" essay next week.  If I ever get off my lazy 
butt and write it, that is (yes, I am Doreen's elf <g>).

Monika wrote:

>Switching Secret-Keepers wasn't exactly irresponsible in my eyes, 
sorry. 

I agree.  Sirius's reasons were sound:  he thought he was too obvious 
a choice, and that Peter was a good bluff.  He didn't expect the 
switch to save him (Sirius) from the risk of torture; on the contrary, 
he offered himself as bait:  "Voldemort would be sure to come after 
me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you . . 
. " (PA 19).  Harry believes him when he says he would have died 
rather than betray Lily and James, so, so do I.  Sirius made a 
tactical error (which is no more than Lily and James did), but it 
wasn't out of cowardice or an unwillingness to shoulder the 
responsibility.

Anne wrote:

>"When Lupin had lived there, you were more likely to
>come across a specimen of some fascinating new Drak
>creature he had procured for them to study in class."

>Anyone wonder what JKR means by "lived there", ie.
>does she mean Lupin literally lived in his office?
>That just now struck me.

I have wondered this, and IIRC we kicked it around a bit during a 
discussion of whether any profs are married and whether they stay at 
Hogwarts all summer, but I would love for some thorough person to sort 
through references to "living" in offices and present a cogent theory 
for us.

You could interpret the above not as "when Lupin had lived in this 
room," but as "when Lupin had lived at Hogwarts" or even "in the 
area," i.e. before he moved far away, but it seems a stilted way to 
say it; one would be more likely to say "When Lupin taught here . . ." 
 IMO the strong implication is that Lupin lives in his office, or at 
least in a suite that includes his office.  His having tea things in 
his office hints that way too, although I keep tea things in my office 
and I'm not even English.  <g>  (I just caught the chipped mug, on 
what must be my 10th reading of this scene.  Nice detail.)

This bit from PS/SS 16 also implies that professors live where their 
offices are:

  "Where's Dumbledore's office?"
  They looked around, as if hoping to see a sign pointing them in the 
right direction.  They had never been told where Dumbledore lived, nor 
did they know anyone who had been sent to see him.

On the other hand, where exactly =does= Dumbledore live?  His office 
is just an office, and it's round, which strongly suggests that it's 
in a tower and that there's no other room on that floor.  His living 
quarters could be a floor above, or of course magically co-exist with 
the contents of his office.

OTOH, Snape does not appear to live in the same place as his office.  
In "The Egg and the Eye," he's walking the halls when he discovers 
that someone has broken into it.  Not definitive, I grant you--perhaps 
he was out for a cup of cocoa, or just a prowl, and returned to his 
office-apartment to find someone had been in there--but it does 
hint that his apartment is in one part of the castle and his office is 
in another.  Once again I keenly feel the absence of my GF (but with 
Anne and Simon generously doing research, who needs it?).

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
 "=Wow!=" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest 
 dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a 
 storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it 
 again by a giant sea-monster.
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------------------




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May 23 17:06:15 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:06:15 -0000
Subject: CORRECTION Re: Make Your Own Spell! (Contest #3)
In-Reply-To: <9ef7t2+vqgc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egqm7+218n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19278

Sorry, folks, in my last post I wrote the wrong contest address, so I 
am once again extending the deadline.  If you want to submit a spell 
to the Make Your Own Spell Contest, please submit it by 6 pm tonight 
(EST) by emailing it to 

HP4GUCon at aol.com

Sorry for the confusion. I was an idiot but I have changed, I will 
never make a mistake again.

--Joywitch (the new and improved version) 






From rick824 at webtv.net  Wed May 23 17:14:41 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:14:41 -0000
Subject: Errol
In-Reply-To: <OE74kyCKDkb9pPFR6sK00001e7f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9egr61+h2rh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19279

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> Is anyone else concerned with the way the Weasleys treat Errol.  Seems kinda cruel to keep using him when he keeps ending up unconscious after every delivery.                     Rick
> 
> Yeah, but I always thought they were just that poor. I'm surprised Errol is still alive, the poor bird. It's a shame the Weasleys wouldn't accept some of Harry's money. If it were me, I'd take it. He'd be my friend after all, and all too willing to help out. An owl is an essential, after all.
> 
> Vicky
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  
  Percy and Ron both have owls though.. wouldnt you think they could just use them?




From jrichard at atpco.com  Wed May 23 17:20:05 2001
From: jrichard at atpco.com (jrichard at atpco.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:20:05 -0000
Subject: Saying Voldemort's name
In-Reply-To: <9efuto+iarg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egrg5+9qf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19280

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> 
> Dark Lord I believe is mainly poetic, or to emphasise Voldemort's 
> unique status (supposed - *is* he special or just another dark 
> wizard?).  Try running Trelawney's 'real' prediction with Dark Lord 
> replaced by you-know-who or he-who-must-not-be-named and it becomes 
> comical; by Voldemort and it becomes too matter-of-fact.  As such 
it 
> is used by both sides.

One use of "Dark Lord" I particularly recall was in Ginny's singing 
Valentine (delivered by a grumpy "cupid"). It ended:
"I wish he were mine/The hero who conquered the Dark Lord."
Was she using it poetically, as a neutral term, or was she calling 
Voldie that reverently, because of the influence of Riddle's diary? 
Just a thought.




From rick824 at webtv.net  Wed May 23 17:23:51 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:23:51 -0000
Subject: Errol - Jinxes/Curses - Sirius - Where profs. live
In-Reply-To: <9egqeb+3643@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egrn7+pbdh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19281

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Vicky wrote:
> 
> > Yeah, but I always thought they were just that poor. I'm surprised 
> Errol is
> > still alive, the poor bird. It's a shame the Weasleys wouldn't 
> accept some of
> > Harry's money. If it were me, I'd take it. He'd be my friend after 
> all, and all
> > too willing to help out. An owl is an essential, after all.
> 
> He could give them a new owl as a thank you for their hospitality.  
> It's only polite to bring a gift when you're going to stay for two 
> weeks, so spinning it that way might spare their pride--and give poor 
> Errol his much-earned retirement.
> 
> Michelle (welcome!) wrote:
> 
> >Do we know what the official difference between a jinx and a curse 
> is? 
> 
> ::misty voice::  All will be revealed when I unveil the "Spells and 
> Charms/Nature of Magic" essay next week.  If I ever get off my lazy 
> butt and write it, that is (yes, I am Doreen's elf <g>).
> 
> Monika wrote:
> 
> >Switching Secret-Keepers wasn't exactly irresponsible in my eyes, 
> sorry. 
> 
> I agree.  Sirius's reasons were sound:  he thought he was too obvious 
> a choice, and that Peter was a good bluff.  He didn't expect the 
> switch to save him (Sirius) from the risk of torture; on the contrary, 
> he offered himself as bait:  "Voldemort would be sure to come after 
> me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you . . 
> . " (PA 19).  Harry believes him when he says he would have died 
> rather than betray Lily and James, so, so do I.  Sirius made a 
> tactical error (which is no more than Lily and James did), but it 
> wasn't out of cowardice or an unwillingness to shoulder the 
> responsibility.
> 
> Anne wrote:
> 
> >"When Lupin had lived there, you were more likely to
> >come across a specimen of some fascinating new Drak
> >creature he had procured for them to study in class."
> 
> >Anyone wonder what JKR means by "lived there", ie.
> >does she mean Lupin literally lived in his office?
> >That just now struck me.
> 
> I have wondered this, and IIRC we kicked it around a bit during a 
> discussion of whether any profs are married and whether they stay at 
> Hogwarts all summer, but I would love for some thorough person to sort 
> through references to "living" in offices and present a cogent theory 
> for us.
> 
> You could interpret the above not as "when Lupin had lived in this 
> room," but as "when Lupin had lived at Hogwarts" or even "in the 
> area," i.e. before he moved far away, but it seems a stilted way to 
> say it; one would be more likely to say "When Lupin taught here . . ." 
>  IMO the strong implication is that Lupin lives in his office, or at 
> least in a suite that includes his office.  His having tea things in 
> his office hints that way too, although I keep tea things in my office 
> and I'm not even English.  <g>  (I just caught the chipped mug, on 
> what must be my 10th reading of this scene.  Nice detail.)
> 
> This bit from PS/SS 16 also implies that professors live where their 
> offices are:
> 
>   "Where's Dumbledore's office?"
>   They looked around, as if hoping to see a sign pointing them in the 
> right direction.  They had never been told where Dumbledore lived, nor 
> did they know anyone who had been sent to see him.
> 
> On the other hand, where exactly =does= Dumbledore live?  His office 
> is just an office, and it's round, which strongly suggests that it's 
> in a tower and that there's no other room on that floor.  His living 
> quarters could be a floor above, or of course magically co-exist with 
> the contents of his office.
> 
> OTOH, Snape does not appear to live in the same place as his office.  
> In "The Egg and the Eye," he's walking the halls when he discovers 
> that someone has broken into it.  Not definitive, I grant you--perhaps 
> he was out for a cup of cocoa, or just a prowl, and returned to his 
> office-apartment to find someone had been in there--but it does 
> hint that his apartment is in one part of the castle and his office is 
> in another.  Once again I keenly feel the absence of my GF (but with 
> Anne and Simon generously doing research, who needs it?).
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>  "=Wow!=" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest 
>  dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a 
>  storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it 
>  again by a giant sea-monster.
>                            -HP and the Goblet of Fire
> --------------------------------------------------------- 
  I was thinking about the living conditions for Hagrid just the other day.  Why does he cook in his little cabin when he could just walk up to the school and eat with the students?  Are teachers not suppose to eat with the students unless its a "Feast" such as at Halloween or Chirstmas?  I am sure the house elves wouldnt mind making a few extra plates for the teachers!
 Rick




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed May 23 17:33:44 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:33:44 -0000
Subject: Errol
In-Reply-To: <9egr61+h2rh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egs9o+ftn1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19282

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rick824 at w... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> > Is anyone else concerned with the way the Weasleys treat Errol.  
Seems kinda cruel to keep using him when he keeps ending up 
unconscious after every delivery.                     Rick
> > 
> > Yeah, but I always thought they were just that poor. I'm 
surprised Errol is still alive, the poor bird. It's a shame the 
Weasleys wouldn't accept some of Harry's money. If it were me, I'd 
take it. He'd be my friend after all, and all too willing to help 
out. An owl is an essential, after all.
> > 
> > Vicky
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]  
>   Percy and Ron both have owls though.. wouldnt you think they 
could just use them?

IIRC in CoS, Ron says that he HAD to use Errol because Percy wouldn't 
let him use Hermes. Later we learn that Percy was using Hermes to owl 
Penelope Clearwater. I guess that since Hermes is Percy's owl, Molly 
and Arthur don't force him to use Hermes as the family owl. 

Ron got Pig at the end of PoA. Pig is a tiny owl. I doubt he can 
handle heavy packages.

I do think the Weasley's should retire poor Errol.

Milz




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 17:35:26 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid; Snape's tattling; DADA; Duelling Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0982@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <20010523173526.82006.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19283

>  Vicky again:
> > Hmmm, and another question: Why was Snape Lockheart's 
> > assistant for the dueling club? Does it say something about 
> > Snape's dueling abilities? I could see Snape getting into a 
> > dueling match, perhaps with Voldie.


He did it to show up Lockheart in front of the kids as a big-mouth
know-nothing with more hair than brains.  And did it too.  And if
Lockheart hadn't seen that glint in his eye when he did, they would
have gone on to a more intense duel and Dumbledore would have to drag
out that DADA job description for posting several months before the
end of the year.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 17:45:07 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:45:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Digest  895/Sirius/Snape
In-Reply-To: <9egn8k+5uvk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010523174507.22802.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19284

> Snape, Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore.  I love them all! 
> Too bad they 
> won't all be around by the end of the series. 
> Somehow, I just think 
> Sirius is going to be the only one to survive.  I
> don't know why I 
> feel that way and boy, I hope I'm wrong.  
> 
> Koinonia

I hope so too!  Although you may be right about
Dumbledore, in a kind of Obi-Wan Kenobi way.  But the
character I think has the biggest target on him is
literally the biggest character: Hagrid.  He's already
been shown to be surprisingly vulnerable: Riddle
framed him when he was a kid, he couldn't hold it
together at Buckbeak's trial, he was sent to Azkaban
again because of the Chamber of Secrets being
reopened...

Plus, Harry, Ron and Hermione would be galvanized by
the loss of Hagrid.  It would surely mean a turn in
the coming war.

Another possible loss might be one of the Weasleys.  I
mean, the family is so huge, how could they not lose
someone in a war?  My money is on one of the twins,
leaving the survivor feeling like a part of him was
forever missing...



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed May 23 17:52:25 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:52:25 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's meals was  Where profs. live
In-Reply-To: <9egrn7+pbdh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9egtcp+aqtc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19285

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rick824 at w... wrote:

>   I was thinking about the living conditions for Hagrid just the other day.  Why does he cook in his little cabin when he could just walk up to the school and eat with the students?  Are teachers not suppose to eat with the students unless its a "Feast" such as at Halloween or Chirstmas?  I am sure the house elves wouldnt mind making a few extra plates for the teachers!
>  Rick

	It's probably a courtesy to the other teachers at the staff table, 
who would just as soon not watch while Hagrid chows down a half-Giant 
size portion of stoat sandwiches. ;)

Pippin





From old_wych at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 17:54:40 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:54:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's eating habits
In-Reply-To: <9egrn7+pbdh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010523175440.1966.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19286


--- rick824 at webtv.net wrote:
> 
>   I was thinking about the living conditions for
> Hagrid just the other day.  Why does he cook in his
> little cabin when he could just walk up to the
> school and eat with the students?  Are teachers not
> suppose to eat with the students unless its a
> "Feast" such as at Halloween or Chirstmas?  I am
> sure the house elves wouldnt mind making a few extra
> plates for the teachers!
>  Rick
> 
> 
The teachers do normally eat in the Great Hall. I can
think of a scene where Prof. McGonnagal broke up a
confrontation between Harry and Draco at breakfast in
PS/SS. I believe JKR once said in an interview or chat
that Hagrid likes his own cooking. Maybe stoat
sandwiches, rock cakes, and teacle fudge that glues
your mouth shut are not on the Hogwarts menu.

Anne


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Wed May 23 17:54:40 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:54:40 -0400
Subject: Runes, Arithmancy, Divination, etc.
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0983@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19287

Sara asked:
 
> 	1) What Ancient Runes do you think Hermione has studied 
> in the class?

Jenny said:
> Norse and Celtic runes aren't that different (depends of course at 
> what time you compare them) but I don't think Egyptians get into this 
> class because hieroglyphs are so faraway from runes. They are based 
> on the same thought, yes, but I just don't think so. Or then there 
> must be chinese (sorry, my dictionary just failed me) letters too. 
> But then I would suspect the whole class would be named differently. 
> When I read this from the book, I thought immediately how 
> Scandinavians (I live in Finland) use to predict future with runes, 
> there was very much magic in them. So I just wondered what Hermione 
> thinks about that? Does she think it's just history?


Gwen says:
I think the Norse runes are definitely a subject of study, but I wouldn't
rule out the others. I also think Oggam (which is Celtic, and has no
relation to Norse runes) script is a possibility, since the Oggams were used
as a form of magic and star lore by the bards (c.f. Robin Williamson). I
don't necessarily think that Hieroglyphics or eastern pictograms should be
ruled out, just because they are also languages. After all, the runes in
western cultures also made up alphabets that were later used to begin
writing words, instead of using them alone as symbols. (And that's the
difference, really, between a rune and a letter: one also has a use as a
specific symbol, such as wealth, health, death, etc.; the other symbolizes a
sound, but has no intrinsic meaning of its own.) But there are many forms of
Runes both western and eastern, and they all have similar uses. One major
use of runes was divination. More on this later.


Sara again:
> 	2) What math form do you think Arithmancy is most like? 

And Joe responded:
> Daer Hermoine, I read that Arithmancy is the prediction of the future
through 
> numbers and number charts. However, though this was the actual use of the 
> subject a long time ago, this does not sound like something hermoine would

> like, I was under the impression that she hated divination in all forms. I

> agree however that the word Vector implies the use of (muggle?) numbers.


Now Gwen will state:

I agree with Joe, as well, that it seems too improbable to me that there are
actually 3 totally separate tracks of classes that include at their root
some form of divination. (I posted something to this effect before, but I
think it was during the Abanes debacle, and no one picked up on my subtle
attempt to change that subject.) Think about it: Runes get used to prophesy;
Divination seems to be about various methods of discerning possible futures;
and Arithmancy is yet another methodology based purely on math?

I don't think so. 

It seems more likely to me that the Ancient Runes does include certain early
alphabet systems, like Oggam, Norse runes (Tolkeinesque), and possibly runes
from non-human cultures, such as Giants or other intelligent species
(Goblins?), but focuses more on deciphering them than using them. We know
what Trelawney covers in divination, and presumably they will eventually
study things like Tarot and I-Ching, so she may also include a unit on using
runes.

By contrast, I propose that "Arithmancy" is not merely divination by numbers
(is that like paint by numbers?), but rather a study of more traditional,
so-called ceremonial magic. This is one area of magic we have NOT seen
represented in any other kind of class. It would be my guess that ceremonial
magic differs from other types of magic in that it combines two or more
components from those other tracks: a charm or incantation said over a
potion, for example, or a conjuration that requires specific items which can
be obtained through herbology or transfiguration. The "mathematical"
component comes into play because, generally, ceremonial or "sympathetic"
magic is highly precise. That is, the placement of the cauldron must be at
exactly 11 feet from the edge of the carefully traced sigil on the floor,
there must be exactly 7 candles on pedestals set precisely 5 feet apart in a
trapezoidal formation, and the final incantation must be uttered at the
exact moment that the lunar eclipse in Madagascar reaches its zenith....
Well, you get the idea. A simpler example is the ceremonial magic Wormtail
performs to bring Voldemort back in the graveyard.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Yes, I know there are definitions
out there which specify that Arithmancy is divination through numbers. But
as Joe points out, that's the kind of bunk Hermione sees through in
Trelawney; why on earth would she believe in it simply because it's a little
more scientific? More to the point, why would the school waste time on a
track of classes that is nearly duplicated in not one, but two other
classes? I think Rowling uses Arithmancy in a less literal connotation than
the sites we've found to explain its theories. I think this is the one place
at Hogwarts where students can learn about more traditional, complicated
forms of magery. When I read the name Vector, I immediately thought about
drawing angles on the floor as in arcane symbols and patterns of power
within which to set up complex and highly theatrical spells.

Any takers on this theory this time?

Back to Sara's questions:
> 	
> 	3) Could Professor Trelawney's first true prediction 
> have been about
> 	Voldemort?
> 	
> 	4) Does Dumbledore keep Trelawney around in hopes she will have
> 	predictions about Voldemort?

Yes and no. I think it's highly likely that her first true prediction was
about Voldemort, since it's obviously something that has come true before
now. But I don't think Dumbledore keeps her around _just_ in case she says
something more about Voldemort.

There's an incident in a comic book of which I am fond, called the Sandman,
where an envoy of Faerie is a guest in a royal household. While at dinner,
the character drops his fork on his plate, says something like, "Oh, no,"
and rises. A halo of light appears around him and he proceeds to
prophesy--in verse, no less.

The character, who is providing a first-hand narration, says of the incident
something like, "I don't prophesy often, but when I do, it's a doozey."

I think this is precisely the case with Sybill. She does have a true gift,
but no control over when it surfaces, and it seems that the only predictions
which she makes that are "true" predictions are the huge, earth-shatteringly
important ones. Thus, the question from chapter 8-9 about Lavender's bunny
falls under coincidence. Similarly, the thing with Neville breaking the
teacup also reminds me (as someone else paralleled) of the Oracle in the
Matrix: "What's really going to bake your noodle later is, would you have
broken it if I hadn't said anything."

It's also significant that she has no recollection of having channeled her
big prediction. So unlike the faerie in my earlier example, she doesn't seem
to have any forewarning that she's about to predict something important.
That's also typical of a lot of precognitives: for example, I have precog
dreams all the time. They mean nothing to me and I tend not to even remember
dreaming them until I find I am in the situation I dreamed. Then I get a
feeling of deja vu, realize I dreamed it, and move on. But it's rarely
anything important. Things like, "I had a dream the other day I was rooting
in my car for my umbrella, wearing this skirt," and there I am in the middle
of doing so. It doesn't mean anything, no children or small dogs will die if
I don't find the umbrella, but nevertheless, there's the dream. 

If she doesn't remember and she doesn't feel it coming on, the only way
anyone would know her track record is if they witnessed an episode, as Harry
did. 

Getting back to the answer (sorry I'm so rambling today), I don't think
Albus hopes she will make accurate predictions about Voldemort alone. There
are a number of things she could accurately predict, each of which might be
earth-shattering in its way. I think he keeps her because he knows that,
faulty though it might be, and buried under a ton of schtick, Trelawney
really does have the Sight, and that is of value to anyone who can see
beyond his nose the way Dumbledore can do.

Gwen



From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed May 23 17:54:41 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:54:41 +0100
Subject: Hagrid eating in his hut (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Errol - Jinxes/Curses - Sirius - Where profs. live)
In-Reply-To: <9egrn7+pbdh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEIHDJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 19288

Rick: <<<I was thinking about the living conditions for Hagrid just the other
day.  Why does he cook in his little cabin when he could just walk up to the
school and eat with the students?  Are teachers not suppose to eat with the
students unless its a "Feast" such as at Halloween or Chirstmas?  I am sure
the house elves wouldnt mind making a few extra plates for the teachers!>>>

I think I have a few ideas about this.

At the moment I am a student living in hall of residence. On each weekday
there is an evening meal cooked, which I can choose whether or not I eat. I
pay for those I eat and don't pay for those I don't eat. The food is very
good, the portions large. Yet even with this I have only eaten twice down
there this year.

Why?

I find the mealtime a little early. The food is served at 5:45 pm or earlier
and I prefer to eat later than this. I have just had my dinner now and it is
about an hour later. I usually start cooking a little before 6 pm.

Also I often do not want any of the two options that are being served. I would
guess that at Hogwarts there is some way of finding the menu in advance and
is, as Hagrid has, you have cooking facilities you can then pick and choose
over which meals you have and don't have.

The social side. Neither of the two friends of mine who live down in this
building eats in the hall often, if at all. They usually cook their own food
and so do I. Of course this reason is probably a little irrelevant seeing as I
would guess that Hagrid does not have anyone to eat with him down in his hut,
save possibly Fang.

The main one for me. I really enjoy cooking. I find it soothing and a good way
to relax after a long day working (ok own up - who laughed when I wrote
that?).

It provides a good break. If I cook my own food then dinner takes an hour or
so. If I get a meal from the dinning hall downstairs then the meal can last
only a few minutes, meaning that I return to any work I am doing in the
evening much quicker than if I have cooked myself and so do not get much rest
during a day.


I am sure some of the above insights into my life probably can provide the
answer to the puzzle.


Simon
--
A beautiful young woman ... "Oh, hello miss Centeno," Dr Branford smiled.
"Glad you could join us."
The girl smiled back at him. "Good to see you too, Simon." With an unwavering
wand, and hawk eyes still on the group, she moved to give him a long, forceful
kiss. Dr Branford's hand on her hip was the only additional contact they
made... Her voice was velvety soft and in complete contradiction to her
assaulting posture. - Krum Do I Love Chapter 10: The Pensieve by yael
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Wed May 23 18:19:28 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:19:28 -0000
Subject: Errol, Where profs. live
In-Reply-To: <9egrn7+pbdh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eguvg+bk9n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19289

Poor old Errol,  However, I think he enjoys life and doesn't want to 
retire.  He could easily just not fly off when they tied a letter to 
him.  As Owls are intelligent enough to understand who they are 
supposed to deliver to, I'm sure Errol also understands he's not 
supposed to fly long distances - so it's his own choice to do so.

As to where the teachers live, I'm sure they have suites of rooms with 
 their office as part of it (the 'office' may also be their living 
area too, so kettles etc would not be out of place).  This is how it 
works at old established British universities and I imagine public 
schools too.  Snape would not have his office ajoining, since it would 
smell akin to a chemistry lab most of the time so he gets a spare 
dungeon, as extra space.

Florence




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 19:19:39 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:19:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9ecpaf+qfki@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010523191939.12766.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19290


I know this post is rather out of left field, but I've been thinking
about *why* I like specific characters in the HP books. So I wrote it
all down and posted it, just 'cause I felt like it! <grins> It's a
little fluffy, forgive me...

Hermione Granger - My favorite character out of the entire canon. Not
only is she a voracious reader, but she loves to learn. She stands up
for her friends, and even isn't afraid to stand against them when she
feels strongly enough (ex: Firebolt incident, Scabbers). She is also
willing to do a lot for a friend (example: helping Hagrid with
Buckbeak's trial when she was already too busy to eat or sleep, helping
Neville with his homework and Potions). She's not dazzlingly beautiful
like a couple of other school witches (Fleur and Cho). I would love to
find a best friend like "Herm-own-ninny".

Ron Weasley - So sue me, I happen to have a thing for red hair. <grin>
I'm not overly thrilled about all of Ron's characteristics (he's aptly
shown the ability to abandon his friends), but I feel for the guy. It
must be tough being last in the line of the Weasley boys. I'm always
grinning when he's sarcastic and who couldn't love the first person to
befriend Harry?

Neville Longbottom - In my opinion, this is the student at Hogwarts
who's past comes closest to rivaling Harry's. And, also in my opinion,
it would be more horrible to have parents that don't recognize than to
have lost your parents. I see hidden depths in Neville and a deep
courage that he isn't even aware of. Sometimes I'm just itching to grab
the kid and give him a hug.

Lee Jordan - Who doesn't love his Quidditch commentaries? Who wasn't
laughing when McGonagall was trying to wrench the microphone away from
him? <giggles> Lee rocks and I will sorely miss him when he graduates
in the next book. I wish he had more significance in the books, but
alas I don't see it in the stars. <mysteriously looks off into the
distance>

Minerva McGonagall - I love her square glasses, her non-hesitation to
take away points from her own house, the way she says "Potter!". She
was the one to recognize that Harry would make a good Quidditch player,
but doesn't let her desire to win the Quidditch cup overrule her desire
to keep Harry safe (ex: the Firebolt fiasco). And the name "Minerva" is
just too cool!

Oliver Wood - Oliver's drive and determination amazes me. Yes, it
almost got his Seeker killed, but we'll ignore that. <grin> His
seriousness borders on comical. Who wasn't cheering along when
Gryffindor *finally* won the Quidditch cup? Who wasn't horribly glad
for Oliver? I sorrow that he's graduated and gone. Perhaps he'll make a
cameo in the later books?

Angelina Johnson, Katie Bell, Alicia Spinnet - These girls rock! Three
girls in a sport that seems to have a majority of boys? Wonderful!
Again, I'm sad that they'll be "gone" after the next book. Hm, maybe
Hooch will retire...

Gred and Forge Weasley - Oy, more red hair! And twins! And two boys
with a fabulous sense of humor and wit. Although, I was most annoyed
when they gave Harry the Marauder's Map (how *dare* they tempt him!) On
the whole, they're never failed to bring a smile to my face.

Ginny Weasley - I feel compassion for her, I really do. I mean, who
doesn't know what it's like to have a crush and worship someone from
afar? It's darn hard and to complicate matters, she's chosen the
esteemable Mr. H. Potter. Her blushing and stuttering has endeared me
to her from the start. Plus, she went to the Yule Ball with Neville!
Again, like Neville, I think this is a character that screams for
further development.

Justin Finch-Fletchley - Just 'cause I love the last
name...Finch-Fletchley. I know, it's not a real reason but my ear just
loves the sound!

~Amber


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 23 19:20:56 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:20:56 -0000
Subject: Lupin's return
In-Reply-To: <3B0B219B.BD3AFAA1@surfshop.net.ph>
Message-ID: <9eh2io+obg0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19291

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dianne Singson <dianne at s...> wrote:
> If Lupin comes back in Book 5, how will Harry & co. address him?
> "Professor Lupin" doesn't seem right; are they going to call him
> Remus, like Harry addresses Sirius? That sounds a bit awkward.
> Mr. Lupin? Moony? Sorry if I'm rambling.

I think he won't be teaching again(?) and it seems that Professor is
a Hogwarts title of respect for teachers (which the students usually
drop in private) - I had a quick look back, and even Gilderoy Lockhart
gets to be Professor although I don't think Hagrid does.  University
Professors keep their titles when they quit, but that's different.
So I think he's Mr. Lupin - or Dr. Lupin for all we know?

But if he stayed as close a friend to the Potters as Sirius Black did,
that relationship probably entitles Harry to call him Uncle Remus ;-)

(And Sirius can call him Brer Wolf?)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 19:30:56 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:30:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] L&J typical? - Sirius
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEBPCFAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20010523193056.97347.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19292

>>I don't think it was a sign of maturity but rather a display of
>>good intentions.  A young man in his early 20's with (probably)
very
>> little hands-on experience of babies would have a very steep
>> learning curve when it comes to raising one.
> 
> May I ask what's wrong with this? 

Uh, nothing?  To point out a difference is not to imply that one is
worse or better than the other.


>> Now all the fan-fic types can write in with all of Sirius'
>> experience with small children and animals he has been kind to 
>>during his adolesence.
 
> I have really no intention to offend anyone on this list, but I
> think the above remark is a bit offensive. 

Actually I meant it as a joke.  Obviously I should watch that impulse
as people might misinterpret it.  Sorry if anyone was offended.



__________________________________________________
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From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed May 23 19:27:43 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:27:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] L&J typical?  (bit o' FF) (was defense of Sirius and James)
References: <9efvld+8193@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012101c0e3be$719119c0$a64fd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19293


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>


> Ja.  On the typical side:  I certainly don't think shippers are nuts,
> but it does strain credulity when people think Harry is going to marry
> Ginny AND Ron is going to marry Hermione AND Fred is going to marry
> Angelina AND Fleur is going to marry Bill AND Neville is going to
> marry Crookshanks.  You know, I can believe in one or two
> childhood-friendship-->marriage relationships, but when there are too
> many in a single fanfic, I begin to wonder just what's in the Hogwarts
> water.

I agree wholeheartedly...what there aren't any other witches and wizards in
the world?

>
> If atypical, I don't think we need a reason why they were in such a
> rush.  Maybe it's as simple as: they were wildly in love and
> didn't see any reason to wait.  We can generate reasons that may be
> more interesting from the point of view of plot, such as they
> got pregnant (scandalous!) or with Voldy breathing down their necks
> they thought they'd better live fast (tragic!), and maybe any
> or all of them will prove true, but I don't think we need to explain
> it just because it's unusual.  Deviation from the norm is normal.

I know this is getting to be just an "I agree post"  but I do agree and
wanted to support you in the next statement:

>
> Amy Z   <--entered her lifetime relationship at 22.  ::belligerently::
> Got a problem with that?  <g>

Not in the least as I started dating my hubby at 19, and got married at 21.
So..yeah anyone got a problem wit dat?

carole








From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 20:11:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:11:10 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010523191939.12766.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eh5gu+d63o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19294

Three observations:

-Harry is not on the list--though you clearly adore him, given that 
your reasons for liking other characters often have to do with the 
way they relate to Harry.

-The only adult on the list is McGonagall.

-What does it mean when a self-described Crotchety Anti-Romantic "has 
a thing for red hair"?  Do I detect a chink in the A-R armor?

;-)
Amy Z




From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 20:42:57 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:42:57 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010523191939.12766.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eh7ch+8fsi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19295

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:

Well, if I was going to answer that I'd mainly be rambling on for 
pages about all the adult crowd. I think I might be the only reader 
so far who almost skips the part where it's too much Harry (or too 
much Quidditch!) to get to the more interesting chapters. 

Yeah, admit it- Snape is my favourite. Dumbledore, McGonagall, Lupin 
and Hermione follows though. The kids are in great lack of depth. I 
like characters with a interesting or mysterious past...


Glitter,

Lilith Morgana
who might be regretting this post in a few minutes.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed May 23 21:07:46 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:07:46 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010523191939.12766.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eh8r2+m7sb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19296

My favorite character, without even hesitating to think about it is 
Harry, Harry, Harry.  Not only do I feel for him having to deal with 
being without parents, but also being famous without wanting to be 
famous - and handling it all beautifully.  I admire the way he can 
keep his head in dire or unexpected situations.  I'm more the type to 
panic, yell, stutter, shake... certainly not think on my feet the way 
Harry can.  And green eyes with dark hair?  I've said this before, but 
if I was his classmate, I would have wanted to go the Yule Ball with 
Harry too.

I am also fascinated with Snape, and was so pleased to discover how 
many others are as well!  It's hard to wait for OoP to come out so I 
can find out what exactly it is he has to do for Dumbledore.  His 
mysterious past, nasty attitude yet not evilness about him keeps me 
thinking about him.

I could go on and on listing nearly every character and I why I love 
each one, but it would take me several hours, I'm sure, so I'll stop 
here.

--jenny from ravenclaw*********************************




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed May 23 21:18:47 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:18:47 -0000
Subject: Errol - Jinxes/Curses - Sirius - Where profs. live
In-Reply-To: <9egqeb+3643@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eh9fn+ekcl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19297

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> >Anyone wonder what JKR means by "lived there", ie.
> >does she mean Lupin literally lived in his office?
> >That just now struck me.
> 
> I have wondered this, and IIRC we kicked it around a bit during a 
> discussion of whether any profs are married and whether they stay 
at 
> Hogwarts all summer, but I would love for some thorough person to 
sort 
> through references to "living" in offices and present a cogent 
theory 
> for us.
> 

Passages such as this, from Chap 14 of PS/SS, "Professor McGonagall, 
in a tartan bathrobe and a hair net, had Malfoy by the ear" suggest 
that the some of the professors who head up a house might have their 
living quarters in their respective house. That would mean that Snape 
resides somewhere in Slytherin House rather than adjacent his office. 

  - CMC




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 21:26:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:26:38 -0000
Subject: Where profs. live
In-Reply-To: <9eh9fn+ekcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eh9ue+r9el@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19298

CMC wrote:

> Passages such as this, from Chap 14 of PS/SS, "Professor McGonagall, 
> in a tartan bathrobe and a hair net, had Malfoy by the ear" suggest 
> that the some of the professors who head up a house might have their 
> living quarters in their respective house. That would mean that 
Snape 
> resides somewhere in Slytherin House rather than adjacent his 
office. 

Makes sense to me.  Wouldn't it be great if they saw Snape in a 
hairnet?  The man could never strike fear into even Neville after 
that.

Snape's home could be in Slytherin or very close by =and= be adjacent 
to his office, since both are in the dungeons.

McGonagall appears not to live in any part of Gryffindor Tower that's 
accessed via the common room, because Harry has only seen her there a 
few times (PA 11).  She could live one door down from the Fat Lady, 
though.

Amy Z 




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 21:30:06 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:30:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9eh5gu+d63o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010523213006.55532.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19299


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Three observations:
> 
> -Harry is not on the list--though you clearly adore him, given that 
> your reasons for liking other characters often have to do with the 
> way they relate to Harry.

I've got an odd view on this. I *have* to like/love Harry because he's
the main character of the story and the default Hero. I couldn't not
like him because if I did, I would have to not like the series
(blasphemy!). But I *don't* have to like the other characters. I'm free
to have more of a choice on who I like. Therefore Harry wasn't on the
list because 

1) it goes without saying that I like him 

and 

2)if I am to be completely honest, I like some characters MORE than
him...like Hermione. <grin> The girl deserves her own series, I tell
you! Thank god for fanfic.

> -The only adult on the list is McGonagall.

I know. McGonagall is the only adult who I really, really like. I *am*
talking about favorites here! <grin> This is going to seem crazy to
everyone on the list but while I like Remus, Sirius, Dumbledore, the
Weasleys, etc, I don't love them to pieces. I've never understood the
Remus/Sirius craze (the whole "dead sexy" thing). The Weasley's are
nice but nothing about them makes me sit up and take notice. Snape
is..well...Snape! And Dumbledore seems a bit...dare I say it?...cliche.
<runs frantically away before list members Avada Kedavra her>

It is odd that I like the kids more than the adults. Perhaps it's
because the kids make me laugh more? As they say, the faster way to
become someone's friend is to make them laugh.

> -What does it mean when a self-described Crotchety Anti-Romantic "has
> a thing for red hair"?  Do I detect a chink in the A-R armor?

Ah, let me dig myself out of this proverbial hole. <pulls out shovel>
While I may enjoy the aesthetic value of red hair on a person, that
doesn't mean I want to have a romance with them or want them to have a
romance. It's like enjoying a pretty flower or a rainbow. <wipes
forehead> Whew! Hopefully I still get to keep my 100% Anti-Romantic
Membership Card(tm). The A-R society cannot afford to lose any members,
we're small enough as it is!

~Amber


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed May 23 21:42:59 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:42:59 -0000
Subject: Stouffer book review
Message-ID: <9ehat3+cbdb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19300

Here's a review of the newly published _Rah_and_the_Muggles_ by NK 
Stouffer.  Hold your nose:

http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/entertainment/ap798.htm

- Jim

"Moderation in all things." - Aristotle




From bohners at pobox.com  Wed May 23 21:44:14 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:44:14 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
References: <9eh8r2+m7sb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <022f01c0e3d1$85f6fc00$2698e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 19301

My favorite adult characters are Snape and Mad-Eye Moody, and my favorite of
the Trio is Ron.  One might think, based on that, that I'm drawn to fierce,
sarcastic, bad-tempered men:  but in fact I'm not.

What appeals to me about Snape is not his nastiness, but his vulnerability.
The touching way in which he defers to Dumbledore as he does to no one else,
and seems almost anxious for his approval and understanding:  you can see
there's a lot of history there, and that Snape knows he owes Dumbledore such
an enormous debt for giving him a second chance that he can't even begin to
repay him.  Also, his courage.  Snape is not afraid to take risks and to put
himself on the line for what he believes in.  When he pulled up his sleeve
and showed Fudge the Dark Mark, caring nothing for his reputation or what
might happen to him personally, I was smitten.  I came to the conclusion
that there is a LOT more to Snape -- in a positive way -- that we haven't
seen yet, and that JKR has been hinting at this all along:  which to me
makes him the most intriguing character of all.

I love Mad-Eye (yes, I know we haven't seen the REAL Mad-Eye yet, but
Crouch's impersonation must have been near-perfect or somebody would have
called him on it) because he's passionate -- even fanatical -- about the
truth, he's made huge sacrifices for what he believes in, and he doesn't
care if people think he's crazy.  But there's also a sort of rough
tenderness to him, a kindness underneath the tough exterior.  He reminds me
of a big, scarred polar bear.  Dangerous, but cuddly.

I love Ron because his dry sense of humour just kills me -- he always seems
to know how to sum up a situation in one phrase.  He's hot-headed and
thin-skinned, but if you've got him on your side, you can count on him to
defend and support you with everything he's got.  (That whole scene where
Ron tries to punish Draco for insulting Hermione and winds up belching slugs
just sums up Ron's character perfectly, I think.)  He's also touchingly
vulnerable:  he wants so much to be liked and accepted, to prove that he's a
person in his own right and not Just Another Weasley Kid.  I can understand
that, and I don't think it proves or even suggests that Ron will turn out
badly.  He's just going through a rough time, like a lot of us do, trying to
figure out who he is and where he fits in.  And when your best friend is
Harry Potter, The Boy Who Is Destined To Be In The Spotlight, that's pretty
tough sometimes.

All of which is not to say I don't love the other characters, particularly
Harry and Hermione, because I do.  But these are the three that stand out in
my mind.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 22:16:35 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:16:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010523213006.55532.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010523221635.99669.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19302

I think for what it's worth that my favorite character
as far as humor is concerned is Gilderoy Lockhart. 
Every scene he was in was so funny I was splitting my
sides at the same time I was trying to read to my kids
(and they were literally rolling around laughing--it
made it hard to get them to settle down at bedtime,
frankly).  Rita Skeeter is a close second for humor,
but Lockhart wins the LOL prize hands down.  (Of
course we're laughing at him, not with him.) Lockhart
was an inspired creation, and I couldn't help but
wonder whether her encounters with some Fleet Street
reporters after JKR became quite famous were
responsible for the creation of Rita.

__________________________________________________
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From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 22:27:27 2001
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:27:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010523221635.99669.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010523222727.72506.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19303

Well my boys and I have read all 4 of the Americanized
versions and areon the British ones, CoS. My favorites
are the Weasley Twins! They sure know how to bring in
the comic relief that is needed when things get really
tensed!

William likes all the characters, but it is the
animals he likes the best1
Especially Errol and all the owls.

James loves Hedwig!

Actually you could say she is also my other favorite!
She really knows how to show heremotions! Lockhart is
a real hoot! We loved it when he got zapped by Snape
in CoS!

But the twins steal the show!

Wanda










--- Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think for what it's worth that my favorite
> character
> as far as humor is concerned is Gilderoy Lockhart. 
> Every scene he was in was so funny I was splitting
> my
> sides at the same time I was trying to read to my
> kids
> (and they were literally rolling around laughing--it
> made it hard to get them to settle down at bedtime,
> frankly).  Rita Skeeter is a close second for humor,
> but Lockhart wins the LOL prize hands down.  (Of
> course we're laughing at him, not with him.)
> Lockhart
> was an inspired creation, and I couldn't help but
> wonder whether her encounters with some Fleet Street
> reporters after JKR became quite famous were
> responsible for the creation of Rita.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
> prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May 23 22:31:05 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:31:05 -0700
Subject: Lupin, Once and Future Professor
In-Reply-To: <9egnq1+j1d1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523152445.02ef8390@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19304

At 04:17 PM 5/23/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>As for when Lupin returns, I think Harry will keep calling him
>Professor Lupin unless Lupin urges him to do otherwise.

It says, "Professor R. J. Lupin," on his briefcase.  That seems
to me he is a professional Professor, rather than someone who
was "doing Dumbledore a favor" like Moody.  So I think Harry
will still say, "Professor Lupin."  I wonder what Lupin has
been doing the past year... I hope he found another teaching
post and hasn't been flipping stoat burgers in some dive
in Diagon Alley.

Also, anyone have any idea what the "J" stands for?



                         -- Dave




From dasienko at email.com  Wed May 23 22:50:11 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:50:11 -0000
Subject: Harry as a martyr? [was Re: Average Harry]
In-Reply-To: <9e7j93+oa5i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eher3+dao2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19305

:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> > At 09:12 PM 5/17/01 -0400, dragonsbloodmoon at a... wrote:
> Well, a good possibility is the whole idea where Harry may CHOOSE 
to 
> sacrifice his own life to save the rest of the word from 
Voldemort's 
> horrors, but may, by other magical circumstances that Harry 
typically 
> does not understand until the speech afterwards, survive anyhow. 
This 
> way, his character is preserved by doing the right thing & willing 
to 
> give his life, without the media horror of Harry actually dying.
> 
> It would probably feel like a cop-out to many people, but unless 
she 
> handles it in an incredibly spiritual manner to make things 
> feel "right", I don't think Harry will die.
> 
> Back to Lurking,
> Heather :-)


This scenario follows the  definition of HERO that I learned many 
years ago in a folklore class . I think that there were  about seven 
hallmarks of a hero. I don't remember them all but those that I do 
remember are:
A hero has:
*an "unnatural birth" this can usually be extended to an unnatural 
occurence early in life (Harry meets/defeats Voldemort).
*a hidden Childhood ( life with the Dursleys)
* discovers his uniqueness (The letter from Hogwarts).
* performs "magical" deeds. See PS/SS, etal.
* confronts an enemy/battles to the death.
* There are rumors and tales that  the hero isn't dead
* There are tales that the hero will return again when the people are 
in great need.

Harry seems to be fulfilling the first couple of hallmarks, I guess 
that I'll have to wait and see if Harry fits this definition of a 
hero.





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 22:49:37 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:49:37 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters: Lupin, Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <20010523213006.55532.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eheq1+3ra4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19306

Amber wrote:
 
> I've never understood the
> Remus/Sirius craze (the whole "dead sexy" thing). 

::draws herself up in an attempt to look dignified::  Now, not all of 
us Lupinlovers think the man is sexy.  Sexy is not the point.  I don't 
want to sleep with the man, I want to talk to him.  I get the sense 
that we would understand each other.  I love Harry--if you ask me my 
favorite character, I have to say "You mean besides Harry?"; he is 
after all the one I know best.  But if one person could walk out of 
the books to be a friend and kindred spirit, it would be Remus.  (Of 
course, I don't want him to walk out of the books; I want to walk into 
them.)

> And Dumbledore seems a bit...dare I say it?...cliche.
> <runs frantically away before list members Avada Kedavra her>

Amber, I repeatedly find myself admiring your daring candor.  No one 
wants to spend a lifetime in Azkaban, so you're safe from AK, but you 
might well receive an envelope full of Bubotuber Pus--or worse, if 
Hagrid hears you.

I think I know what you mean.  However, I think the big D is saved 
from cliche by his completely wacky sense of humor.  I am one person 
who believes that the Chamber of Chamber Pots is the invention of 
Dumbeldore's frighteningly fertile brain.  Even on an errand as solemn 
as the one in PS/SS 1, and discussing something as sobering as 
Voldemort's power, he makes that crack about the earmuffs (no, I don't 
believe Madam Pomfrey really said that, either).  You won't catch 
Gandalf making remarks like that.  I say that not to detract from 
Gandalf or JRRT, both of whom I love, but to point out that Dumbledore 
is his very own variation on the Wise, Kind, Bearded Ancient Wizard.

Amy Z
who is going through her sigs in alphabetical order, so it's pure 
chance that this one is

------------------------------------
 "Yeah, Dumbledore's barking, all 
 right," said Ron proudly. 
    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Wed May 23 23:23:54 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:23:54 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
Message-ID: <bc.14eb65d4.283da08a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19307

In a message dated 5/22/2001 12:01:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com writes:


> I don't think that the Hufflepuff qualities should make people think they
> are lower than the other houses. But I thought about it and I realized
> that you could solve the problem sort of like a puzzle

You can also look at the differences between Cedric and Harry when faced with 
the dragons. Harry boldly mounted his broom and flew right at the dragon. At 
times, he was just inches from being scorched. Cedric, OTOH, had that 
complicated transfiguration spell with the rock/dog, and still had to run 
towards the dragon (a combination of both hard work and courage).

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Wed May 23 23:27:47 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:27:47 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
Message-ID: <ac.157455ae.283da173@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19308

In a message dated 5/23/2001 5:54:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bohners at pobox.com writes:

<<  I came to the conclusion
 that there is a LOT more to Snape -- in a positive way -- that we haven't
 seen yet, and that JKR has been hinting at this all along:  which to me
 makes him the most intriguing character of all. >>

At the risk of incurring the wrath of those open-minded enough to see beyond 
the characters as they occur to our protagonist, I must admit that I abhor 
Snape. Loathe him. Despise him. Detest him. To me, he occurs as an insecure, 
petty and vindictive man who takes out his own frustrations on those weaker 
than he is. Look at the way he tortures poor Neville -- completely 
indefensible, especially since GoF we know the sacrifice Neville's family has 
endured. And the remark he made to Hermione when she got caught in Draco and 
Harry's curse-wake and her teeth grew out of control: "I don't see a 
difference." Incredibly cruel. He's biased toward members of his own House, a 
trait not shown by the other Heads of Houses (at least not that I have seen), 
which I infer may be why Slytherin won the House Cup every year until Harry 
showed up -- with Snape unfairly taking away points from other Houses and 
awarding them to Slytherin without merit, and no other Head of House willing 
to stoop to such levels, his House was a guaranteed shoo-in.

I imagine a young Snape at Hogwarts as a combination of Draco and Pettigrew 
-- nasty and self-righteous so that he'd clash with James and the gang, but 
jealous enough of their friendship and the admiration they received at 
Hogwarts, to trail them around in order to spy and snitch. I don't think 
there has to be more to the hatred between Snape and Sirius -- I imagine that 
if Draco and Harry met under similar circumstances, their loathing would be 
just as palpable. 

Finally, has this question ever been debated and resolved:  yes, Snape 
prevented Quirrell from killing Harry in SS. But why didn't he run to 
Dumbledore as soon as he realized what Quirrell was up to? I don't think we 
can infer good motives from that one.

Jami 



From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 23 23:41:41 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters: Lupin, Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <9eheq1+3ra4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010523234141.96167.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19309


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ::draws herself up in an attempt to look dignified::  Now, not all of
> us Lupinlovers think the man is sexy.  Sexy is not the point.  I
> don't want to sleep with the man, I want to talk to him.
<snip>

Ah, so there is another side to the following! <grin> I guess I was a
bit presuming about the 'dead sexy' comment. Apologies all around!

> Amber, I repeatedly find myself admiring your daring candor.  No one 
> wants to spend a lifetime in Azkaban, so you're safe from AK, but you
> might well receive an envelope full of Bubotuber Pus--or worse, if 
> Hagrid hears you.

I am terrible, aren't I? Well, I merely blame the list for creating an
environment in which I feel I can express my opinions freely. This is
such an open, non-insulting list that I feel completely at home.
Everyone (moderators and members, both lurking and active) deserves
warm fuzzies for being mature, inclusive, and polite. And dizzingly
fun!

> I think I know what you mean.  However, I think the big D is saved 
> from cliche by his completely wacky sense of humor.  I am one person 
> who believes that the Chamber of Chamber Pots is the invention of 
> Dumbeldore's frighteningly fertile brain.  Even on an errand as
> solemn as the one in PS/SS 1, and discussing something as sobering as

> Voldemort's power, he makes that crack about the earmuffs (no, I
> don't believe Madam Pomfrey really said that, either).  You won't
> catch Gandalf making remarks like that.  

<purses lips> Very good point. I'll have to give more thought as to
what I think of Dumbledore. Another good thing about the list: diverse
views on HP. Just when you think you can only see a character one way,
someone comes along and proves you wrong!

~Amber
(Who's in a very "Kumbaya" mood right now...)


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 24 00:16:45 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:16:45 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
Message-ID: <fe.6c1fe06.283daced@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19310

In a message dated 5/23/2001 3:37:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk writes:


> >Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me - "
> >
> > and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen pounced."
> 
> If there was only one legal move that the knight could make at that point,
> and the chess board obeyed the ordinary rule that one a player has touched a
> piece they have to move it, even if they suddenly realise that they have
> made a mistake, the queen would be legally entitled to take Ron the instant
> he moved, though it is better etiquette (and psychology) to wait till the
> piece actually lands on the disputed square.

Or perhaps he was at the end of his move. He could have already moved two 
over and one up, or three over, with the last step being it. I can't double 
check this theory at the moment, so I'm sorry if this doesn't make any sense.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com  Thu May 24 00:45:51 2001
From: dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com (dragonsbloodmoon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:45:51 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: L&J typical?  
Message-ID: <4f.c2d52bf.283db3bf@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19311

In a message dated 5/23/2001 2:13:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
pbnesbit at msn.com writes:


> My parents were married when he was 18 and she was 17.  There was a 
> small thing called World War II going on (this was in 1942).  Yes, 
> they were wildly in love (& stayed so until my dad died 4 years ago) 
> and because of the war, they didn't want to wait.  Maybe the same 
> held true for Lily & James.  Perspectives change when there's a war 
> on.
> 

My parents married at 20, at the height of Vietnam. My dad was in the Air 
Force.

Toby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 24 00:56:29 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:56:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stouffer book review
In-Reply-To: <9ehat3+cbdb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523175221.02efa780@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19312

At 09:42 PM 5/23/01 +0000, Jim Flanagan wrote:
>Here's a review of the newly published _Rah_and_the_Muggles_ by NK
>Stouffer.  Hold your nose:
>
>http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/entertainment/ap798.htm

Is it true (as on her the character profiles page) that there's a "Lady 
Catherine"
in the book?  If so, I hope at some point it's reviewed by a Jane Austen fan!



                         -- Dave




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu May 24 01:40:44 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:40:44 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters: Lupin, Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <9eheq1+3ra4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ehoqs+6mnb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19313

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Amber wrote:
>  
> > I've never understood the
> > Remus/Sirius craze (the whole "dead sexy" thing). 
> 
> ::draws herself up in an attempt to look dignified::  Now, not all 
of 
> us Lupinlovers think the man is sexy.  Sexy is not the point.  I 
don't 
> want to sleep with the man, I want to talk to him.  I get the sense 
> that we would understand each other.  I love Harry--if you ask me 
my 
> favorite character, I have to say "You mean besides Harry?"; he is 
> after all the one I know best.  But if one person could walk out of 
> the books to be a friend and kindred spirit, it would be Remus.  
(Of 
> course, I don't want him to walk out of the books; I want to walk 
into 
> them.)


Well, I want to talk with him first, *then* go to bed with him.  To 
me, Remus does qualify as sexy.  Sexy is intelligence, kindness, 
caring; not necessarily drop-dead handsome looks.  
> 
> > And Dumbledore seems a bit...dare I say it?...cliche.
> > <runs frantically away before list members Avada Kedavra her>

(Snip)
> 
> > I think I know what you mean.  However, I think the big D is 
saved 
> from cliche by his completely wacky sense of humor.  I am one 
person 
> who believes that the Chamber of Chamber Pots is the invention of 
> Dumbeldore's frighteningly fertile brain.  Even on an errand as 
solemn 
> as the one in PS/SS 1, and discussing something as sobering as 
> Voldemort's power, he makes that crack about the earmuffs (no, I 
don't 
> believe Madam Pomfrey really said that, either).  You won't catch 
> Gandalf making remarks like that.  I say that not to detract from 
> Gandalf or JRRT, both of whom I love, but to point out that 
Dumbledore 
> is his very own variation on the Wise, Kind, Bearded Ancient Wizard.

A Wise, Kind, Bearded Ancient Wizard with a Sense of Humour.  How 
refreshing.  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker

> 
> Amy Z
> who is going through her sigs in alphabetical order, so it's pure 
> chance that this one is
> 
> ------------------------------------
>  "Yeah, Dumbledore's barking, all 
>  right," said Ron proudly. 
>     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
> ------------------------------------




From margdean at erols.com  Thu May 24 01:34:56 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:34:56 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where profs. live
References: <9eh9ue+r9el@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B0C6540.991B3536@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19314

Amy Z wrote:
> 
> CMC wrote:
> 
> > Passages such as this, from Chap 14 of PS/SS, "Professor McGonagall,
> > in a tartan bathrobe and a hair net, had Malfoy by the ear" suggest
> > that the some of the professors who head up a house might have their
> > living quarters in their respective house. That would mean that
> > Snape resides somewhere in Slytherin House rather than adjacent his
> > office.
> 
> Makes sense to me.  Wouldn't it be great if they saw Snape in a
> hairnet?  The man could never strike fear into even Neville after
> that.

*giggle*  Oh, don't be silly, Amy.  We know that Snape never
washes his hair, so why on earth would he be wearing a hairnet? 
:)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Thu May 24 02:17:14 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 02:17:14 -0000
Subject: Lupin vs Sirius  (was Lupin's character..)
In-Reply-To: <OE29g3bHlwWkVNqXSvU00001f29@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ehqva+rglg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19315

Perhaps Lupin is referred to as Lupin and Sirius as Sirius because 
the children had Lupin as a professor. Sirius has never been a 
professor and, as Harry's godfather, has more of a personal 
relationship with them.  Lupin is more reserved, probably as a 
combination of being a werewolf and the fact he is their teacher.  
Since he is no longer their teacher, they might possibly be allowed 
to call him Lupin, but do they feel comfortable with that?  C'mon, 
can you imagine calling your eighth grade teacher by his/her first 
name, even after you're no longer a student?  

Just my 2 knuts

Trina, free for the summer! 




From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May 24 02:25:08 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 02:25:08 -0000
Subject: Harry as a martyr? [was Re: Average Harry]
In-Reply-To: <9eher3+dao2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ehre4+3o2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19316

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dasienko at e... wrote:
> 
> This scenario follows the  definition of HERO that I learned many 
> years ago in a folklore class . I think that there were  about seven 
> hallmarks of a hero. I don't remember them all but those that I do 
> remember are:
> A hero has:
> *an "unnatural birth" this can usually be extended to an unnatural 
> occurence early in life (Harry meets/defeats Voldemort).
> *a hidden Childhood ( life with the Dursleys)
> * discovers his uniqueness (The letter from Hogwarts).
> * performs "magical" deeds. See PS/SS, etal.
> * confronts an enemy/battles to the death.
> * There are rumors and tales that  the hero isn't dead
> * There are tales that the hero will return again when the people 
are  in great need. Harry seems to be fulfilling the first couple of 
hallmarks, I guess  that I'll have to wait and see if Harry fits this 
definition of a  hero.

Ah - interesting that you brought that up!  I, too have thought about 
Harry in the Hero role, but there is more to the Hero than what you 
listed, although Harry fits that definition quite nicely.

I'm also relying on my memory here (even though I taught this to my 
high schoolers in October), so please forgive me if I mess up a bit -

Harry can fit into two kinds of heroes: folk and myth (I think that's 
what they're called).  He has all of the qualities you mentioned, but 
he also has the "sidekicks" (Ron and Hermione) and the many 
"sidetracks" that deter him from his quest, which is, of course, to 
defeat good ol' Voldie.  Quidditch, Cho, and the Tri Wizard Tournament 
are just a few of the things that draw his attention away from his 
quest to destroy Voldemort.

Eventually, as the hero, Harry will also have to make some major self 
discoveries (uh, more than the "you're a wizard" revelations), which 
he already is, and he will most likely bring something back from the 
quest that is Big - peace, new powers for all wizards(?)... something 
like that.  Of course, if Harry *gasp* dies, then he will have left 
behind his legacy and something of himself that is more than just mere 
memory.

Harry, I believe, clearly exhibits the characteristics of the folk and 
mythic hero - and he won't disappoint us.

--jenny from ravenclaw****************************




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 24 02:56:33 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 02:56:33 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #3 Results
Message-ID: <9eht92+dkll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19317

The Make Your Own Spell Contest was really a lot of fun.  I received 
a really imaginative bunch of spells.  Thanks very much to all our 
spell makers:  (My comments are in between the //*\\ lines.)

-- Joywitch

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
A lot of the spells had to do with cleaning.  It seems to me that 
these spells are also needed in the wizarding world.  I mean, if they 
had some of these cleaning spells they wouldn't have to enslave the 
poor house-elves.  Kristin has the right idea:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

The first one has to do with house cleaning. I'm not very domestic, 
to say the least, and if I had a spell that would straighten up the 
house when it gets out of hand would definitely come in handy. So 
wave your wand and say:

			"Mundus Domicilium"

The next spell has to do with cleaning out the cat litter box. It 
would be really nice to wave a wand and the box is clean.

			"Mundus Felis Buxus"

? Kristin 

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
Jamieson, who suffers from artistic angst, wants this spell:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

I guess it could be a Charm really; something to help me brighten my 
spirits whenever I feel I'm not worth much. I could use it when I 
felt blue, or red, or purple. Or whenever I need to remind myself 
that I am worth something.

Specialus Charm

I am the Special One
I am the Wise One
I am the Desired One
For I am Beautiful

? Jamieson

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
What I wouldn't do for this spell.  Sigh.
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

For my submission, I came up with an spell imperative for any witch 
(or wizard) who has their eye on certain someone who never notices 
them:

Just point your wand at them and say firmly: "Basavi!" and they will 
be immediately overcome by an urge to kiss you. Useful in any 
situation.

(Note: Basavi is the latin verb for kiss, read in the sense of 'you 
kiss me')

? Sara 

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
A spell that any parent would like to have from Danette:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

I just saw this on my list digest and had a spell come to mind 
immediately.  How about a child locater spell?  Cast it on the child 
an no matter where the child goes you always know where the child is 
and what they are doing.  Be a great help in keeping a kid out of 
mischief anyway.

? Danette

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
A terrific bunch of spells from Amber, although personally it 
wouldn't be the telemarketers' phones that I would render 
inoperable.  And I think I speak for the whole group when I say that 
we would be happy to donate several body parts each, perhaps even 
major organs, if we could just have spell #3:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

Spell #1: Telemarketers Curse

I hate telemarketers with an all-consuming passion.  I would take out 
my wand, tap my phone(s) and mutter "Aduro Salutor Vexo."  The spell 
would be able to tell if a telemarketer is calling (because magic is 
cool like that!), stop the call, and render the telemarketer's phone 
inoperable! BWAHAHAHA!  Take THAT!

Spell #2: Cool Bubble

I live in Florida and it is currently very hot and muggy.  While I 
love the heat, sometimes it is a bit much.  Therefore, when going 
outside, I would take out my wand, tap my head, and mutter "Frigus."  
A cool bubble would surround me; say goodbye to sweat dripping down 
my back!  Variations could probably be performed on this to air-
condition an apartment or house.

Spell #3: JKR Writing Charm

This is perhaps my favorite.  I, just like everyone the list, want 
the fifth JKR book NOW. If I were a witch, I would take out a pen, 
tap it with my wand and mutter "Scribo Accelerando Rowling."  I would 
then send the pen to JKR. If she were to use it, she would write with 
inhuman speed and clarity, thus pumping out the book by the end of 
June. If the publishers were to get their butts in gear, we could 
have the fifth installment by fall!

Spell #4: Book Charm

I have WAY too many books on my bookshelves. It'd be nice that 
instead of buying more bookshelves, I could shrink the books. 
Therefore, I would tap the books in questions with my trust wand and 
mutter "Decresco Libre". Boom, the books would be tiny and I would 
have more room to buy more books! <giggle>

Of course, I would have tiny books then, but a simple spell could 
restore them to their normal size. (Maybe "Augmentum Libre"?)

? Amber

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
A simply beautiful spell from Joy:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

I sure could use an "Interium Revelosa" charm.  It could be used when 
meeting new people, to enable them to get to know you without all of 
those nasty preconceived notions (race, religion, weight, disability, 
hair color, etc) getting in the way.  Only the true essence of your 
personality would be visible.

~Joy~

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
A handy spell from our legal department:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

Limanate is a very useful spell at home or at the office - one uses 
it by pointing one's wand towards a pile of papers and saying the 
spell-word. The papers then magically fly into the correct files in 
one's desk/cabinet/stack of folders. It is useful in the office to 
eliminate large piles of papers from one's desk, and useful at home 
to put things like Gringotts statements, progress reports from 
Hogwarts, bills from WarlockCard International and fees for one's 
Apparating License, in their proper places.  The Malfoys reportedly 
have one servant who is a specialist in this charm, and who spends 
about three hours per day Liminating the family paperwork.

? Heidi Howard Tandy

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
Very useful bunch of spells from Parker:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

A Cool Down potion for all of us southerners who battle high heat and 
humidity daily throughout the summer.  Not sure what it would contain 
except for ice in liberal (*extremely liberal*) amounts.

A "Hurricanus Goawayus" Spell for all of us living in hurricane 
country.  This spell would be performed with a wand and would create 
a barrier on the Atlantic, Pacific, and Gulf coasts so that a 
hurricane wouldn't even come close.

A MissMary repelling hex that would make her stay out of my shop on 
Mondays.   This would be performed with a wand and would allow 
visitors to enter my shop and talk to me, but would keep her outside 
where she belongs.

A JustDoIt Spell for management that effects change at the rate of 
molasses in January in the North.  This would be performed with a 
wand and would make management do all of those things that have been 
on the drawing board for a long time.  (Particularly good for those 
of us in Living History.)

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
Another, particularly useful, cleaning potion from Mecki.  I'd buy it!
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

I really need a "totally clean" potion. You clean your whole house, 
the dishes, washing, even the kids once with this potion. Everything 
stays clean!!  The potion lasts a whole year.  This means the "big 
spring clean-up" is the only one you have to do all year!!

? Mecki

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
Great spell; particularly appreciated by us pun-lovers:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

*Helium* is a spell that not only cures small injuries and ailments, 
but is also known for causing the receiver of the treatment to speak 
in a high-pitched voice for several hours.

? Jana Tucker

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*
Craig has developed some spells that the Moderators would probably 
kill to get their hands on, plus another spell for JKR:
*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

"Magic for moderators"

Dulcidico!
- Calms all hostile threads.

Aperilatendi!
- If this were a Lockhart spell, it would be "Lurkijerki spekitomi!"

Radextrico!
- Hunts down and checks the validity of any rumor on the group.

Saepistupidus!
- Hides the group from fly-by-night posters.

Quisquilia Atterosa!
- Causes off-topic threads to shrivel up.

And, of course, the one we all would like to see:

Auctrix accelerandia! - removes all obstacles from JKR's way so she 
can write 50x faster

....Craig, Latin translations on demand :^)

Thanks again, spell-makers!!!!




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Thu May 24 03:19:33 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (alyeskakc)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:19:33 -0600
Subject: Fave Characters: Lupin, and Lupin's Middle initial
Message-ID: <MEEOLIKFMFJHEDLIANECMEAPCAAA.alyeskakc@netzero.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19318


Amber wrote:

> I've never understood the
> Remus/Sirius craze (the whole "dead sexy" thing).

Amy Z Wrote:

>::draws herself up in an attempt to look dignified::  Now, not all of
>us Lupinlovers think the man is sexy.  Sexy is not the point.  I don't
>want to sleep with the man, I want to talk to him.  I get the sense
>that we would understand each other.  I love Harry--if you ask me my
>favorite character, I have to say "You mean besides Harry?"; he is
>after all the one I know best.  But if one person could walk out of
>the books to be a friend and kindred spirit, it would be Remus.  (Of
>course, I don't want him to walk out of the books; I want to walk into
>them.)

Parker Wrote:

> Well, I want to talk with him first, *then* go to bed with him.  To
>me, Remus does qualify as sexy.  Sexy is intelligence, kindness,
>caring; not necessarily drop-dead handsome looks.



Of course Remus is my fave character and I agree with both Amy and Parker.
Remus is sexy in that he is intelligent, kind, good hearted, etc. I think
Remus is also ruggedly handsome not "dead sexy" like Sirius. Looks don't
always make one sexy it's also a person's personality and how they carry
themselves and interact with others. I'm definitely with Parker on
the get to know him then crack that famous self control <bg>. If only I
could figure out how to get into the books, where's a holodeck when you
need one <vbg>.



Dave Wrote:
Also, anyone have any idea what the "J" stands for?

 I've tried several different "J" names but the only one I think sounds
good to me is James. Remus James Lupin of course that's only a guess and
the "J" may not stand for anything.



 Cheers,
        Kristin


********************************************
"Id guess shes a banshee," Lupin whispered back. "And have I mentioned
that when there are pretty girls around, you suck at undercover? Now shut
up." -DS 13

54% Obsessed with Harry Potter
List Mom of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/All_Things_Potter


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From larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 03:46:50 2001
From: larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com (larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 03:46:50 -0000
Subject: Lupin's return
In-Reply-To: <9egl65+4h80@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ei07a+j1q0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19319

I can really relate to this:
I have a band teacher, steven Guerra, who I've gotten to be real good 
friend's with and I know his best friend,Scott grant because HE's my 
trombone teacher. IN school, its respectful to call any teacher Mr or 
Mrs. But when I'm shooting the shit wor jammin with any of these guys 
after school or out of school, it has be "Steve" or"Scott" it 
decreases the awkwardness significantly, by not really showing 
disrespect because you show it to them at school, a place where 
students are barred from teachers by social levels, but a 
familiarity, through the first name outside of school.
      the rarely seen, Larry Nguyen


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" <tmayor at m...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dianne Singson <dianne at s...> wrote:
> > > I was just wondering, if Lupin comes back in Book 5, how will
> > > Harry & co. address him? 
> > 
> > Unfortunately, having pointed this out, I have no answer to
> > suggest.  I think there would be much awkwardness and Harry & Co.
> > would wind up calling him nothing specific at all or Professor,
> > even though it's no longer appropriate, just because there *is*
> > this reserve that precludes a first-name basis with him.
> 
> Let me draw a "real-life" parallel....
> 
> When I was an exchange student in Germany as a senior in high 
school,
> my host family had me assigned ahead of my arrival to a tenth grade
> class at the local Gymnasium (college-prep high school, lyc?e).
> This was partly so that I wouldn't be overwhelmed by the German 
> spoken in my classes, and partly because they didn't want to pay my
> bus fare, which was subsidized for students up through tenth grade.
> 
> However, my German was the best in my cohort of exchange students,
> and I had already taken college-level classes in other subjects.
> Accordingly, I dickered successfully to get raised to an eleventh
> grade class (although the records continued to show tenth grade).
> 
> Several of my teachers recognized the awkwardness of my situation.
> One of them even offered that I was more of a colleague than a 
student
> (rather overblown on his part).  In turn, he suggested I use his
> first name with him as well as the familiar form of "you" (Du).
> 
> This only lasted a few days.  In class, calling him by his first 
name
> and using "Du" drew irritated stares from the other students.  I
> couldn't deal with them thinking there was something wrong with me,
> so, to his consternation, I went back to calling him "Herr Koops" 
and
> using "Sie" like the other students did.
> 
> I think the situation would be similar here.  They may be on a 
first-
> name basis with Remus in private, but in the classroom, it could 
only
> be Professor Lupin.
> 
> ....Craig




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu May 24 03:51:33 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 23:51:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: NYTimes.com Article: An Improbable Sequel: Harry Potter and the Ivory Tower 
Message-ID: <20010524035133.2417A58A4D@email5.lga2.nytimes.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19320

This article from NYTimes.com 
has been sent to you by schlobin at aol.com.

Hilarious comments about how Professor Tolkien was seen as "less than serious" because he drank beer and sang Viking songs in the original......

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An Improbable Sequel: Harry Potter and the Ivory Tower


By STEPHEN KINZER

 

ALAMAZOO, Mich.  Millions of books after Harry Potter became the
most beguiling wizard of the modern age, scholars have welcomed him
into the temple of Muggle academia.

 "If you look closely, you see a lot of Arthurian components," said
Heather Arden, a professor at the University of Cincinnati who has
drawn parallels between J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories and
classic medieval legends. "So much of it fits into wonderful
ancient patterns." 

 That a best-selling children's book would be the subject of
scholarly attention isn't a surprise; after all, academics have
delved into the finer points of everything from Martha Stewart to
table salt. But this engagement with the modern world is a hallmark
of the International Congress on Medieval Studies, a yearly
conference held at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, which
attracted Ms. Arden and about 3,000 other scholars earlier this
month. For an academic conference it is remarkably unstuffy. There
is no vetting of papers, and a platform is open to almost anyone
with an idea.

 One of the big ideas this year was the persistence of medieval
archetypes in popular culture. In addition to Harry Potter, the
scholars discussed the Hobbit series of J. R. R. Tolkien, which is
considered to have been modeled on themes from medieval literature,
as well as the continuing resonance of medieval figures ranging
from Merlin to Thomas Aquinas. There were a dozen papers about Joan
of Arc, and half a dozen about that equally extraordinary woman,
Hildegard von Bingen.

 "We're talking about models and frames of reference," said Paul E.
Szarmach, director of the Kalamazoo-based Medieval Institute, which
organizes the congress. "If you take a psychological view, there
must be medieval bits in the template of human understanding. We're
putting ourselves back into the Arthurian story. That accounts for
the popularity of Tolkien and Rowling."

 For medievalists, the patterns and ideas from the Middle Ages 
the period that stretches from the end of the fifth century to the
middle of the 15th in Europe  are still valuable tools for
understanding today's world.

 Jonathan Gil Harris of Ithaca College, for example, gave a dinner
speech comparing Hannibal Lecter, the most famous cannibal in
modern cinema, to Shakespeare's similarly inclined warrior, Titus
Andronicus.

 "He wasn't working in a vacuum," Mr. Harris said. "Especially in
his early plays, he was drawing on dramatic conventions that can be
traced back to medieval forms of theater. The Hannibal Lecter films
use this form that Shakespeare transmitted, which is to keep
pushing something in your face until you say, `This is too much.' "

 Shakespeare is not normally considered a medieval figure, but Mr.
Harris and a handful of other scholars have managed to establish
what he called "a Shakespeare Bantustan" at the Kalamazoo
conference, specializing in medieval influences on Shakespeare's
work.

 One of the favorite subjects this year was Tolkien, himself a
medievalist. This marks a turnaround of sorts for Tolkien, an
Oxford philologist who left several academic projects unfinished
but created one of the 20th century's most beloved fantasy lands,
Middle Earth, populated by Hobbits and other magical creatures.

 Tolkien liked to spend evenings drinking beer while singing viking
songs in their original languages, and some of his colleagues
considered him less than fully serious. After his death in 1973 one
colleague lamented the loss of "a very fine medieval scholar who
might have done so much more work of lasting value."

 Jane Chance of Rice University said experts had compared Tolkien's
first fantasy work, "The Hobbit," to the Beowulf saga, and his
later trilogy, "Lord of the Rings," to the works of Spenser and
Malory.

 "Tolkien refashioned the old medieval epics into what we now call
fantasy literature," Ms. Chance said. "He's the bridge figure who
updated the genre. Harry Potter is infused with the Middle Earth
ethos, which is about the ordinary or smaller man who goes on to
win great victories."

 In keeping with the conference's informal atmosphere, the
professors who discussed Harry Potter assumed roles as witches on
the faculty at Hogwarts, the school where he studies wizardry.
Their paper was in the form of a dialogue about Harry's proposed
senior thesis comparing Hogwarts to the court of King Arthur. The
professors, Ms. Arden and Kathryn Lorenz, started by noting
physical similarities like invisible doors, magical animals and the
use of parchment, sealing wax and coats of arms. From there they
turned to thematic devices like the ease with which characters move
between normal and abnormal worlds.

 "Like Arthur, Harry is destined to make an exemplary stand against
the forces of evil and chaos," Ms. Arden said. "The phenomenal
popularity of the Potter chronicles may be linked to the way they
reflect the underlying attractions of the Arthurian world. They
give their readers a picture of a wonderful community centered on a
superhuman leader and made up of exceptional individuals of whom
the hero is the most exceptional."

 And that explains the continuing hold that medieval themes have on
people, she added. "The hero himself, whether Arthur, Percivale or
our own Harry Potter, shows us that a seemingly ordinary orphan
child can turn out to be an exceptional person. Perhaps the
greatest quality shared by Harry and the Arthurian hero is to show
us the power of imagination to transform the established boundaries
between things and people, to show us the possibilities of other
worlds." 

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/12/arts/12MIDD.html?ex=991676293&ei=1&en=03b078a1d26c9673

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From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu May 24 03:55:13 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 03:55:13 -0000
Subject: Keeper of the House (filk)
Message-ID: <9ei0n1+elfi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19321

KEEPER OF THE HOUSE

To the tune of "Master of the House" from LES MISERABLES

Dedicated to Amy Z and to Amanda Lewanski


Curtain.  Filch with quill, writing at his desk.

FILCH
Dear Headmaster,
Here's your report,
I tried my best
But can't keep it short...
Punishing pests,
Updating files,
As for the rest--
You'll see in a while.
Seldom do you see
Upright men like me--
A fine man with a spine
Who's only trying to be...

[grumbling]
Keeper of the House
Guardian of the gates
Ready with detention for those reprobates!
Spots a liar's tale
Makes a little list
Rules the troublemakers with an iron fist!
Glad to do old Snape a favor
Yes, he seems to understand:
Students need to pay or they will get stuck-up and out of hand...

[warming to the topic]
Keeper of the House
Keeper of the zoo
Running after kids is more than I should do!
Get a couple chains
Water and dry bread
Lock 'em in the dungeon standing on their heads!
Everybody hates the bad guy
But that is what I'm paid to do--
Whatever it will take to make them toe the line, that's what I'll do!

FRED and GEORGE, leading a chain-gang chorus outside Filch's office, 
banging pots and pans:

CHORUS
Keeper of the House
Quick to take a point,
Loves a good excuse to throw you in the joint!
Eyes on every floor,
Locks on every gate,
Likes to smack infractions whether small or great!
And he's got this cat companion
Boy, is she a royal pain!

FILCH
Come on, Mrs. Norris,
Cor! this is an awful ruddy day!

[FILCH returns to his letter]

FILCH
Dear Headmaster,
Now for the punch,
I hope you're not yet
Eating your lunch...
I have to say
Peeves is a curse
His pranks are growing 
Worse and yet worse
Contest there can't be
Of the lists so long
If only you could see
What Peeves has done so wrong...!

Good food everywhere!
House-elves in a state!
And he dared to speak to me in words of hate!
Smearings on the wall!
Toilets overflowed!
And there was graffiti saying I'm a toad!
Putting gum wads in a door lock
Writing swear words on the board,
It's beyond all reason and his dirty pranks I can't afford...

Vandals scrawling here,
Vandals scrawling there,
All the mess just makes me want to tear my hair!
Here a wardrobe smashed
There a curtain cut,
I'm constantly erasing all the dirt and smut!
Running out of Mrs. Skower's,
Running out of sanity!
Oh the little slimeys
How they love to try me
Blimey! what a trial to be me!

CHORUS
Keeper of the House
Quick to take a point
Love a good excuse to haul you in the joint!
Eyes on every floor
Locks on every gate
Likes to smack infractions whether small or great!
And he's got this cat companion,
Dearly whom we'd like to kick

FILCH
Come on, Mrs. Norris,
Cor! this day has given me some stick!

Enter PEEVES, dressed like a French tavern mistress, vamping:

PEEVES
I used to think
Old Dumble had a brain
But have you seen
What he's hired as caretaker?  He's insane!

Keeper of the House?
What a silly git!
Thinks he runs the castle, but he's such a twit!
Morals up to *here*--
Platitudes to *there*--
Thinks he's got my number--but there's not much there
[waves tiny phantom wand]
Waging war upon my antics,
What's a poltergeist to do?
How I love to fib and teach the little Squib a thing or two!

FILCH and CHORUS
Keeper of the House!

PEEVES
Keeper of the dump!

FILCH and CHORUS
Likes to smack infractions

PEEVES
Ah, the silly lump!

FILCH and CHORUS
Eyes on every floor,
Locks on every gate,

PEEVES
Bats about a hundredth, I would estimate!

CHORUS
Let's all drink a toast to Argus,
Give his cat a fresh white mouse!
Everybody raise a roar!

PEEVES
Let's all see his Kwikspell score!

FILCH and CHORUS
Everybody raise a roar for the Keeper of the House!



--Lisa I.




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 24 04:32:24 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 04:32:24 -0000
Subject: defense of Sirius and James
In-Reply-To: <000001c0e2f4$612535a0$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9ei2so+qo1l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19322

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> This is my first post in this group, so please excuse any 
inadvertant breach
> of group conventions.
> 
Welcome Susan.  Great post.

> I confess to feeling a bit baffled by a couple of recent posts 
describing
> Sirius as "commitmentphobic".  Not only is there nothing in the 
text to
> support this (about the only time we hear of  him pre Azkaban he is 
trying
> to assume the sole care of an orphaned 15month old child) it 
completely
> contrasts with my view of him and James, in that I tend to think 
that not
> being in a lifetime relationship at 22 is pretty normal, and James 
and Lily
> are definitely on the young side to have settled down, especially 
since
> normal wizard lifetimes exceed Muggle ones by about 50% apparently. 
Had
> Voldemort not intervened I  could have imagined James at age 28 or
> thereabouts coming home from a long day at wherever he was earning 
all those
> Galleons, tripping over Harry and his bratty siblings, having a 
huge row
> with Lily in which she works off her frustrations at the 
sidetracking of her
> magical career and he works off all his frustrations at his missed
> opportunities to play the field, culminating with his final insult 
"You get
> more like your sister Petunia every day", a slammed door, and a 
trip out to
> meet Sirius in the pub, where he makes bitter remarks about women 
into his
> pint and flirts outrageously with the half Veela barmaid just to 
prove he
> isn't past it....

Aside from being extremely amusing, this post makes an interesting 
point.  We really know very, very little about James and Lily except 
that they were very smart.  We tend to make a lot of assumptions 
about them. I think that there are some things we can surmise, though.

One thing that I think is implied in the books is that they were very 
involved in the War Against Voldy.  It is even possible that they 
married early and had a child quickly because they knew there was a 
great possibility that they would not survive.  Judging by the wizard 
celebrations in Chapter 1 of PS/SS, this War was as overwhelming and 
all-encompassing as WWII was for muggles.  I doubt anyone on this 
list is old enough to remember WWII, but I have read a lot and heard 
stories from my parents, who were small children during WWII, and I 
believe it was the kind of situation where everyones life was 
affected, almost all the time, and it was hard to think about 
anything else.

I imagine that James and Lily were sort of like the WWII resistance 
fighters.  Brave, dedicated, secretive by necessity, loyal, 
principled.  And amusing as though Susans portrait is, I think their 
lives were substantially different.

--Joywitch




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Thu May 24 04:59:14 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 00:59:14 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fave Characters
References: <20010523191939.12766.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B0C9522.14319623@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 19323

Hello Everybody!!

Amber wrote:

>
> Hermione Granger - My favorite character out of the entire canon. Not
> only is she a voracious reader, but she loves to learn. She stands up
> for her friends, and even isn't afraid to stand against them when she
> feels strongly enough (ex: Firebolt incident, Scabbers). She is also
> willing to do a lot for a friend (example: helping Hagrid with
> Buckbeak's trial when she was already too busy to eat or sleep, helping
> Neville with his homework and Potions). She's not dazzlingly beautiful
> like a couple of other school witches (Fleur and Cho). I would love to
> find a best friend like "Herm-own-ninny".

Hermione is, hands down, my fave character. She's changed and grown up so much in the four years that we've known her. And she's just so cool. She's strong willed, stubborn, and has a fun side.

One of the main reasons I like her is this: she's not a classic beauty. She's the main "heroine", I guess, and she's not a drop dead knock out. She's a bushy haired, buck toothed (though not anymore) normal girl. She's smart, promotes
reading, and has a nice sense of fairness.

I just think she kicks, personally. I don't know why, but when we first met her on the train to Hogwarts, I thought, "ooo, feisty. Feistys good."

TTFN,
Jamieson




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Thu May 24 05:07:28 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:07:28 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] NYTimes.com Article: An Improbable Sequel: Harry  Potter and the Ivory Tower
References: <20010524035133.2417A58A4D@email5.lga2.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <3B0C9710.752B44F@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 19324

Hello everybody, hope you're well....

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

>
>
>  One of the big ideas this year was the persistence of medieval
> archetypes in popular culture. In addition to Harry Potter, the
> scholars discussed the Hobbit series of J. R. R. Tolkien, which is
> considered to have been modeled on themes from medieval literature,
> as well as the continuing resonance of medieval figures ranging
> from Merlin to Thomas Aquinas. There were a dozen papers about Joan
> of Arc, and half a dozen about that equally extraordinary woman,
> Hildegard von Bingen.

Interesting point on Merlin....I've always thought that Dumbledore reminded me of him. But in a modern way, I guess. What Dumbldore represents is the older style of wizard, while Harry and friends represent what would be todays moden
praticioner of Witchcraft. Imho, of course.

What I find so intoxicating about the world of Harry Potter is that there is a representation of everyone in it. Like it could acctually exist. But, along with the "reality" of Witchcraft, is the paralells of the old theme "If Witches
existed".

It's interesting to think about it, but I really hadn't read a nice portrayal of Witchcraft in a long time. Sure, there are the books by Dianne Wynne Jones (sp?), but even in there it's sort of a bad thing.

So along comes Harry Potter, and the world is once again thrown into the mythology of witches and wizards. But with one small catch: they're portrayed as normal people with normal lives, normal thoughts and emotions. It's like one big
Realistic Magical Myth, I suppose.

Anyway, just thought I'd state my opinion. At least I think theres one in there somewhere. sorry for the long post!

Hugs, ttfn,
Jamieson




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 05:11:50 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:11:50 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] L&J typical? (bit o' FF) (was defense of Sirius and James)
Message-ID: <F216asSmz6UuEhjJ8uT00003dce@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19325

Me:
>
> > Which begs the question of whether the J and L romance is typical or
> > atypical in the wizarding world.  If typical, then all those who say
>that we
> > shippers are nuts ("who marries the people they grow up with?")
>ought to
> > think twice.  If atypical, then one wonders *why* they were in such
>a rush
> > to get married/have children... I could suggest several reasons why,
>but the
> > prevailing winds on list would blow me over.
>

Amy:
>Ja.  On the typical side:  I certainly don't think shippers are nuts,
>but it does strain credulity when people think Harry is going to marry
>Ginny AND Ron is going to marry Hermione AND Fred is going to marry
>Angelina AND Fleur is going to marry Bill AND Neville is going to
>marry Crookshanks.  You know, I can believe in one or two
>childhood-friendship-->marriage relationships, but when there are too
>many in a single fanfic, I begin to wonder just what's in the Hogwarts
>water.

Me again:

LOL!  Very subtle... but I caught it.  ;-)

Nothing's in the Hogwarts water.  Sometimes fan writers are too lazy to 
create lots of OCs and new situations... I know that was the case for me.  
I'd rather spend that energy and creativity on original writing.

Most fanfic writers I know don't take themselves too seriously.  We're not 
trying to write or rewrite canon (who'd be so presumptuous?)... we're just 
having fun.  Or keeping our quills sharp between projects.  Or proving a 
point.

And shipping and fanfic are really two different things... there are 
shippers who will not read fanfic, and no-ship fanfic writers.

Amy:
>If atypical, I don't think we need a reason why they were in such a
>rush.  Maybe it's as simple as: they were wildly in love and
>didn't see any reason to wait.  We can generate reasons that may be
>more interesting from the point of view of plot, such as they
>got pregnant (scandalous!) or with Voldy breathing down their necks
>they thought they'd better live fast (tragic!), and maybe any
>or all of them will prove true, but I don't think we need to explain
>it just because it's unusual.  Deviation from the norm is normal.
>

We're agreed on that last point!  I still think it's strange, given the 
development of the social development of the characters we see in canon.  
That seems to coincide with wizarding world longevity... the L/J situation 
does not.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 24 05:11:54 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:11:54 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters: Lupin, Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <9eheq1+3ra4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ei56q+evlp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19326

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Amber wrote:
>  
> > I've never understood the
> > Remus/Sirius craze (the whole "dead sexy" thing). 
> 
> ::draws herself up in an attempt to look dignified::  Now, not all 
of 
> us Lupinlovers think the man is sexy.  Sexy is not the point.  I 
don't 
> want to sleep with the man  [snip]

I do.  I think that a man who turns into a crazed beast for a few 
days every month would be the type of sensitive, sympathetic lover 
that any woman would appreciate.  I think that this is the basis of 
his attractiveness.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 24 05:29:03 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:29:03 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #4
Message-ID: <9ei66v+3465@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19327

This week we have a puzzle, written by Caius Marcius, one of our 
Great Brains.  Should be a fun one.  But first, the rules:

1.  Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email 
address, which is HP4GUCon at aol.com.  RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED 
TO THE LIST.  Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers, to 
the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest, 
sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to eat 
bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST.

2.  Contests will be posted on Fridays.  Responses should be sent by 
email to HP4GUCon at aol.com by midnight Tuesday night (EST).  For 
puzzle contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who 
submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted on 
Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest).  For creative and speculative 
contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a 
random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular 
contest.

Here is the contest:

The following is a partial list of the last spoken line of dialogue 
by JKR's characters in the canon so far. Identify the speaker, and 
for extra credit, the book and the chapter.  Most of these can be 
found toward the end of GoF - most, but not all....... 

"Just you and me, Harry Potter ... you and me...."  

"Take my body back to my parents
." 

"He'll lend you one." 

"See you, Harry" 

"He is mine!" 

"Thanks for the socks, Harry Potter!" 

"
.tell him what Peeves was up to
." 

"You're going to have to fight the Cruciatus Curse!" 

"We will return, if you please, to history, to solid, believable, 
verifiable fact!" 

"They're supposed to be really hard to catch!" 

"There should have been a presentation ceremony, but under the 
circumstances
." ?

"I am." 

"Severus Snape is a Death Eater!"

"Keep in touch, Harry" 

"Harry,"

"Well, second ? Diggory was the f-"  

"Remember Cedric Diggory" 

"Cedric Diggory" 

"Bye, Harry" 

"Very ? very well," 

"He can still be gamekeeper, can't he?" 

"But I must do what I can, you do understand, don't you?" 

"Goodbye, then." 

"Leave it to me," 

"No," 

"
.not that it needs it
.." 

"Headmaster, there is no need to see me to the gate, I can manage
." 

"You fight him, boy
" 

No my Lord
.never, my Lord" 

"Buy Ron some different robes and say they're from you."  

"
.I don't like them much, they always chase me when I get too 
close
." 

"AARGH!" 

"These deaths were not the random work of a lunatic!" 

"I was jokin' ? jokin'!" 

"I'd better hurry ? you have a good term, boys!" 

"Take them away, and may they rot there!" 

"Three ? two ? one" 

"If you leave now, you may lose the opportunity to see further than 
you have ever-" ? 

"I still can't work out how you two got the best-looking girls this 
year." 

"He is returned to power and I will be honored by him beyond the 
dreams of wizards."

"I'm about to become the youngest ever Minister of Magic, I am." 

"...how you managed to return to us...." 

REMEMBER:  DO ****NOT**** POST ANSWERS TO THE LIST.  Email your 
answers to HP4GUCon at aol.com.  Good luck!

--Joywitch




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 05:34:40 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:34:40 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: L&J typical?
Message-ID: <F165eq2fEfLrbPqPDBT00008133@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19328

I've been reading a lot of messages in this thread about young marriages.  I 
can totally relate--I am still single, I am also the first woman on my 
mother's side of the family to make it beyond age 23 without being married.  
Everyone else was hitched rather young.

But we are Muggles with Muggle lifespans and customs.

These are magical folk who by the author's admission live twice as long as 
we do.

We've already had the discussions about age-appropriate social development 
and the Hogwarts kids.

Lily and James marrying young is a curiosity to me.  That's all.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 05:45:39 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:45:39 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <000001c0e35a$eb3ed820$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9ei763+jlna@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19329

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> >Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me - "
> >
> > and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen pounced."
> 
> If there was only one legal move that the knight could make at that point,
> and the chess board obeyed the ordinary rule that one a player has touched a
> piece they have to move it, even if they suddenly realise that they have
> made a mistake, the queen would be legally entitled to take Ron the instant
> he moved, though it is better etiquette (and psychology) to wait till the
> piece actually lands on the disputed square.

But how does Ron have only one legal move?  From any square, a
knight has at least two moves.

Robert Carnegie, exposing ignorance
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 06:10:36 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:10:36 -0000
Subject: Dark creatures
In-Reply-To: <20010523134512.27842.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ei8ks+dadb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19330

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> 
> From GoF, Chapter 20:
> 
> "When Lupin had lived there, you were more likely to
> come across a specimen of some fascinating new Drak
> creature he had procured for them to study in class."
> 
> Anyone wonder what JKR means by "lived there", ie.
> does she mean Lupin literally lived in his office?
> That just now struck me.
> 
> Anne

I noticed that he says he sleeps in his office after drinking Wolfbane
potion - probably in a basket under his desk.  He still turns into a
wolf physically, but he goes to sleep instead of running around biting
people.  Fail-safe and the fact he probably still yells (or yelps)
because of the pain of the change are two possible reasons for him to
stay away from the staff bedrooms - at least at this particular time.
The other staff know he's a werewolf, but they probably don't like to
be reminded of it through the walls when they're in bed or working.

I didn't notice at first that I was addressing Anne Old_wych here!
Then my commputer crashed.  Obviously Anne Belligerente Old_wych :-)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 06:22:45 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:22:45 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <002401c0e399$f3bfab20$b005073e@chris>
Message-ID: <9ei9bl+o7n9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19331

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Chris Dosset" <dosser at b...> wrote:
> Hi, I am Chris, a new member and this is my first posting so be gentle with me!
> 
>   I love the idea that McGonnegal used a rare version of "faerie" chess where the back ranks are randomized, to make things more difficult.  It's certainly recognized in the chess world that opening theory would all go out of the window in this version of the game. This would solve the problem concerning the bishop being next to the rook at the start of the game.  

I noticed that Dave(?) talked here about fairy chess, but then Percy
talks about "McGonnagall's giant chess set."  I think wizards don't
have such a high opinion of fairies as Muggles do, but perhaps giants -

(Before you ask, I say Hagrid isn't a giant, but a very large
human.  My theory is he was bitten by a hyperactive acromantula -
hmm, familiar origin?)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 06:45:12 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:45:12 -0000
Subject: spider eating 101 (was chapter 8 and 9)
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0981@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9eialo+lv2h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19332

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
> Hi, folks!
> 
> In reference to a question about Crookshanks chewing a spider in Ron's
> sight, Robert Carnegie wrote: 
> > 
> > A _large_ dead spider.  Although I suspect it's just put there
> > by JKR to freak Ron out with his acranacrophobia (hi, joywitch :-)
> > since he doesn't like spiders at _all_, even dead, so that he
> > and Hermione can do their disagreeing-about-Crookshanks bit again,
> > perhaps it just could be an early clue that Crookshanks has been
> > exploring in the Forbidden Forest?
> > 
> 
> Actually, jumping in with a minor correction I haven't seen anyone
> else post yet: In CoS, Ron says he doesn't mind spiders when they're 
> dead. It's in chapter 9:
> 
> "'I - don't - like - spiders,' said Ron tensely.
> "'I never knew that,' said Hermione, looking at Ron in surprise.
> 'You've used spiders in Potions loads of times....'
> "'I don't mind them dead,' said Ron, who was carefully looking
> anywhere but at the window. 'I just don't like the way they
> move...'"

Good point - but that's before CS chapter 15 ;-)  And I'd suspect
that he doesn't much care for dead ones either in the first place.

I don't want to add to your own worry, but how do you tell live ones from dead, anyway?

Mind, I think spiders would prefer to stay out of our way if they
can - they just aren't very good at it.  No, I don't eat them, either ;-)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)







From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 06:54:05 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:54:05 -0000
Subject: Errol
In-Reply-To: <9egs9o+ftn1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eib6d+f1ns@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19333

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> 
> I do think the Weasley's should retire poor Errol.

But mightn't he pine away anyway if they did?  He's a working owl
and - perhaps - proud of it.





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 07:13:46 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:13:46 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010523221635.99669.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eicba+lvl5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19334

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> I think for what it's worth that my favorite character
> as far as humor is concerned is Gilderoy Lockhart. 
> Every scene he was in was so funny I was splitting my
> sides at the same time I was trying to read to my kids
> (and they were literally rolling around laughing--it
> made it hard to get them to settle down at bedtime,
> frankly).  Rita Skeeter is a close second for humor,
> but Lockhart wins the LOL prize hands down.  (Of
> course we're laughing at him, not with him.) Lockhart
> was an inspired creation, and I couldn't help but
> wonder whether her encounters with some Fleet Street
> reporters after JKR became quite famous were
> responsible for the creation of Rita.

JKR told BBC's _Desert Island Discs_ that Rita was originally
going to be in the Leaky Cauldron scene in PS[SS], and did realise,
later on, how Rita's debut in GOF would look.  But what the heck.





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Thu May 24 07:27:05 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:27:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] marriage in the canon
In-Reply-To: <9ei2so+qo1l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0e422$ef2e8c00$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19335

>I imagine that James and Lily were sort of like the WWII resistance
fighters.  Brave, dedicated, secretive by necessity, loyal,
>principled.

Yes, I rather thought that as well.  Anyone seen Meryl Streep's portrayal of
an ex SOE (Special Operations Executive) fighter in the film of "Plenty"
which is set *after* the war or, better yet, the stage version which was
done at the Royal National Theatre years ago with someone else in the lead?
That influenced my posting rather considerably.  Winning the post-War is
often more difficult than winning the war itself (look at what the MOM have
done with the Voldemort interregnum, for example)

We don't know how the James/Lily marriage would have turned out, but one
thing we do know for sure, like any long term relationship it would not have
been summed up as "happy ever after".  And if they did marry under threat of
death, and had, by some miracle survived, that would have taken a lot of
adjusting to.

Actually, one of the happiest marriages in the canon , purely seen as a
marriage, is the Dursleys'.  They never seem to have any doubts about each
other.   The rest of the world, yes, but not each other.

Susan




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 07:30:34 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:30:34 -0000
Subject: Discussion: Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, and Divination
In-Reply-To: <35.157216f1.283c643d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9eidaq+b5rl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19336

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., browneyes1420 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/22/01 6:38:52 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> hermionegranger.gryffindor at j... writes:
> > 
> > 
> > Arithmancy
> >     More is known on this class than Ancient Runes, though we have
> > never seen a class in action. Hermione has taken this both her
> > Third and Fourth years; she tells Harry that this is her favorite
> > class. It is taught by Professor Vector, <one of> [sic] which
> > indicates that words may factor in this class along with numbers.
> > The homework includes a variety of complicated number charts, and
> > probably corresponds to Muggle algebra.
> 
> Daer Hermoine, I read that Arithmancy is the prediction of the
> future through  numbers and number charts. However, though this was
> the actual use of the  subject a long time ago, this does not sound
> like something hermoine would  like, I was under the impression that
> she hated divination in all forms. I agree however that the word
> Vector implies the use of (muggle?) numbers.
>
> Joe

Then he should be Professor Scalar :-)

I was going to say that Hermione (in the books) might like Arithmancy
because although it's a kind of Divination - or, perhaps, a study
of how underlying numerological laws influence events - it's the sort
of Divination where you get an exact answer, if perhaps not
necessarily an accurate one, instead of the vague hints that
Professor Trelawney likes to give.

Second thought: Hermione probably prefers subjects where you can get
nine or ten out of ten if you've memorised and understood the facts.
So do I ;-)

Third thought: Hermione doesn't like not being good at subjects.

Fourth thought: Arithmancy may be more scientific in style, too,
involving a lot of collection of data.  Perhaps, with sufficient
data, Arithmancy can accurately predict _anything_.

Fifth thought: But Arithmancy probably predicts that if you spend
all your time studying Arithmancy tables to find the Dark Lord's
weakness, the Dark Lord will get to you before you get to him.

Btw, Terry Pratchett's Unseen University has a subject called
Recent Runes, suggesting that the subject of Ancient Runes
is older - well, yes, but I mean older than Pratchett's or
JKR's series.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 07:35:14 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:35:14 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #3 Results
In-Reply-To: <9eht92+dkll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eidji+mreh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19337

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> Subject: HP4GU Contest #3 Results

Aaargh.

My computer crashed - and then I did too, I fell asleep about 9 -
and now it's Finite Incantatem. *sigh*  But at least you should
know by now why you got a name check against "acranacrophobia".

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 08:17:11 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:17:11 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] marriage in the canon
References: <000001c0e422$ef2e8c00$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <OE28abtneqdGSyMp69Y000025ee@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19338

Susan:
Actually, one of the happiest marriages in the canon , purely seen as a
marriage, is the Dursleys'.  They never seem to have any doubts about each
other.   The rest of the world, yes, but not each other.

I never thought of that. Another happy marriage is the Weasleys. It especially shows in the scene when the boys come back from the Quidditch World Cup, and Molly is distraught. When Arthur is called to the Ministry, she protests that he shouldn't have to work, that he ought to stay home. She runs to meet him when he gets home from work. Very cute, and romantic. She also puts up with Arthur's Muggle obsession. That's gotta be true love. She's concerned for his happiness, and does not press him into trying to be promoted, because she knows he loves Muggle artifacts.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 07:50:48 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 00:50:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 903
In-Reply-To: <990647521.5159.76050.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010524075048.2743.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19339

Monika wrote:

>May I ask what's wrong with this? Even if it is true,
a lot of young
>fathers *and* mothers have to learn how to handle a
baby. I for
>sure wouldn't know if no one showed me. But then,
it's Sirius
>and he doesn't really care, right? Again, we *don't
know*
>from canon how irresponsible he really was. Switching
Secret-
>Keepers wasn't exactly irresponsible in my eyes,
sorry. 

I have to agree with Monika.  The switch wasn't done
for an irresponsible reason it was done becuase they
suspected someone was double-crossing them (which
someone was) I think they were showing some
brains(only some mind you :P) when they did it.

Danette

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From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Thu May 24 08:33:46 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:33:46 -0000
Subject: Quidditch timeline Flint?
Message-ID: <9eih1a+1drk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19340


I finally got around to checking the info given on the Quidditch World 
cup to try and get a new handle on the overall timeline.  
Unfortunately it didn't work out very well (in supporting the 
existing timeline that is), but I'll summarise it here for those of 
you who are interested. Sorry, if it's been said before, but I missed 
it if so.

In Fantastic Beasts, It states that "the year 1473 saw the first ever 
Quidditch World Cup..." and also that "The World Cup has since been 
held every four years"

Well, OK, so they could have missed a few (for major wars etc.), but 
like the Olympics may have kept to the schedule - ie: had an 8 or 12 
year gap where some had been missed.  Unfortunately this leads to a 
date of 1995 for the GoF event, which from Nearly Headless Nicks 
deathday party should in fact be 1994. 

Now, the last bit of evidence comes in GoF when Bagman is 
commentating.  He says... "Welcome to the final on the four hundred 
and twenty-second Quidditch World Cup!"  Now this just has to be a 
Flint.  If the cup started in 1473 and runs every 4 years, it would 
only be the 129th Cup in 1995 if none had been missed.

I guess Bagman meant 122nd Cup and that somewhere after one of the 
'gaps' the actual year the event was held on moved back a year (so we 
get 1994 instead of 1995).

Florence








From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 10:38:43 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 03:38:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP4GU Contest #3 Results
In-Reply-To: <9eht92+dkll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010524103843.6663.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19341

I don't know about anyone else, but I especially like
the idea of the Telemarketer's Curse!

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From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 09:27:20 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 23:27:20 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
References: <ac.157455ae.283da173@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OE46MFlF8HGmCvoXM7e00002524@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19342


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JamiDeise at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters


  In a message dated 5/23/2001 5:54:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
  bohners at pobox.com writes:

  <<  I came to the conclusion
  that there is a LOT more to Snape -- in a positive way -- that we haven't
  seen yet, and that JKR has been hinting at this all along:  which to me
  makes him the most intriguing character of all. >>

  That's exactly how I feel.

  At the risk of incurring the wrath of those open-minded enough to see beyond 
  the characters as they occur to our protagonist, I must admit that I abhor 
  Snape. Loathe him. Despise him. Detest him. To me, he occurs as an insecure, 
  petty and vindictive man who takes out his own frustrations on those weaker 
  than he is. Look at the way he tortures poor Neville -- completely 
  indefensible, especially since GoF we know the sacrifice Neville's family has 
  endured. And the remark he made to Hermione when she got caught in Draco and 
  Harry's curse-wake and her teeth grew out of control: "I don't see a 
  difference." Incredibly cruel. He's biased toward members of his own House, a 
  trait not shown by the other Heads of Houses (at least not that I have seen), 
  which I infer may be why Slytherin won the House Cup every year until Harry 
  showed up -- with Snape unfairly taking away points from other Houses and 
  awarding them to Slytherin without merit, and no other Head of House willing 
  to stoop to such levels, his House was a guaranteed shoo-in.

  All of these are valid points. You are right. They are all inexcusable. Yet, Dumbledore keeps him around, and it can't be just for charity. I wonder why he switched sides, anyway? There had to be some good reason. You're right. He's jealous, vindictive, and nasty, but not necessarily evil. We don't know all the facts, because we don't know Snape's side of the story, and being a major Snape fan, I hate to presume he's automatically the bad guy. I mean, Sirius did indirectly try to get him killed. For a hatred that intense, there is definitely more to the story than we know as yet. Even Harry and Draco haven't gone that far. There's no way for me to defend Snape with your arguments, but we've never seen anything from his POV.

  Finally, has this question ever been debated and resolved:  yes, Snape 
  prevented Quirrell from killing Harry in SS. But why didn't he run to 
  Dumbledore as soon as he realized what Quirrell was up to? I don't think we 
  can infer good motives from that one.

  True. One also wonders why Snape gave away the solution to his potion puzzle. Perhaps he did want the stone? Or perhaps he had no conclusive evidence to go accusing a staff member of betrayal? I don't remember the Canon well. I've only read it once, so probably have missed important little details one never catches the first time reading a book. I wonder how Quirrell got the info from all the teachers concerning their traps. Did he charm them? I think he got Hagrid drunk, but don't know about the rest. Sorry for this rambly, emotional, nonsense post.

  Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 09:35:48 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 23:35:48 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Buckbeak, Weasleys, Lockhart, Skeeter
References: <20010523222727.72506.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE32UfKRfcjcMzfoV1q000025d8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19343

Wanda:
William likes all the characters, but it is the
animals he likes the best1

Speaking of animals, I liked Buckbeak. I disliked what Malfoy did to Hagrid. Skeeter, too. She and Lockheart were both plain annoying. I enjoyed seeing him get zapped by Snape. Served him right. The Weasley twins are definitely funny. I love them.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 09:45:51 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 23:45:51 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
References: <9eh8r2+m7sb@eGroups.com> <022f01c0e3d1$85f6fc00$2698e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <OE73GERxKF83Emd59fc00002539@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19344

I've gotta say I agree with every single thing you've said here. You have a way with describing characters to a tee. I like Moody as well. Ron seems to have too much of a temper, but he is quite devoted. He's still a typical guy, though, which unnerves me. I'm keeping this post as a great memory from this list. I've seen you on Snapefans as well. Great. :)

I was sad that when Ron tried to make an effort to make up with Harry, Harry just coldly shrugged him off. I thought that was mean of him. Hermione was surprisingly tender when she spoke of Ron's jealousy toward him. I, too, get tired of hearing about him.

