[HPforGrownups] Snape and various Infimary conversations in PoA

[eloiseherisson at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 43421

Porphyria:

> combining a couple of replies to Eloise. I originally said:
> 
> > > but Snape, when given the opportunity, turns Sirius over to the MoM.
> > > And I cannot think of any ulterior motive for him to do so; I think
> > > Fudge would have been delighted to take delivery of a soul-sucked
> > > Sirius, and Snape himself admits he has no idea why the Dementors
> > > were retreating, so it's not like he saw a Patronus galloping around.
> 
> And Eloise replied:
> 
> > First of all, the Dementors had been put to flight and Snape may have had 
> 
> > no
> > means of recalling them. I personally suspect they weren't coming back in 
> 
> > a
> > hurry.
> 
> Yes, but he didn't make any attempt at all. He originally speaks of 
> calling them over, but he doesn't actually try this. We know they aren't 
> coming back, but he has no idea of what's going on. Apparently he just 
> watches them go and carries on.

Now look, you know I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, don't you? 

On balance, I think you're right about what went on here, although I must 
admit that now I've had the idea that he thought the Dementors had already 
performed the Kiss, I do think it makes a lot of sense. It would certainly 
explain why he didn't call the Dementors. And think what must have gone 
through his mind if that is what he thought...not only did it appear that 
Sirius had been Kissed, but the students as well and no matter how much he 
hates Harry, I can hardly think he would have been happy with that result.

Secondly, I'm not sure that there's much moral difference between turning him 
over to the MOM to be soul-sucked and calling the Dementors to do it straight 
away, given that they had permission to do so if they found him. In fact, it 
would have been more merciful, wouldn't it?

> > Secondly, I think Snape may have seen the dramatic potential of bringing 
> > in
> > Sirius intact, as it were, of personally handing over his prisoner for
> > punisment. Sure, Fudge would have been delighted to take delivery of a
> > soul-sucked Sirius (that's a tongue-twister!), but it's not like anyone
> > important (as far as he was concerned) witnessed the events leading up to 
> 
> > it,
> > saw his part in it, even knew, beyond, his word, that he had been
> > instrumental in bringing it about.
> 
> Well, as you point out yourself, bringing back an unconscious man looks an 
> awful lot like bringing back a soul-sucked man (perhaps Snape has some 
> means of telling the difference; I don't have an answer for that one). He'
> s still personally handing over the prisoner to the law, pretty much the 
> same presentation value. Point being, I don't see where Snape was going 
> for dramatic potential here. 

Well, of course, this doesn't work if he *did* think the Kiss had already 
been performed.
But if he *didn't*, then I do think he could have made a bit more of the 
situation with a fully alive prisoner. He gets to have Fudge confront Sirius, 
gets to gloat over him *conscious*, gets a bit more of a judicial execution, 
possibly in front of witnesses, with himself in the starring role as his 
captor, rather than just bringing in this soul-sucked body (which he might 
have found just found lying around the grounds, as far as anyone else is 
concerned).

I think I prefer your version (or the thinking it had already happened 
version)!


As he later says to Fudge he wants Sirius to > 
> be soul-sucked right away, so I don't think he's expecting Sirius to give 
> some sort of dramatic testimony beforehand. He certainly doesn't want 
> Sirius as any kind of witness. 

Oh no, of course not. I don't think there was much danger of Sirius being 
given a fair hearing. Given his performance the first time he was caught, I 
suspect he wouldn't even have tried.

Fudge himself implies that Harry will later > serve as a witness if the Daily 
> Prophet wants an interview, so they both imagine that base being covered by 
> a far more prestigious person. 
> Furthermore, his main conversation with Fudge always strikes me for its 
> *lack* of dramatic potential, especially given Snape. You remark:
> 
> > Appearances, appearances! Snape was taking Sirius up to the castle and 
> > would
> > want to be seen in a good light - akin to the ever-so-reasonable way he 
> > talks
> > to Fudge about Harry. See how noble I am in victory, and all that. Sirius 
> 
> > had
> > no reason to care what anyone thought of his behaviour, except possibly 
> > for
> > Harry and he may have realised there was no love lost there.
> >
> > The counter-argument is, of course, that Snape really was being noble in 
> > what
> > he thought was his victory - which would make subsequent events even 
> > harder
> > to bear. Phew!
> 
> Yeah, that is my counter-argument. Well, perhaps more 'reasonable' than 
> 'noble,' but along the same lines. 

Yeah. I was getting my epithets confused. You're noble in *defeat*, aren't 
you, *magnanimous* in victory.

What strikes me about Snape's first > 
> conversation with Fudge in the infirmary is Snape's honesty and 
> matter-of-factness. [I remember others have characterized this 
> conversation as 'oily,' but I just don't hear it that way.] You'd think he'
> d be bragging about his prowess or at least buttering Fudge up in the hope 
> of insuring that medal, but he's actually very modest. When Fudge asks him 
> how he got the bump on the head, he immediately tells them it was the 
> children, which you would think would be a little embarrassing for him to 
> admit. Of course he quickly explains their relative innocence...:-) 
> Likewise, when Fudge asks him if he knows why the Dementors were 
> retreating, he concedes he has no idea, and his reply also indicates that 
> he has admitted he was knocked out for a significant portion of the events.
>   He's not quite self-effacing, but he's not wrenching it for all it's 
> dramatic potential either. (Imagine the wild tale about heroically 
> dispelling the Dementors that Lockhart would have fabricated were he in 
> the same place.) Eerily, he's just being truthful.


