Fred and George: The Bullies You Do Know

[cindysphynx]

No: HPFGUIDX 43140

Darrin wrote (on whether the twins are bullies):

> 1) The stomping -- Why do people refuse to acknowledge what 
>Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were doing prior to this incident? It's 
>like blinders, it really is.

Oh, no.  It's not like blinders, IMO.  

See, what Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were doing before they were 
stomped is *totally* irrelevant to whether they deserved to be 
stomped, IMHO.  Once the three were disabled and unconscious, they 
no longer posed a threat to anyone.  Therefore, the stompers weren't 
engaged in self-defense (or defense of others) at that point.  (I 
think there's a pretty good argument that Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle 
weren't threatening the occupants of the train compartment in the 
first place so that any assault on them was wrong, but I'll go ahead 
and assume the twins acted in self-defense and defense of others.)  
They were engaged in plain old bullying of someone who was totally 
defenseless.

Not convinced?  Let's tweak the facts a bit.  Let's say that Malfoy, 
Crabbe and Goyle are dangerous predators -- serial killers or some 
such.  Let's further say that the twins are police officers.  Once a 
police officer has disabled a suspect, is the police officer allowed 
to go over to the suspect and kick them around, step on them 
deliberately, or stomp on them?

Of course not.

Now, this analogy still holds even if Fred and George are private 
citizens instead of police officers -- once someone has subdued a 
criminal while acting in self-defense, they aren't legally (or 
morally) entitled to stomp on them just because they feel like it.  

So.  To answer your question directly ("Why do people refuse to 
acknowledge what Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were doing prior to this 
incident?"), the reason is that it is totally irrelevant to whether 
the twins acted appropriately by deliberately stepping on 
unconscious individuals.  That was just plain *wrong.*  It is 
abusing a person in a weaker position -- bullying, in other words.  

Darrin:

>Then, they 
> shove them into the hallway and if you read canon, are careful to 
> step over the three Slyths on the way out.

Canon does *not* say Fred and George were careful to step over the 
three Slytherins on the way out.  Oh, no.  No, no, no.  Here's what 
canon says:

"He left the compartment before they could say another word, 
stepping over Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle  . . ."

The "He" in that sentence is *Harry.*  The "they" refers to Fred and 
George, who were stunned that Harry had given them his Triwizard 
winnings.  We have no idea how the twins left the compartment.  For 
all we know, the twins hopped up and down on Malfoy, Crabbe and 
Goyle on their way out.  ;-)

See, Harry is not a bully and he knows it would be *wrong* to step 
on an unconscious person out of spite.  So Harry steps *over* the 
three unconscious people rather than tread on them, even though I 
suspect he would dearly love to jump up and down on them.  If 
anything, Harry's behavior tells us that it was quite possible to 
enter or exit the compartment without stepping on Malfoy, Crabbe and 
Goyle -- which makes the twins' decision to do otherwise all the 
more abusive.

No, the only thing we know for sure about Fred and George in that 
scene is that they were deliberately cruel and stepped on 
unconscious people when they did not have to do so, past the point 
when any threat (and I use the term "threat" quite loosely here) had 
been neutralized.  "Fred "matter-of-factly" stepped onto Goyle.  
George "was careful to tread on Malfoy."  Yeah.  Fred and George 
went out of their way to abuse weaker individuals, to bully them, 
IMO.

Darrin:

> Please, do not believe I am defending Fred and George as saints. I 
> can see their act getting old. But I believe that they are nowhere 
> near the bullies Draco and his gang are and their motivations are 
> much less dangerous.

Oh, I'll grant you that Draco is a bigger bully than Fred and 
George.  But that doesn't mean that Fred and George are not bullies 
just because Draco is better at it.  After all, Voldemort is a 
murderer, but the fact that his bodycount is higher than Wormtail's 
does not mean Wormtail is not a murderer.  Draco, Fred and George 
have all engaged in bullying behavior in the books, IMO.

Darrin wrote (earlier in the thread):

> To compare Fred and George being cold to Cedric in a small group 
>to Draco's actions is unconscionable. 
 
I replied:

> I beg your pardon?  
 
> "Unconscionable" means "Not restrained by conscience; 
>unscrupulous; beyond prudence or reason; excessive."  Surely we can 
>disagree about a few scenes in a book series without anyone calling 
>anyone else's  scruples into question.  
 
Darrin responded:
 
> My language was carefully chosen there. 

Well . . . I think it is rather important to be clear, then.  It 
sounded to me like you were suggesting that those who disagree with 
you are either unconscionable themselves or that they are making an 
unconscionable argument.  Either way, I don't think it 
is "unconscionable" to make the arguments here with which you take 
issue.  It is probably more accurate and more kind simply to voice 
disagreement without characterizing either the argument or the 
person making it.  

Darrin continued:

>I sincerely believe that 
> there is such bending and twisting to somehow attach the same 
>level of severity to the actions of Gryffindors, any Gryffindors, 
>as to Slytherins, that crucial elements -- such as the racism 
>behind Draco's actions -- are being ignored. To do that is to place 
>the goal of the argument above the substance of the material you 
>are arguing, which I find beyond prudence and reason and excessive.

Ah, gee.  And I thought we were making real progress for a minute 
there.  ;-)

I disagree with you, as you've probably gathered.  But I don't think 
I'm bending anything, twisting anything, or ignoring anything.  I 
think we just disagree.  I don't understand why we can't just leave 
it there.  

I really do think that the actions of Fred and George in the train 
compartment were wrong – wrong like certain acts of bullying by 
Draco.  That Draco is also a racist does not change my analysis at 
all, because I don't think Fred and George get a pass on bullying 
conduct because Draco is a racist and they are not.  

I don't see how my difference of opinion means that I am placing a 
goal over substance.  In my own mind, I think I *am* arguing 
substance here.  So it is inaccurate to say I am placing the goal 
over the substance, just as it would be inaccurate of me to say that 
about anyone else's argument so far on this thread.

Darrin:

> I guess one way to look at it is this: Why haven't Fred and George 
> been left with their heads in a toilet somewhere? I mean, they are 
> bigger than the younger kids, but certainly not bigger than the 
> seventh-years. If their pranks are so intolerable to people, one 
> would think the law of the playground would have stopped it.

Um, maybe Fred and George are just really good at picking their 
targets, and they always make sure that they pick someone weak and 
widely viewed as unpopular?  Maybe older kids just don't wish to get 
involved?  I'm having trouble thinking of an instance in which Fred 
and George pick on a student who is stronger than they are, although 
maybe there is something indicating as much in canon and I just 
missed it.

Cindy