[HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion Question #2

[Edblanning at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 37624


> > Does Snape act out of a  petty devotion to rules and procedures, 
> > or is that  just an excuse to make people  miserable? How does 
> > his attitude toward rules and discipline compare to Percy's?
> 
jc:
> Snape will quite clearly break rules to advance himself and to 
> accomplish a goal (I can see him actually slipping Veritaserum into 
> Harry's drink, and his threat to Neville's toad was very real.)  
> However, by forcing the rules to be followed he's not only keeping 
> his students in line while working on a dangerous subject, but is 
> 

Me (Eloise):
I'm not sure where you get the idea that Snape will clearly break rules to 
advance himself. Yes, I know Marina once kindly pointed out to me that 
joining the DEs must have broken a few rules, but that aside :-).....
What I mean is that being a DE is something totally different, its badness of 
a completely different order of magnitude, *beyond* rule-breaking, possibly 
(though I don't personally think this is the case with Snape) having an 
ideological element.
Before I get myself into trouble here, I'd better say that I don't think that 
one's beliefs justify acts that others consider unethical or immoral, but I 
do intellectually acknowledge that others may act from a different ethical 
standpoint and do things that I consider wrong, for reasons which *they* 
think are right. 

The only time I can think of a time when Snape actually breaks a *rule* (as 
opposed to the law) is when he follows Lupin out of bounds as a student.
Would he actually slip Harry some Veritaserum? I'm not so sure. It would get 
him into extremely deep water with Dumbledore if he were found out. I don't 
think he would actually go against Dumbledore without very pressing need. 
Convinced as he is about his own view of Lupin, it is not until Lupin has, in 
his eyes, *proved* himself unworthy that he takes action by ensuring his 
resignation. As for the toad.....I don't think I can talk about the toad any 
more after Tabouli's post.....but we don't know what would have happened to 
Trevor had Neville's potion been wrong, nor that he couldn't/ wouldn't have 
remedied it.

No, Snape's life seems to me to be full of unfulfilled ambition and 
unaccomplished goals. I think one of the reasons is that, these days, he 
*does* play by the rules. As one who believes that he has rejoined the Light 
side out of conviction, but doesn't temperamentally *want* to be there, I 
think that perhaps part of his devotion to rules and procedures is a 
projection (that word again) of a self-discipline necessary for him to 
embrace his new life. 

> > Harry 
> > has never had trouble interpreting Snape's expression before: is 
> >

jc:
> I think everyone has changed because of the events in GoF.  Snape, by 
> this point, may still hate Harry like nothing else, but has to 
> respect him because of his fight against Voldemort, as well as put 
> aside petty personal issues because of the graveness of the situation 
> 

Me (Eloise):
Has he never had trouble before because he saw what was there or because he 
saw what he believed was there? Initially the former, I think, after which it 
becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as their relationship spirals into deeper 
and deeper hatred.

This respect issue is interesting. I have argued that one of Snape's problems 
with Harry is that he is jealous of the way he has constantly thwarted him, 
the way he has repeatedly defeated Voldemort in a way that he would like to 
have been able to do (whether out of desire for recognition, naked ambition, 
need for revenge, desire for redemption, whatever your interpretation of his 
motivation is).
Now, Snape has never respected Harry before for his achievements against 
Voldemort, so why should he now?

The change in the equation is that this time Voldmort is back. This time, 
Harry hasn't hindered Voldemort, whether wittingly as over the Stone or 
unconsciously as he did in infancy. Harry has escaped him, he has proved 
himself a wizard worthy of respect and more. But at the same time he has, 
however unwillingly, *aided* Voldemort. He has been the agent of his return, 
doubly so in that by this time Snape must also understand his part in 
allowing Pettigrew to return to him.
In a way, the two of them are in the same boat, both have feelings of guilt 
(for I think Harry realises his part, doesn't he?) for their involvement in 
aiding the Dark Lord.

I think that Snape must now be recognising that perhaps he has underestimated 
Harry, that he hasn't simply been lucky in his previous exploits. He may be 
coming to a recognition that he has been a little err...petty. He may also by 
now know things that Harry doesn't know about his own destiny, things that 
either he (Snape) hasn't been informed of until now, or things he's been 
reluctant to acknowledge. (I'm thinking of prophecy type things, the things 
that Dumbledore seems to be aware of, that he doesn't let Harry in on.)

Harry's perceptions too have changed. He has a lot of questions to ask about 
Snape. He has finally internalised the message Hermione and Hagrid have been 
telling him. It's not surprising he has problems interpreting what Snape's 
thinking: we have the same problem and I think we've given him a lot more 
serious thought than Harry's ever done!

What I find interesting about this encounter is that the two of them 
apparently hold each other's gaze. I think the only time they've probably 
done this before is in a situation of anger. Snape obviously isn't flashing 
(or glittering) a look of pure, unadulterated malice at Harry, nor does he 
immediately look away as one tends to when someone catches you looking at 
them. It's more like a sizing-up. I think both of them are having to do some 
re-assesment of their own and each other's roles in the war to come.

Dazed_sparkling_dreamer talks about the Slytherins:

>Even Dumbledore's speech at the end of PS/SS when he changes the 
>flags.  He could of changed the points before, that would of been 
>sensitive, this wasn't.  He sent a year of slytherins off into the 
>world feeling increadibly bitter.

>Now imagine going through all this as an adolescent.  THe most 
>emotionally screwy and embarrising years of your life and almost hte 
>entire school hates you.  Hell probably a lot of people can remember 
>feeling like this at some point.  Now imagine this for seven years!  
>This would be traumatic anyway but these are also the most ambitous 
>people in the school.  They may well feel that well what is the point 
>in being 'good', staying on the 'light' side.  The light side has 
>rejected them. 

I include this quote here, because it is so similar to my argument for why 
Snape joined the DEs, his experience of school  failed to demonstrate the 
ethical superiority of the Light side, that the results of incidents such as 
the prank came dangerously close to Voldemort's philosophy of the invalidity 
of the concepts of good and evil. 

I originally said,
> It's not so much what the Marauders did that's the problem, as what 
> Dumbledore *didn't* do. I fancy he felt ever so let down by 
> the 'light' side, didn't find justice in the all-wise all-just 
> Dumbledore. . . . What's the point of allying yourself with 
> goodness if evil goes unpunished? Is there any difference between 
> the two sides? Perhaps not. 

Eloise




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