[HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley vs Draco

[tillrules at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 28060

In a message dated 10/19/2001 6:03:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
meboriqua at aol.com writes:

<< Dudley learned at home that it was okay to treat others badly.  Dudley 
 is spoiled to the point that he clearly does not know right from 
 wrong.  What he has learned is that if he cries loud enough or hits 
 hard enough he will get what he wants.  JKR has made it very clear to 
 us that he learned these things from his parents, who are themselves 
 materialistic, impatient, and narrow minded.  Uncle Vernon is vicious 
 to Harry; Dudley has been seeing that since they were both babies.  
 Every single behavior Dudley displays has been learned at home

I can't completely resolve Dudley, though.   Though some of his behaviors 
were learned at home, he has been exposed to the possibility of other 
behaviors.  He may see the bad bahvior of his parents, but he still has a 
choice even at that age to not duplicate it.  He may be spoiled and have bad 
parents, but to me that is not enough of an excuse to absolve him of all 
guilt for being a bully to others (in addition to Harry).

Plus, he's very clearly a child who manipulates his parents.  As you 
mentioned, his crying to get what he wants.   His parents give him everythgn 
he wants and stil he wants more.  JKR is very celar about his gluttony, both 
in the sense of eating and and wanting possessions.  He throws a tantrum 
because he only gets the same number of toys for his birthday as the year 
before.  This personal greed and avarice is not soemthign he learned from his 
parents, but innate.

> On Draco:
  
 >He's out of the house in a place where his father holds very little 
 sway, b/c of Lucius's relationship with Dumbledore, and he does not 
 change.  He has the opportunity to learn new things and interact with 
 others in a way that could overcome whatever racism he learned at 
 home.  But this is not the case.  He goes out of his way to stay the 
 way he is.  
 > 
 Draco is very clearly proud of his father and his ability to affect 
 things as a powerful figure and brags about it a number of times.  In 
 fact, he contacts his father a number of times in the canon to tell 
 him of events happening in the school so his father can act on them 
 (the blast eared skrewts, for example or Buckbeak).     In addition, 
 in a conversation with Harry,  which has no way of returning to his 
 father, Draco is elated at the return of Voldemort.  This is not a kid 
 who is doing things to impress his father or to forestall his father's 
 wrath.  He's simply a bad kid.>
 
 >How is it possible that Draco is "simply a bad kid" without any input 
 from his parents?  I think the same arguments apply to Draco.  His 
 father gives him what he wants and is a DE who flaunts it at home.  He 
 is TEACHING hate to his son.  Draco has learned that living the good 
 life is living the mean life.  I don't see Draco as going "out of his 
 way to stay the way he is", I see him as depending on his father for 
 all the answers.  Dad likes it that way, too.  

>But Draco is 14 years old.  There is the ability, especially when confronted 
with a harsh reality of what he has been taught (i.e.... the death of Cedric 
due to the return of Voldemort), for Draco to learn and maybe grow.  But he 
does not.  He exults in Cedric's death.  He's happy that Voldemort is back so 
more violence can happen.  Though tinged by the hate he has learned,  this is 
a bile which comes from Draco himself, not simply a rote repetition of his 
father's doctrine.
 
> However, I don't see Draco or Dudley, for that matter, as just bad 
 kids.  I see them both as victims of the parents who are raising them.  
 Dudley is as abused as Harry; overindulgence can be just as damaging 
 as neglect.  Draco's father is not teaching his son to stand on his 
 own.  Both of these boys have had little choice so far in their lives 
 because they have yet to be in situations (like Harry) where they can 
 really question how they were raised and if their parents were doing 
 the right and good thing in raising them.
 
 I think it's admirable that you learned at a young age to not follow 
 your parents' view on race.  Most children, unfortunately, do not take 
 a step back and do what you did.  Kids whose parents hit them or each 
 other grow up to hit their own kids or be in abusive relationships 
 themselves.  The statistics are sadly overwhelming.
 
 Draco and Dudley may eventually have changes of heart, but they are 
 now quite young and blissfully happy in their situations.  They both 
 believe they are well loved by their parents because they are 
 mistaking their material rewards for love.  That's a pretty big lure 
 (I've been there; I know).  Something drastic will have to happen for 
 either of them to see their parents for who they really are.
  >>


I have a hard time seeing either child as abused.  Though I see where you're 
coming from, from the canonical evidence, it doesn't seem like either is 
abused by their overendulgence.  

There is a "buying a child's love" type of abuse that a parent can 
perpetrate.  I've seen it happen.  But I don't think that's the case with the 
Dursleys.  There is very clearly is a genuine affection for Dudley and the 
Dursleys see satisfying his every whim as their way of expressing their love. 
 They do give him more support than just money.  For example, when Dudley has 
to diet, the rest of the family goes on the diet with him.  This, to me, 
doesn't qualify as trying to replace real emotional love with a financial 
reward.

Draco, is more difficult to determine.  We know almost nothing about his home 
life, aside from fact that Dad's a DE and Mom's a bit of a snob.  It is very 
easyfrom those two facts to imagine a life for him where his parents are cold 
and distant and try to buy his love.   
But it is not the only possible life we can extrapolate from the facts in the 
books.   My personal opinion is that Lucius is as proud of Draco as Draco is 
of Lucius.   He wants Draco to be the very best and if he has to buy his 
whole team new brooms to get Draco to be the seeker, then he does it.  This 
sort of dynamic in their relationship would also explain the anger that 
Lucius shows when Hermione gets a higher grade than Draco (a common example 
of "abuse" brought up), since like many fathers who push their kids to excel, 
seeing them fail makes them angry (compare this with say a father raising his 
boy to play football).

This is not to excuse Lucius (I think he's a jerk in either case), but 
another possible explanaiton which does not absolve Draco entirely.