Sirius & remorse; Fat Lady

[Judy]

No: HPFGUIDX 47757

Should Sirius apologize for the Prank?

Dicentra said:
> This apology issue comes up from time to time, and it
> really perplexes me, especially in the case of the Pr*nk.  We *so*
> don't know what happened...
> Sneaking around trying to get MWPP expelled is not as 
> insignificant as most people make it out to be.  
> Getting expelled from Hogwarts means that you
> never become a fully qualified wizard...Sirius was
> justifiably angered by the fact that Snape was hell-bent on ruining
> Lupin's (and his, James's and Peter's) life.  He had undoubtedly
> confronted Snape about it before, but Snape persisted.

Wait a minute -- "We *so* don't know what happened," yet we know that
Sirius undoubtedly confronted Snape before?  How do you get that? 

I don't think MWPP were in any danger of expulsion.  Snape can't get
anyone expelled even as a professor, so he had no hope of getting
anyone expelled back when he was just a student. Dumbledore doesn't
believe in expelling anyone, not even half-giants whose pets
apparently murder students.  All Snape could have done was cost MWPP
some points or a few detentions. Did MWPP know that they were in no
risk of expulsion?  They should have, what with Dumbledore going
around twinkling all the time. And Sirius just says that Snape was
*hoping* to get them expelled, not that Snape was likely to suceed.
(Harry always seems to think he's going to be expelled, but it just
doesn't make any sense that Dumbledore would do that.) 

Dicentra said:
> Snape can read a lunar chart as well as anyone else; he must have
> suspected the truth about Lupin.  Why didn't he go ahead and tattle
> instead of hounding MWPP?

I think the text implies that Snape did *not* know Lupin was a
werewolf, although I think this is a bit of a plot hole.  Dicentra, do
you mean Snape could have tattled to the other students?  The staff
obviously knew already about Lupin's condition. 

Dicentra also said: 
> When Snape entered Hogwarts, he knew more curses than most 7th
years.
> He was *not* someone you messed with; Sirius would know that. 
Sirius
> would have assumed that Snape would go into the tunnel armed--if he
> went at all--and therefore could have defended himself against
> Wolf!Lupin.

I've also wondered why Snape couldn't just stun Wolf!Lupin (or AK
him?)  Perhaps werewolves are highly magic-resistant, like dragons
are.  If werewolves were easily susceptible to magic, I don't see why
the wizarding world would be so fearful of them.

As for whether Snape was really in danger of dying, I think that Snape
*was* in danger (Dumbledore refers to Snape's life debt to James), but
that Sirius hadn't realized just how dangerous the Prank was. 

As for whether Sirius should have apologized to Snape, I agree that he
really has no chance in canon.  Whenever he meets Snape, it's in the
middle of some crisis.  However, Sirius shows absolutely no signs of
remorse at all when Lupin mentions the Prank: "Black made a derisive
noise. 'It served him right,' he sneered." (PoA Ch. 18, p. 356 in US
hardcover edition.) I think he could do a lot better. 


Has Sirius done other things for which he should be remorseful? 

Well, there's the on-going debate about the Fat Lady. 
On the topic of she is sentient, I said:
> Also, I can't see
> why the Hogwarts staff would negotiate with the Fat Lady to come 
> back, if she were just a simulation.

To which Monika replied:
> Do you read a lot of science fiction? Stories that deal with
> artificial life in the future show complex behaviour in simulations
> and robots

I've read both science fiction and philosophy on this topic.  If
machines are ever developed that show as much autonomy and
intelligence as humans, there will be a real question as to whether
these machines are sentient and should be given rights.  One major
theory of sentience is that it's essentially a byproduct of thinking,
and that intelligence without sentience is therefore impossible.  

Sherry objected that perhaps the portrait people are *not* sentient,
because Sir Cadogan seems unintelligent.  I'd say that Sir Cadogan is
just supposed to be crazy.  (In fact, Sherry, you point this outself
when you quoted Bill Weasley from GoF: "Is that picture of the mad
knight still around?  Sir Cadogan?")

