From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 1 03:15:54 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 03:15:54 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: What would you see in the Mirror of Erised/Boggart? In-Reply-To: <9p8a55+24cn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9p8n5a+tp5t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26940 Great questions, Usergoogol. The answers, however, will surely be OT: personal replies, very interesting for those of us who like to get to know each other's non-HP life better but not themselves relevant to HP. Please answer these questions on OT-Chatter, everyone. Thanks! Amy Z Magical Mod Squad From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 04:35:18 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 04:35:18 -0000 Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb? In-Reply-To: <9p5jf2+p239@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9p8rq6+oqbt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26941 Why doesn't Harry have to force it to assume > a comical form? Because Harry is such a powerful wizard and so > talented at DADA that he can just skip that step, perhaps? I think this is more likely than not - his DADA skills are just blooming... From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 04:45:29 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 04:45:29 -0000 Subject: A question to ponder (Dumbledore) Message-ID: <9p8sd9+l57g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26942 OK -- we know Dumbledore knew/knows what happened the night James/Lily died (or at leat the version of events McGonagall asked him about - in any case, he *thinks* he knows the full story, let's prhase is that way). HOW? He couldn't have been there - because Voldy is afraid of him. Was a spy of Dumbledore's there? Snape, maybe? I have some theories...but they don't have much ground with our current canon knowledge...anyone? m. From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 12:10:20 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:10:20 +0200 Subject: Jo's "of course" References: <9p8sd9+l57g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <020b01c14a72$0aa83ed0$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 26943 In an interview, Jo was once asked which houses Hagrid and Lilly were in. Here reply was "Gryffindor, of course." (Or perhaps "naturally.") Does anyone have a link to that article? I read it myself (some time back), but I can't remember where. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 1 12:36:17 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:36:17 -0000 Subject: Prefect polls a-coming Message-ID: <9p9o01+msoe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26944 Hi all! One of the burning questions that will be answered in Book Five is "Who in the Trio's year will become a prefect?" Will Harry get yet another feather in his cap, or is this perhaps Neville's moment to shine? Will Draco's tyrannical tendencies be exacerbated by prefect powers, or will Crabbe grab the glory, leading to a falling-out among the DE wannabes? How about a Patil-dominated prefecture, one in Ravenclaw, one in Gryffindor? I am about to post a poll created by Haggridd to determine just this. We'll close it when OoP comes out and see whether any of us should be given the Divination job at Hogwarts. Actually, it is 8 polls; sorry for the flurry of e-mails, but the only way to set up a poll on Yahoogroups is one question at a time. NB: I put the students whose gender and/or house are unknown in every possible category--I mention this so that you don't wonder who the heck Sally-Anne Perks is and why she's in Gryffindor. I did assume, however, that we know all of the Gryffindor boys. Those who disagree may certainly choose "none of the above." I also assumed one prefect of each gender for each house--not at all a settled question, but the second- and third-place rankings will stand as our thoughts on who else might get the nod if there are more than one. How you voted will be visible. Have fun! Amy Z From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 1 12:37:46 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:37:46 -0000 Subject: What would you see in the Mirror of Erised/Boggart? In-Reply-To: <9p8a55+24cn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9p9o2q+b67j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26945 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > Well?? Me, my Boggart would probably turn into a bomb or something. (My greatest fear is spontaneous catastrophic death. Like a bomb or tidal wave.) > > What would I see in the Mirror of Erised? Well, probably I'd be about twenty-something (older than I am now, btw) and I'd be in an office writing, and I'd have all sorts of awards and pictures of friends behind me. > > (I'm gonna start a database so that people can tell what they would see, without taking up much space. But I'd rather people reply directly to this post.) I'm afraid of pain. The last time I experienced pain, it was being stung by a bee/wasp. Since then I've been frozen by fear when ever there's a bee or a wasp buzzing around - just the buzz gives me creeps.. so er... I guess my boggart would be a bee or wasp or some such... What comes to my fondest wish... Well, I'd like to look into Mirror of Erised to see what it [i]is[/i]! I really don't know... From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 12:38:15 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:38:15 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1001939895.133.20634.f6@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26946 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which Gryffindor boy of Harry's year will be prefect? o Seamus Finnigan o Neville Longbottom o Harry Potter o Dean Thomas o Ron Weasley o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 12:39:49 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:39:49 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1001939989.97.6618.s2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26947 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which Gryffindor girl of Harry's year will be prefect? o Lavender Brown o Hermione Granger o Morag MacDougal o ______ Moon o ______ Nott o Parvati Patil o Sally-Anne Perks o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 12:41:05 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:41:05 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1001940065.115.8616.aj@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26948 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which Slytherin boy of Harry's year will be prefect? o Vincent Crabbe o Gregory Goyle o Draco Malfoy o ______ Moon o ______ Nott o Blaise Zabini o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 12:42:38 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:42:38 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1001940158.428.20575.k5@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26949 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which Slytherin girl of Harry's year will be prefect? o Millicent Bulstrode o Morag MacDougal o ______ Moon o ______ Nott o Pansy Parkinson o Sally-Anne Perks o Blaise Zabini o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 12:44:31 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:44:31 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1001940271.133.30885.f1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26950 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which Hufflepuff boy of Harry's year will be prefect? o Justin Finch-Fletchley o Ernie Macmillan o ______ Moon o ______ Nott o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 12:46:29 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:46:29 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1001940389.93.58818.q1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26951 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which Hufflepuff girl of Harry's year will be prefect? o Hannah Abbott o Susan Bones o Morag MacDougal o ______ Moon o ______ Nott o Sally-Anne Perks o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 12:47:26 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:47:26 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1001940446.93.20980.f6@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26952 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which Ravenclaw boy of Harry's year will be prefect? o Terry Boot o ______ Moon o ______ Nott o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 13:05:03 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:05:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jo's "of course" (actually "naturally") References: <9p8sd9+l57g@eGroups.com> <020b01c14a72$0aa83ed0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <021501c14a79$afbc0e40$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 26953 Bother. I just found them myself. Of well ... ... In case anyone else is looking for the chats in question (there were two), www.hpgalleries.com has collected some tidbits from some of Rowlings' interviews at the following URL: http://www.hpgalleries.com/c115.htm. The interviews are linked at the bottom of the same page. Which leads to a second question: Does anyone know of a site with an exhaustive list of Rowling interview links? (Something like what the-leaky-cauldron has done for general HP news.) This would be incredibly useful, particularly if the page in question had a google box set to query all the linked pages. There are zillions of newsites out there, but I've yet to find one that was helpful for people trying to collect any beans Jo has ever spilled about any given subject. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, whose more human instincts admit to discomfort about ferreting out everything Ms. Rowling has ever said about anything. However, his "fan" instincts, not to mention his academic set, think the human ones are a bunch of ninnies.) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From sluther at tuna.net Mon Oct 1 13:13:44 2001 From: sluther at tuna.net (sluther at tuna.net) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:13:44 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Heyman comment from EW In-Reply-To: <9p65th+npjl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9p9q68+3bm3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26954 can someone explain the phrase "Deus ex machina" please... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > How do you guys interpret this quote? > > > > "There are certain things that will be a surprise that aren't fully > > evolved in the book. You think about Voldemort. You look at what > > happens in the end. It's so deus ex machina." > > > Am I missing something glaringly obvious? (It > > wouldn't be the first time.) > > > > -Luke > > I doubt you are missing anything, Luke. As much as I love PS/SS, the > ending is a classic "deus ex machina." Albus Dumbledore suddenly > turns up and saves the day. No explanation as to how he arrived at > his decision and no explanation as to how Quirrell/Voldemort was > defeated. You might as well have lowered him down in a basket tied > to ropes, a la Aristophanes. So Heywood is 100% correct. Perhaps he > is referring in the EW interview to there being some footage in the > movie depicting how Dumbledore defeats Voldemort, and not just have > Harry wake up like Dorothy in "The Wizard of Oz" to find that > everything has turned out well. > > Haggridd From sluther at tuna.net Mon Oct 1 13:18:54 2001 From: sluther at tuna.net (sluther at tuna.net) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:18:54 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <20010929111207.53279.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9p9qfu+93gd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26955 what's a kneazle????? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > >I would say Mrs. Norris is a clear > >example of a familiar. She certainly > >isn't an ordinary cat. > > Is she, perhaps, part kneazle, too? > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie > > ===== > Pensieve > A New Harry Potter Discussion Group > for Adults > Low Traffic - High Quality > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. > http://phone.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 1 13:29:36 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:29:36 -0000 Subject: Who is your favorite bit player (and why)? Message-ID: <9p9r40+51vh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26956 Most of the Really Big Stars in HP have their own clubs. Ron has C.R.A.B., Hermione has S.C.H.A.B.B., Snape has Snapefans, and Lupin and Sirius have clubs (although the names are in flux). But HP contains a great number of bit players with tiny roles, and some of these are really wonderful. These characters will never get clubs, unfortunately, but they do a lot to enrich the books. My favorite is Sir Cadogan, the little knight who directs Harry, Hermione and Ron to their first Divination class in PoA. I think he only gets two scenes or so, but he really comes to life in just a few paragraphs. Cindy ----------------- "Farewell!" cried the knight, popping his head into a painting of some sinsiter-looking monks. "Farewell, my comrades-in-arms! If ever you have need of noble heart and steely sinew, call upon Sir Cadogan!" "Yeah, we'll call you," muttered Ron as the knight disappeared, "If we ever need someone mental." From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Oct 1 13:34:50 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:34:50 -0400 Subject: Boggarts and Dementors Message-ID: <209E0CA7.4C64D705.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 26957 Amy Z wrote: >Which returns us to a very interesting question: what effect *does* a Boggart have on people? >The Boggart-Dementor has much the same effect as a real Dementor: the lights go out, Harry (and presumably Lupin) relives horrible memories, etc. Why doesn't Lupin transform when the Boggart turns into the moon, then? My theory is that he would if he didn't get rid of it pretty fast. Some good answers have already been given on this: here's my two Kt (we need proper symbols with lines through for Ga, Sk, and Kt, BTW Even better, like Lsd, the letters should not correspond). The ability of the Boggart to produce real effects may be mainly limited by the magical ability of the person affected. (Someone made this suggestion two or three months ago.) Harry is, we are given to understand, quite a powerful wizard (though to be fair we have been given only a limited idea what is meant by that), and so the Boggart is, through his power, able to make the lights go out. Whether Lupin would relive horrible memories might then be a function of their relative ability. I think it's an intersting question whether Lupin would transform if left defenceless alone with a Boggart. Even if, as Rita suggests, the transformation is induced by the phase and not the appearance of the moon, it is transformation that is the essence of the fear, and if the power to do this is in Lupin himself, he would do it. OTOH, if the power is in some kind of infective magical organism (phylogenetic classification of Lycanthrobacillus, please, Dave), this would not be affected by Lupin's own hijacked magical ability, and so he would not transform. Of course, we have only been given an elementary lesson in dealing with Boggarts: an experienced wizard like Lupin might have a number of strategies over and above Riddikulus for managing a Boggart - for example, permitting him to observe its effect on Harry without himself being affected. On the question of what Lupin means by fearing only fear itself, I think possibly we are reading too much into it. The point is that most people's Boggart, as somebody has mentioned, is a concrete external thing. In Harry's case, it's another being which acts directly on the mind (or soul?). So Lupin is indicating, in a loose sort of way, that Harry has got beyond being frightened of this or that thing, and is afraid only of the darkness within himself which the Dementor can call forth. You could argue that if you could find a person whose fear is strictly fear itself, you could use them to find out what a boggart lookd like in its 'natural' state, as it would transform into ... a Boggart. What happens if two Boggarts meet? If a Boggart meets a Dementor? As far as Lupin's own reaction is concerned, we have too many reasons why the full moon should be his Boggart. What it shows, as Hermione no doubt realised, is that Lupin's struggle against his own condition is the dominant feature of his life, around which everything else has been shaped. Even the good things in it reflect this - the whole MWPP were brought together by it. David, disappointed that Amy Zabini has not revealed the gender of the wizard in her family. __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From szabinasnape at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 13:40:19 2001 From: szabinasnape at yahoo.com (Szabina Snape) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 06:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is your favorite bit player (and why)? In-Reply-To: <9p9r40+51vh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011001134019.18397.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26958 I love Neville. He's just so sweet and good hearted, yet he never gets a break. I've looked for Neville fan fics and have found none--unless you count the one where Dumbledore decided Harry should spend part of his summer with Neville for security purposes. Szabina __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 1 13:50:33 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:50:33 -0000 Subject: Boggarts - MOVIE: Heyman - deus ex machina - V's memory Message-ID: <9p9sb9+ufbf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26959 Dave H wrote: > More problematic for me is the boggart in the maze, it turns into a > tangle-footed dementor first, *then* he says "Riddikulus", which > destroys it (without laughter), just the reverse of what it should be. > *That* I think is a genuine Flint. It might just be leaving out some steps, as with the scene in Lupin's office. We don't see what amusing form it takes when Harry says "Riddikulus"; we don't hear Harry laugh; but both might happen. I also agree with ...was it Luke? sorry... that it might not be necessary actually to laugh aloud; what wipes a Boggart out is the change in its victim from fearful to amused. Do you think laughter kills Boggarts, or do they just disappear and go somewhere else? Luke wrote: > How do you guys interpret this quote? > > "There are certain things that will be a surprise that aren't fully > evolved in the book. You think about Voldemort. You look at what > happens in the end. It's so deus ex machina." Haggridd wrote: >Perhaps he > is referring in the EW interview to there being some footage in the > movie depicting how Dumbledore defeats Voldemort, and not just have > Harry wake up like Dorothy in "The Wizard of Oz" to find that > everything has turned out well. Given that they're probably going to have to cut beloved scenes in order to keep the movie to anything approximating normal length, I would rather they didn't add in scenes that aren't there. Dumbledore's appearance is just as much a deux ex machina whether or not we see the showdown between him and V. I think Heyman's "not fully evolved" comment was a euphemism for "we've written stuff that JKR didn't." Susan Hall wrote: >Fawkes in CoS may be rather more of d.e.m I don't think so. JKR saves it from being such by making Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore a major theme--and one that ties back into his fears about where he belongs. Fawkes doesn't "just show up"; he is called. Susan again: >Incidentally, we've been talking about whether Neville got in the way of a > memory charm, but compared to the crucial things Voldemort forgets Neville > counts as Mr Eidetic. LOL! > Anyone want to suggest that the traumatic > circumstances of his becoming an orphan damaged Tom Riddle's memory? We do know it was a difficult birth . . . Amy Z ------------------------------------------------- "Blimey," said the other twin. "Are you--?" "He =is=," said the first twin. "Aren't you?" he added to Harry. "What?" said Harry. "=Harry Potter=," chorused the twins. "Oh, him," said Harry. "I mean, yes, I am." --HP and the Philosopher's Stone ------------------------------------------------- From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 13:46:44 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:46:44 +0200 Subject: Deus ex Machina References: <9p9q68+3bm3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <022f01c14a7f$825030c0$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 26960 > can someone explain the phrase "Deus ex machina" please... Susan Hall did yesterday. Literally, "god out of the machine." In ancient Greek dramas, playwrights had Zeus (or other divinities) reeled onto the stage to untangle inextricably bungled plotlines. Eventually, it developed into the way a certain type of play was supposed to be done, rather like the way Mr. Bond is supposed to punch villains to kingdom come exactly three-and-a-half minutes before the close of his movies. In response to Susan's post: As I see the word used, I wouldn't limit the term to plot resolutions delivered by a divine or paternal figure. To my ears, it is more of a catch-all for all unnatural and contrived attempts to help out the good guy. It combines with _malefactor sub machina_ ("bad guy under the car") to create the MacGyver knife of story-telling. Anyway, I'd say GoF's problems are more of the latter sort. I can imagine Dumbledore smelling a rat and heading back Hogwardswards; what I can't imagine is Real!Crouch not having the wits to kill Harry and scram. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who, btw, thinks "Sex ex machina" was Thurber at his best.) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 1 14:51:25 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:51:25 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina/Forgetful Characters In-Reply-To: <022f01c14a7f$825030c0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <9p9vtd+cf4f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26961 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: > >> Anyway, I'd say GoF's problems are more of the latter sort. I can imagine > Dumbledore smelling a rat and heading back Hogwardswards; what I can't > imagine is Real!Crouch not having the wits to kill Harry and scram. > Because I like GoF so much, I'll go ahead and try to justify the "Crouch/Moody doesn't get around to killing Harry" scene. From Crouch/Moody's perspective, his actions make some sense. He certainly needs to make sure Voldemort is re-birthed before he kills Harry. Voldemort would be pretty ticked had his faithful servant killed Harry too soon. Now, for the part where Crouch/Moody tells Harry all about how brilliant he had been in helping Harry through the tasks, etc. Hmmm. This is tough for me, but it is only tough because I haven't ever been an Evil Overlord. I would imagine that it is no fun at all to kill the hero while the hero has that puzzled "What the heck is going on? How could you do this to me?" look on his face. No, you want a wide-eyed look that says, "Drat! He really got me good that time. I feel like such a fool!" This, coupled with the fact that Crouch/Moody has every reason to think that Dumbledore is stumbling around the hospital wing looking for Harry and that Crouch/Moody has redundant security devices in his office (he can see through the door and has a foe glass), would cause anyone to think they have all the time in the world and get complacent. I am, however, getting weary of HP characters with miseable memories at crucial moments. Let's see. As someone recently mentioned, we have: Voldemort ("Harry's Mother's protection -- I forgot!") Riddle ("Phoenix tears -- I forgot!") Riddle (Forgets not to let Harry anywhere near the diary during the crucial showdown, because if Harry stabs it with a fang, Riddle's a gonner) Lupin (a werewolf transformation is painful and the full moon is coming and I could kill someone if I don't drink my potion, but I forgot) Crouch/Moody (forgets to watch the door or the foe glass) Crouch/Moody (forgets to take polyjuice potion as often as he should have) Cindy (thinking that Voldemort should buy Palm Pilots for all of the Death Eaters) From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 15:45:28 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question to ponder (Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: <9p8sd9+l57g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011001154528.43885.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26962 --- mellienel2 at yahoo.com wrote: > OK -- we know Dumbledore knew/knows what happened > the night > James/Lily died (or at leat the version of events > McGonagall asked > him about - in any case, he *thinks* he knows the > full story, let's > prhase is that way). > > HOW? Dumbledore's itinerary that day seems to have involved 1. establishing exactly what had happened at Godric's Hollow apparently by some means other than a personal visit to the site. Possibly he could have *seen* what happened magically, as it's supposed to be possible to scry for past and present events as well as future, (and the first two might be more reliable). 2. Dispatch Hagrid to retrieve Harry. 3. Decide what's to be done about Harry and arrange the Ancient Magic necessary to protect him. Write letter to Dursleys. 4. Make his way to Privet Drive to wait for Hagrid and Harry - and meet Professor MacGonagal. As for where Hagrid and Harry were all this time, I might guess they were at Hogwarts or some other secure place until Dumbledore made the necessary magical and other arrangements. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 1 15:54:01 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 15:54:01 -0000 Subject: A question to ponder (Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: <20011001154528.43885.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pa3ip+3rq4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26963 > --- mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > OK -- we know Dumbledore knew/knows what happened > > the night > > James/Lily died (or at leat the version of events > > McGonagall asked > > him about - in any case, he *thinks* he knows the > > full story, let's > > prhase is that way). > > > > HOW? > Perhaps this is Prof. Trewlawney's first Real Prediction. Perhaps before or after the events at Godric's Hollow, Prof. Trewlawney goes into a trance and gives a detailed description to Dumbledore. Then he puts the rest of the events together based on Hagrid's report. This approach would be convenient, anyway. Too bad Trewlawney did not also See that Sirius was not the secret keeper. Cindy From joym999 at aol.com Mon Oct 1 16:31:37 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:31:37 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #15 reminder Message-ID: <9pa5p9+hnr9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26964 Don't forget about this week's contest!!!!! Submit your entry today!!!!! Is this exciting or what!!!!????? Way back when, pigwidgeon37 said: ".. it is never made clear who nominates or elects the Minister of Magic." and Lyda Clunas speculated that "I'd imagine that there's some sort of board of Ministry officials or such, but who knows, perhaps it's a popular election. That would be interesting..." Interesting, indeed. Let's suppose there is an election and wizards and witches like Dumbledore, Fudge, Crouch, McGonagall, etc. had to run for office. What would their election campaigns be like? You tell us. Write a political slogan, campaign ad, or anything else campaign-related for a candidate for Minister of Magic. Your candidate can be a known HP character, or a character you make up. You can even run for Minister of Magic yourself. (Make the most of it...you're not likely to get another opportunity.) As an example, I suspect that if Gilderoy Lockhart were running for MoM, his campaign slogan would be something along the line of: "Vote for Lockhart -- The Only Wizard with a Smile Dazzling Enough to Defeat the Dark Lord!" Email your entry to me at HP4GUCon at a... or to the above address. (Make sure you save your entry, and send it a second time if you don't receive a response from me.) You've got a week or so. May the best wizard win. From lucy at luphen.co.uk Mon Oct 1 19:06:50 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:06:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A question to ponder (Dumbledore) References: <9pa3ip+3rq4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001801c14aac$5e4205a0$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 26965 Sorry, but that doesn't work at all - a prediction can't be a detailed description of something that's already happened!! Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A question to ponder (Dumbledore) > --- mellienel2 at y... wrote: > > OK -- we know Dumbledore knew/knows what happened > > the night > > James/Lily died (or at leat the version of events > > McGonagall asked > > him about - in any case, he *thinks* he knows the > > full story, let's > > prhase is that way). > > > > HOW? > Perhaps this is Prof. Trewlawney's first Real Prediction. Perhaps before or after the events at Godric's Hollow, Prof. Trewlawney goes into a trance and gives a detailed description to Dumbledore. Then he puts the rest of the events together based on Hagrid's report. This approach would be convenient, anyway. Too bad Trewlawney did not also See that Sirius was not the secret keeper. Cindy Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sluther at tuna.net Mon Oct 1 19:26:24 2001 From: sluther at tuna.net (sluther at tuna.net) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 19:26:24 -0000 Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG) In-Reply-To: <9oeeo9+3273@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pag10+dhir@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26966 who are the Evans? Are you assuming this is Lilly and Petunia's maiden name? How do you know that? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., peterhbrine at y... wrote: > > 1. What new magical place will we visit? > > Durmstrang, Azkaban > > > > 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who? > > Not in this book, but Petunia later on. (BTW, do we know for an > absolute fact that Petunia and Lily's parents were really muggles? > My pet theory is the Evans are related to Dumbledore - hence > the "auburn hair" (young Dumbledore and Lily's hair color) connection. > > > 3. Identify the next DADA teacher. > > A new character just like the other books. > > > 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other deaths, and > if so, who? > > No "beloved" characters will die. (why do we think they must in this > book?) > > > 5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in > OoF? > > Krum, Lupin, Sirius, Fleur, Dobby > > > 6. At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster? > > Yes > > > 7. At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic? > > Yes > > 8. At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or > will he have changed in some way? > > Same Neville, but stronger - we will know what happened to his > parents and he will be better for having talked about it. > > > 9. At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name? > > No - not until Peter Petigrew comes to justice in book 7 > > > 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? > > No, at least not directly. > > > 11. Of the following magical things, which will a character use or > confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping > willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight > bus. > > Marauder's Map, Whomping Willow, Knight Bus, Floo Powder, Sneakoscope > > > 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? If so, who will be the > Gryffindor Keeper? Gryffindor Captain? > > Yes, Ron Keeper, Angelina Captain > > > 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? Who? > > No, but Hermione (and possibly the other two) will start trying. > > > 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher? > > A crazy coot (a la Moody) who doesn't play well with others but is > vehemently against Voldmorte. He will make an appearance in OoP but > will not play a major role. > > > 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way? > > Not in this book - probably not until book 7 - my guess is he has the > opportunity to use it against Lupin, but Harry's previous compassion > for Wormtail will prevent Wormtail from going through with it. > > > Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another 10 months for OoF) > > I hope it is no MORE that 10 months. > > -Peter From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 19:32:30 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 19:32:30 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <022f01c14a7f$825030c0$e500a8c0@shasta> Message-ID: <9pagce+42at@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26967 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" > As I see the word used, I wouldn't limit the term to plot > resolutions delivered by a divine or paternal figure. To my ears, it > is more of a catch-all for all unnatural and contrived attempts to > help out the good guy. This last bit might be a little too general for people trying to understand the term though. Because obviously it's use has expanded in modern day beyond just divine intervention, but I'd say it's still at least limited in more proper usage to the protagonist being saved by some external force or third party in a contrived way. It's not just any unnatural or contrived attempt, because I (at least) wouldn't classify the incompetence of the antagonist (see below about GOF), which is nonetheless often contrived, as "deus ex machina". Because while it is a force external to the protagonist, it is not external to the conflict since it belongs to the villain. The intervening force of "deus ex machina" is usually external to the conflict up until the point of intervention--hence why many consider it contrived in the first place. > It combines with _malefactor sub machina_ ("bad guy under the car") > to create the MacGyver knife of story-telling. LOL! > Anyway, I'd say GoF's problems are more of the latter sort. I can > imagine Dumbledore smelling a rat and heading back Hogwardswards; > what I can't imagine is Real!Crouch not having the wits to kill > Harry and scram. And again, the first example is a much closer (though not precise) case of "deus ex machina", but the second, while perhaps a less credible plot development overall, is not as close a case. Basically, I'm trying to clarify that "deus ex machina" isn't just a matter of the credibility or contrivedness of the situation, but whether or not the conflict resolved itself (which is not "deus ex machina") or was solved by something else "just in the nick of time" for the hero (which is "deus ex machina"). I'm sure you realize this, Mike; I'm mostly explaining for the sake of anyone less familiar with the term, lest they grow confused. -Luke From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 1 20:29:17 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 20:29:17 -0000 Subject: A question to ponder (Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: <001801c14aac$5e4205a0$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <9pajmt+p2lf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26968 Cindy wrote:> > Perhaps this is Prof. Trewlawney's first Real Prediction. Perhaps > before or after the events at Godric's Hollow, Prof. Trewlawney goes > into a trance and gives a detailed description to Dumbledore. Then > he puts the rest of the events together based on Hagrid's report. > > This approach would be convenient, anyway. Too bad Trewlawney did > not also See that Sirius was not the secret keeper. > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lucy Austin" wrote: > Sorry, but that doesn't work at all - a prediction can't be a detailed description of something that's already happened!! Sorry, I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I am thinking that many years ago, before Voldemort's downfall, perhaps Professor Trelawney made a prediction about the events of Godric's Hollow, e.g. that James and Lily would have a son who would defeat the Greatest Dark Wizard Who Ever Lived, etc. I don't know if we are told how long Professor Trelawney has been teaching at Hogwarts, though. I know that in PoA, McGonnagal tells us that Trelawney has predicted the death of a student annually for as long as she has taught at Hogwarts, but I can't pin down the dates. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 1 20:52:25 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 20:52:25 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <9pagce+42at@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pal29+lusj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26969 Luke wrote: Because obviously it's use has expanded > in modern day beyond just divine intervention, but I'd say it's still > at least limited in more proper usage to the protagonist being saved > by some external force or third party in a contrived way. It's not > just any unnatural or contrived attempt, because I (at least) wouldn't > classify the incompetence of the antagonist (see below about GOF), > which is nonetheless often contrived, as "deus ex machina". Because > while it is a force external to the protagonist, it is not external to > the conflict since it belongs to the villain. The intervening force > of "deus ex machina" is usually external to the conflict up until the > point of intervention--hence why many consider it contrived in the > first place. > > > Basically, I'm trying to clarify that "deus ex machina" isn't just a > matter of the credibility or contrivedness of the situation, but > whether or not the conflict resolved itself (which is not "deus ex > machina") or was solved by something else "just in the nick of time" > for the hero (which is "deus ex machina"). Luke and Mike, I suppose we could say that there aren't any real "deus ex machina" problems in the climax of the four HP books, if I'm following the discussion properly. But are there any "deus ex machina" problems in any of the smaller scenes in the books (I assume that "deus ex machina" isn't limited to the main climax at the end)? There are several instances when Harry was in a bit of a fix, and something or someone swooped in and saved him. One is when the centaur carries Harry out of the Forbidden Forest in PS/SS. Another is when the Flying Ford Anglia swooped down and saved Harry and Ron from Aragog in CoS. Another would sudden appearance of the Knight Bus in PoA. Another is when Lupin wards off the Dementor, and again when Dumbledore slows Harry down when he falls off of his broom in PoA. One more is when Moody "rescues" Harry when his foot is caught in the trick step in GoF. Are these examples of "deus ex machina"? Why do some work better than others? Of the ones I listed, the only one that didn't work for me is the Flying Ford Anglia, although I'm not entirely sure why. Also, you mentioned that "The intervening force of '"deus ex machina"' is usually external to the conflict up until the point of intervention--hence why many consider it contrived in the first place." I am wondering whether it is possible to "foreshadow" one's way out of a '"deus ex machina"' problem by dropping enough hints. Perhaps my difficulty with the Flying Ford Anglia rescue is that it did seem to come out of nowhere, whereas Lupin warding off the Dementor seemed natural because he was already there. Cindy (enjoying this discussion because it explains that Harry's escape from the graveyard was so satisfying because he did it all by himself) From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 21:37:52 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 21:37:52 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <9p9qfu+93gd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9panng+s1l8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26970 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sluther at t... wrote: > what's a kneazle????? > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > > --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > > > >I would say Mrs. Norris is a clear > > >example of a familiar. She certainly > > >isn't an ordinary cat. > > > > Is she, perhaps, part kneazle, too? With thanks to Newt Scamander's "Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them" (First American Edition pg. 24-25), here's the scoop: ********************************************* KNEAZLE MOM Classification: XXX The Kneazle was originally bred in Britain, though it is now exported worldwide. A small catlike creature with flecked, speckled, or spotted fur, outsize ears, and a tail like a lion's, the Kneazle is intelligent, independent, and occasionally aggressive, though if it takes a liking to a witch or wizard, it makes an excellent pet. The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters, and can be relied upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost. Kneazles have up to eight kittens in a litter and can interbreed with cats. Licenses are required for ownership as (like Crups and Fwoopers) Kneazles are sufficiently unusual in appearace to attract Muggle interest. ********************************************** Perhaps Mrs. Norris *is* a Kneazle (or part Kneazle, anyway). And Filch received her from Mrs. Figg? She of the cabbage-smelling (potion-smelling?), multi-"cat" house? - Denise (who is going to check her "cats" ears and tail right now) From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 21:45:07 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 21:45:07 -0000 Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb? In-Reply-To: <99.1b639bb5.28e77b86@aol.com> Message-ID: <9pao53+qfkk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26971 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > Also, IIRC, when Lupin asked Hermione how she figured out he was a > werewolf, he asked her if she noticed that his boggart transformed > into the moon. This could mean that a boggart transforming into > the moon is simply a sign that Lupin *is* a werewolf. The same > thing could happen when all werewolves see boggarts. It could be a > symptom, in a way, of their lycanthropy that has nothing to do with > fear. I'd bet that Lupin is in a group of lycanthropes who are afraid of their transformations. Hence, his boggart = fear of the moon (the trigger of those transformations). I'll go out on a limb and say that now that Voldy is back in town we'll be seeing lycanthropes that have *no* fear of the creatures they become. Or who may enjoy the terror and pain they inflict. - Denise From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 21:17:01 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 21:17:01 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <9pal29+lusj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pamge+9fri@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26972 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Luke wrote: > > > > Basically, I'm trying to clarify that "deus ex machina" isn't just > a > > matter of the credibility or contrivedness of the situation, but > > whether or not the conflict resolved itself (which is not "deus ex > > machina") or was solved by something else "just in the nick of > time" > > for the hero (which is "deus ex machina"). My favorite example of this kind of thing is a turn of the century boys' book about the adventures of Frank Merriweather. This was serialized in the pulp magazines of the day. One chapter concluded with Frank tied up in a crated and buried at the bottom of an old mine pit. The next issue, with the next chapter, began: "After frank escaped from the pit..." BTW, Luke, I am still waiting with bated breath for the "Compleat Theory of the Modified Limited Partially Omniscient Author" or whatever it was. > > Luke and Mike, I suppose we could say that there aren't any > real "deus ex machina" problems in the climax of the four HP books, > if I'm following the discussion properly. > There are several instances when Harry > was in a bit of a fix, and something or someone swooped in and saved > him. > > Are these examples of "deus ex machina"? Why do some work better > than others? Of the ones I listed, the only one that didn't work for > me is the Flying Ford Anglia, although I'm not entirely sure why. That is because this is the classic example of "machina ex machina", which only comes into play in fiction involving the internal combustion engine. This is explained further in the well known work, "Pistons, Gearwheels and their Effect on the Development of Dranatic Resolution and Catharsis", which I'm afraod is a bit too lenghty to reproduce here. *grin* > Also, you mentioned that "The intervening force > of '"deus ex machina"' is usually external to the conflict up until > the point of intervention--hence why many consider it contrived in > the first place." I am wondering whether it is possible > to "foreshadow" one's way out of a '"deus ex machina"' problem by > dropping enough hints. Perhaps my difficulty with the Flying Ford > Anglia rescue is that it did seem to come out of nowhere, whereas > Lupin warding off the Dementor seemed natural because he was already > there. It is precisely this foreshadowing, the laying of a credible foundation, that cures the "deus ex machina." > Cindy (enjoying this discussion because it explains that Harry's > escape from the graveyard was so satisfying because he did it all by > himself) Haggridd From k_wayment at hotmail.com Mon Oct 1 22:08:29 2001 From: k_wayment at hotmail.com (k_wayment at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 22:08:29 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Parents Message-ID: <9papgt+uvo9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26973 Hello! I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I must have not been a member at the time. I was wondering how Hagrid's dad could have been a wizard and his mother a giant. I'm not going to get too technical, but really--a giant woman and a small man...think about it. Any ideas? ~Kyli *who probably thinks about Harry Potter enough to last her a life time and a half.* From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 22:10:27 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 22:10:27 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Flowery Pink Umbrella Message-ID: <9papkj+bovr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26974 I've been re-reading canon (not like I'm obsessed or anything) and I lingered on Hagrid's pumpkin patch in CoS. Harry notices Hagrid's flowery pink umbrella and thinks that a wand - Hagrid's wand from his Hogwarts days. But what if it is Peter Pettigrew's? Okay - Hagrid goes to find Sirius to return the bike he borrowed (in order to transport baby Harry to the Dursley's). He sees the destruction "Sirius" has caused, and finds Peter's clothing on the ground. In the clothing is a wand. Stunned by the apparent evil nature of a person he trusted (Sirius), he filches the wand to protect himself. Telling himself that Peter won't be able to use it any more, Hagrid hides the wand in an "umbrella" and (along with a learn-at-home kit) practices in secret. Thoughs, queries, complaints? - Denise From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 22:43:33 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's Parents In-Reply-To: <9papgt+uvo9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011001224333.37716.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26975 One of the disadvantages of being a grownup fan of Harry Potter is one finds oneself thinking about the - er - physical rammifications of a relationship between a giant and a normal sized human. However since the human in question *is* a wizard I imagine engorgement spells were used as seemed appropriate. --- k_wayment at hotmail.com wrote: > Hello! > > I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I must > have not been a > member at the time. I was wondering how Hagrid's dad > could have been a > wizard and his mother a giant. I'm not going to get > too technical, but > really--a giant woman and a small man...think about > it. > Any ideas? > ~Kyli *who probably thinks about Harry Potter > enough to last her a > life time and a half.* > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 1 16:02:55 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:02:55 -0000 Subject: JKR's Point of View Message-ID: <9pa43f+pfsq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26976 In the HP books, most everything is seen through Harry's POV. If he doesn't witness it, dream about it, or fall into some magical device (pensieve, Riddle's diary), we don't hear abut it (with only a few exceptions). I wonder how JKR will handle this in OoP now that we have two separate "camps" (Voldemort's and Dumbledore's), but Harry only has access to Dumbledor's camp. At this point in the series, could JKR get away with switching to an objective omnicient POV? Would the books be as good if written in that fashion? Can JKR get the reader enough information about what is going on with Voldemort's forces using only Harry's POV? Will she have to create a whole closetful of devices Harry will fall into so that he can report what is going on? Will he have a new dream every night? Will Harry ever get any sleep? In other series, how have the authors handled this issue? Are we going to get pages and pages of "Hey, everyone, guess what happened to me the other day" kind of expositive dialogue? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Cindy (wondering what Sirius and Lupin are doing, and worried she won't find out because Harry isn't there with them) From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 23:01:59 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <20011001224333.37716.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011001230159.56069.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26977 We know of at least one, The Salem Witches' Institute, (and does the name indicate it is a girls' school? If so there must be a parallel boys' school 'The Salem Warlocks Institute'? And what exactly is the difference between a Wizard and a Warlock? I've seen both used). I would speculate there are several schools in the United States, (it being quite a large country). The oldest would be those established during colonial times, The Salem Institute(s) in New England and a second school in Virginia, (called what?). Both schools would have been founded by Hogwarts graduates, (as they were British Colonies). There would also be a School of similar age on the west coast of Hispanic origins, possibly founded by a Beauxbaton graduate or somebody from a lesser Spanish magic school, (it is implied there are smaller, less famous schools). And a much younger, (nineteenth century) school in the midwest founded perhaps by graduates of all three American schools and native American magicians as well. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 23:52:52 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 23:52:52 -0000 Subject: Who is your favorite bit player (and why)? In-Reply-To: <20011001134019.18397.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pavkk+ghn5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26978 I would have to say Lee Jordan purely for his Quidditch commentary. He's neither a one-shot character (such as Archie with his flowered dress in GoF) nor a fairly important character who we nonetheless see very little of (such as Dumbledore). The mental picture of McGonagall giving the evil eye to Lee and saying, "Jordan--" in a warning tone of voice is priceless. Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth! I especially like his commentary about Harry's Firebolt (sounds like a sales pitch). He keeps making me think of the host on Robot Wars. My kids crack up uncontrollably whenever I'm reading Quidditch scenes to them, and they frequently go around the house saying, "Jordan--!" to each other. How can you not like the boy? :) --Barb Get Psyched Out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych http://schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb/ From usergoogol at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 00:02:49 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:02:49 -0000 Subject: Who is your favorite bit player (and why)? In-Reply-To: <9pavkk+ghn5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pb079+ppik@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26979 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > He keeps making me > think of the host on Robot Wars. > Ah, would that be that british show (also available on PBS) which is similar to America's "Battle Bots" available on Comedy Central? At any rate, a bit character? Well... that's a toughie. I have to say that Lee is definitally a hoot of a character. Dedalus Diggle's amusing too, in book one, but Lee'd have to get the title. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Oct 2 00:12:02 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:12:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <9pal29+lusj@eGroups.com> References: <9pal29+lusj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <16220306436.20011001171202@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26980 Monday, October 01, 2001, 1:52:25 PM, you wrote: chc> Are these examples of "deus ex machina"? Why do some work better chc> than others? Of the ones I listed, the only one that didn't work for chc> me is the Flying Ford Anglia, although I'm not entirely sure why. I've found that it helps to assume that the Ford was watching the whole scene from afar, waiting for the right moment to "attack"... -- Dave From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 00:09:34 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:09:34 -0000 Subject: JKR's Point of View In-Reply-To: <9pa43f+pfsq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pb0ju+ebgk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26981 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > In the HP books, most everything is seen through Harry's POV. If > he doesn't witness it, dream about it, or fall into some magical > device (pensieve, Riddle's diary), we don't hear abut it (with only > a few exceptions). > > I wonder how JKR will handle this in OoP now that we have two > separate "camps" (Voldemort's and Dumbledore's), but Harry only has > access to Dumbledor's camp. At this point in the series, could JKR > get away with switching to an objective omnicient POV? She probably could get away with it to a certain extent, as she did at the beginning of the very first book. I doubt she would overuse it if she decided to do it at all. Another possibility is that Dumbledore will have a mole in the other camp to report back. And Sirius and Lupin could send Harry owls to ask him to be in the common room late at night to tell him what they're up to via the fireplace. There are loads of possibilities for communication, and I fully expect JKR to present us with some wizarding devices that we haven't seen before, as she does in every book. > Would the books be as good if written in that fashion? Can JKR get > the reader enough information about what is going on with > Voldemort's forces using only Harry's POV? Will she have to create > a whole closetful of devices Harry will fall into so that he can > report what is going on? Will he have a new dream every night? > Will Harry ever get any sleep? Concerning your last question, I don't know how he slept at ALL after the horrendous Third Task. But in reference to your other concerns, I don't think she SHOULD give very much information about what Voldemort's forces are up to before they act. I think it is possible that a great deal of bad news will make it into the Daily Prophet, and in that manner the wizarding world will be aware of the renewed threat that Voldemort and the Death Eaters represent. Secondly, I expect that Harry will have at least one more dream because of his scar-connection to Voldemort--and I don't think reusing this device will be tedious. In fact, it would be odd if she DIDN'T use it again! How to explain this only happening once? All in all, I don't really see the necessity of knowing what's going on beyond Harry's POV because only knowing what Harry knows is one thing that makes the books interesting and suspenseful. I would hate for her to change that entirely. --Barb From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Oct 2 00:24:02 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:24:02 -0000 Subject: JKR's Point of View In-Reply-To: <9pa43f+pfsq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pb1f2+7fde@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26982 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > In the HP books, most everything is seen through Harry's POV. If he > doesn't witness it, dream about it, or fall into some magical device > (pensieve, Riddle's diary), we don't hear abut it (with only a few > exceptions). > > I wonder how JKR will handle this in OoP now that we have two > separate "camps" (Voldemort's and Dumbledore's), but Harry only has > access to Dumbledor's camp. At this point in the series, could JKR > get away with switching to an objective omnicient POV? Would the > books be as good if written in that fashion? Can JKR get the reader > enough information about what is going on with Voldemort's forces > using only Harry's POV? Will she have to create a whole closetful of > devices Harry will fall into so that he can report what is going on? > Will he have a new dream every night? Will Harry ever get any sleep? > > In other series, how have the authors handled this issue? Are we > going to get pages and pages of "Hey, everyone, guess what happened > to me the other day" kind of expositive dialogue? Does anyone have > any thoughts on this? > > Cindy (wondering what Sirius and Lupin are doing, and worried she > won't find out because Harry isn't there with them) You could even consider that there is a third camp - the oblivious Cornelius Fudge and the official MoM group. I don't think JKR will have to switch POVs. I think she can still tell the majority of the story through Harry's eyes. I'm not sure the story would be as effective if we were to know what is happening within the DE camp. There would be fewer surprises for the reader, although we could be in the position of knowing something that Harry and Co., don't know and as we see one of the good guys waltzing blithely into danger we'd sit there screaming, "No! No! Don't do it!!" Perhaps JKR will use Snape as a potential window into what is going on with V.'s forces, and Arthur Weasley as an MoM conduit. And, I'm sure that Sirius and Remus will send owls to Harry, not only to let him know they are okay, but also to try to keep tabs on him. That leads me to another thought. If JKR really wishes to use Sirius as a father-figure for Harry, I think that they will have to have more face-to-face interaction. It's all very well for them to be in communication, but I don't think that owl letters can substitute for someone's presence. I think that something has to happen in book 5 with Sirius - either he's cleared, and can then be a more active participant in Harry's life, or something dreadful (GULP!!) will happen to him. Or, JKR will develop some settings where the two will actually have the chance to meet, talk, act like normal people, without every meeting hinging on some sort of danger or calamity in Harry's life. Marianne From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 00:26:07 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:26:07 -0000 Subject: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <20011001230159.56069.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pb1iv+cvma@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26983 Rowena wrote: > We know of at least one, The Salem Witches' > Institute, (and does the name indicate it is a girls' > school? Actually, some Brits on the list have helped us out here. Once you know about the Women's Institute, a British housewives' association, the play on words is obvious, as is the joke about the gossiping witches seen at the tent in question. The witches of the SWI were middle-aged to boot. So the SWI is probably not a school for Hogwarts-aged students, though Salem would certainly be a good place for one. > I would speculate there are several schools in the > United States, (it being quite a large country). The > oldest would be those established during colonial > times, The Salem Institute(s) in New England and a > second school in Virginia, (called what?). Both > schools would have been founded by Hogwarts graduates, > (as they were British Colonies). > There would also be a School of similar age on the > west coast of Hispanic origins, possibly founded by a > Beauxbaton graduate or somebody from a lesser Spanish > magic school, (it is implied there are smaller, less > famous schools). Not only on the west coast, but anywhere else the Spanish explored. And perhaps the French, Italians and Dutch got their magical hand in too? The possibilities of a wizarding world as culturally varied as Muggle America are exciting! Also, I imagine wizardry is well-known to Native Americans, so that the "Hogwarts of the West" could in fact have been established long before Hogwarts. Amy Z willing to commute to Salem -------------------------------------------------- The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that stood alone in the middle of the grounds. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------- From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 01:50:00 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 18:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <9pb1iv+cvma@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011002015000.61510.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26984 --- Amy Z wrote: > So the SWI is probably not a school for > Hogwarts-aged students, though Salem would certainly > be a good place for one. Maybe the Institute is an organization for old girls? > Not only on the west coast, but anywhere else the > Spanish explored. Naturally there would be schools in Latin America, possibly with Aztec, Maya and Inca influences. > And perhaps the French, Italians and Dutch got their > magical hand in > too? The possibilities of a wizarding world as > culturally varied as > Muggle America are exciting! Yes they are. Don't forget African and Asian traditions too. New Orleans would be a natural center for the former and San Francisco Chinatown for the latter. Two more schools. A Durmstrang influenced school might also exist somewhere, founded by immigrants for eastern Europe in the early 1900s. > Also, I imagine wizardry is well-known to Native > Americans, so that > the "Hogwarts of the West" could in fact have been > established long before Hogwarts. Undoubtedly there are Native American Wizards and Witches but since almost all tribes were at least semi-nomadic a settled center for training is unlikely in precolumbian times. If Wizarding Americans are anywhere near as mobile as Muggle Americans I would guess there's been a lot of cross cultural magical contact. Young American Witches and Wizards are probably trained in multiple magical traditions. Which might give them a distinct edge against the likes of Voldemort who can't even remember all the ins and outs of his *own* magical culture! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From caliburncy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 02:08:15 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 02:08:15 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <9pamge+9fri@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pb7if+5g8q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26985 First off, to Haggridd and anyone else that was wondering: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > BTW, Luke, I am still waiting with bated breath for the "Compleat > Theory of the Modified Limited Partially Omniscient Author" or > whatever it was. It was the Authorial Theory of Misinformation, actually (the explanation of the term "limited omniscient" narrator was a seperate, though related affair). No, I haven't forgotten about it, but it's been on my back burner, because of circumstances at the time and it's extraordinarily daunting length. I will try very, very hard to get myself in gear to compose and post it. No one would be more annoyed than I if I were to bring it up and then never actually fully explain it. But I also refuse to make promises, lest I should be hit by a bus tomorrow or something. Second, I wrote this in response to Cindy's post earlier about cases of "deus ex machina". It's kind of crap, but just barely high enough above the line of still postable crap vs. crap that should never see the light of day. So I'm putting it up for anyone who cares. It's interesting to note that I took a much more limited (and probably incorrect) view of what qualified as "deus ex machina" than some others, except perhaps Susan Hall, who gave only the historical, initial meaning. This could be the fodder for a fascinating analysis of how terminology broadens in meaning the more it is applied by the general populace. ********** Reviewing Possible Instances of "Deus Ex Machina": The Luke Verdict with your host, Professor . . . Luke ***** Welcome, class! We seem to be entering into a bit of a classification dilemma on which events in the Potterverse are examples of "deus ex machina". As I have no authority on this subject whatsoever, I was naturally deemed the right man for the job to sort it out. What follows are my totally non-accredited opinions on the subject, for your perusal and consideration, which I will present with as much bombast and self-assurance as possible to allay any concerns that might be present that I have no idea what I am talking about. Now then, let us begin. The following shall serve as our criteria for a "deus ex machina". Though debatable, they shall not be debated here, as that would serve to portray me as a doddering old fool rather than the streaming font of wisdom I fail to purport to be. 1) The hero must be in a situation of Immediate, Impending Doom (tm). Not just danger, and not just in the relatively near future, but a situation in which, if even a couple more seconds were allowed to elapse without intervention, our hero would perish. 2) The hero must not be able to save himself from the aforementioned Immediate, Impending Doom (tm), because the situation he has found himself in is so dire, that it would be beyond his maximum capacity to do so. 3) The salvation must ultimately come by an external force or third party that, up until the moment of intervention, was in no way involved in the immediate conflict. Now then, our cases for consideration, one by one (borrowed from our very own student Cindy's list and expanded upon): *** Case 1--The centaur's rescue of Harry from the Forbidden Forest. Criterion 1: Not fulfilled. Harry, though undoubtedly in danger from Quirrel/Voldemort on a slightly elongated timespan, was not at that precise moment in danger of death at the hands of Voldemort. He was saved long before Voldemort had even begun to turn on him. Criterion 2: Neither fulfilled nor cleanly debunked. Harry's ability to defend himself (though likely small) was as yet unknown, because his defenses had not yet required testing in that circumstance. Summation of Criteria 1 and 2: There was, as yet, no direct conflict in existence between Harry and Quirrel/Voldemort, though one would soon have resulted. Criterion 3: Fulfilled, but immaterial as criteria 1 and 2 are not met. The Luke Verdict: Not a "deus ex machina" case. *** Case 2--Dumbledore's rescue of Harry from Quirrel/Voldemort at the end of PS/SS Criterion 1: Fulfilled. At the time of rescue by the third party, Harry was being attacked, at risk to his own life, by Quirrel/Voldemort. Criterion 2: Fulfilled. Harry, though acting at maximum capacity by fighting back with Quirrel/Voldemort's inability to touch him, would not be able to continue such tactics forever. His ability to save himself was, therefore, non-existant to our best knowledge. Criterion 3: Fulfilled. Though Dumbledore is of course engaged in conflict with Voldemort in a grander scale throughout the series, he was not part of that particular instance of conflict between Harry and Quirrel/Voldemort up until the time of his intervention. The Luke Verdict: A reasonable case of "deus ex machina", at least in the more modern sense of the term. *** Case 3--The Flying Ford Anglia's rescue of Harry, Ron and Fang from the acromantulae Criterion 1: Fulfilled. All were in danger of being eaten and their struggle to avoid being eaten had begun. (It is not so much a matter of how far away they are from an acromantula's mouth that determines the Immediate, Impending Doom (tm) criterion as it is whether or not a conflict is already engaged. In this case it was, in the centaur case, it was not.) Criterion 2: Fulfilled. Neither Harry, Ron, nor Fang were in a position to save themselves or the others; they were essentially immobilized and helpless. Criterion 3: Fulfilled with honors! The Flying Ford Anglia was not only previously a non-factor in the conflict, but in fact has no credible explanation for popping up out of nowhere. Hence this case gets extra credit for appealing to criterion 3 above and beyond the call of duty. The Luke Verdict: A very good case of "deus ex machina" to my mind, in its clear devotion to fulfilling criterion 3 to such a stunning degree that it strikes the reader as particularly contrived, solely to save the hero from an unwinnable situation by use of an otherwise rather irrelevant "character". *** Case 4--Fawkes to the rescue of Harry at the end of COS This is so complex, it requires sub-cases: --- Sub-Case 1--Fawkes's initial appearance and providing Harry with the Sorting Hat Criterion 1: Not fulfilled. At this time, Riddle is still conversing with Harry and has not yet begun any sort of attack. Criterion 2: Not fulfilled. Not only is there as yet no danger, but the Sorting Hat with which Harry is provided still must be used *by him* hence he is still required to act at maximum capacity in his resourcefulness of finding a use for it. Criterion 3: Fulfilled in terms of the third party not being previously involved in the conflict, but unfulfilled in terms of salvation, because ultimately, as in some of the later sub-cases, Harry saves himself. The Luke Verdict: Obviously not "deus ex machina" at all. --- Sub-Case 2--Fawkes's direct attack upon the basilisk Criterion 1: Fulfilled. Harry has tripped and the basilisk is merely feet away from him and the kill. Criterion 2: Presumably fulfilled. Harry at this point has exhausted his maximum capacity unless his recovery time is far greater than we are aware. Criterion 3: Debatable. Fawkes, up until this point, has not acted in the conflict, but he was already present in the situation long prior. If this was another person (i.e. Ron) it is my belief that we would instantly expect him to help out--the fact that it is an animal makes no difference. Hence, Fawkes was simply acting out of his own maximum capacity in a conflict that he was already arguably engaged in with Harry. This is comparable to the way that both Riddle and the basilisk are engaged in the conflict: though at the moment only the basilisk is acting, Riddle is no less a part of the existing conflict. The Luke Verdict: Debatable. If we could take just this incident by itself, I'd say, perhaps yes it could be a "deus ex machina" case. But in the grander scheme of things, which I have not yet discussed, no, it's not. --- Sub-Case 3--Fawkes's indirect provision of Harry with Godric's sword via the Sorting Hat Rather than do criteria, I will just say that this can be ruled out straight away; not only because Fawkes is only indirectly responsible, but because even if you view this from the perspective of the Sorting Hat as the third party intervention, Harry is still, when all is said and done, the one who makes use of the sword and therefore saves himself. There is nothing about receiving help from a third party that is inherently "deus ex machina". --- Sub-Case 4--Fawkes's tears healing Harry's wound Criterion 1: Fulfilled. Harry was otherwise near death, or at least, we assume from his beginning to go unconcious. Citerion 2: Fulfilled. Harry lacked a first aid kit. Let this be a lesson to any of my more adventurous students to always keep one handy when battling villainous diaries and their petrifying pets. Criterion 3: Almost fulfilled, except for the fact that technically Fawkes was already in involved in the conflict. The Luke Verdict: By itself this would almost be "deus ex machina", but in the grander scheme it's not. --- The Grander Scheme (What You've All Been Waiting For)--The cumulative efforts of Fawkes at the end of COS The Luke Verdict: The fact that the two main conflicts here (Harry vs. Riddle and Harry vs. the basilisk) were ultimately solved by Harry himself means that, regardless of whatever Fawkes may have done to help, the entire scenario on the whole cannot be viewed as a case of "deus ex machina", regardless of how you view each particular sub-case. *** Case 5--The arrival of the Knight Bus Criterion 1: Not fulfilled. Harry is not yet facing Immediate, Impending Doom (tm). BTW, this is not just because the reader does not yet know that the black thing he saw is not dangerous. It's because the black thing hasn't done anything yet. Even if it were Voldemort, his current innaction would invalidate criterion 1. Criterion 2: Neither fulfilled nor cleanly debunked. We don't know if Harry could have protected himself from this perceived danger. Criterion 3: Fulfilled, but nevertheless irrelevant given the unfulfilled nature of the first two criteria. The Luke Verdict: Another failure against the "deus ex machina" test. Or rather, a success, for those of us who enjoy our literature more contrivance-free. *** Case 6--Professor Lupin rescuing Harry from the dementor on the train Criterion 1: Not quite fulfilled, but arguable. Despite the unpleasantness of the situation, Harry is not in physical danger from the dementor. Criterion 2: Fulfilled. Harry is too incapacitated to assist himself. Criterion 3: Not fulfilled. Since there was no existing conflict between Harry and the dementor (conflict requires effort on both sides and Harry has done nothing to fight the dementor) means that Lupin was starting his own conflict with the dementor not intervening into Harry's. And Lupin was already present anyway, so he was only acting out of his maximum capacity and assisting as one would expect. The Luke Verdict: Not a case of "deus ex machina". *** Case 7--Moody's rescue of Harry from Snape and Filch when his foot is caught in the stair Criterion 1: I'm going to recant a small amount of my original criteria proposal and go ahead and give the nod to this one as fulfilled. Why? Not because Harry is facing Immediate, Impending Doom (tm), but because clearly Immediate, Impending Doom (tm) or physical danger of any sort was a non-factor in this particular conflict in the first place. It's really not the same kind of conflict as some of the other examples, but still a good "deus ex machina" case study. Criterion 2: Not fulfilled, as many HP4GUers have pointed out, in that Harry could have summoned the Marauder's Map. But since it's supposedly fulfilled, let's be agreeable and assume that. Criterion 3: Fulfilled. Moody arrives just in time to prevent Harry's discovery, having no previous involvement in the conflict. The Luke Verdict: Perhaps a case of "deus ex machina", but one that is actually a non-contrived use of it, if such a thing is possible (which maybe it isn't, hence, maybe it's not "deus ex machina"). It may appear contrived at first reading, but Moody has a very good reason to show up, it turns out, once we realize later in the book that he is in fact the Crouch that was snooping around just a while ago in Snape's office. This whole scene is quite brilliant second-time foreshadowing actually--far from contrived. *** (obnoxious electronic bell clangs loudly) Alright, class, that's sufficient for today (and the rest of your lives, no doubt). Be sure to have your essays on "your least favorite way that Luke's posts are excessively verbose and exceedingly pointless" on my desk at 10 A.M. tomorrow! -Luke From joym999 at aol.com Tue Oct 2 02:14:40 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 02:14:40 -0000 Subject: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <20011001230159.56069.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pb7ug+ma59@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26986 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > I would speculate there are several schools in the > United States, There was quite a bit of speculation on this topic early last year, sometime before GoF came out IIRC. We postulated several American schools, including "New Hogwarts" and "Nouveaubatons," schools on the west coast, Texas, etc. There was also some speculation of a Diagon Alley-type shopping street somewhere in NYC. I remember theorizing that the entrance was behind one of those ubiquitous, anonymous Blarney Stone bars. I like to picture the U.S. Ministry of Magic as having its headquarters in Salem, myself. --Joywitch From catlady at wicca.net Tue Oct 2 02:28:26 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 02:28:26 -0000 Subject: Let's Exchange Halloween Greetings Message-ID: <9pb8oa+n3k7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26987 I have been inspired by something Ebony said in HPfGU-OT last summer. Halloween is a BIG holiday in the Potterverse. We can acknowledge it with exchanging Halloween cards, I mean Owls, I mean via Snail Mail rather than Owl Post. Everyone who wants to participate can send their Snail Mail address and e-mail address to me catlady @ wicca.net and I will put all the Snail Mail addresses on a list and on October EIGHTH I will e-mail the list to everyone on it, and then we can all rush to the Post Office (or bank or ATM machine or supermarket) to buy Snail Mail stamps for the cards that each person on the list will send to each other person on the list. There are only 17 people on the list so far, so the postage shouldn't be TOO expensive, and anyone who has more time than money can save the latter by making their own cards and envelopes out of the free resource known as junk mail. ------------------------------------------------------------------ /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From john at walton.to Tue Oct 2 02:34:14 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 03:34:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Let's Exchange Halloween Greetings In-Reply-To: <9pb8oa+n3k7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 26988 Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote: > We can acknowledge it with exchanging Halloween cards, I mean Owls, I > mean via Snail Mail rather than Owl Post. Meow! Great plan! And may I suggest that we use Harry-style addresses -- for instance: John Walton The Room Which Used To Be A Sitting-Room and so on and so forth ad nauseum ad infinitum 31479 --John ____________________________________________ There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them. --'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone' by JK Rowling John Walton -- john at walton.to ____________________________________________ From catlady at wicca.net Tue Oct 2 02:55:01 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 02:55:01 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Flowery Pink Umbrella In-Reply-To: <9papkj+bovr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pbaa5+tg8m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26989 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > He sees the destruction "Sirius" has caused, and finds Peter's > clothing on the ground. In the clothing is a wand. Stunned by the > apparent evil nature of a person he trusted (Sirius), he filches > the wand to protect himself. Telling himself that Peter won't be > able to use it any more, Hagrid hides the wand in an "umbrella" and > (along with a learn-at-home kit) practices in secret. As far as I know, this is a new and original suggestion. I can't think of any objection to it. Hagrid is able to do magic with his umbrella, such as making the boat from the Dursleys' hide-out island propel itself, and it seems like Hagrid and Peter are such very different personalities that it seems unlikely that one could get good results from the other's wand, but it also seems unlikely that one could get good results from a wand which had been snapped in two. From analplardbottom at aol.com Tue Oct 2 02:59:43 2001 From: analplardbottom at aol.com (analplardbottom at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:59:43 EDT Subject: Rebuttal of specious "Deus ex Machina" claims Message-ID: <119.57bcfdc.28ea879f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26990 caliburncy at yahoo.com wrote: > Case 2--Dumbledore's rescue of Harry from Quirrel/Voldemort at the end > of PS/SS > > Criterion 3: Fulfilled. Though Dumbledore is of course engaged in > conflict with Voldemort in a grander scale throughout the series, he > was not part of that particular instance of conflict between Harry and > Quirrel/Voldemort up until the time of his intervention. > > The Luke Verdict: A reasonable case of "deus ex machina", at least in > the more modern sense of the term. 'Zounds, nay and forsooth! While lexically loquacious, grandiloquent even, the logical reasoning behind Case 2 (Dumbledore v. Quirrell/HWMNBN) is flawed. A perfectly logical explanation is given by the author -- upon Dumbledore's arrival in London, it is entirely plausible that the revered Headmaster was alerted to the existence of villainy at Hogwarts by the fact that nobody at the Ministry of Magic was ready to greet him. As such, it is further plausible that said Headmaster immediately returned to Hogwarts with all possible speed, perhaps by Floo Network or Apparition to just outside the school grounds. I have the honour to be, gentlebeings, your ever ob'd't serv't, Anal P. Lardbottom Centaur-Wizard Ombudsman Centaur Liaison Office Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures (Beast Division) Ministry of Magic 2b Ayne Alley London IM2 0DD anal.lardbottom at clo.drcmc.mom.gov.uk AnalPLardbottom at aol.com From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 2 03:03:32 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 22:03:32 -0500 Subject: Praise for Luke's Deus Ex Machina -- Sirius as Father Figure -- Krum/Hermione Message-ID: <3BB92E84.1030809@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 26991 Hi -- I have about a billion posts in my HP4GU inbox that I wanted to comment on, but you'll be happy to know that I'll confine remarks to just a handful of recent things. :--) DEUS EX MACHINA -- If Luke doesn't have L.O.O.N. membership based on anything else he's said in the last few months, I hereby nominate his post on Deus Ex Machina of this evening as grounds enough for him to be a L.O.O.N.! :--) Nice job, Luke. I'm very impressed. I especially liked the logical points that you made for the sub-cases of Fawkes ... that's the one that always bothered me on some level (yeah, more than the Flying Ford Anglia one you are bothered by). You've convinced me that Fawkes, overall, is not a deus ex machina. I do, however, still want to know *how* Fawkes got into the Chamber of Secrets without passing Ron. SIRIUS & HARRY -- I agree with Marianne that JKR really needs to show more day-to-day, no immediacy of life-threating danger to either of them interaction between Sirius & Harry. But, I do note that *if* they had this type of interaction, it would not be realistic for Harry *not* to ask alot of questions (or even a few questions) that JKR doesn't want Harry (or the readers) to know the answers to quite yet. I think that this is why they will continue to interact sporadically & at a distance for at least another book (and, yes, I refuse to assume anything other than that Sirius will be with us all at the end of Book 7!). KRUM/HERMIONE -- David said: > She is not the type, IMO, either > to toy with someone (despite Rita!) she does not care about, nor to > settle for second best. But Krum is definitely more than just a one- > off date (note modish US expression) for the ball. Hmmm ... I've never heard the expression one-off date. I must be hopelessly old. Oh well. Anyway ... why do you believe that Krum is definitely more than just a date to the Yule Ball *as far as Hermione* is concerned. We do know that *she* is more than just a Yule Ball date as far as Krum is concerned (2nd Task, confrontation of Harry regarding the fact that Hermione talks about him (Harry) all the time, and the invitation to Bulgaria). But, I'd be curious to know why you believe that he means more to her than that. My perception has always been that she liked the attention, but that she was uncomfortable with the extent of his feelings for her. She is spending time with him post-Ball -- we do know that as there's no other explanation for why he would confront Harry with "Herm-own-ninny talks about you all the time." But, she could just be hanging out with him as a pal for all we know. Or, maybe he pesters her at the Library & she was trying to get rid of him by talking Harry up. > > The explanation has to be that at the time of the ball no-one else is > in the frame for her, and she happily accepts his invitation. Well, if you mean, she figured no one else that she might prefer over Krum was going to ask her, then I agree. If you're saying she had no feelings for anyone else & so happily accepted Krum's invite, I disagree. We can't surmise that she definitely has no feelings for any other boy at that point. > > She spends time with Krum, as he famously mentions that she talks a > lot about Harry (what this means about H, H and R would take too long > to go into here - another post for another time), so I find it hard > to believe she is pining for either of the other boys. Yes, some > girls might seek solace in a Krum-figure as a way of running away > from their true feelings, but I think that would be out of character > for Hermione. Not if she's just being friendly with him. We don't know the true nature of their interactions, so it's hard to say for sure. Having been a teenage girl before, I can assure you also that it's completely possible to pine away horribly for someone on the inside & there not be any outward trace of this. :--) > Anyway, this is all rambly stuff not getting anywhere much except to > say that the existence of her relationship with Krum over much of the > school year implies that she has no serious intentions towards anyone > else at this stage. Again, I disagree. *If* she has romantic feelings for either Harry or Ron (or both!), she's probably astute enough to realize that *that* was not the time to try & play her cards. Why would she try to come clean about her feelings, knowing that neither of those boys had the maturity yet to handle any sort of romantic relationship (let alone one of a serious nature)? She wouldn't want to jeopardize her friendship with either of them or within the Trio as a whole either. So, my guess is she just enjoyed Krum's attentions somewhat but kept him at bay. But, whether she had zero interest in any other boy at Hogwarts at that stage, simply by virtue of her quasi-romantic relationship with Viktor Krum, is impossible to say. IMO. :--) Penny From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 2 03:07:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 03:07:57 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <9pb7if+5g8q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pbb2d+ao6h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26992 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > It was the Authorial Theory of Misinformation, actually (the > explanation of the term "limited omniscient" narrator was a seperate, > though related affair). No, I haven't forgotten about it, but it's > been on my back burner, because of circumstances at the time and it's > extraordinarily daunting length. I will try very, very hard to get > myself in gear to compose and post it. No one would be more annoyed > than I if I were to bring it up and then never actually fully explain > it. But I also refuse to make promises, lest I should be hit by a bus > tomorrow or something. > That's OK, Luke. If you don't get around doing a piece on Authorial Theory of Misinformation, why, I'll have a go, and the result will be . . . well, completely wrong. There. That ought to motivate you. OK. Now I'll take the exam, using Dumbledore saving Harry from 50 foot fall off of his broom. First Criterion -- Immediate, Impending Doom (tm): Yes, Harry would suffer life threatening injuries had he fallen from his broom from this height. Even if the ground were really, really muddy. Second Criterion -- Hero can't save himself: True, as he's unconscious, or nearly so. Third Criterion -- Salvation through an external force: Fulfilled, as we weren't even told Dumbledore was at the match until he rushed forward to save Harry. It was an incomplete save, however, as Harry still landed in the hospital. So then, for extra credit, why does JKR write this scene to have Dumbledore save the day like this? Surely she knows that she will be criticized for a contrived rescue like this. Why not just have Harry fall from a lower height, get hurt, and get mended? Or just have someone else do the rescue (Madam Hooch?) or establish Dumbledore's presence for some valid purpose? Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 2 03:18:35 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 03:18:35 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Flowery Pink Umbrella In-Reply-To: <9pbaa5+tg8m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pbbmb+a4p4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26993 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > > > He sees the destruction "Sirius" has caused, and finds Peter's > > clothing on the ground. In the clothing is a wand. Stunned by the > > apparent evil nature of a person he trusted (Sirius), he filches > > the wand to protect himself. Telling himself that Peter won't be > > able to use it any more, Hagrid hides the wand in an "umbrella" and > > (along with a learn-at-home kit) practices in secret. > Rita wrote: > As far as I know, this is a new and original suggestion. I can't > think of any objection to it. Hagrid is able to do magic with his > umbrella, such as making the boat from the Dursleys' hide-out island > propel itself, and it seems like Hagrid and Peter are such very > different personalities that it seems unlikely that one could get > good results from the other's wand, but it also seems unlikely that > one could get good results from a wand which had been snapped in two. Let me see if I understand this correctly. Is the idea that Hagrid went to the scene after Peter blew up the street, found Peter's wand in Peter's bloody clothing, and filched it? I don't recall that we were told that Hagrid went to the site of the "duel" between Pettigrew and Black. (Did I miss this?) I thought he took Harry from Godric's Hollow and did whatever Dumbledore wanted. I don't think he would make a pit stop at a duel along the way or deviate from Dumbledore's instructions, and it is unclear that Hagrid would have any way to find Black and Pettigrew. I like creative theories, though, so set me straight if I'm wrong. Cindy From usergoogol at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 21:04:25 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 21:04:25 -0000 Subject: A question to ponder (Dumbledore) In-Reply-To: <9pajmt+p2lf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9palop+ok39@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26994 > Sorry, I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I am thinking that > many years ago, before Voldemort's downfall, perhaps Professor > Trelawney made a prediction about the events of Godric's Hollow, e.g. > that James and Lily would have a son who would defeat the Greatest > Dark Wizard Who Ever Lived, etc. > > I don't know if we are told how long Professor Trelawney has been > teaching at Hogwarts, though. I know that in PoA, McGonnagal tells > us that Trelawney has predicted the death of a student annually for > as long as she has taught at Hogwarts, but I can't pin down the dates. > > Cindy Hmm... I think that is quite logical. Not quite yet canonical, but logical none the less. From catlady at wicca.net Tue Oct 2 03:22:45 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 03:22:45 -0000 Subject: JKR's Point of View In-Reply-To: <9pb1f2+7fde@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pbbu5+kt34@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26995 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > I think she can still tell the majority of the story through > Harry's eyes. I'm not sure the story would be as effective if we > were to know what is happening within the DE camp. There would > be fewer surprises for the reader, Such as the surprise when we find out that a character whom we trusted was actually a DE agent whom we would have seen attending the DE meetings, or at least heard being discussed at them. And the surprise when a loathsome evil character who is behaving in a blatantly secretive way turns out NOT to be a DE but to have some altogether unrelated secret. From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 03:30:37 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG) In-Reply-To: <9pag10+dhir@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011002033037.15539.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26996 There has been talk that the book will come out in feb of '02, and if it does, then it will only be a few months, not 10!!! Hope so! Laura H. Waid animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com or lhickman at home.com > > > Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another > 10 months for > OoF) > > > > I hope it is no MORE that 10 months. > > > > -Peter > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 03:43:50 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's Point of View In-Reply-To: <9pbbu5+kt34@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011002034350.18369.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26997 I believe that between letters and magical devices, and of course dreams, etc... we will learn what we have to along with Harry. Plus, part of the fun of the books is to figure out what is going to happen then find out that we were all wrong, or if we are really stretching our ideas, we might be somewhat close to JKR's ideas! However, don't forget JKR does give us other info when needed even if Harry doesn't see it with his own eyes, read about it or dream it (and if it is a dream, he doesn't always remember the dream, but we reader does remember it, plus we can always re-read it over and over again) Can't wait to read it though!!!!! Talk that it may come out in Feb '02... but I doubt it!!! :( :( Problaby next July....!!!!! Happy October.... that much closer to the new book!!! Happy (soon to be) Halloween!!!!!!! Laura __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From devika261 at aol.com Tue Oct 2 04:34:04 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:34:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Fawkes got into the Chamber Message-ID: <21.11fde527.28ea9dbd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26998 In a message dated Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:06:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Penny & Bryce writes: I do, however, still > want to know *how* Fawkes got into the Chamber of Secrets without > passing Ron. IIRC, Fantastic Beasts says that phoenixes can disappear from one place and reappear in another instantly (like Apparating, I assume). I'm pretty sure that's what the book said, although it might have been the dodo(or it could have been both). If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. I refuse to have any of my HP books here with me at school, as much as it pains me, because I'd never get any studying done with them around, so I'll have to wait until Thanksgiving break to read them. Until then, I'll just have to rely on my memory...which, IMNSHO, is pretty good when it comes to Harry Potter , but certainly not perfect :) Devika, who should be reading biophysics, not email, right about now From Tamar2000 at mailandnews.com Tue Oct 2 04:47:41 2001 From: Tamar2000 at mailandnews.com (Shannon) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:47:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is your favorite bit player (and why)? Message-ID: <3BDFCF50@MailAndNews.com> No: HPFGUIDX 26999 >===== Original Message From blpurdom at yahoo.com ===== >I would have to say Lee Jordan purely for his Quidditch commentary. Oh, definitely...And anybody that consistently hangs out with Fred and George has to be cool...(The twins being my absolute favorite characters ;)) I also liked Archie in his flowered nightdress. I admit I was a little surprised that JKR mentioned air circulating in a man's privates in a children's book, but for a bit character, I got quite a mental picture. I don't know if you'd call 'em bit characters, but my favorites happen to be Lavender Brown and Parvati Patil. Mostly this is because I know these girls. I went to school with them! We called them the "preppies". :) They're characters that I'm sure kids can identify with (giggling, ditzy girls), and a nice contrast from the studious Hermione or the klutzy Neville. OK, there was my knut's worth. (BTW, I'm new to the list, though I've been subscribed under a different email address.) Shannon Wise saying of the week: "There are basically three kinds of people in the world: those who can count, and those who can't." From Tamar2000 at mailandnews.com Tue Oct 2 05:13:08 2001 From: Tamar2000 at mailandnews.com (Shannon) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 01:13:08 -0400 Subject: Schedules at Hogwarts Message-ID: <3BE01E7E@MailAndNews.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27000 Hello again, I don't have a clue whether or not this has been speculated about anyplace, so I'll ask the question. How many classes a day would a typical Hogwarts teacher have to teach? For example, I know that Harry et. al. have double Potions and Care of Magical Creatures with the Slytherins, and they have Herbology with the Hufflepuffs. But what about Defense against the Dark Arts? How does that work? (That's the one I'm interested in...my fanfic--the first one I've ever tried to write--has as its protagonist one of the many Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers at Hogwarts...) As I see it, the teacher would ultimately have to teach something like 28 classes...there are, after all, four Houses, and I assume that students have to take Defense Against the Dark Arts all seven years of school, much like Herbology and Potions...So do the Gryffindors have to double up to take that class, too, or does the teacher have to work out some odd schedule? OK, I'll stop rambling now. ;) Thanks in advance for the help. Shannon Wise saying of the week: "There are basically three kinds of people in the world: those who can count, and those who can't." From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 1 12:48:52 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 1 Oct 2001 12:48:52 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1001940532.128.42706.c1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27001 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Which Ravenclaw girl of Harry's year will be prefect? o Mandy Brocklehurst o Morag MacDougal o ______ Moon o ______ Nott o Padma Patil o Sally-Anne Perks o Lisa Turpin o None of the above To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Oct 2 05:37:03 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 05:37:03 -0000 Subject: Hallo again from Vienna!! (OT, but simply needed to write it) Message-ID: <9pbjpv+sb6p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27002 Hi, everybody, I know this is more than slightly OT, but maybe for this one single time the admins will forgive me After 3 weeks of forced lurkdom I'm so enthusiastic about being back with all of you! From 10 September onwards, I had to organize the moving of the Austrian cultural Institute into its new premises, help the Consulate General move into the same premises which the two institutions are now sharing, and finally, when everything was completed, I had to move my own household from Milan back to Vienna. And here I am now, back to work at the ministry (sadly not of magic, but for foreign affairs), trying to re-adjust to life in Austria- hopefully I'll succeed. It's a bit hard, though. So, during those last 3 weeks, I simply didn't have the time to follow the group- imagine what my mailbox looked like, and therefore this morning did the dreadful deed: I cancelled all the messages, as it would have been impossible to catch up. Anyway, now I'm back with all of you, looking forward to participating again- so at least something I enjoyed in Milan has been transferred to Vienna. Hopefully it won't create more, but help to overcome nostalgia. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 From joyw at gwu.edu Mon Oct 1 14:40:18 2001 From: joyw at gwu.edu (- Joy -) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:40:18 -0400 Subject: MOVIE: New Pics on AIM Today Message-ID: <009501c14a86$fe4396c0$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27003 There are some great new movie pictures posted on AOL Instant Messenger. Some are duplicates of the poster book, but there's a great one of Harry's cupboard, one of the boa constrictor, and one at Hagrid's hut that I've never seen before. There are also awesome close-ups of each of the major characters. You can download buddy icons with each of the house symbols, too. Not surprising, since AOL is partnered with WB, but still pretty cool. You can download AIM for free at http://www.aol.com/aim/homenew.adp. Then just click on the little Today button at the bottom, and choose "Harry Mania". Enjoy! ~Joy~ http://diluted.org/joy From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 17:57:58 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 17:57:58 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina/Forgetful Characters In-Reply-To: <9p9vtd+cf4f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9paar6+r29j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27004 > Cindy (thinking that Voldemort should buy Palm Pilots for all of the > Death Eaters) BWAHAHAHHA! Sorry, that image is just hilarious. "Now, if you could all HotSync to our EvilOverlordNetwork before you go out..." Welcome to the 21st century, Voldy... From catlady at wicca.net Tue Oct 2 03:05:49 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 03:05:49 -0000 Subject: JKR's Point of View In-Reply-To: <9pb1f2+7fde@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pbaud+ge39@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27005 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > I don't think JKR will have to switch POVs. I think she can still > tell the majority of the story through Harry's eyes. I'm not sure > the story would be as effective if we were to know what is > happening within the DE camp. There would be fewer surprises for > the reader, Such as the surprise when we find out that someone we trusted actually was a DE agent and that some loathsome person who was acting all kinds of secretive actually isn't a DE but has a whole different secret. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Oct 2 08:33:09 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 04:33:09 -0400 Subject: Dementors and Harry Message-ID: <174209DE.35E184A7.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27006 I have been encouraged offlist to post this (don't you hate it when people say that?)... In POA, are the Dementors targeting Harry right from the first encounter on the train? -On the train, Harry feels that it is particularly aware of him. -At the Quidditch match, they are all looking up at him - note Harry is aware of this although their faces are invisible. -By the lake, it's him they try to kiss. In the time turner version of this incident, Harry sees only one Dementor bend over - so it really is only him. Some explanation is suggested in the text: the excitement of the Quidditch match attracts them (Lupin), and at that time, that excitement is centred on Harry. But that's just Lupin's explanation - he could be wrong, or partly wrong. Suppose it's true. Then I think there are three explanations possible. 1) Harry is an especially juicy morsel, perhaps because they sense Lily's love on him. 2) They (possibly secretly) supported Voldemort in the past and they are still angry because of Harry's role in his downfall. 3) They are in contact with Voldemort already, and are attacking Harry as part of his plot - if so, it's lucky for Voldemort that they failed as it would have made rebirthing less special (he would have had to use just any old enemy). We know so little about how the Dementors actually communicate, or their relationship with the MOM, making it difficult to know what they are *supposed* to be doing, from MOM point of view. David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 19:10:41 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 19:10:41 -0000 Subject: Forgetful Characters In-Reply-To: <9p9vtd+cf4f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9paf3i+9s4q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27007 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I am, however, getting weary of HP characters with miseable memories > at crucial moments. I know what you mean, in terms of cumulative effect, but I have comments on some of the specific examples. > Let's see. As someone recently mentioned, we > have: > Voldemort ("Harry's Mother's protection -- I forgot!") > Riddle ("Phoenix tears -- I forgot!") > Riddle (Forgets not to let Harry anywhere near the diary during the > crucial showdown, because if Harry stabs it with a fang, Riddle's a > gonner) All three of these are not so much examples of Voldemort having a poor memory as they are examples of his fatal flaw of conceitedness. He underestimates just about everyone and is very self-assured in his ability to carry out his diabolical ministrations relatively unhindered by what he deems the futile and pathetic abilities of others to get in his way. This is a large part of why he is, in my opinion, such a non-compelling villain and should have had his butt kicked long ago. But your basic point, that Voldemort does not act at the literary concept of maximum capacity is correct. Actually, very few villains (that do not ultimately win) ever do, because if they did act at maximum capacity, they would probably win. So heros often act at maximum capacity and villains just the tiniest bit under that. Unfortunately, our friend You-Know-Who tends to be a bit sub-par on the villain's scale of maximum capacity too. Which is why it bugs people. I should add that, in theory, a villain can act at maximum capacity and still lose. Their maximum capacity *at that moment* just needs to be smaller than the hero's was *at that moment*. This does not imply that the hero should be unbalanced to the villain and generally more capable (that's a very BAD idea for a dramatic story). It means that something in the external circumstances must hinder the villain somehow from having the normally equal amount of maximum capacity as his protagonistic counterpart. > Lupin (a werewolf transformation is painful and the full moon is > coming and I could kill someone if I don't drink my potion, but I > forgot) I can't remember enough of the timeline on this day to say how plausible this would be or not--in fact, I'm not sure enough of it is really given. How late was he on taking his potion when Snape came to bring it to him? Quite a while or just a little bit? Because if he was only slightly late, then it would make enough sense, what with him having just discovered Peter Pettigrew was still alive. As in: he saw Pettigrew around the time he should have been leaving to take the potion. It would then be reasonable enough for thoughts of the Wolfsbane Potion to flee his mind. But if he was supposed to have taken it, say, that afternoon, then yes, there isn't really sufficient cause for him to just forget. > Crouch/Moody (forgets to watch the door or the foe glass) > Crouch/Moody (forgets to take polyjuice potion as often as he should > have) These are the ones that bug me the most, because otherwise throughout the novel, Crouch Jr. always acted at maximum capacity. He is a real "evil genius", moreso than Voldemort seems to be (I have to wonder, if, had he not been effectively taken out of the picture with the Kiss, he might have eventually realized Voldemort was less intelligent than him and overthrown him, taking over as the new leader of the evil forces). So, anyway, it is upsetting for him to overlook stuff like this, when otherwise he is so "together". But again, one can argue that almost all villains must act just the tiniest bit under maximum capacity if the hero is to ultimately triumph. I suppose you could debate the polyjuice potion as not having violated maximum capacity, if you're in the camp that believes Voldemort intended to attack Hogwarts immediately after killing Harry. Then Crouch Jr. didn't forget; he just didn't need to take it because his need for the ruse would be over. But otherwise, it is an oversight on Crouch Jr.'s part. > Cindy (thinking that Voldemort should buy Palm Pilots for all of the > Death Eaters) Right! And then they can forget to check them! Ooh! Something new and different! -Luke From tabouli at unite.com.au Mon Oct 1 09:30:54 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 19:30:54 +1000 Subject: LOLLIPOPS vs LOVESLAVE, English linguistics, Krum, Filch Message-ID: <00bd01c14a5c$28783de0$6c90aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27008 Pippin: > Ahem, who says one can't be a Snape/Lily advocate *and* a vampire brigadier? I am pleased to announce the formation of L.O.V.E.S.L.A.V.E (Leage Of Violently Enamoured Snape/Lily And Vampire Enthusiasts. Membership is free.< Free, huh? Well, if you're gonna be like that... OK, let's be civil here. I suppose one *could* be both a Snape/Lily advocate and a vampire brigadier, but I think the latter somewhat impinges on the clean-cut no-repeats Occam's-razor purity of the former explanation of Snape's behaviour. We've already had a werewolf and several Animagi: the vampire theory is just more of the same (and to be honest, I think Snape has already got enough intrigue about him without having to tip vampiricism into his already overflowing cauldron). So far we *haven't* had a tragic romance in the plot. Sexual jealousy is more than enough to make someone bitter and nasty without having to have a tragic concealed-vampire secret on top of it. Sailors on the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS, unite! Barb: > Ron sometimes affects the same attitudes that Draco Malfoy does, not because he is rich, but because a part of him would like to be.< Mm. Hadn't thought of this. I always assumed that Ron, though less stewed in the juices of wealth than the Malfoys, had the typical attitudes of the insular pure-blood Wizard community, diluted slightly by his father's obsession with Muggles. 4FR: > We envy things that others possess, but can only be jealous regarding things that belong to us. Really? I used to use these words almost interchangeably until I was told that "jealousy" refers specifically to personal, and usually sexual feelings. Envy, on the other hand, I thought referred more to feelings about objects or abstract states. But maybe my source was wrong. Very educational, this list... Amy Z: > She talks quite a bit about Harry's envy of *Dudley*--interesting. A good point. Despite Harry's dislike of Dudley, I suppose we should take as given that on some level he must envy him (be jealous of him?) terribly. Rowena: > I understand once upon a time (c. 800-900) English was much the same (genders, tenses etc.) and we have the Danes to thank for the much easier language we speak today.< I've always wondered about this myself, having grappled with a couple of European languages in my time. Getting almost rid of case was a particularly good idea. Some Asian languages, notably Indonesian, are even more streamlined. A lot of them dispense with the articles "a" and "the", plural forms, and the whole changing verb form (I run, he runs, I ran yesterday, we went running, etc.) bonanza as well. Makes it tricky for them to learn European languages, though. I'm glad I got a good foundation in Indo-European grammar through high school French and studying various other languages (I learnt about case through Japanese lessons, where my language school did an excellent job of explaning it): they certainly didn't teach me English grammar at school, and I might otherwise not know a thing about it. Rita: > 'English is the result of Norman men at arms trying to date Saxon barmaids, and no more legitimate than the other results." I THINK the quote is from L. Sprague deCamp but I can't remember.< A friend once forwarded me a wonderful quote about the English language which went something like "English has not so much borrowed from other languages as pursued other languages up dark alleyways, clubbed them to death, and rifled through their pockets for new vocabulary". Amy Z: >> I like the house-elves story line (not allegory--I don't much like allegories and don't think JKR is writing them) *because* it goes into the complexity of political movements, instead of making them out to be simple Good Folks (Hermione) free Poor Downtrodden Folks (Elves) from Bad Folks (Malfoys, Crouch Sr.) despite Willfully Ignorant Folks (Ron, Hagrid) and Apathetic Folks (Harry). People are frequently afraid of freedom; even the most oppressed are afraid to fly to troubles they know not of. That doesn't mean they are happy the way they are or that the movement to liberate them is wrong--even when it is marred by self-righteousness and paternalism. Or in this case, maternalism.<< Yup, let's dispense with all this gross over-simplification. Thanks JKR. I agree with this, though I don't share Amy Z's allergy to allegory. Mind you, I prefer allegories for general social phenomena (starting a radical political movement) rather than specific historical events (e.g. WW2). On Krum: Rowena: > Nor for that matter would Hermione be attracted to an idiot who isn't even good looking, (she does have a weakness for a pretty face as we see with Lockhart)< David: > Really, there wasn't much to it - just that Hermione would eventually lose interest in him over time. But why can't he repeat her name properly after she says it?< I don't think it's clear from GoF whether Hermione is attracted to Krum, or even that she has a "relationship" with him aside from attending the Ball with him: I thought it was more that she was thrilled by the novelty of the attention he gave her, which can evoke similar behaviour to attraction, especially at 14. Hey, *I* was thrilled at 14 when the first boy ever showed interest in *me* (a girl not dissimilar to Hermione in lots of ways), and did all the blushing business, even though there was no relationship with the boy in question and I didn't find him attractive. I agree that the novelty would probably wear off. As for the name pronunciation bit, as many people have pointed out, a lot of intelligent people have a very bad ear for languages, and names are often particularly tricky. I myself run a workshop (ran one in Hobart last Friday, and one in Melbourne Uni today) focussing exclusively on the structure and pronunciation of Asian names (I cover 10 countries in 3 hours!) which is a bestseller among Australian university admin staff, who often find themselves asking for a student's name 5 times without being able to repeat it back or know how it's spelt because the sound is so alien to them, or being able to tell which bit is the family name and which bit to address the student with, etc.etc. Joywitch: >> As an example, I suspect that if Gilderoy Lockhart were running for MoM, his campaign slogan would be something along the line of: "Vote for Lockhart -- The Only Wizard with a Smile Dazzling Enough to Defeat the Dark Lord!"<< LOL... how can we compete with this? Kelly (re:F.L.I.R.T.I.A.C (Filch's Lover Is Regretting Transformation Into A Cat). >> As much as I love this theory, you've not taken into account two things: 1. Squibs can't do magic at all. 2. Mandrake Juice restores those who are transformed.<< Amy Z: >> All we really know about Squibs is Ron's definition: "Someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magic powers." I think that sounds quick-and-dirty enough to leave some wiggle room; maybe Squibs can have a smidgen of magic. One reason I think so is the Kwikspell course. Surely Muggles can't learn magic from a course? Isn't it geared toward people who are just very bad at magic but not completely without powers? Mandrake juice is a restorative for people who have been transfigured or cursed (CoS 6), but there still might be transformations that are irreversible even with a mandrake potion.<< To Amy Z: my thoughts exactly! Surely Kwikspell would be totally pointless unless Squibs had some rudiment of magic, and remember that any magic one has can spontaneously express itself in moments of great stress. As for Mandrake juice, I don't think we have enough evidence to say that this is some kind of magical cure-all for any shape change problem. After all, Madam Pomfrey didn't use Mandrake juice to fix Hermione's accidental cat transformation, which is, incidentally, an example of how a cat transformation spell gone wrong can be difficult to fix (it took several weeks to fix her in CoS). Who's to say what might happen with an inept but desperate Squib? The other comment I have is this: ssshCLOCK! (Tabouli removes her tongue from her cheek as she polishes her FLIRTIAC badge...) Phew, I've caught up. Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 11:43:42 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 11:43:42 -0000 Subject: Schedules at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <3BE01E7E@MailAndNews.com> Message-ID: <9pc99e+1l4v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27009 Well, it's never said students have Dark Arts [i]every[/i] day, you know. Once a week - approximately 4/day. (including weekends) Twice a week - 8/day. So my guess is that students have Dark Arts once or twice a week - depending on the year they're in. Less time as they advance, I presume. They'll get more and more independent work. A 7th years may have merely time to recieve the subject they're to do an essay on - and return it the next week and get a new subject... So mmm... A schedule: Monday: 6-7 Breakfast. 7-8 Ravenclaw First Years 8-9 Gryffindor First Years 9-10 Slytherin First Years. 10-11 Hufflepuff First Years. 11-13 Lunch 13-14 Ravenclaw Third Years. 14-15 Gryffindor Third Years. 15-16 Slytherin Third Years. 16-17 Hufflepuff Third Years. 17-18 Dinner Tuesday: 6-7 Breakfast 7-8 Ravenclaw Second 8-9 Gryffindor Second 9-10 Slytherin Second 10-11 Hufflepuff Second. 11-13 Lunch 13-17 Fourth Years (An hour each, or doubles or some such) 17-18 Dinner. Wednesday: 6-7 Breakfast Fifth Years Lunch Sixth Years Dinner Thursday: Breakfast Seventh Years Lunch First Years? Free time Dinner Friday: First/Second/Free... Saturday: First/Second(who aren't allowed in Hogsmeade) Sunday: Free... So er... I think there's plenty of time to spend... And it's not needed to end teaching at Dinner, you know, just leave 8hrs for sleep, Lunch doesn't need to take 2 hours i.e. 11:30-12:30... Although, older students for late classes would be preferred - and First/Second Years during the weekend... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Shannon wrote: > Hello again, > I don't have a clue whether or not this has been speculated about anyplace, so > I'll ask the question. > How many classes a day would a typical Hogwarts teacher have to teach? For > example, I know that Harry et. al. have double Potions and Care of Magical > Creatures with the Slytherins, and they have Herbology with the Hufflepuffs. > But what about Defense against the Dark Arts? How does that work? (That's the > one I'm interested in...my fanfic--the first one I've ever tried to write--has > as its protagonist one of the many Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers at > Hogwarts...) > As I see it, the teacher would ultimately have to teach something like 28 > classes...there are, after all, four Houses, and I assume that students have > to take Defense Against the Dark Arts all seven years of school, much like > Herbology and Potions...So do the Gryffindors have to double up to take that > class, too, or does the teacher have to work out some odd schedule? > OK, I'll stop rambling now. ;) > Thanks in advance for the help. > Shannon > > Wise saying of the week: "There are basically three kinds of people in the world: those who can count, and those who can't." From borg3892000 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 18:39:18 2001 From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 18:39:18 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: <9p9qfu+93gd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pad8m+4gt7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27010 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sluther at t... wrote: > what's a kneazle????? > Hmm. *someone* didn't buy "Fantastic Beasts and Where to find them". Tsk tsk. And it was for charity too! Unfortunately, my copy is at home. But I'm not sure I could put the definition up anyway. It's copywritten. (please don't email me telling me not to post it. I'm *not*.) From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 2 12:46:33 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 07:46:33 -0500 Subject: Schedules at Hogwarts; Plugging the FAQs as a Resource References: <3BE01E7E@MailAndNews.com> Message-ID: <3BB9B729.5090903@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27011 Hi -- Shannon, for info on course schedules, you might want to take a look at the Hogwarts FAQ, which can be found here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hogwarts.html It is long, but I've done some scrolling for you. If you scroll down to about Footnote 90, you'll find the information on class schedules. There are links to several old messages with lots of speculation about how course schedules might work. For everyone else, please take note. Lots of our FAQs are up & available for viewing. And, we are working on getting some of the remaining ones completed & uploaded at this time. Here's the URL for the full set (the ones with active links are obviously the ones ready to view at this time): http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ What are these FAQs you ask? We're debating a possible new name for them, since FAQ implies a "question & answer" document. These are more substantive topical essays really. They cover what the group has discussed in the past with respect to a range of HP topics, including the major characters, wands, spells, animal characters, magical creatures, wizarding government, wizarding economy, and oh so much more. Please take a look through them if you haven't already. They are intended to be a resource for our members, so enjoy! Penny From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 12:49:25 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 05:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Fawkes got into the Chamber In-Reply-To: <21.11fde527.28ea9dbd@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011002124925.3015.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27012 First of all good luck studying... and secondly... good job at trying to do school work, but still how can you live without the books!!!! Laura I refuse to have any of my HP books here with me at school, as much as it pains me, because I'd never get any studying done with them around, so I'll have to wait until Thanksgiving break to read them. Until then, I'll just have to rely on my memory...which, IMNSHO, is pretty good when it comes to Harry Potter , but certainly not perfect :) > > Devika, who should be reading biophysics, not email, > right about now > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Mon Oct 1 16:44:41 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:44:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: TriWizard Cup as Portkey Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27013 Ah, I finally have time to reply to this: Cynthia wrote: > I'm still not convinced about the "Voldemort Plans To Storm Hogwarts" > theory. I can't think of a worse time for Voldemort and his 30 Death > Eaters to mount an offensive. There are hundreds of wizards at the > Third Task, including Dumbledore, presumably a few MoM wizards, > Hogwarts Teachers, and "hundreds of students" (many of whom know how > to Stun and Disarm, including Durmstrang students versed in the Dark > Arts). The element of surprise will only take you so far. Without bringing in too much of an analysis of the recent terrorist attacks, what happened at the Pentagon and the WTC has only clarified, for me, the sick manipulation of using one's own Ordinary, Every Day Devices against those who created it. Moody was right on the field - he could have been prepped to take some of Dumbledore's people - perhaps even Dumbledore himself, or Fudge -out as soon as Voldy appeared with Harry's body. And it was night-time, and there would've been chaos. How many students would be able to think clearly enough to react? And Voldy didn't really need to *kill* students - his goals would've been accomplished by a massacre of about a dozen teachers, Fudge and Dumbledore. People would've panicked, possibly jumped from the high-in-the-air stands, trampled fellow students - perhaps some of the children of the Death Eaters would've caught up in the violence. It would've been a horrible and chaotic and destructive night - and all because VOldemort managed to use Albus Dumbledore's portkey against Hogwarts. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 2 14:04:01 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 14:04:01 -0000 Subject: Forgetful Characters/Maximum Capacity In-Reply-To: <9paf3i+9s4q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pchgh+meuh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27014 Cindy wrote: > > I am, however, getting weary of HP characters with miseable memories > > at crucial moments. > Luke wrote: > I know what you mean, in terms of cumulative effect, but I have > comments on some of the specific examples. > I should add that, in theory, a villain can act at maximum capacity > and still lose. Their maximum capacity *at that moment* just needs to > be smaller than the hero's was *at that moment*. This does not imply > that the hero should be unbalanced to the villain and generally more > capable (that's a very BAD idea for a dramatic story). It means that > something in the external circumstances must hinder the villain > somehow from having the normally equal amount of maximum capacity as > his protagonistic counterpart. Luke, thanks again for your thoughts. (Has anyone mentioned that you are really good at this?) I knew Voldemort's lapses were bothering me, but I wasn't entirely sure why (except for a rather smug feeling that an aspirant for Supreme Ruler of the Universe should be at least as smart as I am). What strikes me about your comments on maximum capacity, however, is that there must be at least two ways of having one's villian act at maximum capacity for the majority of the story, and then have him lapse at the crucial time without generating "eye rolls" among readers. One way is to just have him blunder, which is what we see with "Phoenix tears -- I forgot." (We need to think of a catchy name for this type of blunder.) Perhaps the better way, however, is simply to deprive the villian of a critical piece of information. Because the villian does not have this information, his actions make perfect sense based on what he does know. His lack of a complete understanding of the circumstances becomes his downfall, rather than just his poor memory and general lack of Evil Overlord skills. JKR does use this very well in the graveyard scene. We know about the core of Harry's wand, but Voldemort does not. Also clever is the fact that the readers don't have complete information either -- we know about the core of Harry's wand, but we don't know why it matters, and we're not sure what Voldemort knows. So JKR is able to have Voldemort be surprised by Priori Incantatem and lose the duel without having to cry out, "Identical Phoenix tail feathers in my opponent's wand -- I forgot!" Back to maximum capacity. Are there other effective ways of having the villian come up short in a believable way so that the hero's victory isn't contrived? Now as for Lupin, I am pleased to see that you are giving him a pass, as it would pain me to have to call him stupid. You are correct that if Lupin sees dots labeled Harry, Sirius Black and Peter Pettigrew moving toward the Shrieking Shack, he'd have to be a simpering idiot not to hop up and follow along. Now, he does forget to take the map with him, ("I forgot!") particularly because he might need it if he gets to the Shrieking Shack and finds everyone has left. He also forgets to wipe it clean. So I suppose that he's not functioning at maximum capacity, either. A side-effect of chronic wolfsbane potion use, perhaps? > > Crouch/Moody (forgets to watch the door or the foe glass) > > Crouch/Moody (forgets to take polyjuice potion as often as he should > > have) > > These are the ones that bug me the most, because otherwise throughout > the novel, Crouch Jr. always acted at maximum capacity. He is a real > "evil genius", moreso than Voldemort seems to be (I have to wonder, > if, had he not been effectively taken out of the picture with the > Kiss, he might have eventually realized Voldemort was less intelligent > than him and overthrown him, taking over as the new leader of the evil > forces). So, anyway, it is upsetting for him to overlook stuff like > this, when otherwise he is so "together". But again, one can argue > that almost all villains must act just the tiniest bit under maximum > capacity if the hero is to ultimately triumph. > It seems that before I can throw overripe tomatoes at JKR for writing this scene this way, I have to come up with an alternative that would work better. And I just can't think of a good one. Let's say Crouch/Moody does not spirit Harry away to his office at all, and simply starts melting right there on the Quiddich field due to forgetting to take his potion. Dumbledore stuns him and interrogates him. Yawn. Perhaps JKR could omit the Foe Glass entirely, or perhaps Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall can sneak up on Crouch in his office under an invisibility cloak so that the Foe Glass doesn't broadcast their images. That, too, is rather dopey, because the image of the three teachers huddled under an invisibility cloak that they get from God- knows-where is a most unfortunate one. Also, Moody can still see through the door and invisibility cloaks. If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it. Anyway, I was quite disappointed when the Demementor sucked out Crouch's soul. He would have made a great prisoner and foil in future books. And maybe this time he could have had a "real" trial. Such a waste. Cindy (who belatedly realizes that her English Lit classes might have been interesting had she bothered to pay attention) From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 15:07:23 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On Behalf of Lavender and Parvati In-Reply-To: <3BDFCF50@MailAndNews.com> Message-ID: <20011002150723.72314.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27015 Yes they giggle, yes they are taken in by Professor Trelawney *but* when the blast ended Skrewts are rampaging out of control in GF Lavender is one of the students who stays outside to help corral them. Her robes are badly singed and since she and Parvati are usually partners I'd guess Parvati was burned badly enough to have to retreat into Hagrid's hut. Giggly adolescents or not it would seem Lavender at least, (and probably Parvati) has her share of Gryffindor guts. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 15:19:58 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's Flowery Pink Umbrella In-Reply-To: <9pbaa5+tg8m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011002151958.98982.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27016 --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > > > He sees the destruction "Sirius" has caused, and > finds Peter's > > clothing on the ground. In the clothing is a > wand. Stunned by the > > apparent evil nature of a person he trusted > (Sirius), he filches > > the wand to protect himself. Telling himself that > Peter won't be > > able to use it any more, Hagrid hides the wand in > an "umbrella" and > > (along with a learn-at-home kit) practices in > secret. > > As far as I know, this is a new and original > suggestion. I can't > think of any objection to it. I'm afraid I can think of one: Hagrid's guilty glance at his umbrella when Mr. Olivander askes if he *uses* the pieces of his old wand. Nor is there any reason to believe Hagrid was ever anywhere near the scene of Peter's confrontation with Black. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Oct 2 15:22:24 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 11:22:24 -0400 Subject: Authorial Misinformation Message-ID: <5DBF0666.51E4C758.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27017 My formal knowledge of English Literature is zilch, so, as we might say in our corporate sales literature, David brings to the problem a fresh approach uncluttered by preconceptions. So here's an attempt at kick-starting. Rather than attempt abstract definitions, I will suggest some concrete examples to show how I think it works. If Hagrid says that all dark wizards came from Slytherin, we don't have to believe him. He might be mistaken, or prejudiced. If Harry thinks Hermione looks stunning at the ball, we don't have to take that at face value. It's a subjective opinion. If the narrative says that Hermione's teeth got longer, that really happened. If Harry sees that Hermione's teeth have shrunk, that really happened, unless we are in a situation where illusions are known to be a possibility. If debate in the bar at the Hanged Man at Little Hangleton, is reported verbatim, that reportage is factually correct. If Dumbledore says that Lily's sacrifice prevented Quirrell from touching Harry, we tend to believe him, because of his known character and knowledge. However, we realise he might not be telling the whole truth, though he wouldn't tell a partial truth that would mislead. If Snape tells Harry Boomslang skin has been stolen from his office, we evaluate based on Snape's known character. He tends to tell the literal truth, but may be selective to further his own interpretation and purpose. If Harry goes on to jump to conclusions that this refers to the COS incident, that's Harry's responsibility. We don't have to follow him. But JKR doesn't have to actively prevent us, either. I do have a problem that the principles embodied in the above examples don't fully resolve. I will try to post it off separately when I get the chance. Hope that helps. Any comments, Luke? David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 2 17:19:08 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:19:08 -0000 Subject: Dementors and Harry In-Reply-To: <174209DE.35E184A7.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9pcsuc+7s2k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27018 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > > In POA, are the Dementors targeting Harry right from the first encounter on the train? > > > -By the lake, it's him they try to kiss. In the time turner version of this incident, Harry sees only one Dementor bend over - so it really is only him. > > Some explanation is suggested in the text: the excitement of the Quidditch match attracts them (Lupin), and at that time, that excitement is centred on Harry. But that's just Lupin's explanation - he could be wrong, or partly wrong. > > Suppose it's true. Then I think there are three explanations possible. > > 1) Harry is an especially juicy morsel, perhaps because they sense Lily's love on him. > 2) They (possibly secretly) supported Voldemort in the past and they are still angry because of Harry's role in his downfall. > 3) They are in contact with Voldemort already, and are attacking Harry as part of his plot - if so, it's lucky for Voldemort that they failed as it would have made rebirthing less special (he would have had to use just any old enemy). > > We know so little about how the Dementors actually communicate, or their relationship with the MOM, making it difficult to know what they are *supposed* to be doing, from MOM point of view. > I also find Lupin's explanations of why the dementors seem to be giving Harry a hard time to be a little unconvincing. Add in Dumbledore's statement to Fudge that the dementors can't be trusted to guard Voldemort's most dangerous supporters, and Dumbledore's general dislike of Dementors, and I think they have it in for Harry. Going forward, though, I have trouble imagining how JKR is going to continue to have dementors present a threat to Harry, as he can ward off huge numbers of them with a single Patronis. I suppose they will have to suck souls out of minor characters for the remainder of the books. Also, had the dementors succeeded in kissing Harry in PoA, that wouldn't necessarily kill the re-birthing party. Voldemort could still use Harry's blood, because Harry would still be alive. Cindy (wondering how the dementors designated a representative for the honor and immense pleasure of kissing Harry) From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 17:20:27 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:20:27 -0000 Subject: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <9pb7ug+ma59@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pct0r+enhf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27019 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > I like to picture the U.S. Ministry of Magic as > having its headquarters in Salem, myself. Well, I'd like to think that that might be a very large branch, but the U.S. *Department* of Magic would need to be headquartered in the greater Washington, D.C. area. Sure, Salem might be the historical center of the magical arts, but this is the United States, and just as Philadelphia is no longer the capital, so Salem would no longer be the magical center. The existence of the Department in the greater D.C. area is hinted at by the local NBA local teams (Wizards, Mystics), which are clearly just a front for this Department. And, of course, everyone knows that the Capitol and the White House are haunted. Now, of course, day-to-day operations would probably not take place in the District itself. I would presume that just as other Federal agencies and Departments have offices and sites in the Virginia and Maryland, the DoM would be no different. Clearly, the main operations should be located at or near the home of the American master of the macabre and magical, Edgar Allen Poe, up in Baltimore, Maryland, with field offices throughout the U.S. ....Craig :^) From pmkgenesis at msn.com Tue Oct 2 18:03:15 2001 From: pmkgenesis at msn.com (pmkgenesis at msn.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:03:15 -0000 Subject: Dementors and Harry In-Reply-To: <9pcsuc+7s2k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pcvh3+b2jo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27020 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > > > > In POA, are the Dementors targeting Harry right from the first > encounter on the train? > > > > > > > -By the lake, it's him they try to kiss. In the time turner > version of this incident, Harry sees only one Dementor bend over - so > it really is only him. > > > > Some explanation is suggested in the text: the excitement of the > Quidditch match attracts them (Lupin), and at that time, that > excitement is centred on Harry. But that's just Lupin's explanation - > he could be wrong, or partly wrong. > > > > Suppose it's true. Then I think there are three explanations > possible. > > > > 1) Harry is an especially juicy morsel, perhaps because they sense > Lily's love on him. > > 2) They (possibly secretly) supported Voldemort in the past and > they are still angry because of Harry's role in his downfall. > > 3) They are in contact with Voldemort already, and are attacking > Harry as part of his plot - if so, it's lucky for Voldemort that they > failed as it would have made rebirthing less special (he would have > had to use just any old enemy). > > > > We know so little about how the Dementors actually communicate, or > their relationship with the MOM, making it difficult to know what > they are *supposed* to be doing, from MOM point of view. > > > > I also find Lupin's explanations of why the dementors seem to be > giving Harry a hard time to be a little unconvincing. Add in > Dumbledore's statement to Fudge that the dementors can't be trusted > to guard Voldemort's most dangerous supporters, and Dumbledore's > general dislike of Dementors, and I think they have it in for Harry. > > Going forward, though, I have trouble imagining how JKR is going to > continue to have dementors present a threat to Harry, as he can ward > off huge numbers of them with a single Patronis. I suppose they will > have to suck souls out of minor characters for the remainder of the > books. > > Also, had the dementors succeeded in kissing Harry in PoA, that > wouldn't necessarily kill the re-birthing party. Voldemort could > still use Harry's blood, because Harry would still be alive. > > Cindy (wondering how the dementors designated a representative for > the honor and immense pleasure of kissing Harry) This is a possiblilty. As far as the dementors in PoA go, i believe JKR into'd them to in Gof's chapter "Flesh, Blood, and Bone" But, this may be more prevelant in OoP, too. Personally, I think there's unfinisehed business with the dememtors regarding HP due to his parents' past. Lupin's explanations may not jive with you because if he told HP too much, he'd have to explain a lot more than he was willing or able to divulge. (in the case of Black being and still is, a fugitive ...) Anyway, hope this helps. From pbarhug at earthlink.net Tue Oct 2 17:58:45 2001 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:58:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb? References: <9p4utv+huur@eGroups.com> <3154418176.20010929122500@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3BBA0055.3F43ECAA@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27021 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > Hi Amy! > > Saturday, September 29, 2001, 10:03:59 AM, you wrote: > > AZ> Which returns us to a very interesting question: what effect > *does* a > AZ> Boggart have on people? > > If Harry's boggart had been He-Who-Must, then would the boggart-Voldy > been able to Avada Kedavra Harry on the spot?? My 8 year old was wondering about the scope of powers of the Boggart-Dementor, namely:can it perform the Kiss? I would think that because the Boggart is only a facsimile of the real thing, it's scope of powers would be limited. But if not... drpam off to check dark spaces for Boggarts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From redmond_lisa at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 18:20:58 2001 From: redmond_lisa at yahoo.com (lisa palmer) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dementors and Harry,; Ginny In-Reply-To: <9pcsuc+7s2k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011002182058.16587.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27022 dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > In POA, are the Dementors targeting Harry right from the first encounter on the train? > > cynthiaanncoe@ wrote: > I also find Lupin's explanations of why the dementors seem to be giving Harry a hard time to be a little unconvincing. Add in Dumbledore's statement to Fudge that the dementors can't be trusted to guard Voldemort's most dangerous supporters, and Dumbledore's general dislike of Dementors, and I think they have it in for Harry. I don?t remember it reading this way at all. Harry was NOT specifically targeted at the match or on the train, he was just more sensitive to the effects of the Dementors. Harry?s question was why they had such an extreme effect on him compared to the others, nobody else passed out etc, and he was embarresed because he felt weaker and like a wimp. He did not ask why the went after him..because they didn?t. They ?inhaled? the joy from everybody. This is why Lupins explanation makes perfect sense. Harry had a more painful childhood, less joy. In the scene by the lake, I thought they were simply taking out Harry because he was the one trying to fight them, therefore he was an accomplice of the escaped prisoner. I agree it is strange that only one had lowered his hood. Perhaps more would have to kill Hermione and Sirius had not the second Harry come to the rescue? Question: JKR drew attention to Ginny?s reaction from the dementors too. Harry had asked if anybody else passed out or something, and Ron gave a reply that was negative, but mentioned that Ginny was also strongly affected too. So a question is.?was Ginny so white-faced because she was scared for Harry..or is she also strongly affected by the dementors? Do you think that maybe the dementors brought back memories for her (similar to Harry?s reaction) from CoS when she was controlled by Tom Riddle? Another Ginny question: Since I am on Ginny, I have another question. In CoS Ginny sends Harry a singing telegram on Valentine?s day. In it she uses the term ?the Dark Lord?. It seems to me that the only people who refer to Voldemort as Dark Lord are the bad guys, everyone else uses You-Know-Who. This should have been a big hint that Ginny was involved in the bad goings-on when I was reading the book the first time, but I was laughing too hard to notice. Now however, I wonder if this is merely a hint that she was opening the chamber of secrets, or is it a hint of more things to come? What is everyone?s opinion? --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone with Yahoo! by Phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pmkgenesis at msn.com Tue Oct 2 18:41:08 2001 From: pmkgenesis at msn.com (pmkgenesis at msn.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:41:08 -0000 Subject: JKR's Point of View, part two Message-ID: <9pd1o4+mfvp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27023 Hey, everybody, I'm new here, and got a BUNCH of emails from this group, so I'm pretty much up to speed as to the knowledge and civility this group has of the HP books. Thank you all for that. Now, on to what this thread is about. I believe JKR can still tell OoP from HP POV, because Harry is in, unfortunately in my opinion, a very delicate position. After he so willingly "sacrificed" himself in "Flesh, Blood, and Bone" in GoF, I would think he'd be in Dumbledore's camp due to his being so loyal (to Lupin, Dumbledore, Sirius, his folks, the Weasleys, and so forth). Becuase of this, I would think he'd be torn, literally: being part of Voldermort's downfall, thus rendering Dumbledore's camp a victory, but in the end, he, Harry, may have to die as a result. Before doing this, i would think he'd still be able to tell this form his POV, like always. He's loyal to defeat Voldermort, but now that he's got part of Voldermort in him, ... well ... But, it's like Dumbledore said, it's the choices one makes that marks their path and their fate. (Conclusion of Sorcerer's Stone) Anyway, this twist puts HP in a very interesting quandry. Makes for interesting conversation later on in here, doesn't it? :) Missy K, Owless Go, Gryffinor!! From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 18:44:48 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:44:48 -0000 Subject: Info on book 5, true... I doubt it, but I will pass it on... Message-ID: <9pd1v0+6dln@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27024 This afternoon, I was shopping in a nationally chained bookstore (in the U.S.) and I asked the info desk when book 5 is coming out or if they have a tentive date for release? Their answer... I kid you not... Nov of this year. I really doubt it, since all of the other books were pushed a good 2 or 3 months before arriving in stores, but then they told me that their information states maybe date of Nov, but probably more like Jan... so who knows!!! Just thought I'd pass on this bit of info... hope it's helpful! Laura From pmkgenesis at msn.com Tue Oct 2 18:51:58 2001 From: pmkgenesis at msn.com (pmkgenesis at msn.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:51:58 -0000 Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG) In-Reply-To: <20011002033037.15539.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pd2ce+i2ff@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27025 There has been talk that the book will come out in feb > of '02, and if it does, then it will only be a few > months, not 10!!! > > Hope so! I toitally agree with you; however, I understand it to be JK's pub house didn't give her a deadline, and she's not working on it at the moment. This news was found in the leaky couldron last month in their archives. Such as it is, Amazon.com says 2/2002, as well. Scholastic is zippin' their lips, and I've heard nothing on this since. As far as I know, Paul Harvey has been really great with news updates. And I got a credit card just for the purpose of gettin' this book online! If I could wait in line at a bookstore near us to get this book, and we coud HP and life gab all we wanted, that'd be great! Missy K, Owless (an owl hostess) Go, Gryffindor!! From kidzero7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 19:33:47 2001 From: kidzero7 at hotmail.com (kidzero7 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 19:33:47 -0000 Subject: Past and Present Parallels Message-ID: <9pd4qr+jnvq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27026 (first time poster and please excuse any inaccuracies because I'm at work and without the books for references) I don't know if this has been discussed, but it could very well give us some insight into future books. While reading the books, I felt a strong sense of parallel between the past Hogwarts kids (James, Sirius, etc) and the present Hogwarts kids (Harry, Ron, etc). If anything, JK may show us that history repeats itself. That some of the themes of the past will repeat in the present. One example: Draco Malfoy = Snape I wouldn't be surprised to see that Draco Malfoy isn't such a bad kid afterall. That he is simply 'evil' because he was raised that way and he is jealous of Harry and his friends. I wouldn't be surprised if Harry saves his life. Or that Malfoy remains somewhat mean-spirited, but works for the good side in the future. All this just like Snape. Other parallels: Ron = Sirius Black Neville = Peter Pettigrew (*cringe*) I also expect Harry and the 'good side' to be betrayed by someone close to them. Someone who is weak or too eager to please a higher power. That person being either Neville or Percy. We'll see. So what do you think? From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET Tue Oct 2 19:33:39 2001 From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:33:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry References: <9pct0r+enhf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <003301c14b79$24a1e400$02851440@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 27027 Ohhh! I like this idea. That means it would be close to me! My daughter is turning 11 in March, maybe she will get her letter then! She's almost as obsessed as her mom! lol Diana > Well, I'd like to think that that might be a very large branch, > but the U.S. *Department* of Magic would need to be headquartered > in the greater Washington, D.C. area. > > Now, of course, day-to-day operations would probably not take place > in the District itself. I would presume that just as other Federal > agencies and Departments have offices and sites in the Virginia and > Maryland, the DoM would be no different. > > Clearly, the main operations should be located at or near the home of > the American master of the macabre and magical, Edgar Allen Poe, > up in Baltimore, Maryland, with field offices throughout the U.S. > > ....Craig :^) > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From avatar7 at uole.com.ve Tue Oct 2 21:17:53 2001 From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:17:53 -0400 Subject: [DESPERATE HELP] Was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <9pb7ug+ma59@eGroups.com> References: <9pb7ug+ma59@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <01100217175303.07433@sysop> No: HPFGUIDX 27028 Greetings, all! Merry Meet! Hakuna Matata! Whatever!. On Date Monday 01 October 2001 10:14, You Wrote: > There was quite a bit of speculation on this topic early last year, > sometime before GoF came out IIRC. We postulated several American... Well, me, as an Hispanic-born, being Spanish my native tongue and English my second one, I am not very good at certain acronyms, and I have read this one several times around here. PLEASE, oh PLEASE, can anybody tell me what does IIRC stands for? :) Absolutely thankful... ------------------------------ Juan Carlos De La Cruz. DeGoPro.com General Manager. SysOp.Tech and Op Dept. IFX Networks Venezuela Profesionnal Musician and Composer. Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw. "Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do here!" -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone From usergoogol at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 21:22:09 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:22:09 -0000 Subject: [DESPERATE HELP] Was: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: American Schools of Witchcraft and In-Reply-To: <01100217175303.07433@sysop> Message-ID: <9pdb61+ovjk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27029 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Juan Carlos De La Cruz wrote: > > Greetings, all! > Merry Meet! > Hakuna Matata! > Whatever!. > > > On Date Monday 01 October 2001 10:14, You Wrote: > > There was quite a bit of speculation on this topic early last year, > > sometime before GoF came out IIRC. We postulated several American... > > Well, me, as an Hispanic-born, being Spanish my native tongue and English > my second one, I am not very good at certain acronyms, and I have read this > one several times around here. > > PLEASE, oh PLEASE, can anybody tell me what does IIRC stands for? :) > > Absolutely thankful... > > ------------------------------ > Juan Carlos De La Cruz. > DeGoPro.com General Manager. > SysOp.Tech and Op Dept. > IFX Networks Venezuela > > Profesionnal Musician and Composer. > Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw. > > "Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do > here!" > -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone If I Remember Correctly... Er, well... If I remember correctly it should be... um. That is, if I remember... OTOH, On the other hand, I am very certian of what the meaning is. IIRC, it means, er... (Caution. The preceeding post was full of a hidden meaning. Hopefully no magic will be nessicary for you to understand it.) From usergoogol at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 21:29:50 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:29:50 -0000 Subject: Schedules at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9pc99e+1l4v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pdbke+45rc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27030 Okay. I'd like to point out that in my infamous... YET-TO-BE-WRITTEN FANFIC! Ahem. I've figured out a lovely system. It doesn't fit with canon, but it does amuse the hell out of me. > Edlem looked at his schedule. Today's schedule seemed simple to > read, but the classes for later days jumped around his page, taking > brief naps during the space for his lunch period, and taking a > brisk jog through the afternoon. Yeah. > > Shannon > > > > Wise saying of the week: "There are basically three kinds of people > in the world: those who can count, and those who can't." UserGoogol: Who doesn't know the MEANING of the word, Off-topic. From john at walton.vu Tue Oct 2 21:35:26 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:35:26 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: [DESPERATE HELP] -- IIRC etc. In-Reply-To: <01100217175303.07433@sysop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27031 Juan Carlos De La Cruz wrote: > PLEASE, oh PLEASE, can anybody tell me what does IIRC stands for? :) As with many other Really Desperate Questions, list-based, netiquette-based or otherwise, you can find the answers in the Admin Files Section, a link to which is appended to the bottom of every single message on HPforGrownups. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ That's why, folks, we say "Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!" Cheers, --John, for the Magical Mod Squad __________________________________ The HPforGrownups Moderator Team MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Please read our Admin Files, particularly the VFAQ and Netiquette files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ From avatar7 at uole.com.ve Tue Oct 2 21:39:05 2001 From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:39:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <20011002015000.61510.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011002015000.61510.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01100217390504.07433@sysop> No: HPFGUIDX 27032 On Date Monday 01 October 2001 09:50, You Wrote: > If Wizarding Americans are anywhere near as mobile > as Muggle Americans I would guess there's been a lot > of cross cultural magical contact. Young American > Witches and Wizards are probably trained in multiple > magical traditions. Which might give them a distinct > edge against the likes of Voldemort who can't even > remember all the ins and outs of his *own* magical > culture! That make me want to put my couple sickles on it. I 've been reading about Magic rught after finishing my 4th HP book, and both them HP Schoolbooks, and I found certain interesting data. When I was about 11, (Not SO many years ago), I starte don my very personal quest for spirituality, and I read about several different cultures and spiritual POV's, name it Mormons, Hebrew, Jehova's witnesses, Krsna's teachings, the very Catholic Church I was baptised in, and the likes... I finally ended up embracing MetaPhysics, under the teachings of writings by the likes of Emmet Fox, and some other Venezuelan authors I would not mind to name right now). By some curious experience, the group we had, in which I was learning and practicing (Which was some sort of a very little Hogwarts school every 2 Sundays in which we had a couple adult groups, a little kids group and a teenagers group, each one with it's own "guide" or teacher, and a "headmaster" for all of them, being the adults group -at least one of them- the more advanced in topics and rituals and experiences... ) dismembered after our "headmaster" had some kind of nervous breakdown and started mixing up things in a way we might call dangerous... (think about HP Meets V Extra-Terrestrial Invasion.. u may figure it out now) I Found myself putting it apart for a long while after this "incident", and remained like that for some years. Then after HP (Which I was very reluctant to read at first stage) I was wondering about Magic itself, and sorted we WERE actually performing some kind of magic itself. What we might call by different names on different tendencies, may be the equivalent of a Spell, even to Pray might be considered so, being that it is the power of our thoughts expressed into our voice which gives that "change" needed (Well, lots of theories about this issue), no matter how do you call it, may it be "Pray", or "Spell", or whatever... But the truth is, we do perform changes in our extra-corporeal structure when we do this sort of things. Spirit, itself. Lately, after reading HP stuff and hungry (as all of us are) for book 5, I started lurking again for more mind food, and a friend of me who is a Wiccan wizard (Or so he says. :) and astrologer, lend me a book about Magic, on it historical and conceptual terms, and I found something very, very interesting I would like to share on this topic... Magic, in the very deep end, is supposed NOT to have a concrete guideline, as it depends on the energy it casts from the one performing it. What is commonly called "The book of shadows" for most wizards, is merely a scrapbook they SHOULD be able to compile on their own, based on their inner experiences, and that MIGHT be based on some other teachings and writings. BUT in the end, each one has and performs his/her special, INNER and very personal kind of magic, whatever this may be... the concept remains as one, a single one. Therefore, a cross cultural contact between magic schools would or would not determine whether a school shapes a pupil or not. Have you noticed how spells can vary from one character to other? (Obviously excepting the "trade mark" ones, as "Crucio" or "Expelliarmus", which seem to have an Author registry. But as one is said at a point... it does NOT really matters whether you pray the "Holy father" pray word by word, or yuo make one of your own as long as you're "talking" the same way to the same "target"...) Then what I figure out Wizardry schools do is to OPEN some kind of portal within the ones which already show some talent to it, in order to develop their INNER potential. The way how to do so might also be unimportant, being that if the pupil is prepared, a cross-cultural contact would only give a POV to share, but not neccesarily change a "School". In other words, the School may be within each one... Pretty long for two sickles, I Guess. ------------------------------ Juan Carlos De La Cruz. DeGoPro.com General Manager. SysOp.Tech and Op Dept. IFX Networks Venezuela Profesionnal Musician and Composer. Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw. "Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do here!" -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 21:49:59 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:49:59 -0000 Subject: LOLLIPOPS vs LOVESLAVE In-Reply-To: <00bd01c14a5c$28783de0$6c90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9pdcq7+esqd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27033 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Pippin: > > Ahem, who says one can't be a Snape/Lily advocate *and* a > vampire brigadier? I am pleased to announce the formation of > L.O.V.E.S.L.A.V.E (Leage Of Violently Enamoured Snape/Lily And > Vampire Enthusiasts. Membership is free.< > > Free, huh? Well, if you're gonna be like that... > >So far we *haven't* had a tragic romance in the plot. Sexual >jealousy is more than enough to make someone bitter and nasty >without having to have a tragic concealed-vampire secret on top of >it. Sailors on the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS, unite! I don't mind a tragic romance BUT.... why does it have to be the ever wonderful Lily? Why not someone else? I said I wasn't going to discuss the Snape/Lily pairing again so I had better stop now . Koinonia Canonite, vampire believer, and forever a proud member of *Snape Didn't Give A Fig About Lily*. From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 21:40:50 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:40:50 -0000 Subject: Wherefore Gryffindor? (was: On Behalf of Lavender and Parvati) In-Reply-To: <20011002150723.72314.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pdc92+s3hd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27034 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > Yes they giggle, yes they are taken in by Professor > Trelawney *but* when the blast ended Skrewts are > rampaging out of control in GF Lavender is one of the > students who stays outside to help corral them. Her > robes are badly singed and since she and Parvati are > usually partners I'd guess Parvati was burned badly > enough to have to retreat into Hagrid's hut. > Giggly adolescents or not it would seem Lavender at > least, (and probably Parvati) has her share of > Gryffindor guts. > I'm glad you mentioned that, because I have been unable to justify in my mind the reason for many of the other Gryffindors to BE Gryffindors. We've had the Neville apologists (and I'm one of them ;) ) explaining why Neville should be a Gryffindor, and there's still, evidently, an ongoing debate about why Hermione is not in Ravenclaw (I think she's where she belongs), but I could not recall something that supported Lavender or Parvati being in Gryffindor until you mentioned the Blast-Ended Skrewts. (Which is still somewhat tenuous, IMHO.) Other Gryffindors seem even less likely: Lee Jordan, Seamus Finnigan, Dean Thomas. I was going to say the Quidditch Chasers, but I suppose a certain amount of physical bravery is required to play this sport (although there are players in all four houses, remember). Seamus, on the other hand, thinks Parvati and her sister are the best-looking girls in his year, but doesn't have the nerve to ask one of them to the ball... Are there any Lee (who I think is hysterical, BTW), Seamus or Dean apologists out there? Why should they be Gryffindors? Is there an even more complelling reason than the Skrewts for Lavender and Parvati being Gryffindors? A reason for the Gryffindor Chasers to be in this house, other than being Chasers? And then there's the Creevey brothers! I'm willing to give most of them the benefit of the doubt if they aren't in Harry's year, because we don't see as much of them. But the others in Harry's year...Okay, convince me... --Barb From john at walton.vu Tue Oct 2 21:57:28 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:57:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wherefore Gryffindor? (was: On Behalf of Lavender and Parvati) In-Reply-To: <9pdc92+s3hd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27035 blpurdom at yahoo.com wrote: > > Are there any Lee (who I think is hysterical, BTW), Seamus or Dean > apologists out there? Lee -- he's brave enough to stand up to McGonagall when match commentating AND has a Big Scary Spider in PS/SS when they're getting on the train. Seamus and Dean are minor characters, but they both seem courageous enough -- I'm sure there are instances of them standing up to Malfoy, Crabbe & Goyle. > Why should they be Gryffindors? Is there an > even more complelling reason than the Skrewts for Lavender and > Parvati being Gryffindors? Yeah. The Divination Darlings are too dumb for Ravenclaw, not crafty enough for Slytherin and not hard-working enough for Hufflepuff. Gryffindor...House Of Beefcake. ::Ravenclawesque grin:: > A reason for the Gryffindor Chasers to be > in this house, other than being Chasers? Hey, any women brave enough to go to a ball with Gred and Forge (sorry Jana...) are Gryffindors in my book. I read them as pretty much female Weasleys, although that may be the fic reader in me. >And then there's the > Creevey brothers! A Convenient Plot Device. --John ____________________________________________ Ravenclaw! '99! So many books, so little time! John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 22:05:08 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:05:08 -0000 Subject: American Magical Government/Schools In-Reply-To: <9pct0r+enhf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pddmk+q98q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27036 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > I like to picture the U.S. Ministry of Magic as > > having its headquarters in Salem, myself. > > Well, I'd like to think that that might be a very large branch, > but the U.S. *Department* of Magic would need to be headquartered > in the greater Washington, D.C. area. > > Sure, Salem might be the historical center of the magical arts, but > this is the United States, and just as Philadelphia is no longer the > capital, so Salem would no longer be the magical center. > > The existence of the Department in the greater D.C. area is hinted > at by the local NBA local teams (Wizards, Mystics), which are > clearly just a front for this Department. And, of course, everyone > knows that the Capitol and the White House are haunted. The coincidental names of the DC sports teams notwithstanding (and tales of ghosts in the Lincoln bedroom), I think that the slowly- changing nature of wizard society would preclude it being in either Salem (which was the focus of witch trials for people who were decidedly NOT witches) or Washington, where there is too much modern, hi-tech security. IMO, more likely locations for the American Department of Magic would be St. Augustine, Florida (founded, 1513), or a place like New Orleans, which has also been continuously inhabited longer than DC. I lean a little more toward New Orleans since it has a lot of magical activity already and a chaotic Muggle government that would be less likely to meddle in magical affairs even if anyone in the Muggle government inadvertantly saw some magic. And a wizarding festival could easily be masked by the nuttiness of Mardi Gras year in and year out! Schools, on the other hand, would not be in the same place as the wizarding government, just as the MOM and Hogwarts aren't in the same place. Schools would be hidden in places as remote as possible-- mountains, forests, islands, etc.--and there would need to be at least three or four to serve the entire North American wizarding population. One location I like in particular is an island off the coast of Maine or New Foundland. Another location for a wizarding school that I like is an island in the middle of what the Muggle world calls the Bermuda triangle, which is where students from the Carribean would go to school... --Barb From john at walton.vu Tue Oct 2 22:14:51 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:14:51 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] American Magical Government/Schools In-Reply-To: <9pddmk+q98q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27037 blpurdom at yahoo.com wrote: > IMO, more likely locations for the American Department of Magic would > be St. Augustine, Florida (founded, 1513), or a place like New > Orleans, which has also been continuously inhabited longer than DC. > I lean a little more toward New Orleans since it has a lot of magical > activity already and a chaotic Muggle government that would be less > likely to meddle in magical affairs even if anyone in the Muggle > government inadvertantly saw some magic. I tend to prefer large cities or places waaaaaaaaaaay out in the country. New York would be perfect -- there are enough Wiccans/Pagans for the Wizards to hide amongst, or places like Utah (no offense), where entire army bases of "Patriots" hide out for their entire lives. Hmm...perhaps I should fic that :D --John ____________________________________________ "No good opera plot can be sensible, for people do not sing when they are feeling sensible." -W. H. Auden John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Oct 2 22:18:05 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:18:05 -0000 Subject: Wherefore Gryffindor? (was: On Behalf of Lavender and Parvati) In-Reply-To: <9pdc92+s3hd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pdeet+4fbu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27038 Barb wrote: > Other Gryffindors seem even less likely: Seamus thinks Parvati and her sister are the best-looking > girls in his year, but doesn't have the nerve to ask one of them to > the ball... Perhaps Parvati was brave enough to refuse Seamus' invitation, even though at the time she had no other prospect? > And then there's the > Creevey brothers! Colin is brave enough following Harry around when clearly not wanted, while Dennis is totally fearless - falling in the lake is nothing to him. You could argue that he isn't brave at all in that bravery is overcoming fear - but if we do take that tack, we need to re-evaluate *all* the characters. David From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 2 22:28:51 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:28:51 -0000 Subject: Wherefore Gryffindor? (was: On Behalf of Lavender and Parvati) In-Reply-To: <9pdc92+s3hd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pdf33+ol3k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27039 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > I'm glad you mentioned that, because I have been unable to justify in > my mind the reason for many of the other Gryffindors to BE > Gryffindors. We've had the Neville apologists (and I'm one of > them ;) ) explaining why Neville should be a Gryffindor, and there's > still, evidently, an ongoing debate about why Hermione is not in > Ravenclaw (I think she's where she belongs), but I could not recall > something that supported Lavender or Parvati being in Gryffindor > until you mentioned the Blast-Ended Skrewts. (Which is still > somewhat tenuous, IMHO.) > > Other Gryffindors seem even less likely: Lee Jordan, Seamus Finnigan, > Dean Thomas. > Are there any Lee (who I think is hysterical, BTW), Seamus or Dean > apologists out there? Why should they be Gryffindors? Is there an > even more complelling reason than the Skrewts for Lavender and > Parvati being Gryffindors? A reason for the Gryffindor Chasers to be > in this house, other than being Chasers? And then there's the > Creevey brothers! I'm willing to give most of them the benefit of > the doubt if they aren't in Harry's year, because we don't see as > much of them. But the others in Harry's year...Okay, convince me... > Well, I don't know if I want to vie for the title of "apologist," but perhaps we are setting the bar a little too high here. I don't think that the fact that a student is slotted in Gryffindor necessarily means that they are destined to be heroes. It may just mean they have some of these tendencies, IMHO. Indeed, why even phrase the question this way? Why not ask, "Have any of the Gryffindors exhibited traits that definitively show that they should NOT have been placed in Gryffindor?" That question is pretty easy to answer -- no, I think. Also, I'm not willing to dismiss Lavender and Pavarti's interest in Divination as evidence that they are flaky or frivolous. Who knows what things Trelawney is telling them or teaching them during their little meetings? Trelawney did see Sirius in the crystal ball, so she earned a tablespoon of respect from me. Besides, Harry, Ron and Hermione spend a lot of time with Hagrid, but that is not viewed as frivolous. Anyway, I will grudgingly accept the role of Seamus apologist, because I think he will be a Big Deal because the Sorting Hat took a while to figure him out. Perhaps a Big Deal in a Pettigrew sort of way. Also (and I know I'm rambling now), I expect that one of the Gryffindors will pull a Pettigrew in later books and betray Harry. Does anyone have a good candidate in mind? Cindy (who thinks that characters with catchy names like Sirius Black, Remus Lupin and Lavender Brown are destined for greatness) From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 22:28:36 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:28:36 -0000 Subject: Lily was a good person Message-ID: <9pdf2k+74p8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27040 Many people have taken sides on whether Lily and Snape had a relationship or that Snape just had feelings for her or worse that Lily may have played around w/ Snapes feelings. Well, I just wanted to state that I feel that Lily may have been a bit flirtatous as a student, but I know if she thought Snape had real feelings about her, she would have never played around w/ them. I also believe Snape did have feelings for her, but probably too afraid to show his feelings for the beautiful Lily! I also think that if James, Siris and the rest of the group would have not done anything to upset or anger Snape, if they knew Snape had feelings for Lily because deep down James would not have let the others mess around w/ someone else's feelings, except maybe "Tom Riddle's" feelings! I do have a strange theory that just popped into my mind... very far fetched and out there... but then again... we are talking about Potterverse!!! Do we know for sure Petunia she is not a witch and might be bad... or correct me if I'm wrong.. even muggles can be affected by potions... therefore Petunia may have done something to trick Snape. Crazy I know but crazier things have happened in Potterverse!! Who knows... maybe the reason Petunia is so anti-Harry, is because she wasn't good enough to go to Hogwarts and be important like her "wonderful" sister Lily!!! Sorry... just a lot, I doubt it even is a somewhat logical thougth... but right now I'm sitting here watching X-files and seeing a fave actor from another show and thinking about how certin actors are typecasted, therefore, could certin characters in lit be typecasted, therefore we can see more into their personality then is actually written. Plus, we know that Petunia hates Lily and probably she would do anything to destroy Lily's happiness or even (gasp) life! Like I said, "sorry for the tagent, which is pretty far-fetched" Laura From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 2 23:11:02 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:11:02 -0000 Subject: TriWizard Cup as Portkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pdhi6+h9on@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27041 > Cynthia wrote: > > > I'm still not convinced about the "Voldemort Plans To Storm Hogwarts" > > theory. Heidi wrote: > Without bringing in too much of an analysis of the recent terrorist attacks, > what happened at the Pentagon and the WTC has only clarified, for me, the > sick manipulation of using one's own Ordinary, Every Day Devices against > those who created it. Moody was right on the field - he could have been > prepped to take some of Dumbledore's people - perhaps even Dumbledore > himself, or Fudge -out as soon as Voldy appeared with Harry's body. And it > was night-time, and there would've been chaos. How many students would be > able to think clearly enough to react? And Voldy didn't really need to > *kill* students - his goals would've been accomplished by a massacre of > about a dozen teachers, Fudge and Dumbledore. People would've panicked, > possibly jumped from the high-in-the-air stands, trampled fellow students - > perhaps some of the children of the Death Eaters would've caught up in the > violence. > > It would've been a horrible and chaotic and destructive night - and all > because VOldemort managed to use Albus Dumbledore's portkey against > Hogwarts. OK. You make some very good points. But one thing that troubles me is that Dumbledore tells us that Voldemort's most dangerous supporters are still in Azkaban. So if Voldemort were to storm Hogwarts right after re-birthing, he would be doing it with his "B" team. Based on the little we know, the DEs aren't all that impressive. They have dreadful aim with their Stunning Curses, as 30 of them couldn't hit Harry. We know they are not too nimble, as none were able to grab Harry or outrun him. We have Wormtail, whom Voldemort holds in such low regard and treat with such contempt that only a man with nowhere else to go would stand for it. We have Avery, who doesn't have the good sense to keep a low profile after Voldemort advises that he is "disappointed" in the DEs. We have Crabbe and Goyle -- 'nuff said. The star is Lucius Malfoy, who was tricked by a 12-year-old boy into freeing Dobby. Perhaps waiting for reinforcements from Azkaban was a good plan, no? :) Cindy From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 23:12:34 2001 From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:12:34 -0000 Subject: Past and Present Parallels In-Reply-To: <9pd4qr+jnvq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pdhl2+g5vn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27042 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kidzero7 at h... wrote: > (first time poster and please excuse any inaccuracies because I'm at > work and without the books for references) > > I don't know if this has been discussed, but it could very well give > us some insight into future books. > > While reading the books, I felt a strong sense of parallel between > the past Hogwarts kids (James, Sirius, etc) and the present Hogwarts > kids (Harry, Ron, etc). > > If anything, JK may show us that history repeats itself. That some of > the themes of the past will repeat in the present. > > One example: > Draco Malfoy = Snape > > I wouldn't be surprised to see that Draco Malfoy isn't such a bad kid > afterall. That he is simply 'evil' because he was raised that way and > he is jealous of Harry and his friends. I wouldn't be surprised if > Harry saves his life. Or that Malfoy remains somewhat mean- spirited, > but works for the good side in the future. All this just like Snape. > > Other parallels: > Ron = Sirius Black > Neville = Peter Pettigrew (*cringe*) > > I also expect Harry and the 'good side' to be betrayed by someone > close to them. Someone who is weak or too eager to please a higher > power. That person being either Neville or Percy. We'll see. > > So what do you think? Most likely not. It's the strong belief of many that Snape was in love with Lily and is angry at Harry for several reasons: first, it's always commented on (including Snape) that Harry is a lot like his father. Snape would not like Harry for that reason alone. Plus, if Snape was in love with Lily, Harry is only a painful reminder not only of his former love, but the reason she was killed. For that reason, we don't really have any reason to suspect that Snape was raised bad. Lucious Malfoy is truly evil - he has sided with Voldemort. He is raising Draco in much the same way so unless something happens we may not see Draco coming to the good side. But Snape could have been raised similarly, but we have no reason at this point to think so. And I sure would hate to see Neville become a traitor like Wormtail! But plenty has happened that's been pretty bad... From sgallag4 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 23:27:25 2001 From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:27:25 -0000 Subject: Info on book 5, true... I doubt it, but I will pass it on... In-Reply-To: <9pd1v0+6dln@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pdigt+778o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27043 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., animalsbaby_1999 at y... wrote: > This afternoon, I was shopping in a nationally chained bookstore (in > the U.S.) and I asked the info desk when book 5 is coming out or if > they have a tentive date for release? Their answer... I kid you > not... Nov of this year. I really doubt it, since all of the other > books were pushed a good 2 or 3 months before arriving in stores, but > then they told me that their information states maybe date of Nov, > but probably more like Jan... so who knows!!! > The November date was when the book was originally scheduled for publication, and I suspect the clerk you spoke to didn't realize the date had changed. A month or month and a half ago, Scholastic books released a financial statement saying that they expecting earnings to be down in Fiscal Year 2002 because there would be no new HP book. Fiscal Year 2002 ends for them on May 31st, so I take from that that the earliest publication date will be June 2002. From sgallag4 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 23:35:25 2001 From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:35:25 -0000 Subject: Past and Present Parallels In-Reply-To: <9pdhl2+g5vn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pdivt+d25f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27044 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kidzero7 at h... wrote: > > I also expect Harry and the 'good side' to be betrayed by someone > > close to them. Someone who is weak or too eager to please a higher > > power. That person being either Neville or Percy. We'll see. > > I don't think Neville will be the new Pettigrew. We've been shown that Neville is willing to stand up to Harry and co. (as when he tries to stop them from leaving the Gryffindor commons room) and he does have his own niche in Herbology whereas Pettigrew is described as lacking any specialty. I think Neville might be the inverse of Pettigrew just as Harry is the inverse of Riddle. Just as Harry is an orphaned magician of great potential who was treated poorly by Muggles but does not seek Riddle's path, Neville seems to be a poor magician with a tendency to tag along with others who might be headed down a better path than Pettigrew. Percy, however, I can see as betraying Harry, even if unintentionally, because of his desire to get ahead at the Ministry. JKR has said in chats that the future books will emphasize the choice between what is right and what is easy. An obvious problem would be whether Percy chooses the "easy" route to power. > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jeremy_t_williams at h... wrote: > For that reason, we don't really have any reason to suspect that > Snape was raised bad. I think we have reason to suspect Snape was raised to be evil. Sirius described Snape as arriving at Hogwarts knowing more curses than even many seventh year students. Someone had to teach those curses to Snape or provide him with the books, and the obvious place to look would be the people who raised him. --Suz From usergoogol at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 01:30:35 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 01:30:35 -0000 Subject: Why does Petunia hate magic so much? Message-ID: <9pdpnr+57dh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27045 There are alot of incredibly cool theories being tossed around, but here's mine. It's the incredibly common combination of intolerance and Christianity. Although it is a well known fact that Christianity is SUPPOSED to be a tolerant relgion (Jesus was apparently a very tolerant guy, with all that love thy enemy stuff.) But, due to the simple fact that monotheistic relgions in general teach that their belief system is the divine message of God, and that those who are not on God's side get eternal torture, Christians can get a little annoying at times. And since the Bible is such a darned big book, its not so hard to interpet a certian scripture to ones own purposes. So there was Petunia Evans, who found out that her sister (anyone know who is older?) has magical powers, and she was quite jealous. But when she realized that certian scripture frowns upon magic, she decides, "Well, she's not so great. She's just a freak. And she'll rot in hell too!" Now, Lily became quite an excellent witch, which of course, annoyed Petunia even more, but at another level she figured, "She's walking the sinful road to hell!" And forgot about her. (Not a very Christian thing to do, but come now. She's a jerk.) Now, she marries Vernon Dursley, and has a lovely (in her mind) little child who she names Dudley. Then, her sister gets killed ("What did she think would happen she got mixed up with those things?") and she gets Harry. She decides (somewhere in that justifying Christian level) to prevent Harry from going to hell too. She doesn't exactly do very well, (even by Muggle standards) and Harry goes to Hogwarts too. --- Some have supposed that she is a witch, and that would be a delightfully amusing plot device. It's quite reasonable that she used her own magic to... supress her magic. As someone who believes that homosexuality is at least partially controlled by a gene, I believe that this no doubt happens in reality. Someone believes that thing "X" is bad, so they supress it. Of course, for this theory to work, (the way I'm figuring it) Petunia would have to be a bit younger than Lily, because she would come to her jealousy/quasi-christian stance on religion before getting magic of her own. A little ironic though, that her sister having something which she actually had caused her to repress it, causing her to be even more jealous. --- If it helps you figure where I'm coming from, I'm an atheist. 14.9 years old too, if that helps you get a mental picture of me. --- ~User "I was a teenage heathen" Googol~ From tessadirk at aol.com Wed Oct 3 01:43:29 2001 From: tessadirk at aol.com (tessadirk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 01:43:29 -0000 Subject: TriWizard Cup as Portkey In-Reply-To: <9pdhi6+h9on@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pdqg1+s98q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27046 > > > I'm still not convinced about the "Voldemort Plans To Storm > Hogwarts" > > > theory. > Based on the little we know, the DEs aren't all that impressive. > They have dreadful aim with their Stunning Curses, as 30 of them > couldn't hit Harry. We know they are not too nimble, as none were > able to grab Harry or outrun him. We have Wormtail, whom Voldemort > holds in such low regard and treat with such contempt that only a man > with nowhere else to go would stand for it. We have Avery, who > doesn't have the good sense to keep a low profile after Voldemort > advises that he is "disappointed" in the DEs. We have Crabbe and > Goyle -- 'nuff said. The star is Lucius Malfoy, who was tricked by a > 12-year-old boy into freeing Dobby. Then again, you have to consider that they may be out of practice - after all, Voldemort has been "gone" for fourteen years. Amanda From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 01:58:34 2001 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 01:58:34 -0000 Subject: Why does Petunia hate magic so much? In-Reply-To: <9pdpnr+57dh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pdrca+n1mb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27047 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > There are alot of incredibly cool theories being tossed around, but >here's mine. > > It's the incredibly common combination of intolerance and >Christianity. >Christians can get a little annoying at times. And since the Bible >is such a darned big book, its not so hard to interpet a certian >scripture to ones own purposes. >But when she realized that certian scripture frowns upon magic, she >decides, "Well, she's not so great. She's just a freak. And she'll >rot in hell too!" > > "She's walking the sinful road to hell!" And forgot about her. > (Not a very Christian thing to do, but come now. She's a jerk.) Obviously you are entitled to your own opinions and theories. However, when stating your theories I do wish you would cast aside your intolerance of Christianity. You can make your point without constantly belittling the faith of others. Please save that for the OT board. > If it helps you figure where I'm coming from, I'm an atheist. 14.9 >years old too, if that helps you get a mental picture of me. I believe there was a poll asking for all the above information. usergoogol also said in message 26913: >Isn't interesting how all this "real" magic is in the Harry Potter >books. Of course, that's also one of the reasons why those annoying >fundamentalists complain so much. (Not to offend any >fundamentalists.) Hmmmmm.....I'm finding it hard to believe you don't want to offend any of those annoying fundamentalists! Koinonia From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Wed Oct 3 02:02:43 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:02:43 -0400 Subject: ADMIN:Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why does Petunia hate magic so much ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27048 Just got off the phone with penny about this- she is putting her baby to bed. She asked me to put a hold on the thread at least in terms of debating and discussing theology. She may modify this modding when she gets on later, but for now - tolerance, please, by everyone, is the watchword of the night. -----Original Message----- From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue Oct 02 21:58:34 2001 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why does Petunia hate magic so much? Real-To: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com --- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote: > There are alot of incredibly cool theories being tossed around, but >here's mine. > > It's the incredibly common combination of intolerance and >Christianity. >Christians can get a little annoying at times. And since the Bible >is such a darned big book, its not so hard to interpet a certian >scripture to ones own purposes. >But when she realized that certian scripture frowns upon magic, she >decides, "Well, she's not so great. She's just a freak. And she'll >rot in hell too!" > > "She's walking the sinful road to hell!" And forgot about her. > (Not a very Christian thing to do, but come now. She's a jerk.) Obviously you are entitled to your own opinions and theories. However, when stating your theories I do wish you would cast aside your intolerance of Christianity. You can make your point without constantly belittling the faith of others. Please save that for the OT board. > If it helps you figure where I'm coming from, I'm an atheist. 14.9 >years old too, if that helps you get a mental picture of me. I believe there was a poll asking for all the above information. usergoogol also said in message 26913: >Isn't interesting how all this "real" magic is in the Harry Potter >books. Of course, that's also one of the reasons why those annoying >fundamentalists complain so much. (Not to offend any >fundamentalists.) Hmmmmm.....I'm finding it hard to believe you don't want to offend any of those annoying fundamentalists! Koinonia ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ebonyink at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 02:14:03 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 02:14:03 -0000 Subject: American Magical Government/Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pds9b+rr3j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27049 Barb wrote-- > > IMO, more likely locations for the American Department of Magic would be St. Augustine, Florida (founded, 1513), or a place like New > > Orleans, which has also been continuously inhabited longer than DC. But let's remember that what we now know as the United States of America was inhabited for thousands of years prior to the founding of St. Augustine. I love the schoolbooks because they allow us glimpses into the history of magic in Britain. Before there was a Ministry of Magic, there was a Wizard's Council. I am quite sure that the Native Americans/American Indian nations had some sort of organization in place long before the Old World settlers arrived. Might not have been exactly like England's Council, but I am sure there was *something*. > I tend to prefer large cities or places waaaaaaaaaaay out in the country. > New York would be perfect -- there are enough Wiccans/Pagans for the Wizards > to hide amongst, or places like Utah (no offense), where entire army bases > of "Patriots" hide out for their entire lives. On this issue I think I agree totally with Joywitch. The fact that the American DoM is now in D.C. seemed a no-brainer to me. Our nation's first capital wasn't Washington, so it's completely feasible that the DoM must have moved too. John, I agree with you. The International Confederation of Wizards meets in New York these days, although in the past they've met in various locations around the world. ;-) --Ebony AKA AngieJ From joyw at gwu.edu Wed Oct 3 02:28:47 2001 From: joyw at gwu.edu (- Joy -) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:28:47 -0400 Subject: Weekly Summary: PS/SS Chapters 2 and 3 Message-ID: <00e501c14bb3$27cc1580$7c44a480@cp124541b> No: HPFGUIDX 27050 Hi everyone, Sorry these summaries are late, but I was at home without my books over the weekend. I had a really hard time coming up with original questions for these pretty straightforward chapters, so feel free to add as you see fit. Enjoy! --------------------------------- Chapter Two: The Vanishing Glass ----------------------------------- Everything is pretty much the same at the Dursleys as it was ten years ago. They pretend that Harry isn't living with them. Harry is having a dream about a flying motorcycle before Petunia wakes him up. He has to make sure Dudley's birthday breakfast doesn't burn. The kitchen table is covered with Dudley's birthday presents. We learn that Dudley is fat and likes to abuse Harry. Harry, on the other hand, is tall and skinny with black hair, green eyes, Scotch taped glasses, hand-me down clothes, and a thin lightening bolt shaped scar. The Dursleys tell Harry the scar is from a car crash. They don't like questions, and hate Harry's messy hair. Dudley is upset because he got less presents than last year, but Petunia quickly appeases him with the promise of more. Mrs. Figg, who usually takes care of Harry, has broken her leg. No one else can watch Harry, and the Dursleys don't trust him enough to leave him at home. Harry is taken along to the zoo, in spite of Dudley's protestations. Strange things happen around Harry, like his hair regrowing, sweaters shrinking, and him landing on the school roof. Harry talks about his motorcycle dream, and Uncle Vernon yells. The Dursleys hate talk of magic. Harry gets a rare treat of ice cream at the zoo. A boa constrictor winks at Harry, and talks to him. The glass to its cage vanishes, and the snake escapes. Everyone is scared and agitated. Piers Polkiss, Dudley's friend, reveals that Harry was talking to the snake before it escaped. Harry has to stay in his cupboard without food. He remembers green light and burning pain from the night when he got his scar, though he can't reconcile the light with a car crash. Harry has no photographs of or information about his parents. Odd-looking people like to talk to him on the street. Harry has no friends. ---------------------------------------- Is Dudley's weight a sign of prejudice against big people, or is it just description? Where do the Dursleys get the money for Dudley's presents? Why is the scar lightening shaped? Will that be significant? What's up with Mrs. Figg? Is the cabbage smell in her house an indicator of magic? Why didn't Petunia recognize Harry's incidents as signs of magic? Why do the Dursleys hate Harry so much? How did Harry survive their neglect and abuse? Didn't Harry think it was odd that he could hear the snake? Why is the light green? Why isn't Harry more curious about his past? ----------------------------------- Chapter Three - The Letters from No One: ------------------------------------- Harry isn't allowed to leave the cupboard until summer starts. He tries to stay out of the house, to avoid Dudley and his friends. Dudley is going to Smeltings, Uncle Vernon's alma mater, while Harry will go to the local public school. Harry stays with Mrs. Figg, who gives him chocolate and lets him watch TV. Dudley's uniform comes with a stick, which he uses on Harry. Everyone admires Dudley in his uniform. Harry's uniform is old, wet, and grey. Harry is sent to get the mail, and he gets a letter, which has never happened before. Uncle Vernon steals the letter, and is alarmed. He calls Petunia. Both Harry and Dudley are kicked out of the room. They decide to ignore the letters, and affirm their commitment not to be involved with magic. Harry gets to move into Dudley's second room. Everything there is broken. Even though it's more luxurious than his cupboard, Harry would prefer the letter. Another letter is delivered, but it's addressed to the bedroom, not the cupboard. Harry tries to intercept the letter by going down early to get the mail, but he steps on Uncle Vernon, also waiting. Three more letters arrive. Vernon nails the mail slot shut. More letters are pushed under the door. Letters come inside the eggs, and down the chimney. The family packs hurriedly and goes to a remote hotel. Another letter is sent there. The next day will be Harry's eleventh birthday. They row out to a hut perched on a rock in the sea. It's cold and stormy. Harry has to sleep on the floor. Harry counts down to his eleventh birthday. At the stroke of midnight, there's a loud knock on the door. ---------------------------------------------- Does Mrs. Figg give Harry chocolate because the Dursleys are like dementors? How are the letters delivered? Wouldn't Petunia know that the letter was coming? Why did Hogwarts wait to send Hagrid to get Harry? How does the school track Harry's location? Who did you think was knocking on your first read-through? ----------------------------------------------- ~Joy~ http://diluted.org/joy From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 3 03:13:35 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 22:13:35 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Religion Discussions -- Tolerance -- Diversity References: Message-ID: <3BBA825F.7010404@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27051 Hi all -- Confirming what Heidi wrote earlier, please confine discussions of religion to religion as it might pertain to the wizarding world. As we've stressed in at least one other ADMIN message this month, please also respect the diversity of our vast membership (said diversity is illustrated in the diversity polls included in the Polls area for those who might be interested). Thanks -- Penny The Magical Mod Squad From lumen_dei at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 03:14:53 2001 From: lumen_dei at yahoo.com (lumen_dei at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 03:14:53 -0000 Subject: New commercial Message-ID: <9pdvrd+lult@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27052 Hello, just wanted to let everyone know that Warner Brother's has the new commercial loaded on their site. http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/article.j sp?id=TV-Spot We, at the Harry Potter Philosopher's Shop, have added some of the stills under the Press Page. Why not check them out? Thanks! http://www.the-sorting-hat.com From George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com Wed Oct 3 03:20:52 2001 From: George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com (Mrs. G. Weasley) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 03:20:52 -0000 Subject: Summary/Questions: PS/SS Chapter One Message-ID: <9pe06k+7lrl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27053 Hey! This is my first time doing a chapter summary with questions, so please don't run me out of the fandom if it sucks. Just let me know that it does and I shall take care of shutting my own ears in the oven. I hope this spurs some conversation. I'm sorry it's so late. Enjoy reading! ***** HARRY POTTER AND THE PHILOSOPHER'S (OR, BY A STUPID EDITOR'S DECISION, "SORCERER'S") STONE (Am I bitter? No...) Chapter One Summary "Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much..." The first chapter continues, following Mr. Dursley to work at a drill company called Grunnings. After leaving his son in a middle of a temper tantrum and his wife to deal with it, he heads for his place of employment. The first thing that catches his attention is a cat reading a map -- after a double take, there's no map... right? and the cat was merely glancing at the sign... not reading it. He spots several people rushing about in cloaks (the getups you saw on young people!) and hurries into his office before more strangeness fills his morning. On the way home, he hears mention of "the Potters" and "their son, Harry..." Could it be the same people he and his wife pretend not to be related to? After affirming this at home, a shanken Mr. Dursley keeps it to himself and dirfts uneasily to sleep that night. Some time later, out on the sidewalk, Albus Dumbledore extinguishes the lights on Privet Drive and greets Animagus Professor McGonagall. McGonagall confesses her annoyance with the celebrating witches and wizards who are in danger of letting the secret of the magical world come into the Muggle world. Finally, she has Dumbledore confirm the inevitable: James and Lily Potter died at the hands of Voldemort, but Harry was spared and LV was reduced to a shell. After words of consolation, Dumbledore tells her that Harry will be staying with the Dursleys. McGonagall reacts with indignation, telling Dumbledore that it's the best place for him. Hagrid shows up with baby Harry and Dumbledore slips a letter into the baby's basket, explaining what happened the previous night. "... at this very moment, people meeting in secret all over the country were holding up their glasses and saying in hushed voices: 'To Harry Potter -- the boy who lived!'" DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: 1. JKR has a tendency to foreshadow and plant things early on in the series that she uses later. As any screenwriter will tell you, you can almost always get away with anything if you foreshadow it properly. For example, Sirius Black appears as early as chapter one of the first book, but is not important until book three. What things in this chapter do you see as foreshadowing to the coming books? Why do you feel these things are pertinent to the series? 2. Many believe the series will come full circle, with everything trailing back to that fateful night on 31 October 1981. Do you agree? What clues are in this chapter that might have an effect on the upcoming novels? 3. A speculation on what might have been: How would Harry's life be different if he had spent his childhood growing up in the wizarding world? Would it be better or worse? Would be have the ego of Gilderoy Lockhart or would he be as insecure as he had been coming out of the shelter of the Dursleys? 4. If George had been in this chapter, how might he have affected the story? No, really. :-D *ducks tomatoes* Jana From joym999 at aol.com Wed Oct 3 05:00:50 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 05:00:50 -0000 Subject: Summary/Questions: PS/SS Chapter One In-Reply-To: <9pe06k+7lrl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pe622+8tcb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27054 Great summary and questions, Jana. I have another question about this chapter; something which has been bothering me for ages. Kind of nitpicky, though, not a profound question like Jana's: What's the deal with the Put-Outer? Why would Dumbledore need a special device just to put out some streetlights? Was his wand in the shop for repairs or something? --Joywitch, just being a LOON From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 05:01:13 2001 From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 05:01:13 -0000 Subject: Malfoy, Crabbe, & Goyle in book 5 Message-ID: <9pe62p+r0ei@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27055 As book four ends, Lucius Malfoy was seen by Harry pledging his loyalty to Voldemort, and the adult Crabbe and Goyle were mentioned by V. as being present among his followers. They know Harry escaped and reported this to Dumbledore and Fudge. In book five, do you think Draco and the others will come back to Hogwart's as students? I think their parent's would see this as a good way of trying to keep an eye on Dumbledore. Also, from what I've seen of Dumbledore, I don't see him barring them. He would believe that they were not beyond redemption and would want to give them every chance to choose differently from their parents. However, with concrete evidence that Voldemort lives and is massing his forces, how are they going to get any teaching and learning done? What will happen among the Slytherins, since not all of them are V. supporters? I'm not sure if I'm putting that right, but that house is going to be a hellish place, IMO Donna From devika261 at aol.com Wed Oct 3 05:15:42 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 01:15:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weekly Summary: PS/SS Chapters 2 and 3 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27056 In a message dated Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:35:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, - Joy - writes: > ---------------------------------------- > Is Dudley's weight a sign of prejudice against big people, or is it just > description? I don't think it's prejudice. I think it's representative of the fact that Dudley is spoiled rotten by his parents, whereas Harry, being small and skinny, is neglected. > Where do the Dursleys get the money for Dudley's presents? I don't think they would spare any expense for their precious Dudleykins. They seem relatively well-off, so I'm sure they can afford all the presents (and all the food, presumably). Wasn't there a rumor that the Dursleys would have financial difficulties in the next book(s)? Maybe Grunnings will go out of business... > Why is the scar lightening shaped? Will that be significant? IIRC, JKR once said that she wanted Harry's scar to symbolize the power of the spell that Voldemort had used. She also wanted a shape that stood out, so the lightning bolt makes sense, to me, anyway. > What's up with Mrs. Figg? She's a witch who is living in the Muggle world under Dumbledore's orders so that she can watch over Harry. She's also a member of the "old crowd" who is going to be the new DADA teacher. (All IMO, of course, except for the "old crowd" part.) > Is the cabbage smell in her house an indicator of magic? Absolutely. Polyjuice Potion, perhaps? Or maybe just potions in general. > Why didn't Petunia recognize Harry's incidents as signs of magic? She probably did, but she wanted to believe that she could "stamp it out of him." > Why do the Dursleys hate Harry so much? He's not like them. And he probably reminds Petunia of her envy and resentment of Lily. > How did Harry survive their neglect and abuse? He's a Gryffindor! Also, it's possible that the protection that Lily gave him by sacrificing herself helped Harry withstand the Dursleys. > Didn't Harry think it was odd that he could hear the snake? He was surprised at first, but he probably instinctively knew that talking to the snake was the natural thing to do--at least for him. > Why is the light green? The Avada Kedavra curse is green. > Why isn't Harry more curious about his past? In SS, I understand that Harry doesn't ask any questions because the Dursleys refuse to answer them. However, by the end of book 4, I do not see why Harry has never had a long conversation with Sirius about his parents. I don't think he has ever so much as mentioned his parents to Sirius, although he *knows* that Sirius would be able to answer most of his questions about them. The only reason I can think of is that we, the readers, know what Harry knows, and JKR doesn't want us to know about Harry's past just yet. But that's definitely a weak point in the series right now, IMO. > ----------------------------------- > Chapter Three - The Letters from No One: > ------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------- > Does Mrs. Figg give Harry chocolate because the Dursleys are like dementors? I think she's just trying to be nice to him. She knows he'll be going to Hogwarts soon, one way or another. There might be some kind of potion in the cake, which is why it tastes a bit funny, but I'm not sure what it would be for. Maybe it's somehow an extension of Harry's protection, since Mrs. Figg won't be able to watch over him anymore. > How are the letters delivered? Hogwarts must have some special kind of delivery service, probably related to Owl Post, that goes to Muggles. > Wouldn't Petunia know that the letter was coming? She probably did know, but she wanted to believe that it wasn't. > Why did Hogwarts wait to send Hagrid to get Harry? Maybe they didn't realize just how set against magic the Dursleys were. I got the impression that Dumbledore had intended the Dursleys to tell Harry about his parents, and he had no reason to believe that they hadn't. (Except for Mrs. Figg, though.) > How does the school track Harry's location? By magic . (It's late; I can't come up with anything better.) > Who did you think was knocking on your first read-through? My first read-through?! That was quite a while ago--and there have been a whole lot of other readings since then. Hmmm...I don't really remember. I probably didn't think it was anyone in particular, because I wasn't quite used to the style of the books yet and I wasn't analyzing them. Actually, I didn't even try to analyze GoF on my first reading. I actually hope I don't try too hard in OotP. I just want to go along for the ride the first time through. Devika :) > ----------------------------------------------- > > ~Joy~ > http://diluted.org/joy > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From oppen at cnsinternet.com Wed Oct 3 05:19:32 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 00:19:32 -0500 Subject: Voldemort's Smarts Message-ID: <00ef01c14bca$fd1e8f80$c4c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 27057 A lot of people have posted here about how dumb Lord Voldemort's been, like duelling Harry in GoF instead of just killing him. It occurs to me that Lord Voldemort's been through a _lot_ of dangerous magical transformations since his Tom Riddle days, and that any or all of these could have seriously affected his brain or his judgement. You don't necessarily have to be brilliantly smart to cast spells---otherwise poor Draco Malfoy would be without his two favorite thugs. The brain is about the most delicate part of the body, and even a small injury can, as I have excellent reasons to know, have catastrophic effects. The transformations were described by Dumbledore as dangerous, and many of them may have had side effects---in fact, we know they did, since Lord Voldemort looks very different than an aged, but still hearty, Tom-Riddle-who-had-never-gone-bad would look. They may very well have affected his brain, and he himself might not be aware of this fact---my mother had serious side-effects from a head injury, but she swore up and down that she was perfectly fine, thank you, and she was NOT hypomanic, or in need of tranquilizers. (At least, this is what she swore to me---after her death I heard from one of her longtime friends that Mom had admitted to her that she WAS, after all, hypomanic). Or Voldemort might be aware of the changes, and either not care or think that they're improvements. So Voldemort's spellcasting might be just about as sharp as ever, while his judgement's severely impaired. It would be interesting to observe the Death Eaters if they ever came to the conclusion that Voldemort was not as sharp as he once had been, and wasn't on the ball as much any more. They strike me as a backstabbing lot, and they might very well be pretending to follow Voldemort until he destroys all opposition (his spellcasting's still good, after all) at which point they intend to turn on him and destroy him and take over the wizarding world, which he so kindly cleared of possible opposition to their rule. Comments? Flames? From caliburncy at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 05:51:34 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 05:51:34 -0000 Subject: Forgetful Characters/Maximum Capacity In-Reply-To: <9pchgh+meuh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pe916+hi05@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27058 On a cute personal note, imagine my surprise when I checked the list this morning to see who had posted while I was sleeping and saw a post by ME. Eh? Oh, I realize, that's the post I sent back on Sunday (prior to my other posts that nevertheless arrived sooner) which never showed up and I'd completely forgotten about. Gotta love Yahoo and the fun, fun delay time. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > What strikes me about your comments on maximum capacity, however, is > that there must be at least two ways of having one's villian act at > maximum capacity for the majority of the story, and then have him > lapse at the crucial time without generating "eye rolls" among > readers. One way is to just have him blunder, which is what we see > with "Phoenix tears -- I forgot." (We need to think of a catchy > name for this type of blunder.) Umm, "The Minor Oversight"? Or, "The Blatantly Obvious Moronic Oversight"? Or, "M.O.R.O.N.I.C. (Minor Oversight Regarding Obvious Neglect of Information Critical) -- Darn, it almost works except for the noun/adjective reversal > Perhaps the better way, however, is simply to deprive the villian of > a critical piece of information. Because the villian does not have > this information, his actions make perfect sense based on what he > does know. His lack of a complete understanding of the > circumstances becomes his downfall, rather than just his poor memory > and general lack of Evil Overlord skills. We can call this "Ka-Blaam! Elimination: Lack of Education", assuming Disney doesn't sue us. > Back to maximum capacity. Are there other effective ways of having > the villian come up short in a believable way so that the hero's > victory isn't contrived? Well, if I may quote myself first just in case the reference becomes necessary: "I should add that, in theory, a villain can act at maximum capacity and still lose. Their maximum capacity *at that moment* just needs to be smaller than the hero's was *at that moment*. This does not imply that the hero should be unbalanced to the villain and generally more capable (that's a very BAD idea for a dramatic story). It means that something in the external circumstances must hinder the villain somehow from having the normally equal amount of maximum capacity as his protagonistic counterpart." What I mean here, as you probably realize, is that there would be some external hindrance that temporarily puts the antagonist at a disadvantage through no direct fault of his own or through any intentional manipulation by the protagonist. It would have to be something totally unavoidable--where the antagonist, despite having made decisions at a maximum capacity equal to or greater than the protagonist, finds that those decisions inevitably backed him into some kind of wall. It is very difficult to do, which is perhaps why I'm having trouble thinking of suitable examples. But anyway, a credible, non-contrived way to make a villain lose doesn't just have to be deprivation of critical information, of course. Take a villain, like the one-eyed pirate Klingon (I forget his name . . . General Chang, I think) from Star Trek VI, who as a strategic commander was pretty equal to Kirk, and had the added advantage of firing while cloaked to up his maximum capacity higher than Kirk's was. Both were acting making full use of their resource, and hence both were acting at their maximum capacity--Chang's was just higher because of what was at his disposal. But Kirk's crew were able to track his ship from emissions and thus destroy him (at this point their maximum capacity exceeded Chang's). Chang acted out of his full maximum capacity and still lost; and what eventually gave Kirk the upper hand was not information, but technology. Anyway, it's the same thing in the end, and that's still not quite the example I mean when I refer to the possibility of an external circumstance temporarily lowering the protagonist's maximum capacity. > Cindy (who belatedly realizes that her English Lit classes might > have been interesting had she bothered to pay attention) Yes, they might have been, but for different reasons than why what we talk about here is interesting. English Lit is often all about Faulkner and Joyce and experimental fiction and streams of consciousness and symbolism and occasionally reading things into the books that Faulkner himself denied the presence of. Don't get me wrong--I enjoyed my English classes (up to a point) and was a top student. But they don't teach you anything about the techniques of a dramatic novel, except perhaps the occasional reference to foreshadowing. That sort of thing is more likely to be encountered in a creative writing class or something of the sort. -Luke From jedi_master1 at edsamail.com.ph Wed Oct 3 06:18:06 2001 From: jedi_master1 at edsamail.com.ph (Mary Ann Ortiz) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 06:18:06 -0000 Subject: Dementors and Harry,; Ginny In-Reply-To: <20011002182058.16587.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9peaiu+9eqk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27059 wow! that was a very good point about Ginny. hmmm.... maybe it was indeed a hint that she was involved in the opening of the chamber. and JKR did hint that Ginny will play a big role in book 5. i just hope JKR doesn't kill her off or turn her into a bad girl or something. i mean, she's a sweet girl.... about the dementors and Ginny's reaction, i don't believe she reacted that way solely because of Harry. i think she was also reliving her experiences in the Chamber with Tom.... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lisa palmer wrote: > > > dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > > In POA, are the Dementors targeting Harry right from the first > encounter on the train? > > > > > > cynthiaanncoe@ wrote: > I also find Lupin's explanations of why the dementors seem to be > giving Harry a hard time to be a little unconvincing. Add in > Dumbledore's statement to Fudge that the dementors can't be trusted > to guard Voldemort's most dangerous supporters, and Dumbledore's > general dislike of Dementors, and I think they have it in for Harry. > > > > I don't remember it reading this way at all. Harry was NOT specifically targeted at the match or on the train, he was just more sensitive to the effects of the Dementors. Harry's question was why they had such an extreme effect on him compared to the others, nobody else passed out etc, and he was embarresed because he felt weaker and like a wimp. He did not ask why the went after him..because they didn't. They "inhaled" the joy from everybody. This is why Lupins explanation makes perfect sense. Harry had a more painful childhood, less joy. > > In the scene by the lake, I thought they were simply taking out Harry because he was the one trying to fight them, therefore he was an accomplice of the escaped prisoner. I agree it is strange that only one had lowered his hood. Perhaps more would have to kill Hermione and Sirius had not the second Harry come to the rescue? > > Question: JKR drew attention to Ginny's reaction from the dementors too. Harry had asked if anybody else passed out or something, and Ron gave a reply that was negative, but mentioned that Ginny was also strongly affected too. So a question is. was Ginny so white-faced because she was scared for Harry..or is she also strongly affected by the dementors? Do you think that maybe the dementors brought back memories for her (similar to Harry's reaction) from CoS when she was controlled by Tom Riddle? > > Another Ginny question: Since I am on Ginny, I have another question. In CoS Ginny sends Harry a singing telegram on Valentine's day. In it she uses the term "the Dark Lord". It seems to me that the only people who refer to Voldemort as Dark Lord are the bad guys, everyone else uses You-Know-Who. This should have been a big hint that Ginny was involved in the bad goings-on when I was reading the book the first time, but I was laughing too hard to notice. Now however, I wonder if this is merely a hint that she was opening the chamber of secrets, or is it a hint of more things to come? What is everyone's opinion? > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone with Yahoo! by Phone. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jedi_master1 at edsamail.com.ph Wed Oct 3 06:25:08 2001 From: jedi_master1 at edsamail.com.ph (Mary Ann Ortiz) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 06:25:08 -0000 Subject: How Fawkes got into the Chamber In-Reply-To: <21.11fde527.28ea9dbd@aol.com> Message-ID: <9peb04+qrna@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27060 I just whipped out my copy of Fantastic Beasts, and it doesn't say that phoenixes can "apparate". But I do wonder how Fawkes ever got in the Chamber.... Hmmmm.... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:06:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Penny & Bryce writes: > > I do, however, still > > want to know *how* Fawkes got into the Chamber of Secrets without > > passing Ron. > > IIRC, Fantastic Beasts says that phoenixes can disappear from one place and reappear in another instantly (like Apparating, I assume). I'm pretty sure that's what the book said, although it might have been the dodo(or it could have been both). If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Wed Oct 3 06:28:54 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 07:28:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] American Magical Government/Schools In-Reply-To: <9pddmk+q98q@eGroups.com> References: <9pct0r+enhf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003072811.00a115a0@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27061 At 23:05 02/10/01, you wrote: >Another location for a wizarding >school that I like is an island in the middle of what the Muggle >world calls the Bermuda triangle, which is where students from the >Carribean would go to school... Barb - Maybe you've hit the reason for all those mysterious happenings in the Bermuda Triangle... Its just the Wizards trying to protect themselves...;) Martin Hooper AIM:martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mediaphen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 06:57:18 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:57:18 +0200 Subject: Wherefore Gryffindor? (was: On Behalf of Lavender and Parvati) References: <9pdc92+s3hd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27062 > Are there any Lee (who I think is hysterical, BTW), Seamus or Dean > apologists out there > --Barb Hi everybody! Oh yes, I'm a total Lee Jordan fan, and I will find some evidence of his bravery. Lemme think... Oh yes, how about this: I can't remember which magazine/institute who did it, but some years back a poll was made on people's biggest fear. Apparently, the #1 fear was speaking in public, rating it above death. To paraphrase Jerry Seinfeld, this means that people would rather be in the coffin than making the speech at the funeral. So, with Lee Jordan and his hilarious comments on the Pitch, he has overcome mankind's greatest fear (speaking in public) and thus proving his enormous courage. Ergo, Lee-Jo is a true Gryff. And here's another one: An anagram of Lee Jordan is "reda lejon", which is Swedish for "proper lions". The Gryffindor animal is... a lion! I rest my case. My two knuts, Martin (who would have added a Lee-Jo quote here, had I had my books at work) Oh, one more thing: Does anybody want to join the "Lee-Jo is the coolest character and ought to be Minister of Magical Sports club"? Entry fee: Come up with a good acronym, and Bob's yer uncle! From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 08:15:34 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:15:34 +0100 Subject: PS/SS Chapters 2 and 3 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27063 Is Dudley's weight a sign of prejudice against big people, or is it just description? I don't think so. I think it's there for two reasons. Firstly, to show how Petunia and Vernon treat Dudley - Dudley's obesity is a sign of his overindulgence, and I agree with all those who have said in the past that this is really a form of abuse. Secondly, it's a way of contrasting the Dursley's treatment of their son with their treatment of Harry. It gives the impression of Harry being half-starved. Where do the Dursleys get the money for Dudley's presents? Well, Vernon Dudley obviously holds quite a senior position, and they don't seem to spend money on expensive holidays etc. So it is no surprise that they can afford such extravagance where Dudley is concerned. Why is the scar lightening shaped? Will that be significant? Dramatic effect? What's up with Mrs. Figg? My own personal theory is that Mrs Figg is aged up to be an old woman, and is really a very glamorous contemporary of James etc. She is grumpy because she is annoyed that she has to keep the disguise up, and also she is fed up that she can't talk to Harry about magic. Therefore, she feels constrained in his presence, and doesn't talk to him about anything other than cats for fear of letting something slip. I did wonder why in that case she didn't simply turn the TV on, but don't electronic things generally work strangely around magic? Hmm, perhaps not in the Potterverse - have to give that one some thought. I don't think that she broke her leg - I think it was an excuse to give Harry a chance to go to the zoo. Is the cabbage smell in her house an indicator of magic? Could be. JKR isn't the only one who seems to associate cabbage with magic. Why didn't Petunia recognize Harry's incidents as signs of magic? I'm sure that she does. She just chooses to ignore that it is the source of Harry's misdemeanours. Why do the Dursleys hate Harry so much? Obvious. They don't want him there. Petunia shows remarkable jealousy and hatred for Lily, so wouldn't want his son there. They think that Harry is a freak and probably worry that he will either harm Dudley, or corrupt him in some way. Also - their mantra is very much Keeping up with the Jones's, and keeping up appearances, and Harry, unfortunately, jeopardises this. How did Harry survive their neglect and abuse? I don't know. Enormous strength of character. I'm linking this with why he isn't more curious about his past, because I think that Harry was mentally and emotionally shut down during the early years of his life with the Dursleys. I think the whole thing has left him numb, as a defence mechanism. Didn't Harry think it was odd that he could hear the snake? Again, lack of curiosity on Harry's part. Did he think that he imagined it? The Letters from No one. How are the letters delivered? Magic! They are self replicating until proper delivery (i.e.. Read by Harry) has been accomplished. Wouldn't Petunia know that the letter was coming? She must have done. She was probably in denial about all the strange things Harry has done and was hoping against hope that he wouldn't be a wizard. Why did Hogwarts wait to send Hagrid to get Harry? I don't know. Perhaps Dumbledore mischievously sent Hagrid because he knew how intimidating his size would be to the Dursleys. Perhaps he thought that Hagrid would be able to cow the Dursleys without resorting to magic, which any other wizard would not be able to do. Also, he was killing two birds with one (philosopher's) stone, because this needed fetching from Diagon Alley. Who did you think was knocking on your first read-through? I loved this part! So exciting! The build up was excellent - it was so obvious that someone was going to come crashing through the door at that point. I didn't know it was going to be Hagrid, but I did assume that it would be someone such as Dumbledore who would be whisking Harry away to a world of magic and away from the Dursleys. Catherine From lake4fam at earthlink.net Wed Oct 3 08:53:26 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 08:53:26 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <9pejm6+ob9j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27064 I have several responses to make, all over the map, and in no particular order. 1st: has anyone else wondered if JKR is not secretly lurking (Is this a tautology?) to harvest ideas either to create wrinkles or to iron them out? I think I would do so... 2nd: to the person(s) who took offense at a posting incorporating a reference the intolerance of Christians/Christianity, may I remind the one(s) that that comment was not intended to be taken personally, and that, in the final analysis, these are "only" mental exercises over a popular work of fiction? (As if!) 3rd: People have been postulating that all sorts of meaningful social commentary or allegorical equivalencies to perplexing moral questions exist in Our Beloved Potterverse. Tolkien, when asked what the One Ring signified (as in the evil of nuclear war, or whatever,) said something to the effect that he had just written a story. It had no "author's message" (quotation marks mine.) Might JKR not have done likewise? 4th: Please don't interpret the above to mean that I disagree with the practice, or that I don't enjoy reading the very clever and well-thought-out expositions of same. 5th: Mega-Evil Villains are so full of their own importance, so convinced of their inevitable triumph, so contemptuous of their opposition, and so preoccupied with their grandiose schemes that they refuse to "sweat the small stuff." Why bother with those silly little details? (i.e., mother's love, checking the foe glass, etc.) That's all (for now.) You might even say, "That's ENOUGH!" and you would be correct. dittany/custodienne who feels privileged being allowed to share your thoughts, and impatiently awaits the arrival of her Hogwarts jacket p.s. I sorted myself into Ravenclaw From allyse1138 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 09:38:11 2001 From: allyse1138 at yahoo.com (Allyse) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 11:38:11 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 1279 In-Reply-To: <1002088301.2296.6663.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003110341.009ebec0@actcom.co.il> No: HPFGUIDX 27065 At 05:51 AM 03/10/01 +0000, you wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch > wrote: > > > Giggly adolescents or not it would seem Lavender at > > least, (and probably Parvati) has her share of > > Gryffindor guts. > > >I'm glad you mentioned that, because I have been unable to justify in >my mind the reason for many of the other Gryffindors to BE >Gryffindors. We've had the Neville apologists (and I'm one of >them ;) ) explaining why Neville should be a Gryffindor, and there's >still, evidently, an ongoing debate about why Hermione is not in >Ravenclaw (I think she's where she belongs), but I could not recall >something that supported Lavender or Parvati being in Gryffindor >until you mentioned the Blast-Ended Skrewts. (Which is still >somewhat tenuous, IMHO.) How about this, then? Before Hermione became part of the triad, Lavender often served as the female foil. Case in point: Her angry defense of Neville when he fell off the broom, which was met with Pansy's scathing question as to whether she prefers chubby crybabies. Hermione was busy muttering scandalous asides at the time. :) A person can possess certain personality traits without necessarily displaying them. The important thing, I think, is what that person values. Harry, for example, is ambitious, and wants to prove himself; but since ambition isn't a personality trait he values, the Sorting Hat understands that he doesn't belong in Slytherin. In the same way, Lavender, Seamus, Parvati, etc. seem to value the Gryffindor traits over those in other houses. It doesn't tell us the degree of those traits in themselves. Allyse From allyse1138 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 10:22:50 2001 From: allyse1138 at yahoo.com (allyse1138 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 10:22:50 -0000 Subject: On Behalf of Lavender, Re: Digest Number 1279 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003110341.009ebec0@actcom.co.il> Message-ID: <9peotq+n7j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27066 Sorry, sorry, sorry! I always mutter about people who don't relable replies to digests and then I do the same thing myself. My sincere apologies. Allyse, who would edit the subject line if there was a way to do so. From klhurt at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 10:42:57 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 03:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FLIRTIAC-related (KwikSpell + Mandrake Juice + Hermione the Cat) + US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <00bd01c14a5c$28783de0$6c90aecb@price> Message-ID: <20011003104257.66112.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27067 --- Tabouli wrote: >my thoughts exactly! Surely Kwikspell >would be totally pointless unless >Squibs had some rudiment of magic, According to the testimonials & blurb, KwikSpell is marketed to people who can *do* magic but not well (think Neville). I still say Squibs canNOT do magic. >After all, Madam Pomfrey didn't use >Mandrake juice to fix Hermione's >accidental cat transformation, The mandrakes weren't ready yet, remember? >which is incidentally, an example of >how a cat transformation spell gone >wrong can be difficult to fix (it took >several weeks to fix her in CoS). It wasn't a spell gone wrong; it was a misused potion. I still think the basic premise of FLIRTIAC, while clever, is impossible. --- John Walton wrote: >I tend to prefer large cities or >places waaaaaaaaaaay out in the >country. New York would be perfect... NYC *would* be perfect for a magic school, but, alas, it's impossible, as is any other metropolitan area: magic en masse causes electrical devices to go haywire. People would notice if there was a section of town where electricity, cell phones, etc. didn't work. That's why I like the idea of the Bermuda Triangle. Also, how about Area 51? Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Oct 3 13:09:10 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 13:09:10 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Smarts In-Reply-To: <00ef01c14bca$fd1e8f80$c4c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9pf2lm+9mi9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27068 Or maybe he's just crazy? 4FR --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > A lot of people have posted here about how dumb Lord Voldemort's been, like > duelling Harry in GoF instead of just killing him. It occurs to me that > Lord Voldemort's been through a _lot_ of dangerous magical transformations > since his Tom Riddle days, and that any or all of these could have seriously > affected his brain or his judgement. You don't necessarily have to be > brilliantly smart to cast spells---otherwise poor Draco Malfoy would be > without his two favorite thugs. > > The brain is about the most delicate part of the body, and even a small > injury can, as I have excellent reasons to know, have catastrophic effects. > The transformations were described by Dumbledore as dangerous, and many of > them may have had side effects---in fact, we know they did, since Lord > Voldemort looks very different than an aged, but still hearty, > Tom-Riddle-who-had-never-gone-bad would look. They may very well have > affected his brain, and he himself might not be aware of this fact-- -my > mother had serious side-effects from a head injury, but she swore up and > down that she was perfectly fine, thank you, and she was NOT hypomanic, or > in need of tranquilizers. (At least, this is what she swore to me-- -after > her death I heard from one of her longtime friends that Mom had admitted to > her that she WAS, after all, hypomanic). Or Voldemort might be aware of the > changes, and either not care or think that they're improvements. > > So Voldemort's spellcasting might be just about as sharp as ever, while his > judgement's severely impaired. It would be interesting to observe the Death > Eaters if they ever came to the conclusion that Voldemort was not as sharp > as he once had been, and wasn't on the ball as much any more. They strike > me as a backstabbing lot, and they might very well be pretending to follow > Voldemort until he destroys all opposition (his spellcasting's still good, > after all) at which point they intend to turn on him and destroy him and > take over the wizarding world, which he so kindly cleared of possible > opposition to their rule. > > Comments? Flames? From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 3 13:14:01 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 13:14:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Smarts In-Reply-To: <00ef01c14bca$fd1e8f80$c4c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9pf2up+4ddh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27069 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > So Voldemort's spellcasting might be just about as sharp as ever, while his > judgement's severely impaired. It would be interesting to observe the Death > Eaters if they ever came to the conclusion that Voldemort was not as sharp > as he once had been, and wasn't on the ball as much any more. They strike > me as a backstabbing lot, and they might very well be pretending to follow > Voldemort until he destroys all opposition (his spellcasting's still good, > after all) at which point they intend to turn on him and destroy him and > take over the wizarding world, which he so kindly cleared of possible > opposition to their rule. > I wouldn't be at all surprised if the DEs challenge Voldemort at a particularly vulnerable moment. We see this all the time in the animal world (the Head Lion has an injury, and the young lions seize the opportunity to make a snack of him). I think all of Voldemort's mistreatment of Wormtail is going to come back to haunt him. In other words, it might not be Lupin who should fear Wormtail's silver hand. Cindy (remembering how the hyenas turned on Scar in the Lion King) From mirzamblack at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 15:39:04 2001 From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 15:39:04 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age and the timeturner Message-ID: <9pfbeo+o0gs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27070 OK, I tried to look if this has already been discussed.. I just wonder, if Hermione used timeturner about one year and had like 3 lessons at the same time, and this lesson may be even double or triple lessons, so doesn't this make Hermione very much older than she should be? Let's imagine, that her days are like 6 hours longer than normal day.. In my opinion, Hermione is actually very much older than she should be.. What do you think? Am I wrong? //Mirzam From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 15:41:18 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] FLIRTIAC-related (KwikSpell + Mandrake Juice + Hermione the Cat) + US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <20011003104257.66112.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011003154118.92113.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27071 --- Kelly Hurt wrote: > NYC *would* be perfect for a magic school, but, > alas, it's impossible, > as is any other metropolitan area: magic en masse > causes electrical > devices to go haywire. People would notice if there > was a section of > town where electricity, cell phones, etc. didn't > work. That's why I > like the idea of the Bermuda Triangle. But what about Diagon Alley, (not to mention Knockturn Alley and the MoM offices) they're right in the middle of London but they don't seem to be affecting the power grid. Some kind of Magical Containment field perhaps? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 16:19:09 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why does Petunia hate magic so much? In-Reply-To: <9pdpnr+57dh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011003161909.94104.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27072 Though usergoogol is apparently unaware of it witchcraft, especially malefic witchcraft is condemned by just about every religion including polytheistic ones. Nor is there any evidence that Petunia is religious or her objections to Wizardry are religiously based. In fact it is made quite clear in the books that her and Vernon's detestation of magic is directly related to their dislike of anything different and unconventional. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 16:33:29 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 16:33:29 -0000 Subject: US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <20011003104257.66112.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pfekp+67i6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27073 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- John Walton wrote: > > >I tend to prefer large cities or places waaaaaaaaaaay out in the > >country. New York would be perfect... > > NYC *would* be perfect for a magic school, but, alas, it's > impossible, as is any other metropolitan area: magic en masse > causes electrical devices to go haywire. People would notice if > there was a section of town where electricity, cell phones, etc. > didn't work. That's why I like the idea of the Bermuda Triangle. Well, that cinched my vote for at least one school being in Amish Country, i.e. Lancaster County and surroundings, Pennsylvania. You couldn't get a much better set-up: - Close to everything from D.C. to New York - No electrical use - Quiet unassuming neighbors who don't want to bother or be bothered And best of all.... - Hex signs everywhere :^) ....Craig From caliburncy at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 16:52:27 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 16:52:27 -0000 Subject: Put-Outer (was Re: Summary/Questions: PS/SS Chapter One) In-Reply-To: <9pe622+8tcb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pffob+np9q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27074 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > What's the deal with the Put-Outer? Why would Dumbledore need a > special device just to put out some streetlights? Was his wand in > the shop for repairs or something? Ooh, a nice question. Here's some possibilities: 1) Up until this point, none of the strange occurences (mass owls flying by day, cats reading signs) has been identified as being related to wizards. JKR could be putting off this revelation until later, and hence, for Dumbledore to use a wand so soon would tip her (albeit rather obvious) hand before she wants to. As it is the scene maintains a certain amount of unfamiliarity that using a wand no longer has in our fantasy-exposed society. 2) At the time when all these wizard spells were discovered/invented, electricity did not exist so there may not be traditional spells (those using wands, incantations, potions, etc.) to affect electrical devices. I certainly can't think of any that we know of. Hence the put-outer, presumably a more recently designed device in wizard society, was necessary for such a purpose. Hmm, I had another answer yesterday when I read this message, but I seem to have forgotten it. -Luke From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 16:57:11 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 16:57:11 -0000 Subject: Weekly Summary: PS/SS Chapters 2 and 3 In-Reply-To: <00e501c14bb3$27cc1580$7c44a480@cp124541b> Message-ID: <9pfg17+ekh8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27075 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., - Joy - wrote: > ---------------------------------------- > Is Dudley's weight a sign of prejudice against big people, or is it just > description? Description. It's the result of him being SPOILED, eating too much, not exercising enough etc. (Just look at the way he reacts not getting more presents than he did LAST year / Harry having NONE and not complaining) He's just SPOILED - literally. > Where do the Dursleys get the money for Dudley's presents? Vernon works - and Petunia/Vernon aren't the ONLY one's buying him presents. > Why is the scar lightening shaped? Will that be significant? It was result of Avada Kedavra - a spell that kills with no other mark in body - like high voltage electricity. (symbolically - a lightning) > What's up with Mrs. Figg? She's a witch who needed to go to Diagon Alley and couldn't have Dursleys finding out... > Is the cabbage smell in her house an indicator of magic? It's the odor of aging potion - that makes her look old to have an excuse (in Dursley's eyes) to be weird. > Why didn't Petunia recognize Harry's incidents as signs of magic? Because she - and Vernon - do all they can to *pretend* magic doesn't exist! They want to get it out of Harry. > Why do the Dursleys hate Harry so much? They don't hate him - they just hate the magic and want Harry to stop doing magical things! > How did Harry survive their neglect and abuse? He knows they're not his parents. Mrs. Figg was relatively nice to him so he had at least one kind adult in the neighbourhood. > Didn't Harry think it was odd that he could hear the snake? At first, but then he figured it as an everyday-matter. > Why is the light green? Because Avada Kedavra curse is like that. (Why that curse is green... mmhh.. Green is symbol of Life the curse takes away?) > Why isn't Harry more curious about his past? He was - but because Dursleys punish him for asking questions, (without giving much of an answer) he learned to be less curious about them. > ---------------------------------------------- > Does Mrs. Figg give Harry chocolate because the Dursleys are like dementors? No - she gives chocolate, because it helps for depression. > How are the letters delivered? By magic, of course! > Wouldn't Petunia know that the letter was coming? She denied it! She refuses all magic - not that it helped. > Why did Hogwarts wait to send Hagrid to get Harry? It's the ordinary way to send a letter. > How does the school track Harry's location? They don't, really. The envelopes' address changes magically to the specific address during situations. A destroyed letter automatically calls for more - or informs the sender it was NOT delivered to the adressant. > Who did you think was knocking on your first read-through? I don't remember that... From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 17:01:49 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:01:49 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age and the timeturner In-Reply-To: <9pfbeo+o0gs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfg9t+4d6e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27076 That explains how she was having breasts as early as 14 I think... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > > OK, I tried to look if this has already been discussed.. > > I just wonder, if Hermione used timeturner about one year and had > like 3 lessons at the same time, and this lesson may be even double > or triple lessons, so doesn't this make Hermione very much older than > she should be? > > Let's imagine, that her days are like 6 hours longer than normal > day.. In my opinion, Hermione is actually very much older than she > should be.. > > What do you think? Am I wrong? > > //Mirzam From caliburncy at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 17:08:04 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:08:04 -0000 Subject: Put-Outer (was Re: Summary/Questions: PS/SS Chapter One) In-Reply-To: <9pffob+np9q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfglk+mpj3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27077 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > 2) At the time when all these wizard spells were > discovered/invented, electricity did not exist Aah, what a great blunder by me. What I meant, of course, was that electricity was not yet harnessed by humans, not that it didn't "exist". Back, L.O.O.N.S., back I say! And another possibility I left off (not that I think it likely): It is also conceivable that this was used as an opportunity to introduce a new magical device in an innocuous fashion before incorporating it into a major plot point later on. I find this not too promising, because I don't really see what incredibly imaginative twists could hinge on the function of a put-outer. But anyway, for your consideration . . . -Luke From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 17:09:28 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:09:28 -0000 Subject: How Fawkes got into the Chamber In-Reply-To: <9peb04+qrna@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfgo8+2hr9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27078 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mary Ann Ortiz" wrote: > > I just whipped out my copy of Fantastic Beasts, and it doesn't say > that phoenixes can "apparate". But I do wonder how Fawkes ever got > in the Chamber.... Hmmmm.... Maybe it has something to do with the Core of Harry's Wand being of Fawkes? From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 17:12:36 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:12:36 -0000 Subject: Put-Outer (was Re: Summary/Questions: PS/SS Chapter One) In-Reply-To: <9pfglk+mpj3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfgu4+10etq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27079 Well, someone may seal Harry(or someone else) inside an electrical fence and put-outer gets them out! From vderark at bccs.org Wed Oct 3 17:30:26 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:30:26 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age and the timeturner In-Reply-To: <9pfg9t+4d6e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfhvi+ju5r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27080 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > > or triple lessons, so doesn't this make Hermione very much older > than > > she should be? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote: > That explains how she was having breasts as early as 14 I think... While I doubt whether this is really on-topic, I will just mention that 14 is NOT young for that sort of thing. I teach in a middle school filled with 11-14 year old girls and have a 13-year-old daughter--take my word for it. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon which does not have anything at all about this particular topic http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From joym999 at aol.com Wed Oct 3 17:37:51 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:37:51 -0000 Subject: FLIRTIAC-related (KwikSpell + Mandrake Juice + Hermione the Cat) + US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <20011003104257.66112.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pfidf+e5kj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27081 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > NYC *would* be perfect for a magic school, but, alas, it's impossible, > as is any other metropolitan area: magic en masse causes electrical > devices to go haywire. People would notice if there was a section of > town where electricity, cell phones, etc. didn't work. True, but sounds like a bit of a Flint to me. Diagon Alley is both full of magic and located in the middle of London. Of course, it's possible that Diagon Alley has some sort of magic field around it so that its magicness doesn't escape into the muggle surroundings. Or that the Diagon Alley isn't actually physically in London -- maybe only the Three Broomsticks is in London and the entrance is some sort of portkey-type device that transports anyone who walks thru it. If either of these possibilities is true, then a similar setup could exist in NYC. In fact, I maintain that New Hogwarts is located somewhere on the West Side of Manhatten, in midtown, not far from the Javits Center in a building that only looks like a small, dirty, abandoned two-story warehouse with a sign on the door that says CONDEMNED - KEEP OUT. --Joywitch From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 3 17:39:32 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:39:32 -0000 Subject: Put-Outer In-Reply-To: <9pffob+np9q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfigk+tb61@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27082 Joy wrote: > > What's the deal with the Put-Outer? Why would Dumbledore need a > > special device just to put out some streetlights? Was his wand in > > the shop for repairs or something? > Luke wrote: > Ooh, a nice question. Here's some possibilities: > > 1) Up until this point, none of the strange occurences (mass owls > flying by day, cats reading signs) has been identified as being > related to wizards. JKR could be putting off this revelation until > later, and hence, for Dumbledore to use a wand so soon would tip her > (albeit rather obvious) hand before she wants to. As it is the scene > maintains a certain amount of unfamiliarity that using a wand no > longer has in our fantasy-exposed society. > > 2) At the time when all these wizard spells were discovered/invented, > electricity did not exist so there may not be traditional spells > (those using wands, incantations, potions, etc.) to affect electrical > devices. I certainly can't think of any that we know of. Hence the > put-outer, presumably a more recently designed device in wizard > society, was necessary for such a purpose. > Ah, the Put-Outer. The Put-Outer bothers me because it is so inconsistent with what we know about wand use (and because the name is kind of awkward and not as creative as other magical devices like Pensieve). So here's a big old elaborate theory with precious little basis in canon to explain the Put-Outer and other issues about magic on Privet Drive. The theory is that Dumbledore certainly could have used his wand to put out the street lamps. But anytime a wizard uses a wand, it generates palpable energy. We have seen this a few times, like Voldemort's Crucio spell cracking Riddle's headstone in GoF, and Harry reporting feeling spells whiz past his head. That wand energy gives away the wizard's location, like sound gives away a submarine's position on sonar. Perhaps wizards are able to locate other wizards by tracking the energy of their wand use, and the Put-Outer does not generate this energy. Why would a powerful wizard like Dumbledore care if DEs could track his wand use? Although Dumbledore knows Voldemort has just fallen, he still has to be concerned about the DEs tracking his position to Privet Drive. This is a part of the protection surrounding Privet Drive that has kept Harry safe while in the Dursley's care -- for lack of a better term, a "force field" that makes it difficult for a Dark Wizard to locate Harry. Unless magic is used at Privet Drive and gives away Harry's position, that is. Consequently, Dumbledore does not want to use his wand at the Durley's house to avoid allowing anyone to find out where Harry is. That is also why the MoM quickly knows about and freaks out whenever they think Harry uses magic at Privet Drive, although they don't seem to care when the underage Weasleys do it. The dialogue between McGonnagal and Dumbledore could be read to support this idea a little bit. Voldemort has fallen, and McGonnagal is complaining about Dedalus Diggle shooting stars or something. JKR makes it sound like the concern is that Muggles will find out. But perhaps the real trouble is that Dumbledore's "troops" are celebrating with wands and giving away their position, which might be a bad idea if the DEs are planning to rally around a new leader and continue the fight. This idea also makes sense in light of the Dursleys' aversion to magic, and Vernon's decision to flee when the letters start arriving. If Dumbledore explains this "sonar" issue to the Dursleys in his letter, they would live in mortal fear that Harry's little bursts of magic will give them away and a band of dark wizards will descend on the house. So they would overreact whenever Harry or anyone else uses magic there. One other fact supports this theory (sort of). MoM is having no luck finding Sirius. He has no wand, so doesn't send off these little wand energy blasts. If Sirius were using a wand, MoM might be able to find him more easily. I like the idea of Dumbledore using the Put-Outer because wizards need a little help to deal with things like electricity. But then again, Mr. Weasley apparently had no trouble bewitching the Ford Anglia, which has electrical components, although he may have had to use special tools to do it. The Put-Outer does tend to help us along with another recurring question -- what do wizards keep with them when they Apparate? The answer is apparently that they can keep magical devices with them. This assumes, of course, that Dumbledore Apparated to Privet Drive instead of arriving as an Animagus (like a bee or something). OK. Now you can throw ripe tomatoes. Cindy From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 17:41:25 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:41:25 -0000 Subject: I hope no one objects but I would like to know if anyone... Message-ID: <9pfik5+4sec@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27083 Does anyone think that JKR has made any of the characters homosexual? Obviously she won't write anything blatant or develop any same sex relationships within the books, because of their audience. But if any of the characters are gay, who do you think is. From joym999 at aol.com Wed Oct 3 17:43:48 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:43:48 -0000 Subject: US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <9pfidf+e5kj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfiol+95gh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27084 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: another message with the wrong subject heading. I apologize for not changing the subject heading to the above in my previous message. I now join Allyse in the Inaccurate Subject Headings dungeon, where Mr. Filch will be suspending us from our ankles for a few days. Oh well, maybe I'll get some work done while I'm there. --Joywitch, who is very ashamed From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 17:31:25 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:31:25 -0000 Subject: why do you get the idea that snape loved lily Message-ID: <9pfi1d+4fgq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27085 except that it explains the reason why snape hates harry so much, what other proof is there that snape loved lily From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 3 17:52:51 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:52:51 -0000 Subject: What would it take to really surprise you? Message-ID: <9pfj9j+tlcb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27086 The only sure thing about OoP is that there will be surprises, and I'll bet this group has figured out a few of them. But what would it really take to really blindside a L.O.O.N.? There are two plot developments that JKR could use that would really throw me for a loop. The first involves Snape. We've all speculated about whether he is a vampire, and most people do not think so, even though JKR has left clues to push us in that direction. But what if Snape if part dementor? He likes dark places, he "glides" (like dementors do), he's not very nice. Now, I'll admit that I can't wrap my mind around one of Snape's wizard ancestors having relations with a Dementor, but then again, Fleur is part Veela and Hagrid is part giant. The idea is definitely wild. The other wild plot twist involves Karkarov. We have been led to believe that he fled and that Voldemort will look for him and kill him in short order. But what if Dumbledore decides to give Karkarov a second chance (and forgives that unfortunate spitting incident) and hires him as the next DADA teacher? The students certainly need someone well versed in the dark arts to train them up for the coming battle, and Karkarov has seen Voldemort's camp from the inside, whereas Moody has never been on the inside. Anyone else have a wild and highly improbable theory they'd like to share? Cindy From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Oct 3 18:29:05 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:29:05 -0000 Subject: Malfoy, Crabbe, & Goyle in book 5 In-Reply-To: <9pe62p+r0ei@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfldh+6esg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27087 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bookraptor11 at y... wrote: > In book five, do you think Draco and the others will come back to > Hogwart's as students? I think their parent's would see this as a > good way of trying to keep an eye on Dumbledore. Also, from what > I've seen of Dumbledore, I don't see him barring them. He would > believe that they were not beyond redemption and would want to give > them every chance to choose differently from their parents. > > However, with concrete evidence that Voldemort lives and is massing > his forces, > how are they going to get any teaching and learning done? What will > happen among the Slytherins, since not all of them are V. supporters? > I'm not sure if I'm putting that right, but that house is going to be > a hellish place, IMO Good question. Dumbledore says at the feast that everyone present in the Great Hall will always be welcome at Hogwarts...MCG were present too, so this includes them. Therefore, I doubt Dumbledore will expell them or even discourage them from attending Hogwarts. I have a feeling the MCG will be attending Hogwarts in Book 5. Why? I have had the impression that Lucius Malfoy used Draco as his informant during CoS since I read the book. Strategically, MCG are well-placed to be conduits of information to the Dark Side about the goings-on in Hogwarts. Milz From mirzamblack at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 18:29:26 2001 From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:29:26 -0000 Subject: I hope no one objects but I would like to know if anyone... In-Reply-To: <9pfik5+4sec@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfle6+jvcp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27088 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > Does anyone think that JKR has made any of the characters homosexual? > Obviously she won't write anything blatant or develop any same sex > relationships within the books, because of their audience. But if any > of the characters are gay, who do you think is. I have been thinking this too, because of the prejudice theme. And really why not? Those people who can not stand gays in the world are already hating Potters because of the magic.. OK this was a pretty rough generalization, I'm sorry. //Mirzam From mirzamblack at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 18:31:47 2001 From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:31:47 -0000 Subject: I hope no one objects but I would like to know if anyone... In-Reply-To: <9pfle6+jvcp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pflij+e7un@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27089 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > > Does anyone think that JKR has made any of the characters > homosexual? > > Obviously she won't write anything blatant or develop any same sex > > relationships within the books, because of their audience. But if > any > > of the characters are gay, who do you think is. > > I have been thinking this too, because of the prejudice theme. And > really why not? Those people who can not stand gays in the world are > already hating Potters because of the magic.. OK this was a pretty > rough generalization, I'm sorry. > I'm so sorry, but I forgott(?). Who would be gay.. Neville? Or Severus perhaps, you never know. //Mirzam From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 18:35:38 2001 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The boy who lived In-Reply-To: <1002088301.2296.6663.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20011003183538.50744.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27090 A couple of weeks ago i rented a movie about Fairies, this one with the two little girls who are cousins, they borrow dad's camera and take pictures of their friends the fairies... At the beginning, there is a scene in London of people entering a theatre to go see Peter Pan, and i noticed the whole tittle: "Peter Pan - The Boy who didn't (or was it "wouldn't"?) grow up". I found it cute, since that is one of my favorite sentences in the HP series: To Harry Potter, the Boy who Lived! Maria ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 18:35:42 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:35:42 -0000 Subject: What would it take to really surprise you? In-Reply-To: <9pfj9j+tlcb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pflpu+6a6b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27091 Improbable: Harry leaving Dursleys and moving to Sirius/Weasleys/on his own permanently. It's a pattern he always begins there, you know. Draco Malfoy helping Harry out of trouble so that he has nothing to gain from it. (not a life-threat so that he'd get Harry into life- debt to him) (Something I've read in some great fanfics) That Harry's parent(s) are NOT dead but instead have lost their memory - or are otherwised restored so that Harry can actually meet them and move in with them. Ghosting I'd be free to go but not that they didn't die or are mystically returned to life. ************ Personally, I think that the place Harry will visit is Godric Hollow - and he'd meet his parent's ghosts... Mmm.. Apparating practice? Then the ghosts tell everyone that Peter Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper and the murderer. James might decide to Haunt The Ministry of Magic Law until Sirius Black's name is fully cleaned - and the Daily Prophet tells it ALL...(Who'd question the voice of them??) - and well, Cedrics parents (Harry's heroism in bringing him back MUST be rewarded!!!) (Whom Cedric's ghost is visiting)... **************** One thing that would REALLY surprise me: the godfather Sirius does NOT visit his godson Harry, while being in the neighbourhood on Harry's birthday fetching Mrs. Figg! From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 3 18:38:15 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 19:38:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <9pfekp+67i6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27092 rcraigharman at hotmail.com wrote: >> NYC *would* be perfect for a magic school, but, alas, it's >> impossible, as is any other metropolitan area: magic en masse >> causes electrical devices to go haywire. People would notice if >> there was a section of town where electricity, cell phones, etc. >> didn't work. Ever been in the NYC subway? ::grins:: Cellphones don't work, the lights flicker sometimes... I rest my case ^.^ --John, who thinks that the subways are moved along by fairies, which accounts for the little sparks under the wheels of the subway cars ^.^ ____________________________________________ Remember: Socks then Shoes. John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 18:42:36 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FLIRTIAC-related (KwikSpell + Mandrake Juice + Hermione the Cat) + US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <9pfidf+e5kj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011003184236.22330.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27093 --- Joy M wrote: > In fact, I maintain that New > Hogwarts is located somewhere on the West Side > of Manhatten, in > midtown, not far from the Javits Center in a > building that only looks > like a small, dirty, abandoned two-story warehouse > with a sign on the > door that says CONDEMNED - KEEP OUT. I must say I like the description. Is it a boarding school or a day school, (or both) and how do students get inside without attracting attention? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 18:47:10 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] American Magical Government/Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011003184710.23328.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27094 Since the 'Department of Magic' like the MoM doubtless liases with the Muggle government it probably is headquartered in Washington DC. However since we are a federal republic it seems highly likely that there would be State Departments of Magic which would be located places like Salem, New Orleans, New York, etc. I now lean to the opinion there would be four large magical schools: Ravenhouse in Salem, (founded c. 1660 by Ravenclaw graduates); Griffen's Hundred in Virginia, (founded c. 1680 by a former Gryffindor); the Lully School in Southern California, (founded c. 1700 and named in honor of Spanish Philosopher and Wizard Ramon Lully); and finally the Smoking Hills School in Kansas, (founded c. 1870 by a commitee of European and Native American Wizards and Witches). And four smaller schools: The Hexen School of Spellcasting in Pennsylvania, (founded 1785 by German Wizards); Coeur du Sable in New Orleans Louisiana, (founded c. 1820 by a group of French and African Witches); The Lung-Wang School in San Francisco's Chinatown, (founded by Chinese Wizards c. 1860); and the Blitzen School of the Magical Arts in Minnesota, (founded 1901 by Heimdall Blitzen formerly a professor at Durmstrang). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 18:50:22 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:50:22 -0000 Subject: US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pfmle+seqh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27095 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > >> NYC *would* be perfect for a magic school, but, alas, it's > >> impossible, as is any other metropolitan area: magic en masse > >> causes electrical devices to go haywire. People would notice if > >> there was a section of town where electricity, cell phones, etc. > >> didn't work. > > Ever been in the NYC subway? ::grins:: Cellphones don't work, the lights > flicker sometimes... We think our machines are disoperating. (Never been to NY but I've been in train where lights went out in one car at least, in a tunnel where my cell-phone won't work... Compass won't work under power-lines. Maybe making the place look like an abandoned iron-mine would do the trick? People would blame it on magnetism... But, about diving equipment (Second Task) - it's not electrically based. No reason why it wouldn't work, is there? Hmm.. Missing persons who are never found - did they end up in a magic place??? From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 18:51:35 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:51:35 -0000 Subject: Put-Outer (was Re: Summary/Questions: PS/SS Chapter One) In-Reply-To: <9pfgu4+10etq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pfmnn+9vs9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27096 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote: > Well, someone may seal Harry(or someone else) inside an electrical > fence and put-outer gets them out! Somehow when I read about the put-outer, I thought that the street lamps for Little Whinging might still be gas-lit.... ....Craig From lucy at luphen.co.uk Wed Oct 3 19:05:20 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:05:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG) References: <20011002033037.15539.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006c01c14c3e$8e411dc0$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27097 Surely the book should be called OoP - Phoenix does NOT start with an F!! Lucy, a well known pedant. ----- Original Message ----- From: laura hickman To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 4:30 AM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG) There has been talk that the book will come out in feb of '02, and if it does, then it will only be a few months, not 10!!! Hope so! Laura H. Waid animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com or lhickman at home.com > > > Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another > 10 months for > OoF) > > > > I hope it is no MORE that 10 months. > > > > -Peter > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From margdean at erols.com Wed Oct 3 18:39:58 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 14:39:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] why do you get the idea that snape loved lily References: <9pfi1d+4fgq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BBB5B7E.A0577CF2@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27098 rowanbrookt at yahoo.com wrote: > > except that it explains the reason why snape hates harry so much, what > other proof is there that snape loved lily No proof, really, in the sense of textual evidence. It just seemed to make sense to a lot of us that the motivation (or one of them) behind Snape's hatred of James Potter (which gets transferred to Harry) was good old sexual jealousy. I mean, Quidditch prowess? Unto the second generation? Get REAL! --Margaret Dean From lucy at luphen.co.uk Wed Oct 3 19:17:18 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:17:18 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's Parents References: <20011001224333.37716.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009801c14c40$15ac0ee0$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27099 It also produces the question of whether wizards that feel inadequate generally use such things, but perhaps that's straying from the subject somewhat!! Lucy, who now has a really weird mental image of Hagrid's parents! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's Parents One of the disadvantages of being a grownup fan of Harry Potter is one finds oneself thinking about the - er - physical rammifications of a relationship between a giant and a normal sized human. However since the human in question *is* a wizard I imagine engorgement spells were used as seemed appropriate. --- k_wayment at hotmail.com wrote: > Hello! > > I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I must > have not been a > member at the time. I was wondering how Hagrid's dad > could have been a > wizard and his mother a giant. I'm not going to get > too technical, but > really--a giant woman and a small man...think about > it. > Any ideas? > ~Kyli *who probably thinks about Harry Potter > enough to last her a > life time and a half.* > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 19:52:01 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's Parents In-Reply-To: <009801c14c40$15ac0ee0$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <20011003195201.49291.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27100 --- Lucy Austin wrote: > It also produces the question of whether wizards > that feel inadequate generally use such things, but > perhaps that's straying from the subject somewhat!! This may not be a topic we really want to pursue... :) > Lucy, who now has a really weird mental image of > Hagrid's parents! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:43 PM > Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid's Parents > > > One of the disadvantages of being a grownup > fan of > Harry Potter is one finds oneself thinking about > the - > er - physical rammifications of a relationship > between > a giant and a normal sized human. However since > the > human in question *is* a wizard I imagine > engorgement > spells were used as seemed appropriate. > > --- k_wayment at hotmail.com wrote: > > Hello! > > > > I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I > must > > have not been a > > member at the time. I was wondering how Hagrid's > dad > > could have been a > > wizard and his mother a giant. I'm not going to > get > > too technical, but > > really--a giant woman and a small man...think > about > > it. > > Any ideas? > > ~Kyli *who probably thinks about Harry Potter > > enough to last her a > > life time and a half.* > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any > phone. > http://phone.yahoo.com > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of > Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we > are united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for > details. > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 19:54:04 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Put-Outer In-Reply-To: <9pfmnn+9vs9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011003195404.3181.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27101 --- rcraigharman at hotmail.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote: > > Well, someone may seal Harry(or someone else) > inside an electrical > > fence and put-outer gets them out! > > Somehow when I read about the put-outer, I thought > that the street > lamps for Little Whinging might still be gas-lit.... Now there's a thought. Personally I just put the 'puter-outer' down as a cute gadget and Dumbledore obviously likes gadgets, (his office is filled with silvery whirly things after all). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 20:01:37 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] why do you get the idea that snape loved lily In-Reply-To: <3BBB5B7E.A0577CF2@erols.com> Message-ID: <20011003200137.52961.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27102 Personally I see no indication or necessity for Snape having any interest at all in Lily Evans. He makes it quite clear he hated James, (and the other marauders) and now Harry for their 'arrogance' and because they constantly break rules and get away with it. Personally I can empathize, it would be frustrating and infuriating to see somebody apparently getting away with murder - especially if it also seemed to you like you and your gang were always getting punished for things others didn't, (I'm not saying this was necessarily the case just that it may have looked that way to the young Snape). This percieved injustice may be the reason Snape so obviously favors the Slytherins, maybe he feels like he's just making up for the prejudice they face from other teachers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From joym999 at aol.com Wed Oct 3 20:38:00 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 20:38:00 -0000 Subject: HPfGU Contest #15 reminder Message-ID: <9pfsv8+it49@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27103 In my last message I admonished everyone to NOT forget about this week's contest. Apparently, my message was scrambled somewhere in Cyberspace and instead most of you have FORGOTTEN about this weeks contest. As a result, this Contestmeister has spent most of this week staring forlornly at her empty mailbox. However, it's not too late to remedy the situation, as I am going to prolong everyone's agony by keeping the contest open until I get a few replies. So, just buckle down and write something to keep me from whining, and you will be rewarded by a bright shiny new HP-themed puzzle next week. OK, here goes: Way back when, pigwidgeon37 said: ".. it is never made clear who nominates or elects the Minister of Magic." and Lyda Clunas speculated that "I'd imagine that there's some sort of board of Ministry officials or such, but who knows, perhaps it's a popular election. That would be interesting..." Interesting, indeed. Let's suppose there is an election and wizards and witches like Dumbledore, Fudge, Crouch, McGonagall, etc. had to run for office. What would their election campaigns be like? You tell us. Write a political slogan, campaign ad, or anything else campaign-related for a candidate for Minister of Magic. Your candidate can be a known HP character, or a character you make up. You can even run for Minister of Magic yourself. (Make the most of it...you're not likely to get another opportunity.) As an example, I suspect that if Gilderoy Lockhart were running for MoM, his campaign slogan would be something along the line of: "Vote for Lockhart -- The Only Wizard with a Smile Dazzling Enough to Defeat the Dark Lord!" Email your entry to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com or to the above address. (Make sure you save your entry, and send it a second time if you don't receive a response from me.) You've got another week or so. May the best wizard win. --Joywitch From ebonyink at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 20:44:49 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 20:44:49 -0000 Subject: Request for Anti-HP Video Message-ID: <9pftc1+d755@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27104 Hi, all-- While on the road this evening, I was listening to my favorite radio talk station and was electrified by the following news. Forgive me if this has already been reported. It seems that a few notables in the evangelical, fundamentalist, and Pentecostal Christian communities want to organize a series of mass protests against the Harry Potter movie. There is evidently even a new video, "Harry Potter: Witchcraft Repackaged--Making Evil Look Innocent", that is now available. A British evangelist named Carole (didn't catch the name) was the one talking to the host about it... do not know if she's the one directly responsible or not. Does anyone know of this video? Please e-mail me off list... I'd like to view it without paying the $50 requested donation to the program I was listening to. Even if that's not possible, I still want to review the video for the group. This may not seem like a big deal to many of you. Rest assured that this can become a very big deal indeed. I am tired of hearing certain Christians bashing these books--and I am tired of certain folks in HP fandom in turn bashing Christianity. Again, I think that HP4GU ought to have *something* on the Web that answers these protests via educating the "bashers" on both sides of the equation. The Religion FAQ is a good idea, but I'd love an information page pertaining to this. If you're interested, please let me know. Thanks for listening. Back to your regularly scheduled activities-- Ebony AKA AngieJ From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Oct 3 20:46:27 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 20:46:27 -0000 Subject: US Magic School Locale - a bit OT In-Reply-To: <20011003184236.22330.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pftf3+m1i2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27105 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch > --- Joy M wrote: > In fact, I maintain that New Hogwarts is located somewhere on the West Side of Manhatten, in midtown, not far from the Javits Center in a building that only looks like a small, dirty, abandoned two-story warehousewith a sign on the door that says CONDEMNED - KEEP OUT.> Rowena responded: I must say I like the description. Is it a boarding school or a day school, (or both) and how do students get inside without attracting attention?> I have a way to steer this back on topic, so bear with me. As far as a witchraft and wizardry school going unnoticed in NYC - hey, this *is* NYC we're talking about. It takes a hell of a lot for New Yorkers to notice anything "unusual" going on, especially because so many unusual things happen here constantly; just walk around the East Village (or the Bronx) for 15 minutes and you'll see what I mean. Besides, it's just like what Stan said in PoA: muggles never notice nuffink. See? I brought it back on topic. What a good little List Elf I am! --Smarty jenny elf, feeling pretty good about that, and definitely thinking a magic school should be in NYC so she can teach there ******************************************************** From bkdelong at pobox.com Wed Oct 3 20:48:45 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 16:48:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Request for Anti-HP Video In-Reply-To: <9pftc1+d755@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20011003164828.054f0020@brain-stream.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27106 At 08:44 PM 10/03/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Again, I think that HP4GU ought to have *something* on the Web that >answers these protests via educating the "bashers" on both sides of >the equation. The Religion FAQ is a good idea, but I'd love an >information page pertaining to this. If you're interested, please >let me know. Here's more info: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_08_19_archive.html#5197006 -- B.K. DeLong bkdelong at pobox.com 617.877.3271 http://www.brain-stream.com Play. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. http://www.attrition.org Security. http://www.artemisiabotanicals.com Herb. From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 3 21:06:45 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 21:06:45 -0000 Subject: Curse Marks, American Wizarding Locales, and Parents Message-ID: <9pful5+ufbc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27107 One of the questions for one of the most recent summaries (I should get started on mine, they're due in 3 weeks)had to do with how Harry got his scar and all that good stuff. Someone commented on the Avada Kedavra curse and said it is a curse that kills without leaving a mark, much like high voltage electricity. It is this statement I would like to refute. The main thing being, high voltage electricity will usually leave to marks ... an in and an out. There will be burns where the electricity enters the body and if it is high voltage, usually a gaping hole where it exits. The other thing is this: if Avada Kedavra is the curse that kills without leaving a mark, the Riddle family, the spider in DADA, how did Harry get his scar from it? Perhaps the scar did not come from the curse? hmmmmmm. I definitely agree with the NYC school of thought as far as a Daigon Alley type place would be. Yes, John, it is fairies that make the subway go :) But as far as a school being there, I would have to disagree. Hogwarts isn't in London. I would have to lean toward Amish country for our big east coast school. And Area 51 is definitely a great locale for a western states school. Coincedentally, is used to live about 20 minutes from where Groom Lake supposedly is ... never really saw anything wierd, but heard strange noises every now and then. ANd for our friends in the displaced northern state of Florida, can you think of a better place for a Diagon Alley then Key West? The entrance is obviously on Duval St. somewhere. Wow. Sometimes it isn't good to have a vivid imagination. When I read the post about Hagrid's parents, I got all kinds of pictures in my head. You guys need to not do things like that to me. :) And whoever suggested Harry meeting his parents ghosts ... I LOVE IT! I think it would be awesome for him to finally be able to talk with them and tell them how much he misses them and loves them, and vice versa. I think it would be good for Harry to hear someone in a parental capacity to tell him how much they love him. Well, that's it for now, I do hope you all have a pleasant Wednesday evening ... I'm very excited that a new episode of The West Wing is on tonight! YAH!!!! Michelle :) <---If Jed Bartlett (Martin Sheen) were president, we'd have already pressed the big red ass kicking button! :) p.s. Am I allowed to say that? :) From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 3 21:25:00 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 16:25:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] American Magical Government/Schools References: <20011003184710.23328.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BBB822C.3010101@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27108 Hi -- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > I now lean to the opinion there would be four large > magical schools: Ravenhouse in Salem, (founded c. 1660 > by Ravenclaw graduates); Griffen's Hundred in > Virginia, (founded c. 1680 by a former Gryffindor); > the Lully School in Southern California, (founded c. > 1700 and named in honor of Spanish Philosopher and > Wizard Ramon Lully); and finally the Smoking Hills > School in Kansas, (founded c. 1870 by a commitee of > European and Native American Wizards and Witches). > And four smaller schools: The Hexen School of > Spellcasting in Pennsylvania, (founded 1785 by German > Wizards); Coeur du Sable in New Orleans Louisiana, > (founded c. 1820 by a group of French and African > Witches); The Lung-Wang School in San Francisco's > Chinatown, (founded by Chinese Wizards c. 1860); and > the Blitzen School of the Magical Arts in Minnesota, > (founded 1901 by Heimdall Blitzen formerly a professor > at Durmstrang). Well, since Texas does have one of the 2 professional US Quidditch franchises identified by JKR in QTTA, I think it's only fitting that Texas (which, btw, is a huge chunk of American real estate to just ignore -- ) should have one of the larger American wizarding schools. We Texans on HP4GU-Texas figure it could be located easily enough in the vast unsettled lands of western Texas where the Sweetwater All-Stars franchise is, in the Hill Country of central Texas, in the Valley, in the piney woods of Eastern Texas ... lots of places. But, there simply *must* be a Texas wizarding school. If California gets 2 schools ... Texas should have at least one after all. Penny (native Texan through & through) > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. > http://phone.yahoo.com > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, > we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. > We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims > are identical and our hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or > the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 3 21:38:46 2001 From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 21:38:46 -0000 Subject: A couple of thoughts about the Dursleys Message-ID: <9pg0h6+um8f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27109 A thought just kindda popped up today. I was thinking about why JKR made Vernon a person who works in a drill company. Well... what do drills do?... They bore. And bore has two meanings right? Definition 1: To drill a hole in the wall. Definition 2: To weary by being dull. Hope no one's pointed that one out before or else I'd be the one who is boring... The second thing that I was thinking of was that it could be possible that Petunia and Lily are twin sisters. Their sons are around the same age, and I can't remember if there was anywhere in the book that says that one is older than the other. I thought of this because of in the GoF, we find out about Parvati's sister who is in Ravenclaw. It just kindda highlights the fact that twins ARE different individuals. Sharlene From lucy at luphen.co.uk Wed Oct 3 21:50:35 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 22:50:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New commercial References: <9pdvrd+lult@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007201c14c55$708ceea0$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27110 Thanks. It is somewhat non-obvious, so for those who hadn't realised, (with the Windows Media version of the video using Internet Explorer, at any rate) you can right-click on the tiny video, and choose full-screen. Of course, it doesn't add any more detail to the picture, but it makes it much easier to see, and the quality at full screen is quite reasonable with the 300k version. Stephen, using Lucy's account. ----- Original Message ----- From: lumen_dei at yahoo.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 4:14 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] New commercial Hello, just wanted to let everyone know that Warner Brother's has the new commercial loaded on their site. http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/article.j sp?id=TV-Spot We, at the Harry Potter Philosopher's Shop, have added some of the stills under the Press Page. Why not check them out? Thanks! http://www.the-sorting-hat.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 21:57:10 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] A couple of thoughts about the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <9pg0h6+um8f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011003215710.18244.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27111 However, going with the Parvati and her sister... wouldn't that mean that both Lily and Petunia both would have magical powers, if identical but if they were feturnal (i know i spelled that one wrong)twins then maybe one of them could be magical and maybe one without magic. However, I still wonder if Petunia is magical and hides it now to be with Vernon... in her perfect little drillingly boring life!!!! The more I think about maybe Petunia is just jealous, maybe because she wasn't good enough at magic to go to Hogwarts... an idea that JKR really hasn't pushed, about what happens if a child of a magical family is a squib. Also, do we know that Harry's grandparents were magical... another avenue JKR has not really written about. Sorry, between a bad day at work, I've been doing some thinking and wondering what will be shown to us, and if any other weird ideas would come to me. However, I will tell you after the day I had today, I would have loved to be able to magic but I knew I would have lost my job, then I couldn't afford more HP books and the Internet to discuss the novels (or are they really true stories... could Harry just be a thinly veiled JKR... what a way to throw us off the trail by creating herself with in the image of a boy) Like I said, I spent today thinking weird thoughts... luckily nothing TOO strange happened today!!! Laura > > The second thing that I was thinking of was that it > could be possible > that Petunia and Lily are twin sisters. Their sons > are around the > same age, and I can't remember if there was anywhere > in the book that > says that one is older than the other. I thought of > this because of > in the GoF, we find out about Parvati's sister who > is in Ravenclaw. > It just kindda highlights the fact that twins ARE > different > individuals. > > Sharlene > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From deeblite at home.com Wed Oct 3 22:49:43 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:49:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's age and the timeturner In-Reply-To: <9pfg9t+4d6e@eGroups.com> References: <9pfbeo+o0gs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003184922.00ac3070@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27112 At 05:01 PM 10/3/01 +0000, you wrote: >That explains how she was having breasts as early as 14 I think... Having breasts at 14 is not at all unusual. -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From deeblite at home.com Wed Oct 3 23:10:29 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 19:10:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I hope no one objects but I would like to know if anyone... In-Reply-To: <9pfik5+4sec@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003190927.00ac8010@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27113 At 05:41 PM 10/3/01 +0000, you wrote: >Does anyone think that JKR has made any of the characters homosexual? >Obviously she won't write anything blatant or develop any same sex >relationships within the books, because of their audience. But if any >of the characters are gay, who do you think is. I somehow don't think that would even occur to her. And even if it did, i doubt she'd want to make an issue of it- i can't see how it could have relevance to the plot, and it would cause a lot more uproar over the books. -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 3 23:19:11 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:19:11 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: 10 Commandments of Posting to the List Message-ID: <3BBB9CEF.3030904@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27114 Hi everyone -- First -- just a note to say that any further comments on puberty points such as when young girls develop breasts should go to OT-Chatter!! Now also seems a nice time to let you know that we've revised our homepage to include a short, simple list of "10 Commandments" of posting. Here they are: 1. Thou shalt include a clear & specific subject line 2. Thou shalt edit any quoted text down to the minimum thou needest 3. Thou shalt read thine own message thrice before sending it 4. Thou shalt ponder how thy recipients might react to thy message 5. Thou shalt check thy spelling and thy grammar 6. Thou shalt not curse, flame, spam or use ALL CAPS 7. Thou shalt not make off-topic (OT) posts except to OT-Chatter 8. Thou shalt not post any questions to this group without first checking the VFAQ 9. Thou shalt not make multiple one-liner posts but shalt endeavor to combine shorter posts into one post 10. When in doubt, thou shalt save thine own message overnight and re-read it in the light of dawn Golden Rule of Email: That which thou findest hateful to receive, sendest thou not unto others. Please follow these rules, read the Netiquette & VFAQ files, and email your List Elf or the Moderators if you have any questions. Thanks, Penny on behalf of the Magical Moderator Team From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 23:22:37 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:22:37 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age and the timeturner In-Reply-To: <9pfbeo+o0gs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pg6jt+5vvd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27115 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > > OK, I tried to look if this has already been discussed.. > > I just wonder, if Hermione used timeturner about one year and had > like 3 lessons at the same time, and this lesson may be even double > or triple lessons, so doesn't this make Hermione very much older than > she should be? > > Let's imagine, that her days are like 6 hours longer than normal > day.. In my opinion, Hermione is actually very much older than she > should be.. > I remember working this out when I first joined the list, but for the life of me I couldn't find the post when I went digging for it. She would only be about 51.25 days older, not "much" older. This is based on her gaining 6 hours per day 5 days a week for 41 weeks. As to whether she'd be more, erm, "physically" developed being less than two months older...It's highly doubtful that anyone would really notice a difference. On the other hand, if she was born in 1980 and not 1979 (the debate rages on...) she would now be older than Harry by 1.25 days. --Barb From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 3 23:29:24 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:29:24 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Questions, Problems, Complaints ... Message-ID: <3BBB9F54.4010806@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27116 Hi -- Your Magical Moderator Team wanted to reiterate that if you ever have any questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to email us at: HPforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. We always personally answer every email sent to this address, and with 5 of us in several time zones, there's a good chance that you'll get a response in a reasonable amount of time. If we could persuade Heidi with her Blackberry to become a Moderator, we could even guarantee you a response time of 15 minutes or less (we're not sure Heidi sleeps!). Whenever there has been a troublesome message or more posted to the list in the past, we have seen some listees demanding more public reaction from the Moderators (or criticizing the onlist response from the Moderators as not taking a strong enough stance). We want to emphasize that the Moderator Team does react to *every* instance of trouble or discord or controversy. We do not, however, believe that it is always (or even typically) appropriate for our response to be public & onlist. It is most typically the case that the situation can be rectified with private off-list communication between the Moderators and the offending party. The Mods may post a general ADMIN message when something controversial has occurred, but please be aware that this is most often *not* the only action being taken. If you have complaints about actions taken or not taken by the Moderators, please drop us a line at our address as given above. We will always be happy to discuss things with you! Please keep in mind that your Moderators aren't *really* magical, and we are just muddling through as best we can most of the time. With over 2000 of you, there's a decent chance that we can't please *all* of you *all* of the time, but we are always striving to do the best job that we can. Thanks -- Penny The Magical Moderator Team From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 23:43:37 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] American Magical Government/Schools In-Reply-To: <3BBB822C.3010101@swbell.net> Message-ID: <20011003234337.81183.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27117 --- Penny & Bryce wrote: > Well, since Texas does have one of the 2 > professional US Quidditch > franchises identified by JKR in QTTA, I think it's > only fitting that > Texas (which, btw, is a huge chunk of American real > estate to just > ignore -- ) should have one of the larger > American wizarding schools. You want a major sports team *and* a major Wizarding school? Sounds greedy to me. ;) > We Texans on HP4GU-Texas figure it could be located > easily enough in the > vast unsettled lands of western Texas where the > Sweetwater All-Stars > franchise is, in the Hill Country of central Texas, > in the Valley, in > the piney woods of Eastern Texas ... lots of places. How about the Pecos mountains? I mean the original of Pecos Bill *must* have been a wizard. Maybe the Southwest does need a school....but I admit to being tempted to put in in the Four Corners area and give it Anasazi roots. > But, there simply > *must* be a Texas wizarding school. If California > gets 2 schools ... > Texas should have at least one after all. California gets two wizarding schools because of its rich multicultural history, and maybe a little because I was born and raised there ;) How about this: It occurs to me that given wizardly forms of instantaneous travel, (portkeys and the like) there is no reason by a campus should be limited to a single state. Let us therefore say that the Pecos Mountains are the site of Smoking Hills School's athletics department, (Quidditch, Quodpot and who knows what else). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 00:35:24 2001 From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 00:35:24 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Smarts In-Reply-To: <00ef01c14bca$fd1e8f80$c4c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9pgasc+51du@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27118 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: >It would be interesting to observe the Death > Eaters if they ever came to the conclusion that Voldemort was not as sharp > as he once had been, and wasn't on the ball as much any more. They strike > me as a backstabbing lot, and they might very well be pretending to follow > Voldemort until he destroys all opposition (his spellcasting's still good, > after all) at which point they intend to turn on him and destroy him and > take over the wizarding world, which he so kindly cleared of possible > opposition to their rule. I agree. I always thought it was ironic that such rabid purebloods had as their leader a half "mudblood." Of course it is because of his power and that he has (they think) the same goals as they do. They are too afraid of him to even admit it aloud, but I think secretly they feel contempt toward him because of his parantage, and I can see them turning on him. You could almost feel sorry for him, he must have such a great self hatred. He thinks killing muggles will help him. I'm not sure if he realizes it, but I think he hates the purebloods even worse than muggles or mudbloods. Maybe a psychiatrist could tell us this, but if you wish you were something, in this case pureblood, does it sound reasonable that you would hate those who are really pureblood even more than what you are already ashamed of being? Donna From john at walton.vu Thu Oct 4 00:56:16 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 01:56:16 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Request for Anti-HP Video In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20011003164828.054f0020@brain-stream.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27119 B.K. DeLong wrote: > At 08:44 PM 10/03/2001 +0000, you wrote: >> Again, I think that HP4GU ought to have *something* on the Web that >> answers these protests via educating the "bashers" on both sides of >> the equation. The Religion FAQ is a good idea, but I'd love an >> information page pertaining to this. If you're interested, please >> let me know. > > Here's more info: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_08_19_archive.html#5197006 (John picks himself up off the floor with a stitch in his side from laughing so much) Oh dear. Those poor, misguided souls. How unbelievably daft. "Witchcraft Repackaged"...LOL! And since when did "evolution" become an Element of Witchcraft? To me, this is "Harry Potter: Witchcraft Repackaged -- Making Innocent Look Evil". A few questions for those who have the books to hand (and haven't lent them to foolish flatmates who have yet to read the books) -- where in the books are there references (or what these delightful folks could construe as references) to: 1) Mother Goddess As a worshipper of the Goddess, this is patently silly. 2) evolution No comment. Just...no comment. 3) reincarnation Erm... Flamel? Except he's not dead. 4) communing with the dead and spirit world Dead, sure, spirit world...umm...do they mean the Pensieve? 5) seasonal nature celebrations Like Christmas? Or do they mean the annual snowball fight? 6) sorcery, divination, spells, curses Yeah, yeah. 7) meditation Erm... 8) Occult symbology Given that the Christian cross is itself an occult symbol (just turn it upside down, folks), that's a bit rich coming from them! 9) Black magic I think they're misconstruing "Dark Magic" here... 10) demon possession WTF? 11) "dark" aspects of Witchcraft Sure. Except that it's JKR's *fantasy* witchcraft. --John, who thinks it would make his life as a witch a whole lot easier if spells were as easy as the ones in the HP books ____________________________________________ There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them. --'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone' by JK Rowling John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From joym999 at aol.com Thu Oct 4 01:06:16 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 01:06:16 -0000 Subject: FLIRTIAC-related (KwikSpell + Mandrake Juice + Hermione the Cat) + US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <20011003184236.22330.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pgcm8+m926@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27120 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > --- Joy M wrote: > > > In fact, I maintain that New > > Hogwarts is located somewhere on the West Side > > of Manhatten, in > > midtown, not far from the Javits Center in a > > building that only looks > > like a small, dirty, abandoned two-story warehouse > > with a sign on the > > door that says CONDEMNED - KEEP OUT. > > I must say I like the description. Is it a boarding > school or a day school, (or both) and how do students > get inside without attracting attention? As John pointed out, there's good reason to think that they get there by subway. You know how sometimes the train mysteriously stops between stations for a minute? It's really stopping at the New Hogwarts station, but muggles can't see the doors opening or the students getting on and off. Oh, and NY area witches and wizards use pigeons, instead of owls, for sending messages. Clever, aren't they? --Joywitch From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Oct 4 01:19:50 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:19:50 -0400 Subject: Triwizard Tournament --- a mystery to me Message-ID: <20011003.212123.-263041.10.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27121 Rereading the two chapters "Beauxbatons and Durmstrang" and "The Goblet of Fire" today, I suddenly became very perturbed by the very idea of the Triwizard Tournament. I was filled with some troubling questions. Perhaps some of you can shed some light on these? 1) If the headmasters of the two other schools spent most of the year at Hogwarts, did someone else take their place? Can you imagine Dumbledore missing for 8 months from Hogwarts, spending it in France or Scandinavia? Or did Madame Maxime and Professor Karkaroff return to their schools between tasks? 2) What on earth did the visiting students do during those 8 months? Didn't they miss an awful lot of schoolwork? We hardly see them mentioned at all, save for the times they perform the tasks. Did they spend all their time cooped up in the carriage and ship? Why did the others, who were not chosen as champions, stay on? To support their champions? 3) Isn't it odd that so few pupils came from both schools? There were 'barely twenty additional people' at the welcoming feast. Why would so few pupils choose to enter the competition? Were the only kids who came, the ones who entered their names in the tournament? Why didn't the entire last years of both schools come, to at least show their support for their school? Or are those schools so small that they didn't have more than 12 pupils in the oldest year? The entire thing doesn't seem to make much sense to me.... ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 01:49:35 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Triwizard Tournament --- a mystery to me In-Reply-To: <20011003.212123.-263041.10.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20011004014935.32454.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27122 --- "Mindy C.L." wrote: > Rereading the two chapters "Beauxbatons and > Durmstrang" and "The Goblet > of Fire" today, I suddenly became very perturbed by > the very idea of the > Triwizard Tournament. I was filled with some > troubling questions. Perhaps > some of you can shed some light on these? > > 1) If the headmasters of the two other schools spent > most of the year at > Hogwarts, did someone else take their place? Can you > imagine Dumbledore > missing for 8 months from Hogwarts, spending it in > France or Scandinavia? > Or did Madame Maxime and Professor Karkaroff return > to their schools > between tasks? Providing there were no disasters, (as there always seem to be at Hogwarts) I imagine Durmstrang and Beauxbatons equivalents of Minerva MacGonagall managed perfectly well - and after all the Headmaster/mistress could apparate home in an instant if needed. > 2) What on earth did the visiting students do during > those 8 months? > Didn't they miss an awful lot of schoolwork? We > hardly see them mentioned > at all, save for the times they perform the tasks. > Did they spend all > their time cooped up in the carriage and ship? Why > did the others, who > were not chosen as champions, stay on? To support > their champions? I would guess they took classes along with their Hogwarts guest Houses, (Ravenclaw and Slytherin) we never see them in class because they are of course sixth and seventh year students. > 3) Isn't it odd that so few pupils came from both > schools? There were > 'barely twenty additional people' at the welcoming > feast. Why would so > few pupils choose to enter the competition? Were the > only kids who came, > the ones who entered their names in the tournament? > Why didn't the entire > last years of both schools come, to at least show > their support for their > school? Or are those schools so small that they > didn't have more than 12 > pupils in the oldest year? If I recall correctly Dumbledore said the Durmstrang and Beauxbatons contigents would consist of the Headmaster/mistress and their 'short list' of prospective champions, obviously some sort of winnowing process has taken place back at the respective schools. Also I would guess students from the two schools came to witness the tests then went back home during the months in between, it was only the 'short list' who stayed the whole eight months continuously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From frances at forever.u-net.com Thu Oct 4 02:19:23 2001 From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 02:19:23 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age and the timeturner In-Reply-To: <9pg6jt+5vvd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pggvb+m8ov@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27123 > I remember working this out when I first joined the list, but for the > life of me I couldn't find the post when I went digging for it. She > would only be about 51.25 days older, not "much" older. This is > based on her gaining 6 hours per day 5 days a week for 41 weeks. As > to whether she'd be more, erm, "physically" developed being less than > two months older...It's highly doubtful that anyone would really > notice a difference. > > On the other hand, if she was born in 1980 and not 1979 (the debate > rages on...) she would now be older than Harry by 1.25 days. > > --Barb Of course it could be that because the timeturner is a magical device any time 'used' through it is sort of 'out of time' and doesn't actually add to a person's age. Frances (check out 'Coming of Age' by Frances Potter at schnoogle.com!) From conshydot at email.com Thu Oct 4 02:30:48 2001 From: conshydot at email.com (conshydot at email.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 02:30:48 -0000 Subject: American Magical Government/Schools In-Reply-To: <9pds9b+rr3j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pghko+vdb6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27124 All of those places would be a great place for the US magic Academy, but consider this: Elfreth's Alley in Philadelphia is the oldest continously inhabited street in the US. Elfreth's Alley could be the "front" for the academy or it could be the Leaky Cauldron which is the entrance for US Diagon Alley. Then Is the LOST colony really lost? or is it hidden by strong magical charms? Strong Magical charms to HIDE the The Magical Academy for Most of America (MAMA). From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 03:01:58 2001 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (Littlered32773 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 03:01:58 -0000 Subject: US Magic School Locale In-Reply-To: <9pgcm8+m926@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pgjf6+blv7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27125 I'm new here, but I must say, I love the thread about the US school location! > As John pointed out, there's good reason to think that they get there > by subway. You know how sometimes the train mysteriously stops > between stations for a minute? It's really stopping at the New > Hogwarts station, but muggles can't see the doors opening or the > students getting on and off. Oh, and NY area witches and wizards use > pigeons, instead of owls, for sending messages. Clever, aren't they? Now I understand why the subways stop! Brilliant. Ever notice that the lights flicker off when they stop? Maybe that's the cover for students getting on and off-no one can see them because it's dark! Pigeons! It's so obvious! Why hasn't this been noticed before? I do think you are off on where the school would be located though. I think the most obvious choice would be Greenwich Village (I think I spelled that wrong). Yes, I know it's pronounced "grenitch" but doesn't that just make sense? From joym999 at aol.com Thu Oct 4 03:40:36 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 03:40:36 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <9pb7if+5g8q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pglnk+4cuk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27126 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > Reviewing Possible Instances of "Deus Ex Machina": The Luke Verdict > > with your host, Professor . . . Luke > > ***** Great lecture, Professor Luke. You're MUCH more interesting than Professor Binns! I would like to show my appreciation of your considerable talents by picking a few nits, if you don't mind (and, in fact, even if you do.) > 1) The hero must be in a situation of Immediate, Impending Doom (tm). > Not just danger, and not just in the relatively near future, but a > situation in which, if even a couple more seconds were allowed to > elapse without intervention, our hero would perish. > > 2) The hero must not be able to save himself from the aforementioned > Immediate, Impending Doom (tm), because the situation he has found > himself in is so dire, that it would be beyond his maximum capacity to > do so. > > 3) The salvation must ultimately come by an external force or third > party that, up until the moment of intervention, was in no way > involved in the immediate conflict. > > Case 1--The centaur's rescue of Harry from the Forbidden Forest. > > Criterion 1: Not fulfilled. Harry, though undoubtedly in danger from > Quirrel/Voldemort on a slightly elongated timespan, was not at that > precise moment in danger of death at the hands of Voldemort. He was > saved long before Voldemort had even begun to turn on him. > Hmmm...You say Harry wasn't in a situation of Immediate, Impending Doom (tm)? I'd say it was a matter of interpretation. Allow me to quote, Chapter 15 of SS: "The hooded figure raised its head and looked right at Harry -- unicorn blood was dribbling down its front. It got to its feet and came swiftly toward Harry -- he couldn't move for fear." "Then a pain like he'd never felt before pierced his head; it was as though his scar were on fire. Half blinded, he staggered back ward. he heard hooves behind him, galloping..." (and is rescued) That's not Immediate, Impending Doom (tm)??? Are you sure? > Case 3--The Flying Ford Anglia's rescue of Harry, Ron and Fang from > the acromantulae > The Luke Verdict: A very good case of "deus ex machina" to my mind, in > its clear devotion to fulfilling criterion 3 to such a stunning degree > that it strikes the reader as particularly contrived, solely to save > the hero from an unwinnable situation by use of an otherwise rather > irrelevant "character". It's a little rude to call one of our esteemed moderators an "otherwise rather irrelevant 'character'." > Case 6--Professor Lupin rescuing Harry from the dementor on the train > Criterion 3: Not fulfilled. Since there was no existing conflict > between Harry and the dementor (conflict requires effort on both sides > and Harry has done nothing to fight the dementor) means that Lupin was > starting his own conflict with the dementor not intervening into > Harry's. And Lupin was already present anyway, so he was only acting > out of his maximum capacity and assisting as one would expect. > And, in fact, it has been argued here a number of times that Lupin was probably on the train for the express purpose of guarding Harry, so it's hardly a case of deus ex machina when he does so. > > (obnoxious electronic bell clangs loudly) > > Alright, class, that's sufficient for today (and the rest of your > lives, no doubt). Be sure to have your essays on "your least favorite > way that Luke's posts are excessively verbose and exceedingly > pointless" on my desk at 10 A.M. tomorrow! Hey, "exceedingly pointless" is the name of the game around here. Seriously though, Luke, that was the best class I've been in since the time I took macroeconomics and one of the students fell asleep during class and fell off his chair onto the floor with a loud thud. --Joywitch, the eternal student From mindyatime at juno.com Thu Oct 4 06:09:24 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 02:09:24 -0400 Subject: another triwizard tournament question Message-ID: <20011004.020943.-367011.5.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27127 I am also wondering why it didn't occur to all those who wanted to enter but couldn't, like the Weasley twins, to use the Confundus Charm to fool the goblet into thinking they were older? Surely if Barty Jr. could've thought of such an idea, there'd be a student in the school who'd have the same idea, espeically if they read through enough books. (Unless they were afraid of being caught.) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From lake4fam at earthlink.net Thu Oct 4 08:11:01 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:11:01 -0000 Subject: Apology Message-ID: <9ph5il+ku6c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27128 I really meant to put something in the subject line when I posted "All over the Map" in the wee smalls Wednesday. I realised that I didn't know what the subject was, and figured that I'd come up with something after I was done, but then it was so late that I just hit send and.....blank subject line. I apologise to all and sundry, especially ADMIN. dittany/custodienne From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Oct 4 08:49:02 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:49:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Smarts In-Reply-To: <9pgasc+51du@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011004084902.36265.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27129 --- bookraptor11 at yahoo.com ha scritto:
"I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
"Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

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--------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it suYahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Thu Oct 4 10:01:35 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:01:35 -0000 Subject: interfacing with Muggleverse. In-Reply-To: <20011003184710.23328.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9phc1v+j4tj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27130 Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: (in thread American Magical Government/Schools ) > Since the 'Department of Magic' like the MoM > doubtless liases with the Muggle government it > probably is headquartered in Washington DC. However > since we are a federal republic it seems highly likely > that there would be State Departments of Magic which > would be located places like Salem, New Orleans, New > York, etc. Surely Baton Rouge, Albany,... Salem would be Salem, Oregon presumably? If wizard structures mimic Muggle ones for reasons of self-protection and camoflage maybe other Muggle influences prevail. So would Australian Wizards be less class-ridden than British ones? New Zealanders touchy about being mistaken for Australians? Does the Canadian wizarding paper carry articles on 'Registration of Animagi - a Federal or Provincial responsibility?'. Sidebar on real politics. In 1976 James Callaghan became Prime Minister of Britain in between elections, having been Chancellor of the Exchequer and Foreign Secretary and a lot of other big offices over the previous 15 years. He said later in his memoires that the first thing that happened to him as Prime Mister was thet he got a detailed briefing on state secrets he never knew about before, in spite of being one step away for the Prime Ministership for years. He was he said stunned - but he never let on what they were. I have a nice little fanasy fitting this into the Potterverse Departmental Secretary Fudge: " Prime Minister Congratulations on your appointment. I think you should sit down. There are one or two things you need to know about how the world actually is....Oh by the way cakes and coffee? (waves a rather long pencil)." Wonder how Dubya coped? Edis From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Oct 4 12:45:11 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:45:11 -0400 Subject: The British Way (was Contest #15) Message-ID: <0BEC66B3.3C2E6958.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27131 Joy M wrote: >Way back when, pigwidgeon37 said: >".. it is never made clear who nominates or elects the Minister of Magic." >and Lyda Clunas speculated that >"I'd imagine that there's some sort of board of Ministry officials or such, but who knows, perhaps it's a popular election. That would be interesting..." >Interesting, indeed. Let's suppose there is an election: This makes for a good contest - get your entries in while you can! - but I doubt if they have elections as normally understood. Despite all the blether about Mother of Parliaments and being a beacon of democracy (we do hypocrisy as competently as any soi-disant leaders of the Free World), it is not really the Great British Way. In normal circumstances, Fudge would let it be known among his close associates that he, while not exactly committing to anything, is starting to look forward to the idea of putting his feet up by the fireside. His associates would then start looking for a Good Egg who might well be the right choice at the present time (if they want to get rid of him later it's important to signal that other choices might be right at another time). To help with this they would consult a rather diffuse band known as The Great And The Good. Malfoy would count in the first category, Dumbledore in the second as well as possibly the first. The G&G would be consulted individually rather than collectively, and kept generally in the dark about who else was being consulted, though they could have a jolly good guess. Eventually a Name would emerge and go the rounds. If not too many objections were raised, that name would go forward to a formal process which would be a foregone conclusion. If there were objections, a new Name would come out in due course. Somewhere in the middle of it all, Fudge would announce his retirement from office and step aside for the Name. He might, if he wanted, go on 'to become more powerful than you could possibly imagine', to quote Obi-Won Kenobi, by going on to sit on various obscure committees. In abnormal circumstances, say a crisis or clear signs of Leader Losing Grip, the associates would consult the G&G anyway, and then approach Fudge with some sort of polite, veiled ultimatum. If he didn't go quietly, the formal process would be gone through for real (it is this that is the thin end of the wedge by which alien notions of democracy have gradually foisted themselves on the country). The fact that the MfM is called Fudge suggests to me that JKR is well aware of the above type of process. I can tell some of you think I am joking. It wasn't until the sixties that the Conservatives introduced the idea of elections for party leadership - and when they did it gave them Ted Heath, hardly a point in favour of democracy for your True Blue. Since then I can think of at least three instances in more than one party with elements of the above stitch-up in national politics. David, (facetious remark about one of our political parties deleted out of respect for HPfGU rules) __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 4 12:56:48 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:56:48 -0400 Subject: POV-Bit players-Boggarts-Deus etc.-Krum & H/H-Schools-US D.O.M. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27132 Cindy wrote re: POV: >I wonder how JKR will handle this in OoP now that we have two >separate "camps" (Voldemort's and Dumbledore's), but Harry only has >access to Dumbledor's camp. At this point in the series, could JKR >get away with switching to an objective omnicient POV? Would the >books be as good if written in that fashion? Very interesting question. Perhaps she *is* going to write large chunks of the next book from a different POV, and chapter 1 of GoF was intended to acclimate us. (Harry knows a bit about that scene from a dream, but it is not told from his POV; it's from Frank Bryce's.) Cindy asked: >Who is your favorite bit player (and why)? Lee Jordan, for the Quidditch commentary already much-praised by others. As long as we're talking about authorly devices, this is also a terrific one. No matter how much you like sports, the description of a match can be dull reading; JKR makes it work largely through Lee-related humor. What will happen after next year, when he's graduated (assuming he's the same age as F & G)? Among really itty-bit players, my favorites are Ern ("Ar.") and the boa constrictor. David wrote: >On the question of what Lupin means by fearing only fear itself, I think >possibly we are reading too much into it. The point is that most people's >Boggart, as somebody has mentioned, is a concrete external thing. In >Harry's >case, it's another being which acts directly on the mind (or soul?). So >Lupin >is indicating, in a loose sort of way, that Harry has got beyond being >frightened of this or that thing, and is afraid only of the darkness within >himself which the Dementor can call forth. I like this. > David, disappointed that Amy Zabini has not revealed the gender of the >wizard in >her family. Sorry, I promised Cousin Blaise I wouldn't tell. AG tantalized: >Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who, btw, thinks "Sex ex machina" was >Thurber at his best.) That's a piece of Thurber wit I don't know. Will you post the explanation to OT? Luke wrote re: the FFA incident (tremendous post on d.e.m., BTW, Luke): >Criterion 3: Fulfilled with honors! The Flying Ford Anglia was not only >previously a non-factor in the conflict, but in fact has no credible >explanation for popping up out of nowhere. Hence this case gets extra >credit for appealing to criterion 3 above and beyond the call of duty. The car wasn't a party to the conflict, but it did show up even before the crisis. We knew it had a mind of its own (=the power to rescue them) and had come when they were afraid of the forest (=the will to rescue them). I realize I am somewhat rewriting Criterion 3, or perhaps even proposing a Criterion 4 along the lines of Haggridd's comment about foreshadowing/a credible foundation. IMHO, the salvific figure in question does not have to have been a party to the conflict, as long as its presence and power have been established in some plausible way. This counts as foreshadowing and rescues JKR from the crime of d.e.m. as surely as the FFA saved Harry, Ron, and Fang's bacon. Ironically, the fact that the car has improbably appeared just a short while before the Acromantulae kidnap H, R, and F makes it *less* of a d.e.m. when it then comes to the rescue. Dumbledore, because he's *always* in the background at Hogwarts, has no business suddenly showing up to save the day. We require specific foreshadowing. The same sort of thing helps out in the case of Fawkes in CoS. Fawkes has been introduced in just that book, and the relevant powers explained; the hat has been prominent. These are cues to the reader that these elements might prove important. Only the sword comes out of nowhere. It doesn't bother me, but if anyone wants to make a case for its being d.e.m. I'd read it with an open mind. Penny wrote: >Or, maybe he pesters her at the Library & she was trying to get rid of him >by talking Harry up. Gasp! Is that *Penny* writing? Did she just offer R/Hers an elegant response to the "why does Hermione talk to Viktor about Harry" evidence, that pillar of H/H reasoning? There you go. She talks about him because she is trying to send the signal that she is not serious about him (Viktor). Harry makes a better subject for going on and on about than Ron because Harry is Famous Harry Potter and is ahead of VK in the tournament and is therefore likely to irk Viktor more. Joywitch wrote: >There was quite a bit of speculation on this topic early last year, sometime before GoF came out IIRC. We postulated several American schools, including "New Hogwarts" and "Nouveaubatons," schools on the west coast, Texas, etc. Someone came up with "Nouveauxbatons" before the existence of Beauxbatons was known? Craig wrote: >The existence of the Department in the greater D.C. area is hinted >at by the local NBA local teams (Wizards, Mystics), One field office is located in Orlando, under the Magic's arena. Barb wrote: >I lean a little more toward New Orleans since it has a lot of magical >activity already and a chaotic Muggle government that would be less >likely to meddle in magical affairs even if anyone in the Muggle >government inadvertantly saw some magic When I think of Lousiana politics, I think of dead people being on the voter rolls. Sounds like a magical government to me (since Binns still teaches, he probably still votes too). Amy Z -------------------------------------------------- The snake jerked its head toward Uncle Vernon and Dudley, then raised its eyes to the ceiling. It gave Harry a look that said quite plainly: "=I get that all the time.=" -HP and the Philosopher's Stone -------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Oct 4 13:27:57 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 13:27:57 -0000 Subject: Request for Anti-HP Video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pho4t+9jev@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27133 John Walton wrote: (and I'm responding against my better judgement) > 3) reincarnation > Erm... Flamel? Except he's not dead. and Riddle is an ancestor of Slytherin? ;-) > 4) communing with the dead and spirit world > Dead, sure, spirit world...umm...do they mean the Pensieve? Dead: Priori incantatem - Cedric, Frank, Bertha, James, Lily Spirit World: Trelawney's 2nd prediction might be understood this way. > > 5) seasonal nature celebrations > Like Christmas? Or do they mean the annual snowball fight? I guess they mean Hallowe'en - but don't want to say right out until you are watching the video. Opposition to Hallowe'en as 'the devil's festival' is widespread. > > 6) sorcery, divination, spells, curses > Yeah, yeah. > > 7) meditation > Erm... Trelawney implies she does this, IIRC > > 8) Occult symbology > Given that the Christian cross is itself an occult symbol (just turn it > upside down, folks), that's a bit rich coming from them! The Dark Mark - to be fair, the cross isn't meant to be secret (occult), whereas the DM sort of is (OK not over your house, but on their arms). > > 9) Black magic > I think they're misconstruing "Dark Magic" here... or all magic is black to them. > 10) demon possession Trelawney again > > 11) "dark" aspects of Witchcraft > Sure. Except that it's JKR's *fantasy* witchcraft. > and of course it's supposed to be a bad thing you wouldn't want to copy. And it's interesting that Trelawney is not exactly given a ringing endorsement for the reader. David, not wanting to lose Ebony's original idea From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 13:53:42 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 13:53:42 -0000 Subject: Fawkes/Apparating in Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9peb04+qrna@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9phpl6+atg8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27134 I have a feeling that there are creature that can move from one place to another without the "proper" apparating spell. Since the Phoenix is a magical creature, it has powers/abilities that wizards must devise a spell to duplicate. House-elves also have some kind of apparation ability. In CoS, Dobby disappears from Harry's sick bed with "...a loud crack, and Harry's fist was suddenly clenched on thin air." So perhaps wizards can't apparate in or into Hogwarts but magical creatures like phoenixes and house-elves can? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mary Ann Ortiz" wrote: > > I just whipped out my copy of Fantastic Beasts, and it doesn't say > that phoenixes can "apparate". But I do wonder how Fawkes ever got > in the Chamber.... Hmmmm.... From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 4 14:01:07 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:01:07 -0000 Subject: another triwizard tournament question In-Reply-To: <20011004.020943.-367011.5.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9phq33+objb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27135 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." wrote: > I am also wondering why it didn't occur to all those who wanted to enter > but couldn't, like the Weasley twins, to use the Confundus Charm to fool > the goblet into thinking they were older? Surely if Barty Jr. could've > thought of such an idea, there'd be a student in the school who'd have > the same idea, espeically if they read through enough books. (Unless they > were afraid of being caught.) I think there are two explanations. First, F and G wouldn't want to just enter. They want to be *Hogwarts* champion. So they would never enter under the name of a fake school, although they might simply be able to make the Goblet think they are older. The reason they probably do not try this is that the Confundus Charm is probably not easy. It requires the ability to overcome the will of another person or object, like the Imperio Curse. It probably requires a powerful bit of magic to work, and there is no evidence that F and G could handle it. The only wizards I recall who have either used the charm or been accused of using it are Crouch/Moody and Sirius (in PoA when Fudge and Snape theorize that Sirius put Harry and Hermione under the Confundus charm), both of whom are powerful and clever wizards. Cindy From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 14:12:20 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:12:20 -0000 Subject: FLASH: Wizarding School found in Philly's woods (was: US Magical Gov't/Schools) In-Reply-To: <9pghko+vdb6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9phqo4+sqp6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27136 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., conshydot at e... wrote: > All of those places would be a great place for the US magic > Academy, but consider this: Elfreth's Alley in Philadelphia is the > oldest continously inhabited street in the US. Elfreth's Alley > could be the "front" for the academy or it could be the Leaky > Cauldron which is the entrance for US Diagon Alley. I agree that Elfreth's Alley would make an excellent portal for the Philadelphia wizarding "shopping district," but there is probably an equivalent of Diagon Alley in most cities in the US. This would hardly be the "US Diagon Alley." At any rate, if there is a wizarding school in Philadelphia, I think I have inadvertantly seen it. We have here the largest municipal park around, Fairmount Park, which covers large parts of the city. It includes Valley Green, along the banks of the Wissahickon Creek. When I was in junior high school, we were on a class trip to Valley Green (a short walk from our school) and I became lost in the woods with three friends of mine. At one point, we emerged from the trees into a very large field; about 200 yards away was an enormous stone house. We had no idea where we were. No streets were visible. Then a pack of very angry dogs came around the corner of the house, heading right for us. We hightailed it back into the woods, and thankfully the dogs did not follow us (I believe their job was only to keep us off their property). Clearly, the dogs served as the anti-Muggle protection for the wizarding school in the large stone house that could only be reached (by Muggles) through a very circuitous route through the woods...It would be very easy to play Quidditch or Quodpot in such a secluded place without Muggles noticing... --Barb Got art? http://philart.net From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 14:15:10 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:15:10 -0000 Subject: What would it take to really surprise you? In-Reply-To: <9pfj9j+tlcb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9phqte+qffm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27137 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > The only sure thing about OoP is that there will be surprises, and > I'll bet this group has figured out a few of them. But what would it really take to really blindside a L.O.O.N.? > > There are two plot developments that JKR could use that would really throw me for a loop. The first involves Snape. We've all speculated about whether he is a vampire, and most people do not think so, even though JKR has left clues to push us in that direction. > > But what if Snape if part dementor? He likes dark places, > he "glides" (like dementors do), he's not very nice. Now, I'll admit that I can't wrap my mind around one of Snape's wizard ancestors having relations with a Dementor, but then again, Fleur is part Veela and Hagrid is part giant. The idea is definitely wild. > > The other wild plot twist involves Karkarov. We have been led to > believe that he fled and that Voldemort will look for him and kill > him in short order. But what if Dumbledore decides to give Karkarov a second chance (and forgives that unfortunate spitting incident) and hires him as the next DADA teacher? The students certainly need someone well versed in the dark arts to train them up for the coming battle, and Karkarov has seen Voldemort's camp from the inside, whereas Moody has never been on the inside. > > Anyone else have a wild and highly improbable theory they'd like to > share? > > Cindy While I'd never presume to L.O.O.N. status, I'd like to throw out some improbable theories: - That a DADA (or other new/undiscovered teacher) is able to "cure" Neville's parents. Or cure Lupin? - That James and Lily didn't really die. *Highly* improbable, based on Priori Incantatem and Harry's patronus(but we're going for the blindside, aren't we?) - That Dumbledore will hire a creature to teach DADA - perhaps a mixed creature born prior to the 1965 Ban on Experimental Breeding? (co-opting your former-evil-as-new-DADA-teacher idea a bit) - That a Weasley will go over to Voldemort. I don't think I could wrap my mind around that one. Not even Percy. - That Voldemort is somehow related to Dumbledore. That's about as far-fetched as I can go this early in the morning. - Denise From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Oct 4 14:28:02 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:28:02 -0000 Subject: triwizard & Voldemort's smarts In-Reply-To: <20011004.020943.-367011.5.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9phrli+oh5n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27138 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." wrote: > I am also wondering why it didn't occur to all those who wanted to enter > but couldn't, like the Weasley twins, to use the Confundus Charm to fool > the goblet into thinking they were older? Surely if Barty Jr. could've > thought of such an idea, there'd be a student in the school who'd have > the same idea, espeically if they read through enough books. (Unless they > were afraid of being caught.) It is only fair to remember that there are greater and lesser wizards, just as in the muggle world there are greater and lesser athletes, lawyers, doctors and plumbers. Two people from the same profession will invariably have different aptitudes (skills, talents, abilities) for any given task or function within the profession. It is unlikely that Gred and Forge, or any of the other students were of sufficient talent or expertise to pull off the Confundus. Thus the oft repeated canonical phrase "it would take a powerful Dark Wizard to...". Barty Crouch Jr was a powerful Dark Wizard, from a line of powerful wizards. Evidently, magical ability is part hereditary (the list archive is full of that discussion, I won't attempt it here), and part study. The examples are Tom Riddle's years out of sight, studying the Dark Arts, or Nicholas Flamel's continuing work on alchemy, or Dumbledore's discovery of the twelve uses of Dragon's blood. This suggests that just like in our world, latent ability is of little import in the absence of hard work, determination, perserverance, and will. Which brings us to Voldemort's smarts. We ought to give this guy a break, at least when it comes to expecting him to be sane, rational or clear-eyed in the emotional sense. He is a nut! A very bright kid with deep emotional scars, an abiding sense of betrayal and abandonment, no reported source of love, etc., etc. He grows up hating his father, transfers that hate to all non-magic people, and determines to have revenge on the muggle and magic worlds alike for failing to save his mother, punish his father or provide suitable substitutes for him. He seeks out power in its most immediate form, using his natural gifts of charm, good looks and duplicity to win Head Boy, even as he plots his father's murder. He seeks out and discovers the Chamber of Secrets, and enjoys the power of fear he holds over the entire school, even causes the death of a fellow student (Moaning Myrtle). He only stops becuase he doesn't want to get caught, but he does put it all in a diary so that it can be continued years later. He disappears from magic society, pursuing every dark art, evil potion, deadly curse he can find, making hmself impervious to the weapons and will of "proper magic society", before whom he had had to bow as a poor orphan. He undergoes "so many transformations..." "there may not be enough human left in him to die". Then he comes back and starts seducing the ambitious among the pureblood snobs, who themselves desire power. His old chums from Slytherin provide a fertile field. He knows them, can play on their ambtions, and use their slick sly cunning natures to build his network of terror. Then he starts the torture, the killing, using the Unforgivable Curses without regard for wizarding law. The more he succeeds, the more bold his followers, and the more of his followers there are. It's going great, until... (just guessing here) Professor Treelawney predicts that the House of Potter will destroy the last Heir of Slytherin. Voldemort goes to eliminate James Potter, and his infant child. He gets a surprise for which no one could have prepared him. Lily, either consciously or unconsciously, works a charm that protects Harry, and inadvertently obliterates Voldemort physically, but not spiritually. He hides in ghost-like form, knawing on rodents and vermin, waiting for his "pureblood" followers to come and help him. No one comes for ten years. You know the story from there. So wouldn't you hate the purebloods as well as the muggles. And would'nt the purebloods doubt Voldemort, showing up only out of fear at first? And finally, doesn't it make sense that through all this, the monster who was the boy Tom Riddle has come a bit unglued, lost his moorings, got a few screws loose? I say Voldemort is crazy, in the clinical sense, and though I am not a mental health professional, I am pretty sure I know crazy when I see it. 4FR From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 14:31:09 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:31:09 -0000 Subject: Request for Anti-HP Video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9phrrd+v6v1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27139 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > A few questions for those who have the books to hand (and haven't > lent them to foolish flatmates who have yet to read the books) -- > where in the books are there references (or what these delightful > folks could construe as references) to: > > 1) Mother Goddess > As a worshipper of the Goddess, this is patently silly. > > 2) evolution > No comment. Just...no comment. > > 3) reincarnation > Erm... Flamel? Except he's not dead. Oh come now John, there sure is - Fawkes? ;) - Denise (who is sick and tired of a small group of fundamentalists using "their" God to justify hatred and prejudice) From frantyck at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 14:38:28 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:38:28 -0000 Subject: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <9pb7if+5g8q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9phs94+8uuq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27140 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > Reviewing Possible Instances of "Deus Ex Machina": The Luke Verdict > > with your host, Professor . . . Luke > > ***** > 1) The hero must be in a situation of Immediate, Impending Doom (tm). > 2) The hero must not be able to save himself from the aforementioned > Immediate, Impending Doom (tm), because the situation he has found > himself in is so dire, that it would be beyond his maximum capacity to > do so. > > 3) The salvation must ultimately come by an external force or third > party that, up until the moment of intervention, was in no way > involved in the immediate conflict. Pee Aitch Dee Luke, that was a memorable post. Spluttered into my tea. Spotty keyboard. Still, I have to take issue, mildly, with the rigidity of your definition. Even though the Encyclopaedia Britannica basically agrees with you ("a person or thing that appears or is introduced into a situation suddenly and unexpectedly and provides an artificial or contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty."), it does not stress Immediate, Impending Doom (tm). I can't claim that the Britannica is the ultimate arbiter and The Last Word (tm), but what's noteworthy is the *balance* of its definition. What's most important in a case of "deus ex machina," it seems to me, is the artificiality of the solution, not the immediacy of (whatever) doom. After all, the term itself refers to the intervention rather than to the preceding circumstances. Looking at it this way does not change the Luke Verdicts on each case, but it does affect the reasons for arriving at them. For instance, you said: > Case 1--The centaur's rescue of Harry from the Forbidden Forest. > > Criterion 1: Not fulfilled. > > Criterion 2: Neither fulfilled nor cleanly debunked. > Summation of Criteria 1 and 2: There was, as yet, no direct conflict > in existence between Harry and Quirrel/Voldemort, though one would > soon have resulted. > > Criterion 3: Fulfilled, but immaterial as criteria 1 and 2 are not > met. > > The Luke Verdict: Not a "deus ex machina" case. I'd say this was not a case of deus ex machina because the centaur's intervention was not an awkward, artificial insert in the storyline. The centaurs were nearby, they were aware, even if they normally choose to leave humans to their own devices. They know of Harry's particular importance (as we do not, not yet) in a struggle that really is a shared struggle. Firenze's save isn't an end to the episode either, because he is scolded for carrying a human, and we can see the indecision, the collision of tradition, conscience and fear among the centaurs. It lacks a clear sense of closure and it points to something in the future. The point I'm making shows up clearest in the two most significant examples of deus ex machina, the ones you tackle next. > Case 2--Dumbledore's rescue of Harry from Quirrel/Voldemort at the end > of PS/SS > > Criterion 1: Fulfilled. > > Criterion 2: Fulfilled. > Criterion 3: Fulfilled. Though Dumbledore is of course engaged in > conflict with Voldemort in a grander scale throughout the series, he > was not part of that particular instance of conflict between Harry and > Quirrel/Voldemort up until the time of his intervention. > > The Luke Verdict: A reasonable case of "deus ex machina", at least in > the more modern sense of the term. True, and what makes it worse is that there is no explanation of how Dumbledore dealt with Voldemort (and forget the old question about how he zoomed straight past all the puzzle-obstacles that had hindered HRH). Dumbledore is very much like the god who appears to fix things in the original Greek plays, and indeed is more inscrutable than a Greek god. > Case 3--The Flying Ford Anglia's rescue of Harry, Ron and Fang from > the acromantulae > > Criterion 1: Fulfilled. > > Criterion 2: Fulfilled. > > Criterion 3: Fulfilled with honors! The Flying Ford Anglia was not > only previously a non-factor in the conflict, but in fact has no > credible explanation for popping up out of nowhere. Hence this case > gets extra credit for appealing to criterion 3 above and beyond the > call of duty. > > The Luke Verdict: A very good case of "deus ex machina" to my mind, in > its clear devotion to fulfilling criterion 3 to such a stunning degree > that it strikes the reader as particularly contrived, solely to save > the hero from an unwinnable situation by use of an otherwise rather > irrelevant "character". There you go! I totally agree, but there *is* one faintly "credible explanation" for the FF Anglia's appearance. When Harry, Ron and Fang are seized by the acromantulae, they are in the very glare of the Anglia's headlights, and the car "sees," or is present at, their capture. I would guess that it trundled after them and stepped in at the last moment. Like a dog, a comparison which Rowling does draw. > Case 4--Fawkes to the rescue of Harry at the end of COS > > > The Grander Scheme (What You've All Been Waiting For)--The cumulative > efforts of Fawkes at the end of COS > > The Luke Verdict: The fact that the two main conflicts here (Harry vs. > Riddle and Harry vs. the basilisk) were ultimately solved by Harry > himself means that, regardless of whatever Fawkes may have done to > help, the entire scenario on the whole cannot be viewed as a case of > "deus ex machina", regardless of how you view each particular > sub-case. This entire episode hinges on one quality of phoenixes (phoenices??) that Rowling is careful to stress: that they are highly faithful pets. Thus, when Harry shows "exceptional loyalty" to Dumbledore in the Chamber, the stage is set for Fawkes to turn up and help. This, in my opinion, saves this episode from being a case of deus ex machina, but barely. Just barely. Rowling has tried this before, setting up a tenuous connection with the story in PS/SS to make the ending less implausible. When Dumbledore is tricked out of Hogwarts, only to realise that he's not where he ought to be. Owls crossed in mid-air or some such thing. That doesn't seem to work, really. And the tenuous connection that allows the FF Anglia to save the day is also ho-hum, not good enough. > (obnoxious electronic bell clangs loudly) > > Alright, class, that's sufficient for today (and the rest of your > lives, no doubt). Be sure to have your essays on "your least favorite > way that Luke's posts are excessively verbose and exceedingly > pointless" on my desk at 10 A.M. tomorrow! > > -Luke Here's my essay, Professor, sorry it's late. Do I get bumped down a letter grade? From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 4 14:49:59 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:49:59 -0000 Subject: triwizard & Voldemort's smarts In-Reply-To: <9phrli+oh5n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9phsun+5342@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27141 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: Then he starts the torture, the killing, using > the Unforgivable Curses without regard for wizarding law. The more > he succeeds, the more bold his followers, and the more of his > followers there are. It's going great, until... > > (just guessing here) Professor Treelawney predicts that the House of > Potter will destroy the last Heir of Slytherin. Voldemort goes to > eliminate James Potter, and his infant child. Although it is tantalizing to imagine that Professor Trelawney's first true prediction is that Harry will destroy the Heir of Slytherin, there is one wrinkle. Dumbledore indicates that Professor Trelawney's prediction about Wormtail is her second correct prediction. We don't yet know if Harry will destroy the Heir of Slytherin, so that can't be her first real prediction. Now, perhaps Voldemort simply heard that Trelawney made such a prediction and decides to kill Harry to cover his bases. Interesting, but Trelawney is wrong so often that it is hard to imagine Voldemort taking one of her predictions so seriously. Cindy (wondering if Trelawney might decide to convert to the Dark Side if her Inner Eye tells her that Voldemort will prevail over Dumbledore) From coredump at coredump.com.br Thu Oct 4 15:07:20 2001 From: coredump at coredump.com.br (Jos? de Paula Eufr?sio J?nior) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:07:20 -0300 Subject: The JKR HP Universe Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27142 Hello! :) I'm a brazilian, 22 yr old, reader of HP Books. I finished reading GoF 2 days ago and joined this list (i like the name :P). I was reading the FAQ's and messages in the last days and have some questions, if they're already answered, sorry and please kill me :) 1-) The HP Universe grown a lot in the GoF. They talk a lot about other Schools of Magic outside Hogwarts. (They even talked about Brazil! :)). This universe deserves to be more exploited and described. I think that willl occur like the Star Wars "Expanded Universe", with other people writing about. (Wiriting books, not fanfics, I have a big trouble with fanfic) 2-) About the "Voldermort Smarts", I really think that Voldermort's mind is really strong... and he was already crazy when he lose to HPbaby. I don't think in him like a senile old crazy wizard, but a dangerous old crazy wizard with a willpower that makes him resist death itself 3-) I'm a "shipper" :P and really thinks that Mione and Rony will end together, but I don't see anybody for Harry :( Cho? Parvati? 4-) WHY Fudge simply don't BELIEVE in Dumbledore? That almost get me crazy in the end of GoF!! Whata &@&%()%#*( MoM... :\ Well... I think that's the comments for now... Sorry by the bad english :) and ignore the 4 question, I just HAVE to comment the dumbness of Fudge. []s Pax Profundis Junior From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Oct 4 15:37:32 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 15:37:32 -0000 Subject: triwizard & Voldemort's smarts In-Reply-To: <9phsun+5342@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9phvns+dtq1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27143 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Although it is tantalizing to imagine that Professor Trelawney's > first true prediction is that Harry will destroy the Heir of > Slytherin, there is one wrinkle. Dumbledore indicates that Professor > Trelawney's prediction about Wormtail is her second correct > prediction. We don't yet know if Harry will destroy the Heir of > Slytherin, so that can't be her first real prediction. Well...some people would say that getting ripped from your body and left powerless and incorporeal for 10 or 12 years is pretty darn close to getting destroyed, but we won't quibble. Besides, you are right that the clearer prediction probably would have been that the House of Potter and the House of the Last Heir would tangle, and the end of one or the other would be the result. I am thinking of the Centaur Firenze, who said regarding the continuing conflict between Harry and Voldemort, "the stars have been read wrong before, even by Centaurs". This suggets that the stars, as read by Centaurs, portend tragedy for Harry at the hands of Voldemort. He was in fact captured and tortured by V, but he escaped. Who knows how it will all end, but all these squishy predictions can be read as having come true to a certain extent. 4FR (tempted to pull out the horoscope and see what the stars have in store today) From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 15:51:00 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Deus ex Machina In-Reply-To: <9phs94+8uuq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011004155100.21606.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27144 --- frantyck at yahoo.com wrote: > True, and what makes it worse is that there is no explanation of how > Dumbledore dealt with Voldemort (and forget the old question about > how he zoomed straight past all the puzzle-obstacles that had > hindered HRH). Well that's an easy one. He'd set up the defenses after all, with help from his staff, I imagine he had the equivalent of a pass key. It would be a logical precaution especially as he half expected Harry to take Quiggle/Voldemort on and would naturally want to be able to get to the scene in a hurry if necessary. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 4 16:18:51 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:18:51 -0000 Subject: Cat, Rat and Dog Message-ID: <9pi25b+ebup@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27145 I have more questions about the events in this Chapter, and I am sincerely hoping the answers are not painfully obvious. Apologies in advance if they are. At the beginning of the Shrieking Shack scene, Black disarms Harry and Hermione and then says the following: "I thought you'd come and help your friend." "Your father would have done the same for me. Brave of you, not to run for a teacher. I'm grateful . . . it will make everything much easier." What does Black mean by "it will make everything much easier"? I would think the easiest thing for Black is to just have Ron and Pettigrew there, force Pettigrew to transform, kill him, and take him back to the castle. I must be missing something. Second question: Outside the Whomping Willow, Ron is lying on the ground with Scabbers while Harry and Hermione are on their feet. Sirius attacks Harry, then circles back and grabs Ron after Ron has stood up. Why doesn't Sirius just leave his godson alone and instead grab Ron while he is on the ground and drag him off, and why doesn't Harry or Hermione (especially Hermione) just use magic to overcome Sirius before he drags Ron away? Thanks. Cindy (thinking that Mobiliarbus spell Hermione used to move the Christmas Tree in Hogsmeade might have worked pretty well on the Whomping Willow) From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 16:19:44 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lost Colony + Fooling the GoF + POV In-Reply-To: <9pghko+vdb6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011004161944.83081.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27146 --- conshydot at email.com wrote: >Then Is the LOST colony really lost? >or is it hidden by strong magical >charms? The so-called Lost Colony went home with some Croatians, though they misspelled the note they left.;-) --- "Mindy C.L." wrote: >I am also wondering why it didn't >occur to all those who wanted to enter >but couldn't, like the Weasley twins, >to use the Confundus Charm to fool the >goblet into thinking they were older? The Confundus Charm was used to make the Goblet think there were *four* schools participating in a *TRI*-Wizard Tournament. It had nothing to do with age. While on this subject, though, I did wonder why no one thought to get a 20-ft pole and use it to put his/her name in or have an owl drop it in or wrap it around a piece of ice and throw it in or.... --- Amy Z wrote: >Very interesting question. Perhaps >she *is* going to write large chunks >of the next book from a different POV, >and chapter 1 of GoF was intended to >acclimate us. (Harry knows a bit >about that scene from a dream, but it >is not told from his POV; it's from >Frank Bryce's.) Say Snape *has* gone back to Voldemort as a spy. I could see JKR writing the end of a chapter where Dumbledore, Harry, etc. are together and Dumbledore says "Now, Severus, if you're ready, tell us what happened." The next chapter would be entitled Snape's Story and would be entirely first person from his POV. I think it could work. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 16:54:04 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:54:04 -0000 Subject: Cat, Rat and Dog In-Reply-To: <9pi25b+ebup@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pi47c+qvpn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27147 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I have more questions about the events in this Chapter, and I am > sincerely hoping the answers are not painfully obvious. Apologies > in advance if they are. > > At the beginning of the Shrieking Shack scene, Black disarms Harry > and Hermione and then says the following: > > "I thought you'd come and help your friend." "Your father > would have done the same for me. Brave of you, not to run for a > teacher. I'm grateful . . . it will make everything much easier." > > What does Black mean by "it will make everything much easier"? I > would think the easiest thing for Black is to just have Ron and > Pettigrew there, force Pettigrew to transform, kill him, and take > him back to the castle. I must be missing something. Obviously, the main reason for this sentence was so that we would still think Sirius was after Harry. But this is not an example of JKR's misdirection at its very best, IMO, because the real explanation is so, I don't know, contrived solely to make the false explanation sound right. It seems to me that the alleged real reason for Sirius making this comment is the fact that their not running for help will make things easier, not so much their presence there. When he goes after Ron, he is counting on them to follow because he probably assumes that they can do less to stop him than any teacher they might run and bring. He's probably right. But anyway, it's still a partially lame alternate interpretation. Either that or I'm missing something too. > Second question: Outside the Whomping Willow, Ron is lying on the > ground with Scabbers while Harry and Hermione are on their feet. > Sirius attacks Harry, then circles back and grabs Ron after Ron has > stood up. Why doesn't Sirius just leave his godson alone and > instead grab Ron while he is on the ground and drag him off, and why > doesn't Harry or Hermione (especially Hermione) just use magic to > overcome Sirius before he drags Ron away? I don't remember the details about this. I'd have to go whip out PoA. -Luke From devika261 at aol.com Thu Oct 4 17:01:11 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 13:01:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cat, Rat and Dog Message-ID: <163.1dc0c6a.28edefd7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27148 In a message dated Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:21:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: > I have more questions about the events in this Chapter, and I am > sincerely hoping the answers are not painfully obvious. Apologies in > advance if they are. > > At the beginning of the Shrieking Shack scene, Black disarms Harry > and Hermione and then says the following: > > "I thought you'd come and help your friend." "Your father > would have done the same for me. Brave of you, not to run for a > teacher. I'm grateful . . . it will make everything much easier." > > What does Black mean by "it will make everything much easier"? I > would think the easiest thing for Black is to just have Ron and > Pettigrew there, force Pettigrew to transform, kill him, and take him > back to the castle. I must be missing something. I think you partly answered this question yourself. Sirius wants to kill Peter Pettigrew and get it over with, and Harry's not going to get a teacher makes the situation less complicated. There are less people to interfere. I realize that it's already complicated since Harry is there at all, but I'll get to that next. > > Second question: Outside the Whomping Willow, Ron is lying on the > ground with Scabbers while Harry and Hermione are on their feet. > Sirius attacks Harry, then circles back and grabs Ron after Ron has > stood up. Why doesn't Sirius just leave his godson alone and instead > grab Ron while he is on the ground and drag him off, and why doesn't > Harry or Hermione (especially Hermione) just use magic to overcome > Sirius before he drags Ron away? Maybe Sirius was worried that if he didn't attack Harry, Harry would try to attack him before he could get Ron into the Whomping Willow. Also, his attacking Harry adds to the general confusion, so Harry and Hermione may be too overwhelmed by the bizarre nature of the situation to try to put a spell on Sirius. Harry and Hermione also might have been afraid that any spell they used against Sirius would hit Ron instead. When I first read this question, I thought you were asking why Sirius seemed to want Harry involved in the whole business. Upon another reading of the question, I realized that you probably weren't asking that, but I had an answer, so I'll say it anyway :) Sirius's first priority here is to kill Pettigrew by any means necessary. However, I'd say his next priority is to make sure that Harry understands the truth. Sirius obviously does care about Harry; after all, he makes an extra effort to see Harry before starting his journey to Hogwarts (the incident in Magnolia Crecent). I would bet that if Sirius had succeeded in getting Ron into the Shrieking Shack alone, and if he had killed Pettigrew right then and there, he would have come out afterwards, gone straight to Harry, and attempted to explain to him what had happened. As it is in this scene, Sirius knows that Harry will follow Ron into the Whomping Willow ("your father would have done the same for me"), and that, IMO, is part of his plan and is why he doesn't mind having Harry there, even though it just makes for a more chaotic scene. > > Thanks. You're welcome :) I hope this all makes sense. > > Cindy (thinking that Mobiliarbus spell Hermione used to move the > Christmas Tree in Hogsmeade might have worked pretty well on the > Whomping Willow) > Hmmm...I don't know about that one. That Willow is a rather large tree. Not to mention that it must be somewhat magical itself. Devika :) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 4 17:08:49 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:08:49 -0000 Subject: Different POVs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pi531+5hcl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27149 > Cindy wrote re: POV: > > >I wonder how JKR will handle this in OoP now that we have two > >separate "camps" (Voldemort's and Dumbledore's), but Harry only has > >access to Dumbledor's camp. At this point in the series, could JKR > >get away with switching to an objective omnicient POV? Would the > >books be as good if written in that fashion? > Amy wrote: > Very interesting question. Perhaps she *is* going to write large chunks of > the next book from a different POV, and chapter 1 of GoF was intended to > acclimate us. (Harry knows a bit about that scene from a dream, but it is > not told from his POV; it's from Frank Bryce's.) > Hmmm. I hadn't thought of this. But now that you mention it, Ch. 1 of GoF goes pretty far beyond Bryce's POV also. There is that whole historical bit about the Riddles' murders and Bryce's arrest as told from no one's perspective. So we move seamlessly from omnicient (I think), to Bryce's POV, to Harry's POV. A neat trick. Boy, I wish I understood the limits of an author's ability to move credibly back and forth among various points of view and how JKR is able to get away with this in GoF (and PS/SS also). Surely someone must understand this. Luke? Amy? Anyone? Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 4 17:38:29 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:38:29 -0000 Subject: Cat, Rat and Dog In-Reply-To: <163.1dc0c6a.28edefd7@aol.com> Message-ID: <9pi6ql+blap@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27150 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: Cindy wrote:> > > At the beginning of the Shrieking Shack scene, Black disarms Harry > > and Hermione and then says the following: > > > > "I thought you'd come and help your friend." "Your father > > would have done the same for me. Brave of you, not to run for a > > teacher. I'm grateful . . . it will make everything much easier." > > > > What does Black mean by "it will make everything much easier"? Devika wrote:> > I think you partly answered this question yourself. Sirius wants to kill Peter Pettigrew and get it over with, and Harry's not going to get a teacher makes the situation less complicated. There are less people to interfere. I realize that it's already complicated since Harry is there at all, but I'll get to that next. Ah, geez. It is their failure to bring a teacher that makes things easier, not their presence. This just blew right past me. Sorry. Luke wrote: Obviously, the main reason for this sentence was so that we would > still think Sirius was after Harry. But this is not an example of > JKR's misdirection at its very best, IMO, because the real explanation > is so, I don't know, contrived solely to make the false explanation > sound right. It seems to me that the alleged real reason for Sirius > making this comment is the fact that their not running for help will > make things easier, not so much their presence there. > Maybe I can blame my confusion on the awkwardness you identified, Luke. You see, Black has plenty of time to transform and kill Pettigrew if Hermione and Harry have to run all the way back to the castle, find a teacher and run back. So I completely dismissed the idea that Black is worried that the presence of a teacher will complicate matters. If anything, the presence of the right teacher would make things easier because Black would have someone to help him drag Pettigrew's corpse back to the castle and help ward off any dementors they might meet along the way. Devika wrote: >Harry and Hermione also might have been afraid that any spell they >used against Sirius would hit Ron instead. Good point! That, too, never occurred to me. > Devika wrote: > Sirius's first priority here is to kill Pettigrew by any means necessary. However, I'd say his next priority is to make sure that Harry understands the truth. I would bet that if Sirius had succeeded in getting Ron into the Shrieking Shack alone, and if he had killed Pettigrew right then and there, he would have come out afterwards, gone straight to Harry, and attempted to explain to him what had happened. I viewed Sirius' priorities a bit differently, or at least, I think what I'm about to say is different. I figure Sirius' first primal urge is to blast Pettigrew to tiny bits. His second more rational need is to kill (or at least disable or stun) Pettigrew to preserve the evidence to clear his name. A distant third is appealing to Harry. Once Sirius' name is cleared, Harry will understand. That said, I feel safe saying Sirius' thinking was quite muddled due to his volatile emotions and time in Azkaban. > > > > Cindy (thinking that Mobiliarbus spell Hermione used to move the > > Christmas Tree in Hogsmeade might have worked pretty well on the > > Whomping Willow) > > Devika wrote: > Hmmm...I don't know about that one. That Willow is a rather large tree. Not to mention that it must be somewhat magical itself. > > I guess another small quibble I have with this scene is that I expect wizards to try to work spells we've been told they know how to perform, even if the spell ultimately fails for some reason. Yes, people sometimes panic or forget, particularly if they are young, inexperienced wizards, and we've seen Harry do this. But the scene would have worked equally well had Harry proposed "rushing" the willow, but Hermione had attempted her charm to no effect. I think it would have actually built the tension up a bit more. Then Crookshanks could save the day by pressing the knot on the tree. I wonder if JKR just forgot she had established Hermione's ability to use the Mobiliarbus charm. From sweet_brunette27 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 4 18:04:39 2001 From: sweet_brunette27 at hotmail.com (Christina Davis) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:04:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would it take to really surprise you? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27151 >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: >- That a Weasley will go over to Voldemort. I don't think I could wrap my >mind around that one. Not even Percy. >- Denise First off, *waves*, new girl here. My name is Christy, I'm 21 and I hail from the fine state of New Jersey...now on to the "improbable plot line listed above". I admit that any Wesley going over to the dark side is stretching it but I think the most plausible out of all of them would be Ginny. She was "possessed" by Tom Riddle for awhile and who knows if any of that connection remains. She also seems to have a very vulnerable personality and therefore could possibly be swayed by the right person. I do see it as a situation where she would be saved or redeemed. I have a feeling, or maybe wish is the better word, that something big is planned for Ginny. I'd hate for the series to end with her characterization never going beyond that of a Harry Potter fangirl. Christy http://www.thepiratequeen.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 18:06:30 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:06:30 -0000 Subject: Cat, Rat and Dog In-Reply-To: <9pi25b+ebup@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pi8f6+k6ab@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27152 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > What does Black mean by "it will make everything much easier"? I > would think the easiest thing for Black is to just have Ron and > Pettigrew there, force Pettigrew to transform, kill him, and take him > back to the castle. I must be missing something. This really confused me for a long time, and it's only recently I (think) I've made sense of it: Sirius' primary intention is to kill Pettigrew. He knows that Harry and Hermione have witnessed Ron being pulled into the tunnel under the Whomping Willow. Therefore, he also knew that Harry would have two alternatives - to run for help, or to follow immediately. It is probable that Sirius saw Dumbledore et al, go into Hagrid's house and knows therefore, that they are in the grounds and not far away, so it makes sense for him to think that Harry would run for Dumbledore. Harry doesn't, however, and he and Hermione turning up without reinforcements means to Sirius that he has more chance of killing Pettigrew without interference. He knows that if Harry had turned up with Ministry officials, then the chances were that Aveda Kedavra would be performed immediately without any questions asked. I think, also, that Sirius' secondary intention was to set things right with Harry, and knew that it would be difficult to do so after the fact. Imagine what could have happened if Sirius killed Pettigrew whilst still in rat form, and he stayed in rat form when dead. He'd have absolutely no chance of clearing his name. (I don't know whether animagi do keep the form they are in when they die - anyone thought about this?) He knew that he'd have surprise on his side - and that he would be able to disarm Hermione and Harry. I don't think he did this because he wanted to attack them (obviously) but because he knew that he had some explaining to do, and wanted to make sure that Harry would be forced to listen to him. I don't think this comes through particularly well, because Sirius is very impatient to kill Pettigrew and is rather garbled. He is single- minded at this point, and probably doesn't realise exactly how bad his words sounds. > Second question: Outside the Whomping Willow, Ron is lying on the > ground with Scabbers while Harry and Hermione are on their feet. > Sirius attacks Harry, then circles back and grabs Ron after Ron has > stood up. Why doesn't Sirius just leave his godson alone and instead > grab Ron while he is on the ground and drag him off, and why doesn't > Harry or Hermione (especially Hermione) just use magic to overcome > Sirius before he drags Ron away? > > Thanks. Well, the only thing I can think of with the first part of this question is that Sirius is attacking indiscriminately because he doesn't want Harry and Hermione to stop him from getting at Pettigrew. In fact, Sirius reacts to Harry reaching for his wand. The exact quote is: "Harry reached for his wand, but too late - the dog had made an enormous leap and its front paws hit him on the chest." Then, Sirius heads straight for Ron and Scabbers again. So, this answers your second question. Harry tried to go for his wand, but Sirius had the element of surprise on his side and stopped him. Hermione we don't know about, because it's Harry's POV and he had enough to concentrate on to be aware of what she was doing, but my feeling is that she panicked or was in shock and also didn't get to her wand quickly enough. I hate to say this, because I love Hermione dearly, but she has shown before that she panics in a crisis, and this could have been one of those times. Catherine From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 18:08:48 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another triwizard tournament question In-Reply-To: <9phq33+objb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011004180848.17062.