Vicky
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 11:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters


  My favorite adult characters are Snape and Mad-Eye Moody, and my favorite of
  the Trio is Ron.  One might think, based on that, that I'm drawn to fierce,
  sarcastic, bad-tempered men:  but in fact I'm not.

  What appeals to me about Snape is not his nastiness, but his vulnerability.
  The touching way in which he defers to Dumbledore as he does to no one else,
  and seems almost anxious for his approval and understanding:  you can see
  there's a lot of history there, and that Snape knows he owes Dumbledore such
  an enormous debt for giving him a second chance that he can't even begin to
  repay him.  Also, his courage.  Snape is not afraid to take risks and to put
  himself on the line for what he believes in.  When he pulled up his sleeve
  and showed Fudge the Dark Mark, caring nothing for his reputation or what
  might happen to him personally, I was smitten.  I came to the conclusion
  that there is a LOT more to Snape -- in a positive way -- that we haven't
  seen yet, and that JKR has been hinting at this all along:  which to me
  makes him the most intriguing character of all.

  I love Mad-Eye (yes, I know we haven't seen the REAL Mad-Eye yet, but
  Crouch's impersonation must have been near-perfect or somebody would have
  called him on it) because he's passionate -- even fanatical -- about the
  truth, he's made huge sacrifices for what he believes in, and he doesn't
  care if people think he's crazy.  But there's also a sort of rough
  tenderness to him, a kindness underneath the tough exterior.  He reminds me
  of a big, scarred polar bear.  Dangerous, but cuddly.

  I love Ron because his dry sense of humour just kills me -- he always seems
  to know how to sum up a situation in one phrase.  He's hot-headed and
  thin-skinned, but if you've got him on your side, you can count on him to
  defend and support you with everything he's got.  (That whole scene where
  Ron tries to punish Draco for insulting Hermione and winds up belching slugs
  just sums up Ron's character perfectly, I think.)  He's also touchingly
  vulnerable:  he wants so much to be liked and accepted, to prove that he's a
  person in his own right and not Just Another Weasley Kid.  I can understand
  that, and I don't think it proves or even suggests that Ron will turn out
  badly.  He's just going through a rough time, like a lot of us do, trying to
  figure out who he is and where he fits in.  And when your best friend is
  Harry Potter, The Boy Who Is Destined To Be In The Spotlight, that's pretty
  tough sometimes.

  All of which is not to say I don't love the other characters, particularly
  Harry and Hermione, because I do.  But these are the three that stand out in
  my mind.
  --
  Rebecca J. Bohner
  rebeccaj at pobox.com
  http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj


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From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 11:25:31 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:25:31 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Chamber of Secret Chamber Pots (was Re: New places in Order of the Phoenix)
References: <9eg3ra+k3vi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE37NVtoX2gAb8fyYI700002601@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19345

Mark:
I immediately thought JKR was referring to the room Dumbledore 
mentions at the Yule Ball which he discovered on the way to the 
bathroom-- the room full of chamber pots.

I thought Rowling meant that upon her arrival at Hogwarts, she'd want 
to go that chamber to ..er.. freshen up first.  I thought the whole 
chamber pot room was just a gag.  But, then (in true HP-fan fashion) 
I thought about it some more (probably too much!)  What if that room 
does possess a secret, one of those of which Dumbledore humbly claims 
ignorance?

It is now one of my favorite pet theories that there's more to the 
"Chamber of Secret Chamber Pots".  The chamber could actually have 
the magical property of producing what one needs or wants (a "Chamber 
of Desire"?)  Dumbledore, with his simple wants (and his full bladder 
at the time), sees only a room full of magnificent vessels for 
bedroom relief.  But to anyone less serene than the headmaster, who 
knows what the chamber would provide?  =) 

Yes, I have thought the "chamber-pot chamber" was something more than a joke, after reading that passage a few times. It was a very funny joke. I was cracking up. But I never took the time to outline a theory on it. That's plausible. The Mirror of Erised was that way. Dumbledore often claims ignorance of things he truly does know about, a wise tack for getting other peoples' viewpoints and not getting flamed.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 12:38:46 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth C)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:38:46 +1000
Subject: Red Flags, Red Herrings (and a Neville tangent)
Message-ID: <F32c2S6AATiyhGvDpED0000d086@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19346

Great pickups everyone who's posted ideas on this topic! I apologize for not 
quoting anyone in this post, but I only just picked my point (which I will 
get to) up while I was re-reading PS/SS tonight and I've deleted all the old 
emails.

Aha! We come to the point :)
This is from PS/SS Ch16:p192 'And Neville will play Quidditch of England 
before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down.' [said Ron].
After reading that, combined with all the ideas about forshadowing/red 
flags/red herrings/Hagrid and his loyalty and how it could be his downfall 
or used against him, I thought 'Hey! Maybe a) Neville *will* play Quidditch 
for England and/or b) Hagrid *will* let Dumbledore down. Not intentionally, 
I'm sure, but much as I love him, I know that he's vulnerable in a lot of 
ways - not the least of which is being half-giant.

I think that Neville becoming an international Quidditch player would be 
great! I feel so much for the little guy, I'd love to see him become one of 
Hogwarts' most famous graduates. That's assuming he doesn't die of course. 
Because, I can see him not surviving the seventh book. I think many people 
parallel him with Wormtail in the MWPP/HRHN view that can be taken. And I 
don't think Neville will ever go over to the Dark side. I think he'd do just 
the opposite - make the ultimate sacrifice for the Good side. That would be 
another good way for JKR to show us how people who may seem to be similar on 
the outside - in this case, the little, less talented, less famous, less 
everything guy in the gang - can end up going completly different ways. I 
subscribe to Barb's "Harry and Voldemort have very similar departure points, 
but their destinations are very different" idea. I really really like it and 
would like to award her 20 points :)

And lastly, I'd just like to add a big, general 'You guys are great'. I love 
this list.

Lizzy
----------------------------------------------------
Quidditch is, of course, an entirely fictional sport
and nobody really plays it.
May I also take this opportunity to wish Puddlemere
United the best of luck next season.
- Albus Dumbledore, Quidditch Through the Ages
----------------------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 12:49:08 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:49:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid (was Chess Flint?)
In-Reply-To: <9ei9bl+o7n9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010524124908.649.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19347


--- rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:


> 
> (Before you ask, I say Hagrid isn't a giant, but a
> very large
> human.  My theory is he was bitten by a hyperactive
> acromantula -
> hmm, familiar origin?)
> 
Except he was already over-sized at age 6. He states
in GoF that he was big enough then to put his dad up
on a dresser if his dad annoyed him. That's too soon
to have been bitten by Aragog (if that's who you meant
by the hyperactive acromantula). Hagrid freely admits
his mother was a giant once the Skeeter article comes
out. In view of the prejudice against giants and
half-giants, why would he lie about it? 

Anne (whose old wych handle has to do with an in-joke
on the figure skating boards she frequents... Who is
Anne Bellegerante? You can answer off list. :))


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From bohners at pobox.com  Thu May 24 12:31:24 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:31:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters: Lupin, Dumbledore
References: <9ei56q+evlp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03c401c0e451$261d1d20$2698e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 19348

>> us Lupinlovers think the man is sexy.  Sexy is not the point.  I 
>> don't want to sleep with the man  [snip]

> I do.  I think that a man who turns into a crazed beast for a few 
> days every month would be the type of sensitive, sympathetic lover 
> that any woman would appreciate.  I think that this is the basis of 
> his attractiveness.

*splutter*

Don't DO that!  I spit tea all over my monitor!

(dissolves into fits of helpless giggles)
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
(who likes Lupin very much, but prefers her husband)




From bohners at pobox.com  Thu May 24 12:57:15 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:57:15 -0400
Subject: In defense of Snape (not really)
References: <ac.157455ae.283da173@aol.com>
Message-ID: <03c501c0e451$278538a0$2698e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 19349

> At the risk of incurring the wrath of those open-minded enough to see
beyond
> the characters as they occur to our protagonist, I must admit that I abhor
> Snape. Loathe him. Despise him. Detest him. To me, he occurs as an
insecure,
> petty and vindictive man who takes out his own frustrations on those
weaker
> than he is.

That's certainly the way he often appears, and I'm not going to try and
contradict you.  It's certainly one valid interpretation of his actions in
the canon, and the most direct one.

Liking Snape -- well, perhaps I shouldn't say liking, as he's really not
very likeable.  Let's say, having high hopes for Snape -- as a character
does not necessitate approving of, explaining away, or ignoring his bad
qualities and cruel actions.  I think there may be *reasons* for the way he
treats Neville and for what he says to Hermione, but they are not *excuses*.

Imagine a situation where you go into work and one of your coworkers, who
has always seemed like a depressed and bitter kind of individual to begin
with, is particularly nasty that day.  He says a lot of things that really
hurt people's feelings and he comes down hard on anyone who makes a mistake
in his presence.  Now, his behaviour is wrong no matter what the
circumstances; there's no explanation that can make his cruelty to others
justifiable.  But would it or would it not change your view of the matter
somewhat if you knew that his mother had just died?

That's what I think about Snape.  I think there are a lot of things
happening behind the scenes that Harry (and therefore we) don't know
anything about.  They don't excuse Snape's behaviour, but they give a
different angle on it.  Yes, Snape is not a nice individual.  You wouldn't
want to invite him to dinner.  You wouldn't want him to babysit your kids.
But he isn't entirely inhuman, either, and I think we're going to get to
know and understand him a lot better in the next three books.

> Finally, has this question ever been debated and resolved:  yes, Snape
> prevented Quirrell from killing Harry in SS. But why didn't he run to
> Dumbledore as soon as he realized what Quirrell was up to?

Possibly for the same reason Dumbledore didn't have Snape tried and punished
as a Death Eater?  Snape didn't know that Quirrell was completely under the
control of Voldemort, for one thing; nor did he know that Quirrell would be
able to get past all the Stone's defenses.  He knew -- or strongly
suspected -- that Q was after the Stone, but he gave him a chance to decide
which side he was on (which was what that little interview in the forest was
all about).

And we don't *know* that Snape never went to Dumbledore, either.  It might
even be that Dumbledore told Snape to do exactly what he did -- warn
Quirrell, and watch him, and wait to see what he would do.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 13:09:18 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of Snape (not really)
In-Reply-To: <03c501c0e451$278538a0$2698e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <20010524130918.60576.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19350

   
> And we don't *know* that Snape never went to
> Dumbledore, either.  It might
> even be that Dumbledore told Snape to do exactly
> what he did -- warn
> Quirrell, and watch him, and wait to see what he
> would do.
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner

Thank you!  I've always thought that Dumbledore
probably knew exactly what was going on.  He doesn't
like to tip his hand.

 


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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 13:28:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:28:01 -0000
Subject: Nothing-but-FF: L&J typical?
In-Reply-To: <F216asSmz6UuEhjJ8uT00003dce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ej291+od0u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19351

Me:

>but it does strain credulity when people think Harry is going to 
marry
>Ginny AND Ron is going to marry Hermione AND Fred is going to marry
>Angelina AND Fleur is going to marry Bill AND Neville is going to
>marry Crookshanks.  You know, I can believe in one or two
>childhood-friendship-->marriage relationships, but when there are too
>many in a single fanfic, I begin to wonder just what's in the 
Hogwarts
>water.

Ebony:

>LOL!  Very subtle... but I caught it.  ;-)

I plead innocent!  Okay, I admit I put Fred and Angelina in there for 
your benefit, but TiP has enough characters, including major ones, who 
aren't in canon, to keep me happy.  However, I had forgotten until I 
read TiP 10* that Fleur and Bill actually got married.  Hmmmm...

Amy Z

*just now, raptly, when I had 50 other things I should have been 
doing--and I always claimed to hate soaps!




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Thu May 24 13:58:23 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:58:23 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of Snape (not really)
Message-ID: <89.7258d85.283e6d7f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19352

In a message dated 5/24/2001 9:09:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bohners at pobox.com writes:

<< Liking Snape -- well, perhaps I shouldn't say liking, as he's really not
 very likeable.  Let's say, having high hopes for Snape -- as a character
 does not necessitate approving of, explaining away, or ignoring his bad
 qualities and cruel actions.  I think there may be *reasons* for the way he
 treats Neville and for what he says to Hermione, but they are not *excuses*.
 
 Imagine a situation where you go into work and one of your coworkers, who
 has always seemed like a depressed and bitter kind of individual to begin
 with, is particularly nasty that day.  He says a lot of things that really
 hurt people's feelings and he comes down hard on anyone who makes a mistake
 in his presence.  Now, his behaviour is wrong no matter what the
 circumstances; there's no explanation that can make his cruelty to others
 justifiable.  But would it or would it not change your view of the matter
 somewhat if you knew that his mother had just died? >>

Definitely. But there's been enough hints, especially in PoZ, that Snape has 
always been this way. And for whatever his reasons, being cruel to children 
is simply indefensible in my book. No matter what his circumstances in 
earlier life, there are always choices. Let me quote from the wisdom of Albus 
Dumbledore:

(CoS) .... "Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know why that 
was. Think."
    "It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "because 
I asked not to go in Slytherin ..."
    "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very 
different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly 
are, far more than our abilities." 

>From GoF ...."  You place too much importance, and you always have done, on 
the so-called purity of blood! You fail to recognize that it matters not what 
someone is born, but what they grow to be!"  

I do hope that as the series unfolds, Snape will develop more compassion. 
Certainly by turning his back on Voldemort, he has shown the ability to 
recognize the errors of his ways. 

Jami 



From JamiDeise at aol.com  Thu May 24 13:58:24 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:58:24 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of Snape (not really)
Message-ID: <65.14cf56c9.283e6d80@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19353

In a message dated 5/24/2001 9:10:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
blpurdom at yahoo.com writes:

<< > And we don't *know* that Snape never went to
 > Dumbledore, either.  It might
 > even be that Dumbledore told Snape to do exactly
 > what he did -- warn
 > Quirrell, and watch him, and wait to see what he
 > would do.
 > --
 > Rebecca J. Bohner
 
 Thank you!  I've always thought that Dumbledore
 probably knew exactly what was going on.  He doesn't
 like to tip his hand.
  >>

But this infers that Dumbledore knew that Quirrell was trying to kill Harry, 
and didn't do anything. I don't want to go there.

Jami 



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 14:30:50 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:30:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of Snape (not really)
In-Reply-To: <20010524130918.60576.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010524143050.28782.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19354

> > And we don't *know* that Snape never went to
> > Dumbledore, either.  It might
> > even be that Dumbledore told Snape to do exactly
> > what he did -- warn
> > Quirrell, and watch him, and wait to see what he
> > would do.
> > --
> > Rebecca J. Bohner
> 
> Thank you!  I've always thought that Dumbledore
> probably knew exactly what was going on.  He doesn't
> like to tip his hand.

I always thought that Snape went to Dumbledore right at the
beginning, too.  When Harry is in the hospital wing and Dumbledore is
explaining (some) things to him, he says that the reason Snape went
to so much trouble to save Harry's life all year was because James
saved his.  How would Dumbledore know that without being kept aware
of it by Snape throughout the year?  

The most interesting (and intricate) relationship in the book is
between Snape and Dumbledore.  There is lots we don't know about
either of them that will be cleared up only when that relationship is
more fully elaborated.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May 24 14:33:46 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:33:46 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <3B0C9522.14319623@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9ej64b+cded@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19355

Hagrid! Hagrid! Hagrid!

He is such a big, loveable guy! Hangs out in the pubs. Gets tipsy at 
the feasts and hits on McGonagall. Brings home impossible stray 
animals for pets. Gets into trouble when his mouth runs off without 
his brain. Loves the children. Extremely loyal to his boss. Nasty 
temper when his friends are dissed. Yup! Gotta love him! He is 
probably just the kind of guy that I would marry, if I ever married 
again. 

As for what happened to Sirius' bike after Hagrid delivered Harry to 
Dumbledore ... when Hagrid went to return it, and realized that 
Sirius was nowhere to be found ... and later discovered that Sirius 
was in Azkaban, IMHO, I think that Hagrid, good fellow that he is, 
placed the bike in his shed behind his shack. (well, it *doesn't* say 
there *isn't* one there, either, does it? :) 

On weekends, and during the summer, when the gameskeeping duties 
allow it, Hagrid dons his Harley Davidson tee-shirt, sunglasses, and 
trades his brown coat for a black leather jacket ... and off he goes! 
Yeah, I can just picture him on the back of a Harley! He looks like 
most of the bikers I see around here... all hairy & bearded. Maybe I 
will buy my Hagrid doll a set of shades.

Doreen, wondering why my Hagrid doll came with everything in his 
pockets except a pink umbrella. Anyone know where I can get one?




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu May 24 14:41:22 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:41:22 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nothing-but-FF: L&J typical?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F9083@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19356

> 
> I plead innocent!  Okay, I admit I put Fred and Angelina in there for 
> your benefit, but TiP has enough characters, including major 
> ones, who 
> aren't in canon, to keep me happy.  However, I had forgotten until I 
> read TiP 10* that Fleur and Bill actually got married.  Hmmmm...


But you cannot put fleur & bill into the "childhood friendship -> marriage"
category, because they didn't meet until Fleur was over 17, and Bill was
somewhere between 23 and 26, depending on your chronology



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 14:09:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:09:25 -0000
Subject: In defense of Dumbledore (was In defense of Snape)
In-Reply-To: <65.14cf56c9.283e6d80@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ej4ml+libp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19357

Barbara wrote:

>  Thank you!  I've always thought that Dumbledore
>  probably knew exactly what was going on.  He doesn't
>  like to tip his hand.

Jami wrote:
 
> But this infers that Dumbledore knew that Quirrell was trying to 
kill Harry, 
> and didn't do anything. I don't want to go there.

Hi, Jami!  Welcome to the wonderful world of HPforGU!

I'm not entirely comfortable going there either, but Harry himself 
surmises that it's more or less the case, and is a lot more 
comfortable with it than I am:

  "D'you think he meant you to do it [i.e., go after 
Quirrell/Voldemort]?" said Ron.  "Sending you your father's cloak and 
everything?"
  "=Well,=" Hermione exploded, "if he did--I mean to say--that's 
terrible--you could have been killed."
  "No, it isn't," Harry said thoughtfully.  "He's a funny man, 
Dumbledore.  I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance.  I think 
he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know.  I 
reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of 
stopping us, he just taught us enough to help.  I don't think it was 
an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked.  It's almost as 
if he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could . . ."  
(PS/SS 17).

I've read a piece that quotes this passage in theorizing about 
Dumbledore as God:  the kind of God who steps back and lets us make 
our own decisions and mistakes in order to preserve human freedom.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
   "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye
 Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly.
   "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he,"
 said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room.  
 "Birds of a feather."
                     -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------------





From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May 24 14:52:44 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:52:44 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
Message-ID: <9ej77s+8osv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19358

Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?  Because I do.  When 
trying to figure out why CoS is my least favorite in the series, I 
feel that Lockhart has a lot to do with that.  I know he is comic 
relief for many and he very well serves the purpose of teaching the 
lesson that looks aren't everything, but boy, did I find him annoying!
He was too exaggerated for me.  I just hated the way he kept saying 
"Harry, Harry," because he thought Harry wanted to be in the limelight 
all the time.  To me it isn't amusing when characters deliberately 
ignore other characters' opinions, needs, wishes, whatever, and that's 
what Lockhart did.  I know there are all too many people like that in 
reality, but in reality people who don't listen to me or take the time 
to understand me are people I want to avoid.  They're certainly not 
people I find funny.

I think that Trelawney is a much better example of someone in a 
position of authority who should be questioned.  Lockhart clearly 
never knew what he was doing, but Trelawney does know her Divination 
quite well.  She is also prone to the occasional correct prediction, 
which makes us wonder how real or fake she is - I like the uncertainty 
of it.  Lockhart was too in my face.  Besides, I'm not into the blond, 
chisled face, bright toothed looks anyway!

Just my two knuts.

--jenny from ravenclaw******************************




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May 24 14:56:20 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:56:20 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters: Lupin, Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <03c401c0e451$261d1d20$2698e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9ej7ek+m1jt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19359

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" >> 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
>> us Lupinlovers think the man is sexy.  <snip>I think that a man  
>> who turns into a crazed beast for a few days every month would be 
>> the type of sensitive, sympathetic lover that any woman would 
>> appreciate.  

**************************
I think that ALL men should have to turn into werewolves once a 
month, like Lupin. Then, maybe they would appreciate why we women 
turn into "crazed beasts for a few days every month".

Doreen, who is now old enough to be a beast *every* day of the month




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May 24 15:14:23 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:14:23 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <9ej77s+8osv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ej8gf+dr5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19360

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?  Because I do.  > 
<snip big diss on Lockhart>
> Just my two knuts.
> --jenny from ravenclaw
***************************************
As a person, I detest Lockhart. 
As an extremely well written character, I love what JKR has done with 
him. He is all of the annoying people I have ever known, wrapped up 
into one. Mostly, he reminds me of my mother, who at times thinks she 
knows better than anyone else how to do everything. She also has 
Lockhart's penchant for "rewriting history" to please herself. 

Lockhart is the person at work who always thinks his way of doing 
things is better than anyone else's, including the boss. He is the 
person who will tell you how you are raising your children all wrong, 
even though he has no children of his own.

Lockhart is the person who looks over your shoulder in a card game, 
which he is *not* playing, and says, "Why don't you play the Ace of 
Clubs?"

Even out of the book, I will read things that make me think of 
Lockhart. For instance, the story of the man who pushed the old 
lady's cart back to the store for her. Her purse was in it, so she 
tried to keep up with him the best that she could. When they finally 
reached the door to the store, she informed him, once she caught her 
breath, that she was merely resting against the cart. This just so 
sounded like something Lockhart would do. 

I think, in his effort to really be helpful and noticed, Lockhart's 
best intentions just have a bad-luck way of making a big mess out of 
the whole situation. He was probably one of those children who tried 
to fit in and play with the rest and always ended up either hurting 
them accidently, or ruining their toys.

Doreen, who doesn't like Lockhart the person, but feels sorry for 
him...but also thinks Lockhart the character is too funny!




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu May 24 15:24:32 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:24:32 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with Hufflepuff?
In-Reply-To: <9ee18s+m9l3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ej93g+3bn4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19361

Thanks for the responses.

It might just be me, but I think of a "hard worker" as someone who is 
industrious and with an excellent work ethic, not someone who has to 
work harder at something because he is deficient. The latter is making 
me think the number of times I've written recommendations pointing out 
that someone is a hard-worker wasn't actually doing him a favor....

Anyhow I was thinking about Hufflepuffs, Slytherins, Gryffindors and 
Ravenclaws I've met in real life. Hufflepuffs, Slytherins and 
Ravenclaws are easily found in school and at the workplace. I can sit 
here and categorize people I've known into those categories easily. I 
mean, who hasn't met a back-stabbing Slytherin at work? Or has been in 
a class with a Ravenclaw? Or worked with an industrious Hufflepuff, 
who's work ethic makes your own seem slothful? For most of these 
people I can easily categorize them as Gryffindors too. That's why 
I've always been rather confused as to why Hufflepuff has the "poor" 
reputation when Gryffindor seems to be more of a dumping House than 
Hufflepuff. A smart and courageous student can be sorted into either 
Gryffindor or Ravenclaw, but a simply courageous student probably 
wouldn't be sorted into Ravenclaw. 

Milz







From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 24 15:23:55 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:23:55 -0000
Subject: Keeper of the House (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9ei0n1+elfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ej92b+1ik3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19362

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote:
> KEEPER OF THE HOUSE
> 
> To the tune of "Master of the House" from LES MISERABLES
> 
Another classic! Bravo!

  - CMC




From bohners at pobox.com  Thu May 24 15:32:30 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:32:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of Dumbledore (was In defense of Snape)
References: <9ej4ml+libp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <044801c0e466$d72076c0$2698e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 19363

> Dumbledore.  I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance.  I think
> he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know.  I
> reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of
> stopping us, he just taught us enough to help.  I don't think it was
> an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked.  It's almost as
> if he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could . . ."
> (PS/SS 17).

> I've read a piece that quotes this passage in theorizing about
> Dumbledore as God:  the kind of God who steps back and lets us make
> our own decisions and mistakes in order to preserve human freedom.

I think Dumbledore does, in many ways, fulfill a God-like role in the
series.  He's not an allegorical character like Aslan or the North Wind,
he's just a very wise and powerful human wizard:  but his relationship to
the characters -- to Harry and to Snape in particular -- is Godlike.

His decision not to intervene and "save the day" on Harry's behalf even
though he possesses the power to do so may seem inexplicable on a human
level, but not (to me, anyway) on a divine one.  Rather than constantly
bailing people out of situations, D. is more interested in giving them the
chance to learn and grow through their struggles.  He supplies information,
guidance, and comfort to those who come to him:  but he does not make life
easier for them or take away their problems with a wave of his wand.  And he
is always ready to give a second chance to anyone who comes to him humbly
seeking his forgiveness or his help.

I forgot to say this in my previous message, although I've said it before in
e-mail:  anothe reason I identify with, even empathize with, Snape is that
more than anyone else in the series, he fulfills the role of the redeemed
sinner saved by grace (in this case, Dumbledore's).  Snape has come from a
long way down and he's still got a long way to go -- but his gratitude for
the mercy he's been shown by Dumbledore, and the respect, loyalty and
obedience he shows to the Headmaster as a result, is a promising start.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu May 24 15:35:17 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:35:17 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <9ej8gf+dr5p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ej9nl+sv88@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19364

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?  Because I do.  > 
> <snip big diss on Lockhart>
> > Just my two knuts.
> > --jenny from ravenclaw
> ***************************************
> As a person, I detest Lockhart. 
> As an extremely well written character, I love what JKR has done 
with 
> him. He is all of the annoying people I have ever known, wrapped up 
> into one. Mostly, he reminds me of my mother, who at times thinks 
she 
> knows better than anyone else how to do everything. She also has 
> Lockhart's penchant for "rewriting history" to please herself. 
> 
> Lockhart is the person at work who always thinks his way of doing 
> things is better than anyone else's, including the boss. He is the 
> person who will tell you how you are raising your children all 
wrong, 
> even though he has no children of his own.
> 
> Lockhart is the person who looks over your shoulder in a card game, 
> which he is *not* playing, and says, "Why don't you play the Ace of 
> Clubs?"
> 
> Even out of the book, I will read things that make me think of 
> Lockhart. For instance, the story of the man who pushed the old 
> lady's cart back to the store for her. Her purse was in it, so she 
> tried to keep up with him the best that she could. When they finally 
> reached the door to the store, she informed him, once she caught her 
> breath, that she was merely resting against the cart. This just so 
> sounded like something Lockhart would do. 
> 
> I think, in his effort to really be helpful and noticed, Lockhart's 
> best intentions just have a bad-luck way of making a big mess out of 
> the whole situation. He was probably one of those children who tried 
> to fit in and play with the rest and always ended up either hurting 
> them accidently, or ruining their toys.
> 
> Doreen, who doesn't like Lockhart the person, but feels sorry for 
> him...but also thinks Lockhart the character is too funny!

The one thing that distinguishes Lockhart from other know-it-alls, is 
that Lockhart is really clueless. Some know-it-alls really DO know 
what they are talking about. Lockhart was a fraud through and through.

Milz




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 24 15:41:41 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:41:41 -0000
Subject: Lupin, Once and Future Professor
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523152445.02ef8390@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9eja3l+q5e9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19365

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 04:17 PM 5/23/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:

> 
> It says, "Professor R. J. Lupin," on his briefcase.  > 
> Also, anyone have any idea what the "J" stands for?


Perhaps it stands for Jack, as in "Wolfman Jack."

   - CMC




From margdean at erols.com  Thu May 24 15:03:09 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:03:09 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lockhart - Yuck!
References: <9ej77s+8osv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B0D22AD.82F179E@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19366

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?  Because I do.  When
> trying to figure out why CoS is my least favorite in the series, I
> feel that Lockhart has a lot to do with that.  I know he is comic
> relief for many and he very well serves the purpose of teaching the
> lesson that looks aren't everything, but boy, did I find him annoying!

No, indeed you're not the only one!  CoS is probably my least
favorite in the series so far, simply because Lockhart gets on my
nerves so badly.  He's like fingers on a blackboard!  Mind you,
I'm not faulting JKR for creating him.  She just characterized
him all too well.

I find I like my heroes (and other characters, too) to have
courage, competence, and compassion.  Lockhart has =none= of
these.  He's a coward, he sucks as a wizard, and cares about
nobody but himself.  As such, of course, he makes a perfect foil
(gold foil?) for the other characters who =do= possess these
qualities (or some of them:  Snape is interesting because he has
the first two but not, by and large, the third), but somehow that
doesn't make him any easier to take.  For me, at least -- YMMV!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 16:17:16 2001
From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:17:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <OE73GERxKF83Emd59fc00002539@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010524161716.7691.qmail@web3204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19367

Hi everyone~! I just got into the whole HP bit (I
resisted as long as possible because I knew if I liked
it that I'd get sucked into it utterly... and I found
out that I /love/ it I know I'm a lost case) and I
thought I'd drop my two cents here ^.-

Uu~m... my favorite character thus far (I've only got
up to PoA) has definately got to be Harry. A pretty
obvious choice but he's got a lot of the qualities
that I look for in my favorite characters -- he's
pretty clever and quickwitted, determined and oddly
enough he has a few more qualities that really give
him points in my book: he's a wizard, he's got a
crappy past and he has a scar. ( ^^; My all-time
favorite anime character is also a magician with a
scar that he receieved at a traumatic time in his
life. Go fig. ^^; )

Several of my friends told me I would love the HP
series and said there was a few characters that I
would like a lot. But I'm not sure if Harry was one of
them. o.o;

Like a lot of people, the way a character takes to or
percieves Harry will pretty much determine what I
think of that character. Therefore, I like Ron,
Hermione, Hagrid and Dumbledore. Lupin ~ I like Lupin
:D I can't wait to see more of Sirius Black either.
The Weasely twins are a barrel of laughs and Lee
Jordan's Quidditch commentaries are definately parts
to look forward for me :D 

And fairly predictably I don't like Draco much nor do
I like Snape. Though Snape was a bit of a special case
in the Like Dept. on my end until he started acting
downright mean towards Harry in PoA. Bah. That lost
Snape a lot of points in my eyes. -.-* Is he going to
redeem himself in GoF?

Okay, just my two cents. ^.- Back into Lurkdom now :)

Michi

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 16:57:30 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:57:30 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9ei763+jlna@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ejehq+6j4b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19368

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> > >Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me - "
> > >
> > > and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen pounced."
> > 
> > If there was only one legal move that the knight could make at
> > that point, and the chess board obeyed the ordinary rule that
> > one a player has touched a piece they have to move it, even if
> > they suddenly realise that they have made a mistake, the queen
> > would be legally entitled to take Ron the instant he moved,
> > though it is better etiquette (and psychology) to wait till the
> > piece actually lands on the disputed square.
> 
> But how does Ron have only one legal move?  From any square, a
> knight has at least two moves.

I think this supposed flint is not as horrendous as our chess-playing
contingent makes it sound.  My impression from the reading is that
Ron is gawky for his age, and therefore is probably long-legged
enough to move to the next square in one step.  After all, Ron does
not say that he'll move "one *square* forward".  And "forward"
needn't mean "remaining in the same file".

I envision his move being along the lines of going two ranks
*forward* and one file over (like Na3-b5).  And with his long legs,
he would only say, "I take one step forward".

As for legal moves....yes, a knight has at least two legal moves,
*if* those squares are open to him (i.e. not occupied by pieces from
his side), *and* if moving the knight does not expose the king to
check....

....Craig




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 17:01:44 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:01:44 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fave Characters
References: <20010524161716.7691.qmail@web3204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c0e473$42ea57c0$f22d07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19369

Ahem. I wanted to post this on ff.net, but didn't dare to. It is silly. It
is a (sorta) love letter. Bare with me, please?




Dear Professor Snape,

With great hesitance I finally decided to write you this letter, with which
I want to express my utmost respect and adoration.

I know that you are a modest person who shies away from public recognition
and personal relationships, and I realize that you want to stay low profile
at Hogwarts.

Therefore I am very sorry that I wrote that letter to Mr. Rickman, who is
going to play you in the upcoming movie, and caused that stir about your
person. I shouldn't have said that he isn't thin enough and doesn't look
good with black hair. But I am sure the Obliviators, that arrived half an
hour after he had informed the police of the enclosed wobble-leg curse,
cleaned his memory up and Muggle-Wizarding relations are back to normal now.
And after a few months, everyone will have forgotten the article that Rita
Skeeter published in the Daily Prophet, in which she said that due to the
protests of your girlfriend you would take over the part yourself. I really
don't know how she got that idea.

Honestly, I never claimed I was your girlfriend.

I hope you received the bottle of Shampoo and the Electric Toothbrush I sent
you. I realize of course that rose blossom isn't the most perfect scent and
that the Brush is the purple kid-version but it was all in could organize in
the short time. And I am sorry about all the commotion the ten owls must
have caused - but I was sure you could use the additional food, and the
packet got a bit heavy in the process. Hopefully the strawberries were still
okay but there was no way I could've known that the cream suspender would
explode during air-travel. By the way, I wouldn't dare to criticize you, but
did you ever think of putting on a little weight? The way you walk around
with your robes fluttering everywhere, thin as a stick. That just can't be
healthy!

And you should really reconsider your teaching methods, I heard many
complaints about the unfair and cruel way you treat your students. Don't
think I'm complaining, I like men who know how to handle matters in a tough
way, but this just isn't good for your reputation. I know of course that you
had a rough time growing up and that you think you are doing just the best
for your pupils. Prepare them for the hard, unfair world that awaits them,
and get them to learn zealously because you want them to have the same
opportunities that you had. The concept of tough love is one I admire.

Your foray into the community of the Death Eaters certainly taught you
important lessons and I realize that at this time of your life it was the
only way you could go. Bullied by James Potter and his cronies, your
intelligence and sharp wit cast aside by the pranks and disrespect of four
half-grown wizards that never accepted you.

But how courageous was your decision to turn your back on those dark days
and return to the moral side and see the light! I shudder when I think about
the dangers that came upon you when you offered to spy for Professor
Dumbledore. You saved many lifes and protected innocent people that would
have died otherwise.

It is sad that you never got any recognition for those tasks and I know that
it must anger you - especially since Harry Potter, who practically did
nothing, just was at the right place to the right time, gets hailed as the
saviour of the Wizarding World everywhere.

I wish I could find words to comfort you, but since I know that you don't
appreciate the fuss and rather just would get on with it, I will just say
that I see you for the silent hero you are.

Still, I think that your talent isn't fully appreciated at Hogwarts and that
your kind of man is a rare appearance nowadays. Sadly enough the wizarding
world of today has seldom generated such brilliant minds as yours is. Your
knowledge and wisdom make my knees shake with awe.

Maybe we could meet sometime?


Sincerely,

Mrs. Snape

P.S.: Sorry for stalking you.


A/N: Thanks for putting up with me??? Oh well, I am obsessed, what can I
say. This is not autobiographical - at least not entirely *hangs head in
shame*



_________________________________________________________
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu May 24 17:13:33 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 24 May 2001 17:13:33 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <990724414.189680.25438.cd@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19370


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Miscellaneous Graphics/potter.zip 
  Uploaded by : nera at rconnect.com 
  Description :  

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Miscellaneous%20Graphics/potter.zip 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

nera at rconnect.com
 







From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 17:14:10 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:14:10 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <9ej77s+8osv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ejfh3+rg7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19371

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?  Because I do. 
When 
> trying to figure out why CoS is my least favorite in the series, I 
> feel that Lockhart has a lot to do with that.  I know he is comic 
> relief for many and he very well serves the purpose of teaching the 
> lesson that looks aren't everything, but boy, did I find him 
annoying!
> He was too exaggerated for me.  I just hated the way he kept saying 
> "Harry, Harry," because he thought Harry wanted to be in the 
limelight 
> all the time.  To me it isn't amusing when characters deliberately 
> ignore other characters' opinions, needs, wishes, whatever, and 
that's 
> what Lockhart did.  I know there are all too many people like that 
in 
> reality, but in reality people who don't listen to me or take the 
time 
> to understand me are people I want to avoid.  They're certainly not 
> people I find funny.
> 
> I think that Trelawney is a much better example of someone in a 
> position of authority who should be questioned.  Lockhart clearly 
> never knew what he was doing, but Trelawney does know her
Divination 
> quite well.  She is also prone to the occasional correct
prediction, 
> which makes us wonder how real or fake she is - I like the 
uncertainty 
> of it.  Lockhart was too in my face.  Besides, I'm not into the 
blond, 
> chisled face, bright toothed looks anyway!
> 
> Just my two knuts.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw******************************
Jenny, Jenny, Jenny......
It is a measure of JKR's writing skills that Lockheart as a character 
cuts so very close to the bone.  If he were not so well constructed a 
character, his flaws would not set our teeth on edge the way they do. 
 I am reminded of Sigouney Weaver, an excellent actress who has 
portrayed some unsympathetic characters.  I find myself disliking her 
personally, and I have to tell myself that she is acting a character 
in a film.  So it is with Gilderoy, the man we love to loathe.

Haggridd




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Thu May 24 17:21:35 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:21:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fave Characters
References: <20010524161716.7691.qmail@web3204.mail.yahoo.com> <00aa01c0e473$42ea57c0$f22d07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3B0D431E.5222C13A@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 19372

Hello All!

Dinah wrote:

> Ahem. I wanted to post this on ff.net, but didn't dare to. It is silly. It
> is a (sorta) love letter. Bare with me, please?
>
> Dear Professor Snape,
>
> With great hesitance I finally decided to write you this letter, with which
> I want to express my utmost respect and adoration.
>
> I know that you are a modest person who shies away from public recognition
> and personal relationships, and I realize that you want to stay low profile
> at Hogwarts.
>
> Therefore I am very sorry that I wrote that letter to Mr. Rickman, who is
> going to play you in the upcoming movie, and caused that stir about your
> person. I shouldn't have said that he isn't thin enough and doesn't look
> good with black hair. But I am sure the Obliviators, that arrived half an
> hour after he had informed the police of the enclosed wobble-leg curse,
> cleaned his memory up and Muggle-Wizarding relations are back to normal now.
> And after a few months, everyone will have forgotten the article that Rita
> Skeeter published in the Daily Prophet, in which she said that due to the
> protests of your girlfriend you would take over the part yourself. I really
> don't know how she got that idea.
>
> Honestly, I never claimed I was your girlfriend.
> Mrs. Snape
>
> P.S.: Sorry for stalking you.

ROTFLMAO!!! Thanx Dinah, I needed a pick me up for today, and this is it! It has a certain poetic quality, don't you think? You proclaim your love wonderfully!

thanx for the chuckle Dinah!

Hugs
Jamieson




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 08:17:20 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:17:20 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Saying Voldemort's name
References: <9eemoe+94b3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE21z2Mb1s7nlT2NqFJ00002035@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19373

  You can't read too much into any one use of any name (e.g. I'm not 
  going to conclude that Snape is really a DE because the one time he 
  mentions Voldemort he calls him the Dark Lord), but there do seem to 
  be trends.

  Amy Z

  I don't think Snape is a DE, though why he switched sides is a mystery to me. Why didn't he just stay evil? I think his use of "Dark Lord" is force of habit more than anything, though how can anyone help fearing Voldie? He's ghastly and beyond cruel. I hope Snape isn't killed off. *frowns sadly*

  Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 17:40:02 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:40:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Faves
In-Reply-To: <990704316.1629.96861.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010524174002.2308.qmail@web3006.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19374

My fave characters...hmm..I liked Hermione the second
I saw her, she's just like me. I like Neville. I'm
thinking of writing a fic about him. I like Bill,
cause he's cool and has long hair. I think the Weasley
Twins are adorable, and so is Ginny. I like Hedwig.
Sirus Black kicks ass (but I don't think he's sexy).
Same with Lupin. 

And *ducks the curses of others) I don't like Snape,
Voldy, Draco, or anyone who is either a Death
eater/Slythern. I honestly cant stand one of them. And
normally, I like the bad guys. Go fig. 

--Neth, who is looking up all she can on Ravenclaw so
she can write a fic about a group of kids that are at
Hogwarts same as Harry. (Anyone want to help me? I
need names of students there in Harry's year, Head of
House (It's Flitwick, yes?), The Quidditch team, and
other little useful info to make it believable)

**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**


=====
http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. 
Two girls. 
One Website. 
Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
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From dosser at btinternet.com  Thu May 24 17:52:16 2001
From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:52:16 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
References: <9ei763+jlna@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004301c0e47a$4abcbcc0$706a01d5@chris>

No: HPFGUIDX 19375

Robert Carnegie wrote the following:

"But how does Ron have only one legal move?  From any square, a
knight has at least two moves.

Robert Carnegie, exposing ignorance
Glasgow, Scotland"

Not true, I am afraid.  A knight may have anything from eight to zero legal moves, depending on the position of yours and your opponents pieces.  If, for example, a knight stands on a square in the corner of the board and the two possible squares it could move to are occupied by your own pieces, then it has zero legal moves.  Sorry if this is pedantic.

Chris
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rja.carnegie at excite.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 6:45 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
  > >Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me - "
  > >
  > > and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen pounced."
  > 
  > If there was only one legal move that the knight could make at that point,
  > and the chess board obeyed the ordinary rule that one a player has touched a
  > piece they have to move it, even if they suddenly realise that they have
  > made a mistake, the queen would be legally entitled to take Ron the instant
  > he moved, though it is better etiquette (and psychology) to wait till the
  > piece actually lands on the disputed square.

  But how does Ron have only one legal move?  From any square, a
  knight has at least two moves.

  Robert Carnegie, exposing ignorance
  Glasgow, Scotland

  "I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
  office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
  Stupid Things Overheard)



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu May 24 17:56:57 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:56:57 -0000
Subject: In defense of Dumbledore (was In defense of Snape)
In-Reply-To: <9ej4ml+libp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eji19+pvin@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19376

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Barbara wrote:
> 
> >  Thank you!  I've always thought that Dumbledore
> >  probably knew exactly what was going on.  He doesn't
> >  like to tip his hand.
> 
> Jami wrote:
>  
> > But this infers that Dumbledore knew that Quirrell was trying to 
> kill Harry, 
> > and didn't do anything. I don't want to go there.
> 
> Hi, Jami!  Welcome to the wonderful world of HPforGU!
> 
> I'm not entirely comfortable going there either, but Harry himself 
> surmises that it's more or less the case, and is a lot more 
> comfortable with it than I am:
> 
	I wouldn't say Dumbledore didn't do anything! Snape, Hagrid and 
McGonagall and Firenze were all watching Harry like a hawk.  Attacking  
Quirrel prior to his attempt on the Stone would have done Dumbledore no 
good. Voldemort would simply have abandoned Quirrel and returned in 
some other form, putting Harry and The Stone in even greater danger. 
	Dumbledore allows Harry to get into risky situations, but if he 
didn't, if he sheltered Harry instead, would Harry have been prepared 
to resist Voldemort in GoF? 
Pippin






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 18:10:36 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:10:36 -0000
Subject: Lupin, Once and Future Professor - Keeper of the House
In-Reply-To: <9eja3l+q5e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ejiqs+90kg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19377

Dave (?) wrote:

> > It says, "Professor R. J. Lupin," on his briefcase.  > 
> > Also, anyone have any idea what the "J" stands for?

CMC wrote:

> Perhaps it stands for Jack, as in "Wolfman Jack."

Or Jamieson, as in "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve."  I've been suspicious 
of Jamieson for some time now.

BTW, Lisa, great job!  Filch gets filked!

Amy Z





From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 18:28:42 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:28:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c0e473$42ea57c0$f22d07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010524182842.32497.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19378


--- Dinah <bludger_witch at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem. I wanted to post this on ff.net, but didn't dare to. It is
> silly. It is a (sorta) love letter. Bare with me, please?

<giggle> *I* think you should put it up! It was wonderful...even though
it was a love letter. I thank you for making it non-mushy.

> It is sad that you never got any recognition for those tasks and I
> know that it must anger you - especially since Harry Potter, who
> practically did nothing, just was at the right place to the right
> time, gets hailed as the saviour of the Wizarding World everywhere.

<grin> Ooo, I bet that might annoy some avid Potterites! But looking at
the world through Snape-colored spectacles, I can see the validity in
the above statement... 

> P.S.: Sorry for stalking you.

<giggles again> I must say that I hated Snape before coming this list.
However, the iciness I bear against him has been melting a bit.
I would never have considered Snape a...um...romance object just from
reading the the canon. Same with Draco Malfoy, thought he was a
horrible git who deserves to be left alone in a locked room with
Buckbeak for a bit. (Hey, that rhymed!) But the possibilities that
people paint with their words on this list and in fanfic does open my
mind to these characters.  

Dangit, I want the next book so I can see the development of *all* the
characters. At the very least, I want a date when the book will come
out so that I can start a countdown. Part of me wishes very much that I
hadn't climbed on the HP train until all the books were written... 

~Amber


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 18:59:00 2001
From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:59:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of Dumbledore (was In defense of Snape)
In-Reply-To: <9eji19+pvin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010524185900.80260.qmail@web5406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19379

--- foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Barbara wrote:
> > 
> > >  Thank you!  I've always thought that Dumbledore
> > >  probably knew exactly what was going on.  He doesn't
> > >  like to tip his hand.
> > 
> > Jami wrote:
> >  
> > > But this infers that Dumbledore knew that Quirrell was trying to 
> > kill Harry, 
> > > and didn't do anything. I don't want to go there.
> > 
> > Hi, Jami!  Welcome to the wonderful world of HPforGU!
> > 
> > I'm not entirely comfortable going there either, but Harry himself 
> > surmises that it's more or less the case, and is a lot more 
> > comfortable with it than I am:
> > 
> 	I wouldn't say Dumbledore didn't do anything! Snape, Hagrid and 
> McGonagall and Firenze were all watching Harry like a hawk.  Attacking  
> Quirrel prior to his attempt on the Stone would have done Dumbledore no 
> good. Voldemort would simply have abandoned Quirrel and returned in 
> some other form, putting Harry and The Stone in even greater danger. 
> 	Dumbledore allows Harry to get into risky situations, but if he 
> didn't, if he sheltered Harry instead, would Harry have been prepared 
> to resist Voldemort in GoF? 
> Pippin
> 
> 

Hello.  I am uncomfortable with the idea of the idea of Dumbledore knowing that
Quirrel was after Harry and not doing anything about it, but I've been
pondering this all afternoon and now I have a few thoughts.

Unlike Fudge, Dumbledore never seemed to thing that Voldemort would never rise
to power again.  It seems from GoF that he has been waiting for him to
resurface all these years.  Maybe they were trying to catch Voldemort in a more
vulnerable form to prevent this?

Maybe it's Harry's destiny to defeat Voldemort in the end.  Maybe Dumbledore
senses this and instead of preventing it, he is making sure that Harry gains
the necessary training for this feat.  (It would be a little anti-climatic if
anyone but Harry defeated the Dark Lord).

Anyway, those are my thoughts.  And, btw, does Dumbledore remind anyone else of
Lloyd Alexander's Dallben?

- Jamie



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From nera at rconnect.com  Thu May 24 19:06:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:06:06 -0000
Subject: Lupin, Once and Future Professor - Keeper of the House
In-Reply-To: <9ejiqs+90kg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ejm2u+6fhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19380

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Dave (?) wrote:
> 
> > > It says, "Professor R. J. Lupin," on his briefcase.  > 
> > > Also, anyone have any idea what the "J" stands for?
> 
> CMC wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps it stands for Jack, as in "Wolfman Jack."
> 
> Or Jamieson, as in "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve."  I've been 
suspicious 
> of Jamieson for some time now.
> 
> BTW, Lisa, great job!  Filch gets filked!
> 
> Amy Z
*************
Or maybe it is Joanne :) Or maybe it is Remus James and James is 
James Remus ... step-brothers. :))

Doreen, who would love a twist like that.




From janey_13 at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 19:16:30 2001
From: janey_13 at yahoo.com (janey_13 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:16:30 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010523191939.12766.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ejmme+jsr7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19381

Ron Weasley is definately my favorite character (after Harry of 
course!) What draws me most to him is his sarcastic sense of humor.  
While Ron is often critized for how he abandons Harry and Hermione in 
during arguments, I do see his point of view and I myself probably 
would act that way (so, I'm childish!).  And I do also have a thing 
for redheads!

Rebecca




From angela_burgess at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 19:48:58 2001
From: angela_burgess at yahoo.com (Angela Burgess)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fave Characters
Message-ID: <20010524194858.29412.qmail@web3603.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19382

Original Quote:
I was sad that when Ron tried to make an effort to
make up with Harry, 
Harry just coldly shrugged him off. I thought that was
mean of him. 
Hermione was surprisingly tender when she spoke of
Ron's jealousy toward 
him. I, too, get tired of hearing about him.

Vicky

While you may be tired of hearing about him, the books
are called "Harry Potter and...".  While all three of
them are main characters, Harry is THE main character.
 If JKR decides to do spin-offs, they could be "Ron
Weasley and..." or "Hermione Granger and...". 
However, the point is that everything we talk about
would not exist if it were not for Harry.  While we
love Ron and Hermione, the books are about Harry. 
Thus the bias towards Harry, Gryffindor, etc.  That's
the way things are.

McGonagall65  

=====
"Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls....
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one one of you be alone..."
>From The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 20:09:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:09:57 -0000
Subject: L&J typical? (FF) - Lockhart - Snape - Dumbledore in PS/SS
Message-ID: <9ejpql+jm9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19383

Heidi wrote:

>But you cannot put fleur & bill into the "childhood friendship -> 
>marriage"
>category, because they didn't meet until Fleur was over 17, and Bill 
>was
>somewhere between 23 and 26, depending on your chronology

Very true.  Actually, I think Bill is older still (~29).  Somewhere 
along the line I figured him at ~14 years older than Ron, although I 
know it's far from definite.  Anyway, the issue isn't just the 
improbability of so many childhood?marriage relationships, but the 
imagination of fanfic writers-?as Carole (I think it was) said, 
aren't there any other witches and wizards in England?  Is it 
unimaginable that any couples will form who weren't already hinted at 
in the first four novels?  However, I certainly don't mean to pick on 
Ebony, the wiz who pulled Orla Quirke out of obscurity.  Also, all of 
my criticisms should be viewed with the suspicion due to critics who 
don't write themselves.

Lockhart:

I think Lockhart is very funny (I went around the house for some days 
saying "Harry, Harry, Harry," until my dh looked like he was going to 
have one of us committed), but he's too broadly written for my taste-?
I couldn't see him as a real person.  He was just too over the top.  
OTOH, Doreen's post made me rethink this opinion.  I may know a few 
people who are actually like Lockhart (shudder).  I might have to 
revisit Prof. L.

Michi asked re: Snape (welcome to HP addiction and the list, Michi!):

>Is he going to redeem himself in GoF?

We're not telling!  Actually, we do tell quite often.  So read fast!

Jamie wrote (welcome to you too, Jamie!):

>And, btw, does Dumbledore remind anyone else of Lloyd Alexander's 
Dallben?

Yes!  But as I said, he's also unique.  The wise old wizard is not an 
archetype I get tired of?-maybe because I never had a grandfather?

Pippin, I agree that Dumbledore isn't inactive through PS/SS.  I also 
think it makes a lot of sense for Dumbledore to let Harry face these 
dangers--even Voldemort, especially, as Jamie just pointed out, since 
V is in a weakened state.  I'm just a bit nervous about how close a 
shave it was; even Dumbledore feared he'd arrived too late.  I wonder 
what he did intend to happen, then?  He returned Harry's cloak a 
second time "just in case," and if Harry is right, he wanted them to 
go after Quirrell and he also knew Harry would be confronting 
Voldemort?-yet he didn't want him to face him alone, and rushed after 
him when he learned where he was.  So what was Dumbledore's plan?  
Did he intend for there to be a showdown, but at a time that he was 
at Hogwarts to back Harry up, and he misjudged the timing?

Now I'm getting a headache.  Someone with a plot-perceptive brain, 
please figure this one out for me.

Amy Z





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 20:23:32 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:23:32 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <004301c0e47a$4abcbcc0$706a01d5@chris>
Message-ID: <9ejqk4+8gqe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19384

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Chris Dosset" <dosser at b...> wrote:
> Robert Carnegie wrote the following:
> 
> "But how does Ron have only one legal move?  From any square, a
> knight has at least two moves.
> 
> Robert Carnegie, exposing ignorance
> Glasgow, Scotland"
> 
> Not true, I am afraid.  A knight may have anything from eight to zero legal moves, depending on the position of yours and your opponents pieces.  If, for example, a knight stands on a square in the corner of the board and the two possible squares it could move to are occupied by your own pieces, then it has zero legal moves.  Sorry if this is pedantic.

No - just what I was looking for.

Thanks also to Craig.  I'm trying to figure how the "in check"
rule would fit Ron's case.  Check - that is, proofread me?

Recap: we're inferring that Ron has just one legal move on
the grounds that the white queen clobbers him on his first step.

(1) If Ron is in line between an attacking piece (a piece in
position to capture on next move) and the king, Ron can't move
legally at all without allowing the attack - knights's moves
and straight-line attacks don't work like that.  No fit.

(2) If the king _is_ in check and Ron has just one move that
places him between the attacking piece and the king, that
works - except we're told that the white queen then captures
Ron.  I think the queen must now have Ron's king in check.
Then Harry's move must either capture the queen or block
her attack, _and_ checkmate the white king - and if he blocks
the queen rather than capturing, can't she capture Harry as well?
so 
...     Ron x ?
Q x N   Harry x Q


(3) If the black king is in check from a white knight and
Ron's one legal move is to capture it.  The white queen captures
Ron, but does _not_ put black in check.

The problem with both (2) and (3) is that neither Ron nor Harry
are described capturing another piece.

I'll be embarrassed if I've overlooked someone mentioning the
last problem with the game - Harry's last, winning move (in my
copy) is "three spaces to the left", but Harry's a bishop and
can't do that?

Do you suppose the point of the exercise is that JKR wants
_not_ to be invited to solve chess puzzles?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 20:28:26 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:28:26 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid (was Chess Flint?)
References: <20010524124908.649.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE16FvkfweB3YSDVNdD00002927@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19385


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: A B 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 2:49 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid (was Chess Flint?)



  --- rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:


  > 
  > (Before you ask, I say Hagrid isn't a giant, but a
  > very large
  > human.  My theory is he was bitten by a hyperactive
  > acromantula -
  > hmm, familiar origin?)
  > 
  Except he was already over-sized at age 6. He states
  in GoF that he was big enough then to put his dad up
  on a dresser if his dad annoyed him. That's too soon
  to have been bitten by Aragog (if that's who you meant
  by the hyperactive acromantula). 

  I'd also like to add that Hagrid almost killed Karkaroff, a fierceness inherent (apparently) in giants.

  Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu May 24 20:35:21 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:35:21 -0000
Subject: - Dumbledore in PS/SS
In-Reply-To: <9ejpql+jm9p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ejra9+kprc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19386

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Pippin, I agree that Dumbledore isn't inactive through PS/SS.  I 
also 
> think it makes a lot of sense for Dumbledore to let Harry face 
these 
> dangers--even Voldemort, especially, as Jamie just pointed out, 
since 
> V is in a weakened state.  I'm just a bit nervous about how close a 
> shave it was; even Dumbledore feared he'd arrived too late.  I 
wonder 
> what he did intend to happen, then?  He returned Harry's cloak a 
> second time "just in case," and if Harry is right, he wanted them 
to 
> go after Quirrell and he also knew Harry would be confronting 
> Voldemort?-yet he didn't want him to face him alone, and rushed 
after 
> him when he learned where he was.  So what was Dumbledore's plan?  
> Did he intend for there to be a showdown, but at a time that he was 
> at Hogwarts to back Harry up, and he misjudged the timing?
> 
> Now I'm getting a headache.  Someone with a plot-perceptive brain, 
> please figure this one out for me.
> 
> Amy Z


Apparently Dumbledore *did* plan to be there when Harry had his 
confrontation with Voldy.  He was called away to London by the 
Ministry of Magic.  

pg. 194 UK:  'Professor Dumbledore left ten minutes ago,' she said 
coldly. 'He received an urgent owl from the Ministry of Magic and 
flew off for London at once.'  

pg. 215 UK:  'We must have crossed in midair.  No sooner had I 
reached London than it became clear to me that the place I should be 
was the one I just left.  I arrived just in time to pull Quirrell off 
you--' 

It seems to me from this conversation and one Harry has earlier with 
Ron and Hermione about Dumbledore's being called away, that it was a 
ruse to get Dumbledore *out of the way*.  Hmm, now I suspect Fudge 
even more.  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker

Listmum for LupinLovers: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LupinLovers

 




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 20:44:12 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:44:12 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lockhart - Yuck!
References: <9ej77s+8osv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE6i6nx8dyDd3OJXsNQ00002a81@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19387

Jenny:
Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?  

No. I dislike him as well. He was a fraud, and everyone but Hermione knew it. It grated on me how he always embarrassed Harry, and CoS is my least fav book as well. I think SS and GoF are my favs.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 20:49:01 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:49:01 -0000
Subject: Hagrid (was Chess Flint?)
In-Reply-To: <20010524124908.649.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ejs3t+dqo7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19388

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> > 
> > (Before you ask, I say Hagrid isn't a giant, but a
> > very large human.  My theory is he was bitten by a
> > hyperactive acromantula - hmm, familiar origin?)
> > 
> Except he was already over-sized at age 6. He states
> in GoF that he was big enough then to put his dad up
> on a dresser if his dad annoyed him. That's too soon
> to have been bitten by Aragog (if that's who you meant
> by the hyperactive acromantula). Hagrid freely admits
> his mother was a giant once the Skeeter article comes
> out. In view of the prejudice against giants and
> half-giants, why would he lie about it? 

Ouch - I learn yet again that it is a capital error to
theorize without reading GOF.  (Pending birthday present,
days counted but that would be personal data.)

So I'm dodging spoilers as much as I can, but I do gather
I was wrong in expecting "a Neville without a hero" :-)

> Anne (whose old wych handle has to do with an in-joke
> on the figure skating boards she frequents... Who is
> Anne Bellegerante? You can answer off list. :))

Nothing except speculation as to what A B stands for
in the particular context, recklessly taking your name
as the indefinite article - and all because my computer
had crashed and I decided to blame the old_wych I was
writing to.  With hindsight, unwise.

Taking liberties with someone's name isn't kind, I appreciate,
but I meant only to amuse and not to cause offence - I hope
that none is taken.

Incidentally, this HP community seems to have taken lightly
the irruption in its midst of Mark _Weasley_, perhaps because
Hermione.Granger is a member already...?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)






From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 20:53:46 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:53:46 -0000
Subject: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9ejqk4+8gqe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ejscq+fgaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19389

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> No - just what I was looking for.
> 
> Thanks also to Craig.  I'm trying to figure how the "in check"
> rule would fit Ron's case.  Check - that is, proofread me?

My point was that someone had said if a player touches a piece and
he has one valid move, he must complete the move.  Obviously, a move
where the piece moved exposes the king to check would not be a
valid move, but I wanted to point out that even with spaces to
move in, there are occasions when a player cannot move a given
piece.

The comment was more of a sidebar, not particularly relevant to
Ron's move.


> Recap: we're inferring that Ron has just one legal move on
> the grounds that the white queen clobbers him on his first step.

Not I.  I infer that his one Ron-sized step was to his appropriate
destination square, probably checking the other king, and that the
queen clobbered him, because he made an appropriate sacrifice.  I
don't think the queen's brusqueness can be used to infer whether
this was Ron's sole possible move.

As for Harry's move, I again simply think that the "three spaces
to the left" should be read as "spaces to the left diagonally",
again, what is stated does not contradict what's omitted.


> Do you suppose the point of the exercise is that JKR wants
> _not_ to be invited to solve chess puzzles?

Quite probably.  I'll set it up at home tonight and see what I
derive from it - if anything.

....Craig




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Thu May 24 20:58:06 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:58:06 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <9ej77s+8osv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0e494$3b369720$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19390

>Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?

No.  Lockhart, IMO is interesting and important because he is completely,
unmitigatedly and irredeemably evil (oh yes he is.  Just read that scene in
the lair of the Basilisk.  He's a professional brainwasher and he is quite
happy to leave an 11 year old kid to a horrible death if it will sell him
more books) and  *still *nothing to do with Voldemort.  Which is where
Rowling scores massively over her predecessors, tolkein and all.  Because in
other works you have the personification of evil, and all the evil
characters are working for him.  The idea that you could have little clumps
of evil off on a frolic of their own never even occurred to them
(manicheeism rules, black or white).  I think he's great.  And nothing is
too bad to happen to him.

Susan




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 24 20:58:09 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:58:09 -0000
Subject: I Act Malign (a Snape filk)
Message-ID: <9ejsl1+5asl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19391

I Act Malign 

Dedicated to Pippin

(To the tune of I Walk the Line)

(The SCENE: Potions' Class. Enter SNAPE)

SNAPE
I keep a closed mind when I teach my kids
I give a free reign to my hostile id
All kind and merciful deeds I forbid
Because they whine I act malign

I find it very, very easy to be cruel
I strictly enforce each and every rule
I make them wish they never came to school
It's so divine to act malign

I find it such fun to subtract a point
I like that Granger girl to disappoint
I love to get Potter's nose way out of joint
I don't decline to act malign

As sure as sneers are sneers and snakes are snakes
I'll snap at Neville for ev'ry mistake
As I tell him it's all for his own sake  
I'm such a swine ? I'm so malign!

  - CMC





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Thu May 24 20:58:08 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:58:08 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch timeline Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9eih1a+1drk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c0e494$3c757fc0$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19392

I've just written a legal article on HP in which I reached the conclusion
that the Quidditch cup final can't be in any other year than 1994.  This was
my reasoning :

The date of the murder of Voldermort's relatives, and the investigation of
Frank Bryce is described in GoF as "50 years before" the contemporary events
described in the remainder of the book.  FB has just returned from the war,
but because of his stiff leg it appears he was invalided out:   it is
probable that the war is still continuing.  He is 77 in the year of his
murder by Voldemort.  This year is probably 1994. There is no particular
reason why the Quidditch World Cup should take place in the same year as the
soccer World Cup except that it is a better joke if it does, but noticeably
(and very unusually)  England, Wales and Scotland failed to make it to the
finals of the soccer world cup in 1994 ( which is reflected in the
corresponding Quidditch fortunes of the three teams ; Goblet of Fire p59),
whereas both Ireland and Bulgaria, the Quidditch finalists, were also on
sparkling form in the World Cup tournament, with Hristo [Victor? anyone
speak Bulgarian out there?]  Stoitchkov of Bulgaria the joint highest goal
scorer in  the tournament.  Wild popular enthusiasm characterised the
success of the Irish team.  More evidence as to the date appears from
Chamber of Secrets, in which the 500th anniversary of Nearly Headless Nick's
death on 31 October 1492 is celebrated. Chamber of Secrets is definitely 2
years before Goblet of Fire.

Susan




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Thu May 24 20:58:14 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:58:14 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters: Lupin, Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <03c401c0e451$261d1d20$2698e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <000201c0e494$3fe467c0$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19393

>I do.  I think that a man who turns into a crazed beast for a few
> days every month would be the type of sensitive, sympathetic lover
> that any woman would appreciate

And the one thing you do know about a werewolf lover, they'll *never* do the
crass PMS comments.

Susan




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 24 21:00:32 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:00:32 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chess Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9ejqk4+8gqe@eGroups.com>
References: <004301c0e47a$4abcbcc0$706a01d5@chris>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524135405.02ef7100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19394

At 08:23 PM 5/24/01 +0000, rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:
>Recap: we're inferring that Ron has just one legal move on
>the grounds that the white queen clobbers him on his first step.

Ron could have other legal moves, but they may serve only to
throw the game to White.  Actually, to my POV this *must*
be the case: If Ron has only one legal move, then it isn't a
sacrifice, it's a forced move.  Sacrificing means choosing
"what is right over what is easy."  Ron voluntarily choses
the move that expels him from the game, but that aids his
friends!  (Foreshadowing of things to come regarding Ron's
role in VWII?!)



                         -- Dave




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 21:00:33 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:00:33 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9ej64b+cded@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ejsph+5etq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19395

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Wondering why my Hagrid doll came with everything in his 
> pockets except a pink umbrella. Anyone know where I can get one?

www.barbie.com ?

Or order strawberry daiquiri.

Asking strange men to buy you drinks?  You're the kind of broad
my mother told me to avoid.  (And have I?  Yes, unfortunately.)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 21:21:15 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:21:15 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape love letter
References: <20010524161716.7691.qmail@web3204.mail.yahoo.com> <00aa01c0e473$42ea57c0$f22d07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <OE36MhLPBLYdWoVQAiE00002f0e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19396

Sorry for this pointless post, but I found it *hilarious* as well. :) It was beautiful, and just the thing for a Snape lover like me. Thanks a bunch. It was great. :) Now I'm happy.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 21:32:26 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:32:26 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fave Characters
References: <20010524194858.29412.qmail@web3603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE427kicP3lh9uKwdUc0000290e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19397

  Angela:
  While you may be tired of hearing about him, the books
  are called "Harry Potter and...".  While all three of
  them are main characters, Harry is THE main character...While we
  love Ron and Hermione, the books are about Harry. 

  I realize that, but that's why I get tired of hearing about him. So dang popular. I mean, he's not a bad guy, and very loyal, but Hermione is definitely better. I mean, Harry would never have gotten to do what he gets credit for without their help. I know Ron and Hermione get credit as well, but it isn't fair that he gets more of it.

  Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Thu May 24 21:32:52 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:32:52 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] - Dumbledore in PS/SS
Message-ID: <6a.e68c0db.283ed804@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19398

In a message dated 5/24/2001 4:40:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
pbnesbit at msn.com writes:

<< pg. 194 UK:  'Professor Dumbledore left ten minutes ago,' she said 
 coldly. 'He received an urgent owl from the Ministry of Magic and 
 flew off for London at once.'  >>  I always thought that owl was a red 
herring (ha ha) sent by Quirrell to get Dumbledore as far away as possible as 
he made his move for the Stone. However .. 
 
 <<It seems to me from this conversation and one Harry has earlier with 
 Ron and Hermione about Dumbledore's being called away, that it was a 
 ruse to get Dumbledore *out of the way*.  Hmm, now I suspect Fudge 
 even more.   >> I think Fudge is a DE too, whether or not he sent that owl 
to Dumbledore. 

I think there's conflicting evidence as to whether or not Dumbledore is a 
"God" who waits and watches as events unfurl. At this point in the series, I 
believe that Dumbledore realizes that Harry must face Voldemort in some type 
of ultimate clash of good vs. evil. Being on the side of good, Dumbledore 
will do all he can to ensure that Harry is the victor.

On a related note, was anyone else as disappointed as I to learn in GoF that 
the only reason baby Harry had defeated Voldemort the first time was due to 
Lily's sacrificial death? I'd always thought that it was Harry's kinetic 
wizarding powers that resulted in Voldy's defeat.

Jami 



From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 21:37:54 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:37:54 -0000
Subject: Quidditch timeline Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9eih1a+1drk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ejuvi+j60d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19399

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
> 
> In Fantastic Beasts,

Nearly ;-)

> It states that "the year 1473 saw the first ever
> Quidditch World Cup..." and also that "The World Cup has since been 
> held every four years"
> 
> Well, OK, so they could have missed a few (for major wars etc.), but 
> like the Olympics may have kept to the schedule - ie: had an 8 or 12 
> year gap where some had been missed.  Unfortunately this leads to a 
> date of 1995 for the GoF event, which from Nearly Headless Nicks 
> deathday party should in fact be 1994. 
> 
> Now, the last bit of evidence comes in GoF when Bagman is 
> commentating.  He says... "Welcome to the final on the four hundred 
> and twenty-second Quidditch World Cup!"  Now this just has to be a 
> Flint.  If the cup started in 1473 and runs every 4 years, it would 
> only be the 129th Cup in 1995 if none had been missed.
> 
> I guess Bagman meant 122nd Cup and that somewhere after one of the 
> 'gaps' the actual year the event was held on moved back a year (so we 
> get 1994 instead of 1995).

Commentators.  What'll you do?  It isn't even the 422nd _year_ of
the World Cup - or of the "proper" World Cup since non-European teams
first played in the 17th century - and it's probably a bit too much
of a stretch to guess that the actual Cup trophy they play for was
first used 422 years ago, before which either there was a new trophy
each year or a trophy was used which was found to be a transfigured
small troll, which greatly spoiled the winning team's enthusiasm for
the customary rowdy celebration of drinking Butterbeer from it,
particulary once it had been de-transfigured.

My highly defective knowledge of the World Cup in socker indicates
that qualifying matches start a good while before the season of
finals (like, years).  Is it likewise with Quidditch?

I think that, like Star Trek, JKR has made up her mind that she
really doesn't want to worry about dates, and so she throws in
anything approximately right.  Likewise phases of the moon, for poor
old Remus Lupin - if JKR says it's full moon, it jolly well _is_
full moon.

But it occurred to me on first looking into Vander Ark's Lexicon
that the cat would be set amongst the Animagi by the suggestion
that perhaps the wizarding world uses a different calendar to Muggles
- perhaps the Julian calendar, perhaps one invented by Uric the
Oddball - for instance, so that astrology comes out right (sometimes).

It probably won't take long to "disprove" this, but if it annoys you
just for a few minutes then it's been worthwhile :-)  Communications
to wizards in the Muggle world (e.g. Harry's letter) will of course
refer to dates in Muggle reckoning - you don't catch me out _that_
easily - by the same method that's used to address Harry's letters to
wherever he's going to be by the time they gets there and also (let me
make another annoyingly stubborn suggestion) to change Lupin's
suitcase label to read "Professor R. J. Lupin" while he's got the job
and the title at Hogwarts.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 21:53:40 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:53:40 -0000
Subject: - Dumbledore in PS/SS
In-Reply-To: <6a.e68c0db.283ed804@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ejvt4+os86@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19400

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote:
> was anyone else as disappointed as I to learn in GoF that
> the only reason baby Harry had defeated Voldemort the first
> time was due to Lily's sacrificial death? I'd always thought
> that it was Harry's kinetic wizarding powers that resulted in
> Voldy's defeat.

Not disappointed - because Dumbledore hinted at it at the end
of PS, and Tom Riddle realised it too in CS and kicked himself
(figuratively, I think).

When I get to see GOF presumably I'll understand better, but from
an idea of Roger Zelazny's later Amber novels - that powerful
wizards get lazy - my current idea is that Voldemort aimed a
simple killing stroke at Harry, which a baby wizard couldn't
possibly deflect but which Lily's sacrifice caused to disempower
him as well as killing her.  "If there is one thing Voldemort cannot
understand, it is love," said Dumbledore; so I'm figuring that it
never occurred to Voldemort that Lily would stand against him, a far
more powerful wizard, when he'd already offered to let her live and
only kill Harry.  Sort of the reverse of the famous wisdom of
Solomon.  And when they meet in PS, I think Voldemort _still_ hasn't
figured it out: it's been bugging him all that time.

Tom Riddle did understand (he understood Ginny too), but Voldemort
isn't Tom Riddle any more: isn't even that human.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 21:59:40 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:59:40 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <000001c0e494$3b369720$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9ek08c+bje5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19401

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> >Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?
> 
> No.  Lockhart, IMO is interesting and important because he is completely,
> unmitigatedly and irredeemably evil (oh yes he is.  Just read that scene in
> the lair of the Basilisk.  He's a professional brainwasher and he is quite
> happy to leave an 11 year old kid to a horrible death if it will sell him
> more books) and  *still *nothing to do with Voldemort.  Which is where
> Rowling scores massively over her predecessors, tolkein and all.  Because in
> other works you have the personification of evil, and all the evil
> characters are working for him.  The idea that you could have little clumps
> of evil off on a frolic of their own never even occurred to them
> (manicheeism rules, black or white).  I think he's great.  And nothing is
> too bad to happen to him.

Oh, Tolkien does do that too, I think.  Gandalf's White opposing
number is playing his own game (shows up again at the end, too),
and so, after all, is Gollum.

Back on topic, I still think Snape has his own agenda in PS,
different from Dumbledore's.  But I really _must_ see GOF to
get the rest of their story so far...

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 24 22:02:00 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:02:00 -0000
Subject: I Act Malign (a Snape filk)
In-Reply-To: <9ejsl1+5asl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ek0cp+ge1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19402

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> I Act Malign 
> 
> Dedicated to Pippin
> 
> (To the tune of I Walk the Line)
> 
> (The SCENE: Potions' Class. Enter SNAPE)
> 
> SNAPE
> I keep a closed mind when I teach my kids
> I give a free reign to my hostile id
> All kind and merciful deeds I forbid
> Because they whine I act malign...

Brilliant!  The last line of that first verse _must_ be your
new signature line - or do I mean signature tune?




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu May 24 22:04:17 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:04:17 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010523221635.99669.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ek0h1+8k4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19403

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> I think for what it's worth that my favorite character
> as far as humor is concerned is Gilderoy Lockhart. 
> Every scene he was in was so funny I was splitting my
> sides at the same time I was trying to read to my kids
> (and they were literally rolling around laughing--it
> made it hard to get them to settle down at bedtime,
> frankly).  Rita Skeeter is a close second for humor,
> but Lockhart wins the LOL prize hands down.  (Of
> course we're laughing at him, not with him.) Lockhart
> was an inspired creation, and I couldn't help but
> wonder whether her encounters with some Fleet Street
> reporters after JKR became quite famous were
> responsible for the creation of Rita.

I am completely with you on GL, Barbara.  Until your post, I couldn't 
recall anyone other than me saying they liked Lockhart.  I echo every 
comment you've made about him.  Skeeter, otoh, is the character I 
dislike most in the series.  I think that's personal, though; I've 
had lots of experience with people (almost entirely family) talking 
behind my back, and exaggerating like you can't believe--often to the 
point that the story is nearly total bull.  So, I guess she hits a 
sore point with me.  Funnily enough, the other characters that get on 
my nerves are the house elves.  I think it's the way they talk, plus 
Dobby's somewhat over-done fawning over Harry in CoS...

Kelley




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 22:08:15 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:08:15 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice
References: <6a.e68c0db.283ed804@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OE76aDXYhko0nQZEMO600002990@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19404

Speaking of Lily's sacrifice, now that Voldy's got some of Harry's blood, does this entitle him to the same protection Lily afforded Harry?

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 22:29:16 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:29:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9ek0h1+8k4a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010524222916.78666.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19405

  Funnily enough, the other characters that get on 
> my nerves are the house elves.  I think it's the way
> they talk, plus Dobby's somewhat over-done fawning
over Harry in CoS...
> 
> Kelley

I know.  The house elves are very Jar-Jar Binks.  Sets
my teeth on edge.  But I didn't say I like Lockhart; I
think he's funny.  (Remember, I said laughing at, not
with.)  If I actually had to be in the room with him,
I'd probably think he was insufferable.

My kids really enjoy the house elves, though, and my
husband goes out of his way to give them silly voices
when he's reading aloud.  I just try to get past those
parts as quickly as possible when it's my turn to
read.  For reading aloud, my favorite character is
Hagrid.  I employ a broad Scottish accent which anyone
from Scotland would probably think was a joke.  But my
son says he definitely prefers my Hagrid to his dad's.
 (Not that this is a popularity contest.)



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From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu May 24 22:43:20 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:43:20 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <OE427kicP3lh9uKwdUc0000290e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ek2q8+5olm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19406


>
Vicky wrote: 
>   I realize that, but that's why I get tired of hearing about him. 
So dang popular. I mean, he's not a bad guy, and very loyal, but 
Hermione is definitely better. I mean, Harry would never have gotten 
to do what he gets credit for without their help. I know Ron and 
Hermione get credit as well, but it isn't fair that he gets more of 
it.
> 

Hmm... I understand what you meant about Harry getting plenty of help 
from his friends, but I'm not sure what you mean about Harry getting 
more credit than they do.  The way I see it is that Harry has no 
parents (and knowing his parents were murdered is an awful thing to 
live with), while Hermione and Ron have both parents, are loved by 
their parents, and supported (emotionally, in particular).  I'd say 
the two of them get plenty of credit.  Remember, there are times when 
Ron and Hermione are not supposed to be helping Harry anyway, and he 
has to face most things by himself, Voldie being the biggest one.

Hermione is better?  She's definitely the smartest of the three, and 
possibly the most perceptive (she knows Draco isn't the Heir of 
Slytherin and questions Trelawney right away), but I also think Harry 
treats her with a good deal of respect.  Although he does get angry at 
her, it is Ron's words we hear exchanged with Hermione, not Harry's.  
As far as Ron is concerned, Harry is also willing to give Ron as much 
money as Ron needed - if Ron would accept it.

In the end, I think the three of them work best together as a team, 
because they each have equally important things to contribute to their 
friendship.  I would also say that Harry is the happiest when is he is 
with both of them - when he encountered the Dementor in the maze at 
the end of GoF, he imagines celebrating with both Hermione and Ron 
after the tournament is over and that's what gives him the Patronus.

--jenny from ravenclaw***************************




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 22:46:55 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <OE76aDXYhko0nQZEMO600002990@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010524224655.48570.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19407


--- Vicky Ra <andromache815 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Speaking of Lily's sacrifice, now that Voldy's got
> some of Harry's blood, does this entitle him to the
> same protection Lily afforded Harry?
> 
> Vicky
> 

I believe Voldemort says as much in GoF.  And it's not
that Harry isn't special in his own right; it may have
been his mother's sacrifice that saved him as a baby,
but there was a reason for Voldemort to come after him
to begin with.  Harry asks Dumbledore about it near
the end of the first book, but Dumbledore tells him
he's not ready to know yet.  I assume that's one of
those things that JKR will keep quiet about until
something like the last page of Book Seven.

Since someone already brought up hero cycles (read
Joseph Campbell's HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES) what
happens to many heroes is that they are a part of a
prophecy which someone powerful is aware of; usually
it's a prophecy that involves the infant hero growing
up to vanquish the powerful person in question, so
they attempt to kill the potential hero as a baby when
he is presumably vulnerable.  This of course
backfires.  

Examples of this include:

1. Pharoah killing the Jewish babies when a seer of
his basically predicts Moses (who is then saved and
raised by his own daughter)

2. Oedipus' father finding out that his own son will
kill him, exposing the baby on a mountain to die, the
baby is rescued and raised elsewhere and because he
doesn't know who is father is, (in part, anyway) he
kills his father and marries his mother

3.Herod hearing of a prophecy concerning the King of
the Jews (which he thought was his title) and then
killing all of those infants in his own country in
order to kill the would-be future king.   

Tom Riddle is still in school and may not yet have
come across whatever prophecy predicted the birth of
his nemesis, Harry Potter.  So he is understandably
confused about Harry's specialness.

Voldemort in GoF seems intent on proving to the Death
Eaters that he is more powerful than Harry, as though
someone were arguing about it.  Terrible inferiority
complex.  (And yet, Harry's imposter syndrome is
somehow endearing.)  Why does he need an audience? 
Because he's Herod, he's Oedipus' father, he's
Pharoah, he's every insecure bigwig who's ever been
afraid that people will think something better's
coming down the pike.




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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 24 23:12:47 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:12:47 -0000
Subject: Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
Message-ID: <9ek4hf+p3u9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19408

Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration

Dedicated to Heidi Tandy

(To the tune of Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!, from Mary 
Poppins)

(THE SCENE: The Ministry of Magic Office. Enter LUDO BAGMAN)
 
BAGMAN
My days of flying Quidditch brooms
At last came to a close
A new career I then assumed 
That's far more grandiose
Whereas I once spent my whole day 
Attempting to dodge Bludgers
I am now earning all my pay
Working for Corny Fudgers

(Enter CORNELIUS FUDGE, BARTY CROUCH SR., PERCY WEASLEY, & AMOS 
DIGGORY)

ALL
Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
We are the wizards who hold sway over the British nation
We wield great authority with no imagination
Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay

PERCY
A cauldron must be just so thick 
So that it rightly bubbles

DIGGORY
To each precaution we must stick
To hide ourselves from Muggles

CROUCH
If magic's used at home by teens
An owl we'll send them flying

FUDGE
But if the Malfoys say they're clean 
We'll trust that they're not lying

ALL
Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration 
We are all quite adept at multiplying regulations
We're always being asked to please explain our explanations
Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Tom riddle riddle riddle tom riddle ay

PERCY (spoken)
Of course, you can always say it in Latin, which is 
Optimusimpeditusmagicusadministrationem, but that's probably 
incorrectly conjugated, wouldn't you say?

BAGMAN (spoken)
Certus!

CROUCH 
They say the Dark Lord has come back
For a new reign of terror
But if he thinks defense we lack 
He's made a deadly error

BAGMAN
`Cause we now have a foolproof scheme, 
Believe me, you can trust us
We've Bertha Jorkins on the scene
To bring him back to justice

ALL
Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration 
Voldemort will rue the day he launched his new invasion
`Cause we've approved a ruling which declares our condemnation
Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration!!!!

   - CMC





From vderark at bccs.org  Thu May 24 23:39:13 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:39:13 -0000
Subject: Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9ek4hf+p3u9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ek631+oon3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19409

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration


I am in awe.

Steve 
(genuflecting)




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 23:50:43 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:50:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010524222916.78666.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010524235043.53177.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19410

I like most of the characters quite well as I think they fit snugly
into their world and fill their roles (Best Friend - Male, Best
Friend - Female, Wise Benevolent Grandfather Figure, etc.)
wonderfully.

The characters I DON'T like are those that jar or take me out of the
story.  Such as:

Winky: as someone (sorry, can't remember the name) said, it's Jar Jar
Binks time.  She's just so irritating and I kept expecting her to say
something about "birthin' babies".  I hope the other elves sound more
like Dobby who has some great lines.

Rita Skeeter: I just could not believe that the Daily Prophet could
be a regular newspaper for three books and then morph into a tabloid.
 RS is not at all believable to me and I usually skipped quickly over
any scenes that she was in.  

Lockheart: I had a hard time understanding why Dumbledore would hire
him except for comic relief or to give Snape some dueling practice.

I also thought Madame Maxine's and Fleur's "French" accents were
silly.  The French Canadians I know and work with don't sound
anything like that, no matter how strong their accents are.



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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Thu May 24 23:56:57 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:56:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: House Elves
In-Reply-To: <20010524222916.78666.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010524235657.59379.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19411


--- Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I know.  The house elves are very Jar-Jar Binks.  Sets
> my teeth on edge.  

<grin> I rather agree. I've never liked the house elves, especially
their manner of speaking. I was hoping they'd disappear after CoS but
no such luck. 

On the other hand, I think our list elves are swell. <grin> 

Does anyone particularly like the house elves? If so, why? Just
curious; I could be looking at things wrong.

~Amber


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

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From old_wych at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 00:06:43 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:06:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid (was Chess Flint?)
In-Reply-To: <9ejs3t+dqo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525000643.2941.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19412


--- rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote 
> 
> Ouch - I learn yet again that it is a capital error
> to
> theorize without reading GOF.  (Pending birthday
> present,
> days counted but that would be personal data.)
> 
> So I'm dodging spoilers as much as I can, but I do
> gather
> I was wrong in expecting "a Neville without a hero"
> :-)
> 
Sorry about that. You do realize that almost everyone
here has read GoF and we don't mark things as
spoilers. You are going to have to tread very
carefully. May I suggest getting your present early
and locking yourself away with it for a day or so...
You'll find it well worth it!

> Taking liberties with someone's name isn't kind, I
> appreciate,
> but I meant only to amuse and not to cause offence -
> I hope
> that none is taken.
> 
None taken at all! Believe me, if you knew some of the
places I hang out on the net, you'd know I've got a
sense of humour! And welcome, BTW.

Anne


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From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri May 25 00:09:05 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:09:05 -0000
Subject: Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9ek631+oon3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ek7r1+hqji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19413

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> > Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
> 
> 
> I am in awe.
> 
> Steve 
> (genuflecting)


So am I.

Parker
(genuflecting right along with Steve)




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 00:39:10 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010524235043.53177.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010525003910.6293.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19414


--- Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> The characters I DON'T like are those that jar or
> take me out of the
> story.  Such as:
> 
> Winky: as someone (sorry, can't remember the name)
> said, it's Jar Jar
> Binks time.  She's just so irritating and I kept
> expecting her to say
> something about "birthin' babies".  I hope the other
> elves sound more
> like Dobby who has some great lines.
> 
The house elves in general annoy me, too. But then, as
big a Tolkien fan as I am, I usually skip over Tom
Bombadil, as well.

> 
> I also thought Madame Maxine's and Fleur's "French"
> accents were
> silly.  The French Canadians I know and work with
> don't sound
> anything like that, no matter how strong their
> accents are.
> 
> 
> 
Getting OT, but there's a reason for that. Canadian
French and French French don't sound anything alike,
just as North American English differs in accent from
the Queen's English. The difference in the French
dialects is enough to make for a different accent even
in English. I have heard French (from France) people
speak English with an accent similar to Mme Maxime's
or Fleur's. But no, French Canadians don't sound at
all like that when they speak English.

Anne

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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 00:45:59 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:45:59 -0000
Subject: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010524235043.53177.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eka07+p479@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19415

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> I like most of the characters quite well as I think they fit snugly
> into their world and fill their roles (Best Friend - Male, Best
> Friend - Female, Wise Benevolent Grandfather Figure, etc.)
> wonderfully.
> 
> The characters I DON'T like are those that jar or take me out of the
> story.  Such as:
> 
> Winky: as someone (sorry, can't remember the name) said, it's Jar 
Jar
> Binks time.  She's just so irritating and I kept expecting her to 
say
> something about "birthin' babies".  I hope the other elves sound 
more
> like Dobby who has some great lines.
> 
> Rita Skeeter: I just could not believe that the Daily Prophet could
> be a regular newspaper for three books and then morph into a 
tabloid.
>  RS is not at all believable to me and I usually skipped quickly 
over
> any scenes that she was in.  
> 
> Lockheart: I had a hard time understanding why Dumbledore would hire
> him except for comic relief or to give Snape some dueling practice.
> 
> I also thought Madame Maxine's and Fleur's "French" accents were
> silly.  The French Canadians I know and work with don't sound
> anything like that, no matter how strong their accents are.
> 
> 
> 
I too dislike Rita Skeeter intensely, both as a character, and as an 
irritation in the furtherance of the story.  She seems to be grafted 
on to the saga, and not an organic growing character like the others. 
Perhaps this is because Rita was that necessary plot-hole filler that 
we all argued about earlier; I don't know.  I do know that I didn't 
enjoy reading here scenes, and that I didn't even care when Hermione 
trapped her in the bottle.  She is the worst character in the canon, 
IMHO.

I do like Winky and Dobby, however.  I don't perceive them as cutsey 
elves or Jar Jar Bink like at all.  I will admit that these 
characters, especially Winky, were vastly improved by hearing them 
speak, as interpreted by Jim Dale.  I understood Winky as a character 
far better after hearing Jim Dale's intonation.  They seem to be 
Earth magic, rather than the academic magic as learned by the 
wizards.  I have not yet gotten to GoF as read by Fry, so I cannot 
speak to his interpretaion. It is unfortunate that my understanding 
and enjoyment of the character was so dependent upon the hearing, 
rather than upon reading the book, but, IMO, the house-elves serve 
necessary plot function, appear natural, and do not have those cutsey 
qualities that so upset many of you.

Lockheart is fluff;  if he tickles your funnybone, he's funny, if not, 
he is dreadful.  He tickled mine.

I agree that the cartoon French accents of Mme. Maxime and  Mlle. de 
la Cour are two-dimensional in print, and, if anything, are made worse 
by hearing them.  It would have been better if JKR did not write their 
dialogue in dialect (" O, 'Arree.....)

I would like to add one character to this "least-loved" list:  
Karkaroff.  The same deficiencies that apply to the French apply to 
him.  His only function is to camouflage Crouch, Jr. as Voldemort's 
spy, and, like the Beaubatons ladies, his accent is even more dreadful 
when you hear Dale do it-- and by and large, I like the way Dale has 
interpreted the characters, even after hearing two and one half of the 
books read by Fry.  Perhaps, like many Englishmen, JKR just doesn't 
think much of foreigners, and it shows in her writing.  I mean that 
literally;  she doesn't put much thought into them.

Haggridd




From editor at texas.net  Fri May 25 00:55:01 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:55:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Keeper of the House (filk)
References: <9ei0n1+elfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B0DAD64.C7528C0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19416

To avoid this being a one-liner:

THIS.
IS.
SUPERB.

--Amanda

linman6868 at aol.com wrote:

> KEEPER OF THE HOUSE
>
> To the tune of "Master of the House" from LES MISERABLES
>
> Dedicated to Amy Z and to Amanda Lewanski
>
>
> Curtain.  Filch with quill, writing at his desk.
>
> FILCH
> Dear Headmaster,
> Here's your report,
> I tried my best
> But can't keep it short...
> Punishing pests,
> Updating files,
> As for the rest--
> You'll see in a while.
> Seldom do you see
> Upright men like me--
> A fine man with a spine
> Who's only trying to be...
>
> [grumbling]
> Keeper of the House
> Guardian of the gates
> Ready with detention for those reprobates!
> Spots a liar's tale
> Makes a little list
> Rules the troublemakers with an iron fist!
> Glad to do old Snape a favor
> Yes, he seems to understand:
> Students need to pay or they will get stuck-up and out of hand...
>
> [warming to the topic]
> Keeper of the House
> Keeper of the zoo
> Running after kids is more than I should do!
> Get a couple chains
> Water and dry bread
> Lock 'em in the dungeon standing on their heads!
> Everybody hates the bad guy
> But that is what I'm paid to do--
> Whatever it will take to make them toe the line, that's what I'll do!
>
> FRED and GEORGE, leading a chain-gang chorus outside Filch's office,
> banging pots and pans:
>
> CHORUS
> Keeper of the House
> Quick to take a point,
> Loves a good excuse to throw you in the joint!
> Eyes on every floor,
> Locks on every gate,
> Likes to smack infractions whether small or great!
> And he's got this cat companion
> Boy, is she a royal pain!
>
> FILCH
> Come on, Mrs. Norris,
> Cor! this is an awful ruddy day!
>
> [FILCH returns to his letter]
>
> FILCH
> Dear Headmaster,
> Now for the punch,
> I hope you're not yet
> Eating your lunch...
> I have to say
> Peeves is a curse
> His pranks are growing
> Worse and yet worse
> Contest there can't be
> Of the lists so long
> If only you could see
> What Peeves has done so wrong...!
>
> Good food everywhere!
> House-elves in a state!
> And he dared to speak to me in words of hate!
> Smearings on the wall!
> Toilets overflowed!
> And there was graffiti saying I'm a toad!
> Putting gum wads in a door lock
> Writing swear words on the board,
> It's beyond all reason and his dirty pranks I can't afford...
>
> Vandals scrawling here,
> Vandals scrawling there,
> All the mess just makes me want to tear my hair!
> Here a wardrobe smashed
> There a curtain cut,
> I'm constantly erasing all the dirt and smut!
> Running out of Mrs. Skower's,
> Running out of sanity!
> Oh the little slimeys
> How they love to try me
> Blimey! what a trial to be me!
>
> CHORUS
> Keeper of the House
> Quick to take a point
> Love a good excuse to haul you in the joint!
> Eyes on every floor
> Locks on every gate
> Likes to smack infractions whether small or great!
> And he's got this cat companion,
> Dearly whom we'd like to kick
>
> FILCH
> Come on, Mrs. Norris,
> Cor! this day has given me some stick!
>
> Enter PEEVES, dressed like a French tavern mistress, vamping:
>
> PEEVES
> I used to think
> Old Dumble had a brain
> But have you seen
> What he's hired as caretaker?  He's insane!
>
> Keeper of the House?
> What a silly git!
> Thinks he runs the castle, but he's such a twit!
> Morals up to *here*--
> Platitudes to *there*--
> Thinks he's got my number--but there's not much there
> [waves tiny phantom wand]
> Waging war upon my antics,
> What's a poltergeist to do?
> How I love to fib and teach the little Squib a thing or two!
>
> FILCH and CHORUS
> Keeper of the House!
>
> PEEVES
> Keeper of the dump!
>
> FILCH and CHORUS
> Likes to smack infractions
>
> PEEVES
> Ah, the silly lump!
>
> FILCH and CHORUS
> Eyes on every floor,
> Locks on every gate,
>
> PEEVES
> Bats about a hundredth, I would estimate!
>
> CHORUS
> Let's all drink a toast to Argus,
> Give his cat a fresh white mouse!
> Everybody raise a roar!
>
> PEEVES
> Let's all see his Kwikspell score!
>
> FILCH and CHORUS
> Everybody raise a roar for the Keeper of the House!
>
>
>
> --Lisa I.
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter
> YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the
> messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 01:14:38 2001
From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:14:38 -0000
Subject: Harry as "classic" hero (was Re: Lily's Sacrifice)
In-Reply-To: <20010524224655.48570.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ekblu+frl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19417

> Since someone already brought up hero cycles (read
> Joseph Campbell's HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES) what
> happens to many heroes is that they are a part of a
> prophecy which someone powerful is aware of; usually
> it's a prophecy that involves the infant hero growing
> up to vanquish the powerful person in question, so
> they attempt to kill the potential hero as a baby when
> he is presumably vulnerable.  This of course
> backfires.  
> 

Absolutly, positively, anyone interested in the hero aspect should 
read Joseph Campbell's "Hero With A Thousand Faces." I cannot say 
enough about this book! And it can be applied to everything from 
Moses to Harry Potter, from Oedipus to Superman. I was introduced to 
this book by my freshman lit prof (God bless Eric Von Fuhrman!) and 
have found myself going back to it countless times in the *mumbldy-
mumble* years since.

Another thing he taught as necessary to enjoy literature (movies, 
poetry etc.): THE WILLING SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF. To me, that means 
not getting bogged down in how many years from this to that, or just 
trying to make too much "sense" out of why a character said/did what 
they said/did. 

Sometimes, it's best just to sit back and enjoy the ride.

Belle Starr, who was thrilled in 1980 when in an article about "The 
Empire Strikes Back," Time magazine noted that George Lucas kept a 
copy of "Hero With A Thousand Faces" on the bookshelf behind his desk.





From editor at texas.net  Fri May 25 01:34:40 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:34:40 -0500
Subject: A Dumbledore thought
Message-ID: <3B0DB6B0.4B48026D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19418

Jan has now read SS and CoS, and is getting into PoA [one of the few
benefits of having one's husband down for days with a bad back is that
he reads the books!].

He wanted to know if there was any firm canonical evidence that
Dumbledore himself attended Hogwarts. And I don't know that there is.
Hmm.

Jan's just brainstorming, he does that, and he was simply pointing out
that this might be another assumption we're making. Like our assumption
he was in Gryffindor, when the only basis for this is Hermione in book 1
saying "I hear Dumbledore himself was in Gryffindor" or something to
that effect, which is not rock-solid.

Probably he *was* at Hogwarts and he *was* in Gryffindor and JKR would
be truly astonished that we could entertain any other thought, but as
usual Jan got me thinking, so I thought I'd ask. Am I not remembering
something? Or have we all just assumed?

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Fri May 25 01:36:54 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:36:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spider eating 101 (was chapter 8 and 9)
References: <9eialo+lv2h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B0DB736.F8F8E71B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19419

rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:

> I don't want to add to your own worry, but how do you tell live ones
> from dead, anyway?

They don't move when they're being chewed up. Ron should count his
blessings that Crookshanks didn't like him enough to bring him a
semi-dead one as a gift; I've had one irritated but wet and disoreinted
brown recluse spat at my feet by my own adoring feline.

To be on-topic, I always thought this was a deliberate and conscious
thing that Crookshanks did to "get" Ron. I don't think it was on the
level of "he hates spiders, I'll oook him out", but I do think that it
was an intentionally being in-your-face to the person who had been
distressing his human.

--Amanda (no, it didn't bite him, and he didn't much like me looking,
either)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri May 25 01:44:20 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:44:20 
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  Canon and romance (was:  L&J typical? (FF))
Message-ID: <F126RjbDt3HvoFOAmEa00012ea6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19420

The awesome Amy Z wrote:

?  Is it unimaginable that any couples will form who weren't already hinted 
at in the first four novels?

Of course not!  You know, as I read your post I really began to see a bit of 
where no-shippers are coming from... most HP ships haven't even been hinted 
at in canon.  It's just a case of HP fans who wish to play Cupid.  (Although 
some of us are more adept at matchmaking than others.  <eg>)

The *best* romance so far in canon IMO is Arthur and Molly's marriage, as 
someone else pointed out today.  My favorite fictional couples are not those 
whose story ends at "...and they all lived happily ever after", but those 
who are shown dealing with the problems of everyday life.

In C.S. Lewis' essay on romantic love (Eros), he makes an interesting 
observation:  "Eros is driven to promise what Eros himself cannot perform... 
but these lapses will not destroy a marriage between two decent and sensible 
people.  We must do the works of Eros when Eros is not present."

I am not married, so cannot speak about it from experience, but I have been 
in love.  When married couples that I know (and most of the friends I 
interact with most on a daily basis are or have been married) say that they 
are still in love with their spouse, I gather that they are not talking 
about that flushed, 
can't-eat-can't-sleep-can't-do-anything-save-think-of-him infatuated state 
that is so lauded in both popular and classical culture.  How would anything 
ever get done?  One can't stay in that state for all time.

That's why I value the positive example that Arthur and Molly are setting 
for their children.  Too bad they're so terribly neglected in fanfic.  On 
second thought, knowing the ff.net crowd as I do, perhaps that is a good 
thing.  :-)

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From margdean at erols.com  Fri May 25 01:09:27 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:09:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves
References: <20010524235657.59379.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B0DB0C7.2DD4EEE9@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19421

Amber wrote:
> 
> --- Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I know.  The house elves are very Jar-Jar Binks.  Sets
> > my teeth on edge.
> 
> <grin> I rather agree. I've never liked the house elves, especially
> their manner of speaking. I was hoping they'd disappear after CoS but
> no such luck.
> 
> On the other hand, I think our list elves are swell. <grin>
> 
> Does anyone particularly like the house elves? If so, why? Just
> curious; I could be looking at things wrong.

Well, I've always been a sucker for little creatures with strange
speech patterns:  I also have a soft spot for the Preservers from
Elfquest, if that's any indication (and I know plenty of EQ fans
who find =them= incredibly annoying).  Also I find Dobby and Co.
fun to read aloud.  My sons very much enjoy my "Dobby" voice. 
Little bit of ego there . . .

I also find the house-elf problem fascinating in its own right. 
I'm sure it's going to turn out to be much more complicated than
either Ron or Hermione (as representatives of their respective
viewpoints) thinks it is at present.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From partyperson_dpc at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 01:59:46 2001
From: partyperson_dpc at yahoo.com (partyperson_dpc at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:59:46 -0000
Subject: Lily's Sacrifice
Message-ID: <9ekeai+thrt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19422

Okay, somebody posted that they were disappointed that the only 
reason that Harry survived and defeated Voldemort were because of 
Lily's sacrificial death. See, that's what I thought for awhile too. 
But then I started thinking about it more in depth--and I concluded 
that something other than her sacrifice defeated Voldemort. Because 
Voldemort killed so many people, don't you think that somewhere along 
the line, some mother must have tried to protect their child and died 
in the process? But no other child got a lightning shaped scar of 
their forehead and defeated him, right? So I'm thinking Harry must 
have something VERY special about him. Yes, her sacrifice is what 
saved him and repelled Voldemort. But what defeated him? I don't 
think we know that yet. At the end of SS, Dumbledore clearly states 
that her love and sacrifice were protection against Voldemort, who is 
evil personified and therefore her sacrificial love PROTECTED Harry. 
But what defeated Voldemort? Clearly, there is something to Harry 
that he and the readers haven't fully realized yet. I could be wrong 
about this--but hey, just stating my opinion. Tell me what ya'll 
think.
~E




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Fri May 25 02:08:37 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:08:37 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape love letter
Message-ID: <103.3dbd5d3.283f18a5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19423

Dear "Mrs. Snape,"

A worried owl intercepted your love letter and forwarded it to me, and I am 
so grateful it did. By return owl, I will be sending you right away a copy of 
my bestseller, "Wizards who act like trolls and the witches who love them." I 
believe you could benefit from the analysis I provide. Did you read my 
interview in "Witch Weekly" last month? Ms. Skeeter is a most excellent 
reporter minus that unfortunate buzzing habit of hers, although in my defense 
I must say I weigh 140 pounds, not the 240 she reported, and I am not bald. 

Or, feel free to dash over to Diagon Alley and pick up a copy at Flourish and 
Blotts. I believe they're having a 60% off sale of the title, though I don't 
know why. 

Sincerely,

Dr. Oprahiumus Venusian



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri May 25 02:11:26 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:11:26 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  Canon and romance (was:  L&J typical? (FF))
In-Reply-To: <F126RjbDt3HvoFOAmEa00012ea6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524190736.02fc6a40@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19424

At 01:44 AM 5/25/01 +0000, Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote:
>Of course not!  You know, as I read your post I really began to see a bit of
>where no-shippers are coming from... most HP ships haven't even been hinted
>at in canon.  It's just a case of HP fans who wish to play Cupid.  (Although
>some of us are more adept at matchmaking than others.  <eg>)

For some of us, it would probably be better to say we're "playing
Emma Woodhouse", adeptness-wise.  :)



                         -- Dave




From devika261 at aol.com  Fri May 25 02:24:05 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:24:05 EDT
Subject: Harry's visit
Message-ID: <13.1629d8fd.283f1c45@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19425

Just a thought...
I know that in OoTP Harry is supposed to visit a place that has been 
mentioned in the books but that he hasn't been inside.  I've heard 
speculation on what this place is, and I think people mostly say Azkaban and 
Godric's Hollow.  I think both of those are quite likely, but I've just been 
rereading GoF, and I have another possibility.  I don't think I've ever seen 
this suggested, so sorry if anyone has.  How about St. Mungo's Hospital?  
Considering what we have found out about Neville's parents, it seems probable 
that we will be hearing more about them (or more about Neville, anyway), and 
St. Mungo's might be a good place to start.  
I'm pretty sure that St. Mungo's has been mentioned at other occasions in the 
books, although I can't remember exactly where.  And we know that JKR rarely, 
if ever, just makes random references to people or places.  Any thoughts?
Devika :)  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 02:31:15 2001
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9ek4hf+p3u9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525023115.62918.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19426


There is a new song in the Mallett household!
Heidi should be honored!
My boys will be singing this all weekend long!
This is very good thing, instead of whistle while you
work, they can be dancing and singing this wonderful
song!
Thank you for more magic for my muggles to do chores
to!

Mary Poppins will never be looked at the same again!

Wanda The Witch






--- Caius Marcius <coriolan at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
> 
> Dedicated to Heidi Tandy
> 
> (To the tune of Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!,
> from Mary 
> Poppins)
> 
> (THE SCENE: The Ministry of Magic Office. Enter LUDO
> BAGMAN)
>  
> BAGMAN
> My days of flying Quidditch brooms
> At last came to a close
> A new career I then assumed 
> That's far more grandiose
> Whereas I once spent my whole day 
> Attempting to dodge Bludgers
> I am now earning all my pay
> Working for Corny Fudgers
> 
> (Enter CORNELIUS FUDGE, BARTY CROUCH SR., PERCY
> WEASLEY, & AMOS 
> DIGGORY)
> 
> ALL
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
> We are the wizards who hold sway over the British
> nation
> We wield great authority with no imagination
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
> Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
> Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
> 
> PERCY
> A cauldron must be just so thick 
> So that it rightly bubbles
> 
> DIGGORY
> To each precaution we must stick
> To hide ourselves from Muggles
> 
> CROUCH
> If magic's used at home by teens
> An owl we'll send them flying
> 
> FUDGE
> But if the Malfoys say they're clean 
> We'll trust that they're not lying
> 
> ALL
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration 
> We are all quite adept at multiplying regulations
> We're always being asked to please explain our
> explanations
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
> Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
> Tom riddle riddle riddle tom riddle ay
> 
> PERCY (spoken)
> Of course, you can always say it in Latin, which is 
> Optimusimpeditusmagicusadministrationem, but that's
> probably 
> incorrectly conjugated, wouldn't you say?
> 
> BAGMAN (spoken)
> Certus!
> 
> CROUCH 
> They say the Dark Lord has come back
> For a new reign of terror
> But if he thinks defense we lack 
> He's made a deadly error
> 
> BAGMAN
> `Cause we now have a foolproof scheme, 
> Believe me, you can trust us
> We've Bertha Jorkins on the scene
> To bring him back to justice
> 
> ALL
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration 
> Voldemort will rue the day he launched his new
> invasion
> `Cause we've approved a ruling which declares our
> condemnation
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration!!!!
> 
>    - CMC
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Fri May 25 02:31:16 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 02:31:16 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and MoM
Message-ID: <9ekg5k+qvdp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19427

This may have already been said, but I had 40 posts to read through 
to see if it had, so instead of being up all night, I'll just post it!

