Sirius [does] need remorse [and Snape, too!]

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 47771

Dicentra, Sirius Apologist, wrote:

> Consider the following:
> 
> When Snape entered Hogwarts, he knew more curses than most 7th years.
>  He was *not* someone you messed with; Sirius would know that.  Sirius
> would have assumed that Snape would go into the tunnel armed--if he
> went at all--and therefore could have defended himself against
> Wolf!Lupin.  From his perspective, he wasn't sending anyone to his
> death.  In all likelihood, he wasn't, but Snape makes it out to be
> that way (which makes an interesting case for his life-debt to James:
> it's more manufactured than real).
> 

I agree that Sirius was thoughtless and reckless, and had no intent to kill Snape, and that Snape still has not accepted this explanation for his behavior.  But I believe the text indicates very clearly that Snape could have died; it is Dumbledore himself who tells Harry at the end of PS/SS that James "saved his life."
Surely Snape wasn't entering the tunnel with the expectation of encountering a werewolf, and he therefore was likely unprepared to defend himself against one, even if he had his wand at the ready.  And Lupin points out in the Shrieking Shack that James saved Snape "at great risk to his life" and he knew that there was a werewolf in the tunnel.

> Sneaking around trying to get MWPP expelled is not as insignificant as
> most people make it out to be.  Getting expelled from Hogwarts means
> that you never become a fully qualified wizard, so any good employment
> opportunities evaporate.  Considering that Lupin was going to have a
> hard enough time getting a job as a werewolf, preventing him from
> becoming a fully qualified wizard would sentence him to a terribly
> desolate future (yeah, worse than he has it now). 

Doesn't this reflect a very narrow point of view on Sirius' part?  Because, the fact is, by roaming the grounds and the village as Animagi with Wolf!Lupin in tow, MWPP were already doing something that could get Lupin (and Sirius, too) expelled.  In the Shrieking Shack Lupin acknowledges his guilt about how dangerous their activities were.  The real problem is that Sirius was worried that Snape was on their trail.  

Judyserenity suggested that:

> I don't think MWPP were in any danger of expulsion.  Snape can't get
> anyone expelled even as a professor, so he had no hope of getting
> anyone expelled back when he was just a student. Dumbledore doesn't
> believe in expelling anyone, not even half-giants whose pets
> apparently murder students.  All Snape could have done was cost MWPP
> some points or a few detentions. Did MWPP know that they were in no
> risk of expulsion?  They should have, what with Dumbledore going
> around twinkling all the time. And Sirius just says that Snape was
> *hoping* to get them expelled, not that Snape was likely to suceed.
> 
> 
Judy is correct that expulsion is very rare.  Certainly Snape's frequent threats of expulsion aren't meant to be taken as seriously as Harry takes them.  But I believe that the threat of expulsion for certain offenses is real.  Dumbledore seems very serious about the possibility of expelling Harry and Ron after the Flying Ford Anglia episode, and I think the reason is that they were seen by so many Muggles that the escapade could have legitimately threatened the secrecy of the WW that the MoM works so hard to maintain.  Hagrid was expelled for causing the death of another student, and Hagrid's subsequent history speaks to the dreadful consequences of expulsion that Dicentra has identified.  (Dumbledore kept him on, IMO, not because he doesn't believe in expulsion in appropriate circumstances, but because he believed Hagrid had been framed.)

What MWPP were doing was potentially life-threatening to others, so it was an offense that might have justified expulsion.  However, since most offenses don't result in expulsion, I doubt Snape really believed he would catch MWPP doing anything dangerous or otherwise expulsion-worthy; he just (IMO) wanted MWPP to get in trouble to increase his own stature.  

 Sirius was
> justifiably angered by the fact that Snape was hell-bent on ruining
> Lupin's (and his, James's and Peter's) life.  

