Crouch Sr/Wand-theory/Foreshadowings?

[finwitch]

No: HPFGUIDX 37786

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "charisjulia" <pollux46 at h...> wrote:
 
> I absolutely agree. It does sorta chill the blood in your veins, 
> doesn't it? I don't think there can be much doubt that Barty Sr was 
> indeed an inexorable, ruthless, ironfisted man. As a matter of fact 
I 
> can relate with the trio's reaction. It * is* shocking that a man 
> could treat his only son so cruelly. It is shocking that the 
> wizarding legal system would allow him the power to do so. The 
whole 
> scene, fortified by Crouch Jr's really very touching performance in 
> the Pensieve trial (which incidentally I have always wondered about.
>Was he simply putting on an extremely convincing show, or was he 
> actually innocent of this particular charge? We know he's an 
> excellent actor of course and he certainly was a most devoted DE, 
> but, well, oh, he's just so * convincing*, hang it all!

As I read it, I was totally convinced Jr. did *not* do it. That he 
was just another innocent sent to Azkaban. That his own father 
doesn't listen? It might have been Sr. had some sort of "prophetic, 
true vision" knowledge that unless he stopped it, Voldemort would be 
back by the help of Jr.

 Maybe he 
> really was "at the wrong place, at the wrong time" as far as 
> torturing the Longbottoms goes. The idea has been suggested before 
> and, well, it * could* happen you know!) does nothing to promote 
> respect for Crouch Sr character or magical administrative 
> organization.

Innocents though guilty -- Hagrid, Sirius - was Jr. the third? Not 
only Jr's behaviour, but precedents of innocent victims of wizarding 
judging system-- well, Jr. seemed to be the third who wasn't guilty 
to *that* charge, but very much guilty to other crimes. (And it's not 
like Hagrid&Sirius are exactly innocent, but their unlawful 
activities... those things don't, I think, warrant time in Azkaban, 
not to the level they *did* spend time there, at least.

> What I was in fact referring to here was the intentional way in 
which 
> the reader is being lead off the scent (even though he doesn't have 
a 
> chance in a million anyway : --) through rather dubious (as at 
least 
> Harry's comments seams to me here) statements and conflicting (eg 
> Percy v. Sirius) descriptions of his character. I don't know if 
> others felt this, but the way I read the book I was definitely 
> bewildered while at the same time feeling very suspicious of the 
very 
> unfavourable way we were encouraged to view Crouch Sr.

He does wrong in sending Jr. to Azkaban, and tries to 'correct' that 
by smuggling him out, keeping the boy under Unforgivable, absolute 
Control Curse, then by firing Winky... Things go more and more wrong. 
Two wrongs don't make a right. He did, finally, try to do right - but 
got killed before he got to Dumbledore to do it!

> During my first reading of GoF I spent most of the time fluctuating 
> between Crouch and Bagman, trying desperately to choose between 
them 
> for the most likely candidate for this book's Bad Guy and failing 
> miserably, while all the time knowing of course that it really 
could 
> only be anyone * but* them, but not for the life of me being able 
to 
> guess who.
 
Well - but not Crouch (who wasn't there enough) - Bagman *did* get 
some doubts, I mean, offered assistance by a judge? But then again, 
first I thought he was testing Harry (and disqualified him if he'd 
have agreed) - - but as to who put Harry's name into the cup -- I had 
no idea until it was all revealed.

> See, I was looking at authorial intent here. It just seems to me 
that 
> the whole book is trying to built the basis for giving the reader a 
> Really Big Shock (in a much more effective way than say in PS, 
where 
> you don't really ever seriously suspected Snape) when they in fact 
do 
> find out the truth.

You know... I expected them to find a smiling Dumbledore. "So you 
*did* manage to pass my little trap-track, Harry?"- as if the whole 
thing had been a prank set by Dumbledore. "Excellent work.. I really 
must say this isn't safe for the stone if three first-years can do 
it... I thank you for it - by not taking of points for your being 
here when you should be back in your dorm, sleeping..."
 
> I don't know. Maybe you didn't read the book like that. Or more 
> probably you find all this self—evident. I never really was any 
good 
> at seeing through mystery stories :--) I guess I was simply 
> attempting to understand the ingenious workings of JKR plot. For me 
> it is one of the main attractions of the books.
 
I love those mysteries, too. What of the blood-stains of the Bloody 
Baron? Why can *he* control Peeves?

Derived from "Can't get as good results with another's wand as one 
gets with one's own" notion, after seeing Ollivander again:
Could a Wizard do some simple spells *without* incantation, but only 
with *his* own wand? After all, Fleur's wand - Orchideus (Flowers for 
the Lady) - Cedric's: "one of mine" - he sends those smoke-rings out 
of it, no incantation (a foreshadowing of Cedric's death?)
Krum's: Ollivander recognises the maker, (don't recall who) - sends 
off birds with incantation (*is* Krum a bird animagus, or did this 
have to do with his Seeker abilities, or a symbol to later freedom 
without Karkaroff?) -- and then lets out a fountain of wine without 
incantation from Harry's wand. (Foreshadowing of Harry being blood-
source for Voldemort's restorance?) I figured it as red wine BTW... 
blood-red.

> 
> Motivation, huh? Yes, that definitely is a very good question. 
After 
> all Crouch Sr's behaviour is rather bizarre to say the least. He 
> convicts his son, disowns him and goes * faaaar* out of his way to 
> leave no doubt he absolutely, definitely, positively despises the 
> boy. . . and then turns a flip—flop right in our face and comes up 
> with a cunning and elaborate plan to rescue Barty, pulls it off and 
> spends the next decade or so harbouring and controlling him. Why?

Wrongs. Secrets. Sceleton in the closet... Granting his *dying* wife 
her last wish... Number of reasons. Maybe, maybe even a prophecy 
saying that his son will help Voldemort to return again? So he had to 
go to extremes to prevent that (short from killing the boy). But then 
his *wife* who was in pain, dying - requests him to do that little 
thing - haunts him with it until he agrees. It's done - he still 
tries to keep his son imprisoned (although, in more comfort than in 
Azkaban)...

--Finwitch