When I read that Dumbledore had received an urgent owl from MoM, I 
immediately thought, "What a slimy git that Quirrel is...he sent 
Dumbledore the owl to go to London.  But when he gets to London he'll 
know it wasn't real, but will it be too late? <gasp>"

That's what I thought of right away.  Maybe it was just me.  Maybe 
I'm way off, but hey, my friends tell me that all the time, and they 
still like me :)

Michelle :)




From dasienko at email.com  Fri May 25 02:33:00 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 02:33:00 -0000
Subject: A Dumbledore thought
In-Reply-To: <3B0DB6B0.4B48026D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9ekg8s+hk59@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19428

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > He wanted to know if there was any firm canonical evidence that
> Dumbledore himself attended Hogwarts. And I don't know that there 
is.
> Hmm.
> 

This leads to other questions: Are the students at Hogwarts the only 
witches and wizard children? If so Then there are only X number of 
eleven year old wizard>witches in the UK every year. Are ther other 
schools?
Is Hogwarts the Best School? Ron doesn't mention any other school, 
and you would think that Quidditch games would be more than 
intramural if there were other schools.
The only remote hint that there could be other schools is in GoF when 
we learn that Harry's mane had been put in the goblet under the name 
of a different school. 

Dumbledore may have gone to another school, and this is what makes 
him a little more lenient towards outsiders.




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri May 25 02:44:52 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 02:44:52 -0000
Subject: Harry's visit
In-Reply-To: <13.1629d8fd.283f1c45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ekgv4+47a8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19429

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:

> I'm pretty sure that St. Mungo's has been mentioned at other 
occasions in the 
> books, although I can't remember exactly where.  

Lucius Malfoy made a "very generous" contribution to St. Mungo's; 
coincidentally, Fudge invited the Malfoy family to sit in the Top Box 
at the World Cup not long after.

It was suspected that Crouch, when he stopped showing up at the 
office, was in St. Mungo's. The hospital made no comment.

Rita Skeeter quoted experts from St. Mungo's for her article that 
suggested that Harry was a bit off in the head.



There may be references in FB and QA, but those books and notes about 
them are all packed up to go camping this weekend, so I can't check.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri May 25 03:02:50 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 03:02:50 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
Message-ID: <F210VxrPyJkIYBdTR8u00013015@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19430

I never reply just to say how much I love the filks, but Caius has once 
again proven that he is the HP4GU Resident Genius!  :-D

And the timing was perfect... we just finished a marathon thread on Disney 
over at HP4GU... Mary Poppins came up more than once.

--Ebony
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Fri May 25 03:45:30 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 03:45:30 -0000
Subject: Snape- the never ending thread.
Message-ID: <9ekkgq+8282@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19431

Hi you guys!
I'm free for the summer! Yeah! Anyway I missed a few days and then 
I've got stuff to comment on that may of already been forgotten so 
bear with me.

You've gotta love Snape, eh? Well it seems that some of you despise 
him actually. He's just so darn interesting.

Firstly someone mentioned perhaps we would see more of Florence in 
future books, as the DADA prof, and also that it was Snape or Sirius 
that she was kissing. So then I had this idea that Florence could 
have been Lily's friend and Sirius's love, but  Bertha caught her 
kissing Snape, and so Sirius played that horrible trick and then...  

uh, nevermind. This has nothing to do with what I was going to say in 
this post.

Secondly, someone, and I don't remember who, said something about 
Snape's gang in response to James et al., but I am far more apt to 
agree with Dinah's "low profile" thing in that hilarious love letter 
she wrote. In fact I picture Hogwarts day Snape as being almost 
reclusive. I know it says somewhere something about Snape "and that 
group he hung out with". But despite I just have the feeling that he 
was a very private person then as he is now. Unless if being a DE 
really changed him, and that is certainly possible. 

I just can't see him as a combination of "Draco and Peter" as someone 
put it. He's obviously very bitter, and resentful, though of what we 
don't know, but I don't think he was ever the little Draco. 






From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Fri May 25 04:12:25 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 04:12:25 -0000
Subject: Howarts Food
Message-ID: <9ekm39+bsus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19432

This was mentioned hundreds of messages ago, but I just have to add, 
because I love food disscussions, and it's about time we had another 
one. 

I am suprised that the trio aren't so fat the had to waddle up the 
stairs. Of course it is fiction, so as realistic as the characters 
may seem they can still eat as many helpings of pudding as they can 
hold and not gain an inch. (sigh).

In the immortal words of Fleur- "It is too 'eavy all zis 'Ogwarts 
food, I will not fit into my dress robes!"

Besides being a vegetarian I try my hardest not to snack or eat 
anything between meals or to eat sweets that often, and I try to buy 
organic foods, and eliminate most fat from my diet, BUT sometimes I 
just get a craving for pastries and ice cream and...you get the idea. 
In other words I have very little will-power, so that if I just don't 
have the foods I don't eat them. I can't imagine being at Hogwarts 
where delicious food just continually appears on the table in front 
of people at every meal!

Simon said that he likes cooking for himself which I can't 
understand, because though I love to cook for other people, I can't 
stand eating my concoctions myself. I don't know why, they are 
perfectly delicious, but something about making it takes away my 
appetite. Hmmm, to tie this back on topic I don't guess that the 
common rooms have kitchens, but I'm suprised that they don't have 
anywhere for food, since they must want a midnight snack sometime. 

Do wizards need to keep perishable items in a refridgerator? Maybe 
they can just enchant things so they don't spoil.

Scott
who might have to go see what's in the pantry... :-)




From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 04:04:37 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 908
In-Reply-To: <990738000.1760.88838.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525040437.51372.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19433


>Jenny:
>Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?  

>No. I dislike him as well. He was a fraud, and
everyone but Hermione 
>knew it. It grated on me how he always embarrassed
Harry, and CoS is my 
>least fav book as well. I think SS and GoF are my
favs.

>Vicky


I HATE Lockhart.  He is the most overbearing,
conceted, self-agrandizing charater in the series.
I've meet a few people IRL like that and wanted to
punch their lights outs so you can imagine that I
would have even less tolerance for a written version
of that sort of person.

Danette

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Fri May 25 04:24:18 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 04:24:18 -0000
Subject: Cats-Kneazles-Crookshanks-Arabella Figg
Message-ID: <9ekmpi+67km@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19434

Arabella Figg. Who is she and when will we find out about her? I 
recently finished reading "Jude the Obscure" (yes I was reading it in 
Feb., but I put it down for a month, or two, or three :-) so...) and 
while I don't think JKR necessarily took Arabella's name from it, it 
IS the only other book I've ever read with a character named 
Arabella. Any speculation? (If this is correct I don't think we 
should hold out much hope for her character.)

As far as Crookshanks goes there has been lots of theories as to
M(r)s. Figg being an animagus etc. But my best bet is that

A) She's a Kneazle breeder, and that's why there are so many "cats" 
around.
or B) The cats are there to detect anything unsavoury that might harm 
Harry. 

I know, I know! Both these thoughts have been expressed before, but 
It seemed like a nice thing to add to the  Arabella thread.

Scott




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Fri May 25 04:29:30 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 04:29:30 -0000
Subject: Least Favourite Characters...
In-Reply-To: <20010525040437.51372.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ekn3a+br26@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19435


It's Ho"G"warts food, not Howarts!!!! (slaps face in embarassment. 
Bad Scotty, Bad Scotty!)

My least favourite character would have to be Rita Skeeter, she's 
doesn't mind lying, cheating, even "buzzing" her way into other 
people's lives just to get a story. She's a horrible journalist. Not 
to mention she's really annoying and she was mean to all our 
favourite characters without the least bit of remore.)

Scott
Who is tired and hopes you'll excuse all these incoherent posts...




From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 03:37:49 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:37:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 909
In-Reply-To: <990754624.2085.47052.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525033749.15419.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19436


>--- Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I know.  The house elves are very Jar-Jar Binks. 
Sets
>> my teeth on edge.  

><grin> I rather agree. I've never liked the house
elves, especially
>their manner of speaking. I was hoping they'd
disappear after CoS but
>no such luck. 

>On the other hand, I think our list elves are swell.
<grin> 

>Does anyone particularly like the house elves? If so,
why? Just
>curious; I could be looking at things wrong.

>~Amber


Actually I'd love to have a house elf <grin>.  In
truth though except for Dobby(who I thought was so
annoying that I skipped most of the stuff about him
and fast-forwarded through on the audio version) I
like house elves because they remind me of the
brownies of legend.  JK has d9one a very good job of
coming up with her own twists and turns to the
traditional folklore of our past.

Danette

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 03:14:03 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 905
In-Reply-To: <990704316.1629.96861.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525031403.48070.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19437


>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...>
wrote:
>> >Ron:  "I take one step forward, and she'll take me
- "
>> >
>> > and then: "He stepped forward and the white queen
pounced."
>> 
>> If there was only one legal move that the knight
could make at that 
point,
>> and the chess board obeyed the ordinary rule that
one a player has 
touched a
>> piece they have to move it, even if they suddenly
realise that they 
have
>> made a mistake, the queen would be legally entitled
to take Ron the 
instant
>> he moved, though it is better etiquette (and
psychology) to wait till 
the
>> piece actually lands on the disputed square.

>But how does Ron have only one legal move?  From any
square, a
>knight has at least two moves.

>Robert Carnegie, exposing ignorance
>Glasgow, Scotland


Actually there would be a time whem the knight would
have only one legal move and that's when any other
move would cause the king to be in check.

Danette

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From simon at hp.inbox.as  Fri May 25 06:21:54 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 07:21:54 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Howarts Food
In-Reply-To: <9ekm39+bsus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAELADJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 19438

Yes. It is time for another food debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Scott: <<<This was mentioned hundreds of messages ago, but I just have to add,
because I love food disscussions, and it's about time we had another one.>>>

I do agree. We can sit around here and discuss food all day long and still not
get bored with it. I cannot remember when the last decent food discussion was.
We have been missing out.


Scott: <<<I am suprised that the trio aren't so fat the had to waddle up the
stairs. Of course it is fiction, so as realistic as the characters may seem
they can still eat as many helpings of pudding as they can hold and not gain
an inch. (sigh).

In the immortal words of Fleur- "It is too 'eavy all zis 'Ogwarts food, I will
not fit into my dress robes!">>>

I have been left with the impression that magic must take a lot of energy and
so a lot needs to be eaten to take account for this. Something must be
happening for them to be able to eat such large meals. Or is it that they do
not?

Is the case of them having second helpings and so on a mistake. The only meals
we see them eating lots at are the big feasts (start and end of year,
Christmas and Halloween). I personally always eat lots at special meals, which
is my take on these feasts. I do not think that we can be so sure that they do
eat lots at the normal meals.

During the day the students get a fair amount of activity walking between
lessons, added to my comment above about magic taking lots of energy to
perform, then we can assume that they are able to eat a bit more than the
average teenage couch potato.

As for the trio. Well Harry eating more would be a good thing. The only reason
he does not look stick insect thin is because he is so short. Ron is so tall
and thin. Based on comments about some of the other members of his family,
Arthur for on, then I would guess that he is fairly like me and able to eat
lots without having any real problem about putting on weight [0].

Hermione? As she is a girl I, totally unjustifiably, take the 5th amendment
and say nothing.


Scott: <<<Besides being a vegetarian I try my hardest not to snack or eat
anything between meals or to eat sweets that often, and I try to buy organic
foods, and eliminate most fat from my diet, BUT sometimes I just get a craving
for pastries and ice cream and...you get the idea. In other words I have very
little will-power, so that if I just don't have the foods I don't eat them. I
can't imagine being at Hogwarts where delicious food just continually appears
on the table in front of people at every meal!>>>

Not a veggie and would like to eat more organic food, but cannot afford to do
so [1]. I make little effort on the elimination of fat from my diet, but do
not regularly eat fatty foods [2]. I am at the moment eating absolute tons of
food, but I put this down to being a student revising for exams.


Scott: <<<Simon said that he likes cooking for himself which I can't
understand, because though I love to cook for other people, I can't stand
eating my concoctions myself. I don't know why, they are perfectly delicious,
but something about making it takes away my appetite. Hmmm, to tie this back
on topic I don't guess that the common rooms have kitchens, but I'm suprised
that they don't have anywhere for food, since they must want a midnight snack
sometime.>>>

I do not think they would trust the students with kitchens. Remembering that
some are only 11 years old I do not think it would be safe to let them near a
kitchen on their own. Do people think they have tea/coffee making stuff up in
the common room and if so how does it work? No electricity and all.

--------------------
Footnotes
[0] At least not in the getting fat sense. In the getting tall sense he has
probably put on lots of weight.
[1] On the topic of food cost, I was scandalised to realise that my local
supermarket charges more for chicken than my local organic butcher. I have
since moved to buying my chicken from the organic butcher not just because it
costs less but also because it actually tastes nicer.
[2] The exception being my sausage/bacon butties on Sunday afternoon with a
friend.
--------------------

Simon (well it had to be a food related sig in the circumstances!)
--
" Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food
groups - alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri May 25 06:59:29 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 06:59:29 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010524222916.78666.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ekvsh+hmbj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19439

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> I know.  The house elves are very Jar-Jar Binks.  Sets
> my teeth on edge.  But I didn't say I like Lockhart; I
> think he's funny.  (Remember, I said laughing at, not
> with.)  If I actually had to be in the room with him,
> I'd probably think he was insufferable. <<<<<<<<<<<

Oh, haha, so I guess I ~am~ alone, then.  I know what you mean, 
though.  If he seemed real in any way to me, I'd probably find him 
insufferable, too.  It's because he's such a caricature that I find 
him so hilarious.
 
> My kids really enjoy the house elves, though, and my
> husband goes out of his way to give them silly voices
> when he's reading aloud.  I just try to get past those
> parts as quickly as possible when it's my turn to
> read.  For reading aloud, my favorite character is
> Hagrid.  I employ a broad Scottish accent which anyone
> from Scotland would probably think was a joke.  But my
> son says he definitely prefers my Hagrid to his dad's. <<<<<<<<<<<<

That's so great.  I love Hagrid, too.

>  (Not that this is a popularity contest.)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Of course not... (Yay, you!) ;oP

Kelley





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 07:28:12 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 07:28:12 -0000
Subject: A Dumbledore thought
In-Reply-To: <9ekg8s+hk59@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9el1ic+gj29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19440

Yes Dasieko there are other schools.  There were 
two other schools participating in the Triwizards 
Tournament at Hogwarts. Durmstrang and Beauxbatons 

There were wizard children from other schools at 
the Quiditch world cup. 

Bugg 


dasienko at e... wrote:
Are the students at Hogwarts the only witches and wizard 
children? If so Then there are only X number of eleven 
year old wizard/witches in the UK every year. Are there 
other schools? ... 
The only remote hint that there could be other schools 
is in GoF when we learn that Harry's mane had been put 
in the goblet under the name of a different school. 
> 


--------------------------------------------------------- 
The world's largest kelpie continues to evade capture in 
Loch Ness and appears to have developed a positive thirst 
for publicity.  

Fantastic Beast and where to find them 





From astudill at uiuc.edu  Fri May 25 07:31:33 2001
From: astudill at uiuc.edu (Colonel Astudillo)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 07:31:33 -0000
Subject: Lily's Sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <9ekeai+thrt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9el1ol+n9k5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19441

seems right to me.  gives harry some "jesus" mystique.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., partyperson_dpc at y... wrote:
> Okay, somebody posted that they were disappointed that the only 
> reason that Harry survived and defeated Voldemort were because of 
> Lily's sacrificial death. See, that's what I thought for awhile 
too. 
> But then I started thinking about it more in depth--and I concluded 
> that something other than her sacrifice defeated Voldemort. Because 
> Voldemort killed so many people, don't you think that somewhere 
along 
> the line, some mother must have tried to protect their child and 
died 
> in the process? But no other child got a lightning shaped scar of 
> their forehead and defeated him, right? So I'm thinking Harry must 
> have something VERY special about him. Yes, her sacrifice is what 
> saved him and repelled Voldemort. But what defeated him? I don't 
> think we know that yet. At the end of SS, Dumbledore clearly states 
> that her love and sacrifice were protection against Voldemort, who 
is 
> evil personified and therefore her sacrificial love PROTECTED 
Harry. 
> But what defeated Voldemort? Clearly, there is something to Harry 
> that he and the readers haven't fully realized yet. I could be 
wrong 
> about this--but hey, just stating my opinion. Tell me what ya'll 
> think.
> ~E




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri May 25 08:23:47 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:23:47 -0700
Subject: Slytherin - Fleur/Bill - Errol - Remus - Lockhart - Mrs. Snape -  Arabella - Food
Message-ID: <3B0E1693.633960F7@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19442

Barbara Purdom wrote:
>  Are there any Muggle-borns at all in Slytherin?
I wonder about that too. There is a conflict between Salazar's objection
to educating Muggle-borns and the Hat's statement that devious ambitious
people go into Slytherin House. I fantasize a Muggle-born student being
Sorted into Slytherin House, being (badly) harassed by Draco and the
other racists, and Snape does his House Master duty (forcing the
students to get along together) by telling Draco that the student cannot
be really a Mudblood, must have been switched at birth (hi, Heidi!) or
be some wizard's bastard, because the Sorting Hat put her in Slytherin
and the Sorting Hat doesn't make mistakes.

jenfold wrote:
> On another Fleur matter: hands up those who think she'll get
> together with Bill. Just imagine Fleur visiting the Weasley family
> home and distracting all the men.
Sorry to be so repetitious, but I *still* love the idea of Fleur making
some excuse to visit The Burrow while the whole family is there, and
Ron, and the twins, and Percy, and Charlie are all following her around
with their tongues hanging out, and even Mr. Weasley gazes at her with a
dreamy smile, but Bill is absolutely unaffected.... until she catches
him alone and either forces a kiss on him to which he doesn't react, or
skips the kiss and just *asks* why he doesn't fancy her, to which he
tells her he's gay...

Rick wrote:
> Is anyone else concerned with the way the Weasleys treat
> Errol.  Seems kinda cruel to keep using him when he keeps
> ending up unconscious after every delivery.
I think he only ends up unconscious after long or heavy deliveries.
Still, my friend Lee wants to start a Society for the Prevention of
Cruelty to Owls and sic it on the Weasleys.

Vicky Ra wrote:
> Lupin does seem more reserved. I'm surprised he trusted Snape to
> make the wolfsbane for him. I mean, he could have been poisoned.
Remus knows that Dumbledore ordered Snape to make the Potion, and Snape
would not dare go against Dumbledore by poisoning him.

> What emotional problems has he got?
It seems to me that Remus makes a tremendous (and successful) effort not
merely to not show his feelings, but to avoid *any* emotional intimacy
-- he doesn't want Harry or anyone else to like him too much -- that he
starts and then stops himself from patting Harry's shoulder comfortingly
is not just that he avoids touching people (because of the way people
react to being touched by a werewolf, look at Ron with broken leg), but
also that he doesn't want Harry view him as family. I imagine that he
already, at age 11, when he started at Hogwarts, had learned to keep
himself to himself: don't tell people too much or they'll find out
you're a werewolf and they'll hate you, and don't like people too much
or it hurts too much when they turn against you. He somehow learned to
let his three friends inside that shell, and what happened? Two were
murdered by the third. All of them lost to him. It just goes to show
that making friends was a mistake in the first place.

A B olde wyche wrote:
> Anyone wonder what JKR means by "lived there", ie.
> does she mean Lupin literally lived in his office?
For what it's worth, I lead visitors to my cubicle at work and announce:
"This is where I live" or tell people at meetings "I live on the fifth
floor, cube 5-79". I'm not the only person who uses the word "lives"
that way, but I think I may be the only person who speaks of some file
as "living on" some disk: My status report lives on the floppy with the
green label.

Doreen wrote:
>  Or maybe it is Remus James and James is
> James Remus ... step-brothers. :))
If they were even stepbrothers, wouldn't Remus be Harry's uncle and
therefore the Dursleys wouldn't be 'the only family he has left'?
Anyway, I think the relationship you are imagining is half-brothers
(same mother, different fathers = different surnames) or first cousins
(their mothers were sisters), because step-siblings were not related to
each other at the time that they were born and therefore would have no
reason to have been given related names.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
>  Lockhart clearly never knew what he was doing,
I must echo all the people who said that Lockhart knew what he was doing
when he was going to leave Ginny to die just so he could publish a good
story about defeating a basalisk.

Dinah's love letter is LOL, especially "P.S.: Sorry for stalking you.",
but I think you shouldn't sign it "Mrs. Snape" -- that'd ensure that he
thinks you're hallucinating and throws it out.

Scott wrote:
> [Jude the Obscure]  IS the only other book I've ever read
> with a character named Arabella.
There is a Georgette Heyer romance (set, of course, during the English
Regency) titled ARABELLA after its heroine. It being 1:15 in the morning
my time, the name Arabella reminds me of the name Araminta, and the
off-topic fanfic thread of WHY John Walton's character Araminta keeps
claiming that her parents were too influenced by the Sixties? Araminta
is NOT NOT NOT a 1960s name. Is she referring to the 1860s?

 Simon wrote:
> I do not think they would trust the students with kitchens.
> Remembering that some are only 11 years old I do not
> think it would be safe to let them near a kitchen on their own.
> Do people think they have tea/coffee making stuff up in the
> common room and if so how does it work? No electricity and all.

Surely the older students can do that tap on the teapot with their wand
and the water immediately boils thing, even if the younger students
haven't learned it yet. In PoA: "Lupin tapped the kettle with his wand
and a blast of steam issued suddenly from the spout."
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri May 25 08:29:12 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:29:12 -0000
Subject: Lily's Sacrifice
Message-ID: <9el54o+7hp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19443

Hi all--

When thinking of Lily's sacrifice, I remember this bit from CoS, ch 
17:  "No one knows why you lost your powers when you attacked me," 
said Harry abruptly.  "I don't know myself.  But I know why you 
couldn't -kill- me.  Because my mother died to save me.  My common 
~Muggle-born~ mother," he added, shaking with suppressed rage.  "She 
stopped you killing me."

He learned this from Dumbledore, correct?  So, Lily's sacrifice is 
what saved Harry's life, and we don't know what exactly caused Voldy 
to lose his powers.  I've been figuring it's that "something about 
Harry" we have yet to learn about...

Kelley   




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Fri May 25 10:25:35 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:25:35 -0000
Subject: A Dumbledore thought
In-Reply-To: <3B0DB6B0.4B48026D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9elbuv+1pps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19444

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Jan has now read SS and CoS, and is getting into PoA [one of the few
> benefits of having one's husband down for days with a bad back is 
that
> he reads the books!].
> 
> He wanted to know if there was any firm canonical evidence that
> Dumbledore himself attended Hogwarts. And I don't know that there 
is.
> Hmm.
> 
> Jan's just brainstorming, he does that, and he was simply pointing 
out
> that this might be another assumption we're making. Like our 
assumption
> he was in Gryffindor, when the only basis for this is Hermione in 
book 1
> saying "I hear Dumbledore himself was in Gryffindor" or something to
> that effect, which is not rock-solid.
> 
> Probably he *was* at Hogwarts and he *was* in Gryffindor and JKR 
would
> be truly astonished that we could entertain any other thought, but 
as
> usual Jan got me thinking, so I thought I'd ask. Am I not 
remembering
> something? Or have we all just assumed?
> 
> --Amanda


As far as I recall, there is no other evidence that Dumbledore 
attended Hogwarts. Nonetheless, I think the quote you mention is 
evidence enough. My reason is simple. These little pieces of 
information, casually thrown by Hermione (preceded with a "I hear" 
or "supposed to") are always true. At least, I cannot recall one case 
when Hermione said such a thing and it turned out to be untrue. It 
seems to me, well, unfair, for an author to be inconsistent in these 
things. It would be very arbitrary to have one such fact be true and 
another turn out to be untrue. 
That's just my inexpert opinion, though. What do the writers/lit 
crits have to say on this?



Naama, in pursuit of knowledge 




From mark_weasley at hotmail.com  Fri May 25 10:32:47 2001
From: mark_weasley at hotmail.com (mark_weasley at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:32:47 -0000
Subject: An Idea about Dumbledore
Message-ID: <9elccf+i8qv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19445

Hi.  This started when I was thinking about which Houses various 
Hogwarts alumni have been sorted into.  James, Sirius, Lupin, 
Wormtail, Lily, McGonagall, Hagrid and (supposedly) Dumbledore were 
all Gryffindors.  

This got me wondering next if there was a correlation between a 
student's House (which is based on one's personality) and a 
predisposition to a particular magical skill area.  A number of 
Gryffindors-- 4 we know of-- practice Animagic, an advanced kind of 
Transfiguration.  McGonagall and Dumbledore are/were teachers of 
Transfiguration, so I guess they'd be personally highly-skilled in 
that sphere of magic.  Hmm....

Idea:  COULD DUMBLEDORE BE AN ANIMAGUS?!?  We haven't seen much of 
his powers, after all.  I'm sure he'd have the knowledge to be one, 
and the requisite skill definitely.  Would he be a registered 
Animagus?  It's illegal to be an Animagus without a license.  Maybe 
he can do it, but he's never done it or he metamorphoses only in very 
rare instances. 

Albus the Animagus.  What animal would he turn into?
A bumblebee or an owl?  Cute, but not too useful.
A lion or a griffin?  Symbols of Gryffindor.
A phoenix!  This creature is turning out to play a key role in the 
series.
A silvery unicorn or an powerful ancient dragon?  I'd like that.  
(I'm picturing the Dark wizard Grindelwald flattened by a whimsical 
white dragon.)  =)

Ooh, speculation, speculation, what fun!  Whee!  

--Mark
<:-P




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Fri May 25 10:54:52 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:54:52 -0000
Subject: - Dumbledore in PS/SS
In-Reply-To: <9ejvt4+os86@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eldls+fv2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19446

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote:
> > was anyone else as disappointed as I to learn in GoF that
> > the only reason baby Harry had defeated Voldemort the first
> > time was due to Lily's sacrificial death? I'd always thought
> > that it was Harry's kinetic wizarding powers that resulted in
> > Voldy's defeat.

Definitely not disappointed. But then I belong (very firmly indeed ) 
to the anti-UberHarry camp. I want Harry to be brave and clever and 
good, but not a being-set-apart kind of hero. I love that it's Lily's 
love that saved Harry, although I agree that there must have been 
something more. But the something more need not be something in 
Harry. It could be something in Lily, or a combination of 
circumstances. 

> 
> Not disappointed - because Dumbledore hinted at it at the end
> of PS, and Tom Riddle realised it too in CS and kicked himself
> (figuratively, I think).
> 
> When I get to see GOF presumably I'll understand better, but from
> an idea of Roger Zelazny's later Amber novels - that powerful
> wizards get lazy - my current idea is that Voldemort aimed a
> simple killing stroke at Harry, which a baby wizard couldn't
> possibly deflect 

I don't understant what you mean by "a simple killing stroke"? As far 
as I understand, Voldy did an Avada Kedavra on Harry, just as he did 
on Lily and James. Do you think there are different ways to do an AK? 


Naama


Naama




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri May 25 11:20:35 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:20:35 -0000
Subject: Hagrid (was Chess Flint?)
In-Reply-To: <9ejs3t+dqo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9elf63+p8l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19447

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> Incidentally, this HP community seems to have taken lightly
> the irruption in its midst of Mark _Weasley_, perhaps because
> Hermione.Granger is a member already...?
> 
> Robert Carnegie
> Glasgow, Scotland
> 
> "I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed 
American
> office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
> Stupid Things Overheard)

And we also have Snape's wife, George Weasley's girlfriend (or are 
they married now?), Professor Dumbledore crops up now and again.  The 
animals are also represented (Pigwidgeon) and even the Weasley's car 
(Flying Ford Anglia).  Need I go on...?

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri May 25 11:23:53 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:23:53 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters: Lupin, Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <000201c0e494$3fe467c0$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9elfc9+mhbp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19448

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> >I do.  I think that a man who turns into a crazed beast for a few
> > days every month would be the type of sensitive, sympathetic lover
> > that any woman would appreciate
> 
> And the one thing you do know about a werewolf lover, they'll 
*never* do the
> crass PMS comments.
> 
> Susan

Yep - although those involved with them may do.  Anyone remember the 
episode of Buffy, when Willow finds out that Oz is a werewolf.  She 
says something about being cranky 3 days in the month as well.  
Sorry, this is seriously OT.

Catherine




From taivimbra at interlap.com.ar  Fri May 25 11:29:19 2001
From: taivimbra at interlap.com.ar (taivimbra)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:29:19 +0200
Subject: rita skeeter + mathilda
Message-ID: <002701c0e50d$f3fdb580$3b74523e@rafa>

No: HPFGUIDX 19449

Hi!
This is my first post and I'm Spanish, so I hope you'll be able to understand it - though I read the English version of GoF, I haven't written anything in English for a long time... Excuse my faults...

I want to say something about Rita Skeeter, cause I think that she fits perfectly in the plot for some reasons, I think she was meant to be from the beginning, and not invented after the hype...

1. Without her, Hagrid wouldn't have faced his giant heritage, he would still be ashamed of it and hiding it from his friends, afraid of what they would say... And now, Mme Maxine may see that there's no reason for keep saying she has big bones: if Hagrid recognizes it openly, why not her? 

2. Without her articles, Slytherins couldn't have laughed at Harry (well, at last, not so much), and I think it?s JK's will that he suffers more and more scorn  and slyness from his classmates in every book... (and I thought that after all that "you are the heir of Slytherin" it was all over... poor ingenuous me) to remember us how cruel schoolboys can be (and because this way, Harry won't become too conceited - after all, he's saving the world in almost every book...!!)

3. Without her, Hermione could't have shown once again that she can find anything in the library, and save their butts (remember the basilisk?) Well, in fact this is not essential to the plot, but liked it: I liked her getting her revenge against the beetle!!!

So, she's mean, she's conceited and she makes them unhappy, but, the book would't be the same without her!!! The same about Lockhart -without him fooling around and trying to show off, Harry wouldn't have learned to do the Expelliarmus spell (sure Snape wouldn't have taught him to use it!!)

This is only my point of view, I don't worry about how bad are they - hey, Voldemort is bad indeed, but without him, there wouldn't be story... it would be all like "we're so happy we are wizards and have broomsticks and all that... "

By the way, you've saved me with the shorthand : I won't ever ask myself what the hell does IMNSHO mean ...

And my 2nd.thounght of today:
Have you read Roald Dahl's "Mathilda"??  or seen the movie? Is Mathilda's family the Dursley family in a parallel universe?

hoping not to have forgotten all my English

Tai


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri May 25 11:44:07 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:44:07 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9ek2q8+5olm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9elgi7+oiaj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19450

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> >
> Vicky wrote: 
> >   I realize that, but that's why I get tired of hearing about 
him. 
> So dang popular. I mean, he's not a bad guy, and very loyal, but 
> Hermione is definitely better. I mean, Harry would never have 
gotten 
> to do what he gets credit for without their help. I know Ron and 
> Hermione get credit as well, but it isn't fair that he gets more of 
> it.
> > 
> 
> Hmm... I understand what you meant about Harry getting plenty of 
help 
> from his friends, but I'm not sure what you mean about Harry 
getting 
> more credit than they do.  The way I see it is that Harry has no 
> parents (and knowing his parents were murdered is an awful thing to 
> live with), while Hermione and Ron have both parents, are loved by 
> their parents, and supported (emotionally, in particular).  I'd say 
> the two of them get plenty of credit.  Remember, there are times 
when 
> Ron and Hermione are not supposed to be helping Harry anyway, and 
he 
> has to face most things by himself, Voldie being the biggest one.
> 
> Hermione is better?  She's definitely the smartest of the three, 
and 
> possibly the most perceptive (she knows Draco isn't the Heir of 
> Slytherin and questions Trelawney right away), but I also think 
Harry 
> treats her with a good deal of respect.  Although he does get angry 
at 
> her, it is Ron's words we hear exchanged with Hermione, not 
Harry's.  
> As far as Ron is concerned, Harry is also willing to give Ron as 
much 
> money as Ron needed - if Ron would accept it.
> 
> In the end, I think the three of them work best together as a team, 
> because they each have equally important things to contribute to 
their 
> friendship.  I would also say that Harry is the happiest when is he 
is 
> with both of them - when he encountered the Dementor in the maze at 
> the end of GoF, he imagines celebrating with both Hermione and Ron 
> after the tournament is over and that's what gives him the Patronus.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw***************************

I'm agreeing with you, yet again, Jenny.  I just wanted to take issue 
with the fact that Vicky is complaining that Harry is so popular.  I 
don't think he is.  In at least three of the books, he goes through 
patches when he is alienated by almost the whole school.  In PS/SS, 
he is ostracised by everyone except Ron, when he, Hermione and 
Neville lose so many points for Gryffindor.  In CoS, he becomes very 
unpopular when many people think he is responsible for opening the 
Chamber of Secrets.  In GoF, he is again ostracised by the rest of 
the school (except for the Gryffindors, but including Ron) when his 
name comes out of the Goblet of Fire.  

I think that JKR does this deliberately, so that Harry constantly has 
to prove himself and win popularity from his peers.  She is showing 
that fame is very much a double edged sword - afterall, no one would 
have taken as much notice of him losing all those points if he hadn't 
been the famous Harry Potter.  I think that she is portraying Harry 
as someone slightly introverted, who finds it hard to fit in, not Mr 
Popularity who  can do no wrong.  I also think that Hermione and Ron 
do get credit where it is due - at least in the first two books.  
They all get extra points and help Gryffindor win the cup.  He and 
Ron both get special awards from the school and get 200 points apiece 
for their house.  The only time I think that isn't the case is when 
Hermione in particular helps Harry with the summoning charm and 
doesn't get any credit for it - but afterall, Harry is the one under 
pressure, who is facing animosity from the rest of the school and 
Ron - he is the one who has to face the tasks, the others only have 
to do so vicariously, and the end result isn't glory and additional 
fame due to winning - this just does not happen because of the 
intervention of Voldemort and the death of Cedric.

I agree that Harry would not do as well without Hermione and Ron 
(except at Quidditch), but I also think that they do not have as much 
pressure on them to do well - they simply do not have the same 
burdens Harry does.  Yet, as Jenny says, he wants to share all his 
successes with them - giving the Weasley twins the winnings from the 
tournament is a roundabout way of doing this.

Sorry for the rant.  Although I love many of the characters in these 
books, Harry does remain my favourite.  I am fascinated by him - not 
least because although most of the narrative is from his POV, I still 
find him very enigmatic.

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri May 25 11:50:00 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:50:00 -0000
Subject: Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9ek631+oon3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9elgt8+jmfn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19451

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> > Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
> 
> 
> I am in awe.
> 
> Steve 
> (genuflecting)

I second this.  It is inspired!  I've never been moved to praise one 
of your excellent filks before, but this was definitely 
supercalifragilisticexpialidotious.  (Is that right??)

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri May 25 12:03:16 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:03:16 -0000
Subject: Cats-Kneazles-Crookshanks-Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <9ekmpi+67km@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9elhm4+3oau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19452

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> Arabella Figg. Who is she and when will we find out about her? I 
> recently finished reading "Jude the Obscure" (yes I was reading it 
in 
> Feb., but I put it down for a month, or two, or three :-) so...) 
and 
> while I don't think JKR necessarily took Arabella's name from it, 
it 
> IS the only other book I've ever read with a character named 
> Arabella. Any speculation? (If this is correct I don't think we 
> should hold out much hope for her character.)
> 
> As far as Crookshanks goes there has been lots of theories as to
> M(r)s. Figg being an animagus etc. But my best bet is that
> 
> A) She's a Kneazle breeder, and that's why there are so many "cats" 
> around.
> or B) The cats are there to detect anything unsavoury that might 
harm 
> Harry. 
> 
> I know, I know! Both these thoughts have been expressed before, but 
> It seemed like a nice thing to add to the  Arabella thread.
> 
> Scott

Again, this is slightly OT, but, it may have some relevance...  
Another Arabella I though of was Georgette Heyer's character in the 
book of the same name.  This character is very good - she is a 
vicar's daughter, and although she takes fashionable Regency London 
by storm, she is very tender-hearted - rescuing orphan chimney-sweep 
boys from their masters who beat them, adopting stray dogs etc. etc.  
Perhaps Arabella Figg is runing an unofficial home for stray 
cats/kneazles?  And perhaps she thinks it is her duty to keep an eye 
on poor orphan Harry??

Catherine






From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri May 25 12:14:18 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:14:18 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's eating habits [coming in late]
In-Reply-To: <20010523175440.1966.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eliaq+4tca@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19453

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A B <old_wych at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- rick824 at w... wrote:
> > 
> >   I was thinking about the living conditions for
> > Hagrid just the other day.  Why does he cook in his
> > little cabin when he could just walk up to the
> > school and eat with the students?  Are teachers not
> > suppose to eat with the students unless its a
> > "Feast" such as at Halloween or Chirstmas?  I am
> > sure the house elves wouldnt mind making a few extra
> > plates for the teachers!
> >  Rick
> > 
> > 
> The teachers do normally eat in the Great Hall. I can
> think of a scene where Prof. McGonnagal broke up a
> confrontation between Harry and Draco at breakfast in
> PS/SS. I believe JKR once said in an interview or chat
> that Hagrid likes his own cooking. Maybe stoat
> sandwiches, rock cakes, and teacle fudge that glues
> your mouth shut are not on the Hogwarts menu.
> 
> Anne
> 

There's also the fact that until CoS ended, Hagrid was 1) just the 
gameskeeper and 2) in disgrace in the eyes of everyone but Dumbledore 
and the Trio.

So he probably wanted to stay out of sight and mind because he was 
looked down upon, pitied, or otherwise not getting a reception 
conducive to wanting to hang out at Hogwarts proper.






From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May 25 12:25:40 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:25:40 -0000
Subject: Howarts Food
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAELADJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9elj04+68a3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19454

"Howarts"??? Is that like Howart's Johnson? LOL!

Or is Howarts a Harry Potter character that I missed in my readings? 
He must be a famous Quidditch player. I admit to not reading that 
book as thoroughly as I probably should have. QTA is a big yawn. I 
much preferred FB.

Just rattling your chain, Simon!
Doreen, giggling over Howarts




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May 25 12:34:11 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:34:11 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's eating habits 
In-Reply-To: <9eliaq+4tca@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eljg3+olvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19455

> There's also the fact that until CoS ended, Hagrid was 1) just the 
> gameskeeper and 2) in disgrace in the eyes of everyone but 
Dumbledore 
> and the Trio.
> 
> So he probably wanted to stay out of sight and mind because he was 
> looked down upon, pitied, or otherwise not getting a reception 
> conducive to wanting to hang out at Hogwarts proper.
***************************************
Poor Hagrid! It seems that he is just plain unloved and 
misunderstood. Maybe a better future is in store for him in OoP. 
Maybe he and Maxime will find wedded bliss and Hagrid won't have to 
bring home weird creatures because he will have a hut full of baby 
Giants to care for.

(I was really glad to see his romantic involvement with Maxime, as 
the pink umbrella had me worried.)

Doreen, who still feels gyped cuz her Hagrid did not come with a pink 
umbrella




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Fri May 25 12:47:01 2001
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellie Rosenthal)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:47:01 -0000
Subject: Lily's Sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <9ekeai+thrt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9elk85+rp9f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19456

I don't think this is backed up by the canon, but I'm almost sure 
that Lily cast some extra charm or spell of some sort to protect 
Harry. From what we overheard from Harry's encounters with dementors, 
James died protecting Lily and Harry. By the logic Dumbledore 
presents us, shouldn't Lily have been saved as well? Another reason I 
subscribe to this theory is Ollivander's supposedly offhand remark 
that Lily's wand is "excellent for charm work". I've done a bit of 
research on the qualities of wands 
(http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/wands.html), and I've found that 
Ollivander is very correct when he states "The wand chooses the 
wizard". If anyone has any ideas regarding this theory, I'd love to 
hear them.

Priscilla Spencer
http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/

--- partyperson_dpc at y... wrote:
> Okay, somebody posted that they were disappointed that the only 
> reason that Harry survived and defeated Voldemort were because of 
> Lily's sacrificial death. See, that's what I thought for awhile 
too. 
> But then I started thinking about it more in depth--and I concluded 
> that something other than her sacrifice defeated Voldemort. Because 
> Voldemort killed so many people, don't you think that somewhere 
along 
> the line, some mother must have tried to protect their child and 
died 
> in the process? But no other child got a lightning shaped scar of 
> their forehead and defeated him, right? So I'm thinking Harry must 
> have something VERY special about him. Yes, her sacrifice is what 
> saved him and repelled Voldemort. But what defeated him? I don't 
> think we know that yet. At the end of SS, Dumbledore clearly states 
> that her love and sacrifice were protection against Voldemort, who 
is 
> evil personified and therefore her sacrificial love PROTECTED 
Harry. 
> But what defeated Voldemort? Clearly, there is something to Harry 
> that he and the readers haven't fully realized yet. I could be 
wrong 
> about this--but hey, just stating my opinion. Tell me what ya'll 
> think.
> ~E




From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri May 25 12:49:33 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:49:33 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <OE6i6nx8dyDd3OJXsNQ00002a81@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9elkct+ujk8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19457

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> Jenny:
> Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?  
> 
> No. I dislike him as well. He was a fraud, and everyone but 
Hermione knew it. It grated on me how he always embarrassed Harry, 
and CoS is my least fav book as well. I think SS and GoF are my favs.
> 
> Vicky
> 
Actually, Mrs. Weasley also thinks that Gilderoy is the cat's 
pajamas.  That bugged me a lot that she and Hermione both fell for 
his pretty face without bothering to look closer and see that there 
was no gold behind all that glitter.

And yes, I dislike him too because he assumed Harry wanted to cash in 
on his fame because he, Gilderoy, had conjured fame out of dishonesty 
so he could cash in.

Clueless people who act like know-it-alls are very annoying.  

But kudos to JKR for writing the characterization so believably! 

Indigo





From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri May 25 12:53:42 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:53:42 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <000001c0e494$3b369720$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9elkkm+epm3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19458

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> >Am I the only one who really dislikes Lockhart?
> 
> No.  Lockhart, IMO is interesting and important because he is 
completely,
> unmitigatedly and irredeemably evil (oh yes he is.  Just read that 
scene in
> the lair of the Basilisk.  He's a professional brainwasher and he 
is quite
> happy to leave an 11 year old kid to a horrible death if it will 
sell him
> more books) and  *still *nothing to do with Voldemort.  Which is 
where
> Rowling scores massively over her predecessors, tolkein and all.  
Because in
> other works you have the personification of evil, and all the evil
> characters are working for him.  The idea that you could have 
little clumps
> of evil off on a frolic of their own never even occurred to them
> (manicheeism rules, black or white).  I think he's great.  And 
nothing is
> too bad to happen to him.
> 
> Susan

I don't think Lockhart is evil in that sense of the word.

I just think he is really self-centered to the point where he 
believes his right to fame, fortune, glory and a lifestyle to which 
anyone would like to become accustomed  supercedes anyone else's 
rights.

I know people like that RL, who will step on their friends' toes and 
hearts just because that made it easier for them to get the brass 
ring their friend might've been reaching for, and then blink dumbly 
in honest confusion when asked why they did so.

Gilderoy strikes me as the sort of person it just plain never occurs 
to to think of other people than himself.

Misguided, certainly.

But I don't think he was malicious really.  I think he 
thought, "Shame that the boys will have to have memory charms placed 
on them, but if I'm to keep my image unsullied..."

It'll be interesting to see how he turns out now that he's having to 
be re-taught everything with the backfire of his last Memory Charm.

Indigo




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Fri May 25 12:56:25 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:56:25 +0100
Subject: Hagrid, Maxime and giant babies
In-Reply-To: <9eljg3+olvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKELIDJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 19459

Doreen: <<<Poor Hagrid! It seems that he is just plain unloved and
misunderstood. Maybe a better future is in store for him in OoP. Maybe he and
Maxime will find wedded bliss and Hagrid won't have to bring home weird
creatures because he will have a hut full of baby Giants to care for.>>>

Now we know that Hagrid is half-giant and we are left to assume that Maxime is
similar. So if these two were to have kids, as Doreen jokingly commented, then
they could have anything from purely human babies to purely giant babies
(assuming a simple genetic model). I wonder how painful it would be for MM to
give birth to a fully giant baby.


Simon (being male I do not have to worry about this painful giving birth lark,
but for some reason Doreen's comment jumped up for a reply)
--
HPforGrownUps is the place for the best weekly chat about all things related
to the Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling. That chats are on Sunday, starting
at around 8 pm GMT. For more information please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsChatScripts or feel free to e-mail
me at mailto:simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri May 25 12:58:40 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:58:40 -0000
Subject: Lily's sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <OE76aDXYhko0nQZEMO600002990@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9elku0+fgs8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19460

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> Speaking of Lily's sacrifice, now that Voldy's got some of Harry's 
blood, does this entitle him to the same protection Lily afforded 
Harry?
> 
> Vicky
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I want to say 'no,' because Voldy doesn't deserve it.

But all things considered, Harry is Lily's son, and Lily was trying 
to protect him from Voldemort.

So it's possible old Voldie does have similar protection now.

Then again, if he does, it's also possible that protection is working 
*against* him since he was who Lily's protection was *from*.

Indigo




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri May 25 12:57:44 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:57:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Least Fave Characters
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F909B@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19461

Magda wrote: 
> Rita Skeeter: I just could not believe that the Daily Prophet could
> be a regular newspaper for three books and then morph into a tabloid.
>  RS is not at all believable to me and I usually skipped quickly over
> any scenes that she was in.  
> 
Which means  you may've missed the fact that the article about Hermione
wasn't in the DP - it was in Witch Weekly, which feels more like a tabloidy
magazine, with recipes and famous-people gossip, than the regular paper.
That was a tabloid article. The ones about Hagrid, or hypothesizing about
Harry's mental state, could be more akin to the sort of articles found in a
real paper - I don't want to draw parallels to US politics & run afoul of
the list, but it didn't seem awkward or unbelievable to me for a mainstream
newspaper to run articles that don't give all the facts. 

Ebony, any thoughts?



From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri May 25 13:06:04 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:06:04 -0000
Subject: House Elves
In-Reply-To: <20010524235657.59379.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ellbs+7u01@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19462

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> > I know.  The house elves are very Jar-Jar Binks.  Sets
> > my teeth on edge.  
> 
> <grin> I rather agree. I've never liked the house elves, especially
> their manner of speaking. I was hoping they'd disappear after CoS 
but
> no such luck. 
> 
> On the other hand, I think our list elves are swell. <grin> 
> 
> Does anyone particularly like the house elves? If so, why? Just
> curious; I could be looking at things wrong.
> 
> ~Amber
> 

I like them.

I think that, like many other slaves, they just aren't afforded 
education, so don't realize their manner of speaking is incorrect 
[and thusly grating on folks who are concerned with such].

Dobby, I just love.  I was horrified in CoS when it was revealed that 
Dobby had caused Harry to miss the train, and Dobby had been the 
reason the bludger broke Harry's arm.

It was a great relief to see that okay, those were terrible things 
Dobby did, but with the best intentions at heart, even if they were 
misguided.

Winky, on the other hand, completely drove me up the wall.  She seems 
spineless to me.

Yes, I know other house-elves consider her more the standard and 
Dobby the oddball when it comes to the house elf standing on "happy 
workers, joy is in our industry"  -- but Winky got other work to do, 
and is still miserable because she's that attached to a family that 
didn't treat her well at all...and had her doing things that were 
illegal in a major way.

She thought the world of Barty Crouch Senior who is obviously a man 
whose ambitions outweigh his love [or at least acting loving] for his 
family [as a Sirius fan, I can't help pointing out Sirius mentioned 
this!]...and actually believed that Barty Jr was a good boy.

In short, she was a sweet nitwit who didn't think.

Dobby, on the other hand, thinks quite a lot, and the difference is 
telling in my mind.

Indigo




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 13:15:00 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 06:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's visit
In-Reply-To: <13.1629d8fd.283f1c45@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010525131500.57484.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19463


--- devika261 at aol.com wrote:
> How about St. Mungo's Hospital? Considering what we have found out
> about Neville's parents, it seems probable 
> that we will be hearing more about them (or more about Neville,
> anyway), and  St. Mungo's might be a good place to start.  

I've always thought in my mind that all students at Hogwarts would have
to take a field trip to St. Mungo's. Especially ones who want to
specialize in Health Magic. I can easily see the sixth or seventh years
going there to see the effects of Dark Magic on wizards/witches and how
the nurses/doctors are treating them. 

I've always wondered why the students *don't* have field trips. I mean,
there's only so much you can learn from books and controlled
experiments in the classroom. Seeing the effects of Dark Magic is
different from reading about it. 

Heck, I just want to see a wizarding hospitol (hospital?). It'd be neat
to see the differences between it and a muggle one. I wonder what
physical miracles they can perform...

~Amber
 

=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
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From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 13:22:34 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 06:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid, Maxime and giant babies
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKELIDJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20010525132234.33272.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19464

Speaking of the logistics of human/giant reproduction,
wouldn't all such combinations have to be female
giant/male human, in order to avoid a human woman
having to give birth to a half-giant baby (which would
probably kill her, even with a C-section)?

--Barb

(who had two kids with craniums in the 95th percentile
and no DRUGS during childbirth)


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From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 13:31:34 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 06:31:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Howarts Food
In-Reply-To: <9ekm39+bsus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525133134.83080.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19465


--- Scott <insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I am suprised that the trio aren't so fat the had to waddle up the 
> stairs. Of course it is fiction, so as realistic as the characters 
> may seem they can still eat as many helpings of pudding as they can 
> hold and not gain an inch. (sigh).

Within many other book series that deal with magic, it seems to be the
consensus that doing magic takes up a great deal of energy. One author
(not JKR) likened magic to standing on one leg on top of the rain
gutter of a three-story house while juggling three apples and reciting
an epic poem at the top of your lungs in another language. It takes
incredible concentration and energy. I just assumed that JKR's world
worked on a similar magic system. Hence the big, heavy meals.

Of course, we don't *know* that magic works that way. JKR hasn't
precisely set down the rules to my satisfaction anyways. But that would
be my guess.

~Amber


=====
"I see the world gradually being turned into a wilderness, 
I hear the ever approaching thunder, which will destroy us too, 
I can feel the sufferings of millions and yet, 
if I look up into the heavens, I think that it will come right, 
that this cruelty too will end..."
 - Anne Frank "The Diary of a Young Girl"

__________________________________________________
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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri May 25 13:25:10 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:25:10 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F909E@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19466



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Caius Marcius [mailto:coriolan at worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 7:13 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
> 
> 
> Real-To:  "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
> 
> Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
> 
> Dedicated to Heidi Tandy

This is amazing! And I am overwhelmed by the dedication (it's because I am
going to disney this weekend, isn't it?)
If they play the Mary Poppins song while I'm on the carousel with my 22
month old, I will sing at the top of my voice. Well, okay, I'll sing
quietly, so they don't throw me out of the park for offending the masses
with my terrible voice...



From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 13:51:26 2001
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:51:26 +0200
Subject: Dear Professor Venusian/Snapelovers united
References: <103.3dbd5d3.283f18a5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <016401c0e521$cc10abe0$3e2e07d5@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19467

I am very grateful that you are concerned enough to recomend your book to me
personally. I am sure it is a very literate and well researched piece of
fiction... ahem, life-advice. Nevermind that.

With eternal gratefulness,

Mrs. Snape

LOL! Aww, thanks for being worried, I appreciate it. That just made a bad
day nice - I think it was the first time I smiled at all today. Now that's a
book I'd like to see printed.

He's tall, dark and brooding, what can I say? I feel a (sometimes not so)
quiet affection for him, especially when Remus and Sirius once again manage
to be the ones on top while he looks not so clever. It's life, but not
really fair.

But then, life never was fair to Remus and Sirius either, so I guess it all
equals out at the end.

Dinah


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From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 14:38:55 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:38:55 -0000
Subject: Howarts Food
In-Reply-To: <9elj04+68a3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9elqpv+gqpk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19468

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> "Howarts"??? Is that like Howart's Johnson? LOL!
> 
> Or is Howarts a Harry Potter character that I missed in my 
readings? 

> Just rattling your chain, Simon!
> Doreen, giggling over Howarts

Oh, sorry I can't resist:  (and this is especially bad since I am the 
QUEEN of typos)

Maybe "Howarts" is the wing of St. Mungo's for STDs!
Stephanie  








From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May 25 14:53:39 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:53:39 -0000
Subject: Howarts Food
In-Reply-To: <9ekm39+bsus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9elrlj+2tpg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19469

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> This was mentioned hundreds of messages ago, but I just have to add, 
> because I love food disscussions, and it's about time we had another 
> one. 
> 
> I am suprised that the trio aren't so fat the had to waddle up the 
> stairs. Of course it is fiction, so as realistic as the characters 
> may seem they can still eat as many helpings of pudding as they can 
> hold and not gain an inch. (sigh).
> 

During my time, my college was rumored to have the best tasting food 
among the colleges and universities in the city. Doctors from the 
nearby Children's Hospital and the Trauma Center would sometimes eat 
lunch and breakfast there. Needless to say, we never thought the food 
was that special. I guess when you're used to eating it, it loses it's 
specialness. For example, I remember during my Freshman year, the 
upperclassmen would say how the food wasn't as good as it was when 
they were freshman. Yes, when I became a "sage" upperclassmen, I 
thought the same thing! 

Like Hogwarts, the 'holiday meals' were fabulous! Thanksgiving with 
it's traditional turkey and trimmings, ham, pies, cakes....Christmas 
with it's Cornish game hens and a saddle of roast beef, along with the 
side dishes, pies, cakes. Founder's Day was special: a barbeque-picnic 
lunch then a banquet in the evening.
The fun thing about the 'holiday meals' was that the President of the 
College and the Deans served the food. It was a lot of fun telling the 
Dean of Student Affairs to give you a big spoonful of the cornbread 
stuffing.

> Simon said that he likes cooking for himself which I can't 
> understand, because though I love to cook for other people, I can't 
> stand eating my concoctions myself. I don't know why, they are 
> perfectly delicious, but something about making it takes away my 
> appetite. Hmmm, to tie this back on topic I don't guess that the 
> common rooms have kitchens, but I'm suprised that they don't have 
> anywhere for food, since they must want a midnight snack sometime. 
> 

I share your problem! My mother always said that when you cook, the 
aromas from the cooking food 'fill you up', so you lose your appetite. 

Milz




From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 15:03:02 2001
From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Dumbledore thought
In-Reply-To: <3B0DB6B0.4B48026D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010525150302.8419.qmail@web5407.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19470

--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> Jan has now read SS and CoS, and is getting into PoA [one of the
> few
> benefits of having one's husband down for days with a bad back is
> that
> he reads the books!].
> 
> He wanted to know if there was any firm canonical evidence that
> Dumbledore himself attended Hogwarts. And I don't know that there
> is.
> Hmm.
> 
> Jan's just brainstorming, he does that, and he was simply pointing
> out
> that this might be another assumption we're making. Like our
> assumption
> he was in Gryffindor, when the only basis for this is Hermione in
> book 1
> saying "I hear Dumbledore himself was in Gryffindor" or something
> to
> that effect, which is not rock-solid.
> 
> Probably he *was* at Hogwarts and he *was* in Gryffindor and JKR
> would
> be truly astonished that we could entertain any other thought, but
> as
> usual Jan got me thinking, so I thought I'd ask. Am I not
> remembering
> something? Or have we all just assumed?
> 
> --Amanda

We do know that Dumbledore was in Gryffindor because of Hermione.  in
PS ch. 6, Hermione comes into Harry and Ron's looking for Neville's
toad.  

"Do either of you know what house you'll be in?  I've been asking
around and I hope I'm in Gyffindor, it sounds the best, I hear
Dumbledore himself was one, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too
bad..."  (p.79-80, UK pbk.)

And can I humor you?  My favorite line is in this scene. After
Hermione gives her whole spill, JKR writes "She said all this very
fast."

Hope that helps!

- Jamie


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From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 15:04:22 2001
From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's sacrifice
In-Reply-To: <9elku0+fgs8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525150422.8453.qmail@web5407.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19471

--- Indigo <indigo at indigosky.net> wrote:

> So it's possible old Voldie does have similar protection now.
> 
> Then again, if he does, it's also possible that protection is
> working 
> *against* him since he was who Lily's protection was *from*.

Ok, this is a really good theory and it pulls a lot of things
together, like Dumbledore's "gleam."  I really want to know what that
man knows!

- Jamie

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From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 15:06:28 2001
From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin - Fleur/Bill - Errol - Remus - Lockhart - Mrs. Snape -  Arabella - Food
In-Reply-To: <3B0E1693.633960F7@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <20010525150628.21515.qmail@web5406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19472


--- Catlady <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> Barbara Purdom wrote:
> >  Are there any Muggle-borns at all in Slytherin?
> I wonder about that too. There is a conflict between Salazar's
> objection
> to educating Muggle-borns and the Hat's statement that devious
> ambitious
> people go into Slytherin House. I fantasize a Muggle-born student
> being
> Sorted into Slytherin House, being (badly) harassed by Draco and
> the
> other racists, and Snape does his House Master duty (forcing the
> students to get along together) by telling Draco that the student
> cannot
> be really a Mudblood, must have been switched at birth (hi, Heidi!)
> or
> be some wizard's bastard, because the Sorting Hat put her in
> Slytherin
> and the Sorting Hat doesn't make mistakes.
______________

Tom Riddle was in Slytherin and his father was a muggle.

- Jamie

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From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May 25 15:13:03 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:13:03 -0000
Subject: Hagrid, Maxime and giant babies
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKELIDJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9elspv+ckrq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19473

Simon wrote:
> Now we know that Hagrid is half-giant and we are left to assume that 
Maxime is
> similar. So if these two were to have kids, as Doreen jokingly 
commented, then
> they could have anything from purely human babies to purely giant 
babies
> (assuming a simple genetic model). I wonder how painful it would be 
for MM to
> give birth to a fully giant baby.

Barb wrote:
                 
>Speaking of the logistics of human/giant reproduction,
>wouldn't all such combinations have to be female
>giant/male human, in order to avoid a human woman
>having to give birth to a half-giant baby (which would
>probably kill her, even with a C-section)?


It would be cute if Hagrid had human-sized babies. No doubt he would 
be a proud daddy no matter what. 

Let's say a "giant" baby is the equivalent to a twin pregancy. Most 
women can carry twins and triplets without much problem (relatively 
speaking of course). Twins and other multiple births are usually 
smaller in weight than the singleton birth, but it's still two or more 
developing humans needing twice  or more as much nutrients from 
mother as opposed to one. 

(BTW, she would most likely need a C-Section!)

Milz   




From margdean at erols.com  Fri May 25 14:48:02 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:48:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck!
References: <9elkct+ujk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B0E70A2.2DA5525@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19474

Indigo wrote:

> Actually, Mrs. Weasley also thinks that Gilderoy is the cat's
> pajamas.  That bugged me a lot that she and Hermione both fell for
> his pretty face without bothering to look closer and see that there
> was no gold behind all that glitter.

Well, let's remember that both Mrs. Weasley and Hermione had
Lockhart's books to go on, too.  Apparently the material in them
was sound, i.e. the spells and other methods worked, even if
Lockhart didn't obtain them the way he said he did.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri May 25 15:45:19 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:45:19 -0000
Subject: An Idea about Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <9elccf+i8qv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9elumf+4jkg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19475

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mark_weasley at h... wrote:
> Hi.  This started when I was thinking about which Houses various 
> Hogwarts alumni have been sorted into.  James, Sirius, Lupin, 
> Wormtail, Lily, McGonagall, Hagrid and (supposedly) Dumbledore were 
> all Gryffindors.  
> 
> This got me wondering next if there was a correlation between a 
> student's House (which is based on one's personality) and a 
> predisposition to a particular magical skill area.  A number of 
> Gryffindors-- 4 we know of-- practice Animagic, an advanced kind of 
> Transfiguration.  McGonagall and Dumbledore are/were teachers of 
> Transfiguration, so I guess they'd be personally highly-skilled in 
> that sphere of magic.  Hmm....
> 
> Idea:  COULD DUMBLEDORE BE AN ANIMAGUS?!?  We haven't seen much of 
> his powers, after all.  I'm sure he'd have the knowledge to be one, 
> and the requisite skill definitely.  Would he be a registered 
> Animagus?  It's illegal to be an Animagus without a license.  Maybe 
> he can do it, but he's never done it or he metamorphoses only in 
very 
> rare instances. 
> 
> Albus the Animagus.  What animal would he turn into?
> A bumblebee or an owl?  Cute, but not too useful.
> A lion or a griffin?  Symbols of Gryffindor.
> A phoenix!  This creature is turning out to play a key role in the 
> series.
> A silvery unicorn or an powerful ancient dragon?  I'd like that.  
> (I'm picturing the Dark wizard Grindelwald flattened by a whimsical 
> white dragon.)  =)
> 
> Ooh, speculation, speculation, what fun!  Whee!  
> 

I had similar thoughts about this too and brought it up back in 
January. Anyhow, I thought Dumbledore would most likely be a 
bumblebee, as his name implies. Hermione only looked at the Animagus 
registry of the 20th Century. Dumbledore, according to Rowling, is 
over 100 years old. He would most likely be in the 19th century 
Animagus registry, but that wouldn't exclude the possibility of being 
unregistered.

Milz




From matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com  Fri May 25 15:52:11 2001
From: matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com (Matthew Dawdy)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:52:11 -0500
Subject: Hello Everyone!
In-Reply-To: <9elspv+ckrq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBJCDBKKPIKOBACKLBCEPCCEAA.matt.dawdy@gpsys-inc.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19476

Hi there -- this is my first post -- I was going to go through all the
archives and make sure that my questions comments have not been posted
before, but you guys are ACTIVE!!!  I joined the list last night, and this
morning there were over 30 messages in my inbox, and before I could even
read them all, 12 more arrived, so I guess I'll just have to jump in.

I was doing some thinking the other day about some cryptic references in the
novels:

1)    Harry was saved because his mother performed some old magic on him.
"His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice....  This is old
magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it... but no
matter.  I can touch him now."  So, I think that her sacrifice was just a
PART of what saved Harry -- perhaps SHE was the one that gave him the scar?

2)    Professor Trelawney -- Dumbledor says that she has made 2 correct and
real predictions -- the second being the rise of voldemort again.  The
first -- we don't know.  However, LV was looking for the Potters 13 years
ago for SOME reason -- perhaps her first prediction was that HP would be his
downfall.  However, why would anyone believe her if she had no earlier track
record?  Hmmm.

3)    I am convinced that Snape was in love with Lilly, and that's where
much of the hatred comes from -- I am just SO thankful that JK has said over
and over again how Harry resembles his father -- no Star Wars like unclear
parentage here!

However, I have read in some earlier posts about how Snape and Sirius might
have been in love with the same girl, Bertha Jorkins saw Snape with here,
Sirius got jealous, hence the prank where JP saved Snape's life....  I am so
confused now!   :)

4)    If Harry was given some protection, and LV now has some of that
protection, too, this is strange.  LV tried the same curse that almost
killed him 13 years ago, so have to assume (?) that he can now cast it and
not fear it rebounding.  So, does that mean that Harrry can kill LV with the
same curse?  Can anyone else in the world NOT kill either of them with that
curse?  I have a feeling its a bit more complicated than that, but who
knows.

5)    Rita Skeeter -- she was present at a VERY momentous meeting -- at the
end of GoF, where she heard all about Sirius, Snape, LV, Hagrid, the whole
bit.  That's where Hermione caught her.  Can we really trust her to NOT
write these articles?  Even with the thought of retribution of being an
unregistered animagus, these would sell a LOT of papers -- no to mention a
deal for her freedom for the whereabouts of Sirius.  Then again, Hermione
stated that their deal was for RS to keep her quill quiet for a year.  So
maybe she won't be in the next book at all -- I like that idea.  But what
about after?  I am afraid for Sirius!  :)

Anyway, I just wanted to throw some of those thoughts out there, and
introduce myself.  Oh yeah, introduce myself.  My name is Matt, I'm 28, a
computer consultant.  I live in Kansas City, and I am a Harry Potter freak.
I am literally going insane waiting for the 5th book.

Matt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 25 16:07:56 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:07:56 -0000
Subject: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived - Where Dumbledore Studied
Message-ID: <9em00s+le7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19477

Pippin wrote:

>It seems to me from this conversation and one Harry has earlier with 
>Ron and Hermione about Dumbledore's being called away, that it was a 
>ruse to get Dumbledore *out of the way*.  Hmm, now I suspect Fudge 
>even more. 

Like others, I figured Quirrell sent it (Harry immediately suspects 
Snape), but you're right, this may be another red flag.  Something is 
rotten in the Ministry of Magic . . . ?  (Besides Avery and Macnair?)

I'd prefer it if Fudge turned out to be the willfully-blind kind of 
evil, not the actively-on-Voldemort's-side kind of evil, though.  The 
former is legion in the real world and causes way more damage, IMO--I 
liked that JKR was starting to explore it at the end of GF.

And along those lines, Susan makes the brilliant observation:

>Lockhart, IMO is interesting and important because he is completely,
>unmitigatedly and irredeemably evil (oh yes he is.  Just read that 
scene in
>the lair of the Basilisk.  He's a professional brainwasher and he is 
quite
>happy to leave an 11 year old kid to a horrible death if it will sell 
him
>more books) and  *still *nothing to do with Voldemort.  Which is 
where
>Rowling scores massively over her predecessors, tolkein and all.

As for the last bit, though, I agree with Robert.  Tolkien has plenty 
of characters who do evil without the direct influence of Sauron:  
Boromir, Saruman, Grima Wormtongue--they are all under the sway of 
their own ambitions and failings.  It isn't just the pull of the Ring 
that makes them go wrong.

Two little things I've noticed recently:

There are =2= Florences (Florence, are you listening?):  she of the 
greenhouse assignation and Firenze, the centaur (Firenze being the 
Italian name for the city of Florence).  I doubt this means anything 
at all, she added hastily, not wanting to be locked in the 200% 
obsessed corner of the loony bin.

In CoS 6, when Draco is joyfully picking on Harry about the "signed 
photos," Ron says, "Eat slugs, Malfoy."  I've noticed this before 
enough to realize that it's the hex he has in mind in the next chapter 
when his wand backfires.  What I haven't noticed until now is that it 
reverses in two ways:  it curses Ron instead of Draco, =and= it makes 
him vomit slugs instead of eat them.  Nice touch, Jo.  (As Hagrid 
says, "Better out than in," so I suppose it's just as well.)

Jami wrote:

> was anyone else as disappointed as I to learn in GoF that
> the only reason baby Harry had defeated Voldemort the first
> time was due to Lily's sacrificial death? I'd always thought
> that it was Harry's kinetic wizarding powers that resulted in
> Voldy's defeat.

Well, as much as I may regret it, we still don't know for sure.  GF 
tells us Voldemort's opinion, but he might be wrong.  (If you haven't 
read GF, stop reading and skip to the next post.  I mean it.  Stop 
now!)  Because of the wand matchup, we never learn whether V can kill 
him with an AK; maybe it would've worked (my guess is yes), maybe not. 
 We know he can touch him now, but that doesn't tell us everything we 
need to know.

Amanda wrote:

>He wanted to know if there was any firm canonical evidence that
>Dumbledore himself attended Hogwarts. And I don't know that there is.
>Hmm.

Hermione's line is the only one that indicates it, IIRC.  IMHO, that's 
firm, but it's a judgment call.

BTW, all you folks who have piped up recently about your fave and 
least fave books, go to Polls and put it in writing!  (Unless you're 
going to put CoS last.  ::sighs::  Am I the =only= person who 
doesn't?)

Catlady wrote <fantasy scene of Fleur at the Burrow>

Why wait for JKR?  Write the thing yourself and post it to ff pronto!

Caius, thanks as always for the laughs.  What a duo:  Johnny Cash and 
Severus Snape, the Men in Black...  And 
"Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration" had me giggling helplessly.  
That one has to go in the filk Hall of Fame.

Amy Z
not normally a giggler

-----------------------------------------------------------
 "You've got just as much right as wizards to be unhappy!"
                             -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri May 25 16:13:45 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:13:45 -0000
Subject: JRRT, JKR, UKLG, and the complexity of evil
Message-ID: <9em0bp+1030n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19478

Susan Hall's post on Lockhart put me in mind of something I just read 
last night.  If you will forgive my quoting a long passage, I found 
that it described very well one reason I love Rowling.  I'll get back 
to HP after the quote.

It is from an essay called "The Child and the Shadow," in _The 
Language of the Night_ (New York: Berkley, 1979), a collection of 
Ursula K. LeGuin's essays and speeches about fantasy and science 
fiction.  She is as good an essayist as a novelist, and I recommend 
this and all her essays very highly.

                    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[Various fascinating observations about shadows and Jungian/fairy-tale 
ways of seeing precede this.]

   In many fantasy tales of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries the 
tension between good and evil, light and dark, is drawn absolutely 
clearly, as a battle, the good guys on one side and the bad guys on 
the other, cops and robbers, Christians and heathens, heroes and 
villains.  In such fantasies I believe the author has tried to force 
reason to lead him where reason cannot go, and has abandoned the 
faithful and frightening guide he should have followed, the shadow.  
These are false fantasies, rationalized fantasies.  They are not the 
real thing.  Let me, by way of exhibiting the real thing, which is 
always much more interesting than the fake one, discuss _The Lord of 
the Rings_ for a minute.
   Critics have been hard on Tolkien for his "simplisticness," his 
division of the inhabitants of Middle Earth into the good people and 
the evil people.  And indeed he does this, and his good people tend to 
be entirely good, though with endearing frailties, while his Orcs and 
other villains are altogether nasty.  But all this is a judgment by 
daylight ethics, by conventional standards of virtue and vice.  When 
you look at the story as a psychic journey, you see something quite 
different, and very strange.  You see then a group of bright figures, 
each one with its black shadow.  Against the Elves, the Orcs.  Against 
Aragorn, the Black Rider.  Against Gandalf, Saruman.  And above all, 
against Frodo, Gollum.  Against him--and with him.
   It is truly complex, because both the figures are already 
doubled.  Sam is, in part, Frodo's shadow, his inferior part.  Gollum 
is two people, too, in a more direct, schizophrenic sense; he's always 
talking to himself, Slinker talking to Stinker, Sam calls it. . . . 
Frodo and Gollum are not only both hobbits; they are the same 
person--and Frodo knows it.  

                    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Someone posted recently that Draco is Ron's double, etc. (please take 
a bow--I couldn't find your post to give credit where credit is due). 
 Voldemort, in multiple ways that have been said many times here, is 
Harry's.  They share a history; they are similar enough to illustrate 
JKR's theme that we are shaped by our choices, not only by parentage, 
inborn attributes, and status.  If Voldemort is too bad to be quite a 
full-fledged character (which I do think he is) and Harry is too good 
to be one (which I don't think, but just for the sake of argument--), 
this simplicity is redeemed by their being paired; they are, in a 
sense, two sides of one person, just like Frodo and Gollum.  I tend to 
read the books novelistically rather than mythologically--looking for 
complete, rounded characters rather than archetypes--but I think you 
can do both.  I do it with Tolkien (Frodo is a rounder character than 
LeGuin makes out, even without his shadows Sam, Smeagol, and Gollum, 
e.g.) and it works for HP too.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
 "And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school 
 song!" cried Dumbledore.  Harry noticed that the other 
 teachers' smiles had become rather fixed.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May 25 16:32:59 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:32:59 -0000
Subject: Fave Characters & Rick Mayall
In-Reply-To: <9elgi7+oiaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9em1fr+amj3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19479

While we are on the subject of favorite characters, I was just 
looking at the movie photos on one of the websites, and checked out 
the actor who will be playing Peeves the Poltergeist. Peeves is one 
of my favorite characters. I crack up at just everything he says and 
does! I know he is a constant source of annoyance to Harry, Ron, & 
Hermione, but you just have to love him, anyway. 

The actor who plays Peeves is none other than Rick Mayall, who played 
in one of my son's and my all-time favorite movies, "Drop Dead Fred". 
If you have not seen it, it was a hoot!!! Rick is SO perfect for the 
part! Now that I have this bit of knowledge, I have been picturing 
the different scenes that Peeves was in and there is just no other 
person for it. I can hardly wait to see the movie, anyway, but now I 
am even more anxious. Sort of like finding an old friend.

Doreen

Only 143 days til November 16, but who's counting?




From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri May 25 16:56:02 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:56:02 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <3B0E70A2.2DA5525@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9em2r2+nhf1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19480

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> Indigo wrote:
> 
> > Actually, Mrs. Weasley also thinks that Gilderoy is the cat's
> > pajamas.  That bugged me a lot that she and Hermione both fell for
> > his pretty face without bothering to look closer and see that 
there
> > was no gold behind all that glitter.
> 
> Well, let's remember that both Mrs. Weasley and Hermione had
> Lockhart's books to go on, too.  Apparently the material in them
> was sound, i.e. the spells and other methods worked, even if
> Lockhart didn't obtain them the way he said he did.
> 

This is true:

But you think with an entire wizarding family, Mrs. Weasley would've 
known better.

Same goes for Hermione who is probably the most well-read wizard 
under the age of 18 in the JKR-verse. 

My guess is there's a glamour charm on all Gilderoy's writing so that 
people don't too closely question the stuff they read 
therein...otherwise, I think neither of these otherwise bright, 
clever women would've bought into it.

After all, Harry and Ron looked briefly through the Gilderoy books 
too and thought they were trash.

And so did a good many of the other students.

Gilderoy's first test: "What's my favourite colour?" and so on had to 
have been a red flag to Hermione if she hadn't been all doe-eyed 
because of Lockhart's pretty face.

Indigo
[who thinks they both should've know better!] 






From vderark at bccs.org  Fri May 25 17:13:43 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:13:43 -0000
Subject: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived - Where Dumbledore Studied
In-Reply-To: <9em00s+le7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9em3s7+e5in@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19481


> In CoS 6, when Draco is joyfully picking on Harry about the "signed 
> photos," Ron says, "Eat slugs, Malfoy."  I've noticed this before 
> enough to realize that it's the hex he has in mind in the next 
chapter 
> when his wand backfires.  What I haven't noticed until now is that 
it 
> reverses in two ways:  it curses Ron instead of Draco, =and= it 
makes 
> him vomit slugs instead of eat them.  Nice touch, Jo.  (As Hagrid 
> says, "Better out than in," so I suppose it's just as well.)
> \

This is a classic example of how intention is so much a part of 
magic. And I hadn't caught the eat ==> vomit connection. Yes, it is 
brilliant.

Notice that Ron doesn't even say any words when he casts that spell. 
His slug-eating intention is enough to cast the spell. Unfortunately 
the spell goes awry. Or is that fortunate? Would Lucius have caused 
probelms if Ron had cursed his son? In GF, Harry and Malfoy actually 
duel (but in another of the Amazing Simultaneous Events of the books, 
the two curses hit each other in midair and hit others). And then, in 
one of the more satisfying moments in any book I've ever read, 
EVERYBODY curses Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle at the end of the book. 
What will Lucius do about that, I wonder? Will Narcissa have to board 
the train to find her little darling and discover him knocked out 
cold on the floor? Will she change her mind about Durmstrang at that 
point? Will the Weasleys find themselves sued by Lucius for 
everything they have?

Steve
in musing mode




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri May 25 17:38:45 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:38:45 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him
In-Reply-To: <9em2r2+nhf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9em5b5+3jn4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19482

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> > Indigo wrote:
> > 
> > > Actually, Mrs. Weasley also thinks that Gilderoy is the cat's
> > > pajamas.  That bugged me a lot that she and Hermione both fell 
for
> > > his pretty face without bothering to look closer and see that 
> there
> > > was no gold behind all that glitter.
> > 
> > Well, let's remember that both Mrs. Weasley and Hermione had
> > Lockhart's books to go on, too.  Apparently the material in them
> > was sound, i.e. the spells and other methods worked, even if
> > Lockhart didn't obtain them the way he said he did.
> > 
> 
> This is true:
> 
> But you think with an entire wizarding family, Mrs. Weasley 
would've 
> known better.
> 
> Same goes for Hermione who is probably the most well-read wizard 
> under the age of 18 in the JKR-verse. 
> 
> My guess is there's a glamour charm on all Gilderoy's writing so 
that 
> people don't too closely question the stuff they read 
> therein...otherwise, I think neither of these otherwise bright, 
> clever women would've bought into it.
> 
> After all, Harry and Ron looked briefly through the Gilderoy books 
> too and thought they were trash.
> 
> And so did a good many of the other students.
> 
> Gilderoy's first test: "What's my favourite colour?" and so on had 
to 
> have been a red flag to Hermione if she hadn't been all doe-eyed 
> because of Lockhart's pretty face.
> 
> Indigo
> [who thinks they both should've know better!]
*************************************************
Ah ... but Molly Weasley also believed all the garbage that Rita 
Skeeter wrote about Hermione. Remember how badly she treated Hermione 
after she read Rita's column?

I think there are a lot of otherwise intelligent women who are under 
the spell of certain charismatic men, such as Gilderoy Lockhart. 
These women sneak copies of trashy tabloids into their shopping carts 
and settle down to their favorite soaps in between household chores 
or college classes. (our commons room at college would be packed to 
overflowing during The Young & the Restless daily!)

Even his name suggests that women would be drawn to him: lock hart. 
Well, there is also the gilderoy part ... gild a roy (wonder if roy 
has any secret meanings such as lily? 

Anyway, I don't think intelligence has anything to do with being 
smitten by good looks and charm. When I think of Gilderoy Lockhart, 
Fabio instantly comes to mind. I didn't like him either, but I think 
he would make a great Lockhart. Too bad he is not British ... or 
maybe that is a good thing.

Doreen, whose favorite soap was Dark Shadows
Only 143 days til November 16




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 17:48:40 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:48:40 -0000
Subject: An Idea about Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <9elumf+4jkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9em5to+hhkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19483

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mark_weasley at h... wrote:
> > Idea:  COULD DUMBLEDORE BE AN ANIMAGUS?!?  We haven't seen much 
of 
> > his powers, after all.  I'm sure he'd have the knowledge to be 
one, 
> > and the requisite skill definitely. <snip> 
> > 
 
> I had similar thoughts about this too and brought it up back in 
> January. Anyhow, I thought Dumbledore would most likely be a 
> bumblebee, as his name implies. Hermione only looked at the 
Animagus 
> registry of the 20th Century. Dumbledore, according to Rowling, is 
> over 100 years old. He would most likely be in the 19th century 
> Animagus registry, but that wouldn't exclude the possibility of 
being 
> unregistered.
> 
> Milz

I think that you're right, Dumbledore is a bee.  People tend to go 
with thier names.  But, there's another possibility that has bothered 
me for a while.  In PS/SS, at the end of the Mirror of Erised (Ch. 
12) Harry realizes that Dumbledore is in the room, they talk for a 
minute about what Harry sees in the mirror and then Dumbledore 
says, "And it showed your friend Ron as Head Boy."






From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 17:57:05 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:57:05 -0000
Subject: An Idea about Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <9elumf+4jkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9em6dh+jldu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19484

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mark_weasley at h... wrote:
> > Idea:  COULD DUMBLEDORE BE AN ANIMAGUS?!?  
> > 
> I had similar thoughts about this too and brought it up back in 
> January. Anyhow, I thought Dumbledore would most likely be a 
> bumblebee, as his name implies. 

I think that Dumbledore is certainly a bumblebee, b/c people just 
match up with their names.  But, there is another possiblility about 
Dumbledore's powers that has bothered me for a while.  In Ch. 12, 
PS/SS, The Mirror of Erised, at the end of the chapter Harry realizes 
that Dumbledore is in the room with him.  They talk for a moment 
about what Harry sees in the mirror and then Dumbledore says,"And 
your friend Ron saw himself as headboy."
"How did you know --" (says Harry).
"I don't need a cloak to become invisible," said Dumbledore gently.

Stephanie 




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 17:58:45 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:58:45 -0000
Subject: Sorry! Read the 2nd one
Message-ID: <9em6gl+tuqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19485

As a toddler I know says "I floppsydoodled."
S




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Fri May 25 18:10:27 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:10:27 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: An Idea about Dumbledore
Message-ID: <1e.16461180.283ffa13@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19486

In a message dated 5/25/2001 1:51:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sdrk1 at yahoo.com writes:

<< I think that you're right, Dumbledore is a bee.  People tend to go 
 with thier names.  But, there's another possibility that has bothered 
 me for a while.  In PS/SS, at the end of the Mirror of Erised (Ch. 
 12) Harry realizes that Dumbledore is in the room, they talk for a 
 minute about what Harry sees in the mirror and then Dumbledore 
 says, "And it showed your friend Ron as Head Boy." >>

What is the other possibility that you inferred from this scene?

Jami 



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 18:52:27 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:52:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived - Where Dumbledore Studied
In-Reply-To: <9em00s+le7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525185227.74173.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19487

  Susan makes the brilliant observation:
> 
> >Lockhart, IMO is interesting and important because
> he is completely,unmitigatedly and irredeemably evil
(oh yes he is. Just read that scene in the lair of the
Basilisk.  He's a professional brainwasher and he is 
> quite happy to leave an 11 year old kid to a
horrible
> death if it will sell him more books) and  *still
*nothing to do with  

Lockhart's (bad) intentions definitely make him an
evil person.  I've been frustrated in the past that a
passage in the Book of Luke (in Latin) that reads "Et
in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis," is now often
translated as: "And on earth peace to people with whom
God is pleased," when that is totally off the wall. 
It means, "And peace on earth to people of good will
(or good volition/intention)."  

I firmly do not believe that the road to hell is paved
with good intentions!  Our whole legal system is based
on assessing a person's intentions; premeditated
murder gets a higher penalty than second-degree murder
or manslaughter.  Intentions had a great deal to do
with Harry being able to acquire the Sorcerer's Stone
from the mirror.  Harry never has anything but good
intentions, even when he inadvertantly causes Cedric's
death, and that's why he should not be blamed.  

(It should be noted that Ron suffers his slug attack
after going after Malfoy with less than good
intentions.)
 
> Catlady wrote <fantasy scene of Fleur at the Burrow>
> 
> Why wait for JKR?  Write the thing yourself and post
> it to ff pronto!
>
I know that I'm using writing fanfiction to assuage my
frustration at having to wait for book five.  I'm
posting my 15th chapter of my own book five today,
Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, to be found at
http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=288212.

I know that JKR said the title of the new book would
be HP and the Order of the Phoenix, but has anyone
noticed how many works are on ff.net now with that
title? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri May 25 18:59:29 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:59:29 -0000
Subject: The Indelible Dreams (filk)
Message-ID: <9ema2h+b2um@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19488

The Indelible Dreams

(To the tune of The Impossible Dream)

Dedicated to Vicky Ra 

(THE SCENE: Harry's room at Gryffindor.  He awakens late at night in 
a cold sweat after another terrible - and no doubt prophetic - 
nightmare)

HARRY
To dream such indelible dreams
To flash back to green flashes that burn
To recall motorcycles a-flying
To get yelled at by my Uncle Vern

To be caged as an underage Wiz
To see Malfoy changing his shape
To rap with an unwrapping turban
To dream anything about Snape

I get no rest
It's hurting my scar
When I'm off in dreamland
Things get so bizarre
I see Wormtail grovel
To Lord Voldemort 
And I'm telling Frank Bryce, "Oh, god, please
Do not go through that door!"

And I know 
That they always come true
`Cause The Sight I possess
And I can't lie peaceful and calm
`Cause I'm too overstressed

And will Hogwarts be better for this?
That one boy, scorched and nursing his scar,
Still strove to at least cop a few "Zs"
Before the night loses its stars!

(HARRY pulls the covers over his head and tries to resume his 
slumbers)

      - CMC

P.S. Thanks to everyone who offered their comments on the 
Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration filk!




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Fri May 25 20:01:24 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:01:24 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <9ek08c+bje5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901c0e555$79ba3080$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19489

>Oh, Tolkien does do that too, I think.  Gandalf's White opposing
number is playing his own game (shows up again at the end, too),
>and so, after all, is Gollum.

Must disagree on that one, I'm afraid.  Saruman *thinks* he's playing his
own game, but Tolkein says when they all arrive at Isengard  that it is
merely a pale shadow and copy (oh, God, another platonist) of Barad-dur, and
when Frodo comments that the wreck of the shire (Saruman and Grima's work)
is just as bad as Mordor Gandalf tells him that it "is" mordor - ie, evil
characters are working for Sauron whether they think they are or not.  And
Tolkein explained that Gollum would be damned even though his last act was
beneficial.

By contrast, Lockhart is an evil menace and Snape, for example, is just as
much of a total git considered as a teacher (and people will remember the
truly ghastly experiences they had in his class for just as long) whether or
not they're  working for or against Voldemort or even whether they've ever
*heard* of Voldemort.

Susan






From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Fri May 25 20:01:25 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:01:25 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <9elkkm+epm3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c0e555$7a58e180$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19490


>I don't think Lockhart is evil in that sense of the word.

>I just think he is really self-centered to the point where he 
>believes his right to fame, fortune, glory and a lifestyle to which 
>anyone would like to become accustomed  supercedes anyone else's 
>rights.

and you would define evil as.....?

Susan



From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Fri May 25 20:01:26 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:01:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him
In-Reply-To: <9em5b5+3jn4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c0e555$7adf2880$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19491

>gild a roy (wonder if roy
>has any secret meanings such as lily?

"Roy" means king, in the same sort of Norman/mediaeval french which also
includes Malfoy (bad faith) and  Fleur Delacour ("flower of the court").
Gil-de-roy must  means something or other of the king (general backscratcher
in chief, probably)

Susan




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 20:05:55 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him
In-Reply-To: <9em5b5+3jn4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010525200555.6445.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19492


--- Doreen Rich <nera at rconnect.com> wrote:
> Even his name suggests that women would be drawn to
> him: lock hart. 
> Well, there is also the gilderoy part ... gild a roy
> (wonder if roy 
> has any secret meanings such as lily? 
> 
Actually, the "roy" part would be Old French for
"king".  I like the gilding the lily idea, though.

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From catlady at wicca.net  Fri May 25 20:35:21 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:35:21 -0700
Subject: English language -  Lockhart - Giant Babies - Multiple Curse - Me
Message-ID: <3B0EC209.889C9F1D@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19493

"taivimbra"  wrote:
> This is my first post and I'm Spanish, so I hope you'll be able to
> understand  it - though I read the English version of GoF, I haven't
> written anything in English for a long time... Excuse my faults...

I'm proud to be the first to reply that the English in your post is
PERFECT, altho' not very colloquial. Many of us whose only language is
English don't write it as well as you did. Btw, one person on this list
from Argentina said her mother is from Galicia in Spain; it would be
quite a co-incidence if you were from there too.

Indigo wrote:
> And yes, I dislike him too because he assumed Harry wanted
> to cash in on his fame because he, Gilderoy, had conjured fame
> out of dishonesty so he could cash in.

I kind of think maybe that Lockhart realized that Potter didn't want to
cash in on Potter's fame, but pretended to think so as a device for
*Lockhart* to cash in on Potter's fame ...  Just one example: Lockhart
insisting that Colin photo him and Harry together, when Harry would have
preferred not to be photographed at all: that way Lockhart was
photographed by Colin and otherwise he would not have been.

Doreen wrote:
> gild a roy (wonder if roy has any secret meanings such as lily?
Someone posted last year that Gilderoy was the name of a Scots
highwayman who was famous for being vain of his good looks. Btw, if his
name meant 'gild the lily', that would imply that there WAS a lily to
gild -- and I think we only know of one Lily....

Barbara Purdom wrote:
> Speaking of the logistics of human/giant reproduction,
> giant/male human, in order to avoid a human woman
>  having to give birth to a half-giant baby (which would
> probably kill her, even with a C-section)?

Maybe wizarding folk cope with oversize babies by casting a Shrinking
Spell on them. Maybe the Shrinking Spell makes C-sections unnecessary.
Or maybe a magical C-section causes a neat, tidy zipper to appear on the
belly, someone unzips to remove the baby (who has had its umbilicus
magically cut?), zips it up again, and it vanishes without a scar.
Witches like Narcissa would insist on delivering their babies that way
regardless whether there was medical necessity.

Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> EVERYBODY curses Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle at the
> end of the book. What will Lucius do about that, I wonder?

Tell Draco he deserved it for speaking openly in praise of the Dark
Lord, and curse his tongue into a perpetually burning coal in his mouth
for a while, to remind him to learn to hold his tongue until The Day
comes.

Amy Z wrote:
> Why wait for JKR?  Write the thing yourself and post it to ff pronto!

I might find a way to squeeze it into my snape/draco in progress,
perhaps by moving the setting to Hogwarts...
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Fri May 25 22:28:28 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:28:28 -0000
Subject: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived - Where Dumbledore Studied
In-Reply-To: <9em3s7+e5in@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9emmac+eklf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19494

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> And then, in 
> one of the more satisfying moments in any book I've ever read, 
> EVERYBODY curses Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle at the end of the book. 
> What will Lucius do about that, I wonder? Will Narcissa have to 
board 
> the train to find her little darling and discover him knocked out 
> cold on the floor? Will she change her mind about Durmstrang at 
that 
> point? Will the Weasleys find themselves sued by Lucius for 
> everything they have?
> 
> Steve
> in musing mode

My view of Draco is that he will do all he can to conceal from his 
father what happened - he is too proud to admit that *famous* Harry 
Potter, teachers' favourite mudblood Hermione, and the penniless 
Weasleys could get the better of him.  Of course, if the Malfoys find 
them before they have recovered (I imagine them sending a servant to 
pick him up though - thus avoiding unpleasant contact with muggles) 
they may extract the truth and take action.

If so it would be Dark, rather than legal, action (remember that some 
HP4GU members are lawyers before asking the obvious question)

See you in court

David




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Fri May 25 22:33:27 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (Jennifer)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:33:27 -0000
Subject: West Ham
Message-ID: <9emmjn+vgns@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19495


Hi everyone,

 Doing sort of a sketch on Dean Thomas, I'm searching facts about the 
West ham soccer Team that he is a devoted fan of. It might be OT, in 
wich case I apologise to the Moderators, but if whoever choses to 
answer puts in small notes about Dean (or other HP-related matters) 
here and there, it might pass :)

So,
Is it a real team?
Where are they located? ("west ham" really doesn't tell me anything)
How long have they played?
Where are their fans (for the most part) located? (might give some 
eventually indications to where Dean lives)
Is there any homepage of theirs?

 Beforehandthanks,

/Jennifer




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Fri May 25 22:36:33 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:36:33 -0000
Subject: Hagrid red flag
Message-ID: <9emmph+99bd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19496

The recent posts about Hagrid's social life and eating habits before 
COS reminded me of one thing that has been bugging me.  In PS/SS, he 
is introduced (in a chapter title, no less) as the Keeper of the 
Keys.  What does this mean?  Is it, for example, his job to keep the 
anti-apparition barrier in good nick?  Or are there some important 
doors we haven't seen yet at Hogwarts?

any thoughts?

On red flags generally, quite a few of the things that later turned 
out to be significant (parseltoungue, Sirius, the protective role of 
the Dursleys) are right near the beginning of the series.  Any others?

David




From linman6868 at aol.com  Fri May 25 22:44:14 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:44:14 -0000
Subject: JRRT, JKR, UKLG, and the complexity of evil
In-Reply-To: <9em0bp+1030n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9emn7u+glsn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19497

Amy Z wrote, and quotes LeGuin:

>    In many fantasy tales of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries 
the 
> tension between good and evil, light and dark, is drawn absolutely 
> clearly, as a battle, the good guys on one side and the bad guys on 
> the other, cops and robbers, Christians and heathens, heroes and 
> villains.  In such fantasies I believe the author has tried to 
force 
> reason to lead him where reason cannot go, and has abandoned the 
> faithful and frightening guide he should have followed, the 
shadow.  
> These are false fantasies, rationalized fantasies.  They are not 
the 
> real thing <snip>

I hope she's not including George MacDonald among those nineteenth-
century authors.  His fairy-tales are far from simplistic morality 
masks.  The main characters in them are complex, or if simple, still 
wonderfully real.  The evil characters have the same range of evils 
from Fudge to Lockhart to Voldemort.  There are even stories in 
which, as Pogo says, "We have met the enemy and it is us."  Needless 
to say, MacDonald drove his friend John Ruskin up the wall.  I think 
I read a quote by W.H. Auden saying that MacDonald's books were the 
only books he'd read that emanated goodness without being cloying, 
with which I fully agree.  JKR isn't like MacDonald, but she has her 
own brand of impish idealism to offer, and that is what I like about 
her writing in general...

Okay, finished my MacDonald spiel, now for the on-topic stuff.

LeGuin on Tolkien, followed by Amy:

> But all this is a judgment by 
> daylight ethics, by conventional standards of virtue and vice.  
When 
> you look at the story as a psychic journey, you see something quite 
> different, and very strange.  You see then a group of bright 
figures, 
> each one with its black shadow.  

>  Voldemort, in multiple ways that have been said many times here, 
is 
> Harry's.  They share a history; they are similar enough to 
illustrate 
> JKR's theme that we are shaped by our choices, not only by 
parentage, 
> inborn attributes, and status.  If Voldemort is too bad to be quite 
a 
> full-fledged character (which I do think he is) and Harry is too 
good 
> to be one (which I don't think, but just for the sake of argument--
), 
> this simplicity is redeemed by their being paired; they are, in a 
> sense, two sides of one person, just like Frodo and Gollum.  I tend 
to 
> read the books novelistically rather than mythologically--looking 
for 
> complete, rounded characters rather than archetypes--but I think 
you 
> can do both.

I really like this thought.  However, concerning Voldemort I think 
it's not so much that he's a cardboard Evil Overlord; I think it's 
more that we as ordinary people just don't understand the taste, so 
to speak, of rational and cold-blooded evil.  I for one understand 
the thirst for murder pretty well; I can get into Sirius's mind all 
right, and especially Harry's when he blows up his aunt.  But well, 
what do you say about people who *think out* their hatreds?  (It's 
like what Eddie Izzard says about Hitler:  "What did he do, did he 
just say while he was painting, 'I can't...get...this stupid tree 
right...I will kill everyone in the world!!")

But the thing about the shadows kind of anchors Voldemort to the 
ground a little.  All the similarities between Harry and Voldemort 
mentioned in CoS are, I think along those lines, JKR's way of 
stitching Harry's shadow to his feet a la Peter Pan.

Lisa I.
thanking those who praised her Les Mis filk and adding her praise to 
Caius's latest!





From linman6868 at aol.com  Fri May 25 22:44:31 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:44:31 -0000
Subject: JRRT, JKR, UKLG, and the complexity of evil
In-Reply-To: <9em0bp+1030n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9emn8f+3rci@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19498

Amy Z wrote, and quotes LeGuin:

>    In many fantasy tales of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries 
the 
> tension between good and evil, light and dark, is drawn absolutely 
> clearly, as a battle, the good guys on one side and the bad guys on 
> the other, cops and robbers, Christians and heathens, heroes and 
> villains.  In such fantasies I believe the author has tried to 
force 
> reason to lead him where reason cannot go, and has abandoned the 
> faithful and frightening guide he should have followed, the 
shadow.  
> These are false fantasies, rationalized fantasies.  They are not 
the 
> real thing <snip>

I hope she's not including George MacDonald among those nineteenth-
century authors.  His fairy-tales are far from simplistic morality 
masks.  The main characters in them are complex, or if simple, still 
wonderfully real.  The evil characters have the same range of evils 
from Fudge to Lockhart to Voldemort.  There are even stories in 
which, as Pogo says, "We have met the enemy and it is us."  Needless 
to say, MacDonald drove his friend John Ruskin up the wall.  I think 
I read a quote by W.H. Auden saying that MacDonald's books were the 
only books he'd read that emanated goodness without being cloying, 
with which I fully agree.  JKR isn't like MacDonald, but she has her 
own brand of impish idealism to offer, and that is what I like about 
her writing in general...

Okay, finished my MacDonald spiel, now for the on-topic stuff.

LeGuin on Tolkien, followed by Amy:

> But all this is a judgment by 
> daylight ethics, by conventional standards of virtue and vice.  
When 
> you look at the story as a psychic journey, you see something quite 
> different, and very strange.  You see then a group of bright 
figures, 
> each one with its black shadow.  

>  Voldemort, in multiple ways that have been said many times here, 
is 
> Harry's.  They share a history; they are similar enough to 
illustrate 
> JKR's theme that we are shaped by our choices, not only by 
parentage, 
> inborn attributes, and status.  If Voldemort is too bad to be quite 
a 
> full-fledged character (which I do think he is) and Harry is too 
good 
> to be one (which I don't think, but just for the sake of argument--
), 
> this simplicity is redeemed by their being paired; they are, in a 
> sense, two sides of one person, just like Frodo and Gollum.  I tend 
to 
> read the books novelistically rather than mythologically--looking 
for 
> complete, rounded characters rather than archetypes--but I think 
you 
> can do both.

I really like this thought.  However, concerning Voldemort I think 
it's not so much that he's a cardboard Evil Overlord; I think it's 
more that we as ordinary people just don't understand the taste, so 
to speak, of rational and cold-blooded evil.  I for one understand 
the thirst for murder pretty well; I can get into Sirius's mind all 
right, and especially Harry's when he blows up his aunt.  But well, 
what do you say about people who *think out* their hatreds?  (It's 
like what Eddie Izzard says about Hitler:  "What did he do, did he 
just say while he was painting, 'I can't...get...this stupid tree 
right...I will kill everyone in the world!!")

But the thing about the shadows kind of anchors Voldemort to the 
ground a little.  All the similarities between Harry and Voldemort 
mentioned in CoS are, I think along those lines, JKR's way of 
stitching Harry's shadow to his feet a la Peter Pan.

Lisa I.
thanking those who praised her Les Mis filk and adding her praise to 
Caius's latest!





From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri May 25 23:13:02 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:13:02 -0000
Subject: An Idea about Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <1e.16461180.283ffa13@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9emotu+a841@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19499

I'm really sorry about that, I accidentally sent the msg before I was 
finished typing, you had to read the 2nd post I made in order to get 
the whole thing.   To paraphase myself, Dumbledore goes on to say "I 
don't need a cloak to become invisible."  So I would infere that 
Dumbeldore can make himself invisible -- he wouldn't necessarily need 
to be an animagi to disquise himself.
Stephanie 


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/25/2001 1:51:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> sdrk1 at y... writes:
> 
> << I think that you're right, Dumbledore is a bee.  People tend to 
go 
>  with thier names.  But, there's another possibility that has 
bothered 
>  me for a while.  In PS/SS, at the end of the Mirror of Erised (Ch. 
>  12) Harry realizes that Dumbledore is in the room, they talk for a 
>  minute about what Harry sees in the mirror and then Dumbledore 
>  says, "And it showed your friend Ron as Head Boy." >>
> 
> What is the other possibility that you inferred from this scene?
> 
> Jami




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Fri May 25 23:27:29 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:27:29 -0000
Subject: West Ham
In-Reply-To: <9emmjn+vgns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9empp1+tpsa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19500

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer" <jennifer.k at l...> wrote:
> So,
> Is it a real team?

yes.

> Where are they located? ("west ham" really doesn't tell me 
anything)

in London.

> How long have they played?

don't know

> Where are their fans (for the most part) located? (might give 
some 
> eventually indications to where Dean lives)

Probably mostly London...although Manchester United have 
loads of fans in Ireland, so I suppose it's possible West Ham 
might have fans outside London.

> Is there any homepage of theirs?

http://www.whufc.com

Good luck.  I would guess that Dean is from London. And wasn't 
it list consensus that Dean comes from a Muggle background, 
some evidence for it being his support of West Ham?

Ivis




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Fri May 25 23:32:29 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:32:29 -0000
Subject: Spanish learning of English, rita skeeter + mathilda
In-Reply-To: <002701c0e50d$f3fdb580$3b74523e@rafa>
Message-ID: <9emq2d+hq7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19501

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "taivimbra" <taivimbra at i...> wrote:
> Hi!
> This is my first post and I'm Spanish, so I hope you'll be able to 
understand it - though I read the English version of GoF, I haven't 
written anything in English for a long time... Excuse my faults...

Your English is virtually faultless - few English people would dare 
to use 'ingenuous' and get it right

> I want to say something about Rita Skeeter, cause I think that she 
fits perfectly in the plot for some reasons, I think she was meant to 
be from the beginning, and not invented after the hype...
> 
> <many good things about Rita Skeeter snipped>

I like Rita the way a number of people have said they like Lockhart - 
hilarious to read, not so good to meet in the flesh.  She is also a 
very useful representative (along with Ron and Fudge) of 'ordinary 
wizarding prejudice', a theme that first appeared in force in COS and 
I was disappointed seemed to mostly have disappeared in POA but came 
back nicely in GOF.  She is better than Lockhart because there is 
endless scope for seeing how she will twist things no matter how 
people speak to her.

Also we have an election campaign in Britain right now - when I hear 
politicians on the radio I think "Where is Rita Skeeter when we need 
her?" AAAAAARGH dive for cover from moderator's nil politico curse...
> 
> And my 2nd.thounght of today:
> Have you read Roald Dahl's "Mathilda"??  or seen the movie? Is 
Mathilda's family the Dursley family in a parallel universe?
> 
Yes both - there is a lot of similarity

> hoping not to have forgotten all my English
> 
> Tai
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Fri May 25 23:33:23 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:33:23 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him
In-Reply-To: <000b01c0e555$7adf2880$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9emq43+4e6v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19502

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> >gild a roy (wonder if roy
> >has any secret meanings such as lily?
> 
> "Roy" means king, in the same sort of Norman/mediaeval french which 
also
> includes Malfoy (bad faith) and  Fleur Delacour ("flower of the 
court").
> Gil-de-roy must  means something or other of the king (general 
backscratcher
> in chief, probably)
> 
> Susan

There's a Scottish folk song called "Gilderoy". This Gilderoy is 
nothing like Lockhart.

http://www.contemplator.com/scotland/gilderoy.html

Demelza




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Fri May 25 23:42:22 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:42:22 -0000
Subject: Hagrid red flag
In-Reply-To: <9emmph+99bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9emqku+6gs7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19503

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> The recent posts about Hagrid's social life and eating habits before 
> COS reminded me of one thing that has been bugging me.  In PS/SS, he 
> is introduced (in a chapter title, no less) as the Keeper of the 
> Keys.  What does this mean?  Is it, for example, his job to keep the 
> anti-apparition barrier in good nick?  Or are there some important 
> doors we haven't seen yet at Hogwarts?
> 
> any thoughts?
> 
> On red flags generally, quite a few of the things that later turned 
> out to be significant (parseltoungue, Sirius, the protective role of 
> the Dursleys) are right near the beginning of the series.  Any 
others?
> 
> David

Milz had a discussion going on red "flags and red herrings" 
starting here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/18972

I'd like to add one thing to the Hagrid red flag. SS/PS revealed that 
Hagrid does possess some kind of magical talent. Are Hagrid's rights 
as a magical being infringed since he is denied the right to carry a 
wand at all times (according to the footnote in FBWFT)? Considering 
the magical communities prejudice against the Giants, it does not seem 
unreasonable that Hagrid, who was cleared of Myrtle's death in CoS, 
has not had his wand re-instated.

Demelza




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat May 26 00:29:54 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:29:54 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid, Maxime and giant babies
In-Reply-To: <20010525132234.33272.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINKELIDJAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010525171844.02acaea0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19504

At 06:22 AM 5/25/01 -0700, Barbara Purdom wrote:
>Speaking of the logistics of human/giant reproduction,
>wouldn't all such combinations have to be female
>giant/male human, in order to avoid a human woman
>having to give birth to a half-giant baby (which would
>probably kill her, even with a C-section)?

Seems to me that the most serious problem with male
giant/female human offspring occurs nine months earlier,
but perhaps the less said about it the better... ;)



                         -- Dave




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 00:37:30 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:37:30 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: About Harry
References: <9elgi7+oiaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE37u5Oc6UwFsdZfHbW00002fc3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19505

Ah. You two are right about Harry. I overlooked those situations you mentioned when he went through rough spots, but I just don't generally go for the acclaimed hero in any story. It's just because it's basically a given that they'll come out on top. As examples to illustrate this, I liked Brock from Pokemon because he is overlooked, and I liked Hector from The Iliad because he, too, is overlooked and he's the under-dog, the tragic hero. Sorry for being so emotional. It's just not my nature to like the characters that are straight-forward and bound to win...Again, my humblest apologies for offending you.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 00:49:33 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:49:33 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Hagrid's eating habits
References: <9eljg3+olvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE22bi9fSxBmGCmCrQO0000306b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19506

Doreen:
(I was really glad to see his romantic involvement with Maxime, as 
the pink umbrella had me worried.)

Hehehe. Yeah, I was, too. It was cute, to me. Poor thing, though, when Maxime got mad at him for questioning her about her giant heritage. I felt so bad for him.

As for him being looked down on, I wonder if the other professors are under the impression he opened the Chamber of Secrets. I mean, I would think at least fair Professor McGonagall would give him a chance. I mean, he's just so lovable...

