caught red-handed

[rja.carnegie at excite.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 19608

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> >There wasn't, perhaps, a trial held _in_ Azkaban, with Black
> >present?
> 
> In GoF Sirius said he hadn't had a trial, and he should know.  

> Incidently
> I'm shocked - shocked - at you, a Scot, referring to a "British" law
> applicable over 1000 years ago.  Are we talking English, Welsh,
> Scottish or Irish here, or (as I believe is the source of most of
> the concepts such as hot pursuit and blackmail and redhanded with
> which our language is littered) did it originate in the Debateable
> Land?

Being lazy about something I heard about on TV or radio once,
I think in the context of "This was what we had before we had
jury trials" (English in particular).  You seem to have a handle
on the fact that, far enough back, the national identities and
boundaries weren't as today.  At least it doesn't seem to be
Norse...

A little Web research by me now suggests it applied in both
Scotland and England, e.g. http://www.word-detective.com/back-k2.html
- the "modern English" phrase representing a legal concept that
predates modern English.

Also relevant:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/560-975dooms.html
http://www.burkes-landed-gentry.com/blg/19thEd-Farewell.asp
http://www.stanford.edu/group/CollegeBowl/Archive/byu96/wichita_st2.txt
http://orb.rhodes.edu/encyclop/culture/towns/glossary.html

In Ireland, at around the same time, cursory reading indicates
"red-handed" wasn't a judgment so much as a lifestyle ;-)

Otherwise, the general opinion seems to be that in the old
(_very_ old) days, if the posse caught you actually performing
a criminal act, you'd be deemed convicted at once, without
legal right to a court trial.  I think this may now apply only
if you commit a crime in the court room itself, such as
springing from the dock to assault the judge - some such cases
have made news here quite recently.

Wizard law, since wizard society was made separate from Muggles',
perhaps has more closely retained this legal principle, rather than
trial by judge and/or jury in court, and, in particular, allows the
executive (Minister of Magic himself?) to make judicial decisions -
something which modern constitutions tend to deem improper.

Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland

"I read them all when I was seven and I hated them" - unnamed American
office worker on the Harry Potter books (www.dilbert.com, List of
Stupid Things Overheard)