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27153 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." > wrote: > > I am also wondering why it didn't occur to all > those who wanted to enter > > but couldn't, like the Weasley twins, to use the > Confundus Charm to fool > > the goblet into thinking they were older? Well, the problem with Fred and George entering was not with the Goblet but with the Age Line Dumbledore drew around it. Once their name was in the Goblet, that was it. REmember, it was a more modern innovation that they limited the tournament to only those over 18. Perhaps the Confundus Charm requires an object to work on, and the Age Line, being only a line, doesn't count. :) Andrea Proud Gryffindor ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 18:24:22 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another triwizard tournament question In-Reply-To: <20011004180848.17062.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011004182422.5335.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27154 --- Andrea wrote: > REmember, it was a more modern > innovation that they limited the tournament to only > those over 18. Eep! Over 17, rather. I knew what I was saying. [g] Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 4 18:29:01 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:29:01 -0000 Subject: Eschewing Exoneration (filk) Message-ID: <9pi9pe+qbbr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27155 Eschewing Exoneration (from PoA) (To the tune of Reviewing the Situation, from Oliver) Dedicated to Pippin (her "Consider My Plight" filk, also derived from Oliver, reminded me of this song) (THE SCENE: The Shrieking Shack. HARRY is trying to make sense of the amazing disclosures from the three surviving authors of the Marauder's Map) HARRY He's my parents' killer, wasn't he? He wants me dead too - well, doesn't he? For a year he's pursued me without any sign of restraint So Black is the blackest of villains ? but maybe he ain't.... I'm eschewing exoneration It is clear to me that Black is on the make It seems he still has some expectation He'll yet get his chance to burn me at the stake When Black fled from the wizard jail They put dementors on his tail He's broken into Hogwarts twice The Fat Lady he sliced and diced Over dad's death I heard him gloat I felt his hands around my throat .I don't think I need to think this out again! But how then could Lupin disown us He helped me to learn the Patronus And although of his lycanthropy we had yet to be told It's as plain as the hair on his face that his heart is gold .. I'm reviewing these accusations Lupin swears to me that man is innocent Are they acting from desperation Or did Sirius Black get up the river sent? When Lupin burst into this place He grasped him in a warm embrace He says that Black his freedom lost When by a comrade double-crossed But with the aid of Crookshanks Cat Black's trapped his target: Scabbers Rat! .I think I need to think this out again! The Marauder's Map said he was present And even though Ron voiced his dissent And I gave a reminder that for twelve long years he'd been dead But where Scabbers once stood, here stands Wormtail instead .. I'm construing these conversations Can I determine who's with us and who's accursed? Have I acquired such information To establish what's on second, who's on first? With Animagi past unveiled His excuses were soon derailed Peter confessed that craven fright Surrendered him to Voldy's might The lives they trusted him to shield.... Secrets to keep that he revealed.... ...I don't think that I can think of this again! In the midst of this signal confusion Snape made a characteristic intrusion It's been his great ambition to be the Deus machina - But the three of us acted to then chill his demeanor.... They're outdoing each revelation We're astounded by each story that appears ALTHOUGH THESE UPPER-CASE EXCLAMATIONS I'M AFRAID BECOME QUITE WEARING ON ONE'S EARS!!! Black looked me in the eye to say He'd meet death rather than betray My godfather he is, you see A task he takes quite...seriously If I go home as his godson My days on Privet Drive are done... I think I've thought this through now to the end! Hey! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 4 19:29:27 2001 From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 19:29:27 -0000 Subject: Favorite HP "Speech" Message-ID: <9pidan+mqag@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27156 The HP series has a lot of good speeches in it. I was reading PS/SS, and I have decided that this is my favorite HP speech: "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses . . . . I can teach you to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." Snape, PS/SS, Ch. 8. Does anyone else have a favorite? Laura - reserving the right to change her mind and decide a different speech is really her favorite From linman6868 at aol.com Thu Oct 4 19:30:11 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 19:30:11 -0000 Subject: "Dam' Good Auror" In-Reply-To: <9pi8f6+k6ab@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pidc3+31ob@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27157 Catherine wrote re: Cat, Rat, and Dog: > I hate to say this, because I love > Hermione dearly, but she has shown before that she panics in a > crisis, and this could have been one of those times. This seems like a good opportunity to put forward something I've been stewing on for a while. *flashes a dazzling smile* Don't worry, you'll have your Trio back when I get through with them, ha-ha-ha! I recently converted my friend to HP (after allowing myself to be converted to "The West Wing"), and one of the comments she made to me after finishing GoF was that Harry, Ron, and Hermione together "make a damn good Auror. When they're apart, not so much" -- at least, not yet. I thought about this, and realized that it's actually a very good description of how the Trio works together: 1) In PS/SS, the Trio become friends, then each use their particular strengths to solve the problem and apprehend the malefactor. Harry uses his intuition to divine connections between package, Gringotts burglary, and third-floor corridor; Hermione's research skills tell them what the suspect is after; Ron's impulsive energy culminates in his masterly rout of the white queen. After the chess game, Hermione's logic and Harry's intuition and stubbornness together finish solving the case. 2) In CoS, Harry and Ron are paired together to balance intuition and impulse to puzzle out what Hagrid means about the spiders, what the bathroom has to do with Moaning Myrtle, and, with Hermione's research pried out from her Petrified fingers, find the Chamber of Secrets and rescue Ginny. 3) In PoA, when they are not busy fighting or battling demons from the past, the Trio uses their solidarity to shore up one another's weaknesses and confront Sirius, Lupin, Snape, Wormtail, and the dementors. In fact, they might have solved this one sooner if they hadn't all been fighting; Harry and Ron may (or may not) have benefited from Hermione's knowledge about Lupin, and Hermione could have benefited from Harry's intuition (and nocturnal witness) about Crookshanks. It is possible that between them they might have puzzled out what the black dog has to do with a live cat, and what they both have to do with a rat. 4) In GoF, their abilities as a three-fold Auror are again sidetracked by squabbling (with the addition of puberty), and by an understandable misapprehension of why Harry is in the Triwizard Tournament. While they are training Harry for the third task, Ron comments that this training will do them all good "for when we're all Aurors." What Ron doesn't realize is that together, they already *are* an Auror, and they've accomplished feats that rival Mad-Eye Moody's at his height. 5) In each case, where one member of the Trio is weak, another is strong. Hermione's documented panic under pressure ("Are you a witch or not!?") is balanced by Ron's impulsive energy (a double-edged sword in most cases) which is balanced by Harry's intuitive talents (coupled with his tendency to dig in his heels) which are balanced by Hermione's research abilities -- and so on. Now, this is pretty much old hat. What's new is, we're giving the Trio's teamwork a designation -- Aurorhood. (That looks really funny.) While I'm not sure that Hermione, Ron, and Harry can make a career out of their teamwork, as students they seem to have one up on the Ministry for effectiveness -- which, considering their recent obstacles, doesn't say much for the Ministry. :) So, whaddaya think? Lisa I., delurking From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 4 19:39:42 2001 From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 19:39:42 -0000 Subject: What would it take to really surprise you? In-Reply-To: <9phqte+qffm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pidtu+74gr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27158 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > The only sure thing about OoP is that there will be surprises, and > > I'll bet this group has figured out a few of them. But what would > it really take to really blindside a L.O.O.N.? > > > > There are two plot developments that JKR could use that would > really throw me for a loop. The first involves Snape. We've all > speculated about whether he is a vampire, and most people do not > think so, even though JKR has left clues to push us in that > direction. > > > > But what if Snape if part dementor? He likes dark places, > > he "glides" (like dementors do), he's not very nice. Now, I'll > admit that I can't wrap my mind around one of Snape's wizard > ancestors having relations with a Dementor, but then again, Fleur is > part Veela and Hagrid is part giant. The idea is definitely wild. > > > > > > Anyone else have a wild and highly improbable theory they'd like to > > share? > > A theory that I have been reluctant to share (because it is kind of dumb) is that the many references to Snape's greasy hair are important. Snape is some sort of creature that cannot tolerate water, so he cannot wash his hair. He can wipe his skin, but rinsing his hair would be the end of him. So maybe Voldemort will kill Snape by hosing him down. OK, I said it was dumb, but if this happens, I'll be really surprised. Laura From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 19:54:13 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 19:54:13 -0000 Subject: Eschewing Exoneration (filk) In-Reply-To: <9pi9pe+qbbr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9piep5+ciql@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27159 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > Eschewing Exoneration (from PoA) > Caius, I am yet again, in awe. Once I'd got passed hearing Ron Moody as Fagin instead of Harry (which is, you have to admit, rather disconcerting), I loved it! (especially, seriously!) Thank you for being so consistently inspired! Catherine From lucy at luphen.co.uk Thu Oct 4 21:35:49 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 22:35:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another triwizard tournament question References: <20011004182422.5335.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c14d1c$bddec1c0$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27160 What I think is really unfair is that rather than an age limit, it was a year limit - why should one student in 6th year be allowed to enter because they'd just had a birthday, and others in 6th year be forbidden - they've all had the same education. I think Dumbledore should have made his Age Line a Year Line instead - I'm sure the 'greatest wizard of our times' could have managed that, couldn't he?? Lucy, who's wishing she'd come up with a more interesting usename like so many of you others have! ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrea To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 7:24 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another triwizard tournament question --- Andrea wrote: > REmember, it was a more modern > innovation that they limited the tournament to only > those over 18. Eep! Over 17, rather. I knew what I was saying. [g] Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 4 21:42:11 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 21:42:11 -0000 Subject: triwizard & Voldemort's smarts In-Reply-To: <9phsun+5342@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pil3j+m2c4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27161 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Cindy (wondering if Trelawney might decide to convert to the Dark > Side if her Inner Eye tells her that Voldemort will prevail over > Dumbledore) I can't see Trelawney making such a decision based on who would be the prevailing force. She strikes me as the kind who is not remotely interested in politics of any kind, as she's so entwined in her own little metaphorical planet. What *may* push her over the edge towards the Dark Side is if she's shown more *respect*. Dumbledore appears to respect her; he wouldn't have her on staff if he didn't believe in her competence (I use the term loosely, I assure you). But the rest of the staff treats her like a daft old bat, if they acknowledge her at all. If Voldy et al showed her supposed respect that she feels she's not getting at Hogwarts, perhaps she could be swayed. Trelawney bothers me in that I can't figure her out. Logic screams at me to label her a complete fraud, but (a) then why is she a staff member and (b) that's not JKR's style. She'll either remain a complete twat and have a pivotal plot role, like Lockheart, or she'll surprise everyone by showing herself as a very powerful witch or some such. Mary Ann (who desparately wants to whack Trelawney with a blunt object) From lucy at luphen.co.uk Thu Oct 4 21:41:12 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 22:41:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would it take to really surprise you? References: <9pidtu+74gr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00c001c14d1d$6109b120$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27162 I love it! And what a wonderful image of Snape as the Wicked Witch of the West, melting away!! Something I'd like to see in the next book, as well as Ginny's alleged increased role, would be for Ron to come out on top a bit more. He's quite right to be miffed - although they don't mean it, Harry and Hermione constantly outshine him, and I'd love to see him work something crucial out, or do something that saves the day. Lucy, always a supporter of the underdog. ----- Original Message ----- From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 8:39 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would it take to really surprise you? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > The only sure thing about OoP is that there will be surprises, and > > I'll bet this group has figured out a few of them. But what would > it really take to really blindside a L.O.O.N.? > > > > There are two plot developments that JKR could use that would > really throw me for a loop. The first involves Snape. We've all > speculated about whether he is a vampire, and most people do not > think so, even though JKR has left clues to push us in that > direction. > > > > But what if Snape if part dementor? He likes dark places, > > he "glides" (like dementors do), he's not very nice. Now, I'll > admit that I can't wrap my mind around one of Snape's wizard > ancestors having relations with a Dementor, but then again, Fleur is > part Veela and Hagrid is part giant. The idea is definitely wild. > > > > > > Anyone else have a wild and highly improbable theory they'd like to > > share? > > A theory that I have been reluctant to share (because it is kind of dumb) is that the many references to Snape's greasy hair are important. Snape is some sort of creature that cannot tolerate water, so he cannot wash his hair. He can wipe his skin, but rinsing his hair would be the end of him. So maybe Voldemort will kill Snape by hosing him down. OK, I said it was dumb, but if this happens, I'll be really surprised. Laura Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From avatar7 at uole.com.ve Thu Oct 4 21:40:52 2001 From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:40:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Request for Anti-HP Video In-Reply-To: <9pftc1+d755@eGroups.com> References: <9pftc1+d755@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <01100417405207.09981@sysop> No: HPFGUIDX 27163 On Date Wednesday 03 October 2001 04:44, You Wrote: > Hi, all-- > > Again, I think that HP4GU ought to have *something* on the Web that > answers these protests via educating the "bashers" on both sides of > the equation. The Religion FAQ is a good idea, but I'd love an > information page pertaining to this. If you're interested, please > let me know. Hello to everyone! Well, I've read the issue with much worry, since I felt it somehow touched myself, not only as an avid HP reader, but as a member of the Gay community. I have been accustomed to belonging to a minority either as a Gay man, as a Musician, as a "Nerd" or whatever you might like to name it, and therefore have seen oh-so-many-times how misinformation can lead to sometimes dangerous picketing groups like these ones. I can aknowledge some radical groups would just picket against anything going against their so-called "Values" or simply something that would be big enough to make them feel unsure about the very worst greed: Power. When they killed Matthew Sheppard, ( I Think that was his name), a young student who was murdered by two late teens which wounded him deadly and tied him to something (I think it was a tree) besides a road until he died... There was this group which claims God hates homosexual people and therefore they feel they can be the very God's own hand to execute "God's Will" against anyone who might be against them. They even dared to build a picket line to claim "God's word" against gay people at the very burial of poor Matthew. Now tell me about who evil and who is not, those people torturing everybody with their hatred and stuff... It took a lot of work from everyone to TEACH people we are simply human beings, and there was no "evil" as they said... ... So it seems this new group (or not so new, I am not even interested on knowing about it) plans to do somewhat the same old thing: Picketing on anything that goes either too big for them tastes or just against their "Values", so they can spend money on making a video and stuff like that. Would they receive a real profit from this? Maybe from prejudiced parents and some religious radicals. I have a friend of mine which is a Wiccan wizard. He happens to be Gay as well, but not because Wicca says so. I have read some texts (Mostly wanting additional reading since I've read HP ) about Wica itself and what I've found is definitely no evil at all. Even more, their motto is to do anything you feel like doing AS LONG AS YOU DON'T HARM ANYONE OR ANYTHING. SPECIALLY Mother Nature AND Humankind. I Find this silly, indeed I even laughed at some of the comments some people on the list made to the initial posts (As in comparing which would be classified as "Evil" or "contact with the dead" and stuff. Even Catholic Roman church (In which I was baptised and stopped believing since I was a very young kid already) speaks about it, and NOT in a negative way, But it is not the time to talk about it now. Silly indeed, I still find useful to build a coalition or at least some information source so people can know "the truth" (Or at least OUR truth) about this, and our voices let be heard... Humble two sickles... ------------------------------ Juan Carlos De La Cruz. DeGoPro.com General Manager. SysOp.Tech and Op Dept. IFX Networks Venezuela Profesionnal Musician and Composer. Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw. "Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do here!" -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Oct 4 23:05:17 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 23:05:17 -0000 Subject: Summary/Questions: PS/SS Chapter One In-Reply-To: <9pe06k+7lrl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pipvd+pbvp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27164 Jana wrote: > > 1. What > things in this chapter do you see as foreshadowing to the coming > books? Why do you feel these things are pertinent to the series? Why did McGonagall spend all day there just to get the latest about the Potters? I think she had some other role, and since Dumbledore had clearly not asked her to be there, it's not part of his plan to protect Harry. When I first read the book, I assumed it was sinister. Three more books on, I don't think that, but it still puzzles me. Dedalus Diggle is an obvious candidate too. What do we deduce from the fact that his parents couldn't spell Daedalus? Jim McGuffin could well be a leading Death Eater. Dumbledore will need to rescue Hagrid, who will get stuck in the turnstiles on the London Underground. He will only be able to do this because of the map on his knee. > > 2. Many believe the series will come full circle, with everything > trailing back to that fateful night on 31 October 1981. Do you > agree? Yes. It's the central mystery of the series: why did V attack Harry? How did Harry survive? Why did V lose his powers? What is the significance of his scar? > 3. A speculation on what might have been: How would Harry's life be > different if he had spent his childhood growing up in the wizarding > world? Would it be better or worse? Would be have the ego of > Gilderoy Lockhart or would he be as insecure as he had been coming > out of the shelter of the Dursleys? He might well have felt very insecure, if still alive, after many attacks by disgruntled DEs. Of course, one possibility is that he may have been *adopted* by Lockhart: "No, no Albus, I can take care of it. It's really very simple." (waves wand) "Harrypotterforgrownups... oops, well, yes, that can sometimes happen. Never mind, Albus, I'm sure I can leave it in your capable hands to clear it up. He's no longer a newbie, that's the main thing." > > 4. If George had been in this chapter, how might he have affected > the story? No, really. :-D He would have been 3... he might have prodded Harry and woken him? Decided it would be a good joke to swap him for baby Ron? David From devika261 at aol.com Thu Oct 4 23:34:24 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 19:34:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would it take to really surprise you? Message-ID: <161.1eb2424.28ee4c01@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27165 In a message dated Thu, 4 Oct 2001 3:45:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com writes: > A theory that I have been reluctant to share (because it is kind of > dumb) is that the many references to Snape's greasy hair are > important. Snape is some sort of creature that cannot tolerate > water, so he cannot wash his hair. He can wipe his skin, but rinsing > his hair would be the end of him. So maybe Voldemort will kill Snape > by hosing him down. > > OK, I said it was dumb, but if this happens, I'll be really surprised. > > Laura > You mean, like the Wicked Witch of the West? *I'm melting, melting...* (sorry, couldn't resist) Devika :) From muggle-reader at angelfire.com Thu Oct 4 23:36:54 2001 From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 23:36:54 -0000 Subject: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <20011001230159.56069.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pirqm+ov22@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27166 I agree with other group members that NYC would be a good location for one of the American schools. However, I think Manhattan is too crowded already. Maybe the school is located in one of the 5 boroughs: Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island, Staten Island. Out of the boroughs, I would opt for the Bronx. The Bronx in the 18th to 19th centuries was countryside (a good place to hide a wizarding school). Edgar Allen Poe lived there for a while in what was to become the Grand Concourse. By the early 20th century, it became more industrialized and more populated. The Grand Concourse was the place to go to be seen and to shop.. A school could have existed in this area at that time in the disguise of an iron foundry or some sort of factory or warehouse. Likewise, a school can still exist today in the disguise of a warehouse or crumbling factory. I agree, too, that there are probably several schools located throughout the US and Canada. One is probably located in the Mid- West, maybe in Nebraska: vast areas of farm land is a feasible place to build and conceal a wizarding school. One probably located on the West Coast. I vote for San Francisco: the various earthquakes could be the result of Potions experiments or Charms exercises gone awry. In the South, maybe one of the more mountainous states like Tennessee: easy to conceal and disguise a school in the mountains or in a valley. There's probably a school in Central America and several in South America too. From kristen at sanderson-web.com Fri Oct 5 00:45:50 2001 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (kristen at sanderson-web.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 00:45:50 -0000 Subject: What would it take to really surprise you? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pivru+b13@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27167 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christina Davis" wrote: > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > >- That a Weasley will go over to Voldemort. I don't think I could wrap my > >mind around that one. Not even Percy. > >- Denise > > First off, *waves*, new girl here. My name is Christy, I'm 21 and I hail > from the fine state of New Jersey...now on to the "improbable plot line > listed above". I admit that any Wesley going over to the dark side is > stretching it but I think the most plausible out of all of them would be > Ginny. She was "possessed" by Tom Riddle for awhile and who knows if any of > that connection remains. She also seems to have a very vulnerable > personality and therefore could possibly be swayed by the right person. I > do see it as a situation where she would be saved or redeemed. > I have a feeling, or maybe wish is the better word, that something big is > planned for Ginny. I'd hate for the series to end with her characterization > never going beyond that of a Harry Potter fangirl. > > Christy > http://www.thepiratequeen.net JKR has definitely gone out of her way to say in interviews that Ginny will have a bigger part in OoP. However, I think it would have to be Percy that would be questionable. Once in Diagon Alley, they found him reading a book called "Prefects Who Gained Power" (remember that Quirrell said in SS that Voldemort showed him that there was no good and evil - only power and those too weak to seek it - sorry don't have direct quote). Also, in GoF, Ron makes many references to Percy's ambition. He was concerned that Percy would turn in Fred and George if they were doing something illegal. Also, at the end of GoF, Dumbledore is setting up some major rule breaking at the MoM and we all know how much Percy likes rules :). I think enough stuff was set up to at least put Percy's loyalty in question. As far as Ginny is concerned, she was "possessed" by Tom Riddle, but how is that different from Harry having a part of Voldemort in him from the failed curse? I'm not sure that her possession would be a problem - maybe it will give her an advantage in helping (I just can't stand the thought of Ginny going to the dark side :). As far as surprises, I've been wondering what about the Dursleys we will learn that we wouldn't expect. JKR has alluded to this in a couple of interviews and I just can't imagine what it would be unless Dudley discovers he has magical powers. I'm also wondering if they are part of the ancient magic Dumbledore conjured up to protect Harry. Hmmm... Kristen - also a relatively new poster From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Oct 5 01:02:10 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 01:02:10 -0000 Subject: Getting Away with It (Was: the idea that snape loved lily) In-Reply-To: <20011003200137.52961.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pj0qj+ck9n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27168 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > Personally I see no indication or necessity for > Snape having any interest at all in Lily Evans. He > makes it quite clear he hated James, (and the other > marauders) and now Harry for their 'arrogance' and > because they constantly break rules and get away with > it. This line of thinking has come up before regarding Snape's view of James, etal. and their ability to get away with things or not be punished for their actions. I don't think that canon shows that to be the case. McGonagall remarks in PoA in the scene in the Three Broomsticks that James and Sirius were troublemakers, which to me means that they were caught a fair number of times. I think that the Marauders did receive what the professors felt were punishments to fit their misdeeds, as do Fred and George for their pranks. The punishments, detentions, or whatever probably did nothing to change anyone's behavior. James, Sirius and Remus were reportedly bright students, so they could afford to goof off and still not have that affect them academically. Fred and George don't really seem to be particularly concerned about OWLS and NEWTS, as they want to follow an entrepreneurial path and open a joke shop. So, I don't think these five students cared about whatever punishments they got. I wonder if part of Snape's dislike springs from the fact that punishment doesn't make these guys behave and obey the rules. If the punishment never changes the behavior, it's not a big step to start thinking that the miscreants are getting away with things. They're not; they just don't care about the consequences of getting caught. So, perhaps that then makes Snape feel that the professors are not meting out appropriately severe punishment. And, if he doesn't think the punishment is strong enough, then, again, he'll be left with the feeling that they're getting away with it. I'm going to indulge in rampant speculation here. We know James was Head Boy. It hardly seems that he'd be setting a good example for younger students if he was constantly breaking the rules and serving detentions. Maybe he did continue his prankster career as Head Boy, and whenever the Marauders were fingered as the culprits, Sirius, Remus and Peter would take the fall and cover for James. If Snape realized this was going on, but couldn't provide the professors with evidence, then that would certainly fuel Severus' feelings that James got away with things. But, to my knowledge, we don't know that this was the case. Marianne, who knows that sometimes, you have to break the rules From kristen at sanderson-web.com Fri Oct 5 01:28:00 2001 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (kristen at sanderson-web.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 01:28:00 -0000 Subject: Getting Away with It (Was: the idea that snape loved lily) In-Reply-To: <9pj0qj+ck9n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pj2b0+qs3p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27169 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > This line of thinking has come up before regarding Snape's view of > James, etal. and their ability to get away with things or not be > punished for their actions. I don't think that canon shows that to > be the case. McGonagall remarks in PoA in the scene in the Three > Broomsticks that James and Sirius were troublemakers, which to me > means that they were caught a fair number of times. I think that the > Marauders did receive what the professors felt were punishments to > fit their misdeeds, as do Fred and George for their pranks. > > The punishments, detentions, or whatever probably did nothing to > change anyone's behavior. James, Sirius and Remus were reportedly > bright students, so they could afford to goof off and still not have > that affect them academically. Fred and George don't really seem to > be particularly concerned about OWLS and NEWTS, as they want to > follow an entrepreneurial path and open a joke shop. So, I don't > think these five students cared about whatever punishments they got. > > I wonder if part of Snape's dislike springs from the fact that > punishment doesn't make these guys behave and obey the rules. If the > punishment never changes the behavior, it's not a big step to start > thinking that the miscreants are getting away with things. They're > not; they just don't care about the consequences of getting caught. > So, perhaps that then makes Snape feel that the professors are not > meting out appropriately severe punishment. And, if he doesn't think > the punishment is strong enough, then, again, he'll be left with the > feeling that they're getting away with it. > > I'm going to indulge in rampant speculation here. We know James was > Head Boy. It hardly seems that he'd be setting a good example for > younger students if he was constantly breaking the rules and serving > detentions. Maybe he did continue his prankster career as Head Boy, > and whenever the Marauders were fingered as the culprits, Sirius, > Remus and Peter would take the fall and cover for James. If Snape > realized this was going on, but couldn't provide the professors with > evidence, then that would certainly fuel Severus' feelings that James > got away with things. But, to my knowledge, we don't know that this > was the case. > > Marianne, who knows that sometimes, you have to break the rules Well, I can indulge in a little computer chair Psychology... :) It could be that Snape simply suffers from low self esteem. People with this problem sometimes look to people who are confident in their abilities as egotistical and generally don't like them. Severus probably saw James, Sirius and Remus as the "popular people" because they did well in school, had a lot of friends, got away with a lot, and were socially adept. He probably felt left out. Of course, this doesn't make for a very interesting plot twist! :) Kristen From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 01:37:31 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lost Colony Found? In-Reply-To: <20011004161944.83081.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011005013731.33460.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27170 --- Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- conshydot at email.com wrote: > > >Then Is the LOST colony really lost? > >or is it hidden by strong magical > >charms? Of course! The Roanoke colony was made up of wizards and witches and disappeared deliberately! Sir Francis Drake evacuated the first colony at Roanoke, and everybody knows he was a wizard. He undoubtedly suggested to others in the Wizarding community that the new land, Virginia, would be a fine place to get away from the threat of Muggle persecution. The colonists who signed on for Sir Walter Raleigh's second try at colonization were a mixed bag of Muggles and Wizards, the former not realizing the latter had their own agenda. After the colonizers' ship left taking John White to England it wasn't difficult for the Wizard half of the expedition to engineer a seperation. The colonists were originally intended to settle in the chesapeake region so it was easy to guide the Muggles into deciding to move on up there while the Wizards, who included most of the women and children, stayed behind to wait for the ship. Or so they said. The moment the Muggle contingent was well away the Wizard colonists abandoned the stockade on Roanoke to join forces with a tribe of native American Wizards, the Croatans. Leaving the name Croatan carved on a post for John White to find so he'd know all had gone as planned. What wasn't planned was the mysterious disappearance of the Muggle colonists. John White was never able to locate them dispite repeated efforts, nor were the Wizard colonists. It seems most likely that they, like the Wizards, joined forces with a friendly Indian tribe in the Chesapeake region and were eventually massacred along with their hosts by Chief Powhattan, (father of Pocahontas). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 01:52:32 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione Panicking (was Cat, Rat and Dog) In-Reply-To: <9pi6ql+blap@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011005015232.82556.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27171 Ron's line, "Have you gone mad? Are you a witch or aren't you?" is one of my favorites in the whole series. Actually it's very simple to explain why Hermione forgot she didn't need wood to make a fire - or Harry's forgetting to use a summoning spell to get his golden egg back. Both have been raised as Muggles, which means both have Muggle rather than Wizardly instincts. Under pressure H&H tend to forget their magical powers because they are frankly not accustomed to having them. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 5 02:24:51 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 02:24:51 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint? Message-ID: <9pj5lj+h80d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27172 My seven-year-old daughter believes she has found a possible FLINT in the following passage in PoA, The Servant of Lord Voldemort (the alleged FLINT is in all caps): "Professor Lupin?" said Hermione timidly. "Can--can I say something?" "Certainly, Hermione," said Lupin courteously. Well--Scabbers--I mean, this -- this man--he's been sleeping in Harry's dormitory for three years. If he's working for You-Know-Who, how come he never tried to hurt Harry before now?" "There!" said Pettigrew shrilly, POINTING AT RON with his maimed hand. "Thank you! You see, Remus? I have never hurt a hair of Harry's head! Why should I?" Given that Hermione posed the question, and the question concerns Harry, Pettigrew should be pointing at either Hermione or Harry, not Ron. What do you think? Is it a FLINT, and has it been previously spotted? Can I tell my kid she is a mini-L.O.O.N? Cindy (who thinks perhaps the children have been exposed to a bit too much HP) From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 02:40:45 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 02:40:45 -0000 Subject: Hermione Panicking (was Cat, Rat and Dog) In-Reply-To: <20011005015232.82556.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pj6jd+90ob@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27173 I completely agree with you... first of all that is a great line! It does show the difference of growing up in one life verses another! H&H are both very strong at thier magical ablities, but since they did not get raised dealing with knowing the magical side, sometimes their lack of instincts. Sort of the subject, but since the new season of tv has just come out, there are many shows with new characters lost in their new element of the show and sometimes do not respond to certin events within the show as the more established characters would! THis is the same concept as H&H not always thinking in the magical way. However, that's one of the reason we love Ron so much. He is like their magical compass reminding them which direction is Right/Magical North! It makes Ron a wonderful insight into growing up a wizard, since we really only see (at least in SS) Harry's life before Hogwarts! Hopefully with OoP Harry will be able to spend time with the Wesleys' so we can watch the warmth Harry is finally allowed. Another sort of off the subject thought... but you know I really believe Harry would give up every bit of the Potter fortune just to have a family, have brothers or and sisters. I also believe that if he could find a way to give some or even all of his fortune to the Wesleys' for everything they have done for him, he would. We get proof of this when he gives F&G the gold at the end GF! Oops... I already chatted about this. I guess just knowing the pain of losing his family, dealing with the Dursleys, then dealing with all of the different "truths" about Siris and then losing him, Harry just wants to belong, feel loved, and be needed. However, let's be honest, Harry using Siris against the Dursley's... "Yes, I have," said Harry, "He was my mum and dad's best friend. He's a convected murderer, but he's broken out of wizard prison and he's on the run. He likes to keep in touch with me, though...keep up with my news... check if I'm happy...." And, grinning broadly at the look of horror on Uncle's Vernon's face, Harry set off toward the station exit, Hedwig rattling along in front of him, for what looking like a munch better summer than last. Go Harry!!!! Sometimes getting even with evil is worth it! Ok, the Dursley's are no Vol, but they are still very evil, in their own right! Laura --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > Ron's line, "Have you gone mad? Are you a witch or > aren't you?" is one of my favorites in the whole > series. > Actually it's very simple to explain why Hermione > forgot she didn't need wood to make a fire - or > Harry's forgetting to use a summoning spell to get his > golden egg back. > Both have been raised as Muggles, which means both > have Muggle rather than Wizardly instincts. Under > pressure H&H tend to forget their magical powers > because they are frankly not accustomed to having them. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 02:54:55 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 02:54:55 -0000 Subject: Flint? (has it been noticed yet?) Message-ID: <9pj7dv+d9je@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27174 at the end of GoF, at least in my edition, it says that since there is no longer a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, HR&H use those *free lessons* to go down and visit with Hagrid... but, the Third Task takes place on the last day of finals. Isn't the week after finals but before going home class free? M. *hoping she's the first to notice this, but is not holding her breath...* From joym999 at aol.com Fri Oct 5 03:38:42 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 03:38:42 -0000 Subject: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <9pirqm+ov22@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pja02+tb0e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27175 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" wrote: > I agree with other group members that NYC would be a good location > for one of the American schools. However, I think Manhattan is too > crowded already. Maybe the school is located in one of the 5 > boroughs: Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island, Staten Island. The 5 boroughs of New York are the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and Manhattan. Manhattan is ONE of the 5 boroughs. NYC consists of 5 boroughs, of which Manhattan is one. Long Island is not part of NYC. It is an island upon which Brooklyn, Queens (2 of the boroughs of NYC) are located, as are Nassau and Suffolk counties. Sorry to sound so pissy but misidentifying your boroughs is considered a capital offense in NYC, and I am just trying to save you from a hanging. > Out of > the boroughs, I would opt for the Bronx. The Bronx in the 18th to > 19th centuries was countryside (a good place to hide a wizarding > school). Edgar Allen Poe lived there for a while in what was to > become the Grand Concourse. By the early 20th century, it became more > industrialized and more populated. The Grand Concourse was the place > to go to be seen and to shop.. A school could have existed in this > area at that time in the disguise of an iron foundry or some sort of > factory or warehouse. ALL of New York City was largely farmland in the 18th century and much of Manhattan was still farmland even in the 19th century. >Likewise, a school can still exist today in the > disguise of a warehouse or crumbling factory. > Yep, like in an abandoned warehouse on the West Side of Manhattan. Sorry for a largely OT post, but I just could not stand to have my beloved home town be misidentified. We Newyawkers are EXTREMELY sensitive that way. --Joywitch From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Oct 5 04:41:53 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 04:41:53 -0000 Subject: Trelawney going bad? Message-ID: <9pjdmh+msv8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27176 Hi, everybody, normally, I faithfully stick to the rule of citing exactly who said what, only that until 10 October, being online still costs me a phone call to Italy (on the 10th, I'll get my Austrian connection), so I'm writing this on a word document first and then pasting it into a mail and therefore don't have the references at hand- forgive me, oh cited ones! Answering the question about what it would need to give us a really good surprise in OoP, somebody responded that it would be Trelawney going over to the Dark Side, and somebody else argued that she's too much of a detached, completely disinterested-in-daily-reality character. In PoA, though, when she makes her true prediction, she does so in a weird baritone voice- obviously a male voice and certainly not her own. She seems to be in a trance and possessed by somebody who speaks through her- Voldemort??? Now, if she can be possessed once, it could happen again and so there would be a fair chance of her going over, not voluntarily, but "possessedly". Moreover, IMO her being sooo harmless is an impression we get through many students' eyes and by some comments from Dumbledore and McGonagall. Remember, when (in GoF or PoA- can't control right now), for a moment, she drops the mask and "she sounds more like McGonagall than her usual airy-fairy self?" It might be a Red Herring, but it might also point at some very unpleasant revelation about her. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 From catlady at wicca.net Fri Oct 5 05:25:15 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 05:25:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Age and Time Turner - Twins - Gay Characters Message-ID: <9pjg7r+j7ul@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27177 Mirzam Black wrote: > Let's imagine, that her days are like 6 > hours longer than normal day.. In my > opinion, Hermione is actually very much > older than she should be.. This has already resulted in a long thread, but I just wanted to say that I had had the same thought while first reading PoA, until I got to the part where she discloses the whole secret, and it turned out that she only had TWO extra hours per day, not six as I had thought -- no wonder the poor kid is exhausted, she doesn't create any extra time for sleeping or even for doing the extra homework! s_luhtanen wrote: > That explains how she was having breasts as early as 14 I think... People have already explained that 14 isn't early, 13 isn't early. In addition, if you're refering to the Yule Ball in GoF, she was FIFTEEN, having been 14 at the start of term but turned 15 on her birthday September 19. Laura Hickman wrote: > wouldn't that mean that both Lily > and Petunia both would have magical > powers, if identical but if they were > feturnal (i know i spelled that one wrong) > twins then maybe one of them could be > magical and maybe one without magic. Somewhere we were told that Parvati and Padma Patil are identical twins, but we know that Lily and Petunia, if twins, are fraternal because they look different: not just red hair versus blond hair, but Petunia doesn't have green eyes. Deeblite wrote: > I somehow don't think that [making a character gay] would even occur to her. It would occur to her if she was basing a character on a real person and that real person was known to her to be gay. From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 07:47:25 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 07:47:25 -0000 Subject: Trelawney going bad? In-Reply-To: <9pjdmh+msv8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pjoid+f7gf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27178 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Answering the question about what it would need to give us a really > good surprise in OoP, somebody responded that it would be Trelawney > going over to the Dark Side, and somebody else argued that she's too > much of a detached, completely disinterested-in-daily-reality > character. In PoA, though, when she makes her true prediction, she > does so in a weird baritone voice- obviously a male voice and > certainly not her own. She seems to be in a trance and possessed by > somebody who speaks through her- Voldemort??? Good idea, but I don't think it could be Voldemort because he speaks with an unusually high pitched voice - certainly not a deep baritone. I could see Professor Trelawney "going bad" though. She seems to take an inordinate amount of pleasure in predicting death and mutilation for her students. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that she is positively sadistic about it. Catherine From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Oct 5 04:16:00 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 23:16:00 -0500 Subject: "Dam' Good Auror" References: <9pidc3+31ob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BBD3400.1090904@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27179 Hi everyone -- L. Inman wrote: > > I recently converted my friend to HP (after allowing myself to be > converted to "The West Wing"), and one of the comments she made to me > after finishing GoF was that Harry, Ron, and Hermione together "make > a damn good Auror. When they're apart, not so much" -- at least, not > yet. > While they are training Harry for the third task, Ron > comments that this training will do them all good "for when we're all > Aurors." What Ron doesn't realize is that together, they already > *are* an Auror, and they've accomplished feats that rival Mad-Eye > Moody's at his height. As someone who steadfastly refuses to join C.R.A.B., it shouldn't surprise anyone too much that I don't agree. First, I'd like to refer back to Catherine's excellent message entitled "Why Ron isn't a Seer" (#21458), which could also be titled "Why Ron Won't be an Auror" IMO. I think Ron is the "weakest link," and despite Ron's obvious angling, Crouch-as-Moody apparently agrees. As Catherine says in the above message, it always strikes me that Ron is just grasping at straws, and when he's right, it's through sheer luck. Yes, yes ... I know Ron contributes some skills & strengths to the Trio. But, on the whole, his contributions don't really stack up in my mind .. not as far as sleuthing & solving the puzzles anyway. For example, if you re-read the CoS scene after they've extracted the paper from Hermione's petrified grasp, it's really Harry IMO who puts the pieces of the puzzle together. He's reading & thinking out loud & all we hear from Ron is "And Mrs. Norris?" and "But how's a giant snake been getting around this place?" (Harry had to specifically point out Hermione's comment about pipes!). The Trio together are formidable .... but I'm not so sure that H&H couldn't do it together as a team. They are an *excellent* team in fact. Penny From lake4fam at earthlink.net Fri Oct 5 08:45:55 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 08:45:55 -0000 Subject: possibly a gay character???? Message-ID: <9pjs03+kasu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27180 Fine, but only if that character has some other vital reason to be in the story. So far, JKR has not explored any matters of sexuality with her characters. If there are homosexuals in the story yet, IMO, they would have been Gilderoy Lockhart (he of the quintuply award-winning smile) and Rita Skeeter (she of the arrogantly misquoting quill.) I think that this is rather like the old time stories in which the characters never had to attend to bodily functions. Actually, I am not convinced that we need a gay person to enter the Potterverse SOLELY for his/her orientation. What I guess I am trying to say is that that facet of personality is not the only one that makes a character interesting. Having a really interesting character with a real part to play is the most important thing. So what if the character is gay. The other way smacks way too much of political correctness, and would be contrived and out of place the world as written by JKR. dittany/custodienne - who does not wish any one to take her words as a personal insult From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Oct 5 11:51:27 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 11:51:27 -0000 Subject: HP thesis on the way to publication Message-ID: <9pk6rv+a6mt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27181 Watch out for Michele Fry paper "Heroes and Heroines: Myth and Gender Roles in the Harry Potter Books" in December issue of New Review of Children's Literature and Librarianship (actually of course it isn a Thesis in strict academic terms - that's PhD level work... but looks like sound professional work) Edis BBC Website says: Harry Potter inspires thesis An undergraduate, who wrote a thesis on the role of Hermione Granger in the Harry Potter novels as part of her degree course, is to have her work published in an academic journal. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1580000/1580933.stm text includes: >>> Michele Fry, 32, argues that Hermione - Harry's sidekick - is the true heroine of the books. "Most critics argue Hermione is an accessory but I would say she is the real power behind Harry Potter," said Ms Fry. <<< From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Oct 5 12:44:38 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:44:38 -0000 Subject: "Dam' Good Auror" In-Reply-To: <3BBD3400.1090904@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9pk9vm+eud3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27182 Penny wrote: > As Catherine says in the above > message (21458), it always strikes me that Ron is just grasping at straws, and > when he's right, it's through sheer luck. > > Yes, yes ... I know Ron contributes some skills & strengths to the Trio. > But, on the whole, his contributions don't really stack up in my mind > .. not as far as sleuthing & solving the puzzles anyway. Yes and no. Yes, Ron's contributions to sleuthing and puzzling are minimal (something that has always sat oddly with his chess playing ability). And I am among the sceptics on the Ron-is-a-seer front. What he does contribute are ordinary blokeishness, and friendship. The argument in GOF illustrates this well: Harry spends a lot of time with Hermione, but it is a bit library-ish for his tastes - he misses Ron. And when he gets Ron back, it gives him an enormous lift. It strikes me as deeply realistic that Harry's morale depends on the friendship of someone who makes no obvious intellectual or practical contribution. We sitting in our ivory towers can discuss the puzzles of the books endlessly, but in the final analysis they are not detective stories - they are 'life action' (technical term please) stories with a puzzle element. Hermione plays the role of puzzle- solver in relation to that important but not dominant element. Harry is the man of action, as we have discussed before - he has the intuition to know just what to do at the right time, as in setting Dobby free. Ron provides the connection to normality, to ordinary human reactions and the mindset of wizarding society. I am nervous to say such an easily shot-down thing, but it is so obvious to me throughout the entire canon that it is as a trio that they function effectively in the long term as an anit-dark force unit, that I can't think of any specific instances to support it - it's just woven in at every point. David, ending up adopting the opposite position to Penny yet again - it really isn't personal From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de Fri Oct 5 12:52:30 2001 From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:52:30 -0000 Subject: What would it take to really surprise you? In-Reply-To: <9pivru+b13@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pkaee+a5lc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27183 Kirsten wrote: > JKR has definitely gone out of her way to say in interviews that > Ginny will have a bigger part in OoP. However, I think it would have > to be Percy that would be questionable. Once in Diagon Alley, they > found him reading a book called "Prefects Who Gained Power" (remember > that Quirrell said in SS that Voldemort showed him that there was no > good and evil - only power and those too weak to seek it - sorry > don't have direct quote). Also, in GoF, Ron makes many references to > Percy's ambition. He was concerned that Percy would turn in Fred and > George if they were doing something illegal. Also, at the end of > GoF, Dumbledore is setting up some major rule breaking at the MoM and > we all know how much Percy likes rules :). I think enough stuff was > set up to at least put Percy's loyalty in question. I agree with you, Kirsten. I think Percy will mean trouble. I don?t think he would actively become a Deatheater and join Voldemort. But he does take rules *too* serious. IMHO, he is a kind of "flagweaver" who will follow a "strong man" promosing order. Crunch was such a person for him. Now that he is gone, there will be others to fill this place. How could Percy mean trouble? I could imagine him giving away information to the ministry and thus inadvertedly to Deatheater moles within the ministry that will hurt our friends. The Sirius? hiding place for example. Because of his actions, something very bad will happen, maybe one his siblings will be injured or die because of it. Somehow, I can picture Molly Weasly getting mad at her son for doing something he considered to be "the right thing". She doesn?t strike me as the kind of woman that would beat her children. (She often yells at George and Fred but they don?t seem to be afraid of physical punishment.) But somehow I have the feeling that we will see her slap Percy with Ron watching wide eyed because he has never witnessed his mother this way. Now, which Weasly could get hurt? If Percy is the cause for disaster it is not him. I don?t think it would be Ron. That leaves the twins, Ginny, Bill or Charlie. I am sorry, if this has already been discussed, but who could that be? I don?t think JKR would tear apart the twins. Bill and Charlie we don?t know so well. If either died, it would not be so hard for the reader - which might be an arguement pro or contra. And Ginny - would JKR steal their only girl? Well, she has crossed Riddle?s path once before - he has a reason to want revenge. Even with or without Percy?s action - there are so many Weasly?s - I don?t really think Voldemort will be defeated for good without one of them dying. Ethanol From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Oct 5 13:31:46 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 08:31:46 -0500 Subject: Hermione as Heroine -- Krum/Harry/Hermione Message-ID: <3BBDB642.90308@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27184 Hi -- A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk wrote: > Watch out for Michele Fry paper "Heroes and Heroines: Myth and Gender > Roles in the Harry Potter Books" in December issue of New Review of > Children's Literature and Librarianship > > Michele Fry, 32, argues that Hermione - Harry's sidekick - is the > true heroine of the books. > > "Most critics argue Hermione is an accessory but I would say she is > the real power behind Harry Potter," said Ms Fry. > <<< Oh, I absolutely can't wait for this! I tried to start a thread on this very subject some months back & got very few takers (see messages #3338, 3395, 3416). Being the huge Hermione fan that I am, it's no surprise that I agree completely with that basic statement. I'll be most interested to see what she says in support of her thesis. I won't be around much in the next couple of days, but would love to discuss this again if it might generate more interest this time around. I just cannot wait to see this article. :--) Amy Z wrote: Me: >>Or, maybe he pesters her at the Library & she was trying to get rid of him >>by talking Harry up. > Amy:> Gasp! Is that *Penny* writing? Did she just offer R/Hers an > elegant response to the "why does Hermione talk to Viktor about Harry" > evidence, that pillar of H/H reasoning? > > There you go. She talks about him because she is trying to send the signal > that she is not serious about him (Viktor). Harry makes a better subject > for going on and on about than Ron because Harry is Famous Harry Potter and > is ahead of VK in the tournament and is therefore likely to irk Viktor more. Nice try, Amy, but nothing doing. :--D Talking up Harry because he's already on her mind & serves the additional purpose of getting rid of Krum is very different than just using her friend the Famous HP as a tool to get rid of unwanted romantic attention. I may have left you a bit of a hole with the way I phrased that sentence admittedly, but my intent was always that it she was talking up Harry because of her interest. Picture the scenario: she's talked about Harry alot because she thinks about him alot ... she suddenly notices that Krum looks decidedly grumpy every time Harry's name comes up ... knowing she'd rather discourage further attentions from Krum, she makes a conscious effort to talk about Harry even more. :--) In any case, the alternative is that she, without any particular motive of getting rid of Krum, *talks about Harry all the time,* with the result that Krum is very jealous of Harry as a romantic rival. Where's Ronniekins in that scenario? If she really talks about him all the time "because they're friends" as Harry asserts (perhaps even defensively), then wouldn't she also talk about Ron all the time too? Nah, the girl's got feelings for Harry I tell you. :--) Penny From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 5 13:57:13 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:57:13 -0000 Subject: Ron's Virtue (was "Dam' Good Auror")/Gay Characters In-Reply-To: <3BBD3400.1090904@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9pke7p+gcbi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27185 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > As someone who steadfastly refuses to join C.R.A.B., it shouldn't > surprise anyone too much that I don't agree. First, I'd like to refer > back to Catherine's excellent message entitled "Why Ron isn't a Seer" > (#21458), which could also be titled "Why Ron Won't be an Auror" IMO. I > think Ron is the "weakest link," and despite Ron's obvious angling, > Crouch-as-Moody apparently agrees. As Catherine says in the above > message, it always strikes me that Ron is just grasping at straws, and > when he's right, it's through sheer luck. > > Yes, yes ... I know Ron contributes some skills & strengths to the Trio. > But, on the whole, his contributions don't really stack up in my mind > .. not as far as sleuthing & solving the puzzles anyway. As a late-comer to C.R.A.B., I feel I should defend Ron a little bit (and even take a stab at converting Penny). I initially had some of the same reservations about Ron's abilities and talents. Lately, though, I've decided that Ron isn't supposed to be especially bright or talented or a master mystery solver. He has a totally different purpose -- best friend. And he fills that role beautifully (except for the GoF fight with Harry). He doesn't like Harry just because Harry is famous, and he doesn't dislike Harry because Harry is famous. He accepts Harry for who he is, and Ron is usually able to cope with his own jealousy. When he has to make a sacrifice to help Harry, he does it. (Recall his "sacrifice" in helping Harry learn how to Stun?) In some ways, Ron's role it is almost like being a non-working spouse. The support the non-working spouse provides is critical to the success of the working spouse. It is just a lot less visible and to some extent, less valued by society. Ron's support comes in the form of helping Harry cope, like helping him learn about the wizard world and such. Most people don't display Ron's depth of character in their teens, and Ron's outstanding character deserves its own recognition. Now, about the issue of gay characters. Unless future books change substantially, I'd be surprised to see JKR start revealing the sexual orientation of her characters. As it stands, precious few characters are married or involved in any kind of romantic relationship. This makes sense to me because, as a teen, I was often completely clueless about the romantic relationships of my teachers and other adults in my life (and even a lot of my peers). Why should Harry's world be any different? If a character suddenly turned out to be gay, I'd certainly raise an eyebrow unless it could be demonstrated that the issue has some relevance to the plot, just as if characters suddenly starting procreating. In a way, the issue strikes me the same way as criticisms I've heard that the characters aren't sufficiently religious. It is OK with me that the world JKR has created is secular. It is OK that there aren't large numbers of the disabled. Or members of certain races. Along the same lines, it would also be OK if her world were entirely hetero. Cindy (who hopes she has communicated her thoughts in a respectful fashion) From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Oct 5 14:11:16 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 16:11:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Dam' Good Auror" In-Reply-To: <3BBD3400.1090904@swbell.net> Message-ID: <20011005141116.75975.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27186 Penny & Bryce ha scritto: Hi everyone -- No: HPFGUIDX 27187 Excellent Point! But also keep in mind that these are kids. They are developing their instincts, skills, etc. Through the books we can see them growing and maturing, but it is a process: sometimes slow, sometimes forced to be fast. Moreover, in stressful situations, who doesn't occasionally make bone head mistakes. Almost everyday I forget my car keys, or my purse, or my glasses that I need to drive. This should be everyday things to me, like making fire out of nothing would be to a wizard, and yet when I am racing to get to the university I tend to forget these necessities. Let's just throw in my two best friends getting eaten alive, the fact that I am only 11/12 and it is a wonder that she could perform the spell. Well, that's my two cents worth. Leslie -----Original Message----- From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch [mailto:rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 9:53 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione Panicking (was Cat, Rat and Dog) Ron's line, "Have you gone mad? Are you a witch or aren't you?" is one of my favorites in the whole series. Actually it's very simple to explain why Hermione forgot she didn't need wood to make a fire - or Harry's forgetting to use a summoning spell to get his golden egg back. Both have been raised as Muggles, which means both have Muggle rather than Wizardly instincts. Under pressure H&H tend to forget their magical powers because they are frankly not accustomed to having them. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From warhound at accessus.net Fri Oct 5 16:30:07 2001 From: warhound at accessus.net (WarMaster) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:30:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll, OoP Prediction debate, OT-history Message-ID: <005401c14dba$ff9cb380$1992cecf@warhound> No: HPFGUIDX 27188 Hi all! Usually I just lurk (especially now that I have over 700 messages pending :P) but I did take time out to answer the polls regarding ethnicity, nationality, etc. and was only disconcerted to find out that my age group was so near the bottom of the list. I honestly don't feel that old! Also, I wanted to express the dismay that the Predictions for OoP was taken to the OT-Chatter. I was enjoying it very much (as a few others have expressed) and even shared it with my daughter who is trying very hard to memorize all four Harry Potter books by listening to them every night at bedtime. I printed the original questions and then printed other's responses for her to see what other people say. However, thanks to the past history lesson that one member put up (I'm sorry I can't remember your name, but the history was great) I understand the need for OT-Chatter. Please keep up the good work everyone so we can all get our dose (in whatever way we choose) of Potter-mania! Beverly (who now has to review the archives to find out what the heck clotted cream and spotted dick are) From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Oct 5 15:35:20 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 15:35:20 -0000 Subject: "Dam' Good Auror" * What Would Surprise Me * Trelawney In-Reply-To: <3BBD3400.1090904@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9pkjvo+qdli@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27189 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: I think Ron is the "weakest link," and despite Ron's obvious angling, > Crouch-as-Moody apparently agrees. As Catherine says in the above > message, it always strikes me that Ron is just grasping at straws, and when he's right, it's through sheer luck.> Hey Penny - I agree with you that Ron is the "weakest link", but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Not all three of the Trio can be super crime-solving sleuths. This has been discussed many times, but Ron serves a purpose quite well throughout the series. We need to know about wizarding prejudices, wizarding politics and wizarding events; Ron supplies us with that information. I also think that Ron's lack of strength will play an increasingly important part in the plot of the upcoming books. The fact that he cannot fight the Imperius Curse is a red flag if I ever saw one. I also cannot resist adding that Ron is not now and will NEVER be a Seer. > The Trio together are formidable .... but I'm not so sure that H&H > couldn't do it together as a team. They are an *excellent* team in > fact. *Sigh* Yes, Penny - they make a great *team*, not couple. :-) Surprises - Since we are on a subject related to Hermione, I would be flabbergasted if she died. In fact, considering how many more men there are in the Potterverse, I'd be shocked if any female characters were killed (even Ginny). Trelawney - I cannot see her going over to the Dark Side or to any side, for that matter. Trelawney is way too self-involved to get involved with anyone else. She is stuck up there in her tower classroom with her pouf pillows and her fake predictions, just loving it. She has a sweet deal - what could she get from Dark Wizards that she hasn't already done for herself? --jenny from ravenclaw, who'd rather take Snape's class twice than Trelawney's at all ******************************* From bbennett at joymail.com Fri Oct 5 16:34:28 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:34:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione as Heroine -- Krum/Harry/Hermione In-Reply-To: <3BBDB642.90308@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9pknek+qepj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27190 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: In any case, the alternative is that she, without any particular motive of getting rid of Krum, *talks about Harry all the time,* with the result that Krum is very jealous of Harry as a romantic rival. Where's Ronniekins in that scenario? If she really talks about him all the time "because they're friends" as Harry asserts (perhaps even defensively), then wouldn't she also talk about Ron all the time too? Nah, the girl's got feelings for Harry I tell you. :--) I mentioned this the last time this topic came up - why *would* Hermione talk about Ron? Harry is the one she and Viktor have in common, and when talking with someone you don't know well, a polite conversationalist looks for topics in common to discuss (in particular, I don't think you discuss someone you may have just realized you're sweet on with someone you barely know). I don't question that Harry is on Hermione's mind (he is; she's helping with the Tournament), and if she and Viktor were intimate friends and she continued to speak only of Harry, then I'd see this as evidence of a crush. But as it is, I only see proof that Hermione is a well- mannered girl determined to be friendly with Viktor; that she hasn't picked up on Viktor's jealously can't be held against her. My two knuts :*) B From mindyatime at juno.com Fri Oct 5 16:36:57 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:36:57 -0400 Subject: What kind of life would Barty Jr. have? Message-ID: <20011005.130043.-371231.28.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27191 I think that Barty Sr. did Barty Jr. a major disservice by releasing him from prison. For the rest of Jr.'s life, he'd have to be in hiding in his dad's house under a cloak. What kind of life is that? It's almost as bad as Azkaban. It's torture. It's like being in solitary confinement for life. He could never go out in public, and he'd never live a normal life - no companionship, no marriage, no life. Or was Sr. planning to smuggle him out and ship him off overseas where he could begin life anew incognito? He'd rather have his beloved wife die in Azkaban and have the son he despised constantly under guard, pretending he didn't exist? What a difficult life for Barty Sr. as well... I don't think it paid, honestly. If I'd be Barty Jr. I don't think I'd want to live out the rest of my life hidden under a cloak in my father's house... I understand Azkaban is far worse, but is this a life? ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 17:10:34 2001 From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 17:10:34 -0000 Subject: The First to Rise is the First To Die... Message-ID: <9pkpia+35em@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27192 My humble apologizes if this has been discussed before. Sometimes I find it so hard to keep track (or keep up :D ) I'm not sure if I heard correctly or if it was just someone's theory, but I think Rowling has hinted that one of Prof. Trelawney's predictions is supposed to come true. Re-reading "Prisoner of Azkaban" today, I noticed one of her predictions. Knowing how Rowling loves to be subtle and surprise us with the little things, I couldn't help wondering about one of Trelawney's predctions: "I dare now, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die." She says this during the Christmas Day feast, which only include thirteen people. The first to rise is Harry and Ron (neither is sure who was the first to do so). Hmmm....could this be a clue? -Erin J. From linman6868 at aol.com Fri Oct 5 17:58:51 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 17:58:51 -0000 Subject: "Dam' Good Auror" In-Reply-To: <3BBD3400.1090904@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9pkscr+i6o0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27193 Penny wrote: > As someone who steadfastly refuses to join C.R.A.B., it shouldn't > surprise anyone too much that I don't agree. First, I'd like to refer > back to Catherine's excellent message entitled "Why Ron isn't a Seer" > (#21458), which could also be titled "Why Ron Won't be an Auror" IMO. I > think Ron is the "weakest link," and despite Ron's obvious angling, > Crouch-as-Moody apparently agrees. As Catherine says in the above > message, it always strikes me that Ron is just grasping at straws, and > when he's right, it's through sheer luck. > > Yes, yes ... I know Ron contributes some skills & strengths to the Trio. > But, on the whole, his contributions don't really stack up in my mind > .. not as far as sleuthing & solving the puzzles anyway. Well! I certainly didn't mean to make my post a plug for C.R.A.B., nor yet to pop up like a battered cardboard duck in the anti-Ron carny game, but ah well, them's the breaks. You might be surprised to learn that I actually do agree with much of what you say. After all, in summarizing the plots, I didn't take the time to clarify what specifically Ron contributed to, say, CoS. I *certainly* don't believe Ron is a seer -- there's no evidence whatsoever for that. I also agree that Ron's attempts at sleuthing are more like a shotgun than a rifle. And, as I said, Ron by himself will probably not be an Auror -- though, as I also said, I don't think it's entirely likely that any of them will choose it for their career. What I said, however, was that Ron's contributions often consist of what I called "impulsive energy". What I meant was a rather amorphous set of characteristics that Ron offers the Trio on a daily basis. Harry may be an excellent sleuth; but he is the most mulish of the Trio and will stop trying to leave well alone only when the stakes are raised significantly. Hermione has the detective smarts that will achieve what intuition (Harry) can't. But neither Harry nor Hermione has the wisecracking, headlong enthusiasm that Ron does. No one has ever heard me say that Ron's energy is focused. It isn't. If he tried focusing even a little bit, I think this would boost the Trio even more. Currently, he's attempting to focus on routing his inner demons, so "grasping at straws" comes naturally at this point. As for defending Ron's value any further, John Wayne has holstered his sixes. I've come to the conclusion that Ron's value is either self-evident to a reader, or it isn't. But anyway, why *should* we hate people who have weaknesses? Lisa, pulling down all the shades at C.R.A.B. Headquarters, so she can make herself a cup of chamomile tea and perhaps indulge in a cry - - the weather here's good for such activities. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Oct 5 18:08:27 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:08:27 -0000 Subject: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <9pja02+tb0e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pksur+df6o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27194 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > Long Island is > not part of NYC. It is an island upon which Brooklyn, Queens (2 of > the boroughs of NYC) are located, as are Nassau and Suffolk counties. > It might as well be;-). If a school exists in the tri-state area, I think that the school should be in Westport, Connecticut. Why Westport? Because it's within commuting distance to NYC. But more importantly that's the city where 1164 Morning Glory Circle is located. What's so special about 1164 Morning Glory Circle, you say? That's the address of the very famous American witch, Samantha Stephens, her Muggle husband Darrin, and their children, Tabitha and Adam. For the Mid-Western School, I pick Athens, Ohio. Athens is a hot-bed of paranormal activity, everything from Indian burial grounds, Civil War ghosts, cults and the really weird locations of the cemeteries. And it's not too well-known either. http://www.athenslegends.org/cemetaries.html Milz(who lived in the tri-state area and spent every Fourth of July as a child with my great-aunt in Northport) From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Oct 5 19:32:36 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 19:32:36 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9phqo4+sqp6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pl1sk+hekd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27195 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > I agree that Elfreth's Alley would make an excellent portal for the > Philadelphia wizarding "shopping district," but there is probably > an equivalent of Diagon Alley in most cities in the US. I beg to differ. If Diagon Alley serves the entire British Isles (or even just the Island of England) and Hogsmeade is the only all wizarding village in the U.K., then the liklihood of a wizarding district in "most cities in the U. S." is very small. It is far more likely that U.S. wizards make up a small percentage of the total U.S. population. In fact it is probable that U.S. Wizards comprise a smaller percentage of the U.S. population than wizards comprise of the European nations. If wizarding is passed down both as a science/art and as a genetic disposition, it is easy to predict that the U.S., as a realtively new nation lacking a wizarding tradition and being notoriously hostile to the emergence of witchcraft, would have seen a precipitious decrease in the wizarding passed on from generation to generation. Consider that American Indian shaman were generally only one per tribe atmost, and they were mostly killed off along with the rest of aboriginal culture. Or how about the Salem withch trials, which certainly drove magicking further underground, regardless of whether the burnings at the stake tickled, or whether gillyweed and bubble head charms were readily available to witches subjected to ritual drowning. Further, and despite what the supremacists delude themselves into believing, the American racial stew is so thouroughly mixed, the bloodlines for a trait like wizard-ability must be awfully muddied. Black, White, Indian, Irish, Mexican, etc., etc. etc. How is any gene supposed to pass from generation to generation in such an intermingled environment? This goes part and parcel with my final point. Wizarding is conrary to the American ideal. In wizarding, all men are not created equal. There are greater and lesser talents, and some have no talent at all. There is not even the illusion of equality, as old line families denigrate the lineage of mudbloods who struggle with their muggle relatives over the meaning of this blessing/curse. Americans, having little sense of or use for tradition, prefer technology, science, motor cars and such. They have no use for things that can not be taken apart. It is exactly why we continue to parse thiese books. The British, on the other hand, have magic as a part of their national history. Arthur would not have been king but for a wizard named Merlin and an enchanted sword and stone. The Druids were up to something at Stonehenge, the evidence of which still stands. The very oldness of the land, the mysterious topography, its cold climate and ageless traditions all support the propagation of the magical arts in ways that the shiny new America can never hope to compete. Sorry U.S. citizens, but I doubt there is more than one Diagon Alley on the entire continent of North America. 4FR From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 20:02:46 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 20:02:46 -0000 Subject: Trelawney going bad? In-Reply-To: <9pjoid+f7gf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pl3l6+5q36@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27196 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > Answering the question about what it would need to give us a > > really good surprise in OoP, somebody responded that it would be > > Trelawney going over to the Dark Side, and somebody else argued > > that she's too much of a detached, completely disinterested-in- > > daily-reality character. [snip] --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > I could see Professor Trelawney "going bad" though. She seems to > take an inordinate amount of pleasure in predicting death and > mutilation for her students. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that > she is positively sadistic about it. This wouldn't be a surprise for me unless it did in fact happen in OotP, which IMO would be far too soon. I think of Trelawney as a kind of seven-year-Quirrell, which is to say, it will probably take almost seven years for it to come out that her benign facade is a red herring. She SEEMS to be both harmless (although annoying) and incompetent, but although Dumbledore says she only made one other correct prediction, I strongly suspect that that's the only one he knows about. She probably reserves her "correct" predictions for the Dark Wizards, telling nonsense to people like Dumbledore and McGonagall, who then feel justified in thinking she's dotty. We'll probably see more signs of her true colors in book 5 (if only we knew what they meant), but all will not be revealed yet... If JKR went back on something she has said about the series in general, such as Draco Malfoy never being on Harry's side, now THAT would shock me. --Barb From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 20:19:25 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 20:19:25 -0000 Subject: "Dam' Good Auror" In-Reply-To: <9pk9vm+eud3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pl4kd+4e45@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27197 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > Penny wrote: > > As Catherine says in the above > > message (21458), it always strikes me that Ron is just grasping > > at straws, and when he's right, it's through sheer luck. > > > > Yes, yes ... I know Ron contributes some skills & strengths to > > the Trio. But, on the whole, his contributions don't really stack > > up in my mind ... not as far as sleuthing & solving the puzzles > > anyway. > > Yes and no. Yes, Ron's contributions to sleuthing and puzzling are > minimal (something that has always sat oddly with his chess playing > ability). And I am among the sceptics on the Ron-is-a-seer front. > > What he does contribute are ordinary blokeishness, and friendship. > [snip] Ron provides the connection to normality, to ordinary > human reactions and the mindset of wizarding society. As someone noted in another post, Ron had to remind Hermione that she is a witch! Ron's deep connection to the wizarding world is probably his most important contribution to the trio other than his sheer physical bravery and his fierce loyalty. There is never a moment when he is not acutely aware of being a wizard and when all of the ins and outs of wizarding society isn't at his fingertips. Harry and Hermione have no clue as to how giants are regarded in wizarding society; they might have gone blabbing about Hagrid's heritage all over Hogwarts even before Rita's article hit the fan if Ron hadn't told them about this. Even with all she's read, Hermione couldn't recognize the insult "Mudblood" for what it was when it was directed at her. Ron's their inside man, the one who knows the way other wizards and witches think, which Hermione and Harry still don't completely grasp. One could argue that any other student born in wizarding society could fill his role just as well, but Neville isn't as competent as Ron, and Seamus (the only other non-Muggle-born in Harry's house and year) just doesn't seem to have Ron's je-ne-sais- quois. Plus, Ron's family dynamics bring a lot of valuable elements to the story. Ron is quite simply indispensible! --Barb From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com Fri Oct 5 20:25:56 2001 From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:25:56 -0400 Subject: "Dam' Good Auror" Message-ID: <5F0864D0.3EAD367A.52A758FC@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27198 Barb said: but Neville isn't as competent as Ron, and Seamus (the only other non-Muggle-born in Harry's house and year) just doesn't seem to have Ron's je-ne-sais- quois. Plus, Ron's family dynamics bring a lot of valuable elements to the story. Ron is quite simply indispensible!>> I don't have my books with me, but I thought Seamus said his mom was a witch. Didn't he say something to the affect that his dad din't know until after they were married?....or am I mixing up things again? :) ***Dixie Malfoy*** From j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu Fri Oct 5 20:30:42 2001 From: j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu (j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 20:30:42 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9pl1sk+hekd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pl59i+fegb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27199 > I beg to differ. If Diagon Alley serves the entire British Isles (or > even just the Island of England) and Hogsmeade is the only all > wizarding village in the U.K., then the liklihood of a wizarding > district in "most cities in the U. S." is very small. It is far more > likely that U.S. wizards make up a small percentage of the total U.S. > population. > > In fact it is probable that U.S. Wizards comprise a smaller > percentage of the U.S. population than wizards comprise of the > European nations. If wizarding is passed down both as a science/art > and as a genetic disposition, it is easy to predict that the U.S., as > a realtively new nation lacking a wizarding tradition and being > notoriously hostile to the emergence of witchcraft, would have seen a > precipitious decrease in the wizarding passed on from generation to > generation. > > > This goes part and parcel with my final point. Wizarding is conrary > to the American ideal. In wizarding, all men are not created equal. > There are greater and lesser talents, and some have no talent at > all. There is not even the illusion of equality, as old line > families denigrate the lineage of mudbloods who struggle with their > muggle relatives over the meaning of this blessing/curse. Americans, > having little sense of or use for tradition, prefer technology, > science, motor cars and such. They have no use for things that can > not be taken apart. It is exactly why we continue to parse thiese > books. > > The British, on the other hand, have magic as a part of their > national history. Arthur would not have been king but for a wizard > named Merlin and an enchanted sword and stone. The Druids were up to > something at Stonehenge, the evidence of which still stands. The > very oldness of the land, the mysterious topography, its cold climate > and ageless traditions all support the propagation of the magical > arts in ways that the shiny new America can never hope to compete. > > Sorry U.S. citizens, but I doubt there is more than one Diagon Alley > on the entire continent of North America. > > 4FR As an American who has visited Europe, I see your point and am forced, albeit sadly, to agree. Unfortunately, I can just see the portal to the American version of Diagon Alley being a Starbucks. Frapuchinos for the witch and wizard on the go. Corporate bookseller's replacing locally owned stores and selling dolls of Harry Potter, Hagrid, and Dumbledore with matching playsets (oh wait..mmm) Besides you would have to take the interstate just to get there and eat at Cracker Barrels along the way. The picture of American witches and wizards in my mind's eye is not at all pleasant. I see J.K. Rowling's point about not including American characters in her books. J. From bak42 at netzero.net Fri Oct 5 20:29:04 2001 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:29:04 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite HP "Speech" In-Reply-To: <9pidan+mqag@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c14ddc$6463f1e0$217b9e40@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 27200 I would have to say that my favorite speech is in PS/SS and it's Dumbledore's few words at the start of term banquet. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! ---------------------------------------------------------- Brandon 73% Obsessed with Harry Potter Earth: Mostly harmless --The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy "You know," said Ron, whose hair was on end because of all the times he had run his fingers through it in frustration, "I think it's back to the old Divination standby." "What -- make it up?" --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire -----Original Message----- From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com [mailto:justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 12:29 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favorite HP "Speech" The HP series has a lot of good speeches in it. I was reading PS/SS, and I have decided that this is my favorite HP speech: "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses . . . . I can teach you to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." Snape, PS/SS, Ch. 8. Does anyone else have a favorite? Laura - reserving the right to change her mind and decide a different speech is really her favorite Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 20:37:33 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 20:37:33 -0000 Subject: Seamus the Half-Blood (was "Dam' Good Auror") In-Reply-To: <5F0864D0.3EAD367A.52A758FC@cs.com> Message-ID: <9pl5md+nsvh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27201 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., UcfRentLuvr at c... wrote: > Barb said: > but Neville isn't as competent as Ron, and Seamus (the only other non-Muggle-born in Harry's house and year) just doesn't seem to have Ron's je-ne-sais-quois. > I don't have my books with me, but I thought Seamus said his mom was a witch. Didn't he say something to the affect that his dad din't know until after they were married?....or am I mixing up things again? :) That's why I said "non-Muggle-born" instead of pure-blood. Seamus is half-blood, and probably grew up knowing he was a wizard, even though his dad is a Muggle. Since we don't know whether the Finnigan family has been firmly entrenched in the wizarding world with his dad as something of an outsider, or whether they live mostly in Muggle society with his mom hiding her magic from the neighbors a la Bewitched (second Bewitched mention today, isn't that?) I don't think we can consider Seamus to be a candidate for conduit-to-the-wizarding world in the same way that Ron is. He did attend the Quidditch World Cup and brought Dean Thomas along, but that doesn't really tell us much. --Barb From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 5 20:58:46 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 21:58:46 +0100 Subject: Another Flint? References: <9pl5md+nsvh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <004301c14de0$89714740$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27202 I think I have found a Flint! The counter to the Stunning Curse 'Stupefy', is the word 'Enervate' to bring the victim back round. However, it's been bothering me for a while, and I've finally got round to getting out a dictionary. Sure enough, the English word 'enervated' which this must be related to, means to deprive of vigour and vitality. Surely if you used this sort of word, it should create an even deeper Stun, rather than waking them up? Wouldn't 'Energate' for 'energise' have been a better counter spell? Can I be a L.O.O.N now? Lucy :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 21:04:06 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:04:06 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9pl59i+fegb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pl786+jdk0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27203 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., j.franklin at m... wrote: > > I beg to differ. If Diagon Alley serves the entire British Isles > (or even just the Island of England) and Hogsmeade is the only all > > wizarding village in the U.K., then the liklihood of a wizarding > > district in "most cities in the U. S." is very small. It is far > > more likely that U.S. wizards make up a small percentage of the > > total U.S. population. > > > > In fact it is probable that U.S. Wizards comprise a smaller > > percentage of the U.S. population than wizards comprise of the > > European nations. If wizarding is passed down both as a > > science/art and as a genetic disposition, it is easy to predict > > that the U.S., as a realtively new nation lacking a wizarding > > tradition and being notoriously hostile to the emergence of > > witchcraft, would have seen a precipitious decrease in the > > wizarding passed on from generation to generation. I must strongly disagree. One must merely consider the fact that outcasts from countries all around the world have gravitated to the U.S. in the "pursuit of happiness" and the conclusion that must be drawn is that the U.S. would be likely to have a wizarding population comparable to if not greater than most European nations, which tend to be very homogeneous still and where people who are "different" stand out like sore thumbs. In fact, I suspect that the seemingly small number of British Isles wizards might be directly attributable to the siphoning-off of the wizarding population to the U.S. in the late nineteenth century. North America has more opportunities for far-flung, well-hidden wizard enclaves that might remain unknown to Muggle society. This would appeal greatly to such a secretive group looking to make a fresh start, just like the large variety of religious and ethnic groups who found shelter on these shores. Plus, they would be able to connect with wizarding Native Americans... > > This goes part and parcel with my final point. Wizarding is > > contrary to the American ideal. In wizarding, all men are not > > created equal. There are greater and lesser talents, and some > > have no talent at all. This does not explain how wizarding is "contrary to the American ideal." In truth, all humans are NOT created equal. But the point of our system of government is that people are supposed to be TREATED equally, regardless of any demographic baggage or innate ability (or lack thereof). In practice, of course, this doesn't always happen (or, if you're being very cynical, you could say this seldom happens). Having magical ability does not make you incapable of participating or wishing to participate in a democracy, and as JKR illustrates, being a wizard doesn't automatically make you ANYTHING, egalitarian OR elitist, it just makes you MAGICAL. > > The British, on the other hand, have magic as a part of their > > national history. Arthur would not have been king but for a > > wizard named Merlin and an enchanted sword and stone. The Druids > > were up to something at Stonehenge, the evidence of which still > > stands. There are a variety of very old folk legends from North America that illustrate the yearning toward magic of people who live here. The fact that we have elected leaders rather than "anointed ones" does not preclude that yearning. There are some very ancient archeological findings on this continent that are right up there with Stonehenge, which was, after all, just a very large and unwieldy calendar and observatory (and probably one of the oldest extant public works projects, in addition to the pyramids...). --Barb From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 5 21:03:16 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 22:03:16 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Dam' Good Auror" References: <5F0864D0.3EAD367A.52A758FC@cs.com> Message-ID: <004901c14de1$28d03a80$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27204 I don't know about you lot, but for me the thing about Ron is not so much that he's indispensable to the story, which he is, but that if we're assuming he's a real person (which of course they all are, aren't they?!) he always gets the short straw and doesn't really shine. I've said before in a posting, I would love to see him really come into his own - become Quidditch Captain like he wanted in the first book, or suddenly come up with the vital clue to something the three of them are doing. Then Hermione could fall in love with him, Harry finally notice Ginny, and hey presto - a happy double dating group! Well, I can dream! Lucy, who's off for a week's holiday and is not sure whether she's looking forward to the 400 emails from the group that will be there when she returns or not!! :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 9:25 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Dam' Good Auror" Barb said: but Neville isn't as competent as Ron, and Seamus (the only other non-Muggle-born in Harry's house and year) just doesn't seem to have Ron's je-ne-sais- quois. Plus, Ron's family dynamics bring a lot of valuable elements to the story. Ron is quite simply indispensible!>> I don't have my books with me, but I thought Seamus said his mom was a witch. Didn't he say something to the affect that his dad din't know until after they were married?....or am I mixing up things again? :) ***Dixie Malfoy*** Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Oct 5 21:39:08 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:39:08 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9pl1sk+hekd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pl99s+608a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27205 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > > I agree that Elfreth's Alley would make an excellent portal for the > > Philadelphia wizarding "shopping district," but there is probably > > an equivalent of Diagon Alley in most cities in the US. > > I beg to differ. If Diagon Alley serves the entire British Isles (or > even just the Island of England) and Hogsmeade is the only all > wizarding village in the U.K., then the liklihood of a wizarding > district in "most cities in the U. S." is very small. It is far more > likely that U.S. wizards make up a small percentage of the total U.S. > population. > This I do agree with you to a point. Due to the geographic size of the US, the wizarding population is most likely spread out around the country, but concentrated around major cities. I'm more inclined to think that most major cities have port-keys that transport witches and wizards to the Magic Mall of America (wherever that might be located, probably in Minnesota next to the Mall of America). > In fact it is probable that U.S. Wizards comprise a smaller > percentage of the U.S. population than wizards comprise of the > European nations. If wizarding is passed down both as a science/art > and as a genetic disposition, it is easy to predict that the U.S., as > a realtively new nation lacking a wizarding tradition and being > notoriously hostile to the emergence of witchcraft, would have seen a > precipitious decrease in the wizarding passed on from generation to > generation. > > Consider that American Indian shaman were generally only one per > tribe atmost, and they were mostly killed off along with the rest of > aboriginal culture. Or how about the Salem withch trials, which > certainly drove magicking further underground, regardless of whether > the burnings at the stake tickled, or whether gillyweed and bubble > head charms were readily available to witches subjected to ritual > drowning. > Again, most ethnic groups can be used as a relatively good example. Most likely, there are Irish-American, German-American, Spanish- American, Tahitian-American, etc. witches and wizards who emigrated to the US and keep some of their ethnic magical traditions and have incorporated them into the American tradition. Just like the 4th generation Italian-American family who serves pasta fagioli at Thanksgiving along with the turkey and other 'traditional' foods. Ethnic traditions are usually orally hand down from one generation to the next. Even in some of the remaining Native American cultures, the shaman still exists. > Further, and despite what the supremacists delude themselves into > believing, the American racial stew is so thouroughly mixed, the > bloodlines for a trait like wizard-ability must be awfully muddied. > Black, White, Indian, Irish, Mexican, etc., etc. etc. How is any > gene supposed to pass from generation to generation in such an > intermingled environment? > I can see your point, if you're assuming ethnic groups, like the Blacks, Indians, Irish, Mexican, et al. do not have the wizard gene, so intermarriage with any of these groups will dillute the magic gene pool. But if these groups DO have the wizard gene then American magical community, then I can't really see how intermarriage will adversely affect the magic gene pool. In fact the American magical community might be even more powerful than the non-mixed magicals due to something called 'polymorphism' or 'polygenic factors', which might potentiate the latent ability of the gene. Generally, the dominant genes are lethal to a species. It's the recessive genes that temper these lethal dominant ones. > This goes part and parcel with my final point. Wizarding is conrary > to the American ideal. In wizarding, all men are not created equal. > There are greater and lesser talents, and some have no talent at > all. There is not even the illusion of equality, as old line > families denigrate the lineage of mudbloods who struggle with their > muggle relatives over the meaning of this blessing/curse. I'm not a lawyer, but from what I understand, the 'created equal' bit refers to equality under the law/government; I don't think it means the pan-equality of every talent or aptitude. >Americans, > having little sense of or use for tradition, prefer technology, > science, motor cars and such. They have no use for things that can > not be taken apart. It is exactly why we continue to parse thiese > books. > I think you're stereotyping a little too much here. > The British, on the other hand, have magic as a part of their > national history. Arthur would not have been king but for a wizard > named Merlin and an enchanted sword and stone. The Druids were up to > something at Stonehenge, the evidence of which still stands. The > very oldness of the land, the mysterious topography, its cold climate > and ageless traditions all support the propagation of the magical > arts in ways that the shiny new America can never hope to compete. > Again, if America were a closed society devoid of immigration past and present, then I can see your point, but America is a nation of immigrants with a constant cultural influx of ideas and traditions. The American culture incorporates "old-world" traditions. From valjean131 at aol.com Fri Oct 5 21:54:47 2001 From: valjean131 at aol.com (Monique) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:54:47 -0000 Subject: Ron's Virtue (was "Dam' Good Auror")/Gay Characters In-Reply-To: <9pke7p+gcbi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pla77+jsip@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27206 > I initially had some of > the same reservations about Ron's abilities and talents. Lately, > though, I've decided that Ron isn't supposed to be especially >bright > or talented or a master mystery solver. He has a totally different > purpose -- best friend. > > And he fills that role beautifully (except for the GoF fight with > Harry). He doesn't like Harry just because Harry is famous, and he > doesn't dislike Harry because Harry is famous. He accepts Harry for > who he is, and Ron is usually able to cope with his own jealousy. > When he has to make a sacrifice to help Harry, he does it. Hi there... I hope ya'll don't me jumping into the fray here, but I've been pondering Ron's purpose lately. And while everything you say is true, what purpose does he serve that say... Hermione couldn't? I think she could fill all the requirements, save one... she's not a boy... and I don't think we can, even in the non-sexual HP world, underestimate the power of a male best friend for Harry. Let me clarify, I think Ron is nec. He is, as you say, the best friend. Many heroes have the "smart" friend and the "loyal" friend. See Xander and Willow, etc... So, the HP setup fits the mold perfectly. His function, while not glamorous, is an important function. I just personally find him a little boring. Although, I *love* all the other Weasleys. Just my ramblies... -Q From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 5 21:56:32 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:56:32 -0000 Subject: Yet Another Flint? -- Fudge and the Dementors Message-ID: <9plaag+npe1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27208 In PoA, the Dementors try to give Harry the kiss and then retreat. When this happens, Snape, Black, Hermione, and Ron all are unconscious, and Lupin and Pettigrew have run off. Harry is the only wizard who has first-hand knowledge of the events. Nevertheless, Fudge makes two remarks concerning the behavior of the dementors. First in "Herione's Secret": "What amazes me most is the behavior of the dementors . . . you've really no idea what made them retreat, Snape?" "No, Minister . . . . by the time I had come 'round they were heading back to their positions at the entrances." Then in "Owl Post Again": "And the dementors?" said Dumbledore. "They'll be removed from the school, I trust?" "Oh yes, they'll have to go," said Fudge, running his fingers distractedly through his hair. "Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy . . . . Completely out of control . . . no, I'll have them packed off back to Azkaban tonight . . . . Perhaps we should think about dragons at the school entrance . . . " How does Fudge learn that something drove the dementors off at all, or that they tried to Kiss Harry? Aren't the only people who could have told Fudge about this the dementors themselves? Does this mean Fudge may have some relationship with the dementors that we don't fully understand? Or is this just a Flint? Cindy (wondering who makes the call about what is or is not a real Flint) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 5 22:02:50 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 22:02:50 -0000 Subject: Ron's Virtue (was "Dam' Good Auror") In-Reply-To: <9pla77+jsip@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plama+1qff@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27209 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monique" wrote: > Hi there... I hope ya'll don't me jumping into the fray here, but > I've been pondering Ron's purpose lately. > > And while everything you say is true, what purpose does he serve that > say... Hermione couldn't? I think it would be difficult to write a character to fill Ron's and Hermione's shoes. Ron is easy-going (will make up answers on tests and for homework); Hermione is by the book. Ron likes to tease; Hermione frequently ignores teasing. Ron is not ambitious; Hermione is ambitious. Ron buys into stereotypes somewhat; Hermione questions them. If HP were Star Trek, Hermione would be Spock and Ron would be McCoy. I think if you tried to roll Ron and Hermione into one character, you'd get a characterization salad. Cindy From valjean131 at aol.com Fri Oct 5 22:11:29 2001 From: valjean131 at aol.com (Monique) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 22:11:29 -0000 Subject: Ron's Virtue (was "Dam' Good Auror") In-Reply-To: <9plama+1qff@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plb6h+62a4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27210 > If HP were Star Trek, Hermione would be Spock and Ron would be > McCoy. I think if you tried to roll Ron and Hermione into one > character, you'd get a characterization salad. > Hi there.. Yes, very true. But I wasn't talking about mushing the characteristics together.. that would be... messy. ;-) I meant purpose in the grand scheme of things. But using your Spock and McCoy analogy... McCoy brought skills to the table that Spock did not possess. I guess I was supposing that Ron does not bring "skills" to the table that Hermione doesn't already have. Certainly, there is more to character than skill alone, but that's what I was referring to. -Q From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Oct 5 22:29:52 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 22:29:52 -0000 Subject: Sexuality in HP (was: Ron's Virtue) In-Reply-To: <9pla77+jsip@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plc90+33f8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27211 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monique" wrote: > > And while everything you say is true, what purpose does he serve that say... Hermione couldn't? I think she could fill all the > requirements, save one... she's not a boy... and I don't think we > can, even in the non-sexual HP world> AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *Calms down* Okay, I am sorry about the scream. It's just that the Potterverse is chock full of sexual things. This has been a thread before, so I am not going to get into details, but there are many examples of sexuality, from Lee Jordan's comments about the pretty girls on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, to the boys' reactions to the Veelas, to the security trolls comparing the size of their... clubs (someone else pointed that out because I had completely forgotten) to Moaning Myrtle spying on Harry in the Prefects' bathroom to Harry's crush on Cho. It is also quite obvious to me that sex is going to become a bigger issue in upcoming books. JKR has done a great job so far of portraying her characters as very real; surely we'll see Harry and his friends deal with dating. I hope we do, anyway. --jenny from ravenclaw, who actually enjoys the sexual tension between Hermione and Ron and feels that it practically leaps out of the books at her *********************************************** From valjean131 at aol.com Fri Oct 5 22:34:50 2001 From: valjean131 at aol.com (Monique) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 22:34:50 -0000 Subject: Sexuality in HP (was: Ron's Virtue) In-Reply-To: <9plc90+33f8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plcia+fg6b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27212 > > AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *Calms down* Okay, I am sorry about the > scream. It's just that the Potterverse is chock full of sexual > things. LOL... I wouldn't say chock full ;-) But I see what you mean. I didn't mean to imply asexual... just well... it's not been an overt issue... unless you count the veela. ;-) Hmmmm.... > Hermione and Ron and feels that it practically leaps out of the >books at her *********************************************** I love HP... cause I see zippo of that... but we can all see what we want to see... that's part of the magic. -Q From frantyck at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 23:40:57 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 23:40:57 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9pl1sk+hekd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plge9+ec0h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27213 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: Americans, > having little sense of or use for tradition, prefer technology, > science, motor cars and such. They have no use for things that can > not be taken apart. It is exactly why we continue to parse thiese > books. Americans? Little sense of or use for tradition? Surely that can't be true. I think you might be confusing the pejorative sense of "ritual" with "tradition" here, because there are plenty of traditions being adhered to, even being *invented*, all around us every day. Heck, Americans are proud of their traditions! > The British, on the other hand, have magic as a part of their > national history. I see what you mean, but although in a concrete way almost all Americans are newcomers, having arrived here not too long ago, they did come from all those old countries in Europe and the rest of the world that surely had and still "have" strong and continuous indigenous magical cultures. If ethnic languages, clothes, foods, manners continue to live on among second- and third-generation Americans, why not magical traditions among, say, Nigerian-Americans? Being a newcomer doesn't mean being literally "new." And plee-hee-HEEase don't make our sad Muggular exclusion from the Potterverse worse by saying that even less of us have magical abilities... it's almost unbearable already! Aargh. From tracey_vampyre at yahoo.com Sat Oct 6 00:06:42 2001 From: tracey_vampyre at yahoo.com (Tracey) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 00:06:42 -0000 Subject: Wizards in the us Message-ID: <9plhui+f0m0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27214 > I agree that Elfreth's Alley would make an excellent portal for the > Philadelphia wizarding "shopping district," but there is probably > an equivalent of Diagon Alley in most cities in the US. I beg to differ. If Diagon Alley serves the entire British Isles (or even just the Island of England) and Hogsmeade is the only all wizarding village in the U.K., then the liklihood of a wizarding district in "most cities in the U. S." is very small. It is far more likely that U.S. wizards make up a small percentage of the total U.S. population. Decided to unlurk for a moment, But in Flordia we have a whole town the is nothing but of the Wicca and spritual knowledge. They have nothing but shops of wicca related items and alot of wands, crystals and that sort of thing. it's Wicca and New Age relatd there's a lot of stories about ghosts in the woods surrounding the town. from Lady of the Lake to the local hotel that is haunted,It's all quite and peaceful there and the woods that surround the area, also there's a old cemetary with headstones made of marbles and they have these quaint little houses that are set on rolling hill, that as soon as you leave the area it's all flat again (I always thought it was suspicious. It's all one street and thats the whole town. Cassadaga Florida. http://www.universalcentre.net/ http://www.cassadaga.com/mainpage.html From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Oct 6 00:58:52 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 17:58:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney going bad? In-Reply-To: <9pjoid+f7gf@eGroups.com> References: <9pjoid+f7gf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5029987798.20011005175852@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27215 Friday, October 05, 2001, 12:47:25 AM, catherine wrote: ccmdcu> Good idea, but I don't think it could be Voldemort because he speaks ccmdcu> with an unusually high pitched voice - certainly not a deep baritone. Besides which, I think V makes it clear in the Graveyard Speech that Wormtail's return came as much of a surprise to him as anyone. This question of "What surprising thing do you think will happen?" is a bit paradoxical actually, which is perhaps why I haven't been able to respond yet... Any convincing argument given as evidence for a "surprising" occurance makes it no longer surprising... -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Oct 6 01:13:46 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 18:13:46 -0700 Subject: R/H evidence from L.M. Alcott! (was: Hermione as Heroine -- Krum/Harry/Hermione) In-Reply-To: <3BBDB642.90308@swbell.net> References: <3BBDB642.90308@swbell.net> Message-ID: <15930882207.20011005181346@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27216 Hi Penny! Friday, October 05, 2001, 6:31:46 AM, you wrote: PB> In any case, the alternative is that she, without any particular motive PB> of getting rid of Krum, *talks about Harry all the time,* with the PB> result that Krum is very jealous of Harry as a romantic rival. Where's PB> Ronniekins in that scenario? If she really talks about him all the time PB> "because they're friends" as Harry asserts (perhaps even defensively), PB> then wouldn't she also talk about Ron all the time too? Nah, the girl's PB> got feelings for Harry I tell you. :--) Phoebe (from Louisa May Alcott's _Rose in Bloom_ ) would argue that the fact that Hermione "*never* talks about Ron" is a dead giveaway that she "does care for the dear old fellow"... -- Dave From kristen at sanderson-web.com Sat Oct 6 01:17:35 2001 From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (kristen at sanderson-web.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 01:17:35 -0000 Subject: What about the Dursleys? Message-ID: <9plm3f+t3dm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27217 In interviews, JKR has stated "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with them that people might not expect." (I borrowed the quote from the Lexicon) Maybe I've missed this discussion, but I was wondering what you all think. I'm thinking it has to be either: 1. They are related to someone unexpected - like the Riddles or Dumbledore. 2. One of them has magic abilities - would have to be Dudley or Petunia. 3. Something related to the "ancient magic" Dumbledore invoked to protect Harry. 4. Something else Whatever it is, I think it will terminate the necessity for Harry to live there during the summer. Also, since we find out more about Mrs. Figg (I think she'll need to blow her cover and then help Dumbledore by being DADA teacher), how would she continue to be able to watch over Harry? It will be interesting to see where Harry spends next summer. Kristen From angiebebb at hotmail.com Sat Oct 6 02:23:42 2001 From: angiebebb at hotmail.com (Angie) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:23:42 -0000 Subject: American Schools of Witchcraft and Wizardry In-Reply-To: <9pksur+df6o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plpve+nthj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27218 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > > > Long Island is > If a school exists in the tri-state area, I think that the school > should be in Westport, Connecticut. Why Westport? Because it's within > commuting distance to NYC. But more importantly that's the city where > 1164 Morning Glory Circle is located. What's so special about 1164 > Morning Glory Circle, you say? That's the address of the very famous > American witch, Samantha Stephens, her Muggle husband Darrin, and > their children, Tabitha and Adam. > > For the Mid-Western School, I pick Athens, Ohio. Athens is a hot- bed > of paranormal activity, everything from Indian burial grounds, Civil > War ghosts, cults and the really weird locations of the cemeteries. > And it's not too well-known either. > http://www.athenslegends.org/cemetaries.html I think I'll come out of the closet. If this falls flat, blame my new status. Anyway. . . I don't see why the site of an American wizarding school would have to be a place known for sightings of ghosts and such. I'm no expert, but London, where (tentatively) Diagon Alley seems to reside, isn't what one immediately associates with magic. At least, not that I've ever heard. I don't have a quess as to where it actually DOES reside, but that's just my opinion on the places known for strange happenings. Even I can poke holes in my own theory, like you certainly aren't going to be able to control alll the magical mistakes, but I'll just shut up now. -Catta From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 6 02:49:10 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:49:10 -0000 Subject: Yet Another Flint? -- Fudge and the Dementors In-Reply-To: <9plaag+npe1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plrf6+ufd5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27219 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > How does Fudge learn that something drove the dementors off at all, > or that they tried to Kiss Harry? Aren't the only people who could > have told Fudge about this the dementors themselves? Does this mean > Fudge may have some relationship with the dementors that we don't > fully understand? Fudge says of that robed tribe in Chap. 10: "Rosmerta, dear, I don't like them any more than you do.....Necessary precaution... unfortunate, but there YOU are.... I've just met some of them. They're in a fury against Dumbledore -- he won't let them inside the castle grounds." We don't know how they do it - mental telepathy, Morse code, sign language, exchanging hand-written notes - but dementors can communicate with humans. The dementors surely had no reason to conceal their encounter with Harry's Patronus from such *sympaticos* as Fudge and Snape ("How can we get our job done with horrors like Prongs floating around this place?") - CMC From lsease at supernet.com Sat Oct 6 02:54:50 2001 From: lsease at supernet.com (lsease at supernet.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:54:50 -0000 Subject: Ron's Virtue (was "Dam' Good Auror")/Gay Characters In-Reply-To: <9pke7p+gcbi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plrpq+usi8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27220 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Now, about the issue of gay characters. Unless future books change > substantially, I'd be surprised to see JKR start revealing the sexual > orientation of her characters. As it stands, precious few characters > are married or involved in any kind of romantic relationship. This > makes sense to me because, as a teen, I was often completely clueless > about the romantic relationships of my teachers and other adults in > my life (and even a lot of my peers). Why should Harry's world be > any different? If a character suddenly turned out to be gay, I'd > certainly raise an eyebrow unless it could be demonstrated that the > issue has some relevance to the plot, just as if characters suddenly > starting procreating. I don't expect to see gay characters either, and I hope we don't. This is a fantasy novel, it's not suppose to deal with real-life problems and situations except through metaphors and allegories (like the House Elf situation). I'm openly lesbian, and I have to deal with enough homophobia in my office and in the small town where I live. When read Harry, I want to be able to relax and enjoy the book. Seeing my adolescent self reflected in some confused gay student at Hogwarts would just be too real and would seem out of place. Thank you for comparing Ron to McCoy on Star Trek. I finally understand why Ron is my favorite character. It makes perfect sense, because McCoy was always my favorite character too. They both are more in the background compared to the other two main characters and have a dark sense of humor. From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 6 03:12:11 2001 From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 03:12:11 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9pl1sk+hekd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plsqb+7il1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27221 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: (major snipping) . Americans, > having little sense of or use for tradition, prefer technology, > science, motor cars and such. They have no use for things that can > not be taken apart. It is exactly why we continue to parse thiese > books. Since we have seen no US wizards in HP, and it's been left up to my imagination, I've always pictured them as much more integrated into American muggle society than the old world wizards. Also much more techno savvy. Being a relatively new country, and full of such a mixture of nations and races, it might be harder to remain isolated, especially for immmigrants uprooted from everything they knew. Would they feel more comfortable in a way with muggles from their country than wizards from another culture? Although I would like to see a US wizard, I think it it would disturb the mood of the HP world, which is mostly removed from the muggle world. I could picture a US wizard owning a car, having a muggle job, dressing in muggle clothing, and up on the latest music, news, and sports. Donna From jlile at cet.com Sat Oct 6 03:45:43 2001 From: jlile at cet.com (Janelle Lile) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:45:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <9plm3f+t3dm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c14e19$5fdf4060$90d1fea9@slow> No: HPFGUIDX 27222 >>2. One of them has magic abilities - would have to be Dudley or >>Petunia. Well, hey, why not Vernon? Perhaps he met Petunia at a support group meeting for Muggle Families of Hogwarts Students when they were younger. Their jealousy (or is that envy?) of their respective siblings united them and eventually they fell in love (editorial comment: Even a young Vernon sounds pretty icky to me. But to each her own.) Janelle "Angela stamped her foot. An unladylike action, no doubt, but how much better than kicking an uncle with it, as her lower nature prompted." P.G. Wodehouse From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 6 03:17:07 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 03:17:07 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9plsqb+7il1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9plt3j+4g9u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27223 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bookraptor11 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: (major snipping) > Since we have seen no US wizards in HP, Three African wizards sat in serious conversation, all of them wearing long white robes and roasting what looked like a rabbit on a bright purple fire, while a group of middle-aged American witches sat gossiping happily beneath a spangled banner stretched between their tents that read: THE SALEM WITCHES' INSTITUTE. - GoF, Chap. 7 And in QTA, we are also given a description of Quodpot, which seems to play football to Quidditch's soccer (if you have the wit to conceive me) - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 6 03:20:51 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 03:20:51 -0000 Subject: What about the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <9plm3f+t3dm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pltaj+rlfi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27224 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kristen at s... wrote: > In interviews, JKR has stated > "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's stuff coming with > them that people might not expect." I'm thinking it has to be either: > > 1. They are related to someone unexpected > 2. One of them has magic abilities - > 3. Something related to the "ancient magic" Dumbledore invoked to > protect Harry. > 4. Something else Maybe its (4) - like they act civilized for once, and/or treat Harry with kindness and respect. - CMC From catlady at wicca.net Sat Oct 6 03:50:55 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 03:50:55 -0000 Subject: Gay Character - "Food" - Barty Jr - Cruciatis - North American Wizards Message-ID: <9plv30+5i6f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27225 In my previous post, I forgot to repeat my constant suggestion that Bill Weasley being gay would provide some major opportunities for humor. Such as Fleur (who has already been seen to be interested in him) making some excuse to come to the Burrow while the whole family (and Harry) is gathered there in order to chase after him and all the other boys are trailing after her with their tongues hanging out and the other grown men are gazing at her with dreamy smiles and Bill isn't affected at all. Such as Molly nagging her oldest son to find a nice witch and get married and give her grandchildren, and finally exasperating him to the point that he says "I've already found the person with whom I want to spend the rest of myself, and it isn't a witch." Molly jumps to the obvious conclusion and starts yelling at him for thinking that she would be unwelcoming to the girl of his choice just for being a Muggle. He eventually gets a word in edgewise: "Not a Muggle." Molly, horrified: "A Veela?" Bill: "No, Mum, a very nice wizard." Beverley Warmaster wrote: > who now has to review the archives to find > out what the heck clotted cream and spotted > dick are Actually, those are easier to find than 'what are wine gums?" Besides Ask Jeeves and http://www.onelook.com/index.html (One-Look Dictionary), there are http://www.effingpot.com/ and http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/index.htm Mindy wrote: > I think that Barty Sr. did Barty Jr. a > major disservice by releasing him from > prison. For the rest of Jr.'s life, he'd > have to be in hiding in his dad's house > under a cloak. What kind of life is that? > It's almost as bad as Azkaban. It's torture. > It's like being in solitary confinement for life. It isn't quite solitary confinement, as he has Winky to bring him books and stuff. But it IS, as you point, pretty bad. But it's better than being in Azkaban with the Dementors: I think that the only thing worse that being constantly surrounded by numerous Dementors would be to be permanently under Cruciatis. That raises questions: would Cruciatis applied continually for a week or a month or a year kill a person who had been young and healthy when it began? Or would the heart keep beating, the lungs keep breathing, and the ghost remain inside the body as long as the evil wizard who is performing this sadistic experiement keeps the body nourished and hydrated by intravenous spells? If it doesn't snuff out the life, we know from Neville's poor parents that it snuffs out the mind: what happens to people who have gone mad from excessive Cruciatis? Do they mercifully lose the ability to feel pain? Do they, most horribly, continue to feel the pain of Cruciatis for the rest of their lives, even after the spell is removed? Barb wrote: > In fact, I suspect that the seemingly > small number of British Isles wizards > might be directly attributable to the > siphoning-off of the wizarding population > to the U.S. in the late nineteenth century. > (snip) just like the large variety of > religious and ethnic groups who found > shelter on these shores QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES says many British wizarding folk emigrated to the American colonies in the seventeenth and eighteenth century in hope of evading the persecution in Britain/Europe. Which suggests that the history textbook's explanation of why Witch Burning in the Middle Ages Was Completely Pointless was one of those lies told by textbooks (there may be a Flame-Freezing Charm, but the persecution was troubling enough that the wizarding folk emigrated because of it) I preferred my own Potterverse, in which the wizarding folk's magic let them hide from Muggles well enough in the old country, so that few wizarding folk emigrated, mostly those who were on the run from wizarding law enforcers, leading to North America being a sparsely populated kind of Wild West for non-First-Nations wizarding folk, who didn't get wizarding schools or Quidditch teams or proper wands or the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy until post-WWII. > Plus, they would be able to connect with > wizarding Native Americans... In *my* Potterverse, in North America the indigenous wizarding folk got a good look at how Euro-American Muggles treated Native American Muggles and promptly, effectively hid themselves away from Euro-American wizarding folk -- I don't know if they also concealed themselves from African-American and Asian-American wizarding folk as well, lest they spill the beans, or if all wizards of color are in on it. However, in the great empires of South and Central America (e.g. Maya, Aztec, Inca), the wizarding folk had well-established schools and bureaucracies and powerful/profitable jobs for the Muggle governments, and easily adopted the immigrant wizarding folk into their societies and easily switched their useful contracts from the old defeated Muggle governments to the new victorious Muggle governments. From robin_mcdonagh at hotmail.com Sat Oct 6 06:01:16 2001 From: robin_mcdonagh at hotmail.com (robin_mcdonagh at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 06:01:16 -0000 Subject: Why did Dumbledore have a look of triumph? Message-ID: <9pm6nc+qt7o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27226 At the end of book four, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, as Harry explains that Wormtail took some of his blood, put it in the cauldron so that Voldemort could touch him again, Dumbledore looks up with a look like truimph, which Harry says is quickly gone. I'm not sure where, but I'm sure that I saw on a very reliable site a copy of an interview, where someone asks that very question. J.K. said that she won't tell why, but she is sure that someone will guess. Is it obvious to anyone? Not to me. Please, if anyone has any ideas, it would be appreciated if you could post your ideas. I know that there are more pressing questions, but this one really has me stumped, with hardly a guess as to why he could have had this reaction. If you would like to email me directly, I am at robin_mcdonagh at hotmail.com. Thank you for reading my ever-so-interesting bullitin about nothing. From litalex at yahoo.com Sat Oct 6 06:36:56 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 23:36:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's Virtue (was "Dam' Good Auror")/Gay Characters In-Reply-To: <9plrpq+usi8@eGroups.com> References: <9pke7p+gcbi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011005231943.009ec200@pop.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27227 Hello, At 07:54 PM 10/5/2001, you wrote: >Harry, I want to be able to relax and enjoy the book. Seeing my >adolescent self reflected in some confused gay student at Hogwarts >would just be too real and would seem out of place. You've been too influenced by the political correctness in American culture . It doesn't have to be that way at all. We have no idea how the Wizard world treats its gay members. Perhaps they're all perfectly fine with it and take it as calmly and casually as people do in...I don't know, Holland or something. The best way to 'properly' introduce a gay character into the mix, imho, would be to do it as off-handedly as Cho, with her presumably Chinese background, was introduced, as Angelina, with her African-British (?) heritage, was introduced, etc. If having an ethnicity other than the, um, majority's isn't a big deal, having a sexual orientation that's not mainstream shouldn't be a big deal either. For example, Ms. Rowling mentioned casually that Malfoy was going with Pansy what's her name to the Yule Ball. She could have as easily mentioned that he was going with, um, one of the male Quidditch members on Slytherin and Harry giving the aside joke of "Now I know why all the Slytherin are always stuck in the practice room. And if a gay villain isn't a good idea, you could have, oh, Seamus Finnigan merrily going with Dean Thomas to the Yule Ball. And Harry could either wink and laugh, or sputter, "But you like girls!" If it's the latter, then you can have Seamus or Dean wink and dismiss it easily with some joke (e.g. pinching the other's nose and says "But just *look* at how cute he is! How can I not!") Trust me, there need not be any "The Last Herald-Mage Trilogy"-styled, completely out of proportion angst and sorrow and soul-searching . Um, no offense to the ever popular Ms. Lackey, of course. little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From oppen at cnsinternet.com Sat Oct 6 07:39:42 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 02:39:42 -0500 Subject: Potions Classes Message-ID: <027801c14e3a$10e50a00$b9ae1cce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 27228 It occurs to me that if I were in Hogwarts, I might actually do fairly well in Potions. From what we see, Potions looks a lot like a magical version of cooking, and I'm a fair-to-middling cook (that is, if I have a recipe to work from) and, if I say so, a crackerjack home-brewer. I would like to know how much carry-over there is between Potions and cooking. I never had the usual male delusion that cooking was "women's work;" my mother made sure of _that._ Not only did she point out to me that the great chefs (at least in China, and France) are men, she also got me interested by making a rule that only cooks and their assistants got to snack. I doubt I'd be interested in snacking in Potions class, but at least it wouldn't be totally alien to me. Besides, I'm sure I'd be in Ravenclaw (too unambitious for Slytherin, too lazy for Hufflepuff, and not particularly brave, so Gryffindor's right straight out) so at least Snapey wouldn't be going out of his way to make me nervous, or so I hope. It wouldn't particularly surprise me to find out, in a future book, that Professor Snape, in his non-teaching moments, is a Cordon Bleu-level chef in his own right, and one of his jobs (other than terrorizing Gryffindors and piling loads of unearned points onto Slytherins) is to supervise the house-elves so that the food is up to Hogwarts standards. Wouldn't it be funny if Hermione, on one of her expeditions into the kitchens to rouse the house-elves to revolution, found herself hiding in a corner while Professor Snape told the house-elves just _what_ standards he expected to see from them? Comments? Flames? Responses? From lake4fam at earthlink.net Sat Oct 6 07:43:38 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 07:43:38 -0000 Subject: Fleeting look of triumph on Dumbledore's face at end of GoF Message-ID: <9pmcna+j718@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27229 I think that the reason Dumbledore, arguably the greatest wizard of the age, let escape that gleam of triumph is that he knows that by taking in some of HP's blood, Voldemort ("always call a thing by its name") has in some arcane manner made himself vulnerable to HP. We may have to wait until the boy matures, but given all that HP has endured thus far, he will be a formidable 17-year-old. (I've raised two young men who fit that description, and neither of them dealt with what HP has.) This blood-borne connection is not one that AD wishes to discuss with Harry, because it deals with a magic both darker and more advanced than Harry is at present capable of dealing with. Besides, how would YOU* like to know that you are now magically linked with the greatest evil of your world, which has tried persis- tently to do away with you? And to learn that even as you recover from the latest attempt? *caps because there are no italics dittany/custodienne (I heard my favourite speech today in the tape of SS/PS, but I was in my vehicle and can't quote it:-( has to do with the Truth, from the above-mentioned greatest wizard of the age) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 6 09:54:30 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:54:30 -0000 Subject: Favorite HP "Speech" In-Reply-To: <9pidan+mqag@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pmkcm+utvm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27230 Laura wrote: > Does anyone else have a favorite? > > Laura - reserving the right to change her mind and decide a different > speech is really her favorite Amy, doing the same, submits this one, also from PS/SS: "Well that's it then, isn't it?" Harry said. The other two stared at him. He was pale and his eyes were glittering. "I'm going out of here tonight and I'm going to try and get to the Stone first." "You're mad!" said Ron. "You can't!" said Hermione. "After what McGonagall and Snape have said? You'll be expelled!" "SO WHAT?" Harry shouted. "Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of the Stone, Voldemort's coming back! Haven't you heard what it was like when he was trying to take over? There won't be any Hogwarts to get expelled from! He'll flatten it, or turn it into a school for the Dark Arts! Losing points doesn't matter any more, can't you see? D'you think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor win the house cup? If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there. It's only dying a bit later than I would have done, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! I'm going through that trapdoor tonight and nothing you two say is going to stop me! Voldemort killed my parents, remember?" He glared at them. I just love that, and run it back at least once every time I listen. It's not so much anything he says, though that's great, or the way he says it, which lacks Snape's eloquence, but the fire and sheer courage in this kid who isn't yet 12 years old that move me. This is also the first moment in the books when he seems thoroughly part of the wizarding world. Amy Z From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 6 10:13:47 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 10:13:47 -0000 Subject: How Fawkes got into the Chamber In-Reply-To: <9pfgo8+2hr9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pmlgr+h4cr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27231 from FB: (in phoenix entry) "Like the Diricawl (see above), it can disappear and reappear at will." (in diricawl entry) " . . . the Diricawl is remarkable for its method of escaping danger. It can vanish in a puff of feathers and reappear elsewhere (the phoenix shares this ability; see below)." I doubt a phoenix is constrained by the anti-Apparition spells within the castle. Amy Z for the League of Obsessed Nitpickers ---------------------------------------------------- "This is a =girls'= bathroom," she said, eyeing Ron and Harry suspiciously. "=They're= not girls." "No," Hermione agreed. -HP and the Chamber of Secrets ---------------------------------------------------- From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Oct 6 12:38:41 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 12:38:41 -0000 Subject: Potions Classes In-Reply-To: <027801c14e3a$10e50a00$b9ae1cce@hppav> Message-ID: <9pmu0h+5kh3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27232 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > It occurs to me that if I were in Hogwarts, I might actually do fairly well > in Potions. From what we see, Potions looks a lot like a magical version of > cooking, and I'm a fair-to-middling cook (that is, if I have a recipe to > work from) and, if I say so, a crackerjack home-brewer. > > I would like to know how much carry-over there is between Potions and > cooking. > doubt I'd be interested in snacking in Potions class... What? You don't think you'd like chewing on boomslang or shrivelfigs?? I can't imagine why not... > It wouldn't particularly surprise me to find out, in a future book, that > Professor Snape, in his non-teaching moments, is a Cordon Bleu- level chef in > his own right, and one of his jobs (other than terrorizing Gryffindors and > piling loads of unearned points onto Slytherins) is to supervise the > house-elves so that the food is up to Hogwarts standards. Wouldn't it be > funny if Hermione, on one of her expeditions into the kitchens to rouse the > house-elves to revolution, found herself hiding in a corner while Professor > Snape told the house-elves just _what_ standards he expected to see from > them? Yes, I can see Snape going off on some poor house elf because s/he isn't chopping the parsley fine enough for Snape's exacting standards. Or Hermione will come back to the dorms with a revelation that Snape's idea of a great midnight snack is hot cocoa and a meatloaf sandwich. I've had a similar thought about how I'd do in Potions, and my conclusion was that I'd probably mess up because I'm not the most exact, precise person in the world. Which is how I cook - I live by fairly broad definitions of terms - chopped, minced and finely diced may all look pretty much the same, depending on how involved I want to be. This would not be good in Potions. Plus, I do have that devil-may-care attitude of "Let's throw in 5 extra cloves of garlic, and maybe some additional hot sauce and see what happens..." Guaranteed to send Snape screaming into the night, or at least lose my house way too many points.... Marianne, more casual Italian than Cordon Bleu From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 6 12:58:06 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 12:58:06 -0000 Subject: Favorite HP "Speech" (LONG) In-Reply-To: <9pmkcm+utvm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pmv4u+vtfg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27233 > Laura wrote: > > > Does anyone else have a favorite? > > Although I could nominate a few others, the following LONG speech is my favorite." "I say to you all, once again -- in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open. "It is my belief -- and never have I so hoped that I am mistaken -- that we are all facing dark and difficult times. Some of you in this Hall have already suffered directly at the hands of Lord Voldemort. Many of your families have been torn asunder. A week ago, a student was taken from our midst. "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." I like the way this speech builds to a moving crescendo. It had to be something suitable to set the stage for the battle coming in future books, and it had to motivate the students to work together. The best part about it is that Dumbledore never says exactly what he expects the students to do; that is for them to work out. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 6 13:23:46 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 13:23:46 -0000 Subject: -- Fudge and the Dementors In-Reply-To: <9plrf6+ufd5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pn0l2+dnk5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27234 Cindy wrote: > > > > How does Fudge learn that something drove the dementors off at all, > > or that they tried to Kiss Harry? Aren't the only people who could > > have told Fudge about this the dementors themselves? Does this > mean > > Fudge may have some relationship with the dementors that we don't > > fully understand? > Caius wrote: > Fudge says of that robed tribe in Chap. 10: "Rosmerta, dear, I don't > like them any more than you do.....Necessary precaution... > unfortunate, but there YOU are.... I've just met some of them. > They're in a fury against Dumbledore -- he won't let them inside the > castle grounds." > > We don't know how they do it - mental telepathy, Morse code, sign > language, exchanging hand-written notes - but dementors can > communicate with humans. The dementors surely had no reason to > conceal their encounter with Harry's Patronus from such *sympaticos* > as Fudge and Snape ("How can we get our job done with horrors like > Prongs floating around this place?") > LOL! OK, no Flint, then. Fudge's relationship with the dementors is a curious one, though. We know he can communicate with dementors from the passage you cite, as well as the passage where they tell Fudge that Black keeps saying "He's at Hogwarts." I guess it makes sense that the dementors would tell Fudge that they didn't get the chance to capture or kiss Black because of the Patronus. But I think it is a little strange that the dementors would go so far as to admit to Fudge (their boss?) that they were planning on kissing Harry. They apparently did tell him that, though, so it makes me wonder anew whether Fudge is evil in some way or (gasp) a DE. In GoF, Fudge lets the dementor swoop in and kiss Crouch. If he can communicate with the dementors, then he either knew the dementor planned to do this, or he elected not to order the dementor to stop. The best reason I can think of that Fudge might wish to silence Crouch is that Fudge is supporting Voldemort. Uh oh. Cindy (who is having trouble "reading" a politician like Fudge) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 6 14:33:58 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:33:58 -0000 Subject: Gay Characters In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011005231943.009ec200@pop.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pn4om+3fmt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27235 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > Perhaps they're all perfectly fine with it > and take it as calmly and casually as people do in...I don't know, Holland > or something. > > The best way to 'properly' introduce a gay character into the mix, imho, > would be to do it as off-handedly as Cho, with her presumably Chinese > background, was introduced, as Angelina, with her African-British (?) > heritage, was introduced, etc. If having an ethnicity other than the, um, > majority's isn't a big deal, having a sexual orientation that's not > mainstream shouldn't be a big deal either. > I'm not sure that it would work to casually introduce a character's sexual orientation in the way one can casually introduce race. Race is a physical trait that Harry can readily observe, of course, whereas sexual orientation is not immediately observable to our protagonist. It would have to be revealed through dialogue or some sort of action, as you indicate below. > For example, Ms. Rowling mentioned casually that Malfoy was going with > Pansy what's her name to the Yule Ball. She could have as easily mentioned > that he was going with, um, one of the male Quidditch members on Slytherin > and Harry giving the aside joke of "Now I know why all the Slytherin are > always stuck in the practice room. And if a gay villain isn't a good idea, > you could have, oh, Seamus Finnigan merrily going with Dean Thomas to the > Yule Ball. And Harry could either wink and laugh, or sputter, "But you > like girls!" If it's the latter, then you can have Seamus or Dean wink and > dismiss it easily with some joke (e.g. pinching the other's nose and says > "But just *look* at how cute he is! How can I not!") > Should introducing a gay character in the HP books, or even hinting at the subject, be a Big Deal? No. Would it be Big Deal in the U.S.? Well, "Big Deal" isn't exactly right, because the correct term would be Commercial Kiss of Death. The HP books in the U.S. were initially viewed as kids' books. I first heard of them because my daughter's teacher read them to the kids in second grade. Yes, we have all discussed how they have gone far beyond kids books now, and we know that JKR plans to move the series away from childrens' literature in future books. But so long as toy stores in the U.S. are filled with little HP toys, I think a lot of people will continue to see them as primarily childrens' books. In the U.S., there are unfortunately large numbers of people who are openly hostile to anything gay, and there are really huge numbers of people who are "tolerant", meaning they are willing to live and let live, but they don't want gay issues presented to them. Sorry, but it is true. Recall that Disney was subjected to a silly boycott for daring to offer health insurance to partners of its gay and lesbian workers. People get even more unreasonably hysterical if they think their children have been "exposed" to something gay. So if JKR came to me and said she was thinking of introducing a gay character, well, we'd have to go out for tea so I could explain that doing so would probably kill the series in the U.S. The most she could probably do is have Harry just "wonder" about some character's orientation. But I have a hard time (plot-wise) seeing how Harry can muse about this and have it in some way be relevant to the upcoming fight against Voldemort. I'll pause to note that someone posted that the books are supposed to be fantasy, not weighed down by heavy social issues. I guess this is true in some sense. There is certainly a great deal of talk in the books about themes like prejudice, etc., and certain characters are identified by race. But JKR has stayed away from direct comment on hot-button and controversial issues of the day. So I doubt that we'll see Fleur deal with an abortion or unwanted pregnancy, despite how important these issues are. For me, it would be just a little too much information. I hope gay issues will be regarded differently and with more understanding in the future, and maybe they will be. But unless JKR would like to sacrifice the commercial success of HP for the purpose of increasing understanding and appreciation of gay issues, I think she has to stay 10 feet away from gay relationships. (For what it is worth, I think she should also tread very lightly with various hetero Ships, too, because if she goes much beyond schoolyard crushes like "The Unexpected Task", there's gonna be trouble.) Cindy (who appreciates the maturity and consideration evident in the posts on this topic) From screamigfreedom at onebox.com Sat Oct 6 14:37:11 2001 From: screamigfreedom at onebox.com (screamigfreedom at onebox.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:37:11 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter Premier contest Message-ID: <9pn4un+ubev@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27236 Warner Bros. has a contest where you can win a miny premier for 200 of your friends. Check it out at http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/hometown/contest/index.html Rusty Ford Best pager deal 1800 pages, free pager, voice messaging for $99 http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/hometown/contest/index.html From conshydot at email.com Sat Oct 6 15:11:38 2001 From: conshydot at email.com (conshydot at email.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:11:38 -0000 Subject: What would it take to really surprise you? In-Reply-To: <9pidtu+74gr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pn6va+5lf3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27237 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > > > > Anyone else have a wild and highly improbable theory they'd like to share? > > > > Everyone always comments about weird timelines and mistakes in dates and improbable time occurences. What if there is Muggle time and Wizard time? Wizard time could be an alternate time line running parralel to muggle time with portals ( like platform 9 3/4) at specific places. In some Arthurian Legends, Merlin Youthens he doesn't age. What if the JKR is doing a similar thing in HP? This a theory I've had for quite a while, but could never "prove" it. Thank you for the opputunity to go off the deep end. From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 6 15:59:40 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 08:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9pl1sk+hekd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011006155940.7863.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27238 --- fourfuries at aol.com wrote: > In fact it is probable that U.S. Wizards comprise a > smaller > percentage of the U.S. population than wizards > comprise of the > European nations. If wizarding is passed down both > as a science/art > and as a genetic disposition, it is easy to predict > that the U.S., as > a realtively new nation lacking a wizarding > tradition and being > notoriously hostile to the emergence of witchcraft, > would have seen a > precipitious decrease in the wizarding passed on > from generation to > generation. "Lacking a wizardly tradition!!" Leaving aside the Native Americans I would point out immigrants bring their traditions with them. There are 'little people' in the Apalachians, Grims have been reported in lonely sections of the US and we've got ghosts galore. Don't tell me we don't have a 'Wizarding tradition'!. > Consider that American Indian shaman were generally > only one per > tribe atmost, and they were mostly killed off along > with the rest of > aboriginal culture. There are today two million full blooded American Indians in the United States, twice the estimated number before the first Europeans landed. The Shamanistic tradition is very much alive among them, and may I add they are pissed as hell over 'New Age' hijackings of their spritituality. Or how about the Salem withch > trials, which > certainly drove magicking further underground, > regardless of whether > the burnings at the stake tickled, or whether > gillyweed and bubble > head charms were readily available to witches > subjected to ritual > drowning. twenty four people died during the Salem witchcraft hysteria, a severely localized phenomena btw, nineteen were hung, one pressed to death, the rest died in prison. And this was the largest witch persecution in American history. Falls pretty far short of the thousands burned to death in Europe doesn't it? > Further, and despite what the supremacists delude > themselves into > believing, the American racial stew is so > thouroughly mixed, the > bloodlines for a trait like wizard-ability must be > awfully muddied. > Black, White, Indian, Irish, Mexican, etc., etc. > etc. Ever hear of 'hybrid vigor'? Since wizarding ability occurs in all ethnic groups mixtures of same would certainly not weaken the strain. The only thing that might would be wholesale mixing with Muggles - and even that seems to be necessary to preserve the Wizarding strain according to Ron. How is any > gene supposed to pass from generation to generation > in such an > intermingled environment? This is entirely meaningless. Whether genes get passed down or not is entirely due to the shuffling of chromosones and has nothing to do with racial mixing. > This goes part and parcel with my final point. > Wizarding is conrary to the American ideal. > In wizarding, all men are not created equal. > There are greater and lesser talents, and some have > no talent at all. You think all Muggles are equal in ability? 'All men are created equal' means equality before the law not sameness of talent or intelligence or magic. There is not even the illusion of equality, as > old line > families denigrate the lineage of mudbloods who > struggle with their > muggle relatives over the meaning of this > blessing/curse. At least that's the state of things in England. No telling what the American Wizarding community's stand is on 'blood' or Muggle relations. Americans, > having little sense of or use for tradition, prefer > technology, > science, motor cars and such. They have no use for > things that can > not be taken apart. It is exactly why we continue > to parse thiese > books. This is pure stereotyping. If true there would be no American readers of these books. > The British, on the other hand, have magic as a part > of their > national history. Arthur would not have been king > but for a wizard > named Merlin and an enchanted sword and stone. The > Druids were up to > something at Stonehenge, The Druids had nothing to do with Stonehenge, it predates them by some two thousand years. Modern Druidical claims not withstanding. the evidence of which still > stands. The > very oldness of the land, the mysterious topography, > its cold climate > and ageless traditions all support the propagation > of the magical > arts in ways that the shiny new America can never > hope to compete. All lands are equally old. The Rockies, the Painted Desert, the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, don't qualify as 'mysterious topography'? Not to mention the Anasazi ruins and the monuments of the Mound Builders. If you want cold climate what about the Northeast? or Alaska? > Sorry U.S. citizens, but I doubt there is more than > one Diagon Alley > on the entire continent of North America. You're entitled to your opinion of course. Mine is quite different. Considering the immigration from all continents and cultures, the spaciousness of the country and the dynamicism produced by a mixture of races and ideas I would guess the American Wizarding population rivals that of all Europe and is probably considerably less frowsty and medieval. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 6 16:14:01 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Gay Character - "Food" - Barty Jr - Cruciatis - North American Wizards In-Reply-To: <9plv30+5i6f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011006161401.72876.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27239 --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES says many British > wizarding folk emigrated > to the American colonies in the seventeenth and > eighteenth century in > hope of evading the persecution in Britain/Europe. > Which suggests > that the history textbook's explanation of why Witch > Burning in the > Middle Ages Was Completely Pointless was one of > those lies told by > textbooks (there may be a Flame-Freezing Charm, but > the persecution > was troubling enough that the wizarding folk > emigrated because of it) Even if you surivived the burning at the stake you still lost your home and possessions and had to start over again somewhere else - why not the New World? > In *my* Potterverse, in North America the indigenous > wizarding folk > got a good look at how Euro-American Muggles treated > Native American > Muggles and promptly, effectively hid themselves > away from > Euro-American wizarding folk In fact very early relations with the Indians were fairly good. That they deteriorated the way they did was the fault of both parties. It seems to me likely Indian Wizards and Witches would identify more strongly with their European counterparts than neighboring Muggles. 'Race' as such doesn't seem to be an issue in the Wizarding world. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From saitaina at wizzards.net Sat Oct 6 16:57:21 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:57:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gay Characters References: <9pn4om+3fmt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <01a701c14e87$f80c6d40$174e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 27240 I don't think it would be a Kiss of Death love. It would actually see an INCREASE of sales for that one book. Controversy is great for one thing, publicity. The more something is embroiled in controversy the more people check it out to see what is going on. Boycotts and the like only serve to increase public curiosity and American's, as a whole, tend to look into maters more then is good for us. We hear something is evil...and we look at it to see how evil it is. We hear a book is horrible, we buy it so we can moan about it later. It's a common practice with Americans. The Disney 'Sexcapades" were one of these times. We heard rumors of male body parts and bad words in Disney movies...so we bought/rented them to check. Sales of the 'Gay Harry Potter Book' (lovely title no?) would increase dramatically among those in the bible belt and other places where people with loud mouths and close minded views want to rant about something. After all, you can't yell loudly if you have nothing to yell about. But beyond that fact, I don't think having a gay character or not having one should matter in these books. Unless it happens to be in regards to Voldemort dancing around in a dress and singing over the rainbow with Wormtail dressed as a shaggy black dog, it has nothing to do with the up coming fight and has nothing to do with what is currently happening in the series. Most likely, given them number of students, someone in some house, is wondering about their sexuality. It could be anyone from little Susan Bones to the great Ron Weasley, but somewhere, someone is wondering, and we may find out, and we may not. But the only way we really will find out, is if Harry walks in on Susan and Hannah snogging in the Astronomy Tower, or Ron admiring a copy of PlayWitch. Saitaina ***** "And how long have you known your girlfriend was Tinkerbell?" -Xander, Season 6, Buffy the Vampire Slayer "Some people make scenes," Harry had said to her once. "Draco makes three-act plays." Harry, "Draco Veritis", Harry Potter Fanfiction [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joym999 at aol.com Sat Oct 6 17:25:15 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 17:25:15 -0000 Subject: Potions Classes In-Reply-To: <9pmu0h+5kh3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pnepr+8cul@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27241 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > Yes, I can see Snape going off on some poor house elf because s/he > isn't chopping the parsley fine enough for Snape's exacting > standards. Or Hermione will come back to the dorms with a revelation > that Snape's idea of a great midnight snack is hot cocoa and a > meatloaf sandwich. > I agree with Zarleycat's analysis of Snape, except that I think his favorite midnight snack is tomato juice and lamb chops, rare. With ketchup. --Joywitch, for S.U.A.V.E. (Snape's Unquestionably A Vampire Evil) From valjean131 at aol.com Sat Oct 6 18:28:29 2001 From: valjean131 at aol.com (Monique) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:28:29 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <20011006155940.7863.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pnigd+b6ou@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27242 > > Sorry U.S. citizens, but I doubt there is more than > > one Diagon Alley > > on the entire continent of North America. You've obviously never been to Los Angeles ;-) -Q From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sat Oct 6 18:36:35 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:36:35 -0000 Subject: R/H evidence from L.M. Alcott! (was: Hermione as Heroine -- Krum/Harry/Hermione) In-Reply-To: <15930882207.20011005181346@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9pnivj+iq7p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27243 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > Hi Penny! > Phoebe (from Louisa May Alcott's _Rose in Bloom_ ) would argue that > the fact that Hermione "*never* talks about Ron" is a dead giveaway > that she "does care for the dear old fellow"... > > -- > Dave Hey, Dave! You must know that the majority of those polled in the camp Penny and I reside in *still* haven't forgiven Miss Alcott for what she pulled in the Little Women books. So don't get us started on LMA and romance. We could be here alllllll day. ;-) --Ebony AKA AngieJ (whose shipping boggart is that we do indeed have a LMA situation on our hands--Ginny as Amy--but then would Hermione end up with Lupin? Ack! ;-)) From catlady at wicca.net Sat Oct 6 19:48:40 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 19:48:40 -0000 Subject: Ebony/Ships, Gay Character Message-ID: <9pnn6o+2mr5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27244 Ebony wrote: > --Ebony AKA AngieJ (whose shipping boggart is that we do indeed > have a LMA situation on our hands--Ginny as Amy--but then would > Hermione end up with Lupin? Ack! ;-)) I can imaginr that Hermione could end up with Lupin. Not at Hogwarts -- in adult life, when their research paths continually cross in libraries and archives, and acquaintance gradually evolves into friendship and more... Cindy wrote: > So if JKR came to me and said she was thinking of introducing a gay > character, well, we'd have to go out for tea so I could explain > that doing so would probably kill the series in the U.S. She started writing the series for herself, not in hopes of making a ton of money, and now that she HAS made a ton of money, doesn't that free her to do what she wants without worrying whether it'll be profitable? > The most she could probably do is have Harry just "wonder" about > some character's orientation. But I have a hard time (plot-wise) > seeing how Harry can muse about this and have it in some way be > relevant to the upcoming fight against Voldemort. One young man is captured as hostage by the Dark Side and another young man is most frantically determined to rescue him, and Harry wonders why they're so attached to each other. From heidit at netbox.com Sat Oct 6 20:13:51 2001 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 20:13:51 -0000 Subject: I hope no one objects but I would like to know if anyone... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003190927.00ac8010@netmail.home.com> Message-ID: <9pnolv+lsn6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27245 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite wrote: > I somehow don't think that would even occur to her. But it already has, sort of. And no, I am not speaking of subtext here. But if m/m relationships never crossed her mind in any way, she wouldn't've had ron say, "I don't reckon he'd come home if Dad didn't make him. He's obsessed. Just don't get him onto the subject of his boss. According to Mr. Crouch ... as I was saying to Mr. Crouch ... Mr. Crouch is of the opinion ... Mr. Crouch was telling me ... They'll be announcing their engagement any day now." Now, this does not mean that Ron is implying Percy is gay, or that Mr Crouch is, or that they're in a nonbusiness relationship in any way. But the last sentence shows, IMHO, that in the wizarding universe in which Ron lives, there are same-gender relationships. If there weren't, the sentence wouldn't've occured to Ron. He would've been like the people of Krikkit, who've never thought `We are alone' simply because it has never occurred to them to think that there's any other way to be." From margdean at erols.com Sat Oct 6 19:49:02 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:49:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gay Character References: <9pnn6o+2mr5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BBF602E.8E3E9C37@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27246 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Cindy wrote: > > The most she could probably do is have Harry just "wonder" about > > some character's orientation. But I have a hard time (plot-wise) > > seeing how Harry can muse about this and have it in some way be > > relevant to the upcoming fight against Voldemort. > > One young man is captured as hostage by the Dark Side and another > young man is most frantically determined to rescue him, and Harry > wonders why they're so attached to each other. Why should he wonder about it? Harry himself was pretty frantic about Ron during the Triwizard Tournament. I refuse to believe that any close friendship has to be sexual in nature. --Margaret Dean From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 6 21:22:45 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Same sex relationships/children's expressions In-Reply-To: <9pnolv+lsn6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011006212245.79482.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27247 --- heidit at netbox.com wrote: > Now, this does not mean that Ron is implying Percy > is gay, or that Mr > Crouch is, or that they're in a nonbusiness > relationship in any way. > But the last sentence shows, IMHO, that in the > wizarding universe in > which Ron lives, there are same-gender > relationships. I think people have read entirely too much into this statement. I know that when I was younger (and even now), my friends and I would often say, "Oh (blank) likes being around (blank) so much, why don't they just get married!" This statement could be applied equally to any kind of relationship. I recall saying the exact same thing about how much my friend liked my dog. That doesn't mean I had any conception of bestiality, or was implying ANY kind of possible romantic situation. It was just an expression, a way to tease them about how much they liked something. I'm not saying that same-sex relathionships DON'T exist in the HP world, or that Ron doesn't know of and accept such relationships. But I think inferring that from this one little comment is overkill. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 00:11:25 2001 From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 00:11:25 -0000 Subject: I hope no one objects but I would like to know if anyone... In-Reply-To: <9pnolv+lsn6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9po6jd+c8n0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27248 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite wrote: > > I somehow don't think that would even occur to her. > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote: > But it already has, sort of. > And no, I am not speaking of subtext here. But if m/m relationships > never crossed her mind in any way, she wouldn't've had ron say, "I > don't reckon he'd come home if Dad didn't make him. He's obsessed. > Just don't get him onto the subject of his boss. According to Mr. > Crouch ... as I was saying to Mr. Crouch ... Mr. Crouch is of the > opinion ... Mr. Crouch was telling me ... They'll be announcing their > engagement any day now." > > > Now, this does not mean that Ron is implying Percy is gay, or that Mr > Crouch is, or that they're in a nonbusiness relationship in any way. > But the last sentence shows, IMHO, that in the wizarding universe in > which Ron lives, there are same-gender relationships. > > If there weren't, the sentence wouldn't've occured to Ron. He > would've been like the people of Krikkit, who've never thought `We > are alone' simply because it has never occurred to them to think > that there's any other way to be." I think it is a bit of a stretch to read these statements as evidence that same-gender relationships exist in the wizarding world. By that logic, we could say that Lupin's decision to select Neville to take on the boggart is evidence that some sort of affirmative action exists in the wizarding world. For example, even though there is much racism based on skin color in the real world, JKR has never even mentioned skin-color prejudice in the wizarding world (although she has certainly dealt with prejudice against giants, etc.) It might exist at Hogwarts -- who knows? But until JKR tells us that it does, it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of time arguing that it does. It is tempting, I suppose, to impose our own politics and view of the world onto JKR's wizarding world. Based on what I've read, though, the wizarding world is firmly and entirely heterosexual. JKR has included numerous references to boys feeling amorous in the company of veela and witches, including Ginny's crush on Harry, Harry's crush on Cho, Ron's crush on Fleur, Ron noticing Rosmerta. (See quote below). So far, JKR hasn't done that with same sex relationships at all. When JKR tells us that Harry's stomach lurches when he looks at Neville, then we'll have something. Laura -- [The Three Broomsticks] was extremely crowded, noisy, warm, and smoky. A curvy sort of woman with a pretty face was serving a bunch of rowdy warlocks up at the bar. "That's Madam Rosmerta," said Ron. "I'll get the drinks, shall I?" he added, going slightly red. Prisoner of Azkaban, Ch. 10. From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 00:27:41 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 17:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: R/H evidence from L.M. Alcott! (was: Hermione as Heroine -- Krum/Harry/Hermione) In-Reply-To: <9pnivj+iq7p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011007002741.93902.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27249 --- Ebony wrote: > You must know that the majority of those polled in the camp Penny and > I reside in *still* haven't forgiven Miss Alcott for what she pulled > in the Little Women books. Don't tell me you wanted Jo to marry Laurie! LMA was quite right you know, it wouldn't have worked at all. On the other hand Professor Bhaer does rather come out of nowhere doesn't he? > --Ebony AKA AngieJ (whose shipping boggart is that we do indeed have > a LMA situation on our hands--Ginny as Amy--but then would Hermione > end up with Lupin? Ack! ;-)) There is nothing 'Ack' about ending up with Remus Lupin! in fact it's hard to see how a girl could do better. It seems generally agreed he is one of the most intelligent, mature, compassionate and wise characters in the series. Granted he's a bit old for Hermione but given the wizardly lifespan of two hundred or so years what's a twenty year age gap? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 00:37:34 2001 From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 00:37:34 -0000 Subject: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9plt3j+4g9u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9po84e+jqq3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27250 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bookraptor11 at y... wrote: > > Since we have seen no US wizards in HP, > Three African wizards sat in serious conversation, all of them > wearing long white robes and roasting what looked like a rabbit on a > bright purple fire, while a group of middle-aged American witches sat > gossiping happily beneath a spangled banner stretched between their > tents that read: THE SALEM WITCHES' INSTITUTE. > > - GoF, Chap. 7 Perhaps the word "see," as I used it, is imprecise. We do have that one sentence in one book. However, what it tells us about US witches is almost nothing. Same goes for the African wizards. Donna From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 00:46:05 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 17:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <9plm3f+t3dm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011007004605.49631.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27251 --- kristen at sanderson-web.com wrote: > In interviews, JKR has stated > "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's > stuff coming with > them that people might not expect." The most astonishing Dursley twist I can think of is if Dudley and Harry started becoming friends! JKR did say D's 'privileged existence' was over and 'that it wasn't too late for him'. Poor Dudley, thanks to his parents' permissiveness and indulgence he's overweight, unhealthy, unintelligent and unlikeable - all set up for a life of miserable failure. I'd like to see him reform for his own sake as well as Harry's. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Oct 7 01:02:59 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 21:02:59 -0400 Subject: Hatred of ancient Magic vs. HP Magic Message-ID: <20011006.210303.-376901.3.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27252 Disclaimer: This post will reflect the fact that I am an observant Jewess. If it irritates you, you can skip this post... Wow. With the Jewish holidays of Rosh HaShono, Yom Kippur and Sukkos upon me in rapid succession, and all the Sabbaths in between, I fell SERIOUSLY behind in digesting all my digests..... Since Sept. 18th, there were exactly eleven days in which I could use the computer, so you can imagine how far behind I fell... I finally did the obvious thing: On Friday I printed out over one hundred pages of HP emails from my computer and read it after my beauty nap today... It was quite entertaining, even more so than the canon books themselves! Which just got me thinking, last night as I was walking home from dinner at my parents', gazing up at the full moon. It's very fortunate that the HP wizards are not religious at all... I was just ruminating for a moment that suppose there ARE practicing Jews in the HP universe and suppose one of them was bitten by a werewolf??? This werewolf would for the rest of the life be missing out on half of the Jewish holidays... since Passover and Sukkos fall out every year in mid-lunar month, exactly at full moon. Can you imagine the head of a household being unable to lead the Passover Seder because he becomes a wolf every year on Passover? Which leads me to ask the following to werewolf-related questions: 1. How long does a werewolf remain in his state -- 24 hours? less? more? 2. Does a werewolf transform only upon SEEING the moon, or does it happen automatically on the eve of the full moon? Okay. With all of that out of the way, here's the crux of my post. With all of the anti-HP people getting their say, I find it a bit perplexing. I think those people are incredibly narrow-minded, no matter which religion they adhere to. Don't they get it??? The 'magic', 'witchcraft', and 'wizardry' that they are afraid of and condemn, all have to do with dark forces, with accessing Satanist forces. In fairy tales, folklore, and even Biblical sources, witches are all basically evil, save for the odd good witch. (I find that sorcery is usually associated with women, for some reason.) A Biblical sage whose name escapes me at the moment was ordered to kill all witches of his times, and they levitated themselves so that he had to destroy them from the ground while they floated above him. Witchcraft in biblical Hebrew (I don't know what it's called in linguistic Hebrew, I have not read the translated books) is called "kishuf" and a witch is called a "machsheifa". And today, "machshefa" is a very derogatory term used to label a mean and evil person. In the local nursing home I visit, some of the elderly embittered people even refer to some of the nurses as "machshefas", perceiving them as mean and evil, restricting their freedom and refusing to fulfill their needs at momentary notice.... As a matter of fact, there are certain segments of society in the Jewish world who prohibit magic tricks, magicians, and magical shows -- allowing them to take place ONLY if the magician in question makes it clear at the inception of his show that he is using sleight of hand and eye, and he is not using any supernatural strengths to accomplish any of his magic tricks, lest his audience get suspicious that he is using a form of 'kishuf', which involves invoking demonic, Satanic, devilish, or otherwise dark-worldly forces. So we can see that witchcraft, wizardry, and magic of that sort is basically considered suspicious and outlawed in many religious societies, including the Jewish part I belong to. On the other hand, however, a) THE HARRY POTTER UNIVERSE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SATANIC FORCES, b) THESE BOOKS ARE TOTALLY FICTITIOUS AND PURELY FOR PLEASURE READING. The spells, potions, and stories contained therein are purely for interesting and fun reading. I cannot imagine any person who is interested in studying up on witchcraft, using the canon books to learn the trade... I still want to come across a person who becomes negatively affected by what he reads in these cute, fun, and thought-provoking stories. I want to meet the first person who is capable of waving a wand, shouting MORSMORDE, and conjuring up the dark mark. I'd like to meet a person who can perform a simple WINGARDIUM LEVIOSA charm or transfigure a match into a needle. Not one person I know who reads this book will be able to perform even one hex or curse. (Although I WISH I could apparate and use floo powder... it would simplify a lot of my transportation woes...) The magic and witchcraft contained in all these books are not real! WHEN WILL THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST THE HP BOOKS GET IT??? If the religious factions are so concerned with the quality of literature our people read today, I suggest they review the racy and raunchy romance novels, murder mysteries, and other 'dark' reading material out there today, the actions of which lots more readers actually tend to copy in real-life, and outlaw THOSE. In my never-to-be-humble opinion, the portrayals of magical ability in the HP series is as innocent as you can get (save for Lord Voldemort's dark actions). While I am aware that many prominent rabbis are against the HP series, I disagree and this is my opinion. I wish all of the HP-bashers would see the light and realize that the type of witchcraft that is against their religion is totally different from the magic portrayed in the books. The incantations that are given to perform the spells have no connection to any of those scary dark forces they are afraid of. There is not one instance anywhere in the book where any teacher explains that accessing the magic puts them in touch with black supernatural forces. I hope I am making sense here and I hope I will not get a backlash from the Jewish listmembers for my views, or from the non-Jewish ones for mentioning my religion so many times in this post. (Robyn, I know you're gonna kill me, so email me off-list pleeze -- and put your wand back in the closet before you do, OK?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- MINDY Proud ListOwner of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishMusic, For JewishMusic Enthusiasts everywhere and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MiamiBoysChoir For Demented MiamiBoysChoir Fanatics like me ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From john at walton.vu Sun Oct 7 02:37:02 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 03:37:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hatred of ancient Magic vs. HP Magic In-Reply-To: <20011006.210303.-376901.3.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27253 Just a reminder in my Mod hat before I take it off -- Religion discussion, folks, is cool just as long as it pertains to Harry Potter. This includes questions like "Does HP encourage Witchcraft and Satanism?" "Do we look at the moral values of HP differently from our religious viewpoints?" "Does Dumbledore resemble an Aslan-esque Christ figure?" and my personal favorite, "Is Minerva McGonagall old enough to be the Roman Goddess Minerva?". Uncool discussion (which is banned) makes no reference to the HP books. [And don't even think about trying to make value judgements about religion. As the woman says, "Don't Go There". :D] I have tried to build a logical argument in this email as to why HP wizardry is neither Satanism or Paganism, Wicca or Witchcraft as modern Witches know it today. Mindy C.L. wrote: > The 'magic', 'witchcraft', and 'wizardry' that they are afraid of and > condemn, all have to do with dark forces, with accessing Satanist forces. I will just point out in a calm and rational way that Satanism does not equal Paganism, and neither of them equal HP magic. In no way does any major branch of Wicca or Paganism (hereafter "Pagans") involve Satanism. The words 'Wicca', 'Paganism' and 'Satanism' are different for a reason :D ::listens to jaws drop:: Okay, here's the deal from my point of view, from the fairly wide range of Pagan, Wiccan and Witchcraft books that, as a Wiccan Pagan, I've encountered. [Note: this is my point of view. Wicca, Witchcraft and Paganism are not unified religions, do not have Supreme Leaders, Chief Minions etc. and it is therefore possible that you may encounter exceptions to the very broad brushstrokes I paint below: I acknowledge this and point to similar discrepancies of view in other religions as well.] Firstly, Satan is a JudeoChristianIslamic concept. Not Pagan, no way, no how. The JudeoChristianIslamic Satan is too negative for many Pagans to worship/communicate with anyway (see point 3). Oh, and he doesn't appear anywhere in the HP world. Secondly, folks associate the pentagram, the five-pointed star (standing upright, with one point at the top and not two) with Satanism, calling it a Satanic symbol. Well, folks, with one point at the top it's no more a Satanic symbol than the Christian cross. Turn the pentagram (or the cross) upside down and *then* you have what Satanists use. Why? Because, for the majority of Pagans, the Aether or Spirit World is represented by the top point, above Earth, Fire, Water and Air. If you had two points at the top this would be kinda tricky :D None of these symbols appear in the HP world. Third, the vast majority of all magic worked by modern Witches, Wiccans and Pagans is not what non-Pagans consider "dark" or "black" magic. Why? The Wiccan (modern Witch) community and many Pagans believe in the laws of three-fold or Karmic return. What's this? Well, at its essence, if you do something Good then Goodness will return to you. If you do something Bad then Badness will return to you. Using the powers of the dark, hexing or cursing someone is therefore likely to bring similar spells back to you, and let me tell you, protective magic is a pain in the athame to work and maintain. (Plus, the ingredients *stink*!) No Wiccan or Pagan light or dark magic, spells, charms, curses or hexes appear in their HP equivalents (although I'd love to get my hands on a Leg-Locker hex for the next time I'm trying to get around the supermarket!) But wait! I hear you cry. Surely there are Dark Witches and Wizards about! Well, sure, Pagans acknowledge the existence of darkness and light as we acknowledge night and day, winter and summer, good and evil. They are necessary, equal parts of a whole. (The Chinese yin-yang symbol is a good visual idea of this, though is not a Pagan symbol.) This "two equal parts of a whole" concept doesn't come into HP at all. Pagans don't attribute good and evil to benign or malignant forces (like some Christians believe that All Evil Everywhere is the work of Satan), and certainly don't believe that Anything Bad That Happens is attributable to one being or group of beings. Many Pagans take the view that to know things that are good, you must know what evil looks like. This sense of self-reliance and self-responsibility *does* come into HP a little bit, as does the "to know good, you must know evil" view. Lastly, the vast majority of Wiccans abide by the Wiccan Rede (and many non-Wiccan Pagans have a similar version): "An it harm none, do what thou will". Basically, "If it doesn't harm anybody, do as you like". I cannot envisage that any religion can argue with those sentiments; however, I cannot find any reference to the Rede in the HP books. Okay, having pointed out what Paganism consists of, I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with Mindy -- the magic of HP has only MINISCULE similarities to Paganism -- we use broomsticks for ritually cleaning our altars, HP uses them for flying. HP's Divination is nothing like the common use of Tarot decks or Runes (Ancient Runes sounds more like a language than a foreseeing class). Wands are generally less favored than the athame (ritual knife). We do have familiars (animals in whose presence we work magic), but these are usually cats, and the HP characters rarely appear to have their pets when working spells. Basically, any similarities between HP Wizardry and Wicca, Witchcraft and Paganism are also similar to the caricature societal view of witches, with black cats, flying brooms, robes, cauldrons and wands. ::shrug:: If you're interested in researching this further, I'd suggest the excellent witchvox.net and .com, wicca.org and wicca.net. "The Spiral Dance" by Starhawk is an excellent introduction and is likely in your local library, possibly hidden in the Feminism section :D --John ____________________________________________ "Do not thump the book of G'Quon. It is disrespectful." -- G'Kar, Babylon 5 John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From sweet_brunette27 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 02:50:48 2001 From: sweet_brunette27 at hotmail.com (Christina Davis) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:50:48 -0400 Subject: Possible Weasley Death Eaters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27254 > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: <> I think you made many really valid points here and I agree that I don't want to see any Weasley make the switch, especially Ginny who I've developed quite the soft spot for. But if a Weasley should go over she's one of the few I can almost see it making sense for. IMHO the breakdown is: Arthur&Molly: Both seem completely devoted to the Ministry and their hatred of Lucius Malfoy and other Deatheaters would make it seemingly impossible for either to plausabily switch over. Bill & Charlie: My wildcards. We honestly don't know all that much about them to make any sort of judgement. On the surface they seem like good, law abiding people but both have spent a great deal of their adulthood away from the family and their lives, their friends and the world they live in is not something the reader has a heck of a lot of knowledge on. Percy: He wasn't someone I would orginally pick as a possible defector but I've been reading the posts about his lust for power with great interest and I have to admit they've swayed me. If he gets fustrated enough with Dumbledore's rule breaking and is approached by the right person in the right way then I can see the possibility of him being lured into Voldemort's camp Fred & George: The twins are the epitome of politicaly apathetic youth. They seem content to enjoy life and I think it would take something very major and very tramutic for them to be so stirred they'd leave their lifestyle behind. The only Weasleys I see less likely to become Death Eaters are their parents. Ron: Ron is an interesting case. He's headstrong, emotional and highly devoted and right now all of his energy is focused on helping Harry Potter bring down Voldemort and his minions. However Ron also has a high capacity for jealousy and an enormous inferioty complex and both of these make him vulnerable. As has been stated here his thoughts and plans tend towards the spontantous side of things and if caught in the wrong situation this could lead to trouble. Ginny: I've already stated my theory on Ginny but to recap I do see her as a possible defector. I don't want that to happen and I don't think being possessed by Tom Riddle makes her an immediate or obvious case but it does at least cause me to pause and think. It is true that Harry's connection with Voldemort through his scar has not stopped him from being Voldemort's arch enemy but I don't see why those two situations have to be the same. They certainly can be but it's not an absolute in my mind. In conclusion, I don't want any Weasley to become a Death Eater nor do I think it would happen but if JKR wanted to really surprise anyone I think the most (out of 9 "really stretching its") realistic would be Ginny, Percy or Ron (in that order). Christy http://www.thepiratequeen.net "I plan to make a diorama," said Draco solemnly. "No," said Lupin patiently, "not that kind of creativity." "But it'll be an evil diorama. And then Harry can destroy it." Lupin's voice held a warning tone. "Draco." -"Draco Veritas" by Cassandra Claire _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From sweet_brunette27 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 02:56:05 2001 From: sweet_brunette27 at hotmail.com (Christina Davis) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:56:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What about the Dursleys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27255 >--- kristen at sanderson-web.com wrote: > > In interviews, JKR has stated > > "The Dursleys are in the next book, and there's > > stuff coming with > > them that people might not expect." > > The most astonishing Dursley twist I can think of >is if Dudley and Harry started becoming friends! JKR >did say D's 'privileged existence' was over and 'that >it wasn't too late for him'. > Poor Dudley, thanks to his parents' permissiveness >and indulgence he's overweight, unhealthy, >unintelligent and unlikeable - all set up for a life >of miserable failure. I'd like to see him reform for >his own sake as well as Harry's. Depending on how much Molly told the Dursleys at the train station I think it would utterly cruel and heartless, even for them, to continue treating Harry the way they have, knowing what he's just gone through. I don't think any of them will ever be completly warm or loving but to treat a boy ,who's just confronted the monster who killed his parents and saw one of his classmates die, like a fifth class citizen is inhuman. I expect we'll see some degree, even if it's just a slight one, of civilness enter the Dursley household during Harry's summer vacation. Christy http://www.thepiratequeen.net "I plan to make a diorama," said Draco solemnly. "No," said Lupin patiently, "not that kind of creativity." "But it'll be an evil diorama. And then Harry can destroy it." Lupin's voice held a warning tone. "Draco." -"Draco Veritas" by Cassandra Claire _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From caliburncy at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 04:18:54 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 04:18:54 -0000 Subject: Different POVs In-Reply-To: <9pi531+5hcl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pol3e+ru8l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27256 I've been keeping up with reading messages, but been lacking time to post responses of late. Big apologies to the NUMEROUS people who have made excellent points that I would like to reply to. I will do what I can to respond to those in the future, though by then you may all wonder what on earth I am responding to. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Boy, I wish I understood the limits of an author's ability to move > credibly back and forth among various points of view and how JKR is > able to get away with this in GoF (and PS/SS also). Surely someone > must understand this. > > Luke? Amy? Anyone? It occurs to me that Cindy is developing quite a knack for how to make me write big essays on my personal interpretations of writing technique as specific to HP. I really need to be composing a unified response to all the Deus ex Machina replies (such good responses--what wonderful students Professor Luke has!) And above all, I need to get that Authorial Theory of Misinformation explained already. I feel particularly guilty for not having been able yet to respond to David's very nice kickstart on the subject (Sorry, David!). But those will have to wait, it seems, until after I take a quick crack at this. BTW, I apologize in advance when this veers off occasionally from HP examples (with some made-up examples instead), for the purpose of illustration. I also apologize for the rambling, non-brilliant nature of this post--I am lacking time to edit it for conciseness and clarity. Not that any of my posts ever truly are either of those, but they're moreso than this one is. In other words, this is not me at my best. It is me at the tired, "just get it done" phase. *** Okay, point of view (with a brief intro on a few narrator types that proved necessary): As with all things in creative writing, there are no set rules. There are some teachers who will create artificial rules for the sake of their less experienced students, but at the end of the day it is really just what works best. A good guideline, IMO, is to switch POV as little as possible and still be able to tell as powerful a story. Unnecessary switching is not "cool" or "avant-garde", it's confusing and purposeless. Of course, that doesn't mean you avoid switching altogether; it means that you let the story dictate the POV it needs. The Harry Potter books are written by a third-person, limited-omniscient narrator. It is worth pointing out, especially for any people that missed out on this discussion the first time, that "limited-omniscient" is a misleading term. I don't like it at all, but I didn't invent it. It is supposed to be a differentiation from an "omniscient" narrator. So first, I'll quickly explain that. An "omniscient" narrator does not really know everything, the meaning of the term is that the narrator is privy to the thoughts of any character he *chooses* to be (I say "he", by the way, despite the fact that in this case the narrator is usually a non-character). Of course, he may not choose to reveal everyone's thoughts all the time. The point is that there is freedom to do so. This type of narrator was quite popular, I believe, in 18th and/or 19th century literature. The downsides of it are two-fold: 1) It is somewhat confusing, because you can be given the thoughts of one person in one sentence and, immediately following, be given the view of another person. You are, effectively, bounced around from head to head and don't get much rest. 2) Because you don't get to stay in the head of a single character for an extended period of time, it is harder to feel particularly close to any of the characters. An example of this: Paul walked into his dorm room, letting his book bag slump off his shoulder at the doorway, and flopped heavily onto his bed. His roommate, Sam, turned to face him from his standard spot in front of the television, with a broad grin of greeting that was altogether too cheerful. "What's the matter?" said Sam, looking Paul up and down. Paul was frowning irritably and Sam thought he seemed rather ill-tempered. Paul muttered, "Nothing," and quickly grabbed a book to bury himself in. He hated those kinds of questions. This is confusing because in the first paragraph we get Paul's thoughts ("[Sam's grin] was altogether too cheerful"), in the second we shift to Sam's ("[Paul] seemed rather ill-tempered"), then we go back to Paul's ("He hated those kinds of questions"). We shift POV often, and therefore never have time to stay in someone's head long enough to identify with their predicament. So this type of narration is not as common as it once was, though it can still be used to good effect in certain types of stories (BTW, the above example I made up would *not* be an example of using it to good effect--one of the POVs is largely unnecessary and could be divined from the other: hence a certain "Duh!" factor to the thoughts they have). A "limited-omniscient" narrator means that the narrator is privy to the thoughts of one or a group of characters. Often just one, but that's not required. The line between "limited-omniscient" in the event of a group and full-out "omniscient" becomes a bit hazy as you can imagine. Which is another reason why I'm not fond of the terminology choices. I really think "limited-omniscient" with only one viewpoint character should get its own term. There is also such a thing as a (and I forget the real term) 'non-omniscient' third-person narrator; one that is totally cut off from anyone's thoughts. There are usually two ways this is used: 1) There is no strong "viewpoint character", more like a "viewpoint focus" where we follow certain events and the characters involved in them, but not any particular character. 2) There is a particular "viewpoint character", but from whatever motivation, the author doesn't want us to know their thoughts. Sometimes with this kind of narration, the narrator instead makes guesses like: Mary sat there for several minutes with a dopey grin on her face. Perhaps she was thinking of her mother who had just left, or perhaps she was thinking of the mysterious stranger that their conversation had turned toward. Note the "perhaps", the guessing. We don't actually get Mary's thoughts, but it's still quite possible that she is the viewpoint character tied to the narration, assuming that we stick with Mary for an extended period of time. Note also that this second use, where the narrator makes guesses is also less popular than it once was, because many critics consider it a kind of author intrusion: the narrator, despite being a non-character, is nevertheless not perfectly transparent. (There's also first-person narration type, of course, but everyone should be familiar with that and it's not relevant here. My point isn't to give an overview of narrator types, but only that part which is (however losely) relevant to point of view shifting in the HP novels.) *** Now here's the neat thing. Since all of the above are third-person, as long as it's not disorientating, the author can technically switch between those subcategories, even without a clear break like one would have at a chapter. Usually they won't, but they can. This ability should not be abused. Remember the guideline: switch POV as little as possible and still be able to tell as powerful a story. Take the Quidditch match in which Quirrel tries to curse Harry to fall off his broom. Was it necessary to switch away from Harry, our normal viewpoint character? Yes. There is no realistic way that JKR could have gotten away with Harry being thrown about by an out-of-control broomstick and avoiding being unsaddled and plunging to his death, but nevertheless simultaneously taking the time to watch below him as Hermione and Ron sneak in the stands over to where Snape is standing, knocking Quirrel over in the process, and setting fire to Snape's robes. Nope. Can't do it. So the Quidditch match is done like this instead: ******************** (all quotes from PS/SS Chap. 11, "Quidditch") By eleven o'clock the whole school seemed to be out in the stands around the Quidditch pitch. Many students had binoculars. The seats might be raised high in the air, but it was still difficut to see what was going on sometimes. -------------------- Notice we have left Harry's POV at the very start of the Quidditch match (Harry isn't there; we find out later that he is in the locker room getting ready) and begun with a POV that has no viewpoint character. Instead it has a "viewpoint focus": the audience waiting for the match. Think of this as a wide, establishing shot in cinematic terms. If you think about it, this is a subtle hint that we might deal with multiple POVs, because up until this point JKR has never done this sort of 'establishing shot', unless it was as Harry saw it, which in this case it isn't. In my opinion, the presence of this 'establishing shot' is one of the biggest things that helps to make this a smooth transition out of our usual place in Harry's POV. ******************** Ron and Hermione joined Neville, Seamus, and Dean the West Ham fan up in the top row. [...explanation of the group making the Potter for President banner...] -------------------- The 'camera' now zooms in to Ron and Hermione in particular. (The shift is subtle enough that, as with all the shifts in this scene, it doesn't warrant a line break or anything equally concrete.) Ron and Hermione are both, to a certain extent, our viewpoint characters for the moment--though it would be equally or more accurate to say that we simply have a narrower "viewpoint focus" centered around them, without either of them really being viewpoint characters. But we are not privy to their thoughts, so it's not as close a relationship as we normally have with Harry, and therefore, IMO, a less jarring or noticeable transition. If JKR had done this scene with a now omniscient narrator it would have seemed strange and out of place, because all of a sudden we would be privy to the thoughts of characters that we were never privy to before. That calls conscious attention to the shift. Conscious attention is generally BAD. The shift should be clear and understandable, but not blatantly noticeable. Hence, we have the temporarily non-omniscient narrator who doesn't give us the thoughts of Ron and Hermione, etc., or much more accurately, the narrator who continues to be limited-omniscient and only gives Harry's thoughts in those moments when we temporarily return to him as our viewpoint character. So in a way, we haven't transitioned at all, except that Harry is no longer our viewpoint character. The narrator's abilities are identical. ******************** Meanwhile, in the locker room, Harry and the rest of the team were changing into their scarlet Quidditch robes (Slytherin would be playing in green). [...Wood's speech...] Harry followed Fred and George out of the locker room and, hoping his knees weren't going to give way, walked onto the field to loud cheers. [...Madame Hooch talking...] Harry noticed that she seemed to be speaking particularly to the Slytherin Captain, Marcus Flint, a sixth year. [...mounting of the brooms...] -------------------- With a classic "meanwhile" transition, we return to Harry for a bit. It's interesting to note that the narrator is still allowed to give us Harry's thoughts during this time ("hoping his knees weren't going to give way", "Harry noticed that..."). This is, of course, highly logical, since there is no reason why we should not be allowed to get Harry's thoughts as usual. Like I said earlier, the entire Quidditch match doesn't really have a non-omniscient narrator, just the same old limited-omniscient narrator that only gives Harry's thoughts. So here's an interesting question--at what point do we transition away from Harry again? It's a little hazy, isn't it? In my opinion, it's with these two sentences: ******************** Fifteen brooms rose up high, high into the air. They were off. -------------------- Why those? Because it's kind of like another wide, establishing shot of sorts. Then after that we go to the commentary of the match by Lee Jordan (with Prof. McGonagall's interjections) which is clearly not from Harry's POV. You could argue that when this occurs, Jordan and McGonagall are our viewpoint characters. I don't think so, because the emphasis is on their dialogue, not them. Except for a quick 'close-up' shot when they are introduced ("The Weasley twins' friend, Lee Jordan, was doing the commentary for the match, closely watched by Professor McGonagall."), the reader is not supposed to be picturing them, but the match itself, as described by Jordan. So we have a "viewpoint focus" again, now of the match, rather than the stands like in our earlier case with Ron and Hermione. Speaking of Ron and Hermione, we see them again now, when Hagrid joins them in the stands. But there's no point in me detailing every little POV shift in the chapter from here out, because I wouldn't really say anthing insightful about it. The short of it is though that all this POV switching was necessary; and it works because it is subtle but not confusing, and it does not really break any of the limitations of the third person, limited-omniscient narrator we've had for the whole novel. *** So what about the first chapter of GOF? There we get Frank Bryce's thoughts, so aren't we breaking the limitations of the existing narrator then? Why does that work? Because it's a clean break (and there's no precedent to fulfill). But I'm getting ahead of myself. We actually don't start this from Frank Bryce's POV at all. We start it with a "viewpoint focus" rather than a viewpoint character. Actually, it's hardly a viewpoint focus at all, because it is not a scene really, but pure exposition. Exposition does not need a viewpoint. But we do have a kind of, sort of "viewpoint focus" of the village of Little Hangleton. And very shortly thereafter, we get a real, more specific viewpoint focus of the pub "The Hanged Man" and the conversation of it's occupants. Only after that do we shift to Frank Bryce. We use a line break to shift to him, because it's a rather major transition, especially as he's about to become our viewpoint character and we will be privy to his thoughts. So why can JKR do this, when all the rest of the time we only get Harry's? There's several reasons, the two most important of which I already mentioned when I was getting ahead of myself: First, this being the first chapter, there is technically no precedent to live up to. We haven't abandoned Harry's POV--we were never in it to begin with. This is really not a first chapter so much as a prologue, and it is exceedingly common for prologues to not have the same viewpoint character as the rest of the novel. Second, when we finally do join up with Harry it is done after a chapter break (except for the single sentence at the end, which is a transition and therefore is appropriate). Whenever you want to make a transition that would be otherwise jarring, you usually want a nice obvious break like this. This may sound like it is in contradiction to my comments on the Quidditch chapter of PS/SS. It's really not, because they are apples and oranges. The Quidditch chapter was a series of smooth, subtle POV shifts back and forth. This is a single, more drastic shift that is meant to be noticed. Like in other books you may have read which shifted POV from chapter to chapter, or at the very least with a very clear line break. Third, because we are not used to multiple POVs in the Harry Potter novels, JKR is even kind enough to give us a handy explanation, which is that Harry was dreaming the events of the first chapter. Notice that this is not a full explanation so much as an effective transition. Harry did NOT dream the entire events of the first chapter (i.e. the bar sequence) and he did NOT dream anything from Frank Bryce's perspective. He dreamt the latter events as a third party, disembodied observer. We know this because he could see Frank Bryce. Fourth, because she's not breaking any laws, it's a free country (or so I hear), and, well, IT WORKS. *** So, the new question: Could JKR have more POV shifts in future Harry Potter novels? You bet. She certainly doesn't have to either, but she can. Also, because she has set something of a precedent for herself by giving a credible explanation for how the first chapter of GOF can still be linked back to Harry's POV, it is a reasonable guess that she may continue in this vein: that any POV shifts we get will be explained through dream sequences or magical phenomenon. But she doesn't HAVE to do that either, not technically. Just because she wrote the novels so far pretty much entirely from Harry's POV, doesn't mean the whole series has to be that way. She could change to another viewpoint character temporarily, without any explanation required. I have seen some sagas that were in the initial novels all told with only one viewpoint character, and then in the last novel(s) suddenly switched viewpoint narrators for certain chapters. Besides obvious reasons of plot necessity, I expect some of this had to do with emphasizing the expanding, epic scope of the final novel(s). But Harry Potter may not go this route, I don't know. At the end of the day, this does have "Harry Potter" in the title of every book and I therefore suspect our excursions into other people's perspectives will be very limited. We shall see. -Luke From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 04:21:17 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 04:21:17 -0000 Subject: Lurker Jo - Squibs - Put-outer - d.e.m. - POV - Flint - Ron - USDOM Message-ID: <9pol7t+kllv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27257 dittany/custodienne wrote: > 1st: has anyone else wondered if JKR is not secretly lurking (Is > this a tautology?) to harvest ideas either to create wrinkles or to > iron them out? I think I would do so... She better not be. Keeping up with this list is a half-time job in itself. Jo, if you're reading this, please stop doing so and go finish OoP. See you when Book 7 is done, 'kay? Kelly wrote: > According to the testimonials & blurb, KwikSpell is marketed to people > who can *do* magic but not well (think Neville). I still say Squibs > canNOT do magic. Then why is Filch, a self-described Squib, interested in a Kwikspell course? Rowena wrote: > Personally I just put the 'puter-outer' down as a > cute gadget and Dumbledore obviously likes gadgets, Me too. There's lots of duplication in the Muggle world, why not in magic? You can do something with a wand *or* with a nifty little gadget. (I really want to know what the whirring silver thingies are for, too.) Rrishi wrote: > This entire episode hinges on one quality of phoenixes (phoenices??) > that Rowling is careful to stress: that they are highly faithful > pets. Thus, when Harry shows "exceptional loyalty" to Dumbledore > in the Chamber, the stage is set for Fawkes to turn up and help. > This, in my opinion, saves this episode from being a case of deus ex > machina, but barely. Just barely. I thought of something else that bails JKR out here. Dumbledore does drop his hint about help being available to those who ask, and Harry even knows it's a hint and wonders how to make use of it. So when he wishes for help in the Chamber ("'He's not as gone as you might think!' . . . . wishing rather than believing it to be true," 17), we've already been primed to know that Dumbledore, or his proxy, is ready to offer it. Cindy wrote: >So we move seamlessly from omnicient (I think), to Bryce's POV, to Harry's POV. A neat trick. Good point. > Boy, I wish I understood the limits of an author's ability to move > credibly back and forth among various points of view and how JKR is > able to get away with this in GoF (and PS/SS also). Surely someone > must understand this. I don't know--there aren't any hard-and-fast rules about it. I'm recalling a scene in Anna Karenina in which the POV suddenly shifts to the hunting dog's; you can do anything if there's good grounding for it, and if you write as well as Tolstoy. JKR might not be quite in that league, but she's very attentive to POV and switches when it makes sense for the narrative, not as a gimmick and not carelessly. Cindy's daughter pointed out: > "There!" said Pettigrew shrilly, POINTING AT RON with his maimed > hand. Yes, I think it's a Flint, but it seems like the typo variety, like the nonsensical double negative in "The Parting of the Ways." My Raincoast (=Canadian) edition, 6th printing, has "Hermione." What's your daughter's name? We'll send her a L.O.O.N. badge pronto. Children's memberships are free. Re: the McCoy/Ron parallel: yes yes yes, and they are both, if not my *favorite* members of their respective trios (how does one choose?), the ones who make me laugh the most. So there's Ron's special role in the Trio: he's the funny one. Obvious, but important. And if you need a reason why it's important to the plot and not just to the amusement of the readers, listen to Harry talking to Fred and George at the end of GoF. Edis wrote: >Surely Baton Rouge, Albany,... Salem would be Salem, Oregon presumably? Nope, Salem, Massachusetts. If we must put DOM depts. at state capitals, rest assured that Salem is quite close to Boston--an easy trip by Floo Powder . But capitals are located where they are through odd convolutions of Muggle history; they are frequently not the biggest city in the state, nor centrally located; they became the capitals because there was something convenient or politically expedient about them at the time they were founded (a lot have changed, BTW). The DOM could operate with the same sort of logic: Salem gets the DOM because it's the *magical* center of Massachusetts, never mind where the geographical center is or where the Muggles chose to put their statehouse. Edis, please tell me you don't know the 50 capitals by heart. We Americans are embarrassed enough by our own geographical ignorance without this kind of thing rubbing salt into our wounds. Amy Z who does know them, but lives here, for crying out loud ----------------------------------------- The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe. --Dr. Leonard McCoy, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home ----------------------------------------- From caliburncy at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 04:32:07 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 04:32:07 -0000 Subject: Different POVs In-Reply-To: <9pol3e+ru8l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pols7+b6qa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27258 After I just posted that rambling nonsense, with a sigh of relief that it was done and I could now go to bed, I chose to briefly skim it once more first. And though I was only paying about 20% attention, I of course already found something to argue with myself about over. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > Notice that this is not a full explanation so much as an effective > transition. Harry did NOT dream the entire events of the first > chapter (i.e. the bar sequence) and he did NOT dream anything from > Frank Bryce's perspective. He dreamt the latter events as a third > party, disembodied observer. We know this because he could see > Frank Bryce. Bravo, Luke, but the L.O.O.N. in you must protest . . . with . . . you . . . Gee, that sounds kind of mentally imblanced, doesn't it. Anyway, you could make a pretty solid case that: 1) Just because Harry doesn't remember the bar scene after he awoke doesn't mean he didn't dream it too, technically speaking. Though it is rather unlikely that he dreamt the preceding exposition in classic voice-over fashion. 2) The fact that he could see Frank Bryce *would* be in keeping with the third person narrator. More important is the fact that we have no evidence that he was "in Frank Bryce's head" in the way that we are, being privy to his thoughts. But again, the lack of evidence is technically not evidence to the contrary. Which is not to say my initial statement was necessarily wrong in conclusion (it really probably is more for the sake of transition than explanation), just untenable in proof. Good night. -Luke From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 05:15:29 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 01:15:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Percy (was: Possible Weasley Death Eaters) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27259 >From: "Christina Davis" > >Percy: He wasn't someone I would orginally pick as a possible defector >but I've been reading the posts about his lust for power with great >interest and I have to admit they've swayed me. If he gets fustrated >enough with Dumbledore's rule breaking and is approached by the right >person in the right way then I can see the possibility of him being lured >into Voldemort's camp As someone who rather likes Percy, I do wonder at how people jump to him being a choice to join Voldie's camp. There are always two instances people cite: 1)the scene where Percy is reading the "Prefects Who Gained Power: a study of Hogwarts Prefects and their later careers" book in COS and 2) the scene where Ron muses that Percy might join Voldie's camp in GOF. The first instance, I can see where people are coming from. But let me say that the title of the book isn't "Prefects Who Gained Power And Then Went On To Be Evil, Traitor Wizards". Power can be gained through perfectly acceptable means. Furthermore, it's a study of graduated Prefects and their later CAREERS. Are we surprised that Percy is looking towards his future? Certainly not, he's two years away from graduating from Hogwarts. Just because the word "power" is used doesn't mean that Percy is so power-hungry that he is willing to throw over family ties. Heck, I'd love to have power but that doesn't mean I would kill people or break rules to get it. The word "power" seems to have a bad rap... The second instance has more weight, IMO. Here's the scene: "Wonder if Percy knows all that stuff about Crouch?" Ron said as they walked up the drive to the castle. "But maybe he doesn't care...it'd probably just make him admire Crouch even more. Yeah, Percy loves rules. He'd just say Crouch was refusing to break them for his own son." "Percy would never throw any of his family to the dementors," said Hermione severely. "I don't know," said Ron. "If he thought we were standing in the way of his career...Percy's really ambitious, you know..." - GOF, Am Ed. pg 534 So we see Ron saying that Percy is ambitious and loves rules, perhaps to the obsession point. And since Ron is Percy's brother, we assume that it holds weight. After all, his own brother would know such things, would he? Maybe yes, maybe no. If you look through the books, Ron and Percy don't have the best relationship. In fact, Ron has scorn for Percy; he clearly doesn't hold him in the highest regard. In my opinion, this colors his view of Percy and it invalidates this scene a bit. I will concede that there is the possibility that Percy will join Voldemort's forces. However, I would also argue that EVERYONE in the Harry Potter world has the possibility to join Voldemort's forces. Is Percy more susceptible? I'm sure everyone has a different opinion. I happen to think that while Percy does love rules and is ambitious, it's not to the obsession point. We haven't seen any clear evidence that Percy is ambitious enough to gain power through ill-gotten means. Everything he has acheived is through fair means and hard work. As for following rules, well, what is wrong with following rules? A lot of the time, rules are there for very good reasons. Following rules blindly can be detrimental, agreed. But can you really believe that Percy would be so blind as to break the unspoken rule "Don't Become A Death Eater"? Ergh, this is way too long. Needless to say, I don't think Percy will become part of Voldemort's camp UNLESS he is tricked. And when he finds out he was tricked, he will do everything in his power to set things to rights. And I don't think it's any more possible for Percy to be tricked than for any other character in the Harry Potter universe. ~Amber (Who likes Percy more than just a little bit, can't you tell?) ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "I want never to have to stay in one place and never to have to move. I want total freedom and total irresponsibility and total dedication. I want everything and nothing, all at the same time. I know it doesn't make any sense, but this isn't sense, this is desire." - Piers Anthony, "Virtual Mode" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 05:28:10 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 05:28:10 -0000 Subject: Gay Characters In-Reply-To: <01a701c14e87$f80c6d40$174e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9pop5a+bo96@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27260 > ***** > "And how long have you known your girlfriend was Tinkerbell?" - Xander, Season 6, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Just wanted to commend you on your excellent choice of quote. Non-Buffy fans...you kinda have to have been there to get the big joke. :-) Re: Gay characters in HP -- sure they could be there, but that's another book for another time, no? Having a gay relationship is now so overdone in media it's nearly a cliche -- like a 'covering all of our bases' thing. Unless Harry's gay, which I very much doubt, I really don't think we'll be concerned with anyone in the Magiverse who may be -- or, at least, we won't be concerned with their *being* gay. I don't think JKR will even go there now -- it seems too much like an attention-grabber, and holds much danger of ruining the merit she means it to hold. If it's not a major part of plot, I just don't see it happening.... Also...I don't feel I know any of the minor characters well enough to speculate on their sexualities. (I know I know, hence the term "minor character". But still). later, m. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 7 05:38:52 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 05:38:52 -0000 Subject: Full Moon Werewolf (was: Hatred of ancient Magic vs. HP Magic In-Reply-To: <20011006.210303.-376901.3.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <9poppc+37l9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27261 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." wrote: > Which just got me thinking, last night as I was walking home from > dinner at my parents', gazing up at the full moon. It's fortunate > that the HP wizards are not religious at all... I keep thinking that SOME of them must be religious and observant... and with pretty much all the same religions that Muggles have, as Muggle-born witches and wizards wouldn't change their religion just because of studying at Hogwarts. > I was just ruminating for a moment that suppose there ARE > practicing Jews in the HP universe and suppose one of them was > bitten by a werewolf??? This werewolf would for the rest of the > life be missing out on half of the Jewish holidays... since > Passover and Sukkos fall out every year in mid-lunar month, exactly > at full moon. A Wiccan who became an HP werewolf would have much the same problem, as '[at least] once in the month shall ye gather, and better it be when the Moon is Full' ... > Can you imagine the head of a household being unable to lead the > Passover Seder because he becomes a wolf every year on Passover? COULD an HP werewolf BE the head of a household? With the amount of prejudice against werewolves depicted in PoA, if he wasn't married yet when bitten, no one would ever marry him after. We don't even know if the wizarding folk have a law against werewolves getting married! Presumably one's spouse becoming a werewolf would be considered proper grounds for divorce, as leprosy was at one time in some US states. Anyway, if the prejudice against werewolves keeps them from finding jobs (as Lupin said of himself), they wouldn't be able to support a family, and TO ME a person who is financially dependent on spouse, parent, or child is NOT the head of the household. > Which leads me to ask the following to werewolf-related questions: > 1. How long does a werewolf remain in his state -- 24 hours? less? > more? > 2. Does a werewolf transform only upon SEEING the moon, or does it > happen automatically on the eve of the full moon? JKR herself seems confused about the latter, because in the climactic scene Lupin transforms when outdoors he is struck by a ray of moonlight when the moon comes out from behind a cloud. Well, if he only transforms when he SEES (or is touched) by the moonlight, such that cloudiness is enough to block it, he wouldn't need to take Wolfsbane Potion in order to keep his mind and hide in his office as a tame wolf, because he would keep both his mind and his human form as long as he stayed indoors and hung blackout curtains on the windows. So people have asked JKR about that in some of the interviews and chats she did to publicize GoF, and she always replied that he hadn't transformed yet when he went into the Shrieking Shack because the moon hadn't risen yet, and he transformed later because the moon had risen. But if he transforms at moonrise, he should have transformed while IN the Shrieking Shack: the moon whose light struck him was high enough in the sky that it had risen a while before. "It rose while he was in the Shrieking Shack", I believe she said in one interview. From lake4fam at earthlink.net Sun Oct 7 05:50:07 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 05:50:07 -0000 Subject: Percy Message-ID: <9poqef+p6c2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27262 Percy absolutely will not go over to the Voldemort camp...knowingly. "Knowingly" is the key word. I do believe that his strict adherence to...OK, obsession with...following rules can be utilised in such a way as to maneuver him into serving V's ends, but he will have to be hoodwinked into it. He is clever, but not wise, smart but not savvy: these are the chinks in his armour. If Percy is to be subverted, that, IMO, is how it will happen. dittany/custodienne From ginnybear at edsamail.com.ph Sun Oct 7 05:36:15 2001 From: ginnybear at edsamail.com.ph (Ginnybear from Gryffindor) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:36:15 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flint? (has it been noticed yet?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27263 HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: at the end of GoF, at least in my edition, it says that since there is no longer a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, HR&H use those *free lessons* to go down and visit with Hagrid... but, the Third Task takes place on the last day of finals. Isn't the week after finals but before going home class free? M. *hoping she's the first to notice this, but is not holding her breath...* ---> Hi, M! Am a new member of this group and have been lurking for a while. But I noticed the points you tackled here, too. Exams end on the day of the third task. I assumed that after exams, there will be no more classes, since that's the way things work in my University. But later on in the chapter, it is also mentioned that the 3rd task will occur a week before the end of term, and R/H/H visit Hagrid during those "lesson free" days after the fake Moody was found out. My guess is that after exams, the students still have "classes". But they don't have lessons, they probably just do some evaluation and discuss the exams. But that's all just IMHO, and I'll defer to anyone in the group who actually knows how these things work. ___________________ :-) ginnybear __________________________________ www.edsamail.com From ginnybear at edsamail.com.ph Sun Oct 7 05:46:08 2001 From: ginnybear at edsamail.com.ph (Ginnybear from Gryffindor) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:46:08 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What kind of life would Barty Jr. have? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27264 HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: I think that Barty Sr. did Barty Jr. a major disservice by releasing him from prison. For the rest of Jr.'s life, he'd have to be in hiding in his dad's house under a cloak. What kind of life is that? It's almost as bad as Azkaban. It's torture. It's like being in solitary confinement for life. He could never go out in public, and he'd never live a normal life - no companionship, no marriage, no life. Or was Sr. planning to smuggle him out and ship him off overseas where he could begin life anew incognito? He'd rather have his beloved wife die in Azkaban and have the son he despised constantly under guard, pretending he didn't exist? *** The way I understood the story, Barty Sr. only went to Azkaban to free Jr. because his wife requested it, and she was about to die, so Sr. granted her last wish. It seems that Sr. loved his wife a whole lot more than his son. IMHO, Sr. also hated his son so much for turning to the Dark Side, that he didn't care if Jr. would be happy in his life after Azkaban, and imposed all those restrictions on him (the Cloak, Winky, the Imperius curse, etc.). And Sr. probably still lived in fear of Jr.'s being able to find his master again, thus the restrictions. What a difficult life for Barty Sr. as well... I don't think it paid, honestly. If I'd be Barty Jr. I don't think I'd want to live out the rest of my life hidden under a cloak in my father's house... I understand Azkaban is far worse, but is this a life? *** Jr. didn't have any choice, though. He was under the Imperius curse. __________________ :-) ginnybear __________________________________ www.edsamail.com From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Sun Oct 7 06:20:32 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 06:20:32 -0000 Subject: Musings about Eagle Owls Message-ID: <9pos7g+2qg2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27265 Hi, everybody, there is a question that has been bothering me for some time and I'd really like to hear your opinions about it: The first part is a mere result of my disinterest in ornithology and of not being an English native speaker: Is the eagle owl an owl species that really exists or has JKR made it up? The second part is a bit more interesting: The Malfoy family owns an eagle owl (we hear about that various times, it always brings Draco parcels with sweets from home). But then, this animal is mentioned twice in GoF and in very interesting points: 1) GoF, British paperback edition, p.468/469: " .Harry leaned on the window sill, looking out at the grounds, at the dark, rustling treetops of the Forbidden Forest, and the rippling sails of the Durmstrang ship. An eagle owl flew through the coil of smoke rising from Hagrid's chimney; it soared towards the castle, around the Owlery and out of sight." 2) same edition, p.500: "He was riding on the back of an eagle owl, soaring through the clear blue sky towards an old, ivy-covered house set high on a hillside. Harry had left the owl's back he was watching now, as it fluttered across the room, into a chair with its back to him there were two dark shapes on the floor beside the chair both of them were stirring One was a huge snake the other was a man a short, balding man, a man with watery eyes and a pointed nose he was wheezing and sobbing on the hearth-rug 'You are in luck, Wormtail,' said a cold, high-pitched voice from the depths of the chair in which the owl had landed. `You are very fortunate indeed. Your blunder has not ruined everything. He is dead.' " The first citation, IMO, must be the letter Moody/Crouch jr. gets from Pettigrew about Crouch sr. having escaped, it's at the beginning of the chapter "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" and Bart jr. tells about having received a letter ( p.598/599: "My master guessed that he was heading for Hogwarts. My father was going to tell Dumbledore everything, to confess. He was going to admit that he had smuggled me from Azkaban. My master sent me word of my father's escape. He told me to stop him at all costs.") And the second is the letter Moody/Crouch sends back to Voldemort to report that he has successfully got Crouch sr. out of the way. The Malfoys' owl and the one that carries letters back and forth between Voldemort and Moody/Crouch clearly can't be the same. So there are two of them and both belong to the most evil characters o the Potterverse. AFAIK, throughout the books, JKR never links an animal clearly to the good or the bad side, this would be the first time she did so. Animals are neutral (speaking only of animals, not of magical creatures!): Cats, rats, toads, dogs, owls don't have a sticker that says "good animal" or "bad animal", not even the spiders or the Giant Squid. So, should we pay attention and become suspicious of people owning an eagle owl in the following books? I really wonder . Please, tell me what you think of it! Susanne/pigwidgeon 37 From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 7 07:11:46 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 07:11:46 -0000 Subject: Musings about Eagle Owls In-Reply-To: <9pos7g+2qg2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pov7i+r6td@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27266 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Is the eagle owl an owl species that really exists or has JKR made > it up? http://www.owlpages.com/species/bubo/bubo/Default.htm Accordingn to The Owl Pages (a great resource for would-be wizards!), the Eagle Owl not only exists, it has the Linnaean name Bubo bubo. IIRC, bubo is Latin for 'owl', so that name suggests that it was thought of as the most authentic owl. Our (New World's) Great Horned Owl is a relative, Bubo virginianus. > The Malfoys' owl and the one that carries letters back and forth > between Voldemort and Moody/Crouch clearly can't be the same. So > there are two of them and both belong to the most evil charactersof > the Potterverse. Eagle Owls are the biggest and probably the strongest owls, so they are probably the best (can carry bigger packages, can fly farther, maybe can fly faster) and most expensive. I expect that owning one or more Eagle Owls is more connected with being rich than with being evil. From NicMitUK at aol.com Sun Oct 7 09:56:46 2001 From: NicMitUK at aol.com (Nick Mitchell) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 09:56:46 -0000 Subject: Maximise Message-ID: <9pp8su+ir5q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27267 Hi all Not sure if this list is the most appropriate for this... so sorry in advance mods if it's not. As many of you will know... The Times newspaper has today (Sunday 7th October 2001) published a special Harry Potter issue of their Sunday Times Magazine. I'm reading it now... sat here at work (don't tell the boss!). One thing that has grabbed my interest, though I'm only on the 4th page, is that Warner and AOL see Harry Potter as being the cornerstone of their company. Is this worrying? Probably not... as HP the Movie is going to make loads... unless they get it wrong. But, and sorry to the americans who like things americanised, David Heyman is quoted as saying "They want to maximise it, not to Americanise it", which is great, as with luck they will have stuck to the origional storyline as much as possible. We can but hope! Nick From vheggie at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 09:59:31 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 09:59:31 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Sunday Times Supplement - student no.s, hogwarts map, uniforms, [LONG] Message-ID: <9pp923+e7o9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27268 For those of you outside the UK (or those inside who ignore the Sunday Papers!) one of the UK's major broadsheet newspapers has published a 'Harry Potter 88-page special' this Sunday; the words aren't of much interest (it's the usual, hyperbole about the books, and bitching about how Steven Spielberg wanted to Americanize the whole thing etc), but there are some fantastic photos, and a Hogwarts map. I'm sure the leaky cauldron will cover this eventually, but I'm so excited about it, I thought I'd post it all now (so excuse the typos made in haste). Double Page Spread of the Letters at Privet Drive: Nothing new here, lots of chintz, we've seen much of the house before. One nice touch is Dudley, who's leapt into his mothers lap and has wrapped his arms around her neck in terror - he's already nearly as big as she is. Double page spread of the Great Hall on the Last Day: Student Numbers: This is a slightly clearer picture than I have seen before, and there are about 250 - 300 students pictured at the tables, although the text states that about 400 kids had to be provied with a uniform. Uniforms: Although the students do seem to wear uniforms most of the time, there are cloaks and pointed black hats for special occassions. It also looks like each house has it's own crest displayed on the uniforms, which makes identifying who's who a lot easier. As a really nice touch, the text states: "Out of school, they [the students] run about in traditional English children's wear circa 1950, of sweaters and corduroy trousers. There isn't a trainer or nike logo in sight." (p39) Details: The tables are piled high with food: bowls of fruit and roast chicken mostly, Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff and Gryffindor are on their feet, throwing their hats in the air, but Slytherin remain seated, looking very put out, The Gryffindor logo, gold on a red background, appear on large banners/tapestries which hang from the ceiling. Small picture of the Hogwarts Express: This is too dark to see anything new, but there is a small metallic sign reading "9 3/4 Hogwarts Express" Flitwicks Class: Flitwick stands on, and amongst a pile of books. Hermione levitates the feather. One significant point: According to the students' blazers this is a totally mixed class: two Slytherins (girls), four Gryffindors (1 girl, 3 boys), one Ravenclaw (girl), one Hufflepuff (girl), one unidentified (boy) (and probably a few out of shot). Forbidden Forest: Atmospheric shot of Draco, Harry and Fang. Fang's not particulary big, just the size of a large dog. My personal gripe with the picture is that the trees are pines, which althought they make a nice dark wood, aren't really indicative of an 'ancient woodland' - this lot have only been around for 30 - 50 years.... Quirrell: This is just a still shot from the trailer of Quirrell shouting "Troll". Chessgame: Ron sat on the back knight. It's very dim, dusty and dark. Diagon Alley: Much like the trailer shots. The buildings lean in at different angles, and the street is realitively narrow, and very busy. Harry in the Cupboard: Harry sleeps under a horrible paisly duvet. On a small shelf above him are a few possessions; what looks like a ball (or an apple), some models, maybe soldiers, a guard from Buckingham palace, with a guard hut. On the shelf above that is a small soft toy, possibly a dog, an electricity meter, a tatty wooden desk/letter set and miscelleneous jars and bottles. Shots of the Three, H/H/R plus biogs, etc. Costume Shots: Flitwick: Close up, on a pile of books, he's quite scarey looking actually. Few shots from the set, cameras etc. MAP OF HOGWARTS: Apparently this is drawn from the model of Hogwarts used on set, although I have some problems with it. As best as I can describe in words - imagine a clockface: >From 6 to 12 lies the black lake, curving round - at 6 is the Boat House, and a long path leads up the cliff side to the Castle itself. Hogwarts is, roughly, two squares, with large turrets on each square and connecting coridors. The Great Hall looks like an arm of the Houses of Parliament, and leads out from the left hand sqaure, perched above the Black Lake at about '9'. A large tower stands at the end of the Great Hall, connecting it to the main square, and we are told that this is where Dumbledore's office lies, as well as the marble staircase lines with portraits. Diagonally opposite this tower (on the same square) is the Gryffindor's tower, at about '11'. >From '12' to ~'2' reaches the Quidditch stadium, housed by a small wall. The Whomping Willow lies INSIDE the quidditch area, at about '2'. From 12 to about 4 (although mist makes it hard to see) lies the Forbidden Forest, curving round the grounds. Hagrid's hut lies at the very edge of the woods, at about '3'. Cast Photos: Harry: Harry is sat in a large window at the castle, Hedwig perches on a pile of books - this is going to be made into a poster for next week! McGonagall: She wears dark Emerald velvet-looking robes. Kabbalistic symbols are ont eh blackboard behind. The Dursleys: Vernon and Dudley grin for the camera, Dudley in his new school uniform (dark red-wine colour) whilst Petunia fusses over his appearance. Hagrid: Hagrid's fur jacket, apparently, is made of fake fur, cut into the shape of tiny, molesized pelts, shaved, and then stiched toegther, to make it look like moleskin. Draco, Crabbe and Goyle: The slytherin logo is ckear on their cloaks. They wear green and silver striped ties. Quirrell: From later shots, it's clear that Quirrell is sat in the Leaky Cauldron, although little can be made out from the photo. Snape: (sorry, can't talk about this photo, I've drooled all over it) Hootch: In her Quidditch gear, looking just like a really jolly hockey teacher... Dumbledore: Apparently it took 3 hours to fit that beard on to Richard Harris, and it had to be tied up with ribbons during their lunch break. Hagrid's Hut: We've seen this before, but it's made of stone, not wood... The Leaky Cauldron: Hagrid introduces Harry to Quirrall. the walls are pale plaster, with decorative inlay, pewter mugs hang from above the bar, and coloured bottles lie behind it. A very Dickensian wizard in a large top hat looks on eagerly, and behind him a grey haired wizard in a skull cap grins inanely. Phew! that's about it, I'll leave it to others to quote select passages from the text.... From vheggie at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 10:21:13 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 10:21:13 -0000 Subject: Musings about Eagle Owls & Movie In-Reply-To: <9pov7i+r6td@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ppaap+6s35@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27269 [snipped!] Eagle owls do, indeed, exist - and they are very impressive animals, standing about 3 or even 4 feet high, with huge orange eyes. I saw them once 'in the wild' in Greece, circling a hilltop, ruined castle at dusk, and it was an incredible sight; these animals are so huge, and so graceful - I'd really like to see a scene involving the flight of the owls around Hogwarts. According to the recent Sunday Times article (see other posts), the animal trainer said he was training barn, snowy, grey, eagle and tawny owls. From tabouli at unite.com.au Sun Oct 7 11:38:23 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:38:23 +1000 Subject: American musings, gay Karkarov Message-ID: <003501c14f29$b3ed2080$c591aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27270 Rowena: > I would guess the American Wizarding population rivals that of all Europe and is probably considerably less frowsty and medieval.< Ah, the US comes in for a bit of the ol' "New Nation with No Culture!" sneering! We Australians get that from Europeans (well, usually the English) all the time. I do think that the general level of interest in and knowledge of intellectual, political and "high" culture issues (art, literature, "classical" music, etc.) is higher in Europe, especially continental Europe, than it is in the US and Australia. Which is not to say that there *aren't* Americans and Australians who are into these things, it's just a much smaller percentage. As an illustration, I believe that in Italy, opera is considered part of popular culture and attended by the "masses", whereas in Australia this is the preserve of a small, educated elite. When researching my thesis, I read accounts of American exchange students going to Germany at 16 and getting asked for their opinion on US foreign policies by their fellow school students, who were appalled to realise that a lot of the American teenagers didn't even know what these policies were. Another German example: a German friend of mine watched Australia's Big Brother and was amazed to see that the main, and almost only topic of conversation seemed to be sex and relationships. In Germany, he told me, the Big Brother people discussed politics and literature! I was particularly amused and intrigued by this comment... Cindy: > In the U.S., there are unfortunately large numbers of people who are openly hostile to anything gay, and there are really huge numbers of people who are "tolerant", meaning they are willing to live and let live, but they don't want gay issues presented to them< Yes, I've observed this. Why do people think this is the case? Is it the Puritan influence? Is it the famed "Bible belt" I've heard about? Any thoughts from American listmembers, whatever their position on the subject? (OT if necessary) Heidi (re homosexual issues in HP) > > I somehow don't think that would even occur to her. > > But it already has, sort of. > And no, I am not speaking of subtext here. But if m/m relationships > never crossed her mind in any way, she wouldn't've had ron say, "(...) > He's obsessed. Just don't get him onto the subject of his boss. According to Mr. Crouch ... as I was saying to Mr. Crouch ... Mr. Crouch is of the opinion ... Mr. Crouch was telling me ... They'll be announcing their engagement any day now."< Ahh yes, a good opportunity to re-raise an issue I mentioned a while ago... which is that there's a much more likely gay candidate than Percy in GoF. Ron was just giving his own sarcastic opinion of Percy, but we have the limited omniscient narrator (? not sure I'm using this term correctly, but I'm sure Luke or someone will correct me if not) on our side if we look at Karkarov. OK, so his extreme attentiveness to Krum's needs could initially be attributed to prize student pampering, but Karkarov's behaviour at the Ball is definitely worth examining closely. Ron, as JKR makes pretty clear, has feelings for Hermione, and jealousy is plain in his expression as he watches Krum with her at the Ball. However, note that "Karkarov" wears exactly the *same* expression as he watches the couple! OK, so without the Ron comparison this could be put down to suspicion of the rival school's students, but... As I mentioned before, I reckon Karkarov turned to the Dark Side in a desperate attempt to find some acceptance after persecution from the conservative elements in Russian society (or wherever: can anyone identify the origin of the name Karkarov?), only to flee when he realised they were even more prejudiced and twisted to seek haven as headmaster of Durmstrang, where he could ogle young male Quidditch players in peace... Tabouli [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 14:23:36 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 07:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Fleeting look of triumph on Dumbledore's face at end of GoF In-Reply-To: <9pmcna+j718@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011007142336.76245.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27271 Sorry, first of all, getting back at this one a day later, between work, classes and regular life, and rereading HP over and over again... I just thought of something... Since Vol couldn't touch HP bc of Lily's love for him, using HP's blood could possible even hurt Vol since the magic of Lily's love is still within HP. So maybe in Wormtail's idea of using any other wizard would be better, may just be right... am I really saying Wormtail could be smarter than Vol... no, just thinking on a different level. Plus, Dumbledore, being such an advanced wizard must have thought of this. Now, to tell you the truth... I maybe wrong (which is fine with me) I guess I'm just waiting, very unpatientally for the next book... please hurry) Laura, lost dazed and confused... sorry just worked really late last night and I just got up... :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 15:56:22 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 08:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Not many U.S. Wizards In-Reply-To: <9po84e+jqq3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011007155622.69100.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27272 --- bookraptor11 at yahoo.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bookraptor11 at y... > wrote: > > > Since we have seen no US wizards in HP, > > > Three African wizards sat in serious conversation, > all of them > > wearing long white robes and roasting what looked > like a rabbit on > a > > bright purple fire, while a group of middle-aged > American witches > sat > > gossiping happily beneath a spangled banner > stretched between their > > tents that read: THE SALEM WITCHES' INSTITUTE. > > > > - GoF, Chap. 7 > > Perhaps the word "see," as I used it, is imprecise. > We do have that > one sentence in one book. However, what it tells us > about US witches > is almost nothing. Same goes for the African > wizards. Well, we see that there is some sort of Witches organization headquartered at Salem, (I'm assuming this is Salem Massachussetts (sic?)) and that American witches like to show their colors so to speak, in fact they seem to be the only ones aside from the two competing national teams who display any kind of national insignia. What I want to know is is it the 'star spangled banner', ie the stars and stripes, with the words 'Salem Witches Institute' impressed upon it. Or a simple banner decorated with red, white and blue stars? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From mindyatime at juno.com Sun Oct 7 16:21:25 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:21:25 -0400 Subject: Magic Gadgets Message-ID: <20011007.124032.-451021.6.mindyatime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27273 Amy Z wrote: "Me too. There's lots of duplication in the Muggle world, why not in magic? You can do something with a wand *or* with a nifty little gadget. (I really want to know what the whirring silver thingies are for, too.)" I think those whirring silver thingies are basically Dumbledores version of Intercoms, Closed Circuit TV's, and other communication devices -- that must be why he always seems to know where everyone is, what is happening, and what he's supposed to do. He DOES have certain supernatural powers that other wizards don't -- maybe some of those advanced gadgets are even inventions of his which enable him to know, see, hear, and think things which others can't. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 16:52:27 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 16:52:27 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Sunday Times - More than 5 boys in Gryffindor??? Message-ID: <9pq18b+4rpk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27274 I know you could see this in the trailer - but still, no one commented on it that I can rememember - in a picture of Professor Flitwick's class (only Gryffindor, right?) there is- -Harry -Ron -Hermione -A black boy (Dean) -3 other girls -3 other boys (Neville, Seamus and ?) You can only see about 2/3rds of the class as well. Overall the Sunday Times thing is very good - I've only just started reading it, but that jumped out at me. Includes lots of photos - including a nice one of the whole school (you can even pick out Draco, Crabbe and Goyle) from it. I also found the following quote rather ironic:- "In some circles, Harry Potter is like the television show Buffy the Vampire Slayer - an ironically wacky aspect of teenage culture rather than merely a children's book" We do get a lot of fans of both (including me), don't we? Jon From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 16:55:04 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 16:55:04 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Ignore previous post Message-ID: <9pq1d8+m2v1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27275 On looking at the other post on the same subject it seems that it is a mixed class. (Trust me not to look at the blazers). Which only leaves me more confused than ever. Jon From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 17:07:37 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 10:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Full Moon Werewolf (was: Hatred of ancient Magic vs. HP Magic In-Reply-To: <9poppc+37l9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011007170737.76609.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27276 --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > JKR herself seems confused about the latter, because > in the climactic > scene Lupin transforms when outdoors he is struck by > a ray of > moonlight when the moon comes out from behind a > cloud. Well, if he > only transforms when he SEES (or is touched) by the > moonlight, such > that cloudiness is enough to block it, he wouldn't > need to take > Wolfsbane Potion in order to keep his mind and hide > in his office as > a tame wolf, because he would keep both his mind and > his human form > as long as he stayed indoors and hung blackout > curtains on the > windows. It seems to me likely that these anamolies are the direct result of regular use of the wolfsbane potion. Not only does it permit the werewolf to retain his human intelligence, if taken at the right phase of the moon, but regular imbibbing confers and certain resistance to the transforming effects of the moon - it is possible this side effect has not yet been recognized. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 7 17:38:27 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:38:27 -0000 Subject: More Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pq3uj+f1qa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27277 Amber wrote: > As someone who rather likes Percy, I do wonder at how people jump to him > being a choice to join Voldie's camp. > Needless to say, I don't think Percy will become > part of Voldemort's camp UNLESS he is tricked. And when he finds out he was > tricked, he will do everything in his power to set things to rights. And I > don't think it's any more possible for Percy to be tricked than for any > other character in the Harry Potter universe. > All good points, Amber. But I don't think Percy will be tricked into helping Voldemort. He's too smart for that. I think it is more likely that Percy will get into trouble by doing the "right" thing as he sees it. I believe that there are going to be some serious consequences for Arthur Weasley and Dumbledore for stirring up trouble at MoM as described at the end of GoF. If Percy learns that his dad is covertly undermining the things Fudge wants to do (or not do), Percy would have a decision to make. Assist his dad in rule-breaking, or be a good, loyal employee and tip off the boss. So Percy might mention Arthur's activities to Fudge not because Percy wishes to help Voldemort, but out of a misplaced sense of loyalty. Also possible is that Percy might tip off Fudge to Dumbledore's activities without knowledge that his dad is involved too, thereby inadvertently getting Arthur into trouble. Although I suspect Percy likes Dumbledore, Percy is quite likely to think that there is a rigid heirarchy governing who has the authority to handle particular issues. I can see Percy believing that MoM ought to be in charge of handling Voldemort, and Dumbledore is wrong to step out of his role as headmaster of a school. Also, I am a little worried that Mr. Weasley might find himself doing some time in Azkaban. There was a mention in PoA: [Fred and George discuss how the dementors make them feel.] "You didn't pass out, though, did you?" said Harry in a low voice. "Forget it, Harry," said George bracingly. "Dad had to go out to Azkaban one time, remember, Fred? And he said it was the worst place he'd ever been, he came back all weak and shaking . . . " This dialogue seems unnecessary to establish the effect Dementors have on wizards, as we've already seen that, and Lupin explains the whole thing later. It looks like a big ol' clue to me. Anyway, although I'm sure Percy would never deliberately do anything to send his Dad to Azkaban, perhaps he is the means by which Mr. Weasley winds up in Azkaban again if Percy misjudges the "office politics" at MoM. Cindy From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 17:47:37 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:47:37 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Scans Message-ID: <9pq4fp+fe32@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27278 To make up for my previous error - I've done some scans for you all. First the Hogwarts map at http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Hogwarts1.jpg and http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Hogwarts2.jpg Draco, Goyle and Crabbe at http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Draco.jpg Snape at http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Snape.jpg Enjoy. (And yes, they're not brilliant quality... sorry) Jon From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 7 17:59:54 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:59:54 -0000 Subject: gay Karkarov In-Reply-To: <003501c14f29$b3ed2080$c591aecb@price> Message-ID: <9pq56q+kamv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27279 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Ahh yes, a good opportunity to re-raise an issue I mentioned a while ago... which is that there's a much more likely gay candidate than Percy in GoF. Ron was just giving his own sarcastic opinion of Percy, but we have the limited omniscient narrator (? not sure I'm using this term correctly, but I'm sure Luke or someone will correct me if not) on our side if we look at Karkarov. OK, so his extreme attentiveness to Krum's needs could initially be attributed to prize student pampering, but Karkarov's behaviour at the Ball is definitely worth examining closely. Ron, as JKR makes pretty clear, has feelings for Hermione, and jealousy is plain in his expression as he watches Krum with her at the Ball. However, note that "Karkarov" wears exactly the *same* expression as he watches the couple! OK, so without the Ron comparison this could be put down to suspicion of the rival school's students, but... > > As I mentioned before, I reckon Karkarov turned to the Dark Side in a desperate attempt to find some acceptance after persecution from the conservative elements in Russian society (or wherever: can anyone identify the origin of the name Karkarov?), only to flee when he realised they were even more prejudiced and twisted to seek haven as headmaster of Durmstrang, where he could ogle young male Quidditch players in peace... > OK, now that is a total hoot! This never occurred to me. That Karkarov is interesting, isn't he? But I read him as more of Krum's agent/manager than as a romantic interest. The fact that he wears ostentatious furs helped me develop a rather unfortunate "pimp- like" mental image of him. He wants to make sure Krum has everything he needs (wine) when they arrive at Hogwarts. He goes nuts when Krum is stunned. His eyes don't smile. He is lazy (Krum tells us that the students did the work of steering the ship). To the extent Karkarov is unhappy that Krum is interested in Hermione, he could just be worried that dating will undermine Krum's resolve to win the Tournament. Cindy (really starting to hope we see more of Karkarov in the future than the bottom of his shoes when Voldemort kills him) From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 18:10:27 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:10:27 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: More scans Message-ID: <9pq5qj+vkv4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27280 Yes, I will stop posting messages in twos after this... Three more (and the last worthwhile IMO) scans - not particularly interesting (and the Flitwick one is terrible as it goes through the middle of the double page) but still... Nice picture of the Dursleys- http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Dursleys.jpg Flitwick's class (the mixed one)- http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Flitwicks-class.jpg Hagrid http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Hagrid.jpg I'd definitely recommend picking the thing up, if you're interested in the subject - only slight annoyance was when they called Rowling a he - not particularly good sign that. Jon From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 7 18:17:41 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:17:41 -0000 Subject: Different POVs In-Reply-To: <9pol3e+ru8l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pq685+b7p7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27281 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > I've been keeping up with reading messages, but been lacking time to > post responses of late. Big apologies to the NUMEROUS people who have > made excellent points that I would like to reply to. I will do what I > can to respond to those in the future, though by then you may all > wonder what on earth I am responding to. > > > It occurs to me that Cindy is developing quite a knack for how to make > me write big essays on my personal interpretations of writing > technique as specific to HP. Luke, this is terrific. I have to take a minute (or perhaps a few days) to digest this before I'd have any hope of responding. In the meantime, I pledge not tempt you write any more big, interesting, thought-provoking, well-reasoned, sleep-depriving essays about creative writing techniques in HP. Well, unless I think of something really important to ask, anyway. Besides, we've covered all conceivable creative writing techniques and issues at this point, haven't we? Thanks. Cindy (who has questions about pacing, but will keep them to herself) From klhurt at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 18:22:20 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Percy + Ennervate + Vernon a Squib? + Squibs + Wizards & Religion In-Reply-To: <9pkaee+a5lc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011007182220.6291.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27282 --- b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de wrote: >How could Percy mean trouble? I could >imagine him giving away information to >the ministry and thus inadvertedly to >Deatheater moles within the ministry >that will hurt our friends. This is what Bagman did. Even though Percy is much smarter than Bagman, I could see him making the same mistake. Percy assumes anyone who works for the MoM is, by definition, a good guy. --- Lucy Austin wrote: >I think I have found a Flint! [snip] >Sure enough, the English word >'enervated' which this must be related >to, means to deprive of vigour and >vitality. I noticed that before and assumed it was a typo for 'innervate' which, while not the perfect choice, is much closer to what she meant. These definitions are from dictionary.com: enervate: To weaken or destroy the strength or vitality of innervate: To stimulate (a nerve, muscle, or body part) to action Innerve: To give nervous energy or power to; to give increased energy, force, or courage to; to invigorate; to stimulate. --- Janelle Lile wrote: >Well, hey, why not Vernon? Perhaps he >met Petunia at a support group meeting >for Muggle Families of Hogwarts >Students when they were younger. Vernon cannot be a Squib because, in Chap. 1 of SS/PS, he did not know what the word 'Muggle' meant. I wrote: >>According to the testimonials & >>blurb, KwikSpell is marketed to >>people who can *do* magic but not >>well (think Neville). I still say >>Squibs canNOT do magic. To which Amy Z replied: >Then why is Filch, a self-described >Squib, interested in a Kwikspell >course? And I respond: Desperation & desire. He *wants* to do magic but can't. People who can't draw at all take art classes hoping to learn but if they don't have talent it doesn't help them. Same with sports or dancing or.... --- "Mindy C.L." wrote: >It's fortunate that the HP wizards are >not religious at all... Two words: Fat Friar. Proof positive that, in the Potterverse, one can be Christian AND a wizard. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 18:57:45 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] American musings, gay Karkarov In-Reply-To: <003501c14f29$b3ed2080$c591aecb@price> Message-ID: <20011007185745.11599.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27283 --- Tabouli wrote: > Rowena: > > I would guess the American Wizarding > population rivals that of all Europe and is probably > considerably less frowsty and medieval.< > > Ah, the US comes in for a bit of the ol' "New Nation > with No Culture!" sneering! We Australians get that > from Europeans (well, usually the English) all the > time. I bet you do. I guess people from tired old countries have to feel superior about *something* ;) I do think that the general level of interest > in and knowledge of intellectual, political and > "high" culture issues (art, literature, "classical" > music, etc.) is higher in Europe, especially > continental Europe, than it is in the US and > Australia. There are after all all kind and levels of 'culture' a low interest in 'high' culture is not equivalent to 'no' culture. I would add that much of currently fashionable artistic, literary and intellectual thought can best be described as 'vapid'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 18:59:30 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:59:30 -0000 Subject: Rules was: (Re: More Percy (was: Possible Weasley Death Eaters)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pq8mi+ak3d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27284 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > > >From: "Christina Davis" > > As someone who rather likes Percy, I do wonder at how people jump to him > being a choice to join Voldie's camp. > power-hungry > that he is willing to throw over family ties. Heck, I'd love to have power > but that doesn't mean I would kill people or break rules to get it. The word > "power" seems to have a bad rap... > > The second instance has more weight, IMO. Here's the scene: > > "Wonder if Percy knows all that stuff about Crouch?" Ron said as they walked > up the drive to the castle. "But maybe he doesn't care...it'd probably just > make him admire Crouch even more. Yeah, Percy loves rules. He'd just say > Crouch was refusing to break them for his own son." > > "Percy would never throw any of his family to the dementors," said Hermione > severely. > > "I don't know," said Ron. "If he thought we were standing in the way of his > career...Percy's really ambitious, you know..." > - GOF, Am Ed. pg 534 > > So we see Ron saying that Percy is ambitious and loves rules, perhaps to the > obsession point. And since Ron is Percy's brother, we assume that it holds > weight. After all, his own brother would know such things, would he? > > Maybe yes, maybe no. If you look through the books, Ron and Percy don't have > the best relationship. In fact, Ron has scorn for Percy; he clearly doesn't > hold him in the highest regard. In my opinion, this colors his view of Percy > and it invalidates this scene a bit. > > I happen to think that while Percy does love rules and is ambitious, it's > not to the obsession point. We haven't seen any clear evidence that Percy is > ambitious enough to gain power through ill-gotten means. Everything he has > acheived is through fair means and hard work. As for following rules, well, > what is wrong with following rules? Well, if you follow rules just because they're rules (As Percy does) it's simply irresponsible, because it shifts the responsibility to the rules or whom ever made them... And for Ron's opinion... Well, suppose there was an event in their childhood, when Percy was 14-15. Older Weasleys were gone - (Supposedly Molly worked then) - and Percy was left to "babysit" the youngers. (Two of whom weren't even at Hogwarts yet). Somehow, a Boggart gets into their household, scaring Fred, George, Ron and Ginny. Because minors aren't allowed to do magic, Percy owls the parents instead of dealing with the boggart himself. While the Owl (Errol?) is on his way Ginny and Ron are terrified. Add Fred and George to that... Well, I'd say their attitudes are well reasoned. Fred and George have a GOOD reason to complain about the rule against minors magicking (not just their pranks) after the next year (Harry's first). Fred and George learn the riddiculus spell is the thing against Boggarts - with a good laughter. (Is that why they are fond of pranks?) Molly quit her job to protect her children, leaving less money for the Weasleys... Only because Percy refused to break a rule. From caesarius at email.ro Sun Oct 7 19:16:16 2001 From: caesarius at email.ro (Cezar Tabarcea) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 22:16:16 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What would it take to really surprise you? Message-ID: <200110071916.f97JGG911329@zerg.codec.ro> No: HPFGUIDX 27285 Hi to all, I've just recently joined the group, i find all messages really interesting and challenging, but, hey - don't u think that if JKR reads all this, she is likely to get scared that all surprises have already been guessed by some fan or another? in fact, do u think that she keeps track of these fan- groups and discussions? i haven't read any interviews with her, and i ask myself whether she relies on such suggestions or not. now to the new DADA teacher - i have a suggestion for volume 5; as i see it, the DADA professors tend to get more and more serious - we had the weakling impostor, Quirell, the famous impostor, Lockhart, the tormented but brave and well-intentioned Lupin (my favourite, i hope he returns) and the dark Auror, quite a fanatic in my opinion; now that the fight has begun, i can almost picture Dumbledore himself occupying this position, because things get really serious from now on...anyway, i don't think that we'll have a new, unexpected character in this position - certainly not Arabella Figg, or someone unknown and unrenowned. But what if Snape himself, former Death-Eater(so, very experienced indeed with the Dark Arts), will finally get the position he wanted so badly - it could be an opportunity for him even to sacrifice himself for the good cause - could he be the "special fan" of Harry that dies...? Cesar ______________________________________________________________________ Do you want a free e-mail for life ? Get it at http://www.email.ro/ From Alyeskakc at aol.com Sun Oct 7 19:35:06 2001 From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 19:35:06 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Premiere Magazine Cover Message-ID: <9pqapa+aqf9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27286 Hi~ Just to give you guys a heads up if you haven't seen it yet. The November issue of Premiere has Harry and Hedwig on the cover and some nice pictures inside. The pics inculde Hagrid, The Trio, Dumbledoreand McGonagall, The Dursely's, and a shot form the broom flying lesson. There's also a nice three or so page accompaning article with little side bar boxes containing facts and figures. So here's one interesting little tidbit from one of those side bars. It says that Hogwarts is home to 400 students not the close to 1000 that we've be discussing in the past. Just a little food for thought. :) Enjoy, Kristin who can't wait for Nov. 16 From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 19:49:11 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Scans In-Reply-To: <9pq4fp+fe32@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011007194911.4850.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27287 --- jonathandupont at hotmail.com wrote: > To make up for my previous error - I've done some > scans for you all. > > First the Hogwarts map at > > http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Hogwarts1.jpg > and > http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Hogwarts2.jpg I think I can live with this image of Hogwarts castle, lots of towers. The great tower containing the marble staircase must be the original castle keep. My guess would be the lower ward is the older section, obviously built for defense, and the upper ward was added in later, more settled times for it is obviously less defensible. The Architecture btw is pure high gothic, very late medieval, so I doubt we're looking at the original buildings put up by the Founding Foursome. > Snape at > http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Snape.jpg M'hm! Yes I can definitely see Snape's female fans drooling over this picture...I wonder, does Mr. Rickman know what he's letting himself in for? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From joyw at gwu.edu Sun Oct 7 19:55:54 2001 From: joyw at gwu.edu (- Joy -) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 15:55:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Scans References: <20011007194911.4850.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006d01c14f6a$13480820$7c44a480@cp124541b> No: HPFGUIDX 27288 Just a reminder... you can read the articles from the Times and see all of the pictures at http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/magazine/. Sorry for the short post, but I just wanted to clue people in before you all worked so hard to scan your print copies. Enjoy! ~Joy~ http://diluted.org/joy From vheggie at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 20:14:25 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 20:14:25 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Scans In-Reply-To: <006d01c14f6a$13480820$7c44a480@cp124541b> Message-ID: <9pqd31+addu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27289 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., - Joy - wrote: > Just a reminder... you can read the articles from the Times and see all of > the pictures at http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/magazine/. Sorry for the > short post, but I just wanted to clue people in before you all worked so > hard to scan your print copies. Enjoy! > > ~Joy~ > http://diluted.org/joy Another short post - the pictures online are not the same as those in the article; it's missing all the individuals shots of Flitwick, Hagrid, Snape (...) etc, and several of the other photos; some are also edited - e.g. the shot of the Great Hall which is smaller than in print. I'd still like to see a full set online... From john at walton.vu Sun Oct 7 20:29:10 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 21:29:10 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Sunday Times Supplement -- John's reactions In-Reply-To: <9pp923+e7o9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27290 > For those of you outside the UK (or those inside who ignore the > Sunday Papers!) one of the UK's major broadsheet newspapers has > published a 'Harry Potter 88-page special' this Sunday; the words > aren't of much interest (it's the usual, hyperbole about the books, > and bitching about how Steven Spielberg wanted to Americanize the > whole thing etc), but there are some fantastic photos, and a Hogwarts > map. Actually, it was reasonably well-written and I got much more of an impression that JKR was more highly involved than I had before. BTW, American and non-UK listies -- my local Barnes & Noble in the NY 'burbs carries the Sunday Times -- yours might as well! Call them up and see :D > Double Page Spread of the Letters at Privet Drive: > Nothing new here, lots of chintz, we've seen much of the house > before. One nice touch is Dudley, who's leapt into his mothers lap > and has wrapped his arms around her neck in terror - he's already > nearly as big as she is. I FAR prefer this to the Vanity Fair shot. > Double page spread of the Great Hall on the Last Day: > > Student Numbers: > This is a slightly clearer picture than I have seen before, and > there are about 250 - 300 students pictured at the tables, although > the text states that about 400 kids had to be provied with a uniform. Don't forget that it said that the main kids (and, we assume, some of the bit players like Neville and Gred&Forge) had seconds, thirds and even fourths because of the UK's child labor laws. There are really only 250-300 kids in the picture. Totally. > Flitwicks Class: > Flitwick stands on, and amongst a pile of books. Hermione > levitates the feather. One significant point: According to the > students' blazers this is a totally mixed class: two Slytherins > (girls), four Gryffindors (1 girl, 3 boys), one Ravenclaw (girl), one > Hufflepuff (girl), one unidentified (boy) (and probably a few out of > shot). I had to laugh at the Sunday Murdoch...er...Times which said "Professor Flitwick...demonstrates levitation to the first-year students" when it is clearly Hermione who has the raised wand and is looking superior. Indeed, this is a shot from the first trailer of her working Wingardium Leviosa. > Forbidden Forest: > Atmospheric shot of Draco, Harry and Fang. Fang's not particulary > big, just the size of a large dog. My personal gripe with the > picture is that the trees are pines, which althought they make a nice > dark wood, aren't really indicative of an 'ancient woodland' - this > lot have only been around for 30 - 50 years.... Pines are, however, very representative of the geographical location of Hogwarts. I think it looks really spiffy -- scary as hell! > Chessgame: > Ron sat on the back knight. It's very dim, dusty and dark. And is similar to but worse than the Vanity Fair picture of Ron On Knight. > Diagon Alley: > Much like the trailer shots. The buildings lean in at different > angles, and the street is realitively narrow, and very busy. We do have slightly more perspective into Diagon Alley. This shot must be taken after their visit to Eeylops since a snowy owl is flying ahead of Harry and Hagrid, so is possibly a shot back towards the Leaky Cauldron. > Harry in the Cupboard: > Harry sleeps under a horrible paisly duvet. On a small shelf > above him are a few possessions; what looks like a ball (or an > apple), some models, maybe soldiers, a guard from Buckingham palace, > with a guard hut. It is. I own some similar soldiers, which are small and made of lead, painted very nicely. > On the shelf above that is a small soft toy, > possibly a dog, an electricity meter, a tatty wooden desk/letter set > and miscelleneous jars and bottles. This shot is taken from inside the cupboard from Harry's feet, compared with the Annie Leibovitz shot in VF. > Shots of the Three, H/H/R plus biogs, etc. Harry looking very self-confident and possibly arrogant, Hermione looking bookish, and Ron looking far better-dressed than he should. For one, his trousers are a proper length, and he's wearing Doc Marten shoes. These are about fifty pounds a pair...doesn't quite ring with the Weasleys. He's also looking to smart and coiffed. Then again, it *is* an obvious photo shoot. > Costume Shots: > Flitwick: Close up, on a pile of books, he's quite scarey looking > actually. Nah...he's really cute and sweet, with loads of floating feathers around. His wand is also very different from the ones we saw in the trailers -- much thinner and with something that looks a bit Celtic Knot-ty just above where he's holding it. > MAP OF HOGWARTS: > > Apparently this is drawn from the model of Hogwarts used on set, > although I have some problems with it. > As best as I can describe in words - imagine a clockface: The map is really rather dire, I have to say. Sure, it looks cool, but the captions are WAY off -- the Marble Staircase is marked as being inside the tallet steeplesque tower instead of starting at ground level. Moreover, there's no lawn in front of what must therefore be the main entrance. URGH. > Cast Photos: > > Harry: Harry is sat in a large window at the castle, Hedwig perches > on a pile of books - this is going to be made into a poster for next > week! If anybody in the USA or elsewhere would like a copy of this very wonderful picture, I would be happy to either mail it (shouldn't be too expensive) from the UK or carry it back with me. More info in separate email. > McGonagall: She wears dark Emerald velvet-looking robes. Kabbalistic > symbols are ont eh blackboard behind. I am once again very glad that Maggie Smith is playing McGonagall -- she's PERFECT :D > The Dursleys: Vernon and Dudley grin for the camera, Dudley in his > new school uniform (dark red-wine colour) whilst Petunia fusses over > his appearance. This is a much better (more Dursleyesque) picture than the Annie Leibovitz one from VF. I am very disappointed at the un-orangeness of Dudders' knickerbockers. > Hagrid: Hagrid's fur jacket, apparently, is made of fake fur, cut > into the shape of tiny, molesized pelts, shaved, and then stiched > toegther, to make it look like moleskin. And looks amazing, as do his enormous clodhopper boots :D And Fang is soooo cute! > Draco, Crabbe and Goyle: The slytherin logo is ckear on their > cloaks. They wear green and silver striped ties. Oh yes, Tom Felton is going to be a major league hottie when he grows up. Although his collar isn't starched enough for Draco :D > Snape: (sorry, can't talk about this photo, I've drooled all over it) Oh, Rickers...Amanda, send me your address and I will post you a copy of this picture. (from the second paper I bought to cut the pictures from) It's just fantastic :D He's wearing this smashing long cloak which from the lighting used is almost indistinguishable from his high-necked Victorian suit. Bravo! Bravo! > Hooch: In her Quidditch gear, looking just like a really jolly > hockey teacher... Again, this is in the Quidditch Referee robes that we saw in the VF picture. Yay for Zoe Wanamaker! > Dumbledore: Apparently it took 3 hours to fit that beard on to > Richard Harris, and it had to be tied up with ribbons during their > lunch break. Grr...the Dumbledore picture is too small! But at least he doesn't look as tired as he did in the VF pics. > Hagrid's Hut: We've seen this before, but it's made of stone, not > wood... Yeah -- isn't that weird? What is WITH that? There's even a line from Hermione which says "Hagrid, you live in a *wooden* house!" > The Leaky Cauldron: Hagrid introduces Harry to Quirrell. the walls > are pale plaster, with decorative inlay, pewter mugs hang from above > the bar, and coloured bottles lie behind it. A very Dickensian > wizard in a large top hat looks on eagerly, and behind him a grey > haired wizard in a skull cap grins inanely. I think this is likely to be Daedalus Diggle :D Anyway. It was a super section of the magazine and I shall definitely be putting some of the piccies into my HP collage. ::grin:: --John ____________________________________________ "The Universe is not only Queerer than we suppose, it is Queerer than we can suppose." - JBS Haldane, 'Possible Worlds' John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From szabinasnape at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 20:46:09 2001 From: szabinasnape at yahoo.com (Szabina Snape) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hatred of ancient Magic vs. HP Magic In-Reply-To: <20011006.210303.-376901.3.mindyatime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20011007204609.1401.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27291 --- "Mindy C.L." wrote: > 1. How long does a werewolf remain in his state -- > 24 hours? less? more? Szabina: >From everything I've read a werewolf remains in wolf form only while the moon is up. If this weren't the case Lupin would never be seen the morning after a full moon. > 2. Does a werewolf transform only upon SEEING the > moon, or does it happen > automatically on the eve of the full moon? Szabina: The transformation occurs AUTOMATICALLY when a full moon rises. Otherwise, avoiding transformation would be ridiculously easy--stay inside and cover the windows. > The magic and witchcraft > contained in all > these books are not real! WHEN WILL THESE PEOPLE WHO > ARE AGAINST THE HP > BOOKS GET IT??? Szabina: When everyone in the world learns to use their mind and look beneath the facade of the easy answer. ===== >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 20:55:01 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 20:55:01 -0000 Subject: What would it take to really surprise you? In-Reply-To: <9pivru+b13@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pqff5+u74g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27292 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kristen at s... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christina Davis" > wrote: > > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > >- That a Weasley will go over to Voldemort. I don't think I > could wrap my mind around that one. Not even Percy. > > >- Denise > > > > I have a feeling, or maybe wish is the better word, that > > something big is planned for Ginny. I'd hate for the series to > > end with her characterization never going beyond that of a Harry > > Potter fangirl. > > > > Christy > > http://www.thepiratequeen.net Hi Christy! I agree; I'd like to see Ginny take more of a "front & center" role. But I'd like it to be more of a H/G ship.... ;) > However, I think it would have to be Percy that would be > questionable. Once in Diagon Alley, they found him reading a book > called "Prefects Who Gained Power" (remember that Quirrell said in > SS that Voldemort showed him that there was no good and evil - only > power and those too weak to seek it - sorry don't have direct > quote). Also, in GoF, Ron makes many references to Percy's > ambition. He was concerned that Percy would turn in Fred and > George if they were doing something illegal. Also, at the end of > GoF, Dumbledore is setting up some major rule breaking at the MoM > and we all know how much Percy likes rules :). > Kristen - also a relatively new poster You've got a good point, Kristen. As much as that may disrupt my pet happy ending (OBHWF), Percy *does* like his rules. And he practically worships Fudge. And Fudge chose rules and regulations over working with Dumbledore at the end of GoF. I believe that Fudge has set himself up; Voldemort could use Fudge's bureaucratic ways to lead him into evil. And Percy could blindly follow Fudge rather than help his friends and family. Or as you mention, Percy could be swayed by power during these uncertain times. I'd forgotten about Percy and "Prefects Who Gained Power". That has given me more to think about. And there is always the hope that Percy will ultimately be redeemed.... Well spotted! - Denise From blpurdom at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 20:49:28 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 20:49:28 -0000 Subject: I hope no one objects but I would like to know if anyone... In-Reply-To: <9po6jd+c8n0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pqf4o+t532@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27293 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite wrote: > > > I somehow don't think that would even occur to her. > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote: [snip] > > Just don't get him onto the subject of his boss. According to > > Mr. Crouch ... as I was saying to Mr. Crouch ... Mr. Crouch is of > > the opinion ... Mr. Crouch was telling me ... They'll be > > announcing their engagement any day now." > > > > Now, this does not mean that Ron is implying Percy is gay, or > > that Mr Crouch is, or that they're in a nonbusiness relationship > > in any way. But the last sentence shows, IMHO, that in the > > wizarding universe in which Ron lives, there are same-gender > > relationships. I would like to think that, but in this case, I think it's merely a figure of speech, like children saying, "I love chocolate cake," and hearing the reply, "Why don't you marry it then?" > I think it is a bit of a stretch to read these statements as > evidence that same-gender relationships exist in the wizarding > world. [snip] It is tempting, I suppose, to impose our own politics > and view of the world onto JKR's wizarding world. Based on what > I've read, though, the wizarding world is firmly and entirely > heterosexual. JKR has included numerous references to boys feeling > amorous in the company of veela and witches, including Ginny's > crush on Harry, Harry's crush on Cho, Ron's crush on Fleur, Ron > noticing Rosmerta. (See quote below). So far, JKR hasn't done > that with same sex relationships at all. When JKR tells us that > Harry's stomach lurches when he looks at Neville, then we'll have > something. Even though I think Ron's statement was just a figure of speech, this above argument is quite a leap of logic, IMO. MOST literature for adults, and 99.99% of books for children (exempting titles like "Heather Has Two Mommies" and similar books) do not mention same- gender relationships, so are we to assume from THAT practice that those of us who "think" these relationships exist are merely delusional? Most books for children also do not mention sex and reproduction, so are we to infer from that that we all were delivered to our parents by storks? If we believe old sitcoms and movies, did all married couples really sleep in twin beds prior to 1970? I doubt that JKR will be addressing issues concerning sexual minorities because a) it might distract from the main storyline and b) she already has the opportunity to address issues of this sort using Squibs as "metophorical sexual minorities," if you will. The only possible way I could see her inserting anything about this into the HP books would be in an oblique way that would be open to one interpretation by adults and another by children (like Smithers' sexuality on "The Simpsons," which sails right over my--and most-- kids heads). Possible scenario: Someone who is involved in an adult same-gender relationship could find themselves being blackmailed by a Death Eater or Voldemort himself, thus feeling compelled to do certain Dark deeds to avoid exposure. The reason for this person being blackmailed could be couched in terms that children would find somewhat mysterious or open to interpretation in other ways, while adults reading would be able to say, "Ooooh. He's--" or "She's---" and fill in the blank. But, even having said that, I would be very, very surprised if JKR ever did this. --Barb From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 7 21:32:53 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 21:32:53 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Scans + Better copy of Hogwarts Map; Re: Different POVs In-Reply-To: <9pqd31+addu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pqhm5+f2lj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27294 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., vheggie at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., - Joy - wrote: > > Just a reminder... you can read the articles from the Times and see > all of > > the pictures at http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/magazine/. Sorry for > the > > short post, but I just wanted to clue people in before you all > worked so > > hard to scan your print copies. Enjoy! > > > > ~Joy~ > > http://diluted.org/joy > > Another short post - the pictures online are not the same as those in > the article; it's missing all the individuals shots of Flitwick, > Hagrid, Snape (...) etc, and several of the other photos; some are > also edited - e.g. the shot of the Great Hall which is smaller than > in print. I'd still like to see a full set online... The magazine pictures are certainly better - Draco isn't in the online Great Hall picture for instance. It's also a pain having to save them from online(they've disabled right clicking) - you'll have to search through your Temporary Internet Files folder and copy and paste them to somewhere else (not that I didn't do just that...). Here's a link to a saveable complete and 'direct feed' copy of the map (note - no captions - I actually prefer it like this)- http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Hogwarts.jpg Also a copy of a very nice picture of Harry looking out of a window (again, from the site, but awkward to get to - I really don't know why they bother with precautions) - yes, it is more interesting than it sounds:- http://www.btinternet.com/~daviddupont/Harry_window.gif On the different POVs subject - can I just say that I think that the first chapter of GOF was the worst in the book, and that I honestly think including different POVs in future books would be a BIG mistake. The strength of the series is its easy readability - and an awful lot of that hinges on the single viewpoint (as well as its almost complete lack of decription, but thats another matter). Its also why IMO HP is a childrens book - but I don't care, I like the series this way. Jon From john at walton.vu Sun Oct 7 21:39:30 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 22:39:30 +0100 Subject: MOVIE: Sunday Times to produce Harry Poster - want one? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27295 If anyone in the USA or elsewhere in the world would like the HP poster from next week's Sunday Times, I'm happy to buy up an armload of Sunday Times and post the relevant posters off, in envelopes reinforced by cardboard. The picture is the one of Harry sitting next to the window and can be seen at http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/stimazmaz02017.html?99 9 (you may need to fiddle with that URL -- at any rate, it's the first HP link at http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/magazine/ -- "On the Set of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone") I am assuming that it will come folded within the paper; it should thus be relatively easy to fit into an A4 (normal paper) size envelope. So, if you would like one, please send me either 5 US dollars or 3 UK pounds to cover purchase, postage and envelopes (cash is okay, no checks please...it is, after all, only a few bucks) by airmail and I will send your poster off via airmail on Monday or Tuesday of next week. For my address, email me at johnATwaltonDOTvu (replace AT with @ and DOT with .). I have decided that the maximum number I'm actually able to mail is 25, so First Come First Served. :D --John From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 21:53:08 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 21:53:08 -0000 Subject: Possible Weasley Death Eaters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pqis4+f32k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27296 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Christina Davis" wrote: > IMHO the breakdown is: > > > Bill & Charlie: My wildcards. We honestly don't know all that much > about them to make any sort of judgement. On the surface they seem > like good, law abiding people but both have spent a great deal of > their adulthood away from the family and their lives, their friends > and the world they live in is not something the reader has a heck > of a lot of knowledge on. > I'm very interested in reading more about Charlie. Both Professor McGonagall and Oliver Wood have said that Charlie was an outstanding Quidditch player, good enough to play for England. Yet Charlie chose to work with Dragons. What was his motivation? Perhaps going to Hogwarts during The Voldemort Years influenced that choice? Or perhaps I'm just blowing things out of proportion and he just likes animals. Hagrid *has* said Charlie has a way with creatures (or something to that effect - don't have all the books with me, sorry). As you have said, we know very little about B&C. Charlie seems to be the quietest Weasley; we've seen him wrangling dragons in GoF and he "rescued" Norbert (with help from his friends) in PS/SS. But we haven't heard a word about what he does with them on a day-to-day basis. We know that Mr. Weasley is the Head of the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office, Bill is a charm breaker for Gringotts, and we know almost *too much* about what Percy does at the MoM. What *is* Charlie doing with those dragons (visions of Pern dance thorough her head)? And is he up to anything that falls outside of his job description? (Switching gears furiously) Regarding Ginny; as much as I'd love to see a H/G ship, there is always a chance that Harry may turn her down. And hell hath no fury....Could she join Voldemort after being spurned? - Denise From vderark at bccs.org Sun Oct 7 22:20:30 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 22:20:30 -0000 Subject: notes on the Hogwarts map Message-ID: <9pqkfe+v7s5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27297 I have been studying the map of Hogwarts which appeared in the Sunday Times. I've also done a lot of research through the books about where things are located etc. Here's a few comments: 1 - The labels are sad. The Dark Forest? Black Lake? Please. 2 - The caption is incorrect. This is NOT the only existing guide to the building and its grounds. I have already written to the Sunday Times to point out this error. 3 - The Great Hall simply cannot be located where they have it, although it looks terrific there. In CS, Harry and Ron crash their car into the Whomping Willow, then drag their suitcases from the wreck toward the castle. While near the front doors, Ron peers into the Hall through windows. Take a close look at the arrangement on this map and you'll see that there is no way that this scenario could be played out with the Great Hall way out over that cliff like that. 4 - I like the courtyard. It is mentioned in SS/PS (that's where Snape takes Harry's copy of Quidditch Through the Ages away from him.) 5 - There are no directions given on the map, but we do know that the Forbidden Forest is to the west of the castle from the comment in PA that Harry and Hermione see the sun setting behind it as they leave the Front Hall. I know it's just bias, but I tend to think of the right side of a map as the east, so the Forest seems to be in the wrong place. But I should talk, since I put it exactly the same on my map. And I was wrong too. 6 - The Quidditch pitch is specifically stated as being on the opposite side of the castle from the Forbidden Forest. It doesn't appear that way on this map. 7 - The designers of the movie asked for and received a sketch map of various thing from JKR. I think it's possible that this map is created at least in part from those sketches. In that case, we would have to accept at least the overall arrangement seen in this map as canon. Of course, until such time as JKR herself says so, it won't be used in the Lexicon. 8 - I think I'm really going to love the look of this movie! Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon home of the Atlas of Hogwarts http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Mon Oct 8 00:06:48 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 00:06:48 -0000 Subject: Characteristic Moments Message-ID: <9pqqmo+kos9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27298 We all know why we like the characters we do. We understand their personalities (an example would be Hermione's speech to Harry at the end of PS/SS about friendship and bravery etc. We love Hermione because of that speech, we know what is really important to her.) I was thinking of other instances when the reader's depth of understanding or affection towards an already beloved character is strengthened. Just moments or small actions that strike one as being demonstrative of the character's personality core. For example, these are some minor moments that make me fonder of the following characters: Harry: One moment that really gets me is in PS/SS when Malfoy has put a curse on Neville and Harry gives his last Chocolate Frog to Neville and tells him he's worth twelve of Malfoy. Ron: I love his sense of humour (one of his greatest virtues IMO, though sadly the power of laughter is often underestimated). I was trying to decide which of his funny comments to choose, but the one time he really stands out without using wit is in GoF when Harry sends an owl to Sirius lying about his scar hurting him; Hermione tells him off for lying and Ron tells Hermione to "Drop it!" Hermione: Rita Skeeter asks Harry if Hagrid is a `father substitute.' "Hermione stood up very abruptly, her Butterbeer clutched in her hand as though it was a grenade. `You horrible woman,' she said, through gritted teeth, `you don't care, do you, anything for a story, and anyone will do, won't they?'" This is not the first time she has shown herself sensitive and ready to defend her friends from pain, including Neville. Hagrid: In PS/SS when he gives Harry the chocolate cake with the green icing saying "Happy Birthday Harry." I love Hagrid! Neville: From GoF: "Within a minute, however, Neville had moulted, and once his feathers had fallen off, he re-appeared looking entirely normal. He even joined in laughing." Fred and George: In PoA when they cheer Harry up so effectively. After his first encounter with a Dementor, they tell him how unpleasant they found the Dementors to be. "Sort of freeze your insides, don't they?" Sirius: At the end of GoF when Harry is telling Dumbledore and Sirius about what happened to him: "He looked around at Sirius, and saw that he had his face in his hands." What awful memories Harry's experience must bring back to Sirius. Lupin: I love the first impression of him: " a small battered case held together with a large quantity of neatly knotted string. The name `Professor R.J. Lupin' was stamped across one corner in peeling letters." He can't afford expensive items but he is painstakingly careful with the things he does own. Percy: I love him during the Second Task ? firstly when he tells Harry off for being late and then when he wades in to get Ron out of the lake. Snape: In CoS, when he finds out a student has been taken into the Chamber and he grips the chair very hard. McGonagall: Love her in all the Quidditch scenes, but especially when she is described following Malfoy's holding on to Harry's broom: "She was actually shaking her finger in Malfoy's direction, her hat had fallen off, and she too was shouting furiously." Dumbledore: From PS/SS ? "Albus Dumbledore had got to his feet. He was beaming at the students, his arms opened wide, as if nothing could have pleased him more than to see them all there." That's basic Dumbledore right there! This reminds me that one of JKR's fortes is characterization. You've got to admire the effort she puts into writing each and every word! It's another reason why I love these books so much: the author doesn't patronize us with the characters. She'll put in a little comment about what they've done, and leave us the choice of being affected by it, or ignoring it entirely. I wonder if this has some name in creative writing technique or not. I suspect it's harder than it looks. Any favourite moments (major or minor, anything that you found particularly effective) of these or other characters? - Hella From joym999 at aol.com Mon Oct 8 03:29:53 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 03:29:53 -0000 Subject: what JKR knows Message-ID: <9pr6jh+l62u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27299 There was an interesting quote in the London Times article, of director Chris Columbus talking about JKR: "Sometimes I would ask her something and she would say, 'You can't do that because of what happens in book six.' She hadn't written it yet and she wasn't going to tell us what it was, but she knew. And you could ask her any detail - the colour of a patch on a Quidditch robe, or the colour of light that comes from the end of a wand - and she knew it." Does that drive you nuts the way it drives me nuts? I want to know the colour of the patches on the Quidditch robe and the light that comes from the wand and what Harry has for breakfast every day and whether Lavender Brown has pimples and where Sirius Black was born and whether Madam Hooch is married and ALL THE OTHER LITTLE DETAILS that JKR has, apparently, already decided on. Maybe she'll tell us after she writes book 7, I hope. Wasn't there a rumor about JKR writing an HP encyclopedia after she finishes with book 7, or is that just wishful thinking? --Joywitch From joym999 at aol.com Mon Oct 8 03:33:52 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 03:33:52 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #15 Reminder Message-ID: <9pr6r0+947j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27300 Hey, everyone! Contest #15 is still running!! Isn't that great? You have a few more days to enter, so get busy! Here's the contest: Way back when, pigwidgeon37 said: ".. it is never made clear who nominates or elects the Minister of Magic." and Lyda Clunas speculated that "I'd imagine that there's some sort of board of Ministry officials or such, but who knows, perhaps it's a popular election. That would be interesting..." Interesting, indeed. Let's suppose there is an election and wizards and witches like Dumbledore, Fudge, Crouch, McGonagall, etc. had to run for office. What would their election campaigns be like? You tell us. Write a political slogan, campaign ad, or anything else campaign-related for a candidate for Minister of Magic. Your candidate can be a known HP character, or a character you make up. You can even run for Minister of Magic yourself. (Make the most of it...you're not likely to get another opportunity.) As an example, I suspect that if Gilderoy Lockhart were running for MoM, his campaign slogan would be something along the line of: "Vote for Lockhart -- The Only Wizard with a Smile Dazzling Enough to Defeat the Dark Lord!" Email your entry to me at HP4GUCon at a... or to the above address. (Make sure you save your entry, and send it a second time if you don't receive a response from me.) You've got a week or so. May the best wizard win. --Joywitch From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Oct 8 03:57:02 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 03:57:02 -0000 Subject: We Turn to Centaurs (filk) Message-ID: <9pr86e+5ffg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27301 We Turn to Centaurs (from PS/SS, Chap. 15) (To the tune of Return to Sender) Dedicated to Catherine THE SCENE: The Forbidden Forest. On the trail of an injured unicorn, HARRY encounters a terrifying foe and enigmatic friends HARRY Some fiend is out there in the forest We thought you should be warned It made a mad attempt to gore us After murdering a unicorn HARRY & HAGRID At such a moment We turn to centaurs They gaze at stars They view Venus They watch Mars They know the planets And their portents That's `cause they all bear a share of a thing we call horse sense FIRENZE I came across the youthful Potter He's clutching at his head It seems he was in some hot water After meeting the Undead FIRENZE, BANE & RONAN So take a moment.. To learn from centaurs Statements cryptic Foretell futures Apocalyptic BANE & RONAN As we feared, our friend has interfered with the planets upon their track But most of all, we are greatly appalled he rides humans upon his back FIRENZE, BANE & RONAN But let us warn you Unicorn killers Have naught to lose Just one suspect: You-Know-Whose! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Oct 8 04:07:42 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 06:07:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: Scans + Better copy of Hogwarts Map; Re: Different POVs In-Reply-To: <9pqhm5+f2lj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011008040742.75308.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27302 jonathandupont at hotmail.com ha scritto: Message-ID: <9ps8go+d6um@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27303 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: < What *is* Charlie doing with those dragons (visions of Pern dance thorough her head)? And is he up to anything that falls outside of his job description?> and: > (Switching gears furiously) Regarding Ginny; as much as I'd love to > see a H/G ship, there is always a chance that Harry may turn her > down. And hell hath no fury....Could she join Voldemort after being > spurned?> I don't know, but I just cannot see a Weasley *choosing* to go to the Dark Side. I feel that JKR has made a point of showing us that how we are raised directly affects the choices we make later in life. She lets us in on Voldemort's childhood, and how his father abandoned both him and mom and how mom died, leaving Voldie alone. We are also told of Barty Jr's younger days of being neglected by his father and not quite defended by his mother. I see no such situations in the Weasley family. Both Arthur and Molly show their children love and appear to be teaching them to know right from wrong. I'm not saying they are the perfect parents, but I'd be mighty surprised if even one of their children chose to be a DE for any reason, because there is no reason to stray from Dumbledore and from Harry's side. I also think people speculate about the Weasleys because their family is big - "well, there are so many of them; *one* of them has to go bad". I love what Cindy wrote about Percy and how he could unwittingly give information to the wrong people because he is so driven to do the right thing that he may not stop to think about his decisions. Ron's comment about how ambitious Percy is is very telling to me. All in all I have to say that the Weasleys are good people and will stay that way. Ginny may be haunted by her Tom Riddle possession and Ron may not be so successful fighting off the Imperius Curse, but like I said, I can't imagine a Weasley *choosing* to go to the Dark Side. I don't know that I'd even believe it if it happened. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************* From kidzero7 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 8 15:48:13 2001 From: kidzero7 at hotmail.com (kidzero7 at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:48:13 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Break-in: An inside job?! A defector?! Message-ID: <9pshrt+hh2g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27304 This post was inspired by the post about a Weasly possibly defecting. I think there is a chance it has already happened... Not sure if this is unanswered in the Harry Potter series: Did Professor Quirrell admit to breaking into Gringotts to steal the Stone? Or did everyone assume it was him? (though I do remember him being in Diagon Alley, near Gringotts. So who knows... He could have been waiting for the delivery of the stone...) The one thing that struck me was this: - Gringotts is maze-like to begin with. So even if you knew what chamber was holding the stone, it would be very difficult to navigate it's mazes and find it still. - Gringotts is very well protected by charms and creatures that even the very best wizard would have a difficult time handling. (Thus the papers reported a very powerful Dark Wizard must have been responsible) So what I propose is: What if the "cool" Bill Weasley is responsible for the would-be theft? - He works for Gringotts - He would be aware where the Stone was being stored - He would have an easier time navigating the tunnels - He would not be suspected because he works for them - He is a charm breaker capable of getting past Gringotts' traps (especially if he sets them up also) I don't have the books with me right now, but... - Where was Bill at the time of the break-in? - Can we totally back up his innocence? - Has he given us any reason to suspect him of defecting? Just some thoughts... From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon Oct 8 15:49:25 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:49:25 -0000 Subject: Online presence? In-Reply-To: <200110071916.f97JGG911329@zerg.codec.ro> Message-ID: <9pshu5+jsv4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27305 JKR has on record in some interviw that she does not follow the online discussions of the books. Life is too short was (I think) her point... If I was her I think I'd take the same view. However I think her *editors* should be scanning all this just to make sure that when the next Manuscripts are checked they get a good scan for possible loose ends and contradictions... Welcome aboard Cezar, by the way... Edis Cezar Tabarcea wrote: >don't u think that if JKR reads all this, she is likely to get scared that all surprises have already been guessed by some fan or another? in fact, do u think that she keeps track of these fan-groups and discussions? i haven't read any interviews with her, and i ask myself whether she relies on such suggestions or not. From mirzamblack at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 15:56:02 2001 From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:56:02 -0000 Subject: Is Dedalus Diggle important? (Re: Dedalus Diggle) In-Reply-To: <20010923191116.80115.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9psiai+3l7f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27306 Kelly Hurt wrote: > I hadn't really thought of it before but I think you might be on to > something. > > * Dedalus Diggle bowed to Harry in a shop once. Maybe he was watching > over Harry? > > * Also, he just happened to be present when Hagrid took Harry to the > Leaky Cauldron the first time. Maybe not a coincidence. > > I'll be keeping my eye on Diggle. > We have been thinking Dedalus a lot here in Finland, and now is one name missing. Can anyone of you tell me, who is the actor who appears in the movie. He is in this photo from Sunday Times. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2001/10/mgallery73-1.jpg Can anyone help me? //Mirzam From robin_mcdonagh at hotmail.com Mon Oct 8 16:20:30 2001 From: robin_mcdonagh at hotmail.com (Robin McDonagh) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:20:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Fleeting look of triumph on Dumbledore's face at end of GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27307 In response to the letter below, it is probable that Wormtail knew this. Even though he did ask Voldemort to use a different wizard, it could have just been him batteling with his conscience. Wormtail owes Harry for saving his life, and as Dumbledore said "This is magic at its strongest. You may be happy someday that you saved Wormtails life." I think that Wormtail knows that Harry's blood inside of Voldemort will hurt him in the end, but could not say anything. Dumbledore must have known this too, seeing that he was the person who told Harry of the bond between him and Wormtail and also seeing how he is such an old and wise wizard. >From: laura hickman >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] RE: Fleeting look of triumph on Dumbledore's >face at end of GoF >Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 07:23:36 -0700 (PDT) > >Sorry, first of all, getting back at this one a day >later, between work, classes and regular life, and >rereading HP over and over again... I just thought of >something... Since Vol couldn't touch HP bc of Lily's >love for him, using HP's blood could possible even >hurt Vol since the magic of Lily's love is still >within HP. So maybe in Wormtail's idea of using any >other wizard would be better, may just be right... am >I really saying Wormtail could be smarter than Vol... >no, just thinking on a different level. Plus, >Dumbledore, being such an advanced wizard must have >thought of this. Now, to tell you the truth... I >maybe wrong (which is fine with me) I guess I'm just >waiting, very unpatientally for the next book... >please hurry) > >Laura, lost dazed and confused... sorry just worked >really late last night and I just got up... :) > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just >$8.95/month. >http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 7 17:49:22 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:49:22 -0000 Subject: Musings about Eagle Owls In-Reply-To: <9pos7g+2qg2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pq4j2+idn4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27308 Susanne wrote: The Malfoy family owns an > eagle owl (we hear about that various times, it always brings Draco > parcels with sweets from home). But then, this animal is mentioned > twice in GoF and in very interesting points: > > The first citation, IMO, must be the letter Moody/Crouch jr. gets > from Pettigrew about Crouch sr. having escaped. > And the second is the letter Moody/Crouch sends back to Voldemort to > report that he has successfully got Crouch sr. out of the way. > > The Malfoys' owl and the one that carries letters back and forth > between Voldemort and Moody/Crouch clearly can't be the same. Great Post! But can we really be sure about whether it is the same owl or not? Perhaps Moody is using Malfoy's owl. It seems that the school owls are barn owls, and Moody doesn't have an owl. Wormtail doesn't have an owl, either. So does Moody have permission to use Draco's owl? Maybe. Does this indicate that Draco learned about the plot to restore Voldemort from his dad and is cooperating? Hmmm. As for the dream, I always thought this was another example of Harry dreaming something that was about to happen to him, not that he is dreaming about a letter being sent. The idea would be that Harry is "seeing" the conclusion of the Triwizard Tournament when he will fly straight to Voldemort and Wormtail. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 8 17:16:13 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:16:13 -0000 Subject: Different POVs and Viewpoint Shifts In-Reply-To: <9pol3e+ru8l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9psn0t+8man@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27309 Luke wrote:> > The Harry Potter books are written by a third-person, > limited-omniscient narrator. > A "limited-omniscient" narrator means that the narrator is privy to > the thoughts of one or a group of characters. Often just one, but > that's not required. The line between "limited-omniscient" in the > event of a group and full-out "omniscient" becomes a bit hazy as you > can imagine. Thanks you for this explanation, Luke. The narrator is privy to Harry's thoughts and can report them as needed. I take it that the narrator can also report things that Harry could observe, even if Harry isn't ideally positioned to observe them. In PoA, JKR seems to do this, as when Harry is regaining consciousness yet is able to accurately recount a conversation between Fudge and Snape: [Conversation about Order of Merlin, confundus charm, etc.] "Harry lay listening with his eyes tight shut. He felt very groggy. The words he was hearing seemed to be traveling very slowly from his ears to his brain, so that it was difficult to understand. " [More conversation] "There was a pause. Harry's brain seemd to be moving a little faster, and as it did, a gnawing sensation grew in the pit of his stomach." This seems to suggest that our viewpoint character is able to report things, even if he is not alert or is otherwise impaired. I am guessing that there must be a minimum level of consciousness and awareness before the author has to abandon the viewpoint character POV, although I am not sure what it is. For instance, could a baby be a viewpoint character? I don't know. On the other hand, I suppose that we can't assume that the viewpoint character is reporting everything that he is positioned to observe. In the conversation above, for instance, can we be sure we have heard everything Fudge and Snape discuss after Harry wakes up? Hmmm. Luke continued: > Now here's the neat thing. Since all of the above are third- person, > as long as it's not disorientating, the author can technically switch > between those subcategories, even without a clear break like one would > have at a chapter. Usually they won't, but they can. > > This ability should not be abused. Remember the guideline: switch POV > as little as possible and still be able to tell as powerful a story. > > Take the Quidditch match in which Quirrel tries to curse Harry to fall > off his broom. Was it necessary to switch away from Harry, our normal > viewpoint character? Yes. >Then after that we go to the commentary of the match by Lee > Jordan (with Prof. McGonagall's interjections) which is clearly not > from Harry's POV. > > You could argue that when this occurs, Jordan and McGonagall are our > viewpoint characters. I don't think so, because the emphasis is on > their dialogue, not them. Except for a quick 'close-up' shot when > they are introduced ("The Weasley twins' friend, Lee Jordan, was doing > the commentary for the match, closely watched by Professor > McGonagall."), the reader is not supposed to be picturing them, but > the match itself, as described by Jordan. So we have a "viewpoint > focus" again, now of the match, rather than the stands like in our > earlier case with Ron and Hermione. Are you sure that the Jordan/McGonagall exchanges aren't still Harry's POV? I had always thought that Jordan's voice is magnified, and McGonagall's voice is also because she sits next to him. We are following Harry as he listens to the commentary, as it is important that the seeker pay attention to the commentary so he'll know the score, among other things. If that is correct, then we have Harry as our viewpoint character, plus the viewpoint focus on Ron and Hermione. The close-up shot of Lee and McGonagall would be exposition (or is narration?), perhaps? In any event, there is one rather strange POV shift after the Quidditch match, however. Harry, Ron and Hermione go to visit Hagrid, and they plan on telling Hagrid that Snape was cursing Harry's broom: "It was Snape," Ron was explaining, "Hermione and I saw him. He was cursing your broomstick, muttering, he wouldn't take his eyes off you." "Rubbish," said Hagrid, WHO HADN'T HEARD A WORD OF WHAT HAD GONE ON NEXT TO HIM IN THE STANDS. "Why would Snape do somethin' like that?" Harry, Ron, and Hermione looked at one another, WONDERING WHAT TO TELL HIM. Harry decided on the truth. Why does JKR give us the viewpoints of Hagrid, Hermione and Ron for just these (capitalized) clauses? Is this just a glitch, or is it some omniscient narrator POV creeping in? If so, why? Luke wrote: > So what about the first chapter of GOF? There we get Frank Bryce's > thoughts, so aren't we breaking the limitations of the existing > narrator then? Why does that work? > > Because it's a clean break (and there's no precedent to fulfill). A couple of points. First, it seems really odd that JKR gives us the viewpoint of Bryce, a minor and unimportant character who is going to die in a few minutes anyway. In some ways, it seems like a waste. Would it have been possible (and effective) to do this scene from Wormtail's POV instead? Anyway, now that you mention it, Luke, JKR does the same type of POV shifting in the first chapter of PS/SS. We start with exposition about the Dursleys, then we move straight into Vernon's POV, although I'm not sure I can pinpoint the exact place where the transition happens. Vernon gets into the car and backs out. Then: "It was on the corner of the street that he noticed the first sign of something peculiar ? a cat reading a map. For a second, Mr. Dursley DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT HE HAD SEEN ? then he jerked his head around to look again." But it might be this subsequent passage instead: "Mr. Dursley gave himself a little shake and PUT THE CAT OUT OF HIS MIND. As he drove toward town he THOUGHT OF NOTHING EXCEPT A LARGE ORDER OF DRILLS HE WAS HOPING TO GET THAT DAY." After spending some time with Mr. Dursley's POV, it seems we get a pretty clear transition from his thoughts to a viewpoint focus on Privet Drive in the middle of the night with no viewpoint character. Vernon falls asleep, then we get an objective account of the cat's activity, then Dumbledore appears. JKR seems to take pains to stay out of his viewpoint, as she uses phrases like he "didn't seem to realize he had just arrived in a street where everything from his name to his boots was unwelcome." And "the sight of the cat seemed to amuse him." In fact, she uses phrases like "seemed to" and "it was plain that" a great deal. It comes off as quite stilted ? is this a necessary evil of trying to communicate the character's emotions while having a viewpoint focus instead of a viewpoint character? Then, when Harry is left on the doorstep, JKR comes close to giving us his viewpoint: "One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing he was special, not knowing he was famous, not knowing he would be woken in a few hours' time by Mrs. Dursley's scream ." I have a feeling that this is exposition, not Harry's POV, but I'm not completely sure. Opinions? If we take the first chapter of PS/SS, the Quiddich match in PS/SS, and the first chapter of GoF, are these the only viewpoint shifts anyone can recall in the HP series? Cindy From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 17:18:43 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <9psiai+3l7f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011008171843.30703.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27310 Okay, in this picture from the movie http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2001/10/mgallery73-1.jpg Quirrel is shown wearing a turban when he meets Harry for the first time. This is wrong! Quirrel started wearing the turban when Voldemort physically possessed him. I'll add this to my list of Things Wrong with the Movie, which now includes * Hagrid's house should be wood not stone. * Robes aren't the right kind. * There are supposed to be chairs -- not benches -- in the great hall. * Robes should not have color-coded crests. [This will ruin one of my favorite bits in the Polyjuice episode.] * You're not supposed to be able to tell it's a broom when it's delivered. * et al. I'm getting more and more wary of this movie! Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From joym999 at aol.com Mon Oct 8 17:36:51 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:36:51 -0000 Subject: Gringotts Break-in: An inside job?! A defector?! In-Reply-To: <9pshrt+hh2g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pso7j+d3bn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27311 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kidzero7 at h... wrote: > This post was inspired by the post about a Weasly possibly defecting. > I think there is a chance it has already happened... > > Not sure if this is unanswered in the Harry Potter series: > > Did Professor Quirrell admit to breaking into Gringotts to steal the > Stone? Or did everyone assume it was him? In SS/PS, chapter 17, Quirrel says to Harry: "He (Voldemort) does not forgive mistakes easily. When I failed to steal the stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased." Sounds to me like he admitted it. > What if the "cool" Bill Weasley is responsible for the would-be theft? [snip] > - Where was Bill at the time of the break-in? in SS/PS, chapter six (on the Hogwarts Express) Ron says to Harry: "... Bill's in Africa doing something for Gringotts." This occurs on September 1. > - Can we totally back up his innocence? We don't know if wizards can apparate from Africa to Europe, although it's implied that they can not apparate over long distances. But I suppose it's possible that Bill was in London on July 31, unbeknowst to his family. > - Has he given us any reason to suspect him of defecting? > Bill has not given us any reason, IMO, to suspect him, and plenty of reasons not to, but I suppose anything's possible. --Joywitch From vderark at bccs.org Mon Oct 8 17:48:47 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:48:47 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <20011008171843.30703.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9psotv+rmdr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27312 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > Okay, in this picture from the movie > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2001/10/mgallery73-1.jpg > I'll add this to my list of Things Wrong with the Movie, which now > includes > > * There are supposed to be chairs -- not benches -- in the great hall. What makes you say this? I always assumed benches. Is there a reference somewhere to there being chairs? Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 17:46:49 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:46:49 -0000 Subject: Which site has the test to see how mad you are about HP Message-ID: <9psoq9+popi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27313 which site is it From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Mon Oct 8 18:40:10 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:40:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27315 I also thought they were chairs, probably for the same reasons as Megan, like > "He [Harry] slipped into a seat between Ron and > Hermione athe the Gryffindor table..." (PS 220) > "He [Harry] and Hermione sat down on either side of Ron, who had saved > them seats." (POA 91) > "Percy, who was sitting a few seats down..." (POA 92) > "Harry dropped into a seat at the Gryffindor table..." (POA 96) HOWEVER, I am more willing to give them a pass on using chairs than I am on their putting Quirrell into a turban before the break-in, simply because they were actually dealing with a real life room in their Great Hall scenes, not a set, and benches for 400 take up less space than chairs do - it might've been a space issue, or a configuration issue, and I'm willing to allow that as something that *may have to* be different on screen than in the book, simply because Chris Columbus can't actually use magic to make the room larger, sad as that is. From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 18:49:36 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:49:36 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <9psotv+rmdr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pssg0+ejhb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27316 > What makes you say this? I always assumed benches. Is there a > reference somewhere to there being chairs? "...and Ron sank so low in his chair that only his crimson forehead could be seen." (COS 88) "Ginny jumped as though her chair had been electrified." (286 COS) "'Certainly, certainly,' said Dumbledore, his eyes twinkling. 'Let me draw you up a chair--' And he did indeed draw a chair in midair with his wand..." (POA 228) Plus there are several mentions of "seat" that just don't sound like how people describe benches. "He [Harry] slipped into a seat between Ron and Hermione at the the Gryffindor table..." (PS 220) "He [Harry] and Hermione sat down on either side of Ron, who had saved them seats." (POA 91) "Percy, who was sitting a few seats down..." (POA 92) "Harry dropped into a seat at the Gryffindor table..." (POA 96) Haven't had a chance to leaf through GOF for chair references, but these are what I have found in the first three. -Megan From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 19:01:07 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chairs in the Great Hall In-Reply-To: <9psotv+rmdr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011008190107.55404.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27317 --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: >What makes you say this? I always >assumed benches. Is there a reference >somewhere to there being chairs? SS Chap 7: The Sorting Hat when Ron is being sorted: Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair next to him. I also remember Ron pulling out a chair when trying to get Krum to sit with Gryffindor in GoF. There are others, too. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From vderark at bccs.org Mon Oct 8 19:04:42 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:04:42 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pstca+kv09@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27318 Actually, it's more specific than that. I took to doing a little research after I wrote that email and found: Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair next to him. (SS, after the sorting) People throughout the hall were swiveling around to see who had received the Howler, and Ron sank so low in his chair that only his crimson forehead could be seen. (when Ron received the Howler in CS) Harry suddenly realized who Ginny looked like. She was rocking backward and forward slightly in her chair, exactly like Dobby did when he was teetering on the edge of revealing forbidden information. (also in CS, when Ginny tried to tell Harry and Ron about what has been happening to her) I'm sure there are more. But clearly there are supposed to be chairs in the Great Hall. Steve From nausicaa at atlantic.net Mon Oct 8 19:16:22 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jenny K.) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 15:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <20011008171843.30703.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011008171843.30703.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1002568582.3bc1fb8676b22@webmail.atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27319 Quoting Kelly Hurt : > Okay, in this picture from the movie > > http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/images/2001/10/mgallery73-1.jpg > > Quirrel is shown wearing a turban when he meets > Harry for the first > time. This is wrong! Quirrel started wearing > the turban when > Voldemort physically possessed him. Forgive me if I missed something somewhere (it's been known to happen), but where in the book does it mention that he *isn't* wearing a turban? Something like a description of his hair or his entire ensemble, perhaps? I thought that he'd been posessed while on a trip (somewhere in eastern Europe was it? can't recall) that had occurred before the beginning of the school year...and thus before Harry met him, which would make the movie accurate in that respect. Please let me know if I'm wrong in this (I have faith that y'all will!). :-) Jenny K. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent through Atlantic.Net Webmail. broadband * web solutions * e-commerce * dial-up Visit www.atlantic.net to learn more. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 8 19:52:40 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:52:40 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs & Chairs In-Reply-To: <9pstca+kv09@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pt068+vj55@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27320 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Actually, it's more specific than that. I took to doing a little > research after I wrote that email and found: > > Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair > next to him. (SS, after the sorting) > > People throughout the hall were swiveling around to see who had > received the Howler, and Ron sank so low in his chair that only his > crimson forehead could be seen. (when Ron received the Howler in CS) > > Harry suddenly realized who Ginny looked like. She was rocking > backward and forward slightly in her chair, exactly like Dobby did > when he was teetering on the edge of revealing forbidden information. > (also in CS, when Ginny tried to tell Harry and Ron about what has > been happening to her) > > I'm sure there are more. But clearly there are supposed to be chairs > in the Great Hall. > I think we'll have to prepare ourselves for little differences like this. I'm no set designer, but I think using benches is likely to work far better than chairs, for two reasons. First, if you use chairs and you fail to line them all up in a perfect row, you'll have this weird zig-zag effect, and the look will be chaotic. Second, with chairs, you always have the problem of "empty" chairs distracting the viewer. Benches are much more flexible. Also, there's a smidge of evidence that they use benches in the Great Hall, some of the time at least. When Ron wishes to invite Krum to sit at the Gryffindor table, he says: "Over here! Come and sit over here!" Ron hissed. "Over here! Hermione, budge up, make a space." Unless Ron is proposing that Krum sit in Hermione's lap, they must be seated on benches, not chairs. Cindy From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 19:56:29 2001 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:56:29 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <1002568582.3bc1fb8676b22@webmail.atlantic.net> Message-ID: <9pt0dd+2bf4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27321 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jenny K." wrote: > > Forgive me if I missed something somewhere (it's been > known to happen), but where in the book does it mention > that he *isn't* wearing a turban? Something like a > description of his hair or his entire ensemble, > perhaps? I thought that he'd been posessed while on a > trip (somewhere in eastern Europe was it? can't recall) > that had occurred before the beginning of the school > year...and thus before Harry met him, which would make > the movie accurate in that respect. > > Please let me know if I'm wrong in this (I have faith > that y'all will!). :-) > > Jenny K. > I'll take this one. >From SS (hardcover, US edition), page 122: "...Harry spotted Professor Quirrel, too, the nervous young man from the Leaky Cauldron. He was looking very peculiar in a large purple turban." While it doesn't *technically* say he hadn't been in a purple turban before, it does imply that he wasn't, simply because Harry either wouldn't consider it peculiar that he was wearing one (as he had been wearing one before), or he would have considered it peculiar the first time he met him, in the Leaky Cauldron. Jen (who didn't quite have the passage memorized, per se, but knew almost exactly where to look... almost as bad.) From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 20:08:48 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <1002568582.3bc1fb8676b22@webmail.atlantic.net> Message-ID: <20011008200848.53307.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27322 --- "Jenny K." wrote: >but where in the book does it mention >that he *isn't* wearing a turban? >Something like a description of his >hair or his entire ensemble, perhaps? In SS Chap 7 The Sorting Hat when Harry sees the teachers at their table (after being sorted), he says of Quirrell He was looking peculiar in a large purple turban. Later in the same chapter, when Quirrell is talking to Snape, the turban is described as 'absurd'. If it stands out so strangely then, why wouldn't Harry have noticed it in the Leaky Cauldron? He certainly noticed Daedalus Diggle's top hat & Doris Crockford's pipe & ... >I thought that he'd been posessed >while on a trip (somewhere in eastern >Europe was it? can't recall) that had >occurred before the beginning of the >school year...and thus before Harry >met him, which would make the movie >accurate in that respect. If Voldemort was 'indwelling' Quirrell when Harry met him at the Leaky Cauldron, Quirrell wouldn't have been able to shake his hand: "P-P-Potter" stammered Professor Quirrell, grasping Harry's hand,.... Quirrell tells Harry in the last chapter that "....When I failed to steal the stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased. He punished me...decided he would have to keep a closer watch on me..." which means Voldemort took possession AFTER July 31. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Mon Oct 8 20:06:58 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:06:58 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <20011008171843.30703.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pt112+it23@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27323 I was skimming through that Harry Potter book with stills from the movie. In it is a still of Hagrid and Harry, who's pushing the trolley loaded with suitcases and Hedwig's cage. It looks like they're at the train station. I figure the movie will clarify the scene. But if they do have Hagrid dropping Harry off at King's Cross, I will be moderately miffed. Jenny asked about Quirrell wearing a turban in the Leaky Cauldron, IIRC, When Harry sees Quirrell at the Great Hall, he notices that Quirrell is sporting a purple turban. So I assume if Quirrell was wearing a turban at the Leaky Cauldron, Harry would have noticed it. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 8 20:27:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:27:57 -0000 Subject: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?) In-Reply-To: <9p518r+atuc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pt28d+2iin@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27324 > Cindy wrote: > > > Hmmm. I never considered why Lupin doesn't transform when the > > boggart moon appears. Maybe Lupin is able to resist because the > > Boggart moon is so small -- the size of a crystal ball, apparently. > > > Had the Boggart transformed into a huge moon, perhaps Lupin would > > have transformed. After all, I assume if the Boggart changed into a > > mini-Dementor, Harry wouldn't have been overcome. > > > > It's weak, but it is the best I can do. > Amy Z wrote: > Not at all--I think it makes a lot of sense. And the fact that the > Boggart *doesn't* turn into a full-size moon might indicate that > the Boggart isn't strong enough to pull off that impressive a > transformation, and therefore may lack the power of the moon. (Also > that materializing an 2000-mile-diameter satellite within the castle > might pose some problems .) > Now I am starting to wonder if we've missed the easiest and most obvious explanation for why Lupin doesn't transform when the boggart moon appears (and forgive me if someone already mentioned this and I missed it). When Harry has his anti-dementor lessons with Lupin, the boggart demonstrates that it does indeed have the powers of the thing that it is imitating. Each time Lupin lets the boggart out of its box, the lights in the classroom turn off. Could it be that the boggart itself, not the dementor form, has the power to turn off the lights? No, because there is no mention that the boggart causes the lights to go off when Neville and the students fight the boggart or that they are manuevering in the dark. On his first two attempts to conjur a Patronus, Harry faints, so we don't know if the darkening of the classroom really happens, or whether it is part of his subjective experience. But on the third and more successful attempt, we are explicitly told that the lights do in fact go out: [Lupin hands Harry some chocolate] "Eat the lot, or Madam Pomfrey will be after my blood. Same time next week?" "Okay," said Harry. He took a bite of the chocolate and watched Lupin extinguishing the lamps that had rekindled with the disappearance of the dementor. So if the boggart has the powers of the form it assumes, then why doesn't Lupin transform when the boggart appears? Well, Lupin never encounters a boggart unexpectedly. On each occasion, he has found the boggart and deliberately brought it with him as a teaching aid. So if Lupin knew he were going to encounter a boggart, and if he knew what form it would take when it saw him (Ron's muttering about the spider tells us that wizards can predict the form the boggart chooses), it only makes sense that he'd have a swig of wolfsbane potion to make sure he wouldn't transform during the lessons. Perhaps had he not consumed wolfsbane potion beforehand, then the boggart's turning into the moon would indeed have caused him to transform right there in the classroom. So, if a boggart has the powers of the form it assumes, is Harry in danger of being Kissed when he does not successfully conjure a Patronus to ward off the boggart/dementor? Well, Lupin is there to prevent this, of course. If Lupin had not been there, would Harry have been in danger? Hard to say, but apparently, dementors don't necessarily Kiss every wizard they see the first chance they get, or even drain the power from every wizard they encounter. We know that Fudge had a dementor with him when he went to interrogate Crouch, and there is no suggestion that Fudge, Snape or McGonagall were drained of their powers and had to be fed chocolate. Finally, there's the question of why the boggart explodes in a wisp of smoke sometimes, but is forced back into a packing case at other times. I guess the boggart is destroyed as smoke when it has been suffiently abused, either with lots of little charms (the students) or by a single strong blast (Harry in the maze). Lupin, of course, doesn't want to destroy it, so he doesn't blast it hard enough to "kill" it. Cindy (who half-wonders whether Fudge's awful behavior in GoF is some evidence that he in fact has been Kissed) From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Mon Oct 8 20:42:19 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:42:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27325 Jen wrote, >"...Harry spotted Professor Quirrel, too, the nervous young man from >the Leaky Cauldron. He was looking very peculiar in a large purple >turban." > >While it doesn't *technically* say he hadn't been in a purple turban >before, it does imply that he wasn't, simply because Harry either >wouldn't consider it peculiar that he was wearing one (as he had been >wearing one before), or he would have considered it peculiar the >first time he met him, in the Leaky Cauldron. hmmm...maybe.....or maybe Harry just wasn't paying much attention to Quirrel and his headgear during that initial meeting. Either way, it makes very little sense to me that Quirrel was possessed sometime after that encouter but before the start of term. A couple of weeks doesn't seem like enough time to get yourself in that much trouble, does it? ;} Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From vheggie at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 20:49:12 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:49:12 -0000 Subject: Double Weasley defection [was; Gringotts break-in] In-Reply-To: <9pshrt+hh2g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pt3g8+6bfs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27326 [snip; long theories about Bill Weasley...] bear with me... Quirrell managed to break into the Goblin bank, despite it's famed security; Bill W works for Gringotts. Quirrell needed an illegal dragon's egg to bribe Hagrid into revealing the secret of Fluffy's musical weakness; Charlie W works with dragons. Co-incidence? Probably, but it's still thought-provoking... From bak42 at netzero.net Mon Oct 8 20:37:53 2001 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:37:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs & Chairs In-Reply-To: <9pt068+vj55@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000201c15039$1bc15ea0$ea7a9e40@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 27327 Here's some more evidence of benches in the Great Hall taken from GoF Chapter 37. They did it, all of them; the benches scraped as everyone in the Hall stood, and raised their goblets, and echoed, in one load, low, rumbling voice, "Cedric Diggory." ---------------------------------------------------------- Brandon 73% Obsessed with Harry Potter Earth: Mostly harmless --The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy "You know," said Ron, whose hair was on end because of all the times he had run his fingers through it in frustration, "I think it's back to the old Divination standby." "What -- make it up?" --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire -----Original Message----- From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com [mailto:cynthiaanncoe at home.com] Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 12:53 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs & Chairs --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Actually, it's more specific than that. I took to doing a little > research after I wrote that email and found: > > Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair > next to him. (SS, after the sorting) > > People throughout the hall were swiveling around to see who had > received the Howler, and Ron sank so low in his chair that only his > crimson forehead could be seen. (when Ron received the Howler in CS) > > Harry suddenly realized who Ginny looked like. She was rocking > backward and forward slightly in her chair, exactly like Dobby did > when he was teetering on the edge of revealing forbidden information. > (also in CS, when Ginny tried to tell Harry and Ron about what has > been happening to her) > > I'm sure there are more. But clearly there are supposed to be chairs > in the Great Hall. > I think we'll have to prepare ourselves for little differences like this. I'm no set designer, but I think using benches is likely to work far better than chairs, for two reasons. First, if you use chairs and you fail to line them all up in a perfect row, you'll have this weird zig-zag effect, and the look will be chaotic. Second, with chairs, you always have the problem of "empty" chairs distracting the viewer. Benches are much more flexible. Also, there's a smidge of evidence that they use benches in the Great Hall, some of the time at least. When Ron wishes to invite Krum to sit at the Gryffindor table, he says: "Over here! Come and sit over here!" Ron hissed. "Over here! Hermione, budge up, make a space." Unless Ron is proposing that Krum sit in Hermione's lap, they must be seated on benches, not chairs. Cindy Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 21:08:23 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:08:23 -0000 Subject: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?) In-Reply-To: <9pt28d+2iin@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pt4k7+cjnm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27328 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > So if Lupin knew he were going to encounter a boggart, and if he > knew what form it would take when it saw him (Ron's muttering about > the spider tells us that wizards can predict the form the boggart > chooses), it only makes sense that he'd have a swig of wolfsbane > potion to make sure he wouldn't transform during the lessons. > Perhaps had he not consumed wolfsbane potion beforehand, then the > boggart's turning into the moon would indeed have caused him to > transform right there in the classroom. Ah, but the wolfsbane potion doesn't stop the transformation altogether, it just allows him to keep his human "sanity". Lupin says of the wolfsbane potion he could "curl up, a harmless wolf" after taking it. So you need to first prescribe to the "possible side-effects of wolfsbane" theory for this to work. Anyway, I personally tend to agree that it's the phases of the moon and not the sight of the moon that makes the difference. > So, if a boggart has the powers of the form it assumes, is Harry in > danger of being Kissed when he does not successfully conjure a > Patronus to ward off the boggart/dementor? I maintain that Harry's reaction to the boggart is not conclusive proof that the boggart assumes the capabilities of its form counterpart, though that may well be true. 1) Harry's reaction could be psychologically-induced purely without any abilities of the boggart. 2) The boggart may only be limited to taking on the *psychological* capabilities of its form counterpart since it, itself, is a psychologically-based creature. Hence, physical capabilities like the Kiss or an acromantula bite or even basic physical contact might be beyond it. We don't yet know if the boggart is ethereal like the ghosts or actaully comprised of solid, worldly matter. Unless it says so in Fantastic Beasts, which I do not own yet, sadly. Of course, the ghosts do have some sway over physical matter in order to be able to speak, which requires vibrating sound waves through the air. Unless they simply move their mouths and transmit thoughts to the listener, which would again be psychological. And once you start getting into the science of it, then there's also the fact that particle/wave theory would hold that there may not be any difference between the psychological and the physical. And then things get really crazy. So I guess that's why it's magic, and science can just go sit in a corner and sulk. -Luke From SoSilently at aol.com Mon Oct 8 21:16:50 2001 From: SoSilently at aol.com (SoSilently at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:16:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs Message-ID: <4b.1252ad52.28f371c2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27329 In a message dated 10/8/2001 1:55:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, klhurt at yahoo.com writes: > If it stands out so strangely then, why wouldn't Harry have noticed it > in the Leaky Cauldron? He certainly noticed Daedalus Diggle's top hat > & Doris Crockford's pipe & ... I think it's safe to say that he probably wasn't wearing the turban in the book. However, I wouldn't say that Quirrel wearing it in the movie is necessarily an indication that the movie-makers aren't paying attention to detail. Quirrel's turban is his identifying characteristic. It makes sense, visually speaking, to have him wearing it the first time we see him in the Leaky Cauldron. When we see him again in the castle, the connection and recognition will be immediate and clear. If the movie-makers followed the book in this instance, they would run the risk of people not immediately connecting the "crazy turban-wearing teacher" with bare-headed Quirrel in the pub. This is, of course, assuming that the people in the audience haven't read the book several million times already. ;) --chloe (mmm...bare-headed Quirrel....) From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 21:28:16 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:28:16 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pt5pg+h3oi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27330 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" wrote: > Either way, it makes very little sense to me that Quirrel was > possessed sometime after that encouter but before the start of term. > A couple of weeks doesn't seem like enough time to get yourself in > that much trouble, does it? ;} Right, I think the confusion people are having is that Quirrel DID meet Voldemort in Albania before Harry met him in the Leaky Cauldron, and was at this time already working for Voldemort, but it was not until after the failed stone theft that Voldemort decided to take residence on the back of Quirrel's head in order to avoid any further failures as explained from the quote Kelly excised from the end of the book: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > "....When I failed to steal the stone from Gringotts, he was most > displeased. He punished me...decided he would have to keep a closer > watch on me..." This seems a clear imposition that it was only at this point Quirrel "built a little birdhouse in his soul" (Dark Lord-house in his cranium) even though he had made Voldemort his master long before this. *** On book discrepancies: Actually, I find the fact that most of the discrepancies are not in any way plot-relevant to be quite heartening. We can be a bit too L.O.O.N.y this way. They have logistical reasons for the changes they made (whether that affects the perfection of it or not in your mind), but they seem to be remaining true to the SPIRIT of the books, which is, in the end, the most important thing. I do not advocate changing things for no good reason, but they may have had specific motivations to make Hagrid's hut out of stone, for example. And they had logistical filming considerations to take into account with Dan Radcliffe's haircut and what would be the best balance of easy to work with on set and accurate to the JKR vision. And people have pointed out why benches might be necessary instead of chairs. Or even like the fact that JKR pictures the Dursley's house as 1930s style, but they instead went for a blanket early 1990s look, just because a 1930s house would look too substantial, classy, and non-"cookie cutter" suburban to much of the audience. That's a legitamitely motivated change to my mind, even if it isn't 100% accurate and I secretly wish they wouldn't bother doing things like that. Better that then handing the movie rights over to people who would have "tightened" (read as: euphemism for ruined) the plot or characters. -Luke From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 21:33:11 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:33:11 -0000 Subject: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?) In-Reply-To: <9pt28d+2iin@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pt62n+9i85@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27331 To Cindy: Oops, I somehow missed your comment about the lights going out in my response to Boggarts' abilities to take on the powers of their form counterparts. Now that puts an interesting spin on things as proof that Boggarts do have some ability to affect physical changes. Interesting. I shall have to regroup and reconsider. -Luke From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 8 22:06:46 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 22:06:46 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Chairs In-Reply-To: <000201c15039$1bc15ea0$ea7a9e40@bak42> Message-ID: <9pt81m+6gsk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27332 Brandon wrote: > Here's some more evidence of benches in the Great Hall taken from GoF > Chapter 37. > They did it, all of them; the benches scraped as everyone in the Hall stood, > and raised their goblets, and echoed, in one load, low, rumbling voice, > "Cedric Diggory." So, then. Is the score Benches -- 2; Chairs -- 3? :) As a member of the "Bench" team, I'll have to do some more nit- picking to see if we can overtake the "Chairs" group. Miltz wrote: I was skimming through that Harry Potter book with stills from the > movie. In it is a still of Hagrid and Harry, who's pushing the > trolley loaded with suitcases and Hedwig's cage. It looks like > they're at the train station. I figure the movie will clarify the > scene. But if they do have Hagrid dropping Harry off at King's Cross, > I will be moderately miffed. > And Luke wrote: I do not advocate changing things for no good reason, but they may > have had specific motivations to make Hagrid's hut out of stone, for > example. And they had logistical filming considerations to take into > account with Dan Radcliffe's haircut and what would be the best > balance of easy to work with on set and accurate to the JKR vision. I would like to propose the formation of a new support group for listies who are willing to accept changes to PS/SS if they make the movie tighter and don't do harm to the plot and integrity of the series. For instance, in the book, Hagrid drops Harry off back at Privet drive for a one-month stay, and Harry basically wrings his hands and reads his school books until it is time to board the train. Harry also has the angst of not knowing how to get on the train and the accompanying self-doubt. I would think it would be quite difficult to convey all of this in a movie and not worth the effort, so omitting it for the sake of brevity seems like a good call to me. Membership in the new group, called S.A.D. (Society of Apologists for the Director) is one sickle, payable upon viewing the entire film and concluding that the director has done a good job on the movie under the circumstances and should not be fed to a skrewt. Cindy (wondering if the Great Hall will contain tall bar stools for OoP) From klhurt at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 23:05:40 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chairs & MOVIE: (Train Station & Changes) In-Reply-To: <9pt81m+6gsk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011008230540.93917.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27333 Brandon wrote: >Here's some more evidence of benches >in the Great Hall taken from GoF >Chapter 37. >They did it, all of them; the benches >scraped as everyone in the Hall stood, >and raised their goblets, and echoed, >in one load, low, rumbling voice, >"Cedric Diggory." Seems like a Flint: chairs through PoA and benches in GoF. Miltz wrote: >In it is a still of Hagrid and Harry, >who's pushing the trolley loaded with >suitcases and Hedwig's cage. It looks >like they're at the train station. I >figure the movie will clarify the >scene. But if they do have Hagrid >dropping Harry off at King's Cross, I >will be moderately miffed. Hagrid took Harry to the train station after the shopping expedition, bought him a hamburger and put him on a train back to Privet Drive, so this *could* be kosher. BUT considering the time constraints and the fact that nothing much happens between Harry's birthday & Sept. 1, they may have decided to condense it. Luke wrote: >I do not advocate changing things for >no good reason, but they may have had >specific motivations to make Hagrid's >hut out of stone, for example. And >they had logistical filming >considerations to take into account I agree that some things had to be changed for filming reasons -- for example, the students don't wear hats during classes (doing so would have caused shadows on faces and made it difficult to distinguish one from the other, etc.) -- but there doesn't seem to be any reason for changing the color of Dudley's knickerbockers or the broom obviously being a broom or.... Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 8 23:06:21 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 23:06:21 -0000 Subject: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?) In-Reply-To: <9pt62n+9i85@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ptbhd+5lu4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27334 Luke Wrote: > To Cindy: > > Oops, I somehow missed your comment about the lights going out in my > response to Boggarts' abilities to take on the powers of their form > counterparts. Now that puts an interesting spin on things as proof > that Boggarts do have some ability to affect physical changes. > Interesting. I shall have to regroup and reconsider. > Luke, you may not have to regroup. I observed how you easily destroyed my whole idea that Lupin sipped wolfsbane potion to avoid transforming in front of the students, so I am the one who needs to re-group. So here goes. To this "harmless wolf" transformation problem, I offer up a pointless mini-rant. I never liked this business about Lupin curling up as a harmless wolf in his office. It is too messy, and leaves open the possibility that someone will discover him in his wolf-state. Better would be simply to have him get sick instead of transforming, but remain human. If I re-write the book accordingly, then my simple little theory would work just fine. Cindy (wishing people would pretend that it was hard work to destroy her theories) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 8 23:18:42 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 23:18:42 -0000 Subject: Characteristic Moments In-Reply-To: <9pqqmo+kos9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ptc8i+63c8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27335 Hella wrote: > We all know why we like the characters we do. We understand their > personalities (an example would be Hermione's speech to Harry at the > end of PS/SS about friendship and bravery etc. We love Hermione > because of that speech, we know what is really important to her.) I > was thinking of other instances when the reader's depth of > understanding or affection towards an already beloved character is > strengthened. Just moments or small actions that strike one as being > demonstrative of the character's personality core. For example, these > are some minor moments that make me fonder of the following > characters: > Great thought-provoking post! Here are a few of my favorites examples of characterization: Snape -- Although I am hardly a fan, I sure appreciate his flair for the sarcastic remark in PoA: "Everyone from the Minister of Magic downward has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself. Let the ordinary people worry about his safety! Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences." Lupin -- Lupin is tied with Sirius as my favorite character. He is among the most unflappable characters in the series, and if there were any doubt, his handling of Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack proves it: "Well, hello, Peter," said Lupin pleasantly, as though rats frequently erupted into old school friends around him. "Long time, no see." Black -- Black really doesn't have that many scenes in the series, so JKR really has to make the most of them to make Black such a great character. One example of this is her ability to remind us that Black has been in prison so long that he might not react to things like someone else would: "Er -- Mr. Black -- Sirius?" said Hermione. Black jumped at being addressed like this and stared at Hermione as though he had never seen anything quite like her. I could go on and on, but those are some of my favorite character details that really worked for me. Cindy From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 23:43:06 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 23:43:06 -0000 Subject: The obviousness of the broom (was Re: Chairs & MOVIE) In-Reply-To: <20011008230540.93917.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9ptdma+ptcc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27336 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > I agree that some things had to be changed for filming reasons -- > for example, the students don't wear hats during classes (doing so > would have caused shadows on faces and made it difficult to > distinguish one from the other, etc.) -- but there doesn't seem to > be any reason for changing the color of Dudley's knickerbockers or > the broom obviously being a broom or.... As a pending (it seems everyone remains unconfirmed until Nov. 16) member of S.A.D. (which was a great acronym, Cindy, because the "apologists" thing is really quite accurate: in a perfect world, I wouldn't make the changes, but I understand why they have to in this non-perfect one), I will state that there may be a reason for the broom obviously being a broom. The first possibility, which I have hoped isn't the case, ever since I first saw this scene way back when, is that they decided to shorten the scene for time considerations by making Harry open it at the table, skipping the note and the going up to the dormroom and all that. They would then have decided that the expense that this results in for McGonagall's characterization was an acceptable evil, rather than cutting for time elsewhere. The fact that I think this is a lame reason and that they could have worked around such a scene's length without having to change it does not alter the fact that they may believe they have a legitamite reason for the change. Also quite possible, if they aren't changing the scene for reasons of length, is that there was a logistical problem for the owl. It sounds like it was an absolute nightmare for him to carry that package just for reasons of weight, and they almost didn't think they could pull it off. Putting the broom in a box, as I seem to recall it was in the book, would only have exacerbated their difficulty in making it possible for the owl to carry it. -Luke From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 23:52:47 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 23:52:47 -0000 Subject: The Chairs Debate In-Reply-To: <20011008230540.93917.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pte8f+p80h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27337 > >Here's some more evidence of benches > >in the Great Hall taken from GoF > >Chapter 37. > >They did it, all of them; the benches > >scraped as everyone in the Hall stood, > >and raised their goblets, and echoed, > >in one load, low, rumbling voice, > >"Cedric Diggory." > > Seems like a Flint: chairs through PoA and benches in GoF. (Psst, aren't benches usually fixed in place? A non-fixed bench seems awfully unstable to have anywhere from tens to a hundred plus [depending on your Hogwarts student population theory] people sitting on!] But there are also chairs mentioned in GOF. Seems like a inconsistency? We'll have to debate this out. In argument to whoever said something about Hermione "budging up" some Krum could sit at the Gryffindor table...Ron could have intended for Hermione to SCOOT her chair over so that more chairs could be fit around the giant tables. Or perhaps there were empty chairs around the group and Ron wanted Hermione to move to make the empty seats more apparant. Has anyone else noticed that whenever the Hall has been "cleared" it only mentions the TABLES being moved and not the chairs/benches? No matter the case, there still seems to be more evidence for the chair argument. Personally, I don't see this as a "mistake" in the movie either way. Benches are much more practical for set pieces...and hey, if using incorrect benches makes Warner release future productions faster, I say all for it! From joym999 at aol.com Tue Oct 9 00:24:54 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:24:54 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Chairs In-Reply-To: <000201c15039$1bc15ea0$ea7a9e40@bak42> Message-ID: <9ptg4m+bv2j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27338 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bak42" wrote: > Here's some more evidence of benches in the Great Hall taken from GoF > Chapter 37. > They did it, all of them; the benches scraped as everyone in the Hall stood, > and raised their goblets, and echoed, in one load, low, rumbling voice, > "Cedric Diggory." > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > Actually, it's more specific than that. I took to doing a little > > research after I wrote that email and found: > > > > Harry clapped loudly with the rest as Ron collapsed into the chair > > next to him. (SS, after the sorting) > > > > People throughout the hall were swiveling around to see who had > > received the Howler, and Ron sank so low in his chair that only his > > crimson forehead could be seen. (when Ron received the Howler in CS) > > > > Harry suddenly realized who Ginny looked like. She was rocking > > backward and forward slightly in her chair, exactly like Dobby did > > when he was teetering on the edge of revealing forbidden > information. > > (also in CS, when Ginny tried to tell Harry and Ron about what has > > been happening to her) > > > > I'm sure there are more. But clearly there are supposed to be > chairs > > in the Great Hall. > > > Cindy wrote: > > Also, there's a smidge of evidence that they use benches in the Great > Hall, some of the time at least. When Ron wishes to invite Krum to > sit at the Gryffindor table, he says: > > "Over here! Come and sit over here!" Ron hissed. "Over here! > Hermione, budge up, make a space." Unless Ron is proposing that Krum > sit in Hermione's lap, they must be seated on benches, not chairs. Frmo SS/PS, chapter 8: "There were a hundred and forty-two staircases at Hogwarts: wide, sweeping ones; narrow, rickety ones; some that led somewhere different on a Friday...." Clearly, the staircases are not the only feature of Hogwarts that changes. Based on the evidence provided by Cindy, Brandon, Steve and others I think it's clear that the Great Hall has chairs on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays, and benches on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturdays. And, although JKR doesn't mention it, I firmly believe that on Sundays the students sit on magically floating cushions. Also, based on variations noticed between the books and the movie set, it looks like the location of each House's table in the Great Hall also changes periodically. --Joywitch From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 00:59:47 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOVIE: Harry & Hagrid at the train station In-Reply-To: <9pt112+it23@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011009005947.73364.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27339 --- Milz wrote: > I was skimming through that Harry Potter book with > stills from the > movie. In it is a still of Hagrid and Harry, who's > pushing the > trolley loaded with suitcases and Hedwig's cage. It > looks like > they're at the train station. I figure the movie > will clarify the > scene. But if they do have Hagrid dropping Harry off > at King's Cross, > I will be moderately miffed. At the end of the chapter "Diagon Alley" of PS/SS, Hagrid takes Harry and all his new Hogwarts stuff to Paddington Station, buys him a hamburger, then helps him on the train to the Dursleys. I would bet that's where this still comes from, not from Kings Cross. If you have Hagrid there, you'd miss all Harry's lovely panic about how to find Platform 9 3/4 and the first intro of the Weasleys! Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 01:06:08 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 01:06:08 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <20011008171843.30703.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9ptii0+7gjf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27340 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > Quirrel is shown wearing a turban when he meets Harry for the first > time. This is wrong! Quirrel started wearing the turban when > Voldemort physically possessed him. Well... It is certainly implied, but it is never stated absolutely. > * Hagrid's house should be wood not stone. It looks like stone from the outside. What does the inside look like? What about the roof? What about the floor? The internal supports? > * Robes aren't the right kind. What are the right kind and why are these wrong? > * There are supposed to be chairs -- not benches -- in the great hall. I will give you that one. I am just thinking of the poor prop department having to come up with 300+ old-looking chairs for a bunch of rambunctious kids having fun making a movie. The benches work much better, less of a fire hazard, easier to stack, easier to clean, etc. > * Robes should not have color-coded crests. [This will ruin one of my > favorite bits in the Polyjuice episode.] They shouldn't? Where does it say that? Everybody seems to be able to tell instantly who is in what house and what year they are. If not the crests, how do they do it? (Hermione could have easily pinched the robes from a common laundry.) > * You're not supposed to be able to tell it's a broom when it's > delivered. It is also supposed to be delivered by six screech owls. Getting Ook (Hedwig) to deliver one measily broom took weeks, if not months of work. Getting six owls to work together would be nigh impossible. So you have a choice, either computer animate it as written, or change a detail. Which do you prefer? They decided the later. Please remember that (1) JKR had script approval, (2) she approved of all the set designs, and (3) they discussed all the custumes with her. She has had nothing but praise with what they have done. If she wasn't happy, we would have heard about it, like we've heard about her misgivings with the first book's title change and the change from "mum" to "mom". But what do we hear? So far, she loves it. If she is happy, I'm happy. Marcus From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Oct 9 01:20:33 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 01:20:33 -0000 Subject: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?) In-Reply-To: <9pt28d+2iin@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ptjd1+h6ls@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27341 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: I'm sure this has been said before, but I always assumed that Lupin didn't transform into a wolf when he saw the boggart simply because he is a powerful and experienced enough wizard to handle it. It's kind of like Harry learning to throw off the Imperius Curse; can't practice and experience help fight boggarts too? After all, boggarts are not quite real - they are more a copy of what people fear. Harry reacts to the boggart-as-Dementor because he is not yet accustomed to dealing with boggarts. He does not yet know the difference between boggarts and Dementors. Like the Imperius Curse, it is something he must fight psychologically. Lupin has already done that. --jenny from ravenclaw, being rambly *************** From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 01:47:47 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 01:47:47 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Chairs In-Reply-To: <9ptg4m+bv2j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ptl03+6o3b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27342 Yet further chair evidence... The staff table is mentioned numerous times in reference to chairs. Personally I believe it'd be decorative-ly (is that a word?) inconsistant to have benches for the four house tables and then chairs for the Head table (plainly..the head table seems like it mimics the setup of the house tables--it should be consistent in seating modes). References to chairs at the staff table can be found consistant throughout all four books. "There was a great banging and scraping as all the students got to their feet and swarmed toward the double doors into the entrance hall." (GOF 189) Benches shouldn't make noises like that when people get up from them. Unless they are detached, but that doesn't make sense either. With several people (up to a hundred plus?) moving a bench backwards at the same time--it would most likely fall over--very impractical. Unarguable: "Dennis Creevey actually stood on his chair to see it properly." (GOA 254-55) -Megan From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 01:49:47 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <9ptii0+7gjf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011009014947.40129.