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kiary91 at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 02:06:38 2001
From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 02:06:38 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cats-Kneazles-Crookshanks-Arabella Figg
Message-ID: <F207qgStMVhEUsebmsp00005a55@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19507


Isn't there a Joan Aiken book about a little girl named Arabella and her pet 
raven, Mortimer? Or was it Arabel? It was something Ara-ish....


Cait

>From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cats-Kneazles-Crookshanks-Arabella Figg
>Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:03:16 -0000
>
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> > Arabella Figg. Who is she and when will we find out about her? I
> > recently finished reading "Jude the Obscure" (yes I was reading it
>in
> > Feb., but I put it down for a month, or two, or three :-) so...)
>and
> > while I don't think JKR necessarily took Arabella's name from it,
>it
> > IS the only other book I've ever read with a character named
> > Arabella. Any speculation? (If this is correct I don't think we
> > should hold out much hope for her character.)
> >
> > As far as Crookshanks goes there has been lots of theories as to
> > M(r)s. Figg being an animagus etc. But my best bet is that
> >
> > A) She's a Kneazle breeder, and that's why there are so many "cats"
> > around.
> > or B) The cats are there to detect anything unsavoury that might
>harm
> > Harry.
> >
> > I know, I know! Both these thoughts have been expressed before, but
> > It seemed like a nice thing to add to the  Arabella thread.
> >
> > Scott
>
>Again, this is slightly OT, but, it may have some relevance...
>Another Arabella I though of was Georgette Heyer's character in the
>book of the same name.  This character is very good - she is a
>vicar's daughter, and although she takes fashionable Regency London
>by storm, she is very tender-hearted - rescuing orphan chimney-sweep
>boys from their masters who beat them, adopting stray dogs etc. etc.
>Perhaps Arabella Figg is runing an unofficial home for stray
>cats/kneazles?  And perhaps she thinks it is her duty to keep an eye
>on poor orphan Harry??
>
>Catherine
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May 26 03:39:47 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 03:39:47 -0000
Subject: West Ham
In-Reply-To: <9empp1+tpsa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9en8i3+5dkj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19508

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., irbohlen at e... wrote:
> 
> Good luck.  I would guess that Dean is from London. And wasn't 
> it list consensus that Dean comes from a Muggle background, 
> some evidence for it being his support of West Ham?

In CoS, when they are choosing next year's electives, it says: "Dean 
Thomas, who, like Harry, had grown up with Muggles, ended up closing 
his eyes and jabbing his wand at the list, then picking the subjects 
it landed on." 




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat May 26 03:40:11 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 03:40:11 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore Idea and Gryffindors
In-Reply-To: <9elccf+i8qv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9en8ir+3ivl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19509

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mark_weasley at h... wrote:
> Hi.  This started when I was thinking about which Houses various 
> Hogwarts alumni have been sorted into.  James, Sirius, Lupin, 
> Wormtail, Lily, McGonagall, Hagrid and (supposedly) Dumbledore were 
> all Gryffindors.  

The theory makes perfect sense to me, but IIRC, we don't know 
positively from canon what house(s) James, Sirius, Remus, Peter and 
Lily were in. I admit I'd be surprised to find out they were all 
Slytherins, but, you just never know what JKR has up her sleeve.

Marianne




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May 26 03:46:06 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 03:46:06 -0000
Subject: JRRT, JKR, UKLG, and the complexity of evil
In-Reply-To: <9emn8f+3rci@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9en8tu+fd8q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19510

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote:

> However, concerning Voldemort I think  it's not so much that he's a
> cardboard Evil Overlord; I think it's more that we as ordinary
> people just don't understand the taste, so to speak, of rational
> and cold-blooded evil.

I don't think Voldemort is rational. He wants to be immortal himself 
and he wants to be feared, to kill, to destroy -- someone who wants 
to be immortal and is rational should plan for the long term: who 
will fear him and who will follow him after he has killed everyone?





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May 26 03:48:40 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 03:48:40 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore Idea and Gryffindors
In-Reply-To: <9en8ir+3ivl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9en92o+rvlv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19511

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:

> The theory makes perfect sense to me, but IIRC, we don't know 
> positively from canon what house(s) James, Sirius, Remus, Peter and 
> Lily were in. I admit I'd be surprised to find out they were all 
> Slytherins, but, you just never know what JKR has up her sleeve.

In some chat, didn't JKR answer "What house was Lily in?" with 
"Gryffindor of course" and in some other chat, didn't she answer 
"Chaser" when asked what position James played on the Gryffindor 
Quidditch team (as opposed to e.g. "Why are you sure he was in 
Gryffindor?"). 
 




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat May 26 04:00:30 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 04:00:30 -0000
Subject: JRRT, JKR, UKLG, and the complexity of evil
In-Reply-To: <9emn7u+glsn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9en9ou+j2fe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19512

--- In HPforGrownups at y...> Amy Z wrote, and quotes LeGuin:
> 
> >    In many fantasy tales of the nineteenth and twentieth 
centuries 
> the 
> > tension between good and evil, light and dark, is drawn 
absolutely 
> > clearly, as a battle, the good guys on one side and the bad guys 
on 
> > the other, cops and robbers, Christians and heathens, heroes and 
> > villains.  In such fantasies I believe the author has tried to 
> force 
> > reason to lead him where reason cannot go, and has abandoned the 
> > faithful and frightening guide he should have followed, the 
> shadow.  
> > These are false fantasies, rationalized fantasies.  They are not 
> the 
> > real thing <snip>

Another example of an earlier 20th-Century work which confounds the 
above description is GK Chesterton's The Man Who Was Thursday.  And I 
can't really describe how the book so confounds without giving the 
multiple surprises and the astonishing resolution of the story. The 
basic plot of the novel has the protagonist - a undercover police 
officer from Scotland Yard - infilitrating the sinister Council of 
Days, a group of evil anarchists (at a time when the word "anarchist" 
provoked the same visceral reaction that "terrorist" elicits from us) 
led by the monstrous Sunday (our protagonist's code name 
is "Thursday," hence the title). 

The climatic surprise of the book is finding out who Sunday really is.

This 1904 novel is available on line

http://www.ccel.org/c/chesterton/thursday/thursday.html

  - CMC










From catlady at wicca.net  Sat May 26 04:39:08 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:39:08 -0700
Subject: Lexicon Time Line Dates?
Message-ID: <3B0F336C.F8DC226@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19513

'Lexicon' is in my title because I checked the Lexicon to confirm my
time line to make sure that my questions are not based on me having made
arithmetic errors.

I'll put the short question first. CoS called one of the Chasers
(Angelina, I think) a fourth-year girl. So she is the same year as Fred
and George. What evidence was found for the ages of the other two
Chasers? If both Beaters and all three Chasers are the same year, then
in Book 6, Harry and the replacement Keeper (hopefully Ron, for his
ego's sake) will be the ONLY returning players -- that doesn't augur
well for the team's victory chances.

Now the longer question:
I haven't been able to sort out WHEN Gryffindor won the Quidditch Cup
versus the House Cup. Can anyone explain it to me?

Gryffindor won the House Cup in SS (june 1992) at the last minute, in
CoS (june 1993), and in PoA (june 1994).
       Slytherin had won House Cup for six years running before that.
(June 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991) because it says in SS: "[The
Great Hall] was decked out in the Slytherin colors of green and silver
to celebrate Slytherin's winning the house cup for the seventh year in a
row." but then their seventh was taken away so it was only six in a row.

     Slytherin didn't win the House Cup in june 1985 because that would
have been seven years in a row, therefore Gryffindor did, that was
Charlie's senior year.

Gryffindor won the Quidditch Cup when Charlie was Seeker (june 1985) and
didn't win it again until PoA (june 1994)
     PoA: "Gryffindor hadn't won the Quidditch Cup since the legendary
Charlie Weasley (Ron's second oldest brother) had been seeker"
     SS: "I tell you, we're going to win that Quidditch cup for sure
this year,"
said Fred. "We haven't won since Charlie left, but this year's team is
going to be brilliant. You must be good, Harry, Wood was almost skipping

when he told us."

If Slytherin won the Quidditch Cup in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990,
1991, 1992, 1993, that would be EIGHT in a row. So WHY did Wood say in
PoA: "Gryffindor hasn't won for seven years now." SEVEN???? It doesn't
make sense that Gryff would have won the Quidditch Cup but not the House
Cup the year AFTER Charlie left!

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 04:58:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 04:58:30 -0000
Subject: Lexicon Time Line Dates?
In-Reply-To: <3B0F336C.F8DC226@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9end5m+v3oo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19514

Catlady wrote:
 
> Gryffindor won the House Cup in SS (june 1992) at the last minute, 
in
> CoS (june 1993), and in PoA (june 1994).
>        Slytherin had won House Cup for six years running before 
that.
> (June 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991) because it says in SS: 
"[The
> Great Hall] was decked out in the Slytherin colors of green and 
silver
> to celebrate Slytherin's winning the house cup for the seventh year 
in a
> row." but then their seventh was taken away so it was only six in a 
row.
> 
>      Slytherin didn't win the House Cup in june 1985 because that 
would
> have been seven years in a row, therefore Gryffindor did, that was
> Charlie's senior year.

Okay, I follow the Quidditch Cup problem, but not the House Cup.  How 
do you know Gryffindor won the House Cup in 1985 (why not Ravenclaw or 
Hufflepuff)?  We know, IIRC (I'm trusting the Lexicon here), that 
Gryffindor won the Quidditch Cup, but that doesn't tell us who won the 
House Cup.

Winning the QC =can= help you mightily to win the HC, but won't 
necessarily do so.  From PoA, we know that the QC goes to the team 
that wins the most points over the course of its 3 games.  If the team 
that wins the QC automatically gets some big number of points towards 
the House Cup, then the QC is a huge advantage.  But if Quidditch 
counts towards House points simply on a point-for-point basis, then 
even the QC-winning team can get a mere 10-point edge in the House Cup 
competition, as Gryffindor would have done in PoA.  In that case, you 
can easily lose the House Cup in a year you won the Quidditch Cup.

Amy Z 

-------------------------------------------------------
    The pretty werewolf girl clapped her hands. "Fetch 
 pipes, fetch drums, fetch musical instruments made 
 from the shoulder blades of a pig and the stomach-
 lining of a water-vole, we're going to get down to
 some really bad sounds!"
    The other werewolves scurried to do her bidding.
             --Cassandra Claire, Draco Sinister ch. 14
-------------------------------------------------------




From mark_weasley at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 05:29:59 2001
From: mark_weasley at hotmail.com (Mark Navarrete)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:29:59 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lexicon Time Line Dates?
Message-ID: <F2023JkUwWpSWerOc0N0000ffa5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19515

>From: Catlady <catlady at wicca.net>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HP4G <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lexicon Time Line Dates?
>Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:39:08 -0700
>
>Now the longer question:
>I haven't been able to sort out WHEN Gryffindor won the Quidditch Cup
>versus the House Cup. Can anyone explain it to me?

*snippage*

I agree with that Slytherin won the House Cups 6 times consecutively from 
June 1986 to 1991.

>      Slytherin didn't win the House Cup in june 1985 because that would
>have been seven years in a row, therefore Gryffindor did, that was
>Charlie's senior year.

I don't see it that way.  Just because Slytherin didn't win the House Cup 
that yeat doesn't mean that Gryffindor was the one that beat them.

>Gryffindor won the Quidditch Cup when Charlie was Seeker (june 1985) and
>didn't win it again until PoA (june 1994)

No.  Wood (as you quote below) said that, at the time of Book 3 (School-year 
1993-94), Gryffindor hadn't won the Quidditch Cup in 7 years.  Add that 
information to the following quotes:

>      PoA: "Gryffindor hadn't won the Quidditch Cup since the legendary
>Charlie Weasley (Ron's second oldest brother) had been seeker"
>      SS: "I tell you, we're going to win that Quidditch cup for sure
>this year," said Fred. "We haven't won since Charlie left..."

... And you can conclude that the last time Gryffindow won the Quidditch Cup 
was in June 1986, right before Charlie graduated.  This was at the same time 
Slytherin won its first House Cup in its 6-year winning streak.  There is no 
contradiction there.  Winning the Quidditch Cup has an effect on House Cup 
points but it doesn't ensure it.  After all, Gryffindor didn't win the 
Quidditch Cup in Book 1 and 2, but they still won the House Cups those 
years.

>If Slytherin won the Quidditch Cup in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990,
>1991, 1992, 1993, that would be EIGHT in a row. So WHY did Wood say in
>PoA: "Gryffindor hasn't won for seven years now." SEVEN???? It doesn't
>make sense that Gryff would have won the Quidditch Cup but not the House
>Cup the year AFTER Charlie left!
>

--Mark
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat May 26 07:39:13 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 07:39:13 -0000
Subject: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived - Where Dumbledore Studied
In-Reply-To: <9emmac+eklf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9enmj1+f6o7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19516

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> > And then, in 
> > one of the more satisfying moments in any book I've ever read, 
> > EVERYBODY curses Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle at the end of the 
book. 
> > What will Lucius do about that, I wonder? Will Narcissa have to 
> board 
> > the train to find her little darling and discover him knocked out 
> > cold on the floor? Will she change her mind about Durmstrang at 
> that 
> > point? Will the Weasleys find themselves sued by Lucius for 
> > everything they have?
> > 
> > Steve
> > in musing mode
> 
> My view of Draco is that he will do all he can to conceal from his 
> father what happened - he is too proud to admit that *famous* Harry 
> Potter, teachers' favourite mudblood Hermione, and the penniless 
> Weasleys could get the better of him.  Of course, if the Malfoys 
find 
> them before they have recovered (I imagine them sending a servant 
to 
> pick him up though - thus avoiding unpleasant contact with muggles) 
> they may extract the truth and take action.
> 
> If so it would be Dark, rather than legal, action (remember that 
some 
> HP4GU members are lawyers before asking the obvious question)
> 
> See you in court
> 
> David

This has prompted me to post on various musings I have about law in 
the books.  Firstly, we know there are courts and tribunals.  Why 
aren't there lawyers or at least people who can represent others.  
For instance - Hagrid really needed help when arguing Buckbeak's 
case.  Instead he had to rely on the help of three school children.  
There are obviously law books - or at least books full of cases, 
which the trio use to research the way dangerous animals have been 
treated.  Who compiles them?  Who keeps records?  What other kind of 
courts are there?  Why has the wizarding world dispensed with 
lawyers? (non rude answers to this question please!)

Regarding justice in general.  There seems to me to be a very simple 
solution to solving any disputes, allegations of criminal behaviour 
etc.  VERITASERUM.  Why isn't this used?  This could have saved 
Sirius 12 years in Azkaban.  If I had been Sirius, I would have asked 
about this.  There could be different rules about using it on 
witnesses, but imagine the good it could do -if it had been used on 
Draco as a witness in Buckbeak's case, then surely the outcome would 
have been different.  This would then prevent people such as Lucius 
Malfoy from being able to manipulate tribunals into doing what he 
wants.

We've talked before about the martial law imposed during VW1, and the 
suspension of habeus corpus etc., which is why Sirius didn't get a 
trial.  In which case, where and how did Dumbledore testify that 
Sirius was the Potters' secret keeper?  

BTW:  Possible career moves for Hermione were discussed recently.  
Can anyone else see her as a judge?  Scrupulously fair, open-minded, 
non-prejudicial, very intelligent...

Catherine






From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sat May 26 10:12:32 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:12:32 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived - Where Dumbledore Studied
In-Reply-To: <9enmj1+f6o7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c0e5cc$60ce5d40$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19517

Catherine asked about law in the books.  I have just contributed an essay
called "Harry Potter and the Rule of Law; the Central Weaknesses of Legal
Concepts in the Wizard world" to a book which is a collection of essays
about various aspects of the canon, being compiled by a US academic, Dr
Giselle Anatol. and which, it is hoped, will be published by Greenwood Press
later in the year.  Catherine puts her finger on a number of issues I deal
with in the essay.  A lot of conclusions can be drawn about  the
spinelessness shading through to complete corruption of the MoM by the way
legal issues are tackled (or not) in the canon, and how wizard law is
contrasted with Muggle.  For example, the state of emergency surrounding
Voldemort's ascendancy is offered as the reason why Sirius didn't get a
trial, but Voldemort had fallen by the time of the apparent murder of
Pettigrew, and there is no apparent security risk in allowing Sirius a
trial.  In fact,you'd have thought that *if* all the evidence stacked up as
firmly as Fudge alleges in the pub, a nice splashy show trial would be just
the job for the Ministry.

I personally find it suspicious that, combined with the absence of trial,
Fudge is first on the scene and all the muggle witnesses have their memories
modified.

Anyway, if you compare the murder of Voldemort's father and grandparents,
the fact that WWII was going on at the time didn't stop the Muggle
authorities doing a proper investigation and exonerating Frank Bryce.

Susan




From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Sat May 26 09:25:57 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen Dei)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:25:57 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice
References: <20010524224655.48570.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000401c0e5d0$426d6e00$3c6e74d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 19518

Vicky wrote:
Speaking of Lily's sacrifice, now that Voldy's got some of Harry's blood, does this entitle him to the
same protection Lily afforded Harry?

and Partyperson: 

Okay, somebody posted that they were disappointed that the only reason that Harry survived and defeated Voldemort were because of Lily's sacrificial death. See, that's what I thought for awhile too. 
But then I started thinking about it more in depth--and I concluded that something other than her sacrifice defeated Voldemort. Because Voldemort killed so many people, don't you think that somewhere along 
the line, some mother must have tried to protect their child and died in the process? But no other child got a lightning shaped scar of their forehead and defeated him, right? So I'm thinking Harry must 
have something VERY special about him. Yes, her sacrifice is what saved him and repelled Voldemort. But what defeated him? 


I imagine everyone has their pet theories here, so I will add mine to the pot. 

For me it was no disappointment at all that it was Lily's sacrifice that saved Harry. I was deeply moved when I read that the first time (second, third and fourth times as well). It is tremendously beautiful...the depths of love that belong to a parent. The "moral" content of the books is very high in my opinion, but she often soars into the deepest truths that are the quiddity of human existence, and this is one of them. The love of the mother has always been seen as the most enduring form of love we can hope to find in another person...this side of heaven. Something that has perhaps been obscured by the current accent on women as career persons...perhaps. 

In my HO it seems that JKR goes to great lengths from book to book to stress that it was the sacrifice of the mother that made his Voldemort's curse bounce back and hit him: "My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself..." GoF. What makes Harry special is having been loved: "Love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign....to have been loved so deeply, then though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever." PhilS. It seems to me (no, I don't interpret the books solely as man's search for a father figure in the Freudian sense; perhaps tempted to do so in the Christian sense of God as Father, but not Freudian), that the books deal with what most books do: man's search for happiness...for meaning... and how the writer/reader sees happiness and meaning counts for much of how the book is written and read. Unless I can get my hands on the woman, I cannot give a 100% proof of it, but it seems to me that the "family" as the center of human happiness, our relationships with those we love...having people to love is a major theme of her books, along with the battle between good and evil. To emphasize the family to such an extent is rather counter-culture of her (at least if you live in the Netherlands it is, believe me) but she does do it. GoF is big on this... 

But the blood of Lily in Voldemort's veins... Now my pet theory is that that will be the key to his downfall. Yes, he can now touch Harry, but I don't see any reason to believe that it will give him a sort of protection from another person cursing him... The blood of Lily will somehow work against those Dark Magic transformations that he underwent... He is again mortal be reason of resuming a body.... But I shall have to wait to see if my theory is true.... 

Maria 

L.D.
Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave"
www.geocities.com/lumen_dei



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From manchisco at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 11:01:07 2001
From: manchisco at yahoo.com (Mags)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:01:07 -0000
Subject: Phoenixes and wand cores
Message-ID: <9eo2dj+beac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19519

I've tried to search the archives to see if this has already come up, 
but I couldn't look at most of the messages so sorry if someone's 
already thought of this!

I've just looked at PS and I've noticed that when Mr. Ollivander 
talks about different wands, he hardly ever seems to mention their 
cores.

'You have your mother's eyes.  It seems only yesterday she was in 
here herself, buying her first wand.  Ten and a quarter inches, 
swishy, made of willow.  Nice wand for charm work'

and...

'Your father, on the other hand, favoured a mahogany wand.  Eleven 
inches.  Pliable.  A little more power and excellent for 
transfiguration'

Phoenixes have got to be pretty rare birds, and if, like Fawkes, they 
only give one or two feathers for use as wand cores, just how many 
people DO have phoenix tail-feathers in their wands?  JKR hasn't told 
us what was in Lily and James' wands, so I'm prepared to bet they 
both had phoenix feathers too.  And could this be an explanation for 
the mysterious 'Order of the Phoenix'.

I'm sure I'm not the first to bring this up, but I just thought I'd 
contribute something!  Now, back to my lurking.

Mags




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat May 26 12:26:38 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:26:38 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him
In-Reply-To: <9em5b5+3jn4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eo7du+rtij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19520

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> > > Indigo wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Actually, Mrs. Weasley also thinks that Gilderoy is the cat's
> > > > pajamas.  That bugged me a lot that she and Hermione both 
fell 
> for
> > > > his pretty face without bothering to look closer and see that 
> > there
> > > > was no gold behind all that glitter.
> > > 
> > > Well, let's remember that both Mrs. Weasley and Hermione had
> > > Lockhart's books to go on, too.  Apparently the material in them
> > > was sound, i.e. the spells and other methods worked, even if
> > > Lockhart didn't obtain them the way he said he did.
> > > 
> > 
> > This is true:
> > 
> > But you think with an entire wizarding family, Mrs. Weasley 
> would've 
> > known better.
> > 
> > Same goes for Hermione who is probably the most well-read wizard 
> > under the age of 18 in the JKR-verse. 
> > 
> > My guess is there's a glamour charm on all Gilderoy's writing so 
> that 
> > people don't too closely question the stuff they read 
> > therein...otherwise, I think neither of these otherwise bright, 
> > clever women would've bought into it.
> > 
> > After all, Harry and Ron looked briefly through the Gilderoy 
books 
> > too and thought they were trash.
> > 
> > And so did a good many of the other students.
> > 
> > Gilderoy's first test: "What's my favourite colour?" and so on 
had 
> to 
> > have been a red flag to Hermione if she hadn't been all doe-eyed 
> > because of Lockhart's pretty face.
> > 
> > Indigo
> > [who thinks they both should've know better!]
> *************************************************
> Ah ... but Molly Weasley also believed all the garbage that Rita 
> Skeeter wrote about Hermione. Remember how badly she treated 
Hermione 
> after she read Rita's column?

This is true too and I was just as shocked to see that, given that 
Mrs. Weasley has known Hermione for four years now [or at least 
peripherally through Ron].  
> 
> I think there are a lot of otherwise intelligent women who are 
under 
> the spell of certain charismatic men, such as Gilderoy Lockhart. 
> These women sneak copies of trashy tabloids into their shopping 
carts 
> and settle down to their favorite soaps in between household chores 
> or college classes. (our commons room at college would be packed to 
> overflowing during The Young & the Restless daily!)
> 
> Even his name suggests that women would be drawn to him: lock hart. 
> Well, there is also the gilderoy part ... gild a roy (wonder if roy 
> has any secret meanings such as lily? 

Probably.  It strikes me that Gilderoy is a pun of some kind. 
Something like "All that is glitter is not gold," or something to 
that effect. I'm not etymologist enough to know why it bothers me, 
though.
> 
> Anyway, I don't think intelligence has anything to do with being 
> smitten by good looks and charm. When I think of Gilderoy Lockhart, 
> Fabio instantly comes to mind. I didn't like him either, but I 
think 
> he would make a great Lockhart. Too bad he is not British ... or 
> maybe that is a good thing.

Yes, but see, the problem I have with Lockhart is that most of his 
magic, viewed close up, doesn't really work.  

Hermione actually got to see him being a clueless git with 
his "Peskipixie" spell, and still didn't see past the good looks. 

And my choice to play Gilderoy is JM J Bullock, just as an aside.
> 
> Doreen, whose favorite soap was Dark Shadows
> Only 143 days til November 16




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat May 26 12:31:39 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:31:39 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <000a01c0e555$7a58e180$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9eo7nb+igts@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19521

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> 
> >I don't think Lockhart is evil in that sense of the word.
> 
> >I just think he is really self-centered to the point where he 
> >believes his right to fame, fortune, glory and a lifestyle to 
which 
> >anyone would like to become accustomed  supercedes anyone else's 
> >rights.
> 
> and you would define evil as.....?
> 
> Susan

Hmm. How to explain this more clearly without further befuddling what 
I'm trying to say?

Lockhart probably rationalizes to himself that memory charms don't 
really hurt anybody.  

I think he's cowardly and fraudulent more than truly evil.

I don't believe he would wipe out all the muggles if he had the 
chance.  

I don't believe he would even memory charm without a good reason.  He 
actually was trying to teach the DADA class, after all.  He was 
abyssmally bad at it, but if he was all that evil, I don't see him 
treating the students nearly as well.

He treated them like an audience.

He doesn't even consider it.  And if he were truly as evil as all 
that, he could easily have viewed Harry as 'competition' and moved to 
take the young one out of the limelight so Gilderoy could be shone 
upon all by himself at Hogwarts.

I consider him more a tragically flawed character  -- Vanity makes 
him do really stupid things.  But he doesn't do them out of malice.  
He just doesn't _get_ that the world doesn't revolve around him.

Indigo
[hoping that makes more sense]





From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 12:52:04 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 05:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lexicon Time Line Dates?
In-Reply-To: <9end5m+v3oo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010526125204.6504.qmail@web5202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19522


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
 
> In that case, you 
> can easily lose the House Cup in a year you won the
> Quidditch Cup.
> 

Case in point: Slytherin win the QC in both PS and CoS
but Gryffindor win the HC those same years. 

Also perhaps Gryffindor won the QC but not the HC in
1986. Do we know for sure Charlie graduated in 1985 or
are you just deducing that based on the last time
Gryffindor won the QC? If Gryffindor won the QC in
1986 but not the HC does this not solve the problem?

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 23 04:36:02 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:36:02 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Saying Voldemort; Snape and Stone
References: <9ef23k+9ica@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE71dkSmLAztxc1o8yf00001d53@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19523

I wonder about why Snape gave away his puzzle. Did he or didn't he? Snape may have wanted to use the stone. I'm hoping Snape's unwillingness to call Voldie by name isn't a sign of his turning away. I hope he isn't like Pettigrew, who stays with those who are likely to protect him.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 13:39:55 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth C)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:39:55 +1000
Subject: Lord *giggle* Voldemort & Florence
Message-ID: <F1925b6KZmcK8r6beUz0000ebac@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19524

Since reading CoS and discovering that 'Lord Voldemort' is really Tom 
Marvolo Riddle, has anyone else had a quiet snigger to themselves every time 
from then on they read the word 'Voldemort'?
It's such a combination of things - like his real name being so boring and 
so stupid at the same time, starting calling himself *Lord* anything at age 
17, changing his name at all (although, now that I think about it...'Lord 
Riddle' just doesn't sound as impressive does it?) - that I just can't take 
him seriously anymore.
I take him being a threat to Harry seriously, and I take the DE's *very* 
seriously, but I just can't take him as a person seriously. When I read the 
words 'Lord Voldemort' I now just think to myself 'yeah, right Tommy. You 
are, like, sooo pathetic' and smirk.

Also, who the hell is Florence? I've been reading the thread trying to 
figure it out, but I have no idea. Is she in canon? If so, could someone 
point me to the book & chapter? I'm lost here!

Lizzy
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat May 26 13:57:04 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:57:04 -0000
Subject: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived - Where Dumbledore Studied
In-Reply-To: <000201c0e5cc$60ce5d40$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9eocng+ia8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19525

The way the law is dealt with in the wizarding world is a very 
interesting issue.  It seems to me that the MoM often uses "guilty 
until proven innocent" tactics instead of the other way around.  

Sending Sirius off to Azkaban without a trial is definitely a panicked 
response to a dire situation.  I suppose it reminds me of McCarthyism 
here in the States when so many people were blacklisted simply because 
our government decided that *any* association (however distant) with 
certain other systems of governments was bad, bad, bad and had to be 
stopped.  As a result, many people panicked and many innocent people 
suffered needlessly.  Our government thought it was being "American", 
and was therefore, doing the right thing.  Fudge (who I am disliking 
more and more) believes that he is also doing the right thing when he 
makes hasty decisions.  He believed that he was saving time and saving 
the wizarding world by quickly putting people behind bars (as was 
Crouch Sr.).   

I also think the MoM is not the best government around.  Incompetence 
and corruption seem to be lurking under the surface.  Hiring people 
like Bertha Jorkins and Ludo Bagman are examples of this, as neither 
of them seemed to be good at their jobs.  Bagman in particular was 
certainly popular enough, but never got the job done - why was he so 
out of the loop when the Dark Mark went into the air in GoF?  And 
Arthur Weasley, who works so hard but never gets that promotion he 
deserves?  That definitely happens.

Even Fudge himself is more concerned with looking good than doing good 
sometimes.  Accepting such large donations from someone who was a 
known DE?  How superficial!  This is something that happens with 
politicians all the time (well, not the DE part).  JKR seems to be 
poking fun at governments in general here, even though Fudge's 
behavior at the end of GoF is not funny at all.  Politicians have 
always been accused of taking money from "shady" people.

Of course in the end, a little power goes a long way in the heads of 
those in charge (Mayor Giuliani being my favorite example, but I'll 
say no more).  Fudge is, as Dumbledore said, too concerned with his 
position to see things as they really are.  That is something that has 
done endless damage in the Muggle world.  I'm very interested to see 
what will happen to Fudge.

Even though in HP the Muggle laws seem to be a bit different than 
wizarding ones, I'm not sure that is so.  Frank Bryce may have been 
cleared, but it certainly didn't stop him from being avoided by his 
town ever after.  Hagrid will always be suspected of doing wrong, and 
it seems that Harry, while we know him to be innocent, is quick to be 
suspected by his peers of being hungry for the spotlight or an 
associate of Voldie's.  Proving one's innocence (and guilt) seems to 
be yet another theme of JKR's.

I've never been so rambly!  I'm ready to be torn apart now.

--jenny from ravenclaw********




From editor at texas.net  Sat May 26 14:00:52 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:00:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck!
References: <9eo7nb+igts@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B0FB714.A6207759@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19526

Indigo wrote:

> > and you would define evil as.....?
> >
> > Susan
>
> Lockhart probably rationalizes to himself that memory charms don't
> really hurt anybody.
>
> I think he's cowardly and fraudulent more than truly evil.

So in your definition, evil requires deliberate intent to be so? And
knowledge that you are? And acceptance of that fact? The ability to
rationalize one's actions to oneself does not make those actions
non-evil.

> I don't believe he would wipe out all the muggles if he had the
> chance.

And evil requires grand scope? Smaller acts cannot be evil?

> I don't believe he would even memory charm without a good reason.

Self-interest is apparently good enough reason--he attempted to cast a
memory charm on Harry and Ron twice. Didn't simply say he might, *did*
it.

>  He actually was trying to teach the DADA class, after all.

Well, on the first day, maybe....

>  He was abyssmally bad at it, but if he was all that evil, I don't see
> him treating the students nearly as well.

There is evil by intent. There is evil by omission. In Catholic
reconciliation you confess both--sins of commission and sins of
omission. Both are sins.

Lockhart mostly muddles along and seems harmless enough, if more
irritating than a rock in your shoe. He treated people well because he
loves adulation and you just don't get that without treating people
well. I'd suggest he did a disservice to the class, not only by being
too scared by the pixie incident to do anything else real, but by
wanting their adulation so much he postured for it, rather than actually
*teaching,* which would take the focus off him and onto his students
(horrors!!). This *was* probably unconscious; I doubt he realized this.
This is omission.

But he did cross the line into commission. One, in his books, he didn't
simply take the credit for others' achievements--he harmed them to get
it, which is evil. And two, he was cheerfully and unhesitatingly ready
to harm Ron and Harry to protect himself. This is also evil. In those
instances, there's the intent, if not the scope. So yes, I'd call
Lockhart more evil than not, if only on a small scale.

> And if he were truly as evil as all that, he could easily have viewed
> Harry as 'competition' and moved to take the young one out of the
> limelight so Gilderoy could be shone
> upon all by himself at Hogwarts.

Oh, but he did. He identified Harry as competition from the instant he
saw him. His way of handling this was to minimize Harry as a celebrity,
and to work Harry into his own P.R., remaining the larger Name. I think
he might have done more drastic things, save that his ego was such that
he quite honestly believed he was too big a deal for anyone to upstage.
[echoes of Voldemort and how *his* ego trips him up occur to me].

> I consider him more a tragically flawed character  -- Vanity makes him
> do really stupid things.  But he doesn't do them out of malice.
> He just doesn't _get_ that the world doesn't revolve around him.

That he is misguided does not alter the fact that what he did was evil.
And he knows it, or he would not attempt to compound the evil in an
attempt to hide it, by memory-charming Ron and Harry. He knows he has
something to hide. His public would desert him not simply because others
did the feats he claimed, but because he had made the false claim and
stolen their achievements. Otherwise he could go to his public with the
same line he gave Ron and Harry:

    "My dear boy," said Lockhart, straightening up and frowning at
Harry, "Do use your common sense. My books wouldn't have sold half as
well if people didn't think *I'd* done all those things....<details
deleted>"
 <a few paragraphs later>
    "Awfully sorry, boys, but I'll have to put a Memory Charm on you
now. Can't have you blabbing my secrets all over the place. I'd never
sell another book ---"
<and Ron and Harry disarm him in time>
(pp. 297-8, CoS, US)

He tries again, in the tunnels, and actually gets the spell off--the
only thing that saves Ron and Harry is the abysmal state of Ron's
damaged wand that makes the spell backfire.

So he is ready, willing, and able to harm Ron and Harry in order to hide
his actions, so that his celebrity status will be protected. This is
cold, calculating, and yes, evil.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 14:03:51 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 07:03:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <9eo7nb+igts@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010526140351.97119.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19527

> >I just think he is really self-centered to the point where he 
> >believes his right to fame, fortune, glory and a lifestyle to 
> >which anyone would like to become accustomed  supercedes anyone 
> >else's rights.
 
> and you would define evil as.....?

I think true Lord V.-style evil has to entail a degree of active
malevolence and willingness to inflict pain and/or death.  (Which is
why it's so easy to imagine Snape being evil.)

Lockheart's not evil so much as incredibly callous and self-centred. 
Which is not pleasant but not actually evil.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Sat May 26 14:25:30 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:25:30 -0000
Subject: who the hell is Florence? 
In-Reply-To: <F1925b6KZmcK8r6beUz0000ebac@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9eoecq+6254@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19528

> Also, who the hell is Florence? I've been reading the thread trying 
to 
> figure it out, but I have no idea. Is she in canon? If so, could 
someone 
> point me to the book & chapter? I'm lost here!
> 
> Lizzy
*****************************************************
    From the Pensieve chapter of GoF:

"    Dumbledore shook his head. "Curiosity is not a sin," he
said. "But we should exercise caution with our curiosity. . . yes,
indeed ..."

    Frowning slightly, he prodded the thoughts within the basin
with the tip of his wand.

    Instantly, a figure rose out of it, a plump, scowling girl of
about sixteen, who began to revolve slowly, with her feet still
in the basin. She took no notice whatsoever of Harry or Professor
Dumbledore. When she spoke, her voice echoed as Snape's had done,
as though it were coming from the depths of the stone basin. 'He put
a hex on me, Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir,
I only said I'd seen him kissing Florence behind the greenhouses
last Thursday. . . .'"

Doreen, who notices that most HPFGU members refer to Voldemort as "V" 
or "Voldie" and giggles, thinking, "Are they afraid to say his name 
as well?" 






From niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk  Sat May 26 14:44:35 2001
From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk (niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:44:35 -0000
Subject: West Ham(from a WHU fan)
In-Reply-To: <9empp1+tpsa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eofgj+qudu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19529

OK, since you asked here are the real facts from a dedicated Hammers 
fan. If you need more let me know but by the time I'm finished here 
you may have already wished you hadn't asked.

West Ham United Football Club (WHUFC) nickname the Hammers (or Irons) 
are located in EAST LONDON (London has 12 other professional Football 
teams) and to confuse things if you find a map of london (there are 
some online) you will find the stadium 'Upton Park' located in East 
Ham not West Ham.

The club has been professional for over 100 years and was origionally 
a works team attached to the Thames Iron works, hence the 
nickname 'Irons' or 'Hammers' i.e. the large hammers used to work the 
iron.

The Fans come almost exclusively from a 5-10 mile radius around the 
ground (mainly East London and Essex). 

The club has NEVER won the league title and last won the other major 
domestic competition (The FA Cup) in 1980. In short we suck, hence 
the fervent support from the local population but nothing outside of 
that.

The team play in claret & Blue you can find their website at 
www.whufc.com

Their song is 'I'm forever blowing bubbles' can supply the words if 
needed (or even an mp3).

Rgds-

Mark 'The Happy Hammer'

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., irbohlen at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer" <jennifer.k at l...> wrote:
> > So,
> > Is it a real team?
> 
> yes.
> 
> > Where are they located? ("west ham" really doesn't tell me 
> anything)
> 
> in London.
> 
> > How long have they played?
> 
> don't know
> 
> > Where are their fans (for the most part) located? (might give 
> some 
> > eventually indications to where Dean lives)
> 
> Probably mostly London...although Manchester United have 
> loads of fans in Ireland, so I suppose it's possible West Ham 
> might have fans outside London.
> 
> > Is there any homepage of theirs?
> 
> http://www.whufc.com
> 
> Good luck.  I would guess that Dean is from London. And wasn't 
> it list consensus that Dean comes from a Muggle background, 
> some evidence for it being his support of West Ham?
> 
> Ivis




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 15:15:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:15:27 -0000
Subject: Evil (was Lockhart) - "V" - West Ham
Message-ID: <9eohaf+7t21@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19530

Magda wrote:

>I think true Lord V.-style evil has to entail a degree of active
>malevolence and willingness to inflict pain and/or death.  (Which is
>why it's so easy to imagine Snape being evil.)

Evil takes many forms besides cruelty.  Lockhart doesn't take pleasure 
in causing suffering as such, but he does cause it. 

When you look at evil from the point of view of the person suffering 
its effects, the specific form it takes (cruelty, indifference, 
self-absorption, etc.) stops being very important.  Ginny is dying due 
to the evil perpetrated by Tom Riddle, and will certainly die if 
Lockhart gets his way.  If she could hear Lockhart at that moment, 
about to erase the memories of the only people who can save her just 
so that he can keep being rich and famous, do you think she'd feel any 
more warmly toward him than towards Riddle?  Which of them would be 
more culpable for her death?  I couldn't possibly say.

The Catholics are definitely on to something.  Sins of omission can 
cause just as much harm as sins of commission.

>Doreen, who notices that most HPFGU members refer to Voldemort as "V" 
>or "Voldie" and giggles, thinking, "Are they afraid to say his name 
>as well?" 

Nah, it's just too long to type!

Mark "The Happy Hammer" explained:

>The club has NEVER won the league title and last won the other major 
>domestic competition (The FA Cup) in 1980. In short we suck, hence 
>the fervent support from the local population but nothing outside of 
>that.

Well, your support may be local, but your fame spreads far and wide 
and across the ocean.  When I got to Dean in the books, I asked my 
husband the soccer fan (yes, we're from the USA) if there was really 
such a team as West Ham.  He instantly said, "Yes!  West Ham United!  
Why do you ask?"  I was impressed.

And if you think your team sucks, check out the New England 
Revolution.

Amy Z
who may be Dumbledore's age before her team wins the MLS Cup




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 15:22:28 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:22:28 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and MoM
In-Reply-To: <9ekg5k+qvdp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eohnk+10ngh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19531

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" <fyregirl at c...> wrote:
> This may have already been said, but I had 40 posts to read through 
> to see if it had, so instead of being up all night, I'll just post it!
> 
> When I read that Dumbledore had received an urgent owl from MoM, I 
> immediately thought, "What a slimy git that Quirrel is...he sent 
> Dumbledore the owl to go to London.  But when he gets to London he'll 
> know it wasn't real, but will it be too late? <gasp>"
> 
> That's what I thought of right away.  Maybe it was just me.  Maybe 
> I'm way off, but hey, my friends tell me that all the time, and they 
> still like me :)

According to Hagrid, early in PS, Dumbledore gets owls from Fudge
at MoM "every morning" - but not necessarily calling for personal
visits.  Btw, if he's flying from Scotland(?) to London - and
one hundred miles an hour is fast for Quidditch racing brooms
(top speed of Nimbus 1000) - it really does knock a hole in your day.
Perhaps he goes by broom to Aberdeen and then catches a plane -
or perhaps he isn't flying by broom, but by Fawkes?  (or has a
Learjet, or a Dyson ;-)

The odd thing is, several days have passed at that point - all the
school exams - since Harry guessed (wrongly?) that Snape had just
got Quirrell to give up the secret of Quirrell's puzzle guarding the
Philosopher's Stone.  Until Harry and his friends learned that
Dumbledore was away, there was no particular reason to believe
that the Stone was more at risk than it had been the day before.

Unless you were reading the books out of order, becoming acquainted
with JKR's taste for misdirection and the surprise at the end,
or unless you got a hint elsewhere, I don't see why you'd suspect
Quirrell instead of Snape at that moment - Harry doesn't!

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 15:28:24 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 08:28:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: West Ham(from a WHU fan)
In-Reply-To: <9eofgj+qudu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010526152824.13837.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19532


--- niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> The club has NEVER won the league title and last won
> the other major 
> domestic competition (The FA Cup) in 1980. In short
> we suck, hence 
> the fervent support from the local population but
> nothing outside of 
> that.
> 
So is it safe to say they're similar to the Chudley
Cannons? Looks like Ron and Dean have something in
common (ie. their support of hard luck teams).

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 15:47:12 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:47:12 -0000
Subject: A Dumbledore thought
In-Reply-To: <9ekg8s+hk59@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eoj60+roqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19533

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dasienko at e... wrote:
> The only remote hint that there could be other schools is in GoF when 
> we learn that Harry's mane had been put in the goblet under the name 
> of a different school. 
> 
> Dumbledore may have gone to another school, and this is what makes 
> him a little more lenient towards outsiders.

I thought it was at Steve Vander Ark's HP Lexicon site that I read,
surely on the best cited authority (JKR interviews?) - yes -
"JKR says that Hogwarts is the only Wizarding school in Britain
for kids eleven and up."  But I gather (without reading GOF)
that the contest is international; there are no doubt other
schools overseas for teenaged wizards.

That younger children may be educated in magic at home or in
something like a "dame school" (my choice of word) seems to be
conjecture on Steve's part; I think "prep schools" are also possible. 
I'll take the chance of citing, without asking leave:
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_academics.html

It seems to me that Dumbledore must have had secondary education
_somewhere_ in order to perform as head teacher.  (Does he actually
teach any classes now?  Should he?)

Steve perhaps takes Hermione's word by placing Dumbledore as a student
in Gryffindor, "c. 1851".  Otherwise, he may be an immigrant to
Britain - if he's that old, he's had plenty of time to lose any
accent - having been educated elsewhere.

What's this about Grindelwald, or shouldn't I ask - that's a place
name in Switzerland, isn't it?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 16:06:26 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:06:26 
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
Message-ID: <F215uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS0001469e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19534

"Evil takes many forms besides cruelty.  Lockhart doesn't take pleasure
in causing suffering as such, but he does cause it."
--Amy Z

If you're choosing to write about evil, you really do have a moral
obligation to show what that means.
--J. K. Rowling


Last week's edition of the U.S. newsmagazine *Newsweek* contained a very 
interesting article... "The Roots of Evil".

Evil in the Harry Potter books comes in many forms.  We have argued about 
whether or not many characters are truly evil or have the propensity to 
cause intentional harm--Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy often come up in these 
discussions for obvious reasons, but Draco Malfoy, Gilderoy Lockheart, 
Severus Snape, Crouch-as-Moody, Ron Weasley, and even Harry himself have 
been mentioned in our ongoing discussions about morality--or the lack 
thereof.

As I read the article last week, all I could think of was the Harry Potter 
series, and how the factors delinated could be applied to several of the 
main characters.

Below are excerpts from the Newsweek article.  Full text can be found at 
http://www.msnbc.com/news/572659.asp .

NARCISSISM  (Gilderoy Lockheart, Severus Snape (?))

"It is normal and-as evolutionary biologists say-adaptive to be 
self-centered. It keeps us alive. But if there is a single trait that allows 
lack of empathy and compassion to rot into pure evil, argue many 
psychiatrists, it is the extreme form of self-centeredness called 
narcissism. Narcissism is the huge multiplier, says Dr. Jeffrey M. 
Schwartz, a neuropsychiatrist at UCLA. The grandiosity that McVeigh 
exhibitedthat by his act he would bring down the governmentshows how badly 
the hero ethos can go wrong when it is not grounded in a strict moral code. 
Narcissism is what allows you to get evil acts from seemingly ordinary 
people. Grandiosity also allows a person to play god, deciding whose lives 
are dispensable in the service of which goals."


CHILDHOOD ABUSE AND NEGLECT  (Voldemort, Harry Potter (?))

"If a child suffers extreme neglect or cruelty, especially from a trusted 
friend or beloved relative, the result is often shame and humiliation: I 
was not worthy of love from those I love most. Those feelings, if not 
countered by compassion from others in the childs world, can grow into a 
self-contempt so profound that the only way to survive is to become 
indifferent to other people, too, says Goldberg. I may not be worthy, but 
neither is anyone else. Someone who hates himself projects that hatred 
onto his victims. He puts his hated self in the shoes of the victim, then 
tortures and kills that person, Simon explains.

"Studies of sociopaths indeed find that many experienced horrific abuse 
during childhood, which is a good start toward fostering self-hatred. But 
abuse also seems to leave a physical trace on the developing brain, 
assaulting it with a constant barrage of stress hormones. The result is that 
the child becomes inured to stress and, indeed, to most feeling. 
Emotionally, he flat-lines. He can no longer perceive another human beings 
distress; he cannot feel what another is feeling. One of the most consistent 
findings about the biology of violence is that sadists and coldblooded 
killers show virtually no response to stressno racing heart, no sweating, 
no adrenaline rush."


ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS  (Draco Malfoy)

"But just as evil can spring from a failing of the heart, so, too, can it 
grow from the head. You can have people who have a well-developed capacity 
for empathy, relating, who are very close to their friends, but who have 
been raised in an ideology that teaches them that people of another 
religion, color or ethnic group are bad, says psychologist Bruce Perry of 
the Child Trauma Academy in Houston. They will act in a way that is 
essentially evil based upon cognition rather than emotion. But the heart 
and the head interact. People who grew up amid violence and cruelty are more 
susceptible to ideologies that dehumanize the other in favor of the self."


MOB VIOLENCE (Death Eaters)

"Historys collective acts of great evil required the complicity of men and 
women who showed up at work, processed the papers that sent people to the 
crematoriums or the gulag, even participated directly in ethnic cleansing 
and gang rapeand who in their spare time played with their children and had 
a soft spot for animals. Most of those who carried out the Holocaust were 
ordinary Germans who rationalized the atrocities that they were committing 
by viewing Jewish lives as worthless, argued Simon in the fall 2000 issue of 
Phi Kappa Phi Journal. The unmistakable lesson is that ordinary, good 
people, devoted to their families, their religion and their country, are 
capable of inflicting horrific harm on those whom they dehumanize and 
demonize. As Hannah Arendt noted, it is the banality of evil that is so 
horrific."


THE ORDINARINESS OF EVIL (Peter Pettigrew)

"Historys collective acts of great evil required the complicity of men and 
women who showed up at work, processed the papers that sent people to the 
crematoriums or the gulag, even participated directly in ethnic cleansing 
and gang rapeand who in their spare time played with their children and had 
a soft spot for animals. Most of those who carried out the Holocaust were 
ordinary Germans who rationalized the atrocities that they were committing 
by viewing Jewish lives as worthless, argued Simon in the fall 2000 issue of 
Phi Kappa Phi Journal. The unmistakable lesson is that ordinary, good 
people, devoted to their families, their religion and their country, are 
capable of inflicting horrific harm on those whom they dehumanize and 
demonize. As Hannah Arendt noted, it is the banality of evil that is so 
horrific."


Anne Frank wrote in her diary, "I believe in the good in man."  I 
emphatically do not.  Yes, there is kindness and goodness everywhere, but I 
do not believe that goodness is the natural state of mankind.  Every man, 
woman, and child has a dark side.  Our natural tendencies, if unchecked by a 
moral compass, often persuade us to serve the self rather than the other.

The secular nature of the Harry Potter series is all well and good, as it 
allows people from all ideological backgrounds to enter into the world that 
JKR has created.

The downside of this is that it leaves the issue open for debate.  Exactly 
*what* is evil?  What is good?  If we do not define our terms prior to the 
debate, what we have is not reasoned discourse but chaos... which may be a 
reason why readers of the books view various characters in such radically 
diverse ways, and are passionately convinced that their interpretations of 
their favorite characters are always *right*.

As a Harry Potter fanfiction writer, I have been criticized several times 
for making the canon characters do not-so-nice things, things that some 
consider to border on evil.  My own morality, as a result, has been 
questioned.  Which is ridiculous--we are what we write in one way or the 
other, but I do question why we are so uncomfortable with heroes that are 
less than perfect and villains who are less than contemptible... for no one 
is completely black or white in their character (don't get me started on 
color symbolism), but varying shades of gray.

I agree with JKR.  I think that a writer has an obligation, to quote 
Senghor, to be brave enough to let their "song grow dark".  To have 
characters in their stories like Snape, who is on Our Side, but is the 
opposite of nice.  To write characters like Sirius Black, who has his own 
demons to wrestle with, but finds time to parent an orphan the best he knows 
how.  To write characters like Draco Malfoy, who is the epitome of nasty 
because that is all he knows how to be.  To write characters like Ron, in 
whom the seeds of discontent have obviously been sown, although it remains 
to be seen whether or not there will be a harvest.

Jo Rowling, by her own admission, says that one of her intents in writing is 
to show what evil is really like.  By her own admission, she is not a 
relativist (neither am I)... I do not have the chat, but JKR has at least 
once expressed her dismay that modern children have no real concept of what 
evil is.  I am not surprised--she used to be a teacher.  One does not have 
to be a member of the religious right to be horrified about the increasingly 
arbitrary value system of today's youth--which is directly the fault of 
their parents and schools.  To many, "evil is what I say it is", but when we 
get to such a point, civilization itself breaks down IMO.

My question is this:  What *is* evil, and how is it expressed in the Harry 
Potter books?  Conversely, where's the "good" in the series?  Is it always 
diametrically opposed to "evil"... or do they sometimes exist in the same 
context, the same scene... even in the same person?

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 16:11:15 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:11:15 -0000
Subject: Cats-Kneazles-Crookshanks-Arabella Figg
In-Reply-To: <9ekmpi+67km@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eokj3+t4n4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19535

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> Arabella Figg. Who is she and when will we find out about her? I 
> recently finished reading "Jude the Obscure" (yes I was reading it in 
> Feb., but I put it down for a month, or two, or three :-) so...) and 
> while I don't think JKR necessarily took Arabella's name from it, it 
> IS the only other book I've ever read with a character named 
> Arabella. Any speculation? (If this is correct I don't think we 
> should hold out much hope for her character.)
> 
> As far as Crookshanks goes there has been lots of theories as to
> M(r)s. Figg being an animagus etc. But my best bet is that
> 
> A) She's a Kneazle breeder, and that's why there are so many "cats" 
> around.
> or B) The cats are there to detect anything unsavoury that might harm 
> Harry. 
> 
> I know, I know! Both these thoughts have been expressed before, but 
> It seemed like a nice thing to add to the  Arabella thread.

>From a quick Web search, I think the name Arabella is mostly
European.  I don't know if there's a Web site to look up -
wait, let's guess: www.babyname.com.  Bingo!  Obviously I'm
not sure how authoritative this is, but allegedly 'This girl's
name is used in English and Italian.  Its source is orabilis,
a Latin word meaning "Prayerful."'

www.imdb.com says that the actress Arabella Weir was born in
California; I was about to claim her as British?

Figg doesn't appear in my Glasgow phone books as a surname;
Figgins does (three of 'em); there's a film director named
Mike Figgis (I didn't look up www.imdb.com for that.)

The conjunction is unusual, then.  Now, without reading
more than a synopsis, I don't suppose that perhaps Thomas
Hardy's Arabella Figg may _be_ JKR's - the story might have
turned out differently if she'd told Jude that she was a
witch?  Although Hardy was the subject of episcopal book-burning
as it was...

Now - where does Mrs. Norris fit into this?

(When Filch thinks she's dead, he calls it murder...)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 16:19:03 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:19:03 -0000
Subject: Harry as "classic" hero (was Re: Lily's Sacrifice)
In-Reply-To: <9ekblu+frl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eol1n+4f8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19536

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:
> Absolutely, positively, anyone interested in the hero aspect should 
> read Joseph Campbell's "Hero With A Thousand Faces"...

I always understood that (as you touched on) it was more or less
adapted for movie theatres as _Star Wars_ - is the book better? ;-)

And _Neverending Story_, and, well, names escape me but you can
probably supply some - old-time children's fairy-stories, too -
having seen enough of these stories, informed by Campbell where they
follow after him, don't we stand where Campbell stood anyway, in
perception of how these things work?

Of course it would have saved time to read Campbell _first_,
and skip some of the other works as redundant...

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 16:28:51 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:28:51 -0000
Subject: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010524235043.53177.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eolk3+er4t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19537

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> Lockheart: I had a hard time understanding why Dumbledore would hire
> him except for comic relief or to give Snape some dueling practice.

I don't know if you meant to suggest that Dumbledore as head teacher
thinks the school day needs comic relief and appointed Lockhart for
that reason, but I like the idea.

I wonder, though, if the post of DADA teacher will continue as a
running gag like _Spinal Tap_ drummers and Number 2 in _The Prisoner_
- it isn't unreasonable that the post actually should be jinxed.
However, Dumbledore sees the school as the most important thing
he does, and perhaps we should wonder too whether he's just unlucky
with the DADA teachers he appoints, or whether he actually doesn't
want to put someone competent into that job.  Perhaps he distrusts
the whole subject, as glamourising Dark Arts and encouraging
original-thinking students to practise Dark Magic themselves?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 16:38:51 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:38:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9eolk3+er4t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010526163851.98903.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19538

>> Lockheart: I had a hard time understanding why Dumbledore would
>> hire him except for comic relief or to give Snape some dueling
>> practice.
> 
> I don't know if you meant to suggest that Dumbledore as head
> teacher
> thinks the school day needs comic relief and appointed Lockhart for
> that reason, but I like the idea.

Actually, I meant that JKR created his character for comic relief in
the novel.  Dumbledore's ideas of comic relief are a mystery so far.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From JamiDeise at aol.com  Sat May 26 16:43:14 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:43:14 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived...
Message-ID: <fb.14753973.28413722@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19539

In a message dated 5/26/2001 10:02:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
meboriqua at aol.com writes:

<< The way the law is dealt with in the wizarding world is a very 
 interesting issue.  It seems to me that the MoM often uses "guilty 
 until proven innocent" tactics instead of the other way around.  >> I 
believe that is the British system of law, someone please correct me if I'm 
wrong. But I'm pretty sure that while it's "innocent until proven guilty" in 
the States, in Britain it's "guilty under proven innocent," and the onus is 
on the defendent, not the prosecution. 
 
 <<Sending Sirius off to Azkaban without a trial is definitely a panicked 
 response to a dire situation.  I suppose it reminds me of McCarthyism 
 here in the States when so many people were blacklisted simply because 
 our government decided that *any* association (however distant) with 
 certain other systems of governments was bad, bad, bad and had to be 
 stopped. >> The whole McCarthyism seemed particularly prevalent in the 
trials that Harry got to see in the Pensieve ... especially Karkaroff giving 
up the names of his fellow DEs (or maybe anyone ...) to save his butt, and 
the whole atmosphere of distrust and suspicion that surrounded those times. 

I can't understand why they weren't all just given the Veritaserum.

Jami 



From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 17:17:38 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:17:38 -0000
Subject: - Dumbledore in PS/SS
In-Reply-To: <9eldls+fv2o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eoofi+vaeu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19540

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:

> > When I get to see GOF presumably I'll understand better, but from
> > an idea of Roger Zelazny's later Amber novels - that powerful
> > wizards get lazy - my current idea is that Voldemort aimed a
> > simple killing stroke at Harry, which a baby wizard couldn't
> > possibly deflect 
> 
> I don't understant what you mean by "a simple killing stroke"? As far 
> as I understand, Voldy did an Avada Kedavra on Harry, just as he did 
> on Lily and James. Do you think there are different ways to do an AK? 

Not necessarily, but I haven't got as far as AK in detail.
Checking Steve Vander Ark's Harry Potter Lexicon - carefully,
to avoid spoilers - it seems that the green light that Harry
remembers from his parents' deaths is characteristic of AK,
so Occam's Razor says that AK is what Voldemort was using
throughout.

I'm still GOF-less, but try this: let's suppose the effect of
AK is to expel the soul from the body, leaving a lifeless cadaver
(hence the name).  We can guess that the soul is also the seat of
magical powers, if you've got magical powers.  Voldemort aimed his
AK at Harry's soul, but Lily interposed her own soul instead,
causing V's spell to misfire, backfire, and expel _his_ soul from
his body - and leaving Harry wearing something of both Lily's
powers (protecting him at the end of PS) and also Voldemort's
powers, specifically Parseltongue (CS).

That is an experiment that I don't want to see tried again,
but a not entirely unrelated idea from another author is that
"A wizard who knows he's going to die can sort of pass on his
wizardness to a sort of successor."

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 17:38:46 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:38:46 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!
In-Reply-To: <9em2r2+nhf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eopn6+p6rq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19541

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:

> My guess is there's a glamour charm on all Gilderoy's writing
> so that people don't too closely question the stuff they read 
> therein...

There is, and I'm using it here myself.  God knows I need it ;-)

> Gilderoy's first test: "What's my favourite colour?" and so on
> had to have been a red flag to Hermione if she hadn't been all
> doe-eyed because of Lockhart's pretty face.

I suppose his favourite colour may be Dark Creatures' least favourite
colour - may be repulsive to them - that's _why_ it's G's favourite.
At least, Hermione may reason that way.  It's...lilac.  Hmm.

I may be a Dark Creature myself, then?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From indigo at indigosky.net  Sat May 26 18:35:43 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:35:43 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!   -- Charmed Books? 
In-Reply-To: <9eopn6+p6rq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eot1v+hr9r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19542

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> 
> > My guess is there's a glamour charm on all Gilderoy's writing
> > so that people don't too closely question the stuff they read 
> > therein...
> 
> There is, and I'm using it here myself.  God knows I need it ;-)

*giggle* 

It struck me as odd that Mrs. Weasley, who has a husband in the 
Ministry and two sons in prestigious magic fields would be consulting 
Gilderoy Lockhart's books when she has some of the best and the 
brightest of the Wizarding world right in her house [or reachable 
easily enough by fireplace]?

This to me implies that Mrs. Weasley's and Hermione's normal sensible 
minds were overwhelmed. Which is where I got the idea of the charms 
on the books.

> 
> > Gilderoy's first test: "What's my favourite colour?" and so on
> > had to have been a red flag to Hermione if she hadn't been all
> > doe-eyed because of Lockhart's pretty face.
> 
> I suppose his favourite colour may be Dark Creatures' least 
favourite
> colour - may be repulsive to them - that's _why_ it's G's favourite.
> At least, Hermione may reason that way.  It's...lilac.  Hmm.
> 

I'd buy that explanation *if* Gilderoy actually had done any of the 
things he says he does in "Magical Me,"  "Gadding With Ghouls," and 
so on.

But he didn't. He interviewed all the actual heroic wizards and 
witches, then memory charmed them so he could take credit for their 
deeds.


> I may be a Dark Creature myself, then?
> 

Nah.  

Lilac's a nice color, is all. 

Besides, with a name like Indigo, I'd be a dark creature. Lilac's in 
that same family!






From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 26 18:38:13 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:38:13 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <F215uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS0001469e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9eot6l+217k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19543

Wonderful post as always Ebony, and lots to ponder as well!

"If you're choosing to write about evil, you really do have a
moral obligation to show what that means."-J. K. Rowling

Ebony:
"Last week's edition of the U.S. newsmagazine *Newsweek* contained a 
very interesting article... "The Roots of Evil". Evil in the Harry 
Potter books comes in many forms.  We have argued about whether or 
not many characters are truly evil or have the propensity to cause 
intentional harm--Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy often come up in these 
discussions for obvious reasons, but Draco Malfoy, Gilderoy 
Lockheart, Severus Snape, Crouch-as-Moody, Ron Weasley, and even 
Harry himself have been mentioned in our ongoing discussions about 
morality--or the lack thereof."

--Firstly everyone go read this article. It is really thought 
provoking and especially relevant to HP. The question I am now asking 
myself is just who is evil in the canon. No one is going to argue 
that Voldemort isn't evil, of course he is, but what makes him evil 
in our eyes? Is it desire to destroy anyone who gets in his way? Is 
it his desire for world domination and immortality? Or is it the 
"Kill the spare!" line? The fact that he has such a disregard for 
human nature, even people who are no threat to him. The article 
points out that- 

"Answering that requires that they first define evil....that evil 
probably includes an intent to cause emotional trauma, to terrorize 
or target the helpless, to prolong suffering and to derive 
satisfaction from it all. That list suggests a key trait in many 
evildoers: they lack the capacity for empathy. They are unable to 
understand with the mind and feel with their gut the pain and terror 
of another human being. "They cannot see the self in the
other," says Dr. Carl Bell, a psychiatrist at the University of 
Illinois."

--So Voldemort feels no empathy and that's why we believe he's evil? 
It's not that simple is it? Lockhart feels no empathy for those whose 
memories he destroys  and yet many of you don't see him as evil. He's 
ready to erase Ron and Harry's memories, and let Ginny die if it 
means he'll sale more books. 

So what characterisics do V. and Lockhart share? The most obvious is 
greed. People often misunderstand the Bible passage that says money 
is the root of all evil. I don't believe that, but I do believe that 
the overwhelming desire for anything, money included, can lead us to 
evil acts. 

So if greed is a characteristic of evil, then are greedy people 
always evil? No, take Ron for example. I don't think Ron is greedy, 
but he certainly has the potential for great jealousy and therefore 
greed. (I'm not saying that Ron is the only 'good' character who has 
the potential for 'evil' so don't flame me Ron-fans, read my next 
point first!)

Ebony wrote:
"Anne Frank wrote in her diary, "I believe in the good in man."  I 
emphatically do not.  Yes, there is kindness and goodness everywhere, 
but I  do not believe that goodness is the natural state of mankind.  
Every man, woman, and child has a dark side.  Our natural tendencies, 
if unchecked by a moral compass, often persuade us to serve the self 
rather than the other."

--Anne Frank also wrote in her diary "Despite everything I still 
believe people are good at heart." A famous line which Disney 
decidedly left out of their recent mini-series. I understand their 
reasons for leaving it out; I also agree with Ebony. I'd love to 
believe Anne's words which whether written out of naivete or great 
faith are beautiful, if not always true. 

I do believe that people are good but I also believe they are evil. 
It comes back to Dumbledore's wise words "It is our choices far more 
than our abilities that determine who we are." We are in a constant 
struggle with ourselves; we are our own worst enemy. Take Harry for 
example in CoS. He is being ostracized by the majority of the school, 
and even begins to doubt himself. He wonders if he shouldn't have 
been in Slytherin after all. (Of course this is resolved because 
Harry realises that wanting to be different from Tom Riddle is what 
makes him different.) 

Ebony wrote:
"The secular nature of the Harry Potter series is all well and good, 
as it  allows people from all ideological backgrounds to enter into 
the world that  JKR has created. The downside of this is that it 
leaves the issue open for debate.  Exactly  *what* is evil?  What is 
good?  If we do not define our terms prior to the debate, what we 
have is not reasoned discourse but chaos... which may be a 
reason why readers of the books view various characters in such 
radically  diverse ways, and are passionately convinced that their 
interpretations of  their favorite characters are always *right*.
<snip>
"I am not surprised--she used to be a teacher.  One does not have 
> to be a member of the religious right to be horrified about the 
increasingly arbitrary value system of today's youth--which is 
directly the fault of their parents and schools.  To many, "evil is 
what I say it is", but when we get to such a point, civilization 
itself breaks down IMO."

--I understand how this is both a good and a bad thing, and 
understand that evil isn't "what I say it is", but what else can it 
be? Evil, and by that same nature good, can only be mesured by our 
own values, and experiences and beliefs. I'm not going to get into 
religious beliefs, but I don't believe in a Satan or demons that are 
tempting me to do evil, but I do believe in my own weakness, and 
ability to do evil if I let the desire for it overcome my own good. 
Because Harry's world doesn't define for us how good and evil are 
measured we have to decide for ourselves. That's why I love these 
books and this list, because there are so many views and none of them 
are wrong.

Ebony wrote:
"Which is ridiculous--we are what we write in one way or the other, 
but I do question why we are so uncomfortable with heroes that are 
less than perfect and villains who are less than contemptible... for 
no one is completely black or white in their character (don't get me 
started on color symbolism), but varying shades of gray."

--I don't know. I don't have any problem with the fact that Harry 
isn't perfect, because it only makes him more realisitc and 
endearing, but I got the feeling Richard Abanes did. Is there a 
problem with the hero lying or breaking rules, and then getting in 
trouble for it (and even sometimes not, but that too is a reality of 
life)? Not IMO, but there is a problem with  the hero not 
doing it and thereby become some perfect unreachable ideal. Heros 
like Harry are everywhere everyday, and they aren't any different 
from the rest of us, except for that fact that given the chance they 
do something great. With that in mind everyone can be a great hero.

Ebony wrote:
"My question is this:  What *is* evil, and how is it expressed in the 
Harry Potter books?  Conversely, where's the "good" in the series?  
Is it always diametrically opposed to "evil"... or do they sometimes 
exist in the same  context, the same scene... even in the same 
person?"

--Good is choosing to be. Likewise evil is choosing to be. No that's 
not right. Voldemort doesn't say "I am evil" he tells Quirrell "There 
is only power and those to weak to seek it." Argh! As usual I am left 
with more questions than answers. I think HP and JKR has a lot to say 
on this subject, and yet we can only find the true definition of good 
and evil inside ourselves.

Thanks again for the wonderful post.

Scott





From margdean at erols.com  Sat May 26 18:18:27 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:18:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry  Lived...
References: <fb.14753973.28413722@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B0FF373.A227A138@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19544

JamiDeise at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/26/2001 10:02:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> meboriqua at aol.com writes:
> 
> << The way the law is dealt with in the wizarding world is a very
>  interesting issue.  It seems to me that the MoM often uses "guilty
>  until proven innocent" tactics instead of the other way around.  >> I
> believe that is the British system of law, someone please correct me if I'm
> wrong. But I'm pretty sure that while it's "innocent until proven guilty" in
> the States, in Britain it's "guilty under proven innocent," and the onus is
> on the defendent, not the prosecution.

No, Britain also has the "innocent until proven guilty"
standard.  (Hence the possibility, not to say the popularity, of
mystery novels.)  IIRC, the opposite =was= true in France at
least at one time.  Does anyone know for sure?

<snip> 

> I can't understand why they weren't all just given the Veritaserum.

Maybe Veritaserum is a relatively new development, like the
Wolfsbane Potion?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 19:05:14 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:05:14 -0000
Subject: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <20010526163851.98903.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eoupa+d18f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19545

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >> Lockheart: I had a hard time understanding why Dumbledore would
> >> hire him except for comic relief or to give Snape some dueling
> >> practice.
> > 
> > I don't know if you meant to suggest that Dumbledore as head
> > teacher
> > thinks the school day needs comic relief and appointed Lockhart for
> > that reason, but I like the idea.
> 
> Actually, I meant that JKR created his character for comic relief in
> the novel.  Dumbledore's ideas of comic relief are a mystery so far.

Well, there's the school song.  And socks.

The sock thing.  Is Dumbledore perhaps a rather large house elf?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 19:09:41 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry Lived - Where Dumbledore Studied
In-Reply-To: <9eocng+ia8f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010526190941.55806.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19546


Jenny from Ravenclaw writes:

  Sending Sirius off to Azkaban without a trial is
> definitely a panicked response to a dire situation. 
I suppose it reminds me of McCarthyism 
> here in the States when so many people were
> blacklisted simply because our government decided
that *any* association (however distant) with 
> certain other systems of governments was bad, bad,
> bad and had to be stopped. 

Ironically, it is also reminiscent of Soviet tactics
that led to many people being summarily shipped off to
Siberia (which I think is a more fitting parallel to
Azkaban than Alcatraz, the similarity in names
notwithstanding; people who've returned from Siberia
certainly seemed to have had all the happiness sucked
out of them).

> I also think the MoM is not the best government
> around.  Incompetence 
> and corruption seem to be lurking under the surface.

> [snip]
  Accepting such large donations from
> someone who was a known DE?  How superficial!  This
is something that happens with politicians all the
time (well, not the DE part). 

Depends on your interpretation of who might be
equivalent to Death Eaters in our world.  Supporters
of the Contras and the School of the Americas, maybe? 
The Klan?  Neo-Nazis?  Corporations that use slave and
child labor in third-world countries?  All far MORE
evil than Death Eaters, in my book.  > 
 
--Barb


__________________________________________________
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From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 19:25:55 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:25:55 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9eot6l+217k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ep003+e38a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19547

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <insanus_scottus at y...> wrote:
> --Good is choosing to be. Likewise evil is choosing to be. No that's 
> not right.

How about: good is choosing to be good - or rather, to do good;
evil is anything else?

So then we have to define "doing good".  How about "making the world
a better place".

So then we have to define "better".  If you have a religion, and
didn't take a different turning on a previous line, then the answer
to this one has probably already been written down somewhere for you;
for the rest of us, I'd guess that the world is better if it more
readily accommodates the people, animals, plants, and perhaps
artifacts, ideas, and mores that we care about - did I leave anything
off the list?  Should I drop artifacts, ideas, and mores?

This is relativism, of course; it allows both Voldemort and Lockhart
to deny to themselves that they're evil - because neither of them
cares about the people that they hurt.  But then, the object of the
exercise isn't to convince them of the error of their ways, but to
make up our own minds.

_Newsweek_ isn't necessarily where I'd turn first for an anatomy of
evil - but the quotes from the article seem to carry the notion that
evil is a deficiency in care, concern, and charity for one's fellow
creatures.  Unfortunately, it's also how some people make a living,
or get [word deleted on moderator advice] to high office ;-)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 19:28:01 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:28:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry as "classic" hero (was Re: Lily's Sacrifice)
In-Reply-To: <9eol1n+4f8a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010526192801.70766.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19548


 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Belle_Starr_777 at y...
> wrote:
> > Absolutely, positively, anyone interested in the
> hero aspect should read Joseph Campbell's "Hero With
A Thousand Faces"...

then rjcarnegie wrote:
> 
> I always understood that (as you touched on) it was
> more or less adapted for movie theatres as _Star
Wars_ - is the book better? ;-)
  
Campbell's work is not fiction or fairy-tale; it is an
analysis of mythology and fairy-tales (although
applying the hero-cycle works well for various
real-life heroes, such as JFK and Gandhi, among
others).  There's also Lord Raglan's hero cycle, as
well as the hero/anti-hero approach taken by some
scholars.  (Bellerophon, for instance, is held to be
an anti-hero.) 

Star Wars is fine for what it is, but Lucas is
downright cynical about the way he treats the hero
cycle as an outline and plugs stock characters into
it.  Give me JKR any day.



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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 19:45:59 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vitaserum
In-Reply-To: <F215uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS0001469e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010526194559.55079.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19549

Why was Snape walking around with a container of Vitaserum in his
robes anyway?  Does he not consider himself dressed in the morning
until he selects a potion for daywear?

"Ah, yes, let's see.  Got the robes, got the wand, what's missing? 
Oh right, the potion."

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From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sat May 26 20:02:51 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:02:51 -0000
Subject: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry  Lived...
In-Reply-To: <3B0FF373.A227A138@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9ep25b+1mca@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19550

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> JamiDeise at a... wrote:
> > 
> > In a message dated 5/26/2001 10:02:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > meboriqua at a... writes:
> > 
> > << The way the law is dealt with in the wizarding world is a very
> >  interesting issue.  It seems to me that the MoM often uses "guilty
> >  until proven innocent" tactics instead of the other way around.  >> I
> > believe that is the British system of law, someone please correct me if I'm
> > wrong. But I'm pretty sure that while it's "innocent until proven guilty" in
> > the States, in Britain it's "guilty under proven innocent," and the onus is
> > on the defendent, not the prosecution.
> 
> No, Britain also has the "innocent until proven guilty"
> standard.  (Hence the possibility, not to say the popularity, of
> mystery novels.)  IIRC, the opposite =was= true in France at
> least at one time.  Does anyone know for sure?

Not for sure, but from 
http://home.att.net/~u100482001/february2001homework/FrenchRevolutionPartII.htm
- which appears to be someone's textbook followed by homework
questions - it seems that the Napoleonic Code of Criminal
Procedure, in the year 1808 according to other online sources,
provides that defendants there are also presumed innocent.
During The Terror, it might have been another matter.

There seems to be concensus in Chapter 1 of PS that the
emergency is over - perhaps that didn't last very long?

>From POA: "Black was taken away" [from the "crime scene"]
"by twenty members of the Magical Law Enforcement Patrol,"
and has "been in Azkaban ever since."

There wasn't, perhaps, a trial held _in_ Azkaban, with Black
present?  His plea in defence could have been heard, but discounted -
the evidence that makes the difference is that Peter Pettigrew
escaped alive after all, and without producing Peter, Sirius
was sunk.

There's an ancient British law, pre-dating modern criminal codes -
if someone was "caught red-handed" - literally with blood on their
hands having clearly committed the crime - then a trial was redundant.
This was a _very_ long time ago - like, 1000 years.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat May 26 20:06:02 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:06:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] who the hell is Florence? 
In-Reply-To: <9eoecq+6254@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEOFDLAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19551

>>>>>>Doreen wrote:
who the hell is Florence?<<<<<<<<

My theory is:  Florence was Snape's girlfriend -- possibly his future wife,
who was either killed by Voldemort, or is still on Voldemort's team
(possibly in Azkaban).  Bertha Jorkins was spying on them while they were
all still in school.

Wouldn't it be awesome if Florence was the girl Snape loved, and she became
MRS. LESTRANGE!  Doubly intriguing.

SML

===============================================
"We shall never have more time. We have, and
have always had, all the time there is.
No object is served in waiting until next week
or even until tomorrow." -- Arnold Bennett
===============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Doreen Rich [mailto:nera at rconnect.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:26 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] who the hell is Florence?


> Also, who the hell is Florence? I've been reading the thread trying
to
> figure it out, but I have no idea. Is she in canon? If so, could
someone
> point me to the book & chapter? I'm lost here!
>
> Lizzy
*****************************************************
    From the Pensieve chapter of GoF:

"    Dumbledore shook his head. "Curiosity is not a sin," he
said. "But we should exercise caution with our curiosity. . . yes,
indeed ..."

    Frowning slightly, he prodded the thoughts within the basin
with the tip of his wand.

    Instantly, a figure rose out of it, a plump, scowling girl of
about sixteen, who began to revolve slowly, with her feet still
in the basin. She took no notice whatsoever of Harry or Professor
Dumbledore. When she spoke, her voice echoed as Snape's had done,
as though it were coming from the depths of the stone basin. 'He put
a hex on me, Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir,
I only said I'd seen him kissing Florence behind the greenhouses
last Thursday. . . .'"





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 20:08:30 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:08:30 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
Message-ID: <F36Y6YHkidcDjoYAPNX00000a07@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19552

Robert wrote:

>_Newsweek_ isn't necessarily where I'd turn first for an anatomy of
>evil - but the quotes from the article seem to carry the notion that
>evil is a deficiency in care, concern, and charity for one's fellow
>creatures.  Unfortunately, it's also how some people make a living,
>or get [word deleted on moderator advice] to high office ;-)
>

LOL!  Of course Newsweek isn't exactly the best place to get philosophical 
information, Robert, but with the varying range of ideologies to be found on 
list, the discussion needed to start somewhere.

Article aside, I'm still waiting for answers to the question I posed.  <g>

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

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From bohners at pobox.com  Sat May 26 20:52:04 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:52:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
References: <9eot6l+217k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003201c0e625$bb759e80$58bce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 19553

> So what characterisics do V. and Lockhart share? The most obvious is
> greed. People often misunderstand the Bible passage that says money
> is the root of all evil.

They often misquote it, too.  <grin>  It's "the love of money", not money
itself, that is "the root of all evil" according to the King James version
of the Bible.  Some other versions have "...a root of all kinds of evil,"
which is perhaps an even better translation.  </pedant>

But of course your point is, as you said below:

> I do believe that the overwhelming desire for anything,
> money included, can lead us to evil acts.

Which raises an interesting question in my mind.  We know, from the Mirror
of Erised, that Harry's deepest desire is to have a real and loving family
around him, and Ron's deepest desire is to be a "star" and set himself apart
from his brothers.  Okay, so Ron's more likely to get in trouble than
Harry -- I'm having a hard time imagining how Harry's desire could lead to
evil, but it's not hard at all to imagine how Ron's could.  (This is NOT to
say I expect Ron to go that route -- as I've said here before, I love Ron
and I think he'll be just fine.)  But I wonder what the deepest desires of
the other Hogwarts crew -- teachers and students -- might be and how they
might be twisted to evil if taken to excess.

Hermione's greatest desire, I think, would be to know everything.  But
sometimes people with an insatiable desire for learning aren't always too
discriminating about what they learn or where they learn it.  I don't really
see Hermione going this route, but she *could* get sucked into dark magic if
she doesn't watch herself.

Obviously Lockhart's deepest desire was for personal fame, and he went about
doing whatever he had to do in order to get it -- including lying, cheating,
and casting Obliviate right, left and centre.  (I really hate Obliviate.
Have I said this before?  I think it's evil.  The whole thing with Mr.
Roberts in GoF actually made me feel ill.)  And Voldemort's deepest desire
is for immortality -- we all know what THAT has led to.

Some people might think Snape's greatest desire is for personal glory, like
Ron's -- but I think this is a red herring, like the rumour that Snape wants
the DADA job.  I think Snape's greatest desire is to redeem himself,
frankly:  to somehow atone for the things he did as a Death Eater.  He seems
to be obsessed with finding and stopping evildoers, or those he perceives to
be evildoers (Quirrell in PS/SS, Sirius in PoA), and the most passionate
we've ever seen him was when he thought Sirius, that evil murderer, and
Remus, that vicious killer werewolf, were in league with each other and had
confunded Harry, Ron and Hermione into helping them.  We've already seen how
Snape's zeal to hunt down evildoers can actually lead him to judge people
too harshly and hastily and not give them a chance.

Any more thoughts?
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat May 26 22:25:26 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 22:25:26 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <F215uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS0001469e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9epagm+1ohr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19555

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:

	A wonderful post!


> Anne Frank wrote in her diary, "I believe in the good in man."  I 
> emphatically do not. 
	Anne was writing from the Jewish tradition, which teaches that the 
inclination to do good *and* the inclination to do evil are both 
natural to mankind. So  we have a dark side, which strengthens in us 
whenever we do what is evil, and a good side, which becomes more 
powerful when we do good. 

	What is evil?  And more importantly, how do we keep from doing it? 
One teaching is, "What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man. 
The rest is commentary. Go now, and study."

> The secular nature of the Harry Potter series is all well and good, as it  allows people from all ideological backgrounds to enter into the world that JKR has created.

	Amen to that! I enjoy reading C.S. Lewis, but as a non-Christian I 
sometimes feel that I am listening from outside the room, as it were.

  To many, "evil is what I say it is", but when we 
> get to such a point, civilization itself breaks down IMO.

	Which is why we shouldn't study alone! We will probably never 
reach a consensus on what is evil, even on this list, because what is 
hateful to one (memory charms!) may be the lesser evil to another. But 
we can at least try to learn and improve our understanding, so the next 
time that *we* have to make a choice, we can make a wiser one.

>
> My question is this:  What *is* evil, and how is it expressed in the Harry  Potter books?  Conversely, where's the "good" in the series?  Is it always  diametrically opposed to "evil"... or do they sometimes exist in the same  context, the same scene... even in the same person?

	I see  self-aggrandizement in Lockhart and Voldemort..and in 
Snape's badgering and insults. They are all self-centred, which is the 
heart of the evil inclination, and this leads them to do things to 
others that they certainly wouldn't want done to themselves. 
	
	Yet Lockhart and Snape at least are also capable of doing good: 
Lockhart's books do entertain, and perhaps inform, Snape despite his 
hatefulness is willing to risk himself to protect Harry and the Stone. 

	Rowling indicates that Voldemort is no longer human, so perhaps we 
shouldn't be looking to find any good in him at all. He's a fantasy of 
what humanity would be like if we could exist without any goodness in 
us. His followers serve him solely out of fear: even Hitler could 
inspire hope and heroic sacrifice in his followers, though in a 
terrible cause. 

	IMO, our evil inclinations can be turned toward good ends if we 
accept guidance, yet even our good inclinations will lead us astray if 
we look for guidance only within ourselves. Anyone who wants to know 
how Harry's desire for a family to love could lead him to evil had 
better read the latest chapter of Ebony's fanfic Trouble in Paradise! 
But in terms of canon, we have already seen that for Hagrid's sake he 
was willing to do something he shouldn't do...Dragon smuggling. 
Pippin
	





From star_ride12 at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 23:44:30 2001
From: star_ride12 at yahoo.com (star_ride12 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:44:30 -0000
Subject: question
Message-ID: <9epf4u+jv4s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19556

Does anyone know where the Ravenclaw dorms are?  And what are the 
secert passagways on the Marauder's Map?  They're in the third book, 
but I don't own a copy of it.  If someone could please answer me, 
I'd be forever grateful.  
Lily




From angela_burgess at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 23:47:51 2001
From: angela_burgess at yahoo.com (Angela Burgess)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <990809143.599.60958.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010526234751.17035.qmail@web3606.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19557

Just an example:
Hermione's line is the only one that indicates it,
IIRC.  IMHO, that's firm, but it's a judgment call.

OK, I know that this is probably listed somewhere, but
I am having a hard time finding it.  If it's listed
quite obviously, don't hate me...I can never find the
obvious things!  What do all of the abbreviations used
mean?  Many I can fugure out, such as the book titles,
BTW, IMO, and IMHO (in my humble opinion?).  But I
have no clue about the others, such as IIRC.  Can
someone please help, or at least point me in the right
direction?  Thanks so much!



=====
"Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls....
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one one of you be alone..."
>From The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Sat May 26 23:52:54 2001
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:52:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Abbreviations
References: <20010526234751.17035.qmail@web3606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01c101c0e63e$fd78ff20$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19558

There's a list of all of that kind of abbreviation stuff at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.ht
m

List Elf Joysie at your service! <curtsies, tripping over her pillowcase>

~Joy~




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Sat May 26 23:57:37 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:57:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <F215uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS0001469e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010526235737.40256.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19559


> My question is this:  What *is* evil, and how is it expressed in the 
> Harry Potter books? Conversely, where's the "good" in the series?  Is
> it always diametrically opposed to "evil"... or do they sometimes
> exist in the same context, the same scene... even in the same person?

Gah. What loaded questions.

My first kneejerk reaction is to say that both evil and good are
undefinable. I don't think there is one definition that the whole of
society can agree with because everyone's experience is different.
Furthermore, it seems that evil and good are very broad and have many
different levels and degrees. I couldn't even begin to think of all the
different types of evil/good that exist. I would be sitting here
forever writing that email. (although it would make for a cool
project...hm) Furthermore, they overlap and change with time. One act
that may be consider "evil" at one point may be considered "good" at
another. 

As for relating to HP, I have to think about it more. These are very
deep and important questions that I know *I* will have to ponder very
carefully. Already my head hurts, although I like thinking about this
stuff.

~Amber


=====
"Roses are for love. Not forget-me-not, honeysuckle, silly 
sweethearts' love but the love that makes you and keeps 
you whole, love that gets you through the worst your 
life'll give you and that pours out of you when you're 
given the best instead."
 - Robin McKinley "Rose Daughter"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Fri May 25 04:19:50 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:19:50 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fave Characters
References: <9ek2q8+5olm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE11n5U9T3TGJ2TUSzb00002c69@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19560

Ah. I guess you're right that he deserves a lot of credit. I mean, being able to survive Voldy's attacks is quite a feat. I just wish Ron and Hermione could develop their powers as well. But perhaps it's because Harry is destined to defeat Voldy, so he's the one who needs the training, and not the other two. They do work best as a team. Ah, I'm just naturally jealous of anyone who's famous. I wish Hermione had more of the spotlight, that's all.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Sat May 26 00:19:12 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:19:12 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:  Lily's Sacrifice; Owls
References: <9el54o+7hp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE11sn2Yf0scL9NtDEJ0000311e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19561

  Kelley: 
  When thinking of Lily's sacrifice, I remember this bit from CoS, ch 
  17:  "No one knows why you lost your powers when you attacked me," 
  said Harry abruptly.  "I don't know myself.  But I know why you 
  couldn't -kill- me.  Because my mother died to save me.  My common 
  ~Muggle-born~ mother," he added, shaking with suppressed rage.  "She 
  stopped you killing me."

  He learned this from Dumbledore, correct?  So, Lily's sacrifice is 
  what saved Harry's life, and we don't know what exactly caused Voldy 
  to lose his powers.  I've been figuring it's that "something about 
  Harry" we have yet to learn about...

  Ah. I see your point. Perhaps having Harry's blood now allows Voldy to touch Harry without being burned, like Quirrell was, which makes Harry a little easier to manipulate.

  On a totally unrelated topic, I wonder how owls know where to deliver letters. I don't recall people specifically telling them who to give letters to. Also, I've noticed animals can understand human speech in the Potter world. Buckbeak understood Malfoy when he called him a brute, and Hedwig is very expressive of her rage toward Harry when she comes back from her long journey delivering Sirius's letter, only to find him ungrateful. Any thoughts?

  Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun May 27 00:52:48 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:52:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry  Lived...
References: <fb.14753973.28413722@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B104FE0.AC7F949A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19562

JamiDeise at aol.com wrote:

> I can't understand why they weren't all just given the Veritaserum.

Dumbledore requested "the strongest you have" or something to that
effect, when he told Snape to go get it. We have been given to
understand that Snape's a pretty damned good potions brewer. For
something like Veritaserum, I'm betting that there's "grades" of it, and
the best stuff, the absolute you-can-trust-it, comes only from potions
brewers of Snape's caliber. Plus, it may well take eons to make, and be
vanishingly rare to come across. Not something you can slosh out like
ginger ale.

I think this may be a part of the reason Fudge can, well, fudge with
accepting the accounts of Crouch Jr.'s confession--that all
Veritaserum-produced testimony is suspect, since it's not 100%--even
though Dumbledore's Veritaserum was produced by Snape, an acknowledged
master. This may be why Dumbledore still wanted Crouch around to
testify.

I hope that made sense.

--Amanda, who's been shopping all day with her bow-head five-year-old


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 00:57:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:57:57 -0000
Subject: JKR, HP, Evil - MOM/McCarthy - Azkaban
Message-ID: <9epjel+62n9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19563

Scott wrote:

>The question I am now asking myself is just who is evil in the canon.

If I may rephrase slightly, I would ask myself who does evil at what 
moments.  Everyone in real life does evil, but how much of a 
preponderance of evil does there have to be before you label a 
=person= evil?  I would rather focus on defining what makes actions or 
intentions evil and not try to take the even more difficult step of 
defining people.

>--So Voldemort feels no empathy and that's why we believe he's evil? 
>It's not that simple is it? Lockhart feels no empathy for those whose 
>memories he destroys  and yet many of you don't see him as evil.

Well, I do (again, rephrasing it as "Lockhart does many evil things" 
to avoid the "what makes a person evil?" problem), and for me this 
lack of empathy is central.  Evil deeds are those that sacrifice 
another's well-being for one's own.  There, that's a very rough go at 
a definition.

>I do believe that people are good but I also believe they are evil.

My view exactly.  And the powers upon which we draw, and which we 
serve by our actions, are both good and evil; some personify them and 
call them God and Satan.  

I also agree with Scott that "we have to decide for ourselves" what is 
good and what is evil.  However, this in itself is not relativism.  We 
(individuals, societies, religious communities, etc.) have to decide 
because there is literally no alternative; as creatures with wills, we 
have to decide or refuse to decide, which is in itself a moral choice. 
 But the fact that discernment must ultimately be left up to each of 
us doesn't mean there is no evil or good but what an individual 
decides.  Many of the Nazis really believed that what they were doing 
was good.  I suspect McVeigh believes the same of himself.  I believe 
that they are wrong--not just that they have a different point of view 
than I do, la de da, to each his/her own, but that in this matter I am 
right and they are wrong.

Most cases, of course, are a lot harder to decide.

The fact that HP is secular (Ebony's point) doesn't have much to do 
with the relativism issue, IMO.  What if, a la Narnia, it were a 
Christian allegory instead?  We the readers would still have to make 
our own judgments about which actions were good and which were evil, 
and why.  Religion, unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), cannot 
save us from being moral agents who make our own choices about what is 
good and whether to practice it.  Even if one surrenders one's will to 
God, that's a decision one has made . . . and IMCUO (In My Completely 
Unverifiable Opinion), there is no way to be absolutely certain that 
what one has surrendered to is indeed God and not Satan or one's own 
delusions.  Please understand me, I am not suggesting that religious 
people are delusional!  Just that the human will cannot be willed 
away.  It is there, and we are responsible for what direction we send 
it.

"Preacher was talking, there's a sermon he gave,
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved.
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied."
          --Bob Dylan, "Man in the Long Black Coat," from _Oh Mercy_.

I respectfully disagree that our consciences are vile and depraved, 
but I sympathize with the problem.  How does one know whether one is 
obeying "that of God within" or some evil impulse?  That problem does 
not disappear when one walks into the door of a church.

That inner voice takes different forms in Harry.  Is the voice that 
tells him to kill Sirius the same voice that tells him to resist the 
Imperius Curse?  Or is it the same as the voice that coaxes him to 
give in to the Imperius Curse?  Or are they three different voices?  I 
don't think Harry's a schizophrenic or that anyone in particular is 
speaking to him.  The voices within illustrate the complexities of the 
inner life; we all have voices, aspects of ourselves you might say, 
that tell us conflicting things, and at certain times it's very very 
difficult to know which ones to heed.  Harry ignores the voice that 
commands him to kill Sirius, but he isn't sure it was the right thing 
to do until later, when he finally trusts him.

I guess my point is that JKR not only takes the effects of evil 
seriously, she recognizes that good and evil are intertwined and it's 
very hard at times even for a very good person to sort out which of 
his desires are good and which are evil.  I think that far from being 
a dangerous thing to teach children, that is a moral lesson our world 
desperately needs children to learn.  We have to teach them right from 
wrong, but we also have to teach them how to discern right from wrong 
themselves, and to do that we have to acknowledge to them that that is 
often difficult--that in fact no adult knows how to do it quite 
correctly.

Barbara wrote re: McCarthyism/MOM's suspension of civil rights:

>Ironically, it is also reminiscent of Soviet tactics
>that led to many people being summarily shipped off to
>Siberia 

An irony that was noted by courageous Americans of those years.  The 
McCarthyites (some of them) believed that what they were doing was 
all-American; their opponents (some of them) believed that opposing 
them was more in keeping with American ideals.

>(which I think is a more fitting parallel to
>Azkaban than Alcatraz, the similarity in names
>notwithstanding; people who've returned from Siberia
>certainly seemed to have had all the happiness sucked
>out of them).

It is a good parallel.  Alcatraz is a good one, too, though.  Aside 
from the name and being on an island, its prisoners often entered sane 
and left insane (Al Capone e.g.).

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
  "And I think that werewolf over there fancies you."
  Lupin was taken aback. "What? Pete?"
  Sirius grinned. "No, the pretty one in the blue."
             --Cassandra Claire, Draco Sinister ch. 14
--------------------------------------------------------




From angela_burgess at yahoo.com  Sun May 27 01:08:47 2001
From: angela_burgess at yahoo.com (Angela Burgess)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:08:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Gilderoy, DADA, Quotes
Message-ID: <20010527010847.28114.qmail@web3604.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19564

Someone had written about meanings behind the name
Gilderoy.  It's already been pointed out that "roy" is
medeival French for "king".  I checked my memory and
then my dictionary, but couldn't find a listing for
"gil" or "jil" (since the letters "g" and "j" are
pronounced opposite in the French alphabet), but the
closest thing I could find was "gilet" which meands a
cardigan or waistcoat.  I couldn't find any meaning
there, but maybe someone else can?

Also:
"However, Dumbledore sees the school as the most
important thing he does, and perhaps we should wonder
too whether he's just unlucky with the DADA teachers
he appoints, or whether he actually doesn't want to
put someone competent into that job.  Perhaps he
distrusts the whole subject, as glamourising Dark Arts
and encouraging original-thinking students to practise
Dark Magic themselves? -Robert Carnegie"
I have to say that I don't particulary agree with this
statement, as Dumbledore appoints Lupin and Moody,
both of whom are competent AND actually teach DADA,
Couch, Jr.-as-Moody especially.  I think he's just
unlucky, in that he appoints some of the best people
for the job, even knowing that they will most likely
not stay, for one reason (Lupin being a werewolf) or
another (Moody not really being Moody, aside from
saying he would only do it for one year when he
*really* was Moody).  (Did that make any sense?)  I
think it actually makes for some good lessons, since
it allows the students to learn from all different
kinds of people.  As a teacher myself, I encourage my
students to be open-minded about learning from others,
since I am simply not capable of teaching them
everything they need to know.  In addition, when a
student becomes complacent with a teacher, there is
the danger of the student becoming complacent about
learning, and thereby not try as hard.

Finally, I just wanted to comment on a difference in
translations between the French and English
translations of HP.  The quote that stands out most in
my mind is "It is our choices far more than our
abilities that determine who we are".  In French, the
quote is "Ce sont nos choix qui nous montrent vraiment
plutt que nos actions", which roughly translates to
the same thing, except instead of "abilities", the
word is "actions".  I find this to be especially true
when you think about it this way:  It is not the act
of doing good that shows that we are good...it is the
fact that we CHOSE to do good, rather than evil.  This
is just my humble opinion.  Anyone else care to share
theirs?

Sorry for rambling...thanks for putting up with me!
Angela

=====
"Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls....
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one one of you be alone..."
>From The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sun May 27 01:09:52 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:09:52 -0000
Subject: Veritaserum & Hagrid and Wizard Lawyers
Message-ID: <9epk50+b03b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19565

I can't find the exact thread to which I'm replying so I hope this 
makes sense. The two subjects don't have anything to do with each 
other but were together in the original post.

Veritaserum

I really wish that JKR hadn't created Veritaserum, because it makes 
way for tons of plot holes. My guess is that the person who pointed 
out it probably didn't exist at the time of Sirius'(s) trial was 
right. Only I'd imagine that it didn't exist in JKR's head, and 
thereby didn't exist in canon. (At the same time this seems pretty 
unlikely as it's a major plot point. Then again if it's so important 
why didn't JKR just drop it in a earliar book like PJP? I still think 
it was a GoF invention.) However I can't think of a better 
explanation. Anyone else want to try?


One thing I know we discussed in the past, but I can't remember and 
I'm not going to bother going through the archives for is whether a 
person under Veritaserum's influence would remember an event as it 
actually happened, or as they experienced it. For example if we gave 
Harry and Voldy Veritaserum and asked them what happened in the 
Graveyard would we get the same story?

Hagrid and Wizard Lawyers

Someone asked why Hagrid didn't hire a lawyer (barrister in the UK?) 
to represent Buckbeak at the trial in PoA. My first thought was that 
he didn't have enough money, but wouldn't/shouldn't the government 
provide a lawyer. Is that only valid in cases involving humans. 
Seriously though shouldn't he have some type of legal council 
provided. 

My second thought was that perhaps no one would represent him given 
the small size of the WW, the nature of the case, and his own 
history, I'd imagine that they'd be just a bit wary. As far as they 
know Hagrid's creatures have done far worse than this. Then again 
Hagrid isn't the one on trial so I'm not entirely sure.

Do they have lawyers at all? From what we saw in the Penseive the 
answer seems to be no, but I think we all agree that mightn't have 
been regular circumstances.

Scott





From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun May 27 01:25:55 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:25:55 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <F215uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS0001469e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9epl33+hcrh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19566

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> My question is this:  What *is* evil, and how is it expressed in the 
Harry 
> Potter books?  Conversely, where's the "good" in the series?  Is it 
always 
> diametrically opposed to "evil"... or do they sometimes exist in the 
same 
> context, the same scene... even in the same person?

Excellent questions (and posting, too)! Something that I believe about 
evil is that there is no evil without good.  They must go hand in 
hand.  I mean, one cannot measure what good is without also knowing 
what evil (or bad) is - just like not knowing happiness without also 
knowing sorrow.  I would say at this point in the series, Dumbledore 
and Voldemort are the examples of the opposite ends of the good and 
evil spectrum.  

In HP, I think that there are examples of different kinds of evil 
(Amanda Lewanski said this nicely when she talked about Lockhart's 
behavior and how it was evil, but not too evil).  There are characters 
who do evil things, but that doesn't mean they are the embodiment of 
evil - that's Voldie's job.  

Rita Skeeter, IMO, does some things that are pretty damned close to 
being evil.  She will stop at nothing for a story, even if it means 
she has to lie, step on people, expose their secrets, and belittle 
them.  To me, those are definitely behaviors that are clearly bad, 
even if they aren't bad enough to be evil.  Snape also displays some 
pretty deplorable behavior - his insulting Hermione and taunting 
Neville certainly prove that.  And yes, just like what others have 
said, Lockhart's narcissism and disregard for the lives of Ginny, Ron 
and Harry are behaviors that are well on their way to turning Lockhart 
into what could be and excellent DE.

But are these examples the *embodiment* of evil?  Not separately.  
Voldemort is, though.  His thirst for immortality, murders of 
innocents, and "Kill the spare" comments go far beyond evil behavior.  
While Skeeter, Snape and Lockhart have behaviors that can be seen as 
evil, they also are people with emotions, desires, and regrets.  
Voldie has none of those things.  That's evil.  

--jenny from ravenclaw**************************




From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Sun May 27 01:25:17 2001
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:25:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum
References: <9epk50+b03b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01fe01c0e64b$e4183020$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19567

Sorry, I can't find the original message in this thread, but we were
discussing why Veritaserum wasn't used to clear Sirius.  IMHO, it's like a
lie detector test.  Some people trust it and think it works, some don't.  Or
maybe it's not used because it could be abused to obtain a confession
against someone's will (like police brutality), making it difficult to trust
and hard to prove as admissible evidence.

~Joy~






From angela_burgess at yahoo.com  Sun May 27 01:45:22 2001
From: angela_burgess at yahoo.com (angela_burgess at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:45:22 -0000
Subject: Abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <01c101c0e63e$fd78ff20$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com>
Message-ID: <9epm7i+u0vp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19568

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "- Joy -" <joy0823 at e...> wrote:
> There's a list of all of that kind of abbreviation stuff at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-
shorthand.ht
> m
> 
> List Elf Joysie at your service! <curtsies, tripping over her 
pillowcase>
> 
> ~Joy~

Joy,
Thank you so much!  Your email was exactly what I needed!  Everything 
makes so much sense now!!  I'll return the favor if the chance ever 
arises!
Eternally grateful,
Angela




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 02:44:07 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:44:07 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil (was Lockhart) - "V" - West Ham
References: <9eohaf+7t21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE64gm6qv5KYtc5CQ9f000032ff@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19569

Evil takes many forms besides cruelty.  Lockhart doesn't take pleasure 
in causing suffering as such, but he does cause it. 

Along these lines, I'm sure all of us have been mean to others, whether it was because we were having a bad day or were young and foolish, but I think we look back on those moments with pangs of guilt and regret. Lockheart felt no such guilt, which makes him evil.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun May 27 02:50:00 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 02:50:00 -0000
Subject: JKR, HP, Evil - MOM/McCarthy - Azkaban
In-Reply-To: <9epjel+62n9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9epq0o+t6hg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19570

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
Alcatraz is a good one, too, though.  Aside 
> from the name and being on an island, its prisoners often entered 
sane 
> and left insane (Al Capone e.g.).
> 

In Capone's case, that was more from the effects of tertiary 
syphyllis than conditions at Alcatraz.

   - CMC





From editor at texas.net  Sun May 27 02:54:03 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:54:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum
References: <9epk50+b03b@eGroups.com> <01fe01c0e64b$e4183020$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B106C4A.5AC27C81@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19571

- Joy - wrote:

> Sorry, I can't find the original message in this thread, but we were
> discussing why Veritaserum wasn't used to clear Sirius.  IMHO, it's
> like a lie detector test.  Some people trust it and think it works,
> some don't.  Or maybe it's not used because it could be abused to
> obtain a confession
> against someone's will (like police brutality), making it difficult to
> trust and hard to prove as admissible evidence.

Or maybe we should take a clue from Snape's opening speech. Perhaps he
is such a bitter man because he is a master of an undervalued art.
Responses and testimony obtained via a potion may be simply less
"trusted" or perceived as valid, than the same obtained via an outright
spell. Sort of the way the participants in our legal system once
perceived DNA evidence and other tests now considered incontrovertible.
It may simply be that Veritaserum isn't used, or trusted completely when
it is used (without alternate confirming evidence), because it's "just"
a potion. [Combined with the thought that the serum can be of varying
strengths, i.e., reliability in overcoming resistance to its effects, I
can see why it's use is not automatic confirming evidence.]

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun May 27 02:57:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:57:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum
References: <9epk50+b03b@eGroups.com> <01fe01c0e64b$e4183020$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> <3B106C4A.5AC27C81@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3B106D02.D292BC9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19572

AAAGH. The editor made a glaring grammatical typo. Great stars, I must
be tired. Five points to the houses of whoever spots it and *doesn't*
trumpet it to the skies, eh?

--Amanda, still glazed from her day of shopping and the amount she just
paid for Birkenstocks

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Or maybe we should take a clue from Snape's opening speech. Perhaps he
> is such a bitter man because he is a master of an undervalued art.
> Responses and testimony obtained via a potion may be simply less
> "trusted" or perceived as valid, than the same obtained via an
> outright spell. Sort of the way the participants in our legal system
> once perceived DNA evidence and other tests now considered
> incontrovertible.
> It may simply be that Veritaserum isn't used, or trusted completely
> when it is used (without alternate confirming evidence), because it's
> "just" a potion. [Combined with the thought that the serum can be of
> varying strengths, i.e., reliability in overcoming resistance to its
> effects, I
> can see why it's use is not automatic confirming evidence.]
>
> --Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Sun May 27 03:12:10 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 22:12:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Viritaserum
Message-ID: <20010526.221211.-562625.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19573


	I think that Veritaserum could be semi-explained if I use some fanon
sources. In Cassandra Claire's wonderful story Draco Dormiens, she comes
up with a truth spell that torments the persom under the spell, but
forces them to tell the truth. The only catch is that you have to have
some skill in the Dark Arts to perform the spell. The Veritaserum could
be a safer, less-painful way to get the truth out of people and evolved
from wanting the truth but not wanting to harm the person

Sara
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my **120%** Harry Potter Obsession Rating (Thank you,
fanfiction!)


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com  Sun May 27 03:24:06 2001
From: matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com (Matthew Dawdy)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 22:24:06 -0500
Subject: Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <3B106D02.D292BC9@texas.net>
Message-ID: <NFBBJCDBKKPIKOBACKLBKEADCFAA.matt.dawdy@gpsys-inc.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19574

There are a few people on this list who have brought up the possibility that
veritaserum is like a lie detector test -- not allowable in a court of law.
Something to support that is that is MIGHT be like the Imperius Curse --
some people can resist it -- who knows, maybe it acts just like the IC?

Also, and maybe not contradictory, is that it is illegal to use the
Veritaserum on another human being(just like the IC).  Dumbledore has proved
he is not above breaking rules to reach his own ends (having Moody teach
underage students about the 3 unforgivable curses for one).

Whaddya think?

Matt "who had NO idea the list was this active (but I LOVE it!) -- must
switch to digest mode so I can get some work done!" Dawdy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun May 27 03:28:55 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 22:28:55 -0500
Subject: Mayhap of interest
Message-ID: <3B107476.5F452413@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19575

This is out of my price range at the best of times, but this lady is
offering a full set of JKR-autographed books, her asking price is $140,
and she's got no bids yet. So I thought I'd let you guys know.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1433869531




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 08:59:51 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:59:51 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione
References: <20010523191939.12766.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> <3B0C9522.14319623@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <OE59rIyklxDqRQtdB3x00002589@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19576


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 6:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Fave Characters


  Hello Everybody!!