Which I put down to his cleverness and acting ability. It is just so well 
thought out and put together. Far more effective than if he had been bragging 
or buttering Fudge up. 

> What also strikes me about this conversation is that Snape does in fact 
> use the audience with Fudge to bang on his very favorite drum about how 
> Harry gets too many privileges. This, to me, sounds more flatly honest 
> than either wise, ingratiating or politic. Everyone knows the politically 
> correct attitude to express is one of fondness and support for Harry 
> Potter (even Lucius recommends this). You would think if Snape were either 
> *trying* to sound noble (i.e. faking it, hamming it up) or at least trying 
> to cement his new chumminess with Fudge (i.e. sucking up) that he'd be 
> smart enough to not complain about Harry, or at least stop the second 
> Fudge says "we've all got a bit of a blind spot where he's concerned," but 
> no, Snape goes right on arguing his case. I can't help but think Snape's 
> "ever-so-reasonable" manner is not an act, but a calmer version of how he 
> really feels. Especially since the words he expresses here do not clash 
> with any of Snape's previous actions; on the contrary, of course we've 
> known all along that Snape does want Harry reined in for his own 
> protection, he's just usually more angry in the way he says it. So apart 
> from the fact that Snape is being very polite with Fudge, nothing in the 
> substance of what he actually says sounds to my ear calculated to make him 
> appear in an ideal light.


I hear what you're saying, but I have always interpreted the very 
reasonableness of his complaints about Harry to be calculated: he knows he 
can't rave at Fudge (look at what happens when he does), so he goes with the 
'How can you possibly not see my point when I'm being so reasonable' line.

> While we're in the infirmary, Dumbledore later says to Snape:
> 
> > > "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in
> > > two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling
> > > them further"
> 
> And Eloise interpreted:
> 
> > The way I understand it, this interpretation is premised on the fact that
> > there are *not* a dozen magical ways in which HH could, or appear to be, 
> > in
> > two places at once. The idea originally came up in response to the 
> > question
> > of what on earth Dumbledore was up to, virtually giving the game away 
> like
> > that. If there were a number of other ways that they could have done it, 
> > then
> > surely Fudge would have been aware them too and Dumbledore would have 
> been
> > risking ringing alarm bells by raising the topic of bi-location.
> >
> > It was only safe for Dumbledore to give a coded warning to Snape to shut 
> > up
> > if he and he alone understood the message. If, in other words the way 
> > which
> > Snape knew they were able to be in two places at once was the only way - 
> > and
> > it was so unlikely and so impossible that a student would have access to 
> > that
> > way that Fudge would not suspect it.
> 
> Well, I agree that that remark is calculated to send a message to Snape 
> that Fudge won't understand. Is that the main point you and Pippin were 
> making? 

Yes! Well, part of it.

I think that this is probably true, and since Fudge is basically > 
> an idiot, I think there is plenty of wiggle room for Dumbledore to toss a 
> hint at Snape without having anything click in Fudge's mind. Surely we can 
> all agree that Snape is better at putting two and two together than Fudge!
>   But I too am basing my interpretation on the assumption that Snape could 
> figure something out that Fudge couldn't.
> 
> See, whether there are a dozen (what I originally suggested) or merely one 
> way in which H&H could have rescued Sirius, I still say that Dumbledore is 
> letting Snape know that Harry had his knowledge and approval in doing it. 
> And while you can certainly interpret this as Dumbledore simply letting 
> Snape know what the deal is, I feel that, in the context of Snape freaking 
> out and Dumbledore acting like he's enjoying himself, eyes a-twinkle, it 
> comes across IMO as virtually mocking. 

I'll read it again when I retrieve the book!

It's not open mockery in the sense > 
> that anyone else is supposed to understand, it's private mockery between 
> just these two. Snape *can't* do anything about it now since Sirius has 
> already disappeared, and since I don't actually think that Snape would 
> want to get Dumbledore in trouble with the Ministry over it, he's left to 
> do nothing but storm off. So Dumbledore's comment has the same effect as 
> his previous one about his memory, it utterly stifles Snape which, while 
> merciful for everyone else, is still rather cruel to Snape and a cavalier 
> way to treat someone who will risk their life for you later on. 

You see, I'm wondering what else Dumbledore could have said to get the 
message across. I quite admit that he's enjoying the situation, but at who's 
expense, I'm not sure. His remark to Fudge about Severus' disappontment is 
very paternal, I think, a remark about a wayward child to whom tolerance must 
be shown.
I think it is a very specific message, which I interpret as, 'Yes, Severus, 
you're right, but for goodness' sake shut up now, because it's part of my 
plan and you're going to ruin everything.'  I think he was forced into saying 
it. Snape wasn't in the mood just to be told to be quiet: it had to be a 
really strong message that told him of Dumbledore's interest in the 
situation. And it seems that they had not had a chance to converse before 
then, so I don't think he had the opportunity to explain in advance, in 
private.

I don't think he really does enjoy the Sirius/Snape conflict - look at his 
impatience with them at the end of GoF.

But to > repeat my point from before, this, ironically, does point to the 
> degree of 
> trust between them that they can clash to this extent and still be 
> confident in each other when some dark force opposes both of them.

And I cannot quibble with your assessment of their relationship.


>>~Porphyria, who still doesn't know why webview thinks it's a good idea to 
breaks lines where she puts apostrophes>>

It does it on Email too!


Eloise

> 
> 



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