[HPforGrownups] Re: Average Harry?

Wed May 16 22:56:51 UTC 2001

No: HPFGUIDX 18862

Hi, list--I'm extremely tired, but must have a go at this...

Amy wrote:
>Wow.  Naama's post was so poetic that I feel like I'm kind of
>shuffling in after the grand finale with my oh-so-ordinary
>observations, but for what they're worth, here they are.

I liked Naama's observations as well!  Only reason I didn't respond is 
because it would have been a "me too" post, and the hairnet and bunny 
slipper-wearing Mod Squad is scary.  So scary, in fact, that I post a 
fraction as much as I did before... for which I am sure everyone is 
grateful.  ;-)

However, much as I adore her, Amy and I are on opposite sides of the fence 
on this issue.  Had to respond.  <vbg>

I wrote:
>
> >If he's Joe Public, they'll kill him.  If he's not, they'll think
> >twice before they try.
>Amy:
>I think they'll think twice anyway, because they won't be sure.  Why
>did Tom Riddle sic a basilisk on him, sit and watch him die of poison,
>etc. before getting desperate and raising his wand?  Why didn't he
>just kill him with the wand immediately?  I think he's afraid of him.

This supports my position, I think.  Why would Riddle be afraid of an 
average wizard?

Amy wrote:
>  He knows from Ginny that his adult self failed to kill Harry, and he
>doesn't fully understand why (I know Harry tells him it's because of
>his mother's love, but if I were TR I still wouldn't be entirely
>sure).  The Death Eaters know that Voldemort has twice tried to kill
>Harry and very weird, dangerous things have happened to V as a result.
>  Add Harry's having killed him, and how many of them are going to take
>the risk that he's mortal?

So what you're saying is that the perception that There's Something Special 
About Harry will protect him?  I don't think all the DE-types are stupid and 
bumbling... he had better have more than just the perception.  They'd send 
their expendables just to try, I think.

>For my part, I don't for a moment think that Harry can't be hurt by
>Voldemort.  <snip>

I totally agree with this, and even tried to start a thread on it some time 
back (January?)... "how could Voldemort go about killing Harry?"  There were 
no takers.  I suppose no one wanted to talk about Harry head.

>To some extent, Voldemort is
>right-Harry has escaped him through luck.  But not only luck:  also
>through Lily's sacrifice and, in later encounters, Harry's own
>strength of character (cf our discussion on why Harry's wand forced
>Voldemort's to regurgitate its spells and not the other way around).
>It's =possible= that from his birth there has been something about
>Harry that makes it inherently impossible for Voldemort to kill him,
>but I doubt it.

I don't believe in luck, but for the purpose of the discussion, let's just 
say that luck, the Sacrifice, and strength of character all played a role in 
Harry's protection in the past and continuing protection.  This threefold 
combination still makes him special... how many other kids fall into this 
category?

>Harry isn't necessarily average; he's particularly talented in various 
>ways, as you point out (though not necessarily more talented than lots of 
>other wizards),

Canon seems to imply otherwise.  If this is the case, why can't Hermione 
conjure a Patronus?  Why can't the entire fourth year DADA class resist 
Imperius?

>The question is in what way he is unique.  To use Naama's distinction, is 
>he unique in substance or is he just a boy who, like many ordinary
>people, can be quite extraordinary if he fulfills his potential?  How
>JKR handles this will have a big impact on whether HP stays one of my
>all-time favorites or ends up being disappointing.

Me too!  But on the opposite side of the coin.  ;-)  You have most of the 
regulars on list on your side, though, so I don't doubt that you guys will 
prevail.

>  If Harry is triumphant it will be not because he was destined to be
>so ("the stars have been read wrongly before now," after all) but
>because of what he chose to make of his considerable talents.