Why is Sirius "justifiably" angry that Snape was sneaking around trying to get them in trouble when their actions were much more reprehensible than Snape likely suspected?  He's angry because Snape might find out that they really were pushing the boundaries of expulsion.  Perhaps my problem here is that I don't think anything *justified* what MWPP were doing in the first place.  They were behaving recklessly, or perhaps they enjoyed tempting fate, as the fact that they laughed about their near misses later suggests. The very fact that they were out adventuring was something that, IMO, they should have felt remorse for -- and I think Lupin does show some remorse for it -- but there's no evidence that Sirius sees it that way.  As "leaders of their little gang" I get the impression that James and Sirius were the inspiration behind the adventures and that Lupin was so grateful (if not desperate) for their friendship and company that he dared not voice any objections.
> 
> Snape can read a lunar chart as well as anyone else; he must have
> suspected the truth about Lupin.  Why didn't he go ahead and tattle
> instead of hounding MWPP?
> 
I don't think Snape had any real expectation that they would be expelled, because I don't think he had any idea Lupin was a werewolf, and therefore he wouldn't have known that their sneaking around would be so dangerous.  (Sneaking around the grounds and the village is not, by itself, an expulsion-worthy offense or else the Twins would be long gone from Hogwarts.)  Given how werewolves are viewed in the WW, Lupin's own assumption that his condition would preclude him from attending Hogwarts, and the secrecy he was obligated to operate under, I think Snape assumed, like most others, that werewolves were not permitted to attend.

As for why Snape didn't tattle after the Prank, I think that's a matter between Snape and Dumbledore, but that it was a source of tension between them.

> Furthermore, the exchange between Snape and Dumbledore at the end of
> PoA indicates that Snape's perception of the incident is not the same
> as Dumbledore's. [snip] I don't think Dumbledore saw it as attempted murder.  

I agree with this completely.  I don't see anything in the text suggests that Sirius intended to do anything more than scare Snape.  But he still seems to think that "it served him right."  And that really bothers me.
> 
> We already know that
> Sirius is capable of tremendous remorse: if he's not feeling
> remorseful about the Pr*nk, maybe it's because he doesn't need to.
> 
I think the text of PoA contains subtle suggestions that the Prank is something worthy of remorse.  Lupin tries to be very careful and tactful in how he describes the incident to the Trio ("Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do . . . .")  But Sirius is incapable, at this point, of feeling remorse for his enemies.

I agree with what Judyserenity wrote:

I think Sirius cares about a few people
> (mainly the Potters.)  He feels bad when something bad happens to
> them.  But, as for people outside this small circle, well, as Rebecca
> said, he feels they can just go to hell. If he's feeling especially
> angry, then the circle of those he cares about shrinks to nothing
> (e.g., he chokes Harry.)  I think this view is the most consistent
> with the evidence about Sirius that we've been shown so far, but I
> think the first view has not been ruled out, and is quite possibly the
> one JKR intends.
> 
Back in August, a great deal of time was devoted to the question of whether the Twins were bullies (beginning with #43024), and I was struck by many similarities between their actions and Sirius.  I'm not going to suggest that Sirius was a bully, because we simply don't have sufficient evidence.  Other than a few remarks and the Prank, we have no idea how he treated Snape, or anyone else outside his circle, at Hogwarts, though the remarks of McGonagall and Hagrid in The Three Broomsticks in PoA do suggest that James and Sirius were engaging in pranks in the Gred-and-Forge mode. However, Sirius' attitude toward Snape does call to mind the "team" analysis from the bully thread.  

Sirius is intensely loyal to his team.  His tragic mistake in delegating the Secret-Keeper role caused the death of two members of his team.  It was devastating, and his remorse over James and Lily's deaths and efforts -- at great personal risk -- to make it up to Harry are both sympathetic and touching.  

However, he has never been able to see Snape in any role other than "enemy" attempting to thwart *his* team's activities. Therefore, there is no need in Sirius' mind for him to show remorse toward Snape. While Snape was literally the enemy while with the DEs, presumably he was not a DE at Hogwarts (and Sirius states in Padfoot Returns that he has no knowledge of Snape's DE past).  

I think the handshake at the end of GoF supports the "team" analysis of Sirius.  Dumbledore pointedly appeals to Sirius' team mentality by telling him, "You are on the same side now."  By using this phrase, Dumbledore hints strongly that remorse, much less an apology, is too much to hope for given the current state of affairs.  

I also suspect, like Judy, that JKR intends to portray Sirius as a sympathetic character.  I think JKR herself prizes loyalty (as well as bravery) as one of the highest virtues, and it shows in her treatment of Sirius (as well as the Twins).  However, the mutual hatred between Sirius and Snape is not productive -- regardless of its cause -- and, IMO, not an admirable character trait of either of them.  I do believe, however, that she intends for us to understand what I see as the darker side of Sirius' intense loyalty and support for Harry, just as I suspect she intends for us to see the complexities in Snape's attitudes toward Harry.  

I think Snape and Sirius could both use a little dose of remorse.

Debbie
Not a Sirius Apologist (but at least I don't think he's evil anymore!)


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