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27343 --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > They shouldn't? Where does it say that? Everybody > seems to be able > to tell instantly who is in what house and what year > they are. If > not the crests, how do they do it? (Hermione could > have easily > pinched the robes from a common laundry.) When Harry and Ron were looking for the Slytherin common room as Crabbe and Goyle, they asked a Ravenclaw for directions. ;) Of course, maybe the patch was covered up in some way during this scene. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From caliburncy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 02:24:41 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 02:24:41 -0000 Subject: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?) In-Reply-To: <9ptjd1+h6ls@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ptn59+9vng@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27344 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Luke Wrote: > > > To Cindy: > > > > Oops, I somehow missed your comment about the lights going out in > my > > response to Boggarts' abilities to take on the powers of their form > > counterparts. Now that puts an interesting spin on things as proof > > that Boggarts do have some ability to affect physical changes. > > Interesting. I shall have to regroup and reconsider. > > > Luke, you may not have to regroup. I observed how you easily > destroyed my whole idea that Lupin sipped wolfsbane potion to avoid > transforming in front of the students, so I am the one who needs to > re-group. Right, I meant I needed to regroup and reconsider my point about it being possible the boggart could only do psychological things, because you had brought up the effect on the lights (albeit for an unrelated reason), which would not be psychological. So it was kind of seperate from the wolfsbane potion part. Therefore we can both regroup and call it square. My regrouping is to state that I still think we can't necessarily use the effect that the boggart has on Harry as conclusive evidence that boggarts take on the properties of their form counterparts under all circumstances. There could be some limiting factors that we are not aware of. The difference from my ealier assertions is that I now have no specific support for my claims like I did before when it seemed likely that the boggart could only harness psychological effects. Oh well. I think I stated the first time this came up (at a time when I was saying much more intelligent things, BTW) that it's also possible that boggarts only have as much power as there is fear in their target. Or belief, for that matter. Such as, the boggart could only harm you if you feared/believed it could. I take as "kind of, sort of, not really, okay not at all" evidence of this the fact that Lupin tackles the boggart with something along the lines of boredom. In fact, jenny's (and some others) theory that: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > I'm sure this has been said before, but I always assumed that Lupin > didn't transform into a wolf when he saw the boggart simply because > he is a powerful and experienced enough wizard to handle it. > It's kind of like Harry learning to throw off the Imperius Curse; > can't practice and experience help fight boggarts too? After all, > boggarts are not quite real - they are more a copy of what people > fear. Harry reacts to the boggart-as-Dementor because he is not yet > accustomed to dealing with boggarts. He does not yet know the > difference between boggarts and Dementors. Like the Imperius Curse, > it is something he must fight psychologically. Lupin has already > done that. > > --jenny from ravenclaw, being rambly *************** is basically along the lines of this last alternate possibility I mentioned, that perhaps boggarts only have this power to the extent that they are feared. That once you could avoid the psychological effect of a boggart, they would be basically powerless. (BTW, I don't think you were being rambly at all, jenny). My point is not that any of these theories is true. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't. My real point is just that I'm not sure that there aren't alternate ways of interpreting the boggarts apparent ability to take on properties of their form counterpart, and how across-the-board this ability is. I guess I just don't like making firm conclusions from a single piece of evidence, however telling it might be, unless it outright states said conclusion. Do these guys show up in Fantastic Beasts? It'd be nice to have some more information on how they work. I'm assuming they don't or someone would've cited an entry by now. > Cindy (wishing people would pretend that it was hard work to destroy > her theories) Your wish is my command. The next time I nitpick something of yours I will be sure to drip some e-sweat on it, so you'll have a clear, physical record of the intense amount of mental exertion that was required. -Luke From caliburncy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 03:04:10 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 03:04:10 -0000 Subject: Readability (was a really long multi-subject header) In-Reply-To: <9pqhm5+f2lj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ptpfa+2q6b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27345 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jonathandupont at h... wrote: > On the different POVs subject - can I just say that I think that the > first chapter of GOF was the worst in the book, and that I honestly > think including different POVs in future books would be a BIG > mistake. Of course you can just say that. I tend to personally disagree with the first comment, that Chapter One of GOF was the worst in the book, and I remain undecided on the second comment, whether future POV shifts would be a mistake, because I don't have access to the plot of future books in order to see what POV(s) it necessitates. But of course you can just say that. > The strength of the series is its easy readability - and an awful > lot of that hinges on the single viewpoint (as well as its almost > complete lack of decription, but thats another matter). Its also why > IMO HP is a childrens book - but I don't care, I like the series > this way. Hmm . . . I hold the seemingly unpopular view around here that the HP books ARE primarily children's fantasy. But I don't think that its easy readability is proof of this, and I think that's an overgeneralization of children's literature, though it seems at first quite logical. Treasure Island is a widely-acknowledged children's book, but its prose style is *not* easy to read for children. Of course, its target range is older than the (alleged and, IMO, a tiny bit too low) target age for the HP books. But nevertheless the prose of Treasure Island is much more structurally complex than some other books designed for adult readers, such as John Grisham or Michael Crichton. Understandability is not, to me, the defining factor in a book's age range. If there is such a thing as a defining factor, I'd say it would be better considered to be target audience where the book's *themes* are concerned. For example, consider a book with themes about growing up. If the themes are designed to help children at that age to understand their own growing up, it's a children's book. If the themes are designed to be a nostalgic look at what it was like to grow up, it's an adult book. This does not mean an adult or child cannot find worth in the other kind of book, of course. Most adults I know could still stand to learn some of the lessons that children's literature strives to teach. And even if they have truly learned these things, they can still appreciate the wisdom of them. And if an adult book is entertaining enough or the kid mature enough, a kid might enjoy it, despite not being part of the target audience. Also, what you consider to be the "lack of description" in HP is more a reflection on the times than it is on the age range. Modern day books are generally not as weighty on exposition or description as 18th/19th century literature was. Consider it a counter-reaction to what people now perceive as the "bloated" nature of that kind of writing. You could do it then, but you can't do it now, if for no other reason than because the expectation of the reader is different. The reader knows that he/she is getting him/herself into a more heavily expository read when he/she picks up an 18th/19th century novel. But he/she would not be as accepting of the same style of writing in a modern novel. Sometime in the next generation, we will probably cycle back to preferring that same kind of "bloated" writing in our current books. HP is therefore not completely lacking in description, it is just much more selective in its detail. And this is not what makes it a children's book, because most modern day adult literature is the same way. I also don't personally think that THE strength of HP is its easy readability or that switching POVs inherently obstructs easy readability--but those are other discussions entirely. -Luke, the 'suddenly being very picky' guy From devika261 at aol.com Tue Oct 9 03:23:21 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 23:23:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?) Message-ID: <106.6c88180.28f3c7aa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27346 In a message dated Mon, 8 Oct 2001 5:32:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caliburncy at yahoo.com writes: > > Anyway, I personally tend to agree that it's the phases of the moon > and not the sight of the moon that makes the difference. I agree. Otherwise, Lupin might be afraid of seeing the moon in any phase, which I doubt. I still think that the reason Lupin does not transform when he sees the boggart is that the boggart is not the real moon and that the actual moon is not full at the time. > > So, if a boggart has the powers of the form it assumes, is Harry in > > danger of being Kissed when he does not successfully conjure a > > Patronus to ward off the boggart/dementor? > > I maintain that Harry's reaction to the boggart is not conclusive > proof that the boggart assumes the capabilities of its form > counterpart, though that may well be true. > > 1) Harry's reaction could be psychologically-induced purely without > any abilities of the boggart. > 2) The boggart may only be limited to taking on the *psychological* > capabilities of its form counterpart since it, itself, is a > psychologically-based creature. Hence, physical capabilities like the > Kiss or an acromantula bite or even basic physical contact might be > beyond it. We don't yet know if the boggart is ethereal like the > ghosts or actaully comprised of solid, worldly matter. > > Unless it says so in Fantastic Beasts, which I do not own yet, sadly. Are boggarts even in FB? I don't remember seeing them there, but I might have forgotten... > > > And once you start getting into the science of it, then there's also > the fact that particle/wave theory would hold that there may not be > any difference between the psychological and the physical. And then > things get really crazy. I love it! Although I'm not sure what the wave/particle theory would have to do with psychology, but I guess that's OT, so never mind for now. > > So I guess that's why it's magic, and science can just go sit in a > corner and sulk. > Hear, hear! I agree...and coming from a double science major, that probably means something :) Devika, whose inclination toward scientific reasoning does not prevent her from suspending her disbelief when it comes to magic in HP From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 04:03:53 2001 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (Littlered32773 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 04:03:53 -0000 Subject: Movie bruhaha Message-ID: <9ptsv9+era6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27347 I think that we all need to realize that there WILL be changes from the book to the movie. There's no way the book can be EXACTLY translated onto the screen. It would be 6 hours long. It's not like they're combining books (a la Steven Speilberg-GRRRR), but it's reasonable that some things HAVE to change. Since we all know that JK has had such close input on the movie, it's probably safe to say that she approved the changes, and if she's happy with them, I don't see why we can't be. The beauty of the book is that we can all see it in our minds the way we want. If we don't want to ruin that image, we don't HAVE to see the movie. Personally, I will be seeing it. Heck, I'm having to see it in a different language the first time around, but I don't care, because I know the story and just want to SEE the movie. (We're stationed in Germany, and won't get it in English for 3-4 months after the release! AGONY!) Chairs/Benches-As a person who hold a degree in theatrical design, I can see the wisdom in benches rather than chairs. What a nightmare that would be. They would have to be lined up when not occupied; they would all have to be occupied for groups shots (as it would be distracting to have an empty chair for no reason); they would have to make sure all the chairs were tilted in exactly the same position to make sure the backs don't obscure another actor. What a nightmare. I understand that there have been several references to chair in the books, but there have also been mentions of benches. In CoS, when they all have to sleep in the Great hall, doesn't Dumbledore wave his wand and all the chairs and benches fly against the wall? (I don't have my book, so correct me if I'm wrong on that). When Dumbledore "draws" a chair, isn't it reasonable to assume that since there were only 12 (then 13) people at a table, they would use chairs? I think the house tables had been moved for this. Finally, with all the refences to "seat" as in "can I have your seat?" why couldn't they be talking about a bench? It's still a seat. When at a football game, and asking about a seat on a bench, don't you normally say "Is this 'seat' free?" not "is this space on the bench free?" Hagrid's Hut-Why can't it be stone with wooden beams? It would burn just as easily (Hermione's comment about him living in a wooden house). Robes-What do you mean "They are the wrong kind"? Are they described in such detail that we CAN say they are the WRONG kind? I did question the crest on them, as when Hary goes to purchase his robes, he didn't know what house he was in. It could be assumed though that the patches are put on magically (or by the house elves) after they are sorted. When Hermione sneaks the spare robes, she could have sneaked spare Slytherin robes, but didn't feel the need to say so, as it would be obvious to them. It could be a device used for the movie though. It might simply be to help the audience keep people straight. There are an awful lot of characters in the story, and while we might be able to keep them straight when reading the books, it could be difficult for someone who's not familiar with the books (who can they be?) to keep up with who is in what house in the movie, therefore the justification for the crests. You're not supposed to know it's a broom-all right I'll give you that, but I don't think it will bother me. After reading the article in the Sunday Times, I'm just impressed that they got a real owl to be able to get it right (even if it's not a real broom) and didn't have to use animatronics or special effects. Okay, I'm back to lurking. Cheers! Slon From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 04:24:05 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Double Weasley defection [was; Gringotts break-in] In-Reply-To: <9pt3g8+6bfs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011009042405.13617.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27348 UGH.... I believe the only Weasely that might go to the other side (dark side) would be Percy because he's so blinded by following rules... the whole Bill and Charlie on the other side theory is just a bit to easy. Plus, I feel that Bill and Charlie are just too good, very much a cross between Fred and George's playfulness and Percy's following rules, but still a mix of Ron, just wanting to be special. I wonder if MoM will have to go after Percy because of the whole problems with Bagman??? And I wonder if the MoM will be forced to take it out on the Weasley family bc we all know L. Malfoy (I'd spell his name wrong if I tried and right now I can't seem to find it in the book) will try and strong arm the MoM into doing anything against the Weasley's that he can... but if Percy is needed by Vol that might make Vol VERY UNhappy with Malfoy. Who know's this might be why Draco and Harry have to team up, if Daddy Dearest upsets the Dark Lord! Sorry... just got home from school and now I'm lost in crazy thoughts... Talk to all later... off to bed because I have work earlier tomorrow and then more school work tomorrow! (I get to work in the campus TV studio so maybe someday I'll be able to work on the upcoming movies of HP) :) --- vheggie at yahoo.com wrote: > [snip; long theories about Bill Weasley...] > > bear with me... > > Quirrell managed to break into the Goblin bank, > despite it's famed > security; Bill W works for Gringotts. > > Quirrell needed an illegal dragon's egg to bribe > Hagrid into > revealing the secret of Fluffy's musical weakness; > Charlie W works > with dragons. > > Co-incidence? Probably, but it's still > thought-provoking... > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 04:49:11 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie bruhaha In-Reply-To: <9ptsv9+era6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011009044911.47016.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27349 --- Littlered32773 at yahoo.com wrote: IN the book, doesn't Hermonie say she got them bigger Slytherin robs, since Crabbe and Goyle are bigger then H&R so they would need bigger robes then their robes. Plus since we know that the house elfs do everything else, we have assume they would put the patches on if they weren't magical put on anyway. I do like the magical idea though, since it makes it seem like the sorting hat has another job, when he states which house, that would also cause the patch to go on the robe each child is wearing. > Robes-What do you mean "They are the wrong kind"? > Are they described > in such detail that we CAN say they are the WRONG > kind? I did > question the crest on them, as when Hary goes to > purchase his robes, > he didn't know what house he was in. It could be > assumed though that > the patches are put on magically (or by the house > elves) after they > are sorted. When Hermione sneaks the spare robes, > she could have > sneaked spare Slytherin robes, but didn't feel the > need to say so, as > it would be obvious to them. It could be a device > used for the movie > though. It might simply be to help the audience > keep people > straight. There are an awful lot of characters in > the story, and > while we might be able to keep them straight when > reading the books, > it could be difficult for someone who's not familiar > with the books > (who can they be?) to keep up with who is in what > house in the movie, > therefore the justification for the crests. > > You're not supposed to know it's a broom-all right > I'll give you > that, but I don't think it will bother me. After > reading the article > in the Sunday Times, I'm just impressed that they > got a real owl to > be able to get it right (even if it's not a real > broom) and didn't > have to use animatronics or special effects. > However, just a thought... it's true that the first time coded master edit of the film was just under 4 hours so if you want everything, you'll just have to wait for the DVD. Also, simple things like chairs vs benches is just silly... does it really matter if there are chairs or benches. Plus, if you don't want to go see the movie bc you are afraid of the changes then don't go, just don't try and ruin it for the rest of us. Remember, if you had the ablity to turn the books into movies, your views would be different then mine/Columbus/JKR. Plus, we don't know what JKR has told Columbus about book 5-7. Also, if you had a chance to read the Entertainment Weekly that came out probably mid Sept, you would remember Robbie Coltrane (Hagraid in the film) told the interviewer that JKR told him secrets that he wouldn't even share w/ his child, so maybe there is more, that we don't know about. Remember that. Plus, according to MSNBC.com the only complaint the 400 lucky viewers of the film, was that it was not long enough at 2 hours and 20somthing minutes, so maybe even for the theatrical release will end up having all 4 hours and an intermission so theatres can get the film goers to go buy more pop corn and drinks! I guess all I'm asking, since I am a film/tv/radio student, don't boo something until you see it, because you never know what will help more children to read more, which let's be honest in the end, a good story (Which we already have) and a reason for more kids to read are the most important things behind these books, not the movies, not our chatting, just good stories and a way to get more kids to read, so do the important thing, read to your kids or if you don't have kids, find time to go to your local library and help out during story time or do something. Because if you don't help our children to read and learn good vs evil, we may never overcome the evil that is going on in our world today. Please remeber do anything you can to help. And enjoy what ever way you enjoy HP. I want to aplogize for going off, but these posts about what is already wrong with the movie is taking away from the fact that these are very wonderful stories!!! Once the movie's out, then complain, don't now, now just help others and try to remember there are a lot worse things going on the world then whether or not HP had chairs or benches. Sorry, I just am very upset since I found out a very good friend is going off to .... somewhere unknown... and that scares the living S*** out of me! If you wish to complain to me, you are free to email me @ animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Thanks for letting me bitch!!! Love ya, or dislike me, after that, Thanks, Laura H. animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com P.S. I hope you all forgive me for my rant!!!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From nethilia at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 06:04:58 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FILK: Malfoy the Bouncing Ferret In-Reply-To: <1002597630.2198.29859.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20011009060458.53600.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27350 This is a very short filk, as the song it comes from is only 20 seconds long. Thank you Weird Al Yankovich. Malfoy the Bouncing Ferret (To the tune of Harvey the Wonder Hamster) *sang while Draco is bouncing* Ron, Harry and the rest of the Gryffs: Malfoy, Malfoy, Malfoy the boucing ferret, He bounces up, and he bounces down, The Gryffindors laugh as a Slyth hits the ground! Malfoy, Malfoy, Malfoy the bouncing ferret! Ron: Hey, Draco! *McGonagall comes and saves Draco* ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- 79% obsessed with Harry Potter Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Oct 9 07:23:20 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:23:20 +1000 Subject: Lugubrious lamps, Dementors, & HP obsession Message-ID: <004c01c15093$65adfb40$5e92aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27351 Luke: > Right, I meant I needed to regroup and reconsider my point about it being possible the boggart could only do psychological things, because you had brought up the effect on the lights (albeit for an unrelated reason), which would not be psychological.< Ahaaa, but if staircases change depending on the day, and blank walls can pretend to be doors, and ceilings can imitate the sky, and painted pears can be ticklish, why can't lights get depressed when a Dementor turns up? We Muggles should be cautious with our assumptions about the Wizarding world. For all we know, the lamps in Lupin's classroom could be seeing horrible visions of lamp-crushing leprechauns bearing hammers and buckets of water, and are fainting away with terror... >Cindy (who half-wonders whether Fudge's awful behavior in GoF is some evidence that he in fact has been Kissed) How sentient do people think Dementors are? We already know that they can communicate on quite a sophisticated level with Fudge, when necessary, and sense human emotions (I do wonder about the ability of Dementors posted around Hogwarts to detect someone (e.g. Sirius) flying in from miles overhead on a broom covered in an Invisibility Cloak, as Hermione implies they can in PoA: on the ground their range certainly doesn't seem to be that great. A JKR easy out?). All the same, nasty creatures that they seem to wizards, what do you think *their* POV is? Maybe it's not their fault that they live off other people's sucked-out happiness. Hey, we all have to eat. Perhaps their Kiss is really a sign of affection, their way of relieving people of the soul, the seat of torment. Perhaps they wanted to kiss Harry because they liked him! Perhaps Fudge is their only friend, and they feel tortured and marginalised in the wizard world... (err, OK, I'll stop now) On the chairs vs benches debate: I went to visit some friends for dinner last night, friends who like HP, without the fervour that leads people to join lists like this one. The female of these friends started exulting about her Bujold (?) list (which I believe some people here are also on...?), and I expounded some of the topics covered here. When I told her about the "is Ron a seer" and "is Snape a vampire" and the "which girl will Harry end up with" debates, told her about the size of the Lexicon, and the heated discussions on the number of students at Hogwarts and the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes, she thought this was one of the funniest things she'd ever heard. Wait 'til I tell her about the raging furore over whether Hogwarts students sit on benches or chairs... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lake4fam at earthlink.net Tue Oct 9 08:21:14 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:21:14 -0000 Subject: Query re CoS: Platform 9&3/4, magic, and Dobby Message-ID: <9puc1q+q2sn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27352 IIRC, in PoA we are told that house elves cannot do magic, because they are not allowed wands. Winky is accused of conjuring the Dark Mark, and the accusation seemed to be upheld because they found her with Harry's pilfered wand. How, then, did Dobby manage to seal off the entry to Platform 9 & 3/4? He certainly would not have been acting with Malfoy's per- mission, and would have had to take one of the family's wands. And to what horrible punishment would he have to subject himself? If this has been discussed before, would one of the loyal cadre be so kind as to direct me to the proper messages? And if not, would Luke or Rowena be so kind as to enlighten me? Thank you. dittany/custodienne - who got struck by a thought while cleaning the boys' bathroom & listening to CoS From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Oct 9 09:05:14 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:05:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Readability (was a really long multi-subject header) In-Reply-To: <9ptpfa+2q6b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011009090514.62191.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27353 caliburncy at yahoo.com ha scritto: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27354 Hi everybody! Sorry all you Hugh Grant fans, and congrats all you Alan Cummings fans: http://www.peoplenews.com/news/0,3430,7167,00.html The link will lead you to an article in which Scotsman Alan Cummings of Spy Kids fame is presented as the actor portraying Lockhart in CoS. As of today, but who knows what tomorrow will bring... Martin (who believes Mrs Norris is Filch's deamon) From lotusmoondragon at aol.com Tue Oct 9 11:43:24 2001 From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:43:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chairs & MOVIE, Robes, and Merchandising Message-ID: <16c.21783df.28f43cdc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27355 In a message dated 10/8/2001 7:35:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, klhurt at yahoo.com writes: > Seems like a Flint: chairs through PoA and benches in GoF. > Not necessarily. There is a possibility of doing some redecorating. Or the school could have switched to benches because of the added visitors from Durmstrang and Beauxbatons. Like someone mentioned before, benches allow for more people to sit, and aren't as cumbersome as chairs can be. On a different note, am I the only person who hates the robes in the movie? There is no evidence in canon that they wear those tacky Catholic school-type uniforms under their robes. To the contrary, there are several instances in canon that support the notion they don't wear anything other than under garments under them. I hate the idea of them making the robes more like bath robes and less like the traditional robes of Witches and Wizards. Here are some of my examples: In SS, page 110: (Hermione said) "You'd better hurry up and put your robes on, I've just been up to the from to ask the conductor, and he says we're nearly there. You haven't been fighting, have you? You'll be in trouble before we even get there!" "Scabbers has been fighting, not us," said Ron, scowling at her. "Would you mind leaving while we change?" Also in SS, page 90: Harry woke at five o'clock the next morning and was too excited and nervous to go back to sleep. He got up and pulled on his jeans because he didn't wan to walk into the station in his wizard's robes - he'd change on the train. In PoA, page 258: Harry took off his black school robes, removed his wand from his pocket, and stuck it inside the T-shirt he was going to wear under his Quidditch robes. (No mention of the sweaters they have on in the movie preview) In GoF, page 244: Harry, whose attention had been focused completely upon Madame Maxime, now noticed that about a dozen boys and girls, all, by the look of them, in their late teens, had emerged from the carriage and were now standing behind Madame Maxime. They were shivering, which was unsurprising, given that their robes seemed to be made of fine silk, and none of them were wearing cloaks. There is also a scene in PoA (which I can't find) were Harry sneaks of to Hogsmead. He is very cold because he forgot to bring his cloak. Also, the scene at the Quidditch World Cup, with Archie stating that he has to have some "air on his private" (or something of the sort) indicates that it's robes and nothing else in the Wizarding world. Am I the only one who took it that way? And lastly, who else is disappointed in the merchandising? I am tired of who ever is drawing Harry making him look like a geek. And what's with the broken glasses? It clearly states his glasses were fixed in SS. (And I can't find where! If anyone can find this passage, I would be grateful!) Lotus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 13:08:55 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:08:55 -0400 Subject: MOVIE: Crabbe and Goyle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27356 The Sunday Times identifies Crabbe and Goyle the opposite from Vanity Fair. It goes to show that no one can tell them apart except their mothers and Draco. Times: http://www.thespellbinder.com/culture/st/draco.html VF: http://www.thespellbinder.com/culture/dcg.html I hope the Times is correct, because I was fussing about the bristly hair having been wrongly assigned to Crabbe. Amy Z who really has more important things to worry about, but none that are this much fun _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 9 13:29:56 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:29:56 -0000 Subject: Double Weasley defection In-Reply-To: <20011009042405.13617.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9puu4l+4d1k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27357 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., laura hickman wrote: > UGH.... I believe the only Weasely that might go to > the other side (dark side) would be Percy because he's > so blinded by following rules... the whole Bill and > Charlie on the other side theory is just a bit to > easy. I tend to think Bill is firmly in Dumbledore's camp, as evident by his willingness to help spread the word of Voldemort's return. Besides, I suspect Dumbledore's team will soon be in dire need of a first-rate curse breaker. I've already given my thoughts on Percy, and let's just say that Percy is going to have to learn a few things the hard way. Charlie. Hmmm. I haven't formed an opinion on him yet, although he seems to be a nice guy who is ready to help whenever needed. Contrast Percy with Charlie for a minute. When Ron sends Percy an owl for details about Crouch, Percy is a bit short with Ron. But when Ron needs Charlie to round up some friends and fly from Romania to retrieve an illegal dragon, Charlie is on the job, no questions asked. So I think Charlie is in contention for the title of Nicest Weasley, so I have a hard time thinking he might go over to the Dark Side. I don't like his odds for surviving through 7 books, however. Cindy (who is developing a bit of a thing for men with big shiny burns on their arms) From vderark at bccs.org Tue Oct 9 14:20:54 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:20:54 -0000 Subject: Movie bruhaha In-Reply-To: <9ptsv9+era6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv146+rv93@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27358 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Littlered32773 at y... wrote: > > Robes-What do you mean "They are the wrong kind"? Are they described > are sorted. When Hermione sneaks the spare robes, she could have > sneaked spare Slytherin robes, but didn't feel the need to say so, as > it would be obvious to them The incident in question isn't the spare robes. It's the fact that Harry and Ron didn't know that Penelope was a Ravenclaw on sight. They would have known that if she had been wearing all the house- specific stuff we see in the movie. By the way, if you have a little time and want to read an excellent essay, check out the Voldemort page in the Lexicon. Wednesday wrote a WONDERFUL history of the character along with a timeline. Good stuff. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 14:16:50 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:16:50 -0000 Subject: MOVIE discrepancies: Quirrell, KXC, brooms, glasses Message-ID: <9pv0si+h54r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27359 Kelly wrote: > If Voldemort was 'indwelling' Quirrell when Harry met him at the Leaky > Cauldron, Quirrell wouldn't have been able to shake his hand: > "P-P-Potter" stammered Professor Quirrell, grasping Harry's hand,.... Ooh, excellent point! Now, if the movie deals with this by *not* having Quirrell shake his hand, I'll shake the writer's hand for giving such a good, sneaky clue early on that there is something wrong with this guy, and I won't sweat the detail of the exact date V took possession of the back of Q's head. If, however, Quirrell touches Harry without wincing in the Leaky Cauldron, shall we all make a pact to leap up at that moment in our respective cineplexes and cry foul? Re: Hagrid dropping Harry off, the intervening month is unimportant for showing angst, but it's important for making the dates work. +Hagrid finds Harry, and takes him to Diagon Alley, on his birthday, July 31: very important, though more from a character than a plot standpoint. +The Hogwarts Express leaves on September 1: moderately important, though so far not essential to any plot point. Hmm. Harry not knowing how to get onto the platform is extremely important for meeting the Weasleys. From a plot standpoint it's dispensable, but from a character standpoint it's very precious, at least to me. Maybe Hagrid will drop him off prematurely and Harry will realize he doesn't know how to get on? Re: the broom, I'm going to defend the filmmakers to the death on this one. There is no way to argue it is canon; in the book, the package isn't clearly identifiable as a broom except by feel. However, I think its being visible is in keeping with the spirit of the scene. For all McGonagall's hush-hush stuff, a broomstick is a very obvious package, and in any case, everyone knows what Harry's been sent about 10 minutes after he's been sent it. There's no deciding for sure until November 16, but I'll keep 2 Sickles in reserve for S.A.D. membership (spending the rest, of course, on movie tickets). Lotus wrote: > And what's with the broken glasses? It clearly states his glasses were fixed in SS. (And I can't find > where! If anyone can find this passage, I would be grateful!) They are fixed in CoS, by Mr. Weasley, chapter 4. I am puzzled by the discrepancy between the merchandise and the movie. His glasses are intact in every still I've seen. 38 days to go, Amy Z ----------------------------------------------------- Those who have been stung by a Billywig suffer giddiness followed by levitation. Generations of young Australian witches and wizards have attempted to catch Billywigs and provoke them into stinging in order to enjoy these side effects . . . -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them ----------------------------------------------------- From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Oct 9 14:16:32 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:16:32 -0400 Subject: Robes (was Movie bruhaha) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27360 Steve The Lexiconographer wrote: > > The incident in question isn't the spare robes. It's the fact that > Harry and Ron didn't know that Penelope was a Ravenclaw on sight. > They would have known that if she had been wearing all the house- > specific stuff we see in the movie. But it seems that outside of classes, they don't wear the robes; they wear things like Weasley Sweaters. Since they saw Penelope during holiday-time, it would be completely within canon that they wouldn't be in robes at all, but in "casual" clothing. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 14:19:34 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:19:34 -0000 Subject: POV in GoF, Lupin, Chairs v. benches, Elf magic, Mrs. N Message-ID: <9pv11m+j5in@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27361 Cindy wrote: > First, it seems really odd that JKR gives us the > viewpoint of Bryce, a minor and unimportant character who is going to > die in a few minutes anyway. In some ways, it seems like a waste. Bingo. Frank's death *is* a waste. JKR makes us feel it more intensely by letting us into his head. You can certainly have sharp sympathy for a character you only see from the outside, but it's particularly wrenching to feel a scene from a character's point of view and then have him die. Cindy wrote: > I never liked this business about > Lupin curling up as a harmless wolf in his office. It is too messy, > and leaves open the possibility that someone will discover him in his > wolf-state. Aw, please don't take this out, O Rewriter of the HP Books! It's such a sweet image for us Lupinlovers, and it also really brings home the fact that the man turns into a wolf, something I find hard to absorb even when I read the scene where he actually transforms. Also, who's going to walk in? Students can't get into teachers' offices, and the staff all know he's a werewolf. I can just see the house-elves coming in to tend the fire and tiptoeing around curled-up Lupin. Cindy wrote: > As a member of the "Bench" team, I'll have to do some more nit- > picking to see if we can overtake the "Chairs" group. Well, for a start, it's not fair for the "chairs" team to use the head table as an example. The teachers could easily have chairs; it's more dignified, it's easier on elderly bodies, and there are only a couple dozen at most at the Head Table . I personally like the Sunday magical floating cushions theory best. dittany/custodienne wrote: > IIRC, in PoA we are told that house elves cannot do magic, because > they are not allowed wands. Winky is accused of conjuring the Dark > Mark, and the accusation seemed to be upheld because they found her > with Harry's pilfered wand. House elves do have powerful magic (CoS 3) and are allowed to use at least some of it (things they do for their jobs, e.g. send food up from the kitchens to the tables). They aren't allowed wands, but they have other ways of doing magic. They can clearly do some things that humans can't, e.g. Apparate (or the equivalent) in Hogwarts. > Martin (who believes Mrs Norris is Filch's deamon) That explains everything, doesn't it? Amy Z ------------------------------------------------------ "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry said furiously. "Look at the Dursleys!" "Excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ------------------------------------------------------ From vderark at bccs.org Tue Oct 9 14:26:36 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:26:36 -0000 Subject: Robes (was Movie bruhaha) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pv1es+3d5a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27362 Heidi the Goddess of Law wrote: > > But it seems that outside of classes, they don't wear the robes; they wear > things like Weasley Sweaters. Since they saw Penelope during holiday-time, > it would be completely within canon that they wouldn't be in robes at all, > but in "casual" clothing. Excellent point. And it just points out the VAST amount of day-to-day real life information we are never given in the books. Just think how incredibly difficult it must have been to actually create the world that's in the books--you have to think of things like doorknobs, not just the names of classes or what color the headmaster's hair is. They have to invent almost everything! And then we fans debate every decision... Steve From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 14:38:27 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:38:27 -0000 Subject: Nicest Weasley Nominations In-Reply-To: <9puu4l+4d1k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv253+u60a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27363 Cindy wrote: > When Ron sends Percy an > owl for details about Crouch, Percy is a bit short with Ron. But > when Ron needs Charlie to round up some friends and fly from Romania > to retrieve an illegal dragon, Charlie is on the job, no questions > asked. So I think Charlie is in contention for the title of Nicest > Weasley, Also, read his letter to Ron in PS/SS 14: he's very nice, asks how he's doing, signs it "Love." If I had to pick a favorite Weasley it would be Ron hands down, and in any case comparisons are odious, but Charlie definitely stands out as a particulary nice guy. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------- "Someone attacking you, Harry?" Seamus asked sleepily. -HP and the Goblet of Fire -------------------------------------------------------- From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 14:44:58 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:44:58 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: The Turban & Other Wrongs In-Reply-To: <20011009014947.40129.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9pv2ha+8a6t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27364 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > --- prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > They shouldn't? Where does it say that? Everybody > > seems to be able > > to tell instantly who is in what house and what year > > they are. If > > not the crests, how do they do it? (Hermione could > > have easily > > pinched the robes from a common laundry.) > > When Harry and Ron were looking for the Slytherin > common room as Crabbe and Goyle, they asked a > Ravenclaw for directions. ;) Of course, maybe the > patch was covered up in some way during this scene. > > > Andrea > > ===== > "Reality is for people who lack imagination." Two things: (1) They are very nervous and not thinking straight. (2) "Excuse me", said Ron, hurrying up to her, "We've forgotten the way to our common room." "I beg your pardon?" said the girl stiffly, "*Our* common room? *I'm* a Ravenclaw." Ron did not say she's from Slytherin. He asked for directions to "our" common room. The girl took it to include herself. Marcus From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Tue Oct 9 14:45:40 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:45:40 -0000 Subject: The obviousness of the broom (was Re: Chairs & MOVIE) In-Reply-To: <9ptdma+ptcc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv2ik+mm30@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27365 But if they had put the broom in a box they woulnd't have had to put a broom in a box. Thats to say the owl could carry a light packet made up only of paper; and cutting the shots would have shown a broom coming out of similar wrapping a few moments later. Magic cinema style. No they wanted the broom shown flown in for some reason... Edis > -Luke-caliburncy at y... wrote: quite possible, if they aren't changing the scene for reasons of > length, is that there was a logistical problem for the owl. It sounds like it was an absolute nightmare for him to carry that package just for reasons of weight, and they almost didn't think they could pull it off. Putting the broom in a box, as I seem to recall it was in the book, would only have exacerbated their difficulty in making it possible for the owl to carry it. From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 14:58:12 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:58:12 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Chairs In-Reply-To: <9ptl03+6o3b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv3a4+fpia@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27366 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., virtualworldofhp at y... wrote: > Unless they are detached, but that doesn't make sense either. > With several people (up to a hundred plus?) moving a bench > backwards at the same time--it would most likely fall over--very > impractical. Why would several hundred people or even several dozen be sitting on one bench anyway? It seems to me that a non-fixed bench would hold at most 4-6 people and that they would have several of these instead of some unstable dekameter-long monstrosity. FWIW, in reading the Great Hall scenes, I imagined a room like the Rockefeller College commons room in Madison Hall at Princeton, my undergraduate school. There we ate at long tables with individual high-backed chairs, in a room with the usual collegiate gothic appointments (fireplaces, stained glass windows, stone floors, dark paneling, etc.). Now if we could have only had the crests and the cool robes. :^) Indeed, a lot of what I imagined Hogwarts to be was colored by my experience at Princeton along with a trip to London a few years back. ....Craig From tmayor at mediaone.net Tue Oct 9 15:01:16 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:01:16 -0000 Subject: No book till 2003????? Message-ID: <9pv3fs+fbgq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27367 Did anyone else see this OOTP item in that venerable journal, Parade Magazine? "JK Rowling plans to publish the fifth book in late 2002 or early 2003." Gah! Is that way, way later than they'd said previously, or was my info just out of date? ~Rosmerta From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 15:01:41 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:01:41 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw Penelope (Was: Movie bruhaha) In-Reply-To: <9pv146+rv93@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv3gl+v7ct@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27368 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > The incident in question isn't the spare robes. It's the fact that > Harry and Ron didn't know that Penelope was a Ravenclaw on sight. > They would have known that if she had been wearing all the house- > specific stuff we see in the movie. > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Are you sure about that? Harry and Ron are extremely nervous and run up to the first person they see coming out of the dungeons and asks where is "our" common room. She (also nervous since she's been making out with Percy and hoping not to be seen) takes it to mean they thought she was a Slytherin. The "our" could have just as easily meant Harry and Ron. As she walks away eyeing them suspiciously, they were too flustered to disabuse her of that notion. Mark Marcus From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 15:29:58 2001 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (Littlered32773 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:29:58 -0000 Subject: Robes, and Merchandising In-Reply-To: <16c.21783df.28f43cdc@aol.com> Message-ID: <9pv55m+jsh8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27369 lotusmoondragon at a... wrote: > On a different note, am I the only person who hates the robes in the movie? Probably not, but I'm not in your camp there! > There is no evidence in canon that they wear those tacky Catholic >school-type uniforms under their robes. To the contrary, there are >several instances in canon that support the notion they don't wear >anything other than under garments under them. I hate the idea of >them making the robes more like bath robes and less like the >traditional robes of Witches and Wizards. As someone who wore a Catholic uniform, I think I should be offended. I'm not though as I'm sure I said it a million times while wearing them. :) In the Sunday Times article, the designer defends her use of uniforms as something that would scream English Boarding School to the world. It makes sense to me that they would have to wear some type of uniform under them. I don't however think the robes look like bathrobes. I rather like them. If you asked a hundred people what "traditional" witches and wizards robes look like, you MIGHT get the exact same answer 10-15 times. Everyone sees them differently. In one of my costume design courses in college (I have a BFA in theatre design), we were given an assignment to design costumes for "Peter and the Wolf" and not one out of 22 designs looked anything alike. I've designed "A Street Car Named Desire" at 3 different theatres, and not one show looked even remotely alike, because each director had a different "vision" (but don't get me started on that!). One director gave me several bags of different kinds of potpourrie, each with a different characters name on it, and said "I want them to look like that" Crazy? Absolutely, but it was one of the best shows I've ever designed. It's all about the "vision" and traslating that vision into something concrete. Examples: > In SS, page 110: (Hermione said) "You'd better hurry up and put your robes on > "Would you mind leaving while we change?" Why couldn't they also have to put their uniforms on? She would need to leave for that too. > Also in SS, page 90: Harry woke at five o'clock the next morning and was too > excited and nervous to go back to sleep. He got up and pulled on his jeans > because he didn't wan to walk into the station in his wizard's robes - he'd > change on the train. If he didn't want to wear his robes, why would he want to wear his uniform? I never wanted to wear my uniform if I didn't have to. > In PoA, page 258: Harry took off his black school robes, removed his wand > from his pocket, and stuck it inside the T-shirt he was going to wear under > his Quidditch robes. (No mention of the sweaters they have on in the movie > preview) True, no mention of the sweater, but why couldn't he wear a t-shirt under that? Most sweaters don't have pockets, and he would need something to hold his wand. BTW, I LOVE the Quidditch uniforms. I like that they're a blend of Polo and Cricket uniforms. VERY English. > In GoF, page 244: Harry, whose attention had been focused completely upon > Madame Maxime, now noticed that about a dozen boys and girls, all, by the > look of them, in their late teens, had emerged from the carriage and were now > standing behind Madame Maxime. They were shivering, which was unsurprising, > given that their robes seemed to be made of fine silk, and none of them were > wearing cloaks. They could have thinner robes (and uniforms) at Beauxbatons which I imagine is somewhere in the south of France, and aren't really appropriate for English winters, even if they have something on underneath them. > There is also a scene in PoA (which I can't find) were Harry sneaks >of to Hogsmead. He is very cold because he forgot to bring his >cloak. Ever go outside in the middle of winter fully dressed but without a coat? You'd still be cold. > Also, the scene at the Quidditch World Cup, with Archie stating that he has > to have some "air on his private" (or something of the sort) indicates that > it's robes and nothing else in the Wizarding world. Maybe Archie's in the Scottish camp, and like many kilt wearers, likes to go comando. Or maybe, once they leave school (and uniforms) behind, they have more substantial robes (ie the teacher's robes) and don't need to wear anything else under them if they don't want to. > And lastly, who else is disappointed in the merchandising? I am tired of who > ever is drawing Harry making him look like a geek. > No, you're not the only one. I don't like the sketches of Harry. He does look like a geek, and he's so clearly not. Slon From blaise_writer at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 15:33:26 2001 From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:33:26 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: casting call for CoS in Oxford press Message-ID: <9pv5c6+6gjq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27370 I was looking at the Oxford 'daily info' website http://www.dailyinfo.co.uk and spotted an ad saying 'Would you like to act in the next Harry Potter film. Of course you would.' It turns out they are looking for a suitable Tom Riddle and young Hagrid. The descriptions of the two characters they gave was as follows: "Tom Riddle: playing age 15-18. Not unlike an older version of Harry in look and mind. Seemingly nice, but turns out to be something else ... charmingly sinister. (Lead). Standard English accent." "Young Hagrid: Playing age 15-18. A young Robbie Coltrane! (One scene.)" They requested a photo, height, age and contact details, sent to Karen Lindsay-Stewart, PO Box 2301, London W1A 1PT. Just thought it might be of interest, Blaise From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 9 15:42:14 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:42:14 -0000 Subject: POV in GoF, Lupin, Chairs v. benches, Elf magic, Mrs. N In-Reply-To: <9pv11m+j5in@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv5sm+3765@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27371 Amy wrote: > Well, for a start, it's not fair for the "chairs" team to use the head > table as an example. The teachers could easily have chairs; it's more > dignified, it's easier on elderly bodies, and there are only a couple > dozen at most at the Head Table . I > personally like the Sunday magical floating cushions theory best. > Just between you and me, Amy, I am not sure that the "chairs" team is playing fair with us. They are claiming ownership to all references to "seat," they argue that "budge up" and make room could refer to chairs instead of benches, and they cling to the questionable assumption that benches cannot scrape the floor because they must be tethered to the tables like an elementary school cafeteria. I think it is high time the "bench" team took a stand. In GoF, Harry looks at the staff table and notices empty seats and speculates about who should be sitting there. That shows that the staff table must always have chairs, because it isn't likely that Harry would notice an empty piece of bench. But throughout the books, Harry doesn't take note of empty seats at the house tables and wonder where other students are, which suggests that the students always sit on benches. Indeed, if you tally the number of times Harry does NOT take note of empty seats at the house tables and score each one as a point for the "bench" team, the "bench" team wins in a rout. Game, set, match. Cindy From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 15:44:40 2001 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (Littlered32773 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:44:40 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw Penelope (Was: Movie bruhaha) In-Reply-To: <9pv3gl+v7ct@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv618+nv0v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27372 "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > > The incident in question isn't the spare robes. It's the fact that > > Harry and Ron didn't know that Penelope was a Ravenclaw on sight. > > They would have known that if she had been wearing all the house- > > specific stuff we see in the movie. Doesn't Penelope have have long curly hair? If she does, maybe her hair covered her crest. Since she was down in the general area where the boys knew the Slytherin common room to be, it seems logical that they would assume she was a Slytherin, even if they couldn't see the crest. Maybe when she says "I'm in Ravenclaw" (thought it's not allluded to in the book), she could sweep her hair back and they could clearly see the Ravenclaw crest before she walks away. She obviously knew they weren't in Ravenclaw (possibly by the crest). True, she might just know they're not in her house, but I don't know that she would know EVERYONE in Ravenclaw. Remember the Gryffindor quidditch team didn't know who Colin was when he was taking pictures until Harry assures them he's not a spy and in their own house. I'm guessing that they just might not know everybody. I certainly didn't know all the people in other class years when I was in school, so I would assume that they wouldn't necessarily know everyone in every year in their house by site, except maybe by their crest. From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 15:57:13 2001 From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:57:13 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? Message-ID: <9pv6op+hfub@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27373 According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least favorite of the four books among people on this list. Out of 400 responses, only 5% picked CoS as their favorite out of the HP series (58% picked PoA). Out of 251 votes for least favorite book, CoS was chosen as least favorite by 70%. Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many people not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the plot, something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? And if you can identify a gripe about CoS, can you think of a way to fix it? Laura (who owns 2 dog-eared copies each of PoA, GoF, PS/SS, but only one practically new copy of CoS) From joym999 at aol.com Tue Oct 9 16:06:24 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:06:24 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9pv6op+hfub@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv7a0+hgkm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27374 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote: > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least > favorite of the four books among people on this list. [snip] What exactly is it that causes so many people > not to like CoS? Excellent question, Laura. I, too, count CoS as my least favorite but I'm not exactly sure why. One thing I found interesting -- according to the interviews in this month's Nickolodean magazine, Daniel Radcliffe's favorite HP book is CoS. The other two actors interviewed (the ones playing Ron and Hermione) like PoA the best. --Joywitch From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 9 16:30:36 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:30:36 -0000 Subject: Is Buckbeak Indispensable (& Other PoA Edits)? Message-ID: <9pv8nc+amft@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27375 My PS/SS is 309 pages and the movie is 2:20 minutes or so (I think). PoA is almost 50% longer (435 pages), so if the movie is 50% longer, it could easily exceed 3 hours -- like Schindler's List -- which really would be too long, IMHO. So I was wondering what, if anything, could be cut out of PoA to make the movie length manageable without destroying the story. It's a tough challenge, because PoA is very tightly plotted. I was thinking that PoA might work without the whole Buckbeak subplot. Buckbeak primarily serves as a vehicle for Black's escape, and secondarily to give Hagrid something to do and be concerned about. Maybe it would work just as well for Harry to give Sirius a broom instead for his escape, specifically the Firebolt, thereby allowing Sirius' generousity to his godson to be the means of his own escape and allowing Harry to make a sacrifice to save Sirius. <*dabs at eyes due to the emotional impact*> Instead of using the time- turner to rescue Buckbeak, Harry and Hermione would go to the broom shed and get two school brooms and also retrieve the Firebolt. They still have to hide in the forest while they wait for Sirius to be caught and taken to Flitwick's office. Sirius could return the Firebolt to Harry by owl (Pigwidgeon would need some help there) at the train station or at the Dursleys because Harry needs it in GoF, Sirius having secured his own broom somewhere. That would eliminate Buckbeak from GoF, of course, but Buckbeak doesn't do much in that book either. Sacrificing the Buckbeak sub-plot would save a great number of pages, at least 50, because you lose half of Talon and Tealeaves, you lose the execution scenes, and you lose all the talk about Hagrid's appeal. I also think the Ravensclaw Quiddich match could be eliminated entirely without losing anything important. 11 pages saved there. Then I'd take a hatchet to Snape's Grudge and eliminate Harry's entire visit to Hogsmead with Ron where Harry throws mud at Malfoy. We would just pick things up Harry about to go to Hogsmead, but getting intercepted by Snape and taken to Snape's office for the rest of the chapter. 12 pages saved there. I'd also remove about half of the dozens of relentless foreshadowing references to the time-turner. Just a few pages saved. Any other ideas? Cindy (who doesn't want to even think about what it would take to cut down GoF) From sweet_brunette27 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 16:42:39 2001 From: sweet_brunette27 at hotmail.com (Christina Davis) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:42:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27376 Good question. It's been my least favorite book since I read all four but I had no idea that was also the popular opinion. I don't know why this is...I believe it's the shortest book (I don't have my books on me so I could be quite wrong)...for me I think it comes down to it has the least meat of all the books...CoS does have Tom Riddle, the confirmation of Harry as a Parselmouth, the Gryfinndor sword and a few other important canon items but it still seems lacking. The other three books all emotionally grabbed me, kept me glued to my seat until I was finished with the book and left me speechless, the second did none of these. Christy http://www.thepiratequeen.net "I plan to make a diorama," said Draco solemnly. "No," said Lupin patiently, "not that kind of creativity." "But it'll be an evil diorama. And then Harry can destroy it." Lupin's voice held a warning tone. "Draco." -"Draco Veritas" by Cassandra Claire >From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? >Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:57:13 -0000 > >According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least >favorite of the four books among people on this list. Out of 400 >responses, only 5% picked CoS as their favorite out of the HP series >(58% picked PoA). Out of 251 votes for least favorite book, CoS was >chosen as least favorite by 70%. > >Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many people >not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the plot, >something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? And if you can >identify a gripe about CoS, can you think of a way to fix it? > >Laura (who owns 2 dog-eared copies each of PoA, GoF, PS/SS, but only >one practically new copy of CoS) > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 16:51:20 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:51:20 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9pv7a0+hgkm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pv9u8+ki9k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27377 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote: > > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least > > favorite of the four books among people on this list. > [snip] > What exactly is it that causes so many people > > not to like CoS? > > Excellent question, Laura. I, too, count CoS as my least favorite > but I'm not exactly sure why. > --Joywitch There are likely a number of reasons. Personnally I have two big reasons. (1) Logical. It has always bothered me that Dumbledore had access to the exact clues as Harry, yet he couldn't figure it out. He knew Moaning Myrtle had died from the last attack. If asked, she would have told him about the sink (where). He knew Hagrid was involved somehow. If he had asked, Hagrid would have told him all about Aragog and the monster he refused to name. The monster petrified people. A little time in the library would have shown him it was a basilisk (what). Putting a watch on the bathroom sink would have shown him Ginny (who). Further investigation would have revealed the diary (how). He already knew the -why-. (2) Plot development. Each book pushes the story along. CoS seems to push it the least of all the canon. If the book was dropped, would we really miss its unique plot points that much? Most of them are covered in later books. We would miss Lockhart, but he was just a one-off joke anyway. Marcus From margdean at erols.com Tue Oct 9 16:15:48 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:15:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? References: <9pv6op+hfub@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BC322B4.1A355B41@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27378 justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com wrote: > Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many people > not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the plot, > something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? And if you can > identify a gripe about CoS, can you think of a way to fix it? In my case the reason is simple: Gilderoy Lockhart gets on my nerves in a BIG way. As in, fingernails-on-a-blackboard time. Intellectually I can appreciate that he's a wonderfully realized character and I wouldn't ask JKR to change a hair on his exquisitely coiffed head, but that doesn't mean I personally want to be in the same book with him very often . . . --Margaret Dean From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 9 16:56:59 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:56:59 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9pv7a0+hgkm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pva8r+9p6q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27379 Laura wrote: > > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least > > favorite of the four books among people on this list. > [snip] > What exactly is it that causes so many people > > not to like CoS? > Joywitch wrote: > Excellent question, Laura. I, too, count CoS as my least favorite > but I'm not exactly sure why. I didn't care for CoS, either, and I had to be persuaded to read PoA to get back on track. I think I had a couple of problems: 1. Lockhart, Lockhart, and Lockhart. Something just didn't work with him. I can't put my finger on it, but he tried to straddle "amusing" and "annoying", but wound up firmly in "annoying". In PoA and GoF, the DADA teacher is pivotal, and it is easy to like and appreciate Lupin and Moody, albeit for different reasons. Maybe it's that Lockhart was one-dimensional compared to Lupin and Moody, and Lockhart never showed us a side of him that was even a little unexpected or pleasant. Lupin, for instance, has a vulnerability (that werewolf problem) and so does Lockhart (ego and being a total fraud). But Lockhart's vulnerability is entirely of his own making, so it is hard to muster any sympathy. How could Lockhart be fixed? Um, I'll have to get back to you on that. 2. Climactic scene with Riddle. "Phoenix tears ..." said Riddle quietly, staring at Harry's arm. "Of course . . healing powers . . . I forgot . . . " 'Nuff said. 3. Huge believability problem in Aragog. Harry and Ron are at Hagrid's hut, having sneaked out under the Invisibility Cloak. They decide to follow a trail of spiders into the forest. So we get this: "Harry left the Invisibility Cloak on Hagrid's table. There would be no need for it in the pitch-dark forest." Huh? I think we need a better motivation for them not to just put the cloak in Harry's pocket. Perhaps they bring it, but they aren't using it when they are captured, and then Harry doesn't want to risk making a sudden movement to retrieve it while he is negotiating with the giant spiders. Perhaps the spiders can see through the cloak. But we need something -- anything -- to make this work. 4. Another believability problem in Aragog: the Flying Ford Anglia rescue is not satisfying for me. I'd have preferred that Harry and Ron had saved themselves somehow. Too bad, because JKR really had me concerned for the welfare of our hero in that scene, and then that darn car happens to turn up. 5. I didn't see a satisfactory explanation for why Riddle doesn't kill Harry with Harry's wand when he has so many chances to do so. Why is the giant basilisk the preferred means of Harry's death? In GoF, the need to motivate the DEs was a plausible reason why Voldemort might prefer a duel rather than just killing Harry outright. I didn't see any plausible explanation in CoS. Maybe Harry ought to lose his wand in the explosion that caves in the tunnel, I don't know. CoS did have its moments, though. In fairness, I'll say that Dobby was entertaining, the scenes with the Dursleys were great, and the gnomes and scenes at the burrow were wonderful. Cindy (who must admit that, even with its shortcomings, CoS is still better than anything she could write) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 16:57:16 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:57:16 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9pv7a0+hgkm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pva9c+4g04@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27380 justanopinion (Laura) wrote: > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least > > favorite of the four books among people on this list. > [snip] > What exactly is it that causes so many people > > not to like CoS? Joywitch wrote: > Excellent question, Laura. I, too, count CoS as my least favorite > but I'm not exactly sure why. One thing I found interesting -- > according to the interviews in this month's Nickolodean magazine, > Daniel Radcliffe's favorite HP book is CoS. The other two actors > interviewed (the ones playing Ron and Hermione) like PoA the best. At the time he was cast, Daniel Radcliffe had only read the first two (and I have serious reservations about their having cast any child who found the books that unaddictive ). Considering the kind of year he's had, maybe he still hasn't read PoA and GoF. To Laura's question. I wouldn't conclude from the poll that anyone *doesn't like* CoS. I agonized over how to rank 1, 2, and 4 (PoA being my clear favorite), and I wouldn't say that I "don't like" the one I ranked last (PS/SS). I love them all. I often think that I would have ranked PS/SS over CoS were it not for the fact that I read CoS first. For me, CoS evokes the nostalgia of my introduction to the HP universe, with all the related emotions that most people associate with PS/SS. OTOH, there are other things I like better about CoS than PS/SS, but I won't change your thread to "CoS is not my least favorite HP book. Why?" Not yet. Amy Zandemonium hoping OoP becomes her favorite From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 17:13:08 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:13:08 -0000 Subject: Chairs v. benches In-Reply-To: <9pv5sm+3765@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvb74+k89r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27381 Cindy wrote: > Just between you and me, Amy, I am not sure that the "chairs" team is > playing fair with us. ::whispering:: I suspect the same. Don't tell them I said so! Ahem. Clearly, those who think benches don't scrape have never gone to a summer camp where they had to sit on benches. The benches don't have to be long enough to stretch all the way down a 70-person table (or, in the large-Hogwarts theory, a 250-person table); there can be many 6- or 8-foot benches lined up along each side. In either case, there would still be scraping when everyone gets up at once. The way you do it is with a "one, two, three!" or, by the end of camp, a kind of group intuition that has developed so that everyone gets up and pushes back at the same moment *without tipping the bench over.* (Once in a while, the bench does tip, creating the kind of merriment and happy memories for which summer camps are designed.) And if Hermione were in a chair, Ron wouldn't just be pestering her to scoot over, but also looking around for chairs to filch from the next table for Krum & Co. What was he going to offer them, an empty spot to stand in? If they were all sitting in chairs, wouldn't he jump up to offer his and then go get a new one for himself? Amy who thinks JKR is as consistent on this point as she is on the size of Hogwarts, namely, not at all From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 17:23:32 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:23:32 -0400 Subject: Penny (was Robes) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27382 Heidi wrote: >But it seems that outside of classes, they don't wear the robes; they >wear >things like Weasley Sweaters. Since they saw Penelope during >holiday-time, >it would be completely within canon that they wouldn't >be in robes at all, >but in "casual" clothing. Very good point. Three other possibilities: 1. Penny has long hair--maybe it is covering the crest (or is it a coat-of-arms? Amanda, please don't shoot!). 2. Harry and Ron are not thinking very clearly. They're in a terrible hurry, and are so relieved to see someone in the dungeon that they ask her about the common room without even paying attention to the details that would tell them she isn't in Slytherin. 3. Considering what Penny's just been up to, maybe she's just carrying her robe or pulling it back on or . . . Let's draw the curtain on that visual image. Amy Ziti _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 17:37:16 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:37:16 -0000 Subject: Mea culpa re: Penny (was Robes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9pvckc+usvu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27383 My bad--I responded to Heidi's Penelope post without reading the rest of the digest first, and at least one person made each of the points I did, except for the Disrobed Penelope image that no one really needed to be forced to envision. I will punish myself by staying quiet and not writing my planned dissertation on why CoS is such a wonderful book. Of course, I did the whole thing on purpose as an illustration for newbies of Things You Should Not Do. Right, that was it. =;-) Amy Z From banjoken at optonline.net Tue Oct 9 17:38:24 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:38:24 -0000 Subject: Is Buckbeak Indispensable (& Other PoA Edits)? In-Reply-To: <9pv8nc+amft@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvcmg+34rp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27384 As much as I'm willing to forgive minor details in the movie being changed, I think getting rid of Buckbeak would be too much. If you eliminate Buckbeak, not only does it change the whole rescue at the end (which I wouldn't like), but it eliminates so many other things. How long was Malfoy milking that "broken" arm for? That was an important point. Most important, I think, is that without the time turner, Harry can't conjure the patronus and rescue himself from the dementors in the forest. Getting rid of Buckbeak would change way too much, and I really don't think they would do that. Also remember that GoF is 300+ pages more than PoA. I have no idea how they're going to make that into a 2 1/2 hour movie! Ken From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de Tue Oct 9 17:42:10 2001 From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:42:10 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9pv9u8+ki9k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvcti+tovv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27385 Marcus wrote: > (2) Plot development. Each book pushes the story along. CoS seems > to push it the least of all the canon. If the book was dropped, > would we really miss its unique plot points that much? Most of them > are covered in later books. We would miss Lockhart, but he was just > a one-off joke anyway. Hmm, I see that differently. We learned that Harry was a Parselmouth - I am sure that will be important later. And we learned that the feelings of the other student can quickly sway from liking Harry to hating him. We saw it again in GoF. I believe that - judging from Fudge?s reaction - Harry will be shunned a lot in OoP. CoS kind of acclimated us to people *not* loving Harry. Ethanol From deeblite at home.com Tue Oct 9 17:43:21 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:43:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9pv6op+hfub@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011009134221.022e0210@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27386 At 03:57 PM 10/9/01 +0000, you wrote: >According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least >favorite of the four books among people on this list. Out of 400 >responses, only 5% picked CoS as their favorite out of the HP series >(58% picked PoA). Out of 251 votes for least favorite book, CoS was >chosen as least favorite by 70%. > >Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many people >not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the plot, >something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? And if you can >identify a gripe about CoS, can you think of a way to fix it? > >Laura (who owns 2 dog-eared copies each of PoA, GoF, PS/SS, but only >one practically new copy of CoS) Out of the 4 books, CoS seems to have the least impact on the ongoing story. Its almost as if you could leave it out entirely without disrupting the flow of the overall story- just say nothing major happened in Harry's second year. -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From vderark at bccs.org Tue Oct 9 17:53:08 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:53:08 -0000 Subject: Mea culpa re: Penny (was Robes) In-Reply-To: <9pvckc+usvu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvdi4+6462@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27387 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > I did, except for the Disrobed Penelope image that no one really > needed to be forced to envision. Okay, that just reminded me of one of my favorite bits in CS, especially the way Jim Dale reads it on the recording. Percy says, all aflutter, that Ginny caught him doing...something, and then Ron says: "What were you doing, Percy?" The chortling voice Dale uses there is just dripping with insinuation. It's absolutely priceless. Steve "Should Be Working" Vander Ark From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 9 17:56:35 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:56:35 -0000 Subject: Is Buckbeak Indispensable (& Other PoA Edits)? In-Reply-To: <9pvcmg+34rp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvdoj+s7j3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27388 Ken wrote: Most important, I think, is that without the time > turner, Harry can't conjure the patronus and rescue himself from the > dementors in the forest. I fear in my desire to keep my own post short, I was unclear about what gets cut. The time-turner definitely stays in the film. We just don't have Ron and Hermione discuss her course schedule again and again and again, and she only turns up unexpectedly once or twice instead of again and again and again. > Also remember that GoF is 300+ pages more than PoA. I have no idea > how they're going to make that into a 2 1/2 hour movie! > Me either. When I get out my red pen, huge hunks of GoF will hit the cutting room floor. But we can save it for another day. Cindy (wondering if Chris Columbus can be persuaded to tank the CoS movie entirely so we can get right to PoA and GoF) From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 18:21:05 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:21:05 -0000 Subject: Double Weasley defection In-Reply-To: <9puu4l+4d1k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvf6h+ad8m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27389 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., laura hickman > wrote: > > UGH.... I believe the only Weasely that might go to > > the other side (dark side) would be Percy because he's > > so blinded by following rules... I think that JKR is going to make Percy a red herring. If it ever APPEARS that Percy has become a Death Eater, I believe that it will only be because he is working as a spy for Dumbledore (he'll bail on the Ministry soon, probably). After all, Snape can't work as an effective spy any more, now that Voldemort's basically put a contract out on him, and Percy, like Tom Riddle, is very smart and was Head Boy and is very ambitious. I think he could convince Voldemort that he is Percy's role model and everyone else will also be convinced that Percy has turned bad, until a crucial moment when he turns around and makes it possible for Harry to face Voldemort one-on-one, instead of Voldemort having his army of dark wizards to support him... --Barb (Gee, how many speculations did I manage to get into that for books 5, 6 and 7? ) From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 18:47:20 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:47:20 -0000 Subject: CoS Is important/Ron's wand In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011009134221.022e0210@netmail.home.com> Message-ID: <9pvgno+ou2r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27390 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite wrote: > At 03:57 PM 10/9/01 +0000, you wrote: What exactly is it that causes so many people > >not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the plot, > >something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? > > Out of the 4 books, CoS seems to have the least impact on the > ongoing story. Its almost as if you could leave it out entirely > without disrupting the flow of the overall story- just say nothing > major happened in Harry's second year. Au contraire big time! Someone else already mentioned the revelation of Harry being a Parselmouth; he also discovers why he was in Gryffindor and not Slytherin; there is the hint that he may have received other abilities from Voldemort's attempted murder besides the Parselmouth thing; he copes with being unpopular; he receives the sword of Godric Gryffindor and phoenix tears from Fawkes by demonstrating his loyalty to Dumbledore (I believe this will be important again in OotP); we found out about Tom Riddle's school days and the reason for Hagrid's expulsion; the list goes on. Dobby was also important and will be more so, probably, as the series goes on and the status of non-human magical creatures will likely be addressed again (some of them will probably take sides in the oncoming battle between good and evil). This book is more full of dei ex machini than the others, but one that is somewhat neglected is Ron's broken wand. His wand is broken during the crash of the Anglia into the Whomping Willow, and provides comic relief when Ron tries to hex Malfoy and winds up coughing up slugs for an afternoon. The wand then saves them when Lockhart tries to use it to put a memory charm on Ron and Harry, with the hilarious result being that he instead loses HIS memory. How did Ron make it through his second year with a malfunctioning wand? It seems unlikely that he wouldn't flunk with sub-par equipment like this; clearly the whole purpose of the wand being broken to begin with was to have Lockhart's spell backfire at the end, but in the meantime, it paints a rather implausible picture of Ron's second year. --Barb From prinkj00 at uleth.ca Tue Oct 9 19:56:13 2001 From: prinkj00 at uleth.ca (Kari Prince) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:56:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Double Weasley defection References: <9pvf6h+ad8m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000a01c150fc$768394c0$5a0e428e@kennard> No: HPFGUIDX 27391 I think that JKR is going to make Percy a red herring. If it ever APPEARS that Percy has become a Death Eater, I believe that it will only be because he is working as a spy for Dumbledore (he'll bail on the Ministry soon, probably). After all, Snape can't work as an effective spy any more, now that Voldemort's basically put a contract out on him, and Percy, like Tom Riddle, is very smart and was Head Boy and is very ambitious. I think he could convince Voldemort that he is Percy's role model and everyone else will also be convinced that Percy has turned bad, until a crucial moment when he turns around and makes it possible for Harry to face Voldemort one-on-one, instead of Voldemort having his army of dark wizards to support him... --Barb Hi all! My name is Kari, and I'm sneaking in as a new addition to the list. Hope I do this right, don't violate any list rules, and don't dredge up topics you've all discussed a hundred times before. Let me know if I screw anything up. (Please, not detention with Filch! I can't handle the dustbunnies....) My two cents on Percy's character: Something has to become of him, and the way his story is going, I don't think he's headed for anything good. Percy means well and all and he is intelligent when it comes to writing articles on the thicknesses of cauldron bottoms, but is he all that smart in other regards? In my opinion, Percy is a prime candidate to become an actual death-eater. I'm sure his mother loves him, but he is somewhat of a bootlicker, and I can see him falling prey to his own ambitions and becoming lured into the whole evil scene before he even realizes the magnitude of his choices. He put his faith blindly in Crouch when he was quite possibly the closest person to the man at the moment and should have caught on that something was not quite right. Unless Percy does some major growing up in the next book or so, he's going to get himself into trouble. I can't see him playing spy for Dumbledore as Snape has done. Did I mention I'm utterly fascinated by Severus Snape? (Yeah, yeah... as are millions of others, I know.) ; ) He's a great character, and I'm holding out to see what becomes of him. It's a pleasure talking to you all, and your list is simply maaahvelous. Kari [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 19:09:37 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:09:37 -0000 Subject: Is Buckbeak Indispensable (& Other PoA Edits)? In-Reply-To: <9pv8nc+amft@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvi1h+qp1f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27392 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I was thinking that PoA might work without the whole Buckbeak > subplot. Buckbeak primarily serves as a vehicle for Black's > escape, and secondarily to give Hagrid something to do and be > concerned about. This is necessary to keep because of a) the escape b) Malfoy's injury and c)it displays Harry's affinity for animals/magical creatures. > Instead of using the time-turner to rescue Buckbeak, Harry and > Hermione would go to the broom shed and get two school brooms and > also retrieve the Firebolt. They still have to hide in the forest > while they wait for Sirius to be caught and taken to Flitwick's > office. The Time Turner is also important; they wouldn't have enough time to rescue Sirius otherwise, and since Snape doesn't know about it, he can't propose that Harry and Hermione were in two places at once (although he seems to really want to). It is also essential to keep Hermione hopping and to explain her personality quirks later in the year, when she's been sleep-deprived for a while. He also saves himself by producing the Patronus while he's using the Time Turner. > Sacrificing the Buckbeak sub-plot would save a great number of > pages, at least 50, because you lose half of Talon and Tealeaves, > you lose the execution scenes, and you lose all the talk about > Hagrid's appeal. This could be done obliquely, instead of in great detail. It wouldn't have to last long at all. > I also think the Ravensclaw Quiddich match could be eliminated > entirely without losing anything important. 11 pages saved there. Harry first notices Cho at the Quidditch match, and it is established that he can separate himself emotionally and still get the job done (he's tempted to be a "gentleman" and let her win, but he doesn't shirk his team duty). It also doesn't have to last long. > Then I'd take a hatchet to Snape's Grudge and eliminate Harry's > entire visit to Hogsmead with Ron where Harry throws mud at > Malfoy. We would just pick things up Harry about to go to > Hogsmead, but getting intercepted by Snape and taken to Snape's > office for the rest of the chapter. 12 pages saved there. This could certainly be streamlined, but it doesn't have to be eliminated. > I'd also remove about half of the dozens of relentless > foreshadowing references to the time-turner. Just a few pages > saved. The beginning of the book could be streamlined by having the blowing- up-Aunt-Marge-Grim-sighting-Knight-Bus-Harry-staying-at-the-Leaky- Cauldron bit reduced to the amount of time it would take to run the credits. These early sequences don't even have to have audible dialogue (we'll get the message if we see Uncle Vernon turning red while screaming at Harry, and if we see Aunt Marge floating to the ceiling like a zeppelin), which would make these scenes perfect for being on the screen at the same time as the opening credits with the soundtrack playing in the background... By the time the credits were done, he'd be nearing the end of the summer, getting his school supplies and preparing to take the train to school... Also, there's a great deal of verbiage in PoA that's descriptive; once we're seeing a lot of that on the screen, things will move more quickly than you'd think. It takes only a couple of seconds to show a dementor, but it could take 15-30 seconds to read a thorough description of one. --Barb From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 19:11:14 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:11:14 -0000 Subject: CoS implausible In-Reply-To: <9pvgno+ou2r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvi4i+10c3e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27393 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > How did Ron make it through his second year with a malfunctioning > wand? It seems unlikely that he wouldn't flunk with sub-par > equipment like this; clearly the whole purpose of the wand being > broken to begin with was to have Lockhart's spell backfire at the > end, but in the meantime, it paints a rather implausible picture of > Ron's second year. > > --Barb I think that is the biggest problem I have with CoS, it simply is too implausible. We are to believe that four people are attacked but not one died. Nobody met its gaze. How lucky can you get! Penelope and Hermione were sharing the same little mirror, yet the mirror was found on the floor between them. Wouldn't it be stuck in the hand of whoever was holding it? I've already complained about Dumbledore's negligence. You mentioned Ron's wand. Then there is the question as to how Ginny controlled the Basilisk without getting stoned herself. How did she go down the pipe to the chamber and get back up without getting all slimey? Or was the monster always lurking behind the sink? Must get awful boring there. Why build a huge chamber with a connecting tunnel if the beast was always going to be hiding behind the sink? There are just too many logic holes to pretend don't exist. Marcus From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 9 19:34:26 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:34:26 -0000 Subject: No book till 2003????? In-Reply-To: <9pv3fs+fbgq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvjg2+qgab@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27394 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: > Did anyone else see this OOTP item in that venerable journal, Parade > Magazine? "JK Rowling plans to publish the fifth book in late 2002 or > early 2003." Gah! Is that way, way later than they'd said previously, > or was my info just out of date? > I'm sure she will be so busy helping Chris Columbus getting the second HP installment to the silver screen that we'll be lucky if we see volume five before 2005. - CMC From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 9 19:39:07 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:39:07 -0000 Subject: Is Buckbeak Indispensable (& Other PoA Edits)? In-Reply-To: <9pvi1h+qp1f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvjor+pmjd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27395 Barb wrote: > The beginning of the book could be streamlined by having the blowing- > up-Aunt-Marge-Grim-sighting-Knight-Bus-Harry-staying-at-the-Leaky- > Cauldron bit reduced to the amount of time it would take to run the > credits. These early sequences don't even have to have audible > dialogue (we'll get the message if we see Uncle Vernon turning red > while screaming at Harry, and if we see Aunt Marge floating to the > ceiling like a zeppelin), which would make these scenes perfect for > being on the screen at the same time as the opening credits with the > soundtrack playing in the background... > > By the time the credits were done, he'd be nearing the end of the > summer, getting his school supplies and preparing to take the train > to school... > Nooooooooooooooooooo! I absolutely love everything that happens at the Durleys and Knight Bus! I can't bear to cut even one minute of it. I'd spend as much movie time there as it takes to do all of those scenes as written. Aside from the character development and amusement, we learn about Sirius from the Dursleys and Stan, we see Fudge's odd presence when Harry gets off the bus (something to do with the protections at the Dursley's). Can we compromise and chop some of the Diagon Alley stuff and keep the Durleys' and Knight Bus? Cindy ----------------- "Do they still use the cane at St. Brutus's, boy?" she barked across the table. Uncle Vernon nodded curtly behind Aunt Marge's back. "Yes," said Harry. Then, feeling he might as well do the thing properly, he added, "all the time." "Excellent," said Aunt Marge. From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com Tue Oct 9 19:47:59 2001 From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:47:59 -0400 Subject: A Possible Flint? Message-ID: <1A0B080F.4D01C584.52A758FC@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27396 I was reading HP PS/SS again last night, and I think I found a flint. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before but here it is: When Harry tells Ron and Hermione that Snape is the referee for that one Quidditch match, they tell him not to play. Harry says he has to because they don't have a reserve seeker--he's the only one, so if he doesn't play, the Gryffindor team has to forfeit. Fastforward to the end of the book where Harry is in the infirmary. I don't have the book with me, but Ron says (to Harry) something to the effect of: Slytherin won the House Cup of course and because you missed the last Quidditch game, we were steamrollered by Ravenclaw. My question is: how could they be beaten by Ravenclaw if Harry wasn't there? They don't have a reserve seeker right? My only thought was that maybe they could use a substitue but I highly doubt that. I don't know about you guys, but I wasn't in a game, I would kind of like to know who my sub. was and Ron never said. So does that qualify me for L.O.O.N. status? ***Dixie Malfoy*** From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 9 20:00:59 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:00:59 -0000 Subject: CoS implausible In-Reply-To: <9pvi4i+10c3e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvl1r+cejq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27397 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > I've already complained about Dumbledore's negligence. It has always bothered me that Dumbledore had access to the exact clues as Harry, yet he couldn't figure it out. He knew Moaning Myrtle had died from the last attack. If asked, she would have told him about the sink (where). He knew Hagrid was involved somehow. If he had asked, Hagrid would have told him all about Aragog and the monster he refused to name. The monster petrified people. A little time in the library would have shown him it was a basilisk (what). Putting a watch on the bathroom sink would have shown him Ginny (who). Further investigation would have revealed the diary (how). He already knew the -why-. I have to speak up for my favorite character here. While Dumbledore knows that Myrtle died in the last attack, he doesn't know that pipes were involved and has no reason to be suspicious of the sink. In fact Binns says Dumbledore searched the whole school, including presumably the bathroom. He must have missed the snake scratched on the sink, but it may well be undetectable to anyone who's not a Parselmouth , as Seamus implies (CoS 9). Dumbledore wouldn't neccessarily know that the gaze of a basilisk could Petrify: that is not in Hermione's excerpt or in Fantastic Beasts, which both state that the gaze causes instant death. Hermione's insight appears to be original, not a finding of her research. Hagrid would *not* tell Dumbledore about Aragog , lest Dumbledore inform the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures. In fact, Hagrid is careful to wait until Dumbledore has left the cottage before dropping his "follow the spiders" clue. As for putting a watch on the bathroom, that was done. Harry, Ron and Hermione have something of a time avoiding the watchers, and are nearly caught on various occasions by Filch, Percy and McGonagall. How Ginny evaded being seen we aren't told perhaps Tom also knows Dumbledore's method of being invisible without a cloak. If she was invisible, that might protect her from the dreaded gaze as well. In fact, if Tom was invisible when Myrtle blundered out of her stall, it would explain why she never saw him, wouldn't it? According to my theory, the lack of deaths was intentional. Tom/Ginny carefully chose victims who would be protected from the full gaze of the monster, both to keep the school from being closed and to divert suspicion from basilisks. I don't suppose Tom expected to kill even Myrtle (which gives his speech to Hagrid an extra frisson of irony) Either her glasses didn't protect her, or she wasn't wearing them at the time. Perhaps she'd taken them off to wipe her eyes. Barb wrote >How did Ron make it through his second year with a malfunctioning wand? Probably the teachers have a bit of a soft spot for Weasleys, with the exception of Snape, of course, but there's little "foolish wand waving" in Potions. I can see McGonagall and Flitwick allowing Ron a not -at-all-stellar passing grade, can't you? He would have had a hard time with finals, but they were cancelled that year. Pippin, who likes CoS very much, except for (shudder) Dobby. From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Oct 9 20:23:08 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:23:08 -0000 Subject: Is Buckbeak Indispensable (& Other PoA Edits)? In-Reply-To: <9pvjor+pmjd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvmbc+j2q9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27398 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > Can we compromise and chop some of the Diagon Alley stuff and keep > the Durleys' and Knight Bus?> Are you all meshuganeh or something? I say keep every single word of PoA and make it a five or six hour movie; I'd sit through the entire thing. Every page of that book from Harry reading about Wendelin the Weird to the Time Turner to Buckbeak is just perfect. --jenny from ravenclaw, who is shocked to find out anyone here would approve of editing any of the HP books ****************************************************************** From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 20:24:53 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:24:53 -0000 Subject: That marvelous Chamber (long) Message-ID: <9pvmel+5vr6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27399 Barb wrote: >the list goes on. Also: Harry learns what phoenix song sounds like, and the racism behind Voldemort's movement becomes apparent for the first time. Both have already come into play in GoF, and the pureblood/mixed- blood/Muggle hierarchy will no doubt continue to be a big deal. Barb asked: >How did Ron make it through his second year with a malfunctioning wand? It seems >unlikely that he wouldn't flunk with sub-par equipment like this; clearly the whole >purpose of the wand being broken to begin with was to have Lockhart's spell backfire >at the end, but in the meantime, it paints a rather implausible picture of Ron's second >year. I figure it's like car trouble: you can have a problem last for months and only kick up now and then, often enough to make the car unreliable but not often enough to be a constant problem. It's dodgy, though, because if Ron's wand doesn't malfunction pretty frequently, then its backfiring on Lockhart is too much of a coincidence. I think Jo could have sharpened this by making the problem get steadily worse, or having it improve for awhile because Ron Spellotapes it but note that the night Ginny is kidnapped he was about to re-tape it because it was getting bad again. Why don't her editors think of this? Can it be because they don't read the books 10 times over a period of a year before handing them back to her? Prefectmarcus wrote: >We are to believe that four people are attacked but not one died. Nobody met its gaze. >How lucky can you get! Penelope and Hermione were sharing the same little mirror, Well, there's your answer. Penelope and Hermione didn't get lucky; they knew how to deal with a basilisk. Justin, Colin, and Mrs. Norris are the only ones who need explaining. Okay, it's pushing it, but it's only 3 people (including Mrs. N.), not 4. >Then there is the question as to how Ginny controlled the Basilisk without getting >stoned herself. How did she go down the pipe to the chamber and get back up without >getting all slimey? Ginny didn't control the basilisk; only a Parselmouth could do that. She was important to Tom because she did things like write on the walls, kill roosters, and, of course, write in the diary, which not only "brought him back to Hogwarts" and gave his diary-self strength, but told him all sorts of things about his future self and Harry, who became his new focus. It seems it is time after all for me to write about why I love CoS. I will grant some of the plot problems, and I will grant that (thus far) the plot is the most dispensable installment in this "novel in seven parts." Also, although I find Lockhart funny, he's not nearly as funny as lots of things JKR writes; I find him overly broad. In fact, one of my chief complaints about bad comedy is that it doesn't arise from realistic characterization. JKR's comedy is often character-based and it works?e.g. Hermione breathlessly giving the original name of SPEW, which is so funny because it fits her character. Lockhart is an example of comedy overtaking character instead; it doesn't emerge from a realistic person, but instead forces a character to take shape around a joke. In short, he's a caricature, and I never find them as funny. All of that being said, there are a few reasons I love CoS. -Harry's self-doubt. Harry isn't sure where he belongs; he has relied on things outside him to tell him who he is?Hagrid, Dumbledore, the whole confusing and incomplete story of his parents-- and now the uncertainty of that is getting to him. If other people start to think ill of him, he isn't sure what to think of himself. We see it from the very start when he begins to doubt his friendship with Ron and Hermione because they haven't sent him cards. Then when the whole school starts to look at him funny, his anchor really comes loose. He keeps getting hit with surprises in this new world; he went along for over a year thinking that conversation with snakes was just like shrinking a sweater or turning his teacher's wig blue, one of those things about "odd Harry Potter" that turned out to be a perfectly normal part of being a wizard, and now he learns it's yet another thing that sets him apart instead. Harry's insecurity about whether he belongs in Slytherin or Gryffindor (and all that that symbolizes) also showcases other characters and relationships in very interesting ways. It plays up both the tremendous support he gets from friends (Ron, Hermione, Fred & George, Hagrid) and the alienation he sometimes feels from the people who can support him (he doesn't tell anyone all of his doubts, not even Ron and Hermione). He hasn't yet learned to trust Dumbledore?it's as if he knows Dumbledore likes him but feels that this is somehow conditional, and that it will crumble if Harry really lets him know who he is: a Parselmouth, someone who's hearing voices, someone who "would have done well in Slytherin." I find the drama of his learning that he can be loved and admired and supported no matter who he is very moving. -Thanks to Lockhart, we get the first strong sense of what becomes a major theme in GoF: Harry's discomfort with his fame. Colin also accentuates the downside of being "famous Harry Potter." -The parallels between Harry and young Voldemort, and the accompanying theme of moral choice that is dear to JKR's heart and mine. Harry and TR started life out much the same?Riddle is what Harry could have become if he had been inclined to bitterness and hatred. Without CoS, the speech at the end of GoF would just be a nice speech?it matters not how we are born, but what we choose to become, yeah yeah. With CoS we *see* it: two orphans, both extraordinarily talented, both exiled from the wizarding world, and look what one has made of himself and look what the other is making of himself. One is the curse of the wizarding world, one has been the saving of it (and no doubt will be again). I could list all the small things I love about the book too (like the line below, which is the story of my life ), but this is the big stuff. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------------- "And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could =never stop reading=! You just had to wander around with your nose in it, trying to do everything one-handed." --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets --------------------------------------------------------------- From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 20:28:50 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:28:50 -0000 Subject: No book till 2003????? In-Reply-To: <9pvjg2+qgab@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvmm2+pg14@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27400 CMC wrote: > I'm sure she will be so busy helping Chris Columbus getting the > second HP installment to the silver screen that we'll be lucky if we > see volume five before 2005. If she doesn't stop working on the movies, they're going to lap her. Columbus (or whoever) will be ready to cast, say, book 6, and she won't have written it yet. However, I have faith. BTW, Caius, as long as I've got you on the line, "We Turn to Centaurs" had me ROTFL. Amy From lily_solstar at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 20:39:42 2001 From: lily_solstar at hotmail.com (lily_solstar at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:39:42 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9pva9c+4g04@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvnae+4f88@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27401 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: I wouldn't conclude from the poll that anyone > *doesn't like* CoS. I agonized over how to rank 1, 2, and 4 (PoA > being my clear favorite), and I wouldn't say that I "don't like" the > one I ranked last (PS/SS). I love them all. I agree. It is very hard for a HP fan to rank the books, mainly because each of them have things we love, and, yes, some things we hate. P/SS was the first book, and therefore holds a special place in our hearts. Who could not fall in love with Harry when he finds out he's a wizard, or wins 50 points for Gry., or give the little "I'm going after Quirllel and that's that" speach. The book was our introduction into his crazy and wondeful world. As for POA, it is simply, IMHO, the best one. It is very well written, the plot line is compeling, and all the clues lead up to a good godfather. Yes, it has it's plot holes (a cloudy moon and an instant werewolf, need I say more?), but in all honisty, I think it was the one I enjoyed the most while I was reading it. GOF most enduring characteristic is simply that it is the last book so far. It is all we have right now, as close as we can come to the end of the saga. That, in and of itself, is its saving grace. And it's long :-) (I love long books) So, by process of elimination, most find COS at the bottom of the pile. It certainly isn't that we don't like it, rather just what the poll says. It is our *least* favorite. --Lily Solstar who would like to apologize for any spelling errors, for she is sure there are many From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 22:02:39 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:02:39 -0000 Subject: That marvelous Chamber (long) In-Reply-To: <9pvmel+5vr6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvs5v+461f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27402 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Ginny didn't control the basilisk; only a Parselmouth could do that. > She was important to Tom because she did things like write on the > walls, kill roosters, and, of course, write in the diary, which not > only "brought him back to Hogwarts" and gave his diary-self strength, > but told him all sorts of things about his future self and Harry, who > became his new focus. > Amy Z How did the sink open up? **************** Well, Amy, I am glad you love CoS. There are people who adore Ann McCaffery. I've gotten to the point I can't read her because of her terrible continuity problems. I do NOT dislike CoS. However, it is my least favorite because there are just too many logic holes requiring too many excuses for me to be fully comfortable with the book. And I agree that Lockhart is too broad of a character -- the original one-joke man. It also annoys me that Hermione is deceived by the git to the bitter end. Marcus From Evilonewon at aol.com Tue Oct 9 22:08:32 2001 From: Evilonewon at aol.com (Evilonewon at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:08:32 EDT Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? Message-ID: <11c.5ac2b98.28f4cf60@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27403 In a message dated 10/09/2001 12:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least > favorite of the four books among people on this list. Out of 400 > responses, only 5% picked CoS as their favorite out of the HP series > (58% picked PoA). Out of 251 votes for least favorite book, CoS was > chosen as least favorite by 70%. > I'd have to say that I greatly disliked CoS, I'll go into why in a minute, but I've only read it twice, as opposed to PoA, which is most definitely my favourite, which I've read over 10 times. > Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many people > not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the plot, > something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? And if you can > identify a gripe about CoS, can you think of a way to fix it? > I disliked a lot of the characterization, especially Lockhart. He kept misinterpreting what was going on and didn't pay attention when people tried to correct him, and no one ever actually corrected him. And the Whomping Willow seemed pointless. I understand the need to introduce it, but I disliked that Harry and Ron decided to be idiots and break the law, when it would have been safer, not to mention legal, for them to wait for Mr. and Mrs. Weasley to come back and take them to Hogwarts. I couldn't understand why they would fly the car to Hogwarts. Of course that could be just because I am a faithful rule follower, but still, JK, why? It also seemed like the Basilisk wasn't introduced soon enough, there wasn't as much foreshadowing, it just explained it at the end, instead of all the readers going "Dear Lord, how did we miss it, it was right there, and there and there." I would have preferred less annoying characters and more foreshadowing. I think that sums it up. > Laura (who owns 2 dog-eared copies each of PoA, GoF, PS/SS, but only > one practically new copy of CoS) > > > > Sadly, it looks like I'm going to have to get a new copy of PoA, mine is starting to fall apart. Corinne Cassandra Valard Ravenclaw 5th Year 105% obsessed and loving it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caliburncy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 22:19:07 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:19:07 -0000 Subject: Radcliffe and COS (was Re: CoS Is The Least Favorite...) In-Reply-To: <9pv7a0+hgkm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvt4r+84lf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27404 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > Excellent question, Laura. I, too, count CoS as my least favorite > but I'm not exactly sure why. One thing I found interesting -- > according to the interviews in this month's Nickolodean magazine, > Daniel Radcliffe's favorite HP book is CoS. The other two actors > interviewed (the ones playing Ron and Hermione) like PoA the best. I'm not going to go into the relative merits of COS vs. the other books, but I did have an opinion to share on this comment by Radcliffe. Unless Amy is correct and he only said that because he still hasn't found time to read the last two, I otherwise find his answer possibly heartening, although personally COS is not my favorite. I think it's a good answer for someone who's playing Harry, because COS is the most Harry-centric in it's *themes*. You have to admit that COS, even with its less-than-tight plotting, stands out from the others as having stronger themes. There is much more inner Harry conflict in this book than in the others. I would argue Harry grows more as a character in this book than any other. (GOF probably comes in second for all these thematic considerations.) So for me, sure I might still like POA best. But for someone who is acting as Harry in the movies, COS may be a better choice. Now, I doubt Radcliffe actually considered this when he gave that answer, but still, it's a thought. -Luke From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 9 22:20:22 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:20:22 -0000 Subject: Is Buckbeak Indispensable (& Other PoA Edits)? In-Reply-To: <9pvmbc+j2q9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9pvt76+cbkv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27405 Jenny wrote: > > Are you all meshuganeh or something? I say keep every single word of > PoA and make it a five or six hour movie; I'd sit through the entire > thing. You know what would happen if PoA were filmed as written? It could bump up against 4 hours. And what happens to exceptionally long movies? They get hacked up into sad little mini-series events on the Warner Bros. network, starring Sally Field, Valerie Bertinelli and Dick Van Dyke, with ads for pimple cream every few minutes. No, I maintain that something big in the PoA movie has to be cut, that whatever gets cut will be good because the whole book is good, and that cutting dialogue snippets and descriptions here and there won't add up to 100 pages of cuts. PoA is mostly dialogue and action, which is what makes it so good. There's not a lick of fat on PoA, so as painful as it will be, you have to cut muscle. Cindy (thinking of taking a meat cleaver to Flight of the Fat Lady) From caliburncy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 23:13:13 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 23:13:13 -0000 Subject: Query re CoS: Platform 9&3/4, magic, and Dobby In-Reply-To: <9puc1q+q2sn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q00a9+msof@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27406 Amy sort of already answered this with the following: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > House elves do have powerful magic (CoS 3) and are allowed to use at > least some of it (things they do for their jobs, e.g. send food up > from the kitchens to the tables). They aren't allowed wands, but > they have other ways of doing magic. They can clearly do some > things that humans can't, e.g. Apparate (or the equivalent) in > Hogwarts. but I wanted to clarify some specifics of dittany's questions. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lake4fam at e... wrote: > IIRC, in PoA we are told that house elves cannot do magic, because > they are not allowed wands. No, house elves can do magic (both in terms of physical capability and legally) and they don't generally require wands to do it (they are actually forbidden wands under wizarding regulations). So they're only forbidden wands under the law, not magic, and unlike wizards they can perform all kinds of magic without wands at all. In fact, I think there was some comment that they actually had *more* powerful innate magic than wizards (no, it's not the comment Amy referred to in COS 3, but I can't find it so maybe I dreamed it up). But the limitation is that, generally, they can't do magic without their master's permission . . . at least according to Gred and Forge. The more likely truth is not that they can't, but simply that they won't. Dobby clearly did not have to seek out the Malfoys' permission to do any of his magic, but most house-elves would choose to do so for the sake of their duty and honor. > Winky is accused of conjuring the Dark Mark, and the accusation > seemed to be upheld because they found her with Harry's pilfered > wand. This was specific to the Dark Mark. They made a comment that it wasn't possible to conjure the Dark Mark without a wand (even for a house elf). > How, then, did Dobby manage to seal off the entry to Platform 9 & > 3/4? He certainly would not have been acting with Malfoy's per- > mission, and would have had to take one of the family's wands. Right, so given the above, no, Dobby didn't have the Malfoys' permission, but he presumably didn't need a wand either. > And to what horrible punishment would he have to subject himself? > If this has been discussed before, would one of the loyal cadre > be so kind as to direct me to the proper messages? And if not, > would Luke or Rowena be so kind as to enlighten me? I must confess to having no idea why I specifically was solicited to answer this, seeing as how there are many others here who can thrash me soundly with their canon knowledge (I've only read each of the books twice--Sacrilege!). But I hope that helped. -Luke From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 23:29:51 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Upon The Vexed Question of Robes In-Reply-To: <9pv55m+jsh8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011009232951.2211.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27407 Consistency is definitely not Ms. Rowling's middle name. What exactly does she mean by 'robes'? The Hogwarts shopping list requires three 'sets' of working robes suggesting two garments, perhaps a closed inner robe and an open outer garment, (also called a 'cloak'?). This appears to be what Dumbledore is wearing in the movie. On the other hand Ron and Harry are described as 'taking off their jackets and putting on their Hogwarts robes' suggesting a single garment worn over normal clothing, (like a judge's robe) which seem to be what we're seeing in most movie shots. Add in the World Cup scenes in GoF where some Wizards, including members of the MoM, seem to have no understanding of normal Muggle dress with the young Weasleys' wearing sweaters and trousers and Fudge's green suit under pinstripe cloak and what do you get? Confusion! I can only deduce that the Wizarding population affects a wide variety of costumes ranging from flowing medieval robes to slightly old fashioned suits or dresses worn under 'cloaks'. If JKR is happy with the 'robes' in the movie I guess we should accept them too. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 9 23:49:46 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 23:49:46 -0000 Subject: That marvelous Chamber (long) In-Reply-To: <9pvmel+5vr6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q02eq+fqld@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27408 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Lockhart: While I appreciate Amy's problems with that most photogenic of DADA instructors, not only do I continue to find him highly amusing, I think part of the point of the caricature is the structural contrast with his successor in the post, Remus Lupin. The genuine gold of the shabby and unglamorous Lupin is rendered all the brighter in comparison with the fraudulent pyrite of Lockhart. > > -The parallels between Harry and young Voldemort, Parenthetic to that, I think it's in CoS that JKR finds Voldemort's true voice. Admittedly, his role in SS/PS is exceedingly brief, but his dialogue in that volume still strikes me as mostly rather pedestrian in tone. Riddle/Voldemort's rage, mockery and resentment, OTOH, arevividly rendered in CoS ("So I made Ginny write her own farewell on the wall and come down here to wait. She struggled and cried and became very boring..... ") > I could list all the small things I love about the book too but this is the big > stuff. > As I've said before, it was CoS that really turned me into an HP fan. Just to add another thing I love about CoS: Harry's liberation of Dobby is my favorite ending of any of the four HP books. I think it demonstrates another of Harry's abilities, which was once discussed by PG Wodehouse's Jeeves "The quality to which I allude is hard to define but perhaps I might call it the gift of dealing with the Unusual Situation." Tricking Lucius into casting aside my old smelly sock to free Dobby is exactly the sort of thing I would have thought of doing - except I would have thought of it three or four days later, when Dobby was back home being kicked all over the Malfoy estate. Of one Harry's best traits is that he is almost always able to seize on such Unusual Situations and turn them to his account. - CMC From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 10 00:04:54 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 19:04:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? -- Percy (P.I.N.E.) References: <9pva9c+4g04@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BC390A6.5030205@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27409 Hi -- Sorry to be lurking the last few days. Egads ... I have 73 messages in my HP4GU box, which means there were at least 73 comments I wanted to make with time. Bleh. Won't be doing *that* to you all but I'll chime in on a few things. > justanopinion (Laura) wrote: > > > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the > least > > > favorite of the four books among people on this list. > > [snip] > > What exactly is it that causes so many people > > > not to like CoS? > > Joywitch wrote: > > > Excellent question, Laura. I, too, count CoS as my least favorite > > but I'm not exactly sure why. One thing I found interesting -- > > according to the interviews in this month's Nickolodean magazine, > > Daniel Radcliffe's favorite HP book is CoS. The other two actors > > interviewed (the ones playing Ron and Hermione) like PoA the best. > Amy Z wrote: > At the time he was cast, Daniel Radcliffe had only read the first two > (and I have serious reservations about their having cast any child > who found the books that unaddictive ). I had the same reservations, Amy. But, my sister read in some publication that gets sent to elementary school teachers that Radcliffe is dyslexic. If true, I can certainly forgive him for not having read them all yet. He's apparently also written or is writing a book about his experience with dyslexia, HP, etc. > To Laura's question. I wouldn't conclude from the poll that anyone > *doesn't like* CoS. I agonized over how to rank 1, 2, and 4 (PoA > being my clear favorite), and I wouldn't say that I "don't like" the > one I ranked last (PS/SS). I love them all. That's what my response would have been. PS/SS is the one I ranked last also, but I would hardly say that I don't like it. It's what got me started on HP after all! It was, as someone else noted, a process of elimination for me. PoA is my favorite on many levels, although if I were to be marooned on a desert island for the rest of my life & could only take one book (or one HP book), I'd take GoF for the length (much more bang for the buck so to speak). It's typically a very tough call for me to rank PoA and then GoF. I could go back & forth on that, but PoA typically wins out. CoS was next for me, and again, *that* ranking is even tough for me to make. :--) I did enjoy reading all the comments about why people ranked CoS lower or lowest, and the logic/plot problems that they had with that one. Lockhart is annoying, but there are so many other wonderful things about CoS that I can overlook it (Barb mentioned lots of the great things we take away from CoS, as did Amy IIRC). Funny thing -- I think I recall that JKR said CoS was *her* favorite of them all (I'd have thought PoA because of Lupin). Can you imagine how hard it must be for *her* to rank the books or at least name one of them as her favorite? That comment might be pre-GoF though -- I can't remember exactly. PERCY -- I'm not going to make an entirely separate post just to repeat what I've said many times before so I'll slip it in here. Percy. Is. Not. Evil. 2 sickles gets you membership to P.I.N.E. (successor to Percy Lovers Unite!). Percy is a red herring IMO. He will struggle with a decision, come to terms with the problems inherent in slavish obedience to rules & authority, and be quite interesting & complex along the way. I think/hope he'll reach the right decision before someone gets hurt or killed, but I have no doubt he'll reach the right decision in the end. Lots of Percy threads in the last few months if anyone wants to search the message archives. :--) Penny From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 10 00:38:39 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:38:39 -0000 Subject: PS/SS & CoS versus PoA & GoF (WAS That marvelous Chamber (long)) In-Reply-To: <9pvmel+5vr6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q05af+9k01@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27410 Amy wrote: > It seems it is time after all for me to write about why I love CoS. > Rather than do a pointless point-by-point rebuttal, I'll mention one of the reasons why I think the last two books work much better than the first two books. The first two are fantasy/mysteries, I think. In both, the kids set out to solve a mystery of life-threatening proportions, while the adults amble about in a rather clueless fashion. The kids don't even go to the adults and spill their guts about how this is all developing and suggest that the adults had better get a handle on things -- the kids charge ahead confronting dangerous beasts and guessing which bottle is not lethal poison. This leads to all sorts of problems, such as those involving the inexplicable behaviour of Dumbledore, supposedly one of the smartest and most powerful wizards around. Then there is the difficulty of foreshadowing the answer to any mystery without giving it away. This cannot be easy, and there is certainly good reason for JKR to have struggled with CoS. PoA and GoF, on the other hand, are more like action/suspense/fantasy. Yes, we're wondering about the Grim, and we worry that Sirius will try to kill Harry, and we're puzzling about how Harry's name got in the goblet, but the actions of our hero are directed toward accomplishing other things. In PoA, he wants to win the Quidditch cup, mostly, and he learns to fight the dementors along the way. Harry does not "investigate" Sirius Black or set out to capture the Grim, for instance. The plot twists (werewolf, Sirius = good and Pettigrew = Scabbers = bad, timeturner) come as total surprises, not mysteries Harry set out to solve. Same thing for GoF. The two major plot twists (Moody and Voldemort's return) come completely out of nowhere (or at least, the foreshadowing is so subtle that we don't piece it together until the events happen, which is even better). Harry is not investigating Moody's identity, and he is not actively trying to thwart Voldemort. He is trying to get through the Tournament in one piece and get a date. We have a vague sense of impending doom (heightened by Sirius' letters and Dumbledore's bringing Moody out of retirement), but the suspense and excitement isn't generated by Harry willingly putting himself in danger while impotent adults stand around watching. In GoF, the kids are not smarter than the adults around them, (and in my world anyway) that's the way it should be. So . . . if JKR asked my advice for OoP, I'd steer her toward doing a straight action/suspense book instead of another mystery. She's really, really got a knack for the former. Cindy (who has decided that kids are NEVER supposed to be smarter than adults now that she is an adult) From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 10 00:39:35 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:39:35 -0000 Subject: Bring Me the Toad (filk) Message-ID: <9q05c7+ma80@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27411 Bring Me the Toad (From PoA, Chap. 7) (To the tune of King of the Road) Dedicated to Amy Z THE SCENE: Potions Class. SNAPE, once again out of patience with NEVILLE, threatens Trevor with grave bodily harm SNAPE Failure he represents Brain power of one percent Neville's a total squib The answers from Granger cribs And that orange potion make me stewed So it will be used as Trevor food I'm a man who's mean by all means Bring me the toad NEVILLE Reached the end of my wits Concentration ..blown to bits Cold shivers down my spine Self-esteem is so supine I can't be rid of that orange smoke Poor old Trevor's gonna croak Snape says "Make it green or your seein' Me kill your toad." HERMIONE (whispering, to NEVILLE) I know ev'ry ingredient for all of these brews And just how much rat spleen and how much leech juice. That Sev'rus Snape wants to play "Weakest Link", So I'll do all I can to get your potion in sync. SNAPE I think: Travailin' will arrive Don't deem Trevor can revive His chances look remote Once this stuff's down his throat Ah, but he's turned to a tadpole .. Time to lose some self-control You will pay for your arrangin', Granger: Five points unload! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From caliburncy at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 00:47:00 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:47:00 -0000 Subject: On JKR's favorite HP books (was Re: CoS Is The Least Favorite) In-Reply-To: <3BC390A6.5030205@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9q05q4+msnh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27412 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Funny thing -- I think I recall that JKR said CoS was *her* favorite > of them all (I'd have thought PoA because of Lupin). Can you > imagine how hard it must be for *her* to rank the books or at least > name one of them as her favorite? That comment might be pre-GoF > though -- I can't remember exactly. Yeah, JKR has commented more than once how COS and GOF are her favorites (though she doesn't seem to have decided on one more than the other in these interviews, so it must be hard to pick) and said (not at all verbatim, but close) that "it's a funny thing, because the two that were hardest for [her] to write are the two [she] likes best". Although she says this is a funny thing, it's actually quite common with artists. It is difficult to be objective and the things that required the most effort are often what the artist likes best, regardless of their actual "merit", per se. *** Veering a tiny bit OT, but still relevant to the discussion: There's a story I was told about a young photographer who was working as an apprentice to this master photographer, and he would always bring in piles of photographs to submit for analysis. The master would sort them into two piles, the ones which he deemed good and the ones which were not worth keeping. There was this one photograph that was looking down into a valley, but there was nothing particularly eye-catching about it, so the master added it to the bad pile. The next time they did this, all the photographs were new as usual--except the shot looking down into the valley was there again. So the master again sorted it into the bad pile. And again, the next time the young photographer submitted his latest pile for sorting, that same shot was included again. The master said, "Twice you have brought this photo to me, and twice I have rejected it. What is it about it that you like so much?" The young photographer replied, "I had to climb a mountain to get it." *** JKR also said POA was the most *fun* for her to write, and she just couldn't wait to write it when she was writing PS/SS and COS, largely because it was the first book with Lupin. It is generally considered on this list to be the best of the novels. So maybe we should hope that she's having fun writing OotP since she then seems to produce some of her best work. -Luke From smurfs143143 at aol.com Wed Oct 10 00:47:25 2001 From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:47:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27413 I don't know what causes people to hate this book - but it is my favorite. The conflict is spread out through the whole book - and it is not vague. In my opinion, the most suspenseful part of the whole series was in the Chamber of Secrets. I seriously thought Harry might die in that scene...it was the best written climax I have ever read! JKR made the reader (at least me anyways) leave common sense behind and become totally part of the book...it was almost as if I were there physically. To be lost in a book is perhaps my ultimate goal while reading a book - and with Book 2 - I didn't have to try...it was a natural response. I still have the same reaction every time I read that part. ~ Elizabeth From SHENmagic at aol.com Wed Oct 10 01:55:14 2001 From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:55:14 EDT Subject: Movie bruhaha/ Robes with crests Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27414 In a message dated 10/9/01 9:59:43 AM, Steve Vander Ark writes: << The incident in question isn't the spare robes. It's the fact that Harry and Ron didn't know that Penelope was a Ravenclaw on sight. They would have known that if she had been wearing all the house- specific stuff we see in the movie. >> Ah, but it's Christmas break during CoS Polyjuice potion time--students are in their civilian clothes (SS: Fred and George frog-marching Percy in the Weasley jumpers/sweaters to Christmas dinner) and Penelope could (italicized) have been in "casual wear". Aylihael (who thinks that's stretching it a bit, but is willing to be fair) From degroote at altavista.com Wed Oct 10 02:42:46 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 9 Oct 2001 19:42:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? Message-ID: <20011010024246.421.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27415 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From degroote at altavista.com Wed Oct 10 03:36:30 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 9 Oct 2001 20:36:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No book till 2003????? Message-ID: <20011010033630.10447.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27416 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 10 04:03:39 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 04:03:39 -0000 Subject: No book till 2003????? In-Reply-To: <20011010033630.10447.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <9q0har+q0av@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27417 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote wrote: > On Tue, 09 October 2001, "Amy Z" wrote: > > CMC wrote: > > > > Perhaps she Jo should hire one of us (oh me, me, me) to make sure they get all the details in the movie right! She could run it like a contest or lottery or something- "Who Wants to be the HP Movie Nitpicker?" Let's face it, JKR has bigtime fallen into the Gilderoy Lockhart circuit. Dealing with movie people, she is now dealing with trained professionals at being cool 24/7. Who could not fail to succumb? "No one is more easily corrupted than an artist" wrote Nietszche. JKR, as I've said before, must now be given the full Dursley treatment if we are to see the series finished in our lifetime. That is, she must be locked up in a tiny cupboard, with iron slats on the door, with nothing but a word processor, and a direct link to HP4GU in case she has come across some obstacle in the narrative that she needs help with. She can earn three months of freedom when Vol 5 is complete, but then its back under lock and key until Vol 6 is complete. And no calls from Hollywood permitted. - CMC From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 04:42:09 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Buckbeak Indispensable (& Other PoA Edits)? In-Reply-To: <9pvcmg+34rp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011010044209.20693.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27418 I agree, since PoA is my fave, I want to see every single word in it on screen. Plus, I also want everyone to remember, if you were making these films, your vision would be different from anyone else's vision, so if you don't like Columbus' verson, save enough money and practice enough to buy the rights and redo the movie! Laura H. --- banjoken at optonline.net wrote: > As much as I'm willing to forgive minor details in > the movie being > changed, I think getting rid of Buckbeak would be > too much. If you > eliminate Buckbeak, not only does it change the > whole rescue at the > end (which I wouldn't like), but it eliminates so > many other things. > How long was Malfoy milking that "broken" arm for? > That was an > important point. Most important, I think, is that > without the time > turner, Harry can't conjure the patronus and rescue > himself from the > dementors in the forest. Getting rid of Buckbeak > would change way too > much, and I really don't think they would do that. > > Also remember that GoF is 300+ pages more than PoA. > I have no idea > how they're going to make that into a 2 1/2 hour > movie! > > Ken > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From oppen at cnsinternet.com Wed Oct 10 05:24:53 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:24:53 -0500 Subject: Points System abuse by teachers (Snape) Message-ID: <01c801c1514b$e59922e0$bac71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 27419 You know, I kind of think that one big weakness of the "points for houses" system that Hogwarts uses is that it lays itself open to abuse by teachers, and that Snape in particular is guilty of this sort of abuse. When he hands out unearned points to Slytherins in Potions classes and elsewhere, he is IMO acting unethically. Professor McGonagal is much more ethical, as when she takes fifty points off Gryffindor, her own house, when the Boy Who Lived becomes The Boy Who Got Caught in PS/SS. I mean, can you imagine what would've happened if Gilderoy Lockhart (that preening git) had been in charge of a House? From catlady at wicca.net Wed Oct 10 05:50:36 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 05:50:36 -0000 Subject: COS - Percy - Chairs/Benches/Map of Hogwarts - Robes - Moleskin - Message-ID: <9q0njc+f6st@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27420 FILK Caius, I LOVED "Bring Me The Toad"! CoS Laura justanopinion wrote: > Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many > people not to like CoS? CoS is MY least favorite of the books. I don't really like it all that much, but I don't know WHY I'm unenthusiastic. It is not that Flying Ford Anglia is a deus ex machina (or machina ex dea) because I LIKED that rescue. Maybe it is because Hermione is absent (petrified) so long. Maybe it is because Dobby is incredibly annoying, but he and Winky don't ruin GoF for me. PoA is my MOST favorite of the books because it has Lupin. The person who was asking for characteristic quotes, was it the FIRST or the BEST time that we loved the character that was requested? I think the BEST Lupin may is either: When Snape blackguards Neville and Lupin replies: "Professor Lupin had raised his eyebrows. "I was hoping that Neville would assist me with the first stage of the operation," he said, "and I am sure he will perform it admirably."" Or "Well?" said Snape again. "This parchment is plainly full of Dark Magic. This is supposed to be your area of expertise, Lupin. Where do you imagine Potter got such a thing?" "Full of Dark Magic?" he repeated mildly. "Do you really think so, Severus? It looks to me as though it is merely a piece of parchment that insults anybody who reads it. Childish, but surely not dangerous? I imagine Harry got it from a joke shop --" "Indeed?" said Snape. His jaw had gone rigid with anger. "You think a joke shop could supply him with such a thing? You don't think it more likely that he got it directly from the manufacturers?" Harry didn't understand what Snape was talking about. Nor, apparently,did Lupin. "You mean, by Mr. Wormtail or one of these people?" he said. "Harry, do you know any of these men?" The first showing his kindness, the second his self-control, staying calm and cool despite being insulted and harassed. PERCY Barb wrote: > If it ever APPEARS that Percy has become a Death Eater, I believe > that it will only be because he is working as a spy for Dumbledore >(snip) I think he could convince Voldemort that he is Percy's role > model Barb just gave me the idea that Percy was reading PREFECTS WHO GAINED POWER as research into Tom Riddle / Voldemort instead of personal interest! RON'S BROKEN WAND IN CoS Barb also wrote: > How did Ron make it through his second year with a malfunctioning > wand? It seems unlikely that he wouldn't flunk with sub-par > equipment like this; Maybe we can take this as evidence that Ron does not lack intelligence and talent: despite his laziness about studying, he was good enough at the reading and writing part of classes to make to balance out his wand's rottenness at the lab part to average out to something like a B- grade average. MAP/Chairs/Benches Thank you, Jonathan Dupont, for posting the map of Hogwarts. John Walton wrote: > The map is really rather dire, I have to say. Sure, it looks cool, > but the captions are WAY off -- the Marble Staircase is marked as > being inside the tallet steeplesque tower instead of starting at > ground level. Moreover, there's no lawn in front of what must > therefore be the main entrance. URGH. Steve Vander Ark wrote: > 1 - The labels are sad. The Dark Forest? Black Lake? Please. (snip) > 3 - The Great Hall simply cannot be located where they have it, > (snip) there is no way that this scenario could be played out with > the Great Hall way out over that cliff like that. (snip) > (5) so the Forest seems to be in the wrong place. But I should > talk, since I put it exactly the same on my map. And I was wrong > too. Joywitch wrote: > Clearly, the staircases are not the only feature of Hogwarts that > changes. Based on the evidence provided by Cindy, Brandon, Steve > and others I think it's clear that the Great Hall has chairs on > Monday, Wednesday and Fridays, and benches on Tuesday, Thursday and > Saturdays. And, although JKR doesn't mention it, I firmly believe > that on Sundays the students sit on magically floating cushions. When I read Steve's post, I was not only charmed but Inspired by it. As the staircases are stated in the text to move from place to place in the castle (as quoted by Joywitch), IIRC so also JKR said in an interview that the classrooms and so on move from place to place on the same floor in order to excuse her from having to remember exactly where everything is. IIRC she didn't say whether e.g. the Charms classroom moves from the e.g. second floor of one tower to the second floor of a different tower or a keep, or does the whole tower containing the Charms classroom move from one GPS co-ordinate to another. Maybe BOTH happen, in order to maximise the confusion. Maybe this is not merely the magic being whimsical, but a security feature designed by the Founders to hamper any enemy or spy who managed to get inside the castle. Anyway, it would explain how disagreeing maps can all be correct. If the places move around on a schedule (or calendar), the students had better Memorize that schedule Quickly. If it happens rather randomly, the students AND STAFF need methods to find their way around. Maybe the pointy hats are not merely pointeD but pointeRs. Joywitch, maybe the dining hall has long benches, short benches, uncomfortable chairs, or comfortable chairs depending on how well the students have been behaving lately. ROBES Prefect Marcus wrote: > > * Robes aren't the right kind. > What are the right kind and why are these wrong? Like the French cover of PS: http://www.9cy.com/members/hol/covergallery1.htm Lotus Moon Dragon: > On a different note, am I the only person who hates the robes in > the movie? Just because the robes in the movie are wrong doesn't mean I hate them. I think they look kind of charming, except for being wrong: they look very much like British Boarding School novels from the approx 1850 to 1950 era. MOLESKIN vheggie wrote: > Hagrid's fur jacket, apparently, is made of fake fur, cut into the > shape of tiny, molesized pelts, shaved, and then stiched toegther, > to make it look like moleskin. The amount of effort is admirable but misguided: moleskin is a fabric, NOT the skin of moles. I pontificated about this in chat last Sunday: http://www.davidmorgan.com/CATALOGS/DM/dm31?17211365327402251251008341 76 "Moleskin and corduroy are rugged cotton fabrics long used in outdoor wear, as trousers, jackets, vests and shirts. In Britain, with the development of the cotton industry in Lancashire, these two fabrics were used particularly in trousers for farmers and laborers, as the trousers were durable, washable, and gave good protection from chilling winds. Both fabrics were used also by the landowners who found them unusually comfortable when shooting or fishing." "Moleskin and corduroy are both fustian fabrics, woven with a twilled weave to form a thick dense cloth, and having a cut nap on one side. With the moleskin, the fabric is brushed to form the nap." "Moleskin, with a brushed nap, is softer than corduroy, and, with uniform thickness, is somewhat more wind resistant." http://www.bootsonline.com.au/pants.htm "Moleskins have become part of the Australian heritage. Moleskin was originally worn by miners in Wales. The fabric is so soft that on the inside it feels like a second skin against your own. Outside, it looks and feels like soft suede, yet its still as tough and durable as ever." LOOK AT THIS http://www.drugstore.com/templates/brand/default.asp?brand=22688 - > to see Harry Potter toothpaste & brushes! From ginnybear at edsamail.com.ph Wed Oct 10 05:53:48 2001 From: ginnybear at edsamail.com.ph (Ginnybear from Gryffindor) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:53:48 +0800 Subject: Query re CoS: Platform 9&3/4, magic, and Dobby Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27421 lake4fam wrote: IIRC, in PoA we are told that house elves cannot do magic, because they are not allowed wands. Winky is accused of conjuring the Dark Mark, and the accusation seemed to be upheld because they found her with Harry's pilfered wand. How, then, did Dobby manage to seal off the entry to Platform 9 & 3/4? He certainly would not have been acting with Malfoy's per- mission, and would have had to take one of the family's wands. *** House elves have their own brand of magic which doesn't need wands. Remember the pie in the Dursley's kitchen and Dobby knocking back Malfoy down the stairs? I'm just not sure why there's a restriction on wands, but house elves do have inherent magic. *** _________________ :-) ginnybear __________________________________ www.edsamail.com From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 08:23:29 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:23:29 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9pv6op+hfub@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q10i1+bgr6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27422 CoS, IMO, is the least 'emotional' book out of the whole lot. It does not have the poignancy of PoA and GoF or the joy of PS/SS. We can talk all day about the tightness of plot, the prose, the characters but ultimately, I think, it's the emotional part of the story we connect with. Out of the four, PoA has the most depth (although GoF is a close- second) -- the tale of the Marauders, the betrayal and the loss of innocence it symbolised. And naturally, it is the most loved book. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote: > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least > favorite of the four books among people on this list. Out of 400 > responses, only 5% picked CoS as their favorite out of the HP series > (58% picked PoA). Out of 251 votes for least favorite book, CoS was > chosen as least favorite by 70%. > > Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many people > not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the plot, > something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? And if you can > identify a gripe about CoS, can you think of a way to fix it? > > Laura (who owns 2 dog-eared copies each of PoA, GoF, PS/SS, but only > one practically new copy of CoS) From lake4fam at earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 09:02:35 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:02:35 -0000 Subject: Thank yous; Gilderoy Lockheart Message-ID: <9q12rb+h3s6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27423 To all who answered my query about House Elf magic. Luke - because you have impressed me with your knowledge and your ability to express same. If you think GL is irritating on the printed page, just wait till you have heard Jim Dale do him on tape! Fingernails on a blackboard I can handle, but Lockheart... (runs screaming into the night) dittany/custodienne p.s. cynthiaanncoe asked how GL could be fixed. I answer, "With a scalpel." d/c From lotusmoondragon at aol.com Wed Oct 10 11:13:31 2001 From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:13:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE discrepancies: Quirrell, KXC, brooms, glasses Message-ID: <6c.113c39de.28f5875b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27424 In a message dated 10/9/2001 10:26:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aiz24 at hotmail.com writes: > > And what's with the broken glasses? It clearly states his glasses > were fixed in SS. (And I can't find > > where! If anyone can find this passage, I would be grateful!) > > They are fixed in CoS, by Mr. Weasley, chapter 4. I am puzzled by the > discrepancy between the merchandise and the movie. His glasses are > intact in every still I've seen. Ooops! Thanks for the correction, Amy. You are right, and that could be why I was having trouble finding the passage. :-) I, too, am puzzled by it as well. I haven't seen a movie still yet where his glasses are taped up. Lotus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lotusmoondragon at aol.com Wed Oct 10 11:16:50 2001 From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:16:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes (was Movie bruhaha) Message-ID: <169.22491df.28f58822@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27425 In a message dated 10/9/2001 10:27:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes: > But it seems that outside of classes, they don't wear the robes; they wear > things like Weasley Sweaters. Since they saw Penelope during holiday-time, > it would be completely within canon that they wouldn't be in robes at all, > but in "casual" clothing. Then why steal larger size robes at all? Why wouldn't they have just taken Crabbe and Goyle's real clothes off of them? Lotus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de Wed Oct 10 11:30:12 2001 From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:30:12 -0000 Subject: That marvelous Chamber (long) In-Reply-To: <9pvs5v+461f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1bg4+9m55@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27426 Marcus wrote: And I agree that Lockhart is too > broad of a character -- the original one-joke man. It also annoys me > that Hermione is deceived by the git to the bitter end. Ah, be a bit lenient on the gall ;-)) I guess one of the reasons Lockhart was introduced (besides comic relief) was to push Hermione through the "first crush" phase. Being a girl, she is likely to hit puberty (and leave) it a year or two before Harry and Ron do. That?s exactly what we see: Hermione?s first crush is Lockhart in CoS, with Harry following a year later in PoA (when he notices Cho) and Ron in the fourth year (when he notices Fleur). Hermione apparently moves through the adoration phase pretty quickly. That is not amazing - being a "bookworm" and maybe a bit *too* mature and rules-concious. When Ron finally notices girls *as girls* in GoF (how can you top: "Hermione - you *are* a girl!") Hermione is already courted by someone who is older - and likely to look for a relationship (Viktor). Looking back, Hermione will probably wish at some time her first crush would be less embarassing for her. But, ah, she shares this adolescent confusion of good taste with many other adolescent females of our species :-)) And what other victim would have been available? Not the ordinary muggle movie or pop star. Being muggle-born and more bookwise than worldwise it is unlikely she knows a lot about wizard stars. The other teachers where no match for Lockhart and the boys where out of bounds yet. Luckily, most girls overcome this phase unhurt. The boys, too. :-)) Ethanol, who prefers not to remember who she doted on as a teen From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de Wed Oct 10 11:39:14 2001 From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:39:14 -0000 Subject: Robes (was Movie bruhaha) In-Reply-To: <169.22491df.28f58822@aol.com> Message-ID: <9q1c12+hbjj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27427 Lotus wrote: > > Then why steal larger size robes at all? Why wouldn't they have just taken > Crabbe and Goyle's real clothes off of them? They hoped, Crabbe and Goyle would not understand what happened to them - they were right: Crabbe and Goyle apparently *are* that dense. But waking up in nothing but underwear - even these two would have noticed something *is* wrong. And... I guess JKR did not want to describe Harry and Ron dressing Crabbe and Goyle down to underwear. I don?t think I would have enjoyed the sight, eiter. :-)) Ethanol From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de Wed Oct 10 12:04:33 2001 From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:04:33 -0000 Subject: That marvelous Chamber (long) In-Reply-To: <9pvmel+5vr6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1dgh+109pg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27428 Amy, thank you for characterizing Harry in CoS so well. Many people (in real world and other boards) that I have met, do not see Harry as ambigious character. According to their POV, Harry inherited all of the "Slytherin" characteristics from Voldemort, including his ability to speak Parsel. They would argue, that DD confirmed to Harry that he belongs in Gryffindor. Thus his "Slytherin" abilities are either non-important or the results of surviving Voldemort?s curse. Personally, I disagree with this idea. I think, Harry would have this "Slytherin" characteristics without Voldemort?s curse. >From what we know about his parents, I would rather guess that he inherited them from his mother. The green eyes that Harry shares with Lily might go along with the ability to speak Parsel, for example. I know, JKR said in an interview that Lily was in Gryffindor. But it might be, that she could also have decided to go to Slytherin instead of Gryffindor. That would tie in nicely with the rumours/promises, that we would learn something amzing about Lily and that there is more to the Sorting Hat than meets the eyes. Dumbledore said: ".... it is more our decisions that define what we are." While others have used this as a counter arguement, I use it as a proof to my claim: Harry *could* have been a Slytherin (he "would have done well") but he *chose* to be a Gryffindor. Maybe Lily did, too. >From this point of view, CoS was necessary for Harry to come to terms with his own decision. And I suspect, that there *will* be a relevance to the the separate facts of having green eyes, being a Parselmouth, *could* have gone to Slytherin and having the "twin" of Voldemorts wand. Why? Because it has been kept as a secret. After four year, only two people know, Harry could have gone to Slytherin: Harry and DD. If it did not matter, why keep it a secret? I suspect Snape will *not* be happy that Harry turned down *his* house (or maybe he does know?). And at the end of GoF, only Harry, DD, Olivander and Sirius know about the wand. ***Not*** his best friends Ron and Hermione. Maybe this little information would not have been important, if Harry had revealed it during his first year (like "hey, you know what: my wand is the twin of Voldemort?s"). But between Fudge and Rita Skeeter, his sanity (maybe even his loyalty) is in doubt. And I don?t believe that JKR *can* ignore the situation she left Harry in at the end of GoF. If Harry?s secrets are revealed know, when popular opinion of him is so low, he could be in real trouble. If Mrs. Weasly believes Skeeters lies about Hermione (whom she knows), how many people will believe lies about Harry (whom they do not know)? Without CoS, the end of GoF is only half as threatening. With it, I can?t wait for OoP - to be proven right (or wrong). Ethanol "Amy Z" wrote: > All of that being said, there are a few reasons I love CoS. > > -Harry's self-doubt. Harry isn't sure where he belongs; he has > relied on things outside him to tell him who he is?Hagrid, > Dumbledore, the whole confusing and incomplete story of his parents-- > and now the uncertainty of that is getting to him. If other people > start to think ill of him, he isn't sure what to think of himself. > We see it from the very start when he begins to doubt his friendship > with Ron and Hermione because they haven't sent him cards. Then when > the whole school starts to look at him funny, his anchor really comes > loose. > > He keeps getting hit with surprises in this new world; he went along > for over a year thinking that conversation with snakes was just like > shrinking a sweater or turning his teacher's wig blue, one of those > things about "odd Harry Potter" that turned out to be a perfectly > normal part of being a wizard, and now he learns it's yet another > thing that sets him apart instead. > > Harry's insecurity about whether he belongs in Slytherin or > Gryffindor (and all that that symbolizes) also showcases other > characters and relationships in very interesting ways. It plays up > both the tremendous support he gets from friends (Ron, Hermione, Fred > & George, Hagrid) and the alienation he sometimes feels from the > people who can support him (he doesn't tell anyone all of his doubts, > not even Ron and Hermione). He hasn't yet learned to trust > Dumbledore?it's as if he knows Dumbledore likes him but feels that > this is somehow conditional, and that it will crumble if Harry really > lets him know who he is: a Parselmouth, someone who's hearing voices, > someone who "would have done well in Slytherin." I find the drama of > his learning that he can be loved and admired and supported no matter > who he is very moving. From lotusmoondragon at aol.com Wed Oct 10 12:21:00 2001 From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:21:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Upon The Vexed Question of Robes Message-ID: <7b.1c66dd82.28f5972c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27429 In a message dated 10/9/2001 7:35:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com writes: > ? The > Hogwarts shopping list requires three 'sets' of > working robes suggesting two garments, perhaps a > closed inner robe and an open outer garment, (also > called a 'cloak'?). Not necessarily. Consider a "pair" of pants, a "pair" of underwear, etc. Also, consider this, from GoF, pages 39 and 40 - "I hope you told them to dress properly, these people," he [Uncle Vernon] snarled at once. "I've seen the sort of stuff your lot wear. They better have the decency to put on normal clothes, that's all." Harry felt a slight sense of foreboding. He had rarely seen Mr. or Mrs. Weasley wearing anything that the Dursleys would call "normal." Their children might don Muggle clothing during the holidays, but Mr. and Mrs. Weasley usually wore long robes in varying states of shabbiness. Lotus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vderark at bccs.org Wed Oct 10 12:44:30 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:44:30 -0000 Subject: Points System abuse by teachers (Snape) In-Reply-To: <01c801c1514b$e59922e0$bac71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9q1fre+l117@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27430 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > You know, I kind of think that one big weakness of the "points for houses" > system that Hogwarts uses is that it lays itself open to abuse by teachers, > and that Snape in particular is guilty of this sort of abuse. This is very true. The system is so biased that it's hard to believe that someone like Dumbledore would allow it. He represents fairness and impartiality, after all, with everyone of any race etc. getting a chance. But maybe that's why he doesn't hesitate to step in at the last minute and award points in a fashion which is clearly planned to undermine the Slytherin win as dramatically as possible. Not only that, think about the Triwizard Tournament. I could go on and on about the major plot holes and inconsistencies of this entire mess, but one particularly galling problem is that not one of the champions competes fairly. They all cheat and get outside help and advance knowledge and this is expected! "Cheating has always been a traditional part of the Triwizard Tournament," we are told. I think we have to adjust our understanding of the way the Wizarding World works, not only in terms of technology and physics but also in terms of morality and ethics. related resources: house points http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/points_ss.html the Triwizard Tournament http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/triwizard.html Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon which features essays on all this stuff and more :) http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From lotusmoondragon at aol.com Wed Oct 10 12:45:20 2001 From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:45:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Robes ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27431 In a message dated 10/10/2001 1:54:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catlady at wicca.net writes: > > > * Robes aren't the right kind. > > What are the right kind and why are these wrong? > > Like the French cover of PS: > http://www.9cy.com/members/hol/covergallery1.htm Wow! That's a much better cover than my US version! When I think of Witches and Wizards, those are the kind of robes I am talking about. I think I am influenced, though, as I am in the SCA, and a Wiccan. Our robes are more like the kind on the French cover. Thank you for posting that link! Lotus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 10 13:09:31 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:09:31 -0000 Subject: Points System abuse by teachers (Snape) In-Reply-To: <9q1fre+l117@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1hab+2pc8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27432 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: I could go on and on > about the major plot holes and inconsistencies of this entire mess, > but one particularly galling problem is that not one of the champions > competes fairly. OK. I'll bite. I loved the Triwizard Tournament. I have heard a few nits about how it might not make the best spectator sport, but what are the other major plot holes and inconsistencies? From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 10 13:14:16 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:14:16 -0000 Subject: Favorite book covers (WAS (Robes ...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9q1hj9+1s4g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27433 Lotus wrote: > > http://www.9cy.com/members/hol/covergallery1.htm > > Wow! That's a much better cover than my US version! When I think of Witches > and Wizards, those are the kind of robes I am talking about. I think I am > influenced, though, as I am in the SCA, and a Wiccan. Our robes are more like > the kind on the French cover. Thank you for posting that link! > I had never seen all of these covers before. I think I like the German one best, although Iran's threw me for a loop. Do we have links for the international covers for the other three books? Does anyone know why they bother creating so many different covers for different markets? Cindy From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 14:45:40 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:45:40 -0000 Subject: Robes once more In-Reply-To: <9q0njc+f6st@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1muk+jdtb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27434 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > ROBES > Prefect Marcus wrote: > > > > * Robes aren't the right kind. > > What are the right kind and why are these wrong? > > Like the French cover of PS: > http://www.9cy.com/members/hol/covergallery1.htm Cover art varies a great deal from country to country. JKR -- bless her -- allows a great deal of artistic license. IIRC at least one shows Harry's scar as horizontal, for example. Another example is the drastic way Buckbeak changes on the various PoA covers. So from the text, what are the right kind and why are the ones in the movie wrong? Marcus From mediaphen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 14:48:18 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:48:18 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Abridged scripts, now at a Files/Club humour section near you Message-ID: <9q1n3i+og11@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27435 Hi everybody! All of you who are afraid the movies will be to long, or leave important stuff out in order not to, worry no more. The solution for Chris C and whoever directs the next films (Tim Burton, Guy Ritchie) is simply to follow Martin Smith's abridged scripts and everything will be just fine. I've started with Chamber of Secrets, since I suspect Steve Kloves already has done the script for PS, and will continue with the rest as soon as possible. Check out the Word-file at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Club% 20Humour/Harry_Potter_and_the_Chamber_of_Secrets.doc or the text-file at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Club% 20Humour/CoS.txt If these links don't work, simply swing to Files/Club humour and you're there. Enjoy, Martin Smith of MediaPhen Entertainment From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 10 15:14:13 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:14:13 -0000 Subject: No book till 2003????? In-Reply-To: <9q0har+q0av@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1ok5+gqiu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27436 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > Let's face it, JKR has bigtime fallen into the Gilderoy Lockhart > circuit. Dealing with movie people, she is now dealing with trained > professionals at being cool 24/7. Who could not fail to succumb? "No > one is more easily corrupted than an artist" wrote Nietszche. JKR, > as I've said before, must now be given the full Dursley treatment if > we are to see the series finished in our lifetime. That is, she must > be locked up in a tiny cupboard, with iron slats on the door, with > nothing but a word processor, and a direct link to HP4GU in case she > has come across some obstacle in the narrative that she needs help > with. > > She can earn three months of freedom when Vol 5 is complete, but then > its back under lock and key until Vol 6 is complete. And no calls > from Hollywood permitted. > I fear you may be correct, Caius. I heard that the manuscript for OoP is already at the publisher and has been for at least a month. If they are really going to try to string me along for an extra six months and go into 2003, well. . . I don't know what I'll do. At that pace, we'd see Book 6 in 2006, and Book 7 in 2009, and my patience will have long since been exhausted. Cindy From deeblite at home.com Wed Oct 10 15:16:50 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:16:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes once more In-Reply-To: <9q1muk+jdtb@eGroups.com> References: <9q0njc+f6st@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011010111421.027b0ec0@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27437 At 02:45 PM 10/10/01 +0000, you wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > wrote: > > ROBES > > Prefect Marcus wrote: > > > > > > * Robes aren't the right kind. > > > What are the right kind and why are these wrong? > > > > Like the French cover of PS: > > http://www.9cy.com/members/hol/covergallery1.htm > >Cover art varies a great deal from country to country. JKR -- bless >her -- allows a great deal of artistic license. IIRC at least one >shows Harry's scar as horizontal, for example. Another example is >the drastic way Buckbeak changes on the various PoA covers. And the Italian cover for Chamber of Secrets is waaaaaaaay messed up. It's got a picture of Harry wearing a hat that seems to be the head of some sort of animal, riding on a giant flying book. WAAAAAY messed up. i should probably scan it. -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From vderark at bccs.org Wed Oct 10 15:20:53 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:20:53 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene...straight from JKR Message-ID: <9q1p0l+5umc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27438 Okay, now I'm having a real problem concentrating on my work...this is a quote from Empire Online: `A few things are missing,' Columbus explains, `obviously we had to edit or else the film would have been six hours long.' Then he adds a little snippet that's bound to have Potter fans bashing down the door of their nearest cinema come release time. Asked whether there's anything new in the film, Columbus tells Empire that `[JK Rowling] did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first book but she had written it and she authorised it and it's in there and it's a little secret that you won't expect to see. `It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the first book and decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you see the film.' Later in the interview he goes on to add that it's `one little sequence where we get a key into something that happened in Harry's past.' ARGH!!!!!! I think it goes without saying that I will be taking a personal day on 11/16/01... Steve Vander Ark overly excited about things like this The Harry Potter Lexicon which will have to be revised, I can just tell http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 15:35:40 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:35:40 -0000 Subject: Robes; do they or don't they? In-Reply-To: <16c.21783df.28f43cdc@aol.com> Message-ID: <9q1psc+cipv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27439 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lotusmoondragon at a... wrote: > Also, the scene at the Quidditch World Cup, with Archie stating > that he has to have some "air on his private" (or something of the > sort) indicates that it's robes and nothing else in the Wizarding > world. > > Lotus I've always thought that Archie's comment in GoF about "a healthy breeze" was JKR's nod to Scottish kilts. With all the joking about what Scots wear underneath their kilts, she may have singled Archie out for a light-hearted jab at those jokes. And his comment also makes it seem like many wizards and witches *don't* go au naturel underneath their robes. I've always thought that Archie said, "*I* like a healthy breeze 'round *my* privates, thanks". He could be one of the "old school" who wear nothing under their robes. So I guess the debate continues. I do like the costumes for the film, though. - Denise From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 15:47:46 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That marvelous Chamber (long) In-Reply-To: <9q1bg4+9m55@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011010154746.46716.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27440 --- b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de wrote: > I guess one of the reasons Lockhart was introduced > (besides comic > relief) was to push Hermione through the "first > crush" > Ethanol, who prefers not to remember who she doted > on as a teen When I was Hermione's age I had a crush on Paul Scofield's Thomas More in a Man for All Seasons, I must have watched that movie a hundred times on video. It is slightly embarrassing to remember one was obsessed with a man who'd been dead four hundred years, and was a canonized saint to boot! Still at least I picked somebody with substance..... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 15:51:42 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:51:42 -0000 Subject: Ravenclaw Penelope (Was: Movie bruhaha) In-Reply-To: <9pv618+nv0v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1qqe+8nsq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27441 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Littlered32773 at y... wrote: > > "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > > > > The incident in question isn't the spare robes. It's the fact > that Harry and Ron didn't know that Penelope was a Ravenclaw on sight. > > > They would have known that if she had been wearing all the house-specific stuff we see in the movie. > > Doesn't Penelope have have long curly hair? If she does, maybe her > hair covered her crest. Since she was down in the general area where the boys knew the Slytherin common room to be, it seems logical that they would assume she was a Slytherin, even if they couldn't see the crest. Maybe when she says "I'm in Ravenclaw" (thought it's not > allluded to in the book), she could sweep her hair back and they > could clearly see the Ravenclaw crest before she walks away. Or Penelope could have been walking away from them. Ron *did* have to catch up to her in order to ask about the Slytherin common room. She could have turned around just enough to see that the person who addressed her wasn't in Ravenclaw, then turned around again to walk off. If she was walking away from them at the start, they wouldn't have seen what crest was on her robes until she turned around to answer their question. - Denise From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 15:52:32 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:52:32 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene...straight from JKR In-Reply-To: <9q1p0l+5umc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1qs0+ha6c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27442 OOOOOOoooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!! Clever clever JKR! What a lovely thing to think of!!! Ooooooooohhhhhhhh..... *writhing in my chair* --Suzanne --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Okay, now I'm having a real problem concentrating on my work...this > is a quote from Empire Online: > > `A few things are missing,' Columbus explains, `obviously we had to > edit or else the film would have been six hours long.' Then he adds a > little snippet that's bound to have Potter fans bashing down the door > of their nearest cinema come release time. Asked whether there's > anything new in the film, Columbus tells Empire that `[JK Rowling] > did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first book but she had > written it and she authorised it and it's in there and it's a little > secret that you won't expect to see. > > `It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the first > book and decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you see the > film.' Later in the interview he goes on to add that it's `one little > sequence where we get a key into something that happened in Harry's > past.' > > ARGH!!!!!! > > I think it goes without saying that I will be taking a personal day > on 11/16/01... > > Steve Vander Ark > overly excited about things like this > The Harry Potter Lexicon > which will have to be revised, I can just tell > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From caliburncy at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 15:57:54 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:57:54 -0000 Subject: Robes once more -- MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q1p0l+5umc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1r62+e80c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27443 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > So from the text, what are the right kind and why are the ones in > the movie wrong? Marcus is correct that from the text we do not have enough evidence to concretely prove the robes are wrong (i.e. no direct descriptions), though we do have some suggestive evidence. However, if you accept JKR's word as canon, then according to The Sunday Times article (http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/magazine/) The author, J K Rowling, specifies the children's school wear as: plain work robes (black), pointed hat (black) and winter cloak (black). But the costume designer, Judianna Makovsky, with the backing of the director, Chris Columbus, and the director of photography, John Seale, wanted to create a look for them that would give them an immediate on-screen identity, one that would be rooted in magical tradition and history. So she created a Hogwarts uniform of grey flannel skirts and trousers, white shirts and striped ties, a look that would scream 'English school' to audiences on both sides of the Atlantic. Out of school, they run about in traditional English children's wear circa 1950, of sweaters and corduroy trousers. There isn't a trainer or Nike logo in sight. So, no, they didn't do it "accurately" to how JKR imagines it. However, JKR has given us no reason to believe she does not support this decision, so it's just fine with me. And I think they look pretty good, just taking into account the visual style of the film. ***** --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Okay, now I'm having a real problem concentrating on my work...this > is a quote from Empire Online: > > `A few things are missing,' Columbus explains, `obviously we had to > edit or else the film would have been six hours long.' Then he adds > a little snippet that's bound to have Potter fans bashing down the > door of their nearest cinema come release time. Asked whether > there's anything new in the film, Columbus tells Empire that `[JK > Rowling] did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first book but > she had written it and she authorised it and it's in there and it's > a little secret that you won't expect to see. > > `It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the > first book and decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you > see the film.' Later in the interview he goes on to add that it's > `one little sequence where we get a key into something that happened > in Harry's past.' Although I generally like to avoid speculation like this, I find this very much in keeping with the other rumors about them having a Godric's Hollow set they filmed in, which AFAIK were never debunked. It all fits: Rowling might have written a small portion of the scene for somewhere in the first book (not necessarily the beginning of the book, mind you, and not necessarily the whole of the events that evening). And it's certainly a key into Harry's past. Perhaps the dream sequence with the flashing green light is extended? Or something similar? -Luke From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 15:59:03 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:59:03 -0000 Subject: Same Dilema (Was: MOVIE: an extra scene) In-Reply-To: <9q1p0l+5umc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1r87+7qje@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27444 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Asked whether there's > anything new in the film, Columbus tells Empire that `[JK Rowling] > did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first book but she had > written it and she authorised it and it's in there and it's a little > secret that you won't expect to see. > > `It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the first > book and decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you see the > film.' > Steve Vander Ark So Steve, do we consider anything new in the film become canon? How do we know what is Rowling and what is someone else? Whatever happened to that letter you were going to write to JKR on the subject? Did I miss your report on it? That is likely since I've not been around for a while. Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 16:12:34 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:12:34 -0000 Subject: Robes once more -- MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q1r62+e80c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1s1i+c03s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27445 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > So from the text, what are the right kind and why are the ones in > > the movie wrong? > > Marcus is correct that from the text we do not have enough evidence to > concretely prove the robes are wrong (i.e. no direct descriptions), > though we do have some suggestive evidence. > > However, if you accept JKR's word as canon, then according to The > Sunday Times article (http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/magazine/) > > The author, J K Rowling, specifies the children's school wear as: > plain work robes (black), pointed hat (black) and winter cloak > (black). But the costume designer, Judianna Makovsky, with the > backing of the director, Chris Columbus, and the director of > photography, John Seale, wanted to create a look for them that > would give them an immediate on-screen identity, one that would be > rooted in magical tradition and history. > So, no, they didn't do it "accurately" to how JKR imagines it. > However, JKR has given us no reason to believe she does not support > this decision, so it's just fine with me. And I think they look > pretty good, just taking into account the visual style of the film. It still does not specifically say that Rowling said that in this context. The article writer seems (at least to me) to be quoting from the list found in SS, which we are nigh close to memorizing. I agree that the uniforms look great. That might be clouding my thinking here, but I am trying hard to be objective. She is allowing a great deal of artistic license with the book covers, why not the school uniforms for the movie? > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: Then he adds > > a little snippet that's bound to have Potter fans bashing down the > > door of their nearest cinema come release time. Asked whether > > there's anything new in the film, Columbus tells Empire that `[JK > > Rowling] did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first book but > > she had written it and she authorised it and it's in there and it's > > a little secret that you won't expect to see. > Although I generally like to avoid speculation like this, I find this > very much in keeping with the other rumors about them having a > Godric's Hollow set they filmed in, which AFAIK were never debunked. > > It all fits: Rowling might have written a small portion of the scene > for somewhere in the first book (not necessarily the beginning of the > book, mind you, and not necessarily the whole of the events that > evening). And it's certainly a key into Harry's past. > -Luke My first thought exactly. Marcus From vderark at bccs.org Wed Oct 10 16:24:02 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:24:02 -0000 Subject: Same Dilema (Was: MOVIE: an extra scene) In-Reply-To: <9q1r87+7qje@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1sn3+es6g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27446 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > So Steve, do we consider anything new in the film become canon? No, I don't. No because it's certainly not canon but because there is no way to prove that it is canon. The exceptions are details from this new scene, because we have evidence that it is directly from JKR. Another exception will be the spells in the computer games, which JKR contributed, according to published reports. Admittedly, this is a tricky business, trying to figure out what's canon and what isn't. I use the books as the final arbiter whenever possible. For example, since the map that recently was released does not agree with book descriptions of Hogwarts on several points, the map is not canon. They didn't try to fit things to the book descriptions, we know that, so almost everything from the film will not appear in the Lexicon. For example, this is a direct quote from SS/PS: "Hagrid lived in a small wooden house on the edge of the forbidden forest." They didn't follow this, athough it's extremely clear in the text. So their version of Hagrid's hut is NOT canon, no matter what. As for the letter, I receieved a number of emails from people telling me that it was hopeless, that she wouldn't answer, so I just dropped the whole idea. However, several recent events have changed my mind again. First, I was approached by someone at the BBC about contributing to a documentary. Second, the UHPFC received a personal email from JKR and published it online, so it does happen. I was also interviewed by the Dallas Morning News about the Lexicon, which might give me a little higher profile and could attract JKR's attention. Both of these things give me some hope that she might respond. We'll see. Steve From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 16:42:56 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:42:56 -0000 Subject: "Would" versus "Was" Message-ID: <9q1tqg+rrkm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27447 The recent discussion about CoS has brought to mind something that has often bothered me. It seems that many of us take the words of the Sorting Hat, "...you [Harry] *would* have done well in Slytherin." to mean that the Sorting Hat WAS going to put him there but was stopped because Harry requested not to. The belief seems to be that Harry only missed getting placed there by his strong opposition. Can we really say that? It seems to me that while the Sorting Hat was having its internal debate where to stick him, Harry steps right into it with his strong opposition to Slytherin. The Hat, IMO, very properly challenges him. One of the main themes in these books is the fallacy of prejudice and bigotry. So here we find the main hero being prejudice against one of the houses. The Hat, which is supposed to represent the cumulative wisdom of the founders, challenges that prejudice. It points out to Harry that Slytherin DOES have good points, points that would be personally beneficial to him. Would we expect less? Thoughts? Marcus From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 17:01:31 2001 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (Littlered32773 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:01:31 -0000 Subject: Favorite book covers (WAS (Robes ...)) In-Reply-To: <9q1hj9+1s4g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1utb+uvbu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27448 cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > Do we have links for the international covers for the other three > books? Does anyone know why they bother creating so many different > covers for different markets? If you look at the very top of the cover gallery page, there are links for the covers of the other books. I like the German covers too. I like the fact that Harry looks out at you in all 4 covers and has this looks like he's saying "Can you believe this is happening?" I think that Denmark and the Netherlands have the coolest GoF covers. From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 17:06:36 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:06:36 -0000 Subject: "Would" versus "Was" In-Reply-To: <9q1tqg+rrkm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q1v6s+vhkn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27449 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > The recent discussion about CoS has brought to mind something that > has often bothered me. It seems that many of us take the words of > the Sorting Hat, "...you [Harry] *would* have done well in > Slytherin." to mean that the Sorting Hat WAS going to put him there > but was stopped because Harry requested not to. The belief seems to > be that Harry only missed getting placed there by his strong > opposition. > > Can we really say that? It seems to me that while the Sorting Hat > was having its internal debate where to stick him, Harry steps right > into it with his strong opposition to Slytherin. The Hat, IMO, very > properly challenges him. > > One of the main themes in these books is the fallacy of prejudice and > bigotry. So here we find the main hero being prejudice against one > of the houses. The Hat, which is supposed to represent the > cumulative wisdom of the founders, challenges that prejudice. It > points out to Harry that Slytherin DOES have good points, points that > would be personally beneficial to him. Would we expect less? > > Thoughts? Well, the House is determined by each persons personality - and moral code. It's been told several times that they all appreciate different values. And - I don't think Harry said NOT Slytherin merely out of prejudice, but because he does NOT want into the same house as Malfoy. He doesn't want power or louds of cash. Latter being more important. From rbwood at Yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 17:09:23 2001 From: rbwood at Yahoo.com (rbwood at Yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:09:23 -0000 Subject: Points System abuse by teachers (Snape) In-Reply-To: <01c801c1514b$e59922e0$bac71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9q1vc3+fule@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27450 I agree...although it is an effective writing method for us to constantly hate Snape. My assumption is that Dumbledore trusts his teachers. And for the most part that trust is founded. If professor Sprout took Snape's approach, Hufflepuff might be in the running more. :-) r --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > You know, I kind of think that one big weakness of the "points for houses" > system that Hogwarts uses is that it lays itself open to abuse by teachers, > and that Snape in particular is guilty of this sort of abuse. When he hands > out unearned points to Slytherins in Potions classes and elsewhere, he is > IMO acting unethically. Professor McGonagal is much more ethical, as when > she takes fifty points off Gryffindor, her own house, when the Boy Who Lived > becomes The Boy Who Got Caught in PS/SS. > > I mean, can you imagine what would've happened if Gilderoy Lockhart (that > preening git) had been in charge of a House? From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 17:22:06 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:22:06 -0000 Subject: Points System abuse by teachers (Snape) In-Reply-To: <9q1vc3+fule@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q203u+qkp5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27451 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rbwood at Y... wrote: > I agree...although it is an effective writing method for us to > constantly hate Snape. My assumption is that Dumbledore trusts his > teachers. > > And for the most part that trust is founded. And I think it is - including Snape. Like with potions - he can do something else inside Slytherin House about it (I'd think that any Slytherin student would get a lots of extra potion work and a penalty) - inside the house. With other houses, he can merely take off house-points... From rbwood at Yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 17:24:03 2001 From: rbwood at Yahoo.com (rbwood at Yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:24:03 -0000 Subject: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? In-Reply-To: <9q10i1+bgr6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q207j+l04v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27452 After reading the series, it is now obvious that books one-four were the build up to the big 'good vs. evil' fight that will be the obvious theme for the next 3 books (My prediction...book, 5, or 6 or both will be CLIFFHANGERS). And I'm still scarred from when it took Tolkien a long time to ger Return of the King out!! However, to make a long story a bit longer, CoS has always been my least fav. I feel that the book was more to 'setup' the big V as a REALLY bad guy. Technically, the book was brilliant, but when I finished it I did not have the sense of satisfaction that I did with S (P)S or PoA. And I certainly did not have the sense of 'WOW' I had when I closed the back cover of GoF for the first time. Maybe it is the lack of emotion...I'll have to reread it to find out. r --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote: > CoS, IMO, is the least 'emotional' book out of the whole lot. It > does not have the poignancy of PoA and GoF or the joy of PS/SS. We > can talk all day about the tightness of plot, the prose, the > characters but ultimately, I think, it's the emotional part of the > story we connect with. > > Out of the four, PoA has the most depth (although GoF is a close- > second) -- the tale of the Marauders, the betrayal and the loss of > innocence it symbolised. And naturally, it is the most loved book. > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote: > > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the least > > favorite of the four books among people on this list. Out of 400 > > responses, only 5% picked CoS as their favorite out of the HP > series > > (58% picked PoA). Out of 251 votes for least favorite book, CoS > was > > chosen as least favorite by 70%. > > > > Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many > people > > not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the plot, > > something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? And if you can > > identify a gripe about CoS, can you think of a way to fix it? > > > > Laura (who owns 2 dog-eared copies each of PoA, GoF, PS/SS, but > only > > one practically new copy of CoS) From kira at kc.rr.com Wed Oct 10 17:29:23 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:29:23 -0500 Subject: Points System abuse by teachers References: <9q203u+qkp5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <034701c151b1$1ce33c80$a473f2d1@LDS> No: HPFGUIDX 27453 It is not just heads of houses that assign points. Lupin assigned points and he was not a house head. However I do believe that other teachers need to assign points more. We never hear Flitwick or Hagrid or others assign points. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't, we just don't get to read about it. LA ----- Original Message ----- From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Points System abuse by teachers (Snape) And I think it is - including Snape. Like with potions - he can do something else inside Slytherin House about it (I'd think that any Slytherin student would get a lots of extra potion work and a penalty) - inside the house. With other houses, he can merely take off house-points... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Oct 10 17:33:18 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:33:18 -0000 Subject: "Would" versus "Was" In-Reply-To: <9q1v6s+vhkn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q20ou+46l7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27454 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: >> It seems that many of us take the words of the Sorting Hat, "...you [Harry] *would* have done well in Slytherin." to mean that the Sorting Hat WAS going to put him there ... The belief seems to be that Harry only missed getting placed there by his strong opposition. > I don't think Harry said NOT Slytherin merely out of prejudice, > but because he does NOT want into the same house as Malfoy. Who says prejudice is bad? The word literally means prejudgement, or advance determination, about a person, place or thing. We all have prejudices that we act on hourly: against spiders, or snakes, or anchovie pizzas, or whatever. People who are allergic to chocolate or peanuts are prejudiced against certain candies. This applies to people as well. A convicted felon is denied the right to vote or denied certain jobs because his history as a felon is suggestive of what kind of person he or she is. We often try to predict what a person will do by considering what they have done in the past. What makes prejudice a problem is when it is not founded on any facts. Race and gender prejudice are against the law because the fact that someone is colored or female does not tell us anything valuable or meaningful about how they will behave. Harry's judgement about Slytherin was based on Malfoy's actions, and what Harry had heard about the actions of other Slytherin alumni. I think some prejudicial caution was in order. 4FR (disturbed by the tendency of "political correctness" and the push for "tolerance" to blunt the edge of otherwise perfectly good analytical tools, like prejudice and moral conviction) From kidzero7 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 17:40:11 2001 From: kidzero7 at hotmail.com (kidzero7 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:40:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's First Dream: In retrospect... Message-ID: <9q215r+ak2o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27455 By the time we finish reading GoF, we learn that Harry has dreams that show him the deeds of Voldemort or atleast shed some truth on the circumstances around him. Though in most cases he forgets them. This was intentionally done by JK. So believing that, go back and read one of Harry's very first dreams. The one I'm referring to is the one with Quirrell's turban telling him his destiny has something to do with Slytherin. (sorry, don't have the books with me here) He wakes up not remembering it. So what is your interpretation of this? - Was it Voldemort magically trying to influence Harry to join Slytherin and the 'dark side' through his dreams? or - Was it Harry having a true vision of his destiny that was supposed to be with the Slytherins? (which he chose against) From vderark at bccs.org Wed Oct 10 18:14:29 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:14:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's Dreams In-Reply-To: <9q215r+ak2o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q2365+8347@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27456 The subject of Harry's dreams is a fascinating one. Are they prescient or simply vivid reconstructions of current and past events? I welcome further discussion of this topic, and to help out for anyone who wants to read up on the dreams and join in, you can find a nice list of Harry's Dreams in the Lexicon. The list is not necessarily complete, however. If anyone has noted a dream that I don't have on that page, by all means let me know. Here's the link: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/dreams.html Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 10 18:24:01 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:24:01 -0000 Subject: Harry's Dreams In-Reply-To: <9q2365+8347@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q23o1+auo4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27457 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > The subject of Harry's dreams is a fascinating one. Are they > prescient or simply vivid reconstructions of current and past events? > The dreams list in the Lexicon is great. The only dream I can recall that is missing is Harry's dream after the Quiddich World Cup in which Bagman says, "I give you . . . . Potter!" I'll spare you all a repeat of my theory that this dream shows that Bagman was in on the plot to transport Harry to Voldemort with the Cup Portkey. (Oops, that just slipped out!) Another quasi-dream is when Harry learns in PoA that Sirius betrayed his parents. He lies on his bed and imagines what happened, and he visualizes Neville as Peter Pettigrew. I don't know if this rises to the level of a "dream", but it sure has me concerned about Neville's loyalty to Harry. But the one dream I can't make sense of is Harry's dream in PoA before the Quiddich final in which Neville plays seeker and the Slytherins ride dragons. Does anyone have a theory? It would be odd indeed if the other dream sequences have hidden meaning, but that this one is just a plain old bad dream. Cindy (who had a dream that OoP will come out long before 2003) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 10 18:29:10 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:29:10 -0000 Subject: Prejudice Against Slytherins (WAS"Would" versus "Was") In-Reply-To: <9q20ou+46l7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q241m+mcip@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27458 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > Harry's judgement about Slytherin was based on Malfoy's actions, and > what Harry had heard about the actions of other Slytherin alumni. I > think some prejudicial caution was in order. > Although I agree that some "prejudice" is necessary to function and that unfounded prejudice is certainly cause for concern, I don't know that Harry has good cause to think most Slytherins are bad. One indicator of unwarranted prejudice is observing a negative trait in one member of a group and generalizing it to the entire group, as Harry may have done with Malfoy. Another indicator could be a readiness to ascribe negative characteristics to a group based on rumor and legend instead of personal observation. Cindy (who is willing to cut Harry a break because he has almost no knowledge of the wizarding world when he reaches these conclusions) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Oct 10 18:58:50 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:58:50 -0000 Subject: "Would" versus "Was" In-Reply-To: <9q20ou+46l7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q25pa+54po@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27459 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > > What makes prejudice a problem is when it is not founded on any > facts. Race and gender prejudice are against the law because the > fact that someone is colored or female does not tell us anything > valuable or meaningful about how they will behave. > > Harry's judgement about Slytherin was based on Malfoy's actions, and > what Harry had heard about the actions of other Slytherin alumni. I > think some prejudicial caution was in order. But what Harry had heard about Slytherin was not facts...we've reached a consensus that Hagrid's statement, "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin" is suspect, to say the least. Thus, Harry's opinion of Slytherin at the Sorting is based on misinformation and the actions of two individuals: Draco Malfoy and Voldemort. Rowling even tells us that Harry's bias might have affected his judgement: "Perhaps it was Harry's imagination, after all he'd heard about Slytherin, but he thought they looked like an unpleasant lot." It seems to me the caution that we are being advised to adopt is not to believe everything we are told, and not to base our opinions of an entire group on the actions of one or two individuals even if we think those actions are typical. Harry's prejudice against Slytherin gets in the way of the much better analytical tool of deduction based on evidence, leading him to suspect Snape and Draco in cases where the villainy actually lies elsewhere. Pippin From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 10 19:13:23 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:13:23 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q1r62+e80c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q26kj+9tgs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27460 Steve wrote: Asked whether > > there's anything new in the film, Columbus tells Empire that `[JK > > Rowling] did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first book but > > she had written it and she authorised it and it's in there and it's > > a little secret that you won't expect to see. > > > > `It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the > > first book and decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you > > see the film.' Later in the interview he goes on to add that it's > > `one little sequence where we get a key into something that happened > > in Harry's past.' > Luke wrote: > Although I generally like to avoid speculation like this, I find this > very much in keeping with the other rumors about them having a > Godric's Hollow set they filmed in, which AFAIK were never debunked. > > It all fits: Rowling might have written a small portion of the scene > for somewhere in the first book (not necessarily the beginning of the > book, mind you, and not necessarily the whole of the events that > evening). And it's certainly a key into Harry's past. > > Perhaps the dream sequence with the flashing green light is extended? I love to speculate, so my official guess is that the new scene could be a bit of the missing 24 hours -- the conversation between Hagrid and Dumbledore in which Dumbledore gives Hagrid his instructions and writes the letter to the Dursleys. Or perhaps it is Hagrid retrieving little Harry from the rubble at Godric's Hollow. But that is less likely because I would expect to see Sirius give Hagrid the Motorcycle, and Sirius hasn't been cast yet (has he?). Any other ideas? Cindy From joym999 at aol.com Wed Oct 10 19:42:48 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:42:48 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q26kj+9tgs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q28bo+odj1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27461 Here's some info about yet another extra scene. Clearly not the one referred to previously, IMHO, since it doesn't give us any info, however it is clearly not from the book: >From Nickelodeon magazine, October 2001 issue, pg. 54 interview with Emma Watson, who plays Hermione Granger: Nickelodeon Magazine: Was there a scene that was particularly hard to do? Emma Watson: Yes. Neville comes to me with his toad, Trevor, and says, "Do you want to kiss Trevor good night?" Every time he did this I burst into laughter. I was supposed to give him an "I hate you" look, but I couldn't help myself. It took me about eight takes to get it. I like the sound of this scene, even though it's not canon -- it seems very characteristic of both Hermione and Neville. --Joywitch From bkdelong at pobox.com Wed Oct 10 19:44:26 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:44:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q26kj+9tgs@eGroups.com> References: <9q1r62+e80c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20011010153742.05dcedd0@brain-stream.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27462 At 07:13 PM 10/10/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Or perhaps it is Hagrid retrieving little Harry from the rubble at >Godric's Hollow. But that is less likely because I would expect to >see Sirius give Hagrid the Motorcycle, and Sirius hasn't been cast >yet (has he?). Actually, I'm speculating it's the entire flashback in full. Especially since they specifically cast Richard Bremmer as Lord Voldemort. (ie why cast a person for Voldemort when we don't see him in the film.) And since we have a whole town/area set as Godric's Hollow....it would make sense to go through the whole scene of his parent's demise since it's not really explained until PoA. -- B.K. DeLong bkdelong at pobox.com 617.877.3271 http://www.brain-stream.com Play. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. http://www.attrition.org Security. http://www.artemisiabotanicals.com Herb. From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 19:55:33 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Upon The Vexed Question of Robes In-Reply-To: <7b.1c66dd82.28f5972c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011010195533.77629.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27463 --- lotusmoondragon at aol.com wrote: > Not necessarily. Consider a "pair" of pants, a > "pair" of underwear, etc. The thought did occur to me. On the other hand JKR definitely mentions a 'cloak' over robes in several of her descriptions of 'wizard wear' > Harry felt a slight sense of foreboding. He > had rarely seen Mr. or > Mrs. Weasley wearing anything that the Dursleys > would call "normal." Their > children might don Muggle clothing during the > holidays, but Mr. and Mrs. > Weasley usually wore long robes in varying states of > shabbiness. Mental image of Mrs. Weasley cooking in her little kitchen wearing a robe with flowing sleeves.... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From allyse1138 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 20:33:48 2001 From: allyse1138 at yahoo.com (Allyse) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:33:48 +0200 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene...straight from JKR In-Reply-To: <1002738557.3366.28210.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011010222931.009e8c90@actcom.co.il> No: HPFGUIDX 27464 At 06:29 PM 10/10/01 +0000, the Lord of the Lexicon wrote: >`It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the first >book and decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you see the >film.' Later in the interview he goes on to add that it's `one little >sequence where we get a key into something that happened in Harry's >past.' Well. As I see it, the big problem with this is trying to figure out what was added at JKR's behest and what was simply "dramatic license" in translating the written word to the screen. How will we be able to tell the difference? The scene in the trailers, frex, in which Percy tells Harry and Ron that the stairs like to change, certainly isn't in the book. How will we know what Columbus decided to shove in on his own, and what Jo wrote herself? Allyse, who won't see the movie but will enjoy the discussions anyway From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 20:40:32 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:40:32 -0000 Subject: New movie scene brings up a point Message-ID: <9q2bo0+lg8q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27465 I hope when all is said and done and the seventh book is safely published, that JKR makes available her notes. Her background notes would be most interesting. I would particularly like to see a critical analysis done on each book. By that I mean a book that shows the phases each book went through on its way to being published, also the changes between editions. I would love to read her first draft of PS/SS. She said somewhere that she cut it down to please the publisher. What got cut? Obviously at least this scene. It was the original first three chapters that caught her agent's eye. Was this scene one of them? I would like to see the original drafts of GoF that she had to completely rewrite to fill the plot hole. She said she had to rewrite Chapter 9 thirteen times. I hope she didn't throw all that away. Let's pray my hope is not in vain. :) Marcus From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 20:45:33 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:45:33 -0000 Subject: Forever is yesterday Message-ID: <9q2c1d+1nfg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27466 >From SS/PS - 17 "You mother died to save you. ...to be loved so deeply...will give us some protection forever." Forever didn't last very long, did it. Or does it? Marcus From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 10 20:51:45 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:51:45 -0000 Subject: New movie scene brings up a point In-Reply-To: <9q2bo0+lg8q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q2cd1+km5l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27467 Marcus wrote: > I would like to see the original drafts of GoF that she had to > completely rewrite to fill the plot hole. She said she had to > rewrite Chapter 9 thirteen times. I hope she didn't throw all that > away. > She really said she had to rewrite Chap. 9 thirteen times? That explains a lot! When I first read GoF, I just didn't know what Chapter 9 (The Dark Mark) was doing there. IIRC, Bagman was popping in for no apparent reason and all kinds of strange, inexplicable things were going on. We had finished the World Cup, and it was time to get to Hogwarts, but instead Amos Diggory was being snippy with a house elf. At this point in the book, a lot of these characters weren't very well developed, and I have to admit that I was a little lost. On a second read, it made a whole lot more sense, of course, and JKR had to establish all of these background clues and facts. I think if she hadn't re-visited these plot details in "Padfoot Returns" (to focus me on what things were important in the "Dark Mark"), I would have never figured out what was going on. Cindy From MeriLeslie26 at aol.com Wed Oct 10 21:05:44 2001 From: MeriLeslie26 at aol.com (MeriLeslie26 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:05:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's First Dream: In retrospect... Message-ID: <13e.2bc574c.28f61228@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27468 {- Was it Voldemort magically trying to influence Harry to join Slytherin and the 'dark side' through his dreams? or - Was it Harry having a true vision of his destiny that was supposed to be with the Slytherins? (which he chose against) } My response would be neither. I took the dream as Harry's subconscious clueing into Voldemort's presence behind the turban. Consciously, Harry thought it was Snape's stare that made his scar hurt. Subconsciously, or even by magical link, he noticed that is was something behind the turban that was evil, or not quite so good. Compound that with his stress of the first day, almost being put into Slytherin, and being afraid that he just escaped being put into this "evil" house by his insistence. It is my belief that dreams can offer us a look into our subconscious mind through using our worries, events of the day, etc. I thought this dream sequence was a clever diversion of JKR to clue us into Quirrell's turban, as well as show us Harry's deeper concerns. Fitting in, being a good person, wondering why he was saved and his parents killed, could there be something evil about him, etc.? (Sorry about the lax grammar, I enjoy stream of conscious writing.) To sum this up, I believe this dream gives us a piece of foreshadowing about what is behind Quirell's turban. Moreover, it gives us a glimpse into the worries and concerns of this 11 year old boy who has just begun the first step of a 7 year journey. Leslie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Oct 10 21:13:16 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:13:16 -0000 Subject: Mostly (but not entirely) MOVIE: Sunday Times Message-ID: <9q2dlc+7unc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27469 I know that it's online and therefore in theory you have all read it. But still I thought there were some interesting things in the text that we have not discussed. 1. Dumbledore's vanity. The costume designer said that JKR sees Dumbledore as having personal vanity - he dresses up a lot, so there are frequent changes of clothing. This was new to me, and thinking about it, and, while not inconsistent with what we already know about him, still gives me, at any rate, a new take on his character. Is this a genuine addition to canon (if proved)? 2. The article more or less confirmed that the school uniforms in the movie *are* different from what is envisaged in the books. (I see that since I wrote this it has now been discussed.) I am puzzled by the entrenched views about whether they wear underwear only or ordinary clothes beneath their robes (in canon). I always get suspicious when people find reasons that mean their interpretation can be borne by the text, after all, rather than stepping back and trying to work out from scratch what might have been intended. 3. Likewise, it was confirmed that Privet Drive in the movie is different from the thirties setting JKR envisaged. I had always felt that the stills didn't fit my impression (see my message 22728 for why canon Privet Drive is thirties). 4. The movie (including trailer no 2) seems consistently to refer to the Forbidden Forest as the Dark Forest. Why? 5. Chair and benches. This has pretty much been done to death, but I just wanted to say that at my college we all sat on benches, while the Fellows sat on chairs at the High Table. The benches were about long enough to seat 6 - 8 people, and yes, there were various practical problems: - one end would be too close to the table while the other too far away, requiring a synchronised jerk by all sitting there. If not synchronised, it wouldn't move, and we'd have to try again or give up and be uncomfortable. - they would move laterally too, so that you might be sitting on two benches, straddling a gap, or perched on the end, at the end of the table. - yes, when we all got up, it would be noisy, and if just one of us got up, awkward (knees into the next guy's elbow, etc). That's life; we got over the horror of it, and so too I'm sure will Hogwarts pupils (if indeed they sit at benches). David From MeriLeslie26 at aol.com Wed Oct 10 21:21:30 2001 From: MeriLeslie26 at aol.com (MeriLeslie26 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:21:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Dreams Message-ID: <15b.24a92d1.28f615da@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27470 Cindy Wrote: But the one dream I can't make sense of is Harry's dream in PoA before the Quiddich final in which Neville plays seeker and the Slytherins ride dragons. Does anyone have a theory? It would be odd indeed if the other dream sequences have hidden meaning, but that this one is just a plain old bad dream. My response: I took this dream as a combination of things. Here Harry's subconscious is using events and people from his daily, conscious life and using them to display his fear. Maybe as an outlet. I think of it as one of those typical signed up for a class - never went - oh know I have a final - what am I going to do dreams. I remember a particularly bad one of mine during final exams one semester as an undergrad. I actually had a history final the next; therefore spent the whole day studying for history. That night I dreamed that I had signed up for history, forgot about, and only remembered during finals that I had that class. It took me a full five minutes to remember that I hadn't forgotten about the class, that I was doing well in it, and just needed to take the final. I am sure/hopping that I am not the only one with these type of dreams. I though this dream of Harry's was a clever device of JKR to show us how worried Harry is in a very personal way to the reader. Leslie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 10 21:26:45 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:26:45 +0100 Subject: Dumbledore's Vanity (was: Mostly (but not entirely) MOVIE: Sunday Times) In-Reply-To: <9q2dlc+7unc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27471 dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote: > 1. Dumbledore's vanity. The costume designer said that JKR sees > Dumbledore as having personal vanity - he dresses up a lot, so there > are frequent changes of clothing. This was new to me, and thinking > about it, and, while not inconsistent with what we already know about > him, still gives me, at any rate, a new take on his character. Is > this a genuine addition to canon (if proved)? I'm not sure that it's necessarily a bad kind of "celebrity-esque" vanity, but rather that Dumbledore was, in his youth, a bit of a sharp dresser, and that he may, dear man that he is, try to keep that up -- not to a "mutton dressed up as lamb" extent, but that he might get a new robe made every year. We had a teacher like that at school -- the Senior Master, in fact, who was always impeccably dressed in classically-styled clothes -- nice shirts, ties, suits and shoes. I've always seen Dumbledore as the wizarding equivalent of him. --John ____________________________________________ -"You are drunk, Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk." -Yes, Mrs Braddock, I am drunk.?But you, Mrs Braddock, are ugly, and disgustingly fat. But tomorrow morning I, Winston Churchill, will be sober. John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From MeriLeslie26 at aol.com Wed Oct 10 21:32:54 2001 From: MeriLeslie26 at aol.com (MeriLeslie26 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:32:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Would" versus "Was" - long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27472 In a message dated 10/10/2001 12:52:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, prefectmarcus at yahoo.com writes: > The recent discussion about CoS has brought to mind something that > has often bothered me. It seems that many of us take the words of > the Sorting Hat, "...you [Harry] *would* have done well in > Slytherin." to mean that the Sorting Hat WAS going to put him there > but was stopped because Harry requested not to. The belief seems to > be that Harry only missed getting placed there by his strong > opposition. My Response: Not that I disagree with you, but I just wanted to throw something out there. Remember that in CoS, Dumbledore makes a point of saying that Harry is in Gryffindor because he chose not to be in Slytherin. Don't have my copy in front of me, but I do remember that scene. I thought it was such a good lesson of JKR's that it is our choices in life that set each of us apart. It is even our choices in life, good or ill, that determine our destiny or even our eventual character. IMO, Harry chose not to be associated with a house that's main purpose is power above rules. whether his choice is based on prejudice or not. Are Slytherins all bad. Of course not, no one is all bad. Even, I dare say, Voldemort if he has any humanity left in him. At his core, Voldy is a sad and lonely orphan... in some ways just like Harry. Voldy chose a dark path for his life, and will thus face the consequences of those choices that led him these. Hopefully, Harry will take a more dignified path, or a more righteous path (eventhough I think that word has been missed used and I don't use it in a strictly religious sense.) That day, whether he knew it or not, Harry took his destiny in his own hands. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Oct 10 21:37:23 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:37:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Vanity (was: Mostly (but not entirely) MOVIE: Sunday Times) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9q2f2j+86aa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27473 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > I'm not sure that it's necessarily a bad kind of "celebrity-esque" vanity, > but rather that Dumbledore was, in his youth, a bit of a sharp dresser, and > that he may, dear man that he is, try to keep that up -- not to a "mutton > dressed up as lamb" extent, but that he might get a new robe made every > year. I agree it's not bad. I imagined that it's part of his sense of fun - he enjoys seeing what he can achieve in the mirror, and then letting others see it. I have always found the description at the beginning of PS well worth taking the trouble to imagine properly - if the movie manages it all properly we could have a new fashion trend soon. David From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 22:57:27 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:57:27 -0000 Subject: Same Dilema (Was: MOVIE: an extra scene) In-Reply-To: <9q1sn3+es6g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q2jon+as9v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27474 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > > > > So Steve, do we consider anything new in the film become canon? > > No, I don't. No because it's certainly not canon but because there is > no way to prove that it is canon. The exceptions are details from > this new scene, because we have evidence that it is directly from > JKR. Another exception will be the spells in the computer games, > which JKR contributed, according to published reports. Assuming seamless entry, it could prove difficult to put borders on this "scene" for purpose of defining canon. Of course, the way we (I included) nitpick & obsess over every little detail, it shouldn't be too difficult. Now we have something else to amuse ourselves by until November--what COULD that scene be (about?)?? On a funny note, my mum has absolutely refused to attend the movie with me because she knows I will talk through the entire movie, pointing out EVERY difference I can find. Can't say that I blame her. -Megan (who is way more obsessed than her only-read-each-book-once [pshaw!!] mother) From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 23:02:48 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:02:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's Dreams In-Reply-To: <9q23o1+auo4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q2k2o+v2qp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27475 > But the one dream I can't make sense of is Harry's dream in PoA > before the Quiddich final in which Neville plays seeker and the > Slytherins ride dragons. Does anyone have a theory? It would be odd > indeed if the other dream sequences have hidden meaning, but that > this one is just a plain old bad dream. > I always presumed that this one was the very overactive nerves of a thirteen-year-old boy . Personally, I don't really like to think of Harry's dreams as predictory...I think it just seems to give Harry yet another "power" to set him apart--Super Wizard, if you like. Don't we all just have funny dreams? (granted, obviously the two Voldemort ones in GOF were not "ordinary" dreams, but I do believe these were special circumstances) -Megan From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 23:10:12 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:10:12 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20011010153742.05dcedd0@brain-stream.com> Message-ID: <9q2kgk+69g1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27476 > Actually, I'm speculating it's the entire flashback in full. Especially > since they specifically cast Richard Bremmer as Lord Voldemort. (ie why > cast a person for Voldemort when we don't see him in the film.) And since > we have a whole town/area set as Godric's Hollow....it would make sense to > go through the whole scene of his parent's demise since it's not really > explained until PoA. Seeing all the recent controversy over that entire saga, somehow I doubt JKR would include something that has been as mysterious as this. I also have the feeling we will NEVER hear the full "scene" of that event...it seems like one of those things one could never just "write about"--it lives in the readers' imagination alone. Also, I'm sure this hoopla is for little effort. Granted, Empire Online did say this scene held a "key" but do you really think a deleted scene is going to hold something important enough to change things wer don't know already? This was written three books ago. It's probably something that is explained and/or comes up later in a further book. Perhaps it was cut because JKR realized that "key" would fit into the plotline better of a future book. -Megan From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 23:12:49 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:12:49 -0000 Subject: New movie scene brings up a point In-Reply-To: <9q2cd1+km5l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q2klh+amuu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27477 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Marcus wrote: > > I would like to see the original drafts of GoF that she had to > > completely rewrite to fill the plot hole. She said she had to > > rewrite Chapter 9 thirteen times. I hope she didn't throw all that > > away. Isn't is also said somewhere that COS was the most difficult to write? I do believe I heard somewhere it a different working title. Wonder what this could be. Also wondering what the plot hole WAS. As Book 4 is probably the most intricate of the four so far, it seems to be some transition from getting Crouch to be some son of another Ministry official to big-shot Voldemort groupie. -Megan From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Wed Oct 10 23:24:02 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:24:02 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene...straight from JKR In-Reply-To: <9q1p0l+5umc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q2lai+gvhi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27478 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > `It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the first > book and decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you see the > film.' Later in the interview he goes on to add that it's `one little > sequence where we get a key into something that happened in Harry's > past.' Could this perhaps be related to what producer Heyman said in the Entertainment Weekly article? "There are certain things that will be a surprise that aren't fully evolved in the book. You think about Voldemort. You look at what happens in the end..." --Hella From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 23:38:51 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Dreams In-Reply-To: <15b.24a92d1.28f615da@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011010233851.38576.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27479 --- MeriLeslie26 at aol.com wrote: > That night I dreamed > that I had signed up for history, forgot about, and > only remembered during > finals that I had that class. It took me a full > five minutes to remember > that I hadn't forgotten about the class, that I was > doing well in it, and > just needed to take the final. I am sure/hopping > that I am not the only one > with these type of dreams. You're not. I *still* get them from time to time and I haven't taken a class in some fifteen years! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 01:00:14 2001 From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:00:14 -0000 Subject: "Would" versus "Was" In-Reply-To: <9q25pa+54po@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q2quu+i2jr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27480 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > But what Harry had heard about Slytherin was not facts...we've > reached a consensus that Hagrid's statement, "There's not a > single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin" is > suspect, to say the least. Thus, Harry's opinion of Slytherin at > the Sorting is based on misinformation and the actions of two > individuals: Draco Malfoy and Voldemort. > It seems to me the caution that we are being advised to adopt > is not to believe everything we are told, and not to base our > opinions of an entire group on the actions of one or two > individuals even if we think those actions are typical. > Pippin Also, even if Hagrid's statement is true and all Voldemort's followers were in Slytherin, that still means there could be a substantial amount of Slytherins who rejected him. To pick a number at random, if 40% of all current Slytherins and Slytherin alumni were followers, that still leaves 60% who weren't. Maybe we need to see a Slytherin auror. Donna From margdean at erols.com Thu Oct 11 00:37:01 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:37:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Dreams References: <20011010233851.38576.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BC4E9AD.21C7887C@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27481 Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > --- MeriLeslie26 at aol.com wrote: > > > That night I dreamed > > that I had signed up for history, forgot about, and > > only remembered during > > finals that I had that class. It took me a full > > five minutes to remember > > that I hadn't forgotten about the class, that I was > > doing well in it, and > > just needed to take the final. I am sure/hopping > > that I am not the only one > > with these type of dreams. > > You're not. I *still* get them from time to time > and I haven't taken a class in some fifteen years! So do I, and for me it's been more like twenty. Many adults of my acquaintance have mentioned this as a standard anxiety dream. So get used to them . . . ;) See how deeply these early experiences affect us? --Margaret Dean From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Oct 11 01:31:07 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:31:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's First Dream: In retrospect... In-Reply-To: <13e.2bc574c.28f61228@aol.com> Message-ID: <9q2sor+4kr4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27482 Kidzero asked: > {- Was it Voldemort magically trying to influence Harry to join > Slytherin and the 'dark side' through his dreams? > > or > > - Was it Harry having a true vision of his destiny that was supposed > to be with the Slytherins? (which he chose against) ...and Leslie responded: > > My response would be neither. I took the dream as Harry's subconscious clueing into Voldemort's presence behind the turban. Consciously, Harry thought it was Snape's stare that made his scar hurt. Subconsciously, or even by magical link, he noticed that is was something behind the turban that was evil, or not quite so good.> I agree that the dream in SS is not a vision of Harry's destiny to *be* a Slytherin. His dream was telling him that his destiny is linked to the Slytherins, which it is. Fighting Voldemort will always be a part of Harry's life and Voldemort was the ultimate and most famous Slytherin. It is also a part of Harry's destiny because Harry struggles internally with his own identity; he wants to be good and worries that he is bad. He associates bad with Slytherins and then spends a good deal of time being opposed to Slytherins and anything and everything they do. I won't get into details about this but I also believe that Harry's dream in SS is a hint that he is a Seer. There are many examples to back up why I think this, but I have discussed this too many times to get into it again. --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************* From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 11 02:25:51 2001 From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:25:51 -0000 Subject: The new DADA teacher Message-ID: <9q2vvf+aodu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27483 If Krum was to return in the OOP and is too old to get into Hogwarts as a student, what if he becomes the DADA teacher? I think that is definitely a possibility--although I'd like to see a female DADA teacher. He does have a lot of experience with the dark arts since he went to Durmstrang. And I think I heard somewhere that he would be back. Gotta go Sharlene--thinks too much about HP, not enough about biotech project. From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 02:56:14 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 02:56:14 -0000 Subject: Slapstick Dementors? Message-ID: <9q31oe+6aoe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27484 If Dementors are actually blind, and only sense their way to their victims by their emotions, do they go around bumping into walls, doors, furniture, trees?, and tripping over benches? :) Who needs a Ridiculus charm against a Dementor Boggart? :) Marcus From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Oct 11 03:12:19 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:12:19 -0500 Subject: JKR Background Notes -- New SS Movie Scene References: <9q2bo0+lg8q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BC50E13.1010008@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27485 Hi -- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > I hope when all is said and done and the seventh book is safely > published, that JKR makes available her notes. Her background notes > would be most interesting. > > I would particularly like to see a critical analysis done on each > book. By that I mean a book that shows the phases each book went > through on its way to being published, also the changes between > editions. And, *I* would like to be the one to do this! I'm writing a biography of an author right now, and that sort of analysis is incredibly interesting. I think JKR still does some handwritten drafting from what I've read. It would be great to compare everything from handwritten draft #1 all the way to finished product. I wonder how much the editors are changing. What I wouldn't give to *be* her editor (or at least on the staff)! > > I would like to see the original drafts of GoF that she had to > completely rewrite to fill the plot hole. She said she had to > rewrite Chapter 9 thirteen times. I hope she didn't throw all that > away. Let's hope that she is a packrat, kept all her drafts, notes & scribblings AND that her daughter Jessica doesn't one day decide to throw them all into the fireplace (are you reading this Nancy? ). NEW SCENE -- I agree that it quite possibly will be hard to tell what is the additional JKR scene & what is just dramatic license by Kloves. We can hope that it just jumps off the screen at us all .... Penny From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Oct 11 03:18:23 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:18:23 -0500 Subject: Emotional Impact of CoS References: <9q10i1+bgr6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BC50F7F.4000502@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27486 Hi -- MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote: > CoS, IMO, is the least 'emotional' book out of the whole lot. It > does not have the poignancy of PoA and GoF or the joy of PS/SS. Hmmm ... I think some of the more poignant phrases come in the Dumbledore/Harry conversation at the end of CoS. "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled *that* out of the hat." AND, my favorite: "...nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." One of my husband's colleagues once confessed to me at a party that he cried while reading CoS, the above line in particular. I don't think that it is the least emotional. I do agree with some of the plot problems that others raised in the last couple of days, but lack of emotional resonance wouldn't be a reason I'd give for why it isn't as beloved as the other books. Penny From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 04:29:46 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:29:46 -0000 Subject: Points System abuse by teachers (Snape) In-Reply-To: <01c801c1514b$e59922e0$bac71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9q377q+2mbc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27487 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > You know, I kind of think that one big weakness of the "points for houses" > system that Hogwarts uses is that it lays itself open to abuse by teachers, > and that Snape in particular is guilty of this sort of abuse. When he hands > out unearned points to Slytherins in Potions classes and elsewhere, he is > IMO acting unethically. Professor McGonagal is much more ethical, as when > she takes fifty points off Gryffindor, her own house, when the Boy Who Lived > becomes The Boy Who Got Caught in PS/SS. Personally, I have always assumed that it wasn't too badly biased-- since we don't see Snape roaming around the corridor in the last week of term, looking for Gryffindors to take points off. From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 04:56:35 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:56:35 -0000 Subject: Emotional Impact of CoS In-Reply-To: <3BC50F7F.4000502@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9q38q3+dmrv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27488 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Hmmm ... I think some of the more poignant phrases come in the > Dumbledore/Harry conversation at the end of CoS. > > "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled *that* out of the hat." > > AND, my favorite: > > "...nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." > > One of my husband's colleagues once confessed to me at a party that he > cried while reading CoS, the above line in particular. I don't think > that it is the least emotional. I do agree with some of the plot > problems that others raised in the last couple of days, but lack of > emotional resonance wouldn't be a reason I'd give for why it isn't as > beloved as the other books. Personally, I think the ranking is, well, stupid -- it's like trying to rank all the Dickens books -- should it be The Great Expectation, The Tale of Two Cities or A Christmas Carol? I wasn't saying it was cold and stony like a Tom Clancy novel (Please don't kill me, Clancy fans.), it just doesn't 'connect' as much with me. For example, if you look at all the Harry/Dumbledore conversations at the end of the books -- they are all excellent-- but some are more excellent than the others. IMO, the one in CoS is the weakest in terms of emotional resonance. Strangely enough, I have no problem with either the plot or the characters in CoS. In fact, I think it has a clever plot twist and wonderful characters, Dobby in particular. The only other problem I have with it is Snape's relatively minor involvement. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 07:34:19 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:34:19 -0000 Subject: CoS - BBC - Dreams - MOVIE: CoS/PoA Message-ID: <9q3i1r+a57k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27489 prefectmarcus wrote: > How did the sink open up? ? Tom opened it the same way Harry did. Are you seeing a problem I'm not seeing? > I do NOT dislike CoS. However, it is my least favorite because there > are just too many logic holes requiring too many excuses for me to be > fully comfortable with the book. I guess even these things are in the eye of the beholder. The other books seem just as holey to me. > And I agree that Lockhart is too > broad of a character -- the original one-joke man. It also annoys me > that Hermione is deceived by the git to the bitter end. Me too! Steve wrote: >First, I was approached by someone at the BBC about contributing to a documentary. Ooh, tell us more! Cindy wrote: > But the one dream I can't make sense of is Harry's dream in PoA > before the Quiddich final in which Neville plays seeker and the > Slytherins ride dragons. Does anyone have a theory? It would be odd > indeed if the other dream sequences have hidden meaning, but that > this one is just a plain old bad dream. I like a plain old bad dream being mixed in. Dreams in books are big ol' red flags: Here Be Important Meanings. In HP, we're also primed to examine them for clues to the plot, right from Harry's very first dream (the flying motorcycle), which *we* know to be based on a memory. But for them to work really well as clues, some have to be red herrings. If ordinary dreams are mixed in, then we can never be sure which dreams to take seriously and which ones to dismiss, which makes for better plotting. Luke wrote: > I think it's a good answer for someone who's playing Harry, because > COS is the most Harry-centric in it's *themes*. You have to admit > that COS, even with its less-than-tight plotting, stands out from the > others as having stronger themes. There is much more inner Harry > conflict in this book than in the others. I had the same thought--that DR is answering this question as an actor, with an eye to "what really juicy scenes am I going to get to play?," even if that isn't a conscious consideration--but I think PoA is just as rich in internal-Harry-conflict. Grief, anger, fear, guilt, vengefulness, alienation--Harry in PoA is an angst-lover's delight. In the same interview, Rupert Grint said his favorite scene to shoot was the Devil's Snare because he got to drop down from a great height repeatedly (several takes). You never know what bit is going to appeal to an actor . . . maybe Daniel Radcliffe liked CoS because he's going to get to be covered in blood and slime. And when I wrote: > At the time he was cast, Daniel Radcliffe had only read the first two > (and I have serious reservations about their having cast any child > who found the books that unaddictive ). Penny wrote: > I had the same reservations, Amy. But, my sister read in some > publication that gets sent to elementary school teachers that Radcliffe > is dyslexic. If true, I can certainly forgive him for not having read > them all yet. He's apparently also written or is writing a book about > his experience with dyslexia, HP, etc. I was absolutely joking. Whether he has dyslexia or no excuse , I am thrilled with everything I've seen of DR's performance and couldn't be happier about this casting decision. Well, okay, I would be happier if they had cast *me.* My screen test never went anywhere, though. I think it's 'cause I'm American. Amy Z who was inspired by the CoS thread to get the tape out of the library for the umpteenth time, and laughed so hard at the de-gnoming scene that she had to pull over --------------------------------------------------- Many people said he hadn't noticed he was dead. -HP and the Chamber of Secrets --------------------------------------------------- From lake4fam at earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 07:45:40 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:45:40 -0000 Subject: Upon the Vexed Question of Robes Message-ID: <9q3in4+fjqg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27490 For those of you who wish to translate their vision of Hogwarts Robes into reality, I offer Simplicity Pattern #3339 (also numbered P254). In illustration for the children's sizes, all the kids are standing around a cauldron, waving wands, and the boy is wearing ROUND ;) glasses...Since I have been looking for HP Halloween stuff (for me, my sons are too old [or not old enough],) this is the best that I have been able to find. Sure, the kids wear their school uniform/robes, but the teachers are described as wearing robes different both from the pupils and from each other, i.e., Trelawney's shawl & jewelry, Lockheart's amazing Technicolor robes, Hagrid's moleskin, Snape's unrelieved black, etc. By the way, my wand is ebony, 12 inches, not very bendy, with a Hippogryph's flight feather. dittany/custodienne "'The truth,' Dumbledore sighed. 'It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and therefore should be treated with great caution.'" PS/SS. p298, first Scholastic edition, 1999 From lake4fam at earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 07:56:01 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:56:01 -0000 Subject: "Would" versus "Was" Message-ID: <9q3jah+lg6g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27491 I saw Harry's reaction while under the Sorting Hat to the notion of joining Slytherin as a reflexive Griffyndor reaction to that house, coupled with a total aversion to being in ANYthing with Mal- foy. I don't think that his plea "Not Slytherin!" was reasoned or prejudiced, because as Cindy pointed out, Harry was new to his destiny, and therefore "had no knowledge of the Wizarding World when he reaches these conclusions." dittany/custodienne "'Call him Voldemort, Harry. Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.'" PS/SS, p. 298, first Scholastic edition, 1999 From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 07:57:13 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:57:13 -0000 Subject: Working titles/JKR favorites (was New movie scene) In-Reply-To: <9q2klh+amuu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q3jcp+gjfh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27492 Megan wrote: >Isn't is also said somewhere that COS was the most difficult to write? > I do believe I heard somewhere it a different working title. Wonder > what this could be. The title was "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince," and she said it was difficult to write because PS was a huge success by that time, and she felt the pressure of trying to match it. She's also said at various times that her favorite is whichever one she's written last (IIRC, she did call PoA her favorite in one interview, presumably between PoA and GoF?) and that she tends to love the ones that were hardest to write. Artists have completely different judgments about such things than audiences. IMHO, Martin Scorsese's best picture (and one of the best movies ever) is The King of Comedy, which he has said he dislikes because his life was a wreck while he was making it. Understandable, but irrelevant to the viewer. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------- "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly. "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he," said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room. "Birds of a feather." -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------------- From j.balfour at lmu.ac.uk Thu Oct 11 07:57:57 2001 From: j.balfour at lmu.ac.uk (Balfour, Julie [HES]) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:57:57 +0100 Subject: Film Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27493 Steve Vander Ark wrote: ARGH!!!!!! I think it goes without saying that I will be taking a personal day on 11/16/01... I think that my head may explode with excitement - I am now the proud owner of a ticket to the first showing of Philosopher's Stone on 16th November!!! For anyone on this list in Leeds (England, in case y'don't know!) get yourself to the Lounge cinema in Headingley where tickets are for sale NOW - at the measly sum of ?4 (or a fiver for the balcony if you're feeling rich!) Julie, who has been desperate to get to work to email everyone I know and tell them! From lake4fam at earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 08:21:16 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:21:16 -0000 Subject: CoS is Important/Ron's Wand Message-ID: <9q3kps+ebuf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27494 On Tuesday, Barb wrote: "How did Ron make it through his second year with a malfunctioning wand? It seems unlikely that he wouldn't flunk with subpar equipmentlike that; clearly the whole purpose of the wand being broken to begin with is to have Lockheart's spell backfire at the end, but in the meantime, it paints a rather implausible picture of Ron's second year." Ron's wand was JUST capable of carrying the power load of an immature wizard in his second year of training, and even so, there were several "short circuits" throughout the year. The Spell-o-tape seems to have helped, but only marginally. However, when forced to carry the power load from a mature and fully trained wizard, however much of an incompetent git he was, the wand shorted out spectacu- larly, blowing Lockheart's memory to Kingdom Come. So, it is probable that Ron would have gotten through those finals that entailed the use of a wand with passing grades, and even in the event of a blow-up, I would count on the innate fairness of the teacher involved to give him a second chance. (It's a good thing Snape's potions final does not require the waving of a functioning wand.) dittany/custodienne From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Oct 11 10:39:04 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:39:04 -0400 Subject: Filch, Squibs and Kwikspell (also Boggarts) Message-ID: <7BF35302.12CD8DC4.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27495 Amy wrote: > Kelly wrote: > > > According to the testimonials & blurb, KwikSpell is marketed to > people > > who can *do* magic but not well (think Neville). I still say Squibs > > canNOT do magic. > > Then why is Filch, a self-described Squib, interested in a Kwikspell > course? > I think there is an issue here. It seems abundantly clear most of the time that either you are a wizard, or you are not. If you are, then McGonagall's quill puts your name down for Hogwarts, else it doesn't. (I assume this is confidential until age 11 is reached, else Neville's relatives needn't have worried.) You can see Dementors and Boggarts (which are *not* in FB, Luke - interesting question why - see message 20607) the Knight Bus etc. and you have the opportunity to fail your OWLs or even get expelled. It's hard to see what is meant by a Squib except someone who isn't a wizard. The only possible exceptions I can think of are JKR's reference to someone coming to magic late in life, and the possibility that some ghosts may have been Muggles when alive. OTOH Filch is able to use Mrs Skowers' all-purpose magical mess remover and has his connection to Mrs Norris. What do Hermione's parents see, or fail to see, in Diagon Alley? Could Muggles use Mrs Skowers'? So either the Kwikspell course is designed for incompetent wizards (as previously discussed, there is little evidence that Neville is a bad wizard - he just didn't show his magic for a long time.), or any Muggle can use it. Their advertising is clearly aimed at the former. I think the likely way out is to assume some form of deceit is involved. Either Filch deceives himself, or Kwikspell are misleading him. David, wondering if it's a sign of a crusty old listie to refer to his own old mesages __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 11 13:08:14 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:08:14 -0000 Subject: Magical Ability Sliding Scale (WAS Filch, Squibs, and Kwikspell ) In-Reply-To: <7BF35302.12CD8DC4.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> Message-ID: <9q45ju+vm7j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27496 David wrote: > > I think there is an issue here. It seems abundantly clear most of the time that either you are a wizard, or you are not. If you are, then McGonagall's quill puts your name down for Hogwarts, else it doesn't. (I assume this is confidential until age 11 is reached, else Neville's relatives needn't have worried.) You can see Dementors and Boggarts (which are *not* in FB, Luke - interesting question why - see message 20607) the Knight Bus etc. and you have the opportunity to fail your OWLs or even get expelled. > > It's hard to see what is meant by a Squib except someone who isn't a wizard. > > > OTOH Filch is able to use Mrs Skowers' all-purpose magical mess remover and has his connection to Mrs Norris. What do Hermione's parents see, or fail to see, in Diagon Alley? Could Muggles use Mrs Skowers'? > > So either the Kwikspell course is designed for incompetent wizards (as previously discussed, there is little evidence that Neville is a bad wizard - he just didn't show his magic for a long time.), or any Muggle can use it. Their advertising is clearly aimed at the former. > > I think the likely way out is to assume some form of deceit is involved. Either Filch deceives himself, or Kwikspell are misleading him. > I wonder if there is a sliding scale for magical ability. I was thinking that a squib is a wizard, but is a failed wizard. (Isn't Filch described somewhere as a "failed wizard"? I can't find the reference.) This is different from Hagrid, who is an expelled and untrained wizard, or Neville, who is currently an ineffective wizard. A squib is one step ahead of a Muggle, because the squib has a tiny amount of magical ability, just not enough to do much magic. I suppose that when a wizard is born, his or her name goes into MacGonagall's book. Muggles (who have no magical ability at all) do not go into the book. Then, as the child matures, he or she might turn out to be a squib or weak wizard. In Neville's case, I suppose a proud magical family could elect not to send him to Hogwarts if he hasn't displayed sufficient magical ability. As for the Kwik-spell course and the magical scouring powder, Filch probably can use these because of his tiny amount of magical ability. He can probably see boggarts and dementors (it would be hard to be caretaker if he can't even observe things students can observe), and we know he can see Peeves. I would think he could also ride the Knight Bus, but he might not be able to hail hail it. Can Muggles use the Kwik-spell course? I'd say no, because all it claims to do is enhance your natural magical ability, and Muggles don't appear to have any. Now, does anyone have a feel for what JKR means by "hag" and "warlock"? Cindy (who, under this theory, could be considered a failed opera singer) From coredump at coredump.com.br Thu Oct 11 13:52:31 2001 From: coredump at coredump.com.br (Jos? de Paula Eufr?sio J?nior) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:52:31 -0300 Subject: Cast for the movies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27497 Have you people made a thread about who you would like to be in some roles in the other books? Well, here I go with some people I like: Lockhart -> Already choosed, but Hugh Grant was perfect :( Sirius Black -> Christofer Walken? Or maybe he is too old? But he has the "blackness" for the role... Lupin -> I can't think in anybody :P Fleur -> Mena Suvari (American Pie 1/2, American Beauty...), she has the "weird beauty" that I imagine in Fleur. Voldemort -> Sean Connery (uhahahaha, out of plans, and Sean could make people actually LIKE Voldemort). []s Junior From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Thu Oct 11 14:02:45 2001 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:02:45 -0000 Subject: Robes with crests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9q48q5+966u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27498 --- In HPforGrownups, Aylihael wrote: > In a message dated 10/9/01 9:59:43 AM, Steve Vander Ark writes: > > The incident in question isn't the spare robes. It's the fact > > that Harry and Ron didn't know that Penelope was a Ravenclaw > > on sight. They would have known that if she had been wearing > > all the house-specific stuff we see in the movie. > > Ah, but it's Christmas break during CoS Polyjuice potion time-- > students are in their civilian clothes (SS: Fred and George > frog-marching Percy in the Weasley jumpers/sweaters to > Christmas dinner) and Penelope could (italicized) have been > in "casual wear". (I changed the formatting a bit, to make it easier to separate one quoted message from the other) But are students allowed to wear casual clothes outside of the Common Room? We know that Crabbe and Goyle must have been wearing robes, and that Harry, Ron and Hermione must have been able to count on Crabbe and Goyle wearing robes, and tHarry wore robes himself prior to taking the polyjuice (from the middle of Chapter Twelve: The Polyjuice Potion: "....; his robes ripped as his chest expanded like a barrel bursting its hoops; ....". If Crabbe and Goyle had not been wearing robes initially, then dressing out in robes when polyjuiced as them might have clued in Draco that something was amiss. Regarding Penelope, on the other hand, she apparently wasn't wearing anything house-specific, as the context in the book indicates that she was facing Harry and Ron when first appearing, and they still didn't recognise her house (or that she was a prefect) (from Chapter Twelve: The Polyjuice Potion, two pages later): "'The Slytherins always come up to breakfast from there,' said Ron, nodding at the entrance to the dungeons. The words had barely left his mouth when a girl with long curly hair emerged from the entrance. 'Excuse me,' said Ron, hurrying up to her, 'we've forgotten the way to our common room.'" Interestingly, while I always have (and still will) supported the notion of closed robes, akin to a monk's cowl, this chapter includes what may be a hint towards an open style robe, as seen in the movie. While Harry quite clearly wears his robes, Malfoy must have seen his new jumper, as he made loud snide remarks about it during Christmas dinner that same evening. Still, I will continue arguing that the majority of evidence given in the books directly or indirectly points to closed robes. The most important bit is to me the day when Harry first wears a robe - at Madame Malkin's Robes for All Occasions. When she puts on the robe to fit him, it has to be sliped over his head, which seems rather unnatural if it is an open robe. There is also the fact that there never has been any mention of other parts of the uniform than the robes and cloaks - not even in Harry's visit to Madam Malkin's. My impression of the English school-uniform is that anything visible that you wear must be part of the uniform as detailed in the regulations, with a possible exception for socks. Thus the T-shirt and shorts/briefs that a boy would wear (my knowledge of English nomenclature with regards to female clothing is rather limited, so I'll stick to boys) would be of whatever style he'd like them to be (Scooby-Doo, Irish Charms, etc.), while trousers, shirts and jumpers, would have to be of a specific style (and available in such and such shop). Regarding the issue of identifying students from different houses, I think the present solution, with badges with the coats of arms (and they are not called crests - a crest is a figure/device placed on top of the helmet which is part of a coat of arms), works fine. We know that prefects and head boys and head girls wear badges, so it seems a natural extension. Best regards Christian Stub? who has a weirdness-factor of 38%, and suspects that 1500 people have joined this group since the last time he posted. From j.balfour at lmu.ac.uk Thu Oct 11 14:04:27 2001 From: j.balfour at lmu.ac.uk (Julie Balfour) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:04:27 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q2jon+as9v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q48tb+iuad@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27499 Megan wrote: > Now we have something else to amuse ourselves by until November--what > COULD that scene be (about?)?? I have just found out that a work colleague's best friend is a PA on both PS and CoS films and she has already told me that Hugh Grant is definitely playing Gilderoy Lockhart. My work friend was told not to tell anyone, so obviously they want to keep this under wraps which disturbs me slightly - if it is such a huge secret that HG is in the film, are they then going to 'unveil' it as The Next Hugh Grant Film (a la Bridget Jones), therefore taking away its more important impact (to us) as 'the film of CoS'? Now for the big question - I have told Work Friend about the exciting new scene thing and she casually said 'oh, I'll ring up and find out what that's about' - so shall I post here? Or not? Personally I'm not sure that I even want to know as I quite like waiting for surprises (no point opening all your pressies on Xmas eve, is there) so I may end up telling Work Friend not to tell me, but if enough people say that they're desperate to find out I'll try and do so... Julie (Boolean the Fox) From john at walton.vu Thu Oct 11 14:11:22 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:11:22 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Please note that fantasy casting posts should go to OT Chatter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27500 Hi folks, As the VFAQ file says, "Please note that fantasy casting posts should go to OT Chatter." This includes "Hey, wouldn't Judi Dench make a *great* Sirius?", "I reckon Graham Norton would be better than Richard Harris as Dumbledore" and suchlike. Links to the VFAQ and all our other lovely lovely Admin Files are at the bottom of every HPforGrownups message. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Cheers! --Cowboy John __________________________________ The HPforGrownups Moderator Team MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Please read our Admin Files, particularly the VFAQ and Netiquette files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ From john at walton.vu Thu Oct 11 14:15:50 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:15:50 +0100 Subject: MOVIE: Grant as Lockhart? The Saga Continues... In-Reply-To: <9q48tb+iuad@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27501 Julie Balfour wrote: > I have just found out that a work colleague's best friend is a > PA on both PS and CoS films and she has already told me that Hugh > Grant is definitely playing Gilderoy Lockhart. Tee hee. Is he/isn't he. Several news sources have said that he isn't, others have said that he is... Heh. I can tell this is going to be one of those things that will define us as HPforGrownups Oldbies in six months or so. "Gee, Irma, do you remember all that kerfuffle about whether or not Hugh Grant was going to play Lockhart?" "I sure do, Agnes. It was almost as exciting as when we were trying to find out what Book 4 was called!" --John, who remembers that... ____________________________________________ "No good opera plot can be sensible, for people do not sing when they are feeling sensible." -W. H. Auden John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From vheggie at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 14:33:52 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:33:52 -0000 Subject: Cast for the movies & 'in defense of Lockhart' Message-ID: <9q4akg+9gk8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27502 [snip] I'm sure this (casting guesses) will move over to OT, but before it does, can I just ask the British members of the group whether I am alone in my definite metal image of Lockhart? Despite his being described as having blond hair, I cannot see him as anyone except our own Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen... For Americans, and others, Mr Llewellyn Bowen is a TV interior decorator, famed for his awful designs which turn ordinary peoples' homes into Bordellos and Arabian-Stle nightmares, and for his velvet, romantic, ridiculous clothes. Go here to see him in his glory: http://www.virtualchelsea.com/live/celeb.html Look at that grin. :) he also does innumerable book signings, and has left life sized cardboard cut-outs of himself littering home design stores all over the UK...Need I say more? In order to justify this post, I ought also to say that I feel that Mr Lockhart gets an unecessarily bad press; yes he does appear to be a caricature - but for good reason, he IS one. Bear in mind that the person you see is not Lockhart at all, but a carefully designed persona. We don't get to meet the 'real him' until he reveals his true nature towards the end of CoS. Incidentally, I also feel quite sympathetic towards him - yes, he's awful, but he does TRY with Harry. On several occasions he gets him out of a potentially difficult situation (e.g. the photo incident with Colin Creevy and Malfoy), or offers him what is, fundamentally, good advice about dealing with his fame. But really I just wanted to say my bit about LLB, pictured here: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/acom/html/lesson10text.html From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 15:41:15 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:41:15 -0000 Subject: Robes with crests In-Reply-To: <9q48q5+966u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4eis+93d6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27503 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pengolodh_sc at y... wrote: > Regarding Penelope, on the other hand, she apparently wasn't wearing > anything house-specific, as the context in the book indicates that > she was facing Harry and Ron when first appearing, and they still > didn't recognise her house (or that she was a prefect) > Christian Stub? But the scene does NOT say Ron and Harry didn't know Penelope's house. It says that Penelope thought they didn't know. We are NOT told what Ron and Harry thought on the matter. They asked the first person they ran across "Where is OUR common room?" 'Our' could have just as easily meant Harry and Ron, as well as it can mean Harry, Ron, and Penelope. Penelope obviously took it to mean the latter. I've always read it as the former. It makes a funnier scene, IMO. Marcus From monika at darwin.inka.de Thu Oct 11 16:01:47 2001 From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:01:47 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slapstick Dementors? - Emotional Impact of CoS In-Reply-To: <9q31oe+6aoe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27504 > -----Original Message----- > From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com [mailto:prefectmarcus at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:56 AM > If Dementors are actually blind, and only sense their way to their > victims by their emotions, do they go around bumping into walls, > doors, furniture, trees?, and tripping over benches? :) Maybe they use some sort of echolocation like bats? ;) Since they heard Sirius talk in his sleep, they must be able to hear sounds. Just an idea. > -----Original Message----- > From: Penny & Bryce [mailto:pennylin at swbell.net] > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 5:18 AM > Hmmm ... I think some of the more poignant phrases come in the > Dumbledore/Harry conversation at the end of CoS. > > "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled *that* out of the hat." > > AND, my favorite: > > "...nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." I have to agree here, CoS has some very strong emotional moments. I can't understand why so many people think you can just skip it and go on reading PoA. Although I like SS/PS a lot, too, I still could put that one down when I first read it. I read CoS much faster, and I found that it was better plotted and that JKR was finding her own style. And we learn a lot about Voldemort in the scene in the Chamber. You can't just let this out, or you'll miss an element that's essential to the story IMO. And I don't have a problem with Lockhart, he still makes me laugh when I listen to the Stephen Fry tapes. I agree that he's a horrible person and I certainly wouldn't want to deal with him in real life, but most of the time I find him hilarious. The dueling club scene is priceless. Although PoA is my absolute favorite of the series, I wouldn't rank CoS much lower than GoF. Well, I still prefer GoF because there's Sirius in it. ;-) Monika ------ Book and movie reviews in English and German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 16:42:15 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:42:15 -0000 Subject: Slapstick Dementors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9q4i57+6v3c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27505 Prefectmarcus wrote: > > If Dementors are actually blind, and only sense their way to their > > victims by their emotions, do they go around bumping into walls, > > doors, furniture, trees?, and tripping over benches? :) Monika wrote: > Maybe they use some sort of echolocation like bats? ;) Since > they heard Sirius talk in his sleep, they must be able to hear > sounds. Just an idea. Maybe they have some magical way of navigating. We are, after all, talking about creatures who can suck people's souls out through their mouths, and we don't wonder about the physics behind that. Amy Z From bkdelong at pobox.com Thu Oct 11 16:45:56 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:45:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q48tb+iuad@eGroups.com> References: <9q2jon+as9v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20011011124513.041d8280@brain-stream.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27506 At 02:04 PM 10/11/2001 +0000, you wrote: >I have just found out that a work colleague's best friend is a >PA on both PS and CoS films and she has already told me that Hugh >Grant is definitely playing Gilderoy Lockhart. Better check with that friend again because Chris Columbus said himself he hasn't even spoken to Grant yet: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_10_07_archive.html#6262167 -- B.K. DeLong bkdelong at pobox.com 617.877.3271 http://www.brain-stream.com Play. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org Potter. http://www.attrition.org Security. http://www.artemisiabotanicals.com Herb. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 11 16:57:53 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:57:53 -0000 Subject: More Thoughts About Lockhart (LONG) Message-ID: <9q4j2j+jis1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27507 In the wake of our discussion of CoS's shortcomings, I started thinking more about Lockhart (particularly since for some reason I said I'd think about it and post again). Based on the group's comments about CoS, Lockhart surely seemed to head up the list of difficulties in the book. But why? Brilliant HP characters run the gamut, ranging from the less competent Neville to the powerful Dumbledore, from the harsh Snape to the reserved Lupin, from the rule- following Percy to the rule-breaking Fred and George. Sadly, Lockhart has managed to tally only a few fans and no support group has even been proposed, so far as I know. So I thought I'd take a stab at proposing what may have gone wrong with his characterization. He's certainly one-dimensional (someone called it a one-joke wonder, I believe), but what is it that causes that unfortunate result? After all, even villains can be multi- faceted, and some would say that the best ones are. Perhaps comparing Lockhart to other Hogwarts teacher characters will shed some light on that question. The DADA teachers are Quirrell, Lockhart, Lupin and Crouch/Moody (who I will just call Moody). I'll drop Quirrell from the discussion right away, as we really don't know much about him, and he is depicted mostly as living quarters for Voldemort. Quirrell is treated more as a minor character (like Sprout) than as a major player like subsequent DADA teachers. Lupin and Moody do seem to have a few things in common. Both have vulnerabilities that contrast sharply with their strengths. Lupin, of course, has a whole host of difficulties. Most obvious is that bothersome werewolf problem. We know that he has only had three great friends, and so far as he knew prior to PoA, all of them met their demise in about 24 hours. He also has to grapple with poverty and prejudice, not to mention Snape's constant attempts to undermine him at Hogwarts. Moody has his own physical problems, and there is certainly a suggestion that his once excellent reputation has been tarnished by his more recent paranoid behavior. Although we don't know all the details of his background, we can imagine that years of tracking down Dark Wizards and seeing the worst that exists in the wizarding world has left him more than a little jumpy. Lockhart, on the other hand, doesn't have any strengths and is by design one big weakness. We know almost nothing about his pre-Hogwarts life, except that he wrote books. Perhaps the portrayal of weakness in Lockhart isn't as compelling without being balanced against strengths as displayed in other character traits. Also, both Lupin and Moody have a good reason to be at Hogwarts, and we have no trouble understanding why Dumbledore has brought them in to teach. Lupin has known Dumbledore since childhood, is part of the "old crowd", and there might also be an element of compassion in Dumbledore's decision to give Lupin paid work. Moody, of course, is brought on because Dumbledore is reading the signs of Voldemort's return, and Dumbledore knows him from before Voldemort's downfall. Consequently, it is easy for the reader to accept the presence of Lupin and Moody and even to hope they will succeed. Lockhart, on the other hand, is only there because, in Hagrid's words, "he was the on'y man for the job," suggesting Dumbledore couldn't get anyone else. That justification might be handy, but it may represent a missed opportunity to provide the reader with a more compelling reason to accept Lockhart, perhaps one more closely linked to something about Lockhart's background. Rather than just being a talentless wizard, for instance, maybe it would have worked better if Lockhart had once been talented, but his wizarding skills have atrophied, causing him to fabricate his more recent accomplishments. Next, both Lupin and Moody are excellent teachers, and their best lessons are hands-on experiences. Both are compassionate toward weaker students, as both bestow extra attention on Neville. Lockhart is written as the opposite of a hands-on teacher, of course, which is consistent with his characterization of a wizard who doesn't know how to do a great deal of magic. But he isn't shown having any meaningful personal interactions with students, apart from his conversations with Harry. There really isn't any reason Lockhart can't befriend a student or two (Lavender and Pavarti are candidates for this role as they are easily impressed). Finally, Lupin and Moody are both reasonably powerful and accomplished wizards. Lupin is capable of resisting boggarts that turn into the full moon, and is capable of conjuring a Patronus as needed and can also teach it to an underage wizard. Moody is capable of performing the Unforgivable Curses. Both are independent thinkers ? Lupin gives the Marauders' Map back to Harry and protects Harry from Snape's wrath, and Moody has the backbone to perform the Imperius Curse in the classroom. Lockhart, of course, does not display these qualities (by design), as he is supposed to be incompetent and, as they say in Texas, all hat but no cattle. But it might not hurt to have Lockhart be adept in other areas, such as displaying people skills. To the extent Lockhart is shown exhibiting people skills, his efforts are not convincing. Perhaps comparing Lockhart to Lupin and Moody is not entirely fair, though. After all, we are meant to like Lupin and Moody, and we are meant not to like Lockhart because he is incompetent and turns out to be evil in the end. Setting aside that we somehow manage to wind up liking Moody and Snape even though they are not the most personable wizards around, there is also the Trelawney question. Professor Trelawney is set up to be similar to Lockhart in a few ways. Her competence is certainly in question, and like Lockhart, she seems to have a rather inflated opinion of herself and be riding her reputation rather than showing any discernable talent on a day-to- day basis. Although Trelawney also does not seem to have a great number of fans in this group, she also doesn't seem to generate quite as many detractors, either. So why does Trelawney's characterization work better than Lockhart's? Perhaps it is that, although Trelawney does not have that many scenes in the third and fourth books, the reactions of other characters toward her are fairly complex and laced with conflict. We quickly learn that McGonagall does not respect Trelawney, and will make this fact known in the presence of students, teachers and Trelawney herself. There is a hint that Lupin does not think much of Trelawney's crystal ball gazing ability. On the other hand, Trelawney has her fans, as Lavender and Pavarti show respect bordering on reverence, possibly based as much on what they have seen in class plus all the time they spend visiting with Trelawney. There is the hint from time to time that Trelawney does have some ability (with the occasional arguably-correct prediction). Also, we know that her predictions are not always entirely unfounded. She did spot Sirius in her tea leaves and crystal ball, and Dumbledore confirms that she has made two correct predictions (which also helps explain why she has a job at Hogwarts). Even though Trelawney is not a pivotal character in PoA or GoF, her characterization is reasonably complete. The reactions of teachers and students to Lockhart, however, seem strangely muted in the face of more flagrant incompetence, particularly given the substantial number of scenes in which he appears. Professor Sprout merely scowls following Lockhart's condescending remarks. Hermione is inexplicably taken with Lockhart, but not based on any special relationship she develops with him. Professor McGonagall initially does not dispute Lockhart's claim of having made the attacks stop. Even the scene in which the other teachers assign Lockhart the task of subduing the attacker seems oddly subdued, as none of the teachers voices concrete concerns about Lockhart, and McGonagall suggests that he was given this task to get Lockhart "out from under our feet." Perhaps Lockhart's characterization would have improved with a few indications that he might in fact have some measure of wizarding talent, as we saw with Professor Trelawney. Regarding their respective abilities as teachers, no matter what one concludes about Trelawney's success (or lack of success) in Seeing, there is no question that the students actually do something when they attend her classes ? they try to See. With Lockhart, however, the students do next to nothing. Even if Lockhart is supposed to be devoid of wizarding talent, perhaps his characterization would be improved if the students had spent their class time battling or controlling dark creatures (unsuccessfully, of course), as they did with Hagrid's Flobberworms and Blast Ended Skrewts, or if they were studying creatures that Lockhart said are "dark" but that in fact were simply mundane. * * * * * Anyway, this is my attempt to put my finger on the Lockhart issue, and even after trying to spell it out in detail, I am still unsure that I have communicated my own "Lockhart" issues. There are many others in the group who can probably pin this down better than I can, and I'd love to hear any ideas out there if there's any interest in discussing it further. Cindy (who really did enjoy Lockhart's attempt to repair Harry's arm, the singing Valentine, and the portraits with hair rollers) From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Oct 11 17:00:49 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:00:49 -0000 Subject: Magical Ability Sliding Scale (WAS Filch, Squibs, and Kwikspell ) In-Reply-To: <9q45ju+vm7j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4j81+orj8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27508 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: Filch probably can use these because of his tiny amount of magical ability. He can probably see boggarts and dementors (it would be hard to be caretaker if he can't even observe things students can observe), and we know he can see Peeves.> Actually, Filch is the one who deals with boggarts inside the Hogwarts Castle. My books are at home right now, but doesn't Lupin tell his class that he asked Filch to leave the boggart hidden in the staff room so the class could use it? That leads me to believe that Filch, whether he uses magical products or knows some rudimentary spells, must possess *some* magical abilities (even if his abilities are next to nothing). How else would he be able to rid Hogwarts of boggarts? --jenny from ravenclaw ******************************************** From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 17:38:23 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:38:23 -0000 Subject: More Thoughts About Lockhart (LONG) In-Reply-To: <9q4j2j+jis1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4lef+obni@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27509 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: *Snip everthing* > Cindy I think you came close to the core of the problem. It shows up most vividly by your contrasting Trelawney with Lockhart. The difference is simply that Trelawney tries to her job as best she can. Since we all are incompetent in something, we can relate to that. We all have "been there." Lockhart, on the other hand, never teaches a thing. The one time he made a stab at it failed miserably. So he never once attempted to teach again. If Lockhart had simply stayed being a celebrity, pedaling his books, and winning his smile contests; I doubt we would dislike him so much. There you can be selfish. A teacher needs to be selfless. To sum up: Trelawney, you can respect. Lockhart, you can't. "What ere thou art, act well thou part." Marcus From joym999 at aol.com Thu Oct 11 17:43:19 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:43:19 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #15 LAST CHANCE!!!! Message-ID: <9q4lnn+mcbo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27510 This is it! Your very last chance to participate in this exciting contest! Send me your entries ASAP -- today, Thursday or early tomorrow. Here's the contest: Way back when, pigwidgeon37 said: ".. it is never made clear who nominates or elects the Minister of Magic." and Lyda Clunas speculated that "I'd imagine that there's some sort of board of Ministry officials or such, but who knows, perhaps it's a popular election. That would be interesting..." Interesting, indeed. Let's suppose there is an election and wizards and witches like Dumbledore, Fudge, Crouch, McGonagall, etc. had to run for office. What would their election campaigns be like? You tell us. Write a political slogan, campaign ad, or anything else campaign-related for a candidate for Minister of Magic. Your candidate can be a known HP character, or a character you make up. You can even run for Minister of Magic yourself. (Make the most of it...you're not likely to get another opportunity.) As an example, I suspect that if Gilderoy Lockhart were running for MoM, his campaign slogan would be something along the line of: "Vote for Lockhart -- The Only Wizard with a Smile Dazzling Enough to Defeat the Dark Lord!" Email your entry to me at HP4GUCon at a... or to the above address. (Make sure you save your entry, and send it a second time if you don't receive a response from me.) You've got a week or so. May the best wizard win. From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 19:31:29 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:31:29 -0000 Subject: Emotional Impact of CoS In-Reply-To: <9q38q3+dmrv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4s2h+ni04@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27511 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > > Hmmm ... I think some of the more poignant phrases come in the > > Dumbledore/Harry conversation at the end of CoS. > > > > "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled *that* out of the hat." > > > > AND, my favorite: > > > > "...nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." > > >For example, if you look at all the Harry/Dumbledore > conversations at the end of the books -- they are all excellent-- but > some are more excellent than the others. IMO, the one in CoS is the > weakest in terms of emotional resonance. I would disagree - I personally found the one at the end of GOF probably the worst - but like you mentioned, ranking is rather silly really. After reading all the messages on the subject I've begun to rethink my own feelings on COS and while some of my primary dislikes remain - namely Dobby and Myrtle (I just can't stand them) - I think I probably prefer it to PS. Certainly I prefer the plot of the Chamber of Secrets to the actual plot in PS (after he's got to school, and the whole mystery starts, I mean). I didn't see the Tom Riddle thing coming (then again it was about 2 AM in the morning) and I did enjoy the last climatic scene a lot. Really showed me Harry and Ron's heroic side, in a better way to me than PS did. As well as containing probably my favourite image (Fred and George's "Make way for the Heir of Slytherin" bit never fails to bring me a smile) and I actually highly enjoyed Lockheart's character. > Strangely enough, I have no problem with either the plot or the > characters in CoS. In fact, I think it has a clever plot twist and > wonderful characters, Dobby in particular. The only other problem I > have with it is Snape's relatively minor involvement. Neither do I - I also actually liked the way the boys were saved from Aragog - and as we are going to see the spider again, there's a chance that they'll have to escape this time on their own. To be honest, the book I have the biggest problem plotwise is Prisoner. (Well, I suppose it does slightly annoy me that GOF doesn't really have a plot - it rambles and then it suddenly and illogically jolts to an end. But that's another arguement). I don't care if it was revealed cleverly through Hermione or not - using time travel to solve all the big problems at the end has to be the biggest let down and cheat ever. It completely undermines a lot of events in the books - and Dumbledore's excuse for why it can't be used (and even more so that they let Hermione use it despite that) is just ridiculous. Just IMO of course, Jon From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 11 19:37:31 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:37:31 -0000 Subject: Marauders' Map Blocked Passage Message-ID: <9q4sdr+upf8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27512 Here's another question, and I sincerely hope that it isn't too terribly dumb. In PoA, Fred and George tell Harry that there are 7 secret passages on the Marauder's Map, and Harry observes that "many of them seemed to lead" to Hogsmeade. One starts at the one-eyed witch and leads to Honeydukes. One starts at the Whomping Willow. Filch knows about 4 of them. The last is the "one behind the mirror on the fourth floor." Fred says that they "used it until last winter, but it's caved in -- completely blocked." In CoS, Ron, Lockhart and Harry are in a tunnel, which leads from Moaning Myrtle's (which floor?) and caves in when Ron's wand backfires. Is JKR referring to the same tunnel Fred and George say was blocked, or does she perhaps have something else in mind for the blocked tunnel on the Marauder's Map? Cindy From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Oct 11 19:52:03 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:52:03 -0000 Subject: Marauders' Map Blocked Passage In-Reply-To: <9q4sdr+upf8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4t93+hhfn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27513 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > In CoS, Ron, Lockhart and Harry are in a tunnel, which leads from > Moaning Myrtle's (which floor?) and caves in when Ron's wand > backfires. Is JKR referring to the same tunnel Fred and George say > was blocked, or does she perhaps have something else in mind for the > blocked tunnel on the Marauder's Map? I always figured the fourth-floor tunnel is a different passage on a much higher level which fell in when part of the structure beneath it collapsed in the same cave-in that nearly closed the tunnel to the Chamber of Secrets. Pippin who wants to know if Snape can see himself in that mirror! From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Oct 11 19:55:35 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:55:35 -0000 Subject: More Thoughts About Lockhart (LONG) In-Reply-To: <9q4lef+obni@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4tfn+rj0g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27514 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > > If Lockhart had simply stayed being a celebrity, pedaling his books, > and winning his smile contests; I doubt we would dislike him so > much. There you can be selfish. A teacher needs to be selfless. > > To sum up: Trelawney, you can respect. Lockhart, you can't.> First I must say that I very much enjoyed Cindy's comments about Lockhart. His caricature-ness drove me up the wall when I first read CoS and it still does now, but Cindy pointed out quite well that there is more to dislike about Lockhart than meets the eye. :-) As for what Prefectmarcus wrote I'll have to grudgingly agree. I don't like Trelawney at all, but she does teach and she does know her stuff. One can be full of s**t and still know hiser subject very well. I *don't* think Trelawney saw much of anything in Harry's tea leaves, but she knows how to set up the tea-leaf reading, crystal-ball gazing and all the other kinds of things one uses to make predictions. Lockhart was a bumbling moron through and through. So there. --jenny from ravenclaw, who worked with a teacher last year who made Lockhart look as capable as Dumbledore ********************************************************* From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 20:04:31 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:04:31 -0000 Subject: The new DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <9q2vvf+aodu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4u0f+m755@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27515 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pegasus0580 at y... wrote: > If Krum was to return in the OOP and is too old to get into Hogwarts > as a student, what if he becomes the DADA teacher? I think that is > definitely a possibility--although I'd like to see a female DADA > teacher. He does have a lot of experience with the dark arts since > he went to Durmstrang. And I think I heard somewhere that he would > be back. > Gotta go > Sharlene--thinks too much about HP, not enough about biotech project. I do believe JKR has said herself we will see a female DADA teacher. -Megan From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 20:04:49 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Lockhart? In-Reply-To: <9q4lef+obni@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011011200449.25228.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27516 A good question actually, what possessed Dumbledore to accept this empty blowhard as DADA instructor? One might speculate....We have been told Dumbledore has a vain streak, (one might guess this for oneself what with the flowing hair and robes and his praise of his own brilliance) it is possible he sees something of himself in Gilderoy Lockhart. Dumbledore has mastered his vanity, it is no more than an endearing weakness that helps humanize the 'greatest living wizard'. Gilderoy on the other hand has been mastered by it and all but destroyed himself as a person and a wizard. Dumbledore may have hired Lockhart in the hope he could help him but was distracted by the Basilisk and other crises. I have already commented that the memoryless Lockhart seems a much nicer person. Thanks to Ron's malfunctioning wand Gilderoy now has a chance to literally start over from the begining - and maybe become a better man than he was. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 20:15:56 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:15:56 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q48tb+iuad@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4uls+4aa5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27517 > Now for the big question - I have told Work Friend about the exciting > new scene thing and she casually said 'oh, I'll ring up and find out > what that's about' - so shall I post here? Or not? Personally I'm > not sure that I even want to know as I quite like waiting for > surprises (no point opening all your pressies on Xmas eve, is there) > so I may end up telling Work Friend not to tell me, but if enough > people say that they're desperate to find out I'll try and do so... > > Julie (Boolean the Fox) Are you kidding? Of COURSE you should find out and post it! It'll only give us something more to anaysis out the wazoo... -Megan From devika261 at aol.com Thu Oct 11 20:19:20 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:19:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauders' Map Blocked Passage Message-ID: <42.1bab8149.28f758c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27518 In a message dated Thu, 11 Oct 2001 3:40:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: > Here's another question, and I sincerely hope that it isn't too > terribly dumb. > > In PoA, Fred and George tell Harry that there are 7 secret passages > on the Marauder's Map, and Harry observes that "many of them seemed > to lead" to Hogsmeade. One starts at the one-eyed witch and leads to > Honeydukes. One starts at the Whomping Willow. Filch knows about 4 > of them. The last is the "one behind the mirror on the fourth > floor." Fred says that they "used it until last winter, but it's > caved in -- completely blocked." > > In CoS, Ron, Lockhart and Harry are in a tunnel, which leads from > Moaning Myrtle's (which floor?) and caves in when Ron's wand > backfires. Is JKR referring to the same tunnel Fred and George say > was blocked, or does she perhaps have something else in mind for the > blocked tunnel on the Marauder's Map? > This passage is the one that opens from the sink in Myrtle's bathroom and only opens when Harry speaks in Parseltongue, right? If it is, then I doubt that this passage is the same as the one Fred and George used for two reasons: 1) The passage leads to the Chamber of Secrets, not to Hogsmeade, unless there's another branch of it that goes somewhere else. But then if it was the same passage, wouldn't Fred and George have explored it before--and come across the Chamber? 2) Since Harry was the only one with the ability to open the passage, I doubt that this particular tunnel was on the Marauder's Map at all. The Map was made as a result of MWPP's explorations of Hogwarts, and they certainly did discover many secrets about the school. However, unless one of them could speak Parseltongue, I doubt that they would have found this passage. And then, if they had, they would probably have discovered the Chamber of Secrets as well. I hope this helps! Devika, who is now wondering if the other Hogwarts founders, namely Gryffindor, had their own secret chambers inside the school.... From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 11 20:26:17 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:26:17 -0000 Subject: Why Lockhart? In-Reply-To: <20011011200449.25228.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q4v99+ub69@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27519 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > A good question actually, what possessed Dumbledore > to accept this empty blowhard as DADA instructor? > One might speculate....We have been told Dumbledore > has a vain streak, (one might guess this for oneself > what with the flowing hair and robes and his praise of > his own brilliance) it is possible he sees something > of himself in Gilderoy Lockhart. I can quite see this. What concerns me, though, is that we have heard about this "vanity" of Dumbledore's through an article, quoting a costume designer, quoting JKR - so it is, at best, third hand and therefore not canon. This is what concerns me about this disparity between book and movie: it seems likely that we are going to end up saying that the movie, and related articles are going to become canon whether we like it or not. This is very different from the kind of data Steve collects, as he only uses as canon direct quotes from JKR herself. I am sure that I am going to enjoy the movie - I have been looking forward to it for months. However, I do want the film/interviews/articles about the film to be viewed as canon in the same way as the books/comments from JKR about the books. It is just too confusing for words. Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 11 20:30:57 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:30:57 -0000 Subject: Why Lockhart? In-Reply-To: <9q4v99+ub69@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4vi1+nj5n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27520 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch > wrote: > > A good question actually, what possessed Dumbledore > > to accept this empty blowhard as DADA instructor? > > One might speculate....We have been told Dumbledore > > has a vain streak, (one might guess this for oneself > > what with the flowing hair and robes and his praise of > > his own brilliance) it is possible he sees something > > of himself in Gilderoy Lockhart. > > > I can quite see this. What concerns me, though, is that we have > heard about this "vanity" of Dumbledore's through an article, quoting > a costume designer, quoting JKR - so it is, at best, third hand and > therefore not canon. > > This is what concerns me about this disparity between book and > movie: it seems likely that we are going to end up saying that the > movie, and related articles are going to become canon whether we like > it or not. This is very different from the kind of data Steve > collects, as he only uses as canon direct quotes from JKR herself. > > I am sure that I am going to enjoy the movie - I have been looking > forward to it for months. However, I do want the > film/interviews/articles about the film to be viewed as canon in the > same way as the books/comments from JKR about the books. It is just > too confusing for words. > > Catherine Erm, my previous message was too confusing for words as well. I meant to say that I' DON'T want the film, etc. regarded as canon. Duh!!!!!!! Catherine From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 20:31:15 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:31:15 -0000 Subject: Emotional Impact of CoS In-Reply-To: <9q4s2h+ni04@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q4vij+aol9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27521 > To be honest, the book I have the biggest problem plotwise is > Prisoner. > > (Well, I suppose it does slightly annoy me that GOF doesn't really > have a plot - it rambles and then it suddenly and illogically jolts > to an end. But that's another arguement). > > I don't care if it was revealed cleverly through Hermione or not - > using time travel to solve all the big problems at the end has to be > the biggest let down and cheat ever. It completely undermines a lot > of events in the books - and Dumbledore's excuse for why it can't be > used (and even more so that they let Hermione use it despite that) is > just ridiculous. I understand how time travel can seem like the "cheap" way out, but the method in which they used it was crafty, you have to admit. Personally, POA was my favorite plot-wise (then again, I suppose I am a bit of an angst fan). I don't see how it "undermines" the events in the books--perhaps you could elaborate more clearly on that. Upon more thinking (namely, me sitting here at my computer and looking at what I'd written really hard), the plot of POA does seem a little weak. What is it based on, really? Harry's mysterious gifts--and what really happened to Sirius Black? COS' plot was a development of mysteries surrounding the attacks on students. POA was less of a mystery and more based on Harry discovering more and more details of his parents' (father's) life and demise. Yes, POA has a climax, building action, all that mumbo-jumbo...I suppose it comes as a matter of perspective...if you see a plot as in involving a mystery (isn't the proper English-class definition a "problem"?) then POA can be arguably "weak" in plot structure (and I suppose GOF falls into this category??), while PS and COS would remain strong. -Megan (who has just torn apart her favorite book!!) From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 20:47:39 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:47:39 -0000 Subject: Slapstick Dementors? In-Reply-To: <9q4i57+6v3c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q50hb+r7sb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27522 > > Maybe they use some sort of echolocation like bats? ;) Since > > they heard Sirius talk in his sleep, they must be able to hear > > sounds. Just an idea. > > Maybe they have some magical way of navigating. We are, after all, > talking about creatures who can suck people's souls out through their > mouths, and we don't wonder about the physics behind that. > > Amy Z > Maybe they have some magical way of navigating. We are, after all, > talking about creatures who can suck people's souls out through their > mouths, and we don't wonder about the physics behind that. > > Amy Z So are those souls like eating a giant candy bar to them? You have to wonder if Dementors become emaciated (snickers at thought of anoexic demontor) if they don't suck enough souls? Maybe it's like vampires & blood--just a bit more costly to the donator, no? And how are they REALLY controlled?? Assumingly brainless-ness, how are these dementors instucted to keep Azkabanians at bay? -Megan (who has proudly finally figured out how to make her name appear in the Author column rather than an unsightly e-mail address) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 11 21:11:50 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:11:50 -0000 Subject: In Defense of PoA (WAS Emotional Impact of CoS) In-Reply-To: <9q4vij+aol9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q51uo+u3ft@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27523 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: > > I understand how time travel can seem like the "cheap" way out, but > the method in which they used it was crafty, you have to admit. > Personally, POA was my favorite plot-wise (then again, I suppose I am > a bit of an angst fan). I don't see how it "undermines" the events in > the books--perhaps you could elaborate more clearly on that. > > Upon more thinking (namely, me sitting here at my computer and looking > at what I'd written really hard), the plot of POA does seem a little > weak. What is it based on, really? Harry's mysterious gifts--and > what really happened to Sirius Black? COS' plot was a development of > mysteries surrounding the attacks on students. POA was less of a > mystery and more based on Harry discovering more and more details of > his parents' (father's) life and demise. Yes, POA has a climax, > building action, all that mumbo-jumbo...I suppose it comes as a matter > of perspective...if you see a plot as in involving a mystery (isn't > the proper English-class definition a "problem"?) then POA can be > arguably "weak" in plot structure (and I suppose GOF falls into this > category??), while PS and COS would remain strong. > Now it is one thing to criticize CoS, and quite another to criticize PoA. :) I agree that PoA is a fundamentally different book than CoS because the latter is a mystery. (And no, I won't bore everyone with all that stuff I said about why the two mysteries don't work as well as the two adventures, I promise). But my lay understanding is that a plot requires that the hero have some problem to solve, some issue to confront, and that he solve it or confront it, preferably with lots of conflict and obstacles tossed in to keep things interesting. In PoA, the "problem" is winning the Quiddich cup. That's really the main plot line (I think). To do that, Harry has to overcome the dementors, keep Black from killing him, defeat his romantic interest, and catch the snitch before his archrival. That does add up to a plot. What I think makes the book charming despite this plot is that the sub-plots are so compelling, and Harry's Impending Sense Of Doom escalates throughout the book. Sub-plots include Buckbeak, Lupin v. Snape, sneaking to Hogsmeade, and the flight from the Dursleys. Also, PoA is just plain funny in a lot of ways. As for whether time travel is a cheap trick, well . . . yes, it is. Just like plots that tell us at the end that the whole thing was just a Bad Dream. The difference is that the Bad Dream gimmick is often used to resolve all of the problems -- poof! they just never happened. But in PoA, JKR plays fair with the time travel gimmick because she uses it sparingly. It is used to solve two problems. One problem is saving Sirius/Buckbeak, and the other is generating a big Patronus to save Harry, Hermione and Sirius. And even then, the time-turner only provides the opportunity for these rescues -- our hero still has to use his talent and wit to make it happen. All other problems are resolved in the regular way. Except for the problems that can't be resolved and deny us a happy ending, that is. Time travel doesn't prevent Wormtail from escaping, doesn't clear Sirius' name, doesn't prevent Lupin from transforming and losing his job, and doesn't prevent Harry from going back to the Dursleys. Had JKR used the handy time turner to address these problems as well, it would have been way too handy. Her restrained use of time travel causes it to work, IMHO. And the fact that PoA does not have an entirely happy ending like PS/SS and CoS is one reason I find PoA more satisfying. Cindy (who will defend GoF another day) From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 21:35:38 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:35:38 -0000 Subject: In Defense of PoA (WAS Emotional Impact of CoS) In-Reply-To: <9q51uo+u3ft@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q53ba+9sig@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27524 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > What I think makes the book charming despite this plot is that the > sub-plots are so compelling, and Harry's Impending Sense Of Doom > escalates throughout the book. Sub-plots include Buckbeak, Lupin v. > Snape, sneaking to Hogsmeade, and the flight from the Dursleys. > Also, PoA is just plain funny in a lot of ways. Agreed. I like POA - doesn't mean I can't criticise it. > As for whether time travel is a cheap trick, well . . . yes, it is. > Just like plots that tell us at the end that the whole thing was just > a Bad Dream. The difference is that the Bad Dream gimmick is often > used to resolve all of the problems -- poof! they just never > happened. But in PoA, JKR plays fair with the time travel gimmick > because she uses it sparingly. It is used to solve two problems. > One problem is saving Sirius/Buckbeak, and the other is generating a > big Patronus to save Harry, Hermione and Sirius. And even then, the > time-turner only provides the opportunity for these rescues -- our > hero still has to use his talent and wit to make it happen. All > other problems are resolved in the regular way. > > Except for the problems that can't be resolved and deny us a happy > ending, that is. Time travel doesn't prevent Wormtail from escaping, > doesn't clear Sirius' name, doesn't prevent Lupin from transforming > and losing his job, and doesn't prevent Harry from going back to the > Dursleys. Had JKR used the handy time turner to address these > problems as well, it would have been way too handy. Her restrained > use of time travel causes it to work, IMHO. I'm not saying that the ending wasn't cleverly done - just, well, its still a cheap trick:- Harry: Oh no! What are we going to do? Sirius is going to die! Hermione: Oh, by the way Harry, did I ever tell you that I can time travel? Harry: Wizards can do that? But what about saving my parents? Or Cedric in Book 4 that I shouldn't know about but Jon is inserting to make a point? Hermione: Ah... but you see Harry - time travel is far too dangerous to be used ever. Except, of course for the stunningly important matter of helping me take a few more lessons. etc. Time travelling in a story that isn't based on it - in a plot that isn't based on it - when its introduced out of the blue (and no, Hermione's schedule doesn't count) just feels to me a lot like cheating. Bit Deus Ex Machina as well, really. Jon From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 11 21:48:03 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:48:03 -0000 Subject: In Defense of PoA (WAS Emotional Impact of CoS) In-Reply-To: <9q53ba+9sig@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q542k+9fv1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27525 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jonathandupont at h... wrote: > I'm not saying that the ending wasn't cleverly done - just, well, its > still a cheap trick:- > > Harry: Oh no! What are we going to do? Sirius is going to die! > Hermione: Oh, by the way Harry, did I ever tell you that I can time > travel? > Harry: Wizards can do that? But what about saving my parents? Or > Cedric in Book 4 that I shouldn't know about but Jon is inserting to > make a point? > Hermione: Ah... but you see Harry - time travel is far too dangerous > to be used ever. Except, of course for the stunningly important > matter of helping me take a few more lessons. > etc. > > Time travelling in a story that isn't based on it - in a plot that > isn't based on it - when its introduced out of the blue (and no, > Hermione's schedule doesn't count) just feels to me a lot like > cheating. Bit Deus Ex Machina as well, really. > Uh, oh. Now I feel kinda silly, because you make some good points. :-) <*struggles to re-group*> Um, well, you see, Time Turners are so hidously important and valuable that they can only be used for mundane things like taking extra classes. Otherwise, the world would tip right off of its axis, you see, and we can't have that. So that's why Hermione is allowed to have it for something mundane like studying, but McGonagall would have slammed a door in Hermione's face had Hermione asked to obtain a time turner directly to assist in the defeat of the most terrible Dark Wizard who ever lived. As for Important Things like saving Cedric, well, it would never work because Harry would never be able to find Cedric in the maze and make him not touch the portkey, you see. And, um, as for James and Lily's deaths, we can't alter that either, because, well, the only reason Voldemort fell the first time is because the attack on Harry failed, you see, so as painful as it is that Harry is an orphan, we have to let them stay dead so that Voldemort won't be such a menace. Cindy (thinking maybe she won't bother to defend GoF after all and will instead bash Quiddich Through The Ages) From allyse1138 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 22:08:04 2001 From: allyse1138 at yahoo.com (Allyse) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:08:04 +0200 Subject: Dumbledore's vanity In-Reply-To: <1002832263.2379.1610.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011012000532.009ecb40@actcom.co.il> No: HPFGUIDX 27526 At 08:31 PM 11/10/01 +0000, Catherine wrote in response to Rowena: >What concerns me, though, is that we have >heard about this "vanity" of Dumbledore's through an article, quoting >a costume designer, quoting JKR - so it is, at best, third hand and >therefore not canon. But we do have canon evidence of Dumbledore's vanity. The way he cheerfully tells Harry that his idea re the PS in the MoE was brilliant, even for him, always sets my teeth on edge. There may be more of Lockhart in Dumbledore than we all care to admit. :) Allyse From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 23:39:06 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:39:06 -0000 Subject: In Defense of PoA In-Reply-To: <9q542k+9fv1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q5aiq+p4h3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27527 > <*struggles to re-group*> Um, well, you see, Time Turners are so > hidously important and valuable that they can only be used for > mundane things like taking extra classes. Otherwise, the world would > tip right off of its axis, you see, and we can't have that. So > that's why Hermione is allowed to have it for something mundane like > studying, but McGonagall would have slammed a door in Hermione's face > had Hermione asked to obtain a time turner directly to assist in the > defeat of the most terrible Dark Wizard who ever lived. *ah yes, the agony of criticizing POA!* I still maintain that POA lacks a focal point. In fact, that is the pivotal point (I believe) of the difference between the first two books and the last two. PS and COS had a SET and DEFINED plot/focal point. There is no confusion what the story is leading up to (yes, I do know that this falls under a difference of mystery vs. adventure), whereas in GOF and POA, several things are going on at once. Can we really pinpoint the climax and resolution of POA at all? You said it was the Quidditch Final...personally, I think the "plot" (as defined as a plot) has to have something to do with Sirius Black (after all, isn't he the CAUSE of the complications?). THAT is the point. The fact that there IS a disagreement as to the plot--it should be obvious to the basic reader, or am I wrong? >Time travelling in a story that isn't based on it - in a plot that >isn't based on it - when its introduced out of the blue (and no, >Hermione's schedule doesn't count) just feels to me a lot like >cheating. Bit Deus Ex Machina as well, really. As to Time Turner: in a normal situation, time travel IS cheap. I have to agree with Cindy that JKR manages this tricky situation rather well. I think it works. By NOT making the turner a point IN the story makes it all the better--it's unexpected. Well, I guess it boils down to this (for me)--what ELSE could she have done? Is there REALLY any other way for them to have rescued Sirius? (and yes, Sirius had to be caught somehow--pivotal elements in novel--also must be resuced for GOF to be plausible) -Megan thinks about tackling GOF another day...or letting Jon do it, since he's so much better at it. From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 23:49:53 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape the Unsung Hero In-Reply-To: <9q4v99+ub69@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011011234953.70277.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27528 I'm sure many of you are already acquainted with this short essay: "http://geocities.com/lumen_dei/snape.html". In fact one of you probably wrote it. ;) The author raises two excellent points, firstly Snape's courage. I have long thought our Potions Master probably has more sheer guts than anybody else in the series, (with the possible exception of Harry himself). cting as a spy in Voldy's camp was dangerous enough back in the bad old days but now when Snape is under suspicion, (and just how did he get Voldy to take him back I wonder?) it is not much short of suicidal. I admit to the gravest fears for our Severus' life. I have this awful feeling he's going to die heroically at some point in the series - leaving Harry and co. decidedly conflicted over his memory. The writer's second point, that Harry should have acknowledged Snape's efforts to protect him in SS, has occured to me too. Suppose Harry *had* gone to Snape and thanked him, (through clenched teeth no doubt) for saving his life and maybe even apologized for suspecting him might that not have kept their relationship from plunging to virulent depths it has? I feel an acknowledgement of the debt Harry owes him would have softened Snape at least a little. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From pretzelgirl133 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 00:55:37 2001 From: pretzelgirl133 at yahoo.com (Jilly) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In defense of PoA, and Why Lockhart? In-Reply-To: <9q53ba+9sig@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011012005537.36224.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27529 My first post, so I'm a little nervous... >>Hermione: Ah... but you see Harry - time travel is far too dangerous to be used ever. Except, of course for the stunningly important matter of helping me take a few more lessons.>> and of course for saving the ever-popular Godfather. Actually, I found the time-travel bit at the end less convenient than the chapters preceding it where the "truth about Scabbers" comes out. I remember reading the chapters in in the Shrieking Shack thinking "my, this seems rather difficult to believe" I guess I was really identifying with Harry at that point :) If Pettigrew hadn't finally broken down and admitted working for Voldemort, I really would have had issues with it. "Oh, Sirius *just* was choking Harry, and said he killed Harry's parents, but look, here's the rat, he's an animagus, and his finger is missing." Of course, all these revelations occurred for me at about 1 AM (yes, I read PoA fastest of the four, in just under 8 hours, so that might also account for my missing many other details the first time through...) Not that I'm complaining. PoA is still my favorite book. now, on to Lockhart... I always felt that Dumbledore hired him because perhaps Dumbledore wanted to see how authentic this man was. Dumbledore seems to know things that the rest of the wizarding world doesn't, so maybe he figured either Lockhart would prove himself to be what he promotes himself as, or not. But maybe I've gotten to used to the idea that the Hogwarts Headmaster knows (almost) everything. (I was very surprised he didn't know about the MWPP activities during their school days and that he believed Sirius was guilty) That said, if Dumbledore just hired Lockhart because he seemed the best man for the job, why didn't he hire Lupin a year earlier? At the end of CoS, he says he is going to draft and advertisement, and maybe Lupin did get the job through that advertisement, but isn't it also possible Dumbledore specifically wanted him at Hogwarts after Sirius' escape (remember at the Welcoming Feast, Dumbledore introduces Lupin by saying "has kindly consented to fill the... position")? Maybe not. Maybe that's already been discussed. Jill - (whose spelling was atrocious until she spell-checked and proofread 3 times) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 02:09:51 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cast for the movies Message-ID: <20011012020951.3299.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27530 Love the idea of Walken, and you could explain his age away with the fact in Azkaban, the Dementors caused him to age, however, JKR wants a completely Brit cast... however using someone like Mena Suvari as Fleur just might work. Who knows.. By the way, I heard Grant had been casted as Lockhart or is Cummings as other posts have stated??? Laura --- Jos? de Paula Eufr?sio J?nior wrote: > Have you people made a thread about who you would > like to be in some roles in > the other books? > > Well, here I go with some people I like: > > Lockhart -> Already choosed, but Hugh Grant was > perfect :( > Sirius Black -> Christofer Walken? Or maybe he is > too old? But he has the > "blackness" for the role... > Lupin -> I can't think in anybody :P > Fleur -> Mena Suvari (American Pie 1/2, American > Beauty...), she has the > "weird beauty" that I imagine in Fleur. > Voldemort -> Sean Connery (uhahahaha, out of plans, > and Sean could make > people actually LIKE Voldemort). > > > []s > Junior > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Oct 12 02:44:11 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:44:11 +1000 Subject: CoS, and in defence of Lockhart Message-ID: <002401c152c7$e585b840$b0856fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27531 I have long noted that CoS seems the least popular of the books, which I find odd, given that the phenomenal success of the HP series must surely hinge heavily on the success of the *second* book. I confess to finding Dobby a bit grating (I like him better in GoF), and finding the Basilisk's poor hit rate a bit too fortuitous, but don't share many of the other objections. I liked Ford Anglia to the rescue - after all, JKR *did* plant him in the forest at the start, it isn't an entire Deus Ex Machina. I find Lockhart hilarious, and Moaning Myrtle quite amusing. I don't see the problem with the Whomping Willow. I think that CoS reveals a vast amount of fundamental background information about the Potterverse and has a lot of interesting themes: Squibs, the founders, Tom Riddle and Voldemort, the essential fickleness of popularity (as both Harry and Lockhart found), important characterisation of the Malfoys... seems pretty good to me. Though I'd put PoA first, together with most people, I think GoF is much more of a shambles than CoS. CoS, despite a few holes, is tightly plotted and has an ingenious and surprising climactic twist. GoF wanders on and on, shows signs of plot device desperation to achieve the desired ends, and its central event, the Triwizard Tournament, and climax in the graveyard are much more holey and implausible than anything in CoS, IMO. I have to wonder whether JKR's editors were getting too awestruck to wield the machete. If she'd given *me* the manuscript (O well, one can dream), I would have have been much more brutal with the axe and the pruning shears (and then fled before a team of HP4GU members took up their own axes and pruning shears to hunt me down). I'm sure at least 100 pages could have bitten the cutting room floor without crucial loss to the plot. Cindy: > I wonder if there is a sliding scale for magical ability. I was thinking that a squib is a wizard, but is a failed wizard. (Isn't Filch described somewhere as a "failed wizard"? I can't find the reference.) < It's Terry Pratchett's Rincewind who is regularly described as a failed wizard. Now, while everyone is deriding Lockhart, are there any thoughts about *his* level of magical ability? When rereading CoS I couldn't help wondering if he was the Slytherin class dunce, who, being a totally undistinguished student with moderate ability at Charms only, found other ways to achieve his ambitions for fame and fortune (could he have been at school at the same time as the Marauders?). In some ways, you have to hand it to him - ludicrous and underhand as he is, he did a very good job of achieving fame, fans and recognition for a weak wizard. vheggie: > Lockhart? Despite his being described as having blond hair, I cannot see him as anyone except our own Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen... > In order to justify this post, I ought also to say that I feel that Mr Lockhart gets an unecessarily bad press; yes he does appear to be a caricature - but for good reason, he IS one. Bear in mind that the person you see is not Lockhart at all, but a carefully designed persona. We don't get to meet the 'real him' until he reveals his true nature towards the end of CoS.< Actually, you know, you may be onto something here about LLB... he does have the right cheesiness. Let me also raise my voice in support for your comments about Lockhart. As a character (distinct from as a person), I think Lockhart is great fun, and he is not so much fundamentally one-dimensional as projecting a carefully coiffed public image. As I mentioned above, in order to achieve what he has through deception and self-promotion and sneaky Memory Charms, I'd argue that he has to have an abnormally high level of craftiness, imagination, marketing ability, brains and cunning, which he is hiding most effectively behind the glitzy facade. I think he must be quite a complex character once you acknowledge that what he presents is not all there is. He has figured out how to make the most of his weak-chinned and weedy looks by playing up his 100 watt smile and perfect teeth and distractingly elaborate styling of his golden hair. He has successfully written a string of best-selling books (no mean feat, as any struggling author would tell you), even if they are partially works of fantasy rather than autobiography. His real problem, as I see it, is that he is not savvy enough to market himself as a teacher. He would have been much more sensible to turn down the Hogwarts job (I suspect he had a terrible time at school himself), rather than letting his vanity convince him that he could win them over too with the same tactics and get further kudos from the job. As vheggie points out, when we see the real him behind the facade, we see that he is actually cowardly and weak and selfish to the point of evil, but hey, doesn't this make the whole performance he's managed to pull off and convince the public with for years even more impressive? I think he's a great alternative villain and comic relief provider. Cindy: > Sadly, Lockhart has managed to tally only a few fans and no support group has even been proposed, so far as I know. As one of this happy minority, it's clearly up to me to start a support group. How about L.I.G.H.T.R.E.L.I.E.F. (Lockhart is Genuinely Hilarious Territory: a Really Entertaining Loser, If Evil Fellow)? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Fri Oct 12 04:51:02 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 04:51:02 -0000 Subject: First Crush - Sorting Harry - Forever - Message-ID: <9q5srm+4rj4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27532 Ethanol wrote: > That?s exactly what we see: Hermione?s first crush is Lockhart in > CoS, with Harry following a year later in PoA (when he notices Cho) > and Ron in the fourth year (when he notices Fleur). I hadn't thought before now that it might have been a crush, but Ron noticed Madam Rosmerta in third year. "A curvy sort of woman with a pretty face was serving a bunch of rowdy warlocks up at the bar. "That's Madam Rosmerta," said Ron. "I'll get the drinks, shall I?" he added, going slightly red." When I first read PoA, I thought that Ron was going slightly red because he was a little embarrassed at feeling a little proud of himself for buying a round, because of his money issues. When I returned to PoA after reading GoF, I realised that Ron was going slightly red because he was going to buy a round only as an excuse to go to the bar and try to look down Madam Rosmerta's neckline. I had thought that was merely seizing the convenient opportunity for some ogling, but he COULD have had a crush on her. > The other teachers where no match for Lockhart and the boys where > out of bounds yet. She COULD have had a crush on one of the older boys. Percy, Oliver, surely there are other Gryffindor boys in their year, or: how about Cedric? Prefect Marcus wrote: > It seems that many of us take the words of the Sorting Hat, "...you > [Harry] *would* have done well in Slytherin." to mean that the > Sorting Hat WAS going to put him there but was stopped because > Harry requested not to. I always read that scene as the Hat, once it finished studying Harry, was going to put him in Gryffindor anyway, but when "Harry step[ed] right into it with his strong opposition to Slytherin", the Hat decided to just tease him a little. Prefect Marcus wrote: > will give us some protection forever." Forever didn't last very > long, did it. Or does it? Well, so far it's lasted for nine and a half years of living in the cupboard under the stairs with abusive relatives and four years of Voldemort trying to kill him. Sharlene Pegasus wrote: > If Krum was to return in the OOP and is too old to get into > Hogwarts as a student, what if he becomes the DADA teacher? I doubt Krum, or anyone who's only 18, even Harry if he lives that long, has had enough hands-on Defense against Dark Arts experience to teach it. Maybe Krum could join the Hogwarts staff as a Quidditch teacher. Cindy wrote: > Now, does anyone have a feel for what JKR means by "hag" and > "warlock"? In the Potterverse, "hag"s are non-human magical beings. FABULOUS BEASTS says something about the level of disorganization when the wizarding folk called a conference of all magical people, like "hags roamed the conference hall in search of children to eat". "Warlock" is much tougher question. It can't be something bad, because one of the string of titles after Dumbledore's name on his letterhead is Chief Warlock, and Ernie MacMillan proclaims that he's descended from nine generations of witches and warlocks. And "Dragon breeding was outlawed by the Warlocks' Convention of 1709" and there is " section 13 of the International Confederation of Warlocks' Statute of Secrecy". But it doesn't make any sense to me that "warlock" would be synonymous and redundant with "wizard": a male magical human. So I invented a theory that 'warlock' is an M.P. -- an elected representative, wizard or witch, to a wizarding legislative assembly. Ron says "Dad was going frantic - it's only him and an old warlock called Perkins in the office" -- which I read to mean that Perkins was given the job by his old friends in the legislature after he lost a re-election campaign, and therefore can neither be expected to be competent, nor fired. And they can be 'wild-looking' in the Leaky Cauldron and 'rowdy' in the Three Broomsticks because their constituents are elsewhere. From blaise_writer at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 06:50:02 2001 From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:50:02 -0000 Subject: Number of students - new information Message-ID: <9q63qq+cv9q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27533 The Leaky Cauldron has a link to the front pages of 'Premier' magazine. One of these is a collection of Hogwarts facts and figures. It says that there are 400 students. Other figures are: The Hogwarts Library closes at 8pm. There are 278 days in a school year. 142 staircases in Hogwarts. Dragons outlawed in 1709. The link: http://www.thespellbinder.com/culture/premiere/fun.html I have no idea whether this is official from JKR, but it might breathe new life into the old question of how many students there are. Blaise. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Oct 12 09:25:51 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:25:51 -0000 Subject: Snape the Unsung Hero; Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <20011011234953.70277.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q6cuv+r959@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27534 Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > Acting as a spy in Voldy's camp was dangerous > enough back in the bad old days but now when Snape is > under suspicion, (and just how did he get Voldy to > take him back I wonder?) it is not much short of > suicidal. I admit to the gravest fears for our > Severus' life. I just want to point out that not all of us assume that Snape has gone back to spy on Voldemort. He could, for example, be sent out to try to get the vampire community to join Dumbledore, or to Azkaban to find out if the Dementors have joined Voldemort (my own favourite). But I agree that he is very brave, and like the point someone made about him being upset when Ginny was kidnapped. David, who does *not* want Harry to be the physical 'heir of Gryffindor', or Harry's blood to weaken or convert Voldemort, or James and Lily to have been inventing anti-AK protections, or even Snape to be a vampire. (But, it would be nice if Dumbledore turned out to be the heir of G, and in Book 7 he hands over the baton to common-born Harry, saying, 'Blood and descent can only take us so far. It is our choices that matter..') From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 10:34:01 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:34:01 -0000 Subject: Marauders' Map Blocked Passage In-Reply-To: <42.1bab8149.28f758c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <9q6gup+do69@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27535 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > 1) The passage leads to the Chamber of Secrets, not to Hogsmeade, unless there's another branch of it that goes somewhere else. But then if it was the same passage, wouldn't Fred and George have explored it before--and come across the Chamber? > > 2) Since Harry was the only one with the ability to open the passage, I doubt that this particular tunnel was on the Marauder's Map at all. The Map was made as a result of MWPP's explorations of Hogwarts, and they certainly did discover many secrets about the school. However, unless one of them could speak Parseltongue, I doubt that they would have found this passage. And then, if they had, they would probably have discovered the Chamber of Secrets as well. > > I hope this helps! I agree - no one knew where it was until then - not, I believe, even Dumbledore. > Devika, who is now wondering if the other Hogwarts founders, namely Gryffindor, had their own secret chambers inside the school.... Good idea! Gryffindor's - which only a true Gryffindor can open - Harry Potter(with the sword?). Ravenclaw - well, the key is to solve a riddle or something like that - Hermione/Cho Chang could open that one, I guess. And, Hufflepuff... Helga Hufflepuff's chamber to open anyone cabable of hard work... (Probably doing something very boring). From vderark at bccs.org Fri Oct 12 11:03:05 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:03:05 -0000 Subject: Number of students - new information In-Reply-To: <9q63qq+cv9q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6il9+62jr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27536 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Blaise" wrote: > The Leaky Cauldron has a link to the front pages of 'Premier' > magazine. One of these is a collection of Hogwarts facts and > figures. It says that there are 400 students. Other figures are: > > The Hogwarts Library closes at 8pm. > There are 278 days in a school year. > 142 staircases in Hogwarts. > Dragons outlawed in 1709. Almost all of the information on that list is canon, in other words it was revealed either in the books or by JKR in an interview before now. The exceptions are the number of school days and the number of students. There is no way to know if either of these facts comes from JKR. I personally think that the number of 400 looks about right, both visually on screen and logically. But we can't really consider this is "official." As for the number of days, we know that they start on 1 September and end in the third week of Juune (or pretty close to that...depends on the book, really). So how many days would that be? Are they counting weekends and holidays in that number? How many days do they take at Christmas and Easter? I'd have to really dig into a calendar to see if this number works, and I don't have time to do it. Steve Vander Ark canon fanatic (boom) From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 11:06:43 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:06:43 -0000 Subject: Life-debt Message-ID: <9q6is3+usf0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27537 To speculate future. 1) What will be the meaning of Wormtail's life-debt to Harry? And - is life-debt automatical among wizards, regardless of whether the wizards (witches) know of it? Is sense of honor/gratitude of any kind required? Would Harry be able to - sign a legal form in stead of Pettigrew because of that or something? Anyone have any ideas how life-debt effects? Pettigrew didn't have trouble in cutting Harry's blood to raise Voldemort... From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 11:34:40 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:34:40 -0000 Subject: In Defense of PoA (WAS Emotional Impact of CoS) In-Reply-To: <9q53ba+9sig@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6kgg+e0e3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27538 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jonathandupont at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > > I'm not saying that the ending wasn't cleverly done - just, well, its > still a cheap trick:- > > Harry: Oh no! What are we going to do? Sirius is going to die! > Hermione: Oh, by the way Harry, did I ever tell you that I can time > travel? > Harry: Wizards can do that? But what about saving my parents? Or > Cedric in Book 4 that I shouldn't know about but Jon is inserting to > make a point? > Hermione: Ah... but you see Harry - time travel is far too dangerous > to be used ever. Except, of course for the stunningly important > matter of helping me take a few more lessons. > etc. > > Time travelling in a story that isn't based on it - in a plot that > isn't based on it - when its introduced out of the blue (and no, > Hermione's schedule doesn't count) just feels to me a lot like > cheating. Bit Deus Ex Machina as well, really. Not really. It's not Deus ex Machina - Hermione's schedule had already introduced that possibility. It doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Harry had [i]already[/i] seen himself summoning the patronus - earlier. I also figure that he could do it because he KNEW he could. Magic works best when you believe in it, you know... It ONLY served to give Harry confidence. Also, it doesn't solve all problems. Sirius still has to run. Just a little device to take you back in time a bit. It also got to Hermione's nerves AND she gave it away because of that (After saving Sirius and Buckbeak) - so that's why he can't go back to save Cedric with it - they don't have it! Sirius wasn't cleared in GoF either - because Fudge refuses to believe Voldemort is back - except for Weasleys... So well, that's still the problem. But, it did help Harry a bit anyway! I just loved the scene where Harry told Vernon about his godfather... From vheggie at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 11:35:46 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:35:46 -0000 Subject: CoS - Snape - Lockhart - Fletcher Message-ID: <9q6kii+43ja@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27539 I've contributed my few knuts on a couple of occasions, but I haven't really introduced myself: I should at least say my name's Vanessa, to save people having to refer to me by my email address! I have a direct counterpart in the Potterverse ? I'm Professor Flitwick, or at least one of his acolytes, I research the history of Magic. No really, I write about Paracelsus, and alchemy, and everything. (Oh, OK, it's the history of science/medicine in this reality, but hey, it's close ). On topic In defence of CoS: What I really enjoy about the series, and it's something I was not expecting from a series of children's books, is the complexity of the plotting. Small details that come up as incidentals in early chapters, or early books, take on a new significance in later stories; it means that when my SO and I listen to the books (and we're dedicated audio versonalists) we're constantly listening for little details, trying to analyse peoples' names, second guessing "what will happen next". CoS provides a whole host of these preparations: The Whomping Willow, the House Elves, the History of Slytherin (and the other houses), many new characters (Creevey, Finch-Fletchly, etc), Floo powder, Lucius Malfoy (who is proved to be as nasty, if not nastier, than his son ? we don't just have to believe the rumours about him anymore), Voldemort's back history (the muggle-born/pure blood dichotomy)etc, etc, etc. I sincerely hope that a great number of the details I've noticed in CoS will become very important in the later books. Having said all that, I think CoS is my least favourite of all the books but that doesn't mean I `dislike' it One thing that really disturbed me about it was the poor Mandrakes! Anyone want to guess what horrible fate awaited them when they were made into a potion? In defence of Snape: I'll lay my cards on the table; I was a big, big Snape fan before I discovered that the delectable Mr Rickman was to play him now hairwashing in the Prefects' Bathroom is a recurring theme in many of my daydreams Having said that ? I think Snape is a classic example of the truism that "Not all good people must be Nice people". He appears to treat everyone equally badly, with the possible exception of the Slytherins, although, of course, we don't see how he acts with them alone, only through Harry's POV, and of course, Harry is biased. He has an unpopular teaching style, but it certainly seems to work ? none of the trio fail potions, and Hermione, at least, is capable of making very advanced brews (e.g. Polyjuice Potion). He has prejudices ? who doesn't? It's just that his views are less popular/common. Most importantly, Snape can clearly admit to being wrong, at least about the `big things' ? he defected from Voldemort, at the risk of his own life, when he realised that this was not the way he wanted to see things done. In defence of Lockhart: Why Lockhart? Dumbledore is not omniscient ? Lockhart has published several very good books, is well received in many quarters, is popular and famous for being a superb champion against the Dark Arts. Why on earth wouldn't Dumbledore want him as a teacher? He would probably interview really well for the job, and he certainly has a good CV. I've experienced people who have an excellent academic reputation, but have turned out, when faced with lectures and conferences, to be poor teachers, and when faced with detailed questioning, to be poor researchers, too. Unfortunately, once you've signed them up for a years contract, it's difficult to get rid of them And finally Mundungus Fletcher. A fletcher, I believe makes arrows ? there's also Christian Fletcher whose name is familiar, but I can't place it right now (a mutineer on the Bounty? A character in Treasure Island? I'm sure he was a sailor/pirate, or something along those lines). IIRC there is also a character called Fletcher in the Robin Hood myths. My latin dictionary offers no real leads ? does anyone have any pet theories? For some reason I find Mr Fletcher oddly compelling . From dai_evans at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 12:30:07 2001 From: dai_evans at yahoo.com (Dai Evans) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:30:07 -0000 Subject: Number of students - new information In-Reply-To: <9q6il9+62jr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6nof+u05b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27540 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > There are 278 days in a school year. > As for the number of days, we know that they start on 1 September and > end in the third week of Juune (or pretty close to that...depends on > the book, really). So how many days would that be? Are they counting > weekends and holidays in that number? How many days do they take at > Christmas and Easter? This is pretty simple to work out, as it's based on the british school year. It must include weekends, otherwise you get 55 weeks in the year (278/5). If, however you include weekends, then you get 39 weeks in the year. The other eleven are taken up by Christmas break ( 2 weeks), easter break (2 weeks), summer break (6 weeks) and a 1 week half term break per term, giving the other 13 weeks. Just like it was when I was in school. Dai From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 12:32:01 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:32:01 -0000 Subject: Warlocks In-Reply-To: <9q5srm+4rj4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6ns1+fihs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27541 Catlady wrote: > But it doesn't make any sense to me that > "warlock" would be synonymous and redundant with "wizard": a male > magical human. A lot of people share your view. Can someone explain it to me? Just as there are multiple English words for male nonmagical humans (men, guys, males), I figured "warlock" is a synonym for "wizard." It differs in that it has a bit more focus, in that you really would never use it for women, whereas "wizard" means both the male and the generic. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------ "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement. "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban ------------------------------------------------ From vheggie at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 12:54:24 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:54:24 -0000 Subject: Warlocks In-Reply-To: <9q6ns1+fihs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6p60+dt4f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27542 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Catlady wrote: > > > But it doesn't make any sense to me that > > "warlock" would be synonymous and redundant with "wizard": a male > > magical human. > > A lot of people share your view. Can someone explain it to me? > > Just as there are multiple English words for male nonmagical humans > (men, guys, males), I figured "warlock" is a synonym for "wizard." It > differs in that it has a bit more focus, in that you really would > never use it for women, whereas "wizard" means both the male and the > generic. > > Amy Z > IIRC (and please feel free to correct me) we only come across the word 'warlock' in the context of meetings, conferences and specific positions of power. I was always under the impression that it was a specific title; we don't come across characters saying "Oh, he's just some warlock or other", "I always wanted to be a warlock when I grew up" etc. I imagine it's something like MP, or perhaps it has no equivalent in the muggle world, roughly translated it would mean "Person who is acting in an official capacity"; or perhaps it's like the word 'Esquire' or the use of letters after one's name (B.Sc, MD, L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P etc) - terminology only used in formal situations. Vanessa (oh, wait a minute...Vanessa BSc MSc PhD Save Our Ron, etc :) ) From am025392 at skynet.be Fri Oct 12 12:58:30 2001 From: am025392 at skynet.be (Kristel Ponet) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:58:30 +0200 Subject: introduction + some thoughts Message-ID: <3BC6E8F6.80506@skynet.be> No: HPFGUIDX 27543 Hi! Time to de-lurk... Just finished the 5th reading of HP (I always read the lot, never only one) and I feel ready to put in my 5 Knuts! Well, I'm Kristel, 31, married, 2 yr old son. I'm from Belgium. And my pet hates are the Dutch HP translations, YUK! First of all some thoughts on the Priori Incantatem thingy. Don't scream! I'm perfectly aware of the editing fault and that my (wrong) copy of GoF will be worth zillions in the future, LOL. I'm talking about Steve's theory : that Harry was attacked first and his parents killed later - due to the fact that the spell cast on Harry did not appear when the two wands connected. Well, now over to some nitpicking... My copy of GoF (1st UK hardback edition) says on p. 605 (The Parting of the Ways) : "One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells it has performed - in reverse". (Dumbledore speaking). My point is : the text says spells and not the spells or all spells. Now, I'm a licensed translator and there is a hell of a difference between spells and the spells . In my opinion the line I quoted means that not all cast spells will appear, but only some. Which ones? Maybe only the ones that actually worked, and the spell on Harry didn't work, did it? On Snape now. Vanessa wrote : "Not all good people must be NICE people". Well, that just says it all I think. Remember the way Sirius describes Severus in his youth? "Slimy, oily, greasy-haired kid, he was "... Now imagine the whole school thinking that way about you when you are 15! *I* would turn to the Dark Arts if that were the only people who would have me... He came back though, didn't he. And I don't think he is a vampire, no way, but maybe an unregistered Animagus and guess what animal... yes, a bat! Have to cut this short, parental duties call! Kristel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From homanm at umich.edu Fri Oct 12 12:58:19 2001 From: homanm at umich.edu (homanm at umich.edu) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:58:19 -0000 Subject: CoS - Snape - Lockhart - Fletcher In-Reply-To: <9q6kii+43ja@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6pdb+6k0l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27544 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., vheggie at y... wrote: > In defence of CoS: > What I really enjoy about the series, and it's something I was > not expecting from a series of children's books, is the > complexity of > the plotting. Small details that come up as incidentals in early > chapters, or early books, take on a new significance in later > stories Having said all that, I think CoS is my least favourite of all the > books but that doesn't mean I `dislike' it One > thing that really > disturbed me about it was the poor Mandrakes! Anyone want to guess > what horrible fate awaited them when they were made into a potion? Oh! I'm so glad to know that I'm not the only one who worried about the Mandrakes. It seems a bit sick to make potions out of them, when they look and act like people (throwing parties, etc). That said, CoS is my least favorite of the four books as well, and I'm not really sure why. The ending confrontation in the Chamber is just as pyrotechnic as the climax in the Shack at the end of PoA (my favorite of the three), or maybe even more so. But the thing is, I think the reader is more emotionally invested in the end of PoA. The revelations about the fates of the mauraders, betrayed by one of their own, resonates with us because they're talking about the betrayal of the protagonist's father. If Pettigrew hadn't betrayed the Potters, Harry wouldn't have spent his childhood in a closet, performing slave labor for his nasty family. CoS, on the other hand, has a really big snake and all, but we know that Harry isn't going to die (we're not so sure about Pettigrew and/or Sirius at the end of PoA). And let's face it, are we really very emotionally invested in whether or not Justin Finch-Fletchley and Penelope Clearwater are un- petrified? Especially when we know that the potion to fix them up is in the works? I think CoS was basically a continuation of SS--JKR used the first two books to fill in backstory for her universe, so then in the third book and on she could begin dealing with the Voldemort conflict. JKR has said in a few interviews that I've read (I'm not sure which ones) that CoS is her favorite of the four so far, because it was the hardest to write. It's interesting, I think, that the least favorite of many listmembers is the favorite of the author. > > In defence of Lockhart: > Why Lockhart? Dumbledore is not omniscient ? Lockhart has > published several very good books, is well received in many quarters, > is popular and famous for being a superb champion against the Dark > Arts. Why on earth wouldn't Dumbledore want him as a teacher? > He would probably interview really well for the job, and he certainly > has a good CV. When Lockhart gets hit with his own memory charm, though, Dumbledore says to him something like, "Impaled on your own sword, Gilderoy?" This implies to me that Dumbledore was perfectly aware that Lockhart was a fake, and hired him anyway. > And finally > > Mundungus Fletcher. > My latin dictionary offers no real leads ? does anyone have any > pet theories? For some reason I find Mr Fletcher oddly > compelling . I don't know about there being a pirate named Fletcher, but Mundungus certainly sounds like an interesting person to be around, what with camping out at the World Cup under a cloak raised on sticks and breaking the laws about misuse of muggle artifacts. If you like fanfic, you might want to check out Irina's "The Rebirth" on schnoogle and fanfiction.net. Mundungus's son Michael, a Ravenclaw in Ginny's year, is a main character in the fic, and the kid has some interesting baggage from being raised by Mundungus. Plus, it's a really good story! Meg From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 12 13:00:42 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:00:42 -0000 Subject: A Wobbly, Half-Hearted Defense of GoF (WAS CoS, and in defence of Lockhart) In-Reply-To: <002401c152c7$e585b840$b0856fcb@price> Message-ID: <9q6phq+pk95@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27545 Tabouli wrote: I have to wonder whether JKR's editors were getting too awestruck to wield the machete. If she'd given *me* the manuscript (O well, one can dream), I would have have been much more brutal with the axe and the pruning shears (and then fled before a team of HP4GU members took up their own axes and pruning shears to hunt me down). I'm sure at least 100 pages could have bitten the cutting room floor without crucial loss to the plot. > I can't decide whether to lead the charge to defend GoF or just pile on. I really did like the book when I finished it, and it did what I like a book to do by the end -- make me say "Wow!" I wasn't bored, and I never considered abandoning the book. I bought the graveyard scene hook, line and sinker, I was totally blindsided about Crouch/Moody, and I like the unhappy ending. I thought the writing was more substantial (I didn't get the feeling that parts of paragraphs were missing as in CoS), and the one-liners were some of JKR's best. On the other hand, Tabouli makes great points. I too feel confident that I could trim 100+ pages out of GOF without breaking a sweat, although I am not sure I could flee HP4GU members quickly enough to avoid being hacked to bits. Most of the cuts would come out of "The Portkey", "Bagman and Crouch," "The Quiddich World Cup," "Dark Mark" and "Mayhem at the Ministry", which total almost 100 pages right there. That's an awful lot of background before the story really gets moving. "The Portkey" is about 10 pages of waking up, having breakfast, walking up a hill, and touching a boot. Those chapters would get collapsed into perhaps two chapters. (I wonder if the meandering nature of these 5 chapters has something to do with the plot glitch JKR discovered as she was writing GoF.) Nary a page of "The House Elf Liberation Front" sub-plot would survive -- 22 pages. That would leave enough room to keep "The Unexpected Task" and the "Yule Ball", because those chapters are priceless, even though they don't advance the plot much. But the "Yule Ball" is 30 pages, which is a bit windy considering it is mostly a diversion. Aside from the possibility that JKR's editors are awestruck, as Tabouli mentions, I am starting to feel that maybe there is an overemphasis on foreshadowing in GoF. For instance, we foreshadow Accio with Mrs. Weasley removing the toffees from Fred and George's pockets. But because the Summoning Charm is taught in class and then used in the First Task, we don't need Mrs. Weasley to foreshadow its use in the graveyard. We also repeat a lot of what happens in the "Dark Mark" when we get to "Padfoot Returns." We learn the Banishing Charm, but never use it. Maybe it comes up in later books? I just had this sense that GoF didn't really get rolling until we meet Moody and Harry's name comes out of the goblet. As a result of these concerns that the books seem to be getting "fatter", I am a little alarmed at the news that OoP is as long as GoF. I also wonder if Bagman and the gambling sub-plot could have been eliminated entirely. If he really isn't a DE and a pivotal character for OoP (as I think he must be), then he got an awful lot of attention in GoF. Anyway, these are just my opinions on GoF, and I seem to change my mind all the time about GoF, because it is still my second-favorite book after PoA. For what it is worth, I don't think two people could ever have the same exact views of the books, although I certainly enjoy these types of discussions. I was talking to my husband, and he thought Lockhart was among the best characters in the books, and didn't buy the Pettigrew-as-spy idea in PoA. Go figure. > Cindy: > > Sadly, Lockhart has managed to tally only a few fans and no support group > has even been proposed, so far as I know. > Tabouli: > As one of this happy minority, it's clearly up to me to start a support group. How about L.I.G.H.T.R.E.L.I.E.F. (Lockhart is Genuinely Hilarious Territory: a Really Entertaining Loser, If Evil Fellow)? > You win the award for best support group acronym! My husband will send his two sickles (assuming there's a membership fee). Cindy (getting discouraged that her two favorite HP books don't hold up as well to careful analysis as she thought they would, and pleading with other HP4GU members to bail her out) From margdean at erols.com Fri Oct 12 12:30:00 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:30:00 -0400 Subject: Fletcher References: <9q6kii+43ja@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BC6E248.165BC546@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27546 vheggie at yahoo.com wrote: > And finally? > > Mundungus Fletcher. A fletcher, I believe makes arrows - That's correct. (The "fletching" is actually the feathers on the arrow.) > there's also Christian Fletcher whose name is familiar, but I > can't place it right now (a mutineer on the Bounty? Almost right, but his name was actually Fletcher Christian. IIRC he led the mutiny on the Bounty. --Margaret Dean From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 12 13:12:17 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:12:17 -0000 Subject: Warlocks & Sorcerers In-Reply-To: <9q6p60+dt4f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6q7h+9h5l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27547 > > Catlady wrote: > > > > > But it doesn't make any sense to me that > > > "warlock" would be synonymous and redundant with "wizard": a male > > > magical human. > > Amy wrote: > > A lot of people share your view. Can someone explain it to me? > > > > Just as there are multiple English words for male nonmagical humans > > (men, guys, males), I figured "warlock" is a synonym for "wizard." > It > > differs in that it has a bit more focus, in that you really would > > never use it for women, whereas "wizard" means both the male and > the > > generic. > > > Vanessa wrote: > IIRC (and please feel free to correct me) we only come across the > word 'warlock' in the context of meetings, conferences and specific > positions of power. I was always under the impression that it was a > specific title; we don't come across characters saying "Oh, he's just > some warlock or other", "I always wanted to be a warlock when I grew > up" etc. > I imagine it's something like MP, or perhaps it has no equivalent in > the muggle world, roughly translated it would mean "Person who is > acting in an official capacity"; or perhaps it's like the > word 'Esquire' or the use of letters after one's name (B.Sc, MD, > L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P etc) - terminology only used in formal situations. > > The reference that caused me to ask about warlocks is in PoA: "It was extremely crowded, noisy, warm, and smoky. A curvy sort of woman with a pretty face was serving a bunch of rowdy warlocks up at the bar." Based on that, I formed the mental image that warlock isn't an honorific, nor is it the same as wizard. I figure it either means "man", whereas witch means "woman" and wizard means "person." Or warlock is a polite way of saying "wizard geezer." But then it doesn't make sense that Dumbledore would refer to himself as a "geezer" on his business card. So I guess it must mean "older and accomplished and senior wizard before whom one ought to bow and scrape." Now, what about "sorcerer?" Cindy ----------- Headmaster: Albus Dumbledore (Order of Merlin, First Class, Grand Sorc., Chf. Warlock, Supreme Mugwump, International Confed. of Wizards) From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de Fri Oct 12 13:18:38 2001 From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:18:38 -0000 Subject: First Crush - Sorting Harry - Forever - In-Reply-To: <9q5srm+4rj4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6qjf+4c7d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27548 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Ethanol wrote: > > > That?s exactly what we see: Hermione?s first crush is Lockhart in > > CoS, with Harry following a year later in PoA (when he notices Cho) > > and Ron in the fourth year (when he notices Fleur). > > I hadn't thought before now that it might have been a crush, but Ron > noticed Madam Rosmerta in third year. "A curvy sort of woman with a > pretty face was serving a bunch of rowdy warlocks up at the bar. > "That's Madam Rosmerta," said Ron. "I'll get the drinks, shall I?" he > added, going slightly red." > > When I first read PoA, I thought that Ron was going slightly red > because he was a little embarrassed at feeling a little proud of > himself for buying a round, because of his money issues. When I > returned to PoA after reading GoF, I realised that Ron was going > slightly red because he was going to buy a round only as an excuse to > go to the bar and try to look down Madam Rosmerta's neckline. I had > thought that was merely seizing the convenient opportunity for some > ogling, but he COULD have had a crush on her. Yes, I agree, that was a first flush off hormones for Ron there. But compared with Hermione?s crush on Lockhart a year earlier or Ron?s with Fleur a year later, it is still a mild case. :-) > > The other teachers where no match for Lockhart and the boys where > > out of bounds yet. > > She COULD have had a crush on one of the older boys. Percy, Oliver, > surely there are other Gryffindor boys in their year, or: how about > Cedric? She could have. But the boys a year or two ahead were not far enough developed themselves - and the older ones were a bit *too* old. I know, there is an age differnce between Hermione and Krum. But the older you get, the less important the age difference becomes. And by putting a teacher as the object of Hermione?s crush makes it clear that nothing will come from it - I don?t think it is the kind of book that will deal with the problems of a teacher-student relationship. I have met know one who speculates that Hermione will get together with Lockhart, while a lot of people speculate about Hermione, Ron, Cho and Harry in various combinations. Ethanol From bbennett at joymail.com Fri Oct 12 13:36:50 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:36:50 -0000 Subject: First Crush - Ron/Fleur In-Reply-To: <9q6qjf+4c7d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6rli+uit4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27549 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., b.jebenstreit at b... wrote: > Yes, I agree, that was a first flush off hormones for Ron there. But > compared with Hermione?s crush on Lockhart a year earlier or Ron?s > with Fleur a year later, it is still a mild case. :-) I don't think Ron has crush on Fleur; I see that more as a case of (to quote Ron) animal magnetism. He thinks she's pretty (everyone does), but his attraction seems much more veela-inspired than crush- like (he admits he'd pretty must lost control when he invited her to the ball, and his reaction at seeing her at the ball was embarrassment - not jealously that she was with someone else). I think Fleur is veela-attraction, and I agree that Rosmert was a "flush of hormones" - but I think Hermione is his first actual crush (jealously, won't admit to an attraction, etc). B From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Oct 12 13:39:36 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:39:36 -0500 Subject: A Wobbly, Half-Hearted Defense of GoF (WAS CoS, References: <9q6phq+pk95@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BC6F298.8030909@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27550 Hi -- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > Tabouli wrote: > > I have to wonder whether JKR's editors were getting too awestruck to > wield the machete. If she'd given *me* the manuscript (O well, one > can dream), I would have have been much more brutal with the axe and > the pruning shears (and then fled before a team of HP4GU members took > up their own axes and pruning shears to hunt me down). I'm sure at > least 100 pages could have bitten the cutting room floor without > crucial loss to the plot. > > > Cindy: > I can't decide whether to lead the charge to defend GoF or just pile > on. I really did like the book when I finished it, and it did what I > like a book to do by the end -- make me say "Wow!" I wasn't bored, > and I never considered abandoning the book. I bought the graveyard > scene hook, line and sinker, I was totally blindsided about > Crouch/Moody, and I like the unhappy ending. I thought the writing > was more substantial (I didn't get the feeling that parts of > paragraphs were missing as in CoS), and the one-liners were some of > JKR's best. I had the same reactions to GoF -- "Wow" when I finished it. I was ensnared from the first word to the last -- read it non-stop for 12+ hours IIRC. At one point my husband tiptoed in & whispered, "Are you going to take a shower today?" :--) > > On the other hand, Tabouli makes great points. I too feel confident > that I could trim 100+ pages out of GOF without breaking a sweat, > although I am not sure I could flee HP4GU members quickly enough to > avoid being hacked to bits. Most of the cuts would come out of "The > Portkey", "Bagman and Crouch," "The Quiddich World Cup," "Dark Mark" > and "Mayhem at the Ministry", which total almost 100 pages right > there. That's an awful lot of background before the story really > gets moving. "The Portkey" is about 10 pages of waking up, having > breakfast, walking up a hill, and touching a boot. Those chapters > would get collapsed into perhaps two chapters. (I wonder if the > meandering nature of these 5 chapters has something to do with the > plot glitch JKR discovered as she was writing GoF.) Nary a page > of "The House Elf Liberation Front" sub-plot would survive -- 22 > pages. That would leave enough room to keep "The Unexpected Task" > and the "Yule Ball", because those chapters are priceless, even > though they don't advance the plot much. But the "Yule Ball" is 30 > pages, which is a bit windy considering it is mostly a diversion. Here's the real reason I responded to this message. I can't believe I'm going to lead any sort of defense of the editors since I do think they deserve some criticism for the Priori Incantatum goof-up and for not trying to clean up some of the inconsistencies. I mean ... we know JKR can't do maths, but are all her editors similarly afflicted? There are also numerous instances of just plain inconsistencies detailed in the Mysteries & Inconsistencies FAQ (http:///www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/mysteries.html). The student numbers is but one large example of an area where her editors could (should!) have been helpful. BUT ... we the readers don't have any idea what will be important background for later books; I imagine her editors, however, *are* privy to enough information to know what should be kept in & what could be cut or trimmed. I think it's very possible that if nothing else, her editors defer to her final judgment when considering taking things *out* (they may not know *why* those particulars should be left in but are probably told that it will be important later on). I *liked* the House Elf Liberation Front, so I wouldn't want it cut in any case. But, I rather suspect that the House Elf subplot & others that are routinely criticized as unnecessary may, in fact, be very necessary for plots or subplots of the later books. The Yule Ball was also (*I* think) more than a diversion ... then again, you probably have to at least partially subscribe to the FITD theories & such to believe it could be more than just a diversion with no bearing on any later thoughts. :--) I do agree that some of the chapters beginning with the Portkey until the Goblet of Fire spits out Harry's name do seem a bit bloated. But, I don't think I'd cut 100 pages. And, I'm willing to bet that there *is* a good reason for all that information. We'll have to wait & see I guess! Penny (who isn't the least bit alarmed that OoP might be longer than GoF -- if true, HURRAH!!!) From blaise_writer at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 13:44:02 2001 From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:44:02 -0000 Subject: Life-debt In-Reply-To: <9q6is3+usf0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6s32+1vr4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27551 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote: > And - is life-debt automatical among wizards, regardless of whether > the wizards (witches) know of it? Is sense of honor/gratitude of any > kind required? Would Harry be able to - sign a legal form in stead of > Pettigrew because of that or something? > > Anyone have any ideas how life-debt effects? Pettigrew didn't have > trouble in cutting Harry's blood to raise Voldemort... I wouldn't have thought there were any rules for a life-debt. That doesn't seem (IMO) to be how Jo's universe works. Interactions between people seem to be human rather than magical (the centaurs may be an exception to this but they're not human). So I think that the life-debt is not some sort of arcane ritual whereby the person who bears the debt is bound in some magical manner. Rather, I think that it is an emotional bond, like Snape's to James Potter and later Harry. Therefore, I think that Pettigrew owing his life to Harry will matter because it will touch some part of Pettigrew, or it will prick his conscience and force him to behave in a way he doesn't want to. He will feel that he has to do something for Harry, or he will find himself more sympathetic to Harry than he might have otherwise been. I think this would make for a better, more interesting and moral story than one in which Pettigrew had to obey certain rules because he owes his life to Harry. Opinions from Blaise. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 13:46:52 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:46:52 -0000 Subject: Prefect predictions Message-ID: <9q6s8c+k25f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27552 Some 60 listies have responded to the prefect polls (still open 'til OoP comes out, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls) and I have a few questions. The #1 choice for Gryffindor prefect (male) is currently Dean. Setting aside the question of why not Ron, Harry, or Neville, I'm wondering why Dean over Seamus, since the two fill pretty much the same role in my mind and I would have thought that if you narrow the choice down to these two, it's a toss-up and would come out about 50/50. Dean voters, why Dean and not Seamus? Along the same lines, we've met 2 Hufflepuff boys and know about the same amount about both of them. So why is Justin the overwhelming choice for prefect, over Ernie? I voted for JFF myself, but why? The obvious debate, of course, is whether Harry should get it, wants it, and/or will be an interesting choice from the dramatic POV. Some other observations: -The most lopsided vote is for Hermione (94.2% in the Gryffindor girl poll). Draco's is almost as high, though a few people are holding out for "none of the above" for the Slytherin boy. I'd love to know who, if anyone, the none-of-the-above voters have in mind. I'd also love to hear from Lavender and Parvati partisans about why they think Hermione won't get the nod. -The too-close-to-call race is Hannah Abbott vs. Susan Bones for the coveted role of female Hufflepuff prefect. I wouldn't be surprised if we never even learn the answer, but it's fun to speculate. -Padma Patil is running away with the Ravenclaw prize. What's that all about? Is it just that she's the only Ravenclaw girl of the year who's had any lines? (I'm a Nott voter, myself. You gotta go for one long shot, and we badly need a DE child who's (a) a girl and (b) not in Slytherin.) Amy Z who doesn't think Harry wants the job: --------------------------------------------- His immediate reaction was that it would be worth becoming a prefect just to be able to use this bathroom. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 12 13:55:55 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:55:55 -0000 Subject: A Wobbly, Half-Hearted Defense of GoF (WAS CoS, In-Reply-To: <3BC6F298.8030909@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9q6spb+ncb6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27553 Penny wrote: > Here's the real reason I responded to this message. I can't believe I'm > going to lead any sort of defense of the editors since I do think they > deserve some criticism for the Priori Incantatum goof-up and for not > trying to clean up some of the inconsistencies. > BUT ... we the readers don't have any idea what will be important > background for later books; I imagine her editors, however, *are* privy > to enough information to know what should be kept in & what could be cut > or trimmed. I think it's very possible that if nothing else, her > editors defer to her final judgment when considering taking things *out* > (they may not know *why* those particulars should be left in but are > probably told that it will be important later on). > > I *liked* the House Elf Liberation Front, so I wouldn't want it cut in > any case. But, I rather suspect that the House Elf subplot & others > that are routinely criticized as unnecessary may, in fact, be very > necessary for plots or subplots of the later books. The Yule Ball was > also (*I* think) more than a diversion ... then again, you probably have > to at least partially subscribe to the FITD theories & such to believe > it could be more than just a diversion with no bearing on any later > thoughts. :--) > > I do agree that some of the chapters beginning with the Portkey until > the Goblet of Fire spits out Harry's name do seem a bit bloated. But, I > don't think I'd cut 100 pages. And, I'm willing to bet that there *is* > a good reason for all that information. We'll have to wait & see I guess! > Thanks for the assist, Penny. I was also engrossed in GoF, to the point of giving the children breakfast cereal for dinner because I got to the graveyard scene when I should have started dinner, so what else could I do? :) You make a good point about us (read: me) having no real idea about what is important in future books. What I think has changed over the series, however, is that JKR seems to include entire chapters that, at best, are background or clues for future chapters. For instance, PS/SS (and CoS too?) include a few references to Scabbers. There might have been a passing reference to his long lifespan and missing toe. Then, in PoA, those reference turn out to be critical foreshadowing for the Big Plot Twist. Very, very cool. Now, JKR could have handled this Scabbers foreshadowing differently. She could have given us a whole big chapter of the life and times of Scabbers the rat, complete with flashbacks of Percy turning over his beloved rat to Ron as they muse about how curious it is that he is living so long. Ugh. I got the sense that in the early chapters of GoF (and House Elf sub-plot), JKR might very well be setting something up. I just think it's getting to be a bit much. But I'd say the odds that you are correct that these things will prove important in future books are very high indeed, and I'll have to eat my words. Cindy (wondering what FITD means) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 12 14:08:06 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:08:06 -0000 Subject: Prefect predictions In-Reply-To: <9q6s8c+k25f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q6tg6+882c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27554 Amy wrote: > Some 60 listies have responded to the prefect polls (still open 'til > OoP comes out, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls) and > I have a few questions. > > The #1 choice for Gryffindor prefect (male) is currently Dean. > Setting aside the question of why not Ron, Harry, or Neville, I'm > wondering why Dean over Seamus, since the two fill pretty much the > same role in my mind and I would have thought that if you narrow the > choice down to these two, it's a toss-up and would come out about > 50/50. Dean voters, why Dean and not Seamus? Oooh, nice post, Amy. I had forgotten about the polls. As a Dean voter, he gets the nod from me for two reasons. First, he has almost nothing to do, and could use a role. So could Seamus, so it is a true toss-up. So why Dean? Dean is one of only two Black characters, and neither he nor Angelina is pivotal. I think he'll get the prefect position just to boost diversity, not for any plot reasons. > > -The most lopsided vote is for Hermione (94.2% in the Gryffindor girl > poll). Draco's is almost as high, though a few people are holding out > for "none of the above" for the Slytherin boy. I'd love to know who, > if anyone, the none-of-the-above voters have in mind. I'd also love > to hear from Lavender and Parvati partisans about why they think > Hermione won't get the nod. > I was one of the few people not to give the prefect position to Hermione. That would be way too predictable, as the poll results indicate. So then you're left with Pavarti or Lavender. I went with Lavender, because I think having her be a prefect gives you more possibilities for conflict. She seems to be a bit of a goody-two- shoes (except when Moody scolded her in class once). That contrasts nicely with our trio of rule-breakers, and makes her a bit Percy- esque. I picked Lavender over Pavarti because Pavarti already got some screen time by going with Harry to the Yule Ball. As for Draco, his choice is also rather obvious, but the conflict possibilities are so awesome that they more than compensate. This is particularly so if you believe (as I do) that Dumbledore is about to get sacked and Draco's Dad is about to become Headmaster. > -The too-close-to-call race is Hannah Abbott vs. Susan Bones for the > coveted role of female Hufflepuff prefect. I wouldn't be surprised if > we never even learn the answer, but it's fun to speculate. > I need to get over there and vote for Susan Bones (which I forgot to do). Her parents were both killed by DEs, so that background suggests something nifty is coming with her. Prefect would be a nice launching pad. Cindy From lotusmoondragon at aol.com Fri Oct 12 14:29:49 2001 From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:29:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Warlocks Message-ID: <18.13b0f7b4.28f8585d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27555 In a message dated 10/12/2001 8:34:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aiz24 at hotmail.com writes: > Just as there are multiple English words for male nonmagical humans > (men, guys, males), I figured "warlock" is a synonym for "wizard." Warlock usually has darker connotations (IRL, not in the books) than Wizard. For example, you'd call Merlin a Wizard, but calling him a Warlock wouldn't seem right, as Merlin is always seen as good. But if you have an "evil" Wizard in a book, he's usually referred to as a Warlock. I'm not sure about JKR's use of the words. Perhaps she means them to be the same thing. Lotus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 14:48:31 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:48:31 -0000 Subject: Time-turner - PoA plot - Calendar - Lockhart Message-ID: <9q6vrv+23ja@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27556 Jon wrote: > its introduced out of the blue (and no, > Hermione's schedule doesn't count) Why doesn't it? I think JKR does a great job of setting up the time-turner by making it a part of a minor plotline through the book. I agree that a problem with the t-t is that Harry would think about the possibilities of saving, or at least seeing, his parents. No one would let him do it, but he'd want to, and we don't see him mull it over either in PoA or GoF. The focal point question in PoA is interesting. In a way, it's true that there is no single central plot, because one candidate (Quidditch) lacks gravitas and another (Sirius v. Harry) proves to be an illusion. But in terms of what plotline drives the book, I would say it's the latter. We "know" from very early on that Sirius Black is trying to kill Harry, and we know there will be a confrontation at the end--and there is. The only reason that we look back and say "that wasn't the main storyline" is that there's a twist. And that's why the story doesn't wrap up in the Shrieking Shack, even though that scene *seems* like it's going to be the climax. Beyond that, there is another focal point: the whole backstory of MWPP (and S). One of the many things I love about the book is that while Harry is going about his life--lighter things like wanting to go to Hogsmeade and playing Quidditch, heavier things like hearing his parents and coping with Dementors--there is another drama mostly invisible to him (and to us, until the second reading): that of Lupin, Black, Snape, and, if you think about it, Pettigrew. We think the story is about Black trying to kill Harry, so the plot seems focused on that; but that's not what the story is about. It's about Sirius in a whole different way, and it's as much about Pettigrew, and right on out of the pages of this volume to Voldemort. The more I think about the plotting of PoA, the more impressive it seems. JKR has all these threads going, and they're interwoven in amazing ways: -the most-important-to-Harry thread (Quidditch) -the emotional thread (Dementors/J&L). It is interwoven with Quidditch, without which Harry wouldn't keep hearing his parents' voices. -the drives-the-plot thread (Sirius trying to kill Harry), interwoven with the seemingly trivial thread of Harry trying to get into the village (key because of the Sirius plot, and because it introduces the Map) -the true Sirius story (evidence throughout that Sirius is trying to save Harry--also, things like the Firebolt, brilliantly tied to the Quidditch thread but also establishing Sirius's character and the Sirius-Harry relationship, once we learn the truth) -the false and true Crookshanks/Scabbers/Pettigrew storylines -Hermione's schedule (and accompanying crabbiness), which is a minor and humorous storyline but becomes central to the plot by the end -the Buckbeak thread, which also seems to be mostly about Hagrid and Draco but becomes central by the end -the character of Trelawney and Divination--all the set-up about whether to take Divination seriously -the character of Lupin--which is probably a lot of setting-up for stories yet to be told in OoP and (knock wood) beyond. -the character of Snape, who hits a low in this book but whose backstory is also set up for the revelations of GoF, especially poignantly if he turns out post-GoF to have been the spy who tipped off J&L. Everything balances. The storylines that seem trivial either turn out to be central (Crookshanks v. Scabbers) or serve to bring in storylines that are essential (Quidditch, e.g., brings in Sirius-as-godfather, and the Dementors/J&L issue). The real character dramas are largely below the surface (interactions among the MWPP generation). It's amazing. Steve wrote: > As for the number of days, we know that they start on 1 September and > end in the third week of Juune (or pretty close to that...depends on > the book, really). So how many days would that be? Are they counting > weekends and holidays in that number? How many days do they take at > Christmas and Easter? I'd have to really dig into a calendar to see > if this number works, and I don't have time to do it. In a non-leap year, September 1-May 31 is 273 days. Don't reach for a straitjacket, it only took a minute to add it up on the calculator! So they're saying Hogwarts ends the first week of June. We know from canon that the end of the school year in fact varies wildly--they don't get home 'til almost July in GoF. If you take out holidays, GoF might work (a couple of weeks at Christmas, one at Easter?), but it ends as much as two weeks later as the other books. Lockhart: Hagrid is not the most reliable source, but because of the emphasis ("He was the *on'y* man for the job . . . And I mean the *on'y* one," CoS 7), I lean toward the idea that Dumbledore was scraping the bottom of the barrel with GL and knew it. Sometimes you just have to find a warm body. Lupin, I'm guessing, either refused point-blank or was unavailable for other reasons. The Wolfsbane Potion might not even have been developed yet. My problem with Lockhart-the-character isn't his incompetence. I just don't think anyone in real life would be that obvious: e.g. his whole speech to Harry about how "all that business with He Who Must Not Be Named" is "not quite as good as winning *Witch Weekly*'s Most-Charming-Smile Award five times in a row," and his quiz about his favorite color, etc. . . to me, it's over the top. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------- . . . They made their way into the entrance hall, which was completely devoid of mad axe-men. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban --------------------------------------------------- From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 15:41:48 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:41:48 -0000 Subject: In Defense of PoA and GoF Message-ID: <9q72vs+adb4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27557 Let's face it, the best reason of all to read PoA is the last Paragraph. It is, by far, the best closing of any of the books. I would have loved to seen the look on Uncle Vernon's face, wouldn't you? As for GoF needing cutting, I sincerely don't think so. Let's not forget that one of the strengths of Rowling's writing is her sense of pace. Her high energy moments are always counterbalanced with low energy moments. My favorite example is from SS. After dealing with Quirrel, we have Dumbledore joking about a toilet seat. There is a tremendous amount of high energy stuff going on in GoF. There is a tremendous amount of setup for future novels in there. If you cut out the "unimportant" stuff, you run a very real risk of losing that delicate balance she tries so hard to achieve. In the final analysis, it comes down to a gut feeling. I used to be a Tom Clancy fan. I can't stand to read him anymore. Why? Because his later novels just got bigger and bigger and bigger without adding anything to the core story. They simply got overweight. I could skip 20 pages at a time and not miss anything. When I finish GoF, I get the feeling of eating a well-balanced meal. I honestly can't think of anything I would cut out. It all fits. It all is balanced. It flows. Cutting just for the sake of cutting so we can fit it inside of an artifical boundary is wrong, IMO. When I first read "Lord of the Rings" as a teenager, I thought it was over long. There were entire sections I would of sliced out. Now when I read it 30 years later, I find many of those "poor" sections have become some of my favorite parts. JKR has stated several times that HP4 was always envisioned as being a large book. She never realized how big until she actually wrote it. She also predicts HP7 to be huge. All the rumors of HP5 being as big or bigger are just that, rumors. Until the book is coming close to publishing, I don't think we really need to worry about OoP's size. Marcus From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 16:03:20 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape the Brave In-Reply-To: <9q6kii+43ja@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011012160320.62575.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27558 --- vheggie at yahoo.com wrote: > In defence of Snape: > I'll lay my cards on the table; I was a big, big Snape fan before > I discovered that the delectable Mr Rickman was to play himnow > hairwashing in the Prefects' Bathroom is a recurring theme in many of my daydreams Like I said before, does Mr. Rickman have the *faintest* idea of what he's letting himself in for? Does he even know there are adult female Potter Fans who fantasize about Snape? :) > Having said that I think Snape is a classic > example of the truism > that "Not all good people must be Nice people". From the very first book I've suspected that this was exactly the point JKR was trying to make with the character of Snape. Even nasty and mean people may align themselves on the side of light when forced to choose > He appears to treat everyone equally badly, with the possible > exception of the > Slytherins, although, of course, we don't see how he acts with > them alone, only through Harry's POV, and of course, Harry is biased. It has also been suggested that his very obvious favoritism towards Malfoy is a matter of policy, staying in good with his former DE colleagues, rather than a matter of personal liking. However I do think he is biased towards Slytherins in a large part because he sees the rest of the school as being against them, (and is not entirely wrong in this perception). > He has an unpopular teaching style, but it certainly seems to work So did Professor Kingsfield on the 'Paperchase', (old US TV show about law students). I bet Snape's pupils really know their potions by the time he's through with them - even if they also hate his guts. > none of the trio fail potions, and Hermione, at > least, is capable of > making very advanced brews (e.g. Polyjuice Potion). Harry believes only Dumbledore's intervention kept Snape from failing him but I think he's wrong. Severus has his own kind of integrity. Just as he would never physically harm a student I don't believe he would fail one who'd earned a pass - even if he did give them the lowest grade he could manage. > Most importantly, Snape can clearly > admit to being > wrong, at least about the `big things' he defected from Voldemort, > at the risk of his own life, when he realised that this was not the > way he wanted to see things done. This is a very big thing. He not only admitted he had been wrong but set out to repair the damage done no matter what the personal cost - that streak of integrity again. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Oct 12 16:08:33 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:08:33 -0000 Subject: PoA plot In-Reply-To: <9q6vrv+23ja@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q74i1+55sp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27559 Amy Z wrote: (a lot of good points about POA) There is one other plus point for me about POA compared to the others, which is that Ron and Hermione are involved in the climax as well as Harry - in the others Harry faces Voldemort alone. Come to think of it, that's another thing - the others are a showdown with a single enemy, two of them leading to a happy resolution and the other a holding position. IRL, problems are rarely solved by a showdown with an evil force (take note, world leaders), but are much more complicated, as are the revelations of the secrets behind puzzling events. It's difficult to make comparisons, particularly with the first item in a series - we never get the pleasure of novelty twice - so I never did the poll past my favourite, but I think COS holds up to rereading very well. When I read GOF to my younger kids I almost lost them at the World Cup-related events through boredom - the alleged darkness of the book was never a problem. I think if JKR had had more time it would have been shorter. David It takes me two days to prepare a five minute speech, an hour to prepare a ten minute one, and, if I have to speak for an hour, I am ready now - William Ewart Gladstone, paraphrased From joym999 at aol.com Fri Oct 12 16:14:04 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:14:04 -0000 Subject: What's a warlock? In-Reply-To: <9q6q7h+9h5l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q74sc+g1i0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27560 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I formed the mental image that warlock isn't an > honorific, nor is it the same as wizard. I figure it either > means "man", whereas witch means "woman" and wizard means "person." > Or warlock is a polite way of saying "wizard geezer." > > But then it doesn't make sense that Dumbledore would refer to himself > as a "geezer" on his business card. So I guess it must mean "older > and accomplished and senior wizard before whom one ought to bow and > scrape." > We've had many discussions on the meaning of the word "warlock," and the consensus seems to be that it refers to an older, respected wizard (as Cynthia suggests) or a wizard (possibly younger, but likely older) with some sort of elected or appointed office (equivalent to MP, or judge) that commands respect. I think that the word warlock could probably be described as equivalent to the muggle word "gentleman," not so much in its traditional use as descriptive of a man from the upper classes, but more as a polite, respectful descriptor as it is used today. Or possibly, it is the equivalent of the title "Don" which is given to certain (usually older) men in Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian- speaking countries and regions. (Well, maybe not so much like the way it is used in certain Italian-speaking regions -- I don't think Dumbledore is much like Don Corleone. Now, Lucious Malfoy, OTOH...) --Do?a Joywitch, R.E.A.L.L.O.O.N. and L.O.O.N. founder, S.U.A.V.E. founder and possibly only member, HP4GU Contestmeister and Quizziwig, HP4GU Curmudgeon-in-Chief and V.O.P. who will point out that if you don't understand half the initials after my name that that's the point -- they look impressive even though they probably stand for something meaningless From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 16:21:08 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape the Unsung Hero; Gryffindor In-Reply-To: <9q6cuv+r959@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011012162108.2469.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27561 --- dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote: > I just want to point out that not all of us assume that Snape has > gone back to spy on Voldemort. He could, for > example, be sent out to > try to get the vampire community to join Dumbledore, or to Azkaban to > find out if the Dementors have joined Voldemort (my own favourite). However I think we can all agree it must be something that is both extremely dangerous and vital to the cause. Dumbledore: "Severus you know what I must ask you to do....if you are ready....if you are prepared." Snape: "I am." He's paler than usual and his eyes glitter strangely. Dumbledore watches him leave with a trace of apprehension showing on his face. It is clear wherever Snape is going it's quite possible he won't return and they both know it. > But I agree that he is very brave, and like the > point someone made > about him being upset when Ginny was kidnapped. I remember that scene. Snape's hand tightens on the back of a chair as he asks "Who is it?" > who does *not* want Harry to be the physical 'heir of Gryffindor' I believe Harry is the heir of Godric Gryffindor in a spiritual sense, a matter of character rather than blood descent. > (But, it would be nice if Dumbledore > turned out to be the > heir of G, and in Book 7 he hands over the baton to common-born > Harry, saying, 'Blood and descent can only take us so far. It is our > choices that matter..') That would be a good scene :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 16:22:44 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Warlocks In-Reply-To: <18.13b0f7b4.28f8585d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011012162244.88406.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27562 I was wondering if 'Warlock' might not be the title for a non-academic magical practicioner. That is one who hasn't attended Hogwarts but gone through some kind of apprenticeship. Possibly 'Warlocks' are the magical craftsmen of the Wizarding world. Dumbeldore's title: Chief Warlock, and the mention of a convention suggests a sort of Guild doesn't it? They do seem to be a rough and ready crowd don't they. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From prima_donna_23 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 12 16:38:59 2001 From: prima_donna_23 at yahoo.co.uk (prima_donna_23 at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:38:59 -0000 Subject: Fletcher, Lockhart and Snape In-Reply-To: <3BC6E248.165BC546@erols.com> Message-ID: <9q76b3+g24k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27563 Sounds like the name of a law firm to me! Hi, I'm new here & my name's Kim. Anyway with that out of the way, I'll get back on topic Fletcher - Does anyone actually know what Mundungus means? I'm sure I read the meaning somewhere in the past few days, but I really can't remember what it was or where I read it (although I'm pretty sure it wasn't on a HP website) Lockhart - IMHO Dumbledore didn't know that Lockhart was a fraud when he hired him, but started getting suspicious when he noticed how completely incompetent Lockhart was at anything DADA related. If Quirrell and 'Moody' (ie Crouch in disguise) could fool him, then why not Lockhart Snape - I definitely think that Snape has rejoined the DEs, even if it is an obvious theory. I also think that both he and Dumbledore have discussed the fact that it is very likely that Voldemort will just kill him instead of accepting him as a DE again and the possibility that Voldemort knows that Snape was a double agent. After all, Dumbledore told the whole court room, including Karkaroff that Snape had turned spy for Dumbledore. *** Kim *** From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 16:41:03 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:41:03 -0000 Subject: Snape In-Reply-To: <20011012160320.62575.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q76ev+ihj1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27564 Rowena wrote: > Harry believes only Dumbledore's intervention kept > Snape from failing him but I think he's wrong. Severus > has his own kind of integrity. Just as he would never > physically harm a student I don't believe he would > fail one who'd earned a pass - even if he did give > them the lowest grade he could manage. It is really Dumbledore's integrity being called into question here. During the exam, Snape "scribbled something that looked suspiciously like a zero" and there's nothing in the description of the exam to indicate that Harry deserved higher (PA 16). If Dumbledore intervened, it may well have been to get Snape to pass Harry even though his grade didn't merit it. (An unfounded American college legend says that if your roommate dies, you automatically get straight A's for that semester. What do you get if during the year in question, the insane right-hand man of the Evil Overlord tried to kill you while soul-sucking creatures forced you to relive your parents' murder?) OTOH, Harry isn't always realistic in assessing this kind of thing--cf his panic attack at the beginning of the book when he thinks he's going to be at least expelled and probably sent to Azkaban for nothing more than a magically-enhanced temper tantrum--so maybe he was never really in any danger of failing. Whew. Poor Albus has already been accused of being vain this week; I hate to add corrupt. Amy Z prolific today because she has an enormous pile of work she actually should be doing ---------------------------------------------- Snape made them all nervous, breathing down their necks while they tried to remember how to make a Forgetfulness potion. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone ---------------------------------------------- From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 16:46:20 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's vanity In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011012000532.009ecb40@actcom.co.il> Message-ID: <20011012164620.71466.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27565 --- Allyse wrote: > At 08:31 PM 11/10/01 +0000, Catherine wrote in > response to Rowena: > > >What concerns me, though, is that we have > >heard about this "vanity" of Dumbledore's through > an article, quoting > >a costume designer, quoting JKR - so it is, at > best, third hand and > >therefore not canon. > > But we do have canon evidence of Dumbledore's > vanity. The way he cheerfully > tells Harry that his idea re the PS in the MoE was > brilliant, even for him, always sets my teeth on edge. It makes me smile. Perhaps because I've always pictured Dumbledore saying it lightly and with a twinkle in his eye. He's quite genuinely proud of that little brainwave but he's also laughing at himself for that pride. > There may be more of Lockhart in Dumbledore > than we all care to admit. :) The major difference is Dumbley really is as good as he claims to be. His vanity is grounded in reality rather than an illusion. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From joym999 at aol.com Fri Oct 12 17:03:16 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:03:16 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #15 Results Message-ID: <9q77ok+69ts@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27566 I have recent (only...sob!) 5 entries to the Minister of Magic Electoral Campaign Contest, but as usual they are all terrific. Brandon, Cindy and Lucy have come up with amusing and characteristic slogans for some of our favorite HP people. And, David Frankis and Eric Oppen have each done a fantastic job and undoubtedly have new careers ahead of them. ********************************************************* Voldemort's campaign slogan: Vote for me, or ELSE! Brandon (bak42 at netzero.net) ********************************************************* If Crouch Jr. ran for office, his campaign slogan could be "All things to all people." Cindy (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) ********************************************************* Vote for Mad-Eye Moody - when the Dark Lord is threatening to return, I can promise you CONSTANT VIGILANCE!! Lucy Austin (lucy at luphen.co.uk) ********************************************************* Hallowe'en, 1996 Dear Wizarding Elector, I am writing to request your support at a crucial time in the history of our community, a small and beleaguered one, yet vital and uniquely chosen by Destiny. The coming election to the post of Minister of Magic may seem to you to be a mundane, even routine affair, in which the re-election of Mr Fudge should be a mere formality. A year or two ago, I would have agreed. Cornelius Fudge has, for most of his career, provided competent and unswervingly loyal service to the wider Wizarding community, and he has always had my unstinting support. However, I believe that the situation has now changed, with the current rumours abroad that the Enemy of our people, for fifteen years merely a name to frighten children, has returned. I for one do not believe there is a scrap of truth in these rumours, but rather that they have been given credence by misguided idealists. But the very fact that these rumours are spreading shows the need for a firmer hand on the tiller in these troubling times. Not only has the current administration at the Ministry of Magic allowed these rumours to flourish, its inability to recapture the notorious Sirius Black, and its botched attempts - so effectively exposed by the public spirited efforts of Rita Skeeter and The Daily Prophet - to cover up the lax state of affairs at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, all point to a deeper malaise. I need hardly remind you of its lamentable record in managing recent sporting events. Why do I consider these matters to be so grave? In response, I merely say, look about you. The Wizarding Community feels itself ever more outnumbered by the teeming Muggle populace. While many can count individual Muggles among their friends and admirers, history teaches only too well the danger they collectively present to us. I believe concerns in the Ministry and elsewhere about scrupulous fairness to Muggles, while motivated by the highest principles, have obscured our real danger. Although it is with deep reluctance that I have allowed my name to go forward, and I bear Mr Fudge no personal ill-will, I believe that the time has come for a new administration, which can guide the whole Wizarding community firmly and safely through the troubled waters that lie ahead. I urge you to reflect carefully before the ballot box, and consider the consequences that may befall a hastily or complacently cast vote. With best wishes Your friend Lucius Malfoy David Frankis (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) ********************************************************* Vote for Percy Weasley---The One Who Obeys _All_ The Rules! Vote for Cornelius Fudge---He Kept Us Safe From Death Eaters! Vote for Lucius Malfoy---Or Else! Vote for Goyle---A Big Job Needs A Big Man! Vote for Severus Snape---Because He's Good At Dealing With Mixups! Vote for Rubeus Hagrid---He Deals With Monsters, He Can Handle Bureaucrats! Vote for Ginny Weasley---Because She's SO Cute! Vote for Harry Potter---The Boy Who Lived Is The Man We Need! Vote for McNair---He'll Cut Out The Nonsense! Vote for Peter Pettigrew---He Knows How To Deal With The Dark Lord! Eric Oppen (oppen at cnsinternet.com) ********************************************************* From joym999 at aol.com Fri Oct 12 17:12:38 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:12:38 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #16 Message-ID: <9q78a6+ie0f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27567 Because I thrive on rejection, this week's contest is yet another one of those "creative" contests that hardly anyone likes. Here we go: Among Dumbledore's accomplishments, according to his Chocolate Frogs card, is that he discovered the Twelve Uses of Dragon's Blood. According to an interview with whatshisname who wrote the movie screenplay, one of those 12 uses is Oven Cleaner. Some of the other 12 are, undoubtedly, ingredients for various spells. What do you think? Come up with one, two, three, or all twelve uses of dragon's blood, along with an explanation, if you like. (Feel free to ignore the oven cleaner possibility since it is not canon.) I will, as usual, start things off with a smartass (yet timely) suggestion: One of the 12 uses of dragon's blood is an antidote to anthrax poisoning. (Because wizards have been dealing with Voldy for so long, they are a lot better prepared than us muggles at dealing with terrorism.) --Joywitch From joym999 at aol.com Fri Oct 12 17:32:52 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:32:52 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #16 In-Reply-To: <9q78a6+ie0f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q79g4+o74j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27568 Yikes! I forgot the usual reminders to email your contest entries directly to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com, or to the above address. Don't post contest entries to the list! (And save your entry until you get a response from me that I've received it.) Thanks. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" wrote: > Because I thrive on rejection, this week's contest is yet another one > of those "creative" contests that hardly anyone likes. Here we go: > > Among Dumbledore's accomplishments, according to his Chocolate Frogs > card, is that he discovered the Twelve Uses of Dragon's Blood. > According to an interview with whatshisname who wrote the movie > screenplay, one of those 12 uses is Oven Cleaner. Some of the other > 12 are, undoubtedly, ingredients for various spells. What do you > think? Come up with one, two, three, or all twelve uses of dragon's > blood, along with an explanation, if you like. (Feel free to ignore > the oven cleaner possibility since it is not canon.) I will, as > usual, start things off with a smartass (yet timely) suggestion: > > One of the 12 uses of dragon's blood is an antidote to anthrax > poisoning. (Because wizards have been dealing with Voldy for so > long, they are a lot better prepared than us muggles at dealing with > terrorism.) > > --Joywitch From btk6y at virginia.edu Fri Oct 12 18:08:23 2001 From: btk6y at virginia.edu (btk6y at virginia.edu) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:08:23 -0000 Subject: tell me why... (about the Basilisk) Message-ID: <9q7bin+d6pd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27569 Hey all- don't know if this has been discussed, but I was rereading CoS and it occurred to me that Harry might have gone through a lot of trauma unnecessarily at the end of the book. The basilisk is only supposed to be able to be controlled by the Heir of Slytherin, right? And how does the Heir of Slytherin control it? By speaking Parseltongue. So I was thinking that Harry could have just said, "hey snake, don't kill me, go back into the statue". I know, you might say that the basilisk is not controlled by Parseltongue per say but only by someone who is the Heir of Slytherin by blood, but that just does not make much sense to me because how is the snake supposed to know, really, what the DNA of the person is? I personally think that Parseltongue is the key to controlling the basilisk and Harry should have tried to talk to it (of course, easy for me to say now). Anyway, thoughts are welcome and hopefully this hasn't already been discussed to death- thanks. From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 20:20:04 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:20:04 -0000 Subject: A Wobbly, Half-Hearted Defense of GoF (WAS CoS, In-Reply-To: <9q6spb+ncb6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q7j9k+jf9i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27570 > > Cindy (wondering what FITD means) *snipped from HPfGU FAQ under Romance* "Several members believe that the later books in the series may contain a romantic triangle of sorts, dubbed the "Farmer in the Dell" ("FITD") theory. These members believe that: 1. Ron has romantic interest in Hermione; 2. Hermione has romantic interest in Harry; and 3. Harry has (or will have) romantic interest in someone outside the Trio or in no one." -Megan (who personally subscribes to R/H) From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 20:35:56 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:35:56 -0000 Subject: PoA plot In-Reply-To: <9q6vrv+23ja@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q7k7c+nhdg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27571 Amy Z wrote PS--Harry faces Voldemort via Quirrel COS--Harry faces Voldemort via Tom Riddle GOF--Harry faces Voldemort via cauldron-of-death POA--Harry faces?? I don't think one could REALLY argue Pettigrew for this last one. Yes, Pettigrew presents an obstacle by being our "villian". That is really why POA is different--NO END DUEL. To us, it's like Harry likes to end his school year with a nice healthy battle with The Evil One. Not in POA. His agenda has changed--which is WHY POA starts up such a defense/analysis issue. Maybe this thread works better for some readers--it provides an opportunity for Harry to FINALLY not be some hero! Well, okay, retract that because Harry and Hermione DO save Sirius and Buckbeak in the end--but it's different than the other three. Little good vs. evil. No one comes out the winner. This fundamental difference it what makes it so hard to pinpoint POA as our favorite--or as having "cheap" plotlines. POA presents more of a united front against Evil without singling out a single person's accomplishments. -Megan (glad that someone was finally able to figure why the heck everyone likes POA so much!) From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 21:51:39 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 21:51:39 -0000 Subject: Fletcher In-Reply-To: <9q6kii+43ja@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q7olb+ilse@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27572 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., vheggie at y... wrote: > And finally > > Mundungus Fletcher. A fletcher, I believe makes arrows - Yes, a fletcher makes arrows. French: "flechier", from "fleche". > there's also Christian Fletcher whose name is familiar, but I can't > place it right now (a mutineer on the Bounty? A character in > Treasure Island? I'm sure he was a sailor/pirate, or something > along those lines). Fletcher Christian was one of the mutineers on the H.M.S. Bounty. Christian is the surname. > IIRC there is also a character called Fletcher in the Robin Hood > myths. Hmmm, no idea about that. > My latin dictionary offers no real leads ? does anyone have any pet > theories? For some reason I find Mr Fletcher oddly compelling . Mundungus is a smelly tobacco from the Spanish "mondongo" = "paunch, tripe, black pudding", related to "mondejo" = "stuffed mutton or pork stomach"; in turn, from the Arabic "bondoca"? "bodonca"?** which seems to have the same meaning as the other Spanish cognate, "albondiga": "Ball of chopped fish or meat, formed with bread crumbs, eggs, and spices, that is eaten fried or stewed." [**diccionarios.com has two different transliterations] ....Craig, who won't mention the other meaning of albondiga (yuck).... From nicholaswebb at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 23:53:23 2001 From: nicholaswebb at hotmail.com (nicholaswebb at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:53:23 -0000 Subject: A Wobbly, Half-Hearted Defense of GoF (WAS CoS, and in defence of Lockhart) In-Reply-To: <9q6phq+pk95@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q7vpj+dvsb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27573 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > Tabouli wrote: > > I have to wonder whether JKR's editors were getting too awestruck to > wield the machete. If she'd given *me* the manuscript (O well, one > can dream), I would have have been much more brutal with the axe and > the pruning shears (and then fled before a team of HP4GU members took > up their own axes and pruning shears to hunt me down). I'm sure at > least 100 pages could have bitten the cutting room floor without > crucial loss to the plot. > > > > I can't decide whether to lead the charge to defend GoF or just pile > on. I really did like the book when I finished it, and it did what I > like a book to do by the end -- make me say "Wow!" I wasn't bored, > and I never considered abandoning the book. I bought the graveyard > scene hook, line and sinker, I was totally blindsided about > Crouch/Moody, and I like the unhappy ending. I thought the writing > was more substantial (I didn't get the feeling that parts of > paragraphs were missing as in CoS), and the one-liners were some of > JKR's best. > > On the other hand, Tabouli makes great points. I too feel confident > that I could trim 100+ pages out of GOF without breaking a sweat, > although I am not sure I could flee HP4GU members quickly enough to > avoid being hacked to bits. Most of the cuts would come out of "The > Portkey", "Bagman and Crouch," "The Quiddich World Cup," "Dark Mark" > and "Mayhem at the Ministry", which total almost 100 pages right > there. That's an awful lot of background before the story really > gets moving. "The Portkey" is about 10 pages of waking up, having > breakfast, walking up a hill, and touching a boot. Those chapters > would get collapsed into perhaps two chapters. (I wonder if the > meandering nature of these 5 chapters has something to do with the > plot glitch JKR discovered as she was writing GoF.) Nary a page > of "The House Elf Liberation Front" sub-plot would survive -- 22 > pages. That would leave enough room to keep "The Unexpected Task" > and the "Yule Ball", because those chapters are priceless, even > though they don't advance the plot much. But the "Yule Ball" is 30 > pages, which is a bit windy considering it is mostly a diversion. > > Aside from the possibility that JKR's editors are awestruck, as > Tabouli mentions, I am starting to feel that maybe there is an > overemphasis on foreshadowing in GoF. For instance, we foreshadow > Accio with Mrs. Weasley removing the toffees from Fred and George's > pockets. But because the Summoning Charm is taught in class and then > used in the First Task, we don't need Mrs. Weasley to foreshadow its > use in the graveyard. We also repeat a lot of what happens in > the "Dark Mark" when we get to "Padfoot Returns." We learn the > Banishing Charm, but never use it. Maybe it comes up in later books? > I just had this sense that GoF didn't really get rolling until we > meet Moody and Harry's name comes out of the goblet. As a result of > these concerns that the books seem to be getting "fatter", I am a > little alarmed at the news that OoP is as long as GoF. > > I also wonder if Bagman and the gambling sub-plot could have been > eliminated entirely. If he really isn't a DE and a pivotal character > for OoP (as I think he must be), then he got an awful lot of > attention in GoF. > > Anyway, these are just my opinions on GoF, and I seem to change my > mind all the time about GoF, because it is still my second-favorite > book after PoA. For what it is worth, I don't think two people could > ever have the same exact views of the books, although I certainly > enjoy these types of discussions. I was talking to my husband, and > he thought Lockhart was among the best characters in the books, and > didn't buy the Pettigrew-as-spy idea in PoA. Go figure. > > > Cindy: > > > Sadly, Lockhart has managed to tally only a few fans and no > support group > > has even been proposed, so far as I know. > > > Tabouli: > > As one of this happy minority, it's clearly up to me to start a > support group. How about L.I.G.H.T.R.E.L.I.E.F. (Lockhart is > Genuinely Hilarious Territory: a Really Entertaining Loser, If Evil > Fellow)? > > > > You win the award for best support group acronym! My husband > will send his two sickles (assuming there's a membership fee). > > Cindy (getting discouraged that her two favorite HP books don't hold > up as well to careful analysis as she thought they would, and > pleading with other HP4GU members to bail her out) Every cloud has a silver lining- I too have been fearing that Rowling has been larding her books too much, but luckily, she seems to have sensed that as well. Two hints about book 5 cheer me mightily- first, that it will definitely be shorter than book 4, and second, that Rowling is taking an enourmous amount of time with it, because, she says, she doesn't want to be caught up in a deadline. I have no doubt that GoF would have been three times better if it hadn't been rushed. From tessadirk at aol.com Sat Oct 13 00:01:11 2001 From: tessadirk at aol.com (tessadirk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:01:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Warlocks & Sorcerers Message-ID: <3a.1c1c1583.28f8de47@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27574 Cindy wrote: > Or warlock is a polite way of saying "wizard geezer." > > But then it doesn't make sense that Dumbledore would refer to himself > as a "geezer" on his business card. It makes sense to me that Dumbledore would call himself a 'geezer', because it fits in with his sometimes odd sense of humor. Also, most older folks that I know are not ashamed to call themselves geezers and such. Amanda From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 00:05:59 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 00:05:59 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q4uls+4aa5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q80h7+fg63@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27575 *writhing* Don't forget the spoiler message...... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: > > > Now for the big question - I have told Work Friend about the exciting > > new scene thing and she casually said 'oh, I'll ring up and find out > > what that's about' - so shall I post here? Or not? Personally I'm > > not sure that I even want to know as I quite like waiting for > > surprises (no point opening all your pressies on Xmas eve, is there) > > so I may end up telling Work Friend not to tell me, but if enough > > people say that they're desperate to find out I'll try and do so... > > > > Julie (Boolean the Fox) > > Are you kidding? Of COURSE you should find out and post it! It'll > only give us something more to anaysis out the wazoo... > > -Megan From nicholaswebb at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 23:42:25 2001 From: nicholaswebb at hotmail.com (nicholaswebb at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:42:25 -0000 Subject: Warlocks In-Reply-To: <9q6ns1+fihs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q7v51+g2id@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27576 I think the term warlock is meant to convey a wild, slightly sinister sense, rather than the more cozy "wizard." The one time we hear warlocks described is in POA, when they are described as wild and from the countryside. I doubt a warlock went to Hogwarts! From s_ings at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 19:45:05 2001 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 Message-ID: <20011012194505.49050.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27577 Chapter 4 Another resounding knock and the door crashes open, revealing a wild-looking giant of a man in the doorway. Much to Uncle Vernons dismay, the giant takes away his rifle, ties it into knots and proceeds to make himself at home, chatting to Harry. The giant pulls a birthday cake out of his pocket, to which Harrys only response is Who are you? Hagrid introduces himself, starts a fire in the empty grate, and begins to pull the fixings for dinner out of the many pockets of his coat. Over sausages and tea, Hagrid discovers that the Dursleys have told Harry nothing of his background. An angered Hagrid, over Vernons loud protests, tells Harry that he is a wizard. Hagrid hands Harry the letter he has been anxious to see. It turns out to be his letter of acceptance to Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Hagrid sends an owl back to Professor Dumbledore, saying he has given the letter to Harry and that he will take Harry to purchase school supplies the following day. It comes to light that the Dursleys have known all along that Harry was a wizard and that it had been their intention to stamp it out of him. During Petunias rant about what a freak she considered Lily, she lets slip that Lily and James had been blown up, contrary to what Harry had been told about them dying in a car crash. Hagrid is outraged at this deceit and tells Harry the truth about his parents, their encounter with Voldemort, their deaths at Voldemorts hand, and how Voldemorts attempt to kill Harry backfired somehow and resulted in both Voldemorts disappearance and Harrys scar. Harry tells Hagrid that a mistake must have been made, that he doesnt think hes a wizard. Hagrid chuckles and asks if Harry has ever had anything happen, when he was angry or scared, that he cant explain. Harry recalls a number of incidents that could have been the result of magic. Vernon continues to protest that he will not allow Harry to attend Hogwarts, despite Hagrids assertions that Vernon would not be able to stop it. Vernon then makes the ultimate mistake of insulting Albus Dumbledore and Hagrid becomes enraged. With a swish of his umbrella, a flash of light, and a bang, Dudley ends up with a pigs tail poking out of his trousers. The Dursleys then shut themselves in the other room. Hagrid confesses he shouldnt have done magic, as hed been expelled from Hogwarts and that, despite his expulsion, Dumbledore has allowed him to stay on as gamekeeper. When Harry tries to ask why Hagrid had been expelled, Hagrid quickly changes the subject. He gives Harry his coat to sleep under and the two of them settle in for the night. Questions: 1. Vernon had the foresight to purchase a rifle before going to the hut. Was he expecting a wizard to show and how did he think a rifle would defend them against magic? 2. Petunia considered Lily a freak. If there had been other wizards in the family somewhere, why would Petunia consider Lilys magic such an aberration? Wouldnt she have heard of/been familiar with other wizarding members of the family? 3. Who do you suppose addresses the Hogwarts letters and how did they continue to be able to know exactly where Harry was? 4. Vernon says that Harry needs all kinds of supplies, implying that he is not willing to provide them. Why didnt Hagrid say that Lily and James had money and that Harry could get his own things? 5. Why was Hagrid not willing to tell Harry why he had been expelled? Chapter 5 Harry wakes to find that its not a dream, a giant did indeed come to the hut on the rock and tell him he was a wizard. An owl delivers Hagrids newspaper and after Harry pays the owl they have a quick breakfast of cold sausages and head off to buy Harrys school supplies. A magically enhanced boat ride and a train trip later, Harry and Hagrid are walking through London, coming to a halt at The Leaky Cauldron. Once inside, the bartender recognises Harry and soon everyone in the pub is crowded around, shaking Harrys hand and introducing themselves. It is here that Harry first meets Professor Quirrell, who will be his professor for the Defence Against the Dark Arts class. Hagrid finally manages to get Harry away from the crowd and the two of then exit the back of the pub into the walled courtyard beyond. Hagrid starts tapping bricks in the wall and, to Harrys amazement, the wall opens. They pass through and enter Diagon Alley. An overwhelming array of new and exciting sights and sounds await Harry in Diagon Alley. They pass a variety of fascinating shops, arriving at their first stop, Gringotts, the wizarding bank. Two wild cart rides later, they have retrieved both Harrys money and the package Dumbledore asked Hagrid to bring back. >From there, its off to Madam Malkins to purchase Harrys robes. Here Harry meets his first fellow student, a boy to whom Harry takes an instant dislike, feeling he reminds him of Dudley. Harry is finished at the shop and leaves before names are exchanged. Over ice cream, Hagrid explains more to Harry about the wizarding world, such as Quidditch and the different Hogwarts houses. From there its a stop at Flourish and Blotts to buy school books, the purchase of a cauldron, and a trip to the apothecary for potions ingredients. They then go to Eeylops Owl Emporium, where Hagrid purchases Hedwig, a snowy owl, as Harrys birthday gift. Their last stop is Ollivanders, to buy Harrys wand. After a brief discussion which includes mention of his parents wands and the fate of Hagrids, Harry is measured for his own wand. It takes numerous attempts to find the right wand for Harry and, in the end, his wand turns out to have the same core as the one which gave him the scar. Purchases complete, Harry and Hagrid stop for a bite to eat. Then Hagrid hands Harry his train ticket for his trip to school and puts him on the train home. Questions: 1. Hagrid says he flew to the hut on the rock. How? 2. I know this has been discussed before, but perhaps there are some new ideas out there. How did the Dursleys manage to get home from the hut on the rock? 3. Neither the key or Dumbledores letter seem to be very carefully examined at Gringotts. Is this a sign of lax security? 4. Harry seems to have been very quick to decide that the boy at Madam Malkins reminds him of Dudley, why do you think that is? 5. Theres no mention of Harry actually leaving Madam Malkins with his robes. Did he actually get them right away? If not, when did he receive the robes? Draco had been there longer than Harry, why wasnt he finished getting his robes? 6. No mention is made of Hagrids buying Harrys ticket for the Hogwarts Express. Did he already have it or did he purchase it that day? I had a hard time coming up with questions, as we have already discussed these books to death! Enjoy. Sheryll, finally doing her first chapter summaries :) ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Oct 12 20:25:40 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:25:40 -0700 Subject: Snakes (was: tell me why... (about the Basilisk)) In-Reply-To: <9q7bin+d6pd@eGroups.com> References: <9q7bin+d6pd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <7756838779.20011012132540@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27578 Friday, October 12, 2001, 11:08:23 AM, you wrote: bve> And how does the Heir of Slytherin control it? By speaking bve> Parseltongue. So I was thinking that Harry could have just said, bve> "hey bve> snake, don't kill me, go back into the statue". I know, you might bve> say bve> that the basilisk is not controlled by Parseltongue per say but only bve> by someone who is the Heir of Slytherin by blood, but that just does bve> not make much sense to me because how is the snake supposed to know, bve> really, what the DNA of the person is? I personally think that bve> Parseltongue is the key to controlling the basilisk and Harry should bve> have tried to talk to it (of course, easy for me to say now). I thought of that too, but it's clear from the Basilisk's rhetoric ("Let me kill... Let me rip", &c.) that this beast is evil and sadisitic, and I think what Dumbledore tells Fudge about the dementors ("They will not remain faithful to you... Voldemort will give them far more scope for their pleasures") applies to the Basilisk too... It wasn't about to take orders from some goody-goody who would force it to lead an honest snake's life living on rats and pidgeons' eggs. But how about Nagini? What if Harry had tried to talk to her in the graveyard? What if he tries to talk to her the next time they cross paths? How solidly loyal is she to V? Might she eventually be swayed to the side of light? -- Dave, who thinks Dumbledore needs to send Harry as envoy to the *snakes*, and also hopes the Brazilian Boa will return to help fight V. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Oct 12 20:27:57 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:27:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape the Unsung Hero In-Reply-To: <20011011234953.70277.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011011234953.70277.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2456975518.20011012132757@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27579 Thursday, October 11, 2001, 4:49:53 PM, you wrote: RGF> I feel an acknowledgement of the debt Harry owes him RGF> would have softened Snape at least a little. I think he should have thanked Snape for teaching him the Disarming Spell too. -- Dave From usergoogol at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 01:48:09 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:48:09 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: New TV ad Message-ID: <9q86gp+pu94@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27580 I was gonna post this before, but didn't. Here goes...On fox I saw another ad for Harry Potter. It had an announcer callingthis movie the "Most anticipated movie ever" or something equallymodest. There was a nice close shot of a Snitch, which I thought wasquite snazzy. Also, there was a shot of who I believe to be"Ollivander" saying that Harry would grow up to be a powerful wizard.Haven't seen the ad again, but maybe you have. At any rate, I'm justyelling this bit of news out, before I go back into my cave and startlurking again.~User "Not witty enough" Googol~ From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 02:04:53 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 02:04:53 -0000 Subject: Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: <20011012194505.49050.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q87g5+jkf3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27581 > 3. Neither the key or Dumbledore?s letter seem to be > very carefully examined at Gringotts. Is this a sign > of lax security? In this world of magic, not everything has to be spelled out for everyone. Goblins seem to be very magical creatures. Perhaps they just KNEW Hagrid was coming, Harry was with him, and that Harry truly deserved access to the vault. After all, they seem so well versed in the banking system. Same could go for Sirius Black theory. This IS magic we're talking here, you know. Goblins strike me as one of those entities that just doesn't need explaining to. -Megan, who was fooled by a Coca-Cola commercial posing as Harry Potter trailer From ms_superhero at hotmail.com Sat Oct 13 03:04:38 2001 From: ms_superhero at hotmail.com (ms_superhero at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 03:04:38 -0000 Subject: Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: <20011012194505.49050.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q8b06+ae9b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27582 Re: chapter 4 > Questions: > 1. Vernon had the foresight to purchase a rifle before > going to the hut. Was he expecting a wizard to show > and how did he think a rifle would defend them against > magic? I would say, yes, definitely, Vernon had to be expecting a wizard to show, given the obvious persistence of whoever was sending the letters. The act of buying a rifle (in fact, the whole escape from the house to hotel to rock in the sea) was actually quite significant in a few ways. It shows: a) the state of paranoia Vernon has reached; b) the extent to which said paranoia has hampered his ability to think rationally (how WOULD a rifle defend them against a wizard? and did Vernon really think he'd have the huevos to use them?); and c) the depth of his mundane-ness (mundanity? You know what I mean). The simple fact that Vernon thought a rifle would defend the Dursleys from a wizard shows his complete lack of comprehension of the whole magic issue. > 2. Petunia considered Lily a freak. If there had been > other wizards in the family somewhere, why would > Petunia consider Lily's magic such an aberration? > Wouldn't she have heard of/been familiar with other > wizarding members of the family? Was there any suggestion there were other wizards in the family? As far as I understood, Lily was definitely Muggle-born. > 3. Who do you suppose addresses the Hogwarts letters > and how did they continue to be able to know exactly > where Harry was? Of course, Hagrid delivered the letters, but as Professor McGonagall was the person who wrote the Hogwarts letters, and the envelopes were addressed in the same green ink as the letters, I'm assuming she addressed them too. The formality and precision of the addresses (culminating in the final "Mr. H. Potter, The Floor, Hut-on-the-Rock, The Sea") also points to McGonagall, in my opinion. No clue as to how she knew exactly where he was. > 4. Vernon says that Harry needs all kinds of supplies, > implying that he is not willing to provide them. Why > didn't Hagrid say that Lily and James had money and > that Harry could get his own things? I assume Hagrid had the good sense to realize (having spent enough time with the Dursleys to see what they were like) that if the Dursleys had any idea that Harry has money of his own, they'd do their best to take it from him. > 5. Why was Hagrid not willing to tell Harry why he had > been expelled? If I'd been expelled from school, I probably wouldn't want to dwell on the topic either. From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 03:06:03 2001 From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 03:06:03 -0000 Subject: Fletcher, Lockhart and Snape In-Reply-To: <9q76b3+g24k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q8b2r+bk6v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27583 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prima_donna_23 at y... wrote: > Sounds like the name of a law firm to me! > > Hi, I'm new here & my name's Kim. Hi Kim. > Lockhart - IMHO Dumbledore didn't know that Lockhart was a fraud when > he hired him, but started getting suspicious when he noticed how > completely incompetent Lockhart was at anything DADA related. If > Quirrell and 'Moody' (ie Crouch in disguise) could fool him, then why > not Lockhart There must be reasons why Dumbledore decides to hire them. Otherwise the only person Voldemort fears (besides Harry) makes three potentially disasterous mistakes three years running. It makes me think of the chess game in SS; Ron had to think several moves ahead and sacrifice himself so Harry could move forward. Maybe to succeed in the end D has to let dangerous situations play themselves out. Maybe they're hired so D can keep them close, or because Harry has to face them and learn something from each. Donna From jirrar at icqmail.com Sat Oct 13 03:24:29 2001 From: jirrar at icqmail.com (Liz) Date: 12 Oct 2001 20:24:29 -0700 Subject: Hello - Percy - Lupin - Owls - GoF Message-ID: <20011013032429.3242.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27584 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jirrar at icqmail.com Sat Oct 13 03:34:13 2001 From: jirrar at icqmail.com (Liz) Date: 12 Oct 2001 20:34:13 -0700 Subject: Dudley's hairs and Hogwarts chairs Message-ID: <20011013033413.3631.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27585 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From szabinasnape at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 03:35:09 2001 From: szabinasnape at yahoo.com (Szabina Snape) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: <9q8b06+ae9b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011013033509.72149.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27586 > > 2. Petunia considered Lily a freak. If there had > been > > other wizards in the family somewhere, why would > > Petunia consider Lily's magic such an aberration? > > Wouldn't she have heard of/been familiar with > other > > wizarding members of the family? > Was there any suggestion there were other wizards in > the family? As > far as I understood, Lily was definitely > Muggle-born. A muggle is a non-magical person from non-magical parents. However, you CAN be muggle born AND have magical relatives because you can have a cousin or aunt/uncle who is both magical and muggle born. I'm pretty sure you're right about Lily being muggle born and not having magical relatives though. However, I'd love it if we found out she was from a magical family and Petunia is a squib. That would definitely explain her hatred/jealousy. Szabina ===== >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From caliburncy at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 04:15:50 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:15:50 -0000 Subject: Hiring Mistakes -- More POV In-Reply-To: <9psn0t+8man@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q8f5m+pab7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27587 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bookraptor11 at y... wrote: > There must be reasons why Dumbledore decides to hire them [ed: the > DADA teachers]. Otherwise the only person Voldemort fears (besides > Harry) makes three potentially disasterous mistakes three years > running. Surely this comment, too, was a (potentially disasterous) mistake? Surely you didn't mean three years *running*? Surely you meant that the mistakes were Quirrel, Lockhart, and Crouch/Moody?! Surely you're not saying hiring LUPIN was a mistake?!! Surely you aren't trying to incur the wrath of a staunch Lupin supporter, who is as loyal to this fictional character as Hagrid is to Dumbledore?!!! Surely you do not have a death wish?!!!! (Surely you realize I am only kidding.) *** Anyway, I have pretty much NO time to post right now, but I did go through some of my older draft responses (yes, I make draft responses on my harddrive; and no, much of it will never see the light of day) and pull out something, although I don't have the time to make it more insightful, so you'll just have to put up with the stupid, rambling original. The following is in reply to some of Cindy's questions about our former POV discussion (about what? a week ago?). Those of you who thought this discussion was over (and thank heavens) will now be sorely disappointed. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > I take it that the narrator can also report things that Harry could > observe, even if Harry isn't ideally positioned to observe them. > > In PoA, JKR seems to do this, as when Harry is regaining > consciousness yet is able to accurately recount a conversation > between Fudge and Snape: > > [Conversation about Order of Merlin, confundus charm, etc.] > > "Harry lay listening with his eyes tight shut. He felt very groggy. > The words he was hearing seemed to be traveling very slowly from his > ears to his brain, so that it was difficult to understand. " Ah, but this says "difficult", not "impossible" so I think we can assume that Harry did make out the same amount of conversation as we did. I don't think we're hearing any more of it than Harry heard. > [More conversation] > > "There was a pause. Harry's brain seemd to be moving a little > faster, and as it did, a gnawing sensation grew in the pit of his > stomach." > > This seems to suggest that our viewpoint character is able to report > things, even if he is not alert or is otherwise impaired. I am > guessing that there must be a minimum level of consciousness and > awareness before the author has to abandon the viewpoint character > POV, although I am not sure what it is. > > For instance, could a baby be a viewpoint character? I don't know. I've seen it done. But it's often cheesy. However, it's only *really* cheesy, when it's first-person, at which point the baby is no longer the viewpoint character, but the narrator. Still, you can do it. > On the other hand, I suppose that we can't assume that the viewpoint > character is reporting everything that he is positioned to observe. > In the conversation above, for instance, can we be sure we have > heard everything Fudge and Snape discuss after Harry wakes up? > Hmmm. I'm going to pretend this was a rhetorical question and therefore ignore it, because I have no idea what you're asking. No, I'm just kidding. I'll try, but I need to know what you are asking first. Are you asking if it's possible for the narrator to be witholding parts of Fudge and Snape's conversation that Harry himself DID hear? If that's the case, then it's possible, but not at all likely. Narrators generally withold information that a viewpoint character possesses only because it's unimportant (non-lying ones, anyway--see below). They leave out extraneous details that don't really need mentioning. I'm talking about VERY extraneous things here, where it can be assumed they took place without them being descibed. Obviously, that wouldn't be the case with this conversation, as there is no part of this conversation that would be deemed readily assumable by the reader. "Assumable" is the key word here. If its not something that the reader would assume happened even without their being described, then it is generally not left out (although all rules are breakable). In other words, this can't be used to justify holes. Of course, they can leave out all kinds of things if the viewpoint character doesn't notice them (for example, the presumed first part of the conversation that Harry himself did not hear), but this has its generally-accepted limits too. I would discuss this further, but it gets rather off-topic from point of view. As a related extension, even third-person non-character narrators can actually lie (I mean to go into that someday with the Authorial Theory of Misinformation), but whether or not we assume they do is based on precedent. JKR has given us no reason (no precedent) to believe that her narrator ever lies, so we can assume it does not. Usually a book with a lying narrator will somehow make it clear that the narrator is being allowed to lie. Also, this is extremely rare, as you can imagine, and it certainly isn't likely to come into a book like Harry Potter. > Are you sure that the Jordan/McGonagall exchanges aren't still > Harry's POV? I had always thought that Jordan's voice is magnified, > and McGonagall's voice is also because she sits next to him. We are > following Harry as he listens to the commentary, as it is important > that the seeker pay attention to the commentary so he'll know the > score, among other things. My point was that it is not Harry's POV because with Jordan's description of the match we are supposed to be picturing the events of the match, not picturing whatever Harry is seeing or picturing Jordan himself speaking the words. Jordan's commentary doesn't function like normal dialogue; it really functions like exposition/description. Hence there is a "viewpoint focus" of the events of the match, not a viewpoint character. So it is entirely possible that Harry was listening to Jordan's commentary, but I don't think that's relevant. (You are, of course, correct that Jordan's voice is magnified so that the audience can hear it, BTW.) Think about it like a film. If it were a film (as it soon will be) we would hear Jordan's commentary as a voice-over to on-screen images of the match. Hence, "viewpoint focus" on the match. However, there are other instances of Jordan's commentary later on that are most likely still from Harry's POV, like the line: "Slytherin in possession," Lee Jordan was saying, "Chaser Pucey ducks two Bludgers, two Weasley's, and Chaser Bell, and speeds toward the--wait a moment--was that the Snitch?" This one is probably still in Harry's POV, because all of the surrounding context is in Harry's POV. It is unlikely we are switching out of it for two seconds only to join up with it again immediately after. More likely it is just Harry listening to Jordan and watching the described events. But the other initial instance I was discussing is a full and lengthy paragraph that appears to be entirely seperated from Harry's POV. > In any event, there is one rather strange POV shift after the > Quidditch match, however. Harry, Ron and Hermione go to visit > Hagrid, and they plan on telling Hagrid that Snape was cursing > Harry's broom: > > "It was Snape," Ron was explaining, "Hermione and I saw him. He was > cursing your broomstick, muttering, he wouldn't take his eyes off > you." > "Rubbish," said Hagrid, WHO HADN'T HEARD A WORD OF WHAT HAD GONE ON > NEXT TO HIM IN THE STANDS. "Why would Snape do somethin' like that?" > Harry, Ron, and Hermione looked at one another, WONDERING WHAT TO > TELL HIM. Harry decided on the truth. > > Why does JKR give us the viewpoints of Hagrid, Hermione and Ron for > just these (capitalized) clauses? Is this just a glitch, or is it > some omniscient narrator POV creeping in? If so, why? Indeed, that is strange. I didn't bother going that far into the chapter in my analysis so I'm glad you found and brought this up. I do have a bit of an idea, though I'm not positive. The first instance you pointed out ("who hadn't heard a word of what had gone on next to him in the stands") is possibly more like a statement of fact by the narrator than it is Hagrid's POV. Because Hagrid's POV wouldn't include commentary on things that did not occur to him, of course. It is a kind of bizarre instance though. The second instance you pointed out ("wondering what to tell him") includes Harry, so it makes more sense. They are sharing a look, and when you share a look with someone, you guess what they are thinking. So even though the text doesn't need to say it outright, it is clear that this is guessing on Harry's part about what the shared look means, and presumably he's 100% correct in his guess. > A couple of points. First, it seems really odd that JKR gives us > the viewpoint of Bryce, a minor and unimportant character who is > going to die in a few minutes anyway. In some ways, it seems like a > waste. Would it have been possible (and effective) to do this scene > from Wormtail's POV instead? I think Amy explained this well from the "is it a waste?" side of things and how this might affect the powerfulness of his death. Now then, could this have been done from Wormtail's POV? Yes, but it would slightly alter what events we witness. Should it have been? No, I don't think so. I think the scene is more powerful from the perspective of Bryce. It is usually (though *definitely* not always--don't treat this as a hard rule) a good idea to choose a viewpoint character based on who the reader will identify with most. Not in personality, necessarily, just in predicament. In this case, that's Bryce. The reader has pretty much no idea what's going on and has to interpret the whole of Wormtail and Voldemort's conversation. So does Bryce. If we were in Wormtail's POV, then he would know much more about what was going on than we, the readers, do--which would not be effective. Bryce is preferable in that he knows less than or the same as we do (depending on whether you read the earlier books--note that his confusion on HP specific terms is not only logical, since he is a muggle, but helpful for people that are reading GOF before the other books). Also it would seem very random if we didn't know why Bryce was there spying on them, when he is later caught. > Anyway, now that you mention it, Luke, JKR does the same type of POV > shifting in the first chapter of PS/SS. Right, this chapter has been brought up in other discussions of POV, and I, in my absent-mindedness just happened to forget about it at the time I wrote that. > We start with exposition about the Dursleys, then we move straight > into Vernon's POV, although I'm not sure I can pinpoint the exact > place where the transition happens. Vernon gets into the car and > backs out. Then: > > "It was on the corner of the street that he noticed the first sign > of something peculiar ? a cat reading a map. For a second, Mr. > Dursley DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT HE HAD SEEN ? then he jerked his head > around to look again." > > But it might be this subsequent passage instead: > > "Mr. Dursley gave himself a little shake and PUT THE CAT OUT OF > HIS MIND. As he drove toward town he THOUGHT OF NOTHING EXCEPT A > LARGE ORDER OF DRILLS HE WAS HOPING TO GET THAT DAY." Actually, I think the transition might be a teeny bit earlier than either of these. The narrator can be said to be taking on a viewpoint character, not at the moment that the narrator starts telling that character's thoughts, which technically the narrator never has to do (Remember the non-omniscient (I still can't remember the real term, BTW) narrator type? It can still have viewpoint characters.), but at the moment the narrator begins following the movements of that character at the exclusion of other characters. For example: "At half past eight, Mr. Dursley picked up his briefcase, pecked Mrs. Dursley on the cheek, and tried to kiss Dudley good-bye but missed, because Dudley was now having a tantrum and throwing his cereal at the walls. "Little tyke," chortled Mr. Dursley as he left the house. He got into his car and backed out of number four's drive." The transition could be considered to take place anywhere in this paragraph, it doesn't matter exactly where, really, as it's not supposed to be clean-cut. But the first moment at which we are obviously following Mr. Dursley and not the other two is when he leaves the house during the last two sentences *and we, the readers, go with him*. We don't stay with Petunia or Dudley, so they can't be our viewpoint characters. This is of course confirmed when we start hearing Vernon's thoughts. But he was already our viewpoint character before we hear his thoughts. > After spending some time with Mr. Dursley's POV, it seems we get a > pretty clear transition from his thoughts to a viewpoint focus on > Privet Drive in the middle of the night with no viewpoint character. Correct. > Vernon falls asleep, then we get an objective account of the cat's > activity, then Dumbledore appears. JKR seems to take pains to stay > out of his viewpoint, as she uses phrases like he "didn't seem to > realize he had just arrived in a street where everything from his > name to his boots was unwelcome." And "the sight of the cat seemed > to amuse him." Right, this is a good example of the "guessing" I talked about that comes into a non-omniscient narrator. All the "seemed to" phrases achieves this. > In fact, she uses phrases like "seemed to" and "it > was plain that" a great deal. It comes off as quite stilted ? is > this a necessary evil of trying to communicate the character's > emotions while having a viewpoint focus instead of a viewpoint > character? Indeed it is. The alternative would be to make either Dumbledore or McGonagall the viewpoint character, which would probably not be wise. > Then, when Harry is left on the doorstep, JKR comes close to giving > us his viewpoint: > "One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not > knowing he was special, not knowing he was famous, not knowing he > would be woken in a few hours' time by Mrs. Dursley's scream ." > > I have a feeling that this is exposition, not Harry's POV, but I'm > not completely sure. Opinions? Well, it is kind of his viewpoint in a way, though in a way it's more of a viewpoint focus centered around him than actually taking him on as a viewpoint character just yet . . . so, yes, it is kind of like exposition. You could make a decent case that the "not knowing" stuff is not proof of Harry's POV, again because you can't really use someone's POV for the purpose of saying things that they don't know. Harry is not thinking, "I don't know that I'm famous." So it's just a comment by the narrator. Sort of like when a narrator says: "Emily arrived home, looking forward to a relaxing swim in the pool. Fate, it seems, had other things in mind." This last sentence is the narrator bringing their own knowledge (of future events) into the story and it is in no way dependant on Emily's POV. So the narrator in PS/SS Chap. 1 is forecasting a future event here that "he [Harry] would be woken in a few hours' time by Mrs. Dursley's scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles". It is clearly that it is the narrator who has this knowledge, and therefore it is not dependant on anyone's POV. But the overall paragraph does kind of have Harry as a viewpoint character, regardless of whether that "not knowing" locution is supposed to represent his (non-)thoughts. > If we take the first chapter of PS/SS, the Quiddich match in PS/SS, > and the first chapter of GoF, are these the only viewpoint shifts > anyone can recall in the HP series? Those are the only ones I know of. If anyone else finds others I would love to hear about them. -Luke From klhurt at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 05:57:48 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cheating in GoF + Slytherins + Crouch Sr. + Filch doing Magic + Snape's Task In-Reply-To: <9ptdma+ptcc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011013055748.77676.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27589 --- Lexicon Steve wrote: >Not only that, think about the >Triwizard Tournament. [snip] but one >particularly galling problem is that >not one of the champions competes >fairly. They all cheat and get >outside help and advance knowledge and >this is expected! Harry didn't cheat! Outside help was not prohibited, only asking *teachers* for help. The advanced knowledge of the dragons was thrust upon him. He, at least, took it upon himself to even the playing field by telling Cedric which was, IMO, quite the honorable thing to do. The only other thing he could have done would have been to tell Dumbledore but, since all were magically bound to participate, it wouldn't have changed anything except to make everyone uneasy and the Tournament would've continued any way. --- Donna wrote: >To pick a number at random, if 40% of >all current Slytherins and Slytherin >alumni were [Voldemort] followers, >that still leaves 60% who weren't. >Maybe we need to see a Slytherin >auror. Well, we *did* see Crouch Sr., and if he wasn't Slytherin, I'll eat my keyboard! --- jenny from ravenclaw wrote: >My books are at home right now, but >doesn't Lupin tell his class that he >asked Filch to leave the boggart >hidden in the staff room so the class >could use it? No book handy either, but, IIRC, Lupin said he asked the *staff* to let his 3rd-years have a crack at it. But even if he did say Mr. Filch, it doesn't mean Filch would've tackled the Boggart himself. He could've sent a house-elf to handle it. Either way, Lupin's comment doesn't prove Filch can do any magic. --- Kim wrote: >I definitely think that Snape has >rejoined the DEs, even if it is an >obvious theory. I also think that both >he and Dumbledore have discussed the >fact that it is very likely that >Voldemort will just kill him instead >of accepting him as a DE again and the >possibility that Voldemort knows that >Snape was a double agent. After Dumbledore made his request, Snape left the hospital room *immediately*. This reads as if Snape was leaving to do his task right that minute. Since he was at the end of year Banquet a week later, it can safely be assumed that he survived Phase 1 of his task. If it was to re-join the DEs, then he must've convinced Voldemort of his 'sincerity'. So I think you Snapefans can breathe a little easier. Unless, of course, Voldemort is toying with him;-) Kelly the Yarn Junkie (Sean Connery as Mad-Eye Moody?) ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From klhurt at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 06:00:00 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOVIE (Broom + Hagrid's House + Robes + Complaining) Message-ID: <20011013060000.70394.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27590 --- Luke wrote: >Putting the broom in a box, as I seem >to recall it was in the book, would >only have exacerbated their difficulty >in making it possible for the owl to >carry it. There didn't have to be a broom in the package. --- I said (about the mistakes in the movie): >>* Hagrid's house should be wood not >>stone. To which Marcus replied: >It looks like stone from the outside. >What does the inside look like? What >about the roof? What about the floor? >The internal supports? And I respond: "Hagrid lived in a small wooden house on the edge of the forbidden forest." [SS Chap 8: The Potions Master (p. 140 US pbk)] That reads (to me) as if the house is made of wood and you can tell that from the outside. --- Again about the movie, I complained >>* Robes aren't the right kind. And Marcus asked: >What are the right kind and why are >these wrong? And I say: The easiest way is to look at the Starfish and Stick illustration in QTTA which JKR drew herself. --- laura hickman wrote: >Plus, if you don't want to go see the >movie bc you are afraid of the changes >then don't go, just don't try and ruin >it for the rest of us. [snip] I guess >all I'm asking, since I am a >film/tv/radio student, don't boo >something until you see it, [snip] I >want to aplogize for going off, but >these posts about what is already >wrong with the movie is taking away >from the fact that these are very >wonderful stories!!! 1. I am wary of the movie because there seems to be no discernible reason for some of the changes. I haven't, as yet, decided whether I'll see it. 2. I am *not* trying to ruin anything for anyone. I apologize if any of my posts gave that impression. It was not intended. 3. I don't quite understand why you think discussing the 'errors' in the movie takes away from the stories. It is *because* these stories are so wonderful that we pay such close attention to the details. 4. Perhaps you'd be happier if you skip any posts with MOVIE in the subject line? Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From catlady at wicca.net Sat Oct 13 06:32:21 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 06:32:21 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Vain? Message-ID: <9q8n5l+24r9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27591 David Frankis started the thread by quoting that Sunday Times article: > The costume designer said that JKR sees Dumbledore as having > personal vanity - he dresses up a lot John Walton wrote: > We had a teacher like that at school -- the Senior Master, in fact, > who was always impeccably dressed in classically-styled clothes -- > nice shirts, ties, suits and shoes. I've always seen Dumbledore as > the wizarding equivalent of him. Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > We have been told Dumbledore has a vain streak, (one might guess > this for oneself what with the flowing hair and robes and his > praise of his own brilliance) It occured to me today that perhaps Dumbledore is NOT VAIN, but merely understands his obligation to his position(s): Headmaster of Hogwarts, leader of the anti-Voldemort resistance, greatest wizard of the century. Maybe he shows his respect for Hogwarts and his awareness that it is an honor to be Headmaster by dressing, and speaking, in the manner expected of a Headmaster of Hogwarts. Maybe he has found the the students and the 'wizard in the street' will pay more attention to what he is trying to teach them if he dresses, and speaks, in a way that impresses them. One could argue (as I sometimes do, because I HATE wearing uncomfortable clothes, and as Lupin may have done if Dumbledore offered him an advance on his salary to buy some new robes for the teaching job) that it is up to those people to learn to not be so shallow as to judge people only by their clothes, not his responsibility to coddle their prejudices. But if that happened, Dumbledore could have replied: "As a teacher, you have a whole school year to teach them not to judge a wizard by his robes. As bearer of the bad news of Voldemort's return, I may have only moments to persuade listeners to believe me. I don't have time to educate them out of all their prejudices." There is something relevant that I learned from watching all the episodes of Blake's Seven in a marathon --- the people in that distant future society have some WEIRD customs, one of which is that they do not have a rule of etiquette that requires false modesty and putting oneself down. I watched many many episodes in which characters said immodest things before I understand that they weren't being a bunch of braggarts. When the mad scientist who invented Oreck said he was the biggest genius in the galaxy, I thought that he was likely right, but saying so was one symptom of his insanity. When Avon was doing something difficult and told one of the other regulars the high-falutin' equivalent of 'bugger off and stop worrying whether I can pull this off, I am very good at this stuff", I thought he was just being rude. By the time that the psychohistorian who had been hired by the Supreme Commander was taping his good-bye video to her, and he said that there was no master in the psychohistory guild who was better than him at predicting the behavior of individuals, and therefore he knew quite surely that she was going to order him assassinated, and that was why he couldn't stay around to say good-bye in person, I finally understood what was going on. I realised that their unimaginably strange and alien culture simply takes it for granted that people will tell the truth about their abilities and accomplishments, not lie and say they are less than they really are in order to avoid seeming to boast. What a concept. Do we know that wizarding folk who were raised in wizarding culture -- Weasleys, maybe -- are resultant to admit to being good at stuff? Maybe they have that same weird custom as the sci-fi people I was talking about. From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 06:35:15 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 06:35:15 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's House and Hogwarts Robes again In-Reply-To: <20011013060000.70394.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q8nb3+7tar@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27592 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- I said (about the mistakes in the movie): > > >>* Hagrid's house should be wood not > >>stone. > > To which Marcus replied: > > >It looks like stone from the outside. > >What does the inside look like? What > >about the roof? What about the floor? > >The internal supports? > > And I respond: > "Hagrid lived in a small wooden house on the edge of the forbidden > forest." > [SS Chap 8: The Potions Master (p. 140 US pbk)] > > That reads (to me) as if the house is made of wood and you can tell > that from the outside. > I agree absolutely that the text implies a whole lot more wood than the movie shows, but IMO it makes far more sense that the Gameskeeper's hut in a 1000+ year castle be made of more durable stuff than wood. Otherwise they would have to rebuild it every few years. And considering the type of pets Hagrid keeps, a house made mainly of wood would not have much life-expectancy. :) > --- Again about the movie, I complained > > >>* Robes aren't the right kind. > > And Marcus asked: > > >What are the right kind and why are > >these wrong? > > And I say: > The easiest way is to look at the Starfish and Stick illustration in > QTTA which JKR drew herself. > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie I am looking at the illustration right now. I do not see where it says that the person is modeling the standard issue Hogwarts robe. Am I missing something? Marcus From jirrar at icqmail.com Sat Oct 13 06:42:24 2001 From: jirrar at icqmail.com (Liz) Date: 12 Oct 2001 23:42:24 -0700 Subject: Apology for lack of spoiler warning + Errol Message-ID: <20011013064224.10796.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27593 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From catlady at wicca.net Sat Oct 13 07:03:53 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:03:53 -0000 Subject: Upon the Vexed Question of Robes In-Reply-To: <9q3in4+fjqg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q8p0p+a168@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27594 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dittany/Custodienne lake4fam at e... wrote: > For those of you who wish to translate their vision of Hogwarts > Robes into reality, I offer Simplicity Pattern #3339 (also numbered > P254). In illustration for the children's sizes, all the kids are > standing around a cauldron, waving wands, and the boy is wearing > ROUND ;) glasses...Since I have been looking for HP Halloween stuff > (for me, my sons are too old [or not old enough],) this is the best > that I have been able to find. You inspired me to go to www.simplicity.com and find http://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=4908&startrow=19&id=65&H omeDec=0 pattern #9372 Girls' and Boy's Wizard Costume. The other boy (the one who has his hood up) doesn't have red hair, so isn't Ron. The pattern appears to offer one's choice of open robe or closed robe (the difference would be whether you sew up the front seam or edge/face/hem it). They seem to offer quite a number of other witches and wizards (generally recognizable by their pointy hats) in adult sizes. It seems to me that their Wicked Witch of Oz, witch in a transparent long dress, witch in a miniskirt, witch in a fur bikini, and witch in a dress with a tightly corsetted bodice all fall into the closed robe category, while most of their wizards are wearing an open robe over a closed robe. 9887, 8311. From lake4fam at earthlink.net Sat Oct 13 08:57:33 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:57:33 -0000 Subject: Triwizard Tournament Message-ID: <9q8vlt+o87g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27595 As I was cleaning an English teacher's classroom tonight, it hit me (almost Literally) that the Triwizard Tournament is but one step in the Quest Saga. There is a Vitally Important Thing that Needs to be Done (destroy the One Ring, turn Vader back from the Dark Side, defeat Voldemort.) There is a Hero who is not ready to accomplish this V.I.T. However, the V.I.T. that Needs to be Done needs to be done a long, long way away from where the Hero is. So the Hero embarks on the Quest and suffers all sorts of trials and temperings along the way. By the time he reaches Orodruin (etc.), the Hero has grown in strength, selfconfidence, & abilites, and is ready to accomplish his Task. Each of the books so far is a stage of the Quest. The Triwizard Tournament teaches Harry (among other things) that while being honourable is sometimes a handicap, it is at the same time rewarding. Of course, we are watching the growth and maturation of a boy becoming a man. There are vast differences between a 14-yr-old and an 11-yr-old. These differences are even more pronuonced in Harry, because of the difficulty of the challenges he faces. He has left poor Dudders in the dust, because Duddikins has his challenges watered down for him and excuses made for his failures. Harry has very little choice in the matter of meeting his challenges - it's literally do or die - and he has grown accordingly. In other words, I see the Triwizard Tournament as a tempering experience which increases the Hero's (Harry's) readiness to achieve the object of the Quest. As such, whatever other problems that there may be with it, it is absolutely necessary to the development of the seven volume whole. Putting on my Trelawney hat, I predict that Harry will grow into a Hero who will be able to throw the Ring into the Fire himself, and not need a gollum to do it for him. dittany/custodienne, of Ravenclaw From ginnygryff at edsamail.com.ph Sat Oct 13 07:16:23 2001 From: ginnygryff at edsamail.com.ph (Ginny Gryffindor) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:16:23 +0800 Subject: Mandrakes (was: CoS - Snape - Lockhart - Fletcher) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27596 --- Vanessa wrote: One thing that really disturbed me about it was the poor Mandrakes! Anyone want to guess what horrible fate awaited them when they were made into a potion? --- and Meg replied: Oh! I'm so glad to know that I'm not the only one who worried about the Mandrakes. It seems a bit sick to make potions out of them, when they look and act like people (throwing parties, etc). *** Same here. But I was thinking. Maybe Madam Pomfrey doesn't exactly "kill" the human part of the Mandrakes when she prepares the restorative. Maybe she just uses the leaves growing on top of their heads. But what the hey! Those are just my assumptions. Don't know much about potions or Mandrakes. Snape will probably have a field day if I was his student. ("You call that muck potion! 50 points from Gryffindor!") *** --- Meg wrote further: If you like fanfic, you might want to check out Irina's "The Rebirth" on schnoogle and fanfiction.net. Mundungus's son Michael, a Ravenclaw in Ginny's year, is a main character in the fic, and the kid has some interesting baggage from being raised by Mundungus. Plus, it's a really good story! *** Though one of the list elves might kill me and take points off my house for this, may I just say, that "The Rebirth" is one well- written fanfic worth reading! Irina says it will be a two or even a three part thing. But she's a good writer and I like the fact that it's "Ginny-centric" 'cause she's my favorite character. But I don't think Mundungus really has a son named Michael based on Canon. *** ___________________ :-) ginnygryff __________________________________ www.edsamail.com From ginnygryff at edsamail.com.ph Sat Oct 13 07:53:08 2001 From: ginnygryff at edsamail.com.ph (Ginny Gryffindor) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:53:08 +0800 Subject: Ginny and the Basilisk (was: tell me why... (about the Basilisk)) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27597 --- btk6y at v.... wrote: Hey all- don't know if this has been discussed, but I was rereading CoS and it occurred to me that Harry might have gone through a lot of trauma unnecessarily at the end of the book. The basilisk is only supposed to be able to be controlled by the Heir of Slytherin, right? And how does the Heir of Slytherin control it? By speaking Parseltongue. I personally think that Parseltongue is the key to controlling the basilisk and Harry should have tried to talk to it (of course, easy for me to say now). Anyway, thoughts are welcome and hopefully this hasn't already been discussed to death- thanks. *** I'm a newbie, so please forgive me for bringing up this topic if it has been discussed already. I hope the difficulty of sifting through 25,000+ messages to find some answers is reason enough not to get a howler from a list elf. I'm also kinda nervous, putting up this topic 'cause I tend to just lurk and reply once in a while. Am still awestruck by all the smart people here. I think I suffer from some sort of "HPforGrownups Newbie Syndrome". But I know there are a lot of patient and helpful people here, so I think I'll risk it. Here I go.... We know that in CoS, Ginny was "taken over" by Tom Riddle and the memories preserved in his diary. And we also know that "Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber of Secrets. She strangled the roosters and daubed threatening messages on the walls. She set the Serpent of Slytherin on four mudbloods and the Squib's cat." (from CoS, Chapter 17 - The Heir of Slytherin). So as an offshoot to the thread started above, my question is: How did Ginny do it all? Opening the Chamber and commanding the basilisk requires Parselmouth abilities (logically) and you probably have to be the Heir of Slytherin to do it all. Being taken over by Riddle, does that mean she can now speak Parseltongue to be able to command the basilisk? Did Riddle sort of give her some of his powers when he started "pouring some of his soul into her" like what happened when Voldemort cursed Harry? If that didn't happen, then what "mechanism/process" did she utilize to commit all those acts? Any idea will be greatly appreciated. And if this has been discussed before, my apologies again. *** *** Going OT, just wanted to say Hello to Gissy and her guy! It's your little sister here. Hi also to Dianne (from my other HP list, and my classmate in Basic Alchemy at HOL). Also, congratulations (and a shower of fireworks from my wand) to Steve Vander Ark for a very informative and very well-put- together site. *** ____________________ :-) ginnygryff (keeping her fingers crossed, and now fervently researching for a spell that will protect her from List Elf Howlers or a shower of rotten tomatoes) __________________________________ www.edsamail.com From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Sat Oct 13 10:57:12 2001 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:57:12 -0000 Subject: Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: <20011012194505.49050.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q96m8+r4n0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27598 --- In HPforGrownups, Sheryll Townsend wrote: [snip] > Chapter 4 > Questions: [snip] > 3. Who do you suppose addresses the Hogwarts letters > and how did they continue to be able to know exactly > where Harry was? I rather suspect a form of magical quill. It would seem in keeping with the HP-verse in general, and would make it much easier for Hogwarts to track down its students-to-be, particularly muggleborn/- raised children, some of whom might live with parents who move around quite a lot (embassy-children spring to mind). > 4. Vernon says that Harry needs all kinds of supplies, > implying that he is not willing to provide them. Why > didn't Hagrid say that Lily and James had money and > that Harry could get his own things? > > 5. Why was Hagrid not willing to tell Harry why he had > been expelled? While we know that Hagrid was wrongfully expelled, and that Hagrid basically believes himself wrongfully expelled, Hagrid would still find the whole episode an embarrasing thing to recount. There would also be only Hagrid's word against the official records. Finally, I suspect there may be the tiniest fragment of nagging doubt somewhere at the back of Hagrid's mind - a tiny, tiny suspicion that Aragog perhaps had something to do with it afterall. [snip] > Chapter 5 > Questions: [snip] > 3. Neither the key or Dumbledore's letter seem to be > very carefully examined at Gringotts. Is this a sign > of lax security? The key and letter both probably have a way of telling the goblins that they are real - presumably the letter had to be made according to instructions from Gringotts, perhaps under Gringotts supervision with Gringotts parchment, ink and quill - thus the letter would respond in a specific fashion to being handled by a Gringotts goblin. This needn't even be apparent to the customers. > 4. Harry seems to have been very quick to decide that > the boy at Madam Malkin's reminds him of Dudley, why > do you think that is? Quite possibly a lifelong experience of Dudley Dursley, with Draco displaying the same opinions and ways of regarding others that Dudley normally does. Dudley need not be the only boy acting that way at his old primary school either - the district areound Privet Drive sounds like it is ripe with families where the children are properly dressed and spoilt with toys, and likely to look down at Harry, with his meagre means. Harry may have had sufficient observations to be able to recognise a pattern, although it is one he would primarily associate with Dudley, as he seems the ringleader, and also is the one Harry doesn't escape out of school either. > 5. There's no mention of Harry actually leaving Madam > Malkin's with his robes. Did he actually get them > right away? If not, when did he receive the robes? > Draco had been there longer than Harry, why wasn't he > finished getting his robes? I rather suspect that Draco got more robes than was indicated necessary on the list accompanying the letter of acceptance. It would seem in line with the general view we get of the Malfoys. It is also possible that he or his father had specific demands regarding the cut or the details on the robes. He might even have been asking for bespoke, where Harry settled for fitted manufacture. > 6. No mention is made of Hagrid's buying Harry's > ticket for the Hogwarts Express. Did he already have > it or did he purchase it that day? As the ride on the Hogwarts Express seems to be something of a necessity to get to school in the first place, I doubt that Herry needed to buy a ticket. It is a school-train after all, and the ticket seems more a means of ensuring that only the kids supposed to be going to Hogwarts board the Hogwarts Express. Also, by sending a ticket, you basically ensure that all students bring it with them, which is a point, as it does contain the instructions on where to find the train (although I maintain that said instructions are somewhat lacking in necessary detail....). Best regards Christian Stub? From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Oct 13 11:58:54 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:58:54 -0000 Subject: Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: <20011012194505.49050.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q9a9u+29bl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27599 > Questions: > 1. Vernon had the foresight to purchase a rifle before > going to the hut. Was he expecting a wizard to show > and how did he think a rifle would defend them against > magic? Yes, Vernon thought something or someone would show up, if only because of the way the letters to Harry kept appearing. Vernon would have purchased a grenade-launcher if he could have - the rifle was probably the most lethal thing he could get his hands on quickly. And don't you suppose that a rifle could injure or kill a wizard if they were ambushed or taken by surprise and didn't have time to protect themselves with a spell or charm? > 2. Petunia considered Lily a freak. If there had been > other wizards in the family somewhere, why would > Petunia consider Lily's magic such an aberration? > Wouldn't she have heard of/been familiar with other > wizarding members of the family? Maybe there were others in the extended Evans family and Petunia consisdered them freaks, too. Or, perhaps there is a latent jealousy in her feelings towards Lily because Lily had these extra abilities that Petunia didn't have. > 3. Who do you suppose addresses the Hogwarts letters > and how did they continue to be able to know exactly > where Harry was? I'm sure there is some sort of magical letter addressing quill that can work tirelessly day and night to produce these letters. And, since Harry is the Boy-Who-Lived and under some sort of not-quite- explained protection at the Dursleys, I'm sure that Dumbledore is able to keep tabs on Harry's whereabouts. > 4. Vernon says that Harry needs all kinds of supplies, > implying that he is not willing to provide them. Why > didn't Hagrid say that Lily and James had money and > that Harry could get his own things? I think Hagrid sized up the Dursleys pretty quickly and decided that it was a waste of breath to try to explain anything about the wizarding world to them, including wizard money. > 5. Why was Hagrid not willing to tell Harry why he had > been expelled? Don't know - it was not the right time to get into all that? Hagrid was embarrassed about it? Or Hagrid knew he'd probably use some magic sometime in his brief trip with Harry, and wanted to minimize his rule-breaking? > Questions: > 1. Hagrid says he flew to the hut on the rock. How? Perhaps he used his umbrella to conjure up a broom to get out there. > 2. I know this has been discussed before, but perhaps > there are some new ideas out there. How did the > Dursleys manage to get home from the hut on the rock? They were able to attract the attention of a passing fishing boat. And the unwritten law of mariners is that you help anyone you find in trouble. The Dursleys could say that their leaky old boat sank in the storm and boy, weren't they lucky that they were able to make it to this little island? That way they'd just look like incompetent sailors rather than crazy people. > 4. Harry seems to have been very quick to decide that > the boy at Madam Malkin's reminds him of Dudley, why > do you think that is? I think JKR tells us in the following passage: ' "My father's next door buying my books and mother's up the street looking at wands"..."Then I'm going to drag them off to look at racing brooms. I don't see why first years can't have their own. I think I'll bully father into getting me one and I'll smuggle it in somehow." Harry was strongly reminded of Dudley.' Dudley always got what he wanted from his parents and was not above kicking and screaming to do so. Draco is not that infantile, but certainly sees himself as controlling his parents and being able to use them to satisfy his whims. Very Dudley-like. > 5. Draco had been there longer than Harry, why wasn't he > finished getting his robes? I suspect Draco is a bit of a clothes-horse and is accustomed to dressing in the height of fashion. No hand-me-downs for that boy. He has the money to purchase more than what is considered necessary by the school and I'm sure, with his parents' approval, sees clothing as a way to put the Malfoy wealth and position on display. Marianne From djtarb at aol.com Sat Oct 13 12:33:22 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:33:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Warlocks Message-ID: <121.57ccbc3.28f98e93@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27600 Maybe Warlocks are warrior-wizards...that could account for Dumbledore's status as a rather highly ranked warlock, as well. Remember his defeat of Grindelwald (sp?) concurrent with Hitler's defeat. It sounds like the wizards may have had a World War too. Diane in Philly From djtarb at aol.com Sat Oct 13 12:39:27 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:39:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape the Unsung Hero Message-ID: <43.ee765.28f99000@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27601 In a message dated Fri, 12 Oct 2001 9:40:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dave Hardenbrook writes: > > I think he should have thanked Snape for teaching him the > Disarming Spell too. > I just finished re-reading PoA, and was really touched by the scene in which Harry (older by three hours) watches Snape conjure stretchers for him, Hermione, Ron, and maybe even Sirius and transports them to Hogwarts. Even though he acts like a jerk later, he took care of them when they were injured. I'm not a member of Snape Lovers Anonymous, but wanted to add my two cents. It is the act of an ethical man to aid and care for people (even children) who have recently injured and abused him. Diane in Philly From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 13:02:51 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 06:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Warlocks In-Reply-To: <121.57ccbc3.28f98e93@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011013130251.27354.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27602 --- djtarb at aol.com wrote: > Maybe Warlocks are warrior-wizards...that could > account for Dumbledore's status as a rather highly > ranked warlock, as well. Remember his defeat of > Grindelwald (sp?) concurrent with Hitler's defeat. > It sounds like the wizards may have had a World War > too. > Brilliant!! I do believe Diane's got it! Of course 'Warlocks' are the wizarding equivalent of soldiers that would explain both their rowdyness and the esteem in which they're held. Even the name war -lock sounds militant. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 13:35:54 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 06:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Dumbledore Vain? In-Reply-To: <9q8n5l+24r9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011013133554.89759.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27603 Aha, another Blakie? although Rita seems to have missed the fact that, in B7, it is bad guys and not-so-good-guys who are so notably frank about their own excellence she still makes an excellent point. 'Modesty' as in falsely denigrating one's own abilities is not always counted a virtue. It was Sherlock Holmes' opinion that understating one's talents was as much a fault as overstating them and that there was nothing wrong with a frank acknowledgment of one's own strengths. Possibly Wizards feel the same way about it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Oct 13 14:25:31 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:25:31 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Robes again, and wizard fashions In-Reply-To: <9q8nb3+7tar@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9q9isr+623a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27604 Kelly, a junkie: > > The easiest way is to look at the Starfish and Stick illustration in > > QTTA which JKR drew herself. > > Marcus, a prefect: > I am looking at the illustration right now. I do not see where it > says that the person is modeling the standard issue Hogwarts robe. > Am I missing something? Thank you Kelly, for drawing our attention to the picture - I'd completely forgotten it. The amount of leg showing explains more clearly than words why the movie makers funked this one. I think the thing that is easy to miss in the discussion of detail is that robes are normal wizard wear. So when Harry has to go to Diagon Alley to get his Hogwarts robes it's not that he gets a special school uniform which happens unusually to be robes, it's that when you go to Hogwarts your usual robes won't do - you have to wear those robes which are the H. uniform. As I've said before a robe is not an academic gown. However, I think we do have to concede that wizard fashion is changing to follow the Muggles in this as so much else - the younger Weasleys wear Muggle type clothing in the holidays. I guess that as they grow up they will revert to robes, but that each generation will get more happy with trousers at a greater age. The wizard world will finally go over to shirts and trousers at about the time that Muggles go back to robes. There is of course a lot of individual variation too. I look forward to meeting Ali Bashir and seeing what he wears - robes I expect ;-) There are other instances of this. The Hogwarts Express is clearly much older than steam transportation, and so at some stage received a makeover to fit perceptions of Muggle travel. My guess is that this happened in the mid-twentieth century, just as steam was going off the railways. The Knight Bus too, copies Muggle appearance, with only a little of the essence. I can't think of other examples right now: over to you David From ChibiKimiTsukino at aol.com Sat Oct 13 14:36:11 2001 From: ChibiKimiTsukino at aol.com (ChibiKimiTsukino at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:36:11 EDT Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <69.1c560dda.28f9ab5b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27605 The server upgrade has been complete. However, because of an DNS issue, a lot of people are being forwarded to the wrong internet address for fanfiction.net and are thus getting the password prompts. If you are getting password when trying to get to http://www.fanfiction.net please use the following url to get to the site: http://208.179.37.35/ Please let everyone know about this. The problem should be fixed on Monday at the very latest. With the new setup, FanFiction.Net is now able to accept Microsoft Word documents. Xing FanFiction.Net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 14:43:09 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:43:09 -0000 Subject: Cheating in GoF + Slytherins + Crouch Sr. + Filch doing Magic + Snape's Task In-Reply-To: <20011013055748.77676.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9q9jtt+udbr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27606 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt wrote: > --- Lexicon Steve wrote: > > >Not only that, think about the > >Triwizard Tournament. [snip] but one > >particularly galling problem is that > >not one of the champions competes > >fairly. They all cheat and get > >outside help and advance knowledge and > >this is expected! > > Harry didn't cheat! Outside help was not prohibited, only asking > *teachers* for help. The advanced knowledge of the dragons was thrust > upon him. Something that's bothered me ever since I read GOF--wanting others' opinions on this. In the rules, Dumbledore clearly states that the champions cannot ask for help from their teachers. Yet later Hermione shushes Harry (or something similar, don't have the book in front of me) so as not to reveal how SHE helped him on the first task. Is this an error/inconsistency because Hermione is ALLOWED to help him, yet the book later changes to the perspective of NO ONE is allowed to help Harry on the tasks?? -Megan From keegan at mcn.org Sat Oct 13 14:56:08 2001 From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:56:08 -0700 Subject: Robes and their bits In-Reply-To: <9q8p0p+a168@eGroups.com> References: <9q3in4+fjqg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011013074820.00abd670@mail.mcn.org> No: HPFGUIDX 27607 At 07:03 AM 10/13/01 +0000, Dittany and the Catlady wrote of robe patterns: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dittany/Custodienne lake4fam at e... wrote: > > For those of you who wish to translate their vision of Hogwarts > > Robes into reality, I offer Simplicity Pattern #3339 > >You inspired me to go to www.simplicity.com and find >htt >p://www.simplicity.com/design.cfm?designId=4908&startrow=19&id=65&H >omeDec=0 pattern #9372 Girls' and Boy's Wizard Costume.while most of their >wizards are wearing an open robe over a closed robe. 9887, 8311. Thanks for the numbers! Being able to see the patterns without having to drive two hours to Santa Rosa helps a bunch! I'm interested in making a set of robes from the movie. Maybe for Worldcon next year. Dunno. Any way, does anyone know if someone is making the patches? I could embroider some but that seems like a lot of work for a garment that should take about two hours start to finish to make. Have any of the magazines talked about the costumes in more than a designer way i.e. fabrics and layouts? Well, I can hope! I'll be gone for three weeks starting Monday. I guess I'll have to switch this list and the OT list to web only. The five days' worth of mail that I missed when we were at a show was pretty amazing. Catherine in Albion, CA who should be listening to her French tapes so she has some clues when she gets there. From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 15:35:14 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:35:14 -0000 Subject: Costume Robes and their bits In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011013074820.00abd670@mail.mcn.org> Message-ID: <9q9mvi+jndc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27608 > I'm interested in making a set of robes from the movie. Maybe for Worldcon > next year. Dunno. Any way, does anyone know if someone is making the > patches? I could embroider some but that seems like a lot of work for a > garment that should take about two hours start to finish to make. Have any > of the magazines talked about the costumes in more than a designer way i.e. > fabrics and layouts? Well, I can hope! A little help on the patches from someone who is trying to make her own robes-copy from the movie for Halloween. Wal-mart (and probably many other places, I'm sure) sells a fabric that (obviously designed for a pillow) has a panel with all for house "badges" on it. Pretty simplistic and shabby, but it'll do if need be. Wishing someone would seel whatever they had made for the movie, though!! And so the ADMIN police don't grab me for OT chatting...I personally love the way the robes are done in the movie. Authenticall British, no one can argue with that. The colors are excellent--staying with the typical winter drab wear. I personally like the fact that they do have badges--sure does make it a lot easier to tell who is who!! And with a school of about 200-400 students, I think I'd want something on their clothes to at least tell me where they're from because it's really hard to remember that many people's houses. On a note, I did always imagine the robes as closed (slip-over, I suppose)--but I don't think it really matters in something like this. -Megan, who personally LIKES uniforms in school and wishes her school would adopt similar ones to Harry's, :-D From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 15:58:04 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice For A Dark Lord In-Reply-To: <69.1c560dda.28f9ab5b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011013155804.72921.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27609 "Voldy, put down the wand and listen to me...that's better. Okay my first piece of advice is Stop Trying To Get Harry Potter. Yes, yes, I know it's hard for the world's top Dark Wizard to accept he's had his butt kicked three times in a row by an undersized adolescent with a scar on his forehead but one must face facts. Trust me, put Harry on your 'Best Avoided' list right under Albus Dumbledore. "Your next step should be a good refresher course in basic wizardry - yes, I know you have loads of weird esoteric dark knowledge but, Voldy, you keep forgetting the basics! Little things like motherlove being a potent counterspell, Phoenix tears healing, etc. Is there such a thing as a memory strengthening spell? I'll ask Wormtail. "Speaking of whom, I know how much fun it is to indulge one's sadistic urges but trust me, Voldy, abusing the help never pays. The number of Dark Lords who've been done in by disaffected underlings - Yes of course you can punish incompetence but *do* try not to get carried away. "And speaking of incompetence I'd suggest some marksmanship practice for the Death Eaters, their performance in the graveyard was pretty darn pitiful wasn't it? Yes, thank you, I think that's all for the moment - Whoops! you might want to work on your aim too, Voldy. Now don't be cross, somebody has to tell you these things - unless you'd rather lose? (Inspired by reading the infamous "Things I'd Do If I Became An Evil Overlord" list at "http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html") __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 16:44:48 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts Robes again, and wizard fashions In-Reply-To: <9q9isr+623a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011013164448.14304.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27610 > Kelly, a junkie: > > The easiest way is to look at the Starfish and > Stick illustration > in QTTA which JKR drew herself. What is QTTA and where can I find this illustration? You will note in PoA Lupin, of t the 'shabby' wizard's robes thrustd his wand through his belt, suggesting he is wearing a closed and belted robe with perhaps a cloak or open robe over it. How about this: Robes, (one closed with another open over it) and a cloak are normal Wizard wear, (along with the pointy hat - doesn't seem to be any argument about *that* at least!). Younger wizards and witches however like to relax in Muggle style clothes. When at Hogwarts between terms they may revert to Muggle clothes but put the open robe on over them when going to meals in the Hall or for warmth, (bet that castle is drafty). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From nausicaa at atlantic.net Sat Oct 13 17:31:45 2001 From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jenny K.) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cheating in GoF + Slytherins + Crouch Sr. + Filch doing Magic + Snape's Task In-Reply-To: <9q9jtt+udbr@eGroups.com> References: <9q9jtt+udbr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <1002994305.3bc87a81d532c@webmail.atlantic.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27611 Quoting Megan : > Something that's bothered me ever since I read > GOF--wanting others' > opinions on this. In the rules, Dumbledore > clearly states that the > champions cannot ask for help from their > teachers. Yet later Hermione > shushes Harry (or something similar, don't have > the book in front of > me) so as not to reveal how SHE helped him on > the first task. Is this > an error/inconsistency because Hermione is > ALLOWED to help him, yet > the book later changes to the perspective of NO > ONE is allowed to help > Harry on the tasks?? > > -Megan I was always of the opinion that Hermione didn't want it to get around that she was *that* smart. Possibly in line with the emerging-*girl* aspect of the story...she doesn't mind being thought of as smart, but doesn't want to be a know-it-all (anymore?). Or, another thought would be that she doesn't want a particular someone (Krum perhaps?) to know how smart she is *OR* that she's helping the "competition". Jenny K. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent through Atlantic.Net Webmail. Tired of busy signals and disconnections? Visit www.atlantic.net to get fast, reliable dial-up service. From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 18:14:05 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:14:05 -0000 Subject: Teacher vs. student help on tasks (WAS Re: Cheating in GoF...) In-Reply-To: <1002994305.3bc87a81d532c@webmail.atlantic.net> Message-ID: <9qa09d+lpin@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27612 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jenny K." wrote: > Quoting Megan : > > > Something that's bothered me ever since I read > > GOF--wanting others' > > opinions on this. In the rules, Dumbledore > > clearly states that the > > champions cannot ask for help from their > > teachers. Yet later Hermione > > shushes Harry (or something similar, don't have > > the book in front of > > me) so as not to reveal how SHE helped him on > > the first task. Is this > > an error/inconsistency because Hermione is > > ALLOWED to help him, yet > > the book later changes to the perspective of NO > > ONE is allowed to help > > Harry on the tasks?? > > > > -Megan > > I was always of the opinion that Hermione didn't want > it to get around that she was *that* smart. Possibly > in line with the emerging-*girl* aspect of the > story...she doesn't mind being thought of as smart, but > doesn't want to be a know-it-all (anymore?). Or, > another thought would be that she doesn't want a > particular someone (Krum perhaps?) to know how smart > she is *OR* that she's helping the "competition". > > Jenny K. Okay, cannot find the quote for the LIFE of me...but I KNOW it's in there. GOF is simply too long to go through thoroughly page-by-page when I'm not sure exactly where it was in the book. If anyone knows where it is, or finds it & posts it, it'd be a great help. It's something to do with Hermione smiling, saying something to the effect of no one's supposed to help you on the tasks...or don't tell anyone how much I helped you, etc. I BELIEVE (but could be wrong) it was after the first task, talking about the second, but I just can't find it for the life of me! -Megan From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 19:45:29 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:45:29 -0000 Subject: Teacher vs. student help on tasks (WAS Re: Cheating in GoF...) In-Reply-To: <9qa09d+lpin@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qa5kp+486j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27613 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jenny K." wrote: > > Quoting Megan : > > > > > Something that's bothered me ever since I read > > > GOF--wanting others' > > > opinions on this. In the rules, Dumbledore > > > clearly states that the > > > champions cannot ask for help from their > > > teachers. Yet later Hermione > > > shushes Harry (or something similar, don't have > > > the book in front of > > > me) so as not to reveal how SHE helped him on > > > the first task. Is this > > > an error/inconsistency because Hermione is > > > ALLOWED to help him, yet > > > the book later changes to the perspective of NO > > > ONE is allowed to help > > > Harry on the tasks?? > > > > > > -Megan > > > > I was always of the opinion that Hermione didn't want > > it to get around that she was *that* smart. Possibly > > in line with the emerging-*girl* aspect of the > > story...she doesn't mind being thought of as smart, but > > doesn't want to be a know-it-all (anymore?). Or, > > another thought would be that she doesn't want a > > particular someone (Krum perhaps?) to know how smart > > she is *OR* that she's helping the "competition". > > > > Jenny K. *finally found the quotes she was looking for* No, it has to be an inconsistency. Here is an outline of what I was talking about: Crouch says in the rules to Harry: "The other champions are not permitted to ask for or accept help of any kind from their teachers to complete the tasks in the tournament." So if that is the case, why do Harry and Hermione practice in secret? ("...then returned to an empty classroom with Hermione, using the Invisibility Cloak to avoid teachers.")--GRANTED, this could be simply because they were out of their common room after hours, but not necessarily hiding the fact that Hermione was helping Harry with the task. BUT then why does Hermione later say (when Lee Jordan is examining the egg) "'He's supposed to work out the clue on his own,' Hermione said swiftly. 'It's in the tournament rules...' 'I was supposed to work out how to get past the dragon on my own too,' Harry muttered, so only Hermione could hear him, and she grinned rather guiltily." (POA 365) There ARE NO rules against getting help from classmates, and Harry KNOWS it--so why do he and Hermione act like it is illegal? Isn't it also inconsistant later on for the second and third task that he OPENLY seeks help from Ron & Hermione, even asking Madam Pomfrey in the library for magical devices of breathing underwater, and having Professor McGonagall allow them to use her room to practice hexes and spells? And I don't think one could argue that this is simply because Hermione didn't know it was illegal...she has no reason to believe it is (in fact she didn't even hear the rules, which included any fact about seeking outside help)--and Harry also confirmed this, even though Crouch said in the VERY beginning only TEACHER help was forbidden. -Megan, hoping to find a detail the meticulous HPfGU-ers missed! From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 23:20:50 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOVIE: The Great Hall Message-ID: <20011013232050.15482.qmail@web14909.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27614 Has anybody heard if they have gone to the trouble of making the ceiling bewitched? IMO, this is an important feature. If they leave it out, it would be akin to having a clean-shaven Hagrid. Marcus __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 13 23:27:43 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Great Hall in the Movie Message-ID: <20011013232743.98130.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27615 Has anybody heard if they are going to show the Great Hall's ceiling as bewitched? If they don't, it would be rather like having a clean-shaven Hagrid, don't you think? :) Marcus __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 14 01:26:39 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:26:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape the Unsung Hero References: <43.ee765.28f99000@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BC8E9CF.398F6989@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27616 djtarb at aol.com wrote: > I just finished re-reading PoA, and was really touched by the scene in > which Harry (older by three hours) watches Snape conjure stretchers > for him, Hermione, Ron, and maybe even Sirius and transports them to > Hogwarts. Even though he acts like a jerk later, he took care of them > when they were injured. > > I'm not a member of Snape Lovers Anonymous, but wanted to add my two > cents. It is the act of an ethical man to aid and care for people > (even children) who have recently injured and abused him. I pointed this out, a while back in some Sirius discussion, and contrasted it with Sirius' treatment of the unconscious Snape, immediately preceding--no stretcher, allowing him to bump the ceiling, etc. It was pointed out that Sirius might not have known the stretcher spell, but still, I thought the contrast was striking. Snape is hardly unsung, my dear, but I haven't done an aria in quite a while. I'll have to make some time, if you all think there are no dedicated Snape admirers here.... --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sun Oct 14 01:38:09 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:38:09 -0500 Subject: Father figures revisited Message-ID: <3BC8EC80.D1475165@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27617 I spotted this thread during a tiptoe through the archives, and thought I'd bring it back up since it's been rather a while, and new thoughts on this might be fun. This came up during a discussion of family-substitutes that Harry has bonded to--Molly as a mother figure, of course, but the discussions of father figure got interesting. Here, as I recall, was the rundown [his own parents are in the mix, but only as ideals, not real people he associates with]: Hagrid--not really paternal. More of an adult friend; perhaps fraternal. Harry's right at the age when children start having friends who are non-related adults. Dumbledore--father figure, but remote. Respected, loved, even revered, but not terribly close. Nobody you ask for the car keys, if you know what I mean. Arthur Weasley--father figure, more intimate. Respected, but not revered as Dumbledore is; the everyday, useful father, the advice-n-counsel, have-a-beer-with dad. Here was the one I got flak for, and would like thoughts on the most: Snape. Father figure, mostly the negative connotations. The aspect of father that you rebel against, the one who sets curfews, who doesn't listen, who just doesn't understand, who doesn't even want to, the one you come to appreciate only much, much later. Resented, but respected. This is the sort of relationship where a bond grows, but when (sometimes if) discovered, comes as a surprise, even a shock. I thought that Harry has nicely covered all the aspects of father in these characters, and by separating the different paternal functions like that, is free to have stronger associations with these men--he's not resenting one man one day, loving that same man the next--the reactions to each aspect are separated; they are different men. Thoughts? --Amanda From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 01:58:08 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 01:58:08 -0000 Subject: Father figures revisited In-Reply-To: <3BC8EC80.D1475165@texas.net> Message-ID: <9qarfg+60h9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27618 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Hagrid--not really paternal. More of an adult friend; perhaps fraternal. > Harry's right at the age when children start having friends who are > non-related adults. > Dumbledore--father figure, but remote. Respected, loved, even revered, > but not terribly close. Nobody you ask for the car keys, if you know > what I mean. > Arthur Weasley--father figure, more intimate. Respected, but not revered > as Dumbledore is; the everyday, useful father, the advice-n-counsel, > have-a-beer-with dad. > Here was the one I got flak for, and would like thoughts on the most: > Snape. Father figure, mostly the negative connotations. The aspect of > father that you rebel against, the one who sets curfews, who doesn't > listen, who just doesn't understand, who doesn't even want to, the one > you come to appreciate only much, much later. Resented, but respected. > This is the sort of relationship where a bond grows, but when (sometimes > if) discovered, comes as a surprise, even a shock. How about Lupin, Moody, and (the-oh-so-obvious) Sirius Black? I could see how certain traits of them could be considered under father figures. Moody may fall more under "role-model" though... -Megan (wondering if all weekends are this slow) From MeriLeslie26 at aol.com Sun Oct 14 04:15:17 2001 From: MeriLeslie26 at aol.com (MeriLeslie26 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:15:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Father figures revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27619 In a message dated 10/13/2001 9:38:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, editor at texas.net writes: > Here was the one I got flak for, and would like thoughts on the most: > Snape. Father figure, mostly the negative connotations. The aspect of > father that you rebel against, the one who sets curfews, who doesn't > listen, who just doesn't understand, who doesn't even want to, the one > you come to appreciate only much, much later. Resented, but respected. > This is the sort of relationship where a bond grows, but when (sometimes > if) discovered, comes as a surprise, even a shock. > > I thought that Harry has nicely covered all the aspects of father in > these characters, and by separating the different paternal functions > like that, is free to have stronger associations with these men--he's > not resenting one man one day, loving that same man the next--the > reactions to each aspect are separated; they are different men. My response: I think that you are absolutely correct. I think, for most of us, thinking back on our fathers gives us a nice loving squishy feeling. I can only speak for myself, and as a woman at that, but I absolutely love and respect my father and can't remember a time when I didn't. Feelings of resentment and disrespect have been almost erased with the passage of time. In talking with a friend of mine years ago, he told me that men "find themselves" through first rebelling against their father figure. Through this rebelling against their fathers, they end up coming to a deeper understanding of manhood and fatherhood. This journey also give them a more fuller appreciation for who their father is/was/will be, and who they are and who they want to become. I don't think I have the words to express what I want to, so if there is a man out there who can make a little more sense of this... Please do. To bring this back to Harry, it will be interesting to see what happens with his relationship with Snape. As stated above, Snape represents the father or part of our father that we don't agree with... those rules, sentiments, lifestyle, point of view, personality, whatever. In GoF, though, we got a glimpse of a different Snape. As awful as he is, as beaten in some respects or jaded, we see a glimpse of courage and honor that we previously could not conceive. Maybe this is a turning point in Harry's relationship with this father figure. Will he begin to see him in a different light? As a person who might deserve some respect? We not always agree with a person to respect them. I think there is some indication of that in the ending of GoF during the feast. I will have to think more on this, though. There are some interesting implications here. Leslie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 14 04:34:19 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 04:34:19 -0000 Subject: Father figures revisited In-Reply-To: <3BC8EC80.D1475165@texas.net> Message-ID: <9qb4kb+hued@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27620 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: but the discussions of > father figure got interesting. We should not omit Sirius Black, the man legally and morally appointed to stand *in loco parentis* Harry's nightmare at the beginning of GoF prompts him to turn to Sirius for support, but he is not yet trusting enough to tell him everything that is on his mind. I've always been moved by Sirius' "fire-side chat" with Harry in GoF, Chap 19 Never mind me, how are you?" said Sirius seriously. "I'm -" For a second, Harry tried to say "fine" - but he couldn't do it. Before he could stop himself, he was talking more than he'd talked in days - about how no one believed he hadn't entered the tournament of his own free will, how Rita Skeeter had lied about him in the Daily Prophet, how he couldn't walk down a corridor without being sneered at - and about Ron, Ron not believing him, Ron's jealousy... ". . . and now Hagrid's just shown me what's coming in the first task, and it's dragons, Sirius, and I'm a goner," he finished desperately. Sirius does here what any good father should be for his son - he serves as a sounding board, a shoulder to cry on, an encouragement to rally his inner strength to meet the challenge. - CMC > Thoughts? > > --Amanda From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 08:09:10 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:09:10 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: HPfGU movie poll - reminder/reference notes Message-ID: <005b01c15487$81d93b20$4d3470c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 27621 Dear list members, HPFGU MOVIE POLL. NB: CLOSES 19th OCTOBER We're still interested in hearing your preferences on where we should discuss the Harry Potter movies, especially those of you who are recent joiners. A poll has been running for a couple of months now, but we thought it was worth going through some of the pros and cons. Several of you sent us messages explaining the thinking behind your votes, so we've incorporated some of those hopes and fears below. The poll is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=729738 (you may need to reconstruct the link) GENERAL NOTES *It's an advisory poll, which means the outcome will inform the decision. *The poll will be closed on Friday 19th October, midnight UK time. *You can change your vote until the poll is closed. *Others can't see your vote or sell it to the highest bidder. *A copy of this message will be linked from the poll intro. Here are the four options and some notes on the thinking behind them... (1) KEEP HP MOVIE DISCUSSION ON THE MAIN LIST What does this mean? We would continue to ask for a 'MOVIE:' prefix on the headers of all movie-related posts and there would be a requirement for spoiler space until it seemed appropriate to remove it. It's worth pointing out that, because release dates are staggered between November 2001 and May 2002 (see list, here: http://www.hpgalleries.com/moviegallery3.htm), spoiler space would continue for an extended period. What is spoiler space? D R A C O I N L E A T H E R With the juicy details placed much further down the page (note: do not use blank lines or punctuation symbols, as they may get ignored or truncate messages) Pros: *no further splitting up of the list - all book/movie discussion in one place *no additional lists to check Cons: *spoiler space to remember and contend with (see intro, above) *huge increase in message volume, particularly around movie release dates *influx to a literary discussion list of movie fans who may not have read the books *swamping of book-related threads around movie-release times. (2) PERMANENT HP MOVIE LIST What does this mean? We would move all discussions related to the HP movies to a permanent, separate list that would be complementary to the main book-oriented list. Pros: *clear-cut division *no need for spoiler space (you would only join if you'd seen the film[s]) *reduced volume on the main list *people could avoid movie discussions (and movie-only fans) easily Note: *movie/book crossover posts would all go here (pro or con?). Cons: *another list to join *divergence of membership on the two lists *no more posting about the movie on the book discussion list (3) TEMPORARY HP MOVIE LIST What does this mean? We would set up a list for discussion of the movies instead of introducing spoiler space. Rather than maintaining the list all the time, if the message volume dropped (i.e. between films), discussion would return to the main list with the 'MOVIE:' prefixes. Pros: *allows main list to maintain some continuity between book and movie discussions *reduced message volume on the main list only when needed *people could avoid movie discussions more easily during the active periods. Note: ultimately, this may end up being a permanent list. Cons: *rather vague (or flexible, from another viewpoint) *a decision would be required about moves back and forth *there would be some splitting of movie posts between two lists (4) ALL HP MOVIE POSTS GO TO OT CHATTER What does this mean? We would move all movie discussion to our existing OT Chatter list and apply the same rules that would apply on the main list (i.e. spoiler space for an extended period). Pros: *movie, merchandise and casting chitchat would be on the same list as more serious discussion *no need to join another list (assuming members have joined OT Chatter) Cons: *it wouldn't have the same feel as the OT Chatter list we have now *OT topics would be invaded by movie-specific discussion *some of the same 'cons' as listed for the option (1) *there would be posting rules on a list that is currently kept fairly free of ADMIN Thanks. __________ Neil/Flying Ford Anglia for the Moderator Team hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com From raunistar at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 14:09:55 2001 From: raunistar at yahoo.com (raunistar at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:09:55 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the Basilisk (was: tell me why... (about the Basilisk)) Message-ID: <9qc6bj+8n2o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27622 Hello, I'm usually a lurker, too, so you are not alone! My thoughts about Ginny controlling the basilisk: I think she made it in some kind of trance state in which Riddle may have made her speak parseltongue to achieve his goals. When awake, Ginny wouldn't remember doing this and couldn't do it consciously, either. This is how I see it, but I would like to hear what other people think about this. Interesting question! Rauni From allyse1138 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 15:45:29 2001 From: allyse1138 at yahoo.com (Allyse) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:45:29 +0200 Subject: In defense of time travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <1002974563.683.84239.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011014170236.009ed5d0@actcom.co.il> No: HPFGUIDX 27624 Coming in a bit late on this one, I know. It's one of the drawbacks to getting digest posts to wade through, but I don't want 70+ posts arriving daily in my in-box! Rather than quoting here and there, I will merely summarize and say that several people have grumbled at Jo's use of time travel in POA as an unsatisfactory plot device. Since I find Jo's use of the Time-Turner delightfully well-plotted, I am going to step out of my usual lurkdom and natter away at you all. :) There seem to be two basic objections to the Time-Turner: 1. If time-travel is so risky, why is Hermione allowed to use it at all? 2. If time-travel is *not* so risky, why is Hermione only permitted to use it for her classes? Why wasn't it used to save Harry's parents, Cedric in the graveyard, and any other tragedy that occurs in the wizarding world? Those of you of a more scientific bent than me can actually name the following theory, which I can only describe: Time travel, parallel universes, what-have-you can be compared to a cat locked in a box. A single bullet is fired at the box. Is the cat inside dead? Is it wounded? Did the bullet miss it entirely? Once you open the box (and get very, very scratched), you'll know; but until then, all those possibilities exist. It seems to me that Jo's usage of time-travel fits that theory. Until the "box" is opened - Buckbeak's death witnessed, Sirius' soul sucked - the possibility exists that the outcome can be different. That's why the time window for action is so compressed. Actually, Dumbledore *does* already know that Buckbeak escaped; the box is closed for Hermione and Harry, but not for him. Perhaps that's what made him realize that Harry and Hermione *need* to go back in time and do what they've already done. Which leads me to the second time travel theory that is employed here, and my personal favorite in regards to PoA: You can't change the past with time travel, because if you have, it's already happened. Hoist on your own petard, and all that. Jo uses this so tightly that it makes me grin every time I read it. The first time Harry and Hermione go through those three hours, the changes they will make when they go back in time already exist. Some are more obvious than others, of course. The Patronus springs rather strongly to mind. :) But as another example, one I've used before (and how I wish the original thought was mine!): First round: "They skulked in an empty chamber off the entrance hall, listening, until they were sure it was deserted. They heard a last pair of people hurrying across the hall and a door slamming." Second round: "'In here!' Hermione seized Harry's arm and dragged him across the hall to the door of a broom closet; she opened it, pushed him inside among the buckets and mops, then slammed the door behind them. 'Shh! Listen! Someone's coming! I think -- I think it might be us!' Hermione had her ear pressed against the cupboard door. 'Footsteps across the hall... yes, I think it's us going down to Hagrid's!'" In other words, the last pair of people hurrying across the hall during the "first round" was themselves. First round: "There was a jumble of indistinct male voices, a silence, and then, without warning, the unmistakable swish and thud of an axe." "Then, behind them, they heard a wild howling." Second round: "There was a swishing noise, and the thud of an axe. The executioner seemed to have swung it into the fence in anger. And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's words through his sobs. 'Gone! Gone! Bless his little beak, he's gone! Musta pulled himself free! Beaky, yeh clever boy!'" Again, the events of the second round were what actually took place during the first. The only difference is that the "second round" Hermione and Harry, being closer, had a clearer view of what actually took place. I don't need to do the Patronus one, do I? :) But to me, it seems beautifully clear. Harry and Hermione could only go back in time to change things because, well, they already had. That option does not exist for a thirteen year trip back to Godric's Hollow, or even a two hour trip back to the center of the maze. The events had already taken place; the "box" had been opened. They couldn't be changed, because, well, they hadn't been. :) And I think this answers question one as well. Hermione *could* use the Time-Turner for classes, because it was on a very small scale and the changes hadn't taken place yet. Anything bigger - anything more dangerous - falls prey to the risk of being seen, of blowing the space-time continuum out the airlock, or whatever metaphor you care to employ. I do hope the Time-Turner never shows up again; it was tightly plotted here, and well done, but I can easily see it becoming a crutch (can anyone say Polyjuice?). For PoA, though, it is highly satisfying to me. And I'm sticking by it. :) Allyse From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 14 16:49:48 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:49:48 -0000 Subject: In defense of time travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011014170236.009ed5d0@actcom.co.il> Message-ID: <9qcfnc+a4mp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27625 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Allyse wrote: > Rather than quoting here and there, I will merely summarize and say that > several people have grumbled at Jo's use of time travel in POA as an > unsatisfactory plot device. Since I find Jo's use of the Time- Turner > delightfully well-plotted, I am going to step out of my usual lurkdom and > natter away at you all. :) Well, personally as I started the current discussion, I have to point out that my objection is not how well plotted it was ? I thought it was really extremely well ? but the whole concept being suddenly sprung on us (why I think it's the biggest Deus Ex Machina in the series). We did not know about time travel being able to exist before (Hermione's strange timetable could have other explanations ? there is this little thing called magic, you see) and then it is suddenly sprung on us as a solution to a problem. The fact that it doesn't solve everything perfectly is IMO mute. > There seem to be two basic objections to the Time-Turner: > > 1. If time-travel is so risky, why is Hermione allowed to use it at all? > ... > Hermione *could* use the > Time-Turner for classes, because it was on a very small scale and the > changes hadn't taken place yet. Anything bigger - anything more dangerous - > falls prey to the risk of being seen, of blowing the space-time continuum > out the airlock, or whatever metaphor you care to employ. Why take the risk at all? The point about time travel is that the smallest change can mess up everything. Anyone seen the Simpsons Halloween episode where Homer goes back in time, steps on a butterfly, and thus destroys the human race (or something like that). > 2. If time-travel is *not* so risky, why is Hermione only permitted to use > it for her classes? Why wasn't it used to save Harry's parents, Cedric in > the graveyard, and any other tragedy that occurs in the wizarding world? > Those of you of a more scientific bent than me can actually name the > following theory, which I can only describe: Time travel, parallel > universes, what-have-you can be compared to a cat locked in a box. A single > bullet is fired at the box. Is the cat inside dead? Is it wounded? Did the > bullet miss it entirely? Once you open the box (and get very, very > scratched), you'll know; but until then, all those possibilities exist. > It seems to me that Jo's usage of time-travel fits that theory. Until the > "box" is opened - Buckbeak's death witnessed, Sirius' soul sucked - the > possibility exists that the outcome can be different. That's why the time > window for action is so compressed. Actually, Dumbledore *does* already > know that Buckbeak escaped; the box is closed for Hermione and Harry, but > not for him. Perhaps that's what made him realize that Harry and Hermione > *need* to go back in time and do what they've already done. Um... do you mean Schr?dinger's cat? For everyone who doesn't know it, it was a theoretical example used to mock quantum physics. The basic idea is simple ? a cat is placed in a sealed box with a radioactive element which has a half chance of decaying in an hour and a Geiger counter. If the element decays then the counter detects it, a poison is released and the cat is killed. Thus there's a truly random half chance of the cat being killed. The point is ? after an hour, if you don't open the box, is the cat dead or alive? The typically confusing answer is both. But that only works until someone observes it ? as far as I know, you can't have two different observation windows or whatever(?). We also come upon another little annoyance of time travel here ? the fun of paradoxes. What dictates when time *needs* to be changed. Fate? > Which leads me to the second time travel theory that is employed here, and > my personal favorite in regards to PoA: You can't change the past with time > travel, because if you have, it's already happened. Hoist on your own > petard, and all that. Jo uses this so tightly that it makes me grin every > time I read it. The first time Harry and Hermione go through those three > hours, the changes they will make when they go back in time already exist. Unless you go back in time, and make the changes so that your past self believes that's what has happened. But then new you won't feel the need to time travel. And everything will go back to how it was, and so new new you / old you will time travel to change stuff... and etc. > I do hope the Time-Turner never shows up again; it was tightly plotted > here, and well done, but I can easily see it becoming a crutch (can anyone > say Polyjuice?). For PoA, though, it is highly satisfying to me. And I'm > sticking by it. :) > Allyse I agree with the "tightly plotted... and well done" bit, but to me it still seems like too much of a cheat. Time travel is for sci?fi (and fan fiction) ? or at least series where we've heard of it before. Just imagine what a cheat you'd feel it would be if at the end of Return of the Jedi (Star Wars) Luke goes back in time and changes stops Anakin turning to Darth Vader ? or Harry stopping Tom Riddle, if you want a more canon?like example. Jon From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 17:24:05 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of time travel in PoA In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011014170236.009ed5d0@actcom.co.il> Message-ID: <20011014172405.99602.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27626 --- Allyse wrote: > Actually, Dumbledore *does* already > know that Buckbeak escaped; the box is closed for > Hermione and Harry, but > not for him. Perhaps that's what made him realize > that Harry and Hermione > *need* to go back in time and do what they've > already done. God, I hate time travel. It's not that I mind the deus ex machina aspect but untangling the paradoxes makes my head hurt. Allyse makes a very good point. Dumbledore knows somebody saved Buckbeak, he knows the terrible trio have been helping Hagrid defend the hippogriff and he knows Hermione has a time turner. It would not take a very large flash of his well known brilliance to deduce what must have happened - and realize he's going to have to see that it does. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From Littlered32773 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 18:32:45 2001 From: Littlered32773 at yahoo.com (Littlered32773 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:32:45 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: an extra scene In-Reply-To: <9q26kj+9tgs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qclod+c9am@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27627 > Steve wrote: > Asked whether there's anything new in the film, Columbus tells Empire that >[JK Rowling] did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first book > but she had written it and she authorised it and it's in there and > it's a little secret that you won't expect to see.`It's in the >first film because she originally wrote it for the first book and >decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you see the film.' >Later in the interview he goes on to add that it's `one little >sequence where we get a key into something that happened >in Harry's past.' In reading the new Premier Magazine article on HP last night, the author notes a conversation between the director and someone else on the crew (can't remember who-I think the production designer) how many pieces would the Mirror of Erided shatter into? 100? 1000? etc. Now I don't recall the mirror breaking in the book, does anyone else? Could this be what's added to the movie? I know they said the new scene would give some info about Harry's past, but could he maybe see it in the mirror (he does desire to know what happened) and it somehow shatters? Any thougts? From lucy at luphen.co.uk Sun Oct 14 18:40:25 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:40:25 +0100 Subject: Could Draco & Harry be related? References: <9qclod+c9am@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <019201c154df$b25d8c80$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27628 Just had an amusing thought while driving back down the M1 today - don't know how likely it is, but I thought it might be fun to speculate on! Harry's mother is Lily, and his aunt is Petunia, both 'flower' names. Draco's mother in GoF is Narcissa - could this be a female version of the flower Narcissus, and could she be somehow related to Lily & Petunia? Maybe that's why the Malfoys hate Muggles so much, it reminds them of her lowly beginnings? What do you all think? Lucy, who missed her turning to the M25 because she was daydreaming about HP! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 14 18:45:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:45:57 -0000 Subject: Teacher vs. student help on tasks (WAS Re: Cheating in GoF...) In-Reply-To: <9qa5kp+486j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qcmh5+f1oc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27629 This post is way too interesting to let it just hang out there. I don't have much time, but let's have a go anyway: > Crouch says in the rules to Harry: "The other champions are not > permitted to ask for or accept help of any kind from their teachers to > complete the tasks in the tournament." > > So if that is the case, why do Harry and Hermione practice in secret? > ("...then returned to an empty classroom with Hermione, using the > Invisibility Cloak to avoid teachers.")--GRANTED, this could be simply > because they were out of their common room after hours, but not > necessarily hiding the fact that Hermione was helping Harry with the task. > I think that you've got the answer: they aren't supposed to be out after hours, and they're breaking curfew. Also, I think Harry and Hermione have to be a bit discrete because they wouldn't want Krum, Fluer or Cedric to get any ideas by seeing what they are practicing. This doesn't apply to practice in the common room, because none of the other champions has access to it, but it does apply to other practice. > BUT then why does Hermione later say (when Lee Jordan is examining the > egg) "'He's supposed to work out the clue on his own,' Hermione said > swiftly. 'It's in the tournament rules...' > 'I was supposed to work out how to get past the dragon on my own too,' > Harry muttered, so only Hermione could hear him, and she grinned > rather guiltily." (POA 365) > > There ARE NO rules against getting help from classmates, and Harry > KNOWS it--so why do he and Hermione act like it is illegal? Isn't it > also inconsistant later on for the second and third task that he > OPENLY seeks help from Ron & Hermione, even asking Madam Pomfrey in > the library for magical devices of breathing underwater, and having > Professor McGonagall allow them to use her room to practice hexes and > spells? > Ah, the meat of the question -- why do Harry and Hermione act guilty, and why does Hermione try to brush off Lee Jordan? First, I think Harry's comment about previously receiving help refers to the steering he received from Moody and Hagrid about the dragons. (In my opinion, that was awfully close to cheating, but it wouldn't be grounds for disqualification because everyone else cheated too.) But why does Hermione suggest Lee can't help? I think it is because, deep down, Hermione doesn't wish to share the spotlight with Lee (not that she's a bossy braggart or anything ). At this point, she has been Harry's most important friend and tutor, and she takes pleasure in helping him perform. Perhaps Hermione doesn't want Lee to get any credit for contributing and horn in on the spotlight. We know it can't be against the rules for Harry to get help from students to solve the egg's clue because, following Hermione's admonition, Harry opens the egg anyway and listens to the opinions of his classmates. Harry probably wouldn't cheat in front of a room full of people, even his classmates. Hermione tends to interpret rules rather stringently, so I think she interpreted the "cheating" rule that way because that is how she normally tends to view things. > And I don't think one could argue that this is simply because Hermione > didn't know it was illegal...she has no reason to believe it is (in > fact she didn't even hear the rules, which included any fact about > seeking outside help)--and Harry also confirmed this, even though > Crouch said in the VERY beginning only TEACHER help was forbidden. > I think Hermione's knowledge of the rules is from her research about the Tournament (recall that she knows that the head of each school is a judge without being told). The rules may not have been explicit as Crouch's speech. One more observation: Crouch/Moody clearly believes students are allowed to get help from other students. He gave the waterplants book to Neville expecting Harry to ask for help: "I expected you to ask everyone and anyone you could for help". That suggests that students can help students. Harry could have even sought more help than he did; he is just too proud to do so. So for these reasons, I think the cheating issues add up and aren't inconsistent. To sum up: Teachers can't directly help. Their help is limited to teaching their classes normally, and if the champion learns something helpful (like a Summoning Charm), so be it. Teachers can facilitate by providing classrooms, etc. House elves can help. Ghosts (Moaning Myrtle) can help. Friends can help. Judges (Bagman) can't help, unless they really are secretly DEs who are working with Crouch/Moody to restore Voldemort to power and thereby stand to make a bundle on a bet. Innocent convicted murders who happen to be the godfather of a champion can help. Champions can help each other. Cindy From lucy at luphen.co.uk Sun Oct 14 18:56:09 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:56:09 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Flint? References: <9pl5md+nsvh@eGroups.com> <004301c14de0$89714740$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <01c601c154e2$14ee7b00$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27630 Sniff, sniff, no-one answered me during the whole 8 days I was away! I have got another 368 emails to keep me busy though!! Lucy still wondering if this is a valid Flint ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucy Austin To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 9:58 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another Flint? I think I have found a Flint! The counter to the Stunning Curse 'Stupefy', is the word 'Enervate' to bring the victim back round. However, it's been bothering me for a while, and I've finally got round to getting out a dictionary. Sure enough, the English word 'enervated' which this must be related to, means to deprive of vigour and vitality. Surely if you used this sort of word, it should create an even deeper Stun, rather than waking them up? Wouldn't 'Energate' for 'energise' have been a better counter spell? Can I be a L.O.O.N now? Lucy :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From punkieshazam at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 19:08:49 2001 From: punkieshazam at yahoo.com (punkieshazam at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:08:49 -0000 Subject: Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: <9q9a9u+29bl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qcns1+sss0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27631 Can't believe I stopped lurking. In response to Petunia's hostility to Lily: When Tom Riddle killed his father and grandparents, he claimed his inheritance. He then lived in both the Muggle and Wizarding worlds. He used the Riddle money to finance his growing evil empire. He used the name Evans in the Muggle world, married a Muggle woman and they had two daughters--Petunia and Lily. Petunia is a squib, and just like Argus Filch, she is very antagonistic to those who can. This is why Tom/Voldemort was so reluctant to kill his own daughter. He spoke very familiarly to her "Lily, you foolish girl" or something like that. So Voldemort is Harry's grandfather, thus the physical resemblance. Am clueless as to why Voldie wanted to kill Harry. Maybe he didn't come to kill him, just take him away to make him a truly evil Wizard and Lily and James were apalled and resisted. Punkie --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > Questions: > > 1. Vernon had the foresight to purchase a rifle before > > going to the hut. Was he expecting a wizard to show > > and how did he think a rifle would defend them against > > magic? > > Yes, Vernon thought something or someone would show up, if only > because of the way the letters to Harry kept appearing. Vernon would > have purchased a grenade-launcher if he could have - the rifle was > probably the most lethal thing he could get his hands on quickly. > And don't you suppose that a rifle could injure or kill a wizard if > they were ambushed or taken by surprise and didn't have time to > protect themselves with a spell or charm? > > > > 2. Petunia considered Lily a freak. If there had been > > other wizards in the family somewhere, why would > > Petunia consider Lily's magic such an aberration? > > Wouldn't she have heard of/been familiar with other > > wizarding members of the family? > > > Maybe there were others in the extended Evans family and Petunia > consisdered them freaks, too. Or, perhaps there is a latent jealousy > in her feelings towards Lily because Lily had these extra abilities > that Petunia didn't have. > > > > 3. Who do you suppose addresses the Hogwarts letters > > and how did they continue to be able to know exactly > > where Harry was? > > I'm sure there is some sort of magical letter addressing quill that > can work tirelessly day and night to produce these letters. And, > since Harry is the Boy-Who-Lived and under some sort of not-quite- > explained protection at the Dursleys, I'm sure that Dumbledore is > able to keep tabs on Harry's whereabouts. > > > > 4. Vernon says that Harry needs all kinds of supplies, > > implying that he is not willing to provide them. Why > > didn't Hagrid say that Lily and James had money and > > that Harry could get his own things? > > I think Hagrid sized up the Dursleys pretty quickly and decided that > it was a waste of breath to try to explain anything about the > wizarding world to them, including wizard money. > > > 5. Why was Hagrid not willing to tell Harry why he had > > been expelled? > > Don't know - it was not the right time to get into all that? Hagrid > was embarrassed about it? Or Hagrid knew he'd probably use some > magic sometime in his brief trip with Harry, and wanted to minimize > his rule-breaking? > > > > > Questions: > > 1. Hagrid says he flew to the hut on the rock. How? > > Perhaps he used his umbrella to conjure up a broom to get out there. > > > 2. I know this has been discussed before, but perhaps > > there are some new ideas out there. How did the > > Dursleys manage to get home from the hut on the rock? > > They were able to attract the attention of a passing fishing boat. > And the unwritten law of mariners is that you help anyone you find in > trouble. The Dursleys could say that their leaky old boat sank in > the storm and boy, weren't they lucky that they were able to make it > to this little island? That way they'd just look like incompetent > sailors rather than crazy people. > > > > > 4. Harry seems to have been very quick to decide that > > the boy at Madam Malkin's reminds him of Dudley, why > > do you think that is? > > I think JKR tells us in the following passage: > > ' "My father's next door buying my books and mother's up the street > looking at wands"..."Then I'm going to drag them off to look at > racing brooms. I don't see why first years can't have their own. I > think I'll bully father into getting me one and I'll smuggle it in > somehow." > > Harry was strongly reminded of Dudley.' > > Dudley always got what he wanted from his parents and was not above > kicking and screaming to do so. Draco is not that infantile, but > certainly sees himself as controlling his parents and being able to > use them to satisfy his whims. Very Dudley-like. > > > > 5. Draco had been there longer than Harry, why wasn't he > > finished getting his robes? > > I suspect Draco is a bit of a clothes-horse and is accustomed to > dressing in the height of fashion. No hand-me-downs for that boy. He > has the money to purchase more than what is considered necessary by > the school and I'm sure, with his parents' approval, sees clothing as > a way to put the Malfoy wealth and position on display. > > > Marianne From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Oct 14 19:22:46 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:22:46 -0000 Subject: Teacher vs. student help on tasks (WAS Re: Cheating in GoF...) In-Reply-To: <9qcmh5+f1oc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qcom6+ehd1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27632 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: -snip good comments about Hermione's help- > > Teachers can facilitate by providing classrooms, etc. > > House elves can help. > > Ghosts (Moaning Myrtle) can help. > > Friends can help. > > Judges (Bagman) can't help, unless they really are secretly DEs who > are working with Crouch/Moody to restore Voldemort to power and > thereby stand to make a bundle on a bet. > > Innocent convicted murders who happen to be the godfather of a > champion can help. > > Champions can help each other.> I think the key word here is "help", because there is a big difference between helping and cheating. Hermione and Ron actually get permission from McGonagall to help Harry - he refines his charms and hexes because they help him practice. If McGonagall knew that they also "helped" Harry research information for Tasks I and II, I don't know that she would have been so permissive about that. Helping Harry practice what he has found on his own is quite different than giving information to him. Moaning Myrtle was really the one who cheated the most by actually giving Harry a big hint about using the Egg properly. She used the information she got by spying on Cedric and passed it along to Harry, because she saw that he was unable to figure it out on his own. That's cheating, because Harry did NOT figure out the Egg on his own, BUT who would have ever thought that any of the champions would receive help in any form from a ghost? I'm sure any mention of ghosts is not in any rules; it's unchartered territory. Interestingly enough, Dumbledore is the only Headmaster/mistress who does not help his champions in any way (which makes me respect him even more, if that is possible and feh! to anyone who calls him vain). I really don't like that cheating is and has always been a part of the Triwizard Tournament; it makes me a bit uncomfortable. I'd have to say, after the Tournament is finished, that none of the champions were really able to complete the Tasks as each of them relied heavily on others to get through each Task. Also, if cheating has always been a big part of the Tournament, then what is the point of it really? --jenny from ravenclaw *************************** From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 14 19:43:05 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Oct 2001 19:43:05 -0000 Subject: File - VFAQ.htm Message-ID: <1003088585.44884784.46100.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27633 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 14 19:43:06 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Oct 2001 19:43:06 -0000 Subject: File - netiquette2.txt Message-ID: <1003088586.44885019.46100.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27634 ****NETIQUETTE TIPS FOR HP for GROWNUPS**** Harry Potter for Grown Ups is a very high-volume list; so it's important that members observe a few rules to help us all navigate through the ocean of messages. Members, new and old, are requested to observe certain rules of 'netiquette' and good practice, as outlined below. ATTENTION! Please note that we now have separate club areas for OT posts and Announcements: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements You will need to join OT Chatter if you want to submit an off-topic message to the group. 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This will make it much easier to read and help in getting across your point. Please avoid using all lower case letters or, worse still, all CAPITAL LETTERS. ***BE CONSIDERATE OF OTHER MEMBERS' FEELINGS If you disagree with someone's message, no matter how strongly, remember to respect the other person's right to his or her own opinion. If you do wish to refute the post, do so gently, by building up your own case, rather than just knocking down the other person's. And never attack your fellow club members (name calling, personal remarks, etc). Thanks!! >From your Magical Moderators HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com Sun Oct 14 21:01:13 2001 From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:01:13 EDT Subject: Chamber of Secrets/Diary Message-ID: <14f.2765bd1.28fb5719@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27635 A lot of threads on the Scribbulus' Everchanging Inks part of FictionAlley Park have lately turned into praising Tom Riddle and it got me thinking about what really happened in the Chamber. I haven't read CoS in a while so if I'm off in my details, please correct me. Anyways, when Harry gets in the Chamber and Tom starts talking to him, he says something like Ginny told him all about Harry, right? Well, Ginny can't possibly know why Voldemort is after Harry, so even though I'm sure Tom would be curious as to know why his future self is after Harry, why would he still try to kill Harry? (Did that make sense?) Basically Tom's thought process was: Hmm..this girl's just told me that my future self is trying to kill this boy. I've never met this boy (in Tom's lifetime up to the point where he is what, 16?) and his parents aren't even born yet. What the heck, I'll try to kill Harry again anyways. The only reasoning I can think of for this is that maybe Voldemort had kept his diary and told his past self about Harry and then gave the diary to Lucius to put in Ginny's book. Or maybe Lucius just already had it, told Voldie about his plan, and then gave it to Ginny. That's the only way Tom would know why his future self is after Harry right? But then again, another thought occured to me. Someone once asked JKR in a chat if the Time-Turner would ever come into play again. IIRC, she replied "We'll see" or "I'm not telling"--something alon those lines. Maybe Harry goes back in time to fight Tom, for whatever reason, and the point that they get there is before Tom has made the diary. Then, when Tom does make the diary, he kind of already knows that he wants to go after Harry...but then that requires that Harry not defeat Tom. Time-travling is so confusing. Any thoughts on this confusing topic? :) ***Dixie Malfoy*** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Oct 14 21:18:00 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:18:00 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Vain? In-Reply-To: <9q8n5l+24r9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qcve8+gvb1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27636 Catlady wrote: > It occured to me today that perhaps Dumbledore is NOT VAIN, but > merely understands his obligation to his position(s): Headmaster > of Hogwarts, leader of the anti-Voldemort resistance, greatest > wizard of the century. Maybe he shows his respect for Hogwarts and > his awareness that it is an honor to be Headmaster by dressing, and > speaking, in the manner expected of a Headmaster of Hogwarts. Maybe > he has found the the students and the 'wizard in the street' will pay > more attention to what he is trying to teach them if he dresses, and > speaks, in a way that impresses them. Perhaps it is true that high heeled purple boots are just what is needed to convince the average prospective parent in seconds that Dumbledore has that aura of headmasterly responsibility - anything is possible in the WW. But I prefer to think that D loves dressing up, and likes others to share this innocent pleasure. David, thinking that Californian Blake's 7 fans are far higher in the hierarchy of wierd... From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 21:24:44 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:24:44 -0000 Subject: Teacher vs. student help on tasks (WAS Re: Cheating in GoF...) In-Reply-To: <9qcmh5+f1oc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qcvqs+rcgn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27637 Megan posted: > > BUT then why does Hermione later say (when Lee Jordan is examining > the egg) "'He's supposed to work out the clue on his own,' Hermione said swiftly. 'It's in the tournament rules...' > > 'I was supposed to work out how to get past the dragon on my own too,' > > Harry muttered, so only Hermione could hear him, and she grinned > > rather guiltily." (POA 365) > > > > There ARE NO rules against getting help from classmates, and Harry > > KNOWS it--so why do he and Hermione act like it is illegal? Isn't it also inconsistant later on for the second and third task that he OPENLY seeks help from Ron & Hermione, even asking Madam Pomfrey in > >the library for magical devices of breathing underwater, and having > > Professor McGonagall allow them to use her room to practice hexes > and spells? Cindy posted: > > > I think it is because, deep down, Hermione doesn't wish to share the > spotlight with Lee (not that she's a bossy braggart or anything > ). At this point, she has been Harry's most important friend > and tutor, and she takes pleasure in helping him perform. Perhaps > Hermione doesn't want Lee to get any credit for contributing and horn > in on the spotlight. --Then why did she grin guiltily? To me, guilty implies she think they did something slightly against the rules. Cindy posted: > We know it can't be against the rules for Harry to get help from > students to solve the egg's clue because, following Hermione's > admonition, Harry opens the egg anyway and listens to the opinions > of his classmates. Harry probably wouldn't cheat in front of a room > full of people, even his classmates. Hermione tends to interpret > rules rather stringently, so I think she interpreted the "cheating" > rule that way because that is how she normally tends to view things. --I just thought that it looked rather dodgy that Hermione was trying to conceal the fact that she helped Harry with the first task. Personally I didn't really interpret her actions for stopping Harry from getting help with the Egg as some kind of /personal/ agenda--rather as a misinterpretation of the rules. Well, I already said my opinion above, so you guys know what I think. After all, all of this is IMO only--my take on the scene. -Megan (who is thinking about retiring from debating because it never seems to work very well) From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 21:58:12 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chamber of Secrets/Diary In-Reply-To: <14f.2765bd1.28fb5719@cs.com> Message-ID: <20011014215812.95901.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27638 --- UcfRentLuvr at cs.com wrote: > Your point about JKR telling us "we'll see" is a good point. However, I don't know if the time-turner would be used again. I feel that somewhere between book 5 and 7 we will learn how Tom knew his future self disliked (I know quite a soft term) Harry, or also I did like your idea about Ginny telling Tom about Harry and Vol, maybe even if Tom didn't know the whole truth about why he was after Harry, knowing that later in life he had problems with Harry, knowing if he could get rid of him anyway possible, then his future self may even have a better life. True, if you think about it, since Tom tried to get rid of Harry after his older self already lost to him, why should Tom want to get rid of Harry, unless somehow he (young Tom) knew what happened between Harry and Vol. I really have been wondering about that. You know maybe that's why most people seem to think CoS is their least fave book, probably because we don't know why Tom would go after HP since Vol's defeat couldn't be changed even if Tom destroyed Harry bc it was 12 yrs later. I don't know... any ideas? However, just talking about the time-turner... just for all know know... PoA is my fave book... probably because Harry does get (just for a minute) a family, and he does have the best line in very end of the book, about Siris and how Siris will be waiting for info on how Harry's being treated. Maybe it's also because the reader gets alot of extra back history! Who knows... I know I'm rambling... maybe someone can give some other ideas on both the time-turner and why Tom wants to kill Harry! Laura Waid :) Can't wait for BOOK 5... still very unpatiently waiting@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > But then again, another thought occured to me. > Someone once asked JKR in a > chat if the Time-Turner would ever come into play > again. IIRC, she replied > "We'll see" or "I'm not telling"--something alon > those lines. Maybe Harry > goes back in time to fight > Tom, for whatever reason, and the point that they > get there is before Tom has > made the diary. Then, when Tom does make the diary, > he kind of already knows > that he wants to go after Harry...but then that > requires that Harry not > defeat Tom. Time-travling is so confusing. > > Any thoughts on this confusing topic? :) > > > ***Dixie Malfoy*** > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Oct 14 22:00:32 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:00:32 -0000 Subject: Lupin transforms In-Reply-To: <20011013032429.3242.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <9qd1u0+ltnp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27639 Liz wrote: > On to Werewolves (I do love Loony Loopy Lupin so) > > if he only transforms when he SEES (or is touched) by the moonlight, such > > that cloudiness is enough to block it, he wouldn't need to take > > Wolfsbane Potion [...] as he stayed indoors and hung blackout curtains on the > > windows. > > Weeell, there's the possibility (how many times have I used that word now? Must find a thesaurus) that he transforms whether he sees the moon or no, but having it in his sight/it's light touching him greatly escalates the emergence of the wolf. Somewhat like a catalyst...but I'm probably just making excuses :) > Welcome, Liz Yes, I have imagined it working something like that. Perhaps a cumulative buildup rather than a catalyst. There is also the question of psychology. Once Lupin *sees* the moon, his awareness of the impending transformation, and knowledge that it is irresistable (the moon is his boggart, after all) cause it to accelerate. A bit like when you start falling ill at work, but don't realise it until you get home and try to relax. David From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 22:12:44 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:12:44 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Mirror of Erised Breaking In-Reply-To: <9qclod+c9am@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qd2ks+dims@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27640 > > In reading the new Premier Magazine article on HP last night, the > author notes a conversation between the director and someone else on > the crew (can't remember who-I think the production designer) how > many pieces would the Mirror of Erided shatter into? 100? 1000? > etc. Now I don't recall the mirror breaking in the book, does anyone > else? Could this be what's added to the movie? I know they said the > new scene would give some info about Harry's past, but could he maybe > see it in the mirror (he does desire to know what happened) and it > somehow shatters? Any thougts? My idea is that we are going to see what happens when Dumbledore rescues Harry in the last chamber; perhaps it gets crashed in anger or by accident? I thought this odd too - especially since anyone who has read the book knows this doesnt happen...and any writer would tag that as exclusive info...I mean, that pretty much rules out the return of the Mirror of Erised in any future book, doesn't it? Anyway. We'll know soon enough. From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 23:09:07 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:09:07 -0000 Subject: Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) Message-ID: <9qd5uj+cee1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27641 Just out of curiosity. Has anyone heard mention of weither or not Gryffindor won the inter house championship in Harry's fourth year?, or weither or not JKR is going to mention it in her next book. I mean even though harry (kind of) won the cup. Is that merrit for just giving the house championship to gryffindor? Just curious, thanks Scott Chatten From opaldragonfly at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 23:26:40 2001 From: opaldragonfly at yahoo.com (opaldragonfly at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:26:40 -0000 Subject: Is Dumbledore Vain? Message-ID: <9qd6vg+m7me@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27642 Well--considering that according to the OED, Dumbledore's name was derived from "humblebee" and only later came "bumblebee" (even though the "humble" was the sound and not the descriptor of modest ego), I think Dumbledore is humble. He is considerate of all--even those annoyingly vicious towards him--Rita, Lucius, etc. Also, let's remember his age--he is at least 150 (according to JKR) and styles were different as he was maturing! Of course, it sounds like, from his interaction with Nicolas Flammel, for instance, that he may very well be much older. In that case, his sense of fashion has been well- set in other ages! Perhaps these clothes ARE the most comfortable for him since he may be quite used to them. Perhaps the clothes themselves are aspects of his magic--allowing him to literally "hide things up his sleeves"! At his age, what cares he for the opinions of others about his powers or appearance? He focuses on two things: the well-being and education of his beloved students and the fate of the "good" side of the magic world. His taste in clothing may be idiosynchratic, but hey--I'd still rather have him on my side in the coming conflict!!! Opal Dragonfly From bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 23:48:48 2001 From: bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com (bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:48:48 -0000 Subject: Father figures revisited In-Reply-To: <9qb4kb+hued@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qd890+9t9t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27643 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > but the discussions of > > father figure got interesting. > > We should not omit Sirius Black, the man legally and morally > appointed to stand *in loco parentis* > > Harry's nightmare at the beginning of GoF prompts him to turn to > Sirius for support, but he is not yet trusting enough to tell him > everything that is on his mind. I've always been moved by > Sirius' "fire-side chat" with Harry in GoF, Chap 19 > > Never mind me, how are you?" said Sirius seriously. > "I'm -" For a second, Harry tried to say "fine" - but he couldn't do > it. Before he could stop himself, he was talking more than he'd > talked in days - about how no one believed he hadn't entered the > tournament of his own free will, how Rita Skeeter had lied about him > in the Daily Prophet, how he couldn't walk down a corridor without > being sneered at - and about Ron, Ron not believing him, Ron's > jealousy... > ". . . and now Hagrid's just shown me what's coming in the first > task, and it's dragons, Sirius, and I'm a goner," he finished > desperately. > > Sirius does here what any good father should be for his son - he > serves as a sounding board, a shoulder to cry on, an encouragement to > rally his inner strength to meet the challenge. > > - CMC I think your assessment is right on the mark. I have a few different ideas about Sirius, but I'm not sure if I'm just reading too much into the character. I do tend to overanalyze. What I was thinking, though, is that Sirius Black was painted as a sort of philosophical, even ethical, lesson. He is the personification of the much-maligned Absentee Father/Deadbeat Dad because of the length of time he was out of Harry's life, and his status as on-the-lam. Nevertheless, he is also a beautifully sympathetic character. This is so for several reasons: first, he is innocent of wrongdoing, yet willing to face unknown amounts of torment in Azkaban, followed by a life on the run, all without complaint. Second, he takes considerable risks in the beginning of PoA (glimpsing Harry before he [Harry] gets on the Knight Bus, just to see him, covertly treating Harry to the Firebolt, etc.) out of what can only be construed as an almost paternal love for Harry. Third, he offers Harry a home with him, and when this cannot be because of the circumstances at hand, he is always on guard, willing to risk it all by rushing to Hogwarts the second Harry needs him. All of these add up to a pretty sympathetic, even semi-heroic, character! For these reasons, I think that Sirius' character is a way of dispelling the myth of the heartless Deadbeat Dad, and asserting that the Absentee Father might still be a morally good person who truly is capable of loving his child[ren]. Painful, unavoidable life circumstances, rather than selfishness or immaturity, can make an unwilling Absentee Father out of someone, and to judge such a person as just another Deadbeat Dad would be a painful generalization. Then again, maybe it's just another one of the many ways JKR goes about championing the underdog. She's good at that, too. I don't know. Just my $.02. -Benny Hill's Angel. From petrukio at enteract.com Mon Oct 15 00:00:28 2001 From: petrukio at enteract.com (Joel Fischoff) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:00:28 -0000 Subject: Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) In-Reply-To: <9qd5uj+cee1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qd8us+q648@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27644 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sabin_oo7 at y... wrote: >Just out of curiosity. Has anyone heard mention of weither or not >Gryffindor won the inter house championship in Harry's fourth year?, >or weither or not JKR is going to mention it in her next book. I >mean even though harry (kind of) won the cup. Is that merrit for >just giving the house championship to gryffindor? "Mr. Filch, the caretaker, has asked me to tell you that the list of objects forbidden inside the castle has this year been extended to include Screaming Yo-yos, Fanged Frisbees, and Ever-Bashing Boomerangs. The full list comprises some four hundred and thirty- seven items, I believe, and can be viewed in Mr. Filch's office, if anybody would like to check it." The corners of Dumbledore's mouth twitched. He continued, "As ever, I would like to remind you all that the forest on the grounds is out- of-bounds to students, as is the village of Hogsmeade to all below third year." "It is also my painful duty to inform you that the Inter-House Quidditch Cup will not take place this year." "What?" Harry gasped. He looked around at Fred and George, his fellow members of the Quidditch team. They were mouthing soundlessly at Dumbledore, apparently too appalled to speak. Dumbledore went on, "This is due to an event that will be starting in October, and continuing throughout the school year, taking up much of the teachers' time and energy - but I am sure you will all enjoy it immensely. I have great pleasure in announcing that this year at Hogwarts -" -- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, chapter 12 This is where Moody appears as well, if you would like to reread it. Joel From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 00:52:48 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) In-Reply-To: <9qd8us+q648@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011015005248.65740.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27645 ah but the quiddich cup and the hose tournament are two different things aren't they? --- Joel Fischoff wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sabin_oo7 at y... wrote: > >Just out of curiosity. Has anyone heard mention of > weither or not > >Gryffindor won the inter house championship in > Harry's fourth year?, > >or weither or not JKR is going to mention it in her > next book. I > >mean even though harry (kind of) won the cup. Is > that merrit for > >just giving the house championship to gryffindor? > > "Mr. Filch, the caretaker, has asked me to tell you > that the list of > objects forbidden inside the castle has this year > been extended to > include Screaming Yo-yos, Fanged Frisbees, and > Ever-Bashing > Boomerangs. The full list comprises some four > hundred and thirty- > seven items, I believe, and can be viewed in Mr. > Filch's office, if > anybody would like to check it." > > The corners of Dumbledore's mouth twitched. He > continued, "As ever, > I would like to remind you all that the forest on > the grounds is out- > of-bounds to students, as is the village of > Hogsmeade to all below > third year." > > "It is also my painful duty to inform you that the > Inter-House > Quidditch Cup will not take place this year." > > "What?" Harry gasped. He looked around at Fred and > George, his > fellow members of the Quidditch team. They were > mouthing soundlessly > at Dumbledore, apparently too appalled to speak. > Dumbledore went > on, "This is due to an event that will be starting > in October, and > continuing throughout the school year, taking up > much of the > teachers' time and energy - but I am sure you will > all enjoy it > immensely. I have great pleasure in announcing that > this year at > Hogwarts -" > -- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, chapter > 12 > > > > > This is where Moody appears as well, if you would > like to reread it. > > Joel > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 00:57:34 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:57:34 -0000 Subject: interhouse championship (book four) ammended Message-ID: <9qdc9u+c7c0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27646 Forgive me if i am wrong but i was under the impression that the inter house champion ship and the house quidich cup were different things. I mean you can win the cup but lose the house championship right. It wouldn't (sorry for this statement) make sence to just simply merge the two together into one little rivalry. Right??? so who won in harry's fourth year??? From petrukio at enteract.com Mon Oct 15 01:21:45 2001 From: petrukio at enteract.com (Joel N. Fischoff) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:21:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) In-Reply-To: <20011015005248.65740.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27647 On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, scott chatten wrote: >ah but the quiddich cup and the hose tournament are two different things >aren't they? I don't think so, but judge for yourself. This is a quote from Book 1, chapter 7. Joel "Nearly Headless? How can you be nearly headless?" Sir Nicholas looked extremely miffed, as if their little chat wasn't going at all the way he wanted. "Like this," he said irritably. He seized his left ear and pulled. His whole head swung off his neck and fell onto his shoulder as if it was on a hinge. Someone had obviously tried to behead him, but not done it properly. Looking pleased at the stunned looks on their faces, Nearly Headless Nick flipped his head back onto his neck, coughed, and said, "So -- new Gryffindors! I hope you're going to help us win the house championship this year? Gryffindors have never gone so long without winning. Slytherins have got the cup six years in a row! The Bloody Baron's becoming almost unbearable -- he's the Slytherin ghost." Harry looked over at the Slytherin table and saw a horrible ghost sitting there, with blank staring eyes, a gaunt face, and robes stained with silver blood. He was right next to Malfoy who, Harry was pleased to see, didn't look too pleased with the seating arrangements. "How did he get covered in blood?" asked Seamus with great interest. "I've never asked," said Nearly Headless Nick delicately. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Oct 15 01:28:01 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:28:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] interhouse championship (book four) ammended In-Reply-To: <9qdc9u+c7c0@eGroups.com> References: <9qdc9u+c7c0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <274452196.20011014182801@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27648 Sunday, October 14, 2001, 5:57:34 PM, sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com wrote: syc> so who won in harry's fourth year??? I think that since the whole school was in mourning, the Inter-House competition was probably dispensed with. -- Dave From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Oct 15 01:29:17 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:29:17 -0000 Subject: Father figures revisited In-Reply-To: <3BC8EC80.D1475165@texas.net> Message-ID: <9qde5d+fg8j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27649 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Hagrid--not really paternal. More of an adult friend; perhaps fraternal. > Harry's right at the age when children start having friends who are > non-related adults. > Dumbledore--father figure, but remote. Respected, loved, even revered, > but not terribly close. Nobody you ask for the car keys, if you know > what I mean. > Arthur Weasley--father figure, more intimate. Respected, but not revered > as Dumbledore is; the everyday, useful father, the advice-n-counsel, > have-a-beer-with dad. > Here was the one I got flak for, and would like thoughts on the most: > Snape. Father figure, mostly the negative connotations. The aspect of > father that you rebel against, the one who sets curfews, who doesn't > listen, who just doesn't understand, who doesn't even want to, the one > you come to appreciate only much, much later. Resented, but respected. > This is the sort of relationship where a bond grows, but when (sometimes > if) discovered, comes as a surprise, even a shock. > > I thought that Harry has nicely covered all the aspects of father in > these characters, and by separating the different paternal functions > like that, is free to have stronger associations with these men-- he's > not resenting one man one day, loving that same man the next--the > reactions to each aspect are separated; they are different men. I have no quarrel with any of your assessments of the various father aspects of each of these characters. And I will admit to not being a Snape fan - I love the character, but I don't really like him. In other words, I enjoy every single Snape appearance in the books, but I don't think I could be friends with him. My only concern with the idea of Harry having a number of men who provide different aspects of a father-figure is that it still deprives Harry of a true father-figure. It seems somehow contrived to think that one can compartmentalize what is a one-on-one relationship into a one-on-many. Yes, that's the situation that Harry is in, since James is dead and Sirius is unable, at this point, to take Harry in, but it's not a substitute for a father-son relationship. This idea actually makes me feel sorrier for Harry. Any relationship between two people has its ups and downs, its misunderstandings and heartaches. But, ultimately, the two work it out and, even if they may not be perfectly happy with each other, hopefully they will come to a better understanding and appreciation of each other. Harry has never had this opportunity with either parent-figure. Finding different father-aspects in a number of people works to some extent (certainly it's better that seeing Vernon as father-figure), but Harry misses the true richness of having that one person encompass all of these aspects. Marianne From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 01:51:58 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:51:58 -0000 Subject: Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qdffu+3j18@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27650 Inter-House Championship and Quidditch Cup are two seperate intenties. Both were, in the end, cancelled in GOF. Quidditch Cup was cancelled because of the tournament, and Inter-House Championship out of respect for Cedric's death. Both can be backed-up with textual (canon) evidence. -Megan From john at walton.vu Mon Oct 15 02:57:14 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 03:57:14 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: List Info Files -- Got Input? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27651 Hi there and welcome to HPF-GrownUps. My name is Ivan and it will be my pleasure to be your Moderator today! Would you like to try our double-chocolate banana raisin oatmeal chip burger? Or how about a delicious milkshake "quattro formaggio"? ::yanked off stage by walking stick:: Ahem. You will probably have noticed the two lovely list info files that dropped into your mailbox earlier today: namely the VFAQ and Netiquette files. PLEASE READ THEM! ::ahem:: Even if you managed to slip through the Elfing system, you're now in possession of the rules of the list. In the interest of making this an enjoyable, fun community for everyone, please stick to them! (And if you didn't get an Elf, please email HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com to get one :D) Oh, and if you have any feedback or input (like "I wish X or Y question had been answered in the VFAQ!"), please email the Mods at HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com. Cheers m'dears, --John __________________________________ The HPforGrownups Moderator Team MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Please read our Admin Files, particularly the VFAQ and Netiquette files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ From szabinasnape at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 03:33:29 2001 From: szabinasnape at yahoo.com (Szabina Snape) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) In-Reply-To: <20011015005248.65740.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011015033329.97363.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27652 --- scott chatten wrote: > ah but the quiddich cup and the hose tournament are > two different things aren't they? Yes, they are different. The quidditch cup goes to the best quidditch team of the year. The house tournament goes to the house who has the most house points at the end of the year. These are the points the students receive for doing well (an exceptional essay, answering a teacher's question correctly, etc.) and the points they lose for doing something wrong (late for class, breaking a school rule or being a non-Slytherin in potions class). A house may or may not get house points for quidditch successes (I'm not sure on that point), but the quidditch cup and house cup are otherwise separate from each other. In theory, two different houses could win the house cup and quidditch cup. In fact, didn't Slytherin win the quidditch cup and Gryffindor win the house cup in Gof? Szabina ===== >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From szabinasnape at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 03:41:06 2001 From: szabinasnape at yahoo.com (Szabina Snape) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Goof! [HPforGrownups] Re: Inter-house Championship (book four) In-Reply-To: <20011015033329.97363.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011015034106.96738.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27653 I can't believe I messed up so bad! I meant to say Slytherin won the quidditch cup and Gryffindor won the house cup in SS/PS not in Gof! --- Szabina Snape wrote: > A house may or may not get house points for > quidditch > successes (I'm not sure on that point), but the > quidditch cup and house cup are otherwise separate > from each other. In theory, two different houses > could win the house cup and quidditch cup. In fact, > didn't Slytherin win the quidditch cup and > Gryffindor > win the house cup in Gof? > > Szabina > > ===== > >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< > > >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. > Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ===== >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From usergoogol at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 00:58:58 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (Maxwell Simpson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:58:58 -0400 Subject: THEORY: Could Mrs. Norris be Filch's sister? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27654 (Pre-script: I just thought of this new prefix. I don't think its nessicary, but it serves a purpose.) Theory: Some have made theorized that Mrs. Norris may be an animagus (of course, some people may have theorized that Harry Potter is a reverse animagus whos really a spider monkey.) and that theory is reasonable. But here's a theory. Mrs. Norris could be Filch's sister, in animagus form. There's more. According to my theory, Filch is ALSO an animagus, and the two use their powers to catch troublemakers. Explanation: Although the "unregistered animagus" card would be a repetitive card to play, it's concievable. Here's how I figured it. First I read: > Filch owned a cat named Mrs. Norris, a scrawny, dust-colored creature with bulging, > lamplike eys just like Filch's. She patrolled the corridores alone. Break a rule in front > of her, put just one toe out of line, and she'd whisk off for Filch, who'd appear, > wheezing, two seconds later. At this moment I looked at that, and figured, "Hey wait, if Mrs. Norris looks like Filch, and is like a spy for him, what if they are ONE AND THE SAME?" > Filch knew the secret passageways of the school better than anyone (except perhaps > for the weasley twins) and could pop up as suddenly as any of the ghosts. The > students all hated him, and it was the dearest ambition of many to give Mrs. Norris > a good kick. I then realized, "hey wait! We probably see Mrs. Norris and Filch at the same time, and Filch was walking around while Mrs. Norris was petrified, so my theories ruined. But still... HEY WAIT! What if they're twins, and they're both animagi?" (The twins theory changed from fraternal twins to mere siblings.) And that's where I got the theory. I concocted one, disproved it, and quickly thought of another one. It explains why Filch cares so much for Mrs. Norris (although loving a pet is perfectly reasonable, loving a sibling is more so.) And it explains how Filch could "pop up as suddenly as any of the ghosts." Of course, I have to admit, if I'm right, I have another question. "HOW MANY UNREGISTERED ANIMAGI ARE THERE ANYWAY?!?" Of course, the Filch siblings could be registered, but then Hermione would have noticed him (and his mysterious sister) on the infamous list of seven animagi. So its an iffy theory at best. Well, what do you think, sirs? From jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 15 11:15:10 2001 From: jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk (Janie) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:15:10 -0000 Subject: Could Draco & Harry be related? In-Reply-To: <019201c154df$b25d8c80$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <9qegfu+ebj8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27655 Draco and harry do seem to have some scary similarities cos in PS harry was very nearly put into slytheryn, could it be that only a very slight chance has made harry different to draco and fundamentally they were born related. If harry's mother is muggle born and james seems to be magical blood, what is stopping them being related through the magical end, and not the muggle end. (ie james and draco's dad (sorry can't spell his name) are related in some way). Just a thought. love janie -x- --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lucy Austin" wrote: > Just had an amusing thought while driving back down the M1 today - don't know how likely it is, but I thought it might be fun to speculate on! > > Harry's mother is Lily, and his aunt is Petunia, both 'flower' names. Draco's mother in GoF is Narcissa - could this be a female version of the flower Narcissus, and could she be somehow related to Lily & Petunia? Maybe that's why the Malfoys hate Muggles so much, it reminds them of her lowly beginnings? > > What do you all think? > > Lucy, who missed her turning to the M25 because she was daydreaming about HP! > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 13:02:38 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:02:38 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27656 Well, it was NOT said that the House Cup was given to ANY House. The colors in the hall (usually colors of the winning House) were black in the memory of Cedric Diggory. Secondly, All Houses were to support Hogwarts Champions. No house cup given that year! The colours in the Great Hall - had it not been for unfortunate death-case - would have been colours of the [i]school[/i] that won the Tri-wizard Cup. (Hogwarts) I think the competition for House-Cup as well as for Quidditch-Cup wasn't in force that year. Didn't you notice that in the whole PoA no teacher took or gave points to any house - even though some students were given detention? Anyway, how would participating (only one student/school by original plan) and winning the Tri-Wizard competition rate in House-Points? Or the scene in that grave-yard? How'd you rate THAT? Only fair thing is to stop all system for the competition... So - Inter-House Championship of the Year of Tri-wizard Competition does NOT exist. On side note: Harry Potter [i]did[/i] earn the cup. 1) Harry won Cedric clearly in First Task. (and the other's, too) 2) Harry won Fleur Delacourt clearly in Second Task(we might consider him EVEN) 3) The Maze. Fleur was already lost. Krum was totally helpless against Imperius Curse. Cedric - though he did fine, and, in the reaching the cup, may have been yet Harry's equal (despite his inadequance in the First) - well, Cedric didn't manage to duck death-curse right after Cruciatus - Harry did. (And Harry was tortured twice). Also, Harry was well able to resist Imperius unlike Krum... Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:09:07 -0000 > >Just out of curiosity. Has anyone heard mention of weither or not >Gryffindor won the inter house championship in Harry's fourth year?, >or weither or not JKR is going to mention it in her next book. I mean >even though harry (kind of) won the cup. Is that merrit for just >giving the house championship to gryffindor? > >Just curious, > >thanks > >Scott Chatten > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:16:49 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:16:49 -0000 Subject: Marauders' Map Blocked Passage In-Reply-To: <9q6gup+do69@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qenk1+kg08@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27657 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > > And, Hufflepuff... Helga Hufflepuff's chamber to open > anyone cabable of hard work... (Probably doing something very boring). Oh, I'm hurt! There is more to a Hufflepuff than dirt under our nails! ;) "You might belong in Hufflepuff/Where they are just and loyal/Those patient Hufflepuffs are true/And unafraid of toil" (PS/SS) Perhaps the Hufflepuff chamber could be opened by someone who can prove his/her loyalty to someone (or to Hogwarts itself?) - Denise From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:21:09 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Babs Elf AKA Barb) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:21:09 -0000 Subject: Neville's Potential/Wizardly Cheating (was:Teacher vs. student help on tasks) In-Reply-To: <9qcmh5+f1oc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qens5+4r5b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27658 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > One more observation: Crouch/Moody clearly believes students are > allowed to get help from other students. He gave the waterplants > book to Neville expecting Harry to ask for help: "I expected you > to ask everyone and anyone you could for help". That suggests that > students can help students. Harry could have even sought more help > than he did; he is just too proud to do so. I think this is less an example of Harry's being proud and more of an example of EVERYONE underestimating Neville. One might think it odd of Crouch to do this, unless one considers that the last time he encountered Neville's parents, they were very powerful Aurors, and it required several Death Eaters, including him, to take them down. I think Crouch had a great deal of respect for the Longbottoms as opponents, and he has transferred that respect to Neville. He, more than anyone else, probably has the best measure of what Neville could really do if he put his mind to it. He hasn't seen the difficulties that Neville has had in school for the previous three years. If he had, he would have known that it would never have occurred to Harry to ask such a seemingly-troubled student for help. As for your concerns, jenny from ravenclaw, about the "tradition" of cheating in the Triwizard Tournament, consider that Slytherin was supposed to have captured the House Cup many years running before Harry arrived at Hogwarts. Do we seriously think this was done without cheating? There seems to be a tradition not only of cheating in the wizarding world, but of turning a blind eye to it, as though the people who did not cheat (or win) wish they had the nerve to do this, and so cannot in good conscience penalize those who had the chutzpah to actually do it. --Barb From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 15 13:23:24 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:23:24 -0000 Subject: Another Flint? In-Reply-To: <01c601c154e2$14ee7b00$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <9qeo0c+o27d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27659 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lucy Austin" wrote: > Sniff, sniff, no-one answered me during the whole 8 days I was away! I have got another 368 emails to keep me busy though!! > > > I think I have found a Flint! The counter to the Stunning Curse 'Stupefy', is the word 'Enervate' to bring the victim back round. However, it's been bothering me for a while, and I've finally got round to getting out a dictionary. Sure enough, the English word 'enervated' which this must be related to, means to deprive of vigour and vitality. Surely if you used this sort of word, it should create an even deeper Stun, rather than waking them up? Wouldn't 'Energate' for 'energise' have been a better counter spell? > > Can I be a L.O.O.N now? > Aw, gee. Now I feel bad for neglecting you. :-) As a relative newbie, I lack the power and authority to pronounce you a L.O.O.N. (although I surely ought to be able to nominate you, so I'll do that). As for the substance of your Flint, my dictionary agrees, but there could be some Latin involved (or even Brit-speak), both of which intimidate me. Cindy (who would never, ever catch a Flint like this without Lucy's help) From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 13:36:37 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:36:37 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chamber of Secrets/Diary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27660 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: laura hickman >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Chamber of Secrets/Diary >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:58:12 -0700 (PDT) > > >--- UcfRentLuvr at cs.com wrote: > > Your point about JKR telling us "we'll see" is a >good point. However, I don't know if the time-turner >would be used again. I feel that somewhere between >book 5 and 7 we will learn how Tom knew his future >self disliked (I know quite a soft term) Harry, or >also I did like your idea about Ginny telling Tom >about Harry and Vol, maybe even if Tom didn't know the >whole truth about why he was after Harry, knowing that >later in life he had problems with Harry, knowing if >he could get rid of him anyway possible, then his >future self may even have a better life. True, if you >think about it, since Tom tried to get rid of Harry >after his older self already lost to him, why should >Tom want to get rid of Harry, unless somehow he (young >Tom) knew what happened between Harry and Vol. I >really have been wondering about that. You know maybe >that's why most people seem to think CoS is their >least fave book, probably because we don't know why >Tom would go after HP since Vol's defeat couldn't be >changed even if Tom destroyed Harry bc it was 12 yrs >later. > >I don't know... any ideas? However, just talking >about the time-turner... just for all know know... PoA >is my fave book... probably because Harry does get >(just for a minute) a family, and he does have the >best line in very end of the book, about Siris and how >Siris will be waiting for info on how Harry's being >treated. Maybe it's also because the reader gets alot >of extra back history! Who knows... I know I'm >rambling... maybe someone can give some other ideas on >both the time-turner and why Tom wants to kill Harry! > >Laura Waid Well... It might be that Voldemort - after finding out he can't duel with Harry (because their wands are brothers) - decides to do more than just kill Harry: Telling his past self to kill Harry's parents (or just father) before Harry's born. Harry&co. prevent this somehow... >Can't wait for BOOK 5... still very unpatiently >waiting@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Same for me! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:38:05 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Babs Elf AKA Barb) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:38:05 -0000 Subject: Tom's Theme Song: Me and My Ego (was: Chamber of Secrets/Diary) In-Reply-To: <20011014215812.95901.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qeort+l7fe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27661 I think Tom Riddle's reasons for continuing to target Harry are far less convoluted (and more egoistic) than one might think (no Time Turners necessary). He says that Ginny told him "all about" Harry. We must remember that that means as much as GINNY knows, which isn't much. She knows that Voldemort tried to kill Harry when Harry was a baby, and failed, and subsequently Voldemort lost his powers. For someone like Riddle, this is all he NEEDS to know. Harry hurt his future self, which would make his conquest by the "memory" of Tom Riddle a kind of neat poetic justice. Riddle also knows that his future self had SOME reason for targetting Harry, and he is certain (gives himself a lot of credit, doesn't he?) that the reason was a good one. He is not one for doubting himself. I'm surprised JKR didn't give him a line like, "Oh, well, I don't know why I wanted to kill you when you were a baby, but if I wanted to do it, I'm sure I had a good reason." If there's one thing we know about Tom/Voldemort, it's that he has a major ego. --Barb From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Mon Oct 15 13:43:14 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:43:14 -0000 Subject: Another Flint? In-Reply-To: <01c601c154e2$14ee7b00$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <9qep5i+4bsf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27662 "Lucy Austin" wrote: > I think I have found a Flint! The counter to the Stunning Curse 'Stupefy', is the word 'Enervate' to bring the victim back round ...Wouldn't 'Energate' for 'energise' have been a better counter spell? Yes and for soeone with a classics degree (like Jo) its worse than a Flint its a Blushmaker. See the American Heritage Dictionary online for example http://www.bartleby.com/61/24/E0142400.html >>> Sometimes people mistakenly use enervate to mean "to invigorate" or "to excite" by assuming that this word is a close cousin of the verb energize. In fact enervate does not come from the same source as energize (Greek energos, "active"). It comes from Latin nervus, "sinew." Thus enervate means "to cause to become `out of muscle'," that is, "to weaken or deplete of strength." <<< See also the Dictionary of English Usage http://www.lineone.net/dictionaryof/englishusage/d0082007.html And for Real Language LOONS see The Vocabula Review (Motto: A Society is generally as lax as its language ) http://www.vocabula.com/VRMAY01grumbling.htm Jo, Jo, Jo, Jo as Gilderoy Lockhart might say... Edis Edis Edis Edis (who has probably done something as silly somewhere else) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 13:45:37 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:45:37 -0400 Subject: Chamber of Secrets/Diary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27663 Dixie Malfoy wrote: >I haven't read CoS in a while so if I'm off in my details, please correct >me. >Anyways, when Harry gets in the Chamber and Tom starts talking to him, he >says something like Ginny told him all about Harry, right? Well, Ginny >can't >possibly know why Voldemort is after Harry, so even though I'm sure Tom >would >be curious as to know why his future self is after Harry, why would he >still >try to kill Harry? (Did that make sense?) I'm not sure I understand why Ginny would have to know why Voldemort was after Harry. Isn't it enough that she knows he was? TR does not strike me as a person who needs a very solid reason before he tries to kill someone. I don't think the issue is so much that he knows his future self is after Harry, but that he knows Harry is powerful enough to possibly defeat his future self. Tom's plan is to be the most powerful wizard in the world, and he learns from Ginny that he almost attained that goal but was stripped of his power, and almost his life, by a mere toddler. His hope must be that 1993-Voldemort will regain his strength--he knows from Ginny that V. almost did make his comeback in 1992--so he needs to do what he can to get rid of anyone who can stand in the way. Dumbledore is one, but he's foolish and arrogant enough to think he's already scared him away (of course, he might not know what Ginny knows, and what Harry tells him, which is that even at the height of V's powers he wasn't ready to take on AD). Harry is clearly another. There is nothing Tom can do to prevent the 1981 disaster (that must be very frustrating, to see your future self headed for a fall and nothing you can do about it), but he can at least kill Harry in 1993 so that there will be no more showdowns. Amy Z ------------------------------------- Unconsidered, yet a daily necessity --a clean pair of socks is a great metaphor for family love. -Morag Traynor, HPfGU ------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 13:46:48 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:46:48 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauders' Map Blocked Passage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27664 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauders' Map Blocked Passage >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:16:49 -0000 > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > > > > And, Hufflepuff... Helga Hufflepuff's chamber to open > > anyone cabable of hard work... (Probably doing something very >boring). > >Oh, I'm hurt! There is more to a Hufflepuff than dirt under our >nails! ;) > >"You might belong in Hufflepuff/Where they are just and loyal/Those >patient Hufflepuffs are true/And unafraid of toil" (PS/SS) > >Perhaps the Hufflepuff chamber could be opened by someone who can >prove his/her loyalty to someone (or to Hogwarts itself?) Maybe... but I can't think of what the test would be like! Doing manual hard work repeatedly - like an old well where you must pump several times before the water comes up kind of stuff, except that it's magical. Loyalty to a friend... mmh.. Simulation? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Mon Oct 15 13:50:03 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:50:03 -0400 Subject: MERCH: HP in circulars Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B054F9@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 27665 This is probably a borderline OT observation, but I thought I'd make it on the general list, anyway: Did anyone notice the (US national) circulars this week? First, don't get me started on the awful job Toys "R" Us did of labeling the Lego sets. Second, and to me, much more interesting: Target had a circular featuring Halloween costumes for the kids. And one kid was dressed, predictably, as Harry, complete with robes (with a crest, even) and the glasses... and the temp tattoo scars they've had for a couple years now. But what was interesting was that, rather than dead center on his forehead, Target had placed the scar tattoo to the right of his head, over his right eye. It's still the same lightening shape on all the other (pre-movie and movie) merchandising, but the placement has been adjusted to bring it in line with Daniel Radcliffe's makeup in the movie. How weird/cool/predictable/scary is that? Gwendolyn Grace From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Mon Oct 15 13:52:34 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:52:34 -0400 Subject: MERCH: HP in U.S. Circulars Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B054FA@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 27666 This is probably a borderline OT observation, but I thought I'd make it on the general list, anyway: Did anyone notice the (US national) circulars this week? First, don't get me started on the awful job Toys "R" Us did of labeling the Lego sets. Second, and to me, much more interesting: Target had a circular featuring Halloween costumes for the kids. And one kid was dressed, predictably, as Harry, complete with robes (with a crest, even) and the glasses... and the temp tattoo scars they've had for a couple years now. But what was interesting was that, rather than dead center on his forehead, Target had placed the scar tattoo to the right of his head, over his right eye. It's still the same lightening shape on all the other (pre-movie and movie) merchandising, but the placement has been adjusted to bring it in line with Daniel Radcliffe's makeup in the movie. How weird/cool/predictable/scary is that? Gwendolyn Grace From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 15 13:55:38 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:55:38 -0000 Subject: The Inter-house Championship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qepsq+t41h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27667 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susanna Luhtanen" wrote: > On side note: Harry Potter [i]did[/i] earn the cup. > 1) Harry won Cedric clearly in First Task. (and the other's, too) > 2) Harry won Fleur Delacourt clearly in Second Task(we might consider him > EVEN) > 3) The Maze. Fleur was already lost. Krum was totally helpless against > Imperius Curse. Cedric - though he did fine, and, in the reaching the cup, > may have been yet Harry's equal (despite his inadequance in the First) - > well, Cedric didn't manage to duck death-curse right after Cruciatus - Harry > did. (And Harry was tortured twice). Also, Harry was well able to resist > Imperius unlike Krum... I'm not sure I can give Harry (or anyone) credit for winning the cup, as the whole thing was rigged from the start by Moody. It may not be fair to suggest that Harry beat his competitors, as each was disabled (either directly or indirectly) by Moody in the maze. Also, poor Cedric wasn't able to duck Crucio because Krum sneaked up on him from behind. In contrast, Harry received a big boost from Moody, who cursed obstacles out of Harry's way. If anyone can be said to have won, it is Cedric, who had to defeat all obstacles in his way by himself, and survive the Cruciatus curse as well. Also, it is debatable whether Harry would have been able to resist an Imperius curse if he didn't know it was coming (Krum couldn't have known Moody was about to curse him.) Cindy (wondering if the real winner of the Triwizard Tournament was Crouch/Moody) From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:57:26 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:57:26 -0000 Subject: Prefect predictions In-Reply-To: <9q6s8c+k25f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qeq06+k1ld@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27668 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Dean voters, why Dean and not Seamus? > I've always thought of Seamus as more of a "gung-ho" type, and Dean as a more studious type. Just a personal feeling. So I went with the boy I figured spent more time studying. > > Along the same lines, we've met 2 Hufflepuff boys and know about the same amount about both of them. So why is Justin the overwhelming choice for prefect, over Ernie? I voted for JFF myself, but why? > I voted for Justin because Ernie seemed to be hot-headed. In CoS, Ernie is stirring up his fellow Hufflepuffs against Harry. If prefects are selected by their grades *and* their character, I'd go with Justin. Justin is the only Hufflepuff boy that apologizes to Harry for thinking Harry was the Heir of Slytherin. So he gets my vote. > > The obvious debate, of course, is whether Harry should get it, wants it, and/or will be an interesting choice from the dramatic POV. > I don't think Harry wants the prefect spot. I think he'd see it as another reason to be singled out. And he's had just about enough of being singled out with the Triwizard Tournament. And I don't think that McGonagall (or whoever selects the prefects in each House) will select him, for two reasons: 1) He's probably an above average student, but not the best student; 2) With the return of Voldemort, Harry will probably have his hands full watching over himself, let alone an entire House. > > Some other observations: > > -The most lopsided vote is for Hermione (94.2% in the Gryffindor girl poll). Draco's is almost as high, though a few people are holding out for "none of the above" for the Slytherin boy. I'd love to know who, if anyone, the none-of-the-above voters have in mind. I'd also love to hear from Lavender and Parvati partisans about why they think Hermione won't get the nod. > Although I voted for Hermione, she seems almost *too* much of a sure thing. I'd love to see her as prefect (and then Head Girl), but I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't chosen as a prefect because of her prior history of rulebreaking. Or she may lose her position as a prefect (or lose the position of Head Girl) due to some sort of rulebreaking gone wrong. I'd expect that since Voldemort has returned to his full powers, things will clamp down at Hogwarts. And infractions will be dealt with harshly. And as much as I'd hate to see it, that could end up hurting Hermione. And I think that Draco will get the Slytherin nod. He's had to keep his grades perfect (to please his father), and his character (based on Slytherin ideals) is excellent, so I think he's in. - Denise From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Mon Oct 15 14:02:31 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:02:31 -0400 Subject: MERCH: HP in U.S. circulars Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B054FB@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 27669 This is probably a borderline OT observation, but I thought I'd make it on the general list, anyway: Did anyone notice the (US national) circulars this week? First, don't get me started on the awful job Toys "R" Us did of labeling the Lego sets. Second, and to me, much more interesting: Target had a circular featuring Halloween costumes for the kids. And one kid was dressed, predictably, as Harry, complete with robes (with a crest, even) and the glasses... and the temp tattoo scars they've had for a couple years now. But what was interesting was that, rather than dead center on his forehead, Target had placed the scar tattoo to the right of his head, over his right eye. It's still the same lightening shape on all the other (pre-movie and movie) merchandising, but the placement has been adjusted to bring it in line with Daniel Radcliffe's makeup in the movie. How weird/cool/predictable/scary is that? Gwendolyn Grace From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Mon Oct 15 14:11:51 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:11:51 -0000 Subject: MERCH: HP in U.S. circulars In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B054FB@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9qeqr7+t051@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27670 My apologies to the list! I just realized I sent this message three times, thinking it hadn't gone through because of an error message I received. (It was a recipient's error, not my sending error. Teach me not to completely _read_ the thing and assume it was on my end.) My bad. Please disregard copies 2 and 3. Gwen From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 14:14:21 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:14:21 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] THEORY: Could Mrs. Norris be Filch's sister? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27671 Unregistered Animagi known(to us) and alive: Peter Pettigrew(rat) Sirius Black(dog) Rita Skeeter(beetle) (Mrs. Norris?) But if Mr. Filch is a squip, being animagi is not for him... (Remember the papers Harry noticed in his office...) Seven registered... Could be more or less unregistered ones, I think. And Registered Animagi: Minerva McGonagall (cat)(We've seen her transform in book 1 - I don't remember if it was ever mentioned about her being registered, but as she's the transfiguration teacher and head of house I'd except it!) Who are the others? Possibly Dumbledore - transforming into a bumblebee? 1) Animagi explains how he'd seen Ron's grande chess-play, seen Hermione ussing cool logic in the hot place, and witnessed Harry's bravery, and Neville's attempt to stop them... "For the best chess-game I've ever seen" (So he saw it, but the students didn't see him) 2)Most powerful wizard in the World and NOT an animagi? I think not. 3)I must except the Headmaster showing good example and be registered. 4)Bumblebee because a) his name comes from that and b)he likes sweet (why else would the password to his office would be a type of a sweet??) Thoughts? Also... Is Voldemort Animagi? Registered or not? Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From saitaina at wizzards.net Mon Oct 15 14:25:05 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:25:05 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another Flint? References: <9qep5i+4bsf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <014801c15585$312e1700$074e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 27672 I believe that was a joke loves. You know, to have the words to a 'knock out curse' to mean basically the same thing as the curse. I don't think it's a flint, just a bit of a joke on the author's part. Saitaina ***** "Weasley, darling. Draco`s hand wants its blood back, please.-Harry Potter Fanfiction "Oh of course, you would think so," Snapped Ron. "You've been kissing Malfoy all over the place, after all, it's only natural you would want to save his scaly hide. You bad girl Hermione. You smoocher of evil."-Ron, "Draco Dormiens", By Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic "Better than Way Too Late Guy," Said Ron. "Better than, Just Stood Back Like a Prad And Watched Her Go Off With Malfoy Guy."-Ron, "Draco Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic "Oh no," said Ron cheerfully. "I'm proud to say that you didn't stand back. You went breavely forwards, made a huge idiot out of yoursef and she still went off with Malfoy."-Ron, "Draco Dormiens", by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 14:46:53 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:46:53 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] winner of Tri-Wizard Cup Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27673 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >I'm not sure I can give Harry (or anyone) credit for winning the cup, >as the whole thing was rigged from the start by Moody. It may not be >fair to suggest that Harry beat his competitors, as each was disabled >(either directly or indirectly) by Moody in the maze. Also, poor >Cedric wasn't able to duck Crucio because Krum sneaked up on him from >behind. In contrast, Harry received a big boost from Moody, who >cursed obstacles out of Harry's way. Not the Crucio - The Avada Kedavra cast by Pettigrew/Voldemort. (After Cedric and Harry shared the Cup). (Extra Task to determine the Winner) -Cedric was hit - Harry managed to duck behind the gravestone... >If anyone can be said to have won, it is Cedric, who had to defeat >all obstacles in his way by himself, and survive the Cruciatus curse >as well. We don't know if Harry would have done it as well, do we? Summoning Patronus during third year (When very few adults can) & all the studying about curses... >Also, it is debatable whether Harry would have been able to resist an >Imperius curse if he didn't know it was coming (Krum couldn't have >known Moody was about to curse him.) Harry resisted Imperius not only in the class but also when Voldemort put it on him. >Cindy (wondering if the real winner of the Triwizard Tournament was >Crouch/Moody) If Crouch's portkey had been faulty - (Or someone managed to rid that spell just in time) - It might be that Harry and Cedric might have solved their bettering by a duel, but oh well... Facing the REAL evil ones: Harry survived, Cedric didn't. Pettigrew did imprison Harry instead of killing him, but was he unable to kill him because of the life-debt? or would Harry have ducked that one as well as the one by Voldemort?... And - even if Cedric and Harry - all other things considered, Harry managing to do that as fourth-year against three seventh-years does give a bit of extra-credit to Harry... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 14:55:23 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apologetic Hufflepuffs In-Reply-To: <9qeq06+k1ld@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011015145523.23203.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27674 --- magpie1112 at yahoo.com wrote: > Justin is the only Hufflepuff boy that > apologizes to > Harry for thinking Harry was the Heir of Slytherin. That is incorrect. Ernie McMillan also apologizes after Hermione is attacked. He knows Harry would never hurt her so he can't be the heir of Slytherin and he tells Harry so in Herbal class and that he, (Ernie) is sorry he ever suspected him. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 15:06:18 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Potential/Wizardly Cheating (was:Teacher vs. student help on tasks) In-Reply-To: <9qens5+4r5b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011015150618.57998.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27675 --- Babs Elf AKA Barb wrote: > Slytherin was > supposed to have captured the House Cup many years running before > Harry arrived at Hogwarts. Do we seriously think this was done > without cheating? Well yes. We see the Slytherin team do a lot of fouling, and being penalized for it, but the only real attempt at cheating is Malfoy and co.'s Dementor impersonations. Given the lack of evidence it seems to me a little unfair to *assume* Slytherin must have cheated to win. I mean one would have expected one of the Gryffindors to comment on the fact if it were so. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Mon Oct 15 15:17:02 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another Flint? In-Reply-To: <9qep5i+4bsf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27676 On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk wrote: > "Lucy Austin" wrote: > > > I think I have found a Flint! The counter to the Stunning > Curse 'Stupefy', is the word 'Enervate' to bring the victim back > round ...Wouldn't 'Energate' for 'energise' have been a better > counter spell? > > Yes and for soeone with a classics degree (like Jo) its worse than a > Flint its a Blushmaker. The spell, however, is not *enervate*; it eNnervate. Spelling, in this case, *counts*. (I've posted about this spell's etymology before (12637), so I'll be repeating myself a tad here.) The spell 'ennervate' must be analyzed as combining a prefix en- with a root nerv (and a suffix -ate, either a pseudo-Latin 1st conj. pr. act. imperative 2 pl ending or an English verb-producing suffix). Unlike the prefix e-, en- is related etymologically to in- (from L. in- by way of Old French), and the form thus means 'put strength back in', the *opposite* of 'enervate', to 'take strength out'. JKR has (very cleverly) actually used the sound change outcomes of a (ps.-)Latin 'innervare' coming into English through Old French to obtain the correct Anglicized 'ennervate'. Not a Flint, nor a joke, but a very clever use of etymology, and absolutely correct. --jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jfaulkne/fan/hp.html (URL change!!) Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 15 15:18:59 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:18:59 -0000 Subject: Potions vs. Charms Message-ID: <9qeup3+4l14@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27677 Hogwarts students spend a great deal of time in Potions class. Apparently, they are not allowed to drop the subject. Time is spent carefully preparing ingredients, like methodically and manually slicing ginger roots. It is apparently dangerous, as Neville has melted six cauldrons, and solutions have been splattered from time to time. Snape thinks nothing of "testing" a potion on a toad or a student. But why bother with Potions? Charms (including spells, hexes, jinxes, and curses) are so much more handy. All you need is a wand and an incantation, and you're in business. A Potion requires a lot of tools and ingredients, time, a place to work, and a means by which to transport the potion. Potions certainly seem advantageous for the work Madam Pomfrey does, but in a hospital it is possible and convenient to have a diverse inventory of Potions for every conceivable malady. For the wizard's everyday needs, however, Potions seem to be a difficult, time-consuming means to an end. Besides, many Potions seem to duplicate Charms that we know exist in the wizarding world. There is the Swelling Draught, which seems just like the Engorgement Charm. There is the Confusing Concoction, which seems just like the Confundus Charm. There is Mrs. Scower's Magical Mess Remover and the Scouring Charm. There are a number of other examples of duplication, although admittedly there are Potions that do not seem to have a corresponding Charm (like Wolfsbane Potion). That made me wonder what really makes a Potion different from a Charm and therefore worth all the extra bother. I thought that maybe the difference between Potions and Charms might be that Potions are temporary, but Charms are permanent until a countercharm is used, but I'm not sure this works. Some spells and Charms need a countercharm to reverse the effects, but some don't, and we aren't told whether some Potions wear off or require an antidote. Veritaserum, perhaps, requires an antidote, because Dumbledore contemplates that Fudge will be able to question Crouch Jr. later. Crucio stops when the wizard stops performing the spell, whereas Stupefy requires a countercharm ("Ennervate"), and Impedimenta seems to wear off on its own. Could it be that a Potion will work either on the person who brewed it or a third party, but Charms don't often work on the person casting the Charm? It seems that, once a Potion is brewed, it will work on anyone who drinks it. There isn't any evidence (that I can think of) in which a wizard brews a Potion that will work for someone else but won't work for himself. For instance, Lupin tells Harry that Snape brews the Wolfsbane Potion because Lupin isn't a good Potion brewer, but that dialogue indicates that Lupin could brew the Potion himself if he had the skill. But will most Charms work on the wizard casting the Charm? I'm not so sure. If a wizard were depressed, could he cast a Cheering Charm on himself? Could a wizard commit suicide with Avada Kedavra? I can only think of a one Charm (apart from Transfiguration) that definitely changes the character of the wizard casting the Charm -- Bagman's Sonorus Charm (to magnify his voice). A few other Charms come close, like the Bubblehead Charm (that Cedric uses in the Second Task), the Shield Charm (that Harry doesn't master), and Disapparating. But these are different from Sonorus, because Sonorus actually changes something about Bagman (the volume of his voice), whereas the Bubblehead and Shield Charms just create a barrier for the wizard casting the charm. Disapparating doesn't change the wizard; it just moves him. Anyway, those are a few random thoughts about Potions vs. Charms. Does anyone have an opinion about what makes the study of Potions so important? Cindy (who has observed that there does not appear to be a good weight loss potion or charm) From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 15:19:47 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How Many Unregistered Animagi Are There Anyway? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011015151947.60700.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27678 --- Maxwell Simpson asks: > "HOW MANY UNREGISTERED ANIMAGI ARE THERE ANYWAY?!?" My guess; tons. I'm afraid the MOM is being frightfully naive if they really think their registered list is complete. So far we have four unregistered Animagi, (Sirius, Peter, James, Rita) and it seems to me a safe bet there are several more - not to mention an incalculable number of Animagi gone wrong padding, trotting or slythering about. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 15:31:26 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT to David In-Reply-To: <9qcve8+gvb1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011015153126.62590.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27679 --- dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote: > thinking that Californian Blake's 7 fans are far higher in the hierarchy of wierd... California *is* a weird place, no mistake, but at least one of the authors of 'Bizzaro 7' lives in Florida and if she doesn't qualify as *major* weird.... A former Californian and present Blakie. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From warhound at accessus.net Mon Oct 15 17:36:44 2001 From: warhound at accessus.net (WarMaster) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:36:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS Is The Least Favorite HP Book. Why? Message-ID: <044501c1559f$f5bc3d80$0c92cecf@warhound> No: HPFGUIDX 27680 I know this is an old topic and I enjoy reading everyone's insightful analysis of the differences between the HP books. My reason for having CoS as my least favorite book is because I almost got sick reading it aloud to my kids when we first got it. The incident with Ron vomiting slugs still makes me queasy. :P Gilderoy Lockhart put another bad taste in my mouth. Reading his dialogue aloud without putting the book down and saying, "Oh, puhleeze" was very hard. Beverly--(who just deleted about 400 HP4GU messages because she knew she would never be able to read them all and, as a result, is severely out of the loop.) - >> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote: >> > According to the HP Grownups polls, CoS is unquestionably the >least >> > favorite of the four books among people on this list. Out of 400 >> > responses, only 5% picked CoS as their favorite out of the HP >> series Out of 251 votes for least favorite book, CoS >> was >> > chosen as least favorite by 70%. >> > >> > Let's talk about this. What exactly is it that causes so many >> people >> > not to like CoS? Is it the characterization, the ending, the >plot, >> > something else? Can anyone put their finger on it? And if you >can >> > identify a gripe about CoS, can you think of a way to fix it? >> > >> > Laura (who owns 2 dog-eared copies each of PoA, GoF, PS/SS, but >> only >> > one practically new copy of CoS) > From tabouli at unite.com.au Mon Oct 15 16:04:25 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:04:25 +1000 Subject: Moody Mandrakes, Dapper Dumbledore, fatherhood Message-ID: <002601c15593$28fce3a0$2d92aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27681 On Mandrakes: To all those lamenting the plight of the Mandrakes, hear hear. Once upon a time in a post far far away I mentioned that Mandrakes seem almost human and definitely sentient, and asked where Hermione was when their rights needed defending! (probably lying petrified in the hospital wing awaiting their slaughter, but never mind...). Time to whip up some S.P.A.M. badges (Society for the Protection of Autonomous Mandrakes). While we're delving into the past, instinct tells me that the worthy listmembers must have discussed this before, but what's the story with the battered relic that is Moody, Crouched or otherwise? In a society where they can regrow bones overnight and phoenix tears can heal deadly snake bites, and amputees can be given magic silver hands, why on earth is Moody a one-legged, one-eyed flying purple mass of scar tissue? I can see the handiness of having a roving eye (so to speak), but a wooden leg for the Ministiy's star Auror seems pretty rough when the Dark Lord's Snivelling Sidekick gets a new silver hand. And as for the facial wounds, couldn't they have fixed him up good as new with Eau d'Oeuil Phoenix? Great stuff on the Harry's composite father figure, Amanda. On the subject of the Dumbledore component... David: >> Perhaps it is true that high heeled purple boots are just what is needed to convince the average prospective parent in seconds that Dumbledore has that aura of headmasterly responsibility - anything is possible in the WW. But I prefer to think that D loves dressing up, and likes others to share this innocent pleasure.<< Him and me both. I approve. I think that anyone with the a sense of humour that whimsical and twinkling is bound to let it extend into his dress sense. As for vanity (that deadly sin that people have been defending him from charges of), come on, let the man have a well-rounded personality. We already have one One Personality Fits All Evil Overlords major power out there - if we also had a bland, all-good, all-wise, all-white-bearded Good Overlord with no personal flaws allowed it would be insufferable. Leslie: > I think that you are absolutely correct. I think, for most of us, thinking back on our fathers gives us a nice loving squishy feeling. (...) > In talking with a friend of mine years ago, he told me that men "find themselves" through first rebelling against their father figure. Through this rebelling against their fathers, they end up coming to a deeper understanding of manhood and fatherhood< Oooo, now this is interesting. I've long been concocting theories about this very subject (but then again, I concoct theories about everything), though I suspect that OT-chatter is the place to explore them. Briefly, I have observed at least three men having violent backlashes against their fathers in their late teens (one of these men being my brother), rejecting everything he stands for, can't bear the thought of ending up like him, etc.etc., who all miraculously came around by their mid-twenties, having not only abandoned their resentment, but also completely imitating and affirming behaviour from their fathers which they previously condemned! Fascinating... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From frodoyoda at aol.com Mon Oct 15 16:03:27 2001 From: frodoyoda at aol.com (frodoyoda at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:03:27 -0000 Subject: Hermione as a Prefect (was: Prefect Predictions) Message-ID: <9qf1cf+9chb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27682 >> Some other observations: >> >> -The most lopsided vote is for Hermione (94.2% in the Gryffindor >>girl poll). Draco's is almost as high, though a few people are >>holding out for "none of the above" for the Slytherin boy. I'd love >>to know who, if anyone, the none-of-the-above voters have in mind. >>I'd also love to hear from Lavender and Parvati partisans about why >>they think Hermione won't get the nod. > >Although I voted for Hermione, she seems almost *too* much of a sure >thing. I'd love to see her as prefect (and then Head Girl), but I >wouldn't be surprised if she isn't chosen as a prefect because of >her >prior history of rulebreaking. Or she may lose her position as a > >prefect (or lose the position of Head Girl) due to some sort of >rulebreaking gone wrong. I'd expect that since Voldemort has >returned to his full powers, things will clamp down at Hogwarts. >And >infractions will be dealt with harshly. And as much as I'd hate to >see it, that could end up hurting Hermione. I'm more concerned with the possibility of a rift in the trio that Hermione's possible Prefect-hood could cause. I can not see Harry's and Ron's trouble-making days ending(and would be very disapointed if I did), but I also can't see Hermione slacking in her Prefect-duties in order to save her friends. We saw in the Firebolt-incident in PoA that Hermione does not hesitate to do what she thinks is right, regardless of the consequences for Harry, Ron, or herself(she must've known this would upset Harry and Ron). If Hermione caught Harry and Ron in some future escapade, and there fore punished them, what effect would this have on their friendship? Drawing again on the Firebolt incident, I can see a prolonged fight. Much as I would hate to see Hermione in this postion, it would make for an interesting conflict. Well, that's my take on it, anyway. What do others think? Molly From vderark at bccs.org Mon Oct 15 16:17:28 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:17:28 -0000 Subject: etymology of "ennervate" / quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qf26o+djo3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27683 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner wrote: > > The spell, however, is not *enervate*; it eNnervate. Spelling, in this > case, *counts*. Thanks, Jen, I was trying to respond but I couldn't find my research source. I know I have it that way on the Lexicon, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out which of my many dictionaries and etymology references had told me exactly that. What we are seeing here is JKR's cleverness with language, in this case filtered through her experience as a French teacher. It is safe to say that she knows French better than Latin. This is apparent in a few other etymologies too. This is a classic example of why we can keep discussing and talking about the Harry Potter books: everything is so rich and deep. By the way, here's a delightful quote that appeared in print over the weekend, in an interview with Robbie Coltrane (Hagrid in the film): "It's literature, it is about what we are like, about deeper things than just telling stories. It's just that it's aimed at an audience who don't drink a lot of chardonnay." I wonder how Coltrane knew that I don't drink chardonnay? I'm a Piesporter man myself. Well, that and peppermint schnapps. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From john at walton.vu Mon Oct 15 16:56:50 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:56:50 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: "Mailbox Full" messages: please don't resend! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27684 Hi again folks, Just a quick note to let those of you who have posted today (and have noticed that you've got "Mailbox Full" messages) know what's going on. [And for those of you who haven't, here's an explanation of why there have been nearly-identical multiple posts :D] We guess that one of our listmembers has gone away for a few days and her email box has clogged up. Why Yahoo didn't put her on "bouncing" (ferret?) status we don't know. Anyway, should this happen again, please note that the rest of us receive the messages you send...so there's no need to resend them when you get a Mailbox Full message. Cheers m'dears, --John, Moderator with Rock #47 __________________________________ The HPforGrownups Moderator Team MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Please read our Admin Files, particularly the VFAQ and Netiquette files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 17:12:16 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:12:16 -0000 Subject: Champions' Abilities (was: winner of Tri-Wizard Cup) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qf5dg+rgum@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27685 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susanna Luhtanen" wrote: > >Also, poor Cedric wasn't able to duck Crucio because Krum sneaked > >up on him from behind. > > Not the Crucio - The Avada Kedavra cast by Pettigrew/Voldemort. > (After Cedric and Harry shared the Cup). (Extra Task to determine > the Winner)-Cedric was hit - Harry managed to duck behind the > gravestone... No, the original post was correct. During the competition proper (what happened in the graveyard doesn't count) Crouch/Moody put the Imperius Curse on Krum, and while under his control, Krum put the Cruciatus Curse on Diggory. This is not Diggory's fault; he had no reason to suspect that Krum would curse him. Krum, on the other hand, could not withstand Imperius, which is something you'd think the school champion from Durmstrang might be able to do. OTOH, Fleur wasn't any great shakes either. Considering that these folks are the best in their schools (as judged by the Goblet of Fire) it's no wonder a great deal of cheating used to go on in the Tournament. It's also little wonder that there used to be fatalities, especially before there was a minimum age requirement. --Barb From maryblue67 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 18:49:27 2001 From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scabbers In-Reply-To: <1002362189.1634.59178.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20011015184927.15683.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27686 Hey there!! i hope this comment is interesting enough to be in the list, although it's not a bid deal... I was thinking on how non-native english readers may not catch all the details and meanings in the books, and also how in the translations some of the meanings are lost. i'm a native spanish speaker, although i read the books in english. I had also the first one in spanish, and i read the lists with the names and terms that change in the translations, and some of them really are not fun as in English. Well, but what i wanted to say has to do with Scabbers. i just finished reading "Little Women", a book i have been wanting to read for a long time, although i had seen the movie. In the book, there is kind of pet rat in the attic where Jo reads, and it's name is Scabbers. I, of course, laughed at it first. But then i thought, would Scabbers be a typical rat name? I mean, you know how there are names that are used a lot for dogs or cats, is it also for rats? or is it just a coincidence? It's not an important question, it's just a comment on how some little things can easily be missed if the knowledge of the language and culture is not that of a native or almost native. ===== Maryblue ---------------------------------------------------------- "Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling in love" - Eistein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Oct 15 18:20:16 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:20:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <114135196635.20011015112016@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27687 Monday, October 15, 2001, 6:02:38 AM, Susanna Luhtanen wrote: SL> I think the competition for House-Cup as well as for Quidditch-Cup wasn't in SL> force that year. Didn't you notice that in the whole PoA... GoF you mean of course. :) SL> ... no teacher took or SL> gave points to any house - even though some students were given detention? Just for the record, Snape takes points from Gryffindor in two scenes: After his infamous "I see no difference" remark on Hermione's teeth, and in the scene when he reads the Skeeter article out loud to the class. But this could be attributed to force of habit -- I think Snape just likes *saying* the phrase "X points from Gryffindor!" That said, I agree with the rest of your argument. -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Oct 15 19:10:28 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:10:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potions vs. Charms In-Reply-To: <9qeup3+4l14@eGroups.com> References: <9qeup3+4l14@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <103138208855.20011015121028@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27688 Monday, October 15, 2001, 8:18:59 AM, Cindy C. wrote: CC> But will most Charms work on the wizard casting the Charm? I'm not CC> so sure. If a wizard were depressed, could he cast a Cheering Charm CC> on himself? Could a wizard commit suicide with Avada Kedavra? I think that many (if not all) Charms require a certain amount of emotion behind them to generate the "magical energy". For example, Avada Kedravra only works if you have an overwhelming hatred for your target.* Potions, on the other hand, can and must be brewed using cold, dispassionate calculation. (Right up Snape's alley!) CC> I can CC> only think of a one Charm (apart from Transfiguration) that CC> definitely changes the character of the wizard casting the Charm -- CC> Bagman's Sonorus Charm (to magnify his voice). This may be possible because Bagman feels strong emotions about the QWC or the TWT. Perhaps we would have found it impossible to amplify his voice in the pub with the goblins breathing down his neck... -- Dave * From which I deduce that Crouch Jr. hated spiders as much as Ron. And given that, wouldn't it be interesting if Moody *loved* spiders -- Then Dumbeldore might have known right off the bat that Crouch-Moody was an impostor, if only he had sat in on that first lecture!! From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Oct 15 18:21:44 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:21:44 -0000 Subject: Neville's Potential/Wizardly Cheating (was:Teacher vs. student help on tasks In-Reply-To: <9qens5+4r5b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qf9fo+aj6j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27689 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Babs Elf AKA Barb" There seems to be a tradition not only of cheating > in the wizarding world, but of turning a blind eye to it, as though > the people who did not cheat (or win) wish they had the nerve to do this, and so cannot in good conscience penalize those who had the chutzpah to actually do it. I think a tacit acceptance of cheating comes with the pointed hat: a certain degree of low cunning is as much a part of traditional/literary wizarding as the long grey beard. Merlin deceives Gorlois, and even Gandalf, who is a much nobler order of being than Merlin or anyone in the Potterverse, pulls a fast one now and then. He tricks the trolls to keep them arguing till sunrise, for example. So it makes sense that a competition to determine the best wizard would allow for a bit of fiddle. And of course, Rowling is satirizing the Olympics and other manifestations of the sports cult and pointing out their shortcomings. Pippin From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 19:49:52 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: <20011015184927.15683.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011015194952.1373.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27690 I could be wrong but I get the impression that being able to throw the Imperious Curse off in minutes, as Harry does, is highly unusual. Judging from the cases of Crouch Jr. and Sr. it would seem most wizards have to build up resistance over a period of time. Krum of course never had a chance to do so, (the poor boy probably feels wretched about attacking Cedric, especially as he can never now apologize to him). I believe Crouch Jr. kept Moody unconscious for the most part specifically in order to keep him from working up the necessary resistance to break the curse. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 15 19:51:59 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:51:59 -0000 Subject: Dark Injuries (WAS Moody Mandrakes, Dapper Dumbledore, fatherhood) In-Reply-To: <002601c15593$28fce3a0$2d92aecb@price> Message-ID: <9qfeov+n2l9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27691 Tabouli wrote: > While we're delving into the past, instinct tells me that the worthy listmembers must have discussed this before, but what's the story with the battered relic that is Moody, Crouched or otherwise? In a society where they can regrow bones overnight and phoenix tears can heal deadly snake bites, and amputees can be given magic silver hands, why on earth is Moody a one-legged, one-eyed flying purple mass of scar tissue? I can see the handiness of having a roving eye (so to speak), but a wooden leg for the Ministiy's star Auror seems pretty rough when the Dark Lord's Snivelling Sidekick gets a new silver hand. And as for the facial wounds, couldn't they have fixed him up good as new with Eau d'Oeuil Phoenix? I think there has been some discussion of why Moody is saddled with all of these hideous injuries. One view was that injuries from dark magic can't be cured easily or at all. Evidence of this exists in canon. Dementor kisses can't be cured (and dementors seem plenty dark to me). The Longbottoms can't be cured. On the other hand (pun intended), Wormtail's injury in GoF was cured because it was not an injury due to dark magic. Harry's cut in the graveyard in GoF was cured because it was a manual injury, not a magical one. Harry's curse scar has not been repaired. But then again, how are Hermione's teeth cured if the injury was the result of a curse? Cindy (also wondering why Madam Pomfrey is referred to as the school's "matron" in one of the books) From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 20:07:47 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:07:47 -0000 Subject: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects Message-ID: <9qffmj+vt85@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27692 Okay, so in response to Amy's prefect polls, I thought I would map out, in my opinion, how each potential combination of the trio as prefects might affect their relationship with each other. Undoubtedly this has been done before, but as this is my speculation and no one else's, hopefully it will not prove too repetitive. Please note that I am covering literally every possible trio combination, not just the ones that seem most likely or the ones that appear to fit the rules for choosing prefects. For example, from what we have seen so far and from similar real life school systems, it is highly unlikely that there is any way for two boys from the same house to become prefects. But as I know of no conclusive contradictory canon evidence, it still warrants inclusion, for sake of completeness and, as always in this twisty unpredictable world, just in case. If you protest vehemently to these cases that do not seem to fit what we know of how prefects are chosen, feel free to skip them. I am trying to evaluate the reactions of the trio based on my current understanding of their characters. I am not trying to pass any value judgment on whose reactions are "best". That is immaterial and for me to put such a spin on this would contaminate the honesty of the assessment. In any case, I love all of these characters and I hope that no one interprets any of my comments as insultatory to them. I am also not trying to pass much judgment on which possibility would be the "best" for JKR to employ, although I do have opinions along these lines. It also depends greatly on whether it is JKR's intention to make the prefect situation a source of conflict and growth, pure humor, or just a "fact" as part of the new year to be afterward relatively ignored in consequence (at least consequences for the trio's relationship). Since there are similarities of result for some of the possibilities, I will try not to repeat them where they can be inferred. For example, the possibility of Hermione dealing with disappointment, also leads to the possible end results of what she might learn from the experience. So I will mention the disappointment in a repeat case, but not the identical lesson. Now then, "The Possibilities": 1) Hermione becomes a prefect, Harry and Ron do not In my opinion, the easy way out--the situation with the least conflict. Hermione does not have to deal with disappointment. Ron will claim to not care about the fact he didn't become a prefect, but secretly will care as it furthers his sense of non-distinction. But his disappointment will be heavily muted and consoled by the shared circumstance with Harry, who, incidentally, will not mind at all his own not being chosen. 2) Harry becomes a prefect, Hermione and Ron do not Hermione will convince herself that she is okay with this circumstance, but will truly be miffed at Harry's selection, mainly as extension of her own dismay at not being chosen. After overcoming any possible resentment toward Harry, which probably won't last long, she will have to deal with some of her own insecurity and have to cope with not being first for once. Ron will be jealous of yet another case of Harry achieving the sort of distinction Ron desires and might express this mostly as the surprise and unfairness of Hermione's not being selected. Neither Hermione nor Ron will find particular consolation in the fact that the other was not chosen to be a prefect either. Harry will be upset and depressed at his two friends reaction and their temporary alienation of him, which he perceives to be yet another case of fame and distinction being something that follows him, but that he does not desire, though several people seem to fault him for having it. 3) Ron becomes a prefect, Harry and Hermione do not Harry will be happy for Ron and consoling to Hermione, and thus stuck in the middle. Hermione will make no strong effort to conceal her dismay, choosing to express it as the incredulity and unfairness of Ron being chosen when she was not. She may or may not direct this anger at Ron--perhaps choosing instead to direct it at the prefect-electing body. Her annoyance will cloud her true feelings for a while, which, as in case two, stem from having to deal with her own insecurities and the high standard of excellence she sets for herself that demands the recognition and approval of others. She will resulting learn to find more of her own self-worth not external to herself, but within. Ron will be so thrilled at being chosen (an effect that, though he would be loathe to admit it, will probably be amplified by the fact that Harry and Hermione were not), may lead to him saying something incredibly stupid and unfeeling, not with bad intent, but with the effect of incurring Hermione's wrath in the first place. It is possible this will result in him learning to be more empathetic, a skill which is currently not one of his strengths. He will undoubtedly find that the happiness that being a prefect gave him was artificial and will discover that distinction in the eyes of others is not really what he needs. 4) Harry and Hermione become prefects, Ron does not This will confirm all of Ron's worst suspicions about his own lack of distinction and worth and might easily result in some temporary alienation from the trio. His depression is likely to manifest as anger, especially towards Harry, because he expected to a certain extent that Hermione would be chosen. In other words, a major rehash of the GOF argument, but with slightly different underpinnings. Harry, for his part, may react in a more understanding fashion than he did during the GOF argument whereas Hermione may react in a less understanding fashion because she is now more directly involved. 5) Harry and Ron become prefects, Hermione does not Hermione will grow extremely depressed and her insecurities will come to a visible surface for Harry and Ron to see. She may or may not react in anger, trying hard to act as though she is okay with the situation. She will find it more difficult to be mad at both of them than she would have found it if only one were chosen, because it will no longer be possible to rationalize it as somehow the fault of the person who was chosen so much as her fault for *not* being, which of course is her true and great fear. So if she does experience anger, it may be directed elsewhere like the prefect-electing body. More likely she will react in some other way, perhaps becoming reclusive or allowing her performance in class to suffer or becoming less confident in her own abilities at a critical moment. Ron again has the possibility of saying something unwise and setting off Hermione. Harry will be sympathetic, but relatively helpless to improve the situation. 6) Ron and Hermione become prefects, Harry does not Harry may find, much to his surprise, that because *both* his friends were chosen he does feel left out, even though all through his Hogwarts years he has not sought this kind of distinction. It is not likely to be a heavily emotional response, but a subtle one, that perhaps helps him further learn from and cope with his own destiny, and how it is seperate and apart from the kind of destiny others have. Or he may simply react in pleasure for the sake of his friends and their resulting happiness (which would also have been the outward appearance of the former anyway). Hermione may express a certain degree of shock at Ron's being chosen, but it will not call into question her self-worth, because she was chosen too. Ron will be extremely pleased to have achieved distinction and may even lord it over Harry unintentionally, but Harry will not react very badly, although it may be the catalyst to cause him to realize he doesn't really wish to be left out. 7) Harry, Ron and Hermione all become prefects Assuming this is even possible, this is the prefect equivalent of OBHWF, and therefore will create no apparent conflict, just an artificial and inconsequential happiness. 8) None of the trio become prefects Harry and Ron will react well for their own part. Ron will be secretly coping with his own desire to have been a prefect, but outwardly will only express surprise and dismay that Hermione wasn't chosen. It may eventually come out that he too was hoping for such a distinction. Hermione will still have to deal with a strong sense of disappointment that she was not chosen. Although Harry and Ron were also not chosen, this will prove very little consolation to her, although their additional support (as opposed to just shared circumstances) may be more helpful and readily accepted. Thoughts? -Luke From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 15 19:58:19 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:58:19 -0000 Subject: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: <20011015194952.1373.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qff4r+4evt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27693 Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > I could be wrong but I get the impression that > being able to throw the Imperious Curse off in > minutes, as Harry does, is highly unusual. Judging > from the cases of Crouch Jr. and Sr. it would seem > most wizards have to build up resistance over a period > of time. > Krum of course never had a chance to do so, (the > poor boy probably feels wretched about attacking > Cedric, especially as he can never now apologize to > him). > I believe Crouch Jr. kept Moody unconscious for > the most part specifically in order to keep him from > working up the necessary resistance to break the > curse. > I agree, and I also wonder if resisting the Imperius curse is easier if you are standing there aware that it is coming. On each occasion that Harry threw it off, he had some inkling that it might be coming. Even Voldemort points his wand and says "Answer Me. Imperio" or some such. I imagine Krum had no clue that the curse was coming. Moody was outside the maze, firing curses through the hedge. Anyway, I also think you're correct that Crouch Jr. kept Moody unconscious so he wouldn't resist the curse. It makes you wonder why Wormtail/Voldemort didn't think of this. Unless Wormtail was supposed to Stun Crouch Sr. and just "forgot." Cindy Cindy From joym999 at aol.com Mon Oct 15 20:38:26 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:38:26 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #16 reminder Message-ID: <9qfhg2+72lq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27694 This week's contest is still open. Submit your entry by email to HP4GUCon at aol.com or to the address above. Entries will be accepted until I check my email Friday morning (usually around 11am EST). Here's the contest: Among Dumbledore's accomplishments, according to his Chocolate Frogs card, is that he discovered the Twelve Uses of Dragon's Blood. According to an interview with whatshisname who wrote the movie screenplay, one of those 12 uses is Oven Cleaner. Some of the other 12 are, undoubtedly, ingredients for various potions. What do you think? Come up with one, two, three, or all twelve uses of dragon's blood, along with an explanation, if you like. (Feel free to ignore the oven cleaner possibility since it is not canon.) I will, as usual, start things off with a smartass (yet timely) suggestion: One of the 12 uses of dragon's blood is an antidote to anthrax poisoning. (Because wizards have been dealing with Voldy for so long, they are a lot better prepared than us muggles at dealing with terrorism.) --Joywitch From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 20:42:51 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:42:51 -0000 Subject: Dark Injuries (WAS Moody Mandrakes, Dapper Dumbledore, fatherhood) In-Reply-To: <9qfeov+n2l9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfhob+sh42@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27695 > But then again, how are Hermione's teeth cured if the injury was the > result of a curse? Draco's little "cursing fun" isn't really Dark Magic, is it? I mean, after only fourteen & probably something they learned in class... -Megan (anal enough to notice Daniel Radcliffe's eyes are not green in the production shots/stills) From tillrules at aol.com Mon Oct 15 20:44:14 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:44:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects Message-ID: <66.15cd4e6d.28fca49e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27696 In a message dated 10/15/2001 1:33:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, caliburncy at yahoo.com writes: >>>>1) Hermione becomes a prefect, Harry and Ron do not In my opinion, the easy way out--the situation with the least conflict. Hermione does not have to deal with disappointment. Ron will claim to not care about the fact he didn't become a prefect, but secretly will care as it furthers his sense of non-distinction. But his disappointment will be heavily muted and consoled by the shared circumstance with Harry, who, incidentally, will not mind at all his own not being chosen. This is my guess and preference. It sets up some nice mini dramas What if Hermione catches them doing something wrong?) without resorting to having this be a major issue (see below). << 4) Harry and Hermione become prefects, Ron does not This will confirm all of Ron's worst suspicions about his own lack of distinction and worth and might easily result in some temporary alienation from the trio. His depression is likely to manifest as anger, especially towards Harry, because he expected to a certain extent that Hermione would be chosen. In other words, a major rehash of the GOF argument, but with slightly different underpinnings. Harry, for his part, may react in a more understanding fashion than he did during the GOF argument whereas Hermione may react in a less understanding fashion because she is now more directly involved. >> Personally, I really hope JKR does not go this route. I think she's really done the Ron's jealous of Harry angle to death. I'd really like to think that Ron adds more to the mix than just being jealous of Harry. If she does got his route, I'd take this as a pretty big indicator that she's going to at least flirt with the idea of turning Ron bad. Continually harping on his jealousy would seem to idnicate that he'd eventually be tempted to break his loyalty to Harry. Especially if she also adds that Ron sees Harry insulating himself into his family (Harry's parents at the challenge were Molly & Bill for example). Having Ron eventually reject Voldemort owuld be a shining moment for him, but his even being tempeted would devalue the character for me. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Oct 15 20:45:45 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:45:45 -0000 Subject: Scabbers In-Reply-To: <20011015184927.15683.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qfhtp+r55o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27697 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maria wrote: > Hey there!! > > i hope this comment is interesting enough to be in the > list, although it's not a bid deal... > Well, but what i wanted to say has to do with Scabbers. i > just finished reading "Little Women", a book i have been > wanting to read for a long time, although i had seen the > movie. In the book, there is kind of pet rat in the attic > where Jo reads, and it's name is Scabbers. Actually, Jo's rat is named Scrabble, which is similar, but not quite iidentical. - CMC "Jo! Jo! Where are you?" cried Meg at the foot of the garret stairs. "Here!" answered a husky voice from above, and, running up, Meg found her sister eating apples and crying over the Heir of Redclyffe, wrapped up in a comforter on an old three-legged sofa by the sunny window. This was Jo's favorite refuge, and here she loved to retire with half a dozen russets and a nice book, to enjoy the quiet and the society of a pet rat who lived near by and didn't mind her a particle. As Meg appeared, Scrabble whisked into his hole. Jo shook the tears off her cheeks and waited to hear the news. - Little Women, Chap. 3 From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Oct 15 20:46:47 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:46:47 -0000 Subject: Matron (was Dark Injuries) In-Reply-To: <9qfeov+n2l9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfhvn+sptc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27698 Cindy wrote: > Cindy (also wondering why Madam Pomfrey is referred to as the > school's "matron" in one of the books) Matron is just what the nurse at boarding schools used to be (and for all I know still is) called. Of course, Madam Pomfrey is not simply a nurse, she is also the magical equivalent of a physician. Read Billy Bunter, or Jennings, and you will meet this character. David From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Mon Oct 15 20:53:19 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 15 Oct 2001 20:53:19 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1003179199.198.78206.w68@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27699 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /Admin Files/Your_Name_in_Lights Uploaded by : joym999 at aol.com Description : How to make your name appear on the messages you post You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/Your_Name_in_Lights To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, joym999 at aol.com From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Oct 15 20:54:44 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:54:44 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Personal Replies should go Off-list Message-ID: <3BCB4D14.30807@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27700 Hi -- This is just a reminder that any reply that is directed at one individual listie (or a small group of listies) should be sent to personal email addresses, not to the entire group. Thanks, Penny Magical Moderator Team From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 15 20:55:12 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:55:12 -0000 Subject: Father figures revisited & McGonagall In-Reply-To: <9qd890+9t9t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfifg+b8rj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27701 > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > We should not omit Sirius Black, the man legally and morally > > appointed to stand *in loco parentis* > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bennyhillsangel at y... wrote: > I think your assessment is right on the mark. I have a few different > ideas about Sirius, but I'm not sure if I'm just reading too much > into the character. I enjoyed your remarks about Sirius, and I hope it is not too late to jump in on this discussion. First, I've always been struck about how Sirius keeps the focus on Harry in the Shrieking Shack scene. When Harry objects to killing Pettigrew, I half expected Sirius to say, "To heck with that. I'm not avenging James and Lily. I'm killing Pettigrew to pay him back for what he did to me." But he never says anything like that, which shows that his devotion to Harry is deep indeed. I do wonder what Sirius would do now if he met Pettigrew in a dark alley. I think Sirius' loyalty to Harry on this point would save Pettigrew again. Second, I have observed that, despite having McGonagall as a teacher for 4 years, Harry doesn't have much of a relationship with her. He doesn't ask her for help with his problems, really. I would have expected her to be a mother figure by now, but Molly Weasley has really stepped into that role. Sure, McGonagall fulfills the "nagging" (for lack of a better word) part of a mother's role, but there hasn't been a great deal of counsel from McGonagall yet. There is still time, I suppose. Cindy From vheggie at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 20:59:23 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:59:23 -0000 Subject: Matron (was Dark Injuries) In-Reply-To: <9qfhvn+sptc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfinb+8frj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27702 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote: > Cindy wrote: > > > Cindy (also wondering why Madam Pomfrey is referred to as the > > school's "matron" in one of the books) > > Matron is just what the nurse at boarding schools used to be (and for > all I know still is) called. Of course, Madam Pomfrey is not simply > a nurse, she is also the magical equivalent of a physician. > > Read Billy Bunter, or Jennings, and you will meet this character. > > David It's also what one would call a 'head nurse', or 'ward sister' in a hospital in the UK. It's a pretty standard name for a senior nurse, in any institution. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 15 21:00:06 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:00:06 -0000 Subject: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects In-Reply-To: <66.15cd4e6d.28fca49e@aol.com> Message-ID: <9qfiom+cuf9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27703 Luke wrote: > > >>>>1) Hermione becomes a prefect, Harry and Ron do not > > In my opinion, the easy way out--the situation with the least > conflict. Hermione does not have to deal with disappointment. Ron > will claim to not care about the fact he didn't become a prefect, but > secretly will care as it furthers his sense of non-distinction. But > his disappointment will be heavily muted and consoled by the shared > circumstance with Harry, who, incidentally, will not mind at all his > own not being chosen. > > This is my guess and preference. It sets up some nice mini dramas What if > Hermione catches them doing something wrong?) without resorting to having > this be a major issue (see below). > Can I ask a background question? I thought prefects are in their 6th year. Isn't Cedric a sixth-year prefect (I recall he was a 5th year in PoA)? Are we entirely sure that someone in Harry's year will be a prefect? Cindy (thinking it would be exciting if someone -- anyone -- got expelled or at least suspended from Hogwarts) From usergoogol at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 20:59:21 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (Maxwell Simpson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:59:21 -0400 Subject: Why CoS is the least favorite Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27704 Although I like the book, I think the main problem is that 1, 3, and 4 have things which HP doesn't. 1) The introductory book is excellent. It introduces everything about Harry, it has the Mirror of Erised, and I think Voldie was very intriguing in thise one. 3) It has Lupin, a fan-favorite, it has Boggarts, it has Hogsmeade, it has a guy breaking out of jail, it has a surprising and complex ending, and it has Sirius Black in his less criminal form, who is a very nice guy, once you get to know him. Plus it really tells alot of the back story, and everyone loves that. 4) The newest, it has the World Cup, it has far more Weasleys than any other previous book, it has the Triwizard Competition, and it has the rebirth of Voldemort. Book two is nice, it introduces the Weasley family, Tom Riddle, and House Elves. All three are very important. It introduces Penelope Clearwater, who isn't particually important, but she could be. It has Lockhart, who _I_ found amusing (I voiced him with a cross between Troy McLure of the Simpsons and another pompous person. Very deep, very loud.) It also explains why Hagrid was kicked out of Hogwarts. From mariannayus at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 21:19:43 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom's Theme Song: Me and My Ego (was: Chamber of Secrets/Diary) In-Reply-To: <9qeort+l7fe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011015211943.15568.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27705 --- Babs Elf AKA Barb wrote: > I think Tom Riddle's reasons for continuing to > target Harry are far > less convoluted (and more egoistic) than one might > think *snip* Also, Tom is taking on more and more physical form. I had thought that once he kills Harry (during the conversation with whom he gets more and more corporeal) he will finally be "alive"/functional as a person because of the life-force he sucked out of Ginny. If that is so, he has more than one reason to kill Harry. 1. Harry wants to rescue Ginny. If Ginny is rescued and weaned off the diary his own coming-alive process will end. He might end altogether if diary is destroyed. 2. Once he is alive, Tom would probably follow the Voldemort path (take over the world a la evil overlord), and from Harry's previous history, young Potter could be dangerous to those plans: a. he is a goody-goody that tries to get rid of evil overlords (1yr old, PS/SS), so might cause future problems b. he has the power to cause evil overlord's (Tom's in this case) downfall, since he managed to do so with Voldie, Tom's older self. c. Voldie thought Harry needed to be dead, and since Tom and Voldie share the same brain, and were on the similiar path, Voldie's decision to kill HP, even though Tom's doesn't know LV's reasons, has to carry weight. (he's a "predessesor-in-interest" in legalese :)) 3. Tom's revengeful. Harry caused harm to his future self. So of course he has to die. Intersting thought: if TMR regained his body, would that mean that there are two Voldies running around: one the 16yr version, and another the psycho brain in Albania? Marsha/Marianna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 15 21:30:07 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:30:07 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dark Injuries (WAS Moody Mandrakes, Dapper Dumbledore, fatherhood) In-Reply-To: <9qfhob+sh42@eGroups.com> References: <9qfeov+n2l9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011015222923.00a020b0@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27706 At 21:42 15/10/01, you wrote: >-Megan (anal enough to notice Daniel Radcliffe's eyes are not green in >the production shots/stills) Megan - I read somewhere that Daniel tried the green contact lenses and they didn't work out. They are going to sort in with CGI I think... Martin Hooper AIM:martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caliburncy at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 22:02:22 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:02:22 -0000 Subject: The Year of the Prefect (was Re: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects) In-Reply-To: <9qfiom+cuf9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfmde+oas2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27707 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Can I ask a background question? I thought prefects are in their > 6th year. Isn't Cedric a sixth-year prefect (I recall he was a 5th > year in PoA)? Are we entirely sure that someone in Harry's year > will be a prefect? No, Percy is made a prefect during his fifth year at Hogwarts (which is the year of PS/SS). So prefects are chosen during their fifth year, as far as we know. Head Boy and Girl, incidentally, are chosen from the seventh years. -Luke P.S. If you are looking for the e-sweat, it's right here: --> <-- Unfortunately it dried rapidly and is no longer visible, which is why I added the handy arrows to indicate its presence. I keep my promises. P.P.S. If you are wondering what on earth that postscript is in reference to, see message 27344. From dkgrubb at earthlink.net Mon Oct 15 22:14:39 2001 From: dkgrubb at earthlink.net (dkgrubb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:14:39 -0000 Subject: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects In-Reply-To: <9qffmj+vt85@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfn4f+7n9k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27708 Luke wrote: > > 6) Ron and Hermione become prefects, Harry does not > > Harry may find, much to his surprise, that because *both* his friends > were chosen he does feel left out, even though all through his > Hogwarts years he has not sought this kind of distinction. It is not > likely to be a heavily emotional response, but a subtle one, that > perhaps helps him further learn from and cope with his own destiny, > and how it is seperate and apart from the kind of destiny others have. > Or he may simply react in pleasure for the sake of his friends and > their resulting happiness (which would also have been the outward > appearance of the former anyway). Hermione may express a certain > degree of shock at Ron's being chosen, but it will not call into > question her self-worth, because she was chosen too. Ron will be > extremely pleased to have achieved distinction and may even lord it > over Harry unintentionally, but Harry will not react very badly, > although it may be the catalyst to cause him to realize he doesn't > really wish to be left out. I adore Luke's analysis of practically anything Harry Potter, thanks. I just wanted to add a point about the case of "Harry not a prefect, Hermione and Ron are prefects". Groups of three friends are usually unstable, often finding themselves aligned as two against one with the "one" constantly changing. In PoA, Hermione is the one on the outs for a good part of the book, and in GoF, Ron is excluded for at least a few weeks. It does not seem too unlikely that in OoP, Harry will finally find himself to be the third in "three's a crowd", either because the other two are prefects, or because the other two have developed another interest not including him. I prefer the prefect situation to the romantic one, because I just cannot buy the H-R ship. Debra From szabinasnape at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 23:24:19 2001 From: szabinasnape at yahoo.com (Szabina Snape) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] winner of Tri-Wizard Cup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011015232419.19523.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27709 Cindy wrote: > >I'm not sure I can give Harry (or anyone) credit > for winning the cup Also, poor > >Cedric wasn't able to duck Crucio because Krum > sneaked up on him from > >behind. Susanna wrote: > Not the Crucio - The Avada Kedavra cast by > Pettigrew/Voldemort. (After > Cedric and Harry shared the Cup). Szabina throws her 2 knuts in here: Sorry, Susanna, but Cindy is right. Actually, both of you are right. Cindy is right because Krum came up behind Cedric and put Crucio on him while they were in the maze. Harry came along and stunned Krum to get the Crucio off Cedric. Susanna is right because after the Krum/Crucio incedent Cedric and Harry shared the cup resulting in Cedric getting Avada Kedavra from Voldemort. Szabina ===== >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 23:25:29 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:25:29 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Dan's Eyes (WAS: Dark Injuries) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011015222923.00a020b0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <9qfr99+5evg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27710 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Martin Hooper wrote: > At 21:42 15/10/01, you wrote: > >-Megan (anal enough to notice Daniel Radcliffe's eyes are not green in > >the production shots/stills) > > Megan - I read somewhere that Daniel tried the green contact lenses and > they didn't work out. They are going to sort in with CGI I think... > > > Martin Hooper I do know this, I had, however, observed that the eyes were NOT put through the green filter on production & promo shots where he poses as Harry Potter. Just being nit-picky :-D. -Megan (immensely enjoying that now she is not the most obsessed person she knows) From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 23:31:56 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:31:56 -0000 Subject: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects In-Reply-To: <9qfn4f+7n9k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfrlc+f6ro@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27711 Debra wrote: > > I just wanted to add a point about the case of "Harry not a prefect, > Hermione and Ron are prefects". Groups of three friends are usually > unstable, often finding themselves aligned as two against one with the > "one" constantly changing. In PoA, Hermione is the one on the outs for > a good part of the book, and in GoF, Ron is excluded for at least a few > weeks. It does not seem too unlikely that in OoP, Harry will finally > find himself to be the third in "three's a crowd", either because the > other two are prefects, or because the other two have developed another > interest not including him. I prefer the prefect situation to the > romantic one, because I just cannot buy the H-R ship. A challenge on JKR's part, since Harry is Number One Center of Attention in the series (POV). Will be difficult to align with impending plotline of Voldie's rise to power?? Maybe. From our perspective, Harry is the beginning--the link--the power in the friendship. It all stemmed from him. It will interesting to see a situation where Harry feels left out, since he's usually pretty good with being involved in the middle of everything. He doesn't seem to be the jealous sort, and while I favor R/H, the idea of the FITD theory just makes me cringe. I just don't see Harry being jealous if the other two become prefects--he's had enough of his own success--PLUS, I don't know if he really desires it in the first place. Personally, the only realistic situation where I can plausibly see Harry being/feeling on the outs is if Ron and Hermione develop a "thing"...in that case, it would be more like a "third wheel". -Megan, thinking that as long as HP stays focused on the core, a little romance could be fun From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 15 23:37:27 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:37:27 -0000 Subject: The Year of the Prefect (was Re: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects) In-Reply-To: <9qfmde+oas2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfrvn+qme1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27712 Cindy wrote: > > Can I ask a background question? I thought prefects are in their > > 6th year. Isn't Cedric a sixth-year prefect (I recall he was a 5th > > year in PoA)? Are we entirely sure that someone in Harry's year > > will be a prefect? > Luke, with much sweaty, intense concentration and hard work, wrote: > No, Percy is made a prefect during his fifth year at Hogwarts (which > is the year of PS/SS). So prefects are chosen during their fifth > year, as far as we know. Head Boy and Girl, incidentally, are chosen > from the seventh years. > Yes, but in PoA (Grim Defeat), Cedric is specifically noted to be a fifth year, and there is no mention that I recall of his being a prefect. But he's a prefect as a sixth year when he meets his untimely death in GoF. Is it possible that they make prefects in the fifth year, but once a prefect, always a prefect unless promoted to Head Boy or Girl? Cindy (not breaking an e-sweat -- yet) From szabinasnape at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 23:43:58 2001 From: szabinasnape at yahoo.com (Szabina Snape) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] THEORY: Could Mrs. Norris be Filch's sister? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011015234358.32626.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27713 --- Maxwell Simpson wrote: > Theory: Some have made theorized that Mrs. Norris > may be an animagus (of course, some people may have > theorized that Harry Potter is a reverse animagus > whos really a spider monkey.) and that theory is > reasonable. But here's a theory. Mrs. Norris could > be Filch's sister, in animagus form. There's more. > According to my theory, Filch is ALSO an animagus, > and the two use their powers to catch troublemakers. Filch is a squib. Therefore, he cannot be an animagus. While Dumbledore has shown instances of being slow on the uptake (he was fooled by the fake Mad-Eye Moody for an entire school year), I don't think he could be fooled for years and years into thinking someone had no magical powers when they were actually running around his school in animagus form. ===== >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 00:01:38 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:01:38 -0000 Subject: What Did Dumbledore Know And When Did He Know It? Message-ID: <9qftd2+61eb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27714 The more I think about Dumbledore's behavior, the stranger it seems. He is supposed to be a wise and powerful wizard, right? But if you consider the number of times he is fooled by someone or something, it starts to add up. He was fooled into leaving for London. He was fooled (perhaps) about Lockhart's abilities. He was fooled by Crouch's impersonation of Moody. He was fooled by the Goblet of Fire incident. He was fooled with the Cup-as-Portkey incident. He was fooled (sort of) into letting Crouch's soul get sucked out. He was fooled for years by Mooney, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. Then there are the times when Dumbledore is just out of the loop. Like the existence of the Marauder's Map, the many passages into the castle, Sirius letting Pettigrew be secret-keeper. And the times he appears to be a bit careless (leaving the Pensieve out when he knew Harry would be in his office). All of that (coupled by this recent bit about him being vain) is making me wonder. Is he letting all of these things happen for a reason, or should he re-think the part about being so trusting? Cindy (wanting to believe the best about Dumbledore) From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 00:25:12 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:25:12 -0000 Subject: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects In-Reply-To: <9qfrlc+f6ro@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qfup8+cjuf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27715 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: > Debra wrote: > > It does not seem too unlikely that in OoP, Harry will finally > > find himself to be the third in "three's a crowd", either because > > the other two are prefects, or because the other two have > > developed another interest not including him. I prefer the > > prefect situation to the romantic one, because I just cannot buy > > the H-R ship. > > A challenge on JKR's part, since Harry is Number One Center of > Attention in the series (POV). [snip] He doesn't seem to > be the jealous sort, and while I favor R/H, the idea of the FITD > theory just makes me cringe. I just don't see Harry being jealous > if the other two become prefects--he's had enough of his own > success--PLUS, I don't know if he really desires it in the first > place. I think Luke's scenario #4 is far more likely (Harry and Hermione as prefects, Ron not) because I just can't buy Ron as a prefect. I think it is true, however, that Harry probably doesn't particularly WANT to be a prefect, just as he didn't want to be a Parseltongue or a Triwizard Champion. This will probably be yet another burden he has to bear, and he will wind up on the outs with BOTH of his friends at various times because of it: Hermione will probably nag at him about his prefect duties, which he will neglect/badmouth, and Ron will be grouchy about not being able to do things like use the prefects' bathroom. For Harry this will probably be a lose-lose situation. --Barb From dkewpie at pacbell.net Tue Oct 16 00:34:30 2001 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:34:30 -0000 Subject: Newcomer + Book 5 prediction Message-ID: <9qfvam+bia3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27716 Hi everyone, I'm a new Harry Potter fan (so late ^^;;) and I'm happy to find a group with all these interesting discussion. I don't know if someone talked about this before already (I'm sure there is, I've been going thru. the archieve roughly for the past week too), about Book 5, after reading many J.K. Rowling interview, I'm pretty much confident to say that the person who's a "Harry's fan" will die is Dumbledore. I totally don't see the point of killing off minor characters like Ginny or Colin and such, because similar situation already happen in GoF, the impact of "the death of a minor chara" has already been done. So in Book 5, a very major chara will die and it'll be Dumbledore. and I read an interview that J.K. Rowling said book 5 will be "the end of an era", which strengthen the idea of Dumbledore's death (the end of the "dumbledore as headmaster era"). I think Dumbledore probably predicted his death already and told the teachers. Probably he told Snape to do something after his death (like become the next Headmaster? no...McGonagall will be the next Headmaster and Snape might replace McGonagall?) anyways, I would like to know if anyone agress with me. From margdean at erols.com Tue Oct 16 01:11:08 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:11:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 5 prediction References: <9qfvam+bia3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BCB892C.C10679EE@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27717 Kewpie wrote: > I don't know if someone talked about this before already (I'm sure > there is, I've been going thru. the archieve roughly for the past > week too), about Book 5, after reading many J.K. Rowling interview, > I'm pretty much confident to say that the person who's a "Harry's > fan" will die is Dumbledore. I totally don't see the point of killing > off minor characters like Ginny or Colin and such, because similar > situation already happen in GoF, the impact of "the death of a minor > chara" has already been done. So in Book 5, a very major chara will > die and it'll be Dumbledore. and I read an interview that J.K. > Rowling said book 5 will be "the end of an era", which strengthen the > idea of Dumbledore's death (the end of the "dumbledore as headmaster > era"). I think Dumbledore probably predicted his death already and > told the teachers. Probably he told Snape to do something after his > death (like become the next Headmaster? no...McGonagall will be the > next Headmaster and Snape might replace McGonagall?) > anyways, I would like to know if anyone agress with me. I agree with you. I think Rowling has been preparing both Harry and the reader for this for the past two or three books: having Dumbledore show his age, having him warn Harry that he (Dumbledore) won't always be around to save the day, etc. From a storytelling standpoint, it's almost essential that Dumbledore be taken out of the picture soon so that Harry will be forced to stand on his own two feet as a hero. There's a =reason= why the Wise Old Man is so routinely disposed of (at least temporarily) in story after story: Merlin, Gandalf, Obi-Wan Kenobi, they're all too much of a crutch for the main character to be allowed to stick around indefinitely. It's possible that Rowling will break with tradition in this matter, but if so, she'll still have to deal with that problem somehow. I also wouldn't be at all surprised to see Snape succeeding Dumbledore as Headmaster. Let Lucius Malfoy think it's =his= idea . . . and then let him find out how wrong he is . . . >:) --Margaret Dean From caliburncy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 01:53:53 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 01:53:53 -0000 Subject: The Year of the Prefect (was Re: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects) In-Reply-To: <9qfrvn+qme1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qg3vh+a86b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27718 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Yes, but in PoA (Grim Defeat), Cedric is specifically noted to be a > fifth year, and there is no mention that I recall of his being a > prefect. But he's a prefect as a sixth year when he meets his > untimely death in GoF. Indeed, but this does not necessarily mean he wasn't one during his fifth year either. It wasn't really relevant information at the time (it doesn't matter for purpose of a Quidditch match whether he is a prefect or not) and hence we only learn his year, position, and captaincy. For a random "BTW, he's also a prefect, for future reference" note to have been included would seem a bit silly. It's a good idea with exposition to give the minimum amount of information necessary for the reader to fully comprehend what's going on at that particular moment. Otherwise, we'd get overloaded. Anyway, I'm sure you realize all that. So from Percy's case, we know at least some prefects are chosen in their fifth year. It is a likely assumption that *all* are, because otherwise, if some are chosen in fifth year and some not until their sixth then one has to account for why not choose them all the same year? The only possibility I can think of is under the following circumstance: Say the school wants X number of prefects total. Every year they lose Y number of prefects, who were seventh year prefects the year prior. Hence, they replace this vacancy with Y number of newly assigned prefects who they take from either the fifth or sixth year, with no regard to or interest in quotas (i.e. Z number of people from a particular year or house). But there is some mildly suggestive canon evidence that there is a sort of quota, so the above seems unlikely. Therefore, I assume that all the prefects are chosen when they reach the fifth year and continue on from there. > Is it possible that they make prefects in the fifth year, but once a > prefect, always a prefect unless promoted to Head Boy or Girl? Oh, I see. Here's the real point of confusion, I think. Yes, I assume that all prefects chosen in their fifth year automatically carry over in their duties for their sixth and seventh year. I don't think they're re-chosen every year, and I don't think that their prefect duty only lasts for a single year. And the two students who become Head Boy and Girl just take on additional responsibilities (though in actuality the difference may be purely nominal and honorary). Of course, I'm entirely the wrong person to answer this question, being American, and therefore having no life experience with a similar system. But when I first joined this topic was being discussed and, if I recall correctly, this seemed to be in keeping with what most of the British members had experienced in their own schools. Anyone care to correct me, please, if necessary? Thanks, -Luke From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Oct 16 02:08:43 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:08:43 +1000 Subject: Moody Mandrakes, Dapper Dumbledore, fatherhood Message-ID: <002701c155e7$7bee36a0$b1856fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27719 Just got a message telling me that this message bounced, so I'm resending it. Apologies for the repeat if it actually did arrive... On Mandrakes: To all those lamenting the plight of the Mandrakes, hear hear. Once upon a time in a post far far away I mentioned that Mandrakes seem almost human and definitely sentient, and asked where Hermione was when their rights needed defending! (probably lying petrified in the hospital wing awaiting their slaughter, but never mind...). Time to whip up some S.P.A.M. badges (Society for the Protection of Autonomous Mandrakes). While we're delving into the past, instinct tells me that the worthy listmembers must have discussed this before, but what's the story with the battered relic that is Moody, Crouched or otherwise? In a society where they can regrow bones overnight and phoenix tears can heal deadly snake bites, and amputees can be given magic silver hands, why on earth is Moody a one-legged, one-eyed flying purple mass of scar tissue? I can see the handiness of having a roving eye (so to speak), but a wooden leg for the Ministiy's star Auror seems pretty rough when the Dark Lord's Snivelling Sidekick gets a new silver hand. And as for the facial wounds, couldn't they have fixed him up good as new with Eau d'Oeuil Phoenix? Great stuff on the Harry's composite father figure, Amanda. On the subject of the Dumbledore component... David: >> Perhaps it is true that high heeled purple boots are just what is needed to convince the average prospective parent in seconds that Dumbledore has that aura of headmasterly responsibility - anything is possible in the WW. But I prefer to think that D loves dressing up, and likes others to share this innocent pleasure.<< Him and me both. I approve. I think that anyone with the a sense of humour that whimsical and twinkling is bound to let it extend into his dress sense. As for vanity (that deadly sin that people have been defending him from charges of), come on, let the man have a well-rounded personality. We already have one One Personality Fits All Evil Overlords major power out there - if we also had a bland, all-good, all-wise, all-white-bearded Good Overlord with no personal flaws allowed it would be insufferable. Leslie: > I think that you are absolutely correct. I think, for most of us, thinking back on our fathers gives us a nice loving squishy feeling. (...) > In talking with a friend of mine years ago, he told me that men "find themselves" through first rebelling against their father figure. Through this rebelling against their fathers, they end up coming to a deeper understanding of manhood and fatherhood< Oooo, now this is interesting. I've long been concocting theories about this very subject (but then again, I concoct theories about everything), though I suspect that OT-chatter is the place to explore them. Briefly, I have observed at least three men having violent backlashes against their fathers in their late teens (one of these men being my brother), rejecting everything he stands for, can't bear the thought of ending up like him, etc.etc., who all miraculously came around by their mid-twenties, having not only abandoned their resentment, but also completely imitating and affirming behaviour from their fathers which they previously condemned! Fascinating... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 02:07:13 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:07:13 -0000 Subject: The Year of the Prefect In-Reply-To: <9qg3vh+a86b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qg4oh+rmdm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27720 Luke wrote: > > So from Percy's case, we know at least some prefects are chosen in > their fifth year. It is a likely assumption that *all* are, because > otherwise, if some are chosen in fifth year and some not until their > sixth then one has to account for why not choose them all the same > year? The only possibility I can think of is under the following > circumstance: > Then why, in GOF when Fred and George are SIXTH years, does Mrs. Weasley mention something to the drift of "I see they haven't made you two prefects YET"? Does this imply that students can be selected beyond fifth year for prefects, or does Mrs. Weasley simply have wishing thinking? Correct me if I misquoted. -Megan, thinking that if Fred & George were prefects at her school, life would be much more enjoyable From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 02:39:08 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:39:08 -0000 Subject: The Year of the Prefect In-Reply-To: <9qg4oh+rmdm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qg6kc+9rlp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27721 > Luke wrote: > > > > So from Percy's case, we know at least some prefects are chosen in > > their fifth year. It is a likely assumption that *all* are, because > > otherwise, if some are chosen in fifth year and some not until their > > sixth then one has to account for why not choose them all the same > > year? Megan wrote: > Then why, in GOF when Fred and George are SIXTH years, does Mrs. > Weasley mention something to the drift of "I see they haven't made you > two prefects YET"? Does this imply that students can be selected > beyond fifth year for prefects, or does Mrs. Weasley simply have > wishing thinking? > > Correct me if I misquoted. Well, OK. After much painstaking and unbelievably timeconsuming combing of individual lines of text of GoF and PoA (which I dutifully report as evidence that researching this was very, very hard work), the reference you mention is in PoA (The Leaky Cauldron): "I don't doubt that," said Mrs. Weasley, frowning suddenly. "I notice they haven't made you two prefects." So I think Luke must be correct (as usual) about the way this works. But thanks for the assist, Megan. In a way, you're right, though. If you want to be macabre about it, Cedric's murder opens up an extra prefect position for OoP, which could be filled by a Weasley twin, I suppose. Cindy From bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 02:59:13 2001 From: bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com (bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:59:13 -0000 Subject: Father figures revisited & McGonagall In-Reply-To: <9qfifg+b8rj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qg7q1+b7hl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27722 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > > We should not omit Sirius Black, the man legally and morally > > > appointed to stand *in loco parentis* liked the "fireside chat" scene as well> > I enjoyed your remarks about Sirius, and I hope it is not too late to > jump in on this discussion. Thanks :) > First, I've always been struck about how Sirius keeps the focus on > Harry in the Shrieking Shack scene. When Harry objects to killing > Pettigrew, I half expected Sirius to say, "To heck with that. I'm > not avenging James and Lily. I'm killing Pettigrew to pay him back > for what he did to me." But he never says anything like that, which > shows that his devotion to Harry is deep indeed. You know, I never thought of that! Sirius really is devoted to Harry in more ways than one. He really is an incredible would-be parent for him, isn't he? I do wonder what > Sirius would do now if he met Pettigrew in a dark alley. I think > Sirius' loyalty to Harry on this point would save Pettigrew again. > He could always shapeshift, kill Pettigrew while in his Padfoot form, and blame it on the dog :P > Second, I have observed that, despite having McGonagall as a teacher > for 4 years, Harry doesn't have much of a relationship with her. He > doesn't ask her for help with his problems, really. I would have > expected her to be a mother figure by now, but Molly Weasley has > really stepped into that role. Sure, McGonagall fulfills > the "nagging" (for lack of a better word) part of a mother's role, > but there hasn't been a great deal of counsel from McGonagall yet. > There is still time, I suppose. I think McG. is just meant to be a strict, schoolmarmish authority figure, and little else. You're right on about Mrs. Weasley, IMO. I think Harry's pretty much adopted her at this point. I could discuss this until the cows come home... -Benny Hill's Angel. From bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 03:05:41 2001 From: bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com (bennyhillsangel at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 03:05:41 -0000 Subject: Book 5 prediction In-Reply-To: <3BCB892C.C10679EE@erols.com> Message-ID: <9qg865+qlpp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27723 Just as long as it's not Hagrid (Harry's original magical friend, the man who held him as a baby, brought him to safety and returned him into the wizarding world again, etc.), I'll deal with anyone else's death in 5. Anybody at all but Hagrid. Not poor, sweet Hagrid. -BHA From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 03:16:14 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:16:14 -0400 Subject: points in GF and in general (was Interhouse . . .) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27724 There are actually several cases of points being rewarded and subtracted in GoF. I compiled them during a bout of LOON-Binns Disease, a chronic condition that flares up now and then. student: Ron and Harry teacher: Snape points taken: -50 combined reason: shouting at Snape notes: In defense of Hermione. "It was lucky . . . their voices echoed so much in the stone corridor, for in the confused din, it was impossible for [Snape] to hear exactly what they were calling him. He got the gist, however." They also get detention (pickling rats' brains, GF19). ref: GF18 student: Fawcett (Hufflepuff girl) teacher: Snape points taken: -10 reason: smooching in the rosebushes notes: Is that against the rules? ref: GF23 student: Stebbins (Ravenclaw boy) teacher: Snape points taken: -10 reason: smooching in the rosebushes notes: see above ref: GF23 student: Hermione teacher: Snape points taken: -10 reason: discussing her fascinating social life in class ref: GF27 student: Hermione teacher: give you three guesses and the first two don't count points taken: -10 reason: reading magazines in class (Witch Weekly) notes: he also reads the article aloud, to the Slytherins' amusement ref: GF27 The Quidditch Cup and House Cup are undoubtedly two different things. "Gryffindor house, meanwhile, largely thanks to their spectacular performance in the Quidditch Cup, had won the House Championship for the third year running" (PA 22). Interestingly, although the Quidditch Cup is awarded on the basis of total scores as well as win/loss record (or even instead of--it's unclear), a win in Quidditch seems to garner a house a flat number of points toward the *House* Cup: 50 points for a win, period. I base the former on the race for the Cup in PA, in which Gryffindor needs to win by a certain margin in order to capture the Cup--it isn't enough to win more matches than any other team (since G and S each end up with three victories, it may be the case that total score is only used as a tiebreaker). The flat-number observation, on the other hand, comes from CS 11, in which Percy tells Harry that G's win gave them 50 points toward the House Cup. It seems unlikely that G's victory was by a margin of 50 points, meaning they were down by 100 when Harry caught the Snitch: the game in question is the one with the rogue bludger (CS 10), and although Slytherin is winning by 60 points the last time we hear the score, it seems unlikely that the scoring would continue to be that uneven once Fred and George return to defending the rest of the team. It's impossible to be sure, though. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------- The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that stood alone in the middle of the grounds. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 03:31:47 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 03:31:47 -0000 Subject: points in GF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qg9n3+i2cs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27725 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > There are actually several cases of points being rewarded and subtracted in > GoF. Ahem. Subtracted: yes, awarded: no. Now that I'm done correcting my own posts I will return you to scheduled programming. Amy Z From deeblite at home.com Tue Oct 16 06:10:54 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:10:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: points in GF In-Reply-To: <9qg9n3+i2cs@eGroups.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011016021031.022c4ec0@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27726 At 03:31 AM 10/16/01 +0000, you wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > There are actually several cases of points being rewarded and >subtracted in > > GoF. > >Ahem. Subtracted: yes, awarded: no. > >Now that I'm done correcting my own posts I will return you to >scheduled programming. So you're saying Snape's just a loony who's taking away points that weren't even awarded to begin with? ^_^ -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 06:27:24 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 Message-ID: <20011016062724.39512.qmail@web14909.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27727 I am still convinced that Harry will be made a prefect. This is based upon three things - (1) Harry's the hero. This is the weakest of the reasons by itself. (2) He needs to easily get into the Prefect Bathroom. This is a bit stronger. I base this on the speculation that the PB is the room that is more important than we know yet. (3) Draco will be made Slytherin Prefect. This is my strongest reason. Snape is very likely going to make Draco a prefect. If Draco is a prefect and Harry isn't, that will cause a whole lot of problems. It will give a tremendous advantage to Draco. McGonagall will make Harry one if for no other reason than to balance things out. So the only way Harry won't be a prefect is if Draco isn't made one. Then all bets are off. Does anybody think Draco won't be appointed one? Marcus __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From catlady at wicca.net Tue Oct 16 06:27:45 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 06:27:45 -0000 Subject: Moody (no longer Mandrakes, Dapper Dumbledore, fatherhood In-Reply-To: <002601c15593$28fce3a0$2d92aecb@price> Message-ID: <9qgk11+oajn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27728 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > While we're delving into the past, instinct tells me that the > worthy listmembers must have discussed this before, but what's the > story with the battered relic that is Moody, Crouched or otherwise? > In a society where they can regrow bones overnight Yes, it was discussed before. I seem to recall that one suggestion is Moody's 'constant vigilance' --- he refuses to trust any mediwizard or anyone to put a Charm on him, to brew a potion that he'll drink, or even to make a prosthesis for him; therefore he makes do with only the healing that he can do for himself and only the prosthesis that he can make for himself. Except for the dogdamn Eye... I must study the Pensieve scenes in GoF to check when Moody acquired each of his unusualnesses. If the Eye was first, he might have been more trusting then, or it might have been made by the only person he trusted, who was killed or disabled later on.... From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 07:12:55 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:12:55 -0000 Subject: Dark Injuries (WAS Moody Mandrakes, Dapper Dumbledore, fatherhood) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011015222923.00a020b0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <9qgmln+umcc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27729 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Martin Hooper wrote: > At 21:42 15/10/01, you wrote: > >-Megan (anal enough to notice Daniel Radcliffe's eyes are not > >green in the production shots/stills) > > Megan - I read somewhere that Daniel tried the green contact lenses > and they didn't work out. They are going to sort in with CGI I > think. I believe I read that too. FWIW, last Halloween, I went as Harry and used green contacts. As a non-regular contact wearer, I had to use eye drops to keep my eyes from turning fully bloodshot. Even though you can get plano (non- vision-altering) lenses, they still are tiring to wear. If the lenses they tried were like mine, they might not have been intense enough for the film. Most people didn't even notice mine.... ....Craig From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 16 10:39:31 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:39:31 -0000 Subject: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 In-Reply-To: <20011016062724.39512.qmail@web14909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qh2p3+8v1j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27730 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marcus wrote: > So the only way Harry won't be a prefect is if Draco > isn't made one. Then all bets are off. > Does anybody think Draco won't be appointed one? Well I thought prefects were decided by all the house heads so won't McGonagall, Flitwick or Sprout vote against Draco, being that he causes trouble all the time. Just my two sickles, Sofie From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Oct 16 11:04:51 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:04:51 -0000 Subject: Hermione as a Prefect (was: Prefect Predictions) In-Reply-To: <9qf1cf+9chb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qh48j+klid@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27731 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frodoyoda at a... wrote: snip > >Although I voted for Hermione, she seems almost *too* much of a sure > >thing. I'd love to see her as prefect (and then Head Girl), but I > >wouldn't be surprised if she isn't chosen as a prefect because of > >her > >prior history of rulebreaking. Or she may lose her position as a > > >prefect (or lose the position of Head Girl) due to some sort of > >rulebreaking gone wrong. I'd expect that since Voldemort has > >returned to his full powers, things will clamp down at Hogwarts. > >And > >infractions will be dealt with harshly. And as much as I'd hate to > >see it, that could end up hurting Hermione. > > I'm more concerned with the possibility of a rift in the trio that > Hermione's possible Prefect-hood could cause. I can not see Harry's > and Ron's trouble-making days ending(and would be very disapointed if > I did), but I also can't see Hermione slacking in her Prefect- duties > in order to save her friends. We saw in the Firebolt-incident in PoA > that Hermione does not hesitate to do what she thinks is right, > regardless of the consequences for Harry, Ron, or herself(she must've > known this would upset Harry and Ron). > If Hermione caught Harry and Ron in some future escapade, and there > fore punished them, what effect would this have on their friendship? > Drawing again on the Firebolt incident, I can see a prolonged fight. > Much as I would hate to see Hermione in this postion, it would make > for an interesting conflict. > Well, that's my take on it, anyway. What do others think? Hermione-as-prefect would be almost irresistable for me as an author, simply because of all the potential conflicts that could arise. Not only is there the probability that Hermione would be forced to decide to blow the whistle on some Harry/Ron escapade. There is also the possibility that things could get more tangled should JKR develop a case of raging teenage hormones for Hermione and one of the boys. I can see Hermione wanting to strictly enforce the rules in situations where she thinks that the potential rule-breaking is serious or dangerous, but I can also see Harry and Ron wheedling their way out of something, especially if they can convince Hermione that their intentions were good. Of course, if they wheedle, she lets them off and then discovers that they have lied to her, or only told her part of the story, then there is additional fodder for conflict among them. Marianne From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Tue Oct 16 11:09:38 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:09:38 -0000 Subject: Number of students - new information In-Reply-To: <9q6il9+62jr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qh4hj+pavl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27732 On the number of school days and consequent pattern of terms --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- "Blaise" wrote: > > The Leaky Cauldron has a link to the front pages of 'Premier' > > magazine. Other figures are: > > There are 278 days in a school year. (Steve)>Almost all of the information on that list is canon. The exceptions are the number of school days and the number of students. Well having been enervated over the Ennervate business and a thorough Lockhart of myself, some thoughts on school years lengths. School year equals 273 days Can I interpret that using British assumptions on `School Year'? In the absence of other indicators I suggest this is what Jo will have in mind especially as a parent. Broadly school year is the number of weeks a school is in session inclusive of weekends (ie not the number of teaching days). Holidays, including scheduled half-term breaks, are excluded from this day count. 273 days is 39 weeks. That implies three terms of 13 weeks with adjustments for specific start and finish dates and moveable feasts. Just for comparison look at my 13 year old Son's school year upcoming to see where holidays and so on might fit in. His Autumn term is 4 September to 20 December, One weeks half-term holiday 22 to 29 October. Total 14 weeks and 3 days around this half-term break (ie excluding the half-term days from the count) . This however includes a one week `book week' where he is free from timetabled classes and can negotiate with teachers to agree a personal projects and read up for this. Spring Term is 5 January to 28 March ? that is 10 weeks 6 days. An early Easter in 2002 ? in other years this term is longer and summer term shorter. One weeks half-term holiday 18 February to 25 February. Summer Term is 15 April to 25 July. Half term from 1 to 9 June Total 13 weeks 4 days. Lets see 14 plus 10 plus 13 is 37 times 7 is 259 plus the odd days (13) makes 272. Near enough to 273 days... That's the framework I would assume for Hogwarts. We don't hear about half-terms in the Wizarding world so maybe they shorten these and lengthen Christmas holidays for example but 273 days looks just fine. If the figure is actually Canon we can conclude? for example ? that Harrys Summer holidays are a lot shorter that people from other traditions might assume. Hooray! Edis From j.balfour at lmu.ac.uk Tue Oct 16 11:44:57 2001 From: j.balfour at lmu.ac.uk (Balfour, Julie [HES]) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:44:57 +0100 Subject: Ignorance Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27733 Forgive me, but I have seen this phrase a couple of times and don't know what it means - Deus Ex Machina - can anyone enlighten me, please? From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 12:12:48 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:12:48 -0000 Subject: Potions/Charms - Foolish AD - MM as Mother - Prefects Message-ID: <9qh880+klg7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27734 > Cindy (who has observed that there does not appear to be a good > weight loss potion or charm) There *is* a potion, but I don't recommend it: ipecac. Great observations. From your notes, it certainly seems as if there is no rule to distinguish what kinds of things one can do with a charm but not a potion, or vice versa. Potions can also bring about transfigurations, judging from Polyjuice and the unintended cat-transformation in CoS. Then, switching to another area of study altogether, there's gillyweed, which one would study in Herbology and effects a transfiguration. As in Muggle areas of study, things overlap and there are often different ways of approaching the same problem--like learning both woodworking and metalworking even though many of the things one learns and can do with the two skills overlap. Cindy also wrote: >And the times he > appears to be a bit careless (leaving the Pensieve out when he knew > Harry would be in his office) Though we may never know, I strongly suspect he made this particular "mistake" on purpose. He didn't know Harry was coming, but once Harry arrived he could have shut the cabinet, and didn't. As soon as I read Amanda's composite-father-figure post, especially the Snape part, I thought of McGonagall as a mother figure, again as the part of Mom that upholds the rules. She isn't going to hold Harry like a mother, as Molly does, but if you break motherhood into components, she definitely provides some of what he is missing. (In GoF especially, we do start see a softer side of MM as well, in her worry about Harry before the 1st and after the 3rd tasks.) One hesitates to add anything to a post as thorough as Luke's prefect analysis, but here are my thoughts on Ron as prefect. I don't know how the choice looks from the prefect-selection-board's point of view (probably better to go with someone well-behaved like Dean or Seamus), but from an author's point of view the possibilities are tremendous. Fred, George, and Ron tend to be allied against Percy and Percyishness, and it would create interesting tension between Ron and the twins for him to be prefect, especially since he would then outrank them. Because Ron is very ambivalent about achievements like this (wanting a distinction but also not wanting to be like Percy, nor a rule-keeper), there would be interesting internal conflict as well. As for conflict with Harry (here I'm assuming Prefect Ron = Nonprefect Harry), I think Ron might feel some even if Harry genuinely doesn't want to be prefect. He might even feel guilty, having been envious of Harry and now having a status that Harry lacks. And while Hermione is used to walking the line between being a good, rule-abiding kid and being Harry and Ron's best friend, Ron would be uncomfortable with that balancing act. How would he deal with Harry's breaking a rule? All in all, I think Ron would have to stretch to be a prefect, which makes him an intriguing authorial choice--it might be a good reason for the selection board to choose him also. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------- . . . Professor Flitwick went whizzing resignedly past them, landing on top of a large cabinet. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------------- From kidzero7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 12:42:54 2001 From: kidzero7 at hotmail.com (kidzero7 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:42:54 -0000 Subject: Newcomer + Book 5 prediction In-Reply-To: <9qfvam+bia3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qha0e+jf5o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27735 > I'm pretty much confident to say that the person who's a "Harry's fan" will die is Dumbledore. I totally don't see the point of killing off minor characters like Ginny or Colin and such, because similar situation already happen in GoF, the impact of "the death of a minor chara" has already been done. ** JK chooses her words wisely. Dumbledore does not qualify as "Harry's fan". If he was the intended subject of that hint, it would have been along the lines of "father figure" or "protector" or "sense of security". (as those all could have applied to Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin) No, take what JK said at face value. We're looking at Collin or Ginny at this point or some other character that fills the role of "fan". I'm leaning more towards Collin at this point as I believe JK is prepping us for a future Ginny&Harry 'romance'. >So in Book 5, a very major chara will die and it'll be Dumbledore. and I read an interview that J.K. Rowling said book 5 will be "the end of an era", which strengthen the idea of Dumbledore's death ** The "end of an era" could mean many things. But by definition it simply means, "the end of period of time identified by some prominent figure or characteristic feature" It is very possible that Dumbledore could die, but I'm not convinced by that quote that it will happen in Book 5. (Though I think it may happen in book 6 or 7. Book 5 seems too soon because of Dumbledore provides 90% if not all the backstory for the series. He has information and secerets that no one else has. This info will have to be revealed over time and I can't see this all happening in Book 5.) That quote could mean many things: - End of the peaceful times after Voldemort's 'death'. - End of the Dumbledore's Head-mastership at Hogwarts (due to death, resignation or being booted) - End of Hogwarts' traditions or existence. (ie. Quiditch, 4 Houses, House Cup Competition, Acceptance of all students, being able to teach at all, etc.) From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 16 12:53:50 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:53:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects References: <9qffmj+vt85@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BCC2DDE.8090808@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27736 Hi -- Luke strikes with yet another great analysis -- thanks Luke! > > I am also not trying to pass much judgment on which possibility would > be the "best" for JKR to employ, although I do have opinions along > these lines. It also depends greatly on whether it is JKR's intention > to make the prefect situation a source of conflict and growth, > pure humor, or just a "fact" as part of the new year to be afterward > relatively ignored in consequence (at least consequences for the > trio's relationship). I think this is the key component that we can't know -- what her authorial intentions are. It seems to me that it might depend on how much of the plot action is going to take place at Hogwarts, how time of the narrative will comprise a more-or-less typical Hogwarts school year. If the school year becomes atypical (say, for example, if most or all of the Slytherins don't return to Hogwarts), the prefect appointments may not be all that important. In that case, it may be more just "factual" information than a source of conflict or even humor. Just one more thing we can be very curious about (conflict, humor or just fact). > > 1) Hermione becomes a prefect, Harry and Ron do not > > In my opinion, the easy way out--the situation with the least > conflict. Agreed. It does, however, give us the most potential to perhaps learn more about Dean, Neville or Seamus though. > 4) Harry and Hermione become prefects, Ron does not > I agree with Barb that this scenario may be the combination with the greatest likelihood. I also cannot buy Ron being named a prefect & Harry not being named one. There's no basis for that particular choice as best I can see. I also can't really see the scenario where Harry is a prefect & Hermione isn't one. It seems to me that if Hermione *isn't* a prefect, then there's almost certainty that neither Harry nor Ron is either. > > 8) None of the trio become prefects > > Hermione will still have to deal with a strong sense of > disappointment that she was not chosen. Although Harry and Ron were > also not chosen, this will prove very little consolation to her, > although their additional support (as opposed to just shared > circumstances) may be more helpful and readily accepted. This seems somewhat likely to me also though, but I don't agree that Hermione will not find consolation in the fact that neither boy was chosen. I think she would probably assume that her close association with them affected her selection. Will this make her angry? I'm not sure -- there's been no mention of any specific longing to be a prefect (although Hermione does admire authority figures certainly so it can be inferred that this would be an honor she would like). As for Draco -- I assume he will be a prefect *if* he & the other Slytherins return to Hogwarts next year. In my mind, this is not a foregone conclusion. Will the DEs want their children returning to the tutelage of Dumbledore & all he represents? I'm anxious to see how this aspect of the upcoming conflict will play out. Penny From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 16 13:05:52 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:05:52 -0500 Subject: Book 5 predictions References: <9qha0e+jf5o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BCC30B0.9080309@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27737 Hi again -- kidzero7 at hotmail.com wrote: > > I'm pretty much confident to say that the person who's a "Harry's > fan" will die is Dumbledore. I totally don't see the point of killing > off minor characters like Ginny or Colin and such, because similar > situation already happen in GoF, the impact of "the death of a minor > chara" has already been done. > > ** JK chooses her words wisely. Dumbledore does not qualify > as "Harry's fan". If he was the intended subject of that hint, it > would have been along the lines of "father figure" or "protector" > or "sense of security". (as those all could have applied to > Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin) No, take what JK said at face value. Actually, I would argue that JKR chooses her words carefully. She has also been known to be a bit misleading in chat responses through carefully-chosen words. I would say that "fan" is not limited to just Colin or Ginny but a broader term that could apply to any range of characters (but clearly not Snape!). BTW, can anyone please cite the source for this information (that JKR has said that a death in Book 5 will be a particular fan of Harry) -- I can't find it in any of the interviews I've accessed. The thing about at least one of the deaths in Book 5 is that it is a death that JKR said would "half-crucify" her to write (I'm not sure Ginny or Colin fits that bill myself). I don't think it's wise to assume that only *one* character will die in the next book either. She has said that more deaths are coming, so I don't know why we continue to speculate as though there's only one death per book. There will be a war going on ... casualties will likely exceed one death per book. > looking at Collin or Ginny at this point or some other character that > fills the role of "fan". I'm leaning more towards Collin at this > point as I believe JK is prepping us for a future > Ginny&Harry 'romance'. Can't resist -- how exactly is she "prepping" us for a H/G romance, given that Ginny has had very very very little on-screen time & development as a character? Ginny isn't even mentioned after the Yule Ball scene when we see her dancing with Neville as best I recall. Nah ... sorry but I fall into the camp that H/G is the ship with the least likelihood of happening. > > >So in Book 5, a very major chara will die and it'll be Dumbledore. > and I read an interview that J.K. Rowling said book 5 will be "the > end of an era", which strengthen the idea of Dumbledore's death > > ** The "end of an era" could mean many things. Actually, GoF was the book that JKR identified as the "end of an era" (see Entertainment Weekly -- Sept 7 2000 interview). OoP is thus the beginning of a new era. Penny From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Oct 16 13:20:44 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:20:44 +1000 Subject: Bathtub delights, Dumbledore's demise, quote for the day Message-ID: <002401c15645$5d971880$a692aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27738 Eep, sorry about the double posting - that'll teach me to resend things without checking my digests first... Marcus: > He needs to easily get into the Prefect Bathroom. This is a bit stronger. I base this on the speculation that the PB is the room that is more important than we know yet.< Hey, if I went to Hogwarts, I think I'd be an exemplary student from Day 1 just to up my chances of using that bathroom! As someone who has had a lifelong fantasy of a hot, pure water bath big enough to swim in, that Prefect Bath with its multicoloured (another thing that brings me joy) bath additives sounds just wonderful... Margaret: > There's a =reason= why the Wise Old Man is so routinely disposed of (at least temporarily) in story after story: Merlin, Gandalf, Obi-Wan Kenobi, they're all too much of a crutch for the main character to be allowed to stick around indefinitely.< Yup. Of course, we don't know how long Jo will give the Big D... maybe the "scar" on the last page of Book 7 will be the map of the London Underground on Dumbldore's corpse in a glass-topped coffin... Quote for the day: "I should have known!" said Lavender tragically. "Do you know what day it is? ... The sixteenth of October!" Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 13:15:10 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:15:10 -0000 Subject: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 In-Reply-To: <20011016062724.39512.qmail@web14909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qhbsu+leuk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27739 Marcus wrote: > I am still convinced that Harry will be made a > prefect. This is based upon three things - > > (1) Harry's the hero. This is the weakest of the > reasons by itself. Agreed. > (2) He needs to easily get into the Prefect Bathroom. > This is a bit stronger. I base this on the > speculation that the PB is the room that is more > important than we know yet. It actually might be more interesting if someone else (say Hermione) is prefect and Harry has to convince her to break the rules to let him use the bathroom. More conflict, more tension. Indeed, the GoF Prefect Bathroom scene in The Egg And The Eye had tension because we were a bit worried Harry might get caught, in his birthday suit, no less. Watching Harry The Prefect just saunter into the bathroom in OoP, where he has every right to be, might not be very interesting. > > (3) Draco will be made Slytherin Prefect. This is my > strongest reason. Snape is very likely going to make > Draco a prefect. If Draco is a prefect and Harry > isn't, that will cause a whole lot of problems. It > will give a tremendous advantage to Draco. McGonagall > will make Harry one if for no other reason than to > balance things out. > I think it is would be a lot more fun if Draco has power over Harry due to Draco's Prefect status. If they're both Prefects, then the balance of power is exactly the same as it was in the first four books. But if Draco is a prefect and Harry is not . . . oooh, the possibilities are so delicious. How demeaning it would be if Draco could send Harry back to his dorm when he was prowling around after hours. By the way, can Prefects take points away from all students or just members of their own house? I seem to recall Percy taking points from Harry and Ron in CoS. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 13:27:22 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:27:22 -0000 Subject: Splintered Hogwarts (WAS Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects) In-Reply-To: <3BCC2DDE.8090808@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qhcjq+4kpj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27740 Penny wrote: > > Luke strikes with yet another great analysis -- thanks Luke! Agreed! > > It seems to me that it might depend on how > much of the plot action is going to take place at Hogwarts, how time of > the narrative will comprise a more-or-less typical Hogwarts school year. > As for Draco -- I assume he will be a prefect *if* he & the other > Slytherins return to Hogwarts next year. In my mind, this is not a > foregone conclusion. Will the DEs want their children returning to the > tutelage of Dumbledore & all he represents? Penny, you raise an interesting idea. I hadn't considered that the composition of the student body or staff could shift dramatically in OoP. For instance, if Dumbledore is ousted (as I think he will be), then what would prevent him from forming a rival school, or perhaps tutoring the few loyal students willing to leave with him at some other location (perhaps Lupin's hut/cave/rock/house)? Alternatively, as you mention, would the Malfoys leave and start a rival school? This could really get interesting. I would certainly welcome a completely different structure for the next three books, just to decrease the chance that they'd wind up similar to the first four. Cindy (wondering who would get custody of the sorting hat) From frances at forever.u-net.com Tue Oct 16 13:49:30 2001 From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:49:30 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and Sirius Black Message-ID: <9qhdta+98fs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27741 Hi. I'm just listening to PoA and hadn't realised how much Crookshanks protects Sirius. Any thoughts on whether Crookshanks used to be Sirius' cat? Frances From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 13:58:00 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:58:00 -0000 Subject: Ginny Weasley (WAS Book 5 predictions) In-Reply-To: <3BCC30B0.9080309@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qhed8+krf0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27742 Penny wrote: > > The thing about at least one of the deaths in Book 5 is that it is a > death that JKR said would "half-crucify" her to write (I'm not sure > Ginny or Colin fits that bill myself). > Can't resist -- how exactly is she "prepping" us for a H/G romance, > given that Ginny has had very very very little on-screen time & > development as a character? Ginny isn't even mentioned after the Yule > Ball scene when we see her dancing with Neville as best I recall. Nah > > > Excellent observations, Penny. I apologize if this has been discussed to death, but I find myself quite perplexed by the minimal character development of Ginny. At this point, I feel we have a good picture of Percy, Fred, George and Ron. Despite the tiny on-screen time given to Charlie and Bill, I still think I have a decent picture of both of them, and I'm looking forward to a lot more. Ginny, though. I can't get my arms around her at all, even though she has been in all four books and was pivotal in one of them. Even compared to other minor characters like Lee Jordan and Neville, Ginny somehow comes off as a bit wooden. The other Weasleys can be described in a word or two. Percy is "pompous"; Charlie is "nice and athletic"; Bill is "cool"; the twins are "jokesters"; Ron is "trying to stand out" (among other things), for instance. This doesn't seem to work with Ginny. Maybe she is "shy", but that isn't a very interesting character trait all by itself. And by GoF, she really isn't shy anymore. I wonder if this means that JKR just has more difficulty writing and connecting with her female characters, or if Ginny has no real personality for some plot-related reason (some connection to Voldemort). I don't mean to start us again on the "HP Doesn't Have Good Female Characters" discussion again, really. I just wish I had a better understanding of why Ginny is the way she is, particularly since (in my experience) a likely character trait for a youngest girl with six older brothers might be "tough." Maybe Colin Creevy provides some insight. He, too, isn't very well developed and isn't interesting (to me, anyway), despite his presence in three books. But he and Ginny do have something in common. They both are taken with Harry's celebrity well before they have come to know him as a person. Harry, however, displays great patience for Ginny's behavior (pretending not to notice how nervous she is around him), whereas he displays much less patience with Colin and actively avoids him in CoS and PoA. Cindy (hoping that Ginny and the Creevy brothers get either more development or less screen time) From kidzero7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 14:38:01 2001 From: kidzero7 at hotmail.com (kidzero7 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:38:01 -0000 Subject: Book 5 predictions - GINNY and HARRY In-Reply-To: <3BCC30B0.9080309@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qhgo9+7atl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27743 > Can't resist -- how exactly is she "prepping" us for a H/G romance, given that Ginny has had very very very little on-screen time & development as a character? Ginny isn't even mentioned after the Yule Ball scene when we see her dancing with Neville as best I recall. Nah ... sorry but I fall into the camp that H/G is the ship with the least likelihood of happening. ** Whoa. Not expecting an ill response, unless I'm misinterpreting your post. Anyway, I'll try to elaborate. It's an overall feeling I've gotten from rereading the series several times. Maybe picking up on the way JK foreshadows events and themes. (an exteme example being Scabbers...) By no means is there 'hard' proof, but it's fun speculation. It's not something I have taken the time to analyze thoroughly, but what the hey. Let's try... First, her screen time will be increasing as will mostly likely her character development: - "Ginny Weasley will play more of a role in Book Five." - Philadelphia Inquirer Story, November 2000 Ginny: - Introduced in Book 1 as a young girl with crush on Harry - Attends Hogwarts in Book 2 and still has the crush on Harry - May have sent Harry the singing Valentine in Book 2 - Was rescued by Harry in Book 2, strengthening her crush - Can't remember an other references and don't have the books with me at this time. Overall, it seems like JK is preparing the characters for crushes, infatuations and romance. First with little crushes here and there. Then with the introduction of the Dance in Book 5. This book showing us the pre-romantic like/dislike between Hermione and Ron. Hermione liking Krump. Also, JK hints at Harry liking Cho Chang which will probably become his infatuation in future books. But like any young kid, Harry will probably be disappointed by his infatuation and realize that the girl for him has been there the whole time. (Ginny) Also, JK will at some point in the series resolve Ginny's infatuation for Harry, which she has built up in the series so far. (Which I believe JK has intentionally done) Either she will give up or Harry will reciprocate(sp). (or even worse, death) Not to mention JK's use of parallels in the series, like Harry, his friends and Draco compared to James, his friends and Snape. Ginny being much like Lily, atleast in appearance. Though we maybe more similarities will be revealed in Book 5 and beyond. That's about it for now. Being at work I can't respond as thoroughly as I'd like. From MeriLeslie26 at aol.com Tue Oct 16 14:42:33 2001 From: MeriLeslie26 at aol.com (MeriLeslie26 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:42:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks and Sirius Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27744 In a message dated 10/16/2001 9:51:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, frances at forever.u-net.com writes: > Hi. I'm just listening to PoA and hadn't realized how much Crookshanks > protects Sirius. Any thoughts on whether Crookshanks used to be Sirius' > cat? > > Frances > > > > I don't think so because in GoF Sirius says that it took him awhile to gain the cat's trust. If it was his cat wouldn't it have already trust him? Leslie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sdsundbe at harper.uchicago.edu Tue Oct 16 15:17:03 2001 From: sdsundbe at harper.uchicago.edu (Stevis) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:17:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Harry as Prefect, and Slytherin Withdrawls In-Reply-To: <1003240284.1023.85894.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27745 Without regards to dramatic uses by the author, let me say this: it would be lunacy for the Hogwarts staff to make Harry a prefect. As if he hasn't been singled out enough already there's the practical concern: They know Voldemort's on the prowl, and presumably after Harry. Should he be bold enough to try something large-scale and direct at Hogwart's (they don't know that's not likely until Book 7 ), the students will have to be led to saftey...presumably by the prefects, at least in part. So what sense is it to make Target #1 one of the prefects? Would tend to make him a sitting duck and endanger the other students. Although Dumbledore is powerful, Harry is still the only one who has defeated Voldemort--they have a pressing interest in keeping him safe, for morale if nothing else... As for the DE Slytherin kids withdrawing, I don't see it (yet). Right now, the MoM position is that Harry was smoking crack and Voldemort is "not back, la la, I can't hear you..." It would seem advantageous for V to not advertise his return just yet. That would include the DE's acting like nothing had happened, meaning they'd send their kids to Hogwarts... Just a few thoughts from the perspective of how the characters should act, to counterpoint the excellent author-perspective guesses on what will happen... Stevis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stevis, Wizard of the Hat O- s-sundbeck at uchicago.edu You call *that* a sig file? I'll show you a sig file... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 15:29:41 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What Did Dumbledore Know And When Did He Know It? In-Reply-To: <9qftd2+61eb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011016152941.13608.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27746 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > He was fooled into leaving for London. But quickly realizes he's been decoyed and turns around. > He was fooled (perhaps) about Lockhart's abilities. No he wasn't. His 'Hoist by your own petard' comment to Lockhart shows he is quite aware of the latters use of memory charms. > He was fooled by Crouch's impersonation of Moody. Yes he was. Crouch was of course being coached, (however unwillingly) by the real Moody and Dumbledore had a lot on his mind with the Triwizard competition and his worries for Harry. Busy with playing host to Madame Maxime, Karkaroff and the judges he just didn't spend enough time with 'Moody' to detect the impostiture. > He was fooled by the Goblet of Fire incident. Actually no. His defenses were set to prevent underage students from putting in their names *not* to protect against meddling by a mature wizard which in all fairness he had no reason to suspect. > He was fooled with the Cup-as-Portkey incident. The cup *wasn't* a portkey when it left Dumbledore's keeping. Moody/Crouch made it one after placing it in the maze. > He was fooled (sort of) into letting Crouch's soul get sucked out. How was he susposed to know Fudge would break his rule and bring a dementor into the school? > He was fooled for years by Mooney, Wormtail, >Padfoot and Prongs. Or was he....I wonder if he might not have known more about the Mauraders then they thought. > Then there are the times when Dumbledore is just out of the loop. > Like the existence of the Marauder's Map, The man's perceptive but not omniscient. There is no particular reason he should know about the map > the many passages into the castle, Who says he doesn't know about these? Just because *Filch* knows only four doesn't mean Dumbledore does. > Sirius letting Pettigrew be secret-keeper. The whole point of this was for nobody to know. Sirius intended it as a sort of double blind. The DEs would be after him but he can't tell because he won't know and Pettigrew would have been perfectly safe because nobody'd know he was the keeper. > And the times he appears to be a bit careless (leaving the Pensieve > out when he knew > Harry would be in his office). Fudge shows up unexpectedly while Dumbledore is using the Pensieve, he puts it away rather hastily and the door to the cupboard doesn't quite latch. D doesn't notice this, why should he? Just a little slip. All these various slips prove is Dumbledore, though a great wizard, is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. A character who never made mistakes would be quite dull. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From caliburncy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 16:52:42 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:52:42 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six Message-ID: <9qhokq+1v75@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27747 With all the talk of Book Five, I actually find myself currently more curious about Book Six. Obviously, with Book Seven being the GRAND, EPIC CONCLUSION and with GOF having been the book that sets said GRAND, EPIC CONCLUSION into motion, we can expect either Five or Six to function as something of a respite (perhaps even both to some extent). You can't up the stakes every book; it's just not possible to maintain good pacing. Which is why you have books like POA, that clearly further the storyline, and clearly have considerable impact upon the main focus of the events, but are not epic in the same sense. Between Five and Six, I personally expect Six to be more of the tangential respite. I may be entirely wrong, but it seems with the cliff-hanger ending of GOF that it might be difficult to not give Five the accordingly increasing epic scope. This of course does not equate to another direct conflict with Voldemort. Perhaps I should explain what I mean by "epic", which is not quite identical to the official definition. What I mean by something being on an "epic" scale in this particular case, is that it is shown to have far-reaching implications. Not whether or not it *logically* has far-reaching implications, but whether it is *shown* to have them. So GOF was in some ways made more epic, because not only did Voldemort's return affect the whole wizarding world (the logical reason), but it was also *shown* to be more epic in an indirect sort of way, by introducing us to more of the wizarding world via the Quidditch World Cup and the TriWizard Tournament. We see more of the world, and that sight 'ups the stakes' in its own way, simply because we are made more aware of just how vastly this conflict can affect the world. This was logically just as true of PS/SS, but it was not *shown* to be true, so it feels less epic in its scope. Five, I imagine, will be similarly epic, although in a different fashion. We will see more of the wizarding world and I suspect the focus will be on preparations for Seven. So what about Six? I find it hard to believe that it will be similarly "preparatory". Therefore I would expect it to be tangential and character-centric (i.e. backstory) like POA was. A story that clearly impacts the fight against Voldemort, but does not directly involve it. However, if this assumption is correct than I cannot for the life of me fathom why every question asked of JKR in interviews indicates that [insert any mystery here] will be answered in Five or Seven. Never Six. Maybe Six is the well-kept secret we are overlooking. Or perhaps I am dead wrong and Five will be the tangential respite, with Six being the increasingly epic. But if so then I certainly have to wonder how JKR is going to achieve that return to a sense of normalcy when it is clear that no normalcy is possible. And also how she will do this without it appearing like she has temporarily dropped the Voldemort conflict and not kept the promise she essentially makes at the end of GOF for everything to now go into full-gear? It seems to me that this balance would be much easier to achieve if Five were the epic and Six the respite. -Luke, who is rather curious to hear opinions, though he surely won't be fully satisfied until all the books come out and he can see for certain From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Oct 16 16:59:43 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:59:43 -0000 Subject: Ginny Weasley was Re: Book 5 predictions In-Reply-To: <3BCC30B0.9080309@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qhp1v+am5b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27748 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > > Can't resist -- how exactly is she "prepping" us for a H/G romance, > given that Ginny has had very very very little on-screen time & > development as a character? Ginny isn't even mentioned after the Yule > Ball scene when we see her dancing with Neville as best I recall. Nah > ... sorry but I fall into the camp that H/G is the ship with the least > likelihood of happening. Can't resist jumping on this, even though I'm on my way to Ireland today and you all will have to do without my stellar commentary for about 12 days or so... IMO, the best bit of evidence for H/G is structural. Ginny is the first eligible girl that Harry sees. Just as displaying a gun in the first act requires a duel in the third, the first girl the hero sees at the beginning of his adventures will be the one for him...unless she turns out to be his sister or something, which seems unlikely in this case. The lack of character development so far is part of the pattern. Ginny, IMO, is like the girl-next-door. Harry and the reader must be led to discount her, until some turn of events farther along in the story changes Harry's mind. Pippin From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 17:15:24 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:15:24 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Idle musings on Book Six Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27749 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com OWLs and NEWTs (Will they begin NEWTs during 6th year?) Maybe it's 5th, maybe 6th, but I think Harry will learn to do magic without wand. Sirius - is he to get free in book 5 or book 6? But, it seems that Snape is not going to be around Hogwarts in 5 - but, I think in book 6 we find out more about him... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 17:24:46 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:24:46 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks and Sirius Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27750 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: MeriLeslie26 at aol.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks and Sirius Black >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:42:33 EDT > >In a message dated 10/16/2001 9:51:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >frances at forever.u-net.com writes: > > > > Hi. I'm just listening to PoA and hadn't realized how much Crookshanks > > protects Sirius. Any thoughts on whether Crookshanks used to be Sirius' > > cat? > > > > Frances > > > > > > > > > >I don't think so because in GoF Sirius says that it took him awhile to gain >the cat's trust. If it was his cat wouldn't it have already trust him? Good point. Though it may be McGonagall who's a [i]registered[/i] cat-animagus he referred to. (Does she know or not?) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 17:42:53 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:42:53 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <9qhokq+1v75@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qhrit+j0ts@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27751 Luke wrote: > With all the talk of Book Five, I actually find myself currently more > curious about Book Six. You can't up the stakes every book; it's just not possible > to maintain good pacing. Which is why you have books like POA, that > clearly further the storyline, and clearly have considerable impact > upon the main focus of the events, but are not epic in the same sense. > Between Five and Six, I personally expect Six to be more of the > tangential respite. < > Five, I imagine, will be similarly epic, although in a different > fashion. We will see more of the wizarding world and I suspect the > focus will be on preparations for Seven. > > So what about Six? I find it hard to believe that it will be > similarly "preparatory". Therefore I would expect it to be tangential > and character-centric (i.e. backstory) like POA was. A story that > clearly impacts the fight against Voldemort, but does not directly > involve it. > > Or perhaps I am dead wrong and Five will be the tangential respite, > with Six being the increasingly epic. But if so then I certainly have > to wonder how JKR is going to achieve that return to a sense of > normalcy when it is clear that no normalcy is possible. And also how > she will do this without it appearing like she has temporarily dropped > the Voldemort conflict and not kept the promise she essentially makes > at the end of GOF for everything to now go into full-gear? It seems > to me that this balance would be much easier to achieve if Five were > the epic and Six the respite. > Thanks for the excellent analysis, Luke. Hmmm. I had considered the future books a bit differently and from a different perspective, I think. What intrigues me about books 3 and 4 is that the endings are not happy. The good guys definitely do not win in 3 and 4 (particularly contrasted with the clean victories Harry scores in the first two books, right down to winning the House Cup and freeing Dobby). I find the less happy endings to be more emotionally compelling. Maybe I'm a little bent to see things that way, but there you have it. So I think (and hope) Book 5 will be like PoA in that it will tell a great backstory and won't have a happy ending. In 5, I hope we'll learn a great deal about the prior struggles with Voldemort, focusing on the old crowd, Figg, Fletcher and hopefully lots of Lupin and Sirius, perhaps as they formulate strategy for Book 7. I figure we'll lose one central character (these days I think it will be Sirus, but I could be persuaded to pick Hagrid), and a few minor characters (Bagman and Karkarov), just for a diversion. The point of 5 might well be that Harry will find out that something isn't as he had always been told it was, just the way he found out in 3 that Sirius was not who Harry had been told he was. Then, Book 6 might be the first major engagement of good versus evil in the Voldemort II era. I think Book 6 will be disasterous for our side, and JKR will trot out the heavy artillery as Harry and Dumbledore lose badly. Assuming that the good guys will win in the end, it will be most interesting for the good guys to take some real hits in Book 6 and make them the underdogs. You know, so they can come back from the brink of disaster and all that stuff in 7. I expect to lose Dumbledore in Book 6, so that the resurgence in 7 is all the more of a surprise. Maybe Hagrid can go down with Dumbledore, trying to save him to the bitter end. <*sniff*> Now (and this is the hard part), how do I tie all this in with what Luke said so well? Mmmm. I don't think I agree with (or perhaps understand) the point about pacing, that is, that JKR can't up the ante in each book. True, she can't have 5 and 6 end with duels between Harry and Voldemort. But another way of upping the ante is to have our side take some staggering losses, so that the stakes are higher because we are that much closer to going down in defeat. But if you think about it, JKR has just two books to set the stage for the final confrontation, so she is going to have to bring on the conflict in a fast and furious fashion, and she may not have time in 5 to do a lot of background work like she did in the early chapters of GoF. As I wasn't a fan of those early GoF "Let's explain the breadth of the wizarding world" chapters, this would be good news, perhaps. There is a LOT we don't know about the Voldermort I era, and I am just dying to find out about that. Luke wrote: However, if this assumption is correct than I cannot for > the life of me fathom why every question asked of JKR in interviews > indicates that [insert any mystery here] will be answered in Five or > Seven. Never Six. Maybe Six is the well-kept secret we are > overlooking. Nice observation, Luke. I'd like to hear from people who were listies who had read 1-3 and were waiting for GoF. Did JKR give reall clues to to what she planned to do with GoF back then, or was it mostly misdirection? These days, I don't put too much stock in what JKR says about what is coming in future books, because I think she is deliberately cagey and never tells us anything really important. Was she similarly cagey in her statements about GoF before it was released, or did she really give us clues back then about what was coming? Cindy (who will never get any work done if Luke keeps posting such interesting theories) From kidzero7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 17:46:21 2001 From: kidzero7 at hotmail.com (kidzero7 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:46:21 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <9qhokq+1v75@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qhrpd+9d0d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27752 Good post. I agree that Book 6 will "will be similarly 'preparatory'. Therefore I would expect it to be tangential and character-centric (i.e. backstory) like POA was." Just to add, I think the revealing of backstories and character exploration will resolve some mysteries that have been nagging us readers. (What really happened to Neville and his parents? What were James and Lily's jobs? Is Draco 'truly' evil?) More importantly though, I think it will turn some 'truths' we 'think' we know upside- down, someone's loyalty will be called into question and several new mysteries will be introduced. Not to mention a big cliffhanger. All to be resolved in the grand Book 7. From blaise_writer at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 17:56:26 2001 From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:56:26 -0000 Subject: Ignorance (Deus Ex Machina) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qhsca+4jga@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27753 wrote: > > Forgive me, but I have seen this phrase a couple of times and don't know what it means - Deus Ex Machina - can anyone enlighten me, please? Deus ex machina: literally 'the god from the machine'. The term comes from ancient Greek tragedy. At the end of a play, often a character playing one of the gods would come down in the 'machine,' a crane-like machine which made it look as if the god were descending from Olympus. Normally the god would deliver some kind of moral about the events of the play. Nowadays the phrase means a miraculous solution to a problem within a story, for example when some hitherto unknown creature/person comes in and saves the hero from disaster at the eleventh hour. It also can be used more loosely to mean an unbelievable plot device. (Eline wrote a wonderful fanfic called 'Deus Ex Machina' which can be found at http://www.fanfiction.net when it comes back online. This explains the concept far better than I ever will.) Examples of deus ex machina events from HP: You could say that Fawkes arriving to rescue Harry in the Chamber of Secrets was a mildly deus- ex-machina event, in that we had no real warning that something like that was possible and he solves all Harry's problems rather quickly. I expect there are others, but I've run out of inspiration. I hope that explains it fairly well. Blaise From joym999 at aol.com Tue Oct 16 18:02:37 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:02:37 -0000 Subject: Potions vs. Charms In-Reply-To: <9qeup3+4l14@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qhsnt+s9h4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27754 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Hogwarts students spend a great deal of time in Potions class. [snip] > But why bother with Potions? Charms (including spells, hexes, > jinxes, and curses) are so much more handy. All you need is a wand > and an incantation, and you're in business. One possibility is that potions are portable, and can be used by anyone. In practically every work of literature that involves magic, as well as for all we know in real life, there are witches and wizards who make a living selling potions to muggles. Charms can only be used by wizards and witches. If there were no potions, the magical community would be deprived of an important source of their income. Also, the difference between potions and charms may just be a question of style. After all, we have both cars and motorcycles; both trains and buses; both cough drops and cough syrup; etc. --Joywitch From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 16 18:16:40 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:16:40 -0500 Subject: HP Characters: Three-Dimensional or Archetypes? (Harry in Particular) Message-ID: <3BCC7988.7010803@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27755 Hi everyone -- I was reading an article in Christian Century entitled "Rowling as Moralist," and I wanted to explore one of the author's assertions. She says: "Although Rowling's characters are convincing and engaging, none of them is fully three-dimensional. These characters are progressively revealed, but they don't grow or change -- not even Harry himself. As each school year passes, Harry becomes more and ever more clearly who he is. But that's all. His development is essentially linear." Putting Harry aside for a moment, is it true that all the other characters are archetypes or one-dimensional? Let's start with Snape. I think it's true that his character is being progressively revealed to us, bit by bit. We don't know the full pre-books Snape yet (although apparently Alan Rickman does!!!). Has Snape changed much in the first 4 books? Probably not actually. In his case (and he's the one character that most people argue is the most complex & multi-dimensional), he hasn't really grown or changed so much. We the readers have simply come to understand more about him. BUT, he certainly has the capacity to grow & change before the series is completed, and in fact, I expect that he will change quite alot over the course of the next 3 books. He is also willing to put aside his differences with Sirius Black by the end of GoF, for the sake of unity against the Voldemort camp. This is a sign of growth I think. What about the Trio? Have they grown or changed over the course of the books so far? Do they have the potential to grow even more? I think so. Hermione -- I think she's changed alot from having become close friends with Harry & Ron. Is she someone who's just become more clearly who she was, or is she someone who's faced some challenges & made changes in herself as a result? I think she faced the challenge of being friendless & became a more well-rounded person as a result. IMO, she has made great strides toward becoming less bossy, less of a know-it-all. I think she is a different person than she might have been if she hadn't become friends with Harry & Ron. Ron -- Is he the same basic person he was when we first met him in the train compartment in PS/SS? Ron strikes me as a character who hasn't completely conquered his demons yet. I do think there's potential for him to face his inner challenges & become a different person as a result though. He still needs to come to term with his jealousies, insecurities & ambition ... but I don't think it's impossible that he won't. I'm just not sure we've seen too much growth from Ron so far. Harry -- Here's the meat of the discussion. Has Harry just become "more and ever more clearly who he is" or has he changed in some fundamental way so far? In PS/SS, I would say that "No ... he really just finds out who he is & begins to find his place in the wizarding world." Hermione is the one who changes the most in PS/SS I think. In CoS, Harry wonders to himself about whether the Sorting Hat should have placed him in Slytherin, he wonders if he could be Slytherin's Heir. One of my favorite analyses of HP is an article by Alan Jacobs in which Jacobs points out that in CoS, Harry has been asking the wrong question. He's been asking "Who am I?" when what he should have been asking is "What must I do to become what I should be?" (Jacobs sees the books as one big giant bildungsroman, a study in character formation -- I tend to agree with this view). But, in CoS, I'm not sure we can argue that Harry undergoes any sort of fundamental character shift yet. Now, PoA. I think Harry is presented with temptations that must be overcome, and these temptations & the way he handles them do in turn affect his fundamental character. The temptations, of course, are Sirius Black (turns out that Harry was very glad he refrained from killing Black) and Peter Pettigrew (showing mercy to the man who betrayed his parents). Is Harry a different person at the end of PoA than he was in the beginning? Or, was he always at base a good merciful person, who wouldn't have had it in him to make any other choices with regard to Black or Pettigrew? What about GoF? Harry spends the better part of this book in a state of panic over the Tournament. The connections between Harry & Voldemort are becoming harder to ignore by the end of this one too. We don't get too many introspective glimpses into Harry's psyche post-duel with Voldemort IMO; it's hard to say how that experience *really* affected him. My sense is that he is scarred & that he will distance himself from others in the next book. He did change over the course of GoF ... but I'm not completely sold on the idea that the growth wasn't merely linear after all. I think I've managed to confuse myself a fair bit with this one. My initial thought when I read the quoted material from this article was to say, "No way. The characters, especially Harry, definitely change & grow." Now that I've tried to analyze it, I'm not so sure any longer. I do, however, feel certain that JKR isn't done with Harry's demons in particular. I think Harry will very definitely be forced to confront other aspects of his personality before all is said & done. I think it's also possible that Ron & Hermione will be required to do the same. So, thoughts anyone? Is Harry inevitably good? Is his growth linear so far? Will his ultimate maturation require him to face temptations, challenges & inner demons? What do you think? Penny (who especially hopes English lit types like Ebony will pick this thread up ...given that her own English lit days are long, long ago) From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 18:20:44 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:20:44 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27756 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com My vote is for Harry, at least, being a prefect. Harry, because the headmaster said to EVERYONE: "I respect him(Harry)" after a little speech of bearing an adult burden well & all that, doing things some Adults wouldn't have been able to etc. What other student can claim having the Headmaster's respect? Also, Harry's supposed to go to Dumbledore every time his scar hurts. It'd be a bit dull having him yell names of candies AGAIN - as prefect he'd probably know the password. It might even be that he's the Head Boy right out (which will be extremely difficult for him), but a prefect at least. Hermione making best grades in more subjects than most would be a strong claim of being at least a candidate for being a prefect. Ron as prefect? I don't think so, but he could be the Quidditch Captain of Gryffindors. (And Keeper) Also, I think that the FIRST prefect meeting takes place in the train so that they can choose the Head Boy and Head Girl... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From joym999 at aol.com Tue Oct 16 18:29:46 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:29:46 -0000 Subject: What Did Dumbledore Know And When Did He Know It? In-Reply-To: <9qftd2+61eb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qhuaq+ktf7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27757 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > The more I think about Dumbledore's behavior, the stranger it seems. > He is supposed to be a wise and powerful wizard, right? But if you > consider the number of times he is fooled by someone or something, it > starts to add up. > > He was fooled into leaving for London. Being wise and powerful doesn't mean that you're infallible. Besides which, he realized pretty quickly that he had been fooled. > He was fooled (perhaps) about Lockhart's abilities. I don't think he was fooled by Lockhart -- I challenge you to find ANY school ANYWHERE without a few bad teachers. Lockhart was the ONLY applicant, remember. Besides which, Dumbledore has to answer to the Board of Governors. What's he going to say to them? "The students won't be learning DADA this year because I suspect that the only applicant, Lockhart, who has published dozens of books and is a superstar in the wizarding world, is a phony?" > He was fooled by Crouch's impersonation of Moody. Well, yes, he was. But Crouch is clearly a pretty powerful wizard in his own right. > He was fooled by the Goblet of Fire incident. This is unclear. It seemed to me that he knew that there was something fishy going on and felt that the best strategy would be to let it play out. > He was fooled with the Cup-as-Portkey incident. Again, Crouch is no slouch (sorry). > He was fooled (sort of) into letting Crouch's soul get sucked out. I don't think he was fooled; Fudge is a pretty politically powerful guy who doesn't have to check with Dumbledore before he does things. > He was fooled for years by Mooney, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. You can't expect Dumbledore to keep track of all the mischief his students get up to. Besides which, he sounds sort of proud of them for accomplishing so much behind his back. I think you are misinterpreting JKR's depiction of Dumbledore as a very powerful wizard. He is just that -- very powerful, but he is not some sort of all-seeing, all-powerful deity. He is mortal, he is constrained by political realities and human fallibility, he is not universally loved or believed. Of course he is going to be fooled sometimes. Of course he is not going to win all the battles. He is still the best wizard around. Not perfect -- but better than all the others and the best we've got. --Joywitch From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 16 18:32:23 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:32:23 -0500 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six References: <9qhrit+j0ts@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BCC7D37.3070506@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27758 Hi -- Cindy C. wrote: > Luke wrote: > > However, if this assumption is correct than I cannot for > > the life of me fathom why every question asked of JKR in interviews > > indicates that [insert any mystery here] will be answered in Five > or > > Seven. Never Six. Maybe Six is the well-kept secret we are > > overlooking. > > Nice observation, Luke. I'd like to hear from people who were > listies who had read 1-3 and were waiting for GoF. Did JKR give > reall clues to to what she planned to do with GoF back then, or was > it mostly misdirection? These days, I don't put too much stock in > what JKR says about what is coming in future books, because I think > she is deliberately cagey and never tells us anything really > important. Was she similarly cagey in her statements about GoF > before it was released, or did she really give us clues back then > about what was coming? My opinion is that she was very cagey (and with hindsight, crafty) in her pre-GoF interviews. I don't anything spectacularly important was revealed in pre-GoF interviews or chats, and some things were fairly misleading. For example, if you go back & read the Archives, you'd find that virtually everyone just knew that Harry & Cho would date in GoF based on JKR statements. This was misleading because while he had a mild crush on her and did ask her out on one date, she rejected him & dates his rival instead. Just for grins, I pulled out Book Magazine's article (May/June 2000). Here's what they said (all based on JKR interviews & chats): ** They all fall in love with the wrong people (hmmm.... did any of them really fall in love? Seems overplayed to me) ** The new DADA is rumored to be Davey Gudgeon with his magical eye ** The first truly evil female character makes her debut ** The Quidditch World Cup takes place, Ireland v Bulgaria (straight-forward & true) ** There will be "a number of deaths, including that of one character readers have grown to love" (okay, so we grew to know Cedric better over the course of GoF, but most everyone assumed the death would be someone we *already* knew ... and GoF hardly features a "number" of deaths) ** Harry is in contact with Sirius (true) ** Another Weasley, Ron's cousin, appears (false b/c JKR deleted this aspect of GoF) ** Readers find out about other wizarding schools ** We learn why Voldemort is who he is (huh? Did we?) ** The book's ending will be very frightening indeed So ... you might see now why I'm skeptical of things like "Ginny will have a more important role in Book 5." I tend to think, "Well, that's great because right now the Giant Squid has had about as much of a role as Ginny's had so far." Sorry ... I just don't like Ginny, don't think she's at all the person for Harry ... (fodder for another post). Back to the original question though: I think JKR is deliberately cagey, and she words things in such a way that they can be subject to more than one interpretation. I don't think she gives things away very easily, and very little of what she says is straight-forward factual information (such as the World Cup teams). Penny From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 16 18:35:33 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:35:33 -0500 Subject: Prefects References: Message-ID: <3BCC7DF5.5030206@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27759 Hi -- Susanna Luhtanen wrote: > Also, I think that the FIRST prefect meeting takes place in the train so > that they can choose the Head Boy and Head Girl... No -- Percy is already Head Boy when the group meets up in Diagon Alley at the beginning of PoA (Ron says in the letter that he found out before the Weasleys went to Egypt to visit Bill ... and Percy's Head Boy badge was visible in that photo). So, the Head Boy & Head Girl are clearly chosen in the summer before term starts. My guess is that the professors make this choice (rather than it being a matter voted on by all the prefects as a group). Penny From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 18:39:26 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:39:26 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Father figures revisited & McGonagall Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27760 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: "Cindy C." >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Father figures revisited & McGonagall >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:55:12 -0000 > > >First, I've always been struck about how Sirius keeps the focus on >Harry in the Shrieking Shack scene. When Harry objects to killing >Pettigrew, I half expected Sirius to say, "To heck with that. I'm >not avenging James and Lily. I'm killing Pettigrew to pay him back >for what he did to me." But he never says anything like that, which >shows that his devotion to Harry is deep indeed. I do wonder what >Sirius would do now if he met Pettigrew in a dark alley. I think >Sirius' loyalty to Harry on this point would save Pettigrew again. Well, I think Sirius would use a 'stupefy' spell or some such to capture him instead of killing. (For Harry and for himself) >Second, I have observed that, despite having McGonagall as a teacher >for 4 years, Harry doesn't have much of a relationship with her. He >doesn't ask her for help with his problems, really. I would have >expected her to be a mother figure by now, but Molly Weasley has >really stepped into that role. Sure, McGonagall fulfills >the "nagging" (for lack of a better word) part of a mother's role, >but there hasn't been a great deal of counsel from McGonagall yet. >There is still time, I suppose. Yes. Harry's first impression of Ms. McGonagall: "You don't want to make her angry" and it has held so far. Maybe Harry will ask her to teach him to be animagus - registered one, of course. (He's been growing his hair by magic all his life, you know) Wandless magic: blowing things and people up. Could Harry learn to master it? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From joym999 at aol.com Tue Oct 16 18:42:09 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:42:09 -0000 Subject: Book 5 predictions In-Reply-To: <3BCC30B0.9080309@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qhv21+2r4o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27761 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Actually, GoF was the book that JKR identified as the "end of an era" > (see Entertainment Weekly -- Sept 7 2000 interview). OoP is thus the > beginning of a new era. > Yep. Keep in mind that the last chapter of GoF is titled "The Beginning." --Joywitch, who feels that sometimes a one-line post is necessary even if it is, technically, against the rules From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Tue Oct 16 18:40:29 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:40:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What Did Dumbledore Know And When Did He Know It? In-Reply-To: <9qftd2+61eb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011016193939.00a09700@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27762 At 01:01 16/10/01, you wrote: >All of that (coupled by this recent bit about him being vain) is >making me wonder. Is he letting all of these things happen for a >reason, or should he re-think the part about being so trusting? Wouldn't that sort of thing be brought on by advanced old age?? I can't remember how old he is but I seem to remember him being over 100 right...? Martin Hooper AIM:martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From djtarb at aol.com Tue Oct 16 18:58:59 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:58:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Idle musings on Book Six Message-ID: <4b.12b432bf.28fddd7c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27763 In a message dated Tue, 16 Oct 2001 2:35:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Penny & Bryce writes: > > Just for grins, I pulled out Book Magazine's article (May/June 2000). > Here's what they said (all based on JKR interviews & chats): > mega snip > ** The first truly evil female character makes her debut > This could be true. We just may not kow yet that she is evil (if she is Fleur or Madame). Or it could be Rita Skeeter, who is certainly awful and may indeed be evil. > > ** There will be "a number of deaths, including that of one character > readers have grown to love" (okay, so we grew to know Cedric better over > the course of GoF, but most everyone assumed the death would be someone > we *already* knew ... and GoF hardly features a "number" of deaths) > Agreed...if she was referring to GoF, she has more trouble counting than I had previously imagined. > ** Another Weasley, Ron's cousin, appears (false b/c JKR deleted this > aspect of GoF) Or, if female, SHE could have been the truly evil critter. > ** We learn why Voldemort is who he is (huh? Did we?) No, but we do learn a bit more of his history. And it's nasty. > > ** The book's ending will be very frightening indeed > This was right on! > > Back to the original question though: I think JKR is deliberately cagey, > and she words things in such a way that they can be subject to more than > one interpretation. I don't think she gives things away very easily, > and very little of what she says is straight-forward factual information > (such as the World Cup teams). > Penny, I agree completely. I know that JKR has the whole thing outlined, but it is painfully obvious in her interviews that she doesn't have the entire story written yet, so has not made the difficult decisions about who must go because of space constraints and who will fill in the plot holes of those characters she cuts. It's sort of interesting seeing that evolution, though, isn't it? Diane in Philly From margdean at erols.com Tue Oct 16 18:42:29 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:42:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Idle musings on Book Six References: <4b.12b432bf.28fddd7c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BCC7F95.8A538C2@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27764 djtarb at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated Tue, 16 Oct 2001 2:35:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Penny & Bryce writes: > > ** There will be "a number of deaths, including that of one character > > readers have grown to love" (okay, so we grew to know Cedric better over > > the course of GoF, but most everyone assumed the death would be someone > > we *already* knew ... and GoF hardly features a "number" of deaths) > > > > Agreed...if she was referring to GoF, she has more trouble counting > than I had previously imagined. How many do you need to count as "a number"? I can think of at least three offhand: Frank Bryce, Crouch Sr., and Cedric. --Margaret Dean From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 19:21:48 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:21:48 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prefects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27765 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: Penny & Bryce >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prefects >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:35:33 -0500 > >Hi -- > >Susanna Luhtanen wrote: > > > > Also, I think that the FIRST prefect meeting takes place in the train so > > that they can choose the Head Boy and Head Girl... > >No -- Percy is already Head Boy when the group meets up in Diagon Alley >at the beginning of PoA (Ron says in the letter that he found out before >the Weasleys went to Egypt to visit Bill ... and Percy's Head Boy badge >was visible in that photo). So, the Head Boy & Head Girl are clearly >chosen in the summer before term starts. My guess is that the >professors make this choice (rather than it being a matter voted on by >all the prefects as a group). All right... Won't argue. The choice is made during the summer... Could it be that - Head of House chooses the prefects of his/her house - but with the approval of the Headmaster. The Headmaster chooses Headboy and Headgirl. The letters - could it be that Minerva McGonagall writes them to all first years (as deputy Headmaster), Each Head of House to his/her house. Dumbledore may write additional letters considering new status... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dorothydch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 19:54:43 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:54:43 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and Sirius Black (Crookshanks is Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qi3a3+n3q6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27766 I think Crookshanks is Mrs.Figg. Mrs. Figg did break her leg hence "crook" "shank". This cat just happen to have never been bought before. Crookshanks attacked Wormtail in the store with Ron. Afterwards, she charmed Hermione into buying her. Maybe the letter that Dumbledore left the Dursley's when Harry was a baby indicated that they could call on Mrs. Figg for care of Harry. Since the Dursley's only call on her in regards to Harry. Dumbeldore may have wanted extra protection of Harry at Hogwarts, just as he brought in Mad Eye Moody. To make a real stretch Dumbledore used a spell that protected Harry in the presence of his relatives ... maybe Figg is a relative. Also, I think Dumbledore is a relative. He caught on to Madeye Moody because he said the real Mad eye would have never taken Harry away from his presence after Cedric was killed. Now a real strecth Mrs. Figg could be Dumbledore's sister (around the same age) he trust her as part of the "old gang" Dorothy One last thing Dumbledore would have never left Harry with the Dursley's with just a lette (we still do not know what was in the letter) and without proper protection. He was also very careful that he would not be overwhelmed by his fame at a young age. Although throughout the years with the Dursley's many people from the magic community approached him. Which leads to the question of how many did he not see. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MeriLeslie26 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/16/2001 9:51:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > frances at f... writes: > > > > Hi. I'm just listening to PoA and hadn't realized how much Crookshanks > > protects Sirius. Any thoughts on whether Crookshanks used to be Sirius' > > cat? > > > > Frances > > > > > > > > > > I don't think so because in GoF Sirius says that it took him awhile to gain > the cat's trust. If it was his cat wouldn't it have already trust him? > > Leslie > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 20:18:55 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:18:55 -0000 Subject: Potions/Charms - Foolish AD - MM as Mother - Prefects In-Reply-To: <9qh880+klg7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qi4nf+n3c8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27767 Amy wrote: (a lot of good stuff--snip) Does anyone know how many prefects there are for each house? Perhaps it would take a British person to answer this question. -Megan (who becomes quite befuddled when people try explain British schools) From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 20:24:09 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:24:09 -0000 Subject: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 In-Reply-To: <9qhbsu+leuk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qi519+ddi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27768 Cindy wrote: > > I think it is would be a lot more fun if Draco has power over Harry > due to Draco's Prefect status. If they're both Prefects, then the > balance of power is exactly the same as it was in the first four > books. But if Draco is a prefect and Harry is not . . . oooh, the > possibilities are so delicious. How demeaning it would be if Draco > could send Harry back to his dorm when he was prowling around after > hours. > > By the way, can Prefects take points away from all students or just > members of their own house? I seem to recall Percy taking points > from Harry and Ron in CoS. > > Cindy I think you hit the jackpot there--author's delight. This situation is THE best for creating new (and exciting conflict), which is what stories are based on. I can foresee JKR having fun with this one...plus, couldn't it be a subtle sub-plot on good vs. evil? Harry being Good, with Draco in the Bad side, yet Draco holds the power... -Megan From djtarb at aol.com Tue Oct 16 20:28:42 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:28:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Idle musings on Book Six Message-ID: <141.32bf603.28fdf27a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27769 In a message dated Tue, 16 Oct 2001 3:25:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Margaret Dean writes: > > How many do you need to count as "a number"? I can think of at > least three offhand: Frank Bryce, Crouch Sr., and Cedric. > You're right. I had completely lost track of Frank Bryce, and even though it happened in the distant past Tom Riddle's father and grandparents too! That certainly qualifies as "a number". Diane in PA (who herself has always had trouble with counting) From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 20:39:06 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:39:06 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <9qhrit+j0ts@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qi5ta+v44q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27770 > > Nice observation, Luke. I'd like to hear from people who were > listies who had read 1-3 and were waiting for GoF. Did JKR give > reall clues to to what she planned to do with GoF back then, or was > it mostly misdirection? These days, I don't put too much stock in > what JKR says about what is coming in future books, because I think > she is deliberately cagey and never tells us anything really > important. Was she similarly cagey in her statements about GoF > before it was released, or did she really give us clues back then > about what was coming? > > Cindy (who will never get any work done if Luke keeps posting such > interesting theories) *ahh, back in the days when we didn't even have the fourth Harry Potter* I'd have to say similarly cagey. In fact, it seems to me she's given MORE clues about OOP (which I also don't like to use as a title, because I think it will change) than she gave about GOF when it first came out. No one knew the title, cover art, plotline, and POA contained very little foreshadowing as to the possibilities. I do BELIEVE some of the clues she did release was the death of a character & Sirius having more screen time--but I'm pretty sure those were the only significant hints. But I have to agree with your ascertation, Cindy--JKR IS cagey about her hints, and they usually turn out to be minor--but in turn, we tend to focus on them beforehand (thus disabling us to accurately forsee the true story) because they are literally all we have. Some of my scepticism goes back to before GOF and the title. Several titles were speculated upon, and there was one (I believe) that was "confimed" *cough* for a while. Which is really why I think OOP will not be the true title of Book 5--we all know how JKR likes to shock her fans. -Megan, wishing we could just have the books and be done with it! From jepetta at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 20:45:56 2001 From: jepetta at hotmail.com (jepetta at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:45:56 -0000 Subject: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 In-Reply-To: <9qi519+ddi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qi6a4+j38@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27771 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: > Cindy wrote: > > > > I think it is would be a lot more fun if Draco has power over Harry > > due to Draco's Prefect status. If they're both Prefects, then the > > balance of power is exactly the same as it was in the first four > > books. But if Draco is a prefect and Harry is not . . . oooh, the > > possibilities are so delicious. How demeaning it would be if Draco > > could send Harry back to his dorm when he was prowling around after > > hours. > > > > By the way, can Prefects take points away from all students or just > > members of their own house? I seem to recall Percy taking points > > from Harry and Ron in CoS. > > > > Cindy > > I think you hit the jackpot there--author's delight. This situation > is THE best for creating new (and exciting conflict), which is what > stories are based on. I can foresee JKR having fun with this > one...plus, couldn't it be a subtle sub-plot on good vs. evil? Harry > being Good, with Draco in the Bad side, yet Draco holds the power... > > -Megan ...AND...Hermione has to work side-by-side with the git! I bet on her becoming prefect and *then* Head Girl, right along with Head Boy Draco Malfoy. The tension, conflict, and possibilities (*and* plausibility!) are at a maximum with this combination, and I'm making it *my* hard-and-fast prediction. Ron and Harry may be getting the shaft, but I don't think either will become a prefect. --Jepetta From dorothydch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 20:51:55 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:51:55 -0000 Subject: Is Harry actually Voldemort? Message-ID: <9qi6lb+s7u2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27772 Just a hunch. I am on the third reading of the series. It seems Voldemort is obessed with becoming immortal. We see he want to do everything possible to extend his life and power. Was Harry made from Voldemort with the help of Dumbledore, Lily and James as a means to destroy Voldemort? Voldemort did reincarnate himself from his father, his servant and Harry's blood. When Voldemort attacked the Potters he was specifically going after Harry. James yelled for Lily to take Harry way and delayed Voldemort.Voldemort told Lily to move away from the baby. Is the intention of Dumbledore to strenghten Harry so that he can defeat Voldemort. It is like he has sent Harry into the past or future (I'm not sure which yet) to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore knows Voldemort very well and knew him at Hogwarts. Harry has the same kind of upbringing as Tom Riddle. We know that time can be turned back. Has Dumbledore turned back the time and sent in a "good" Tom Riddle to defeat the "bad" Tom Riddle. Harry did see himself when he went back in time, he actually saved himself from the dementors. Therefore, can some one go back and destroy the old self...hmmm The ultimate fight of good and evil within oneself. The sorting hat said that Harry would make a good Slyterine. It was Harry's choice to be good not bad. Last hint was that Dumbledore smiled when Harry told him that Voldemort used his blood. This seems to be a fatal mistake for Voldemort. Harry was charmed by Lily with the ultimate protection "Love" which was inexistent in the "old"Voldemort. The book ends with Harry overpowering Voldemort. I also think that Dumbledore is holding on to life until he is sure that someone can replace him. As Harry gets stronger, suddenly Dumbledore begins to look old. Is he like the phoenix beginning to molt preparing himself for a new phoenix to rise from his ashes? It is already said the Dumbledore is the best wizard in the world but is he more than that. Before the Championship, the other two school teachers remarked that they wanted to prove that Dumbledore was "human" Harry would be the strongest wizard in the world if he had the qualities of both Voldemort and Dumbledore and the wisdom to know when to use which power. Okay enough ranting... Dorothy From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Oct 16 20:58:31 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:58:31 -0000 Subject: HP Characters: Three-Dimensional or Archetypes? (Harry in Particular) In-Reply-To: <3BCC7988.7010803@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qi71n+j256@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27773 I really liked this, Penny! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > "Although Rowling's characters are convincing and engaging, none of them is fully three-dimensional. These characters are progressively revealed, but they don't grow or change -- not even Harry himself. As each school year passes, Harry becomes more and ever more clearly who he is. But that's all. His development is essentially linear."> I disagree with that comment. How is Harry not growing if he is becoming more and more who he is? Harry just found out who he is four years ago! -snip good comments about Hermione and Ron; I agree with just about all of it- >Is Harry inevitably good? Is his growth linear so far? Will his ultimate maturation require him to face temptations, challenges & inner demons?> I most definitely think Harry is good. However, I think he has plenty of inner demons to face, but that certainly does not mean he will stop being good because of those demons. Harry's biggest inner conflict, IMO, is that he is and always will be different than others. He is, literally, a branded man, the Boy Who Lived. I agree with you Penny, that Harry will become isolated from his two best friends in OoP and that there were some pretty hints of it in GoF. His isolation is something he may need to do in order to look inside himself. I think the comment about Harry wondering who he is vs Harry wondering what he will become must go hand in hand. How can anyone think about the future if one does not first contemplate the here and now and the self in it? Harry does that quite well. Even if Harry knows who he is that does not mean he knows how to deal with it. Each book has had Harry deal with his identity in different ways: in SS Harry was new to everything and learning how to be a wizard and live in the wizarding world. In CoS Harry had his first bitter taste of fame and how people can be fickle towards celebrities (for lack of a better word to describe Harry). In PoA Harry is able to learn more about his parents and the kind of people they were; how can that not have a major impact on Harry and how he deals with things? In PoA, Harry also realized that he can control himself from making rash and violent decisions and has the presence of mind to kill neither Sirius nor Pettigrew; I don't think Harry knew that about himself earlier. Now he has that in him always. In GoF Harry learns more about being "famous Harry Potter" and how hard that is. He learns how to take on a task (the Tournament) that is pretty much out of his league - not so far from his struggle against Voldemort. He also is actively interested in girls, something that will not go away. I can't imagine that he would have been able to ask Cho to the dance in PoA; in GoF he has grown enough to handle the asking and the subsequent rejection. Whether Harry is growing linearly or otherwise, he is still growing. He is also only 14 and I have a lot of respect for any 14 year old kid who thinks about things and handles them the way Harry does. We may very well see Harry make some mistakes in the future, but I think Harry will, in the end, be good, strong and always introspective. --jenny from ravenclaw, always the first to defend her dear Harry ********************************** From dorothydch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 21:34:06 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:34:06 -0000 Subject: Newcomer + Book 5 prediction In-Reply-To: <9qfvam+bia3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qi94e+94ql@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27774 I agree I think it will be Dumbledore. Dumbledore is like his phoenix and at the end of book 4 he is beginning to molt. He suddenly begins to look old. I think this will throw everyone in mass confusion since they are so use to him having all the answers. As he said in the end of the last book everyone will have to choice between what is right and what is easy. There is was a preview as to what happened after the "death" of Voldemort. His followers where in chaos after his "death", some stayed loyal and some betrayed him. I think we will see what happened to the Death-eaters happen to the "old gang". They will be hunted down like the old gang hunted down the death eaters. Also, the Dementors will change sides and work for Voldemort as they are only interested in the party who can satisfy there needs. It makes for a more gripping story. Also, I believe the author is trying to illustrate age old story line. The uneding battle between good and evil. The first book started off with the celebration of the defeat of evil. However, throughout the rest of the books we see that mistakes made by the "good" people actually helps evil to re-enter their lives, i.e non-compassionate (Sirius goes to prison with out a trail), prejudice (Arthur Weasley is not promoted because he likes Muggles), power (Fudge does not want to react to Dumbledore suggestion, probably because he does not want to be unpopular) etc. Just a thought, Dorothy --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kewpie" wrote: > Hi everyone, > I'm a new Harry Potter fan (so late ^^;;) and I'm happy to find a > group with all these interesting discussion. > > I don't know if someone talked about this before already (I'm sure > there is, I've been going thru. the archieve roughly for the past > week too), about Book 5, after reading many J.K. Rowling interview, > I'm pretty much confident to say that the person who's a "Harry's > fan" will die is Dumbledore. I totally don't see the point of killing > off minor characters like Ginny or Colin and such, because similar > situation already happen in GoF, the impact of "the death of a minor > chara" has already been done. So in Book 5, a very major chara will > die and it'll be Dumbledore. and I read an interview that J.K. > Rowling said book 5 will be "the end of an era", which strengthen the > idea of Dumbledore's death (the end of the "dumbledore as headmaster > era"). I think Dumbledore probably predicted his death already and > told the teachers. Probably he told Snape to do something after his > death (like become the next Headmaster? no...McGonagall will be the > next Headmaster and Snape might replace McGonagall?) > anyways, I would like to know if anyone agress with me. From suki_willoughby at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 21:54:11 2001 From: suki_willoughby at yahoo.com (suki_willoughby at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:54:11 -0000 Subject: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 In-Reply-To: <9qi6a4+j38@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qiaa3+4u2u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27775 [snip] > ...AND...Hermione has to work side-by-side with the git! I bet on > her becoming prefect and *then* Head Girl, right along with Head Boy > Draco Malfoy. The tension, conflict, and possibilities (*and* > plausibility!) are at a maximum with this combination, and I'm making > it *my* hard-and-fast prediction. Ron and Harry may be getting the > shaft, but I don't think either will become a prefect. > > --Jepetta **de-lurking momentarily** Okay, not that it isn't within the realm of possiblity but where is any evidence that Draco Malfoy would become a Prefect, let alone Head Boy? When compared with Percy (the most well drawn Prefect thus far in the Canon), Draco lacks the two most obvious characteristics that would qualify one to become a Prefect, i.e., ability to follow rules and high marks academically. Draco has been known to break the rules numerous times (one incident particularly infuriating to the staff was the Faux-Dementor stunt) and there is simply ZERO evidence that he excelled at his studies. For that matter I would think there is more evidence to the contrary, that he's a rather poor student. The incident with the Hippogriff being one example (not listening and missing crucial information...). AND he's not very popular with the staff (save Severus Snape). I think it's highly unlikely that Draco will become a Prefect. Can anyone provide reasons to think otherwise aside from wishful (well, not on my part) thinking and an interesting plot turn? Thanks ... Suki **back to lurking and reading all the great posts today ...*** From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 22:15:26 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:15:26 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <141.32bf603.28fdf27a@aol.com> Message-ID: <9qibhu+7omr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27776 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., djtarb at a... wrote: > > > > How many do you need to count as "a number"? I can think of at > > least three offhand: Frank Bryce, Crouch Sr., and Cedric. > > > You're right. I had completely lost track of Frank Bryce, and even though it happened in the distant past Tom Riddle's father and grandparents too! That certainly qualifies as "a number". > Uh oh. We also forgot Bertha Jorkins. So the body count is: Cedric Frank Bertha Crouch Sr. Voldemort's Dad Voldemort's Grandmother Voldemort's Grandad With special recognition to Crouch Jr., who didn't technically die but had his soul sucked out. Cindy (who somehow looked right past all of this carnage) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 22:19:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:19:57 -0000 Subject: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 In-Reply-To: <9qiaa3+4u2u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qibqd+k3ms@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27777 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., suki_willoughby at y... wrote: > > I think it's highly unlikely that Draco will become a Prefect. Can > anyone provide reasons to think otherwise aside from wishful (well, > not on my part) thinking and an interesting plot turn? > I can provide the best, most believable, most real-life reason possible: political connections. I suspect that a few well-placed donations and a nudge from the Minister of Magic, and Draco is a shoe- in for prefect. Cindy (wishing everything worth having were merit-based, but acknowledging that it is not) From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 22:31:08 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:31:08 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <3BCC7D37.3070506@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qicfc+mco9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27778 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Just for grins, I pulled out Book Magazine's article (May/June 2000). Here's what they said (all based on JKR interviews & chats): > > ** They all fall in love with the wrong people (hmmm.... did any of > them really fall in love? Seems overplayed to me) It's true that "in love" isn't quite right. But to be fair, Harry asks Cho out and is rebuffed; Ginny is still crushing on Harry and misses her chance to go to the ball with him when she accepts Neville's invitation. Neville had already asked Hermione, who was going with Viktor (THAT'S the wrong person in spades, I believe). Ron asks Fleur out...Harry and Ron go to the ball with Parvati and Padma, who wind up with Beauxbatons boys...there are quite a number of "wrong" people, IMO. > ** The first truly evil female character makes her debut This is interesting. Either JKR changed her mind about including this character or making her female, or we have yet to find out how truly evil a female character introduced in GoF is (Fleur, anyone? Nah, me neither.) > ** There will be "a number of deaths, including that of one > character readers have grown to love" (okay, so we grew to know > Cedric better over the course of GoF, but most everyone assumed the > death would be someone we *already* knew ... and GoF hardly > features a "number" of deaths) Actually, the book starts off with "a number of deaths." There's Tom Riddle's dad and grandparents and Frank Bryce; later, Barty Crouch, Sr. is killed by his son, we hear of Bertha Jorkins' death, Cedric is killed, of course (although I also think the "grown to love" description is high-flown) and finally, Barty Crouch, Jr. experiences the dementor's kiss, arguably worse than death. So this phrase is actually quite accurate. > ** We learn why Voldemort is who he is (huh? Did we?) I thought we learned more about this in CoS, frankly. The bit about him killing his father and grandparents is hardly revealing of anything except his early capacity for revenge and disregard for life. > ** The book's ending will be very frightening indeed I'm willing to concede this, as my kids were pretty scared on their first read-through. (Consider that this includes Pettigrew--without anasthesia--amputating HIS OWN HAND.) They finally decided to proceed based on the fact that they know Harry has years 5, 6 and 7 ahead of him and therefore had to survive year 4. > So ... you might see now why I'm skeptical of things like "Ginny > will have a more important role in Book 5." I tend to > think, "Well, that's great because right now the Giant Squid has > had about as much of a role as Ginny's had so far." I like that! Maybe we'll see more of the Giant Squid...As for the Harry "fan" who will die, I'm of the firm opinion that this is Hagrid, especially since she has said it will be very painful for her to write this (or words to that effect). It seems the only logical choice. He is a classic tragic character, from his low social status (half-breed background of which he is ashamed) and quirky tendencies (dangerous creatures and too much drink) to his tragic childhood (the disappearing mother, the dead father and being expelled from Hogwarts for something he didn't do). Frankly, the character of Hagrid is downright Dickensian, but unlike Mr. Macawber, I don't think he's going to go off to Australia and take up politics. > Back to the original question though: I think JKR is deliberately > cagey, and she words things in such a way that they can be subject > to more than one interpretation. I can hardly complain about this as she is my role model . --Barb From tillrules at aol.com Tue Oct 16 22:33:11 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:33:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 Message-ID: <14b.291e4dd.28fe0fa7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27779 In a message dated 10/16/2001 3:23:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: << I can provide the best, most believable, most real-life reason possible: political connections. I suspect that a few well-placed donations and a nudge from the Minister of Magic, and Draco is a shoe- in for prefect. >> But who would Lucius Malfoy have influence over? Presuming that the choice is made by the staff (since it's doubtful that fellow students would choose the irritating Percy as a prefect, knowing his predeliction for being anal) he realy only Shape influence over Snape and only if Snape needs to keep up his "evil" facade. It is possible that Malfoy could have Snape do this as Draco's head of house. Draco may be a prefect, but its unlikely that he'll be head boy, a decision the whole staff would have to make. Especially to fit into a Draco becomes Head Boy, Hermione Head Girl and she reforms him when they fall in love thing since JKR already said that Draco & Harry (which presumably means Hermione as well) are never going to be on the same side. I'd personally like to see Ron as Head Boy to finally end the insecure "secondary to Harry" part of his personality once and for all. Harry can settle for Quidditch captain and savior of the wizarding world. From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 22:46:39 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:46:39 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <4b.12b432bf.28fddd7c@aol.com> Message-ID: <9qidcf+6ac2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27780 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., djtarb at a... wrote: > > ** The first truly evil female character makes her debut > > This could be true. We just may not kow yet that she is evil (if > she is Fleur or Madame). Or it could be Rita Skeeter, who is > certainly awful and may indeed be evil. Quite right, Diane! I had completely forgotten about Rita Skeeter. Madame Maxime seems unlikely for evildoing, however. I think JKR is trying to redeem giants' (and half-giants') images, after all. But Rita is a piece of work! I didn't associate her with the "evil female character" because I think of her as being very similar to Gilderoy Lockhart; a character who is amusing-but-not-likable (you'd slit your wrists before agreeing to go into a room with them) and who does things that are bad/wrong, but not really serving The Powers Of Evil so much as themselves. OTOH, Rita does collude with Malfoy to put things in the Daily Prophet and Witch Weekly which serve to make life difficult for Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, i.e. The Good Guys, so one COULD call her "evil," I suppose. I usually use a different adjective to describe members of the press who have misquoted me or members of my family, but that's another story. ;) --Barb From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 16 23:14:23 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:14:23 -0000 Subject: HP Characters: Three-Dimensional or Archetypes? (Harry in Particular) In-Reply-To: <3BCC7988.7010803@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qif0f+l1f7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27781 Penny wrote: > I was reading an article in Christian Century entitled "Rowling as > Moralist," and I wanted to explore one of the author's assertions. She > says: "Although Rowling's characters are convincing and engaging, none > of them is fully three-dimensional. These characters are progressively > revealed, but they don't grow or change -- not even Harry himself. As > each school year passes, Harry becomes more and ever more clearly who he > is. But that's all. His development is essentially linear." > I have a couple of problems with the assertion that NO HP characters grow or change, they just progressively reveal themselves. Let me start by taking issue with the premise of the question itself. I'm no English Lit major, but I hardly think a character has to "change or grow" to be fully three-dimensional. I always assumed the "three-dimensional" in writing referred to whether the character's personality is multi-faceted, even to the point of displaying internal conflict. Even if, as Penny indicated, it is difficult to make the case that Ron has changed or grown, he is definitely multi-faceted, and with Snape and Harry, has the most dimensions of anyone in the series. (Correct me if I misunderstand "three-dimensional" as it is used in the article). Second, I think the question itself lacks context. So far, the 4 books cover 4 years. How much "growth" (as it is defined in the article) can one expect in just four years? I know people who have shown precious little true growth over most of a lifetime. Third, the question ignores the "growth" that takes place in the backstory. The story doesn't begin when Harry gets sorted. It begins at least with the beginning of Voldemort's first reign of terror. There may have been a great deal of growth in characters who were around then, and we just haven't seen all of it -- yet. Now, even if we accept the question as legitimate, I don't think the answer is all that simple. Penny has already dealt quite nicely with Hermione, Harry and Ron, establishing that Hermione has grown the most. But what about Fudge? In PoA, he tells everyone (Marauders Map) that Voldemort alone and friendless is one thing, but give him back one of his most loyal servants (Sirius) and watch out. Then, in GoF, he "changes" 180 degrees -- refusing to accept that Voldemort has returned and willing to call Harry a delusional liar. Mrs. Weasley changed from being a loyal friend of Hermione to being willing to snub Hermione based on a magazine article. (Which was one of the less convincing "changes" in GoF, BTW). The twins have shown growth. They used to be jokesters, making trouble for the sake of a good time. Now they have gotten serious enough about it to try to make something of themselves and start a business. That's definitely growth. Hagrid has shown tremendous growth, going from being a gamekeeper about whom McGonagall has misgivings in PS/SS to being a reliable teacher who instructs Harry how to handle magical creatures he later encounters -- Buckbeak and skrewts. Sirius has undoubtedly changed a great deal if you consider the backstory of his imprisonment in Azkaban. Obviously, he's not the handsome happy wizard he was at James and Lily's wedding. I think he has come a long way from the irresponsible boy who almost got Snape killed, and has proven himself one of the most self-less characters in the books. On balance, I think that the characters have changed plenty in the series. Like many of us, they change when circumstances demand it, and not before. Cindy (thinking that only people on HP4GU should be allowed to criticize the books) From doseylel at aol.com Tue Oct 16 23:25:49 2001 From: doseylel at aol.com (doseylel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:25:49 -0000 Subject: blonds and the marauder's map Message-ID: <9qiflt+2m1v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27782 Hi, everyone. I'm new to these parts. I have a few questions, which I didn't see on the VFAQ, so, here goes. 1. Has it occurred to anyone out there that all of the blond characters in the books are antagonists? Petunia, Dudley, Draco and his mother, Lockhart, Rita Skeeter (younger, in the pensieve), the veelas (including Fleur). I don't recall any of the good guys as being blond. Just curious. 2.What happened to the Marauder's Map at the end of GoF? I know it doesn't say, but do you think Dumbledore would have wanted to know more about it? Wouldn't he have looked for it in Moody's office, after hearing Crouch's confession? Surely, with Voldie on the loose, Sirius wouldn't want Harry wandering out of bounds. Wouldn't he feel better if it were in Dumbledore's posession? And Snape is well aware of it. He would definitely want to see it confiscated from Harry. Any thoughts? Doseylel (my name is Leslie, but as there's already a Leslie here, I'll go by Doseylel. Or just Lel.) From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 23:48:04 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:48:04 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <9qibhu+7omr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qigvk+1078o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27783 Cindy wrote: > > Cedric > Frank > Bertha > Crouch Sr. > Voldemort's Dad > Voldemort's Grandmother > Voldemort's Grandad > > With special recognition to Crouch Jr., who didn't technically die > but had his soul sucked out. > > Cindy (who somehow looked right past all of this carnage) How about indirect injuries? The Longbottoms, numerous families revealed in The Pensieve chapter, Azkaban imprisonees...techincially they didn't happen IN Book 4, but we learned OF them in book four. From oppen at cnsinternet.com Wed Oct 17 00:23:06 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:23:06 -0500 Subject: Hermione and her parents Message-ID: <01f101c156a1$e5d5c500$e9c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 27784 You know, one set of people that we almost don't get to see, but for whom I have the profoundest respect, is the Doctors Granger---Hermione's parents. Hermione is, in many ways, the bravest of the Trio, and I think she gets it from her parents' example. Think about it. Her parents almost certainly knew nothing of Hogwarts and the magical world, but were willing to let their daughter go to this strange-sounding school, where they couldn't even see her off on the train. Not only couldn't they see her off, they couldn't even come to visit her at school to see how she was settling in and maybe meet a few of her new friends. I'm sure Hermione is a very good correspondent but it just wouldn't be the same. So, for months on end, they have this big Hermione-shaped hole in their household and their lives, and they have little or no way to even vicariously share their daughter's experiences, since Hogwarts is so different from other British schools (edible food, comfortable quarters, and so on---when I was younger, my parents used to threaten to send me to a British school if I fouled up, in the same way they'd have threatened me with the Russian Front if we had been WWII-era Germans). Or _is_ it impossible for them to visit? If Hermione had been Triwizard Champ instead of Harry, would the Grangers have been allowed onto the sacred grounds of Hogwarts? Harry wondered briefly if the Dursleys _had_ shown up to watch him in the Third Task...come to it, weren't Moaning Myrtle's parents Muggles? In the flashback in CoS, Dumbledore mentions that they'd be arriving for their daughter's body...and Draco Malfoy mentions to the Polyjuice-disguised Ron and Harry that "the last time the Chamber was opened, a Mudblood _died._" If Malfoy's statement about Myrtle being a Mudblood is correct, this argues strongly for at least _some_ Muggles being allowed into Hogwarts and Hogsmeade, although this may well be an exception. Then, they do get her back for the summer, but she's changing and growing in ways where they can't necessarily provide guidance...and they may sometimes see a grim look in her eyes when she's thinking. Or she may have bad dreams about being Petrified, or about Voldemort, or the Triwizard Tourney. Whether they like it or not, their little girl's growing away from them, and not even in the normal, usual way girls of her age and class do in Britain. In future books, Hermione may well have to deal not just with being involved in Voldemort War II, but wrestling with how much to tell her parents. Can she confide in them without them freaking and wanting to remove her from Hogwarts? On the other hand, are they necessarily better off not knowing what's out there? I doubt that Voldemort or the DEs would hestitate to go after the Doctors Granger if Hermione herself proved to be a serious fly in their ointment. From hexicon at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 01:17:53 2001 From: hexicon at yahoo.com (Kristen ) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 01:17:53 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <9qidcf+6ac2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qim81+ijq0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27785 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Barb" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., djtarb at a... wrote: > > > ** The first truly evil female character makes her debut > > > > This could be true. We just may not kow yet that she is evil (if > > she is Fleur or Madame). Or it could be Rita Skeeter, who is > > certainly awful and may indeed be evil. > > Quite right, Diane! I had completely forgotten about Rita Skeeter. > Madame Maxime seems unlikely for evildoing, however. I think JKR is > trying to redeem giants' (and half-giants') images, after all. But > Rita is a piece of work! I didn't associate her with the "evil > female character" because I think of her as being very similar to > Gilderoy Lockhart; a character who is amusing-but-not-likable (you'd > slit your wrists before agreeing to go into a room with them) and who > does things that are bad/wrong, but not really serving The Powers Of > Evil so much as themselves. OTOH, Rita does collude with Malfoy to > put things in the Daily Prophet and Witch Weekly which serve to make > life difficult for Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, i.e. The Good Guys, so > one COULD call her "evil," I suppose. I usually use a different > adjective to describe members of the press who have misquoted me or > members of my family, but that's another story. ;) > > --Barb What about the woman "with thick, shining dark hair and heavily hooded eyes" we meet in "The Pensieve" chapter of GoF? I think most agree that she is the Mrs. Lestrange referred to in "The Death Eaters." I suspect we'll see more of her--though her brief appearance in GoF is really more of a cameo than a "debut." From degroote at altavista.com Wed Oct 17 01:39:30 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 16 Oct 2001 18:39:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents Message-ID: <20011017013930.18534.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27786 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 02:02:45 2001 From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 02:02:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's Isolation (was HP Characters: Three Dimensional or Archetypes) In-Reply-To: <9qi71n+j256@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qios5+f10f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27787 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jenny from ravenclaw" wrote: > > Harry's biggest inner conflict, IMO, is that he is and always will be >different than others. He is, literally, a branded man, the Boy Who > Lived. I agree with you Penny, that Harry will become isolated from > his two best friends in OoP and that there were some pretty hints of > it in GoF. His isolation is something he may need to do in order to > look inside himself. > --jenny from ravenclaw, always the first to defend her dear Harry > ********************************** I agree that he will become isolated, probably deliberate on his part. The death of Cedric will continue to haunt him in book five, maybe to the point of his becoming a bit paralysed with fear, not for himself but for his friends. He might keep away from them because he thinks that will protect them. In the first three books everything turned out all right in the end, even though Ron was knocked of the horse in SS/PS, and broke his leg in POA, and Hermione was striken by the basilisk in COS, and trapped underwater in GOF in one of the tasks. Up until Cedric's death, Harry thought like a child, not realizing the consequences of fighting evil. I think the end of GOF marks the end of Harry's childhood in a way. Perhaps the next book will deal with Harry's attempts to overcome his fear, and maybe it won't be that easily overcome. This would be a good way to move Neville's growth along too. He could help Harry because he understands fear, and in doing so could exorcise some of his own fears. Donna (Neville fan) From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 02:37:46 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What Did Dumbledore Know And When Did He Know It? In-Reply-To: <20011016152941.13608.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011017023747.21389.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27788 Good points... but who's to say Dumbledore hadn't wanted Harry to see the memories in the Pensieve... because if you think about the Tom Riddle dairy is a form of a Pensieve, and since we all seem to be looking at Dumbledore as a fathering/mature mentor... maybe he did want Harry to learn more about his past... since if you think about it, anything dealing with Vol has to do with Harry's past, even if it happened before Harry was alive or too young to remember. Plus maybe the Pensieve comes back to help Harry learn more about his parents. Who know's??? > > And the times he appears to be a bit careless > (leaving the Pensieve > > out when he knew > > Harry would be in his office). > > Fudge shows up unexpectedly while Dumbledore is > using the Pensieve, he puts it away rather hastily > and > the door to the cupboard doesn't quite latch. D > doesn't notice this, why should he? Just a little > slip. > > All these various slips prove is Dumbledore, > though a great wizard, is neither omniscient nor > omnipotent. A character who never made mistakes > would > be quite dull. Plus... we all know JKR always has a reason for us and Harry to learn something and the way he learns things is just as important as what those things are.... :) Laura Waid > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 17 03:21:08 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 03:21:08 -0000 Subject: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?) In-Reply-To: <9ptn59+9vng@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qitf4+pk0g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27789 > > Luke wrote: > > > > > Oops, I somehow missed your comment about the lights going out in > > my > > > response to Boggarts' abilities to take on the powers of their > form > > > counterparts. Now that puts an interesting spin on things as > proof > > > that Boggarts do have some ability to affect physical changes. > > > Interesting. > > > The difference from my ealier assertions is that I now have > no specific support for my claims like I did before when it seemed > likely that the boggart could only harness psychological effects. Oh > well. I think I stated the first time this came up (at a time when I > was saying much more intelligent things, BTW) that it's also possible > that boggarts only have as much power as there is fear in their > target. Or belief, for that matter. Such as, the boggart could only > harm you if you feared/believed it could. Good grief! I cannot believe I am *still* thinking about the powers of these darn boggarts. I just can't let go until we figure this out. Forgive me for bringing this us up just one more time, but I have to know if the following rambling idea makes any sense at all. OK. We've established that a boggart takes on some powers of the thing it impersonates, otherwise the lights wouldn't dim when the boggart turns into a dementor. In addition to extinguishing the lights like a real dementor does, I think there is another thing about boggarts that suggests that they really do take on the characteristics of the thing they are supposed to be. Remember in the maze when Harry fights the boggart? He first believes it is a dementor, so he conjures a patronus. What does the boggart do? It falls back and retreats, just like a real dementor would. Lupin told us that Ridiculus is the spell for fighting a boggart, not Expecto Patronum. So a boggart shouldn't be bothered at all by a patronus; it ought to just keep right on coming, shouldn't it? So now we have some evidence that boggarts take on the powers of the thing they impersonate (dimming lights), and we see that they react in the same way as the thing they impersonate (retreating when confronted by a patronus). But then again, the maze boggart doesn't become a perfect version of the dementor, does it? No, because it trips, and dementors don't trip. So that suggests that the boggart has some of the powers of the thing it becomes, but it doesn't become a perfect replica and gets some details or characteristics wrong. (This idea is consistent with Lupin explaining to the students that he has seen boggarts get confused and become half a slug.) As applied to Lupin, then, the reason Lupin doesn't transform when confronted by a boggart moon might have nothing to do with how he feels, whether he is especially talented or experienced, whether he has fear, or whether he drank his potion recently. It could be simply that the boggart is doing the best it can to impersonate the moon and behave like the moon, but hasn't gotten the details right, just like its counterpart in the maze. The devil is in the details, as they say. Cindy (who swears that she will try very hard to give it a rest now) From jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 17 07:37:44 2001 From: jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk (Janie) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:37:44 -0000 Subject: Why CoS is the least favorite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qjcg8+hrkv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27790 I like CoS because it has Ginny in it! I also like it because Harry isn't totally the focus of the story, it also has the added human interest thing, with Ginny being captured by Tom Riddle. BUT i know that a lot of people prefer the other books, especially Gof, and to be honest, that has a lot more excitement than CoS, but i like it! Janie xxx --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maxwell Simpson wrote: > Although I like the book, I think the main problem is that 1, 3, and 4 have things which HP doesn't. > > 1) The introductory book is excellent. It introduces everything about Harry, it has the Mirror of Erised, and I think Voldie was very intriguing in thise one. > > 3) It has Lupin, a fan-favorite, it has Boggarts, it has Hogsmeade, it has a guy breaking out of jail, it has a surprising and complex ending, and it has Sirius Black in his less criminal form, who is a very nice guy, once you get to know him. Plus it really tells alot of the back story, and everyone loves that. > > 4) The newest, it has the World Cup, it has far more Weasleys than any other previous book, it has the Triwizard Competition, and it has the rebirth of Voldemort. > > Book two is nice, it introduces the Weasley family, Tom Riddle, and House Elves. All three are very important. It introduces Penelope Clearwater, who isn't particually important, but she could be. It has Lockhart, who _I_ found amusing (I voiced him with a cross between Troy McLure of the Simpsons and another pompous person. Very deep, very loud.) It also explains why Hagrid was kicked out of Hogwarts. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Oct 17 07:47:28 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:47:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <9qhokq+1v75@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011017074728.28407.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27791 caliburncy at yahoo.com ha scritto: No: HPFGUIDX 27792 Did anyone else notice the 'strange gleam of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes? I have a theory about that if anyone is interested. could it be that dumbledore was expecting this and has been proved right? OR could it be that Dumbledore is going to turn, perhaps in the next book? If this does happen then im guessing that Harry will be trained up enough to cope and even take dumbledore's place at the head of the magical community (that is, the community that won't look the other way like fudge will). OR could it be because Dumbledore knows exactly how he can defeat Voldemort again, using harry. And another thing. JK has sown a seed of doubt in my mind about how faithful dumbledore will be to good magic, BUT could Dumbledore actually be related in some way to Voldemort? I've been wondering that for a while now, and it's starting to puzzle me, What do people think? love n bubbles, Janie xxx From jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 17 12:45:16 2001 From: jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk (Janie) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:45:16 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and Sirius Black (Crookshanks is Figg) In-Reply-To: <9qi3a3+n3q6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qjugs+aksl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27793 Does anyone else think that if crookshanks is Mrs Figg, then the cat could also be related to Arabella. If arabella actually turns out to BE mrs figg then this would be very logical as crookshanks arrived just when Harry was needing someone to protect him (or the magical community believed harry needed someone to protect him) from Sirius escaping, and this could be the person! (if that makes any sense, feel free to comment on it!!!) Luv Janie x --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorothydch at y... wrote: > I think Crookshanks is Mrs.Figg. Mrs. Figg did break her leg > hence "crook" "shank". This cat just happen to have never been bought > before. Crookshanks attacked Wormtail in the store with Ron. > Afterwards, she charmed Hermione into buying her. > > Maybe the letter that Dumbledore left the Dursley's when Harry was a > baby indicated that they could call on Mrs. Figg for care of Harry. > Since the Dursley's only call on her in regards to Harry. > > Dumbeldore may have wanted extra protection of Harry at Hogwarts, > just as he brought in Mad Eye Moody. > > To make a real stretch Dumbledore used a spell that protected Harry > in the presence of his relatives ... maybe Figg is a relative. Also, > I think Dumbledore is a relative. He caught on to Madeye Moody > because he said the real Mad eye would have never taken Harry away > from his presence after Cedric was killed. > > Now a real strecth Mrs. Figg could be Dumbledore's sister (around the > same age) he trust her as part of the "old gang" > > Dorothy > > One last thing Dumbledore would have never left Harry with the > Dursley's with just a lette (we still do not know what was in the > letter) and without proper protection. He was also very careful that > he would not be overwhelmed by his fame at a young age. Although > throughout the years with the Dursley's many people from the magic > community approached him. Which leads to the question of how many did > he not see. > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MeriLeslie26 at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 10/16/2001 9:51:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > frances at f... writes: > > > > > > > Hi. I'm just listening to PoA and hadn't realized how much > Crookshanks > > > protects Sirius. Any thoughts on whether Crookshanks used to be > Sirius' > > > cat? > > > > > > Frances > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think so because in GoF Sirius says that it took him awhile > to gain > > the cat's trust. If it was his cat wouldn't it have already trust > him? > > > > Leslie > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MeriLeslie26 at aol.com Wed Oct 17 13:02:11 2001 From: MeriLeslie26 at aol.com (MeriLeslie26 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:02:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore/Voldemort Message-ID: <97.1cc6e923.28fedb53@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27794 In a message dated 10/17/2001 6:07:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk writes: > Did anyone else notice the 'strange gleam of triumph' in Dumbledore's > eyes? I have a theory about that if anyone is interested. could it be > that dumbledore was expecting this and has been proved right? OR > could it be that Dumbledore is going to turn, perhaps in the next > book? If this does happen then I'm guessing that Harry will be trained > up enough to cope and even take dumbledore's place at the head of the > magical community (that is, the community that won't look the other > way like fudge will). > > I am sure this has been discussed before on this list, but I am new and would like to reply to this. IMO, the look of triumph has to do with a way to beat Voldemort. Maybe by taking Harry's blood or performing that particular ritual, Voldemort has given Dumbledore a means of triumphing over him. I have though about this a lot and IMO I believe that the love that Harry carries around in his blood will be the down fall of Voldemort. Dumbledore said that the one thing that Voldemort could never understand was love. Harry's mother gave him a protection of love, which ended up killing Voldemort. Now that same protection has passed onto Voldemort through the use of Harry's blood. Maybe it will change Voldemort imperceptibly at first, but who knows. Will that same love begin to affect him in unknown ways? Will this be a chink in his armor of hate? Love is a powerful weapon and usually more powerful as a weapon inside your enemy. Because that will cause dramatic change to the point of your enemy becoming your friend. Who knows. Leslie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 15:11:32 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:11:32 -0000 Subject: Draco as Prefect In-Reply-To: <9qiaa3+4u2u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qk734+oa88@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27795 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., suki_willoughby at y... wrote: > [snip] > > > ...AND...Hermione has to work side-by-side with the git! I bet > > on her becoming prefect and *then* Head Girl, right along with Head Boy Draco Malfoy. The tension, conflict, and possibilities > > (*and* plausibility!) are at a maximum with this combination, and I'm making it *my* hard-and-fast prediction. Ron and Harry may be > > getting the shaft, but I don't think either will become a prefect. > > > > --Jepetta > > **de-lurking momentarily** > > Okay, not that it isn't within the realm of possiblity but where is > any evidence that Draco Malfoy would become a Prefect, let alone > Head Boy? When compared with Percy (the most well drawn Prefect > thus far in the Canon), Draco lacks the two most obvious > characteristics that would qualify one to become a Prefect, i.e., > ability to follow rules and high marks academically. Oh, the possibilities! I'd hate to be in Hermione's shoes if she ever has to penalize Harry & Ron for something they did to Draco! I'm even starting to see the possibility of a H/D ship (as much as I root for H/R). Rehashing a prior ramble of mine, I think that Draco is definitely prefect material for the House of Slytherin. For one, his father is incredibly well connected. And Draco is a leader in his House, or at the very least, of his class. Crabbe & Goyle follow him like puppies, and his other class-mates follow his lead. He is a prime example of a Slytherin student; ambitious, crafty, and willing to use any means to get what he wants. And being an outstanding meber of your house probably counts for something when prefects are selected. Additionally, I think that Draco is probably an excellent student. Why? He's got to live up to Daddy's expectations. In CoS, Lucius Malfoy says to Mr. Borgin, "...if his grades don't pick up..." and to Draco, "I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam." Draco is probably an above average student without having to try (much like Harry). But after being insulted by his father, he's probably trying very hard to win his father's approval. It would be intersting to see how Lucius would react if Hermione was chosen Head Girl, but Draco was passed over for Head Boy.... - Denise From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Oct 17 15:47:18 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:47:18 -0000 Subject: Draco as Prefect prediction In-Reply-To: <9qiaa3+4u2u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qk966+t5on@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27796 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., suki_willoughby at y... wrote: > [snip] > > Draco lacks the two most obvious characteristics that > would qualify one to become a Prefect, i.e., ability to follow > rules and high marks academically. Draco has been known to break > the rules numerous times (one incident particularly infuriating to > the staff was the Faux-Dementor stunt) and there is simply ZERO > evidence that he excelled at his studies. Who said you have to follow rules? James Potter was one of the worst discipline problems ever at Hogwarts, and Tom Riddle actually killed a girl. No, what is important is the abiity to play politics, work the system, impress the faculty and suck up to the administration. These Draco does admirably. 4FR From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 15:49:45 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents In-Reply-To: <20011017013930.18534.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <20011017154945.26406.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27797 Exactly how much does Hermione tell Mum and Dad about her terms at Hogwarts? I mean imagine the conversations: Book I: Mum/Dad: So dear, how do you like your new school? Hermione: Oh it's great, I got top marks and made two really good friends when I was nearly killed by a mountain troll, oh and Harry, Ron and I had to stop an evil wizard from stealing the Philosopher's stone and we nearly got chomped by a three headed dog, strangled by a magical plant and Ron was knocked cold by an animate chess piece. Book II Mum/Dad: How was your school year, honey? Hermione: Not bad, except for getting petrified by a basilisk. Oh and I found out there are some wizards who think Muggle born people like me are dirt and want us all dead. Book III Mum/Dad: Did you have a good year, sweetheart? Hermione: Kind of hectic actually. I was using this time turner so I could take more classes and it really exhausted me. An escaped wizard murderer was after Harry, at least we thought he was, Ron's pet ran turned out to be an animagi and our Defense against the Dark Arts instructor was a werewolf. Oh, and these really creepy things called Dementors nearly killed us all. Book IV Mum/Dad: I'm almost afraid to ask but how was this year, Hermione? Hermione: Well I got asked out on my first date by a Bulgarian Quidditch star who wants me to visit him this summer. I was kidnapped by merpeople and one of the students was murdered by Voldemort who's regained his power and is out to take over the wizarding world. Something tells me Hermione is less than totally honest about what happens during termtime at Hogwarts.....;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From tillrules at aol.com Wed Oct 17 16:01:53 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:01:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Prefect prediction Message-ID: <11b.5facf11.28ff0571@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27798 In a message dated 10/17/2001 8:55:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fourfuries at aol.com writes: << Who said you have to follow rules? James Potter was one of the worst discipline problems ever at Hogwarts, and Tom Riddle actually killed a girl. No, what is important is the abiity to play politics, work the system, impress the faculty and suck up to the administration. These Draco does admirably. >> But the only member of the faculty that we've seen him impress is Snape and we're not sure how much of that is Snape playing his role in front of Draco (who presumably would report to Lucius). We know that McGonnogal & Hagrid don't like him and Dumbledore knows him for what he is. We're not sure on the others, but if its a staight faculty vote, only one need dislike him to deny him election (presuming that Dumbledore votes against him). And remember the new DADA teacher is going to be a Dumbledore appointment and its unlikely that given the tenor of the times that he would choose someone who would be sympathetic to the son of Lucius Malfoy (a major dark wizard). As I said before, he may be a prefect if Snape has to choose him to further his disguise as a returned death eater. But if that's ntot eh case, I can't see him being a prefect and certainly not Head Boy. From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Oct 17 16:07:32 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:07:32 -0000 Subject: HP Characters: Three-Dimensional or Archetypes? (Harry in Particular) In-Reply-To: <9qi71n+j256@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qkac4+uil2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27799 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jenny from ravenclaw" wrote: > I really liked this, Penny! > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > > > "Although Rowling's characters are convincing and engaging, none of > them is fully three-dimensional. These characters are progressively > revealed, but they don't grow or change -- not even Harry himself. As > each school year passes, Harry becomes more and ever more clearly who > he is. But that's all. His development is essentially linear."> > > I disagree with that comment. How is Harry not growing if he is > becoming more and more who he is? Harry just found out who he is four > years ago! > Personally, I am praying for some linear development of my own! I'll never forget going to my 10 year high school reunion and seeing one of a pair of twins that I had known in school but had not seen since graduation. I told him he looked the same as when we were kids (even though I wasn't sure which twin he was), and he remarked "I find that as we get older, we become more like ourselves, as opposed to less." I thought that was profound at the time (though my opinion may have have been influenced by the beer and such), and today I know it is true. If each of us has a personality, character, soul, spirit or whatever you want to call it that is unique and personal to us, it only makes sense that this complex thing should be rather linear in its development, and only reveal itself over time. The real question is whether HP characters are generally shallow and superficial. I think the answer with respect to the trio, Dumbledore, Hagrid, and a few others is clearly no. With respect to Minerva, Sirius, Lupin and the like, the jury may still be out. And for a host of bit players, the answer is definitely yes. And so what? That is what bit players are for. Further, as one poster wrote, I know some real life people who are shallow, superficial and one dimensional. In fact, one commentator said that the narrowness of personal identity is a first step in making a fanatic, of which there are all kinds, so one dimensionalism may be a common flaw of human personality. 4FR (whose joy has been somewhat stolen by certain one dimensional fanatics, and by the knee jerk caricatures that think We should feel Their pain). From kidzero7 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 17 17:27:30 2001 From: kidzero7 at hotmail.com (kidzero7 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:27:30 -0000 Subject: Background Characters coming to the Foreground? Message-ID: <9qkf22+m3jb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27800 One of the things I love about the Harry Potter series is the abundance of minor and 'background' characters roaming the halls of Hogwarts. When I reread the series, I always find myself imagining the going-ons of these characters. My question is this: Has JK hinted at in her books or in the press that some of these background characters will come to the foreground? I'm thinking that some of the "mudbloods" will play a bigger part if JK decides to really make the "blood issue" a focus of the series or one of her books. Characters I'd personally like to learn more about are Dean Thomas, Lee Jordan, Cho Chang, Padma and Parvati Patil, and Justin Finch- Fletchley. Also, though it's not canon by any stretch... The Harry Potter Trading Card game requires that you choose a Character card before play. They have characters you'd expect to be able to play like Harry, Ron, Hermione, Snape, Flitwick, etc, but two minor characters that are playable are Dean Thomas and Hannah Abbott. It makes me wonder if JK had some input on what characters should be used and that possibly these 2 characters will play bigger roles by the end of the series. What do you think? From lucy at luphen.co.uk Wed Oct 17 18:13:14 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:13:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Dumbledore have a look of triumph? References: <9pm6nc+qt7o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007101c15737$862e8ce0$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27801 Sorry if this has already been answered, I'm still desperately trying to catch up after a week away! I've wondered about this look of triumph a lot too, and the best suggestion I can come with is this: Trelawney's first true prediction was something on the lines of 'Voldemort can only be defeated when it appears all defences have failed'. Dumbledore would therefore be pleased that Harry had lost one line of defence as it means Voldemort's eventual defeat is more likely. I'm happy to hear other theories though, as I'm desperate to find out!!! Lucy, still fighting to keep the emails under control! ----- Original Message ----- From: robin_mcdonagh at hotmail.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 7:01 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Dumbledore have a look of triumph? At the end of book four, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, as Harry explains that Wormtail took some of his blood, put it in the cauldron so that Voldemort could touch him again, Dumbledore looks up with a look like truimph, which Harry says is quickly gone. I'm not sure where, but I'm sure that I saw on a very reliable site a copy of an interview, where someone asks that very question. J.K. said that she won't tell why, but she is sure that someone will guess. Is it obvious to anyone? Not to me. Please, if anyone has any ideas, it would be appreciated if you could post your ideas. I know that there are more pressing questions, but this one really has me stumped, with hardly a guess as to why he could have had this reaction. If you would like to email me directly, I am at robin_mcdonagh at hotmail.com. Thank you for reading my ever-so-interesting bullitin about nothing. ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Oct 17 18:37:30 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:37:30 -0000 Subject: Draco as Prefect prediction In-Reply-To: <11b.5facf11.28ff0571@aol.com> Message-ID: <9qkj5a+l1l6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27802 Canon has no yet revealed, but I suspect that the head of each hosue has near unilateral discretion in choosing the prefects from his house, absent strong disagreement from faculty, or Dumbledore's veto. Herefore, it is a high liklihood that Draco will be a prefect, and I agree with the posters who have said how much fun that will be. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > > But the only member of the faculty that we've seen him impress is Snape and > we're not sure how much of that is Snape playing his role in front of Draco > (who presumably would report to Lucius). We know that McGonnogal & Hagrid > don't like him and Dumbledore knows him for what he is. We're not sure on > the others, but if its a staight faculty vote, only one need dislike him to > deny him election (presuming that Dumbledore votes against him). From heidit at netbox.com Wed Oct 17 19:14:08 2001 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:14:08 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and Dumbledore's Gleam In-Reply-To: <9qjugs+aksl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qkla0+itus@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27803 JKR has already said in an interview that Crookshanks is a Kneazle. A kneazle is a magical creature, described in fantastic beasts and where to find them (one of the "schoolbooks" that JKR wrote and which were published last spring for Comic Relief UK (they're about to be released in hardcover form, again for charity. Buy one!)). Kneazles are proficient at helping owners find their way home, and are known for spotting people who are shady or otherwise "nasty"- you might want to review our Magical Creatures faq or steve vanderark's lexicon at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/index.html. Also, in an interview, jkr said that crookshanks is part kneazle. In the march messages, after FBaWTFT and before the interview there was much lively discussion of whether crookshanks had kneazle blood, because of his reaction to Wormtail. And, btw, there has also been discussion of whether crookshanks' nonreaction to draco on the train is a point on the Not Completely Evil At Present chart. Also a lot of discussion has ensued here about Dumbledore's gleam. It's mentioned in the VFAQ - a very valuable resource for anyone who cares to read an overview of the over 35,000 posts to this group. It's a lot to read through, I know (no, you don't have to), but it is a good idea to look over the VFAQ at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/VFAQ.htm and visit the group's FAQs, which are a series of wonderful essays. You can find them through the VFAQ. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Janie" wrote: > Does anyone else think that if crookshanks is Mrs Figg, then the cat > could also be related to Arabella. If arabella actually turns out to > BE mrs figg then this would be very logical as crookshanks arrived > just when Harry was needing someone to protect him (or the magical > community believed harry needed someone to protect him) from Sirius > escaping, and this could be the person! (if that makes any sense, > feel free to comment on it!!!) > From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 17 19:19:30 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:19:30 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks and Dumbledore's Gleam In-Reply-To: <9qkla0+itus@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qklk2+ftr6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27804 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidit at n... wrote: > It's a lot to read through, I know (no, you don't have to), but it is > a good idea to look over the VFAQ at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% > 20Files/VFAQ.htm and visit the group's FAQs, which are a series of > wonderful essays. You can find them through the VFAQ. > Along those lines, are the VFAQs a work in progress, and if so, do we have an expected completion date for things like character summaries? Cindy From fourfuries at aol.com Wed Oct 17 20:05:39 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:05:39 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <9qicfc+mco9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qkoaj+trg4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27805 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Barb" wrote: > > ** The first truly evil female character makes her debut > > This is interesting. Either JKR changed her mind about including > this character or making her female, or we have yet to find out how > truly evil a female character introduced in GoF is (Fleur, anyone? > Nah, me neither.) > How 'bout Rita Skeeter? From lucy at luphen.co.uk Wed Oct 17 20:19:56 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:19:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hatred of ancient Magic vs. HP Magic References: <20011007204609.1401.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004701c15749$3bdc3180$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27806 Who says the magic's not real? It's very real to me, and seeing as I've had the misfortune to be born a Muggle, my one hope is that when I have children, they might be wizards, and Dumbledore might let us inside Hogwarts occasionally - what about Parents Evening? :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Szabina Snape To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Hatred of ancient Magic vs. HP Magic --- "Mindy C.L." wrote: > 1. How long does a werewolf remain in his state -- > 24 hours? less? more? Szabina: From everything I've read a werewolf remains in wolf form only while the moon is up. If this weren't the case Lupin would never be seen the morning after a full moon. > 2. Does a werewolf transform only upon SEEING the > moon, or does it happen > automatically on the eve of the full moon? Szabina: The transformation occurs AUTOMATICALLY when a full moon rises. Otherwise, avoiding transformation would be ridiculously easy--stay inside and cover the windows. > The magic and witchcraft > contained in all > these books are not real! WHEN WILL THESE PEOPLE WHO > ARE AGAINST THE HP > BOOKS GET IT??? Szabina: When everyone in the world learns to use their mind and look beneath the facade of the easy answer. ===== >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 20:39:55 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:39:55 -0000 Subject: Idle musings on Book Six In-Reply-To: <9qkoaj+trg4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qkqar+q0a5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27807 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Barb" wrote: > > > ** The first truly evil female character makes her debut > > > > This is interesting. Either JKR changed her mind about including > > this character or making her female, or we have yet to find out how > > truly evil a female character introduced in GoF is (Fleur, anyone? > > Nah, me neither.) > > > > > How 'bout Rita Skeeter? Annoying? Yes. Should be completely stricken from GOF (IMO)? Yes. A disgrace to witches and journalism? Yes. Evil? No. I don't think we can classify Rita under that category of "truly evil". If she's evil, then Dobby and Lockhart are too...because they irritate me just as much. I think she's just there as someone to hate and be annoyed with. I doubt she's even intelligent enough to be truly evil. -Megan, who obviously has issues with the character of Rita Skeeter From jepetta at hotmail.com Wed Oct 17 21:03:05 2001 From: jepetta at hotmail.com (jepetta at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:03:05 -0000 Subject: Draco as Prefect In-Reply-To: <9qk734+oa88@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qkrm9+rtck@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27808 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., suki_willoughby at y... wrote: > > [snip] > > > > > ...AND...Hermione has to work side-by-side with the git! I bet > > > on her becoming prefect and *then* Head Girl, right along with > Head Boy Draco Malfoy. The tension, conflict, and possibilities > > > (*and* plausibility!) are at a maximum with this combination, and > I'm making it *my* hard-and-fast prediction. Ron and Harry may be > > > getting the shaft, but I don't think either will become a prefect. > > > > > > --Jepetta > > > > **de-lurking momentarily** > > > > Okay, not that it isn't within the realm of possiblity but where is > > any evidence that Draco Malfoy would become a Prefect, let alone > > Head Boy? When compared with Percy (the most well drawn Prefect > > thus far in the Canon), Draco lacks the two most obvious > > characteristics that would qualify one to become a Prefect, i.e., > > ability to follow rules and high marks academically. > > > > > Oh, the possibilities! I'd hate to be in Hermione's shoes if she > ever has to penalize Harry & Ron for something they did to Draco! > I'm even starting to see the possibility of a H/D ship (as much as I > root for H/R). > > Rehashing a prior ramble of mine, I think that Draco is definitely > prefect material for the House of Slytherin. For one, his father is > incredibly well connected. And Draco is a leader in his House, or at > the very least, of his class. Crabbe & Goyle follow him like > puppies, and his other class-mates follow his lead. He is a prime > example of a Slytherin student; ambitious, crafty, and willing to use > any means to get what he wants. And being an outstanding meber of > your house probably counts for something when prefects are selected. > > Additionally, I think that Draco is probably an excellent student. > Why? He's got to live up to Daddy's expectations. In CoS, Lucius > Malfoy says to Mr. Borgin, "...if his grades don't pick up..." and to > Draco, "I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no > wizard family beat you in every exam." Draco is probably an above > average student without having to try (much like Harry). But after > being insulted by his father, he's probably trying very hard to win > his father's approval. > > It would be intersting to see how Lucius would react if Hermione was > chosen Head Girl, but Draco was passed over for Head Boy.... > > - Denise That would also be interesting and fun; I can definitely see the point of those who are saying that the Hogwarts staff as a whole would never make Draco Head Boy. He could still be a seventh- year prefect alongside our Hermione, and it would be almost as tension-filled...maybe more so, with an angry Lucius looking on. I have to stand by my prediction that he *will* be made a prefect next year, though, because --As said very nicely above, he *probably* gets very good grades. --Who else could the next male Slytherin prefect be? Crabbe or Goyle? Hardly. They're followers, supplicants, the "big dumb jocks" of the series. We haven't really been exposed to the rest of the candidates, but since some of the new Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff prefects are presumably going to have to be relative unknowns, I would hope that JKR gives us a few prefects that we are already fairly acquainted with. --It would be fun, interesting, and full of possibilities! We've covered that already. Author's dream. --He's got more political clout and money behind him than any other student in Hogwarts--Hey, it got him on the Quidditch team, presumably, right? --Troublemakers *can* be given the position. (James Potter!!!) Percy may not have been the prototype prefect, you know; he's just the one we've had the most experience with thus far. --Um, Snape, Snape, and Snape! All good reasons. I was not saying earlier, by any means, that I thought Hermione and Draco as Head Boy and Girl = love, romance, cooperation, etc. I was actually saying that the absence of all this would hopefully mean some very tense situations--with Draco in a power position, the Hogwarts staff expecting nothing but perfection, and the boys, well, being themselves, Hermione could have conflicts involving ethics, loyalty, morals, and safety on her hands. I can't wait! Anyway, I'm not a shipper; I only predict what I personally think is most likely to happen, and a Hermione/Draco affair in the future books is, in my opinion, about as likely as Hagrid getting a sex change. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be all adorable and/or passionate if it *did* happen (No, I'm not talking about the sex change anymore), but that, my friends, is what fan fiction is for. :) --Jepetta From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 17 21:37:30 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:37:30 -0500 Subject: VFAQs vs. the FAQs References: <9qklk2+ftr6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BCDFA1A.2040109@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27809 Hi -- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote: > > Along those lines, are the VFAQs a work in progress, and if so, do we > have an expected completion date for things like character summaries? The VFAQs *and* the FAQs are both works-in-progress, indeed. We do update the VFAQs every so often to include things we notice are being asked fairly frequently. If there's something you think needs to be added to the VFAQs, by all means, drop us a line at Hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com To clear up any confusion, the FAQs are a series of topical essays on virtually everything HP-related that we've discussed on HP4GU to date. We are thinking of having Joywitch the Contest-meister run a contest to choose a new name for the FAQs: something less similar to VFAQs. The VFAQs are: Very Frequently Asked Questions. This document is in a Q&A format, and all members *are* expected to be familiar with it. If you haven't read it at all (or lately), here's the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm (you may need to reconstruct the link) The VFAQS, for example, do contain answers to some of the questions posed earlier today (the infamous "Did anyone else notice the Gleam in Dumbledore's Eye," (yes) and "Are Mrs. Figg & Arabella Figg of the old crowd the same person?" (yes)). By contrast, the FAQs, as I said above, are not necessarily Q&A format (although some of them are). Most of them are long essays on a range of HP-related topics. We have a FAQs Committee, and yes, the FAQs that are not "live" at the moment are being drafted by someone. I've forwarded Cindy's query to the FAQs group, asking for a status update myself. :--) Here's the link to the FAQs -- please take a look at them when you have time (we think they're worth the time): http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ Again, hopefully more of the FAQs will be completed & uploaded soon. I know it's about time for me to think about updating some of mine (huge, exaggerated sigh). :--) Penny From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 17 21:47:05 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:47:05 -0000 Subject: Evil or Irritating (WAS Idle musings on Book Six) In-Reply-To: <9qkqar+q0a5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qku8p+4i7n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27810 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: > Annoying? Yes. Should be completely stricken from GOF (IMO)? Yes. > A disgrace to witches and journalism? Yes. > Evil? No. > > I don't think we can classify Rita under that category of "truly > evil". If she's evil, then Dobby and Lockhart are too...because they > irritate me just as much. > > I think she's just there as someone to hate and be annoyed with. I > doubt she's even intelligent enough to be truly evil. > Hi, Megan. Dobby and Lockhart are as irritating as Rita Skeeter? Hmmm, well, could be. But perhaps we can be more precise. Maybe we need an "Irritant Meter" or something that places these characters on a 10- point scale. For me, Lockhart rocks the scale with a high rating of 9.5. Winky checks in at about a 7. Dobby was a 7 in CoS, but moved to a 3 in GoF, which is rather impressive movement. Rita Skeeter rates about a 4. On the "Evil Meter", Voldemort is king and gets a 10, of course. I'd say Lucius Malfoy gets an 8.5 and Crouch Jr. gets a 9.5. Maybe Pettigrew is perhaps a 7. Lockhart gets a 6. Draco gets about a 4. Rita Skeeter can only muster about a 3. I can't decide about Karkarov and Snape -- yet. Cindy (publicly thanking Megan for teaching her how to get her name instead of her e-mail to display in the author field) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Oct 17 22:19:33 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:19:33 -0000 Subject: Enervate/Ennervate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ql05l+qufn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27811 Jen Faulkner wrote: > The spell, however, is not *enervate*; it eNnervate. Spelling, in this > case, *counts*. and Steve Vander Ark agrees both onlist and in the Lexicon. Not in my GOF, British first edition, it ain't. Dumbledore revives Krum and Crouch with 'Enervate'. Flitwick and Hermione have unaccountably not mentioned whether spelling is important when spelling. So first question: do the UK and other English Language versions differ here? If so, and Dumbledore tried to use the spell in America, would he send the patient further into unconsciousness? I doubt very much that etymology is the answer here - surely neither Latin nor mediaeval French (nor Hawaiian) is a particularly magical language. I think the point is connotation - enervate *sounds* like getting the nerves going, whatever it may mean in the dictionary. But this does raise the question - how do the words for spells arise? Why does pronunciation matter? Do Krum, or Ali Bashir, or the African wizards use the same vaguely Romance spells that British (English?) wizards do? David, wondering idly how mediaeval L.O.O.N.s kept their blood pressure down in the days when nobody cared about spelling From retaksbor at home.com Wed Oct 17 22:33:37 2001 From: retaksbor at home.com (retaksbor at home.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:33:37 -0000 Subject: Mars In-Reply-To: <9n9ei7+fhfv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ql101+nvun@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27812 >In first reading Harry Potter, I was also confused with what the centaurs were saying in The Forbidden Forest. I saw the link not as a reference to Voldemort alone, but more of his activities through Quirrel. >It seemed to me that Quirrel was more a reference to Quirinus, a god of war, and son of Mars. Maybe indicating that Quirrel was out and about do something important. I don't know though; I could be missing the point of the centaur's words completely. Anybody come up with a similiar idea??? From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 23:04:20 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:04:20 -0000 Subject: Evil or Irritating (WAS Idle musings on Book Six) In-Reply-To: <9qku8p+4i7n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ql2pk+dic0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27813 > Hi, Megan. > > Dobby and Lockhart are as irritating as Rita Skeeter? Hmmm, well, > could be. But perhaps we can be more precise. Maybe we need > an "Irritant Meter" or something that places these characters on a 10- > point scale. For me, Lockhart rocks the scale with a high rating of > 9.5. Winky checks in at about a 7. Dobby was a 7 in CoS, but moved > to a 3 in GoF, which is rather impressive movement. Rita Skeeter > rates about a 4. > > On the "Evil Meter", Voldemort is king and gets a 10, of course. I'd > say Lucius Malfoy gets an 8.5 and Crouch Jr. gets a 9.5. Maybe > Pettigrew is perhaps a 7. Lockhart gets a 6. Draco gets about a 4. > Rita Skeeter can only muster about a 3. I can't decide about > Karkarov and Snape -- yet. > > Cindy (publicly thanking Megan for teaching her how to get her name > instead of her e-mail to display in the author field) (Anytime!) Well, yes I admit Dobby significantly redeemed himself in GOF (especially when he saved Harry from humiliation), so he moves down in the Annoyance Scale. (Maybe I just don't like House Elves...that's it). Winky gets my nod for a 7. Maybe I just have a problem with Rita's deception and the fact that she causes PUBLIC ruin to some reputations (not to mention she's employed by the oh-so-credible Daily Prophet? HOW can they not see through her??). Anyway (*mentally checks her parenthetic rambling*) I guess Rita just bugs me--it's not that she is ANNOYING, per se (she is somewhat), she just p*sses me off (I don't know what kind of filter is on this thing...) because she gets away with so much! -Megan, who eagerly awaits the updating of the FAQ because it the best HP thing she has ever read From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Oct 17 23:04:40 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:04:40 -0400 Subject: HP and Sept 11 Message-ID: <0C72E162.33876CA4.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27814 In the immediate aftermath, a number of list members suggested lessons from Harry Potter for the events of September 11. In what follows, I have not inserted the phrases 'I think' and 'IMO' in every sentence - but I hope you will understand they are intended. I also believe it is well on-topic - but please consider in any reply you want to make whether the HP focus is disappearing from the thread. I subscribe to OT-Chatter (and recommend it to you all - the room with the comfy chairs in the HPfGU house) so anything you put there I will read. In message 19670, I argued that the source of evil in Harry Potter is that wizards have trouble fully accepting both their human nature and their wizard powers. I won't go into the whole argument again here but I do want to try to take it a little further. On the human side, historical rejection has resulted in a rejection of relations with Muggles and, if not outright contempt for 'Mudbloods', at least the cultivation of 'Wizarding Pride'. To accept that Mudbloods are wizards is to accept that wizards are part of the human race, and that the race that persecuted them - and could again - is the race to which they belong. Voldemort tries to pretend that he is not human - but when it comes down to it, he has to acknowledge his father's bone and Harry's blood in order to carry on. On the wizard side, wizards fear special magical ability, such as the ability to speak Parseltongue. Tellingly, they tend to assume any particularly powerful feat of magic, including at one point the defeat of Voldemort, must involve the use of Dark powers. Because Harry's scar is unusual it is an object of suspicion to Fudge, who more than anyone else is Mr Wizarding-average. To accept the continuity of their nature with Parselmouths and wizards of great power is to take responsibility for the acts of a Voldemort and other Dark wizards. It is to accept that there is ultimately no such thing as a special wizard who is Dark, there are just wizards, some of whom use their powers to do evil things. Lockhart is one; Voldemort is another; and Skeeter is a third. The differences between them are of degree, not kind. We actually live in a world without wizards. But the principle is the same: if human beings do terrible things, then we must accept that terrible things can be done by human beings. Nobody can make themself into a non-human being, any more than Voldemort can. And that means, however we respond to terrorist crimes, it should be on the basis that the people who committed them were and, if still alive, are human beings. We can't cut ourselves off by saying that they put themselves outside humanity. David, who does accept that JKR is not the final authority on questions like these __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From retaksbor at home.com Wed Oct 17 23:12:47 2001 From: retaksbor at home.com (retaksbor at home.com) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:12:47 -0000 Subject: Lupin fans and possible death predictions In-Reply-To: <9ollks+d77s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ql39f+106o6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27815 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote: > > I tried to post to name a Lupin fan club yesterday, but it didn't > > post, so I'll tack it onto Luke's comment. Lupin's problem isn't > > that people criticize him or dislike him. It is that people assume > > he is expendable. > > Well, I don't know that the people who predict Lupin will die think so > because they assume he is "expendable". There are three kinds of > people who die in stories: > > 1) Bad guys ("Expendable" or prominent character; it doesn't really > matter) > 2) "Expendable" good guys > 3) Prominent character good guys > Doesn't that cover everybody in the novel? In the series, putting aside what the reader thinks,in the end, you are either a deatheater or not a deatheater. You are either good or bad. In each category you are either prominant or "expendable." Who doesn't this classification people who could die in this story cover (other than muggles, who would not at all be missed by the reader)? From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Oct 17 23:23:21 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:23:21 -0000 Subject: Father figures revisited In-Reply-To: <3BC8EC80.D1475165@texas.net> Message-ID: <9ql3t9+g28l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27816 Amanda wrote: the discussions of > father figure got interesting. Here, as I recall, was the rundown: > > Hagrid > Dumbledore > Arthur Weasley > Snape. That was a very interesting thread. But I am puzzled by one absence. It could be argued that the person who has made the most practical contribution to fathering Harry is Lupin. The Patronus sessions result in Harry finding his father inside himself, and it seems natural to me that they do, as Lupin takes time one on one with Harry to teach him the spell and practice it. In effect he provides experiences for Harry, and lives through them with him. By contrast, Dumbledore provides experiences but is mostly absent, and though Arthur provides a symbol of domesticity and stability that Harry can relate to easily he is less close. Sirius is Harry's fantasy, and starts to fulfill the role well but IMO, Lupin has proved himself. David From margdean at erols.com Wed Oct 17 23:05:07 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:05:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Idle musings on Book Six References: <9qkqar+q0a5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BCE0EA3.F7DA6FFD@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27817 Megan wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: > > How 'bout Rita Skeeter? > > Annoying? Yes. Should be completely stricken from GOF (IMO)? Yes. > A disgrace to witches and journalism? Yes. > Evil? No. > > I don't think we can classify Rita under that category of "truly > evil". If she's evil, then Dobby and Lockhart are too...because they > irritate me just as much. I wouldn't classify Rita Skeeter as evil because she's irritating. (Or Lockhart either, for that matter.) I classify them both as evil because they knowingly do things that harm others in order to serve their own ends. By these standards, of course, Dobby is =not= evil. --Margaret Dean From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 18 00:04:42 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:04:42 -0000 Subject: Enervate/Ennervate In-Reply-To: <9ql05l+qufn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ql6aq+4fu5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27818 David wrote: > Not in my GOF, British first edition, it ain't. Dumbledore revives > Krum and Crouch with 'Enervate'. Flitwick and Hermione have > unaccountably not mentioned whether spelling is important when > spelling. > > So first question: do the UK and other English Language versions > differ here? My GOF American version has "Ennervate" in the "Madness of Mr. Crouch" and in "Veritaserum." My British version has "Enervate" in both places. Go figure. Cindy From degroote at altavista.com Thu Oct 18 00:33:30 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 17 Oct 2001 17:33:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: an extra scene Message-ID: <20011018003330.26609.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27819 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Oct 18 00:44:33 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:44:33 -0000 Subject: Evil or Irritating (WAS Idle musings on Book Six) In-Reply-To: <9ql2pk+dic0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ql8lh+fe1a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27820 Cindy wrote: >Maybe we need an "Irritant Meter" or something that places these characters on a 10-point scale. For me, Lockhart rocks the scale with a high rating of 9.5.> Cindy, I was so with you on the Lockhart thing until you said 9.5. That's all? Lockhart on my Irritant Meter gets an 11 (has anyone seen "Spinal Tap"?). He goes to 11. Megan responded: >Maybe I just have a problem withRita's deception and the fact that she causes PUBLIC ruin to somereputations (not to mention she's employed by the oh-so-credible DailyProphet? HOW can they not see through her??). Anyway (*mentally checks her parenthetic rambling*) I guess Rita just bugs me--it's not that she is ANNOYING, per se (she is somewhat), she just p*sses me of(I don't know what kind of filter is on this thing...) because she gets away with so much!> Now Rita doesn't irritate me either, but I do dislike her a hell of a lot. She is mean and nasty and that's all. I think you hit the nail on the head, Megan, when you said Rita pisses you off, because that is what she does to me, too. She is also more real to me than Lockhart; Rita is the paparazzi rolled into one painted nailed, pen sucking fake blonde. I also find her quite dangerous, as she has no regard for others' privacy or well being in any way. Her article about Hagrid could have resulted in something much worse than Hagrid hiding out in his hut for days. She also causes damage to Hermione. Rita clearly knows her audience and probably relied on the fact her readers would react strongly to the possibility that Hermione was playing two boys (one being the beloved Harry Potter) at once. Hermione is lucky no one did send her a curse; the bubotuber pus was painful enough. I guess I'd say Rita is evil, and all by her own choice. Yuck. Hagrid, by the way, rates an 8 on my Irritant Meter, but I seem to be the only one around here who feels that way. --jenny from ravenclaw, also enjoying seeing her name and not her email address in the author column ********************************************* From Dazzle987 at aol.com Thu Oct 18 02:10:30 2001 From: Dazzle987 at aol.com (Dazzle987 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:10:30 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Baby Harry Message-ID: <9qldmm+p86a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27821 Hi, This is the first time I have posted something so bear with me, but as I was reading Prisoner of Azakaban it got me thinking... why didn't Lupin ever try to take Harry when he was a baby? He was the only one left of the four, and it was his best's friend's son. I don't know if this has been discused before, but I would be interested to hear some different opinions of the subject. : ) Becky From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 02:25:08 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:25:08 -0000 Subject: Lupin fans and possible death predictions In-Reply-To: <9ql39f+106o6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qlei4+hvs9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27822 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., retaksbor at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > > Well, I don't know that the people who predict Lupin will die > > think so because they assume he is "expendable". There are three > > kinds of people who die in stories: > > > > 1) Bad guys ("Expendable" or prominent character; it doesn't > > really matter) > > 2) "Expendable" good guys > > 3) Prominent character good guys > > > > Doesn't that cover everybody in the novel? > In the series, putting aside what the reader thinks,in the end, you > are either a deatheater or not a deatheater. You are either good > or bad. In each category you are either prominant or > "expendable." Who doesn't this classification people who could > die in this story cover (other than muggles, who would not at all > be missed by the reader)? Umm, yes, that does cover everybody. It was supposed to. *Anyone* CAN die in a novel, that was not the point of that e-mail, to show who might or might not. The purpose of those categories was to illustrate the different ways that those kinds of deaths affect the reader, in response to Cindy's complaint that she thought people viewed Lupin as "expendable". (It makes more sense if you read the paragraphs after the categories.) For example, the reader rarely cares if a category 1 character dies. Nor do they care much when a category 2 character dies. Usually the purpose of a category 2 character is that someone (i.e. Joe Security Guard, who had a two minute walk-on part before his death) had to die to illustrate the presence of a danger, but the author did not want to make this a main character for obvious reasons. This is what "expendable" means in regards to character deaths, so I was pointing out that Lupin does not fit this category. The reason some people think his death would be a powerful story-telling tool is not because he is expendable (category 2), but because he is NOT, and therefore his death would be an emotionally-moving scene (which puts him in category 3). That was all. Nothing profound, I was just making a minor point of order. That was the point of the categories. It was not a list of criteria or categories for who it makes the most sense to predict would die. I suppose I could make one of those, but that's another question entirely. -Luke, who was very surprised to have to revisit one of his posts of old From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 18 02:32:03 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:32:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's Dream Before the Second Task Message-ID: <9qlev3+8idg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27823 A while back, Steve mentioned that he was adding more about Harry's dreams to the Lexicon (I think). That caused me to remember another of Harry's GoF dreams that might mean something (or might not). It is the dream before the second task: The mermaid in the painting in the prefects' bathroom was laughing. Harry was bobbing like a cork in bubbly water next to her rock, while she held his Firebolt over his head. "Come and get it!" she giggled maliciously. "Come on, jump!" "I can't," Harry panted, snatching at the Firebolt, and struggling not to sink. "Give it to me.!" But she just poked him painfully in the side with the end of the broomstick, laughing at him. Then Dobby wakes him up. Maybe there's nothing to this dream beyond the obvious. But I wondered if anyone has a theory, because I don't. Cindy From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 02:36:20 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 02:36:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Baby Harry In-Reply-To: <9qldmm+p86a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qlf74+bgh4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27824 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dazzle987 at a... wrote: > [W]hy didn't Lupin ever try to take Harry when he was a baby? He > was the only one left of the four, and it was his best's friend's > son. Welcome, Becky! I suspect there are at least two factors. First, Lupin probably feared that at "that time of the month" he would cause baby Harry physical harm. The Wolfsbane Potion appears to be a fairly recent development, so that wouldn't have given Lupin any greater sense of security about the situation, even if it was available then and he could have found someone to brew it for him. Even with the Wolfsbane Potion, Lupin would probably deem it a great risk to take with someone else's small child. Second, it was Dumbledore's opinion that Harry should go to the Dursley's. I don't think Lupin would argue with this; he would feel like he was overstepping his bounds if he did so, unlike Sirius, who at least would have the 'godfather' argument if he hadn't been in Azkaban (which is a minor problem). And Lupin probably wouldn't have any idea that the Dursley's are so horrible to Harry, so why would he assume that he is somehow more entitled to take care of Harry than they are, especially when Petunia is an actual blood relative? -Luke From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 03:00:27 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 03:00:27 -0000 Subject: Evil or Irritating (was Re: Idle musings on Book Six) In-Reply-To: <9qkqar+q0a5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qlgkb+qeib@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27825 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: > I don't think we can classify Rita under that category of "truly > evil". If she's evil, then Dobby and Lockhart are too...because > they irritate me just as much. Okay, I'm going into my "being obnoxiously semantic" mode. I apologize--I have generally tried to keep my "being obnoxiously semantic" mode at the length of a twelve-foot pole away from the group as there are certainly a sufficient number of L.O.O.N.S. here already. But I just can't let this one slide, it's just too much. How is being irritating a criterion for being evil? Both the terms "irritating" and "evil" are conferrances of judgment, but "irritating" is generally considered a subjective judgment and "evil" an objective one. Now, I'm the last person that should be talking about "good" and "evil", because quite frankly I don't believe such a distinction truly exists. I definitely believe in "right" and "wrong", but that's not the same. Anyway, that's another discussion for another time, and probably not even on this list. But evilness, if it exists, surely has an objective definition? Surely its not just based on our personal opinions like someone being deemed "irritating" is? So, if we take evilness in literary terms as fulfilling the role of the antagonist, then Rita IS evil. She is a clear antagonist to our protagonists (Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, etc.), because she causes problems for them. Whether she is irritating is immaterial. Lockhart is also evil, under this definition, because he is an antagonist to Harry and Ron. I suppose he and Rita could be coined as "less" evil (if indeed evil can be said to have "degrees") than Voldemort, but this is logical as Voldemort is the primary antagonist. Dobby, though quite possibly irritating, is not evil under this definition. He assists the protagonists; he does not cause them any detriment with bad intent. Or, if we take evilness as being morally corrupted, than the same conclusions generally apply (Rita and Lockhart are evil but Dobby is not). Okay, that's out of my system. Please continue. -Luke From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 03:57:00 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:57:00 -0400 Subject: SS/PS Chapter 06 Summary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27826 Apologies for the lateness of this week's summaries. Chapter 07 summary should hopefully be posted tomorrow and the Potions summary should be on Friday (Saturday if things don't go well). ------------------------ Harrys last month with the Dursleys isnt very good; they act as if he is invisible. He keeps to his room looking at his new schoolbooks and Hedwig. On the last day of August, Harry asks Vernon if he would take him to Kings Cross in London the next day. Vernon agrees and asks him where Hogwarts is. Harry professes he doesnt know and takes out the ticket Hagrid gave him. He tells Vernon that he leaves from platform nine and three-quarters and Vernon says that there is no such platform. He also says that the Dursleys were going to London anyway, to get Dudleys tail removed. The next morning, the Dursleys and Harry travel to Kings Cross. Mr. Dursley drops Harry off, snidely pointing out that there is no platform nine and three-quarters. The Dursleys drive away laughing, leaving Harry all alone. Harry tries to find out where the train to Hogwarts is but has no luck. As he begins to wonder whether he should take out his wand and try tapping bricks, a group of people pass by him and he hears the word Muggle. It is the Weasleys. Harry notices they have an owl and he follows the family of redheads. Harry watches as Percy and the twins goes through the solid barrier between platforms nine and ten. Confused, Harry tells Mrs. Weasley he doesnt know how to go through the barrier. She tells him to just walk straight through it and ushers him to go through before Ron does. Harry makes it through the barrier. He gets his first look at the scarlet Hogwarts Express. Harry finds an empty compartment, after passing Neville, who has lost his toad, and begins to shove his trunk towards the train door. After dropping his trunk on his foot, the twins appear. They help Harry with his trunk and find out who Harry is. Mrs. Weasley calls the twins away; Harry sits in the empty compartment and watches her say goodbye to the boys. We get our first real glimpses at part of the Weasley family. We learn that Percy is a prefect, something he has talked about all summer, that the twins are pranksters, that Ron has something on his nose, and that Ginny desperately wants to meet Harry. The twins tell their mother that they met Harry Potter. The train leaves and Ron Weasley enters Harrys compartment. Ron asks if anyone was sitting in there and Harry shakes his head. They dont speak and then the twins appear again. The twins introduce themselves and Ron to Harry and leave. >From this point on, Harry and Ron talk quite a bit. Ron asks Harry about his scar and his Muggle family. Harry asks Ron about his family and this is the first time we see Rons desire to be distinguished from his brothers. At noon, the lunch cart comes around and Harry buys some of everything. He shares his bounty with Ron, who only has corned beef sandwiches. At some point, Harry asks Ron about the Chocolate Frogs. He learns about the wizard cards and opens his first Frog to discover that he has gotten Dumbledore. He also learns that wizarding pictures dont stay put. After Ron warns Harry about the Every Flavour Beans, Neville knocks on their door and asks if they have seen his toad. They havent, Neville leaves, and Ron explains about Scabbers to Harry about how he tried the other day to turn him yellow. As he raises his wand to show Harry the spell he tried, the compartment door opens again. A girl enters; it is Hermione Granger. The Trio now have met each other, a historic moment indeed. *grin* She asks, in a bossy tone, if they have seen Nevilles toad. As Ron tells her they havent, she sees that he has his wand out and asks him to do magic. Ron casts his spell on Scabbers but nothing happens. Hermione expresses her doubt that it was a real spell, says how shes already read all the course books, and introduces herself all in one breath. Ron and Harry introduce themselves as well. Hermione tells Harry about how hes in some of the wizarding books she has and leaves. Ron asks Harry about his Quidditch team and Harry professes he doesnt know any. Ron starts explaining the game to him when the door opens again; its Draco Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. Draco confirms that Harry is really Harry Potter and introduces himself, Crabbe and Goyle. Ron makes a noise at Dracos name and Draco promptly comments on how poor Rons family is. Draco then tells Harry that he has to be careful which families he associates with. Harry doesnt like this and refuses to shake Dracos hand. Draco, being slighted, warns him to be careful or hell end up the same was as his parents. Harry and Ron then stand up to fight Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle. As they prepare to fight, Scabbers bites Goyle, the rats finest moment ever. The to-be Slytherins leave and Hermione comes back. Ron tells Harry how his father expects the Malfoys didnt need an excuse to go over to the Dark Side. Hermione tells them to put on their robes as they are nearly at Hogwarts. She leaves and they get dressed. The train slows and stops. Ron and Harry disembark to see Hagrid rounding up the First Years. They follow Hagrid down a steep, narrow path to a black lake. Harry sees Hogwarts for the first time, a vast castle perched on a high mountain. Everyone boards a boat and Neville and Hermione join Harry and Ron. The boats take off and they sail across the lake and into an opening in the cliff that Hogwarts is situated on. After going through a tunnel, they arrive at an underground harbor. After disembarking, Hagrid finds Nevilles toad and they all walk up a passageway, across the Hogwarts lawn, up to the oak front door. Hagrid knocks three times and the chapter ends. ----------------------- A warning: these questions are not the finest. They are a bit lame. Truly I racked my brains but couldn't come up with anything better. If anyone can think up more interesting ones, by all means pose them to the group! Questions: 1) Why wasnt Harry told about the barrier to the platform nine and three-quarters and how to get through it? What do you think would have happened if Harry hadnt figured out the barrier? 2) Do you remember your first impressions of the Weasley family? Of Ron? What were they? 3) What was your first impression of Hermione? Did you guess that she would become a main character at this point? 4) Did you wonder at how Neville could so frequently lose his toad? Did anyone at this point think up the popular theory that Neville is under a memory charm? ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Do you think you can cope? You figured me out - I'm lost and I'm hopeless Bleeding and broken - though I've never spoken I come undone - in this mad season" - Matchbox 20, "Mad Season" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From taradiane at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 04:08:35 2001 From: taradiane at yahoo.com (tara diane) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a few musings on SS/PS Message-ID: <20011018040835.77442.qmail@web11502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27827 i started reading SS for the third time last night, and had a few questions i thought i'd put forward to the group... do you think we'll ever know what was in the letter that dumbledore left for the dursley's the night they dropped harry off? the reason i was wondering is because i've always thought it strange that the dursley's didn't just put harry up for adoption or drop him off at an orphanage. i mean, if she hated her sister so much to the point that she pretended she didn't even have one, why the willingness to raise her nephew when it would of been much easier and much less of a disruption to their perfect little lives to just drop him on another doorstep? was there a threat from dumbledore in the letter about doing just that? something like "we'll be watching" or whatever? on a similar note, if she pretended she didn't even have a sister, how did they know about harry to begin with? did lily still hold out for some kind of a relationship to the point that she sent letters updating the dursley's on their lives? and if the potters had sent a letter, i picture petunia burning it rather than actually taking the time to read it. since harry had no other living relatives at age 1, can't we assume petunia didn't hear it from her mom or any other potter? so how did they find out the potters had a son named harry? the other thing i noticed was a mention about arabella figg's house smelling like cabbage...if i recall correctly, harry's polyjuice potion was described as smelling like overcooked cabbage, and the inside of the apothecary on diagon alley smelled like cabbage as well. so was that our first clue that mrs. figg was magical? cheers! tara, who's not sure what's worse: the wait for the movie, or the wait for it to come out on DVD/VHS...i mean, how am i supposed to hold down a job when i'm at the movie theatre everyday? ;-) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 04:23:26 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 04:23:26 -0000 Subject: HP Characters: Three-Dimensional or Archetypes? (Harry in Particular) In-Reply-To: <3BCC7988.7010803@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qllfu+pugr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27828 Excellent post, Penny. Mine is not as good. I started it a little while ago, and it was so huge I had to trim it down, which I have. I've skipped quite a bit of the original, but in the process the whole thing has become much less coherent and much more poorly articulated and argued. Sorry about that. I would wait and edit more, but well, I know tomorrow there will surely be something *else* to respond to. Anyway, enough of my whining . . . <> ----------------------------------- Well, as you are all quickly realizing, I'm sure, I often tend to incline toward a very semantic and technical perspective on these things. So the first thing that struck me is the following comment by the author of that article (heretofore just called "the author", so I don't mean JKR when I say this): "Although Rowling's characters are convincing and engaging, none of them is fully three-dimensional." It seems her definition of what "three-dimensional" means in regards to characters is different from mine, because she then seems to go on to include growth as a necessary component of a "three-dimensional" character. I do not. In fact, I think there's a lot of confusing and non-judicious use of the terminology involved in characterization. Therefore I will give a list of some of the relevant terms here and their generally accepted meanings, as far as I know. This list is, as always, totally non-authoritative. (BTW, the indentation is not an accident; it is an indicator of subsets) Characterization -- Usually used to describe the general category and techniques of all things involved with creating characters for a story. Occasionally used as a synonym for any of its subset terms (listed below), which inevitably leads to confusion. Character growth -- Changes in a character that either expand upon existing philosophies or alter/replace those philosophies. Usually positive changes, but I don't see why this has to be the case, because "positive changes" is so subjective. Character shift -- A subset of character growth, usually referring to a more dramatic change in philosophy. However, it can also be used for more subtle changes--the only firm distinction between it and character growth is that, unlike character growth, it cannot be used to describe an expansion upon existing philosophies, because that it is not a shift, it is a continuation of something to its logical end. "Fully fleshed-out" -- Describes a character who is well-developed enough for his/her actions to be relatively predictable by the reader. What do I mean by predictable? I certainly they don't mean they can't do anything that isn't surprising. I mean that the reader must know the character well enough to guess at how that character might respond if placed in a hypothetical situation. This is the whole idea of a character dictating how they will act to the author, rather than the other way around. "Three-dimensional" -- Descibes a character whose motivations are complex enough to be realistic, or as Cindy said, describing a character who is "multifaceted". Very similar, but not identical, IMO, to a "fully fleshed-out" character. And certainly having nothing to do with characters who grow, as the author of this article seems to indicate. Character development -- Commonly used to mean one of two things: either it is used as a synonym for character growth or it is used to describe the general category and techniques involved with "fully fleshed-out" characters. Again this leads to confusion. CASE IN POINT: Fairly recently on this list the term "character development" became a point of confusion between two posters when doing a comparison of the merits of Harry Potter to The Chronicles of Narnia. Poster A (I believe it was Tabouli) had assumed that the 'good character development' referred to having characters that were "fully fleshed-out" and therefore deemed Harry Potter was superior in this right. Poster B (I believe it was Steve Vander Ark) had assumed 'good character development' referred to having characters who grew and changed, and therefore deemed Narnia was superior in this right. In light of the perceived disagreement, there followed some point-counterpoint. Although this made for an extremely interesting and entertaining discussion, neither side was apparently aware that they were debating completely seperate issues because of an alternate interpretation of a particular term. Eventually I think this disparity was cleared up; however, I do not remember for certain. *** Now then, while I understand the author's basic point, I'm not surely I really agree with this apparent distinction of linear vs. non-linear character growth. I mean, really, when you think about it, what's the difference? Growth is growth. If Harry is different after a particular set of events, then he grew. Whether this made him "more and ever more clearly who he is" seems absolutely irrelevant to me. Did he learn a lesson? Yes. Did he change? Yes. So what difference does it make if he alters his existing philosophies in a small way vs. a large one in determining if this change is "linear"? Wouldn't any change that required a shift of direction (a change of slope, if we take the "linear" term literally), however small, be technically non-linear? If he hadn't altered his philosophies at all, but only taken his existing ones to their inevitable conclusion, then I would understand the author's point. Then I might call it a linear growth (or perhaps stagnation would be more truly accurate). But that's not what seems to happen. Harry at the end of COS clearly has a DIFFERENT understanding of what makes him who he is than he did at the beginning of COS. If his understanding is different, why would that change be linear? Just because he didn't do a complete turn-around from having been fundamentally evil to suddenly being fundamentally good does not mean he didn't grow, or that he didn't grow in a non-linear fashion. When professors or authors talk about the changes that occur in stories being complete "revolutions", this does not necessarily mean all the changes are opposite on a macro level. Sometimes they are only opposite on a micro level. It seems to me that if we are going to have two black-and-white terms ("linear" and "non-linear") than there better be a clean-cut distinction between the two. I'm afraid I don't know what that would be. How different does the resulting person have to be from the original person to make it now qualify as a non-linear change, whereas at any lesser degree of change, it would have been linear? No, it seems to me that any distinction between linear and non-linear growth would be subject to all kinds of gradients. And wouldn't the extensive gradients then invalidate the terminology? So I'm not sure there is such a thing as "linear growth" or "non-linear growth". I think there are degrees of growth. And yes, the changes in the Harry Potter books are mostly to a smaller degree, not to a bigger degree. I also think this is because the Harry Potter books are sometimes more about reader growth than character growth. Take Snape, for instance. As Penny points out, he hasn't changed one bit in the course of the books so far (and since he is a secondary character, he is technically at less obligation to do so in future books, though he may). But the reader's (and to some extent Harry's) perception of him has gradually evolved (becoming increasingly "three-dimensional"). Reader growth, ladies and gentlemen. In this case, learning to see the wounded animal beneath the ferocious monster. And isn't that the end goal of character growth anyway, for the reader to grow too? Oh, and perhaps the problem that the author of that article has with the growth that does occur in HP is that it is not immediately apparent at what point the growth occurs. For example, there is no "From that time on, Eustace was a changed boy..." a la The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (The Chronicles of Narnia). For example, take the jealousy that affects Harry's opinion of Cedric quite a bit when he discovers that Cho is going with Cedric to the Yule Ball. A part of him knows that his opinion is not justifiable, but for the most part he does not acknowledge this. But long before the end of GOF his opinion of Cedric is even higher than it was before the jealousy corrupted it in the first place. But when, precisely, did the concrete evidence of this change occur? It might be when Harry finally decides to take Cedric's advice and go to the Prefects' bathroom. Or it might not be until a bit later. But in any case, there is no flashing neon light signifying "All ye who read this paragraph: This is the single moment of epiphany after which all things will change". Although such Before & After changes can be extremely effective when pulled off properly, they are not well-suited to Harry Potter, to my mind. JKR has clearly tried to keep her characters on a human level; in contrast to the supernatural world they live in. And it is far more realistic for most change to occur gradually, almost imperceptibly, not Before & After, but a little bit at a time. Occasionally, real people do wrestle with a single dark night of the soul, after which their "demons" are ousted. But this is less common, and if I were JKR, I would save this Before & After type of change for a circumstance in which it was a bit more appropriate. Yet another musing on when growth is shown to occur: One of the interesting elements of children's fantasy <> in particular, is that often the moral elements are embodied in the dialogue of a secondary, wise character. It is my personal contention that these platitudes sometimes DO reflect changes in the main character even when none is shown. As in, when Dumbledore says at the end of COS that it was Harry's choices that made him different from Tom Riddle, that Harry really did come to this realization as Dumbledore said it--even though nothing in the text specifically says, "Harry realized Dumbledore was correct". Of course, sometimes the platitude's function is to foreshadow a future change (this is "author prophecy", BTW, for anyone who remembers), not represent one that is currently taking place. This idea is, however, a peculiar point of view, and I could see where many would disagree with its validity. -Luke From mlacats at aol.com Thu Oct 18 04:29:15 2001 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:29:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin fans and possible death predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27829 Hello everyone! I'm new to HP FOR GROWNUPS so I'm not sure if this is the proper place to make my comment or ask my question, but, here goes anyway! I've heard other rumors about Lupin being killed. Is that just speculation? I'm crazy about him and would hate to see him die. Please tell me it's just a theory. I know being a werewolf isn't easy but......... Harriet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caliburncy at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 04:59:33 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 04:59:33 -0000 Subject: Lupin fans and possible death predictions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qlnjl+ke92@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27830 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlacats at a... wrote: > Hello everyone! > I'm new to HP FOR GROWNUPS so I'm not sure if this is the proper > place to make my comment or ask my question, but, here goes anyway! > I've heard other rumors about Lupin being killed. Is that just > speculation? I'm crazy about him and would hate to see him die. > Please tell me it's just a theory. I know being a werewolf isn't > easy but......... > > Harriet Welcome, Harriet! Yes, it's just a theory. In fact, it is a good rule of thumb to assume that everything is a rumor until the books come out, even some things that JKR herself says will happen. Because while JKR does have all the books plotted out, she has had to make changes before, and some of the things she confirmed would take place in GOF (the introduction of a Weasley cousin) did not, as the result of some editing and re-writing she did. But the possibility of Lupin dying is *pure* speculation; JKR has never said this will occur. JKR has said there are upcoming deaths and that one of the deaths in Book Five would "half-crucify" her to write. She has also said that someone who died in Book Five would be a "special fan of Harry". These may or may not be in reference to the same person. It is reasonable to assume there will be multiple casualties in each of the upcoming books, Book Five included. She also made one comment that seemed to indicate Lupin would appear in Book Seven, I believe, so again, though *everything* should be taken as rumor, he may make it at least to the start of that book, if not further. Discussion of the possibility of Lupin dying is usually based either on A) people's personal interpretation of the aforementioned and similar hints from JKR or B) people's opinion on how effective and emotionally moving his death would be. And no, we're not that morbidly detached about death as that makes us sound, in case you were wondering . . . at least not all of us. Oh wait, there is also less frequently basis C) which is that some people believe that the eventual purpose of Wormtail's silver hand is to kill Lupin, based on the general mythology of werewolves being vulnerable to silver. It should be noted that JKR picks and chooses which parts of general mythology to adopt into her own universe, though, and we thus far have no canon evidence that her version of werewolves have this same vulnerability. Anyway, only JKR knows and even she changes her mind. . . -Luke From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 05:39:21 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 05:39:21 -0000 Subject: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects In-Reply-To: <3BCC2DDE.8090808@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qlpu9+nb28@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27831 Penny wrote: >I also cannot buy Ron being named a prefect & Harry not being named one. There's no basis for that particular choice > as best I can see. Well, the basis I could see for not choosing Harry (other than his being an inveterate rulebreaker) is that he is at the center of a war for Wizarding As We Know It and as such has rather a lot on his plate. The question of whether Ron would be a good candidate is independent of this one. Amy Z --------------------------------------------- Professor Trelawney kept predicting Harry's death, which he found extremely annoying. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- From ymekelly at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 06:34:06 2001 From: ymekelly at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFtaWzpZQ==?=) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 06:34:06 -0000 Subject: Movie Rumors Message-ID: <9qlt4u+mjfr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27832 Forgive me guys. I haven't posted in a very long time. A friend of my told me that the movie for Chamber of Secrets is already in production. She said it would be released next year. She said that all the movies are being produced one after the other. Anyone have any information on that? YMEKELLY From jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 18 07:41:56 2001 From: jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk (Janie) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 07:41:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's Dream Before the Second Task In-Reply-To: <9qlev3+8idg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qm144+8blo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27833 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > It is the dream before the second task: > > The mermaid in the painting in the prefects' bathroom was laughing. > Harry was bobbing like a cork in bubbly water next to her rock, while > she held his Firebolt over his head. > "Come and get it!" she giggled maliciously. "Come on, jump!" > "I can't," Harry panted, snatching at the Firebolt, and struggling > not to sink. "Give it to me.!" > But she just poked him painfully in the side with the end of the > broomstick, laughing at him. > > Then Dobby wakes him up. Well, i could be wrong BUT i think that this dream might give an insight into Harry. If im right then the broomstick represents what harry is good at (ie Quidditch), and him thinking that the only thing that would get him through the task was this. It seems to say that Harry believes that the only thing he is good at is Quidditch. OR it could just be that harry is dreading the next task. love janie xxx From r_deutsch at msn.com Thu Oct 18 08:09:19 2001 From: r_deutsch at msn.com (Rena D.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:09:19 -0700 Subject: Secret chambers (was Marauders' Map Blocked Passage) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27834 Slytherin has certainly theirs, the chamber of secrets, which can only be opened by one who speaks parseltongue. However, I think Hufflepuff's chamber could be equally selective in who it will let in. I don't think hard work is selective enough. Maybe a sequence of tasks for which you have to show persistence to get them done. Rena ----- Original Message ----- From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Good idea! Gryffindor's - which only a true Gryffindor can open - Harry Potter(with the sword?). Ravenclaw - well, the key is to solve a riddle or something like that - Hermione/Cho Chang could open that one, I guess. And, Hufflepuff... Helga Hufflepuff's chamber to open anyone cabable of hard work... (Probably doing something very boring).Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lake4fam at earthlink.net Thu Oct 18 08:38:08 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:38:08 -0000 Subject: Secret Chambers Message-ID: <9qm4dg+g1nu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27835 Why are we asssuming that anyone else would want to emulate Salazar and create a secret chamber? I have a problem with this: it FEELS right for Salazar to create a secret chamber in which to house a horror. It doesn't feel right or necessary for Helga, Rowena, Godric to do likewise. What would be the purpose for a Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw or Gryffindor chamber? dittany/custodienne From frances at forever.u-net.com Thu Oct 18 09:54:36 2001 From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:54:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's green eyes Message-ID: <9qm8ss+brh4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27836 Hi. I've just got a British poster book for PS/SS and found the first photos I've seen of Harry with green eyes. It's difficult to tell exactly what the colour is because one photo is rather dark, but they do seem to be a little brighter than I thought and not quite as emerald. Frances From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 13:27:29 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:27:29 -0400 Subject: ADMIN: HPfGU movie poll - last day to vote Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27837 Dear HPforGUers, You have one more day to vote in the HPfGU MOVIE POLL. It closes at midnight (UK time) on OCTOBER 19th. I repeat below the four options' pros & cons compiled by Neil. The poll is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=729738 (you may need to reconstruct the link) GENERAL NOTES *It's an advisory poll, which means the outcome will inform the decision. *The poll will be closed on Friday 19th October, midnight UK time. *You can change your vote until the poll is closed. *Others can't see your vote or sell it to the highest bidder. *A copy of this message will be linked from the poll intro. Here are the four options and some notes on the thinking behind them... (1) KEEP HP MOVIE DISCUSSION ON THE MAIN LIST What does this mean? We would continue to ask for a 'MOVIE:' prefix on the headers of all movie-related posts and there would be a requirement for spoiler space until it seemed appropriate to remove it. It's worth pointing out that, because release dates are staggered between November 2001 and May 2002 (see list, here: http://www.hpgalleries.com/moviegallery3.htm), spoiler space would continue for an extended period. What is spoiler space? R E M U S F O R P R E S I D E N T With the juicy details placed much further down the page (note: do not use blank lines or punctuation symbols, as they may get ignored or truncate messages) Pros: *no further splitting up of the list - all book/movie discussion in one place *no additional lists to check Cons: *spoiler space to remember and contend with (see intro, above) *huge increase in message volume, particularly around movie release dates *influx to a literary discussion list of movie fans who may not have read the books *swamping of book-related threads around movie-release times. (2) PERMANENT HP MOVIE LIST What does this mean? We would move all discussions related to the HP movies to a permanent, separate list that would be complementary to the main book-oriented list. Pros: *clear-cut division *no need for spoiler space (you would only join if you'd seen the film[s]) *reduced volume on the main list *people could avoid movie discussions (and movie-only fans) easily Note: *movie/book crossover posts would all go here (pro or con?). Cons: *another list to join *divergence of membership on the two lists *no more posting about the movie on the book discussion list (3) TEMPORARY HP MOVIE LIST What does this mean? We would set up a list for discussion of the movies instead of introducing spoiler space. Rather than maintaining the list all the time, if the message volume dropped (i.e. between films), discussion would return to the main list with the 'MOVIE:' prefixes. Pros: *allows main list to maintain some continuity between book and movie discussions *reduced message volume on the main list only when needed *people could avoid movie discussions more easily during the active periods. Note: ultimately, this may end up being a permanent list. Cons: *rather vague (or flexible, from another viewpoint) *a decision would be required about moves back and forth *there would be some splitting of movie posts between two lists (4) ALL HP MOVIE POSTS GO TO OT CHATTER What does this mean? We would move all movie discussion to our existing OT Chatter list and apply the same rules that would apply on the main list (i.e. spoiler space for an extended period). Pros: *movie, merchandise and casting chitchat would be on the same list as more serious discussion *no need to join another list (assuming members have joined OT Chatter) Cons: *it wouldn't have the same feel as the OT Chatter list we have now *OT topics would be invaded by movie-specific discussion *some of the same 'cons' as listed for the option (1) *there would be posting rules on a list that is currently kept fairly free of ADMIN Thanks, Amy Z for the Magical Moderator Team hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Please read our Admin Files, particularly the VFAQ and Netiquette files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From caesarius at email.ro Thu Oct 18 14:39:22 2001 From: caesarius at email.ro (Cezar Tabarcea) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:39:22 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The significance of first names in HP books. Message-ID: <200110181439.f9IEdMJ08406@zerg.codec.ro> No: HPFGUIDX 27838 Hi all, i want to share with you some thoughts about the names of the main characters in the four books. If some things (or all) have already been spotted, i'm sorry (i have joined the group only recently). Also, i hope i have the names right, since i have read GoF only in a French translation, and some of the names were adapted. I teach Latin and Old Greek at the University, and i noticed that JKR uses many Latin adjectives as first names, such as - Albus (white - of course) Dumbledore, but also Rubeus Hagrid (rubeus meens red, and, in PoA JKR expressly states that Hagrid's complexion was usually very flushed - also, in French, maybe in English too, there's the word "rubicond" which means something like fat and round, but also can signify - good-natured, funny, mild). McGonagall's name is Minerva (the Roman equivalent of the Greek goddess Athena, the goddess of Wisdom and Tactics, but also a well-known virgin). Severus (Snape) is, of course, the Severe. But there are three cases particularly interesting - Lupin (from the latin word for wolf) is named Remus - and maybe JKR thought about the two twins, Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome, who were raised by a she-wolf, according to the legend - (maybe they were werewolves too...). Sirius Black - the name may come from the star named Sirius, known in Old Rome as The Dog-Star (the one that announces mid-summer and draught - canicula). Now Moody is my favourite, for his first name (i hope it's the same in the English version) is Alastor, which means "un-forgetting", also "un-forgiving" (in Old Greek), and was the name of a demon, The Avenger - quite a name for an Auror. Do u think these approaches are likely, can JKR have really thought about them - I know she studied French litterature, maybe also some classics? And i have two questions - first, what was, in the English original, the name of the Sports expert from the MoM (in GoF ) - it's Ludo Verpey, in the French edition; and also, if anyone from Paris reads this, i wonder if the English editions of HP can be bought in Paris, somewhere. Is there an English bookstore that may have these books for sale? Cezar btw - Victor (Krum) is the Winner (in Latin), and i think i have already heard the name Karkarov somewhere, i will try to remember where. ______________________________________________________________________ Do you want a free e-mail for life ? Get it at http://www.email.ro/ From lily_solstar at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 15:20:13 2001 From: lily_solstar at hotmail.com (lily_solstar at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:20:13 -0000 Subject: The West Wing and HP Message-ID: <9qmrvd+6cui@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27839 During the second half of the season premire of "The West Wing" last night, I noticed that during one of the scenes, Abby (the first lady) was reading the fourth Harry Potter book. At least, I assume it was the fouth HP book. There was never any reference to it, and the camera never shot close enough to see words/titles, but it was the exact same length, the black binding was the same color and width, and the red cover was the same red. It looked the exactly like GoF with the book flap off. Cool, no? -Lily Solstar both a West Wing and a HP nut From eyre68 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 15:52:38 2001 From: eyre68 at yahoo.com (JayKay) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The West Wing and HP In-Reply-To: <9qmrvd+6cui@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011018155238.61579.qmail@web10106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27840 --- lily_solstar at hotmail.com wrote: > During the second half of the season premire of "The > West Wing" last > night, I noticed that during one of the scenes, Abby > (the first lady) > was reading the fourth Harry Potter book. That reminds me: In the movie "Serendipity," John Cusack's character stops to look at a sidewalk used book seller for a particular book. Lying right on top of the book he's looking for is a copy of Sorcerer's Stone. The title is clear to read, and the book is easily spottable. JayKay ===== "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." ~~Albus Dumbledore, _Chamber of Secrets_ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From ginnygryff at edsamail.com.ph Thu Oct 18 14:56:45 2001 From: ginnygryff at edsamail.com.ph (Ginny Gryffindor) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:56:45 +0800 Subject: The significance of first names in HP books. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27841 --> Cezar Tabarcea wrote: (snip!) And i have two questions - first, what was, in the English original, the name of the Sports expert from the MoM (in GoF ) - it's Ludo Verpey, in the French edition; *** Hi Cezar! In the English version, he's Ludovic (nickname: Ludo) Bagman, former Wimbourne Wasps beater (I think.), and now head of the Department of Magical Games and Sports of the MoM. Isn't it weird that his surname is different in the French edition? I wonder if it's that way in other translations. Aren't they supposed to retain the names from the original version? Oh, well. What do I know about that. Anyway, thanks for the info on the names. I wonder, why "Hermione"? All I know is that Hermione is Helen's daughter, and wife to Neoptolemus (did I spell that right?) and later, Orestes. (I sincerely hope I didn't mess up on that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.). Any ideas? __________________ :-) ginnygryff __________________________________ www.edsamail.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 18 16:01:14 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:01:14 -0000 Subject: Evil or Irritating In-Reply-To: <9qlgkb+qeib@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qmuca+3k7g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27842 Megan wrote: > > I don't think we can classify Rita under that category of "truly > > evil". If she's evil, then Dobby and Lockhart are too...because > > they irritate me just as much. > Luke wrote: > > But evilness, if it exists, surely has an objective definition? > Surely its not just based on our personal opinions like someone being > deemed "irritating" is? > > So, if we take evilness in literary terms as fulfilling the role of > the antagonist, then Rita IS evil. She is a clear antagonist to our > protagonists (Harry, Hermione, Hagrid, etc.), because she causes > problems for them. Whether she is irritating is immaterial. Lockhart > is also evil, under this definition, because he is an antagonist to > Harry and Ron. I suppose he and Rita could be coined as "less" evil > (if indeed evil can be said to have "degrees") than Voldemort, but > this is logical as Voldemort is the primary antagonist. Dobby, though > quite possibly irritating, is not evil under this definition. He > assists the protagonists; he does not cause them any detriment with > bad intent. > > Or, if we take evilness as being morally corrupted, than the same > conclusions generally apply (Rita and Lockhart are evil but Dobby is > not). > Luke, I don't think anyone is saying that Evil and Irritating are the same thing (right, Megan? ). Note the existence of separate Evil Meter and Irritant Meter scales. Although I suppose someone could be such an irritant that they cross over into evil. Perhaps certain ex- spouses have made the leap across that divide. :-) But I really wanted to follow up on the statement "So, if we take evilness in literary terms as fulfilling the role of the antagonist, then Rita IS evil." Isn't it possible for the protagonist to be evil, such that we can't always say that evilness = antagonist? For instance, let's assume that HP were told entirely from Voldemort's POV. Let's assume he and his followers do the same overtly evil acts (torturing people, controlling the will of others, murder). Dumbledore would then be the antogonist but would not be evil. Also, (and I fear the following points may be directly contrary to everything I just said), I have to wonder whether Rita is Evil because I suspect that she doesn't do things specifically to hurt our protagonists or anyone else. She does it to sell newspapers, and if people get hurt, they get hurt due to the (possibly forseeable) Evil reactions of others. A third party sent Hermione the hate mail; Mrs. Weasley snubbed Hermione. Rita just told a story based on the information provided by Draco and others. So maybe all of this shows that there are degrees of evil. There is evil for evil's sake, and there is evil that is an unfortunate side-effect of legitimate actions taken for another purpose, and perhaps there is unintended evil. I fear that my observation brings us dangerously close to a discussion of "What is evil?" and "Is evil objective or subjective?", which in my experience is quicksand, a bottomless pit, a black hole from which it is impossible to emerge. But then again, we have months to kill before OoP, so what the heck? Cindy (painfully aware that this post might make no sense at all, and hoping someone will help sort this out) -------------- Dr. Evil: "You're not quite evil enough. You're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margerine of evil. You are the Diet Coke of evil, just one calorie, not evil enough." -- Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Oct 18 16:12:32 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:12:32 -0000 Subject: Good/Evil vs. Right/Wrong In-Reply-To: <9qlgkb+qeib@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qmv1g+jpgt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27843 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote: > > Now, I'm the last person that should be talking about "good" and > "evil", because quite frankly I don't believe such a distinction truly > exists. I definitely believe in "right" and "wrong", but that's not > the same. Anyway, that's another discussion for another time, and > probably not even on this list. > > But evilness, if it exists, surely has an objective definition? > Surely its not just based on our personal opinions like someone being > deemed "irritating" is? > Thanks for bringing up this point, Luke. Unlike you, I am rather certain that Good and Evil exist as conditions of the human spirit, and that actions taken as a result of these internal motivations are the things we judge as right and wrong. Prior list members have observed the objective existence of the Seven Deadly Sins (Pride, Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Gluttony, Lust and Envy). To my mind, these are the only Evils that exist, and they only exist in the character of humans (or in the mind of God, for you Christians, Jews and Muslims out there). The things we do as a result of these conditions, or the actions we take to fulfill or satisfy these inclinations, are what others judge as right and wrong. Under this analysis, Right and Wrong may continue to vary depending on the circumstance (relativity), but Good and Evil are absolutes. By way of example (and in the interest of avoiding the OT Patrol), how does this apply to HP? Harry and Ron, as well as MWPP before them, break just as many rules as Draco and many more than Tom Riddle, but their actions are always (or nearly always) motivated by love for a friend, protection of the innocent,etc. Hermione told a lie to get the the boys out of trouble for the troll in CoS, but her motivation was gratitude for them saving her. This is why Barty Crouch Senior is of interest. He stands for the propostion that the end justifies the means. But in the end, he was done in by loyalty to his wife and love for his son. Yet the LeStranges display a loyalty superior to any in canon so far, be it good guy or bad guy. So what makes Crouch Sr good, and Jr. and the LeStranges Evil? Their actions! Crouch Sr. saw the error of his ways, albeit too late, and tried to warn Dumbledore. You might say he repented of his prideful arrogance in removing Jr. from Azkaban. Unfortunately, he found out why Pride is the foremost of the Deadly Sins. 4FR From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 18 17:24:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:24:57 -0000 Subject: Who can apparate? Message-ID: <9qn399+sec7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27844 Early in GoF, we observe that Bagman and Crouch Sr. can apparate. We also know that the adult Weasleys can apparate. Ron tells us it is OK to steal the Flying Ford Anglia because his parents can apparate. We know Charlie eventually passed his apparition exam, and Percy is recently licenced. I think Bill apparates to the Quiddich World Cup. Dobby does the house-elf version of apparating several times. But what about the rest of the adult HP characters, like Dumbledore, McGonagall, Black, Lupin, Pettigrew, Crouch Jr., Voldemort, Snape, Moody? Are there any indications that any of them can apparate? Apparating surely would have been a handy way for some of the characters to travel at various times. Black could have apparated off of Azkaban instead of traveling as a dog. Lupin could have apparated to school instead of taking the train. It seems that apparating is, for some reason, a very underused skill in the wizarding world. We are told that it is difficult and that people sometimes don't execute it correctly, so many people prefer brooms. I think if I could created a fantasy world in which people could apparate, they'd be apparating all over the place. I wonder why JKR didn't approach it that way. Cindy From kira at kc.rr.com Thu Oct 18 17:30:28 2001 From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:30:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who can apparate? References: <9qn399+sec7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <01eb01c157fa$956a59a0$a473f2d1@LDS> No: HPFGUIDX 27845 There are spells preventing anyone from apparating on school grounds and we never see the characters anywhere else, except for the time Dumbledore appears at the Dursley's. Didn't he apparate to the beginning of the street and then put out the lights? As for Sirus, I would imagine that if you don't want to get squelched or have it go awry, you would only do so when in the best physical and mental condition or who know what you may look like after attempting it. Sirus wasn't in the best of shape when he broke out of Azkaban. LA ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy C. To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 12:24 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who can apparate? But what about the rest of the adult HP characters, like Dumbledore, McGonagall, Black, Lupin, Pettigrew, Crouch Jr., Voldemort, Snape, Moody? Are there any indications that any of them can apparate? Apparating surely would have been a handy way for some of the characters to travel at various times. Black could have apparated off of Azkaban instead of traveling as a dog. Lupin could have apparated to school instead of taking the train. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucy at luphen.co.uk Thu Oct 18 17:48:52 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:48:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Dreams References: <20011010233851.38576.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> <3BC4E9AD.21C7887C@erols.com> Message-ID: <016101c157fd$69d08460$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27846 Me too, I used to often get them at school, and when there's something important due to happen, I STILL often dream it all the night before - really disorientating!! Lucy, who has to stop and let her fiance have a turn on the computer now! ----- Original Message ----- From: Margaret Dean To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Dreams Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > --- MeriLeslie26 at aol.com wrote: > > > That night I dreamed > > that I had signed up for history, forgot about, and > > only remembered during > > finals that I had that class. It took me a full > > five minutes to remember > > that I hadn't forgotten about the class, that I was > > doing well in it, and > > just needed to take the final. I am sure/hopping > > that I am not the only one > > with these type of dreams. > > You're not. I *still* get them from time to time > and I haven't taken a class in some fifteen years! So do I, and for me it's been more like twenty. Many adults of my acquaintance have mentioned this as a standard anxiety dream. So get used to them . . . ;) See how deeply these early experiences affect us? --Margaret Dean Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 18:09:26 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Robes + Ethical Snape + Cheating Slytherins + Scarred Moody + AK + Dumbledore's Death + Prefect Possibilities + Snape Rumor + Post-GoF Harry + Pensieve + Evil Rita + Baby Harry & Lupin + Apparating In-Reply-To: <9q8nb3+7tar@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011018180926.70100.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27847 --- Marcus wrote: >I am looking at the illustration >right now. I do not see where it >says that the person is modeling the >standard issue Hogwarts robe. Am I >missing something? No you didn't miss anything. You asked what the correct robes should look like. Instead of trying to describe them, I thought it would be easier for you to understand what I meant by looking at a picture I was pretty sure you would have on hand. --- Diane in Philly wrote: >I'm not a member of Snape Lovers >Anonymous, but wanted to add my two >cents. It is the act of an ethical >man to aid and care for people (even >children) who have recently injured >and abused him. Also remember Snape defended them to Fudge for stunning him though he still thought they should be punished for infractions of school rules. Post-GoF, 'ethically' speaking, Snape will have to admit -- at least to himself -- that he misjudged Harry, that Harry is not seeking 'Celebrity'. I doubt it completely changes their relationship but, IMO, it should be discernible in Snape's choice of taunts if nowhere else. --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: [about Slytherin winning the House Championship several years in a row] >Well yes. [snip] Given the lack of >evidence it seems to me a little >unfair to *assume* Slytherin must have >cheated to win. I mean one would have >expected one of the Gryffindors to >comment on the fact if it were so. They do. "Snape always favors his own house" and gives them extra points. That qualifies as cheating in my book. --- Tabouli wrote: >In a society where they can regrow >bones overnight and phoenix tears can >heal deadly snake bites, and amputees >can be given magic silver hands, why >on earth is Moody a one-legged, >one-eyed flying purple mass of scar >tissue? Perhaps there is a limited 'window of opportunity' for magical healing during which there is no scarring? --- Dave Hardenbrook wrote: >For example, Avada Kedravra only works >if you have an overwhelming hatred for >your target.* I can't agree. Pettigrew had no overwhelming hatred for Cedric when he killed 'the spare'. --- Margaret Dean wrote: >I agree with you. I think Rowling has >been preparing both Harry and the >reader for this for the past two or >three books: having Dumbledore show >his age, having him warn Harry that he >(Dumbledore) won't always be around to >save the day, etc. I agree that Dumbledore won't be alive at the end of Book 7, but I don't think he'll die until late in Book 6 or early in Book 7. --- Luke wrote: [an excellent post on Prefect Combos] Luke, you left out one possibility: Harry is chosen, but refuses to be, a Prefect. It's not what I expect -- I, personally, think that Hermione is a 'given' and Harry is likely to be chosen Prefect -- but I wouldn't feel like it came out of left field if it happens. Given his current state of mind and his personality, it would be in character. If Ron is then chosen and finds out later Harry was first-choice, it could cause some problems. --- Susanna Luhtanen wrote: >OWLs and NEWTs (Will they begin NEWTs >during 6th year?) OWLs are 5th I'm sure; NEWTs 7th I think. >But, it seems that Snape is not going >to be around Hogwarts in 5 - but, I >think in book 6 we find out more about >him... This is new to me. On what did you base this comment? --- Megan wrote: >In fact, it seems to me she's given >MORE clues about OOP (which I also >don't like to use as a title, because >I think it will change) than she gave about GOF when it first came out. Since OOP is a (fairly) standard publishing abbreviation meaning 'out of print', I wouldn't be surprised if she changed it. --- Donna (Neville fan) wrote: >I think the end of GOF marks the end >of Harry's childhood in a way. I agree. Harry started GoF as a boy and ended it as a young man, emotionally speaking. --- laura hickman wrote: >Good points... but who's to say >Dumbledore hadn't wanted Harry to see >the memories in the Pensieve... It just occurred to me: perhaps after Dumbledore dies, Harry will still be able to access his thoughts/memories through the Pensieve? --- Megan wrote: >I don't think we can classify Rita >under that category of "truly evil". >If she's evil, then Dobby and Lockhart >are too...because they irritate me >just as much. I don't think I quite understand you. It sounds like you're saying annoying = evil. >I think she's just there as someone to >hate and be annoyed with. I doubt >she's even intelligent enough to be >truly evil. evil adj 1: morally bad or wrong; [syn: wicked] [ant: good] 2: having the nature of vice [syn: depraved, vicious] 3: tending to cause great harm [syn: harmful, injurious] 4: having or exerting a malignant influence [syn: malefic, malevolent, malign] Source: WordNet 1.6, 1997 Princeton University By definitions 3 & 4, Rita Skeeter *is* evil. --- Becky wrote: >...why didn't Lupin ever try to take >Harry when he was a baby? 1. Dumbledore wanted him with the Dursleys & Lupin would respect that. 2. His lycanthropy. 3. No money. --- "Cindy C." wrote: >But what about the rest of the adult >HP characters, like Dumbledore, >McGonagall, Black, Lupin, Pettigrew, >Crouch Jr., Voldemort, Snape, Moody? >Are there any indications that any of >them can apparate? * Dumbledore apparates to Privet Drive in SS Chap 1. * McGonagall & Black are Animagi, thus should be powerful enough to apparate. * Snape, Crouch Jr & Pettigrew were DEs & apparating at a signal was a requirement. * Lupin, Moody & Voldemort are all very powerful, thus should be able. No one can Apparate or Disapparate on the Hogwarts grounds. I would assume the same holds true for Azkaban. ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 18:15:18 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:15:18 -0000 Subject: Evil (Rita) In-Reply-To: <9qmuca+3k7g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qn67m+io93@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27848 Cindy wrote: > But I really wanted to follow up on the statement "So, if we take > evilness in literary terms as fulfilling the role of the antagonist, > then Rita IS evil." Isn't it possible for the protagonist to be > evil, such that we can't always say that evilness = antagonist? Good point. Macbeth is the protagonist of Macbeth. Granting that our protagonist in HP is good, though, Luke's logic holds. > Also, (and I fear the following points may be directly contrary to > everything I just said), I have to wonder whether Rita is Evil > because I suspect that she doesn't do things specifically to hurt our > protagonists or anyone else. She does it to sell newspapers, and if > people get hurt, they get hurt due to the (possibly forseeable) Evil > reactions of others It's an interesting question whether one's actions would be evil if one were merely passing along information that others then abuse, but we don't have to delve into it, because Rita's actions go beyond that. She doesn't just gossip, she doesn't even just gossip maliciously: she lies. As for her intent, no, I don't think her purpose as such is to harm Harry, or Hermione, or Hagrid. However, pursuing one's selfish purposes even when they require one to stomp all over other people *is* evil, IMHO. Rita is a perfect example of using someone else as means to one's own ends; at first she's friendly toward Harry (though even then her stories are embarrassing and untruthful), by the end she's frankly vicious towards him, but they're in the service of the same goals: Rita's career/the newspaper's profit. Amy Z From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Oct 18 18:15:42 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:15:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who can apparate? In-Reply-To: <9qn399+sec7@eGroups.com> References: <9qn399+sec7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <617014334.20011018111542@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27849 Thursday, October 18, 2001, 10:24:57 AM, Cindy C. wrote: CC> Dobby does the house-elf version of apparating several times. I think this is different magic... CC> But what about the rest of the adult HP characters, like Dumbledore, CC> McGonagall, Black, Lupin, Pettigrew, Crouch Jr., Voldemort, Snape, CC> Moody? Snape and Moody almost certainly can... Apparating seems to be a requirement for being a Death Eater, and the Aurors would all probably want to be able to as well, to keep any DE's from escaping their grasp. CC> Black could have apparated CC> off of Azkaban instead of traveling as a dog. If Hogwarts has anti-apparition safeguards, I would imagine Azkaban does too... CC> Lupin could have CC> apparated to school instead of taking the train. Maybe he had just come out of another bad full moon night, and was just too exhasuted? CC> I think if I could created a fantasy world in which people CC> could apparate, they'd be apparating all over the place. I wonder CC> why JKR didn't approach it that way. Brooms are more fun. :) -- Dave From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 18:19:35 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:19:35 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who can apparate? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27850 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: "Cindy C." >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who can apparate? >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:24:57 -0000 >But what about the rest of the adult HP characters, like Dumbledore, >McGonagall, Black, Lupin, Pettigrew, Crouch Jr., Voldemort, Snape, >Moody? Are there any indications that any of them can apparate? Well, at least Dumbledore apparated on Privet Drive. >Apparating surely would have been a handy way for some of the >characters to travel at various times. Black could have apparated >off of Azkaban instead of traveling as a dog. Lupin could have >apparated to school instead of taking the train. Black didn't apparate, because it's not possible in Azcaban (it's a PRISON and only Sirius has excaped from it. You just can't have a working prison from where one can apparate from) and Hermione says several times that it's not possible in Hogwarts, either. Lupin may have apparated to Hogmeade, though, but he's taking the train to protect Harry (Sirius still under doubt and he knows to keep an eye for a big black dog)... >It seems that apparating is, for some reason, a very underused skill >in the wizarding world. We are told that it is difficult and that >people sometimes don't execute it correctly, so many people prefer >brooms. I think if I could created a fantasy world in which people >could apparate, they'd be apparating all over the place. I wonder >why JKR didn't approach it that way. Most characters are adolescents who can't (or aren't allowed to) apparate. (Though Harry may have apparated into the roof instead of levitating without even knowing it) Also, I think it's common skill - but rarely used to avoid rush. (What would happen if two people apparated into exactly the same place?) And about Sirius, well, after Harry was relatively safe, he went to Bali or another such place. Well, maybe he apparated there? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From djtarb at aol.com Thu Oct 18 18:33:16 2001 From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:33:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Question Message-ID: <152.2ac2e0e.29007a6c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27851 I have another thought about Rita. She was captured by Hermione immediately after the scene in Harry's hospital room where everyone was talking about V's return, Sirius revealed himself to Snape and Molly, and the initial plan was discussed. So she presumably has full knowledge of these things and much more. Yet Hermione says she intends to set her free once they reach London. Am I missing something here? Isn't Hermione putting everyone at risk by not taking her to Dumbledore immediately and putting the problem in his hands (or by not squashing the bug that is Rita, but I guess that would be a bad thing to do)? Or do we know that Rita S didn't hear anything or won't do anything about what she heard and I'm just too thick to see it? Sorry if this has been raised before. It really bothers me, though! Diane in Philly From bray.262 at osu.edu Thu Oct 18 14:34:32 2001 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:34:32 EST5EDT Subject: JK Rowling "most powerful list" Message-ID: <14819211F8@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 27852 The November issue of Ladies Home Journal lists Rowling the #6 most influential women. They rated them on cultural clout, financial impact, achievement, visibility, power to influence (which she was used as the example), intellectual impact, political know-how and staying power. Oprah was #1, by the way. The other authors on the list were Maya Angelou (#27) and Toni Morrison (#29). Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements For America means a bit more than tall towers, It means more than wealth or political powers, It's more than our enemies ever could guess, So may God bless America! Bless us! God bless! From prima_donna_23 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 18 18:42:47 2001 From: prima_donna_23 at yahoo.co.uk (prima_donna_23 at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:42:47 -0000 Subject: Scarred Moody, Prefects, Snape, Baby Harry & Lupin etc In-Reply-To: <20011018180926.70100.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qn7r7+gumg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27853 Scarred Moody - I'm not entirely sure that Moody would actually accept medical attention. Prefects - Think I'm going for the whole trio becoming prefects, I can't find any evidence that there can only be 2 prefects per house per year. Snape - I think that, while he won't be entirely absent for OoP, he will be in it less, dividing his time between teaching and his mission from Dumbledore. Baby Harry & Lupin - IMO, Lupin could have been checking up on Harry before PoA. Although I can't imagine him as one of the strange people who ran up to Harry in the street, I wouldn't rule out Lupin as the totally anonymous person in the supermarket who never actually speaks, but seems to occasionally turn up where Harry is. Kim From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 18:58:08 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:58:08 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SS/PS Chapter 06 Summary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27854 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >Questions: > >1) Why wasnt Harry told about the barrier to the platform nine and >three-quarters and how to get through it? To make him ask someone, perhaps, thus making a connection with other wizards? Also, it may have been so self-granted to Hagrid he just didn't think of it. >What do you think would have >happened if Harry hadnt figured out the barrier? Mmh... Dumbledore or Minerva would have arrived to pick him up, I guess. >2) Do you remember your first impressions of the Weasley family? Of Ron? >What were they? Harry's very first friends - and, aside from Hagrid, the first NICE people he met. 3) What was your first impression of Hermione? A reader - someone who just can't keep from reading. >Did you guess that she would >become a main character at this point? No. >4) Did you wonder at how Neville could so frequently lose his toad? Frequently? I presumed he lost it in the train and hadn't found it yet until Hagrid did it for him. >Did >anyone at this point think up the popular theory that Neville is under a >memory charm? No - just that he had happened to lose his pet... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 19:05:45 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:05:45 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evil or Irritating (was Re: Idle musings on Book Six) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27855 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >How is being irritating a criterion for being evil? > >Both the terms "irritating" and "evil" are conferrances of judgment, >but "irritating" is generally considered a subjective judgment and >"evil" an objective one. Hmm... Only such a one that is using unforgivable curse. (Crouch Jr. pretending to be Moody, Voldemort and Pettigrew) I'm on too minds about Krum - he may not be evil, only totally submissive to Imperius - like a house-elf. But, well, did he not do anything to even try to shrug it off when told to do something like cruciatus?? >Now, I'm the last person that should be talking about "good" and >"evil", because quite frankly I don't believe such a distinction truly >exists. I agree with that - no absolutes. >So, if we take evilness in literary terms as fulfilling the role of >the antagonist, then Rita IS evil Bad person - how dare she publish lies about Harry&friends??? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 19:38:16 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:38:16 -0000 Subject: The significance of first names in HP books. In-Reply-To: <200110181439.f9IEdMJ08406@zerg.codec.ro> Message-ID: <9qnb38+8nn1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27856 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Cezar Tabarcea wrote: > And i have two questions - first, what was, in the English original, the name > of the Sports expert from the MoM (in GoF ) - it's Ludo Verpey, in the French > edition; and also, if anyone from Paris reads this, i wonder if the English > editions of HP can be bought in Paris, somewhere. Is there an English bookstore > that may have these books for sale? > Cezar It's Ludovic, from the latin "ludus" for game and "vic" which can either mean to win. as in Caesar's "Veni vidi vici" or to lose, as in "victus." The English surname of Bagman is significant because that is the person who carries the stakes in a bet and pays off the winner. Haggridd From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 19:45:03 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:45:03 -0000 Subject: The significance of first names in HP books. In-Reply-To: <9qnb38+8nn1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qnbfv+ap4p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27857 Haggridd wrote: > It's Ludovic, from the latin "ludus" for game and "vic" which can > either mean to win. as in Caesar's "Veni vidi vici" or to lose, as in > "victus." > > The English surname of Bagman is significant because that is the > person who carries the stakes in a bet and pays off the winner. Which is why the translators often translate names--they're trying to preserve the wordplay. (At least, I hope that's the reason. Maybe they're just being pigheaded.) Cezar (welcome!), what does Verpey mean, if anything? Amy Z From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 19:49:49 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:49:49 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco as Prefect prediction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27858 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com It has to do with how exactly a prefect is chosen. All heads of houses may choose 2 or possibly 4 prefects each year. Sprout may choose one more the next year (because Cedric died during his 6th year). Snape might choose Draco. McGonagall believes in rules (and Harry's been breaking them and getting caught), but Harry was the /other/ winner of Tri-wizard Cup, and Dumbledore specifically praised Harry in public, announcing his respect for him. Also: 1) Harry needs to get to Dumbledore if his scar wakes him up. That'd be easiest if he was a prefect (knowing the password, and being half-entitled to wander around at night without being too obvious). 2) He's going to need a place where he can be alone. Easiest way to do that is to give him a room - prefects room. Dursleys... Are they going to leave Harry alone on a mention of Sirius or continue to tease Harry where he can't stand it and end up ballooning? (Harry's strong wandless magic may be giving him problems - even make him suicidal because he can't control it!) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From joym999 at aol.com Thu Oct 18 20:08:46 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:08:46 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #16 -- Last Chance! Message-ID: <9qncse+mptj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27859 This week's contest is still open. Submit your entry by email to HP4GUCon at aol.com or to the address above. Entries will be accepted until I check my email Friday morning (usually around 11am EST). Here's the contest: Among Dumbledore's accomplishments, according to his Chocolate Frogs card, is that he discovered the Twelve Uses of Dragon's Blood. According to an interview with whatshisname who wrote the movie screenplay, one of those 12 uses is Oven Cleaner. Some of the other 12 are, undoubtedly, ingredients for various potions. What do you think? Come up with one, two, three, or all twelve uses of dragon's blood, along with an explanation, if you like. (Feel free to ignore the oven cleaner possibility since it is not canon.) I will, as usual, start things off with a smartass (yet timely) suggestion: One of the 12 uses of dragon's blood is an antidote to anthrax poisoning. (Because wizards have been dealing with Voldy for so long, they are a lot better prepared than us muggles at dealing with terrorism.) --Joywitch From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Oct 18 20:10:33 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:10:33 -0000 Subject: Evil or Irritating (was Re: Idle musings on Book Six) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qncvp+p9oh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27860 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susanna Luhtanen" wrote: > > > >Now, I'm the last person that should be talking about "good" and > >"evil", because quite frankly I don't believe such a distinction truly > >exists. > > I agree with that - no absolutes. > Beloved friend, if there are no absolutes, what makes Harry's actions right, and Voldemort's actions wrong? Under what circumstances are genocide, infanticide, child molestation, or use of the Unforgivable Curses okay? If reason can be given for these things, then how are we to base our justice system? Does Jack the Ripper get excused because he was (probably) a doctor, and therefore educated enough to decide that prostitutes aren't worth living? Or would the abuses he (possibly) suffered at the hands of a promiscuous mother be a sufficient justification? How about he was trying to single handedly eliminate syphilis? If there are no absolutes, then not only is anything possible to man, but anything is permissable. 4FR (amazed that there is still a question about whether some things are absolutely wrong). From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 20:27:34 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:27:34 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Robes + Ethical Snape + Cheating Slytherins + Scarred Moody + AK + Dumbledore's Death + Prefect Possibilities + Snape Rumor + Post-GoF Harry + Pensieve + Evil Rita + Baby Harry & Lupin + Apparating Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27861 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >--- Tabouli wrote: > > >In a society where they can regrow > >bones overnight and phoenix tears can > >heal deadly snake bites, and amputees > >can be given magic silver hands, why > >on earth is Moody a one-legged, > >one-eyed flying purple mass of scar > >tissue? > >Perhaps there is a limited 'window of opportunity' for magical healing >during which there is no scarring? Could Neville's parents be healed by a Phoenix song? Think of Neville's mother as DADA and father as potions teacher... . > >--- Margaret Dean wrote: > > >I agree with you. I think Rowling has > >been preparing both Harry and the > >reader for this for the past two or > >three books: having Dumbledore show > >his age, having him warn Harry that he > >(Dumbledore) won't always be around to > >save the day, etc. > >I agree that Dumbledore won't be alive at the end of Book 7, but I >don't think he'll die until late in Book 6 or early in Book 7. Yes. Voldy kills him -> Harry defeats Voldemort because of that or dies. >--- Luke wrote: > >[an excellent post on Prefect Combos] > >Luke, you left out one possibility: > >Harry is chosen, but refuses to be, a Prefect. > >It's not what I expect -- I, personally, think that Hermione is a >'given' and Harry is likely to be chosen Prefect -- but I wouldn't feel >like it came out of left field if it happens. Given his current state >of mind and his personality, it would be in character. > >If Ron is then chosen and finds out later Harry was first-choice, it >could cause some problems. Nice idea, but Ron doesn't have excellent exams to qualify after breaking rules - but as Captain of Quidditch team he may be. >--- Susanna Luhtanen wrote: > >But, it seems that Snape is not going > >to be around Hogwarts in 5 - but, I > >think in book 6 we find out more about > >him... > >This is new to me. On what did you base this comment? Well, Dumbledore told him to do something -- (spying on Voldemort - he does have the death-eater mark) so er- he'd not be teaching potions or heading Slytherin - during book 5. I suspect Harry finds out until book 6... >--- laura hickman wrote: > > >Good points... but who's to say > >Dumbledore hadn't wanted Harry to see > >the memories in the Pensieve... > >It just occurred to me: perhaps after Dumbledore dies, Harry will >still be able to access his thoughts/memories through the Pensieve? Like it - Dumbledore leaving his Pensive to Harry in his Will. >evil adj >1: morally bad or wrong; [syn: wicked] [ant: good] >2: having the nature of vice [syn: depraved, vicious] >3: tending to cause great harm [syn: harmful, injurious] >4: having or exerting a malignant influence [syn: malefic, malevolent, >malign] >Source: WordNet 1.6, 1997 Princeton University > >By definitions 3 & 4, Rita Skeeter *is* evil. She is. Lockhart is proud and too free with Memory Charm, and Dobby is just plain good! >--- Becky wrote: > > >...why didn't Lupin ever try to take > >Harry when he was a baby? > >1. Dumbledore wanted him with the Dursleys & Lupin would respect that. >2. His lycanthropy. >3. No money. No money?? What's that have to do with him caring for the child? Harry might even pay him for it... Now there's an idea: Harry goes to live with Lupin and pays him rent! >--- "Cindy C." wrote: > > >But what about the rest of the adult > >HP characters, like Dumbledore, > >McGonagall, Black, Lupin, Pettigrew, > >Crouch Jr., Voldemort, Snape, Moody? > >Are there any indications that any of > >them can apparate? > >* Dumbledore apparates to Privet Drive in SS Chap 1. >* McGonagall & Black are Animagi, thus should be powerful enough to >apparate. >* Snape, Crouch Jr & Pettigrew were DEs & apparating at a signal was a >requirement. >* Lupin, Moody & Voldemort are all very powerful, thus should be able. > >No one can Apparate or Disapparate on the Hogwarts grounds. I would >assume the same holds true for Azkaban. True. Also: Most adults can apparate than but few do animagi (based on how Fred&George's : "Why can't we apparate as well?" and Molly's: "You're under age and you don't have a license..." the tone - as if they'd been talking about driving a car). Wonder if Harry would be able to apparate while in animagus form? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 20:32:36 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:32:36 -0000 Subject: Evil (Was: Robes + Ethical Snape) In-Reply-To: <20011018180926.70100.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qne94+rtom@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27862 Kelly wrote: > >I don't think we can classify Rita > >under that category of "truly evil". > >If she's evil, then Dobby and Lockhart > >are too...because they irritate me > >just as much. > > I don't think I quite understand you. It sounds like you're saying > annoying = evil. > > >I think she's just there as someone to > >hate and be annoyed with. I doubt > >she's even intelligent enough to be > >truly evil. > > evil adj > 1: morally bad or wrong; [syn: wicked] [ant: good] > 2: having the nature of vice [syn: depraved, vicious] > 3: tending to cause great harm [syn: harmful, injurious] > 4: having or exerting a malignant influence [syn: malefic, malevolent, > malign] > Source: WordNet ? 1.6, ? 1997 Princeton University > > By definitions 3 & 4, Rita Skeeter *is* evil. I am NOT saying annoying=evil. I believe that for practical application in Harry Potter, definition 1 is most APPROPRIATE. That's really the key--we have to look at evilness in a context. What constitues evil in Harry Potter's world? In short, alliance with Voldemort and other Dark Powers. What /I/ was saying was that IF Rita Skeeter (who I find extremely irritating) is classified as evil (by others), then Dobby and Lockhart must be equally "evil" by THIS DEFINITION (IMO, since I find them equally annoying as Rita). I think these are two seperate discussions. First we must find and examine the parameters of Harry Potter evilness, then apply those standards to individual characters in HP based on their actions and intent. A general definition of evil is not always appropriate when applied to literary works. Antagonist and evil are two seperate matters. My reaction to Rita is that she is not the "evil" character JKR was referring to originally. She is scum, annoying, and extremely slanderous, but up to the calibur of "evil" that we come to recognize in Harry Potter. Lockhart, similarly, is not evil as well. After all, though it may not affect the general public as much, he does ruin several people's lives much like Rita. -Megan (who, if Luke keeps posting epics like the one about character development, is never going to get her college admission essays finished) From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 20:33:18 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:33:18 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27863 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: djtarb at aol.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Question >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:33:16 EDT > >I have another thought about Rita. She was captured by Hermione >immediately after the scene in Harry's hospital room where everyone was >talking about V's return, Sirius revealed himself to Snape and Molly, and >the initial plan was discussed. So she presumably has full knowledge of >these things and much more. Yet Hermione says she intends to set her free >once they reach London. > >Am I missing something here? Isn't Hermione putting everyone at risk by >not taking her to Dumbledore immediately and putting the problem in his >hands (or by not squashing the bug that is Rita, but I guess that would be >a bad thing to do)? Or do we know that Rita S didn't hear anything or >won't do anything about what she heard and I'm just too thick to see it? > >Sorry if this has been raised before. It really bothers me, though! Rita might write about Sirius being innocent, how Voldemort is back etc. - in Light's favour! Hmm... I don't think she'll mention Black as unregistered animagus, it would reveal her - and well, Hermione could turn her in, right? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 18 20:36:33 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:36:33 -0000 Subject: Who can apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qnegh+asav@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27864 Susana wrote: > Well, at least Dumbledore apparated on Privet Drive. > I'm surprised at the consensus that Dumbledore apparated to Privet Drive in PS/SS. I thought it was possible that he arrived there as an animagus and then transformed. If he were a small animagus (e.g., a bee), then this is possible because his animagus transformation would look just like popping in out of thin air. Cindy wrote: > >Apparating surely would have been a handy way for some of the > >characters to travel at various times. Black could have apparated > >off of Azkaban instead of traveling as a dog. Lupin could have > >apparated to school instead of taking the train. > Susana wrote: > Black didn't apparate, because it's not possible in Azcaban (it's a PRISON > and only Sirius has excaped from it. You just can't have a working prison > from where one can apparate from). Good point about not being able to apparate from Azkaban. <*hits self on forehead for missing this*> But isn't it possible that Sirius is apparating at points during his journey to Hogwarts? Wasn't there the occasional Sirius Black sighting in PoA? If he is living only as a dog, then these sightings wouldn't happen, and it would be curious for MoM to put dementors in Hogsmeade and Hogwarts. I mean, how would they know where to focus their search? I would also assume that characters who can apparate have passed their exam and are competent and therefore aren't at risk of splinching or landing on top of people, which is why Molly allows Percy to apparate around the Burrow in GoF. Also, if Sirius accidently apparates next to someone who might apprehend him, he could just apparate away again before they grab him. But then again, to play devil's advocate, if Sirius can apparate, then MoM must know about it. He would probably have taken his exam like Percy did, and MoM would have a record of it. So that suggests MoM knows he can't apparate, so that's how they know to concentrate their search in Great Britain. > Sirius, well, after Harry was relatively safe, he went to Bali or another > such place. Well, maybe he apparated there? I don't think Sirius would have apparated to Bali or wherever he decided to hide because he needed to keep Buckbeak safe, and it's clear that Sirius still has Buckbeak by the time of GoF. So the characters who we are 100% sure can apparate are the adult Weasleys, Pettigrew, Snape, Lucius Malfoy, Bagman, Crouch Sr., other DEs, Hagrid (didn't he apparate to fetch Harry in PS/SS?). Characters who can probably apparate are Moody, Dumbledore, Sirius. Characters about whom we have minimal information and just have to guess are Lupin, McGonagal, other teachers. Does that work? Cindy (getting a little confused about whether Sirius can apparate) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 18 20:54:06 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:54:06 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Question In-Reply-To: <152.2ac2e0e.29007a6c@aol.com> Message-ID: <9qnfhe+6giv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27865 Diane wrote, > I have another thought about Rita. She was captured by Hermione immediately after the scene in Harry's hospital room where everyone was talking about V's return, Sirius revealed himself to Snape and Molly, and the initial plan was discussed. So she presumably has full knowledge of these things and much more. Yet Hermione says she intends to set her free once they reach London. > > Am I missing something here? Isn't Hermione putting everyone at risk by not taking her to Dumbledore immediately and putting the problem in his hands (or by not squashing the bug that is Rita, but I guess that would be a bad thing to do)? Or do we know that Rita S didn't hear anything or won't do anything about what she heard and I'm just too thick to see it? > Diane, No, I don't think you're missing anything, and this bothers me to no end. What is the penalty for being an unregistered Animagi? I don't think we're told this information. Well, if it is nothing more than a slap on the wrist, then Hermione is placing them all at risk by trying to blackmail Rita into not revealing some pretty critical information (like that Sirius is a dog, that Snape is a spy, that Dumbledore and Bill are meddling at MoM). Hermione's decision could get important members of Dumbledore's team captured or killed. But let's assume the penalty for being an unregistered Animagi is severe, like time in Azkaban (highly unlikely, IMHO). Then Hermione is still making a terrible mistake to trust Rita. Rita could reveal their secrets and then simply lie and deny she is an animagus. Although Sirius and Lupin have demonstrated that it is possible to cause an animagus animal to reveal himself (Pettigrew), there is no suggestion that anyone can tell who has the ability to be an animagus unless that person chooses to tell. If there were such a technique, you would think MoM would check all prisoners like Sirius before dumping them in Azkaban. Also, I see no reason why Rita couldn't just go register herself as an animagus upon arrival in London, saying she just learned to transform last week. Then, she could print all the nasty stories about Dumbledore plotting to cause trouble at MoM and Sirius being an animagus that she wishes to print. Hermione should have handed this matter over to Dumbledore. One quick memory charm on Rita, and the problem is solved. As it stands, Hermione may well be outsmarted by Rita, and Hermione should be smart enough to see that. This problem with Hermione and Rita is a recurring one in the books. Again and again, the students decide to handle things on their own rather than raise it with Dumbledore or another adult they can trust. Makes me want to pull my hair right out. Cindy From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 20:57:41 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:57:41 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil or Irritating (was Re: Idle musings on Book Six) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27866 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com > >Beloved friend, if there are no absolutes, what makes Harry's actions >right, and Voldemort's actions wrong? Under what circumstances are >genocide, infanticide, child molestation, or use of the Unforgivable >Curses okay? If reason can be given for these things, then how are >we to base our justice system? Does Jack the Ripper get excused >because he was (probably) a doctor, and therefore educated enough to >decide that prostitutes aren't worth living? Or would the abuses he >(possibly) suffered at the hands of a promiscuous mother be a >sufficient justification? How about he was trying to single handedly >eliminate syphilis? > >If there are no absolutes, then not only is anything possible to man, >but anything is permissable. 1) In an extreme situation there can be reasons to do what otherwise would not be permissible, for some things more extreme than others. 2) both motivation and consequences count. 3) A mental disease makes a deed (caused by the disease) neutral in moral judgment. I've tried and tried to find an ethical/moral code to suit EVERY situation, but I don't believe there is one. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 21:29:32 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:29:32 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who can apparate? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27867 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >Susana wrote: > > > Well, at least Dumbledore apparated on Privet Drive. > > > >I'm surprised at the consensus that Dumbledore apparated to Privet >Drive in PS/SS. I thought it was possible that he arrived there as >an animagus and then transformed. If he were a small animagus (e.g., >a bee), then this is possible because his animagus transformation >would look just like popping in out of thin air. I think he is just that - a bumblebee-animagus. (Would think the most powerful wizard to be one, huh?) > >But isn't it possible that Sirius is apparating at points during his >journey to Hogwarts? Wasn't there the occasional Sirius Black >sighting in PoA? If he is living only as a dog, then these sightings >wouldn't happen, and it would be curious for MoM to put dementors in >Hogsmeade and Hogwarts. I mean, how would they know where to focus >their search? They don't know. Lupin is a friend of Sirius - they may have assumed him paying a visit to a friend. >I would also assume that characters who can apparate have passed >their exam and are competent and therefore aren't at risk of >splinching or landing on top of people, which is why Molly allows >Percy to apparate around the Burrow in GoF. Also, if Sirius >accidently apparates next to someone who might apprehend him, he >could just apparate away again before they grab him. Sirius is animagus which indicates a powerful wizard. Based on reactions of some characters, apparation is something almost any wizard can do. >But then again, to play devil's advocate, if Sirius can apparate, >then MoM must know about it. He would probably have taken his exam >like Percy did, and MoM would have a record of it. So that suggests >MoM knows he can't apparate, so that's how they know to concentrate >their search in Great Britain. I think they didn't /know/ - it's just that MoM can (political reasons) only operate within it's borders. They might ask for co-operation and release if they're sure he's in some other country... > > Sirius, well, after Harry was relatively safe, he went to Bali or >another > > such place. Well, maybe he apparated there? > >I don't think Sirius would have apparated to Bali or wherever he >decided to hide because he needed to keep Buckbeak safe, and it's >clear that Sirius still has Buckbeak by the time of GoF. Apparating both? On other hand, maybe Sirius chose not to apparate, because it is too exhausting to do repeatedly. He's wanted and doesn't want to risk beeing seen. He doesn't have a wand etc. >So the characters who we are 100% sure can apparate are the adult >Weasleys, Pettigrew, Snape, Lucius Malfoy, Bagman, Crouch Sr., other >DEs, Hagrid (didn't he apparate to fetch Harry in PS/SS?). > >Characters who can probably apparate are Moody, Dumbledore, Sirius. Dumbledore... Well, considering how EVERY-DAY thing apparating is - I'm pretty sure they CAN. Moody as auror, Dumbledore as Powerful Wizard, Sirius as Animagus. But well, Dumbledore stays at Hogwarts, Lupin wanted to sleep in the train (where he was protecting Harry). >Characters about whom we have minimal information and just have to >guess are Lupin, McGonagal, other teachers. McGonagal is animagus. I'd say she can apparate, and Lupin as well. Though we only see Lupin /sleeping/ in the train and in Hogwarts grounds. >Cindy (getting a little confused about whether Sirius can apparate) Seems to appear in Hogsmeade as a dog often enough, I'd say. Maybe Sirius apparated into London after Harry took the Knight-bus, persuaded Lupin (I didn't kill anyone - protect Harry. Wormtail...), apparated into Hogsmeade, went as the dog into the Forbidden Forest where Lupin had lived during full Moon... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 21:53:48 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:53:48 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rita Skeeter Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27868 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >This problem with Hermione and Rita is a recurring one in the books. >Again and again, the students decide to handle things on their own >rather than raise it with Dumbledore or another adult they can >trust. Makes me want to pull my hair right out. Adult they can trust... 14-15 year-olds don't usually trust adults. Additionally, Ministry is after Sirius, an innocent convicted without trial. Minister of Magic, Cornelius Fudge didn't behave well when told about Voldemort. Their first DADA teacher was a Dark Wizard. Second one was trying to do memory-spell on them (for their own good) Third - Lupin, was worth a trust, but isn't there to be contacted. fourth - a dark wizard cheaming Harry into Voldemort's hands... They don't trust. Dumbledore's choices for DADA teachers make him under doubt (not to mention keeping Snape the Trio most definately doesnt trust!) Also, many others - in authority - aren't worth a trust. I think they trust more in themselves. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 22:10:29 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:10:29 -0000 Subject: Can Sirius Apparate? (was Who can apparate?) In-Reply-To: <9qnegh+asav@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qnk0l+ho96@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27869 Cindy wrote: >Wasn't there the occasional Sirius Black > sighting in PoA? If he is living only as a dog, then these sightings > wouldn't happen, and it would be curious for MoM to put dementors in > Hogsmeade and Hogwarts. I mean, how would they know where to focus > their search? They focus on Hogwarts even before he's seen near there, the reason being that he's been muttering about Hogwarts in his sleep and they think he's after Harry. He switches back out of dog form at least a few times before the Shrieking Shack scene: the times he tries to get past the Fat Lady and Sir Cadogan and the time he's sighted by a Muggle near Hogwarts. None of them have to have anything to do with Apparating. He's a man in the castle because he needs to be able to (a) talk and (b) stab Scabbers (maybe he'd have done better to return to dog form once in the dorm--dogs catch rats much more easily than humans do . . . hmm). The time a Muggle spots him, he probably has something similar he needs to do for which he has to be in human form. > I don't think Sirius would have apparated to Bali or wherever he > decided to hide because he needed to keep Buckbeak safe, and it's > clear that Sirius still has Buckbeak by the time of GoF. Jo has said somewhere that you can't Apparate very long distances, or was it even in GoF? I think the context was overseas--so 3000 miles is too far, but what the outer limit is, we don't know. How would we know if he *could* Apparate? We never have occasion to see him hurry from one place to another. It sure would've been handy in the confrontation with Snape at the end of PoA, but "you can't Apparate on the Hogwarts grounds!" Amy Z From fourfuries at aol.com Thu Oct 18 22:14:30 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:14:30 -0000 Subject: The Limits of Evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qnk86+n1ru@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27870 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susanna Luhtanen" wrote: > > 1) In an extreme situation there can be reasons to do what otherwise would > not be permissible, for some things more extreme than others. But is there always a justification for every act, or are some acts simply unjustifiable? For instance, can rape ever be justified? We know it happens, we know it is only prosecuted in a fraction of its instances, we know it occurs in time of war, but is it ever justified? Or should a man always be able to resist the urge to force himself on a woman? Why do you think the Unforgivable Curses are called unforgivable? Not because they are not used, but because there is no excuse that justifies their use. For the "Good" wizard, there are always other spells that will accomplish a noble goal. Only a "Dark" wizard, one who has given him or herself over to lust, pride, greed, etc, would ever try to justify the use of the Unforgivable. > 2) both motivation and consequences count. I agree that both motivation and consequences count to the victims or objects of our actions. But we can rarely foretell the consequences of any action, and the motivations are often complex, sometimes contradictory, and may even be the result of self deception. Andrew Carnegie says in his "How To Win friends and Influence People" that every inmate on death row thinks of himself as a good (if somewaht misunderstood) person. In any event, motivations often only become clear after the fact. But the actor knows, in his heart of hearts, the trueness or falseness of his intent. That is why a theory of Evil that turns on the extent to which the actor is gripped by one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins is a reliable theory. The only thing that counts in it is the one thing that the actor can control. The condition of his own personal morality. > 3) A mental disease makes a deed (caused by the disease) neutral in moral judgment. Uh, I think it makes the person not criminally responsible. The deed is still morally reprehensible. It still evokes in us the sense of outrage, shock or horror. The fact that it is committed by a child or an imbecile, or someone drunk or on drugs does not make the Consequence less evil. > I've tried and tried to find an ethical/moral code to suit EVERY > situation, but I don't believe there is one. Then try one of mine. Evil is the self centered, destructive lack of restraint in the areas of Self Importance (Pride), Self Satisfaction (Lust,Greed) Self Indulgence (Sloth,Gluttony), and Self Pity (Envy,Wrath). Good is the opposite, or the appropriate and neccessary exercise of Humility, Self Discipline and Concern for Others. I believe it works in every situation, but I welcome attempts to find an exception. 4FR (who just discovered Nietsche (whom Voldemort practically quotes), was moved by his writing, but not troubled by his philosophy, because words do such a poor job of conveying meaning) From klhurt at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 22:43:37 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who can apparate? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011018224337.30909.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27871 --- Susanna Luhtanen wrote: >Seems to appear in Hogsmeade as a dog >often enough, I'd say. >Maybe Sirius apparated into London >after Harry took the Knight-bus, >persuaded Lupin (I didn't kill anyone >- protect Harry. Wormtail...), >apparated into Hogsmeade, went as the >dog into the Forbidden Forest where >Lupin had lived during full Moon... This completely contradicts the plot of PoA. Lupin didn't know Sirius was innocent & Pettigrew was alive until the Shrieking Shack. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ===== Pensieve A Harry Potter List for Adults Low Traffic - High Quality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 23:19:05 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:19:05 -0000 Subject: The significance of first names in HP books. In-Reply-To: <9qnb38+8nn1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qno19+oopr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27872 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Cezar Tabarcea wrote: > > > And i have two questions - first, what was, in the English > > original, the name of the Sports expert from the MoM (in GoF ) - > > it's Ludo Verpey, in the French edition; and also, if anyone from > > Paris reads this, i wonder if the English editions of HP can be > > bought in Paris, somewhere. Is there an English bookstore > > that may have these books for sale? > > It's Ludovic, from the latin "ludus" for game and "vic" which can > either mean to win. as in Caesar's "Veni vidi vici" or to lose, as > in "victus." No, that's folk etymology. Ludovic is a medieval Latinization of the Germanic name, usually rendered as "Hludwig" = "famed warrior". The same "hlud" is the root of the name Lothair [= "famed army"]. The root is also related to the English "loud", "listen", etc. And, of course, the same "wig" is found in "Hedwig" = "hadu" + "wig" = "contentious war". The Germanic "wik" and Latin "vincere" _do_ stem from the same IE roots, but ludus and Hlud are not related.... ....Craig From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 23:24:37 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:24:37 -0000 Subject: Who can Apparate? In-Reply-To: <9qnegh+asav@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qnobl+608a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27873 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > I'm surprised at the consensus that Dumbledore apparated to Privet > Drive in PS/SS. I thought it was possible that he arrived there as > an animagus and then transformed. If he were a small animagus (e.g., > a bee), then this is possible because his animagus transformation > would look just like popping in out of thin air. Canon gives no suggestion for us to believe otherwise. If Animagi is so rare (according to McGonagall) then why are readers so willing to accept the fact that so many other characters are Animagi? It really doesn't make sense to me why you guys seem so willing to make these things up. There is, I repeat, no proof. > But isn't it possible that Sirius is apparating at points during his > journey to Hogwarts? Wasn't there the occasional Sirius Black > sighting in PoA? If he is living only as a dog, then these sightings > wouldn't happen, and it would be curious for MoM to put dementors in > Hogsmeade and Hogwarts. I mean, how would they know where to focus > their search? Has it been said that Sirius remains a dog the /entire/ time of his escape? Seems like that would be too energy-draining. Also, does Sirius have any motivation to Apparate? He doesn't have a wand & wishes to remain very discreet. Travelling cross-country as a dog seems much wiser. > > But then again, to play devil's advocate, if Sirius can apparate, > then MoM must know about it. He would probably have taken his exam > like Percy did, and MoM would have a record of it. So that suggests > MoM knows he can't apparate, so that's how they know to concentrate > their search in Great Britain. Seems to me like Apparating is something nearly every wizard/witch does as a means of transportation. I equate it to driving in the Muggle world. It has also been stated something to the effect of long-distance Apparating is impossible or extremely difficult. > I don't think Sirius would have apparated to Bali or wherever he > decided to hide because he needed to keep Buckbeak safe, and it's > clear that Sirius still has Buckbeak by the time of GoF. Sirius probably flew there using Buckbeak. As stated above, he no means and motivation to Apparate in the course of time we see him in the books thus far. This does NOT mean that he CANNOT Apparate, however...remember, Sirius IS a fugitive! I imagine criminals in the UK would use discreet public transportation even if they CAN drive. > > Cindy (getting a little confused about whether Sirius can apparate) I see no reason to believe otherwise!! It sounds to me like Apparating is something even Neville could manage (in time). Just because we don't actually SEE him doing it (and he has darned good reasons not to, if you ask me) in POA or GOF doesn't mean he's not physically able to!! -Megan (quite certain that Apparating beats driving any day) From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 23:41:40 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:41:40 -0000 Subject: The significance of first names in HP books. In-Reply-To: <9qnbfv+ap4p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qnpbk+ugpg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27874 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Cezar (welcome!), what does Verpey mean, if anything? The name is a homonymic spelling of the acronym V.R.P., pronounced "vay-air-pay", meaning "voyageur r?pr?sentant placier". A "bagman" in English has the double sense of a salesman who travels to call on customers as well as a racketeer assigned to collect or distribute payoff money. [Source: dictionary.com] V.R.P. captures the sense of traveling salesman. Per le Petit Larousse 1994, a V.R.P. is an "Interm?diaire du commerce qui prospecte la client?le et ree?oit les commandes pour le compte d'une ou plusieurs entreprises". ["A commercial middleman who canvasses customers and receives orders for one or more firms."] ....Craig From bak42 at netzero.net Thu Oct 18 23:45:54 2001 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:45:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rita Skeeter Question In-Reply-To: <9qnfhe+6giv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000601c1582f$0e313e60$15799e40@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 27875 But let's assume the penalty for being an unregistered Animagi is severe, like time in Azkaban (highly unlikely, IMHO). Then Hermione is still making a terrible mistake to trust Rita. Rita could reveal their secrets and then simply lie and deny she is an animagus. Although Sirius and Lupin have demonstrated that it is possible to cause an animagus animal to reveal himself (Pettigrew), there is no suggestion that anyone can tell who has the ability to be an animagus unless that person chooses to tell. If there were such a technique, you would think MoM would check all prisoners like Sirius before dumping them in Azkaban. Also, I see no reason why Rita couldn't just go register herself as an animagus upon arrival in London, saying she just learned to transform last week. Then, she could print all the nasty stories about Dumbledore plotting to cause trouble at MoM and Sirius being an animagus that she wishes to print. Finally someone else can see the flaw in Hermione's logic in dealing with Rita Skeeter. Who is the Ministry of Magic going to believe if Hermione does claim that Rita is an unregistered animagus a respected (by some) Journalist, or a few underage wizards. ---------------------------------------------------------- Brandon 73% Obsessed with Harry Potter Earth: Mostly harmless --The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy "You know," said Ron, whose hair was on end because of all the times he had run his fingers through it in frustration, "I think it's back to the old Divination standby." "What -- make it up?" --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 18 23:52:31 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:52:31 -0000 Subject: JK Rowling "most powerful list" In-Reply-To: <14819211F8@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <9qnpvv+uqsc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27876 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" wrote: > The November issue of Ladies Home Journal lists Rowling the > #6 most influential women. You said Oprah was #1 - who else was ranked above JKR? I'm sure Sen. Rodham was.... Rachel Bray > The Ohio State University > Fees, Deposits and Disbursements Yikes, Rachel!! - you work in Twin Towers, too! - CMC (OSU grad, class of '85) From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 19 00:02:32 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:02:32 -0000 Subject: The West Wing and HP In-Reply-To: <9qmrvd+6cui@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qnqio+pnel@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27877 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lily_solstar at h... wrote: > During the second half of the season premire of "The West Wing" last > night, I noticed that during one of the scenes, Abby (the first lady) > was reading the fourth Harry Potter book. > > -Lily Solstar > both a West Wing and a HP nut Let me insert a plug here for fellow-filker & HP4GU's very own Lisa Inman's terrific fanfic Teamwork in which HP and Co. meet Dubya Dubya and Co. http://www.geocities.com/goldenkey26/teamwork.htm - CMC From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Oct 19 00:45:18 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:45:18 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Chapter 06 Summary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qnt2v+8dpf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27879 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > > A warning: these questions are not the finest. They are a bit lame. Truly I > racked my brains but couldn't come up with anything better. If anyone can > think up more interesting ones, by all means pose them to the group! I know the feeling - I've done chapter summaries for the list and I remember the sinking feeling of only being able to come up with questions that everyone on the list has already discussed... > Questions: > > 1) Why wasn't Harry told about the barrier to the platform nine and > three-quarters and how to get through it? What do you think would have > happened if Harry hadn't figured out the barrier? I think it was one of those things that fell through the cracks. It's a minor detail in a way - it's not major like getting Harry into Diagon Alley where he'll learn about wands and wizard money and robes and owls etc. Maybe Hagrid was supposed to tell him, but, with everything else that had to be done, it slipped his mind > 2) Do you remember your first impressions of the Weasley family? Of Ron? > What were they? My first thought was "Oh, my God - it's the Conant family!!" They were a family that lived near me when I was a kid. The one girl in the family was my age and she had six brothers. They weren't red- heads, though. Not the answer you wanted, I know, but that's life... I liked Ron immediately because he connected with Harry quickly. He was generous with his knowledge and explanations of the wizard world where he could have been snotty - "Oh, you're the Boy-Who-Lived and you don't know squat about wizard life..." I liked the twins, too, because they seemed way too unimpressed with authority and very comfortable with themselves. > 3) What was your first impression of Hermione? Did you guess that she would > become a main character at this point? I think my first thought was that she would be one of those tedious "types" that serve to take up space. In Hermione's case I figured she'd be the uptight know-it-all. > 4) Did you wonder at how Neville could so frequently lose his toad? Did > anyone at this point think up the popular theory that Neville is under a > memory charm? No, I figured Neville was just passing through. Marianne, who wishes there was a charm that would enable readers to relive the emotions they experienced the first time when re-reading beloved books.... From joym999 at aol.com Fri Oct 19 01:11:09 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:11:09 -0000 Subject: L.O.O.N. memo was Re: Can Sirius Apparate? (was Who can apparate?) In-Reply-To: <9qnk0l+ho96@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qnujd+9neu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27880 To: HP4GU Fr: L.O.O.N. Re: Apparating --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Jo has said somewhere that you can't Apparate very long distances, or > was it even in GoF? QTTA, pg. 48: "Apparition becomes increasingly unreliable over very long distances, and only highly skilled wizards are wise to attempt it across continents." --Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, R.E.A.L.L.O.O.N. From degroote at altavista.com Fri Oct 19 01:11:22 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 18 Oct 2001 18:11:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 Message-ID: <20011019011122.21290.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27881 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From themoondoggirl at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 01:21:13 2001 From: themoondoggirl at hotmail.com (themoondoggirl at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:21:13 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Chapter 06 Summary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qnv69+58el@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27882 I have another question to add to the list! (I'm going to make the forgive-me-if-this-has-been-discussed-before disclaimer because I'm new here.) EVERY time I read SS, I always wonder why Harry didn't become friends with Draco, and why Draco wanted to become friends with Harry in the first place. Harry first meets Draco in Ch. 5, and their first converstation is actually friendly. Draco sounds somewhat snobby, but he certainly doesn't sound evil. And then on the train (here's when Ch. 6 comes in), Draco still attempts to be Harry's friend. Harry could have taken Draco's side as easily as he took Ron's. (Remember, Harry was meeting them all before he knew about the rules of the wizarding world. For all Harry knew, Draco could have been the good guy and Ron could have been the bad one.) So what, ultimately, made Harry choose Ron as a friend? And why did Draco want to be friends with Harry? OK, that's my two sense for my first post. I look forward to posting more in the future. Selena, who feels very strange identifying herself as such to a bunch of strangers when she's used to using the alias "moon-dog" From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Oct 19 01:24:52 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:24:52 -0000 Subject: Speculative analysis on the trio as prefects In-Reply-To: <9qlpu9+nb28@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qnvd4+q66g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27883 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Penny wrote: > > >I also cannot buy Ron being named a prefect & Harry not being named > one. There's no basis for that particular choice > > as best I can see. > Well, the basis I could see for not choosing Harry (other than his > being an inveterate rulebreaker) is that he is at the center of a war > for Wizarding As We Know It and as such has rather a lot on his plate. > The question of whether Ron would be a good candidate is independent > of this one. > > Amy Z Well, Harry is just following in James' footsteps. James was also a rulebreaker, and the professors knew it, but that didn't stop them from making him prefect and Head Boy. I see your point about Harry being at the center of the next war. I wonder, though, if Harry's peculiar position automatically disqualifies him from being named prefect. On the one hand, if Dumbledore and Co. want Harry to play a major part against Voldemort, or feel that Harry is destined to do this, whatever anyone else wants, you would think that they'd start preparing him more. There is a lot Harry doesn't know, starting with why V. wanted to kill him. On the other hand, if Dumbledore and Co. want Harry to be treated like anyone else at Hogwarts, then, if he has the qualifications to be a prefect, they must make him one. Or, at the very least, offer it to him and perhaps gently remind him (like he can forget) that Voldemort's increasing power might interfere with his prefect duties... Marianne > Professor Trelawney kept predicting Harry's > death, which he found extremely annoying. > -HP and the Goblet of Fire > --------------------------------------------- From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Oct 19 01:45:21 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:45:21 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Chapter 06 Summary In-Reply-To: <9qnv69+58el@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qo0jh+iu4k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27884 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., themoondoggirl at h... wrote: > > EVERY time I read SS, I always wonder why Harry didn't become friends > with Draco, and why Draco wanted to become friends with Harry in the > first place. Harry first meets Draco in Ch. 5, and their first > converstation is actually friendly. Draco sounds somewhat snobby, but > he certainly doesn't sound evil. And then on the train (here's when > Ch. 6 comes in), Draco still attempts to be Harry's friend. Harry > could have taken Draco's side as easily as he took Ron's. ) So what, ultimately, made > Harry choose Ron as a friend? And why did Draco want to be friends > with Harry? Several reasons. In that first conversation, when Draco talks about how he plans to try to manipulate his parents into getting him a racing broom, he reminds Harry of Dudley. So, the first impression Draco makes is a negative one in Harry's mind. And later in the same conversation, Draco makes disparaging remarks about Hagrid, which definitely rubs Harry the wrong way. I don't know that Draco wanted to be friends as much as he wanted to try to get Harry to be part of his entourage, if for no other reason than that Harry is famous in his own right. Draco makes the mistake of immediately bad-mouthing the Weasleys and then launching into the typical Malfoy elitist "our family is better than yours" nonsense. Now that I think about it, Harry get points for not even attempting to be polite to Draco, even though he's still very unsure of himself and how he fits into the wizarding world, and Draco could certainly provide him with an entry to a certain class of wizard family. Harry has an innate sense of what's right and wrong and he knows that Draco is wrong. > Selena, who feels very strange identifying herself as such to a bunch of strangers when she's used to using the alias "moon-dog" Marianne, alias "zarleycat" From cleffa at start.com.au Fri Oct 19 02:29:26 2001 From: cleffa at start.com.au (Kanna Ophelia) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:59:26 +0930 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SS/PS Chapter 06 Summary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27885 Original message from: themoondoggirl at hotmail.com >EVERY time I read SS, I always wonder why Harry didn't become friends >with Draco, and why Draco wanted to become friends with Harry in the >first place. I'm not so sure Draco did want to make friends initially... I kind of read him as being bored, and wanting - whether to cover up insecurity or out of genral boring egocentrism, depending on how you chose to read his character - to spout off to a handy audeince. *Any* audience. The whole Crabbe-Goyle thing suggests Draco isn't any too choosy who he gets his self affirmation from... Harry first meets Draco in Ch. 5, and their first >converstation is actually friendly. Draco sounds somewhat snobby, but >he certainly doesn't sound evil. Somewhat snobby? Draco comes across as a nasty piece of goods. Apologies to the Draco-Sues, but anyone who starts by slagging off everyone who comes into range, from Harry's own beloved friend (the first person to show him any real caring) to an entire House at the school - well, I'd hardly be overcome by a desire to make them my bosom buddy. His speech, whether intentionally or not, also had the effect of making Harry feel even more insecure in the wizarding world than he was feeling already. And we don't tend to like people who make us feel bad about ourselves. And then on the train (here's when >Ch. 6 comes in), Draco still attempts to be Harry's friend. Harry >could have taken Draco's side as easily as he took Ron's. So what, ultimately, made >Harry choose Ron as a friend? Hmm... I know that, in Harry's place, I'd feel less that Draco was trying to make friends then, as that he was trying to slime in well with the famous Boy who Lived... As for whose side Harry would more easily take... Well, look at it. In one corner, a snob who has already insulted someone Harry cares about, and who mocks someone simply because of lack of wealth - which is a despicable character trait. (I've always been vaguely bemused by people who describe Draco as witty - endless, semi-obsessive variations on "your parents don't have any money and mine do, ha ha" hardly strikes me as witty in any real sense of the word, let alone "someone's died/is going to die, ha ha.") And on the other corner - someone as alone and apparently uncertain of their place as Harry, someone willing to make themselves vulnerable over lack of money), someone who *needs* his friendship - and is being unfairly picked on by a bully. As it stands, Harry's choice of friend is a quite simple and effective device to show that Harry is a Good Kid - he can see real worth over flash, he has good instincts, and he's kind. If he was the kind of child who would choose Draco's side and join with him in mocking Ron for having no money - well, would we still be as inclined to sympathise with Harry over his adventures? Unless, of course, there was a kind of reversal as there was when Ron learned that spiteful mocking of Hermione was a Bad Thing and closed him off from a potential wonderful friend. It's worth remembering, I think, that the canonical Draco is often a very different beast from the tragic, romantic, beautiful, misunderstood and desperately in love with Harry/Ginny/Hermione Fan Draco. Yes, his father is dreadful and he's only a child, but that doesn't necessarily make him some kind of fallen angel. Besides, he picks on my precious adorable Neville. (Okay, so I'll freeely admit to haviong my own irrational fan allegiences... My beloved and I are going to break into the wizarding world, adopt Neville and give him all the adoring maternal love he needs so badly.) I'm currently dealing, as part of my Narcissa femmeslash fic, with the challenge of making an at least semicanonical Draco someone Narcissa can truly love, even though she's increasingly disgusted with what her own son represents, and hates his father. XXX Kanna-Ophelia cleffa at start.com.au www.geocities.com/diversiontactics/ ffnet: KannaOphelia __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au From golden_faile at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 03:30:27 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My Return!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011019033027.61893.qmail@web14601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27886 I know you probably didn't miss me since I lurk alot, but I am happy to be back none the less! My messages have been being bounced and I didn't realize it. I'm happy to see my groups again. Laila __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Oct 19 04:38:17 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:38:17 +1000 Subject: JKR vs CSL revisited Message-ID: <003001c15857$f6b5e780$ec90aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27887 Luke: >Poster A (I believe it was Tabouli) had assumed that the 'good character development' referred to having characters that were "fully fleshed-out" and therefore deemed Harry Potter was superior in this right. Poster B (I believe it was Steve Vander Ark) had assumed 'good character development' referred to having characters who grew and changed, and therefore deemed Narnia was superior in this right.< (...) > neither side was apparently aware that they were debating completely separate issues because of an alternate interpretation of a particular term.< Accch, but isn't "difference in definition of key terms" central to a lot of arguments? Especially those which occur across cultures, of course. I once had a client accompanying her (Japanese) husband to Japan, and one of the first things I got her to do was define a "good husband" to me, after which I contrasted this with the Japanese definition of a good husband and got her to identify possible areas of difficulty for herself. Anyway... I'm glad Luke has mentioned this, as I was a bit sad that that the HP/Narnia comparison discussion never got going (it was raised on September the 10th, which effectively ended it). Having no background in Eng. Lit. style analysis myself (though it's definitely my sort of thing...!), I'd be foolish to take Luke on here, but I will attempt to explain my interpretation of the word "development", technically incorrect tho' it be... I think I was talking about "development" from the an author's craft point of view. How well has the author "developed" believeable, fully-fleshed out characters with whom the readers can identify and feel acquainted? IMO, change in a character is part of what makes a character believable, and if and when characters *do* grow and change in a series (like Harry in HP, or Eustace in Narnia), the degree to which this is convincing in the context of the plot is a measure of the author's craft. >From this interpretation, I argued that JKR is a better "developer" than CSL, because her characters have distinct, recognisable voices and personalities, which we are able to analyse to the nth degree on a list like this. CSL's characters are nowhere near as deeply realised: they are, by and large, dolls with a small handful of distinguishing features (e.g. sweet young girl, gloomy Marsh Wiggle) which he steers through the much more fully realised descriptions of his magical world and adventures (now where did I leave that bullet-proof vest again?). As JKR includes *both* detailed characterisation *and* descriptions of her world and adventures therein, I argued that her work is more ambitious. Steve's defence (if it was indeed Steve) that CSL's characters "developed" (i.e. grow and change) more than JKR's is, I think, related to but less extensive than the point I was making. I think that growth and change are part of what Luke called "fleshing out" a character, and can be crafted well or less well. Yes, CSL's characters undergo dramatic changes in Narnia, more dramatic than JKR's do in the Wizarding World, but from the "author's craft" position I was taking, what is important is not how much the characters change, but how well the author handles the change. Is the change believable and convincing, from what we know about the character's personality and how s/he is likely to respond to the events which prompted the change? I think that the changes in JKR's characters, though subtle, are entirely believable, whereas the dramatic "reform" of Eustace from spoilt, condescending whinger to noble nice young man is a bit too much, and I don't like the way CSL signposts it with "from that time forth Eustace became a different boy". In my view, the reason why CSL has to signpost the change in that way is because we really don't have enough insight into Eustace's personality and thinking and "voice" to accompany him through the change and recognise him afterward. In order to track the shift from "spoilt, condescending whinger doll" to "noble, nice doll with the same name" CSL needs to point it out to his readers. By contrast, JKR does not need to fly "from that time forth Hermione became a different girl" flags in the narrative voice (though she occasionally does, albeit in the voice of her characters), because she "shows" us, she doesn't need to "tell" us about it. We understand Hermione, and we can appreciate how what happens to her in the books cause her to change without suddenly failing to recognise her. What I thought was particularly interesting was the comment that CSL is working from a Christian perspective of repentance and reform, which neatly explains his habit of one step transformations of Edmund and Eustace. Anyway. Don't get me wrong, I love the Narnia books. I just think that they're much more firmly embedded in the simple, tidy fairy tale world than Harry Potter, which is peopled with complex, believable, unique human characters. Tabouli (bracing herself for the counter attack...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 04:46:58 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 04:46:58 -0000 Subject: JKR vs CSL revisited In-Reply-To: <003001c15857$f6b5e780$ec90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9qob82+6pmg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27888 Tabouli wrote: > By contrast, JKR does not need to fly "from that time forth >Hermione became a different girl" flags in the narrative voice >(though she occasionally does, albeit in the voice of her >characters), because she "shows" us, she doesn't need to "tell" us >about it. We understand Hermione, and we can appreciate how what >happens to her in the books >cause her to change without suddenly failing to recognise her. YES, beautifully said, and this is why I like it that Hermione still has flare-ups of bossiness/know-it-all-hood , even in GoF. Some have said that it shows she hasn't changed her ways. I think she has changed, a lot, but like most real people she doesn't completely cast aside a characteristic. It's excellent writing on JKR's part, IMO. > What I thought was particularly interesting was the comment that CSL >is working from a Christian perspective of repentance and reform, >which neatly explains his habit of one step transformations of Edmund >and Eustace. I'm not a Christian, but I'll venture to say that even from the Christian perspective, repentance and reform are not a simple, one-step thing. That's CSL's own take. He softens it a bit--Edmund and Eustace don't become perfect little angels--but I agree, it is more simplistic than JKR's. He has other strengths, however, that she lacks. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- James and Sirius waited outside the Shrieking Shack for Remus to transform. "Damn it," said Sirius, looking at his watch. "The moon's been up for an hour." James sighed. "Well, you know how it is, Sirius. He won't transform without a Plot Device." -Moon and Hyphen, "The Fic That Must Not Be Named" --------------------------------------------------------- From frances at forever.u-net.com Fri Oct 19 07:49:06 2001 From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:49:06 -0000 Subject: British advanced screening of HP Message-ID: <9qolti+911p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27889 For Brits on this group, my local cinema is having advanced screenings on 10 and 11 November. So keep an eye on your local press in case your cinema does the same!!! Frances From lake4fam at earthlink.net Fri Oct 19 07:50:22 2001 From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:50:22 -0000 Subject: Can Sirius Apparate and beyond Message-ID: <9qolvu+2rnv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27890 In her posting, Amy Z asked why Sirius (for whom I am developing a real desire to serve fattening food and with whom to take lo-o-ong hot tub baths) did not try to take Scabbers out in his Animagus form. Herewith I offer the picture of a dog looking like a cross between a black Lab and a Rottweiller bouncing all over Hogwarts Castle hunting a rat whose body is being run by a wizard's brain...remember that they use open flames for lighting, and that suits of armour make an incredible racket when they land on stone floors. dittany, who would not want to be the custodienne (or house-elf) in Hogwarts on the morning after THAT epic night From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Oct 19 09:04:03 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:04:03 -0000 Subject: British advanced screening of HP In-Reply-To: <9qolti+911p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qoqa3+ncok@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27891 As far as spoiler reports go, also dont forget that the film will actually be launched at inbvitation-only premieres from 4 November(I think) onwards. One was announced for 6 November for Edinburgh. So reviews will be appearing in the press about then. Anti-spolier measures need to be in place before then??? Edis frances at f... wrote: > For Brits on this group, my local cinema is having advanced screenings on 10 and 11 November. From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Oct 19 09:03:58 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:03:58 -0000 Subject: British advanced screening of HP In-Reply-To: <9qolti+911p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qoq9u+u098@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27892 As far as spoiler reports go, also dont forget that the film will actually be launched at inbvitation-only premieres from 4 November(I think) onwards. One was announced for 6 November for Edinburgh. So reviews will be appearing in the press about then. Anti-spolier measures need to be in place before then??? Edis frances at f... wrote: > For Brits on this group, my local cinema is having advanced screenings on 10 and 11 November. From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Oct 19 09:05:55 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:05:55 -0000 Subject: Movie - locations for shots (Press story) Message-ID: <9qoqdj+ibi6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27893 Potterverse film articles starting in the British press EXAMPLE: Hogwarts and all If Harry Potter's world is a fantasy, it's a peculiarly British one. Which is why there was nowhere more appropriate to shoot the film than in the UK's cathedrals, castles and suburbs. Gareth McLean joins the Harry Potter trail http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,4120,576530,00.html text includes >>> the Bodleian Library - in all its delicate, ornately carved glory - is one of the locations used for the filming of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. While it might raise a few donnish eyebrows should a lifesize cardboard cut-out of the boy wizard turn up alongside the library catalogue, it is surely a merchandising opportunity too good for the university to miss. For, come November 16 the Bodleian (which first opened to readers in 1602) may well be attracting visitors who aren't there to see the Drake Chair, made of timbers from Sir Francis's vessel, or one of the country's finest examples of the late Gothic or perpendicular English architectural style. They'll be there to ooh and aah at the spaces that doubled as Hogwarts infirmary, dining room and library, even if the university doesn't publicise its links to the film. <<< From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Oct 19 09:16:29 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:16:29 -0000 Subject: JKR vs CSL revisited In-Reply-To: <003001c15857$f6b5e780$ec90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9qor1d+343p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27894 Follwing on from a number of threads really... http://film.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/news/0,10608,549560,00.html This previews a new chapter in Michael and Margaret Rustin's study of children's literature, Narratives of Love and Loss, published by Karnac Books. This revised edition with Harry potter analysis will be published in next few weeks. (So dont rush out and get the 1987 roiginal) text includes: It is a story that is already worth more than $100 million of investment to film-makers at Warner Brothers, with much more to come. It has made its once impoverished author a millionaire many times over, while its enormous popularity in 200 countries and 47 languages is self-evident. Now a child psychotherapist is to reveal exactly how J.K. Rowling did it. A theory to be published next month will aim for the first time to explain the success of Harry Potter in psychological terms. Margaret Rustin, a distinguished psychotherapist at London's Tavistock Clinic, has isolated the factors in Rowling's work that ensure its appeal for adults and children. This story of wizards, potions and broomsticks, it turns out, in fact deals with archetypal fears of loss and separation and, as such, is copying a formula set down by other great works of children's literature, such as C.S. Lewis's The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. <<< From vheggie at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 10:15:16 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:15:16 -0000 Subject: Previous Dark wizards.... Message-ID: <9qoufk+9lne@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27895 Right at the beginning of PoA, whilst recapping on the previous stories, the narrator states that "They [Lily and James] had been murdered, murdered by the most feared Dark wizard for a hundred years, Lord Voldemort" Is this just a turn of phrase, or was there really another dark wizard uprising towards the end of the nineteenth century? From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Oct 19 10:39:18 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:39:18 +1000 Subject: JKR & CSL continued Message-ID: <001a01c1588a$67421640$9392aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27896 Amy Z (replying to my comment below): >> What I thought was particularly interesting was the comment that CSL >>is working from a Christian perspective of repentance and reform, >>which neatly explains his habit of one step transformations of Edmund >>and Eustace. > >I'm not a Christian, but I'll venture to say that even from the >Christian perspective, repentance and reform are not a simple, >one-step thing. That's CSL's own take. He softens it a bit--Edmund >and Eustace don't become perfect little angels--but I agree, it is >more simplistic than JKR's. He has other strengths, however, that she lacks. Oo, yes, sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that all Christians think "repent and let Jesus into your heart" equals a total personality makeover. (I'm not a Christian either, obviously enough, but I did attend Sunday School and then church for about 15 years, and briefly considered myself a Christian, aged around 10-12). I meant that CSL's "character growth" is a simplistic, fairytale style "character reform", and that these reformations seem to take the pattern of: 1. Character is led into sin (by vegetarian parents who subscribe to dangerous progressive education, Turkish Delight, a message written under a bell, etc.), 2. Character is punished for the sin (by transformation into a dragon, being seized and exploited by anasty witch, etc.), 3. Character repents of the sin, aided by Aslan (Jesus figure) 4. The other Good Characters forgive the character and welcome him/her back into the fold, a new and better person. Definitely a touch of the Biblical "Forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness", I think. I also agree that CSL has other strengths that JKR lacks, the most obvious one (as someone mentioned) his self-discipline in controlling the length of his books. His more simplistic approach gives his work a clarity and purity which HP lacks, and the world he creates has a freshness the wizarding world doesn't, perhaps because JKR's work is satirical and CSL's is allegorical (which may also explain why JKR's work is so much funnier...) Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SALeathem at aol.com Fri Oct 19 10:49:10 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:49:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Previous Dark wizards.... Message-ID: <15b.2b6fa84.29015f26@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27897 In a message dated 19/10/2001 11:15:50 GMT Daylight Time, vheggie at yahoo.com writes: << Right at the beginning of PoA, whilst recapping on the previous stories, the narrator states that "They [Lily and James] had been murdered, murdered by the most feared Dark wizard for a hundred years, Lord Voldemort" Is this just a turn of phrase, or was there really another dark wizard uprising towards the end of the nineteenth century? >> One possibility would be Grindelwald. I dunno when he came to power, but on Hogwarts Express in PS, Harry hands Ron a chocolate frog and the card inside is Dumbledore. Written on the card is the following: ... Professor Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945,.... Going from his death it would only have been around 35-40 years before Voldemort came to power, but depending on how long Grindelwald had been around... But I'm sure somone else knows more than me. :o) Sara From SALeathem at aol.com Fri Oct 19 10:52:40 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:52:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British advanced screening of HP Message-ID: <62.159a2dea.29015ff8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27898 In a message dated 19/10/2001 10:06:18 GMT Daylight Time, A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk writes: << So reviews will be appearing in the press about then. Anti-spolier measures need to be in place before then??? >> Possibly in place now. New issue of SFX carries a very big Harry Potter feature, with a hint at whats happening in the film, and one part in particular doesn't sound too good. Lots of nice pictures though. Sara From Griffindorlion at aol.com Fri Oct 19 11:28:59 2001 From: Griffindorlion at aol.com (Tracey) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:28:59 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <9qp2pr+3vv6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27899 So far I have only been lurking but I was reading the FAQ and wanted to make a comment about who is older when it comes to Hermione and Harry. My birthday is two weeks after Harry's and I live in London. In every school year I was always the youngest in all my classes. Therefore going by my own experiences I would say that Hermione has to be 10 months older than Harry. I appologise if this subject has been well and truely covered and I will go back to lurking now :o) From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Oct 19 11:51:03 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:51:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] hermione and Harry-ages Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27900 I was just talking with Ebony about this last night. Clearly, hogwarts predates the british school system, and while its possible that hogwarts changed the deadline to mesh with the British school system, I think its just as likely that they use deadlines made in ancient times - likely options would be the solstice or Halloween. I know you're saying Angelina's birthday is before Halloween, but a few hndred years ago, Britain "jumped" forward about 15 days when switching calendars- and the Hogwarts date might be somehow linked to the old "All Hollows Eve." -----Original Message----- From: Tracey To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri Oct 19 07:28:59 2001 Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown) Real-To: "Tracey" So far I have only been lurking but I was reading the FAQ and wanted to make a comment about who is older when it comes to Hermione and Harry. My birthday is two weeks after Harry's and I live in London. In every school year I was always the youngest in all my classes. Therefore going by my own experiences I would say that Hermione has to be 10 months older than Harry. I appologise if this subject has been well and truely covered and I will go back to lurking now :o) ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Oct 19 11:53:49 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:53:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] hermione and Harry-ages Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27901 Erp! Mods forgive me for this "repost" - I meant Equinox. And Hallows. -----Original Message----- From: Tandy, Heidi To: 'HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com' Sent: Fri Oct 19 07:51:03 2001 Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] hermione and Harry-ages Real-To: "Tandy, Heidi" I was just talking with Ebony about this last night. Clearly, hogwarts predates the british school system, and while its possible that hogwarts changed the deadline to mesh with the British school system, I think its just as likely that they use deadlines made in ancient times - likely options would be the solstice or Halloween. I know you're saying Angelina's birthday is before Halloween, but a few hndred years ago, Britain "jumped" forward about 15 days when switching calendars- and the Hogwarts date might be somehow linked to the old "All Hollows Eve." -----Original Message----- From: Tracey To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri Oct 19 07:28:59 2001 Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown) Real-To: "Tracey" So far I have only been lurking but I was reading the FAQ and wanted to make a comment about who is older when it comes to Hermione and Harry. My birthday is two weeks after Harry's and I live in London. In every school year I was always the youngest in all my classes. Therefore going by my own experiences I would say that Hermione has to be 10 months older than Harry. I appologise if this subject has been well and truely covered and I will go back to lurking now :o) ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de Fri Oct 19 12:20:46 2001 From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 12:20:46 -0000 Subject: The significance of first names in HP books. Message-ID: <9qp5qu+i9sq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27902 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ginny Gryffindor" wrote: I wonder, why "Hermione"? All I know is that Hermione > is Helen's daughter, and wife to Neoptolemus (did I spell that > right?) and later, Orestes. (I sincerely hope I didn't mess up > on that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.). Any ideas? The mythical Hermione was supposed to be very wise and learned - I guess that is the reason for becoming our Hermione?s namesake. The mythical Hermione died a tragic death - I severly hope this will *not* happen to ours. My favourite name game is Lily and Petunia. A friend of mine (who is more into botany than I) pointed out to me that the lily and the petunia are in the same biological family - whose name translates as "Nightshadow" plants. And, get this - they are the only ones in that family that are relatively harmless. All other plants in this family are highly poisonous! The petunia is not very special or beatiful if you compare it to the lily - which is also true for the sisters. Another flower name is Narcissa Malfoy. The Narcissus of Greek mythology was a veeerrrryyyy handsome young men - and very much in love with himself. One day he came to a river and saw his own flace reflected. He was soooo enchanted by his looks that he just stood there until some god transformed him into the same named flower. That is where the word narcistic comes from. Ethanol From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 19 13:05:23 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:05:23 +0100 Subject: Advance showing of the Movie!! Message-ID: <007401c1589e$f42dbdc0$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27903 Just couldn't resist the chance to leap around and shout 'YIPPEEEE!!!' to you all - the official UK date is 16th November, but the cinema in Enfield (North London) is selling tickets for 10th and 11th, and we've just booked 8 tickets!!!! So anyone in North London should try and book, and anyone else might try their locals JIC! Lucy, suddenly thinking that perhaps other people all knew this, or even got earlier tickets, but doesn't care and is going to send this anyway! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 19 13:09:28 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:09:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse References: <9qff4r+4evt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <008601c1589f$880ecc00$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27904 The thing that really gets me, is WHY does Crouch/Moody teach Harry how to throw off the Imperious Curse? He already knows Harry is very unusual, and plans to give him to Voldemort to kill, so why on earth does he give him all that extra practice in that class to give Harry another weapon to use??? Lucy, very confused on this ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy C. To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > I could be wrong but I get the impression that > being able to throw the Imperious Curse off in > minutes, as Harry does, is highly unusual. Judging > from the cases of Crouch Jr. and Sr. it would seem > most wizards have to build up resistance over a period > of time. > Krum of course never had a chance to do so, (the > poor boy probably feels wretched about attacking > Cedric, especially as he can never now apologize to > him). > I believe Crouch Jr. kept Moody unconscious for > the most part specifically in order to keep him from > working up the necessary resistance to break the > curse. > I agree, and I also wonder if resisting the Imperius curse is easier if you are standing there aware that it is coming. On each occasion that Harry threw it off, he had some inkling that it might be coming. Even Voldemort points his wand and says "Answer Me. Imperio" or some such. I imagine Krum had no clue that the curse was coming. Moody was outside the maze, firing curses through the hedge. Anyway, I also think you're correct that Crouch Jr. kept Moody unconscious so he wouldn't resist the curse. It makes you wonder why Wormtail/Voldemort didn't think of this. Unless Wormtail was supposed to Stun Crouch Sr. and just "forgot." Cindy Cindy Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 19 13:12:13 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:12:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Dan's Eyes (WAS: Dark Injuries) References: <9qfr99+5evg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <009201c1589f$d15c0e40$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27905 It would of course be extra-fun if they can do something technical to give him green eyes, but he looks so perfect that I would hope most people would forgive the eyes if not. I know when I first saw the still of the 3 of them, I just thought 'wow!', and when I've seen the trailers just about everyone has looked just as I imagined!! Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: Megan To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:25 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Dan's Eyes (WAS: Dark Injuries) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Martin Hooper wrote: > At 21:42 15/10/01, you wrote: > >-Megan (anal enough to notice Daniel Radcliffe's eyes are not green in > >the production shots/stills) > > Megan - I read somewhere that Daniel tried the green contact lenses and > they didn't work out. They are going to sort in with CGI I think... > > > Martin Hooper I do know this, I had, however, observed that the eyes were NOT put through the green filter on production & promo shots where he poses as Harry Potter. Just being nit-picky :-D. -Megan (immensely enjoying that now she is not the most obsessed person she knows) ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 19 13:17:33 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:17:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 References: <9qh2p3+8v1j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00a701c158a0$ae3e1380$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27906 I think it's possible Draco won't be a prefect - surely Dumbledore has the final say, and he knows fine well that the Malfoys are Death Eaters, and won't want to give Draco that power. Then Harry won't be one either because of his safety and rule breaking, but perhaps Hermione and Ron will be. Hermione because of being so clever, and Ron must be clever to get through a year of school with a broken wand, and also because I like him! Then Ron & Hermione will spend extra time together, notice each other, and that will eventually leave Harry to notice poor old Ginny - yippee, that's how I want the 4 of them to end up!! Lucy, who'd like to know if there are any fanfics where Harry ends up with Ginny and Ron with Hermione? ----- Original Message ----- From: Sofie To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 11:39 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marcus wrote: > So the only way Harry won't be a prefect is if Draco > isn't made one. Then all bets are off. > Does anybody think Draco won't be appointed one? Well I thought prefects were decided by all the house heads so won't McGonagall, Flitwick or Sprout vote against Draco, being that he causes trouble all the time. Just my two sickles, Sofie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 19 13:24:04 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:24:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny Weasley was Re: Book 5 predictions References: <9qhp1v+am5b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c158a1$898eca60$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27907 Something that's started worrying me as I catch up with these posts - people are saying something major will die, someone that will half-crucify JKR to kill off. Then when asked if Harry will notice Ginny, she says something like 'you'll see, poor Ginny, eh'. Perhaps Harry might / might not notice her and fall in love etc, but then she'll be the one to die, leaving Harry even more devastated by the death of his first girlfriend!! Eek! Jo, if you do lurk on these lists, please don't do that to Ginny!!! Lucy, now rather worried about poor little Ginny ----- Original Message ----- From: foxmoth at qnet.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 5:59 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny Weasley was Re: Book 5 predictions --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > > Can't resist -- how exactly is she "prepping" us for a H/G romance, > given that Ginny has had very very very little on-screen time & > development as a character? Ginny isn't even mentioned after the Yule > Ball scene when we see her dancing with Neville as best I recall. Nah > ... sorry but I fall into the camp that H/G is the ship with the least > likelihood of happening. Can't resist jumping on this, even though I'm on my way to Ireland today and you all will have to do without my stellar commentary for about 12 days or so... IMO, the best bit of evidence for H/G is structural. Ginny is the first eligible girl that Harry sees. Just as displaying a gun in the first act requires a duel in the third, the first girl the hero sees at the beginning of his adventures will be the one for him...unless she turns out to be his sister or something, which seems unlikely in this case. The lack of character development so far is part of the pattern. Ginny, IMO, is like the girl-next-door. Harry and the reader must be led to discount her, until some turn of events farther along in the story changes Harry's mind. Pippin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From denisflynn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 19 13:49:29 2001 From: denisflynn at yahoo.co.uk (denisflynn at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:49:29 -0000 Subject: HP Game 4 grownups too! Message-ID: <9qpb19+aic5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27908 Hello there! I'm a newbie with this group. As my 1st contribution, thought you might like to check out this Harry P Quiditch games: http://www.cartoonnetwork.co.uk/link/harry_potter/6.html Beater game is pretty cool, but Seaker is a bit easy. Over and out Den From degroote at altavista.com Fri Oct 19 13:57:18 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 19 Oct 2001 06:57:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5 Message-ID: <20011019135718.6850.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27909 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 19 14:00:52 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:00:52 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown) References: <9qp2pr+3vv6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <014f01c158a6$78221700$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 27910 Sounds about right to me Tracey, my birthday is 10 days before Harry. I still get confused when talking about school years because other people were 11 for most of the year that I was only 10 in, and so on! Lucy, who has just about caught up her 400+ email at long last, and is now going to go and do something different, like perhaps read some Harry Potter?? ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracey To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 12:28 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] (unknown) So far I have only been lurking but I was reading the FAQ and wanted to make a comment about who is older when it comes to Hermione and Harry. My birthday is two weeks after Harry's and I live in London. In every school year I was always the youngest in all my classes. Therefore going by my own experiences I would say that Hermione has to be 10 months older than Harry. I appologise if this subject has been well and truely covered and I will go back to lurking now :o) ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From magic_dust_99 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 14:12:58 2001 From: magic_dust_99 at yahoo.com (magic_dust_99 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:12:58 -0000 Subject: Ginny Weasley was Re: Book 5 predictions In-Reply-To: <00ba01c158a1$898eca60$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <9qpcda+6drc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27911 Girl next door or not, Ginny most definetely has a crush on Harry. I'm thinking that with Cho so upset over Cedric Ginny'll probably start offering advice to Harry following the best Dawson's Creek traditions and this will probably have the same effect as the Pacey/Joey love thing going on. Incidentally, on-screen time or not, she takes up a good chunk of the second book with her trials and tribulations as "owner" of Tom Riddle's Diary, so I think she's in the running for love interest. And with regards to Ginny dying, if she does it won't just half- crucify J.K.Rowling but also put a spike in the works of the Weasley family (who are by far the family I wish I had) and that might upset the whole working of the books. On a lighter note, I'm looking forward to reading "The Order of The Phoenix" and I'm waiting with bated breath to see exactly how Snape- like Alan Rickman can be.... Yours, Magic Dust! From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 19 14:50:50 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:50:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5) In-Reply-To: <20011019135718.6850.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <9qpeka+6gki@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27912 punkieshazam at y... wrote: > > > > > In response to Petunia's hostility to Lily: > > > > When Tom Riddle killed his father and grandparents, he claimed his > > inheritance. He then lived in both the Muggle and Wizarding worlds. He > > used the Riddle money to finance his growing evil empire. He used the > > name Evans in the Muggle world, married a Muggle woman and they had > > two daughters--Petunia and Lily. Petunia is a squib, and just like > > Argus Filch, she is very antagonistic to those who can. This is why > > Tom/Voldemort was so reluctant to kill his own daughter. He spoke very > > familiarly to her "Lily, you foolish girl" or something like that. > > > > So Voldemort is Harry's grandfather, thus the physical resemblance. Am > > clueless as to why Voldie wanted to kill Harry. Maybe he didn't come > > to kill him, just take him away to make him a truly evil Wizard and > > Lily and James were apalled and resisted. > > > > Punkie > > > > I love a good wild theory, and this is pretty darn good. But I'm not sure it explains everything about Voldemort's "Stand aside, silly girl" dialogue. No matter how you slice it, Voldemort does not have to kill Lily to get to Harry. A well-placed "Accio Harry" ought to do it. Or he could just Stun Lily or do that paralyzing charm Hermione performs on Neville. If he kills Lily without trying these other things first, it is because he doesn't care much if she dies, IMHO. Even a poor father figure like Voldemort probably cares enough for his own daughter to try to kill her son without killing her unnecessarily. (I can't believe I just wrote that sentence.) So why would Voldemort be reluctant to kill Lily? Maybe he needed her alive for some reason, like she had some information he needed. The information was valuable, but not so valuable so as to distract Voldemort from his main mission, which was to kill Harry. I have no idea what that information might be, though. Cindy (who has always been puzzled that Voldemort calls Lily, a grown woman with a child, "silly girl") From justanopinion2001me at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 15:01:18 2001 From: justanopinion2001me at yahoo.com (justanopinion2001me at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:01:18 -0000 Subject: Who SHOULD Die in OoP? Message-ID: <9qpf7u+10ldg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27913 We've talked a lot about which characters we predict will die in OoP. We've formed support groups for characters we'd hate to see die (I recall groups for Lockhart, Black, Lupin, Percy, and there might be others). However, I don't recall seeing any discussion of characters we would like to have die in OoP. (Yes, this sounds a little morbid, but it isn't really.) In other words, what important HP character would die if you were writing OoP, and why? If it is a character you find a bit annoying and would like to eliminate for that reason, fine. If there is a character whose death you think would be especially compelling and make OoP memorable, great. If there is a character whose death would allow other characters to change or grow in an interesting way, super. Are there any theories out there about which death would really "enhance" OoP? Laura From justanopinion2001me at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 15:06:34 2001 From: justanopinion2001me at yahoo.com (justanopinion2001me at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:06:34 -0000 Subject: How did HP4GU affect your first reading of GoF? Message-ID: <9qpfhq+acsd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27914 *delurking to do two posts in one day -- a record!* I read the first four books before I knew that HP4GU and the Lexicon even existed. I enjoyed them, and I was taken by surprise by every plot twist in GoF. Now, I'm a L.O.O.N. in training and waiting for OoP. I wonder if my full body immersion in HP details is going to affect my enjoyment of OoP (although I guess it is far too late to do anything about it). I gather this list started between PoA and GoF (True?). For those of you who had read the first three books and participated on this list or read the Lexicon before GoF was published, I am wondering if your HP immersion affected your enjoyment of GoF. If so, how? Laura From joym999 at aol.com Fri Oct 19 15:25:53 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:25:53 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #16 results Message-ID: <9qpgm1+a7qd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27915 Here are the results of this week's contest, in which you were asked to determine the 12 uses of dragon's blood. There seems to be a general consensus that dragon's blood is aphrodisiacal (if that's a word), has cleansing properties, is spicy, and can be used to dye things red. Useful stuff, no? Thanks very much to Nory and Kelly for their suggestions, to Meg Rose, Elena, Rena and Jamieson for their lists, and especially to CMC for the great "12 Use of Dragon's Blood" filk. Stay tuned for the next contest. Here's the results: ********************************************************************** The seventh use of dragon's blood - easy detector for unlicensed Animagi Nory (NKarras at home.com) ********************************************************************** In the Mirror of Erised chapter of SS, Dumbledore told Harry he didn't need a cloak to become invisible so I believe he uses dragon's blood. Kelly the Yarn Junkie ********************************************************************** The Twelve Magic Uses (To the tune of The Twelve Days of Christmas) THE SCENE: The Headmaster's office. Enter ALBUS DUMBLEDORE DUMBLEDORE Here's the twelve magic uses of blood from dragon veins: Cure hoarseness in centaurs Give hickeys to dementors Grow hair on bald ones Clean dirty cauldrons Anti-Nundu potions Calm troll emotions Boost Put-Outer output Brew lemon drops Mend worn-out socks Freeze bumblebees Talk with merfolk And there's one more I won't now explain Caius Marcius (coriolan at worldnet.att.net) ********************************************************************** #1 - A useful substitute for cooking oil in witch households. #2 - A magical antifreeze for potions. #3 - Vital ingredient in potions for growing extra heads. #4 - Can be used as hair gel/dye for that oh-so-natural red color! #5 - Lawn fertilizer. #6 - When ingested by humans, it leads them to believe they are drop- dead gorgeous and is a good antidepressant. #7 - Viagra substitute for magic folk. #8 - Great substitute for spicy hot sauce in Mexican restaurants. (Remember - dragons breath fire!) #9 - Insect repellant. #10 - Good substitute for mortar and/or grout. #11 - When frozen, makes good ice pops for young witches and wizards! #12 - Breath freshener spray! Meg Rose (megrose_13 at yahoo.com) ********************************************************************* The twelve uses of dragon blood 1. Whenever House-Elves feel a little tired, a cup of dragon blood can instill new enthusiasm 2. Fundamental ingredient of love potions (known aphrodisiac...) 3. Basic ingredient of Pepperup Potion against cold 4. It potentiates the wands with a dragon heartstring core 5. It can cure skin burns 6. In moderate amounts it gives spiciness to foods 7. It is at the basis of inks for very magic books 8. It is used to give the Quaffle its red colour 9. It is used to treat dragon hide gloves and make them heat resistant 10. It can be used as fertiliser for mandrakes, potentiating Mandrake Draught made with them 11. Ingredient for blood-flavoured lollipops 12. If given to a phoenix it can delay the day of burning Elena (maestrie at libero.it) ********************************************************* 12. rub on tooth, and cavities will be gone, 11. bathe in it and your skin will become an armor for 13 hours 10. dilute and rub over joints to relief arthritis pain 9. mix into your enemy's poisoned drink to mask the taste of poison 8. dip the tip of a spear in it and the spear will be twice as sharp and penetrate bone. 7. oven cleaner 6. keeps leeches healthy 5. feed to your guard dog for added protection 4. enhances various potions 3. cures baldness 2. great for weight loss 1. Aphrodisiac Rena (r_deutsch at msn.com) ********************************************************************** 1-Ingredient used in love potions 2-Ingredient used in potions for vitality 3-Can be used to decrease signs of aging. 4-Can be used to consecrate space (such as a church, etc) 5-Can be used as an alternative to Kerosene 6-Can be used as an alternative to gasoline 7-Can replace whale blubber in most cosmetics 8-Can clean out most clogged drains 9-Can be used to clean ovens 10-Can be used as an alternative to floor wax 11-Can be used in hair dyes and hennas, for that Really Red look 12-place one drop of it on an evil doers tongue, and they cease doing evil. Jamieson (j.wolf at sympatico.ca) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 19 15:50:37 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:50:37 -0000 Subject: Who SHOULD Die in OoP? In-Reply-To: <9qpf7u+10ldg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qpi4d+a5s9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27916 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001me at y... wrote: > We've talked a lot about which characters we predict will die in > OoP. In other words, what important HP character would die > if you were writing OoP, and why? If it is a character you find a > bit annoying and would like to eliminate for that reason, fine. If > there is a character whose death you think would be especially > compelling and make OoP memorable, great. If there is a character > whose death would allow other characters to change or grow in an > interesting way, super. > > Are there any theories out there about which death would > really "enhance" OoP? At first, I thought this question would be easy for me. I figured I'd just say Hagrid, because as I've said before, he and his pink umbrella may have outlived their usefulness. But then again, Hagrid's death wouldn't have any emotional impact for me. If Hagrid's death makes me say "Thank goodness!" instead of "Oh, no!", then maybe Hagrid wouldn't be the best choice. So what character would I be willing to sacrifice to move the story along and open up new vistas for the other characters? I could say Lupin because it would be so tragic, but Harry's life wouldn't change a whole lot if Lupin died. After all, Lupin wasn't even in GoF, and Harry did just fine. The relationships among the remaining characters might not change at all following Lupin's demise. Maybe that means I'd have to recommend Sirius as the most meaningful potential death (although I'd really miss him). It's hard to say that, though, because I haven't had nearly enough of Sirius yet. He has had only a few short scenes and he stars in Padfoot returns, so it would be a shame to dispatch him before he really gets to be pivotal in a future book. So after all that rambling, I guess I'd have to say Sirius (but not until the last 50 pages of OoP). Cindy (wondering if she can also kill Lockhart, just for fun) From joym999 at aol.com Fri Oct 19 15:59:31 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:59:31 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #17 Message-ID: <9qpil3+pvvt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27917 For this week's contest, you are being asked to help the moderators with a vexing little dilemma. As you know, and are perhaps confused by, HP4GU has a plethora of files for your amusement and edification: the Very Frequently Asked Questions (VFAQs), the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs), the Netiquette file, the list of abbreviations, etc., etc., etc. All of which you've read, right? The most fascinating of these files, as all good HP4GU members know, is what is currently called the FAQ file, which is a very long collection of essays, located at the Harry Potter Lexicon site run by list-member and L.O.O.N. spiritual leader Steve Vander Ark. It is highly recommended that, if you are not familiar with these wonderful FAQ files, that you wander over to http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ and spend some time browsing. Now, we all know that FAQ stands for "Frequently Asked Questions." However, these files have evolved into something much more than just questions about HP that are asked a lot. Plus, people tend to confuse "VFAQ" with "FAQ." So, it has been decided that we need to rename the FAQ files. This is where YOU come in -- what do YOU think these files should be called? Here are some, mostly lame, suggestions: - The Pensieve (or The HP4GU Pensieve) - The Very Large File Full of Harry Potter Speculation from HP4GU - The Official League Of Obsessed Nitpickers' Guide to Harry Potter - Substantive Topical Essays - Frequently Discussed Topics Do you like any of these titles? If so, why? Do you have a better suggestion for what we should rename the FAQs? (Please tell me that someone does.) Please let me know what you think, by email to HP4GUCon at aol.com or to the above address (save your message and resend it if you don't receive an acknowledgment from me.) If you come up with a new name that all of our esteemed Moderators like, a plaque with your name on it will be installed in the entrance to the Renamed FAQ Gallery, which will of course continue to be located at the world-famous Harry Potter Lexicon facility, which itself is housed in a large castle at an undisclosed and unplottable site near Roswell, New Mexico. (We'd let you visit, but we'd have to perform a memory charm on you afterwards, but rest assured that the plaque will be there.) ?Joywitch From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 16:05:53 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:05:53 -0000 Subject: The significance of first names in HP books. In-Reply-To: <9qp5qu+i9sq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qpj11+dlh3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27918 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., b.jebenstreit at b... wrote: > My favourite name game is Lily and Petunia. A friend of mine (who is > more into botany than I) pointed out to me that the lily and the > petunia are in the same biological family - whose name translates as > "Nightshadow" plants. And, get this - they are the only ones in that > family that are relatively harmless. All other plants in this family > are highly poisonous! The petunia is not very special or beatiful if > you compare it to the lily - which is also true for the sisters. But your friend is wrong, but close. Nightshades and petunias are solanaceous plants [family Solanaceae], which includes the nightshades, tobacco, ground cherry, tomato, eggplant, red pepper, etc. Not all nightshades are poisonous. Lilies are in the family Liliaceae, which includes onions, garlics, lilies, and numerous other plants. ....Craig From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Oct 19 17:01:39 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:01:39 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5) In-Reply-To: <9qpeka+6gki@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qpm9j+nbmd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27919 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > > So why would Voldemort be reluctant to kill Lily? Even He knows murder is wrong. It is distasteful, and wasteful. It eliminates wizards who would otherwise be available to worship or fear him. Thus in Harry's dream in GoF recounting the death of the Riddle House caretaker, Voldemort tells Wormtail, "one more murder" presumably referring to Barty Crouch Sr. He doesn't get a particular thrill out of it, it just doesn't bother him enough to not commit the crime when he deems it necessary. 4FR From fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph Fri Oct 19 17:30:46 2001 From: fuelchic at edsamail.com.ph (Reese) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:30:46 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who SHOULD Die in OoP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27920 ***** *Waves her hand frantically* Ooh..I have something to say about this topic. Actually, when I read this post I thought of a previous post that I've read here about a certain Pope Cornelius and Pope Lucius. Right after Pope Cornelius died, the next pope who succeeded him was Pope Lucius. I'm not sure about the details of his death, but anyway. Coincidence? I've been wondering about it ever since. Is this another of JKR's hints about what will happen in the future books? We can only guess... I believe and I suspect in OOP (in my humblest opinion) that Cornelius Fudge *should* and would die. Why? Because think about it, we know Fudge to be a powerful and influential person. He is not the Minister of Magic for nothing. In his hands, he has the power to execute laws and even control the so called media in the Wizarding world and others. I'm not sure though if he is respected in the wizarding community. For me, he is neither one of the good guys or the bad guys.I believe that his death would mark a major change in the series. Read my explanation below. Now, here we have Lucius Malfoy, also a very powerful person, rich and wealthy, who can possibly get away with almost anything because of it. Now imagine what the death of Cornelius Fudge would bring about. Chaos. Disorder. I believe that with the death of Fudge and with all the chaos around, Lucius would gain every opportunity he has to rise to that power, he may even become the next Minister of Magic himself. I could not even imagine how terrible it would be if a DeathEater ruled. I pity the muggle borns. This would be a perfect opportunity for Voldemort to extend his reign indirectly, which would even become more of an obstacle to Dumbledore and co. This would cause a great shift indeed in the book/s to come, making it darker. (did not JKR say that the books are going to get darker?) This could start a new age of terror. Of course, this is just my theory :> If I were the writer (I wish), I would want my readers to actually get the "feel" of Voldemort's terror and darkness to appreciate and understand fully what the protagonists must go through to fight and win the war in the end. What better way to do it then killing Cornelius Fudge? I have no idea if his death will actually *enhance* Book 5, but it would sure scare a lot of people. Actually, I'm hoping I'm wrong about this. Lucius is a meanie to begin with. Reese House of Gryffindor 13 inches cedar dragonheartstring __________________________________ www.edsamail.com From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 17:21:42 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:21:42 -0400 Subject: PS/SS Chapter 07 Summary - The Sorting Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27921 'Lo all! Sorry I'm late with this summary. I've noticed that the Chapter 06 one didn't garner very many replies. I'm not too surprised at this, as we've discussed these books forwards, backwards, up, down, inside-out, tilted, diagonal, and inverted. Besides, the movie is coming up! I just hope that people read the summaries and questions before deleting the message! ---------------------------------- The door opens and we meet a stern witch with black hair and emerald-green robes: Professor McGonagall. Hagrid drops them off and they follow her into the huge entrance hall of Hogwarts. Harry hears what must be the other students in the school to the right and Professor McGonagall ushers all the first years into a small chamber off the hall. Professor McGonagall welcomes them all to Hogwarts. She briefly explains the significance of the Sorting Ceremony and the four houses. She then leaves to smarten up while they are waiting. Harry asks Ron how they sort the students into houses and Ron replies that it is a type of test. Harry immediately gets nervous since he doesnt think he knows any magic. It doesnt help that Hermione has begun to whisper about all the spells she already knows and speculates which shell need. Suddenly, someone screams. About twenty ghosts enter the small room and seem to ignore the first years. However, the Fat Friar notices the students and asks if they are to be sorted and several students nod. Professor McGonagall returns, asks them to form a line, and follow her. Harry gets behind a sandy-haired boy with Ron behind him. They enter the Great Hall. It is a huge room lit by thousands of floating candles. There are four long tables laid with golden plates where the rest of the students were sitting. At the head of the hall is the Professors table. Professor McGonagall leads them before the Professors table and halts. Harry looks up to see the enchanted ceiling which he learns (from Hermione) has been bewitched to look like the sky. Professor McGonagall brings out a four-legged stool and an old wizards hat. After a moment, it twitches and then sings the Sorting Hat Song. The Song explains the four founders and their houses. After it finishes, everyone claps. Ron is relieved but Harry is worried that he doesnt have any of the qualities that the Hat spoke of. Professor McGonagall begins to call the first year students names and each student comes forward to try on the Hat. After the Hat shouts the house the student belongs to, that particular table cheers for that particular person. Harry notices that the Slytherins look unpleasant and that the Hat takes different amounts of time to sort each person. While Hermione is sorted into Gryffindor, Harry begins to worry that the Hat wont sort him at all and hell have to go back on the Hogwarts Express. Neville is sorted into Gryffindor and Draco into Slytherin. Finally, Harrys name is called. The entire hall whispers in wonder as he steps forward and pulls on the Hat. The Hat muses on where to put Harry and he begs it not to put him in Slytherin. The Hat obliges and sticks him in Gryffindor. He gets the loudest cheer as he goes to join the Gryffindor table. Ron is sorted into Gryffindor. The sorting ends and Dumbledore stands up and welcomes all the students, new and old. He ends with the strange phrase Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! and all five tables fill with food. Harry begins to eat and is address by Sir Nicholas de Mimsy Porpington (a.k.a. Nearly Headless Nick), who wishes he could still eat. Nick demonstrates why he has his nickname, which he clearly doesnt like. Nick also points out the Bloody Baron, Slytherins resident ghost. Dinner was finished and dessert appears. The Gryffindor first years begin to talk about their families and bloodlines. Seamus says that hes half Muggle, half wizard, Neville tells the story of how his family found out that he was indeed a wizard and wasnt a Squib. Harry starts feeling content and looks to the Professors table. Suddenly, a hook-nosed teacher stared straight at Harry and he feels a sharp pain in his forehead. He asks Percy which teacher is talking to Quirrell and Percy identifies him as the infamous Professor Snape. When the desserts disappear, Dumbledore stands up and gives them the beginning-of-year speech. He notes that the Forbidden Forest iswellforbidden, that magic shouldnt be used in the corridors between classes, Quidditch trials will be held the second week of term, and that the third-floor corridor on the right hand side is out of bounds to everyone who does not wish to die a very painful death. He then leads everyone in singing the school song, which is sung to everyones personal favorite tune. Afterwards, Percy leads the Gryffindor first years up to the Gryffindor tower. On the way, they meet Peeves. Percy warns the first years to watch out for him and that the Bloody Baron is the only one who can control him. They enter the Gryffindor common room (cozy, round, full of squashy armchairs). The Gryffindor first year boys are directed to their dormitory, which is situated at the top of a spiral staircase. Tired, all the boys pull on their pajamas and fall asleep almost immediately. During Harrys sleep, he has a very odd dream in which he wears Quirrells turban, is told to transfer to Slytherin house, and is laughed at by Malfoy who turns into Snape. The dream ends with a flash of green light and Harry wakes up. He immediately rolls over, goes back to sleep, and forgets the dream. --------------------------------- For your enjoyment, here is a quintet of lame-o questions for you to either answer or make fun of, whichever you prefer! As always, if you have other burning questions about the chapter, please share! Questions: 1) Do you find it odd that the first years arent given any explanation of the four houses except for a quick song sung by the Sorting Hat? Do you think it matters that the students (particularly ones from Muggle families) have nothing to go on except a quick rhyme and rumor from others? 2) Did you wonder, when you first read this chapter, about the Sorting Hats thought to put Harry into Slytherin? Certainly it becomes part of the plot in COS but did you pick up on it when you first read it? 3) Why do you think that Harry experienced a sharp pain in his forehead when Snape shoots him a piercing look? 4) If you were to sing the Hogwarts school song (and whos to say you havent already!), what tune would you sing it to? 5) I know it has been discussed before, but do you think the dream that Harry has at the end of this chapter holds any significance? Or is it just a silly, random dream? Could it be foreshadowing? Ex: Draco turns into Snape, implying that Draco could become a spy for Dumbledores side? ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Do you think you can cope? You figured me out - I'm lost and I'm hopeless Bleeding and broken - though I've never spoken I come undone - in this mad season" - Matchbox 20, "Mad Season" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Fri Oct 19 17:34:07 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:34:07 +0100 Subject: Movie Pics Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011019183148.00a23e50@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27922 I just downloaded some more movie pics from Usenet... Im uploading them to my Yahoo Photos account now! http://photos.yahoo.com/martinjh99 Martin Hooper AIM:martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dorothydch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 17:33:02 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:33:02 -0000 Subject: Who SHOULD Die in OoP? In-Reply-To: <9qpf7u+10ldg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qpo4e+it6r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27923 Dumbledore will "die" just like Voldemort "died" Everything seems to be paralled. If the fifth book is called Order of the Phoenix then my theory makes sense. Why is Dumbledore the only wizard Voldemort is afraid of? Because he is unique in someway? How? Just like the phoenix when dies it is reborn. Therefore, he will always have the ultimate power. Only one phoenix lives at a time. It dies and a new one rises from its ashes. Why is Voldemort obsessed with becoming immortal? Because Dumbledore is... kinda? In the same way that Draco is obsessed with Harry...Draco wants to play Quidditch because Harry does. This can also explain Dumbledore's partnership with Flamel who is over six hundred years old. He has been reborn a few times to keep up with is old friend. I still believe Harry is "put here on earth" by Dumbledore to stop Voldement from achieving immortality. If Dumbledore "dies" there will be no one to guide the rest. All of them will have to choose between what is "right" and what is "easy". This is a lesson he will teach all of them. Just a he has been "teaching" Harry to choose the "right way". In PS Harry categorically announces "I will not go to the Dark Side". At the end of GoF Fudge can not even admit that Voldemort is back. However, as Voldemort died and return we should see the return of Dumbledore. Any comments? Dorothy --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001me at y... wrote: > We've talked a lot about which characters we predict will die in > OoP. We've formed support groups for characters we'd hate to see die > (I recall groups for Lockhart, Black, Lupin, Percy, and there might > be others). > > However, I don't recall seeing any discussion of characters we would > like to have die in OoP. (Yes, this sounds a little morbid, but it > isn't really.) In other words, what important HP character would die > if you were writing OoP, and why? If it is a character you find a > bit annoying and would like to eliminate for that reason, fine. If > there is a character whose death you think would be especially > compelling and make OoP memorable, great. If there is a character > whose death would allow other characters to change or grow in an > interesting way, super. > > Are there any theories out there about which death would > really "enhance" OoP? > > Laura From am025392 at skynet.be Fri Oct 19 17:43:59 2001 From: am025392 at skynet.be (am025392) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:43:59 +0200 Subject: MOVIE:interviews on newsround Message-ID: <000a01c158c5$a2bd4880$2c3c88d9@skynet.be> No: HPFGUIDX 27924 Quite a teaser on BBC's Newsround today : sometime next week they'll broadcast "the very first" tv interviews with Dan, Rupert and Emma. That Emma looks like quite a chatterer... Typecasting?? Kristel From dorothydch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 17:47:39 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:47:39 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Chapter 07 Summary - The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qpovr+crj0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27925 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: I agree with your point five: Someone from the Malfoy house must have sent Dooby to save Harry. Just as Snape hates Harry he would never want him killed. I think Draco doesn't want to go against his father "leanings" and puts up an act in front of his ever present friends Crabbe and Doyle. Another question is why Draco was in the woods in GoF? Was the torture of the Muggle family too much for him and he ran away from what was happening? Voldemort clearly shows us that L. Malfoy's raison d'etre is against Muggles being accepted into Wizarding world, which is why he hates the Weasleys. As on both sides (good vs. bad) there are shades of gray as to how "good" or "bad" a person is. Dorothy > > 'Lo all! Sorry I'm late with this summary. I've noticed that the Chapter 06 > one didn't garner very many replies. I'm not too surprised at this, as we've > discussed these books forwards, backwards, up, down, inside-out, tilted, > diagonal, and inverted. Besides, the movie is coming up! > > I just hope that people read the summaries and questions before deleting the > message! > > ---------------------------------- > > The door opens and we meet a stern witch with black hair and emerald-green > robes: Professor McGonagall. Hagrid drops them off and they follow her into > the huge entrance hall of Hogwarts. Harry hears what must be the other > students in the school to the right and Professor McGonagall ushers all the > first years into a small chamber off the hall. > > Professor McGonagall welcomes them all to Hogwarts. She briefly explains the > significance of the Sorting Ceremony and the four houses. She then leaves to > "smarten up" while they are waiting. > > Harry asks Ron how they sort the students into houses and Ron replies that > it is a type of test. Harry immediately gets nervous since he doesn't think > he knows any magic. It doesn't help that Hermione has begun to whisper about > all the spells she already knows and speculates which she'll need. > > Suddenly, someone screams. About twenty ghosts enter the small room and seem > to ignore the first years. However, the Fat Friar notices the students and > asks if they are to be sorted and several students nod. > > Professor McGonagall returns, asks them to form a line, and follow her. > Harry gets behind a sandy-haired boy with Ron behind him. They enter the > Great Hall. > > It is a huge room lit by thousands of floating candles. There are four long > tables laid with golden plates where the rest of the students were sitting. > At the head of the hall is the Professors' table. Professor McGonagall leads > them before the Professors' table and halts. Harry looks up to see the > enchanted ceiling which he learns (from Hermione) has been bewitched to look > like the sky. > > Professor McGonagall brings out a four-legged stool and an old wizard's hat. > After a moment, it twitches and then sings the Sorting Hat Song. The Song > explains the four founders and their houses. After it finishes, everyone > claps. Ron is relieved but Harry is worried that he doesn't have any of the > qualities that the Hat spoke of. > > Professor McGonagall begins to call the first year students' names and each > student comes forward to try on the Hat. After the Hat shouts the house the > student belongs to, that particular table cheers for that particular person. > Harry notices that the Slytherins look unpleasant and that the Hat takes > different amounts of time to sort each person. While Hermione is sorted into > Gryffindor, Harry begins to worry that the Hat won't sort him at all and > he'll have to go back on the Hogwarts Express. > > Neville is sorted into Gryffindor and Draco into Slytherin. Finally, Harry's > name is called. The entire hall whispers in wonder as he steps forward and > pulls on the Hat. > > The Hat muses on where to put Harry and he begs it not to put him in > Slytherin. The Hat obliges and sticks him in Gryffindor. He gets the loudest > cheer as he goes to join the Gryffindor table. > > Ron is sorted into Gryffindor. The sorting ends and Dumbledore stands up and > welcomes all the students, new and old. He ends with the strange phrase > "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" and all five tables fill with food. > > Harry begins to eat and is address by Sir Nicholas de Mimsy Porpington > (a.k.a. Nearly Headless Nick), who wishes he could still eat. Nick > demonstrates why he has his nickname, which he clearly doesn't like. Nick > also points out the Bloody Baron, Slytherins' resident ghost. > > Dinner was finished and dessert appears. The Gryffindor first years begin to > talk about their families and bloodlines. Seamus says that he's half Muggle, > half wizard, Neville tells the story of how his family found out that he was > indeed a wizard and wasn't a Squib. > > Harry starts feeling content and looks to the Professors' table. Suddenly, a > hook-nosed teacher stared straight at Harry and he feels a sharp pain in his > forehead. He asks Percy which teacher is talking to Quirrell and Percy > identifies him as the infamous Professor Snape. > > When the desserts disappear, Dumbledore stands up and gives them the > beginning-of-year speech. He notes that the Forbidden Forest > is well forbidden, that magic shouldn't be used in the corridors between > classes, Quidditch trials will be held the second week of term, and that the > "third-floor corridor on the right hand side is out of bounds to everyone > who does not wish to die a very painful death". He then leads everyone in > singing the school song, which is sung to everyone's personal favorite tune. > > Afterwards, Percy leads the Gryffindor first years up to the Gryffindor > tower. On the way, they meet Peeves. Percy warns the first years to watch > out for him and that the Bloody Baron is the only one who can control him. > > They enter the Gryffindor common room (cozy, round, full of squashy > armchairs). The Gryffindor first year boys are directed to their dormitory, > which is situated at the top of a spiral staircase. Tired, all the boys pull > on their pajamas and fall asleep almost immediately. > > During Harry's sleep, he has a very odd dream in which he wears Quirrell's > turban, is told to transfer to Slytherin house, and is laughed at by Malfoy > who turns into Snape. The dream ends with a flash of green light and Harry > wakes up. He immediately rolls over, goes back to sleep, and forgets the > dream. > > --------------------------------- > > For your enjoyment, here is a quintet of lame-o questions for you to either > answer or make fun of, whichever you prefer! As always, if you have other > burning questions about the chapter, please share! > > Questions: > > 1) Do you find it odd that the first years aren't given any explanation of > the four houses except for a quick song sung by the Sorting Hat? Do you > think it matters that the students (particularly ones from Muggle families) > have nothing to go on except a quick rhyme and rumor from others? > > 2) Did you wonder, when you first read this chapter, about the Sorting Hat's > thought to put Harry into Slytherin? Certainly it becomes part of the plot > in COS but did you pick up on it when you first read it? > > 3) Why do you think that Harry experienced a sharp pain in his forehead when > Snape shoots him a piercing look? > > 4) If you were to sing the Hogwarts school song (and who's to say you > haven't already!), what tune would you sing it to? > > 5) I know it has been discussed before, but do you think the dream that > Harry has at the end of this chapter holds any significance? Or is it just a > silly, random dream? Could it be foreshadowing? Ex: Draco turns into Snape, > implying that Draco could become a spy for Dumbledore's side? > > ~Amber > > ******** > http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com > > "Do you think you can cope? > You figured me out - I'm lost and I'm hopeless > Bleeding and broken - though I've never spoken > I come undone - in this mad season" > - Matchbox 20, "Mad Season" > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 17:52:48 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: <008601c1589f$880ecc00$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <20011019175248.88305.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27926 --- Lucy Austin wrote: > The thing that really gets me, is WHY does > Crouch/Moody teach Harry how to throw off the > Imperious Curse? He already knows Harry is very > unusual, and plans to give him to Voldemort to kill, > so why on earth does he give him all that extra > practice in that class to give Harry another weapon > to use??? > > Lucy, very confused on this > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cindy C. > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 8:58 PM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The > Imperious Curse > > > Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > I could be wrong but I get the impression > that > > being able to throw the Imperious Curse off in > > minutes, as Harry does, is highly unusual. > Judging > > from the cases of Crouch Jr. and Sr. it would > seem > > most wizards have to build up resistance over a > period > > of time. > > Krum of course never had a chance to do so, > (the > > poor boy probably feels wretched about attacking > > Cedric, especially as he can never now apologize > to > > him). > > I believe Crouch Jr. kept Moody unconscious > for > > the most part specifically in order to keep him > from > > working up the necessary resistance to break the > > curse. > > > > I agree, and I also wonder if resisting the > Imperius curse is easier > if you are standing there aware that it is coming. > On each occasion > that Harry threw it off, he had some inkling that > it might be > coming. Even Voldemort points his wand and says > "Answer Me. > Imperio" or some such. I imagine Krum had no clue > that the curse was > coming. Moody was outside the maze, firing curses > through the hedge. > > Anyway, I also think you're correct that Crouch > Jr. kept Moody > unconscious so he wouldn't resist the curse. It > makes you wonder why > Wormtail/Voldemort didn't think of this. Unless > Wormtail was > supposed to Stun Crouch Sr. and just "forgot." > > > Cindy > Cindy > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of > Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we > are united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for > details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From dorothydch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 17:52:39 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:52:39 -0000 Subject: Where is the Gray Lady in PS? Message-ID: <9qpp97+c19f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27927 I have read it twice and I still can't find her. Can some tell me where she is. I see that is will be in the movie. Thanks, Dorothy From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 18:02:58 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: <008601c1589f$880ecc00$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <20011019180258.92295.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27928 what i amd wondering in concern to the whole ordeal is not only why you young Mr. Crouch gave the practice to Harry but also why is it that he didn't let he-who-must-not-be-named know of the threat? I mean if harry can send owls to communicate with Sirius (i.e. someone who has every Dementor in Azkaban just itching to give him a nice wet one) then why cant our dear old teacher go up to the school owlery after hours and send a letter off to the dark lord to let him know of an unusual resistance that Potter has to the imperius curse and that he had to truly fight potter's mind not once but four or five times. well.. you kno let him know that his will was not weakening but infact getting stronger the more you backed him into a corner? Ah well... Any justified thoughts as to who it is talking in the back of harry's mind (I mean other than the odvious James or Lily Potter) I am thinking Dumbledore's Pheonix. But that is just my hunch I mean not only is the feather from his tale in his wand but i mean he has shown some genuine affection for harry and has shared his tears with him... it is possible no? yours in lunacy Scott Chatten --- Lucy Austin wrote: > The thing that really gets me, is WHY does > Crouch/Moody teach Harry how to throw off the > Imperious Curse? He already knows Harry is very > unusual, and plans to give him to Voldemort to kill, > so why on earth does he give him all that extra > practice in that class to give Harry another weapon > to use??? > > Lucy, very confused on this > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cindy C. > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 8:58 PM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The > Imperious Curse > > > Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > I could be wrong but I get the impression > that > > being able to throw the Imperious Curse off in > > minutes, as Harry does, is highly unusual. > Judging > > from the cases of Crouch Jr. and Sr. it would > seem > > most wizards have to build up resistance over a > period > > of time. > > Krum of course never had a chance to do so, > (the > > poor boy probably feels wretched about attacking > > Cedric, especially as he can never now apologize > to > > him). > > I believe Crouch Jr. kept Moody unconscious > for > > the most part specifically in order to keep him > from > > working up the necessary resistance to break the > > curse. > > > > I agree, and I also wonder if resisting the > Imperius curse is easier > if you are standing there aware that it is coming. > On each occasion > that Harry threw it off, he had some inkling that > it might be > coming. Even Voldemort points his wand and says > "Answer Me. > Imperio" or some such. I imagine Krum had no clue > that the curse was > coming. Moody was outside the maze, firing curses > through the hedge. > > Anyway, I also think you're correct that Crouch > Jr. kept Moody > unconscious so he wouldn't resist the curse. It > makes you wonder why > Wormtail/Voldemort didn't think of this. Unless > Wormtail was > supposed to Stun Crouch Sr. and just "forgot." > > > Cindy > Cindy > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of > Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we > are united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for > details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Oct 19 18:04:12 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:04:12 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Don't forget our Announcements List Message-ID: <3BD06B1C.40301@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27929 Hi -- Over the past several days, I've noticed several "announcements" type messages appearing on the main list. Here's a refresher course in the types of things that *must* be sent to Announcements (and are not to be sent to the main group): ** Announcements of fanfic chapters (one plug per chapter per author) ** New Merchandise ** News stories, interviews, Movie news, etc. (links only please for copyright reasons) ** Plug for your fabulous new HP website (or when you've just uploaded something new to an existing website) ** Announcements of chat room sessions ** Fun HP links, like Sorting Hat quizzes, etc. ** JKR sightings or events (upcoming interviews, chats) ** Upcoming articles about HP (book reviews, literary criticism, etc.) The Announcements List can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements Okay, you've been warned! e-Howlers will be sent out for flagrant violators. As always, feel free to email the Moderators at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com if you have any questions. Penny The Magical Mod Squad From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Oct 19 17:55:51 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:55:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My hard and fast prediction for HP5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27930 > Real-To: "Lucy Austin" > > I think it's possible Draco won't be a prefect - surely > Dumbledore has the final say, and he knows fine well that the > Malfoys are Death Eaters, and won't want to give Draco that > power. But in Cos, Dumbledore says that "it is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Further, Dumbledore has given Snape a second chance, even though Snape had been a Death Eater. Do you really think that Dumbledore is someone who is likely to be so judgemental against a teenager just because of who is father is, that he's willing to write him off to evil at age 14/15? > Then Harry won't be one either because of his safety > and rule breaking, but perhaps Hermione and Ron will be. Because Ron is somehow less prone to rulebreaking? That's not exactly canon, but it's not an uncommon conjecture among some. > Hermione because of being so clever, and Ron must be clever > to get through a year of school with a broken wand, and also > because I like him! Then Ron & Hermione will spend extra time > together, notice each other, and that will eventually leave > Harry to notice poor old Ginny - yippee, that's how I want > the 4 of them to end up!! > Lucy, who'd like to know if there are any fanfics where Harry > ends up with Ginny and Ron with Hermione? Yes. Go to Sugarquill.com. Have fun! From dorothydch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 18:37:27 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:37:27 -0000 Subject: Background Characters coming to the Foreground? In-Reply-To: <9qkf22+m3jb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qprt7+62oa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27931 Few of the backgrounders I think will come to the forefront are: Neville: as we see he has steadliy gaining "strength" in each book. He can't have such a powerful grandmother for nothing. Petunia: the "dark looks" she gives Vernon regarding magic. When Harry pretends to curse Dudley, Petunia "knows" that it was not real but she throws the frying pan anyway. I think Petunia will inherit her magical tendancies as an adult. House-elves: We still don't know about the "strong" magic. Maybe they will all be released in order to aid in the fight against evil. Dumbledore's Angels: Cho, Angelina and Fleur they are very brave The Creevey's: there are two of them now. They're kinda creepy Hmmmm I'll have to think of more Dorothy --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kidzero7 at h... wrote: > One of the things I love about the Harry Potter series is the > abundance of minor and 'background' characters roaming the halls of > Hogwarts. When I reread the series, I always find myself imagining > the going-ons of these characters. > > My question is this: > > Has JK hinted at in her books or in the press that some of these > background characters will come to the foreground? > > I'm thinking that some of the "mudbloods" will play a bigger part if > JK decides to really make the "blood issue" a focus of the series or > one of her books. > > Characters I'd personally like to learn more about are Dean Thomas, > Lee Jordan, Cho Chang, Padma and Parvati Patil, and Justin Finch- > Fletchley. > > Also, though it's not canon by any stretch... The Harry Potter > Trading Card game requires that you choose a Character card before > play. They have characters you'd expect to be able to play like > Harry, Ron, Hermione, Snape, Flitwick, etc, but two minor characters > that are playable are Dean Thomas and Hannah Abbott. It makes me > wonder if JK had some input on what characters should be used and > that possibly these 2 characters will play bigger roles by the end of > the series. > > What do you think? From dorothydch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 18:53:59 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:53:59 -0000 Subject: Dudley vs Draco Message-ID: <9qpss7+c8m4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27932 This is the first parallel we see. Does Dudley hate Harry because his father does? We see clearly that prejudice is learned at home. Draco and Dudley's prejudices are fostered and perpetuated by their parents. Dursley gives his son anything he wants and makes sure that Harry always has less. Malfoy, buys the whole team new brooms so that his son can be "better" than Harry. The sins of the fathers in these two cases squarely falls upons their sons. Again, we will have to see if these sons make the "right" decisions for themselves. Dorothy From SALeathem at aol.com Fri Oct 19 19:01:18 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:01:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who SHOULD Die in OoP? Message-ID: <164.295640c.2901d27e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27933 In a message dated 19/10/2001 18:39:16 GMT Daylight Time, dorothydch at yahoo.com writes: << Dumbledore will "die" just like Voldemort "died" Everything seems to be paralled. >> Funny you should say that, cos when GoF was published last year, I'm *sure* I heard JKR say that Dumbledore dies in the next book (in one of the many CBBC TV appearances she made at the time). There were hints all over the end of GoF of his impending fate as well - plenty of detail being given of how Harry thinks he (Dumbledore) is looking so old and weary, and not his usual self in some way. I actually thought JKR had said that Dumbledore dies at the end of GoF but obviously, that didn't happen. So she must have meant Book 5. << If the fifth book is called Order of the Phoenix then my theory makes sense. Why is Dumbledore the only wizard Voldemort is afraid of? Because he is unique in someway? >> I think that Dumbledore is the only Wizard Voldemort really fears because Dumbledore has been proven to have the power to defeat dark wizards, he's just seemingly chosen not to in recent years for some reason (probably Harry) - written on his card that came with the chocolate frog - ...particularly famous for his defeat of the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945... << How? Just like the phoenix when dies it is reborn. Therefore, he will always have the ultimate power. Only one phoenix lives at a time. It dies and a new one rises from its ashes. Why is Voldemort obsessed with becoming immortal? Because Dumbledore is... kinda? In the same way that Draco is obsessed with Harry...Draco wants to play Quidditch because Harry does. >> As for Draco's obsession with Harry, isn't it obvious? Lucius is a Death Eater, he was there in the circle with Voldemort at the end of GoF, Draco is Lucius' son. Harry is the boy that originally stripped Lucius' "master" of power. Draco's original wish to be friends with Harry was because he knew the history, and he knows how much of a coup that would be for the Dark side to have Harry on their side. He could have made life very easy for his father & Voldemort by gaining Harry's trust, but we know that all fell through. Draco is so obviously going to be a Death Eater like his father (he was in the woods - Quidditch world cup - cos being a death eater isn't exaclty something you want to scream from the roof tops while your leader isn't fully back in power, and you risk being caught and sent to Azkhaban. Makes sense that if Lucius was, and it's pretty likely he was - one of the Death Eaters torturing the muggles at the Quidditch World Cup, he would make sure that it looked like he wasn't really there at all, how? By making sure other members of his family are seen to be doing what everyone else is doing, in that case - running and hiding in the woods) << This can also explain Dumbledore's partnership with Flamel who is over six hundred years old. He has been reborn a few times to keep up with is old friend. >> I'd never noticed that before, but good point. There's no mention of when Dumbledore and Flamel created the stone, but obviously if Flamel was over 600 yeas old, then well... Dumbledores gotta be hiding some pretty special power. Bloody obvious when you think about it really eh? :o) << I still believe Harry is "put here on earth" by Dumbledore to stop Voldement from achieving immortality. If Dumbledore "dies" there will be no one to guide the rest. All of them will have to choose between what is "right" and what is "easy". This is a lesson he will teach all of them. Just a he has been "teaching" Harry to choose the "right way". In PS Harry categorically announces "I will not go to the Dark Side". At the end of GoF Fudge can not even admit that Voldemort is back. However, as Voldemort died and return we should see the return of Dumbledore. >> But Voldemort didn't die. He was just stripped of his power and left as a wrecked, barely human form. The Curse didn't kill him. Once you're dead, you're dead. No form of magic can resurrect the dead, otherwise Dumbledore and others would have just set about resurrecting Lily & James and everyone else Voldemort killed, and their future task would be a lot easier. Plus, there'd be no reason to fear death, because you can just get one of your mates to resurrect you straight away. That's all I can think of now. Sara From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 19 19:13:06 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:13:06 -0000 Subject: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: <20011019180258.92295.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qpu02+8mjr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27934 Scott wrote: > what i amd wondering in concern to the whole ordeal is > not only why you young Mr. Crouch gave the practice to > Harry but also why is it that he didn't let > he-who-must-not-be-named know of the threat? Lucy wrote:> > > The thing that really gets me, is WHY does > > Crouch/Moody teach Harry how to throw off the > > Imperious Curse? He already knows Harry is very > > unusual, and plans to give him to Voldemort to kill, > > so why on earth does he give him all that extra > > practice in that class to give Harry another weapon > > to use??? > > Hi Scott and Lucy, At the very real risk that this has been discussed before, I had a thought. I have always thought the reason Crouch/Moody teaches Harry how to resist the Imperio curse is because Dumbledore asked him to, or he thinks he needs to do it to stay "in character." I also figured that Crouch/Moody wouldn't bother to tell Voldemort because Imperio isn't a crucial component of Voldemort's plan to kill Harry. But how about this theory instead? Maybe the Imperio Curse is only as strong as the wizard casting it. If so, then Crouch/Moody wouldn't need to worry about teaching Harry how to throw it off or worry about telling Voldemort. Voldemort is much more powerful than Crouch/Moody, so even if Harry can resist Crouch/Moody's Imperio, Harry won't necessarily stand a chance of resisting Voldemort's Imperio. Should the day ever come (as it did) that Voldemort would need to put Harry under the Imperio Curse, then the training Harry received from Crouch/Moody still wouldn't be a threat to Voldemort. So there'd be no reason for Crouch/Moody even to tell Voldemort about the training, as it is unimportant. There is a teaspoon of canon to support this idea that the Imperio curse is only as strong as the wizard casting it. Presumably, Wormtail places Crouch Sr. under the Imperius Curse, and Crouch Sr. is able to throw it off, and we know Wormtail is a "talentless thing" (according to Sirius). Also, we are told by Karkarov that Mulciber "specializes" in the Imperius Curse, which suggests that there is some benefit from having your Imperius specialist place the curse on someone rather than having someone less skilled or powerful do it. Also, consider how long it takes various wizards to cast off the Imperius curse cast by various wizards. Crouch Sr. (powerful wizard) is able to cast off Wormtail's (talentless wizard) Imperius Curse in a few months. Crouch Jr. (competent wizard) takes years to throw off Crouch Sr.'s (powerful wizard) Imperius curse. Crouch Jr. (competent wizard) doesn't take chances and rely only on the Imperius curse to control the real Moody (powerful wizard); he stuns him too. Of course, if this theory holds, then it is proof positive that Harry is stronger than Voldemort, because he threw off Voldemort's Imperius curse in seconds. Does this theory add up? Cindy (as Bagman would say, "this should shorten the odds on Mr. Potter") From SALeathem at aol.com Fri Oct 19 19:15:20 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:15:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Background Characters coming to the Foreground? Message-ID: <144.34cbbeb.2901d5c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27935 In a message dated 19/10/2001 19:45:02 GMT Daylight Time, dorothydch at yahoo.com writes: << Neville: as we see he has steadliy gaining "strength" in each book. He can't have such a powerful grandmother for nothing. Yup, think so too. In GoF we learned that Neville's parents were victims of Voldemort too, and not very long before Harry's own fell to him. I think Neville was entwined in a similar bond to Voldemort & possibly some of his supporters and Harry was, after him reacting so violently in the DADA lesson to the Cruciatus (sp?) Curse. I also reckon he's probably going to be become one of the more central hero's. The Sorting hat identified his courage, and he has shown it in standing up to people, even when sometimes he knows he's going to get pumelled. I think it's probably going to be in an avenging role for his parents as well. 4th member for the trio maybe? << Petunia: the "dark looks" she gives Vernon regarding magic. When Harry pretends to curse Dudley, Petunia "knows" that it was not real but she throws the frying pan anyway. I think Petunia will inherit her magical tendancies as an adult. >> There was a rumour somewhere that one Muggle manages to do magic late in life as a last resort. Petunia? Another one for the list - Mrs Figg. A seemingly unimportant muggle character (well, I always thought she was anyway) suddenly turns out to have been Harry's guardian & a witch all along on the good side. Sara From dorothydch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 19:17:03 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:17:03 -0000 Subject: Who SHOULD Die in OoP? In-Reply-To: <164.295640c.2901d27e@aol.com> Message-ID: <9qpu7f+6g3e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27936 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., SALeathem at a... wrote: > In a message dated 19/10/2001 18:39:16 GMT Daylight Time, > dorothydch at y... writes: > Death here is a metaphor(deep huh..)This is why I put it in qoutes. I see the use of parellels with a "rebirth" theme. Voldemort "dies" in PS (yes, I know not really) he is then "reborn" GoF. My prediction if that Dumbledore will "die" as Fawkes dies (hence the phoenix theme here) and will rise again for the ashes "rebirth" Niether one has actually died (real death). However, Dumbledore will have a "natural" (he is a phoenix) rebirth While Voldemort has an "unatural" (is was a potion/spell) "rebirth" And we all know that "It is nice to fool mother nature" I just keep seeing parallels all over the place. Dorothy > << Dumbledore will "die" just like Voldemort "died" > Everything seems to be paralled. >> > > Funny you should say that, cos when GoF was published last year, I'm *sure* I > heard JKR say that Dumbledore dies in the next book (in one of the many CBBC > TV appearances she made at the time). There were hints all over the end of > GoF of his impending fate as well - plenty of detail being given of how Harry > thinks he (Dumbledore) is looking so old and weary, and not his usual self in > some way. I actually thought JKR had said that Dumbledore dies at the end of > GoF but obviously, that didn't happen. So she must have meant Book 5. > > << If the fifth book is called Order of the Phoenix then my theory > makes sense. > Why is Dumbledore the only wizard Voldemort is afraid of? > Because he is unique in someway? >> > > I think that Dumbledore is the only Wizard Voldemort really fears because > Dumbledore has been proven to have the power to defeat dark wizards, he's > just seemingly chosen not to in recent years for some reason (probably Harry) > - written on his card that came with the chocolate frog - > > ...particularly famous for his defeat of the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in > 1945... > > > << How? > Just like the phoenix when dies it is reborn. Therefore, he will > always have the ultimate power. Only one phoenix lives at a time. It > dies and a new one rises from its ashes. > Why is Voldemort obsessed with becoming immortal? > Because Dumbledore is... kinda? In the same way that Draco is > obsessed with Harry...Draco wants to play Quidditch because Harry > does. >> > > As for Draco's obsession with Harry, isn't it obvious? Lucius is a Death > Eater, he was there in the circle with Voldemort at the end of GoF, Draco is > Lucius' son. Harry is the boy that originally stripped Lucius' "master" of > power. Draco's original wish to be friends with Harry was because he knew the > history, and he knows how much of a coup that would be for the Dark side to > have Harry on their side. He could have made life very easy for his father & > Voldemort by gaining Harry's trust, but we know that all fell through. Draco > is so obviously going to be a Death Eater like his father (he was in the > woods - Quidditch world cup - cos being a death eater isn't exaclty something > you want to scream from the roof tops while your leader isn't fully back in > power, and you risk being caught and sent to Azkhaban. Makes sense that if > Lucius was, and it's pretty likely he was - one of the Death Eaters torturing > the muggles at the Quidditch World Cup, he would make sure that it looked > like he wasn't really there at all, how? By making sure other members of his > family are seen to be doing what everyone else is doing, in that case - > running and hiding in the woods) > > << This can also explain Dumbledore's partnership with Flamel who is over > six hundred years old. He has been reborn a few times to keep up with > is old friend. >> > > I'd never noticed that before, but good point. There's no mention of when > Dumbledore and Flamel created the stone, but obviously if Flamel was over 600 > yeas old, then well... Dumbledores gotta be hiding some pretty special power. > Bloody obvious when you think about it really eh? :o) > > << I still believe Harry is "put here on earth" by Dumbledore to stop > Voldement from achieving immortality. > > If Dumbledore "dies" there will be no one to guide the rest. All of > them will have to choose between what is "right" and what is "easy". > > This is a lesson he will teach all of them. Just a he has been > "teaching" Harry to choose the "right way". > > In PS Harry categorically announces "I will not go to the Dark Side". > At the end of GoF Fudge can not even admit that Voldemort is back. > > However, as Voldemort died and return we should see the return of > Dumbledore. >> > > But Voldemort didn't die. He was just stripped of his power and left as a > wrecked, barely human form. The Curse didn't kill him. Once you're dead, > you're dead. No form of magic can resurrect the dead, otherwise Dumbledore > and others would have just set about resurrecting Lily & James and everyone > else Voldemort killed, and their future task would be a lot easier. Plus, > there'd be no reason to fear death, because you can just get one of your > mates to resurrect you straight away. > > That's all I can think of now. > Sara From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 19:23:32 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:23:32 -0000 Subject: Sirius as Padfoot - length of books - JKR and CSL - AD rebirth Message-ID: <9qpujk+h2ja@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27937 Dittany wrote: > Herewith I offer the picture of a dog looking like a cross between > a black Lab and a Rottweiller bouncing all over Hogwarts Castle > hunting a rat whose body is being run by a wizard's brain...remember > that they use open flames for lighting, and that suits of armour make > an incredible racket when they land on stone floors. LOL! In my mental picture, Sirius is a Newfoundland. Even worse. I was thinking of the few minutes when he was in the boys' dorm room only. I don't recommend his bouncing all over the castle either. Tabouli wrote: >I also agree that CSL has other strengths that JKR lacks, the most obvious one >(as someone mentioned) his self-discipline in controlling the length of his >books. I know this isn't what you're saying, Tabouli, but why do people complain about the length of GoF and the rumored length of 7 and (possibly) 5? I say the longer the better, as long as they're all as well-written as GF. Too much of a good thing is wonderful. In terms of CSL's strengths, I was thinking of description (e.g. visual), which JKR does just fine but CSL does superlatively. Dorothy wrote: > This can also explain Dumbledore's partnership with Flamel who is over > six hundred years old. He has been reborn a few times to keep up with > is old friend. However, according to JKR Dumbledore is about 150, which may not be unusual for wizards, who live longer than Muggles. She could be lying, but she seems to be truthful in interviews (if cagey and deliberately misleading). Amy Z ----------------------------------------------------------- But James was silent, his violet eyes glistening behind his muscular spectacles. "Oh, no. He's dreaming about Lily again," Sirius moaned, shaking his perfectly-proportioned head ruefully. "I don't think so, Sirius," Remus whispered, looking very pale and interesting. --Moon and Hyphen, "The Fic That Must Not Be Named" ------------------------------------------------------------ From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Fri Oct 19 19:27:19 2001 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:27:19 -0000 Subject: hermione and Harry-ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qpuqn+108f6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27938 I disagree somewhat with this. To take the calendar-shifts thorugh history first, these have always been made to bring the calendar in line with what is actually going on with regards to seasons and celestial events. I'd rather think that the wizards, with their great interest in astronomy (and astrology for that event) would be ahead of the muggles in keeping their calendar accurate. I do not see the wizards as being rather dynamic in some things. Regarding school-systems, I see Hogwarts as being very integrated into the British system of primary and secondary schools. If Sept. 1st is the break-off date in muggle schools in Britain, and Hogwarts allows muggleborn/muggleraised students, it will be prudent for Hogwarts to adopt the same break-off date. If it has a break-off date that makes Hermione among the youngest in her year, she'd have to miss a year of primary school. I can see muggle parents disagreeing to this. I also fail to see any compelling reasons why Hermione should not be among the oldest in her year. Best regards Christian Stub? --- In HPforGrownups, "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > I was just talking with Ebony about this last night. Clearly, > hogwarts predates the british school system, and while its > possible that hogwarts changed the deadline to mesh with the > British school system, I think its just as likely that they use > deadlines made in ancient times - likely options would be the > solstice or Halloween. I know you're saying Angelina's birthday > is before Halloween, but a few hndred years ago, Britain > "jumped" forward about 15 days when switching calendars- and > the Hogwarts date might be somehow linked to the old "All > Hollows Eve." From alexp at alltel.net Fri Oct 19 19:50:28 2001 From: alexp at alltel.net (alexp at alltel.net) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:50:28 -0000 Subject: Evil Creevies? Message-ID: <9qq064+10dam@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27939 Could the Creevies be evil? Voldies spies? Milkman dad-Or Deatheater Dad? HMM!!;~) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 19 19:50:56 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:50:56 -0000 Subject: length of books In-Reply-To: <9qpujk+h2ja@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qq070+c9qc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27940 Amy wrote:> I know this isn't what you're saying, Tabouli, but why do people > complain about the length of GoF and the rumored length of 7 and > (possibly) 5? I say the longer the better, as long as they're all as > well-written as GF. Too much of a good thing is wonderful. > Hi, Amy! Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with the length of GoF per se. Long and great is better than short and great, I suppose. Although GoF was great, it did get a bit windy in spots in the first half, and it would have been even greater had it not been allowed to bog down in those places. As you pointed out in your summary of the plotlines of PoA (which was awesome, BTW, thanks!), PoA has a LOT going on. But PoA was as tight as a drum and very tightly focused on establishing what needed to be established for everything to work -- nothing more, nothing less. That focus made it a really exciting read. PoA could have been stretched to be as long as GoF, had JKR added more background, more descriptions and more diversions. So as between the 400+ page PoA and the 700+ page GoF, I prefer the former (but just by a little bit), but not merely because it is shorter. So I'd like to see OoP be very, very long (800+ pages would be fine with me), and very, very tight. (If I could only have either long or tight, however, I'd pick tight every time.) That won't be easy, but it is more likely to happen if JKR takes her time, and we sure know she's doing that. Cindy (who wishes her own writing were as lean as PoA) From tillrules at aol.com Fri Oct 19 19:57:06 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:57:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley vs Draco Message-ID: <13.616e5e.2901df92@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27941 In a message dated 10/19/2001 11:56:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dorothydch at yahoo.com writes: << This is the first parallel we see. Does Dudley hate Harry because his father does? We see clearly that prejudice is learned at home. Draco and Dudley's prejudices are fostered and perpetuated by their parents. Dursley gives his son anything he wants and makes sure that Harry always has less. Malfoy, buys the whole team new brooms so that his son can be "better" than Harry. The sins of the fathers in these two cases squarely falls upons their sons. Again, we will have to see if these sons make the "right" decisions for themselves. Dorothy >> I'm not buying that it's the parents fault in either case. At very least, the two boys are responsible for being contemptible little jerks. For example, Dudley is portrayed as a bully, not only of Harry, but other kids with his gang. In PS/SS, Harry refers tohimself as Dudley's gang's favorite target, but when describing Piers, says that he held the arms of people while Dudley hit them, very clearly implying that he did not only bully Harry. So its not only Mr. Dursley's dislike of Harry which causes the bullying, its something in Dudley whih makes him dislike Harry. Draco's the same case. He may have learned a degree of the hate he displays at home, but it is very possible for a child to break from that. I grew up with parents who lean towards racist, but even by my early years realized that racism is wrong and did not continue to look at people that way. If Draco were solely bad because of his father, then he would not be bad outside of his father's view, similar to the child who's well behaved at home, but a terror outside of it. He's out of the house in a place where his father holds very little sway, b/c of Lucius's relationship with Dumbledore, and he does not change. He has the opportunity to learn new things and interact with others in a way that could overcome whatever racism he learned at home. But this is not the case. He goes out of his way to stay the way he is. Draco is very clearly proud of his father and his ability to affect things as a powerful figure and brags about it a number of times. In fact, he contacts his father a number of times in the canon to tell him of events happening in the school so his father can act on them (the blast eared skrewts, for example or Buckbeak). In addition, in a conversation with Harry, which has no way of returning to his father, Draco is elated at the return of Voldemort. This is not a kid who is doing things to impress his father or to forestall his father's wrath. He's simply a bad kid. From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 19 20:00:48 2001 From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:00:48 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Chapter 07 Summary - The Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qq0pg+cff3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27942 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > Questions: > > 1) Do you find it odd that the first years aren't given any explanation of > the four houses except for a quick song sung by the Sorting Hat? Do you > think it matters that the students (particularly ones from Muggle families) > have nothing to go on except a quick rhyme and rumor from others? I would put the question the other way round: does it matter that students from magical families know about the other houses? The sorting hat is supposed to sort you by your character. If like Harry, the choice came to Gryffindar and Slytherin and you had no knowledge about either, would this be better or worse than knowing where you wanted to be? I would say better, because the *sortee* is making a decision that the hat should be making. What about a clear Ravenclaw who wants to be in Gryffindor because of what he's heard? Are there often students who could be in two houses or was Harry an exception? > 2) Did you wonder, when you first read this chapter, about the Sorting Hat's > thought to put Harry into Slytherin? Certainly it becomes part of the plot > in COS but did you pick up on it when you first read it? I thought that Harry would turn out to be ambitious. I still refuse to believe that all Slytherins are nasty and horrible. On a note kind of relating to q1, do students from Muggle families ever get sorted into Slytherin? This would be very unpleasant, since Slytherins are supposed to be "Mudblood haters". > 3) Why do you think that Harry experienced a sharp pain in his forehead when > Snape shoots him a piercing look? I think this is a red herring to make the reader go "ooh, Snape, bad guy". If V is under Quirrel's turban and Snape is looking past Quirrel to Harry, I think Harry would be looking at the back of Quirrel's head. Therefore the pain could be caused by V. I return to lurkville where I have been for the past few months :) Sarah From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 20:04:22 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily and Petunia In-Reply-To: <9qpj11+dlh3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011019200422.81092.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27943 --- rcraigharman at hotmail.com wrote: > Nightshades and petunias are solanaceous plants > [family Solanaceae], > which includes the nightshades, tobacco, ground > cherry, tomato, > eggplant, red pepper, etc. Not all nightshades are > poisonous. > > Lilies are in the family Liliaceae, which includes > onions, garlics, > lilies, and numerous other plants. My God, that's even better! Petunia is allied to poisons, (deadly nightshade and tobacco) while Lily is associated with a powerful protective plant, (garlic). You don't suppose JKR did that on purpose do you? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 20:04:57 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: <9qpu02+8mjr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011019200457.88675.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27944 I have a little bit of a problem with that. Granted that Crouch Jr. Was weaker than his father. He does say something that strikes me. In GOF (the unforgivable curses) page 217 he says after casting the killing curse. "Avada Dedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of mayic behind it --- you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and i doubt i'd get so much as a nosebleed." This says to me gee scott this guy must be pretty powerful to be able to cast an unblockable curse that kills on target. Much less get Viktor Krum (a seventh year from a school which concentrates heavily on the dark arts) to fall to the imperius curse and then cast the cruciatus curse on a fellow student (i firmly believe that krum was trying to fight that hard). Based on this fact i dont think that the imperius curse is something that can just be routinely cast by a wizard of diminished power of any sort. Simply because the battle of minds that the caster has to employ would be no small thing. (although JKR never gives us a look at the imperius curse from the casters point of view) and there for it still stands. Why wouldn't young mr. crouch be just a little more apprehensive about the fact the harry could fight it the very first time it was cast on him. You would think that after his master's downfall that the death eaters and their master would be just a little more cautious about their actions. (and weaknesses) I think the dark lord hasn't exactly done his homework. Scott --- "Cindy C." wrote: > Scott wrote: > > what i amd wondering in concern to the whole > ordeal is > > not only why you young Mr. Crouch gave the > practice to > > Harry but also why is it that he didn't let > > he-who-must-not-be-named know of the threat? > > Lucy wrote:> > > > > The thing that really gets me, is WHY does > > > Crouch/Moody teach Harry how to throw off the > > > Imperious Curse? He already knows Harry is very > > > unusual, and plans to give him to Voldemort to > kill, > > > so why on earth does he give him all that extra > > > practice in that class to give Harry another > weapon > > > to use??? > > > > > Hi Scott and Lucy, > > At the very real risk that this has been discussed > before, I had a > thought. I have always thought the reason > Crouch/Moody teaches Harry > how to resist the Imperio curse is because > Dumbledore asked him to, > or he thinks he needs to do it to stay "in > character." I also > figured that Crouch/Moody wouldn't bother to tell > Voldemort because > Imperio isn't a crucial component of Voldemort's > plan to kill Harry. > > But how about this theory instead? Maybe the > Imperio Curse is only > as strong as the wizard casting it. If so, then > Crouch/Moody > wouldn't need to worry about teaching Harry how to > throw it off or > worry about telling Voldemort. Voldemort is much > more powerful than > Crouch/Moody, so even if Harry can resist > Crouch/Moody's Imperio, > Harry won't necessarily stand a chance of resisting > Voldemort's > Imperio. Should the day ever come (as it did) that > Voldemort would > need to put Harry under the Imperio Curse, then the > training Harry > received from Crouch/Moody still wouldn't be a > threat to Voldemort. > So there'd be no reason for Crouch/Moody even to > tell Voldemort about > the training, as it is unimportant. > > There is a teaspoon of canon to support this idea > that the Imperio > curse is only as strong as the wizard casting it. > Presumably, > Wormtail places Crouch Sr. under the Imperius Curse, > and Crouch Sr. > is able to throw it off, and we know Wormtail is a > "talentless thing" > (according to Sirius). Also, we are told by > Karkarov that > Mulciber "specializes" in the Imperius Curse, which > suggests that > there is some benefit from having your Imperius > specialist place the > curse on someone rather than having someone less > skilled or powerful > do it. > > Also, consider how long it takes various wizards to > cast off the > Imperius curse cast by various wizards. Crouch Sr. > (powerful wizard) > is able to cast off Wormtail's (talentless wizard) > Imperius Curse in > a few months. Crouch Jr. (competent wizard) takes > years to throw off > Crouch Sr.'s (powerful wizard) Imperius curse. > Crouch Jr. (competent > wizard) doesn't take chances and rely only on the > Imperius curse to > control the real Moody (powerful wizard); he stuns > him too. > > Of course, if this theory holds, then it is proof > positive that Harry > is stronger than Voldemort, because he threw off > Voldemort's Imperius > curse in seconds. > > Does this theory add up? > > Cindy (as Bagman would say, "this should shorten the > odds on Mr. > Potter") > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Oct 19 20:16:58 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:16:58 -0000 Subject: That Wacky Prefect Debate Message-ID: <9qq1nq+g5bb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27945 I'm not even near to being caught up with today's postings, but I was reading through yesterday's and I wanted to say this before I forget. We are all wondering who will be a prefect next year, and consensus says that Hermione is a definite. Quite a few people have also nominated Harry and Ron as probabilities. Now, I know I am thinking like the teacher I am, but why would either Harry or Ron be a good candidate for prefecthood? As much as I adore Harry, I don't think he's prefect material. We have a few prefects to judge by (and that's not much), but I believe prefects are chosen by their grades and behavior. There is no evidence that Harry gets above average grades and we all know he has been in trouble and has lost points for his house many times. He is also busy with Quidditch and, not to be ignored, avidly hunted by the biggest and baddest Dark Wizard around. If I was a teacher at Hogwarts I'd recommend Harry not be elected for the position. Aside from all of the things I mentioned, I don't think Harry would even want the job. He is not one to turn in other students or take points from houses. Harry hates the responsibilities his life has given him and hates being the constant focus of everyone's attention; why would he want to be a prefect, too? I feel much the same way about Ron. His grades are probably similar to Harry's and he has also been in his share of trouble. I also don't see Ron as much of a leader. I'm not saying that I think Percy is a great leader, but he had the confidence as a prefect to stand up to students, even from his own house, when they are acting out of line. I cannot see Ron doing that. I'm very curious to see how JKR will handle this. --jenny from ravenclaw *********************** From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 20:21:51 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5) In-Reply-To: <9qpeka+6gki@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011019202151.96106.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27946 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > punkieshazam at y... wrote: > So why would Voldemort be reluctant to kill Lily? I've wondered if it might just be he prefers, on the whole, not to kill witches unless absolutely necessary - possibly out of respect for his mother's memory? > Cindy (who has always been puzzled that Voldemort calls Lily, a grown > woman with a child, "silly girl") When you're fifty something a woman of twenty odd probably does seem like a girl. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 20:22:28 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:22:28 -0000 Subject: The old crowd Message-ID: <9qq224+42s4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27947 Just a little query about what our dear Dumbledore says at the end of GOF. He says, "Now i have work for each of you. Fudge's attitude, though not unexpected, changes everything. Sirius, I need you to set off at once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mudungus Fletcher --- the old crowd. Lie low at Lupin's for a while; I will contact you there." I know that Lupin is cool and all but i am a bit concerned that we just dont know enough about these other characters to assume that they will not say something along the lines of OH MY GOD!!! IT'S SIRIUS BLACK!!! STUPIFY!!! and then immediately call the ministry. We know of Mudungus Fletcher from the Quiddich Cup but i dont believe that arabella figg was mentioned prior to her summons from dumbledore. (I have a pretty good feeling that they were all of the same year/house as each other at 'ogwarts, but can we really trust that comradery after haveing graduated so long ago??) Just wondering Scott From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 20:26:20 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5) In-Reply-To: <20011019202151.96106.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011019202620.92096.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27948 I assume that since they both went to hogwarts that she was probably a few years under him, and so because we do so cling to our childhood that he just well... you know still looked at her like the first year she was when she arrived. Also i think that he may have had personal beef with james and lily seeing as how they were in rival houses. so maybe the hesitation was soaking in the evil victory of winning and getting to kill a nemisis??? Scott --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > > --- "Cindy C." wrote: > > punkieshazam at y... wrote: > > > So why would Voldemort be reluctant to kill Lily? > > I've wondered if it might just be he prefers, on > the whole, not to kill witches unless absolutely > necessary - possibly out of respect for his mother's > memory? > > > Cindy (who has always been puzzled that Voldemort > calls Lily, a grown > > woman with a child, "silly girl") > > When you're fifty something a woman of twenty odd > probably does seem like a girl. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 20:33:29 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5) In-Reply-To: <20011019202620.92096.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011019203329.20956.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27949 --- scott chatten wrote: > I assume that since they both went to hogwarts that > she was probably a few years under him, As I understand it Voldy was at Hogwarts some thirty odd years before James and Lily's time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 19 20:44:37 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:44:37 -0000 Subject: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: <20011019200457.88675.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qq3bl+eb5o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27950 Scott wrote: > I have a little bit of a problem with that. Granted > that Crouch Jr. Was weaker than his father. He does > say something that strikes me. In GOF (the > unforgivable curses) page 217 he says after casting > the killing curse. > > "Avada Dedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of > mayic behind it --- you could all get your wands out > now and point them at me and say the words, and i > doubt i'd get so much as a nosebleed." > > This says to me gee scott this guy must be pretty > powerful to be able to cast an unblockable curse that > kills on target. I think it is hard to sort out the relative power of Crouch Sr. vs. Crouch Jr. Crouch/Moody only kills a spider with Avada Kedavra, right? Maybe it takes some magical power to kill a bug, but much more to kill a wizard. The best evidence of Crouch/Moody's power might come later, when he kills Crouch Sr. (who is in a seriously weakened state, BTW). But we don't know exactly how Crouch/Moody killed Crouch Sr. (he never tells us). So we do know that Crouch/Moody is powerful enough to cast Avada Kedavra on a spider, but we don't know if Crouch/Moody cast it on Crouch Sr., but since we don't know if Crouch Sr. can also cast Avada Kedavra, the whole tortured analysis doesn't tell us a lot about their relative power. And of course, Avada Kedavra is different from Imperius because the former cannot be blocked, while the latter can be blocked. So they're probably not really comparable. I think all the facts we have about Crouch/Moody show he is a reasonably powerful wizard, but still less powerful than Crouch Sr. (who Sirius called "powerfully magical"). [And while I'm on the subject, I'll issue a quick L.O.O.N alert. I made an error in my prior post in which I said Wormtail placed Crouch Sr. under the Imperius Curse. Under Veritaserum, Crouch Jr. tells us that Voldemort did that. That fact actually makes the theory stronger, because Voldemort apparently was unwilling to delegate this task to Wormtail, presumably because Voldemort's Imperius Curse (even in his slimy baby state) would be a great deal stronger than Wormtail's.] Scott wrote: Much less get Viktor Krum (a seventh > year from a school which concentrates heavily on the > dark arts) to fall to the imperius curse and then cast > the cruciatus curse on a fellow student (i firmly > believe that krum was trying to fight that hard). I think Victor is easy pickings for Crouch/Moody, frankly. Victor is only a student, and perhaps not that powerful aside from his flying talent. Also, his transformation as a shark in the second task wasn't exactly impressive. (That dragon conjunctivitus curse in the First Task was nothing to write home about, either). Maybe Victor could have cast off Crouch/Moody's Imperius Curse after a while, but not right away. Scott wrote: > Based on this fact i dont think that the imperius > curse is something that can just be routinely cast by > a wizard of diminished power of any sort. Simply > because the battle of minds that the caster has to > employ would be no small thing. I didn't mean to suggest that weakened or injured wizards could perform the Imperius Curse. I meant to say it is a function the power of the wizard casting it compared to the power of the wizard resisting it. A boxing match would be a fair analogy. You have two boxers, both with some ability. Who wins depends on the skill (power) of each boxer compared with the other. Scott wrote: Why > wouldn't young mr. crouch be just a little more > apprehensive about the fact the harry could fight it > the very first time it was cast on him. Using the boxing analogy, imagine that I sparred with Joe Frazier in his prime, and he was able to, well, beat the heck out of me. That fact wouldn't be very important to Muhammad Ali, who is much better than me and can hand Joe Frazier his head any day. Similarly, Crouch/Moody would figure that Harry's ability to fend off Crouch/Moody's Imperius curse is equally irrelevant to Voldemort because of the perceived disparity in power between Voldemort and Harry. Also, Crouch/Moody has precious little incentive to advise Voldemort that Harry can throw off his Imperius curse given that Voldemort might disagree with these teaching methods, and DEs who anger Voldemort tend to pay a price for it. I really hope that in future books we learn a bit more about defending against curses. Right now, we've only seen a few "defensive" maneuvers (blocking Imperio, the shield charm, Priori Incantatem). The kids have a lot to learn in this area before they are ready for prime time. Scott wrote: You would > think that after his master's downfall that the death > eaters and their master would be just a little more > cautious about their actions. (and weaknesses) I think > the dark lord hasn't exactly done his homework. > Ain't it the truth! Good help is hard to find, no? Cindy (who hopes that she just used the very first ever heavyweight boxing analogy on HP4GU) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 19 20:51:08 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:51:08 -0000 Subject: The old crowd In-Reply-To: <9qq224+42s4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qq3ns+oban@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27951 Scott wrote: [Dumbledore] says, "Now i have work for each of you. Fudge's attitude, > though not unexpected, changes everything. Sirius, I need you to set > off at once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mudungus > Fletcher --- the old crowd. Lie low at Lupin's for a while; I will > contact you there." I know that Lupin is cool and all but i am a bit > concerned that we just dont know enough about these other characters > to assume that they will not say something along the lines of OH MY > GOD!!! IT'S SIRIUS BLACK!!! STUPIFY!!! and then immediately call the > ministry. Good Point! Hopefully, Sirius will check in with Lupin first and send an owl to the members of the old crowd rather than just turn up on their doorsteps. Or he can have Lupin handle any personal contact that needs to happen. Sirius should know he can't risk being seen in his non-canine state until his name is cleared or until Dumbledore expressly tells him to. Cindy From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 20:51:30 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR & CSL continued In-Reply-To: <001a01c1588a$67421640$9392aecb@price> Message-ID: <20011019205130.75997.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27952 --- Tabouli wrote: > I meant that CSL's "character growth" is a >simplistic, fairytale style "character reform", 'It would be nice, and fairly nearly true, to say that "from that time forth Eustace was a different boy." To be strictly accurate, he began to be a different boy. He had relapses. There were still many days when he could be very tiresome. But most of those I shall not notice. The cure had begun. C. S. Lewis, Voyage of the Dawn Treader Doesn't sound all that simplistic or 'fairytale' to me. In fact Eustace goes on having his tiresome moments right up to 'The Last Battle'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 20:56:14 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:56:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] That Wacky Prefect Debate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27953 Perhaps Cho Chang will become a prefect if it isn't Hermione.That might buildher as a character.From Andrea >From: "jenny from ravenclaw" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] That Wacky Prefect Debate >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:16:58 -0000 > >I'm not even near to being caught up with today's postings, but I was >reading through yesterday's and I wanted to say this before I forget. > >We are all wondering who will be a prefect next year, and consensus >says that Hermione is a definite. Quite a few people have also >nominated Harry and Ron as probabilities. Now, I know I am thinking >like the teacher I am, but why would either Harry or Ron be a good >candidate for prefecthood? As much as I adore Harry, I don't think >he's prefect material. We have a few prefects to judge by (and that's >not much), but I believe prefects are chosen by their grades and >behavior. There is no evidence that Harry gets above average grades >and we all know he has been in trouble and has lost points for his >house many times. He is also busy with Quidditch and, not to be >ignored, avidly hunted by the biggest and baddest Dark Wizard around. >If I was a teacher at Hogwarts I'd recommend Harry not be elected for >the position. Aside from all of the things I mentioned, I don't think >Harry would even want the job. He is not one to turn in other >students or take points from houses. Harry hates the responsibilities >his life has given him and hates being the constant focus of >everyone's attention; why would he want to be a prefect, too? > >I feel much the same way about Ron. His grades are probably similar >to Harry's and he has also been in his share of trouble. I also don't >see Ron as much of a leader. I'm not saying that I think Percy is a >great leader, but he had the confidence as a prefect to stand up to >students, even from his own house, when they are acting out of line. >I cannot see Ron doing that. > >I'm very curious to see how JKR will handle this. > >--jenny from ravenclaw *********************** > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 20:58:25 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:58:25 -0000 Subject: Lily and Petunia In-Reply-To: <20011019200422.81092.