  Amber wrote:

  >
  > Hermione Granger - My favorite character out of the entire canon. Not
  > only is she a voracious reader, but she loves to learn. She stands up
  > for her friends, and even isn't afraid to stand against them when she
  > feels strongly enough (ex: Firebolt incident, Scabbers). She is also
  > willing to do a lot for a friend (example: helping Hagrid with
  > Buckbeak's trial when she was already too busy to eat or sleep, helping
  > Neville with his homework and Potions). She's not dazzlingly beautiful
  > like a couple of other school witches (Fleur and Cho). I would love to
  > find a best friend like "Herm-own-ninny".

  Hermione is, hands down, my fave character. She's changed and grown up so much in the four years that we've known her. And she's just so cool. She's strong willed, stubborn, and has a fun side.

  One of the main reasons I like her is this: she's not a classic beauty. She's the main "heroine", I guess, and she's not a drop dead knock out. She's a bushy haired, buck toothed (though not anymore) normal girl. She's smart, promotes
  reading, and has a nice sense of fairness.

  I just think she kicks, personally. I don't know why, but when we first met her on the train to Hogwarts, I thought, "ooo, feisty. Feistys good."

  TTFN,
  Jamieson

  I know I should cut out this entire message, but I agree with everything here. Though I must admit that her bossiness annoyed me. I like how she's so logical and smart. She's like me, a know-it-all. What's wrong with intelligence, I say? I feel I am most like her in character. Or perhaps it is that she is most like me...Sorry for the pointless post.

  Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 02:21:20 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:21:20 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him
References: <9eo7du+rtij@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE59kGhAj5p1Fjxe0ym000032e2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19577

> Ah ... but Molly Weasley also believed all the garbage that Rita 
> Skeeter wrote about Hermione. Remember how badly she treated 
Hermione 
> after she read Rita's column?

This is true too and I was just as shocked to see that, given that 
Mrs. Weasley has known Hermione for four years now [or at least 
peripherally through Ron].  

That's just it. Molly doesn't really know Hermione. But then, I would think Molly would know not to trust Rita Skeeter. I mean, after all the fraudulent articles on the Ministry's actions...

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 03:52:00 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 03:52:00 
Subject: Molly (was Re: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him)
Message-ID: <F216bpG1KiaexdDAO2R00000c53@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19578

Apologies for having lost the original poster here:
> > Ah ... but Molly Weasley also believed all the garbage that Rita
> > Skeeter wrote about Hermione. Remember how badly she treated
>Hermione
> > after she read Rita's column?

Vicky responded:

>This is true too and I was just as shocked to see that, given that
>Mrs. Weasley has known Hermione for four years now [or at least
>peripherally through Ron].
>
>That's just it. Molly doesn't really know Hermione. But then, I would think 
>Molly would know not to trust Rita Skeeter. I mean, after all the 
>fraudulent articles on the Ministry's actions...
>


LOL!  I brought this up a few months ago, but it was in the middle of our 
last Great Ship Debate, and the list becomes a Very Scary Place when the 
shippers go at it.  (Isn't it nice that we've matured so much since then?  
;-))

Earlier this week, Heidi did a great post on the difference between a news 
daily like the *Daily Prophet* and a women's mag like *Witch Weekly*.  The 
fact that Molly treated Hermione in such a fashion based on hearsay alone 
made me bothered me in GoF.

What we do not know is *why* Molly believed the articles, or what in the 
articles specifically led her to question Hermione's character, which as any 
die-hard Hermione fan will tell you, is beyond reproach.  ;-)

--Ebony



<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun May 27 03:59:10 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 03:59:10 -0000
Subject: Owls
In-Reply-To: <OE11sn2Yf0scL9NtDEJ0000311e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9epu2e+nnip@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19579

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:

>   On a totally unrelated topic, I wonder how owls know where to 
deliver letters. I don't recall people specifically telling them who 
to give letters to. Also, I've noticed animals can understand human 
speech in the Potter world. Buckbeak understood Malfoy when he called 
him a brute, and Hedwig is very expressive of her rage toward Harry 
when she comes back from her long journey delivering Sirius's letter, 
only to find him ungrateful. Any thoughts?
> 
>   Vicky
> 
The best answer I can come up with is that it's magic.  After all, 
who (or what) would train the owls that one can use (rent?) in the 
Post Office to deliver mail?  How would the owls, or the tropical 
birds Sirius uses to send Harry mail in GoF, know where to go if 
they've never been there before?  And, at the end of PoA, when Harry 
reads Sirius' letter to him on the train, it says something to the 
effect of "If you need me, send a note.  Your owl will find me."  How 
would Hedwig have any idea of where to find someone she has never 
looked for before who is now out of the country?  

It has also seemed to me that some people are more attuned to the non-
human speech of animals.  Hagrid certainly seems to have an 
understanding of all sorts of creatures, although I'm not sure that 
it is of a communicative nature.  He may simply be one of those 
people who is good with animals.   Sirius seems to have more of a 
communicative bond with Crookshanks than anyone else does, including 
Hermione.  Can this be explained by the fact he's an Animagus, or is 
there some other power being exhibited here?  Pettigrew is also an 
Animagus, but I don't believe we've seen him in communication with 
animals.  

Marianne, who'd love to be able to enlist the aid of her lazy cats to 
perform certain tasks around the house




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Sun May 27 03:59:48 2001
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:59:48 EDT
Subject: Lockhart - Evil?
Message-ID: <8e.16210d63.2841d5b4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19580


 Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> writes:

<<He tries again, in the tunnels, and actually gets the spell off--the

only thing that saves Ron and Harry is the abysmal state of Ron's

damaged wand that makes the spell backfire.


So he is ready, willing, and able to harm Ron and Harry in order to hide

his actions, so that his celebrity status will be protected. This is

cold, calculating, and yes, evil.


--Amanda >>

Well voiced, Amanda! Ah, but does Lockhart get the SAME spell off? Remember 
that in his office, Lockhart was ready to do a memory charm on Harry and Ron, 
but in the tunnel to the Chamber of Secrets his intent appeared much much, 
more severe than a mere forgetting of some information:  "I'll explain that 
you two tragically lost your minds at the sight of her mangled body....". It  
sounds to me a bit more intense than just a memory charm (has JKR given us 
the "Word" for memory charm? I could use the antithesis -- a memory 
enhancement -- from time to time-like now!) at any rate the charm or spell 
Lockhart voices in the tunnel is "Obliviate" which had it landed, according 
to Lockhart's spoken intention, would "obliterate" their minds.  Lockhart at 
that point behaves in my eyes, you should pardon the expression, like an evil 
desperate rat.... 

Aylihael::pausing from client paperwork and transcription notes and adding 
her 2 knuts worth with apologies to the nice rats, hamsters, and other 
smallish furry rodents she has known::

" If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible 
warning."



From deeblite at home.com  Sun May 27 04:03:59 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:03:59 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9eolk3+er4t@eGroups.com>
References: <20010524235043.53177.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010527000225.02693a40@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19581

At 04:28 PM 5/26/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
>
> > Lockheart: I had a hard time understanding why Dumbledore would hire
> > him except for comic relief or to give Snape some dueling practice.
>
>I don't know if you meant to suggest that Dumbledore as head teacher
>thinks the school day needs comic relief and appointed Lockhart for
>that reason, but I like the idea.
>
>I wonder, though, if the post of DADA teacher will continue as a
>running gag like _Spinal Tap_ drummers and Number 2 in _The Prisoner_

Number 2 in The Prisoner could hardly be considered a "running gag."   oO

>- it isn't unreasonable that the post actually should be jinxed.
>However, Dumbledore sees the school as the most important thing
>he does, and perhaps we should wonder too whether he's just unlucky
>with the DADA teachers he appoints, or whether he actually doesn't
>want to put someone competent into that job.  Perhaps he distrusts
>the whole subject, as glamourising Dark Arts and encouraging
>original-thinking students to practise Dark Magic themselves?

That doesnt seem to be something Dumbledore would do, to me..
-- 
Deeblite
WTF is an acronym?




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 04:31:02 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:31:02 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Skeeter, Lockhart, evil?
References: <9epl33+hcrh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE4781TbdkSmLAztxc100003366@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19582

Someone (I forgot who): 
While Skeeter, Snape and Lockhart have behaviors that can be seen as 
evil, they also are people with emotions, desires, and regrets.  


I wonder whether Lockhart and Skeeter have regrets. They seem to have no problems going on their merry way, stepping on people and ruining lives. I wonder if Snape regrets his cruelty to Neville and Hermione. Somehow, I doubt it. Of course, I'm biased where he's concerned, so am more inclined to chalk it up to bitterness, though it doesn't make it any more right in my eyes. I dislike how he favors his own house, too. Is he mean to all students that aren't Slytherin, or is he excessively mean to Harry and Co. by association?

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 04:29:05 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 04:29:05 
Subject: Fave Characters
Message-ID: <F29H2q6DqaJY4kJSFsx00005f21@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19583

The following is a rather flighty-Ebony post...

Jenny wrote:

>My favorite character, without even hesitating to think about it is
>Harry, Harry, Harry.  Not only do I feel for him having to deal with
>being without parents, but also being famous without wanting to be
>famous - and handling it all beautifully.  I admire the way he can
>keep his head in dire or unexpected situations.  I'm more the type to
>panic, yell, stutter, shake... certainly not think on my feet the way
>Harry can.

YES!  That's a no-brainer for me, too.  I'm glad I'm not alone.  I know it's 
considered horribly cliche to like the hero the best, but then again, I like 
old musicals, think Chanel No. 5 is a great fragrance, and love pearls.  
Nothing wrong with being a plain Jane with simple and classic tastes, I say. 
  ;-)

There are a thousand and one other reasons why I like Harry the best, and 
when I re-read canon over the upcoming weeks, I'm sure I'll rehash them all.

>And green eyes with dark hair?  I've said this before, but
>if I was his classmate, I would have wanted to go the Yule Ball with
>Harry too.

LOL!  Take a number, sister.  <vbg>  Sacrilege again, I suppose... Harry 
definitely plays second fiddle to Draco in fanon, and takes a backseat to 
Ron amongst certain contingents, but I'm proud to be in the minority on this 
issue.  Although I'm much less concerned about fantasizing over Harry (who 
is rather young right now, you must admit) than I am wanting desperately for 
him to be happy after all is said and done.  More than any other character 
in the series, I want him to live and be well post-Book 7.

As I said before, my attitudes towards the other characters in canon are 
directly proportionate to how much they are needed by Harry, and/or how much 
he wants them around.  The one exception to this is Draco Malfoy--but that 
is entirely Heidi and Cassie's fault, not JKR's.

I identify strongly with Hermione (as do half of the women and men on list), 
and have said that she is my favorite canon character, but when I think 
about it I realize that this is simply not true.  I've consistently liked 
Harry, but only started liking Hermione in PoA--beforehand I saw too many 
uncomfortable echoes of my own childhood to really like her much.  But in 
GoF I loved her, and she is definitely my favorite in fanon, where she's 
reached near-icon status... along with Draco.  ;-)

Also, I tend to be more interested in what's going on with the current 
Hogwarts students over the adults.  Snape and the other staff members, MWPP, 
Lily, the elder Malfoy, etc. just don't interest me as much.  I can truly 
say that my tastes have changed since I entered the fandom... post-GoF I was 
demanding that JKR write a Phantom Menace-like "prequel" to the HP series.  
Now I'd much rather read post-Hogwarts from her pen.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun May 27 06:30:36 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 07:30:36 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gilderoy (was also ..., DADA, Quotes)
References: <20010527010847.28114.qmail@web3604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <015f01c0e676$8a8252e0$953670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 19584

Angela Burgess said:

<<Someone had written about meanings behind the name Gilderoy.  It's already
been pointed out that "roy" is medeival French for "king".  I checked my
memory and then my dictionary, but couldn't find a listing for "gil" or
"jil" (since the letters "g" and "j" are pronounced opposite in the French
alphabet), but the closest thing I could find was "gilet" which meands a
cardigan or waistcoat.  I couldn't find any meaning there, but maybe someone
else can?>>

I think of the first part of the name is derived from the word "gild".
Although gilding is associated with applying gold or a gold tint to
something, another meaning of "to gild" is "to give a specious or false
brilliance to," which certainly fits with Lockhart's high opinion of
himself.

"-roy" could be derived from the French for king, but "-eroy" may be a
twisting of Eros - referring to sexual love.  Both would work, because
Lockhart appears to regard himself as a 'king' among men, and comes across
as a pinup that no woman (or some men) can resist*, but he is making false
claims - gilding - in both departments.  In fact, we can see that he's not
the solid gold he claims; but fool's gold.

"Lockhart" is simpler: Gilderoy's heart is locked (like a gilded cage?) with
only his love for himself inside it.

Well... that's my view on it.  I'm sure even JKR would be startled to learn
just how much research she did on the names of her characters ;-)

Neil

*[speculative moment] - I've always assumed that Gilderoy used an
'Aphrodisia' spell to captivate those around him.  Depending on their
potential to be attracted, this would cause some people to be charmed by him
and others to fall head over heels in love with him.

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From lotte at teepe.com  Sun May 27 02:44:16 2001
From: lotte at teepe.com (Lotte Douze)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 04:44:16 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 916
References: <990933676.2268.31822.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B106A00.6000604@teepe.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19585


> Vicky:  On a totally unrelated topic, I wonder how owls know where to deliver letters. I don't recall people specifically telling them who to give letters to. 

I was wondering about that too. Because how is Hedwig able to find 
Sirius when he is in hiding?

> Also, I've noticed animals can understand human speech in the Potter world. Buckbeak understood Malfoy when he called him a brute, and Hedwig is very expressive of her rage toward Harry when she comes back from her long journey delivering Sirius's letter, only to find him ungrateful. Any thoughts?
> 
Well, maybe this is just animal instinct? I know my cats feel when I'm 
in a bad mood. I think animals are very sensitive, certainly 
hippogriffs, which have to be treated with respect. Then they have to be 
sensitive to feel that respect. I think that's why it seems that the 
understand human speech.

Lotte




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sun May 27 09:02:01 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 10:02:01 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] who the hell is Florence? 
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEOFDLAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <000201c0e68b$b18fae40$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19586

>Wouldn't it be awesome if Florence was the girl Snape loved, and she became
>MRS. LESTRANGE!  Doubly intriguing.

Of course, the two behind the greenhouses could have been the future Mr and
Mrs Lestrange.  I can't see the kisser being either Snape or Sirius.  Sirius
says Bertha Jorkins was a few years ahead of him, and that she was very nosy
but had no brains.  He doesn't sound all that interested in her, or
resentful of her, or even "Golly she got me into so much trouble once when
she sneaked after me and I put Jelly Legs on her" about her.  All we know
about Florence was that the person kissing who kissed Florence  uses hexes
when annoyed. That doesn't necessarily imply he'd a dark wizard: so for that
matter do Ron, Hermione, Harry, Fred and George.  I suspect that the "he"
was a class contemporary of Bertha, simply because she would have found the
gossip rather more interesting to pursue, and that Florence would probably
have been the same age or younger (as you can see from the ball scenes in
GoF the improbability of a teenage boy going out with a girl a few years
older is clearly entrenched in the wizard world).  Florence could have been
a friend of Lily's who went to the bad when she became enthralled by a
charistmatic, Mosley-type Slytherin who convinced her of the importance of
saving Wizardry from muggle infiltration (Exeunt stage left, behoind the
greenhouses, singing "Tomorrow Belongs To Me")

Susan




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sun May 27 09:38:37 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 10:38:37 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs - Why Harry  Lived...
In-Reply-To: <9ep25b+1mca@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901c0e690$ce5db260$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19587

>There wasn't, perhaps, a trial held _in_ Azkaban, with Black
>present?

In GoF Sirius said he hadn't had a trial, and he should know.  Incidently
I'm shocked - shocked - at you, a Scot, referring to a "British" law
applicable over 1000 years ago.  Are we talking English, Welsh, Scottish or
Irish here, or (as I believe is the source of most of the concepts such as
hot pursuit and blackmail and redhanded with which our language is littered)
did it originate in the Debateable Land?

Susan




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun May 27 10:46:15 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 06:46:15 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lord *giggle* Voldemort & Florence
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90BC@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19588

Can't you just see little tommy tinking...hey! I need a name that strikes
fear into the hearts of the populace-magic and muggle alike! Then thinking
"riddler won't work-that is *too* silly...then, during his first rise to
power some dath eater who enoys going through the belongings of those he's
killed finds a Riddler comic from the batman series, brings it back to V's
lair innocently enough and gets AK-ed for his trouble...
--------------------------
Please reply to htandy at carltonfields.com

Confidential:  This e-mail may contain a communication protected by the
attorney-client privilege.  If you do not expect such a communication from
Heidi Howard Tandy, please delete this message without reading it or any
attachment, and then notify htandy at carltonfields.com of this inadvertent
mis-delivery. Thank you.


-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth C <nizbet_noni at hotmail.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat May 26 09:39:55 2001
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lord *giggle* Voldemort & Florence

Real-To:  "Elizabeth C" <nizbet_noni at hotmail.com>

Since reading CoS and discovering that 'Lord Voldemort' is really Tom 
Marvolo Riddle, has anyone else had a quiet snigger to themselves every time

from then on they read the word 'Voldemort'?
It's such a combination of things - like his real name being so boring and 
so stupid at the same time, starting calling himself *Lord* anything at age 
17, changing his name at all (although, now that I think about it...'Lord 
Riddle' just doesn't sound as impressive does it?) - that I just can't take 
him seriously anymore.
I take him being a threat to Harry seriously, and I take the DE's *very* 
seriously, but I just can't take him as a person seriously. When I read the 
words 'Lord Voldemort' I now just think to myself 'yeah, right Tommy. You 
are, like, sooo pathetic' and smirk.

Also, who the hell is Florence? I've been reading the thread trying to 
figure it out, but I have no idea. Is she in canon? If so, could someone 
point me to the book & chapter? I'm lost here!

Lizzy
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From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun May 27 10:54:37 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 10:54:37 -0000
Subject: Vitaserum
In-Reply-To: <20010526194559.55079.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9eqmdd+34ii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19589

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> Why was Snape walking around with a container of Vitaserum in his
> robes anyway?  Does he not consider himself dressed in the morning
> until he selects a potion for daywear?
> 
> "Ah, yes, let's see.  Got the robes, got the wand, what's missing? 
> Oh right, the potion."
> 

Magda! 

*giggle*

Now you've got me thinking he's like one of those shady corner 
salesmen from old WB cartoons:  "Psst! Hey, Bud!"  

I imagine Snape spreading open his robes and having them lined with 
rows upon rows of pockets, each holding a different potion. 

Indigo




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun May 27 10:59:17 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 10:59:17 -0000
Subject: Lily's Sacrifice; Owls and other animals.
In-Reply-To: <OE11sn2Yf0scL9NtDEJ0000311e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9eqmm5+edf6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19590

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
>   Kelley: 
>   When thinking of Lily's sacrifice, I remember this bit from CoS, 
ch 
>   17:  "No one knows why you lost your powers when you attacked 
me," 
>   said Harry abruptly.  "I don't know myself.  But I know why you 
>   couldn't -kill- me.  Because my mother died to save me.  My 
common 
>   ~Muggle-born~ mother," he added, shaking with suppressed 
rage.  "She 
>   stopped you killing me."
> 
>   He learned this from Dumbledore, correct?  So, Lily's sacrifice 
is 
>   what saved Harry's life, and we don't know what exactly caused 
Voldy 
>   to lose his powers.  I've been figuring it's that "something 
about 
>   Harry" we have yet to learn about...
> 
>   Ah. I see your point. Perhaps having Harry's blood now allows 
Voldy to touch Harry without being burned, like Quirrell was, which 
makes Harry a little easier to manipulate.
> 
>   On a totally unrelated topic, I wonder how owls know where to 
deliver letters. I don't recall people specifically telling them who 
to give letters to. 

On the contrary.  

Harry has told Hedgwig in so many words when he wants her to take 
something to Hagrid or to Sirius. 

And I daresay the Weasley owl Errol is told to take the packages to 
Harry. Likewise Pigwidgeon.

Also, I've noticed animals can understand human speech in the Potter 
world. Buckbeak understood Malfoy when he called him a brute, and 
Hedwig is very expressive of her rage toward Harry when she comes 
back from her long journey delivering Sirius's letter, only to find 
him ungrateful. Any thoughts?

The acromantulas can understand and speak human as well. 

But the blast-ended skrewts and flobberworms seem uncommunicative.

Then there's Neville's toad...who either doesn't understand English 
or just has a perverse sense of humour.

Indigo





From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun May 27 11:04:24 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:04:24 -0000
Subject: Evil (was Lockhart) - "V" - West Ham
In-Reply-To: <OE64gm6qv5KYtc5CQ9f000032ff@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9eqmvo+5b0q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19591

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> Evil takes many forms besides cruelty.  Lockhart doesn't take 
pleasure 
> in causing suffering as such, but he does cause it. 
> 
> Along these lines, I'm sure all of us have been mean to others, 
whether it was because we were having a bad day or were young and 
foolish, but I think we look back on those moments with pangs of 
guilt and regret. Lockheart felt no such guilt, which makes him evil.
> 
> Vicky
> 
Actually, you might have unintentionally struck a chord off the point 
I was trying in my clumsy, sleep deprived way, to make.

"I think we look back on those moments with pangs of guilt and 
regret." 

We don't know if Gilderoy Lockhart regretted what he did to the 
wizards and witches he stole from. He may feel bad about it but still 
think the riches "salve his guilt."  Again, self delusion.  

We don't know enough about his past, do we, to know whether he went 
to Hogwarts originally, or Durmstrang, or Beauxbatons -- so we're not 
clear on whether his teaching was of the kind variety or of the "get 
them before they get you" variety. 

And, having been memory wiped after his attempts to mindwipe the 
boys, Gilderoy can't look back on these with guilt or regret now.

Unless, on having his memory restored slowly, he does a 'REGARDING 
HENRY' turnaround, and realizes what a snake in the grass he used to 
be. 

Which would be an interesting development of character.

Indigo





From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun May 27 11:07:58 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:07:58 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him
In-Reply-To: <OE59kGhAj5p1Fjxe0ym000032e2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9eqn6e+6n79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19592

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> > Ah ... but Molly Weasley also believed all the garbage that Rita 
> > Skeeter wrote about Hermione. Remember how badly she treated 
> Hermione 
> > after she read Rita's column?
> 
> This is true too and I was just as shocked to see that, given that 
> Mrs. Weasley has known Hermione for four years now [or at least 
> peripherally through Ron].  
> 
> That's just it. Molly doesn't really know Hermione. But then, I 
would think Molly would know not to trust Rita Skeeter. I mean, after 
all the fraudulent articles on the Ministry's actions...
> 
> Vicky
> 
> 
Okay, granted and accepted she knows little of Hermione beyond "that 
girl with the prominent teeth and hair who rides in with Ron each 
year," and the time she spent visiting over the Quidditch cup.

It just seems she's giving her son too little credit for being able 
to pick friends who aren't bad influences. 

I'm certain, positive, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ron, Fred and 
George go on at length about what a creep Malfoy and his cronies 
are.   So by contrast, if Ron hangs around with Hermione, it seems 
reasonable to draw the conclusion that she's quite different from 
those Ron refuses to hang around with.

Maybe I'm just overanalyzing.

Indigo




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun May 27 11:11:44 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:11:44 -0000
Subject: Molly (was Re: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him)
In-Reply-To: <F216bpG1KiaexdDAO2R00000c53@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9eqndg+fgfj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19593

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Apologies for having lost the original poster here:

> > > Ah ... but Molly Weasley also believed all the garbage that Rita
> > > Skeeter wrote about Hermione. Remember how badly she treated
> >Hermione
> > > after she read Rita's column?
> 
> Vicky responded:

Actually that's my response below [ending in "at least peripherally 
through Ron"]...
> 
> >This is true too and I was just as shocked to see that, given that
> >Mrs. Weasley has known Hermione for four years now [or at least
> >peripherally through Ron].
> >

And Vicky's response begins here: 

> >That's just it. Molly doesn't really know Hermione. But then, I 
would think 
> >Molly would know not to trust Rita Skeeter. I mean, after all the 
> >fraudulent articles on the Ministry's actions...
> >
> 
> 
> LOL!  I brought this up a few months ago, but it was in the middle 
of our 
> last Great Ship Debate, and the list becomes a Very Scary Place 
when the 
> shippers go at it.  (Isn't it nice that we've matured so much since 
then?  
> ;-))

Shippers of all fandoms can get scary.  Love is a potent topic.
> 
> Earlier this week, Heidi did a great post on the difference between 
a news 
> daily like the *Daily Prophet* and a women's mag like *Witch 
Weekly*.  The 
> fact that Molly treated Hermione in such a fashion based on hearsay 
alone 
> made me bothered me in GoF.
> 
> What we do not know is *why* Molly believed the articles, or what 
in the 
> articles specifically led her to question Hermione's character, 
which as any 
> die-hard Hermione fan will tell you, is beyond reproach.  ;-)
> 
> --Ebony
> 

Actually, in GoF, I believe Rita made Hermione out to be playing Krum 
and Harry for lovesick fools, toying with their emotions and breaking 
Harry's heart while he pined away for her.

Mrs. Weasley is very protective of Harry, given that she knows what 
he goes through with the Dursleys.  So she probably got her hackles 
up that someone else was treating him poorly, and didn't stop to 
think.

I guess the Weasley impulsive streak is not solely a trait that goes 
with the red hair.

Indigo







From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun May 27 11:53:38 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 04:53:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly (was Re: Lockhart - Yuck! and the women who love him)
In-Reply-To: <F216bpG1KiaexdDAO2R00000c53@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010527115338.62691.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19594

> >This is true too and I was just as shocked to see that, given that
> >Mrs. Weasley has known Hermione for four years now [or at least
> >peripherally through Ron].
> >
> >That's just it. Molly doesn't really know Hermione. But then, I
> would think 
> >Molly would know not to trust Rita Skeeter. I mean, after all the 
> >fraudulent articles on the Ministry's actions...
> >

Even stranger when you consider that most of the adult wizarding
world seems to know or at least have heard about everyone else. 
Tabloids in a larger, broader Muggle world are understandable but in
such a restricted community as the wizarding one, you would think
that they would be too familiar with Skeeter's subjects to fall for gossip.

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From lumen_dei at freeler.nl  Sun May 27 11:01:55 2001
From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:01:55 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum
References: <9epk50+b03b@eGroups.com> <01fe01c0e64b$e4183020$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> <3B106C4A.5AC27C81@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003201c0e6a4$94c16060$8d7474d5@PoorClares>

No: HPFGUIDX 19595

- Joy - wrote:

> Sorry, I can't find the original message in this thread, but we were
> discussing why Veritaserum wasn't used to clear Sirius.  IMHO, it's
> like a lie detector test.  Some people trust it and think it works,
> some don't.  Or maybe it's not used because it could be abused to
> obtain a confession
> against someone's will (like police brutality), making it difficult to
> trust and hard to prove as admissible evidence.


While I think it best if I avoid all indepth considerations about potions, being only  tea-toddler-- just a quick note on Sirius.  If I understood Sirius correctly when he was talking to the three in his hideout cave, he did not have a trail.  Crouch had him sent directly to Azkaban.  The whole portrait being painted at that point is that he was used as a pawn to satisfy the fear and anger of the wizarding community....  Ah, but I just thought of something else.  Doesn't it say at the end of PoA that Dumbledore himself gave evidence that Black had been the Potter's secret-keeper...  How do those two work together?  Any lawyers in this family?

Maria
Lumen Dei
Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop  -- "Have Wand, Will Wave"
www.geocities.com/lumen_dei


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun May 27 12:12:02 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 05:12:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly 
In-Reply-To: <9eqndg+fgfj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010527121202.49192.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19596

> Mrs. Weasley is very protective of Harry, given that
> she knows what he goes through with the Dursleys. 
So she probably got her hackles 
> up that someone else was treating him poorly, and
> didn't stop to think.
> 
> I guess the Weasley impulsive streak is not solely a
> trait that goes with the red hair.
> 
> Indigo
> 

Except that Molly HAS red hair (both she and Arthur
do).  Gives the kids a double whammy of it.  If one of
them weren't red-haired, the kids might not all be so
violently flame-haired.  (My hair's brown and my
husband is BRIGHT RED but our kids have what looks
like light brown hair with red highlights.  Go figure.
 Maybe that's what Ron's and Hermione's kids might
look like--?)

--Barb 


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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 12:57:49 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 12:57:49 -0000
Subject: Florence - desire for family - obliviate & veritaserum - owls - Capone
Message-ID: <9eqtkd+16jb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19597

SML wrote:

>Wouldn't it be awesome if Florence was the girl Snape loved, and she 
became
>MRS. LESTRANGE!  Doubly intriguing.

Can't be.  Mrs. Lestrange's first name is Amanita.  ;-)

(NB:  that was a FANFIC reference to our own Pippin/foxmoth/Rosemary. 
 Posts asking where the !$*&@# in GF we learn Mrs. Lestrange's first 
name will be met with blank looks!)

Rebecca wrote:

>I'm having a hard time imagining how Harry's desire could lead to
>evil, but it's not hard at all to imagine how Ron's could. 

I think a desire for a family can lead people into real trouble.  Pop 
psychology in the U.S. today suggests that kids who join gangs are 
often looking for the family they lack (I have no idea whether 
thoughtful study supports this, though it makes sense to me).  I'm not 
worried about Harry.  I'm just saying that any desire can be 
exploited.

Rebecca wrote:

>(I really hate Obliviate. Have I said this before?  I think it's 
evil.  The whole thing with Mr.
>Roberts in GoF actually made me feel ill.)

It is such a horrible violation, isn't it?  And imagine--the wizarding 
world may really exist and some of us have encountered it, but we 
don't know it because someone has erased our memories.  

BTW, I feel much the same way about Veritaserum.  I think requiring 
witnesses or the accused to take it is right up there with torture.  
Even if it were strictly controlled--e.g., you can refuse to use it 
without penalty, you cannot be asked any questions that aren't 
strictly relevant to the case, etc.--it is such a horrible thought, to 
be asked questions and be literally unable to lie, withhold part of 
the truth, or refuse to answer.  And questions will inevitably cross 
the line.  No one asked Crouch about Harry's map, but he told about it 
anyway.  If Snape questioned Harry about gillyweed, he might well find 
out that Harry's in touch with Sirius.  The whole thing scares the 
daylights out of me.  I like to think that Dumbledore is so shaken in 
that chapter not only because of the horrible things Crouch has done, 
but also because they're using this disgusting method.

Also, I second (or third or fourth) the lie-detector test parallel.  
LD tests are so dangerous because they are popularly viewed as valid 
and they aren't.  All they can do is measure somatic expressions of 
stress.  The Newsweek article mentioned that sociopaths can go through 
extremely stressful situations without showing any physical signs of 
stress, so that LD tests don't work on them, whereas I know if someone 
asked law-abiding me if I'd held up a convenience store, my heart 
would start thumping.  When I'm accused of something I didn't do, I 
get positively weak.  

Vicky wrote:

>  On a totally unrelated topic, I wonder how owls know where to 
deliver letters.
>I don't recall people specifically telling them who to give letters 
to.

I think they understand English.  We do see people sending owls 
without actually saying aloud, "this is for so-and-so" (e.g. the scene 
where F & G and R & H & H are all in the Owlery--maybe F or G whispers 
it in the owl's ear?) but I think that's just compression.  Or maybe 
they can even read, as people often write the addressee's name on an 
envelope or on the outside of the parchment; or maybe they just know, 
telepathically, whom you're writing to.  How the owls know how to find 
the person is another matter entirely.  That's that old Owl Magic.

I wrote:

>its prisoners often entered sane 
> and left insane (Al Capone e.g.).

CMC wrote:

>In Capone's case, that was more from the effects of tertiary 
>syphyllis than conditions at Alcatraz.

Ah, this is why I love this list.  I can always depend on someone to 
fill in the gaps in my knowledge of 20th Century American Venereal 
Diseased Gangster History.

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 13:01:17 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:01:17 -0000
Subject: Lord *giggle* Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90BC@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9eqtqt+pib9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19598

Heidi wrote:

> Can't you just see little tommy 

"Little Tommy" . . . is anyone else concerned that Heidi's next fanfic 
project will be to rehabilitate Voldemort?

j/k, Heidi,
Amy Z




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 13:49:57 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:49:57 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly
Message-ID: <F140EhKAUOniOOyG1Wk00006334@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19599

Indigo:
> > Mrs. Weasley is very protective of Harry, given that
> > she knows what he goes through with the Dursleys.
>So she probably got her hackles
> > up that someone else was treating him poorly, and
> > didn't stop to think.
> >
> > I guess the Weasley impulsive streak is not solely a
> > trait that goes with the red hair.
> >
> > Indigo
> >

Barb:
>Except that Molly HAS red hair (both she and Arthur
>do).  Gives the kids a double whammy of it.  If one of
>them weren't red-haired, the kids might not all be so
>violently flame-haired.  (My hair's brown and my
>husband is BRIGHT RED but our kids have what looks
>like light brown hair with red highlights.  Go figure.
>  Maybe that's what Ron's and Hermione's kids might
>look like--?)
>

This is assuming, of course, that Ron and Hermione actually grow up and have 
kids together.  <vbeg>  Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Anyway, aren't there several genes that determine hair color and texture, 
anyway?  I know lots of kids who have hair that is unlike either parent's.

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

Come join us in Paradise!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise

Visit Schnoogle.com:
http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/

"Be not amazed, beloved, if sometimes my song grows dark...
Perhaps, beloved, I shall fall tomorrow on a restless earth
Lamenting your sinking eyes, and the dark tom-tom of the
    mortars below.
And you will weep for the twilight, for the glowing voice
That sang your black beauty."

--Leopold Sedar Senghor, Negritude movement, 1963

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun May 27 16:09:53 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:09:53 -0000
Subject: Molly
In-Reply-To: <F140EhKAUOniOOyG1Wk00006334@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9er8sh+rh0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19600

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink at h...> 
wrote:
> Indigo:
> > > Mrs. Weasley is very protective of Harry, given that
> > > she knows what he goes through with the Dursleys.
> >So she probably got her hackles
> > > up that someone else was treating him poorly, and
> > > didn't stop to think.
> > >
> > > I guess the Weasley impulsive streak is not solely a
> > > trait that goes with the red hair.
> > >
> > > Indigo
> > >
> 
> Barb:
> >Except that Molly HAS red hair (both she and Arthur
> >do).  Gives the kids a double whammy of it.  If one of
> >them weren't red-haired, the kids might not all be so
> >violently flame-haired.  (My hair's brown and my
> >husband is BRIGHT RED but our kids have what looks
> >like light brown hair with red highlights.  Go figure.
> >  Maybe that's what Ron's and Hermione's kids might
> >look like--?)
> >
> 
> This is assuming, of course, that Ron and Hermione actually grow up 
and have 
> kids together.  <vbeg>  Sorry, just couldn't resist.
> 
> Anyway, aren't there several genes that determine hair color and 
texture, 
> anyway?  I know lots of kids who have hair that is unlike either 
parent's.
> 
> --Ebony
> 
> <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
> Ebony AKA AngieJ
> ebonyink at h...

::clutches heart::

I knew that!  I knew Molly's hair was really red!

The preview from the movie is corrupting my mind!

*wail*

Indigo




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun May 27 18:09:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 18:09:28 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Molly_=96_Daily_Prophet_=96_Lockhart_=96_Sirius=92s_non-trial?=
Message-ID: <9erfso+m4ne@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19601

Ebony wrote:

>Earlier this week, Heidi did a great post on the difference between 
a >news
>daily like the *Daily Prophet* and a women's mag like *Witch 
Weekly*.  >The
>fact that Molly treated Hermione in such a fashion based on hearsay 
>alone
>made me bothered me in GoF.

Unfortunately, I think Molly's in good, or at least voluminous, 
company with this one.  Most people know that tabloids and such are 
gossip and lies, and they might even say "oh, that rag, I don't 
believe a word it says," but they still read them and are affected by 
what they say.  There's a strong tendency to believe something just 
because it's in print, even if the previous week the same writer in 
the same publication wrote things you knew were lies.  There must be 
a name for this phenomenon, or perhaps one of our Latin scholars 
could coin one.  (And a spell to counteract it would be good too, 
while you're at it.) 

Also, the issue has come up about how Rita Skeeter could be writing 
for the Prophet.  That assumes that the DP is like the Times (New 
York, LA, London, take your pick), but perhaps it's more like the NY 
Daily News-?a tabloid that is highly unreliable and sensationalistic 
but that is still the daily source of "straight news" for its 
readership.  I gather there are many such in London . . . or does 
nobody take them seriously?

Neil wrote:

>I've always assumed that Gilderoy used an 'Aphrodisia' spell to 
>captivate those around him. 

Chalk another one up for Harry.  He's impervious
or maybe an excess 
of annoying behavior erases the effect.

Maria wrote:

>The whole portrait being painted at that point is that he was used 
as a >pawn to satisfy the fear and anger of the wizarding 
community....  Ah, >but I just thought of something else. 
>Doesn't it say at the end of PoA that Dumbledore himself gave 
evidence >that
>Black had been the Potter's secret-keeper...  How do those two work 
>together? 

I agree with your pawn portrait.  As someone recently said, the reign 
of terror was over at that point.  However, it was only just, and 
while Dedalus Diggle and Co. may have been celebrating, I bet some 
more cautious minds at the MOM were making sure to keep after Death 
Eaters with the same energy they'd been using before Voldemort fell.  
There's also the rage that Dumbledore describes in the prosecution of 
the Longbottoms' assailants-?people thought the worst was over and 
then this happened.  I can imagine that a similar rage would prevail 
in putting away the person responsible for killing the Potters.  At 
the time, people thought of them as Voldemort's last victims, and the 
fact that V. fell immediately afterwards would do nothing to incline 
the wizarding world toward mercy for Sirius.  As much as anyone even 
knows about him, that is.  Fudge does say that that part of the story 
isn't widely known.

Re: Dumbledore's testimony:  I thought perhaps Dumbledore was just 
quietly called in by Magical Law Enforcement, who wanted to pack 
Sirius straight off to Azkaban but also wanted to check their facts 
behind the scenes.  He said, "'Fraid so, I'd never have thought it of 
Sirius, but there's no denying he was their Secret Keeper," and they 
said, "Great, that's all we need to know," slam (door), splash (key 
into sea).

Amy Z




From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com  Sun May 27 18:50:11 2001
From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 18:50:11 -0000
Subject: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010527000225.02693a40@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9eri93+peed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19602

Least-loved character?

Rita Skeeter. Unquestionably.

After spending 22 years, 10 months and 11 days in the newspaper 
business, I've heard all kinds of disparating remarks about "the 
press." Some remarks even from my own friends.

Let's just say that in dealing with the common, ordinary, day-to-day 
hometown newspaper, you generally won't find people like that. Yes, 
there are exceptions. But for the most part, the reporters are doing 
their jobs for the love of the business, i.e. providing necessary 
information to the public. Trust me, they're not in it for the 
glamor, the glory, the pay or the working conditions. I could tell 
you stories . . .   :-)

Anyway, I try not to take it all too seriously, but sometimes it 
strikes close to home and I vent. Now that I've vented, it's back to 
my <i>willing suspension of disbelief." 

Belle




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Sun May 27 19:02:46 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:02:46 -0000
Subject: Snape's redemption/Quest for glory? (was Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the...) 
In-Reply-To: <003201c0e625$bb759e80$58bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9erj0m+t3mq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19603

Rebecca wrote:

>> Some people might think Snape's greatest desire is for personal 
glory, like Ron's -- but I think this is a red herring, like the 
rumour that Snape wants the DADA job.  I think Snape's greatest 
desire is to redeem himself, frankly:  to somehow atone for the 
things he did as a Death Eater.  He seems to be obsessed with finding 
and stopping evildoers, or those he perceives to be evildoers 
(Quirrell in PS/SS, Sirius in PoA), and the most passionate we've 
ever seen him was when he thought Sirius, that evil murderer, and 
Remus, that vicious killer werewolf, were in league with each other 
and had confunded Harry, Ron and Hermione into helping them.  We've 
already seen how Snape's zeal to hunt down evildoers can actually 
lead him to judge people too harshly and hastily and not give them a 
chance.<<

I do agree that Snape's prime motivator is his own personal guilt for 
what he did as a DE. I think that he definitely wants to make peace-- 
with himself more than others, IMO-- for the kinds of acts he must 
have done as a servant of Voldemort. Thus, he zealously seeks out to 
destroy the evil/evildoers that is/are around him. I think this was 
probably what led him to take up spying for Dumbledore in the first 
place; the amazing amount of fresh guilt and self-loathing that he 
must have felt has obviously had a great toll on his life, past and 
present. In the Shrieking Shack, he admits to his adamant desire 
to "catch" Black; imagine his disappointment (with himself as much as 
with Harry) that he was unable to succeed in bringing Sirius 
to "justice", and therefore also failed in any personal redemptive 
attempt. Explains his crazed outburst, I'd say. Actually, Harry has 
thwarted him in almost any redemptive/evil-busting opportunities 
since Harry came to Hogwarts: Harry is the hero in stopping Quirrell, 
Harry valiantly faces Riddle in the CoS when the teachers are 
seemingly powerless, and Harry (as Snape guesses) is the one who 
helps Sirius escape. Plus, if Harry was somehow involved in a 
redemptive attempt of Snape's past (i.e., if Snape was the spy who 
warned about Voldemort's plans for the Potters', and Harry is a 
constant reminder of how Snape somehow failed his parents (and 
himself) when Voldemort killed them anyway) then that kind of sheds a 
different light on the "I hate Harry Potter with a passion" aspect of 
Snape's character.

However... on to personal glory...

Rebecca believes it to be a red herring. But how much of it *is* red 
herring? As a Slytherin, Snape should technically be characterized by 
shrewdness, (check) cunning, (check) and ambition (check). Now, about 
that ambition: where does the quest for personal glory come into 
play? Does Snape's ambitious quality include a desire for a bit of 
limelight and not just personal relief through evil-busting? 
How "hard" did the loss of the Order of Merlin really hit Snape?

I don't think that Snape's rumoured/assumed search for glory is 
completely a red herring of JKR's invention. I think there is some 
truth to it. I think that Snape once probably had a greater sense of 
desire for his own personal gains and recognition; it's probably what 
led him to join the DEs. However, I also believe that whatever led 
him to disban from Voldemort also probably humbled him in a terrible 
way. I imagine he lost much of the desire for glory and replaced it 
with a desire to redeem his life. But is this to say that he 
completely abandoned any of his earlier quest? Is it possible to 
entirely remove such a quality from one's personality? I don't think 
so, not entirely, although it's definitely not near the top of 
his "motivators" list. While the loss of his possible redemption 
through Sirius's capture hit him the hardest of all, I think that the 
loss of Order of Merlin added a good bit of insult to injury.

Lyda




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun May 27 19:44:52 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:44:52 -0000
Subject: Gilderoy, Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <015f01c0e676$8a8252e0$953670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9erlfk+sd3o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19604

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Angela Burgess said:
> 
> <<Someone had written about meanings behind the name Gilderoy.  It's 
already
> been pointed out that "roy" is medeival French for "king".  I 
checked my
> memory and then my dictionary, but couldn't find a listing for "gil" 
or
> "jil" (since the letters "g" and "j" are pronounced opposite in the 
French
> alphabet), but the closest thing I could find was "gilet" which 
meands a
> cardigan or waistcoat.  I couldn't find any meaning there, but maybe 
someone
> else can?>>
> 
> I think of the first part of the name is derived from the word 
"gild".
> Although gilding is associated with applying gold or a gold tint to
> something, another meaning of "to gild" is "to give a specious or 
false
> brilliance to," which certainly fits with Lockhart's high opinion of
> himself.
> 
> "-roy" could be derived from the French for king, but "-eroy" may be 
a
> twisting of Eros - referring to sexual love.  Both would work, 
because
> Lockhart appears to regard himself as a 'king' among men, and comes 
across
> as a pinup that no woman (or some men) can resist*, but he is making 
false
> claims - gilding - in both departments.  In fact, we can see that 
he's not
> the solid gold he claims; but fool's gold.
> 
> "Lockhart" is simpler: Gilderoy's heart is locked (like a gilded 
cage?) with
> only his love for himself inside it.
> 
> Well... that's my view on it.  I'm sure even JKR would be startled 
to learn
> just how much research she did on the names of her characters ;-)
> 

Demelza posted a link to a Scottish folk song called "Gilderoy". 
Here's one origin of the name according to that site.
"In The Annals of Scotland(1797), Lord Hailes notes there was also an 
Irish chief, Gilrodh, who raided Scotland in 1233. He speculates that
the name Gilderoy is a corruption of the Irish Gilruadh, which means
red-haired lad." Either way, I think Rowling choose that name for the 
character because it denotes an air of arrogance and pretention.

About Snape carrying Veritaserum in his cape, I got the impression 
that Snape had just produced the Veritaserum. Knowing that his office 
was broken into and items were taken, he was probably carrying it on 
his person for safe keeping. 

Milz




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun May 27 21:08:48 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:08:48 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Molly_=96_Daily_Prophet_=96_Lockhart_=96_Sirius=92s_non-trial?=
In-Reply-To: <9erfso+m4ne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9erqd0+4e2c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19605

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, I think Molly's in good, or at least voluminous, 
> company with this one.  Most people know that tabloids and such are 
> gossip and lies, and they might even say "oh, that rag, I don't 
> believe a word it says," but they still read them and are affected 
by 
> what they say.  There's a strong tendency to believe something just 
> because it's in print, even if the previous week the same writer in 
> the same publication wrote things you knew were lies.  There must be 
> a name for this phenomenon, or perhaps one of our Latin scholars 
> could coin one.  (And a spell to counteract it would be good too, 
> while you're at it.)>

I definitely agree with you, Amy, and was thinking the same thing.  
Once something has been printed, the damage is often done, whether or 
not the information is true or nothin' but lies.  On a smaller scale, 
gossip does the same thing, and boy, does that start some vicious 
fights with my students! 

When it comes to Harry and his world, Harry is already a target - 
everyone seems to have an opinion about him because he is so well 
known.  He is a bit of mystery to many, and in CoS, he was ostracized 
pretty quickly, first for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, 
and then for speaking Parseltongue, and being misunderstood with his 
intentions for speaking it.  People are already suspicious of him, 
making it that much easier for Rita Skeeter to take a bit of 
information and run with it, thus turning Harry into even more of a 
media sensations.
> 
> Also, the issue has come up about how Rita Skeeter could be writing 
> for the Prophet.  That assumes that the DP is like the Times (New 
> York, LA, London, take your pick), but perhaps it's more like the NY 
> Daily News-?a tabloid that is highly unreliable and sensationalistic 
> but that is still the daily source of "straight news" for its 
> readership.

Hmmm... I'd say The NY Post was more tabloid-ish.  The Daily News is a 
step above, with its focus being primarily local news (even though 
their articles on NYC teachers make me livid).  I actually don't mind 
The Daily News too much.

--jenny from ravenclaw*******************************




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sun May 27 22:49:21 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:49:21 -0000
Subject: Gilderoy (was also ..., DADA, Quotes)
In-Reply-To: <015f01c0e676$8a8252e0$953670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9es09h+6s0f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19606

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

> *[speculative moment] - I've always assumed that Gilderoy used an
> 'Aphrodisia' spell to captivate those around him.  Depending on
> their potential to be attracted, this would cause some people to be
> charmed by him and others to fall head over heels in love with him.

I swear someone just mentioned stuff called Viritaserum, which logically -

Vitaserum, too, which perhaps protects against Avra Kedavra?
(snip digression on balanced diet, Lucky Charms, www.generalmills.com)

Btw, http://google.com/ scares me:

'Your search - "avra kedevra" - did not match any documents. 
Did you mean: "avra kedavra"?'

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sun May 27 22:53:01 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:53:01 -0000
Subject: Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <NFBBJCDBKKPIKOBACKLBKEADCFAA.matt.dawdy@gpsys-inc.com>
Message-ID: <9es0gd+6saf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19607

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Matthew Dawdy" <matt.dawdy at g...> wrote:
> There are a few people on this list who have brought up the possibility that
> veritaserum is like a lie detector test -- not allowable in a court of law.
> Something to support that is that is MIGHT be like the Imperius Curse --
> some people can resist it -- who knows, maybe it acts just like the IC?

Suppose you swallowed a Portkey, then you could drink Veritaserum
(Polygraph Potion) without it actually reaching your stomach -
and then it wouldn't affect you?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Sun May 27 23:54:49 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 23:54:49 -0000
Subject: caught red-handed
In-Reply-To: <000901c0e690$ce5db260$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9es449+5kl3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19608

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> >There wasn't, perhaps, a trial held _in_ Azkaban, with Black
> >present?
> 
> In GoF Sirius said he hadn't had a trial, and he should know.  

> Incidently
> I'm shocked - shocked - at you, a Scot, referring to a "British" law
> applicable over 1000 years ago.  Are we talking English, Welsh,
> Scottish or Irish here, or (as I believe is the source of most of
> the concepts such as hot pursuit and blackmail and redhanded with
> which our language is littered) did it originate in the Debateable
> Land?

Being lazy about something I heard about on TV or radio once,
I think in the context of "This was what we had before we had
jury trials" (English in particular).  You seem to have a handle
on the fact that, far enough back, the national identities and
boundaries weren't as today.  At least it doesn't seem to be
Norse...

A little Web research by me now suggests it applied in both
Scotland and England, e.g. http://www.word-detective.com/back-k2.html
- the "modern English" phrase representing a legal concept that
predates modern English.

Also relevant:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/560-975dooms.html
http://www.burkes-landed-gentry.com/blg/19thEd-Farewell.asp
http://www.stanford.edu/group/CollegeBowl/Archive/byu96/wichita_st2.txt
http://orb.rhodes.edu/encyclop/culture/towns/glossary.html

In Ireland, at around the same time, cursory reading indicates
"red-handed" wasn't a judgment so much as a lifestyle ;-)

Otherwise, the general opinion seems to be that in the old
(_very_ old) days, if the posse caught you actually performing
a criminal act, you'd be deemed convicted at once, without
legal right to a court trial.  I think this may now apply only
if you commit a crime in the court room itself, such as
springing from the dock to assault the judge - some such cases
have made news here quite recently.

Wizard law, since wizard society was made separate from Muggles',
perhaps has more closely retained this legal principle, rather than
trial by judge and/or jury in court, and, in particular, allows the
executive (Minister of Magic himself?) to make judicial decisions -
something which modern constitutions tend to deem improper.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 00:24:08 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:24:08 -0000
Subject: Phoenixes Wand Cores
In-Reply-To: <9eo2dj+beac@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9es5r8+im4s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19609

Mags wrote: 
"Phoenixes have got to be pretty rare birds, and if, like 
Fawkes, they only give one or two feathers for use as wand 
cores, just how many people DO have phoenix tail-feathers 
in their wands?  JKR hasn't told us what was in Lily and 
James' wands, so I'm prepared to bet they both had phoenix 
feathers too.  And could this be an explanation for the 
mysterious 'Order of the Phoenix'."


I do not recall this being mentioned this way. 
If the Order has relation to wand cores then Tom Riddle 
would qualify. Does Dumbledore have a Phoenix core? 
That opens a big can. Thanks, I like worms. 

Bugg 








From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Mon May 28 01:14:39 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:14:39 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Phoenixes Wand Cores
References: <9es5r8+im4s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE43kZIhTrBoe2U8QVj00003752@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19610

Mags:
JKR hasn't told us what was in Lily and 
James' wands, so I'm prepared to bet they both had phoenix 
feathers too.  


Well, it can't be automatically assumed that children automatically have the same wand cores as their parents, just like how children don't necessarily get sorted into the same houses as their parents.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Mon May 28 01:19:18 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:19:18 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly
References: <20010527121202.49192.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE47PUKIYs5CRTYBK1C00003684@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19611

Barb:
Maybe that's what Ron's and Hermione's kids might
look like--?)


On a related note, what percentage would their children have of being wizarding/Muggle? Hermione is a witch born to Muggles, so does this mean her genes would count as Muggle, and Ron's as wizarding, or doesHermione's genes count as wizarding, since she's a witch? I would assume her genes would be Muggle, since her parents were.

Vicky


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From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 28 01:17:24 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:17:24 -0000
Subject: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9eri93+peed@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9es8v4+r21h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19612

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote:
> Least-loved character?
> 
> Rita Skeeter. Unquestionably.
> 
> After spending 22 years, 10 months and 11 days in the newspaper 
> business, I've heard all kinds of disparating remarks about "the 
> press." Some remarks even from my own friends.
> 
> Let's just say that in dealing with the common, ordinary,
day-to-day 
> hometown newspaper, you generally won't find people like that. Yes, 
> there are exceptions. But for the most part, the reporters are
doing 
> their jobs for the love of the business, i.e. providing necessary 
> information to the public. Trust me, they're not in it for the 
> glamor, the glory, the pay or the working conditions. I could tell 
> you stories . . .   :-)
> 
> Anyway, I try not to take it all too seriously, but sometimes it 
> strikes close to home and I vent. Now that I've vented, it's back
to 
> my <i>willing suspension of disbelief." 

The British experience seems to differ.  The average citizen has
very little to do with the press, as a rule, but those who are
involved tend to regret it.  Our law on libel is effective only if
you're rich, I think.

On a personal note, I was slightly annoyed that a local paper once
misreported a school prize that I'd won; of coures it wouldn't have
mattered if they'd skipped it entirely - I don't remember the details
myself now - but it seemed it particularly didn't matter to the paper
whether they had the facts straight or not.

The husband of one of my sisters had a more serious problem once -
the press were interested in the place where he worked, they
interviewed and misquoted him, and he was obliged to defend himself
against a false charge of stirring up trouble by lying about the
organisation.

Another time, the same sister and her husband were acquainted with
someone who later got "stitched up", as we say, in the society
scandal columns.

Various British newspapers also published Hitler's diaries (later
revealed as forgeries), campaigned against the foolish idea that
a virus and not a liberal lifestyle caused AIDS, and announced
AIDS' total and universal cure (by extracting and gently heating
all of a patient's blood to remove the virus).  On reflection,
these sins were all in Sunday editions, which are particularly
bad here.

Also, our Daily Record apparently reported recently "Harry Potter
Author to Wed", but I only noticed this on their news-stand posters
which now seem to be changed once a week.

Clinging on-topic by fingernails, I mentioned that JKR claimed to
have invented Rita Skeeter before meeting her in person, but she
surely has now.

I'd also cite www.private-eye.co.uk but it looks as though they
keep the really hot stuff offline.

British people who complain about this sort of thing online are quite
likely to quote Humbert Wolfe:

"You cannot hope to bribe or twist,
Thank God, the British journalist.
But, seeing what the man will do
Unbribed, there's no occasion to."

I found one vindictive Web page with this as "American journalist",
but that's cheating.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon May 28 01:29:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:29:16 -0000
Subject: Daily Prophet
In-Reply-To: <9erqd0+4e2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9es9lc+bc2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19613

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
 
> Hmmm... I'd say The NY Post was more tabloid-ish.  The Daily News is 
a 
> step above, with its focus being primarily local news (even though 
> their articles on NYC teachers make me livid).  I actually don't 
mind 
> The Daily News too much.

Er, I think I was thinking of the Post.  My apologies to the Daily 
News.  Except for whatever bad things they're saying about NYC 
teachers, of course.

Amy Z




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 01:29:22 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 18:29:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly
In-Reply-To: <OE47PUKIYs5CRTYBK1C00003684@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010528012922.62711.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19614


--- Vicky Ra <andromache815 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Barb:
> Maybe that's what Ron's and Hermione's kids might
> look like--?)
> 
> On a related note, what percentage would their
> children have of being wizarding/Muggle? Hermione is
> a witch born to Muggles, so does this mean her genes
> would count as Muggle, and Ron's as wizarding, or
> does Hermione's genes count as wizarding, since
she's
> a witch? I would assume her genes would be Muggle,
> since her parents were.
> 
> Vicky

Harry is considered to be wizard-born and
Muggle-raised.  His mother is Muggle-born, like
Hermione, but she is magical.  His father, from what
I've gathered from the books, is pureblood.  Harry is
not called by the derogatory term 'Mudblood' because
he had two magical parents.  It's possible that
students with one magical parent and one Muggle parent
(non-magical) may be called half-bloods or something
like that.  I don't recall seeing anything of the sort
in the book, though.  (Am I not observant enough?  Did
anyone else catch this?)

--Barb 

P.S. It is pointed out by Neville himself that,
although pureblood, he is practically a Squib. 
However, I like the idea someone came up with that he
might have had a memory charm performed on him.
 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon May 28 02:36:54 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:36:54 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sirius=92s?= non-trial; Veritaserum; Favorite Characters
References: <9erfso+m4ne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B11B9C6.876BE5CE@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19615

Hi all --

I've got a full in-box of HP posts I wanted to respond to -- apologies
if some of this is relatively old hat to the rest of you (Elizabeth has
...er .... not been sleeping much lately hence my absence from the
computer).

SIRIUS -- TRIAL & EVIDENCE (VERITASERUM)

Amy Z wrote:

> Re: Dumbledore's testimony:  I thought perhaps Dumbledore was just
> quietly called in by Magical Law Enforcement, who wanted to pack
> Sirius straight off to Azkaban but also wanted to check their facts
> behind the scenes.  He said, "'Fraid so, I'd never have thought it of
> Sirius, but there's no denying he was their Secret Keeper," and they
> said, "Great, that's all we need to know," slam (door), splash (key
> into sea).

Yes, that's more or less the take that Carole & I gave it in our fanfic
(A Sirius Affair) -- shameless self-promotion.  <g>  Siriously, yes -- I
do think there was some sort of evidentiary proceeding in which
Dumbledore would have given evidence of Sirius' status as the Potters'
Secret-Keeper.  It just didn't rise to the level of an actual trial.

Veritaserum -- For our fanfic, we decided that it's likely that
veritaserum is regarded with some skepticism as far as evidence in a
court of law.  I like Amanda's thoughts that maybe it's relativey rare
and perhaps even is only available in small quantities from the most
skilled potions masters.  I do hope JKR will eventually address the
issue of veritaserum head-on in a later book.  Does it reveal subjective
truth or objective truth?  When was it invented/discovered/concocted the
first time?  Why wasn't it used to clear Sirius? Why couldn't Voldy have
used it to be sure none of his Death Eaters were spies?  There are
multiple potential plot holes that the introduction of veritaserum
raises.  I hope she'll address them!

FAVORITE CHARACTERS:

Ebony wrote:


> There are a thousand and one other reasons why I like Harry the best, and
> when I re-read canon over the upcoming weeks, I'm sure I'll rehash them all.
>
> >And green eyes with dark hair?  I've said this before, but
> >if I was his classmate, I would have wanted to go the Yule Ball with
> >Harry too.
>
> LOL!  Take a number, sister.    Sacrilege again, I suppose... Harry
> definitely plays second fiddle to Draco in fanon, and takes a backseat to
> Ron amongst certain contingents, but I'm proud to be in the minority on this
> issue.
>
Ebony and I seem to be in the minority on many issues, eh?  I too am a
huge Harry fan!  Canon Harry *and* fanon Harry.  I too have said again &
again how Hermione is my favorite character of all, but in actuality, it
may be more accurate to say that Hermione is my favorite character of
them all, excepting Harry.  How can you not *love* the hero of the
stories?  Especially when he's such a loveable hero.  <g>

I'm really enjoying the Nature of Evil thread too.  I've just been
informed that the baby is up ... ready for her bath & a late night
snack.  So, my thoughts on that thread will need to wait until tomorrow!

Happy Memorial Day to the Americans!

Penny



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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May 28 04:00:10 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:00:10 -0700
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[HPforGrownups]_Molly_=96_Daily_Prophet_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=96?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Lockhart_=96_Sirius=92s_non-trial?=
In-Reply-To: <9erfso+m4ne@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527205603.031b5160@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19616

At 06:09 PM 5/27/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Also, the issue has come up about how Rita Skeeter could be writing
>for the Prophet.  That assumes that the DP is like the Times (New
>York, LA, London, take your pick), but perhaps it's more like the NY
>Daily News-?a tabloid that is highly unreliable and sensationalistic
>but that is still the daily source of "straight news" for its
>readership.  I gather there are many such in London . . . or does
>nobody take them seriously?

Could the _Prophet_ be like the _Sun_, which I've heard was formerly
a respectable  journal but has gradually deteriorated into a tabloid?
(UK List members feel free to correct me if I've got my History of
British Muggle Journalism wrong...)



                         -- Dave




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon May 28 04:08:50 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:08:50 -0000
Subject: Memories (a Lockhart filk)
Message-ID: <9esj0i+odda@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19617

Memories (from CoS, Chap. 16)

(To the tune of Memory, from Lloyd Webber' Cats)

Dedicated to Amber

(THE SCENE: The tunnel to the Chamber of Secrets. LOCKHART reveals to 
Harry and Ron the secret of his success). 

LOCKHART:
Memories, here's the way that I moonlight
I oft steal them from wizards 
Far more gifted than me
They've great talent, but don't know how to market themselves
So I swipe their memories

Banished banshees, gadding ghouls, 
Werewolves besieging a village
I have done nothing of what I have claimed to 
It's the result of pillage

Spotlight, I rejoice in your beacon
When I've written a new book
And it's time to cash in
When the crowd comes, "The Prophet" sends a critic or two 
Then more new hype will begin 

(To Harry and Ron)

Dead right, I can't let you recall
What I've been parading
I raise Ron's wand to erase your psyches

(Ron's spellotaped wand explodes in a shower of sparks)

But ? boom! ? my mind's now fading

Who's me? It's so suddenly left me!	
All astray is my memory
Was I magical once?
As your professor, I really can't have been any good
For I must have been a dunce
..

 - CMC







From angela_burgess at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 04:09:25 2001
From: angela_burgess at yahoo.com (angela_burgess at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:09:25 -0000
Subject: Molly, Owls and Gilderoy
Message-ID: <9esj1l+t7i1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19618

Please forgive me...I'm using a new browser and am having trouble 
copying and pasting sections, so I can't quote exactly.

Indigo was talking about Mrs. Weasly trusting Ron regarding Hermione 
and being able to make his own friends.  However, I've noticed that 
many normally sane, non-judgemental parents lose their grip on 
reality when it comes to their children.  Mrs. Weasly wouldn't be the 
first mother to decide a girl is bad for one of her sons based solely 
on hear-say, even though it contradicts everything she knows about 
the girl.

Amy Z. said something about owls understanding English.  My question 
is: wouldn't they need to know more than just English?  Or do you 
think there might be different nationalities of owls, like French 
owls and Russian owls?  And what about those tropical birds that 
Sirius is using?  Do they speak English?  I know that most domestic 
animals "understand" the language of the country they live in.  Like, 
my dog [as wonderfully smart as he is =)] wouldn't be able to go to 
France and understand when someone other than me told him to sit.

Finally, Robert, I liked your take on mixing the languages for 
Gilderoy's name, epsecially the second definition of "gild", about 
the fake surface.  It seems especially appropriate considering what 
we know about "The Almighty Gilderoy".  

-Angela: who is really glad she switched to Digest Form from Web View 
since these have proved to be VERY interesting conversations!




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon May 28 04:43:05 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:43:05 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <003201c0e625$bb759e80$58bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9esl0p+s9mh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19619


> 
> Which raises an interesting question in my mind.  We know, from the 
Mirror
> of Erised, that Harry's deepest desire is to have a real and loving 
family
> around him, and Ron's deepest desire is to be a "star" and set 
himself apart
> from his brothers.  Okay, so Ron's more likely to get in trouble 
than
> Harry -- I'm having a hard time imagining how Harry's desire could 
lead to
> evil, but it's not hard at all to imagine how Ron's could.  (This 
is NOT to
> say I expect Ron to go that route -- as I've said here before, I 
love Ron
> and I think he'll be just fine.)  But I wonder what the deepest 
desires of
> the other Hogwarts crew -- teachers and students -- might be and 
how they
> might be twisted to evil if taken to excess.
> 
> Hermione's greatest desire, I think, would be to know everything.  
But
> sometimes people with an insatiable desire for learning aren't 
always too
> discriminating about what they learn or where they learn it.  I 
don't really
> see Hermione going this route, but she *could* get sucked into dark 
magic if
> she doesn't watch herself.
> 


I would suggest that Ron and Harry's deepest desires are their 
desires at age 14 (sorry if I'm not being very accurate).
I would suggest that what we want as adolescents is oftentimes not 
what we want as adults OR we believe deeply that we want something 
but later figure out we don't.

We can interpret Ron's deepest desire as becoming a "star". OR we can 
interpret his deepest desire to distinguish himself in a positive way.
He might decide to be the best (the most moral, the most courageous, 
the most amazing) of all his siblings. OR,his desire might be to 
distinguish himself by any means and he might decide to "turn to the 
dark side" and distinguish himself by his power over others.
He could go either way. I am betting on positive choices based on my 
respect for Arthur and Molly Weasley and my feelings that all their 
children will do okay. But that's pure speculation and I could be 
wrong.

We can interpret Harry's desire as wanting a real and loving family 
around him. Or, we could interpret it as wanting to belong and fit in 
somewhere. The latter could easily lead him to making bad choices 
that resulted in evil. 

Susan








From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon May 28 04:46:07 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:46:07 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <003201c0e625$bb759e80$58bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9esl6f+66l8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19620

> 
.
> 
> Hermione's greatest desire, I think, would be to know everything.  
But
> sometimes people with an insatiable desire for learning aren't 
always too
> discriminating about what they learn or where they learn it.  I 
don't really
> see Hermione going this route, but she *could* get sucked into dark 
magic if
> she doesn't watch herself.
> 

Here, I would respectfully disagree. Hermione is very clear. She 
tells Harry that he is a great wizard not because he does well on 
tests or knows things but because he is courageous and heroic.

She chose to be in Gryffindor, not Ravenclaw, and I would suggest 
that is because she values valor and integrity more than wisdom.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon May 28 04:48:56 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:48:56 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <003201c0e625$bb759e80$58bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9eslbo+66mn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19621

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
> > So what characterisics do V. and Lockhart share? The most obvious 
is
> > greed. People often misunderstand the Bible passage that says 
money
> > is the root of all evil.
> 

I suggest that Voldemort and Lockhart share the need to have what 
they want when they want it, and the decision to do whatever they 
need to do to get it. That in my opinion is the true nature of evil.

I agree with whoever said that the memory erasing charm is evil.
I'm afraid I think that wizards do see muggles as sub-human, 
otherwise they would never think of erasing their memories, a crime 
against the integrity of another person equal to obliterating their 
identity.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon May 28 04:53:17 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:53:17 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <003201c0e625$bb759e80$58bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9esljt+9d3u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19622

> Some people might think Snape's greatest desire is for personal 
glory, like
> Ron's -- but I think this is a red herring, like the rumour that 
Snape wants
> the DADA job.  I think Snape's greatest desire is to redeem himself,
> frankly:  to somehow atone for the things he did as a Death Eater.  
He seems
> to be obsessed with finding and stopping evildoers, or those he 
perceives to
> be evildoers (Quirrell in PS/SS, Sirius in PoA), and the most 
passionate
> we've ever seen him was when he thought Sirius, that evil murderer, 
and
> Remus, that vicious killer werewolf, were in league with each other 
and had
> confunded Harry, Ron and Hermione into helping them.  We've already 
seen how
> Snape's zeal to hunt down evildoers can actually lead him to judge 
people
> too harshly and hastily and not give them a chance.
> 
> Any more thoughts?
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner
> rebeccaj at p...
> http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj


Rebecca, thanks so much for posting!

Hmmmm..Snape is then like Inspector Javert?

I really don't think Snape's greatest desire is to redeem himself.
I cannot figure Snape out. I can understand that he became a Death 
Eater and then changed/transformed. But I cannot understand his 
vicious, abusive treatment of Harry and Hermione. That makes me think 
that he is still evil, even if he is allied with Albus Dumbledore.
The things that he says and does to Harry are evil. There is 
absolutely no excuse for what he says to Hermione about her teeth.
That is an abuse of power and is inexcusable, and more importantly, 
indicates that the person who does it is evil and corrupt.

Susan




From margdean at erols.com  Mon May 28 04:26:52 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:26:52 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
References: <9esljt+9d3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B11D38C.EB93410A@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19623

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> I really don't think Snape's greatest desire is to redeem himself.
> I cannot figure Snape out. I can understand that he became a Death
> Eater and then changed/transformed. But I cannot understand his
> vicious, abusive treatment of Harry and Hermione. That makes me think
> that he is still evil, even if he is allied with Albus Dumbledore.
> The things that he says and does to Harry are evil. There is
> absolutely no excuse for what he says to Hermione about her teeth.
> That is an abuse of power and is inexcusable, and more importantly,
> indicates that the person who does it is evil and corrupt.

I think the important question here is why Snape so dislikes
Harry and Hermione, because that's the logical motive for his
nastiness.  I don't think a person has to be more than naturally
blackhearted (we all are, to an extent) to make unkind remarks
about people he doesn't like.  I know I've =thought= plenty of
them, though I normally don't vocalize them.

(And I do find it a little surprising that so many people on this
list come down so VERY hard on Snape for one nasty crack.  I
wonder how many of them he had to endure, in his own school days,
from people like the ones who magicked them into the Marauder's
Map for him to find.)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon May 28 05:10:57 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 05:10:57 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <003201c0e625$bb759e80$58bce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9esml1+3lpj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19624

I read the Newsweek article and I thought it had some interesting 
elements but was mostly gibberish.

I have been thinking about evil......I think evil is conscious, a 
deliberate choice, planned and calculated. I think that it is about
an individual getting what they want. That is oftentimes revenge or 
power and control. They often think they are entitled, that they were 
treated badly and deserve better, or that they are doing it on behalf 
of a group that has been treated badly.

Many individuals have been treated badly (horrendously abused as 
children, to use one example that Newsweek used) and many individuals 
are part of a group that has been treated badly (such as Native 
Americans). Not all individuals who have been treated badly become 
evil. Some engage in self destructive behavior. Others triumph over 
their own ill-treatment, and do good.

Susan




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 24 11:10:03 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:10:03 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Dating/Marriage
References: <9efvld+8193@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE23KtKufVma0osA91E0000263b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19625

Amy Z   <--entered her lifetime relationship at 22.  ::belligerently:: 
Got a problem with that?  <g>

I have been with my current b/f for 4 and a half years. My sis has been with hers for about the same amount of time, perhaps a month less than me. I probably won't marry very young, but I do hope I'll marry my guy. Sorry about the OT, but I figured since Amy started it, and a few others picked up the thread...

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meckelburg at foni.net  Mon May 28 06:29:23 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:29:23 -0000
Subject: OT: Dating/Marriage
In-Reply-To: <OE23KtKufVma0osA91E0000263b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9esr83+3glc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19626

I entered my lifetime relationship with 18!!
it took us 10years to get married though! Sometimes it scares me, 
that at Age 37 I've spent more time of my life with my husband than 
without already!

Mecki

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> Amy Z   <--entered her lifetime relationship at 22.  
::belligerently:: 
> Got a problem with that?  <g>
> 
> I have been with my current b/f for 4 and a half years. My sis has 
been with hers for about the same amount of time, perhaps a month less 
than me. I probably won't marry very young, but I do hope I'll marry 
my guy. Sorry about the OT, but I figured since Amy started it, and a 
few others picked up the thread...
> 
> Vicky
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From marshamoon at gateway.net  Mon May 28 08:14:43 2001
From: marshamoon at gateway.net (marshamoon)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:14:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
References: <9esml1+3lpj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c0e74e$41686580$0f782e3f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 19627

----- Original Message ----- 
  Susan wrote :
  I read the Newsweek article and I thought it had some interesting 
  elements but was mostly gibberish.

  I have been thinking about evil......I think evil is conscious, a 
  deliberate choice, planned and calculated. I think that it is about
  an individual getting what they want. That is oftentimes revenge or 
  power and control. They often think they are entitled, that they were 
  treated badly and deserve better, or that they are doing it on behalf 
  of a group that has been treated badly.

  Many individuals have been treated badly (horrendously abused as 
  children, to use one example that Newsweek used) and many individuals 
  are part of a group that has been treated badly (such as Native 
  Americans). Not all individuals who have been treated badly become 
  evil. Some engage in self destructive behavior. Others triumph over 
  their own ill-treatment, and do good.

  Susan


Yes, and the most prevalent characteristic of the individuals who would be labeled as evil is their total lack of empathy.  I believe the Newsweek article pointed this out. It's not that these individuals don't know they're hurting someone else, it's that they don't care.  They minimize their own deeds, and blame their victims.   It appears that when children are abused, they are sometimes able to recover if  they are allowed by adults to express their fears, their hurt, and understand that it wasn't their fault.  Individuals who have been the target of emotional or physical sadism, and who have no support or understanding, often grow up without the empathy skills they have never witnessed.  One of the interesting things about the literary persona of Harry Potter (and I think you have to credit JKR with a bit of research on this topic) is that although he is raised in the Dursley's neglectful home, he had 15 months of apparently wonderful parental care prior to the death of his parents.  Again, there is evidence that children who had a year or two of secure loving care in infancy tend to be more resilient and able to withstand subsequent hardships.  It does seem that JKR was aware of these issues when she constructed Harry's history.  If you compare his childhood history to Tom Riddle's, there are obvious differences in parental care and societal status that support the development of both of their characters; Riddle's as the evil anti-social psychopath, and Harry's as the reserved, determined, observant, and good hero.  

I'm unlurking because this thread is in my area of expertise. I work as a mental health manager/counselor in a forensic psychiatric residential rehab center and provide treatment to those who are not guilty by reason of insanity.  (Sort of a cross between Azkaban and St. Mungo's, although one of my philosophical principles is the provision of hope to those I treat.  It's the only way not to become a Dementor) 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Mon May 28 09:31:38 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:31:38 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9esljt+9d3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0e758$fefce9e0$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19628


>I really don't think Snape's greatest desire is to redeem himself.
>I cannot figure Snape out. I can understand that he became a Death
>Eater and then changed/transformed. But I cannot understand his
>vicious, abusive treatment of Harry and Hermione

Snape, IMHO, is pretty typical of a certain sort of teacher.  In order to
avoid the justified hail of owls from people who may think this makes me
sound as though my attitude to teachers is something like Draco Malfoy's
attitude to Mudbloods, only minus the tolerance and the charity, I will add
that I think teachers are, in the main, underpaid and underappreciated, and
that I have met some truly inspirational ones.  I have, however, met and
been taught by one or two  who make Snape sound positively cuddly.  There
was no apparent reason why these people should behave like psychopaths (I
particularly remember the one who left me with a permanently damaged left
elbow) except (1) that they could; and (2) they seemed to be in the wrong
job.  I cannot imagine anything closer to hell than being forced to stand,
day in, day out in front of a bunch  rampaging kids  if you didn't like
children at all, and if you suspect that the minute you let down your guard
the savages would be through into the compound.  No wonder it does  nasty
things to people's personalities (it's no good saying that if Snape had the
nerve to act as a double agent in Voldemort's camp he ought to be able to
handle a group of sulky Griffindors without it getting to him - one of the
nicer teachers I experienced had been "relegated" (and I assure you that was
how the school saw it) to teaching the educationally subnormal because his
nerves wouldn't let him teach regular classes, despite the fact that he'd
survived 2 torpedoings and won all sorts of medals  when he'd been in the
Royal Navy).  My view is that Snape never wanted to be a teacher at all
(probably he should have been the magic equivalent of a research chemist)
and Dumbledore offered him the job because no-one else wanted to employ a
suspected Death Eater and Dumbledore wanted to keep him under his eye to
ensure no backsliding.  Being Snape, and therefore something of a
perfectionist in his own way, he then set out to prove that he was the best
in the school in his own line.  The slot of "Most Terrifying Teacher" seemed
the easiest for him to fill, and his career was born.

Susan




From dianne at surfshop.net.ph  Mon May 28 10:00:34 2001
From: dianne at surfshop.net.ph (Dianne Singson)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:00:34 +0800
Subject: Vitaserum
Message-ID: <3B1221C1.136E6415@surfshop.net.ph>

No: HPFGUIDX 19629

> I imagine Snape spreading open his robes and having them lined with
rows upon rows of pockets, each holding a different potion.

Indigo <

But then his robes won't have that "billowing effect" because they'd be
too weighed down with all those bottles... :)

--Dianne






From dianne at surfshop.net.ph  Mon May 28 10:13:55 2001
From: dianne at surfshop.net.ph (Dianne Singson)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:13:55 +0800
Subject: Lockhart
Message-ID: <3B1224E2.219CB93@surfshop.net.ph>

No: HPFGUIDX 19630

>Neil

*[speculative moment] - I've always assumed that Gilderoy used an
'Aphrodisia' spell to captivate those around him.  Depending on their
potential to be attracted, this would cause some people to be charmed by
him
and others to fall head over heels in love with him.<<

Lockhart seems to be some kind of a male version of a veela (is there
such thing?). He seems to have sort of "brainwashed" Mrs. Weasley and
Hermione with his good looks, so even if he was this stupid git (as Ron
put it), Hermione oversees this fact and still fancies him.  Isn't that
like the sort of thing the veelas at the Quidditch World Cup did, or how
Fleur was able to make heads turn when she went over Harry's table for
"ze bouillabaisse"? This is a really silly idea but I can just imagine
all sorts of funny things about Lockhart.

--Dianne




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 10:24:26 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:24:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9esljt+9d3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010528102426.92936.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19631

 > Rebecca, thanks so much for posting!
> 
> Hmmmm..Snape is then like Inspector Javert?

We're on a real Les Miz kick around here, aren't we?

> The things that he says and does to Harry are evil.
> There is absolutely no excuse for what he says to 
> Hermione about her teeth.  That is an abuse of power

> and is inexcusable, and more importantly, indicates 
> that the person who does it is evil and corrupt.
> 
> Susan
> 

OTOH, when Voldemort calls the Death Eaters to him at
his father's grave, he mentions Snape and what will
happen to him for having become a spy.  Snape's life
isn't worth two knuts.  Perhaps he has always expected
Voldemort to return and has been trying to "endear"
himself to any and all students who pass through
Slytherin in the meantime, many of whom have parents
who are Death Eaters, in order to confuse them about
their allegiances.  (This should be pretty confusing
to Draco Malfoy, for instance.)  At the end of GoF we
find that he will resume his work as a spy--and the
work will undoubtedly be more dangerous than ever
because his cover has been completely blown. 

As for his behavior toward Harry, Hermione and perhaps
Neville in particular, I think he is merely toughening
them up.  He wants them to be so pissed off at him
that they do well to spite him.  One could argue that
it is working quite well, actually.

--Barb


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 10:32:30 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:32:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT: Dating/Marriage
In-Reply-To: <9esr83+3glc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010528103230.69870.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19632


--- meckelburg at foni.net wrote:
> I entered my lifetime relationship with 18!!
 
[snip]
 
> Mecki

I entered mine at 19, married at 24 and we were told
then that it was about time!  (That was 13 years ago.)
And, yeah, one month into the relationship I panicked
that I had met someone who was the sort of person you
MARRY, not just date in college, but after a week of
freaking out over this, I went on.  I also know people
who freaked out over such things when they were young,
then dropped the person of their dreams merely because
of age, and have spent the rest of their lives talking
about the "one who got away..."

Oh, and I subscribe to the
LiLy-and-James-were-in-the-middle-of-a-war-and-didn't-see-the-point-in-waiting
theory. (Ha!  Brought it back to topic!  Voila!)

--Barb
   
 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From catlady at wicca.net  Mon May 28 11:09:26 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:09:26 -0700
Subject: Snape - Riddle - Erised
Message-ID: <3B1231E5.AF20D6BD@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19633

Margaret Dean wrote:

> I think the important question here is why Snape so
> dislikes  Harry and Hermione, because that's the logical
> motive for his  nastiness.

I wish I understood WHY Snape dislikes HERMIONE. She started in PS/SS by
respecting the hell out of him (and all the teachers, just for being
teachers) and trying desperately to make a good impression on him, and
her academic ability and hard work seem to be just what he would want in
a student!

Susan Hall wrote:
> My view is that Snape never wanted to be a teacher
> at all  (probably he should have been the magic equivalent
> of a research chemist) and Dumbledore offered him the jo
> b because no-one else wanted to employ a suspected Death
> Eater and Dumbledore wanted to keep him under his eye to
> ensure no backsliding.

My view is extremely similar, except that I don't think Dumbledore
thought backsliding was a big risk, but did think that revenge by Death
Eaters who walked free was a big risk.

Marshamoon wrote:
> If you compare [Harry's] childhood history to Tom
> Riddle's, there are obvious differences in parental care
> and societal status that support the development of
> both of their characters;

My theory about Tom Riddle is that he couldn't know so much about his
parents if he had been in an orphanage since birth -- the orphanage
people wouldn't have told him. So I suppose he was raised by his
mother's parents for his first couple of years, long enough for him to
be old enough to remember what they told him about his parents, until
they (grandparents) died too. I think little Tommy might have killed his
grand/foster parents by uncontrolled enraged childish use of his very
powerful magic.

My theory about Harry is that Lily, in her death, put herself into his
mind as an image, who could comfort him when he was miserable with
Dursleys and tell him about empathy, and that SHE was the voice that
helped him resist the Imperius Curse.

Btw, are you from wizarding Moon family, one of whom was sorted in
Harry's year?

More btw: I didn't write down who was in the discussion about IS RIDDLE
A SCARY NAME? I think "Riddle" is quite adequately scary: Riddle,
Puzzle, Mystery, Trap. Perhaps that was the point made by mentioning the
"batman" villain The Riddler. Thomas Riddle is not a wimpy name -- True
Thomas, Doubting Thomas, St. Thomas Moore...

Schlobin wrote:
> I  would suggest that Ron and Harry's [visions in Mirror of
> Erised] are their desires AT AGE 14 (sorry if I'm not being very
(above emphasis added)
> accurate).  I would suggest that what we want as adolescents
> is oftentimes  not what we want as adults OR we believe
> deeply that we want something but later figure out we don't.

That's what Tom said to me when I suggested a teen-ager seeing himself
in the Mirror  as a successful adult just like his parents want him to
be, and being furious at stupid mirror for not showing him being a rock
star, great underappreciated starving artist in garret, sex god, etc.
"Then the Mirror isn't doing its job." he said.

He went on to say: "Why is the Mirror at Hogwarts anyway? It should be
at the psychologist's office as it is obviously intended as a
psychologist's tool: she asks the patient what he saw in the Mirror." I
said: "Suppose the patient lies about it?"

I wanted to say something about the Aphrodisia spell, and how the
Viritaserum Potion is so much less convenient than the Viagrus Charm
(no, I didn't invent that), but don't remember what I wanted to say. One
guess what I would see in Mirror of Erised just now.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon May 28 13:09:54 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:09:54 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Re: OT: Dating/Marriage (and OT messages in general)
References: <20010528103230.69870.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006801c0e777$9f58df20$7a3770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 19634

[Neil hastily retrieves the motheaten moderating hairnet from its drawer,
pulls on the tartan dressing gown, and bursts into the corridor.  How do
moths eat a hairnet?  Let's not get into that...]

Hi everyone and a big welcome to all our new members.

This is a reminder that we have a separate, very active, list for off topic
posts.  The thread about dating and marriage should be continued on OT
Chatter (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter), and any other
totally OT messages should be posted there.  As a general rule, if you need
to put "OT" in your header, you are almost certainly posting to the wrong
list and you may find yourself becoming intimate with slugs.

For general information on this club and its various arms (including a link
to the netiquette tips file, including notes on OT posts):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPFGUWelcome.htm

Additional note:  Some OT content in an on topic message (or as part of a
multiple response) is fine, but being cheeky, and adding a token on topic
line to the end of an OT message, will cause the Moderators' wands to quiver
in their boxes and the List Elves to scuttle around their dungeon, banging
their lumpen heads against the walls.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From nera at rconnect.com  Mon May 28 13:20:01 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:20:01 -0000
Subject: Lockhart & Lockhart's Pictures
In-Reply-To: <3B1224E2.219CB93@surfshop.net.ph>
Message-ID: <9etja1+di84@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19635

<snip> This is a really silly idea but I can just imagine
> all sorts of funny things about Lockhart.
> 
> --Dianne
**********************************************

Me, too! I can just imagine Lockhart's picture images taking a stroll 
down the hallway and charming the pants off of the Fat Lady and her 
friends. They might also have long chats with Sir Cadagon about their 
respective adventures. As you may  have guessed, this is one of JKR's 
ideas that fascinates me.

Doreen, wishing that her pictures could move about and talk




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon May 28 13:27:49 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:27:49 -0000
Subject: Gilderoy... avra kadavra
In-Reply-To: <9es09h+6s0f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9etjol+aqc8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19636


> 
> Vitaserum, too, which perhaps protects against Avra Kedavra?
> (snip digression on balanced diet, Lucky Charms, 
www.generalmills.com)
> 
> Btw, http://google.com/ scares me:
> 
> 'Your search - "avra kedevra" - did not match any documents. 
> Did you mean: "avra kedavra"?'
> 
> Robert Carnegie
> Glasgow, Scotland
*************************
I sincerely wish that avra kedavra did not remind me so much of abbra 
kadabra, which always cracks me up because it has usually been used 
in comedic magical moments.

Doreen, whose mind has a will of its own and I am only along for the 
ride.




From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon May 28 13:33:33 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:33:33 -0000
Subject: Vitaserum
In-Reply-To: <3B1221C1.136E6415@surfshop.net.ph>
Message-ID: <9etk3d+vujd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19637

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dianne Singson <dianne at s...> wrote:
> > I imagine Snape spreading open his robes and having them lined 
with
> rows upon rows of pockets, each holding a different potion.
> 
> Indigo <
> 
> But then his robes won't have that "billowing effect" because 
they'd be
> too weighed down with all those bottles... :)
> 
> --Dianne

Not necessarily.

We *are* talking about wizards here.

Snape puts his potions in his robes, closes them up, then 
incantates, "Aeroefect!"  and his robes billow anyway! 

*grin* 

Indigo




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 13:45:14 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:45:14 -0000
Subject: Draco the Dragon?
Message-ID: <9etkpa+q6v7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19638

(I searched through the arcives and I don't THINK this has been 
discussed before, but just shoo me to the appropriate thread if it 
has.)

I'm wondering about the potential for Draco being an 
animagus.  "Draco" means dragon in Latin (I believe -- and there's 
also the Draconian Code reference for his name).  Could it be that 
our firey Draco can turn himself into a common welsh green -- with a 
white spot on his top-knot, of course?

Stephanie (who hasn't gotten to weed for days due to cold mountain 
rains)




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 14:59:24 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:59:24 -0000
Subject: moving pictures  (was Re: Lockhart & Lockhart's Pictures)
In-Reply-To: <9etja1+di84@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9etp4c+q7g1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19639

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> <snip> This is a really silly idea but I can just imagine
> > all sorts of funny things about Lockhart.
> > 
> > --Dianne
> **********************************************
> 
> Me, too! I can just imagine Lockhart's picture images taking a 
stroll 
> down the hallway and charming the pants off of the Fat Lady and her 
> friends. They might also have long chats with Sir Cadagon about 
their 
> respective adventures. As you may  have guessed, this is one of 
JKR's 
> ideas that fascinates me.
> 
> Doreen, wishing that her pictures could move about and talk

But have you ever noticed that it's only the paintings that can move 
from painting to painting and talk to people?  Photos only smile and 
wave -- and, like Penelope, hide behind their frame when Fred and 
George do something to mess them up!  (Too bad D'Vinci wasn't a 
wizard -- we could ask the Mona Lisa who she is ;-) ).

Stephanie





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Mon May 28 15:40:51 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:40:51 -0000
Subject: Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <9etkpa+q6v7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9etri3+tj0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19640

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> (I searched through the arcives and I don't THINK this has been 
> discussed before, but just shoo me to the appropriate thread if it 
> has.)
> 
> I'm wondering about the potential for Draco being an 
> animagus.  "Draco" means dragon in Latin (I believe -- and there's 
> also the Draconian Code reference for his name).  Could it be that 
> our firey Draco can turn himself into a common welsh green -- with 
a 
> white spot on his top-knot, of course?
> 
> Stephanie (who hasn't gotten to weed for days due to cold mountain 
> rains)

Draco is also a constellation.

I'd be surprised if Draco was an animagus.  He has never struck me as 
someone who would go out and try to apply himself to something this 
intricate and involved.  Plus, what would he do with Crabbe and Goyle?
These guys are sidekicks don't seem to have the brainpower needed to 
figure out the Animagus transformation, so Draco would have to do all 
the thinking. 

Plus, can an Animagus turn into a Magical creature?  

Marianne






From tamf at matavnet.hu  Mon May 28 15:19:31 2001
From: tamf at matavnet.hu (Tamfiiris)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:19:31 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <3B11D38C.EB93410A@erols.com>
References: <3B11D38C.EB93410A@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3721.010528@matavnet.hu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19641

Margaret Dean wrote:

> I think the important question here is why Snape so dislikes
> Harry and Hermione, because that's the logical motive for his
> nastiness.  I don't think a person has to be more than naturally
> blackhearted (we all are, to an extent) to make unkind remarks
> about people he doesn't like.  I know I've =thought= plenty of
> them, though I normally don't vocalize them.

i agree. he's probably jealous of Harry, first for his fame, later on
for his talent. as someone else said, he beats Snape again and again
when it comes to saving the world from evil. as for Hermione, that's
probably a result of her being a friend of Harry's... or a member of
Gryffindor... or a girl, Muggle-born, whatever.

i wonder how Snape would have treated Harry if he'd been in Slytherin?

> (And I do find it a little surprising that so many people on this
> list come down so VERY hard on Snape for one nasty crack.  I
> wonder how many of them he had to endure, in his own school days,
> from people like the ones who magicked them into the Marauder's
> Map for him to find.)

it's not just one! he continually abuses his unfavourite pupils with
nasty jabs at their weaknesses. i'm sure the ones described in the
books aren't the only ones, either. his classes sound like nightmares
to me.

ciao
Tamf





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon May 28 16:12:36 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:12:36 -0000
Subject: moving pictures  (was Re: Lockhart & Lockhart's Pictures)
In-Reply-To: <9etp4c+q7g1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ettdk+apuu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19642

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> But have you ever noticed that it's only the paintings that can 
move 
> from painting to painting and talk to people?  Photos only smile 
and 
> wave -- and, like Penelope, hide behind their frame when Fred and 
> George do something to mess them up!  (Too bad D'Vinci wasn't a 
> wizard -- we could ask the Mona Lisa who she is ;-) ).
> 

Dumbledore's Chocolate Frog card picture "left" the card in SS/PS. 
Though the book didn't say if the picture went to another card. 

Maybe the differences between the painting and photo images is that 
the painting images may include the full body of the subject. The Fat 
Lady's friend, Violet, was running through the paintings in GoF. How 
would she be able to run if her legs and feets were not painted? I 
suspect the Fat Lady's portrait includes her lower half too. 
Penelope's photo was probably from her shoulders up, so her image 
wouldn't be able to run or walk in the traditional sense. But even 
that can't explain how Lockhart's photos were able to put their hair 
in hair-nets...

Milz




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 16:31:56 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:31:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <9etkpa+q6v7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010528163156.8959.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19643


--- Stephanie Roark Keener <sdrk1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm wondering about the potential for Draco being an 
> animagus.  "Draco" means dragon in Latin (I believe -- and there's 
> also the Draconian Code reference for his name).  Could it be that 
> our firey Draco can turn himself into a common welsh green -- with a 
> white spot on his top-knot, of course?

Goodness, I hope not! We already have too many animagi! And I thought
the spell was supposed to be really difficult to cast...and I was under
the impression that not just anyone could do it. It really is amazing
that James, Sirius, and Peter were all able to cast the spell
correctly. Granted, they had Remus' friendship to push them forward but
it is still amazing.

I'm hoping we don't find anymore animagi in the books. I mean, if we
do, the possibility that the spell is that difficult goes lower and
lower...

~Amber


=====
"Roses are for love. Not forget-me-not, honeysuckle, silly 
sweethearts' love but the love that makes you and keeps 
you whole, love that gets you through the worst your 
life'll give you and that pours out of you when you're 
given the best instead."
 - Robin McKinley "Rose Daughter"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon May 28 16:33:57 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:33:57 -0000
Subject: Snape - Riddle - Erised
In-Reply-To: <3B1231E5.AF20D6BD@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9etull+h9g3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19644

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> > I think the important question here is why Snape so
> > dislikes  Harry and Hermione, because that's the logical
> > motive for his  nastiness.
> 
> I wish I understood WHY Snape dislikes HERMIONE. She started in 
PS/SS by
> respecting the hell out of him (and all the teachers, just for being
> teachers) and trying desperately to make a good impression on him, 
and
> her academic ability and hard work seem to be just what he would 
want in
> a student!
> 

The Hermione lovers will get upset with me for this, but perhaps 
Snape dislikes Hermione because she's trying too hard to make a good 
impression. Maybe Snape thinks Hermione is trying to ingratiate 
herself. IIRC in the first potions class, he was specifically asking 
Harry questions and Hermione was trying desperately to make him 
notice that she knew the answers. Maybe that rubbed Snape the wrong 
way, especially since his purpose was to take Harry down a few 
notches. 

I've taught small groups before and I've noticed that whenever one 
person knows the answers and always volunteers them, the remaining 
people seem to 'faze out' and solely rely upon the answering person. 
It makes it hard (for me at least) to gage how well the others are 
grasping the material.

> Susan Hall wrote:
> > My view is that Snape never wanted to be a teacher
> > at all  (probably he should have been the magic equivalent
> > of a research chemist) and Dumbledore offered him the jo
> > b because no-one else wanted to employ a suspected Death
> > Eater and Dumbledore wanted to keep him under his eye to
> > ensure no backsliding.
> 
> My view is extremely similar, except that I don't think Dumbledore
> thought backsliding was a big risk, but did think that revenge by 
Death
> Eaters who walked free was a big risk.
> 

Exactly, I think part of the reason why Snape is teaching at Hogwarts 
is because he is under Dumbledore's protection from the Death Eaters 
he betrayed. No one can apparate or disapparate within the grounds, 
Dumbledore is nearby. Hogwarts is a nearly perfect 'witness 
protection program' for Snape.

> Marshamoon wrote:
> > If you compare [Harry's] childhood history to Tom
> > Riddle's, there are obvious differences in parental care
> > and societal status that support the development of
> > both of their characters;
> 
> My theory about Tom Riddle is that he couldn't know so much about 
his
> parents if he had been in an orphanage since birth -- the orphanage
> people wouldn't have told him. So I suppose he was raised by his
> mother's parents for his first couple of years, long enough for him 
to
> be old enough to remember what they told him about his parents, 
until
> they (grandparents) died too. I think little Tommy might have 
killed his
> grand/foster parents by uncontrolled enraged childish use of his 
very
> powerful magic.
> 

IIRC, Riddle tells the Headmaster that the orphanage told him that 
his mother named him 'Tom' after his father and 'Marvolo' after her 
father before she died. I think when Riddle was a first year, he 
probably looked his mother's  family up in wizarding books and 
wizarding records (which is something Harry hasn't done yet with his 
Potter family). He probably even talked to his mother's and 
grandfather's magical friends etc for information and was able to 
piece together his relationship to Slytherin.

I think Voldemort gives a decent portrayal of the emotional state of 
children abandoned by a parent. Albeit it is rather extreme (killing 
the paternal family), but the hatred and is realistic based upon my 
experience with real-life children like him.

Milz




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 16:46:45 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:46:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Snape's Dislike of Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9etull+h9g3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010528164645.64962.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19645


--- Milz <absinthe at mad.scientist.com> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> > I wish I understood WHY Snape dislikes HERMIONE. She started in 
> > PS/SS by respecting the hell out of him (and all the teachers, just
> > for being teachers) and trying desperately to make a good
> > impression on him, and her academic ability and hard work seem to
be
> >  just what he would want in a student!
> > 
> 
> The Hermione lovers will get upset with me for this, but perhaps 
> Snape dislikes Hermione because she's trying too hard to make a good 
> impression. Maybe Snape thinks Hermione is trying to ingratiate 
> herself. 

I must say, I agree with this sentiment. Perhaps if she were a bit less
enthusiastic to *always* have the correct answer, especially in the
beginning, he would've been a bit lighter towards her. Regardless on
how Hermione intends to come off, she does come off as a bit of an
aspiring Teacher's Pet. Some teachers don't like that. And, of course,
it doesn't help that Hermione is in Gryffindor. And we all know that
Snape has a chip on his shoulder against Gryffindors. I think all of
these work against Hermione in the beginning.

And then, later, Hermione has the nerve to be friends with the
esteemable Harry Potter. From that point on, there was no chance of
getting Snape's favor. 

~Amber


=====
"Roses are for love. Not forget-me-not, honeysuckle, silly 
sweethearts' love but the love that makes you and keeps 
you whole, love that gets you through the worst your 
life'll give you and that pours out of you when you're 
given the best instead."
 - Robin McKinley "Rose Daughter"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Mon May 28 17:45:22 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:45:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Dislike of Hermione
References: <20010528164645.64962.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B128EB2.1571D568@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19646

Amber wrote:

> And then, later, Hermione has the nerve to be friends with the
> esteemable Harry Potter. From that point on, there was no chance of
> getting Snape's favor.

Recall, too, that although Hermione was *not* a friend of Harry's at
this point, Snape was not to know this. He hated Harry from the outset,
and the first thing Harry said to him, other than varieties of "I don't
know" was "I think Hermione does, try her" or something. So I have
always thought that Snape classed her as Harry's friend from the outset,
and reacted to her accordingly, which places a massive barrier there for
him to allow himself to appreciate her abilities. Coupled with all the
other excellent reasons (appearance of brown-nosing, being in
Gryffindor, etc.) Hermione never had a chance with Snape.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 28 18:00:44 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:00:44 -0000
Subject: Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <9etkpa+q6v7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eu3od+gv7l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19647

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> wrote:
> (I searched through the arcives and I don't THINK this has been 
> discussed before, but just shoo me to the appropriate thread if it 
> has.)
> 
> I'm wondering about the potential for Draco being an 
> animagus.  "Draco" means dragon in Latin (I believe -- and there's 
> also the Draconian Code reference for his name).  Could it be that 
> our firey Draco can turn himself into a common welsh green -- with a 
> white spot on his top-knot, of course?

If he studies?

Btw, the fact that Polyjuice Potion isn't intended for changing
into an animal (according to Hermione) doesn't mean that there
isn't another potion which is for that purpose?

Back to www.babyname.com, which actually claims to recognise:
'This boy's name is used in English.  Its source is a literature
expression whose meaning has been lost.  The name Draco did
not rank among the roughly 6,000 names reported in the 1990
Census Data.'

A literature expression: well, www.m-w.com confirms that "foxed",
often used of books (rather than their contents), means "discolored
with yellowish brown stains."  Dragonned would be like foxed, but
much, much worse?  There's this Dark Mark that people have alluded
to...

www.m-w.com says that "Draco" is (1) Latin for "dragon" and
(2) a constellation allegedly resembling a dragon and
(3) a particular historical person who was an 'Athenian lawgiver;
prepared prob. first comprehensive written law code for Athens
(ca. 621 B.C.), prescribing death for most offenses, whence the
word draconian.'  I think you covered all that.

The name Lucius, now: 'This boy's name is used in English.
Its source is Lux, a Latin name meaning "Light."  The name
Lucius ranked 1171st in popularity for males of all ages
in a sample of the 1990 US Census.'

Hmm, sounds a bit like "Lucifer"? ("Bringer of light.")

Severus is a Latin name meaning "Strict or stern", which, too,
was probably known already...?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From deeblite at home.com  Mon May 28 18:25:06 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:25:06 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <9etri3+tj0i@eGroups.com>
References: <9etkpa+q6v7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010528142350.02cac970@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19648

At 03:40 PM 5/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...>
>wrote:
> > (I searched through the arcives and I don't THINK this has been
> > discussed before, but just shoo me to the appropriate thread if it
> > has.)
> >
> > I'm wondering about the potential for Draco being an
> > animagus.  "Draco" means dragon in Latin (I believe -- and there's
> > also the Draconian Code reference for his name).  Could it be that
> > our firey Draco can turn himself into a common welsh green -- with
>a
> > white spot on his top-knot, of course?
> >
> > Stephanie (who hasn't gotten to weed for days due to cold mountain
> > rains)
>
>Draco is also a constellation.
>
>I'd be surprised if Draco was an animagus.  He has never struck me as
>someone who would go out and try to apply himself to something this
>intricate and involved.  Plus, what would he do with Crabbe and Goyle?

They could turn into a Crab and a Gargoyle =)

>These guys are sidekicks don't seem to have the brainpower needed to
>figure out the Animagus transformation, so Draco would have to do all
>the thinking.

He could tell them exactly how to do it

>Plus, can an Animagus turn into a Magical creature?

I don't see why not
-- 

Deeblite
WTF is an acronym?




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 18:30:02 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:30:02 -0000
Subject: Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <9eu3od+gv7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eu5fa+au05@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19649

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> > I'm wondering about the potential for Draco being an 
> > animagus.  "Draco" means dragon in Latin (I believe -- and 
there's 
> > also the Draconian Code reference for his name).  Could it be 
that 
> > our firey Draco can turn himself into a common welsh green -- 
with a 
> > white spot on his top-knot, of course?
> 
> If he studies?

I know Draco doesn't get the best marks, but I don't think he lacks 
talent either, and if he  puts his mind to it....  I'm basing this 
theory on, once again, the fact that people seem to match up with 
their names -- somehow.  Draco's either a dragon, or he's going to 
kill a bunch of people for stealing his quills ;-).  

> 
There's this Dark Mark that people have alluded
> to...
> 
Robert, you really, really need to read Goblet of Fire.  1) Because 
being on this list has probably already spoiled it for you, so you 
better read it quick before it's totally and completely ruined.  2) 
It'll explain a lot of what we're talking about.  (Sorry if I've 
gotten into Elfdom).

Stephanie





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Mon May 28 18:31:05 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:31:05 -0000
Subject: Snape (was:JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil)
In-Reply-To: <3B11D38C.EB93410A@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9eu5h9+8u1i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19650

Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> (And I do find it a little surprising that so many people on this
> list come down so VERY hard on Snape for one nasty crack.  I
> wonder how many of them he had to endure, in his own school days,
> from people like the ones who magicked them into the Marauder's
> Map for him to find.)
> 

I don't come down hard on Snape *only* because of that nasty crack he 
makes to Hermione (although it is extremely ugly and IMO 
unforgivable).  I don't like Snape because he's just plain mean.  He 
starts out being ugly to Harry by treating him differently on the 
very first day he is in class. (But I'm willing to guess he would 
deny that by claiming "I treat him just like all the other first 
years.")  He knows (or should) that Harry was raised in a Muggle 
family and had no idea who he was until Hagrid filled him in. He's 
nasty to Harry because of a grudge against James.  At that time, he 
doesn't know that Harry will become a regular rule-breaker.  Harry's 
just an 11 yo kid in his first day of school. 

He is also mean and derogatory towards Neville (and in front of 
another professor too!) and Hermione too for reasons we don't know.  
There are no excuses for this behavior. 

I trust Snape because Dumbledore trusts him.  I *do not* however, 
like him at all.  (Maybe because he reminds me of my 3rd grade 
teacher?)    

Trina




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon May 28 18:44:41 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:44:41 -0700
Subject: Snape-Harry-Slytherin -- Moving Pictures  
Message-ID: <3B129C99.7C39101A@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19651

Tamfiiris wrote:
>  i wonder how Snape would have treated Harry if he'd been in
Slytherin?

IIRC Rhysenn wrote a fic about if Harry had been in Slytherin.
"Slytherin Pride". On ffnet and HPff.

Milz wrote:
> Maybe Snape thinks Hermione is trying to ingratiate herself.

That is what she was doing, but I would have thought that Snape would
have liked it -- a sign that his opinion is valued, altho' nowhere near
so strong a sign as the Order of Merlin, first class.

Amanda wrote:
> Recall, too, that although Hermione was *not* a friend of
> Harry's at this point, Snape was not to know this. He hated
> Harry from the outset, and the first thing Harry said to him,
> other than varieties of "I don't know" was "I think Hermione
> does, try her" or something. So I have always thought that
> Snape classed her as Harry's friend from the outset, and
> reacted to her accordingly,

Thank You! I always knew that Snape hates Hermione for being Harry's
friend, which outweighs all her 'good' qualities, but I couldn't
understand why he hated her before she became Harry's friend. The
explanation that he hated her for having interrupted his attack on Harry
in that first class never seemed quite enough to me. The explanation
that he THOUGHT she was already Harry's friend had NEVER occurred to me!

Milz wrote:
> Maybe the differences between the painting and photo images
>  is that the painting images may include the full body of the subject.

I believe that the painting people can converse and travel from painting
to painting but the photo people can only act out a few movements
because the painting people are individual persons, not the humans who
modeled for the painting, but the photo people are just a record of the
person-at-that-time depicted.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From nera at rconnect.com  Mon May 28 19:00:47 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:00:47 -0000
Subject: moving pictures  ... paintings vs. photos
In-Reply-To: <9etp4c+q7g1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9eu78v+j8rn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19652

Does it specifically *say* somewhere in the books or in a JKR 
discussion, that *only* paintings' subjects can move about, from 
painting to painting? Does it *say* that photo subjects can not move 
from photo to photo, or from photo to painting? Or are we just to 
assume, since only the paintings' subjects have done it so far, that 
the photos' subjects can not? I am really curious about this one.

