Fred and George: The Bullies You Do Know

[Sirius Kase]

No: HPFGUIDX 43259

Abigail was discussing why she finds the bullying discussion to be tedious.
I agree with most of your/her reasoning, that the arguments are getting to
be
repetitive and revolve around different definitions of bully and bullying.
The two sides don't appear to be getting closer, that is what I find
tedious.  The topic itself could be interesting and that I suppose is why it
persists on the list.

I agree with much of what Abigail says, but I'm not sure I agree with the
reasoning that the twins and their behavior can't be discussed meaningfully
because they aren't meant to be deep characters.  Harry doesn't think deeply
about them, that doesn't mean that in future books, their questionable
behavior won't take on a new significance.  Statements that don't mean much
now might be very meaningful in the context of the future books.  If we were
waiting for book three, would we be debating the significance of the flying
motorcycle in the first book?

Abigail:
> Because it's an unsatisfying pursuit. Sirius, Lupin, Snape truly have depth,
> and their flaws do turn them into interesting characters. I don't perceive
> the twins as having this kind of depth, and claiming that they are bullies
> doesn't help to give them that depth because their allegedly bullying
> behaviour is never addressed by canon. They are treated as walking jokes -
> barely even distinguishable one from the other - and their antics are never
> very firmly criticised or shown as having negative effects on anyone (not yet,
> anyway). Without these elements, any depth we perceive in the characters
> has either been so completely hidden by JKR that one wonders why it was
> introduced in the first place, or is a subversive reading of the characters.
> There are some characters, like Neville, that can shoulder the burden of a
> subversive reading, but the twins are not nearly meaty enough for it.

We must remember that we are confined to Harry's Point of View which doesn't
give us at all a complete and unbiased understanding of the twins.  Much of
what the twins do would be dreadful if Harry didn't have such a positive
opinion of them.  He "knows" that they mean well, that they are good guys at
heart.  They stick up for Harry and virtually save his life when the
Dursleys are starving him.  How could he not like them?  And when he notices
behavior that could be considered bullying, he discounts it because he knows
they mean well, that they are lightening up the situation, not trying to
hurt the "victim".

Why should we expect others characters to have the same opinion as Harry? We
don't know what the other Gryffindors or Slytherins or the teachers think.

How do we know that Neville enjoys being the butt of jokes?  Going along
with it may be his way of coping, laughing at himself might work better than
fighting them, after all, they are rather popular and the other kids would
rather laugh at him than stick up for him.  Since Neville doesn't have the
ability to change the situation, he chooses to go along with a situation
that he may not really enjoy.  And remember, we only see what Harry sees,
Neville might be crying his eyes out when Harry isn't looking or chooses not
to see.  Oh dear, I'm starting to sound like I belong in the twins are
bullies camp.  I didn't mean too.

My point is that the twins might be bullies or might not, both arguments are
legit.  It depends on what motives you attribute to them and how you
interpret Neville's reaction.  Which side the listees take depends a lot on
their personal experience.  But in this story, we must remember that it
isn't an absolute fact that anyone is a bully, it is perceptions that matter
and *Harry* clearly does not see them as bullies.  Whether anyone else (in
the books) does is not clear from canon.  But anyone who has been in
Neville's (or Dudley, etc) situation is bound to add their own feelings to
the story.

I also think that Harry's pure hate for Draco is misunderstood and
trivialized by the adults as a simple rivalry over who gets to be the top
dog.  It is seen as balanced and fair and that Harry is defending his
postion quite well.  All the really awful stuff we know about Draco is
hidden from the teachers.  Harry may feel bullied, but most people in the
Wizard World see him as being more powerful than he sees himself.

sirius kase


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