Mixing theories?  The fact that Harry just might be gifted has very little 
to do with the stars.  ;-)

>But I see the hands waving and the frustrated voices shouting:  "Then
>why did Voldemort want to kill him?!"  There's no denying that there
>was something about the 15-month-old Harry that made him a threat to
>Voldemort, or at least Voldemort thought so.  I like Kimberly's
>thought best (way back at message 9358) about how prophecy and
>uniqueness and choice can all be factors.  Even if there proves to
>have been a prophecy that this boy would defeat Voldemort and the
>prophecy comes true, it doesn't mean that  that or any other prophecy
>=had= to come true in the HP universe.  We are not puppets acting out
>a drama whose end has already been written; our choices are real and
>make a difference.

After reading this, I finally understood why I'm in the less popular camp.  
It goes beyond Harry Potter... it's a way of seeing life, I think.

My personal worldview is that everything that happens, everything that ever 
is, was, or will be is by intelligent design.  I also believe that the end 
is already known, but also believe in free will... the designer's 
foreknowledge of what happens in the last chapter does not negate the freely 
made choices of the individual.

I'm very interested in the Great Man theory of history, and love reading 
alternate histories (Turtledove, Shwartz, Card).

I believe that one person can change the world for the better or the worse.

>I love what The Phantom Tollbooth has to say about
>this.  After Milo succeeds in his quest, Azaz and the Mathemagician
>let him in on the secret they'd only hinted at before:  that his quest
>was impossible.  So much for prophecies (but if they'd told him it was
>impossible before, methinks the prophecy would have come true).  I
>think Dumbledore would take a similar approach.  He believes that
>people's decisions, not to mention blind chance, can overrule what
>would seem to be fate.

This reminds me of the Matrix.  (Then again, so much does.)  The Oracle told 
Neo that he was not the One.  Later events seemed to prove the Oracle wrong. 
  Yet as another character told Neo, "She told you what you needed to hear." 
  Prophets can be interesting folks.

I strongly believe in certain kinds of prophecies in real life.  I've seen 
too much to not believe.  I also love the role of prophecy in our 
folklore... it's something that draws me to a story instantly, because in it 
I see echoes of the stories that are most important to me.

I wonder what role prophecy will play in future books.  There will be a 
role, if only a comic one.  JKR seems to poke fun of it through the guise of 
Trelawney.  Yet... there are prophecies, and then there are *prophecies*.  I 
hope she doesn't intend to toss the baby out with the bathwater.  As a 
novice storyteller, I recognize the potential there.  ;-)

>Another theme that is just hinted at in the books so far, but that
>supports the idea that Harry is talented-brave-strong-etc. but not
>superhuman, is that Voldemort is not the same thing as Evil Itself.
>Defeating him will not end evil for all time.  He is just the latest,
>and one of the most powerful, in a history of dark magic that will
>always have to be fought.  Why then should Harry be Unique in All the
>History of Wizardry?  He may well be uniquely suited to fight
>Voldemort-they mirror one another-but other dark wizards will arise
>and will have to be fought by other people, bringing the same
>strengths Harry has brought to this struggle:  courage, integrity,
>perseverance (the positive side of his stubbornness), a sound
>conscience, and basic human kindness.

We-e-ll... (sighs and laughs) no one in the Special!Harry camp thinks that 
the poor kid's the Second Coming, now.  LOL!  My previous post implied that 
evil is not going to end with Voldemort.  That's why I talked about all the 
Dark Wizards after and their motives for revenge in the first place.

Again, I suppose this just taps into what I believe about good and evil.  
"When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit will lift up a Standard 
against him."  Evil is always around, but once in a while Evil personified 
steps onto the scene.  Yet whenever this happens, there seems to be always 
someone--or a group of someones--to stand against Evil and overcome it.

Hmm.

Now, that's something we *haven't* talked about much... Harry being but the 
first of a coven assembled to overcome this foe.  Perhaps it won't be all 
about Harry after all.

Still think he's special, though.  ;-)  Hey, call me crazy... lots of other 
listies do.  I don't mind.  Well, not much.  :-)

--Ebony

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Ebony AKA AngieJ
ebonyink at hotmail.com

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At the creation, ever heard a theme
Nobler than 'Go down, Moses.'  Mark its bars--
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