Doreen

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > <snip> This is a really silly idea but I can just imagine
> > > all sorts of funny things about Lockhart.
> > > 
> > > --Dianne
> > **********************************************
> > 
> > Me, too! I can just imagine Lockhart's picture images taking a 
> stroll 
> > down the hallway and charming the pants off of the Fat Lady and 
her 
> > friends. They might also have long chats with Sir Cadagon about 
> their 
> > respective adventures. As you may  have guessed, this is one of 
> JKR's 
> > ideas that fascinates me.
> > 
> > Doreen, wishing that her pictures could move about and talk
> 
> But have you ever noticed that it's only the paintings that can 
move 
> from painting to painting and talk to people?  Photos only smile 
and 
> wave -- and, like Penelope, hide behind their frame when Fred and 
> George do something to mess them up!  (Too bad D'Vinci wasn't a 
> wizard -- we could ask the Mona Lisa who she is ;-) ).
> 
> Stephanie




From tamf at matavnet.hu  Mon May 28 19:05:10 2001
From: tamf at matavnet.hu (Tamfiiris)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 21:05:10 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <9eu5fa+au05@eGroups.com>
References: <9eu5fa+au05@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0878.010528@matavnet.hu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19653

Stephanie Roark Keener wrote:

> I know Draco doesn't get the best marks, but I don't think he lacks
> talent either, and if he  puts his mind to it....

he'll have to put his mind to it for about three years, if we are to
go by Black's description of the difficulties he and the gang had.
somehow, i don't picture Draco as having that much stamina. if his
father gave him some evil shapechanger potion, on the other hand...

> I'm basing this
> theory on, once again, the fact that people seem to match up with
> their names -- somehow.  Draco's either a dragon, or he's going to
> kill a bunch of people for stealing his quills ;-).

there's also another meaning that springs to mind - draconian, or
draconic, which can mean 'cruel' or 'severe'. it was named after a
lawgiver in Athens by the name of... hmm... Draco. i would expect
Draco's parents to have these characteristics in mind rather than some
untamed beast, which we all know Draco's father hates.

or it could be to contrast his father's: Lucius / Darco... teehee...

ciao
Tamf





From tamf at matavnet.hu  Mon May 28 19:22:02 2001
From: tamf at matavnet.hu (Tamfiiris)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 21:22:02 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] moving pictures  ... paintings vs. photos
In-Reply-To: <9eu78v+j8rn@eGroups.com>
References: <9eu78v+j8rn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4890.010528@matavnet.hu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19654

Doreen Rich wrote:

> Does it specifically *say* somewhere in the books or in a JKR
> discussion, that *only* paintings' subjects can move about, from
> painting to painting? Does it *say* that photo subjects can not move
> from photo to photo, or from photo to painting? Or are we just to
> assume, since only the paintings' subjects have done it so far, that
> the photos' subjects can not? I am really curious about this one.

well, i don't have any concrete evidence, sorry. but i think we can
assume that photos mainly don't move around much, snapshots of the
moment as they are. they didn't seem to have done so in Harry's photo
album of his parents, for example. i assume more 'soul' or magic
substance has gone into creating the paintings, giving them more life
and character.

ciao
Tamf





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Mon May 28 19:42:03 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:42:03 -0000
Subject: moving pictures  ... paintings vs. photos
In-Reply-To: <4890.010528@matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <9eu9mb+g462@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19655

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tamfiiris <tamf at m...> wrote:
> Doreen Rich wrote:
> 
> > Does it specifically *say* somewhere in the books or in a JKR
> > discussion, that *only* paintings' subjects can move about, from
> > painting to painting? Does it *say* that photo subjects can not move
> > from photo to photo, or from photo to painting? Or are we just to
> > assume, since only the paintings' subjects have done it so far, that
> > the photos' subjects can not? I am really curious about this one.
> 
> well, i don't have any concrete evidence, sorry. but i think we can
> assume that photos mainly don't move around much, snapshots of the
> moment as they are. they didn't seem to have done so in Harry's photo
> album of his parents, for example. i assume more 'soul' or magic
> substance has gone into creating the paintings, giving them more life
> and character.

And there are Colin Creevey's photographs (CS chapter 6), which are
just ordinary Muggle snapshots until (so a room-mate tells him) he
develops them in special potion.  I suppose that's hearsay and not
necessarily true...

Paintings, if wizards create them in more or less the usual way,
do take more of the model's time and also the artist's attention -
to some extent they're a work of the artist's imagination.
So they might reasonably have more soul or more magic in?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From nera at rconnect.com  Mon May 28 19:51:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:51:28 -0000
Subject: moving pictures  ... paintings vs. photos
In-Reply-To: <4890.010528@matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <9eua80+avcc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19656

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tamfiiris <tamf at m...> wrote:
> Doreen Rich wrote:
> 
> > Does it specifically *say* somewhere in the books or in a JKR
> > discussion, that *only* paintings' subjects can move about, from
> > painting to painting? Does it *say* that photo subjects can not 
move
> > from photo to photo, or from photo to painting? Or are we just to
> > assume, since only the paintings' subjects have done it so far, 
that
> > the photos' subjects can not? I am really curious about this one.
> 
> well, i don't have any concrete evidence, sorry. but i think we can
> assume that photos mainly don't move around much, snapshots of the
> moment as they are. they didn't seem to have done so in Harry's 
photo
> album of his parents, for example. i assume more 'soul' or magic
> substance has gone into creating the paintings, giving them more 
life
> and character.
> 
> ciao
> Tamf

********************
In Dumbledore's photo, on his trading card, he leaves the picture.

In the photo, that Colin Creevy took, (so it is not just heresay) 
Harry moves completely out of the picture and Lockhart tries to drag 
him back. Then Lockhart leans, exhausted, against the side of the 
photo.

In the Lockhart photos, all of his likenesses are dressed in hairnets 
and rollers, which they had to get from somewhere.

In the Weasley photos and the Sirius Black photos and the Potter 
wedding photos, all the people do is wave and smile. Perhaps, this is 
due to the photographer being a professional. Perhaps, because 
newspapers get discarded and could possibly end up in Muggle hands, 
the photo subjects just sit still or barely move.

I still think that some photos, taken by wizards, with a bit 
different processing, have more potential. I am sticking with my 
Lockhart visits the Fat Lady until someone disproves it with canon.

Doreen, who would love to have a wizard photo of Alan Rickman, life-
size, on her wall. :)




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May 28 20:36:49 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:36:49 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Least Fave Characters
In-Reply-To: <9eoupa+d18f@eGroups.com>
References: <20010526163851.98903.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528133528.03250db0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19657

At 07:05 PM 5/26/01 +0000, rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:
>The sock thing.  Is Dumbledore perhaps a rather large house elf?

I think it's much more likely that the socks are symbolic to him
in some way... Maybe his beloved late wife knitted for him...



                         -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon May 28 20:47:49 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:47:49 -0700
Subject: Surprises (was: Dumbledore and MoM)
In-Reply-To: <9eohnk+10ngh@eGroups.com>
References: <9ekg5k+qvdp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528133750.03257320@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19658

At 03:22 PM 5/26/01 +0000, rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:
>Unless you were reading the books out of order, becoming acquainted
>with JKR's taste for misdirection and the surprise at the end,
>or unless you got a hint elsewhere, I don't see why you'd suspect
>Quirrell instead of Snape at that moment - Harry doesn't!

I never suspected Quirrell for a second... And indeed, it was when
I first reached the words, "But it wasn't Snape... It was Quirrell.";
that I really knew for the first time that this was not going to be any
ordinary fantasy series!  (It was the first genuine surprise I'd gotten
from a work of fiction since the age of six when I first read the
revelation of the long-lost Princess Ozma's true whereabouts, at the
end of the second Oz book!)



                         -- Dave




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 21:32:08 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:32:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Dislike of Hermione
In-Reply-To: <3B128EB2.1571D568@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010528213208.19032.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19659


--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> Recall, too, that although Hermione was *not* a friend of Harry's at
> this point, Snape was not to know this. He hated Harry from the
> outset, and the first thing Harry said to him, other than varieties
> of "I don't know" was "I think Hermione does, try her" or something.
> So I have always thought that Snape classed her as Harry's friend
> from the outset, and reacted to her accordingly, which places a
> massive barrier there for him to allow himself to appreciate her
> abilities. 

Ah, wonderful observation! I've never thought of that scene this way.
Even more reason for Snape to dislike Hermione. Makes perfect sense
now...

~Amber


=====
" 'Great heroes need great sorrows and burdens, or half their greatness goes
unnoticed. It is all part of the fairy tale.' But his voice was a little 
doubtful, and he laid his arm softly around Molly's shoulders. 'It cannot 
be an ill fortune to have loved a unicorn,' he said. 'Surely it must be
the dearest luck of all, though the hardest earned.'"
 - Peter S. Beagle "The Last Unicorn"

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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From JamiDeise at aol.com  Mon May 28 21:35:08 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:35:08 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
Message-ID: <ae.15ab1e64.28441e8c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19660

In a message dated 5/28/2001 12:13:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
tamf at matavnet.hu writes:

<< as for Hermione, that's
 probably a result of her being a friend of Harry's... or a member of
 Gryffindor... or a girl, Muggle-born, whatever.>> I think it's because she's 
so smart. Snape probably sees her as a little know-it-all who deserves to be 
taken down a few pegs. 
 
>> i wonder how Snape would have treated Harry if he'd been in Slytherin?<< 
he would have taken Harry under his wing, I'm sure. Remember the scene in CoS 
when Harry speaks Parseltongue to the snake that Draco creates in the dueling 
club? Everyone backs away from Harry, and Harry notices Snape giving him a 
shrewd, calculating look. I inferred that to mean that Harry suddenly went up 
a few notches in Snape's book. 
 
<<< > (And I do find it a little surprising that so many people on this
 > list come down so VERY hard on Snape for one nasty crack.  I
 > wonder how many of them he had to endure, in his own school days,
 > from people like the ones who magicked them into the Marauder's
 > Map for him to find.)
 
 it's not just one! he continually abuses his unfavourite pupils with
 nasty jabs at their weaknesses. i'm sure the ones described in the
 books aren't the only ones, either. his classes sound like nightmares
 to me.
  >>  and to me. Those little comments are like those "telling details" by 
which a reader can infer a person's entire character. Like in PoZ, when Harry 
falls off the broomstick and Cedric asks for a do-over. All we need to know 
about Cedric is right there in that one action.

Jami 



From JamiDeise at aol.com  Mon May 28 21:35:09 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:35:09 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape (was:JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil)
Message-ID: <ba.149d4c60.28441e8d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19661

In a message dated 5/28/2001 2:33:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
lj2d30 at gateway.net writes:

<< I trust Snape because Dumbledore trusts him. >>

For this reason, I do too, although I don't like him, and I don't think 
there's some deep wellspring of human compassion underneath it all. However, 
this whole "trusting because Dumbledore trusts," while it obviously works 
with Hagrid, Sirius and Lupin ... well, obviously Dumbledore trusted Quirrell 
... and Lockhart ... so his judgment's not infallible ...

Jami 



From angela_burgess at yahoo.com  Mon May 28 21:48:30 2001
From: angela_burgess at yahoo.com (angela_burgess at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 21:48:30 -0000
Subject: Snape, Harry, and Hermione (was:Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil)
In-Reply-To: <3B11D38C.EB93410A@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9euh3e+jvb0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19662

> I think the important question here is why Snape so dislikes
> Harry and Hermione, because that's the logical motive for his
> nastiness.  I don't think a person has to be more than naturally
> blackhearted (we all are, to an extent) to make unkind remarks
> about people he doesn't like.  I know I've =thought= plenty of
> them, though I normally don't vocalize them.
> 
> (And I do find it a little surprising that so many people on this
> list come down so VERY hard on Snape for one nasty crack.  I
> wonder how many of them he had to endure, in his own school days,
> from people like the ones who magicked them into the Marauder's
> Map for him to find.)
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at e...<

I believe the reason so many of us dislike Snape for his remarks is 
because we realize how immature he is being.  Yes, we may have unkind 
thoughts about people we work with, but how many of those are 13-14 
year old children?  How many of us would *truly* make such hurtful 
comments to a child?  Many people endured snide, behind-the-hand 
comments or even mean, hurtful remarks to our face while in school.  
But we do not take that out on children today, 20 years later!

My personal problem with Snape is that so many of us *have* endured 
teachers similar to him, but they are much more in the minority now.  
However, Snape just keeps that myth alive.  The problem with a bad 
teacher is that it only takes one to convince people that that 
teacher is what most are like and that good teachers who care about 
their students personally and academically are hard to find.

We don't yet know all of Snape's secrets.  I hope that when they are 
revealed, he will be redeemed in my eyes.  Until then, I will 
continue to believe that there *is* NO excuse for his behavior and 
that he is simply one of those immature adults that I hate being 
around.

Angela Burgess




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Tue May 29 01:10:21 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 01:10:21 -0000
Subject: Snape (was:JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil)
In-Reply-To: <ba.149d4c60.28441e8d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9eustt+trtk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19663

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/28/2001 2:33:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> lj2d30 at g... writes:
> 
> << I trust Snape because Dumbledore trusts him. >>
> 
> For this reason, I do too, although I don't like him, and I don't 
think 
> there's some deep wellspring of human compassion underneath it all. 
However, 
> this whole "trusting because Dumbledore trusts," while it obviously 
works 
> with Hagrid, Sirius and Lupin ... well, obviously Dumbledore trusted 
Quirrell 
> ... and Lockhart ... so his judgment's not infallible ...
> 

Don't forget Dumbledore trusted Moody/Crouch Jr. for an entire school 
year. I have a suspicion that as the books progress, Harry, Ron and 
Hermione will learn that people do make mistakes. They've 
already learnt that books and documents aren't necessarily the 
be-all-that-ends-all, for example the Animagi Registry. "Trusting 
because Dumbledore trusts" is alittle too elementary.

-Demelza




From indigo at indigosky.net  Tue May 29 11:46:02 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:46:02 -0000
Subject: moving pictures  ... paintings vs. photos
In-Reply-To: <9eua80+avcc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f025q+hu0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19664

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tamfiiris <tamf at m...> wrote:
> > Doreen Rich wrote:
> > 
> > > Does it specifically *say* somewhere in the books or in a JKR
> > > discussion, that *only* paintings' subjects can move about, from
> > > painting to painting? Does it *say* that photo subjects can not 
> move
> > > from photo to photo, or from photo to painting? Or are we just 
to
> > > assume, since only the paintings' subjects have done it so far, 
> that
> > > the photos' subjects can not? I am really curious about this 
one.
> > 
> > well, i don't have any concrete evidence, sorry. but i think we 
can
> > assume that photos mainly don't move around much, snapshots of the
> > moment as they are. they didn't seem to have done so in Harry's 
> photo
> > album of his parents, for example. i assume more 'soul' or magic
> > substance has gone into creating the paintings, giving them more 
> life
> > and character.
> > 
> > ciao
> > Tamf
> 
> ********************
> 
> In the Weasley photos and the Sirius Black photos and the Potter 
> wedding photos, all the people do is wave and smile. Perhaps, this 
is 
> due to the photographer being a professional. Perhaps, because 
> newspapers get discarded and could possibly end up in Muggle hands, 
> the photo subjects just sit still or barely move.
> 
> I still think that some photos, taken by wizards, with a bit 
> different processing, have more potential. I am sticking with my 
> Lockhart visits the Fat Lady until someone disproves it with canon.
> 
Actually,  Harry's photo, when he was roped into a photo op with 
Gilderoy, did everything it could to not be standing in the photo.  
Harry looked at the photo sometime later and saw he was turned around 
and squeezed into one corner trying not to be seen, and he commended 
his photographic image for doing so.

Indigo
[who'd prefer a lifesize moving Sirius photo...yum!] 






From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 12:33:12 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 05:33:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Henrietta...
In-Reply-To: <9f025q+hu0a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010529123312.59661.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19665


Odd things flitting through my mind this morning. Like this one. Would
it have mattered if in the HP books, Harry hadn't been Harry but
instead Henrietta "Harry" Potter? (Or some other female derivation of
Harry...Angharad a la Robin McKinley?) Would the character still be
believable/lovable? Would the books have been as popular?

Just curious what people think, really.

~Amber


=====
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com
Don't ya just hate crappy homepages?...well, here's another!

"This body is dying. I can feel it rotting all around me. 
How can anything that is going to die be real? How can it
be truly beautiful?"
 - Peter S. Beagle "The Last Unicorn"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue May 29 15:53:08 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:53:08 -0000
Subject: Henrietta...
In-Reply-To: <20010529123312.59661.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f0gl4+bo7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19666

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Odd things flitting through my mind this morning. Like this one. 
Would
> it have mattered if in the HP books, Harry hadn't been Harry but
> instead Henrietta "Harry" Potter? (Or some other female derivation 
of
> Harry...Angharad a la Robin McKinley?) Would the character still be
> believable/lovable? Would the books have been as popular?
> 
> Just curious what people think, really.
> 

I think it would have been as popular if the main character were a 
girl. Girls and boys can relate to Harry and the supporting cast. The 
idea and the basic theme, imo, are what hooked readers into Harry's 
world. But then again, I don't keep tally of strong and weak female 
or male roles in books. 

Milz




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue May 29 16:13:04 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:13:04 -0000
Subject: In or out?  was Re: Fudge - Lockhart - Florences, Slugs 
In-Reply-To: <9em00s+le7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f0hqg+7dh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19667

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
<snip>
> Two little things I've noticed recently:

<first little thing snipped> 

> In CoS 6, when Draco is joyfully picking on Harry about the "signed 
> photos," Ron says, "Eat slugs, Malfoy."  I've noticed this before 
> enough to realize that it's the hex he has in mind in the next 
chapter 
> when his wand backfires.  What I haven't noticed until now is that 
it 
> reverses in two ways:  it curses Ron instead of Draco, =and= it 
makes 
> him vomit slugs instead of eat them.  Nice touch, Jo.  (As Hagrid 
> says, "Better out than in," so I suppose it's just as well.)
> 

(I cannot believe I'm nitpicking this, but as the saying (or is it a 
song?) goes - if you can do it, why can't I?)
Anyway, my (extremely tiny) point is that it's not a reversed hex, 
IMO. That is, it's not "slugs regurgitatus" or whatever it would be. 
The curse simply fills the stomach with slugs (hence, "eat slugs, 
Malfoy"), which are then vomited because slugs are not digestible (or 
are they? My dog, at least, who eats EVERYTHING, won't touch them).

Naama, sluggish in response... <ahem>




From joannec at hwy.com.au  Tue May 29 09:14:18 2001
From: joannec at hwy.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:14:18 +1000
Subject: Lupin, Once and Future Professor - Keeper of the House
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010529191418.007c7180@mail.hwy.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 19668

Re: What Lupin's J (as in R. J. Lupin) stands for:

>Or maybe it is Joanne :) 

I don't think so...I mean, I do turn into a beast at certain times of the
month, but I never grow fur when I do.

>Or maybe it is Remus James and James is 
>James Remus ... step-brothers. :))
>
>Doreen, who would love a twist like that.

Oh, now that would be very interesting. I always thought that James would
be James Harry (Harold) and Harry was named after his father, but I think I
like this better.

Joanne.

-- 

Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty
years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the
Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's
not a threat. Now, that's a fact. I'll fuckin' kill you. Chuckie (Ben
Affleck) Good Will Hunting





From ribbony at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 16:43:23 2001
From: ribbony at yahoo.com (ribbony at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:43:23 -0000
Subject: Could Snape be in love with Lily?
Message-ID: <9f0jjb+3tg6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19669

Hello, 

This is my first message1 I have been a lurker for some time but I 
decide to post at last. :) I don't have if this topics have been 
brought up before though.

I think it's very possible that Snape is in love with Lily. It 
couldcertainly  explain why he hates Harry so much, yet protects
Harry nevertheless.
Could it be ...?
1) He hates Harry because he looks exactly like James, and both of 
them are good at sports (Do not occur to me Snape is a sporty type of 
person, I could be wrong though)

2) He protects Harry because he's Lily's son

3) Lily turns him down because of James, so that's why Snape and
James hate each other. (Love rilvary?)

4) Snape never insults Lily before. Surely if he hates all the
Potter, he should hate Lily as well? But no, he has only displayed 
hatred towards Harry and James *only*. Very significant ...

5) Lily is the reason why both Snape turns to you-know-who and goes 
back to the bright side afterwards. He may resent the fact that Lily 
choose James over him, and that's why he becomes Death Eater. (to get 
revenge). But somehow he cannot see Lily dying and that's why he
turns into a spy and informs the Potters that Dark Lord is after them.

Just my thoughts ... any comment?

Hime-chan
PS: I love HP4GU!




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Tue May 29 17:03:21 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:03:21 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <F215uLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS0001469e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f0koq+ujec@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19670

"If you're choosing to write about evil, you really do have a moral 
obligation to show what that means." --J. K. Rowling

Ebony asked:
What *is* evil, and how is it expressed in the Harry Potter books?
Conversely, where's the "good" in the series?
Is it always diametrically opposed to "evil"... or do they sometimes 
exist in the same context, the same scene... even in the same person?

I'm going to cheat a bit and only answer the question What is the 
meaning of evil in the Harry Potter books.  The open question, What 
is evil?, I will not attempt.

I would say there are three main strands to evil in the books.
The first strand is Voldemort's personal motivation and actions.  At 
first sight, he is almost a cartoon figure of evil.  A number of 
people have remarked that he has in effect lost his humanity, and 
this makes him especially evil.  I'm not sure I agree.  First I think 
that Jo Rowling has introduced the idea that he is not human, (`dunno 
if he had enough human left in him to be killed' ? Hagrid, and `I am 
more than a man' ? Voldemort himself) but she has done this in a very 
finely balanced way, using unreliable witnesses, and insisting on 
essentially human elements (bone, flesh, and blood) in the 
resurrection (or, rather, re-incorporation) spell.  Second, I think 
that to deny Voldemort's humanity may actually reduce the degree of 
his evil.  Isn't it the fact that Voldemort is actually a human that 
makes him so especially evil?  Which is worse, a sort of natural 
force that goes round destroying all good things, or someone who 
still has an inkling left of what they are doing, who still knows on 
the inside what the pain he is inflicting must be like?

The roots of Voldemort's development have been fairly fully discussed 
on the group in terms of childhood abuse.  Note that one negative 
statement we can venture here is that there is apparently no inherent 
Star Wars style attraction to the `Dark Side' for its own sake, and 
so no Manichean view of evil.  The only other point I want to make 
here is that he was abandoned (through death) by his wizard mother 
and rejected by his Muggle father, so that his relationship to both 
sides of his ancestry is deeply fractured.

The second strand is the devotion of the Death Eaters to Voldemort.  
I have not checked all the back-posts, but I don't believe this has 
been very heavily discussed.  Barty Crouch Jr. is a curious mixture 
of vindictiveness and selfless devotion.  He clearly loves Voldemort 
and has enormous faith in him.  In another cause, his singleminded 
pursuit of his goal and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of 
another would be regarded as exemplary.  It is clear that Voldemort's 
hold on him is not one of fear alone.  Of course, he is an unusual 
case among the Death Eaters, but it is still worth asking what it was 
that Tom Riddle was able to offer his followers in the first place.  
We don't yet really know, but two possibilities spring to mind: 
immortality, and a new relationship to Muggles (and mudbloods).

The offer of immortality implicit in the name Death Eater, together 
with Voldemort's apparent resurrection (but he was never really 
dead), his unique claims for himself, his absolute demands for 
devotion, his promises to honour his faithful followers, and the 
acceptance of all these by the Death Eaters gives a strongly 
religious atmosphere to the Death Eaters chapter of GOF.  I believe 
that they are susceptible to all this because they are uncertain of 
who they are, and this brings me to my third strand: wizarding 
identity in relation to Muggles.

It is apparent that the wizarding community is very insecure, and 
subject to many prejudices and fears. Wizards have an apparently 
unreasoning fear of, for example, giants and Parselmouths.  I believe 
their view of house-elves is coloured by fear too.  But their deepest 
fear is of their own powers and how they play out in relation to the 
Muggle world.  When some particularly powerful feat such as opening 
the Chamber of Secrets is envisaged, it is assumed that this requires 
dark magic.  At one point the Hogwarts pupils infer that Harry's 
ability as a baby to defeat Voldemort must mean that he is a powerful 
dark wizard ? nothing good could be that strong.  This is a very 
negative outlook indeed.  Likewise, only the horrible Dementors are 
regarded as having the capability to keep Voldemort's remaining 
supporters in check.

The root of this fear is the fragility of wizarding identity.  They 
believe, not without reason, that if they declare themselves to the 
Muggles, they will be rejected and persecuted.  To justify their 
separation from the rest of humanity they try to give themselves a 
separate identity as `purebloods' ? Fudge's `wizarding pride'.  The 
existence of wizards with Muggle parents however negates this, unless 
they too can be characterised as `mudbloods' and excluded from the 
community (represented in the books by Hogwarts).  They then 
underscore their special identity by demonising the giants, 
rationalising house-elf enslavement, and putting Merpeople and 
centaurs at a distance.  Although most ordinary wizards can be 
assumed, for example, not to go along with the extreme views that 
Muggles should be reclassified as Beasts, they still take comfort in 
the easy assumptions of a Rita Skeeter.

But none of this works.  At bottom they know they *are* human.  But 
the cutting out of a separate `wizarding' identity that tries to deny 
this causes them to fear their own magicality, and to characterise 
unusual powers such as Parseltongue as dark.

I believe that it is this uncertainty of identity that fuels wizard 
prejudice, the devotion of the Death Eaters to Voldemort, and 
ultimately the quest of Voldemort himself to be no longer human.

I would suggest, therefore, that the essence of evil in Harry Potter 
is to refuse to admit to being human, in the case of wizards, to 
being a Muggle who happens to have some interesting and useful gifts.

I'd better stop here, but I'll just point out that the counterpoint 
to all this is Harry's self-discovery, in which his identity starts 
out from his humanity, but embraces his wizarding powers and his 
(extended) family.  Goodness is therefore integrity.

The post is long but big questions require big answers.

David





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 17:28:11 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: moving pictures  ... paintings vs. photos
In-Reply-To: <9f025q+hu0a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010529172811.35674.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19671

> Actually,  Harry's photo, when he was roped into a
> photo op with Gilderoy, did everything it could to 
> not be standing in the photo.  Harry looked at the 
> photo sometime later and saw he was turned around 
> and squeezed into one corner trying not to be seen,
> and he commended his photographic image for doing
so.
> 
> Indigo
> [who'd prefer a lifesize moving Sirius photo...yum!]
> 
The wizarding photographic process seems to capture
something of the emotions of the moment, as well as a
person's physical appearance.  Thus, people at a
wedding or other happy occasion wave, Harry tries to
get away from Lockhart, and Lockhart, ever in love
with himself, takes care of his daily beauty regiment
(the hairnets).
 


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From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 17:36:51 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Henrietta...
In-Reply-To: <20010529123312.59661.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010529173651.10991.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19672

 
[snip] Would it have mattered if in the HP books, 
> Harry hadn't been Harry but instead Henrietta 
> "Harry" Potter?  [snip again] Would the character 
> still be believable/lovable? Would the books have 
> been as popular?
> 
> Just curious what people think, really.
> 
> ~Amber
> 
I think I read a fanfic with that premise; can't
remember the name of it though.  There have been loads
of successful book series featuring girls as the lead
character--Anne of Green Gables, the Little House
Books--but those are probably largely popular with
girls.  Somehow, we seem to be raising boys in this
culture to believe they can't read books about girls. 
It's okay, however, for girls to read books about
boys.  Double standard.

Also, I think I read somewhere that Jo Rowling was
advised to bill herself on the books as J.K. Rowling
so that boys wouldn't know right away that a woman had
written them.  The publishing industry is clearly
doing nothing to end the double standard.


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From rachelhardisty at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 17:38:07 2001
From: rachelhardisty at yahoo.com (rachel hardisty)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:38:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 921
In-Reply-To: <991154454.445.3586.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010529173807.7705.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19673



> > > Doreen Rich wrote:
> > > 
Does it *say* that photo
> subjects can not 
> > move
> > > > from photo to photo, or from photo to
> painting? Or are we just 
> to
> > > > assume, since only the paintings' subjects
> have done it so far, 
> > that
> > > > the photos' subjects can not? I am really
> curious about this 
> one.
> > > 
> > > well, i don't have any concrete evidence, sorry.
> but i think we 
> can
> > > assume that photos mainly don't move around
> much, snapshots of the
> > > moment as they are. they didn't seem to have
> done so in Harry's 
> > photo
> > > album of his parents, for example. 



going back to the post when someone said how
insensitive it was of someone to send Hagrid a photo
with Sirius in it for Harry's album (because they
thought Sirius was his parents murderer) - perhaps
Sirius was hidding at the time so they thought 'oh
here's one without that evil Best Man in it, we'll
send that one'.  Or maybe photo images can move, but
are resticted to other photos in the album.  Just some
thoughts!


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From moragt at hotmail.com  Tue May 29 17:48:16 2001
From: moragt at hotmail.com (Morag Traynor)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:48:16 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil (was Lockhart) - "V" - West Ham
Message-ID: <LAW2-F42rUV0hCLwHc9000010af@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19674

Amy Z wrote:


>Mark "The Happy Hammer" explained:
>
> >The club has NEVER won the league title and last won the other major
> >domestic competition (The FA Cup) in 1980. In short we suck, hence
> >the fervent support from the local population but nothing outside of
> >that.
>
>Well, your support may be local, but your fame spreads far and wide
>and across the ocean.  When I got to Dean in the books, I asked my
>husband the soccer fan (yes, we're from the USA) if there was really
>such a team as West Ham.  He instantly said, "Yes!  West Ham United!
>Why do you ask?"  I was impressed.
>
>And if you think your team sucks, check out the New England
>Revolution.
>
>Amy Z
>who may be Dumbledore's age before her team wins the MLS Cup
>
They're not doing too badly now - judging by the roar of the crowd as heard 
from my back garden!
Morag, who is off topic, and hasn't posted for a while, but has just got 
back from a WONDERFUL weekend in the Isle of Skye, and will try to catch up

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From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 17:56:02 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9f0koq+ujec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010529175602.49103.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19675

Dave raises a lot of great points.  He also wrote: 

> Barty Crouch Jr. is a curious mixture of
vindictiveness and selfless devotion.  He clearly
> loves Voldemort and has enormous faith in him.  In
another cause, his singleminded pursuit of his goal
and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of 
> another would be regarded as exemplary.  It is clear
> that Voldemort's hold on him is not one of fear
alone.  Of course, he is an unusual case among the
Death Eaters...

Actually, Barty Crouch, Jr.'s motivations seem to be
remarkably like Tom Riddle's.  His father is obsessed
with catching Dark Wizards, and he evidently neglects
his family and pours himself into his work.  Barty,
Jr. does the one thing guaranteed to wound his father
deepest: he becomes a following of the greatest dark
wizard in fifty years.  Then he even coerces his
parents into helping him escape from prison, and
ultimately kills his own father.   

If there hadn't already been a Voldemort, Barty, Jr.
probably would have become him himself.  

There's some major stuff in the books having to do
with people's reactions to their fathers.  One has to
wonder, how would Harry have interacted with his own
father, had James lived?


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From dosser at btinternet.com  Tue May 29 18:16:47 2001
From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:16:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)
References: <9elgt8+jmfn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c0e86b$89a1c940$a431073e@chris>

No: HPFGUIDX 19676

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:50 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration (filk)


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
  > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
  > > Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration
  > 
  > 
  > I am in awe.
  > 
  > Steve 
  > (genuflecting)

  I second this.  It is inspired!  I've never been moved to praise one 
  of your excellent filks before, but this was definitely 
  supercalifragilisticexpialidotious.  (Is that right??)

  Catherine


  I loved this enormously too and wondered if there were any plans for "Harry Potter, the Musical"  



  It also reminded me of an amusing headline in a tabloid newspaper after Caledonian Thistle (known as "Cally") a lowly Scottish soccer team beat the mighty Celtic.  The next days headlines were "Super-Cally-Go-Ballistic-Celtic-Are-Atrocious"


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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue May 29 18:31:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:31:34 -0400
Subject: In or out?
Message-ID: <F187Nkdpi4DfF5gSLEi0000d28b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19677

Naama wrote re: Ron's unspoken "eat slugs" hex:

>Anyway, my (extremely tiny) point is that it's not a reversed hex,
>IMO. That is, it's not "slugs regurgitatus" or whatever it would be.
>The curse simply fills the stomach with slugs (hence, "eat slugs,
>Malfoy"), which are then vomited because slugs are not digestible (or
>are they? My dog, at least, who eats EVERYTHING, won't touch them).

You may be right.  I haven't tried "gastropodus regurgitatus" on anyone in 
several months, so my memory is rusty (that, to keep up our nitpicking 
streak, is the proper wording, according to Prof. Flitwick).  I just like 
the thought of "you eat slugs" turning into "me vomit slugs."

But you do have me wondering how else "eat slugs" might work.  Would slugs 
materialize in the air and the victim's mouth would unwillingly open and 
take them in?  Would they materialize =in= the victim's mouth?  Will people 
start turning green if I persist in this line of questioning?

Amy Z

---------------------------------
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       I Brake for Animagi
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From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue May 29 19:33:43 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:33:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In or out?
In-Reply-To: <F187Nkdpi4DfF5gSLEi0000d28b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701c0e876$45bd6940$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19678

>I haven't tried "gastropodus regurgitatus" on anyone in
several months, so my memory is rusty (that, to keep up our nitpicking
>streak, is the proper wording, according to Prof. Flitwick).

I know nothing about the learned Charms teacher which would suggest that
Prof Flitwick would try to make a word with a Greek ending (such as
gastropodos) agree with a Latin verb, and if that's what Ron did it was no
wonder the spell went wrong, with or without a dodgy wand.  Especially if he
failed to use the imperative form.

Susan




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue May 29 19:33:41 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:33:41 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 921
In-Reply-To: <20010529173807.7705.qmail@web12406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000601c0e876$445ceee0$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19679

>going back to the post when someone said how
>insensitive it was of someone to send Hagrid a photo
with Sirius in it for Harry's album (because they
>thought Sirius was his parents murderer) - perhaps
Sirius was hidding at the time so they thought 'oh
here's one without that evil Best Man in it, we'll
>send that one'.

Or perhaps the person who sent it had gone through a whole album going
"oh yes - that's sweet - oh damn, that rotter who murdered the McKinnons is
right on the front row - that's a good one of Lily - dreadful one of James -
and isn't that Rozier lurking around at the back? - this one looks ok - oh,
no, it isn't - all four of the back row of that team were at  the infamous
Muggle Baby Barbecue - oh, soddit, he can have the wedding photo and be done
with it.  At least it was never *proved* about Black.  And anyway, doesn't
little Peter look so cute in his top hat and tail"

Susan




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue May 29 19:51:51 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:51:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum and Wizard Lawyers (and a one lin er about photo choices)
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90DB@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19680

Pah, what a bad weekend I chose to go out of town - all these interesting
threads for me to play catchup on! 

Scott wrote
> One thing I know we discussed in the past, but I can't remember and 
> I'm not going to bother going through the archives for is whether a 
> person under Veritaserum's influence would remember an event as it 
> actually happened, or as they experienced it. For example if we gave 
> Harry and Voldy Veritaserum and asked them what happened in the 
> Graveyard would we get the same story?
No, I don't think so. I think Barty Crouch tells his story the way he
believed it - I don't have my copy here, but I remember some of his language
as being very "perspective-laden" - will try to fill in blanks later, if I
can. It would take a lot of magic in perception to see an event from an
omniscient perspective, and on this issue, I think it's clear that even
witches and wizards are only human - if they had omniscience, nobody
would've suspected sirius or overlooked peter, fudge wouldn't be
disbelieving Harry right now, etc. 


Scott also wrote: 
> Do they have lawyers at all? From what we saw in the Penseive the 
> answer seems to be no, but I think we all agree that mightn't have 
> been regular circumstances.
Other than the Bagman bit, those were sentencing and evidentiary
proceedings. It's not completely unheard of for a lawyer to take a backseat
in a sentencing proceeding even in Muggle courtrooms, compared to what a
lawyer does in a courtroom, and it's possible that part of Karkaroff's deal
was that he wouldn't have a lawyer during the proceeding. But the Bagman bit
- no lawyer? It's possible that he had a lawyer off to the side, and that
his schpiel was a result of a discussion with his lawyer, but even when I
read it, it struck me as weird that he didn't have representation there. It
still does. 

Ebony wrote a lot about evil, and MarshaMoon covered my thoughts (as
discussed here before - search for abuse and attach and my name if you care
to read the old posts from april & september) about Harry pretty well, so
I'll stick with responding on the issue that anyone who's been here for more
than a month has been waititng for me to respond to:

> ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS  (Draco Malfoy) 
> "But just as evil can spring from a failing of the heart, so, 
> too, can it 
> grow from the head. "You can have people who have a 
> well-developed capacity 
> for empathy, relating, who are very close to their friends, 
> but who have 
> been raised in an ideology that teaches them that people of another 
> religion, color or ethnic group are bad," says psychologist 
> Bruce Perry of 
> the Child Trauma Academy in Houston. "They will act in a way that is 
> essentially evil based upon cognition rather than emotion." 

Correct. Absolutely. We even see glimmers of this, on what are likely lesser
levels, from other characters, like Ron, who popped up with automatic
anti-werewolf sentiments and prejudices against giants.  I can't imagine
Molly or Arthur indoctrinating the weasley boys the way I imagine Lucius
indoctrinates Draco (for more on that process, see my fanfic - A Surfeit of
Curses - at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise/files/A%20Surfeit%20of%20Curses/)
but it happens anyway, just by growing up in a household where thoughts
about "others" are even discussed - a child in that household learns what he
or she lives. 
But now for my usual Draco Defense - this kind of upbringing doesn't *have*
to percolate into evil, because an outside influence can change it from that
track, the same way an influence of support and understanding can keep a
child from an abusive or neglectful environment from becoming abusive or
sociopathic in turn. To date, we haven't seen any *acts* of *evil* against
*people* by Draco (words, yes; meanspiritedness, yes; magical creatures,
yes) and that means that at present, he is *not* evil. Potential is there -
but so are opportunities for him to be turned. 

But given what I read in a gaming magazine about one of the new HP video
games, I have a feeling that he's going to actually become evil in the books
- one of the games has harry chasing draco - no, not for *romantic* reasons
(Sorry, rhysenn! I agree - Feh!) but because he's "robbed a student." Now, I
know that Canon!Draco is more or less an insufferably mean git, but theft?
Really, that's more extreme than he's been so far in terms of violating the
code of civilization, and I cannot believe JKR would've allowed it if she
had plans to let him be an example of how people can turn away from what
they've brought up to learn and revere, which would be (a) interesting, and
(b) a good lesson, especially to those kids who think evil is *fun*. 

So maybe videogame!draco has opened the door to the evil costume party, and
is making his IntoTheWoodsPrince costume and mask and getting ready to go
in. Darn him!

And Susan just wrote:
> Or perhaps the person who sent it had gone through a whole album going
> "oh yes - that's sweet - oh damn, that rotter who murdered the McKinnons
is
> right on the front row - that's a good one of Lily - dreadful one of James
-
> and isn't that Rozier lurking around at the back? - this one looks ok -
oh,
> no, it isn't - all four of the back row of that team were at  the infamous
> Muggle Baby Barbecue - oh, soddit, he can have the wedding photo and be
done
> with it.  At least it was never *proved* about Black.  And anyway, doesn't
> little Peter look so cute in his top hat and tail"
Since this is such a long post already, all I can say is, LOL and :)



From mss4a at cstone.net  Tue May 29 20:09:35 2001
From: mss4a at cstone.net (mss4a at cstone.net)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:09:35 -0000
Subject: Time Travel in the Series
Message-ID: <9f0vlv+nd5a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19681

Okay, here are some thoughts on time travel.  Actually I can't take 
credit for this theory, because a friend of mine thought it up, but I 
think it's quite brilliant.  

JKR treats time travel differently from other writers.  Think of the 
Back to the Future movies -- you have different timelines that go on 
concurrently.  I think this is also true in StarTrek.  But we see at 
the end of PoA that in HP everything you do when you go back in time 
*has already been predetermined*, so there is only one timeline.  
Harry did not change the events of the past when he produced the 
Patronus; he intervened to produce the only past that could possibly 
exist.

Now, a possible hole in this theory is when Hermione says, "wizards 
have killed their past or future selves".  If there is truly only one 
possible timeline, it would be possible for a wizard to kill his 
FUTURE self, but not his past self.  Given the way that time travel 
is treated at the end of book 3, I'm willing to believe that Hermione 
misspoke.  :)

If this "one timeline" theory is true, then, no HP character can 
actually change the events of the past; the only thing the Time 
Turner lets you do is be in two places at once.

Thoughts?

Melanie






From bohners at pobox.com  Tue May 29 20:17:53 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:17:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
References: <9f0koq+ujec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <029601c0e87c$faf01280$0fbce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 19682

Gah!!!  I just had an idea after reading Dave's (very excellent) message on
this topic.

Ron says in one of the books that if wizards hadn't married Muggles, they'd
have died out.  Was Voldemort trying to find a way to eliminate this
problem?  In attempting to make himself immortal, was he acting not just for
his own personal profit, but seeking to become the forerunner of a new
"master race" of pure wizards?

I wonder if there is some connection between wizards and Muggles that goes
even deeper than most people, Voldemort included, realize -- that one group
literally cannot exist without the other.  If so, Dumbledore surely knows
this, but also knows that it's not the kind of thing you can just *tell*
someone and have them believe it.  They have to find out for themselves.
But it may be that discovering proof of the wizarding world's total
dependence on Muggles for survival was what brought Snape around and
convinced him that Voldemort must be opposed...

And another thought, on a different topic:

> When some particularly powerful feat such as opening
the Chamber of Secrets is envisaged, it is assumed that this requires
dark magic.  At one point the Hogwarts pupils infer that Harry's
ability as a baby to defeat Voldemort must mean that he is a powerful
dark wizard - nothing good could be that strong.  This is a very
negative outlook indeed.  Likewise, only the horrible Dementors are
regarded as having the capability to keep Voldemort's remaining
supporters in check. <

This is very interesting, and ties into an objection my brother had to the
books -- that he felt evil was consistently portrayed in the books as being
more powerful and more potent (even though not more desirable) than good.
He couldn't see how JKR could balance that out, even with three more books
to go.  But I suspect (especially knowing JKR's fondness for the Narnia
books, and for the writings of G.K. Chesterton) that she *will* uphold the
potency of good, and show the ultimate banality and triviality of evil, in
the end.  It's just a question of how she's going to do it -- and I can't
begin to answer that question.  But I think she's done a very good job of
setting us all up to ask the right questions before she gives us her version
of the answers.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Tue May 29 20:44:58 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:44:58 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
Message-ID: <bc.1535ee25.2845644a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19683

In a message dated 5/29/2001 4:12:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mss4a at cstone.net writes:

<< If this "one timeline" theory is true, then, no HP character can 
 actually change the events of the past; the only thing the Time 
 Turner lets you do is be in two places at once.
  >>

Harry seeing the patronus that his future self creates, conflicts with the 
earlier scene of Harry, Ron and Hermione hearing poor Buckbeak's neck get 
chopped off. If it were consistently one time line, the three would have 
overheard the swears of a frustrated Macnair, not Buckbeak's death.

Jami



From astudill at uiuc.edu  Tue May 29 20:55:26 2001
From: astudill at uiuc.edu (Colonel Astudillo)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:55:26 -0000
Subject: Time Travel in the Series
In-Reply-To: <bc.1535ee25.2845644a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9f12bu+92bq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19684


> Harry seeing the patronus that his future self creates, conflicts 
with the 
> earlier scene of Harry, Ron and Hermione hearing poor Buckbeak's 
neck get 
> chopped off. If it were consistently one time line, the three would 
have 
> overheard the swears of a frustrated Macnair, not Buckbeak's death.
> 
> Jami

actually, i beleive the whole one timeline thing applies here as 
well.  Harry, Ron and Hermione did not hear Buckbeak get killed.  all 
they heard was a chop and a large cry by Hagrid, then they took off.

when Harry and Hermione went back, they detailed all the 
events...Buckbeak escaped, i think the executioner chopped the axe on 
the block out of anger, and Hagrid's cries were of joy...ones which 
are probably hard to tell apart from cries of agony, the source being 
a giant :)

at any rate, they do not hear buckbeak get killed, they only think 
he's killed.  or something like that, my memory is really vague.




From margdean at erols.com  Tue May 29 20:13:58 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:13:58 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
References: <bc.1535ee25.2845644a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B140306.2C73F5A1@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19685

JamiDeise at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/29/2001 4:12:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mss4a at cstone.net writes:
> 
> << If this "one timeline" theory is true, then, no HP character can
>  actually change the events of the past; the only thing the Time
>  Turner lets you do is be in two places at once.
>   >>
> 
> Harry seeing the patronus that his future self creates, conflicts with the
> earlier scene of Harry, Ron and Hermione hearing poor Buckbeak's neck get
> chopped off. 

No, it doesn't -- that's only what they =thought= they were
hearing.  They heard Macnair slamming his axe into the fence in
frustration, and Hagrid crying out in astonishment.  But they
were psychologically prepared to hear the killing stroke and
Hagrid lamenting, so that's what they perceived.

> If it were consistently one time line, the three would have
> overheard the swears of a frustrated Macnair, not Buckbeak's death.

They'd probably beat it before Macnair started cursing.



--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue May 29 21:18:27 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:18:27 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Digest responses - remember to change the header
Message-ID: <00c901c0e884$e7472360$793670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 19686

Hi everyone,

A quick reminder to those of you on Digest setting to change the title of
your response messages to something that relates to the content.  This is
really helpful to people scanning messages to see what they want to read
(and what they might want to ignore).

Thanks for your cooperation.

Neil
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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue May 29 21:19:13 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:19:13 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <029601c0e87c$faf01280$0fbce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9f13oh+7l5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19687

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...> 
wrote:
>
> Ron says in one of the books that if wizards hadn't married Muggles, they'd
> have died out.  Was Voldemort<snip> seeking to become the forerunner of a new"master race" of pure wizards?<snip>
	
> But it may be that discovering proof of the wizarding world's total
> dependence on Muggles for survival was what brought Snape around and
> convinced him that Voldemort must be opposed...

	Or maybe Snape discovered that Voldemort's immortality spells were 
a Ponzi scheme which depended on a constant stream of wizarding 
victims. Voldemort's followers love to bait Muggles, but a good many of 
those killed seem to have been wizards. And it seems to be very 
important that Nagini be fed a wizard or two now and then.
	The dependence on Muggles theory is a common theme in Irish 
folklore and in modern fantasy such as "Battle for the Oaks" by Emma 
Bull.

>  But I suspect (especially knowing JKR's fondness for the Narnia
> books, and for the writings of G.K. Chesterton) that she *will* uphold the potency of good, and show the ultimate banality and triviality of evil, in the end. <<
	
	Some critics seem to think that evil should be shown as 'trivial' 
but I think JKR wants us rather to empathize with the  suffering of 
evil's victims and the faith and courage needed to resist. It would be 
hard to do this and show evil as "trivial" at the same time. I think 
the "wrong will be right when Aslan comes in sight" formula of the 
Narnia books is too simplistic for the world JKR has created. 

Pippin





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 21:27:29 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
In-Reply-To: <9f0vlv+nd5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010529212729.97738.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19688

 ....Hermione says, "wizards have killed their past or
future selves".  If there is truly only one possible
timeline, it would be possible for a wizard to kill
his FUTURE self, but not his past self.  Given the way
> that time travel is treated at the end of book 3,
I'm willing to believe that Hermione misspoke.  :)
> 
> If this "one timeline" theory is true, then, no HP
> character can 
> actually change the events of the past; the only
> thing the Time 
> Turner lets you do is be in two places at once.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Melanie
> 
I don't think Hermione misspoke.  I think that there's
one timeline in PoA because they Hermione goes to so
much trouble to make sure there is.  She prevents
Harry from taking the Invisibility Cloak, thus keeping
Snape from using it and altering the timeline.  I
think that altering the timeline is a huge danger and
something that is discouraged--hence the rarity of
time-turners, and Hermione needing special permission
to use one.  But impossible?  I don't think so, and in
fact, maybe JKR purposely left the door open on this
one...
 
 
 


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From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 21:33:37 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
In-Reply-To: <bc.1535ee25.2845644a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010529213337.8754.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19689


 > Harry seeing the patronus that his future self
> creates, conflicts with the 
> earlier scene of Harry, Ron and Hermione hearing
> poor Buckbeak's neck get 
> chopped off. If it were consistently one time line,
> the three would have 
> overheard the swears of a frustrated Macnair, not
> Buckbeak's death.
> 
> Jami
> 
Check your book again.  They do not hear Buckbeak's
head (not neck) get chopped off; they hear the axe
swing and hit something--which turns out to be MacNair
frustratedly putting it into the wooden fence because
the hippogriff is gone.  They simply assume they heard
the execution.  Also, what they initially interpret as
a cry of despair from Hagrid turns out to be his wail
of joy (apparently with Hagrid, these sound virtually
identical).



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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue May 29 21:39:47 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:39:47 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
In-Reply-To: <9f0vlv+nd5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529141035.02c2a780@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19690

At 08:09 PM 5/29/01 +0000, mss4a at cstone.net wrote:
>Okay, here are some thoughts on time travel.  Actually I can't take
>credit for this theory, because a friend of mine thought it up, but I
>think it's quite brilliant.
>
>JKR treats time travel differently from other writers.  Think of the
>Back to the Future movies -- you have different timelines that go on
>concurrently.  I think this is also true in StarTrek.

And _Red Dwarf_, and even Oz, if you accept the recently published
_Paradox in Oz_ (in which Ozma inadvertently changes the past --
giving us a glimpse of a grim "Pottersville"* version of Oz -- and must
go back in time again and puts things right)...

* As in, the Mr. Potter of _It's a Wonderful Life_, not Harry.  :)

>If this "one timeline" theory is true, then, no HP character can
>actually change the events of the past; the only thing the Time
>Turner lets you do is be in two places at once.

But then you've got a world in which there's no free will, which
always really bothers me, especially in the Hogwarts universe,
given Dumbledore's statements about "the choices we make".

(Many physicists believe that quantum mechanics is only
reconcilable with a universe with multiple timelines.)

My own theory is that occasionally when the Wizarding World
is at the cusp of two important branches in history, someone
glimpses a vision of one possible reality, as Harry did when he
saw his future self.  From this moment, Harry, Ron, Hermione,
and Sirius are actually in an ambiguous "limbo" state until Harry
and Hermione actually go back and resolve everything.  If
Harry had failed, he, Hermione, and Sirius would have vanished
and rematerialized in front of the Dementors, "worse than dead"!

By allowing these kind of temporal "snags" that are "ironed out"
in a few hours, you allow free will and prevent "closed timelike
loops", e.g. future Harry saving past Harry so that he can go back
in time, become future Harry, and save past Harry.  ( As the late
Douglas Adams pointed out, the main problem with time travel
is not one of technology or of paradoxes, but of grammatical
coherence! :) )



                         -- Dave




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Tue May 29 21:48:27 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:48:27 -0000
Subject: West Ham
In-Reply-To: <9emmjn+vgns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f15fb+eehs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19691

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer" <jennifer.k at l...> wrote:
> 
> Doing sort of a sketch on Dean Thomas, I'm searching facts about
> the West ham soccer Team that he is a devoted fan of. 
> Is it a real team? Where are they located? ("west ham" really
> doesn't tell me anything) How long have they played? Where are
> their fans (for the most part) located? (might give some
> eventually indications to where Dean lives)
> Is there any homepage of theirs?

West Ham United FC is a real team (nicknamed the "Hammers") who play 
at Boleyn Ground, Upton Park, London.  The official page is: 
http://www.whufc.com/  and the history section is found at:
http://www.whufc.com/history/knowyour.asp

There you'll find the following excerpts:

"WEST HAM UNITED enjoys one of the proudest traditions for playing
entertaining, attacking football that has thrilled millions since the
East London club formed in 1900, five years after the formation of
our forerunners, Thames Ironworks.

"It is enshrined in Hammers' history that regardless of their status
at any given time, whether challenging for silverware or fighting
relegation, the club has never sacrificed its long-held football
principles. Our knowledgeable fans have come to expect nothing less
and they are rightly proud of it."

[....]

"Three FA Cup victories and a solitary triumph in Europe may not
compare very favourably with the achievements of some of our more
illustrious Premiership rivals, but West Ham United and its
supporters are nevertheless proud of our virtues. 

"Win, lose or draw, enterprising football, played by largely home-
grown players for supporters who appreciate the finer points of the
game. That says so much about what West Ham United represents."


It seems from an outsider point-of-view, that interesting parallels
might be drawn (and this should be unsurprising) with Ron's Chudley
Cannons, and perhaps Rowling had West Ham in mind as the archetype
for her perennially underdog Quidditch team....

....Craig




From bohners at pobox.com  Tue May 29 21:37:04 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:37:04 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
References: <9f13oh+7l5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <030b01c0e887$d0d01260$0fbce2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 19692

> The dependence on Muggles theory is a common theme in Irish
> folklore and in modern fantasy such as "Battle for the Oaks" by Emma
> Bull.

WAR FOR THE OAKS, actually.  But yes, I know what you mean.

>>  But I suspect (especially knowing JKR's fondness for the Narnia books,
and for the writings of G.K. Chesterton) that she *will* uphold the potency
of good, and show the ultimate banality and triviality of evil, in the end.
<<

> Some critics seem to think that evil should be shown as 'trivial'
> but I think JKR wants us rather to empathize with the  suffering of
> evil's victims and the faith and courage needed to resist. It would be
> hard to do this and show evil as "trivial" at the same time.

Sorry, "trivial" was a poorly chosen word.  I certainly didn't mean that the
effects of evil on human beings are trivial, or that the existence of evil
is an inconsequential thing.  What I did mean was that ultimately, good is
going to triumph over evil in such a profound and all-encompassing way that
we will finally realize that no matter how powerful and potent evil may once
have seemed, it is nothing in comparison to the power and glory of good.

> I think
> the "wrong will be right when Aslan comes in sight" formula of the
> Narnia books is too simplistic for the world JKR has created.

Well, there we disagree.  I don't think it's a formula, and I don't think
it's simplistic.  I do agree that there is no Aslan or Aslan-like character
in JKR's universe, but I wouldn't say that makes her a more realistic or
sophisticated author, or one with a better grasp on the nature of good and
evil, than Lewis.  JKR is simply telling a different *kind* of story.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue May 29 21:52:03 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:52:03 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
In-Reply-To: <9f0vlv+nd5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529144004.02ac0a10@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19693

One other thing I've been thinking about in regard to the Time
Turner: Is it a special kind of Portkey?  This would clear up two
things: One, why it transferred H & H to the Entrance Hall as well
as taking them back three hours.  Second and more importantly,
suppose the Triwizard Portkey was designed to return to outside the
maze *and* only a few seconds in time after it departed!  This would clear
up the thing that has been bothering me: why Snape is sitting there on
his keister all the time between feeling the Dark Mark return and
Harry's rematerialization.  This way, there was no pause between
the two events.


                         -- Dave




From tamf at matavnet.hu  Tue May 29 21:52:07 2001
From: tamf at matavnet.hu (Tamfiiris)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:52:07 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9f0koq+ujec@eGroups.com>
References: <9f0koq+ujec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <19994.010529@matavnet.hu>

No: HPFGUIDX 19694

dfrankis at dial.pipex.com wrote:

<regretful snip of a great post>

> I believe that it is this uncertainty of identity that fuels wizard
> prejudice, the devotion of the Death Eaters to Voldemort, and
> ultimately the quest of Voldemort himself to be no longer human.

funny you should mention that... you see, after all this talk of evil
i have had thoughts, about the Dursleys in particular. are they truly
evil? or are they just driven by their intense fear of dropping out of
the norm, and regard their cruelty towards Harry as necessary to
squash the magic out of him?

personally, i see the Dursleys as the perfect material for Death
Eaters of the opposite side - i imagine they would applaud a modern
witch hunt to rid the society of 'those weird people'. they seem like
just the kind of people who would support Hitler & friends.

i think they are mean and annoying, but not because they want to be
evil. they are simply scared. like the wizards who doubt their
wizardhood, these people doubt their muggleness. if somebody evil
turned up to lead them, they would easily follow, but as long as
there's enough space in their cage, they're harmless enough.

ciao
Tamf





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 21:58:32 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:58:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9f13oh+7l5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010529215832.2072.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19695

> But it may be that discovering proof of the wizarding world's
> total dependence on Muggles for survival was what brought Snape 
> around and convinced him that Voldemort must be opposed...


I suspect that Snape became a DE for the same reasons that many young
men (he would have been in his late teens at the very most) join
gangs.  They are looking for acceptance, support, something bigger
than themselves that they can belong to and work for.  Looking cool
to chicks is a plus as well.

Whatever event was the catalyst for Snape's turning against V., it
was probably the culmination of an internal emotional process where
he realized he had been wrong about the benefits of DE-ship.  Since
his personality didn't really change, he simply substituted
Dumbledore in place of V. as his leader and switched sides.  Danger
would not have mattered so much; I do think Snape would view dying on
behalf of the cause as an acceptable (if not desirable) fate.

Snape's big challenge will come if (when?) Dumbledore dies and he has
to choose sides abstract rather than a personal reasons.  If the Good
Guys are lead by Harry Potter, would that have an effect on his
decision?

If he chooses the Good Guys, he will have completed his own
maturation twenty years too late but not soon enough.

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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue May 29 22:00:56 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:00:56 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
In-Reply-To: <bc.1535ee25.2845644a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529145650.02c2c800@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19696

At 04:44 PM 5/29/01 -0400, JamiDeise at aol.com wrote:
>Harry seeing the patronus that his future self creates, conflicts with the
>earlier scene of Harry, Ron and Hermione hearing poor Buckbeak's neck get
>chopped off. If it were consistently one time line, the three would have
>overheard the swears of a frustrated Macnair, not Buckbeak's death.

And at 04:13 PM 5/29/01 -0400 (thirty one minutes earlier!!), Margaret Dean 
wrote:
> > Harry seeing the patronus that his future self creates, conflicts with the
> > earlier scene of Harry, Ron and Hermione hearing poor Buckbeak's neck get
> > chopped off.
>
>No, it doesn't -- that's only what they =thought= they were
>hearing.  They heard Macnair slamming his axe into the fence in
>frustration, and Hagrid crying out in astonishment.  But they
>were psychologically prepared to hear the killing stroke and
>Hagrid lamenting, so that's what they perceived.

Is someone using a Time Turner on this list?  I'm receiving
replies to messages *before* the messages they're replying
to!!  :)



                         -- Dave




From john at walton.to  Tue May 29 22:05:35 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:05:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Henrietta & The Wild Swans
In-Reply-To: <20010529173651.10991.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B739956F.1D16%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 19697

[re: The Gender Classification Debate]

Quite a few of us on the list have had the pleasure of reading "The Wild
Swans", by fellow listee and published author Peg Kerr. (Read it! Read it!)
Someone (I think it was Carole) even started an eGroup to discuss it, and we
got around to chatting about the cover (which shows a woman and is, IMO,
quite "feminine") and the reactions of the men on the list to it. Despite
the fact that there's one male hero and one female heroine in the two
concurrent stories which entwine in the book, the cover seemed to be aimed
at women. I, however, really enjoyed it and was very moved by the whole
book. Highly recommended.

Has anyone else seen this with books you're familiar with?

--John




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue May 29 22:17:43 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:17:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel on the WWW
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529145650.02c2c800@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010529221743.51651.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19698

 > 
> Is someone using a Time Turner on this list?  I'm
> receiving
> replies to messages *before* the messages they're
> replying
> to!!  :)
> 
>                          -- Dave
 
LOL!  You'd think so, wouldn't you?  No, it's just
that there are a lot of different routers out there in
the world sending stuff around the world wide web.
Interesting effect, though, isn't it? 


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From empressmercury at hotmail.com  Tue May 29 22:37:53 2001
From: empressmercury at hotmail.com (empressmercury at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:37:53 -0000
Subject: newbie
Message-ID: <9f18c1+21ef@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19699

Uh, hi.  I'm Gwendalin, aka Cheyenne.  Just call me Gwen for short, 
though.  I've read many fiction pieces (DD & DS, TiP, PoU, STNE and 
the list goes on . . .) and I'm quite eager for conversations about 
them.  
I'm not really sure what else to write so . . . I'll just say good 
bye.  Well, bye!

Oh yeah.  I almost forgot.  I'm friends with Samantha.  And she can 
back this up if you don't believe me.

toodles,
Gwen

P.S. Schnoogles to Cassie Claire!






From matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com  Tue May 29 22:43:16 2001
From: matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com (Matthew Dawdy)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:43:16 -0500
Subject: moving pictures  ... paintings vs. photos
In-Reply-To: <991173128.2002.12027.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBJCDBKKPIKOBACKLBAEBACFAA.matt.dawdy@gpsys-inc.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19700

I just has another thought on the moving pictures.

A painting takes longer than a picture.  So, a picture is pretty much a one
frame snapshot of someone's life -- how they are feeling in the picture
indicates how they were feeling when it was taken, probably.  Happy, sad,
etc -- one emotion or state of mind.

A painting takes so long, they are bound to go through plenty of other
emotions during the sitting.  Which gives the characters in the paintings
more depth if you will.

Take Sir Cadogan for instance -- he is an overly exaggerated character.
However, while he was being painted (in full armor, etc) imagine the
thoughts running through his head.  "I AM the hardiest knight in the world!
I RULE!"

If this is true (and it by no means is proven or anything else), then would
it be possible to start a painting while someone was a baby, put strokes on
it over a period of many years, and then the painting really would embody
most of what that person is like?  It would be interesting if there was one
of Lily and/or James.  Then Harry could really sit down and get to know his
parents.  Or maybe not -- if the transfer of the persons experiences only
took place at the precise moment that the brush was moving along the canvas,
then no way.  No continuity.

I don't know -- half baked idea.  Anyone else have thoughts?

Matt




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Tue May 29 22:58:10 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:58:10 -0000
Subject: Henrietta...
In-Reply-To: <20010529173651.10991.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f19i2+c0nm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19701

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
>  
> There have been loads
> of successful book series featuring girls as the lead
> character--Anne of Green Gables, the Little House
> Books--but those are probably largely popular with
> girls.  Somehow, we seem to be raising boys in this
> culture to believe they can't read books about girls. 
> It's okay, however, for girls to read books about
> boys.  Double standard.

_Is_ it okay for girls to read book about boys?  I don't mean
okay by you, but okay by, oh, hypothetical average parents.

Too often, boys don't read _anything_, _that's_ the problem.
If they do, it probably won't be _Sweet Valley High_.  It might
be Philip Pullman (to name an author who, unlike yours, isn't
long dead).

I used to kind of enjoy Nancy Drew, but for the intellectual
puzzle aspect rather than her social life.

A couple of problems with making Harry a girl: if Dudley
Dursley is still a boy and the boorish favourite son of the
household, the story plays like _Mansfield Park_ - whereas
if Dudley becomes Henrietta's ugly sister in the household
from which she's rescued by magic, that's _Cinderella_.

Indeed, upon not very deep reflection, the princes and
princesses in traditional fairy-stories are esteemed
in their fictional worlds for different reasons:
princes because of their parentage, and princesses
because of their own qualities (such as beauty and/or
good character).  For Harry Potter to be an important
person in his own right - if he is - reverses and
subverts the old stereotype.

> Also, I think I read somewhere that Jo Rowling was
> advised to bill herself on the books as J.K. Rowling
> so that boys wouldn't know right away that a woman had
> written them.  The publishing industry is clearly
> doing nothing to end the double standard.

Well, if presenting their product in a certain way will
alienate some of their paying customers, how do they
justify that to shareholders?  (I presume they have
shareholders...)

At that, I wonder if Bloomsbury knew what they were doing.
A quick check on the children's authors that Amazon.co.uk
are pushing (and they _should_ know what they're doing),
for ages 9-11 and 12-16, shows a moderate majority of women.
It may be otherwise elsewhere...

Anyway, PS is (c)1997, already well into the past - look at
it this way, it's before anyone had ever heard of Harry Potter.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From samanthakent72 at hotmail.com  Tue May 29 23:10:54 2001
From: samanthakent72 at hotmail.com (Samantha)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:10:54 -0000
Subject: *burst out laughing*
Message-ID: <9f1a9u+bv9s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19702

Hi all it's Samantha, thought it would be time to post on this thing. 
first off, schnoogles to Carole for her wonderful advice giving 
sainted self, I'm laying it on a bit think huh? Well all in all luv 
yah Carole. Al: *winks* still no clue lol, Cass: your a sweetie and 
DS16 or whatever betta come out soon! *puts on her stern face* lol, 
Suzie, stop holding grudges hunnie~bunnie *wicked grin* and no, I wil 
not bite you. lol, and to Gwen *coughRebeccacough* hi hunnie, you'll 
be okay, just don't drool all over her lol. Don't ask, inside joke. 
Well I'm off to go serve doughnuts to the masses at Dunkin' Doughnut. 
and side note to Carole. *glares* I hate my job. It does not build 
charecter. It bites monkeys, big harry, rabid monkeys. that smell 
worse then my boss, wich is bad. lol, luv yahz all (well most of 
you), 
Samantha-hates her job-Kent. *grins*




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Tue May 29 23:38:46 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:38:46 -0000
Subject: *burst out laughing*
In-Reply-To: <9f1a9u+bv9s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f1bu6+pavg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19703

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Samantha" <samanthakent72 at h...> wrote:
> Hi all it's Samantha, thought it would be time to post on this thing. 
> first off, schnoogles to Carole......

Well, I'm baffled; I looked up _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find
Them_ and I don't see _anything_ about Schnoogles, but are they
perhaps the same as Puffskeins?

I think my doughnut craving is reduced, anyway, which is good.
Can you please share any similar thoughts concerning cookies
or chocolate? :-)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Tue May 29 23:57:03 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:57:03 -0000
Subject: Eating slugs...
Message-ID: <9f1d0f+95lu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19704

When Ron told Draco to "Eat slugs" I was thinking that it meant 
something along the lines of, pardon the american vulgarity, "Eat 
sh*t".  In my little world, it seems that the reason Ron starts 
belching the slugs is because when Draco hexed/cursed/jinxed him, 
that was the last rotten thing that came out of his mouth.  Perhaps 
it was a hex/curse/jinx that makes you regurgitate the last bad thing 
you thought of.  

The reason I am saying hex/curse/jinx is because I'm not sure which 
is was or really how to tell the difference.  

Michelle <--- just another stupid muggle.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed May 30 00:17:46 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:17:46 -0000
Subject: Profanity (Re: Eating slugs...)
In-Reply-To: <9f1d0f+95lu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f1e7a+vj7r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19705

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" <fyregirl at c...> wrote:
> When Ron told Draco to "Eat slugs" I was thinking that it meant 
> something along the lines of, pardon the american vulgarity, "Eat 
> sh*t".  In my little world, it seems that the reason Ron starts 
> belching the slugs is because when Draco hexed/cursed/jinxed him, 
> that was the last rotten thing that came out of his mouth.  Perhaps 
> it was a hex/curse/jinx that makes you regurgitate the last bad 
thing 
> you thought of.  
> 
> The reason I am saying hex/curse/jinx is because I'm not sure which 
> is was or really how to tell the difference.  
> 
> Michelle <--- just another stupid muggle.

That was my impression too, considering it came after 
Malfoy's "Mudblood" slur. I can't recall the exact book(s) where Ron 
has used some type of profanity, but I remember one passage said 
something to the effect that Hermione exclaimed "Ron!" after Ron used 
some sort of profanity. Then there was another passage in which 
Malfoy says something like "language Weasley".

lol, it would be amusing if Ron called Malfoy an, er..., 'anus' and 
Draco turned into one....

:-D Milz




From mss4a at cstone.net  Wed May 30 00:19:00 2001
From: mss4a at cstone.net (mss4a at cstone.net)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:19:00 -0000
Subject: Time Travel in the Series
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529141035.02c2a780@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9f1e9k+u4ou@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19706

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

> But then you've got a world in which there's no free will, which
> always really bothers me, especially in the Hogwarts universe,
> given Dumbledore's statements about "the choices we make".

Ha!  Great catch!  Yes, you're correct; in fact, my friend who came up 
with this theory happens to be a Calvinist.  :)  Without getting into 
the finer points of the theology, I'll just say that choice/will is 
not incompatible with predestination (though FREE will is).  And I do 
think the notion of "destiny" will become an important one in the 
series--already you have Prof. Trelawney predicting things.  How can 
she do that if they're not already predetermined?

> My own theory is that occasionally when the Wizarding World
> is at the cusp of two important branches in history, someone
> glimpses a vision of one possible reality, as Harry did when he
> saw his future self.  From this moment, Harry, Ron, Hermione,
> and Sirius are actually in an ambiguous "limbo" state until Harry
> and Hermione actually go back and resolve everything.  If
> Harry had failed, he, Hermione, and Sirius would have vanished
> and rematerialized in front of the Dementors, "worse than dead"!

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand.  When Harry passed out, he saw himself 
conjuring the Patronus.  So, basically at that point it was a done 
deal--he had conjured the Patronus--even though he chronologically 
HADN'T yet.  It was already determined.  So how would it be possible 
for him to fail?

Similarly, Barbara Purdom wrote:

> I don't think Hermione misspoke.  I think that there's one timeline 
> in PoA because they Hermione goes to so much trouble to make sure
> there is.  <snip>  

But you still have the problem of Harry conjuring the Patronus, and it 
already having been done--he didn't change the past, creating an 
alternate timeline, he was simply in two places at once, within the 
SAME timeline.  If it were possible in JKR's universe to create 
alternate timelines, I would think it would have been done here.

Geez, the more I think about the plot of PoA the more I appreciate it.

And BTW, I love the idea of the Time Turner being a special kind of 
Portkey.  I always wondered why it took them to the entrance hall.

Melanie





From devika261 at aol.com  Wed May 30 00:42:57 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:42:57 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
Message-ID: <29.15865d65.28459c11@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19707

In a message dated 5/29/01 4:37:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bohners at pobox.com writes:


> > When some particularly powerful feat such as opening
> the Chamber of Secrets is envisaged, it is assumed that this requires
> dark magic.  At one point the Hogwarts pupils infer that Harry's
> ability as a baby to defeat Voldemort must mean that he is a powerful
> dark wizard - nothing good could be that strong.  This is a very
> negative outlook indeed.  Likewise, only the horrible Dementors are
> regarded as having the capability to keep Voldemort's remaining
> supporters in check. <
> 
> This is very interesting, and ties into an objection my brother had to the
> books -- that he felt evil was consistently portrayed in the books as being
> more powerful and more potent (even though not more desirable) than good.
> He couldn't see how JKR could balance that out, even with three more books
> to go.  But I suspect (especially knowing JKR's fondness for the Narnia
> books, and for the writings of G.K. Chesterton) that she *will* uphold the
> potency of good, and show the ultimate banality and triviality of evil, in
> the end.  It's just a question of how she's going to do it -- and I can't
> begin to answer that question.  But I think she's done a very good job of
> setting us all up to ask the right questions before she gives us her version
> of the answers.
> 

I think the reason that many people turned to the Dark Side (and also the 
reason that many more will soon do the same) is that they perceive evil to be 
stronger than good.  For example, Peter Pettigrew's argument in the Shrieking 
Shack in PoA was that Voldemort was so powerful that there seemed to be no 
point in resisting him.  Dumbledore's charge to the students in GoF that they 
must choose what is right instead of what is easy also implies that evil is 
stronger, and more tempting, than good.  However, it is also true that Lily's 
sacrifice saved Harry and therefore could counteract Voldemort's evil.  
Dumbledore also says that Voldemort could not understand something as pure 
and good as Lily's love for her son, and this was the reason that Voldemort 
was unable to touch Harry in SS.  I have a feeling that when we find out more 
about why Voldemort was after the Potters and what exactly defeated him the 
first time (Lily's love?), we will see the power of good over evil.
Devika :) 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed May 30 00:56:32 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:56:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Could Snape be in love with Lily?
References: <9f0jjb+3tg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B14453F.5D708BF8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19708

Welcome, O Enlightened One! Several of we who love Snape think as you
do, for much the same reasons. It is, however, a hot debate to this very
day (raging even as we speak over at Snapefans)--largely because there's
no evidence either way. Yet. Although We Know We're Right, all of us....

My very first post, lo these many months ago, was the very same
question. So welcome to the list, I applaud your fine taste in
characters and perception, and you might want to explore the archives,
too, for some fun with this topic in the past.

--Amanda

ribbony at yahoo.com wrote:

> Hello,
>
> This is my first message1 I have been a lurker for some time but I
> decide to post at last. :) I don't have if this topics have been
> brought up before though.
>
> I think it's very possible that Snape is in love with Lily. It
> couldcertainly  explain why he hates Harry so much, yet protects
> Harry nevertheless.
> Could it be ...?
> 1) He hates Harry because he looks exactly like James, and both of
> them are good at sports (Do not occur to me Snape is a sporty type of
> person, I could be wrong though)
>
> 2) He protects Harry because he's Lily's son
>
> 3) Lily turns him down because of James, so that's why Snape and
> James hate each other. (Love rilvary?)
>
> 4) Snape never insults Lily before. Surely if he hates all the
> Potter, he should hate Lily as well? But no, he has only displayed
> hatred towards Harry and James *only*. Very significant ...
>
> 5) Lily is the reason why both Snape turns to you-know-who and goes
> back to the bright side afterwards. He may resent the fact that Lily
> choose James over him, and that's why he becomes Death Eater. (to get
> revenge). But somehow he cannot see Lily dying and that's why he
> turns into a spy and informs the Potters that Dark Lord is after them.
>
> Just my thoughts ... any comment?
>
> Hime-chan
> PS: I love HP4GU!
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  [www.debticated.com]

>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter
> YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the
> messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
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> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed May 30 01:00:08 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:00:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
References: <9f0koq+ujec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B144617.BD0A4D2F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19709

What happened to your third strand? I was hoping it would be evil by
self-absorption, which would cover Lockhart and the Dursleys--those who
are not evil by nature, necessarily (by that I mean, not consciously
evil), but who do evil things.

Sorry, quick post on a complex topic. Great discussion, David!

--Amanda, whose best friend is married to a David Frank and so has
trouble shaking a mental association of him with you

dfrankis at dial.pipex.com wrote:

> "If you're choosing to write about evil, you really do have a moral
> obligation to show what that means." --J. K. Rowling
>
> Ebony asked:
> What *is* evil, and how is it expressed in the Harry Potter books?
> Conversely, where's the "good" in the series?
> Is it always diametrically opposed to "evil"... or do they sometimes
> exist in the same context, the same scene... even in the same person?
>
> I'm going to cheat a bit and only answer the question What is the
> meaning of evil in the Harry Potter books.  The open question, What
> is evil?, I will not attempt.
>
> I would say there are three main strands to evil in the books.
> The first strand is Voldemort's personal motivation and actions.  At
> first sight, he is almost a cartoon figure of evil.  A number of
> people have remarked that he has in effect lost his humanity, and
> this makes him especially evil.  I'm not sure I agree.  First I think
> that Jo Rowling has introduced the idea that he is not human, (`dunno
> if he had enough human left in him to be killed' ? Hagrid, and `I am
> more than a man' ? Voldemort himself) but she has done this in a very
> finely balanced way, using unreliable witnesses, and insisting on
> essentially human elements (bone, flesh, and blood) in the
> resurrection (or, rather, re-incorporation) spell.  Second, I think
> that to deny Voldemort's humanity may actually reduce the degree of
> his evil.  Isn't it the fact that Voldemort is actually a human that
> makes him so especially evil?  Which is worse, a sort of natural
> force that goes round destroying all good things, or someone who
> still has an inkling left of what they are doing, who still knows on
> the inside what the pain he is inflicting must be like?
>
> The roots of Voldemort's development have been fairly fully discussed
> on the group in terms of childhood abuse.  Note that one negative
> statement we can venture here is that there is apparently no inherent
> Star Wars style attraction to the `Dark Side' for its own sake, and
> so no Manichean view of evil.  The only other point I want to make
> here is that he was abandoned (through death) by his wizard mother
> and rejected by his Muggle father, so that his relationship to both
> sides of his ancestry is deeply fractured.
>
> The second strand is the devotion of the Death Eaters to Voldemort.
> I have not checked all the back-posts, but I don't believe this has
> been very heavily discussed.  Barty Crouch Jr. is a curious mixture
> of vindictiveness and selfless devotion.  He clearly loves Voldemort
> and has enormous faith in him.  In another cause, his singleminded
> pursuit of his goal and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of
> another would be regarded as exemplary.  It is clear that Voldemort's
> hold on him is not one of fear alone.  Of course, he is an unusual
> case among the Death Eaters, but it is still worth asking what it was
> that Tom Riddle was able to offer his followers in the first place.
> We don't yet really know, but two possibilities spring to mind:
> immortality, and a new relationship to Muggles (and mudbloods).
>
> The offer of immortality implicit in the name Death Eater, together
> with Voldemort's apparent resurrection (but he was never really
> dead), his unique claims for himself, his absolute demands for
> devotion, his promises to honour his faithful followers, and the
> acceptance of all these by the Death Eaters gives a strongly
> religious atmosphere to the Death Eaters chapter of GOF.  I believe
> that they are susceptible to all this because they are uncertain of
> who they are, and this brings me to my third strand: wizarding
> identity in relation to Muggles.
>
> It is apparent that the wizarding community is very insecure, and
> subject to many prejudices and fears. Wizards have an apparently
> unreasoning fear of, for example, giants and Parselmouths.  I believe
> their view of house-elves is coloured by fear too.  But their deepest
> fear is of their own powers and how they play out in relation to the
> Muggle world.  When some particularly powerful feat such as opening
> the Chamber of Secrets is envisaged, it is assumed that this requires
> dark magic.  At one point the Hogwarts pupils infer that Harry's
> ability as a baby to defeat Voldemort must mean that he is a powerful
> dark wizard ? nothing good could be that strong.  This is a very
> negative outlook indeed.  Likewise, only the horrible Dementors are
> regarded as having the capability to keep Voldemort's remaining
> supporters in check.
>
> The root of this fear is the fragility of wizarding identity.  They
> believe, not without reason, that if they declare themselves to the
> Muggles, they will be rejected and persecuted.  To justify their
> separation from the rest of humanity they try to give themselves a
> separate identity as `purebloods' ? Fudge's `wizarding pride'.  The
> existence of wizards with Muggle parents however negates this, unless
> they too can be characterised as `mudbloods' and excluded from the
> community (represented in the books by Hogwarts).  They then
> underscore their special identity by demonising the giants,
> rationalising house-elf enslavement, and putting Merpeople and
> centaurs at a distance.  Although most ordinary wizards can be
> assumed, for example, not to go along with the extreme views that
> Muggles should be reclassified as Beasts, they still take comfort in
> the easy assumptions of a Rita Skeeter.
>
> But none of this works.  At bottom they know they *are* human.  But
> the cutting out of a separate `wizarding' identity that tries to deny
> this causes them to fear their own magicality, and to characterise
> unusual powers such as Parseltongue as dark.
>
> I believe that it is this uncertainty of identity that fuels wizard
> prejudice, the devotion of the Death Eaters to Voldemort, and
> ultimately the quest of Voldemort himself to be no longer human.
>
> I would suggest, therefore, that the essence of evil in Harry Potter
> is to refuse to admit to being human, in the case of wizards, to
> being a Muggle who happens to have some interesting and useful gifts.
>
> I'd better stop here, but I'll just point out that the counterpoint
> to all this is Harry's self-discovery, in which his identity starts
> out from his humanity, but embraces his wizarding powers and his
> (extended) family.  Goodness is therefore integrity.
>
> The post is long but big questions require big answers.
>
> David
>
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  [www.debticated.com]

>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter
> YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the
> messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 01:13:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:13:30 -0400
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
Message-ID: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19710

Chapter 10 The Marauders Map

Chapter 10 opens with Harry spending the rest of the weekend in the hospital 
wing, recuperating from his fall.  He has lots of visitors, but doesnt tell 
anyone about seeing the Grim a second time or what he heard when the 
Dementors were on the pitch, which, he now realizes, were his mothers dying 
moments.

After the next DADA class, Lupin tells him hes sorry about the loss (of the 
game and his broom) and Harry finally asks why hes the only person affected 
so strongly by the Dementors. Because you have horrors in your past the 
others dont have, Lupin says, explaining that Dementors suck out happy 
feelings and leave their victims with only their worst memories; Harry tells 
him what they make him hear.  As they talk about Azkaban and Blacks escape, 
Harry recalls that Lupin had some way of repelling the Dementor on the train 
and asks him to teach it to him, and Lupin agrees to begin after Christmas.

There is another Hogsmeade visit the last weekend of the term, and Fred and 
George waylay Harry and give him the Marauders Map, which they pinched from 
Filchs office four years earlier.  Harry is amazed.  He takes the tunnel to 
Honeydukes, which is stocked with a variety of Wonkaesque sweets, and 
surprises Ron and Hermione there.  Hermione protests that he should turn in 
the map because of its valuable information, and that its dangerous for him 
to be in the village, but Ron and Harry argue that Sirius Black cant get 
into Hogwarts via the secret passages (though Harry privately wonders), nor 
track Harry down in the snowstorm, and they head to the Three Broomsticks.

There they overhear a conversation among Fudge, McGonagall, Hagrid, 
Flitwick, and Madam Rosmerta that tells several parts of Blacks story (and 
Harrys) that Harry didnt know: Black was James Potters best friend, best 
man at the Potters wedding, and Harrys godfather; about a week before 
their deaths, James and Lily went into hiding using the Fidelius Charm, with 
Black as their Secret-Keeper; and Black betrayed them, tried to convince 
Hagrid to give Harry to him, and when tracked down by Peter Pettigrew, 
killed him and twelve nearby Muggles with a curse that split the street 
open.  Fudge also tells the others that Black appears to him to be quite 
sane despite rumors to the contrary; Fudge saw him during an inspection of 
Azkaban and Black calmly asked him for his Daily Prophet so he could do the 
crossword (a man after my own heart --Ed.).  The teachers and Fudge depart, 
leaving Ron, Harry, and Hermione stunned.


Chapter 11 The Firebolt

Harry returns to Hogwarts in a daze, wondering why no one has told him any 
of this before, and as soon as possible, finds some privacy and his photo 
album.  There, sure enough, is a picture of Black, though so youthful, happy 
and handsome that hes barely recognizable as the man in the mug shot.  
Filled with hatred and imaginings of the events of twelve years ago, Harry 
is sleepless until dawn.

When Harry rejoins Ron and Hermione the next day, they anxiously try to talk 
him out of any thoughts of pursuing Black.  He doesnt affirm or deny that 
hes considering it, but tells them about hearing his mothers voice when 
the Dementors are near.  Ron suggests a visit to Hagrid, hoping to distract 
Harry, and the visit does have the desired effect, because when they get to 
Hagrids cabin he is distraught over a letter from the Committee for the 
Disposal of Dangerous Creatures setting up a hearing about Buckbeak, and 
Harry, Ron and Hermione turn their attention toward helping him prepare a 
defense.  Hagrid also tells them about his experience in Azkaban, which hes 
never done before.

Christmas arrives and with it, an anonymous gift for Harry: a Firebolt.  He 
and Ron are stunned and delighted; Hermione is worried and suggests that he 
shouldnt ride it.  Just then Crookshanks attacks Scabbers and chaos erupts: 
the Sneakoscope falls out of the trunk, whistling wildly, Ron tries to kick 
Crookshanks, and Hermione removes the cat in a huff.  Harry hasnt seen 
Scabbers in a while and notices that hes looking very sick.

Christmas dinner is notable for the presence of Professor Trelawney, the 
absence of Professor Lupin (sick again, supposedly--though Ron has just told 
Harry that he wasnt in the hospital wing when he claimed to be ill in 
November), and Trelawneys prediction that having thirteen at table means 
the first to rise will be the first to die.  Either Ron or Harry gets up 
first.  They survive to return to their common room, where they are admiring 
the Firebolt when Hermione and Professor McGonagall come in and McGonagall 
insists on having it checked for jinxes before Harry can fly it.  Hermione 
explains their fear: that the Firebolt was sent by Sirius Black.

Questions:

1. It occurs to Harry that the Marauders Map may be a Dark object; it puts 
him in mind of Mr. Weasleys dictum about mysterious magical objects, and he 
hesitates to use it, but overcomes his doubts quite suddenly, as though 
following orders.  What do you make of the pull the Map seems to have on 
him?

2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be?

3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the secret 
passages?  If not, how?

4. Fudge says that Blacks part in the Potters deaths isnt widely known. 
  Is there any significance to the reason why not, i.e., is it deliberately 
being kept secret, and if so, why?

5. How do you explain the discrepancy between Hagrid's account here about 
the motorbike (that Sirius specifically told him to keep it permanently) and 
what he says in PS/SS 1 (that he needs to return it to Sirius)?

6. How does the Fidelius Charm work?  Does it hide you from everybody, from 
one person only, from a selected list . . . ?

7. What about the Marauders Map?  The usual questions: in 2  years, why 
didnt Fred and George ever notice that their brother was frequently 
accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew?  does it show all of 
Hogwarts?  does it show ghosts?  Etc. . . .

8. Lupin says that a boy named Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye to the 
Whomping Willow; Lockhart had a fan named Gladys Gudgeon (CoS 7); any 
relation?

9. Is Snapes vulture-topped-hat cracker favor (a) a plant by Dumbledore, 
(b) evidence that wizard crackers magically respond to the psyche of whoever 
pulls them, (c )  a coincidence, or (d) something else?

10. Is Trelawneys prediction that either Ron or Harry will predecease the 
others at the table going to come true?

11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for him?


Spells/Charms/Nature of Magic ruminations will be posted Wednesday or 
Thursday . . .

Amy Z

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From margdean at erols.com  Wed May 30 00:36:44 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:36:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel on the WWW
References: <20010529221743.51651.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3B14409C.7B0AEF4D@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19711

Barbara Purdom wrote:
> 
>  >
> > Is someone using a Time Turner on this list?  I'm
> > receiving
> > replies to messages *before* the messages they're
> > replying
> > to!!  :)
> >
> >                          -- Dave
> 
> LOL!  You'd think so, wouldn't you?  No, it's just
> that there are a lot of different routers out there in
> the world sending stuff around the world wide web.
> Interesting effect, though, isn't it?

Not to mention that my computer clock is a bit off.  Why, I don't
know . . . =I= didn't set it . . .


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 01:49:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:49:43 -0400
Subject: Time Travel -  3rd task
Message-ID: <F105iRAECJiglPr0Fr20000dc20@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19712

Melanie wrote:

>If this "one timeline" theory is true, then, no HP character can actually 
>change the events of the past; the only thing the Time Turner lets you do 
>is be in two places at once.

I think this is supported by the Buckbeak incident, where JKR definitely 
deliberately sets it up so that we dont actually know what happened the 
first time-Buckbeaks execution and Macnairs temper tantrum sound 
identical.

But its undermined by the basic premise of their going back, which is to 
change things.  Dumbledore says they can save two lives; he believes that 
Buckbeak has already died and that Sirius is going to get his soul sucked.  
Why do anything if the rescue has already been accomplished?  Time has to be 
changeable in some sense in this universe.

Dave wrote:

>One other thing I've been thinking about in regard to the Time
>Turner: Is it a special kind of Portkey?  This would clear up two >things 
><snip first thing>  Second and more importantly,
>suppose the Triwizard Portkey was designed to return to outside the
>maze *and* only a few seconds in time after it departed!  This would >clear 
>up the thing that has been bothering me: why Snape is sitting >there on his 
>keister all the time between feeling the Dark Mark return >and Harry's 
>rematerialization.  This way, there was no pause between
>the two events.

Yeah, Ive wondered a bit what everyone (not just Snape) was doing while 
Harry was in the graveyard; it was such a long time that youd think they 
would start to worry about where all the Champions were (though its not an 
insurmountable plot problem by any mean--maybe it's just taking them a long 
time to find the center).  It also makes the possibility of spectators more 
plausible if Harry and Cedric took the Cup (witnessed by the spectators) and 
then immediately appeared at the edge of the maze.  If they disappeared for 
half an hour, the spectators would worry, wouldnt you say?

Of course, the spectators ought to be a bit worried about Fleur suddenly 
dropping and Krum hitting Cedric with the Cruciatus too . . . back to the 
drawing board on the ol spectator question, I guess.

One other question about the 3rd task:  the description of the Four Points 
Spell has really been bugging me.  This spell doesn't point toward the 
center of the maze; it makes the wand act as a compass.  Now, you can't find 
the center of a maze by consulting a compass, can you?  After a couple of 
turns, it would be useless, because you'd no longer know what direction the 
center was in relation to you.  People who understand orienteering, help me 
out here.

Amy Z
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed May 30 02:34:24 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 02:34:24 -0000
Subject: 3rd task -what were they doing
In-Reply-To: <F105iRAECJiglPr0Fr20000dc20@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f1m7g+sp70@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19713

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> Yeah, I've wondered a bit what everyone (not just Snape) was doing while 
> Harry was in the graveyard; 

	I wrote a long post speculating about this way back when: it's 
number 2355
Pippin





From JamiDeise at aol.com  Wed May 30 02:42:03 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:42:03 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
Message-ID: <b4.16531d85.2845b7fb@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19714

In a message dated 5/29/2001 8:46:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
devika261 at aol.com writes:

<< I think the reason that many people turned to the Dark Side (and also the 
 reason that many more will soon do the same) is that they perceive evil to 
be 
 stronger than good.  >>

those with a propensity toward evil do, in any case!

Again, it's a matter of choices. In the first chapter of PS/SS, McGonagall 
tells Dumbledore he's just as powerful as Voldemort, he's just too noble to 
use those powers. There are those who achieve power by trampling on others to 
get to the top. And others who get there by being boosted by those whom 
they've helped along the way. I have no doubt that the forces of good will 
triumph by the end of the series.

Jami



From JamiDeise at aol.com  Wed May 30 02:42:06 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:42:06 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
Message-ID: <22.16cbab7d.2845b7fe@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19715

In a message dated 5/29/2001 7:11:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes:

<< >If this "one timeline" theory is true, then, no HP character can
 >actually change the events of the past; the only thing the Time
 >Turner lets you do is be in two places at once.
 
 But then you've got a world in which there's no free will, which
 always really bothers me, especially in the Hogwarts universe,
 given Dumbledore's statements about "the choices we make". >>

I don't think free will plays into this "one timeline" at all. It basically 
says you can't go back and change the past, because the effect of someone 
from the past coming back and changing it has already been taken into 
account. 

This could explain why Dumbledore doesn't use a Time-Turner to go back in 
time to save the Potters or Cedric. Since they did die, he knows that no 
future Dumbledore (or anyone else) can go back into the past and undo it. 

It could also tie up some things in the books that seem like loose ends or 
mysteries, but perhaps will be explained in future HP books by people going 
back and doing things. 

This theory of time travel is certainly cleaner than the ones envisioned in 
"Back to the Future," "Frequency," etc., but on the whole, I'd rather have 
the option available in my fiction of going back to change things in the past 
to affect the future.

Jami 



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May 30 02:50:58 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:50:58 -0700
Subject: Schroedinger's Hippogriff (was:  Time Travel in the Series)
In-Reply-To: <9f12bu+92bq@eGroups.com>
References: <bc.1535ee25.2845644a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529193618.02b7c580@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19716

At 08:55 PM 5/29/01 +0000, Colonel Astudillo wrote:
>at any rate, they do not hear buckbeak get killed, they only think
>he's killed.  or something like that, my memory is really vague.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that I think in the Hogwarts
Universe at least, the past can be changed without invoking paradoxes
and "closed timelike loops", *provided* that the persons doing the
changing haven't witnessed the outcome... H, R & H didn't actually
*see* Buckbeak's execution, and what they heard had another possible
interpretation, therefore the past was changable, like the paradox of
Schroedinger's Cat -- Neither cat nor hippogriff are definitively dead
until "the box is open" (so to speak) and they're *observed* to be dead.
Likewise, Harry *could* save everyone from the Dementors because
he saw what he *thought* was his father, but it could actually
have been Harry.  And also, the reason Hermione could *not* go back
and attend the Charms class she slept through is because Harry,
Ron, Flitwick, and the whole class had already mentally registered her
absence... It was too late to change anything in this case.



                         -- Dave




From rick824 at webtv.net  Wed May 30 03:38:19 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:38:19 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <b4.16531d85.2845b7fb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9f1pvb+eue5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19717

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/29/2001 8:46:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> devika261 at a... writes:
> 
> << I think the reason that many people turned to the Dark Side (and also the 
>  reason that many more will soon do the same) is that they perceive evil to 
> be 
>  stronger than good.  >>
> 
> those with a propensity toward evil do, in any case!
> 
> Again, it's a matter of choices. In the first chapter of PS/SS, McGonagall 
> tells Dumbledore he's just as powerful as Voldemort, he's just too noble to 
> use those powers. There are those who achieve power by trampling on others to 
> get to the top. And others who get there by being boosted by those whom 
> they've helped along the way. I have no doubt that the forces of good will 
> triumph by the end of the series.
> 
> Jami 

  I was thinking about Harry and his ability to use magic without his wand.  He blows his Aunt Marge up(not all the way.... think about what his Aunt Petunia would do!) and then opens the cupboard under the stairs with magic.  When both these events occured he was extremely mad at his Aunt.  So what I guess I am wondering is two things.  One can anyone find anyone else that can perform magic without their wands? And if Harry is using magic out of anger wouldnt that make him just a touch evil?  I understand he was upset but to blow another person up is not a good thing!
  Ok one more question!  Why DO the Dursleys keep letting Harry live there?  Is it something that Dumbledore told the Dursleys about Harry that has not come out in the books, or are the Dursleys better people then we are all lead to believe?  
Rick




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May 30 03:45:21 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:45:21 -0000
Subject: Lexicon Time Line Dates?
In-Reply-To: <F2023JkUwWpSWerOc0N0000ffa5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f1qch+3fk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19718

Greetings.

I got back from my weekend of camping in the rain to find a note from 
Doreen that I should take a look at this thread. Sorry I wasn't here 
to jump in. 

Not that it would have helped much.

I'm just as confused as everyone else is on this. I think I have the 
Quidditch Cup figured out, but the House Cup is anyone's guess. I 
have read over these posts and I'll probably use all of your 
brilliant logic and deductions when I edit the timeline this summer.

Actually, I was in Lexicon mode this weekend. Heck, with all the 
rain, there wasn't much else to do out at the campground. So I got an 
early start on a couple of my summer projects. One is the new and 
improved Bestiary, which is now live. I'm still adding creatures to 
it and fielding email from Doreen about all my typos. But go ahead 
and take a look (click on Wizarding World and then Magical Creatures 
to find the link for the Bestiary.) Along with that, I got a start on 
another project that I'm very excited about, called the Wizard's 
Atlas. It's linked under Wizard Places and also cross-linked here and 
there with the Bestiary (which is why I really had to work on them at 
the same time.) There aren't a lot of maps yet, I'm sorry to say, but 
I'm working on it.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
home of the Wizard's Atlas and the Bestiary
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From mcandrew at bigpond.com  Wed May 30 03:48:52 2001
From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (mcandrew at bigpond.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:48:52 -0000
Subject: Profanity - Harry too
In-Reply-To: <9f1e7a+vj7r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f1qj4+mmnn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19719

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" <fyregirl at c...> wrote:
> > When Ron told Draco to "Eat slugs" I was thinking that it meant 
> > something along the lines of, pardon the american vulgarity, "Eat 
> > sh*t".  
> 
> That was my impression too, considering it came after 
> Malfoy's "Mudblood" slur. I can't recall the exact book(s) where Ron 
> has used some type of profanity, but I remember one passage said 
> something to the effect that Hermione exclaimed "Ron!" after Ron used some sort of profanity. Then there was another passage in which 
> Malfoy says something like "language Weasley".


Definitely. I'm sure a lot of bad language flies around Hogwarts, that 
is not reported by JKR because of her young audience.  I think Ron's 
reported profanity happened in PoA, when he had just got detention 
from Snape because he stood up for Hermione when Snape picked on her 
in the DADA class (where Snape was standing in for the sick Prof. 
Lupin), and then he found out his detention task was to scrub out the 
bedpans in the hospital wing, in Muggle fashion - without magic.

I don't think Harry is averse to a bit of schoolboy bad language 
either.  In one of the books (can't remember where) he remarks to 
Malfoy something about Malfoy's mother always looking 'as if she has 
dung under her nose'.  I can't imagine that Harry really used the word 
'dung' - I think JKR was just being very polite about what he really 
said!

Lama





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 03:53:12 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:53:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Schroedinger's Cat 
References: <bc.1535ee25.2845644a@aol.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010529193618.02b7c580@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01c0e8bc$0cce0d60$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19720

Oh, no!  We might want to post up the link to that wonderful post someone
did SOOOO long ago when I inquired "what was the cat, why was it so special,
etc..."  I think Simon was one of the posters.  Not certain of the others,
but it did change the way I look at Cat's and Boxes.

Never thought of Hippogriffs that way, though!  Interesting theory.

(Just don't put Lupin or Sirius in a box!)

> interpretation, therefore the past was changable, like the paradox of
> Schroedinger's Cat -- Neither cat nor hippogriff are definitively dead
> until "the box is open" (so to speak) and they're *observed* to be dead.
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed May 30 04:23:41 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:23:41 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #4
Message-ID: <9f1skd+u4t2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19721

Hello all.  The deadline for this weeks contest is, well about right 
now, actually.  However, I will not be checking the entries until 
tomorrow morning, so you actually have until about noon tomorrow 
(that would be noon EST, Weds May 30).  The contest can be found in 
the Files section in the HP4GU Contest folder, and also back in last 
weeks messages if you want to search for it.  Good luck.

--Joywitch




From mss4a at cstone.net  Wed May 30 04:33:05 2001
From: mss4a at cstone.net (mss4a at cstone.net)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:33:05 -0000
Subject: Schroedinger's Cat
In-Reply-To: <00ba01c0e8bc$0cce0d60$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9f1t61+p0gb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19722

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Oh, no!  We might want to post up the link to that wonderful post someone did SOOOO long ago when I inquired "what was the cat, why was it so special, etc..."  I think Simon was one of the posters.  Not certain of the others, but it did change the way I look at Cat's and Boxes. <

Yes, please!  I'm afraid I don't get the thing about the cat/
hippogriff--it's not dead until it's observed to be dead?  What about 
objective reality?  Or is it all subjective?

Melanie





From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May 30 04:33:33 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:33:33 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!   -- sexism/banality of evil
In-Reply-To: <9eot1v+hr9r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f1t6t+45df@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19723

I think it's interesting that folks are critical of Hermione and 
Molly Weasley for their crush on Lockhart. 

Molly has never even met the man, but is beguiled by his good 
looks...of course so is the newspaper that voted him the smile of the 
week/year, whatever, and Albus Dumbledore (who hired him), and his 
publisher (who printed him).....So I don't think we can blame Molly.

I think it's interesting that literature tends to blame women for 
being manipulative in attracting men,
and blame women for being attracted to good looking worthless men (I 
tend to wonder how much of Gilderoy Lockhart was based on JKR's ex 
husband -- after all, she identifies with Hermione)....

But rarely are men blamed for being attracted to good looking 
worthless women (Veela)...it's the women who tend to be labeled...

anyway, Lockhart was evil. He isn't as smart as Voldemort, or as 
effective. But he was willing to abandon Ginny to V and to kill
Ron and Harry for his own reputation.... that is evil. He had no 
compunction and no guilt. And what about all the other 
wizards/witches from whom he stole memory and reputation?

Those who don't like CoS should listen to it on tape. Jim Dale does a 
remarkable job (including Lockhart saying "harry, harry, harry") I 
love CoS as a result of listening to the tape.

Susan 




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May 30 04:47:57 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:47:57 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <002c01c0e74e$41686580$0f782e3f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9f1u1t+8t5d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19724

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "marshamoon" <marshamoon at g...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>   Susan wrote :
>   I read the Newsweek article and I thought it had some interesting 
>   elements but was mostly gibberish.
> 
>   I have been thinking about evil......I think evil is conscious, a 
>   deliberate choice, planned and calculated. I think that it is 
about
>   an individual getting what they want. That is oftentimes revenge 
or 
>   power and control. They often think they are entitled, that they 
were 
>   treated badly and deserve better, or that they are doing it on 
behalf 
>   of a group that has been treated badly.
> 
>   Many individuals have been treated badly (horrendously abused as 
>   children, to use one example that Newsweek used) and many 
individuals 
>   are part of a group that has been treated badly (such as Native 
>   Americans). Not all individuals who have been treated badly 
become 
>   evil. Some engage in self destructive behavior. Others triumph 
over 
>   their own ill-treatment, and do good.
> 
>   Susan
> 
> 



> Yes, and the most prevalent characteristic of the individuals who 
would be labeled as evil is their total lack of empathy.  I believe 
the Newsweek article pointed this out. It's not that these 
individuals don't know they're hurting someone else, it's that they 
don't care.  They minimize their own deeds, and blame their 
victims.   It appears that when children are abused, they are 
sometimes able to recover if  they are allowed by adults to express 
their fears, their hurt, and understand that it wasn't their fault.  
Individuals who have been the target of emotional or physical sadism, 
and who have no support or understanding, often grow up without the 
empathy skills they have never witnessed.  One of the interesting 
things about the literary persona of Harry Potter (and I think you 
have to credit JKR with a bit of research on this topic) is that 
although he is raised in the Dursley's neglectful home, he had 15 
months of apparently wonderful parental care prior to the death of 
his parents.  Again, there is evidence that children who had a year 
or two of secure loving care in infancy tend to be more resilient and 
able to withstand subsequent hardships.  It does seem that JKR was 
aware of these issues when she constructed Harry's history.  If you 
compare his childhood history to Tom Riddle's, there are obvious 
differences in parental care and societal status that support the 
development of both of their characters; Riddle's as the evil anti-
social psychopath, and Harry's as the reserved, determined, 
observant, and good hero.  
> 
> I'm unlurking because this thread is in my area of expertise. I 
work as a mental health manager/counselor in a forensic psychiatric 
residential rehab center and provide treatment to those who are not 
guilty by reason of insanity.  (Sort of a cross between Azkaban and 
St. Mungo's, although one of my philosophical principles is the 
provision of hope to those I treat.  It's the only way not to become 
a Dementor) 
> 
> 

I'm very happy that you're delurking and are on the list. I am very 
interested in hearing your professional "take" on all of this.

Re: empathy. I wonder if people who are evil do have empathy (which I 
define as being able to feel what the other person feels), but 
delight in the feelings of humiliation, degradation, pain, suffering 
that their victim feels.....

That's different to me than "not caring"....they do care they thrive 
on the victim's suffering...I think...

I struggle with this because this is how I see batterers operating 
(my own professional work is in the area of domestic violence)and it 
makes them seem like "monsters"..but they're not monsters..they are 
among us and are like us...

I guess I differentiate evil from wrongdoing. Everyone does wrong in 
their lives. People make choices every day to ignore wrong doing and 
injustice. 

But that is different than actively embracing evil...clearly Lockhart 
did so (in his planned, calculated campaign to be famous through 
stealing the memories and reputations of his victims)..clearly 
Voldemort and the Lestranges and Lucius Malfoy are evil..their 
wrongdoing is carefully planned out....

Snape, Snape, Snape...he is perhaps the most interesting 
character..where does he fit? what is really going on with him?

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May 30 04:55:24 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:55:24 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <030b01c0e887$d0d01260$0fbce2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <9f1ufs+4man@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19725

.
> 
> Well, there we disagree.  I don't think it's a formula, and I don't 
think
> it's simplistic.  I do agree that there is no Aslan or Aslan-like 
character
> in JKR's universe, but I wouldn't say that makes her a more 
realistic or
> sophisticated author, or one with a better grasp on the nature of 
good and
> evil, than Lewis.  JKR is simply telling a different *kind* of 
story.
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner
> rebeccaj at p...
> http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj


In my opinion, JRK does believe that good will triumph....

But there is a little bit of the deus ex machina element in the 
Narnia chronicles..that in fact, Aslan (or Jesus or Arthur) will 
return and redeem the world. This does not trivialize the struggle or 
suffering of human beings.....


Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May 30 05:00:50 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 05:00:50 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <29.15865d65.28459c11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9f1uq2+f8on@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19726

> 

> > 
> > This is very interesting, and ties into an objection my brother 
had to the
> > books -- that he felt evil was consistently portrayed in the 
books as being
> > more powerful and more potent (even though not more desirable) 
than good.
> > He couldn't see how JKR could balance that out, even with three 
more books
> > to go.  