Sherry asked what Sirius would do if the Fat Lady had been human: 
> he would probably shove her out of the way
> and break down the door. What he actually did to the  
> portrait is really no different: slashing it didn't kill 
> the Fat Lady (whether she *could* be killed or not is moot),
> she was able to get out of the way, so all he did was
> "shove" her out of the way and break down her door. 

I interpreted Peeves' comments that the Fat Lady was "ashamed" and "a
horrible mess" as meaning that the Fat Lady *herself* had been
damaged, not just her home.  I'd expect that if she were intact, she'd
just move in with Violet or another painting until hers was fixed, and
the other paintings wouldn't be frightened. So, I think Sirius did
more than just "push her out of the way."  

Anyway, attacking the Fat Lady does nothing to let Sirius get into the
dorm; the painting won't open if she's gone. It's not like breaking
down a door.  Since Sirius was a Hogwarts student, he presumably knows
that.  This is one of the reasons why I see this attack as so
gratuitous.

Back in post 47541, Clicketykeys said:
> You don't take a post guarding something without the
> understanding that you might run into
> trouble. Occupational hazards, you might say

Oh my, I find this a bit alarming.  Back in college, I had a job very
similar to the Fat Lady's (same physique, too...hmmm.)  I'd sit at my
dorm's front desk, checking ID's and signing guests in and out.  I
never thought that I had volunteered to let people attack me!  I
didn't even get hazard pay. (Just minimum wage.)  I don't think the
Fat Lady had reason to think her job was dangerous (and even if she
did, that hardly excuses anyone who attacks her.) She's more like a
chaperone, making sure the students don't say out all night, keeping
the Slytherins from sneaking in and short-sheeting the beds, etc. 

  

Ok, for those of you convinced that the Fat Lady is non-sentient,
there's some other issues. 

Ashfae noted:
> Sirius himself nearly strangles Harry in his attempt to 
> get to Peter. Killing Peter is more important to
> him than protecting Harry.

Michelle said:
> Lupin is supposed to be Sirius' friend and not [only] does the
prank 
> expose Lupin's truth to Snape, but it puts him in danger of 
> unintentionally becoming a murderer or inflicting the werewolf
curse 
> on someone, and it also puts him in physical danger too...
> with friends like these who need enemies?

Rebecca said:
> What about terrorizing the Fat Lady, or scaring Ron.  
> Yes, he had > other motives, but he did frighten them.  
> Even to the point when Ron stood and said that Sirius'd 
> have to go through him to get to Harry.
> ...[Sirius] doesn't think about all the people
> he hurts along the way.  He just doesn't seem to care
> about anything but his own agenda; everyone and
> everything else can just go to hell.

Hey, where were all of you back when we were discussing
Sociopath!Sirius?  ;-) 

I think there's two ways of viewing Sirius.  One view looks at his
deep remorse over the Potters' deaths, and concludes that he's a
caring person who takes responsibility -- perhaps too much
responsibility -- for his actions.  In this view, if Sirius doesn't
show remorse for an action, either he did nothing wrong (e.g., Snape
had been awful and deserved to die, or perhaps Snape was really in no
danger), or the circumstances simply have prevented him from
exhibiting his remorse so far (e.g., in the Shack, he had no chnace to
apologize.) 

I have a different view.  I think Sirius cares about a few people
(mainly the Potters.)  He feels bad when something bad happens to
them.  But, as for people outside this small circle, well, as Rebecca
said, he feels they can just go to hell. If he's feeling especially
angry, then the circle of those he cares about shrinks to nothing
(e.g., he chokes Harry.)  I think this view is the most consistent
with the evidence about Sirius that we've been shown so far, but I
think the first view has not been ruled out, and is quite possibly the
one JKR intends.

-- Judy Serenity