The Ancient Magic Witch theory, the fight back

[grey_wolf_c]

No: HPFGUIDX 42071

Richelle wrote:
> As for Lily, she's the one who had time to do something.  While
> Voldemort was busy telling her to stand aside.  But then, what should
> she do?  If she AK's him, then she's no better than he is. Since it
> is the unforgivable curse.

This is not exactly true: using the AK does not make you into a Lord 
Voldemort. The fact that it is unforgivable is just a legal definition, 
something decreed by law AND an exception was, nonetheless, made for 
aurors, who could use any and all of the unforgivables in the search 
for deatheaters at that time. So, if the Potters (Lily and James) were 
Aurors (and I don't think we can discount that), they could've used the 
AK. Even if they weren't, I don't think the hardest trial at that time 
would've condemned Lily to prison *for destroying Lord Voldemort*.

Still Richelle:
> So if she did indeed know this ancient
> magic that just maybe Harry could be spared if she sacrificed herself
> than she did do something.  But if she didn't know, I guess she was
> willing to sacrifice herself to allow her baby a few more seconds of
> life.  Which would be the greatest sacrifice of all if she allowed 
> herself to die not truly believing it would save him. Perhaps that is
> the ancient magic?  A love so truly unselfish that you would die to 
> allow another to live only seconds longer?
>
> Richelle

I don't see things that way, although I know several people have 
expressed that the greatest sacrifice is the one that gives a baby a 
few more seconds of life. I don't see how that's courageous, I just 
find it useless (please don't be offended, I do respect your belief, 
even if I don't understand it). From *my point of view*, sacrificing 
yourself for the sake of a few seconds, in fact, serves no purpose: a 
baby cannot survive anyway, especially if your sacrifice does not stop 
the danger, as in this case.

I much prefer to believe that the ancient magic requires a sacrifice 
made from love: "Man knows no greater love than a mother cat giving her 
life for her kittens" the saying goes, but if the kittens inmediately 
die, the sacrifice is moot. Only by having Lily lay her life down for 
the sake of completing a spell that will give her little boy a life, do 
I find her sacrifice meaningful. At any rate, this point is only a 
matter of point of view, so if anyone wants to flame me for expressing 
my opinion, please do so privately, and bear in mind that I probably 
won't answer.

Corinth modified: 
> Hmm, I like the idea that Lily was studying ancient spells as a last 
> resort to defeating Voldemort.  However, I have a different idea as 
> to the type of spell this might be.
> 
> She suddenly remembered a spell she had come 
> across that repelled the Avada Kedavra curse.  A complicated spell, 
> which would take a while to perform.  She wouldn't have time to 
> perform this spell and save herself as well.  So she is forced to 
> make a choice: 1) take Harry and run while James delays Voldemort, 
> thus saving herself and her son, but possibly (probably, considering 
> Voldemort's power at the time) only delaying an eventual successful 
> attack on Harry; or 2) perform the ancient spell, thus saving Harry, 
> but leaving her with no time to escape.  Lily chooses the latter.  
> She begins the spell.  Voldemort enters, and tells her to stand 
> aside.  Lily, after all, does not seem to be fighting him, and as his 
> target is so near he sees no reason to kill her.  Until he realizes 
> the spell she is attempting.  He then kills her, without realizing 
> that he is too late.  The rest is history.
> 
> In this instance, Lily's death isn't actually necessary for the 
> ancient magic to work.  Luckily for my theory, the books never 
> actually state that Lily's death saved Harry that night.  
>
> To be fair, there is one quote that may hurt my theory. In GoF, 
> p.658, Voldemort says "...there is no Dumbledore to help him, and no 
> mother to die for him...." before dueling with Harry.  But then, 
> Vodemort was impatient, and saying, "no mother to attempt to perform 
> an ancient spell, which would have prevented me from killing the boy 
> whom I had hunted for so long, and causing to to waste precious time 
> in killing her, which turned out to be unnecessary anyway since she 
> had already successfully protected her child" would have been quite a 
> mouthful.  :)
> 
> Well, that's my theory.  Lily's death wasn't the cause of Harry 
> survival.  Instead, she chose to protect Harry rather than save 
> herself.  Her love for him (and he ability with ancient magic) saved 
> him.
> 
> -Corinth

To be fair, Corinth, you should think of NOT including counter 
arguments in your theories, especially if they're canon based, since it 
makes them easier to attack: you've provided the two main extracts I 
had thought of, and I didn't even have to translate them. Thanks, at 
any rate. As you point out, at least three people point out that it was 
Lily's death that allowed the love shield to exist, although the nature 
of the shield IS love.

Why don't I believe your theory is correct? Well, for one thing, I 
don't buy that the protection spell is just "long". If there was a 
spell that protected wizards and witches from AK, they would ALL be 
using it, and it would not be ancient magic, but common one. 

The way I see it, for a spell to be "ancient" it must have been used in 
the past, but for some reason or another, wizards and witches stopped 
using it. In the particular case of the love-shield, a spell cost of a 
human sacrifice would be a reason to stop using it: after all, you 
wouldn't want a loved one to give your life for you just in case 
someone tried to AK you: a life would have been lost anyway, so you 
gain nothing (and normally, you loose a lot, since for some reason 
humans prefer to die than to see a loved one die).

That's the main reason I introduced Lily's sacrifice as a part of the 
incantation; else, everyone would be using it, it would not have been 
forgotten. Or, if you think as kangasboy (aka pat mahony; aka roo) that 
"ancient magic" means "elemental magic", if the spell was as easy as a 
three-minute incantation (or even a week incantation, or whatever), 
Voldemort would've had it more present, and it would not have slipped 
his mind. Whilst, if it does require such an increadible high 
"activation cost", Voldemort would've filed it away as "impractical" 
when he saw it while looking for inmortality methods, not only for him 
(since it would be hard to find someone who loved him when his 
objective was to be feared), but also for Dumbledore's side (since he 
doesn't understand love, he wouldn't think anyone would give his life 
for another out of love).

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf, who really doesn't want to offend anyone's belief about 
sacrifice: please bear in mind that what's expressed here is his point 
of view.