But JRK clearly indicates that good IS more powerful than evil, or 
else Harry would be dead. 

One of the reasons that I LOVE CoS (while everyone else does not)
is the ending.....there is every reason to believe that Voldemort
will triumph..he has fooled Ginny and everyone else......Harry is 
handicapped by Lockhart's treason, and is left to face Tom Riddle 
alone..

Yet his faith brings Falkes to him, and with help from Falkes and 
Dumbledore, courage (sheer grit), with right on his side, Harry 
triumphs and saves Ginny.

If this isn't good triumphing and being stronger than evil (not to 
mention the fact that V couldn't kill Harry) I don't know what is!

And, of course, in the real world, evil does prevail for a time.
Many, many good people have been destroyed by evil..look at the 
Holocaust, or the murder of civil rights leaders in our own country, 
for example....

Sometimes, you do the right thing and act with courage and you lose.
Our faith and hope and conviction is that right will triumph in the 
end, and I believe that JKR (and Lewis and Tolkien) agreed.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May 30 05:05:23 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 05:05:23 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <3B144617.BD0A4D2F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9f1v2j+goav@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19727

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> What happened to your third strand? I was hoping it would be evil by
> self-absorption, which would cover Lockhart and the Dursleys--those 
who
> are not evil by nature, necessarily (by that I mean, not consciously
> evil), but who do evil things.
> 


But I would continue to argue that Lockhart -- and the Dursleys --
ARE evil.

The Dursleys do not want anyone to know that Harry is a wizard.
They are embarrassed and ashamed. Okay.

But they consciously abuse and neglect Harry. They ignore him 
whenever possible. They shower Dudley with gifts, and give Harry a 
tissue. They ignore his birthday. They lock him in his cupboard.
They imprison him in his room. They do not give him enough food to 
eat. They constantly attack and belittle him. They hit him. They 
threaten him with physical violence. They allow Dudley and his 
friends to beat him up. Etc. Etc. Etc. This is planned and calculated 
evil.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May 30 05:11:09 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 05:11:09 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9f1pvb+eue5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f1vdd+m1v0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19728


> 
>   I was thinking about Harry and his ability to use magic without 
his wand.  He blows his Aunt Marge up(not all the way.... think about 
what his Aunt Petunia would do!) and then opens the cupboard under 
the stairs with magic.  When both these events occured he was 
extremely mad at his Aunt.  So what I guess I am wondering is two 
things.  One can anyone find anyone else that can perform magic 
without their wands? And if Harry is using magic out of anger wouldnt 
that make him just a touch evil?  


of course it doesn't make Harry evil. First, good people do bad 
things.
Second, good people lose their tempers.

But third, and most importantly, Harry was acting in self 
preservation and self defense. Marge has set her dogs on him and 
treats him with total contempt. Why shouldn't he blow her up?
She is the one with power over him, he doesn't have the ethical
restraints that the false Moody should have had when turning Malfoy 
into a ferret......

re: good and evil...

One of the most profound things JRK does in these books is to 
illustrate that evil corrupts and makes people miserable.....
Being good and fighting for justice is far more fun...

Susan




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed May 30 05:20:07 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:20:07 -0700
Subject: Eat Slugs - Newbies - Schnoogles - Chapter Summary - Dursleys
Message-ID: <3B148307.7475C2D2@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19729

Amy Z[achariasdottir] wrote:

> But you do have me wondering how else "eat slugs" might work.

I propose that the Eat Slugs Curse gives the recipient an intense desire
to eat slugs, so that only by the strongest will-power can they prevent
themselves from searching for slugs and eating any that they find.

empressmercury - Gwendalin - Cheyenne wrote:
> I've read many fiction pieces (DD & DS, TiP, PoU, STNE
> and the list goes on . . .) and I'm quite eager for conversations
> about  them.  (snip)

Hi, Gwen, one place which is always yearning to discuss fanfic is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction/messages

>Oh yeah.  I almost forgot.  I'm friends with Samantha.

Samantha wrote:
> Hi all it's Samantha, thought it would be time to post on
> this thing. first off, schnoogles to Carole (snip)
> ...  Al: ... Cass:  ...  Suzie ... Gwen *coughRebeccacough*  ...

Hi, Samantha. Please be a love and 1) if you use the egroup to share
with us, how ever many thousand members we are now, your personal
replies to things said in chat or private e-mail, please give them
enough context so that the rest of us can gossip about it, 2) I bet I
can guess who Carole, Al, and Cass are, but there are quite a few
Suzies, quite a few Gwens,  and quite a few Rebeccas. Please warn us if
one of them is hunebabe.

Robert Carnegie wrote:
> Well, I'm baffled; I looked up _Fantastic Beasts and
> Where to Find Them_ and I don't see _anything_ about
> Schnoogles, but are they perhaps the same as Puffskeins?

The one thing I can definitively say about Schnoogles is they aren't
Beasts. The root form of the word is a verb, and signing off a letter
with Schnoogles is a bit like signing it off with Hugs and Kisses. I
believe it was Cassie who introduced the word to our on-line chat (IIRC
she said she got it from Rave), and it appears to mean any physical
expression of affection, from the most innocent, suitable for using on
other people's children and dogs in their owners' presence, to rather
more erotic. You know how Yahoo!Chat gives one a list of Actions, so I
click on one and the chat text says:
Catlady smashes her head into a brick wall
or
Catlady comforts poor_little_me
?
Well, the most used Action in HP4GU chats is Schnoogle:
Catlady schnoogles rja_carnegie
Catlady schnoogles crazy_ivan   (John, where have you been all these
Sundays?)
Catlady schnoogles flying_ford_anglia
Catlady is a promiscuous cyberschnoogler

Amy Z[ookeeper] wrote:
> 8. Lupin says that a boy named Davey Gudgeon nearly
> lost an eye to the Whomping Willow; Lockhart had a fan
> named Gladys Gudgeon (CoS 7); any relation?

JKR being JKR, I am SURE the answer is Yes. Btw, I absolutely believe
the rumor that Book 4 was going to be HP and the Doomspell Tournament
containing Davey Gudgeon and his magic eye as the new DADA teacher, but
she changed the names because she resented the information having been
leaked. "Almost lost an eye" would then have been a precursor to That
Eye.

> 11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for him?

I'm convinced that Remus fled from Sybil because he recognized that she
was coming on to him real hard. A red herring, nothing to do with
divination or lycanthropy.

Rick wrote:
> Why DO the Dursleys keep letting Harry live there?
> Is it something that Dumbledore told the Dursleys
> about Harry that has not come out in the books, or
> are the Dursleys better people then we are all lead to
> believe?

As far as I know, no one but JKR knows the answer to that question. Some
people have speculated that Dumbledore is paying the Dursleys to keep
Harry, and keeping up appearances does require income. Some people
believe that it is because Dumbledore has convincingly threatened them
of what will happen if they don't keep Harry -- some people think the
threat is "merely" that it will be published in the local paper and
whispered to the local gossips how that Petunia Dursley abandoned her
own sister's orphan child.
==
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed May 30 05:20:38 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 05:20:38 -0000
Subject: JRRT, JKR, UKLG, and the complexity of evil
In-Reply-To: <9em0bp+1030n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f1vv6+pm7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19730


>                     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
>    Critics have been hard on Tolkien for his "simplisticness," his 
> division of the inhabitants of Middle Earth into the good people 
and 
> the evil people.  And indeed he does this, and his good people tend 
to 
> be entirely good, though with endearing frailties, while his Orcs 
and 
> other villains are altogether nasty.  But all this is a judgment by 
> daylight ethics, by conventional standards of virtue and vice.  
When 
> you look at the story as a psychic journey, you see something quite 
> different, and very strange.  You see then a group of bright 
figures, 
> each one with its black shadow.  Against the Elves, the Orcs.  
Against 
> Aragorn, the Black Rider.  Against Gandalf, Saruman.  And above 
all, 
> against Frodo, Gollum.  Against him--and with him.
>    It is truly complex, because both the figures are already 
> doubled.  Sam is, in part, Frodo's shadow, his inferior part.  
Gollum 
> is two people, too, in a more direct, schizophrenic sense; he's 
always 
> talking to himself, Slinker talking to Stinker, Sam calls it. . . . 
> Frodo and Gollum are not only both hobbits; they are the same 
> person--and Frodo knows it.  
> 
>                     * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 

Fascinating discussion.


Yet, I would suggest that Tolkien is NOT simplistic. He has quite a 
few good characters who fall into evil, and several characters who 
are not one or the other.

Boromir is a good man who succumbs to ambition and pays the 
consequences. Aragorn celebrates Boromir in song AFTER Boromir has 
tried to take the ring from Frodo, but failed.  Galadriel is tempted 
by the dark side, but prevails.
Saruman was once good, but falls. Theoden is a good man who does bad 
things while under the influence of Grima Wormtongue. Throughout 
LOTR, you see the complexity of human nature.  Many good characters 
cannot rise to the level of Frodo's heroism (the Hobbit who stays in 
the Shire rather than accompanying Frodo, or Butterburr who keeps the 
inn at Bree). I would suggest that there is a clear demarcation 
between good and evil acts, and that the good person keeps trying to 
be good, and the evil person gives themselves over to evil.

susan




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Wed May 30 06:58:17 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 07:58:17 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11 - Motorbike discrepancy
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000101c0e8d5$e7afa560$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19731

I've wondered about the motorbike myself (why did it escape the attention of
Arthur Weasely or his predecessor in the office?)  but my thoughts go
something like this:-

Hagrid arrives at the smoking ruins of the cottage to find Lily and James
dead and the Potter house in ruins.  He also finds Sirius, in shock, having
realised that Pettigrew must have betrayed them.  Over the past year Sirius
had believed that Remus had turned traitor (why? lingering anti werewolf
feeling even among those who should know better?  Or was Lupin  acting as
yet another double agent?) and the knowledge of Pettigrew's treachery
doesn't immediately exonerate Lupin - either one or both of his friends must
be a traitor.  Sirius and Hagrid argue over custody of Harry, whom Sirius
regards as his first responsibility.  Having lost that argument, Sirius
decides to go and kill Pettigrew.  He doesn't tell Hagrid, who would
probably be sympathetic if he knew Pettigrew had betrayed the Potters
because Hagrid is going straight back to Dumbeldore.  He probably intends to
turn himself in after killing Pettigrew and/or go after Lupin, who if he is
a Voldemort supporter is likely to be a much more dangerous proposition than
Pettigrew.  Accordingly, he tells Hagrid "take the bike, I don't need it any
more".

Hagrid, while flying back to Privet Drive, takes this extravagant statement
as being the result of Sirius' emotional state and regards the bike as
having been loaned to him.  Once he drops off Harry his intention is to go
back, calm Sirius down, probably give him a few drinks and say "I've looked
after yeh bike.  I knew yeh didn't really mean to give it away."

However, before he can return the bike the Pettigrew story breaks, Sirius'
last words to him take on a new significance, and by 12 years later Hagrid's
view about their conversation is "how could I have been so blind?"

Susan





From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed May 30 07:52:45 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:52:45 +0100
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat and schnoogles
In-Reply-To: <9f1t61+p0gb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEAJDKAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 19732

Dee: <<<Oh, no!  We might want to post up the link to that wonderful post
someone did SOOOO long ago when I inquired "what was the cat, why was it so
special, etc..."  I think Simon was one of the posters.  Not certain of the
others, but it did change the way I look at Cat's and Boxes.>>>

Melanie: <<<Yes, please!  I'm afraid I don't get the thing about the
cat/hippogriff--it's not dead until it's observed to be dead?  What about
objective reality?  Or is it all subjective?>>>

The description of the hypothetical Schrodinger's Cat experiment is contained
in message 1328 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/1328).

Other messages on the topic: 1321, 1323, 1325, 1326, 1329, 1330, 1331, 1332,
1333, 1335, 1336, 1339, 1343, 1348, 1352, 1356 and 1361
I have not reread any of these extra messages so I do not know how relevant
they are to the topic - they are all the ones mentioning Schrodinger.

Robert: <<<Well, I'm baffled; I looked up _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find
Them_ and I don't see _anything_ about Schnoogles, but are they perhaps the
same as Puffskeins?>>>

Schnoogles - the great debate reopens. This is a term derived in fanfic to
describe a sort of hug. Since then it has started to enter into the vocabulary
of some members of the group, much to the confusion of others.



Simon (2 down and 2 to go)
--
"Do not wear yourself out to get rich. Have the wisdom to show restraint."
Proverbs 23:4
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 30 07:58:55 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 07:58:55 -0000
Subject: Sirius best man photo
In-Reply-To: <000601c0e876$445ceee0$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9f297v+k0v9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19733

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> >going back to the post when someone said how
> >insensitive it was of someone to send Hagrid a photo
> with Sirius in it for Harry's album (because they
> >thought Sirius was his parents murderer) - perhaps
> Sirius was hidding at the time so they thought 'oh
> here's one without that evil Best Man in it, we'll
> >send that one'.
> 
> Or perhaps the person who sent it had gone through a whole album 
going
> "oh yes - that's sweet - oh damn, that rotter who murdered the 
McKinnons is
> right on the front row - that's a good one of Lily - dreadful one 
of James -
> and isn't that Rozier lurking around at the back? - this one looks 
ok - oh,
> no, it isn't - all four of the back row of that team were at  the 
infamous
> Muggle Baby Barbecue - oh, soddit, he can have the wedding photo 
and be done
> with it.  At least it was never *proved* about Black.  And anyway, 
doesn't
> little Peter look so cute in his top hat and tail"
> 
> Susan

Wouldn't it be doing Harry a disservice to airbrush his parents' best 
man out of history just because he's an evil murderer? If Harry 
hadn't found *any* pictures of Sirius it would just have deepened his 
paranoia about how nobody tells him any of the important stuff (OK I 
know that 90% of the time he has no curiosity about it, but still)

David




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 30 08:15:32 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:15:32 -0000
Subject: Time Travel - veering OT
In-Reply-To: <9f0vlv+nd5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f2a74+jf8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19734

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mss4a at c... wrote:
> Okay, here are some thoughts on time travel.  Actually I can't take 
> credit for this theory, because a friend of mine thought it up, but 
I 
> think it's quite brilliant.  
> 
> JKR treats time travel differently from other writers.  
> Melanie

Actually the various views of time travel have been fairly 
extensively covered in science fiction.  For an extremely funny 
version that takes essentially the same approach as JKR, try 'The 
Technicolor Time Machine' by Harry Harrison.

Asimov and Heinlein also had a go. Ursula LeGuin's Lathe of Heaven is 
in the same ball park.

David




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May 30 09:03:23 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:03:23 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11 - Motorbike discrepancy
In-Reply-To: <000101c0e8d5$e7afa560$0101010a@w98-1>
Message-ID: <9f2d0r+ut2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19735

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
Over the past year Sirius
> had believed that Remus had turned traitor (why? lingering anti 
werewolf
> feeling even among those who should know better?  Or was Lupin  
acting as
> yet another double agent?) and the knowledge of Pettigrew's 
treachery
> doesn't immediately exonerate Lupin - either one or both of his 
friends must
> be a traitor.  

I have always had a problem with this.  I think that Sirius must have 
had other grounds for believing the spy to be Lupin.  If James and 
Sirius thought so much of Lupin that they became animagi to ease his 
transformations - and in doing so showed that they didn't have any 
prejudices about werewolves - how is it at a later date these 
prejudices somehow manifested themselves as mistrust over who was 
spying for Voldemort?  

My guess is that it was a process of elimination.  They discounted 
Pettigrew, although why, I can't imagine, and therefore this left 
only Lupin.  Another idea could be that they suspected that Lupin was 
under the imperious curse.  The only other thing I can think of is 
that they thought that Voldemort may have some kind of influence over 
werewolves, but in my mind, this doesn't seem very plausible, as they 
would know that Lupin is only affected at certain times of the month, 
and that during the rest of the time, he is as human as everyone else.

Catherine  




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May 30 09:17:41 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:17:41 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <20010529175602.49103.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f2drl+sftb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19736

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> Dave raises a lot of great points.  He also wrote: 
> 
> > Barty Crouch Jr. is a curious mixture of
> vindictiveness and selfless devotion.  He clearly
> > loves Voldemort and has enormous faith in him.  In
> another cause, his singleminded pursuit of his goal
> and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of 
> > another would be regarded as exemplary.  It is clear
> > that Voldemort's hold on him is not one of fear
> alone.  Of course, he is an unusual case among the
> Death Eaters...
> There's some major stuff in the books having to do
> with people's reactions to their fathers.  One has to
> wonder, how would Harry have interacted with his own
> father, had James lived?
> 

I can't add anything about Harry's interaction with James - I need to 
think about it, but I have some thoughts on Barty Crouch jnr.

Is the man a hypocrite?  We know that he holds himself up to be 
Voldemort's most faithful servant.  He seems to revere him, love him -
 no fear involved here.  BCJ also hates with a passion all the death 
eaters who managed to escape Azkaban by renouncing Voldemort, or 
pretending that they were under the imperious curse, such as Lucius 
Malfoy.  

He says that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant and that he, 
personally, never dreamed of renouncing him.  I think that there is 
some very selective memories going on here.  IIRC, BCJ, when being 
sentenced by his father screams and pleads with him not to send him 
back to Azkaban, protests his innocence and says that he never had 
anything to do with torturing the Longbottoms.  This is in contrast 
to the Lestranges, who are truly faithful, and who accept their 
sentences and tell the court that the Dark Lord will rise again.  
They certainly do not renounce Voldemort.  

I admit that BCJ does help them try and find Voldemort after he has 
lost his powers, but he certainly denies his involvement.  Therefore, 
how can he say that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant?  I am of 
the opinion that he considers V as a father figure, and does see 
himself as a faithful servant - but I also think that he was 
resentful of the death eaters who walked free because they managed to 
escape the experience of Azkaban, unlike himself.  He was stupid 
enough to get caught - they weren't.

Catherine




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 09:25:01 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:25:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f2e9d+4te1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19737

> Questions:
> 
> 
> 2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be?

 A fizzing whizzbee.
> 
> 3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the secret 
> passages?  If not, how?

 Maybe Crookshanks show him how to get in through the route the pets 
use to move about the castle.
> 
> 4. Fudge says that Black's part in the Potters' deaths "isn't 
widely known." 
>   Is there any significance to the reason why not, i.e., is it 
deliberately 
> being kept secret, and if so, why?

 This could explain why the Potters friends sent Harry photos with 
Sirius in, they didn't know that he was supposed to be the person 
that led Voldie to the Potters. Although they were probably aware 
that he was a death eater.
 The fact that not many people know what Sirius was supposed to have 
done suggests to me a ministry cover up. If it had been widely told 
that Sirius had helped kill the Potters a trial may have been 
demanded by the ordinary wizarding people, especially as this was the 
event that toppled Voldie. And perhaps some death eaters in the 
ministry such as Augustus Rookwood knew about Peter but wanted to get 
rid of Sirius. 
> 
> 5. How do you explain the discrepancy between Hagrid's account here 
about 
> the motorbike (that Sirius specifically told him to keep it 
permanently) and 
> what he says in PS/SS 1 (that he needs to return it to Sirius)?

 I agree with Susan on this.
> 
> 6. How does the Fidelius Charm work?  Does it hide you from 
everybody, from 
> one person only, from a selected list . . . ?

 Later on in the books Sirius says I think he went from Peter's house 
when he found he was missing to the Potters. So he obviously knew 
where they were. While elsewhere it says that Voldemort could be 
staring through the Potters windows at them but wouldn't know they 
were there unless the secret keeper gave up the secret.If my memory 
is wonky please tell me.
 But this suggests that it hides your actual presence from all people 
but not the location. Voldie and the DEs could have searched all the 
places the Potters may have been, even Godric's Hollow but would have 
been unaware that the Potters were there until Peter broke the charm. 
> 
> 7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual questions: in 2 ? 
years, why 
> didn't Fred and George ever notice that their brother was 
frequently 
> accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew?  does it show all of 
> Hogwarts?  does it show ghosts?  Etc. . . .

 The usual answers. I think the map only show you things that may 
effect your marauding within a certain range or things that you 
especially want to see such as the location of Snape. If ickle 
Ronniekins wasn't going to get in the twins way they'd probably not 
even see him and Peter on the map. It seems to show a wide range of 
Hogwarts, I'm not sure about all. And it probably show the ghosts. 
Why? because they could go and tell Filch about the mischief you were 
planning.  
> 
> 8. Lupin says that a boy named Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye to 
the 
> Whomping Willow; Lockhart had a fan named Gladys Gudgeon (CoS 7); 
any 
> relation?

 Probably the wizarding world isn't huge. And wasn't Davey a good red 
herring for book 4 when all JKR would say is that the new DADA 
teacher had a magic eye.
> 
> 9. Is Snape's vulture-topped-hat cracker favor (a) a plant by 
Dumbledore, 
> (b) evidence that wizard crackers magically respond to the psyche 
of whoever 
> pulls them, (c )  a coincidence, or (d) something else?
> 
 I would hope it isn't (a) that would be fairly mean of Dumbledore, 
and think that (b) is possibly the most likely.

> 10. Is Trelawney's prediction that either Ron or Harry will 
predecease the 
> others at the table going to come true?
>
 If it does it will occur in some unexpected way. 
 
> 11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for 
him?

 Wouldn't you all that woman seems to predict is doom and gloom and 
death. And apart from that, Lupin may be afraid that she'll let it 
slip that he's a werewolf in order to seem impressive in from of her 
students.

 Jen




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 09:45:35 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:45:35 -0000
Subject: Paintings 
In-Reply-To: <NFBBJCDBKKPIKOBACKLBAEBACFAA.matt.dawdy@gpsys-inc.com>
Message-ID: <9f2ffv+ej86@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19738

Are any of the painting of anyone who has lived? 
I do not remember any statement about the individuals 
life, only statements about the paintings character. The 
mermaid, knight, fat lady, and her friend violet may only 
exist within the paintings. 


Bugg 






From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 30 10:06:58 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:06:58 -0000
Subject: Lexicon Atlas - Hairy McBoons
In-Reply-To: <9f1qch+3fk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f2go2+ksme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19739

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> Greetings.
So I got an 
> early start on a couple of my summer projects. One is the new and 
> improved Bestiary, which is now live. I'm still adding creatures to 
> it and fielding email from Doreen about all my typos. But go ahead 
> and take a look (click on Wizarding World and then Magical 
Creatures 
> to find the link for the Bestiary.) Along with that, I got a start 
on 
> another project that I'm very excited about, called the Wizard's 
> Atlas. It's linked under Wizard Places and also cross-linked here 
and 
> there with the Bestiary (which is why I really had to work on them 
at 
> the same time.) There aren't a lot of maps yet, I'm sorry to say, 
but 
> I'm working on it.
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> home of the Wizard's Atlas and the Bestiary
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon


The lexicon gets better and better.  How did you get the Unplottable 
Quintapeds onto the Britain map?  Truly you are a wizard of awesome 
powers

David





From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Wed May 30 10:33:44 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:33:44 -0000
Subject: The Dursley's and why Harry stays there...
Message-ID: <9f2ia8+3atl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19740

Here's my theory on why Harry always goes back to the Dursley's over 
summer break ... Voldemort can't find him there.  I think Privet 
Drive, perhaps just Number 4, perhaps the whole area has been made 
unplottable.  Of course, I could be proven very wrong, depending on 
what happens at the beginning of Book 5.  But it would make sense 
that someone, perhaps Dumbledore, worked a spell after James and Lily 
died when he knew that Harry would be going to the Dursley's.  It 
would explain why the DE's never came for him when he was still very 
small.  This theory also goes along with the Arabella 
Figg/animagus/there to protect Harry theory, which IMHO, is one of 
the best theories!

Michelle :)  <--- dumb, but happy muggle




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 12:00:48 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:00:48 -0000
Subject: Schroedinger's Stag
Message-ID: <9f2ndg+1un4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19742

Dave wrote:

>I forgot to mention in my previous post that I think in the Hogwarts
>Universe at least, the past can be changed without invoking paradoxes
>and "closed timelike loops", *provided* that the persons doing the
>changing haven't witnessed the outcome..

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one.  Even magic can't 
rescue us from the paradoxes that are inherent in time travel.  The 
paradox of changing what has already, in one sense, been changed will 
remain.  

Besides, FirstHarry =did= witness the presence and actions of 
SecondHarry--he even saw him, though he didn't realize he was seeing 
him.  If we could follow out the life of FirstHarry without the time 
travel loop, we'd see someone who spent the rest of his life wondering 
if he'd seen his father that night . . . his life =has= been changed 
by seeing his future self.

But anyway, the paradox stands even setting aside the fact that 
FirstHarry saw his time-traveling self:

The only reason SecondHarry cast the Patronus--the thing that made him 
able to do it--was that FirstHarry saw him do it.  So which happened 
"first"?  It can't be that FirstHarry happened "first," because 
FirstHarry witnessed SecondHarry conjuring the Patronus.  It can't be 
that SecondHarry happened "first," because he only conjured the 
Patronus because FirstHarry had seen it conjured.

Therefore, it is impossible for either one of them to have happened 
before the other.  Each event is the cause of the other.

Time travel screws with causality and is therefore inherently 
paradoxical.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
 "And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school 
 song!" cried Dumbledore.  Harry noticed that the other 
 teachers' smiles had become rather fixed.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed May 30 12:35:42 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:35:42 -0000
Subject: Lexicon Atlas - Hairy McBoons
In-Reply-To: <9f2go2+ksme@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f2peu+ajtc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19743


> The lexicon gets better and better.  How did you get the 
Unplottable 
> Quintapeds onto the Britain map?  Truly you are a wizard of awesome 
> powers
> 
> David

Well, it's far from exact. What exactly IS the northern tip of 
Scotland anyway? It could be anywhere along there, or north in the 
islands.

And when I went to Scotland to look for it, my darn GPS system went 
all kaflooie on me for no apparent reason. Weirdest thing.

Steve Vander Ark - Plotting the Unplottable
The Harry Potter Lexicon
home of the Wizard's Atlas and the Bestiary
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 12:39:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:39:42 -0000
Subject: Paintings
In-Reply-To: <9f2ffv+ej86@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f2pme+2u50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19744

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Are any of the painting of anyone who has lived? 

The ones in Dumbledore's office are of past headmasters and 
headmistresses.  We don't see them doing anything very interesting 
(they're sleeping in GF), but I bet when they're awake they retain 
some of the personality of the original person.  That could be very 
annoying, having a dozen of your predecessors literally looking over 
your shoulder ("Writing away for another DADA professor, hmm, Albus?  
I told you the werewolf was a bad risk, but would you listen to me?  
No . . .").

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------
 "And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
 "Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
 "Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
                               --HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------------------




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed May 30 12:47:41 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:47:41 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Virus! :-(
In-Reply-To: <005f01c0e8ff$6a578900$c22a07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEANDKAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 19745

<<<Subject: URGENT - VIRUS ELIMINATION>>>


The file alerted to us as being a virus is probably not a virus. It is part of
MS Windows. You will find the file on your computer, assuming you are running
MS Windows. The file sulfnbk.exe should be found in the following directory:
C:\Windows\Command (or equivalent if your computer is set up slightly
differently). If it is in a different directory then it may be a virus, but it
is highly unlikely that you will locate it elsewhere. The message being sent
out is part of a known hoax and though it has been known for a virus to be
given the same name it is highly unlikely that anyone has this virus.

More information at:
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/sulfnbk.exe.warning.html

Please, if you are forwarded a virus warning, do not at first forward it on.
Most are hoaxes. Start by going to one of the big virus checking companies
(McAfee, Symantec, CAI) and search their database of known virus warning and
hoaxes. Only if you find it to be an actual virus should you then consider
forwarding the warning.

More trouble can be caused by following the instructions in a hoax virus
report than by catching most viruses. Some of the hoaxes attempt to get you to
delete important files from your computer. Please check the warnings first.



Simon
--
"I was a workaholic. I was up to three bottles of workahol a day." - Paul
Merton
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Wed May 30 13:01:06 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:01:06 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time Travel -  3rd task
Message-ID: <6.175f9f94.28464912@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19746

In a message dated 5/30/2001 1:22:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:

<< But it?s undermined by the basic premise of their going back, which is to 
 change things.  Dumbledore says they can save two lives; he believes that 
 Buckbeak has already died and that Sirius is going to get his soul sucked.  
 Why do anything if the rescue has already been accomplished?  Time has to be 
 changeable in some sense in this universe. >>

Just as Harry realized that he had sent his own Patronus and thereby knew he 
had to conjure a Patronus to save him and Hermione, I think Dumbledore 
realized that he had sent Harry and Hermione into the past to save Buckbeak, 
and knew to do it.

Jami



From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 13:08:36 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:08:36 -0000
Subject: Profanity - Harry too
In-Reply-To: <9f1qj4+mmnn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f2rck+cafj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19747

Lama wrote:
> I don't think Harry is averse to a bit of schoolboy bad language 
> either.  In one of the books (can't remember where) he remarks to 
> Malfoy something about Malfoy's mother always looking 'as if she 
has 
> dung under her nose'.  I can't imagine that Harry really used the 
word 
> 'dung' - I think JKR was just being very polite about what he 
really 
> said!
> 
> Lama

(I don't know, I like the word "dung" personally.  It's a very harsh 
word to hear.  I think it really sounds like what it is.  Sh*t 
wouldn't have made the same sort of impression of a stench.)

And don't forget Ron's, "Hey Pavarti, can I get a look at Uranus?" in 
Divination.  (snicker snicker -- CLASSIC teenage boy behavior -- I 
love Ron.)
  
Also, Cedric said "Hell" in the maze as Krum attacked him.  I think 
we'll see more and more profanity as the kids age.  It's part of 
growing up.  (I knew I was an adult when I shouted F- You at someone 
in traffic with my mother in the car, and she didn't even get mad -- 
she just flipped him off too.) 

Stephanie




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 13:09:02 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 06:09:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <9f2e9d+4te1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010530130902.5921.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19748


  > 
>  This could explain why the Potters friends sent
> Harry photos with 
> Sirius in, they didn't know that he was supposed to
> be the person 
> that led Voldie to the Potters. Although they were
> probably aware 
> that he was a death eater.

How?  Didn't anyone notice when they arrested him that
he didn't have the Dark Mark?  Wouldn't a Death Eater
always have this? 
 
> > 7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual
> questions: in 2  
> years, why 
> > didn't Fred and George ever notice that their
> brother was 
> frequently 
> > accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew? 
 
Better still, wouldn't it have shown PERCY with Peter
Pettigrew? The twins were at school for a couple of
years before Ron arrived, and during that time,
Scabbers belonged to Percy.  They seemed to derive a
great deal of pleasure from doing things to annoy
Percy; it seems they would have used the map to locate
him for the purpose of practical joking, and seen
Pettigrew near him... 
  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 13:19:44 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:19:44 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
References: <20010530130902.5921.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE4246Nwtx4ZQUo77sG00004645@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19749

Barb: How?  Didn't anyone notice when they arrested him that
he didn't have the Dark Mark?  Wouldn't a Death Eater
always have this?

Perhaps the aurors wouldn't know where to look for it, and perhaps it's not
permanent, like Harry's scar. You notice Snape says it's not as clear as an
hour ago, when it burned black. This implies you can only see it if Voldy is
nearby. Also, you notice that only certain DE's apparated at Voldy's call.
This implies that only the top DE's may have had it.

Vicky



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 13:42:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:42:28 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <20010530130902.5921.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f2tc4+6ffn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19750

Barbara wrote:

 Didn't anyone notice when they arrested him that
> he didn't have the Dark Mark?  Wouldn't a Death Eater
> always have this? 

The Dark Mark can't be widely known, because Sirius doesn't know about 
it even after 12 years in Azkaban.

I don't believe it's visible most of the time.  The DEs are an 
underground movement; there's no way they'd carry an obvious and 
permanent sign of their membership.

JMHO,
Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
 "And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could =never
 stop reading=!  You just had to wander around with your nose 
 in it, trying to do everything one-handed."
                    --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------------------




From dosser at btinternet.com  Wed May 30 13:47:58 2001
From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:47:58 +0100
Subject: Snape's hat
Message-ID: <001201c0e90f$52e207e0$785c01d5@chris>

No: HPFGUIDX 19751

"> 9. Is Snape's vulture-topped-hat cracker favor (a) a plant by 
Dumbledore, 
> (b) evidence that wizard crackers magically respond to the psyche 
of whoever 
> pulls them, (c )  a coincidence, or (d) something else?"

I think there could be some connection with Neville Longbottom's grandmother and her headwear.  She favoured just such a hat and Neville dressed the boggit/Snape creature in vulture topped headwear to make it less frightening to him.  Maybe the confidence Neville gained through this lesson with Lupin encouraged him to put a "ridiculus" charm on Snape's cracker!

Chris




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed May 30 13:57:41 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:57:41 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <20010530130902.5921.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f2u8l+ql3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19752

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> 
  
> > > 7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual
> > questions: in 2 ? 
> > years, why 
> > > didn't Fred and George ever notice that their
> > brother was 
> > frequently 
> > > accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew? 
>  
> Better still, wouldn't it have shown PERCY with Peter
> Pettigrew? 

My theory is that Peter, being one of the map's authors, was able to 
somehow cast a spell on Fred and George so that they could not read 
his name on the map. Peter wrongly assumed that the map would then 
stay in F & G's hands permenantly.

  - CMC




From cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com  Wed May 30 14:05:48 2001
From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com (cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:05:48 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f2unt+3cki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19753

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
Hi all, I'm new in the group and thought it would be good if I just 
jumped right in and didn't lurk around for too long. I'm a 24 y/o 
female from the US, and I thought joining the group might help my 
harry potter withdrawal. 

> Questions:
> 
> 1. It occurs to Harry that the Marauder's Map may be a Dark object; 
it puts him in mind of Mr. Weasley's dictum about mysterious magical 
objects, and he hesitates to use it, but overcomes his doubts "quite 
suddenly, as though following orders."  What do you make of the pull 
the Map seems to have on him?

This is a really good question. You would think that Harry would have 
learned his lesson from Tom Riddle's diary but alas teenage boys, (and 
girls too) often have a very hard time resisting temptation, not to 
mention that the twins had been using it for quite sometime without 
encountering any trouble.

2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be?

Definitely Chocolate frogs, I'd love to have one of those collector's 
cards.
 
3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the secret 
passages?  If not, how?

I definitely think that Sirius has been using the whomping willow 
entrance. Number one because he's probably been hiding out in the 
shrieking shack and because he finds H,H & R right around that spot. 
He's incredibly weak from Azkaban I doubt he has the strength to get 
in any other way. But I do have a question. Sirius has to use the 
wands he takes from Harry so how does he turn into an animagus, is 
this something that doesn't require a wand? Just a thought.
 
4. Fudge says that Black's part in the Potters' deaths "isn't widely 
known." Is there any significance to the reason why not, i.e., is it 
deliberately being kept secret, and if so, why?

I don't really have an answer for this but a comment, why is Fudge so 
determined not to believe V is back? Doesn't power (such as being 
Minister of Magic) do funny things to people? I'm not so sure about 
this guy.

6. How does the Fidelius Charm work?  Does it hide you from 
everybody, from one person only, from a selected list . . . ?

Maybe just from Evil. Maybe the reason Sirius knew where they were was 
because he really wasn't evil.
 
7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual questions: in 2 ? 
years, why didn't Fred and George ever notice that their brother was 
frequently accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew?  does it 
show all of Hogwarts?  does it show ghosts?  Etc. . . .

In my imagination the map has to show all of Hogwarts and anybody in 
it. But would Ron ever be somewhere alone or in a small group where 
one name would stand out while the boys were marauding? It seems to me 
that the twins used the map to sneak around probably after hours when 
Ron would be in a dorm with about 50 or more people all those 
overlapping names in one spot might explain them missing one.

 
10. Is Trelawney's prediction that either Ron or Harry will 
predecease the others at the table going to come true?

I hope not, but there was a rumor I read once that the books would 
stop at seven not just because Harry will be graduating Hogwarts but 
because he will be dead. I hope it was a bad rumor.
 
11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for 
him?
 
Maybe it reminds him too much of his nemesis the moon, and is worried 
about it having an ill effect on him?






From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 14:06:47 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:06:47 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Evil?
In-Reply-To: <8e.16210d63.2841d5b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9f2upn+3bbc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19754

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., SHENmagic at a... wrote:> 
> Ah, but does Lockhart get the SAME spell off? Remember that in his
> office, Lockhart was ready to do a memory charm on Harry and Ron,
> but in the tunnel to the Chamber of Secrets his intent appeared
> much much, more severe than a mere forgetting of some
> information:  "I'll explain that you two tragically lost your minds
> at the sight of her mangled body....". It sounds to me a bit more
> intense than just a memory charm (has JKR given us the "Word" for
> memory charm? I could use the antithesis -- a memory enhancement
> -- from time to time-like now!) at any rate the charm or spell
> Lockhart voices in the tunnel is "Obliviate" which had it landed,
> according to Lockhart's spoken intention, would "obliterate" their
> minds.  Lockhart at that point behaves in my eyes, you should
> pardon the expression, like an evil desperate rat....

"Obliviate", while it might *look* like "obliterate", is still
clearly the memory charm.  "Oblivion" and "oblivious" in English,
"oublier" and its derivatives in French, and "olvidar" in Spanish,
all come from "oblivisci" = "to forget" in Latin, as would presumably
"obliviate".

The resemblance to "obliterate" I would say is more a chance overtone.

....Craig




From cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com  Wed May 30 14:07:35 2001
From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com (cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:07:35 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <9f2u8l+ql3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f2ur7+3ckg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19755

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> > 
>   
> > > > 7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual
> > > questions: in 2 ? 
> > > years, why 
> > > > didn't Fred and George ever notice that their
> > > brother was 
> > > frequently 
> > > > accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew? 
> >  
> > Better still, wouldn't it have shown PERCY with Peter
> > Pettigrew? 
> 
> My theory is that Peter, being one of the map's authors, was able to 
> somehow cast a spell on Fred and George so that they could not read 
> his name on the map. Peter wrongly assumed that the map would then 
> stay in F & G's hands permenantly.
> 

How could Peter have possibly known they had the map when he was with 
Ron all the time?
>   - CMC




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 14:25:46 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:25:46 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Virus! :-(
References: <005f01c0e8ff$6a578900$c22a07d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <023d01c0e914$6baea800$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19756

Dinah,

I hate to tell you bad news, but that wasn't a virus.  It was a program that
lets you have long file names.  There's a page on it at Norton and McAffee,
iirc.

:)

http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/sulfnbk.exe.warning.html

SULFNBK.EXE Warning
Reported on: April 17, 2001
Last Updated on: May 29, 2001 at 06:22:42 AM PDT

Printer-friendly version


The following hoax email has been reported in Brazil. The original email is
in Portuguese; it is followed by an English translation.

CAUTIONS:

This particular email message is a hoax. The file that is mentioned in the
hoax, however, Sulfnbk.exe, is a Microsoft Windows utility that is used to
restore long file names, and like any .exe file, it can be infected by a
virus that targets .exe files.
The virus/worm W32.Magistr.24876 at mm can arrive as an attachment named
Sulfnbk.exe. The Sulfnbk.exe file used by Windows is located in the
C:\Windows\Command folder. If the file is located in any other folder, or
arrives as an attachment to a email message, then it is possible that the
file is infected. In this case, if a scan with the latest virus definitions
and with NAV set to scan all files does not detect the file as being
infected, quarantine and submit the file to SARC for analysis by following
the instructions in the document How to submit a file to SARC using Scan and
Deliver.
If you have deleted the Sulfnbk.exe file from the C:\Windows\Command folder
and want to know how to restore the file, you should contact your computer
manufacturer or Microsoft for assistance. As an alternative, If you are
running Windows 98 or Windows Me, see the document How to extract files in
Safe Mode under Windows 98 or Windows Millennium.
NOTE: The instructions in this document are provided for your convenience.
The extraction of Windows files uses Microsoft programs and commands.
Symantec does not provide warranty support for or assistance with Microsoft
products.

********************
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by
accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We cause
accidents.
- Nathaniel Borenstein
********************

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dinah" <bludger_witch at yahoo.com>
To: "hmpf" <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Cc: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" <crowswolf at sympatico.ca>; "Wanda"
<witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com>; "Vicky Ra" <Andromache815 at hotmail.com>;
"HP_FanFiction at egroups.com" <HP_FanFiction at yahoogroups.com>;
<hpfemmeslash at yahoogroups.com>; <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>; "Horst or
Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at pobox.com>; "meckelburg" <meckelburg at foni.net>;
"yael" <yael8765 at hotmail.com>; "Dennaveve Kalanam" <dennaveve at hotmail.com>;
<ClanMacSlow at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 7:50 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Virus! :-(


> Guys, sorry to drop this here, I know those warnings are always buggers.
But I got that Mail from a friend yesterday, checked the information and
found that little dumpling on my hard-drive. Dunno where it came from. Guess
it was well hidden.
>
> Anyway, I deleted it and had no problems whatsoever. Hope you won't find
anything.
>
> Good hunt.
>
> Dinah
>
>
> Subject: URGENT - VIRUS ELIMINATION
>
> A friend of mine brought to my attention today that a VIRUS is in
> circulation via email. I looked for it and to my surprise I found it
> on my computer. Please act URGENTLY. The VIRUS could be in your
> computer files now, dormant but will become active on June 1,
> according to information that I have received. PLEASE FOLLOW
> DIRECTIONS BELOW TO CHECK IF YOU HAVE IT AND REMOVE IT NOW.
>
> I do not know how long it has been on my computer, but no Virus
> software can detect it. It will become active on June 1, 2001. It
> might be too late by then. It wipes out all files and folders on the
> hard drive. This virus travels thru E-mail and migrates to the
> 'C:\windows\command' folder. To find it and get it off of your
> computer, do the following.
>
> Go to the "START" button.
>
> Go to "FIND" or "SEARCH"
>
> Go to "FILES & FOLDERS"
>
> Make sure the find box is searching the "C:" drive.
>
> Type in: SULFNBK.EXE
>
> Begin search.
>
> If it finds it, highlight it.
>
> Go to 'File' menu of the same 'Find' Dialog Box and delete it.
>
> Close the find Dialog box
>
> Open the Recycle Bin
>
> Find the file and delete it from the Recycle bin
>
> You should be safe.
>
> The bad part is: You need to contact everyone you have sent ANY
> E-mail to  in the past few months. Many major companies have found
> this virus on their computers. Please help your friends !!!!!!!! DO
> NOT RELY ON YOUR ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE. McAFEE and NORTON CANNOT DETECT
> IT BECAUSE IT DOES NOT BE COME A VIRUS UNTIL JUNE 1ST.
>
> WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT OPEN THE FILE!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter
YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they
want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
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>


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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed May 30 14:19:32 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:19:32 -0400
Subject: Harry Potter and the Nature of  self defense
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E2@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19757

Susan wrote:
> 
> 
> of course it doesn't make Harry evil. First, good people do bad 
> things.
> Second, good people lose their tempers.
True, but...
> 
> But third, and most importantly, Harry was acting in self 
> preservation and self defense. Marge has set her dogs on him and 
> treats him with total contempt. Why shouldn't he blow her up?
> She is the one with power over him, he doesn't have the ethical
> restraints that the false Moody should have had when turning Malfoy 
> into a ferret......

Well, it's not self defense, in the legal sense, either under US or UK law.
Harry's actions against Krum in the maze were in defense of another (Cedric)
which is a functional equivilant, but self defense, as a matter of Muggle
law, can only be used against physical force (and while Marge had used
physical force against Harry in the past, in that scene, she wasn't) and can
only match the physical force - in other words, it cannot be more forceful -
you can't meet a stunning spell with an AK, but you could meet it with a
body bind curse, if the wizarding world uses a similar or parallel rule on
this issue. 



From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 14:39:29 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:39:29 -0000
Subject: Gilderoy (was also ..., DADA, Quotes)
In-Reply-To: <015f01c0e676$8a8252e0$953670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9f30n1+6b5e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19758

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> "-roy" could be derived from the French for king, but "-eroy" may
> be a twisting of Eros - referring to sexual love.  Both would work,
> because Lockhart appears to regard himself as a 'king' among men,
> and comes across as a pinup that no woman (or some men) can
> resist*, but he is making false claims - gilding - in both
> departments.  In fact, we can see that he's not the solid gold he
> claims; but fool's gold.

Um, the speculation of "-eroy" being a play on "Eros" is imho probably
a bit too much.  I'm sure someone can explain why a break between
the "d" and "e" is unlikely better than I can, but I'll simply say
that from experience I doubt it's correct.

In general, names starting with "Guil-" are Romance-language forms
of Germanic names starting with "Wil-", which has the same root and
meaning as the English "will" (as in willpower).

I would venture that there is an older underlying form that
probably comes down to "will of [the] king".

However, I found a web site which notes that "proud as Guilderoy" is
a Newfouldland expression and that would seem to be a better
explanation of the source than the etymology.  See:

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Heritage/NGB/Articles/folk-lore.html

....Craig




From driveslucy at aol.com  Wed May 30 14:53:19 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:53:19 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Virus! :-(
Message-ID: <c0.150dbe95.2846635f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19759

These hoaxes cause a lot of damage.  Can we please ban these warnings from 
the list?

Luce



From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed May 30 15:00:15 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:00:15 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f31tv+iorm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19760

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
A really good two chapter summary! 

> Questions:
 
> 1. It occurs to Harry that the Marauder's Map may be a Dark object; 
> it puts  him in mind of Mr. Weasley's dictum about mysterious 
> magical objects, and he  hesitates to use it, but overcomes his 
> doubts "quite suddenly, as though  following orders."  What do you 
> make of the pull the Map seems to have on  him?

I think it was just Harry rationalizing it.  The original Marauders, 
after all were just a bunch of high-spirited teenagers who liked to 
get into trouble and cause it -- but nothing harmful. The same case 
is true of the Brothers Weasley.  

 
> 2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be?

Butterbeer to start.
And probably one of everything to find out what I like best.
Like Dumbledore, I'd stay away from the Every Flavor Beans, though. 

> 
> 3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the secret 
> passages?  If not, how?

It must be the secret passages!  Most likely the one by the Whomping 
Willow since he and the rest of the Marauders came and went to the 
Shrieking Shack by that one, and that's where the whole denouement 
goes down at the end of the book. 

> 
> 4. Fudge says that Black's part in the Potters' deaths "isn't 
widely known." 
>   Is there any significance to the reason why not, i.e., is it 
deliberately 
> being kept secret, and if so, why?

My guess being that Fudge [in typical form] just wanted to take 
someone in and blame for the deaths of the 12 muggles and the huge 
explosion -- so he probably put the kibosh on any speculation that 
Black may have truly been as innocent as he said he was. 

> 
> 5. How do you explain the discrepancy between Hagrid's account here 
about 
> the motorbike (that Sirius specifically told him to keep it 
permanently) and 
> what he says in PS/SS 1 (that he needs to return it to Sirius)?

Emotional upheaval on Hagrid's part. We know he tends to get a little 
dramatic when emotional or in his cups, yes? 
> 
> 6. How does the Fidelius Charm work?  Does it hide you from 
everybody, from 
> one person only, from a selected list . . . ?
> 
My guess is it hides you from everyone *but* a selected list, given 
that Dumbledore knew where to find them, and likely so did Sirius 
even though he was not the Keeper.

> 7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual questions: in 2 ? 
years, why 
> didn't Fred and George ever notice that their brother was 
frequently 
> accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew?  does it show all of 
> Hogwarts?  does it show ghosts?  Etc. . . .
> 
I believe it does show ghosts, but I'm not sure why. 

And perhaps the Map only shows Peter Pettigrew to another Marauder 
since *they* made the map?  

That's a tough one! 


> 8. Lupin says that a boy named Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye to 
> the Whomping Willow; Lockhart had a fan named Gladys Gudgeon (CoS 
7); any relation?

Possible.  Maybe the "what's in a name" thing would be useful here. 
What's a Gudgeon? 

MERRIAM WEBSTER: 
gudgeon [noun]
gud*geon [1] (noun)

[Middle English gudyon, from Middle French goujon]

First appeared 15th Century

 1 : PIVOT 1, JOURNAL

 2 : a socket for a rudder pintle

gudgeon [2] (noun)

[Middle English gojune, from Middle French gouvion, gougon, from 
Latin gobion-, gobio, alteration of gobius -- more at GOBY]

First appeared 15th Century

 : a small European freshwater fish (Gobio gobio) related to the 
carps and often used for food or bait

 
> 9. Is Snape's vulture-topped-hat cracker favor (a) a plant by 
Dumbledore,  (b) evidence that wizard crackers magically respond to 
the psyche of whoever  pulls them, (c )  a coincidence, or (d) 
something else?

I'd say a combination of A and D.  Dumbledore probably gave him one 
in the interest of getting the stonefaced Snape to crack a smile. 
That it popped out the vulture-topped hat could mean it responds not 
to the psyche of whoever pulls them, but to the thing they're most 
annoyed or displeased about.

> 
> 10. Is Trelawney's prediction that either Ron or Harry will 
predecease the 
> others at the table going to come true?

Eventually. Everybody dies. 
> 
> 11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for 
him?

Probably because he either thinks her a fraud and will waste his 
time, or because he's afraid that she'll have one of her rare true 
predictions. Or it could just have been time for another quaff of 
potion.
> 

Indigo
proud wearer of a Hogwarts Denim Jacket and a Gryffindor House 
Quidditch Team shirt.






From deeblite at home.com  Wed May 30 15:03:24 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:03:24 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <9f2unt+3cki@eGroups.com>
References: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010530110136.025d5160@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19761

At 02:05 PM 5/30/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual questions: in 2 ?
>years, why didn't Fred and George ever notice that their brother was
>frequently accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew?  does it
>show all of Hogwarts?  does it show ghosts?  Etc. . . .

Something that occured to me- Wouldn't it have shown the location of the 
Chamber of Secrets, if in fact it shows all of Hogwarts?  If so, wouldn't 
Fred and George have acted on the knowledge of it's location?  Sure, they 
wouldn't have been able to get in (unless there's some other secret 
entrance to it) but you'd think they would have told somebody.


-- 
Deeblite
WTF is an acronym?




From rick824 at webtv.net  Wed May 30 15:12:11 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:12:11 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9f1v2j+goav@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f32kb+3u0c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19762

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > What happened to your third strand? I was hoping it would be evil by
> > self-absorption, which would cover Lockhart and the Dursleys--those 
> who
> > are not evil by nature, necessarily (by that I mean, not consciously
> > evil), but who do evil things.
> > 
> 
> 
> But I would continue to argue that Lockhart -- and the Dursleys --
> ARE evil.
> 
> The Dursleys do not want anyone to know that Harry is a wizard.
> They are embarrassed and ashamed. Okay.
> 
> But they consciously abuse and neglect Harry. They ignore him 
> whenever possible. They shower Dudley with gifts, and give Harry a 
> tissue. They ignore his birthday. They lock him in his cupboard.
> They imprison him in his room. They do not give him enough food to 
> eat. They constantly attack and belittle him. They hit him. They 
> threaten him with physical violence. They allow Dudley and his 
> friends to beat him up. Etc. Etc. Etc. This is planned and calculated 
> evil.
> 
> Susan 
  If the Dursleys are evil for the way they treat Harry would not it also be safe to say that the way Snape treats Neville is also evil?  I am sure Snape knows about his parents being in St Mungos but doesnt show him any empathy.
 Rick




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed May 30 15:14:10 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:14:10 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!   -- sexism/banality of evil
In-Reply-To: <9f1t6t+45df@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f32o2+qspe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19763

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> I think it's interesting that folks are critical of Hermione and 
> Molly Weasley for their crush on Lockhart. 
> 
> Molly has never even met the man, but is beguiled by his good 
> looks...of course so is the newspaper that voted him the smile of 
the 
> week/year, whatever, and Albus Dumbledore (who hired him), and his 
> publisher (who printed him).....So I don't think we can blame Molly.
> 
> I think it's interesting that literature tends to blame women for 
> being manipulative in attracting men,
> and blame women for being attracted to good looking worthless men 
(I 
> tend to wonder how much of Gilderoy Lockhart was based on JKR's ex 
> husband -- after all, she identifies with Hermione)....
> 
> But rarely are men blamed for being attracted to good looking 
> worthless women (Veela)...it's the women who tend to be labeled...
> 
> anyway, Lockhart was evil. He isn't as smart as Voldemort, or as 
> effective. But he was willing to abandon Ginny to V and to kill
> Ron and Harry for his own reputation.... that is evil. He had no 
> compunction and no guilt. And what about all the other 
> wizards/witches from whom he stole memory and reputation?
> 
> Those who don't like CoS should listen to it on tape. Jim Dale does 
a 
> remarkable job (including Lockhart saying "harry, harry, harry") I 
> love CoS as a result of listening to the tape.
> 
> Susan




From rick824 at webtv.net  Wed May 30 15:16:51 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:16:51 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Nature of  self defense
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E2@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9f32t3+pu32@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19764

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > of course it doesn't make Harry evil. First, good people do bad 
> > things.
> > Second, good people lose their tempers.
> True, but...
> > 
> > But third, and most importantly, Harry was acting in self 
> > preservation and self defense. Marge has set her dogs on him and 
> > treats him with total contempt. Why shouldn't he blow her up?
> > She is the one with power over him, he doesn't have the ethical
> > restraints that the false Moody should have had when turning Malfoy 
> > into a ferret......
> 
> Well, it's not self defense, in the legal sense, either under US or UK law.
> Harry's actions against Krum in the maze were in defense of another (Cedric)
> which is a functional equivilant, but self defense, as a matter of Muggle
> law, can only be used against physical force (and while Marge had used
> physical force against Harry in the past, in that scene, she wasn't) and can
> only match the physical force - in other words, it cannot be more forceful -
> you can't meet a stunning spell with an AK, but you could meet it with a
> body bind curse, if the wizarding world uses a similar or parallel rule on
> this issue. 
  I still want to know how he pulled of that hex/charm without his wand!
 Rick




From rick824 at webtv.net  Wed May 30 15:17:14 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:17:14 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and the Nature of  self defense
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E2@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9f32tq+3tvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19765

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > of course it doesn't make Harry evil. First, good people do bad 
> > things.
> > Second, good people lose their tempers.
> True, but...
> > 
> > But third, and most importantly, Harry was acting in self 
> > preservation and self defense. Marge has set her dogs on him and 
> > treats him with total contempt. Why shouldn't he blow her up?
> > She is the one with power over him, he doesn't have the ethical
> > restraints that the false Moody should have had when turning Malfoy 
> > into a ferret......
> 
> Well, it's not self defense, in the legal sense, either under US or UK law.
> Harry's actions against Krum in the maze were in defense of another (Cedric)
> which is a functional equivilant, but self defense, as a matter of Muggle
> law, can only be used against physical force (and while Marge had used
> physical force against Harry in the past, in that scene, she wasn't) and can
> only match the physical force - in other words, it cannot be more forceful -
> you can't meet a stunning spell with an AK, but you could meet it with a
> body bind curse, if the wizarding world uses a similar or parallel rule on
> this issue.




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 15:31:12 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wands
In-Reply-To: <9f32t3+pu32@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010530153112.91600.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19766


--- rick824 at webtv.net wrote:
> I still want to know how he pulled of that hex/charm without his
> wand!

>From what I understand, and what other HP4GU-ers have told me, a wizard
or witch is able to perform magic without their wand but it's extremely
difficult. It's more commonly done with someone is feeling high
emotions. Since Harry was so completely furious, he was able to perform
the hex/charm without the use of his wand. Wands seem to make it much
easier for wizards to focus/access their natural magical ability but
they're not absolutely necessary.

I still think it's a bit fishy though. I'm waiting for a
character/villain/hero to pop up who has such a very strong will and
magical talent that they don't *need* a wand at all to perform magic.
Or at least someone to realize this and try to train their will. Heck,
if I had magic I wouldn't want to rely on having a wand with me. It can
easily be misplaced, broken, taken away from you. I'd rather be able to
focus my magic without the need for anything...

~Amber


=====
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com
Don't ya just hate crappy homepages?...well, here's another!

"This body is dying. I can feel it rotting all around me. 
How can anything that is going to die be real? How can it
be truly beautiful?"
 - Peter S. Beagle "The Last Unicorn"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May 30 15:35:52 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:35:52 -0000
Subject: OT - Virus! :-(
In-Reply-To: <c0.150dbe95.2846635f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9f340o+fug6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19767

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., driveslucy at a... wrote:
> These hoaxes cause a lot of damage.  Can we please ban these 
warnings from 
> the list?
> 
> Luce

I don't know if it is fair to do that, because there was a genuine 
warning a few weeks ago - which saved me a lot of hassle.  I have 
certainly learnt that I have to be cautious about them - but that 
isn't really a bad thing, and it is easy to go to Norton or McAfee 
and check before taking any action.

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May 30 15:33:34 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:33:34 -0000
Subject: OT - Virus! :-(
In-Reply-To: <023d01c0e914$6baea800$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9f33se+bkpd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19768

I fell for this unfortunately, and deleted the file before I read 
Simon's message.  My husband got a techie at work to talk me through 
how to restore it, so if anyone wants user-friendly instructions on 
how to do this, feel free to contact me, and I'll post them back.

It is so annoying when these things happen - I was ultra cautious 
this time round, because my computer was infected by the backdoor 
virus a couple of weeks ago and it took me ages to sort it out.  
Never mind...

Catherine

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Dinah,
> 
> I hate to tell you bad news, but that wasn't a virus.  It was a 
program that
> lets you have long file names.  There's a page on it at Norton and 
McAffee,
> iirc.
> 
> :)
> 
> http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/sulfnbk.exe.warning.html
> 
> SULFNBK.EXE Warning
> Reported on: April 17, 2001
> Last Updated on: May 29, 2001 at 06:22:42 AM PDT
> 
> Printer-friendly version
> 
> 
> The following hoax email has been reported in Brazil. The original 
email is
> in Portuguese; it is followed by an English translation.
> 
> CAUTIONS:
> 
> This particular email message is a hoax. The file that is mentioned 
in the
> hoax, however, Sulfnbk.exe, is a Microsoft Windows utility that is 
used to
> restore long file names, and like any .exe file, it can be infected 
by a
> virus that targets .exe files.
> The virus/worm W32.Magistr.24876 at mm can arrive as an attachment 
named
> Sulfnbk.exe. The Sulfnbk.exe file used by Windows is located in the
> C:\Windows\Command folder. If the file is located in any other 
folder, or
> arrives as an attachment to a email message, then it is possible 
that the
> file is infected. In this case, if a scan with the latest virus 
definitions
> and with NAV set to scan all files does not detect the file as being
> infected, quarantine and submit the file to SARC for analysis by 
following
> the instructions in the document How to submit a file to SARC using 
Scan and
> Deliver.
> If you have deleted the Sulfnbk.exe file from the 
C:\Windows\Command folder
> and want to know how to restore the file, you should contact your 
computer
> manufacturer or Microsoft for assistance. As an alternative, If you 
are
> running Windows 98 or Windows Me, see the document How to extract 
files in
> Safe Mode under Windows 98 or Windows Millennium.
> NOTE: The instructions in this document are provided for your 
convenience.
> The extraction of Windows files uses Microsoft programs and 
commands.
> Symantec does not provide warranty support for or assistance with 
Microsoft
> products.
> 
> ********************
> The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts 
agree, is by
> accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals. We 
cause
> accidents.
> - Nathaniel Borenstein
> ********************
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dinah" <bludger_witch at y...>
> To: "hmpf" <hmpf1998 at g...>
> Cc: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" <crowswolf at s...>; "Wanda"
> <witchwanda2002 at y...>; "Vicky Ra" <Andromache815 at h...>;
> "HP_FanFiction at egroups.com" <HP_FanFiction at y...>;
> <hpfemmeslash at y...>; <HPforGrownups at y...>; "Horst or
> Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...>; "meckelburg" <meckelburg at f...>;
> "yael" <yael8765 at h...>; "Dennaveve Kalanam" <dennaveve at h...>;
> <ClanMacSlow at y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 7:50 AM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT - Virus! :-(
> 
> 
> > Guys, sorry to drop this here, I know those warnings are always 
buggers.
> But I got that Mail from a friend yesterday, checked the 
information and
> found that little dumpling on my hard-drive. Dunno where it came 
from. Guess
> it was well hidden.
> >
> > Anyway, I deleted it and had no problems whatsoever. Hope you 
won't find
> anything.
> >
> > Good hunt.
> >
> > Dinah
> >
> >
> > Subject: URGENT - VIRUS ELIMINATION
> >
> > A friend of mine brought to my attention today that a VIRUS is in
> > circulation via email. I looked for it and to my surprise I found 
it
> > on my computer. Please act URGENTLY. The VIRUS could be in your
> > computer files now, dormant but will become active on June 1,
> > according to information that I have received. PLEASE FOLLOW
> > DIRECTIONS BELOW TO CHECK IF YOU HAVE IT AND REMOVE IT NOW.
> >
> > I do not know how long it has been on my computer, but no Virus
> > software can detect it. It will become active on June 1, 2001. It
> > might be too late by then. It wipes out all files and folders on 
the
> > hard drive. This virus travels thru E-mail and migrates to the
> > 'C:\windows\command' folder. To find it and get it off of your
> > computer, do the following.
> >
> > Go to the "START" button.
> >
> > Go to "FIND" or "SEARCH"
> >
> > Go to "FILES & FOLDERS"
> >
> > Make sure the find box is searching the "C:" drive.
> >
> > Type in: SULFNBK.EXE
> >
> > Begin search.
> >
> > If it finds it, highlight it.
> >
> > Go to 'File' menu of the same 'Find' Dialog Box and delete it.
> >
> > Close the find Dialog box
> >
> > Open the Recycle Bin
> >
> > Find the file and delete it from the Recycle bin
> >
> > You should be safe.
> >
> > The bad part is: You need to contact everyone you have sent ANY
> > E-mail to  in the past few months. Many major companies have found
> > this virus on their computers. Please help your friends !!!!!!!! 
DO
> > NOT RELY ON YOUR ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE. McAFEE and NORTON CANNOT 
DETECT
> > IT BECAUSE IT DOES NOT BE COME A VIRUS UNTIL JUNE 1ST.
> >
> > WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT OPEN THE FILE!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> >
> > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter
> YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the 
messages they
> want to read and those they don't.
> >
> > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, 
point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-
OTChatter to
> join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at y...
> >
> > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...)
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 30 15:36:29 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:36:29 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010530110136.025d5160@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9f341t+ke51@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19769

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote:
> At 02:05 PM 5/30/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual questions: in 2 ?
> >years, why didn't Fred and George ever notice that their brother 
was
> >frequently accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew?  does it
> >show all of Hogwarts?  does it show ghosts?  Etc. . . .
> 
> Something that occured to me- Wouldn't it have shown the location 
of the 
> Chamber of Secrets, if in fact it shows all of Hogwarts?  If so, 
wouldn't 
> Fred and George have acted on the knowledge of it's location?  
Sure, they 
> wouldn't have been able to get in (unless there's some other secret 
> entrance to it) but you'd think they would have told somebody.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Deeblite
> WTF is an acronym?

IIRC, MWPP did their exploring, and then made the map.  It doesn't 
show places they didn't find.

David




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed May 30 15:42:36 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:42:36 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Yuck!   -- sexism/banality of evil [take two]
In-Reply-To: <9f1t6t+45df@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f34dc+2fb6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19770

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:

I'm not sure why my reply went through with just the quotes and not 
my responses, so here I try again! 

> I think it's interesting that folks are critical of Hermione and 
> Molly Weasley for their crush on Lockhart. 

We don't hear of anyone else's crushes on Lockhart really. And both 
of these women are portrayed as having good heads on their shoulders, 
and not prone to girlish flights of swooning, bodice-heaving 
fantasy.  

Hermione even goes so far as to not get what the big deal is about 
Krum in Book 4, though he chooses her for his girlfriend.  So other 
than the one thing with Lockhart, she's proven to be more sensible 
than to get all swoony.

And I'm pretty sure Krum got girls following him all over; even 
Gilderoy wasn't quite able to manage that to that level.

> 
> Molly has never even met the man, but is beguiled by his good 
> looks...of course so is the newspaper that voted him the smile of 
the  week/year, whatever, 

Yes, but who else has won that award, or did Gilderoy whip it up that 
year so he could win it?

and Albus Dumbledore (who hired him), 

who else was in contention for the job that year? No one, as I 
recall -- Dumbledore had to make use of what was available, such that 
it was. 

and his 
> publisher (who printed him)

Publishers aren't necessarily scrupulous people. That may not be the 
nicest thing to say but it's true. If Lockhart's books made 
interesting enough reading to turn a profit, the publisher might not 
have looked too closely into how Lockhart came by all these 
experiences.

.....So I don't think we can blame Molly.

I think it's that no females are given detailed attention in the 
books except those who have to relate to Harry on some level, so 
Molly and Hermione as friends and closest to Harry were the only 
overt reactions to Gilderoy that we got to see close-up.

Maybe other girls got all swoony for him too.
> 
> I think it's interesting that literature tends to blame women for 
> being manipulative in attracting men,
> and blame women for being attracted to good looking worthless men 
(I  tend to wonder how much of Gilderoy Lockhart was based on JKR's 
ex  husband -- after all, she identifies with Hermione)....
> 
> But rarely are men blamed for being attracted to good looking 
> worthless women (Veela)...it's the women who tend to be labeled...

What evidence do we have that the Veela are worthless?

Fleur was good enough [and only part veela] to be picked as a 
Champion for the Triwizard Tournament.

As for the other veela? We haven't seen anything of them except that 
they give off the supernatural pheremone that urges men to do stupid 
things to impress them.  

 
> anyway, Lockhart was evil. He isn't as smart as Voldemort, or as 
> effective. But he was willing to abandon Ginny to V 

I don't think he so much was willing to abandon Ginny to Voldemort 
[because we didn't at that point *know* Riddle = Voldemort]  as it 
was that Lockhart believed it was already too late for Ginny, and 
that whatever had killed her at the heir's bidding would likely kill 
him, Harry, and Ron as well. 

and to kill Ron and Harry for his own reputation.... that is evil. 

Actually, he never said anything about killing them. Just [to borrow 
a term from another fandom] mindwiping them. 

He had no 
> compunction and no guilt. And what about all the other 
> wizards/witches from whom he stole memory and reputation?

He did steal from them, but he didn't go so far as to kill them.  
Keeping in mind the evidence we've seen that he's not as competent a 
wizard as he says he is -- which could mean that perhaps Gilderoy 
*does* feel guilty, because his memory charms stand a better than 
even chance of wearing off, and having the rightful monster-slayers 
turn up and take him to task for the quack charlatan fake loser he 
really is. 

People are very good at fooling themselves and rationalizing things. 

I think that Gilderoy *could* have killed in many occasions to 
further his ambition but that he *didn't* and *doesn't*  is telling.

I think that he's a feckless, self-centered, incompetent, cowardly 
git [to use Ron's terminology] who thinks only of himself, and 
impulsively acts without considering the consequences of his actions.

If he left a trail of bodies behind him, that would be another 
story.  



Indigo 





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed May 30 15:44:41 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:44:41 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <9f31tv+iorm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f34h9+87r2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19771

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > 3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the 
secret 
> > passages?  If not, how?
> 
> It must be the secret passages!  Most likely the one by the 
Whomping 
> Willow since he and the rest of the Marauders came and went to the 
> Shrieking Shack by that one, and that's where the whole denouement 
> goes down at the end of the book. 

The problem with the Whomping Willow is that it doesn't lead directly 
into the castle, but into the grounds, so Sirius would still have had 
to get past the protections put in place round the castle itself - 
eg, teaching the doors to recognise him etc.

> > 8. Lupin says that a boy named Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye 
to 
> > the Whomping Willow; Lockhart had a fan named Gladys Gudgeon (CoS 
> 7); any relation?
> 
> Possible.  Maybe the "what's in a name" thing would be useful here. 
> What's a Gudgeon? 
> 
> MERRIAM WEBSTER: 
> gudgeon [noun]
> gud*geon [1] (noun)
> 
> [Middle English gudyon, from Middle French goujon]
> 
> First appeared 15th Century
> 
>  1 : PIVOT 1, JOURNAL
> 
>  2 : a socket for a rudder pintle
> 
> gudgeon [2] (noun)
> 
> [Middle English gojune, from Middle French gouvion, gougon, from 
> Latin gobion-, gobio, alteration of gobius -- more at GOBY]
> 
> First appeared 15th Century
> 
>  : a small European freshwater fish (Gobio gobio) related to the 
> carps and often used for food or bait
> 
>  
A more recent meaning of gudgeon, used widely in the 18th/19th 
centuries in England, is to describe someone who is stupid, 
ponderous, - something like a cross between an airhead and a pedant, 
so someone who probably thinks he is clever, and therefore likes the 
sound of his own voice, but isn't.  I haven't looked this up so can't 
swear to its accuracy, but remember it from years of reading 
Georgette Heyer.

Catherine

"Bouillabaise," said Hermione
"Bless you," said Ron.

(thought it's about time I start adding sig lines).




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed May 30 15:44:37 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:44:37 -0000
Subject: Wands
In-Reply-To: <20010530153112.91600.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f34h5+8u75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19772

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
 I'm waiting for a
> character/villain/hero to pop up who has such a very strong will and
> magical talent that they don't *need* a wand at all to perform magic.


Wait no more, Amber. Reread the ending of PS/SS and notice that Quirrel 
doesn't use a wand.
	Ch. 17: Quirrel snapped his fingers. Ropes sprang out of thin air 
and wrapped themselves around Harry.
	***
	He clapped his hands once and the ropes binding Harry fell off.
	***
	Quirrel raised his hand to perform a deadly curse.
Pippin





From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 13:50:57 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:50:57 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
References: <9f13oh+7l5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE18FkuutSgcOrBLSAQ00004813@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19773

Pippin:       Or maybe Snape discovered that Voldemort's immortality spells were 
a Ponzi scheme which depended on a constant stream of wizarding 
victims. Voldemort's followers love to bait Muggles, but a good many of 
those killed seem to have been wizards. And it seems to be very 
important that Nagini be fed a wizard or two now and then.


I wonder about the significance of Nagini. S/he seems to eat wizards. Is that the only thing s/he eats? Also, Voldy's resurrection potion had snake venom in it. Are Nagini's and Voldy's lives connected? If one were killed, would the other die also? Or am I over-analyzing?

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 14:00:19 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:00:19 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel in the Series
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529144004.02ac0a10@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OE73Wt8d3P8BP2kfmpR000046be@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19774

Dave: suppose the Triwizard Portkey was designed to return to outside the
maze *and* only a few seconds in time after it departed!  This would clear
up the thing that has been bothering me: why Snape is sitting there on
his keister all the time between feeling the Dark Mark return and
Harry's rematerialization.  This way, there was no pause between
the two events.


But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating. After all, the tournament was going on, so he couldn't get up and walk away without attracting attention. Also, I doubt Snape would get a good reception with Voldy, and I don't think he could have done anything for Harry. The Dark Lord demands obedience, and if Snape went against him so blatantly by trying to help Harry, he'd have a whole bunch of Death Eaters, plus Voldy, to contend with. Wouldn't it have also shown support for Voldy if Snape went after Harry?

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 14:33:44 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:33:44 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape: Good or evil?
References: <9f1u1t+8t5d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE45gEjw1ZLFjwscTEq000047f2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19775

Susan: Snape, Snape, Snape...he is perhaps the most interesting
character..where does he fit? what is really going on with him? 


Indeed. He's immature and delights in malice and cruel behavior, and yet, he does his best to keep Harry alive. I wonder if Harry is destined to defeat Voldy, which would explain why Harry overcame him. Harry's always been lucky, which is why I wish Snape got more recognition. But that's the way of it, I guess. The one who actually did the deed is the one who gets most of the credit. But if Snape wants Voldy killed, he'd have reason to keep Harry alive, if Harry is needed to actually kill Voldy. So his ends mayh be selfish. His nastiness could all be chalked up to not knowing anything else, and yet he did want the dementors to get Sirius, which is beyond nasty. Of course, he's never rational when it comes to Sirius and Lupin. I think Snape does indeed have a propensity for great evil and great nobility, yet he seems to have decided to be allied with Dumbledore, which is a step in the right direction. When Voldy called, he didn't come, and he may be killed for it. He's risking his life and he knows it, but he's intent on keeping Dumbledore's trust, perhaps the only man who fully trusts him. He does not forgive easily, if at all, but I am that way, too. One reason I like Snape is because I identify with him. Holding grudges is evil, but I certainly wouldn't forgive someone for nearly killing me without having recieved some kind of apology. 

Wow, this post is long. I can't say whether Snape is evil. It seems he can't really be classed into either category. He could really go either way. I think he will stay with Dumbledore, though, and I hope he'll be redeemed and alive by the end of the series.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 14:59:22 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 04:59:22 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil (was Lockhart) - "V" - West Ham
References: <9eohaf+7t21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE638AR9ubo69rPHuJI0000465c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19776

Amy: Lockhart doesn't take pleasure 
in causing suffering as such, but he does cause it. 

I don't know if this post has been answered already, and if so, sorry. Anyway, I think intent has a lot to do with evil. Lockhart, IMO, is evil because he doesn't seem to care about stealing memories or leaving people to die. His reasoning, of course, is purely selfish. Dobby, however, isn't evil in my eyes, because though he seems to make Harry's life miserable, the good intentions are there. He just doesn't rationalize.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 15:26:06 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 05:26:06 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's bad deeds
References: <9epagm+1ohr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE7drELpvbzpTtncIix00004816@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19777

Pippin: But in terms of canon, we have already seen that for Hagrid's sake he 
was willing to do something he shouldn't do...Dragon smuggling. 

Not to mention Aragog and his family, illegal use of magic, and cross-breeding for blast-ended skrewts. Oh yes, *and* throwing Karkaroff against a tree. He could have been killed. I don't like Karkaroff, but still...Hagrid's giant bolood surfaces...But don't get me wrong. I love Hagrid, especially his love for animals, and his propensity to feel great emotion.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jrichard at atpco.com  Wed May 30 15:51:20 2001
From: jrichard at atpco.com (jrichard at atpco.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:51:20 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9f1pvb+eue5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f34tp+5c8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19778

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rick824 at w... wrote:
> can anyone find anyone else that can perform magic without their 
wands? 
> Rick

The first thing I thought of when this was asked was of Neville, and 
how his family was so relived when he bounced down the road after 
being dropped from a window -- if that's not magic without a wand, 
I'm a hippogriff (and also matches Harry's "defensive" magic).

Jenn




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 15:56:25 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:56:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Henrietta...
In-Reply-To: <9f19i2+c0nm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010530155625.13710.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19779


--- rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote:
> Too often, boys don't read _anything_, _that's_ the problem.
> If they do, it probably won't be _Sweet Valley High_.  It might
> be Philip Pullman (to name an author who, unlike yours, isn't
> long dead).

My mom says that whenever there is a book that motivates boys to read,
there is a flurry of attention towards it. My mom thinks that explains
the Harry phenomenon; boys were attracted to it because it features a
boy hero (and consequently wouldn't have touched it if Harry were a
girl) and the media caught wind of this. That started it all. Of
course, it doesn't hurt that the book is extremely well-written and
deserves the praise it gets. I should mention that my mom hasn't read
the books herself and isn't an expert. She's just a teacher and there
are her own observations she's made from teaching kids how to read.
Anyone have any definite information?

I'm not certain whether or not she's right, though. I'd love to peep
into an alternate universe where Harry Potter *was* written as
Henrietta and see if there is the same hoopla about it...

~Amber


=====
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com
Don't ya just hate crappy homepages?...well, here's another!

"This body is dying. I can feel it rotting all around me. 
How can anything that is going to die be real? How can it
be truly beautiful?"
 - Peter S. Beagle "The Last Unicorn"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 16:00:04 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:00:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Self-defense/blowing up Aunt Marge
In-Reply-To: <9f32t3+pu32@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010530160004.70864.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19780

>   I still want to know how he pulled of that
> hex/charm without his wand!
>  Rick
> 
 
All witches and wizards have innate magic in them
which can come out at times of extreme emotional
turmoil, such as when Harry was being chased by
Dudley, or when Marge was setting him off by insulting
his parents' memory.  Neville even has a story at one
point about something he did that finally confirmed
for his grandmother that he wasn't a Squib.  The wands
seem to focus the magic, but a lack of wand doesn't
mean no magic can be performed at all.  It doesn't
seem Animagi need to use wands for their
transformations, for instance.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From rick824 at webtv.net  Wed May 30 05:30:08 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 05:30:08 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <9f1v2j+goav@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f20h0+s771@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19781

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > What happened to your third strand? I was hoping it would be evil by
> > self-absorption, which would cover Lockhart and the Dursleys--those 
> who
> > are not evil by nature, necessarily (by that I mean, not consciously
> > evil), but who do evil things.
> > 
> 
> 
> But I would continue to argue that Lockhart -- and the Dursleys --
> ARE evil.
> 
> The Dursleys do not want anyone to know that Harry is a wizard.
> They are embarrassed and ashamed. Okay.
> 
> But they consciously abuse and neglect Harry. They ignore him 
> whenever possible. They shower Dudley with gifts, and give Harry a 
> tissue. They ignore his birthday. They lock him in his cupboard.
> They imprison him in his room. They do not give him enough food to 
> eat. They constantly attack and belittle him. They hit him. They 
> threaten him with physical violence. They allow Dudley and his 
> friends to beat him up. Etc. Etc. Etc. This is planned and calculated 
> evil.
> 
> Susan 
  
 Ok, if the Dursleys are evil for treating Harry that way would that not make Snape evil for the way he treats Neville?  The guy never gives the kid a break!  I am sure he knows what happened to Neville's parents and should fell some empathy for the kid.
 Btw,  has anyone come up with some ideas on what position Snape held as a Death Eater?  ie. Lucius Malfoy as lead in Muggle torture or Macnair being some sort of executioner?
 Rick




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 30 16:06:10 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:06:10 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f35pi+erit@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19782


> 3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the secret 
> passages?  If not, how?

Deceptively simple question!  You can't get into the Shrieking Shack 
except through the tunnel (though we can't be totally sure, it seems 
that Sirius can't Apparate at this time).  That would mean that he 
first came to Hogwarts by some other route.  This could either be in 
dog form overground to get through the Dementors, or through the 
Honeydukes passage.  He might have tried the broken passage and found 
it didn't work.

Once in Hogwarts, he could get to the Shrieking Shack and set up base 
there.  At first he would need to come out to get food;  later 
Crookshanks could help, once they had met (how?).  To get into 
Hogwarts he then just uses the Whomping Willow passage.  Although in 
the time of MWPP it was Peter's job as the smallest to pacify the 
tree, presumably Sirius can do it - it's just more tricky and risky.  
Again, Crookshanks takes on this job later.

> 4. Fudge says that Black's part in the Potters' deaths "isn't 
widely known." 
>   Is there any significance to the reason why not, i.e., is it 
deliberately 
> being kept secret, and if so, why?

I would guess that it's connected to the importance of the Potters as 
a target.  There was (is) something secret about the whole thing that 
means Dumbledore can't tell Harry at the end of PS/SS that probably 
feeds through to the Fidelius charm.
 
> 6. How does the Fidelius Charm work?  Does it hide you from 
everybody, from 
> one person only, from a selected list . . . ?

Again, deceptively simple... if a selected list, then what is special 
about the Secret Keeper?  Perhaps the answer is that it doesn't hide 
people in the sense that nobody knows where they are, rather, 
Voldemort (or whoever) can't see or get at them.  So Sirius, Lupin?, 
Dumbledore, Hagrid?, McGonagall?, or others might have known the 
Potters were in cottage X in Godric's Hollow, but only Peter could 
see them or AK them, or give others the ability to do so. More like a 
key to a safe than a radio tag.  Whether it would be proof against 
the wizard equivalent of a large bomb we just don't know.
 
> 7. What about the Marauder's Map?  The usual questions: in 2 ? 
years, why 
> didn't Fred and George ever notice that their brother was 
frequently 
> accompanied by some guy named Peter Pettigrew?  does it show all of 
> Hogwarts?  does it show ghosts?  Etc. . . .

I can't answer the Pettigrew bit.  I don't have PoA with me, but my 
hazy memory is that Hagrid's cabin is off the map, so Lupin only sees 
Peter when they are coming back. (This might explain why Lupin and 
Snape don't see two Harrys or Hermiones, if the timing is right).
 
David




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 16:09:08 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <OE73Wt8d3P8BP2kfmpR000046be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010530160908.5284.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19783


 > 
> 
> But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating.
> After all, the tournament was going on, so he
> couldn't get up and walk away without attracting
> attention.   
> Vicky
> 
 
Snape (and Karkaroff, for that matter) did not have
the option of Apparating (even if they wanted to go to
Voldemort) because they were on the grounds of
Hogwarts!  Haven't you read Hogwarts: A History cover
to cover 27 times?  (giggle)

Barb (who's having a Hermione moment)


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From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 16:09:19 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:09:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <OE73Wt8d3P8BP2kfmpR000046be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010530160919.47296.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19784


 > 
> 
> But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating.
> After all, the tournament was going on, so he
> couldn't get up and walk away without attracting
> attention.   
> Vicky
> 
 
Snape (and Karkaroff, for that matter) did not have
the option of Apparating (even if they wanted to go to
Voldemort) because they were on the grounds of
Hogwarts!  Haven't you read Hogwarts: A History cover
to cover 27 times?  (giggle)

Barb (who's having a Hermione moment)


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From monika at darwin.inka.de  Wed May 30 16:06:44 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:06:44 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEIACFAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 19785


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]

> Questions:
>
> 1. It occurs to Harry that the Marauders Map may be a Dark object; it puts
> him in mind of Mr. Weasleys dictum about mysterious magical objects, and he
> hesitates to use it, but overcomes his doubts quite suddenly, as though
> following orders.  What do you make of the pull the Map seems to have on
> him?

Well, I think that Harry is thirteen, and an object like that would
appeal to any adventurous boy. He isn't really known to follow every
rule, and the perspective of exploring hidden passages in the castle
apparently makes him forget the threat that Sirius Black could get
him if he sneaks out of the castle.

> 2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be?

Hm, difficult question. I can tell you what I would *not* buy, though:
Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans. Too afraid of the earwax taste. ;-)
Maybe I would go for the Sherbet Lemons that Dumbledore seems
to favor. I just love the taste of lemons.
>
> 3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the secret
> passages?  If not, how?

After learning that he was one of the author's of the map, I was
always convinced that he got into the castle by the secret passage
that leads to the Shrieking Shack. He knew that it was the safest
way because only few people knew how to get in under the Whomping
Willow. And the fact that he dragged Ron into that passage seems
to support this assumption.

> 4. Fudge says that Blacks part in the Potters deaths isnt widely known.
>   Is there any significance to the reason why not, i.e., is it deliberately
> being kept secret, and if so, why?

I think that the Fidelius Charm was cast in secret, and very few
people knew about it. Of course Dumbledore knew about it, and
a few people in the Ministry might have known about it, too. I think
the charm must be registered with the MoM (just like the Animagus
transformation), because I don't know why the Ministry would have
known about if this wasn't the case. So, if only a few people knew
about the Secret-Keeper thing, it seems to be quite normal that
most wizards think that Sirius was in Azkaban for mass murder.
And I suppose the Fidelius Charm isn't something you would
announce in the Daily Prophet. Maybe it's deliberately being kept
secret because there is a back story we don't know yet, I
wouldn't exclude this.

> 5. How do you explain the discrepancy between Hagrid's account here about
> the motorbike (that Sirius specifically told him to keep it permanently) and
> what he says in PS/SS 1 (that he needs to return it to Sirius)?

Maybe he thought it was odd that Sirius told him to keep it because
he knew how much he loved it, so he thought he would return it
no matter what Sirius had told him. He was aware that Sirius was
very upset and he thought perhaps that he would change his mind
later.

> 6. How does the Fidelius Charm work?  Does it hide you from everybody, from
> one person only, from a selected list . . . ?

I think it only hides you from your enemies. But I could never figure
it out. I hope it will be explained in later books.

> 8. Lupin says that a boy named Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye to the
> Whomping Willow; Lockhart had a fan named Gladys Gudgeon (CoS 7); any
> relation?

I have no idea, I have never noticed this.

> 9. Is Snapes vulture-topped-hat cracker favor (a) a plant by Dumbledore,
> (b) evidence that wizard crackers magically respond to the psyche of whoever
> pulls them, (c )  a coincidence, or (d) something else?

Oh, I always thought it was a plant by Dumbledore. I just love his
sense of humor.

> 10. Is Trelawneys prediction that either Ron or Harry will predecease the
> others at the table going to come true?

Well, I hope not. But with Trelawney, you never know, right?

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html




From rick824 at webtv.net  Wed May 30 15:40:02 2001
From: rick824 at webtv.net (rick824 at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:40:02 -0000
Subject: Lockhart - Evil?
In-Reply-To: <9f2upn+3bbc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f348i+sg7t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19786

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., SHENmagic at a... wrote:> 
> > Ah, but does Lockhart get the SAME spell off? Remember that in his
> > office, Lockhart was ready to do a memory charm on Harry and Ron,
> > but in the tunnel to the Chamber of Secrets his intent appeared
> > much much, more severe than a mere forgetting of some
> > information:  "I'll explain that you two tragically lost your minds
> > at the sight of her mangled body....". It sounds to me a bit more
> > intense than just a memory charm (has JKR given us the "Word" for
> > memory charm? I could use the antithesis -- a memory enhancement
> > -- from time to time-like now!) at any rate the charm or spell
> > Lockhart voices in the tunnel is "Obliviate" which had it landed,
> > according to Lockhart's spoken intention, would "obliterate" their
> > minds.  Lockhart at that point behaves in my eyes, you should
> > pardon the expression, like an evil desperate rat....
> 
> "Obliviate", while it might *look* like "obliterate", is still
> clearly the memory charm.  "Oblivion" and "oblivious" in English,
> "oublier" and its derivatives in French, and "olvidar" in Spanish,
> all come from "oblivisci" = "to forget" in Latin, as would presumably
> "obliviate".
> 
> The resemblance to "obliterate" I would say is more a chance overtone.
> 
> ....Craig 
 I think Lockhart is evil in the same way that Wormtail is evil, a person that is willing to do anything to better himself or save his own skin.     Another thing I was thinking about was the amount of Memory charms Lockhart would have to perform to take credit for anothers deeds.  Not just the true person that did the good deed but for all the people involved, like a village being attacked by a werewolf.  Wouldnt you have to do Memory charms on the whole town to keep your secret safe?  Also in COS, Lockhart had Harry acting out a werewolf attack in some village.  Lockhart says he uses the immensely complex Homorphus Charm to turn the werewolf back into a man.  Was that just for the month or was the man cured forever?  If he was cured forever why is Lupin still a werewolf?  Sorry just kinda ramblin on here!
  Rick




From reanna20 at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 16:17:51 2001
From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands
In-Reply-To: <9f34h5+8u75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010530161751.85262.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19787


--- foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber <reanna20 at y...> wrote:
> > I'm waiting for a character/villain/hero to pop up who has such a
> > very strong will and magical talent that they don't *need* a wand
> > at all to perform magic.
> 
> Wait no more, Amber. Reread the ending of PS/SS and notice that
> Quirrel doesn't use a wand.

Hm, you're right (dangit, I need to read more closely)! Veeeery
innnnnteresting. I wonder if it's because of strong will/magic, of
Voldie, or high emotions. Or a combination of the three. I rather think
it might be a combination...Voldie's probably got a strong enough will
for ten!

Still, why don't wizards/witches *try* not to rely on their wands, try
to retrain their wills. You'd think Dumbledore might realize the merits
in this and have a class on it (maybe he does...). I know it's just
easier to have the wand for amplification. But still, losing one's wand
puts the witch/wizard at a distinct disadvantage, one that I wouldn't
want to have.

Hrm, I wonder if Dumblydore needs his wand that much...dang, why do I
think of these things at work when I don't have the books with me?
Maybe I'll go looking through the archives, I'm sure that this has been
discussed before...

~Amber
 

=====
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com
Don't ya just hate crappy homepages?...well, here's another!

"This body is dying. I can feel it rotting all around me. 
How can anything that is going to die be real? How can it
be truly beautiful?"
 - Peter S. Beagle "The Last Unicorn"

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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed May 30 16:13:37 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:13:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blame the wolfie?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E7@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19788

catherine wrote
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> Over the past year Sirius
> > had believed that Remus had turned traitor (why? lingering anti 
> werewolf
> > feeling even among those who should know better?  Or was Lupin  
> acting as
> > yet another double agent?) and the knowledge of Pettigrew's 
> treachery
> > doesn't immediately exonerate Lupin - either one or both of his 
> friends must
> > be a traitor.  
> 
> I have always had a problem with this.  I think that Sirius must have 
> had other grounds for believing the spy to be Lupin.  If James and 
> Sirius thought so much of Lupin that they became animagi to ease his 
> transformations - and in doing so showed that they didn't have any 
> prejudices about werewolves - how is it at a later date these 
> prejudices somehow manifested themselves as mistrust over who was 
> spying for Voldemort?  
> 
> My guess is that it was a process of elimination. 

My guess is that Peter, while in rat form, spied on a conversation between
either Sirius & Remus, James & Remus or Lily & Remus, where the subject
matter discussed was known only to the four of them, and provided
information about that conversation to Voldemort. If Voldemort then acted on
that information, Sirius, James & Lily would only have had Remus to blame
unless the thought of Rat!Peter spying on the conversation occured to them.
If they had reasons for not thinking Peter was the spy, then Remus would've
been the logical, practical and blameworthy target



From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 16:22:28 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:28 -0000
Subject: Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <9eu3od+gv7l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f36o4+j96j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19789

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> Back to www.babyname.com, which actually claims to recognise:
> 'This boy's name is used in English.  Its source is a literature
> expression whose meaning has been lost.  The name Draco did
> not rank among the roughly 6,000 names reported in the 1990
> Census Data.'

www.babyname.com shouldn't be trusted, after all, read what it
says about "Gilderoy":

"This boy's name is used in English. Its source is unknown.  The
name Gilderoy did not rank among the roughly 6,000 names reported
in the 1990 Census Data."


Sound familiar?

These are clearly submissions by users, probably Harry Potter fans
that have been cleaned up to fit their database format.  It goes back
to the old computer expression: GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out.


> www.m-w.com says that "Draco" is (1) Latin for "dragon" and
> (2) a constellation allegedly resembling a dragon and
> (3) a particular historical person who was an 'Athenian lawgiver;
> prepared prob. first comprehensive written law code for Athens
> (ca. 621 B.C.), prescribing death for most offenses, whence the
> word draconian.'  I think you covered all that.

The first two are in essence the same word in Latin where the
second is a metonymical use of the first.  Draco was also used to
refer to a cohort's standard, a sea-fish, a water-vessel shaped like
a serpent, an old vine-branch, and of course, ecclesiastically, the
Devil.  [Source: Lewis and Short]  The third was a proper name
derived from the Greek word "drakon" (serpent, dragon) which is the
source of the Latin.  Hence, all three are of the same root.


> The name Lucius, now: 'This boy's name is used in English.
> Its source is Lux, a Latin name meaning "Light."  The name
> Lucius ranked 1171st in popularity for males of all ages
> in a sample of the 1990 US Census.'

And again, www.babyname.com gives us rubbish.

Lucius was the Latin name.  Lux is the Latin word for 'light', but
it was not used as a name, afaik.


> Hmm, sounds a bit like "Lucifer"? ("Bringer of light.")

Of course, but strictly speaking, the use of Lucifer to refer to
the devil was derived from a verse in Isaiah referring to a
Babylonian king as the morning star (i.e. the bearer of light) and
this was again used metonymically to refer to Satan as the fallen
angel who was the Son of the Morning.

....Craig




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 30 16:16:38 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:16:38 -0000
Subject: Apparating at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <20010530160908.5284.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f36d6+erre@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19790

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> 
>  > 
> > 
> > But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating.
> > After all, the tournament was going on, so he
> > couldn't get up and walk away without attracting
> > attention.   
> > Vicky
> > 
>  
> Snape (and Karkaroff, for that matter) did not have
> the option of Apparating (even if they wanted to go to
> Voldemort) because they were on the grounds of
> Hogwarts!  Haven't you read Hogwarts: A History cover
> to cover 27 times?  (giggle)
> 
> Barb (who's having a Hermione moment)
> 
> 

Can't we assume that the nearest 'Apparatable point' (or whatever you 
want to call it) is in walking distance of Hogwarts?

David




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 16:32:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:32:01 -0000
Subject: Map - 13-at-dinner prediction - Veela
In-Reply-To: <9f31tv+iorm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f37a1+ndor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19791

Indigo suggested:

>And perhaps the Map only shows Peter Pettigrew to another Marauder 
>since *they* made the map?  

That's a great idea, and MWPP should have thought of it, but they 
didn't, 'cause Snape sees Lupin on it (ch 19).

> 10. Is Trelawney's prediction that either Ron or Harry will 
predecease the 
> others at the table going to come true?

Indigo wrote:

>Eventually. Everybody dies.

But she says that when 13 eat together, the first to get up will be 
the =first= to die, which is somewhat upsetting since one would hope 
that the professors, who range from 20 to 140 years older than Ron and 
Harry, would predecease them.  McGonagall's crack notwithstanding, the 
fact that there is no mad axe-man in the entrance hall isn't at all 
reassuring, since the prediction wasn't that the first to get up would 
die =soon= but that he would die =before anyone else at the table.=  I 
won't relax 'til one of the others has died (I vote for the sullen 
Slytherin, but Filch would be okay.  Catlady can adopt Mrs. Norris).  

Indigo wrote:

>What evidence do we have that the Veela are worthless?

>Fleur was good enough [and only part veela] to be picked as a 
>Champion for the Triwizard Tournament.

>As for the other veela? We haven't seen anything of them except that 
>they give off the supernatural pheremone that urges men to do stupid 
>things to impress them.

I might quibble with Susan's choice of the word "worthless"--but try 
"vicious and bloodthirsty" instead.  The evidence is the QWC, where we 
learn that if you tick off a veela she's liable to turn into a monster 
and try to kill you.  Not the most complimentary portrayal of an 
attractive woman.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
 Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best.
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed May 30 16:27:48 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:27:48 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Snape at the 3rd Task?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E8@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19792


>  > 
> > 
> > But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating.
> > After all, the tournament was going on, so he
> > couldn't get up and walk away without attracting
> > attention.   
> > Vicky
> > 
> 

I wonder if Snape was at the 3rd task in the first place. I don't have my
book here, but I don't remember him as being one of the monitors that walks
around the maze, waiting for wand flares - if he wasn't among them, could it
be possible that he was sitting in his dungeon, working on some nefarious
and smelly potion, thinking, "Razzenfrazzem, Hufflepuff and Gryffindor,
bratty kids keeping my wonderful slytherins from the competition," or "If it
wasn't for those scheming kids..." when the dark mark started to burn on his
arm...?  
I have a sinking feeling that the reason he didn't find Dumbledore at the
Task as soon as the mark on his arm burned black was (a) because he did go
to Voldemort then, or (b) because he wasn't at the Task and given the
apparating ban at hogwarts, it took him a few minutes to get to Dumbledore -
remember - the mark didn't burn until a while after Harry & Cedric
disapeared, so if the crowd didn't know about the disapearance, there were
only about 5-8 minutes between when the DEs were summoned & when Harry came
back. 



From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 16:37:30 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:37:30 -0000
Subject: Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <0878.010528@matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <9f37ka+7vsr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19793

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tamfiiris <tamf at m...> wrote:
> or it could be to contrast his father's: Lucius / Darco... teehee...

Actually, even though you meant it as a joke, there is a parallel
here.

"Drakon" in Greek is suggested etymologically to be related to
"derkesthai" (also Greek) = "to see, to look at", which in turn is
related to the Old English, "torht" = "bright".  (No relation to
"torch", however, and "dark" is also unrelated.)  The concept would
have been "monster with the evil eye" per Pokorny.

Other English derivatives include dragoon, [fire]drake, rankle, and
probably tarragon....

....Craig





From purplefanta at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 16:49:45 2001
From: purplefanta at yahoo.com (Melissa Smith)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:49:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <20010530130902.5921.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010530164945.72464.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19794

Well, this is my first post, and I may have this
theory totally wrong, but I think I have an idea as
how the twins overlooked Peter on the map.

When we see that Ron has Scabbers, it doesn't say that
he JUST got him- I assumed he had owned him for a
while. So picture Percy owning the rat, he gives him
to Ron sometime before Fred and George get to
Hogwarts.  The two of them find the map, figue out how
to use it, and memorize the passageways.  They don't
really care about the fact that it can locate people,
otherwise, they wouldn't have given it to Harry.  By
the time Ron gets to school with Scabbers, the twins
are barely using the map, and if they do, they
probably don't look at where Ron is- he barely knows
his way around as a first year.  Map is given to
Harry, but Harry has never heard of Peter and just
assumes it is a student.  Remember, he only used the
map a few times, mostly at night.  Before he can
notice anything suspicious about Moody, it gets taken
away.

I think that explains a lot, even if it doesn't, it
was an idea that I had floating around.

Melissa


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From margdean at erols.com  Wed May 30 16:10:03 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:10:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
References: <9f31tv+iorm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B151B5B.2BAB16D7@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19795

Indigo wrote:
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> A really good two chapter summary!
> 
> > Questions:
> 
> > 1. It occurs to Harry that the Marauder's Map may be a Dark object;
> > it puts  him in mind of Mr. Weasley's dictum about mysterious
> > magical objects, and he  hesitates to use it, but overcomes his
> > doubts "quite suddenly, as though  following orders."  What do you
> > make of the pull the Map seems to have on  him?
> 
> I think it was just Harry rationalizing it.  The original Marauders,
> after all were just a bunch of high-spirited teenagers who liked to
> get into trouble and cause it -- but nothing harmful. The same case
> is true of the Brothers Weasley.

=I= can't help wondering if it has something to do with the fact
that Harry's father was one of the map-makers.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 30 17:13:34 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:13:34 -0000
Subject: Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <20010530164945.72464.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f39nu+5qm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19796

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melissa Smith <purplefanta at y...> wrote:
> Well, this is my first post, and I may have this
> theory totally wrong, but I think I have an idea as
> how the twins overlooked Peter on the map.
> 
> When we see that Ron has Scabbers, it doesn't say that
> he JUST got him- I assumed he had owned him for a
> while. So picture Percy owning the rat, he gives him
> to Ron sometime before Fred and George get to
> Hogwarts.  The two of them find the map, figue out how
> to use it, and memorize the passageways.  They don't
> really care about the fact that it can locate people,
> otherwise, they wouldn't have given it to Harry.  By
> the time Ron gets to school with Scabbers, the twins
> are barely using the map, and if they do, they
> probably don't look at where Ron is- he barely knows
> his way around as a first year.  Map is given to
> Harry, but Harry has never heard of Peter and just
> assumes it is a student.  Remember, he only used the
> map a few times, mostly at night.  Before he can
> notice anything suspicious about Moody, it gets taken
> away.
> 
> I think that explains a lot, even if it doesn't, it
> was an idea that I had floating around.
> 
> Melissa

Nice one - it may even be that Fred and George realise that 
Scabbers' "real name" is Peter Pettigrew - but the name means nothing 
to them (they would have been 3 at the crucial time), and of course 
they keep quiet about it since they would have to explain about the 
map.  They may assume he's just another magical animal - after all, 
Mrs Norris shows up on the map.

Welcome to the group (I say that, though I've only been around about 
a month)

David




From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 17:27:53 2001
From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Snape - Triwizard Portkey (Time Turner?)
Message-ID: <20010530172753.55886.qmail@web5409.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19797

Dave: suppose the Triwizard Portkey was designed to return to outside

the maze *and* only a few seconds in time after it departed!  This
would clear up the thing that has been bothering me: why Snape is
sitting there on his keister all the time between feeling the Dark
Mark return and Harry's rematerialization.  This way, there was no
pause between the two events.


Vicky: But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating. After
all, the  tournament was going on, so he couldn't get up and walk
away without attracting attention. Also, I doubt Snape would get a
good reception with Voldy, and I don't think he could have done
anything for Harry. The Dark Lord demands obedience, and if Snape
went against him so blatantly by trying to help Harry, he'd have a
whole bunch of Death Eaters, plus Voldy, to contend with. Wouldn't it
have also shown support for Voldy if Snape went after Harry?
____________________

Well, for one you can't apparate onto Hogwarts grounds.  (Haven't you
read Hogwarts: A History?)  Secondly, if we trust Dumbledore (which I
do) Snape is no longer a Dark Wizard.  He may be a nasty person - but
he is still on the same side as Harry in the large scheme of things. 
It is a dangerous thing (as we have seen) to be less than faithful to
Voldemort, so I really do not think that Snape would have switched
sides without much careful and intentional thought.  

As for the death mark, it seems more or less permanent.  Just because
Snape is no longer a Death Eater, doesn't mean that the mark would
necessarily dissappear.

As for the Triwizard cup being a Time Turner...that's a good theory. 
But I wonder as well, if they would have needed that much time
changed.  Give them maybe 5 minutes to realize that there was a
problem after Harry and Cedric touched the cup,  then 10 minutes to
get to the center of the maze (I can't remember the exact dimensions
of a Quidditch pitch, but it is bound to be quite large and you
cannot apparate on Hogwarts grounds, so whoever went to the center
would have to walk there).  That would be a total of 15 minutes and I
doubt that Harry was gone for much longer that 20 minutes.  (Also add
in a little bit of travel time.  Seeing as the Weasley's clock has a
section for traveling, even appartating is not instantaneous).

- Jamie

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From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 17:31:41 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:31:41 -0000
Subject: Was Snape at the 3rd Task?
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E8@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9f3apt+jphj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19798

Vicky wrote:
> > > But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating.
> > > After all, the tournament was going on, so he
> > > couldn't get up and walk away without attracting
> > > attention.   
> > > Vicky

Heidi wrote:
<snip>
> I have a sinking feeling that the reason he didn't find Dumbledore 
at the
> Task as soon as the mark on his arm burned black was (a) because he 
did go
> to Voldemort then, or (b) because he wasn't at the Task and given 
the
> apparating ban at hogwarts, it took him a few minutes to get to 
Dumbledore -
> remember - the mark didn't burn until a while after Harry & Cedric
> disapeared, so if the crowd didn't know about the disapearance, 
there were
> only about 5-8 minutes between when the DEs were summoned & when 
Harry came
> back.

I had always assumed that the spectators couldn't see inside the 
maze.  (Doesn't Harry say he can't see the crowd -- I realize it 
could be charmed so that the crowd can see in and the players can't 
see OUT, but....)  Especially since no one stopped Krum from 
attacking the others -- if they could see into the maze, shouldn't 
they have tried to stop the Imperioused Krum?  I really don't think 
that anyone knew that Harry and Cedric had disappeared.  Snape, if he 
was there, couldn't have had any idea that Harry was missing, or that 
he had anything to do with the Dark Mark burning black unitl Harry 
and limp Cedric re-appeared on the Pitch.
Stephanie






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 17:35:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:35:26 -0000
Subject: Was Snape at the 3rd Task?
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E8@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <9f3b0u+1ptr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19799

Heidi wrote:

> I have a sinking feeling that the reason he didn't find Dumbledore 
at the
> Task as soon as the mark on his arm burned black was (a) because he 
did go
> to Voldemort then, or (b) because he wasn't at the Task and given 
the
> apparating ban at hogwarts, it took him a few minutes to get to 
Dumbledore -
> remember - the mark didn't burn until a while after Harry & Cedric
> disapeared, so if the crowd didn't know about the disapearance, 
there were
> only about 5-8 minutes between when the DEs were summoned & when 
Harry came
> back.

There's no evidence that Snape was at the Third Task, you're right, 
but why the sinking feeling?

If I had to put money on it, I'd say he wasn't at the graveyard and 
that he's the DE Voldemort plans to kill.  However, if Snape did heed 
Voldemort's summons, I think it was for a good reason, and with 
Dumbledore's blessing.  (It does provide a good answer to one Red 
Flag:  why does Snape flinch when Harry starts to name who was there?)

Ah, so many things I can't wait to find out about in Book 5!

Anyway . . .

As regards option (b), I think it's more than 8 minutes between the 
reappearance of the Mark and Harry's return.  It takes a few minutes 
for the DEs to appear, then Voldemort goes round the circle, then he 
tells his whole story, and then there's the duel.  I just timed myself 
reading a bit of Voldemort's speech to the Death Eaters (bwahahaha!) 
and it took me 1 1/2 - 2 minutes per page.  Before he even gets to the 
duel, he talks for almost 15 minutes by my reckoning.  I'm not sure 
how it would matter, given that Apparating takes only a second 
regardless of where you're coming from (up to whatever the distance 
limit is, that is).  Even if he was shopping in Diagon Alley at the 
time (perhaps contemplating taking the plunge and buying off-black 
robes for a change), it would only take him a minute to get to the 
Hogwarts Apparition point and a few minutes to get to 
Dumbledore--easily getting there before Harry reappeared.  But what's 
the timing issue?  I'm confused.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 "Before we begin our banquet, I would like 
 to say a few words.  And here they are: 
 Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
            --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------------




From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 17:40:41 2001
From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:40:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The First Prediction - Tom Riddle
Message-ID: <20010530174041.8704.qmail@web5406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19800

I have a very solid gut feeling that Prof. Trelawney's first
prediction has to do with Harry's defeating Voldemort.  However, my
hunch is that it is perhaps a two-part prediction - along the lines
of someone who will both defeat and destroy the Dark Lord (but
phrased more cryptically if not more elegantly!) This would explain
those like Fudge who refuse to believe that Voldemort has returned to
power.  They would assume that the he had been destroyed like the
prediction stated, instead of truly seeing it as the first part of
the prediction.

