Average Harry?

[Scott]

No: HPFGUIDX 18954

Ebony wrote:
"Hi, list--I'm extremely tired, but must have a go at this..."

--I share this same sentiment! I'm also doing something I should 
never do, which is respond to a VERY active thread before catching up 
on messages, but I'm going to, so there.

I'm so apt to agree with Amy's view, but I also see the merit of 
Ebony's. However I think the two can work together quite nicely. I 
think Harry is ordinary, but he is also extraordinary in that he is 
able to do such great things without having to do them. His special 
ability and strength is determined by the choices that change him 
from being just another wizard. Does that make sense? 

I don't believe Harry is innately special and therefore he must 
defeat Voldemort, though I do agree that there is *something* about 
Harry that made V. want to kill him in the first place, but I don't 
believe in fate. No change that, I don't believe in unalterable fate. 
I think our lives depend on the choices we make, not the stars, or 
well...anything. But I'm also not saying that the stars and such 
can't be accurate, but if they are it's because we believe in them. 
In this case belief embodies being.

It's also important to metion that in the HPverse the above can be 
false, and prophecies CAN be real, but that doesn't mean I believe 
it. So I guess both of you are right IMO. Harry is special because 
his choices make him special, but he makes those choices because he 
is special. Uh, now I'm confusing myself!

Ebony wrote:
"So what you're saying is that the perception that There's Something 
Special About Harry will protect him?  I don't think all the DE-types 
are stupid and bumbling... he had better have more than just the 
perception.  They'd send their expendables just to try, I think."

--No, just Voldemort seems stupid and bumbling. I don't think any of 
the DE's are afraid of Harry. At most he has/will put doubt in their 
minds about V. For V. that is just as dangerous as Harry himself 
being a threat, because what good his he without followers?

Amy wrote:
"For my part, I don't for a moment think that Harry can't be hurt by
Voldemort.  <snip>:

Ebony wrote:
"I totally agree with this, and even tried to start a thread on it 
some time back (January?)... "how could Voldemort go about killing 
Harry?"  There were no takers.  I suppose no one wanted to talk about 
Harry head."

--He would uh, Avada Kedavra Harry. But I see what you're saying. The 
question to me is not "how" would V. kill Harry, but will V ever 
realise that it would be better just to kill him and not try to beat 
him first. The obvious answer is that it's none to smart to kill your 
protagonist halfway through the series bearing his name, but the 
underlying answer is, perhaps, that Voldemort doesn't have quite that 
much forsight, or that JKR is saying that V. arrogance, even more 
than Harry, will be his downfall.

Ebony wrote:
"I don't believe in luck, but for the purpose of the discussion, 
let's just say that luck, the Sacrifice, and strength of character 
all played a role in  Harry's protection in the past and continuing 
protection.  This threefold  combination still makes him special... 
how many other kids fall into this category?"

--Exactly. Harry's not special because of any one thing in 
particular. 

Ebony wrote:
"Canon seems to imply otherwise.  If this is the case, why can't 
Hermione  conjure a Patronus?  Why can't the entire fourth year DADA 
class resist  Imperius?"

--I don't think that who can cast Patroni is a very good example. I 
don't see any reason to think Hermione *couldn't* cast a Patronus if 
she had put the same work into it as Harry. The Imperious curse is a 
better example. It seems to have to do with will, and Harry's is 
extremely strong. That in itself is something that makes him special.

Ebony (or was it Amy?) wrote:
"The question is in what way he is unique.  To use Naama's 
distinction, is he unique in substance or is he just a boy who, like 
many ordinary people, can be quite extraordinary if he fulfills his 
potential?  How JKR handles this will have a big impact on whether HP 
stays one of my all-time favorites or ends up being disappointing."

--I agree, but Harry is IMO unique in substance because he is/will be 
able to fufill his potential. Just what that potential is, and how 
great it is we are yet to know.

Amy wrote:
"Even if there proves to have been a prophecy that this boy would 
defeat Voldemort and the prophecy comes true, it doesn't mean that  
that or any other prophecy =had= to come true in the HP universe.  We 
are not puppets acting out a drama whose end has already been 
written; our choices are real and make a difference."

Ebony wrote:
"After reading this, I finally understood why I'm in the less popular 
camp.  It goes beyond Harry Potter... it's a way of seeing life, I 
think. My personal worldview is that everything that happens, 
everything that ever  is, was, or will be is by intelligent design.  
I also believe that the end  is already known, but also believe in 
free will... the designer's  foreknowledge of what happens in the 
last chapter does not negate the freely made choices of the 
individual."

--How interesting. I think Ebony's right about the fact that it has 
less to do with the canon itself and far more to do with the view we 
bring to the canon. My worldview happens to be different than yours, 
but that's what makes the list so interesting. Of course everything 
happens for a reason, whether we determine the reason by making it 
happen or it's by 'intelligent design' is each person's view.

Ebony wrote:
"I love what The Phantom Tollbooth has to say about
this.  After Milo succeeds in his quest, Azaz and the Mathemagician
let him in on the secret they'd only hinted at before:  that his quest
was impossible.  So much for prophecies (but if they'd told him it was
impossible before, methinks the prophecy would have come true).  I
think Dumbledore would take a similar approach.  He believes that
people's decisions, not to mention blind chance, can overrule what
would seem to be fate."

--I don't think I've ever read "The Phantom Tollbooth" so I'm not 
sure what you're saying. That Harry's task whatever it might be is 
unaccomplishable, and if Harry knew that it would be? It's kind of 
like a book I read long ago called "Number the Stars" about Nazi 
Denmark. The little girl (what was her name?) wanted to know what was 
happening and someone told her that it was better not know because it 
kept her from being afraid. Maybe that's part of Dumbledore's reason 
for keeping things from Harry. If Harry knew what he had to do he 
wouldn't be able to face it.

Ebony wrote:
"Again, I suppose this just taps into what I believe about good and 
evil. "When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit will lift up 
a Standard against him."  Evil is always around, but once in a while 
Evil personified  steps onto the scene.  Yet whenever this happens, 
there seems to be always  someone--or a group of someones--to stand 
against Evil and overcome it."

--Once again it's our perceptions that colour our views. I think the 
reason people stand against what they see is evil is because they see 
the potential for it in themselves and know that they are only better 
than evil, because they choose to be. Mcgonagall tells Dumbledore 
that the only reason V. has powers beyond his own is because he is 
too noble to use them. To (roughly) paraphrase D. "Evil can never be 
truly defeated, but as long as there are enough of us willing to 
fight the losing battle it will never win." Harry and all the other 
"good-guys" can't expect to "win" in a glorious everything's perfect 
sense, because any victory will probably be full of loss and 
bittersweet (and only temporary).

Amy wrote:
"Now, that's something we *haven't* talked about much... Harry being 
but the first of a coven assembled to overcome this foe.  Perhaps it 
won't be all  about Harry after all."

Ebony wrote:
"Still think he's special, though.  ;-)  Hey, call me crazy... lots 
of other listies do.  I don't mind.  Well, not much.  :-)"

--You're not crazy Eb! Well not much, I get the feeling we're all a 
bit crazy (in a good way!). The story's obviously about Harry, but 
maybe not in the most clear-cut way.

I'm now not sure who's side I'm on! {{{{sigh}}}}
Just goes to show one really should catch up on messages first.

Scott