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qq45h+emnm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27954 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > --- rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > Nightshades and petunias are solanaceous plants [family > > Solanaceae], which includes the nightshades, tobacco, ground > > cherry, tomato, eggplant, red pepper, etc. Not all nightshades > > are poisonous. > > > > Lilies are in the family Liliaceae, which includes > > onions, garlics, lilies, and numerous other plants. > > My God, that's even better! Petunia is allied to poisons, (deadly > nightshade and tobacco) while Lily is associated with a powerful > protective plant, (garlic). You don't suppose JKR did that on > purpose do you? Given everything else that she seems to have put into the books, it's possible, but then again, it could just be a clever resonance. After all, tomatoes, peppers, and eggplants aren't poisonous. And while you've classified tobacco as a poison, it actually has medicinal use for bruises and contusions primarily in veterinary medicine, although this use has faded somewhat in modern times. I wouldn't doubt that the lily family has some poisonous species, and as I said, the nightshade family is hardly all poisonous. In fact, I remember reading in one of my sources that the nightshade family is a cornucopia of profitable plant species (or words to similar effect). So, I don't think the associations are necessarily quite that facile.... ....Craig From redmond_lisa at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 20:59:57 2001 From: redmond_lisa at yahoo.com (lisa palmer) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: apparation at Hogwarts Message-ID: <20011019205957.61431.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27955 Hermione says that House Elves possess powerful magic of their own. And in fact, we have seen many examples of House Elf magic, Aunt Petunia's pudding escapade, the platform, and the bludger. But we don't really have a way of knowing how closely related the magic of elves is to wizards. In book 4 however, Winky is suspected of using a wizard's wand, so perhaps magic is magic, House elf or wizard. The reason why this matters to me is that in Book two, Dobby dissapears at Hogwarts with a "CLAP". Is this apparating at Hogwarts? In all four of the books I think Hermione mentions at least once that it is impossible to apparate on Hogwarts grounds, and that it says so in Hogwarts, A History. Do you think Dobby is apparating? Did Hermione misread? Or is this only a myth of Hogwarts, that everyone is too afraid to test, after all, apparating is a nasty business which can get you splinched. I am eager to here what people's opinons are on this. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From redmond_lisa at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 21:02:48 2001 From: redmond_lisa at yahoo.com (lisa palmer) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The old crowd In-Reply-To: <9qq3ns+oban@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011019210248.6225.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27956 "Cindy C." wrote: Scott wrote: [Dumbledore] says, "Now i have work for each of you. Fudge's attitude, > though not unexpected, changes everything. Sirius, I need you to set > off at once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mudungus > Fletcher --- the old crowd. Lie low at Lupin's for a while; I will > contact you there." I know that Lupin is cool and all but i am a bit > concerned that we just dont know enough about these other characters > to assume that they will not say something along the lines of OH MY > GOD!!! IT'S SIRIUS BLACK!!! STUPIFY!!! and then immediately call the > ministry. Good Point! Hopefully, Sirius will check in with Lupin first and send an owl to the members of the old crowd rather than just turn up on their doorsteps. Or he can have Lupin handle any personal contact that needs to happen. Sirius should know he can't risk being seen in his non-canine state until his name is cleared or until Dumbledore expressly tells him to. Cindy If the "old Crowd" is a tight nit group of Dumbledore's, then he might have kept them up to speed with Sirius Black and Harry. This group is sure to trust Dumbledore's word, I don't se a reason why Dumbledore would continue to hide the reality of events from them. Lisa Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 21:06:57 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:06:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27957 The initiative may be more important than the power because for Voldy making Harry bow to him was fun and games. However resisting this was very vital to Harry.Perhaps since Harry cared more about the situation he managed to hold it of some?So perhaps this theory PLUS Cindy's theory would make sense? From Andrea (newmember) >From: scott chatten >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) > >I have a little bit of a problem with that. Granted >that Crouch Jr. Was weaker than his father. He does >say something that strikes me. In GOF (the >unforgivable curses) page 217 he says after casting >the killing curse. > >"Avada Dedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of >mayic behind it --- you could all get your wands out >now and point them at me and say the words, and i >doubt i'd get so much as a nosebleed." > >This says to me gee scott this guy must be pretty >powerful to be able to cast an unblockable curse that >kills on target. Much less get Viktor Krum (a seventh >year from a school which concentrates heavily on the >dark arts) to fall to the imperius curse and then cast >the cruciatus curse on a fellow student (i firmly >believe that krum was trying to fight that hard). >Based on this fact i dont think that the imperius >curse is something that can just be routinely cast by >a wizard of diminished power of any sort. Simply >because the battle of minds that the caster has to >employ would be no small thing. (although JKR never >gives us a look at the imperius curse from the casters >point of view) and there for it still stands. Why >wouldn't young mr. crouch be just a little more >apprehensive about the fact the harry could fight it >the very first time it was cast on him. You would >think that after his master's downfall that the death >eaters and their master would be just a little more >cautious about their actions. (and weaknesses) I think >the dark lord hasn't exactly done his homework. > > >Scott >--- "Cindy C." wrote: > > Scott wrote: > > > what i amd wondering in concern to the whole > > ordeal is > > > not only why you young Mr. Crouch gave the > > practice to > > > Harry but also why is it that he didn't let > > > he-who-must-not-be-named know of the threat? > > > > Lucy wrote:> > > > > > > The thing that really gets me, is WHY does > > > > Crouch/Moody teach Harry how to throw off the > > > > Imperious Curse? He already knows Harry is very > > > > unusual, and plans to give him to Voldemort to > > kill, > > > > so why on earth does he give him all that extra > > > > practice in that class to give Harry another > > weapon > > > > to use??? > > > > > > > > Hi Scott and Lucy, > > > > At the very real risk that this has been discussed > > before, I had a > > thought. I have always thought the reason > > Crouch/Moody teaches Harry > > how to resist the Imperio curse is because > > Dumbledore asked him to, > > or he thinks he needs to do it to stay "in > > character." I also > > figured that Crouch/Moody wouldn't bother to tell > > Voldemort because > > Imperio isn't a crucial component of Voldemort's > > plan to kill Harry. > > > > But how about this theory instead? Maybe the > > Imperio Curse is only > > as strong as the wizard casting it. If so, then > > Crouch/Moody > > wouldn't need to worry about teaching Harry how to > > throw it off or > > worry about telling Voldemort. Voldemort is much > > more powerful than > > Crouch/Moody, so even if Harry can resist > > Crouch/Moody's Imperio, > > Harry won't necessarily stand a chance of resisting > > Voldemort's > > Imperio. Should the day ever come (as it did) that > > Voldemort would > > need to put Harry under the Imperio Curse, then the > > training Harry > > received from Crouch/Moody still wouldn't be a > > threat to Voldemort. > > So there'd be no reason for Crouch/Moody even to > > tell Voldemort about > > the training, as it is unimportant. > > > > There is a teaspoon of canon to support this idea > > that the Imperio > > curse is only as strong as the wizard casting it. > > Presumably, > > Wormtail places Crouch Sr. under the Imperius Curse, > > and Crouch Sr. > > is able to throw it off, and we know Wormtail is a > > "talentless thing" > > (according to Sirius). Also, we are told by > > Karkarov that > > Mulciber "specializes" in the Imperius Curse, which > > suggests that > > there is some benefit from having your Imperius > > specialist place the > > curse on someone rather than having someone less > > skilled or powerful > > do it. > > > > Also, consider how long it takes various wizards to > > cast off the > > Imperius curse cast by various wizards. Crouch Sr. > > (powerful wizard) > > is able to cast off Wormtail's (talentless wizard) > > Imperius Curse in > > a few months. Crouch Jr. (competent wizard) takes > > years to throw off > > Crouch Sr.'s (powerful wizard) Imperius curse. > > Crouch Jr. (competent > > wizard) doesn't take chances and rely only on the > > Imperius curse to > > control the real Moody (powerful wizard); he stuns > > him too. > > > > Of course, if this theory holds, then it is proof > > positive that Harry > > is stronger than Voldemort, because he threw off > > Voldemort's Imperius > > curse in seconds. > > > > Does this theory add up? > > > > Cindy (as Bagman would say, "this should shorten the > > odds on Mr. > > Potter") > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > > united, as weak as we are divided. > > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > > trust. Differences of habit and language are > > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > > hearts are open." > > > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > > Files! > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > > > Unsubscribing? Email > > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 21:12:59 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:12:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Petunia Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27958 Good point. JKR really does her research as every HPfan knows . It's quite possible. In fact I think you've got a theory. Are there any other flower/plant names? Andrea >From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Petunia >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:04:22 -0700 (PDT) > > > >--- rcraigharman at hotmail.com wrote: > > > Nightshades and petunias are solanaceous plants > > [family Solanaceae], > > which includes the nightshades, tobacco, ground > > cherry, tomato, > > eggplant, red pepper, etc. Not all nightshades are > > poisonous. > > > > Lilies are in the family Liliaceae, which includes > > onions, garlics, > > lilies, and numerous other plants. > > My God, that's even better! Petunia is allied to >poisons, (deadly nightshade and tobacco) while Lily is >associated with a powerful protective plant, (garlic). >You don't suppose JKR did that on purpose do you? > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Oct 19 21:15:45 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:15:45 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Some reminders Message-ID: <3BD09801.3060100@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27959 Hi -- Sorry to be posting yet another ADMIN message today ... Welcome to all our newbies! I see lots of new names popping up in our postings. I do want to draw your attention to a few things about the group if I can have your attention just briefly. Please be sure you've read our "10 Commandments" of Posting, which are located at the group's homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In particular, please note the following: 1. Give us *context* -- there have been several messages where people just started talking as though in mid-conversation & I was left shaking my head, wondering *what* was being referred to. Please summarize or judiciously quote the message that you are replying to. 2. Please use capitalization, whole sentences and proper punctuation. This is a group of adults, and everyone will be able to read your messages much more clearly if you take the time to compose in this way. 3. Please snip unnecessary quoted material. 4. Take pride in the *appearance* of your message -- take a second to look it over before you hit "send." Is it clear & "user-friendly" so to speak? Here are the components of what I like to see in a good, user-friendly message: ** Nice clear subject heading ** Salutation ** Your message (OR, if it's a reply/response, trim quoted material, followed by your own thoughts, with a clear delineation between what someone else has said & what you are saying) NOTE: I do think it looks best & is easiest to follow if your original thoughts *FOLLOW* the quoted material or summary of someone else's thoughts/argument/position ** Closing & signature 5. Combine shorter responses into one email. 6. If it's personal, send it off-list. If it is Off-Topic, send it to OT-Chatter. Don't type "This is probably off-topic but..." or "This is probably against the rules but ..." If you type something like that, chances are good that your message *is* inappropriate for the list & you know it. 7. Keep watching the subject headings to be sure they stay on point. 8. Use the Announcements List. (See previous ADMIN message earlier today) In closing, please review all the Group's ADMIN files (Netiquette, VFAQs, commonly used acronyms). If you have any questions, contact your List Elf or the Moderator Team. If you don't have a List Elf, contact us at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Finally, *please, please, please* use the hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com address rather than my personal email. I am not always online (contrary to popular opinion), and I am not always the Moderator best-equipped to answer all questions. Despite removal of my personal email from the group homepage, I still inexplicably receive a fair bit of email queries that are better directed to the Moderator Team as a whole. For example, all technical questions get handled by Jim, John or Neil, depending on who's available. Thanks! Penny Magical Moderator Team From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 19 21:22:31 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:22:31 -0000 Subject: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qq5in+vimv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27960 Andrea wrote: > The initiative may be more important than the power because for Voldy making > Harry bow to him was fun and games. However resisting this was very vital to > Harry.Perhaps since Harry cared more about the situation he managed to hold > it of some?So perhaps this theory PLUS Cindy's theory would make sense? Welcome, Andrea! Q: Will Cindy ever shut up about the Imperius Curse? A: Apparently not. I had forgotten about the bowing business in the graveyard. Good point! I don't think Voldemort used Imperio to do that, though. When forced to bow, Harry doesn't report a blissful feeling of having his mind wiped clean, the way he does with the Imperio Curse. He reports feeling an invisible hand bending him forward. Also, it is almost like Voldemort's wand reaches out and touches Harry, as we are told that Voldemort raised his wand to cast this "bowing" spell, then lifted it to release it. I don't know what exactly that little bowing spell was all about, but I guess everyone aspiring to be an Evil Overlord should master a bowing spell for underlings who prove reluctant to bow properly. Cindy From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Oct 19 21:29:21 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:29:21 -0500 Subject: Dumbledore's Death -- Draco & Quidditch -- Voldemort related to Harry -- Ginny again References: <164.295640c.2901d27e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BD09B31.3030101@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27961 Hi -- SALeathem at aol.com wrote: > > Funny you should say that, cos when GoF was published last year, I'm > *sure* I heard JKR say that Dumbledore dies in the next book (in one of the many > CBBC> TV appearances she made at the time). There were hints all over the end of > GoF of his impending fate as well - plenty of detail being given of how > Harry> thinks he (Dumbledore) is looking so old and weary, and not his usual > self in> some way. I actually thought JKR had said that Dumbledore dies at the > end of> GoF but obviously, that didn't happen. So she must have meant Book 5. I agree that there is certainly foreshadowing of Dumbledore's eventual death in the series. But, I have serious doubts that JKR has *ever* specifically identified any character as a *definite* death, let alone laid out any sort of timetable for it. She's entirely too cagey in interviews & chats to ever give anything away. Dorothy said: > In the same way that Draco is > obsessed with Harry...Draco wants to play Quidditch because Harry > does. Actually, Draco has apparently been playing Quidditch well before Harry even knows he's a wizard. It's not a sport that he took up in response to Harry being a Seeker. He complains about 1st years not being allowed on the teams, and given his flying abilities, it seems reasonably clear that Draco has Quidditch experience. VOLDEMORT RELATED TO HARRY? I see that the old "Voldemort is related to Harry" theories are starting up again. :--) Aside from the fact that JKR has said in a chat that this would be "too Star Wars-ish," which all but confirms that Voldie is *not* related to Harry, there are genealogical problems with the theory too. Dumbledore says that Voldemort is the *last* remaining descendant of Slytherin. If true, Voldemort has no descendants. None. GINNY -- MagicDust! wrote: > Girl next door or not, Ginny most definetely has a crush on Harry. > I'm thinking that with Cho so upset over Cedric Ginny'll probably > start offering advice to Harry following the best Dawson's Creek > traditions and this will probably have the same effect as the > Pacey/Joey love thing going on. :::has heart attack that anyone can mention HP & that horrid Dawson's Creek show in the same breath::: > Incidentally, on-screen time or not, she takes up a good chunk of > the second book with her trials and tribulations as "owner" of Tom > Riddle's Diary, so I think she's in the running for love interest. We the readers don't see any of these trials/tribulations. Ginny is only in the action down in the Chamber, and of course, she's unconscious for most all of that. She may be pivotal to the plot, but her character isn't advanced any at all by this role. Really, *anyone* could have played the role of Pawn of Tom Riddle/Keeper of the Diary". We don't learn much of anything about her. She is still very much a background character, and slips even further into the background in the succeeding books of PoA & GoF. *If* she is to be a legitimate love interest of our hero, she needs to be considerably more developed as a character in the next book(s) before that can happen. Penny Penny From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 21:37:15 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:37:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] apparation at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27962 I think the 'CLAP' dissapearance made by Dobby was actually NOT an apparition because 1)Hermione is rarely wrong 2)The rule of no apparitions makes sense 3)House elves probably have thier own brand of magic allowing them to go from one place to another to do chores 4) Since house elves are so closely bound to do right it would be perfectly safe to allow them this 5) Since Hogwarts; A History doesn't even mention house elves at all there is reason to believe that there no apparition rule/impossibility doesn'y apply to them 6) Their magic is so powerful that they can easily do what they want HOWEVER not many of them are free so this does not matter to them. So either all houseelves can "apparate" in their own brand of magic in order to get to their chores quicker or they can only do this if they are free like Dobby. Andrea(newmember) >From: lisa palmer >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] apparation at Hogwarts >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:59:57 -0700 (PDT) > > >Hermione says that House Elves possess powerful magic of their own. And in >fact, we have seen many examples of House Elf magic, Aunt Petunia's pudding >escapade, the platform, and the bludger. But we don't really have a way >of knowing how closely related the magic of elves is to wizards. In book 4 >however, Winky is suspected of using a wizard's wand, so perhaps magic is >magic, House elf or wizard. The reason why this matters to me is that in >Book two, Dobby dissapears at Hogwarts with a "CLAP". Is this apparating >at Hogwarts? In all four of the books I think Hermione mentions at least >once that it is impossible to apparate on Hogwarts grounds, and that it >says so in Hogwarts, A History. Do you think Dobby is apparating? Did >Hermione misread? Or is this only a myth of Hogwarts, that everyone is too >afraid to test, after all, apparating is a nasty business which can get you >splinched. I am eager to here what people's opinons are on this. > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do You Yahoo!? >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From degroote at altavista.com Fri Oct 19 21:47:11 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 19 Oct 2001 14:47:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's ages Message-ID: <20011019214711.5322.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 27963 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 21:48:22 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:48:22 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Creevies? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27964 doubt it >From: alexp at alltel.net >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Creevies? >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:50:28 -0000 > >Could the Creevies be evil? Voldies spies? Milkman dad-Or Deatheater >Dad? >HMM!!;~) > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From vheggie at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 21:48:11 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (Vanessa) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:48:11 -0000 Subject: apparation at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qq72r+4u8s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27965 [snip whether or not Dobby's 'clap' was an apparation] Is it possible that one can apparate WITHIN Hogwarts but not INTO it (i.e. not from Hogsmeade to Hogwarts, but you can go from the Great Hall to the kitchen)? On reflection, this seems like such an obvious suggestion that I can't beleive it hasn't come up before...perhaps someone can point me towards the right messages in the past... From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Oct 19 22:15:45 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:15:45 -0000 Subject: Prefect choice Message-ID: <9qq8mi+3k9l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27966 Just some general stuff on how prefects might be chosen. I wrote most of this before Jenny did hers It strikes me that past rule breaking and good grades are only weakly correlated with being made a prefect. Prefects will be chosen: a) to help uphold school rules b) to take some routine administrative load (such as telling house members what the password is) c) to give selected students the chance to carry responsibility It might be imagined that the fact that Draco ot Harry have broken school rules would count against them. But rulebreaking, as Dumbledore implies in his talk about Slytherin, is just leadership material still in immaturity. I'm sure that the professors are used to the spectacle every year of the Year 3 and 4 tearaways mutating into responsible young men and women; they will expect the same of this crop. Furthermore, there is the old adage about employing a poacher as a gamekeeper. Not only do rulebreakers have the best idea about what their successors might be up to, it helps with objective c) above to give them a chance to redeem themselves. Secondly, good grades have little to do with this. *Very* bad grades might disqualify a person; mediocre ones would not as long as they are not a sign of idleness. Prefects are supposed to be an example, but only in behaviour, not talent. Very good grades might be considered a slight disadvantage if they were perceived as being associated with a withdrawal from student life into study. Hermione has clearly not so withdrawn. Some prefect duties are clearly house-based, so it's likely that they are chosen by the head of house, or at least names submitted by them. Dumbledore makes clear that most disciplinary issues are a house matter so it's not unreasonable to suppose that in practice prefect choice is also left to the house. But since we don't know the total number of prefects we don't know how much flexibility there is provided there is at least one from each house. If Snape recommended Draco I really doubt anyone would argue - the teachers respect Snape. Harry as a special case. I think there would have to be a specific reason (such as being sent away from Hogwarts on a mission) that would make him unable to do his prefectly duties. Merely being at the centre of the storm would not be enough. Finally, choice. Are students able to refuse if they don't want to do the job? I suppose a sensible teacher would realise that an unwilling prefect will be a bad one - I'm not altogether sure how much 'sensible' applies at Hogwarts. My own limited predictions are in Amy's polls David From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 22:34:53 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:34:53 -0000 Subject: apparation at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9qq72r+4u8s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qq9qd+8alc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27967 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vanessa" wrote: > [snip whether or not Dobby's 'clap' was an apparation] > > Is it possible that one can apparate WITHIN Hogwarts but not INTO it > (i.e. not from Hogsmeade to Hogwarts, but you can go from the Great > Hall to the kitchen)? Not according to Snape in PoA. I don't have my book with me, but it's when he and Fudge have discovered that Sirius has escaped. It is clear that one cannot Apparate from Flitwick's office to the entrance hall, e.g. We can call what house-elves do Apparition, but it is a form of the art of which humans are incapable. Amy Z From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 22:40:40 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:40:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP4GU Contest #17 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27968 Hello! I like the 3rd name for the FAQ. You know, the Nitpicker one! >From: "Joywitch M. Curmudgeon" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP4GU Contest #17 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:59:31 -0000 > >For this week's contest, you are being asked to help the moderators >with a vexing little dilemma. As you know, and are perhaps confused >by, HP4GU has a plethora of files for your amusement and edification: >the Very Frequently Asked Questions (VFAQs), the Frequently Asked >Questions (FAQs), the Netiquette file, the list of abbreviations, >etc., etc., etc. All of which you've read, right? > >The most fascinating of these files, as all good HP4GU members know, >is what is currently called the FAQ file, which is a very long >collection of essays, located at the Harry Potter Lexicon site run by >list-member and L.O.O.N. spiritual leader Steve Vander Ark. It is >highly recommended that, if you are not familiar with these wonderful >FAQ files, that you wander over to > >http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ > >and spend some time browsing. Now, we all know that FAQ stands >for "Frequently Asked Questions." However, these files have evolved >into something much more than just questions about HP that are asked >a lot. Plus, people tend to confuse "VFAQ" with "FAQ." So, it has >been decided that we need to rename the FAQ files. This is where YOU >come in -- what do YOU think these files should be called? Here are >some, mostly lame, suggestions: > >- The Pensieve (or The HP4GU Pensieve) >- The Very Large File Full of Harry Potter Speculation from HP4GU >- The Official League Of Obsessed Nitpickers' Guide to Harry Potter >- Substantive Topical Essays >- Frequently Discussed Topics > >Do you like any of these titles? If so, why? Do you have a better >suggestion for what we should rename the FAQs? (Please tell me that >someone does.) Please let me know what you think, by email to >HP4GUCon at aol.com or to the above address (save your message and >resend it if you don't receive an acknowledgment from me.) > >If you come up with a new name that all of our esteemed Moderators >like, a plaque with your name on it will be installed in the entrance >to the Renamed FAQ Gallery, which will of course continue to be >located at the world-famous Harry Potter Lexicon facility, which >itself is housed in a large castle at an undisclosed and unplottable >site near Roswell, New Mexico. (We'd let you visit, but we'd have to >perform a memory charm on you afterwards, but rest assured that the >plaque will be there.) > >Joywitch > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 22:40:41 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:40:41 -0000 Subject: The significance of first names in HP books. In-Reply-To: <9qp5qu+i9sq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qqa59+dter@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27969 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ginny Gryffindor" wrote: > I wonder, why "Hermione"? All I know is that Hermione > is Helen's daughter, and wife to Neoptolemus (did I spell that > right?) and later, Orestes. (I sincerely hope I didn't mess up > on that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.). Any ideas? > b.jebenstreit at b... wrote: > The mythical Hermione was supposed to be very wise and learned - I > guess that is the reason for becoming our Hermione?s namesake. The > mythical Hermione died a tragic death - I severly hope this will *not* > happen to ours. > Oh, I hope not either! But the Hermione in literature I like best is the one in *The Winter's Tale*. I wrote a paper on it this summer and was lucky enough to catch it at the National Theatre while in London. There are other interesting allusions there IMO... does anyone else see Ron as Leontes? --Ebony AKA AngieJ From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 22:36:05 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:36:05 -0000 Subject: Hermione's ages In-Reply-To: <20011019214711.5322.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <9qq9sl+2rrs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27970 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote wrote: > > Perhpas Hermione was already ahead in school?! She's obviously extremely bright. She may have been tested in for an early start for KG (or whatever in the UK) or maybe bumped up a grade once she was in school. Dumbledoer may have been made aware of this about-to-turn-11- year-old who is extremely bright, with a future as a powerful witch, let's get her in here ASAP...Emma Watson was 10 y/o during the filming of PS/SS, maybe this was importtant JKR that it be a younger girl playign Hermione just for this reason? > You're right IMO, Vicky. *All* the evidence save the British Muggle education system itself points to Hermione being 10 upon starting Hogwarts. I spent the summer studying the British educational system when this question came up and asked my tutor if it was possible for a child to begin school early or to be accelerated at some point. His answers seemed to allow for exceptions to be made. Another thought: if Hermione *is* nearly 12 upon starting Hogwarts, then during her entire last year at first school she had to keep the secret of being a witch to herself. Hogwarts students get their letters shortly before their ELEVENTH birthdays, not their twelfth. This just doesn't fit in with the books IMO. This is now the question that I most want to ask JKR: "In what year was Hermione born?" Mods, is there some way to add this to the list of questions we send in for online chats with JKR? I am sure there may be one around the time of the movie's release. > On Fri, 19 October 2001, pengolodh_sc at y... wrote: > Regarding school-systems, I see Hogwarts as being very integrated into the British system of primary and secondary schools. If Sept. 1st is the break-off date in muggle schools in Britain, and Hogwarts allows muggleborn/muggleraised students, it will be prudent for Hogwarts to adopt the same break-off date. If it has a break-off date that makes Hermione among the youngest in her year, she'd have to miss a year of primary school. I can see muggle parents disagreeing to this. I also fail to see any compelling reasons why Hermione should not be among the oldest in her year. Christian, I adore you, but I'm convinced this is not the case. We were shocked to learn this summer that the American compulsory, free, and state-supported educational system predates the British. Hogwarts is 1000 years old and you can't even use regular electricity in the school. Also--since Hogwarts is in Scotland--doesn't Scotland have their own formal educational system anyway? Even so, again that's the Muggle side of things that postdates the wizarding by just about a full millennium. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From r_vonbickel at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 22:39:20 2001 From: r_vonbickel at yahoo.com (r_vonbickel at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:39:20 -0000 Subject: Question about Book Four Message-ID: <9qqa2o+33jr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27971 Hello-- I was wondering if someone could explain something that doesn' make any sense to me. In the beginning of Book Four it says that all three Riddles are found dead, including the teenage son, Tom, i.e. Voldemort. I still can't fingure out how this can be the case. Did he stage his own death? Where is this ever explained? Thanks-- A fan From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 22:59:56 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5) In-Reply-To: <20011019203329.20956.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011019225956.43004.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27972 sorry never quite caught that... what did you base your assumption on? --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > > --- scott chatten wrote: > > I assume that since they both went to hogwarts > that > > she was probably a few years under him, > > As I understand it Voldy was at Hogwarts some > thirty odd years before James and Lily's time. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 23:29:30 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: <9qq3bl+eb5o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011019232930.68655.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27973 I like the theory but (if you will please forgive me for being so contrary) i still can't get a handle on the whole powerful v.s. not powerful thing. i mean if harry can cast (though i know this is a major difference) a summoning charm on a book or a broom or a trophy and have it (after learning the charm first of course) come to him just the same. I would think that it would sort of be relative to other forms of magic. On the flip side to support my little theory of magic effects relying on the power of the subject not the caster. one stunning charm was enough for harry to put out Viktor Krum during the third task. and yet to put out four dragons it took over thirty wizards!!!! In case any of you wanna correct me on how harry might have got an adrenneline rush or maybe that the dragon's scales may reflect some of the spells keep this in mind. What could bring more adrenneline than having to subdue a dragon or rescue a friend. and i would say a first year v.s. a fourth year is about equal to 7 wizards v.s. one dragon. oh well let me know what you think and if you wanna read the quotes that i got all my info from here you go!!! yours truly Scott P.S. Here are the quotes that back me up: GOF (The third task{Page 626}) : "'What are you doing?' yelled Cedric's voice. 'What the hell d'you think you're doing?' And then Harry heard Krum's voice. 'Crucio!' The air was suddenly full of Cedric's yells. Horrified, Harry began sprinting up his path, trying to find a way into Cedric's. When none appeared, he tried the Reductor Curse again. It wasn't bery effective, but it burned a smapp hole in the hedge through which Harry forced his leg, kicking at the thinck brambles and branches until they brok and made an opening; he struggled through it,tearing his robes, and looking to his right, saw Cedric jerking and twitching on the ground, Krum standing over him. Harry pulled himself up and pointed his wand at Krum just as Krum looked up. Krum turned and began to run. 'Stupefy!' Harry yelled. The spell hit Krum in the bback; he stopped dead in his tracks fell forward, and lay motionless, facedown in the grass. " and for our dear little horntail GOF (The Hungarian Horntail{page 326}) "At least thirty wizards, seven or eight to each dragon, were attempting to control them, pulling on the chains connected to heavy leather straps around their necks and legs. Mesmerized, Harry looked up, high above him, and saw they eyes of the black dragon, with vertical pupils like a cat's bulging with either fear or rage, he couldn't tell which.... It was making a horrible noise, a yowling, screeching scream.... 'Keep back there, Hagrid!' yelled a wizard near the fence, straining on the chain he was holding. 'They can shoot fire at a range of twenty feet, you know! I've seen this Horntail do forty!' 'Is'n'it beautiful?' said Hagrid softly. 'It's no good!' yelled another wizard. 'Stunning Spells, on the count of three!' Harry saw each of the dragon keepers pull out his wand. 'STUPEFY!' they shouted in unison, and the Stunning Spells shot into the darkness like a fiery roucets, bursting in showers of stars on the dragon's scaly hides --- Harry watched the dragon nearest to them teeter dangerously on its back legs; its jaws streched wide in a silent howl; its nostrils were suddenly devoid of flame, though still smoking--- then, very slowly, it fell. --- "Cindy C." wrote: > Scott wrote: > > > I have a little bit of a problem with that. > Granted > > that Crouch Jr. Was weaker than his father. He > does > > say something that strikes me. In GOF (the > > unforgivable curses) page 217 he says after > casting > > the killing curse. > > > > "Avada Dedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit > of > > mayic behind it --- you could all get your wands > out > > now and point them at me and say the words, and i > > doubt i'd get so much as a nosebleed." > > > > This says to me gee scott this guy must be pretty > > powerful to be able to cast an unblockable curse > that > > kills on target. > > > I think it is hard to sort out the relative power of > Crouch Sr. vs. > Crouch Jr. Crouch/Moody only kills a spider with > Avada Kedavra, > right? Maybe it takes some magical power to kill a > bug, but much > more to kill a wizard. The best evidence of > Crouch/Moody's power > might come later, when he kills Crouch Sr. (who is > in a seriously > weakened state, BTW). But we don't know exactly how > Crouch/Moody > killed Crouch Sr. (he never tells us). So we do > know that > Crouch/Moody is powerful enough to cast Avada > Kedavra on a spider, > but we don't know if Crouch/Moody cast it on Crouch > Sr., but since we > don't know if Crouch Sr. can also cast Avada > Kedavra, the whole > tortured analysis doesn't tell us a lot about their > relative power. > > And of course, Avada Kedavra is different from > Imperius because the > former cannot be blocked, while the latter can be > blocked. So > they're probably not really comparable. I think all > the facts we > have about Crouch/Moody show he is a reasonably > powerful wizard, but > still less powerful than Crouch Sr. (who Sirius > called "powerfully > magical"). > > [And while I'm on the subject, I'll issue a quick > L.O.O.N alert. I > made an error in my prior post in which I said > Wormtail placed Crouch > Sr. under the Imperius Curse. Under Veritaserum, > Crouch Jr. tells us > that Voldemort did that. That fact actually makes > the theory > stronger, because Voldemort apparently was unwilling > to delegate this > task to Wormtail, presumably because Voldemort's > Imperius Curse (even > in his slimy baby state) would be a great deal > stronger than > Wormtail's.] > > Scott wrote: > > Much less get Viktor Krum (a seventh > > year from a school which concentrates heavily on > the > > dark arts) to fall to the imperius curse and then > cast > > the cruciatus curse on a fellow student (i firmly > > believe that krum was trying to fight that hard). > > I think Victor is easy pickings for Crouch/Moody, > frankly. Victor is > only a student, and perhaps not that powerful aside > from his flying > talent. Also, his transformation as a shark in the > second task > wasn't exactly impressive. (That dragon > conjunctivitus curse in the > First Task was nothing to write home about, either). > Maybe Victor > could have cast off Crouch/Moody's Imperius Curse > after a while, but > not right away. > > Scott wrote: > > > Based on this fact i dont think that the imperius > > curse is something that can just be routinely cast > by > > a wizard of diminished power of any sort. Simply > > because the battle of minds that the caster has to > > employ would be no small thing. > > I didn't mean to suggest that weakened or injured > wizards could > perform the Imperius Curse. I meant to say it is a > function the > power of the wizard casting it compared to the power > of the wizard > resisting it. A boxing match would be a fair > analogy. You have two > boxers, both with some ability. Who wins depends on > the skill > (power) of each boxer compared with the other. > > > Scott wrote: > > Why > > wouldn't young mr. crouch be just a little more > > apprehensive about the fact the harry could fight > it > > the very first time it was cast on him. > > Using the boxing analogy, imagine that I sparred > with Joe Frazier in > his prime, and he was able to, well, beat the heck > out of me. That > fact wouldn't be very important to Muhammad Ali, who > is much better > than me and can hand Joe Frazier his head any day. > Similarly, > Crouch/Moody would figure that Harry's ability to > fend off > Crouch/Moody's Imperius curse is equally irrelevant > to Voldemort > because of the perceived disparity in power between > Voldemort and > Harry. Also, Crouch/Moody has precious little > incentive to advise > Voldemort that Harry can throw off his Imperius > curse given that > Voldemort might disagree with these teaching > methods, and DEs who > anger Voldemort tend to pay a price for it. > > I really hope that in future books we learn a bit > more about > defending against curses. Right now, we've only > seen a > few "defensive" maneuvers (blocking Imperio, the > shield charm, Priori > Incantatem). The kids have a lot to learn in this > area before they > are ready for prime time. > > Scott wrote: > > You would > > think that after his master's downfall that the > death > > eaters and their master would be just a little > more > > cautious about their actions. (and weaknesses) I > think > > the dark lord hasn't exactly done his homework. > > > > Ain't it the truth! Good help is hard to find, no? > > Cindy (who hopes that she just used the very first > ever heavyweight > boxing analogy on HP4GU) > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 23:31:44 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The old crowd In-Reply-To: <20011019210248.6225.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011019233144.94769.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27974 If that is indeed the case than why would he ask Sirius to notify them in the first place???? --- lisa palmer wrote: > > > "Cindy C." wrote: > Scott wrote: > > [Dumbledore] says, "Now i have work for each of you. > Fudge's > attitude, > > though not unexpected, changes everything. Sirius, > I need you to > set > > off at once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, > Arabella Figg, Mudungus > > Fletcher --- the old crowd. Lie low at Lupin's for > a while; I will > > contact you there." I know that Lupin is cool and > all but i am a > bit > > concerned that we just dont know enough about > these other > characters > > to assume that they will not say something along > the lines of OH MY > > GOD!!! IT'S SIRIUS BLACK!!! STUPIFY!!! and then > immediately call > the > > ministry. > > Good Point! Hopefully, Sirius will check in with > Lupin first and > send an owl to the members of the old crowd rather > than just turn up > on their doorsteps. Or he can have Lupin handle any > personal contact > that needs to happen. Sirius should know he can't > risk being seen in > his non-canine state until his name is cleared or > until Dumbledore > expressly tells him to. > > Cindy > > > If the "old Crowd" is a tight nit group of > Dumbledore's, then he might have kept them up to > speed with Sirius Black and Harry. This group is > sure to trust Dumbledore's word, I don't se a reason > why Dumbledore would continue to hide the reality of > events from them. > > Lisa > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 23:33:23 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:33:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who SHOULD Die in OoP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27975 Hello! Have you noticied ( you must have) that Harry is very indepedent and dependent at the same time? He tries to do many things independently ( with the help of Hermione and Ron of course) and he is consciously/purposesly so.( don't worry I'll get to the point soon enough, it's a lead up) However to survive and learn what is vital for him to know he really needs certain people. Dumbledore would be #1 on that list. I find there is an almost grandfather /son relationship.Harry really relies on Dumbledore but he doesn't really notice that.If Dumbledore died then alot of growth from Harry would follow. I read the whole rebirth thing which would give depth to this prediction b/c if Dumbledore was reborn in book 7 to perhaps finish something that has been going on way too long. ( wink wink knudge knudge perhaps the last of Voldy?) It's a weird theory, I know but perhaps there is truth to it? From Andrea >From: "Cindy C." >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who SHOULD Die in OoP? >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:50:37 -0000 > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001me at y... wrote: > > We've talked a lot about which characters we predict will die in > > OoP. > > > >In other words, what important HP character would die > > if you were writing OoP, and why? If it is a character you find a > > bit annoying and would like to eliminate for that reason, fine. If > > there is a character whose death you think would be especially > > compelling and make OoP memorable, great. If there is a character > > whose death would allow other characters to change or grow in an > > interesting way, super. > > > > Are there any theories out there about which death would > > really "enhance" OoP? > > >At first, I thought this question would be easy for me. I figured >I'd just say Hagrid, because as I've said before, he and his pink >umbrella may have outlived their usefulness. > >But then again, Hagrid's death wouldn't have any emotional impact for >me. If Hagrid's death makes me say "Thank goodness!" instead of "Oh, >no!", then maybe Hagrid wouldn't be the best choice. > >So what character would I be willing to sacrifice to move the story >along and open up new vistas for the other characters? I could say >Lupin because it would be so tragic, but Harry's life wouldn't change >a whole lot if Lupin died. After all, Lupin wasn't even in GoF, and >Harry did just fine. The relationships among the remaining >characters might not change at all following Lupin's demise. > >Maybe that means I'd have to recommend Sirius as the most meaningful >potential death (although I'd really miss him). It's hard to say >that, though, because I haven't had nearly enough of Sirius yet. He >has had only a few short scenes and he stars in Padfoot returns, so >it would be a shame to dispatch him before he really gets to be >pivotal in a future book. So after all that rambling, I guess I'd >have to say Sirius (but not until the last 50 pages of OoP). > >Cindy (wondering if she can also kill Lockhart, just for fun) > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 19 23:33:26 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011019233326.47763.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27976 you may be right but i am still not sure i think that magic is magic reguardless of the caster. i think that the strength that matters is the strength of the subject. --- andrea mcpherson talia chambers wrote: > The initiative may be more important than the power > because for Voldy making > Harry bow to him was fun and games. However > resisting this was very vital to > Harry.Perhaps since Harry cared more about the > situation he managed to hold > it of some?So perhaps this theory PLUS Cindy's > theory would make sense? From > Andrea (newmember) > > > >From: scott chatten > >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The > Imperious Curse > >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) > > > >I have a little bit of a problem with that. Granted > >that Crouch Jr. Was weaker than his father. He does > >say something that strikes me. In GOF (the > >unforgivable curses) page 217 he says after casting > >the killing curse. > > > >"Avada Dedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit > of > >mayic behind it --- you could all get your wands > out > >now and point them at me and say the words, and i > >doubt i'd get so much as a nosebleed." > > > >This says to me gee scott this guy must be pretty > >powerful to be able to cast an unblockable curse > that > >kills on target. Much less get Viktor Krum (a > seventh > >year from a school which concentrates heavily on > the > >dark arts) to fall to the imperius curse and then > cast > >the cruciatus curse on a fellow student (i firmly > >believe that krum was trying to fight that hard). > >Based on this fact i dont think that the imperius > >curse is something that can just be routinely cast > by > >a wizard of diminished power of any sort. Simply > >because the battle of minds that the caster has to > >employ would be no small thing. (although JKR never > >gives us a look at the imperius curse from the > casters > >point of view) and there for it still stands. Why > >wouldn't young mr. crouch be just a little more > >apprehensive about the fact the harry could fight > it > >the very first time it was cast on him. You would > >think that after his master's downfall that the > death > >eaters and their master would be just a little more > >cautious about their actions. (and weaknesses) I > think > >the dark lord hasn't exactly done his homework. > > > > > >Scott > >--- "Cindy C." wrote: > > > Scott wrote: > > > > what i amd wondering in concern to the whole > > > ordeal is > > > > not only why you young Mr. Crouch gave the > > > practice to > > > > Harry but also why is it that he didn't let > > > > he-who-must-not-be-named know of the threat? > > > > > > Lucy wrote:> > > > > > > > > The thing that really gets me, is WHY does > > > > > Crouch/Moody teach Harry how to throw off > the > > > > > Imperious Curse? He already knows Harry is > very > > > > > unusual, and plans to give him to Voldemort > to > > > kill, > > > > > so why on earth does he give him all that > extra > > > > > practice in that class to give Harry another > > > weapon > > > > > to use??? > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Scott and Lucy, > > > > > > At the very real risk that this has been > discussed > > > before, I had a > > > thought. I have always thought the reason > > > Crouch/Moody teaches Harry > > > how to resist the Imperio curse is because > > > Dumbledore asked him to, > > > or he thinks he needs to do it to stay "in > > > character." I also > > > figured that Crouch/Moody wouldn't bother to > tell > > > Voldemort because > > > Imperio isn't a crucial component of Voldemort's > > > plan to kill Harry. > > > > > > But how about this theory instead? Maybe the > > > Imperio Curse is only > > > as strong as the wizard casting it. If so, then > > > Crouch/Moody > > > wouldn't need to worry about teaching Harry how > to > > > throw it off or > > > worry about telling Voldemort. Voldemort is > much > > > more powerful than > > > Crouch/Moody, so even if Harry can resist > > > Crouch/Moody's Imperio, > > > Harry won't necessarily stand a chance of > resisting > > > Voldemort's > > > Imperio. Should the day ever come (as it did) > that > > > Voldemort would > > > need to put Harry under the Imperio Curse, then > the > > > training Harry > > > received from Crouch/Moody still wouldn't be a > > > threat to Voldemort. > > > So there'd be no reason for Crouch/Moody even to > > > tell Voldemort about > > > the training, as it is unimportant. > > > > > > There is a teaspoon of canon to support this > idea > > > that the Imperio > > > curse is only as strong as the wizard casting > it. > > > Presumably, > > > Wormtail places Crouch Sr. under the Imperius > Curse, > > > and Crouch Sr. > > > is able to throw it off, and we know Wormtail is > a > > > "talentless thing" > > > (according to Sirius). Also, we are told by > > > Karkarov that > > > Mulciber "specializes" in the Imperius Curse, > which > > > suggests that > > > there is some benefit from having your Imperius > > > specialist place the > > > curse on someone rather than having someone less > > > skilled or powerful > > > do it. > > > > > > Also, consider how long it takes various wizards > to > > > cast off the > > > Imperius curse cast by various wizards. Crouch > Sr. > > > (powerful wizard) > > > is able to cast off Wormtail's (talentless > wizard) > > > Imperius Curse in > > > a few months. Crouch Jr. (competent wizard) > takes > > > years to throw off > > > Crouch Sr.'s (powerful wizard) Imperius curse. > > > Crouch Jr. (competent > > > wizard) doesn't take chances and rely only on > the > > > Imperius curse to > > > control the real Moody (powerful wizard); he > stuns > > > him too. > > > > > > Of course, if this theory holds, then it is > proof > > > positive that Harry > > > is stronger than Voldemort, because he threw off > > > Voldemort's Imperius > > > curse in seconds. > > > > > > Does this theory add up? > > > > > > Cindy (as Bagman would say, "this should shorten > the > > > odds on Mr. > > > Potter") > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of > Lord > > > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we > are > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From retaksbor at home.com Fri Oct 19 23:34:43 2001 From: retaksbor at home.com (retaksbor at home.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:34:43 -0000 Subject: Question about Book Four In-Reply-To: <9qqa2o+33jr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qqdaj+p55p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27977 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., r_vonbickel at y... wrote: > Hello-- > > I was wondering if someone could explain something that doesn' make any sense > to me. In the beginning of Book Four it says that all three Riddles are found dead, > including the teenage son, Tom, i.e. Voldemort. I still can't fingure out how this > can be the case. Did he stage his own death? Where is this ever explained? All three Riddles were killed. The three Riddles were Voldemort's father and grandparents. "Elderly Mr. and Mrs. Riddle had been rich, snobbish, and rude, and their grownup son Tom, had been, if anything, worse." (GoF 1) Voldemort never lived in that manor as we learn in CoS he spent his summers at the orphanage. Voldemort simply came back to kill them for abandoning his mom when they found out she was a witch From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com Sat Oct 20 00:21:53 2001 From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:21:53 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's descendants...and Dumbledore's truthfulness In-Reply-To: <3BD09B31.3030101@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9qqg31+6728@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27978 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > VOLDEMORT RELATED TO HARRY? I see that the old "Voldemort is > related to Harry" theories are starting up again. :--) > > Aside from the fact that JKR has said in a chat that this would > be "too Star Wars-ish," which all but confirms that Voldie is *not* > related to Harry, there are genealogical problems with the theory > too. Dumbledore says that Voldemort is the *last* remaining > descendant of Slytherin. If true, Voldemort has no descendants. > None. I'm glad you put that little "if true" disclaimer in there, because I've seen many people get led onto the track of believing in an infallible Dumbledore. I know many of us don't want to believe that he could be lying to Harry, but I tend to question a lot of the things he says. Does he know that Tom Marvolo Riddle has no children? How would he know that? Besides, what JKR said in that chat doesn't really exclude the Potters from being related to whatever family Riddle's mother is from somewhere along the line, not to mention the Evanses possibly being related to the Riddles. (That one's a bit far-fetched though.) Speaking of other Dumbledore statements I'm a bit iffy about, I've always had issues with the reasons given for the Snape/Potter rivalry in book 1. It sort of fits with things Sirius and Lupin have said in later books, but there are pieces missing. Once again, how would Dumbledore know? I don't see Snape coming out and saying stuff like that, even to the most important person in his life. Dumbledore's quite a bit deeper than people give him credit for, and I can't shake the feeling he's hiding something. I don't have my copy of PoA handy, but there were some lines of dialogue after the escape of Black that got me wondering. Meril From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 00:29:14 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's descendants...and Dumbledore's truthfulness In-Reply-To: <9qqg31+6728@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011020002914.55899.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27979 well if dumbledore is concealing the fact that he (like everyone else with a deep dark secret it seems) is an animagus, i would suppose it would make perfect sense then wouldn't it??? but i mean there is no basis other than what his name was derived from so dont expect me to find any grounds for that theory. it would just be the easy escape route for JKR. Scott --- lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce > wrote: > > VOLDEMORT RELATED TO HARRY? I see that the old > "Voldemort is > > related to Harry" theories are starting up again. > :--) > > > > Aside from the fact that JKR has said in a chat > that this would > > be "too Star Wars-ish," which all but confirms > that Voldie is *not* > > related to Harry, there are genealogical problems > with the theory > > too. Dumbledore says that Voldemort is the *last* > remaining > > descendant of Slytherin. If true, Voldemort has > no descendants. > > None. > > I'm glad you put that little "if true" disclaimer in > there, because > I've seen many people get led onto the track of > believing in an > infallible Dumbledore. I know many of us don't want > to believe that > he could be lying to Harry, but I tend to question a > lot of the > things he says. > > Does he know that Tom Marvolo Riddle has no > children? How would he > know that? Besides, what JKR said in that chat > doesn't really exclude > the Potters from being related to whatever family > Riddle's mother is > from somewhere along the line, not to mention the > Evanses possibly > being related to the Riddles. (That one's a bit > far-fetched though.) > > Speaking of other Dumbledore statements I'm a bit > iffy about, I've > always had issues with the reasons given for the > Snape/Potter rivalry > in book 1. It sort of fits with things Sirius and > Lupin have said in > later books, but there are pieces missing. Once > again, how would > Dumbledore know? I don't see Snape coming out and > saying stuff like > that, even to the most important person in his life. > > Dumbledore's quite a bit deeper than people give him > credit for, and > I can't shake the feeling he's hiding something. I > don't have my copy > of PoA handy, but there were some lines of dialogue > after the escape > of Black that got me wondering. > > Meril > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 00:40:30 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about Book Four (the Riddles) In-Reply-To: <9qqa2o+33jr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011020004030.6820.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27980 --- r_vonbickel at yahoo.com wrote: > I was wondering if someone could explain something > that doesn' make any sense > to me. In the beginning of Book Four it says that > all three Riddles are found dead, > including the teenage son, Tom, i.e. Voldemort. I > still can't fingure out how this > can be the case. Did he stage his own death? Where > is this ever explained? Remember Voldemort was named after his father. The Tom Riddle killed in this chapter is Tom Sr., Voldie's father. The elder Riddles are his grandparents. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Oct 20 01:00:34 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:00:34 -0000 Subject: Dudley vs Draco In-Reply-To: <13.616e5e.2901df92@aol.com> Message-ID: <9qqibi+fmrg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27981 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: Wow. I couldn't disagree more. >For example, Dudley is portrayed as a bully, not only of Harry, but other kids with his gang... > its not only Mr. Dursley's dislike of Harry which causes the bullying, its something in Dudley whih makes him dislike Harry.> Dudley learned at home that it was okay to treat others badly. Dudley is spoiled to the point that he clearly does not know right from wrong. What he has learned is that if he cries loud enough or hits hard enough he will get what he wants. JKR has made it very clear to us that he learned these things from his parents, who are themselves materialistic, impatient, and narrow minded. Uncle Vernon is vicious to Harry; Dudley has been seeing that since they were both babies. Every single behavior Dudley displays has been learned at home. On Draco: >He's out of the house in a place where his father holds very little sway, b/c of Lucius's relationship with Dumbledore, and he does not change. He has the opportunity to learn new things and interact with others in a way that could overcome whatever racism he learned at home. But this is not the case. He goes out of his way to stay the way he is. > Draco is very clearly proud of his father and his ability to affect things as a powerful figure and brags about it a number of times. In fact, he contacts his father a number of times in the canon to tell him of events happening in the school so his father can act on them (the blast eared skrewts, for example or Buckbeak). In addition, in a conversation with Harry, which has no way of returning to his father, Draco is elated at the return of Voldemort. This is not a kid who is doing things to impress his father or to forestall his father's wrath. He's simply a bad kid.> How is it possible that Draco is "simply a bad kid" without any input from his parents? I think the same arguments apply to Draco. His father gives him what he wants and is a DE who flaunts it at home. He is TEACHING hate to his son. Draco has learned that living the good life is living the mean life. I don't see Draco as going "out of his way to stay the way he is", I see him as depending on his father for all the answers. Dad likes it that way, too. However, I don't see Draco or Dudley, for that matter, as just bad kids. I see them both as victims of the parents who are raising them. Dudley is as abused as Harry; overindulgence can be just as damaging as neglect. Draco's father is not teaching his son to stand on his own. Both of these boys have had little choice so far in their lives because they have yet to be in situations (like Harry) where they can really question how they were raised and if their parents were doing the right and good thing in raising them. I think it's admirable that you learned at a young age to not follow your parents' view on race. Most children, unfortunately, do not take a step back and do what you did. Kids whose parents hit them or each other grow up to hit their own kids or be in abusive relationships themselves. The statistics are sadly overwhelming. Draco and Dudley may eventually have changes of heart, but they are now quite young and blissfully happy in their situations. They both believe they are well loved by their parents because they are mistaking their material rewards for love. That's a pretty big lure (I've been there; I know). Something drastic will have to happen for either of them to see their parents for who they really are. --jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks our parents have EVERYTHING to do with who we are ******* From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 01:19:28 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:19:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27982 Hi it's me again.On the lexicon there is an essay on magical theory and I thought it would be helpful to this issue. It explains three points of magic something like want, focus of mind ,focus of power written by Steve Vanderark.(sp?) Anyways it's very thought provoking and would definetly be useful in this strength vs. intiative debate. Why don't you give it a glimpse at http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/magic_theory6.html It's sheer brillance!! Anyways after you read it would you reply with input? I'm really curious of others' opinions! Thanx, Andrea >From: scott chatten >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The Imperious Curse >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:33:26 -0700 (PDT) > >you may be right but i am still not sure i think that >magic is magic reguardless of the caster. i think that >the strength that matters is the strength of the >subject. >--- andrea mcpherson talia chambers > wrote: > > The initiative may be more important than the power > > because for Voldy making > > Harry bow to him was fun and games. However > > resisting this was very vital to > > Harry.Perhaps since Harry cared more about the > > situation he managed to hold > > it of some?So perhaps this theory PLUS Cindy's > > theory would make sense? From > > Andrea (newmember) > > > > > > >From: scott chatten > > >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > > >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Resisting The > > Imperious Curse > > >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >I have a little bit of a problem with that. Granted > > >that Crouch Jr. Was weaker than his father. He does > > >say something that strikes me. In GOF (the > > >unforgivable curses) page 217 he says after casting > > >the killing curse. > > > > > >"Avada Dedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit > > of > > >mayic behind it --- you could all get your wands > > out > > >now and point them at me and say the words, and i > > >doubt i'd get so much as a nosebleed." > > > > > >This says to me gee scott this guy must be pretty > > >powerful to be able to cast an unblockable curse > > that > > >kills on target. Much less get Viktor Krum (a > > seventh > > >year from a school which concentrates heavily on > > the > > >dark arts) to fall to the imperius curse and then > > cast > > >the cruciatus curse on a fellow student (i firmly > > >believe that krum was trying to fight that hard). > > >Based on this fact i dont think that the imperius > > >curse is something that can just be routinely cast > > by > > >a wizard of diminished power of any sort. Simply > > >because the battle of minds that the caster has to > > >employ would be no small thing. (although JKR never > > >gives us a look at the imperius curse from the > > casters > > >point of view) and there for it still stands. Why > > >wouldn't young mr. crouch be just a little more > > >apprehensive about the fact the harry could fight > > it > > >the very first time it was cast on him. You would > > >think that after his master's downfall that the > > death > > >eaters and their master would be just a little more > > >cautious about their actions. (and weaknesses) I > > think > > >the dark lord hasn't exactly done his homework. > > > > > > > > >Scott > > >--- "Cindy C." wrote: > > > > Scott wrote: > > > > > what i amd wondering in concern to the whole > > > > ordeal is > > > > > not only why you young Mr. Crouch gave the > > > > practice to > > > > > Harry but also why is it that he didn't let > > > > > he-who-must-not-be-named know of the threat? > > > > > > > > Lucy wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > The thing that really gets me, is WHY does > > > > > > Crouch/Moody teach Harry how to throw off > > the > > > > > > Imperious Curse? He already knows Harry is > > very > > > > > > unusual, and plans to give him to Voldemort > > to > > > > kill, > > > > > > so why on earth does he give him all that > > extra > > > > > > practice in that class to give Harry another > > > > weapon > > > > > > to use??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Scott and Lucy, > > > > > > > > At the very real risk that this has been > > discussed > > > > before, I had a > > > > thought. I have always thought the reason > > > > Crouch/Moody teaches Harry > > > > how to resist the Imperio curse is because > > > > Dumbledore asked him to, > > > > or he thinks he needs to do it to stay "in > > > > character." I also > > > > figured that Crouch/Moody wouldn't bother to > > tell > > > > Voldemort because > > > > Imperio isn't a crucial component of Voldemort's > > > > plan to kill Harry. > > > > > > > > But how about this theory instead? Maybe the > > > > Imperio Curse is only > > > > as strong as the wizard casting it. If so, then > > > > Crouch/Moody > > > > wouldn't need to worry about teaching Harry how > > to > > > > throw it off or > > > > worry about telling Voldemort. Voldemort is > > much > > > > more powerful than > > > > Crouch/Moody, so even if Harry can resist > > > > Crouch/Moody's Imperio, > > > > Harry won't necessarily stand a chance of > > resisting > > > > Voldemort's > > > > Imperio. Should the day ever come (as it did) > > that > > > > Voldemort would > > > > need to put Harry under the Imperio Curse, then > > the > > > > training Harry > > > > received from Crouch/Moody still wouldn't be a > > > > threat to Voldemort. > > > > So there'd be no reason for Crouch/Moody even to > > > > tell Voldemort about > > > > the training, as it is unimportant. > > > > > > > > There is a teaspoon of canon to support this > > idea > > > > that the Imperio > > > > curse is only as strong as the wizard casting > > it. > > > > Presumably, > > > > Wormtail places Crouch Sr. under the Imperius > > Curse, > > > > and Crouch Sr. > > > > is able to throw it off, and we know Wormtail is > > a > > > > "talentless thing" > > > > (according to Sirius). Also, we are told by > > > > Karkarov that > > > > Mulciber "specializes" in the Imperius Curse, > > which > > > > suggests that > > > > there is some benefit from having your Imperius > > > > specialist place the > > > > curse on someone rather than having someone less > > > > skilled or powerful > > > > do it. > > > > > > > > Also, consider how long it takes various wizards > > to > > > > cast off the > > > > Imperius curse cast by various wizards. Crouch > > Sr. > > > > (powerful wizard) > > > > is able to cast off Wormtail's (talentless > > wizard) > > > > Imperius Curse in > > > > a few months. Crouch Jr. (competent wizard) > > takes > > > > years to throw off > > > > Crouch Sr.'s (powerful wizard) Imperius curse. > > > > Crouch Jr. (competent > > > > wizard) doesn't take chances and rely only on > > the > > > > Imperius curse to > > > > control the real Moody (powerful wizard); he > > stuns > > > > him too. > > > > > > > > Of course, if this theory holds, then it is > > proof > > > > positive that Harry > > > > is stronger than Voldemort, because he threw off > > > > Voldemort's Imperius > > > > curse in seconds. > > > > > > > > Does this theory add up? > > > > > > > > Cindy (as Bagman would say, "this should shorten > > the > > > > odds on Mr. > > > > Potter") > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of > > Lord > > > > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we > > are > > >=== message truncated === > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 01:23:39 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:23:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The old crowd Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27983 Perhaps it is just IFFY. >From: scott chatten >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The old crowd >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:31:44 -0700 (PDT) > >If that is indeed the case than why would he ask >Sirius to notify them in the first place???? > > >--- lisa palmer wrote: > > > > > > "Cindy C." wrote: > > Scott wrote: > > > > [Dumbledore] says, "Now i have work for each of you. > > Fudge's > > attitude, > > > though not unexpected, changes everything. Sirius, > > I need you to > > set > > > off at once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, > > Arabella Figg, Mudungus > > > Fletcher --- the old crowd. Lie low at Lupin's for > > a while; I will > > > contact you there." I know that Lupin is cool and > > all but i am a > > bit > > > concerned that we just dont know enough about > > these other > > characters > > > to assume that they will not say something along > > the lines of OH MY > > > GOD!!! IT'S SIRIUS BLACK!!! STUPIFY!!! and then > > immediately call > > the > > > ministry. > > > > Good Point! Hopefully, Sirius will check in with > > Lupin first and > > send an owl to the members of the old crowd rather > > than just turn up > > on their doorsteps. Or he can have Lupin handle any > > personal contact > > that needs to happen. Sirius should know he can't > > risk being seen in > > his non-canine state until his name is cleared or > > until Dumbledore > > expressly tells him to. > > > > Cindy > > > > > > If the "old Crowd" is a tight nit group of > > Dumbledore's, then he might have kept them up to > > speed with Sirius Black and Harry. This group is > > sure to trust Dumbledore's word, I don't se a reason > > why Dumbledore would continue to hide the reality of > > events from them. > > > > Lisa > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > > united, as weak as we are divided. > > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > > trust. Differences of habit and language are > > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > > hearts are open." > > > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > > Files! > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > > > Unsubscribing? Email > > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > > united, as weak as we are divided. > > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > > trust. Differences of habit and language are > > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > > hearts are open." > > > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > > Files! > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > > > Unsubscribing? Email > > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 02:50:49 2001 From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 02:50:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's descendants...and Dumbledore's truthfulness In-Reply-To: <20011020002914.55899.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qqoq9+s2tt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27984 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., scott chatten wrote: > well if dumbledore is concealing the fact that he > (like everyone else with a deep dark secret it seems) > is an animagus, i would suppose it would make perfect > sense then wouldn't it??? but i mean there is no basis > other than what his name was derived from so dont > expect me to find any grounds for that theory. it > would just be the easy escape route for JKR. > > Scott Whaaat? What does whether or not Dumbledore is an animagus have to do with anything? Also, the idea that he's a bumblebee simply because that's what his name translates as is a little . . . unbelievable. To me, anyway. Bumblebees are kinda interesting but they are not powerful, and I think Dumbledore would have a much more intelligent, powerful animagus. I think what his name means is that he's gentle on the outside -- after all, bees are kinda pretty and round and fuzzy -- but you better watch out for his sting. I do agree with whoever said that he's deeper than people give him credit for. If JKR makes Voldemort Harry's father/uncle/grandfather/ANYTHING I will be very upset. That would be very uncreative and stolen right out of Star Wars. And every fan who ever spent time thinking about it would have thought of it already. That said, I do not think Dumbledore is all-knowning. That would make him the canon equivalent of a Mary Sue. Stacy (delurking briefly and ducking the furniture flying around as her roommates rearrange their furniture) From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 20 04:12:18 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:12:18 -0000 Subject: That Willow (filk) Message-ID: <9qqtj2+obsn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27985 That Willow (To the tune of Tit-willow, from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Mikado) Dedicated to Rita Winston THE SCENE: Gryffindor Hall. HARRY, with NEVILLE as backup, describes his least-favorite member of the botanical kingdom HARRY & (NEVILLE) When Lupin came to Hogwarts they first planted it That willow (what willow?) that willow And to protect his secret they enchanted it Whomping Willow (what willow?) that willow But once Remus had earned his NEWTS, there was no need To continue to nurture that overgrown weed I think Filch should have defied the tree-hugger's creed That willow (whose willow?) that willow When I flew in with Ron on a flubberized Ford Whomping Willow (what willow?) that willow That tree tried to annihilate each boy on board That willow (those willows?) that willow When we flew against Hufflepuff in a big game And a swarm of dementors unwelcoming came Soon my Nimbus 2000 in toothpicks became That willow (your willow?) that willow Now, this tree with its branches could knock us down flat That willow (some willow?) that willow To quiet its fervor takes a cat or a rat That willow (what willow?) that willow Mister Black my godfather forever I'll thank If he transforms into a hound graceful and lank And upon that tree lifts up one of his hind flanks That willow (that willow?) that willow - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 20 04:17:59 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:17:59 -0000 Subject: I Ride With Prongs (filk) Message-ID: <9qqttn+5uil@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27986 I Ride With Prongs (from PoA, Chap. 22) (To the tune of I Write the Songs) Dedicated to Joywitch THE SCENE: The DADA office. HARRY shares with DUMBLEDORE the extraordinary events of the previous evening HARRY I'm still alive, however, and it is all due to Prongs I used the words I learned, Expecto Patronum I am his son and I ride with Prongs I conjured Prongs who made dementors flee I saved from their dread kiss Black, Hermy and me I met my dad and made each reader cry I rode with Prongs, I rode with Prongs DUMBLEDORE Yes, James is deep within you And he's got his own place in your soul He'll never leave you while you're alive He lives again, even though he's long gone HARRY I conjured Prongs who drove dementors back I got my payback for all of their flashbacks I saw my deer old dad whose love still abides I ride with Prongs, I ride with Prongs BOTH Oh, the magic is advanced Which brought James' spirit that you/I saw prance He cantered bright as day by the light of the moon When you/I turned the time It turned you/me toward this moment sublime It's from him, it's for you/me It means he'll yet stand by It's the gift of the Animagi HARRY I traveled back in time for a mere three hours I there found a strength that can never cower I called inside myself to bring out my dad BOTH I/You ride with Prongs, I/You ride with Prongs - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 04:53:49 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:53:49 -0400 Subject: Potions: That Subtle Science Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27987 The following is the Potions class sketch scheduled for this week. Whenever possible, I made references to the books in the form of (Book PageNumber). All page numbers are from the First American Edition printing. I must say I'm a tad sad that practically nobody has responded to my chapter summaries. I'm hoping that this sketch will provide more of a response or else I just spent 2-3 hours on it for nothing (although I did enjoy writing it). Heck, even if the response is just "What? You know nothing about Potions? Let me point out all the places where you are dead wrong!", I would be happy. I would know that someone read it! Feel free to expand upon what I have developed or ask questions that you come up with. ----------------------------- Potions: That Subtle Science You are here to learn the subtle science and exact art of potion-making, he began. He spoke in barely more than a whisper, but they caught every word like Professor McGonagall, Snape had the gift of keeping a class silent without effort. As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I dont expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through the human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the sensesI can teach you to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death (PS/SS 136 137) *pauses for the swooning of several Snapefans* And with that auspicious first speech, we are introduced to the class of Potions. From the beginning, Professor Snape makes it clear that Potions is a class like no other. It is a magic that requires patience, diligence, time, and talent. It is not simply just flinging ingredients into a cauldron; one has to prepare the ingredients correctly, add them at the right time and way, stir correctly, and allow to simmer for the correct amount of time. Potions class takes place in the Hogwarts dungeons. The room is set up with twenty cauldrons between wooden desks; students place their supplies on the desks (COS 186). Quite handily, there is a stone basin in corner with faucet as gargoyles mouth (POA 127) for students to use to clean themselves or their workstations up. There is also a blackboard in the classroom, as Snape writes ingredients for the current days potion upon it (GOF 511). It is described as being colder than the rest of the castle and Snape has decorated it with strange potions and animals floating in glass jars on the walls (SS 136). A Double Potions class lasts approximately an hour and a half (GOF 297). Some examples of ingredients that are found in potions are dried nettles, snake fangs, daisy roots, rat spleens, and armadillo bile (Oh, ugh!). The students also learn a dizzying array of potions from Swelling Solutions to Wit Sharpening Potions (now thats a potion that I would like to have!). To find an extensive list of all potions and ingredients listed thus far in the books (even the preparation process for some), go to Steve Vander Arks Lexicon here: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/potions.html There also seems to be several classes of potions: regular potions, draughts, drafts, solutions, poisons, antidotes, and concoctions. While poisons and antidotes are rather obvious, the distinction between potions, drafts, draughts, solutions, and concoctions dont seem to be entirely clear. In fact, there may be no obvious distinction. The following is a list of supplies used in and out of Potions class: 1) Magical Drafts and Potions by Arsenius Jigger (SS 66) 2) One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi by Phyllida Spore - probably used more in Herbology but can have purpose in Potions (SS 66) 3) One pair of protective gloves (dragon hide or similar) (SS 66) 4) One cauldron (pewter, standard size 2) - of which Neville seems to have an absolute gift for melting! (SS 66) 5) One set glass or crystal phials (SS 66) 6) One set brass scales (SS 66) 7) Moste Potente Potions by Unknown(COS 160) 8) Knife (POA 124) 9) Potion-making kit - undefined what this exactly is; could just be another name for all the phials, ingredients and scales together (GOF 155) 10) Mortar and Pestle (GOF 513) >From what we have seen of Potions class, we have learned some important rules: 1) The order in which the ingredients are added to a potion is very important. The wrong order could destroy the potion, create a different potion, render the potion useless, or cause the potion to explode. 2) One must follow the potion-making instructions to the exact letter. Ex: Idiot boy! snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away with a wave of his wand. I suppose you added the porcupine quills before taking the cauldron off the fire? (SS 139) 3) Ingredients must be prepared carefully. Ex: Ron had spent the last quarter of an hour carefully shredding his own roots into exactly equal pieces. (POA 124) 4) Color and consistency of potion matters and must be watched. Ex: When Nevilles Shrinking Solution was supposed to be a bright, acid green when it had turned out orange (POA 125) Harrys potion needed to thicken (POA 318) 5) Some potions seem to need time to stew and simmer. Ex: You should have finished adding your ingredients by now; this potions needs to stew before it can be drunk (POA 127) Potions class does have homework; however, I don't think we ever know the nature of it (please, someone correct me if I'm wrong). Possible homework ideas may be writing essays on the merits of a particular potion or possible applications of a potion. While it may seem on the surface that potions arent used often in the wizarding world, this is untrue. There are many notable instances where potions come in handy. The most obvious are the ubiquitous Polyjuice potion which has shown its use time and time again, the potion used to cure the Petrified students, the Wolfsbane Potion that Lupin uses to become a tame wolf when he changes, the potion used to restore Voldemorts body, and Veritaserum. All have been influential in the various plots. While potions arent used as often as spells, they clearly have their place in the wizarding world. I would not be surprised at all if potions play an important part in the following books. In fact, I would be disappointed if it didnt! Questions: 1) Ive asked this before, but I thought Id ask it again. Besides the magical quality of the ingredients themselves, there doesnt seem to be any overt magic used in the making of a potion. Do you think that if a Muggle were to prepare a potion correctly, it would work? If not, why not? 2) What is the difference between a potion, draft, draught, solution, and concoction? Or is there no distinction and they are simply arbitrary names? (I wouldnt know, I struggled quite a bit in chemistry class in school!) 3) Why do you think Snape is so good at Potions? Does it fit his personality? 4) It should be noted the Madam Pomfrey uses Potions as well (Pepperup Potion); do you think these are drastically different from the kind that Snape prepares? Do you think Snape could prepare health potions or does it demand extra training? Is this a silly question? 5) Would you personally enjoy Potions class? Forget about controversial Snape for the moment, what about the actual class itself? 6)Fun Question: If you could make up a potion, what would be its name, what would it do, and what ingredients would go into it? ~Amber (Please, please, please, please, please, someone respond!) ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Do you think you can cope? You figured me out - I'm lost and I'm hopeless Bleeding and broken - though I've never spoken I come undone - in this mad season" - Matchbox 20, "Mad Season" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 05:03:52 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rita Skeeter Question In-Reply-To: <9qnfhe+6giv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011020050352.30429.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27988 I also questioned this... however, I think this goes back to the whole POV issue. How can we be sure that Hermonie hadn't got to Dumbledore and that all of this is part of his plan to help confuse Vol with false info. I trust Hermonie would know not to do something that could cause so many problems... she is such a do gooder and .... well I just can't see her not allowing Dumbledore to know about Rita. Sorry soo late getting back to this topic... life has been very busy!!! Laura __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From jennifer.k at lycos.com Sat Oct 20 07:13:40 2001 From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (Jennifer) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 07:13:40 -0000 Subject: lexicon question (Dean Thomas) Message-ID: <9qr874+7g29@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27989 I was reading in the Lexicon and found this line: Dean Thomas: "...a Black boy, even taller than Ron (SS..." When in the books is it said that he is tall? I've tried to find it but I couldn't. I'm pretty intested in Dean :) /Jennifer From catlady at wicca.net Sat Oct 20 09:00:31 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:00:31 -0000 Subject: blond/murder-Lily/Phoenix/Gray Lady/Prefect/Potions/Ron Message-ID: <9qreff+pu2a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27990 Doseylel wrote: > 1. Has it occurred to anyone out there that all of the blond > characters in the books are antagonists? Petunia, Dudley, Draco > and his mother, Lockhart, Rita Skeeter (younger, in the pensieve), > the veelas (including Fleur). I don't recall any of the good guys > as being blond. Just curious. Yes, JKR is so repetitive about making bad guys blond (not all the bad guys are blond, but NONE of the good guys are) that I suspect that her ex-husband was blond. I don't consider Fleur to be a bad guy even tho' she is very annoying but I don't consider her to be a good guy, either. You left out Pansy Parkinson being blonde. fourfuries wrote: > Even He knows murder is wrong. It is distasteful, and wasteful. > It eliminates wizards who would otherwise be available to worship > or fear him. Counter-example: Cedric. "Kill the spare" without even a moment's thought. Killed without even ONE attempt to recruit him. Never mind the utter callousness: it was WASTEFUL. A young man from an old Pureblood family, talented enough to be a Triwizard Champion, handsome and popular: surely he would be quite a valuable asset if recruited: surely worth at least 30 seconds of recruiting effort! Dorothy wrote: > Only one phoenix lives at a time. It dies and a new one rises from > its ashes. That is the ancient tradition known to us Muggles, but FANTASTIC BEASTS doesn't say that there is only one Phoenix at a time, so maybe that is not the case in the Potterverse. OTOH, FB doesn't say that there IS more than one Phoenix at a time.... It says the Phoenix "lives to an immense age as it can regenerate" by bursting into flames etc. It doesn't say the Phoenix is immortal. Dorothy also asked after the Grey Lady. She appears in the chapter of Book 1 where Harry takes Ron to see the Mirror of Erised: "They passed the ghost of a tall witch gliding in the opposite direction, but saw no one else. just as Ron started moaning that his feet were dead with cold, Harry spotted the suit of armor." Andrea wrote: > Perhaps Cho Chang will become a prefect if it isn't Hermione. > That might build her as a character. I get the impression that whether or not Cho becomes a Ravenclaw prefect doesn't affect whether Hermione becomes a Gryffindor prefect. Anyway, Cho is a year ahead of Harry so she should be a fifth year in GoF, so shouldn't she be a prefect already then? Caius Marcius Coriolanus wrote: > That Willow > Dedicated to Rita Winston Me! Me! Me! Meow! I'm so excited! thnx Invizible Amber? girl wrote: > I must say I'm a tad sad that practically nobody has responded > to my chapter summaries. Meow! I read them! I liked them! I have trouble thinking of things to say at 1:40 in the morning... > 1) I've asked this before, but I thought I'd ask it again. Besides > the magical quality of the ingredients themselves, there doesn't > seem to be any overt magic used in the making of a potion. Do you > think that if a Muggle were to prepare a potion correctly, it would > work? If not, why not? I am convinced that if a Muggle followed all the right instructions for making a potion, using all the right ingredients including pieces of magical beasts and plants, they would come out with a stinky mud colored mess that might be poisonous but would not be have any magical effect. Because I am convinced that the way that the potion does magic (shrinking or age-reversing Neville's toad, making Harry and Ron into replicas of Crabbe and Goyle) is a spell made by the magical person brewing the potion. > 2) What is the difference between a potion, draft, draught, > solution, and concoction? Or is there no distinction and they are > simply arbitrary names? (I wouldn't know, I struggled quite a bit > in chemistry class in school!) 'Draft' and 'draught' are two spellings of the same word (pronounced 'draft') so it would be weird if they meant different things. > 4) It should be noted the Madam Pomfrey uses Potions as well > (Pepperup Potion); do you think these are drastically different > from the kind that Snape prepares? Do you think Snape could prepare > "health' potions or does it demand extra training? Is this a silly > question? Of course. No, not 'of course' it's silly! 'Of course' Snape can make medimagical potions! I don't think there is any systematic difference between medimagical potions and non-medimagical potions. I wonder if medimages (like Madam Pomfrey) have to make any of their own potions, or if they always use potions made by specialists, such as apothecaries? > 5) Would you personally enjoy Potions class? Forget about > controversial Snape for the moment, what about the actual class > itself? Oh, I'd HATE it. Same as I hated Chem labs despite my enjoyment of the lecture and paper part of the class and same as I hate cooking. Being terribly neat and careful is NOT part of my personality. Even my fetal pig dissection was sloppy. I like things, like COBOL and knitting, where sloppiness doesn't ruin it. > 6)Fun Question: If you could make up a potion, what would be its > name, what would it do, and what ingredients would go into it? If I were a good person, I would mumble something about curing AIDS, Alzheimer's Disease, or bigotry, but actually I think more about weight loss, wrinkle remover, and other cosmetic potions. Jennifer asked: > When in the books is it said that he is tall? I've tried to find it > but I couldn't. I'm pretty intested in Dean :) While they are being Sorted in Book 1, "And now there were only three people left to be sorted. "Thomas, Dean," a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table." That is from the American edition. I have heard that the British edition mentions that he is tall but not that he is black? From jennifer.k at lycos.com Sat Oct 20 10:04:11 2001 From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (Jennifer) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 10:04:11 -0000 Subject: Dean Thomas In-Reply-To: <9qreff+pu2a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qri6r+cfrm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27991 I asked: > > When in the books is it said that he is tall? I've tried to find it but I couldn't. I'm pretty intested in Dean :) "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" answered: > While they are being Sorted in Book 1, "And now there were only three people left to be sorted. "Thomas, Dean," a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table." > That is from the American edition. I have heard that the British > edition mentions that he is tall but not that he is black? Oh. Odd. In my swedish translation they don't mentione Dean at all during that moment. Only three people are left to be sorted, it's said - Lisa Turpin gets to be a Ravenclaw, Ron (to his great relief) is a Gryffindor, and it ends with Blaise Zambini being sorted a Slytherin. No sight of Dean. I think I've seen something about this discussed before...wasn't it an error in Philospoher's Stone, three people is said to be left but four are sorted? Maybe the swedish translator simply changed it as she though fitting *grumbling*. Very well. Thanks for the answer, Rita :) /Jennifer From f95lean at dd.chalmers.se Sat Oct 20 10:59:53 2001 From: f95lean at dd.chalmers.se (Lea Niiniskorpi) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:59:53 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dean Thomas In-Reply-To: <9qri6r+cfrm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27992 On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Jennifer wrote: > Oh. Odd. In my swedish translation they don't mentione Dean at all > during that moment. Only three people are left to be sorted, it's > said - Lisa Turpin gets to be a Ravenclaw, Ron (to his great relief) > is a Gryffindor, and it ends with Blaise Zambini being sorted a > Slytherin. No sight of Dean. > I think I've seen something about this discussed before...wasn't it > an error in Philospoher's Stone, three people is said to be left but > four are sorted? Maybe the swedish translator simply changed it as > she though fitting *grumbling*. Dean Thomas is not mentioned in PS. He is probably sorted before Lisa Turpin while Harry is studying the people at the High Table, but it is not mentioned in the original edition. I don't know why the american editors have added such things, which are quite irrelevant. -- //Lea =================================== f95lean at dd.chalmers.se http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~f95lean/ =================================== From tabouli at unite.com.au Sat Oct 20 11:08:15 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:08:15 +1000 Subject: V and Lily, simplicity, unicorns, loooong unsnippets Message-ID: <004f01c15957$9ae350e0$d3856fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 27993 Cindy: > So why would Voldemort be reluctant to kill Lily? Maybe he needed her alive for some reason, like she had some information he needed. The information was valuable, but not so valuable so as to distract Voldemort from his main mission, which was to kill Harry.< Or maybe he wanted to keep his double agent Snape (desperately in love with her) on side? (quoth the captain of the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS). When exactly did Snape defect from the Death Eaters? Rowena (after complete paragraph from Dawn Treader showing that CSL qualified his different boy spiel): > Doesn't sound all that simplistic or 'fairytale' to me. In fact Eustace goes on having his tiresome moments right up to 'The Last Battle'.< Yes, yes, I realise CSL qualified his account of the transformation of Eustace, I actually quoted this same paragraph with page ref in early September. And in all fairness, I suppose Eustace does have the occasional tiresome moment after his reform (though not enough for us to immediately recognise his voice in the books, which we often can in HP). All the same, I maintain that CSL is writing "fantasy world" centred adventure stories with much simpler characterisation than JKR, which was my main point anyway. On unicorns (says Tabouli, deciding it's time for a new thread): What do people think of JKR's portrayal of unicorns? Every fantasy author seems to have a different interpretation. From memory (can't be bothered checking GoF, as I was meant to be at a party an hour ago - arrgh, this list is taking over my life!), JKR unicorns start out gold and hornless and then go silver and then white and horned. Is she basing this on some historic archetype, as she has so many other creatures? (e.g. house-elves). Ahem. Just a quick tip - I'm not a Moderator, and don't want to get accusing here, but uh... about 50% of the last 4 or 5 digests I received were long long long unsnipped quotes on the end of short top-posted messages, including thrice quoted Yahoo promotional paragraphs. Now, I do have a functioning Page Down key, but... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Oct 20 13:54:18 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:54:18 -0000 Subject: Potions: That Subtle Science In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qrvma+7vg1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27994 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: Amber, my fellow list elf, I have many times posted things that no one responded to. Your plea has not gone unheard. > > 1) I've asked this before, but I thought I'd ask it again. Besides the magical quality of the ingredients themselves, there doesn't seem to be any overt magic used in the making of a potion. Do you think that if a Muggle were to prepare a potion correctly, it would work? If not, why not?> I can't see why a Muggle couldn't create a lovely potion and use it. However, and I think this is what someone said last time, finding the ingredients can be very hard for a Muggle to do. If you can't get into Diagon Alley or Hogsmeade to get the ingredients, all of your Muggle intentions are for naught. > 4) It should be noted the Madam Pomfrey uses Potions as well (Pepperup Potion); do you think these are drastically different from the kind that Snape prepares? Do you think Snape could prepare "health" potions or does it demand extra training? Is this a silly question?> That isn't a silly question at all. Both Pomfrey and Snape are very good at what they do. Not only do I think Snape could be a most excellent nurse, but I am willing to bet that Pomfrey could teach Potions class as well. I just can't quite see Snapey wanting to get into all that health stuff... > 5) Would you personally enjoy Potions class? Forget about controversial Snape for the moment, what about the actual class itself?> ::sigh:: I'd enjoy anything at Hogwarts. Just give me the chance! > ~Amber > (Please, please, please, please, please, someone respond!)> --jenny from ravenclaw, happy to help *********** From conshydot at email.com Sat Oct 20 14:20:49 2001 From: conshydot at email.com (conshydot at email.com) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:20:49 -0000 Subject: That Wacky Prefect Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qs181+ekgq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27995 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "andrea mcpherson talia chambers" wrote: > Perhaps Cho Chang will become a prefect if it isn't Hermione.That might > buildher as a character. Both Cho and Hermioone can be prefects-- They're in different houses. Isn't Cho a Ravenclaw? From conshydot at email.com Sat Oct 20 14:20:25 2001 From: conshydot at email.com (conshydot at email.com) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:20:25 -0000 Subject: That Wacky Prefect Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qs179+lmtd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27996 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "andrea mcpherson talia chambers" wrote: > Perhaps Cho Chang will become a prefect if it isn't Hermione.That might > buildher as a character. Both Cho and Hermioone can be prefects-- They're in different houses. Isn't Cho a Ravenclaw? From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 15:25:12 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:25:12 -0400 Subject: Potions - Dean Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 27997 Amber wrote (great summaries, Amber!): >1) Ive asked this before, but I thought Id ask it again. Besides the >magical quality of the ingredients themselves, there doesnt seem to be any >overt magic used in the making of a potion. Do you think that if a Muggle >were to prepare a potion correctly, it would work? If not, why not? No, I really don't. I think there is a lot to magic that isn't overt. Magical people simply have an interaction with objects of the world that Muggles don't. I've given the broomstick example before here and elsewhere: even a charmed object like a broomstick would not necessarily work for Muggles. It isn't enough to say "Up!"--one has to have that magical oomph. (I should note, though again I'm repeating myself, that there *are* charmed objects that work for Muggles, or perhaps we should say against Muggles--the tea set that gave Mr. Weasley's office so much trouble, e.g. [CS 3].) By the same token, there is more to Potions than adding the right combination of things in the right order. Some ingredients no doubt have a magical effect even on Muggles (hence Muggle legends such as the necessity of plugging one's ears when one pulls up a mandrake root), but an invisible "ingredient" is the magical ability of the person making the potion. >5) Would you personally enjoy Potions class? Forget about controversial >Snape for the moment, what about the actual class itself? With another teacher, definitely! I love to cook, and the combination of cooking and magic is irresistible. Actually consuming the products, however . . . :shudder:. Pickled rats' brains, anyone? Onna stick? I bet Snape is a good cook. The skills are similar: patience, a willingness to put up with a lot of tedium (they need a food processor in that dungeon), strict adherence to certain rules (order to add ingredients, when to stir on or off the fire), a good understanding of the principles, and intuition. BTW, there are a couple of mentions of essays for Snape--one on Undetectable Poisons (don't recall where) and "a particularly nasty one about Shrinking Potions" (PA chapter 1). Why it would be particularly nasty, I don't know. Extra long? Requiring a lot of independent research? I don't doubt that Snape is an exacting grader. Jennifer asked: >I was reading in the Lexicon and found this line: >Dean Thomas: "...a Black boy, even taller than Ron (SS..." >When in the books is it said that he is tall? I've tried to find it >but I couldn't. I'm pretty intested in Dean :) Do you have the UK edition? This line does not appear there, so you could look all week and not find it. In the US edition Steve is quoting, it shows up in the Sorting, right after Harry is Sorted and takes his seat. The change also led to a Flint: the US edition, like the UK, says "there remained only 3 people to be Sorted," even though if the description includes Dean there are four: Dean, Lisa Turpin, Ron, and Blaise Zabini. However, JKR wrote it, so we can take it as canon that Dean is black and very tall. Amy Z who would like to point out that you can vote for Dean for prefect by clicking on Polls ------------------------------------------------------- "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as Quirrell stands up to Snape?" said Hermione in alarm. "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone ------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 20 15:25:17 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:25:17 -0000 Subject: Potions: That Subtle Science In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qs50t+19q0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27998 Amber wrote: > > I must say I'm a tad sad that practically nobody has responded to my chapter > summaries. I'm hoping that this sketch will provide more of a response or > else I just spent 2-3 hours on it for nothing (although I did enjoy writing > it). [*nasty pang of guilt, and a resolution to do better in the future*] I feel your pain, Amber. I would have responded to your excellent chapter summaries, but it is getting awfully hard to have anything valid to say that hasn't been said before. I pledge to try harder, starting with your outstanding essay on Potions. > Amber wrote: > There also seems to be several classes of potions: regular potions, > draughts, drafts, solutions, poisons, antidotes, and concoctions. While > poisons and antidotes are rather obvious, the distinction between potions, > drafts, draughts, solutions, and concoctions don't seem to be entirely > clear. In fact, there may be no obvious distinction. > > 3) Ingredients must be prepared carefully. Ex: Ron had spent the last > quarter of an hour carefully shredding his own roots into exactly equal > pieces. (POA 124) I wonder whether wands are useful or even permitted in the making of potions. I don't recall an instance where a student uses a wand to assist in making a potion. Could it be that wand magic is too imprecise for potions work? Could it be that wand energy "fouls" a potion, the way cooking a tomato sauce in the wrong pan will cause it to taste funny? Otherwise, I can't understand why Ron doesn't use a Severing Charm to cut his ginger roots in half the time. Amber wrote: > While it may seem on the surface that potions aren't used often in the > wizarding world, this is untrue. There are many notable instances where > potions come in handy. The most obvious are the ubiquitous Polyjuice potion > which has shown its use time and time again, the potion used to cure the > Petrified students, the Wolfsbane Potion that Lupin uses to become a tame > wolf when he changes, the potion used to restore Voldemort's body, and > Veritaserum. All have been influential in the various plots. While potions > aren't used as often as spells, they clearly have their place in the > wizarding world. > Also, most potions seem to be consumed orally, but a few are used by placing it on the person or object. Snape tests Neville's Shrinking Solution on Trevor by pouring it down his throat, and he becomes a tadpole. To restore Trevor, Snape puts a drop of something on the tadpole. One can assume that the Mandrake Draught isn't consumed orally, as the recipients are Petrified. Amber wrote: > 2) What is the difference between a potion, draft, draught, solution, and > concoction? Or is there no distinction and they are simply arbitrary names? > (I wouldn't know, I struggled quite a bit in chemistry class in school!) > Here's an attempt to make sense of these terms. Where I have facts from canon, I'll note that. Everything else is theory, conjecture and wild speculation: Potions are temporary and generally require no antidote. Examples are Polyjuice potion (wears off in an hour); Wolfsbane potion (must be taken at least monthly); Pepperup potion (presumably one doesn't stay pepped up indefinitely, and no antidote is given); Aging potion (Fred and George would have lost their beards in time, but going to Madam Pomfrey might shorten their wait); Sleekeasy Hair potion (Hermione has to use it daily); Skelegro potion (Harry's bones do stop growing without an antidote); Sleeping potion in GoF (Harry does wake up on his own); Veritaserum Truth Potion (presumably wears off, as Dumbledore never suggests giving Crouch Jr. an antidote). We don't see some potions in action, but presumably potions like Memory Potion, Forgetfulness Potion, Hair Raising Potion, and Love Potion wear off. Draughts (also drafts) are potions that work without being ingested. That makes sense for Mandrake Restorative Draught (for petrified people); Deflating Draught (reverses Swelling Solution); Draught of the Living Dead (makes a really powerful sleeping potion, but I don't know if it must be ingested); Sleeping Draft (GoF dragons presumably won't hold still to drink a potion). But then again, Hermione gives Crabb and Goyle a "simple" Sleeping Draught by putting it in a cake, which sounds like it has to be ingested. Solutions require an antidote. Examples are Swelling Solution (requires Deflating Draught); Shrinking Solution (Snape uses an antidote on Trevor). There are others, but canon doesn't tell us their purpose (what is a Scintillating Solution?). Concoction sounds like a potion that can be customized rather than following a rigid set of rules. Perhaps a Confusing Concoction is a "free-style" potion that varies depending on what you'd like someone to be confused about. Harry prepares this for his final exam, and a potion that requires some individual artistry might make a good exam. OK, L.O.O.N.s. Fire away! > Amber wrote: > 6)Fun Question: If you could make up a potion, what would be its name, what > would it do, and what ingredients would go into it? Weight loss potion, of course. To be taken on the hour. Consisting of at various times of chocolate, fried foods, pizza and ice cream. Exercise causes it to wear off. Cindy From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 15:28:12 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley vs Draco In-Reply-To: <9qqibi+fmrg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011020152812.26747.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 27999 --- jenny from ravenclaw wrote: > Kids whose parents hit them or each > other grow up to hit their own kids or be in abusive > relationships > themselves. The statistics are sadly overwhelming. Actually they're not. Adults who grew up in abusive homes are somewhat more likely to become abusers themselves but the majority do not. I beg you not to underestimate free will and moral choice. > Draco and Dudley may eventually have changes of > heart, but they are > now quite young and blissfully happy in their > situations Dudley is no longer happy. He is being forced to diet, is afraid of being hexed by Harry or his friends and is probably having a hard time at school. JKR is on record as saying his sheltered, spoiled life is over and that it's still not too late for him to change. As for Draco, I agree with tillrules. At Hogwarts he has been exposed to different and positive ideas from those at home but continues to hew to his father's party line. He is now deliberately choosing to be bad and I see no signs of that changing. > --jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks our parents have > EVERYTHING to do > with who we are ******* Not everything. It's not just what parents do, but how their children interpret what they do. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 15:31:36 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5) In-Reply-To: <20011019225956.43004.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011020153136.27237.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28000 --- scott chatten wrote: > sorry never quite caught that... what did you base > your assumption on? As I recall at the end of CoS Dumbledore explains that Lord Voldemort was originally Tom Riddle and that he 'taught him myself fifty years ago'. Or something like that. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From trs80 at tartarus.uwa.edu.au Sat Oct 20 16:14:50 2001 From: trs80 at tartarus.uwa.edu.au (James Andrewartha) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:14:50 +0800 (WST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's descendants...and Dumbledore's truthfulness In-Reply-To: <20011020002914.55899.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28001 On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, scott chatten wrote: > well if dumbledore is concealing the fact that he > (like everyone else with a deep dark secret it seems) > is an animagus, i would suppose it would make perfect > sense then wouldn't it??? but i mean there is no basis > other than what his name was derived from so dont > expect me to find any grounds for that theory. it > would just be the easy escape route for JKR. IIRC, Hermione says that there were only seven registered animagi *this century* (emphasis mine), perhaps Dumbledore was registered last century (being ~150 years old)? Although I don't think that Hermione would conceal the fact that Dumbledore was an animagi, perhaps the list she looked at only covered this century. Which also leads to the question (which I'm sure has been asked before), who are the other 6 (registered) animagi? James Andrewartha From dumbledore94 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 16:25:31 2001 From: dumbledore94 at hotmail.com (andrea mcpherson talia chambers) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:25:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That Wacky Prefect Debate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28002 Hi! Depends if there is one prefect per house, Andrea >From: conshydot at email.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That Wacky Prefect Debate >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:20:25 -0000 > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "andrea mcpherson talia chambers" > wrote: > > Perhaps Cho Chang will become a prefect if it isn't Hermione.That >might > > buildher as a character. >Both Cho and Hermioone can be prefects-- They're in different houses. >Isn't Cho a Ravenclaw? > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 16:53:06 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:53:06 -0000 Subject: blond/Potions/Dean In-Reply-To: <9qreff+pu2a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qsa5i+239b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28003 Catlady wrote: >You left out Pansy Parkinson being blonde. Oh yeah, another one? Where does it give Pansy's hair color? The reversal of the classic blond-is-good, brown/black-is-bad is nice, but I wonder if JKR has any idea how far she takes it. > Oh, I'd HATE it. Same as I hated Chem labs despite my enjoyment of > the lecture and paper part of the class and same as I hate cooking. > Being terribly neat and careful is NOT part of my personality. Even > my fetal pig dissection was sloppy. I like things, like COBOL and > knitting, where sloppiness doesn't ruin it. LOL! That is a great comfort to this sloppy knitter. >I have heard that the British > edition mentions that he is tall but not that he is black? Nope, it mentions neither. Dean just is not mentioned at all in the Sorting scene (we miss everyone between Potter and Turpin, what with Harry sitting down in a daze, being patted by Nick, etc.), and IIRC, there's never another mention of his height in any of the books. Amy Z pleased to note that redheads have very high status in HP ------------------------------------------------ "I've told you before, Ron, keep your nose out if you like it the shape it is. Can't see why you would, but--" -HP and the Goblet of Fire ------------------------------------------------ From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sat Oct 20 17:22:40 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:22:40 -0000 Subject: Hermione's ages In-Reply-To: <9qq9sl+2rrs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qsbt0+6mh6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28004 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote wrote: > > Emma Watson was 10 y/o during the > filming of PS/SS, maybe this was importtant JKR that it be a younger > girl playign Hermione just for this reason? > > > > > You're right IMO, Vicky. *All* the evidence save the British Muggle > education system itself points to Hermione being 10 upon starting > Hogwarts. I spent the summer studying the British educational system > when this question came up and asked my tutor if it was possible for > a child to begin school early or to be accelerated at some point. > His answers seemed to allow for exceptions to be made. But isn't Tom Felton 13 - and nobody's suggesting that Draco's been held back 3 years (on a slightly OT note can I just mention how relieved I am that they're using about the right age actors - I suppose they have to at about 10 - this relief has been brought by the discovery that in the new "Smallvile" TV thing, a 15 year old Superman is being played by a 24 year old man... just a bit stupid that...). Anyway, back to the topic - what are these seemingly obvious to everyone else reasons why Hermione has to be younger than Harry? To go with Occam's razor or whatever its called - the simplest explanation is probably the best one. From everything we've seen (the school year starting on Septemeber 1st and so on) Hogwarts does follow the British school system. Would they really know how bright Hermione is anyway? And, another point, maybe the reason she knows so much is because she's been preparing for this for so long - she's got herself very psyched up, so to speak, and tried to learn as much as possible. (On another matter - I don't personnally believe that they just send a letter to muggle students and expect them to turn up. At the very least they'd need someone to come and see them - this didn't happen with Harry, because as far as the wizard world knows, he isn't a muggle). > Even so, again that's the Muggle > side of things that postdates the wizarding by just about a full > millennium. > > --Ebony AKA AngieJ But again, the starting on September 1st thing (and the suspicious way that OWLs and NEWTs arrive in exactly the same years as GSCEs and A-Levels) suggest that Hogwarts has adapted to match the British school system at large. Saying that though, I don't really see them going to all the trouble of looking at a muggle's primary school record and deciding to move them up a year (which is BTW very rare, and up to the parents - not to say that pupils can't be in a year above for most of the school, but they normally double a year to stay down - the British schooling system is weird (my own path was 1, 2, 2, 4, 5, 5, 6)). So, to conclude, unless there's a good reason that I've not seen (and I don't she doesn't seem mature counts) I don't see any reason to bend the rules of the HPverse specifically for her. Jon PS Just a small request for everyone - but can you try not to quote complete messages (and the digest introduction) after you've said all you want to say. Half the digests are just lines with > at the start of them now. From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 20 21:09:14 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:09:14 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Chapter 06 Summary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qsp5q+iad7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28005 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" wrote: > A warning: these questions are not the finest. They are a bit lame. Truly I > racked my brains but couldn't come up with anything better. If anyone can > think up more interesting ones, by all means pose them to the group! Don't worry - the ones about the Weasleys and Hermione made me think a bit. OK, Amber, just to make you happy...No really, this is one of my favourite chapters in the entire series so far, and has one of my favourite scenes in it (when the twins ask Harry if he is Harry Potter. So poignant, so telling about Harry's psyche at that point, as I have ranted about before, so I'll shut up now). Questions: 1) Why wasn't Harry told about the barrier to the platform nine and three-quarters and how to get through it? What do you think would have happened if Harry hadn't figured out the barrier? I think that this was an oversight on Hagrid's part. He was obviously not used to contacting potential Hogwart's students, and was not clear on what instructions to give. As he says himself, he did keep forgetting how much Harry didn't know, and he is rather absent minded as far as details and practicalities are concerned. 2) Do you remember your first impressions of the Weasley family? Of Ron? What were they? I loved them. I especially liked the twins ? as mentioned above, one of my favourite scenes is when they ask Harry if he is Harry Potter. I also thought how kind they were, to help an unknown first year with his trunk. In my experience, that kind of behaviour is quite rare in adolescent boys. I felt that I already knew Percy ? his pride in being a prefect which he just can't keep quiet about, and I felt sympathy for him as things such as that used to make me very happy and self-important as well! Mrs Weasley, just nice and motherly, and perhaps slightly harassed, and I liked the way she immediately felt protective of Harry, when she insisted that her children weren't to ask him about Voldemort. Actually, Ron was the one I didn't immediately take to (and I know some of you will immediately think, no surprises there). I've never particularly liked his humour (apart from the naked joke with Dobby's teacosy), but I did feel very sorry for him, with the older brothers, hand-me-downs (I had many of those when I was a child) corned beef sandwiches and I'm sure that I realised that he was destined to be Harry's friend, not just because of himself, but because of what the whole family could give him. Finally, I'm quite a fan of Ginny, compared to many people on this list, but her first appearance didn't really do much for me. I just thought - little girl, and I used that to explain the immaturity she shows in wanting to go and look at Harry. However, I did think that she had a good relationship with her brothers, and liked the fact that she really wanted to go to Hogwarts. 3) What was your first impression of Hermione? Did you guess that she would become a main character at this point? Yes! I immediately recognised and loved Hermione. I know that she is initially annoying, but she still has many redeeming features at this point as well, and I actually found her quite endearing. I love the fact that she is helping Neville - I know this can be seen as interfering and being bossy, but it also came from recognising that Neville did need help (her first lame duck at Hogwarts?) and also came from insecurity within herself ? making a friend by helping and being useful (and mothering already) is a sure fire way not to be lonely, although I am sure the latter was subconscious. What I find most telling about Hermione in these first scenes is the expression "she said this very fast" (para). Insecurity? People often talk very fast because they want to say everything they want to say without being interrupted ? and this could be because they are worried someone is going to tell them to go away or shut up before they manage to get the words out. I don't know, but I saw these first overtures on Hermione's part to be full of mistakes ? but not born merely out of bossiness and showing off, but out of a desire to make friends and not quite knowing how to go about it. Did I think that she would be a main character? Yes, because even at this stage, you immediately get a sense of who and what she is, and she is extremely well drawn, compared to someone like Lavender or Dean, for instance. 4) Did you wonder at how Neville could so frequently lose his toad? Did anyone at this point think up the popular theory that Neville is under a memory charm? No. That only occurred to me during GoF, and I'm not entirely sure that I thought of it before someone on this list did ? ie. I may not have thought it during my reading of GoF at all. Why are these things so hard to pin down sometimes? Catherine From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Oct 20 21:11:35 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:11:35 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Snippage Rules Message-ID: <3BD1E887.8060609@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28006 Hi everyone -- Please, please, please snip off unnecessary material out of your messages! Do NOT just hit reply, type in a few lines & send an overly long message to this list. Those of you regularly forget (or refuse) to snip off extraneous material are killing our Digest readers, and making it hard for everyone to read your messages if your thoughts are buried in a morass of quoted material. We have received several complaints about this problem. WARNING: We are going to start sending e-howlers to anyone who is a frequent, flagrant violator of this rule. After a certain number of howlers, we will put people on Moderated status. The list is very large & very high volume. We expect even more members will be joining us after the Movie is released. Everyone is going to need to play by the List Rules henceforth or expect to hear from a Moderator. Grumpily, Penny Moderator Team From blpurdom at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 22:36:54 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:36:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione's ages In-Reply-To: <9qsbt0+6mh6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qsua6+b461@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28007 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jonathandupont at h... wrote: > Anyway, back to the topic - what are these seemingly obvious to > everyone else reasons why Hermione has to be younger than Harry? To > go with Occam's razor or whatever its called - the simplest > explanation is probably the best one. From everything we've seen > (the school year starting on Septemeber 1st and so on) Hogwarts > does follow the British school system. Would they really know how > bright Hermione is anyway? And, another point, maybe the reason she > knows so much is because she's been preparing for this for so long - > she's got herself very psyched up, so to speak, and tried to learn > as much as possible. Despite the seeming-similarity between GCSE's (formerly O-levels, I believe) and O.W.L.s, and between N.E.W.T.s and A-levels, I don't believe the wizarding school system has been rigidly based upon the British version. There are enough differences between the wizard and Muggle worlds that I hardly think they would concern themselves with conventions important to non-wizards. The wizarding world also changes very, very slowly. I think the similarities in tests are an in-joke JKR provided for British readers, and she's probably also harking back to her own days in school. () At any rate, there a couple of other possible reasons for why Hermione might be born in September of 1980 rather than 1979: 1) She could already have been slightly ahead in her Muggle school. Given her academic prowess at Hogwarts, this is hardly a leap. It fits with her character perfectly. Hogwarts is probably in the practice of sending acceptance letters to any magical child who will turn eleven during the calendar year, and if the parents prefer to wait a year for a child to begin, so be it. This would be "Hogwarts Deferred Acceptance." 2) She could have received her letter and (hopefully) a visit from McGonagall or Sprout or someone else reassuring and non-threatening to introduce the Granger family to the idea of the magical world and Hermione's place in it despite Hermione still having one more year to go in Muggle primary school. The Grangers might very well have decided to send her to Hogwarts anyway because a) Hermione is very bright and probably had already read all of her texts for the following year of school in the first week of summer holidays; or b) Hogwarts does not seem to place much store in students learning Muggle things such as world capitals and French irregular verbs and quadratic formulae, so Hermione forgoing her final year of Muggle school would hardly seem a loss to McGonagall/Sprout, who would urge the Grangers to let her begin her magical studies immediately. 3) JKR might not have had any contact with school friends with birthdays after September 1 and may not have been aware that this was the cut-off. I know many people who have children with spring and summer birthdays who did not know/understand why I was trying to get my daughter into first grade last year although she wouldn't turn 6 until September 9. They didn't HAVE to know, and so they didn't. This could just be a JKR oversight, and those have happened before. Given that the cut-off in our local school district has changed in my relatively short lifetime from January 1 to September 1 and the slow rate of change in wizarding society, I find it doubtful that there is a September 1 cutoff for Hogwarts. --Barb From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 20 23:16:01 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:16:01 -0000 Subject: When Dementors Aren't Engaged (filk) Message-ID: <9qt0jh+ts4e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28008 When Dementors Aren't Engaged (To the tune of When a Felon's Not Engaged, from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Pirates of Penzance) Dedicated to Amanda Lewanski THE SCENE: An office of the Ministry of Magic. ALASTOR MOODY has just gone through mandated sensitivity training, with a seeming change of heart MOODY When dementors aren't engaged in soul-destroyment Or in draining out each happy thought they can Our ear for their rich culture is with joy bent As love and peace they spread through Azkaban We must embrace each Dark Lord as our brother Stereotyping of death eaters we reject We must make sure that we don't label them "The Other" Aurors must be politically correct We do not advocate a jingoistic Dark Arts Defense We must heed the call for Constant Tolerance Although Dark Wizards try at times to kill us Or to hurt us with an Unforgiven Curse, `Tis a sensitive thought certain to fulfill us If we celebrate the ways that they're diverse When a Red Cap feasts on bodies after battle That's a lifestyle choice that we should all respect The differences `twixt Dark and Light we'll straddle Aurors shall be politically correct Oh! When Lord Voldemort next strikes at us with murderous force We must ask ourselves how we've wronged him, of course. NOTE: Although Prof. Moody's consciousness may seem to have been raised, he was actually put under a mild Confundus Curse, which wore off in a couple of hours - after which he went back to detesting and loathing all Dark Wizards and creatures, as a good Auror should. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Sat Oct 20 23:45:13 2001 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:45:13 -0000 Subject: Hermione's ages In-Reply-To: <9qsua6+b461@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qt2a9+hsj8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28009 --- In HPforGrownups, "Barb" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jonathandupont at h... wrote: > > Anyway, back to the topic - what are these seemingly obvious to > > everyone else reasons why Hermione has to be younger than Harry? [snip] > At any rate, there a couple of other possible reasons for why > Hermione might be born in September of 1980 rather than 1979: [snip] I still cannot say that I have seen reasons for Hermione being born in 1980. I have seen reasons why it is not impossible that she is born in 1980, rather than in 1979, but that is not quite the same. I cannot recall ever on HPFGU or other lists having seen reasons that might convince me it is more likely that Hermione is born in 1980 rather than in 1979. It is my impression that Britain has an attitude similar to that of Norway with regards to moving students ahead - it is very rarely done, and one has to be several years ahead academically for it even to be considered. > 3) JKR might not have had any contact with school friends with > birthdays after September 1 and may not have been aware that > this was the cut-off. [snip] > This could just be a JKR oversight, and those have happened > before. [snip] They have, but I do not find it likely in this case. I find it likely, in fact, that JKR operates with the typical British boarding- school in mind, and probably has stuck to the Sept 1 break-off date for reason of keeping it close to the existing British way. As far as I can see, she started out with a British audience in mind - she was after all published in Great Britain first. It is then prudent that key elements of the school system are kept in a form that a UK audience easily can recognise - it will make the differences all the more noticeable. As long as JKR does not say that the academic year and intake year of Hogwarts are set up differently from the present British system, I see no reason to assume that they are. As for the British and Scottish systems of education being different, almost 90% of the students would statistically be expected to come from England Best regards Christian Stub? From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 21 00:39:00 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:39:00 -0000 Subject: A few random puzzles Message-ID: <9qt5f4+lah6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28010 Here are a few things that came to mind: 1. In PS/SS, Vernon insults Dumbledore, and Hagrid tries to turn Dudley into a pig, giving him a pig tail that has to be surgically removed. But why? If Vernon is the problem, why hex an innocent boy? 2. In PS/SS, Hagrid tells Harry about Gringotts. He says it is guarded by "spells -- enchantments", with dragons guarding the high- security vaults. As Bill is a curse-breaker and Charlie is a dragon specialist, are the Weasleys going to break into Gringotts in a future book? 3. In the Pensieve, Bertha Jorkins appears and delivers the famous lines that have us all so baffled: "He put a hex on me, Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir, I only said I'd seen him kissing Florence behind the greenhouses last Thursday . . . " "But why, Bertha," said Dumbledore sadly, looking up at the now silently revolving girl, "why did you have to follow him in the first place." For this Bertha Jorkins stuff to be important to make it into the Pensieve and for Dumbledore to still be sad about it, the "kissing" has to be more than garden-variety kissing. So I wonder if Bertha saw Snape, who is half-dementor, administering the Kiss to someone. Or maybe he is a vampire, and what Bertha mistakes for a kiss is really a bite. Really, I apologize for bringing up point three again, and I know it has been done to death, but who knows? Maybe we'll figure it out if we give it just one more try? Cindy From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 21 01:08:47 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 01:08:47 -0000 Subject: the younger reflections, or rather the older reflections Message-ID: <9qt76v+sk7v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28011 I am sure that I am not the only person who has seen the extreme resembelance between the older generation of wizards and the younger generation of wizards. I of course am refering to how there is a really evident similarity between Hermonie's personality and Minerva McGonagall. As well as the numerous personality traits that Dumbledore and Harry share. Ron and possibly Lupin. And if we want to go to extremities then Draco Malfoy and Snape. Comments?? Scott From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 21 01:34:21 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 01:34:21 -0000 Subject: Unicorns - Potions - Animagi - Jorkins Message-ID: <9qt8mt+iibs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28012 Tabouli wrote: > JKR unicorns start out gold and hornless and then go silver and > then white and horned. I don't know if she has any historic lore for that. What it reminded me of was -- was it the wordless movie DREAM OF WHITE HORSES? -- maybe the Lippanzer stallions -- anyway, some breed of horses that is famous for being WHITE, except they are born black and have faded to dapple-gray as yearlings and don't reach pure white until they're two or three years old. Cindy wrote: > I wonder whether wands are useful or even permitted in the making > of potions. > > 2) What is the difference between a potion, draft, draught, > > solution, and concoction? > Here's an attempt to make sense of these terms. I think your proposed explanation are excellent and probably correct and ought to go into the speculations section of the Lexicon. Steve? > what is a Scintillating Solution?). I suppose it makes the recipient sparkle. Same effect as the Star Spangled Charm I invented for Lily to use on her Christmas wreaths to achieve the same appearance as fairy lights. Or perhaps it makes a person 'sparkle' in a metaphorical way, intellectual brilliance or a brilliant wit. > Weight loss potion, of course. To be taken on the hour. > Consisting of at various times of chocolate, fried foods, > pizza and ice cream. Exercise causes it to wear off. Oh, God. I think I love you. Of course, when the exercise of walking ALL OVER the mall while shopping causes the potion to wear off, one has to take an extra dose! Amy Z wrote: > > I like things, like COBOL and knitting, where sloppiness doesn't > > ruin it. > LOL! That is a great comfort to this sloppy knitter. But your earlier post said you LIKE cooking and potions, partly because of the care required. James Andrewartha wrote: > who are the other 6 (registered) animagi? I fantasize that two of them were the Prewetts whose death by Voldemort Hagrid bemoans along with that of Bones and MacKinnons. I fantasize that they were Hufflepuffs (loyal and law-biding, so they registered) who worked as agents for Dumbledore's anti-Voldemort resistance. Shorter answer: IIRC, from canon we don't know at all. Cindy wrote: > For this Bertha Jorkins stuff to be important to make it into the > Pensieve and for Dumbledore to still be sad about it, the "kissing" > has to be more than garden-variety kissing. I read it as, Dumbledore is not still sad about the kissing, he is sad about Bertha's death. "Why did you have to follow him in the first place" applies to why did she follow Pettigrew from the Albanian tavern (where she ran into him on her holiday) to her death and service to Voldemort? What caused that old memory to come up in the Pensieve was that he used the same sentence/question then as now and the cause was Bertha's snoopiness then as now. Speaking of Bertha's sevice to Voldemort, some brilliant person on this list suggested that she provided him with more than information -- let me do a Search for it: "blue eyed tigress wrote: Okay, here goes: I suspect that Bertha Jorkins may have played a more involved role in Voldy's revival than JKR can ever reveal. But I ask myself ... we see Voldemort early on as a face manifested on someone else's body (Quirrel, who always makes me think of squirrels, but I digress); we hear V. talked about as if he were a weak and disembodied spirit, a phantasm, an evil influence. THEN, after months in hiding, and months with the unwilling company of Bertha Jorkins (missing person and presumably "pure"-blooded witch) Voldy shows up in his, as someone so aptly put it, "ugly baby form". So. Were the powers of evil using poor Bertha as a magically-augmented incubator? Voldemort's body, the form he took before The Graveyard Scene, had to come from somewhere ... (Sorry, I just thought I'd share that nightmare image, so I don't have it all to myself)" So Dumbledore could be sad not only for poor Bertha, but because of the unfortunate result she enabled: Voldemort's return. From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sun Oct 21 02:01:39 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 02:01:39 -0000 Subject: A few random puzzles In-Reply-To: <9qt5f4+lah6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qtaa3+7d75@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28013 Cindy wrote: > Here are a few things that came to mind: > > 1. In PS/SS, Vernon insults Dumbledore, and Hagrid tries to turn > Dudley into a pig, giving him a pig tail that has to be surgically > removed. But why? If Vernon is the problem, why hex an innocent > boy? I got the distinct impression Hagrid's "magic" was rather impromptu and irrational. I don't think there was much thought process to whom he was cursing--just pointed to the nearest person and cursed away! > > 3. In the Pensieve, Bertha Jorkins appears and delivers the famous > lines that have us all so baffled: "He put a hex on me, Professor > Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir, I only said I'd seen him > kissing Florence behind the greenhouses last Thursday . . . " "But > why, Bertha," said Dumbledore sadly, looking up at the now silently > revolving girl, "why did you have to follow him in the first place." > > For this Bertha Jorkins stuff to be important to make it into the > Pensieve and for Dumbledore to still be sad about it, the "kissing" > has to be more than garden-variety kissing. So I wonder if Bertha > saw Snape, who is half-dementor, administering the Kiss to someone. > Or maybe he is a vampire, and what Bertha mistakes for a kiss is > really a bite. I know this has been hypothesized upon countless times, but perhaps Dumbledore was sad recalling the memory because he knew Bertha was dead?? It always struck me as just a harmless memory of a classic "moment" from one of his students (as a teacher). Nothing more. Sometimes I feel like we are way too L.O.O.N.ey into things & create mountains out of molehills--but never mind that, it's great fun! :-D -Megan, whose molehills are always mountainous From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 21 02:02:14 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 02:02:14 -0000 Subject: Bertha Jorkins (WAS Unicorns - Potions - Animagi - Jorkins) In-Reply-To: <9qt8mt+iibs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qtab6+cub8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28014 > Cindy wrote: > > > For this Bertha Jorkins stuff to be important to make it into the > > Pensieve and for Dumbledore to still be sad about it, the "kissing" > > has to be more than garden-variety kissing. > Catlady wrote: > I read it as, Dumbledore is not still sad about the kissing, he is > sad about Bertha's death. "Why did you have to follow him in the > first place" applies to why did she follow Pettigrew from the > Albanian tavern (where she ran into him on her holiday) to her death > and service to Voldemort? What caused that old memory to come up in > the Pensieve was that he used the same sentence/question then as now > and the cause was Bertha's snoopiness then as now. > > Speaking of Bertha's sevice to Voldemort, some brilliant person on > this list suggested that she provided him with more than information > -- let me do a Search for it: > :-0 > I am still not all the way there, Catlady. I almost buy the idea that Dumbledore's sadness is over recent events, not old events. (At this point, Dumbledore doesn't KNOW Bertha is dead, although he suspects it, but OK, maybe he still feels sad about her disappearance). But Dumbledore has no idea how Wormtail and Voldemort captured Bertha or know that she followed anyone anywhere-- we learn about it when Voldemort explains it to the Death Eaters. So Dumbledore doesn't yet know enough to link the "Bertha following Snape/Sirius/whoever incident" long ago with the more recent "Bertha following Wormtail incident". And that kissing Florence business -- that can't be linked up to recent events. So, for whatever reason, this minor event of kissing and hexing has made it into a pensieve with hugely important things (Karkarov's trial, Bagman's trial, Crouch Jr.'s trial, Harry, Snape's report on the dark mark). I'm still thinking that more is going on, particularly in light of the possibility that Bertha got a memory charm that caused her to forget whatever she saw long ago. Cindy (wondering if the Pensieve has a delete feature for when old memories no longer matter) From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 21 05:33:20 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bertha Jorkins (WAS Unicorns - Potions - Animagi - Jorkins) In-Reply-To: <9qtab6+cub8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011021053320.23190.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28015 > Catlady wrote: > > > I read it as, Dumbledore is not still sad about > the kissing, he is > > sad about Bertha's death. "Why did you have to > follow him in the > > first place" applies to why did she follow > Pettigrew from the > > Albanian tavern (where she ran into him on her > holiday) to her > death > > and service to Voldemort? What caused that old > memory to come up in > > the Pensieve was that he used the same > sentence/question then as > now > > and the cause was Bertha's snoopiness then as now. Well, the way I'd always read this scene is that Dumbledore was remembering how Bertha was always nosing around in places she shouldn't have and getting herself in trouble - she was hexed by the kissing boy, but only because she'd followed him back there in the first place. Dumbledore likely suspects that Bertha's curiosity has gotten her in trouble yet again, which is why the memory appeared in the Pensieve. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From saitaina at wizzards.net Sun Oct 21 07:29:51 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:29:51 -0700 Subject: Bertha in the Pensive References: <20011021053320.23190.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008c01c15a02$2c753dc0$344e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 28016 I see Dumbledore as one of those Headmasters (Principals) that cares about all his students, no matter how much trouble they get themselves (or others) into. He's got a heart that way. Now this whole mess is troubling to Dumbledore on two levels. One, the level of Voldemort and protecting Harry and that lot (remember they knew WHERE Voldemort was rumored to last be and that's where Bertha disappeared at.). But on another level, he knew her, cared about her, and she's missing. I see the memory as a fond one, one of many where Bertha ended up in trouble for her own curiosity. That curiosity defined her, constantly poking her nose into where it doesn't belong. I see Dumbledore's line as a fondness tinged with worry as he repeats what he said so long ago. He knows she's in trouble and he guesses that her infamous curiosity got the better of her hence leading her into trouble so while the line is spoke with a fondness of her image and memory...the worry is there, wonder what she's done now to get her into trouble, to cause her to become missing. I base my assessment on several teachers/principal's I have known in life. I never was the 'good kid' and was really more trouble then it was worth putting into me, but I will always remember those adults that stood by me and even now keep up with me to make sure I'm doing alright. In them I see Prof. Dumbledore and I know that if hey had a pensive they would few my memory with the same fondness/exasperation Dumbledore does Bertha. It's that love and caring for a student that never leaves you even several years after they've left your school. I'm not sure I explained this as I wanted...but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say. Saitaina ***** http://fly.to/TheTomesofKnowledge Your place for Harry Potter, BTVS, Angel and Anita Blake fanficiton Also Doing: Reading fanfiction/Role-playing Last Movie Seen: In all honesty..can't remember..could have been Shreik...or Tomb Raider...or Atlantis...saw em all on the same day Last TV Show Seen: Last SHOW- 'Designing Women' Currently watching-CNN Current Book-HP and the Chamber of Secrets (with a few Nita Blakes mixed in) From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 10:35:24 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:35:24 -0000 Subject: Bertha - aside to Rita Message-ID: <9qu8dc+tth7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28017 Cindy wrote: > I am still not all the way there, Catlady. I almost buy the idea > that Dumbledore's sadness is over recent events, not old events. (At > this point, Dumbledore doesn't KNOW Bertha is dead, although he > suspects it, but OK, maybe he still feels sad about her > disappearance). She's been missing without a word for 11 months! If that happened to someone you knew, you'd be beyond worried--you'd be virtually certain she was dead. Dumbledore, unlike Fudge, is not an idiot. She goes on vacation to Albania . . . she is never heard from again . . . now who do we know who's in Albania? . . . have we ever seen people disappear like this before, hmmm, yes that seems familiar . . . and what's that you say, Harry's scar started hurting him shortly after her disappearance? . . . it doesn't take a genius. > But Dumbledore has no idea how Wormtail and > Voldemort captured Bertha or know that she followed anyone anywhere-- > we learn about it when Voldemort explains it to the Death Eaters. So > Dumbledore doesn't yet know enough to link the "Bertha following > Snape/Sirius/whoever incident" long ago with the more recent "Bertha > following Wormtail incident". No, he doesn't know how it happened, but he knows Bertha and the kind of thing that is likely to get her into trouble. My sense is that the Pensieve puts together one's vague impressions, memories, and intuitions and makes them more visible to the conscious mind. Thus Dumbledore's comment to it that he could have connected the reappearance of Snape's Dark Mark to Harry's headache without assistance--he's saying sarcastically, "thanks, I figured out that much all on my own." So the Pensieve is putting together one of his old, seemingly innocuous memories of Bertha with the other events of the year and nudging him to notice that there's a connection between girl-Bertha's nosiness (and subsequent trouble) and woman-Bertha's disappearance. BTW, Sirius made the same observation during his fireside (fire-middle?) chat: Bertha was an idiot (by which he means bad judgment, not all-around stupid; he later comments on her too-good memory) and very nosy. I wrote: > LOL! That is a great comfort to this sloppy knitter. Catlady wrote: > But your earlier post said you LIKE cooking and potions, partly > because of the care required. I do like cooking, but less because of the care required than in spite of it. In knitting, if you let up on the Constant Vigilance for even a few stitches, you can get a disaster. I don't exercise that kind of concentration; my mind wanders, and then I have trouble. This is why I would enjoy Potions *with another professor,* one who isn't going to try to poison my cat because I melt a couple of cauldrons. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!" said Fred indignantly. "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying git," said George. "Isn't he, Harry?" "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly. --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------------------- From blaise_writer at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 10:36:20 2001 From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:36:20 -0000 Subject: Potions: That Subtle Science In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9qu8f4+ihet@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28018 Answers to some of Amber's wonderful questions on Potions: > 1) I've asked this before, but I thought I'd ask it again. Besides the magical quality of the ingredients themselves, there doesn't seem to be any overt magic used in the making of a potion. Do you think that if a Muggle were to prepare a potion correctly, it would work? If not, why not? I don't think a Muggle could make a potion correctly. My evidence for this is Snape's speech at the first potions class: "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic." Clearly, it is magic and not simply following a recipe to the letter. And the definition of a Muggle is someone who can't do magic. > 2) What is the difference between a potion, draft, draught, solution, and concoction? Or is there no distinction and they are simply arbitrary names? I was interested in the analysis of what the differences might by by some of the other respondents to this question. However, I don't think that JKR has any particular distinctions between them in mind. (Incidentally, draft and draught are the variant spellings of the same word.) The reason I think they are used with identical meanings is that JKR tends to choose alliterative names. Confusing Concoction, for example, or Swelling Solution, or Deflating Draught. So I think she's chosen the names based on their sound rather than any specific technical meaning of any of the different words for a potion. > 3) Why do you think Snape is so good at Potions? Does it fit his personality? Ooh, what a lovely question. That sort of question could inspire a fanfic author to write an entire story about why Snape is good at Potions. To answer it properly, one would first need to examine what kind of personality traits Potions might require: - patience - absolute precision - discipline Snape certainly has the discipline and drive for perfection that enable him to make any kind of potion. His discipline manifests itself in the books, particularly P/SS, as an ability to maintain control of a class (contrast with Lockhart, Trelawney) and an ability to control himself - a quality I infer from his work as a spy; a spy cannot get by without a certain amount of self-control. His perfectionism can be seen whenever anyone in his class makes a mistake; he cannot tolerate clumsiness, inattention or disorder. Of course, this trait does not improve his teaching skills. Which raises the question of how Dumbledore selects his teachers - does he choose witches and wizards who are at the top of their subject, or those whom he thinks will make good teachers? What sort of training do wizard teachers receive? The other element that divides a person who's merely good at something from someone who's brilliant at it is the enjoyment of that subject. Snape finds a powerful beauty in potions and their making: "I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through the human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses" His lyrical language expresses the excitement he finds in getting a potion exactly right. And it is this above all that makes him so good at Potions. > 4) It should be noted the Madam Pomfrey uses Potions as well (Pepperup Potion); do you think these are drastically different from the kind that Snape prepares? Do you think Snape could prepare "health" potions or does it demand extra training? Is this a silly question? I think that, given the recipe, Snape could make any potion. For example, the Wolfsbane Potion is possibly one that overlaps with 'health', and he makes it. I would have thought that Madam Pomfrey had rather poorer Potion-making skills than Snape. Her expertise would be rather in knowing when to administer a particular potion, and how much of it, and suchlike things. Thoughts from Blaise. From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 11:16:18 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:16:18 -0000 Subject: Hermione's ages In-Reply-To: <9qsua6+b461@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9quaq2+qggn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28019 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Barb" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jonathandupont at h... wrote: > > Anyway, back to the topic - what are these seemingly obvious to > > everyone else reasons why Hermione has to be younger than Harry? To > > go with Occam's razor or whatever its called - the simplest > > explanation is probably the best one. From everything we've seen > > (the school year starting on Septemeber 1st and so on) Hogwarts > > does follow the British school system. Would they really know how > > bright Hermione is anyway? And, another point, maybe the reason she > > knows so much is because she's been preparing for this for so long - > > she's got herself very psyched up, so to speak, and tried to learn > > as much as possible. > > Despite the seeming-similarity between GCSE's (formerly O-levels, I > believe) and O.W.L.s, and between N.E.W.T.s and A-levels, I don't > believe the wizarding school system has been rigidly based upon the > British version. There are enough differences between the wizard and > Muggle worlds that I hardly think they would concern themselves with > conventions important to non-wizards. The wizarding world also > changes very, very slowly. I think the similarities in tests are an > in-joke JKR provided for British readers, and she's probably also > harking back to her own days in school. () > Given that the cut-off in our local school district has changed in my > relatively short lifetime from January 1 to September 1 and the slow > rate of change in wizarding society, I find it doubtful that there is > a September 1 cutoff for Hogwarts. Unless my memory really is terrible - didn't JKR use to be a teacher? Thus she would be very used to this sort of thing. GCSEs and A-Levels haven't been around for a thousand years either - why discount them as an injoke for modern readers but not allow the starting date to be the same? Wizarding society may be slow to change - but it does mirror our society very well (Grindelward / WW2, fire / telephone, Quidditch & Quodpot / football & boring American sports (sorry), something to come / Internet (a fairly new addition) and so on). In the school the pattern of uniforms, houses, prefects, exams ALL match a normal school. Thus cut-off date... > At any rate, there a couple of other possible reasons for why > Hermione might be born in September of 1980 rather than 1979: > > 1) She could already have been slightly ahead in her Muggle school. > Given her academic prowess at Hogwarts, this is hardly a leap. It > fits with her character perfectly. Hogwarts is probably in the > practice of sending acceptance letters to any magical child who will > turn eleven during the calendar year, and if the parents prefer to > wait a year for a child to begin, so be it. This would be "Hogwarts > Deferred Acceptance." I think I already argued against this - I don't see that much co- operation between Muggle & wizard schools - and in real life it is very unusual to go up a year early into secondary school. > 2) She could have received her letter and (hopefully) a visit from > McGonagall or Sprout or someone else reassuring and non-threatening > to introduce the Granger family to the idea of the magical world and > Hermione's place in it despite Hermione still having one more year to > go in Muggle primary school. Preparing for choosing your secondary school up to a year early is not unusual - and this school needs a LOT of preparation (just to get used to the idea). If they don't give the parents enough notice surely they'll waist their time trying to find another school for their child? > The Grangers might very well have > decided to send her to Hogwarts anyway because a) Hermione is very > bright and probably had already read all of her texts for the > following year of school in the first week of summer holidays; or b) > Hogwarts does not seem to place much store in students learning > Muggle things such as world capitals and French irregular verbs and > quadratic formulae, so Hermione forgoing her final year of Muggle > school would hardly seem a loss to McGonagall/Sprout, who would urge > the Grangers to let her begin her magical studies immediately. I disagree - from all we've seen, in Hogwarts you need to be able to read and write well (admittedly something Hermione would have no trouble with), world capitals - well, Dumbedore is trying to promote international cooperation right?, and maths would probably be a good start for arithmancy. I will concede that a bright child will probably learn next to nothing in Year 6 (will have done it all in the years before) - but going to boarding school is a big step, when it would be helpful if the child was as mature as possible, right? The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Hermione has been preparing for her first day of Hogwarts for a long time - that's why she knows so much. Oh, and French irregular verbs / quadratic formulae? Not at primary school... You don't learn any French or formulae at all at primary school (yes, I know I'm being pedantic). > 3) JKR might not have had any contact with school friends with > birthdays after September 1 and may not have been aware that this was > the cut-off. > --Barb She was a teacher, she has a baby daughter, and apparently she's obsessed enough to try and correct the amount of ns that should be used in "ennervate". I think JKR equally has a thing for details - I can't see her just deciding it arbitarily. Jon From r_deutsch at msn.com Sun Oct 21 11:02:10 2001 From: r_deutsch at msn.com (Rena D.) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 04:02:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28020 I think you're quite right Rowena. I was *lol* when I read the statements Hermione could have given to her parents. I can totally imagine Hermione not telling her parents of the "horrors" at school. I do think though that she sends letters to her parents using regular mail. I'm sure the school owls are trained to drop of a letter in a mail box in a nearby town. Maybe they even take them to the Granger's house and leave it at their mailbox. In SS Harry's first letter comes through the mail slot. While the Grangers may not have an opportunity to send a letter to their daughter, Hermione certainly can send one out. Just my two knuts Rena ----- Original Message ----- From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch Something tells me Hermione is less than totally honest about what happens during termtime at Hogwarts.....;)Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From r_deutsch at msn.com Sun Oct 21 11:07:26 2001 From: r_deutsch at msn.com (Rena D.) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 04:07:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin and Baby Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28021 I think that happened for two reasons: 1. he was afraid of what would happen when he turned into a werewolf and Harry was in the house and unprotected. (how do you tell a toddler he has to stay in his room because there's a werewolf running about at night) 2. Dumbledoore invoked a special spell, and it may only work in conjunction with Harry being at his relatives, so that Harry would be protected from Voldemort as long as he is under the care of his aunt and uncle. Rena ----- Original Message ----- From: Dazzle987 at aol.com Hi, This is the first time I have posted something so bear with me, but as I was reading Prisoner of Azakaban it got me thinking... why didn't Lupin ever try to take Harry when he was a baby? He was the only one left of the four, and it was his best's friend's son. I don't know if this has been discused before, but I would be interested to hear some different opinions of the subject. : ) BeckyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From r_deutsch at msn.com Sun Oct 21 11:29:16 2001 From: r_deutsch at msn.com (Rena D.) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 04:29:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] That Wacky Prefect Debate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28022 Just how many prefects are there? 2 per house? or 4? (2 from 5th year, 2 from 6th year) how many head boy and girls are there? 1 each or 1 each per house? I think that neither Ron nor Harry will be prefects, but that Neville will be one. He may be clumsy, but don't underestimate that boy. Rena ----- Original Message ----- From: andrea mcpherson talia chambers Perhaps Cho Chang will become a prefect if it isn't Hermione.That might buildher as a character.From AndreaGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From r_deutsch at msn.com Sun Oct 21 11:40:22 2001 From: r_deutsch at msn.com (Rena D.) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 04:40:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS c Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28023 In Chamber of Secrets there is a reference that the chamber had been opened once before, about 50 years back. Hagrid was a 3rd year and Voldemort, aka Tom Riddle a 5th year, making him about 65 years at the time the Chamber is opened a second time. Lily is much younger than that (had she lived) at the most she'd be in her mid forties. Rena ----- Original Message ----- From: scott chatten Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 4:01 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters 4 and 5) sorry never quite caught that... what did you base your assumption on? --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > > > --- scott chatten wrote: > > I assume that since they both went to hogwarts > that > > she was probably a few years under him, > > As I understand it Voldy was at Hogwarts some > thirty odd years before James and Lily's time. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Oct 21 12:50:51 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:50:51 -0000 Subject: Dudley vs Draco In-Reply-To: <20011020152812.26747.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9qugbb+83s5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28024 Hi Rowena. I want you to know that I thought about your posting all night! Here is my response. Some is a bit off topic, but I did bring it back to HP. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: >Adults who grew up in abusive homes are somewhat more likely to become abusers themselves but the majority do not. I beg you not to underestimate free will and moral choice.> I'm not underestimating either of those things. I have just seen, over and over again that people tend to make the same choices that their parents made. Most of my students who become teenage parents have parents who were also teenage parents. Many of my friends who had unhappy childhoods because of how their parents treated them have serious issues now, as adults. I think it all ties in with their own parents. > Dudley is no longer happy. He is being forced to diet, is afraid of being hexed by Harry or his friends and is probably having a hard time at school. JKR is on record as saying his sheltered, spoiled life is over and that it's still not too late for him to change.> Ah, but the only reason Dudley is changing right now is directly because of his parents. They are the ones who have put him on the diet and they are the ones who are no longer giving in to his tantrums, which they created in the first place. > As for Draco, I agree with tillrules. At Hogwarts he has been exposed to different and positive ideas from those at home but continues to hew to his father's party line. He is now deliberately choosing to be bad and I see no signs of that changing.> Draco is definitely choosing to often do the wrong thing, but I still believe that this is what is encouraged at home. He knew his father was one of the DEs harassing the Roberts at the QWC and was counting on his father getting away with it (which he did). Draco is still very much dependent on his father and runs to him at any sign of trouble, no matter how small. Right now, there is no reason for Draco to make a decision that counters what his father does because his lifestyle benefits him. There may come a time when Draco will choose to go against Lucius, but it will not be, IMO, because Draco just decides to do so. Draco will have to see or experience something that will force him to rethink some of his own actions. Even though Draco (like most of us) is responsible for his own behavior and choices, he will have to be faced with something new and quite unpleasant to him for him to change. It won't *just* be his free will. --jenny from ravenclaw, hoping she explained herself better this time but has a feeling Rowena will come along and smash her comments to bits :-) **************************** From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 13:50:59 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:50:59 -0000 Subject: Hermione's ages In-Reply-To: <9quaq2+qggn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qujs3+963d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28025 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jonathandupont at h... wrote: > She was a teacher, she has a baby daughter, and apparently she's > obsessed enough to try and correct the amount of ns that should be > used in "ennervate". I think JKR equally has a thing for details - I can't see her just deciding it arbitarily. > Sure, let's just agree to disagree. Just like you've read all of our points (thanks Barb!!!) and disagree, I've read all of the 1979 points over and over again and disagree as well. Not only that, but I feel that the UK school system arguments are simply not valid in every case--this summer I visited 10-12 primary and first schools and there were a few exceptions to the rule. I *asked* those headteachers, and I chatted with the little students. Perhaps I was imagining things, or perhaps Oxfordshire is just a very, very strange place. Or maybe the rule has only been flexed in the last couple of years... whatever. Let's make this one of the questions we ask JKR the next opportunity we get, okay? --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who has three more pro-1980 points she's saving for later) From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 13:58:05 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:58:05 -0000 Subject: Dean Thomas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9quk9d+u9dp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28026 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Lea Niiniskorpi wrote: > Dean Thomas is not mentioned in PS. He is probably sorted before Lisa Turpin while Harry is studying the people at the High Table, but it is not mentioned in the original edition. I don't know why the american editors have added such things, which are quite irrelevant. > *waves hand frantically, having read PS* Two points of clarification: 1) Dean is mentioned in PS--just not in that scene. 2) The details might have been added in the SS edition to: a) appeal to a wider audience, and b) because it's an aspect of Dean's character we would have learned about anyway. The casting of Alicia Spinnet shows that JKR's ideas of the characters and our ideas of the characters may be diametrically opposed. But in the end, she's the author and she wins. Simple as that. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 21 14:35:26 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:35:26 -0000 Subject: Potions: That Subtle Science In-Reply-To: <9qu8f4+ihet@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qumfe+sioe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28027 Amber wrote: > > 2) What is the difference between a potion, draft, draught, > solution, and concoction? Or is there no distinction and they are > simply arbitrary names? > Blaise wrote: >I don't > think that JKR has any particular distinctions between them in mind. > (Incidentally, draft and draught are the variant spellings of the > same word.) The reason I think they are used with identical meanings > is that JKR tends to choose alliterative names. Confusing > Concoction, for example, or Swelling Solution, or Deflating Draught. Blaise, I hadn't thought of that very good idea, and a lot of the names of potions are quite catchy, aren't they? But there are a few of potions that don't fit the formula if JKR intends to choose alliterative names, though. For instance, we are told of a Sleeping Potion and a Sleeping Draught, but never a Sleeping Solution; Skele- gro Potion, not Skele-gro Solution; Sleek-easy Potion, not Sleek-easy Solution. While I'm back on the subject, I have to issue a quick L.O.O.N. Alert to an error in the theory that potions are temporary and don't require an antidote. In GoF, Fred and George used an Aging Potion, grew beards, and were sent to Madam Pomfrey. I originally said Fred and George would have lost their beards in time, but went to Madam Pomfrey to speed things along. That explanation, as it turns out, is quite lame and flatly wrong. Fred and George didn't grow beards as a result of the Aging Potion; they got beards when they attempted to cross the age line. So the Aging Potion apparently works like other potions -- F and G tell us they ingested a drop each, the potion gives you the "aura" or perhaps the feeling of being older, and wears off without an antidote. Perhaps if they had consumed a whole lot of Aging Potion, it would have changed their outward appearance also. Cindy From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 16:09:52 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:09:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione's ages In-Reply-To: <9qujs3+963d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qus0g+b65e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28028 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony" wrote: > > Sure, let's just agree to disagree. Just like you've read all of our > points (thanks Barb!!!) and disagree, I've read all of the 1979 > points over and over again and disagree as well. Not only that, but > I feel that the UK school system arguments are simply not valid in > every case--this summer I visited 10-12 primary and first schools and > there were a few exceptions to the rule. I *asked* those > headteachers, and I chatted with the little students. Perhaps I was > imagining things, or perhaps Oxfordshire is just a very, very strange > place. Or maybe the rule has only been flexed in the last > couple of years... whatever. Fair enough. > Let's make this one of the questions we ask JKR the next opportunity > we get, okay? > > --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who has three more pro-1980 points she's saving > for later) Right... next time I happen to bump into JKR I'll be sure to ask her... Seriously, the next lot of net chats aren't likely to start till OoP time, which is who knows when - probably a long wait. Jon (who is also aware of the pro-1980 point that Dumbledore implies that she's younger - and is surprised that nobody brought it up again). From degroote at altavista.com Sun Oct 21 17:03:06 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 21 Oct 2001 10:03:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: apparation at Hogwarts Message-ID: <20011021170306.17884.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28029 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From degroote at altavista.com Sun Oct 21 17:23:42 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 21 Oct 2001 10:23:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's descendants...and Dumbledore's truthfulness Message-ID: <20011021172342.14272.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28030 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 18:33:47 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:33:47 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Alicia In-Reply-To: <9quk9d+u9dp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qv4eb+dos9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28031 Ebony wrote: >The casting of Alicia > Spinnet shows that JKR's ideas of the characters and our ideas of the > characters may be diametrically opposed. Or not. I didn't have much of a mental picture of Alicia or Katie, but when I saw the actors I said "perfect!" (Angelina I did have a clear mental picture of, and the actress isn't quite right. ) Your point is a good one. Some things about characters' looks might be important to JKR, some not. If they had made this movie before GF came out, we might well be saying "Angelina's black? That's not how I pictured her!" but she would be so because JKR had already decided she was black. In other cases, JKR might have told the casting director, "go for it, I know what Terence Higgs looks like in my head but there's nothing in the books about it, and you can feel free to use your own imagination." Amy Z From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 18:41:16 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:41:16 -0000 Subject: Floo powder at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20011021170306.17884.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <9qv4sc+n13m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28032 Vicky/Kitty wrote: > Clearly, they can travel by floo! In PoA Snape calls Lupin to his office via floo powder. Since most every room has a fireplace, this would be pretty good way to get around. I bet it's by invitation only though. Whatever Snape sends to Lupin (some kind of floo powder) summons him. I can just see the scene if Lupin tried to show up in Snape's office without permission--yikes. Probably anyone who tries showing up in Snape's fireplace without having been invited hits 4-foot spikes on his/her way down. Amy Z From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Oct 21 18:58:06 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:58:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's descendants...and Dumbledore's truthfulness In-Reply-To: <9qqg31+6728@eGroups.com> References: <9qqg31+6728@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <51239366250.20011021115806@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28033 Friday, October 19, 2001, 5:21:53 PM, lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com wrote: lnfc> Dumbledore's quite a bit deeper than people give him credit for, and lnfc> I can't shake the feeling he's hiding something. I don't have my copy lnfc> of PoA handy, but there were some lines of dialogue after the escape lnfc> of Black that got me wondering. The bit in _PoA_ when Snape asks Harry if Dumbledore told the full story of James' saving him "or did he think the details would be too tramatic for famous Harry Potter's precious nerves?" (too lazy to look up the exact quote) ... That bit of sarcasm makes me wonder if there are *many* things D is not telling Harry, that S thinks it would be better to tell him frankly and openly. (We *know* he refuses to tell him yet why V wanted to kill him so badly.) -- Dave From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 21 18:59:17 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:59:17 -0000 Subject: Floo powder at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9qv4sc+n13m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qv5u5+mgpb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28034 Vicky/Kitty wrote: > > > Clearly, they can travel by floo! In PoA Snape calls Lupin to his > office via floo powder. Since most every room has a fireplace, this > would be pretty good way to get around. > Amy wrote: > I bet it's by invitation only though. Whatever Snape sends to Lupin > (some kind of floo powder) summons him. I can just see the scene if > Lupin tried to show up in Snape's office without permission-- yikes. > Probably anyone who tries showing up in Snape's fireplace without > having been invited hits 4-foot spikes on his/her way down. I doubt we'll see a whole lot of travel by Floo Powder at Hogwarts. It would defeat the whole purpose of having passwords for access to common rooms, because amorous students could just Floo right into each others waiting arms. And imagine the security concerns if students could just Floo out of the school straight to Hogsmead without a permission slip. Filch's careful check of who is leaving for Hogsmead suggests Hogwarts is probably not connected to the Floo Network. BTW, has anyone ever figured out how that "head in the fireplace" business that Sirius and Mr. Diggory do really works? Is that Floo powder, or a charm, or a potion, or a form of apparating, or what exactly? Cindy C (wondering if, in PS/SS when Hagrid tells Harry he "flew" to the rock on the sea, Hagrid really said he "floo" there and Harry misunderstood) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Oct 21 19:00:13 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:00:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] apparation at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <170239493136.20011021120013@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28035 Friday, October 19, 2001, 2:37:15 PM, andrea mcpherson talia chambers wrote: amtc> So either all houseelves can "apparate" in their own brand of magic in order amtc> to get to their chores quicker or they can only do this if they are free amtc> like Dobby. What kind of magic is it that strikes terror even into V's right hand man? (Dobby threatening LM at end of CoS) -- Dave From nethilia at yahoo.com Sun Oct 21 20:00:39 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Tasha--Nethilia) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Potions: That Subtle Science In-Reply-To: <1003554309.76979.1411.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20011021200039.71120.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28036 > 1) Ive asked this before, but I thought Id ask it > again. Besides the > magical quality of the ingredients themselves, there > doesnt seem to be any > overt magic used in the making of a potion. Do you > think that if a Muggle > were to prepare a potion correctly, it would work? > If not, why not? Possibly. Potions sounds like a mix of chemistry and cooking class. But there is powerful magic in it. After all magic works on Muggles, look at Memory Charms. but I don't think a Muggle would do too well. Not a Muggle born of course, just a muggle. > 2) What is the difference between a potion, draft, > draught, solution, and > concoction? Or is there no distinction and they are > simply arbitrary names? > (I wouldnt know, I struggled quite a bit in > chemistry class in school!) LOL me too. I think there's probably a difference in how they look or are made: (warning: The next part is all arbitrary) drafts being siphoned off, draughts being the part not siphoned off (like curds and whey in these cases, drafts being curds and draughts being whey), Solutions is when everything is mixed together thouroughly (as opposed to suspentions, where the stuff can separate into distinct parts easily when left to sit, like Italian dressing), and a conconction being a merging of two other potions premade. > 3) Why do you think Snape is so good at Potions? > Does it fit his > personality? yup! Snape sounds like a cold, precise person (don't throw hexs at me! he is cold!) and a perfectionist to boot. > 4) It should be noted the Madam Pomfrey uses Potions > as well (Pepperup > Potion); do you think these are drastically > different from the kind that > Snape prepares? Do you think Snape could prepare > health potions or does it > demand extra training? Is this a silly question? I think that all mediwitches within reason are probably good at potions, so that they can make certain regularly used ones. I like to think a lot of jobs in the magic world require strenghts ie. Medicine requires knowlegde of poitions, curses and counter curses; aurors are good at spells and DADA, etc. > 5) Would you personally enjoy Potions class? Forget > about controversial > Snape for the moment, what about the actual class > itself? Yes, I liked chemistry even though I was horrible at it. I would probably make mistakes, but such is life. > 6)Fun Question: If you could make up a potion, what > would be its name, what > would it do, and what ingredients would go into it? Probaby a color changing potion--you take it and your hair changes colors for a week like a kaliedeoscope. I would definately use unicorn something--probably horn. Very expensive, that stuff. > ~Amber > (Please, please, please, please, please, someone > respond!) done and done =D --Neth ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- 79% obsessed with Harry Potter Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From taboulica at yahoo.com.au Sun Oct 21 20:09:41 2001 From: taboulica at yahoo.com.au (taboulica at yahoo.com.au) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:09:41 -0000 Subject: Help! How to get into chat? Message-ID: <9qva25+h2ua@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28037 So rare is it for me to be awake at this hour, my first thought when I woke and saw 5:51 on my clock was not "Hey, great, I can join the HP4GU chat!" but "What's wrong with my alarm clock?" However, I am here and logged on, and trying to enter the chat... how do I do this?? Tabouli. From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 22:19:32 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:19:32 -0000 Subject: lexicon question (Dean Thomas) In-Reply-To: <9qr874+7g29@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qvhlk+pg1p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28038 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennifer" wrote: > > I was reading in the Lexicon and found this line: > > Dean Thomas: "...a Black boy, even taller than Ron (SS..." > > > When in the books is it said that he is tall? I've tried to find it > but I couldn't. I'm pretty intested in Dean :) Um, you cut off the reference --> "than Ron (SS..." SS is Sorceror's Stone. You cut off the page number; viz. page 122 in the American edition. The full sentence reads: "Thomas, Dean," a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table. ....Craig From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Oct 21 22:38:49 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:38:49 -0000 Subject: blond/murder-Lily/Phoenix/Gray Lady/Prefect/Potions/Ron In-Reply-To: <9qreff+pu2a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9qvipp+9aun@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28039 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Doseylel wrote: > > > 1. Has it occurred to anyone out there that all of the blond > > characters in the books are antagonists? Petunia, Dudley, Draco > > and his mother, Lockhart, Rita Skeeter (younger, in the > > pensieve), the veelas (including Fleur). I don't recall any of > > the good guys as being blond. Just curious. > > Yes, JKR is so repetitive about making bad guys blond (not all the > bad guys are blond, but NONE of the good guys are) that I suspect > that her ex-husband was blond. Not to suggest that there are no blond Portuguese, but I think the stats are against Jorge Arantes being blond. If someone can find a picture, that would of course settle the matter, but my inclination is to doubt that he's a blond.... ....Craig From bsmjs at csu.edu Sun Oct 21 22:44:27 2001 From: bsmjs at csu.edu (bsmjs at csu.edu) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:44:27 -0000 Subject: Icons and how to use them Message-ID: <9qvj4b+3n7p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28040 I'm hoping this isn't considered OT, but I just downloaded the icon zip file and would love to use them....but not quite sure how. My computer is running Windows ME if that makes a difference. Thanks in advance. J. From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 00:12:25 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011022001225.56605.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28041 Ah! now I see I was just under a blind assumption thanks for clearing that up. So is it at all possible that James and Lily had a similar relationship to Hagrid as Harry does?? And now for one of the faq list. What is the true reason that Voldemort for killing James and Lily in the first place??? oh well no need to respond to this. Scott --- "Rena D." wrote: > In Chamber of Secrets there is a reference that the > chamber had been opened once before, about 50 years > back. Hagrid was a 3rd year and Voldemort, aka Tom > Riddle a 5th year, making him about 65 years at the > time the Chamber is opened a second time. Lily is > much younger than that (had she lived) at the most > she'd be in her mid forties. > > Rena > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: scott chatten > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 4:01 PM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's > Reluctance to Kill Lily (WAS Summaries: PS chapters > 4 and 5) > > sorry never quite caught that... what did you base > your assumption on? > > --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch > wrote: > > > > > > --- scott chatten wrote: > > > I assume that since they both went to hogwarts > > that > > > she was probably a few years under him, > > > > As I understand it Voldy was at Hogwarts some > > thirty odd years before James and Lily's time. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of > Lord > > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we > are > > united, as weak as we are divided. > > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > > trust. Differences of habit and language are > > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > > hearts are open." > > > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for > details. > > > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > > Files! > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > > > Unsubscribing? Email > > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Get more from the > Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord > Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are > united, as weak as we are divided. > "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and > enmity is very great. We can fight it only by > showing an equally strong bond of friendship and > trust. Differences of habit and language are > nothing at all if our aims are identical and our > hearts are open." > > You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > > Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin > Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your > personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at > MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > > Unsubscribing? Email > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From linman6868 at aol.com Mon Oct 22 02:25:06 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:25:06 EDT Subject: PS/SS Chapter 8 Summary and Discussion Q's Message-ID: <166.2aa7655.2904dd82@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28042 PS/SS Chapter 8 Summary and Discussion Questions THE POTIONS MASTER Harry begins his new life as a student at Hogwarts under the scrutiny of curious students of all ages. We are provided with a montage of student life at Hogwarts; the various and quirky staircases, the doors with personalities, the ambulatory portraits, the ghosts, Peeves, Filch and Mrs. Norris, and the classes? Astronomy, Herbology, History of Magic, and Charms are given a brief mention and description. Transfiguration, taught by McGonagall, is described in enough detail to show that Hermione's aggressive passion for learning is no empty show; she is the only one to make progress in turning a match to a needle. Defense Against the Dark Arts (affectionately known around here as DADA) is busy-bookwork under Quirrell, whose tremulous demeanor and silly purple turban (the one JKR said Snape refused to wear) further add to the cavalier attitude students adopt toward the class. Harry is rather relieved that he isn't "miles behind" the other students, and by the time Friday rolls around, he and Ron are able to find their way to the breakfast table without getting lost (I'm coming to appreciate this feat, as I've recently discovered on a trip to Bloomington, Indiana that my campus-navigating skills leave MUCH to be desired - and I don't even have to deal with moving staircases!) The only class they haven't been to is Double Potions, which they share with the Slytherins. Ron comments that he's heard scuttlebutt to the effect that Snape favors his own students over other houses, and wishes, with the opportunistic philosophy that increases with Harry and Ron book to book, that McGonagall would equally favor the Gryffindors. They are interrupted by Hedwig bringing Harry his first mail. It's a note from Hagrid asking him to tea after Potions is finished. It turns out to be the last bright spot of the afternoon, because Potions turns out to be a nightmare which, it is all to clear, is going to last about seven years. Snape doesn't just dislike Harry, he hates him. Down in the dungeons, Snape sneers openly at Harry's name on the roll, gives a very silky and eloquent speech about the allure of Potions, and then proceeds to grill Harry about things which apparently only Hermione knows. Snape takes a point from Gryffindor for this, and class begins. Only Malfoy, apparently, can do no wrong, and Snape seems to be delighted with him. He also seems to be equally delighted with the opportunity to snarl at Neville for melting his first cauldron (he's up to six now, as I recall). He takes another point from Harry for not helping Neville (he later takes points from Hermione for doing just that in PoA). After the debacle of Potions, Harry and Ron go to visit Hagrid, who introduces them to Fang and makes them at home in his cabin. He serves them tea and rock cakes ("extremely aptly named," as Connie Willis's Ned Henry says). Harry and Ron are glad to hear that Hagrid also detests Filch and Mrs. Norris. When Harry tries to relate Snape's particular hatred of him, Hagrid changes the subject and begins asking Ron about his brother Charlie. Harry is distracted by a clipping on the table from the Daily Prophet, which informs him that the robbery at Gringotts which Ron told him about actually occurred on his birthday, and (Harry puts two and two together) might even concern the grubby package that Hagrid had only just removed while with Harry. Harry asks Hagrid about it, but Hagrid stonewalls him. Harry and Ron return to the castle for dinner. Harry ponders: "Had Hagrid collected that package just in time? Where was it now? And did Hagrid know something about Snape that he didn't want to tell Harry?" DUM-DUM-DUMMMMMM?. Tune in next time?[radio-play organ music] Discussion Questions: 1. Hedwig comes to Harry with an unsolicited note from Hagrid. How? Do owls instinctively know when people want to send mail to their owners? Or did Hagrid go up to the Owlery and choose her, knowing she was Harry's? Once Hedwig got to know Harry, she did know enough to visit Hermione and pick up Harry's birthday present in PoA. [side note: I bet owls would be smart enough to refuse to deliver Anthrax letters.] 2. How does Hagrid know Harry and Ron have Friday afternoons off? Perhaps all students, or all first-years, do?.? 3. Why is there such enmity between Hagrid and Filch? Why does Filch put Mrs. Norris up to following Hagrid everywhere inside the castle? 4. Why doesn't Hagrid want Harry to know that Snape hates him? Why couldn't he have just said, "Snape has some Issues. They'll sort themselves out eventually." This would not have betrayed Hagrid's confidence in a teacher, and it would have satisifed Harry's questions for a while -- maybe. Of course, it would have taken a bit of impetus from Harry's interest in detective work, but still, I'm curious to know why Hagrid is being coy; it doesn't seem necessary. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From linman6868 at aol.com Mon Oct 22 02:31:00 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:31:00 -0000 Subject: D'oh! Anticipating the LOONs In-Reply-To: <166.2aa7655.2904dd82@aol.com> Message-ID: <9r00d4+97vq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28043 I wrote: > It turns out to be > the last bright spot of the afternoon, because Potions turns out to > be a > nightmare which, it is all to clear, is going to last about seven > years. That should be "it is all *too* clear." And I'm never using Microsoft Word for this stuff again, as it puts funky HTML code where ellipses ought to be. Lisa, going off muttering. Where's my Xanax? From taradiane at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 05:20:39 2001 From: taradiane at yahoo.com (tara diane) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arabella Figg and the female DADA teacher Message-ID: <20011022052039.95098.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28044 Hello! I was browsing through the lexicon tonight looking up rumours/facts about book five and had a thought: JK says that we'll be seeing Arabella in the 5th book and find out all about her. She also mentions a female DADA teacher. Could Mrs. Figg turn out to be the new DADA teacher? Assuming she's part of the protection provided while Harry's with the Dursley's, she must have some knowledge and/or practice with the dark arts. Just a thought.... Tara __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Oct 22 12:20:01 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:20:01 -0000 Subject: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions Message-ID: <9r12tl+du5l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28045 Hallo everybody, here's the topic summary due for today, I hope you enjoy it. ATTENTION: Don't read when hungry- catastrophic results guaranteed!! FOOD AND DRINK IN THE POTTERVERSE- TOPIC SUMMARY AND QUESTIONS In one of her many interviews, JKR said that wizards generally live longer than Muggles. After a thorough research about food in the Potterverse and, above all, its magical part, the only possible conclusion is that Wizards don't have problems with cholesterol, otherwise their life span would be considerably shorter than that of the average Muggle. Let's have a look at what Hogwarts students are served at lunch, dinner and feasts (excluding Christmas): Pumpkin juice is the only drink ever mentioned for the students Roast beef, roast chicken, fried sausages, stew, tripe (which McGonagall ironically offers Trelawney), pork chops, shepherd's pie, steak, Cornish pasties, lamb chops, sausages, bacon and steak, steak and kidney pudding, steak and kidney pie, black pudding, sandwiches (chicken and ham, for Harry and Ron in CoS); bread, marshmallows and crumpets (Harry and Ron roast them over the Common room fire during the Christmas holidays in PS/SS), baked pumpkin (at Halloween), roast potatoes, jacket potatoes, boiled potatoes, mashed potatoes, chips Yorkshire Pudding, peas, sprouts, carrots, gravy, ketchup, custard tart, Mint Humbugs, ice cream, apple pies, treacle tart, Spotted Dick, chocolate ?clairs, chocolate gateau, jam doughnuts, Trifle, strawberries, jelly, rice pudding In GoF, when the foreign students arrive, two non-British dishes appear on the tables: Bouillabaisse and "some kind of strange blancmange" Breakfast is a little healthier, it becomes more understandable, though, why the students mostly sleep in Professor Binns's classes: Porridge, rolls, orange juice, kippers, eggs and bacon, toast, buttered toast with jam, corn flakes. Again, no fresh fruit, no yoghurt And then, there are of course the Christmas treats: Turkey, Chipolatas, thick rich gravy, cranberry sauce, turkey sandwiches (for tea), Christmas pudding, eggnog, crumpets, Trifle, Christmas cake. And when it gets really cold in the winter, the House Elves supply teachers and students with warming stews and savoury puddings- no wonder that Fleur Delacours criticizes "zis `eavy `ogwarts food". QUESTION 1: Why do neither teachers nor students ever eat: Rice, pasta, fish, salad, fresh fruit (with the exception of strawberries)? They live on a diet of the most heavy and unhealthy food imaginable- just think what teaching or being taught three hours in the afternoon with your stomach full of Steak and Kidney pie and Trifle must be like! For this massive assault of calories and cholesterol, students can prepare themselves already in Diagon Alley at Florian Fortecues Ice Cream Parlour and on the Hogwarts Express and, when they have their Hogsmeade weekends, there is no danger of eventually ingesting some healthy food. The lunch trolley on the train and Honeyduke's offer the following, mouth-watering articles: Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans, Drooble's Best Blowing Gum, chocolate frogs, pumpkin pasties, cauldron cakes, Liquorice Wands, Pepper Imps, chocolate balls full of strawberry mousse and clotted cream, Sugar Quills, tooth flossing string mints, Jelly Slugs, nougat, coconut ice, toffees, Fizzing Whizbees, ice mice, peppermint toads, blood flavoured lollipops, Cockroach Cluster, fudge flies, Acid Pops, sherbet balls, pumpkin tart and ice creams and sundaes of various flavours. (The Cockroach Cluster is the only Monty Python citation I recognized in the books!) After so many sweets, a wizard needs a drink and goes to the Three Broomsticks, where Madam Rosmerta will serve him or her Butterbeer, Red Currant Rum, Gillywater, cherry syrup and soda with ice and umbrella and mulled mead. If the food at Hogwarts, Hogsmeade and on the train is life- threatening, wizards at least are reasonable enough to cut back a little on alcohol. Alcoholic beverages are mentioned very rarely, there is Hagrid who evidently gets drunk from time to time, Draco tells Harry so when they first meet at Madam Malkin's (PS/SS), and this rumour is confirmed in PoA, when Hagrid tries to drown his grief about Buckbeak in large tankards full of what we can suppose to be either Ogden's Old Firewhisky or mulled mead. Firewhisky is used in GoF to restore Mrs. Weasley's shattered nerves after the QWC, Gilderoy Lockhart has other preferences for his birthday present, but wouldn't say no to a bottle of Ogden's. Butterbeer seems to be very slightly alcoholic (at least enough to knock out a House Elf), but is allowed to the students on their Hogsmeade weekends. On special occasions, like the dinner before the QWC, the grownups drink elderflower wine and, at Christmas, eggnog is served at the staff table of Hogwarts. On the whole, alcohol is not too popular in the wizarding world and when we first meet the Death Eaters, having "fun" with the Robertsons after the QWC, Mr. Weasley suspects them of having drunk too much. Students have to stick to pumpkin juice, orange juice at breakfast and there is also milk on the breakfast table, but obviously not for drinking(at least it is never mentioned that any of the students does), probably they pour it over the cornflakes. And then there is of course tea: Surprisingly not at breakfast, but as "social drink" in the afternoon: HRH several times have tea with Hagrid, Harry drinks tea with Lupin, at Christmas, there is no dinner but some kind of High Tea, Minister Fudge has tea with Harry at the beginning of PoA at the Leaky cauldron, Percy precipitously offers his boss, Mr.Crouch, a cup of tea at the QWC. QUESTION 2: What do you think of the attitude towards the "popular drugs" coffee, nicotine and alcohol JKR confers to us by means of her books (cigarettes are never mentioned, alcohol mostly has unpleasant consequences and nobody ever drinks coffee in the wizarding world)? A clear message for Muggles like us or a sign that wizards are simply different and don't need certain things? Then, we have two examples of "individual cooking" with various degrees of success: Hagrid doesn't seem to be much of a chef: Neither his baking (rock cakes and bath buns), nor his stoat sandwiches nor his alleged beef casserole (containing a large talon) leave HRH very enthusiastic, whereas Mrs. Weasley does a much better job of her cooking: Home made fudge, home baked mince pies, Christmas cake and nut brittle regularly accompany her children's Christmas presents and at the Burrow, where breakfast is pretty much like at Hogwarts, she prepares a wonderful dinner of chicken and ham pie, boiled potatoes, salad and home made strawberry ice cream before the QWC. An interesting detail is that for once, we are allowed to witness the process of magical cooking, which might be easier as the Sauce B?chamel comes directly out of her wand, but even if you are a witch, things may burn if you lack attention, and the cauliflower shrivels if your husband doesn't arrive in time for dinner . QUESTION 3: What do you think about magical vs. elves' cooking? (Wand vs. elves' magic) Sirius definitely seems to be the healthiest of all wizards, apart from the fact that as a dog he has to eat rats, but when Harry finally brings him and then sends him food by owl, he gets chicken drumsticks, bread, pumpkin juice, ham, cakes and- you won't believe it!- fruit. Before leaving the wizarding part of the Potterverse and looking more closely at the Muggles' eating and drinking habits, there are two more categories worth mentioning: Animal food and ghost food. In all four books, we learn about "normal" and magical animals. As far as the first category is concerned, there are only very few mentions of what they eat, obviously because they don't have different appetites in the Potterverse: Sirius lives on rats while he is hiding as a dog outside Hogsmeade (GoF) and Crookshanks craves spiders and rats (well, Wormtail, but anyway) and owls go hunting (only little Pigwidgeon gets an owl treat from time to time). Magical animals, on the other hand, have slightly disgusting, if not bizarre ways of nurturing themselves: A bucket of brandy mixed with chicken blood every half hour is what makes baby dragons grow strong and healthy, so that they can finally pass to a more consistent diet of dead rats, eaten by the crate. Flobberworms are best fed shredded lettuce, however in small amounts, otherwise they might be in danger of a premature death (PoA). Buckbeak, the Hippogriff, seems to be quite happy when served sufficient quantities of dead ferrets (CONSTANT VIGILANCE, Draco!!) and a varied diet of ant eggs, frog livers and grass snake will obtain astonishing results with Blast Ended Skrewts, whereas the Beauxbatons horses are a little more stylish- they drink exclusively Single Malt Whisky. Ghosts cannot eat, but if food has been exposed to natural rotting processes long enough, it seems that they are at least able to catch some of its aroma: Rotten fish, cakes burned charcoal black, maggoty haggis, cheese covered in furry green mould, cake with grey icing and peanuts covered in fungus are the savoury dishes Sir Nicholas de Mimsy- Porpington offers his guests at the Deathday Party (CoS). QUESTION 4: Where do you think the Fat Lady got her chocolate liquors from? Did they have to be in another painting and she nicked them, or is there a possibility of getting objects like food, but also others into a painting without actually painting them there? Adding the African wizards roasting what seems to be a rabbit over a violet fire, we may now leave the wizarding world and dedicate our attention to Muggle cooking. With very few exceptions, it is exemplified by what Mrs. Dursley prepares for her beloved ones and, surprise, surprise, it explains all too well why Dudley resembles a baby whale and Uncle Vernon is porky: Baby Dudley eats cereals, breakfast consists of bacon, fried eggs and toast, accompanied with tea, only when Dudley finally has to lose weight, breakfast is drastically reduced to a quarter of a grapefruit each. The same goes for their diet lunch, consisting of cottage cheese and grated celery. We have two examples of dinners, one for Uncle Vernon's business partner and the other for Aunt Marge, the latter is just described as "fancy dinner", washed down with wine and followed by coffee and brandy, the first one has roast pork as main course and the famous cake covered in whipped cream and sugared violets as dessert. This dinner, too, is followed by coffee and after dinner mints. This in itself would be enough to shape Vernon's and Dudley's exuberant forms, but the final touch is added by various snacks, beginning with Dudley's favourites: Fizzy drinks, Burgers (to be eliminated from the fridge when his diet starts) and ice cream (including first a large chocolate ice cream and then one and a half Knickerbockers Glories at the zoo). To gain enough strength for his daily responsibilities at Grummning's, Uncle Vernon has to eat doughnuts (PS/SS) and fruit cake. Only when he is in a state of total panic, trying to escape the flood of letters from Hogwarts (PS/SS), food becomes of secondary importance to him: For the night in the hut he treats his family to a package of crisps and a banana each, which won't feel ickle Duddydums' stomach after a breakfast of stale cornflakes, toast and cold tinned tomatoes at the hotel. Harry mostly eats with the Dursleys, but they never give him enough and things get worse when he is punished: In CoS he has to be satisfied with two slices of bread and a lump of cheese after a day of hard work in house and garden and when they lock him in his room, all he gets for dinner is tinned soup which Petunia doesn't even bother to warm up. QUESTION 5: Vernon and Dudley Dursley are fat. Aunt Petunia is skinny, in spite of sharing the same meals. So far, we haven't heard of fat wizards, albeit their food is, to say the least, hypercaloric. Might this be an indication that Petunia is the one with yet unrecognized magical powers? QUESTION 6: Do you think there might be a constitutional difference between wizards and Muggles? Do wizards have a better metabolism that prevents them from becoming obese? Don't they need vitamins? Susanna/pigwidgeon37 (HUNGRYYYYYY!!!!) From vheggie at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 13:35:38 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (Vanessa) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:35:38 -0000 Subject: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9r12tl+du5l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r17ba+df6u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28046 [snipped: much of a really good essay!] > > QUESTION 1: Why do neither teachers nor students ever eat: Rice, > pasta, fish, salad, fresh fruit (with the exception of strawberries)? They live on a diet of the most heavy and unhealthy food imaginable I think a simple explanation works best; the food is described from Harry's POV (I know it's a cop-out...but...). there may well be steaming bowls of brussel sprouts, roast parsnips, and side salads, but he's hardly likely to notice these in comparison to the roasts and puddings. (We also don't get a blow by blow account of every-day meals very often, for all we know they do have a curry every Tuesday, and fish on Fridays) The same is true in real life - I remember, when my mum used to ask me what I had had for school dinners, I'd reply "Fish fingers" or "burgers", without a mention of the peas, mashed potatos, sweetcorn, etc. > > QUESTION 2: What do you think of the attitude towards the "popular > drugs" coffee, nicotine and alcohol JKR confers to us by means of her books (cigarettes are never mentioned, alcohol mostly has unpleasant consequences and nobody ever drinks coffee in the wizarding world)? A clear message for Muggles like us or a sign that wizards are simply different and don't need certain things? I think some of this may be due (wait for it) to Harry's POV. At my secondary school (that's 11 - 18) I know for a fact that several of the teachers used to imbibe in the lunchhour at the local pub (The Primrose), and many of them were smokers. I didn't, however, find this out untill I was 17 and started frequenting the pub at lunchtime myself, or indeed, untill I was allowed to venture into town during lunchtimes, and would catch the teachers smoking in dingy coffee shops. I would imagine that wizards and witches have their own weaknesses, especially 'magic' tobacco (c.f. Gandalf for details). The teachers at Hogwarts are obviously to professional/cunning to get caught! [skip some Q's] > QUESTION 5: Vernon and Dudley Dursley are fat. Aunt Petunia is > skinny, in spite of sharing the same meals. So far, we haven't heard of fat wizards, albeit their food is, to say the least, hypercaloric. Might this be an indication that Petunia is the one with yet unrecognized magical powers? I think the more likely explanation is that, after running around after Vernon and Dudley, and worrying about Harry, Petunia has a metabolic rate which would outstrip an atheletes'! I can think of several families in which 'well-rounded' men and children are constantly serviced by a haggard, skinny, weary mother, who, even at mealtimes, is constantly getting up to check this or that, worrying about how everyone else is finding the meal, and ends up pushing her food round her plate until it goes cold... > From john at walton.vu Mon Oct 22 13:42:29 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:42:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9r17ba+df6u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28047 Susanna wrote: > QUESTION 1: Why do neither teachers nor students ever eat: Rice, pasta, fish, > salad, fresh fruit (with the exception of strawberries)? They live on a diet > of the most heavy and unhealthy food imaginable As Vanessa said, it's probably because it's from Harry's POV -- he doesn't notice that Hermione Is Pretty, so it's a fair bet he'll not register the stuff on the dinner table he doesn't eat. Also, who would say "ooh, I want to go to Hogwarts" if the meals consisted of Healthy Things? --John ____________________________________________ American Bipartisanship: I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass. John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From vheggie at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 13:49:58 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (Vanessa) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:49:58 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Chapter 8 Summary and Discussion Q's In-Reply-To: <166.2aa7655.2904dd82@aol.com> Message-ID: <9r1866+57sg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28048 [I'm just answering selected Qs today!] > > 2. How does Hagrid know Harry and Ron have Friday afternoons off? Perhaps > all students, or all first-years, do???.? At British Universities, most leave Wednesday afternoons free from lectures for undergraduates, for the purposes of inter-university sporting events - it's not unusual for boarding schools to have scheduled 'free afternoons' for similar purposes - sporting, or amateur dramatics, etc. Sometimes they are in place in order to allow pupils to travel home for the weekend; children at boarding school often start earlier, and finish later than those at day schools - hence the need for extra space for relaxation in the shcedule. It makes sense to try and co-ordinate these free periods within a year, or even within a whole school. > > 3. Why is there such enmity between Hagrid and Filch? Why does Filch put Mrs. Norris up to following Hagrid everywhere inside the castle? Because Hagrid is a student that never left! He hasn't quite the authority of a teacher, but he still gets to drag christmas trees through the place, dropping pine needles everywhere, and tramp about in his muddy boots - not to mention his habit of bringing in dead animals (a cockrel [CoS] and a pole cat [PoA] at least), and Filtch can't touch him...no wonder he sets Mrs Norris to keep an eye on him. On a deeper level, of course, Hagrid 'threw away' an opportunity that Filtch would probably give his right arm to have had. Hagrid was expelled, but instead of being sent away in disgrace, he got to stay on the grounds, with a job of equal, if not more seniority than Filtch's. To a bitter caretaker, this is probably just another example of the inherent prejudice against him... From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 22 13:49:59 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:49:59 -0000 Subject: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9r17ba+df6u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r1867+4u2j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28049 > > QUESTION 2: What do you think of the attitude towards the "popular > > drugs" coffee, nicotine and alcohol JKR confers to us by means of > her books (cigarettes are never mentioned, alcohol mostly has > unpleasant consequences and nobody ever drinks coffee in the > wizarding world)? A clear message for Muggles like us or a sign that > wizards are simply different and don't need certain things? > Wizards have something that Muggles will never have: the Cheering Charm. Why bother with alcohol and such when one well-placed spell will make you giddy? > > > QUESTION 5: Vernon and Dudley Dursley are fat. Aunt Petunia is > > skinny, in spite of sharing the same meals. So far, we haven't > heard of fat wizards, albeit their food is, to say the least, > hypercaloric. Might this be an indication that Petunia is the one > with yet unrecognized magical powers? > It could be due to the time-honored excuse for weight problems that Muggles use: genes. Aunt Marge, like Vernon, is beefy, so Dudley probably gets it from Vernon's side of the family. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 22 13:53:29 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:53:29 -0000 Subject: Quick question about Sirius Message-ID: <9r18cp+fln3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28050 Early in PoA, Sirius find Harry near Privet Drive, and later he reveals that he knows Harry lives with his aunt and uncle. How does he learn this? Does Crookshanks tell him? Does he learn it the night Harry's parents died, and if so, why would he know this if MacGonagall didn't know until Dumbledore told her? Does it have something to do with the missing 24-hours? I swear, I searched the board for the answer to this question and couldn't find it. Sorry. Cindy From frantyck at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 14:05:38 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:05:38 -0000 Subject: Sport... spinoff question In-Reply-To: <9r1866+57sg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r193i+36gu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28051 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vanessa" wrote: > > 2. How does Hagrid know Harry and Ron have Friday afternoons off? > Perhaps > all students, or all first-years, do???.? > > At British Universities, most leave Wednesday afternoons free from > lectures for undergraduates, for the purposes of inter-university > sporting events - it's not unusual for boarding schools to have > scheduled 'free afternoons' for similar purposes - sporting, or > amateur dramatics, etc. So what do all the students who are NOT on their house Quidditch teams do for exercise? Haven't heard of any wand-operated treadmills yet... perhaps in the dungeons somewhere? Do other students all play Quidditch, when the teams are not monopolising the pitch? Do they play soccer or cricket? Apparently not, because wizard children seem to be unaware of soccer (Dean's Muggle poster), and cricket is never mentioned (sacrilege!). Oliver Wood has never heard of basketball. One might claim that this is Harry's POV, and he likely doesn't bother with anything that's not Quidditch, but surely part-Muggle wizards and witches obsess about Muggle sporting pastimes? And for a natural sportsman like Harry, shouldn't other sports also be somehow compelling? Hmm? From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 14:25:38 2001 From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:25:38 -0400 Subject: Chapter Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28052 >2. How does Hagrid know Harry and Ron have Friday afternoons off? Perhaps >all students, or all first-years, do.? Maybe not all students do, but it's fair to assume that all first year Gryffidors do. It shouldn't have been too hard to him to look up their schedual. You could do that sort of thing at my high school, and we didn't even have a magical filing system. ;} >3. Why is there such enmity between Hagrid and Filch? Why does Filch put >Mrs. Norris up to following Hagrid everywhere inside the castle? There are loads of reasons why Filch wouldn't like Hagrid. For one, Hagrid actually has some magic ability, even if he's techincally not allowed to use it. Filch, being a squib, would envy this in any wizard. And while he wouldn't dare to take out his frustrations on a professor, he obviously has no problem doing so with students. Hagrid, being on roughly the same level as Filch, would also make a handy target. >4. Why doesn't Hagrid want Harry to know that Snape hates him? Why >couldn't >he have just said, "Snape has some Issues. They'll sort themselves out >eventually." This would not have betrayed Hagrid's confidence in a >teacher, >and it would have satisifed Harry's questions for a while -- maybe. Of >course, it would have taken a bit of impetus from Harry's interest in >detective work, but still, I'm curious to know why Hagrid is being coy; it >doesn't seem necessary. I think Hagrid has a very definate idea of who the "bad guys" and "good guys" are. And as it evidenced by his attitude towards the Slytherins, he's also an all-or-nothing sort of person. Once someone has his confidence, that confidence is total and unwavering. Dumbledore is someone he trusts implicitly, and since Dumbledore has chosen to trust Snape, so must Hagrid. It's in his nature to assume the best of people (and certain baby dragons and giant spiders) who fit into this category, regardless of evidence otherwise. So, it might not be that Hagrid was hiding anything. Just that he's unwilling to consider that Snape might not always have the best of intentions. Still, I could very easily be wrong. ;} Ali http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From SALeathem at aol.com Mon Oct 22 14:26:23 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:26:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter 8 Summary and Discussion Q's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28053 Hi >Discussion Questions: > 1. Hedwig comes to Harry with an unsolicited note from Hagrid. How? Do owls > instinctively know when people want to send mail to their owners? Or did > Hagrid go up to the Owlery and choose her, knowing she was Harry's? Once > Hedwig got to know Harry, she did know enough to visit Hermione and pick up > Harry's birthday present in PoA. [side note: I bet owls would be smart > enough to refuse to deliver Anthrax letters.] Magic... heh. I would think they have some kind of homing pigeon thing going on, and know where to find everyone their owner wants to send a letter to (and where their owners are). When Harry sends letters to Sirius he doesn't always use Hedwig, yet the owls still know where to go, and how to get back... > 2. How does Hagrid know Harry and Ron have Friday afternoons off? Perhaps > all students, or all first-years, do?.? Well, hagrid works at the school. He has close links with Dumbledore, and he cares about Harry. I would imgaine he made the effort to find out, maybe Dumbledore told him, or maybe he just happend to come across a timetable and saw that Harry has the day off. Being the groundskeeper it's fairly likely that he'd be able to work it out without too much trouble, just be seeing Harry out and about on a friday afternoon would hint that he doesn't have lessons then. > 3. Why is there such enmity between Hagrid and Filch? Why does Filch put > Mrs. Norris up to following Hagrid everywhere inside the castle? Was Filch around when the CoS was originally opened (as a student or otherwise)? He knows Hagrid was expelled, he's suspicious? Or maybe Hagrid's paranoid... > 4. Why doesn't Hagrid want Harry to know that Snape hates him? Why couldn't > he have just said, "Snape has some Issues. They'll sort themselves out > eventually." This would not have betrayed Hagrid's confidence in a teacher, > and it would have satisifed Harry's questions for a while -- maybe. Of > course, it would have taken a bit of impetus from Harry's interest in > detective work, but still, I'm curious to know why Hagrid is being coy; it > doesn't seem necessary. "Issues" sounds like a very American thing to say (to me anyway). It's just not the done thing in the UK to sound like a counsellor. And Hagrid sounds about as English as they come, he's got a very northern accent (Yorkshire/lancashire perhaps...) and it's really not concievable that he'd say such a thing. In keeping with his character, and trying not to worry or upset Harry, he just lies and says he (Snape) doesn't hate Harry. Possibly cos deep down he knows Snape doesn't really (he did save his life after all, and it seems that his real gripe was with James). Also I suspect Hagrid didn't want to appear to be stirring things, if Snape had found out it might have made things difficult for him. Overall I'd say he was being polite, I don't think we hear Hagrid openly bad mouth many teachers at Hogwarts in any of the books. Sara From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 14:46:15 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:46:15 -0000 Subject: How Sirius found Harry (was Quick Question) In-Reply-To: <9r18cp+fln3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r1bfn+50c7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28054 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Early in PoA, Sirius find Harry near Privet Drive, and later he > reveals that he knows Harry lives with his aunt and uncle. How does > he learn this? Does Crookshanks tell him? Does he learn it the > night Harry's parents died, and if so, why would he know this if > MacGonagall didn't know until Dumbledore told her? Does it have > something to do with the missing 24-hours? Good question, and I don't remember it being asked on here either, though I do remember wondering myself. I have four theories: (1) He picked up this info sometime during the year of PA, either from Crookshanks (doubtful, it seems to me) or from spying around. However, he knew enough to look for him in Little Whinging, though, so he must've known at least enough to make an educated guess at the start of PA. So: (2) He could easily have learned where Lily's only sister lived from years of friendship with L. (3) He learned it from Hagrid the night James and Lily died. He asked Hagrid to give him Harry, Hagrid said no, he had orders from Dumbledore--Hagrid could easily have added that he was taking Harry to Lily's sister's. It's the kind of unnecessary information Hagrid would spill, especially since he felt terrible for Sirius and had no suspicion of him at the time. (4) Maybe there's even a magical way he can detect Harry (e.g., relatives can find him and Sirius counts?), though Dumbledore would surely have closed this loophole if he'd known about it. I go for theory #3, myself. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------- "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------------- From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 14:52:02 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:52:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter 8 Summary and Discussion Q's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28055 >From: linman6868 at aol.com Nice Summary! >Discussion Questions: > >1. Hedwig comes to Harry with an unsolicited note from Hagrid. How? Do >owls instinctively know when people want to send mail to their owners? Or >did Hagrid go up to the Owlery and choose her, knowing she was Harry's? >Once Hedwig got to know Harry, she did know enough to visit Hermione and >pick up Harry's birthday present in PoA. Er, honestly, not sure. I've always wondered how the owls could be so intelligent. For some reason, the image of Hagrid in the Owlery doesn't jive with me, although he would be able to pick out Hedwig. Maybe it's a special talent that Hagrid has. We know that he has a wonderful affinity with beasts and animals. Maybe he's so in-tune with them that Hedwig knew that he wanted to send a letter to Harry. Yeah, I know, it's a long-shot but you never know... >[side note: I bet owls would be smart >enough to refuse to deliver Anthrax letters.] *grin* They probably make a quick trip and drop them in the sea or something! >3. Why is there such enmity between Hagrid and Filch? Why does Filch put >Mrs. Norris up to following Hagrid everywhere inside the castle? Heh, might as well ask why is there such enmity between Filch and everyone? Well, they both have similar types of jobs. They're not staff, not "official" wizards. But Hagrid is a wizard and can do magic. A small difference, but enough to drive Filch crazy. >4. Why doesn't Hagrid want Harry to know that Snape hates him? Why >couldn't he have just said, "Snape has some Issues. They'll sort >themselves out eventually." I think that if he would have said the above, Harry would've asked "Issues? What do you mean?". That would've led into quite a discussion, I think. I think Hagrid probably doesn't feel comfortable airing out someone else's past without their permission. I know I would feel a tad uncomfortable about it as well. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Do you think you can cope? You figured me out - I'm lost and I'm hopeless Bleeding and broken - though I've never spoken I come undone - in this mad season" - Matchbox 20, "Mad Season" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 14:56:44 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:56:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28056 >From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it > >QUESTION 6: Do you think there might be a constitutional difference >between wizards and Muggles? Do wizards have a better metabolism that >prevents them from becoming obese? Don't they need vitamins? *grin* Of course they have different metabolisms! Doing magic takes up extra energy! After all, the energy to make something fly across the room, or change the molecular structure of an object must come from somewhere. In other fantasy worlds, there is the idea that there is no such thing as a fat wizard. I think it's the same in JKR's world, even if the idea is a little hidden. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Do you think you can cope? You figured me out - I'm lost and I'm hopeless Bleeding and broken - though I've never spoken I come undone - in this mad season" - Matchbox 20, "Mad Season" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dorothydch at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 15:25:18 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:25:18 -0000 Subject: How Sirius found Harry (was Quick Question) In-Reply-To: <9r1bfn+50c7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r1dou+vk9h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28057 Didn't Hagrid borrow Sirius's motorbike to bring Harry to the Dursley's when he was a baby? Hagrid probly told Sirius then where he was taking Baby Harry on Dumbeldore's orders. Dorothy --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > Early in PoA, Sirius find Harry near Privet Drive, and later he > > reveals that he knows Harry lives with his aunt and uncle. How does > > he learn this? Does Crookshanks tell him? Does he learn it the > > night Harry's parents died, and if so, why would he know this if > > MacGonagall didn't know until Dumbledore told her? Does it have > > something to do with the missing 24-hours? > > Good question, and I don't remember it being asked on here > either, though I do remember wondering myself. I have four theories: > > (1) He picked up this info sometime during the year of PA, either from > Crookshanks (doubtful, it seems to me) or from spying around. > > However, he knew enough to look for him in Little Whinging, though, so > he must've known at least enough to make an educated guess at the > start of PA. So: > > (2) He could easily have learned where Lily's only sister lived from > years of friendship with L. > > (3) He learned it from Hagrid the night James and Lily died. He asked > Hagrid to give him Harry, Hagrid said no, he had orders from > Dumbledore--Hagrid could easily have added that he was taking Harry to > Lily's sister's. It's the kind of unnecessary information Hagrid > would spill, especially since he felt terrible for Sirius and had no > suspicion of him at the time. > > (4) Maybe there's even a magical way he can detect Harry (e.g., > relatives can find him and Sirius counts?), though Dumbledore would > surely have closed this loophole if he'd known about it. > > I go for theory #3, myself. > > Amy Z > > -------------------------------------------------------- > "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. > "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. > -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban > -------------------------------------------------------- From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 22 15:29:34 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:29:34 -0000 Subject: How Sirius found Harry (was Quick Question) In-Reply-To: <9r1bfn+50c7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r1e0u+e2c0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28058 Cindy wrote: > > Early in PoA, Sirius finds Harry near Privet Drive, and later he > > reveals that he knows Harry lives with his aunt and uncle. How does > > he learn this? Does Crookshanks tell him? Does he learn it the > > night Harry's parents died, and if so, why would he know this if > > MacGonagall didn't know until Dumbledore told her? Does it have > > something to do with the missing 24-hours? > Amy wrote: > Good question, and I don't remember it being asked on here > either, though I do remember wondering myself. I have four theories: Thank goodness for that, because I was starting to think I had missed something obvious. > Amy wrote: > (1) He picked up this info sometime during the year of PA, either from > Crookshanks (doubtful, it seems to me) or from spying around. > > However, he knew enough to look for him in Little Whinging, though, so > he must've known at least enough to make an educated guess at the > start of PA. I'm not sure about this theory, either, because Sirius knows enough to find Harry even though Harry is several streets away after having fled the Dursleys. Sirius says, I think, that he deliberately sought Harry out before journeying north to Hogwarts. So he had some good information from somewhere. But then again, Harry mentioned on the Hogwarts Express while Crookshanks was present that he lived with his aunt and uncle (calling them the "Dursleys"), because they discussed the Hogsmead form. (I guess that also solves the mystery of how Sirius knew that Harry needed a Hogsmeade form). > > (2) He could easily have learned where Lily's only sister lived from > years of friendship with L. Well, maybe, I guess. It's a pretty tangential connection, really, because there's not much reason to think Lily talked about Petunia any more than Petunia talked about Lily. And Sirius was close friends with the Potters primarily through James, not Lily. In any event, he would at most learn the town, not the address or street. > > (3) He learned it from Hagrid the night James and Lily died. He asked > Hagrid to give him Harry, Hagrid said no, he had orders from > Dumbledore--Hagrid could easily have added that he was taking Harry to > Lily's sister's. It's the kind of unnecessary information Hagrid > would spill, especially since he felt terrible for Sirius and had no > suspicion of him at the time. Yes, maybe this is the best theory. Sirius did give Hagrid the motorbike, and at that point, Hagrid knew where he was going. Why Hagrid would be more forthcoming with Sirius than MacGonagal is anyone's guess. Perhaps Sirius was saying, "Give him to me, as I'm the godfather," and Hagrid replied that he had to take Harry. To his aunt and uncle. In Little Whinging. On Privet Drive. Which is just a few streets from Magnolia Crescent. > (4) Maybe there's even a magical way he can detect Harry (e.g., > relatives can find him and Sirius counts?), though Dumbledore would > surely have closed this loophole if he'd known about it. OK, then. How about a totally wild theory? Sirius gave Hagrid the flying motorbike, which Hagrid flew to Privet Drive. Maybe Sirius equipped the bike with anti-theft equipment so Sirius would always know where it was. So when he magically saw the bike go to Privet Drive, he worked out that Harry must be there. I told you it was wild. :-) Oh, and I guess there is another possibility. Perhaps when Hagrid went to Azkaban in CoS, he yelled things in his sleep and Sirius heard it. One of Hagrid's more painful memories could have been the night he delivered Harry to Privet Drive. If Hagrid has "loose lips" under normal circumstances, imagine how much he would say with dementors swarming around him. Cindy (deciding that it may be Crookshanks that has loose lips) From mirzamblack at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 16:01:11 2001 From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:01:11 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and the female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <20011022052039.95098.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9r1fs7+5flj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28059 tara diane wrote: > > JK says that we'll be seeing Arabella in the 5th > book and find out all about her. She also > mentions a female DADA teacher. Could Mrs. Figg > turn out to be the new DADA teacher? Assuming > she's part of the protection provided while > Harry's with the Dursley's, she must have some > knowledge and/or practice with the dark arts. > There has been lots of discussion about Arabella and DADA. But I still don't believe in it. And why? In the end of the Goblet of Fire Dumbledore begin to call his group for order. Arabella Figg was one of them. This group may have something else to do than teach children in Hogwarts, I believe. That is why Arabella is not the next DADA teacher, she has something more serious to do. OK, who is the teacher, if it is not Arabella. My guess is, that the teacher is a new character like always and she is the one who is going to brake hearts. In my theory, both Severus and Sirius are going to fall in love with her.. //Mirzam From tillrules at aol.com Mon Oct 22 16:18:29 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:18:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley vs Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28060 In a message dated 10/19/2001 6:03:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, meboriqua at aol.com writes: << Dudley learned at home that it was okay to treat others badly. Dudley is spoiled to the point that he clearly does not know right from wrong. What he has learned is that if he cries loud enough or hits hard enough he will get what he wants. JKR has made it very clear to us that he learned these things from his parents, who are themselves materialistic, impatient, and narrow minded. Uncle Vernon is vicious to Harry; Dudley has been seeing that since they were both babies. Every single behavior Dudley displays has been learned at home I can't completely resolve Dudley, though. Though some of his behaviors were learned at home, he has been exposed to the possibility of other behaviors. He may see the bad bahvior of his parents, but he still has a choice even at that age to not duplicate it. He may be spoiled and have bad parents, but to me that is not enough of an excuse to absolve him of all guilt for being a bully to others (in addition to Harry). Plus, he's very clearly a child who manipulates his parents. As you mentioned, his crying to get what he wants. His parents give him everythgn he wants and stil he wants more. JKR is very celar about his gluttony, both in the sense of eating and and wanting possessions. He throws a tantrum because he only gets the same number of toys for his birthday as the year before. This personal greed and avarice is not soemthign he learned from his parents, but innate. > On Draco: >He's out of the house in a place where his father holds very little sway, b/c of Lucius's relationship with Dumbledore, and he does not change. He has the opportunity to learn new things and interact with others in a way that could overcome whatever racism he learned at home. But this is not the case. He goes out of his way to stay the way he is. > Draco is very clearly proud of his father and his ability to affect things as a powerful figure and brags about it a number of times. In fact, he contacts his father a number of times in the canon to tell him of events happening in the school so his father can act on them (the blast eared skrewts, for example or Buckbeak). In addition, in a conversation with Harry, which has no way of returning to his father, Draco is elated at the return of Voldemort. This is not a kid who is doing things to impress his father or to forestall his father's wrath. He's simply a bad kid.> >How is it possible that Draco is "simply a bad kid" without any input from his parents? I think the same arguments apply to Draco. His father gives him what he wants and is a DE who flaunts it at home. He is TEACHING hate to his son. Draco has learned that living the good life is living the mean life. I don't see Draco as going "out of his way to stay the way he is", I see him as depending on his father for all the answers. Dad likes it that way, too. >But Draco is 14 years old. There is the ability, especially when confronted with a harsh reality of what he has been taught (i.e.... the death of Cedric due to the return of Voldemort), for Draco to learn and maybe grow. But he does not. He exults in Cedric's death. He's happy that Voldemort is back so more violence can happen. Though tinged by the hate he has learned, this is a bile which comes from Draco himself, not simply a rote repetition of his father's doctrine. > However, I don't see Draco or Dudley, for that matter, as just bad kids. I see them both as victims of the parents who are raising them. Dudley is as abused as Harry; overindulgence can be just as damaging as neglect. Draco's father is not teaching his son to stand on his own. Both of these boys have had little choice so far in their lives because they have yet to be in situations (like Harry) where they can really question how they were raised and if their parents were doing the right and good thing in raising them. I think it's admirable that you learned at a young age to not follow your parents' view on race. Most children, unfortunately, do not take a step back and do what you did. Kids whose parents hit them or each other grow up to hit their own kids or be in abusive relationships themselves. The statistics are sadly overwhelming. Draco and Dudley may eventually have changes of heart, but they are now quite young and blissfully happy in their situations. They both believe they are well loved by their parents because they are mistaking their material rewards for love. That's a pretty big lure (I've been there; I know). Something drastic will have to happen for either of them to see their parents for who they really are. >> I have a hard time seeing either child as abused. Though I see where you're coming from, from the canonical evidence, it doesn't seem like either is abused by their overendulgence. There is a "buying a child's love" type of abuse that a parent can perpetrate. I've seen it happen. But I don't think that's the case with the Dursleys. There is very clearly is a genuine affection for Dudley and the Dursleys see satisfying his every whim as their way of expressing their love. They do give him more support than just money. For example, when Dudley has to diet, the rest of the family goes on the diet with him. This, to me, doesn't qualify as trying to replace real emotional love with a financial reward. Draco, is more difficult to determine. We know almost nothing about his home life, aside from fact that Dad's a DE and Mom's a bit of a snob. It is very easyfrom those two facts to imagine a life for him where his parents are cold and distant and try to buy his love. But it is not the only possible life we can extrapolate from the facts in the books. My personal opinion is that Lucius is as proud of Draco as Draco is of Lucius. He wants Draco to be the very best and if he has to buy his whole team new brooms to get Draco to be the seeker, then he does it. This sort of dynamic in their relationship would also explain the anger that Lucius shows when Hermione gets a higher grade than Draco (a common example of "abuse" brought up), since like many fathers who push their kids to excel, seeing them fail makes them angry (compare this with say a father raising his boy to play football). This is not to excuse Lucius (I think he's a jerk in either case), but another possible explanaiton which does not absolve Draco entirely. From lucy at luphen.co.uk Mon Oct 22 17:05:17 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:05:17 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quick question about Sirius References: <9r18cp+fln3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <002f01c15b1b$de0fb320$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28061 Hi Cindy, I would guess that it was in the chat he had with Hagrid way back in the ruins of his parents' house. We know he wanted to take care of Harry then, but Hagrid told him he had orders from Dumbledore, he could well have mentioned that he was taking him to his aunt and uncle and mentioned the town's name. Sirius then just has to skulk around the neighbourhood hoping to spot Harry. Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy C. To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 2:53 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quick question about Sirius Early in PoA, Sirius find Harry near Privet Drive, and later he reveals that he knows Harry lives with his aunt and uncle. How does he learn this? Does Crookshanks tell him? Does he learn it the night Harry's parents died, and if so, why would he know this if MacGonagall didn't know until Dumbledore told her? Does it have something to do with the missing 24-hours? I swear, I searched the board for the answer to this question and couldn't find it. Sorry. Cindy ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucy at luphen.co.uk Mon Oct 22 17:07:24 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:07:24 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sport... spinoff question References: <9r193i+36gu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <003a01c15b1c$27090900$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28062 And not only do they never play sport for fun, but after that very first flying lesson, no-one except Harry (and Ron briefly in GoF) ever touches a broomstick! I'd like to have had some mention of their other flying lessons - does Hermione or Neville ever master it? Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: frantyck at yahoo.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sport... spinoff question --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vanessa" wrote: > > 2. How does Hagrid know Harry and Ron have Friday afternoons off? > Perhaps > all students, or all first-years, do???.? > > At British Universities, most leave Wednesday afternoons free from > lectures for undergraduates, for the purposes of inter-university > sporting events - it's not unusual for boarding schools to have > scheduled 'free afternoons' for similar purposes - sporting, or > amateur dramatics, etc. So what do all the students who are NOT on their house Quidditch teams do for exercise? Haven't heard of any wand-operated treadmills yet... perhaps in the dungeons somewhere? Do other students all play Quidditch, when the teams are not monopolising the pitch? Do they play soccer or cricket? Apparently not, because wizard children seem to be unaware of soccer (Dean's Muggle poster), and cricket is never mentioned (sacrilege!). Oliver Wood has never heard of basketball. One might claim that this is Harry's POV, and he likely doesn't bother with anything that's not Quidditch, but surely part-Muggle wizards and witches obsess about Muggle sporting pastimes? And for a natural sportsman like Harry, shouldn't other sports also be somehow compelling? Hmm? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucy at luphen.co.uk Mon Oct 22 17:10:35 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:10:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions References: Message-ID: <004f01c15b1c$b94fa120$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28063 Isn't Professor Sprout 'short and dumpy' or something like that? Not quite the same as hugely fat, but still definitely not skinny. Also, though I can't remember if Madam Pomfrey gets described, I've also somehow imagined her as slightly plump - is that mentioned at all? Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: Amber ? To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions >From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it > >QUESTION 6: Do you think there might be a constitutional difference >between wizards and Muggles? Do wizards have a better metabolism that >prevents them from becoming obese? Don't they need vitamins? *grin* Of course they have different metabolisms! Doing magic takes up extra energy! After all, the energy to make something fly across the room, or change the molecular structure of an object must come from somewhere. In other fantasy worlds, there is the idea that there is no such thing as a fat wizard. I think it's the same in JKR's world, even if the idea is a little hidden. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Do you think you can cope? You figured me out - I'm lost and I'm hopeless Bleeding and broken - though I've never spoken I come undone - in this mad season" - Matchbox 20, "Mad Season" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mschub at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 17:59:29 2001 From: mschub at yahoo.com (Mike Schubert) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:59:29 -0000 Subject: Percy's magical ability Message-ID: <9r1mq1+3a67@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28064 Haven't posted in a while, and I rarely have time to keep myself current with the messages, so bear with me. I did a quick search, but didn't see anything recent about this... I'm in the middle of PoA (Grim Defeat), and just got to the part, immediately after the Fat Lady's been slashed, where Percy is following Harry around, "(acting, Harry suspected, on his mother's orders)... like an extremely pompous guard dog." Even on my first read, this part struck me, and it sticks out every time I go back through, for two reasons: A) It paints a picture of Percy that we don't see as often, the benevolent protector. Pompous ass though he may be, he generally means well, and this is one of the places where we see him acting as a "big brother" figure (in the non-Orwellian sense). The only others I can think of off the top of my head (though I'm quite certain there are more) are both CoS, with his "protection" of Ginny (insisting that she take the Pepperup Potion, and telling off F&G for their ill- advised attempts to cheer her up by scaring the living hell out of her). While the impetus for his actions in this particular case may well have been his mother's request, I'd bet that once she suggested it, he took the idea as his own, and threw himself into it a lot more heavily than he would have had he thought it was anything less than the right thing to do. B) It also really makes me wonder about Percy's magical ability. We know he's Head Boy, so he must have some relatively impressive magical ability (book-learnin' will only get you so far, I would assume). But the fact that he's trailing Harry around like a guard dog makes me wonder about just what he would expect to do in the event Sirius did show up. Granted, his arrogance, combined with his belief in the infallibility of the power of his Head Boy badge, would probably make him consider himself almost invincible, but I wonder what sort of a magical fight he could put up... Any thoughts? (Or other instances of Percy acting big brotherish?)(Or other places where we hear about Percy's magical ability?) -m From saitaina at wizzards.net Mon Oct 22 18:43:54 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:43:54 -0700 Subject: Salazar Slytherin-Mis understood or true evil? References: <9r1mq1+3a67@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <009b01c15b29$a6ee33e0$754e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 28065 Okay, in CoS Salazar had a lovely little chamber with a bloody huge snake in it. This is now fact. But did Salazar haver truly evil intentions regarding it? Could his 'hatred' of muggle-borns only be a fear of the times. In a time when witches and wizzards were pursicuted did he not have the right idea of saying no to them so that wizzards and witches were protected? I mean in this time they were being burned (not effective), crushed (more effective), drowned (not as effective) and many other things were done to them. Now say you allow a muggleborn into your school. You think that as a wizzard or witch themselves they would not give your secrets to the enemy...but they do. Suddenly instead of using a fire-freezing charm and escaping they just stab you. Thousands more could possibly die. This is the fear Salazar lived with. The fear that increased with each new muggle born allowed to enter. So was Salazar so wrong in thinking that they should close their doors to them? As it was he didn't go around comitting mass muggleborn murders..he just requested...constantly and probably loudly that Hogwarts shut it's doors to the children of the enemy. As for the basalisk, it is a giant snake that he can talk to...most likely a pet of his. Now Salazar's sitting there with that giant snake, knowing that he's gonna be booted from the school soon. So he does the one thing he can do, he seals it in it's chamber and locks the door with a spell that only a parsalmouth can open. Remember Parsaltounge is a very rare gift, only three known parsalmouths have existed so far in the HP world. Harry, Voldemort and Salazar. Could he, in that moment of saying good-bye, used a very rare gift as a key in order to keep the Basalisk from killing the students in his absence, thinking he would one day return to it when the others saw his side? The basalisk does not go after just muggle borns I'm sure, other wise dear old Tom would have been the first in line, it goes after those it's Master tells it to, or in the case of no master, who ever's closest. Could the legend have come about from a group of muggle borns who knew about Salazar's chamber (most likely not much of a secret in his days, probably just a play room he had around) and in their bitterness over him wanting to kick them out, created the legend about it eating only muggleborns. Then, years down the line when Tom heard it, he took whole heartedly to the idea and sent the thing on it's merry way to kill and maim those in the name of his grandfather whom never really wanted that, thus enforcing the legend... Saitaina ***** http://fly.to/TheTomesofKnowledge Your place for Harry Potter, BTVS, Angel and Anita Blake fanficiton Also Doing: Reading fanfiction/Role-playing Last Movie Seen: In all honesty..can't remember..could have been Shreik...or Tomb Raider...or Atlantis...saw em all on the same day Last TV Show Seen: Last SHOW- 'Designing Women' Currently watching-CNN Current Book-HP and the Chamber of Secrets (with a few Nita Blakes mixed in) From lucy at luphen.co.uk Mon Oct 22 19:56:51 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:56:51 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy's magical ability References: <9r1mq1+3a67@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <006401c15b33$b47c76c0$40af1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28066 No: HPFGUIDX 28067 well..just to throw a spanner in the works I also am English and went to school in England. I was one of several people who were 'young for my year' - not an uncommon phenomenon. I was born in January so in theory should have been towards the older end of my year (Assuming they start counting around September). However, i was actually a year ABOVE that - so in my final year of school when everyone turned 18, I turned 17 - and there were heaps of people I knew the in same position. in fact, theyoungest girl in my year didnt turn 17 until April of the year we left school! So, I think it's highly likely that Hermione is younger than Harry - especially since she's pretty bright and could handle school slightly younger than the others? ____________________________________________________________ Nokia Game is on again. Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Oct 23 00:20:25 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:20:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley vs Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28068 You know, people keep saying that at Hogwarts, Draco should be exposed to different and positive ideas, but I just don't see it. Other than at the 4t year leaving feast, dumbledore never addresses the students on issues of bias and prejudice- not even 2nd year when muggle-borns are being petrified and the students are terrified. So where would Draco learn them from? In class? We haven't seen any class where ethics are taught. The slytherin common-room? Not all those students' parents are Death Eaters- so do they debate blood purity issues? How would a student's opinions trump Lucius Malfoy's in Draco's eyes? From usergoogol at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 01:01:37 2001 From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (Maxwell Simpson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:01:37 -0400 Subject: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movies? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28069 According to www.the-leaky-cauldron.com Book Three's script is already in the works, and there are theories that Book Four may be divided into two seperate movies, due to its extreme length. Which, I must admit, would be intriguing. But how would two movies work? Could it be a good old fashioned double feature? Or what? What then? Would the two movies be released at the same time, and people could either watch seperately, or simultaneously? At any rate, if Book Four could be split in two, we know it will be comfortably long, and that means that Book four will be a very fun movie to watch, if you have a sufficently large bladder. Not to mention the fact that it's a great book. ~User "Double Trouble" Googol~ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 23 02:07:07 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 02:07:07 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r2jcb+8m7j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28070 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maxwell Simpson wrote: > According to www.the-leaky-cauldron.com Book Three's script is already in the works, and there are theories that Book Four may be divided into two seperate movies, due to its extreme length. Which, I must admit, would be intriguing. > > But how would two movies work? Could it be a good old fashioned double feature? Or what? What then? Would the two movies be released at the same time, and people could either watch seperately, or simultaneously? > Wow. I'd like to shake the hand of any script writer who could figure out how to make two good movies out of Book 4. If you split Book 4 directly in half, you come out right after "The First Task" and before "House Elf Liberation Front." So the second half would have the big plot twists, and the first half would have things like "Bagman & Crouch." You'd have to figure out a way to do it that doesn't divide up the Triwizard Competition, I guess. Personally, I'd much prefer to see one solid three-hour movie that cuts down a lot of the background stuff in the beginning of the book. I know this is controversial, but I'd eliminate the QWC entirely, just for starters. Cindy From linman6868 at aol.com Tue Oct 23 02:41:49 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:41:49 EDT Subject: PS/SS Chapter 9 Summary and Discussion Q's Message-ID: <73.14d8c18c.290632ed@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28071 This has turned out to be a really complex chapter, narratologically. So this summary is really long. Just a warning. Lisa PS/SS Chapter 9 Summary and Discussion Q's THE MIDNIGHT DUEL Harry quickly discovers that Draco Malfoy is an even worse enemy than Dudley, so when Harry and Ron discover that the Gryffindors' flying lessons are to take place with the Slytherins, Harry is morose. He expects to screw up big time with Malfoy there, and more is the pity since he was so looking forward to the experience of flying. Ron consoles him with equal parts common sense and adolescent scorn (scorn for Malfoy, that is). A small montage follows, of students' various escapades on brooms (I must admit to liking Malfoy's story about narrowly escaping Muggles in Helicopters - it makes me think of Calvin and Hobbes's fantastic storylines). Apparently Quidditch really is the big noise in the wizarding world. Both Neville and Hermione, newcomers to the world of flying, are very nervous about it; Hermione tries to salve her nerves by reading Quidditch Through the Ages to the breakfast table, and only Neville isn't bored to tears. The mail arrives, reminding Harry that Hedwig's deliveries are few and far between, while those of the Malfoy eagle owl are not. Malfoy has been gloating over Harry because of this, but not getting a rise out of him, decides to pick on Neville instead, who has just received a Remembrall from his grandmother. Malfoy, with his goons at his side, swipes it; Ron and Harry jump to Neville's defense, but McGonagall swiftly appears, and Malfoy is forced to give Neville back his magical device. That afternoon, the Gryffindor first-years appear outside on a lovely afternoon for their first flying lesson. The teacher, Madam Hooch, appears and instructs them on how to approach, summon, and mount their brooms. Harry's broom is most responsive to this procedure. When Madam Hooch gives the signal to rise a few feet, Neville, who has been very nervous throughout the lesson, jumps the gun and shoots up into the air. When he sees how far up he's gone, he loses his control and falls off, breaking his wrist when he hits the ground. Madam Hooch, rather shaken herself, escorts poor Neville to the hospital wing, leaving the rest of the class with a dire warning not to touch their brooms on pain of expulsion. Malfoy starts laughing as soon as they're gone, and squabbles arise between the Gryffindors and Slytherins. Malfoy notices that Neville has dropped his Remembrall, and picks it up gleefully. Harry tries a quiet threat, but this only eggs Malfoy on to jump on his broom and taunt Harry with the device. Harry grabs his broom, despite Hermione Granger's protests, and launches himself up into the air. Instantly, he discovers that he's a natural at flying, and for a moment he forgets Malfoy and enjoys the euphoria. But quickly he sets to the task of meeting Malfoy's threat, which he does quite effectively. Malfoy, to distract him, throws the Remembrall into the air and scoots for the ground. Harry dives steeply, catches the ball, and pulls his broom straight with a foot to spare. Unfortunately, Harry is immediately confronted with Professor McGonagall, who has seen it all and appears to be quite livid. She marches Harry off, who follows her glumly, working out the now-apparent scenario of living as an expelled wizard. She stops at a classroom and borrows Wood, who turns out to be not a paddle but a person called Oliver Wood. She takes them both into an empty classroom and explains to Wood that she's discovered a Seeker. Wood, who is the captain of the Gryffindor Quidditch team, is delighted. Bewildered, Harry watches McGonagall explain Harry's diving feat to Wood, and they discuss buying him a special broomstick and getting him trained. McGonagall tells Harry that he is following in the footsteps of his father, and warns him sardonically that if he doesn't train hard she'll rethink punishing him. Ron is amazed when Harry explains to him at dinner that he's just been named Gryffindor's new Seeker. Harry explains that Wood's told him he's the youngest House player in a century, and that he's supposed to be the Lions' secret weapon. Fred and George come over to congratulate Harry on getting on the team with them, but no sooner are they gone than Malfoy and his minions appear to taunt Harry. Harry coolly remarks that Malfoy seems to depend on his muscle-bound friends for courage. This opens it up for Malfoy to issue a challenge to a one-on-one duel. Ron jumps to second Harry, and arrangements are made to meet at midnight. After Malfoy goes, Ron explains the mechanics of wizard dueling to Harry, though he seems to be fuzzy on what sorts of spells to cast. Hermione buts in at this point to tell them not to break any rules by leaving the common room after hours. Ron and Harry brush her off. At 11:30, Harry and Ron are caught by Hermione as they are leaving the portrait hole. Hermione follows them out protesting, but soon realizes that the Fat Lady has disappeared, and she too is now out of bounds. She insists on coming along on Harry's and Ron's escapade; Harry is forced to shut up Ron and Hermione arguing in order to discover Neville, who's forgotten the password and has been wandering the halls disconsolately. The four of them set off, Ron threatening Hermione and Neville with the "Curse of the Bogies," if they end up betraying him and Harry, and they come to the trophy room, only to discover that Filch and Mrs. Norris are lurking there, searching for truant students. [I must point out to Caius here that Filch's first words here are "Sniff around, my sweet, they might be lurking in a corner", not "They're in here somewhere, probably hiding," which is on the next page of the American edition. Still, most people who took CMC's little quiz figured it out anyway.] The foursome retreat and knock over a suit of armor - then flee down several corridors, Hermione telling them that Malfoy probably tipped Filch off. They run into Peeves, who makes loud trouble and calls for Filch, and to escape they bundle themselves through a door which Hermione magically unlocks. Harry is listening for the crisis to pass, but Neville eventually gets his attention and he realizes what the rest of them know: that they're in the forbidden corridor, and the "horrible death," in the form of a three-headed monster dog, is right before them. Panicking, they flee the room and run all the way back to the portrait hole, where the Fat Lady scolds them and lets them in. Hermione informs them scathingly that the dog was OBVIOUSLY guarding something, as it was standing on a trapdoor. She then says, "I hope you're pleased with yourselves. We could all have been killed - or worse, expelled. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to bed." Ron finds this ludicrous, but Harry begins to put two and two together, and now it appears that Harry's discovered the whereabouts of Hagrid's secret package. DUMP-DUMP-DUMMMMMM. . . Once again, tune in next time, same Hogwarts time, same Hogwarts channel. . . Discussion Questions: 1. This chapter seems to set Neville and Hermione up as either foils to each other or as opposite thermometers for various sitations. In fact, this occurs in other books as well. Can anyone suggest a significance to this narrative pairing between Neville and Hermione? (Shipping anwers are possible but by no means exclusive here.) 2. The narrator explains that Harry considers Draco Malfoy to be a worse enemy than Dudley. Why? Malfoy's threats to Harry are hardly more sophisticated than Dudley's; the only difference appears to be that Malfoy's enmity is based on his philosophy rather than mere sibling piggishness. Harry appears to have developed a shell against sneers, so why should Malfoy's bother him more than Dudley's? 3. I've learned from this list that "bogies" is British for American "boogers." So, if Ron threatens Hermione and Neville with the Curse of the Bogies, is he threatening them with bogey-men (which was what I'd first thought) or with boogers? What would a Curse of the Boogers be like, I wonder? I wonder if Harry will ever choose it instead of Furnunculus in future duels? 4. Can anyone suggest a plausible reason why flying lessons are never mentioned again? Perhaps it is because Harry becomes exempt from them, unlike the rest of the class? After all, we see Hermione flying in the room of the Bird-Keys at the end of the book. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From linman6868 at aol.com Tue Oct 23 02:55:36 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 02:55:36 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Chapter 8 Summary and Discussion Q's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r2m78+khfk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28072 Sara wrote: > > "Issues" sounds like a very American thing to say (to me anyway). It's just > not the done thing in the UK to sound like a counsellor. And Hagrid sounds > about as English as they come, he's got a very northern accent > (Yorkshire/lancashire perhaps...) and it's really not concievable that he'd > say such a thing. Oh, dear. I should know better than to mix a joke into a serious question. Psychology may be our national pastime, but even we Americans never say "He's got Issues" without our tongues firmly in cheek, even if we mean it. It's such a silly, hackneyed phrase and we're well aware of it over here. What I meant was that Hagrid could have passed Snape's behavior over a little bit more casually than he did, by implying that he (as some teachers do) pick on certain students precisely for the reason that he is expected to like them -- or something, anything other than looking guilty and saying "Rubbish!" However, I do take Amber's point that no matter what Hagrid's spin, Harry's going to pounce on it like a Capitol Hill reporter smelling blood. I also suppose that Hagrid's nature just doesn't admit of anything other than pure candor or bad lying. Lisa From doseylel at aol.com Tue Oct 23 03:55:42 2001 From: doseylel at aol.com (doseylel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 03:55:42 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and the female DADA teacher In-Reply-To: <9r1fs7+5flj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r2pnu+cvuh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28073 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > tara diane wrote: > > > > JK says that we'll be seeing Arabella in the 5th > > book and find out all about her. She also > > mentions a female DADA teacher. Could Mrs. Figg > > turn out to be the new DADA teacher? Assuming > > she's part of the protection provided while > > Harry's with the Dursley's, she must have some > > knowledge and/or practice with the dark arts. > > > > There has been lots of discussion about Arabella and DADA. But I > still don't believe in it. And why? > > In the end of the Goblet of Fire Dumbledore begin to call his group > for order. Arabella Figg was one of them. This group may have > something else to do than teach children in Hogwarts, I believe. . > > OK, who is the teacher, if it is not Arabella. My guess is, that the > teacher is a new character like always and she is the one who is > going to brake hearts. In my theory, both Severus and Sirius are > going to fall in love with her.. > > //Mirzam My thoughts exactly. As though there isn't enough animosity between Snape and Sirius already, throw a woman in between them ???? If she turns out to be a blond, I hope Snape gets her. Otherwise, I root for Sirius. Leslie From catlady at wicca.net Tue Oct 23 04:08:45 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:08:45 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Chapter 9 Summary and Discussion Q's In-Reply-To: <73.14d8c18c.290632ed@aol.com> Message-ID: <9r2qgd+8ogd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28074 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > This has turned out to be a really complex chapter, > narratologically. What a wonderful word you've invented! I will seek an opportunity to use it myself. > Instantly, he discovers that he's a natural at flying, (snip) > Harry dives steeply, catches the ball, and pulls his broom > straight with a foot to spare. I wonder if Harry got his ability as a Seeker the same place he got his Parseltongue. CoS didn't tell us whether popular, charming, intelligent, young Tom Riddle was also a star Seeker... > McGonagall tells Harry that he is following in the footsteps of his > father, But later, in a Chat, JKR said that James had been a Chaser rather than a Seeker. G'rrr. Why did she have Oliver say that Harry is the right build for a Seeker, if his father with the same build wasn't a Seeker, and Cedric with quite a different build was? > This opens it up for Malfoy to issue a challenge to a one-on-one > duel. Ron jumps to second Harry, and arrangements are made to meet > at midnight. When my Tim was listening to the tape the first time (I bought him the tape to listen in the car because he wouldn't read the book), as soon as Malfoy said to meet at midnight, Tim said, as if it were obvious: "He has no intention of going there himself; he's just going to tip off [Filch] to catch Harry breaking curfew." How did Tim know? Is that a common part of male schoolhood? > Discussion Questions: > 2. The narrator explains that Harry considers Draco Malfoy to be a > worse enemy than Dudley. Why? Malfoy's threats to Harry are > hardly more sophisticated than Dudley's; It seemed to me that Harry was pretty good at getting away from Dudley and even to occasionally turn the tables on Dudley, due to Dudley being too stupid to learn from experience. It seemed to me that Harry found Draco worse than Dudley because Draco isn't as stupid as Dudley and is much more knowledge about the world they are living in (the wizarding world) than Harry is, and therefore Harry feels like he won't be able to escape Draco. From joym999 at aol.com Tue Oct 23 04:58:10 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:58:10 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #17 Reminder Message-ID: <9r2td2+7te7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28075 This week's contest is still going on! For this week's contest, you are being asked to help the moderators with a vexing little dilemma. As you know, and are perhaps confused by, HP4GU has a plethora of files for your amusement and edification: the Very Frequently Asked Questions (VFAQs), the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs), the Netiquette file, the list of abbreviations, etc., etc., etc. All of which you've read, right? The most fascinating of these files, as all good HP4GU members know, is what is currently called the FAQ file, which is a very long collection of essays, located at the Harry Potter Lexicon site run by list-member and L.O.O.N. spiritual leader Steve Vander Ark. It is highly recommended that, if you are not familiar with these wonderful FAQ files, that you wander over to http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ and spend some time browsing. Now, we all know that FAQ stands for "Frequently Asked Questions." However, these files have evolved into something much more than just questions about HP that are asked a lot. Plus, people tend to confuse "VFAQ" with "FAQ." So, it has been decided that we need to rename the FAQ files. This is where YOU come in -- what do YOU think these files should be called? Here are some, mostly lame, suggestions: - The Pensieve (or The HP4GU Pensieve) - The Very Large File Full of Harry Potter Speculation from HP4GU - The Official League Of Obsessed Nitpickers' Guide to Harry Potter - Substantive Topical Essays - Frequently Discussed Topics Do you like any of these titles? If so, why? Do you have a better suggestion for what we should rename the FAQs? (Please tell me that someone does.) Please let me know what you think, by email to HP4GUCon at aol.con or to the above address (save your message and resend it if you don't receive an acknowledgment from me.) If you come up with a new name that all of our esteemed Moderators like, a plaque with your name on it will be installed in the entrance to the Renamed FAQ Gallery, which will of course continue to be located at the world-famous Harry Potter Lexicon facility, which itself is housed in a large castle at an undisclosed and unplottable site near Roswell, New Mexico. (We'd let you visit, but we'd have to perform a memory charm on you afterwards, but rest assured that the plaque will be there.) ?Joywitch From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Oct 23 10:37:58 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:37:58 -0000 Subject: Hermione's ages and intuition In-Reply-To: <9qq9sl+2rrs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r3ha6+2f82@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28076 Ebony wrote: > > You're right IMO, Vicky. *All* the evidence save the British Muggle > education system itself points to Hermione being 10 upon starting > Hogwarts. I spent the summer studying the British educational system > when this question came up and asked my tutor if it was possible for > a child to begin school early or to be accelerated at some point. > His answers seemed to allow for exceptions to be made. > Yes, I believe exceptions are possible and do happen. I'ts bad netiquette to ask the same question twice, even if you don't get an answer, so I can't possibly ask Scottish list members again to confirm whether the Scottish system is the same as the English one, even though they have wilfully sat with the relevant post burning a hole in their inboxes for *three months*. And if we have *no* Scottish members (what happened to Robert Carnegie?) that is in itself a significant fact. Could all Scottish non-members e-mail me to inform me of their non-existence please. Anyway, to my main point. *All* the evidence, Ebony? There is Dumbledore's comment about 13 year old wizards. This aside, I suspect there is little or no evidence of the simply factual, nitpicky kind on *either* side of the case, which brings me to the interesting question - how do we form these apparently strong convictions? I suspect that very minor nuances in the way things are presented in the text hit us at the subconscious level, and then inform our view of characters in a profound way for a long time. For example, I felt there was something fishy about the way McGonagall was hanging around Privet Drive at the beginning of PS, with the result that it wasn't till about the time of Harry's visit to petrified Hermione that I began to cut her some slack. I now think that she was there as a narrative device. Likewise, Hermione's age. British, and apparently, Norwegian, readers will approach the text just *knowing* that the cutoff is 1 Sept, and will interpret the rest of the evidence accordingly, unless a solid direct contradiction comes up. (Barb - this is something we all realised in school, not as parents, when we compared birthdays etc.) Anything such as Dumbledore's comment about 13 year olds will just be interpreted as loose language. Any immaturity in Hermione's behaviour (I don't see any myself for someone in that age range, just as I don't see anything unbelievably mature for soeone two months younger than Harry) would be seen to be just that. American readers are not so constrained - so, Ebony, Barb, and other 1979'ers (In a network, in an e-group, Speculating on a filk...), what were those triggers in the text that said 'young Hermione'? Officiousness (IMO she's never truly bossy) over Trevor's toad implies insecurity implies a life of playing catchup at school? Australians, Germans, South Americans, etc? There is more at stake than Hermione's age here - I believe that the H/R - H/H shipping debate is similar, for example: Christian is right to point out that a lot of argument is based on 'my position is not inconsistent with the text' - but we want to do better than that - we want to try to see objectively where the text *leads* us, if possible. David From j.balfour at lmu.ac.uk Tue Oct 23 10:43:33 2001 From: j.balfour at lmu.ac.uk (Balfour, Julie [HES]) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:43:33 +0100 Subject: food and drink + sport + Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28077 < snip pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it> > the only possible conclusion is that Wizards don't have problems with cholesterol > Personally, I concluded that they live longer as they are magic. Call me old-fashioned...sometimes I think that comments like this take a little bit of the 'magic' away - one *can* over-analyze, y'know...! > QUESTION 1: Why do neither teachers nor students ever eat: Rice, > pasta, fish, salad, fresh fruit (with the exception of strawberries)? > They live on a diet of the most heavy and unhealthy food imaginable- > just think what teaching or being taught three hours in the afternoon > with your stomach full of Steak and Kidney pie and Trifle must be > like! > Because that's what we eat in Britain - honest, guv'nor. In fact I've never heard of this "fresh fruit" of which you speak. > QUESTION 2: What do you think of the attitude towards the "popular > drugs" coffee, nicotine and alcohol JKR confers to us by means of her > books (cigarettes are never mentioned, alcohol mostly has unpleasant > consequences and nobody ever drinks coffee in the wizarding world)? A > clear message for Muggles like us or a sign that wizards are simply > different and don't need certain things? > Shoot me down in flames if you like, but given that the books *were* originally published and marketed towards children (I know we don't like to admit to that as we are all adults who recognize that they have many more levels etc etc etc,) but it would not necessarily have been appropriate to start going on about how great fags and booze are. > QUESTION 4: Where do you think the Fat Lady got her chocolate liquors > from? > By Magic. Just leave it Be. Vanessa wrote: > At British Universities, most leave Wednesday afternoons free from > lectures for undergraduates, for the purposes of inter-university > sporting events frantyck at yahoo.com replied: > Do other students all play Quidditch, when the teams are not > monopolising the pitch? > I would imagine so - in most British schools that take sport seriously *all* children have to take part in some sort of physical activity. I know myself from years of forging notes from my Mum and claiming that it was my "time of the month" (every week? ha!) that it is very difficult to avoid having to wear those nasty Aertex tops at some point. Even those who aren't picked for the team are likely to play Quidditch recreationally - if this the wizarding obsession it is made out to be then it would be a bit weird for nobody except 7 per house to play the game...we also do see an impromptu game at the Burrow before the World Cup, which reminded me of family football and cricket games in the local park. Sara wrote: > "Issues" sounds like a very American thing to say (to me anyway). It's just > not the done thing in the UK to sound like a counsellor. > Agreed! The fact of the matter is that Harry is 11 years old. How daunting is everything to him when he first finds out that he is a wizard? To also find out that an intimidating adult who you've never clapped eyes on before hates your guts would be horrible, and not the sort of thing that it is appropriate for an adult to tell a child. Children need protection from adults and to say that "Snape has issues" (however tongue in cheek!) to a child would be putting them on the same level, which they are not - they are children. > And Hagrid sounds > about as English as they come, he's got a very northern accent > (Yorkshire/lancashire perhaps...) > I think JKR said in a webchat that he is West Country (think Bristol, farmers, tractors etc!) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she grew up round there, so I would imagine that Hagrid having that accent would have nice connotations with childhood and therefore be a 'security blanket'-type of voice. From dorothydch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 11:41:22 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:41:22 -0000 Subject: Dudley vs Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r3l12+5r3a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28078 You made some very good points. I think Draco *should* learn at school the way he has *learned* at home. I don't think Dumbledore has to *teach* anything, he lives the right way. For instance at the beginning of PS he lets every child sing the school song their own way. He even applauds the twins for their very unsusal rendition of the song which ends long after the other students. As we see the other teachers are not amused. He let's in different students muggle-born, half breed giants, werewolves etc. Dumbledore lives tolerance which is more powerful than any teacher can teach. Dorothy --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > You know, people keep saying that at Hogwarts, Draco should be exposed to > different and positive ideas, but I just don't see it. Other than at the 4t > year leaving feast, dumbledore never addresses the students on issues of > bias and prejudice- not even 2nd year when muggle-borns are being petrified > and the students are terrified. So where would Draco learn them from? In > class? We haven't seen any class where ethics are taught. The slytherin > common-room? Not all those students' parents are Death Eaters- so do they > debate blood purity issues? How would a student's opinions trump Lucius > Malfoy's in Draco's eyes? From dorothydch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 12:09:39 2001 From: dorothydch at yahoo.com (dorothydch at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:09:39 -0000 Subject: Background Characters coming to the Foreground? In-Reply-To: <9qkf22+m3jb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r3mm3+q65c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28079 The elder Weasley brothers Bill and Charlie: Bill may be weaved into the story regarding Gringotts. Why still don't know exactly how is was broken into. Also there is the Fleur interest. Charlie will join in the fight against you-know-who..I'm sure we will see more beast. Dorothy --- In HPforGrownups at y..., kidzero7 at h... wrote: > One of the things I love about the Harry Potter series is the > abundance of minor and 'background' characters roaming the halls of > Hogwarts. When I reread the series, I always find myself imagining > the going-ons of these characters. > > My question is this: > > Has JK hinted at in her books or in the press that some of these > background characters will come to the foreground? > > I'm thinking that some of the "mudbloods" will play a bigger part if > JK decides to really make the "blood issue" a focus of the series or > one of her books. > > Characters I'd personally like to learn more about are Dean Thomas, > Lee Jordan, Cho Chang, Padma and Parvati Patil, and Justin Finch- > Fletchley. > > Also, though it's not canon by any stretch... The Harry Potter > Trading Card game requires that you choose a Character card before > play. They have characters you'd expect to be able to play like > Harry, Ron, Hermione, Snape, Flitwick, etc, but two minor characters > that are playable are Dean Thomas and Hannah Abbott. It makes me > wonder if JK had some input on what characters should be used and > that possibly these 2 characters will play bigger roles by the end of > the series. > > What do you think? From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Oct 23 12:20:57 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:20:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: food and drink + sport + Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011023122057.86694.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28080 "Balfour, Julie [HES]" wrote: >> the only possible conclusion is that Wizards don't have problems with cholesterol >> > Personally, I concluded that they live longer as they are magic. Call me old->fashioned...sometimes I think that comments like this take a little bit of the 'magic' away >- one *can* over-analyze, y'know...! Yep, but one *might* also misunderstand irony :) >> QUESTION 1: Why do neither teachers nor students ever eat: Rice, >> pasta, fish, salad, fresh fruit (with the exception of strawberries)? >> They live on a diet of the most heavy and unhealthy food imaginable- >> just think what teaching or being taught three hours in the afternoon >> with your stomach full of Steak and Kidney pie and Trifle must be >> like! >> > Because that's what we eat in Britain - honest, guv'nor. In fact I've never heard of >this "fresh fruit" of which you speak. Now this is NOT meant to be patronizing,but I don't know whether you belong to the (my) generation of Monty Python warshippers. They did that hilarious "fresh fruit"- Royal Army sketch- try to get it, if you can, the colonel's "fruitophobia" might equal yours. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Nokia Game is on again. Click here to join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 23 12:57:21 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:57:21 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers Message-ID: <9r3pfh+eaps@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28081 I have been thinking of asking this question for a while, but I have never figured out exactly how to phrase it. So forgive me if this comes off as a little awkward. It isn't my intention to offend. As we all know, to date, there has been only a small amount of overt romantic activity described in the HP series. There is almost none in the first three books. In GoF, there is "The Unexpected Task" and "The Yule Ball." Those chapters were played mostly for laughs, IMHO. Occasionally, we see Harry or Ron be smitten with a girl, and Hermione had some rather muted interest in Krum. That's about it. Nevertheless, there is rampant speculation on the list about Ships, and development of Ships in future books is one of the most eagerly awaited developments. Entire discussion groups exist to discuss Ships. I must admit I have no interest in Ships (or Slash) among any of the adult characters. If Sirius and Snape became rivals over a woman, I would just melt away and die, I think. If Lupin hooked up with Mrs. Figg, well . . . I think I'd be turning those pages mighty fast. Even for Harry, Ron and Hermione, I would prefer that they stick to the knitting and not have significant romantic relationships until post-Book 7. I have no idea why this is, but perhaps it is a feeling that the next three books should be fast-paced adventures, and Ships would steer the books toward being romance novels? I really don't know. So then, the question: Does most people on the list look forward to more ships? If so, why would Ships enhance the books for you? Do the Shippers greatly outnumber the non-Shippers? Cindy (wondering if it is possible to convert from non-Shipper to pro-Shipper) From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Oct 23 13:39:16 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:39:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shippers and Non-Shippers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28082 Cindy wrote: > I have been thinking of asking this question for a while, but I have > never figured out exactly how to phrase it. So forgive me if this > comes off as a little awkward. It isn't my intention to offend. I have often been accused of being a SHIPper, but I'm really more a canon-no-shipper, and it's because I think they're going to have more important things to worry about than romance, and because I don't think that most people *do* spend the rest of their life with the person they were crushing on at 10, or even dating at 17 (yes, I am of the Hermione Is Younger Than Harry group. So?) even though two of my friends did meet at 15 and marry at 25. > > Nevertheless, there is rampant speculation on the list about Ships, > and development of Ships in future books is one of the most eagerly > awaited developments. Entire discussion groups exist to discuss > Ships. I nearly wrote that I'm not familiar with discussion groups that exist to discuss ships but that's not really true. There is a Sirius/Remus list and a Harry/Draco list and a Harry/Ron list, and a Draco/Hermione list, etc. I am not sure there is a Harry/Hermione list, though, and I think the Ron/Hermione thing isn't a list at all, but the Sugarquill site - Harry/Ginny is over at GryffTower. > Even for Harry, Ron and Hermione, I would prefer that they stick to > the knitting and not have significant romantic relationships until > post-Book 7. I have no idea why this is, but perhaps it is a feeling > that the next three books should be fast-paced adventures, and Ships > would steer the books toward being romance novels? I really don't > know. I actually don't think that a limited amount of romance would steer the books towards being romance novels, and I actually do hope for some sort of wizarding wedding - if not a flashback to Lily and James, then perhaps a Weasley's wedding - mostly because I want to see the traditions, although I have no objection to Fred & Angelina actually tying the knot. > > So then, the question: Does most people on the list look forward to > more ships? If so, why would Ships enhance the books for you? Do > the Shippers greatly outnumber the non-Shippers? There are a few relationships that I could see as enhancing the plot. A Draco/Hermione romance, if properly crafted (and would she do anything else?) could bring a spy into the trio's universe (read that however you choose - you won't be wrong). The relationship between Sirius and Remus may be worth exploring. And I do think that Ron & Hermione should date for a month or so, to get it out of their system and realize how wrong for each other they are - better sooner than later, that! follow me to FictionAlley.org - Harry Potter Fanfic of all shapes, sizes & ships 7 sickles an ounce! From margdean at erols.com Tue Oct 23 14:12:55 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:12:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PS/SS Chapter 9 Summary and Discussion Q's References: <9r2qgd+8ogd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BD57AE7.32007E7E@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28083 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > > Instantly, he discovers that he's a natural at flying, (snip) > > Harry dives steeply, catches the ball, and pulls his broom > > straight with a foot to spare. > > I wonder if Harry got his ability as a Seeker the same place he got > his Parseltongue. CoS didn't tell us whether popular, charming, > intelligent, young Tom Riddle was also a star Seeker... > > > McGonagall tells Harry that he is following in the footsteps of his > > father, > > But later, in a Chat, JKR said that James had been a Chaser rather > than a Seeker. G'rrr. Why did she have Oliver say that Harry is the > right build for a Seeker, if his father with the same build wasn't a > Seeker, and Cedric with quite a different build was? Perhaps James wasn't as small as Harry is, NOT having been underfed through most of his childhood. As for Cedric, he may not have the ideal build for a Seeker but may have the natural agility and flying talent to make up for this. The other Seekers we see much of, Cho and Draco, would seem to be small, nippy types too, like Harry. If you think about it, the Chaser position may require stronger strategic skills than Seeker, because the Seeker's role in the game is pretty easy to understand, even for a relative novice like Harry: Spot the Snitch and Catch It (and stay out of the way of Bludgers while you're doing so). Thinking about it like this, Chaser may turn out to be Ron's position -- a good chess player obviously has the right grasp of strategy. And, of course, Wood may have been overstating the case a bit in order to persuade Harry. That would be in character, I think. ;) --Margaret Dean From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 14:59:00 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:59:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Shippers and Non-Shippers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28084 >From: "Cindy C." > >So then, the question: Does most people on the list look forward to >more ships? If so, why would Ships enhance the books for you? Do >the Shippers greatly outnumber the non-Shippers? As a No-Shipper, I can say that I don't look forward to more ships. To be absolutely honest, when Harry got those first fluttery feelings in his stomach when he saw Cho in POA, I wanted to throw the book out the window. I didn't, it was just one tiny line, but I did roll my eyes, sigh, and think "Here we go..." GOF, surprisingly, didn't bother me too much but I saw the Yule Ball as just plain silliness. I was more interested in the Triwizard Tournament. Eh, different strokes for different folks, right? If JKR includes romance as a big plot element...well, I won't stop reading but I might be less enthusiastic about the books. Of course, she might be able to pull it off in a way to satisfy even me. And before I'm told off, I do realize that the Trio and other students are at that hormonal age and that romance and pairings at this point are practically inevitable. I'm just hoping that JKR keeps it muted. I personally think Shippers hugely outnumber No-Shippers just from personal observation. But I'm sure Shippers have a different POV. And now that I've said my piece, I await the Shippers to tear me to shreds! *grin* >Cindy (wondering if it is possible to convert from non-Shipper to >pro-Shipper) Yes it's possible I've heard but why would you want to leave the No-Ship raft? Don't listen to the distant call of the cruiseliners and tugboats! ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Do you think you can cope? You figured me out - I'm lost and I'm hopeless Bleeding and broken - though I've never spoken I come undone - in this mad season" - Matchbox 20, "Mad Season" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cleffa at start.com.au Tue Oct 23 15:11:31 2001 From: cleffa at start.com.au (Kanna Ophelia) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 0:41:31 +0930 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Shippers and Non-Shippers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28085 Original message from: "Cindy C." Ooh! As a rampant romantic fanfic fan, although definitely on the slash/femmeslash side of things, I couldn't resist this... (I bear allegiance to no specific pairings forums, but I do belong to hpfemmeslash, which is devoted to sapphic HP pairings in general.) > Does most people on the list look forward to >more ships? If so, why would Ships enhance the books for you? Speaking for myself... I would definitely prefer no romantic focus in later books. For a number of reasons... Firstly, I thought the whole Yule Ball thing was handled, well, not wonderfully. I could only come to terms with it by telling myself that if Rowling was pastiching various children's book forms, well, she could hardly leave teen romance novels out... But I found the whole thing rather embarassing, especially the parts that were obviously meant to be funny, and I'm not looking forward to more of the same. It was the only extended period I wasn't caught up in the story or the action. (And this is from someone addicted to teen romances) Secondly - well, it would spoil a lot of fun. One of the things I love about fandoms is speculating on relationships, making up romances, reading and writing fanfic. Canon pairings in fiction bore me. It's selfish but... there you go. I don't want the options for discussion, argument and speculation cut off. Especially as whoever Harry, Hermione or Ron end up with, some fans are going to be seriously put out. (Of course, the only HP pairing I've ever written was unrequited Narcissa/Molly, which I consider even less likely to be canonical than Ginny/Fleur or say.. Hermione/Draco... But it was fun working it out to be convincing, for the space of a story, to a reader. And for me, that's where much of the pleasure of fanfic lies...) Thirdly: If it happens, it's likely to be overwhelmingly heterosexist. We've already had a kind of absurdly archaic rule about opposite-sex partners at the Yule Ball. And, what, not *one* female responded to the Veela, and not one male was immune? I watched the discussion on future non0het characters with interest and didn't really want to get into it. I don't agree, though, that not wanting to annoy extremists is an acceptable reason for ignoring the other 10% of teens - even Sweet Valley High has its token gay characters. (Not that I'd like to see Homosexuality as an Issue in Harry Potter, just some queerish teens who hopefully *don't* agonise and get sent off to counseling like their SVH counterparts.) But it's not even the lack of gay characters that's likely to bother me, but just too much emphasis on heterosexual pairing off. (After all, I wouldn't tend to notice the lack of boy/boy and girl/girl if there wasn't intrusive amounts of girl./boy.) A friend of mine is celibate by nature, and just as (bisexual myself) I tend to tag Hermione, the usual transitory crushes aside, as stereotypically dyke, she chooses in the same way to recognise her as a spinster figure... and why not? Natural (non-religious) celibates are not a group who get much recognition in our culture. And I understand that she found the pairing-off imperative in our pop culture rather oppressive, to say the least. We get the whole serial monogamy thing poured down our throats as it is... we don't really need another tube for it. That's what romance novels and soap operas are for. And, after all, not everyone dated in High School, although you wouldn't believe it form the media. And I know I'm not the only one who dated more from a sense of peer pressure/duty (Thats What Teenagers Do) than pleasure, until bam I met my True Love at 24. Having dating and crushes presented as the be-all and end-of all every adolescent's existence is irritating. Especially when said adolescents are, you know, saving the world 'n'stuff, and probably have other things on their minds. Amber wrote: << And before I'm told off, I do realize that the Trio and other students are at that hormonal age and that romance and pairings at this point are practically inevitable. I'm just hoping that JKR keeps it muted.>> Yep, that sounds ideal to me. After all this ranting, I admit that I could live quite happily with Ron/Hermione or Harry/Ginny. I might even applaud Parvarti/Lavender or Remus/Sirius. But overall, I'd prefer that the focus in these books remained on friendship and love that doesn't need to be romantic and sexual and let the fans play ourselves. XXX Kanna-Ophelia cleffa at start.com.au www.geocities.com/diversiontactics/ ffnet: KannaOphelia __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 23 15:57:23 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:57:23 -0000 Subject: Plump Wizards and Witches (WASFood&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions) In-Reply-To: <9r12tl+du5l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r4413+s23b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28086 pigwidgeon wrote: > > > QUESTION 5: Vernon and Dudley Dursley are fat. Aunt Petunia is > skinny, in spite of sharing the same meals. So far, we haven't heard > of fat wizards, albeit their food is, to say the least, hypercaloric. > Might this be an indication that Petunia is the one with yet > unrecognized magical powers? > I hope this hasn't been mentioned, but there is at least one fat wizard: Molly Weasley, who has been described as plump. We know for sure that she is large enough for Draco to comment on it at least once (calling her "porky" I think). Isn't the witch who pushes the snack cart also described as plump? Madame Maxime is another candidate ("big boned" is a euphamism in the U.S. for "overweight"). I guess this means either (1) there isn't a spell or potion for weight loss (or perhaps Molly can't afford it), or (2) being plump in the wizarding world carries no stigma. But then again, Draco did remark on Molly's size specifically to insult Ron, so there must be some stigma. Cindy (hoping the only overweight witch or wizard will not be Molly, the homemaker, because it would be such a stereotype) From tillrules at aol.com Tue Oct 23 15:59:31 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:59:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shippers and Non-Shippers Message-ID: <167.2b9a9c4.2906ede3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28087 In a message dated 10/23/2001 6:00:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: << I have been thinking of asking this question for a while, but I have never figured out exactly how to phrase it. So forgive me if this comes off as a little awkward. It isn't my intention to offend. As we all know, to date, there has been only a small amount of overt romantic activity described in the HP series. There is almost none in the first three books. In GoF, there is "The Unexpected Task" and "The Yule Ball." Those chapters were played mostly for laughs, IMHO. Occasionally, we see Harry or Ron be smitten with a girl, and Hermione had some rather muted interest in Krum. That's about it. Nevertheless, there is rampant speculation on the list about Ships, and development of Ships in future books is one of the most eagerly awaited developments. Entire discussion groups exist to discuss Ships. I must admit I have no interest in Ships (or Slash) among any of the adult characters. If Sirius and Snape became rivals over a woman, I would just melt away and die, I think. If Lupin hooked up with Mrs. Figg, well . . . I think I'd be turning those pages mighty fast. Even for Harry, Ron and Hermione, I would prefer that they stick to the knitting and not have significant romantic relationships until post-Book 7. I have no idea why this is, but perhaps it is a feeling that the next three books should be fast-paced adventures, and Ships would steer the books toward being romance novels? I really don't know. So then, the question: Does most people on the list look forward to more ships? If so, why would Ships enhance the books for you? Do the Shippers greatly outnumber the non-Shippers? >> I think romance has to be a part of the equation. These are early teens and soon to be teens. There would be romantic entanglements invovled in their interraction. They should not be the dominant theme, but as a side plot they can be fun and are a part of the story. The reason I like the idea of relationships is that JKR has handled the feelings of the characters so well thus far. Who cannot relate to how Ginny pines after Harry and thinks she's not good enough for him? Or Harry's infatuation for Cho? Or Hermione's frustration wiht the boys over the Yule Ball? JKR makes the realtionships scenes fun and important, without making them central to the plot. Also, there is the desire for a happy ending for all concerned. Human nature is for us to want the people (and int his case characters) we like to have a happy ending. Especially Harry. It seems he deserves that for all he's suffered so far. He's spent and will continue to spend his young adult years as the most important person in the world and fighting the most evil wizard ever, every year. I would seem that he at least deserves to have a girl friend. From amendels at lynx.neu.edu Tue Oct 23 16:12:44 2001 From: amendels at lynx.neu.edu (amendels at lynx.neu.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:12:44 -0000 Subject: Ginny inconsistancy? Message-ID: <9r44ts+fdi9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28088 Hi I am new so this may have been covered before, but it wasn't in the FAQ. At the end of Chamber of Secerets, Ginny is upset because she thiks she will be expelled from Hogwarts and says she's been wanting to go ever since Bill started. given at least one year between siblings ( and in some cases we know that it was two), how old could she have been when bill started hogwarts, my rough calculations put it at one or two years old. (Please help me out if I am wrong. Aurora From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Oct 23 16:08:19 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:08:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny inconsistancy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28089 > -----Original Message----- > From: amendels at lynx.neu.edu [mailto:amendels at lynx.neu.edu] > Hi I am new so this may have been covered before, but it > wasn't in the FAQ. At the end of Chamber of Secerets, Ginny is upset > because she thiks she will be expelled from Hogwarts and says > she's been wanting to go ever since Bill started. I don't know which edition you have, but in the US edition, it says, "since Bill went", which could mean when he went as a seventh year, at which time she could've been 2 or 3 - certainly old enough to realize that her big brothers weren't around much. So it might be a FLINT (inconsistency (as defined in the VFAQ)) but it also might not be. From cleffa at start.com.au Tue Oct 23 15:59:13 2001 From: cleffa at start.com.au (Kanna Ophelia) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 1:29:13 +0930 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Plump Wizards and Witches (WASFood&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28090 Original message from: "Cindy C." >Madame Maxime is another >candidate ("big boned" is a euphamism in the U.S. for "overweight"). Yes, but it can also just mean large framed - tall and wide - without any connotation of fat. Being a Pratchett fan, I tend to think of all wizards as the size of houses by default - maybe Hogwarts menus set their tastes young. It's the combination of fat *with* carbohydrates that scares me... >I guess this means either (1) there isn't a spell or potion for >weight loss (or perhaps Molly can't afford it), or (2) being plump in >the wizarding world carries no stigma. But then again, Draco did >remark on Molly's size specifically to insult Ron, so there must be >some stigma. Exactly... And "dumpy," which the Dursleys of all people uses to describe her, is hardly a compliment, implying, I think, weight combined with lack of height. But there's a third alternative, which is that overweight carries stigma to idiots who have already displayed a range of other prejudices , and that Molly is nevertheless healthy and happy with her fuller figure. Not finding the Gwyneth Paltrow/Victoria Beckham gaunt look particularly appealing, myself, I've think Molly would be distinctly appealing, especially in her younger days - a small curvy redhead. Lovely. (Of course, one of the perils of romantic fanfic is that I tend to fall in love with characters along with my pov character...) For all that, I bet I'd use a weight loss potion on myself in a flash. XXX Kanna-Ophelia cleffa at start.com.au www.geocities.com/diversiontactics/ ffnet: KannaOphelia __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 23 16:52:15 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:52:15 -0000 Subject: Ginny inconsistancy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r477v+t8tf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28091 Aurora wrote: > > Hi I am new so this may have been covered before, but it > > wasn't in the FAQ. At the end of Chamber of Secerets, Ginny is upset > > because she thiks she will be expelled from Hogwarts and says > > she's been wanting to go ever since Bill started. > Heidi wrote: > I don't know which edition you have, but in the US edition, it says, "since > Bill went", which could mean when he went as a seventh year, at which time > she could've been 2 or 3 - certainly old enough to realize that her big > brothers weren't around much. So it might be a FLINT (inconsistency (as > defined in the VFAQ)) but it also might not be. This is a close one, but I'd lean toward FLINT. Ginny was born in 1981. If Charlie starts Hogwarts at age 11 in 1978 (according to Lexicon timeline), then he was born in 1966. That means Bill was born in 1965 or earlier, making him at least 16 years older than Ginny. If Bill left Hogwarts at age 18, then Ginny was 2 during his seventh year. So if she's claiming to remember something that happened when she was two . . . well, it starts to look like a FLINT. Someone should check my math, but I think Aurora just stormed onto the scene with a true FLINT. In looking up the dates on the Lexicon, I noticed that there is an 8- year age difference between Percy and Charlie, with all other known age differences in the Weasley family at 1-2 years (except for Bill, for whom we don't have a birth year yet). So what happened in that 8- year span that caused Molly and Arthur take a break from having children? Or did they have other children in that period (during Voldemort's first reign, BTW) who did not survive? Cindy From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 16:50:35 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:50:35 -0000 Subject: There was an Interhouse Championship in GOF Snape proves it Message-ID: <9r474r+7o6m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28092 I just thought I would throw this out there. In chapter 18 "the weighing of the wands" Harry and Malfoy get into it and cast spells on Goyle and Hermione. After this happens on page 300 Snape then gives Ron and Harry detention and takes 50 points from Gryffindor. This means that there was a house championship in book 4, which makes sence seeing as how it is a way for Hogwarts to promote good behavior between it's students. Does anyone think that this detail will be addressed (even briefly) in OoF? Scott From alexp at alltel.net Tue Oct 23 18:01:42 2001 From: alexp at alltel.net (alexp at alltel.net) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:01:42 -0000 Subject: PoA printing Error Book Message-ID: <9r4ba6+jm3v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28093 I have a copy of PoA That is Printed upside down. When [Year 3] is at the top, Harry Potter and the PoA is read from top to bottom, if the book is opened, you are at the last page, upside down. You havev to flip it over to read. Does anyone else have a PoA like this. Does Anyone Want it? Alex From am025392 at skynet.be Tue Oct 23 18:17:53 2001 From: am025392 at skynet.be (am025392) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:17:53 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter 9 Summary and Discussion Q's References: <73.14d8c18c.290632ed@aol.com> Message-ID: <002201c15bef$08f26820$773688d9@skynet.be> No: HPFGUIDX 28094 Discussion Questions: 2. The narrator explains that Harry considers Draco Malfoy to be a worse enemy than Dudley. Why? Malfoy's threats to Harry are hardly more sophisticated than Dudley's; the only difference appears to be that Malfoy's enmity is based on his philosophy rather than mere sibling piggishness. Harry appears to have developed a shell against sneers, so why should Malfoy's bother him more than Dudley's? > Malfoy's enmity is far worse then D's. Why? Well, because his hatred is based on a 'philosophy', on the way Draco has been brought up. Ickle Dudleykins only copies his father's behaviour. Granted, this behaviour can be dangerous enough, but it is not murderous, like the Malfoy's. Dudley is simply stupid, the Malfoys are evil but I secretely think there is hope still for Draco. Kristel From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 23 19:41:40 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:41:40 -0500 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers References: <9r3pfh+eaps@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BD5C7F4.7000701@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28095 Hi -- Oh, shipping! One of my favorite topics.... Cindy C. wrote: > > As we all know, to date, there has been only a small amount of overt > romantic activity described in the HP series. There is almost none > in the first three books. In GoF, there is "The Unexpected Task" > and "The Yule Ball." Those chapters were played mostly for laughs, > IMHO. I'm of the opinion that these chapters are meant to introduce us to the notion that the characters are growing up, becoming really & truly adolescents. JKR has said several times that she doesn't intend to keep the HP characters rooted forever in pre-pubescence. I for one applaud this. It just wouldn't make any sense to me for 17 yr old Harry, Ron and Hermione at the end of Book 7 to have had no thoughts of or experience with romance or sexuality (yeah, I mostly think Hermione is younger ... reasons better saved for another post). GoF may also be setting us up for something larger plot-wise in this regard. It certainly hits us all over the head with the fact that Ron has a crush on Hermione. I don't think it's possible to definitely guess whether those chapters were just a humorous subplot or a humorous subplot that gives us some vital background info &/or sets up a more important subplot in a later book. I must say that I'm very against the recent trend to try & label what seems like it could have been "cut" from any of the books. It seems to me that it's completely impossible to guess which details may seem inocuous enough to us readers now but may be very important on down the road. I trust that the editors have at least said, "Hey, can we cut this down by trimming here?" If it didn't get trimmed, my guess is that JKR said, "No way can you eliminate *that*..." In fact, I think I recall a post-GoF interview where JKR said something to the effect that she was very happy with GoF and that it was as lean as it could possibly be to get the story told in the way it needed to be conveyed (rough paraphrase). > I must admit I have no interest in Ships (or Slash) among any of the > adult characters. > Even for Harry, Ron and Hermione, I would prefer that they stick to > the knitting and not have significant romantic relationships until > post-Book 7. I have no idea why this is, but perhaps it is a feeling > that the next three books should be fast-paced adventures, and Ships > would steer the books toward being romance novels? I really don't > know. I'm curious why some people regard *any* introduction of sexuality as turning the books into "romance novels" (which then, under popular consensus, will make the HP books somehow less on the literary scale apparently). I would, as I mentioned above, be far more annoyed if JKR were to try & sell us that these characters who will be adults (UK age of consent is 17?) at the end of the series have had *no* interactions of a romantic nature at all. Then again, I think Cindy & I may be in disagreement about the basic nature of the books, since I regard the series as novels with a protagonist who starts out as a child rather than as "childrens' books." I *like* my books to have some element of romantic love in there somewhere. In looking at my list of favorite books as we've been discussing over on OT-Chatter, I'd say not a single one is completely devoid of the concept of romantic love. It may not always be central to the plot, but it's there somewhere & in some fashion. I know Ebony keeps threatening to write an essay on "The Four Loves" as identified by C.S. Lewis & HP (and I do wish she'd do this!). I don't think the characters would remain as rich & fully-faceted & as beloved as they are if they don't continue to grow, both in a chronological sense & in the less quantifiable maturity/emotional sense as well. For growth to occur beliveably IMO, we just can't have 3 characters go through adolescence without romantic entanglements. Yes, not everyone dates in high school. But, did you escape high school without any crushes or love interests or *thinking* about it *at all*? Probably not. IMO, JKR needn't turn the books into the equivalent of Harlequin dime-novels in order to address this very real part of human life though. Based on my reading experience, most great literature does have some element of eros. We've been talking about Narnia some lately, so I'll throw in that I read that series for the first time recently & didn't like it all that much. It was "okay." The plot was handled well & I liked the overall themes & resolution thereof (the Christian allegory was very nicely done). But, the characterization left alot to be desired IMO. I agree with whoever noted that Lewis' descriptions are lovely, but the characters seemed flat somehow to me. Not only did I not *love* them, I didn't feel at all connected to them either. I attribute this at least in part to the fact that there was a lack of romance/sexuality. It was, however, hard I think to pin down how old the characters actually were, so maybe the absence of romance was warranted if they were in fact intended to be pre-pubescent. I can fully see FITD, which involves romance, advancing the plot & serving as an important subplot to boot. [If you don't know what FITD stands for, you haven't read our VFAQs lately!] I'm sure there are other scenarios besides FITD that JKR could devise that would also serve an important purpose plot-wise & involve ships. The other thing I'll note is that I think it would be nigh on impossible & extremely disturbing if the ships angle were completely dropped at this point anyway. There *has* to be *some* resolution to R/H -- whether it's (a) R & H becoming a couple for some period of time at least, (b) Hermione declaring that it's Harry she wants & FITD, (c) Hermione rejecting Ron on other grounds (Krum for example), or (d) at a minimum, Harry noticing that Ron doesn't seem as keen on Hermione as he'd thought at the end of GoF. JKR can't just drop this storyline entirely though. And personally, I don't think it's feasible since I think it ties into a reasonably important subplot: FITD. Penny From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 19:49:01 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:49:01 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movies? In-Reply-To: <9r2jcb+8m7j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r4hjd+uu2f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28096 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Personally, I'd much prefer to see one solid three-hour movie that > cuts down a lot of the background stuff in the beginning of the > book. I know this is controversial, but I'd eliminate the QWC > entirely, just for starters. > > Cindy I have the same feeling towards a two-movies scenario--not a good idea. I would favour a mini-series to keep everything in but can't see how WB would make the truck-load of money out of that. I'll keep the QWC but there are lots of things that are not important plotwise and can be cut down, e.g. the S.P.E.W. (sorry Hermione), the Bagman sub-plot and siriusly trim down the Rita sub-plot. No mercy here. I'll keep everything from Padfoot Returns onwards and make most of the cut from the first 400 pages or so. From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 19:49:14 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:49:14 -0000 Subject: school years = how old is hermione?? In-Reply-To: <20011022235810.96736.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9r4hjq+u5ab@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28097 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Nicola Isham wrote: > well..just to throw a spanner in the works I also am > English and went to school in England. I was one of > several people who were 'young for my year' - not an > uncommon phenomenon. I was born in January so in > theory should have been towards the older end of my > year (Assuming they start counting around September). > However, i was actually a year ABOVE that - so in my > final year of school when everyone turned 18, I turned > 17 - and there were heaps of people I knew the in same > position. [snip] It's a spanner I quite welcome! Testimony from one who knows. On a marginally-related topic, there is now a required minimum age for entry to U.S. colleges/universities (unfortunately I cannot remember whether it is 10 or 12 years of age) because of there being younger students (child prodigies) who were being admitted who were not emotionally ready for the academic rigor. (These were kids who were teaching themselves calculus when they were five years old, but they couldn't take it when a professor started playing devil's advocate and arguing vehemently with them.) I could easily picture Hermione's parents being at a loss for what to do with her academically (she was probably bored to tears in primary school) and welcoming the Hogwarts admissions news with open arms. It would both explain any peculiar events in her childhood and give her a place to study where she would be challenged. --Barb (who set Hermione's birth year as 1980 in her fic before she had any clue there was debate on this issue) From mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk Tue Oct 23 20:12:46 2001 From: mat at hooper11.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:12:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: food and drink + sport + Hagrid In-Reply-To: <20011023122057.86694.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011023211158.00a151c0@pop.freeserve.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28098 At 13:20 23/10/01, you wrote: >Now this is NOT meant to be patronizing,but I don't know whether you >belong to the (my) generation of Monty Python warshippers. They did that >hilarious "fresh fruit"- Royal Army sketch- try to get it, if you can, the >colonel's "fruitophobia" might equal yours. Susanna is that the sketch where the other Pythons are trying to kill John Cleese with things like bananas and other types of fruit is it...? Martin Hooper AIM:martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From john at walton.vu Tue Oct 23 20:18:58 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:18:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movies? In-Reply-To: <9r4hjd+uu2f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28099 MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote: > > I'll keep the QWC but there are lots of things that are not important > plotwise and can be cut down, e.g. the S.P.E.W. (sorry Hermione), the > Bagman sub-plot and siriusly trim down the Rita sub-plot. No mercy > here. Problem is, we don't KNOW that it's a subplot! Don't forget, JKR has laid enough of a trail for us in previous books that SPEW and Bagman could very well be very important indeed --John ____________________________________________ "Do not thump the book of G'Quon. It is disrespectful." -- G'Kar, Babylon 5 John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Oct 23 20:27:00 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:27:00 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers In-Reply-To: <167.2b9a9c4.2906ede3@aol.com> Message-ID: <9r4jqk+r379@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28100 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tillrules at a... wrote: > The reason I like the idea of relationships is that JKR has handled the feelings of the characters so well thus far. Who cannot relate to how Ginny pines after Harry and thinks she's not good enough for him? Or Harry's infatuation for Cho? Or Hermione's frustration wiht the boys over the Yule Ball? JKR makes the realtionships scenes fun and important, without making them central to the plot.> Tillrules hit the nail on the head for me. I was Ginny many, many, *sigh* many times when I was younger. I wasn't shy, but boy, did I know how to pick those unrequited crushes! One thing to add, though, is that I have a feeling these romantic trysts may become a bit more central to the plot. There's the whole FITD theory as well as the possibility that certain pairing-offs may cause others to become jealous or feel left out and act on those feelings, then causing some ugly results. > > Also, there is the desire for a happy ending for all concerned. It would seem that he at least deserves to have a girl > friend.> Here I must agree again. Harry deserves whatever it is he wants. If I was 14, a witch, a student at Hogwarts and a fictional character, well, then I'd have to be that girlfriend for Harry. As it is, I am 31, a Muggle and, last time I checked, a member of the RL, so all I have is my imagination (I do have one hell of a cutie boyfriend, though). I can't lie; I read the scene where Harry asked Cho to the dance over and over again on my first reading of GoF. Even now I always hope she says yes when he asks her. --jenny from ravenclaw **************************** From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 20:41:41 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:41:41 -0000 Subject: school years = how old is hermione?? In-Reply-To: <9r4hjq+u5ab@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r4km5+8h2f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28101 Just because Hermione is smart & top of her class, does not mean she is younger (and therefore more of a "proteg?"). I have a classmate who has a similar birthday (in fact earlier) to Hermione's, is top of the class, and is almost one year older than I (as I my birthday is RIGHT before the cut-off, making me only 17 for most of the summer after graduation). What proof do we have? We do know 100% that JKR stated that a magic quill writes down the names of people as they were born & gives them a letter after their ELEVENTH birthdays! If Hermione were still 10 when first coming to Hogwarts, she wouldn't have (according to JKR--does this count as canon??) even received her letter yet. Even if you maintain that Hermione could not hold the secret that long (assuming she received her letter in the September before Hogwarts begun), we could also assume that students receive the letter the summer after their eleventh birthdays. This also works. Not to mention, by the time you reach that age, intelligence has pretty much evened out. I'm a whole lot smarter than people born almost a year earlier than I...so birthdates are really arbitrary (except when you want to go out!) in secondary school. Hermione could just be small for her age--she is female, after all--compared against two boys. It also doesn't matter what grade she was in in Muggle school, as I'm sure Hogwarts could care less about what she is doing in the Muggle education system. There is also NO EVIDENCE suggested that Hermione was a "special case" and therefore sent her letter early. McGonagall and others only show her favor AFTER she arrives at Hogwarts and shows her obvious intelligence to them herself. As someone who lives this situation of a birthday "deadline" in school, I maintain that it's only logical that Hermione was like every other child at Hogwarts and arrived being 11--there's no evidence from canon (in fact some to contradict this theory) and it's not the mot logical course for an author to write into her story. -Megan (who almost wishes she had been born in September--not August--so she could go out with the rest of her 18-yr-old friends!) From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Oct 23 20:43:42 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:43:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: school years = how old is hermione?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28102 > -----Original Message----- > From: Megan [mailto:virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com] > What proof do we have? We do know 100% that JKR stated that a magic > quill writes down the names of people as they were born & gives them a > letter after their ELEVENTH birthdays! If Hermione were still 10 when > first coming to Hogwarts, she wouldn't have (according to JKR--does > this count as canon??) even received her letter yet. That's not actually what she said. In an interview on the Scholastic website, she said: <> I know it's been written differently in certain fanfics, but that's word for word from the scholastic transcript at http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Oct 23 21:04:01 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:04:01 -0500 Subject: school years = how old is hermione?? References: <9r4km5+8h2f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BD5DB41.7070601@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28103 Hi -- Megan wrote: > > What proof do we have? We do know 100% that JKR stated that a magic > quill writes down the names of people as they were born & gives them a > letter after their ELEVENTH birthdays! No, the interview response from JKR says this: "In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are turning 11." [JKR Chat -- Scholastic -- Feb 2000] People *who are turning* 11! There's no mention of *after* age 11. This could mean that anyone who will turn 11 during the calendar year receives a Hogwarts letter to begin at the beginning of the fall term on Sept 1st, even if they don't turn 11 until December 31st. Penny From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 22:06:11 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:06:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (again); Shipping; GOF Movie (x2) In-Reply-To: <3BD5DB41.7070601@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9r4pkj+2os1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28104 A few quick things:- --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Hi -- H birthdays! > > No, the interview response from JKR says this: > > "In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a > magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment > book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to > the people who are turning 11." > > [JKR Chat -- Scholastic -- Feb 2000] > > People *who are turning* 11! There's no mention of *after* age 11. > This could mean that anyone who will turn 11 during the calendar year > receives a Hogwarts letter to begin at the beginning of the fall term on > Sept 1st, even if they don't turn 11 until December 31st. > > Penny Or the opposite obviously. The problem with JKR's answer is we have no idea what McGonagall is checking for or when they're turning 11. Its rather neutral - what is interesting is that JKR actually volunteers this information without being asked, which means she's at least thought about it. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > I have often been accused of being a SHIPper, but I'm really more a > canon-no-shipper, and it's because I think they're going to have more > important things to worry about than romance... (yes, I am of the Hermione Is > Younger Than Harry group. So?) (On an interesting note is there any connection between preffered ship and prefered age? It's probably just a coincidence, but after reading Heidi, Penny and Ebony's posts I couldn't help wondering.) In the interview that was just pointed out there is of course the interesting quote:- "Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley? In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-)" I know she's just joking, but at least suggests future possibilities, surely? Similarly JKR emphasised quite a lot the "wrong people" thing in Book 4. Which leads one to wonder about the right people - which starts to make me agree that it probably isn't appropriate for the rest of the series. I don't know, maybe a humour R/H sideplot would be alright. I agree that I don't see her just leaving the thing hanging. As for the movie - I have to say that I think it would be rather slack to split it into 2 - although it does suggest that they're trying to preserve as much as possible, which is nice. Still, I'm sure if they put their minds to it they can get it in under 3 hours - it just has nowhere to naturally split into 2. Jon Who also noticed the following quote:- "I heard a lot of rumors as to why the fourth book isn't out yet in the U.S. What is the truth and when will it be out? The reason it's not out yet is because I haven't finished it. :-) The first book took me five years to write, so I'm speeding up, a lot! But I still can't produce a novel in six months. " and wished she'd kept to pattern. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Oct 23 22:28:15 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:28:15 -0400 Subject: Prejudice and Draco Message-ID: <27CF9FB7.48D7480C.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28105 Heidi wrote: > You know, people keep saying that at Hogwarts, Draco should be exposed to > different and positive ideas, but I just don't see it. Other than at the > 4th year leaving feast, Dumbledore never addresses the students on > issues of bias and prejudice- not even 2nd year when muggle-borns are > being petrified and the students are terrified. So where would Draco > learn them from? In class? We haven't seen any class where ethics are > taught. The Slytherin common-room? Not all those students' parents are > Death Eaters- so do they debate blood purity issues? How would a > student's opinions trump Lucius Malfoy's in Draco's eyes? The ideas are present by example: no attempt to segregate muggle-borns from others; Filch, Hagrid given jobs; later, Lupin given a job and Hagrid promoted; the school song sung anarchically; punishment by detention doing useful things, not magical punishments like the ferret; no dark arts taught, only defence; Dementors forbidden; Apart from Filch, Draco is very aware of all these things and he (or his father) correctly deduces Dumbledore's 'Muggle-loving' propensities. OK his dad could know from other experience and tell Draco, but Draco is clear that Hogwarts has a different approach to the favoured Malfoy one. In some ways, if you disagree with the philosophy of a place, it's almost worse if it's never articulated clearly or pushed at you - you feel that all the time people are *assuming* things but you never get anything to single out and argue with or criticise. If there is a clear programme you can articulate your rival programme. David __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Oct 23 22:29:48 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:29:48 -0400 Subject: Potions summary Message-ID: <25D77A84.0C492C1E.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28106 > 5) Some potions seem to need time to stew and simmer. Ex: ?You should have > finished adding your ingredients by now; this potions needs to stew before > it can be drunk?? (POA 127) and the polyjuice potion has to go for ages > Potions class does have homework; however, I don't think we ever know the > nature of it (please, someone correct me if I'm wrong). Possible homework > ideas may be writing essays on the merits of a particular potion or possible > applications of a potion. The other obvious homework is to write out the recipe or write up what you did and what happened. Or explaining what happens if you add bats' wings instead of rats' kidneys to a concoction. Just like chemistry at school. Questions: > 1) I?ve asked this before, but I thought I?d ask it again. Besides the > magical quality of the ingredients themselves, there doesn?t seem to be any > overt magic used in the making of a potion. Do you think that if a Muggle > were to prepare a potion correctly, it would work? If not, why not? Perhaps, although no wands or spells are used, there is still magic from the wizard. After all, both wands and spells are most easily understood as focussing and amplifying devices for the wizard's intentions. Waving a stick - even if it does contain a magical object, or saying a word are no more or less magical than stirring a cauldron. Cindy said something about wands not being used for potions. I can't remember, but Molly Weasley does use a wand in making a soup. > 2) What is the difference between a potion, draft, draught, solution, and > concoction? Or is there no distinction and they are simply arbitrary names? > (I wouldn?t know, I struggled quite a bit in chemistry class in school!) I would say some rather loose distinctions: a potion covers the full range of things, as does probably a concoction, but the emphasis in the latter is on the delicacy or complexity of the process. A draught or draft is specifically something to be drunk, rather than, for example, applied externally. A solution is a potion where one substance has been dissolved in another - in many cases it is clear from the description that potions are not straight solutions but mixtures (like mud) or colloids (like mayonnaise). I see someone has pointed out the Mandrake Draft. Since in the past I have laughed inwardly at listies laboriously wondering how petrified people could swallow it and thought *of course* it can just be applied externally, I am now hoist by my own petard. Call me Lockhart. But I'm pretty sure (away at conference, no dict to hand) a draught is to be drunk. Presumably originally something that was drawn, as from a well? Craig, you're good at this stuff? > 3) Why do you think Snape is so good at Potions? Does it fit his > personality? He would be good at almost anything he tries (although it is hard to see him as a convincing liar - how did he manage to spy for Dumbledore?), with the posible exception of Quidditch. Potions appear to demand precision even more than charms - that fits; potions lessons in the main require less teaching as opposed to supervision - the students learn from doing long experiments during which he can content himself with snarling at Neville, reading extracts from Witch Weekly, checking to see if more Boomslang skin has disappeared etc. > 4) It should be noted the Madam Pomfrey uses Potions as well (Pepperup > Potion); do you think these are drastically different from the kind that > Snape prepares? Do you think Snape could prepare ?health? potions or does it > demand extra training? I think not very different; a little extra specific knowledge would be required - it's broadly the difference between pharmacy and chemistry but IMO they are closer in the wizarding world as potions are largely designed to affect people directly not as industrial processes. > Is this a silly question? If the answer is 'Yes', then it doesn't deserve an answer, in which case it isn't 'Yes', so it must be 'N... Oh, you mean the question about Snape and Pomfrey... oh no, it isn't silly at all, I'm sure they'd be very happy together, er, where were we? > 5) Would you personally enjoy Potions class? Forget about controversial > Snape for the moment, what about the actual class itself? Oh, yes, quite apart from the stock 'I'd do anything if I could get into Hogwarts...'. > 6)Fun Question: If you could make up a potion, what would be its name, what > would it do, and what ingredients would go into it? Fertiliser to grow chocolate bar plants, and similar things. ~Amber (Please, please, please, please, please, someone respond!) Hi Amber __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 23 22:48:42 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:48:42 -0000 Subject: Length of GoF/Shipping (WAS Shippers and Non-Shippers) In-Reply-To: <3BD5C7F4.7000701@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9r4s4a+t74v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28107 Penny wrote: > I must say that I'm very against the recent trend to try & label what > seems like it could have been "cut" from any of the books. It seems to > me that it's completely impossible to guess which details may seem > inocuous enough to us readers now but may be very important on down the > road. I trust that the editors have at least said, "Hey, can we cut > this down by trimming here?" If it didn't get trimmed, my guess is that > JKR said, "No way can you eliminate *that*..." In fact, I think I > recall a post-GoF interview where JKR said something to the effect that > she was very happy with GoF and that it was as lean as it could possibly > be to get the story told in the way it needed to be conveyed (rough > paraphrase). > Penny, if I agree to be a Shipper, will you agree that GoF could be cut down a bit? :-) Seriously, I think the speculation about what could be cut from the series and from GoF especially is really interesting (or at least as interesting as any other speculation we do on the list). Most of it comes in the context of trying to figure out how to make the PoA and GoF movies work, and the day is certainly coming when someone will cut great hunks from the last two books to make the movies of reasonable duration. I'll certainly allow, however, that most folks don't appear at all interested in the exercise, which is fine, of course. But even if we talk about the books only, I think it's interesting to separate out sub-plots and think about how they work together, whether there's some room to cut, and which parts might be more important than others. Can this be done when we don't know what's coming in the next three books? Sure, why not? It just means we might turn out to be wrong, and I can live with that, even if I have to eat my words when the final book comes out in, what, 2008. If speculating weren't entertaining, then there'd be no point in trying to figure out Hermione's age, or the Triwizard Cup as Portkey, or boggarts, etc. Now, if JKR thinks she has to have every word of the first 400 pages of GoF, well, maybe she's right. After all, she's the one with the master outline. But then again, maybe she's not right, and she wouldn't be the first writer to believe that her work couldn't possibly be any leaner. (And of course, the fact that JKR says something like that in an interview doesn't mean she really means it deep down, as I'd hardly expect her to say, "Oh, yes, the whole thing was terribly bloated, but it's too late to fix it now.") So far, though, I'm not entirely convinced that everything in GoF is necessary for subsequent books. For instance, in the early parts of GoF, we see things that could be important later, but I can't for the life of me figure out how. We see a boy engorge a slug (after we already know about engorgement spells via Ton Tongue Toffees, BTW). We see toddlers ride toy brooms. We see minor characters (Bagman, Crouch, some other wizard) apparate. We see our heroes have breakfast and get winded walking up a hill. It just struck me as unnecessary, but, hey, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about things in HP. The thing that really might be going on, though, is that JKR might be using some of these little details as misdirection or something. You know, if we see toddlers ride broomsticks and engorge slugs, it won't stand out so much that the tent smells like cabbage, so we won't focus on that detail. I don't know if this is a good use of misdirection or not. But maybe that's part of the picture. Cindy (who might be ready to re-classify herself from "Anti-shipper" to "Maybe-shipper-if-it's-done-with-humor-dignity-and-class-and-even- then-not-too-often)" From ebonyink at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 23:19:42 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:19:42 -0000 Subject: school years = how old is hermione?? In-Reply-To: <9r4km5+8h2f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r4tue+r336@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28108 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: We do know 100% that JKR stated that a magic > quill writes down the names of people as they were born & gives them a > letter after their ELEVENTH birthdays! Megan, canon contradicts you--if the letters arrived AFTER the students' eleventh birthday, then why in the world did Harry start receiving his beforehand? Barb, I assumed 1980 when writing fic too... and was really very shocked to learn of the existence of the seventy-niners. Even after reading the British eds, it still doesn't make any sense to me. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From ebonyink at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 23:28:20 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:28:20 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers In-Reply-To: <9r3pfh+eaps@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r4uek+qtu5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28109 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > So then, the question: Does most people on the list look forward to > more ships? If so, why would Ships enhance the books for you? Do > the Shippers greatly outnumber the non-Shippers? Oh, goodness... I think I'm just about shipped out! Actually, from talking to kids in the target age range for the series, it seems as if they actually care more about the romances than we do. I think if you took a poll, you'd find that proportionately more adults are no-shippers. My mood towards shipping in the remaining three books shifts like the wind. At the present time, I think I could live without it. I'm less pro-ship than I am anti OBHWF. I don't think it fits the books. However, I do agree with a lot of what Penny said. The one thing that bothers me about the shipping vs. non-shipping issue is that the shippers are often seen as not being serious or careful readers. This is most certainly not the case. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From ebonyink at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 23:36:03 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:36:03 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (again); Shipping; GOF Movie (x2) In-Reply-To: <9r4pkj+2os1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r4ut3+il0g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28110 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jonathandupont at h... wrote: > > (On an interesting note is there any connection between preffered > ship and prefered age? It's probably just a coincidence, but after > reading Heidi, Penny and Ebony's posts I couldn't help wondering.) Barb is a no-shipper and is in the 1980 camp. And I think there are some others. If so, speak up! We don't want the list vets saying, "Oh, there goes those CRAZY H/H and pro-Draco people again." I just think we tend to be contrary... notice how we are the voices of dissent on just about every issue of importance in the fandom. :-D --Ebony AKA AngieJ (a post-canon H/H, anti-OBHWF, Draco-can-be- redeemed, Snape-is-a-vampire, pro-1980, Small Hogwartian who will never in a million years qualify for L.O.O.N....) From john at walton.vu Tue Oct 23 23:36:41 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:36:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shippers and Non-Shippers In-Reply-To: <9r4uek+qtu5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28111 Ebony wrote: > Actually, from talking to kids in the target age range for the > series, it seems as if they actually care more about the romances > than we do. I think if you took a poll, you'd find that > proportionately more adults are no-shippers. Possibly because they feel more involved? i.e. they are much more likely to say "wow, wouldn't Ron make a crap boyfriend?" -- "Yeah, especially for Hermione", because it's their age group. --John, who wouldn't dream of saying that R/H is wrong, oh no. ::runs away before he's firebombed by militant R/Hers:: ____________________________________________ "A program is a spell cast over a computer, turning input into error messages." --Anon John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 23 23:45:11 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:45:11 -0000 Subject: Can Buckbeak Get to Black in Time? (filk) Message-ID: <9r4ve7+gkdk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28112 Can Buckbeak Get to Black in Time? (PoA, Chap. 21) (To the tune of Get Me to the Church on Time, from My Fair Lady) Dedicated to Catherine (who recently called for more MFL filks) THE SCENE: The Entrance Hall, June 6 1993, 9 p.m. in the evening. The time-turning HARRY & HERMIONE suddenly appear, and immediately duck into a broom closet HARRY We are both doing a 180 It's 9 p.m., so say the chimes We'll solve this crisis With magic devices Hermione has turned the time HERMIONE We must now make our way to Hagrid's We must not be seen, that is prime! If we should falter The future we'll alter We must not change the course of time If we see Hagrid, better step inside If we see ourselves, better duck and hide! (Making their way to Hagrid's hut, HARRY and HERMIONE witness their past selves emerging) BOTH It's strange to eavesdrop on our past selves Surely this is no nursery rhyme It will not be fun This whole scene to rerun Can Buckbeak get to Black, can we get him on track, Can we get Buckbeak there to Black in time? HERMIONE We know that Buckbeak can be stubborn He won't leave the scene of the crime Mcnair'll be axin' If our speed's not maxin' And Buckbeak won't reach Black in time HARRY I thought my dad was my redeemer But the form which I saw was mine I cried Expecto! Then Prongs came direct-o Dementors won't get us this time Grab a seat on Buckbeak `bove his hips `Cause dementors are puckering their lips! (With HARRY and HERMIONE gripping him tightly, Buckbeak soars toward the West Tower in which Sirius Black is held prisoner). BOTH We're soaring upward in the moonlight Higher and higher Buckbeak climbs We now discover Why he's on the cover We got Buckbeak to Black Let Corny catch the flack Because Buckbeak has got to Black in time - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 24 00:12:12 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:12:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's age (again); Shipping; GOF Movie (x2) In-Reply-To: <9r4ut3+il0g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28113 Ebony wrote: > --Ebony AKA AngieJ (a post-canon H/H, anti-OBHWF, Draco-can-be- > redeemed, Snape-is-a-vampire, pro-1980, Small Hogwartian who will > never in a million years qualify for L.O.O.N....) And, surely, Vice-President of R.I.O.T.G.E.A.R.! Don't forget that one, Ebmeister :D --John ____________________________________________ Don't join the book burners. Do not think you are going to conceal thoughts by concealing evidence that they ever existed. -Dwight D Eisenhower John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Oct 24 00:15:49 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:15:49 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers In-Reply-To: <9r3pfh+eaps@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r517l+pr2f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28114 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > I have been thinking of asking this question for a while, but I have > never figured out exactly how to phrase it. So forgive me if this > comes off as a little awkward. It isn't my intention to offend. > > As we all know, to date, there has been only a small amount of overt > romantic activity described in the HP series. There is almost none > in the first three books. In GoF, there is "The Unexpected Task" > and "The Yule Ball." Those chapters were played mostly for laughs, > IMHO. Occasionally, we see Harry or Ron be smitten with a girl, and > Hermione had some rather muted interest in Krum. That's about it. > > Nevertheless, there is rampant speculation on the list about Ships, > and development of Ships in future books is one of the most eagerly > awaited developments. Entire discussion groups exist to discuss > Ships. > > I must admit I have no interest in Ships (or Slash) among any of the > adult characters. If Sirius and Snape became rivals over a woman, I > would just melt away and die, I think. If Lupin hooked up with Mrs. > Figg, well . . . I think I'd be turning those pages mighty fast. > Even for Harry, Ron and Hermione, I would prefer that they stick to > the knitting and not have significant romantic relationships until > post-Book 7. I have no idea why this is, but perhaps it is a feeling > that the next three books should be fast-paced adventures, and Ships > would steer the books toward being romance novels? I really don't > know. > > So then, the question: Does most people on the list look forward to > more ships? If so, why would Ships enhance the books for you? Do > the Shippers greatly outnumber the non-Shippers? I'm placing myself firmly in the undecided camp, in the sense that I have no burning desire to pair off the students in any particular fashion. So whether R/Hr or H/Hr or H/G become the romantic flavor of the month, or not, is not of particular concern to me. However, I do think that the issue of attraction has to be addressed in some fashion. We've had some inklings of who's attracted to who and it would seem odd to me if these sub-plots simply disappeared. I think that JKR can certainly work teenage romance in without it becoming too much of a distraction to the main thrust of the story. As for the adult characters, we've had some discussion on the list regarding the apparent lack of adult pairings other than the Weasleys and the Dursleys. We have seen no indication that any of the major adult characters have significant-others. I have always found this sort of disturbing. Granted, we get the story from Harry's POV and he probably doesn't spend a lot of time wondering about whether or not there is a Mr. Hooch or a Mrs. Flitwick. And, yes, maybe we can assume these people exist and are in evidence to the students at meal times or Christmas, etc. But the fact that no one is ever mentioned gives me a feeling of incompleteness. And, no, I don't think that everyone needs to be paired off. It's just that I get this incredible sense of solitariness at times when thinking about the adults. Marianne, who'd be more than happy to see Remus and/or Sirius and/or Severus paired off with that perfect someone From ebonyink at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 01:12:45 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:12:45 -0000 Subject: Can Buckbeak Get to Black in Time? (filk) In-Reply-To: <9r4ve7+gkdk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r54id+1kd1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28115 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > Can Buckbeak Get to Black in Time? (PoA, Chap. 21) > > (To the tune of Get Me to the Church on Time, from My Fair Lady) > > Dedicated to Catherine (who recently called for more MFL filks) > I like this filk for two reasons: 1) it's from one of my favorite scenes in the series so far and 2) I'm going to be teaching *Pygmalion* in December and want to wrap it up with a showing of *My Fair Lady*, which I've never actually seen before. Great as always, Caius. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 24 01:33:14 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:33:14 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (again); Shipping; GOF Movie (x2) In-Reply-To: <9r4ut3+il0g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r55oq+nu9s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28116 > --Ebony AKA AngieJ (a post-canon H/H, anti-OBHWF, Draco-can-be- > redeemed, Snape-is-a-vampire, pro-1980, Small Hogwartian who will > never in a million years qualify for L.O.O.N....) For me, the membership acronyms are stacking up like planes over LaGuardia. Cindy (pending membership to S.A.D.[Society of Apologists for the Director], Draco-will-never-be redeemed; HP-is-mostly-a-children's- book; Snape-is-not-a-vampire; Bagman-is-definitely-a-DE; Neville-has- a-reverse-memory-charm; Hermione-is-1979-or-1980-or-thereabouts; Big Hogwartian; Canonite; Anti-Shipper; S.S.H.I.A.B.B. [Stop Saying Hermione Is A Bossy Braggart]; C.R.A.B. [Cut Ron A Break]; and whatever we decided for the Lupin group.) And (just for Penny) Percy. Is. Not. Evil. From cleffa at start.com.au Wed Oct 24 01:34:25 2001 From: cleffa at start.com.au (Kanna Ophelia) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:04:25 +0930 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shippers and Non-Shippers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28117 Original message from: Penny & Bryce >I'm curious why some people regard *any* introduction of sexuality as >turning the books into "romance novels" (which then, under popular >consensus, will make the HP books somehow less on the literary scale >apparently). Ah, it's not anti-pop culture snobbery, as I see HP more as fascinating and amusing pop culture than genuine literature anyway. (Not that I'd *dare* say that to my friend, mind, as she's already upset enough that people opposed the Hugo award...) It's not any mention that concerns me, it's the "forcing it down our throats" that I'm dubious about. What's wrong with wanting to keep the focus on the books on the magic of Hogwarts, friendship and fighting the baddies than on pre-adult fumblings? I would, as I mentioned above, be far more annoyed if JKR >were to try & sell us that these characters who will be adults (UK age >of consent is 17?) 17 may be age of consent, but it's hardly adult. Of course, when I was 17 I thought I was terribly adult and mature, but now... For growth to occur >beliveably IMO, we just can't have 3 characters go through adolescence >without romantic entanglements. Yes, not everyone dates in high school. > But, did you escape high school without any crushes or love interests >or *thinking* about it *at all*? Probably not. Do falling in love with characters from books count? I dated both sexes, but I had no crushes or entanglements with real people at all. I *wanted* to, as our culture tells us it's so vitally important, but there you go... I even thought I had a non-existent libido until I fell in love, which changed everything. My two closest friends didn't even date, and certainly didn't have crushes. And we all thought this was abnormal, in a culture where virginity is mocked as a deficiency, until we discovered there were more who felt like us than we thought, including those who slept around without pleasure. I just want, say, one of the three to reflect this option so other kids don't feel so isolated, in the same way I think representations of queerness are vital. (To balance this out, my Beloved lost her virginity at 14, and was pregnant at 16. By her standards, the HP kids are very very slow to develop...) My mother is of the opinion that American culture has brainwashed children into thinking they *must* fall in love/have crushes, even from a very early age. I'm noy sure I share her blaming US culture alone - Romeo and Juliet weren't exactly geriatric - but I do agree there are immense cultural pressures on children/adolescents to "mature" through serial monagamy, and I'm not real happy about the exerted pressure. Re Narnia: I attribute this at least >in part to the fact that there was a lack of romance/sexuality. It was, >however, hard I think to pin down how old the characters actually were, >so maybe the absence of romance was warranted if they were in fact >intended to be pre-pubescent. I think it's warranted anyway... After all, I adore school stories, and many of the classics have no romantic content, unless you accept that Bill and Clarissa were a couple. :) The Narnia characters were vivid different degrees for me - Diggory, Polly, Jill and Eustace being the best drawn, Peter and Susan the least. I certainly cared for my favourites very much... And I would have found too much romance intrusive, out of place and irritating in that particular series. The kids had other things to worry about. But - as to romance and sexuality missing in the series - did you read "The Horse and His Boy"? There was quite a lot there... (a) R & H becoming a couple for some period of time at >least, (b) Hermione declaring that it's Harry she wants & FITD, (c) >Hermione rejecting Ron on other grounds (Krum for example), Hmm... the only reason you give for Hermione wanting to be just friends is another romantic entanglement... Why is simply not being in love with anyone not an option? I do want to restress that I'm not anti any relationship development in HP, I just really don't want to be beaten over the head with it. And if it's there, I want, in books that are so terribly much a part of children's popular culture at the moment, tehre to be space where *all* children can identify themselves, not just those obsessed with finding an opposite sex boy/girlfriend. XXX Kanna-Ophelia cleffa at start.com.au www.geocities.com/diversiontactics/ ffnet: KannaOphelia __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 02:07:05 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible Flint or Plot device? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011024020705.36413.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28118 My husband just came back from a month long field problem and said that he (and about a quarter of his unit) ended up buying and reading HP and the SS because it was the only thing available (Yeah! He finally read it! I've only been trying to get him to read it for the last 2 years. Of course his excuse was that they ran out of articles in the men's magazines to read and it was that or romance novels.[direct quote from him written under protest from me]) Anyway he asked me a question that I had no answer for (and yes I did check the VFAQ on the lexicon to see if anyone else had said anything about it.) He asked about something that Hagrid said and something that happened during the Sorting Ceremony. In the Scholastic paperback edition pg 69 it says: Hagrid speaking: "No one lived after he decieded ter kill 'em, no one except you, and he killed some o' the best witches an' wizards - the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts - an' you was only a baby, an' you lived." Same book and edition pg 148: The table on the right cheered and clapped as Hannah went to sit down at the Hufflepuff table. Harry saw the ghost of the Fat Friar waving merrily at her. "Bones, Susan!" "HUFFLEPUFF!" shouted the hat again, and Susan scuttled off to sit next to Hannah. His question is was this a Flint or is it a possible plot device? Or was she just reusing the name? Any ideas would be welcomed. Danette --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From conshydot at email.com Wed Oct 24 02:21:23 2001 From: conshydot at email.com (conshydot at email.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 02:21:23 -0000 Subject: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9r12tl+du5l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r58j3+9cao@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28119 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Hallo everybody, > !! > > > FOOD AND DRINK IN THE POTTERVERSE > > I've thought about the food at Hogwarts and decided that It's magic! The ingredient base of the food is the basic food groups, possibly with soy being part of the protein ingested. The magical house elves transform the healthly stuff into looking like "GOOD" stuff. From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 24 02:38:30 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 03:38:30 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible Flint or Plot device? In-Reply-To: <20011024020705.36413.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28120 Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > Hagrid speaking: > "No one lived after he decieded ter kill 'em, no one except you, and he killed > some o' the best witches an' wizards - the McKinnons, the Bones, the Prewetts > - an' you was only a baby, an' you lived." > Same book and edition pg 148: > The table on the right cheered and clapped as Hannah went to sit down at the > Hufflepuff table. Harry saw the ghost of the Fat Friar waving merrily at her. > "Bones, Susan!" > "HUFFLEPUFF!" shouted the hat again, and Susan scuttled off to sit next to > Hannah. > > His question is was this a Flint or is it a possible plot device? Or was she > just reusing the name? Any ideas would be welcomed. > Danette I'm assuming that Susan Bones is in the same boat as Neville -- dead parents, raised by a family member. Alternatively, the "Bones" mentioned by Hagrid could equally be relations to Susan -- Aunt, Uncle, Cousins... Kudos to your sharp-eyed husband, Danette, but I'm a wee bit doubtful we can yell "Flint!", especially with JKR's track record for laying things out books and books in advance. --John ____________________________________________ "The Universe is not only Queerer than we suppose, it is Queerer than we can suppose." - JBS Haldane, 'Possible Worlds' John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 02:56:06 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 02:56:06 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint or Plot device? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r5ak6+erbo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28121 > > I'm assuming that Susan Bones is in the same boat as Neville -- dead > parents, raised by a family member. Alternatively, the "Bones" mentioned by > Hagrid could equally be relations to Susan -- Aunt, Uncle, Cousins... > > Kudos to your sharp-eyed husband, Danette, but I'm a wee bit doubtful we can > yell "Flint!", especially with JKR's track record for laying things out > books and books in advance. > > --John > SPOILER ALERT! S P O I L E R Neville's parents are not dead. They have been driven crazy by Death Eaters and are at St. Mungo's Hospital. This came to light in either Gof or PoA, I forget which. I agree with your point about Susan Bones, though. Haggridd _____________________ From mlacats at aol.com Wed Oct 24 03:01:14 2001 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:01:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin fans and possible death predictions Message-ID: <1e.1d296b19.290788fa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28122 In a message dated 10/17/2001 10:03:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, caliburncy at yahoo.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlacats at a... wrote: > > Hello everyone! > > I'm new to HP FOR GROWNUPS so I'm not sure if this is the proper > > place to make my comment or ask my question, but, here goes anyway! > > I've heard other rumors about Lupin being killed. Is that just > > speculation? I'm crazy about him and would hate to see him die. > > Please tell me it's just a theory. I know being a werewolf isn't > > easy but......... > > > > Harriet > > Welcome, Harriet! > > Yes, it's just a theory. In fact, it is a good rule of thumb to > assume that everything is a rumor until the books come out, even some > things that JKR herself says will happen. Because while JKR does have > all the books plotted out, she has had to make changes before, and > some of the things she confirmed would take place in GOF (the > introduction of a Weasley cousin) did not, as the result of some > editing and re-writing she did. > > But the possibility of Lupin dying is *pure* speculation; JKR has > never said this will occur. JKR has said there are upcoming deaths > and that one of the deaths in Book Five would "half-crucify" her to > write. She has also said that someone who died in Book Five would be > a "special fan of Harry". These may or may not be in reference to the > same person. It is reasonable to assume there will be multiple > casualties in each of the upcoming books, Book Five included. > > She also made one comment that seemed to indicate Lupin would appear > in Book Seven, I believe, so again, though *everything* should be > taken as rumor, he may make it at least to the start of that book, if > not further. > > Discussion of the possibility of Lupin dying is usually based either > on A) people's personal interpretation of the aforementioned and > similar hints from JKR or B) people's opinion on how effective and > emotionally moving his death would be. > > And no, we're not that morbidly detached about death as that makes us > sound, in case you were wondering . . . at least not all of us. > > Oh wait, there is also less frequently basis C) which is that some > people believe that the eventual purpose of Wormtail's silver hand is > to kill Lupin, based on the general mythology of werewolves being > vulnerable to silver. It should be noted that JKR picks and chooses > which parts of general mythology to adopt into her own universe, > though, and we thus far have no canon evidence that her version of > werewolves have this same vulnerability. > > Anyway, only JKR knows and even she changes her mind. . . > > -Luke > > Thanks, I feel better now. I've heard the rumor about Wormtail's silver hand, but then I started thinking, "Doesn't it have to be a silver bullet?" I don't know. Anyway, JKR has said herself that the rumors are off base anyway. Harriet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joym999 at aol.com Wed Oct 24 03:19:36 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 03:19:36 -0000 Subject: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9r12tl+du5l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r5c08+60vf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28123 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > QUESTION 1: Why do neither teachers nor students ever eat: Rice, > pasta, fish, salad, fresh fruit (with the exception of strawberries)? Well, we know that Hogwarts and the wizarding world is a little old- fashioned, in that they don't seem to be up on all the hip muggle fashions. Healthy eating is definitely a new-fangled trend. When I was young (ok, that was a while ago, but not THAT long ago) I don't remember people eating much in the way of fresh fruit and vegetables. There were relatively few places to buy fresh produce, compared with how many there are now. And I don't think my grandparents ever ate fresh fruit and vegetables -- everything my grandma cooked was some sort of heavy, meaty thing that sat in a pot on the stove for hours and hours. I know some people who still eat that way. So Hogwarts-style eating may not be all that healthy, but it sound probable to me. It's a lot better than living on junk food and McDonalds, the way millions of people do. > QUESTION 2: What do you think of the attitude towards the "popular > drugs" coffee, nicotine and alcohol JKR confers to us by means of her > books (cigarettes are never mentioned, alcohol mostly has unpleasant > consequences and nobody ever drinks coffee in the wizarding world)? A > clear message for Muggles like us or a sign that wizards are simply > different and don't need certain things? I'm really glad no one smokes cigarettes in the HP books. I think JKR probably made a conscious decision to keep those nasty cancer sticks out of her universe. As for alcohol, it seems to me there is plenty of it. There are a number of scenes where adults are drinking alcohol, and even the students are allowed to drink butterbeer. The only unpleasant consequences are for Hagrid, who indulges a little too heavily sometimes, but I actually think JKR depicts a fair amount of social drinking for books that are told from the point of view of a teenager. > QUESTION 4: Where do you think the Fat Lady got her chocolate liquors > from? I think it's very obvious that Dean Thomas, who we know is good at art, drew a picture of a box of chocolate liquors, framed it, and tacked it up on the wall outside the Gryffindor Common Room. Each Gryffindor threw in a couple of knuts for supplies; it was the students' Christmas present to the Fat Lady. Once the picture was hung on the wall, the Fat Lady could just wander over to the next frame and grab them. --Joywitch From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 24 03:31:45 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:31:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possible Flint or Plot device? In-Reply-To: <9r5ak6+erbo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28124 L O T S O F L O V E L Y FICTIONALLEY-SPONSORED S P O I L E R S P A C E Haggridd wrote: > Neville's parents are not dead. They have been driven crazy by Death > Eaters and are at St. Mungo's Hospital. This came to light in either > Gof or PoA, I forget which. I agree with your point about Susan > Bones, though. I know. Shh...don't tell your husband that, Danette :D --John ____________________________________________ "To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." --Albus Dumbledore John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From mlacats at aol.com Wed Oct 24 03:41:54 2001 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:41:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The old crowd Message-ID: <50.93d7be.29079282@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28125 In a message dated 10/19/2001 1:30:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com writes: > Just a little query about what our dear Dumbledore says at the end of > GOF. He says, "Now i have work for each of you. Fudge's attitude, > though not unexpected, changes everything. Sirius, I need you to set > off at once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mudungus > Fletcher --- the old crowd. Lie low at Lupin's for a while; I will > contact you there." I know that Lupin is cool and all but i am a bit > concerned that we just dont know enough about these other characters > to assume that they will not say something along the lines of OH MY > GOD!!! IT'S SIRIUS BLACK!!! STUPIFY!!! and then immediately call the > ministry. We know of Mudungus Fletcher from the Quiddich Cup but i > dont believe that arabella figg was mentioned prior to her summons > from dumbledore. (I have a pretty good feeling that they were all of > the same year/house as each other at 'ogwarts, but can we really > trust that comradery after haveing graduated so long ago??) > > Just wondering > > Scott > > > > hi Scott, In reference to the "old crowd", I believe that Arabella Figg is the same as the Mrs. Figg who baby sat Harry when he was little, when the Dursleys wanted to go out. In that case, she'd be old (I think that's how JKR discribes her in Book 1!?). Sirius and Lupin are the same age - around 36 - as is Snape and James would have been,if he were still alive!). Enough on that....I think your thought on how the "old crowd" should be allerted, if Molly Weasley's reaction at seeing Sirius in the hospital wing is any indication. Harriet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mlacats at aol.com Wed Oct 24 03:46:20 2001 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:46:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about Book Four Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28126 In a message dated 10/19/2001 3:46:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, r_vonbickel at yahoo.com writes: > > Hello-- > > I was wondering if someone could explain something that doesn' make any > sense > to me. In the beginning of Book Four it says that all three Riddles are > found dead, > including the teenage son, Tom, i.e. Voldemort. I still can't fingure out > how this > can be the case. Did he stage his own death? Where is this ever explained? > > Thanks-- > > A fan > Hi fan, I don't believe it says anywhere in Book 4 that the teenage Voldy died. He was spotted by the old caretaker, but no one else saw him, so doubted that he existed. The three Riddles that were killed were Tom (Voldy's dad) and Tom's parents, Voldy's grandparents. (Voldy's real name is Tom Riddle, like his father). Harriet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From deeblite at home.com Wed Oct 24 03:48:37 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:48:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA printing Error Book In-Reply-To: <9r4ba6+jm3v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011023234822.015c6410@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28127 At 06:01 PM 10/23/01 +0000, you wrote: >I have a copy of PoA That is Printed upside down. >When [Year 3] is at the top, Harry Potter and the PoA is read from >top to bottom, if the book is opened, you are at the last page, >upside down. You havev to flip it over to read. >Does anyone else have a PoA like this. >Does Anyone Want it? >Alex Umm.. are you sure the dust jacket isnt just upside down or something? -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 24 03:52:33 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:52:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shippers and Non-Shippers References: Message-ID: <3BD63B01.2020308@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28128 Hi -- Kanna Ophelia wrote: > > It's not any mention that concerns me, it's the "forcing it down our > throats" that I'm dubious about. What's wrong with wanting to keep > the focus on the books on the magic of Hogwarts, friendship and > fighting the baddies than on pre-adult fumblings? I'm not sure where the "forcing it down our throats" notion comes from. Is it that people believe JKR was heavy-handed with the romance subplot in GoF (Ron's developing crush on Hermione)? I trust that she'll handle that aspect of the books with her usual finesse and I doubt that anything will seem forced. I've never said that I expect or even want the *focus* to be romance-related. I just think it will be there in some measure, and I welcome this. It would seem unrealistic for it to be otherwise. I also think it's plausible that the romance angle could be more than just a diversion ... there are realistic scenarios that tie it into the main plotline. The position of some of the more militant no-shippers seems to be that the romance has no place at all in these books, and it's a point I don't get since JKR clearly thinks otherwise so far. > I said: > I would, as I mentioned above, be far more annoyed if JKR > >were to try & sell us that these characters who will be adults (UK > age>of consent is 17?) > > Kanna-Ophelia said: 17 may be age of consent, but it's hardly adult. Of course, when I > was 17 I thought I was terribly adult and mature, but now... Well, sure 17 isn't nearly as adult as 25, but 17 is alot more adult & less child than 12. I would think most people would surely concede that the characters won't be *children* at the conclusion of the series (neither chronologically nor emotionally since they will have just gone through a war). I may be in the minority, but I think they'll qualify as adults at the end of the series. > > (a) R & H becoming a couple for some period of time at > >least, (b) Hermione declaring that it's Harry she wants & FITD, (c) > >Hermione rejecting Ron on other grounds (Krum for example), > > Hmm... the only reason you give for Hermione wanting to be just > friends is another romantic entanglement... Why is simply not being in > love with anyone not an option? I said "Krum for example" meaning that this was but one of the grounds on which Hermione might reject Ron. Yes, I agree -- not being in love with anyone is very much an option. :--) > > I do want to restress that I'm not anti any relationship development > in HP, I just really don't want to be beaten over the head with it. > And if it's there, I want, in books that are so terribly much a part > of children's popular culture at the moment, tehre to be space where > *all* children can identify themselves, not just those obsessed with > finding an opposite sex boy/girlfriend. I couldn't agree more with that. Penny (post-canon or canon H/H, anti-OBHWF, Draco-can-be-redeemed, Snape-might-be-a-vampire, pro-1980, small-Hogwarts, HP-are-not-just-childrens-books, avid member of P.I.N.E. & S.C.H.A.B.B. who wouldn't join C.R.A.B. for any amount of money) Looks like our only overlap, Cindy, is with P.I.N.E. From cleffa at start.com.au Wed Oct 24 03:27:00 2001 From: cleffa at start.com.au (Kanna Ophelia) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:57:00 +0930 Subject: Butterbeer, was Re: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28129 Original message from: "Joywitch M. Curmudgeon" As for alcohol, it seems to me there is >plenty of it. There are a number of scenes where adults are drinking >alcohol, and even the students are allowed to drink butterbeer Fiorgive me if this has already been hashed out, but I always assumed butterbeer was just a more exotic and delicious variety of gingerbeer, perhaps a reference to Diana Wynne Jones' butter pies. Is there any reason to assume it's alcoholic, especially as Harry is given it by a well-disposed teacher? Traditionally brewed gingerbeer is certainly warming (and cooling at the same time, ahh...) without any alcoholic content. I guess I just like Remus too much to be comfortable with the idea of him giving booze to a child... XXX Kanna-Ophelia cleffa at start.com.au www.geocities.com/diversiontactics/ ffnet: KannaOphelia __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au From mlacats at aol.com Wed Oct 24 03:58:44 2001 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:58:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movi... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28130 In a message dated 10/22/2001 7:08:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maxwell Simpson wrote: > > According to www.the-leaky-cauldron.com Book Three's script is > already in the works, and there are theories that Book Four may be > divided into two seperate movies, due to its extreme length. Which, I > must admit, would be intriguing. > > > > But how would two movies work? Could it be a good old fashioned > double feature? Or what? What then? Would the two movies be released > at the same time, and people could either watch seperately, or > simultaneously? > > > > Wow. I'd like to shake the hand of any script writer who could > figure out how to make two good movies out of Book 4. If you split > Book 4 directly in half, you come out right after "The First Task" > and before "House Elf Liberation Front." So the second half would > have the big plot twists, and the first half would have things > like "Bagman & Crouch." You'd have to figure out a way to do it that > doesn't divide up the Triwizard Competition, I guess. > > Personally, I'd much prefer to see one solid three-hour movie that > cuts down a lot of the background stuff in the beginning of the > book. I know this is controversial, but I'd eliminate the QWC > entirely, just for starters. > > Cindy > > Oh, but Cindy, what about the conjuring of the Dark Mark, which takes place after the QWC is over, not to mention the fact that the cup is exciting,what with the Veela and the lepracauns, Krum flying around, etc. Harriet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caliburncy at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 04:25:56 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:25:56 -0000 Subject: Possible Flint or Plot device? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r5fsk+u7kc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28131 I return from a brief stint of main list silence to bring you this special L.O.O.N. announcement: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > I'm assuming that Susan Bones is in the same boat as Neville -- dead > parents, raised by a family member. Alternatively, the "Bones" > mentioned by Hagrid could equally be relations to Susan -- Aunt, > Uncle, Cousins... JKR has stated in an interview that the Bones family referred to as being killed by Voldy and/or the DEs are the grandparents of Susan Bones. I don't remember which interview, and am too tired to seek it out at the moment, but it can be found in the collection of interviews at the Harry Potter Galleries. I think it's one of the AOL or B&N interviews, but I could be wrong. Therefore, Danette, you can tell your husband that he is sharp-eyed, but that this is not a flint, because nowhere in Hagrid's comment did he say that the entire family (i.e. lineage) was wiped out. Her grandparents were killed presumably after her father was grown. And Susan, we can assume, was therefore raised by her parents as is usual. It is a matter of consistency, not inconsistency. Whether or not it actually becomes a plot point is another question entirely, and probably dependent upon whether or not Susan Bones becomes a more prominent character. I personally find this unlikely, and suspect the connection is just another example of how the author needs to know more about the world than the readers do, but you never know. Anyway, I am feeling tired and will now retire to bed. Perhaps I will terrorize you all with an inane, rambling post of theoretically more substance tomorrow. For the moment, all I have the energy to do is make this little point of order. -Luke From degroote at altavista.com Wed Oct 24 05:03:10 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 23 Oct 2001 22:03:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Floo powder at Hogwarts Message-ID: <20011024050310.6389.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28132 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From degroote at altavista.com Wed Oct 24 05:58:26 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 23 Oct 2001 22:58:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Food&Drink Message-ID: <20011024055826.18861.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28133 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 06:02:45 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:02:45 -0000 Subject: school years = how old is hermione?? In-Reply-To: <9r4hjq+u5ab@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r5li5+a6ol@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28134 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Barb" wrote: > On a marginally-related topic, there is now a required minimum age > for entry to U.S. colleges/universities (unfortunately I cannot > remember whether it is 10 or 12 years of age) because of there > being younger students (child prodigies) who were being admitted > who were not emotionally ready for the academic rigor. I'm afraid this is not the case. There is no binding authority to compel all the U.S. universities and colleges to set a minimum age. Here's a student who began Randolph-Macon University at age 10: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/whizkid000620.html And here's a 9 yr. old at Loyola University - Chicago: http://www.luc.edu/news/releases/news/sho3.html Although my parents and I chose to decline the opportunity, I myself was offered to start at Johns Hopkins University in conjunction with the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth as a 13 yr. old back in 1982 when this sort of acceleration was far less common.... ....Craig From joym999 at aol.com Wed Oct 24 06:30:30 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:30:30 -0000 Subject: Butterbeer, was Re: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r5n66+i093@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28135 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kanna Ophelia wrote: > Original message from: "Joywitch M. Curmudgeon" > > As for alcohol, it seems to me there is > >plenty of it. There are a number of scenes where adults are drinking > >alcohol, and even the students are allowed to drink butterbeer > > Fiorgive me if this has already been hashed out, but I always assumed > butterbeer was just a more exotic and delicious variety of gingerbeer, > perhaps a reference to Diana Wynne Jones' butter pies. Is there any > reason to assume it's alcoholic, especially as Harry is given it by a > well-disposed teacher? Well, it's alcoholic enough for house-elves to become drunks if they imbibe too much. From GoF, chapter 28: Winky was sitting on the same stool as last time, but she had allowed herself to become so filthy that she was not immediately distinguishable from the smoke-blackened brick behind her. Her clothes were ragged and unwashed. She was clutching a bottle of butterbeer and swaying slightly on her stool, staring into the fire. As they watched her, she gave an enormous hiccup. "Winky is getting through six bottles a day now," Dobby whispered to Harry. "Well, it's not strong, that stuff," Harry said. But Dobby shook his head. " 'Tis strong for a house-elf, sir," he said. --Joywitch From catlady at wicca.net Wed Oct 24 07:17:37 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:17:37 -0000 Subject: Weasley Ages - Susan Bones - Butterbeer Message-ID: <9r5puh+qt3c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28136 Aurora wrote: > Hi I am new so this may have been covered before, but it wasn't in > the FAQ. At the end of Chamber of Secerets, Ginny is upset because > she thinks she will be expelled from Hogwarts and says she's been > Swanting to go ever since Bill started. I agree that's an error. The best I can figure is that it is a TYPO (like 'unless we do not all work together') and Ginny really said 'since PERCY went'. Cindy wrote: > In looking up the dates on the Lexicon, I noticed that there is an > 8-year age difference between Percy and Charlie, with all other > known age differences in the Weasley family at 1-2 years (except > for Bill, for whom we don't have a birth year yet). So what > happened in that 8-year span that caused Molly and Arthur take a > break from having children? Or did they have other children in > that period (during Voldemort's first reign, BTW) who did not > survive? If that question isn't in the 'Mysteries' FAQ, it should be. People have proposed innumerable theories: that there were children who were killed, and Arthur's mention and what it's like to come home and see the Dark Mark over your house is from personal experience, that Arthur and/or Molly spent some years held prisoner in Azkaban or by the Dark Side, therefore not available for making babies, that they originally intended to have only two children but then something changed their minds. Luke wrote: > JKR has stated in an interview that the Bones family referred to as > being killed by Voldy and/or the DEs are the grandparents of Susan > Bones. I don't remember which interview, and am too tired to seek > it out at the moment, but it can be found in the collection of > interviews at the Harry Potter Galleries. I think it's one of the > AOL or B&N interviews, but I could be wrong. The interview is at http://www.hpgalleries.com/c103.htm I found it by using the wonderful search tool that Mike the Goat provided: http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ Susanna/pigwidgeon37's Food Summary included: > Butterbeer seems to be very slightly alcoholic (at least enough to > knock out a House Elf), but is allowed to the students on their > Hogsmeade weekends. Maybe butterbeer is not alcoholic at all and what knocks out the House Elves is some other ingredient that has little or no effect on humans. Even among humans, some people have abnormal responses to some substances, such as a woman I used to know who got tipsy from root beer. She said it was some kind of allergy but she liked it because it made her a very cheap drunk. I also knew a woman who swore that drinking one tablespoon of black coffee would put her to sleep in short minutes and that her mother and her mother's mother had the same characteristic. Do we know anything about what House Elves eat normally, or whether they have to taste what they're cooking? It could simply be the refined sugar in butterbeer that is intoxicating to them! > QUESTION 2: What do you think of the attitude towards the "popular > drugs" coffee, nicotine and alcohol JKR confers to us by means of > her books (cigarettes are never mentioned, alcohol mostly has > unpleasant consequences and nobody ever drinks coffee in the > wizarding world)? A clear message for Muggles like us or a sign > that wizards are simply different and don't need certain things? Just that they're old-fashioned and smoke pipes rather than cigarettes, drink tea rather than coffee (and tea does contain caffeine). On Harry's first visit to the Leaky Cauldron: "For a famous place, it was very dark and shabby. A few old women were sitting in a corner, drinking tiny glasses of sherry. One of them was smoking a long pipe." From trs80 at tartarus.uwa.edu.au Wed Oct 24 09:40:05 2001 From: trs80 at tartarus.uwa.edu.au (James Andrewartha) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:40:05 +0800 (WST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Acronyms and HPfGU code In-Reply-To: <9r55oq+nu9s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28137 On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Cindy C. wrote: > > --Ebony AKA AngieJ (a post-canon H/H, anti-OBHWF, Draco-can-be- > > redeemed, Snape-is-a-vampire, pro-1980, Small Hogwartian who will > > never in a million years qualify for L.O.O.N....) > > For me, the membership acronyms are stacking up like planes over > LaGuardia. > > Cindy (pending membership to S.A.D.[Society of Apologists for the > Director], Draco-will-never-be redeemed; HP-is-mostly-a-children's- > book; Snape-is-not-a-vampire; Bagman-is-definitely-a-DE; Neville-has- > a-reverse-memory-charm; Hermione-is-1979-or-1980-or-thereabouts; Big > Hogwartian; Canonite; Anti-Shipper; S.S.H.I.A.B.B. [Stop Saying > Hermione Is A Bossy Braggart]; C.R.A.B. [Cut Ron A Break]; and > whatever we decided for the Lupin group.) > > And (just for Penny) Percy. Is. Not. Evil. On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Penny wrote: > Penny (post-canon or canon H/H, anti-OBHWF, Draco-can-be-redeemed, > Snape-might-be-a-vampire, pro-1980, small-Hogwarts, > HP-are-not-just-childrens-books, avid member of P.I.N.E. & S.C.H.A.B.B. > who wouldn't join C.R.A.B. for any amount of money) > > Looks like our only overlap, Cindy, is with P.I.N.E. ISAGN for a HPFGU code (along the lines of the geek code). Then everyone can state their position concisely, plus it allows for strength of conviction. For example, say S stands for Ship, then someone who really wants a HH ship could have S+++HH, whereas someone who is a non-shipper could have S---. Another one (based on a question in the obsession quiz), could be $, for how much money you've blown on HP stuff. Since I'm the one who suggested it, I suspect I'll be lumbered with getting it up and going. Anyway, I'm new to this group, so I don't know half of the acronyms (and I have read the shorthand guide, they're not in there) ... could people please reply back with all the membership acronyms they know, and their expansion (and what they mean would probably help to). [note to list admins - should this be moved to OT-Chatter?] James Andrewartha From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Oct 24 09:51:40 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:51:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: food and drink + sport + Hagrid In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011023211158.00a151c0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <20011024095140.81679.qmail@web14708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28138 OT alert, OT alert! Yes, that's it and I LOVE it (even if at last they kill him with the famous 16 tons weight) Susanna/pigwidgeon37 Martin Hooper wrote: At 13:20 23/10/01, you wrote: >Now this is NOT meant to be patronizing,but I don't know whether you >belong to the (my) generation of Monty Python warshippers. They did that >hilarious "fresh fruit"- Royal Army sketch- try to get it, if you can, the >colonel's "fruitophobia" might equal yours. Susanna is that the sketch where the other Pythons are trying to kill John Cleese with things like bananas and other types of fruit is it...? Martin Hooper AIM:martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Nokia Game is on again. Click here to join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Wed Oct 24 14:27:22 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:27:22 -0400 Subject: No-ship but romance okay (short); Butterbeer (long) Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05559@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 28139 Hey, everyone! Many thoughts on these issues to contribute this morning. First up: the seeming incompatability of no-shipping fans and romance in HP. Penny wrote: > The position of some of the more militant no-shippers seems to be that the romance > has no place at all in these books, and it's a point I don't get since JKR clearly > thinks otherwise so far. > I agree with Penny, here, in that JKR clearly wants to add some romantic interest, if only as a source of humour. I also agree that there seem to be a school of no-shippers who protest any hint of a romantic subplot, and this confuses me. I don't quite understand why fellow crewers on the HMS Switzerland seem to object to romance in the books altogether. My personal position on no-shipping is not that I don't think romance belongs in the books; in fact, I quite find it amusing. I think the romantic elements of GoF are put there for comic relief, and I find Ron and Hermione's antics both recognizable in their ages and frankly identifiably in character. But I am not personally invested in one romantic choice over another: I simply don't care who Harry, Ron, or Hermione wind up with. I patently refuse to believe that the choices they make in the next book or two will decide their fates forever. True, the impending war and the tense atmosphere may tend to make them feel more intently their desires to be "with" someone, or on the other hand, it may drive all thoughts of romance out of their heads. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. Just tell me a story, Auntie Jo! On Butterbeer: > Kanna Ophelia wrote: > > Fiorgive me if this has already been hashed out, but I always assumed > butterbeer was just a more exotic and delicious variety of gingerbeer, > perhaps a reference to Diana Wynne Jones' butter pies. Is there any > reason to assume it's alcoholic, especially as Harry is given it by a > well-disposed teacher? Traditionally brewed gingerbeer is certainly > warming (and cooling at the same time, ahh...) without any alcoholic > content. > Actually, a while ago someone came up with a real Renaissance recipe for buttered beer...hang on, though, I think it wasn't on an HP list, but an SCA one. Here's a reprint of the recipe: > > To make Buttered Beere. > > Take three pintes of Beere, put five yolkes of Egges to it, straine them > > together, and set it in a pewter pot to the fyre, and put to it halfe a > > pound of Sugar, one penniworth of Nutmegs beaten, one penniworth of Cloves > > beaten, and a halfepenniworth of Ginger beaten, and when it is all in, take > > another pewter pot and brewe them together, and set it to the fire againe, > > and when it is readie to boyle, take it from the fire, and put a dish of > > sweet butter into it, and brewe them together out of one pot into an other. Source: Good Huswifes Handmaide for the Kitchen (undated, apparently early 1600s), ed. by Stuart Peachey, Stuart Press, 1992. And for folks' information, birch beer and root beer, if made strong enough, are also *very slightly* alcoholic. Someone with great sensitivity to alcohol can get a buzz from homemade root beer. I always assumed butter beer had some small alcoholic content. KannaOphelia continued: > I guess I just like Remus too much to be comfortable with the idea of > him giving booze to a child... > Hm. I have a few things to say about this comment. Forgive me if the explanations wander a bit off topic. First of all, the alcoholic content in butterbeer is probably not so great as to inebriate someone of Harry's age and mass in one bottle. Harry says so himself in GoF. So it's not like Remus is handing the kid a bottle of bourbon. Second, the European concept of kids and alcohol is nowhere near as rigidly taboo as elsewhere. Speaking as an American, where alcohol is strictly forbidden to under 21's, I know of many American homes in which parents do not object to their kids trying alcohol under supervision--a taste of Dad's wine at the dinner table, for example. I believe (no statistics at the moment to back me up, but...) that kids who grow up being able to try alcoholic beverages are less likely to drink excessive amounts when left to their own devices. Rowling's experience with a more relaxed attitude to alcohol may be showing through here. Third, and I think most importantly, the concept that kids should not drink any alcohol is a rather modern concept. Up until about the turn of the century, water was not considered good to drink and milk was only for very small children. My great-grandmother used to swear that the secret to getting a fractious infant to sleep was to mix a small amount of brandy with his milk. Before the mechanization of industry, child labour laws, and all that fun modern stuff, "small beer" was an acceptable beverage for kids as young as 8 or 9. Okay, because I know you're going to ask...I took this from an essay on brewing written by an acquaintance of mine, Doug Brainard (available at http://hbd.org/brewery/library/PeriodRen.html): "Small ale was a term used for a very weak ale. Typically, after most of the sugar had been dissolved out of a quantity of malt, a second batch of ale was made using the used malt. Naturally the sugar available for the second, "small" ale was substantially less than that of the original batch. A reasonable estimate would be 2-3% alcohol. This ale was usually drunk fresh." In the period Doug's talking about, (mid-1600's), the difference between "beer" and "ale" is that beer had hops; ales did not. Sugar, in case you didn't know, is what makes the liquid ferment and creates alcohol content. Small beers and small ales were fresh (not aged) and "for daily family use," according to Fred Hardy's essay on Medieval English Brewing (available at http://hbd.org/brewery/library/MedievalFH.html). Others have commented extensively elsewhere that the wizarding world is more medieval, if you will, than the Muggle world. Given their attitudes, their superstitions, their education and apparent occupational systems, it's reasonable to conclude that they also have a less modern attitude toward alcohol. And there's no statute against selling it to kids, either: Ron buys butterbeers in the 3 Broomsticks in PoA. So, Kanna, I'm sorry, but I think you're superimposing your own attitudes about alcohol onto the situation, if you think less of Remus for giving Harry a slightly alcoholic drink. BTW, regarding the attitude of wizards about alcohol in general, there are several instances where Dumbledore drinks, talks about drinking, and/or encourages other adults to join him in drinking. Karkaroff also offers Krum wine, though he denies it to another student, but IMO, he did that out of a display of preferential treatment more than moral conviction. Gwen From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 24 14:31:31 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:31:31 -0000 Subject: school years = how old is hermione?? In-Reply-To: <20011022235810.96736.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9r6jc3+h67o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28140 I'd just like to say as someone still in the British Schooling system that the academic year begins September 1st and ends August 31st. So Going with the magic quill theory IMHO then anyone who was turning eleven between September 1st 1990 and August 31st 1991 (have I got the year right?) would have recieved an owl from Hogwarts and would have started in the same September as Harry. So some children in his year would already be 11 when they recieved the letter like Hermione and Ron and others would have been ten like Harry. In year 7 or 1st year in the British system, everyone has there 12th birthday. Hermione will have turned 12 during her first month at Hogwarts while Harry didn't turn 12 until after the school year ended. About the people being a year younger then others in there year. In my experience it was common in Primary school (4-11) for people whose birthdays fell between September and December to be moved up a year if there on clas was particularly large. But I've never come across it in Secondary (11-18). However there are several people in my own academic year (year 13 or 7th year)who are actually a year older than all of us (turning 19 as opposed to 18 this academic year) and that is because at some point during secondary school they have been held back a year. Just my two sickles, Sofie From nethilia at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 14:35:16 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Tasha--Nethilia) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <1003800320.2027.49737.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20011024143516.45075.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28141 > QUESTION 1: Why do neither teachers nor students > ever eat: Rice, > pasta, fish, salad, fresh fruit (with the exception > of strawberries)? > They live on a diet of the most heavy and unhealthy > food imaginable- > just think what teaching or being taught three hours > in the afternoon > with your stomach full of Steak and Kidney pie and > Trifle must be > like! I think, like others have said, that Harry just doesn't see it. After all Padma and Parvati may be Hindu and don't eat beef, a Muslim Wizard or witch might not eat pork. Harry gets what he wants to eat (which isn't all too healthy, but I'll let him slide cause of the Dursleys). I suspect that whatever a student wants, a Student gets--even salads and fruit. > QUESTION 2: What do you think of the attitude > towards the "popular > drugs" coffee, nicotine and alcohol JKR confers to > us by means of her > books (cigarettes are never mentioned, alcohol > mostly has unpleasant > consequences and nobody ever drinks coffee in the > wizarding world)? A > clear message for Muggles like us or a sign that > wizards are simply > different and don't need certain things? I think we just don't see who drinks what. There might be wizards who smoke, or non-nicotine tobacco, or what have yah. Same with liquor--mebbe it only works on Hagrid cause he's half giant. Meh. > QUESTION 3: What do you think about magical vs. > elves' cooking? (Wand > vs. elves' magic) I think the elves might do it by hand. > Buckbeak, the Hippogriff, seems to be quite happy > when served > sufficient quantities of dead ferrets (CONSTANT > VIGILANCE, Draco!!) XD!! LOL! > QUESTION 4: Where do you think the Fat Lady got her > chocolate liquors > from? Did they have to be in another painting and > she nicked them, or > is there a possibility of getting objects like food, > but also others > into a painting without actually painting them > there? I have no clue. > QUESTION 5: Vernon and Dudley Dursley are fat. Aunt > Petunia is > skinny, in spite of sharing the same meals. So far, > we haven't heard > of fat wizards, albeit their food is, to say the > least, hypercaloric. > Might this be an indication that Petunia is the one > with yet > unrecognized magical powers? You know, I never thought of that! You might have a point. > QUESTION 6: Do you think there might be a > constitutional difference > between wizards and Muggles? Do wizards have a > better metabolism that > prevents them from becoming obese? Don't they need > vitamins? Mebbe Wizarding metabolism works depending on what you eat--which is why Harry made it 10 years without being fed properly. If you eat a lot, your body takes it in faster and vice versa. --Neth ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- 79% obsessed with Harry Potter Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 24 14:48:20 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:48:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age (again); Shipping; GOF Movie (x2) In-Reply-To: <9r4ut3+il0g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r6kbk+goq1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28142 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony" wrote: Out of curiosity if Hermione was born in 1980 (which I don't think she was) would this mean that really she should be in Ginny's year? And by the way do we have any idea of when Ginny's birthday is because she has to be at least 9 months younger than Ron? So that means she must have been born between January and August 1981. Am I right that ron's birthday is in April? Sofie (a H/H, D/H, R/H, H/G D/G shipper because teenagers go out with a lot of people (but Hermione and Harry will end up together!), Draco- will-be-redeemed (or I will cry), pro-1979, Snape-is-not-a-vampire, small Hogwarts amd what does OBHWF stand for?) From shanerichmond at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:01:59 2001 From: shanerichmond at hotmail.com (shanerichmond at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:01:59 -0000 Subject: school years + ships + GoF movie In-Reply-To: <9r6jc3+h67o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r6l57+7ueb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28143 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > Hermione will have turned 12 during her first month at > Hogwarts while Harry didn't turn 12 until after the school year > ended. About the people being a year younger then others in there > year. Hi all, I'm relatively new to the group so I guess I missed the start of this thread but I'm puzzled as to why Hermione's age is such an issue. I'm not aware of any serious canon evidence suggesting that she is younger so why is there such string disagreement? Anyway, just to add my experiences to Sofie's comments above. I turned 11 on June 30 1985 and started secondary school in September 85. My best friend throughout school had his birthday on September 4, meaning that he was twelve just days after starting secondary school while I had to wait another ten months, turning 12 just two weeks before term finished. Purely from my experience, I would say this is the most plausible answer to the mystery. > Penny and Bryce said: > I would, as I mentioned above, be far more annoyed if JKR > >were to try & sell us that these characters who will be adults (UK > age>of consent is 17?) I'm not sure if anyone has cleared this up, so apologies if I'm repeating stuff but ages of consent in the UK are as follows... 16: Can consent to heterosexual sex 17: Can drive a car 18: Can consent to homosexual sex / Can drink alcohol / Can smoke tobacco / Can gamble > Kanna Ophelia wrote: > It's not any mention that concerns me, it's the "forcing it down our > throats" that I'm dubious about. What's wrong with wanting to keep > the focus on the books on the magic of Hogwarts, friendship and > fighting the baddies than on pre-adult fumblings? I tend to want to see the books focus on these things too but the two core themes of the book are IMHO: Harry's journey of discovery of his parents/past and Harry moving from a child in the Muggle world to being an adult in the wizard world. Few, if any, of us make the journey to adulthood without developing an awareness of our sexuality and I think it would be more unrealistic to leave this out. That said, I'm not personally bothered by which characters get paired off - I feel that it can simply be used as a good plot device to aid character development. > Maxwell Simpson wrote: > But how would two movies work? Could it be a good old fashioned > double feature? Or what? What then? Would the two movies be released > at the same time, and people could either watch seperately, or > simultaneously? I'll lend my voice to those saying that cutting the book into 2 halves wouldn't work. Almost everything in the first half is there to set up something for the second so you couldn't help but have a first half that would feel directionless and dull. The only way to chop it into two would be to drastically re-write the story so that both halves have viable beginnings, middles and ends. I for one wouldn't be in favour of them doing that. One suggestion I have seen elsewhere is to take The Riddle House and put it on the end of the PoA movie, which would make a great cliffhanger. I'd then start the GoF movie with Harry and the Weasleys scouring the hill for the portkey. One or two subplots would have to be chopped but only JKR would know which ones. After all who would have thought that the snake would be so important to book one? Or the Whomping Willow would return after book two? Or that Cedric beating Harry in book three would be significant? Right, back to work for me! Shane, who is really really really excited about his tickets to see the movie on November 10. From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 24 15:05:35 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:05:35 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers In-Reply-To: <9r517l+pr2f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r6lbv+7ij7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28144 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > So then, the question: Does most people on the list look forward > to more ships? If so, why would Ships enhance the books for you? >Do the Shippers greatly outnumber the non-Shippers? I must say that I have found it a bit weird that barely of the adults seem to be married or partnered in anyway. Sirius I can understand being that he was locked up rom being 21 though he strikes me as a bit of a ladies man. The same goes for Remus as well, I imagine that it is very dificult to find someone when you are a werewolf. But what about any of the teachers? It does seem very strange that none of them appear to be married. As for the younger characters. It did seem to make sense that no relationships had really be very serious until now because how many 11,12,13 and 14 year olds have proper relationships? But now they are 14/15 it would strike me as odd if they didn't start having romantic pairings. I would be a little disappointed if nothing came of the Ron/Hermione flirtation or if Ginny didn't at least get one date with Harry. And I still think Hermione will be the one to redeem Draco (although I'm a H/H girl at heart)! Afterall if Percy can get a girlfriend how on eart will Harry not get one? Sofie (who being a teenager herself, knows full well how frustrating teenage dating is!) From dkgrubb at earthlink.net Wed Oct 24 15:08:35 2001 From: dkgrubb at earthlink.net (dkgrubb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:35 -0000 Subject: Butterbeer In-Reply-To: <9r5n66+i093@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r6lhj+rg3h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28145 Kanna Ophelia wrote: > > Fiorgive me if this has already been hashed out, but I always > assumed > > butterbeer was just a more exotic and delicious variety of > gingerbeer, > > perhaps a reference to Diana Wynne Jones' butter pies. Is there any > > reason to assume it's alcoholic, especially as Harry is given it by > a > > well-disposed teacher? Joywitch wrote: > Well, it's alcoholic enough for house-elves to become drunks if they > imbibe too much. It seems likely that butterbeer is sort of like the oldfashioned "near beer", the almost nonalcoholic beer we can buy in the US labeled nonalcoholic, but which is usually something like 0.5% alcohol. Debra From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 24 15:17:49 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:17:49 -0000 Subject: school years + ships + GoF movie In-Reply-To: <9r6l57+7ueb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r6m2t+f5gr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28146 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., shanerichmond at h... wrote: > > I'm relatively new to the group so I guess I missed the start of this > thread but I'm puzzled as to why Hermione's age is such an issue. I'm > not aware of any serious canon evidence suggesting that she is > younger so why is there such string disagreement? I'm not that new to the group and this confuses me greatly as well, this is the third time that can remember that it's come up! > Anyway, just to add my experiences to Sofie's comments above. I > turned 11 on June 30 1985 and started secondary school in September > 85. My best friend throughout school had his birthday on September >4, meaning that he was twelve just days after starting secondary >school while I had to wait another ten months, turning 12 just two >weeks before term finished. Purely from my experience, I would say >this is the most plausible answer to the mystery. Finally someone who agrees with me, woohoo! > 16: Can consent to heterosexual sex > 17: Can drive a car > 18: Can consent to homosexual sex / Can drink alcohol / Can smoke > tobacco / Can gamble > Actually you can smoke from 16 as well as get married with your parents permission. At 18 you can also vote. > > Shane, who is really really really excited about his tickets to see > the movie on November 10. How have you got tickets for November 10th? I thought it didn't come to England until november 16th? Sofie From shanerichmond at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:34:13 2001 From: shanerichmond at hotmail.com (shanerichmond at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:34:13 -0000 Subject: school years + ships + GoF movie In-Reply-To: <9r6m2t+f5gr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r6n1l+k57s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28147 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > Actually you can smoke from 16 as well as get married with your > parents permission. At 18 you can also vote. Ah, probably testament to my non-smoker status that i got that one wrong. forgot about the others.... > How have you got tickets for November 10th? I thought it didn't come > to England until november 16th? Warner cinemas are having "preview" screenings the weekend of the 10/11th November. I booked my tickets on Monday - no idea whether or not they have sold out yet. Check http://www.warnervillage.co.uk/Promotions/HP/potter.asp for info. Shane From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:42:41 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:42:41 -0000 Subject: Ther Inter-house Championship (book four) In-Reply-To: <9qdffu+3j18@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r6nhh+td1l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28148 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: > Inter-House Championship and Quidditch Cup are two seperate intenties. > Both were, in the end, cancelled in GOF. Quidditch Cup was cancelled > because of the tournament, and Inter-House Championship out of respect > for Cedric's death. Both can be backed-up with textual (canon) evidence. > > -Megan Right. The confusion comes because winning the quidditch cup is one of the many ways to score points, and it is those points that contribute to winning the house cup. Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:47:03 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:47:03 -0000 Subject: Movie Baron Message-ID: <9r6npn+rf78@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28149 Hi. I tried to find some reference for this in the past posts (I've been very deliquent for a while), but couldn't. The little changes in the movie (Crabbe and Goyle's exact hairstyles) don't bother me at all, but the Bloody Baron Ghost in the Vanity Fair Photo-essay totally shocked me. The whole silver blood thing is excusable because it might be hard to see in the movie, but that ghost is about as far from "Gaunt" as I can imagine. I didn't even think it possible that it could be the bloody baron. Why would Peeves fear him? If I was Peeves I'd through a big freezing water balloon at him... Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From MeriLeslie26 at aol.com Wed Oct 24 16:02:02 2001 From: MeriLeslie26 at aol.com (MeriLeslie26 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:02:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Butterbeer, was Re: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28150 In a message dated 10/24/2001 2:31:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, joym999 at aol.com writes: > Forgive me if this has already been hashed out, but I always > assumed > > butterbeer was just a more exotic and delicious variety of > gingerbeer, > > perhaps a reference to Diana Wynne Jones' butter pies. Is there any > > reason to assume it's alcoholic, especially as Harry is given it by > a > > well-disposed teacher? > > Well, it's alcoholic enough for house-elves to become drunks if they > imbibe too much. From GoF, chapter 28: I remember reading that scene, too, and being surpassed that the butterbeer is alcoholic. One thing that occurred to me is that it might be something similar to hard cider, which has about 1% (or less) alcohol in it. A normal person (teenager included) would have to drink a lot before they would feel any sort of buzz on that. Also, thinking back to my forays in Europe, I don't think it is denied to those under the age of 21 (or even 18). I hope my memory isn't playing nifty little tricks on me. I may be corrected later on. Following this train of thought, even though that amount of alcohol would not be enough to effect a person, it is enough to effect a house elf. Another thought is that butterbeer is made of something that wouldn't get humans drunk, but does get house elves drunk. What do we really know about the metabolism of a house elf? I do know that some things will induce a drunk like state in animals but will not have the same effect on humans. Look at a cat with catnip. Or even, for those of you around the South Eastern part of the US, seagulls get drunk on palmetto seeds. So drunk in fact that they would drown in nearby pools. Leslie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tillrules at aol.com Wed Oct 24 16:02:45 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:02:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shippers and Non-Shippers Message-ID: <97.1d189c79.29084025@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28151 In a message dated 10/23/2001 4:39:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, john at walton.vu writes: << Actually, from talking to kids in the target age range for the > series, it seems as if they actually care more about the romances > than we do. I think if you took a poll, you'd find that > proportionately more adults are no-shippers. Possibly because they feel more involved? i.e. they are much more likely to say "wow, wouldn't Ron make a crap boyfriend?" -- "Yeah, especially for Hermione", because it's their age group. >> This seems to be true. I also think there is a wish fulfilment element here. I go to Fanfiction.net, a lot and I can't count how many stories that you see with "a new girl with a mysterious past who holds the secret to beating Voldemort" and it's invariably a young female writer and the character invariably ends up as Harry's love interest. Or take the Draco can be reformed by love argument. How many young girls dream of changing the class bad boy, especially when he's handsome, rich and witty? This is not to say that all Draco isn't equal folks are secretly in love with him or some such, but there is an an element of that in younger readers. It certainly fits a teen female romantic mold (the reformed rogue, who's only bad because of some dark secret, Angel on Buffy the Vampire Slayer for example). David (who since everyone else is putting this out is a OBHWF, thinks Draco is evil and will not be redeemed [at least in part because JKR already said so] and thinks Hermione is probably the same age give or take a few months as Harry) From MmeBurgess at msn.com Wed Oct 24 16:29:05 2001 From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:29:05 -0400 Subject: Butterbeer, etc Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28152 Greetings, all! Just a few things to say: In talking about the alcohol-ness (is that a word?!?) of butterbeer, it has been brought up that people feel uncomfortable with the idea of adults giving children alcohol as connected with butterbeer. I believe that the best proof that butterbeer has alcohol in it is when the boys are down in the kitchens and Dobby says that Winky is drinking 6 bottles a day. Ron (or Harry? I don't have my books!) replies that it is not "strong stuff", and then Dobby responds that it is for a house-elf. Now, I don't think that this means that when the kids are drinking butterbeer, they are becoming young alcoholics or anything. Keep in mind that in much of Europe, children begin drinking watered down wine at a young age. By the time they are in high school, it is not uncommon for them to drink a glass of actual wine with dinner. The idea of a teacher or other responsible adult giving the kids butterbeer would not be strange by these standards. Of course, this is just my take on things. To be perfectly honest, I am an American and not by any stretch of the imagination European. However, from my studies of French and in talking with fellow students who *are* European, this is what I have discovered. Please feel free to enlighten me if you have a different view of things. AngelaGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chl0525 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 17:00:17 2001 From: chl0525 at hotmail.com (chl0525 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:00:17 -0000 Subject: PoA printing Error Book In-Reply-To: <9r4ba6+jm3v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r6s31+7c4r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28153 It is possibe that it was just bound upside down. They print the pages in signatures and then stack the signatures (a very large sheet of paper that when printed on front and back and folded a certain way make a range of pages)for gluing, stiching and then binding. (This may not be exact, it's been a while since my college printing classes) Anyway, I could see how a book could be bound upside down, I am just surprised that the publisher/book binder allowed an error like that to slip out. You should keep it. It may be worth money someday. Or at least sell it on ebay... returning to lurkdom Michelle --- In HPforGrownups at y..., alexp at a... wrote: > I have a copy of PoA That is Printed upside down. > When [Year 3] is at the top, Harry Potter and the PoA is read from > top to bottom, if the book is opened, you are at the last page, > upside down. You havev to flip it over to read. > Does anyone else have a PoA like this. > Does Anyone Want it? > Alex From bbennett at joymail.com Wed Oct 24 17:22:18 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:22:18 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers In-Reply-To: <3BD63B01.2020308@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9r6tca+o8a4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28154 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Kanna Ophelia wrote: > >It's not any mention that concerns me, it's the "forcing it down our throats" that I'm dubious about. What's wrong with wanting to keep the focus on the books on the magic of Hogwarts, friendship and fighting the baddies than on pre-adult fumblings? Penny wrote: > I'm not sure where the "forcing it down our throats" notion comes from. Is it that people believe JKR was heavy-handed with the romance subplot in GoF (Ron's developing crush on Hermione)? I trust that she'll handle that aspect of the books with her usual finesse and I doubt that anything will seem forced. I've never said that I expect or even want the *focus* to be romance-related. I just think it will be there in some measure, and I welcome this. It would seem unrealistic for it to be otherwise. > I agree with Penny; I'm not sure where the idea of "forcing down our throats" originated in regard to romance. JKR has, IMO, been beautifully subtle with what she's written so far, and I have no reason to believe that she'll do likewise in coming novels. I also agree with Penny in that it would be unrealistic to avoid some aspect of romance; this is part of growing up, regardless of whether your first date comes at 14 or 10 years later. As to the original thread on shipping, I don't support the notion of Ron and Hermione potentially being in a relationship simply because I like the pairing; I support this theory because I interpret that this is where JKR is going in canon (yes, Ron obviously likes Hermione, but I believe it's also there that Hermione likes Ron back). If JKR decides not to go in this direction, far be it from me to criticize my favorite author - although I would expect to see some sort of explanation as to what I would perceive as a characterization switch in her future writings. Best, B From oppen at cnsinternet.com Wed Oct 24 18:17:03 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:17:03 -0500 Subject: Butterbeer and drinking in the Potterverse Message-ID: <012401c15cb8$15ad47a0$c2c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 28155 Myself, I think that young wizards (below the "legal age" for drinking in the Muggle world) drinking butterbeer is more an artifact of the general old-fashionedness of the wizard world. Prior to Victorian times, it was nothing out of the ordinary for children to drink, even to drink enough to make them tipsy and sleepy, at much younger ages than HP & Co. In colonial times in America, children drank "flip" (a mixture of egg, spices, ale, beer or cider and a few other things) and small beer. This changed in the (English-speaking?) Muggle world during Victorian times, as part of what I consider their grotesque and absurd cult of childhood "innocence." By the time this was done, the idealized "innocent child" had become the most overrated human being since G. Julius Caesar threw his arms around Brutus and said "You're like a son to me!" It still goes on in some countries; my best girlfriend in college told me about seeing French kids drinking wine or cider with their parents and nobody thinking anything of it, and this is the rule in many other cultures. I've spoken with exchange students who find American high school students' attitude toward watery American beer incredibly stupid and childish, since at home, they can drink beer, or wine, if they want to. Remember in GoF, when Karakoff eagerly offers Victor Krum some mulled wine? When the other boy asks for some, Karakoff snaps at him, but doesn't say "Oh, you SINNER! You want to drink WINE! Wine is urine from the last leper in Hell!" (Thank you, Lady Whiteadder...I wonder why all of a sudden Victor is looking slightly green?) From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com Wed Oct 24 19:14:50 2001 From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:14:50 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r73va+5lhe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28156 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > Ebony wrote: > > > Actually, from talking to kids in the target age range for the > > series, it seems as if they actually care more about the romances > > than we do. I think if you took a poll, you'd find that > > proportionately more adults are no-shippers. > > Possibly because they feel more involved? i.e. they are much more likely to > say "wow, wouldn't Ron make a crap boyfriend?" -- "Yeah, especially for > Hermione", because it's their age group. This is kind of funny, because I was having this discussion with my 13-year-old cousin, who is definitely in the H/H camp. (Harry and Hermione are closer friends than Ron and Hermione, after all.) She likes Ron and thinks he's funny, but she feels he has a bit of growing up to do before he'd make a decent boyfriend, especially for Hermione. He's too fixated on looks at this point. Then again, she also thinks that Snape and Trelawney would make a good couple. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that. I'm not pro-any ship in fanfic (the whole point of fic, after all, is to play around with what the author wants to see) and as for canon, I'll accept whatever Rowling throws out at us as long as it's believable. I emphasize that point as I've read too many romance novels where the relationship is not arrived at in a way according to what the reader knows about the characters. Meril From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 24 19:34:36 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:34:36 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movi... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r754c+d6ug@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28157 Cindy wrote: > >I know this is controversial, but I'd eliminate the QWC > > entirely, just for starters. > > Harriet wrote: > > Oh, but Cindy, what about the conjuring of the Dark Mark, which takes place > after the QWC is over, not to mention the fact that the cup is exciting,what > with the Veela and the lepracauns, Krum flying around, etc. > Yes, trying to just yank a chapter out of GoF is darn near impossible, isn't it? I haven't seen many books that had so many pieces that had to be there to support other pieces. That's why I like the book so much, and why I think it is going to such a nasty challenge to make the movie less than 3.5 hours long. Only JKR knows what matters most for the series, but we all know what matters most for GoF itself. (It may well be that GoF is going to have to be done as a movie that stands on its own, as there might not be time to establish things for later films.) And there are three chapters, I think, that have the least to do with the major plotlines. QWC is one. The Unexpected Task and Yule Ball are the others. So that's where'd start cutting. The big challenge would be figuring out how to establish all of the Dark Mark chapter stuff if the QWC isn't there. Um, I'd have to get back to you on that. The reason those particular chapters would be my targets aren't that they lack interest or anything. I enjoyed them quite a bit, actually, although I liked the Yule Ball and Unexpected Task more than the QWC. It is just that I felt that GoF's slowest moments were in the beginning -- the parts before their arrival at Hogwarts. Once they got to Hogwarts and Moody was on the scene, we were really having a great old time. Anyway, the job is certainly bigger than I am. Even if you eliminate all of the chapters I would think about cutting, you're still way too long for a manageable movie. Something drastic has to be done, but I just don't know what that might be. Cindy From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 20:17:26 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barb) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:17:26 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movi... In-Reply-To: <9r754c+d6ug@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r77km+e5an@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28159 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Cindy wrote: > Anyway, the job is certainly bigger than I am. Even if you > eliminate all of the chapters I would think about cutting, you're > still way too long for a manageable movie. Something drastic has > to be done, but I just don't know what that might be. :sigh: I wasn't going to say anything to this thread, really I wasn't...But I think the something drastic IS the division of the book into two movies. It's not unprecedented; the second and third Back to the Future Movies were filmed back to back and the end of the second bumps right up on the beginning of the third. There are actually a couple of plausible places to split GoF for two movies: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Part I and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Part II. 1) The first film could end just as Harry's name actually comes out of the Goblet and Dumbledore calls out, "Harry Potter." Talk about a cliffhanger! However, in the U.S. version that occurs on page 271 and the book continues on to page 734. That would mean the second film having to cover 457 pages (although nothing says they have to be identical lengths). Not that there aren't things in the second part that can't be drastically cut down (I would vote for abbreviating any scene having to do with Blast-Ended Skrewts). 2) The first film could end just as Harry walks out of the champions' tent during the first task and he looks up at the Hungarian Horntail. (Nothing says you have to end at the end of a chapter.) It would be another good cliff-hanger, and since that occurs on page 353 of the U.S. version, leaving only 389 pages, it would be closer to a 50-50 split. One also has to remember that a book is a very different animal than a film. Something that takes an entire page to describe can be shown to us in a frame or two. Dialogue takes longer, but a clever scriptwriter can help cut that down while retaining important plot points. --Barb (Who would be a happy woman if the first movie were to open NOW. And if the fifth book were ready yesterday. And the sixth book. And the second movie...) From bbennett at joymail.com Wed Oct 24 20:18:50 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:18:50 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers (in defense of Ron) In-Reply-To: <9r73va+5lhe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r77na+qgen@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28160 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lady.nymphaea at f... wrote: I'm amused when I hear statements like "Ron is too fixated on looks at this point". Yes, Ron made the comment regarding poor Eloise's crooked nose, but Ron is obviously the one that has an interest in Hermione - bushy haired, pre-teeth straightened and all. Harry is the one with the crush on the exceptionally pretty Cho, yet Ron is always accused of being the superficial one. Really, this makes no sense to me. And since I'm being argumentative :*), I'll also say that I don't see evidence that Hermione is a much closer friend to Harry than she is to Ron. Remember, the books are from Harry's POV, so we see the time he spends with Ron and with Hermione, but we don't hear about the time Ron and Hermione might be spending together, unless Harry happens to allude to it. Ron and Hermione bicker, but Harry frequently agrees with Ron's position - he just doesn't open his mouth to agree. I don't see the bickering between Ron and Hermione as evidence of a less intimate friendship than the one Harry shares with Hermione; Hermione seems to me to be the type who loves a good debate, and Ron is the one who'll "fight" with her, not Harry (in other words, while she often expresses vexation at Ron's opinions, she doesn't seem put that out that Ron *expresses* his opinions). I'm not at all arguing that Hermione and Ron are closer than Hermione and Harry, just that there's no evidence Harry and Hermione are closer than Hermione and Ron. My, I haven't defended Ron in quite a while - that felt good . B From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 20:33:28 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:33:28 -0000 Subject: school years + ships + GoF movie In-Reply-To: <9r6m2t+f5gr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r78io+srim@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28161 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., shanerichmond at h... wrote: > > > Anyway, just to add my experiences to Sofie's comments above. I > > turned 11 on June 30 1985 and started secondary school in September > > 85. My best friend throughout school had his birthday on September > >4, meaning that he was twelve just days after starting secondary > >school while I had to wait another ten months, turning 12 just two > >weeks before term finished. Purely from my experience, I would say > >this is the most plausible answer to the mystery. > > Finally someone who agrees with me, woohoo! Locally, our "cut-off" date is September 1st. Anyone born after that is deferred until the next year. You must be 5 (for kindergarten) by that date to entire primary school. This seems logically when applied to Hermione's situation. There's no direct evidence that she could have possibly received an "early letter". As I argued before, if Hermione were a "special case" then why wouldn't some comment have been made by the teachers (because obviously they'd have to be consulted for this special case). They did know her, or of her, before Hermione's arrival at Hogwarts. Just because she's intelligent doesn't mean she was necessarily skipped up in Hogwarts. Besides, the wizard world strikes me as something independent--and not following trends of "moving up in the grades" as a Muggle school might. Seems to me Dumbledore would simply find more work for them . Not to mention the social-ramifications! (coming from a man who is trying to make everyone "equal" at Hogwarts) -Megan (semi-Shipper, P.I.N.E., small-Hogwarts, pro-1979, R/H, will-never-qualify-as-a-L.O.O.N., and the thousands of other little acronyms you guys seem to make up from thin-air...[make a guide, PLEASE!]) http://vwohp.harrypotterfun.com From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 20:43:05 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:43:05 -0000 Subject: Acronyms and HPfGU code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r794p+tjhe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28162 > Since I'm the one who suggested it, I suspect I'll be lumbered with > getting it up and going. Anyway, I'm new to this group, so I don't know > half of the acronyms (and I have read the shorthand guide, they're not > in there) ... could people please reply back with all the membership > acronyms they know, and their expansion (and what they mean would probably > help to). > > [note to list admins - should this be moved to OT-Chatter?] > > James Andrewartha I have to agree with you on this one! I've been here for a few weeks, and I still don't know most of them. The ships, of course, are posted in the FAQ, but the rest is mainly 'fend for yourself. Perhaps the acronyms can have their own special help section somewhere. -Megan (C.R.A.B., P.I.N.E., semi-Shipper, pro-1979, small-Hogwartian, will-never-be-a-L.O.O.N., R/H, Snape-is-NOT-a-vampire, and someone needs to make one for our dear Lupin...) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 24 20:51:33 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:51:33 -0000 Subject: Acronyms and HPfGU code In-Reply-To: <9r794p+tjhe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r79kl+30th@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28163 James wrote: > > Since I'm the one who suggested it, I suspect I'll be lumbered with > > getting it up and going. Anyway, I'm new to this group, so I don't know > > half of the acronyms (and I have read the shorthand guide, they're not > > in there) ... could people please reply back with all the membership > > acronyms they know, and their expansion (and what they mean would > probably > > help to). > > Megan wrote: > > I have to agree with you on this one! I've been here for a few weeks, > and I still don't know most of them. The ships, of course, are > posted in the FAQ, but the rest is mainly 'fend for yourself. Perhaps > the acronyms can have their own special help section somewhere. > Maybe we should just do a quick list, because I can't remember them all, and there wasn't a consensus on the best Lupin one. I suggested D.A.T.L.I.G. (Desist Arguing That Lupin Is a Goner), but that is not nearly as good as what someone else (John?) suggested, but I can't recall it. There was a Lockhart one, too. Here's what I remember (omitting those on the VFAQs): P.I.N.E. = Percy. Is. Not. Evil. C.R.A.B. = Cut Ron A Break. S.S.H.I.A.B.B. = Stop Saying Hermione Is A Bossy Braggard. L.O.O.N = League Of Obsessed Nitpickers. S.A.D. = Society of Apologists for the Director. Canonite = Someone interested in canon rather than OT chatter. That's all I can remember. Can anyone help? Cindy (who doesn't understand the part about the code, because she is math-averse and panics when she sees plus-signs) From monica.coyne at tesco.net Wed Oct 24 20:52:10 2001 From: monica.coyne at tesco.net (Monica Coyne) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:52:10 +0100 Subject: consent laws in the UK Message-ID: <001401c15ccd$ca3979e0$daedfea9@onair> No: HPFGUIDX 28164 >I'm not sure if anyone has cleared this up, so >apologies if I'm >repeating stuff but ages of consent in the UK are >as follows... >16: Can consent to heterosexual sex >17: Can drive a car >18: Can consent to homosexual sex / Can drink >alcohol / Can smoke tobacco / Can gamble . Not quite right you can smoke,gamble and consent to male homosexual sex at 16. There is no age limit to female homosexual sex, Queen Victoria refused to believe such people existed. As regards Butterbeer if it was alcoholic and assuming the wizard laws were similar to muggle ones Ron would not be able to buy it in till he was 18. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 21:08:34 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:08:34 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r7aki+i3rg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28165 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > Problem is, we don't KNOW that it's a subplot! Don't forget, JKR has laid > enough of a trail for us in previous books that SPEW and Bagman could very > well be very important indeed > > --John The Bagman plot was just plain annoying, which was the reason I argue for its elimination. But I think if they are going to make GoF into a movie, they HAVE to cut stuff that are not important to GoF's conclusion itself. I was one of those who favoured moving the snake scene to CoS and tend to think that each movie should be made as self-contained as possible. Two movies is possible -- the good place to make the chop would be just after the Pensieve when Dumbledore said 'Good luck with The Third Task.' That would be a cliffhanger as we go into the intermission and there would still be at least 250 pages to go. Running time would be about four and a half hours altogether -- may even be longer than Lawrence of Arabia or Apocalypse now (the redux version). From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 24 22:07:55 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:07:55 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movies? In-Reply-To: <9r7aki+i3rg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7e3r+q2fn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28166 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote: > > The Bagman plot was just plain annoying, which was the reason I argue > for its elimination. > > Two movies is possible -- the good place to make the chop would be > just after the Pensieve when Dumbledore said 'Good luck with The > Third Task.' That would be a cliffhanger as we go into the > intermission and there would still be at least 250 pages to go. > Running time would be about four and a half hours altogether -- may > even be longer than Lawrence of Arabia or Apocalypse now (the redux > version). I'm still noodling this "two movies will work" theory out. If we're talking about a feature length film that people are supposed to pay good money to see, it absolutely has to have a climax (doesn't it?). The second half is easy -- do it as written. But where's the climax in the first half, i.e. Movie No. 1? QWC surely won't work, as it is too early and not really Harry-centered. Heck, I'm not sure that there are two climaxes in GoF. There's the graveyard escape, and there's the escape from Crouch/Moody, and there is each task. Maybe the way to pull two movies out of GoF is to re- arrange the events in some fashion. Like, the Pensieve could come a lot sooner in the book, couldn't it? So could the Dream, maybe? Or they might have some screenwriter "add" some big climax to Movie No. 1. But I'd hate to see them add something to GoF just to give it a standard-issue Hollywood climax. (The possibilities are just hideous. Like Harry gets injured in the second task, and everyone crowds around his bedside, and he just pulls through at the end of Movie 1. Oh, man. That's awful.). What we need is for someone (Amy Z, are you there?) to do a fabulous essay of all of the plotlines in GoF. I guess I'm willing to be persuaded on the two-movies idea, but I'm still leaning toward one, bare-bones movie. You're right that if you take out everything that isn't central to the main plot line, you save a lot of pages, but you lose gems like The Egg and the Eye, which is one of the most clever chapters in the series, IMHO. That would really hurt. You guys have interesting ideas, that's for sure. Cindy (who wasn't bothered by the Bagman subplot because Bagman is a hideously evil Death Eater who knew all about the plot to restore Voldemort to power, and who will see Barb's skrewt edits and raise her one Winky) From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 22:03:04 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:03:04 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and the old crowd Message-ID: <9r7dqo+jgbc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28167 > > Harriet said: > > >>In reference to the "old crowd", I believe that > Arabella Figg is > the same as the Mrs. >>Figg who baby sat Harry when > he was little, > when the Dursleys wanted to go out. _____________ > That is a good point you have. I had forgotten > about Harry's baby sitter having that last name. I > assume that if is indeed a witch then she would not > let the Dursleys know this. What slightly bothers me > about that is that she would have had something more > witchy about her. Unless her parents were muggles, > she wouldn't have known how to properly act in a > muggle society. The fact that she is a witch would > explain why she is so fond of cats though. If Arabella > Figg was Harry's babysitter though she would have let > Harry know something about his heritage right? I think > that she would have told him something of his parents. > Any thoughts? > > Scott From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com Wed Oct 24 22:31:56 2001 From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:31:56 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers (in defense of Ron) In-Reply-To: <9r77na+qgen@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7fgs+gao0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28168 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote: > I'm amused when I hear statements like "Ron is too fixated on looks > at this point". Yes, Ron made the comment regarding poor Eloise's > crooked nose, but Ron is obviously the one that has an interest in > Hermione - bushy haired, pre-teeth straightened and all. Harry is the > one with the crush on the exceptionally pretty Cho, yet Ron is always > accused of being the superficial one. Really, this makes no sense to > me. I'll have to tell my cousin about this ^_^ I should have put that the first paragraph of my post was me paraphrasing what she said. A lot of things she says don't make sense, honestly, but it's been a good while since I've been 13 ^_^ My thoughts on the Ball: Ron is definitely interested in Hermione, but IMO he didn't think of asking her out beforehand because, well, it would have been like asking Harry out. They were going to be hanging around together all night any way, as usual (which is what Harry and Ron did in the end, without Hermione.) If he had to find a date that wasn't a friend of his, he might as well shoot for the top of the fourth-year girl pool. I felt like bonking both of them for choosing to stay together and not bothering to socialize with the Patil twins, but that's boys for you. Or, perhaps, it's just shy, noncommunicative Harry again. I wish Harry would get more of a backbone in his personal life. Yes, he is the Boy Who Lived, but when it comes to his friends and romantic matters, he's the Boy With Nothing To Say. I like Ron. He's one of the more rounded characters in the book. It's too bad he needs defending all the time. ^_- Meril (who could care less about ships, and believes that the Weasley family consists of anyone the family loves, and that Snape could be well-nigh anything, but we know he's messed up at least) From vderark at bccs.org Wed Oct 24 22:32:41 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:32:41 -0000 Subject: Arabella Figg and the old crowd In-Reply-To: <9r7dqo+jgbc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7fi9+c75m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28169 Yes, Arabella Figg is the same person as Mrs. Figg. JKR stated this in an interview. There is ample evidence for this in the books, too, and most of us had pretty much come to that conclusion even before she told us. refer to: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/figg.html Steve Vander Ark From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 22:58:25 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:58:25 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movies? In-Reply-To: <9r7e3r+q2fn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7h2h+n3bd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28170 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: What we need is for someone (Amy > Z, are you there?) to do a fabulous essay of all of the plotlines in > GoF. > > I guess I'm willing to be persuaded on the two-movies idea, but I'm > still leaning toward one, bare-bones movie. You're right that if you > take out everything that isn't central to the main plot line, you > save a lot of pages, but you lose gems like The Egg and the Eye, > which is one of the most clever chapters in the series, IMHO. That > would really hurt. (Ooo, this kind of ties into the previous POA debate/analysis) Could be a very interesting essay, I imagine ;-). I'm hard-pressed to even SEE a GOF movie, quite frankly. WB is pushing COS just to get it down before the trio "matures" in real life. They have also stated it's basically impossible to do seven movies in seven years. How far do you really think it will last? PERSONALLY, I think it should stop at the first movie (get the people hooked, read the book, then want to read the series!)--but obviously that is not going to happen :-D. (Of course, POA would be a DREAM to watch on screeen) Somehow I can see WB executives exhausting the script for a potential GOF movie, throwing their hands up in the air, and finally saying--"No matter how we do it, it wouldn't be as great as the first three--let's stop here!" (never mind contract deals--LOL!) One can only hope perhaps JKR will put her foot down here. -Megan (wishing US theatres would get the preview-dates that the British have caught onto) http://vwohp.harrypotter.com From degroote at altavista.com Wed Oct 24 23:04:36 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 24 Oct 2001 16:04:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: NEWS: Book three script and TWO book four movies? Message-ID: <20011024230436.24212.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28171 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 23:10:03 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:10:03 -0000 Subject: Acronyms and HPfGU code In-Reply-To: <9r79kl+30th@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7hob+3v4r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28173 (largest apologies for the double post--deleted old version--my acronyms were messed up!) Cindy wrote: > P.I.N.E. = Percy. Is. Not. Evil. > C.R.A.B. = Cut Ron A Break. > S.S.H.I.A.B.B. = Stop Saying Hermione Is A Bossy Braggard. > L.O.O.N. = League Of Obsessed Nitpickers. > S.A.D. = Society of Apologists for the Director. > Canonite = Someone interested in canon rather than OT chatter. L.I.G.H.T.R.E.L.I.E.F. = Lockhart is Genuinely Hilarious Territory: a Really Entertaining Loser, If Evil Fellow L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P = Love Of Lily Left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus (previously suggested) F.O.P.F. = Fans of Padfoot (my suggestion for Lupin-group) G.O.R.E. = Group of Remus Enthusiasts -Megan (who did not even think of Al Gore until she almost hit Send) From nelly3334 at aol.com Wed Oct 24 23:16:47 2001 From: nelly3334 at aol.com (nelly3334 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:16:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shippers and Non-Shippers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28175 but if the books cont. with no romantic thoughts by the time they're all 17 wouldn't that be less than realistic??? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Oct 24 23:17:22 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:17:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Butterbeer and drinking in the Potterverse In-Reply-To: <012401c15cb8$15ad47a0$c2c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <20011024231722.37583.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28176 Eric Oppen wrote: No: HPFGUIDX 28177 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- BUTTERBEER Butterbeer is just the following recipe, When I lived in Ohio we made it all the time. I the recipe veries at times some people add butterscotch. It's not bad with chocolate sryup. I also found this website that might be of intrest http://uk.geocities.com/pottermovie/butter.htm INGREDIENCE: ROOT BEER BUTTER CREAM HOW TO MAKE IT: 1. POOR ROOT BEER IN A CUP AND BUTTER IN A SMALL BOWL. 2. PUT THE BOWL OF BUTTER IN THE MICROWAVE AND MELT IT. 3. THEN PUT THE ROOT BEER IN THE MICROWAVE, BUT NOT TO LONG BECAUSE YOU WANT IT TO BE MODERATELY WARM BUT NOT TO WARM OR IT ISN'T FIZZY AND GOOD ANYMORE. 4. POUR SOME MELTED BUTTER IN THE ROOT BEER BUT NOT TO MUCH. 5. THEN POUR SOME CREAM a(THE SAME KIND AS YOU PUT IN COFFEE) IN. 6. IT MIGHT TAKE A FEW TRIES TO MAKE THE RIGHT AMOUNTS FOR YOUR LIKING. Tracey From oppen at cnsinternet.com Thu Oct 25 00:20:42 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:20:42 -0500 Subject: I hope this hasn't been hashed to death... Message-ID: <00bc01c15cea$e28bcd00$f9c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 28178 What is Harry Potter's full real name? I know his middle name is "James," but is "Harry" short for "Henry" or "Harold?" From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 00:20:48 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:20:48 -0000 Subject: Butterbeer In-Reply-To: <9r7j2a+acih@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7lt0+k5m6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28179 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tracey" wrote: > > BUTTERBEER > Butterbeer is just the following recipe, When I lived in Ohio > we made it all the time. I the recipe veries at times some > people add butterscotch. It's not bad with chocolate sryup. > > INGREDIENCE: > ROOT BEER > BUTTER > CREAM That may be an American sort of butterbeer (one that as a Delawarean I've never encountered), but it seems unlikely to me that a British butterbeer would be based on root beer. Root beer is a very un- European beverage, whose flavor evokes "cough syrup" or "medicine" to the palates of most Europeans I know who've sampled it. Perhaps it's different in England, but I'm very skeptic. Indeed any approximation involving a *microwave* (as this recipe does) should be seen as a silly American imitation--possibly downed while playing Quodpot or somesuch.... ;^) ....Craig, who suspects that Jo would be amused at such a knockoff From joym999 at aol.com Thu Oct 25 00:47:25 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:47:25 -0000 Subject: Acronyms and HPfGU code In-Reply-To: <9r7hob+3v4r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7net+b2dr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28180 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Megan" wrote: > (largest apologies for the double post--deleted old version--my > acronyms were messed up!) > > Cindy wrote: > > P.I.N.E. = Percy. Is. Not. Evil. > > C.R.A.B. = Cut Ron A Break. > > S.S.H.I.A.B.B. = Stop Saying Hermione Is A Bossy Braggard. > > L.O.O.N. = League Of Obsessed Nitpickers. > > S.A.D. = Society of Apologists for the Director. > > Canonite = Someone interested in canon rather than OT chatter. > > L.I.G.H.T.R.E.L.I.E.F. = Lockhart is Genuinely Hilarious Territory: a > Really Entertaining Loser, If Evil Fellow > L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P = Love Of Lily Left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus > (previously suggested) F.O.P.F. = Fans of Padfoot > (my suggestion for Lupin-group) G.O.R.E. = Group of Remus Enthusiasts And don't forget my group, even though I may be the only member: S.U.A.V.E. (Snape's Unquestionably A Vampire Evil) Joywitch, who admits to starting this insanity with her invention of L.O.O.N. From ebonyink at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 00:51:50 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:51:50 -0000 Subject: Butterbeer In-Reply-To: <9r7lt0+k5m6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7nn6+3ied@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28181 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > That may be an American sort of butterbeer (one that as a Delawarean I've never encountered), but it seems unlikely to me that a British butterbeer would be based on root beer. Root beer is a very un- European beverage, whose flavor evokes "cough syrup" or "medicine" to the palates of most Europeans I know who've sampled it. Perhaps it's different in England, but I'm very skeptic. > Perhaps it's just me, but non-alcoholic soft drinks are NOT a European strong point. This is why I do think butterbeer has at least a slight alcoholic content... America invented Coke. :-D > Indeed any approximation involving a *microwave* (as this recipe does) should be seen as a silly American imitation--possibly downed while playing Quodpot or somesuch.... ;^) > Oh, come on, now. There is nothing wrong with the maxim "work smarter, not harder". --Ebony AKA AngieJ (a huge A&W root beer fan) From Joanne0012 at aol.com Thu Oct 25 01:30:22 2001 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (Joanne0012 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:30:22 -0000 Subject: Butterbeer, was Re: Food&Drink, Topic Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9r7pve+komi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28182 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kanna Ophelia wrote: > Forgive me if this has already been hashed out, but I always assumed > butterbeer was just a more exotic and delicious variety of gingerbeer, > perhaps a reference to Diana Wynne Jones' butter pies. Is there any > reason to assume it's alcoholic, especially as Harry is given it by a > well-disposed teacher? In my experience, the British, like the Italians, are much mor relaxed about kids drinking slightly-alcoholic beverages. Last summer, my kids ordered "Victorian Lemonade" at a British tea room, and only after they had drunk half of it did we check the bottle labels and discover that it was slightly alcoholic. My kids are 13 and 15 years old. From bbennett at joymail.com Thu Oct 25 01:38:16 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:38:16 -0000 Subject: Ron/Ball (was Shippers and Non-Shippers (in defense of Ron) In-Reply-To: <9r7fgs+gao0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7qe8+g39t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28183 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lady.nymphaea at f... wrote: > My thoughts on the Ball: Ron is definitely interested in Hermione, > but IMO he didn't think of asking her out beforehand because, well, > it would have been like asking Harry out. They were going to be > hanging around together all night any way, as usual (which is what > Harry and Ron did in the end, without Hermione.) I agree that Ron was being a prat, and I think you nailed it - he just assumed it would ultimately be three of them at the ball. He had *no clue* anyone else would think to ask Hermione (I did say he was being a prat, right?), and God forbid he actually ask her as if it were a real date - someone might *think* he liked her! The horror! :*) B From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 02:25:19 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny inconsistancy? In-Reply-To: <9r477v+t8tf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011025022519.92856.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28184 However, let's not forget our own early childhood times, since I am the younger sister, I know I "remember" things from my childhood, not from my own memory, but from my family talking about it, and since going to Hogwarts is such Weasley family event Ginny probably has always wanted to go just like her older brothers. Plus, since Ginny seems to look up to Bill the most, proof when she stands up for Bill and his earing and his long hair (GoF... I don't have my books w/ me right now, don't know the quote.) If Ginny just remembers everybody talking about Hogwarts, she will think she remembers Bill going. But I do feel it is a FLINT, but I have to argue the other side, because I like to... :) Sorry so long getting back to this, but life (as usual) is mucho busy... working 12 to 15 hrs of overtime and going to school.... Laura :) > > > I don't know which edition you have, but in the US > edition, it > says, "since > > Bill went", which could mean when he went as a > seventh year, at > which time > > she could've been 2 or 3 - certainly old enough to > realize that her > big > > brothers weren't around much. So it might be a > FLINT > (inconsistency (as > > defined in the VFAQ)) but it also might not be. > > > This is a close one, but I'd lean toward FLINT. > Ginny was born in > 1981. If Charlie starts Hogwarts at age 11 in 1978 > (according to > Lexicon timeline), then he was born in 1966. That > means Bill was > born in 1965 or earlier, making him at least 16 > years older than > Ginny. If Bill left Hogwarts at age 18, then Ginny > was 2 during his > seventh year. So if she's claiming to remember > something that > happened when she was two . . . well, it starts to > look like a FLINT. > > > > Cindy > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From conshydot at email.com Thu Oct 25 02:41:35 2001 From: conshydot at email.com (conshydot at email.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:41:35 -0000 Subject: Butterbeer In-Reply-To: <9r7nn6+3ied@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r7u4v+kgjc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28185 Isn't there a drink in Britain called "shandy"? I remember it as a mixture of beer and lemonade. It really was good. and, if I remember it correctly, rather refreshing after a long walk in the Lake district. I always imagined butterbeer to be like the shandy I remember. From degroote at altavista.com Thu Oct 25 04:01:15 2001 From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote) Date: 24 Oct 2001 21:01:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Butterbeer and drinking in the Potterverse Message-ID: <20011025040115.4715.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28186 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From laoisecronin at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 09:00:20 2001 From: laoisecronin at yahoo.com (laoisecronin at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:00:20 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape like Malfoy??? Message-ID: <9r8kb4+lgo4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28187 I'm new at this so i'm sorry if i get anything wrong! i've just been re-reading ps/ss and i noticed that it says numerous times that Malfoy was Snapes favorite student!why? Snape was a death eater so he must know that Malfoy's father is one too. If Snape has come over to the other side surely he would know al l the things that the Malfoy family did during Voldemorts reign. If Snape was now "good" wouldn't he dislike malfoy a little bit for this, i'm not saying he should hate him for what his father has done but he certainly wouldn't be his favourite student! Or maybe Snape is just pretending to like him to divert attention! Any thoughts???? From SALeathem at aol.com Thu Oct 25 10:59:00 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:59:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why does Snape like Malfoy??? Message-ID: <44.15321e69.29094a74@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28188 In a message dated 25/10/2001 10:01:47 GMT Daylight Time, laoisecronin at yahoo.com writes: << i've just been re-reading ps/ss and i noticed that it says numerous times that Malfoy was Snapes favorite student!why? Snape was a death eater so he must know that Malfoy's father is one too. If Snape has come over to the other side surely he would know al l the things that the Malfoy family did during Voldemorts reign. If Snape was now "good" wouldn't he dislike malfoy a little bit for this, i'm not saying he should hate him for what his father has done but he certainly wouldn't be his favourite student! Or maybe Snape is just pretending to like him to divert attention! Any thoughts???? >> I think one reason he likes him is beacuse Malfoy is in Slytherin, and Snape is head of Slytherin house. Favouritism towards his own students. Malfoy obviously dislikes Harry and Snape doesn't like Harry or Harry's father. Another reason I think is that Snape knows Lucius Malfoy, death eater or not, currently has/had a lot of power over the governors of the school and the ministry, and by keeping his son sweet, there could be a chance that Lucius could get Snape a better position in the school or elsewhere. We also don't know for sure that Snape is really good. It has been said that he returned to the good side and became a spy for Dumbledore at great personal risk to himself, but some of his actions have been puzzling if he really is on the good side. Another thing I've just thought of is, there's a possiblity that Lucius didn't know Snape was spying while he was a Death Eater, and by giving Draco a frosty reception Lucius' suspicions could be raised as I would imagine Draco would be the first to send an owl home slagging off anyone that wasn't nice to him. But mostly I'd go with the favouritism and the fact that they both don't like Harry. Plus it could be a bit pot calling the kettle black if Snape kept his distance from the Malfoy's because of what they did as Death Eaters when he was one himself for a while, and at the time, there was no Voldemort anymore. Sara From SALeathem at aol.com Thu Oct 25 11:10:25 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:10:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Butterbeer Message-ID: <9c.152f37ef.29094d21@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28189 In a message dated 25/10/2001 03:45:06 GMT Daylight Time, conshydot at email.com writes: << Isn't there a drink in Britain called "shandy"? I remember it as a mixture of beer and lemonade..... I always imagined butterbeer to be like the shandy I remember. >> Ugh... I can't see Butterbeer being remotely Shandy like. It sounds sweet, something Shandy definitly isn't, and slightly whiskey-ish (by that I mean warming... Shandy was never warming). However, it does raise another point. You used to be able to buy cans of really low alcohol content Shandy over here. So if you were a kid they'd sell it to you cos the alcohol content was basically obselete. That was about the same time Harry Ron & Hermione would have been starting Hogwarts (I was 9, my brother was 11). i can't believe I used to drink that stuff either... You can buy Root beer over here (England), though it's not prolific. I've only ever seen it in Sainsbury's. It's fairly new addition to the shelves as well. More common is Dandylion and Burdock, similar looking and smelling, but tastes alot like aniceed (and is therefore gross...) Sara - who prefers Becks, a nice Red wine or anything with Vodka in it these days... though Butterbeer does sound nice. I always imagined it to be a kind of alcoholic melted butterscotch solution. Nice and sweet and lovely. From laoisecronin at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 11:35:17 2001 From: laoisecronin at yahoo.com (laoisecronin at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:35:17 -0000 Subject: Snape and Quirrell in ps/ss ?? Message-ID: <9r8tdl+d46@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28190 Did anyone ever wonder why Snape suspected Quirrell was after the stone?(book 1) Quirrell said that Snape already suspected him at halloween which is early enough in the year. If Quirrell had been a nervous and jittery person all these years what made Snape suspect anything was different about him this year?.Also every one seemed to think that Quirrell was incapable of doing anything much in the way of dark magic(they only read from books in class) so some thing must have happened that made Snape think otherwise.But we are never told what this was. Did Snape ever even voice his suspicions to Dumbledore?. Dumbledore never says anything about Snape suspecting Quirrell(well not to Harry anyway). Did Snape somehow know that Voldmort was involved( can he "sence" Voldemort through his dark mark in the same way that Harry can sence him through his scar) but if he thought this he would have had to tell Dumbledore about it. Wouldn't he?.Maybe he knew all along but really wanted Quirrell to suceed and he had to appear like he was against it in case anything went wrong and he got caught. Or maybe i've gone rambling off in the totally wrong direction!.Can anyone make any sence of what i'm trying to say or is it just nitpicking at small insignificant details????? From pbnesbit at msn.com Thu Oct 25 12:09:34 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:09:34 -0000 Subject: I hope this hasn't been hashed to death... In-Reply-To: <00bc01c15cea$e28bcd00$f9c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9r8vdu+dn8j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28191 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > What is Harry Potter's full real name? I know his middle name is "James," > but is "Harry" short for "Henry" or "Harold?" It's not short for anything. His full name is Harry James Potter. (She said this in an interview somewhere, and for the life of me, I can't remember which one it was.) Interestingly enough, there was a Big Band leader named Harry James. It makes me wonder if she's a fan. Peace & Plenty, Parker From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Oct 25 12:48:42 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:48:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Quirrell in ps/ss ?? In-Reply-To: <9r8tdl+d46@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011025124842.10488.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28192 1) Quirrell himself says that he's got quite the knack with Mountain Trolls, so the fact that it was a Troll of all creatures that threatened the school at Halloween might have made Snape suspect that Quirrell had had a hand in this. 2) After the first Quidditch match there can't be any more doubt for Snape. Remains the question why he didn't tell Dumbledore, but as we see everything through Harry's eyes, we've got Harry's knowledge of the facts and so maybe Snape *did* tell the Headmaster. What would interest me more is why he tried to get past Fluffy in the first place. Or didn't he try to get past him but simply wanted to look whether the dog was still doing its job and didn't leave quickly enough? Susanna/pigwidgeon37 laoisecronin at yahoo.com wrote: Did anyone ever wonder why Snape suspected Quirrell was after the stone?(book 1) Quirrell said that Snape already suspected him at halloween which is early enough in the year. If Quirrell had been a nervous and jittery person all these years what made Snape suspect anything was different about him this year?.Also every one seemed to think that Quirrell was incapable of doing anything much in the way of dark magic(they only read from books in class) so some thing must have happened that made Snape think otherwise.But we are never told what this was. Did Snape ever even voice his suspicions to Dumbledore?. Dumbledore never says anything about Snape suspecting Quirrell(well not to Harry anyway). Did Snape somehow know that Voldmort was involved( can he "sence" Voldemort through his dark mark in the same way that Harry can sence him through his scar) but if he thought this he would have had to tell Dumbledore about it. Wouldn't he?.Maybe he knew all along but really wanted Quirrell to suceed and he had to appear like he was against it in case anything went wrong and he got caught. Or maybe i've gone rambling off in the totally wrong direction!.Can anyone make any sence of what i'm trying to say or is it just nitpicking at small insignificant details????? Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Nokia Game is on again. Click here to join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From blaise_writer at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 13:02:47 2001 From: blaise_writer at hotmail.com (Blaise) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:02:47 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape like Malfoy? In-Reply-To: <44.15321e69.29094a74@aol.com> Message-ID: <9r92hn+mqmk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28193 laoisecronin at y... asked us why Snape liked Malfoy when he should hate him for being the child of a Death Eater. I think Dumbledore's example shows us that hating a person - in this case Malfoy - for the sins of his parents is wrong. Whilst Snape does show this tendency towards Harry, there is no reason to suppose that he should automatically dislike Malfoy because Lucius Malfoy is a Death Eater. Of course, being Snape, he probably would fall into this pattern of behaviour anyway. Sara suggested: <> I agree with most of these ideas. The question of why Snape likes Malfoy so much has puzzled me on numerous occasions. I am quite sure that Snape doesn't feel much personal affection towards Draco. Perhaps it's cynical of me to think that Snape isn't actually fond of Draco, as Hagrid is of Harry, but few of Snape's actions (praise in class, rewarding with points, leniency of punishment) speak to anything more than manipulation. Snape is making use of the fact that he has power over Draco to further his own ends. But what are those ends? I would support Sara's suggestion that Snape wants to keep his Death Eater street-cred by favouring the child of a presumably powerful Death Eater. A natural bias towards Slytherin is understandable, too. I hadn't thought of the idea that Lucius Malfoy could get Snape into a better position at Hogwarts because of his influence. That's a good idea. With regard to their shared hatred of Harry, I don't think that makes Snape feel more positively towards Malfoy, but he can use Malfoy to get at Harry indirectly. Basically, favouring Malfoy allows Snape to get things he wants. I don't think that there can be that much doubt that Snape is really on the good side. He is, to my mind, an example of the fact that ultimate goodness and nice personality traits don't have to go hand in hand. A slightly different question: does anyone think Snape got appointed head of Slytherin by Dumbledore so that he could keep an eye on all the children of Death Eaters, and either help them to be different or learn what their parents might be up to? Blaise, who's only slightly less fascinated by Snape than by Lupin. From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 25 14:57:23 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 14:57:23 -0000 Subject: consent laws in the UK In-Reply-To: <001401c15ccd$ca3979e0$daedfea9@onair> Message-ID: <9r998j+aoeo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28194 As someone aged 17 and living in the UK I can tell you that this is how it works: 16: can consent to heterosexual sex, can buy cigarettes, can get married with parents permision, can drink wine/lager/cider in a restaraunt with a meal. 17: can start learning to drive 18: can consent to male homosexual sex (no age for female homosexual sex), can buy alcohol, can get married,can vote. So in September of book five Hermione could start smoking, she could buy butterbeer if she was eating, she could get married if she wanted to etc but Harry and ron couldn't until later in the year. I hope I've cleared this up. Sofie From john at walton.vu Thu Oct 25 15:03:27 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:03:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: consent laws in the UK In-Reply-To: <9r998j+aoeo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28195 Sofie wrote: > 16: can consent to heterosexual sex, can buy cigarettes, can get > married with parents permision, can drink wine/lager/cider in a > restaraunt with a meal. Actually, it's 14 so long as you're accompanied by an adult. > 17: can start learning to drive > 18: can consent to male homosexual sex (no age for female homosexual > sex), can buy alcohol, can get married,can vote. --John, who can't wait to see JKR's Hard-Drinking, Hard-Livin' Harry :D ____________________________________________ Don't join the book burners. Do not think you are going to conceal thoughts by concealing evidence that they ever existed. -Dwight D Eisenhower John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From john at walton.vu Thu Oct 25 15:06:43 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:06:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Acronyms and HPfGU code In-Reply-To: <9r7net+b2dr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28196 Joywitch M. Curmudgeon wrote: >> Cindy wrote: >>> P.I.N.E. = Percy. Is. Not. Evil. >>> C.R.A.B. = Cut Ron A Break. >>> S.S.H.I.A.B.B. = Stop Saying Hermione Is A Bossy Braggard. >>> L.O.O.N. = League Of Obsessed Nitpickers. >>> S.A.D. = Society of Apologists for the Director. >>> Canonite = Someone interested in canon rather than OT chatter. >> >> L.I.G.H.T.R.E.L.I.E.F. = Lockhart is Genuinely Hilarious Territory: > a >> Really Entertaining Loser, If Evil Fellow >> L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P = Love Of Lily Left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus >> (previously suggested) F.O.P.F. = Fans of Padfoot >> (my suggestion for Lupin-group) G.O.R.E. = Group of Remus > Enthusiasts > > And don't forget my group, even though I may be the only member: > > S.U.A.V.E. (Snape's Unquestionably A Vampire Evil) > > Joywitch, who admits to starting this insanity with her invention of > L.O.O.N. Oh, and: R.I.O.T.G.E.A.R. -- Ron Is Obviously a Thick Gargoyle, Especially At Relationships L.O.O.N.I.E.S.T. -- League Of Obsessed Nitpickers In Eastern Seaboard Towns. President Rock A. Hardslab. --John ____________________________________________ "Wow! They've got the internet on computers now!" -- Homer Simpson John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 25 15:10:02 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:10:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione in Ginny's year (?) and Ginny's birthday Message-ID: <9r9a0a+jbff@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28197 Hi All, Out of curiosity if Hermione was born in 1980 (which I don't think she was) would this mean that really she should be in Ginny's year? And by the way do we have any idea of when Ginny's birthday is because she has to be at least 9 months younger than Ron? So that means she must have been born between January and August 1981. Am I right that ron's birthday is in April? Sofie (a H/H, D/H, R/H, H/G D/G shipper because teenagers go out with a lot of people (but Hermione and Harry will end up together!), Draco- will-be-redeemed (or I will cry), pro-1979, Snape-is-not-a-vampire, small Hogwarts amd what does OBHWF stand for?) From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 25 15:28:51 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:28:51 -0000 Subject: Ginny inconsistancy? In-Reply-To: <20011025022519.92856.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9r9b3j+bqa3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28198 I know this has nothing to do with the original thread for this topic but I'll ask you this now anyway. Did anyone else get the impression from Ginny's behaviour in PS/SS that she was a lot younger than ten? I thought maybe she was 6/7 and then CoS came out and I read it and i was thinking 'what Ginny's 11? She can't be'. I actually re-read the scenes that she featured in, in PS/SS to try and get my head around it. Oh and another thing. After you read GoF and found out about Mungundus Fletcher was in the old crowd. Then when you re-read all the other three did you suddenly notice his being mentioned so much? Was it just me or did anyone else find this? (I apologise for the non- fluency of my writing today but I was in Paris over the weekend and I nackered!) Sofie From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 25 16:10:41 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:10:41 -0000 Subject: Ginny's maturity (WAS Ginny inconsistancy?) In-Reply-To: <9r9b3j+bqa3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r9di1+tj04@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28199 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > I know this has nothing to do with the original thread for this topic > but I'll ask you this now anyway. Did anyone else get the impression > from Ginny's behaviour in PS/SS that she was a lot younger than ten? > I thought maybe she was 6/7 and then CoS came out and I read it and i > was thinking 'what Ginny's 11? She can't be'. I hadn't thought about this, but you raise a good point. If Ginny is 10 in PS/SS, then she is quite a bit different than the 10-year-old girls I know, even the shy ones. The ones I know would never hide behind their mothers, and they tend to roll their eyes a fair amount, all in pursuit of the most important of all life goals -- looking cool. Perhaps British 10-year-old girls are different? Cindy (wondering what it might mean to be nackered) From john at walton.vu Thu Oct 25 16:10:21 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:10:21 +0100 Subject: More in the Lockhart Casting Saga In-Reply-To: <9r9b3j+bqa3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28200 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ reports that Variety says that Kenneth Branagh is going to be playing Lockhart. Huzzah! He'll be very good. The question is, who will Emma Thompson be playing? ::smirk:: --John ____________________________________________ Remember: Socks then Shoes. John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 25 16:13:46 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:13:46 -0000 Subject: Bertie's Beans (filk) Message-ID: <9r9dnq+aldm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28201 Bertie's Beans (To the tune of Let it Be) Dedicated to Ebony THE SCENE: Honeydukes in Hogsmeade. Enter HARRY HARRY: When I find myself in Hogsmeade shopping, I choose only the best cuisine I will always purchase Bertie's Beans It's a treat that comes in countless flavors, >From earwax to tangerine It's a snack to savor, Bertie's Beans Bertie's Beans, blue and green Bertie's Beans, loved by teens I will always munch on Bertie's Beans When the might of the dark powers face me, What I need to stay serene Is a bag or two of Bertie's Beans I know my foes to be cruel death eaters, Eating things that make them mean They refuse to swallow Bertie's Beans Bertie's Beans, a vaccine Against all that is unclean I will always scarf down Bertie's Beans - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From kidzero7 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 16:20:48 2001 From: kidzero7 at yahoo.com (kidzero7 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:20:48 -0000 Subject: Snape and Quirrell in ps/ss ?? In-Reply-To: <20011025124842.10488.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9r9e50+pn6s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28202 ** I just assumed he got bit on his way out of passage AFTER he seting up his magical defense or that he was just checking up on the Stone. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne Schmid wrote: > > What would interest me more is why he tried to get past Fluffy in the first place. Or didn't he try to get past him but simply wanted to look whether the dog was still doing its job and didn't leave quickly enough? From john at walton.vu Thu Oct 25 16:18:59 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:18:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bertie's Beans (filk) In-Reply-To: <9r9dnq+aldm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28203 Caius Marcius wrote: > Bertie's Beans ::waves wand in time to music:: Another great one, Caius! --John, whistling Let it Be right now. PS. Interestingly, when I tried to register www.letit.be, it was already taken. Curses, foiled again :( ____________________________________________ "No good opera plot can be sensible, for people do not sing when they are feeling sensible." -W. H. Auden John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 25 16:21:20 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:21:20 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape like Malfoy? In-Reply-To: <9r92hn+mqmk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r9e60+h82b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28204 > > Sara suggested: > > < sure that Snape is really good. It has been said that he returned to > the good side and became a spy for Dumbledore at great personal risk > to himself, but some of his actions have been puzzling if he really > is on the good side. Another thing I've just thought of is, there's a > possiblity that Lucius didn't know Snape was spying while he was a > Death Eater, and by giving Draco a frosty reception Lucius' > suspicions could be raised as I would imagine Draco would be the > first to send an owl home slagging off anyone that wasn't nice to > him.>> > Blaise wrote: > I agree with most of these ideas. The question of why Snape likes > Malfoy so much has puzzled me on numerous occasions. I would support Sara's suggestion that > Snape wants to keep his Death Eater street-cred by favouring the > child of a presumably powerful Death Eater. I would add that Snape has to give the impression to Draco that Snape is in Voldemort's camp. We know from Karkarov's testimony in the Pensieve that Snape has been successful at cultivating an image of being a DE spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Karkarov tries to win release by revealing a Big Secret that Snape is a DE. That suggests that Karkarov (and possibly other DEs and Voldemort) used to believe that Snape was spying for the Dark side. Karkarov's attempts to call Snape's attention to the mark on his arm suggests that, 15 years later, Karkarov still believes Snape is a DE spy for Voldemort. So if Snape were openly hostile to Draco, that would be inconsistent with his attempt to present himself to Voldemort as spying for Voldemort, although he's really spying for Dumbledore. Cindy (who wonders how Snape can keep all of this straight) From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 16:32:22 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (Magpie) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:32:22 -0000 Subject: Apparation/Voldy's waste/Wandering Weasleys?/Arabella/Food Glorious Food In-Reply-To: <9qq72r+4u8s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r9eqm+r50h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28205 Just catching up after playing hooky last week: Vanessa wrote: > Is it possible that one can apparate WITHIN Hogwarts but not INTO > it On reflection, this seems like such an obvious > suggestion that I can't beleive it hasn't come up before ...perhaps > someone can point me towards the right messages in the past... * Ummm, I've posted some ideas on apparation in the past. They should lead you to much better musings than mine, but it should get you going: #26704 & #27134. I've always thought that magical creatures can "apparate" in their own special way, and that wizards cannot apparate onto/out-of Hogwarts or Azkaban. In GoF, ch6, "rules" and consequences of apparation are mentioned: "Where's Bill and Charlie and Per-Per-Percy?" said George, failing to stifle a huge yawn. "Well, they're apparating, aren't they?" said Mrs. Weasley.... Harry knew that Apparating meant disappearing from one place and reappearing almost instantly in another, but had never known any Hogwarts student to do it, and understood that it was quite difficult. "So, they're still in bed?" said Fred...."Why can't we Apparate too?" "Because you're not of age and you haven't passed your test," snapped Mrs. Weasley.... "You have to pass a test to Apparate?" Harry asked. "Oh yes," said Mr. Weasley..."The Department of Magical Transportation had to fine a couple of people the other day for Apparating without a license. It's not easy, Apparition, and when it's not done properly it can lead to nasty complications...."You don't mess around with Apparition. There are plenty of adult wizards who don't bother with it." After reading that bit, I figured that Apparition is kind of like muggle driving. Something you have to practice and be licensed for, but is not a mandatory skill. *** Catlady wrote: >Counter-example: Cedric. "Kill the spare"...it was WASTEFUL. * I agree. But I think that Voldy was too busy obsessing over Harry and his own imminent "re-birth" to power to bother with Cedric. Perhaps he regretted that decision, perhaps not. Could we see Voldy's limited view used against him in later books? *** Cindy wrote: > In PS/SS, Hagrid tells Harry about Gringotts. He says it is > guarded by "spells -- enchantments", with dragons guarding the high- > security vaults. As Bill is a curse-breaker and Charlie is a dragon > specialist, are the Weaseys going to break into Gringotts in a > future book? * Weasley corruption? Aaaaaack! It's possible, but I'd like to drop in another possibility: that they have to *break out*. Perhaps they (along with Harry and who knows who else) are locked into a high- security vault by some Big Bad (Voldy or a lackey) and they must escape. Ahh, curiouser & curiouser.... *** Arabella Figg: Fabulous postings & predictions by many: * Loved reading all the possibilities for Ms. Figg - my mind is reeling! I'm hoping for a resolution to the cabbage smell and her collection of cats in her "muggle" home. And I'd like to see her as Dumbledore's "lost" paramour. *** Susanna/pigwidgeon37's fab essay: * Couldn't resist reading it on an empty stomach! Will weep softly for the two weeks I must endure a low-iodine diet. Then it's pumpkin pasties a go-go! P.S. - I think that the Fat Lady probably nicked the liquors from some sort of still life that is hanging in Hogwarts, but I like Joywitch's idea of a new picture from Dean much better. *** Many interesting musings on Butterbeer: * Marachino cherries have an alcohol content (remembering an episode of Family Ties where Tom Hanks drinks a jar of 'em), as does vanilla extract. I've thought that butterbeer has some vague alcohol content similar to that, which would affect house-elves, but not necessarily humans. - Denise, S.A.D (pending), C.R.A.B., and Never-L.O.O.N. (who now has visions of sloshed house-elves on baking day playing through her mind) From mirzamblack at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 16:37:55 2001 From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:37:55 -0000 Subject: Bill's age (WAS Weasleys ages) Message-ID: <9r9f53+f57o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28206 In GoF Bill tells Harry that he hasn't visited Hogwarts since 5 years ago. At that time there was three Weasleys in Hogwarts, Fred, George and Percy. Charlie's last year at Hogwarts was 1984-85, 11 years before Triwizardtournament. It is said that Bill is Ron's big brother, but it isn't said that he would be elder than Charlie. OK, and the point is: Could all this mean, that Bill's last year at Hogwarts was 1989-90? I just wonder why he says this thing, what happend 5 years ago, if it wasn't his last schoolyear? So what do you think? __________________________________________ http://pub33.ezboard.com/bfinfanfun http://sivut.koti.soon.fi/htakala/mansikka From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 16:52:55 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:52:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More in the Lockhart Casting Saga Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28207 >From: John Walton > >http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ > >reports that Variety says that Kenneth Branagh is going to be playing >Lockhart. Huzzah! He'll be very good. The question is, who will Emma >Thompson be playing? ::smirk:: Kenneth Branagh? *swoons and falls into a dead faint* I cannot BELIEVE I didn't think of him to play Lockhart. Ever since I saw "Much Ado About Nothing", I've been over the moon about him. Mr. Branagh is absolutely brilliant, IMO. He can DEFINITELY pull off a wonderful Lockhart. Oh dear, do you think this will sway my previous ambivalence about Lockhart's character? I think it just might... Now I cannot wait for the COS movie to come out. Just to see Kenneth... *sighs* And the first one hasn't even been released yet! *sobs* Approximately 21 days, 12 hours, 9 minutes, and 44 seconds until the 16th, EST. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Shadow-Lover, you alone can know How I long to reach a point of peace How I fade with weariness and woe How I long for you to bring release..." - "Shadow Lover" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Thu Oct 25 17:23:54 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:23:54 -0000 Subject: Bill's age (WAS Weasleys ages) In-Reply-To: <9r9f53+f57o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r9hra+p3h7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28208 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > > In GoF Bill tells Harry that he hasn't visited Hogwarts since 5 years > ago. At that time there was three Weasleys in Hogwarts, Fred, George > and Percy. Charlie's last year at Hogwarts was 1984-85, 11 years > before Triwizardtournament. It is said that Bill is Ron's big > brother, but it isn't said that he would be elder than Charlie. OK, > and the point is: > > Could all this mean, that Bill's last year at Hogwarts was 1989-90? I > just wonder why he says this thing, what happend 5 years ago, if it > wasn't his last schoolyear? > > So what do you think? > Hmmm. Well, I always assumed Bill was older than Charlie and graduated first, but now that you mention it, I can't find anything that explicitly says this. In GoF, when Bill and Charlie are introduced, we aren't told who is older. Darn, I can't find my PS/SS. Is there a reference in there that proves Bill is older? I can't think of anything. If Charlie is the oldest, that would help close the 8-year Weasley childbearing gap we talked about the other day. Cindy From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Oct 25 18:06:53 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:06:53 -0500 Subject: Weasley's Ages -- Ginny's Maturity References: <9r9hra+p3h7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BD854BD.6030902@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28209 Hi -- I'm typing quickly as naptime is about to end Cindy C. wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > > > > In GoF Bill tells Harry that he hasn't visited Hogwarts since 5 > years > > ago. At that time there was three Weasleys in Hogwarts, Fred, > George > > and Percy. Charlie's last year at Hogwarts was 1984-85, 11 years > > before Triwizardtournament. It is said that Bill is Ron's big > > brother, but it isn't said that he would be elder than Charlie. OK, > > and the point is: Actually, Bill is the eldest Weasley. In PoA, the Daily Prophet clipping talking about Arthur Weasley winning the money that takes them to Egypt, Arthur describes Bill as their eldest son. > > > > Could all this mean, that Bill's last year at Hogwarts was 1989-90? > I just wonder why he says this thing, what happend 5 years ago, if it > > wasn't his last schoolyear? It might mean that he graduated 5 years ago. But, since this inconsistent with everything else which seems to point toward a large age gap between Charlie & Percy, I tend to think that Bill was at Hogwarts 5 years ago (1989-90) for some other reason. Maybe to attend an alumni event or watch a Quidditch match or apply for a job or visit one of his siblings. He's there in 1995 to watch the Triwizard Tournament, not as a student. He might go back in 2000 & say he hadn't seen Hogwarts in 5 years. That statement would not, in that case, indicate he'd been a student in 1995. GINNY'S MATURITY -- I wrote a long post about this awhile back. See Message #21306 Penny (crying baby ... running.....) From mirzamblack at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 18:42:11 2001 From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:42:11 -0000 Subject: Bill's age (WAS Weasleys ages) In-Reply-To: <9r9hra+p3h7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9r9me3+jjgc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28210 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > > > > In GoF Bill tells Harry that he hasn't visited Hogwarts since 5 > years > > ago. At that time there was three Weasleys in Hogwarts, Fred, > George > > and Percy. Charlie's last year at Hogwarts was 1984-85, 11 years > > before Triwizardtournament. It is said that Bill is Ron's big > > brother, but it isn't said that he would be elder than Charlie. OK, > > and the point is: > > > > Could all this mean, that Bill's last year at Hogwarts was 1989- 90? > I > > just wonder why he says this thing, what happend 5 years ago, if it > > wasn't his last schoolyear? > > > > So what do you think? > > > > > Hmmm. Well, I always assumed Bill was older than Charlie and > graduated first, but now that you mention it, I can't find anything > that explicitly says this. In GoF, when Bill and Charlie are > introduced, we aren't told who is older. > > Darn, I can't find my PS/SS. Is there a reference in there that > proves Bill is older? I can't think of anything. If Charlie is the > oldest, that would help close the 8-year Weasley childbearing gap we > talked about the other day. > Argh. No I'm disappointed in my self, because I did not remember this journey to Egypt.. In PoA Ron send a newpaper about this journey and there is said that Weasley's oldest son works in Egypt.. How on earth I missed that..? OK, new one. I once thought that Charlie and Bill could be twins as well as Fred and George.. But hey, why Bill was in Hogwarts 5 years ago? //Mirzam again From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 19:44:48 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:44:48 -0000 Subject: HP Structure Idea Message-ID: <9r9q3g+qcr4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28211 In this posting, I am going to use the terms HP1, HP2, HP3 and HP4 to signify SS/PS, CoS, PoA, and GoF. The reason will become evident, I hope. In a traditional 3-act play, the first act introduces us to the characters and their situation. The second act puts them into a tough situation. The third act resolves the problem. Think of the original "Star Wars" trilogy as a prime example. With that in mind, look at the four HP books so far. HP1, HP2, and HP3 are definitely first act. Their main purpose is to introduce us to new characters and the HP universe. However, the main conflict begins to take shape in HP3 with Trelawney's prediction and the escape of Wormtail. Thus HP3 is not wholely first act but begins the transition to the second act. This transition continues with HP4. We are still being introduced to people and facets of the HP universe, but by the end of HP4 we are fully into act two. Act one is fully ended since we now have been introduced to Voldemort and his Death-eaters. I suspect that in HP5, we are going deeper into the second act. We will learn more about the main conflict other than just the main characters. HP6 will continue, but start the transition to the third act. By the end of HP6, we will start to see the light at the end of the tunnel, but it will be very dim. HP7 will finally finish the third act. This is why JKR states it is likely going to be the longest book of all. Perhaps this helps explain why many people feel HP2 is the weakest book. HP1 is all introduction. We meet many people and we learn many facts -- clearly first act. HP3 introduces us to Sirius, Remus, Wormtail, and much more -- clearly first act. What does HP2 do? Well, it introduces us to Lockhart, who promptly leaves the scene. We do learn a few important things about the universe but little else. The rest of the books introduce us to important characters and important facts. HP2 confines itself to important facts. Therefore, it is less satisfying. Not necessarily bad, just less satisfying. It is less strong when compared to the other first act books. Marcus From monica.coyne at tesco.net Thu Oct 25 20:51:01 2001 From: monica.coyne at tesco.net (Monica Coyne) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:51:01 +0100 Subject: consent laws in the UK References: <1004039096.2652.51892.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001101c15d96$dccd3c80$daedfea9@onair> No: HPFGUIDX 28212 > 18: can consent to male homosexual sex (no age for female homosexual > sex), can buy alcohol, can get married,can vote. > The homosexual age of consent was lowered to 16 after the European Court ruling a couple of years ago. Not that it's likely to crop up in book 5 but you never know. From doseylel at aol.com Thu Oct 25 21:43:54 2001 From: doseylel at aol.com (doseylel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:43:54 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape like Malfoy? In-Reply-To: <9r9e60+h82b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ra12q+i6o9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28213 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > > > Sara suggested: > > > > < > sure that Snape is really good. It has been said that he returned > to > > the good side and became a spy for Dumbledore at great personal > risk > > to himself, but some of his actions have been puzzling if he really > > is on the good side. Another thing I've just thought of is, there's > a > > possiblity that Lucius didn't know Snape was spying while he was a > > Death Eater, and by giving Draco a frosty reception Lucius' > > suspicions could be raised as I would imagine Draco would be the > > first to send an owl home slagging off anyone that wasn't nice to > > him.>> > > > Blaise wrote: > > > I agree with most of these ideas. The question of why Snape likes > > Malfoy so much has puzzled me on numerous occasions. > > > > I would support Sara's suggestion that > > Snape wants to keep his Death Eater street-cred by favouring the > > child of a presumably powerful Death Eater. > > > I would add that Snape has to give the impression to Draco that Snape > is in Voldemort's camp. We know from Karkarov's testimony in the > Pensieve that Snape has been successful at cultivating an image of > being a DE spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Karkarov tries to win > release by revealing a Big Secret that Snape is a DE. That suggests > that Karkarov (and possibly other DEs and Voldemort) used to believe > that Snape was spying for the Dark side. Karkarov's attempts to call > Snape's attention to the mark on his arm suggests that, 15 years > later, Karkarov still believes Snape is a DE spy for Voldemort. So > if Snape were openly hostile to Draco, that would be inconsistent > with his attempt to present himself to Voldemort as spying for > Voldemort, although he's really spying for Dumbledore. > > Cindy (who wonders how Snape can keep all of this straight I agree with all of the above, but also wonder if Lucius might be the same age as Snape and the Marauders, attending Hogwarts with them. Might they have some ties that go back to their school days? Leslie From joym999 at aol.com Thu Oct 25 21:56:03 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:56:03 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #17 -- Last Chance Message-ID: <9ra1pj+rlcj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28214 This is your last chance to enter this week's contest. Please email me your entries by noon EST, tomorrow, Friday Oct. 26. For this week's contest, you are being asked to help the moderators with a vexing little dilemma. As you know, and are perhaps confused by, HP4GU has a plethora of files for your amusement and edification: the Very Frequently Asked Questions (VFAQs), the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs), the Netiquette file, the list of abbreviations, etc., etc., etc. All of which you've read, right? The most fascinating of these files, as all good HP4GU members know, is what is currently called the FAQ file, which is a very long collection of essays, located at the Harry Potter Lexicon site run by list-member and L.O.O.N. spiritual leader Steve Vander Ark. It is highly recommended that, if you are not familiar with these wonderful FAQ files, that you wander over to http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/ and spend some time browsing. Now, we all know that FAQ stands for "Frequently Asked Questions." However, these files have evolved into something much more than just questions about HP that are asked a lot. Plus, people tend to confuse "VFAQ" with "FAQ." So, it has been decided that we need to rename the FAQ files. This is where YOU come in -- what do YOU think these files should be called? Here are some, mostly lame, suggestions: - The Pensieve (or The HP4GU Pensieve) - The Very Large File Full of Harry Potter Speculation from HP4GU - The Official League Of Obsessed Nitpickers' Guide to Harry Potter - Substantive Topical Essays - Frequently Discussed Topics Do you like any of these titles? If so, why? Do you have a better suggestion for what we should rename the FAQs? (Please tell me that someone does.) Please let me know what you think, by email to HP4GUCon at aol.com or to the above address (save your message and resend it if you don't receive an acknowledgment from me.) If you come up with a new name that all of our esteemed Moderators like, a plaque with your name on it will be installed in the entrance to the Renamed FAQ Gallery, which will of course continue to be located at the world-famous Harry Potter Lexicon facility, which itself is housed in a large castle at an undisclosed and unplottable site near Roswell, New Mexico. (We'd let you visit, but we'd have to perform a memory charm on you afterwards, but rest assured that the plaque will be there.) ?Joywitch From john at walton.vu Thu Oct 25 22:39:37 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:39:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] consent laws in the UK In-Reply-To: <001101c15d96$dccd3c80$daedfea9@onair> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28215 Monica Coyne wrote: > The homosexual age of consent was lowered to 16 after the European Court > ruling a couple of years ago. Not that it's likely to crop up in book 5 but > you never know. Not quite. :( In the UK there's the House of Lords, a completely unelected and generally conservative (small "c") chamber of the legislature who have the power to scupper legislature which they don't like*. This they did with the age of consent equalisation laws. * They can't "veto" a law like the US President, but they can send it back to the House of Commons (the one with the Prime Minister and Cabinet). With the election called earlier this year, there wasn't enough Parliamentary time to reintroduce the law and force it through using the Parliament Act. Moreover, even if the legal age for homosexuals were 16, the reaction from certain sectors of society (particularly American society) would be vitriolic at best. --John ____________________________________________ "It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." --Albus Dumbledore John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From littlepooh599 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 22:53:05 2001 From: littlepooh599 at yahoo.com (littlepooh599 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:53:05 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised Message-ID: <9ra54h+jfi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28216 I've been lurking for awhile and finally decided to post. I have a Question regarding when Harry sees his family in the mirror of Erised. Lily is crying when harry sees her "crying;smiling,but crying at the same time" it says. Are we to assume that where ever his parents are now , they were able to see him too through the mirror? Or is this just Harry's DESIRE that his parnets be really happy to see him? I'm really curious to see how they handle this scene in the movie. I also think this mirror might return again in future books.What does everybody think? From alexp at alltel.net Thu Oct 25 22:57:08 2001 From: alexp at alltel.net (alexp at alltel.net) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:57:08 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix, Alchemist's Cell, Pyramids of Furmat, and Chariotsof Light Message-ID: <9ra5c4+vdel@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28217 The last three titles were registered by WB in the UK in February 2000. In September, OotP was announced. Any speculations on the titles? (Personally, I think Chariots of Light is 7, and Harry Dies.) Alex 92% obsessed Many other acronyms to be posted at a later date. From doseylel at aol.com Thu Oct 25 22:58:11 2001 From: doseylel at aol.com (doseylel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:58:11 -0000 Subject: Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: <9ra54h+jfi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ra5e3+7mc5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28218 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., littlepooh599 at y... wrote: > I've been lurking for awhile and finally decided to post. > I have a Question regarding when Harry sees his family in the mirror > of Erised. Lily is crying when harry sees her "crying;smiling,but > crying at the same time" it says. Are we to assume that where ever > his parents are now , they were able to see him too through the > mirror? Or is this just Harry's DESIRE that his parnets be really > happy to see him? I'm really curious to see how they handle this > scene in the movie. I also think this mirror might return again in > future books.What does everybody think? There have been discussions here about the mirror being destroyed in the movie, while nobody remembers it being destroyed in the book. I'm curious to see what happens in the movie. Leslie From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Oct 25 23:17:09 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:17:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix, Alchemist's Cell, Pyramids of Furmat, and Chariotsof Light In-Reply-To: <9ra5c4+vdel@eGroups.com> References: <9ra5c4+vdel@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4493245462.20011025161709@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28219 Thursday, October 25, 2001, 3:57:08 PM, alexp at alltel.net wrote: aan> The last three titles were registered by WB in the UK in February aan> 2000. In September, OotP was announced. Any speculations on the aan> titles? (Personally, I think Chariots of Light is 7, and Harry Dies.) This is just a crazy, off-the-cuff speculation: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (Year 5): Harry has to help stop Voldy from gaining his old power while taking his OWL's... Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat (Year 6): Harry spends the summer with Bill in Egypt and discovers some magical relic in a pyramid that he takes back to Hogwarts and causes a lot of trouble... Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell (Year 7): Dumbledore gets sacked, Harry gets expelled from Hogwarts by Headmaster Malfoy, and Harry is sent to Azkaban where he finds some weird things in his cell, which was once occupied by a famous alchemist (Flamel??), which become useful against the DE's... Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light (Year 7 1/2): Newly reinstated at Hogwarts, Harry must finish his final year, take his NEWT's, cope with Dumbledire's recent death, and have his final showdown with V... (Yes, I believe there will actually be *eight* books in all!) -- Dave From nicola_isham at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 25 23:24:34 2001 From: nicola_isham at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Nicola=20Isham?=) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:24:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Subject: Re: Butterbeer In-Reply-To: <1003982478.2251.64289.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20011025232434.90152.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28220 Yip. Shandy can be lager or bitter mixed with lemonade or (and I prefer this) lager or bitter mixed with ginger beer (yum). I guess the most common is the lemonade and lager but its not nearly as nice as bitter and ginger beer! with respect to butterbeer, i rather imagined it as a variation on ginger beer but there's absolutely no basis for this, just my imagination! nic >Message: 24 > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:41:35 -0000 > From: conshydot at email.com >Subject: Re: Butterbeer >Isn't there a drink in Britain called "shandy"? >I remember it as a mixture of beer and lemonade. It >really was good. >and, if I remember it correctly, rather refreshing >after a long walk >in the Lake district. >I always imagined butterbeer to be like the shandy I >remember. ____________________________________________________________ Nokia Game is on again. Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Oct 25 23:23:50 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:23:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] consent laws in the UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11393646516.20011025162350@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28221 Thursday, October 25, 2001, 3:39:37 PM, John Walton wrote: JW> ... there wasn't enough Parliamentary JW> time to reintroduce the law and force it through using JW> the Parliament Act. What's the Parliament Act? -- Dave From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 26 00:06:36 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:06:36 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix, Alchemist's Cell, Pyramids of Furmat, and Chariotsof Light In-Reply-To: <4493245462.20011025161709@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9ra9ec+m5lb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28223 Dave wrote: > > This is just a crazy, off-the-cuff speculation: > > Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (Year 5): Harry has to > help stop Voldy from gaining his old power while taking his OWL's... > > Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat (Year 6): Harry spends the summer > with Bill in Egypt and discovers some magical relic in a pyramid > that he takes back to Hogwarts and causes a lot of trouble... > > Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell (Year 7): Dumbledore gets > sacked, Harry gets expelled from Hogwarts by Headmaster Malfoy, > and Harry is sent to Azkaban where he finds some weird things > in his cell, which was once occupied by a famous alchemist > (Flamel??), which become useful against the DE's... > > Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light (Year 7 1/2): Newly > reinstated at Hogwarts, Harry must finish his final year, > take his NEWT's, cope with Dumbledire's recent death, and > have his final showdown with V... > OK, I'll have a go: HP and the Order of the Phoenix (Year 5): Harry takes his O.W.L.S, plays Quiddich. Dumbledore gets fired, and a few of the staff leave with him. Except Snape, and Trelawney, under headmaster Malfoy. McNair the Executioner teaches CoMC. DADA teacher is Mrs. Lestrange, and her curriculum is light on the "Defense" part of DADA. Arthur Weasley does some serious time in Azkaban. No direct Harry/Voldemort confrontation, but we are distracted by lots of death and upheaval. Bagman and Karkarov's deaths are especially gruesome. No shipping is allowed. HP and the Alchemist's Cell (Year 6). Fudge is assassinated, and Malfoy becomes Minister of Magic. Sirius is captured. He is at Azkaban, and held in the Alchemist's Cell, which is the cell for the worst prisoners, even by Azkaban standards. Harry, Lupin and Dumbledore fail to rescue Sirius before Sirius gets his soul sucked out. Ending is a real downer, as Dumbledore is also killed, and Harry keeps Fawkes as a pet. Dumbledore is transported to the wizard graveyard in the Chariot of Light. Everyone is much too busy and upset to think about Shipping. HP and the Pyramid of Furmat (Year 7). Bill and Charlie team up with Harry to steal some wicked Egyptian Super-Curse from Gringotts, neatly avoiding the dragons and curses that protect it. Voldemort learns of the Super-Curse and races them there, using his inept team headed by Wormtail. Lupin tries to hold Voldemort off, meeting the same demise as James. Just as Voldemort gets there, Wormtail decides he has had just about enough of all of this abuse from Voldemort and attacks Voldemort with his snazzy silver hand. Voldemort is rather peeved at this, and kills Wormtail. In the commotion, Harry gets the Super-Curse, and shows no hesitation in blasting Voldemort to bits. Everyone is so worn out that they decline all Shipping opportunities. Cindy From caliburncy at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 00:23:37 2001 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:23:37 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix, Alchemist's Cell, Pyramids of Furmat, and Chariotsof Light In-Reply-To: <9ra5c4+vdel@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9raae9+oitp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28224 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., alexp at a... wrote: > The last three titles were registered by WB in the UK in February > 2000. In September, OotP was announced. Any speculations on the > titles? The first time this was brought up was Message 25214, so you can check it and all it's replies for some speculation on the titles. To be honest, there's not much--this really is due for some heavier speculation. I could swear that I had replied to this the first time it was brought up, but I can't find a reply by me, so I guess I didn't. Anyway, there are four possibilities that I can think of: 1) They are "red herring" titles cooked up by some members of the marketing dept. at WB who apparently have no life whatsoever. 2) As Kelly Hurt first mentioned, they are the pending titles for some non-canon HP merchandise (board games, picture books, video games, etc.) The only thing that makes this less likely, IMO, is that, although I know very little about the HP merchandise (nor do I want to), most of the titles I have seen do not seem as "original" as these are. Meaning the existing games center around things that are already central in canon like Quidditch or "Mystery at Hogwarts" (which, if memory serves, is the name of one of the board games). So it would be strange, to say the least, for them to create a board game or other merchandising element that heavily involved Egypt (i.e. Pyramids of Furmat) when Egypt has thus far played a relatively small role in the books. 3) They are genuine pending (emphasis on pending) titles for future books. This means at least one book has two titles heavily under consideration (even book five is a possibility here--as Order of the Phoenix could be replaced). In that case, it would be my guess that the two titles for one book are Pyramids of Furmat and Chariots of Light, simply because both could easily involve ancient Egypt, and hence, be present in the same story. Under that assumption I would make those the pending titles of book six, with Alchemist's Cell the pending title for seven. My reason for this is that, as I have previously stated, I have a sneaking suspicion that book six may be more "tangential" like POA was (even though like POA it will somehow have indirect consequences on the larger conflict at hand with Voldemort), and therefore it makes some sense for this to take place partly in Egypt. I somehow can't imagine the final showdown of book seven taking place anywhere outside Europe. 4) Any combination of the above (meaning just because title A is genuine canon, doesn't mean title B has to be) *** Of course, as always, what this ultimately means is we have to take these titles as pure rumor. So I am not really making them big factors in my speculation about books five, six, or seven. But when one is given so few hints, one works with what one has. -Luke From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Oct 26 00:57:28 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:57:28 -0000 Subject: Shippers and Non-Shippers In-Reply-To: <9r6tca+o8a4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9racdo+10d38@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28225 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > I agree with Penny; I'm not sure where the idea of "forcing down our throats" originated in regard to romance. JKR has, IMO, been > beautifully subtle with what she's written so far, and I > have no reason to believe that she'll do likewise in coming novels. I also agree with Penny in that it would be unrealistic to avoid some > aspect of romance; this is part of growing up, regardless of whether your first date comes at 14 or 10 years later. > As to the original thread on shipping, I don't support the notion of Ron and Hermione potentially being in a relationship simply because I like the pairing; I support this theory because I interpret that this is where JKR is going in canon (yes, Ron obviously likes Hermione, but I believe it's also there that Hermione likes Ron back). If JKR decides not to go in this direction, far be it from me to criticize my favorite author - although I would expect to see some sort of explanation as to what I would perceive as a characterization switch in her future writings. Yes, to all of the above. I honestly don't care which of the students falls for/has a crush on/moons over who...but I think it must be acknowledged that JKR has already set us up for some sort of R/Hr interaction. I think she is perfectly capable of exploring this in several ways - either as a puppy love - first crush sort of thing that flares briefly and dies a natural death or as a sudden hormonal tidal wave that may or may not be a good thing for one or both of the characters, but that they will have to deal with. And I have complete faith that JKR will be able to work this into the greater plot of Dark Magic vs. Light Magic. To be quite frank, I'm waiting for a scene in which the following happens. The Trio meets up with Sirius for a talk about food/Voldemort/Snape/Slytherins/Who Knows What. Sirius has been living at Remus' and has had regular meals, and access to regular ablutions. Hermione, in all innocence, remarks to the boys, "Sirius certainly looks good, doesn't he?" Ron goes crazy. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Oct 26 01:51:34 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:51:34 -0000 Subject: Yearbooks/Harry Potter TV series Message-ID: <9rafj6+sgad@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28226 Okay, everyone calm down - there is no Harry Potter TV series that I know of. I only put that as a subject because a friend of mine suggested it. I wonder what others think. My friend, who has not read any of the Potter books and really has no interest in doing so (I'm doing the best I can to browbeat her into the realization that she is depriving herself of Nirvava) wonders why JKR opted for a movie instead of a TV series. Yes, a movie is BIG, SPLASHY, ATTENTION-GRABBING, and worth a lot of $$$....but my friend's thought centered on the Star Trek phenonenom. She thought "Why not run the Potter books as a serial TV program? The producers could do a chapter a week/a book a season and not run into the problem of having the child actors grow up too fast. Plus, like Star Trek, there would be the syndication possibilities. Harry could run forever on TV. Any thoughts? Yearbooks - do schools in the UK have yearbooks? In the US, high schools (grades 9-12) have books that record the events of the year. Usually, there are individual head shots of the seniors/graduating class, plus group shots of the lower grades. Plus, there is information provided on sports teams, clubs - drama, debate, chess, French, Spanish etc. and various photos of daily school life. Granted the norm in the US is that students go to a local school until the time that they go to university. Most do not go to a boarding school, like Hogwarts. We haven't seen any evidence that Hogwarts school yearbooks exist. I think that this could be a handy method for JKR to impart some information to us about the MWPP era if Harry should stumble across yearbooks of his parents generation. Who is in what house? What students got the best grades? Who is on the various Quidditch teams? Where did James/Severus/SiriusLily/Remus fall on the academic ladder in relation to each other? Was Sirius on a Quidditch team, only to be replaced sometime in his sixth year - which would correspond to the time of the send-Snape-to-discover-Remus-the-werewolf prank. Anyway, I think a yearbook would be a handy device to reveal past happenings and could direct Harry to some rather pointed questions. Marianne From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 02:04:17 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:04:17 -0000 Subject: consent laws in the UK (Hermione's age again!) In-Reply-To: <9r998j+aoeo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ragb1+3ku7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28227 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote about the UK consent laws: > So in September of book five Hermione could start smoking, she could buy butterbeer if she was eating, she could get married if she wanted to etc but Harry and ron couldn't until later in the year. I hope I've cleared this up. > Or in September of book six, for those of us who think she was born in 1980. :-D --Ebony, who thinks that no one considered a 1979 birthdate for Hermione before JKR confirmed her birthday AFTER the release of GoF From broken at pixicore.org Fri Oct 26 02:07:39 2001 From: broken at pixicore.org (Keiichi Morisato) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:07:39 -0000 Subject: Acronyms and HPfGU code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9raghb+6gnf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28228 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > Joywitch M. Curmudgeon wrote: > > >> Cindy wrote: > >>> P.I.N.E. = Percy. Is. Not. Evil. > >>> C.R.A.B. = Cut Ron A Break. > >>> S.S.H.I.A.B.B. = Stop Saying Hermione Is A Bossy Braggard. > >>> L.O.O.N. = League Of Obsessed Nitpickers. > >>> S.A.D. = Society of Apologists for the Director. > >>> Canonite = Someone interested in canon rather than OT chatter. > >> > >> L.I.G.H.T.R.E.L.I.E.F. = Lockhart is Genuinely Hilarious Territory: > > a > >> Really Entertaining Loser, If Evil Fellow > >> L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P = Love Of Lily Left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus > >> (previously suggested) F.O.P.F. = Fans of Padfoot > >> (my suggestion for Lupin-group) G.O.R.E. = Group of Remus > > Enthusiasts > > > > And don't forget my group, even though I may be the only member: > > > > S.U.A.V.E. (Snape's Unquestionably A Vampire Evil) > > > > Joywitch, who admits to starting this insanity with her invention of > > L.O.O.N. > > Oh, and: > > R.I.O.T.G.E.A.R. -- Ron Is Obviously a Thick Gargoyle, Especially At > Relationships > > L.O.O.N.I.E.S.T. -- League Of Obsessed Nitpickers In Eastern Seaboard Towns. > President Rock A. Hardslab. *delurks* After an inspirational epiphany: S.O.C.K. -- Superbly (extra) Ordinary Clothing Knitters. *relurks* From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 02:12:40 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:12:40 -0000 Subject: Bertie's Beans (filk)--(with MERCH) In-Reply-To: <9r9dnq+aldm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ragqo+55p1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28229 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > Bertie's Beans > > (To the tune of Let it Be) > > Dedicated to Ebony Ah, Caius! Thanks--and it was all Harry, all the time! :-D On another, related note, I don't see how the Hogwarts kids can eat BBEFB's. I think it's more of a game than a culinary experience for them. When they came out earlier this year, I started to try a bag until the girl at the Borders' cafe said that there were actually booger-flavored ones... and those were her favorites. --Ebony AKA AngieJ From pretzelgirl133 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 02:18:58 2001 From: pretzelgirl133 at yahoo.com (Jilly) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why does Snape like Malfoy? In-Reply-To: <9ra12q+i6o9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011026021858.39058.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28230 ::raises hand:: Leslie wrote: <> Many people, in fanfic, have Lucius at Hogwarts (a few years older, usually) at the same time as the Marauders. I personally disagree with this, and one point against it is in GoF, where Sirius is ticking off the DE's that Snape hung around with, he doesn't mention Lucius. That's not exactly concrete, but we don't really know what kind of age range there is for the Death Eaters. I always kind of thought that Lucius and Arthur Weasley were at Hogwarts together though, which might also add to their Ron/Draco-type hostilty towards each other. Side note: About the Hermione-age thing (which I am having trouble getting), so the birthday money she uses to buy Crookshanks at the begining of PoA, was that for her 13th or 14th birthday? Jill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 02:45:15 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:45:15 -0000 Subject: Ginny's maturity (WAS Ginny inconsistancy?) In-Reply-To: <9r9di1+tj04@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rainr+pmo6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28231 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > > I know this has nothing to do with the original thread for this topic but I'll ask you this now anyway. Did anyone else get the > impression from Ginny's behaviour in PS/SS that she was a lot younger than ten? I thought maybe she was 6/7 and then CoS came out and I read it and i was thinking 'what Ginny's 11? She can't be'. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > I hadn't thought about this, but you raise a good point. If Ginny is 10 in PS/SS, then she is quite a bit different than the 10-year- old girls I know, even the shy ones. The ones I know would never hide behind their mothers, and they tend to roll their eyes a fair amount, all in pursuit of the most important of all life goals -- looking cool. Perhaps British 10-year-old girls are different? > *snerk* Not the ones I spent mornings and afternoons this summer chatting with in and around Oxfordshire. The #1 shock I had this summer is that the kids I met in England were much, much more like our kids here than they were different. I am sure they'd all get along just fine. I've found that I love teaching kids in grades 5-9, and can usually guess a kid's age in the 9-to-14 age bracket pretty accurately. (It's fun chatting with moms and kids in the doctor's office, at the grocery store, or at the mall... "Let me guess, you're ten." "HOW did you know?" "I teach middle school." "Oh.") And Ginny is PS is NOT ten. Not in the UK, not in the US, not in the Third World (where ten is actually older in many ways than in Westernized cultures). EVERYONE notices how young Ginny is in Book One. One of my students is reading the books right now, and that was one of the *first* things she said about PS. Which brings to mind a thought--is Gin's age or the fact that she's going to Hogwarts the next year ever mentioned in PS/SS? I can't remember that it was. I wonder if JKR introduced Gin in CoS not necessarily to foreshadow the fact that she's going to be the love interest, but because she needed someone to open the Chamber? Penny's already plugged it, but go to the archives and read her message on this subject--#21306. Great stuff. --Ebony (who missed teaching adolescents so much that she swapped her snarky junior classes for silly freshmen last week when the quarter ended... and is now enjoying her job again) From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Oct 26 05:08:48 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:08:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]Book titles (was: Order of the Phoenix, Alchemist's Cell, Pyramids of Furmat, and Chariotsof Light) In-Reply-To: <9ra5c4+vdel@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011026050848.57302.qmail@web14708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28232 To say the truth, I shuddered when I read those titles- may I say that I find them incredibly -cheap? What I found so brilliant (among many other things) about book 4 was the choice of title! A title that doesn't give away anything, as f.ex. "HP and the Triwizard Tournament" would have done. I fully recognize that it's not easy to come up with such a title, but, to say it in Mrs. Weasley's words, woe betide JKR if she is really considering "HP and the Pyramids of Doormat, sorry, Furmat". Susanna/pigwidgeon37 (slowly recovering from title-induced early-morning shock) alexp at alltel.net wrote: The last three titles were registered by WB in the UK in February 2000. In September, OotP was announced. Any speculations on the titles? (Personally, I think Chariots of Light is 7, and Harry Dies.) Alex 92% obsessed Many other acronyms to be posted at a later date. ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Nokia Game is on again. Click here to join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk Fri Oct 26 05:53:37 2001 From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:53:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: consent laws in the UK Message-ID: <20011026055154.96F921DDF7@postfix1.ofir.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28233 Wait a minute, did i get that one right... It is allowed to have heterosexual sex at age 14 if accompanied by an adult???? I can see that England have different laws than my native country, here such a thing is outlawed:-) Darreder >===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com ===== >Sofie wrote: > >> 16: can consent to heterosexual sex, can buy cigarettes, can get >> married with parents permision, can drink wine/lager/cider in a >> restaraunt with a meal. > >Actually, it's 14 so long as you're accompanied by an adult. > >> 17: can start learning to drive >> 18: can consent to male homosexual sex (no age for female homosexual >> sex), can buy alcohol, can get married,can vote. > >--John, who can't wait to see JKR's Hard-Drinking, Hard-Livin' Harry :D > >____________________________________________ > >Don't join the book burners. Do not think you are going to conceal thoughts >by concealing evidence that they ever existed. -Dwight D Eisenhower > >John Walton -- john at walton.vu >____________________________________________ > > > >____________________________________________________________ > >"I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. >"Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts >are open." > >You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. > >Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > >Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. > >Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >____________________________________________________________ > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ---------------------------------------------------- K?b, s?lg eller efterlys varer i det nye auktionshus p? nettet: http://www.ofir.dk/auktion K?b ind p? nettet - pr?v det p? http://www.ofir.dk/shopping F? din egen gratis email p? http://www.ofir.dk/mail From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 06:20:01 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: consent laws in the UK In-Reply-To: <20011026055154.96F921DDF7@postfix1.ofir.com> Message-ID: <20011026062001.17373.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28234 Darreder please don't panic, they are refering to drinking alcholic bevereages at resterants not sex. I promise. Danette Tim Kronsell wrote: Wait a minute, did i get that one right... It is allowed to have heterosexual sex at age 14 if accompanied by an adult???? I can see that England have different laws than my native country, here such a thing is outlawed:-) Darreder >===== Original Message From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com ===== >Sofie wrote: > >> 16: can consent to heterosexual sex, can buy cigarettes, can get >> married with parents permision, can drink wine/lager/cider in a >> restaraunt with a meal. > >Actually, it's 14 so long as you're accompanied by an adult. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kerstin8555 at yahoo.de Fri Oct 26 07:37:16 2001 From: kerstin8555 at yahoo.de (kerstin8555 at yahoo.de) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:37:16 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape like Malfoy? In-Reply-To: <20011026021858.39058.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rb3rc+plo5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28235 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jilly wrote: > ::raises hand:: > > Leslie wrote: > < Lucius might be the > same age as Snape and the Marauders, attending > Hogwarts with them. > Might they have some ties that go back to their school > days?>> > > Many people, in fanfic, have Lucius at Hogwarts (a few > years older, usually) at the same time as the > Marauders. I personally disagree with this, and one > point against it is in GoF, where Sirius is ticking > off the DE's that Snape hung around with, he doesn't > mention Lucius. That's not exactly concrete, but we > don't really know what kind of age range there is for > the Death Eaters. I always kind of thought that Lucius > and Arthur Weasley were at Hogwarts together though, > which might also add to their Ron/Draco-type hostilty > towards each other. > Could it be that Lucius was in Durmstrang together with Karkaroff. Later they meet Snape when they were DE. Kerstin > > Side note: About the Hermione-age thing (which I am > having trouble getting), so the birthday money she > uses to buy Crookshanks at the begining of PoA, was > that for her 13th or 14th birthday? > > > Jill > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com From EscagirlUK at AOL.com Fri Oct 26 09:16:58 2001 From: EscagirlUK at AOL.com (EscagirlUK at AOL.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:16:58 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: <8o4mda+tk0t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rb9ma+f0q4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28236 Frabkly, none of the chars or things in the HP books scares me, but if I had to pick it'd be the Dursley's and the giant spiders... ::blinks:: I wonder where I could get 1 of those giant spiders... Oooh, the fun I could have tormenting my granny for her homophobic nature... Mmm-hmm... From ohtoresonate at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 09:13:09 2001 From: ohtoresonate at yahoo.com (ohtoresonate at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:13:09 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter TV series In-Reply-To: <9rafj6+sgad@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rb9f5+mod8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28237 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > Okay, everyone calm down - there is no Harry Potter TV series that I > know of. I only put that as a subject because a friend of mine > < snip > wonders why JKR opted for a movie instead of a TV series. > Yes, a movie is BIG, SPLASHY, ATTENTION-GRABBING, and worth a lot of > $$$....but my friend's thought centered on the Star Trek phenonenom. > She thought "Why not run the Potter books as a serial TV program? > The producers could do a chapter a week/a book a season and not run > into the problem of having the child actors grow up too fast. Plus, > like Star Trek, there would be the syndication possibilities. Harry > could run forever on TV. > > Any thoughts? Here are some: ~ Making a TV series is arguably more time consuming than shooting a movie. Like her other fans and surely her publishers, I don't want JKR to be even more distracted from writing the rest of the books. ~ A TV series has a much leaner budget...and magic don't come cheap. Speaking of expensive special effects, how fitting that Lucas' Industrial Light & MAGIC is doing the FX work on the CoS film. To maintain the same level of craftsmanship as the $125 million film, imagine the price for each of the 30-second commercials (on US TV, the *absolute maximum* number of spots in each hour would be about 30)! ~ Since the HP books are so tightly plotted (all Flints aside) and JKR seems very committed to wrapping up Harry's adventures at Hogwarts in 7 volumes, 3 of which is yet to be publicly committed to paper and ink, starting a series before the entire arc concludes could risk the integrity of the story - you don't want to commit to anything that might contradict the books yet to be written. Come to think of it, this is true of the films too...hmm... Syndication is also more difficult with a property like this one - the episodes would make no sense if watched out of sequence. Notice that most shows that do well in syndication are situation comedies and adventures, formats that work best when each episode is relatively self-contained, unlike, say, soap operas. ~ Her opting for the movies doesn't mean she had to pick film instead of TV. If these films do well, you can bet there will indeed be a TV series, but only if it manages to further explore the mythology that JKR has set up since JKR seems pretty adamant about her creations remaining faithful. Possible...very possible! BTW, Harry already "run forever" on my car stereo...now in both Stephen Fry and Jim Dale's voices. :) OTR, back in LA from the UK and wishing she had more time at From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 09:49:51 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter TV series In-Reply-To: <9rb9f5+mod8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011026094951.21435.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28238 I know myself and my family would love it! They made The Worst Witch into a series! We loved the cable movie and the series from Canada! With all that is on tv, why not! We watch all the WB toons and R.L. Stine is back with more of his Nightmare Room Stories. We watched all of The GooseBumps on Fox Kids! We need it that HP fix! With all that goes on in the books, a movie wouldn't cover it all. Money would certainly be an issue. Once the movie has done it's run and then goes into video and dvd sales, a series could be next? It would be great! But we can wish for it anyway. Star Trek is still making money! Now there is Enterprise with Scott Bakcula (not sure on that spelling), but you make a strong point! As the saying goes, time will tell. Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Band of Merry Muggles --- ohtoresonate at yahoo.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > Okay, everyone calm down - there is no Harry > Potter TV series that I > > know of. I only put that as a subject because a > friend of mine > > < snip > wonders why JKR opted for a movie instead > of a TV series. > > Yes, a movie is BIG, SPLASHY, ATTENTION-GRABBING, > and worth a lot of > > $$$....but my friend's thought centered on the > Star Trek phenonenom. > > She thought "Why not run the Potter books as a > serial TV program? > > The producers could do a chapter a week/a book a > season and not run > > into the problem of having the child actors grow > up too fast. Plus, > > like Star Trek, there would be the syndication > possibilities. Harry > > could run forever on TV. > > > > Any thoughts? > > Here are some: > > ~ Making a TV series is arguably more time consuming > than shooting a > movie. Like her other fans and surely her > publishers, I don't want > JKR to be even more distracted from writing the rest > of the books. > > ~ A TV series has a much leaner budget...and magic > don't come cheap. > Speaking of expensive special effects, how fitting > that Lucas' > Industrial Light & MAGIC is doing the FX work on the > CoS film. > > To maintain the same level of craftsmanship as the > $125 million film, > imagine the price for each of the 30-second > commercials (on US TV, the > *absolute maximum* number of spots in each hour > would be about 30)! > > ~ Since the HP books are so tightly plotted (all > Flints aside) and JKR > seems very committed to wrapping up Harry's > adventures at Hogwarts in > 7 volumes, 3 of which is yet to be publicly > committed to paper and > ink, starting a series before the entire arc > concludes could risk the > integrity of the story - you don't want to commit to > anything that > might contradict the books yet to be written. Come > to think of it, > this is true of the films too...hmm... > > Syndication is also more difficult with a property > like this one - > the episodes would make no sense if watched out of > sequence. Notice > that most shows that do well in syndication are > situation comedies and > adventures, formats that work best when each episode > is relatively > self-contained, unlike, say, soap operas. > > ~ Her opting for the movies doesn't mean she had to > pick film instead > of TV. If these films do well, you can bet there > will indeed be a TV > series, but only if it manages to further explore > the mythology that > JKR has set up since JKR seems pretty adamant about > her creations > remaining faithful. Possible...very possible! > > BTW, Harry already "run forever" on my car > stereo...now in both > Stephen Fry and Jim Dale's voices. > > :) OTR, back in LA from the UK and wishing she had > more time at > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 26 11:08:11 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:08:11 -0000 Subject: Ginny's maturity (WAS Ginny inconsistancy?) In-Reply-To: <9r9di1+tj04@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rbg6r+kbu9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28239 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: >Perhaps British 10-year-old girls are different? As someone who was british ten-year-old girl just 7 1/2 years ago (!) I can say that we also did a lot of rolling eyes and giggling over boys etc. Maybe ginny just matured a lot over one year. > > Cindy (wondering what it might mean to be nackered) And Cindy, being 'nackered' is to be extremly tired. I forget that some english expressions never crossed over to America. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 11:55:45 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:55:45 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age again! In-Reply-To: <9ragb1+3ku7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rbj01+k6qr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28240 Ebony wrote: > --Ebony, who thinks that no one considered a 1979 birthdate for > Hermione before JKR confirmed her birthday AFTER the release of GoF ?? We knew her birthday, or near enough, in PoA. I wasn't around for the thrilling between-time (there was no between-time for me, just a brief coming up for air before diving into GoF ), but I would have thought that knowing she was born in September would be enough to make people consider the possibilities of her being born either year. No one wondered? Amy Z who swore up and down she wouldn't post on this thread ;-) From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Oct 26 12:45:54 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:45:54 -0500 Subject: Hermione's age again! References: <9rbj01+k6qr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BD95B02.7050209@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28241 Hi -- Amy Z wrote: > Ebony wrote: > > > --Ebony, who thinks that no one considered a 1979 birthdate for > > Hermione before JKR confirmed her birthday AFTER the release of GoF > > ?? We knew her birthday, or near enough, in PoA. I wasn't around for > the thrilling between-time (there was no between-time for me, just a > brief coming up for air before diving into GoF ), but I would have > thought that knowing she was born in September would be enough to make > people consider the possibilities of her being born either year. No > one wondered? Actually, I think Ebony's right. I don't think it was ever debated or considered a potential issue until JKR gave the exact date. You're right that we knew it was in Sept from PoA, Amy, but my recollection is that this whole 1979/1980 debate came up after that chat where JKR said it was Sept 19th. I think this might be because while people had the nebulous idea that her birthday was in Sept, Sept 19th is pretty far into the month & therefore, if there were a Sept 1st cut-off, the 19th is a good ways away from that. Suddenly the whole "Sept 1st cutoff date" made people wonder: is Hermione 2 mths younger or 10 mths older than Harry? I'm going to pick up a bit on what David Frankis said the other day in his brilliant post about how our subconscious forms solid opinions about various things as we read. We had a Sept 1st cutoff date in Texas when I was growing up anyway, and my Nov birthday made me one of the "older" kids in the school year. But, somehow, when we learned her birthday was in Sept in PoA, I didn't even consider that Hermione was one of the "older" kids of Harry's year. I had somehow already formed the opinion that she would not be 10 mths older than him. Why this is I cannot say. She is more mature than either boy IMO, despite her social ineptness at the beginning of PS/SS. But, girls do mature faster than boys in general. I'm not sure I can point to anything specific that made me think: "Aha, Hermione is a bit younger than Harry & Ron." It's just a general opinion I suppose. OR, it may have to do with the JRK chat from Feb 2000 that describes the magical quill recording the name of every magical child born & that McGonagall sends a Hogwarts letter to those turning 11. I think I interpreted that as *calendar* year. Harry received letters *before* his 11th birthday, so I don't think it's correct to say that a child must have turned 11 in order to receive the Hogwarts letter (& that each 11 yr old receives a letter as he/she turns 11 from Sept 1st through Aug 31st). It is, however, possible to think that maybe *all* students who turned or will turn 11 from the previous Sept through the current Aug 31st receive a Hogwarts letter in July. Especially muggle-born students might need a little time to persuade their families after all! So maybe July is when *all* the letters get sent out, even though some of the July/Aug students haven't yet turned 11. Would Hermione have gone through her entire last year of primary school knowing she was going to Hogwarts the next year (assuming a 1979 birthday)? My guess is no -- they wouldn't want the muggle-borns to have that knowledge for *that* long, would they? My guess is there would need to be a balance between giving the muggle-borns enough notice to persuade their families & adjust to the idea and not giving the muggle-borns the knowledge for too long (although I suppose they could memory charm them if the kid seemed likely to spill the beans to all the muggles at his primary school). Anyway ... this is a long way of saying that while I have no hard evidence to support my position, my instinct is that Hermione was born in 1980. Given that I was an older kid myself, I don't know why or how I came to that conclusion other than my interpretation of the "year" reference by JKR is a calendar-year interpretation for some reason. Penny From SALeathem at aol.com Fri Oct 26 13:47:50 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:47:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yearbooks/Harry Potter TV series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28242 In a message dated 26/10/2001 02:53:07 GMT Daylight Time, Zarleycat at aol.com writes: << Yearbooks - do schools in the UK have yearbooks? >> No. It's not a common thing. My school had one made up for my final year (7th Form/Year 13, Sept 1999 - June 2000), and that was for our year only and it was initiated by people in my year. They came up with the idea, they carried it out, but what happened to the books I don't know, cos I never saw a finished article. Not that I have any real desire to see many people from high school again. We do however get yearly class & personal photos done at school. My school thankfully stopped doing this ever year at year 12, but in year 13 we had a last commemorative tutor group photo and personal one for our parents. On the whole though, Year books aren't the done thing. In our school the only reason it happend was the girls that came up with the idea were obviously trying to Americanise our school. They created the Prom at the end of our GCSEs as well (something else that doesn't happen in UK schools generally). The occasional school might do it as the norm, but usually (in my experience) it doesn't happen. I just went to the local comprehensive, but have a lot of friends that are public school (as in private expensive education at big country manor houses on the kent & sussex downs, not as in normal anyone can attend schools) kids and they don't have it either. Sara From vheggie at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 13:56:23 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (Vanessa) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:56:23 -0000 Subject: Yearbooks/Harry Potter TV series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rbq27+q1i8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28243 > > The occasional school might do it as the norm, but usually (in my experience) > it doesn't happen. I just went to the local comprehensive, but have a lot of > friends that are public school (as in private expensive education at big > country manor houses on the kent & sussex downs, not as in normal anyone can > attend schools) kids and they don't have it either. > > Sara That's funny, because I was just about to compose a post saying quite the opposite! When I was at school (a grammar, in Kent) we had a 'school magazine' every year which conatined photos, results from exams, sporting events, poems and short stories, reviews of school plays, articles about alumni, etc. This has been going on for at least the last 40 years. We also had a leaving book which was dedicated to photo montages of the final, leaving year. AFAIK the majority of schools in our area, at least, did (and still do, 6 years on) the same thing. The majority of people I knew at university had some kind of 'leaving momento year book' too, although only a minority had a regular school magazine. From lucy at luphen.co.uk Fri Oct 26 14:08:22 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:08:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yearbooks/Harry Potter TV series References: <9rbq27+q1i8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007001c15e27$aeb1ade0$52ae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28244 >> > The occasional school might do it as the norm, but usually (in my experience) > it doesn't happen. I just went to the local comprehensive, but have a lot of > friends that are public school (as in private expensive education at big > country manor houses on the kent & sussex downs, not as in normal anyone can > attend schools) kids and they don't have it either. > >> Sara >That's funny, because I was just about to compose a post saying quite the opposite! When I was at school (a grammar, in Kent) we had a 'school magazine' every year which conatined photos, results from exams, sporting events, poems and short stories, reviews of school plays, articles about alumni, etc. This has been going on for at least the last 40 years. We also had a leaving book which was dedicated to photo montages of the final, leaving year. AFAIK the majority of schools in our area, at least, did (and still do, 6 years on) the same thing. The majority of people I knew at university had some kind of 'leaving momento year book' too, although only a minority had a regular school magazine. I went to a private school and we also had a school magazine each year, much like the one described above. But is this the same thing as an American Yearbook? Regardless of whether it is, I agree that finding some old school magazines might be a good way of finding out about MWPP. Lucy :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SALeathem at aol.com Fri Oct 26 14:12:03 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:12:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yearbooks/Harry Potter TV series Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28245 In a message dated 26/10/2001 14:58:41 GMT Daylight Time, vheggie at yahoo.com writes: << That's funny, because I was just about to compose a post saying quite the opposite! >> Oh well. learn something new every day :o) It just seems to me it's not the common thing. A last year leaving photo thing yeah, but with or without the year book we'd have got that cos of the (almost) yearly school photos. An actual book as the americans do it isn't all that common going from my friends and experiences of schools in the UK ( My first school was an international one in Singapore and they did have a year book produced every year for all the schools pupils, as opposed to the final years. Probably because people left so often to go to another country). We had the school magazine, but it was just bits of a paper, no photos or anything flash. My parents both went to Grammer schools and they too never had a year book, and that was in Newcastle, so I imagined it was the same for most of the country... but nevermind... I think the reason Hogwarts in particular doesn't have one is because JKR's school probably didn't have one and seeing how it's not common in the UK school system in quite the way it is in the US and the books were written for UK school kids originally, it would just confuse a lot of them. From fourfuries at aol.com Fri Oct 26 14:20:06 2001 From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:20:06 -0000 Subject: Book 2 Rules (WAS HP Structure Idea) In-Reply-To: <9r9q3g+qcr4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rbrem+gmri@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28246 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marcus " wrote: > < snip > Perhaps this helps explain why many people feel HP2 is the weakest book. HP1 is all introduction. We meet many people and we learn many facts -- clearly first act. HP3 introduces us to Sirius, Remus, Wormtail, and much more -- clearly first act. What does HP2 do? Well, it introduces us to Lockhart, who promptly leaves the scene.We do learn a few important things about the universe but little else. The rest of the books introduce us to important characters and important facts. HP2 confines itself to important facts. Therefore, it is less satisfying. Not necessarily bad, just less satisfying. > It is less strong when compared to the other first act books.< In the words of the famous philosopher Popeye, "I can stand so much, and then I can't stand no more!" I though HP3 (PoA) was the weakest book, and like JKR, thought CoS the best. My reasoning is as follows. HP1 is clearly a children's book. Clever, witty, novel, but decidedly juvenile in its perspective. We meet a boy who lives under the stair, has dreadful "step-parents" and not much to look forward to. We can not help but feel sorry for him. He gets a totally unexpected induction into a new world, where he is a celebrity. He defeats an evil wizard, who is but a shadow of his former self. All very "Hardy Boys" if you ask me. In Book 2 we begin to establish the major theme: the battle between Good and Evil is a battle within ourselves. We find out more about the nature of the Wizarding world. It is starting to look remarkably like our own. Grown wizards have prejudices, vices and jealousies. The kids merely act out what they learn at home. Then people start getting attacked. Harry gets accused. He goes from celebrated legend to pariah. What an irony that he should even briefly be hated in the world where he first found love and acceptance. The unification of his bi-polar existences has begun. Neither Harry nor his friends take on any real weight until book 2. Book 2 establishes the character of Harry, as opposed to the personality of Harry. His fear is real. The risk to his few friends is great. And the climactic encounter with the bad guy is vastly more personal, intimate and engaging than the "white pain, pass out" events of Book 1. He comes face to face with the twisted mind of Tom Riddle, a boy not unlike himself. The encounter made him question himself, from which questioning all growth comes. Thus his searching questions to Dumbledore about the similarities and the Sorting Hat. Book 3, on the other hand, does nothing to forward that most central theme of battling the Evil within in us through personal growth. Yes, it introduces important characters, but none of them is what they seem to be, and we can therefore learn very little from their examples for most of the book. All the information is presented in a "third hand" fashion (maybe second hand in the case of the Shrieking Shack). It's all background. And the temptation to lock onto Sirius as father figure did not grip me at all. I was so glad Harry didn't go off to live with Sirius! How trite that would have been. Book 4 has a huge burden, to complete the transition of the series from kiddy story to compelling adult morality play, and it succeeds magnificently, in spite of the overlong scenes inlolving Rita Skeeter, the World Cup, and the Dance. The rebirth of Voldemort as a living, breathing menance was worth the wait. Here we meet the TOm Riddle of Book 2 full grown and in the flesh, capable of anything, powerful again. What he lacks in forsight, he more than compensates for in meglomania. Yet it wouldn't be nearly as compelling if we had not met him as a youth in Book 2. We wouldn't "know" him. Now we can observe how he has grown during his years on the path of Evil. Which brings me to the very entertaining threads aobut Evil Overlords. While us grownups have to do something to entertain ourselves until OoP comes out, those who complain about the facile escapes, and the "Oh I forgot(s)...", ought to keep in mind that happy endings are not easy, but we all desperately want them. Why complain when you get what you want most. You get a good, even compelling read, and the hero survives. What more is there? 4FR From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 15:41:34 2001 From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (Marcus ) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:41:34 -0000 Subject: First Movie Preview is Posted Message-ID: <9rc07e+urtd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28247 http://www.hometheaterforum.com/sneak/potter.html Does anybody know anything about "The Home Theater Forum?" Are their reviews to be trusted? Marcus From bjavor at aol.com Fri Oct 26 16:31:48 2001 From: bjavor at aol.com (bjavor at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:31:48 EDT Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <60.15d3de98.290ae9f5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28248 remove bjavor at aol.com from this e-groups From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 17:50:54 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:50:54 -0700 Subject: transfers possible? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026104521.00a0c840@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 28249 Hello, Someone on my list (hpslash) asked a pretty interesting question and I just wanted to know if anyone has the answer. On p. 143 of PS, Harry had a dream where Quirell's turban kept telling him to transfer to Slytherin, etc. My list member wants to ask: since the Sorting Hat is the one that decides, are transfers possible at all? little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Oct 26 18:16:51 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:16:51 -0000 Subject: More in the Lockhart Casting Saga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rc9aj+6093@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28250 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ > > reports that Variety says that Kenneth Branagh is going to be playing > Lockhart. Huzzah! He'll be very good. The question is, who will Emma > Thompson be playing? ::smirk:: > > --John > ____________________________________________ > > Remember: Socks then Shoes. > > John Walton -- john at w... > ____________________________________________ Emma Thompson will be playing Moaning Myrtle of course I am absolutely delighted to hear that Kenneth Branagh will play Lockhart! Wow..is he an incredibly good actor and director...Henry V was superb! From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 26 18:33:19 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:33:19 -0000 Subject: First Movie Preview is Posted In-Reply-To: <9rc07e+urtd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rca9f+r4qv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28251 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marcus " wrote: > http://www.hometheaterforum.com/sneak/potter.html > > Does anybody know anything about "The Home Theater Forum?" Are their > reviews to be trusted? > I don't know if this reviewer can be trusted or not, but the review itself is a total hoot. "I haven't read the books, and I might get some of the names wrong, but they throw a lot at you at once?" LOL! Whatever happened to preparation, like reading PS/SS so you'll understand the film you're reviewing? Cindy (who will try in the future to be happy with any positive reviews the film receives) From vheggie at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 18:40:14 2001 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (Vanessa) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:40:14 -0000 Subject: URGENT: EMAIL WORM FROM MEMBER OF HPFGU LISTS Message-ID: <9rcame+j42j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28252 Today I recieved an email from this address: "Hella Fakhro" Quoting part of my previous post to HPFGU/OT with a line at the bottom which said "take a look at this" Attached was the file Sorry_about_yesterday.DOC.pif This is an email worm, which will attempt to respond to unread emails in your address book. It can be easily removed: http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=99069& I apologise in advance if anyone from this list recieves this from me, clearly my anti-virus software needs updating. :( From margdean at erols.com Fri Oct 26 18:29:52 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:29:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: First Movie Preview is Posted References: <9rca9f+r4qv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BD9ABA0.6ED807E@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28253 "Cindy C." wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marcus " wrote: > > http://www.hometheaterforum.com/sneak/potter.html > > > > Does anybody know anything about "The Home Theater Forum?" Are > > their reviews to be trusted? > > I don't know if this reviewer can be trusted or not, but the review > itself is a total hoot. "I haven't read the books, and I might get > some of the names wrong, but they throw a lot at you at once?" LOL! > Whatever happened to preparation, like reading PS/SS so you'll > understand the film you're reviewing? I haven't yet read the review in question, but there's something to be said for coming at the movie "fresh," with no preconceptions from having read the book(s). Remember, not everyone seeing the movie IS going to have read HP before (unlikely as that seems to us listees! :) ), so the filmmakers have to have those people in mind, too. If the film can't stand on its own, without the viewer having read the book, it's a bad film, no matter how faithful to the book it is. --Margaret Dean From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Oct 26 19:59:10 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:59:10 -0000 Subject: First Movie Preview is Posted In-Reply-To: <9rc07e+urtd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rcfae+civm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28254 Marcus wrote: > http://www.hometheaterforum.com/sneak/potter.html > I don't know if the reviewer is to be trusted, but I have severe doubts about his general capabilities: "I have never read a Harry Potter book, although I have always wanted to." is the second sentence of the review. How hard is it? Go to shopping street, find a shop with a lot of books in the window (possibly also with a sign saying 'bookstore' or similar), enter shop (this is most easily done during shopping hours), look for Harry Potter stand within ten feet of door, etc. I assume he can read - perhaps he dictated the review? David and they call Ron sarcastic From john at walton.vu Fri Oct 26 20:23:11 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:23:11 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Email Worm In-Reply-To: <9rcame+j42j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28255 Hi all. The Mods have set Hella's email address to "No Mail" on all our lists and will be monitoring this closely. If you receive any virii from her, please contact us at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Many thanks, Your Magical Mod Squaddies __________________________________ The HPforGrownups Moderator Team MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Please read our Admin Files, particularly the VFAQ and Netiquette files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ From john at walton.vu Fri Oct 26 20:26:25 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:26:25 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Email Worm [Addendum] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28256 John Walton wrote: > The Mods have set Hella's email address to "No Mail" on all our lists and > will be monitoring this closely. If you receive any virii from her, please > contact us at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > Many thanks, > > Your Magical Mod Squaddies Just a quick note -- this virus is almost certainly not Hella's fault! She's probably just been infected by a nasty and seemingly clever virus. :( --John ____________________________________________ "Do not thump the book of G'Quon. It is disrespectful." -- G'Kar, Babylon 5 John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 20:50:33 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:50:33 -0000 Subject: First Movie Preview is Posted In-Reply-To: <9rca9f+r4qv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rciap+dftf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28257 > > > > I don't know if this reviewer can be trusted or not, but the review > itself is a total hoot. "I haven't read the books, and I might get > some of the names wrong, but they throw a lot at you at once?" LOL! > Whatever happened to preparation, like reading PS/SS so you'll > understand the film you're reviewing? These first reviews seem to (and likely are to) be coming from people who work in movie theaters where they run test screenings and whatnot. So it's probably not likely that they knew they were going to see the movie -- just happened on it. It seems the movie's finally being distributed, and these lucky people are the right ushers in the right place at the right time... So that is probably why they hadn't read it before - they didn't know they'd be seeing it so quickly. even after posting the review, I'm not 100% on its credibility - but it does go nicely with the one Dark Horizons posted later on. Anyway, if Home Theater was a personal site,I'd never believe the review was real. But it does seem to be focused on movies and previews, so I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that it's not a fake review. In any event, a friend of mine who is a film lover first and a book lover second is waiting until Nov 17th to read the book. I understand her reasons, even if I could recite every piece of dialog in HPSS by now... And I'm excited to hear her reactions as opposed to mine. m. > > Cindy (who will try in the future to be happy with any positive > reviews the film receives) From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 21:49:50 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:49:50 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age again!; Movie review In-Reply-To: <3BD95B02.7050209@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9rclpu+amkb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28258 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce wrote: > Hi -- > > Amy Z wrote: > > ?? We knew her birthday, or near enough, in PoA. I wasn't around for > > the thrilling between-time (there was no between-time for me, just a > > brief coming up for air before diving into GoF ), but I would have > > thought that knowing she was born in September would be enough to make > > people consider the possibilities of her being born either year. No > > one wondered? Just a quick thought - "thrilling"? I wasn't into HP online back then - but I did read the first two about eight months before POA came out. I think you had the better of it personally - would have been nice not to have waiting however many months it is now for all the books. > I'm going to pick up a bit on what David Frankis said the other day in > his brilliant post about how our subconscious forms solid opinions about > various things as we read. I also thought that it was a very good post - and think it does apply quite strongly here. I hate to be so close minded - but I think the easisest and most logical way to look at things (I probably only think because its what I assumed but still...) - is '79. I'm not saying its the right answer - but I would need a reason to specially think it was more likely to be '80, if you get me. >I had somehow already formed the opinion > that she would not be 10 mths older than him. Why this is I cannot say. I have to say that I find it strange that people form opinions on intution on small stuff like this. I personally had no definite idea in my head - if I had been asked before we knew her birthday, I probably would have gone the '80 route. Why? No idea. It wasn't a strong enough instinct to survive when we knew her birthday though. >Would Hermione have gone > through her entire last year of primary school knowing she was going to > Hogwarts the next year (assuming a 1979 birthday)? My guess is no - - > they wouldn't want the muggle-borns to have that knowledge for *that* > long, would they? My guess is there would need to be a balance between > giving the muggle-borns enough notice to persuade their families & > adjust to the idea and not giving the muggle-borns the knowledge for too > long (although I suppose they could memory charm them if the kid seemed > likely to spill the beans to all the muggles at his primary school). I'm convinced that the letter can't be the only thing happens for the muggles. Their parents would have to be met and gradually introduced to the idea, and so on. I don't see that big of a reason not to tell the kids - they're going to have to be trusted later anyway, and who's going to believe them? Then again, I've also recently got quite fond of the idea that Hermione know about her witchhood for a while - I can just see her getting more and more nervous, and studying more and more, as the date drew near. On the subject of the movie review - I don't know, I wasn't very convinced at first because it was so positive. Surely they could find something wrong with it? Recently though I trust it more - it was referenced by Ain't It Cool News at http://aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=10597 - a site, which although not always reliable for rumours, don't seem to be that bad for movie reviews. Harry Knowles (who runs the site) also said that, "Just yesterday I talked to a booker in the industry that saw the film and said that it was fantastic and was a cash cow. And the review that these guys have written seem to confirm all the enthusiasm that the booker told me. " Jon, who is rather late for doing all this but never mind, canon no- ship but R/H would make more sense (if *that* makes sense), would be member of P.I.N.E but holding out for someone to create a group saying that all the Weasleys in general - although especially Ron - weren't evil (but for grammar and all, T.W.I.N.E, would be fairly convenient), thinks O.B.H.W.F is too saccharine in some ways but nice in others, that Hermione was born in '79 until we're told otherwise, that Draco is 'good' too much in fanfic but stll likes the good Draco character, and that, he in general, is rather confused. From jonathandupont at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 22:05:25 2001 From: jonathandupont at hotmail.com (jonathandupont at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:05:25 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Second review? Message-ID: <9rcmn5+9lon@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28259 And it seems rather similar to the first one to be honest. Even references Episode One pod racing again for the Quidditch sequence. This guy though has read the books, and he still loves the movie. Could be fake, could be good news. You decide: http://www.darkhorizons.com/reviews/t011026a.htm Jon From neilward at dircon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 22:26:35 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:26:35 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Where we'll be discussing the HP movie... Message-ID: <007901c15e6d$46db2de0$b23470c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 28260 [Flying Ford Anglia sidles in wearing a slightly-too-tight usherettes uniform, wielding a torch and hefting a tray of delicious ice-creams. The other Mods hide behind a nearby sofa] Roll up, roll up - all the fun of the fair! Oh no thats the circus. We re talking films, arent we? And talking of talking films The results of the recent movie poll, to decide where well be discussing the HP movie, were: **202 in favour of keeping movie discussions on the current list, with spoilers; **51 in favour of a temporary movie list; **154 in favour of a permanent movie list; **8 in favour of moving movie discussions to OT Chatter. This is pretty even stevens, with a slight majority in favour of moving the discussions to another location, at least temporarily. After some deliberation, the consensus of the moderator team is to move all Harry Potter movie discussions to a separate list and review the situation periodically. It is very difficult to tell how active the movie list might be between films, since discussion of content will still relate overwhelmingly to book canon, so we'll just suck it and see. We have heard some valid arguments for keeping the discussions on the main HPfGU list and, to be honest, we are reluctant to fragment the list further and possibly create more admin work. However, we've already seen an increase in the number of movie-related posts to the list and that trend is likely to continue once the first film is out. Also, the necessity of enforcing spoiler space on movie or movie-book posts for several months after the release date could, in our opinion, become a real chore. Had a large majority voted against moving the discussions, we would have kept things as they are, but, given the very close call, it seems more practical to make a distinction between discussions of the two media and go ahead with a separate list. ****So [a roll on the drums from behind the sofa].heres the address for the new list, HPFGU-Movie: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie Please follow the hairy usherette into the room on the left, sign yourselves in and, from the dawn of All Saints Day, confine all your chatter, observation and analysis on the Harry Potter movie to that place. Translation: From 1st November 2001 thats the day after Halloween - if you want to post about the Harry Potter movie, please do it at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie and not on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Get over there as sharp as you like, and join up! One more time: sadly, or otherwise, no more HP movie discussions on the main HPFGU list after Hallowe en. [Okay, already!!! We heard you the first time!!!!] Until then, please continue to post to the main list with the MOVIE: prefix. Oh, one more thing: Any comments on this decision should be hurled through the moderators dungeon window at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Please, please, please, please, pleeeeeeeeze dont comment on the main list. Cinematically yours, The Magical Moderator Team From neilward at dircon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 23:08:44 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:08:44 +0100 Subject: INFO: Regional Groups - and a new one for Washington, DC Message-ID: <00c201c15e73$2990f3e0$b23470c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 28261 Hi everyone, As the HP movie release draws closer, it seems a good time to remind you all of the HPfGU regional groups we have, so we can point new members at them and hear what people are planning with regard to the movie. Our new movie list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie) will be launched on 1st November and wed like to kick off the discussions there (not here! not here!) with reports on your plans for seeing the movie. ***New Regional Group!!!!! Joywitch has set up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-WashingtonDC This is a temporary group for arranging to see the Harry Potter films in the company of other LOONs. *** Existing Regional Groups United States http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-NewYork (Mod: John Walton) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Texas (Mod: Elizabeth Davey) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-California (Mod: Jen Piersol) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Florida (Mod: Amber) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-NewEngland (Mod: Sinead) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-GreatLakes (Mod: Ebony) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Kentucky-Tennesee (Mod: Danette) Europe http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-London (Mod: Neil/Flying Ford Anglia) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Germany (Mod: Mike/Aberforth's Goat) Rest of planet http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Australia (Mod: Vicky Granger) Theres also a list of all these groups in the Bookmarks section of the club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/links/ Please add your groups there and kindly let us know at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com A stunning weekend to you all! Magically, Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Mechanimagus Mod From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Fri Oct 26 23:43:00 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:43:00 -0000 Subject: Book 2 Rules (WAS HP Structure Idea) In-Reply-To: <9rbrem+gmri@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rcse4+isrk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28262 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote: Please forgive the rather random snipping from this excellent post. > > I though HP3 (PoA) was the weakest > book, and like JKR, thought CoS the best. > > My reasoning is as follows. > In Book 2 we begin to establish the major theme: the battle between > Good and Evil is a battle within ourselves. We find out more about > the nature of the Wizarding world. > Neither Harry nor his friends take on any real weight until book 2. > Book 2 establishes the character of Harry, as opposed to the > personality of Harry. His fear is real. The risk to his few friends > is great. And the climactic encounter with the bad guy is vastly > more personal, intimate and engaging than the "white pain, pass out" > events of Book 1. > Let me break in here to say that all of this about CoS is true. The events in it are important, and the subsequent books don't work without those events. That alone, however, doesn't quite elevate CoS into the league of GoF and PoA for me. The reason is that CoS' plot is fine, for the most part. The issues I have are with the execution. The writing is not as engaging, lively or witty. The new characters are mostly Dobby and Lockhart. There are parts that don't make sense to me. *And I'll stop here, because there will be a huge virtual groan if I go on and on again about my "issues" with CoS.* Suffice it to say that I think it is undisputed that CoS is an "important" book, a book that had the potential to be among the best in the series, but the execution prevented it from being all it could be. I think it winds up on the bottom of most people's ranking only because the other three books executed their plots better. > Book 3, on the other hand, does nothing to forward that most central > theme of battling the Evil within in us through personal growth. > Yes, it introduces important characters, but none of them is what > they seem to be, and we can therefore learn very little from their > examples for most of the book. All the information is presented in > a "third hand" fashion (maybe second hand in the case of the > Shrieking Shack). It's all background. And the temptation to lock > onto Sirius as father figure did not grip me at all. I was so glad > Harry didn't go off to live with Sirius! How trite that would have > been. > I'd agree that Book 3 isn't the most important book plotwise, and even I, a rabid PoA fan, wouldn't call it pivotal. But PoA competes nicely with Book 4 for "best written" book in terms of the outstanding character development, subtle humor, crisp dialogue, and brilliant use of foreshadowing, not to mention the huge number of plot balls JKR has in the air at one time. Book 3 also wins points for "degree of difficulty" because as you correctly note, it is largely background. Anyone who can make background as exciting as PoA wins major style points from me. I also think (but can't prove) that PoA can contend for the prize for internal integrity for having the fewest plot holes and other large unresolved issues than GoF or CoS. PS/SS might win the prize for integrity in the end, I don't know. As an aside, your terrific analysis of CoA vs. the other books makes me wonder what others think about which of the books is the most "important," and implicitly, whether there can even be an answer to that question. Perhaps the consensus would be GoF, but there might be a spirited discussion for second place. Cindy (who sometimes can't believe the same person wrote the 4 HP books, as the writing style seems so different) From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Oct 27 00:40:38 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:40:38 -0000 Subject: transfers possible? And other Hat thoughts In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026104521.00a0c840@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <9rcvq6+ielb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28263 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > Someone on my list (hpslash) asked a pretty interesting question and I just > wanted to know if anyone has the answer. > > On p. 143 of PS, Harry had a dream where Quirell's turban kept telling him > to transfer to Slytherin, etc. My list member wants to ask: since the > Sorting Hat is the one that decides, are transfers possible at all? > > little Alex Well, the Hat also seems to allow the students to have some level of input, judging from Harry's experience. I wonder if there could be special cases where a student is allowed to transfer, particularly if the Hat thought the student would do equally well in either of two houses. But, I think we're supposed to accept that the Hat's magic is such that it makes the right placement, and thus, there would be no need for a student to transfer. It certainly seems from canon that the Hat's decisions stand. But, that leads to other questions. It seems that the students are sorted fairly evenly into the four houses. I don't think we've seen any Sorting where the percentage of students that were sorted into any one house was much greater than the other houses. Does that make sense? What if 50 percent of the incoming students were truly Ravenclaws? Would the Hat send them all into that house, or is the Hat also striving to keep a fairly balanced number of students in each of the four houses? And, is the Hat working completely independently, or does it get some input from the Headmaster/mistress? I've always thought that whatever "discussions" the Hat has with a student can be magically heard by Dumbledore. If I was the head of the school, I'd like to have a little advance warning of what my new students are like. I'd be at least somewhat prepared for the antics of Fred and George Weasley. Marianne, always hatless From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 01:37:31 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (Magpie) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:37:31 -0000 Subject: Bill's age (WAS Weasleys ages) In-Reply-To: <9r9hra+p3h7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rd34r+5ett@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28264 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" wrote: > > > > In GoF Bill tells Harry that he hasn't visited Hogwarts since 5 > > years ago. At that time there was three Weasleys in Hogwarts, > > Fred, George and Percy. Charlie's last year at Hogwarts was 1984- > > 85, 11 years before Triwizardtournament. > Darn, I can't find my PS/SS. Is there a reference in there that > proves Bill is older? I can't think of anything. If Charlie is > the oldest, that would help close the 8-year Weasley childbearing > gap we talked about the other day. > > Cindy I can't think of any mention of birth order in the Weasley household before Percy. So Charlie *might* be the older. I've always assumed that Charlie was the older, since Bill is still sowing his wild (dragon-tooth earringed) oats.... But could it be that Bill's last visit to Hogwarts was to see Charlie in a Quidditch tournament? If Charlie good enough to play professionally, the whole family may have turned up for a championship? - Denise From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 02:05:04 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 02:05:04 -0000 Subject: What constitutes vitriol? (was Re: consent laws in the UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rd4og+jktt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28265 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > > Moreover, even if the legal age for homosexuals were 16, the reaction from > certain sectors of society (particularly American society) would be > vitriolic at best. > > --John > > ____________________________________________ > > "It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our > abilities." --Albus Dumbledore > > John Walton -- john at w... It most certainly is, John, and you have chosen to cast a gratutitous slur at American society from your sanctimonious far-above-the-fray vantage point. I have called this post to the attention of the moderators, and I have been waiting to no avail for the moderators to take some action against this post of yours that violates more than one of their "commandments." Once again it has been demonstrated that, as I have asserted before, in this Orwellian farm, some animals are indeed more equal than others. However, allow me to call these violations to your attention, for whatever it may be worth: The post is most certainly off topic. I do not see any reasonable way you can connect the buggering of sixteen year old kids by adults to the discussion of things Harry Potter. Even speculation about fanfiction that involves the sodomizing of fictional children of 16 by adult fictional characters would be off topic, at best. Indeed, you weren't writing about some slash where adult character "A" had a physical relationship with 16 year old character "B". e.g., Harry during the time of Book six; your post raises inflammatory material from real life, which inflammatory material, IIRC, has been PUBLICLY condemned by the moderators before in more than one instance-- although curiously not in this instance. Could it be that sexual relations between adults and sixteen year old boys is not considered inflammatory? Or is it that speculation about sexual relations between adult characters and sixteen year old boys is appropriate for this message board? Even if this be so, the language of the post was not neutral. It was not simply a report on political science in the United Kingdom, upon the workings of Parliament. It was a gauntlet thrown at those whom the poster considered unworthy. Any response, in his omniscience, would be "vitriolic" at best. IMHO, it doesn't take a great deal of intelligence intelligence to predict that an attack will engender a response. As for the vitriol, I would contend that the vitriol had already been let out of the flask. I am making no assertion in this post about homosexuality. It might surprise some of you to learn what I do think about it. This post is in response to the cavalier attack made in post #28215, with the tacit approval of the moderators, who have not hesitated in the past to condemn inappropriate posts. If you consider this response vitriolic, then so be it. Haggridd From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 02:05:10 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 02:05:10 -0000 Subject: What constitutes vitriol? (was Re: consent laws in the UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rd4om+ojsi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28266 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > > Moreover, even if the legal age for homosexuals were 16, the reaction from > certain sectors of society (particularly American society) would be > vitriolic at best. > > --John > > ____________________________________________ > > "It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our > abilities." --Albus Dumbledore > > John Walton -- john at w... It most certainly is, John, and you have chosen to cast a gratutitous slur at American society from your sanctimonious far-above-the-fray vantage point. I have called this post to the attention of the moderators, and I have been waiting to no avail for the moderators to take some action against this post of yours that violates more than one of their "commandments." Once again it has been demonstrated that, as I have asserted before, in this Orwellian farm, some animals are indeed more equal than others. However, allow me to call these violations to your attention, for whatever it may be worth: The post is most certainly off topic. I do not see any reasonable way you can connect the buggering of sixteen year old kids by adults to the discussion of things Harry Potter. Even speculation about fanfiction that involves the sodomizing of fictional children of 16 by adult fictional characters would be off topic, at best. Indeed, you weren't writing about some slash where adult character "A" had a physical relationship with 16 year old character "B". e.g., Harry during the time of Book six; your post raises inflammatory material from real life, which inflammatory material, IIRC, has been PUBLICLY condemned by the moderators before in more than one instance-- although curiously not in this instance. Could it be that sexual relations between adults and sixteen year old boys is not considered inflammatory? Or is it that speculation about sexual relations between adult characters and sixteen year old boys is appropriate for this message board? Even if this be so, the language of the post was not neutral. It was not simply a report on political science in the United Kingdom, upon the workings of Parliament. It was a gauntlet thrown at those whom the poster considered unworthy. Any response, in his omniscience, would be "vitriolic" at best. IMHO, it doesn't take a great deal of intelligence intelligence to predict that an attack will engender a response. As for the vitriol, I would contend that the vitriol had already been let out of the flask. I am making no assertion in this post about homosexuality. It might surprise some of you to learn what I do think about it. This post is in response to the cavalier attack made in post #28215, with the tacit approval of the moderators, who have not hesitated in the past to condemn inappropriate posts. If you consider this response vitriolic, then so be it. Haggridd From lumen_dei at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 02:36:05 2001 From: lumen_dei at yahoo.com (lumen_dei at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 02:36:05 -0000 Subject: Recommend books for Harry Potter Fans Message-ID: <9rd6il+tvoq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28267 Hello, I just wanted to let everyone know that if you need a book to read while waiting for Harry Potter V ; we have a list of books (over 75) that Harry Potter fans have sent to us. Thanks to all who have recommended books! Review a book and win one of twelve Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire Wallpaper. http://geocities.com/lumen_dei/book.html From joym999 at aol.com Sat Oct 27 03:29:15 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 03:29:15 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #17 results Message-ID: <9rd9mc+qifr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28268 Here are the results of contest #17, in which you were asked to find a new name for the Harry Potter for Grownups Frequently Asked Questions. The Moderators, in their infinite wisdom, have decreed that those who wrote the FAQ should get to determine what to rename it. So, I will faithfully report the results and patiently wait while our fabulous FAQ-writers peruse the results. Let me just remind you of the original suggestions, which came from various elves, moderators, poltergeists, and bathroom walls: - The Pensieve (or The HP4GU Pensieve) - The Very Large File Full of Harry Potter Speculation from HP4GU - The Official League Of Obsessed Nitpickers' Guide to Harry Potter - Substantive Topical Essays - Frequently Discussed Topics And here are the contest entries: ********************************************************************** ...."File full of really cool questions and observations that you think no one could possibly ever have asked or made before, but if you ask or make them again, we guarantee you that you will been sent a whole truckload or lorryload of howlers" Or, for short, just: "F.F.O.R.C.Q.A.O.T.Y.T.N.O.C.P.E.H.A.O.M.B.B.I.Y.A.O.M.T.A.W.G.Y.T.Y.W .B.S.A.W.T.O.L.O.H." ;^) ....Craig (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) (Note from the contestmeister: cute as though this entry is, my crystal ball has determined the FAQ-writers will not choose it.) ********************************************************************** "The Land of L.O.O.N."? Denise (magpie1112 at yahoo.com) ********************************************************************** Fantastic Posts and Where To Find Them cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) ********************************************************************** HPforGrownups, A History Elizabeth ( mlleelizabeth at yahoo.com) ********************************************************************** Everything you ever wanted to know about Harry Potter but didn't know how to ask or - The HP-Files or - The Collected Essays of HP Fandom Danette (captain_debrowe at yahoo.com) (Note from the contestmeister: A nice variation on the first one of Danette's suggestions could be "Everything you wanted to know about Harry Potter but were afraid to ask") ********************************************************************** "Hermione's Corner" Barb (blpurdom at yahoo.com) ********************************************************************** 1. The World of Harry Potter Through the Eyes and Minds of Muggles 2. Potter World According to Muggles 3. The Harry Potter Universe 4. Understanding The Potter World and Making Muggle Sense of the Whole Thing 5. Harry Potter World Explained by Muggle Experts 6. Using Your Imagination, Read and Learn About HP 7. Everything You Wanted to Know About HP and Look No Further, Here It Is! 8. Read with the Mind of a Child, and You'll Learn about HP 9. So, you want to know more about HP? Here You Go! 10. Enter Only With An Open Mind, Open Heart, and You'll Learn About HP. A Magical Place for Your Imagination to Soar with the Owls! Wanda ********************************************************************** From joym999 at aol.com Sat Oct 27 03:51:47 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 03:51:47 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #18 -- The Superdelicious Harry Potter Crossword Message-ID: <9rdb0l+5ien@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28269 This week's contest is a crossword puzzle - a very large, long one that should delight the little hearts of HP fans. In order to do the puzzle, you will have to go to our files section and download the diagram (or you may be able to open the file and print it without actually downloading, depending on your Internet browser or something). Here's where to go: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HP4GU%20Contest/ Make sure you download the diagram file for Contest #18. (crossword diagram.jpg or crossword diagram.wpd) The JPG version is a standard graphics file that most types of photography and graphics software can read, and the WPD file is a wordperfect file that most word processing programs can read. If you can't figure out how to download the diagram, let me know and I will email it to you. (Let me know if you want the JPG file or else what type of wordprocessing software you use, including version#.) Since I don't want to get file attachments from people, given all the virus problems of late, if you want to enter the contest just write the answer to each clue, both across and down, and send it to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com or to the above address (as usual, save your email until you get a reply). If you don't want to go to the trouble of typing out all the answers (understandable), but you manage to finish the entire puzzle, let me know anyway. But I want you to swear on a stack of HP First Editions that you really did complete the puzzle, and keep in mind there is an anti-cheating spell on your quill. Here is the word list. Enjoy. ACROSS 1. Moose 4. Harry's Brazilian friend is one 7. Liable 10. Radio band 12. British Olympic runner of the `80s 13. These are often shifted 15. Hallmark often writes this (2 wds.) 17. Antonio Banderas is this, to some 19. Title 31. Mr. Wade's opponent 32. Hagrid and Maxime are on this side 33. This is served at The Leaky Cauldron 34. Get together 35. The experimental section of Broadway 37. Half a fly? 38. Billy Crystal film: ___ ___ ___ Sally 42. Russia was one before 1991 (Abbr.) 43. Smallest state (Abbr.) 44. Water demon 46. This can hold a window or a dress in place 49. Ceramics studios 50. "Yo te ___," said Arthur to Molly during a romantic moment in Segovia. 51. Earth prefix 53. Identify 54. Clint Eastwood film (2 wds.) 56. Jazz "Fatha" 58. The greatest wizard, to his friends 60. Hawkeye Pierce's boss 62. Natural log. 63. ___, you're, she's... 64. 500 meters, in Beijing 65. Zulu group 68. Printer's measure 69. Columned, covered walk in Sparta 70. Good name for an Irish pub 74. Author of "Matilda," to his friends 75. Gypsy Rose or Robert E. 77. Sicilian volcano 79. Menaces 80. Also known as submarine or hero 81. Hostel 82. Popular Hawaiian singer 84. The RNC beat them in 2000 85. Decontaminate 87. Element no. 43 88. Main course 90. Magical mailman 93. Capone or Capp 94. Yes, in the Pampas 95. Congratulations! It's __ __! 97. Currency in Bangkok 98. Electric co. 100. Hitchcock's acting role 102. How Norbert likes his meat 104. It's near AZ 106. Meg, Jo, Beth or Amy 108. Signal 110. Common connector 111. Nonviolent doctrine 113. Island, in Ibiza 114. Home state of oldest U.S. Sen. 115. Approx. 116. Drug cop 118. Like Ludo Bagman and other aging athletes 121. Lennon's spouse 123. Great ___ 125. Abby's twin 126. Poet Cummings 128. First actor to be cast in the HP movie 129. Harry, Hermione and Ron are one 130. Californian zone 131. They sell roadrunner traps 132. Ensign Laren 133. Courier company 134. Family doc. 135. Weak weeping 137. Arthur Weasley's off. 138. Little sea bird 140. Three strikes 141. He sorrowed for the lost Lenore 142. Unit of radioactivity, for short 143. Sullivan or Norton 144. San Francisco hill 145. Han and Napoleon 146. Sibling of 285 across 147. Title 154. Caustic substance 155. Stadium 156. Transmit 157. Concerning 158. One of a giant's four words 159. Suffix for place where action occurs 160. Was going, in Quito 161. Corrode 162. Pan or weed 163. This abounds on HP4GU 166. WWII-era Ger. currency 168. Male Hominidae 169. Two-thirds of a mile (Abbr.) 170. It's above the ceiling 172. Being that does the cooking and cleaning 173. Common contraction 174. Little, in Lille 175. Part of the Sphinx's riddle 176. Marauder's ___ 177. One 178. Owns 179. Sahara truck? 181. Close 183. __ __ nutshell (concisely) 184. __ Thee I Sing 186. Physician's prefix 188. Do this to the bells if they're not heard 189. Not science or humanities 190. Ron's assessment of Sir Cadogan 192. Oak fruit 194. __ Man River 195. English course for non-native speakers 196. Estates 198. Afterthought (Abbr.) 199. Fusses 201. Red-cheeked 202. It's all below Panama (Abbr.) 204. Continental gov., in Madrid 205. Homer's frequent comment 206. House, in Strasbourg 208. Popular TV hospital drama 209. Domestic adjective 213. Ubiquitous bug 216. Color 217. One-third of a tbs. 219. House finch 220. Tanned 222. Dorothy's dog 225. Female St. 226. Gonzalez boy 227. He turned out to be a very nasty little rat 229. Very useful magical creatures 231. Common conjunction 232. On the river 235. Sun god 236. The guy on stage with the mike 237. Hagrid's shoe width? 238. Missing HP book? 241. Ms. Doolittle 242. Back when Alastor Moody was in charge of the Aurors, Fudge once remarked "One thing you can say about Moody's department ? __ __ __ eye on the death eaters." 246. Directs 247. Burden 250. Ten liters (Abbr.) 251. Gun org. 252. Afternoon meals at Hogwarts 253. It's __ __ (I'll pay for it) 254. Type of melon 256. This org. can help if you have a few too many 257. Good nickname for a guy named Cipowskiwitzkavich. 258. Eloise Midgen may have this problem (2 wds.) 262. Mandible 263. Arabic term of endearment 265. Hermione would rather die than have you do this to her 267. Paddle 268. Harry's favorite pudding 272. Cancer-treating drugs and insect sterilants 273. Title 279. Fill with excitement 280. Sneezed (Obs.) 281. Get louder (Abbr.) 283. Webbed container 284. Possibly the nastiest grp. of Nazis 285. Bill could call Ginny this 286. Hankering 287. Donkey DOWN 1. Repeat 2. Type of sponge 3. Hagrid carries one in his pocket 4. Myrtle would like to watch you take one 5. Common conjunction 6. Like 7. Further back 8. Sci-fi writer Frederick 9. Agreements between warring parties 10. Gred's twin 11. X times CCL, plus I 13. This sound makes the horse turn right 14. Telepathy (Abbr.) 16. Samuel the codemaker 18. Now's partner 19. He played 60 Across 20. Where the poor are buried 21. Sirius says this sometimes 22. Cranny 23. Important Hogwarts class 24. Plural suffix 25. Blood factor 26. Hermione did this to the other students 27. Prefix 28. Seventh month of the Hebrew calendar 29. One thing you can say about the troll in the girl's bathroom (2 wds.) 30. Dryness in the skin, eyes or nose 36. SE U.S. state 38. Common question, also an answer 39. Title 40. Aging space station 41. Snakelike creature 45. Evening hrs. 46. Nick's title 47. These are used for boxing and shooting 48. Condition 52. Fairy king 54. Frightening kissers 55. Title 56. "Light" `70s band, for short 57. __ __ it! (I'm really serious!) 59. German submarine 61. Spiral prefix 66. XLVIII, ___, ___, LIV 67. Paradise 71. Expression of surprise 72. Not in the dist. 73. Higher up than a lt. 76. Book which hit Malfoy in the eye 78. Main artery 80. Ringed toy popular in the `60s 83. Buenos Aires to S?o Paolo dir. 86. Scottish cap 88. White who wrote about Charlotte 89. Apprehends 91. You, I, he and she 92. Look! 93. Hagrid's big, furry boyhood friend 96. Fisherman? 99. One of Tolkien's talking trees 100. Quidditch teams of Chudley, Kenmare, Puddlemere, Ballycastle 101. Obsolete interjection 103. Nictate 105. Original New Zealanders 107. Passes 109. Still 112. "Magical ___" 117. Pause in speech or song 119. Sparrows or canaries 120. One of Hermione's many books 122. These posts are not allowed on HP4GU 124. Here, in Barcelona 125. Rice, in La Paz 127. Singer John 133. Sock-loving being 135. __-Tongue Toffee 136. Comparative suffix 137. Mine, in Marseille 139. Galahad's mom and Jerry's best friend 141. Song of praise 144. Not either 145. Like this 147. Orson Welles' character in The Third Man 148. Popular household furnishings store 149. Outdo 150. Father of 146 and 285 Across 151. Rest 152. Old Olds 153. __ Nova (Latin for "New Art") 162. Hawaiian glop 163. Camel-like native of South America 164. Low points 165. First month in Managua 166. Be rude to, again 167. You're probably one 171. Judah's son 172. What? 174. Pray, in Paris 176. Female horse 180. Ron holds this office in S.P.E.W. 182. Amelia 183. It is sometimes confused with the pixie 185. This powder will get you places 187. These keep entrances open 191. Infect 193. NYC is here 196. Public announcement, usually too frequently made 197. Sgt., to the Priv. 200. Element No. 50 203. Hermione's hair is sometimes all this 207. Spielberg turned down the HP movie to make this lousy flick. 210. Beg 211. Anoints 212. Virgil epic 214. Mostly likely response when Snape asks for a volunteer to try a new potion. (2 wds.) 215. Hawthorne collection of tales 216. Every 218. Fairy 220. She wrote Peter Rabbit 221. Common Chinese surname 223. A 4000 pound weight (2 wds.) 224. Tillie, also the recently-deceased Barbara 227. He's second in line to the British throne 228. Cyst 230. Stalk 233. A place no wizard wants to go 234. Unease 239. Before 240. Without nippers 243. Water demon 244. Architect I.M. 245. My Gal __ 248. MS Windows is one 249. What the doctor wants you to say 254. Hoard 255. Aid 259. Second-yr. 260. A Hawaiian wizard, usually big 261. Fleurs-de-lis 262. Part owner of a joke shop 264. First presentation for sale (Abbr.) 266. Very small printer's measure 268. Common preposition 269. He keeps the minutes of the mtng. 270. Ages 271. Sicilian hills 274. Most Hogwarts students can be called this 275. They run parts of the hosp. 276. And so forth (Abbr.) 277. __ Call the Whole Thing Off 278. Campus org. of the `60s 281. Baseball's Young 282. Element No. 75 From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 27 04:15:26 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 04:15:26 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of United Airlines Message-ID: <9rdccu+rq4e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28270 HP fans may need to start planning to do all their air travel via broom, carpet or hippogriff - or maybe lay in a good supply of floo powder. http://www.cpcn.com/articles/101801/news.godfrey.shtml You'll have to read down several paragraphs before PoA enters in. - CMC From taradiane at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 04:34:00 2001 From: taradiane at yahoo.com (Tara) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill's age (WAS Weasleys ages) In-Reply-To: <9rd34r+5ett@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011027043400.84780.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28271 --- Magpie wrote: > I can't think of any mention of birth order in > the Weasley household > before Percy. So Charlie *might* be the older. > I've always assumed > that Charlie was the older, since Bill is still > sowing his wild > (dragon-tooth earringed) oats.... I'm in the middle of re-reading CoS and I recall reading last night that Bill is the eldest. There's a mention from Ron (I think) to Harry that he's the oldest. I'll have to go home tonight and find the page number and forward that on. If I remember correctly, it's during Harry's visit at the burrow. But I'm not ready to swear by it yet ;-) Tara __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From frantyck at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 04:52:25 2001 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 04:52:25 -0000 Subject: the once and future king In-Reply-To: <9rd6il+tvoq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rdei9+qmk4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28272 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lumen_dei at y... wrote: > Hello, I just wanted to let everyone know that if you need a book > to read while waiting for Harry Potter V ; we have a list of books > (over 75) that Harry Potter fans have sent to us. Thanks to all who > have recommended books! Review a book and win one of twelve > Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire Wallpaper. > http://geocities.com/lumen_dei/book.html Here's a great one: _The Once and Future King_, by T. H. White. Has anyone here read that? I've been reading it slowly and comfortably for the last week or so. It's a retelling of the story of Arthur, but this one is nothing like any of the others I've read. It's light, urbane, witty, moving, truthful, quirky, scintillating. It's a bit like Umberto Eco but less weighty. It's also like fanfiction in a sense, that it touches on all the rock-solid plot points, but in between weaves a fantastic, believable but very individual path. The reason this post is not OT: The first part of the book (the best, I think) describes the youth and education of Arthur (or the Wart), under the supervision of Merlyn. Much like Harry in PS/SS, Arthur is introduced to the world of magic, and to his inheritance. Merlyn's preferred pedagogical method is direct experience; thus, to learn about birds, Arthur is transformed into one. Which is then an opportunity for White to explore bird society, teaching and speculating brilliantly. The section where Arthur becomes a migratory goose (funny as that sounds) is one of my favourite breath-halting bits of literature. And then there are the ants, over-allegorised co- denizens of our planet, but still cleverly reimagined here. Please read this book, preferably a musty, yellowing, secondhand version like mine. I was going to compare Harry's and Arthur's experiences as they are introduced to a new world, and the fact that they both have a mission of some sort to perform, but I'm sitting in my office and the book rests on my bedside table at home... so. There is also much to be said about comparing the conceptualisation of each magical world... both set in England and with similar cultural topoi/recurring features of magic and all that. There must be something in the fact that English writers can so readily conjure up believable magic worlds, I know I read an essay on that somewhere... gnarrr. If this has come up before (dang, should have checked the archives), sorry. Still, there's always someone new here! From tabouli at unite.com.au Sat Oct 27 10:59:56 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:59:56 +1000 Subject: Comment on homosexuality Message-ID: <001e01c15ed6$9c1f6500$dc90aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 28273 I question my wisdom on entering this fray, but a couple of thoughts... John: > Moreover, even if the legal age for homosexuals were 16, the reaction from certain sectors of society (particularly American society) would be > vitriolic at best.< Hagridd: > the language of the post was not neutral Well no, strictly speaking the language in John's post wasn't neutral, as Hagridd says. It was also, strictly speaking, off-topic (as is this message I am writing). Age of consent *was* recently discussed on OT-Chatter, and I suspect the moderators would prefer any further discussion of the topic to move there. All the same, John's observation is accurate. In parts of most societies homosexual people experience prejudice, invisibility and physical violence as a result of their sexual orientation. Many choose to conceal their orientation for this reason, sometimes even engaging in false heterosexual relationships and having children as the best way of hiding it (which can ultimately cause extreme trauma to all parties involved, as I have witnessed myself). For someone who is homosexual, or who has friends and/or relatives who are homosexual, it's distressing to think that you yourself, or someone you care for, is constantly in danger of being harassed, attacked or excluded for something which, assuming consent, causes no physical harm to other people. This is the context into which I would put John's comment. I think it's not unreasonable to resent groups within society who victimise and demonise you or people you care about. I know that some people find homosexuality offensive on religious or cultural grounds, but surely inflicting pain and prejudice on people (no matter what their lifestyle) is just as immoral. What happened to "hate the sin, love the sinner"? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tabouli at unite.com.au Sat Oct 27 11:00:50 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:00:50 +1000 Subject: Grizzles on Goblet Message-ID: <002a01c15ed6$a45f3600$dc90aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 28274 Cindy: > But PoA competes nicely with Book 4 for "best written" book in terms of the outstanding character development, subtle humor, crisp dialogue, and brilliant use of foreshadowing, not to mention the huge number of plot balls JKR has in the air at one time.< Hmmm. Now, it's a long time since I read stats on this subject, so I could be wrong, but IIRC the next most popular choice for "worst HP book" is GoF, which is the one that gets my vote. I think both PoA *and* CoS are better written than GoF. Much as I love the Yule Ball, find the Harry/Ron fight interesting and revealing, and enjoy Rita and the Moody/Barty performance, the plot of GoF is as holey as a Swiss cheese in a shooting gallery. The Triwizard Tournament tasks 2 and 3 as spectator sports? Yeah right. Even HP4GU members were having to strain their imaginations to justify that one. Shutting down Quidditch for a year? How very convenient for JKR. Did we really need those blasted Blast-Ended Skrewts? Thought they were a bit pointless and unfunny, myself. 150 pages on the World Quidditch Cup? I'll buy the defence that there are a lot of important issues raised in it, but JKR could have been *much* more economical about them (whittle those silly Veela scenes down for a start: all they seem to be doing is setting us up for Fleur, and that could be done in a couple of paragraphs). Sofie: > being 'nackered' is to be extremly tired. I forget that some english expressions never crossed over to America.< I knew what this meant, but I always thought it was "knackered", with a K... isn't it?? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From frances at forever.u-net.com Sat Oct 27 10:55:26 2001 From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:55:26 -0000 Subject: UK News of the World Message-ID: <9re3qu+avhq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28275 For Brits on this group the UK edition of News of the World is supposed to have a HP 22 page special this weekend (usually Sunday publication 28th October). There was an advert on SM:Tv about it. Also on SM:Tv they showed the short American tv trailer. Interesting to see the Quiddich scene was Gryffindor v Slytherin. Wonder if this will be the only match shown. Frances From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Oct 27 11:31:14 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:31:14 +0100 Subject: Comment on homosexuality (ADMIN comment) References: <001e01c15ed6$9c1f6500$dc90aecb@price> Message-ID: <006d01c15eda$e3589780$b83470c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 28276 Tabouli: << Well no, strictly speaking the language in John's post wasn't neutral, as Hagridd says. It was also, strictly speaking, off-topic (as is this message I am writing). Age of consent *was* recently discussed on OT-Chatter, and I suspect the moderators would prefer any further discussion of the topic to move there >> Yes, please. What started out as an OT comment on the age of majority/consent in the UK, following (I think), a discussion of Hermione's age, has ended up as "the completely OT thread that wouldn't go away". It should have been shooed to OT a few miles back... We ask people not to post OT to this list, but there will be a point in some threads where someone has to make a decision to move to OT Chatter. Rather than jump in with a big flashing ADMIN every time, we rely on the common sense of posters to say something along the lines of "I'm getting OT now, so please respond to me on OT Chatter". If you're responding directly to someone's point with something OT (such as this explanation of the age of consent), please send them an e-mail as a courtesy, to let them know you'll reply on OT Chatter, or send them a private message if it isn't of general interest. Thanks Neil (who has put away the sheepdog suit and doubts it will still fit him) _____________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Magical Moderator Team From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sat Oct 27 12:15:10 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:15:10 -0000 Subject: transfers possible? And other Hat thoughts In-Reply-To: <9rcvq6+ielb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9re8ge+fu9f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28277 I've always thought that > whatever "discussions" the Hat has with a student can be magically > heard by Dumbledore. If I was the head of the school, I'd like to > have a little advance warning of what my new students are like. I'd > be at least somewhat prepared for the antics of Fred and George > Weasley. > > Marianne, always hatless Ah, that doesn't sit well with me. Being a fanatical Dumbledore fan, I see him as the moral spine of the books. I can't see him snooping into students minds undectected, no matter how useful the information might be. Sorry, had to stand up for Dumby! Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Sat Oct 27 12:20:42 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:20:42 -0000 Subject: More in the Lockhart Casting Saga In-Reply-To: <9rc9aj+6093@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9re8qq+27e0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28278 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ > > > > reports that Variety says that Kenneth Branagh is going to be > playing > > Lockhart. Huzzah! He'll be very good. The question is, who will Emma > > Thompson be playing? ::smirk:: > Hurray! I finally called one! From the moment I read the book I thoght he'd be perfect; it's scary/ironic in fact. His real life personality comes across as so Lockhart-esque. I remember reading somewhere where he said that all interpretations of Laertes (from Hamlet) after his would have to consider his as benchmark, or something to that effect. The main difference is that Brannaugh is legitmatly brilliant, while Lockhart is...Lockhart. Can't wait to see him in ringlets! :) Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sat Oct 27 13:36:47 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:36:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: transfers possible? And other Hat thoughts Message-ID: <166.2f312de.290c126f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28279 I agree with Cornflower (I assumed that's what you want to be called in this list :-) ). Dumbledore has values and believes a great deal in them. He would never 'listen in' on students' minds. After all, this is the man who doesn't believe in use of The Dementor's Kiss or use of Unforgivable Curses on "the bad guys". If he doesn't think another human being should be subjected to being without a soul or controlled by a curse no matter how evil they are, I highly doubt he would think hearing students' thoughts is alright ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 27 15:23:33 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:23:33 -0000 Subject: Bill's age (WAS Weasleys ages) In-Reply-To: <20011027043400.84780.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rejhl+mb7s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28280 > > --- Magpie wrote: > > I can't think of any mention of birth order in > > the Weasley household > > before Percy. So Charlie *might* be the older. > > I've always assumed > > that Charlie was the older, since Bill is still > > sowing his wild > > (dragon-tooth earringed) oats.... > Someone set me straight just the other day. Bill is the oldest based on the caption to the photograph of the Weasleys in Egypt, where he is specifically called the eldest son. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 27 15:38:51 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:38:51 -0000 Subject: Grizzles on Goblet In-Reply-To: <002a01c15ed6$a45f3600$dc90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9rekeb+bc2a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28281 > Cindy: > > But PoA competes nicely with Book 4 for "best written" book in terms of the > outstanding character development, subtle humor, crisp dialogue, and > brilliant use of foreshadowing, not to mention the huge number of > plot balls JKR has in the air at one time.< > Tabouli wrote: > Hmmm. Now, it's a long time since I read stats on this subject, so I could be wrong, but IIRC the next most popular choice for "worst HP book" is GoF, which is the one that gets my vote. The HP4GU polls have a number of questions about which is our favorite and least favorite books. For least favorite book, the results are: PS/SS - 15% CoS - 70% PoA - 7% GoF - 8% For favorite book, the results are: PS/SS - 7% CoS - 5% PoA - 59% GoF - 28% Anyway, before I joined this group, I would have voted GoF as favorite, but hearing all of the valid criticisms of GoF have dropped it to second place for me, behind PoA. Incidently, when I finished GoF for the first and second time, none of the plot problems occurred to me except the wand order, IIRC. Even my gripes about windiness in the first half of the book didn't trouble me much, because I was so jazzed about the second half that my first-half gripes were long forgotten. So if plot problems only occur to me after reading a book for the third time, helped along by the collective brain-power of hundreds of people finding plot holes, then GoF is still probably a pretty solid effort. Anyway, another thing that helps PoA and GoF along, I suppose, is that the new characters introduced are really great. In PoA, we get Black and Lupin, and in GoF we get Moody. All three are some of JKR's best, and the books can only help from such strong new characters. Cindy From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 27 15:57:20 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:57:20 -0000 Subject: Lawbreaking Among HP Adult Characters Message-ID: <9relh0+e7dn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28282 I was musing the other day about whether we might go to Azkaban in OoP. If we did, we'd need a reason to go there, and that got me thinking about which adult characters have broken the law and committed serious offenses. JKR has set up a situation in which, in addition to Black, a lot of adult characters have impressive rap sheets and are candidates for Azkaban: Dumbledore: aiding and abetting Black's escape; thwarting Buckbeak's execution; encouraging breaking rules on time turner use; use of Veritaserum; spreading word of Voldemort's return at MoM and Hogwarts (which may break the Code of Wizarding Secrecy); maybe sending envoys to the giants. Snape: Provided the Veritaserum. Failed to blow the whistle on Black. McGonagal: Witnessed the Veritaserum. Also obtained the Time Turner for a student, promising only to allow her to use it for her studies. Molly, Arthur and Bill Weasley: Undermining Fudge at MoM with news of Voldemort. Lupin: Will soon be collaborating with Black again. Percy: Suspected in Crouch's disappearance. Hagrid: Illegal dragon breeding. Charlie: Assisting in the transport of an illegal dragon. Cindy (hoping Mundungus Fletcher is a lawyer) From SALeathem at aol.com Sat Oct 27 16:10:27 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:10:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lawbreaking Among HP Adult Characters Message-ID: <67.1becc893.290c3673@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28283 Cindy wrote: << Dumbledore: ... use of Veritaserum... >> Was that outlawed then? I don't remember reading that it was, but I've only just today restarted reading GoF so I should answer my own question in a day or two. << Snape: ...Failed to blow the whistle on Black... >> But he did, didn't he? He got the Ministry and was looking forward to Black getting the Dementors kiss when Harry & Hermione helped Black escape. Also, I wonder if Harry, Hermione & Ron (and anyone else in their year that's broken a few laws) would be eligable to anything like a secure unit under Wizard Law? Wonder if there even is such a thing in the Wizarding world... Sara From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 27 16:37:40 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:37:40 -0000 Subject: Lawbreaking Among HP Adult Characters In-Reply-To: <67.1becc893.290c3673@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rensk+j8hh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28284 Sara: > Was [Veritaserum] outlawed then? I don't remember reading that it was, but I've only > just today restarted reading GoF so I should answer my own question in a day > or two. Snape shows Harry the Veritaserum in "Padfoot Returns" and says: "It is Veritaserum -- a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear," said Snape viciously. "Now, the use of this potion is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines. But unless you watch your step, you might just find that my hand slips" -- he shook the crystal bottle slightly -- "right over your evening pumpkin juice. And then, Potter . . . then we'll find out whether you've been in my office or not." Actually, now that I look at it again, Snape's mentioning of the ministry guidelines seems a little forced here, doesn't it? I wonder if JKR is foreshadowing something? Hmmm. > > << Snape: ...Failed to blow the whistle on Black... >> > > But he did, didn't he? He got the Ministry and was looking forward to Black > getting the Dementors kiss when Harry & Hermione helped Black escape. Sorry, I meant in GoF, once he learns Black is an animagus, he doesn't blow the whistle then. Cindy From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Sat Oct 27 17:23:45 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:23:45 -0400 Subject: Living With Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28285 I have a bit of the book that has always bothered me in a way and I'm hoping the list can help me sort it out. The part specifically is in Chapter 20 - The Dementor's Kiss of POA. In the first bit, Sirius asks Harry if he will live with him since it looks like his name will be cleared. Harry, without even thinking about it, says yes. I will say that the first time reading it, it bothered me. Why? Because a scarce couple of hours before, Harry had thought Sirius Black was out to kill him. Furthermore, Harry had a BURNING HATRED for Sirius (as is evidence in Chapter 11 - The Firebolt). And Sirius has frightened and hurt his dearest friends, even choked Harry a bit. Yet, in the course of a couple of hours, Harry was able to completely turn about his perception of the man. I've thought of reasons why Harry would accept his invitation. Obviously, Harry will do anything to escape the Dursleys. Well, not everything but an awful lot. Apparently even agree to live with someone he doesn't know at all. Sirius, in my eyes, is practically a stranger. But when you compare a stranger to the Dursleys, I guess the stranger wins out. Anyone would be better than the Dursleys, right? Another probable reason is that Harry is just able to change his view and emotions of a person that quickly. Er, that's not what I mean precisely, but close enough. In that case I commend him, he's a better person than I could ever be. I know that I would still have lingering shadows of doubt, regardless of how firmly Sirius' innocence is proved. As to why Sirius would offer in the first place...well...guilt. Horrendous guilt that he wasn't there for Harry throughout Harry's previous years and he wishes to rectify the matter as soon as possible. These are solid reasons to explain Sirius' offer and Harry's ready acceptance. But it still bothers me. If I were Sirius, I would've waited until my name was cleared. If I were been Harry, I would've asked to think about it (even if just for an hour!). The way Harry is able to accept Sirius wholeheartedly when scarcely before he was shouting "HE KILLED MY MUM AND DAD!" is puzzling to me. So, can anybody explain any other reasons besides the ones above or perhaps explain those reasons better? Am I the only one who feels this way? I recognize that it could just be me not understanding but I'd like to be able to read that part of the book without feelings of misgiving. I've always been a bit suspicious of how EASILY Sirius has been able to slip into Harry's life despite all the obstacles. But then, I've always wondered at how Harry is able to accept anyone in his life after spending years and years in a cupboard. Exceptional doesn't begin to describe the boy... ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Blessed are the shallow Depth they'll never find Seems to be some comfort In rooms I try to hide" - "Frail" by Jars of Clay _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 27 17:29:28 2001 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:29:28 -0000 Subject: More in the Lockhart Casting Saga In-Reply-To: <9re8qq+27e0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9reqto+v9ed@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28286 Kenneth Branagh one of the best actors in the entire English speaking world and is perfect to play Lockhart. I ever remember seeing him in a Woody Allen comedy, he played a Lockhart sort of character, he even dyed his hair blond and he was great. From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sat Oct 27 17:40:29 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:40:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Living With Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28287 Well, there are a number of factors as to why Harry trusted Sirius so easily in my opinion. First of all, there's the Lupin factor. Harry trusts Lupin completely and saw him as a father-figure, sort of. Lupin trusted Sirius and calmly was able to explain to Harry everything and answered all of his questions and doubts honestly. Harry was very upset and for a moment he was suspicious of even Lupin but then he began to calm down and was able to see the situation logically. Then, of course, all the proof was given; Wormtail. If I saw a man I thought to be dead suddenly change from a rat, which he was hiding as for no apparent reason my opinion of the situation would certainly change. Lastly, there's the fact that Harry *was* just a thirteen-year old boy. He wanted to leave the Durselys and trust the man who was his father's best friend. He jumped at the chance for an alternate story other than his dad's best friend and his godfather betrayed his parents. Any boy his age would probably do the same ~ Calypso In a message dated 10/27/01 1:25:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, inviziblegirl at hotmail.com writes: > I have a bit of the book that has always bothered me in a way and I'm hoping > the list can help me sort it out. > > The part specifically is in Chapter 20 - The Dementor's Kiss of POA. In the > first bit, Sirius asks Harry if he will live with him since it looks like > his name will be cleared. Harry, without even thinking about it, says yes. > I > will say that the first time reading it, it bothered me. > > Why? Because a scarce couple of hours before, Harry had thought Sirius > Black > was out to kill him. Furthermore, Harry had a BURNING HATRED for Sirius (as > is evidence in Chapter 11 - The Firebolt). And Sirius has frightened and > hurt his dearest friends, even choked Harry a bit. Yet, in the course of a > couple of hours, Harry was able to completely turn about his perception of > the man. > > I've thought of reasons why Harry would accept his invitation. Obviously, > Harry will do anything to escape the Dursleys. Well, not everything but an > awful lot. Apparently even agree to live with someone he doesn't know at > all. Sirius, in my eyes, is practically a stranger. But when you compare a > stranger to the Dursleys, I guess the stranger wins out. Anyone would be > better than the Dursleys, right? > > Another probable reason is that Harry is just able to change his view and > emotions of a person that quickly. Er, that's not what I mean precisely, > but > close enough. In that case I commend him, he's a better person than I could > ever be. I know that I would still have lingering shadows of doubt, > regardless of how firmly Sirius' innocence is proved. > > As to why Sirius would offer in the first place...well...guilt. Horrendous > guilt that he wasn't there for Harry throughout Harry's previous years and > he wishes to rectify the matter as soon as possible. > > These are solid reasons to explain Sirius' offer and Harry's ready > acceptance. But it still bothers me. If I were Sirius, I would've waited > until my name was cleared. If I were been Harry, I would've asked to think > about it (even if just for an hour!). The way Harry is able to accept > Sirius > wholeheartedly when scarcely before he was shouting "HE KILLED MY MUM AND > DAD!" is puzzling to me. > > So, can anybody explain any other reasons besides the ones above or perhaps > explain those reasons better? Am I the only one who feels this way? I > recognize that it could just be me not understanding but I'd like to be > able > to read that part of the book without feelings of misgiving. I've always > been a bit suspicious of how EASILY Sirius has been able to slip into > Harry's life despite all the obstacles. But then, I've always wondered at > how Harry is able to accept anyone in his life after spending years and > years in a cupboard. Exceptional doesn't begin to describe the boy... > > ~Amber > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eyre68 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 17:58:11 2001 From: eyre68 at yahoo.com (JayKay) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011027175811.42705.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28288 --- Amber ? wrote: > I've always > been a bit suspicious of how EASILY Sirius has been > able to slip into > Harry's life despite all the obstacles. There's a *lot* about Sirius I'm suspicious of. In addition to the situation you mention, I find it disturbing that no one seems at all concerned by the fact that he blithely sent Snape off to the Shrieking Shack where Snape would have ended up dead or a werewolf himself, and Remus would have had to live with the guilt of killing or afflicting Snape for the rest of *his* life as well. But no, they brush it off as a "prank." Either Sirius is so thoughtlessly impulsive and completely oblivious to the possible consequences of his actions, or he's so emotionally unstable that he's capable of killing Snape in cold blood simply because Snape followed him and his friends around. Yeah, that's a "crime" really deserving of death or lycanthropy, Sirius. I'm just wondering if we shouldn't have a knee-jerk "aww, he's Harry's godfather and is being nice to him, so we should like him" reaction. If Snape hadn't pointed out that Sirius' "prank" almost resulted in murder, I'd think it was JKR glossing over the darker implications of Sirius' actions for the sake of keeping it black and white for the kids. But Snape *does* point that out, only he gets dismissed. That makes me wonder whether she's fooling the readers into dismissing his accusation as well just because it's coming from Snape, so obviously he's only saying that because he's been carrying a grudge all this time -- and then she'll turn this around and reveal we should've listened to Snape all along. Either way, I don't have a very high opinion of Sirius. IMO, he comes off as a jerk masquerading as a "cool guy." And I'll stop there before I get pelted with tomatoes from all the Sirius fans. I will say, however, that the first couple of times I read PoA, I really liked Sirius. I had the "aww, how sweet, he's an innocent man unfairly accused. Oh, how he's suffered, poor ickle Siri-kins" reaction. But once I started really thinking about it, I felt like JKR had skilfully manipulated me into having exactly the reaction I was supposed to have based on the surface circumstances. Thinking about his actions and attitude in greater depth and detail made me revise my opinion of him considerably, and not for the better. JayKay ===== "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." ~~Albus Dumbledore, _Chamber of Secrets_ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 27 18:59:59 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:59:59 -0000 Subject: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rf07f+ui1p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28289 Amber, I had some of the same reservation you and others are expressing. I'll just quickly state how I decided to reconcile it all. > Sirius asks Harry if he will live with him since it looks like > his name will be cleared. Harry, without even thinking about it, says yes. I > will say that the first time reading it, it bothered me. > > Why? Because a scarce couple of hours before, Harry had thought Sirius Black > was out to kill him. Furthermore, Harry had a BURNING HATRED for Sirius (as > is evidence in Chapter 11 - The Firebolt). And Sirius has frightened and > hurt his dearest friends, even choked Harry a bit. Yet, in the course of a > couple of hours, Harry was able to completely turn about his perception of > the man. > It helps to think about these things from Harry's POV. Yes, he had a burning hatred for Sirius after learning the details of how his parents were betrayed. That was at a time when Sirius wasn't really personalized to Harry. In other words, Sirius was just a picture in the paper, a picture in a photo album. Once Harry has the chance to kill Sirius, perhaps because by then Sirius is a person to Harry. That could be partially because Harry never wanted to believe (and maybe deep down never did believe) that Sirius betrayed James and Lily. The core of it, really, is that once Harry believes Sirius' version of events, he sees that everything Sirius has done since before Harry was born was done out of friendship and loyalty to James and a desire to protect Harry. The secret keeper blunder was a misguided attempt to protect James and Lily. Breaking out of Azkaban and all of the risks Sirius subjected himself to were to protect Harry. Not once does Sirius protest that Pettigrew should die for the wrongs he committed against Sirius personally. It's all about Harry. There's no better way to demonstrate one's devotion than doing the sorts of things Sirius did for Harry and his parents. Amber wrote: If I were Sirius, I would've waited > until my name was cleared. If I were been Harry, I would've asked to think > about it (even if just for an hour!). I think it makes sense that Sirius makes this offer straight away. First, Sirius is, um, sometimes a bit rash. So he wouldn't think things over and rationally conclude that he ought to offer Harry a home. No, he'd just go ahead and do it, no matter the consequences or risk of rejection. As for Harry, he has never lived in the non-Hogwarts wizarding world other than a few days with the Weasleys and in Diagon Alley. And look how much he enjoyed both places. Harry is a fish out of water in the muggle world of Privet drive, so it would be advisable to accept Sirius' offer quickly before he changes his mind. Jaykay wrote: I find it > disturbing that no one seems at all concerned by the > fact that he blithely sent Snape off to the Shrieking > Shack where Snape would have ended up dead or a > werewolf himself, and Remus would have had to live > with the guilt of killing or afflicting Snape for the > rest of *his* life as well. But no, they brush it off > as a "prank." > > Either Sirius is so thoughtlessly impulsive and > completely oblivious to the possible consequences of > his actions, or he's so emotionally unstable that he's > capable of killing Snape in cold blood simply because > Snape followed him and his friends around. Yeah, > that's a "crime" really deserving of death or > lycanthropy, Sirius. > Yes, that Sirius is definitely our resident hot-head, isn't he? These things bothered me a great deal when I reflected on them. But I've decided it works after all. Sirius did a dreadful thing with the prank, abusing his friendship with Lupin for personal reasons, putting his friend at risk, risking Snape's life, all without receiving any significant consequences for his conduct. On the other hand, he has been the victim of a dreadful betrayal at the hand of his friend Pettigrew, which cost him 12 years in Azkaban and a lifetime of guilt. Sirius badly abused a friendship, and he was badly abused by a friend. It kind of evens out when you look at it that way, so I figure Sirius has more than paid for what he tried to do to Snape. Cindy From SALeathem at aol.com Sat Oct 27 19:05:40 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:05:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Living With Sirius Message-ID: <6a.1585c207.290c5f84@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28290 << I find it disturbing that no one seems at all concerned by the fact that he blithely sent Snape off to the Shrieking Shack where Snape would have ended up dead or a werewolf himself, and Remus would have had to live with the guilt of killing or afflicting Snape for the rest of *his* life as well. But no, they brush it off as a "prank." Either Sirius is so thoughtlessly impulsive and completely oblivious to the possible consequences of his actions, or he's so emotionally unstable that he's capable of killing Snape in cold blood simply because Snape followed him and his friends around. Yeah, that's a "crime" really deserving of death or lycanthropy, Sirius. >> Remember, when Sirius did that he was just a kid. A 16 year old boy. How many 16 year old boys do you know that think before they act? How many 16 year olds in general bother to consider their actions before they do anything? Not many. Boys in particular are still very immature at that age, look at what they get up to. I'm not saying of course that 16 year old girls are saintly virgins, but in comparison to the boys of the same age for the most part they are slightly more mature... (only just very slightly, and only in some cases...) << I'm just wondering if we shouldn't have a knee-jerk "aww, he's Harry's godfather and is being nice to him, so we should like him" reaction. If Snape hadn't pointed out that Sirius' "prank" almost resulted in murder, I'd think it was JKR glossing over the darker implications of Sirius' actions for the sake of keeping it black and white for the kids >> I don't see it like that. As stated before, he was a 16 year old boy when he did that and 16 year old boys do not think before they act. If it was the other way round, do you really think Snape would have been mature enough to think before he acted? I doubt it. He probably would have carried it off as well, and thought it was really funny too. Maybe he might have thought better of it at the last moment, maybe he wouldn't. I think in way, Snape's showing his immaturity in not being able to let it drop (yeah I know, it was a big deal, he could have died/ended up a werewolf, he could have ruined Lupins life even more as well... but again, if the boot was on the other foot etc.) by holding a grudge against Harry for the actions of Harry's father. He's acting incredibly childish by doing that (similar to Draco for being mean to Hermione cos she was muggle born/keen, not liking Ron cos his family's poor etc). Unless there is something else that we haven't learned about (such as maybe he was in love with Lily... his jealously of James for being a good quidditich player, although strictly speaking, we do know about that already), I think it's immature of Snape to act as he does towards Harry because he doesn't like James. Especially seeing how James died. I just keep on thinking, c'mon Severus, isn't it about time you grew up?? I also think, that in a way, the way Snape tells Harry it was as if he was saving it to have maximum impact and to deliberatly to upset Harry. << I will say, however, that the first couple of times I read PoA, I really liked Sirius. I had the "aww, how sweet, he's an innocent man unfairly accused. Oh, how he's suffered, poor ickle Siri-kins" reaction. >> The first time I read PoA I was suspicious of Lupin, and not too keen on Sirius either. After it had all been revealed I still wasn't sure of either of them really. Reading it again, I like Lupin a lot more, and it makes sense about the sneakoscope - on the train the first time I thought it was going off at Lupin, and then in the bedroom I thought it was faulty (Ron had said Bill had reckoned it was faulty because it went off at dinner, but he didn't know that Fred & George had put something in his soup) or was maybe being activated by Crookshanks. But on the second reading, it's clear it was Wormtail/Scabbers that made it go off all of the time. As opposed to Crookshanks or Lupin. As for Sirius, I was slightly more sympathetic to him, but his behaviour in the shrieking shack was still a worry. Mainly the choking Harry bit. He might of course, just be one of those people who, when angry, just see red and totally go off their nut. He might also be truely evil and we're yet to see it. But I think it's more likely that he just has a nasty temper, but is really a nice bloke. Seems to me, if that was the case, James would have been a nice foil to him, from what we've learnt about James so far. Sara From taradiane at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 19:27:06 2001 From: taradiane at yahoo.com (Tara) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill's age (WAS Weasleys ages) In-Reply-To: <9rejhl+mb7s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011027192706.1704.qmail@web11507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28291 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > Someone set me straight just the other day. > Bill is the oldest based > on the caption to the photograph of the > Weasleys in Egypt, where he > is specifically called the eldest son. It's also mentioned in CoS, ch4, when George is explaining O.W.L.'s to Harry. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 27 19:46:45 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:46:45 -0000 Subject: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: <6a.1585c207.290c5f84@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rf2v5+nelj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28292 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., SALeathem at a... wrote: > > As for Sirius, I was slightly more sympathetic to him, but his behaviour in > the shrieking shack was still a worry. Mainly the choking Harry bit. I can't help myself. I just have to defend Sirius against the impression that he is a psycho who breaks the legs of innocent teenagers and will choke his own godson. Yes, Sirius broke Ron's leg. But it was an accident. After all, Sirius was just dragging Ron away. The school year is almost over, and if he is going to expose Pettigrew before his soul gets sucked out, he has to get a move on. He couldn't wait for a better opportunity. He gave Ron an owl later, so they're square. Now, the choking. When Sirius choked Harry, the circumstances were that Harry had just attacked Sirius, knocking him backward into a wall and punching him repeatedly. Harry was about to grab the wands. Two other people were about to jump in on Harry's side. Of course Sirius grabbed Harry's throat, because if he loses this fight, he goes to the dementors, and Pettigrew gets to deliver Harry to Voldemort. Once Sirius couldn't use the wands to stun Harry, his only decent option was to try something rather primitive (choking) that usually will get someone to stop attacking you. *heavy sigh* I think I am in desperate need of a new support group to advocate that Sirius is not seriously bent and a danger to himself and others, but is simply misunderstood and doesn't always think things out before acting. Perhaps S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R. (Sirius Is not Nutters; Instead, Sirius Tried to do Everything Right). Cindy From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 20:16:17 2001 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (Megan) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:16:17 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: First showtimes posted In-Reply-To: <9rf2v5+nelj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rf4mh+p536@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28293 (until we start on the Movie list...) Fandango (online movie ticket seller) has posted the first round of showtimes for HPSS. Granted, only a fraction of the theatres going to be showing HPSS are posted so far, so if you don't see one locally, don't worry. (For you Austinites, the only two theatres up are in far north Austin...guess we'll just have to wait!) Tickets are available now for ordering. http://www.fandango.com -Megan (wishing they'd hurry up and post the rest) From eyre68 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 20:38:20 2001 From: eyre68 at yahoo.com (JayKay) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: <9rf07f+ui1p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011027203820.66008.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28294 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > It kind of evens out when you look at it that way, > so I figure Sirius > has more than paid for what he tried to do to Snape. I'd buy that if there were any sign, however slight, that Sirius learned anything from his experiences. But if PoA does nothing else, it reveals he's still just as prone to act without thinking, and he's still just as capable of holding a senseless grudge. There's no reason for Sirius to hate Severus as much as he does except, possibly, Severus' past as a DE, a mistake which Severus has made up for. Even with that in mind, Severus hasn't done anything to Sirius personally that we know of on the same level that Sirius has done to Severus. I can fully understand why Severus feels the way he does, but IMO, Sirius' reactions aren't justified, and he doesn't appear to have learned anything or changed much at all. I think he's capable of doing the same sort of thing again, given the chance. JayKay ===== "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." ~~Albus Dumbledore, _Chamber of Secrets_ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu Sat Oct 27 20:49:40 2001 From: j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu (j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:49:40 -0000 Subject: the once and future king In-Reply-To: <9rdei9+qmk4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rf6l4+cj8a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28295 > Here's a great one: > > _The Once and Future King_, by T. H. White. > > Has anyone here read that? I've been reading it slowly and > comfortably for the last week or so. It's a retelling of the story of > Arthur, but this one is nothing like any of the others I've read. > It's light, urbane, witty, moving, truthful, quirky, scintillating. > It's a bit like Umberto Eco but less weighty. It's also like > fanfiction in a sense, that it touches on all the rock-solid plot > points, but in between weaves a fantastic, believable but very > individual path. > > The reason this post is not OT: The first part of the book (the best, > I think) describes the youth and education of Arthur (or the Wart), > under the supervision of Merlyn. Much like Harry in PS/SS, Arthur is > introduced to the world of magic, and to his inheritance. Merlyn's > preferred pedagogical method is direct experience; thus, to learn > about birds, Arthur is transformed into one. Which is then an > opportunity for White to explore bird society, teaching and > speculating brilliantly. The section where Arthur becomes a migratory > goose (funny as that sounds) is one of my favourite breath-halting > bits of literature. And then there are the ants, over-allegorised co- > denizens of our planet, but still cleverly reimagined here. Please > read this book, preferably a musty, yellowing, secondhand version > like mine. > > I was going to compare Harry's and Arthur's experiences as they are > introduced to a new world, and the fact that they both have a mission > of some sort to perform, but I'm sitting in my office and the book > rests on my bedside table at home... so. There is also much to be > said about comparing the conceptualisation of each magical world... > both set in England and with similar cultural topoi/recurring > features of magic and all that. There must be something in the fact > that English writers can so readily conjure up believable magic > worlds, I know I read an essay on that somewhere... gnarrr. > Hope this isn't too off topic, but I read the Once and Future King in High School and loved it. I can definately see the correlations to Harry Potter that you are talking about. In some ways, Harry Potter reminds me of Arthurian legend, particularly if you are one of those people who believe that Harry's predetermined destiny is to battle He- Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. I recently read The Book of Merlin by T.H. White which is the ending that he intended for the Once and Future King, but was not originally published with the rest of the book. This book while heavily centered on the nature of man does continue the idea that being destined to perform a function for society is not easy because Arthur at one point chooses to give up. I have to wonder if Harry will ever make the decision to let someone else battle Vodelmort for a while. Hmm possible prediction for book? Maybe Ron can have some of the fame and glory. J. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sat Oct 27 21:17:20 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:17:20 -0000 Subject: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: <20011027203820.66008.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rf890+ioie@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28296 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JayKay wrote: > > > I'd buy that if there were any sign, however slight, > that Sirius learned anything from his experiences. But > if PoA does nothing else, it reveals he's still just > as prone to act without thinking, and he's still just > as capable of holding a senseless grudge. > > There's no reason for Sirius to hate Severus as much > as he does except, possibly, Severus' past as a DE, a > mistake which Severus has made up for. Even with that > in mind, Severus hasn't done anything to Sirius > personally that we know of on the same level that > Sirius has done to Severus. > > I can fully understand why Severus feels the way he > does, but IMO, Sirius' reactions aren't justified, and > he doesn't appear to have learned anything or changed > much at all. I think he's capable of doing the same > sort of thing again, given the chance. > > OK. Fair enough. Good points. We certainly haven't been told that Severus did anything evil to Sirius. And Sirius didn't know Snape was a DE until the "Parting of the Ways". (In Padfoot Returns, Sirius says, "But as far as I know, Snape was never even accused of being a Death Eater.") So if Snape has been heroic and has placed himself at risk in service to Dumbledore, Sirius knows nothing of it, and would have no reason to think Snape isn't the same kid Sirius knew at Hogwarts. Now, in my never-ending quest to defend Sirius, consider this. You're right that Sirius is frozen in time, isn't he? Still stewing over decade-old grudges, showing no more emotional maturity or growth than the day he left Hogwarts. Still smirking about Snape's greasy hair like a pre-adolescent, locked in the same old tired battles. And why is that? Well, he's been locked up for 12 years. It is hard to manage much personal growth when one is lying on the floor of a cell in solitary confinement. The main frame of reference in life Sirius really has is his time at Hogwarts, and he seems perpetually trapped there, growth-wise. One would expect that Snape and Lupin would truly have moved on by now, and Lupin surely has. But if Sirius isn't showing us any growth, it really isn't his fault. Snape, on the other hand, has not moved past his old Hogwarts grudges either. Opposing Lupin's appointment as DADA teacher. Trying to tip off the students that Lupin is a werewolf. Tipping off the students so that Lupin must resign. Accusing Lupin of letting Black in the castle. Motivated to catch Black in PoA to settle a school-boy grudge. Being unwilling to acknowledge Black's membership on the team until Dumbledore forced him too. Snape is also showing a certain lack of personal growth, and unlike Sirius, Snape doesn't have a very good excuse for it. Cindy (typing this response to take her mind off the fact that Word just crashed and she lost a great chunk of her work and now must re- create it) From eyre68 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 21:49:34 2001 From: eyre68 at yahoo.com (JayKay) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: <9rf890+ioie@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011027214934.56671.qmail@web10103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28297 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > And why is that? Well, he's been locked up for 12 > years. It is hard > to manage much personal growth when one is lying on > the floor of a > cell in solitary confinement. Hhm... I don't know that I'd agree with that totally. Considering he had strength of mind enough to keep from going insane (we assume), it seems that the sheer intensity of his experiences could have triggered some kind of growth and insight. Traumatic experiences tend to have that effect on people. Something earth-shaking happens, it rocks their world, and they don't see things the same way again. But Sirius does definitely seem stuck in a negative way, which doesn't say much for him (in my opinion, which is obviously not kindly disposed towards Sirius ). > Snape, on the other hand, has not moved past his old > Hogwarts grudges > either. Opposing Lupin's appointment as DADA > teacher. Trying to tip > off the students that Lupin is a werewolf. Tipping > off the students > so that Lupin must resign. Accusing Lupin of > letting Black in the > castle. Motivated to catch Black in PoA to settle a > school-boy > grudge. Being unwilling to acknowledge Black's > membership on the > team until Dumbledore forced him too. Snape is also > showing a > certain lack of personal growth, and unlike Sirius, > Snape doesn't > have a very good excuse for it. But unlike Sirius, I don't think Severus is motivated solely by anger over an old grudge. His motives aren't that simple or simplistic. The grudge certainly added fuel to his fire, but I think his main motivation is playing watchdog for Dumbledore, which is essentially what he's been doing since book one. After all, Severus is the one who actively goes after Quirrel, trying to protect the stone and by extension, Harry. In book two, Severus has one of the strongest positive reactions we see from him in the entire series when he clutches his chair upon being told Ginny has been taken into the Chamber. That little detail says a *lot* about how he feels about protecting the students. And in book three, as horribly wrong as he is and how poorly he goes about it, Severus is trying to protect Hogwarts and the students from people he perceives as a threat. Lupin is a threat because he's a werewolf, and Severus has a real, visceral memory of an up close and personal encounter with Remus-as-werewolf. I'm willing to bet he doesn't want history to repeat itself with Harry's generation of students. As far as suspecting Sirius and wanting to see him captured again... well, even *Remus* thought Sirius was guilty. And what does that say about Sirius? There must have been something about him that helped Remus, Hagrid and everyone else who knew him (with the possible exception of Dumbledore; I can't remember if he expressed any opinion on Sirius' guilt or innocence re the murders) believe he was capable of turning to Voldemort and killing on V's behalf. There's no evidence anyone went leaping to his defence, crying, "No! It's not possible! He'd never do that! There must be some kind of mistake!" I'll be the first to say I think the fact that Sirius's "prank" contributed to Severus' gloating glee when he thought he was on the verge of bringing Sirius to justice, but I don't think it was his primary motivation. I think he was continuing his role of Hogwarts watchdog. I'm curious to know if this is the job Dumbledore wants him to fulfill, or if it's a self-appointed role, but his pattern throughout the books is clear: he's keeping an eye on things, which, now that I think of it, is a variation on what he did as a student which got him n Sirius' bad side to begin with. The man is a stickler for order, following the rules, and safety. As someone on another list put it, he's the Hogwarts version of Javert, and that's the best description of the role he's fulfilling I've seen, so I'm borrowing it. Can't take credit for it, though. :) At any rate, that's my interpretation of events, which isn't likely to change in Sirius' favor any time soon, so I'll stop picking on him now. ;) JayKay ===== "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." ~~Albus Dumbledore, _Chamber of Secrets_ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Sat Oct 27 23:00:33 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:00:33 -0000 Subject: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: <20011027214934.56671.qmail@web10103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rfeah+juph@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28298 > --- "Cindy C." wrote: > > Snape, on the other hand, has not moved past his old > > Hogwarts grudges > > either. Opposing Lupin's appointment as DADA > > teacher. Trying to tip > > off the students that Lupin is a werewolf. Tipping > > off the students > > so that Lupin must resign. Accusing Lupin of > > letting Black in the > > castle. Motivated to catch Black in PoA to settle a > > school-boy > > grudge. Being unwilling to acknowledge Black's > > membership on the > > team until Dumbledore forced him too. Snape is also > > showing a > > certain lack of personal growth, and unlike Sirius, > > Snape doesn't > > have a very good excuse for it. > > But unlike Sirius, I don't think Severus is motivated > solely by anger over an old grudge. His motives aren't > that simple or simplistic. The grudge certainly added > fuel to his fire, but I think his main motivation is > playing watchdog for Dumbledore, which is essentially > what he's been doing since book one. As much as I am a Snape fan, I would still have to agree with Cindy here. Yes, Snape still hasn't entirely moved on from the old grudge he has with the Marauder gang and although his actions in PoA were justifiable, it was motivated mostly by the grudge. (Only I wouldn't call it a grudge but a legitimate grievance. You would too if someone put you in grave danger and act as though you deserve it.) But he's showing sign that he can rise above that. One of the more admirable things Snape has done in PoA is how he brewed the Wolfsbane Potion for Lupin even though he hated him, wanted him sacked. It would have been easy for him to just refuse to do it. (It's not in my contract, Dumbledore.) or deliberately screw up. (Ooops, I did it again.) Sirius: I think most Sirius fans subscribe to the theory of Post- traumatic syndrome(sp?)for his actions in PoA. And there is some credit to this theory, namely, he was able to assess Snape in a semi- fair manner in GoF. At least he didn't come right out and say that Snape is not to be trusted, period. But I would never forgive the 'Slimy, oily, greasy kid' remark. What does that ever have any bearing on adult Snape? From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Oct 27 23:44:39 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:44:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lawbreaking Among HP Adult Characters In-Reply-To: <9relh0+e7dn@eGroups.com> References: <9relh0+e7dn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <15567541216.20011027164439@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28299 Saturday, October 27, 2001, 8:57:20 AM, Cindy C. wrote: CC> Dumbledore: aiding and abetting Black's escape; thwarting Buckbeak's CC> execution; encouraging breaking rules on time turner use; use of CC> Veritaserum; spreading word of Voldemort's return at MoM and Hogwarts CC> (which may break the Code of Wizarding Secrecy); maybe sending envoys CC> to the giants. Haboring a mad and probably dangerous parselmouth (from MoM's POV). CC> Snape: Provided the Veritaserum. Failed to blow the whistle on CC> Black. Threatened a student with Veritaserum. CC> McGonagal: ... Also obtained the Time Turner CC> for a student, promising only to allow her to use it for her studies. This was authorized by the MoM, not criminal act. CC> Molly, Arthur and Bill Weasley: Undermining Fudge at MoM with news of CC> Voldemort. If any of the above is sent to Azakaban for *that*, then Fudge is as evil as V. CC> Hagrid: Illegal dragon breeding. Illegal magical cross-breeding (i.e. the Skrewts). That said, I see two other possible scenarios that might bring Harry to Azkaban: 1. Dumbledore and McGonnegal (and Snape?) are sent to A as part of a "Saturday Night Massacure" when they fail to follow some Ministry command from on high (maybe to expel that "mad and possibly dangerous" parselmouth named Harry Potter). Or: 2. Voldy releases all his old supporters, and, seeing what a pity it is to let that nice, big fort go to waste, he uses it to lock up the good guys (!!!) Comments? -- Dave From pbnesbit at msn.com Sat Oct 27 23:46:54 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:46:54 -0000 Subject: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: <20011027214934.56671.qmail@web10103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rfh1e+40n1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28300 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JayKay wrote: > > --- "Cindy C." wrote: > > > > And why is that? Well, he's been locked up for 12 > > years. It is hard > > to manage much personal growth when one is lying on > > the floor of a > > cell in solitary confinement. > > Hhm... I don't know that I'd agree with that totally. > Considering he had strength of mind enough to keep > from going insane (we assume), it seems that the sheer > intensity of his experiences could have triggered some > kind of growth and insight. Traumatic experiences tend > to have that effect on people. Something earth-shaking > happens, it rocks their world, and they don't see > things the same way again. > It's the opinion of myself as well as some others on this list that Sirius is suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Notice how he is *not nearly* as impulsive in GoF (besides coming back to Britain to be near Harry) as he is in PoA. Having suffered from PTSS myself, I can certainly understand his actions. (Snipetty Snip Snip) > > > Snape, on the other hand, has not moved past his old > > Hogwarts grudges > > either. Opposing Lupin's appointment as DADA > > teacher. Trying to tip > > off the students that Lupin is a werewolf. Tipping > > off the students so that Lupin must resign. Accusing Lupin of > > letting Black in the castle. Motivated to catch Black in PoA to settle a school-boy grudge. Being unwilling to acknowledge Black's > > membership on the team until Dumbledore forced him too. Snape is also showing a certain lack of personal growth, and unlike Sirius, > > Snape doesn't have a very good excuse for it. What can I say? Sometimes grudges last a looooong time. I think a lot of Severus's problem is that he was not popular when James, Sirius, Remus & Peter were. (Snippage again) Parker > > > JayKay > > > ===== > "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." > ~~Albus Dumbledore, _Chamber of Secrets_ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com From mindyatime at juno.com Sat Oct 27 23:52:05 2001 From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:52:05 -0400 Subject: Goodbye! Message-ID: <20011027.195216.-325195.1.MindyAtime@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28301 Dear Everyone, The time has come for me to say goodbye to the group. I will have no choice but to unsubscribe. This is such a vibrant, high volume list, that it has simply become a pressure to keep afloat. This Friday I printed out digests #1319-1336, from last Friday to this Thursday, and it took me hours to read them. I guess I am not such an HP enthusiast anymore, as I started finding some of the topics repititious and all... There are many other interests in my life taking up my time, and it's getting impossible to remain part of the group. I guess I wil rebuscribe again when book #5 will be published. I really enjoyed my time here. HP4GU also taught me how yahoogroups are run, and I was able to establish one of my own. It does not have 2300+ members, only 30, but it is taking up most of my time and therefore some of the others I belong to, have to go... I will leave you all with two comments on those 15 digests I consumed over Shabbos: 1. Rita Skeeter the beetle -- how was she always able to find the targets she was looking for to eavesdrop on? IMHO, it can take a beetle several hours to inch its way towards its destination! For instance, when Hermione picked her up from the windowsill of the hospital wing, didn't it take Rita all day to inch her way across the Hogwarts grounds and up the walls? Or did she come to Hogwarts as herself and transform on grounds? 2. Salazar leaving no heirs aside from Voldy -- I find it a bit preposterous that someone who lived 500 years ago should have only one last remaining heir! Did Salazar have an only child who also had an only child, and so on and so forth all the way to Tom Jr.? Or did all of his descendants die childless? Most of the time a person living 500 years ago has descendants left and right and the family tree is hard to establish... Beats me. I firmly believe that Dumbledore is Harry's great-grandfather, and he doesn't know it. Dumbledore probably had a daughter, the mother of Lily and Petunia. Petunia is at odds with Dumbledore and the magical side of the family, therefore she refused to acknowledge the presence of magic in the world, and has no choice but let Harry attend the academy. Of course Dumbledore wants Harry to be at the Dursleys; it's his only other living descendant... Anyhow, I will wait until the next digest so I can see the replies to my message, and after that, adios, my friends, l'hitraot -- I might come back when the movie comes out. We'll see... it's been fun. Yours, MINDY Proud List Owner and Moderator of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishMusic For JewishMusic Enthusiasts Everywhere From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 00:32:07 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goodbye! In-Reply-To: <20011027.195216.-325195.1.MindyAtime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20011028003207.72536.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28302 The fun is always here! Beetles fly! They have wings under their top shell. Just another thing to think over. You'll get more on your other topics. Hope you do come back! Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Merry Band of Muggles --- "Mindy C.L." wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > The time has come for me to say goodbye to the > group. I will have no > choice but to unsubscribe. This is such a vibrant, > high volume list, that > it has simply become a pressure to keep afloat. This > Friday I printed out > digests #1319-1336, from last Friday to this > Thursday, and it took me > hours to read them. I guess I am not such an HP > enthusiast anymore, as I > started finding some of the topics repititious and > all... There are many > other interests in my life taking up my time, and > it's getting impossible > to remain part of the group. I guess I wil > rebuscribe again when book #5 > will be published. I really enjoyed my time here. > HP4GU also taught me > how yahoogroups are run, and I was able to establish > one of my own. It > does not have 2300+ members, only 30, but it is > taking up most of my time > and therefore some of the others I belong to, have > to go... > > I will leave you all with two comments on those 15 > digests I consumed > over Shabbos: > > 1. Rita Skeeter the beetle -- how was she always > able to find the targets > she was looking for to eavesdrop on? IMHO, it can > take a beetle several > hours to inch its way towards its destination! For > instance, when > Hermione picked her up from the windowsill of the > hospital wing, didn't > it take Rita all day to inch her way across the > Hogwarts grounds and up > the walls? Or did she come to Hogwarts as herself > and transform on > grounds? > > 2. Salazar leaving no heirs aside from Voldy -- I > find it a bit > preposterous that someone who lived 500 years ago > should have only one > last remaining heir! Did Salazar have an only child > who also had an only > child, and so on and so forth all the way to Tom > Jr.? Or did all of his > descendants die childless? Most of the time a person > living 500 years ago > has descendants left and right and the family tree > is hard to > establish... Beats me. > > I firmly believe that Dumbledore is Harry's > great-grandfather, and he > doesn't know it. Dumbledore probably had a daughter, > the mother of Lily > and Petunia. Petunia is at odds with Dumbledore and > the magical side of > the family, therefore she refused to acknowledge the > presence of magic in > the world, and has no choice but let Harry attend > the academy. Of course > Dumbledore wants Harry to be at the Dursleys; it's > his only other living > descendant... > > Anyhow, I will wait until the next digest so I can > see the replies to my > message, and after that, adios, my friends, > l'hitraot -- I might come > back when the movie comes out. We'll see... it's > been fun. > > Yours, > > MINDY > > > Proud List Owner and Moderator of: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishMusic > For JewishMusic Enthusiasts Everywhere > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From doseylel at aol.com Sun Oct 28 01:10:20 2001 From: doseylel at aol.com (doseylel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:10:20 -0000 Subject: Minerva Not In On Black's Secret Message-ID: <9rflts+ki3i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28303 It has always bothered me at the end of GoF, that Dumbledore sends Minerva off before having Sirius transform. She is the Deputy Headmistress, and should something happen to Dumbledore, she would be in charge. Isn't this an important bit of information in the fight against Voldemort? Shouldn't she also know about the Old Crowd? Has anyone else thought that was strange? Leslie From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sun Oct 28 01:16:25 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:16:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Minerva Not In On Black's Secret Message-ID: <105.b6ace54.290cb669@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28304 I never noticed until you mentioned it but it does seem as if Dumbledore sent Minerva away. Perhaps it was a mix between having her actually do the task she was sent out for (calling Hagrid and Olympe to his office) and making almost everyone leave before the confrontation between Snape and Sirius. Although, I'm not exactly sure why Minerva shouldn't be there... ~ Calypso In a message dated 10/27/01 9:10:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, doseylel at aol.com writes: > It has always bothered me at the end of GoF, that Dumbledore sends > Minerva off before having Sirius transform. She is the Deputy > Headmistress, and should something happen to Dumbledore, she would be > in charge. Isn't this an important bit of information in the fight > against Voldemort? Shouldn't she also know about the Old Crowd? Has > anyone else thought that was strange? > > Leslie > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 01:45:40 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goodbye! In-Reply-To: <20011027.195216.-325195.1.MindyAtime@juno.com> Message-ID: <20011028014540.78647.qmail@web14601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28305 --- "Mindy C.L." wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > The time has come for me to say goodbye to the > group. I will have no > choice but to unsubscribe. This is such a vibrant, > high volume list, that > it has simply become a pressure to keep afloat. This > Friday I printed out > digests #1319-1336, from last Friday to this > Thursday, and it took me > hours to read them. I understand totally. Sometimes it's all I can do to keep up! I wish you the best in you endeavors and until you(If) find your way back to us, Goodbye. Laila __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From john at walton.vu Sun Oct 28 01:44:52 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:44:52 +0000 Subject: MOVIE: Draco MalFOY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28306 Yes, MalFOY. I just found it interesting that on the first TV trailer (the one where McGonagall reads out HHR & Draco's names), Draco's name is not pronounced MAL-foy but mal-FOY, much like Stephen Fry's audiobook readings. I think this also has canon evidence, insofar as "Malfoy" means "bad faith" or some other ilk. In French, it would be "Malfoi", which is pronounced malFWAH. Thoughts? --John ____________________________________________ Don't join the book burners. Do not think you are going to conceal thoughts by concealing evidence that they ever existed. -Dwight D Eisenhower John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From margdean at erols.com Sun Oct 28 01:33:05 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:33:05 -0400 Subject: Living With Snape References: <9rfeah+juph@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BDB6051.BD9CD80C@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28307 MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote: > But he's showing sign that he can rise above that. One of the more > admirable things Snape has done in PoA is how he brewed the Wolfsbane > Potion for Lupin even though he hated him, wanted him sacked. It > would have been easy for him to just refuse to do it. (It's not in > my contract, Dumbledore.) or deliberately screw up. (Ooops, I did it > again.) I think Snape simply has too much professional pride to do either of those things. Refusing to make it might imply that this tricky, complicated potion was too difficult for him; deliberately screwing up would look like he failed. Anyway, Snape has a certain underlying integrity and his profession as a potions master is one place it shows up most strongly. I wonder if, perhaps, this is the one aspect of his life that he never =has= screwed up. --Margaret Dean From alexp at alltel.net Sun Oct 28 02:10:17 2001 From: alexp at alltel.net (alexp at alltel.net) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 02:10:17 -0000 Subject: Grizzles on Goblet In-Reply-To: <002a01c15ed6$a45f3600$dc90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9rfpe9+2a4m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28308 What you guys aren't taking into consideration is that JKR is writing thesae books how SHE wants them because SHE wants too. Sure the books had unneccessary stuff, sure they could have been tighter and more concise. But JKR wrote them that way JUST so she could have fun writing. Alex. 92% obsessed P.I.N.E. C.R.A.B S.S.H.I.A.B F.O.P.F G.O.R.E. L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P L.I.G.H.T.R.E.L.I.E.F. L.O.O.N.(Big Time) S.A.D. Canonite DEFINITELY 1980 on-the-fence OBHWF minor subplot shipper "We had to do a report on our hero at school, and I did mine on you, Mr. VanderArk" -- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Cindy: > > But PoA competes nicely with Book 4 for "best written" book in terms of the > outstanding character development, subtle humor, crisp dialogue, and > brilliant use of foreshadowing, not to mention the huge number of > plot balls JKR has in the air at one time.< > > Hmmm. Now, it's a long time since I read stats on this subject, so I could be wrong, but IIRC the next most popular choice for "worst HP book" is GoF, which is the one that gets my vote. I think both PoA *and* CoS are better written than GoF. Much as I love the Yule Ball, find the Harry/Ron fight interesting and revealing, and enjoy Rita and the Moody/Barty performance, the plot of GoF is as holey as a Swiss cheese in a shooting gallery. > > The Triwizard Tournament tasks 2 and 3 as spectator sports? Yeah right. Even HP4GU members were having to strain their imaginations to justify that one. Shutting down Quidditch for a year? How very convenient for JKR. Did we really need those blasted Blast-Ended Skrewts? Thought they were a bit pointless and unfunny, myself. 150 pages on the World Quidditch Cup? I'll buy the defence that there are a lot of important issues raised in it, but JKR could have been *much* more economical about them (whittle those silly Veela scenes down for a start: all they seem to be doing is setting us up for Fleur, and that could be done in a couple of paragraphs). > > Sofie: > > being 'nackered' is to be extremly tired. I forget that > some english expressions never crossed over to America.< > > I knew what this meant, but I always thought it was "knackered", with a K... isn't it?? > > Tabouli. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tabouli at unite.com.au Sun Oct 28 02:09:50 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:09:50 +1100 Subject: Sirius' defender, hairy Sisters Message-ID: <005801c15f57$31347740$62846fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 28309 JayKay: > There's no evidence anyone went leaping to (Sirius') defence, crying, "No! It's not possible! He'd never do that! There must be some kind of mistake!" Actually, there is, in PoA Ch10, when Madame Rosmerta says "Do you know, I still have trouble believing it (...) Of all the people to go over to the Dark Side, Sirius Black was the last I'd have thought... I mean, I remember him when he was a boy at Hogwarts. If you'd told me then what he was going to become, I'd have said you'd had too much mead." Which brings up something that I'm mildly curious about: how old is Madame Rosmerta? Was she already a barmaid at the Three Broomsticks when Sirius & co were at school? If so, that puts her at least in her thirties, and probably forties. The 13yo Ron clearly has a taste for ogling older women! On a related, albeit risque topic given recent ire on this list, I've been wondering whether the Weird Sisters (all very Shakespearean) are transvestites. I mean, surely "sisters" implies that the band members are female, the Shakespeare reference is to female characters, yet they are all extremely hairy, which suggests they are likely to be male (unless witches are more hirsuite than Muggle women?). Then again, wizards mostly seem to wear pretty unisex clothes, which rather wrecks the point of this. Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com Sun Oct 28 03:11:32 2001 From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 03:11:32 -0000 Subject: hairy Sisters In-Reply-To: <005801c15f57$31347740$62846fcb@price> Message-ID: <9rft14+t84v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28310 Tabouli posted: > On a related, albeit risque topic given recent ire on this list, > I've been wondering whether the Weird Sisters (all very > Shakespearean) are transvestites. I mean, surely "sisters" implies > that the band members are female, the Shakespeare reference is to > female characters, yet they are all extremely hairy, which suggests > they are likely to be male (unless witches are more hirsuite than > Muggle women?). Then again, wizards mostly seem to wear pretty > unisex clothes, which rather wrecks the point of this. Well, one of them is male, at least. It's mentioned in Quidditch Through the Ages. I can't find my copy right now, but if I recall correctly, the mention would be in the section with the profiles of British Quidditch teams. One of the players (Caitlin something-or- other) is mentioned as having a brother who is guitarist for the popular wizarding band the Weird Sisters. I always assumed the name and the appearance of the band was a takeoff on the "hair metal" sort of bands that were popular during the 1980s. Meril reminded slightly of Japanese "visual rock"... From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Oct 28 03:44:32 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:44:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: hairy Sisters In-Reply-To: <9rft14+t84v@eGroups.com> References: <9rft14+t84v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <18481937008.20011027204432@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28311 Saturday, October 27, 2001, 8:11:32 PM, lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com wrote: lnfc> One of the players (Caitlin something-or- lnfc> other) is mentioned as having a brother who is guitarist for the lnfc> popular wizarding band the Weird Sisters. That just means they have at least one male backup musician -- I don't think he's one of the "Weird Sisters" himself... After all, ABBA had other people to play the othr instruments while Bjorn did the guitar, Benny the keyboards, Frida the tamborine, and Agnetha swayed her hips in front of the lucky drummer. -- Dave, who thinks the Weird Sisters should be played by Agnetha, Frida, and Linda Ulvaeus (Agnetha's daughter)... From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Oct 28 03:50:03 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:50:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' defender, hairy Sisters In-Reply-To: <005801c15f57$31347740$62846fcb@price> References: <005801c15f57$31347740$62846fcb@price> Message-ID: <7282267683.20011027205003@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28312 Saturday, October 27, 2001, 7:09:50 PM, Tabouli wrote: T> Which brings up something that I'm mildly curious about: how old is Madame Rosmerta? Was she already a barmaid at the T> Three Broomsticks when Sirius & co were at school? If so, that puts her at least in her thirties, and probably forties. T> The 13yo Ron clearly has a taste for ogling older women! In the first place, we have to remember that wizards and witches age slower than Muggles, so Madam R may still look in her 20's even if she's rising 50... In the second place, in the MWPP era she may have been a young kid working as a waitress after school... And in the third place, I was "ogling" Marlo Thomas and Sally Field when I was 6! -- Dave (Ron defender & Sirius/Rosmerta shipper) From lrcjestes at earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 03:52:50 2001 From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (lrcjestes at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 03:52:50 -0000 Subject: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: <9rf2v5+nelj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rfvei+2otu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28313 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > *heavy sigh* I think I am in desperate need of a new support group > to advocate that Sirius is not seriously bent and a danger to himself > and others, but is simply misunderstood and doesn't always think > things out before acting. Perhaps S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R. (Sirius Is not > Nutters; Instead, Sirius Tried to do Everything Right). > > Count me in on this group. I'm amongst the crowd that think "the prank" was something a foolish 16 (do we know he was even *that* old?) did. And remember...Sirius did not tell Severus to go to the whomping willow, tap the knot and go in." All Sirius did was tell Snape where Lupin went each month. Snape took it upon himself to act on that info. NOw given Sirius knew Snape was the type that probably would...but noone compelled Snape to sneak out of the school one night act on the info provided. I can really hear a teen guy saying "yeah I'll tell you where he went you nosy git" and really not consider the consequences of that statement. Luckily James did. Obviously James was oodles more mature than Sirius in school. There seems to be those who like Snape and those who like Sirius. I'm under the impression that in PoA Sirius has an extreme case of PTSD as parker suggested and anyone who wants a detailed diagnosis let me know (or Monika...are you still here?) There is a character analysis I did on Sirius in the archives somewhere. This explains a lot of Sirius' actions in PoA, but there is no denying that Sirius has a shorter fuse, but I tend to think the anger expressed in PoA is a result of his imprissonment than the result of an indemic character trait. Carole back to deep lurkdom and obsessing about the Outlander books, but couldn't resist a Sirius thread From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 28 07:34:14 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:34:14 -0000 Subject: drink - Snape/Malfoy - Lexicon - Weird Sisters Message-ID: <9rgcdm+v3tl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28314 Susanna/pigwidgeon37 wrote: > Though even this might be preferable to pumpkin juice which I > imagine must be quite horrible... I am sure the pumpkin juice is made by magic and is nothing like the real pulpy liquid that can be squeezed from a pumpkin. I imagine it as being a cold, clear, refreshing, orange colored drink that tastes rather like a pumpkin pie, or a sweet potato pie, i.e. with a spicy taste more complex than just a lot of cinnamon. laoisecronin wrote: > i've just been re-reading ps/ss and i noticed that it says numerous > times that Malfoy was Snapes favorite student! why? I believe that Malfoy really is Snape's favorite student: he's not putting on an act. I believe that Snape likes Lucius in an admiring way and really believes Lucius's tale that he only served Voldemort because of enchantment, and when he made that gesture in GoF when he heard Harry say that Lucius was at the Death Eating meeting in the graveyard, that was Snape's shock and horror to discover that Lucius really is a sincere Death Eater. Therefore he has no reason to hold Lucius against Draco. Once he knows that Lucius *is* a Death Eater, he could just as well be eager to save Draco from joining the Dark Side as to punish Draco for his father's sins. As for why Severus likes/admires Lucius and Draco, chalk it up to Slytherin Chauvinism (Draco earns the House points, at least with his father's gift of Nimbi) plus the same reasons as (some) fanfic writers (like me) go for good!Draco, despite canon: admiration of and attraction towards their social standing, elegance, good looks (at least by comparison to the canon description of the other Slytherins), self-confidence, and wit. Draco DOES say witty things against the Blast Ended Skrewts, but you can replace 'wit' with 'wealth' on the list of characteristics. The attraction to their social standing is snobbery and to their wealth is greed, but there is nothing immoral about attraction to the other characteristics I mentioned. Alex P wrote: > "We had to do a report on our hero at school, and I did mine on > you, Mr. VanderArk" Is that true? How wonderful! But how did you learn enough about Lexicon Steve to do a report on him, other than interviewing him, in which case he would already know about the report? Meril Nymphaea wrote: > Well, one of them is male, at least. It's mentioned in Quidditch > Through the Ages. I *can* find *my* copy: "Pride of Portree ... Their most famous Chaser, Catriona McCormack, captained the team to two League wins in the 1960s, and played for Scotland thirty-six times... Her son, Kirlie, is lead guitarist with the popular wizarding band The Weird Sisters." Does it strike anyone else as strange that Whisp specified that it is a *wizarding* band? Does this imply that it is more common for wizards to be lead guitarist with Muggle bands? Anyway, before QTTA provided the above information, I kept asking whether the members of The Weird Sisters were humans or half-giants or hags or what, but as their lead guitarist is stated to be human, I'm willing to believe that the whole band is human until I'm told otherwise. From monika at darwin.inka.de Sun Oct 28 10:03:18 2001 From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:03:18 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: <9rfvei+2otu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28315 > -----Original Message----- > From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net [mailto:lrcjestes at earthlink.net] > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > > > > *heavy sigh* I think I am in desperate need of a new support group > > to advocate that Sirius is not seriously bent and a danger to > himself > > and others, but is simply misunderstood and doesn't always think > > things out before acting. Perhaps S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R. (Sirius Is not > > Nutters; Instead, Sirius Tried to do Everything Right). > > > > > > Count me in on this group. Me too, please. > I'm amongst the crowd that think "the > prank" was something a foolish 16 (do we know he was even *that* > old?) did. Yes, we do. Snape says at the end of PoA that 'Sirius Black proved he was capable of murder at the age of 16', sorry, can't find the the exact citation right now, but it's after bringing them all up to the castle, when he speaks to Dumbledore. But I also think - like others have already pointed out - that 16 year old boys generally don't think through their actions. I don't believe Sirius is capable of committing a murder. > There seems to be those who like Snape and those who like Sirius. > I'm under the impression that in PoA Sirius has an extreme case of > PTSD as parker suggested and anyone who wants a detailed diagnosis > let me know (or Monika...are you still here?) Of course I am. ;) But hey, I was already sleeping when this discussion took off! I also posted a rather long explanation a few weeks ago when Susanna posted about her serious problems with Sirius, if anyone wants me to elaborate on it again, I will, but I am afraid I'll get a bit repetitious. I'll just say again that fits of blinding rage and aggressiveness are one of the core symptoms of PTSD, *especially* in men. The latter is not just an assumption but has an evolutionary background. It actually dates back to the time when our ancestors where running around the African savannah, and even though Sirius is a wizard, he is still a product of human evolution. Of course everyone can still believe he's just a jerk, but given his "change" of behavior in GoF I think that's wrong. Just my opinion. And I actually don't have any problem with him calling Snape a "slimy, oily, greasy kid". I'm sure he was. So, he's talking about a teacher? I don't have much respect for a teacher who takes his grudges out on his students and who treats Harry like scum just because he didn't like his father. I don't say Snape is really a bad guy, but I strongly dislike him. So it might be true that you can either be a Sirius fan or a Snape fan. Monika ------ Book and movie reviews in English and German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html Harry Potter fanfiction in German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/fanfic From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sun Oct 28 10:46:04 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 05:46:04 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Living With Snape Message-ID: <94.1c08f5ef.290d3bec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28316 I just wanted to comment on the subject line, for the most part... I highly doubt Harry could live with Snape for a couple of reasons, none of which are their differences. If Snape is going to be a spy for Dumbledore, as many (including myself) believe, it would too dangerous and difficult to have a 15-year old living with you. As for the potion making, I agree that Snape has too much pride to purposely screw it up but I still admire the fact that he overcame his differences with Lupin to make him a potion. Although, there are quite a few factors that could contribute to that, such as any attack would be his fault as he screwed up the potion.... Well, I'll stop contradicting myself now and say I love Snape, he's a great guy in my humble opinion. ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sun Oct 28 10:53:14 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 05:53:14 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' defender, hairy Sisters Message-ID: <13c.3938c6e.290d3d9a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28317 I always assumed that it implied Madam Rosmerta went to school with MWPP. She was probably younger or the same age as Sirius, Snape and co. are all about 36 (in the most recent book). Now there's a nice little idea I can add in my fic! Rosmerta at Hogwarts...I'm guessing she was a Gryffindor as she seemed to know Sirius and James well. Ah, the ideas forming in my head... ~ Calypso In a message dated 10/27/01 9:15:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, tabouli at unite.com.au writes: > Actually, there is, in PoA Ch10, when Madame Rosmerta says "Do you know, I > still have trouble believing it (...) Of all the people to go over to the > Dark Side, Sirius Black was the last I'd have thought... I mean, I remember > him when he was a boy at Hogwarts. If you'd told me then what he was going > to become, I'd have said you'd had too much mead." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From monika at darwin.inka.de Sun Oct 28 13:17:17 2001 From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:17:17 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' and Rosmerta's age In-Reply-To: <13c.3938c6e.290d3d9a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28318 > -----Original Message----- > From: Calypso8604 at aol.com [mailto:Calypso8604 at aol.com] > I always assumed that it implied Madam Rosmerta went to school with MWPP. She > was probably younger or the same age as Sirius, Snape and co. are all about > 36 (in the most recent book). Sorry to disappoint you (and maybe discourage your fic :-)), but she also said that Sirius and James always made her laugh when she had them in the pub. So I always assumed she already owned the pub when they were at Hogwarts. That's why she must be older. It doesn't mean she is really old, since wizards age at a slower rate, but definitely older than MWPP. Monika -- Book and movie reviews in English and German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html Harry Potter fanfiction in German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/fanfic From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sun Oct 28 13:22:23 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:22:23 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' and Rosmerta's age Message-ID: <80.122de3fb.290d608f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28319 I was wondering if it said anything like that....I don't have my books handy so I couldn't check it. Well, she's probably in her forties and was a young woman just starting to work when Sirius and James came in. Did it say she actually owned the pub? I thought she only worked there....*sigh* I need my books for reference ad of course I don't have them with me at the moment. ~ Calypso In a message dated 10/28/01 8:16:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, monika at darwin.inka.de writes: > Sorry to disappoint you (and maybe discourage your fic :-)), but she also > said that Sirius and James always made her laugh when she had them > in the pub. So I always assumed she already owned the pub when they > were at Hogwarts. That's why she must be older. It doesn't mean > she is really old, since wizards age at a slower rate, but definitely > older than MWPP. > > Monika > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherratt at mediaone.net Sun Oct 28 15:10:35 2001 From: sherratt at mediaone.net (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:10:35 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Draco MalFOY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rh75b+k1hd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28320 Yes, you're right about the French meaning of Malfoy, and in modern French it would be pronounced "malFWAH". In early French, a "y" often took the place of an "i", so the spelling would have been correct, though the pronunciation would have changed a bit over the centuries. JKR manages to weave two ideas into her use of this name. There is the literal meaning of "bad faith", and also the historical and cultural resonance such a name would have among the English. After the Norman Conquest in 1066, the nobility of England was French, ruling over a conquered Saxon people. To an English ear, a name like "Malfoy" would indicate that the family is very ancient (still holding on to the 11th century spelling) and also aristocratic, a descendant of the nobles who accompanied William the Conqueror. This contrasts the Malfoy family very nicely with the homely, Saxon-sounding names of Potter and Weasley. Actually, a name like Gilderoy would have also fallen into this pattern, but I don't think JKR was using it to get the same message across. I think it is meant to make us think of "gilded", in the sense of painted and prettified, and maybe also a reference to Lockhart's blond hair. In French this wouldn't have been the case, it would have been a corrupted spelling of "Gilles de Roy", or "The King's Man, William". Not at all the meaning of the name in the book. Wanda - > > I think this also has canon evidence, insofar as "Malfoy" means "bad faith" > or some other ilk. In French, it would be "Malfoi", which is pronounced > malFWAH. > > Thoughts? > From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Oct 28 15:41:19 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:41:19 -0000 Subject: Butterbeer; Hermione's age Message-ID: <9rh8uv+i1r7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28321 We have now established that European children are given swimming lessons in whisky from a very early age, while American children are given their first taste of alcohol in a controlled environment at age 40. Drunkenness and and alcoholism are problems in the US and, I am prepared to bet, in all European countries. Certainly they are in the UK, and JKR will be well aware of it. I think Butterbeer is one of those magical what-if things: "wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a drink that gave the pleasure of alcohol, without any of the problems", like flying unaided, and travelling instantly, and cooking with a wave of a wand. But, being JKR, she can never leave well alone, and must start to follow up the implications... so we have Winky, trying to forget her sorrows in Butterbeer. Does this mean that something we can enjoy is always dangerous? What about Cheering Charms - do wizards get addicted? She spoils this line of thought slightly by having Dobby say Butterbeer is strong for elves. Again, if you travel by fireplace, what if one has been blocked off? If you can 'videophone' by fireplace, wouldn't it be fun to pass a piece of toast and eat it too...? But then there is a physical transfer, so that would mean you have something like apparating in Hogwarts - oops, we have ended up somewhere we didn't quite intend to. It's in the nature of her unique combination of fancy, fun, and logic. I think a lot of the things we see as inconsistencies or Flints are like this - she invents the puter outer as a piece of pure fun, and then we logically point out that a wand would do just as well. Because JKR is herself logical and follows up the implications of her ideas we get a lot of this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ On Hermione's age, a couple of minor points. One, my apologies to Ebony, Penny, and Barb for mistakenly referring to them as 79ers; they are of course not whiny ninies but weighty eighties. Two, Ebony said, can we agree to differ (to Jonathan). One of the great things about a list like this is meeting people who think so differently. It's just tempting to keep picking at the differences until we get to the bottom of them. David From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 28 16:01:33 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:01:33 -0000 Subject: Quiddich Story Lines Message-ID: <9rha4t+89q2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28322 Like many on the list, I am expecting Quiddich to appear in OoP. I was wondering what plot lines might make sense, particularly in light of the Quiddich story lines we've already seen. In PS/SS, we see Harry catch the snitch in his mouth, and then later, catch it in his hand. He also almost gets thrown off of his broom. In CoS, he is injured by the rogue bludger. In PoA, he falls off his broom, Wood expresses doubt about whether Harry can continue as seeker, and Harry learns to fight dementors. Then, he rides his Firebolt against Cho and beats her. Then he rides against Malfoy and beats him. In GoF, the QWC. So what's left to do? So far, Harry has won every time except when he fell off his broom in PoA. I wonder if it would work for Harry to start getting a taste of defeat, perhaps by losing a match or two against a new seeker character(s). (I don't know if this is even credible if Harry is riding a Firebolt). The new Gryffindor captain (Katie, Alicia?) could start to question whether Harry is too distracted to get the job done, and there could be tryouts. Ron would be conflicted about whether to challenge Harry for his seeker spot. Yada yada yada. Any thoughts about how Quiddich could stay fresh in the next book? Cindy (as usual, just passing the time until OoP) From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Sun Oct 28 16:10:52 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:10:52 -0500 Subject: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05576@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 28323 Hi, Folks! In response to many posts about Sirius's behaviour in the Shrieking Shack, MMMfanfic wrote: > > Sirius: I think most Sirius fans subscribe to the theory of Post- > traumatic syndrome(sp?)for his actions in PoA. And there is some > credit to this theory, namely, he was able to assess Snape in a semi- > fair manner in GoF. At least he didn't come right out and say that > Snape is not to be trusted, period. But I would never forgive > the 'Slimy, oily, greasy kid' remark. What does that ever have any > bearing on adult Snape? And Parker said something similar. First, I completely agree with this assessment of Sirius's disorder. He absolutely shows signs of PTSS, especially in terms of his violent outbursts. Every time he exhibits signs of murderous rage--slashing the Fat Lady's portrait, choking Harry--it is when he is denied his goal or when he encounters them as obstacles. As far as slashing Ron's curtains, I believe he was so close to success, he simply snapped for a moment. (Ron's scream not only shook him out of his rage, but made him realise Scabbers wasn't there. Could also have been a reality check: "Oh [expletive deleted!] I almost hurt someone who wasn't Peter!") As far as the "greasy-haired kid" remark, come on. It's a perennial problem, on many levels. As someone else has pointed out, Sirius is frozen 12 years in the past, due to his imprisonment. So he has no new impression of Snape to balance the old (and let's face it, has Snape really changed that much? He would hardly be voted the "most changed" at the Hogwarts class of '76 reunion). That's one. Second, isn't it true for many people that the image of the child never quite gets replaced by the adult? What I mean is, people who've known one since childhood sometimes have trouble allowing that person to age and grow in their estimation--regardless of the evidence that they have done so. True, this is usually the case when those judging are older than the person judged, but again, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Carole offered further defense: > Count me in on this group. I'm amongst the crowd that think "the > prank" was something a foolish 16 (do we know he was even *that* > old?) did. And remember...Sirius did not tell Severus to go to the > whomping willow, tap the knot and go in." All Sirius did was tell > Snape where Lupin went each month. Snape took it upon himself to act > on that info. NOw given Sirius knew Snape was the type that probably > would...but noone compelled Snape to sneak out of the school one > night act on the info provided. I can really hear a teen guy > saying "yeah I'll tell you where he went you nosy git" and really not > consider the consequences of that statement. Luckily James did. > Obviously James was oodles more mature than Sirius in school. > First off, we can conclude that he was 16 or thereabouts, if Snape's statement is accurate: "Sirius Black proved he was capable of murder at 16." Second, I have also said this before, but I believe that is almost exactly what happened, and that Sirius has had the rest of his life to regret that moment. I believe his strong reaction to any defense of Snape is hot and defensive because in his heart, he knows he screwed up bigtime. He has to live with the fact--the realization--that he's a person who can do something like that, even to someone he loathes as much as Snape. I think it was a rude awakening for him--but he's not yet in a place where he can articulate his remorse, owing to the PTSS. This brings up another point about Snape in the Shrieking Shack scene. All year, he's been suppressing his hatred and bitterness (okay, barely, but...), and as others have pointed out, he has clung to his professionalism and his respect for Dumbledore to get himself through. Lapses aside, Snape has performed admirably with respect to his obligations to Lupin, especially in the face of his fears. Now, we come to the night Black takes action, kidnaps Ron, and lures Harry to the Shrieking Shack, presumably to witness Pettigrew's capture. Lupin joins them. Snape, acting responsibly, goes to find Lupin, sees the tunnel in use. And what does he do? He also doesn't summon Dumbledore. He immediately goes, he thinks, to aid the kids. Put yourself in Snape's shoes for a moment. I'm betting he's got a little case of PTSS himself at this point. I would be very surprised if Snape had ever ventured into that tunnel again after the night of Sirius's prank. A life-threatening, incredibly traumatic experience met him in that tunnel. The two people he holds responsible for the attempt on his life (in his opinion), are down there, and one of them has every chance of reverting to wolf form--without the capability for rational thought--before he can extricate the students, and himself. The tunnel is dark, damp, cold. He's walking into probable death, pitting himself against a dangerous criminal and a fully-fledged monster. He has to be flashing back to his last experience in the tunnel. He has to be feeling just as frightened and worried and anxious as he was at sixteen--more, in fact, because this time, he _knows_ what's at the other end of the tunnel. It wouldn't surprise me one little bit to learn that Snape was doing some regressing of his own in that shack. The scene that Harry, Ron, and Hermione witness between Snape, Lupin, and Black isn't just the argument of adults, it's a faceoff among teenagers all over again. It's small wonder to me that Snape is so irrational in that place, at that time. Add his analytic mind in the background, furiously counting seconds, wondering how much longer he has to get the students away from Lupin before he transforms... well, he's under a lot of pressure. I am one of those folks on this list who truly likes both Sirius and Severus. I see where both are coming from--they're really not all that different, folks--and HRH are simply caught in the middle of this ~20 year old issue. Gwen (who thinks that wizards could use a little help from clinical psychologists now and again) From alexp at alltel.net Sun Oct 28 16:11:48 2001 From: alexp at alltel.net (alexp at alltel.net) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:11:48 -0000 Subject: drink - Snape/Malfoy - Lexicon - Weird Sisters In-Reply-To: <9rgcdm+v3tl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rhao4+evv8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28324 > > "We had to do a report on our hero at school, and I did mine on > > you, Mr. VanderArk" It was a L.O.O.N. joke. In CoS, dudley says the same thing, except abou Mr. Mason. Geez.:) Alex. (Who forgot S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R.) From JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com Sun Oct 28 16:16:12 2001 From: JUSDUCKY1 at aol.com (Tessie) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:16:12 -0000 Subject: Hear the soundtrack Message-ID: <9rhb0c+u3vt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28325 EEK!!! On aol, you can hear the entire HP Soundtrack for free and believe you me it is friggin AWESOME!!!!!! I am trying to find a way to link it to everyone but for those with aol go to keyword: soundtracks & more It is wonderful!!!!! Tessie *bouncing* From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 28 16:39:01 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:39:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05576@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9rhcb6+5g76@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28326 Gwen wrote: > Now, we come to the night Black takes action, kidnaps Ron, and lures Harry > to the Shrieking Shack, presumably to witness Pettigrew's capture. Lupin > joins them. Snape, acting responsibly, goes to find Lupin, sees the tunnel > in use. And what does he do? He also doesn't summon Dumbledore. He > immediately goes, he thinks, to aid the kids. > I had a different take on what Snape is thinking when he goes to the Shrieking Shack. After he takes off the Invisibility Cloak, Snape says: "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did . . . lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight." Now that I look at Snape's statement again, it seems a little strange, doesn't it? Snape's statement that Lupin went out of sight suggests the Map doesn't display the path all the way to the Shrieking Shack. So Snape can't know that Black, Pettigrew, or HRH are in the Shrieking Shack until Snape arrives there himself. (Snape saw Lupin go out of sight, so everyone else was already off the Map by the time Snape saw it.) Perhaps we should rule out the possibility that Snape goes to the Shrieking Shack to assist HRH or to capture Black, because he doesn't have any idea they are there. But what does Snape know for a fact when he leaves Lupin's office and heads off for the Whomping Willow? Snape knows that Lupin is headed toward the Shrieking Shack, headed toward the place Snape knows Lupin used to use for his transformations. Snape also knows Lupin failed to take his potion. Snape also knows (probably) that a full moon is due. It would be reasonable for Snape to conclude that Lupin is headed for the Shrieking Shack because Lupin suddenly realized he isn't safe, and wishes to avoid transforming in the castle and endangering others. So what is going on here, and why does Snape follow Lupin? Is Snape behaving the same way he did years ago, snooping around after Lupin, hoping to catch him doing something untrustworthy? Well, Snape did take the Invisibility Cloak with him, so he certainly had the intention of "snooping" or observing Lupin while Lupin doesn't know Snape is watching. Although I had previously given Snape credit for rushing to the Shrieking Shack in his role as watchdog over the trio, I am now starting to think Snape's actions are just another attempt to harrass Lupin again. Does anyone have a theory about what exactly Snape is thinking here? Cindy (who is still holding a mini-grudge that Snape criticized Lupin's teaching methods in front of the students) From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Sun Oct 28 16:42:49 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:42:49 -0500 Subject: Lawbreaking; Minerva; MOVIE: Malfoy pronunciation; Pumpkin ju ice Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05577@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 28327 Greetings again! Having dispensed my insights on Sirius and Severus in a long post, here's a lot of little posts on various topics. 1. Lawbreaking. Dave said: > > 2. Voldy releases all his old supporters, and, seeing what a pity it > is to let that nice, big fort go to waste, he uses it to lock up the > good guys (!!!) > Well, I do think Voldy will arrange with the Dementors to release any remaining, living supporters from Azkaban, or else convince them to abandon the prison altogether, allowing all the convicts incarcerated there the chance to get away. I don't think he'll replace the prisoners with hostages of his own. So I remain skeptical as to whether this would bring Harry there. My reason is this: at the moment, Voldemort's greatest asset is that the Ministry doesn't believe he's back. If (big if, I know) he can cause his movements to occur without attracting undue attention, he could infiltrate a great deal without incurring a full-scale mobilization of wizards. OTOH, maybe the fall of Azkaban will be his new big comeback moment. 2. What Minerva knows and doesn't know. Leslie observed: > > It has always bothered me at the end of GoF, that Dumbledore sends > Minerva off before having Sirius transform. She is the Deputy > Headmistress, and should something happen to Dumbledore, she would be > in charge. Isn't this an important bit of information in the fight > against Voldemort? Shouldn't she also know about the Old Crowd? Has > anyone else thought that was strange? Two things. First, the best way to keep Sirius safe is to let as few people as necessary in on the secret of his identity. That said, I think it's possible that she knows already. Dumbledore has had a year to fill her in on things, if she needs to know. Either way, the tasks he needs her to do at the time may be more important in his estimation than her witnessing the "reconciliation" between Snape and Black. 3. MOVIE: Malfoy Pronunciation. John Walton wrote: > > I just found it interesting that on the first TV trailer (the > one where > McGonagall reads out HHR & Draco's names), Draco's name is > not pronounced > MAL-foy but mal-FOY, much like Stephen Fry's audiobook readings. > Well, I just listened to the trailer about 6 times in a row. Smith puts a definite stress on the "foy," but I'm not convinced it's more stress than the first syllable, "Mal." I think (emphasis on think) that she's simply being very deliberate and marking each syllable, as with the first name. She hits all four syllables very hard, almost over-enunciating them. It's possible, certainly, but I'll withhold judgment until I hear at least one other character pronounce it with a more than slight emphasis on Foy. 4. Pumpkin juice. Rita Winston wrote: > > I am sure the pumpkin juice is made by magic and is nothing like the > real pulpy liquid that can be squeezed from a pumpkin. I imagine it > as being a cold, clear, refreshing, orange colored drink that tastes > rather like a pumpkin pie, or a sweet potato pie, i.e. with a spicy > taste more complex than just a lot of cinnamon. > Agreed. I picture pumpkin juice more like a pumpkin-pie flavoured cider. Gwen (who hopes these topics garner more response than her long, accurate treatise on butterbeer) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 28 16:56:52 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:56:52 -0000 Subject: Lawbreaking Among HP Adult Characters In-Reply-To: <15567541216.20011027164439@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9rhdck+rma9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28328 Dave, thanks for the input. Here are a few reactions, and I hope this doesn't get too unwieldy to understand. Cindy wrote:> Dumbledore: aiding and abetting Black's escape; thwarting Buckbeak's > execution; encouraging breaking rules on time turner use; use of > Veritaserum; spreading word of Voldemort's return at MoM and Hogwarts > (which may break the Code of Wizarding Secrecy); maybe sending envoys > to the giants. > Dave added: > Haboring a mad and probably dangerous parselmouth (from MoM's POV). > Cindy wrote: Snape: Provided the Veritaserum. Failed to blow the whistle on Black. > > Dave added: Threatened a student with Veritaserum. Cindy wrote: > McGonagal: ... Also obtained the Time Turner > for a student, promising only to allow her to use it for her studies. > Dave wrote: > This was authorized by the MoM, not criminal act. > McGonagal had to write all kinds of letters to get the time-turner, explaining how Hermione would use it. I would assume from those statements that McGonagal is responsible for supervising Hermione's use of the time-turner, and is also vulnerable to the false accusations that McGonagal was aware of Hermione's and Dumbledore's plan to misuse it. BTW, Dumbledore seems to have acted to keep McGonagal untainted by his activities. He dismissed her before Black transformed in GoF, so she isn't part of the conspiracy to help Black stay in hiding. Cindy wrote: > Molly, Arthur and Bill Weasley: Undermining Fudge at MoM with news of > Voldemort. > Dave wrote: > If any of the above is sent to Azakaban for *that*, then Fudge is as > evil as V. You know, you have a point there. I think Fudge's reaction is a real wild-card. He changed his loyalty to and opinion of Harry pretty quickly. We know Fudge already isn't fond of Arthur and hasn't promoted Arthur. Maybe Fudge would be willing to scapegoat Arthur to save his own political hide. Oh, and let's not forget that Molly and Arthur are also on the hook for bewitching a Ford Anglia, and lots of people know they did it because Ron flew the tree into the Whomping Willow. > Cindy C wrote: > Hagrid: Illegal dragon breeding. > Dave added: > Illegal magical cross-breeding (i.e. the Skrewts). Yes, and I forgot apparating without a license. I assume one must be a fully qualified wizard to get a license to apparate. Hagrid appears to apparate when he leaves Harry after they visit Diagon Alley. > > That said, I see two other possible scenarios that might bring Harry > to Azkaban: > > 1. Dumbledore and McGonnegal (and Snape?) are sent to A as part of a > "Saturday Night Massacure" when they fail to follow some Ministry > command from on high (maybe to expel that "mad and possibly dangerous" > parselmouth named Harry Potter). > > Or: > > 2. Voldy releases all his old supporters, and, seeing what a pity it > is to let that nice, big fort go to waste, he uses it to lock up the > good guys (!!!) > > Comments? > > On No. 2, I don't see Voldemort locking up members of the opposition. I think they'd be dispatched right away, not imprisoned. But then again, Voldemort doesn't always follow the Evil Overlord Manual, does he? Cindy (noting that Flitwick and Sprout appear to have clean records) From anneferrel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 17:11:28 2001 From: anneferrel at yahoo.com (anneferrel at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:11:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) In-Reply-To: <9rhcb6+5g76@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rhe80+3l1i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28329 > I had a different take on what Snape is thinking when he goes to the > Shrieking Shack. After he takes off the Invisibility Cloak, Snape > says: > > "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your > potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I > did . . . lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain > map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you > running along this passageway and out of sight." If Snape was able to see Lupin on the map, at least up to the point that he entered the Shrieking Shack, it would seem that he would have noticed Harry, Ron, Black, and Peter on the map as well (as long as he looked at the map before they all entered the shack). I'm wondering if he only saw Lupin on the map because the others were already in the shack, and went after him as a combination of duty (to give Lupin the potion) and a combination of wanting to 'catch him' and prove that Lupin is a danger to have at Hogwarts. I could imagine Snape arriving at the Willow and noticing Harry's invisibility cloak. Seeing that, and not knowing that Black and Wormtail were inside, he might think that Harry had gone in after soon-to-be-werewolf Lupin, and was now in the same danger Snape had experienced years ago when Sirius tricked him. So now Snape's motivations would change. Could he have gone in with the intent of SAVING Harry, maybe as a way to repay his debt to James? He could also have gone in to catch Harry breaking rules and Lupin posing danger to a student. In either case, Snape would win because he'd come out as the hero or the upstanding teacher, while Harry and Lupin would be in trouble. As an aside, I have to ask how we are able to see the invisibility cloak? Does it only become invisibile when it is put on? I recall that the owner of Flourish and Blotts complained about losing copies of the Invisible book of Invisibility. Curious. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 28 17:13:59 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Oct 2001 17:13:59 -0000 Subject: File - netiquette2.txt Message-ID: <1004289239.35939401.14492.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28330 ****NETIQUETTE TIPS FOR HP for GROWNUPS**** Harry Potter for Grown Ups is a very high-volume list; so it's important that members observe a few rules to help us all navigate through the ocean of messages. Members, new and old, are requested to observe certain rules of 'netiquette' and good practice, as outlined below. ATTENTION! Please note that we now have separate club areas for OT posts and Announcements: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements You will need to join OT Chatter if you want to submit an off-topic message to the group. 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This will make it much easier to read and help in getting across your point. Please avoid using all lower case letters or, worse still, all CAPITAL LETTERS. ***BE CONSIDERATE OF OTHER MEMBERS' FEELINGS If you disagree with someone's message, no matter how strongly, remember to respect the other person's right to his or her own opinion. If you do wish to refute the post, do so gently, by building up your own case, rather than just knocking down the other person's. And never attack your fellow club members (name calling, personal remarks, etc). Thanks!! >From your Magical Moderators HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Oct 28 17:13:59 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Oct 2001 17:13:59 -0000 Subject: File - VFAQ.htm Message-ID: <1004289239.35939220.14492.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28331 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eocruz at ibmsd.com Sun Oct 28 17:00:29 2001 From: eocruz at ibmsd.com (Edwin Orlando O Cruz) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 01:00:29 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 1102 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28332 Thank you for your message. I will cease to be connected with this company so please direct your mail messages to edthesp at yahoo.com. From laurence59 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 17:51:37 2001 From: laurence59 at yahoo.com (laurence59 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:51:37 -0000 Subject: Potion Brewing? Message-ID: <9rhgj9+7ipa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28333 Could a muggle brew potions given the right equipment. I know snape said in ps/ss that 'you wouldn't think this magic... there is no silly want waving...'. So could any old fool when given a couldren and different ingredients make magical potions? ~Laurence From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 28 18:13:51 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:13:51 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Chapter Ten Summary and Questions Message-ID: <9rhhsv+5df1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28334 I have to go to work tonight, so I won't be able to post at a normal time tomorrow, so, here ya go :) If they (chp. 10 & 11 summaries) suck, I'm sorry! Here goes nothing! Chapter Ten ? Hallowe'en Much to Malfoy's chagrin, Harry and Ron turn up at breakfast the morning after the supposed duel. Meeting three-headed dogs appears to be their idea of a good time. Harry had told Ron about his first trip to Gringotts where Hagrid removed a very small parcel from a vault. They decided all they knew about it was that it was about two inches long and was either very valuable or very dangerous or as Harry points out, " both." Hermione and Neville didn't share their enthusiasm and appeared to have no desire to meet the dog again and Hermione was now speaking to neither of them. While trying to think of something to get back at Malfoy, the opportunity drops in to Harry's lap a week later; Owl Post delivers him a long skinny package and a letter. Fortunately, he opens the letter first (from Prof. McGonagall) that tells him not to open the package at the table, which is his new Nimbus Two Thousand broomstick, and to meet Oliver Wood on the quidditch pitch that evening. As he and Ron attempt to jet upstairs to open it, they are met by Malfoy and his cronies, who point out that first years aren't allowed to have broomsticks and Harry would be quite in for it. As words are exchanged, Prof. Flitwick shows up and Malfoy wastes no time pointing out Harry's broomstick. Prof. Flitwick who had prior knowledge of the delivery smiles and asks what kind it is. As Harry replies, he also points out that it is thanks to Malfoy that he got it in the first place. He and Ron head upstairs where they encounter Hermione who chastises them for being pleased about a reward for rule breaking. Ron blows her off and they head to classes. Harry spends the entire day thinking about his new broomstick and when they finally get the chance to open it, both he and Ron are deeply impressed by it. Leaving Ron behind, Harry heads off to the quidditch pitch for the first time. Before Wood arrives, Harry takes a spin on his new broom, thoroughly enjoying every second. Wood arrives and explains the fundamentals of quidditch to Harry, who struggles to retain every ounce of information. Because it is too dark, Wood substitutes golf balls for the Golden Snitch and Harry has no problem catching them all, much to Wood's delight. Wood tells Harry they're bound to get the Quidditch Cup this year and he wouldn't be surprised if Harry was a better player than Ron's older brother Charlie. Hallowe'en finds Harry very busy with homework and quidditch practise. He also reflects on how Hogwarts feels much more like a home than Privet Drive ever had. Harry is enjoying his classes more now, since they have mastered the basics. In Charms class, Prof. Flitwick announces they are going to make things fly. Harry gets partnered with Seamus Finnigan and much to Ron's dismay he gets Hermione. They start the lesson and Hermione points out to Ron that he is doing it wrong. He tells her to do it, which she does and catches the attention of Prof. Flitwick who is delighted. As they leave class, Ron says not-so-nice things about Hermione, which she overhears. Harry notices that she is crying and this makes Ron uncomfortable, but he tries to blow it off. Hermione doesn't appear at their next class and isn't seen the rest of the day. That evening on the way to the Hallowe'en feast, Harry and Ron overhear 2 girls saying that Hermione was in the girls toilets and was crying. Ron's feeling of discomfort disappears as soon as they enter the Great hall. The Hall is extravagantly decorated and they being to dine. During the meal, Prof. Quirrell runs in, tells Prof. Dumbledore there is a troll in the dungeons and passes out cold. Dumbledore instructs the prefects to lead their houses back to the common rooms. Harry and Ron suddenly remember Hermione, sot hey set off to find and warn her. Harry and Ron encounter Snape heading toward the third floor, when they smell the troll nearby. They see it at the end of the hall, it heads into a room that has a key in the lock. Harry and Ron lock the troll in and then realize they have locked it in the girls toilets with Hermione inside. They open the door back up and proceed to get the trolls attention away from Hermione so she can get out. She is terrified and doesn't move. They manage to get the troll knocked out, with Ron using the charm they had just learned. The Prof.'s show up and before Ron and Harry have the chance to think they are going to be expelled, Hermione says they were looking for her because she had gone looking for the troll herself. Prof. McGonagall admonishes Hermione and takes away points, and praises Harry and Ron, who are given points. They all head back up to the common room where we find the famous line: " from that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them." Questions 1. Do you think it is in this chapter that Malfoy decides Harry is the bane of his existence and why or why not? 2. Where does Wood get a bunch of golf balls? There is no mention of wizards playing golf anywhere and he doesn't know about basketball, why would he know about golf. 3. Why do you think Ron felt badly about what he said about Hermione? Is it one of those 3rd grade things I like you so I'll beat you up? 4. Prof. Quirrell tells Dumbledore about the troll and then faints. If you were in his DADA class, would you really be able to respect him as an authority on Dark Arts/Creatures anymore? 5. Ron is able to perform the spell in the toilets he wasn't able to perform in class. Is this a case of `talent appears in stressful situations' or just pure luck? 6. Hermione has endured a lot of hurtful remarks and treatment from Ron, why does she defend he and Harry? From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 28 18:17:12 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:17:12 -0000 Subject: PS/SS Chapter Eleven Summary and Questions Message-ID: <9rhi38+ttee@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28335 Chapter Eleven ? Quidditch Heading into November we find the weather turning colder and Quidditch season quickly approaching. The team has decided that Harry playing Seeker should be kept a secret, but as with any good secret, it leaks out. Harry is quite glad to be friends with Hermione at this point as he needs all the help he can staying on top of his homework while juggling quidditch practice. She also lends him a copy of Quidditch Through the Ages, from which he learns quite a bit about the history of his new sport. The day before the match Harry, Ron and Hermione are standing in the courtyard, keeping warm with flames in a jar, provided by Hermione, which may or may not be legal. Prof. Snape sees them and comes over. They hide the flames, but Snape sees Harry's copy of QTTA and takes it away, as well as points from Gryffindor for having a book out of the library. They notice Prof. Snape is limping and hope his leg hurts. Later that evening, in the midst of doing homework, Harry decides to go and see if Prof. Snape will give him the book back. He heads to the staff room where he discovers Mr. Filch wrapping Prof. Shape's rather mangled leg with bandages. He overhears Snape wondering how you can keep an eye on all three heads at once. As he tries to sneak back out, Snape catches him and orders him out when Harry requests the book back. Harry hurries back to the common room to tell Ron and Hermione about what he saw. Hermione defends Snape saying that no teacher would try and steal what Dumbledore was trying to protect. The next morning brings a very not hungry Harry to the dining table. He is quite nervous about the match. In the changing room Oliver Wood gives the Gryffindor team his usual pep talk and they head out to the pitch, where Harry finds quite a bit of support from Gryffindor. The match begins and we are introduced to Lee Jordan's rather amusing commentary, occasionally edited by Prof. McGonagall. Hagrid comes up to watch with Ron and Hermione where they witness a foul from Slytherin against Harry. In the air, Harry discovers his broom is not acting properly and he no longer has control over it. It seems to be trying to buck him off. As the others notice this, Hagrid points out that nothing but `powerful Dark Magic' can interfere with a broomstick. Hermione quickly scans the crowd and sees Snape with his eyes locked on Harry muttering under his breath. Hermione takes off toward Snape, knocking Prof. Quirrell over in the process. She conjures a flame on Snapes robes and this forces him to break eye contact with Harry. She scoops up the flames and heads back to her seat. Harry speeds toward the ground and as he lands coughs, and the Golden Snitch pops out of his mouth. Gryffindor are awarded the win, 170-60, despite protests from the Slytherin captain that Harry didn't catch it he nearly swallowed it. Harry, meanwhile, is in Hagrid's hut being told what had happened. Hagrid asks what is going on and Harry tells him that Snape tried to steal what the three-headed dog was guarding on Hallowe'en. Hagrid asks how they know about Fluffy, but doesn't get an answer because of their astonishment that a vicious three-headed dog is named Fluffy. Hagrid tells them the dog is his and he was lent to Dumbledore to protect something, but does not say what. He tells the kids that it is top secret and they state that Snape is trying to steal it. Hagrid says that Snape, nor any other Hogwarts teacher, would try and steal it. Hermione questions why Snape was just trying to kill Harry. Hagrid is angry and says he doesn't know why Harry's broom would act like that, but Snape wouldn't try and kill a student. Harry, Ron and Hermione then learn a new piece of the puzzle as Hagrid tells to leave it alone because what Fluffy is guarding is between Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel. Questions 1. If you were brand new to the wizarding world and a brand new seeker and you read that the most serious quidditch accidents happened to people playing your position, would you reconsider playing? 2. Snape takes away points for having a library book "outside the school". Wouldn't all the grounds be considered "the school"? Is he just being mean? 3. If Snape took points away for a library book, why didn't he take points away for being in the staff room, especially when he saw what he did? 4. Earlier in the chapter, they decide that having flames in a jar wouldn't be allowed. Why do they not have a problem with Hermione performing a charm to make paint flash? Is it not the same kind of principle? (Wouldn't they be much more likely to be questioned in front of that many people than they would by themselves?) 5. For most sports events you have the announcers' booth with microphones and such, but we know they wouldn't work at Hogwarts. What does Lee Jordan use to commentate? 6. Hermione gets to Snape and light her little fire. He notices it and then she scoops it back up and leaves. How does she do that? How does Snape notice he is on fire, but not notice Hermione crouching by his side? 7. What does a Golden Snitch taste like? 8. And a random question for anyone that has ever done a summary. Do you use MS Word? And if so, did you add all those words it didn't recognize? From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Oct 28 18:25:44 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:25:44 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) In-Reply-To: <9rhcb6+5g76@eGroups.com> References: <9rhcb6+5g76@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <170134817763.20011028102544@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28336 Sunday, October 28, 2001, 8:39:01 AM, Cindy C. wrote: CC> Cindy (who is still holding a mini-grudge that Snape criticized CC> Lupin's teaching methods in front of the students) My (Snape-like) 11th grade English teacher was always criticizing how our (Lupin-like) 10th grade English teacher did things in front of his former students. I'm not sure what my point is... -- Dave (Whose Snape-like teachers outnumbered the Lupin-like ones.) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Oct 28 18:27:54 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:27:54 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quiddich Story Lines In-Reply-To: <9rha4t+89q2@eGroups.com> References: <9rha4t+89q2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <11134948231.20011028102754@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28337 Sunday, October 28, 2001, 8:01:33 AM, Cindy C. wrote: CC> I wonder if it would work for Harry to CC> start getting a taste of defeat, perhaps by losing a match or two CC> against a new seeker character(s). (I don't know if this is even CC> credible if Harry is riding a Firebolt). Maybe dear old Poppy Malfoy will buy the Slytherin team a squadron of Firebolt Mark II's... -- Dave From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 28 18:58:38 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:58:38 -0000 Subject: (FANFIC) Re: Quiddich Story Lines In-Reply-To: <9rha4t+89q2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rhkgu+uadm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28338 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > So what's left to do? So far, Harry has won every time except when > he fell off his broom in PoA. I wonder if it would work for Harry > to start getting a taste of defeat, I wrote a fanfic with some Quidditch ideas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction/files/Catlady%27s%20Storie s/Quidditch.htm If there is Quidditch in Book 5, the Gryffindor team will need a new Keeper as well as a new Captain. I assume there will be some kind of try-outs for the positions (in Book 1, among the announcements at one meal is that students who want to try out for their House teams should see Madam Hooch, altho' Harry gets the Seeker position without try-outs). I assume that Ron the Quidditch nut will try out for the position. In case the reason Ron hasn't tried to get on the team because is lack of money for a broomstick rather than lack of an opening on the team, I supplied him with a broomstick - money might not even be an issue, as there have been theories posted about 1) every student who gets onto the first string of their House team automatically has one broomstick provided by the school (so the only unusual thing about HP's Nimbus 2000 was that he was a first-year) but no upgrades (hence the need for Lucius to pay to replace Slytherin's broomsticks with Nimbus 2001s) nor even replacements for broken ones (like H's in PoA), or 2) the Weasley parents (and older brothers) will be able to afford a new broomstick for Ron now (with fewer brothers that have to be supported by the parents now that they are grown up and have jobs of their own, and more brothers who now are in a position to contribute financially). In my fic, Ron gets the position and is great at it. He could have gotten the position and been dreadful and let the other team score that they won despite Harry catching the Snitch, leading to fight between Ron and Harry. And another plot line that I did NOT put in my fic is Ron's various forms of angst if he doesn't win the try-outs, if he is defeated by (that is, the Keeper position goes to: A Muggle-born such as Dean Thomas. Dean has been stated to be tall, which I think would be good for Keeper, and if he is sports-mad rather than merely soccer-mad he would adore Quidditch by this time. Ron has never felt any of this nonsense about Pure Blood before, but would this defeat cause resentment that would stress his tolerance? A girl, such as Lavender Brown. There seems to be not so much sexism in the wizarding world, but boys and girls could still have some gender issues. A younger student, such as one of the first-years we saw sorted in GoF, now second-year and eligible for the House team: for an almost-grown-up to be defeated at athleticism (other than girls' gymnastics) by a teeny-bopper must burn with shame. A Harry's year Gryffindor girl who is so unpopular with her housemates and classmates that we readers haven't even heard her name yet, perhaps something of a Moaning Myrtle appearance and personality, who suddenly goes from Ugly Duckling to Popular Swan when she turns into a Quidditch star. EVERYONE, not just Ron, would have issues when boys start massively chasing a girl whose lanky figure and lanky hair they previously ignored or occasionally mocked. The girls who made fun of her spotty skin would be furious. Hermione would not be pleased that a not-good student who mocked her for being a brain, grind, teacher's pet suddenly has acolytes to assist her mockery. GINNY! Who is Younger and a Girl and His Own SISTER, plus using all those practices to make time with Harry. From lucy at luphen.co.uk Sun Oct 28 19:12:50 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:12:50 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Living With Sirius References: Message-ID: <004801c15fe4$8fa4a9c0$52ae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28339 > > > *heavy sigh* I think I am in desperate need of a new support group > > > to advocate that Sirius is not seriously bent and a danger to > > himself > > > and others, but is simply misunderstood and doesn't always think > > > things out before acting. Perhaps S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R. (Sirius Is not > > > Nutters; Instead, Sirius Tried to do Everything Right). > > > > > > > > > > Count me in on this group. > > Me too, please. Me too, me too!! > > > And I actually don't have any problem with him calling Snape a > "slimy, oily, greasy kid". I'm sure he was. So, he's talking about > a teacher? I don't have much respect for a teacher who takes his > grudges out on his students and who treats Harry like scum just > because he didn't like his father. I don't say Snape is really a bad > guy, but I strongly dislike him. So it might be true that you can > either be a Sirius fan or a Snape fan. I don't think Sirius should treat Snape with respect just because he's a teacher - after all, it's not like Snape has authority over him. It's just two people of the same age who dislike each other. > Lucy L.O.O.N and prospective S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R member From catlady at wicca.net Sun Oct 28 19:36:41 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:36:41 -0000 Subject: Chapter Summaries Message-ID: <9rhmo9+cga7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28340 Michelle wrote: > 1. Do you think it is in this chapter that Malfoy decides Harry is > the bane of his existence and why or why not? I thought Malfoy had decided that back on the Hogwarts Express. I think he stole Neville's Remembrall as much to bug Harry as to bug Neville. > 2. Where does Wood get a bunch of golf balls? I think Wood has no idea that they ARE golf balls, only that they are what Madam Hooch uses for training Seekers. Madam Hooch may not know anything about golf either, but merely be following what generations of Quidditch coaches did before her. It may be part of her job to conjure up golf balls or transfigure something into golf balls, or it may be part of her job to order them from a supplier. The supplier might produce them by magic or might import them from the Muggle world... perhaps that is Seamus's mother's ancestral family business and the way she met Seamus's father! > 3. Why do you think Ron felt badly about what he said about > Hermione? JKR indicating that Ron has a good heart and didn't really WANT to hurt anyone's feelings when he was just venting. I don't know how realistic that is for 1) eleven year olds, 2) males, 3) eleven year old males. > 6. Hermione has endured a lot of hurtful remarks and treatment from > Ron, why does she defend he and Harry? Because they saved her life. She would feel guilty for a long time if she allowed them to be punished for saving her life. Her previous problems against them can be dealt with separately. I suppose a typical Slytherin would put vengeance ahead of life-debt (IS REVENGE a more characteristic SLYTHERIN TRAIT than AMBITION?) > 1. If you were brand new to the wizarding world and a brand new > seeker and you read that the most serious quidditch accidents > happened to people playing your position, would you reconsider > playing? I'm not a Gryffindor. Harry is. Surely you also are, Michelle, and wouldn't let that new information stop you from pleasing so many of your new associates: McGonagall, Wood, the other team members, and Ron. > 5. For most sports events you have the announcers' booth with > microphones and such, but we know they wouldn't work at Hogwarts. > What does Lee Jordan use to commentate? He uses a megaphone (I think that was stated somewhere) which I assume is enchanted to amplify his voice without the usual Muggle distortion. In GoF, I expected Bagman to also use an enchanted megaphone to commentate, but HE used the Sonorus Charm. > 4. Earlier in the chapter, they decide that having flames in a jar > wouldn't be allowed. Why do they not have a problem with Hermione > performing a charm to make paint flash? They decided that it wouldn't be allowed BY SNAPE, but it would be harder for Snape to make up rules just to deduct points from them in front of a huge crowd including teachers. In fact, even in the courtyard, the rule he made up was 'no books outdoorss' rather than 'no magical fires'. I wonder if Hermione's bluebell flames are considered a magical fire, considering the defintion in FB (Ashwinder): Any fire to which a magical substance such as Floo Powder has been added. From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 19:37:09 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:37:09 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Living With Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28341 Ooo, look, I'm chaining replies! Calypso says: >First of all, there's the Lupin factor. Ah, very good point. Harry *does* trust Lupin completely. And he doesn't have problems with the werewolf thing since Harry hasn't grown up with prejudices against werewolves. >Lastly, there's the fact that Harry *was* just a thirteen-year old boy. He >wanted to leave the Durselys and trust the man who was his father's best >friend. Another good point. Just because Harry is a symbol of Dumbledore's side doesn't mean that he's infallible. *grin* It makes sense that he behave completely like a 13 year old! I sometimes forget that... Cindy wrote: >It helps to think about these things from Harry's POV. Yes, he had a >burning hatred for Sirius after learning the details of how his parents >were betrayed. That was at a time when Sirius wasn't really personalized >to Harry. In other words, Sirius was just a picture in the paper, a >picture in a photo album. Once Harry has the chance to kill Sirius, >perhaps because by then Sirius is a person to Harry. But afterwards, is Sirius really that personalized? I have always tentatively liked Sirius but (IMO) thus far he hasn't had enough air-time in the books for me to completely like him. I feel as if, regardless of the history we learned in POA, I don't know him very much. >Not once does Sirius protest that Pettigrew should die for the wrongs he >committed against Sirius personally. It's all about Harry. There's no >better way to demonstrate one's devotion than doing the sorts of things >Sirius did for Harry and his parents. Hm, a good point, I hadn't thought about that. Of course, I've never said that I have problems with Harry believing Sirius was innocent (even if I might have had wisps of doubt). I have problems with Harry agreeing so readily to live with someone he doesn't know at all. >Harry is a fish out of water in the muggle world of Privet drive, so it >would be advisable to accept Sirius' offer quickly before he changes his >mind, am I misunderstanding? So Harry trusts Sirius enough to accept his offer but doesn't trust him enough to believe that Sirius wouldn't take back the offer? Seems a bit odd. I suppose my uneasiness is just me. Trusting someone enough to agree to live with them...well, to me that involves a great deal of trust, trust that can't be won in a few hours time. Of course, maybe if I were to live with some Dursley-ish people, I would change my mind! I do feel better about the situation, though, so thanks everyone! ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Shadow-Lover, you alone can know How I long to reach a point of peace How I fade with weariness and woe How I long for you to bring release Shadow-Lover, court me in my dreams Bring the peace that suffering redeems." - "Shadow Lover" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 19:53:13 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:53:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Ten Summary and Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28342 >From: "M. Barnett" > >If they (chp. 10 & 11 summaries) suck, I'm sorry! No they didn't, they were very good! >2. Where does Wood get a bunch of golf balls? There is no mention of >wizards playing golf anywhere and he doesn't know about basketball, >why would he know about golf. Oh, I cannot believe that I've never picked up on this before! Where *did* Wood get the golf balls? Only thing I can think of is that Hooch is MuggleBorn (do we know?), has access to golf balls, and that the captains find them useful for training even if they don't know what they're used for in the Muggle world. >4. Prof. Quirrell tells Dumbledore about the troll and then faints. >If you were in his DADA class, would you really be able to respect >him as an authority on Dark Arts/Creatures anymore? It would depend what year I was in. If I was in first year, I would still respect him. Trolls are scary creatures! If I was in seventh year, I would maybe be a bit more contemptuous. However, in "Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them", Troll is given the rating of "Dangerous/requires specialist knowledge/skilled wizard may handle". Clearly taking care of a Troll is not something to be taken lightly so maybe his fainting makes sense? Also, if I were a first year, I would've thought that Quirrell had just gotten back from trying to capture the Troll himself and had hurt himself or was terribly tired. >5. Ron is able to perform the spell in the toilets he wasn't able to >perform in class. Is this a case of `talent appears in stressful >situations' or just pure luck? Heh. I rather think it's the first reason but I'm sure others feel that it was just good luck. Maybe seeing a practical application of Wingardium Leviosa helped put everything in place for him? >6. Hermione has endured a lot of hurtful remarks and treatment from >Ron, why does she defend he and Harry? Er, they just saved her from a Troll? Should I be looking into this more? I thought of it as more of a "You just saved my neck so I'll save yours" kinda deal. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Shadow-Lover, you alone can know How I long to reach a point of peace How I fade with weariness and woe How I long for you to bring release Shadow-Lover, court me in my dreams Bring the peace that suffering redeems." - "Shadow Lover" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From SALeathem at aol.com Sun Oct 28 19:56:11 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:56:11 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) Message-ID: <29.1cda2daa.290dbcdb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28343 Cindy wrote: << "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did . . . lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight." Now that I look at Snape's statement again, it seems a little strange, doesn't it? Snape's statement that Lupin went out of sight suggests the Map doesn't display the path all the way to the Shrieking Shack. >> Harry notices this the first time he looks at the map as well. He sees that at least one of the tunnels goes off to one side of the map and he can't tell exactly where it ends up, neither could Fred & George, and they'd never used that one, because the whomping willow was planted over the entrance. But they all noted that it looked like it ended up in Hogsmeade somewhere. If F&G had seen that the path ended in the Shrieking Shack, surely being the mischievous (sp?) boys they are, they'd have been trying to find a way into it. Either by the shack or by the whomping willow. << So what is going on here, and why does Snape follow Lupin? Is Snape behaving the same way he did years ago, snooping around after Lupin, hoping to catch him doing something untrustworthy? >> At some point during PoA Snape says to Dumbledore that he expressed reservations when Dumbledore appointed Lupin as DADA proffessor, because Lupin used to be friends with Black. I would guess that Snape was in a way behaving the same way (as he did when he was younger), because he suspected Lupin of helping Black into the school, and seeing Lupin rush off to the shack, and knowing that Black knows about the shack, and how to work the whomping willow, he'll think he's been proved right. And takes his chance to catch them in the act. Snape suspected Black was in the shack, and Lupin was running to see him for some reason. << Well, Snape did take the Invisibility Cloak with him, so he certainly had the intention of "snooping" or observing Lupin while Lupin doesn't know Snape is watching. >> He must have found that at the entrance, cos I don't think we've been told that Snape has one too, which would have told him that Harry was there already. I would guess that finding the cloak made him think that Black had somehow caught Harry (at least) and Lupin was off to help him escape with Harry. But doesn't he also say at some point that he thought HRH had gone off to capture Black singlehandedly? << Does anyone have a theory about what exactly Snape is thinking here? >> That all of his christmasses (sp?) and birthdays and promotion chances have come at once. :o) I think he's rubbing his hands together with glee as he rushes off to the shack expecting to find at least Black & Lupin consipiring, but possibly also a captured terrified Harry, and therefore prove to Dumbledore that he's been right all along about Lupin, get them both put in Azkaban, have Harry forever in his debt, and the DADA job. Also, I think he was trying to prove to Dumbledore that HRH weren't to be trusted and should be watched all the time, not given any privaledges and never be made Head Boy(s)/Girl like James was. << Cindy (who is still holding a mini-grudge that Snape criticized Lupin's teaching methods in front of the students) >> I still think that's all cos Snape needs to grow up. He was reverting to the little spurned boy who wasn't picked to play on Lupins football team. From memory, Lupin doesn't turn round and retaliate, but he nicely rises above what Snape was saying to him. (at least, I think he always rises above it) Black however, as Padfoot when the Map insults Snape, I would imagine if Black had been a teacher at the school I think they'd always be picking on each other and slapping each other (not in front of the students, I would hope, but I could imagine some kind of hand bag slappage going on in the staff room every now and then... quite a comical scene...), much like Harry & Draco, and generally acting like 6 year olds. Sara From SALeathem at aol.com Sun Oct 28 20:17:03 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:17:03 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Ten Summary and Questions Message-ID: <162.3046e2e.290dc1bf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28344 In a message dated 28/10/2001 18:14:55 GMT Standard Time, fyregirl at cfl.rr.com writes: << 1. Do you think it is in this chapter that Malfoy decides Harry is the bane of his existence and why or why not? I think he decided when he couldn't get harry to shake his hand earlier in the book. Perhaps not bane of his existence so much as good person to wind up and take the mick out of for the hell of it, beacuse there's nothing better to do at break & lunch and in lessons that Gryffindor have with Slytherin, in the corridors between lessons etc... 2. Where does Wood get a bunch of golf balls? There is no mention of wizards playing golf anywhere and he doesn't know about basketball, why would he know about golf. Maybe they weren't really golf balls, but it was from Harry's pov, and he thought they were golf balls... or maybe Golf is rife in the wizarding world as a way to keep ex now overwieght and out of condition Quidditch players busy, and retired older male wizards to spend their days when their wives get sick of them shadowing them everywhere beacuse they have nothing else to do. 3. Why do you think Ron felt badly about what he said about Hermione? Is it one of those 3rd grade things ? I like you so I'll beat you up? I think it might be the older brother syndrome. He has a little sister, and I would think at least some of the time, he bosses her around. I think he's young enough to have not hung about with girls much as mates, and so only really knows how to react to them as a little sister, and that's by being mean and horrible and finding it weird to be intentionally nice. I also think it was just that boys don't really like making girls cry, and he just felt horrible, un connected to his perhaps-not-yet-fully-realised-by-himself love for her. He is a nice boy after all and not someone like Draco who seems to delight in upsetting Hermione, but gladly, he got what was coming to him when she slapped him one (nice one Hermione :o)) 4. Prof. Quirrell tells Dumbledore about the troll and then faints. If you were in his DADA class, would you really be able to respect him as an authority on Dark Arts/Creatures anymore? No. But I would have had my doubts when I smelt the garlic and heard the stuttering and noticed his pale face and generally scared demenour. 5. Ron is able to perform the spell in the toilets he wasn't able to perform in class. Is this a case of `talent appears in stressful situations' or just pure luck? I think it's a bit like Harry and his Patronus. He knew he had to do it, so he did. Is that the same as Talent appears in stressful situations? 6. Hermione has endured a lot of hurtful remarks and treatment from Ron, why does she defend he and Harry? Because they saved her life, and Hermione, unlike Snape, is grateful for such an event, and wants to be sure that should it ever happen again, by showing gratitude (by lying to the teachers) they'll bail her out again. Also, she's nice, and she likes them both really. Sara From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Sun Oct 28 20:23:41 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:23:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) In-Reply-To: <9rhe80+3l1i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rhpgd+3j7e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28345 Anne wrote: > If Snape was able to see Lupin on the map, at least up to the point > that he entered the Shrieking Shack, it would seem that he would have > noticed Harry, Ron, Black, and Peter on the map as well (as long as > he looked at the map before they all entered the shack). I'm > wondering if he only saw Lupin on the map because the others were > already in the shack, and went after him as a combination of duty (to > give Lupin the potion) and a combination of wanting to 'catch him' > and prove that Lupin is a danger to have at Hogwarts. There are a couple of good theories raised here. First, perhaps Snape's motive is to give Lupin his potion. Nope. Doesn't work because Snape doesn't bring the potion with him. Second, maybe Snape saw HRH, Black and Pettigrew on the Map before Lupin disappeared off the edge. Unlikely, because Snape specifically mentions seeing Lupin, and somehow omits a mention of seeing a dead man and a convicted murder. It seems that the key is whether Snape is going to the shrieking shack to investigate/harrass/undermine Lupin or whether he has some reasonable basis to think Harry (or anyone else) might be in danger. Anne wrote: >I could > imagine Snape arriving at the Willow and noticing Harry's > invisibility cloak. Seeing that, and not knowing that Black and > Wormtail were inside, he might think that Harry had gone in after > soon-to-be-werewolf Lupin, and was now in the same danger Snape had > experienced years ago when Sirius tricked him. So now Snape's > motivations would change. Could he have gone in with the intent of > SAVING Harry, maybe as a way to repay his debt to James? I don't think this helps Snape, either. First, I am unsure how, when Snape find the cloak next to the willow, that he knows it belongs to Harry. In "Snape's Grudge", Harry does not have the cloak in his pocket when he is taken to Snape's office. I can't think of a prior instance in the HP series in which Snape sees Harry with the cloak. But for some reason, when Snape reveals himself in the Shrieking Shack, he clearly knows the cloak is Harry's. Mini-FLINT? Anyway, when Snape finds the cloak, he doesn't necessarily know that it is Harry's cloak. Harry is not the only wizard with an invisibility cloak (Moody has one). For all Snape knows, it might be Lupin's cloak, and Lupin might have used the cloak to sneak out if he were on his way to transform. And no matter how you slice it, when Snape left his office in the first place, he had no idea Harry's cloak was on the ground by the willow. So when Snape set off after Lupin, he wasn't motivated by any desire to protect the students. I still think it was all about snooping around after Lupin, just like it was many years ago. Cindy (who is not in a particularly charitable mood with Snape today) From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 20:26:43 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:26:43 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Living With Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28346 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: "Lucy Austin" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Living With Sirius >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:12:50 -0000 > > > > > *heavy sigh* I think I am in desperate need of a new support group > > > > to advocate that Sirius is not seriously bent and a danger to > > > himself > > > > and others, but is simply misunderstood and doesn't always think > > > > things out before acting. Perhaps S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R. (Sirius Is not > > > > Nutters; Instead, Sirius Tried to do Everything Right). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Count me in on this group. > > > > Me too, please. > > >Me too, me too!! Me, as well. Book #3: Remember how Harry tried to get that permission to go to Hogsmeade? Dursleys - he tries to make a deal, he begs. Minister of Magic (Should be "father" of the Wizard Society) Head of Gryffindor (Should be "mother" of Gryffindor students) None did. So er - Fred & George give him this informal permission (Signed by Harry's Father, Godfather, a teacher and the one who had caused neither being able to sign the formal permission) and Harry went, but only to realise that he didn't really want it. What he really lacked, was not Hogsmeade, but parental care. He begged for it. No one ever gave that to Harry - that little note only made him painfully aware of his lack of parental care, Neville had his grandmother, all others their parents. Harry had no one. Sirius gave that parental care by offering home for Harry (didn't work out, but it wasn't Sirius's fault) - Harry didn't even need to ask - beg for what is the right of every child. Sirius offers it freely. Sirius signs that permission - Harry didn't even mention it to him. And Sirius in book #4 - he cares for Harry - he does, in all, act like a caring parent. Something Petunia and Vernon don't give even to Dudley. When Sirius got Harry's letter "it's not real. It doesn't hurt anymore"- kind of thing, the response is "Nice try, Harry, but won't work". Sirius notices reality much better than most of others (like reading the truth between lines from Rita Skeeter's stories). He escaped from Azcaban seeing Harry was in danger, to protect his godson. Even as Lily's true parental love for Harry managed to block a curse that was "impossible" to block, Sirius's true parental love enabled him to escape from the "unbreakable prison". So I do believe Sirius cares for Harry - just as much as Harry's late parents did. > > And I actually don't have any problem with him calling Snape a > > "slimy, oily, greasy kid". I'm sure he was. So, he's talking about > > a teacher? I don't have much respect for a teacher who takes his > > grudges out on his students and who treats Harry like scum just > > because he didn't like his father. I don't say Snape is really a bad > > guy, but I strongly dislike him. So it might be true that you can > > either be a Sirius fan or a Snape fan. > >I don't think Sirius should treat Snape with respect just because he's a >teacher - after all, it's not like Snape has authority over him. It's just >two people of the same age who dislike each other. Respect must be earned, it can't be demanded. And Snape is not someone I'd respect as a person. Sirius is. Snape is insulting Harry's late father (It's just not right to speak so to an orphan!) and being the worst fear of Neville... He helds a job and rank of teacher, but he's not a teacher, he's a potion expert. He ought to take lessons from Sprout and Lupin. They know how to teach! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From SALeathem at aol.com Sun Oct 28 20:27:33 2001 From: SALeathem at aol.com (SALeathem at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:27:33 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Eleven Summary and Questions Message-ID: <134.3b96e0e.290dc435@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28347 In a message dated 28/10/2001 18:18:18 GMT Standard Time, fyregirl at cfl.rr.com writes: << 1. If you were brand new to the wizarding world and a brand new seeker and you read that the most serious quidditch accidents happened to people playing your position, would you reconsider playing? Yes. But I think that I'd probably also go along with it anyway, because I wouldn't want to let them down and even though it's dangerous, I reckon it'd be fun. 2. Snape takes away points for having a library book "outside the school". Wouldn't all the grounds be considered "the school"? Is he just being mean? Yes again. He is. They were still in the school grounds and it wasn't like Harry was wiping the book along the muddy ground or anything. 3. If Snape took points away for a library book, why didn't he take points away for being in the staff room, especially when he saw what he did? Was Harry actually *in* the staff room, or did Snape just leave the door ajar? I think he didn't take points away, because he panicked and just wanted Harry out quickly. Much like Filch in a later book when he sees Harry has read the letter that proves that Filch was a squib. Filch just wants him out quickly as opposed to punishing him. 4. Earlier in the chapter, they decide that having flames in a jar wouldn't be allowed. Why do they not have a problem with Hermione performing a charm to make paint flash? Is it not the same kind of principle? (Wouldn't they be much more likely to be questioned in front of that many people than they would by themselves?) Paint flash? Am I missing something? 5. For most sports events you have the announcers' booth with microphones and such, but we know they wouldn't work at Hogwarts. What does Lee Jordan use to commentate? Like Bagman at the world cup? 6. Hermione gets to Snape and light her little fire. He notices it and then she scoops it back up and leaves. How does she do that? How does Snape notice he is on fire, but not notice Hermione crouching by his side? Maybe she was behind him, rather than beside him, or when he panicked, he didn't notice cos he was trying to put himself out. How come he didn't look around and see her when it mysteriously went out without him doing anything is what I'm wondering... 7. What does a Golden Snitch taste like? Metal & feathers. 8. And a random question for anyone that has ever done a summary. Do you use MS Word? And if so, did you add all those words it didn't recognize? Don't use Word, but I have done for something else Potter related, and yes I did add all the wizard words :o) Sara From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 20:55:50 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:55:50 -0000 Subject: Chapter Summaries In-Reply-To: <9rhmo9+cga7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rhrcm+ikff@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28348 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > 2. Where does Wood get a bunch of golf balls? > > I think Wood has no idea that they ARE golf balls, only that they > are what Madam Hooch uses for training Seekers. Madam Hooch may not > know anything about golf either, but merely be following what > generations of Quidditch coaches did before her. It may be part of > her job to conjure up golf balls or transfigure something into > golf balls, or it may be part of her job to order them from a > supplier. [etc.] I think there is a more rudimentary explanation. If Hogwarts is near/in Scotland, it would be little matter to obtain old golf balls from nearby golf courses, regardless of how much commerce most Wizards have with Muggles. There would be no need for a special supplier, since many courses gather dinged-up stray balls to sell.... ....Craig From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 21:03:17 2001 From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (Michelle) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:03:17 -0000 Subject: Dumb Questions ... Message-ID: <9rhrql+eu3b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28349 6. Hermione has endured a lot of hurtful remarks and treatment from Ron, why does she defend he and Harry? Upon reflection ... this was a pretty dumb quetsion. If someone who picked on me a lot had just saved my life, I'd probably try and return the favor too. You can't win 'em all :) Michelle :) From derry at lakesedge.org Sun Oct 28 20:58:08 2001 From: derry at lakesedge.org (Derry) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:58:08 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Eleven Summary and Questions References: <9rhi38+ttee@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001e01c15ff3$6e5d8980$d55987d9@noconcall> No: HPFGUIDX 28350 > From: M. Barnett > 1. If you were brand new to the wizarding world and a brand new > seeker and you read that the most serious quidditch accidents > happened to people playing your position, would you reconsider > playing? I'd probably figure that I couldn't back out without looking a total fool. Besides, Harry has had people rhapsodising over what a fantastic Seeker he is. Wouldn't it be nice to be well-known for something he's _done_ rather than something he _is_? Considering he hasn't been outstanding at lessons, it would be reassuring to have something to prove that he does belong in the wizarding world. (Then again, I used to ride cross-country, which is probably the most dangerous equine sport, simply because I was good at it. I'm probably not a sensible person to ask. ) > 2. Snape takes away points for having a library book "outside the > school". Wouldn't all the grounds be considered "the school"? Is > he just being mean? Well, it's a rule that was rigorously enforced at my school, with regard to taking library books out of the school buildings and I think it's fairly clear that that's what Snape means. But yes, he probably was just being mean. Bless. > 4. Earlier in the chapter, they decide that having flames in a jar > wouldn't be allowed. Why do they not have a problem with Hermione > performing a charm to make paint flash? Is it not the same kind of > principle? (Wouldn't they be much more likely to be questioned in > front of that many people than they would by themselves?) Different charms, different reactions. Flames are dangerous - we see that Hermione can set Snape alight. Flashing paint is a different kettle of fish. Derry - delurking -- http://lena.lakesedge.org \\ http://lena.lakesedge.org/pros "A lot of things are better telnet clients than the default win95 telnet program...winmine.exe, the cd program, or a ford pinto, for example." - Aaron Goldstein From derry at lakesedge.org Sun Oct 28 20:58:10 2001 From: derry at lakesedge.org (Derry) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:58:10 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Ten Summary and Questions References: <9rhhsv+5df1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001f01c15ff3$6ff7ffa0$d55987d9@noconcall> No: HPFGUIDX 28351 > From: M. Barnett > 1. Do you think it is in this chapter that Malfoy decides > Harry is the bane of his existence and why or why not? I think the whole thing started on the train. Malfoy was seeing himself as easily sliding into position as the 'leader' of the first years - at which point Harry turns up. So, in Draco's mind, Harry now has a choice - he can be Draco's friend or his enemy. In this chapter, Harry confirms that he's going to be an enemy. > 3. Why do you think Ron felt badly about what he said about > Hermione? Is it one of those 3rd grade things . I like you > so I'll beat you up? I think most people, even eleven-year-old males, would feel bad about making somebody cry. I don't get the impression that Ron dislikes Hermione at this point - he's just irritated that, to misquote Terry Pratchett, she's learned that she's more intelligent than everybody else but hasn't learned that the most intelligent thing she can do is stop people finding that out. > 4. Prof. Quirrell tells Dumbledore about the troll and then > faints. If you were in his DADA class, would you really be > able to respect him as an authority on Dark Arts/Creatures > anymore? I don't think I could have respected him beforehand... Though I think I would have assumed that he'd been off trying to tackle the troll and had failed, which might have actually given me a smidgen of respect for him. > 5. Ron is able to perform the spell in the toilets he wasn't > able to perform in class. Is this a case of `talent appears > in stressful situations' or just pure luck? Not so much talent appearing as stress being wonderful for concentrating the mind! > 6. Hermione has endured a lot of hurtful remarks and treatment > from Ron, why does she defend he and Harry? Having somebody risk their own life to save youe would probably do that to you... (Especially when they haven't deliberately put you in danger in the first place.) Derry -- http://lena.lakesedge.org \\ http://lena.lakesedge.org/pros "A lot of things are better telnet clients than the default win95 telnet program...winmine.exe, the cd program, or a ford pinto, for example." - Aaron Goldstein From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 21:05:39 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:05:39 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Eleven Summary and Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28352 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com > >1. If you were brand new to the wizarding world and a brand new >seeker and you read that the most serious quidditch accidents >happened to people playing your position, would you reconsider >playing? If I were a Seeker, I'd love flying too much to reconsider (not to mention that in school-team the danger would be lesser one) >2. Snape takes away points for having a library book "outside the >school". Wouldn't all the grounds be considered "the school"? Is he >just being mean? They were within campus area, yes. Maybe there was a rule against reading/having books outside(not inside under roof). Never know when rain/sunlight may spoil the books U know... So em. it might be against a rule of "take good care of library books" - being very strict about it. >3. If Snape took points away for a library book, why didn't he take >points away for being in the staff room, especially when he saw what >he did? Because being in the staff room is not against the rules. If a student needs to contact a teacher, they'd have need to go into staff room. And since the only adults in the area just happen to be staff-members... Gosh, it's a boarding school. Students need adult guidance etc. and they're away from their parents so much... And reason for taking points off must be reported to head-master I guess. Snape knows full well that Dumbledore would strongly disapprove. (And I think that Dumbledore wouldn't be patient with teachers punishing students for no good reason). In short, it'd be against student security to ban their entrance (and being) in the staff room. >4. Earlier in the chapter, they decide that having flames in a jar >wouldn't be allowed. Why do they not have a problem with Hermione >performing a charm to make paint flash? Is it not the same kind of >principle? (Wouldn't they be much more likely to be questioned in >front of that many people than they would by themselves?) Jar would make it seem all too planned. Jar's were probably forbidden - wands and charms were not. Performing a charm might even be considered practice that failed to hit a non-risky target or something. >5. For most sports events you have the announcers' booth with >microphones and such, but we know they wouldn't work at Hogwarts. >What does Lee Jordan use to commentate? A spell - what else? This is a magical thing, after all. >6. Hermione gets to Snape and light her little fire. He notices it >and then she scoops it back up and leaves. How does she do that? >How does Snape notice he is on fire, but not notice Hermione >crouching by his side? Good heavens... If I'd be on fire, I'd hardly notice anything ELSE! >7. What does a Golden Snitch taste like? Orange (Got the right color - pluse orange juice speeds me up in the morning) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sun Oct 28 21:09:20 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:09:20 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Ten Summary and Questions Message-ID: <148.3b9303d.290dce00@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28353 In a message dated 10/28/01 1:15:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, fyregirl at cfl.rr.com writes: > 1. Do you think it is in this chapter that Malfoy decides Harry is > the bane of his existence and why or why not? I believe Draco decided Harry was an 'enemy' ever since The Hogwarts Express incident. Harry told him that he could decide who were the right friends for himself, implying Ron is a good friend, his friend and Malfoy isn't. Malfoy then realizes Harry isn't up to *his* standards and is embarrassed. I think the broomstick just furthered his dislike. > > 2. Where does Wood get a bunch of golf balls? There is no mention of > wizards playing golf anywhere and he doesn't know about basketball, > why would he know about golf. Perhaps the Muggle studies teacher gave them to him. Or there might have been a stash of them in the shed where Quidditch equipment is kept as an alternative for the snitch. > > 3. Why do you think Ron felt badly about what he said about > Hermione? Is it one of those 3rd grade things ? I like you so I'll > beat you up? Ah, 'tis one of the few things that causes a young male to feel remorse...Making a girl cry. From past experiences and what I know, a guy will *always* feel bad for making a girl cry, no matter how much they like or dislike her. > > 4. Prof. Quirrell tells Dumbledore about the troll and then faints. > If you were in his DADA class, would you really be able to respect > him as an authority on Dark Arts/Creatures anymore? I don't think anyone respected him much in the first place. After all, there were all the rumors about him stuffing garlic in his turban. I wouldn't have much respect for such a coward as a DADA teacher > 5. Ron is able to perform the spell in the toilets he wasn't able to > perform in class. Is this a case of `talent appears in stressful > situations' or just pure luck? Talent appears in stressful situations. A lot of times one can't manage something simply because they are thinking/concentrating too much. Ron wasn't thinking about he was simply trying to stop a huge Troll. > > 6. Hermione has endured a lot of hurtful remarks and treatment from > Ron, why does she defend he and Harry? They just saved her from a huge Troll! I'd be damn grateful too! And if Ron came to save her, then he can't be that bad from her perspective. ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calypso8604 at aol.com Sun Oct 28 21:22:26 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 16:22:26 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Eleven Summary and Questions Message-ID: <54.1d0b3561.290dd112@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28354 In a message dated 10/28/01 1:18:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, fyregirl at cfl.rr.com writes: > 1. If you were brand new to the wizarding world and a brand new > seeker and you read that the most serious Quidditch accidents > happened to people playing your position, would you reconsider > playing? *I* certainly would! I would prefer to start of my first year at a new school, in a new world with a lack of major injury. > > 2. Snape takes away points for having a library book "outside the > school". Wouldn't all the grounds be considered "the school"? Is he > just being mean? I think he was in a bad mood because of his leg and saw an opportunity to take it on his "favorite" students. So he was just being bitter. > > 3. If Snape took points away for a library book, why didn't he take > points away for being in the staff room, especially when he saw what > he did? I believe he panicked and just sent Harry away as quickly as possible. Had his head been clearer he most definitely would have taken off points. > > 4. Earlier in the chapter, they decide that having flames in a jar > wouldn't be allowed. Why do they not have a problem with Hermione > performing a charm to make paint flash? Is it not the same kind of > principle? (Wouldn't they be much more likely to be questioned in > front of that many people than they would by themselves?) > Well, there's a slight difference between fire and paint! I'll just leave it at that, as that nice, one sentence answer contains my entire point ^_^ > microphones > and such, but we know they wouldn't work at Hogwarts. > What does Lee Jordan use to commentate? Oh, what was that spell Bagman used for the Quidditch World Cup? Anyway, Lee probably uses that spell that amplifies his voice.....Although, then we wouldn't be able to hear McGonagall...Hmm, maybe an enchanted microphone? > > 6. Hermione gets to Snape and light her little fire. He notices it > and then she scoops it back up and leaves. How does she do that? > How does Snape notice he is on fire, but not notice Hermione > crouching by his side? He was more worried about burning than paying attention to anyone around him! As soon as Snape began to panic, I have an image of Hermione sweeping the flames off the edge of his robe into the jar and booking it. > > 7. What does a Golden Snitch taste like? > Probably like painted metal ^_^. > 8. And a random question for anyone that has ever done a summary. Do > you use MS Word? And if so, did you add all those words it didn't > recognize? I don't have that program but my email does spell check. I have to keep adding words like Quidditch and Malfoy and Hermione and so forth ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 21:26:14 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:26:14 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Ten Summary and Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28355 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >Questions > >1. Do you think it is in this chapter that Malfoy decides Harry is >the bane of his existence and why or why not? No - Malfoy made that decision in the train I think, for Harry choosing Ron Weasley over him. >2. Where does Wood get a bunch of golf balls? There is no mention of >wizards playing golf anywhere and he doesn't know about basketball, >why would he know about golf. a) They weren't real golf-balls, but looked like them. b) Wood does play golf when at home. (Maybe he was Muggle-born and his parent played or someone next door did or...) >3. Why do you think Ron felt badly about what he said about >Hermione? Is it one of those 3rd grade things I like you so I'll >beat you up? He was angry at her - and regretted later. You ever had a fight? >4. Prof. Quirrell tells Dumbledore about the troll and then faints. >If you were in his DADA class, would you really be able to respect >him as an authority on Dark Arts/Creatures anymore? No. Particularly not after two students beat the troll up! >5. Ron is able to perform the spell in the toilets he wasn't able to >perform in class. Is this a case of `talent appears in stressful >situations' or just pure luck? It's a thing of learning, aside from a big part of magic being the belief in one's own ability. Unlike class, Ron wasn't thinking about doing it - he just did it. (A failure usually makes it worse, but in class it's just: You didn't learn it yet, that's all...) >6. Hermione has endured a lot of hurtful remarks and treatment from >Ron, why does she defend he and Harry? They saved her life, that's why. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 21:29:05 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:29:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potion Brewing? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28356 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >Could a muggle brew potions given the right equipment. I know snape >said in ps/ss that 'you wouldn't think this magic... there is no >silly want waving...'. So could any old fool when given a couldren >and different ingredients make magical potions? > >~Laurence > I think so - and one that would be needed in Muggle World, would be Veritaserum for trials. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 21:54:19 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:54:19 +0200 Subject: Invisibility Cloak/invisible books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28357 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com > >As an aside, I have to ask how we are able to see the invisibility >cloak? Does it only become invisibile when it is put on? I recall >that the owner of Flourish and Blotts complained about losing copies >of the Invisible book of Invisibility. Curious. Different spell. Invisibility Cloak is made to hide the wizars/witches wearing it. I don't think that Invisibility Cloak would hide things. (Why doesn't Harry hide his things under it? Use it to hide from Dursleys and study at desk instead of bed?) Invisibility Books, OTOH are invisible things. (Must be some trick to make them readable, like with the Monsterbook of Monsters) - I've been playing with the idea of Hermione's parents saying "Aside from your school-books, Hermione, we don't want to see any more of them" thinking that she reads far too much, and telling her friends so. Harry knows Hermione loves books - (but can't go against her parents wishes) - so he'd actually buy the invisible book - so Hermione's folks would NOT see it, but it'd still be a book for Hermione... Really, I think their house must be filling with books! And after that monster-book for school... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 22:36:27 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:36:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28358 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com > >And Parker said something similar. > >First, I completely agree with this assessment of Sirius's disorder. He >absolutely shows signs of PTSS, especially in terms of his violent >outbursts. Every time he exhibits signs of murderous rage--slashing the Fat >Lady's portrait, choking Harry--it is when he is denied his goal or when he >encounters them as obstacles. As far as slashing Ron's curtains, I believe >he was so close to success, he simply snapped for a moment. (Ron's scream >not only shook him out of his rage, but made him realise Scabbers wasn't >there. Could also have been a reality check: "Oh [expletive deleted!] I >almost hurt someone who wasn't Peter!") > >As far as the "greasy-haired kid" remark, come on. It's a perennial >problem, >on many levels. As someone else has pointed out, Sirius is frozen 12 years >in the past, due to his imprisonment. Though he did have access to the Daily Prophet to see Pettigrew as Ron's rat. (My guess is, that a wizard guard - only one, - was reading it with his back turned, and while Sirus' cell was a bit off - he took his eye into his hand and looked - which he could do due to being animagus. Dropping a finger I figure also an animagus trick...) >So he has no new impression of Snape >to balance the old (and let's face it, has Snape really changed that much? >He would hardly be voted the "most changed" at the Hogwarts class of '76 >reunion). That's one. Not much - Sirius did, though. Can't spend 12 years with dementors without changing - to be more responsible, I guess, from prankster to the caring godfather. >Second, isn't it true for many people that the image of the child never >quite gets replaced by the adult? What I mean is, people who've known one >since childhood sometimes have trouble allowing that person to age and grow >in their estimation--regardless of the evidence that they have done so. >True, this is usually the case when those judging are older than the person >judged, but again, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Yes - I have that problem with some - like my little sister whose five years younger, some younger children from next door I've not seen... >First off, we can conclude that he was 16 or thereabouts, if Snape's >statement is accurate: "Sirius Black proved he was capable of murder at >16." He was 16 when Sirius told Snape about Whomping Willow - as was Snape. Hmm... I think that back then, (and after) - Sirius was unable to lie - or break his word. He was unable to keep the thing about Whomping Willow a secret when pressed by Snape (having never actually promised to keep THAT a secret) - but, he'd promised not to tell about Lupin... so that's, I think, what happened... I think he, noting that giving away one secret nearly leading to someone discovering another secret, nearly causing death etc. and regretted it. He figured that he was unable to keep secrets when confronted about them. So, when it came to choose Secret-Keeper, James would choose Sirius he knew as a loyal friend and one who kept his word. Sirius refused. saying something like "I can't keep secrets, Prongs. I told Snape about Whomping Willow, remember. Besides, everyone would think I was your choice. Take Wormtail instead. Then they come after me and he won't even be questioned" or some such. Then, when it turned out that Pettigrew was the traitor... He blames Snape for making him feel so unable about keeping secrets - and thus, responsible of James' and Lily's death - though hating Peter even more for his betrayal, and, um... maybe Harry told Sirius how Snape was treating him, so it'd not be only past actions. Weight of the past and the godparent's reaction on the teacher abusing the godson. If you heard a teacher was treating your child - or godchild - like Snape treats Harry - wouldn't you be angry? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 22:48:55 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:48:55 +0200 Subject: Apparating in Hogwarts... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28359 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com I think that what house-elves do, is not apparating. It's just something else. Like Port-key isn't apparating - nor using floo-powder. Also, I think there's a special room where apparating is possible (The tower usually forbidden from students), but only within the area, so that they can teach apparating. Like: Apparate to the spot right next to you or downstairs. (Limited, so it's safer and they don't have to go looking for apparatus-students trying to get their licence). Then, they might go to Hogsmeade for further training - this time apparating farther off. (Could get lost into er.. Godric Hollow. Harry might meet his parents ghosts there or something after making some apparating mistake...) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 23:05:02 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 01:05:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Minerva Not In On Black's Secret Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28360 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: doseylel at aol.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Minerva Not In On Black's Secret >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:10:20 -0000 > >It has always bothered me at the end of GoF, that Dumbledore sends >Minerva off before having Sirius transform. She is the Deputy >Headmistress, and should something happen to Dumbledore, she would be >in charge. Isn't this an important bit of information in the fight >against Voldemort? Shouldn't she also know about the Old Crowd? Has >anyone else thought that was strange? Emm.. Minerva is a registered animagus. She's also pretty strict about rules and would definately report Sirius and Dumbledore knows that. She'd send Owl to Ministry immediately and wouldn't listen Dumbledore - far less Harry telling her Sirius is innocent, Harry's Godfather... so she mustn't know. Not until is sure Sirius to get a fair trial instead of Fudges immediate decision of Dementor's Kiss. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 23:11:41 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:11:41 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05576@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9ri3bd+35ie@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28361 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" wrote: > > As far as the "greasy-haired kid" remark, come on. It's a perennial problem, > on many levels. As someone else has pointed out, Sirius is frozen 12 years > in the past, due to his imprisonment. So he has no new impression of Snape > to balance the old (and let's face it, has Snape really changed that much? > He would hardly be voted the "most changed" at the Hogwarts class of '76 > reunion). That's one. The problem I have with that statement is that he sounded exactly like he is still an adolescent, insulting another person for their physical appearance, making himself sound cool in the process. If he said something about Snape being cruel or mean or sarcastic, I would have no problem with it because that's who he is outwardly. Remember he was trying settle the question of whether Snape should be trusted, not how frequently he wash his hair. The frozen in the past argument doesn't quite work for me, becasue I don't think a man in his early twenties should make this kind of statements. (That's how old Sirius was when he was sent to Azkaban.) But then the same thing goes for Snape's numerous remarks, especially that awful 'I see no difference.' I would vote for him in the 'most changed' poll and I know Dumbledore would, too. True, he didn't change much outwardly but I don't think someone could go from being a DE to Dumbledore's spy without some drastic inward change. > Second, I have also said this before, but I believe that is almost exactly > what happened, and that Sirius has had the rest of his life to regret that > moment. I believe his strong reaction to any defense of Snape is hot and > defensive because in his heart, he knows he screwed up bigtime. He has to > live with the fact--the realization--that he's a person who can do something > like that, even to someone he loathes as much as Snape. If Sirius had shown the slightest hint of doubt about whether his action was justifiable (I don't even require remorse or an apology), I would be the first to leap to his defence and become an instant fan ... but I don't see any evidence in canon. Also, several people has said something about the supposed immaturity of 16-year old boys. I think at 16, you can reasonably control your action and be responsible for it (in New Zealand, you are allowed to drive at 16, which is a very lethal activity around here). And even if you don't forsee the consequence of your action at the time, you should be capable of recognise it afterwards. What bothers me about Sirius is his total failure to recognise he put three people in danger: Snape, Remus and James. He still acts as though Snape deserved it. I think Snape just snapped the moment he heard how Sirius dismissed his close brush with death. I guess most of us would too. One thing about Snape in PoA was that he did have the intention to do the right thing. Okay, so it may have mingled with a bit of personal pride, anger etc ... (It's really hard try to defend an all-round nasty person.) > I am one of those folks on this list who truly likes both Sirius and > Severus. I see where both are coming from--they're really not all that > different, folks They are very similar -- no offence Sirius fans. Both of them had the tendency to think that they are absolutely right; both of them are loyal and principled; both had done regrettable things in their past; both tried to make amend. Sometimes I think that Snape may be Sirius's dark twin. (Come on, Sirius lovers, just admit your guy is not as nice as you think he is, the dark side would just make him more complex and lovely. Us Snape fans do it all the time!) I also have a question stemming from a discussion over at sugarquill. Is that possible for a rabid Sirius fans to like Snape? I know many Lupin fans who also likes Snape, many rabid Snape fans who like Sirius (Earthwalk of the I Was Right fame being one.) but I don't know any Sirius fan who has any remote affection for the Potion Master ... Put your hands up guys, I just want to know. From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 23:34:54 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:34:54 -0000 Subject: Potion Brewing? In-Reply-To: <9rhgj9+7ipa@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ri4mu+c3c6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28362 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., laurence59 at y... wrote: > Could a muggle brew potions given the right equipment. I know snape > said in ps/ss that 'you wouldn't think this magic... there is no > silly want waving...'. So could any old fool when given a couldren > and different ingredients make magical potions? > > ~Laurence 'No, dunderhead. My point was that potion is magic and requires magical ability to do it. Just as you Muggles can't pick up a wand and cast a spell, the potions you brewed would be useless. And fifty points from Gryffindor for calling potion brewers 'old fools'!' said Severus Snape, black eyes flashing and looking more dangerous than ever, outraged that someone dare to insult his beloved subject, the subtle science and precise art of Potion brewing. (For more details, check the last week messages.) From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 23:41:59 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 01:41:59 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lawbreaking Among HP Adult Characters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28363 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com > >Actually, now that I look at it again, Snape's mentioning of the >ministry guidelines seems a little forced here, doesn't it? I >wonder if JKR is foreshadowing something? Hmmm. Ah - Now, if they capture Pettigrew, all would be clear if he'd be testifying under Truthpotion, right? But, these "Ministry guidelines" - Law, requires that he must Agree to take it. And, that it's illegal to give Veritaserum to a minor.. (So that Harry can't testify about the Death-eaters under Veritaserum. They ought to get Pettigrew to agree. And that's where his life-debt to Harry comes to play, I think. (Got to use it somewhere!) Harry will be able to guilt-talk him. "You caused my parents to die. You sent my godfather to Azcaban. My life was total Misery at Dursleys because of you. Yet I saved your life. Just do at least ONE honorable thing in your life. Then... Just confess everything under Veritaserum and I forgive you. Give me my godfather back. I need him to live. I need a parent. Just give me my godfather and I forgive you". > > << Snape: ...Failed to blow the whistle on Black... >> > > > > But he did, didn't he? He got the Ministry and was looking forward >to Black > > getting the Dementors kiss when Harry & Hermione helped Black >escape. > >Sorry, I meant in GoF, once he learns Black is an animagus, he >doesn't blow the whistle then. But, Dumbledore was there, ordering them to make up, and then sent Snape off to do something else - at the risk of his life. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From bobbins29 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 02:27:49 2001 From: bobbins29 at hotmail.com (fran white) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 02:27:49 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK News of the World References: <9re3qu+avhq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28364 For Brits on this group the UK edition of News of the World is supposed to have a HP 22 page special this weekend (usually Sunday publication 28th October). There was an advert on SM:Tv about it. Also on SM:Tv they showed the short American tv trailer. Interesting to see the Quiddich scene was Gryffindor v Slytherin. Wonder if this will be the only match shown. Frances i bought the news of the world. is it worse to say i bought it for the harry potter mag than to say i usually buy it? either way, the truth is, i HATE that paper, and did only buy it for HP. it was a little disappointing: all of the pictures i'd seen before on the net, and the text wasn't anything unusual. i've still only seen the trailer for coca-sodding-teethrot-cola on telly, and i've not seen the proper trailer at the cinema either. god bless the net. - fran (short for frances, incidentally) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ ***Special Announcement from Hexquarters*** After Hallowe'en, please post ALL shapes and forms of discussion of the Harry Potter movie to our new list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie. Join up! Join up! - the projector's rolling... Before posting to any of our lists, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 03:40:20 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:40:20 -0000 Subject: Are Harry's Powers Increasing in Tandem With You-Know-Who's? Message-ID: <9rij34+ek6a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28365 I'm only an occassional browswer here, so forgive me if this has been discussed ad naseum already... I was reading GofF to my son the other day when I was struck by the following line... "...and his cushion, to his very great surprise, flew straight across the room, and landed neatly on top of Hermione's" (p.418, Canadian Raincoast ed.) I was wondering whether JKR is hinting at something about Harry's powers here. Harry seems surprised by his success at something he was putting little effort into. WHY? Is Harry getting more powerful? Is this related to puberty, or perhaps to his strange tie to Voldie? If Harry is getting stronger as Voldie is, then what does that imply about the eventual sacrifices he may have to make? (Oh, I don't want to think about that!!!!) If this has already been discussed, can someone perhaps point me in the right direction, reference-wise? Cheers, -Cornflower O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* From catlady at wicca.net Mon Oct 29 04:02:24 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 04:02:24 -0000 Subject: Chapter Summaries - Sirius + Snape - Message-ID: <9rikcg+n6kr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28366 Derry wrote: > Harry has had people rhapsodising over what a fantastic Seeker he > is. Wouldn't it be nice to be well-known for something he's > _done_ rather than something he _is_? Considering he hasn't been > outstanding at lessons, it would be reassuring to have something to > prove that he does belong in the wizarding world. Yes, that is how Harry feels about playing Quidditch. (Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to make him any more sympathetic with Ron's similar desire to prove himself.) Therefore, another Quidditch plot line that I haven't written about is how distraught Harry would feel if he found out that the reason he is a "natural" Seeker is because he acquired Tom Riddle's Seeker ability as well as his Parselmouth. Susanna Luhtenan wrote: > Though he did have access to the Daily Prophet to see Pettigrew as > Ron's rat. (My guess is, that a wizard guard - only one, - was > reading it with his back turned, and while Sirus' cell was a bit > off - he took his eye into his hand and looked - which he could do > due to being animagus. It was Fudge's copy of the Daily Prophet. "Yet I met Black on my last inspection of Azkaban. You know, most of the prisoners in there sit muttering to themselves in the dark; there's no sense in them... but I was shocked at how normal Black seemed. He spoke quite rationally to me. It was unnerving. You'd have thought he was merely bored -- asked if I'd finished with my newspaper, cool as you please, said he missed doing the crossword." > Dropping a finger I figure also an animagus trick...) Maybe, but whether it was Animagery or biting it off, the finger was permanently gone, even in rat form. > If you heard a teacher was treating your child - or godchild - like > Snape treats Harry - wouldn't you be angry? I think this may be a generational difference. I am the same age as Snape and Sirius (as they are now, not a few years ago in PoA), and apparently people around my age (some are younger) are always interceding for their children -- not having children myself, I don't know for sure. When I was a schoolchild myself, my parents (now dead, if alive they would be 80-something) reacted to my tales of woe by telling me that I was oversensitive and should just get over it. My friend's parents were worse, and told her that if anyone was mean to her, it was because she had done something to deserve it and she should behave better to those people in future. One other friend's parents would phone the school principal and threaten him with their friendship with members of the School Board and other important politicians and rich people so that they would take penalties off his record, occasionally improve his grades. This seemed so abnormal to the rest of us that we were in total awe of it, even more awe than envy. From lucy at luphen.co.uk Mon Oct 29 07:45:59 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:45:59 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) References: <9ri3bd+35ie@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <005a01c1604d$ca8d7120$52ae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28367 >>I also have a question stemming from a discussion over at sugarquill. Is that possible for a rabid Sirius fans to like Snape? >>I know many Lupin fans who also likes Snape, many rabid Snape fans who like Sirius (Earthwalk of the I Was Right fame being one.) but I don't know any Sirius fan who has any remote affection for the Potion Master ... Put your hands up guys, I just want to know. I'm a Sirius fan, I would say, and although I don't really like Snape (as you said, that comment 'I see no difference' is SO cruel!), I can admire his courage. Dumbledore tells us he was spying on Voldemort, and now he's planning to go off and try to convince Voldemort he is still on his side, so he can spy again. So though I'm not a Snape fan, I don't hate him as much as I did before the revelations in GoF. Lucy, only 43% obsessed, but with tickets for the 10th L.O.O.N S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucy at luphen.co.uk Mon Oct 29 07:50:54 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:50:54 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK News of the World References: <9re3qu+avhq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <006b01c1604e$73ce4ca0$52ae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28368 > i bought the news of the world. is it worse to say i bought it for the harry potter mag than to say i usually buy it? either way, the truth is, i HATE that paper, and did only buy it for HP. it was a little disappointing: all of the pictures i'd seen before on the net, and the text wasn't anything unusual. > i've still only seen the trailer for coca-sodding-teethrot-cola on telly, and i've not seen the proper trailer at the cinema either. god bless the net. - fran (short for frances, incidentally) I bought it for the supplement too, and I rather liked it! I'd seen most of the people in the pictures before, I know, but it's still wonderful to see them in new poses! I particularly liked the 2 quizzes - I made my partner take one and he came out quite well. He then Sorted me, and I came out a Ravenclaw rather to my surprise - I've always felt more of a Hufflepuff. Anyway, back to lurking - just wanted to give a different POV Lucy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jirrar at icqmail.com Mon Oct 29 07:54:19 2001 From: jirrar at icqmail.com (Liz) Date: 28 Oct 2001 23:54:19 -0800 Subject: Snape knowing it was Harry's cloak Message-ID: <20011029075419.2325.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28369 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From trs80 at tartarus.uwa.edu.au Mon Oct 29 08:11:58 2001 From: trs80 at tartarus.uwa.edu.au (James Andrewartha) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:11:58 +0800 (WST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) In-Reply-To: <29.1cda2daa.290dbcdb@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28370 On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 SALeathem at aol.com wrote: > Cindy wrote: > << > Does anyone have a theory about what exactly Snape is thinking here? >> > > That all of his christmasses (sp?) and birthdays and promotion chances > have come at once. :o) I think he's rubbing his hands together with glee > as he rushes off to the shack expecting to find at least Black & Lupin > consipiring, but possibly also a captured terrified Harry, and therefore > prove to Dumbledore that he's been right all along about Lupin, get them > both put in Azkaban, have Harry forever in his debt, and the DADA job. I have to say, I don't think Snape ever wanted to be DADA teacher. If he did, wouldn't Dumbledore have chosen him over Lockhart (who was the only candidate for the position in CoS)? Also, the first time we (Harry and the reader) hear that Snape is evil is at the start of year feast in PS, when Percy says "That's Professor Snape. Knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts, does Snape." (or words to that effect), and possibly also says that Snape wants to be DADA teacher (I'm not sure since I don't have the book in front of me). IMHO, Snape is perfectly happy where he is as Potions Master (which is supported by the discussion about how Snape's personality goes along well with the discipline of Potions). Which leads to the question: Why does Percy think Snape wants to be DADA teacher? James Andrewartha From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Oct 29 08:28:54 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:28:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape knowing it was Harry's cloak In-Reply-To: <20011029075419.2325.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <20011029082854.16910.qmail@web14704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28371 You forgot that Draco told him he had seen Harry's head near the Shrieking Shack! It wasn't difficult to put two and two together after that! Susanna/pigwidgeon37 Liz wrote: > From: "Cindy C." > Subject: Re: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) > I don't think this helps Snape, either. First, I am unsure how, when > Snape find the cloak next to the willow, that he knows it belongs to > Harry. In "Snape's Grudge", Harry does not have the cloak in his > pocket when he is taken to Snape's office. I can't think of a prior > instance in the HP series in which Snape sees Harry with the cloak. > But for some reason, when Snape reveals himself in the Shrieking > Shack, he clearly knows the cloak is Harry's. Mini-FLINT? > > Anyway, when Snape finds the cloak, he doesn't necessarily know that > it is Harry's cloak. Harry is not the only wizard with an > invisibility cloak (Moody has one). For all Snape knows, it might be > Lupin's cloak, and Lupin might have used the cloak to sneak out if he > were on his way to transform. One theory jumps to mind: It was, I think, originally James' cloak? I wouldn't be surprised if Snape recognised it immediately from his own runins with WMPP, put two and two together like lightning and jumped up and down with glee. In his mind. Any chance to expell that dispicable Potter boy would have him in fits... --- Liz, laughing though unfortunately having to agree with MMMfanfic's take on driving in NZ... ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ____________________________________________________________ ***Special Announcement from Hexquarters*** After Hallowe'en, please post ALL shapes and forms of discussion of the Harry Potter movie to our new list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie. Join up! Join up! - the projector's rolling... Before posting to any of our lists, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Nokia Game is on again. Click here to join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 29 09:35:21 2001 From: jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk (Janie) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:35:21 -0000 Subject: Apparating in Hogwarts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rj7sp+u5mr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28372 If you think about it, there must be somewhere that apparating is possible in hogwarts, cos otherwise they wouldn't be able to teach it. (unless they take them out to hogsmeade or something for the lessons) Maybe we'll find out when harry learns to apparate?! Janie x --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susanna Luhtanen" wrote: > > > Susanna Luhtanen > s_luhtanen at h... > > I think that what house-elves do, is not apparating. It's just something > else. Like Port-key isn't apparating - nor using floo-powder. Also, I think > there's a special room where apparating is possible (The tower usually > forbidden from students), but only within the area, so that they can teach > apparating. Like: Apparate to the spot right next to you or downstairs. > (Limited, so it's safer and they don't have to go looking for > apparatus-students trying to get their licence). Then, they might go to > Hogsmeade for further training - this time apparating farther off. (Could > get lost into er.. Godric Hollow. Harry might meet his parents ghosts there > or something after making some apparating mistake...) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 09:39:59 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:39:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rj85f+uj3a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28373 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., James Andrewartha wrote: Also, the first time we (Harry and the > reader) hear that Snape is evil is at the start of year feast in PS, when > Percy says "That's Professor Snape. Knows an awful lot about the Dark > Arts, does Snape." (or words to that effect), and possibly also says that > Snape wants to be DADA teacher (I'm not sure since I don't have the book > in front of me). The quote you are looking for is when Snape gave Harry a sharp look, then Harry asked Percy who he was. Percy answered, 'So you already know Quirrel. No wonder the poor guy is so nervous. That's Snape. He teaches Potion but he doesn't want to -- everyone knows he's after Quirrel's job. Know an awful lot about the Dark Arts, Snape does.' Then it became common knowledge the narrator mentioned in every single book and the narrator never ask Snape whether he wants the DADA job. If Professor Luke is lurking around (gosh I like how that sound!), I have a question: Can a narrator supply misinformation like that? Is it Authorial Misinformation if it turns out that Snape doesn't want the job? Who's point of view is it when the Narrator said something like that? It doesn't sound like Harry's PoV. I guess it could be Harry's PoV of everybody's opinion. >Which leads to the question: Why does > Percy think Snape wants to be DADA teacher? That's been bothering me as well. May be it's one of those old school rumours being turned into an article of faith and nothing can be done to dispel them. Every school has them, they are passed on from one generation to the next. My old school has many but the best one is that our uniform used to be bright yellow from top to bottom. No one can verify it but we all know it to be true. So may be it's the same in Hogwarts. From Calypso8604 at aol.com Mon Oct 29 10:46:30 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 05:46:30 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) Message-ID: <11d.66b4f8d.290e8d86@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28374 In a message dated 10/29/01 2:46:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, lucy at luphen.co.uk writes: > I know many Lupin fans who also likes Snape, many rabid Snape fans > who like Sirius (Earthwalk of the I Was Right fame being one.) but I > don't know any Sirius fan who has any remote affection for the Potion > Master ... Put your hands up guys, I just want to know. I love Lupin! I love Sirius! I love Snape! I'm strange in that way..^_^. I can't decide which is my favorite, I like them all. Lupin, the intelligent, misunderstood werewolf that helped Harry out, Sirius, the wrongly accused, fun-loving father figure, Snape the bitter, brave guy who has his heart in the right place. I love them all ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bricken at tenbit.pl Mon Oct 29 12:21:29 2001 From: bricken at tenbit.pl (Ev vy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:21:29 +0100 Subject: Snape's and Black's grudges;Snape vs. Black References: <9rj85f+uj3a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <003d01c16074$3ddab220$8c08f1d5@OSLII> No: HPFGUIDX 28375 From: > Then it became common knowledge the narrator mentioned in every > single book and the narrator never ask Snape whether he wants the > DADA job. > > If Professor Luke is lurking around (gosh I like how that sound!), I > have a question: > > Can a narrator supply misinformation like that? Is it Authorial > Misinformation if it turns out that Snape doesn't want the job? Who's > point of view is it when the Narrator said something like that? It > doesn't sound like Harry's PoV. I guess it could be Harry's PoV of > everybody's opinion. *delurking* I'm no Professor Luke, but I suppose I can supply you with the answer. Of course, that a narrator can do such a thing. First, because the narrator in the HP books is not omniscient, books are written from Harry's PoV and the narrator can relate only what Harry hears or sees (I'm not sure if there's another PoV, surfacing from time to time, I suppose I should re-read HP again). Percy's revelation is a kind of open secret at Hogwarts. Everybody knows that Snape wants DADA job, so this is one of the most relevant information about this teacher (for the students and that's why Percy gives the information to Harry). Second, the times of omniscient narrator have ended with the arrival of modernism. And now the authors play with PoVs, and so does JKR. GoF begins with a scene which Harry is not able to witness personally, so to be consequent, JKR uses the means of a dream to allow Harry to see what had happened. > >Which leads to the question: Why does > > Percy think Snape wants to be DADA teacher? > That's been bothering me as well. May be it's one of those old > school rumours being turned into an article of faith and nothing can > be done to dispel them. Every school has them, they are passed on > from one generation to the next. My old school has many but the best > one is that our uniform used to be bright yellow from top to bottom. > No one can verify it but we all know it to be true. So may be it's > the same in Hogwarts I'm not sure, but I'd say that Quirrell might have been a teacher before Harry's arrival at Hogwarts. It's not said anywhere (please, correct me if I'm wrong) that Quirrell begins to teach when Harry begins to attend Hogwarts. Therefore, as Snape's antipathy is so visisble (and maybe the students liked Quirrell) the students sipmly assume that Snape is after DADA job. Or, there was another teacher who was as incompetent as Quirrell or Lockahrt and Snape wasn't particularly fond of him/her. There is still another possibility, namely that either Snape or someone from the staff/students has spread this rumor on purpose. I haven't got a clue what the purpose would be, but it's plausible. It's said that every open rumor has some truth to it, but not the one spread on purpose. And so as to liking Snape and Black. I liked Snape from the very beginning, he's my favorite character, as IMHO he's one of three best-constructed characters in the whole series. The remaining two are Dumbledore and Lupin. But Snape is a real mystery and that's why he's so attractive (OK, I think he's attractive anyway). After reading PoA I began to like Black very much but after a while I stopped, not enirely, but I don't like him as much as before. My musings on the events from the Shrieking Shack brought me to conlcusion that: 1. OK, Sirius was a prisoner, etc. but he's still a Gryffindor (sorry for a cliche) so he might be hot-headed and acting before thinking but his hatred towards Snape is somewhat out of place. 2. Snape is a Slytherin, cunning and faithful to the rule that end justifies the means, so he'd do anything to put Black back to prison and reveal Lupin's compromising relations with Black. Therefore, Snape is for me someone who acts consequently and level-headedly, while Black is acting upon an impulse, and that's tha main reason why I like Snape better. It was possible for me to like them both, but there was also the factor of fanfiction which has greatly influenced my antipathy for Black. And that's all folks from a newbie! Ev vy who's a rabid shipper in fanon, but no-shipper in canon who's so fascinated with HP that she decided to write her MA thesis on literature for children and should be doing this now but prefers to spend some time on interesting discussions ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There's nothing level in our cursed natures But direct villainy. William Shakespeare "Timon of Athens" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 29 13:38:44 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:38:44 -0000 Subject: Sirius' and Rosmerta's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rjm54+eumc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28376 I worked out (through a long and complicated process)that Sirius, remus and Snape will be 35 in book five. From that extract with Rosmerta I thought that maybe she was in sith or seventh year when they started and later had a job in 'The Three Broomsticks'. Just my thoughts, Sofie From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 29 14:04:26 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:04:26 -0000 Subject: Will Harry go to live with Sirius? Message-ID: <9rjnla+v7ts@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28377 The truth is I'd love him too. My heart leaped when Sirius asked him if he would. And I was close to tears when I realised it wasn't a possibility. About Harry's eagerness to go live with Sirius, this is my say. Harry suffered eleven years of emotional abuse from people who were his family. He was lied to and treated like dirt. Then he finds out all this stuff about this magical world and he's part of it. It's every child's dream. He gets to escape from this horrible existence and become a hero. And then this person who (yes I know he did think Sirius was a murderer until earlier in the chapter) knew his parents and is his godfather asks him to come live with him. Of course he's going to leap to say yes, any child who had been though what harry has would. It's a permanant escape from the Durseley's and the light at the end of the tunnel for Harry. Now back to my original point. As much as I'd like Harry to go live with Sirius, I don't think it will happen. it's too tidy and too 'happily ever after' for this series. To be truthful I don't even think Sirius will be cleared, Fudge is far too narrow minded. It's a dream for Harry. If you let it happen then what will he have to keep him going? If Harry ever is truly happy (during these seven books) if everything in his little world is perfect then he'll lose the will to keep fighting. And then he won't be Harry anymore. I'd love some replies to this, Sofie xxx From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Mon Oct 29 14:08:43 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:08:43 -0500 Subject: Snape vs. Sirius (was Grudges) Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B0557B@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 28378 Okay, jeez, sometimes I wish I had Madame Hooch's whistle. Trust my point to get lost in a debate about the background. First off, the bit about seeing Lupin and not Harry/Hermione in the tunnel is well-taken. Yes, his first impulse must have been to catch Lupin while meeting Sirius, thus proving that the two were colluding all year. However: "'I found this at the base of the Whomping Willow,' said Snape, throwing the cloak aside, careful to keep his wand pointing directly at Lupin's chest. 'Very useful, Potter, I thank you....'" (PoA Ch. 19) When he found the cloak, he knew (maybe assumed, but still was right) that it was Harry's. So I agree that at that point, he knew at least Harry was down there, and felt duty-bound to save the kid. Still, my _central point_ in my original post was to observe that Snape too is experiencing some post-traumatic stress during this episode. I believe therefore that both Sirius and Severus need to be cut a break because their mental states are neither of them very stable at the moment. Susanna made a statement about Sirius changing to be more responsible, owing to his 12 years around dementors. I must disagree--let me qualify. We have had numerous discussions in the past about Sirius's mental health. The only way he was able to remain sane, and to retain his powers, was by changing into his canine form. When he was in human form, the dementors' presence caused torture and mental anguish--as some have postulated, clinical depression. I believe the scenes he relived most were the night he realised Peter betrayed them, the scene in the street when Peter framed him, and the time he told Snape how to open the willow. There are probably a number of other regrets, arguments, things he's not proud of, but IMO, those are the Big Three. Yes, I do believe Sirius now has a much deeper sense of his dark side. I believe he lives in a constant fear that he will screw up again, and potentially hurt people he loves and/or respects. But it will take time for him to accept his new awareness and be able to function on more than a subsistence level. I believe he wants to be responsible, I believe he has learned from his mistakes, but I also believe that he's still extremely defensive and scared and depressed and unstable, and not a little bit caught up in his memories. The key here is the idea of flashing back to the time they were teens. He's working on a fight-or-flight set of reactions to his situations. And because of the PTSS, he tends to go the aggressive route first. No, there's little to nothing in canon to suggest he feels this way--except perhaps his confession to Harry and his attitude that he is responsible for James and Lily's deaths. Do I literally mean neither he nor Snape have grown at all? No. In calmer, more rational moments, both show that they can behave like adults. As I said, Snape accepts his duties and there's evidence to suggest he might take professional pride in brewing a complicated potion for its own sake, regardless of helping Lupin. He lapses occasionally, but he manages to keep his mouth shut about Lupin throughout the year, expressing his concerns only to Dumbledore, and only in oblique terms in front of the students. For Sirius's part, in GoF especially, he puts Harry's safety ahead of his own, he's a good listener, and he seems to earnestly want to help. The offer to live with him, I think, comes out of a desire to put the past behind him and begin living again, as well as a sincere paternal interest in Harry's welfare. So yes, both of them have changed. But the old grudges run deep and long, and in that moment, in the Shrieking Shack, I believe both men regress completely. I believe neither Sirius nor Severus can be expected to acknowledge his own doubts, misgivings, or failures, on that issue. MMMfanfic wanted to know if it's possible for rabid Sirius fans to be rabid Severus fans as well. I am one. I love them both--and Lupin, too. I freely acknowledge Sirius has a dark side--every bit as much of one as Severus. I think theirs might be a case of similar personalities clashing because of their very sameness--we frequently detest in others those same traits we display ourselves. I'll gladly defend either one of them--but that doesn't mean I'll let either one off the hook, either, at least not completely. Temporary insanity, such as I believe they each display in the shrieking shack, is about the only excuse I can accept. But they did shake hands, albeit grudgingly, and before the end of the series, I expect to see some resolution between the two, or I shall be sorely disappointed in them both. Gwen (who can only think of about 3 characters in the series whom she actively dislikes--and no, Lockhart's not one of them) From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 29 14:16:21 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:16:21 -0000 Subject: Three favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B0557B@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <9rjobl+7sga@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28379 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" wrote: > Gwen (who can only think of about 3 characters in the series whom > she actively dislikes--and no, Lockhart's not one of them) Can I just ask who? My three would be: 1. Fudge 2. Filch 3. Lockhart 3 Favourites (Not including the Trio) 1. Sirius 2. Remus 3. Molly Weasley From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 29 14:20:02 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:20:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) In-Reply-To: <9ri3bd+35ie@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rjoii+i95h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28380 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote: > (Come on, Sirius lovers, just admit your guy is not as nice as you > think he is, the dark side would just make him more complex and > lovely. Us Snape fans do it all the time!) > > I also have a question stemming from a discussion over at > sugarquill. Is that possible for a rabid Sirius fans to like Snape? > OK, if forced to do so, I'll admit that Sirius might not be everyone's cup of tea. There. I said it. Seriously, I like Lupin and Sirius, and I'm feeling more charitable toward Snape today, but I like them all for different reasons. I like Lupin because he has never done anything that I have a problem with. This is unusual, I think, because I've always read that characters shouldn't be perfect, and that perfection is boring. Well, Lupin is professional, caring, diligent, doesn't rise to Snape's bait, loyal, talented and trustworthy. He doesn't have any character flaws that I can see. OK, he's reserved, but that's not an overtly bad thing. His biggest flaw is something that he can't help - - being a werewolf. So why does the Lupin character work despite his apparent perfection and lack of significant character flaws? Then there's Sirius. Yes, he has flaws, but they are more than outweighed by his virtues. For instance, he detests Snape, but because Dumbledore trusts Snape, that is good enough for Sirius. That's impressive. Compare Snape, who doesn't trust Lupin despite Dumbledore's assurances. Then there's Snape. I must say, I don't like Snape much. Despite the good things he has done, on a day-to-day basis, he goes out of his way to make life difficult for others. Harry. Hermione. Lupin in particular. Neville. In making the pro-Snape argument, I find myself saying things like Snape is a good guy for NOT poisoning Lupin's potion. But I like Snape for a different reason. He makes my other two favorite characters look a bit better by comparison. If Snape didn't exist, who could I cite as proof that Sirius isn't so bad? :-) Snape adds a lot to the conflict in the books, he is mysterious, and he may turn out to have taken actions that were critical to Voldemort's defeat. There isn't nearly so much mystery surrounding someone like Sirius -- we kind of know who he is and why he does what he does. So Snape is certainly a net plus. I'm just not joining his fan club any time soon. Cindy (waiting patiently for Lupin, just once, to really let Snape have it) From tabouli at unite.com.au Mon Oct 29 15:08:04 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:08:04 +1100 Subject: JKR speaks - and mentions Narnia! Message-ID: <000c01c1608b$83984680$d092aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 28381 Ahaa! Now I know the JKR vs CS Lewis thread was abandoned a week or so ago, but I've just found an article in which Jo herself makes a lot of points very similar to mine! (she chuffs smugly). Here's the URL: http://www.smh.com.au/news/0110/29/entertainment/entertain1.html Now I wonder where this interview took place, given that it's in the Sydney Morning Herald? Does anyone more obsessed than me know? I did muse that the article is brimming with some quite serious spoilers, particularly for anyone who hasn't read CoS. And the LOONs among us will note that she professes a loathing for loopholes and inconsistencies... tsk. Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 15:02:58 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:02:58 +0100 Subject: Rowling comments on CS Lewis References: <9rjoii+i95h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <011f01c1608a$cc6c2f80$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 28382 I was working on my JKR link page this afternoon when I ran into an article I'd never seen before. In it the interviewer says the gate to platform 9 3/4 reminds him of the wardrobe in Lewis' first Narnia book. In her response Rowling discusses the differences between HP and Narnia, hitting on several topics we've talked (and tangled!) about here in HPfGU: humor, "preachiness" (and intent behind writing), growing up, sexuality. The issue of "growing up" particularly highlights the kind of change Rowling intends to portray in her characters. As opposed to Narnia, where we see two conversion expereinces (Edmund, Eustace) and many changes of a "character building" variety, Rowling is more interested in the gradual changes brought about by going through adolescence. I've quoted her response below: ---------------------------- Rowling: Narnia is literally a different world, whereas in the Harry books you go into a world within a world that you can see if you happen to belong. A lot of the humour comes from collisions between the magic and the everyday worlds. Generally there isn't much humour in the Narnia books, although I adored them when I was a child. I got so caught up I didn't think CS Lewis was especially preachy. Reading them now I find that his subliminal message isn't very subliminal at all. Really, CSLewis had very different objectives to mine. When I write, I don't intend to make a point or teach philosophy of life. A problem you run into with a series is how the characters grow up ... whether they're allowed to grow up. The characters in Enid Blyton's Famous Five books act in a prepubescent way right through the series. In the Narnia books the children are never allowed to grow up, even though they are growing older. I want Harry Potter and his friends to grow up as well as older, though I'll keep it all humorous, well within the tone of the books. I want them eventually to be truly 17 and discover girlfriends and boyfriends and have sexual feelings - nothing too gritty. Why not allow them to have those feelings? ---------------------------- You can find the entire interview at http://www.smh.com.au/news/0110/29/entertainment/entertain1.html. BTW, can anyone date the picture in this interview? SMH doesn't date the article, but my guess is that it's at least a year old, possibly pre-GoF. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 16:46:43 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:46:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR speaks - and mentions Narnia! References: <000c01c1608b$83984680$d092aecb@price> Message-ID: <013a01c16099$4abf2c30$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 28383 Tabouli, quickest link in the west, hooted > Ahaa! Now I know the JKR vs CS Lewis thread was > abandoned a week or so ago, but I've just found an article > in which Jo herself makes a lot of points very similar to mine! > (she chuffs smugly). Here's the URL: > > http://www.smh.com.au/news/0110/29/entertainment/entertain1.html Rats! You must have got there five minutes before I did - and yes, she *does* make some pretty damn similar points. ;-) I'd say that the article comes from the summer of 1999 and was probably a post-Azkaban interview. I tracked down a 1999 article on the Daily Telegraph from that same time frame with a shot from that series. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Oct 29 17:03:56 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:03:56 -0000 Subject: JKR speaks In-Reply-To: <000c01c1608b$83984680$d092aecb@price> Message-ID: <9rk25s+rok5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28384 Tabouli wrote: > I've just found an article in which Jo herself makes a lot of points very similar to mine! (she chuffs smugly). Here's the URL: > > http://www.smh.com.au/news/0110/29/entertainment/entertain1.html Lots of interesting stuff there. Notice the 'nothing too gritty' on sex, i.e. no teenage pregnancies or backstreet abortions, no Fred finding he can't get it up when it comes to it, no furtive encounters leading to years of guilt. Notice too the mention of children with well-thumbed HP. She may be writing for herself, but, unless her publicity antennae were out, it's children's responses to HP that interest her, not adults'. Also the origin of the name Hogwarts, which she forgot, and then remembered years later. Whisper it who dares, but could she have subliminally got some of her words from Nancy Stouffer after all? Not that that gives NS a case but our minds are deceptive. When I invented Spadini on OT Chatter, he was originally going to be Scalfari, but I discovered he was a real historical figure, who had probably lodged in my mind. David From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Oct 29 17:33:21 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:33:21 -0500 Subject: Sirius and Snape - the jury's still out; PTSD Message-ID: <203A8954.1EFBCDE5.6E93A4F5@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28385 I just wanted to comment on the discussions about the 'prank' committed when they were 16. In PS, Dumbledore gives one view of the incident. In PoA, Snape gives another; Sirius and Lupin confirm that it happened in a general sort of way. I'm fairly firmly of the opinion that this is one of the many progressive revelations about Snape and the background of the first war against Voldemort. We have not heard Sirius' version, or Lupin's, of the events (can a werewolf remember what happened while in wolf form?). I must say I'm somewhat skeptical about PTSD. OK, so JKR may have good knowledge from her AI days. But to me it seems to go against the genre - I think that in general people in HP will bounce back without much apparent effect from things that in reality would be psychologically quite damaging. Just as in action movies, people regularly survive lethal blows almost unharmed. So we will get a few references to the haunted look in his eyes but that's all. And Harry will appear bright eyed and bushy tailed at the beginning of Book 5, moaning about the Dursleys but not seriously affected by the rebirthing - oooh! a prediction! David, slightly unsure *which* genre the books are, but I don't think it matters. __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From mariannayus at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 18:02:55 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:02:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) In-Reply-To: <9ri3bd+35ie@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011029180255.47084.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28386 > > I also have a question stemming from a discussion > over at > sugarquill. Is that possible for a rabid Sirius > fans to like Snape? > > I know many Lupin fans who also likes Snape, many > rabid Snape fans > who like Sirius (Earthwalk of the I Was Right fame > being one.) but I > don't know any Sirius fan who has any remote > affection for the Potion > Master ... Put your hands up guys, I just want to > know. > > > I am a rabid Sirius fan (my fave HP character in fact), but I have to confess that I like Snape quite a lot. If he was teaching my kids, I'd probably be foaming at the mouth, but as a character he is very interesting. Precisely because underneath all that acid and unpleasantness he has integrity, strength of character, and a knowledge of what truly matters when it comes to the big things (Voldemort). That's why I like Sirius, too and I do agree with the dark twin comment. Though I must say that I do not necessarily agree with Snape's fashion and grooming choices. Marsha/Marianna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 29 18:32:54 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:32:54 -0000 Subject: Minerva Not In On Black's Secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rk7cm+oij2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28387 Susanna wrote: > Emm.. Minerva is a registered animagus. She's also pretty strict about rules > and would definately report Sirius and Dumbledore knows that. She'd send Owl > to Ministry immediately and wouldn't listen Dumbledore - far less Harry > telling her Sirius is innocent, Harry's Godfather... so she mustn't know. > Not until is sure Sirius to get a fair trial instead of Fudges immediate > decision of Dementor's Kiss. > Oh, my! I think I disagree. I'd be shocked if McGonagal did something contrary to Dumbledore's plan of keeping Sirius safe and tipped off MoM about Sirius. She has never done anything even remotely disloyal to Dumbledore so far. It would be a huge hiccup in her characterization if she suddenly decided to turn in Sirius against Dumbledore's wishes, particularly now that Voldemort has returned and Dumbledore needs all the help he can get. Maybe she'd argue with Dumbledore, but that's the most she'd do. Frankly, I think she'd accept Dumbledore's opinion that Sirius is innocent, no questions asked. As for why Dumbledore didn't let McGonagal see Sirius transform, as many people have said, Dumbledore gives out information on a need-to- know basis, of course. But I believe he also thinks things out before he gives anyone information that might get them in trouble. One example of this is how Dumbledore handles Sirius throughout GoF. Sirius wants to be closer to Hogwarts, so Dumbledore directs him to a cave, for heaven's sake. Dumbledore doesn't even have people send food to Sirius. And surprisingly, he doesn't direct Sirius to go live with Lupin. I think one reason for that is because Dumbledore doesn't want to incriminate Lupin if he doesn't have to. Now that Voldemort has returned, Dumbledore feels that it is worth sending Sirius to rally the troops. But there's still no reason to risk getting McGonagal in trouble with MoM. (After all, someone is going to have to lead the charge to rescue Dumbledore from Azkaban for all of this serious lawbreaking he is doing). Cindy From bak42 at netzero.net Mon Oct 29 18:52:47 2001 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:52:47 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Eleven Summary and Questions In-Reply-To: <9rhi38+ttee@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c160aa$f57e81a0$277a9e40@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 28388 Questions 1. If you were brand new to the wizarding world and a brand new seeker and you read that the most serious quidditch accidents happened to people playing your position, would you reconsider playing? I would probably at least be having some second thoughts about playing. 2. Snape takes away points for having a library book "outside the school". Wouldn't all the grounds be considered "the school"? Is he just being mean? Yes the grounds would be considered part of the school, and yes, Snape is just being mean. 5. For most sports events you have the announcers' booth with microphones and such, but we know they wouldn't work at Hogwarts. What does Lee Jordan use to commentate? Lee uses a magical megaphone to amplify his voice. 7. What does a Golden Snitch taste like? Tastes like chicken. 8. And a random question for anyone that has ever done a summary. Do you use MS Word? And if so, did you add all those words it didn't recognize? I've never done a summary but I've been adding words to my e-mail program's spell check. ---------------------------------------------------------- Brandon 73% Obsessed with Harry Potter Earth: Mostly harmless --The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy "You know," said Ron, whose hair was on end because of all the times he had run his fingers through it in frustration, "I think it's back to the old Divination standby." "What -- make it up?" --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 29 19:17:59 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:17:59 -0000 Subject: Living With Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rka17+hd78@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28389 Amber wrote: I have problems with Harry agreeing so > readily to live with someone he doesn't know at all. > OK. Let me try this, then. We've seen one significant situation in which Harry is willing to trust and face the unknown to get away from the Dursleys. In PS/SS, he leaves the Dursleys and goes with Hagrid, someone he has only just met, someone his uncle was prepared to shoot. No Professor Lupin is around to vouch for Hagrid either. Harry knows nothing at all of the magical world, and before you know it, he's leaving the only home he has ever had and is in a row boat with a giant carrying a pink umbrella. Fast forward two years. Harry now understands the wizarding world well and feels comfortable in it. He is thinking of living with his parents' best friend, a man Harry now knows is innocent, and his favorite and most trusted professor has just vouched for Sirius. His two best friends have demonstrated their support for Sirius and Lupin by blasting Snape unconscious. Under the circumstances, having Harry ask for a few days to think the offer over, or having Harry decline would be odd indeed compared to Harry's conduct in PS/SS. Cindy (who is running out of arguments to explain Harry's conduct) From yankee00 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 03:39:40 2001 From: yankee00 at earthlink.net (Amanda Rush) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:39:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny inconsistancy? References: <9r9b3j+bqa3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c160b7$22a98060$010000c0@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 28390 It seemed to me, when I first read SS, that Jinnie had to be younger than ten. But I suppose she could have been a little immature for her age, or just really excited. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sofie To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:28 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny inconsistancy? I know this has nothing to do with the original thread for this topic but I'll ask you this now anyway. Did anyone else get the impression from Ginny's behaviour in PS/SS that she was a lot younger than ten? I thought maybe she was 6/7 and then CoS came out and I read it and i was thinking 'what Ginny's 11? She can't be'. I actually re-read the scenes that she featured in, in PS/SS to try and get my head around it. Oh and another thing. After you read GoF and found out about Mungundus Fletcher was in the old crowd. Then when you re-read all the other three did you suddenly notice his being mentioned so much? Was it just me or did anyone else find this? (I apologise for the non- fluency of my writing today but I was in Paris over the weekend and I nackered!) Sofie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details. Before posting, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Mon Oct 29 20:03:36 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:03:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PS/SS Chapter Eleven Summary and Questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28391 Great summary! > -----Original Message----- > Questions > > 1. If you were brand new to the wizarding world and a brand new > seeker and you read that the most serious quidditch accidents > happened to people playing your position, would you reconsider > playing? Ah, time for a history of golf, as I researched it for a silly one-liner in a long-ago chapter of Surfeit of Curses. Golf existed long before the split between the Muggle and Wizarding worlds. >From one of the history sites, I found this - the earliest known instances of playing golf was in the 15th century using wooden clubs. http://www.golfsite.com/golfhistory.html Wooden shafted golf clubs were handmade in various shapes and sizes and very expensive. Many different kinds of wood were used with hickory being the most popular, hence, most wooden shafted clubs are call "hickorys." Considering the clubs were also easily broken, only the wealthy could afford to play. I also found this about golf balls: The leather cased and internally stuffed (feathery) golf ball period may have begun as early as the 1400s or as late as the 1600s and lasted into the early 1850s. The golf balls used during the pre-1700s period may have been wooden balls or leather cased balls that were stuffed with uncombed wool flock (the sajet ball?) or hair. The use of hair or flock as stuffing was most likely a short-lived process as the flock quickly lost its' resilience. Ultimately, early ball makers found using feathers produced a lively, longer lasting golf ball. A feathery golf ball? Sounds vaguely like a Snitch - even looks a bit like one - see http://www.webcom.com/oldgolf/opfeath1.jpg or read about them at http://webcom.com/oldgolf/feathery.html - clearly, golf existed when the wizarding and muggle worlds were more interrelated and there was interraction between the two groups. Further, even though matches were played with Snidgets, it's unlikely that they were commonly used in practices - it would've made more sense to use the feathery golf balls that the wizards used while playing golf for this purpose as well. I believe that Hogwarts, which exists in the Land Where Golf Was Created (Scotland) has traditionally used golf balls in play, perhaps from St Andrews' course, which is the oldest of the prestigious - maybe they traditionally send a gross of balls to some post box annually, from which they are delivered to Hogwarts, without either side interacting with each other. This is the kind of transaction that could have its roots in time immemorial, and it's Just Done That Way. If you're still reading...on to the other questions! > > 2. Snape takes away points for having a library book "outside the > school". Wouldn't all the grounds be considered "the school"? Is he > just being mean? He's being mean, but possibly merely stretching a rule rather than creating one on the spot. I've always assumed points are taken magically - in other words, a prof or prefect says the words, the points are then taken - no further action necessary. If that's the case, won't it have to be tagged to a real rule, otherwise nothing would actually be taken? > > 4. Earlier in the chapter, they decide that having flames in a jar > wouldn't be allowed. Why do they not have a problem with Hermione > performing a charm to make paint flash? Is it not the same kind of > principle? (Wouldn't they be much more likely to be questioned in > front of that many people than they would by themselves?) It might be the kind of charm. A firecharm could be dangerous - a flashing paint (and I take this to mean changing colors, not flashing sparks) charm could only drench spectators in red and gold inks. > > 5. For most sports events you have the announcers' booth with > microphones and such, but we know they wouldn't work at Hogwarts. > What does Lee Jordan use to commentate? I agree - a sonorus charm. > 6. Hermione gets to Snape and light her little fire. He notices it > and then she scoops it back up and leaves. How does she do that? > How does Snape notice he is on fire, but not notice Hermione > crouching by his side? Perhaps the creator of the flame can touch it, but nobody else? Hm. This would be useful on snowfort-building-day... > > 7. What does a Golden Snitch taste like? A partriage in a pear tree? > > 8. And a random question for anyone that has ever done a summary. Do > you use MS Word? And if so, did you add all those words it didn't > recognize? Nah - I'd already added all of them while writing & beta reading fanfics From Calypso8604 at aol.com Mon Oct 29 20:22:09 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:22:09 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' and Rosmerta's age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28392 In a message dated 10/29/01 8:40:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk writes: > I worked out (through a long and complicated process)that Sirius, > remus and Snape will be 35 in book five. That wasn't necessary...^_^. JKR has stated in chats that Severus is 36 and we know MWPP were in his year.... Rosmerta was probably in her very late teens then (when MWPP were in school)....No reason why I think this, it just makes sense to me ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 20:23:57 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:23:57 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny inconsistancy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28393 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: "Amanda Rush" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny inconsistancy? >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:39:40 -0500 > >It seemed to me, when I first read SS, that Jinnie had to be younger than >ten. But I suppose she could have been a little immature for her age, or >just really excited. A 10-year old girl sees the legend of Wizarding World, one who saved the World at the age of one, beating the evil wizard whose name her parents are terrified to mention (everyone else is, too, as far as she knows). Harry is her idol. Of course Ginny was absolutely excited to see him! And, she was only ten. Her brother Ron wasn't acting maturely when he saw /his/ idol, Krum (and Ron was 14!) If a 10-year-old Elvis-fan saw Elvis Presley in crowd back at 60's... I think she'd behaved pretty much the same way. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Calypso8604 at aol.com Mon Oct 29 20:25:33 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:25:33 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Snape vs. Sirius (was Grudges) Message-ID: <4e.d4c868.290f153d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28394 In a message dated 10/29/01 9:13:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu writes: > First off, the bit about seeing Lupin and not Harry/Hermione in the tunnel > is well-taken. That is easily explained. The Weasleys said something about tunnel in the Whomping Willow that looked as if it led into the Hogsmeade....in other words the map stops at part of the tunnel and doesn't show the shack, where Sirius, Harry, Hermione, and Ron were [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calypso8604 at aol.com Mon Oct 29 20:35:46 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:35:46 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Three favourite and three favourite characters. Message-ID: <16.14782d6a.290f17a2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28395 Oh, this is a tough one....I cannot possibly pick only *THREE* favorites....least favorites I can.. CALYPSO'S 3 LEAST FAVORITE CHARACTERS 1. Voldemort - What can I say? I love to hate the bad guy...The actual bad guy, not supposedly mean people like Snape, I love Snape. NOTE: This is Voldemort, not Tom Marvolo Riddle 2. Lucius Malfoy - The guy is an evil, arrogant bastard. He's corrupted his son, I tell you! 3. Penelope Clearwater - She took *my* Percy -_-.....Ok, maybe Fudge is a little more dislikable than Penny, but it's close ^_^ FAVORITE CHARACTERS OF THIS VERY SECOND: Lily, Remus, Sirius, Snape, Hermione, Percy, Fleur, Tom (Fanon!Tom..), Flitwick, Dobby, Lee Jordan........NOTE: Favorites subject to change.... Well, those are my choices of the moment. Ask again tomorrow I guarantee the answer will be different ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 29 20:58:29 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:58:29 -0000 Subject: Three favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <16.14782d6a.290f17a2@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rkftl+rks1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28396 I need a working definition of "least favorite." You know, do we mean characters we love to hate, or characters of whom we hope we've seen the last? I guess I'll do the list of favorites to exclude HRH, and to refer to characters who consistently and greatly enhance the scenes in which they appear. For the list of least favorites, I'll go with characters that I don't like very much, even though we are supposed to like them or at least tolerate them. FAVORITES 1. Lupin (just gotta know more!). 2. Moody (I bought his whole act from minute-one. I wouldn't change a thing. He's so wonderful that he doesn't even need a support group). 3. Vernon Dursley. (He's quite a riot in all four books, but especially in PoA, and I really liked the Dursley scenes in GoF as well. He absolutely makes those scenes happen.) Honorable mentions go to Sir Cadogan ("Clap these loons in irons!") and Aunt Marge (particularly as Jim Dale voices her). LEAST FAVORITE 1. Winky (is it the dialect, the whining, the self-pity, something else? I just don't know. Maybe she'll redeem herself in later books.) 2. Fleur (if female characters are going to be beautiful but not so nice, they had better be more competent at magic than Fleur). 3. Lockhart. Uh, yeah, I think I'll mention Lockhart. Honorable mention goes to Dobby, for being the character who improved the most in terms of likeability over the series. Cindy From Calypso8604 at aol.com Mon Oct 29 21:06:42 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:06:42 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three favourite and three favourite characters. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28397 In a message dated 10/29/01 4:01:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes: > Fleur (if female characters are going to be beautiful but not so > nice, they had better be more competent at magic than Fleur). Just because she was last place in a couple of Tri-Wizard competitions does not mean she is incompetent. She *was* a champion after all, the best choice from all of Beauxbatons, which comes off as a pretty damn good school to me! If you're referring to Ollivander's comment about her wand core, I say there is nothing wrong with having a bit of your heritage go into your wand...If anything, that would help! ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 21:10:32 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:10:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Minerva Not In On Black's Secret Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28398 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >Oh, my! I think I disagree. I'd be shocked if McGonagal did >something contrary to Dumbledore's plan of keeping Sirius safe and >tipped off MoM about Sirius. She has never done anything even >remotely disloyal to Dumbledore so far. It would be a huge hiccup in >her characterization if she suddenly decided to turn in Sirius >against Dumbledore's wishes, particularly now that Voldemort has >returned and Dumbledore needs all the help he can get. Maybe she'd >argue with Dumbledore, but that's the most she'd do. Frankly, I >think she'd accept Dumbledore's opinion that Sirius is innocent, no >questions asked. No questions? Oh no - I don't think she's that gullible. She wouldn't just... "He's innocent" - just when she sees him breaking the law??? She'd tell then. This is not the way for her. If Dumbledore lets her know - PP had been in Gryffindor house for about seven years (presuming Percy had him since he was eleven) and she didn't notice as the Head of Gryffindor, so this part would be reprimand to her (she should have noticed, you know - and because she didn't, students were in danger) >As for why Dumbledore didn't let McGonagal see Sirius transform, as >many people have said, Dumbledore gives out information on a need-to- >know basis, of course. But I believe he also thinks things out >before he gives anyone information that might get them in trouble. He does that. >One example of this is how Dumbledore handles Sirius throughout GoF. >Sirius wants to be closer to Hogwarts, so Dumbledore directs him to a >cave, for heaven's sake. Dumbledore doesn't even have people send >food to Sirius. And surprisingly, he doesn't direct Sirius to go >live with Lupin. I think one reason for that is because Dumbledore >doesn't want to incriminate Lupin if he doesn't have to. Now that >Voldemort has returned, Dumbledore feels that it is worth sending >Sirius to rally the troops. But there's still no reason to risk >getting McGonagal in trouble with MoM. (After all, someone is going >to have to lead the charge to rescue Dumbledore from Azkaban for all >of this serious lawbreaking he is doing). We don't know what's going to happen. Personally, I'd like to see Sirius getting his trial in the beginning first 3 chapters of the next book, on Harry's birthday, perhaps. (Would be a great birthday-gift to get his godfather to live with instead of Dursleys) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From eyre68 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 21:24:16 2001 From: eyre68 at yahoo.com (JayKay) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:24:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011029212416.58730.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28399 In no particular order... Least favorite: 1. The Dursleys, collectively 2. Cornelius Fudge, for being such a tunnel-visioned little paperpusher 3. Sirius Black. I know, I know -- I'm leaving myself open to a lynch mob for saying that. Sorry, Sirius supporters. :) Filch, Winky and Lockhart were considered for the list, but I find them annoying without actively disliking them. I also don't like Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy, but since we're not really supposed to, I decided to leave them off the list. Most favorite: 1. Remus Lupin 2. Severus Snape 3. Albus Dumbledore Hagrid is also really high on the list. And this will sound weird, but I really like the mandrakes. I know they're not technically characters, but still, I love those little things. ===== "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." ~~Albus Dumbledore, _Chamber of Secrets_ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From john at walton.vu Mon Oct 29 21:26:46 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:26:46 +0000 Subject: ADMIN: HP Convention? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28400 If anybody is interested in exploring the possibilities of holding a Harry Potter convention, please head on over to HPFGU-Convention, where we're discussing it! www.yahoogroups.com/group/HPFGU-Convention --John ____________________________________________ "One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place." -'Mick Travers', Malcolm McDowell's character in "If..." (1968) John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 21:43:27 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:43:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape knowing it was Harry's cloak Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28401 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com > >One theory jumps to mind: It was, I think, originally James' cloak? I > >wouldn't be surprised if Snape recognised it immediately from his own > >runins with WMPP, put two and two together like lightning and jumped >up >and down with glee. In his mind. Any chance to expell that >dispicable >Potter boy would have him in fits... School rule: All student's clothes must have name-tag in them. Headmaster Dumbledore gave it to him, and held it before that. Maybe... maybe it has a name-tag on it? (plus a tracker so that Dumbledore knows what Harry's doing with it!) It may only say Potter, though, if it was a family heirloom. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Oct 29 21:45:21 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:45:21 -0000 Subject: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <20011029212416.58730.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rkilh+5bfl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28402 My list should be no surprise to anyone who has ever read anything I've ever posted, but what can I say? I am redundantly repetitive. Least Favorites: 1. LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART 2. Trelawney 3. Hagrid Favorites: 1. Harry 2. Harry 3. Harry 4. Dumbledore --jenny from ravenclaw, who can't believe no one else loves Harry as much as she does - or even a little ****************************************************************** From jfenne at uwalumni.com Mon Oct 29 21:51:33 2001 From: jfenne at uwalumni.com (Jennifer Fenne) Date: 29 Oct 2001 13:51:33 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Living With Sirius Message-ID: <20011029215133.924.cpmta@c014.snv.cp.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28403 An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Calypso8604 at aol.com Mon Oct 29 21:55:40 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:55:40 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28404 In a message dated 10/29/01 4:51:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, meboriqua at aol.com writes: > jenny from ravenclaw, who can't believe no one else loves Harry as > much as she does - or even a little Ah...I was assuming it was Favorite characters besides the obvious favorite of Harry...... ...Am I the only one who finds Lockhart highly amusing? I could not stand him when I first read CoS, but when I went back and read it again I was cracking up at his ego and stupid remarks..... ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MalfoyChicka3121 at aol.com Mon Oct 29 22:03:55 2001 From: MalfoyChicka3121 at aol.com (MalfoyChicka3121 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:03:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. Message-ID: <6f.1cd58535.290f2c4b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28405 i know, i don't get it, what is so horrible about Lockhart? ok, i'm new to this list, (heya everyone) i've been lurking about, but this seems like a very interesting group. i can learn a lot. Least Favorites: Hagrid, i dont know what it is, i just can't stand him Pansy Parkinson Winky Favorites: Draco Malfoy (love the bad guys) Harry Lupin, he reminds me of my 7th grade teacher who i absolutely adored ~Chelse~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 22:21:36 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:21:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28406 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >IMHO, Snape is perfectly happy where he is as Potions Master (which is >supported by the discussion about how Snape's personality goes along well >with the discipline of Potions). Which leads to the question: Why does >Percy think Snape wants to be DADA teacher? > >James Andrewartha > Because Snape had criticised Quirrel (Someone who faints at a mention of a troll??? Wasn't really good at the subject, was he?) - and possibly knew he was a dark wizard, acting accordingly. This, to Percy, meant only that he was envious for the job as potions is generally considered the "lowest" subject - DADA is the "highest". Except for the likes of Snape, who truly enjoys potions. He's an expert in potions - and while that is respectable, his teaching skill is below marks. It's possible Snape felt Voldemort in Quirrel (and told Dumbledore, who, however, took seemingly no action as yet). Maybe Dumbledore decided that it would be excellent DADA practice for Harry to defeat Quirrel during his first year- to prepare him for the upcoming fight with Voldemort, as well as the good way of getting rid of Quirrel the dark wizard without raising his doubts. First, Dumbledore didn't destroy the stone immediately. Second, he told Harry about the mirror of the Erised. Third, he sent Harry the invisibility cloak. I mean really, the whole thing was quite a setup. Get-info-from-Hagrid. (Must be very skilled.. but you can) Use-it-to-get-past-the-three-headed-dog. defeat-the-plant-by-a-simple-fire-spell(requires knowledge of Herbology) play-an-excellent-chess-game(show you have a good sense of strategy) solve-a-riddle-(cool logic in a heated place) and last, -show you're for the right. Defeat- Quirrel the dark wizard. It was hard- but it was a TEST for the Trio as well as education. It tought them team-work - and that the one you doubt first, might be innocent - and that standing up for right - even if you break a rule of two when doing so - you are doing the right thing (giving them points) - and that some of your teachers may actually be evil so watch out. And thus becoming Harry's trusted mentor, the REAL aim. (Besides, I'm sure Dumbledore wants someone to tell him what kind of teachers he has in his staff and an observant, unprejudiced student is the best to provide that info). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From bricken at tenbit.pl Mon Oct 29 22:35:18 2001 From: bricken at tenbit.pl (Ev vy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:35:18 +0100 Subject: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. References: <9rkilh+5bfl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <004101c160c9$fd7ff900$df08f1d5@OSLII> No: HPFGUIDX 28407 I hope I won't be skinned alive for who I'm goin to list as my least and most favorite characters. Most favorite: 1. Snape - always and forever, from the first moment till the last one; for me he's the most interesting character, the most mysterious, thus most attractive. 2. Lupin - the same, although he's a bit less mysterious, maybe because he's more approachable. 3. Voldemort *ducks heavy objects* - yes indeed, he's the evil character and usually the evil ones are most intriguing, and so is Voldemort Least favorite: 1. Rita Skeeter - it's obvious why, I take her for what she is, an extremely nosy person and I hate such people. 2. Lockhart - now that's a g*t. 3. Black *ducks a piano* - OK, you seem to defend him so much, but I don't like the guy, and that's it. Nothing personal. 4. Harry *ducks another piano* - the character isn't working for me anymore, he's a sweet and brave boy, etc. But... I don't really know. And this means I have to re-read HP to find the reasons. Ev vy (it is I, Eve Riddle from Slytherin) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There's nothing level in our cursed natures But direct villainy. William Shakespeare "Timon of Athens" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 23:18:21 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:18:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE:RE: Chapter Summaries - Sirius + Snape - Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28408 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE:RE: Chapter Summaries - Sirius + Snape - >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 04:02:24 -0000 > >Derry wrote: > > > Harry has had people rhapsodising over what a fantastic Seeker he > > is. Wouldn't it be nice to be well-known for something he's > > _done_ rather than something he _is_? Considering he hasn't been > > outstanding at lessons, it would be reassuring to have something to > > prove that he does belong in the wizarding world. > >Yes, that is how Harry feels about playing Quidditch. (Unfortunately, >it doesn't seem to make him any more sympathetic with Ron's similar >desire to prove himself.) Therefore, another Quidditch plot line >that I haven't written about is how distraught Harry would feel if he >found out that the reason he is a "natural" Seeker is because he >acquired Tom Riddle's Seeker ability as well as his Parselmouth. I think it's from Harry's early childhood. Sirius had promised Harry a flight(because Harry loved flying) - but then James made him promise he'd not take Harry on Sirius's, James's or Lily's broomstick. (Or Lupin's or Pettigrew's). Sirius felt bound to keep both promises so he gave Harry a broomstick of his own (Firebolt) - and took Harry on flight on /Harry's/ broomstick(keeping his word to James because they hadn't discussed Harry's broomstick). He may have say been standing behind Harry, instructing him to streatch his hand and say "up" - doing the same quietly himself at the same time, so that it would seem to Harry that it'd been /Harry/ himself to make it do that. Then they'd taken a brief flight (naturally Sirius would make sure Harry wouldn't fall) - but then Lily and James had seen them. James complained about Sirius's promise. "It's Harry's broomstick, Prongs. I just gave it to him for his birthday. We were just doing a test-drive. I never said anything about Harry's broomstick, did I?" - Lily intervening and she'd say quite a lot of things to Sirius... "If I see you doing anything like this again... You just don't do things like that with a one-year-old!". "I promise I won't let you see..." "Oh no! I won't have you do it under James' invisibility cloak either! You won't DO it"... Just thinking that Sirius might have been a bit unfit to care for a young child, but much better taking care of an adolescent... one thing that may have worked on him giving up on Harry. >Susanna Luhtenan wrote: > > > Though he did have access to the Daily Prophet to see Pettigrew as > > Ron's rat. (My guess is, that a wizard guard - only one, - was > > reading it with his back turned, and while Sirus' cell was a bit > > off - he took his eye into his hand and looked - which he could do > > due to being animagus. > >It was Fudge's copy of the Daily Prophet. "Yet I met Black on my last >inspection of Azkaban. You know, most of the prisoners in there sit >muttering to themselves in the dark; there's no sense in them... but >I was shocked at how normal Black seemed. He spoke quite rationally >to me. It was unnerving. You'd have thought he was merely bored -- >asked if I'd finished with my newspaper, cool as you please, said he >missed doing the crossword." Oh... I forgot about that. > > Dropping a finger I figure also an animagus trick...) > >Maybe, but whether it was Animagery or biting it off, the finger was >permanently gone, even in rat form. It was - but was it so because Pettigrew wasn't exactly able to get it back (because the Ministry took it as evidence)? Also, I've heard of a cult where a traitor shows repent (and avoids death) by giving a piece of his flesh to the cult-leader (usually a finger). Maybe that's what Pettigrew did. Paid for his betrayal with his finger when Sirius confronted him instead of trying to frame Sirius? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Mon Oct 29 23:34:57 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:34:57 -0000 Subject: Three favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rkp31+43ge@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28409 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Calypso8604 at a... wrote: Cindy wrote: > > Fleur (if female characters are going to be beautiful but not so > > nice, they had better be more competent at magic than Fleur). > Calypso wrote: > Just because she was last place in a couple of Tri-Wizard competitions does > not mean she is incompetent. She *was* a champion after all, the best choice > from all of Beauxbatons, which comes off as a pretty damn good school to me! > If you're referring to Ollivander's comment about her wand core, I say there > is nothing wrong with having a bit of your heritage go into your wand...If > anything, that would help! OK, OK! *backpedaling furiously* Fleur's *not* incompetent. She's just not nice, rude, condescending, aloof, lacking in compassion, and an ungracious guest. Her positive traits are, um, she got through the tasks without being killed. Oh, and she's pretty. :-) For better or worse, JKR makes Fleur a character not to like, and she does this on purpose (as opposed to having it be a failed characterization or something). In a way, Fleur gets cheated a bit, doesn't she? Cedric and Harry have lots of interaction (and Cedric gets to reveal his outstanding character). Harry interacts with Krum in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" (and Krum gets to reveal his insecurities). But where is Fleur's big scene with Harry where she gets to reveal her character? There really isn't one, other than thanking him for saving her sister. So of the characters on my Least Favorite list, maybe Fleur is the one who could have escaped with some additional development. We'll see if she gets it. Cindy From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 00:03:10 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:03:10 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Harry's talent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28410 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com I agree. and, I think that in book #2, when Harry's letters have been stolen, Hedwig locked up so he can't send mail, gets a warning against going to Hogwarts, is blocked from the platform - and then, sending Hedwig doesn't even gross his mind - all he thinks is: "Must get to Hogwarts. Need another transport" so he - without thinking - accepts Ron's offer. If he'd sent Hedwig, I think that - well, Hedwig would have been killed - or at least captured. Harry would have lost Hedwig and he wouldn't want that (And not letter getting into Hogwarts, them getting trouble for not getting into school). (It is very easy to spot - so far as we know, Harry's Hedwig is just about the only Snow-white Owl there is). They do consider Mr. and Mrs. Weasley getting home. And, with them blocked away (Ron and Harry don't even know are they alive). Going on the Ford Anglia was the best option they could take. Harry couldn't think of sending Hedwig (subconciously, both he and Ron dismissed it - because it'd risk Hedwig). Adults tell them they should have sent Hedwig - but they didn't know about Dobby - or the danger. (Compare Sirius telling Harry not using Hedwig/Pigwidgeon because it's risky). Ron broke his wand - and that saved him, Harry and Ginny from Lockhart's memory charm. Ron gets new wand - and his happy to get something new! And, this is HIS wand (not Charlie's), in perfect shape, thus enabeling him to perform better spells. Another thing of Harry's talent of doing the Right - this time shared with Ron. However, he doesn't always act well, usually when he does think first: GoF: Harry sees Barty Crouch Jr. at Snape's office, but thinks it's making no sense - and disregards it. (Dursley-method. If it's not sensible, it doesn't exist. He really should get away from them. This kind of self-doubt may be lethal to Harry...). Snape accuses Harry of stealing ingredients used for Polyjuice-potion and threatens him with Veritaserum. (Harry may have realised a Barty Crouch pretending to be Moody at this point - or Hermione, if he'd told her about it). Crouch gave Harry Veritaserum (that's why he felt like poison coming out when he told Dumbledore and Sirius all about it, I think) (3 drops, you tell your deepest secrets according to Snape, and I don't think he lies about potion effects. My guessing: 2 drops, you give full, honest answer, holding nothing back, to questions when asked. 1 drop simply prevents you from lying). Harry may have gotten the 2-drop doze. >Harry's sense of connection with and concern for Sirius, his desire to live >with Sirius (not simply to live away from the Dursleys) build over the >course of the chapter. He accepts Black's invitation on impulse, but as >someone pointed out recently on another thread, Harry has a talent for >doing the right thing at the right moment, before he's thought it through. >It's after he's accepted Sirius' offer that the weight of what Harry has >learned about Sirius--his innocence, his loyalty to Harry's parents and his >concern for Harry himself, etc.--begins to sink in and makes the prospect >of living with his godfather the happiest thought he can conjure. > >Jennifer (who wouldn't have agreed quite so fast to Sirius' invitation, but >then again lacks Harry's ability to act well without thinking) > > > >On Wisconsin! Get your free University of Wisconsin alumni e-mail at >http://uwalumni.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 00:07:24 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:07:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why Live With The Dursleys In-Reply-To: <9rjnla+v7ts@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011030000724.58701.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28411 Frankly this has been puzzling me ever from the first book on. *Why* does Harry keep going back to those horrible people? (yes I know he's protected while in their care but *he* doesn't know that so why doesn't he take action to escape?). By PoA Harry has learned of at least two alternatives to the Dursleys. He could stay with the Weasleys who like him and might even be persuaded to accept a little something for room and board *or* he could spend his summers at the Leaky Cauldron, (he's got the money). Yet still he goes dutifully back to Privet drive every summer, why? I suspect that deep down part of Harry still hopes someday, somehow the Dursleys will change. They are his only family after all, he would like them to care about him and he keeps hoping they will. As we see when he wonders if maybe Uncle Vernon is talking about his birthday in PoA or in GOF when he wonders if maybe they've come to see him do his third task. Personally I think Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia are lost causes but I would like to see Dudley become Harry's friend. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 30 00:17:08 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:17:08 -0000 Subject: Snape knowing it was Harry's cloak In-Reply-To: <20011029075419.2325.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <9rkri4+t6ik@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28412 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Liz wrote: > > From: "Cindy C." > > Subject: Re: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) > > > > Anyway, when Snape finds the cloak, he doesn't necessarily know that > > it is Harry's cloak. Harry is not the only wizard with an > > invisibility cloak (Moody has one). For all Snape knows, it might be > > Lupin's cloak, and Lupin might have used the cloak to sneak out if he > > were on his way to transform. > > One theory jumps to mind: It was, I think, originally James' cloak? I wouldn't be surprised if Snape recognised it immediately from his own runins with WMPP, put two and two together like lightning and jumped up and down with glee. In his mind. Any chance to expell that dispicable Potter boy would have him in fits... We know that such cloaks are very rare - as far as we know, no one else at Hogwarts has one. And this following dialogue from PoA Chap. 14...... "Mr. Malfoy then saw an extraordinary apparition. Can you imagine what it might have been, Potter?" "No," said Harry, now trying to sound innocently curious. "It was your head, Potter. Floating in midair." There was a long silence. "Maybe he'd better go to Madam Pomfrey," said Harry. "If he's seeing things like --" "What would your head have been doing in Hogsmeade, Potter?" said Snape softly. "Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body has permission to be in Hogsmeade." "I know that," said Harry, striving to keep his face free of guilt or fear. "It sounds like Malfoy's having hallucin --" "Malfoy is not having hallucinations," snarled Snape, and he bent down, a hand on each arm of Harry's chair, so that their faces were a foot apart. "If your head was in Hogsmeade, so was the rest of you." ...suggests that Snape already suspected that Harry had James' old cloak. - CMC From dkgrubb at earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 00:17:15 2001 From: dkgrubb at earthlink.net (dkgrubb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:17:15 -0000 Subject: Why Live With The Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20011030000724.58701.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rkrib+6or1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28413 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch < rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote: > Frankly this has been puzzling me ever from the > first book on. *Why* does Harry keep going back to > those horrible people? (yes I know he's protected > while in their care but *he* doesn't know that so why > doesn't he take action to escape?). > By PoA Harry has learned of at least two > alternatives to the Dursleys. He could stay with the > Weasleys who like him and might even be persuaded to > accept a little something for room and board *or* he > could spend his summers at the Leaky Cauldron, (he's > got the money). > Yet still he goes dutifully back to Privet drive > every summer, why? This question bothers me too. After Harry spent two weeks at the Leaky Cauldron, it seemed very unlikely he would ever go back to Privet Dr. I can only imagine that Dumbledore told him he had to, and Harry can't argue his way out of it. There has not been any hint in canon of Harry hoping that any of the Dursleys can be "improved". Debra From dkewpie at pacbell.net Tue Oct 30 00:19:22 2001 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:19:22 -0000 Subject: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <004101c160c9$fd7ff900$df08f1d5@OSLII> Message-ID: <9rkrma+7qc3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28414 most favorite: 1) Snape (pretty much same reason as why most Snape fans love him: mysterious, complex, very funny and great sarcastic dialgoues, definitely an extremely intriging character, love him since book 1) 2) Harry (usually I don't like main characters but he's definitely an exception) 3) Draco (love him being a nasty brat, love his childishness and his insults to others, while also enjoy him getting punish at the same time) least favoirte: 1) Dobby (too annoying) 2) Winky (even worse than Dobby) 3) Rita seeker (urgh!!) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 30 00:27:51 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:27:51 -0000 Subject: Snape knowing it was Harry's cloak In-Reply-To: <20011029075419.2325.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <9rks67+r1s0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28415 Cindy wrote: > > > I don't think this helps Snape, either. First, I am unsure how, when > > Snape find the cloak next to the willow, that he knows it belongs to > > Harry. Mini-FLINT? > > > Liz wrote: > One theory jumps to mind: It was, I think, originally James' cloak? I wouldn't be surprised if Snape recognised it immediately from his own runins with WMPP, put two and two together like lightning and jumped up and down with glee. In his mind. Any chance to expell that dispicable Potter boy would have him in fits... I still don't get it. MWPP detest Snape. They like to play jokes on him. They use the cloak to play these joke and wreak havoc in general. So how would Snape find out James has an invisibility cloak? He wouldn't have recognized James under it, as James would have been invisible when Snape "sees" him. MWPP wouldn't have told Snape about it, as part of the value of a cloak is keeping it secret. (I think only Harry, Ron, Hermione and Dumbledore know about Harry's cloak. Casual acquaintances such as Neville or Seamus do not). So how exactly is Snape so confident that Harry has a cloak and Harry's cloak is outside the willow? Cindy (wondering if she is being especially dense on this issue) From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Oct 30 01:00:11 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:00:11 +1100 Subject: Least favorite characters & "empty Harry"?? Message-ID: <002a01c160de$4eaab0e0$9e856fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 28416 Ooo, now let me think. As I've mentioned before, when it comes to fictional characters, I don't apply the same criteria I would to real people (i.e. would I like them): I judge by whether I think they're well-drawn and interesting and believable. My least favorites on this score have always been: 1. Crabbe 'n' Goyle (straight from the mute henchmen mold) 2. Voldemort (the Evil Overlord caricature who looks like an extra from the animated Lord of the Rings)(Tom Riddle had much more style) On these grounds, I think Snape is great, because he's intriguing and complex and challenging for the reader without being a caricature. I doubt that I'd like someone like that in person, but that's irrelevant. I also think Rita is masterly, because even though she's a thoroughly nasty piece of work, she's a wonderful sketch of a bloodsucking, shameless tabloid reporter (hence Skeeter, no doubt). As for Lockhart, he *is* a caricature, but a very amusing one IMO (says the founder of LIGHT RELIEF). Fleur is the one character where I wish JKR *had* taken a slightly more feminist stance (and this is unusual for me: I'm usually a stickler for realism not implausibly idealised role modelling and tokenism). I totally agree that Fleur's performance, for an impartially selected Triwizard champion who is supposedly the top representative from one of Europe's three top wizarding schools, is woeful. "Ze Grindylows, zey attacked me!" indeed (especially when Hogwarts students learnt Grindylow defence in third year). Given that she is the only female champion out of four and only a supporting character, I *wish* JKR had let her come third and put in a better performance. (Is she suggesting that Beauxbatons is too chic and sophisticated to produce good wizards? Do they have a DADA teacher like Lockhart??). One more thing - a friend of mine went to a paper on HP a while ago (never mentioned this), in which the sneering academic said that HP was popular because Harry was an "empty" character, with no real personality or knowledge, into whom children could project themselves. Sacrilege! I told my friend, wishing I'd gone to cry her down. What do people think of this blasphemous theory? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 00:58:32 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:58:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Live With The Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28417 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Live With The Dursleys >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:07:24 -0800 (PST) > > Frankly this has been puzzling me ever from the >first book on. *Why* does Harry keep going back to >those horrible people? (yes I know he's protected >while in their care but *he* doesn't know that so why >doesn't he take action to escape?). But he did - early PoA, remember? > By PoA Harry has learned of at least two >alternatives to the Dursleys. He could stay with the >Weasleys who like him and might even be persuaded to >accept a little something for room and board *or* he >could spend his summers at the Leaky Cauldron, (he's >got the money). But he's not exactly aware how long the money would last (remember him dreaming about the Firebolt, but thinking he might not afford it?) Weasley's - yes well, he could, and Molly does have a lots of love to give - but well... > Yet still he goes dutifully back to Privet drive >every summer, why? I suspect that deep down part of >Harry still hopes someday, somehow the Dursleys will >change. They are his only family after all, he would >like them to care about him and he keeps hoping they >will. As we see when he wonders if maybe Uncle Vernon >is talking about his birthday in PoA or in GOF when he >wonders if maybe they've come to see him do his third >task. > Personally I think Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia >are lost causes but I would like to see Dudley become >Harry's friend. Nice thought, but I think it's something else. First, Vernon picks Harry up every summer when he comes out of train. Harry would have to face him down to stay in Leaky Cauldron/Weasleys. And, Harry is not able to do that. It's only when Marge makes Harry angry by contiously saying Harry is misbehaving and a no-good person (while Harry was being polite to her and she herself very insulting to Harry) or, worse, insulting Harry's parents, that Harry was able to do that. His magic was leaking over. He left. He does take action. Sirius - as godfather - is what Harry considers legitimate one to stay with. Besides, after Harry told Vernon about Sirius - cleverly leaving out that Sirius was innocent - he had Sirius as back-up. "Be nice or my godfather comes and gets you" - with Dursleys thinking of Sirius as a murderer(and as wizard, double-threat at that)... it's not as bad anymore. My question is, rather, if Vernon really hates Harry so much, why is he dutifully at Platform 9 at King's Cross each time Harry's semester has ended? And Vernon is not Harry's relative, Petunia and Dudley are. Why Harry asked Vernon to sign the permission for Hogsmeade - not his Aunt Petunia, who's the only adult blood-relative? We always see these things between Vernon/Harry - and Harry/Dudley. What's with Harry and Auntie? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 01:01:13 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:01:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' defender, hairy Sisters In-Reply-To: <005801c15f57$31347740$62846fcb@price> Message-ID: <20011030010113.9196.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28418 --- Tabouli wrote: > On a related, albeit risque topic given recent ire > on this list, I've been wondering whether the Weird > Sisters (all very Shakespearean) are transvestites. > I mean, surely "sisters" implies that the band > members are female, the Shakespeare reference is to > female characters, yet they are all extremely hairy, > which suggests they are likely to be male (unless > witches are more hirsuite than Muggle women?). Then > again, wizards mostly seem to wear pretty unisex > clothes, which rather wrecks the point of this. I don't think 'Twisted Sister' is an all girl band so why should the Weird Sisters be? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sherratt at mediaone.net Tue Oct 30 01:01:57 2001 From: sherratt at mediaone.net (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:01:57 -0000 Subject: Snape and DADA position - misinformation In-Reply-To: <003d01c16074$3ddab220$8c08f1d5@OSLII> Message-ID: <9rku65+b84n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28419 I wondered about that too - if it wasn't part of Snape's "cover" somehow. Maybe it is so Snape can have a plausable grievance against Dumbledore if he ever has to prove his bona fides to Voldemort. "Why would I want to help Dumbledore? He's deliberately kept me from the DADA position for years! He's always been suspicious of me, you know..." That sort of thing. Wanda --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ev vy" wrote: There is still another possibility, namely that either Snape or someone from the staff/students has spread this rumor on purpose. I haven't got a clue what the purpose would be, but it's plausible. It's said that every open rumor has some truth to it, but not the one spread on purpose. From Calypso8604 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 01:08:57 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:08:57 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' defender, hairy Sisters Message-ID: <49.13111b34.290f57a9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28420 In a message dated 10/29/01 8:02:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com writes: > > > I don't think 'Twisted Sister' is an all girl band > so why should the Weird Sisters be? > Sister just sounds like an abstract, artsy name whereas Sisters implies an all-girl group. Well, all leads are girls at least. The plural makes a difference. The group Sister Hazel is guys but they are named after an actual person....But a band that is Anything Sisters says the group was made up of girls.. Well, i know what I was trying to say but I'm sure no one else got it....*sigh* I can't verbalize very well today ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 01:27:06 2001 From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (Susanna Luhtanen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 03:27:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Least favorite characters & "empty Harry"?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28421 Susanna Luhtanen s_luhtanen at hotmail.com >From: "Tabouli" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Least favorite characters & "empty Harry"?? >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:00:11 +1100 > >Ooo, now let me think. As I've mentioned before, when it comes to >fictional characters, I don't apply the same criteria I would to real >people (i.e. would I like them): I judge by whether I think they're >well-drawn and interesting and believable. My least favorites on this >score have always been: > >1. Crabbe 'n' Goyle (straight from the mute henchmen mold) >2. Voldemort (the Evil Overlord caricature who looks like an extra from the >animated Lord of the Rings)(Tom Riddle had much more style) > >On these grounds, I think Snape is great, because he's intriguing and >complex and challenging for the reader without being a caricature. I doubt >that I'd like someone like that in person, but that's irrelevant. I also >think Rita is masterly, because even though she's a thoroughly nasty piece >of work, she's a wonderful sketch of a bloodsucking, shameless tabloid >reporter (hence Skeeter, no doubt). As for Lockhart, he *is* a caricature, >but a very amusing one IMO (says the founder of LIGHT RELIEF). > >Fleur is the one character where I wish JKR *had* taken a slightly more >feminist stance (and this is unusual for me: I'm usually a stickler for >realism not implausibly idealised role modelling and tokenism). I totally >agree that Fleur's performance, for an impartially selected Triwizard >champion who is supposedly the top representative from one of Europe's >three top wizarding schools, is woeful. "Ze Grindylows, zey attacked me!" >indeed (especially when Hogwarts students learnt Grindylow defence in third >year). Given that she is the only female champion out of four and only a >supporting character, I *wish* JKR had let her come third and put in a >better performance. (Is she suggesting that Beauxbatons is too chic and >sophisticated to produce good wizards? Do they have a DADA teacher like >Lockhart??). Yes, that - but remember her comment about Peeves? She'd be able to deal with the Poltergeist, I guess. Also, there was Barty Crouch intervening. He needed Krum to put Crucio on Cedric (because he could not put HER under Imperio like Krum, and, Krum had been taught the Cruciatus Curse in Durmstrang). (Why couldn't Krum shrug off imperius, though? Durmstrang was somewhat special considering the three curses.) >One more thing - a friend of mine went to a paper on HP a while ago (never >mentioned this), in which the sneering academic said that HP was popular >because Harry was an "empty" character, with no real personality or >knowledge, into whom children could project themselves. Sacrilege! I told >my friend, wishing I'd gone to cry her down. What do people think of this >blasphemous theory? Who ever wrote that, has not read the books and knows not what he's talking about! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From neilward at dircon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 01:34:42 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:34:42 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Waiting to clip your tickets at HPFGU-Movie! Message-ID: <003901c160e3$21a21e80$be3570c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 28422 [The Ford Anglia struggles back into the tight usherette's uniform for one more try...have you ever seen a car in a pink nylon smock? It's not a pretty sight] A reminder to everyone: the day of Hallowe'en is the *last day* for posting MOVIE messages on this list. From 1st November, all posting about the forthcoming Harry Potter movie must move to our new HPFGU-Movie list and stay there until ... whenever. Heres the address again: ***** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie ***** At last count, there were simply rows and rows of empty seats. I can't believe that only a 162 of us out of 2300+ have shown up. What on *earth* am I going to do with this stack of choc ices? Okay, I'm aiming my special pointing torch at you now: ... "Come into the light, HPfGUers! Walk toward the light...!" Any comments or questions should be e-owled to MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Yours in celluloid, Flying Ford Anglia for the Magical Moderator Team From pbnesbit at msn.com Tue Oct 30 02:08:25 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:08:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) In-Reply-To: <11d.66b4f8d.290e8d86@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rl22p+84rn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28423 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Calypso8604 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/29/01 2:46:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, > lucy at l... writes: > > > > I know many Lupin fans who also likes Snape, many rabid Snape fans > > who like Sirius (Earthwalk of the I Was Right fame being one.) but I > > don't know any Sirius fan who has any remote affection for the Potion > > Master ... Put your hands up guys, I just want to know. > > > I love Lupin! I love Sirius! I love Snape! I'm strange in that way..^_^. I > can't decide which is my favorite, I like them all. Lupin, the intelligent, > misunderstood werewolf that helped Harry out, Sirius, the wrongly accused, > fun-loving father figure, Snape the bitter, brave guy who has his heart in > the right place. I love them all > > ~ Calypso > > Hi all, Just have to add my two knuts to this thread. Count me in on the 'loves them all' team. I gave up trying to decide who is my favourite & just love them in all their infinite variety for much the same reasons Calypso does. Peace & Plenty, Parker listmum for LupinLovers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LupinLovers From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Oct 30 02:18:33 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 02:18:33 -0000 Subject: Fleur (was Favorite characters) In-Reply-To: <9rkp31+43ge@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rl2lp+s3up@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28424 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > OK, OK! *backpedaling furiously* Fleur's *not* incompetent. She's > just not nice, rude, condescending, aloof, lacking in compassion, and an ungracious guest. Her positive traits are, um, she got through the tasks without being killed. Oh, and she's pretty. :-)> > But where is Fleur's big scene with Harry where she > gets to reveal her character? There really isn't one, other than > thanking him for saving her sister. > Cindy, Cindy, Cindy... It breaks my heart to disagree with you, but about Fleur, I do. I think her attitude is what she uses to protect herself. I'm not saying my heart goes out to really beautiful women, but I do think that really beautiful women (and athletes, actors, and very wealthy people) have to question why people are interested in them. In a way, Fleur has something in common with Harry - they both don't always know why people always want to be around them. If I was part Veela, I'd be aloof a good deal of the time too. I don't think it would be fun to always have men following me, babbling at me and gawking at me every where I went. I think it would be frightening, in fact (I have been followed before; it terrified me). Either way, Fleur does get her share of rejection, as Cedric was not interested in her (and Harry's interest did not return the feelings to him; yet another think Harry and Fleur share). I think that Fleur changed quite a bit after Harry saved her sister. She saw that Harry was a good kid who had no interest in Fleur in more than as a person. One of the many things I love about Harry is that he is *not* taken with Fleur. I also really liked that Fleur never cared about Harry's fame (remember when she called him a "little boy" after his name came out of the goblet?). Fleur isn't perfect, and can be downright snotty, but for the most part, she does her own thing just like everyone else. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************* From linman6868 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 03:08:09 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:08:09 EST Subject: Hogwarts Textbooks Message-ID: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28425 Hey, guys, sorry this is a week late, but I was kinda praying to the porcelain god on the night I was going to write it, and it took a while to get better. But here goes -- Lisa HOGWARTS TEXTBOOKS Every year Hogwarts students receive book lists in the post, telling them which textbooks they will require for the year. First years get the longest list, presumably because some of the books last them the whole seven-year course of their study. Here is a list of all the books on lists, mentioned in the narrative, and deduced: The Standard Book of Spells, Grades One through Seven, by Miranda Goshawk A History of Magic by Bathilda Bagshot (This one MUST be thick, I expect it looks like the Nuremberg Chronicle, only with much smaller print. I wonder how Harry managed to grab it from the cupboard so quickly!) Magical Theory by Adalbert Waffling A Beginner's Guide to Transfiguration (and successive levels) by Emeric Switch One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi by Phyllida Spore Magical Drafts (I bet this is DRAUGHTS in the U.K.) and Potions by Arsenius Jigger Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them by Newt Scamander (I own this one!) The Dark Forces: A Guide to Self-Protection by Quentin Trimble (If Mad-Eye Moody had written this book, it'd probably be reaallly thin and only consist of two words!) The Monster Book of Monsters (author unknown) Unfogging the Future by Cassandra Vablatsky Numerology and Gramatica (author unknown) Home Life and Social Habits of British Muggles (author unknown) All those darn Lockhart books: Break with a Banshee, Gadding with Ghouls, Holidays with Hags, Travels with Trolls (wouldn't want to be in a small car with one of those; how DID Lockhart do it?? Drive with the windows down?), Voyages with Vampires, Wanderings with Werewolves, Year with the Yeti And of course we must include Hogwarts, A History, even though it's on no one's booklist (aka A REVISED History of Hogwarts, or A Highly Biased and SELECTIVE History of Hogwarts, Which Glosses Over the Nastier Aspects of the School) [personal note: I have a funny story about the word "biased" which I will post to OTChatter after I finish with this] USES OF BOOKS Clearly, several of these books are used in more than one class. The obvious relation between Potions and Herbology suggests that One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi will be used in both classes, as does Harry's thought of the book under Snape's questions in PS/SS. Magical Theory would likely serve all classes, even Trelawney's, though I haven't seen her using it. The Standard Book of Spells I assume is a Charms book, but I can see it being used in other classes as well. (I can't imagine what kind of shelf you'd build to hold all seven; those books probably give a lot of torque.) Teachers, depending on their predilections, seem to use the books as reference books in classes that are mostly labs - with History of Magic being the least lab-like. Students are expected to read their textbooks over the summer break, and before they come to school; second years and up are given essay assignments to finish over the summer months. Unlike the students I've taught, Hogwarts students don't appear to have bibliotecaphobia; they head to the library to find supporting materials on their own steam, and they are successful. Hermione may be the biggest library rat of Harry's year, but she's not alone in her initiative; none of them balk for lack of knowing where to start; they just go there and start searching. They certainly turn up more than my students do on the average. As Fantastic Beasts shows, students write in their books - and since they own them, why not? They use them for pillows (like Hermione in PoA); they use them as threats (I certainly would; it would give "throw the book at him" a whole new meaning.) They mend them (Ginny, GoF) or let them fall apart (Ron, FB); they lug them about (how DOES Hermione do that? but then, I did it in high school); they probably eat while using them and brush the crumbs out of the gutters; they load their trunks with them; and now and then they even consult them. Probably they keep them all their life, like Muggle English majors do - or nursing students. Questions: 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or are they different? 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? Obviously, Lockhart was able to demand that his students buy all his books, but surely other professors, such as Snape and Sprout, would have to coordinate their choices? Does Dumbledore have a say in it? 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. Are there fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a textbook? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From john at walton.vu Tue Oct 30 03:17:38 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 03:17:38 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28426 linman6868 at aol.com wrote: > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and > what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) How To Hex Friends And Petrify People, by Vilius Dastardo > 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter > units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or > are they different? No! Yech. I rather think of them as proper academic type books, like university students have. Very old fashioned, very Hogwarts. It's up to the teachers to set the questions, etc. Bear in mind that the young witches and wizards are writing pages of essays very early on in their school careers. This may seem anathema to those unused to the UK system of essays (I'm thinking US here, because when I was in 6th grade it was ALL multiple guess...I mean multiple choice :D). > 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? Obviously, > Lockhart was able to demand that his students buy all his books, but surely > other professors, such as Snape and Sprout, would have to coordinate their > choices? Does Dumbledore have a say in it? I'm not sure there's that much coordination needed simply because there probably aren't that many books produced for the age levels concerned. Sure, there are tons of books in the library, but consider that the wizarding world goes back at least 2500 years (Ollivander's was established BCE), plus the fact that most of the library books are "further reading". > 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. Are there > fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a textbook? I would assume that the very basic beginners books don't need much background as they don't go into much background themselves :) Great summary, Lisa -- I certainly enjoyed it! --John ____________________________________________ "To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." --Albus Dumbledore John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From bricken at tenbit.pl Tue Oct 30 03:33:02 2001 From: bricken at tenbit.pl (Ev vy) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 04:33:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Textbooks References: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> Message-ID: <023801c160f3$94f6b480$df08f1d5@OSLII> No: HPFGUIDX 28427 From: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:08 AM > Questions: > > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and > what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) This is hard, so I will use something I devised for my fic. My pen name would be Ivy Mann-Draik, and probably I'd write on the use of various ingredients in potion making and my correspondence with Professor Snape would be profuse. On the other hand I'm quite interested in Dark Creatures and I would really like to write something like "Liber Monstra" and destroy all the stereotypes about werewolves with help of Professor Remus J. Lupin. *wiknks* > 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter > units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or > are they different? I was wondering once if they were printed or hand-written and if they were on paper or parchment. Definitely handwritten on parchment would be too expensive for the majority of wizards (I bet Draco would have such text-books if they were available), but they would just fit into the wizarding world. However, I should think that they are really enormous volumes, written with academic purposes rather than usual school-books. > 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? Obviously, > Lockhart was able to demand that his students buy all his books, but surely > other professors, such as Snape and Sprout, would have to coordinate their > choices? Does Dumbledore have a say in it? I'd say that the set of the books has been the same for years. Well, at least those books which don't need to be amended remain as text-books. And I would opt that it's the Ministry for Magic that is responsible for choosing text-books. It's not said (I think) that Hogwarts is the only school in UK, so if there are more, they should be having similar curricula. They made an exception for Lockhart because he's so famous, there was no doubt in his abilities so his books were considered to be a proper source of knowledge. > 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. Are there > fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a textbook? Books dealing with basics wouldn't need to be written by someone having much experience. Like with basics of spells or transfiguration. I bet that Hermione would be able to write a book for the first-year level about spells or transfiguration. Ev vy Slytherin by Sorting ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There's nothing level in our cursed natures But direct villainy. William Shakespeare "Timon of Athens" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From claire_iceprincess at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 04:20:17 2001 From: claire_iceprincess at yahoo.com (Claire Geiger) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:20:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) In-Reply-To: <11d.66b4f8d.290e8d86@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011030042017.56797.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28428 --- Calypso8604 at aol.com wrote: > I love Lupin! I love Sirius! I love Snape! I'm > strange in that way..^_^. I > can't decide which is my favorite, I like them all. > Lupin, the intelligent, > misunderstood werewolf that helped Harry out, > Sirius, the wrongly accused, > fun-loving father figure, Snape the bitter, brave > guy who has his heart in > the right place. I love them all > > ~ Calypso Oh, definately! Cheers for liking them all. I do, too. Snape and Sirius are actually more alike than they'd care to admit, though. Think about it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 04:38:07 2001 From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 04:38:07 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle and orphanage Message-ID: <9rlarf+a3r7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28429 Something that's been bothering me for a while, and I don't think it's been discussed, at least not in the past six months (I tried to check the posts). Why is Tom Riddle put in a muggle orphanage? I know his father didn't want him, or may not have known about him. He could have walked out before Tom's mom even knew she was pregnant. His mother didn't have any living relatives apparantly. However, you would think the wizard world would make some provision for orphans, a good friend of the family, foster care or something. Every child who is born a wizard is recorded and a letter is automatically sent when it's time to go to Hogwart's, so it's not as if nobody knew he existed. Some spell must have been worked so the head of the orphanage would think nothing of sending him off to school and seeing him come back every summer. I don't think that's usual proceedure for an orphanage to send a child off to boarding school, they'd be educated locally. It's also strange that once he's in Hogwarts and is so talented, head boy, etc., that he doesn't make friends who would take him in over the holidays and summer. In COS he asks the headmaster if he can stay that summer, and can't because of the basilisk. Even when he frames Hagrid, and the troubles end, there's no evidence that he get to stay. That's another question, I guess, maybe with all his talent and popularity with the teachers (except Dumbledore), maybe he wasn't as liked by the students? Donna From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 04:50:24 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:50:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011030045024.34463.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28430 Okay here are my answers. Danette linman6868 at aol.com wrote: Questions: 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) Historical Happenings and Events by Diggen Bones Mathemagics by Lotta Numbers 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or are they different? Considering that they allowed Lockhart's books I would say that they are different more like very large reference books that are drier than the Sahara, mainly because you don't ever hear any of the teachers assigning End of Chapter Questions homework or hear of any of the students having to do an End of Chapter essay. 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? Obviously, Lockhart was able to demand that his students buy all his books, but surely other professors, such as Snape and Sprout, would have to coordinate their choices? Does Dumbledore have a say in it? Usually the textbooks are choosen (at least in my experience) by the School Board there fore what I think happens is the teachers put in thier choices for books for thier class and the School Board gets together and says "Okay this book is good but I think that we should use this book instead of that one for this class." 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. Are there fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a textbook? There must be or Lockhart would have never been a bestseller :-P Actually I have to agree with some of the people who have posted before me. I can very easily see the lower level and primers being written by someone with no experience in the field at all. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Tue Oct 30 05:14:41 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:14:41 -0000 Subject: Dursleys - "empty" Harry - Fleur - Textbooks - Tom Riddle Message-ID: <9rld01+kqtb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28431 Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > Why Live With The Dursleys > Frankly this has been puzzling me ever from the first book on. > *Why* does Harry keep going back to those horrible people? (snip) > By PoA Harry has learned of at least two alternatives to the > Dursleys. He could stay with the Weasleys who like him and might > even be persuaded to accept a little something for room and board > *or* he could spend his summers at the Leaky Cauldron, (he's got > the money). I think Harry stays with the Dursleys because Dumbledore has so ordered. IIRC there is something at the end of GoF about the Weasleys wanted to take him home for the summer but Dumbledore forbade them to do so. Arthur and Molly wouldn't disobey Dumbledore, even if Harry would. Tabouli wrote: > the sneering academic said that HP was popular because Harry was > an "empty" character, with no real personality or knowledge, into > whom children could project themselves. If Harry's so "empty", why is so IMPOSSIBLE for me to project myself into him? He's a Gryffindor and I'm a coward. He's sports-mad and I was surprised to hear that the World Series was going on. I'm book-mad and he isn't. And on, and on... Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > If I was part Veela, I'd be aloof a good deal of the time too. I think Veela magic can be turned on and off at will -- the full Veelas at the World Cup turned it on for their dance routine and turned it full on when they "focussed like a laser beam" on the referee. Lisa Inman wrote: > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be > called, and what would your pen name be? (You can write several; > check, Lockhart did.) There's one in my fanfic called Bound, Gagged, Chained, and Caged: A Compendium of Confinement, by Thai?s Nott and Lockhart Chaney > 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? I think that in most cases there is no choosing process, as "everyone knows" what the classics in the field are. Dumbledore's preface to FANTASTIC BEASTS says: "No wizarding household is complete without a copy of FANTASTIC BEASTS". Of course, the preceding sentence says: "FANTASTIC BEASTS has been an approved textbook at Hogwarts School ever since its [first] publication" (52 editions ago!), which implies that there is some kind of approving process. John Walton wrote: > How To Hex Friends And Petrify People, by Vilius Dastardo LOL, but I still delight in your invention of TIME FOR EVERY PURPOSE (by Byrd Seegerpete, was it?) Donna bookraptor wrote: > maybe with all his talent and popularity with the teachers (except > Dumbledore), maybe he wasn't as liked by the students? >From CoS: the letters of his name rearranged themselves: I AM LORD VOLDEMORT "You see?" he whispered. "It was a name I was already using at Hogwarts, to my most intimate friends only, of course." He had "most intimate friends" at Hogwarts. I assume that at least one of them was a Malfoy. Draco says it wasn't Lucius: (paraphrase) "It was fifty years ago, of course it was before his time." Except for that, wizarding lifespans being what they are, there's no reason why Lucius Malfoy couldn't have been Tom Riddle's classmate, 66 years old in CoS. > 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. > Are there fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a > textbook? History of Magic: I doubt Bathilda Bagshot lived through it all by Elixir of Life, or even visited it all with a superduper Time Turner. Magical Theory: the author wouldn't be named Waffling if he knew what he was talking about. From tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 05:38:28 2001 From: tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com (tenpinkpiggies at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:38:28 -0000 Subject: Why Live With The Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20011030000724.58701.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rleck+bsjv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28432 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote: > Frankly this has been puzzling me ever from the > first book on. *Why* does Harry keep going back to > those horrible people? (yes I know he's protected > while in their care but *he* doesn't know that so why > doesn't he take action to escape?). Aside from the obvious fact that the Dursleys are great characters and perform an important role in the book by functioning as foils to the wizarding world (ie. muggles) and all the metaphoric resonances towards attitudes of snobbery and intolerance that that role entails, there are the facts that Harry cannot do magic outside Hogwarts until he is of age, he has no muggle money, and he is loath to spend is knuts and sickles as he doesn't really know how long they must last. Remember how disciplined he was when he REALLY wanted that firebolt? Cheers, -Cornflower "Queen of the run on sentence" O'Shea ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" - Albus Dumbledore ~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~* > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Oct 30 08:28:34 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <9rkilh+5bfl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011030082834.36479.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28433 Now that's interesting, Jenny! Why is Hagrid among your least favourites? Because he's unstable? Immature? A potential threat? I'd really like to know more about it. My hit list is: Least favourites: Crouch sr., Krum, Crabbe&Goyle (who may be counted as one, right?) Favourites: Moody (that is, if he really is like in GoF, more or less), Snape, Lupin Susanna/pigwidgeon37 (who'd like to invite all three of them to dinner and cook a wonderful Italian meal for them) ;) jenny from ravenclaw wrote: My list should be no surprise to anyone who has ever read anything I've ever posted, but what can I say? I am redundantly repetitive. Least Favorites: 1. LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART LOCKHART 2. Trelawney 3. Hagrid Favorites: 1. Harry 2. Harry 3. Harry 4. Dumbledore --jenny from ravenclaw, who can't believe no one else loves Harry as much as she does - or even a little ****************************************************************** Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ ***Special Announcement from Hexquarters*** After Hallowe'en, please post ALL shapes and forms of discussion of the Harry Potter movie to our new list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie. Join up! Join up! - the projector's rolling... Before posting to any of our lists, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Nokia Game is on again. Click here to join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Oct 30 09:54:37 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:54:37 -0000 Subject: "empty Harry" In-Reply-To: <002a01c160de$4eaab0e0$9e856fcb@price> Message-ID: <9rltct+p0u1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28434 Tabouli wrote: > One more thing - a friend of mine went to a paper on HP a while ago (never mentioned this), in which the sneering academic said that HP was popular because Harry was an "empty" character, with no real personality or knowledge, into whom children could project themselves. Sacrilege! I told my friend, wishing I'd gone to cry her down. What do people think of this blasphemous theory? > I think it's true that we often get a very limited view of Harry's opinions, and that allows us to fill his mind with our own. For example, we get surprisingly little of Harry's position on Hermione's telling McGonagall about the Firebolt - we get much more of Ron's. So the reader who is cross with Hermione, and the reader who feels that, however clumsily, she has done the right thing (In her place I would have let it slip apparently by accident in front of McG, and feigned complete surprise at McG's 'overreaction', and then said that perhaps it's for the best after all. But then I'm manipulative.) can both put their own view into Harry's head. It's also true that he has very little knowledge of the Wizarding World, and so all Muggle readers can identify with him. Persumably wizard readers get really exasperated. His famous lack of curiosity helps keep empty spaces for the reader to fill, too. However, he does have personality, as we will all recognises as soon as we see Daniel Radcliffe make a minor slip in characterisation. David, suspecting that Tabouli isn't telling all she thinks on this one From Calypso8604 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 09:59:21 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 04:59:21 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Textbooks Message-ID: <38.1e1a50f5.290fd3f9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28435 In a message dated 10/29/01 10:10:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, linman6868 at aol.com writes: > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and > what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) My Pen Name would be Calypso, of course! I just love that name! Oh, it's too early to think of a clever title (almost 5 a.m., *why* did I have to wake this early?) but my book would most definitely be about Magical Creatures. > 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with > chapter > units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or > are they different? I believe Hogwarts students are tested by more hands-on type activities as it *is* magic they learning which is more than just basic knowledge like in our world. When they *do* have to write things out it's usually an essay of sorts. Hogwarts is definitely a lot more work than Muggle schools! > 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? Obviously, > Lockhart was able to demand that his students buy all his books, but surely > other professors, such as Snape and Sprout, would have to coordinate their > choices? Does Dumbledore have a say in it? I think Dumbledore probably just lets his staff choose whatever materials they feel are necessary to the supplies list. He gives the staff a lot of freedom > 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. Are there > fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a textbook? I don't think any History textbooks require experience exactly but certainly a lot of research! ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calypso8604 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 10:08:03 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:08:03 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) Message-ID: <16f.31895f6.290fd603@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28436 In a message dated 10/29/01 11:21:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, claire_iceprincess at yahoo.com writes: > Snape and Sirius are actually more alike than they'd > care to admit, though. I have always thought that too! Both misunderstood, both bitter about grudges....Oh, and when I read the description for Sirius the first time I thought he looked a little like Snape! (NOTE: I said a *little*) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Oct 30 10:11:22 2001 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:11:22 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rluca+8klf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28437 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > Hey, guys, sorry this is a week late, but I was kinda praying to the > porcelain god on the night I was going to write it, and it took a while to > get better. Hope you are feeling all right, Lisa. In atheistic Britain we say talking on the big white telephone. Nice summary > > Questions: > > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and > what would your pen name be? Magical Experimental Philosophy, by Selwyn Dingleberry. Also, I couldn't do this, but there is clearly a need for the definitive guide to Quodpot. > 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter > units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or > are they different? I agree totally with John on this, except to say that they have lots of humour in them too. Look at the Lethifold footnote in FB. Think about Wendelin the Weird. > > 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? Obviously, > Lockhart was able to demand that his students buy all his books, but surely > other professors, such as Snape and Sprout, would have to coordinate their > choices? Does Dumbledore have a say in it? The MOM wouldn't get a look-in. Teachers might coordinate but I'm sure they are all allowed to insist on books if they want them. I am looking forward to seeing Dumbledore take lessons (Magical Theology or Advanced Study of Magical Books) in the last two books. > > 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. Are there > fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a textbook? Well, Lockhart did it. But I imagine the practical attitude to detentions and all the lessons extends to authorship too. David From Calypso8604 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 10:18:45 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:18:45 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle and orphanage Message-ID: <12a.683cdf5.290fd885@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28438 Well, he *did* have friends, they were the ones that called him Lord Voldemort as a nickname at school. I suppose JKR wants it to seem as if Slytherins don't care, its every man for himself....I really don't know actually, I'm trying to figure out why his friends wouldn't take him in myself. The orphanage pat always bothered me too. But I think that after Tom's mother died he was turned in to his father who in turn dropped him off at an orphanage. Another thing, if Tom could have possibly stayed at Hogwarts why can't Harry now that the basilisk is dead? Hogwarts *is* one of the safest places... ~ Calypso In a message dated 10/29/01 11:39:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, bookraptor11 at yahoo.com writes: > Something that's been bothering me for a while, and I don't think > it's been discussed, at least not in the past six months (I tried to > check the posts). > > Why is Tom Riddle put in a muggle orphanage? I know his father > didn't want him, or may not have known about him. He could have > walked out before Tom's mom even knew she was pregnant. His mother > didn't have any living relatives apparantly. However, you would > think the wizard world would make some provision for orphans, a good > friend of the family, foster care or something. > > Every child who is born a wizard is recorded and a letter is > automatically sent when it's time to go to Hogwart's, so it's not as > if nobody knew he existed. Some spell must have been worked > so the head of the orphanage would think nothing of sending him off > to school and seeing him come back every summer. I don't think > that's usual proceedure for an orphanage to send a child off to > boarding school, they'd be educated locally. > > It's also strange that once he's in Hogwarts and is so talented, head > boy, etc., that he doesn't make friends who would take him in over > the holidays and summer. In COS he asks the headmaster if he can stay > that summer, and can't because of the basilisk. Even when he frames > Hagrid, and the troubles end, there's no evidence that he get to stay. > That's another question, I guess, maybe with all his talent and > popularity with the teachers (except Dumbledore), maybe he wasn't as > liked by the students? > > Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 30 10:50:22 2001 From: jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk (Janie) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:50:22 -0000 Subject: "empty Harry" In-Reply-To: <9rltct+p0u1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rm0le+ushk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28439 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "David" wrote: > Tabouli wrote: > > > One more thing - a friend of mine went to a paper on HP a while ago > (never mentioned this), in which the sneering academic said that HP > was popular because Harry was an "empty" character, with no real > personality or knowledge, into whom children could project > themselves. Sacrilege! I told my friend, wishing I'd gone to cry > her down. What do people think of this blasphemous theory? > > > > I think it's true that we often get a very limited view of Harry's > opinions, and that allows us to fill his mind with our own. For > example, we get surprisingly little of Harry's position on Hermione's > telling McGonagall about the Firebolt - we get much more of Ron's. So > the reader who is cross with Hermione, and the reader who feels that, > however clumsily, she has done the right thing can both > put their own view into Harry's head. > > It's also true that he has very little knowledge of the Wizarding > World, and so all Muggle readers can identify with him. Persumably > wizard readers get really exasperated. > > > However, he does have personality, as we will all recognises as soon > as we see Daniel Radcliffe make a minor slip in characterisation. > Well, i don't know what to think really. Harry has his own personality but it isn't portrayed as well as ron's or Hermione's. we see them through Harry's eyes, and so in some respects we only get Harry's opinion of them (Draco for example has a totally different view of them!) IMO Harry has been left as a kind of 'empty' personality so that we can identify with him, and put ourselves in his place, fighting the Dark Lord and everything else. Has anyone else noticed that the same effect seems to happen with Voldemort, that if you try you can put yourself in voldemort's place, even though the books are written seemingly from Harry's point of view? janie, who thinks there's more than meets the eye to this topic! From jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 30 10:57:22 2001 From: jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk (Janie) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:57:22 -0000 Subject: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <20011030082834.36479.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rm12i+44f6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28440 My least favourite characters have to be: 1. Trelawney (just because she is sooooooooo annoying, telling harry every time he is going to die, how predictable!!!) 2. Tom Riddle (not voldemort, just the Tom Riddle character. He just seems to be a little copy of Malfoy, only less well portrayed. i don't think we get to know enough about him) 3. Amos Diggory (at the beginning of GOF anyway, he doesn't seem to be very nice really does he?) My ABSOLUTE favourite characters are: 1. Gred and Forge (Fred and George in case you hadn't guessed. They're the best, i will be very sad when the leave Hogwarts and don't feature so much in the books. I think they're there to provide some light relief) 2. I'll get into trouble if I don't say harry here won't I?! 3. Dumbledore, of course has to be in here somewhere (but the gleam still worries me) Janie x From Calypso8604 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 11:06:51 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 06:06:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. Message-ID: <8c.eb31cf8.290fe3cb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28441 In a message dated 10/30/01 6:01:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, jane_1w at yahoo.co.uk writes: > Dumbledore, of course has to be in here somewhere (but the gleam > still worries me) > :-D...I have a theory about that. I think that Dumbledore realizes that in Voldemort taking Harry's blood he has made himself a bit more susceptible to death. Therefore he *can* be killed, contradictory to his belief that he has overcome death. Dumbledore realized this but didn't tell Harry because Harry would do something stupid like go after Voldemort right away without thinking ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 22:53:39 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:53:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <004101c160c9$fd7ff900$df08f1d5@OSLII> Message-ID: <20011029225339.60608.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28442 Favorites: 1. Snape (I love this guy my friends and I are dressing up as the faculty from HP and I get to be the potions master!!!! Its good to be bad) 2. Hermione (My best friend continually reminds me of her.) 3. Hagrid ('e's just a big ol' teddy bear) Least Favorites: 1. Percy (what an annoying character) 2. Barty Crouch Jr. (I am bad due to the fact that JKR made one of my favorite characters evil :( ) 3. Cho (She broke Harry's heart and I know what thats like... I can understand her for that but I don't have to agree/like her for it) Scott __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 30 12:08:37 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:08:37 -0000 Subject: Why Live With The Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20011030000724.58701.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rm585+98pl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28443 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote> > Yet still he goes dutifully back to Privet drive > every summer, why? I think he has too. Dumbledore wouldn't let him go stay with the Weasley's at the end of GoF. Plus they haven't really got the room for one more kid, or the money. Sofie From Calypso8604 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 12:16:51 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:16:51 -0000 Subject: Three favourite and three favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <9rkp31+43ge@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rm5nj+e8cc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28444 Quite the opposite, I believe that Fleur is another "not what they first seem to be" character. Much like Snape or Sirius, Fleur is a character who seems to be someone to dislike at first but later it is revealed she is not what she seems. She shows humanity in the one thing she would miss more than anything else is her younger sister and she later talks to Harry and Ron and acts friendly. I think she will be back in future books and her character will be built upon more. ~ Calypso > For better or worse, JKR makes Fleur a character not to like, and she > does this on purpose (as opposed to having it be a failed > characterization or something). In a way, Fleur gets cheated a bit, > doesn't she? Cedric and Harry have lots of interaction (and Cedric > gets to reveal his outstanding character). Harry interacts with Krum > in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" (and Krum gets to reveal his > insecurities). But where is Fleur's big scene with Harry where she > gets to reveal her character? There really isn't one, other than > thanking him for saving her sister. So of the characters on my Least > Favorite list, maybe Fleur is the one who could have escaped with > some additional development. We'll see if she gets it. > > Cindy From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 30 12:29:01 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:29:01 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle and orphanage In-Reply-To: <12a.683cdf5.290fd885@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rm6ed+lne1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28445 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Calypso8604 at a... wrote: > Another thing, if Tom could have possibly stayed at Hogwarts why > can't Harry now that the basilisk is dead? Hogwarts *is* one of the > safest places... That's something I've been wondering too actually...why can't Harry stay at Hogwarts over the summer? If Tom asked to do it then you can see that it is a possibility. Why does Dumbledore continue to send Harry back to a family that don't love him? It can't be about safety because otherwise it would be safe for him to be there during term time. Hmmmm... anyone any ideas? Secondly, where do the teachers live? Do they live in Hogwarts all year round? Or in Hogsmeade? Or do they have quarters during term time and then go elsewhere during the long holidays? Maybe some of them even have families living in different parts of the country. Can you imagine it...Professor Trelawney married? I pity her husband if she is! You couldn't make her a cup of tea without having your death predicted! ~Sofie~ From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 30 14:00:58 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:00:58 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rmbqq+g3fe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28446 Great Summary! Thanks, Lisa. > Questions: > > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and > what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) The students don't seem to have a textbook to teach them about political science in the wizarding world. Maybe something like "The Structure and Influence of MoM: When Justice is Jinxed," by Reed A. Poll. We also haven't seen a medical textbook. So perhaps "A Guide to Curing the Wizard or Witch," by Alotta Nerve. > > 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter > units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or > are they different? > I think Hogwarts textbooks should be more magical. The Monster Book of Monsters and Invisible Book of Invisibility are very clever. Wouldn't it be nice if Hogwarts textbooks didn't have a fixed structure and table of contents, though? Instead, the text should shift around, so that whatever you are looking for appears magically at the front. Cindy From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Tue Oct 30 14:31:29 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:31:29 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rmdk1+9566@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28447 linman6868 at a... wrote: > HOGWARTS TEXTBOOKS > 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or are they different? I do hope so. Maybe some parts of some books cant be read before the wizard reader has completed appropriate preliminary work and input the attempt at an answer into the book using a special charm... > > 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? I really hope this doesnt get to much like 'The Brits Are Different' again but I think here we need to remember some cultural assumptions. Until very recently there was no ironclad national curriculum in Briish Schools. Each teacher was given a set of objectives for each class for a year covering a general curriculum leading to a recognised examination board, and then selected the materials appropriate for that class to achieve those targets. So there was in theory professional discretion for individual teachers to chose books for a class each year. Now in the real world school budgets get in the way of letting this freedom run wild.. and teachers would use what was available... but for British readers having teachers select the years books for a class will have a slightly familiar if now old- fashioned ring. Edis Bevan From margdean at erols.com Tue Oct 30 15:12:01 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:12:01 -0500 Subject: Fleur / Veelas References: <9rld01+kqtb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BDEC341.B57DBBE6@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28448 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > > > If I was part Veela, I'd be aloof a good deal of the time too. > > I think Veela magic can be turned on and off at will -- the full > Veelas at the World Cup turned it on for their dance routine and > turned it full on when they "focussed like a laser beam" on the > referee. Possibly full Veelas can turn their magical attraction on and off at will, but someone who's only part Veela, like Fleur, doesn't have that amount of control. OTOH, it might be interesting to see what happens if anyone ever got Fleur =really, really= angry. Does anyone remember what an =angry= Veela is like? >:) --Margaret Dean From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 14:55:18 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:55:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's and Black's grudges (was: Living with Sirius) In-Reply-To: <9rhpgd+3j7e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rmf0m+5uls@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28449 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: In "Snape's Grudge", Harry does not have the cloak in his > pocket when he is taken to Snape's office. I can't think of a prior > instance in the HP series in which Snape sees Harry with the cloak. > But for some reason, when Snape reveals himself in the Shrieking > Shack, he clearly knows the cloak is Harry's. Mini-FLINT? > I don' think so. Afterall, after the Hogsmeade incident, it must have crossed his mind that Harry had an invisibility cloak - it would have been strange if he had not thought so. As to him wondering why Harry didn't have it with him - well, he'd had plenty of time to leave it somewhere, and Snape probably realised that Harry wouldn't be stupid enough to leave something so incriminating on his person (although he was stupid enough to keep his jokeshop purchases with him. It is also entirely possible that Snape knew that James had such a cloak - or could finally explain strange incidents from his own schooldays which occurred because of James' use of the cloak. So, by the time he sees the cloak in the Whomping Willow, it must have seemed obvious that it was Harry's. Catherine From karen.sellwood at pearsoned-ema.com Tue Oct 30 15:25:17 2001 From: karen.sellwood at pearsoned-ema.com (karen.sellwood at pearsoned-ema.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:25:17 -0000 Subject: Dursleys getting back to the land Message-ID: <9rmgot+dk8o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28450 Hello, I'm new to this site. I know that this question has come up in the past (it's in the FAQ - Mysteries section that I came across whilst surfing), however, I was wondering if it had ever been solved. I have searched for posts relating to this question, but to no avail... How did the Dursley's get back to land after Hagrid and Harry took the boat in Philosopher's Stone? Did they swim? Shout for help??? Any suggestions welcomed. And apologies for going over old ground : ) From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de Tue Oct 30 15:35:22 2001 From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:35:22 -0000 Subject: Snape and DADA position - misinformation In-Reply-To: <9rku65+b84n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rmhbq+9cj7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28451 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I wondered about that too - if it wasn't part of Snape's "cover" > somehow. Maybe it is so Snape can have a plausable grievance against > Dumbledore if he ever has to prove his bona fides to Voldemort. "Why > would I want to help Dumbledore? He's deliberately kept me from the > DADA position for years! He's always been suspicious of me, you > know..." That sort of thing. > Hm. Wanda, I cannot imagine a simpe: "He did not allow me to be DADA techer." I don?t think the position is this desirable. BUT you got me thinking and there might be *some* truht in it. It might be something like "After all this time, after all theses years that I tried to redeem myself - he *still* does not trust me. These people do not deserve my loyalty." I could see something like that. What do you think? Ethanol From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 15:46:01 2001 From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:46:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Living With Sirius/S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R. In-Reply-To: <9rf2v5+nelj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011030154601.22817.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28452 To Cindy and others who do like like Siris... here are my thoughs (sorry so late returning to this, but life is always busy for me) I like your ideas. He is one of my fave characters. I do believe, condisering he spent so long in Azkaban he probably isn't completely together mentally, since we did see how Hagrid was after he got out. Azkaban does weird things to people. Also, when Siris was 16 he was pulling the same type of prants most of us dealt with at that age, and to be honest I was on the other end of the prants (rumors, etc) and I have forgiven the people who have hurt me, so in my opinion, unless JKR is trying to paint Snape in one light and we learn later his true view, which is very possible condisering who the author is, Snape should let the past go and should not dislike Harry because something his father did. However, if it comes out that Snape was in love with Lily, his hate could be still possible, but his love for Lily should not become hate for Harry. I hope we learn more about Siris and we learn that he is the good guy we (well most of us) want him to be! I am putting my name in to join S.I.N.S.T.E.R. Laura, proud memeber of S.I.N.S.T.E.R. :) > > *heavy sigh* I think I am in desperate need of a > new support group > to advocate that Sirius is not seriously bent and a > danger to himself > and others, but is simply misunderstood and doesn't > always think > things out before acting. Perhaps S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R. > (Sirius Is not > Nutters; Instead, Sirius Tried to do Everything > Right). > > Cindy > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 15:50:58 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:50:58 -0500 Subject: Gryffindors - MWPP ages - SWMNBN - HP live with SB - Lee - IDO Fleur Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28453 Ev vy wrote: >1. OK, Sirius was a prisoner, etc. but he's still a Gryffindor (sorry for a >cliche) so he might >be hot-headed and acting before thinking but his hatred towards Snape is >somewhat out of place. The defining characteristic of Gryffindor is courage. We may all be fans of Gryffindor because we all love Harry, Neville, Dumbledore, etc. so much, but the awful truth is that Gryffindors are not necessarily nice. Sofie wrote: >I worked out (through a long and complicated process)that Sirius, >remus and Snape will be 35 in book five. Ooh, goody, math. Will you post sharing your reasoning? This is just about what JKR said (in an interview this year she said that Snape is "35 or 36"--meaning in GF?). However, before that interview, speculation was rampant, and many of us thought James and Lily were older than the 20-21 that made them at Harry's birth. David whispered: >Whisper it who dares, but could she have >subliminally got some of her words from Nancy Stouffer after all? >Not that that gives NS a case but our minds are deceptive. Anything is possible, and memory is tricky, but let's remember that She Who Must Not Be Named's "books" were activity/coloring books mostly sold in a few stores close to her home. They were not the kind of thing JKR (or anyone else for that matter) is likely to have picked up in an Edinburgh book shop and thumbed through and forgotten. Well, the forgetting part is likely, if one can get those little buttocks-faced guys out of one's nightmares (meow, but it's true!). Amber wrote: >I have problems with Harry agreeing so > readily to live with someone he doesn't know at all. > Cindy wrote: >OK. Let me try this, then. We've seen one significant situation in >which Harry is willing to trust and face the unknown to get away from >the Dursleys. In PS/SS, he leaves the Dursleys and goes with Hagrid, >someone he has only just met, someone his uncle was prepared to >shoot. No Professor Lupin is around to vouch for Hagrid either. >Harry knows nothing at all of the magical world, and before you know >it, he's leaving the only home he has ever had and is in a row boat >with a giant carrying a pink umbrella. JKR even addresses this, though she doesn't explain it: "even though everything Hagrid had told him so far was unbelievable, Harry couldn't help trusting him" (PS/SS 5). I think it's believable because Hagrid IS entirely trustworthy. His honesty and affection toward Harry just pour off him, two things Harry is not accustomed to receive from adults. Harry has always dreamed of a relative who will come and take him away--how many people get to act on these escape fantasies? For most of us, home means the safe and the known. Harry relishes the unknown, and as for safe, Four Privet Drive ain't it. In the case of Sirius, add the compelling connection to his parents. This is the closest he is ever going to come to living with his true family. >5. For most sports events you have the announcers' booth with > microphones and such, but we know they wouldn't work at Hogwarts. > What does Lee Jordan use to commentate? A magical megaphone. It gets mentioned somewhere (in PA?)--McGonagall tries to wrest it away from him. Don't take away my LOON membership for failure to dig up the exact reference--I have to go to work! Cindy slandered : >2. Fleur (if female characters are going to be beautiful but not so >nice, they had better be more competent at magic than Fleur) I am about ready to start a Fleur Defense League, and I don't even *like* her. Why, tell me, why does everyone think she is so bad at magic? She is school champion. She *ought* to have come in second in the first task, IMHO--maybe the judges are sexist . Seriously, we don't know about times, but we do know she was the only one who wasn't injured, and Viktor got eggs trampled. If it weren't for Karkaroff's screwy scoring she'd have beaten him for sure. In the second task, she's defeated by grindylows--so? She's probably never learned about them (they are found only in Britain and Ireland, and that I *can* document--it's in FB). In the third task she's sabotaged by a powerful wizard. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- "Are you, er, much of a religious man yourself?" said Rincewind as clouds whipped by the window. "I believe all religions do reflect some aspect of an eternal truth, yes," said Carrot. "Good wheeze," said Rincewind. "You might just get away with it." -Terry Pratchett, The Last Hero --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From zenonah at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 15:57:33 2001 From: zenonah at yahoo.com (Jenny T. Malmiola) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:57:33 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rmild+l5jr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28454 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > Hey, guys, sorry this is a week late, but I was kinda praying to the > porcelain god on the night I was going to write it, and it took a while to > get better. But here goes -- Lisa In Finland we drive porcelain Mercedes... =) But good thing you're okay now. > > HOGWARTS TEXTBOOKS > > Questions: > > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and > what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) I'll wait and see how popular my first one gets before starting next one. I grew up in a zoo, just ordinary cats, dogs, budgies, rats, foxes, forestbirds, one lynx... So my book will be 'Psychomagical Pet; How To Keep Your Trusted Friend Mentally Balanced' by Zenonah Shrinkenhof. > > 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter > units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or > are they different? I see covers in my mind very oldfashioned while inside can be very mugglish. I don't think they have different books for teachers or comprehension questions, but imagine how great all the pictures must be! In older books there's propably just few drawings - do you think drawings move also? - but in new books they can put a picture of something that's dangerous or lives far away. DIY-guides can really show you every step... > > 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? Obviously, > Lockhart was able to demand that his students buy all his books, but surely > other professors, such as Snape and Sprout, would have to coordinate their > choices? Does Dumbledore have a say in it? I have always thought teachers can decide for themselves, with Dumbledore's approval of course. > > 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. Are there > fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a textbook? > Like someone already said; history of magic is quite obvious. Jenny M. From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 30 16:23:17 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:23:17 -0000 Subject: In Defense of Fleur? (WAS Gryffindors - MWPP ages - SWMNBN - HP ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rmk5l+rikt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28455 Hi, Amy! Amy wrote: > > I am about ready to start a Fleur Defense League, and I don't even *like* > her. Why, tell me, why does everyone think she is so bad at magic? She is > school champion. She *ought* to have come in second in the first task, > IMHO--maybe the judges are sexist . Seriously, we don't know about > times, but we do know she was the only one who wasn't injured, and Viktor > got eggs trampled. If it weren't for Karkaroff's screwy scoring she'd have > beaten him for sure. In the second task, she's defeated by grindylows--so? > She's probably never learned about them (they are found only in Britain and > Ireland, and that I *can* document--it's in FB). In the third task she's > sabotaged by a powerful wizard. > Why does everyone think Fleur is so bad at magic? Well, the biggest reason is that she "lost" the tournament. Of the two tasks we know about in which there wasn't significant tampering, Fleur turns in middling performances. She isn't the best in the dragon's task, as her skirt catches fire. As for the Grindylows, it doesn't take much to fend them off -- just shoot sparks at them. (Indeed, how did Fleur escape the grindylows, anyway? Did someone have to swim out and rescue her? Yikes, that is not a pretty image is it?) As for the sexist judges, well, Ron does tell us what happened with Fleur and the others in the first task, and he said Victor was best after Harry. Since we know how Ron feels about Fleur, his assessment is probably either on the mark or overly generous toward Fleur. Now, I think my previous posts suggest that I'm more than willing to defend characters who need a defense, sometimes even if they don't entirely deserve it. But Fleur doesn't get one for a simple reason. She is not nice. She does all of these unpleasant things (including looking at Ron like he is a sea slug when he asks her out, even though she could have been nice about it). But she doesn't change enough. She just thanks Harry, and at the end, she says she hopes she'll see him again soon. That's it. It would have been nice to see her really make amends for her unfriendly conduct and unfortunate remarks, but she was never given a chance. But hey, maybe there could be a Fleur support group. Something like Fleur Isn't Very Nice, But She Is The Best Beauxbatons Has To Offer, And She Was Slightly Less Unpleasant By The End Of GoF, And None Of This Is Her Fault Anyway? Cindy (who can't believe she is suggesting that Fleur should have been given more interaction with Harry in GoF, which would have made the book even longer) From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Oct 30 16:37:15 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 03:37:15 +1100 Subject: Info, Lockhart's exploits, wizard orphans Message-ID: <005301c16161$27308de0$a6846fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 28456 jenny from ravenclaw: > Unlike the students I've taught, Hogwarts students don't appear to have bibliotecaphobia; they head to the library to find supporting materials on their own steam, and they are successful Rumour has it that using the library as a source of information doesn't even occur to Kids These Days... they (or at least, the ones fortunate enough to have computer access) just go straight to the Internet. Ev vy: > They made an exception for Lockhart because he's so famous, there was no doubt in his abilities so his books were considered to be a proper source of knowledge. Hmmm... do people have any thoughts on how accurate the techniques reported in Lockhart's books actually are? OK, so we know *he* didn't apply them himself, but his comments about the harelipped witch or whatever suggest that the events did happen, he just stole them and took the credit. Though I have to say, a lot of the events he recounts in class some dubious in the extreme... (something about weaning the Wagga Wagga werewolf onto cabbage and catching ghouls in a tea-strainer?) Donna: > However, you would think the wizard world would make some provision for orphans, a good friend of the family, foster care or something. Ooo, good point. Neville was taken in by his grandmother and other relatives, but what we've seen of Harry and Tom Riddle suggests that this omission may be unwise, to say the least (was there once some facility that got "Fudged"?). What of Tom, anyway? Didn't his witch mother have relatives to take care of him? (*His* entire family obviously couldn't have been wiped out by Voldemort!) Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Oct 30 17:40:27 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:40:27 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? Message-ID: <9rmomb+h0n2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28457 After all those musings about favourite characters, I'd really like to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters would you want to date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but then, who cares)? You might also choose to date more than one (like my dream of inviting Moody, Snape and Remus to dinner). So, let's see who answers this, I'm curious (curiouser and curiouser, in fact) Susanna/pigwidgeon37 From raunistar at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 17:53:34 2001 From: raunistar at yahoo.com (raunistar at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:53:34 -0000 Subject: Three favourite and three least favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <9rm5nj+e8cc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rmpeu+63en@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28458 Ahem, delurking again... My humble list: My favourites: 1. Harry (well, this story needs him! ) 2. Snape (I love his complexity) 3. Tom Riddle (an enigma) Least favourites: 1. Lockhart 2. Rita Skeeter 3. Crappe&Goyle (Draco, get a life!) Rauni From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Oct 30 18:04:06 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:04:06 -0000 Subject: Empty Harry and Why I Don't Like Hagrid Message-ID: <9rmq2m+ppi0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28459 Hello Everyone! Here I sit, during my prep period at school. I should be working, but this is much better. First, Tabouli - I didn't make that bibliowhatever comment. Sorry! Second - Harry EMPTY?! What heartless person said that about my beloved Harry? Just because Harry's personality is not as clearly defined as Ron's or Hermione's does not mean he is empty. Harry to me is one of those people who knows when to keep his mouth shut and is usually objective. When Hermione goes to McGonagall about the Firebolt in PoA, Harry, IIRC, is angry but understands that Hermione was just looking out for Harry. Besides, Ron was the one who did all the talking; Harry didn't have to say a word. I think much of what Harry is and what makes him so "full" to me is his past and his inner struggles. Who are his parents, really? How will Harry continue to deal with his fame? Girls? His enemies? I sit and wonder about these things all the time. Who didn't feel for Harry when he was ready to jump at the chance to leave the deadful Dursleys and go with exciting Sirius? Who didn't commiserate with Harry when he finally got up the nerve to ask Cho to the Yule Ball only to be rejected? I've been there myself. I agree with what others said about Harry being a character who is empty only in the way that he is there as an observer and we can sometimes fill in the blanks. Other than that, I think he is as full as anyone else. Third - Okay, I have been avoiding this one for quite some time. I guess I should fess up and get it all out on the table. I don't like Hagrid - there, it's out. I find him annoying and irresponsible. I hated the way he handled the situation with Norbert and how Ron got hurt and Harry and Hermione got in so much trouble to protect Hagrid and his mistake. I'm not crazy about his drinking, especially when he should be sharp for his CoMC class, not hung over. I don't appreciate his love of all creatures dangerous. Those Blast Ended Skrewts were nasty and not tended to well at all. He also should have known better than to talk to Rita Skeeter, especially because he knew she wasn't supposed to be on the grounds of Hogwarts (Dumbledore's orders, no less) to begin with. I'm not saying that I think Hagrid is a bad guy; I don't think that. I just don't think he should teach at Hogwarts and I think he is way too dependent on HRH to help get him out of jams. He makes bad decisions and when your job is to watch out for KIDS I don't like it all. --jenny from ravenclaw, ready to hold her ground but prepared for the attack ************************************************************** From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 30 18:53:20 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:53:20 -0000 Subject: Why I Don't Like Hagrid In-Reply-To: <9rmq2m+ppi0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rmsv0+c5lp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28460 Jenny wrote: > Third - Okay, I have been avoiding this one for quite some time. I > guess I should fess up and get it all out on the table. I don't like > Hagrid - there, it's out. I find him annoying and irresponsible. I > hated the way he handled the situation with Norbert and how Ron got > hurt and Harry and Hermione got in so much trouble to protect Hagrid > and his mistake. I'm not crazy about his drinking, especially when > he should be sharp for his CoMC class, not hung over. I don't > appreciate his love of all creatures dangerous. Those Blast Ended > Skrewts were nasty and not tended to well at all. He also should > have known better than to talk to Rita Skeeter, especially because he > knew she wasn't supposed to be on the grounds of Hogwarts > (Dumbledore's orders, no less) to begin with. > > I'm not saying that I think Hagrid is a bad guy; I don't think that. > I just don't think he should teach at Hogwarts and I think he is way > too dependent on HRH to help get him out of jams. He makes bad > decisions and when your job is to watch out for KIDS I don't like it > all. > Jenny, You'll be surprised that I'm not going offer up either a passioned defense of Hagrid (defending Sirius has worn me completely out) or a detailed criticism of him either (listing Fleur's faults has drained me). Indeed, your assessment is quite charitable and forgiving, as Hagrid also assigned the Monster Book of Monsters because it was "funny," he wasted the students' time caring for flobberworms, he compromised security surrounding the Sorceror's Stone, among other things. But to the extent that Hagrid's teaching methods (or lack thereof) are suspect or negligent, I guess he's hardly better or worse than the other teachers we've seen in action. Madame Hooch -- tells the kids to kick off in their first lesson, without any apparent ability to rescue a student (Neville) who can't control his broom. Then, she leaves 19 kids there with unattended brooms, which is kind of like leaving 11-year old kids in a car with the engine running. One of them is bound to drive off. Snape -- kids are sometimes injured in his classes by melting cauldrons and exploding potions and such. Protective gear appears to be minimal. Lockhard -- 'Nuff said. Moody -- putting unforgivable curses on kids such that they crash into tables. Only McGonagal and Flitwick seem to take adequate precautions to prevent mishaps, starting the kids small and working them up to bigger things. So if Hagrid's CoMC class is risky, I guess that's to be expected at Hogwarts. Anyway, I am hoping that Hagrid will show us some reason for Dumbledore to have such trust in him, some character trait that we haven't seen yet. And at least Hagrid is nice, unlike a certain half- veela Triwizard Champion I could name. :-) Cindy From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 19:03:44 2001 From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:03:44 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: <9rmq2m+ppi0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rmtig+7s70@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28461 Jenny, Ah, a fellow Ravenclaw fan. I must say, that's where I would end up if I were at Hogwarts -- though when I took that test I came up as Hufflepuff. *shakes her head* > Third - Okay, I have been avoiding this one for quite some time. I > guess I should fess up and get it all out on the table. I don't like > Hagrid - there, it's out. I find him annoying and irresponsible. I > hated the way he handled the situation with Norbert and how Ron got > hurt and Harry and Hermione got in so much trouble to protect Hagrid > and his mistake. I'm not crazy about his drinking, especially when > he should be sharp for his CoMC class, not hung over. I don't > appreciate his love of all creatures dangerous. Those Blast Ended > Skrewts were nasty and not tended to well at all. He also should > have known better than to talk to Rita Skeeter, especially because he > knew she wasn't supposed to be on the grounds of Hogwarts > (Dumbledore's orders, no less) to begin with. I like Hagrid. But he's not my favorite character for all the reasons you listed above. He makes me have less confidence in Dumbledore, too -- as a groundskeeper Hagrid is fine, but as a teacher? No, I really don't think so. About the dangerous creatures thing, though, I have a theory. Someone has probably already said this, but I think that obsession can be traced back to Hagrid's somewhat dangerous heritage. His mother is half-giant, and Hagrid has had to deal with prejudice stemming from people's fear of giants his entire life. Maybe his fascination for dangerous creatures is caused by his need to prove that they AREN'T as dangerous as people think they are. Stacy (poking her head out of lurkdom) From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 19:08:49 2001 From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:08:49 -0000 Subject: Three favourite and three least favourite characters. In-Reply-To: <9rmpeu+63en@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rmts1+v6j3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28462 My favorites: 1. Hermione (she's so underappreciated) 2. Dumbledore (he reminds me a little of my grandfather who died not too long ago) 3. Lupin (more stable than Sirius) Snape and Draco would have to come in as honorable mentions, but only because of the potential I've come to believe they have because of fanfiction. My least favorites: 1. Lockhart (one dimensional and irritating) 2. The Dursleys as a group 3. Karkaroff (the coward) Stacy From linman6868 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 19:15:10 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:15:10 -0000 Subject: Why I Don't Like Hagrid In-Reply-To: <9rmsv0+c5lp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rmu7u+92nk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28463 Cindy wrote: > Indeed, your assessment is quite charitable and forgiving, as > Hagrid also assigned the Monster Book of Monsters because it > was "funny," he wasted the students' time caring for flobberworms, he > compromised security surrounding the Sorceror's Stone, among other > things. About the Monster Book: I'm not so sure the Monster Book was a bad choice for COMC. After all, the whole point of the class is to learn to a) be alert, not afraid, and know what to do with recalcitrant creatures; and b) once that's mastered, know how to care for them. Hagrid could have used the students' reaction to the Monster Book to make his point: that once you know what to do with certain creatures, you don't have to be afraid of them, and your relationship with them can turn to both your advantage and the creatures'. Hagrid's mistake (a common first-year teacher's mistake, and I should know) was to assume that because the students didn't figure this out on their own, he was a failure from the start because they just didn't like his subject. When Malfoy sneered, "Oh, we just have to *stroke* them. Why didn't we think of this before?" Hagrid could have said, "That's right, Malfoy; that is the first thing to learn in caring for magical creatures -- how to get past their defenses." There are any number of things Hagrid could have done in the two years he's taught to turn bad situations into object lessons -- but he hasn't developed the teacher's sight for that yet. And I agree with Malfoy and the Trio about the Blast-Ended Skrewts. Surely it said something to Hagrid that these things were used as deadly obstacles in the Third Task?? As for the rest of it, I like Hagrid very much, but I see his weaknesses all too clearly. Lisa From tillrules at aol.com Tue Oct 30 19:40:55 2001 From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:40:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three favourite and three least favourite characters. Message-ID: <90.1c17ec70.29105c47@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28464 Favorites (aside from the trio, they're given): 1) Oliver Wood: I just find him so sympathetic. You genuinely feel for him when they finally win the Quidditch cup. 2) Cho Chang: I really like her a lot. I think the backlash against her is undeserved for the most part since she's never been anything but nice to Harry. Choosing Cedric as her date certainly is not bad considering that Cedric did ask her first and Cedric is a very nice guy. Plus, she supports Harry when many are against him in GoF right after his name comes out of the goblet. 3) Ginny: Another genuinely sympathetic figure. Her longing for Harry (the most famous, popular boy in school) is something we can all relate to. Plus, her use by Riddle is so evil that you have to love her for surviving. Came close to making my list: Lee Jordan: He cracks me up with his commentary in the quidditch matches., the twins (not only for the comedy but for their loyalty to their family) and Sirius. Least favorite: 1) Draco: I just find him to be absolutely contemptible in every way. He only seesm to exist to cause others pain. 2) Snape: Yes, he's brave for being a spy, but I don't think he's good, simply someone who sees siding against Voldemort as being a better alternative than having Voldemort win. His bravery is almost self preservation to me. He seems too me to be a vindictive man who's still nursing his schoolboy grudges (to the point of endangering the Trio's lives in the Shack) years later. 3) Trelawney: There may be a payoff down the line (her first right prediction coming into play most likely), but as of this point, she's a one joke character who's annoying. Almost made my list: Lupin (His angst gets to me after a while) and Dudley (another annoying little brat) From brian7b at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 20:03:17 2001 From: brian7b at yahoo.com (brian7b at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:03:17 -0000 Subject: colors of robes Message-ID: <9rn125+c3au@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28465 do the colors of the robes mean anythibng? From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Tue Oct 30 20:12:02 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:12:02 -0500 Subject: Least Favourite/Most Favourite Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05592@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 28466 It's almost impossible to pick the most favourites. I suppose I could do them according to order of magnitude: 1st order of magnitude (in no order): Sirius, Remus, Snape 2nd order of magnitude (in no order): Dumbledore, Lucius, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Draco 3rd order of magniture (in no order): McGonagall, Hooch, Filch, other students Harry's year Least favourite characters (these I can just name): 1. Karkaroff 2. Moaning Myrtle 3. Colin Creevey These three are really about the only ones I just don't like, with the possible addition of Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore. Everyone else has at least some mitigating or qualifying factor that makes me at elast accept the character. I may not actively _like_ some characters, such as the Dursleys or Dobby or Millicent Bulstrode, but I don't mind them showing up. Gwen (who _hates_ Lockhart as a person, but thinks he's an amazingly perfect lounge lizard) From thebether129 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 20:21:15 2001 From: thebether129 at aol.com (thebether129 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:21:15 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's gleam Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28467 In a message dated 10/30/2001 6:09:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, Calypso8604 at aol.com writes: > > Dumbledore, of course has to be in here somewhere (but the gleam > > still worries me) > > > > :-D...I have a theory about that. I think that Dumbledore realizes that in > Voldemort taking Harry's blood he has made himself a bit more susceptible > to > death. Therefore he *can* be killed, contradictory to his belief that he > has > overcome death. Dumbledore realized this but didn't tell Harry because > Harry > would do something stupid like go after Voldemort right away without > thinking > > > ~ Calypso I'm kind of new, so I don't know if this has been said before but has anyone ever thought that since WORMTAIL took Harry's blood to give to Voldemort and Wormtail owes his life to Harry because Harry saved his life, that this can somehow be Voldemort's downfall? Wouldn't that make Voldemort in debt to Harry? Just a theory... ~Beth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 20:28:55 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:28:55 -0500 Subject: Fave/least fave - Harrys character - Fleur - Veritaserum - Weird Sisters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28468 Hi all, I tried to make my two lists of three people and I just couldnt do it. There were too many I loved or couldnt stand for too many reasons. And then there are all those puzzlers like: do you include the Trio (well, theres my listand then what do I do with Lupin? And Dumbledore? ARGH!)? and do you list the most out-and-out evil (Voldemort), or the worst-written (Lockhart) even if the badly-written are characters you like (Percy), or the one youd least like to get on the wrong side of in real life (Rita)? Oh, I guess I kind of made my list after all. I'm not going to answer the "who would you date?" question because I've made a new year's resolution not to embarrass myself in large public forums. Ev vy, youre a brave woman to have said it, so I should leave you be, but you really think Harrys character doesnt work anymore? I think he is getting more and more interesting. In book one he was mostly a sweet and brave boy, though even then he was no cuddly little pushover (ID like to read it, as its MINE, LOL!), but he has acquired/revealed more and more complexity over the following three. I just cant wait to see what hes like after the graveyard experience. Re: Davids prediction on that score, I doubt JKR sits there with a DSM-IV checklist or is going to put in a footnote, Have symptoms like Harrys? You may have PTSD. Call your doctor for a full examination . . ., but I do think both Sirius and Harry show the marks of trauma and Harry is likely to show more in 5, in subtle ways (subtler even than haunted eyes, perhaps). As you can tell, Id have a thing or two to say to Taboulis snooty academic. Empty character indeed! I snort in his/her general direction. Cindy wrote: >In a way, Fleur gets cheated a bit, >doesn't she? Cedric and Harry have lots of interaction (and Cedric >gets to reveal his outstanding character). Harry interacts with Krum >in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" (and Krum gets to reveal his >insecurities). But where is Fleur's big scene with Harry where she >gets to reveal her character? There really isn't one, other than >thanking him for saving her sister. Really good point. I think this is why its so easy to dislike Fleur. There are other small signs that make me think the criticism of the food, the castle, and Harry (the little boy comment) are just your usual 17-year-old petulance and theres more to her once you get to know her: her nervousness before the first task, her tremendous affection for her sister (at least, the merpeople thought Gabrielle was the person she would miss most), and her graciousness to Harry on departing. It really is quite normal for teenagers to gripe about other schools and places they visit, especially when they are there for 9 months and are probably homesick. Not everyone can be a model of mature kindness like Cedric. Cindy again: >She isn't the best in the dragon's task, as her skirt catches fire. Cedrics head caught fire. (Now Im wondering if he DID come in ahead of Fleur. Maybe he didnt. Damn me for lending my GF, but I swore to the Dark Lord I would win over hearts, and I needed to help a friend along the road to obsession.) And Krum let the other eggs get trampled. I think the judges might be suffering from beautiful-woman syndrome (=if shes beautiful she must be stupid). >As for the >Grindylows, it doesn't take much to fend them off -- just shoot sparks at them. I think it cant be that easy; otherwise, the entire Dark-creature section of DADA would simply consist of the rule Stomp on creature very hard with boot. Theres a knack to dealing with each creature, and then you have to learn the particular spell. Every school has its own curriculum, and grindylows might not have been on Beauxbatons. Susanna Luhtanen wrote: >Crouch gave Harry Veritaserum Interesting theory! Rowena asked: >I don't think 'Twisted Sister' is an all girl band >so why should the Weird Sisters be? Im pretty sure theyre not. IIRC, theres a famous Quidditch player (female) whose son (male ) plays in the Weird Sisters. Am I hallucinating? Anyone got a QTTA handy? Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- "Are you, er, much of a religious man yourself?" said Rincewind as clouds whipped by the window. "I believe all religions do reflect some aspect of an eternal truth, yes," said Carrot. "Good wheeze," said Rincewind. "You might just get away with it." -Terry Pratchett, The Last Hero --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From thebether129 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 20:42:13 2001 From: thebether129 at aol.com (thebether129 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:42:13 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three favourite and three least favourite characters. Message-ID: <158.33ddf96.29106aa5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28469 My Favorites: 1. Sirius (i just LOVE how he is a father figure for harry and i love his personality) 2. Draco (I love his sarcasm and I don't think he's as bad as he thinks he is) 3. Ron and Fred and George (ok i love all three of them so i decided to make them one! lol i think these guys are hilarious!) Least Favorite: 1. Snape (i think he is a well written character, but he just pisses me off with his unfairness) 2. Hagrid (something about him makes me think he's bad news) 3. Ginny (she's too shy) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From derry at lakesedge.org Tue Oct 30 21:24:14 2001 From: derry at lakesedge.org (Derry) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:24:14 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. References: <9rkilh+5bfl@eGroups.com> <004101c160c9$fd7ff900$df08f1d5@OSLII> Message-ID: <015e01c16189$869351a0$2603000a@noconcall> No: HPFGUIDX 28470 The characters are in alphabetical order - choosing three was hard enough, never mind putting them in order! 'Least favourite' is a combination of characters who I'd like to see less of and characters who really disappointed me. Favourite characters: * Minerva McGonagall - Strict but fair, though with the occasional lapse when it comes to quidditch to give a bit more personality. The kind of person I would have wanted as a teacher. She's the only person at Hogwarts that I would trust completely to do what she thought best for a pupil. Even Dumbledore has his own agenda bubbling away. * Draco Malfoy - Again, complexity. I feel sorry for Draco - he's spent his life trying to live up to his parents' expectations. This is the main reason I can't see him turning 'good'. I don't think he's strong enough to break away from his parents to that extent. * Severus Snape - I love the complexity of this guy. Yes, he can be cruel (the "I can't see any difference" comment makes my blood boil) but when it comes to the line between the big bad and big good, he just about wobbles over to the big good. Least favourite characters: * Crouch-as-Moody - I was so upset for Harry when he turned out to be a DE. I doubt the real Moody will be much like CaM. It's quite a shock to completely lose a character you've come to care for and to realise that that character never really existed. * Hagrid - I suspect JKR may have more in line for him but at the moment, the gentle giant with unconventional tastes is a little shallow. * Rita Seeker - The tabloid journalist is _such_ a stereotype. Derry (who, depending on the Sorting Hat, is Slytherin, Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. Mostly Slytherin.) -- http://lena.lakesedge.org \\ http://lena.lakesedge.org/pros Flying saucers are real, the Air Force doesn't exist. From jennifervarady at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 21:31:50 2001 From: jennifervarady at hotmail.com (jennifervarady at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:31:50 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <9rmbqq+g3fe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rn686+ggm4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28471 > > > > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be > called, and > > what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, > Lockhart did.) I would write "Care and Conniving" Practical uses for Invisibility Cloaks and how to protect yours.......by Sir Rep Titious Jenny!!! ROFBHOCD (rolling on floor bumping head on computer desk) From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Oct 30 21:37:41 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:37:41 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and alcoholic drink In-Reply-To: <9rmq2m+ppi0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rn6j5+ukru@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28472 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jenny from ravenclaw" wrote: > I'm not crazy about his drinking, especially when > he should be sharp for his CoMC class, not hung over. We do know that Hagrid got a little plastered in the PS/SS Christmas Dinner, that he drinks a rather large tankard of mulled wine (POA), but do we have any evidence that he's hungover in class or that's he's been drunk during school hours? IIRC, Draco mentions that Hagrid gets drunk in Hogsmeade, but how reliable is that rumor? Milz (who sometimes mulls wine so much the alcohol boils out) From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 21:41:07 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:41:07 -0000 Subject: In Defense of Fleur? (WAS Gryffindors - MWPP ages - SWMNBN - HP ) In-Reply-To: <9rmk5l+rikt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rn6pj+3tod@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28473 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Why does everyone think Fleur is so bad at magic? Well, the biggest > reason is that she "lost" the tournament. Of the two tasks we know > about in which there wasn't significant tampering, Fleur turns in > middling performances. Yes, but you have to put it in context. Besides all the stuff you and Amy have written, in Task 1 and 2, I think that Krum and Fleur were only as good as their respective heads of school - and Harry would have totally failed both Tasks 1 and 2, particularly the latter, if he hadn't had help. However, what is more important is the context of the Champions being chosen itself. Fleur was the best candidate Beauxbaton had to offer. Now, I have always thought that Beauxbaton was the premier wizarding school in Meditteranean and Central Europe. Fleur is shortlisted for the chance to enter, so is obviously one of the Creme de la Creme of the school and therefore one of the best young witches on the Continent, unless she used her Veela charms to become shortlisted. However, the Goblet of Fire, which is supposedly completely impartial, chose her above everyone else. Why? She must be a talented witch, which leads me to believe that she has qualities which are so far unseen. I have to say that I initially disliked Fleur, because Hermione did and does, but I changed my opinion. I think she's a prime example of someone who looks very one-dimensional to start with, and turns out to be just the reverse. Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 21:53:08 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:53:08 -0000 Subject: Hagrid In-Reply-To: <9rmtig+7s70@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rn7g5+5f1e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28474 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote: > About the dangerous creatures thing, though, I have a theory. Someone > has probably already said this, but I think that obsession can be > traced back to Hagrid's somewhat dangerous heritage. His mother is > half-giant, and Hagrid has had to deal with prejudice stemming from > people's fear of giants his entire life. Maybe his fascination for > dangerous creatures is caused by his need to prove that they AREN'T > as dangerous as people think they are. > I'm not going to spend ages defending Hagrid, although I love him dearly and, although I recognise his faults, I do think he has many redeeming features - such as his fierce loyalty, his affection for people, his kindness - and I love it when we realise in PoA that Hermione has been crying on his shoulder. It screams "gentle giant" at me. But: dangerous creatures? I think that Hagrid's teaching methods have developed out of security. He started off extremely well, and had his lesson sabotaged by Draco, which almost resulted in his sacking, and the death sentence of Buckbeak. So, before he even has the chance to develop a teaching style, he is immediately put on the defensive, and resorts to being ultra careful with the flobberworms. The only other dangerous creatures he introduces are the scroots - others being Snifflers, Salamanders and (continuing) Unicorns. Not exactly dangerous. He shows with these that he has the potential to be a very good teacher. He shows that he knows just as much about unicorns than Professor Grubbly-Plank, and is informative about Hippogryffs until Draco ruins everything. Therefore, my problem with the way Hagrid teaches has nothing to do with Hagrid, but the very laissez-faire attitude of Dumbledore. Now, I know that Dumbledore has more serious concerns (such as saving the world from Voldemort), but I do think that thrusting Hagrid in at the deep end like that without any real guidance or ongoing support is unforgivable. I hate saying anything negative about Dumbledore, but I do feel that in this case he should have at least delegated someone into helping Hagrid, and should have been more proactive rather than reactive. Catherine From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Oct 30 21:53:37 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:53:37 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <9rmomb+h0n2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rn7h1+a0sq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28475 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > After all those musings about favourite characters, I'd really like > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters would you want to > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but then, who cares)? > You might also choose to date more than one (like my dream of > inviting Moody, Snape and Remus to dinner). > So, let's see who answers this, I'm curious (curiouser and curiouser, > in fact) > > Susanna/pigwidgeon37 Okay, so I've got a choices... 1. A really nice guy (plus), who turns into a blood-thirsty werewolf once a month (minus). But it is sort of controlled by a potion (plus). If he remembers to take it (minus) 2. A guy who's done time in jail (minus) for crimes he didn't commit (plus)and is still on the run (minus). But he really cares about his god son (plus). But he turns into a dog ( big minus...my cats would never forgive me) 3. A guy with rather subjectively poor personal hygiene (big minus) who used to hang out with a bad crowd (subjective minus)and might be on their hit list (minus). But he might be a good guy after all (a wait-and-see plus) 4. A retired law-enforcement type who's a wee bit paranoid. (minus) 5. A handsome celeb (plus) who doesn't remember a single thing about his colored former life (minus). His memory has been completely wiped out that he's basically an empty shell (minus---too much work to make a new man out of) Ummm....well, I would...hmmmm...Being single isn't that bad, is it?;-) But from my pluses and minuses, Lupin comes out with an equal number. Milz From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 22:00:51 2001 From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:00:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three favourite and three least favourite characters. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28476 Gah, this is difficult. Let me first say that these lists change for me ALL the time. And I'm going on canon here, not the way fanon sometimes makes these characters out. Faves: 1)Hermione - Honestly, I don't know why something in me leaps when Hermione has air-time. I'm not the slightest bit like her and don't particularly empathize with her. I think I admire her strength - she regularly stands against opposition for what she thinks is right. I like her confidence, and the fact that she's not afraid to show her brilliance (even if she does go a bit overboard). I guess I wish I were a bit more like Hermione and wish I had a friend as stalwart as she is. 2)Neville - I think Neville's situation is worse than Harry's with regard to parents; it would be horrid to have your parents not even recognize you. I empathize with his forgetfulness and clumsiness and I can't imagine how lonely it is for him, what with Seamus and Dean being best friends and Harry and Ron being best friends. Odd man out and all that. The fact that he's so sweet makes me smile and I admire him for standing up to the Trio in the first book. 3)PercyRonOliverMcGonagall - Okay, so I'm cheating. But I literally agonized for about half and hour on who to put down as third. I wanted to put Percy but a lot about what I like about him is more read between the lines. I wanted to put Ron but he annoys me at times a bit too much. Oliver and McGonagall are too minor and not as developed to say that they're absolute favorites. So I put all four of them down. Least Faves: 1)House Elves - I would be much happier if they all would disappear. I hate their manner of speech, I hate their big eyes, and I find them the single most annoying entity in the books. They are the ONLY entity that I consistently and wholeheartedly dislike. I guess they just ride me the wrong way. 2)Gilderoy Lockhart - I do not like his ego. People who intentionally make themselves out to be "famous" annoy me and the preening makes me frown. And people who can't admit when they've made a mistake make me want to scream. Plus, there was the whole willing-to-erase-Harry-and-Ron's-memories-to-make-him-look-better thing. 3)Draco Malfoy - I'm sorry, he has to go on the list. I find him an interesting character and can't wait to see how JKR handles him in the future but I don't *like* him at all. His sneering, his insults, the way he uses his "muscle" (CrabbenGoyle) to make himself look tougher is annoying. Whether or not he's "evil" isn't the question, he's just plain not a pleasant person to be around at this juncture. Maybe it's an act, maybe it's a reaction to being abused, maybe it's the only way he knows how to act. However, until we find out for certain, I can't help disliking him even if the whys of how he acts is intriguing. Dang, this was MUCH harder than I thought it would be. Seriously thinking about the characters, not letting fanfic or fandom fancies intrude, evaluating them was tough. ~Amber ******** http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com "Shadow-Lover, you alone can know How I long to reach a point of peace How I fade with weariness and woe How I long for you to bring release Shadow-Lover, court me in my dreams Bring the peace that suffering redeems." - "Shadow Lover" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Calypso8604 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 22:17:58 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:17:58 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fleur / Veelas Message-ID: <14e.33f49b8.29108116@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28477 In a message dated 10/30/01 9:58:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, margdean at erols.com writes: > OTOH, it might be interesting to see what happens if anyone ever > got Fleur =really, really= angry. Does anyone remember what an > =angry= Veela is like? >:) Yes, the bird-women things....Kind of like sirens in Greek mythology (sometimes sirens are known as mermaids though and harpies are the bird women..) ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 22:26:14 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:26:14 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <9rn7h1+a0sq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rn9e6+oqvk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28478 Milz, you should put a warning before messages like this: Do Not Read in a Public Place. I am in the town library, laughing so hard at this >1. A really nice guy (plus), who turns into a blood-thirsty werewolf >once a month (minus). But it is sort of controlled by a potion >(plus). If he remembers to take it (minus) that people at the other terminals keep sneaking looks to see who the loony library lady is. Since you seem dissatisfied with the choices, I remind you that there are other men of majority age in the books. I gather you are heterosexual, but you still have some options you haven't explored. How about Flitwick? Bill? Charlie? Take a plunge into the adventuresome world of affairs with married men and go for Mr. Weasley, Malfoy Sr., or Fudge? Try a life on the lam with Karkaroff, or encounter exotica with Hagrid, or break those silly prohibitions on dating someone old enough to be your great-great-grandfather and snuggle up with Dumbledore! Amy Z From Calypso8604 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 22:33:51 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:33:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who would you like to date and why?? Message-ID: <12b.69eed3c.291084cf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28479 In a message dated 10/30/01 12:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it writes: > After all those musings about favourite characters, I'd really like > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters would you want to > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but then, who cares)? > You might also choose to date more than one (like my dream of > inviting Moody, Snape and Remus to dinner). > So, let's see who answers this, I'm curious (curiouser and curiouser, > in fact) > Ok, I'm going to try to pick just ONE, something new and different for me! ^_~ Hmm, let's see, who will the lucky guy? It's a tough decision between Percy, Remus, Charlie, Sirius and Severus. Argh, this is harder than it looks! Well, I'll try to think realistically then..(about dating fictional characters....^_^) I will go with Percy! He's reliable, has the Weasley appeal and he's closest to my age. ^_^ He's also one of my favorite characters! I've argued many arguments supporting Percy ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 22:59:01 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:59:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <12b.69eed3c.291084cf@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011030225901.70266.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28480 Well, if I was much younger and naturally single, which would help on both accounts, it would definitely be one of the Weasley Twins! Reading about all the fun stuff they do is great appeal to me! Maybe that's why I'm married to Roy, he is a Stooge all the way! The more fun the better! I like the kind of mischief they get into! Well, that's my input on this! I only hope the twins in the movie are just as funny! Wanda the Witch and Her Merry Band of Muggles --- Calypso8604 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/30/01 12:48:22 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it writes: > > > > After all those musings about favourite > characters, I'd really like > > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters > would you want to > > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but > then, who cares)? > > You might also choose to date more than one (like > my dream of > > inviting Moody, Snape and Remus to dinner). > > So, let's see who answers this, I'm curious > (curiouser and curiouser, > > in fact) > > > > Ok, I'm going to try to pick just ONE, something new > and different for me! ^_~ > > Hmm, let's see, who will the lucky guy? It's a tough > decision between Percy, > Remus, Charlie, Sirius and Severus. Argh, this is > harder than it looks! Well, > I'll try to think realistically then..(about dating > fictional > characters....^_^) > > I will go with Percy! He's reliable, has the Weasley > appeal and he's closest > to my age. ^_^ He's also one of my favorite > characters! I've argued many > arguments supporting Percy > > > ~ Calypso > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 23:06:03 2001 From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (Michelle) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:06:03 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <12b.69eed3c.291084cf@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rnbor+ccld@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28481 Hmmm ... I think I'd have to go with Bill, the rebel with his long hair and dragon hide boots or Charlie, the athletic, rugged one. Or maybe I'll just take them both Michelle :) From opaldragonfly at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 23:14:25 2001 From: opaldragonfly at yahoo.com (opaldragonfly at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:14:25 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <9rmomb+h0n2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rnc8h+srcq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28482 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > After all those musings about favourite characters, I'd really like > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters would you want to > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but then, who cares)? > You might also choose to date more than one (like my dream of > inviting Moody, Snape and Remus to dinner). > So, let's see who answers this, I'm curious (curiouser and curiouser, > in fact) > > Susanna/pigwidgeon37 Dear Pigwidgeon37--I have set my cap (which doesn't much cover my slightly graying hair) for wonderful Albus Dumbledore. He is the one for me! We're both old enough to know better but not care anymore! I think he needs someone who can both nurture and engage in intellectual conversation, but can live her life independently as well (no clinging vine types need apply). Also--I too need warm socks, so I would be sure that he never had cold feet! Since I am also a college professor, I hope he would find me in tune with his love for youth and learning! Speaking of "tune," I sing and play the guitar, so he could have music wherever we went and whenever he wanted. I think that the ratio of his years to mine (3:1) means that he and I would grow old together. Opal Dragonfly From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 23:19:56 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:19:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <9rn7h1+a0sq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011030231956.42388.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28483 > pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > After all those musings about favourite > characters, I'd really like > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters > would you want to > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but > then, who cares)? > You might also choose to date more than one (like > my dream of > inviting Moody, Snape and Remus to dinner). Mmmm...Bill Weasley. I have a serious weakness for red-heads (which means I adore the entire Weasley family without exception - I even have a soft spot for Percy). I LOVE a guy with hair you can really run your fingers through, so that's a definite plus. He's just enough of a rebel, but he's also obviously an intelligent and responsible man. (Twelve O.W.L.s and Head Boy at Hogwarts) He is dedicated to his family, a MAJOR requirement for me. He even comes out to support Harry, the quasi-adopted member of the family, during the last task of the TWT. He's very supportive, and immediately throws in with Dumbledore once the situation comes out. Aaaahhh....call me Mrs. Bill Weasley any day! ;) I also have soft spots for Sirius and Lupin, but honestly, who doesn't? [g] Andrea C.R.A.B., P.I.N.E, and wanna-be L.O.O.N. ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Oct 30 23:22:25 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:22:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Empty Harry and Why I Don't Like Hagrid In-Reply-To: <9rmq2m+ppi0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011030232225.23920.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28484 Jenny, I'm not going to hurl tomatoes at you (need them to prepare the Italian dinner for Snape, Moody and Lupin- drool!!) and have to say that you certainly have got some points about Hagrid: His character and behaviour perfectly illustrate the saying (translated from German): "The opposite of 'good' is not 'bad', but 'well-intentioned' ". That comes rather close to what Hagrid is. He never means to do any harm, but always succeeds in getting himself or others into the worst scraps imaginable . And he's immature. A child's soul within a gian'ts body. And we shouldn't forget that in CoS he's 62 years old- even if wizards live longer than Muggles, this equals at least 40 Muggle years. I wouldn't say that I dislike him, but he makes me feel very uneasy, because the next time he does something wrong, it might have more serious consequences than just detention for HRH or a few points taken from Gryffindor. susanna/pigwidgeon37 (wondering whether werewolves eat lasagne) jenny from ravenclaw wrote: Third - Okay, I have been avoiding this one for quite some time. I guess I should fess up and get it all out on the table. I don't like Hagrid - there, it's out. I find him annoying and irresponsible. I hated the way he handled the situation with Norbert and how Ron got hurt and Harry and Hermione got in so much trouble to protect Hagrid and his mistake. I'm not crazy about his drinking, especially when he should be sharp for his CoMC class, not hung over. I don't appreciate his love of all creatures dangerous. Those Blast Ended Skrewts were nasty and not tended to well at all. He also should have known better than to talk to Rita Skeeter, especially because he knew she wasn't supposed to be on the grounds of Hogwarts (Dumbledore's orders, no less) to begin with. I'm not saying that I think Hagrid is a bad guy; I don't think that. I just don't think he should teach at Hogwarts and I think he is way too dependent on HRH to help get him out of jams. He makes bad decisions and when your job is to watch out for KIDS I don't like it all. --jenny from ravenclaw, ready to hold her ground but prepared for the attack ************************************************************** Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ ***Special Announcement from Hexquarters*** After Hallowe'en, please post ALL shapes and forms of discussion of the Harry Potter movie to our new list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie. Join up! Join up! - the projector's rolling... Before posting to any of our lists, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Nokia Game is on again. Click here to join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From john at walton.vu Tue Oct 30 23:32:02 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:32:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <20011030231956.42388.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28485 Hmm. If we're sticking to canon, it would have to be Harry (once he's grown up a little, of course!). That vulnerable, lost little puppy thing he has going for him really gets my sympathetic side going. Aw, 'eesosweet! ::cuddles wee Harry:: I also like Oliver Wood, because he seems so in-charge yet unsure of himself. He doesn't quite lose it with F&G, but is obviously discomfited by those nasty evil troublemakers ;) Poor Wood... ::cuddles wee Oliver:: Were I straight, it would have to be Hermione. She's so like me in so many ways -- the reading, the sarcastic sniping, the frustration when people don't know things...the bad dress sense (have you SEEN the non-uniform clothes she wears in the movie?!) ::cough:: In fanon, of course, it would have to be Draco. That Reformed Evildoer is just the kind of project I'd like to take on. ::cuddles wee Draco:: Awww...going all warm and schnoogly... --John ____________________________________________ When the dark comes rising, six shall turn it back; Three from the circle, three from the track; Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone; Five will return and one go alone. --Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" sequence John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 30 23:38:58 2001 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:38:58 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <20011030231956.42388.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9rndmi+kbij@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28486 > > pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > After all those musings about favourite > > characters, I'd really like > > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters > > would you want to > > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but > > then, who cares)? > > You might also choose to date more than one (like > > my dream of > > inviting Moody, Snape and Remus to dinner). > I know this is seriously unoriginal by now, but I must put my vote in for Charlie Weasley. The rugged type appeals to me :) Just the thought of being part of the Weasley clan makes me smile, as I love large households and the chaos that comes with it. Of course I'd have to dump the husband and seriously lie about my age... Mary Ann :) From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Tue Oct 30 23:42:34 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:42:34 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <9rmomb+h0n2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rndta+1rli@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28487 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > After all those musings about favourite characters, I'd really like > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters would you want to > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but then, who cares)? > Um, I'd probably have to break this down: Best candidate for marriage -- Fudge. I've always wanted to be First Lady. Best good time on a date -- Bill Weasley. Most in need of a good woman -- Toss-up between Lupin and Black, although HP seems full of men who have vulnerable sides to them. I think Black might turn out to be a bit controlling in a relationship, so Lupin is the better bet. A really wild dinner party would include Moody, Lupin, Trelawney, Snape and Dumbledore. I like my dinner parties to be memorable. Cindy From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Oct 30 23:53:25 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:53:25 -0800 Subject: Percy and Penelope (was: Three favourite and three favourite characters.) In-Reply-To: <16.14782d6a.290f17a2@aol.com> References: <16.14782d6a.290f17a2@aol.com> Message-ID: <10711180235.20011030155325@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28488 Monday, October 29, 2001, 12:35:46 PM, Calypso8604 at aol.com wrote: Cac> 3. Penelope Clearwater - She took *my* Percy -_-. Does anyone besides me wonder if they broke up? (No sign or even any mention of her in _GoF_.) -- Dave From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 00:04:11 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:04:11 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy and Penelope (was: Three favourite and three favour... Message-ID: <60.16007049.291099fb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28489 In a message dated 10/30/01 6:59:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: > Does anyone besides me wonder if they broke up? (No sign or even any > mention of her in _GoF_.) > *looks around cheerfully* Well, let's hope so! Er...I mean.... I was actually wondering that myself. But it is because I have a wonderful ship in my mind that requires Penny to be out of the picture relationship-wise with Percy......Fleur/Percy! It could be...er, "interesting"... ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 31 00:40:30 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:40:30 -0800 Subject: FLARES (FLeur Appreciation & REcognition Society) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6214005790.20011030164030@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28490 Tuesday, October 30, 2001, 7:50:58 AM, Amy Z wrote: AZ> I am about ready to start a Fleur Defense League, and I don't even *like* AZ> her. You can sign me up, Amy, though I go a bit beyond you -- I *do* like her! ... I think like Hermione, she will "lighten up" a good deal in future books... And for you fellow Janites I think she's actually more analogous to Mr. Darcy than Snape is -- Right down to the goodness underlying the outward pride first manifesting itself in obvious love for a younger sister! AZ> If it weren't for Karkaroff's screwy scoring she'd have AZ> beaten him for sure. And we know Bagman is biased as well... AZ> In the second task, she's defeated by grindylows--so? AZ> She's probably never learned about them (they are found only in Britain and AZ> Ireland, and that I *can* document--it's in FB). And maybe the Beauxbatons DADA post is jinxed too... :) AZ> In the third task she's sabotaged by a powerful wizard. And I think the rule about the one most behind in points starting last really stank... -- Dave From golden_faile at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 00:57:13 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:57:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <20011030231956.42388.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011031005713.70550.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28491 --- Andrea wrote: > > pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > After all those musings about favourite > > characters, I'd really like > > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters > > would you want to > > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but > > then, who cares)? > > > I would have to say Sirius. He won that hands down, I like the mysterious type, and his eyes sound absolutely gorgeous! IF I were a teenager it would have to be one of the weasley twins, they always seem to be having such a good time. Laila __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 00:58:52 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:58:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape and Emergencies In-Reply-To: <9rmsv0+c5lp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011031005852.90490.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28492 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > Snape -- kids are sometimes injured in his classes > by melting > cauldrons and exploding potions and such. > Protective gear appears to > be minimal. However in all fairness to Severus he does seem to keep antidotes and counter-agents handy. Remember he has a shrinking spell right on hand when Harry tosses a firecracker in Goyle's, (or was it Crabbe's?) cauldron splashing enlarging potion on everybody. I suspect much of Snape's hostility towards Neville is based on the fact the boy is an actual hazard to the rest of the class, not to mention Snape himself. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 31 01:02:13 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:02:13 +0000 Subject: FLOPSIE - FLeur's Obviously a Pretentious Snob, Irritating Everybody In-Reply-To: <6214005790.20011030164030@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28493 Sorry, FLARES folks, I'm having to start FLeur's Obviously a Pretentious Snob, Irritating Everybody. Because she is. Firstly, zee accente. Eet eez zo cliched, n'est-ce pas? Et veree eereetateeng. Grr. Secondly, she is a snob. We're supposed to dislike her, 'eavy 'ogwarts food and all. Third, isn't our acronym SO much better than yours? ::evil grin:: Fourth, she has a wee sister, who is annoyingly likely to turn up in later books. Fifth, she's a veela. Eeeeew! Nasty dark creature! Yuck! Roll up, roll up...I've got tons of FLOPSIE badges here...yes, folks, a CASE of the FLOPSIEs... [groans, rotten eggs, cabbage] --John ____________________________________________ *"Quidditch Through The Ages" by Kennilworthy Whisp: 14 Sickles 3 Knuts *New Firebolt Broom: just over 100 Galleons *Watching Draco Malfoy being bounced up and down after being turned into a ferret: Priceless The best things in life are free. For everything else, there's Harry Potter. John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 01:10:44 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:10:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom Riddle and orphanage In-Reply-To: <9rm6ed+lne1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011031011044.32689.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28494 --- Sofie wrote: > That's something I've been wondering too > actually...why can't Harry > stay at Hogwarts over the summer? If Tom asked to do > it then you can > see that it is a possibility. Why does Dumbledore > continue to send > Harry back to a family that don't love him? It can't > be about safety > because otherwise it would be safe for him to be > there during term > time. Hmmmm... anyone any ideas? Apparently because Hogwarts is all but abandoned every summer. According to JKR, (as documented in the Lexicon) only Filch remains at the school year round. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 31 01:20:02 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:20:02 -0000 Subject: Bang Three Times (filk) Message-ID: <9rnjk2+7u2f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28495 BANG THREE TIMES To the tune of Knock Three Times, which can be heard at http://www.rhs51.com/fifties4.htm Dedicated to Lisa Inman & Angela Boyko THE SCENE: The Malfoy Estate, early fall 1992. Enter LUCIUS MALFOY and the enslaved DOBBY LUCIUS Hey elf what ya doin'down there Makin' my silver gleam while you put cream in my coffee To some wrong folks you've been talkin' Doin' by far too much squawkin' In my house with me but you don't obey me I loathe this Oh my Dobby Bang three times on the mantle with your head now Iron your hands just to make sure you know Oh, my house-elf (Bang! Bang! Bang!) means that you're learning your lesson Twice slam your ears if you're learning too slow (Exit LUCIUS) DOBBY Dobby snuck out of the mansion tonight Pulling some strings to seize letters addressed to young Harry >From Hagrid, Weasley and Miss Granger I must rescue him from danger Although to atone I must become self-disciplinary Oh my goodness Bang three times my head upon the doorway Two waterjugs shatter over my brow Oh my master (Bang! Bang! Bang!) means that Dobby's such a bad elf Just two more whacks, hope I'm all done for now Though a good elf is obedient Dobby needs a good expedient To give of his all to work Harry's withdrawal >From Hogwarts Oh, young Harry Bank three times that this house-elf will yet save you Blockades I'll place so on trains you can't go Oh, my hero (Bang! Bang! Bang!) means you're overcome by Bludgers Fall off your broom, then just look out below! (DOBBY vanishes) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 31 01:24:22 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:24:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FLOPSIE - FLeur's Obviously a Pretentious Snob, Irritating Everybody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3916638392.20011030172422@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28496 Tuesday, October 30, 2001, 5:02:13 PM, John Walton wrote: JW> Firstly, zee accente. Eet eez zo cliched, n'est-ce pas? Et veree JW> eereetateeng. Grr. Not Fleur's fault. -- Could you tone down the phonetic dialects in the next book please, JKR? (I also blame Mark Twain for ridiculous printed dialects...) JW> Secondly, she is a snob. We're supposed to dislike her, 'eavy 'ogwarts food JW> and all. Again, I think she will "lighten up"... If she thinks Hogwarts is so repulsive, why does she seem so anxious to get a job there? JW> Third, isn't our acronym SO much better than yours? ::evil grin:: I'm open to other suggestions... FLARES was a spur-of-the-moment choice... JW> Fourth, she has a wee sister, who is annoyingly likely to turn up in later JW> books. As long as she doesn't talk like Bess in _Little Men_ (i.e. annoying baby talk), I don't care. :) :) JW> Fifth, she's a veela. Eeeeew! Nasty dark creature! Yuck! Werewolves are also "Nasty dark creatures", yet we have Lupin... Actually all the books on magical beings I've read suggest Veela are okay, generally. (Only thing about Veela is, don't get them mad...) -- Dave (Who is always defensive about Veela because he's written a book that features three very nice ones...) From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Oct 31 01:35:41 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:35:41 -0000 Subject: Sirius vs Snape (WAS:Snape's and Black's grudges) In-Reply-To: <16f.31895f6.290fd603@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rnkhd+ovru@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28497 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Calypso8604 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/29/01 11:21:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > claire_iceprincess at y... writes: > > > > Snape and Sirius are actually more alike than they'd > > care to admit, though. > > I have always thought that too! Both misunderstood, both bitter about > grudges....Oh, and when I read the description for Sirius the first time I > thought he looked a little like Snape! (NOTE: I said a *little*) At the risk of sounding like an idiot (not that this fear has ever stopped me before...) I'll repeat something I've said in previous posts - we will find out that the two are related. I agree - the first two things that struck about these two is that they are both tall, slender and dark. Plus, they have the same rhythmic pattern in their names. My initial off-the-wall thought was that they are fraternal twins who were separated at birth. Marianne, waxing whimsical about those tall, dark, handsome (at least one of them!!) guys From broken at pixicore.org Wed Oct 31 02:40:43 2001 From: broken at pixicore.org (broken at pixicore.org) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:40:43 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? References: Message-ID: <001901c161b5$75455f20$a30eddc8@grupotv1.com.br> No: HPFGUIDX 28498 Cedric Diggory, hands down. He's decent, kind, AND probably has a six-pack, three major requirements for me. He's dead, though, which is a definite throwback. I don't remember who said it, but the only thing more pathetic than being in love with a fictional character is being in love with a dead fictional character. In second place, probably Bill or Charlie, or even one of the Weasley Twins . Again, the redhead thing is a major factor here, and Bill and Charlie seem very mature and intelligent. And outdoorsy--I can really picture them driving a Pathfinder through a rugged mountain road with me in the passanger's seat. The Weasley Twins are the exact opposite of this, which has it's attractions: but B&C still come before them. As for women, yeah, definitely Hermione for the exact same reasons. I am perhaps the only bisexual man with a ghastly fashion sense, and I'd much rather delve into a book than engage in meaningless conversation with some idiot. So yay for embittered sarcastic pseudo-intellectuals! Bk. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Walton To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? Hmm. If we're sticking to canon, it would have to be Harry (once he's grown up a little, of course!). That vulnerable, lost little puppy thing he has going for him really gets my sympathetic side going. Aw, 'eesosweet! ::cuddles wee Harry:: I also like Oliver Wood, because he seems so in-charge yet unsure of himself. He doesn't quite lose it with F&G, but is obviously discomfited by those nasty evil troublemakers ;) Poor Wood... ::cuddles wee Oliver:: Were I straight, it would have to be Hermione. She's so like me in so many ways -- the reading, the sarcastic sniping, the frustration when people don't know things...the bad dress sense (have you SEEN the non-uniform clothes she wears in the movie?!) ::cough:: In fanon, of course, it would have to be Draco. That Reformed Evildoer is just the kind of project I'd like to take on. ::cuddles wee Draco:: Awww...going all warm and schnoogly... --John ____________________________________________ When the dark comes rising, six shall turn it back; Three from the circle, three from the track; Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone; Five will return and one go alone. --Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" sequence John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ____________________________________________________________ ***Special Announcement from Hexquarters*** After Hallowe'en, please post ALL shapes and forms of discussion of the Harry Potter movie to our new list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie. Join up! Join up! - the projector's rolling... Before posting to any of our lists, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com. Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Oct 31 01:50:28 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:50:28 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <9rmomb+h0n2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rnld4+3rjt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28499 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: Well, if I was considerably younger, I'd lasso Fred or George in a heartbeat. Or maybe both - I'm sure lots of fun and laughter would ensue. And, I'd be more than happy to break any number of rules with them. But, since I'm a responsible adult (:-O) I'd have to wrestle with the choice of either Sirius or Remus. Actually, if you'll let me date both twins, then you should let me date both R and S. It's a tough choice - I'm an absolute sucker for dark men with light eyes (blue, grey, green, who cares...). Plus, if they have these tragic, angsty backgrounds and are in need of good food, a place to crash, and a sympathetic ear, well, I will turn into a wobbling mass of jello. Then again, the controlled, gentle, but potentially hidden-volcanic werewolf appeals also. Decisions, decisions.... Marianne From thebether129 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 01:53:50 2001 From: thebether129 at aol.com (thebether129 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:53:50 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? Message-ID: <159.3440942.2910b3ae@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28500 In a message dated 10/30/2001 6:41:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, macloudt at yahoo.co.uk writes: > > > pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > > After all those musings about favourite > > > characters, I'd really like > > > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters > > > would you want to > > > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but > > > then, who cares)? > > > You might also choose to date more than one (like > > > my dream of > > > inviting Moody, Snape and Remus to dinner). > Most definitely DRACO!! I just adore this kid (probably just because of all the good fanfics i've read about him). But I just think that we are so much alike. No, Im not as mean as him, but I always have some sarcastic comment to make! ~Beth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 02:07:27 2001 From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (Michelle) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:07:27 -0000 Subject: FLOPSIE - FLeur's Obviously a Pretentious Snob, Irritating Everybody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rnmcv+3r7r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28501 I'm afraid I am totally in for FLOPSIE. She walks around flipping her hair, doesn't like english food ... well, I can almost understand that one ... and treats Harry like a little boy, when we know he is much more mature than other boys his age. She is apparently the best Beauxbatons has to offer (of the lot they brought with them) yet can not fend off a grindylow, which Harry has no problem doing, even while completely underwater (the first time they encountered them they were above water in DADA). Yeah, she annoys me. Michelle :) <---who would join FLOPSIE even if she did like Fleur because John started it and she worships and adores John ... why is it the really cool guys are the ones I can't have .. Bill, CHarlie, Sirius, Remus, John p.s. John, calm down ... I'm mostly kidding ... although I really do worship and adore you :) From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Oct 31 02:32:17 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny from ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:32:17 -0000 Subject: FLARES (FLeur Appreciation & REcognition Society) In-Reply-To: <6214005790.20011030164030@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9rnnrh+8abr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28502 Tuesday, October 30, 2001, 7:50:58 AM, Amy Z wrote: > > AZ> I am about ready to start a Fleur Defense League, and I don't even *like* AZ> her.> Dave H responded: > You can sign me up, Amy, though I go a bit beyond you -- I *do* like > her! ... > Two sickles from me, too, Dave. John, your FLOPSIE is a flop with me. I see a double standard and a bit of feminist backlash here. Draco is a nasty git, yet many seem to just adore his hideous ways. Then there is Snape, with his greasy hair, unfair House point giving and clear favorites playing and *everyone* thinks he is just peachy. Give me a break! I wonder if it is Fleur's looks that make everyone judge her so harshly. She is not a character we know very well, but she is very pretty and not so comfy in England - big deal. Are we expecting Fleur to be super nice because of her looks? I honestly don't have a problem with her being a little frosty; I don't think she owes anyone any special behavior. Remember, she was quite nice to Harry after he pulled her sister out of the lake, and, IIRC, she was nice to Ron at some point as well. I would like to see Fleur be more developed in the next book, but I stand strong and proud by my belief that Fleur has learned to be self-protective out of necessity. I think she is tough and proud, and I like that. --jenny from ravenclaw, glad to share her House table with Fleur ************************************************* From tabouli at unite.com.au Wed Oct 31 02:53:55 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:53:55 +1100 Subject: Circumspect Harry, pro-Cho, NKS, Hagrid, HP men Message-ID: <003801c161b7$5f6134c0$19856fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 28503 > David, suspecting that Tabouli isn't telling all she thinks on this > one (i.e. the empty Harry): Wot, me, not rant for pages at the least provocation? (e.g. a tax return, an assault on the good name of Tom Bombadil or a book about robot love, etc.). Actually, after my initial indignation, I did pause to wonder if there was something in the empty Harry (so to speak!), as David implies. I think my objection was more to the snooty, dismissive air of the academic concerned (who was female, btw), whom I suspected of looking for reasons to criticise HP because it's highly popular among the unwashed masses and therefore of no literary merit by definition. I hate that sort of attitude. Hmm. To be honest, I haven't thought that much about it since, or I would no doubt have regaled you all with my musings. I'd need to reread the series with it in mind. My instinct is that Harry comes across as pretty circumspect - as one of the actors in the movie said, he mostly reacts rather than acts, especially in SS/PS. Private, wary, intuitive, proud, a touch of learned helplessness (e.g. accepting the Dursleys' favoritism because to him it's normal, or the oppression of the house-elves), but with courage, humour and craftiness. Scott: > Cho (She broke Harry's heart and I know what thats like... I can understand her for that but I don't have to agree/like her for it) Poor Cho. All she did was accept an invitation from Cedric to the Ball, and he appeared to be her boyfriend anyway (remember he was unaffected by the best of Fleur's Veela-ing). We don't even know for sure that she knew about Harry's crush on her (after all, he's a year below her and she's only really interacted with him at Quidditch). Then, when Harry asked her at the last minute, what was she supposed to do? Say yes and tell Cedric she's changed her mind? Stand Cedric up or two-time him just so she could say yes to Our Hero, whom she hardly knows? Surely that would be much more manipulative and shallow of her. And it's not as if she turned Harry down in the nasty, disdainful way Fleur turned Ron down, she was sorry and pretty sensitive about it (I could imagine much more snooty rejections from a 15 year old girl... "As if!"). I think we're in need of another support group here. How about C.I.N.E.M.A.? (Cho Is Not an Evil Minx Association) Calypso: > My Pen Name would be Calypso, of course! I just love that name! Do you like the Suzanne Vega song of that name as well?? The nicest place to eat on the island of Ikaria when I was there (1998) was called Calypso too, if you're ever there... David: > >Whisper it who dares, but could she have >subliminally got some of her words from Nancy Stouffer after all? >Not that that gives NS a case but our minds are deceptive. Whatever happened with Prancy Nancy, anyway? Have JKR's lawyers laughed her out of town yet? jenny from ravenclaw: > First, Tabouli - I didn't make that bibliowhatever comment. Sorry! Oops! Sorry. Whoever it was must have quoted you earlier in their post and I must have misread. Catherine: > I love it when we realise in PoA that Hermione has been crying on his shoulder. It screams "gentle giant" at me. I see Hagrid as the archetypal lovable bumbler, with all the corresponding faults and virtues of the type. On the subject of the trio's chumminess with Hagrid, I wonder if the days of children having approved close friendships with large adult males are numbered in the real world, because of the newfound recognition and terror of paedophilia (I think I read somewhere that the correct word should be pederasty, but anyway). Can you imagine a 13 year old Muggle girl regularly going to the adult male gamekeeper's hut to cry on his shoulder in a real school these days without her parents and teachers getting paranoid? My feelings on this are mixed. On one hand, there is no question that paedophilia is abominable. On the other, I've heard that it's reaching the point where men are reluctant to become teachers, especially in primary school, leading to lack of role model issues with boys, etc. As another example, a (male) friend of mine once found a small child lost and crying outside his house, and didn't dare to ask her how she was and comfort her because he was afraid of how it might look. He went and got his girlfriend to do it instead. As a little girl, I remember having lots of friendly interaction with adult men, and I feel sad to think that this seems to have become taboo. Answers to OT-Chatter... Susanna: > Who of the characters would you want to date and why? Milz: > Ummm....well, I would...hmmmm...Being single isn't that bad, is it?;-) But from my pluses and minuses, Lupin comes out with an equal number. Amy Z: > Since you seem dissatisfied with the choices, I remind you that there are other men of majority age in the books. I gather you are heterosexual, but you still have some options you haven't explored. How about Flitwick? Bill? Charlie? Take a plunge into the adventuresome world of affairs with married men and go for Mr. Weasley, Malfoy Sr., or Fudge? Try a life on the lam with Karkaroff, or encounter exotica with Hagrid, or break those silly prohibitions on dating someone old enough to be your great-great-grandfather and snuggle up with Dumbledore!< (Tabouli chuckles merrily). For the lady looking for financial stability with the spice of the forbidden, Vernon Dursley has a vacancy in the mistress department. For the sportier lass, have you contemplated the slightly-suspicious but cheery charms of Ludo Bagman? Or considered curling up on a carpet with Ali Bashir? The more nurturing woman with a passion for cats might be tempted to nurse Argus Filch back into health and happiness. Then, for those who go for the Bad Boy Walk on the Wild Side stuff, there's always Voldemort and his crew. Let Wormtail slide his silver hand over yours in that movie theatre! Gaze into Voldemort's smouldering serpent eyes! Andrea: > Mmmm...Bill Weasley. I have a serious weakness for red-heads (which means I adore the entire Weasley family without exception - I even have a soft spot for Percy). I LOVE a guy with hair you can really run your fingers through, so that's a definite plus. He's just enough of a rebel, but he's also obviously an intelligent and responsible man.< For me, though, I think I have to go with Andrea on this one (I'll fight you for him!). Adventurous, quirky, smart, independent, confident, strong sense of self, caring secure family background, interesting, well-travelled, gorgeous long red hair... what more could a woman want? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 31 03:17:17 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 03:17:17 -0000 Subject: HP men In-Reply-To: <003801c161b7$5f6134c0$19856fcb@price> Message-ID: <9rnqft+cpp6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28504 > (Tabouli chuckles merrily). For the lady looking for financial stability with the spice of the forbidden, Vernon Dursley has a vacancy in the mistress department. For the sportier lass, have you contemplated the slightly-suspicious but cheery charms of Ludo Bagman? Or considered curling up on a carpet with Ali Bashir? The more nurturing woman with a passion for cats might be tempted to nurse Argus Filch back into health and happiness. Then, for those who go for the Bad Boy Walk on the Wild Side stuff, there's always Voldemort and his crew. Let Wormtail slide his silver hand over yours in that movie theatre! Gaze into Voldemort's smouldering serpent eyes! > My goodness! I think there is a full moon tonight! While we are looking for eligible men of age for Amy, I think I will call your collective attention to the fact that not one person has proposed a fling with Dumbledore. Shame, shame, shame. For a taste of international intrigue, however, Karkarov appears unattached. You could even borrow his fur coat for a night on the town. I'll also point out that Moody appears to be a thoroughly available older and mature man. *Clunk, Clunk, Clunk.* (Use your imagination). Cindy From morsethanatos at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 06:50:19 2001 From: morsethanatos at yahoo.com (morsethanatos at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:50:19 -0000 Subject: The torn bag problem. Message-ID: <9ro6vb+9uc4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28505 Hi, I was rereading POA(lost count of how many times a while ago) and as I was going through the part where Crookshanks slashes Ron's bag to get at Scabbers, an idea hit me. Bags are getting torn quite often in the books. Harry gets his torn by the dwarf, Hermione's bag splits from all the books, Ron's is ripped apart, Harry splits Diggory's bag, and I think there are some more. First of all how do they replace/fix these things? But more importantly is this just a technique that JKR likes or could there me something more to this? Morsethanatos( From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Wed Oct 31 05:44:35 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:44:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <001901c161b5$75455f20$a30eddc8@grupotv1.com.br> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28506 Ah, a frivolous topic we all can enjoy. *g* My first choice would have to be Prof. McGonagall, definitely. She's smart, authoritative, wears glasses, and has the first name Minerva. *g* I mean, really, how incredibly cool is it to be named Minerva? :) I admire the way she enforces rules, but can also bend them (i.e., allowing Harry to play Quidditch and arranging for him to have a broomstick; or her willingness to let Hermione have a Time-Turner to take all those classes). And besides, in my mental image she looks nothing like Maggie Smith, except perhaps as she did back when she was Miss Jean Brodie, in her prime. But still, even as a "sprightly" seventy, she's probably in reality a little too old for me. Would never happen. So my next choice would be Cho, probably. In fact, she reminds me a lot of an ex of mine, and is probably very much my type, if she just got a little more page time. She's in Ravenclaw, which means she has to be very into school and intellectual activity, so she'd be a good match for me that way, but she also plays Quidditch, so she's athletic and er, limber. *g* And we've been told repeatedly how pretty she is, so that's good. Hermione would drive me up the wall. I wouldn't want to be friends with her, let alone *date* her. Ugh. All that stressing about school is unpleasant. I do enough of it myself, thank you. :) And for all that she memorizes a lot, I'm still not impressed by her intellectual abilities particularly. That's not what she values (or she'd be in Ravenclaw and wouldn't decry "Books! And cleverness!") and I think she's much more likely to focus her energies elsewhere and view knowledge as a tool rather than a goal. I respect that, certainly, but it's not an attitude I want in a partner. Molly, too married and maternal. Narcissa, too shallow and mean, though she's probably very attractive, and the sort of woman I end up fascinated by. The Quidditch girls (Angelina, Katie, and Alicia), too athletic and uninteresting. Lavendar and Parvati, too silly. Padma, possibly. She's supposedly the best-looking, plus she's in Ravenclaw. That's about it, isn't it? There's still Mesdames Pinch, Hooch, and Pomfrey, but, well, they seem too unpleasant, gym-teacherish, and nurturing, respectively. Hmm, well, yes, Prof. McGonagall or Cho, then. --jen, who would probably date Lupin or Charlie, were she that way inclined. :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jfaulkne/fan/hp.html (URL change!!) Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Oct 31 07:37:35 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:37:35 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <12b.69eed3c.291084cf@aol.com> Message-ID: <9ro9nv+nc11@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28507 Well, what a great question.... I'm very happy that Dragonfly will become involved with Professor Dumbledore....he is my all time favorite character, and I'm pleased that someone will become romantically involved with him. I must admit that Professor McGonagall is my desired, uh, date. In part, this is because my beloved partner identifies with Maggie Smith/McGonagall, and in fact, I am going to post her picture RIGHT NOW on the files board....although this is McGonagall with her hair down, oftentimes my partner has it braided and curled around her head and can look quite severe, just like Minerva.. Unfortunately, there are too few women who are interesting...but now that I've seen Madam Hooch's portrayal in the film, I wouldn't mind a liaison with her... If I were straight, I would seriously consider a menage a trois with Lupin and Sirius..(lovely erotic energy between them would enhance the experience)....or with Bill and Charley. S From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 31 08:21:37 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:21:37 -0000 Subject: MOVIE MERCH: HP Trading Cards Message-ID: <9rocah+haln@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28508 Hi all, Just had a message from the Sylvan Lane Shoppe about the new Movie Trading Cards. I've had a quick look, and they are absolutely superb. Much, much better than the first illustrated cards. They contain scenes/characters from the movie, with an explanation of the scene on the back. If anyone wants to check it out, the link is: http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/harrypotter_moviecards.htm No: HPFGUIDX 28509 In order to answer this, I have to pretend my Hufflepuff husband is not in the picture, although he is a definite keeper. I am torn between Sirius (a younger man) and Albus (not). Sirius just makes my hormones sit up and take notice. That's all. I've already said I would like to indulge him with rich dinners and hot tub evenings... Albus possesses an imp of the perverse. He says outlandish things that make me laugh ("...map of the London underground on my left knee..."). I can see the glitter of humour in the blue eyes. I could not predict whether or not a date with him would lead to bedroom time. As I can readily imagine a Matt Dillon/Miss Kitty relationship with Minerva, probably not. But there you are. Albus for a relaxing evening with a fascinating person, Sirius for a romantic evening with a desirable man. dittany "Nitwit; oddment; blubber; tweak." just a few words from Albus From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 31 08:59:15 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:59:15 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <9rmomb+h0n2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9roeh3+op56@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28510 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > After all those musings about favourite characters, I'd really like > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters would you want > to date and why? It has to be Draco, I love the whole bad boy thing...but I'm sure he has a good side too. But If I'm allowed to go for an older man, Sirius definatly. He's all moody with a past and that's really a plus for me. Sofie (choosing her very expensive wedding dress, well Draco's loaded!) From tabouli at unite.com.au Wed Oct 31 09:33:52 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:33:52 +1100 Subject: Fleur: the jury's still out Message-ID: <002e01c161ef$47e73fa0$b790aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 28511 jenny from ravenclaw: >> Two sickles from me, too, Dave. John, your FLOPSIE is a flop with me. I see a double standard and a bit of feminist backlash here. Draco is a nasty git, yet many seem to just adore his hideous ways. Then there is Snape, with his greasy hair, unfair House point giving and clear favorites playing and *everyone* thinks he is just peachy. Give me a break! I wonder if it is Fleur's looks that make everyone judge her so harshly. She is not a character we know very well, but she is very pretty and not so comfy in England - big deal. Are we expecting Fleur to be super nice because of her looks? I honestly don't have a problem with her being a little frosty; I don't think she owes anyone any special behavior. Remember, she was quite nice to Harry after he pulled her sister out of the lake, and, IIRC, she was nice to Ron at some point as well.<< My feelings on this debate are mixed. On one hand, as I've often ranted on OT-Chatter, I detest persecution of the beautiful, the gifted, the brilliant, the rich, etc. stemming from jealousy and resentment and a desire to "even up" their unfair advantage, which often means that the wonderful lives these people are presumed to have and are being punished for don't actually materialise. On the other, Fleur doesn't appeal to me much as a character. I confess that I do find her a little annoying and snooty. In real life I sympathise a lot with beautiful women crippled by other people's objectification and jealousy, and agree with jenny, but alas, I felt no great sympathy for the Fleur in GoF. Perhaps she'll redeem herself in later books - I'm open to this, and won't join either society as yet. In respect for jenny's points, though, I'll offer up an acronym for Fleur defenders... FOLDEROL = Fleur's Our Lady: Discerning (about food, dress, etc.), Exceptional (at magic, at least within Beauxbatons), Reserved (as well she might be after all the ogling and jealousy she must get), Ornamental (well, OK, I needed a word that meant beautiful, and O was left over!) and Loving (towards her sister and people she genuinely trusts). For the record, I think canon Draco is a good fictional character, but would dislike him as a real person (snobbish, self-satisfied, bigoted, vengeful), and as I've said all too many times, Snape is fascinating, but not very nice (intolerant, insensitive, humourless, etc.). Neither of them would be up on my personal bedroom wall... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 10:30:11 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 05:30:11 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] FLOPSIE - FLeur's Obviously a Pretentious Snob, Irritatin... Message-ID: <15f.31e45e6.29112cb3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28512 In a message dated 10/30/01 8:07:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, john at walton.vu writes: > Sorry, FLARES folks, I'm having to start FLeur's Obviously a Pretentious > Snob, Irritating Everybody. Because she is. If that were so obvious then she wouldn't have begun to redeem herself at the end of GoF. She's another character that isn't what she seems at first. After all, nobody liked Sirius at first in PoA I'm sure > > Firstly, zee accente. Eet eez zo cliched, n'est-ce pas? Et veree > eereetateeng. Grr. Er...you're going to dislike someone because of how they talk? > > Secondly, she is a snob. We're supposed to dislike her, 'eavy 'ogwarts food > and all. Once again, I do not think we supposed to dislike her. We're supposed to judge her at first and then wait as she begins revealing her real character. > > Third, isn't our acronym SO much better than yours? ::evil grin:: Well, since you had to use additional letters from Fleur's name just to make a cool acronym, then no. Although I can't remember the name of the Fleur Defense one... > > Fourth, she has a wee sister, who is annoyingly likely to turn up in later > books. What? How are you judging Fleur because her sister turned up? I think that was something that was supposed to make us reconsider our judgment of her. > > Fifth, she's a veela. Eeeeew! Nasty dark creature! Yuck! > As Dumbledore always says, you can't help who your family is. Hagrid is part giant but that doesn't make him bad ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 10:56:57 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 05:56:57 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Circumspect Harry, pro-Cho, NKS, Hagrid, HP men Message-ID: <2f.1cf695e6.291132f9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28513 In a message dated 10/30/01 9:52:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, tabouli at unite.com.au writes: > Do you like the Suzanne Vega song of that name as well?? The nicest place > to eat on the island of Ikaria when I was there (1998) was called Calypso > too, if you're ever there... > Ah, I am probably revealing my true immaturity but who is Suzanne Vega? I have not heard of her nor have I been to Ikaria ^_^. I actually got the name from the most obvious source; Homer's The Odyssey. I'm sure most of you already know but Calypso was a nymph or goddess that lived on the island of Ogygia, which means 'the sea's navel' and Calypso means 'she who conceals'. I just thought she was a cool addition to Greek mythology and her name is great! ~ Calypso ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 11:07:31 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:07:31 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] The torn bag problem. Message-ID: <130.3d34cce.29113573@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28514 In a message dated 10/31/01 2:01:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, morsethanatos at yahoo.com writes: > First of all how do they > replace/fix these things? > *grins* Spellotape. No, seriously though they *are* magic....I'm sure if people are able transfigure their friends into badgers and make broomsticks come to you, then they can fix a bag ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 31 11:49:56 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:49:56 -0000 Subject: Who would be your best friend? Message-ID: <9rooh4+opt3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28515 This is going along the same train of thought as 'who would you date' but if you could choose anyone from the potterverse to be you bestest ever friend who would it be? And why? I think I would chose Hermione, because she truly is a good friend to Harry and Ron. whenever they fall out with each other, she tries desperatly not to take sides. She goes along with their schemes even risking her own perfect record. And she seems like a genuingly nice person. But on the other hand there is Lupin. He's a great listener, he's has his own problems so it's not a one sided relationship and he seems to be quite sensitive.He's also got a lot more life experience and therefore will give good advice. All you could want in a male friend...but then I could have him as a boyfriend as well as a best friend. I choose Lupin, sorry Hermione! From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 11:55:55 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:55:55 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who would be your best friend? Message-ID: <109.7d953ec.291140cb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28516 Hm...Well, from current Hogwarts the Weasley twins and Lee would be my crowd. They remind me A LOT of my friends and I. If I were Hogwarts back in the day of MWPP they'd be the crowd I hung around with. Well, at least the MWPP/L crowd from my fic ^_^. ===== Calypso "Aw, c'mon James, think of the possibilities of having a giant hamster!.." Sirius Black, The Marauder Chronicles In a message dated 10/31/01 6:51:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk writes: > This is going along the same train of thought as 'who would you date' > but if you could choose anyone from the potterverse to be you bestest > ever friend who would it be? And why? > > I think I would chose Hermione, because she truly is a good friend to > Harry and Ron. whenever they fall out with each other, she tries > desperatly not to take sides. She goes along with their schemes even > risking her own perfect record. And she seems like a genuingly nice > person. > > But on the other hand there is Lupin. He's a great listener, he's has > his own problems so it's not a one sided relationship and he seems to > be quite sensitive.He's also got a lot more life experience and > therefore will give good advice. All you could want in a male > friend...but then I could have him as a boyfriend as well as a best > friend. I choose Lupin, sorry Hermione! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 31 11:57:48 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:57:48 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <9roeh3+op56@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9roovs+tfg9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28517 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " wrote: > It has to be Draco, I love the whole bad boy thing...but I'm sure he > has a good side too. But If I'm allowed to go for an older man, > Sirius definatly. He's all moody with a past and that's really a plus > for me. > Sofie (choosing her very expensive wedding dress, well Draco's > loaded!) I've changed my mind can I have Remus and Sirius? Remus because he's perfect marriage material and then Sirius could be my first love, the one with all the fond memories of sneaking out and taking moonlit flying motorbike rides. Oh and Draco to be the bad boy in my past who broke my heart when he wouldn't commit but I had fun with beforehand. Sofie (wishing she could have all three and maybe a fling with a grown-up Harry...oh how can a girl chose with all this fantastic fanfiction that's about...) From mediaphen at hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 12:24:51 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:24:51 +0100 Subject: Fave/least fave - Harry's character - Fleur - Veritaserum - Weird Sisters References: <1004483999.2949.17457.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28518 Hi everybody! Starting with the faves etc... Favourite characters (excluding Harry Himself): 1. TOT (The Other Trio): Lee Jordan, Fred and George Weasley As you all know, having a clear picture of who I am ;-), Lee Jordan is exactly how I was in school. We all need a good laugh (especially during dark times) and Lee and his best friends provide that constantly. Plus, the twins have proven that they truly care for Harry, and are probably his closest friends outside The Original Trio. 2. Hermione Granger To come from a totally different background (muggle) and dominate the wizarding world with such confidence never stops impressing me. She's witty, charming and smart, and she is so with no intention of impressing the other students whatsoever, IMHO. She is basically the wizarding UK equivalent to my all time favourite Simpson, Lisa. Sign me up for S.S.H.I.A.B.B. any day! 3. Moody/Crouch Any of these two will do (at least if the real Moody is anything like the act Crouch put up). The bouncing ferret, the constant vigilance, the total devotion to his Dark Overlord... His/their peronality/ies is/are so strong that it practically rises from the pages of the book and make me commit to constant vigilance myself. Those who nearly made the list (in no particular order): Ronniekins, Trevor, Dedalus Diggle, Lucius Malfoy, Snape, Lupin, Mme Maxine's horses (gotta love them for their great taste in beverage!) And the not so fave ones: 1. Hagrid The loveable, gentle giant has unfortunately been around in popular culture ever since Disney decided to make all those literary figures into bears (Baloo (who of course really /is/ a bear), Little John etc). They hardly differ at all, it's all a big blur of teddybearesque craftsmen, which unfortunately means I can't name one, all of them being indistinguishable from the other. Hopefully Rubeus will add some character to his clich further on, but for the time being, I could live with him getting much less sceentime. Plus what Jenny said. 2. Crabbngoyle Siamese children, related by the fists. Why must all yay-saying henchmen always be a duo, with all muscle and no brains? Or is it just me being prejudiced? Maybe they're really kind, caring, intelligent and warm, but are just afraid to go against naughty, evil Draco and his father's dirty money? Nah... 3. Dobby-Dobby Binks Although, I have to admit, he made quite the improvement in GoF, he still is the Gungan of Potterverse, and, more frightening, he is so in a galaxy really, really close not too long time ago. Those who nearly made the list (in no particular order): Fudge, Crookshanks, all the screwts, Quirell, and what's-his-name who went with Fleur to the ball. Dream dates: (since we don't have that dating culture here in Sweden, I have to go with the knowledge I got from various American sit-coms and movies) 1. Fleur Delacoeur What can I say? I'm just as shallow as the next guy, and going out with a stunningly beautiful woman with a French accent really impresses the lads... 2. Madame Rosmerta I get the impression that she's busty, down-to-earth and generally happy, all of which are traits I find attractive in a woman. She would probably laugh at all my jokes, too. 3. Joanne Kathleen Rowling She is obviously very intelligent, self-confident and attractive. I also believe she is really nice, too. And she is disturbingly rich... ;-) Those who nearly made the list (in no particular order): Hermione (since she, IMNSHO, was born in 1980 and thus is 21 by now it's OK for a 26-year old to date her, right?), Jenny from Ravenclaw, McGonnagall, the lead singer in The Weird Sisters (see below) Amy Z (my list-elf, btw): >As you can tell, I'd have a thing or two to say to Tabouli's snooty >academic. Empty character indeed! I snort in his/her general direction. I fart in your general direction, I believe the quote goes... Not that I ever do. Anyway, no need for snorting or farting just yet. A concept that has worked well ever so often is to make the lead character in a series (cartoons, books, what-have-yous) rather blank in order to make it easier for the reader to identify with himer. A great example of this is Tintin. Tintin himself was full of personality in the early years, but quite frankly the comic was rather crappy back then. When Herg introduced the more colourful characters (captain Haddock, professor What's-his-name-in-English etc) he faded Tintin's personality into total neutrality. Any reader can relate to Tintin (he doesn't even have an age, for all I know he could be anything between 18 and 40) and that is part of what makes it the best (IMHO) comic ever. With that in mind, it wouldn't be all too surprising if JKR had let Harry be a somewhat tabula rasa, characterwise. However, I don't think she did. Harry is mostly (emphasise on mostly, there are exceptions) calm, neutral, objective, observing (and more). But these are all strong personality traits, and do not make Harry an empty character. So, in conclusion, the sneering and snooty academic Tabouli mentioned is generally not way out of line, but in this specific case (Harry Potter, that is) s/he is, IMO. Therefore, I won't fart in hiser general direction, but rather in hiser specific one. Cindy wrote: >In a way, Fleur gets cheated a bit, >doesn't she? Cedric and Harry have lots of interaction (and Cedric >gets to reveal his outstanding character). Harry interacts with Krum >in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" (and Krum gets to reveal his >insecurities). But where is Fleur's big scene with Harry where she >gets to reveal her character? There really isn't one, other than >thanking him for saving her sister. Is it okay with a "Me too" if it is inside a longer post? Maybe I'm just affected by Fleur's veelaism (yet another example of how JKR's magic sometimes work in real life), but if there are any Fleur Support Groups out there, I'd like to join. I did fly to Jupiter on my broom, you know. And my father is the richest wizard ever, so I can afford the two knuts it costs to join. Cindy: >As for the >Grindylows, it doesn't take much to fend them off -- just shoot sparks at them. Amy Z: >I think it can't be that easy; otherwise, the entire Dark-creature section >of DADA would simply consist of the rule "Stomp on creature very hard with >boot." There's a knack to dealing with each creature, and then you have to >learn the particular spell. Every school has its own curriculum, and >grindylows might not have been on Beauxbatons'. Plus, IIRC, grindylows can be found in Britain and Ireland, but not in France. Susanna Luhtanen wrote: >Crouch gave Harry Veritaserum Luckily he didn't rant on like that guy in Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy, because had he done so, telling the whole truth about *everything*, GoF would be even longer. Which I, btw, wouldn't have a problem with. Rowena asked: >I don't think 'Twisted Sister' is an all girl band >so why should the Weird Sisters be? Amy Z replied: >I'm pretty sure they're not. IIRC, there's a famous Quidditch player >(female) whose son (male ) plays in the Weird Sisters. Am I >hallucinating? Anyone got a QTTA handy? I believe the Weird Sisters are from Ireland and consists of aforementioned Quidditch-son, Kirlie McCormack (from QTTA), on guitar and his (my beliefs/hopes) stunningly talented and pretty sisters Andrea (lead vocals, tin whistle), Caroline (drums, bhodran, piano, vocals) and Sharon (violin, vocals). Although I, as a Swede, would love to see Dave's vision of ABBA reunited come true. If there is an ABBA-Teens, why not an ABBA-Witches? Well, back to work, Martin, who wishes someone "over there" could digitalise tonight's episode of the Simpsons Halloween special and send it to me as an mpg-file (especially the segment where Lisa, the wiz kid, is haunted by the evil Lord Montyvort) From meckelburg at foni.net Wed Oct 31 12:29:39 2001 From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:29:39 -0000 Subject: The torn bag problem. In-Reply-To: <130.3d34cce.29113573@aol.com> Message-ID: <9roqrj+hqe8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28519 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Calypso8604 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/31/01 2:01:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, > morsethanatos at y... writes: > > > > First of all how do they > > replace/fix these things? > > > > *grins* Spellotape. No, seriously though they *are* magic....I'm sure if > people are able transfigure their friends into badgers and make broomsticks > come to you, then they can fix a bag > > ~ Calypso > > > Delurking after a few months :) I don't think it is that easy to fix a bag with magic alone. Otherwise Lupin's clothes could easily look good as new and Ron wouldn't complain about having old, used and damaged things!! Mecki - good to be back on the list!! From a0cruk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 31 13:22:33 2001 From: a0cruk at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?a=20r?=) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:22:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Lupin's Potion Message-ID: <20011031132233.94825.qmail@web20408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28520 I'm new on this list so please forgive me if this has been mentioned before! I've just been listening to POA for about the millionth time and something that has struck me every time is: When Harry is visiting Lupin in his office (while the others are on the first trip to Hogsmeade)Snap delivers a goblet of potion. Why does Lupin so pointedly mention that it is a shame that sugar makes the potion useless? I didn't see that detail as being in any way relevant unless it is a clue for a future storyline... Have I missed something? Ashley ____________________________________________________________ Nokia Game is on again. Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new all media adventure before November 3rd. From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 31 13:31:48 2001 From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie ) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:31:48 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Potion In-Reply-To: <20011031132233.94825.qmail@web20408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9roug4+4tur@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28521 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., a r wrote: > Why does Lupin so pointedly mention that it is a shame that sugar > makes the potion useless? I didn't see that detail as being in any > way relevant unless it is a clue for a future storyline... Have I > missed something? I don't think you've missed anything, I think it's just that the potion tastes horrible and he'd like to add sugar but can't that's all. Sofie From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Oct 31 14:26:56 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:26:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who would be your best friend? In-Reply-To: <9rooh4+opt3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011031142656.6353.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28522 Sofie wrote: Message-ID: <20011031150320.53601.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28523 --- a r wrote: > When Harry is visiting Lupin in his office (while > the > others are on the first trip to Hogsmeade)Snap > delivers a goblet of potion. Why does Lupin so > pointedly mention that it is a shame that sugar > makes > the potion useless? I didn't see that detail as > being > in any way relevant unless it is a clue for a future > storyline... Have I missed something? It's possible this is a clue for a future storyline. However, I take the quote at face value. Sugar would ruin the potion. He makes this comment presumeably because the potion tastes bad and he wishes he could put some sugar in it to make it taste better. Szabina ===== >^..^< Dogs have owners. Cats have servants >^..^< >^..^< The ancient Egyptians worshipped cats. Cats have never forgetten this. >^..^< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From alexp at alltel.net Wed Oct 31 15:56:13 2001 From: alexp at alltel.net (alexp at alltel.net) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:56:13 -0000 Subject: JKR Message-ID: <9rp6ut+3s5h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28524 Semi-OT I read in a chat that Joanne Rowling DOES NOT have a middle name. The initial K was added to make a easy-rolling pen name of sorts. She said she hates the name Kathleen, and that JK Rowling just fits better on a book cover, and she had no say in it. I also agree weith a theory posted earlier about wormtail, in hte debt of Harry, procuring the blood for V, V therefore becoming in the debt of Harry. Alex FLARES S.L.A.S.S. Sirius lovers against stupid snape From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 16:00:56 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (Magpie) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:00:56 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <8c.eb5a509.290f7399@aol.com> Message-ID: <9rp77o+fa6e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28525 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > HOGWARTS TEXTBOOKS > > > Questions: > > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) * Wizarding Throughout the World, by Vanna TraVell > > 2. Do you suppose the Hogwarts textbooks are like ours nowadays, with chapter units and comprehension questions, and an annotated teachers' edition? Or are they different? * I'd think that Hogwarts professors wouldn't need annotated copies (pictures Snape seething at the very thought). I think they'd be more along the lines of informational texts. That way the students can use them as reference later in life (though what you'd reference in Lockhart's books for I've no idea). > > 3. How do you think the choosing process works at Hogwarts? Obviously, Lockhart was able to demand that his students buy all his books, but surely other professors, such as Snape and Sprout, would have to coordinate their choices? Does Dumbledore have a say in it? * I'd bet that all textbooks have to be approved by Dumbledore, but since he's rather a free spirit, his approval process is quite open. Just think of Hagrid's book that bit back, or the books on Invisibility the bookstore owner never found.... > > 4. Wizards seem to write their books based on field experience. Are there fields in which one doesn't need experience to compile a textbook? * Oh, absolutely! Look at all the books muggles publish with no thought whatsoever. I'd say many types of textbooks could be complied by wizards that are not experts in their field. Guides to Magical creatures (complied from research rather than experience), Dark Arts (ditto; just look at what happened to poor Quirrell when he tried to go out in the field) and Spells (I'm thinking a textbook based on someone's personal Book of Shadows). And BTW, I figured that it would take a magical bookcase to hold all those books on magic! ;) Thanks for the fabulous post!! - Denise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From magpie1112 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 16:33:35 2001 From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (Magpie) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:33:35 -0000 Subject: FLARES (FLeur Appreciation & REcognition Society) In-Reply-To: <9rnnrh+8abr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rp94v+djk9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28526 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "jenny from ravenclaw" wrote: > Tuesday, October 30, 2001, 7:50:58 AM, Amy Z wrote: > > > > AZ> I am about ready to start a Fleur Defense League, and I don't > even *like* AZ> her.> > > Dave H responded: > > You can sign me up, Amy, though I go a bit beyond you -- I *do* like her! ... * Count me in on FLARES! I have to say that Fleur isn't exactly the sweetest creature in the universe, but what 17-year-old girl is? Expecially one who is so obviously beautiful *and* smart? She's got to be near the top of her class to be selected from so many. Fleur has probably just takes the adulation that she gets and really never thought of it any other way. She just hasn't had anything happen to her to make her consider (i.e., grow up). Doesn't make her a bad person; perhaps a bit emotionally stunted, but not bad. As for Fleur calling Harry a "boy" and dissing Ron; I know I didn't give 14 year old boys the time of day when I was 17. I was much too mature and womanly to waste my time on little ones. ;) And I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt that way. She gets my thumbs-up for her loyalty to her sister. My heart almost broke when Fleur becomes hysterical at the thought of her sister being harmed in any way. *And* she chastises herself after she gets points for her performance in the Second Task ("I deserved zero" said Fleur throatily....) That speaks of loyalty, and a sense of justice. If we see more of Fleur in later books, I'm sure her character will become even more defined. Sorry to go against you on this one John. I'm usually behind you 100%. We will have to agree to disagree. Friends? - Denise From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Oct 31 18:11:30 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:11:30 -0000 Subject: Who would be your best friend? In-Reply-To: <9rooh4+opt3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rpesi+9735@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28527 Fred and George, definitely. They're easy going but fiercely loyal. I also have the impression that they'll 'tell it like it is' to you. I could tolerate the jokes (and maybe participate in some of them). I guess they appeal to my juvenile deliquent side. For adult friends, I think McGonagall and Molly. I wouldn't mind having a good gossip with either of them. From bray.262 at osu.edu Wed Oct 31 13:11:02 2001 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:11:02 EST5EDT Subject: Who would you like to date and why?? Message-ID: <47A2656D86@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 28528 Fred and George. Both of them at the same time. :-) And, adult-wise, I'd pick Lupin. Dunno...something about him. JK said Black was drop dead sexy...I'm hoping she's made Lupin rather hot, too. He is in my mind, anyway. Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements For America means a bit more than tall towers, It means more than wealth or political powers, It's more than our enemies ever could guess, So may God bless America! Bless us! God bless! From aiz24 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 18:16:23 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:16:23 -0500 Subject: textbooks - marooned Dursleys - TR - Cho - Snape - Colors - Weird Sisters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28529 Edis wrote: >So there was in theory professional discretion for individual teachers to >chose books for a class each year. Now in the real world school budgets get >in the way of letting this freedom run wild.. and teachers would use what >was available... but for British readers having teachers select the years >books for a class will have a slightly familiar if now old- >fashioned ring. This is the way American private schools work also, and Hogwarts corresponds to these rather than to public schools, whose textbooks are frequently chosen by the school board. >Dursleys getting back to the land Welcome, Karen. I just love the subject line--I pictured Vernon and Petunia in denim overalls, plowing up their little plot to grow their own produce. Petunia putting things by for the winter . . . Dudley keeping bees . . . Sorry, this isn't answering your question (which has come up here recently). Tabouli wrote: >What of Tom, anyway? Didn't his witch mother >have relatives to take care of him? (*His* entire family obviously >couldn't have been wiped out >by Voldemort!) A lot of it was! tillrules wrote: >2) Cho Chang: I really like her a lot. I think the backlash against her >is undeserved for the most part since she's never been anything but nice to >Harry. She doesn't come close to making my faves list, but hear, hear! Thanks too to Tabouli for defending Cho, who lets Harry down as nicely as anyone could do (what, would we like her better if she ditched her date?). and: >He seems too me to be a vindictive man who's still nursing his schoolboy >grudges (to the point of endangering the Trio's lives in the Shack) years >later. This I don't see. How does he endanger the Trio's lives? Sirius's and Lupin's, yes. Brave person for putting Lupin on your don't-like list. Me, I love angst. brian7b wrote: >do the colors of the robes mean anythibng? Green is often associated with evil, it seems to me, though maybe I'm just thinking of the Lady in the Green Kirtle (Jadis, too?) in C. S. Lewis. Red=royalty. The color symbolism is pretty mixed just with these two, though. Harry's eyes are Slytherin green while Voldemort's are Gryffindor red . . . Anyone want to comment on canary yellow, blue, and black? I wrote: >IIRC, theres a famous Quidditch player (female) whose son (male ) plays >in the Weird Sisters. Am I hallucinating? I checked, and I wasn't. She plays for the Pride of Portree and her son is lead guitarist for the WS. To me, the name Weird Sisters does suggest the core of the band is two or more sisters, but the rest could be anyone. Amy Z ---------------------------------------------- Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion by turning into a large canary. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Oct 31 18:17:40 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:17:40 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Whom would you like to date, and why? References: <9roegp+hme5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3BE04044.9070505@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 28530 Hi -- Okay, I'll chime in on this fun topic. If I were something less than half my age () and single (which, at that age, presumably I would be): Harry. No question about it. The sensitive but strong, scrappy but vulnerable Harry would be it for me. Yes, definitely. :--) Looking amongst the ranks a bit closer to my age & disregarding my Slytherin husband who looks alot like Draco, I'd go for Sirius, with Remus running a close second. I'm not so sure about that once-a-month problem Remus has. Sirius, on the other hand, was drawn by the author to be "dead sexy" so ....yes, he wins my vote. Sorry Snape-fans, but no way on the greasy-haired Potions Master. Thumbs down on that one. I think I'd pass on Bill Weasley too as redheads don't do much for me. He sounds like he'd be lots of fun though. Penny From golden_faile at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 18:33:24 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:33:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <47A2656D86@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <20011031183324.79070.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28531 --- Rachel Bray wrote: > Fred and George. Both of them at the same time. > :-) > > MMM, MMM, MMM, Naughty, Naughty!!! I wish I would have thought of that first. Laila __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From lucy at luphen.co.uk Wed Oct 31 18:36:26 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:36:26 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three least favourite and three favourite characters. References: Message-ID: <004701c1623b$01549f00$52ae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28532 Least favourite: 1. Lockhart - stupid prat! 2. Lucius Malfoy 3. Drace Malfoy Most favourite (not counting HRH) 1. Hagrid 2. Lupin 3. Ginny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sparklin_red at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 18:41:09 2001 From: sparklin_red at yahoo.com (Jules Jay) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: In Defense of Hagrid Message-ID: <20011031184109.67520.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28533 ::Sneaks out of the Shadows:: First of all I have to give Jenny credit for being able to say that she doesnt like Hagrid. Now thats out of the way, on to defending Hagrid. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't like Hagrid - there, it's out. I find him annoying and irresponsible. I hated the way he handled the situation with Norbert and how Ron got hurt and Harry and Hermione got in so much trouble to protect Hagrid and his mistake. I'm not crazy about his drinking, especially when he should be sharp for his CoMC class, not hung over. I don't appreciate his love of all creatures dangerous. Those Blast Ended Skrewts were nasty and not tended to well at all. He also should have known better than to talk to Rita Skeeter, especially because he knew she wasn't supposed to be on the grounds of Hogwarts (Dumbledore's orders, no less) to begin with. I'm not saying that I think Hagrid is a bad guy; I don't think that. I just don't think he should teach at Hogwarts and I think he is way too dependent on HRH to help get him out of jams. He makes bad decisions and when your job is to watch out for KIDS I don't like it all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The one thing that most people dont recall (Basically because it is only 1 line out of all the lines in the 4 books and this fact is only mentioned once) is the reason why the old Care of Magical Creature Teacher retired. "Well, I am sorry to tell you that Professor Kettleburn, our Care of Magical Creatures teacher, retired at the end of last year in order to enjoy more time with his remaining limbs." PoA, Ch. 5 Dumbledore. So that line shows the creatures he or she used in class were not that safe either. If a CoMC teacher were to only teach the students about non-harmful creatures then you run into the problem why did Dumbledore bring Moody in? Moody was there to show the students what the curses actually felt like not just how to defend against it. So what Hagrid is trying to teach the students is not just from the book on the more dangerous creatures. He is also trying to show the students how that creature acts in a situation and how to actually deal with that situation. Two more things then I will return to the shadows. After the students experience with the skrewts, do you think any of them will do any illegal breeding. In my opinion I think not, but that's just my opinion. Last one. Hargid is one of my least favorite characters. Why am I defending him then? I just can't stand to see any character even one of my least favorite be dislike without all the facts being considered. I am sure Jenny took these into account before she made her decision. But, to me there is still something that is just not right about Hagrid. I mean other than the fact that he's annoying. ::Returns to the Shadows:: Red ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." Dumbledore ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Oct 31 19:11:07 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:11:07 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue Message-ID: <9rpicb+p7ak@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28534 Good article. Better than the one Newsweek put out. There's book 5 spoilery info about Hagrid. And there's some Movie spoilers too. Spoiler Warning. Two of the biggest spoilers are: 1. No Peeves. 2. We don't see Ron's Mirror of Erised image. End Spoilers. Milz. From lucy at luphen.co.uk Wed Oct 31 19:11:59 2001 From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:11:59 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? References: <20011031005713.70550.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010101c1623f$f2874ea0$52ae1e3e@StephenDawson> No: HPFGUIDX 28535 --- Andrea wrote: > > pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > After all those musings about favourite > > characters, I'd really like > > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters > > would you want to > > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but > > then, who cares)? > > I would go for Lupin - he's intelligent and knowledgable, and the picture of him asleep on the train I have in my mind is so cute - all tired and ill, and threadbare clothes. It makes me want to take him home and feed him up and cuddle him! (and if this doesn't get censored, if we were both werewolves it could be quite fun every so often too!!!) Lucy, L.O.O.N S.I.N.I.S.T.E.R Is there a Lupin fan club acronym I can join? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 31 19:59:24 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:59:24 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue In-Reply-To: <9rpicb+p7ak@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rpl6s+tmh0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28536 Milz wrote: > > There's book 5 spoilery info about Hagrid. And there's some Movie > spoilers too. > Milz, don't leave me hanging! What is the Book 5 spoiler stuff? (I think I can guess, but tell me anyway -- with the appropriate heading and spoiler space). Cindy From joym999 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 20:10:53 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (Joywitch M. Curmudgeon) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:10:53 -0000 Subject: Golf Balls, was Re: Chapter Summaries In-Reply-To: <9rhrcm+ikff@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rplsd+nkhb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28537 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > wrote: > > > 2. Where does Wood get a bunch of golf balls? > > > > I think Wood has no idea that they ARE golf balls, only that they > > are what Madam Hooch uses for training Seekers. Madam Hooch may not > > know anything about golf either, but merely be following what > > generations of Quidditch coaches did before her. It may be part of > > her job to conjure up golf balls or transfigure something into > > golf balls, or it may be part of her job to order them from a > > supplier. [etc.] > > I think there is a more rudimentary explanation. If Hogwarts is > near/in Scotland, it would be little matter to obtain old golf balls > from nearby golf courses, regardless of how much commerce most > Wizards have with Muggles. There would be no need for a special > supplier, since many courses gather dinged-up stray balls to sell.... I think there's an even more rudimentary explanation. According to my copy of "A History of Magic," by Bathilda Bagshot: Quidditch became more and more popular during the 15th century, especially in what is now called Great Britain. It was so popular that wizards and witches did not want to stop playing after dark. They did not want to attract muggle attention by lighting the thousands of candles necessary to illuminate an entire Quidditch pitch, but they found that it was near impossible to see the small, elusive Golden Snitch at night. An inventor named Zacharias Potter made his family's fortune with his invention of the "snowy snitch," a small, inexpensive round white ball which could be charmed to behave somewhat like a snitch, but was much easier to see. These balls are still used today, particularly for nighttime Quidditch practice. Many of these Quidditch practice balls have been lost over the centuries. It is rumored that the muggle game of "golf" has its roots in 15-century Scotland, where a muggle coming upon a lost snowy snitch accidently hit it with a stick and was surprised to find how well it seemed to "fly" across a field. Since muggles can not, of course, perform even the most rudimentary charms, they are satisfied with the rather dismal sport of knocking balls about with sticks and watching them fall into holes in the ground. --Joywitch From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 20:17:09 2001 From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (Michelle) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:17:09 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue In-Reply-To: <9rpl6s+tmh0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rpm85+ksfd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28538 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cindy C." wrote: > Milz wrote: > > > > > There's book 5 spoilery info about Hagrid. And there's some Movie > > spoilers too. > > > > Milz, don't leave me hanging! What is the Book 5 spoiler stuff? (I > think I can guess, but tell me anyway -- with the appropriate heading > and spoiler space). > > Cindy http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011105- 181593,00.html ok, so you'll have to cut and paste because I lack the computer skills to make it blue and connected! :) Michelle :) From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 20:10:40 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:10:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR References: <9rp6ut+3s5h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001701c16248$1d4e4280$e500a8c0@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 28539 Alex said, > I read in a chat that Joanne Rowling DOES NOT have a middle name. The > initial K was added to make a easy-rolling pen name of sorts. She > said she hates the name Kathleen, and that JK Rowling just fits > better on a book cover, and she had no say in it. My search turned up a quote that was a tad more positive. Here's an excerpt from Jo's interview with Comic Relief: > Is JK Rowling your real name or is it your 'writers' name? > > My real name is Joanne Rowling. My publishers wanted > another initial, so I gave myself my favourite grandmother's > name as a middle name, 'Kathleen' So at least her favorite grandmother got in on the action ... That's http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/transcript3.shtml Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery...." From eccleston at clara.co.uk Wed Oct 31 20:39:38 2001 From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:39:38 -0000 Subject: Age certificate for film in uk Message-ID: <9rpnia+70cv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28540 Hopefully a simple question (but important given the ages of my kids): what certificate will the film have in the UK? Thanks Steve From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 31 21:17:17 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:17:17 +0000 Subject: MOVIE: Age certificate for film in uk In-Reply-To: <9rpnia+70cv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28541 eccleston at clara.co.uk wrote: > Hopefully a simple question (but important given the ages of my > kids): what certificate will the film have in the UK? > > Thanks > > Steve Don't forget -- today is the last day for Movie-related posts on this list :D Head over to www.hpfgu.co.uk/movie to sign up! Oh, and the film will be PG in the UK for "scary scenes", IIRC. --John ____________________________________________ When the dark comes rising, six shall turn it back; Three from the circle, three from the track; Wood, bronze, iron, water, fire, stone; Five will return and one go alone. --Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" sequence John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 31 21:21:26 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:21:26 +0000 Subject: ADMIN: New HPFGU Website Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28542 That's right! Roll up, roll up! Actually, there's not much there at the moment -- we're working on it, though. The cool thing I just wanted to share with all of you is that, with the help of Joysie Elf, I've set up some shorter URLs for certain things. They will automatically redirect you to the appropriate place: www.hpfgu.org.uk/ www.hpfgu.org.uk/mainlist -- the HPforGrownups list www.hpfgu.org.uk/otchatter -- the OTChatter list www.hpfgu.org.uk/movie -- the Movie list www.hpfgu.org.uk/welcome -- the Welcome Message www.hpfgu.org.uk/files -- the Files Section www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin -- the Admin Files www.hpfgu.org.uk/vfaq -- the Very Frequently Asked Questions file www.hpfgu.org.uk/netiquette -- the Netiquette file If there are any others that you feel we should add, or if you have any suggestions at all for the website, please don't hesitate to drop me an email at john at walton.vu, that's john AT walton DOT vu for those of you on webmail, where YahGroops mangles email addresses :) Cheers folks, --John ____________________________________________ Remember: Socks then Shoes. John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 31 21:26:00 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:26:00 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue In-Reply-To: <9rpicb+p7ak@eGroups.com> References: <9rpicb+p7ak@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <15458453987.20011031132600@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28543 (Note -- I've cross-posted this to the movie List so the conversation can resume there after today...) Wednesday, October 31, 2001, 11:11:07 AM, Milz wrote: M> Spoiler Warning. M> Two of the biggest spoilers are: M> 1. No Peeves. M> 2. We don't see Ron's Mirror of Erised image. 3. I think the fact the we're only going to get the first half of the Norbert saga is significant: Will they leave it hanging how thet get rid of him? What does this foreshadow about the overall smoothness of the film's continuity? Will we be able to *tell* that the movie was trimmed from four hours down to 2-1/2?? -- Dave From rafe at bigfoot.com Wed Oct 31 21:37:12 2001 From: rafe at bigfoot.com (Rafe) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:37:12 -0000 Subject: How powerful is/ will Harry as wizard? Message-ID: <9rpqu8+2nvv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28544 I apologise if this has been dsicussed before (although in the time I've lurked some things seem to come up frequently :) I was wondering just how powerful is Harry and how powerful will he become as the story develops? At first glance it does seem that Harry is anything special - Hermione top of the class, he can't even do the levitation spell. Then there potions which he nevers seem to be great at. He seems reltaively keen to copy homework of Hermione. However there is contrasting evidence... it seems that Ron is the one always that little been more keen for help, and in GOF although he gets his friends to help with the Tasks (although even then its limited) he does seem to be doing what homework he has on his own. In relation to the tasks he seems to be a hard worker (puller an all nighter in the library!). Also we dont know how he would have done in the exams. Not having the hcampions doing the exams was a cunning way of us not be able to compare Harry with his classmastes. Aside from this there several points in the text that suggest he's reasonable powerful: 1) Learning to Patronus (many grown wizards can't do it) 2) Resisting Imperious 3) Cruciatas (sp?) does effect him, but as much as others? (This is MoldyVoldy doing the casting remember). 4) A rather impressive long disatnce summoning chalm. 5) Banishing chalm (to his urprise his cushions landed on top of Hermione's) 6) Voldemort and Priori Incatem - he forced Voldemort' wand to give up its spell - seems like a power contest almost. I sure some others can pick out other incidences. Whats this suggest to me is there is a certain amount of latent power. He's has a lot of Magical Ability to draw on. Compare say IQ - you can have a high IQ but not fully utuilise till your trained. Simarly (but at an older age with Wizards?) i can see Harry having a higher MIQ rating? Quetsions 1) Will we see his power develop further? 2) Will this be obvious, or is Harry going to get 'scret' extra training. In a related matter how will this be expressed? Could he be good at dueling - will we see dueling making a come back - a step up in preparing everuone for dark times? Rafe From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 21:37:51 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:37:51 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Potion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28545 In a message dated 10/31/01 8:25:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, a0cruk at yahoo.co.uk writes: > When Harry is visiting Lupin in his office (while the > others are on the first trip to Hogsmeade)Snap > delivers a goblet of potion. Why does Lupin so > pointedly mention that it is a shame that sugar makes > the potion useless? I didn't see that detail as being > in any way relevant unless it is a clue for a future > storyline... Have I missed something? I believe it was a hint that Snape isn't bad and didn't have bad intentions with the potion. A joke lightens it up a bit ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rafe at bigfoot.com Wed Oct 31 21:43:15 2001 From: rafe at bigfoot.com (Rafe) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:43:15 -0000 Subject: Prefects Speculation (Harry Turns it Down or Gets Something Else) Message-ID: <9rpr9j+nbsa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28546 There has been a fair amount of speculation about Prefects. It trouble times ahead I see the prefects as patrolling the castle to keep an eye on things checking nothing untoward is going on. This I guess already happens, but will become more important. a) Can Dumbledore put Harry at risk by doing this? b) Can he afford not to, wouldn't everyone need to see Harry doign it so they are not afraid.. Harry as a prefect seems likely if only because he is the Hero but couldn't he turn it down (enough attention, things on his plate as it is?). Perhaps he could be involved in otherways for example I can see som sort of student defence patrol thing being formed, which he then heads up in some way. It seems that there's a possibility for Harry not to be a prefect but still have responsibility. Above is one possibility - how about being being with OoP business/ tarining? It seems almost certain that Hermione will become a prefect - good grades is a criteria, but so is characters. Some people have mentioned rule rbreaking as a problem - didn't seem to be a problem for James and Lily did it? Enough of my rmabling - I'll contribute again it anyone interested in this! Rafe From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 21:43:11 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:43:11 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Message-ID: <89.e3b2a4a.2911ca6f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28547 In a message dated 10/31/01 11:02:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, alexp at alltel.net writes: > I read in a chat that Joanne Rowling DOES NOT have a middle name. The > initial K was added to make a easy-rolling pen name of sorts. She > said she hates the name Kathleen, and that JK Rowling just fits > better on a book cover, and she had no say in it. > She used Kathleen in honor of her grandmother. It's illegal for a publishing company to not let an author have say in their pen names. ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 21:58:17 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:58:17 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28548 S P O I L E R S P A C E In a message dated 10/31/01 2:17:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, absinthe at mad.scientist.com writes: > 1. No Peeves. WHAT!?!? They can't take out Peeves! He makes some of the scenes happen! And I thought they cast some guy for his part and everything! ~Calypso who will extremely disappointed if there is no Peeves [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 22:03:11 2001 From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (Michelle) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:03:11 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rpsev+5hdt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28549 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Calypso8604 at a... wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > P > A > C > E > > > In a message dated 10/31/01 2:17:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, > absinthe at m... writes: > > > > 1. No Peeves. > > WHAT!?!? They can't take out Peeves! He makes some of the scenes happen! And > I thought they cast some guy for his part and everything! > > ~Calypso who will extremely disappointed if there is no Peeves > > > You know, if they take out Peeves ... who is going to say "wee ickle firsties"? Michelle ;) From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 31 22:05:54 2001 From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:05:54 -0000 Subject: Who would you like to date and why??/top and bottom 3 /best friend? In-Reply-To: <010101c1623f$f2874ea0$52ae1e3e@StephenDawson> Message-ID: <9rpsk2+vc1c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28550 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lucy Austin" wrote: > --- Andrea wrote: > > > pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > > After all those musings about favourite > > > characters, I'd really like > > > to ask everybody a question: Who of the characters > > > would you want to > > > date and why (I know this is a bit indiscreet, but > > > then, who cares)? > > > > Lucy: > > I would go for Lupin - he's intelligent and knowledgable, and the picture of him asleep on the train I have in my mind is so cute - all tired and ill, and threadbare clothes. It makes me want to take him home and feed him up and cuddle him! > > Me, I totally agree with you! Not only is he intelligent and knowledgeable--things that I totally adore with some guys--he's also very kind to those who are often trod apon by others (eg. Neville). And I guess I also feel sympathy (not pity since I know he also has strength to get through almost anything) for him...Not that I turn into a blood-thirsty monster every month but I have this thing about hiding what I feel--well sometimes--ok a lot of times. He would be my perfect date--if he wasn't more than double my age--but if he was the same as he was when he was in Hogwarts and I was there too, I'd be a VERY happy person. > Is there a Lupin fan club acronym I can join? Yeah is there any out there? Hello? I'd gladly empty out half my Gringott's account for that Now there is also another question on 3 favorite and 3 least favorite characters...Now I racked my brain the whole day...never really even got through today's posts yet but I do want to get them down. I love a bunch of characters so I have more than one in each rank: 1st place: Harry (we spend so much time with him in all the books, I couldn't help liking him), Remus (hey I said I wished to date him--or his younger self--if I was at Hogwarts in the MWPP times), Sirius (the "lovable stray" :)), and Dumbledore. 2nd place: Hermione, Ron, Fred and George 3rd place: Hagrid, Arthur Weasley I don't have many characters I dislike but here they are anyways my 3 least favorite are: 1st place: Lucius Malfoy (too evil for my liking--and he's a horrible example for Draco--me I feel neutral for Draco-Draco never did anything TRULY evil yet) 2nd place: Gilderoy Lockhart (IMHO he is really annoying) 3rd place: Peter Pettigrew (there's some things that I dislike and I particularly dislike traitors--but I guess he still has a chance to redeem himself) The person who is most likely to be my best friend in the book would either be Lupin or Hermione because I could understand both of them-- and they could probably understand me too (wishful thinking, wishful thinking). Sharlene (who wishes she could find a companion as kind and intelligent as Remus) From Calypso8604 at aol.com Wed Oct 31 22:10:44 2001 From: Calypso8604 at aol.com (Calypso8604 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:10:44 EST Subject: [HPforGrownups] How powerful is/ will Harry as wizard? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28551 You're forgetting something on his list of magical achievements....His strange Divination-like power. He has dreams of things really happening....Remember the beginning of GoF? ~ Calypso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 22:15:31 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:15:31 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue In-Reply-To: <15458453987.20011031132600@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9rpt63+57fj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28552 SPOILER WARNING > > > > > M> 1. No Peeves. > M> 2. We don't see Ron's Mirror of Erised image. > > 3. I think the fact the we're only going to get the first half of the > Norbert saga is significant: Will they leave it hanging how thet get > rid of him? What does this foreshadow about the overall smoothness > of the film's continuity? Will we be able to *tell* that the movie > was trimmed from four hours down to 2-1/2?? > Columbus says it wasn't trimmed from 4, and the TIME mag says the rest of the norbert scene wasn't even shot. I had a strong suspicion this would be what they cut - it's a slihtly clunky storyline, there seems a host of other ways around it, and while you can draw it out and use all other kinds of plot devices in a book, I'm sure Kloves found some other ways to shorten the 'getting the trio to be in the forest for the unicorn thing' and 'lose points for gryffindor' storyline. Remember the filch photo - it's the trio + neville, which means ron got detention, too. Eh. who knows. not much longer to wait. m. > -- > Dave From mellienel2 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 22:16:29 2001 From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:16:29 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9rpt7t+bdvc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28553 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Calypso8604 at a... wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > P > A > C > E > > > In a message dated 10/31/01 2:17:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, > absinthe at m... writes: > > > > 1. No Peeves. > > WHAT!?!? They can't take out Peeves! He makes some of the scenes happen! And > I thought they cast some guy for his part and everything! > > ~Calypso who will extremely disappointed if there is no Peeves > Perhaps he's not in this one but will be in others? If he's not in any it will put an end to a lot of rumor lines about the 7 books...hrm.... .m > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bak42 at netzero.net Wed Oct 31 22:22:09 2001 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:22:09 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts Textbooks In-Reply-To: <9rp77o+fa6e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c1625a$81f859c0$c5789e40@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 28554 > > Questions: > > 1. If you were writing a wizarding textbook, what would yours be called, and what would your pen name be? (You can write several; heck, Lockhart did.) How to Manipulate the Weather by Raine Fall And because somebody mentioned that a guide to Quodpot was needed A Comprehensive History of Quodpot by Jacques Strapp ---------------------------------------------------------- Brandon 73% Obsessed with Harry Potter Earth: Mostly harmless --The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy "You know," said Ron, whose hair was on end because of all the times he had run his fingers through it in frustration, "I think it's back to the old Divination standby." "What -- make it up?" --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 22:37:59 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:37:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FLARES (FLeur Appreciation & REcognition Society) In-Reply-To: <9rp94v+djk9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011031223759.81241.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28555 In justice to Fleur I got the impression he'd been nearly overwhelmed by a number of grindylows and had to be rescued, she didn't just give up. In fact she's fighting tooth and nail to get back in the water, frantic to rescue her little sister. And she is becomingly grateful to Harry and even Ron for saving Gabrielle. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 23:05:23 2001 From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:05:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would you like to date and why?? In-Reply-To: <159.3440942.2910b3ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011031230523.32345.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28556 Snape, definitely Snape. He's mysterious, intriguing and badly in need of a little affection. Tough love of course; "Oh do stop grizzling over James Potter, Severus, it was fifteen years ago and he's dead! Give Remus Lupin a chance, okay he's a werewolf but let's face it, Severus, are you in any position to throw stones? As for Sirius Black, well you're both grown men, for heavens sake start acting like it!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 31 23:09:51 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:09:51 -0000 Subject: How powerful is/ will Harry as wizard? In-Reply-To: <9rpqu8+2nvv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rq0bv+2del@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28557 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rafe" wrote: > Aside from this there several points in the text that suggest he's > reasonable powerful: > > 1) Learning to Patronus (many grown wizards can't do it) > 2) Resisting Imperious > 3) Cruciatas (sp?) does effect him, but as much as others? (This is > MoldyVoldy doing the casting remember). > 4) A rather impressive long disatnce summoning chalm. > 5) Banishing chalm (to his urprise his cushions landed on top of > Hermione's) > 6) Voldemort and Priori Incatem - he forced Voldemort' wand to give > up its spell - seems like a power contest almost. > Add: 7) Harry's ability to fly well. 8) Harry's ability to handle Buckbeak. We can compare this list of Harry's magical strengths with a list of magical areas for potential improvement (aka weaknesses): 1. Has trouble with his Confusing Concoction. 2. Doesn't "See" very well in Trelawney's class (although he was on the money in his exam in which he saw Buckbeak flying away). 3. Doesn't seem to do as well as Hermione in transfiguration (only Hermione could change her tea kettle into a turtle). 4. His shield charm could use some work. Then there are areas where we don't have much information, like Herbology. >Whats this suggest > to me is there is a certain amount of latent power. Agreed! So far, Harry seems ahead of the game. Cindy From ChibiKimiTsukino at aol.com Wed Oct 31 23:14:41 2001 From: ChibiKimiTsukino at aol.com (ChibiKimiTsukino at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:14:41 EST Subject: Lily Potter Message-ID: <15f.32a5d28.2911dfe1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28558 I was reading a fic and the last paragraph of it I though was somthing that was really well written so I am pasting it here for others to see. The fic is called Opposites Attract by Alanna: Out of their love, Voldemort was defeated. Out of Lily?s undying love -- a love that she showed when she was a fourth-year, a love that she harbored for over ten years, unrequited love if you will, but love (despite being unrequited) that never changed from the moment of its realization, a love that appeared once again when she was thirty, her face older but still holding the joyful look that shone clear when she saw James in America ? for James, her undying love for her son, a baby boy defeated the most powerful wizard the world had ever know. Where would the world be, if not for Lily Potter? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cynthiaanncoe at home.com Wed Oct 31 23:27:00 2001 From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (Cindy C.) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:27:00 -0000 Subject: Lagging in Transfiguration? Message-ID: <9rq1c4+86rk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28559 I was listening to PoA (yes, again!), and it occurred to me that our trio and their classmates don't know a great deal of useful transfiguration, even though they are more than half way through their wizarding training. Indeed, Harry got through all three tasks in GoF without a single bit of transfiguration. I don't have my books with me right now, but I think the most complex thing they have done is change a tea kettle into a turtle, and only Hermione seems to have done it correctly. It seems to me that transfiguration is a Huge Big Deal in the wizarding world. We see powerful wizards conjur things out of thin air (which I assume is transfiguration), such as Sirius conjuring manacles and Dumbledore conjuring chairs. Transfiguration is necessary to become an animagus, of course, and I assume it plays a role in Apparating. Are the students far behind in Transfiguration, and if so, why? Cindy (who hopes the students are good at multi-tasking so that they can get up to scratch on magic while fending off dark wizards at the same time) From john at walton.vu Wed Oct 31 23:32:03 2001 From: john at walton.vu (John Walton) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:32:03 +0000 Subject: Clarification: ADMIN: New HPFGU Website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 28560 I'm sorry, I forgot that not everybody on the list is on the same wavelength as me. Let me clarify what this new website means :) The www.hpfgu.org.uk website will be a helpful resource *in addition to* the HPFGU lists, not as a replacement for them :) Think of it as a more user-friendly Files Section, perhaps -- we will be able to group bits of the club's documents together in ways Yahoo won't allow -- i.e. we will be able to link to the Recommended Reading (in the Database Section of Yahoo) at the same time as we link to something in the Files Section at Yahoo. Also, we will be able to refer to documents like the VFAQ with much shorter, easy-to-remember URLS (aka "links"): www.hpfgu.org.uk/vfaq instead of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/Files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.html Basically, click on the new www.hpfgu.org.uk/vfaq link and be magically redirected to the VFAQ file, which is still based in the Files Section, but which now has a much shorter link. This works the same with the VFAQ and Welcome File. Plus, these new redirect addresses won't need to be reconstructed when they go over one line long :) As far as the bits which say "list" below, they redirect to the Yahoo Groups page of the list in question. Why would you go here? Well, to post if you're on Webview and can't be bothered to type out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/ to get to Announcements, just type out www.hpfgu.org.uk/announcements and you'll be magically redirected right to the Announcements group. It works the same with the other links. Try them out! www.hpfgu.org.uk/ www.hpfgu.org.uk/mainlist -- the HPforGrownups list www.hpfgu.org.uk/otchatter -- the OTChatter list www.hpfgu.org.uk/movie -- the Movie list www.hpfgu.org.uk/welcome -- the Welcome Message www.hpfgu.org.uk/files -- the Files Section www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin -- the Admin Files www.hpfgu.org.uk/vfaq -- the Very Frequently Asked Questions file www.hpfgu.org.uk/netiquette -- the Netiquette file Any other questions? Ask away :) ____________________________________________ "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." John Walton -- john at walton.vu ____________________________________________ From dkewpie at pacbell.net Wed Oct 31 23:44:09 2001 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:44:09 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue In-Reply-To: <9rpt63+57fj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rq2c9+5l9a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28561 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > SPOILER WARNING > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M> 1. No Peeves. > > M> 2. We don't see Ron's Mirror of Erised image. > > > > 3. I think the fact the we're only going to get the first half of the > > Norbert saga is significant: Will they leave it hanging how thet > get > > rid of him? What does this foreshadow about the overall > smoothness > > of the film's continuity? Will we be able to *tell* that the movie > > was trimmed from four hours down to 2-1/2?? > > > > Columbus says it wasn't trimmed from 4, and the TIME mag > says the rest of the norbert scene wasn't even shot. I had a > strong suspicion this would be what they cut - it's a slihtly clunky > storyline, there seems a host of other ways around it, and while > you can draw it out and use all other kinds of plot devices in a > book, I'm sure Kloves found some other ways to shorten the > 'getting the trio to be in the forest for the unicorn thing' and 'lose > points for gryffindor' storyline. Remember the filch photo - it's the > trio + neville, which means ron got detention, too. > actually, I think they cut Neville's part in the Forbidden Forest, because there's only the Trio + Draco in all the Forbidden forest scene pix I've seen so far (including that one with Filch, there's no nevile at all). jo From dkewpie at pacbell.net Wed Oct 31 23:47:18 2001 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:47:18 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: TIME Magazine Nov 5. 2001 Issue In-Reply-To: <9rpt63+57fj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9rq2i6+60tk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28562 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: > SPOILER WARNING > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M> 1. No Peeves. > > M> 2. We don't see Ron's Mirror of Erised image. > > > > 3. I think the fact the we're only going to get the first half of the > > Norbert saga is significant: Will they leave it hanging how thet > get > > rid of him? What does this foreshadow about the overall > smoothness > > of the film's continuity? Will we be able to *tell* that the movie > > was trimmed from four hours down to 2-1/2?? > > > > Columbus says it wasn't trimmed from 4, and the TIME mag > says the rest of the norbert scene wasn't even shot. I had a > strong suspicion this would be what they cut - it's a slihtly clunky > storyline, there seems a host of other ways around it, and while > you can draw it out and use all other kinds of plot devices in a > book, I'm sure Kloves found some other ways to shorten the > 'getting the trio to be in the forest for the unicorn thing' and 'lose > points for gryffindor' storyline. Remember the filch photo - it's the > trio + neville, which means ron got detention, too. > actually, I think they cut Neville's part in the Forbidden Forest, because there's only the Trio + Draco in all the Forbidden forest scene pix I've seen so far (including that one with Filch, there's no nevile at all). jo From sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 22:40:37 2001 From: sabin_oo7 at yahoo.com (scott chatten) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:40:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Minerva Not In On Black's Secret In-Reply-To: <9rk7cm+oij2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20011029224037.89360.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 28752 --- "Cindy C." wrote: > Susanna wrote: > > > Emm.. Minerva is a registered animagus. She's also > pretty strict > about rules > > and would definately report Sirius and Dumbledore > knows that. She'd > send Owl > > to Ministry immediately and wouldn't listen > Dumbledore - far less > Harry > > telling her Sirius is innocent, Harry's > Godfather... so she mustn't > know. > > Not until is sure Sirius to get a fair trial > instead of Fudges > immediate > > decision of Dementor's Kiss. > > >Cindy Wrote: > Oh, my! I think I disagree. I'd be shocked if > McGonagal did > something contrary to Dumbledore's plan of keeping > Sirius safe and > tipped off MoM about Sirius. She has never done > anything even > remotely disloyal to Dumbledore so far. It would be > a huge hiccup in > her characterization if she suddenly decided to turn > in Sirius > against Dumbledore's wishes, particularly now that > Voldemort has > returned and Dumbledore needs all the help he can > get. Dumbledore gives out> information on a need-to- > know basis. But I believe he also thinks > things out before he gives anyone information that might get them in trouble. > ___ I couldn't agree more with Cindy. I think that when Dumbledore does tell Minerva she would act about the same as Hermione would. I think that she will be shocked, insulted because he didn't mention it sooner, but wouldn't betray Dumbledore's trust. I can see the comment "Hmph, Men" coming out of her mouth. I also think that with all of the Major law breaking that Dumbledore is doing will result in punishment (possibly Azkaban) but have little basis for that opinion. I think that Minerva would want to jump to conclusions but has demonstrated that she has her wits about her and would take the time to listen to the whole story. Thats what I like about her she is sensible, practical and always looking for a way to help a Gryffindor. Scott __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com