TMR's training; relative ages; Hagrid History

[Hillman, Lee]

No: HPFGUIDX 18702

> Message: 14
>    Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:04:12 +1000
>    From: "Elizabeth C" <nizbet_noni at hotmail.com>
> Subject: who taught Voldemort?
> 
> I'm sitting here with a friend, and she just brought up a 
> point I hadn't 
> thought about before: Who taught Voldemort the Dark Arts?? I 
> mean, I think 
> he was self-taught a lot of the later stuff, but he needed 
> someone to ground 
> him in the basics. And obviously it couldn't have been his parents.
> Any thoughts??

Many. Beginning with the idea that over the years, subjects have been taught
very differently. Under Dippet's leadership, Defense Against the Dark Arts
may have involved more actual Dark Arts. Or possibly there have been other
classes which provided more practical training in these areas, which
Dumbledore has since discontinued. However, I am of the opinion that for the
most part, Tom Riddle was fascinated by dark arts and read all he could
about them from the first day of his first year.

After he left (and killed his father's family), of course, it's mentioned
that he traveled through Europe a great deal, and that when he returned he
was barely recognizable. I take the 50 years to be an "approximate" figure.
I believe the Chamber of Secrets was opened slightly more than 50 years
before HP finds it; that is, in 1941 or '42 (possibly even earlier),
allowing Tom to finish up school and find Grindelwald before Dumbledore
defeated him in 1945. After Grindy's demise, presumably, Tom went on a
quest.... Okay, a dark quest, but still a quest. 


Malfoy, Fudge, Weasleys, Hagrid:

Jen wrote:
> >  I was wondering can anyone place Fudge in the Weasley/Malfoy 
> > timeline. I get the feeling that he wasn't in the same year as 
> Arthur 
> > and Lucius (assuming that they were in the same year) as he doesn't 
> > seem to realise they dislike one another.
> >  For some reason I have the gut feeling that Fudge is younger than 
> > the other two but have no facts to back me up.
> >  Does anyone have any ideas?
> > 
> >  Jen

Others have talked at length about the relative ages of Lucius Malfoy and
Arthur and Molly Weasley. Somewhere I have a long and involved message about
why, though there is no direct evidence, there is material supporting the
conclusion that they are at least 10 years, probably more, older than the
Marauder generation. If y'all are really interested, perhaps I'll dig up my
LM character summary (my own, not published here).

Some of the logic applied to LM and A&MW also applies to Fudge. One point
about LM and AW is the amount of respect (in different circles) each
commands, and I don't think it's just because of money or integrity,
respectively, and family names in both cases. I think it also has to do with
age and experience.

In a society with a high average longevity, it is unlikely that very young
wizards and witches will be given a large amount of credence. Consider how
unlikely it is for Muggle adults who are under 25 to be afforded high levels
of respect or experience and/or assumed to be responsible and mature. This
is not a value judgment; I'm merely pointing out that in our society, where
average life span is about half that of wizards, it's the frequent case that
many younger people are discounted on the basis of their age up until their
mid-20's or even, depending on profession, early 30's. How much older must
wizards and witches be to be considered mature and experienced? 

It seems unlikely to me that any wizard could rise to the rank of MoM if he
were younger than a LM or an AW, particularly someone as oblivious and
blinded as Fudge. Since I agree that he is not familiar with their rivalry
(unless of course he was putting on a show for the foreign guests, which is
possible), then I would wager that he is older. Admittedly, he hadn't
advanced far--though we don't know exactly how high-ranking a Junior
Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes is--but when Sirius tells
us of his rise to MoM in GoF, it's clear that he had risen enough in the
next couple years to be considered a rival (if a distant second) to Barty
Crouch. 

On the other hand, he may well have been considered, despite his youth,
because other Ministry and related lobbyists felt they could manipulate him
easily..... No, I'll stick with the older, but still gullible, theory. They
can hoodwink him whether or not he's a spring chicken. Heck, they _do_ still
hoodwink him.


Bugg mentioned this about Hagrid and Arthur & Molly Weasley: 
> Clarifications 
> Hagrid was 13 when the chamber was first opened. 
> He would be in his sixties now. 
> Arthur and Molly were at Hogwarts before Hagrid became 
> the groundskeeper. I believe she mentioned the old 
> groundskeeper in GoF.  
> 

Actually, a small nit to pick here: Molly mentioned the caretaker, Apollyon
Pringle. I believe this gentleman occupies the same position as Argus Filch,
not Hagrid. Hagrid was already there, I think. Otherwise, Molly would have
had Ginny when she was between 50 and 60 years old! Even with increased
longevity, I doubt that child bearing years extend that far (I hope not!).
Though I suppose it's technically possible, if 70 is considered the
equivalent of middle-aged (i.e. 40's). Still, the way Hagrid addresses them
in CoS suggests they knew him as a groundskeeper when they were in school.

> Questions 
> Did Hagrid go to Azkaban when expelled from Hogwarts? 

At first, I thought it was implied that he did. There's a strong subtext in
the scene in Chamber of Secrets to suggest that he's been there before.
However, when he speaks about Azkaban in PoA, neither he nor Rowling make
any reference to a previous stint. He mentions fixating on all the horrible
things, such as his expulsion, his father's death, etc., but not having been
there before. It seems odd he wouldn't mention a previous sentence among
those unhappy memories.

> How long was Hagrid in Azkaban? 

If the stay in CoS was the only one, than it was very brief (month? weeks?).
Hmm. After considering the options, I believe Dumbledore (whom I think had
his doubts about Hagrid really being the culprit) would have petitioned
strenuously to keep a 13 year old out of prison.


> How long between getting expelled and working at Hogwarts? 

This is an interesting question. It all depends on how much influence
Dumbledore could exert with Dippet. According to Hagrid, though, one gets
the impression that Dumbledore didn't buy Tom's accusation and made sure the
consequences of Hagrid's expulsion were minimal. Perhaps he apprenticed to
the gamekeeper who was at the school until that person retired or died, and
then took over the job? I have a feeling from the way Hagrid talks, though,
that he's never been far from Hogwarts since he began going to school there.

> Was Dumbledore Headmaster for Arthur and Molly? 

Almost impossible. Dumbledore became headmaster the year the Marauders and
Snape began at Hogwarts. Lupin alludes to the fact that it was only because
Dumbledore had been promoted that he was allowed to attend the school. The
real question is, was Dippet their Headmaster, or was there another
headmaster between him and Albus?

We simply don't have enough information in canon to answer that one. There
is, however, an implication that Lucius was directly acquainted with more
than one Headmaster, including Dumbledore, considering what Draco says in
CoS about his father thinking Dumbledore the worst Headmaster the school's
ever had. It's possible that Lucius forms this opinion without any
experience other than Dumbledore, and given historical information to which
he had access as a school governor, but unlikely. I believe Lucius either
completed his schooling well before Dumbledore became headmaster (though he
was still Transfiguration teacher), or was present for a year or two of the
transition (depending on how close in ages LM is with the Marauders). I
think it makes a better story if he went to school under a completely
different regime, with a different style and a different emphasis on
teaching methods (as above, with Dippet/Riddle relations), and his
objections to Dumbledore stem from his interaction with him as a colleague,
not an authority figure.

By extension, if one accepts the theory (expounded by others here) that LM
and AW share an old, school-boy-like rivalry, then AW and MW would have also
gone to school under the same Headmaster (or Headmasters) as LM.

Gosh, I hope that all makes sense.


Gwendolyn Grace