As well, I'm sure this has been brought up, but I will bring it up
again.  It says that Tom Riddle had black hair as well.  Also, Harry,
when looking at the diary in CoS, says the name was familiar, like
the name of a childhood friend.  What if in fact the two were related
somehow?  Maybe it was a relative of Tom's who was going to be his
downfall - thus the killing of Tom Riddle, Sr. and all the Potter's
as well.  (This would also allow for Lily to be spared).  (And it
would be interesting for Harry to be related to both Slytherin and
Gryffindor).

What do you all think?

- Jamie

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From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Wed May 30 17:47:52 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:47:52 -0000
Subject: Moodys age
Message-ID: <9f3bo8+c2cb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19801

OK, here's a point I came upon when reading Amys excellent synopsis 
of PoA chapter 10, and considering with it the recent descussions of 
JKR rewrite of GoF to replace Davey Gudgeon with Moody.

Lupin says that shortly after the Whomping Willow was planted, a boy 
named Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye to it. Lupin says that the 
tree was planted the same year he first went to hogwarts (makes 
sense, considering it was planted to protect his wolf-time lair). For 
Davey Gudgeon to have had an incident with the tree he must have been 
in the same year as, or younger than Lupin. I don't see Moody as 
being the same age or younger as Lupin. It seems to me that Moody was 
an experienced Auror during the post-Voldemort trials, due to his 
presence there, and his reparte with Dumbledore at the time. Also, 
Moody was retired in PoA, hence he must have been alot older than 
Lupin. It seems, therefore, unlikely to me that Davey Gudgeon was 
simply a replacement for Moody following a JKR rewrite.

For her to have rewritten such an important character, and include 
such details as the post-voldemort trials, I doubt she would have 
missed some of the other ommisions that members put down to that.

The pensieve chapter, and the fact that Moody originally brought 
Karkarof in both seem, to me, to indicate that he is alot older than 
Lupin, which, to me, discounts the idea that this character Davey 
Gudgeon was the original Moody.



Dai




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Wed May 30 18:33:26 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (alyeskakc)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:33:26 -0600
Subject: Blame the wolfie?
Message-ID: <MEEOLIKFMFJHEDLIANECEEBJCAAA.alyeskakc@netzero.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19802

Heidi Wrote:

>My guess is that Peter, while in rat form, spied on a conversation between
>either Sirius & Remus, James & Remus or Lily & Remus, where the subject
>matter discussed was known only to the four of them, and provided
>information about that conversation to Voldemort. If Voldemort then acted
on
>that information, Sirius, James & Lily would only have had Remus to blame
>unless the thought of Rat!Peter spying on the conversation occurred to
them.
>If they had reasons for not thinking Peter was the spy, then Remus would've
>been the logical, practical and blameworthy target.


Also if I remember correctly Voldemort had all manner of dark creatures
coming
to his side, this included werewolves.  I don't think that they believed
Remus
would willing turn traitor but that he was a risk because of his lycanthropy
and
Voldemort's apparent control over Dark Creatures. Rat Boy probably wasn't
suspected
as the spy because his skills were limited and he wasn't the most prominent
of
the four, thereby being less of a target for Voldie.


Cheers,
        Kristin


********************************************
"Id guess shes a banshee," Lupin whispered back. "And have I mentioned
that when there are pretty girls around, you suck at undercover? Now shut
up." -DS 13

54% Obsessed with Harry Potter
List Mom of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/All_Things_Potter


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From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 19:20:08 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 19:20:08 -0000
Subject: Is morality too simple....?  :^)
In-Reply-To: <OE638AR9ubo69rPHuJI0000465c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f3h58+lbop@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19803

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> I don't know if this post has been answered already, and if so,
> sorry. Anyway, I think intent has a lot to do with evil. Lockhart,
> IMO, is evil because he doesn't seem to care about stealing
> memories or leaving people to die. His reasoning, of course, is
> purely selfish. Dobby, however, isn't evil in my eyes, because
> though he seems to make Harry's life miserable, the good intentions
> are there. He just doesn't rationalize.

I think as humans we think a lot in binaries and tend to put good
and evil on a sliding scale.  I think this leads to easy rhetoric
and propaganda, but also an unduly immature view of motivation and a
poor judgment on character.

I don't believe "good-evil" is the only ordinate on which qualities
should be projected.  Is vanity good or evil?  How about resolve?
Pride?  Inattention to detail?  The point I guess I'm getting at is
that the characters that Rowling has created should no more be viewed
through stereotype and projection than any real person.

Yes, there is a convenience in the shorthand of lumping Voldemort,
Pettigrew, Quirrell, Lockhart, the Malfoys, Fudge, Crouch Jr., and
even Snape under the rubric of evil, but it does a disservice to
understanding the complexity of who they actually are.

....Craig




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 19:20:27 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco the Dragon?
In-Reply-To: <9f37ka+7vsr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010530192027.33801.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19804

> Other English derivatives include dragoon,
> [fire]drake, rankle, and
> probably tarragon....
> 
> ....Craig
> 

In fact, I have been using a book called "Gardener's
Latin" by Bill Neal as a reference while writing a
fanfic, and I found the following entry:

Dracunculoides--resembling
tarragon--Dracuncula--dragon-like 


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From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 30 19:27:31 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 19:27:31 -0000
Subject: Paintings
In-Reply-To: <9f2pme+2u50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f3hj3+bqee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19805

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> > Are any of the painting of anyone who has lived? 
> 
> The ones in Dumbledore's office are of past headmasters and 
> headmistresses.  We don't see them doing anything very interesting 
> (they're sleeping in GF), but I bet when they're awake they retain 
> some of the personality of the original person.  That could be very 
> annoying, having a dozen of your predecessors literally looking over 
> your shoulder ("Writing away for another DADA professor, hmm, Albus?  
> I told you the werewolf was a bad risk, but would you listen to me?  
> No . . .").

When I was checking on Snape's Christmas hat just now (which I'd
completely missed, reading too fast), I found the past headmasters
at their own Christmas dinner in Sir Cadogan's portrait.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 18:52:08 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:52:08 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating at Hogwarts
References: <20010530160908.5284.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE20lcoXSnshkeIsk7m000049d0@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19806

Snape (and Karkaroff, for that matter) did not have
the option of Apparating (even if they wanted to go to
Voldemort) because they were on the grounds of
Hogwarts!  Haven't you read Hogwarts: A History cover
to cover 27 times?  (giggle)

Barb (who's having a Hermione moment)

Yes. I did know it, but didn't feel it necessary to point that out, since I assumed everyone else knew it, too.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 18:59:00 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:59:00 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Snape at the 3rd Task?
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E8@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <OE73NqU6oXF9hf9Vu6000004845@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19807

Heidi: I wonder if Snape was at the 3rd task in the first place. 

You are right. Nothing supports this. He could have been in his dungeon. Most likely he was.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 18:45:32 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:45:32 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Lockhart - Evil?
References: <9f2upn+3bbc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE9syR7Rv2S1rYZK5lV0000495f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19808

"Obliviate", while it might *look* like "obliterate", is still
clearly the memory charm.  "Oblivion" and "oblivious" in English,
"oublier" and its derivatives in French, and "olvidar" in Spanish,
all come from "oblivisci" = "to forget" in Latin, as would presumably
"obliviate".

....Craig

Interesting observation. Seen in this light, Lockhart might not be evil. It's bad to make people conveniently forget things, but not evil in my view. In fact, in some cases, perhaps it's better to forget things.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 19:02:40 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:02:40 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
References: <9f31tv+iorm@eGroups.com> <3B151B5B.2BAB16D7@erols.com>
Message-ID: <OE20TANZwwPcMFlF8HG000049d1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19809

Margaret: =I= can't help wondering if it has something to do with the fact
that Harry's father was one of the map-makers.

I don't think Harry knew who the manufacturers were when he first had the map. Even when Snape makes that crack about getting the 
afore-mentioned map from the manufacturers to Lupin, Harry is confused and has no idea what he means. He doesn't know who MWPP are.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 19:21:14 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:21:14 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape - Triwizard Portkey (Time Turner?)
References: <20010530172753.55886.qmail@web5409.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE51hEUsebmspH2q6Dq0000489b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19810

Vicky: But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating. After
all, the  tournament was going on, so he couldn't get up and walk
away without attracting attention. Also, I doubt Snape would get a
good reception with Voldy, and I don't think he could have done
anything for Harry. The Dark Lord demands obedience, and if Snape
went against him so blatantly by trying to help Harry, he'd have a
whole bunch of Death Eaters, plus Voldy, to contend with. Wouldn't it
have also shown support for Voldy if Snape went after Harry?

Jamie: Well, for one you can't apparate onto Hogwarts grounds.  (Haven't you
read Hogwarts: A History?)  

*sighs* I answered this in the post to Barb.

Jamie: Secondly, if we trust Dumbledore (which I
do) Snape is no longer a Dark Wizard.  He may be a nasty person - but
he is still on the same side as Harry in the large scheme of things. 

I'm sure of it. I'm a Snape fan, so of course, I'd want to believe anything good about him.

Jamie: It is a dangerous thing (as we have seen) to be less than faithful to
Voldemort, so I really do not think that Snape would have switched
sides without much careful and intentional thought.  

I believe you misunderstood my point here. When I mentioned showing support for Voldy, I meant that if Snape answered his call, wouldn't it be dangerous for him, and wouldn't it belittle Snape's betrayal if he went back? Dumbledore certainly wouldn't trust him, and that seems to be Snape's most treasured possession at this point. I didn't say I thought Snape would go back to Voldy.

Jamie: As for the death mark, it seems more or less permanent.  Just because
Snape is no longer a Death Eater, doesn't mean that the mark would
necessarily dissappear.

Agreed. I don't think it disappears in the figurative sense, but I do think it can only be seen when Voldy is close by. It's invisible when he isn't. I take this view because Snape told Fudge the mark was "getting clearer and clearer all year," or something to this effect. Also, he said something about the mark being clearer an hour ago, when it burned black, but that it was still visible. Hope this helps.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed May 30 19:34:21 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:34:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Snape at the 3rd Task?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90EE@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19811


Amy asked
> As regards option (b), I think it's more than 8 minutes between the 
> reappearance of the Mark and Harry's return.  It takes a few minutes 
> for the DEs to appear, then Voldemort goes round the circle, then he 
> tells his whole story, and then there's the duel.  I just 
> timed myself 
> reading a bit of Voldemort's speech to the Death Eaters (bwahahaha!) 
> and it took me 1 1/2 - 2 minutes per page.  Before he even 
> gets to the 
> duel, he talks for almost 15 minutes by my reckoning.  I'm not sure 
> how it would matter, given that Apparating takes only a second 
> regardless of where you're coming from (up to whatever the distance 
> limit is, that is).  Even if he was shopping in Diagon Alley at the 
> time (perhaps contemplating taking the plunge and buying off-black 
> robes for a change), it would only take him a minute to get to the 
> Hogwarts Apparition point and a few minutes to get to 
> Dumbledore--easily getting there before Harry reappeared.  But what's 
> the timing issue?  I'm confused.

The timing issue specifically relates to how long it would take Snape,
without apparating, to get from a location on the Hogwarts grounds to the
site of the 3rd Task to tell Dumbledore that not only is the Dark Mark
visible again, it's actually burning black - and that has only happened in
the past when Voldemort has summoned his Death Eaters to his side. In other
words, if Snape wasn't at the 3rd Task, but in his dungeon in the middle of
a potion, when the Summons came from Voldemort, he would've had to halt the
potion creation, leave the dungeon, lock it and either go on foot from there
to the Quidditch field and then find dumbledore or use the Fireplace
Traveling mechanism (which I am not sure is exactly floo poweder) to get to
the front of the school and go on foot from there. It could take 10 or 15
minutes to make this trip, easily, and during that time, we don't know of
any other way that he could let Dumbledore know about the Dark Mark.



From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 30 19:56:38 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 19:56:38 -0000
Subject: Schrodinger's Cat and schnoogles
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEAJDKAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9f3j9m+bkmt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19812

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon at h...> wrote:
> Robert: <<<Well, I'm baffled; I looked up _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find
> Them_ and I don't see _anything_ about Schnoogles, but are they perhaps the
> same as Puffskeins?>>>
> 
> Schnoogles - the great debate reopens. This is a term derived in
> fanfic to describe a sort of hug. Since then it has started to
> enter into the vocabulary of some members of the group, much to
> the confusion of others.

Last time around, did you find a mildly suggestive portrait of...
something...at
http://www.armiks.com/krystonia/Retired-15/Retired-16/Retired-17/Retired-18/Retired-19/retired-21.html

(unusual URL...)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 30 20:31:34 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:31:34 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f3lb6+ac0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19813

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
>
> Chapter 10 The Marauder's Map
> 
> Chapter 11 The Firebolt
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 4. Fudge says that Black's part in the Potters' deaths "isn't
> widely known."  Is there any significance to the reason why
> not, i.e., is it deliberately being kept secret, and if so,
> why?

Perhaps it _is_ widely "known", and Fudge is just exaggerating
his own importance, as one of the Few who know the Sordid
Secret of Sirius Black.

> 6. How does the Fidelius Charm work?  Does it hide you from
> everybody, from one person only, from a selected list . . . ?

>From everybody except the Secret-Keeper, I think - _until_ the
Secret-Keeper releases the secret.  At that point, I conjecture
that the spell's broken, and anyone can find you.  Perhaps the
final proof for Sirius that Peter had caved in to Voldemort was
that Sirius _was_ able to go straight to Godric's Hollow to look
for the Potters.

On the other hand, an after-effect of the Charm could account
for the circumstances of the Potters' deaths not being widely
known.

> 9. Is Snape's vulture-topped-hat cracker favor (a) a plant
> by Dumbledore, (b) evidence that wizard crackers magically
> respond to the psyche of whoever pulls them, (c ) a coincidence,
> or (d) something else?

Coincidence, in that real-life Christmas cracker hats are supposed
to  be absurd, and vulture hats are perhaps comically out-of-date
chic in certain wizarding circles.  I'll claim support, having
checked the first Hogwarts Christmas we see, in PS, from the
top hat that Professor McGonnagall gets.

OTOH, everyone knows about Neville and the Boggart, so it could
be a plant - or psychic sensitivity on the part of the crackers -
reading Dumbledore's mind, or the children's.  A charm of that
sort would probably be designed for children?

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Wed May 30 20:36:24 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:36:24 -0000
Subject: Snape's flinch (was Was Snape at the 3rd Task?)
In-Reply-To: <9f3b0u+1ptr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f3lk8+7n7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19814

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> However, if Snape did heed 
> Voldemort's summons, I think it was for a good reason, and with 
> Dumbledore's blessing.  (It does provide a good answer to one Red 
> Flag:  why does Snape flinch when Harry starts to name who was 
there?)

Now *I'm* confused. I thought that Snape flinching was evidence that 
he was not at the DE scene - if he had been he would have known who 
they were and that Harry could identify them.  The flinching might be 
because Snape had hoped that Malfoy wouldn't go back to Voldemort - 
maybe he cares about Draco.  Or are you suggesting that he didn't 
want Harry to blurt what they both knew, or that he thought Harry was 
about to finger *him*?

I agree, it feels like a long time Harry was gone, both before and 
after Voldemort's signal.

David




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 30 20:40:04 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:40:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11 - Motorbike discrepancy
In-Reply-To: <9f2d0r+ut2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f3lr4+10b74@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19815

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:

> I think that Sirius must have had other grounds for believing
> the spy to be Lupin.

Did Black strongly believe that Lupin was the spy?  I'm not sure
that's indicated other than in the fact that Black didn't tell
Lupin about the switch of Secret-Keeper, and that might be simply
good security practice, need to know.  They say "Three can keep a
secret if two of them are dead" -

(Sorry, that's rather an unfortunate proverb in this context.)

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com  Wed May 30 20:40:04 2001
From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:40:04 -0000
Subject: Snape - Triwizard Portkey (Time Turner?)
In-Reply-To: <OE51hEUsebmspH2q6Dq0000489b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f3lr4+bge1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19816

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> Vicky: But then, I doubt Snape had the option of aparating. After
> all, the  tournament was going on, so he couldn't get up and walk
> away without attracting attention. Also, I doubt Snape would get a
> good reception with Voldy, and I don't think he could have done
> anything for Harry. The Dark Lord demands obedience, and if Snape
> went against him so blatantly by trying to help Harry, he'd have a
> whole bunch of Death Eaters, plus Voldy, to contend with. Wouldn't 
it
> have also shown support for Voldy if Snape went after Harry?
> 
> Jamie: Well, for one you can't apparate onto Hogwarts grounds.  
(Haven't you
> read Hogwarts: A History?)  
> 
> *sighs* I answered this in the post to Barb.
> 
> Jamie: Secondly, if we trust Dumbledore (which I
> do) Snape is no longer a Dark Wizard.  He may be a nasty person - 
but
> he is still on the same side as Harry in the large scheme of 
things. 
> 
> I'm sure of it. I'm a Snape fan, so of course, I'd want to believe 
anything good about him.
> 
> Jamie: It is a dangerous thing (as we have seen) to be less than 
faithful to
> Voldemort, so I really do not think that Snape would have switched
> sides without much careful and intentional thought.  
> 
> I believe you misunderstood my point here. When I mentioned showing 
support for Voldy, I meant that if Snape answered his call, wouldn't 
it be dangerous for him, and wouldn't it belittle Snape's betrayal if 
he went back? Dumbledore certainly wouldn't trust him, and that seems 
to be Snape's most treasured possession at this point. I didn't say I 
thought Snape would go back to Voldy.
> 
> Jamie: As for the death mark, it seems more or less permanent.  
Just because
> Snape is no longer a Death Eater, doesn't mean that the mark would
> necessarily dissappear.
> 
> Agreed. I don't think it disappears in the figurative sense, but I 
do think it can only be seen when Voldy is close by. It's invisible 
when he isn't. I take this view because Snape told Fudge the mark 
was "getting clearer and clearer all year," or something to this 
effect. Also, he said something about the mark being clearer an hour 
ago, when it burned black, but that it was still visible. Hope this 
helps.
> 
> Vicky


Vicky, 

I think I did misunderstand your post a little.  (And sorry for the 
repetition - I get the posts in digest form and i didn't get the 
previous responses)  So, it sounds like we are on the same page here.

- Jamie

P.S. I also think you are total right on about the Dark Mark.  Sorry 
about the confusion!




From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Wed May 30 20:43:07 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:43:07 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <OE20TANZwwPcMFlF8HG000049d1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f3m0r+981t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19817

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:
> Margaret: =I= can't help wondering if it has something to do with the fact
> that Harry's father was one of the map-makers.
> 
> I don't think Harry knew who the manufacturers were when he first had the map. Even when Snape makes that crack about getting the 
> afore-mentioned map from the manufacturers to Lupin, Harry is confused and has no idea what he means. He doesn't know who MWPP are.

Not consciously - but perhaps the map does have something of
his father's spirit about it.

But it also may simply be deviously designed to lure any user into
exploring secret passages...

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed May 30 21:03:31 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:03:31 -0000
Subject: Chap 10 & 11 Summary
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f3n73+4a07@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19818

Excellent summary and questions, Amy Z.!
> 
> 1. It occurs to Harry that the Marauder's Map may be a Dark object; 
it puts  him in mind of Mr. Weasley's dictum about mysterious magical 
objects, and he  hesitates to use it, but overcomes his doubts "quite 
suddenly, as though  following orders."  What do you make of the pull 
the Map seems to have on him?>

I think I'd use the map too.  Harry is despressed about having to stay 
at Hogwarts and here is a seemingly foolproof way to get into 
Hogsmeade without getting caught.  We also know that Harry doesn't 
take Sirius too seriously, so why should the thought of meeting him in 
a dark and lonely tunnel stop him?
> 
> 2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be?

Well, everything really, but those Chocoballs filled with strawberry 
mousse and clotted cream make my mouth water right now.
> 
> 3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the secret 
> passages?  If not, how?

As a dog, he might just be able to wander onto the grounds as he 
pleased, but I'm sure he used the passages as well.  He certainly knew 
about them, after having used them many times as a student.
> 
> 4. Fudge says that Black's part in the Potters' deaths "isn't widely 
known."    Is there any significance to the reason why not, i.e., is 
it deliberately  being kept secret, and if so, why?

Why Voldie was after them isn't widely known either.  I'm sure we'll 
find out more later.
 
> 6. How does the Fidelius Charm work?  Does it hide you from 
everybody, from  one person only, from a selected list . . . ?

Didn't Flitwick say it was a complex spell?  I believe that if the 
Potters needed to hide from Voldie, than he was the one who couldn't 
find them, even if someone said "Look! There they are!".  Obviously 
the spell needs to actually be broken for the hiding ones to be found.
>  
> 10. Is Trelawney's prediction that either Ron or Harry will 
predecease the others at the table going to come true?

I'm definitely keeping an eye out for that, but it's so easy to 
interpret her comments as mere superstition.  She just isn't reliable 
to me, and if her "prediction" turns out to be true, I'll be 
heartbroken... but I'll still think it's a coincidence.
 
> 11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for 
him?

Hey - who said he fled?  Trelawney herself!  I don't find her the most 
reliable source of information.  Lupin could very well have said a 
simple "No thanks", and she interpreted that as him fleeing for his 
life from her awesome powers.  
> 
--jenny from ravenclaw********************




From lotte at teepe.com  Wed May 30 14:54:42 2001
From: lotte at teepe.com (Lotte Douze)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:54:42 +0200
Subject: Pettigrew and the marauder's map/Scabbers
References: <991250528.2931.63628.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B1509B2.7080800@teepe.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19819

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melissa Smith <purplefanta at y...> wrote:
> 
>> When we see that Ron has Scabbers, it doesn't say that
>> he JUST got him- I assumed he had owned him for a
>> while. So picture Percy owning the rat, he gives him
>> to Ron sometime before Fred and George get to
>> Hogwarts.  The two of them find the map, figue out how
>> to use it, and memorize the passageways.  They don't
>> really care about the fact that it can locate people,
>> otherwise, they wouldn't have given it to Harry.  By
>> the time Ron gets to school with Scabbers, the twins
>> are barely using the map, and if they do, they
>> probably don't look at where Ron is- he barely knows
>> his way around as a first year.  Map is given to
>> Harry, but Harry has never heard of Peter and just
>> assumes it is a student.  Remember, he only used the
>> map a few times, mostly at night.  Before he can
>> notice anything suspicious about Moody, it gets taken
>> away.
> 

Yeah, it is possible. But how about thihs?
I have been thinking a lot about the Marauder's map while I was reading 
the books and I could never quite figure out how it is possible that 
Harry notices only a couple of people on the map. I mean, if it would 
show all the people in Hogwarts, it would be pretty crowdy and 
confusing. So when I was reading the posts on this topic the thought 
came to me that maybe it shows only the people, who are known to the 
user, on the map. That would explain why F&G and Harry (who imho would 
be suspicious to see an unknown student around Ron all the time) can't 
see Pettigrew, and why Harry won't see Sirius, who should have been on 
the map, because IIRC the shrieking shack was on it as well, and he 
(Sirius) is roaming the grounds a lot, where Harry sees him in dog form.

It might explain why Snape doesn't see two Harries and Hemriones, 
because he doesn't know the futureHarry and futureHermione

I haven't thought about it at length, so I'mcurious to know what your 
thoughts are about this.
Lotte

>> 
> 
> Nice one - it may even be that Fred and George realise that 
> Scabbers' "real name" is Peter Pettigrew - but the name means nothing 
> to them (they would have been 3 at the crucial time), and of course 
> they keep quiet about it since they would have to explain about the 
> map.  They may assume he's just another magical animal - after all, 
> Mrs Norris shows up on the map.
> 
> Welcome to the group (I say that, though I've only been around about 
> a month)
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed May 30 21:21:38 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:21:38 -0000
Subject: I Love CoS, too!
In-Reply-To: <9f1uq2+f8on@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f3o92+a776@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19820

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> > 
> One of the reasons that I LOVE CoS (while everyone else does not)
> is the ending.....

I too have been curious that CoS seems to be regarded as the ugly 
duckling by so many on this group.

It was CoS that really made me an HP fan.  I first read PS/SS in 
December 1999 - while I enjoyed the book, I was ("with shame it is 
written, with sorrow it is read") really not blown away by it. It 
wasn't until May 2000 that I finally picked up CoS. I read the entire 
book in a single day, and then rushed out to get Azkaban the next 
day. (and I only had to wait two months for the next installment!)

I feel that, enjoyable though PS/SS was, it was really in CoS that 
JKR came into her own as a writer.  It's here that we first start to 
get a better picture of the wizarding world and its long history, as 
well as a greater clarification of the social rankings (eg., the 
Malfoys vs, the Weasleys, the purebloods vs. Muggle-born). I love all 
the new characters: Lockhart and Dobby are great comic creations, as 
is Myrtle. Arthur Weasley and Lucius Malfoy present us with 
contrasting benevolent and malevolent paternal images. The 
Harry/Hermione/Ron relationship becomes truly intricate here. Harry's 
confrontation with Tom Riddle (I never guessed he was really Voldy, 
but I never figure whodunnits out)  is electrifying, and one of the 
high points of the Canon so far.  And Harry's liberation of Dobby is 
the most satisfying conclusion of any of the canon to date.

  - CMC

 




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed May 30 21:36:07 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:36:07 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Schroedinger's Stag
In-Reply-To: <9f2ndg+1un4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010530143509.02c4aee0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19821

At 12:00 PM 5/30/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>The only reason SecondHarry cast the Patronus--the thing that made him
>able to do it--was that FirstHarry saw him do it.  So which happened
>"first"?  It can't be that FirstHarry happened "first," because
>FirstHarry witnessed SecondHarry conjuring the Patronus.  It can't be
>that SecondHarry happened "first," because he only conjured the
>Patronus because FirstHarry had seen it conjured.
>
>Therefore, it is impossible for either one of them to have happened
>before the other.  Each event is the cause of the other.

And that's exactly what a "Closed Timelike Loop" is -- Thanks, Amy,
for explaining it much better than I did.  :)



                         -- Dave




From empressmercury at hotmail.com  Wed May 30 21:54:28 2001
From: empressmercury at hotmail.com (empressmercury at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:54:28 -0000
Subject: *burst out laughing*
In-Reply-To: <9f1bu6+pavg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f3q6k+5j7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19822

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Samantha" <samanthakent72 at h...> wrote:
> > Hi all it's Samantha, thought it would be time to post on this 
thing. 
> > first off, schnoogles to Carole......
> 
> Well, I'm baffled; I looked up _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find
> Them_ and I don't see _anything_ about Schnoogles, but are they
> perhaps the same as Puffskeins?

OK.  Schnooglies are (as Samantha says): 
 "it's like smochies and huggs and all that"
> 
> I think my doughnut craving is reduced, anyway, which is good.
> Can you please share any similar thoughts concerning cookies
> or chocolate? :-)
> 

**laughs**  Ha!  Well, seeing as Samantha simply *hates* her job, she 
probably won't stay on that subject for long without having to kill 
someone (like Keith . . .).

> Robert Carnegie
> Glasgow, Scotland
> 
> "I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed 
American
> office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
> Stupid Things Overheard)

Answerer of questions needed answers,
~Gwen (but now, you all know my name, thanks to Samantha . . . 
**grows off mumbling about certain people who can't keep their mouths 
shut**
(who is so proud of herself because she made Carole laugh ^_^)





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Wed May 30 22:25:49 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:25:49 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <F1312xqmTqZHotpk7y80000ae09@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f3s1d+lvl6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19823

> Questions:
> 
> 1. It occurs to Harry that the Marauder's Map may be a Dark object; 
it puts him in mind of Mr. Weasley's dictum about mysterious magical 
objects, and he hesitates to use it, but overcomes his doubts "quite 
suddenly, as though following orders."  What do you make of the pull 
the Map seems to have on him?

I don't think it has a "pull" on Harry as much as it is an excellent 
tool for accomplishing many clandestine tasks, which he realizes 
quite quickly.  

Along the same lines, I have been pondering the "never trust anything 
that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brains" 
dictum in regards to the Sorting Hat.  In GoF, we learn that the 
founding four "put some brains in me."  Everyone at Hogwarts trusts 
it to place him/her in the right house.  We can't see where it keeps 
its brains, so why should we trust it?

> 
> 2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be?

Droobles Best Blowing Gum, Chocolate Frogs, the peppermint creams 
shaped like toads...
> 
> 5. How do you explain the discrepancy between Hagrid's account here 
about the motorbike (that Sirius specifically told him to keep it 
permanently) and what he says in PS/SS 1 (that he needs to return it 
to Sirius)?

I don't think it is a discrepancy at all. I imagine that Hagrid did 
borrow it from "young Sirius Black" and that, upon his trying to 
return it, Sirius then told him to keep it because, unbeknownst to 
Hagrid, he was going rat-hunting.  
> 
> 9. Is Snape's vulture-topped-hat cracker favor (a) a plant by 
Dumbledore, (b) evidence that wizard crackers magically respond to 
the psyche of whoever pulls them, (c )  a coincidence, or (d) 
something else?

(d) Hysterically funny.  I can just picture the look on his face--a 
combination of horror, distaste, and embarrassment.

> 11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for 
him?

Because he is a wise, wise man...


Trina, gearing up for her summaries next week...




From john at walton.to  Wed May 30 22:27:28 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:27:28 -0400
Subject: ADMIN: Stay On Topic on the Main List
In-Reply-To: <9f3q6k+5j7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B73AEC0F.1E3E%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 19824

::bursts out of the cupboard-under-the-stairs where he's been hiding::

::pointed cough::

Witches, Wizards and other creatures, whether Magical and non-Magical,

Please keep your posts to the main HPforGrownups list ON TOPIC. That means
things to do with the books. Personal, off-topic chatter (including "Hi
luvs_harry_1991, it's me, hermoine_iz_grate!"-type remarks) should please be
taken to the HPFGU-OTChatter list (aptly named, eh?), which can be found at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

For more information and answers to other frequently-asked questions, read
the Very Frequently-Asked Questions File at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

Why? Well, with the volume of the main list, it's a great help to those who
just want to read and reply to the on-topic postings to have off-topic
postings on a separate list. Plus, He-In-The-Hairnet, She-With-The-Baby,
He-With-The-Tech-Knowhow and Me-With-The-Rock say so. ::menacing brandish of
Rock::

--John, Moderator With Rock #47




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu May 31 01:38:58 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 01:38:58 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11 - Motorbike discrepancy
In-Reply-To: <9f2d0r+ut2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f47bi+c25d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19825

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> Over the past year Sirius
> > had believed that Remus had turned traitor (why? lingering anti 
> werewolf
> > feeling even among those who should know better?  Or was Lupin  
> acting as
> > yet another double agent?) and the knowledge of Pettigrew's 
> treachery
> > doesn't immediately exonerate Lupin - either one or both of his 
> friends must
> > be a traitor.  
> 
> I have always had a problem with this.  I think that Sirius must 
have 
> had other grounds for believing the spy to be Lupin.  If James and 
> Sirius thought so much of Lupin that they became animagi to ease 
his 
> transformations - and in doing so showed that they didn't have any 
> prejudices about werewolves - how is it at a later date these 
> prejudices somehow manifested themselves as mistrust over who was 
> spying for Voldemort?  
> 
> My guess is that it was a process of elimination.  They discounted 
> Pettigrew, although why, I can't imagine, and therefore this left 
> only Lupin.  Another idea could be that they suspected that Lupin 
was 
> under the imperious curse.  The only other thing I can think of is 
> that they thought that Voldemort may have some kind of influence 
over 
> werewolves, but in my mind, this doesn't seem very plausible, as 
they 
> would know that Lupin is only affected at certain times of the 
month, 
> and that during the rest of the time, he is as human as everyone 
else.
> 
> Catherine

My feeling on this has always been that everyone had a blind spot as 
far as Pettigrew was concerned.  I think that Sirius went through a 
process of elimination that went "I know James and Lily aren't spies, 
and neither am I, so who else can it be except Remus?"  I believe 
since Peter never seems to be credited with have superior smarts or 
to be considered at all powerful, and that he seems to have been a 
tag-along sort of person, he was ultimately overlooked.  Perhaps this 
was a factor in his turning bad -  no one ever saw his as anything 
other than slow, average Peter, always a step or two behind.  I'm 
sure Peter had feelings of inadequacy and probably always felt 
overshadowed by James etal. and this could have been a weakness the 
Death Eaters preyed upon.

Marianne




From margdean at erols.com  Thu May 31 01:01:58 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:01:58 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
References: <9f31tv+iorm@eGroups.com> <3B151B5B.2BAB16D7@erols.com> <OE20TANZwwPcMFlF8HG000049d1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B159806.55621F2E@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19826

Vicky Ra wrote:
> 
> Margaret: =I= can't help wondering if it has something to do with the fact
> that Harry's father was one of the map-makers.
> 
> I don't think Harry knew who the manufacturers were when he first had the
> map. Even when Snape makes that crack about getting the afore-mentioned map
> from the manufacturers to Lupin, Harry is confused and has no idea what he
> means. He doesn't know who MWPP are.

Of course not, but especially with magical artifacts that "keep
their brains elsewhere," I don't find it difficult to believe
that something of the maker (or makers) remains within the
artifact -- just as Tom Riddle was inside his diary.  Therefore
something of James was "in" the map, and Harry may have sensed
that unconsciously.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 31 02:16:20 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:16:20 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Snape at the 3rd Task?
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F90E8@miaexch1> <OE73NqU6oXF9hf9Vu6000004845@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE25UePldjMqV5jjdMs00004b05@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19827

Heidi: I wonder if Snape was at the 3rd task in the first place. 

Me: You are right. Nothing supports this. He could have been in his dungeon. Most likely he was.

And one more thought that occurred to me later: Even if he were in his dungeon and had to rush to tell Dumbledore, it'd still be suspicious for him to walk to wherever the Apparation point is from Hogwarts. Surely someone would notice. It also probably took some time to figure out that the Triwizard Cup was a portkey, and that Voldy might have Harry. Therefore, if Snape had been seen walking out of Hogwarts, everyone would have wondered where he was going. Sorry. I'm not good at explanations.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Thu May 31 02:14:52 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 02:14:52 -0000
Subject: Remus running from Trelawney - was Chap Summary PoA 11 & 12
In-Reply-To: <9f3s1d+lvl6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f49es+7v0b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19828

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> > Questions:
 
snip 
> > 11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for 
> him?
> 
> Because he is a wise, wise man...

Absolutely.  Remus is on the same wavelength as McGonagall when it 
comes to dealing with and believing Trelawney.  After all, he invites 
Harry in for a cup of tea on the first Hogsmeade weekend saying "I've 
only got teabags, but I daresay you've had enough of tea leaves" with 
a twinkle in his eyes....

Marianne





From editor at texas.net  Thu May 31 02:26:41 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:26:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart - Yuck!   -- sexism/banality of evil
References: <9f1t6t+45df@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B15ABE1.DDF57C46@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19829

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> But rarely are men blamed for being attracted to good looking
> worthless women (Veela)...it's the women who tend to be labeled...

But isn't the portrayal of Harry's and Ron's reactions to the veela
pretty well on the foolish, unthinking, visceral, stupid side? And don't
we have Arthur Weasley right there, showing not all men are like that
and supplying the moral? I think a balance has been neatly struck, not
one-sided at all, in this case.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu May 31 02:35:09 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:35:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
References: <9f2drl+sftb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B15ADDD.D28925B6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19830

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> He says that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant and that he,
> personally, never dreamed of renouncing him.  I think that there is
> some very selective memories going on here.  IIRC, BCJ, when being
> sentenced by his father screams and pleads with him not to send him
> back to Azkaban, protests his innocence and says that he never had
> anything to do with torturing the Longbottoms.  This is in contrast
> to the Lestranges, who are truly faithful, and who accept their
> sentences and tell the court that the Dark Lord will rise again. They
> certainly do not renounce Voldemort.
>
> I admit that BCJ does help them try and find Voldemort after he has
> lost his powers, but he certainly denies his involvement.  Therefore,
> how can he say that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant?

Because he was LYING. He was reading the situation and playing for
sympathy, trying to get off the hook, so that he could then go and aid
his master. Why does anyone think Barty Crouch Jr. meant those words as
a renunciation of Voldemort? He was doing his damnedest to get himself
free so he could continue to serve. Voldemort knows about lying.
Voldemort seems to be a firm "any means to an end" man. He understands
Crouch Jr.'s motivation, applauds it. He condemns the motivations of
those who lied so they could go back to their own lives. Intent.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu May 31 02:37:07 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:37:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Dursley's and why Harry stays there...
References: <9f2ia8+3atl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B15AE52.8EFE19F9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 19831

"M. Barnett" wrote:

> Here's my theory on why Harry always goes back to the Dursley's over
> summer break ... Voldemort can't find him there.  I think Privet
> Drive, perhaps just Number 4, perhaps the whole area has been made
> unplottable.  Of course, I could be proven very wrong, depending on
> what happens at the beginning of Book 5.

What about what happened at the beginning of Book 2, when the Weasleys
found him handily and rescued him from his room? Would they have been
able to if the house were Unplottable?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Thu May 31 02:56:01 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 02:56:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11
In-Reply-To: <3B151B5B.2BAB16D7@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9f4bs1+nsdd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19832

Margaret wrote:
(on the Map-) 
"=I= can't help wondering if it has something to do with the fact
that Harry's father was one of the map-makers."

--Can't this be why no one notices Peter Pettigrew on the map except 
Lupin? It may have been brought up before but it certainly makes 
sense that the creators of the map would have made themselves 
invisible on it to all but each other. That way if the map were ever 
to fall into the wrong hands of oh.. say Filch ( it did but of course 
he could not us it since he's a squib) it wouldn't matter because he 
wouldn't be able to see the troublemakers.

It certainly makes sense to me, but I am probably echoing someone 
elses earliar idea. I honestly can't remember.

Scott 




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 31 03:11:09 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 03:11:09 -0000
Subject: The Dursley's and why Harry stays there...
In-Reply-To: <3B15AE52.8EFE19F9@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9f4cod+8cd6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19833

> "M. Barnett" wrote:
> 
> > Here's my theory on why Harry always goes back to the Dursley's 
over
> > summer break ... Voldemort can't find him there.  I think Privet
> > Drive, perhaps just Number 4, perhaps the whole area has been made
> > unplottable.  

Here's what Voldy himself has to say, from Chap. 33 of GoF: "But how 
to get at Harry Potter?  For he has been better protected than I 
think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long 
ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future.  Dumbledore 
invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as 
he is in his relations' care.  Not even I can touch him there."

So, strangely enough, the gangly Petunia and the corpulent Dudley 
comprise a mighty fortress that can withstand the principalities and 
powers of the Dark Lord. 

  - CMC




From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu May 31 03:53:08 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 03:53:08 -0000
Subject: I Love CoS, too!--stuff about Evil--Lewis and JKR
In-Reply-To: <9f3o92+a776@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f4f74+47k0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19834

Caius wrote:

> I too have been curious that CoS seems to be regarded as the ugly 
> duckling by so many on this group.
> 
> It was CoS that really made me an HP fan.  I first read PS/SS in 
> December 1999 - while I enjoyed the book, I was ("with shame it is 
> written, with sorrow it is read") really not blown away by it. It 
> wasn't until May 2000 that I finally picked up CoS. I read the 
entire 
> book in a single day, and then rushed out to get Azkaban the next 
> day. 

I can tell a similar story.  I liked PS/SS: but didn't seek out the 
second book until the summer after PoA came out.  It was because of 
CoS that I reached for PoA and devoured it...and the rest is 
history.  

However...till I read the poll I thought I was alone in having an 
unidentifiable grudge against CoS, and think I might have identified 
what it is.

> I feel that, enjoyable though PS/SS was, it was really in CoS that 
> JKR came into her own as a writer.  It's here that we first start 
to 
> get a better picture of the wizarding world <snip>

I agree with this.  But I think I like CoS much the same way I like 
THE GOOD EARTH:  the book compels me but I hate what happens to O-
lan.  CoS compels me but I hate what happens to Ginny.  <gives a Jack 
Nicholson grimace> I am using the word *hate* here.  Oh, I concede 
that it makes the plot very satisfying at its resolution.  I even 
concede that it drags Ginny into the spotlight in a sort of macabre 
way.  But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Why then, you will say, don't I equally *hate* what happens to Harry 
with the dementors? Or to Cedric at the Riddle grave?  Well...I don't 
know.  I didn't say I'd figured it *all* out.

Now going back a little to the discussion about good vs. evil.  I 
paid particular attention to an exchange between Rebecca and I think 
Susan and Pippin about whether or not evil is bigger than good in 
JKR, whether or not the Narnia books are formulaic, and whether or 
not Aslan is the deus ex machina.

I think what set *my* bells off is when McGonagall says to Dumbledore 
in the first chapter of PS/SS that Voldemort was only afraid of Albus 
Dumbledore.  "You flatter me, my dear...Voldemort had powers I never 
will."  "Only because you're too *noble* to use them," McGonagall 
shoots back.  Well, wouldn't this imply that people who break the 
rules are the ones with the real power?  That even the best among us 
can't stand up to the potency of those who go outside the pale of 
humanity?  But Dumbledore himself limits that idea in his several 
talks with Harry ("if someone resists him again, and again, why he 
may never come back to power"; and the famous "it's our choices that 
make us who we are").  Not to mention the famous gleam.  And instead 
of calling it pragmatic, I'd call it heroic, like the star dying in 
WRINKLE IN TIME.

It's true that the Ministry makes use of Dementors and (along with 
the rest of the wizarding world) gives more credence to Voldemort by 
refusing to say his name; but I think JKR writes it more to criticize 
it than, as Blake says of Milton, be "of Satan's party without 
knowing it."  Blake makes an amusing and sometimes pretty good case 
out of PARADISE LOST; I doubt you could make as good a case of the HP 
books.  Not to compare JKR with our Great English Epic Poet or 
anything <eg>.

And as for the Narnia books, I wouldn't call them formulaic either.  
Nor would I consider Aslan the deus ex machina of the stories, or 
even in particular of THE LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE.  The 
stories may appear to be about the children, but they really *are* 
about Aslan; and the main character of a story can't be deus ex 
machina.  That would be like saying that Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn 
showing up at their own funeral is deus ex machina.  You can 
criticize it for other things, but not for that. <g>

JKR's stories are different because they *are* about people like us 
muddling through the world, not knowing any Aslans or if there even 
are any, uncertain that good will triumph but determined to do their 
part -- and meanwhile sorting out what their part actually consists 
of.  It's different stuff: but it's good different stuff.

Going to bed now.

<yawns and kicks off imaginary carpet slippers>

Lisa I.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 31 04:38:02 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 04:38:02 -0000
Subject: By The Time She Gets Out "Phoenix" (filk)
Message-ID: <9f4hra+igir@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19835

By the Time She Gets Out "Phoenix" 

(To the tune of By the Time I Get to Phoenix)

Dedicated to Ebony

(THE SCENE: The dwellings of Caius Marcius. Enter CMC)

CMC:
By the time she gets out "Phoenix" I'll be frantic 
I'll have read the Canon 50 times or more
I'll have scrolled through ev'ry website and each fanfic
Between debates about that "look" of Dumbledore 

By the time it gets to Borders, I'll be queuing
I'll stand in line all evening or even past dawn
I'll get hysterical if they should sell out
I'll be off the wall that's all

By the time I make it home, I'll be speed-reading
I'll turn pages quickly and gasp out loud 
I won't put it down until it's ended
When I finish it, time will again move slow
Despite the afterglow, there's still two books to go



   - CMC





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu May 31 05:07:38 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 06:07:38 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Viruses - warnings and hoaxes
Message-ID: <00c201c0e98f$9d7ec560$0c3770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 19836

Hi everyone,

Computer viruses can be damaging, but it's clear that hoax warnings can be
equally damaging.  Constant vigilance is vital, listlings, but if you wish
to communicate information to the group about a suspected virus, we ask that
you please:

(1) If possible, check your source and the *possibility* that the virus
warning may be a hoax.  The Symantec website, for example, lists the
SULFNBK.exe warning as a hoax (http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html);

(2) Send any information or concerns you may have to the Moderators
(HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com).  Please do not post warnings directly
to any of the HPfGU lists.

(3) Place the life jacket over your head, pull the toggle *here* to inflate
and tie in a double bow at the side.  You can pump in more air by blowing
*here* and there's a whistle *here* for attracting attention...um...ladies:
remove high heeled shoes [er, sorry... shuffling of notes...wrong
instructions]

ATTACHMENTS

No, we're not talking about your lit-lust for Severus or Sirius.  For
information, the option that allows attachments to posted messages has been
disabled in OT Chatter and Announcements (it was already turned off on the
main list).  This should lessen the possibility of viral transfer through
members of this group.  We should have done this before, so we will now sit
in a big circle at HPfGU Hexquarters and take it in turns to bang our heads
with John's Rock.

Thanks

Neil
Moderator Team
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely
a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly
squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall"
["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm








From rja.carnegie at excite.com  Thu May 31 05:57:41 2001
From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 05:57:41 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew above suspicion
In-Reply-To: <9f47bi+c25d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f4mgl+fmdk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19837

Hope this isn't a double post...

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> My feeling [...] has always been that everyone had a blind spot as 
> far as Pettigrew was concerned.  I think that Sirius went through a 
> process of elimination that went "I know James and Lily aren't spies, 
> and neither am I, so who else can it be except Remus?"  I believe 
> since Peter never seems to be credited with have superior smarts or 
> to be considered at all powerful, and that he seems to have been a 
> tag-along sort of person, he was ultimately overlooked.

Is it possible that Voldemort and Pettigrew had cast their _own_
Fidelius Charm first, the secret in their case being that
Pettigrew was working for V.?

That would account for no one suspecting Pettigrew, despite repeated
leaks of secret information, the Dark Mark, and his "Voldie Lives"
lapel button.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Thu May 31 07:23:24 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:23:24 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dursley's and why Harry stays there...
In-Reply-To: <9f4cod+8cd6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0e9a2$944caa80$0101010a@w98-1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19838


>So, strangely enough, the gangly Petunia and the corpulent Dudley
comprise a mighty fortress that can withstand the principalities and
>powers of the Dark Lord.

Well, at least that's one vaguely human trait Voldemort shares with most of
us - he is repelled by the Dursleys.  Me, I think its the crocheted
crinoline lady they almost certainly have in the bathroom covering the spare
toilet roll, or the small raffia donkeys they brought back from Majorca that
time ("I may be the representation of utimate evil but this doesn't leave me
without *any* natural taste").
Susan




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu May 31 08:03:18 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:03:18 -0000
Subject: Paintings vs. photographs
Message-ID: <9f4ts6+8f1n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19839

Just a short comment on this thread, as I see it's pretty much 
already dead.  I don't recall this being mentioned in the 
conversation, and I can't recall any instances of this in the books 
either, so maybe someone can point out where I'm wrong:  aside from 
the subjects in the paintings moving from one picture to the next and 
visiting each other, they can have 'intelligent' and interacitve 
conversations with humans.  I don't remember any instances of photos 
speaking, but there was that bit in CoS when they enter Lockhart's 
office to examine Mrs Norris.  Lockhart is babbling away while 
Dumbledore examines her and all the while his photos are nodding in 
agreement with all he says.  From this, I suppose that means that 
they can at least follow humans' conversations, but they didn't 
actually speak.  Do the photos (are they photos or paintings?) of the 
former headmasters in Dumbledore's office ever speak?  I'm thinking 
no.  Apparently if photos could speak, J&L would have been chatting 
with Harry when he looks at his album.  Someone wondered if perhaps 
there might be paintings of J&L, and I think this is a wonderful 
idea.  As much as I would love to see this, I don't think it seems 
very likely that JKR will do this.  (I've often thought that maybe 
their ghosts reside in Godric's Hollow.)  From what I recall from 
interviews and so on, she seems very firm in her stance that they 
(J&L) will not be back...

Kelley  




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu May 31 08:10:39 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:10:39 -0000
Subject: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil
In-Reply-To: <3B15ADDD.D28925B6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9f4u9v+jqno@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19840

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > He says that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant and that he,
> > personally, never dreamed of renouncing him.  I think that there 
is
> > some very selective memories going on here.  IIRC, BCJ, when being
> > sentenced by his father screams and pleads with him not to send 
him
> > back to Azkaban, protests his innocence and says that he never had
> > anything to do with torturing the Longbottoms.  This is in 
contrast
> > to the Lestranges, who are truly faithful, and who accept their
> > sentences and tell the court that the Dark Lord will rise again. 
They
> > certainly do not renounce Voldemort.
> >
> > I admit that BCJ does help them try and find Voldemort after he 
has
> > lost his powers, but he certainly denies his involvement.  
Therefore,
> > how can he say that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant?
> 
> Because he was LYING. He was reading the situation and playing for
> sympathy, trying to get off the hook, so that he could then go and 
aid
> his master. Why does anyone think Barty Crouch Jr. meant those 
words as
> a renunciation of Voldemort? He was doing his damnedest to get 
himself
> free so he could continue to serve. Voldemort knows about lying.
> Voldemort seems to be a firm "any means to an end" man. He 
understands
> Crouch Jr.'s motivation, applauds it. He condemns the motivations of
> those who lied so they could go back to their own lives. Intent.
> 
> --Amanda


You are probably right that he wanted to be free to go and find 
Voldemort, but I still think that there are issues of self-interest 
motivating him here.  His attitude towards the free death eaters is 
an indication of this.  You can say that he is angry with them 
because they do nothing to try and find Voldemort - but I think that 
he is also incredibly resentful and bitter towards them, because they 
were believed to be innocent, and he wasn't - he had already tasted 
life in Azkaban at this stage, and was desperate not to return.  This 
is why I am comparing him to the Lestranges.  They stoically accept 
their fate, and have enough faith in Voldemort to know that he will 
return and free them.  BCJ is more ambivalent about things than 
that.  He is young at the time, so a lifetime in Azkaban would seem 
like a fate worse than death - but it seems to me that he also 
doesn't trust that Voldemort can come back, or at least, not without 
help from him - which is why he pleads with his father to spare him.

Another thought about this whole issue.  I get a very strong 
impression that Barty Crouch Snr is making an example of his son.  
Depending on the strength of the evidence, do you think that if it 
had been someone else, and there was an element of doubt as to 
involvement, that BCS would have been more lenient?

Catherine




From jenfold at yahoo.com  Thu May 31 08:14:27 2001
From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:14:27 -0000
Subject: Moodys age
In-Reply-To: <9f3bo8+c2cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f4uh3+6enq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19841

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dai Evans" <dwe199 at s...> wrote:
> OK, here's a point I came upon when reading Amys excellent synopsis 
> of PoA chapter 10, and considering with it the recent descussions 
of 
> JKR rewrite of GoF to replace Davey Gudgeon with Moody.
> 
> Lupin says that shortly after the Whomping Willow was planted, a 
boy 
> named Davey Gudgeon nearly lost an eye to it. Lupin says that the 
> tree was planted the same year he first went to hogwarts (makes 
> sense, considering it was planted to protect his wolf-time lair). 
For 
> Davey Gudgeon to have had an incident with the tree he must have 
been 
> in the same year as, or younger than Lupin. I don't see Moody as 
> being the same age or younger as Lupin. It seems to me that Moody 
was 
> an experienced Auror during the post-Voldemort trials, due to his 
> presence there, and his reparte with Dumbledore at the time. Also, 
> Moody was retired in PoA, hence he must have been alot older than 
> Lupin. It seems, therefore, unlikely to me that Davey Gudgeon was 
> simply a replacement for Moody following a JKR rewrite.
> 
> For her to have rewritten such an important character, and include 
> such details as the post-voldemort trials, I doubt she would have 
> missed some of the other ommisions that members put down to that.
> 
> The pensieve chapter, and the fact that Moody originally brought 
> Karkarof in both seem, to me, to indicate that he is alot older 
than 
> Lupin, which, to me, discounts the idea that this character Davey 
> Gudgeon was the original Moody.
> 
> 
> 
> Dai

 Not quite what I meant. I don't think I implied that JKR replaced 
Davey Gudgeon with Moody.
 I was just pointing out that before GoF was even published JKR said 
in an interview that the new DADA teacher would have a magic eye and 
therefore a number of us rushed to the the 3 books that were 
published at the time and though: Ah ha Davey Gudgeon lost an 
eye/nearly lost an eye I bet he got a new magic eye and he's the next 
DADA teacher. But then GoF came out and that theory was proved to be 
wrong. So at the moment Davey is just a red herring.
 Sorry if I confused anyone else.

 Jen




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu May 31 08:55:51 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:55:51 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary 
In-Reply-To: <3B148307.7475C2D2@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9f50un+ul9r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19842

> Amy Z[ookeeper] wrote:
> > 8. Lupin says that a boy named Davey Gudgeon nearly
> > lost an eye to the Whomping Willow; Lockhart had a fan
> > named Gladys Gudgeon (CoS 7); any relation?
>
>  Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:
> JKR being JKR, I am SURE the answer is Yes. Btw, I absolutely 
believe the rumor that Book 4 was going to be HP and the Doomspell 
Tournament containing Davey Gudgeon and his magic eye as the new DADA 
teacher, but she changed the names because she resented the 
information having been leaked. "Almost lost an eye" would then have 
been a precursor to That Eye. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I believe this one, too; I soo much prefer Doomspell to Triwizard or 
Goblet of Fire.  This does however really jack with my image of ME 
Moody, though.  I see him as at least McG's age, if not older, as 
he's a friend of Dumble's.  I know there's no reason for this image, 
that's just how I see him.  (I think someone suggesting Anthony 
Hopkins for Moody has something to do with it as well; I love this 
suggestion, as it's perhaps the closest an actor's matched my own 
image of one of the characters--picture him with the hair he had 
in "Zorro".)  If Davey Gudgeon is the 'original' (in JKR's plan) ME 
Moody, though, this would make him a contemporary of the Marauders' 
and I absolutely cannot imagine him that young.  Was it ever noted in 
GoF how old Moody appeared to be?  There's just no way I can see him 
in his thirties in this book... 

Kelley





From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Thu May 31 09:48:43 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:48:43 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map boundaries nitpick; following orders; Sirius correction
Message-ID: <9f541r+ks5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19843

Rereading the relevant bits of PoA, Lupin was reading the map to keep 
an eye on Harry: 'I watched you cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's 
hut.  Twenty minutes later, you left Hagrid, and set off back towards 
the castle.  But now you were accompanied by somebody else.' (Peter)

I take this to imply that Lupin couldn't actually see inside the hut, 
otherwise he would have spotted Peter there when they arrived, if not 
before.  This would explain why, if Lupin had used the map earlier, 
Peter would not appear.

Then, Snape, later: 'One glance... told me all I needed to know.  I 
saw you running along this passageway and out of sight.'  So the 
Shrieking Shack is off the edge of the map (and hence Snape didn't 
see Peter, Black or the children).

Later still (in Harry's and Hermione's time line) they stay just 
inside the forbidden forest to hide while all this is going on, 
initially near Hagrid's hut, then towards the Willow to get a view, 
so it's plausible they were off the edge on the two occasions that we 
know the map was being looked at.

On the question Harry suddenly behaving 'as though following orders', 
it occurs to me that (as with setting Dobby free, and stabbing the 
diary with the Basilisk tooth, and maybe forcing the drops of light 
back along the wand line) Harry has a gift of knowing what to do.  
This behaviour is therefore characteristic of Harry, not the map.  
The trip to Hogsmeade is important because of Fudge's revelations 
about the Fidelius charm.

On an earlier post, I said Sirius set up base in the Shack.  I notice 
that he says that he has been living in the Forbidden Forest - in 
which case the shack is just a useful place for disposing of Peter.

David




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 31 11:51:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:51:28 -0000
Subject: Obliviation - Snape at 3rd task? at rebirthing? - Who knew about SB - CoS
Message-ID: <9f5b80+m1qf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19844

Vicky wrote:

>Interesting observation. Seen in this light, Lockhart might not be 
evil. It's
>bad to make people conveniently forget things, but not evil in my 
view. In fact,
>in some cases, perhaps it's better to forget things.

So you wouldn't object to someone reaching in and wiping out whichever 
ones of your memories =he= found inconvenient?  

There are a few things stuck in my mind that I wouldn't mind being 
able to forget, I suppose.  However, my accomplishments (which are 
what Lockhart erases from the various successful Dark Arts fighters 
around the world) and the things I urgently need to remember in order 
to keep my family safe (which is what he tries to erase from Ron) are 
not among them.

Heidi wrote:

>The timing issue specifically relates to how long it would take 
Snape,
>without apparating, to get from a location on the Hogwarts grounds to 
the
>site of the 3rd Task to tell Dumbledore that not only is the Dark 
Mark
>visible again, it's actually burning black - and that has only 
happened in
>the past when Voldemort has summoned his Death Eaters to his side. In 
other
>words, if Snape wasn't at the 3rd Task, but in his dungeon in the 
middle of
>a potion, when the Summons came from Voldemort, he would've had to 
halt the
>potion creation, leave the dungeon, lock it and either go on foot 
from there
>to the Quidditch field and then find dumbledore or use the Fireplace
>Traveling mechanism (which I am not sure is exactly floo poweder) to 
get to
>the front of the school and go on foot from there. It could take 10 
or 15
>minutes to make this trip, easily, and during that time, we don't 
know of
>any other way that he could let Dumbledore know about the Dark Mark.

Thanks for the explanation.  According to my timing, unless he were 
deep inside the Forest, or outside Hogwarts in some location from 
which he couldn't Apparate to Hogsmeade, he'd have plenty of time.  
The other exception is if the Portkey did have a time-travel element, 
so that Harry and Cedric reappeared at the edge of the maze 
immediately after disappearing from the center.

(Also, it might take 15 minutes to run from the dungeons to the 
Quidditch field, but there are other ways of communicating an 
emergency, e.g. Dumbledore's silver bird (?) that he sends to Hagrid.)

David wrote:

>I thought that Snape flinching was evidence that
>he was not at the DE scene - if he had been he would have known who
>they were and that Harry could identify them.  The flinching might be
>because Snape had hoped that Malfoy wouldn't go back to Voldemort -
>maybe he cares about Draco.  Or are you suggesting that he didn't
>want Harry to blurt what they both knew, or that he thought Harry was
>about to finger *him*?

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, but your suggestion is just as 
probable.  As I said, my guess is Snape =wasn't= at the graveyard.  
But listies have pointed out that since Voldemort doesn't identify 
every DE there, he could have been.  I do confess myself morbidly 
intrigued by the thought of Snape being undercover at this terrible 
scene, watching helplessly as Harry and all their hopes seem to be on 
the verge of destruction.

Robert wrote:

>Perhaps it _is_ widely "known", and Fudge is just exaggerating
>his own importance, as one of the Few who know the Sordid
>Secret of Sirius Black.

That does sound Fudgelike, doesn't it?  I am quite certain Ron doesn't 
know, though.  I.e., it isn't a part of the story that every kid grows 
up hearing, the way they hear the bits about Voldemort killing Lily 
and James and failing to kill Harry.  I believe I've come across a 
fanfic that suggests that Ron did know, but that makes him out to be 
very deceptive--ugh.  The same goes for Hermione; I don't think the 
Black-Potter connection made the history books.

Some people who were alive at the time knew, e.g. Arthur Weasley 
(though it's possible he's just been filled in by Fudge) and Lucius 
Malfoy (who did pass along the info to Draco).  Harry assumes that 
Hagrid knew, and it's true that somewhere along the line Hagrid learns 
the story--it doesn't seem to be news to him when Fudge tells it.

I don't necessarily think there's a conspiracy involved.  It's just a 
piece of the story that most people wouldn't have known to begin with; 
you don't need to postulate the existence of a traitor to explain how 
someone got killed by Voldemort.  Then, those who were close enough to 
the family to know would probably not spread it around--it's too sad 
and painful, plus it's somewhat tactless to talk about it because it 
suggests that Lily and James died of their own naivete (just the kind 
of thing Lucius, on the other hand, =would= enjoy pointing out at the 
dinner table).  I just wondered, that's all.

Sign me up for the CoS fan club (president, Susan McGee, 
spokesman-in-chief, CMC).  I like all the things that CM mentioned 
(minus Lockhart, though the jury's still out), plus, angst-magnet that 
I am, I like it because it is darker and more emotionally complex than 
PS/SS.

I read CoS first by mistake, knowing only the sketchiest things about 
Harry Potter when I went into it (boy wizard at school, parents killed 
when he was a baby--i.e., the stuff you learn in the first 3 pages 
anyway), and what grabbed me was Harry's inner struggle about whether 
he actually belonged in Slytherin.  That's the emotional thread that 
runs through the book, as I read it, and doesn't resolve until the 
second-to-last chapter, and it's complex and intriguing.  In short, I 
like CS for the same reasons that I love PA.  It might even be my 
=second= favorite book, though when pushed to decide for the poll, I 
chose GF for the number two spot and put CS third.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------
  "Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you--?"
  "He =is=," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" 
 he added to Harry.
  "What?" said Harry.
  "=Harry Potter=," chorused the twins.
  "Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."
                -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------





From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Thu May 31 13:03:16 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:03:16 -0000
Subject: Obliviation - Snape at 3rd task? at rebirthing? -CoS
In-Reply-To: <9f5b80+m1qf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f5fek+o2rd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19845

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> Thanks for the explanation.  According to my timing, unless he were 
> deep inside the Forest, or outside Hogwarts in some location from 
> which he couldn't Apparate to Hogsmeade, he'd have plenty of time.  
> The other exception is if the Portkey did have a time-travel 
element, 
> so that Harry and Cedric reappeared at the edge of the maze 
> immediately after disappearing from the center.
> 
> (Also, it might take 15 minutes to run from the dungeons to the 
> Quidditch field, but there are other ways of communicating an 
> emergency, e.g. Dumbledore's silver bird (?) that he sends to 
Hagrid.)
> 
> David wrote:
> 
> >I thought that Snape flinching was evidence that
> >he was not at the DE scene - if he had been he would have known who
> >they were and that Harry could identify them.  The flinching might 
be
> >because Snape had hoped that Malfoy wouldn't go back to Voldemort -
> >maybe he cares about Draco.  Or are you suggesting that he didn't
> >want Harry to blurt what they both knew, or that he thought Harry 
was
> >about to finger *him*?

Amy Z wrote:
> 
> Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, but your suggestion is just as 
> probable.  As I said, my guess is Snape =wasn't= at the graveyard.  
> But listies have pointed out that since Voldemort doesn't identify 
> every DE there, he could have been.  I do confess myself morbidly 
> intrigued by the thought of Snape being undercover at this terrible 
> scene, watching helplessly as Harry and all their hopes seem to be 
on 
> the verge of destruction.
> 

Amy Z had made some good points on an earlier post but I don't 
remember which one it was so I'll just use this one. (I also hope I 
have the right names with the right quotes). 

It never entered my mind that Snape flinched because he was at the DE 
meeting. It's a good thought.  IF he were there he would be there 
with Dumbledore's approval.  It would surely be the plan.  I too 
would be intrigued by the thought of Snape being undercover at the 
scene.  However, there are two reasons why I think he wasn't.  If the 
plan between Snape and Dumbledore was for Snape to go back to 
Voldemort, then why the scene between Dumbledore and Snape where D. 
is asking Snape to go do something?  They both seem worried.  This 
would have to be Part 2 to their plan and it doesn't seem that way.  
Unless Snape was at the DE meeting without Dumbledore knowing and 
Snape doesn't want Harry to mention that. Or maybe Snape is surprised 
that Harry does know some of their names and Snape might be 
interested in knowing who they were.  The other reason I doubt he was 
there because supposedly JKR said the one who left forever was 
Snape.  I have never read that interview myself so I hesitate to 
always mention it.  

I am not so concerned about the time factor.  We are just assuming 
Snape would be walking or moving in the usual way.  Who is to say he 
can't do something else or there isn't some other way out of Hogwarts 
we don't know yet.  I also wonder if he would be making potions on 
such an important day.  Though he might not be walking around the 
hedges, I would think he would be where the action was in case of 
need. Unless there was a very important potion he had to make at the 
last minute.

I also don't think it would take anyone 15 minutes are so to find 
their way through the hedges. They could fly above the hedges on 
brooms.  Surely they are better prepared than just having to walk 
around the maze themselves.  They wouldn't be much help if someone 
was in serious trouble unless they could get to them quickly.

As far as communicating, there has to be ways they communicate with 
each other quickly.  That's a big castle and I can't imagine them 
just walking or running when an emergency arrives.  I'm sure we'll 
see that later in the books.  Oh, when will the next book ever come 
out!

Koinonia 



 




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Thu May 31 13:15:05 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:15:05 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is morality too simple....?  :^)
References: <9f3h58+lbop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02eb01c0e9d3$b539a8c0$9771023e@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 19846

 Craig wrote,
 > I think as humans we think a lot in binaries and tend to put good
> and evil on a sliding scale.  I think this leads to easy rhetoric
> and propaganda, but also an unduly immature view of motivation and a
> poor judgment on character.

<snip>

> Yes, there is a convenience in the shorthand of lumping Voldemort,
> Pettigrew, Quirrell, Lockhart, the Malfoys, Fudge, Crouch Jr., and
> even Snape under the rubric of evil, but it does a disservice to
> understanding the complexity of who they actually are.

Thanks for those thoughts Craig! I'd say that anyone with a dash of common
sense will have to agree that we don't experience a person's basic moral
character in terms of binary certainties. It doesn't take more than a little
charity to see good traits in a bad people--nor more than a little realism
to see bad ones in good people.

However, that leaves a second question open: is the above an epistemological
or an ontological problem? Is it that all of us *are,* fundamentally, mixed
bags--or merely that no one (ourselves included, perhaps) can perceive us
the way we really are (or really are becoming)? Are people morally
ambiguous? Or do they just look like it from the outside--or is that
ambiguity just a phase in a moral development which will finally place them
either in one camp or the other?


These questions get us into deep water, of course--and I've no intention of
snorkling in where angels fear to tread (water)! However, I think various
literary genres tend more readily toward one side than the other. A
whodunit--ala Agatha Christy--tends to divide humanity between good guys and
bad guys (although we may not be able to tell them apart until the last
page). A more psychological novel--a Hemingway, for instance--tends to leave
a lot more room for ambiguity. (I'm not saying there aren't exceptions!)


I think Jo's world seems (so far) to lean toward the worldview of the
whodunit. People line up either with our team or their team. We may have
trouble seeing whether they're good or bad (take Sirius), or they may change
polarities (take Quirrel), but in the end they manifest themselves either as
good or as bad.

We don't yet know which side various people will end up on. But I don't
expect there to be much ambiguity in the end. Pettigrew and Snape look like
obvious candidates for last minute switches or revelations--but when HP 7
reaches its dnouement, I think even they will have been herded either to
the sheep or the goats.


Speaking of which: Baaaaaa!


Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)

P.S. To be honest, I wish I didn't have that feeling, and I'd like Jo to
prove me wrong. Indeed: perhaps I have too little faith in Jo's aesthetic
vision. Any thoughts?
_______________________


"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu May 31 13:18:59 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 06:18:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Obliviation - Snape at 3rd task? at rebirthing? - Who knew about SB - CoS
In-Reply-To: <9f5b80+m1qf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010531131859.99961.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19847

> As I said, my guess is Snape =wasn't= at
> the graveyard.  But listies have pointed out that 
> since Voldemort doesn't identify every DE there, he
> could have been.  I do confess myself morbidly 
> intrigued by the thought of Snape being undercover 
> at this terrible scene, watching helplessly as Harry
> and all their hopes seem to be on the verge of 
> destruction.    

Although Voldemort does not identify all Death Eaters
present, he does a good job of identifying those who
are absent:

(Chapter 33: The Death Eaters)

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...Three
dead in my service.  One, too cowardly to return
[Karkaroff]...One, who I believe has left me
forever...he will be killed, of course [Snape]...and
one, who remains my most faith servant, and who has
already reentered my service." [Barty Crouch, Jr.]

If Snape were at the graveyard, he wouldn't be alive
at the end of the book.  It is clear that Voldemort
recognizes each person there, even if he does not
address each of them by name.  Unless Snape were using
Polyjuice Potion, there would be no chance of his
impersonating one of the other Death Eaters and
witnessing Harry's duel with Voldemort.


__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu May 31 13:24:32 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 06:24:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Obliviation - Snape at 3rd task? at rebirthing? - Who knew about SB - CoS
In-Reply-To: <9f5b80+m1qf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010531132432.12863.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19848

>I thought that Snape flinching was evidence that
>he was not at the DE scene - if he had been he would have known
> who they were and that Harry could identify them.  The flinching 
> might be because Snape had hoped that Malfoy wouldn't go back to 
> Voldemort -
> maybe he cares about Draco.  Or are you suggesting that he didn't
> want Harry to blurt what they both knew, or that he thought Harry
> was about to finger *him*?

I think Snape's starting at Malfoy's name is a red herring that JKR
has planted (mixed metaphors but you get the idea).  We're supposed
to think that it's Malfoy's name that Snape is reacting to but the
fact that Harry can name them for some reason.  But we'll all be
watching the Malfoy's all the closer now. 

__________________________________________________
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 31 13:58:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:58:27 -0000
Subject: Evil--Lewis and JKR
In-Reply-To: <9f4f74+47k0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f5im3+h02j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19849

Lisa wrote:

 > Now going back a little to the discussion about good vs. evil.  I 
> paid particular attention to an exchange between Rebecca and I think 
> Susan and Pippin about whether or not evil is bigger than good in 
> JKR, whether or not the Narnia books are formulaic, and whether or 
> not Aslan is the deus ex machina.
> 
> I think what set *my* bells off is when McGonagall says to 
Dumbledore 
> in the first chapter of PS/SS that Voldemort was only afraid of 
Albus 
> Dumbledore.  "You flatter me, my dear...Voldemort had powers I never 
> will."  "Only because you're too *noble* to use them," McGonagall 
> shoots back.  Well, wouldn't this imply that people who break the 
> rules are the ones with the real power?  That even the best among us 
> can't stand up to the potency of those who go outside the pale of 
> humanity?  But Dumbledore himself limits that idea in his several 
> talks with Harry ("if someone resists him again, and again, why he 
> may never come back to power"; and the famous "it's our choices that 
> make us who we are").  Not to mention the famous gleam.  And instead 
> of calling it pragmatic, I'd call it heroic, like the star dying in 
> WRINKLE IN TIME.

Yes, and in that sense it is quite Christian, that is, Christlike.  
The dying star definitely is (and L'Engle no doubt intended it to be 
so), and in a different way, Dumbledore's refusal to use the Dark Arts 
is also.

Evil has power that good will never have; torture and terrorism, for 
example, are undeniably powerful weapons.  Dumbledore cannot use them, 
not because he doesn't know how but because he is too good.

That doesn't mean that evil is ultimately more powerful, however.  
Good has power that evil does not.  "Hatred will never cease by 
hatred, but only by love" (The Dhammapada, a Theravada Buddhist text). 
 If Voldemort is to be truly overcome, it will have to be by those who 
refuse to use his own weapons.  Otherwise he will be crushed, but the 
evil he practices will continue to thrive.  One can't defeat the 
enemy with the enemy's means.  JKR is clearly not writing a novel of 
Gandhian nonviolence, but she does assert that some forms of violence 
cross the line, e.g. Aurors killing when there are less extreme 
measures at their disposal, and she has one of the heroes, Sirius, say 
that this can be just as bad as being a Death Eater--strong words (GF 
27).

Good people often have to sacrifice themselves to remain good; 
Christians (and Buddhists, too, in a different sense) believe that 
this sacrifice itself has a power that will overcome evil.  Thus Aslan 
on the Stone Table (not to mention Jesus going quietly to his 
crucifixion) . . . the Witch is defeated because she believes that 
killing Aslan will bring her victory.  What she doesn't understand is 
that the self-sacrifice of a willing victim will defeat the one who 
kills him.  That, at least, is the Christian belief, as I understand 
it.

> 
> And as for the Narnia books, I wouldn't call them formulaic either. 
 
> Nor would I consider Aslan the deus ex machina of the stories, or 
> even in particular of THE LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE.  The 
> stories may appear to be about the children, but they really *are* 
> about Aslan; and the main character of a story can't be deus ex 
> machina. 

Also, let's just step back and look at the big picture for a second.  
Is the Second Coming a deus ex machina?  That's a rather unflattering 
way to look at Christianity.  I don't share the Christian confidence 
that good will triumph over evil for all time,* though it is my hope 
and faith that "the arc of the universe bends toward justice" (MLK), 
but the appearance of Jesus/Aslan is a statement of faith, not a 
convenient plot device.

But back to HP.  Even if good triumphs over evil at the end of book 7, 
I have my doubts as to whether JKR will make it a final triumph, a la 
Lewis.  She isn't working on that scale, for one thing; she isn't 
trying to encompass a world, start to finish, as Lewis did.  She's 
just showing an eventful 20 years in the life of this world, or so it 
appears so far.  And then there's that dictum from Dumbledore, about 
good people struggling against evil whenever it arises.  That suggests 
a view of good and evil as a struggle that continues forever, without 
any end-times to deliver a final victor in the battle.  We'll see . . 
.

Amy Z

*perhaps not all Christians do either?  L'Engle is a Christian writer 
who doesn't pay much mind to the end-times.  She is less interested 
(in her fiction, at least) in whether good will ultimately triumph 
than in people taking a stand for it again and again against the odds, 
and against the principalities and powers.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 31 14:10:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:10:53 -0000
Subject: Moody's age
In-Reply-To: <9f50un+ul9r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f5jdd+7qam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19850

Kelley wrote:

>  Was it ever noted 
in 
> GoF how old Moody appeared to be?  There's just no way I can see him 
> in his thirties in this book... 

GF 13: "the aged ex-Auror" (that's Rita Skeeter talking, so take with 
a grain of salt"

"He's an old friend of Dumbledore's," which admittedly doesn't tell us 
much about his age, and he's retired.  Charlie says "I heard he's been 
getting really paranoid in his old age."  (GF 11)

He also has gray hair (GF 12).

JKR could still have toyed with the idea of making Davey Gudgeon the 
DADA prof. and only later decided that the prof. should be an old 
friend of Dumbledore's.

Just to nitpick:  Davey Gudgeon =could= be as much as 6 years older 
than Lupin.  All we know is that their time at school overlapped.  But 
he's definitely not an old man.

Amy Z




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Thu May 31 14:30:40 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:30:40 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil--Lewis and JKR
Message-ID: <50.167cabc4.2847af90@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19851

In a message dated 5/31/2001 10:14:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
aiz24 at hotmail.com writes:

<< Also, let's just step back and look at the big picture for a second.  
 Is the Second Coming a deus ex machina?  That's a rather unflattering 
 way to look at Christianity.>> yes, but it would be even more unflattering 
to consider Christianity a "plot!" "Deus ex machina" is usually a criticism 
for a literary piece of work whose ending seems to have been drawn out of the 
air by its author. And it doesn't necessary involve God, another diety or 
magical creature arriving to solve everything. Actually, the Second Coming 
wouldn't even be considered deus ex machina because it's already supported by 
the religion.    
 
>> But back to HP.  Even if good triumphs over evil at the end of book 7, 
 I have my doubts as to whether JKR will make it a final triumph, a la 
 Lewis.  >> I don't think so either. Consider what's written on the back of 
Dumbledore's card in PS/SS, that he was well known for the defeat of a Dark 
Wizard (whose name escapes me) in 1945. So, even if Voldemort is ultimately 
defeated, there will be someone out there more than willing to take his place.

jami



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu May 31 14:30:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:30:34 -0000
Subject: Snape at rebirthing?
In-Reply-To: <20010531131859.99961.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9f5kia+rmdm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19852

Barbara wrote:

> Although Voldemort does not identify all Death Eaters
> present, he does a good job of identifying those who
> are absent:
> <snip>
> If Snape were at the graveyard, he wouldn't be alive
> at the end of the book.  It is clear that Voldemort
> recognizes each person there, even if he does not
> address each of them by name.  Unless Snape were using
> Polyjuice Potion, there would be no chance of his
> impersonating one of the other Death Eaters and
> witnessing Harry's duel with Voldemort.

Good point.  Snape might not be the DE "who I believe has left me 
forever" (though again, if I had to put money on it I'd say he is), 
but if he is one of the others there, why all the hoopla about "my 
most faithful servant" and Voldemort's excitement at learning he has a 
man inside Hogwarts?  If Snape were still playing the double agent all 
these years, V would have thought he already had a DE at Hogwarts, 
namely Snape.

Personally, I think Snape's flinch may just be from his deep-rooted 
sense, going back to his DE days, that DEs must not be named.  And I 
think he's also flinching at the thought that Harry may name him (not 
as someone who was there, but as an associate--who knows what V might 
have said?).  Snape is prepared to come out of the closet as an ex-DE, 
and Fudge, Dumbledore, and presumably McGonagall already know, but 
Harry doesn't (so Snape thinks, anyway) and it's got to be hard to 
have this most nasty of secrets dragged out in the open.  Other 
possibilities abound . . . is it the mention of Malfoy that shakes 
him?  etc.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------------
 Bumper sticker I'd like to see:  My other car is a Firebolt
-------------------------------------------------------------




From millicentbell at yahoo.com  Thu May 31 15:01:41 2001
From: millicentbell at yahoo.com (millicent bell)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:01:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at rebirthing?
In-Reply-To: <9f5kia+rmdm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010531150141.66926.qmail@web14708.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19853


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Barbara wrote:
> 
> > Although Voldemort does not identify all Death
> Eaters
> > present, he does a good job of identifying those
> who
> > are absent:
> > <snip>
> > If Snape were at the graveyard, he wouldn't be
> alive
> > at the end of the book.  It is clear that
> Voldemort
> > recognizes each person there, even if he does not
> > address each of them by name.  Unless Snape were
> using
> > Polyjuice Potion, there would be no chance of his
> > impersonating one of the other Death Eaters and
> > witnessing Harry's duel with Voldemort.
> 
> Good point.  Snape might not be the DE "who I
> believe has left me 
> forever" (though again, if I had to put money on it
> I'd say he is), 
> but if he is one of the others there, why all the
> hoopla about "my 
> most faithful servant" and Voldemort's excitement at
> learning he has a 
> man inside Hogwarts?  If Snape were still playing
> the double agent all 
> these years, V would have thought he already had a
> DE at Hogwarts, 
> namely Snape.
> 
> Personally, I think Snape's flinch may just be from
> his deep-rooted 
> sense, going back to his DE days, that DEs must not
> be named.  And I 
> think he's also flinching at the thought that Harry
> may name him (not 
> as someone who was there, but as an associate--who
> knows what V might 
> have said?).  Snape is prepared to come out of the
> closet as an ex-DE, 
> and Fudge, Dumbledore, and presumably McGonagall
> already know, but 
> Harry doesn't (so Snape thinks, anyway) and it's got
> to be hard to 
> have this most nasty of secrets dragged out in the
> open.  Other 
> possibilities abound . . . is it the mention of
> Malfoy that shakes 
> him?  etc.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
Well I agree. My guess is that Snape wasn't among the
DE at the rebirthing. And he's the one who could have
left Voldemort forever, even though JKR wants us to
have doubts about that.
On the one hand, we could believe Snape flinched
because he was there with the DE and he's afraid Harry
could name him too. On the other hand, he might just
be surprised that Harry can name the death-eaters.
It's the same when Harry wants to see Dumbledore and
tell him he's seen Crouch in the Forest. It looks like
Snape wants to prevent Harry from seing Dumbledore,
and from finding out what Crouch has to say. But maybe
he's just fed up with Harry always straying in the
corridors.
Lisa.
>
-------------------------------------------------------------
>  Bumper sticker I'd like to see:  My other car is a
> Firebolt
>
-------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
> All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
> HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for
> everyone to sort through the messages they want to
> read and those they don't.
> 
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read
> OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
> join now! For more details, contact the Moderator
> Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
> 
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu May 31 15:13:41 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:13:41 -0400
Subject: Anyone in or near Dundee?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D018F9113@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 19854

from http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/ thanks to a link from
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org - 

WRITER JK Rowling has joined forces with world-famous architect Frank Gehry
to bring a cancer care centre to Tayside. **The Harry Potter author will be
in Dundee this weekend to raise funds for Maggie's Centre, a building which
Gehry has designed for free. Rowling will appear before 1,300 Harry Potter
fans from around Scotland to answer questions and read from her latest work,
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.** 

The event in the Caird Hall hopes to raise ?10,000 for the Maggie Cancer
Caring Centre Appeal. 

Is anyone in the dundee area planning to go to this? You might be able to
find more info at http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk - I managed to find this from
the site:
JK Rowling Brings Harry Potter to Dundee
 
Venue
 Caird Hall, City Square, Dundee
 
Dates
 Saturday 2nd June 2001
 
Time
 10.30am
 
Contact
 Thins Bookshop
 
Details
 In aid of Maggie Cancer Care Centre

Tickets available from Thins' Bookshop, Dundee



 



From cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com  Thu May 31 15:51:34 2001
From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com (cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:51:34 -0000
Subject: Aparating and Hogwarts
Message-ID: <9f5pa6+ur3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19855

I have a question/thought and I don't have the books at work with me 
to check. I know that it has been said many times in the books and on 
the list that you can not aparate into Hogwarts or out of Hogwarts, 
but can you aparate within it. Like from one place on the grounds to 
another? Is there anything saying you can't do this?

Christine




From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Thu May 31 16:08:10 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:08:10 -0000
Subject: Why Harry stay with the Dursley's
Message-ID: <9f5q9a+ucqu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19856

Someone wondered how the Weasley's knew where to find Harry.  I have 
a theory on this also ... 

It is quite possible that the Weasley's knew how and where to find 
Harry because Dumbledore allowed them to find Harry.  We all know, 
especially from the end of GoF, that Dumbledore trusts the Weasley's, 
so it would make sense that he would send them to "rescue" Harry from 
Privet Drive.




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu May 31 16:37:31 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:37:31 -0000
Subject: Aparating and Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <9f5pa6+ur3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f5s0b+drb4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19857

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cetoll-calafiore at y... wrote:
> I have a question/thought and I don't have the books at work with 
me 
> to check. I know that it has been said many times in the books and 
on 
> the list that you can not aparate into Hogwarts or out of Hogwarts, 
> but can you aparate within it. Like from one place on the grounds 
to 
> another? Is there anything saying you can't do this?
> 
> Christine

You can't Apparate on the Hogwarts grounds at all.

Unless you're a House-Elf, in which case you can just plain do 
whatever you want. Thankfully, they just want to do nice things like 
lay fires and cook eclairs.

So far.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
home of the Wizard's Atlas - check out the new Quidditch pictures!
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu May 31 16:47:58 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:47:58 -0000
Subject: The Dursley's and why Harry stays there...
In-Reply-To: <9f4cod+8cd6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f5sju+9911@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19858

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> > "M. Barnett" wrote:
> > 
> > > Here's my theory on why Harry always goes back to the Dursley's 
> over
> > > summer break ... Voldemort can't find him there.  I think Privet
> > > Drive, perhaps just Number 4, perhaps the whole area has been 
made
> > > unplottable.  
> 
> Here's what Voldy himself has to say, from Chap. 33 of GoF: "But how 
> to get at Harry Potter?  For he has been better protected than I 
> think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long 
> ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future.  Dumbledore 
> invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as 
> he is in his relations' care.  Not even I can touch him there."
> 
> So, strangely enough, the gangly Petunia and the corpulent Dudley 
> comprise a mighty fortress that can withstand the principalities and 
> powers of the Dark Lord. 
> 


The very name "Privet Drive" invokes a privacy wall, since privets are 
 used for barriers (I grew up in a house with a lawn enclosed by 
privets). Privets also had a mild toxin that makes any scratch from 
the plant very uncomfortable.

As for Harry's address, Sirius knew where the Dursley's lived because 
he was on his way to get a glimspe of Harry in the beginning of PoA. 
Unless, Sirius remembered the address being mentioned by James or 
Lily, I think it is generally known that Harry resides somewhere in 
Little Whinging. 

Milz




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu May 31 17:13:52 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:13:52 -0000
Subject: Evil--Lewis and JKR morality
In-Reply-To: <9f5im3+h02j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f5u4g+e7gi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19859

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Lisa wrote:
> 
>  > Now going back a little to the discussion about good vs. evil.  I 
> > paid particular attention to an exchange between Rebecca and I think 
> > Susan and Pippin about whether or not evil is bigger than good in 
> > JKR, whether or not the Narnia books are formulaic, and whether or 
> > not Aslan is the deus ex machina.
	
	Well, what you thought you heard is not what I think I said <g> I 
didn't want to disparage Lewis so strongly, and certainly intend no 
disparagement toward his faith.  As Rebecca says,  JKR is telling a 
different kind of story. Puddleglum (my favorite Narnian) says he would 
fight in Aslan's army even if there were no Aslan to be the head of it.  
That, I think, is the story that JKR is telling, and I would be 
disappointed if she veered away from that and introduced an allegorical 
character like Aslan, or a prophecy  that everyone is supposed to 
believe in and draw comfort from. 
	 It seems to be very important to Dumbledore that people *not* 
expect Harry, or anyone else, to save them. That seems to be part of 
the reason that Harry is left with Muggles rather than with a wizarding 
family...so that he won't grow up with an inflated idea of his own 
importance.

> > I think what set *my* bells off is when McGonagall says to 
> Dumbledore  in the first chapter of PS/SS that Voldemort was only afraid of  Albus  Dumbledore.  "You flatter me, my dear...Voldemort had powers I never will."  "Only because you're too *noble* to use them," McGonagall shoots back.  Well, wouldn't this imply that people who break the rules are the ones with the real power? 
	
	What it implies to me is that Dumbledore is too *humble* to use 
the powers that Voldemort has.  He doesn't use his powers to force 
other people to do what *he* thinks is right or punish them for not 
agreeing with him. 
	There's also a respect for human dignity in Dumbledore and JKR 
that has no desire to see others humiliated even if they are evil. I 
think some of Rowling's critics are like Filch, they want to see some *
punishment* (emphasis Rowling's). I think the bouncing ferret incident 
and the ton-tongue toffee episode show us what Rowling thinks of that 
idea. It may be satisfying to watch the bad guys humiliated, but it 
will only make things harder in the end.
	I definitely agree with what Amy Z said about the power of Love. 
As an individual, Voldemort has more power than any other wizard, but 
because he cannot love, his enemies can  and will unite to wield a 
power he can never use or understand.
	
	As to Mike's post on the moral nature of mankind...by all means 
let's stay out of the heavy water. I have to remind myself at least 
once a day that nobody made me judge of all the earth <g>...ah, but 
that's why we have fiction.
	I also agree with Mike that it would be aesthetically unsatisfying 
to have a totally black/white resolution to the story. But I don't 
think we are going there.
	 I would say that while I am sure Voldemort's fall will be so low 
that none can foresee his arising again, I can see Draco Malfoy not 
quite getting his just desserts, but slipping through the net as his 
father once did, surviving to donate a share of his derived-from-
exploited- House-elves-if-not-positively ill-gotten gains to worthy 
causes,  sitting on the boards of St. Mungo's and Hogwarts, and 
occasionally using his influence to settle a personal score or two.

Pippin
	





From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Thu May 31 18:27:29 2001
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:27:29 -0000
Subject: Why Harry stay with the Dursley's
In-Reply-To: <9f5q9a+ucqu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f62eh+65bh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19860

M. Barnett wrote:
"Someone wondered how the Weasley's knew where to find Harry.  I have 
a theory on this also ... 

"It is quite possible that the Weasley's knew how and where to find 
Harry because Dumbledore allowed them to find Harry.  We all know, 
especially from the end of GoF, that Dumbledore trusts the Weasley's, 
so it would make sense that he would send them to "rescue" Harry from 
Privet Drive."

--Ah...no. Maybe I'm confused, but I'm going to assume you're talking 
about CoS first and foremost. I don't understand why you'd think that 
Dumbledore sent them on in an illegal enchanted car to steal him 
apparently without permission. Though with Dumbledore I suppose it 
*is* possible. Hmmm...

Why is it that people assume that no one know where Harry stays in 
the summer months. The Weasleys obviously know though since Harry 
told them, and the same for Hermione, maybe not the exact location at 
first. Voldy knows too.

It might not have been in the Daily Prophet with a map when Dumbly 
first put Harry on the doorstep, but I see no reason to think that 
people couldn't find out if they wished to do so. I also see the 
flipside which that Harry's home could have been swamped with 
grateful wizards all trying to get a look at "The-Boy-Who-Lived" in 
his infancy.

Hmmm

Scott




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu May 31 20:01:53 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:01:53 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] By The Time She Gets Out "Phoenix" (filk)
Message-ID: <F65kmRoFKefiWiDR9r100019b58@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19861

Caius wrote:

>>By the time it gets to Borders, I'll be queuing
>I'll stand in line all evening or even past dawn
>I'll get hysterical if they should sell out
>I'll be off the wall that's all
>

LOL!  This fan is hysterical already because Book 5 will not be here until 
2002.  I can't believe that it's been only a YEAR since GoF came out.  My 
copy looks as if it's been through VW2 already... (mutters about purchasing 
another GoF while she's in England this summer)...

Great filk as always!

--Ebony (whose first HP read was CoS)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From andromache815 at hotmail.com  Thu May 31 20:59:16 2001
From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:59:16 -1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Obliviation - Snape at 3rd task? at rebirthing? - Dursleys
References: <9f5b80+m1qf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE28ednHM3SOlbpH71y0000509c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19862

Amy: So you wouldn't object to someone reaching in and wiping out whichever 
ones of your memories =he= found inconvenient?  

 
Eep! Never thought of that...I forgot that's what Lockhart does, that is, erasing good memories and important memories.

Koinonia: The other reason I doubt he was
there because supposedly JKR said the one who left forever was
Snape.  
 
 
This is the obvious reason it can be assumed he wasn't there. I always thought the DE that left Voldy forever was Snape. What makes anyone think differently?
 
Koinonia: I also wonder if he would be making potions on
such an important day.  Though he might not be walking around the
hedges, I would think he would be where the action was in case of
need. Unless there was a very important potion he had to make at the
last minute. 


Agreed. This is what I have always thought, thus my theory assuming Snape was watching the tournament, that is, the theory on why I thought he didn't go after Harry. Someone had asked why Snape didn't do anything.

Koinonia: Oh, when will the next book ever come
out! 


I think we all feel your pain...I'm suffering from withdrawal and am quite impatient. I hear it won't be out till early next year. February or March, was it?

M. wrote: It is quite possible that the Weasley's knew how and where to find
Harry because Dumbledore allowed them to find Harry.  We all know,
especially from the end of GoF, that Dumbledore trusts the Weasley's,
so it would make sense that he would send them to "rescue" Harry from
Privet Drive. 


I'm not sure about this. If Dumbledore wants Harry to be safe, why would he allow him to be taken somewhere quite risky?

Scott: Why is it that people assume that no one know where Harry stays in
the summer months. The Weasleys obviously know though since Harry
told them, and the same for Hermione, maybe not the exact location at
first. Voldy knows too.

Voldy knows, but can't harm him. I think it's the only place he's completely safe. Apparently, Voldy can attack Hogwarts.

A thought occurs to me. Vernon, Petunia, and Dudley are Harry's only blood family. This probably means James was an only child. But who were James' parents? I doubt it matters in the big scheme of things, but we never hear of them. Are we to assume that both James and Lily's parents have died or something?
 
Scott: It might not have been in the Daily Prophet with a map when Dumbly
first put Harry on the doorstep, but I see no reason to think that
people couldn't find out if they wished to do so. I also see the
flipside which that Harry's home could have been swamped with
grateful wizards all trying to get a look at "The-Boy-Who-Lived" in
his infancy. 


I get the impression wizards try to avoid Muggles as much as possible, so I doubt that even if they knew where Harry was, they'd go look him up.

Vicky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu May 31 21:02:34 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:02:34 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at rebirthing?
In-Reply-To: <9f5kia+rmdm@eGroups.com>
References: <20010531131859.99961.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531135806.03437260@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19863

At 02:30 PM 5/31/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Other possibilities abound . . . is it the mention of Malfoy that shakes
>him?  etc.

I think this is it... I think Snape has been nurturing hopes that he
can keep Draco on the side of light, and Poppy Malfoy showing
up at the big DE bash has dashed his hopes.  BTW, in spite
of the lip service he gives Snape about recommending him
for headmaster in _CoS_, I don't think Draco harbors any
particular liking for Severus...  The Malfoys are just a
family of slick operators.



                         -- Dave




From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com  Thu May 31 22:01:00 2001
From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:01:00 -0000
Subject: Snape at rebirthing?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531135806.03437260@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9f6eus+n174@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19864

Is it me, though, or is there hope for Draco yet?  I mean, at 14, 
he's a prat, and we know this.  But a lot can change with a few 
years.  There has to be hope for him yet.  I can't see him going 
totally horrific.  It seems that JKR tries to have there be a message 
about change and the nature of evil...is it possible that Draco might 
turn out to be better than that from which he comes?

Hi, by the way, I'm Emma.  I'm new.  Please don't eat me.  *s*

~Emma


Dave mused: 

> I think this is it... I think Snape has been nurturing hopes that he
> can keep Draco on the side of light, and Poppy Malfoy showing
> up at the big DE bash has dashed his hopes.  BTW, in spite
> of the lip service he gives Snape about recommending him
> for headmaster in _CoS_, I don't think Draco harbors any
> particular liking for Severus...  The Malfoys are just a
> family of slick operators.





From devika261 at aol.com  Thu May 31 22:33:46 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:33:46 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Obliviation - Snape at 3rd task? at rebirthing? -CoS
Message-ID: <63.16cc6bba.284820ca@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19865

In a message dated 5/31/01 9:05:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
koinonia02 at yahoo.com writes:


> The other reason I doubt he was 
> there because supposedly JKR said the one who left forever was 
> Snape.  I have never read that interview myself so I hesitate to 
> always mention it.  
> 

Does anyone know which interview that was and where I can find it?  
Personally, I thought the DE who had left forever was Snape, but I hate to 
assume things with these books.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
Devika :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com  Thu May 31 22:42:16 2001
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:42:16 -0000
Subject: Evil and JKR morality
In-Reply-To: <9f5u4g+e7gi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f6hc8+4pb3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19866

Pippin and Amy commented on:
 I think what set *my* bells off is when McGonagall says to 
> > Dumbledore  in the first chapter of PS/SS that Voldemort was only 
afraid of  Albus  Dumbledore.  "You flatter me, my dear...Voldemort 
had powers I never will."  "Only because you're too *noble* to use 
them," McGonagall shoots back.  Well, wouldn't this imply that people 
who break the rules are the ones with the real power? 


I agree with the drift of what Amy and Pippin say - McGonagall thinks 
that you should stay good ('noble') even if your'e losing.  Although 
it hasn't become explicit, I think Dumbledore (and JKR) believe that 
staying noble is also a better *strategy* for dealing with evil - it 
actually wins; and McGonagall doesn't have that degree of faith: 
witness her fear of saying the name

David





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu May 31 23:05:23 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:05:23 -0000
Subject: Harry's Safety Zones (was Obliviation/Snape & 3rd Task- Dursleys)
In-Reply-To: <OE28ednHM3SOlbpH71y0000509c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f6inj+5f43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19867

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" <andromache815 at h...> wrote:

> > M. wrote: It is quite possible that the Weasley's knew how and 
where to find
> Harry because Dumbledore allowed them to find Harry.  We all know,
> especially from the end of GoF, that Dumbledore trusts the 
Weasley's,
> so it would make sense that he would send them to "rescue" Harry 
from
> Privet Drive. 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about this. If Dumbledore wants Harry to be safe, why 
would he allow him to be taken somewhere quite risky?

I assume that Dumbledore's OK with having Harry stay at the Weasley's 
*after* he's spent some time with the Dursleys.  IMO, having Harry 
stay with his relatives gives him protection that lasts until he's at 
Hogwarts. 
> 
> Scott: Why is it that people assume that no one know where Harry 
stays in
> the summer months. The Weasleys obviously know though since Harry
> told them, and the same for Hermione, maybe not the exact location 
at
> first. Voldy knows too.
> 
> Voldy knows, but can't harm him. I think it's the only place he's 
completely safe. Apparently, Voldy can attack Hogwarts.

Sirius says in GoF several times that Harry is safe at Hogwarts under 
Dumbledore's protection. 
> 
> A thought occurs to me. Vernon, Petunia, and Dudley are Harry's 
only blood family. This probably means James was an only child. But 
who were James' parents? I doubt it matters in the big scheme of 
things, but we never hear of them. Are we to assume that both James 
and Lily's parents have died or something?

I think so.
>  
> Scott: It might not have been in the Daily Prophet with a map when 
Dumbly
> first put Harry on the doorstep, but I see no reason to think that
> people couldn't find out if they wished to do so. I also see the
> flipside which that Harry's home could have been swamped with
> grateful wizards all trying to get a look at "The-Boy-Who-Lived" in
> his infancy. 
> 
> 
> I get the impression wizards try to avoid Muggles as much as 
possible, so I doubt that even if they knew where Harry was, they'd 
go look him up.  

I think this was on Dumbledore's mind when he left Harry at the 
Dursleys.  He say to McGonagall: "It would be enough to turn any 
boy's head.  Famous before he can walk and talk! Famous for something 
he won't even remember! Can you see how much better off he'll be, 
growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?" (p. 15, 
SS).  I know he's talking about Harry here, but I think the opposite 
could be true as well:  growing up away from the prying eyes of the 
wizarding world is a good thing, in Harry's case. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker
> 
> Vicky
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu May 31 23:20:13 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:20:13 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #4 Results
Message-ID: <9f6jjd+18gc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19868

This week's contest was to identify who spoke the various Famous Last 
Lines submitted by our resident genius, CMC.  (How about that 
Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration filk!!!!) 

No one identified all 42 lines correctly, however Susan Hall and 
Dianne Singson each got 41 right.  [You will all be glad to hear that 
I have checked with the staff at the Flying Ford Clinic for Severe 
Harry Potter Obsession, and the doctors say both Susan and Dianne are 
doing "as well as can be expected."]

Several other people got 37 or more lines correct.  They are Devika, 
Elena, wren and Amy Z, all of whom might want to consider checking 
into the Flying Ford Clinic as well.  Thanks to all the participants, 
and stay tuned for the next contest!

Here are the answers, along with some comments from the participants:

"Just you and me, Harry Potter ... you and me..."  ? Tom Riddle, CoS, 
Chapter 17

"Take my body back to my parents
" ? Cedric Diggory, GoF, Chapter 34

"He'll lend you one." ? Gilderoy Lockhart, CoS, Chapter 18

"See you, Harry" ? Ron Weasley, GoF, Chapter 37

"He is mine!" ? Voldemort, GoF, Chapter 34
[Susan Hall noted that: "he" is Harry, again. Note Voldemort's  
typical evil overlord rashness when confronted with arch rival. 
"First one to kill him gets 200 bonus points and a free excuse 
voucher for the next 20 applications of the Cruciatus curse" would 
have been more prudent.  As he doubtless reflected a few minutes 
later.]

"Thanks for the socks, Harry Potter!" ? Dobby, GoF, Chapter 28

"
tell him what Peeves was up to." ? Filch, GoF, Chapter 25

"You're going to have to fight the Cruciatus Curse!" ? Neville 
Longbottom, GoF, Chapter 21

"We will return, if you please, to history, to solid, believable, 
verifiable fact!" ? Prof. Binns, CoS, Chapter 9 

"They're supposed to be really hard to catch!" ? Lavender Brown, GoF, 
Chapter 24

"There should have been a presentation ceremony, but under the 
circumstances
." ? Cornelius Fudge, GoF, Chapter 36
[Susan Hall noted that: For once one has to agree; a presentation 
ceremony would have been tacky.  And pretty difficult to arrange 
given that, in addition to the murder of the joint winner, one of the 
judges has also been murdered and another two have fled the country.]

"I am." ? Snape, GoF, Chapter 36

"Severus Snape is a Death Eater!" ? Karkaroff, GoF, Chapter 30

"Keep in touch, Harry" ? Molly Weasley, GoF, Chapter 37

"Harry," ? Fred Weasley, GoF, Chapter 37

"Well, second ? Diggory was the f-"  - Draco Malfoy, GoF, Chapter 37
[Susan Hall noted that: given that he is about to confront a 
Triwizard Champion who has come off best in direct confrontation with 
Voldemort on four previous occasions one has to wonder whether Lucius 
Malfoy had just sent his son  a Misplaced Optimism in the 
Invincibility of Our Dark Master Charm by express owl.]

"Remember Cedric Diggory" ? Dumbledore, GoF, Chapter 37

"Cedric Diggory" ? Cho Chang, GoF, Chapter 22
[Note from Joywitch:  This one was VERY hard; only Dianne and Susan 
managed to find it.  Many people noticed that these are the last 
words of the entire school, at the end of the year dinner, but we 
were looking for the last words of *individual* characters.]

"Bye, Harry" ? Hermione, GoF, Chapter 37

"Very ? very well," ? Madam Pomfrey, GoF, Chapter 36

"He can still be gamekeeper, can't he?" ? Parvati Patil, GoF, Chapter 
24

"But I must do what I can, you do understand, don't you?" ? Sirius 
Black, GoF, Chapter 36

"Goodbye, then." Vernon Dudley, GoF, Chapter 4

"Leave it to me," Bill Weasley, GoF, Chapter 36
[Susan Hall noted that: "it" being breaking the news to his father 
that the Minister of Magic is a spineless appeaser with the ability 
to face facts of an ostrich in denial.  Somehow one suspects Arthur 
Weasley will not find this news surprising.]

"No," ? Dudley Dursley, PoA, Chapter 2
[Note from Joywitch:  This one was also very hard, and I can't 
imagine how Dianne actually found it.  No one else did.]

"
.not that it needs it
.." ? Rita Skeeter, GoF, Chapter 24

"Headmaster, there is no need to see me to the gate, I can manage
." 
?  Remus Lupin, PoA, Chapter 22

"You fight him, boy
" ? Frank Bryce, GoF, Chapter 34

No my Lord
.never, my Lord" ? Wormtail, GoF, Chapter 33

"Buy Ron some different robes and say they're from you." ? Harry 
Potter, GoF, Chapter 37

"...I don't like them much, they always chase me when I get too 
close." ? Myrtle, GoF, Chapter 26

"AARGH!" ? Quirrell, SS, Chapter 17

"These deaths were not the random work of a lunatic!" ? Minerva 
McGonagall, GoF Chapter 36

"I was jokin' ? jokin'!" ? Rubeus Hagrid, GoF, Chapter 37

"I'd better hurry ? you have a good term, boys!" ? Arthur Weasley, 
GoF, Chapter 11
[Elena noted that this is actually Arthur Weasley's SECOND to last 
line.  He subsequently says, "Molly, are you going to be all right 
taking the kids to King's Cross?"]

"Take them away, and may they rot there!" ? Barty Crouch, Sr., GoF, 
Chapter 30

"Three ? two ? one" ? Ludo Bagman, GoF, Chapter 31

"If you leave now, you may lose the opportunity to see further than 
you have ever-" ? Professor Trelawney, GoF, Chapter 29

"I still can't work out how you two got the best-looking girls this 
year." Dean Thomas, GoF, Chapter 23

"He is returned to power and I will be honored by him beyond the 
dreams of wizards." ? Barty Crouch, Jr., GoF, Chapter 35

"I'm about to become the youngest ever Minister of Magic, I am." ? 
Stan Shunpike, GoF, Chapter 9

"...how you managed to return to us...." ? Lucius Malfoy, GoF, 
Chapter 33




From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu May 31 23:52:52 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:52:52 -0000
Subject: Evil--Lewis and JKR morality
In-Reply-To: <9f5u4g+e7gi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9f6lgk+glhh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 19869

Pippin wrote:
> 	
> 	Well, what you thought you heard is not what I think I said 
<g> I 
> didn't want to disparage Lewis so strongly, and certainly intend no 
> disparagement toward his faith.  

Well, this is the just rebuke I get for being too lazy to cut and 
paste!  I will shut my ears in the oven door for this.  <g>

I think I just heard the words "deus ex machina" and "Aslan" and 
regardless of the meaning found a burr in my coat.  So of course I 
had to sit down and disentangle it, even if I picked it up all by 
myself...  Now sitting fully-groomed on my stone wall, I twitch my 
tail and blink in satisfaction at the very fine prose this whole 
thread (from Ebony's post on) has generated.  Cheers.

Lisa I.