Who was witness to the killing of James and Lily?

[bluesqueak]

No: HPFGUIDX 42211

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "elvishooked" <Elvishooked at h...> wrote:

Inge writes:
> I have so many (stupid) questions - hoping somebody can clear up 
> some of them for me ;-)
> On the night that Voldemort killed James and Lily - who was 
> actually present at the house to tell what really happened?

Oooh, *wouldn't* we like to know! [grin]

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/timeline_potters.html
has the canon time line for those events. If you read it, you'll find 
that we simply haven't yet been told the full sequence of events. 
[Grey Wolf has remarked that we learnt more about the events on That 
Night from the film than we have from the first four books]

> I dont recall having read of anyone except James, Lily, Harry and 
> Voldemort being in the house when they were killed. So who actually 
> TOLD the story of what happened?
> How is it that everybody knows that Lily sacrificed her self to 
> protect Harry? She and James died. Harry didnt remember anything 
> and Voldemort "ran". Who told Dumbledore (and everyone else) what 
> exactly went on in that house?


One possibility would be that the Potter's hideout was 
magically 'bugged' so that Dumbledore could see anything happening in 
the house - but the attack by Voldemort happened too quickly for any 
reinforcements to get there in time.

My bet would be that the voice Harry heard telling Lily to run wasn't 
James [we do not see James die in That Which Must Not Be Mentioned, 
and that particular scene was specifically approved by JKR so it 
would fit in with as yet unrevealed plotlines] - and this is why 
Lupin was so surprised (PoA p. 178 UK hardback) when Harry told him 
he heard James. James probably died somewhere outside the house; it 
was Someone Else inside the house that Harry heard.

Whoever the Someone Else was, they survived and were able to contact 
Dumbledore and tell him what happened.

My current theory is 'it wuz Snape' - though the problem with this is 
the question of why Harry wouldn't have recognised Snape's voice. 
However, 'it wuz Snape' is the simplest solution to several other 
problems.

I think Snape found out that the Secret Keeper had betrayed the 
Potters hiding place too late for Dumbledore to have time to warn the 
Potters, had to go straight to the Potters (having told Dumbledore 
that's what he was doing), arriving seconds before Voldemort. James 
tries to stop Voldemort outside the house, Snape runs inside, shouts 
to Lily to take Harry and run, tries to hold Voldemort off (it's been 
established that Snape's GOOD at dueling); and does NOT get AK'd 
because:

Possibility A: Voldemort really gets off on torturing disloyal DE's 
[though not enough to ever distract him from the business in hand] 
and 'saves Snape for later', so to speak, immobilising him with some 
other spell.

Possibility B: Lollipops (Snape was in love with Lily ) is not only 
100% accurate, but was well known to Voldemort. Voldemort reckons 
that if he spares Lily, his extremely useful potions expert, 
obviously willing to die to save Lily, is going to be prepared to do 
absolutely *anything* to keep Lily alive and uncrucio'd. Which could 
come in very handy... 

Possibility B, of course, neatly explains why Voldemort tries to get 
Lily to stand aside.

Both Possibilities A and B assume that Snape only then survived 
because Harry somehow managed to turn Voldemort into a wisp of 
noxious gas.

Dumbledore gets the message about the Potters too late to send 
reinforcements, but he sends Hagrid to see if anyone survived. Hagrid 
finds the ruined house, starts searching in the rubble, finds a live 
Snape who tells him what happened [Snape heard everything]. They 
*both* find Harry. 

Snape tells Hagrid to say nothing about his being there, and leaves 
Hagrid literally holding the baby. 'Sirius Black' then turns up; 
after that other Wizards turn up (to perform any needed Memory Charms 
on the Muggles, or just to find out what happens)and Hagrid tells 
them what Snape has told him (without revealing his source). Hence 
the celebrations at the start of PS/SS, because the news spreads like 
wildfire.

This is why only Voldemort on the Dark Side seems to realise that 
Snape is no longer loyal. Sirius Black knows that Pettigrew was the 
Secret Keeper because most of the inmates of Azkaban know it - but no 
DE seems to scream curses on the spy Snape. As far as the DE's in 
Azkaban are concerned, Snape's cover seems to be intact. (Presumably, 
the fact that he convinced everyone at the Post-Voldemort trials of 
his innocence - see GoF p. 513 UK hardback - is simply seen as a 
really nifty bit of footwork by DE's such as Karkaroff )

Voldemort, on the other hand, uses Quirrel to get into Hogwarts - NOT 
Snape, who's already there. Quirrelmort seems completely unsurprised 
that Snape tried to save Harry Potter's life, or stop Voldemort from 
stealing the stone - hardly the sorts of things a loyal DE would do 
(see Chapter 17 in PS/SS). 

But if Voldemort had found out Snape was a spy BEFORE the attack on 
the Potters, why is Snape still breathing (or alternatively still not 
breathing in an undead-but-mobile fashion)? If Snape is the 'one who 
I believe has left me forever' then Voldemort knows all about him 
working for Dumbledore. So when did he find out Snape had 'left him 
forever'? Just before finding himself corporeally challenged? 

'It wuz Snape' would also explain why HAGRID is so convinced Snape is 
on Dumbledore's side. Hagrid's description of events is:
"It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James' house after they 
was killed! Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing..." [PoA 
UK hardback, p153]

Now it sounds entirely in keeping with Hagrid's use of language that 
he would miss out the 'I' at the beginning of the second sentence, 
but if you read the whole rescue story [pp 153 - 154] that is the 
*only* sentence where Hagrid misses out an 'I' or a 'me'. 

So, Hagrid rescued Harry [yup, a Snape who'd been immobilised by 
Voldemort and then had a house fall on top of him was unlikely to be 
in any state to rescue anybody], but avoids saying that he got Harry 
out of the ruins by himself. Is that because when he was rescuing 
Harry he found Snape first and they *both* pulled Harry out of the 
ruins?

It would also explain why Hagrid's so embarrassed when Harry is 
complaining that Snape really hates him [PS/SS p. 105]. He knows a 
really good argument for Snape NOT hating Harry, and for some reason 
we don't yet know, he can't use it.

Why has Harry never been told Snape was there? Well, even if it 
wasn't Snape, but was Someone Else, we still have a problem of 'why 
hasn't Harry been told'?

But we *know* Dumbledore is refusing to tell Harry things about 
Snape. He neatly avoids saying 'Snape hates you' in PS/SS [p. 217] 
and he won't tell Harry why he knows Snape no longer supports 
Voldemort. [ GoF p. 524 UK hardback]. Not telling Harry there was 
Someone Else present when his parents were killed fits right in with -
the secrets surrounding Snape.

Yup, 'it wuz Snape'.

There you are, you see, Inge. You ask a stupid question and get a 
complicated theory in reply. Welcome to the list! [grin]

Pip
Squeak!

(purveyor of complicated theories to the list)