Child protagonists, teenage girls, Snapery...

[Tabouli]

No: HPFGUIDX 29612

Lisa:
> As for adult books with child protagonists

The last time this kiddific debate came up, I mentioned "The Go-Between", which is definitely an adult book, but has a 12 year old protagonist (though I suppose you could argue that it's sort of being narrated by his 60yo self).  "Tortoise by Candlight", from memory, is also adult fiction, with a 14yo female protagonist.  How about the work of Jostein Gaarder?  Found "Sophie's World" unconvincing, but IIRC it was a worldwide hit in the general fiction department.  And his (greatly superior, IMO) "The Solitaire Mystery" has a 12yo boy, though it's bordering on YA.

Granted, most adult novels have adult protagonists, but I don't think having a child, or at least youngish adolescent protagonist is all that unusual at all.  A lot of authors use this as an ideal device for a "loss of innocence" story, and well done it can be very effective.  You know, the adult world in all its squalid glory viewed through the eyes of a child who only half understands (read by a reader who fully understands) but is drawn into it and irretrievably tainted.  Many books with ostensibly adult protagonists present at least a few scenes through the eyes of the characters as children (see Margaret Atwood, for example).

More Lisa:
> All that really means is that I can't be lazy and expect to be 
mature, but many writers of "adult literature" seem to let this 
frustration spiral into a slick pessimism about life and other 
people.  John Grisham, for example, writes as if he hated all his 
characters <

Which fits well with my last point.  Most of the adult novel with child POV are pretty grim, and the grimness is all the more poignant for being viewed by someone innocent and trusting.

David:
> Interesting comments by Cindy and Penny on the Harry-Ron conflict in 
GOF.  Oddly enough, I think this part is 'big potatoes' in terms of 
the maturity of response called for from the reader.  Only Winky's 
slide into dissolution and the Pensieve scenes really compare.  How 
do we feel about the idea of a 'best friend' who so readily believes 
that Harry is lying?  This, like Winky and the show trials, is a 
sudden shaft of reality in the fantasy.<

Any thoughts from people who have or know children who read GoF?  How did they respond, and do you think they fully understood?  Now David mentions it, there *is* a touch more adult squalor in GoF, "drowning the sorrows" alcoholism, betrayal, naive social activism, evil ceremonies, murder.  Though I'd still say it's presented with the sort of metaphorical gentling people usually use when writing for older children.  Written in a way which could be measured on a child-sized scale, if you see what I mean.


Laurence59:
> One could imagine that James Potter had a clause in his will 
about the raising of his children should anything happen to him. It 
probably didn't specify "my wife's horrible sister," but I can easily 
see it saying, "Uh, not Severus, for god's sake, man!"<

Heh heh.  I can see it now... "Hey Dumbo, how's it hanging?  Look's like I've kicked the bucket, so if Harry's hanging on, find him somewhere to crash, would ya?"

Joshua:
> That seems a bit backwards.  She shows affection towards Harry 
because she likes Ron?  Does not compute!  :)

Ahhh, not necessarily.  The teenage girl can be a very devious and self-conscious creature, and a touch of double bluff is more than possible.  OK, so I don't Hermione is this sort of character, but believe you me, if she was, it could well be a case of "I don't want to be too obvious that I like Ron, because he might not like me back and that would be totally embarrassing, but I'll test out whether he likes me by showing affection to *Harry*, because it doesn't matter whether Harry Likes me or not, and that way I can see by Ron's reaction whether he's jealous, and if he *is* that means it's probably safe to hint at him that I actually like him..."

And so on.  What teenage girls seem not to factor in is that most teenage boys are too straightforward for this sort of social manipulation (less focussed on the personal/emotional plane), and are apt to take the most obvious face-value interpretation.  Especially if they *do* like the girl in question, and are in agonies about how and whether to act on it, and throes of paranoia about her preferring someone else with bigger muscles or whatever.  And all too often in the girl's view she is going out of her way to dump armloads of clues that she likes him into his lap, which he never seems to pick up, leading to endless agonised phonecalls to her friends analysing every syllable he utters in her presence.  While the guy broods, shoves his still burning torch into a corner in resignation, berates himself for lacking the courage to ask her out (she would probably have said no anyway), and then goes off to play football (or Playstation, or to the pub, or whatever)...

(hey, nothing like a few gender stereotypes... make the world go round!  Just ask Helen Fielding...)

Take it from an ex-teenage girl who has tried these tactics (wot, me?  A manipulative flirt?), and had them backfire on her every time.  "But if you liked me, why were you always talking to him?  I thought you liked him!"  "Yeah, but that was because I was too *embarrassed* to talk to you, because I liked you!"  "But that's stupid!" etc.


Debra:
> I personally feel very strongly that Charlie 
graduated from Hogwarts in 1990, Bill in 1989

Which would make Bill just the right age for me!  Heehee!  (hope he's wised up to those sneaky flirtation tactics by now... or that I've summoned the courage to be more direct!)

Jason:
> Now what I want to know is why Gryffindor was forced to play against
Ravenclaw while their seeker was in a coma in the hospital wing
(PS/SS), while Slytherin is able to postpone games when their seeker
gets a scrape on his arm? <

Now this is, IMO, a very good point indeed.  A Flint, or a reflection of Snape's tendency to favour his own house while McGonagall sticks steadfastly to the rules?

Lee:
> Voldemort would have wanted a source of information as badly as Dumbledore did; he may have
really enjoyed the irony of sending the old fool a "spy" who would really be
an agent of evil. Voldy didn't need to know that Snape was really serious
about defecting; only Dumbledore did. That way, when Dumbledore announced to
the world that Severus was spying for the good side, none of the DE's would
have been surprised--they'd have "known" that it was all with Voldemort's approval.<

I'm inclined to agree.  Surely from Voldemort's point of view, if he has a spy in Dumbledore's camp, the more widely and devotedly people believe that the spy is now reformed and repented and Doing Good, the better.  Add to that the possibility that Snape favours Draco to convince Voldemort, and my my.  It's a very dangerous and complicated game our Severus looks to be playing, doing his best to convince both sides of his loyalty.  Takes someone very smart and devious, that...

Tabouli (see?  I told you I don't hate Snape.  Fascinating fellow)


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